# CE/CW..What it means for Apprentices and JW's



## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

I've heard the talk but I still don't know the truth about the CE/CW classifications.

My local has had a "B" card for a long time, those men do small works jobs. Jobs under a certain amount of money, small school work, some residential and condominium work. 

I'm not sure where the CE/CW classification would fit in here.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

A guy I go riding with will not hire a JW out of the hall, all he hires are IJ (they recently got changed to the terms CE/CW. He does it because they are so much cheaper than a regular JW. 

You really need to be concerned with the way things are with your local. A few years back they came up with a "new book" that was supposed to be a little less pay for a JW, but it was intended to capture the small TI projects that were currently being done by the non-union. No one has ever been called off that book from what I have been told. The majority of your contractors do not want the small stuff, and they will not bid it. They would rather make 3% profit off of a $6 million job, than to make 30% off of a $12000 job. 

I am sure your BM mentioned FL and TX in his little speech. Some of the lowest wages in the country by the way. With no work in your local, guys are gonna get stuck in the CE/CW program and are not gonna be able to get hours to become a JW. They will go non-union. I can not see any reason a guy would want to be a CE/CW. Take a test. Pass. Move on. Why put yourself in limbo. 

With over 1000 on your books right now, how bad do you think it is gonna be, when Morrow-Meadows starts calling for nothing but CE's? What ever rules are set up in place, you know the big guys are gonna be allowed to break them. Look at how the summer helper program was exploited.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Look at how the summer helper program was exploited.[/quote]

I watched the show, "LA Hardhats" last year and most of the guys on the job were summer helpers. Are you referring to a situation like this?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Control Freak said:


> Look at how the summer helper program was exploited.


I watched the show, "LA Hardhats" last year and most of the guys on the job were summer helpers. Are you referring to a situation like this?[/quote]

Yup, video proof. That project was ran with supervision and a ton of "helpers". Sounds kind of like the way non-union jobs are described around here.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> A
> 
> I am sure your BM mentioned FL and TX in his little speech. Some of the lowest wages in the country by the way.


Also some of the less expensive places to live. There is a correlation between pay and cost of living.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

We have had the CE/CW thing here for several years now. When it came up there was lots of stink about it. 

I heard first the descrition of the idea from the organizer, it was good and makes sense. Get more people from outside the union in and not just hire new apprentices off of the street and expand the pool of electricians. There is a limited amount of work, even in good times.

Practically speaking, we have seen several contractors that use the program, and some that don't. I am hearing that apprentices go out before CW's. The CE's are handled thru the hall and not the apprenticeship here. 

Some of the contractors think there is gold in these other classifications. Lots of union members think it is one of the worst ideas going. Reality is probably in the middle. 

Some of these organized guys are good, some not. A contractor that only looks at payroll numbers will work more of them,and sometimes see less profit as JW's end up fixing mistakes. When there is opportunity for foremen to pay attention to who gets it and who does not, they can be a very effictive tool to lower a composite rate.

Many of the good ones in our area end up testing into the apprenticeship. I think they start out sure they are full fledged electricians, that will make more and not have to go to school. Then many see there is more out there than they have been exposed to, and realize a good way to go further is the program.

My personal opinion is that JW's with the most to worry are not the top JW's. There will always be a need for JW's to do more complex assignments and to surpervise these other classifications. I know where I fit, and I am not concerned about long term job security.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

OP for what it’s worth I tend to hang on to apprentices, but the CE/CW come and go depending on their skill levels and productivity. 

The CE/CW program is not just about cheaper labor its also a way to organize non-union shops that may have a lot of labor that is not quite 100% of what a journeyman should be. Considering the IBEW’s shrinking market share, you would think anything that could grow IBEW would be a good thing right? 

On a Bacon/Davis job CE/CW are pretty worthless, but on everything else they sure help bring my composite rates down, and considering every job I bid these days there are 30+ non-union shops bidding against me and they all use a composite rate that is about 60% of my mine, you need ever advantage you can get. Last week I bid a job and threw in all the j-boxes and conduit for free (I had them in the warehouse), used a composite rate that was 20% less than what I can actually do, and only marked it up 3% and still got beat by $30,000 on a $130,000 job. 

With all due respect CE/CW are the last of your worries right now, and you should be grateful if you even have a job. 

You can buy a 3,000SF house here in TX for $150,000 and if you had more to spend 450K would get you a 5,000SF house with high end finishes, pool, and gated community. If we paid our electricians the same thing they got in NY, the local would be dead in 6 months, in fact the local is dying now with the current rates. When you have something around 7% market share, you don’t set the wages for that market.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

In the North Carolina, the CW & CE program has been used a lot, especially in my home Local, 379, in Charlotte, NC. 

Before we started using it, we had a 3 to 1 JW to App ratio in a largely non-Union state where the typical ratio is around 1 to 7 JW to "helper" in the non-Union shops. 

Our ratio still isn't where it oughta be to REALLY compete, but it is in certain shops. And if you ask these shops about the recession, their typical reply is "What recession?". The shops using the ratio allowed by the "Small Works" addendum are at least holding their own, and a couple are growing. One of the couple is growing like crazy. And the same shop is working more JW's than ever before, due to the large amount of work they have picked up. 

It without a doubt makes Union sigs more competitive, as i have personally witnessed the results. But it takes a STRONG Local to police the program and insure that it is NOT ABUSED. I have friends all over the country, some of which relay horror stories to me about the program being abused, but I have yet to personally witness this myself. Here in Charlotte, our contractors are very close to our Local, and the lines of comminication are always open. 

On the whole, it is a REALLY good program. The only JW's in jeopardy of losing their status are not really JW's... they just cary a ticket that says they are. Being a JW is more than simply completing an apprenticeship program. It is a state of mind, a state of professionalism, and a state of intelligence. A REAL JW has nothing to worry about.

As far as apprentices go, to my understanding, CE's and CW's may not be sent to work so long as apprentices are unemployed. But your agreement may be different. Even if it's not, apprentices still need an aggressive Training Director to ensure that the rules are not broken/abused. Always remember... a "contract violation" is only a contract violation if someone catches it. The contract is blind, deaf, and dumb. It requires HUMAN enforcement. Many members think otherwise, to their own detriment!

Good luck little brother!!!


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

boulengerina said:


> "In the North Carolina, the CW & CE program has been used a lot, especially in my home Local, 379, in Charlotte, NC. "
> 
> "Here in Charlotte, our contractors are very close to our Local, and the lines of comminication are always open. "
> 
> "On the whole, it is a REALLY good program. The only JW's in jeopardy of losing their status are not really JW's... they just cary a ticket that says they are. Being a JW is more than simply completing an apprenticeship program. It is a state of mind, a state of professionalism, and a state of intelligence. A REAL JW has nothing to worry about."


One contractor in 379 refuses to hire anything but CW/CE's. No JW's no apprentices. 

Which shop are you talking about that is growing like crazy?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> One contractor in 379 refuses to hire anything but CW/CE's. No JW's no apprentices.
> 
> Which shop are you talking about that is growing like crazy?


 I think it is Reliable.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

P.elvis and Boulengerina (I had to look 4 times to spell that right)
Nice posts, glad to see outlooks like that out there.:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> A REAL JW has nothing to worry about.


A Real JW where you are, could be a world of difference from a JW where I am.

You see, top notch wages and benefits for electricians here bring in the cream of the crop of the middle class, many already with college degrees.

My apprentice now has a four-year degree, my apprentice before that had two associates, and a four-year. These are people who want to work hard and make good money. The line for applications into the apprenticeship wraps around the block and then some.

Nothing against my southern electrician brothers, but I fail to see how wages in the teens per hour bring in the men with a professional mentality it takes to be a JW.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> One contractor in 379 refuses to hire anything but CW/CE's. No JW's no apprentices.
> 
> Which shop are you talking about that is growing like crazy?


I am afraid that you are quite mistaken. The ratio is a strict 1 to five JW to sub-JW. And it is enforced. All the contractors here have JW's running their work, either as foremen (bigger jobs), or as JW's (smaller jobs).

I'm not sure where you get your info, but the source is feeding you a line....


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Nothing against my southern electrician brothers, but I fail to see how wages in the teens per hour bring in the men with a professional mentality it takes to be a JW.


 
Let me clarify this for you... Our prevailing wage here is around $14.00 per hour, and the typical open shop "JW" here makes about $18.00 with no benefits. 

We do have a hard time attracting good candidates, but the non-Union sector has an even harder time. Any way you look at this, we still have tha advantage, and it's starting to show in our man-hours. Recession be damned, we are holding our own, and every member that wants a job (and can keep it), has one!

And many of our applicants have college degrees as well. If our prevailing wage was , say, $30 per hour, then this would be a different story. 

You need to experience it to understand it. NC and SC are different than ALL the other states, as we have the LOWEST Union densities in the nation. But all of that is changing!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Our prevailing wage here is around $14.00 per hour


Damn. The prevailing wage at In-N-Out Burger is around $14.00 per hour.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

This is just a way to higher cheaper labor. Plain and simple. Good for the employer. Bad for the employee.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Damn. The prevailing wage at In-N-Out Burger is around $14.00 per hour.


Yeah... No kidding. This is a war that we have been fighting for some time. We don't control enough market share here to competently influence the PW. But this is slowly changing.:thumbsup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> This is just a way to higher cheaper labor. Plain and simple. Good for the employer. Bad for the employee.


I would expect this perspective from a brother in Washington State. You have higher Union density and licensing laws that make this kind of program less necessary. So does Mass, WV, and many other states. But until you've worked here and lived here, you will likely not understand. It's not your fault. I've been to Washington, and you guys don't even come close to facing the types of obstacles that we face here. But keep an open mind brother, because the program works where it is needed. My Local is working more JW's then EVER before, and most of our success is due to the CE-CW program. And we aren't abusing workers. CE-CW's still receive pensions, insurance, and representation. They are afforded guaranteed raises. No one is held back here by anything other than their own potential, attitude, and desires to succeed.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> I'm not sure where you get your info, but the source is feeding you a line....


 What gilbequick posted is the word on the street.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

william1978 said:


> What gilbequick posted is the word on the street.


It may well be Reliable that is being referenced... I don't know. But ALL of our shops adhere to a strict 1 to 5 ratio. If a shop had no JW's, then they would obviously have no work, either.

I just love rumors! Especially ridiculous ones such as this! 

The real issue is the ratio. I get the feeling from a lot of guys that the ratio is unfair, and replaces JW's. This is untrue. Without the ratio, we wouldn't have the work in the first place, so I challenge anyone to tell me how this replaces a JW's job, considering there wouldn't even be a job!

It's these types of "entitlement" issues that are destroying the Brotherhood from the inside out! The Chamber and Right to Work for Less Laws are less of an enemy than we are to ourselves! We are "entitled" to NO MORE than the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. We must compete with the non-Union sector, lest we find ourselves irrelevant (and eventually without a Union at all!). We simply can't compete with our traditional 3 JW's to 1 non-JW ratio. It doesn't work. We may not like it, but simple "disdain for reality" changes nothing but your own perspective! Reality remains the same. And the reality here is that for us to remain, prosper as individuals, and grow, we must change WITH reality, and get our heads out of the sand!


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Believe what you will. I know apprentices who were laid off from them, with plenty of work left to do. 1-5 I guarantee you it is not.

I'm not knocking the company or the local. The company is just taking advantage of the system put before it. When local membership is low, you've gotta get the dues $ where you can get it.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> Believe what you will. I know apprentices who were laid off from them, with plenty of work left to do. 1-5 I guarantee you it is not.
> 
> I'm not knocking the company or the local. The company is just taking advantage of the system put before it. When local membership is low, you've gotta get the dues $ where you can get it.



I checked with the Hall yesterday with regards to this situation, and called a guy I know who works there. They are running a 1 to 5 ratio. It is EXACTLY that. 1 to 5. If they hire any more cw's, ce's, or apprentices, they will have to hire another JW. My friend and the Hall had the same story, so I am forced to believe it. My friend certainly would NOT lie to cover for the contractor OR the Hall.

Our membership is now higher than it has ever been, and we have almost 100% employment. 379 is working more A-member JW's than ever before, and we have NO apprentices out of work.

So tell me.... does the ce/cw program work? I think so, if the ratio is enforced and the contractors know how to use it. :thumbsup:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

boulengerina said:


> In the North Carolina, the CW & CE program has been used a lot, especially in my home Local, 379, in Charlotte, NC.
> 
> Before we started using it, we had a 3 to 1 JW to App ratio in a largely non-Union state where the typical ratio is around 1 to 7 JW to "helper" in the non-Union shops.
> 
> ...


This is the same post from another board whats up?


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> This is the same post from another board whats up?


I assure you it is not. It may be similar, but then again, information may be redundant.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

boulengerina said:


> I assure you it is not. It may be similar, but then again, information may be redundant.


I went to lu 440's meeting last week and there was a discussion over the Ce/Cw program(went to lu441's last month) from what I understand every local has a different variation of this program, so it depends on what local you work in as how it would affect the cubs or JWs for that matter. Has anyone heard from Boulengerina since he went back to work?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

When CE/CW comes in, does that mean Market-Recovery goes away? I've seen contractors I worked for rake in money by the FIST FULL off market recovery jobs, isn't that simply buying our contractors??


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> When CE/CW comes in, does that mean Market-Recovery goes away? I've seen contractors I worked for rake in money by the FIST FULL off market recovery jobs, isn't that simply buying our contractors??


 I would say it will depend on the present contract,Bm and his relationship with IO.This is only one of IO's efforts so if you have market recovery this new program will probably just be added to the agenda of allowing more members in easier.It does allow non members a quicker route into the IBEW but in my opinion it will devalue the worth of both the union and nonunion JW.I do think we will see a large increase in membership therefor the market share but I see problems with too many membersfor the available work in 5-8 years. From my experience, market recovery only made the contractor more money.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> I see problems with too many membersfor the available work in 5-8 years.


Member or not, there is not enough work for all the sparks.

Hopefully something unexpected happens to change the tune?

Looks like the markets are headed for the second half of the double dip, artificially stimulated by this unfolding Goldman-Sachs BS. Don't get me wrong, the financial reform needs to take place for long term stability, but the timing of this latest bad news on Wall Street smells funny, as usual.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Member or not, there is not enough work for all the sparks.
> 
> Hopefully something unexpected happens to change the tune?
> 
> Looks like the markets are headed for the second half of the double dip, artificially stimulated by this unfolding Goldman-Sachs BS. Don't get me wrong, the financial reform needs to take place for long term stability, but the timing of this latest bad news on Wall Street smells funny, as usual.


 Search large energy projects in Southern California, you will have to dig but there has been enough work projected and money appropriated (mostly state and federal money) that there will be a shortage of qualified workers in the near future. I do realize how bleak things are right now, I only have a couple of ui checks left. There are 11 Solar projects that MUST start before December 2010 in So-Cal.


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## arson (Jul 11, 2010)

*Where do we stand now?*

I am bumping this thread. Our local in the heartland just instituted the CWCE program before our last contract negs and this week random Joe Blow calls hall comes in signs and goes to work tomorrow at one of the big shops prefabing **** while hitting the books = a year+ off before getting a regular call. That (prefabbing wasn't-only market recover jobs) in the contract until our latest rebargain.. now they can do prefab so it sours me to see them gaining jobs that shop hands use to have... I'm a hired hand so I don't get stay busy at the shop i'm off in the winter when it's slow. 
Seems to me medium shops get all the benefit while the worker now has another person in competition for the job that costs less because one-not an A member and two split scale. Which I understand we need to adapt but how about we adapt by adjusting our wage(worst case) not by undermining our craft and letting CWCE abusing shops ruin the IBEW/Union Label? Because abuse will happen and it will be exploited by anti-union campaigns. I mean we are either union or we aren't not well we are union but we have a split scale so my fear is in 10 years when now we set @ 400 on the oow books and in 10 years with membership up and 1000 on the books and only CWCE and Apprentices working... Why even turnout... how is that pride turning out to no work. 

Open for discussion and I am open minded.


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