# Induction Lighting



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Friend called me about some exterior lighting on a church. The vendor suggested induction lighting. I told them that I knew the techonlogy was out there but I did not know enough about it to talk about it. I told them that the fixtures were very expensive and that the bulbs lasted a long time. I also read some time back that someone had put a bunch of induction fixtures in and in about 6 months all the fixtures had failed but that was a couple of years ago.
What is the latest on induction lighting ? 

Thanks LC


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*cost of light*

It is the most cost effective light out there especially when maintainance cost are dramatic..I install them all over the place


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

High $$$ fixtures and bulbs, but are supposed to last years.

We have one customer who had them installed in the ceiling of a large auditorium. Now that several years have passed, some of the ballasts are going bad, but the bulbs are still good (go figure!)....


----------



## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

It all depends on manufacture I have installed quite a few of them but have also have had lamps and ballast fail within the first 2 yrs they covered under warrenty but your labor is not. But I still think it is an unproven technology that's just my opion. They are still cheaper than led and use less energy then HPS or MH. But I would go for LED more money but more of a proven technology.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*prove*



ElectricZombie said:


> It all depends on manufacture I have installed quite a few of them but have also have had lamps and ballast fail within the first 2 yrs they covered under warrenty but your labor is not. But I still think it is an unproven technology that's just my opion. They are still cheaper than led and use less energy then HPS or MH. But I would go for LED more money but more of a proven technology.


You have that backwards. Induction is much more of a proven technology than LED. It started in early 1900's with Tesla, I think Osram patented it in 80's and it's been used in military and asia for at least 20+ years


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*More*

More 

History

Nikola Tesla demonstrated wired and wireless transfer of power to electrodeless *fluorescent and incandescent lamps *in his lectures and articles in the *1890s*, and subsequently patented a system of light and power distribution on those principles. In the lecture before the AIEE, May 20, 1891, titled Experiments with Alternating Currents of Very High Frequency and Their Application to Methods of Artificial Illumination [1] and US patent 454622, among many other references in the technical and popular press are found countless records for Tesla's priority in this field. A suit filed by Tesla against J. J. Thomson for priority on the patent was subsequently granted in Tesla's favor. As of 2011, the transcripts of the case languish in archives, awaiting processing, and eventual publishing. Noting the diagrams in Tesla's lectures and patents, a striking similarity of construction to electrodeless lamps that are available on the market currently is readily apparent. Further, a statement in 1929 by Tesla, published in The World:
Surely, my system is more important than the incandescent lamp, which is but one of the known electric illuminating devices and admittedly not the best. Although greatly improved through chemical and metallurgical advances and skill of artisans it is still inefficient, and the glaring filament emits hurtful rays responsible for millions of bald heads and spoiled eyes. In my opinion, it will soon be superseded by the electrodeless vacuum tube which I brought out thirty-eight years ago, a lamp much more economical and yielding a light of indescribable beauty and softness.


Example of a round *150W Magnetic Induction lamp
In 1967 and 1968, John Anderson of General Electric [2] [3] applied for patents for electrodeless lamps.* *Philips introduced their QL induction lighting systems, operating at 2.65 MHz, in 1990 in Europe *and in 1992 in the US. Matsu****a had induction light systems available in 1992. Intersource Technologies also announced one in 1992, called the E-lamp. Operating at 13.6 MHz, it was to be available on the US market in 1993.
In 1990, Michael Ury, Charles Wood and colleagues, formulated the concept of the sulphur lamp. With support from the United States Department of Energy, it was further developed in 1994 by Fusion Lighting of Rockville, Maryland, a spinoff of the Fusion UV division of Fusion Systems Corporation. Its origins are in microwave discharge light sources used for ultraviolet curing in the semiconductor and printing industries.
*Since 1994, General Electric has produced its induction lamp Genura with an integrated ballast, operating at 2.65 MHz. *In 1996, Osram started selling their Endura induction light system, operating at 250 kHz. It is available in the US as the Sylvania Icetron. In 1997 PQL Lighting Introduced in the US the Superior Life Brand Induction Lighting Systems. Most induction lighting systems are rated for 100,000 hours of use before requiring absolute component replacements.
*Since 2005, Amko Solara in Taiwan introduced induction lamps that can dim and use IP based controls. Their lamps have a range from 12 to 400 watts and operate at 250 kHz.*
From 1995, the former distributors of Fusion, Jenton / Jenact, expanded on the fact that energised UV-emitting plasmas act as lossy conductors to create a number of patents regarding electrodeless UV lamps for sterilising and germicidal uses.
Around 2000 a system was developed that concentrated radio frequency waves into a solid dielectric waveguide made of ceramic which energized a light emitting plasma in a bulb positioned inside. This system, for the first time, permitted an extremely bright and compact electrodeless lamps. The invention has been a matter of dispute. Claimed by Frederick Espiau (then of Luxim now of Topanga Technologies), Chandrashekhar Joshi and Yian Chang, these claims were disputed by Ceravision Limited.[4] Recently a number of the core patents were assigned to Ceravision.[5][6]
In 2006 Luxim introduced a projector lamp product trade-named LIFI. The company further extended the technology with light source products in instrument, entertainment, street, area and architectural lighting applications among others throughout 2007 and 2008.
In 2009 Ceravision Limited introduced the first High Efficiency Plasma (HEP) lamp under the trade name Alvara. This lamp replaces the opaque ceramic waveguide used in earlier lamps with an optically clear quartz waveguide giving greatly increased efficiency. In previous lamps, though the burner, or bulb, was very efficient, the opaque ceramic waveguide severely obstructed the collection of light. A quartz waveguide allows all of the light from the plasma to be collected.
In 2012 Topanga Technologies introduced microwave quartz plasma lamps,[7] driven by a solid state RF driver, thereby circumventing the limited life of magnetron based drivers, with system power of 127 and 230 Watts and system efficacies of 96 and 87 lumen/Watt, albeit with relative low CRI of 70.
[edit]


----------



## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

Great info but still think LED is still more of a proven lighting technology then Induction. Just look what is out on the market granted induction is out there but there is a way more LED available. Again I am not tesla and this is just my opion.


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

The first time I heard of induction lighting was when a industrial lighting salesman came in and did a dog and poney show about them. He said that they were ideal fof lighting in difficult and hard to reach areas. He said that you could put one in on your first day of apprenticeship and it would last until you retire. 
Sounds like a whole lot of hype and wishful thinking to me.

LC


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Sounds like a whole lot of hype and wishful thinking to me.
> 
> LC


It's not. 

Induction has twice the life of LED, and is Half the cost.
The ONLY advantage LED has over Induction is the lack of UV light provided by the LED, which translates into LESS bugs being attracted to, and flying around the light.

If the lights are failing, it's because you bought a cheap manufacturer, or you installed it wrong. 
Unless you physically break an Induction bulb, it will damn near last forever. It is a sealed bulb, with no electrodes inside. The only pieces that can fail are the driver(ballast) or the power couplings. The power couplings, from the right manufacturer are made like tanks, and baring a total catastrophe, can't fail. 

It all depends how much homework you put into this, and whether you're buying cheap crap like Tunga, Nuevue, Global, or others.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

ElectricZombie said:


> Great info but still think LED is still more of a proven lighting technology then Induction.


Care to share how?


----------



## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

Well if induction lighting has been around for so long and it is such a great technology? Then why is it not all over the place? and why is it not in all the supply houses and big box stores? You would think that if it was so great everyone would be useing it? But sence it is not 100% proven to be used in all the application we use it, then that's why it not around like LED. Again I am no Telsa just my opinion.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

ElectricZombie said:


> Well if induction lighting has been around for so long and it is such a great technology? Then why is it not all over the place?


Actually, it is in more places than you think. You just haven't seen or heard about it.



ElectricZombie said:


> and why is it not in all the supply houses and big box stores?


Induction is most used in commercial applications, and outdoor lighting.



ElectricZombie said:


> You would think that if it was so great everyone would be useing it? But sence it is not 100% proven to be used in all the application we use it,


Actually, that is false also. It is proven, and works just fine. I have had no problems when using the right manufacturers under the proper conditions.
You won't find Induction used too much in hot areas. Then again, LED is bad in those applications also.



ElectricZombie said:


> then that's why it not around like LED. Again I am no Telsa just my opinion.


You're not alone. There are millions of people who like LED, just cause it's new, hip, and no-one can tell them otherwise. You have a right to waste your money. I won't stop you.

All said, Induction has it's applications and limitations, same with LED.

Induction is rated for twice the life of LED, and costs half as much.....

I like it for what I use it for.


----------



## jpozak (Jun 7, 2010)

You have to remember the companies that sold induction in the past was GE and Phillips who want you to buy HID products that last 1/6th as long as their Induction products like the Icetron and QL. So they priced the induction 6 times more expensive and sold them to explosion proof fixture and such. Induction has been used for years in off shore oil platforms and other hazardous and hard to reach areas.

Till a LED came a long a few years ago and got everyone thinking there is a better way Phillips and GE were able to keep induction a secret but the cat is out of the bag now!

We sale a lot of induction to parking garages and warehouses. 

Dnkldorf is right Stay away from the crap out there and make sure you source from a good vendor that will not be in the wind on a year. That is a huge problem for LED's right now, there a dude on every corner in China selling LED's and pumping out crap. Induction is not that bad...yet.


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> ...If the lights are failing, it's because you bought a cheap manufacturer, or you installed it wrong....
> 
> It all depends how much homework you put into this, and whether you're buying cheap crap like Tunga, Nuevue, Global, or others.


I disagree.

How about cheap crap like OSRAM/Sylvania?

It wasn't cheap, but those ballasts are failing after 5 years anyways .... (Hmmm, that's their warranty duration, isn't it???)


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> I disagree.
> 
> How about cheap crap like OSRAM/Sylvania?
> 
> It wasn't cheap, but those ballasts are failing after 5 years anyways .... (Hmmm, that's their warranty duration, isn't it???)



Please share. I was under the impression that Icetron were the cats meow...


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

They suck, poor dim lighting quality compared to HPS and MH. The street lighting out here is turning to 80 watt Induction from 150 HPS. definetly half the light lumens.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

ElectricZombie said:


> Great info but still think LED is still more of a proven lighting technology then Induction. Just look what is out on the market granted induction is out there but there is a way more LED available. Again I am not tesla and this is just my opion.


Just curious about lumen maintenance on LED vs. Induction. I attended a seminar on induction lighting and if I remember correctly, that was one of the selling points of induction lighting.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Our big local supermarket is finishing up an extensive remodel which included replacing all the old high pressure sodium parking lot lights and wall packs. What did they replace them with? You got it! Brand spanking new, straight from the factory.... high pressure sodium lights! :001_huh:


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*more*

Induction lighting is now being recognized as a truly long life lamp with real world energy saving potentials higher than LED. It is *50% more efficient *than CFL’s, and cuts energy usage of traditional lamps like mercury vapor and high pressure sodium by half or more. Its tested lifespan of over 30,000 hours makes it a reliable solution for hard-to-maintain areas. With a rated lifespan of 60,000 hours, it is also a very environmentally friendly solution that symbolizes reduction, recycle, and reuse.

Most presently available commercial *LED lighting fixtures* have conversion efficiencies in the *35 to 55 Lumens/Watt (L/W)* range. LED elements with a *conversion efficiency of 70 L/W* are available, but still quite expensive. There are reports of LEDs with conversion efficiencies of up to 100 L/W operating in research labs, but they are not yet commercially available.
Induction lamps have a conversion efficiency ranging from *65 L/W in low wattage (8 ~ 20 W internal inductor types) to 82 L/W in the high wattage (250 ~ 400 W external inductor models) range.* Ongoing research will see some small improvements in these numbers. When considering commercial/industrial lighting and using a *200 W fixture as an example, the induction lamp version will produce 16,000 Lumens while an LED version would only produce 11,000 Lumens (about 31% less light) with the same energy input.*
Since the most powerful single element LEDs available at this time are in the 20 ~ 25W range, to make a 200W fixture, an array of LED elements must be used. This adds to the expense of the fixture since the cost of these more powerful LEDs is presently quite high and they require custom heat-sinks for thermal management. Since* induction lamps use well established and mature glass molding and coating technology with electronic ballasts (similar to fluorescent lamp technology), manufacturing costs are lower and yields higher than LEDs at this time.* Typically an induction lamps fixture will less *cost 50% to 75% than a similar output LED based fixture.* This cost gap will be erased over time as LED production ramps up since sold-state devices are more amenable to cost reduction through mass manufacturing techniques.


----------



## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

http://www.lightingwizards.com/Downloads/LED_vs_Induction_Streetlights.pdf


----------



## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/EHID_LED.pdf


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Please share. I was under the impression that Icetron were the cats meow...


So was I.

New multi-plex movie house, built in 2006. 16 auditoriums. They used induction lights for the cleaning/emergency lights, since the ceilings are over 30 feet up, and bulb replacement requires one to build a scaffolding since they are located over seating areas. 

It's impossible to use a ladder or a lift over those rows of seats.

About 5 years later, several of them have failed. 

At first, I thought it was bad bulbs, since that would be an acceptable amount of time to pass for a "lamp" to wear out. We did an extensive remodel (RPX conversion) in one of the auditoriums, so we had the seats removed, and was able to access one of the bad lights with a lift. I did a bulb swap with a working fixture and determined that the ballast was bad, not the bulb.

277 Volts in, nothing out.

Ordered and replaced the offending ballast, and it works again, using the SAME BULB as before!

There are several other of these lights that are out, and I believe that all of `em will require new ballasts, not new bulbs.

They are name brand Sylvania/OSRAM Icetron units.

No better than the other electronic junk ballasts out there, with approx a five-year life span, IMO.


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I want to thank everyone that has replied so far. I told the individual who ask the question of me how to follow the thread so they are following it too.

Thanks again

LC


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Friend called me about some exterior lighting on a church. The vendor suggested induction lighting. I told them that I knew the techonlogy was out there but I did not know enough about it to talk about it. I told them that the fixtures were very expensive and that the bulbs lasted a long time. I also read some time back that someone had put a bunch of induction fixtures in and in about 6 months all the fixtures had failed but that was a couple of years ago.
> What is the latest on induction lighting ?
> 
> Thanks LC


I gotta say that I have never heard of INDUCTION lighting...per say, but all that I have dealt with were transformer...auto type. Maybe it is something new.


----------



## jpozak (Jun 7, 2010)

Induction is not new. It has been around for MANY years and is Nicola Tesla invention.
Good Information can be found all over the web and on our website Innovative Induction Lighting. 

I would like to learn more about the install and wattage of the induction lights in the theater. I would like to know if the ballast are protected in a ballast box or open.

The Icetron products are very high quality and I am very surprised to see numerous failures. You should contact Sylvania/OSRAM and have them check the ballast numbers to see if they have had multiple failures.

What is the wattage of the lamp?


----------



## Jabberwoky (Sep 2, 2012)

I keep hearing about the low replacement rate and maintenance cost of induction lighting as well. This new plant I'm working at has induction for all their ceiling fixtures. I'd say roughly 500 lights.

My question is that if they last so long why is there records in our parts dept of buying enough new bulbs every 3 years to replace them all? Wouldn't flourescent or LEDs last at least 3 years.

I'm thinking these fixtures can't be 6 or 7 years old due to the change in replacement model numbers. At least the ballast lasts a long time I don't see orders for more than 5 or 6 ballast.

I'm seeing a lot of suppliers with warranties for 5 years for their LED bulbs and no ballast needed.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Jabberwoky said:


> I keep hearing about the low replacement rate and maintenance cost of induction lighting as well. This new plant I'm working at has induction for all their ceiling fixtures. I'd say roughly 500 lights.
> 
> My question is that if they last so long why is there records in our parts dept of buying enough new bulbs every 3 years to replace them all? Wouldn't flourescent or LEDs last at least 3 years.


I'm not sure why your maintenance dept is buying so many Induction bulbs only. Are there records of them being installed, and what fixtures required them? A plant would keep a log book of this, for maintenance tracking purposes. It may of been a batch of bad coils, and not the bulb itself. Induction bulbs are sealed. The only way they can go bad, it to break, or end of life. 



Jabberwoky said:


> I'm thinking these fixtures can't be 6 or 7 years old due to the change in replacement model numbers. At least the ballast lasts a long time I don't see orders for more than 5 or 6 ballast.
> 
> I'm seeing a lot of suppliers with warranties for 5 years for their LED bulbs and no ballast needed.


Led's and Induction don't use "ballasts". They use drivers. In the Induction case, the driver output is 250khz, and I've seen 1Mhz on some. Led drivers come in constant current, and constant voltage flavors. This depends on the LED chip being used, and it's configuration and design. 

The key to a LED driver is the amount of built in surge protection. IMO


----------



## Steven Rothschild (Nov 7, 2012)

*Induction is worth the cost in hard to worth locations*



Lone Crapshooter said:


> Friend called me about some exterior lighting on a church. The vendor suggested induction lighting. I told them that I knew the techonlogy was out there but I did not know enough about it to talk about it. I told them that the fixtures were very expensive and that the bulbs lasted a long time. I also read some time back that someone had put a bunch of induction fixtures in and in about 6 months all the fixtures had failed but that was a couple of years ago.
> What is the latest on induction lighting ?
> 
> Thanks LC


If the location is hard to service, induction if it is quality is worth the money. It is lower priced than LED and lasts twice as long. Be sure to buy quality. It matters. Also, average life is 100,000 hours but that does not mean there is not infant mortality. It means at 100k hours 50% will still be working. To read more about induction check out the following link.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey Dnkldorf, can you give us some examples of fixtures and pricing? maybe a wall pack, shoebox and some type of indoor.
It seems like everytime I read one of these threads I approach my supply house and they talk me out of it. I have a design build project in the works that I may be able to incorporate some induction but I just can't seem to get it done.
Thanks


----------



## Steven Rothschild (Nov 7, 2012)

*Induction Pricing*

As requested here are some examples. Call for exact pricing as some of the prices are going down.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> The first time I heard of induction lighting was when a industrial lighting salesman came in and did a dog and poney show about them. He said that they were ideal fof lighting in difficult and hard to reach areas. He said that you could put one in on your first day of apprenticeship and it would last until you retire.
> Sounds like a whole lot of hype and wishful thinking to me.
> 
> LC


Picture a Circline made in a donut without any electrodes. Now put it in the microwave to light it up. That's the whole idea behind induction light. 

In application, the lamps are very high energy density CFL. The lamps run hot and comparable to exterior bulb of an MH. The glass tube uses amalgam type design so they can run at high temperature and hold a steady Hg pressure inside.

T8s lose like 6-8% over life, but they run at less than a watt/inch.

Think of them as CFLs that don't burn out and keep on going. Phosphor coating keeps decaying. Induction loses something like 40-50% over life, comparable to traditional MH.

Induction for hard to maintain area is great if... and only if... you can get them to agree to parts and *labor *allowance for premature failures and they're not some start up company offering warranty duration that's three times longer than they've existed thus far.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

BS on the lumen maintenance. Here's something I gathered from Sylvania data:

Sega wishes the exponential decay was on the tail end of the life, but reality is that its on the front end.

85%@10k hrs (which is similar to CFL's decay curve) 
80%@20k hrs
75%@ 40k
70%@ 60K 
67%@ 80K
64%@100K

From Sylvania's data, system efficacy (ballast and lamp, not counting fixture efficiency) is about 75 lm/W. So after 20,000 hours of use, you're already down to 60lm/W.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Picture a Circline made in a donut without any electrodes. Now put it in the microwave to light it up. That's the whole idea behind induction light.
> 
> In application, the lamps are very high energy density CFL. The lamps run hot and comparable to exterior bulb of an MH. The glass tube uses amalgam type design so they can run at high temperature and hold a steady Hg pressure inside.


No they don't. The Induction bulbs run way cooler than MH. A fully operational Induction bulb, will not burn your hands if you touch it. 
If I had to guess right now, I'd say an Induction bulb runs 2-300 degress less than a MH. MH are hot as hell when they burn.




Electric_Light said:


> Think of them as CFLs that don't burn out and keep on going. Phosphor coating keeps decaying. Induction loses something like 40-50% over life, comparable to traditional MH.


What? 




Electric_Light said:


> and they're not some start up company offering warranty duration that's three times longer than they've existed thus far.


This is the only thing you've written that I agree with.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Hey Dnkldorf, can you give us some examples of fixtures and pricing? maybe a wall pack, shoebox and some type of indoor.


100W wallpacks.......about $300.
100W flood $275
150W Shoebox floods $350

I haven't tried Induction Highbay or low bays yet. I use all T-8 for these.





sbrn33 said:


> It seems like everytime I read one of these threads I approach my supply house and they talk me out of it.


It's becuase they don't chit about them, or they are trying to push their line of LED which only get about 57 lumen/watt. Supply house people are idiots. 



sbrn33 said:


> I have a design build project in the works that I may be able to incorporate some induction but I just can't seem to get it done.
> Thanks


Pm me, I'll help you out if I can.

FWIW, there are a bunch of Induction manufacturers to stay away from. they are junk or lack support.
Like Tungda, NuVue, Fulham, Global Induction...ect.

It's like anything, you get what you pay for.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> No they don't. The Induction bulbs run way cooler than MH. A fully operational Induction bulb, will not burn your hands if you touch it.
> If I had to guess right now, I'd say an Induction bulb runs 2-300 degress less than a MH. MH are hot as hell when they burn.


I'm talking about the outer-bulb, not the arc-capsule within the HID. 
Of course induction gets hot. When you pump 150W into a lamp, where do you think the energy is going to go? Cathode drop is only a small part of loss in fluorescent lamps. It's like a 150W CFL, and we all know even CFLs get super hot to touch. 

Have a look at this. Amalgam tip is setup as a "cold finger" and its designed with the cold finger running at 60-120C, blistering hot at the latter end. The lamp wall will have a higher temperature than the amalgam tip and Sylvania Icetron induction is rated at up to 150C wall temperature. 

Amalgam is used in some CFLs and high output lamps so mercury pressure can be maintained. 

http://www.elightbulbs.com/pdfs/sylvania/Sylvania-Icetron.pdf

"induction" works exactly the same way as a fluorescent lamp. It's a marketing buzzwordfor RF energy excited electrodeless compact fluorescent lamp.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> What?


Output of induction drops in the same manner as CFLs. CFLs too lose their output in a similar curve. The early stage decay is fairly steep in high energy density CFLs. 

Stretch out a 32W CFL and you'll find the interior surface area is much smaller than a T8 and it gets much higher watts per square inch of UV which increases the rate of phosphor degradation.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> They are name brand Sylvania/OSRAM Icetron units.
> 
> No better than the other electronic junk ballasts out there, with approx a five-year life span, IMO.


The driver is more or less the same as normal fluorescent electroded ballasts. Line voltage is rectified and converted to high frequency AC. Regular ballasts then feed this to lamps directly. Induction feed this into a coil, which then excites the mercury vapor. 

The Icetron runs at 200-300KHz as do many electrodeless fluorescent lamps colloquially known as "induction". Regular ballast for electrode fluorescent lamps run at 20-100kHz. The frequency is chosen to avoid interference with infrared remotes, theft detection system and what not. 

Average life of ballast is all about the case temperature. If the ballast doesn't get adequate cooling, its life will suffer. Every 10°C increase in case temp. halves the life. 

It doesn't give any resistance over regular fluorescent to ballast failure.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> I'm talking about the outer-bulb, not the arc-capsule within the HID.
> Of course induction gets hot. When you pump 150W into a lamp, where do you think the energy is going to go? Cathode drop is only a small part of loss in fluorescent lamps. It's like a 150W CFL, and we all know even CFLs get super hot to touch.
> 
> Have a look at this. Amalgam tip is setup as a "cold finger" and its designed with the cold finger running at 60-120C, blistering hot at the latter end. The lamp wall will have a higher temperature than the amalgam tip and Sylvania Icetron induction is rated at up to 150C wall temperature.
> ...




You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Induction lights. You should leave it at that.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> The driver is more or less the same as normal ballasts. Line voltage is rectified and converted to high frequency AC. Regular ballasts then feed this to lamps directly. Induction feed this into a coil, which then excites the mercury vapor.
> 
> The Icetron runs at 200-300KHz. Regular ballast 20-100kHz. The frequency is chosen to avoid interference with infrared remotes, theft detection system and what not.
> 
> ...



Again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Most operate at 250Khz, and VERY few operate at 1 Mhz.
No Induction that I've ever heard of, or tested, work on 20- 100khz.

Oh, and operating life has much to do with the RF coils, the analgam temp, along with the driver temp. Not just the driver case temp.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*lights*

I 'd like to add that Not "All" flourescents decay at the rate you mentioned. Everyone is just so used to cheap crap . I use (when customer can afford) a super high quality phosphor bulb with 95% lumen maintainance, cathode shields, rare earth phosphors, double tungsten cathodes, etc.. They have a 10yr guarentee and I give a 5 yr on them I'm so convinced. I also found very high end electronic ballast which last 30-50 yrs that supplement them.


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Again, you have no clue what you're talking about.
> 
> Most operate at 250Khz, and VERY few operate at 1 Mhz.
> No Induction that I've ever heard of, or tested, work on 20- 100khz.


That sentence could have been confusing. I reworded. I meant that standard fluorescent electronic ballasts run at 20-100kHz.



> Oh, and operating life has much to do with the RF coils, the analgam temp, along with the driver temp. Not just the driver case temp.


Good point. Electrodeless fluorescents do not have cathodes, but have a coil, which can fail. 

Ballast/driver/control gear life are based on temperature at the case. Internal temperature is directly related to case temp. case temp is used for sake of easier measurement. 



Dnkldorf said:


> No they don't. The Induction bulbs run way cooler than MH. A fully operational Induction bulb, will not burn your hands if you touch it.
> If I had to guess right now, I'd say an Induction bulb runs 2-300 degress less than a MH. MH are hot as hell when they burn.


Amalgam tip holds the pellet and dictates the mercury pressure inside. It affects the output, not life. This is the same with CFL as well. On lamps like Philips PL-T, you'll find the "cold finger" in base just as you do on electrodeless "induction" fluorescent. If you read the PDF I linked, you'll see that Icetron is designed to provide maximum output with a temperature range of 60-130C. It will burn you if you touch it. 




Cletis said:


> I 'd like to add that Not "All" flourescents decay at the rate you mentioned. Everyone is just so used to cheap crap . I use (when customer can afford) a super high quality phosphor bulb with 95% lumen maintainance, cathode shields, rare earth phosphors, double tungsten cathodes, etc.. They have a 10yr guarentee and I give a 5 yr on them I'm so convinced. I also found very high end electronic ballast which last 30-50 yrs that supplement them.


What size lamps are they? 32W 4' T8s from GE/Philips/OSI all have ~95% lifetime lumen maintenance, but they're only running at 212mW per sq.in.

Compare that to 13W T2 CFL that stretches out to 12" if you were to "unwind" them. 9.42sq.in 1440mW per sq.in or 8 times the power density.

It's well documented that increasing power density reduces efficacy, though it is done as a trade off to make compact, as in CFLs and "induction".


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Cletis said:


> They have a 10yr guarentee and I give a 5 yr on them I'm so convinced. I also found very high end electronic ballast which last 30-50 yrs that supplement them.


Yet you express lack of confidence here, which I can't blame. 
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f8/labor-warranty-high-poles-46938/


It's not always cheaper to do burn-in on every unit. 
For all they're worth, the warranty could mean that "sure, ship back the failed ones and we'll pick the replacement out from our excess inventory and ship replacement units freight collect". 

Owing to high upfront prices, LEDs and inductions are appealing to fly by the night vendors who basically assemble generic mass produced junk in-shop, then call it ARRA approved Made in the USA blah blah blah


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Amalgam tip holds the pellet and dictates the mercury pressure inside. It affects the output, not life. This is the same with CFL as well. On lamps like Philips PL-T, you'll find the "cold finger" in base just as you do on electrodeless "induction" fluorescent. If you read the PDF I linked, you'll see that Icetron is designed to provide maximum output with a temperature range of 60-130C. It will burn you if you touch it.


Look man, the amalgam is the most important temp to control on the induction bulb. It has a max temp of 135C which is hot. It doesn't mean it operates at this temp, because this max temp is dependant on the ambient temp in the surrounding area. Hense, why the cooler the enviroment, the longer the life you will see. Same as the junction temp of LED's.

Depending on the fixture, the operating bulb temp will vary. 
The max bulb temp I have recorded using a 70W induction bulb, in the colonial fixtures I retrofitted, was 44C. 111F. What does a T-5 run at?

Lifespan of T-5?


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Look man, the amalgam is the most important temp to control on the induction bulb.


Same with amalgam type CFLs like PL-T and T5/HO HT. 



> It has a max temp of 135C which is hot. It doesn't mean it operates at this temp, because this max temp is dependant on the ambient temp in the surrounding area. Hense, why the cooler the enviroment, the longer the life you will see. Same as the junction temp of LED's.
> 
> Depending on the fixture, the operating bulb temp will vary.
> The max bulb temp I have recorded using a 70W induction bulb, in the colonial fixtures I retrofitted, was 44C. 111F. What does a T-5 run at?


That means the lamp is operating at about 65% of rated output. 
http://www.elightbulbs.com/pdfs/sylvania/Sylvania-Icetron.pdf

They need to run at 55-120C for optimal output. You should see how slow PL-T lamps ramp up compared to PL-C(non-amalgam), but the PL-Ts don't lose output due to heat. 



> Lifespan of T-5?


Depends on how you define it. If the cut-off was 85% of new lumen output, Induction reaches this point in 10,000 hrs or so. T5s, I would say until they fail, which can be 40,000 hrs or so. 

If the cut off was until "they stop working" induction has an upper hand then, which is allowed to depreciate to like 65% at 100,000 hrs.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

deleted


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> That means the lamp is operating at about 65% of rated output.
> http://www.elightbulbs.com/pdfs/sylvania/Sylvania-Icetron.pdf
> 
> They need to run at 55-120C for optimal output. You should see how slow PL-T lamps ramp up compared to PL-C(non-amalgam), but the PL-Ts don't lose output due to heat.



Bulb temp, amalgam temp, coil temp, heatsink temp, and driver temps are all different, and all depend on the surrounding ambient temp.

In a 20C ambient testing space, the bulb temp is 44C.
The amalgam is 79C
The RF coils run at 92C.

What else can I teach you about Induction, or are you to stubborn to learn?


----------



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Bulb temp, amalgam temp, coil temp, heatsink temp, and driver temps are all different, and all depend on the surrounding ambient temp.
> 
> In a 20C ambient testing space, the bulb temp is 44C.
> The amalgam is 79C
> ...


The coldest point of the lamp sets the pressure, which is usually the amalgam tip.


----------



## Wyatt78 (Dec 12, 2012)

I have make small LED sign with different color of lights. But i want to add sensor with audio sound. I am trying to do this but all in vain. 
can any one help me?


----------

