# 1960's era low voltage switched lighting



## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

This should be fun. There were 3 of these in the house along with a zinsco panel. This is what it looks like I guess after 50 years of "electricians" dicking around. Essentially all of the 120 lighting loads are switched by 12V(I think might be 24) with relays, apparently it was all the rage in the 60's. The first one we did we essentially removed the low voltage wiring and devices and ran romex to standard switches. We made all of the splices in the existing junction box that you can see(barely) mounted to the stud. Anybody run into these systems ever?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

QMED said:


> This should be fun. There were 3 of these in the house along with a zinsco panel. This is what it looks like I guess after 50 years of "electricians" dicking around. Essentially all of the 120 lighting loads are switched by 12V(I think might be 24) with relays, apparently it was all the rage in the 60's. The first one we did we essentially removed the low voltage wiring and devices and ran romex to standard switches. We made all of the splices in the existing junction box that you can see(barely) mounted to the stud. Anybody run into these systems ever?


Looks like Touch Plate.

http://touchplate.com/

They are a breeze -- ONCE you comprehend what you're looking at.

They use impulse triggering... momentary contact.

If the contact is not broken, the scheme 'locks-up.'

The real cure: replace the sticky wall switches. Yes, they don't last forever.

Touch Plate, and GE, et. al. have been covered in previous ET threads. So search the back files.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

They are great when all is working. That pic is one of the worst I've seen.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yup, 60's _'Jestons_' era switching, the older mansions here are lousy with 'em. GE still makes the replacement parts 

Go here for one of their many vendors.....

~CS~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> They are great when all is working. That pic is one of the worst I've seen.


Yup.

The photo is 90 degrees from true.

1) The typical scheme uses 4x4 gutters -- as seen above -- with the low voltage side of the relays hanging outside -- into 'free space.'

2) The typical old install has burnt out transformers -- and sticky wall switches.

3) It will also feature Master Control panels with burnt out 6VAC pilot lamps, galore.

Touch Plate ALSO has replacement components.

&&&&

The number one ^%$& of old Touch Plate schemes: the 'e-dudes' don't 'get' that these are Momentary Contact switches.

This is all too much for residential service call electricians.

Then they %$#*&^ like boobs -- trying to make Touch Plate into circuits they are familiar with: direct switching.

If the ancient wall plate switches (40 years old) were merely swapped out, virtually ALL of any given old Touch Plate system's problems would evaporate.

It really is that simple.

BTW, they are not that expensive -- and can STILL be bought over the Internet. (direct)

You will find that the e-men that ^%&* with Touch Plate were totally lost -- and made everything worse -- as they were totally blind, _conceptually_ blind.

They should've logged into ET. :thumbsup:

Service electricians are NOT prepared to deal with momentary contact switching.

True. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> They should've logged into ET. :thumbsup:
> 
> Service electricians are NOT prepared to deal with momentary contact switching.
> 
> True. :thumbsup:












~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We used to see these as energy management systems in Sears stores. Pulse on, pulse off. I think every single part is on the shelf somewhere. Nothing wrong with it. I would prefer if it were all RF and all lighting was POE.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

When you added new switches, did you keep them sideways like the original mudring was or something else?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Majewski said:


> When you added new switches, did you keep them sideways like the original mudring was or something else?


Hey Maj.,,

With the low voltage switches if you look at the junction boxes on the wall they are typically the same as line voltage switches junction boxes.

The "sideway" mounting basically simuair to dispar ( spelling ) switching arrangements is. 

The last low voltage switching I did work on it did have three momteary switches on one yolk strap but when you pull it out of the wall it can be a rat nest so expect that.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I've encountered a few of those in old Toronto mansions. They were the smart homes of their day and it works very well when properly maintained. It is a little sad to see that stuff torn out, although most would agree that there's no other way to get dimming or timer control in a house with that system.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

Thanks for the response guys maybe it could be salvaged if we felt like messing with it. As it's currently wired it's completely unsafe and we're going to replace all of it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

QMED said:


> Thanks for the response guys maybe it could be salvaged if we felt like messing with it. As it's currently wired it's completely unsafe and we're going to replace all of it.


Don't feel bad about it. Yes it was a good system, in it's day, but that's now long past. 

Nobody uses Motorola flip phones anymore either.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

QMED said:


> Thanks for the response guys maybe it could be salvaged if we felt like messing with it. As it's currently wired it's completely unsafe *and we're going to replace all of it.*


It's not so unsafe -- as it is corn fusing.

*You'll have to open up countless walls to do so.*

There is usually no Romex at the switch positions for you to connect into.

That is, you're starting entirely from scratch.

The original system has lighting power sent directly to this very long gutter.

From the gutter you have every single switch-leg, ( Romex ) , heading off to this or that lighting. ( can be a solo fixture, can be an entire room, can be any combo )

If you merely swap out the ancient Touch Plate low-voltage switches -- which are both cheap and new production -- you'll have eliminated the primary problem that has caused the guys to ^%$$& with this system.

It's a SNAP to dope out which original switch leg fed what -- by jumpering past whatever they are wired to at this time.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you've got lights that 'hang.' You can't turn them on, you can't turn them off.

This is solely caused by:

Stuck Touch Plate wall switches
Burned out Touch Plate transformers
Smoked Touch Plate latching relays

The limited power available on the Touch Plate logical bus ( the white 7-wire cable) means that it will last millennia.

[ White = Common; the other colors are low voltage switch-legs that vector off to this or that relay. A given relay can have multiple switch-legs ( on color ) connected to it, as each sends only an impulse -- that triggers a change of state -- from off to on -- from on to off. You'll find White connected to every wall switch, and the other wire being Brown, Orange, Black, etc. heading off and back to the relay gutter. ]

Recommendation -- for practicality -- leave the walls intact -- *replace the active elements*, all of them -- this goes VERY fast. Every active element is way past its design life.

*You should be in and out in a single day... one man... no dust.* 

All work is exposed work, ie 'trimmings.'

Then close up the open gutter with a common 4x4 gutter lid.

Where dimming is desired, slap in wireless controls... right at the fixtures. This will require minimal cutting in.

Opening up all of the walls = $$,$$$ and a burned up professional reputation. 

Once you 'get hip' you'll want ALL of the Touch Plate 'action' that you can get. :thumbup:

Because it's a SNAP to cure... absolutely PURE 'cake' work... easiest %$#& you've ever touched. :thumbsup:

Thank me later.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> It's not so unsafe -- as it is corn fusing.
> 
> *You'll have to open up countless walls to do so.*
> 
> ...


I'd look at this as a controls job. You could rip it out and replace the control system, but with replacement parts readily available, and the cost, I don't think that's the right thing to do. 

There is a lot more money in doing this the hard way, but most of that is for the sheetrocker / plasterer. 

Even when / if the GE system gets discontinued, you have plenty of other options for low voltage controls. 

I'd differ with @tesla on one thing, I'd probably plan on two days on site for this, and half a day off site. The first day I'd just bring a few replacement parts and a helper to speed up the tracing / toning / testing. I'd take a day just to trace and map things out and tag labels on wires and relays, make a drawing for as-found, and take a lot of "before" pictures, some to document the install as is, some for the web site. I'd fix a few just to verify things are what I think they are. The helper is optional but will reduce a lot of foot mileage tracing things out. 

In between, I'd draw up a schematic for the new plan, I'd buy some plywood for the backboards, terminal blocks for the low voltage, and maybe for the line voltage too, maybe replacement or additional gutters for the line voltage ... slotted duct, and all the replacement parts. 

The second trip I'd just cut it up and connect according to the drawing, not too much thinking, test, take pictures for the web site, and hope that some of the neighbors have the same setup. 

If it all goes to plan it will be two days with a very satisfying end result, you could have the before pictures on the "Gems" thread and after pictures on the "Wire ****" thread. And you'll be way under the quotes to do it the hard way.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

frenchelectrican said:


> Hey Maj.,,
> 
> With the low voltage switches if you look at the junction boxes on the wall they are typically the same as line voltage switches junction boxes.
> 
> ...


I was just curious on OP method. Whenever I find lv wiring to a wall switch its just the mud ring and switch. I didn't see OP say if he cut in boxes or anything. I'm just curious.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would love it if someone would make a nice direst replacement for these systems. I could sell 3 of them right now. I have honestly thought about using a little plc and some relays but that just seems stupid.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I would love it if someone would make a nice direst replacement for these systems. I could sell 3 of them right now. I have honestly thought about using a little plc and some relays but that just seems stupid.


All the parts are available I believe.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> All the parts are available I believe.


Yea, I am thinking something a bit more modern looking and with push to hold dimmers. Crap like that. 

On another note the last one I worked on was hidden behind the bathroom mirror. No hinges or anything. Took me an hour just to find it. Crazy what people did back them.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I've encountered a few of those in old Toronto mansions. They were the smart homes of their day and it works very well when properly maintained. It is a little sad to see that stuff torn out, although most would agree that there's no other way to get dimming or timer control in a house with that system.





sbrn33 said:


> I would love it if someone would make a nice direst replacement for these systems. I could sell 3 of them right now. I have honestly thought about using a little plc and some relays but that just seems stupid.


It seems like PLCs or in this case maybe a home automation panel only pay in cases where straightforward relay control isn't enough. So if they like it like it was and want to keep it simple, you stay with relays. 

If they're ready for some smart house / home automation, repurpose the old low voltage wiring. 

I guess it would make sense to ask if they're interested in upgrading to occupancy sensors, motions on the outside lighting, etc...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

telsa said:


> It's not so unsafe -- as it is corn fusing.
> 
> *You'll have to open up countless walls to do so.*
> 
> ...


This should either be a sticky or tagged in a way where it is very searchable. Nice work putting this together.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Definitely a good 'upsell'.....~CS~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> All the parts are available I believe.


The sole and only fundamental problem with Touch Plate: its' TOO OLD.

So the active (low voltage) switches 'hang' -- and after there everything is a cluster.

You CAN'T go over to conventional switching -- without opening up most of the walls.

There is NO Romex to play with.

Momentary contact switching logic is BEYOND the average Joe.

*Once you realize that this is a remove and replace trim-job...*

Your mouth will salivate.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Majewski said:


> I was just curious on OP method. Whenever I find lv wiring to a wall switch its just the mud ring and switch. I didn't see OP say if he cut in boxes or anything. I'm just curious.


This is absolutely true.

The swich locations are wired low voltage -- without a back-box.

You have to be insane to mess with Touch Plate fundamentals.

Just order out a *TOTAL* swap of the active elements.

Touch Plate will have them all shipped to you within 72 business hours.

Once you dope out what's up -- you'll feel ashamed -- that you ever made such a fuss.
*
The next thing you'll know -- you'll be expressly advertising to 'deal' with Touch Plate.*

*The fat -- the sugar -- the cream.*


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The VERY first time I dealt with Touch Plate -- I had to wrap my mind around momentary-contact lighting controls. 

Once your head gets around the idea that this is what's going on...

The rest is IDIOT simple.

Indeed, you'll be pissed that EVERY house is not wired this way.

All ideas about fishing wires -- opening up walls -- will evaporate.

Instead, you'll be working on your legs -- not even in a crouch.

Touch Plate // GE et. al. are two-generations ahead of everything that's out there.

Yes, yes, I'll work FIVE times as fast as you. 'Cause I'm a 'hip' electrician.

All industrial electricians will find Touch Plate to be simple as pie.

Don't shame yourself.

Heck, you can even PM me.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> The sole and only fundamental problem with Touch Plate: its' TOO OLD.
> 
> So the active (low voltage) switches 'hang' -- and after there everything is a cluster.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point. Count up the switches and place the order.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

I replaced my uncle's RIMCOM low-voltage home lighting system back in 1978. Many of them wouldn't work. I think it was because when the lights were on the relay coil was always energized and they would burn out. His house was probably built in the early to mid '60s

Whatever I replaced them with were low-voltage latching style relays. The new relay was only energized momentarily. For some reason I had to pull an extra wire to all of the relays. Can't remember why.

All of his switches were like momentary rocker switches. They had spoons and butter knives jammed into them to keep them depreseed and somehow that would keep the lights on. Weird.

The new system was still working OK in the 2000's when he sold his house.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

telsa said:


> The VERY first time I dealt with Touch Plate -- I had to wrap my mind around momentary-contact lighting controls.
> 
> Once your head gets around the idea that this is what's going on...
> 
> ...


 No No, it's terrible work especially in those Toronto mansions, stay away!

It is very tough if you don't bring the right chair.









I generally tell customers it's cheaper to swap out ALL the old touchplates than it is for me to diagnose and track down a few sticky ones, because once one fails the others start crapping out too. 

Then it's generally just a matter of cleaning up the mess left by people hacking at it over the ages replacing a few relays and maybe a transformer. Apprentice changes plates while I OCD in the basement. He has a toner while he changes devices and I label the control wires as he goes along, just in case wires were crossed over the ages.

Not unusual to have a bathroom switch turning the kitchen light on and off after uncle Fred "looked" at it .

Unless there are broken wires in the walls, even a nasty one like the OP posted would only mean a late lunch day. 

You can also upgrade them to 2 wire digital control systems. :thumbsup:

But you'd hate that work, especially in mansions. 

Biggest worry on jobs like that, is knocking some Ming vase over. Or them asking you to look at that chandelier in the grand entryway that is the size of an iceberg ...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ten years before Tesla was up in obama's grandma's apartment, I wired 6 houses in a straight row along Naniloa Loop in Laie using touch plate low voltage wiring. I didn't have headphones hooked to an iPod then , but I sure did have a boom box with Sknyrd playing Gimme Back My Bullets while I was working on it......

I wasn't self employed yet, go blame old Earl for that.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I have a customer that has one and nobody can fix it . took 15 20 to find the problem . parts are easy to get . Can not figure out why other sparks can't fix it . GRAVY WORK!!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I would love it if someone would make a nice direst replacement for these systems. I could sell 3 of them right now. I have honestly thought about using a little plc and some relays but that just seems stupid.


Google TouchPlate

Yes, they are still in business...

Shockingly, even their prices are decent.

72 hours away.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

The last one of these I got sucked into turned into a 100% gut and re wire with wall/ceiling repair and paint. Took weeks. I went through many multi blades to cut out those mud rings.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Majewski said:


> The last one of these I got sucked into turned into a 100% gut and re wire with wall/ceiling repair and paint. Took weeks. I went through many multi blades to cut out those mud rings.


 May I ask why? I have only done a few so far, but only time I had to bust plaster was when some wires got a nail trough them.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

daks said:


> May I ask why? I have only done a few so far, but only time I had to bust plaster was when some wires got a nail trough them.


Because their landscaper tried to fix it for them and made the entire house a huge hazard.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Because their landscaper tried to fix it for them and made the entire house a huge hazard.


 Oh, Lol, have not had to work on a "landscaped" one .... yet. 

Probably sprayed roundup in the boxes and mulched the relay trough.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

daks said:


> Oh, Lol, have not had to work on a "landscaped" one .... yet.
> 
> Probably sprayed roundup in the boxes and mulched the relay trough.


It's criminal actually.... if you're interested you can pm me. I'd love to share just not publicly.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

catsparky1 said:


> I have a customer that has one and nobody can fix it . took 15 20 to find the problem . parts are easy to get . Can not figure out why other sparks can't fix it . GRAVY WORK!!


The term you are looking for is either 'lazy' or 'unknowledgeable'.


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