# All #12



## Speedy Petey

Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.

I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


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## BuzzKill

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


Did he use #12 for his stove, water heater and a/c? :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey

BuzzKill said:


> Did he use #12 for his stove, water heater and a/c? :laughing:


You know what I meant. :turned:


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## 480sparky

I always respond to those types of people with, "But did you run 1" copper to all your plumbing fixtures?"


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> I always respond to those types of people with, "But did you run 1" copper to all your plumbing fixtures?"


Don't tell me that's in the new code.:jester:


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## NolaTigaBait

I had a customer refuse to let me wire anything in #14..all #12 because it's safer:001_huh:...


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## RIVETER

NolaTigaBait said:


> I had a customer refuse to let me wire anything in #14..all #12 because it's safer:001_huh:...


That would cut out the backstabbing, right?


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## jw0445

Speedy Petey said:


> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


Stupid is one thing that noone can fix.......


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## davey

RIVETER said:


> That would cut out the backstabbing, right?



More than that; it would reduce voltage drop, compensate for any real high ambients such as you sometimes find in attic crawlspaces . . . there have been a couple of articles the past year or two in which the ROI economics of upsizing conductors has been demonstrated. Not real fast ROI, but ROI.

For an extreme case, I had one customer who didn't like the fact that her lights would dim when her HVAC kicked on. Wouldn't touch the HVAC or service, but had me upsize the affected branch circuit conductors. It worked.


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## RIVETER

I think that #12 is good. The NEC is the minimum.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott

RIVETER said:


> I think that #12 is good. The NEC is the minimum.:thumbsup:


It is good, no doubt. #14 is good too.


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## RIVETER

electricmanscott said:


> It is good, no doubt. #14 is good too.


I won't dissagree with that. You know what I mean.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> I think that #12 is good.


It is great when needed and an absolute waste when not needed.


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## RIVETER

Bob Badger said:


> It is great when needed and an absolute waste when not needed.


Again, I can't dissagree. If it's in the book, then it is legal and safe...enough. But I wonder why they stress that the code is the minimum requirement. They put the minimum out there and tell you how much load you can put on it and almost all overload it anyway. I'm not talking about all the GOOD electricians, just people in general. Everyone seems to be looking for the mimimum requirements. Again, you are correct in your statement.:thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey

My point was really that he thought using #14 for the 3-ways was perfect fine.


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## RIVETER

Speedy Petey said:


> My point was really that he thought using #14 for the 3-ways was perfect fine.


I knew what you meant Speedy. By the way, I'm keeping track. Nothing real snotty this morning...yet.:thumbsup:


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## jarhead0531

The only time I use 14 is for tying into existing circuits. If I'm running any sort of new circuit it is in 12 on a 20A breaker, even lighting circuits. Price difference is minimal.

I've been in too many homes where people tap into the closest wire for anything without bothering to look what else may be on that circuit. Not to mention that damn near every house I've ever been in use those job security providing space heaters.

Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


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## Bkessler

jarhead0531 said:


> Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


It's just you, trust me and running #14 doesn't cause outlets to burn up, its loose connections from HO and helpers who can't install a plug worth a ****.


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## electricmanscott

jarhead0531 said:


> T
> Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


It is just you, and it's also a load of crap.


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## Bkessler

electricmanscott said:


> It is just you, and it's also a load of crap.


steaming


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## jarhead0531

Tell me how you really feel...


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## RIVETER

jarhead0531 said:


> Tell me how you really feel...


Welcome to the forum.:thumbsup:


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## jarhead0531

No worries. New to this forum but I have been on plenty others. Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one, and some are just a little more touchy about theirs...

Mind you I never said their opinion was wrong, just said what I do, and why.

Can't be a jarhead with thin skin so it is all good. Just wish I was out running calls rather than sitting at home arguing about this dumb sh!#$


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> ..........They put the minimum out there and tell you how much load you can put on it and almost all overload it anyway. ...........


If you install a 15a circuit, people will overload it. If you replace it with a 20, they will just add more to it and overload it. if you were able to legally install a 30a circuit, they'd find a way to overload that as well.


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> If you install a 15a circuit, people will overload it. If you replace it with a 20, they will just add more to it and overload it. if you were able to legally install a 30a circuit, they'd find a way to overload that as well.


I agree with you totally, but my way of thinking is that if you use #12 wire and protect it at 15 amps there is a larger margin of error.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> I agree with you totally, but my way of thinking is that if you use #12 wire and protect it at 15 amps there is a larger margin of error.



It will trip just as fast.


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## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> I agree with you totally, but my way of thinking is that if you use #12 wire and protect it at 15 amps there is a larger margin of error.


14 AWG is actually rated 20-25 amps, is that not enough margin already?


Do whatever floats your boat, myself I favor a great number of smaller circuits.


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## Rudeboy

Bob Badger said:


> 14 AWG is actually rated 20-25 amps, is that not enough margin already?
> 
> 
> Do whatever floats your boat, myself I favor a great number of smaller circuits.


I thought 14 awg was rated to 20a and 12 awg was rated to 25a.


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## TOOL_5150

if you run #14 in free air, you can put around 200A on it before it melts...

~Matt


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## Rudeboy

TOOL_5150 said:


> if you run #14 in free air, you can put around 200A on it before it melts...
> 
> ~Matt


I can eat free-range chicken medium rare but...
:icon_wink:


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## Speedy Petey

RIVETER said:


> I agree with you totally, but my way of thinking is that if you use #12 wire and protect it at 15 amps there is a larger margin of error.


No offense Riv, but I hard this a lot from DIYers and I find this absolutely ludicrous. This is not something I would expect to hear from a seasoned electrician.

There is NO "safety margin" in undersizing a breaker in this case. Especially considering 240/4(D). It is ALREADY undersized.

Now if you are talking about voltage drop that is different.


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## jwjrw

Customer: Well I know that it is wired correctly because my neighbor's sister's brother in law Bubba had his cousins father call a guy that lives in the trailer park who knew some crack head needing some fast cash................


Me: Yea them hard up for money crack heads do some mighty fine work.....


Customer#2: I thought you said you were reasonably priced.
Me: We are
Customer#2 Well the last guy didn't charge me anywhere near that.
Me: Yet you called me and not him to fix his screw up.........


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## RIVETER

Speedy Petey said:


> No offense Riv, but I hard this a lot from DIYers and I find this absolutely ludicrous. This is not something I would expect to hear from a seasoned electrician.
> 
> There is NO "safety margin" in undersizing a breaker in this case. Especially considering 240/4(D). It is ALREADY undersized.
> 
> Now if you are talking about voltage drop that is different.


The margin of error I was referring to ,I guess, is not correct. When I said "Margin of error" I meant more room for a DIY to f**k up. #12 would be more forgiving. By the way, what do you mean by a "seasoned" electrician? I have been at this for a while but not all of it was outside.Tell Badger, and 480 Sparky that when you see them.


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## Speedy Petey

RIVETER said:


> The margin of error I was referring to ,I guess, is not correct. When I said "Margin of error" I meant more room for a DIY to f**k up. #12 would be more forgiving.


#14 on a 15A breaker would be JUST as forgiving. 




RIVETER said:


> By the way, what do you mean by a "seasoned" electrician? I have been at this for a while but not all of it was outside.


Basically any of us on here would qualify. :thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> I thought 14 awg was rated to 20a and 12 awg was rated to 25a.


25 amperes at 90degrees C, derating only!


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## Bob Badger

BuzzKill said:


> 25 amperes at 90degrees C, derating only!


Pretty much.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> The margin of error I was referring to ,I guess, is not correct. When I said "Margin of error" I meant more room for a DIY to f**k up. #12 would be more forgiving. By the way, what do you mean by a "seasoned" electrician? I have been at this for a while but not all of it was outside.Tell Badger, and 480 Sparky that when you see them.


I could care less what a DIYer does. If they want to wire a whole house with #10 "because it's safer", I sleep just as well at night when I install #14.


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> 25 amperes at 90degrees C, derating only!


Are we still talking about the OP? I guess not. If so, I believe you need to look at the 60 degree column.


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Are we still talking about the OP? I guess not. If so, I believe you need to look at the 60 degree column.


I believe you need to STFU.


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## Josue

NolaTigaBait said:


> I had a customer refuse to let me wire anything in #14..all #12 because it's safer:001_huh:...


 Been there done that


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## Jlarson

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


Man I just want to smack the crap out of people like that. And let me guess the dude at Home Depot told them 12 was safer right?


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> I believe you need to STFU.


What? Why?


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## NolaTigaBait

jarhead0531 said:


> The only time I use 14 is for tying into existing circuits. If I'm running any sort of new circuit it is in 12 on a 20A breaker, even lighting circuits. Price difference is minimal.
> 
> I've been in too many homes where people tap into the closest wire for anything without bothering to look what else may be on that circuit. Not to mention that damn near every house I've ever been in use those job security providing space heaters.
> 
> Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


Thats because #14 is backstabbed...we know how that usually turns out.


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> What? Why?


simple: I said so.


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> simple: I said so.


Well that's not very nice.


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## TOOL_5150

I have yet to understand why running a larger size conductor than required by code is "safer"

~Matt


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## 480sparky

Suppose all this wonderfully safe #12 is stuffed into Carlon nail-on boxes? Does that magically make it unsafe? :jester:


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## BuzzKill

TOOL_5150 said:


> I have yet to understand why running a larger size conductor than required by code is "safer"
> 
> ~Matt


It's in case you have one of those portable dryers that are all the rage and need to plug them in next to your bed.


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## robnj772

jarhead0531 said:


> The only time I use 14 is for tying into existing circuits. If I'm running any sort of new circuit it is in 12 on a 20A breaker, even lighting circuits. Price difference is minimal.
> 
> I've been in too many homes where people tap into the closest wire for anything without bothering to look what else may be on that circuit. Not to mention that damn near every house I've ever been in use those job security providing space heaters.
> 
> Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


 
Price difference is minimal my A$$

You are talking a price difference of about $105 bucks per thousand on 12/2 vrs 14/2 and a difference of about $140 bucks per thousand on 12/3 vrs 14/3

Then figure in labor differences and box fill dilemmas.

It all adds up,at the end of the year your little minimal price difference is in the thousands if not tens of thousands.

All for nothing


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## BuzzKill

480sparky said:


> Suppose all this wonderfully safe #12 is stuffed into Carlon nail-on boxes? Does that magically make it unsafe? :jester:


apparently it does with a select FEW member(s).


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## TOOL_5150

NolaTigaBait said:


> Thats because #14 is backstabbed...we know how that usually turns out.


The switches and receptacles that I buy do not have holes for backstabbing. I always wrap #14 around a screw, or backwire, weather there is means of backstabbing or not.

You should just run 4/0 to all your boxes - that will be the ultimate in safety.... youll never be able to wire anything up!

~Matt


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Well that's not very nice.


I'mnot feeling very nice right now, actually, never really have felt nice...I feel mean, it feels good.


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> apparently it does with a select FEW member(s).



OK, so I use #12, which is safe, but I stick it into a Carlon nail-on box, which makes it unsafe. Now suppose I slobber 3M Scotchkote all over the 12? Safe again?


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## TOOL_5150

BuzzKill said:


> It's in case you have one of those portable dryers that are all the rage and need to plug them in next to your bed.


ok... so what. the breaker trips.

~Matt


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## BuzzKill

TOOL_5150 said:


> weather
> 
> ~Matt


whether, not weather


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## TOOL_5150

BuzzKill said:


> whether, not weather


I dont have to have good grammar to be a great electrician. :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> I'mnot feeling very nice right now, actually, never really have felt nice...I feel mean, it feels good.


........:yawn:


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## BuzzKill

480sparky said:


> OK, so I use #12, which is safe, but I stick it into a Carlon nail-on box, which makes it unsafe. Now suppose I slobber 3M Scotchkote all over the 12? Safe again?


You know? I have added absolutely ZERO comments about his underground (ahem) installations, but as a result of his anti-Carlon-ism, I may have to start.


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> You know? I have added absolutely ZERO comments about his underground (ahem) installations, but as a result of his anti-Carlon-ism, I may have to start.


Are you pro carlon box?


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## Bob Badger

So do the 12 AWG guys run 10 AWG for 20 amp circuits in homes?

10/2 to the washing machine on a 20 'cause it's safer'?

Heck it is only money, it can't add up.


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## BuzzKill

TOOL_5150 said:


> I dont have to have good grammar to be a great electrician. :thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt


Oyak, nhad em het lieKn's os I nac wtsti eseth erwitunst!


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## TOOL_5150

mr carlon himself, B4T isnt even here to defend himself.

Dont feel bad B4T, ive installed a few hundred feet of smurf tubing in a house I am working on.

~Matt


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## Rudeboy

Bob Badger said:


> So do the 12 AWG guys run 10 AWG for 20 amp circuits in homes?
> 
> 10/2 to the washing machine on a 20 'cause it's safer'?
> 
> Heck it is only money, it can't add up.


Seems like a pretty slippery slope.


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Are you pro carlon box?


I use what is listed and labeled for such jobs and Carlon boxes happens to be both; there are other boxes available that seem to have a higher quality but studies are inconclusive.


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## TOOL_5150

Bob Badger said:


> So do the 12 AWG guys run 10 AWG for 20 amp circuits in homes?
> 
> 10/2 to the washing machine on a 20 'cause it's safer'?
> 
> Heck it is only money, it can't add up.


Well yeah - remember NOT marking up on material makes you more money too!! :wallbash:

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150

BuzzKill said:


> Oyak, nhad em het lieKn's os I nac wtsti eseth erwitunst!


Yeah man.. you got it.

~Matt


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## BuzzKill

TOOL_5150 said:


> mr carlon himself, B4T isnt even here to defend himself.
> 
> Dont feel bad B4T, ive installed a few hundred feet of smurf tubing in a house I am working on.
> 
> ~Matt


underground at that!!


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## TOOL_5150

BuzzKill said:


> underground at that!!


Sealed with scotchcoat.

~Matt


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## BuzzKill

TOOL_5150 said:


> Sealed with scotchcoat.
> 
> ~Matt


Boo Yeah!
There. I feel like a new man.


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> I use what is listed and labeled for such jobs and Carlon boxes happens to be both; there are other boxes available that seem to have a higher quality but studies are inconclusive.


Heck, I use whatever works too but I don't think we need a study to show that Carlon products can be sh!tty.


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## B4T

TOOL_5150 said:


> Sealed with scotchcoat.
> 
> ~Matt


Dam straight.. :thumbsup:

Keeps the termites away.. who knew.. :jester:


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## NolaTigaBait

TOOL_5150 said:


> The switches and receptacles that I buy do not have holes for backstabbing. I always wrap #14 around a screw, or backwire, weather there is means of backstabbing or not.
> 
> You should just run 4/0 to all your boxes - that will be the ultimate in safety.... youll never be able to wire anything up!
> 
> ~Matt


That's great:thumbsup:...Why are you telling me to run 4/0 though?...You doi realize that I use #14 wherever I can..right?


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Heck, I use whatever works too but I don't think we need a study to show that Carlon products can be sh!tty.


Go Dodgers!


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## Rudeboy

Go Sharks!


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## mattsilkwood

I have never wired a house with 15A circuits. Everything is #12 on 20A breakers, that is just the way it's done around here. 
I can see putting lighting on a 15A but not receptacles. 
When your vacuum is 13A that doesn't leave a lot left.

Do you guys that use 15A circuits throughout the house get callbacks for breakers tripping?


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> You know? I have added absolutely ZERO comments about his underground (ahem) installations, but as a result of his anti-Carlon-ism, I may have to start.


Bring in on Blue Box Boy...:laughing:


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## Rudeboy

mattsilkwood said:


> I have never wired a house with 15A circuits. Everything is #12 on 20A breakers, that is just the way it's done around here.
> I can see putting lighting on a 15A but not receptacles.
> When your vacuum is 13A that doesn't leave a lot left.
> 
> Do you guys that use 15A circuits throughout the house get callbacks for breakers tripping?


With my old company we ran all 20a ckts for receptacles everywhere and 15a for the lighting.

Now I run 15a where ever I can. I've been with this company most of this year, no calls for trips yet.


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## NolaTigaBait

mattsilkwood said:


> I have never wired a house with 15A circuits. Everything is #12 on 20A breakers, that is just the way it's done around here.
> I can see putting lighting on a 15A but not receptacles.
> When your vacuum is 13A that doesn't leave a lot left.
> 
> Do you guys that use 15A circuits throughout the house get callbacks for breakers tripping?


Nope...No call backs. I do class A work though...my 15 amp circuits are better than your 20's.


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## jwjrw

Rudeboy said:


> Heck, I use whatever works too but I don't think we need a study to show that Carlon products can be sh!tty.


 
The boxes B4T burried might of been Carlon brand. They make a good pvc box. Their carflex is good stuff. The nail ups arent bad. I just hate their cut in boxes.


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## B4T

Any time I get a set of plans I double check the FPN about wires size for receptacles and lighting.

I got burned by that once and I still has a lasting effect.. the architects design the wiring according to HD salesman specs sometimes


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Go Sharks!


Hockey is irrelevant here except to the yankees.


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## TOOL_5150

NolaTigaBait said:


> That's great:thumbsup:...Why are you telling me to run 4/0 though?...You doi realize that I use #14 wherever I can..right?


The first part of my comment was about backstabbing with 14 and not having the backstab holes in the first place.

the second part of the comment was just a joke:jester:

~Matt


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> Hockey is irrelevant here except to the yankees.


Anything that has to do with where you live is irrelevant to the rest of us.
:notworthy:


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## B4T

jwjrw said:


> The boxes B4T burried might of been Carlon brand. They make a good pvc box. Their carflex is good stuff. The nail ups arent bad. I just hate their cut in boxes.


I only knock the Blue Carlon boxes because most have a hack handyman installing it.

The gray boxes that I bury in peoples yards are made in Canada by Scepter.. really thick plastic if you hit it with a shovel while digging


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> Anything that has to do with where you live is irrelevant to the rest of us.
> :notworthy:


As Martha Stewart would say: "That's a good thing."
You can have it.
We live in the part of the country "not named California".
Football and Baseball rule the day, bra.


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## Rudeboy

BuzzKill said:


> Football and Baseball rule the day, bra.


They do here as well. With a little basketball mixed in. I've never been to a hockey game.


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> I use what is listed and labeled for such jobs and Carlon boxes happens to be both; there are other boxes available that seem to have a higher quality but studies are inconclusive.



*Studies*?? What 'studies'? :001_huh:


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## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> I only knock the Blue Carlon boxes because most have a hack handyman installing it..........



So if hacks drove Ferraris you'd think Ferraris are sub-standard?:001_huh:

If hacks use Knipex, you'd avoid Knipex tools?


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## BuzzKill

480sparky said:


> *Studies*?? What 'studies'? :001_huh:


let me google that for you.


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## BuzzKill

Rudeboy said:


> They do here as well. With a little basketball mixed in. I've never been to a hockey game.


Hockey games in person RULE.
LOTS of fun: drinking, yelling, etc. you can appreciate the game when you go.


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> let me google that for you.



Let me Google that for you.


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## BuzzKill

480sparky said:


> Let me Google that for you.


see, I don't have those cool toys yet, but I'm still learning!


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> So if hacks drove Ferraris you'd think Ferraris are sub-standard?:001_huh:
> 
> If hacks use Knipex, you'd avoid Knipex tools?


GOOGLE definition of "Install" for your answer 

Wait.. I will do it for you.. 


*in·stall
*–verb (used with object) 
1. to place in position or connect for service or use


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## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> GOOGLE definition of "Install" for your answer
> 
> Wait.. I will do it for you..
> 
> 
> *in·stall
> *–verb (used with object)
> 1. to place in position or connect for service or use



Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess 3M Scotchkote is a hack product then. As well as Scepter boxes. :grin:


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## Podagrower

jarhead0531 said:


> The only time I use 14 is for tying into existing circuits. If I'm running any sort of new circuit it is in 12 on a 20A breaker, even lighting circuits. Price difference is minimal.
> 
> I've been in too many homes where people tap into the closest wire for anything without bothering to look what else may be on that circuit. Not to mention that damn near every house I've ever been in use those job security providing space heaters.
> 
> Maybe its just me but whenever I pull out a burnt outlet it usually has 14 connected to it....


I actually had one burn up with #10 on it. Of course, it was Aluminum, and I (er, I mean some stupid homeowner) had plugged 3 1500 watt space heaters into the same circuit. It never tripped, but it was one hell of a light show.


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess 3M Scotchkote is a hack product then. As well as Scepter boxes. :grin:


So now I am a hack.. coming from a TOOL, I don't feel so bad


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## BuzzKill

Black4Truck said:


> So now I am a hack.. coming from a TOOL, I don't feel so bad


Is that all you got?
Pretty lame.


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> Is that all you got?
> Pretty lame.


At least he didn't mention my PhotoShopping images. :thumbsup:


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> Is that all you got?
> Pretty lame.


Straight to the point :thumbsup:

I never said anyone here who uses Carlon blue boxes was a hack.. only that those boxes were a clear sign of problems might be lurking on the job.


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## jarhead0531

Podagrower said:


> I actually had one burn up with #10 on it. Of course, it was Aluminum, and I (er, I mean some stupid homeowner) had plugged 3 1500 watt space heaters into the same circuit. It never tripped, but it was one hell of a light show.


#10 AL with 4500 watts on it will do that. Can't believe the breaker never tripped though. How long was that running before the it did the arcing and sparkin?? What size breaker was it actually on?


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## BuzzKill

Black4Truck said:


> Straight to the point :thumbsup:
> 
> I never said anyone here who uses Carlon blue boxes was a hack.. only that those boxes were a clear sign of problems might be lurking on the job.


I beg to differ!
But I don't have time to troll through your 6000 posts to find evidence, BUT it seems like you have perfectly insinuated as such...I could care less; I'll use what I use when I think it should be used and, most of the time, outside of my house, the work is good.


----------



## Jlarson

What if these blue boxes are installed by a trained, qualified non hack electrician, does that cancel out the boxes being hack?


----------



## jarhead0531

robnj772 said:


> Price difference is minimal my A$$
> 
> You are talking a price difference of about $105 bucks per thousand on 12/2 vrs 14/2 and a difference of about $140 bucks per thousand on 12/3 vrs 14/3
> 
> Then figure in labor differences and box fill dilemmas.
> 
> It all adds up,at the end of the year your little minimal price difference is in the thousands if not tens of thousands.
> 
> All for nothing


Thats all fine and dandy but I don't do new construction, and even if I did I'd pass the associated cost along to the customer.

As a service tech running a couple new circuits for the customer the price difference in materials will be under $20, which THEY PAY, and is only a TINY fraction of the total cost of the service.

Even in a new construction home the price difference between doing it all in 12 vs 14 would still be well under 1k. Granted in the ultra competitive market that new construction is that could be the difference between getting the gig, and going hungry.

Never had a problem with box fill, guess I just plan my layout better than you....


----------



## B4T

Jlarson said:


> What if these blue boxes are installed by a trained, qualified non hack electrician, does that cancel out the boxes being hack?


The boxes are really not hack.. just that HD and Lowes sell them and trunk slammers, handy men, homeowners, and HI guys buy them there.

My point has always been the Blue carlon box is a red flag :thumbsup:


----------



## NolaTigaBait

:blink:


jarhead0531 said:


> Thats all fine and dandy but I don't do new construction, and even if I did I'd pass the associated cost along to the customer.
> 
> As a service tech running a couple new circuits for the customer the price difference in materials will be under $20, which THEY PAY, and is only a TINY fraction of the total cost of the service.
> 
> Even in a new construction home the price difference between doing it all in 12 vs 14 would still be well under 1k. Granted in the ultra competitive market that new construction is that could be the difference between getting the gig, and going hungry.
> 
> Never had a problem with box fill, guess I just plan my layout better than you....


Lol.


----------



## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> The boxes are really not hack.. just that HD and Lowes sell them and trunk slammers, handy men, homeowners, and HI guys buy them there.
> 
> My point has always been the Blue carlon box is a red flag :thumbsup:



Then don't visit any of my resi jobs.:no:


----------



## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> I beg to differ!
> But I don't have time to troll through your 6000 posts to find evidence, BUT it seems like you have perfectly insinuated as such...I could care less; I'll use what I use when I think it should be used and, most of the time, outside of my house, the work is good.


You can easily do an advanced search of my posts, but I bet TOOL is doing it as I write this..


----------



## Jlarson

Black4Truck said:


> The boxes are really not hack.. just that HD and Lowes sell them and trunk slammers, handy men, homeowners, and HI guys buy them there.
> 
> My point has always been the Blue carlon box is a red flag :thumbsup:


I can live with that:thumbsup:


----------



## jarhead0531

And just to keep the the fire going. I see no problem with carlon boxes , sometimes I don't pre twist, ford is better than chevy, klein is just as good as knipex, I coat all my splices with scotchkote (yep, even indoors) blah, blah, blah.

This is just like Jerry Springer with the benefit of not seeing how ugly people are....


----------



## Speedy Petey

Well, this is not the course I had hoped for this thread, but so be it. 





jarhead0531 said:


> Never had a problem with box fill, guess I just plan my layout better than you....


I doubt that there son.

Most of my jobs have lots of 3 & 4 ways and dimmers everywhere. That along with multi-gang boxes, wired with all #12 is a recipe for a big P-I-A.


----------



## B4T

480sparky said:


> Then don't visit any of my resi jobs.:no:


Your in Iowa and they don't have many choices as in the big places that have millions of people in a (50) mile radius


----------



## B4T

Speedy Petey said:


> Well, this is not the course I had hoped for this thread, but so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that there son.
> 
> Most of my jobs have lots of 3 & 4 ways and dimmers everywhere. That along with multi-gang boxes, wired with all #12 is a recipe for a big P-I-A.


Sorry Pete.. I will shut up now..


----------



## Speedy Petey

Black4Truck said:


> Sorry Pete.. I will shut up now..


Oh stop it. :tongue_smilie:


----------



## jarhead0531

Speedy Petey said:


> Well, this is not the course I had hoped for this thread, but so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that there son.
> 
> Most of my jobs have lots of 3 & 4 ways and dimmers everywhere. That along with multi-gang boxes, wired with all #12 is a recipe for a big P-I-A.


DAD, finally I found you. Just playing, wasn't actually talking to you, and yes I agree 12 with dimmers and multis does suck sometimes. Not nearly as much as going in an attic when it a 100 fricking degrees outside though, so I deal, or I can find another profession.


----------



## robnj772

jarhead0531 said:


> Thats all fine and dandy but I don't do new construction, and even if I did I'd pass the associated cost along to the customer.
> 
> As a service tech running a couple new circuits for the customer the price difference in materials will be under $20, which THEY PAY, and is only a TINY fraction of the total cost of the service.
> 
> Even in a new construction home the price difference between doing it all in 12 vs 14 would still be well under 1k. Granted in the ultra competitive market that new construction is that could be the difference between getting the gig, and going hungry.
> 
> Never had a problem with box fill, guess I just plan my layout better than you....


I do high end renovations. The job I just finished roughing has 3 way and four way's in 5-7 gang boxes with an open floor plan which means not alot of places to put boxes.

5,000 ft 14/2
2750 ft 14/3

There is a $1,000 difference in material alone

Not to mention the 20 motorized skylights pre wired with OMG 14 wire.

I would love to see how some dumb a$$ service tech would wire that in 12 wire.... :lol:

As a matter of fact what would a dumb ass service tech who does no construction even know about layout?

Don't you have a gfi to reset or a light bulb to screw in somewhere?


----------



## RIVETER

Speedy Petey said:


> #14 on a 15A breaker would be JUST as forgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no other thing that I can say. I know you are correct in your wording. I'll just try better. In the back of my mind I guess I am trying to protect the idiots who don't know what they are doing. But the best way is to do it by the book...every time, and hope some idiot does not tamper with it. You are right...and I'm not sucking up. Does this affect the location of my booth at the forum picnic this year? See you there.
Click to expand...


----------



## ToolBag

If you run all #12 for receptacles and allow for more devices per circuit, you are minimizing homeruns which will narrow the gap in cost difference between using #14 and #12 (since you'll need less #12).

Then you sell the customer on 20A circuits and how much better #12 is, this thread is a perfect example of how they will believe you. 

A good salesmen should be trying to sell the more expensive product, no?


----------



## Split Bolt

Black4Truck said:


> The boxes are really not hack.. just that HD and Lowes sell them and trunk slammers, handy men, homeowners, and HI guys buy them there.
> 
> My point has always been the Blue carlon box is a red flag :thumbsup:


I use the "Baby Blue" Cantex box that my supplier sells. I love them because they separate me from the Big Box Specials!

http://www.cantexinc.com/Products/EZ_Residential_Boxes/Nails/index.php


----------



## Split Bolt

Split Bolt said:


> I use the "Baby Blue" Cantex box that my supplier sells. I love them because they separate me from the Big Box Specials!
> 
> http://www.cantexinc.com/Products/EZ_Residential_Boxes/Nails/index.php


Having said that though, they are basically the same!


----------



## ToolBag

Split Bolt said:


> I use the "Baby Blue" Cantex box that my supplier sells. I love them because they separate me from the Big Box Specials!
> 
> http://www.cantexinc.com/Products/EZ_Residential_Boxes/Nails/index.php


I like that the 4 gang has far-side support built in.


----------



## RIVETER

ToolBag said:


> If you run all #12 for receptacles and allow for more devices per circuit, you are minimizing homeruns which will narrow the gap in cost difference between using #14 and #12 (since you'll need less #12).
> 
> Then you sell the customer on 20A circuits and how much better #12 is, this thread is a perfect example of how they will believe you.
> 
> A good salesmen should be trying to sell the more expensive product, no?


In a way...yes. But a good electrical salesman should want to sell the client what he needs. My tendency has been to overkill and most likely the customer just abused it anyway. So the best way is to sell it by the book and be honest.


----------



## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> Your in Iowa and they don't have many choices as in the big places that have millions of people in a (50) mile radius



First off, it's _you're_, not _your_. :jester:

And secondly, yea, here in God's Country we don't try to cram as many people into each acre as inhumanly possible. But what does living in a state with a low population density have to do with me doing residential jobs using Carlon boxes?


----------



## B4T

480sparky said:


> First off, it's _you're_, not _your_. :jester:
> 
> And secondly, yea, here in God's Country we don't try to cram as many people into each acre as inhumanly possible. But what does living in a state with a low population density have to do with me doing residential jobs using Carlon boxes?


More people.. more choices

Less people.. less choices


----------



## RIVETER

Black4Truck said:


> More people.. more choices
> 
> Less people.. less choices


I am not sure what the joke is but Carlon is actually a respected company, and especially in tele, and data communications products.


----------



## jarhead0531

robnj772 said:


> I do high end renovations. The job I just finished roughing has 3 way and four way's in 5-7 gang boxes with an open floor plan which means not alot of places to put boxes.
> 
> 5,000 ft 14/2
> 2750 ft 14/3
> 
> There is a $1,000 difference in material alone
> 
> Not to mention the 20 motorized skylights pre wired with OMG 14 wire.
> 
> I would love to see how some dumb a$$ service tech would wire that in 12 wire.... :lol:
> 
> As a matter of fact what would a dumb ass service tech who does no construction even know about layout?
> 
> Don't you have a gfi to reset or a light bulb to screw in somewhere?


I was just tossing back a jab at ya with the layout comment for your previous post and the tone it took, which you continued. 

I'd get all defensive like you did, but I don't see they point, and quite frankly your right, many service techs are dumb asses, but I'm not, so I'm cool with your little rant.

Don't knock service work though, it does have the benefit of not seeing your boss often, and dealing with many different types of people and problems on a daily basis, keeps it interesting. Just pulling wire kinda stinks in my opinion, I like figuring out interesting problems cause by dumb HO's, handymen, and many times VERY bad electricians.

I'm sure in your case everything is fine, and all your circuits are sized correctly. But that isn't your average home, or your average home owner, which is what I try to plan for.

Guessing by all the "Thanks" you got for trying to smack me down I'll just go back to observing and enjoying the occasional nugget of information hiding amongst the BS.

Rock on homey.


----------



## RIVETER

Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!


----------



## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> More people.. more choices
> 
> Less people.. less choices



I still don't see the Carlon Connection.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

RIVETER said:


> Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!


Uhhhhhh.....You are weird.


----------



## knowshorts

ToolBag said:


> *If you run all #12 for receptacles and allow for more devices per circuit, you are minimizing homeruns which will narrow the gap in cost difference between using #14 and #12 (since you'll need less #12).*
> 
> Then you sell the customer on 20A circuits and how much better #12 is, this thread is a perfect example of how they will believe you.
> 
> A good salesmen should be trying to sell the more expensive product, no?


WTF you talking about Willis? You can minimize hr's with 14. Please don't tell me your calculating 180 VA per outlet. If the customer isn't gonna pay for it, they are getting the code minimum, which is legal and safe.


----------



## RIVETER

NolaTigaBait said:


> Uhhhhhh.....You are weird.


Come on, Nola. Don't say that you could not see that I was standing in the poster's corner when he vented about those who chastised him. Give him a break, and me, as well. We put up with you, don't we?


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Put up with me?....I'm a class act, of course you do.


----------



## robnj772

NolaTigaBait said:


> Uhhhhhh.....You are weird.


It has taken you this long to figure that out ? :jester:


----------



## RIVETER

NolaTigaBait said:


> Put up with me?....I'm a class act, of course you do.


I suppose you are okay.


----------



## ToolBag

knowshorts said:


> WTF you talking about Willis? You can minimize hr's with 14. Please don't tell me your calculating 180 VA per outlet. If the customer isn't gonna pay for it, they are getting the code minimum, which is legal and safe.


No, 180VA/receptacle is not for residential.

But that doesn't negate the fact that if you would normally put (for example) 600sqft of general use receptacles on 1 circuit you can now put 800. Again, that is just an estimate or guideline, you can do it however you like. However, running #12 will allow you to run less homeruns while giving the same ampacity for that area.


----------



## gold

jarhead0531 said:


> I was just tossing back a jab at ya with the layout comment for your previous post and the tone it took, which you continued.
> 
> I'd get all defensive like you did, but I don't see they point, and quite frankly your right, many service techs are dumb asses, but I'm not, so I'm cool with your little rant.
> 
> Don't knock service work though, it does have the benefit of not seeing your boss often, and dealing with many different types of people and problems on a daily basis, keeps it interesting. Just pulling wire kinda stinks in my opinion, I like figuring out interesting problems cause by dumb HO's, handymen, and many times VERY bad electricians.
> 
> I'm sure in your case everything is fine, and all your circuits are sized correctly. But that isn't your average home, or your average home owner, which is what I try to plan for.
> 
> Guessing by all the "Thanks" you got for trying to smack me down I'll just go back to observing and enjoying the occasional nugget of information hiding amongst the BS.
> 
> Rock on homey.


Wow, another electrician looseing interest in the forum because he doesnt agree with the mainstream. Maybe we could have degraded him a little more and told him service techs weren't really electricians and they were all dumb as$es, oh wait ... well we could have told him he was full of sh!t ... oh got that too hang on ... screw if people keep loosing interest everyone can just keep making alts and "thanking" themselves 

Good job guys


----------



## RIVETER

gold said:


> Wow, another electrician looseing interest in the forum because he doesnt agree with the mainstream. Maybe we could have degraded him a little more and told him service techs weren't really electricians and they were all dumb as$es, oh wait ... well we could have told him he was full of sh!t ... oh got that too hang on ... screw if people keep loosing interest everyone can just keep making alts and "thanking" themselves
> 
> Good job guys


If there was a vote...today...you would not win. I am not sure what a mainstream electrician is but I believe that all of us need to learn how to deal with each other.


----------



## gold

RIVETER said:


> If there was a vote...today...you would not win. I am not sure what a mainstream electrician is but I believe that all of us need to learn how to deal with each other.


I agree with that 100%


----------



## slickvic277

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.



One time in Home-Dump-O a guy told me "Electricians are over rated, I rewired my whole house." "I only used #14 wire because #12 is to hard to work with". I asked him where he learned how to do it.....He said he figured it out as he went.


----------



## RIVETER

slickvic277 said:


> One time in Home-Dump-O a guy told me "Electricians are over rated, I rewired my whole house." "I only used #14 wire because #12 is to hard to work with". I asked him where he learned how to do it.....He said he figured it out as he went.


Those are the best kind.:thumbsup:


----------



## micromind

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


Ever notice how your average everyday homeowner knows way more about electricity than us journeymen do? 

Drives me right up the wall sometimes!!

Rob


----------



## RIVETER

micromind said:


> Ever notice how your average everyday homeowner knows way more about electricity than us journeymen do?
> 
> Drives me right up the wall sometimes!!
> 
> Rob


What bothers me most is that they didn't even have to go to school.


----------



## jbfan

Rudeboy said:


> Anything that has to do with where you live is irrelevant to the rest of us.
> :notworthy:


 Not true! 
I'm getting burgers and beer from him this weekend!!!!:thumbsup:

College Football starts this week!:notworthy:


----------



## leland

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.



Save your breath 'DUDE'. They are TOO stupid to heed the warning.

In more than General, I'm talking MAJORITY !!!!!!!!!

"I want that 2000Wt What ever on 220- Coz it is cheaper to run" etc. etc. etc.

Watt they realy want... is it all for free.
MMMMM.... Me too now that I think of it.:icon_wink:


----------



## Shockdoc

I had a union plumber ask me to wire his new build home, .....all in 12/3. I declined the job and he had a union electrician do the work on the side.


----------



## Big John

I may have told this one in a thread about putting your foot in your mouth:

I was working with a buddy doing some general contracting on a house. As soon as you walked in, you knew it was amateur hour: Boxes being buried, Romex run like Silly-String, and oh, yeah: *Everything* wired in #12. Apparently all installed by the homeowner.

A carpenter walks in to start working with us, and I made some comment about "Well, at least they hired a carpenter, because they obviously didn't get an electrician to install this crap."

Turns out the carpenter was also the homeowner who'd done the wiring. :thumbup:

-John


----------



## doubleoh7

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


 

Were you able to get though to him???? Or, did you not try that hard because there is no point?? Sometimes it it just not worth the effort. I only have so much mental capacity and cannot waste it trying to explain something to someone who cannot and does not want to understand.

I'm going to say it again: I use all # 12 with the exception of smoke detector circuits. I will not and do not have to justify it to others on this forum, if it is code minimum or above. I do not knock guys that use #14 on 15 amp circuits. It is the code minimum and is perfectly acceptable. You say tomato, I say orange.:laughing:


----------



## davey

I far prefer 12AWG myself, but not generally as a safety measure. By reducing VD on a 15 amp circuit, it reduces waste heat over time. I know of at least three articles that have shown the ROI from this sort of approach: one in IAEI News, one in Electrical Contractor, and one in a conference proceedings. 

A heavier circuit also is more proof against unexpectedly high ambients. No news here either.

So long as the OC protection is kept to 15 amps, it is reasonable within this framework to back off to 14 AWG for parts of a circuit serving a very limited load. Still, it's not the best workmanship. Too much of a chance that someone might come along later, see 12 AWG leaving the panel, and up the OC protection. 

There's a lovely story about an inspector quizzing a teenage girl, daughter of a contractor, who had wired their house in 12 AWG NM, all cables run untwisted, cleanly stapled, etc. The inspector asked her if she realized that the NEC permits 14 AWG for lots of residential wiring. Having been guided by Richter & Schwan (now Richter, Schwan, & Hartwell), she responded that the Code is a minimum standard. I told the full story in Creighton Schwan's obit in IAEI News, and also in the more extensive biography I put near the end of Creighton's final project, Behind the Code.


----------



## robnj772

davey said:


> I far prefer 12AWG myself, but not generally as a safety measure. By reducing VD on a 15 amp circuit, it reduces waste heat over time. I know of at least three articles that have shown the ROI from this sort of approach: one in IAEI News, one in Electrical Contractor, and one in a conference proceedings.
> 
> A heavier circuit also is more proof against unexpectedly high ambients. No news here either.
> 
> So long as the OC protection is kept to 15 amps, it is reasonable within this framework to back off to 14 AWG for parts of a circuit serving a very limited load. Still, it's not the best workmanship. Too much of a chance that someone might come along later, see 12 AWG leaving the panel, and up the OC protection.
> 
> 
> There's a lovely story about an inspector quizzing a teenage girl, daughter of a contractor, who had wired their house in 12 AWG NM, all cables run untwisted, cleanly stapled, etc. The inspector asked her if she realized that the NEC permits 14 AWG for lots of residential wiring. Having been guided by Richter & Schwan (now Richter, Schwan, & Hartwell), she responded that the Code is a minimum standard. I told the full story in Creighton Schwan's obit in IAEI News, and also in the more extensive biography I put near the end of Creighton's final project, Behind the Code.


:sleeping:

You obviously don't do residential work,and why would the inspector ask a teenage girl anything??


----------



## Speedy Petey

davey said:


> So long as the OC protection is kept to 15 amps, it is reasonable within this framework to back off to 14 AWG for parts of a circuit serving a very limited load. Still, it's not the best workmanship. Too much of a chance that someone might come along later, see 12 AWG leaving the panel, and up the OC protection.


See, this is what bothers me. 
HOW IN THE WORLD could you consider this _"not the best workmanship"_???
As long as the circuit is not too heavily loaded, and is not very long in length, it is perfectly legal and safe. It is also done with the same level of quality and workmanship if it were done with #12 on a 20A breaker. 

Sorry, I just do NOT get the logic.


Oh, and I cannot concern myself with what hack, handyman or home owner might do after I leave. If that were the case why not just wire every general use circuit with #10 and have three devices on each? :whistling2:

The weird story of the teenage girl makes me think you might have had a few drinks before dinner tonight. :laughing:


----------



## davey

Many interesting assumptions there.


----------



## elecpatsfan

deleted post


----------



## BELCO

mattsilkwood said:


> I have never wired a house with 15A circuits. Everything is #12 on 20A breakers, that is just the way it's done around here.
> I can see putting lighting on a 15A but not receptacles.
> When your vacuum is 13A that doesn't leave a lot left.
> 
> Do you guys that use 15A circuits throughout the house get callbacks for breakers tripping?


Never have. But I've only wired about 300.
There are several towns around here where the inspector insist on all 12, even the 3 wire between smoke detectors.


----------



## Speedy Petey

BELCO said:


> There are several towns around here where the inspector insist on all 12, even the 3 wire between smoke detectors.


Seriously? And you just comply with this ABSURD requirement to bow to an inspector on a power trip?

If they have something in writing that's a different story.


----------



## HARRY304E

BELCO said:


> Never have. But I've only wired about 300.
> There are several towns around here where the inspector insist on all 12, even the 3 wire between smoke detectors.





Speedy Petey said:


> Seriously? And you just comply with this ABSURD requirement to bow to an inspector on a power trip?
> 
> If they have something in writing that's a different story.


Looks like the inspector is worried about that heavy load those smoke detectors draw....:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

BELCO said:


> Never have. But I've only wired about 300.
> There are several towns around here where the inspector insist on all 12, even the 3 wire between smoke detectors.


Demand a Code reference. Simple as that.


----------



## Eddies Electric

They demand #12 here also. The bigger city made it a rule and all the little towns around just follow.


----------



## 480sparky

Eddies Electric said:


> They demand #12 here also. The bigger city made it a rule and all the little towns around just follow.



"Just follow", or did they formally adopt it as an amendment? AHJs cannot legally enforce 'just follow' rules.


----------



## Eddies Electric

480sparky said:


> "Just follow", or did they formally adopt it as an amendment? AHJs cannot legally enforce 'just follow' rules.


It's became standard around here... Even the supply houses don't even stock #14.


----------



## 480sparky

Eddies Electric said:


> It's became standard around here... Even the supply houses don't even stock #14.



So what do you mean 'became standard'? Is everyone a lemming, following the pack to the sea?

Or are the AHJs legally adopting amendments to forbid 14?


----------



## Eddies Electric

The only place that adopted no 14 was Tulsa... The other inspectors have learned from Tulsa inspectors and followed suit... Supply houses won't keep stuff that won't sell..


----------



## backstay

I like 4/0 for all branch circuits, that way the HO can't overload it!


----------



## BELCO

Speedy Petey said:


> Seriously? And you just comply with this ABSURD requirement to bow to an inspector on a power trip?
> 
> If they have something in writing that's a different story.


It is absurd but I was only there helping out a relative, It's the only thing I've done there so it wasn't worth a battle. Besides when it was all said and done he thinks I used 12/3 on the detectors.

BTW I like ya'lls forum here. I really got a kick out of some of the pictures of the wiring by jacklegs.


----------



## kaboler

I wouldn't mind having 12awg in my house wired into a 15a breaker. I don't see how you guys think that adding 20a breakers to everything is better, since the whole idea if a breaker is to trip when something happens, and 20a breakers don't trip as easily as a 15a.

Personally, I'd love to have 12awg wire running to my 12 - 13w CFLs. Because 14 couldn't handle the 156w they draw. Wait a minute, I could probably run 18/2.

Even today I went to the supply place and asked about the price difference of a roll of 14/2 and a roll of 12/2 and it was $60. That's a good chunk of money. Code says minimum 12AWG but if I'm only making whips from a junction box to a fixture, 14 is fine. Never done it, seen it everywhere.


----------



## knowshorts

kaboler said:


> 20a breakers don't trip as easily as a 15a.


You can't be serious?


----------



## Big John

knowshorts said:


> You can't be serious?


 At this point, I'm pretty sure he's not serious.

-John


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## 480sparky

Big John said:


> At this point, I'm pretty sure he's not serious.
> 
> -John


I hope not.


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## kaboler

I guess your solution to a tripping breaker is to just increase the size of the breaker?


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## SparkYZ

kaboler said:


> I guess your solution to a tripping breaker is to just increase the size of the breaker?


Just stop.


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## ohmega

knowshorts said:


> You can't be serious?






I think he is! 1st year hotshots dont make typo's:whistling2:


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## Mike in Canada

I did an industrial job with a '12 gage' guy. There were half a dozen 3hp motors to wire up (3 amps at 600V), and he bought all 12 gage. He said "Why use 14 when you can use 12?". My thought, of course, was "Why use 12 when you can use 14?". The kicker, though, was that while he was wiring up the motors with the 12, I was running the control circuits. He had bought 16 gage TEW. I use 14 gage THHN for control circuits because it has thin, slippery insulation so it pulls nice through conduit, and I have it anyway because I run lots of 14 gage for motors and everything else that is 15A or less. So anyway, buddy leaves me with the situation where I have to pull 12 #16TEW through 1/2" conduit. He keeps saying "It's only 16 gage! No problem!" but that crap has thick, rubbery insulation that doesn't pull worth a damn in conduit. You can fit MORE 14 gage THHN in a conduit than you can 16 gage TEW. It took both of us, with lots of lube, three hours to do four pulls a total of about 100 feet. We had to take the conduit apart all over the place to get the pulls done. 
Some people just don't get it.


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## troy webb

You will need to check with the AHJ beacuse now most cities in Texas have outlawed #14 awg


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## Josue

Sorry man, but I couldn't not do this.
:laughing:


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## MDShunk

troy webb said:


> You will need to check with the AHJ beacuse now most cities in Texas have outlawed #14 awg


:laughing::laughing:

Wow, you need to get out more. Way more.


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## reddog552

*No #14*

#12 or larger required in Belleville Il.


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## NolaTigaBait

reddog552 said:


> #12 or larger required in Belleville Il.


Yeah, that #14 is such a fire hazard...freaking idiots...


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## captkirk

Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


 Nothing is better than explaining to them that maybe they should install gfcis in their kids bathroom recepts.....! I love it when they look at me like im trying to sell them a vacume cleaner or something......


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## davey

GFCIs for kid protection? How about tamper-resistant?

GFCIs certainly do make kids safer, but remember, Class A (4-6 mA) is to protect healthy adult males.


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## rexowner

10 AWG for all receptacles and Category 8 for all comms circuits for me...


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## Johncin

Here in Illinois too


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## Johncin

Johncin said:


> Here in Illinois too


As far as 20a recept circuits are installed here


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## JmanAllen

Not 100% sure about all if Okla but most citys I have worked in don't let you use 14. But then again some of the city's don't let you us MC either

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## robnj772

JmanAllen said:


> Not 100% sure about all if Okla but most citys I have worked in don't let you use 14. But then again some of the city's don't let you us MC either
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Well that's about as gay as this thread is old

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## rnr electric

jarhead0531 said:


> Thats all fine and dandy but I don't do new construction, and even if I did I'd pass the associated cost along to the customer.
> 
> As a service tech running a couple new circuits for the customer the price difference in materials will be under $20, which THEY PAY, and is only a TINY fraction of the total cost of the service.
> 
> Even in a new construction home the price difference between doing it all in 12 vs 14 would still be well under 1k. Granted in the ultra competitive market that new construction is that could be the difference between getting the gig, and going hungry.
> 
> Never had a problem with box fill, guess I just plan my layout better than you....


 wrong here. i just dropped 18k feet into a house. that was 12/2 and 12/3 combined though. only about 2500 of 12/3. no #14 at all. my point is this, when bidding a job that extra 1000-2000 dollars counts for alot. BTW i try not to use 14 on any custom home at all only tract type homes, NOT that i have no faith in it but it is a selling point ONLY, customers feel like they are getting a better product, and in reality they are, because it is a larger guage wire, but as far as protection is concerned, it is not any safer than #14..IMO


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## rnr electric

JmanAllen said:


> Not 100% sure about all if Okla but most citys I have worked in don't let you use 14. But then again some of the city's don't let you us MC either
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 IMO ONLY.. that just shows the lack of qualified inspections process here.I know of very few people that have ACTUALLY used #14 that do not think it has its place in our industry. and should be used accordingly


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## HARRY304E

rnr electric said:


> wrong here. i just dropped 18k feet into a house. that was 12/2 and 12/3 combined though. only about 2500 of 12/3. no #14 at all. my point is this, when bidding a job that extra 1000-2000 dollars counts for alot. BTW i try not to use 14 on any custom home at all only tract type homes, NOT that i have no faith in it but it is a selling point ONLY, customers feel like they are getting a better product, and in reality they are, because it is a larger guage wire, but as far as protection is concerned, it is not any safer than #14..IMO


That is a good selling point...:thumbup:


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## Rong

*Big is better.*



Speedy Petey said:


> Had a customer yesterday proudly tell me he re-wired is own house. Yup, he used all #12 presumably 'cause it was safer, but he only used 14/3 for the 3-way switches because _<direct quote>_ _"that's all it needed"_.
> 
> I get tired of trying to explain to people how stupid they are, especially when they look at me like I am trying to sell them something.


 Well everyone has a "friend" that wants you to come over and fix something they did and cannot complete the job for one reason or another. This guy wired his basement installed the boxes flush with the studs..installed 3/4 inch barn siding and then cut his wires about 3 inches long. Which was 10 gauge what a mess..basically I told him he was one his own on this one! Or another "friend" who thought #14 was to expensive so he went to wally world bought a #16 gauge dropcord cut off the ends and proceeded to wire his lighting and recpt's with it. Then he asks do you think this wire is warmer than it should be. True story. Oh it was "protected" by a 30 amp breaker to boot!


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## Josue

Josue said:


> Sorry man, but I couldn't not do this.
> :laughing:


Again.:laughing:


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## Cletis

*mission*

maybe there on a mission to reduce I^2R losses ?


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## 480sparky

Cletis said:


> maybe there on a mission to reduce I^2R losses ?



No, I²R losses. :whistling2:


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## Cletis

*?*

How'd you do that??


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## frenchelectrican

480sparky said:


> No, I²R losses. :whistling2:





Cletis said:


> How'd you do that??


The *²* ??

C'est simple hit Alt key and hold it then type 0178 it will come up with that one.

Mine French keyboard allready have one.

Just don't break your eyeball when you see the keyboard arrangement is diffrent.










It will be located at left of #1/& key that what I used often 

Merci,
Marc


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