# One Man Signatory Contractors



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Are there any?How do you set your company up?In this jurisdiction,you're not supposed to hold an active contractors license and an active union ticket at the same time.I'm told it is not impossible,but difficult to do this,perhaps having a spouse hold the contractors license,while making the other one " a designated employee".Some say it is not allowed,though occasionally tolerated or looked the other way at,and is possibly a local-by-local situation.I'd like to maintain my union benefits and retirement.Starting out,it would be difficult to afford another employee,even part-time.Any thoughts,insight,or advice?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

ibuzzard said:


> Are there any?How do you set your company up?In this jurisdiction,you're not supposed to hold an active contractors license and an active union ticket at the same time.I'm told it is not impossible,but difficult to do this,perhaps having a spouse hold the contractors license,while making the other one " a designated employee".Some say it is not allowed,though occasionally tolerated or looked the other way at,and is possibly a local-by-local situation.I'd like to maintain my union benefits and retirement.Starting out,it would be difficult to afford another employee,even part-time.Any thoughts,insight,or advice?


Check with your local.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

IMO the intent of this was a by product of the big contractors and the union trying to STOP members from going in business.

It seems to me that many locals have rules that SEEM to hamper small shops getting their foot in the door. Not sure who spear heads this.

Our local is very small contractor friendly for the most part, but these changes have only happened in the last 20-25 years.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

ibuzzard said:


> In this jurisdiction,you're not supposed to hold an active contractors license and an active union ticket at the same time.


I have heard of some DUMBASS rules before, but that is at the top of the list.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

You might have the rules mixed up a bit. The union will frown on a man who is working off the books and having a company that competes with signatory contractors. As far as having a ticket and starting your own business, that's the name of the game and shouldn't be a problem. From talking to guys who have done it, I think the recommended way is to put the business in the wife's name and keep yourself as an employee. It's best to talk to your local B.A. and get the facts then make your decision. Good luck.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> You might have the rules mixed up a bit. The union will frown on a man who is working off the books and having a company that competes with signatory contractors. As far as having a ticket and starting your own business, that's the name of the game and shouldn't be a problem. From talking to guys who have done it, I think the recommended way is to put the business in the wife's name and keep yourself as an employee. It's best to talk to your local B.A. and get the facts then make your decision. Good luck.


 
That way when she gets fed up of you working all the time she leaves and takes 1/2 the business.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Just make sure your half is big enough. More about bennies. I know some guys who did the business thing and didn't contribute to their benefit plan due to being an owner and then 10 years later after the business fails then they are out 10 years. That's why I recommend getting the facts on your home locals benefit plan then make your decision on what suits you best.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*0ne man signotory contractors*

The rule is ridiculous, my local states .no member shall himself beccome a contractor while subject to employment by contractors working under terms of this agreement. This is listed as an Employers right . But in this case who would be the employer. I think a good lawyer would have a field day with that kind of language seems it can be interpurted different ways.

Anyhow its kept many out of business unless they go the my wife electric route. They put the business in the wife's name but when you check the corp records at the state there the president .

Our business manager promised 2 man shops that was in 93 we have tons of small shops but no new language.

The guy whois president of his wife's firm belongs to neca maybe thats how it's done.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> The union will frown on a man who is working off the books and having a company that competes with signatory contractors.


This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


it does to me.
The local does not appreciate it's members working off the books for themselves (either legally or on the side), when they compete with union shops. It takes work from member shops.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> The union will frown on a man who is working off the books and having a company that competes with signatory contractors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying Brian....

...but..

Let's analyze it...

How does a man have a company and work off the books while competing w/signatory contractors?

Is it really a company?
Is it really competition?


Maybe my response should have have along the lines of :
- Does not compute! :no:
- That's ironic! :laughing:

...maybe the smileys would have helped?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Celtic said:


> This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



Joe blow works for abc union electric. Joe also does sidework. Joes friend has a car shop and gets 3 bids from contractors. Joe comes in and says " I will do it for less at night". Contractor finds out he lost to a guy that is working off the books during the day and working for less at night. That is where the problem lies. Some locals look the other way on the small jobs depending on market share, but when you compete with a signatory it's a whole different ball game.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

If a member feels he or she is ready to start a contracting business. All they have to do is go to the hall and sign the paperwork and like magic your a contractor.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

We are loosing track of the original post. He wants to be a one man signatory contractor. I am assuming that would be owner working and paying all dues and benefits. The reason I posted the language from my lu was to show how that language is being to prevent members from being signatory not working at night.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

N PHILLY KID said:


> We are loosing track of the original post. He wants to be a one man signatory contractor. I am assuming that would be owner working and paying all dues and benefits. The reason I posted the language from my lu was to show how that language is being to prevent members from being signatory not working at night.


Let's keep the man that wants to get ahead down. Is this driven by the LU or the NECA contractors?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Joe blow works for abc union electric. Joe also does sidework. Joes friend has a car shop and gets 3 bids from contractors. Joe comes in and says " I will do it for less at night". Contractor finds out he lost to a guy that is working off the books during the day and working for less at night. That is where the problem lies. Some locals look the other way on the small jobs depending on market share, but when you compete with a signatory it's a whole different ball game.



I understand 2.08, the whole "Small Works Program" and the Florida Initiative [aka CW/CE]....
The part I am having an "issue" with is:
_...working off the books and having a company....
_
Why would a bonafide EC chose to do this?
Why go through the hassle of being legit only to operate illegitimately?
[I'm sure it happens - no debate there]
What is the benefit?
A few sheckles that probably won't even offset the costs of insurance and bonding?

Do you see what I am conveying?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

ibuzzard said:


> Are there any?How do you set your company up?In this jurisdiction,you're not supposed to hold an active contractors license and an active union ticket at the same time.I'm told it is not impossible,but difficult to do this,perhaps having a spouse hold the contractors license,while making the other one " a designated employee".Some say it is not allowed,though occasionally tolerated or looked the other way at,and is possibly a local-by-local situation.I'd like to maintain my union benefits and retirement.Starting out,it would be difficult to afford another employee,even part-time.Any thoughts,insight,or advice?





drsparky said:


> Check with your local.


Which is actually the best advice.....


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I understand 2.08, the whole "Small Works Program" and the Florida Initiative [aka CW/CE]....
> The part I am having an "issue" with is:
> _...working off the books and having a company....
> _
> ...



You have to read the first post. The guy thought there was a problem of holding a ticket and a contractor license. Just explaining that it's not a problem if it's done the proper way. I don't understand your issue. I can't answer your question as to why someone would do that, you would have to ask them.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

N PHILLY KID said:


> The rule is ridiculous, my local states .no member shall himself beccome a contractor while subject to employment by contractors working under terms of this agreement. This is listed as an Employers right . But in this case who would be the employer. I think a good lawyer would have a field day with that kind of language seems it can be interpurted different ways.
> 
> Anyhow its kept many out of business unless they go the my wife electric route. They put the business in the wife's name but when you check the corp records at the state there the president .
> 
> ...



That language is saying what I am saying. You either are a worker or an owner, you can't be both. That language is not designed to keep a union guy from opening a 1 man shop. You can have a 1 man, 2 man or a thousand man shop as long as you are signatory. You simply can't be working under an agreement then competing against the guys that are signatory.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> That language is saying what I am saying. You either are a worker or an owner, you can't be both. .


If you CAN'T be both how is that suppose to work you pay all your dues and benefits but can work to generate income. Seems logical:blink:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> If you CAN'T be both how is that suppose to work you pay all your dues and benefits but can work to generate income. Seems logical:blink:



When I say you can't be both meaning you can't sign the book and go out to work under an agreement and also be a contractor. Of course if you own the business you can be a worker. Like Drsparky said check with your local they will explain the difference.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Our local allows you to work for two years by yourself before you have to hire someone to work.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*one man signatory contractors*

I wish what Loose neutral is saying applied to my local. But if you want to be a signatory contractor and work in that buisiness the agreement must be signed by some one other than you. I was told this by 3 different business managers,same local , once in 1985,once in 1992,once in 1994.

Since then I have seen no change in the language.

I have seen other agreements from other locals that spell out the number of men you can have with a working owner, I think local 46 spells out that the owner can work in ther residential agreement .

But I live in the land of my wife electric .


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

rewire said:


> Our local allows you to work for two years by yourself before you have to hire someone to work.



Wow. I know a couple of one man shops. You should be able to hire how you like. That's a big con.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Wow. I know a couple of one man shops. You should be able to hire how you like. That's a big con.


Is it dictated how long you must keep that new hire?

:whistling2:

[Maybe directed at the wrong person, but it's the point that is being made]


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Wow. I know a couple of one man shops. You should be able to hire how you like. That's a big con.


 One man shops are the Bane of the electrical industry. The union doesn't need a bunch of one man shops driving down the wage Imagine if everyone in the local decided to be a one man show how long before their would be no union and with no union wages would go down the tubes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> One man shops are the Bane of the electrical industry. The union doesn't need a bunch of one man shops driving down the wage Imagine if everyone in the local decided to be a one man show how long before their would be no union and with no union wages would go down the tubes.


And you are making assumption based on?


I know plenty of one man shops that charge the going rate or more. They like to eat, fish golf, drive fast cars just like the rest of us. Many are so busy the charge above the going rate as the customers like having the owner doing the work in their house or residence.

Not everybody has a son or son's to help or assist and HOPEFULLY take the reigns one day.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

brian john said:


> And you are making assumption based on?


Look at any area that has a strong union presence against an area that does not and compare wages


> I know plenty of one man shops that charge the going rate or more. They like to eat, fish golf, drive fast cars just like the rest of us. Many are so busy the charge above the going rate as the customers like having the owner doing the work in their house or residence.


 who sets the bar for the "going " rate,you would probably find a greater number who don't


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> Look at any area that has a strong union presence against an area that does not and compare wages


What does that have to do with a one man union shop? 





> who sets the bar for the "going " rate,you would probably find a greater number who don't



The market

Not that it matters but 

are you in business? (I thought you were)
are you union shop?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

rewire said:


> One man shops are the Bane of the electrical industry. The union doesn't need a bunch of one man shops driving down the wage Imagine if everyone in the local decided to be a one man show how long before their would be no union and with no union wages would go down the tubes.



As far as I'm concerned the union needs any size shops they can get. The one man shop still pays the bills like the big shops. Your assumptions are really baseless, because that scenario could nor would ever happen.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> As far as I'm concerned the union needs any size shops they can get. The one man shop still pays the bills like the big shops. Your assumptions are really baseless, because that scenario could nor would ever happen.


Logically it would seem more shops, be they one man or 1,000 men, would be a benefit for the IBEW.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Like the previous discussion on small works, if we had more one or two man shops we probably would have more market share in the small works market.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like the previous discussion on small works, if we had more one or two man shops we probably would have more market share in the small works market.


That's what I was thinking too. Seems to me that the one man signatories (even small signatories) are going after a completely different batch of work than the average union contractor. Sounds like an excellent way to increase market share, if that's the goal.


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> If a member feels he or she is ready to start a contracting business. All they have to do is go to the hall and sign the paperwork and like magic your a contractor.


Probably not that easy. What about the bonding they will want, that won't be cheap.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

knaack134 said:


> Probably not that easy. What about the bonding they will want, that won't be cheap.


The union requires more bonding than the state?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

what would be the benefit to being a 1 man union shop?

most one man shops focus on jobs that take 1 man..,.will the really utilize the additional union labor available to them?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

knaack134 said:


> Probably not that easy. What about the bonding they will want, that won't be cheap.





BadSplice said:


> The union requires more bonding than the state?



The bond the union requires is to ensure the mans' bennies are paid in the event the EC goes belly-up w/o making the proper contributions to the mans funds.


The cost of the bond [at least here in NJ] is relatively cheap...but is dependent on the number of men the bond will cover.

For a bond of 50k - which would cover appx. 1 month of payments for 6 men - it as quoted to me at about $60 [or was it $600 ????].

Either way....it's peanuts when factored over 12 months.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

oldman said:


> what would be the benefit to being a 1 man union shop?


...maybe in a maint. contract position at a corporation's HQ or facilities where 1 man is needed randomly at multiple locations?





oldman said:


> most one man shops focus on jobs that take 1 man..,.will the really utilize the additional union labor available to them?


If they want to bid bigger jobs....or have a backlog of jobs they want done [or the client wants done!]....or just want to up their own "per hour" ~ they will.

I have actually worked for a "one-man shop".....for about a year or so.
One day working at a hospital swapping motors out....the next doing a 200A service on a house....a few stores in a few malls...etc.

I guess it was whatever he could get.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...maybe in a maint. contract position at a corporation's HQ or facilities where 1 man is needed randomly at multiple locations?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


most 1 man shops don't want the larger project...nor do they have the bankroll to cover $3k/man/week on them...

nor do they want the headaches of worrying about employees...

otherwise they wouldn't be 1 man shops:laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I know a few who just got tired of working for others. They start there own company and yes it does take money to do this tools, bonds, insurance. They mainly do small tenant fit outs, service work even residential work. When they need a hand they put a call in. I see nothing wrong with this practice at all. As a matter of fact, I think out of all the funds we have, we should have one to help a brother start a business. We spend lots of cash to train these guys, why not help them start a business. A lot of business's start small with a guy and a van and grow to whatever. The IBEW should be more than willing to train these guys to be contractor's cause we all know we need more.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

oldman said:


> what would be the benefit to being a 1 man union shop?
> 
> most one man shops focus on jobs that take 1 man..,.will the really utilize the additional union labor available to them?


If you worked 10 years as a union electrician, I would hope if you started your own business it would be union.. Why not gain the market share of the small works? If they get a bigger job they have access to the highly trained labor force.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> If you worked 10 years as a union electrician, I would hope if you started your own business it would be union.. Why not gain the market share of the small works? If they get a bigger job they have access to the highly trained labor force.


Ding ding ding ding! You're right about that. Nothing like a temp service full of specially trained men at your beck and call.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Working capital?
Just become a signartory contractor. 

But why as a 1 man shop? Especially if most locals discourage it?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

That is a nice benefit. Get big job and get as many men as you need. Finish big job reduce manpower.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

oldman said:


> Working capital?
> Just become a signartory contractor.
> 
> But why as a 1 man shop? Especially if most locals discourage it?



You have to start somewhere. IMO most locals don't discourage it. They just don't promote it.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*One man signatory contractor*

I agree with loose neutral on the idea of a fund, most locals have market recovery. May be a percentage of the fund could be used as low interest loans to help those starting in return for them doing certain types of work.

Lets face the fact, is there any local with no members out of work? Probably not yet the I O continues with iniatitives that bring more people , more people to be unemployed. It seems to me that the IO should include Member Shops in these small works programs .Ways to get existing members involved in business. It seems like the IBEW goes out of it's way for prospective members while leaving it's long term members stranded with lack of imformation .

An International Small shop Agreement.If prevents the LU from discouraging people.

Any way To get ED HILL in the forum?.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

N PHILLY KID said:


> Any way To get ED HILL in the forum?.


I sent him an email invitation over a year ago, along with some other questions, and got no reply. Shows how we rate.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I sent him an email invitation over a year ago, along with some other questions, and got no reply. Shows how we rate.


THEY dont pay any attention to small signatory contractors( They didnt when I belonged), What makes you so special:jester:.

WHY educate them, They know everything :yes: when they pay me 250 k a year then I will consult with them .


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