# IR Scanning of 500 pieces of equipment



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

jza said:


> I have a client requesting I perform IR scanning throughout his entire facility. He has a strict budget. I've contacted several subcontractors that specialize in this, and so far it puts us over budget after my mark-up and labor.
> 
> My question is, I have little to no experience in this field, but can rent the Milwaukee camera for about $89.00 a day. Is it reasonable to expect that this work could be handled by a component electrician opening panels, and a tech savvy apprentice operating the camera? I would fall right into budget doing it this way. Is there more to operating a thermal imager than meets the eye?


 Anybody can look into the IR camera, interpreting the results for that much equipment takes someone that knows what they are doing. Basically anybody can run EMT, install NM, ETC. but what are the results?

Properly done that is a weeks worth of work.

Then the report depending on the number discrepancies properly done is 4-6 hours.

With proper PPE a trained IR Tech.

Proper Cost $9,500.00

Tell the cheap bastird to get off his wallet.

When you pay peanuts you get monkeys.


For what it is worth NO.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

That's in line with what we'd charge for it, and that would assume that they supplied the labor to open equipment. We don't cross the AFB. 

Quite frankly, I would sub this out. If only because a "tech savy apprentice running a camera" isn't going to give you nearly the same results as someone who knows what they're looking at. If he doesn't understand reflected temperature, if he doesn't understand emissivity, if he doesn't infrared opacity, he's gonna miss or incorrectly flag a lot of stuff and that leaves the customer with a substandard survey, and leaves you with a lot of liability.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

If you price it cheap and do it half ass from the start he's going to expect that price every time he needs it done. Tell him what it REALLY costs to do it properly. 

500 pieces of equipment is no small task, if he can't come up with the money to do it right, it just means he has his priorities mixed up.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

You definitely need good equipment, calibrated properly and used by specially trained and tested technicians.

Otherwise, there's no point in even doing it. If his budget is too low to do the whole facility, just do half the facility now and the other half when next years preventative maintenance budget starts over.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree 100% with BA and BJ, there is more to IR scans than taking a photo.


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## Paulusgnome (Mar 28, 2009)

In my previous job, I worked as technical sales engineer for a distributor of electrical products - circuit breakers, contactors, etc.
One of the things we used to get far too often was cheap people doing their own IR surveys and then complaining that the likes of thermal overload relays were showing up as hot. It was then explained to them that these items are supposed to run hot, and that the IR scans needed to be interpreted by someone who knew what they were looking at.
So no, you cannot do this yourself if you are not skilled in interpreting the scans correctly.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Paulusgnome said:


> ...One of the things we used to get far too often was cheap people doing their own IR surveys and then complaining that the likes of thermal overload relays were showing up as hot....


 Got a call about a 5kV autotransformer starter that was going into meltdown; they'd done an IR scan that showed parts at many hundreds of degrees. 

Went out there and did the survey; there were cabinet heaters hidden in the back that had never been turned off. On the thermogram the exposed-element just showed up as a white-hot spot of about 400°


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks guy. I will source this out.

Best idea so far is splitting the project into two. This isn't a real budget, more of a cap that I need to remain under to avoid the job going to open tender.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's in line with what we'd charge for it, and that would assume that they supplied the labor to open equipment. We don't cross the AFB.
> 
> Quite frankly, I would sub this out. If only because a "tech savy apprentice running a camera" isn't going to give you nearly the same results as someone who knows what they're looking at. If he doesn't understand reflected temperature, if he doesn't understand emissivity, if he doesn't infrared opacity, he's gonna miss or incorrectly flag a lot of stuff and that leaves the customer with a substandard survey, and leaves you with a lot of liability.


Just a few weeks ago I was put through a level 1 thermography class by my employer. Going in I thought that it was point and shoot look for whats hot.

Then I was taught about emissivity, which if set wrong can make anything look like a problem, opacity, reflected temp, etc. Not only those settings but actually understanding the patterns that you see to know what the actual problem is takes quite a bit of time to actually master.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> Got a call about a 5kV autotransformer starter that was going into meltdown


I was working in an MCC recently and some of the motors have those on them.(These are 480 tho)

It was my first time seeing them.

Do you see them very often?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

For 480V, I think the most common starter I see after VFDs is probably wye-delta. Maybe half the MV motors we see have some sort of reduced-voltage starting. Most of the older ones seem to be autotransformer. Most of the new ones are solid-state. The neatest one I've seen was a 6k HP that had a saline resistor: Movable electrodes inserted into a giant tank of salt water.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jza said:


> I have a client requesting I perform IR scanning throughout his entire facility. He has a strict budget. I've contacted several subcontractors that specialize in this, and so far it puts us over budget after my mark-up and labor.
> 
> My question is, I have little to no experience in this field, but can rent the Milwaukee camera for about $89.00 a day. Is it reasonable to expect that this work could be handled by a component electrician opening panels, and a tech savvy apprentice operating the camera? I would fall right into budget doing it this way. Is there more to operating a thermal imager than meets the eye?


Yes, a lot more than meets the eye. You'll be guessing a lot and that is not what they are paying you for.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> Maybe half the MV motors we see have some sort of reduced-voltage starting. Most of the older ones seem to be autotransformer. .


 The ones I saw are from the early 70s



Big John said:


> The neatest one I've seen was a 6k HP that had a saline resistor: Movable electrodes inserted into a giant tank of salt water.


 I don't have no idea what you are talking about.

But, It sounds cool.:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> ...I don't have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> But, It sounds cool.:laughing:


 :thumbup: Liquid rheostat. Real simple way to limit a whole lot of power.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> :thumbup: Liquid rheostat. Real simple way to limit a whole lot of power.


I did a quick read on them.

Pretty neat.


_In all but the largest, the "dippers," or moving contacts, are moved in and out of the liquid; but in the largest models (viz., up to and exceeding 2,000 h.p.), the plates are fixed and the liquid is caused to rise by means of an electrically driven pump._


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Big John said:


> :thumbup: Liquid rheostat. Real simple way to limit a whole lot of power.


I read that this was the earliest form of dimmer too, used in theatrical lighting.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Big John said:


> For 480V, I think the most common starter I see after VFDs is probably wye-delta. Maybe half the MV motors we see have some sort of reduced-voltage starting. Most of the older ones seem to be autotransformer. Most of the new ones are solid-state. The neatest one I've seen was a 6k HP that had a saline resistor: Movable electrodes inserted into a giant tank of salt water.


I use to service a boat load of large motor starters at 480 better than 75% were Wye/Delta, then Auto Transformer. Had a few that utilized a pony motor to get them spinning.


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## nervous (Nov 13, 2012)

Thermal imaging is something that is essential for large facilities. If the customer is on a budget then do half the job first and then the other half later when they can budget it. It can become a yearly preventative job. It can be dangerous taking the covers off the panels because some of these covers have not been off in many years. 
Just remember that if you scan this facility and a large motor or equipment burns up due to a loose lug or weakened wire, the customer will want to know why it was not listed on the IR review as critical. Another part of the IR review is to check and note all code violation found in each electrical room that needs to be addressed.


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## DriveGuru (Jul 29, 2012)

Awg-Dawg said:


> The ones I saw are from the early 70s
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That setup is actually still pretty common with old large motors, but they are wound rotor motors, and the saline tank is limiting the current to the wound rotor, not the actual phase current to the motor


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