# Not sure if this is taking advantage!



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

I want to be an electrician someday. I am currently on placement after I finished a short program in college. 

I am currently working at a small electrical company in Vaughan, Ontario. It's my first company, so I have nothing to compare it to. I have only worked there for a week. 

I noticed right away that we don't have a punch-in system set up.
We have had to arrive at the company at 6:30 in the morning, load and unload materials for 30-45 minutes and then head to a job site in Hamilton which takes us an hour to get to. We don't get paid for this. We don't get paid until we arrive at the job site. Is this the norm in the electrical world? 

I mean, I get to work at 6:30 everyday and don't arrive at the job site until 8:30. I am done at 4:30pm. But again, I don't get paid for the commute back to the company. 

This to me, seems like BS, but this is also my first construction job. 

Also, if you are rewiring an old home, would you still wear your hardhat? all the guys on site who i have worked with don't. Let me know!


----------



## Crack Wireman (Aug 22, 2014)

You're getting taken advantage of. When you show up and start loading and unloading material you're on the clock.


----------



## Walkman (Aug 16, 2014)

I don't know why this thread is in "workplace safety" but...

I don't know if Canada has unions or not but this is probably one of the reasons they exist.

Of course you are being taken advantage of, that's the way some contractors are. The bottom line is $. If you find it unfair and the employer doesn't care then maybe he will find someone else who wants that job under his terms. You are new so you might not want to make waves right out of the gate. Get a feel for what's going on and why. Maybe he really can't afford to pay you for your "non-productive" time and keep the business open or maybe he wants new furniture instead of keeping content employees 'cause you are replaceable. You gotta figure out what's really going on and base your reaction on the facts at hand.

I know one thing for sure though, you don't wanna walk into a new environment and upset the applecart; that will surely backfire as you will be looked at as a troublemaker and once you get that brand it doesn't come off.

Be careful, work hard, learn lots!


----------



## Canadian sparky (Sep 19, 2011)

You're workin for a mickeymouse contractor...getting to the shop to load up is a common tactic with the residential contractors in the gta..without getting paid...the thing is no one says or does anything..if you speak up you will be lookin for another job..but if you and ALL your co-workers grow a pair and speak up your boss will notice..other than that find a better contractor or better yet check these guys out..
http://www.ibew353.org/
http://www.electricalapprenticeship.ca/


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

It's not uncommon for a lot of smaller commercial/residential shops to expect guys to be at shop in am to help load trucks for the upcoming day. And travel time to and from site isn't always paid time. 

Is this being taken advantage of? No, I don't think it's malicious, it's just part and parcel with that industry. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Like others have said, you need to learn what you can and if or when the time comes to move on, you'll be better prepared.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Thomps said:


> ...Is this being taken advantage of? No, I don't think it's malicious, it's just part and parcel with that industry....


 No way. I worked for a contractor like this. They also did other "non malicious" things like doctoring workers time cards.

There's no business owner out there who's so naive that they don't understand they're taking advantage of employees by not paying them to stock and drive service trucks. What happens if a guy crushes his foot while loading company equipment off-the-clock?

In the US that's a labor-law violation, and I'd bet it is in Canada, too. Run fast from a company that pulls crap like that, they're trying to make their profits off the backs of their workers.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Big John said:


> No way. I worked for a contractor like this. They also did other "non malicious" things like doctoring workers time cards. There's no business owner out there who's so naive that they don't understand they're taking advantage of employees by not paying them to stock and drive service trucks. What happens if a guy crushes his foot while loading company equipment off-the-clock? In the US that's a labor-law violation, and I'd bet it is in Canada, too. Run fast from a company that pulls crap like that, they're trying to make their profits off the backs of their workers.


 Big difference between loading vans in the am and doctoring time cards, no? Most smaller shops won't start billing until guys hit the job site. Not condoning the actions of the employer, just saying that it's not an uncommon practice in that industry


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Thomps said:


> Big difference between loading vans in the am and doctoring time cards, no...?


 No. Either one is expecting workers to labor for free in order to increase your profit margins, and both of those are illegal.

It's not "just something small contractors do." Expecting employees to contribute several man-hours a day worth of uncompensated labor is a really chitty business practice, and I don't for a minute believe that the employer doesn't realize what they're doing.

Nonsense like this is the reason people end up unionizing.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Big John said:


> No. Either one is expecting workers to labor for free in order to increase your profit margins, and both of those are illegal. It's not "just something small contractors do." Expecting employees to contribute several man-hours a day worth of uncompensated labor is a really chitty business practice, and I don't for a minute believe that the employer doesn't realize what they're doing. Nonsense like this is the reason people end up unionizing.




Yes there is john.

I understand what you're saying and I agree with your principle. But my point is that it isn't an uncommon scenario to be expected to arrive at the shop in the am and help load the van before leaving for the site. 

If the op isn't comfortable with it then he can probably offer to meet the guys on site at 8:30?

And to answer his other question, I don't think guys normally hear hardhats in residential rewires or renovations, but not necessarily a bad habit to be in


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What kind of college would place you with an a$$hole like this? He's breaking labour laws. Go back to the college and tell them you want a real job.


----------



## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Big John said:


> No. Either one is expecting workers to labor for free in order to increase your profit margins, and both of those are illegal.
> 
> It's not "just something small contractors do." Expecting employees to contribute several man-hours a day worth of uncompensated labor is a really chitty business practice, and I don't for a minute believe that the employer doesn't realize what they're doing.
> 
> Nonsense like this is the reason people end up unionizing.



I started out in a small shop and never did my employer expect work for free!
We did have to be there 1/2 hr early to receive our work orders for the day while we drank some tar in a cup.
Then the truck loading started always paid time.!
That kind of crap is why it's hard to be competitive in residential .
Be patient ... But get the heck out of there.
Then call the ministry of labour in them after you leave.
Companies like that don't deserve to be in business or have good employees , odd are your not going to learn much or he might have to pay you more!!




Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

quezadaq said:


> I want to be an electrician someday. I am currently on placement after I finished a short program in college.
> 
> I am currently working at a small electrical company in Vaughan, Ontario. It's my first company, so I have nothing to compare it to. I have only worked there for a week.
> 
> ...


 
I hope your employer is paying for the lube


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You don't need a hard hat rewiring a house but one piece of safety gear people forget is safety glasses. I have worked with two guys who have lost sight in an eye because they didn't use them, both residential incidents.


----------



## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

I think Trojans are the only PPE required here. 

Start looking for another job ASAP. Then bring your concerns to your curren employer.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Some companies ask folks to gather a few minutes before they're "on-the-clock". But don't expect them to work or even listen to them until they will be paid.

However, if a crew rolls and someone is late...two or three strikes and you're history.


----------



## shnorse1 (Aug 20, 2014)

In PA and NY atleast if you are riding in the company truck you need to get paid... if you show up at the job in your own vehicle your time starts then... The second you get out of your personal car and either load the truck or get your work orders you should be getting paid... There are big fines coming to that guy... laborboard...


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Thomps said:


> If the op isn't comfortable with it then he can probably offer to meet the guys on site at 8:30?


Give me a break, what planet do you live on? You think the typical lowball scumbag mickey mouse outfit in Ontario is going to agree to that rather than turf the OP? 

I worked for a company that was just like this. It was expected that the clock started AFTER you drove all the way to Oakville from the shop in Brampton. I filled out my time cards with my time starting when I got to the shop. The secretary paid me for it and the owners were too disorganised and dumb to pick up on it.


----------



## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Give me a break, what planet do you live on? You think the typical lowball scumbag mickey mouse outfit in Ontario is going to agree to that rather than turf the OP?
> 
> I worked for a company that was just like this. It was expected that the clock started AFTER you drove all the way to Oakville from the shop in Brampton. I filled out my time cards with my time starting when I got to the shop. The secretary paid me for it and the owners were too disorganised and dumb to pick up on it.


I did something similar to this but my issue was I used to fill overtime hours.only guys in union were allowed to be paid those hours I didnt get the sense in that. we all worked overtime being a non union guy shouldn't be the reason.

So for two years I got paid overtime hours the management didnt realize. One day I get called and am told my salary will be deducted every month until I fully reimburse the money I got paid while working overtime.

This is the first time I felt some fluids in my pants as an adult


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Give me a break, what planet do you live on? You think the typical lowball scumbag mickey mouse outfit in Ontario is going to agree to that rather than turf the OP?  I worked for a company that was just like this. It was expected that the clock started AFTER you drove all the way to Oakville from the shop in Brampton. I filled out my time cards with my time starting when I got to the shop. The secretary paid me for it and the owners were too disorganised and dumb to pick up on it.



L. Sure. I'll give you a break. 

Would the employer fire op for asking to meet at site rather than the shop? I don't know.

It was only a quick suggestion to a situation brought up through discussion.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Some companies ask folks to gather a few minutes before they're "on-the-clock".


So if it's only a "few minutes" why can't they be paid?

You can "ask folks", but if you plan on making it unpaid you must indicate that it's unpaid and thus voluntary the day before the meeting. In other words, you can't ask the morning of the voluntary meeting and expect the employee(s) who declines to attend the meeting to just sit around in the break room and wait without pay. You have to pay him while he waits, or immediately dispatch him to the job in which case he's entitled to immediately be paid. And it doesn't matter if it's just "for a few minutes". 



Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> But don't expect them to work or even listen to them until they will be paid.


This makes absolutely no sense. What idiot would waste their time having a meeting where no one is expected to "work or even listen until they will be paid"? I hope you not suggesting that if you tell them this that somehow it makes it alright, because it doesn't.



Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> However, if a crew rolls and someone is late...two or three strikes and you're history.


What has this got to do with asking an employee to attend a meeting on or off the clock?

Bottom line is, if you ask someone to come in to the shop at a specific time or show up at the job site from their home at a specific time, that is time they go on the clock and start getting paid. It doesn't matter if your late, the forman is late, or theres no material or tools on the job, or the property is inaccessible or any other reason beyond their control. If they get there they are entitled to be paid.

Again, the only way you can get away without paying for a meeting is to make it voluntary. Good luck with that.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

The only way I can see it working is if they're paid a high enough wage to compensate for "loading" time. The bottom line is, if you don't like it, quit!
Go flip burgers, fry fries, stock shelves, whatever. :thumbsup:


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

wendon said:


> The only way I can see it working is if they're paid a high enough wage to compensate for "loading" time.


It doesn't matter what their wage is, that's not the point. The point is what's legal according to the wage and hour laws in your state. How you "see it working" is irrelevant. Not only is there the legal aspect to this argument, but this flip attitude is also one of the reasons why non-union shops are not as attractive as union shops. 



wendon said:


> The bottom line is, if you don't like it, quit!
> Go flip burgers, fry fries, stock shelves, whatever. :thumbsup:


And this kind of arrogance and disrespect for labor is another reason why we lose labor to union shops. It's also the reason good employees go into business for themselves. Ironically, many of these poorly treated past employees will be the very ones you'll be bitching because they underbid you. :laughing:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

More gruel, sir...


----------



## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I worked at a shop where they asked us to be at the shop 15 mins early. There was no work expected, or meetings, or anything like that. It was never really enforced. I think the idea was that if guys are gonna show up and make a coffee, have a smoke, etc then they have a few mins to do that, but at 8 oclock everyone was ready to go start loading truck, get orders, etc; no waiting for the guy just dragging his ass in. Usually I ended up being there about 5 to 8, but didn't smoke or make coffee, so nobody said boo about it. I didn't think is was a terrible system.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Give me a break, what planet do you live on? You think the typical lowball scumbag mickey mouse outfit in Ontario is going to agree to that rather than turf the OP?
> 
> I worked for a company that was just like this. It was expected that the clock started AFTER you drove all the way to Oakville from the shop in Brampton. I filled out my time cards with my time starting when I got to the shop. The secretary paid me for it and the owners were too disorganised and dumb to pick up on it.


I've got a feeling they knew what you were doing but since you had the law on your side and were keeping it quite, so would they.:thumbsup:


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

arminkeller said:


> I worked at a shop where they *asked* us to be at the shop 15 mins early. There was no work expected, or meetings, or anything like that. It was never really enforced. I think the idea was that if guys are gonna show up and make a coffee, have a smoke, etc then they have a few mins to do that, but at 8 oclock everyone was ready to go start loading truck, get orders, etc; no waiting for the guy just dragging his ass in. Usually I ended up being there about 5 to 8, but didn't smoke or make coffee, so nobody said boo about it. *I didn't think is was a terrible system.*


It's not a terrible system. As long as they "_asked_" and not _required_ you to be at the shop 15 minutes earlier then your start/report time. If they _require_, as a condition of employment, for you to be in 15 minutes earlier then they _must pay you_ for that 15 minutes.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Relevant to discussion. 

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/tools/hours/what_counts.php

Outlines what is considered travel/commute time and when working hours actually begin.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

If the OP blew his back out loading material who covers the expense? 

We have to be "Ready" to go to work at 7. 
Boots, tools ect and out the door you better be heading. If there is a shop meeting or directions to be given it is done at 7 am. 
I get there at 6 and drink coffee, I was 30 minutes late once 20 years ago. Even then I called ahead and told the boss.


----------



## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomps said:


> Relevant to discussion.
> 
> http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/tools/hours/what_counts.php
> 
> Outlines what is considered travel/commute time and when working hours actually begin.



Good to know, so the op is being screwed over!



Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


----------



## Ink&Brass (Nov 6, 2013)

Get the hell out of there OP. 

I work for a small company of just a few guys doing multi-rise resi. and commercial. Our boss wants (but by no means does he require) us at work at 6:45-50, but he refuses to talk work or let anyone pick up a tool before the clock strikes 7:00. Work is talked about, planned, and executed on paid time only.

We get paid for travel on longer trips, for at least one full direction per shift/rotation when we work out of town, and if there's any kind of actual work happening on either end of that travel (whether it's our one paid trip or not), you bet we're on the clock, making a wage.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

If the clock starts at 7am, I expect my guys to be ready for work at 7am. Some may have to drive an hour to get to work, some drive 10 min. They never report to the shop, only to the job site. I don't expect my guys to work without getting paid.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've worked on crews where if you stepped up to the morning meeting 15 seconds after 7:00 you were just as late as if you'd shown up at noon. But that type of strictness goes both ways: It also means that come 9:30 break everyone stops dead, even if they're right in the middle of a wire pull or some other complex job. And at 3:30 everyone is already cleaned up and picked up and starts walking to their trucks before 3:31. 

Me, I'm a lot more flexible. I really don't care about being 5 minutes late, or staying 5 minutes after or eating a late lunch, as long as the work is getting done and nobody is waiting on me. I'm not out to screw the company as long as they aren't out to screw me. 

That said, running crews, I can completely understand why foremen are strict, because there are always guys who take advantage.


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't know how many of you are keeping tabs on this thread, but thank you all so much for the feedback! I called my job coach and he said that it is relatively normal for contractors to not pay you until you reach the worksite, despite meeting at the shop at 6:30 to load up the trucks(for 30m-1hr) and commute to the worksite for up to an hour and a half! I was very surprised to hear that some employees accept to work under terms such as these. I feel so cheated and SO tired when I get home. I could use that extra three hours of overtime for myself, thank you!

Even if the company wants to hire me, I plan on moving on as soon as my placement is over.


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks. I can;t understand why my job coaches think it's okay for me to arrive at the shop at 6:30 and not to expect to be paid until 8:30! Insane!


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

it doesn't say anything about unloading/loading materials at the shop before driving to a worksite, lets say. But i think if you meet at the shop to prepare for the day for 30m to an hour you should be getting paid!

Thanks for posting that by the way!


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

Hey! Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I have applied to the union this year and they didn't take me. But I have a question, if i work for a unionized shop driving and loading time is PAID for, right? To me that seems fair. I am going to reapply again next year.


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks Thomps, I understand it's not an uncommon scenario. It is not possible to meet at the worksite, no... I just feel this practice is wrong on so many levels. I am pretty sure there are other contractors that do pay their guys to load up the van and drive it to the worksite too. I'll be trying find one of them to hire me…


----------



## quezadaq (Mar 9, 2014)

Hey arminkeller, thanks for your response. so are there a lot of non union shops that pay their guys to load trucks and drive the service van to and from the worksite?


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

quezadaq said:


> Thanks Thomps, I understand it's not an uncommon scenario. It is not possible to meet at the worksite, no... I just feel this practice is wrong on so many levels. I am pretty sure there are other contractors that do pay their guys to load up the van and drive it to the worksite too. I'll be trying find one of them to hire me&#133;



Yes, there are. Take what you can from your current employer and apply it when you move on. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

the old place i worked at.we were supposed to be there by 7:30, which was when we clocked in, at that time we would load material for the day and take off, I would show up 20 minutes early and make coffee and what not. but was not expected. as long as your ready to go at 7:30


----------



## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Years ago when I was a little more than a greenie in the trade I had one company that pulled that stuff repetitively. We'd meet at the shop load up vans and roll to a job that non-paid loading time bs was there standard practice along with some other bottom barrel industry practices. Some of their larger developments they would have materials delivered. As a snot nosed kid then I was stuck on a development about 1 hour from the shop so one day I overslept and drove directly there and actually beat my boss. After that the whole summer I drove direct to the job made my 8 and went home. 
My recommendation (unless you really like this job) is to keep working it and look for a new one if possible.


----------



## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

A contractor I use to work for back in the day had us do the same, but he said we could meet at the shop at 6:00, load the van and get a free ride to work an hour away or we could just drive ourself to the job site, so to me it wasn't really taking advantage of us because we had options, just curious if your shop will allow you to drive directly to the job site instead of the shop?


----------



## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

If I'm moving company materials I'm on the clock. They don't expect office people to do daily tasks unpaid, what would make a field personal any different?


----------



## samc (Oct 19, 2013)

Youre being hosed but since you are new to electrical stay with this job for now and find a new one. If you can look into your local union. Its the best way to go as far as advancing in this field.


----------



## SdCountySparky (Aug 6, 2014)

BS Thomps



Thomps said:


> It's not uncommon for a lot of smaller commercial/residential shops to expect guys to be at shop in am to help load trucks for the upcoming day. And travel time to and from site isn't always paid time.
> 
> Is this being taken advantage of? No, I don't think it's malicious, it's just part and parcel with that industry. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Like others have said, you need to learn what you can and if or when the time comes to move on, you'll be better prepared.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

SdCountySparky said:


> BS Thomps


?

How so?


----------



## Soviet Hawk (Apr 19, 2014)

In my opinion you are better off ditching that company even before you have a new job. Obviously that is your choice based on financial needs but consider you are maybe picking up on their bad habits and go to a new job to only display the bad habits you learned.

As for the hard hat question you have to refer to your provincial regulations. If workers comp finds out something was dropped on your head and you were not wearing a hard hat then to bad, you don't qualify or it could be an issue tied up in court. Worse comes to worse just phone a government agency who would be able to answer these questions or email so you have it in writing. 

When it comes to safety the best thing is to ask and consider yourself first. Maybe you are holding a ladder for someone and they have tools/material above, you should wear a hard hat in case he drops something. Best case scenario is you hate wearing it, worst case is you don't and something is dropped on your head putting you into a coma.


----------

