# Tapping off of 12-2 with 14-2



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

Tommorow i will be adding 2 wall sconces and a switch to control them. I will be getting power from an outlet which i'm sure will be fed with 12-2.

I will be using roughly 40 feet of wire and i want to use 14-2 to save money and it's easier to work with. And with 2 wall sconces being the only thing on that 14-2 circuit i don't see any issues. No one is going to overload the 14-2 wire.

Hack job? or would you just go with the 12-2.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

That's fine if it's a 15a circuit. If it's a 20a circuit you're going to have to use #12.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Unless you want to change the circuit's OCPD to 15 amps, the Code makes no exception for want you want to do and you must use 12-2 or be in violation. 

So yes the 14-2 will make you a Hackwagon. :laughing:

With that said, we all know that there is theoretically no way the 14-2 would ever be loaded beyond its rating in this case, but it still is against Code. That would be a HUGE liability issue for you if anything goes wrong in the future.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

pawirenut said:


> Tommorow i will be adding 2 wall sconces and a switch to control them. I will be getting power from an outlet which i'm sure will be fed with 12-2.
> 
> I will be using roughly 40 feet of wire and i want to use 14-2 to save money and it's easier to work with. And with 2 wall sconces being the only thing on that 14-2 circuit i don't see any issues. No one is going to overload the 14-2 wire.
> 
> Hack job? or would you just go with the 12-2.



If your doing it to save money IMO you are an idiot. Using 12-2 romex should not break you.
If your doing it because it's easier to work with....man up or go clean houses for a living.
Why not just do a code compliant job and charge the customer for it?


HACK HACK HACKETY HACK!!:laughing::laughing:


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

My boss makes me do that and it drives me NUTS. It's only ok if you change to a 15a breaker. I wish someone would build a recpt that looks like a gfci, but was really a 15a breaker. My boss would but a truckload just for undercabinet lights.
Btw..... Hello Brad , if your reading.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

pawirenut said:


> Tommorow i will be adding 2 wall sconces and a switch to control them. I will be getting power from an outlet which i'm sure will be fed with 12-2.
> 
> I will be using roughly 40 feet of wire and i want to use 14-2 to save money and it's easier to work with. And with 2 wall sconces being the only thing on that 14-2 circuit i don't see any issues. No one is going to overload the 14-2 wire.
> 
> Hack job? or would you just go with the 12-2.


40 ft. of 12-2 isn't that much more money. And while I agree that it isn't likely to be a problem using 14-2 for only a couple of sconces because the load is limited to just the two fixtures, I would still use #12.

On a side note, in Ellijay Georgia, the local code is such that #14 wire is not allowed except on switch legs. I always thought it was a back assward code.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> 40 ft. of 12-2 isn't that much more money. And while I agree that it isn't likely to be a problem using 14-2 for only a couple of sconces because the load is limited to just the two fixtures, I would still use #12.
> 
> On a side note, in Ellijay Georgia, _*the local code is such that #14 wire is not allowed except on switch legs.*_ I always thought it was a back assward code.


So Georgia thinks they can trump NEC requirements? :whistling2::no:


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

mxslick said:


> So Georgia thinks they can trump NEC requirements? :whistling2::no:


...individual states can and often do


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

I always match the wire size when adding onto a circuit. And i'm well aware that the OCP must be downsized to 15a if i use 14-2.

I don't care about the money really the customer pays anyway. 

Just wanted to see if in this rare case where you can almost guarantee that the 14-2 will never be overloaded it would be acceptable. I know it's against code.

I will do it the right way like i always do. That is the reason why people call me anyway because i exceed code minimum.

Case closed.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mxslick said:


> So Georgia thinks they can trump NEC requirements? :whistling2::no:


No Georgia as a whole, just that particular city. But, yes, a municipality is free to adopt and alter any part of the code as they see fit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mxslick said:


> ..............With that said, we all know that there is theoretically no way the 14-2 would ever be loaded beyond its rating in this case,..........


Now way would anyone else in the future ever want to add to those lights and use 14. It'll never happen. Physically impossible.:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JTMEYER said:


> My boss makes me do that and it drives me NUTS. It's only ok if you change to a 15a breaker. I wish someone would build a recpt that looks like a gfci, but was really a 15a breaker. My boss would but a truckload just for undercabinet lights.
> Btw..... Hello Brad , if your reading.



And what circuit might you be using? :001_huh:


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## Slider (Jun 3, 2008)

Is this thread a stinkin joke? This should be on a handyman or diy site


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Even if you change the breaker, it's still a total hack job.

How much money are you going to save by using 14?

I know that 14 is easier to work with but come on man, suck it up.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Slider said:


> Is this thread a stinkin joke? This should be on a handyman or diy site


It just shows the wide variety of knowledge, skill sets, abilities and personal integrity.


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

brian john said:


> It just shows the wide variety of knowledge, skill sets, abilities and personal integrity.


 
Your exactly right that is why this customer was referred to me by another customer i did a job for in this same country club.

Both homes are 1 mill +. 



I should have reworded my origional post. It's not about saving money or making it easier. It was basically more of a point that in rare cases like this the code is overkill.

I gotta watch out for the homeowners grabbing a 8 foot ladder and using one of these to plug in a hair dryer










Some people here take things to literal and read into things way to much


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> That's fine if it's a 15a circuit. If it's a 20a circuit you're going to have to use #12.


An electrician should know that!!!! IT'S IN THE BOOK.:whistling2:


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And what circuit might you be using? :001_huh:


Just what you think I'm useing, call my boss if it bothers ya. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JTMEYER said:


> Just what you think I'm useing, call my boss if it bothers ya. :jester:



Hey, it's his license, not mine. And it's his insurance, not mine.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'll always keep the circuit the same size wiring in it's entirety, it's too easy for someone down the line to upsize the OCPD to the size of the conductor at its origin. I'd say hack if you install 14 on a 12 wired circuit even though it has a downsized breaker. It is compliant however but hack technique.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> I'll always keep the circuit the same size wiring in it's entirety, it's too easy for someone down the line to upsize the OCPD to the size of the conductor at its origin. I'd say hack if you install 14 on a 12 wired circuit even though it has a downsized breaker. It is compliant however but hack technique.


So you don't believe changing wire size for voltage drop? For instance, start a circuit with #8, then drop to #10, then to #12 as the load falls off with distance? I do this often on long outside lighting circuits. Saves a boat load of money.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Hey, it's his license, not mine. And it's his insurance, not mine.


Funny, Thats EXACTLY what I thought. :thumbup: He gets what he wants, I ask once, to make sure i heard him right, then I do what he says. I ain't his momma.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> So you don't believe changing wire size for voltage drop? For instance, start a circuit with #8, then drop to #10, then to #12 as the load falls off with distance? I do this often on long outside lighting circuits. Saves a boat load of money.


I do that, only the other way around. Upsizing the conductor awg.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I'll always keep the circuit the same size wiring in it's entirety, it's too easy for someone down the line to upsize the OCPD to the size of the conductor at its origin. I'd say hack if you install 14 on a 12 wired circuit even though it has a downsized breaker. It is compliant however but hack technique.



So if I run some 480v pole lights in a mall and I'm using 20a circuits, it's hack to use #12 between the breaker and the contactor, then #6 or #4 out to the pole bases, and #10 up the poles themselves?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> So you don't believe changing wire size for voltage drop? For instance, start a circuit with #8, then drop to #10, then to #12 as the load falls off with distance? I do this often on long outside lighting circuits. Saves a boat load of money.


Definetly for commercial work but not for residential. Most electricians serving commercial work know to look for that when replacing, renovating and dealing with OCP devices. I have rarely upsized to 12 wire on residential but that is downstream of the 14 homerun.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow alot of argumentive folks out here tonight.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*PA*

I see PA's point. Would I do it again ..NO...have I done it in past YES.

Is it safe? Probably. Even if someone hacked in 10 more 100 watt fixtures on that switch you still only gonna load that 14 with only 8 or 9 amps. Now, if someone adds a switched outlet and then plugs a space heater in to that. Well.... I think Brian John had some charts on here of ampacity. How long can you run 20 amps through a 14 gauge Cu wire for without damage?? 2.4 years

And yes, we do long runs to post lights and such as well. You always start huge (like a 2/0) then end up with a 12 by the end anyhow. What's the difference in that and what PA just did?? The 2/0 is supposed to be on a 20 amp OCD but some hack will come in and add an outlet on the last post then plug in something big. And if it overloads he will put a 30 or 40 on the 2/0. 

What's the difference in those 2 situations? 

Just askin?


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

Cletis said:


> I see PA's point. Would I do it again ..NO...have I done it in past YES.
> 
> Is it safe? Probably. Even if someone hacked in 10 more 100 watt fixtures on that switch you still only gonna load that 14 with only 8 or 9 amps. Now, if someone adds a switched outlet and then plugs a space heater in to that. Well.... I think Brian John had some charts on here of ampacity. How long can you run 20 amps through a 14 gauge Cu wire for without damage?? 2.4 years
> 
> ...


 
THANK YOU!! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT I'M GETTING AT!

150 watts on a 12-2 wire overkill but i know the code.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

pawirenut said:


> THANK YOU!! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT I'M GETTING AT!
> 
> 150 watts on a 12-2 wire overkill but i know the code.


I've tapped #12 with #14 on outlets when I was a peeon...but once i read the the code , i realized that the "12 inch tap rule" didnt exist...same for #14 switch legs...I know you've established this already, but #12 isnt that much more money.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

pawirenut said:


> THANK YOU!! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT I'M GETTING AT!
> 
> 150 watts on a 12-2 wire overkill but i know the code.



It doest matter wether or not its over KILL it is the code minimum #12 =20 amps not #14.

But if you really want to use # 14 you can just install a circuit breaker panel at the point of your tap and don't forget the 15amp AFCI Breaker:laughing:


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> It doest matter wether or not its over KILL it is the code minimum #12 =20 amps not #14.
> 
> But if you really want to use # 14 you can just install a circuit breaker panel at the point of your tap and don't forget the 15amp AFCI Breaker:laughing:


 

yawnnnnnnnnnnn:wallbash:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I've tapped #12 with #14 on outlets when I was a peeon...but once i read the the code , i realized that the "12 inch tap rule" didnt exist...same for #14 switch legs...I know you've established this already, but #12 isnt that much more money.


Unless it's a fixture whip. It can be as small as #18 and length of 6'


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

pawirenut said:


> yawnnnnnnnnnnn:wallbash:


You kinda asked for it.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Unless it's a fixture whip. It can be as small as #18 and length of 6'


WTF are you talking about?...Why are you telling me this?


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

Mods please lock this thread it's getting blown out of proportion:laughing:



I am using 12-2 (if the outlet is 12-2) i know the code i never rig or hack things up. If i was a hack i doubt i'd be working on million $ + homes in a country club and on the home of the president of the country club association.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> WTF are you talking about?...Why are you telling me this?



A UL listed fixture whip....:whistling2:


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

My opinion is, if one takes a 20a circuit, changes the breaker to a 15a just so they can run 40' of 14-2 is nuts. 

Plus it's a million dollar home? I'd charge em all the money for that #12:thumbup:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Honestly, delete this thread. I'd be ashamed to have asked a similar question.

Imagine if you did the installation without consulting ET first.

:wallbash:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> A UL listed fixture whip....:whistling2:


 No chit...I was wondering why he thought that I needed to know this info.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> A UL listed fixture whip....:whistling2:


I still cheat and make my own with #14 scraps and steel 3/8 grerenfield.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> No chit...I was wondering why he thought that I needed to know this info.


6' tap of smaller wires, you mentioned 12" and #14:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Unless it's a fixture whip. It can be as small as #18 and length of 6'



Fixture whips are not building wire... they're fixture wires, covered in A402.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> 6' tap of smaller wires, you mentioned 12" and #14:whistling2:


Yeah dummy...to a receptacle...


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

jza said:


> Honestly, delete this thread. I'd be ashamed to have asked a similar question.



Ahh i was waiting for the resident troll to chime in.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

pawirenut said:


> yawnnnnnnnnnnn:wallbash:


 Your eather a professional Electrician do at least the code minimum or you are not the fact that you even thought about doing that is scary..

After your done patching and all is comleat what will you do when the inspector makes you rip it all out there goes your profit..

Oh unless you dont pull permits and have your jobs inspected.

I would call that unprofessional:no:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

pawirenut said:


> Ahh i was waiting for the resident troll to chime in.


Sorry dude. Bad enough you already had to post on here asking for help quoting the job. Now you need this forum to help justify your hack work? No thanks.

I call 'em like I see 'em, a professional electrician should _not_ be asking stuff like this. A first year apprentice would know better.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

This thread was doomed right from the original post.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yeah dummy...to a receptacle...


A extremely busy dummy working six days a week, how bout you?


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