# 4" Old Work Recessed Cans



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

How big is the room..? I have four inch in two of my bedrooms but they are pretty small... Im not a fan of four inch for lighting up a kitchen... Your kind of limited to a 50 watt bulb. with a five you can go to up to 75 watts. Is there any other lighting in the room..? Undercounters, flush mounts..? If not you kind of need to light up the work spaces other wise they will have some bad shadowing if the lights are behind the person. You will need to position them so that the light is centered between the countertop and where the person will be standing.... 
I think a lot of ECs mess up kitchens because most guys dont spend much time in there and they dont really get where the light needs to be. If you dont have any other lighting in the kichen and the HO is on a budget stick to lighting the work surfaces first then general lighting . If there is undercounters, and some other lights like pendants, or flush mounts you can use the high hats in more of a general lighting mode... and space them a little more symetrical to the room. Halo makes a really nice 5 inch can, the bulb attaches to the trim first than you install the trim to the can with the spring legs, like the ones you find on exhaust fan trims... I think they are really nice. The bulb pretty much takes up all the space and you cant see into the can at all... And they arent expensive compared to other brands and they are all metal.. Whats not to love about them. Plus with the five inch cans you have more room to work in to snake in your wires and to drill across beams..


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I have always been told to install the light 18" off the surface it is intended to light up if it's a wall/cabinet/etc. Countertops I would think being directly over would be best, right?

5"? Really? Nobody would touch a 5" housing here. Customers think they look dated. 4" PAR16 or GU10 is the standard cheapo option and some will pony up for low voltage. The spring clips on Halo housings are garbage. Can you get Contrast there? Their clips screw down.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> How big is the room..? I have four inch in two of my bedrooms but they are pretty small... Im not a fan of four inch for lighting up a kitchen... Your kind of limited to a 50 watt bulb. with a five you can go to up to 75 watts. Is there any other lighting in the room..? Undercounters, flush mounts..? If not you kind of need to light up the work spaces other wise they will have some bad shadowing if the lights are behind the person. You will need to position them so that the light is centered between the countertop and where the person will be standing....
> I think a lot of ECs mess up kitchens because most guys dont spend much time in there and they dont really get where the light needs to be. If you dont have any other lighting in the kichen and the HO is on a budget stick to lighting the work surfaces first then general lighting . If there is undercounters, and some other lights like pendants, or flush mounts you can use the high hats in more of a general lighting mode... and space them a little more symetrical to the room. Halo makes a really nice 5 inch can, the bulb attaches to the trim first than you install the trim to the can with the spring legs, like the ones you find on exhaust fan trims... I think they are really nice. The bulb pretty much takes up all the space and you cant see into the can at all... And they arent expensive compared to other brands and they are all metal.. Whats not to love about them. Plus with the five inch cans you have more room to work in to snake in your wires and to drill across beams..


It's a fairly small kitchen. There is a 4' fluorescent in the center of the room that will be taken down. She has a small can directly above the sink. She has two pendants at the counter that divides the kitchen and dining area. The new cans will basically be all of the lighting for work and general areas. She is stuck on wanting the 4" cans.
You mentioned the 5" Halos, I put some in recently and liked the looks, but they didn't lock in worth a crap. I had to put screws in most of the clips.
Also, since the existing light in the center of the kitchen will be taken down, and that's where I will get my power/switch leg from, I will need to put a junction box there. The box will not be accessible after the remodel, how do you get around the rule about the junction box being accessible?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

If you gotta go with the fours just make sure you get nice bulbs.. Not necasarily halogen cause they can tend to be to spotty for general lighting, but good quality incandesants. you cant get the old switch leg to go into one of the new cans..? are there any other wires in the box or just the switch leg? can you put a can in place of the old box or is it a weird spot..? I would almost rather give the customer a free can than leave a junction box and blank in the ceiling..


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I have always been told to install the light 18" off the surface it is intended to light up if it's a wall/cabinet/etc. Countertops I would think being directly over would be best, right?
> 
> 5"? Really? Nobody would touch a 5" housing here. Customers think they look dated. 4" PAR16 or GU10 is the standard cheapo option and some will pony up for low voltage. The spring clips on Halo housings are garbage. Can you get Contrast there? Their clips screw down.


 really...? I think a big room full of four inchers looks like **** personally... Gu 10 and MR 16 bulbs are VERY problematic... they just get to damn hot and periodically loose connections.. I have had many customers complain that their bulbs keep going out or when the ygo to replace them they light up again.
To me four inchers are more task lighting oriented. I have yet to have a customer complain about any cans i put in.. The ones that really want 4 or 3 are the ones that are trying to be or think its trendy to have small lights. Im sure even Canadians arent that much different than US customers.. When you say" people up here" thats a pretty broad statement .... If you have a 20 by 25 room do you really think its better to have 12 small lights or 8 slightly bigger ones..?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

I've had great success with 4" R20's over counter tops. You need them to be closer together, because they're above the counter, so the beam doesn't spread out as much, but they provide great task lighting for work spaces. For the general open area of the kitchen floor, minimum for me would be 4, though I try to get 6 in.

Here's a rough sketch of how I'd lay out a typical kitchen in this area.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I have always been told to install the light 18" off the surface it is intended to light up if it's a wall/cabinet/etc. Countertops I would think being directly over would be best, right?
> 
> 5"? Really? Nobody would touch a 5" housing here. Customers think they look dated. 4" PAR16 or GU10 is the standard cheapo option and some will pony up for low voltage. The spring clips on Halo housings are garbage. Can you get Contrast there? Their clips screw down.


Around here, 5" is replacing 6" pretty rapidly. 6" is outdated, and bigger than necessary. 5" is smaller but offers the same lighting.... I usually only do 6" because it matches whats in most houses here. However, if they have zero recessed lights, I'll sell the 5"


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I have always been told to install the light 18" off the surface it is intended to light up if it's a wall/cabinet/etc. Countertops I would think being directly over would be best, right?
> 
> 5"? Really? Nobody would touch a 5" housing here. Customers think they look dated. 4" PAR16 or GU10 is the standard cheapo option and some will pony up for low voltage. The spring clips on Halo housings are garbage. Can you get Contrast there? Their clips screw down.


 I dont understand how so many guys have problems with halo cans..? I have never had a problem putting them in... You can spend as much money on the can and trim as your heart desires.. I would rather pocket more money personally. Halo make a nice mid level product IMO...
I put in 16 four inch cans in my 2nd level and for the love of it, i cant stand them .... Two of my small bedrooms arent as bright as i would like it, and i wish i went with the fives i have in my master bed room... (Like im gonna change them now..LOL) and i have 8 four inchers in my upstairs family room and again i wish it was just a little brigher... Five inchers would have been a much better option... I do have three fours in my bath but that room is only 10 by 8 at the most... and the three plus vanity are more than enough.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

B W E said:


> I've had great success with 4" R20's over counter tops. You need them to be closer together, because they're above the counter, so the beam doesn't spread out as much, but they provide great task lighting for work spaces. For the general open area of the kitchen floor, minimum for me would be 4, though I try to get 6 in.
> 
> Here's a rough sketch of how I'd lay out a typical kitchen in this area.


thats exactly what im talking about too..... Only i would keep them all the same size.. 
Look im not saying that i am totally opposed to small can lights but if they are the primary or only lighting in the room i think its not the best choice.. If you have other lights like chandaliers, pendants, sconces, than you can definatly get creative...When customers have money and want some really nice lighting i really like the trims that have the small hole in the middle and the rest of it can blend in with the ceiling... very nice look... but not if its the only lights going in... To me there is nothing worse than installing a bunch of expensive recessed lighting and having a very underwhelmed customer... 

I work in a lot of old old homes that have really bad lighting options and i do lots of retro can jobs i mean lots... The halo five incher is the best bang for their buck.. Can is like 9 bucks, trim another 12 and bulb is about 3 bucks.. another 10 allowance for wire. You cant beat that...


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

I agree that 4" is the most sought after size with homeowners. I much prefer the lighting from a 5" but it's very hard to convince most homeowners since all the new show homes are using 4" for everything. I just did a kitchen and tried to get them to go with 5" but ended up with 4's. Ended up with 8 in a small kitchen and they're lined up even with the edge of the counter tops. I couldn't go any closer without being right up against the upper cabinets. I'm not happy with the way it turned out but the homeowner loves it. I guess because she's paying, she can have whatever she wants. :thumbup:


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I dont understand how so many guys have problems with halo cans..? I have never had a problem putting them in... You can spend as much money on the can and trim as your heart desires.. I would rather pocket more money personally. Halo make a nice mid level product IMO...





captkirk said:


> really...? I think a big room full of four inchers looks like **** personally... Gu 10 and MR 16 bulbs are VERY problematic... they just get to damn hot and periodically loose connections.. I have had many customers complain that their bulbs keep going out or when the ygo to replace them they light up again.
> To me four inchers are more task lighting oriented. I have yet to have a customer complain about any cans i put in.. The ones that really want 4 or 3 are the ones that are trying to be or think its trendy to have small lights. Im sure even Canadians arent that much different than US customers.. When you say" people up here" thats a pretty broad statement .... If you have a 20 by 25 room do you really think its better to have 12 small lights or 8 slightly bigger ones..?


Maybe it's just a regional thing but for new construction people don't even consider 5" lights here and by here, I only mean southern Ontario. I have never been in a single new house with them. I don't think contractors even bid with 5" lights because the GC is expecting 4". For whatever reason people in this area have an aversiont to PAR30 lamps. Maybe they associate them with outdoor floodlights or something. I agree though, 50 watts is not enough for a lot of situations and PAR30 would probably be better but good luck getting the customer on board.

Halo is fine, it's only the spring clips that I have beef with. The rest of the housing is nice and fast to put up/wire up.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> . For whatever reason people in this area have an aversiont to PAR30 lamps. Maybe they associate them with outdoor floodlights or something. I agree though, 50 watts is not enough for a lot of situations and PAR30 would probably be better but good luck getting the customer on board.


Who said anything about PAR30?? Par30's are only good for really tall ceilings, other than that, I use only 65BR30's.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

B W E said:


> Who said anything about PAR30?? Par30's are only good for really tall ceilings, other than that, I use only 65BR30's.


That what I use too, and what I put in my basement, but 95% of the customers I deal with won't even consider 5" with any lamp and you'll never get a designer on board with 5" cans. It's 4" or smaller for everything.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

oops


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

SteveO. said:


> That what I use too, and what I put in my basement, but 95% of the customers I deal with won't even consider 5" with any lamp and you'll never get a designer on board with 5" cans. It's 4" or smaller for everything.


Thats pretty stupid. Thats like saying "Nobody here uses forks. It's spoons for everything." Guess it's a Canadian thing, eh?

4" cans have their purpose, but it is not general lighting. It's task lighting, and decorative lighting. Form follows function.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

B W E said:


> Who said anything about PAR30?? Par30's are only good for really tall ceilings, other than that, I use only 65BR30's.


That would be an even tougher sell than 75w PAR30. The average S. Ontario customer would be turned off. They all want flat eyeball trims and run away from baffles. Many customers even want 3" or 3.5" but you can imagine what a party those would be to put up after drywall. They usually get talked into 4". I think they get a kick out of the clear lens on PAR16s and MR16.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Most of my customers seem to ask my opinion on what to install.. 
Ive only had one or two that insisted on four inch and i had one guy tell me that he wanted low voltage lights specificly... When i ask him why ..he told me because a GC once told him that it would be cheaper on his electric bill.... of course i couldnt resist and broke out some math for the poor lawyer.... In the end he thanked me for my honesty and i installed about 22 five inch cans in his home. Among a long list of other work... He has like a dozen four inch cans in his large kitchen and hates how dark it is in there... The floor, the cabinets and the counter top all dark.... 

So when i talk about certain things its not just because something that i like, it all stems from past expericances... and customer feed back... I have lots of other customers that have had issues with GU10 fixtures and Spotty MR16 fixtures...You guys cant tell me you havent had customers tell you that their lights dont work all the time and when you go replace the bulb it magically lights up again...I cant possible be the only one
. So for me, I personally dont feel comfortable recomending small cans unless they absolutly have to have them... or they are going for some look..

When someone has an old home with poor lighting or just bad lighting in general ,they want LIGHT... they dont want cute little fixtures.... they just want to be able to see clearly..And thats what im there for.. to light up their lives....:thumbsup:

Ill take a couple of pics of my daughters room and spare bedroom with a light meter..The rooms are small so if you put more than four lights its gonna look weird... The four inchers that i put in just dont put out enough light.. four 75 watters would make a huge differance. thats what i have in my bedroom and you can really see what a differance another 100 watts makes..


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

One of the most common issue when my customer want the 4 inch cans they always never read the bulb specs and I did told them there is pretty good variation of beam pattern they go from super narrow spot to med wide flood pattern.

So that one reason why I have to set up a demo with couple MR16 with narrow spot and narrow/med flood pattern that will make the differnce how it set up.

Merci,
Marc


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> It's a fairly small kitchen. There is a 4' fluorescent in the center of the room that will be taken down. She has a small can directly above the sink. She has two pendants at the counter that divides the kitchen and dining area. The new cans will basically be all of the lighting for work and general areas. She is stuck on wanting the 4" cans.
> You mentioned the 5" Halos, I put some in recently and liked the looks, but they didn't lock in worth a crap. I had to put screws in most of the clips.
> Also, since the existing light in the center of the kitchen will be taken down, and that's where I will get my power/switch leg from, I will need to put a junction box there. The box will not be accessible after the remodel, how do you get around the rule about the junction box being accessible?


I just finished a kitchen with the same situation, there was a box in the center with a feed in and out and the leg, I was able to pull the wires back and get 2 into 1 can and the other into the adjacent one and fished a jumper piece between them, also I agree with what others have said about 4" being too small for general lighting, 5s put out better light, save the 4s for accent lighting


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Hippie said:


> I just finished a kitchen with the same situation, there was a box in the center with a feed in and out and the leg, I was able to pull the wires back and get 2 into 1 can and the other into the adjacent one and fished a jumper piece between them, also I agree with what others have said about 4" being too small for general lighting, 5s put out better light, save the 4s for accent lighting


I haven't pulled the existing light down yet, so I don't know how many wires are there. Hopefully it is just a switch leg and it's only stapled at the light. I might be able to take out the staple and pull the wires over to one of the new holes.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> I haven't pulled the existing light down yet, so I don't know how many wires are there. Hopefully it is just a switch leg and it's only stapled at the light. I might be able to take out the staple and pull the wires over to one of the new holes.


 how old is the house...? it was pretty comon in older homes to carry the steady feed through the light.. not sure why but i see it all the time up here. Is the old light in a good spot to put a can..? that might be your best bet.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> how old is the house...? it was pretty comon in older homes to carry the steady feed through the light.. not sure why but i see it all the time up here. Is the old light in a good spot to put a can..? that might be your best bet.


I think they said it was built in 93, so about 19 year old. That's why I said maybe it's just a switch leg. I haven't measured the exact layout yet, but yes, if a can or other light can go there, that would be great. IF they will let me put one there.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

I put 4" in my kitchen and love it. It's pretty crowded though - I put them about 3 feet apart. Excellent light patern - no darker areas at all. Cost an arm & a leg compared to 5 or 6 inch. They aren't IC rated, which can be a problem with old work . Also, sometimes it's a rewal bear to get the old bulb out - a problem if the customer is old, less than handy, or frail. Getting your fingers WAY up in that tiny trim is unpleasant. Sometimes I use porcelain (only!) socket extenders, but that's an added expense and inconvenience and changes the look.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have 7- 4" GUs in my kitchen with white trims. Kitchen is something like 14 x 13 or so.









The problem with any recessed light is going to be the way the light pattern spreads out from the can. The top 18" of the cabinets will be dark unless you use the type that have the R type lamp sticking out past the trim.

Like this:









I do have GUs in my bathroom and they do not cast a shadow for some reason:


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