# electric range wiring



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't get it. What are you talking about, the cord or the receptacle?

Why would you think you can use 6/2 cable on a 120/240v circuit???? 

The bare ground of NM cable was NEVER allowed to be used on a 3-wire range or dryer circuit, nor was it EVER allowed to carry circuit current.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

A new installation is required to have a separate EGC. The fact that the range itself is used, and has the improper cord, is irrelevant.

250.140. See the exception for *existing *installations.

Welcome to the forum.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

So I screwed up. Should have replaced cord and bought 6/3. 
How was that acceptable in the past? Maybe they didn't have a 120 V circ. in the range?


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

6/3 w/ grnd., I mean. It would have been ok with this installation if I'd used 6/3 w/o grnd. albeit not acceptable to NEC. I'm going to go check that now. 250.140


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey, what is the KW (kilowatt) rating?

You may be able to use 8/3 and put those savings on material right in your pocket!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> So I screwed up. Should have replaced cord and bought 6/3.
> How was that acceptable in the past? Maybe they didn't have a 120 V circ. in the range?


The clock, electronics and controls all work at 120v.

It never was acceptable in the past to use the bare for a neutral. It was done that way _because it worked_. But it was either never inspected, or the inspector didn't catch it.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't recall KW rating but I did the math and amperage was around 51 A.
Reason I used 6/2 (Petey) was that I had a 3 prong plug so I figured I needed 3 wires. Two # 6's and a #10 bare. I didn't think of 6/3 w/o the EGC. I'm so used to everything have a EGC, I guess.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

What's your advice from here on out? In other words how can I make it safe w/o buying more wire?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> What's your advice from here on out? In other words how can I make it safe w/o buying more wire?


What wire have you bought so far?

If it were me, I'd forget running anything other than 6/3 wg.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

6/3 w/o ground is NOT an option at all at this point. 
ALL new circuits MUST have a dedicated equipment ground. This has been code for several cycles now.

For a residential range we use kW rating, not amperage. Under 12kW you can use #8NM cable and a 40A breaker. 
Most of use just use 6/3 on a 50A to be safe.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

I ran 6/2 w/g. Like I was saying, I based my decision on the 3 prong plug.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

Range is not in use yet. Looks like I'll be rerunning some wire.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> Range is not in use yet. Looks like I'll be rerunning some wire.


Time to start working for Do-Over Electric! :jester:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> I ran 6/2 w/g. Like I was saying, I based my decision on the 3 prong plug.


I guess you don't come across many household cooking appliances on the industrial end of things, huh?


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

*ce2two*

:laughing:480sparky you had me on the floor laughing:thumbup: good come backs? remember back in 1980 dryer 240 volt we used 10-2 with grnd. ,now code requires 10-3 w/ground ................


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

heymitduh, if you want to save money you can run 6-3 aluminum.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

I put it on a 60 A. Why wouldn't I? It was over 12 K and that divided by 240 is or was 51+A. That x 125% is actually over 60 but I thought no way would the brkr be over 60A. I'm going to look in my codebook, etc. and....probably shoulda done that first but.... Hey, at least I'm trying to do it right and admitting I've room for improvement. I know a LOT of electricians that wouldn't worry about it. I appreciate all of your input.


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

Oh and I was thinking that I could just run a #10 over to a water line (after I make sure it's bonded.) Hmmmm?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> Oh and I was thinking that I could just run a #10 over to a water line (after I make sure it's bonded.) Hmmmm?


Would that be either safe or compliant? :blink:

I suggest you read 250.138 & 250.140


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Are you using a 50A receptacle?


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

It would be safe but not compliant.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> It would be safe but not compliant.


So you think running a ground wire to a nearby water pipe is safe?????


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

You do realize that this site is for professionals not DIY'ers right?


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

oh my...............


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Gil, up until now I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt. I can see a life long industrial electrician not having a clue about a residential range. 
The comment: _"I ran 6/2 w/g. Like I was saying, I based my decision on the 3 prong plug."_... and _"Oh and I was thinking that I could just run a #10 over to a water line"_...have me a bit concerned though.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Having done a variety of work over the years and seldom making major snafus, I would suggest that anyone delving into a work type they are not familiar with do several things I did, this kept my butt out of a sling more than once.

1. Read and understand the code sections that pertain to the work they are doing.

2. Read any technical literature available in this case a simple DIYer book from HD or Lowes.

3. Ask questions before starting a project.

4. Look at other similar installations.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

as i get in over my head on occasion i have a simple rule when it comes to things that i dont know the answer to "Call someone who knows what the  their doing " which of course is why your here, please do not run a #10 to the water line even if it is bonded :no:


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm not going to run a #10 wire as it is safe as is. And what's not safe about running #10 from the range to a bonded water line? It would provide an equipment ground to the range. 
Ranges were installed like this for years. Insurance companies are the ones who are behind a lot of the code changes and we all know what they're concerned with.
For instance, arc fault brkrs. throughout the whole house. 
Knob and tube wiring is one of the safest wiring methods out there. What....no ground? Condemn the place. 

Like i said, if I had it to do over again, I'd have changed the 3-prong to a 4-prong and ran 8-3 w/grnd. on a 50 A brkr. As it is, I got 6-2 w/grnd. (copper) on a 60A.

Well, I got things to do. Don't have time to sit in front of a comp. all day.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> I'm not going to run a #10 wire as it is safe as is.


You really think that, don't you?



heymitduh said:


> And what's not safe about running #10 from the range to a bonded water line?


I don't know. You are the electrician, you tell us. 



heymitduh said:


> Ranges were installed like this for years. Insurance companies are the ones who are behind a lot of the code changes and we all know what they're concerned with.


NO, the code changed because people were getting electrocuted when the neutral was compromised on a 3-wire range circuit.




heymitduh said:


> Knob and tube wiring is one of the safest wiring methods out there.


You really think this too, huh?




heymitduh said:


> As it is, I got 6-2 w/grnd. (copper) on a 60A.


It's great that you've convinvced yourself that the GROUND wire in an NM cable is OK to use as a neutral. :no:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

since your gonna use the ground wire in the NM as the neutral you sould use a trick an old hack taught me ,skin the next size up wire's white insulation and slip it over your ground wire and viola instant neutral  and why ground to the water pipe when you can just stick the EGC wire in the ground itself if its a raised house probably a lot less work than finding that water pipe :thumbup:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

OH GAWD that last post put me at a hundred - let me say thanks to all of the guys on here for helping me become a better electrican - and soon i will start taking pics of things that made me come to this site and others like it :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

There are a lot of ways we can convince ourselves that an improperly installation is "GOOD ENOUGH", for a variety of reasons, "they us to do it this way", "well it works" ETC......

Fact is does the installation as installed meet current work standards and code and if it doesn't and you leave it intact then you join a long list of hacks. In my opinion that is sad real sad, because you have wasted several years of your life trying to become an electrician and it looks like you failed.


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## Marco Electric (Sep 18, 2008)

MAN,you guys can get rough. You're right on your points and very insightful,but rough. I work alone and I miss the hard core shop talk tinged with sarcasim and blunt force.:thumbsup:


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

It's a fact that a lot of electricians are know-it-all prima donna's and think they are the ultimate authority. Anytime you do something, 50% of the "powers that be" will disagree and say their way is better. So be it.
There's nothing wrong with knob and tube when it's in good condition. The "hot" and the grounded conductor are separated by air and space whereas in a nonmetallic or "romex" construction they're right on top of each other and if the circuit brkr. fails, overheating can result.
As far as the bare ground being used as a neutral. I would prefer it to be insulated but why is it dangerous? The neutral is bonded to the equipment ground in the main panel so it has the same voltage differential. Grab it in the panel and then touch a water pipe or other "ground" and what d'ya think'll will happen? Nothing. 
I know it's not right. I'm just being the "devil's advocate" and creating some interesting dialog. Keep up the good work!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> It's a fact that a lot of electricians are know-it-all prima donna's and think they are the ultimate authority.


Yup. And this is the typical knee-jerk reaction to being called out for doing something wrong and getting caught.

If that makes me a know-it-all I am fine with that. :thumbsup:


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## heymitduh (Aug 25, 2007)

Peace


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> It's a fact that a lot of electricians are know-it-all prima donna's and think they are the ultimate authority. Anytime you do something, 50% of the "powers that be" will disagree and say their way is better. So be it.
> There's nothing wrong with knob and tube when it's in good condition. The "hot" and the grounded conductor are separated by air and space whereas in a nonmetallic or "romex" construction they're right on top of each other and if the circuit brkr. fails, overheating can result.
> As far as the bare ground being used as a neutral. I would prefer it to be insulated but why is it dangerous? The neutral is bonded to the equipment ground in the main panel so it has the same voltage differential. Grab it in the panel and then touch a water pipe or other "ground" and what d'ya think'll will happen? Nothing.
> I know it's not right. I'm just being the "devil's advocate" and creating some interesting dialog. Keep up the good work!


 Hey speedy can you ban someone from the website for their opinion being that useless?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

We could, but I'm not sure how cool that would be. 
As long as the advice given out to others is not dangerous or non-compliant I don't think there is grounds for it.

We cannot force someone to do the right thing themselves, but we can prevent them from telling others not to. At least here.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

heymitduh said:


> It's a fact that a lot of electricians are know-it-all prima donna's and think they are the ultimate authority. Anytime you do something, 50% of the "powers that be" will disagree and say their way is better. So be it.
> There's nothing wrong with knob and tube when it's in good condition. The "hot" and the grounded conductor are separated by air and space whereas in a nonmetallic or "romex" construction they're right on top of each other and if the circuit brkr. fails, overheating can result.
> As far as the bare ground being used as a neutral. I would prefer it to be insulated but why is it dangerous? The neutral is bonded to the equipment ground in the main panel so it has the same voltage differential. Grab it in the panel and then touch a water pipe or other "ground" and what d'ya think'll will happen? Nothing.
> I know it's not right. I'm just being the "devil's advocate" and creating some interesting dialog. Keep up the good work!


I can't believe this garbage.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

There are Prima Donna's yes and I have been accused of this. BUT and I mean with a big but.

If you violate the NEC it has nothing to do with us thinking we are Prima Donna's, it is strictly a violation of the NEC and how or why a license electrician would do this I'll never understand.

If you do not understand the NEC regarding something you are working on that is one thing, but if others have corrected you and you persist to stick with a non-compliant method, you have moved into the realm of a hack.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

heymitduh, do us all a huge favor. Hook everything up the way you have it, then turn the range on. While the range is on, take that bare nuetral off the nuetral bar with your bare fingers. Then tell us what happens...........nah, theirs nothing at all wrong with the way you are doing this.


What a hack. But on the plus side, it is guys like this, that keep the rest of us in business fixing his crap work.:yes:

Jeff


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I think this is a good time to say good night.
Good night.


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