# My new to me house panel in Vero Beach



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

i pay the poco 7 or 8 a month and they installed one

The payment also includes insurance so anything i lose they pay to replace. 

Had a direct hit that toasted the transformer on the pole and nothing got damaged. Been probably 10 years now and never had to claim anything. When it comes to tvss protection the more the better.

Now brown out protection on your ac unit is worth investing in.

Also If you have a high ser unit (speed controlled motors) then i would consider adding extra lightning protection at both the air handler and the compressor as they tend to go pop and are expensive to repair.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I haven't lost anything to lightning (yet), but for the hvac these items help with the obvious issues:
-time delays for restart on the compressor - a lot of units don't seem to have them 
-shut off in condensate line for overflow condition
-puck shut off in return if it is updraft

I got small ups on the computer and big tv. I'm sure a near hit will fry stuff, but I haven't done anything. I'm gonna check into that FPL protection though.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Its a good idea to learn about your AC unit and how/what needs to be serviced. 

If you are out of town and the AC quits your wife might wait 1hr before shes had enough and calls a AC tech to fix a simple service problem.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

We have 2 three phase services and CH TVSS's at each service and have never had damage.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Regardless of the locale, I think everything sensible I've read on lightning and surge protection spec's a layered approach. Panel protector and point of use surge suppression. Some POCO's will install another at the point of entrance. 

I've actually had customers refuse panel protectors out of hand because they would prefer their stuff got fried and turn in a homeowner's claim. I've done a reasonable amount of post-lightning work where the homeowners had nothing but raving reports about how the insurance company was buying them all new stuff. At least one customer bragged to me that she saved broken electronics for the future lightning claim because their home was situated in such a way that they get nailed every 6 or 8 years. This might not apply in FL, however, with their frequent popular lightning strikes. I don't know.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

flyboy said:


> What do you guys think?
> 
> Here's a question for you Florida electcionoes'. What do you guys put in for lightning/surge protection? I stole one of these Homeline Surgebreakers cat.# HOM2175SB out of my parts room. They any good. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


I don’t like TVSS units that give you no indication that their MOV’s have been fried. Go for units that have inductor lights showing that they are still working. And be sure to utilize cascade protection... good UL 1449 strips at the point of use downstream from you panel unit.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm pretty Sure your POCO is FPL just due to your proximity to the St. Lucie nuke plant.
They rent a TVSS that plugs in between the meter socket and the meter.
You can just buy your own and plug it in with the same protections offered by the manufacturer.

We have a tremendous amount of lightning strikes here but, all of our utility's are underground so that to me, in my limited knowledge of the subject, mitigates quite a bit of risk exposure.

We have all of out TVs and modem on individual UPS's that have some built in surge protection.
I have a time delay restart on my AC unit control transformer for power interruptions.

For the whole house, I haven't given it much thought. But as mentioned, it is best as a layered approach.

Suggestion.
While you are holding that TVSS in your hand and thinking about it, find a screw driver, install it, and post a pic for us all to critique. :smile:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

You guys are in lightning ally... but we get a bunch too.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

I always suggest a likhtning arrester on the meter. Business and Homeowners often think they can use a TVSS unit as a lightning arrester... NOT! I’m sure you guys also do the same as us and put lightning rods on your tall structures such as church steeples.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Communications equipment and "barriers" for hazardous locations uses zener diodes. That is a diode that when you put voltage on it in the reverse (blocking) direction beyond a certain voltage becomes a dead short but they are really small and DC only. All they do is protect transistors from small spikes like you get rubbing your socks on a carpet in winter.

ALL other modern lightning arresters, surge suppressors, etc., all use a device called a metal oxide varistor or MOV. It is a block of sintered zinc oxide. Small ones like you buy in a power strip usually come in a red plastic jacket and cost about $0.10. The ones utilities usually use are more like a cylinder stuffed down the center of an insulator. NESC says to install them every fifth pole so in most areas you will see 3 small insulators jumpered to the main line and then the bottoms are strapped to the pole ground on every fifth pole, plus on either or both sides of every recloser (T shaped device jumpered on the T on the side and off the top).

In its normal state a MOV is almost an open circuit. Above the trigger voltage (MCOV in data sheets) it becomes almost a dead short. You can megger one to see what I mean...The megger will easily cause it to go into conduction and hold the MCOV. That's also the way to test one.

When a MOV is conducting a little bit of the zinc oxide gets used up. There is no known test to reliably measure %used short of cutting one in half (destructive test). They are basically consumables. We can only measure failed or good. When a MOV is used up it can fail o0en or shorted. Utility MOVs almost always fail shorted but small ones go either way. When a utility MOV fails it normally blows the zinc oxide core out. If it fails high resistance utilities often use the smallest allowable jumper (#1) so the jumper acts like a fuse. It's easy to check them visually. On small ones there is no visible sign. The problem though is the dead shorts. If it fails with a high resistance it can melt and ignite the housing or say a carpet without tripping a breaker and many of the cheap power strips were responsible for house fires. So about 10 years ago UL stepped up the requirements. Now a MOV power strip is required to have an inline fuse. Not absolutely required but it should also have an LED or neon bulb in parallel with the MOV and series with the fuse so it's a "good" light. The other scheme puts the LED in parallel with the fuse as a "bad" light. Obviously if the MOV fails open the light is still on (or off)! There are other schemes but the long and short of it is that the light can only indicate fuse condition. Do not assume it's all good because the light is on (or off).

As to effectiveness all MOVs work. Depending on their respective trigger voltages when multiple devices are used, they will work in parallel and share protection duties. They all work even on the very last surge even if they are destroyed in the process. But when it comes to longevity, bigger is better for obvious reasons...more zinc oxide consumable. Also MCOV matters. Higher MCOV means less protection but the device lasts longer.

The ground rod resistance matters a lot with lightning. If your rod isn't down in the single digits in terms of resistance lightning will mist likely flow through another path, one that does damage. Pole grounds in sandy areas are almost a waste of time and the nearest substation, residence, etc.m becomes the utility ground. For Florida: hint, hint.

But the biggest problem with MOVs is lead length. If a MOV is going to work at all the distance between it and whatever it protects should be less than 18 inches. Most electronics cords are too long in the first place and a panel mounted surge arrester barely protects the wiring in the house, certainly not the TV which is tens of feet away. The best place to protecf your TV is at the end of the cord. The one out at the transformer protects the utility investment in the transformer and meter socket ones protect their meter but do nothing for the house. It's because of inductance. Google "surge arrester line length" for lots of utility-oriented explanations but here's a residential one. Sorry it's in European terminology but I came up short on Americanized ones.

https://blog.schneider-electric.com...ical-parameter-in-installing-surge-arresters/

So the TV manufacturer gives you a "nice, long" cord of say 1.5 meters (6 feet) but then runs into issues with warranties on lightning. Or they give you a 50 cm (18") cord and put "use a surge arrester" in the manual and the customer complains because the cord us so short on their 65" TV that the power strip has to hang behind the TV. Might want to think of buying some IEC shorty cables if you're serious about this stuff.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

gpop said:


> Its a good idea to learn about your AC unit and how/what needs to be serviced.
> 
> If you are out of town and the AC quits your wife might wait 1hr before shes had enough and calls a AC tech to fix a simple service problem.


My girlfriend is a retired facility manager for a large bank. She worked her way up from the maintenace department. She maintains the mechanicals in our home(s) with the exception of the electrical panels. She let's me do that so I can maintain some level of masculinity. :vs_laugh:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

jelhill said:


> I don’t like TVSS units that give you no indication that their MOV’s have been fried. Go for units that have *inductor* lights showing that they are still working. And be sure to utilize cascade protection... good UL 1449 strips at the point of use downstream from you panel unit.


"*inductor*????" Dang... it is sad when your typing is so much faster than your brain! Plus... a little proofing would have helped!


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

flyboy said:


> My girlfriend is a retired facility manager for a large bank. She worked her way up from the maintenace department. She maintains the mechanicals in our home(s) with the exception of the electrical panels. She let's me do that so I can maintain some level of masculinity. :vs_laugh:



HEY! You are not paying attention to the news... haven't you seen that some colleges are teaching that masculinity is bad?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

flyboy said:


> My girlfriend is a retired facility manager for a large bank. She worked her way up from the maintenace department. She maintains the mechanicals in our home(s) with the exception of the electrical panels. She let's me do that so I can maintain some level of masculinity. :vs_laugh:


Bonus.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I am feeling lazy but there are some other threads on this. I really like the idea of a TVSS that snaps in like a breaker rather than one that is connected to a breaker. It should be more effective, the lead length is shorter. But then I look at what happens to the TVSS device when these things take a hard hit: they burn up / explode. For that reason I'd rather have one that's external to the panel in a metal box, I don't want this thing to cook and ruin my panel bus in the process. 

If I was going to hedge, since MOV shunt type surge protection devices work in parallel, I think it might not be ridiculous to install two in at the bottom of the bus and hope for the best. This should double the capacity. 

For the same reason, I don't want surge protector receptacles - I don't want these things cooking off inside the wall, especially in a plastic box. They are tempting behind TVs but there are good units that surface mount to the recep with the cover plate screw. 

When you go over your surge protection, don't forget the low voltage side. Over the years I have learned you really have to protect the cable TV coax in particular, since the shield is bonded. Don't forget gate controllers etc. 

MOVs are wear components so you really want something that alarms when the MOVs wear out, preferably an audible alarm. 

Most of the TVSS manufacturers are real hard to get to pay on a claim on damaged equipment, if you pay attention to anything in the reviews, pay attention to that. The rest, people don't really know whether their surge protector is good or bad. 

I don't know if they have caught on but I think Littlefuse was making an OEM component, instead of a plain MOV, a "thermally protected surge protection device" (TPSPD) that was made to disconnect even when the MOV was overwhelmed by a big surge or just worn out.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

jelhill said:


> "*inductor*????" Dang... it is sad when your typing is so much faster than your brain! Plus... a little proofing would have helped!


And, it appears you talk to yourself as well. :vs_laugh:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

paulengr said:


> Communications equipment and "barriers" for hazardous locations uses zener diodes. That is a diode that when you put voltage on it in the reverse (blocking) direction beyond a certain voltage becomes a dead short but they are really small and DC only. All they do is protect transistors from small spikes like you get rubbing your socks on a carpet in winter.
> 
> ALL other modern lightning arresters, surge suppressors, etc., all use a device called a metal oxide varistor or MOV. It is a block of sintered zinc oxide. Small ones like you buy in a power strip usually come in a red plastic jacket and cost about $0.10. The ones utilities usually use are more like a cylinder stuffed down the center of an insulator. NESC says to install them every fifth pole so in most areas you will see 3 small insulators jumpered to the main line and then the bottoms are strapped to the pole ground on every fifth pole, plus on either or both sides of every recloser (T shaped device jumpered on the T on the side and off the top).
> 
> ...


 
Dang Chief... You are smarter than a police dog!... That is really good stuff! You have to be either a scientist or an engineer. :smile:
I bet at this point Flyboy's head is spinning!!!


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

splatz said:


> I am feeling lazy but there are some other threads on this. I really like the idea of a TVSS that snaps in like a breaker rather than one that is connected to a breaker. It should be more effective, the lead length is shorter. * But then I look at what happens to the TVSS device when these things take a hard hit: they burn up / explode. For that reason I'd rather have one that's external to the panel in a metal box, I don't want this thing to cook and ruin my panel bus in the process.*
> 
> If I was going to hedge, since MOV shunt type surge protection devices work in parallel, I think it might not be ridiculous to install two in at the bottom of the bus and hope for the best. This should double the capacity.
> 
> ...


 


Splatz is smarter than a police dog too!!! See the bold font above... a very, very good point. The units that are straight MOV will explode, I have seen it (After the fact :smile.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Clicked here for pics.


Nothing.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

flyboy said:


> What do you guys think?
> 
> Here's a question for you Florida electcionoes'. What do you guys put in for lightning/surge protection? I stole one of these Homeline Surgebreakers cat.# HOM2175SB out of my parts room. They any good. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


Ya gots one O them there fly-in houses with the hanger instead O the garage?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

LARMGUY said:


> Ya gots one O them there fly-in houses with the hanger instead O the garage?


Depends if hes on a trailer park one with the grass strip or hes a yuppie with a tarmac strip.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

LARMGUY said:


> Ya gots one O them there fly-in houses with the hanger instead O the garage?


He seems to be near a pretty good size Muni airport.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm a bettin yuppie.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> Ya gots one O them there fly-in houses with the hanger instead O the garage?


Negative...

Airplane is 15 minutes away at Vero Beach Regional Airport.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The grass strip thing can be cool, though might limit what you can fly there.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have not received my invitation yet :sad:


The US mail server really sucks. It must be their fault.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> The grass strip thing can be cool, though might limit what you can fly there.


I think they have what's called a blonde landing strip there in Vero. You should google that.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

one thing I forgot to mention - one of the best things you can do for yourself is hire a trusted individual to check on your unit/house at least once a month, if you are leaving it vacant for periods of time. if the ac fails, or a leak occurs, even if the leak is coming from neighbors, the mold will cause really undesired expenses. (turn off the water and HW when you leave, put a humidistadt on the ac)


here's the link to fpl's "insurance". It's actually a "subsidiary", or something like that. It is 15 bucks/month to cover everything, or 10 to cover either motors or electronics. https://www.fples.com/surge-protection-homeowners.html

If they are betting 120 per year on motors (limit of ins is $5000), then they must be betting you only take one hit per lifetime. I've been here 5 years x 4 units and no losses yet, so sounds like a good bet. The time delay on the ac really saves life on the units IMO. I think I'll save the 10 bucks a month and gamble on my own, but for little old ladies I guess it's not a bad deal.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wildleg said:


> one thing I forgot to mention - one of the best things you can do for yourself is hire a trusted individual to check on your unit/house at least once a month, if you are leaving it vacant for periods of time. if the ac fails, or a leak occurs,


Or for intruders/squatters.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

I had a business idea once, I had an unfortunate experience with a toilet line busting and flooding the entire house. After a week of cleaning it up with fans everywhere, I thought why not develop a wireless activated electrically powered water shutoff valve.

I mean I install wireless waterbug sensors under water heaters and drains, why not activate a relay to shut off the water to a house when water is detected?

Well, as usual, I'm a day late and a dollar short.

https://waterheroinc.com/home-ga-autoshutoff-2/

https://www.watercop.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgPyznNXt3gIV2P_jBx0g6AGZEAAYASAAEgKMJPD_BwE

This one detects a rise in usage and shuts it off.

https://www.phyn.com/product/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgPyznNXt3gIV2P_jBx0g6AGZEAAYAyAAEgIvqvD_BwE


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

A friend of mine patented a device which is activated by the flush handle. It lets water enter the tank for 1 minute (or whatever time you set it to). If there's a leak and the tank empties, water is not going to refill the tank. If there's a rupture, damage is mitigated to one tank full of water. He's in the process of licensing it right now.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

the problem with leaks is you don't know where they are going to come from.

I have friends that leave their water on when they go away (big mistake).

One guy I know had to completely gut and repair his mom's condo cause it was vacand and the water heater grew a small leak, which turned into a mold nighmare.

another broad came home and washing machine valve went and flooded the joint.

you gotta do the best you can and try to dodge all the bullets. (KISS)


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Always a good idea to turn off the outside receptacle breaker and water if you are a snow bird. Some of the not so honest neighbors have been known to borrow when theirs has been shut off.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

wildleg said:


> here's the link to fpl's "insurance". It's actually a "subsidiary", or something like that. It is 15 bucks/month to cover everything, or 10 to cover either motors or electronics. https://www.fples.com/surge-protection-homeowners.html
> 
> If they are betting 120 per year on motors (limit of ins is $5000), then they must be betting you only take one hit per lifetime. I've been here 5 years x 4 units and no losses yet, so sounds like a good bet. The time delay on the ac really saves life on the units IMO. I think I'll save the 10 bucks a month and gamble on my own, but for little old ladies I guess it's not a bad deal.


Im with glades and looking at a bill mine is showing $6 a month for surge protection. At 15 a month i think i would install my own protection and take the risk.


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