# hypothetical question



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?


I had a buddy go thru the back door and was making scale that week. No license either. Depends on where your at I suppose.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

If you already have a real Journeyman's card, the IBEW will bring you in as a journeyman .... BUT ....

At any time in that first year they can decide that you're skills are not up to their standards. Then you get to apply for the apprentice program, and start all over, from the bottom.

Leaving the question of 'fairness' out of it, it's a rare journeyman whose experience really is well-rounded. You can bet there are plenty of journeymen who have never seen a motor starter since they were in apprentice class, and there are plenty of pipe guys who have never run Romex. You BET the IBEW is going to be looking for those blind spots.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> If you already have a real Journeyman's card, the IBEW will bring you in as a journeyman .... BUT ....


Not necessarily, some locals do not recognize any outside training and make them serve the apprenticeship


This is not based on logic, fairness or anything but union mentality.

I had 4 masters the 3rd time I applied and was told I was not qualified.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

brian john said:


> I had 4 masters the 3rd time I applied and was told I was not qualified.


:blink:

You gotta be kidding me.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

brian john said:


> Not necessarily, some locals do not recognize any outside training and make them serve the apprenticeship
> 
> This is not based on logic, fairness or anything but union mentality.
> 
> I had 4 masters the 3rd time I applied and was told I was not qualified.


Why do you think a masters is a qualification? All that proves is you can take a test for the state or county depending on where you are. You haven't passed any tests given by the union. Outside training is fine but why would you think the union would care? No different than two different colleges not recognizing the others credits and won't transfer them. So you need to check that chip on your shoulder at the door.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?


Just check with the local near you. Depends on the need for guys at the time.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Many locals are using a standardized version of a test both written and practical to see if someone tests out as a JW. Ours does, and I understand it is not an easy test, but plenty of guys pass and are brought in as JW, some do not and get CE or apprentice options.

I agree with what others said about the card. I am good at taking tests and could probably have passed way before I was eligible to take the test. Did not mean I had the experience needed to be a JW though.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> Why do you think a masters is a qualification? All that proves is you can take a test for the state or county depending on where you are. You haven't passed any tests given by the union. Outside training is fine but why would you think the union would care? No different than two different colleges not recognizing the others credits and won't transfer them. So you need to check that chip on your shoulder at the door.


First - I could then and I can now smoke anyone at the hall giving the test, NEC or Power. 

Second - The local requires a JW license to become an "A" Mechanic, I had 7 JW's and 4 masters.

Third - The test given at the hall was a simplistic test anyone but a dolt could pass.

It had NOTHING to do with knowledge and everything to do with politics.

When I finally got my "A" card it was because I became friends with the BA's secretary and she put my name on the list along with quite a few licensed men that had been waiting as long as 15 years to test in, where I had waited onlt 18 months.

At the same time a guy I went to high school got in immedatly with one JW license, his father was President of a fair size open shop the hall was trying to organize, they never did organize that shop.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Hypothetically, does Atlanta have work now?:jester: I thought Atlanta was slow, though there is another GA local that should be putting guys out soon.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

brian john said:


> First - I could then and I can now smoke anyone at the hall giving the test, NEC or Power.
> 
> Second - The local requires a JW license to become an "A" Mechanic, I had 7 JW's and 4 masters.
> 
> ...


I'll I hear is crying because you think the world isn't fair to you.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> I'll I hear is crying because you think the world isn't fair to you.


He owns a union shop; I suspect he knows what he's talking about.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> I'll I hear is crying because you think the world isn't fair to you.


dip ****


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> He owns a union shop; I suspect he knows what he's talking about.


And. . . ? 
He sure sounds like a Whiny cry baby. If he's union why have a crappy attitude on how you became union? Doesn't make sense. Especially if you back doored the process.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> And. . . ?
> He sure sounds like a Whiny cry baby. If he's union why have a crappy attitude on how you became union? Doesn't make sense. Especially if you back doored the process.


:blink::no:

yeah, you keep that up...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> I'll I hear is crying because you think the world isn't fair to you.


 
Give me a break, you made a statement and I truthfully responded.

Can you honestly tell me politics does not play in to who does and doesn’t get into some locals, particularly in the 60’s and 70’s?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

union347sparky said:


> And. . . ?
> He sure sounds like a Whiny cry baby. If he's union why have a crappy attitude on how you became union? Doesn't make sense. Especially if you back doored the process.


 
Becasue I am honest, and it seems YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH???:laughing::laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> ...If he's union why have a crappy attitude on how you became union? Doesn't make sense....


 Sure it does. There are two sides to everything, and accordingly the union has both good and bad points. Brian was pointing out some of the bad he's experienced. 

You show me a man who can only see one side of an issue, and I'll show you a man who's stopped thinking.

-John


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?


To be completely honest, your qualifications probably are meaningless and might even be a deterrent to being able to join a union. Most locals want you to go through an apprenticeship. Part of the reason is electrical training and part of the reason is training in being a union member.

Typically older hands join through organization ( being a part of a shop that becomes union ) or through specialization ( being very well qualified in a particular craft that is in demand ) or as Brian John pointed out, through politics. Most of these folks don't ever really fit into the local, which is a shame really, and for that reason many locals firmly discourage the practice.

Your best bet is to talk to an agent from whatever local you are thinking of joining, as every local is different, and keep in mind that the better your local economy, the better shot you have of getting in.

Best of luck.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

eejack said:


> To be completely honest, your qualifications probably are meaningless and might even be a deterrent to being able to join a union. Most locals want you to go through an apprenticeship.


I've been through an apprenticeship school already, and as far as my current qualifications being "meaningless" and a "deterrent" I gotta say that is just crazy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I've been through an apprenticeship school already, and as far as my current qualifications being "meaningless" and a "deterrent" I gotta say that is just crazy.


 
And some locals realize that and work to allow open shop electricians join their ranks, others are still blind and tout the union way, we know it all you know nothing.

In my opinion one way to get the market share back ( when the economy strtenghtens), is to take in qualified open shop men, if you have all the workers you have a foot hold on the contractors.

Many locals are happy with their market share and seem to do little to grow other than take in apprentices to keep their numbers at a certain level.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

In my opinion one way to get the market share back ( when the economy strtenghtens), is to take in qualified open shop men, if you have all the workers you have a foot hold on the contractors.


makes a great deal of sense.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> In my opinion one way to get the market share back ( when the economy strtenghtens), is to take in qualified open shop men, if you have all the workers you have a foot hold on the contractors.
> 
> 
> makes a great deal of sense.


 
I am told this is the wrong approach, but what they seem to be doing nationwide (not in the DC Local) does not seem to be working as they seemed to lose market share in the best of times, excpet in markets that are locked to union only.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?


Heading toward the dark side?:laughing:

I know another guy that did that, but it was 10 or more years ago.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jbfan said:


> Heading toward the dark side?:laughing:
> 
> I know another guy that did that, but it was 10 or more years ago.


:laughing:
nah just curious, in case I ever move out west, or something.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> :laughing:
> nah just curious, in case I ever move out west, or something.


Or north!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

brian john said:


> Or north!


THAT ain't happening. :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I know lot's of guy's that tested in. Give it a shot.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?





BuzzKill said:


> :blink:
> 
> I am not sure about these times, but when I worked union in the 1980's, a license and a friend was pretty much all you needed.
> 
> ...


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

> No one said your training was meaningless.
> Take that license of your and apply for a pilots license and see how far it takes you.
> Of apply for the Bar exam with your training and your license.


Excuse me?? eejack said just as much in post #19. Some of you union guys are pretty f'n snobby, and jealous to boot, because I can pull permits and make a profit, while you toil away for the man..


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I was told by one organizer that I was over qualified to join the local.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> I've been through an apprenticeship school already, and as far as my current qualifications being "meaningless" and a "deterrent" I gotta say that is just crazy.


At least in the locals I am familiar with ( north east usa ) the only apprenticeship school that 'counts' is through the local and while on paper you have qualifications to be an electrician, you are not applying to become an electrician, you are applying to become a union electrician. 

You are not applying for a job, you are applying for membership in an organization that works due to collective and cooperative effort. In many respects, it is 'just crazy'.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> In my opinion one way to get the market share back ( when the economy strtenghtens), is to take in qualified open shop men, if you have all the workers you have a foot hold on the contractors.
> 
> makes a great deal of sense.


While that is an interesting approach, it is one that painfully did not work throughout the 90's and 00's. The IBEW went on a massive organizing blitz and all it pretty much did was dilute the workforce.

As far as qualified non union workers, without putting folks through an apprenticeship and a probationary period you end up weakening the unions. While they might be decent electricians, working union is a completely different mindset.

Watching folks in a sweat and panic the first time they get laid off is sad - it is a difficult and sometimes impossible transition from non-union where you can get fired at will for any reason to knowing you will get laid off and go to another job.

Many times you end up with these non union workers working for union in name only contractors at over scale breaking all kinds of union rules and traditions because being loyal to a shop is all they know and all they can handle. They reap all the benefits of unionism without any of the shared effort.

It is unfair to expect otherwise and shortsighted to think that bringing that sort of talent in could be of any benefit to the unions.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> How quickly could a non union guy with an apprenticeship completed and state license passed with well over 10 years experience get into the union and get regular scale for a JW?


 
For some reason I'm reminded of this movie 

http://www.theotherfwordmovie.com/

Seen it?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Why do you think a masters is a qualification?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> BuzzKill said:
> 
> 
> > :blink:
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I need to copy so I can paste this in every union discussion.


I feel the union is the best way for workers to go generally top pay, top benefits and all this will follow you from Apprenticeship to retirement. No negotiating when you leave a company for a new company (except for any over scale money or benefits).

I also feel for large companies where manpower fluctuates, it is the way to go.

For me I like union because I know my men have some of the best benefits out there, I want anyone working for me to have good pay, good benefits and a decent retirement. Starting small the union is an excellent way to offer this package to potential employees.

But for any union members here to think there are not issues with the union from trying to join be you a soon to be apprentice or a licensed electrician, is foolish. 

The IBEW is losing market share nationwide and I believe this has been going on for some time. You cannot continue to lose market share and survive at some point you will become insignificant (except in markets where you have a lock). The DC local appears to be more progressive (TO ME), they have in recent years been very open to members starting new businesses, very open to hiring off the streets and having the new members trained to become a “A” mechanic. They have a program where aspiring apprentices can join the local work until such time as they get accepted into the “A” program, in lieu of sitting at home twirling their thumbs or taking another job and moving away from the trade. Our local is contractor friendly working with contractors for the most part to secure work, to do what is best from a team stand point, obviously the membership comes first but they work with the contractors in mind. *1

Lastly to continue to feed one political party is foolish. You become a cash cow with no return, we are getting NOTHING for the millions pumped into the current political market. Spread the money around and I feel you would reap more bang for your buck and at this point they have nothing to lose, try to feed the other party and hedge your bets.


So I will continue to question the union, I will continue to criticize the union where I see fit and members with blinders on, well wake up and smell the economy, because it may not get better for some time and when it does all you may have left is a bench to sit on.


*1 Many travelers and some members see this as a sell out and dislike this approach, yet they seem to enjoy the work.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> So I can expect you to quit complaining about this country or to move to Europe?


That pretty much sums it up. 


Many here complain about rhe USA but would never leave it because they also love it. 

I see no reason what the same would not apply to your union views.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes; said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> He knows and tells you what he wants you to hear. *You cannot become a moderator on this forum if you are pro-union.*
> ...


While I cannot speak for Nathan I do not think Nathan knows or cares about union membership. For what it is worth when this Section was added to the Forum I was dead set against it as I knew it would be a very argumentative. _I am sure we could have a union mod, but the union has such a small market share, and knowledgeable union members willing to be mods is very limited_.:no::blink::laughing::laughing:

JUST FOR THE RECORD THAT WAS A JOKE, lets see how many can get a joke.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian thats twice you have posted quotes that don't belong tome, BTW.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

eejack said:


> At least in the locals I am familiar with ( north east usa ) the only apprenticeship school that 'counts' is through the local and while on paper you have qualifications to be an electrician, you are not applying to become an electrician, you are applying to become a union electrician.


So I guess electrical theory, codes and workmanship are vastly different on a union job eh? :laughing:
Get real.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> Brian thats twice you have posted quotes that don't belong tome, BTW.


 
SORRY, it copied that way when I hit quote MAJOR Apologies.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

brian john said:


> SORRY, it copied that way when I hit quote MAJOR Apologies.


:thumbsup: no problem dude!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> I need to copy so I can paste this in every union discussion.
> 
> 
> I feel the union is the best way for workers to go generally top pay, top benefits and all this will follow you from Apprenticeship to retirement. No negotiating when you leave a company for a new company (except for any over scale money or benefits).
> ...


 Although no system is perfect, It still seems that you are anti union. Weird cause you have a union shop. I think you like to **** in the bed . :whistling2:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> So I guess electrical theory, codes and workmanship are vastly different on a union job eh? :laughing:
> Get real.


BuzzKill. 

Perhaps I was a bit vague.

Your skills as an electrician are meaningless because you are not applying to become an electrician. You are applying to join a union. The members of that union just happen to be electricians.

I am glad you have such confidence in yourself and I am not trying to insult your skills. You asked an honest question and I gave you an honest answer.

I also said talk to your local, since all locals have differing requirements. 

And I wished you luck in your endeavor. 

So far your responses have been petty and mean spirited. Why?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Although no system is perfect, It still seems that you are anti union. Weird cause you have a union shop. I think you like to **** in the bed . :whistling2:


No I like to stand back and take an honest look and say whats wrong here.

Lead me to a be very successful as an electrician and continue on to own a decent electrical contracting business


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


>


Cute.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

eejack said:


> So far your responses have been petty and mean spirited. Why?


Hm. You seem to be a bit of a prima donna, eh? Just me gut feeling.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Why do you think a masters is a qualification?


Because It is, To get a Master license you have to work in the field for 5-6 years and become a Journeyman Electrician First 4 years in the field and you have to go to school as well so it takes a lot of work to get a masters they just don't give them out.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Because It is, To get a Master license you have to work in the field for 5-6 years and become a Journeyman Electrician First 4 years in the field and you have to go to school as well so it takes a lot of work to get a masters they just don't give them out.


 
I know some people that got thier master's license a month after turning out of apprenticeship school. Everything was still fresh in thier minds to pass the exam. Just another test to take for them.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

347sparky said:


> I know some people that got thier master's license a month after turning out of apprenticeship school. Everything was still fresh in thier minds to pass the exam. Just another test to take for them.


How much field time did they have?, and don't they have to get a journeyman license first?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

347sparky said:


> I know some people that got thier master's license a month after turning out of apprenticeship school. Everything was still fresh in thier minds to pass the exam. Just another test to take for them.


You have to have 10,000 hrs to take the test here.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

2000 hours x 5 years = 10000


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

347sparky said:


> 2000 hours x 5 years = 10000


Well if they have the 10,000 hours in then what is wrong with them taking the masters test?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Well if they have the 10,000 hours in then what is wrong with them taking the masters test?


Only 2000 hrs here can come from schooling. The rest must be OTJ


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> Hm. You seem to be a bit of a prima donna, eh? Just me gut feeling.


Are you this much of an ass to people in person?

Kids like yourself just want to hear themselves talk; going on message boards being all snotty and insulting doesn't make you a man, it just proves you are a child. Closed minded means incompetent since you already know everything and you have zed to learn.

You probably are one of those useless mechanics who is so full of themselves that they hand out crappy advice with great animation. Your ignorance probably has gotten someone hurt at some point.

Did you think that by posting on here about your 10 years of experience that people would fawn over your mighty accomplishments, throw themselves at you begging to join with them? 

Do you think anyone really wants a pompous know it all working near them, or with them or for them? Haven't you ever wondered why you work alone as often as you do?

When you have grown up a bit and actually accomplished something you might be worth something to someone, until then, you are just a loud rustle in the trees.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> Only 2000 hrs here can come from schooling. The rest must be OTJ


School hours don't count as time in the field here you have to work in the field for 8,000 hours and 10,000 for the masters.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> School hours don't count as time in the field here you have to work in the field for 8,000 hours and 10,000 for the masters.


Here 2 yrs of school is worth 2000 hrs, actually we go by months(160 hrs per month) So 48 months is a JW test then 12 more for a Masters.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Well if they have the 10,000 hours in then what is wrong with them taking the masters test?


Who said anything is wrong? But having a masters does not necessarily make a great electrician.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

eejack said:


> Are you this much of an ass to people in person?
> 
> Kids like yourself just want to hear themselves talk; going on message boards being all snotty and insulting doesn't make you a man, it just proves you are a child. Closed minded means incompetent since you already know everything and you have zed to learn.
> 
> ...


damn, took you a long time to merely say "f*ck off".


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Since were listing hypothetical questions, here's one. If I wired a house and had each bedroom light on its own individual sw. ckt breaker, would I need a switch in the bedroom?


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

347sparky said:


> Who said anything is wrong? But having a masters does not necessarily make a great electrician.


10000 on the job training plus classroom time


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

eejack said:


> Are you this much of an ass to people in person?


Pretty much: start talking sh*t on here after 58 posts and you are gonna get called out.

:thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> Since were listing hypothetical questions, here's one. If I wired a house and had each bedroom light on its own individual sw. ckt breaker, would I need a switch in the bedroom?


Yes you would.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> Yes you would.


code sec?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> Pretty much: start talking sh*t on here after 58 posts and you are gonna get called out.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Good job waving your epeen young'n.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

In english?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> In english?


Oh?

Something you don't know?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=epeen


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> code sec?


You don't accept my word?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> You don't accept my word?


not when I know your wrong :whistling2:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

yeah, thanks for informing me...good that you are such an "internet language ***"; teach us more of this sh*t while I introduce you to my ignore list.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> not when I know your wrong :whistling2:


Why did you ask then.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> Why did you ask then.


looking for someone to dispel the myth


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> not when i know your wrong :whistling2:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> View attachment 15824


does it state the location of the switch?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> does it state the location of the switch?


Yes it does.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> Who said anything is wrong? But having a masters does not necessarily make a great electrician.


Nor does being open shop, or union or industrial, commercial or residential. But some states have decided to start somewhere.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> 10000 on the job training plus classroom time


And at that point if you ain't a half decent electrician you should be working as a laborer because there is not a snow ball chance in hell you will ever amount to anything in this trade.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> Yes it does.


:no: code article please


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> yeah, thanks for informing me...good that you are such an "internet language ***"; teach us more of this sh*t while I introduce you to my ignore list.


Got it. Ask question, don't like answer, whine, called on whining, pout, called on pouting, call someone a ***. Good work when you can get it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And at that point if you ain't a half decent electrician you should be working as a laborer because there is not a snow ball chance in hell you will ever amount to anything in this trade.


There is always management.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

_eejack, _I think this comes down to guys really resenting being told that all the time, effort, and money that goes into being a merit electrician is suddenly worthless because someone wasn't paying union dues while doing it.

Put the shoe on the other foot: If for some reason you had to quite your local after X number of years as a journeyman running crews, would you really be all that happy about going back to being a green apprentice in a merit shop? Of course not.

It's awfully bold of you to say that skills are not the primary concern of people who hire folks into the union. Some people would argue that's a huge part of what's wrong with how unions are run.

-John


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> :no: code article please


I posted it. Look again.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> I posted it. Look again.


I saw that, but also failed to see where its states the LOCATION


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And at that point if you ain't a half decent electrician you should be working as a laborer because there is not a snow ball chance in hell you will ever amount to anything in this trade.


Sure you will be half decent but having a masters at that point does not mean you know everything or have the experience, as the title "master" implies.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> i saw that, but also failed to see where its states the location


the wall


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Big John said:


> _eejack, _I think this comes down to guys really resenting being told that all the time, effort, and money that goes into being a merit electrician is suddenly worthless because someone wasn't paying union dues while doing it.
> 
> Put the shoe on the other foot: If for some reason you had to quite your local after X number of years as a journeyman running crews, would you really be all that happy about going back to being a green apprentice in a merit shop? Of course not.
> 
> ...



Perhaps John I should have softened it a bit but it is the truth.

I know that if I went into the non-union workforce I would be at a stark disadvantage - the type of work environment is completely different. My years of experience probably would not apply, at least not in the same way.

As far as what's wrong with how unions are run - lots of people tell us that they are being run wrong and give reasons why they think so. I understand no organization is perfect but I seriously doubt many could withstand the massive scrutiny that unions are subjected to.

Are unions well run? Yes, I believe so. Are the perfect? No. Can they improve? Certainly. Can you say that about any/every organization out there? 

Could unions benefit from skilled labor? Absolutely, *IF* that skilled labor is young enough to contribute to the union and *IF* those skills apply to the work in the area. 

The IBEW doesn't lack in skilled labor, what they lack in is work to do. But so do all the trades, union and non union, in general and across the country.

Manufacturing ( a huge part of our work ) is leaving the country, smarter tools and work techniques have reduced labor requirements, government is at a virtual stand still as far as spending, banks are not lending money, wall street has sucked the marrow out of the economy and very large business interests are assaulting unionism as never before.

All of this has hurt unions, and to extent - all the non-union workforce that depend upon strong unions and the wages they spend.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

360max said:


> I saw that, but also failed to see where its states the LOCATION


IN the habitable room.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> IN the habitable room.


I think he's trolling us.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

backstay said:


> I think he's trolling us.


That would be the only reasonable answer. Surprising to me, since Hilti is usually a pretty reasonable poster.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

This has been discussed before on ET somewhere before, I'll try and look later. The way I read the actual language is that it is controlled by a wall switch, but not where that is. I think they could all be by the front door as the code is written.

I am certainly not saying that it would make sense, or that an inspector would even pass it. But I do not read that it has to be in the room it controls.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f6/light-switch-location-24855/?highlight=switch+location

This is the discussion I remembered.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> the wall


basement wall, right?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay said:


> the wall





TooFarFromFenway said:


> That would be the only reasonable answer. Surprising to me, since Hilti is usually a pretty reasonable poster.


....not trolling TooFarFromFenway, as its stated in the code, it does not state where the switch has to be. Inspector has to site code and sec for failures, please keep in mind the NEC is not a design manual (or so they claim), and exact sw location would be a design issue.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> There is always management.


That is for electricians when they are actually worth their weight in the field, if you want a successful company.

It is very common for field electricians to disrespect management, but if they had a clue about how a company works, they would realize the field and management is a team, not a battle front as the IBEW members often seem to push.

Uo to my last heart attack 2 years ago I worked field office about 50%/50% now I do about 25% field, 50% office, 25% screwing off. both field and office take certain skill sets and in my business having field experience is important with all the reports we do. My business partner has been in the office for 27 years and I would not want it any other way , managing a company is no cake walk.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

360max said:


> ....not trolling TooFarFromFenway, as its stated in the code, it does not state where the wall has to be. Inspector has to site code and sec for failures, please keep in mind the NEC is not a design manual (or so they claim), and exact sw location would be a design issue.


It still says wall switched, not panel switched. I put switches outside of rooms too when it needs to be done that way. But they aren't in the ceiling, floor or the panel.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

backstay;783692[B said:


> ]It still says wall switched[/B], not panel switched. I put switches outside of rooms too when it needs to be done that way. But they aren't in the ceiling, floor or the panel.


....wall switched could mean a switch mounted in a panel, on a wall. If it stated wall mounted disconnect, could I use a breaker as a disconnect for a motor that was mounted on floor next to panel?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

There have been a bunch of proposals to have the code require walls switches to be located near or in the rooms they control. They were rejected as a design issue. I think that makes it clear that the NEC does not (yet) dictate the location of wall switches for room lighting outlets.

-John


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> Sure you will be half decent but having a masters at that point does not mean you know everything or have the experience, as the title "master" implies.


Look you will never know it all, so some local jurisdictions have placed licensing requirements. They are as good as (and in some cases tougher) than most test the hall or anyone else can offer.

I had my first journeyman's at 2.5 years in the trade, did I know everything HECK NO, first masters at 4 years last masters at 8 years (11 total), did I know everything, heck no, NETA certified at 6 years, taken a slew of courses at college, at the hall and independently and at 42 years do I know everything? HELL NO.


But you have to start somewhere and base requirements on standards of some sort...DON'T YOU?

Or do you have some master plan? That you should enlighten us with.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Look you will never know it all, so some local jurisdictions have placed licensing requirements. They are as good as (and in some cases tougher) than most test the hall or anyone else can offer.
> 
> I had my first journeyman's at 2.5 years in the trade, did I know everything HECK NO, first masters at 4 years last masters at 8 years (11 total), did I know everything, heck no, NETA certified at 6 years, taken a slew of courses at college, at the hall and independently and at 42 years do I know everything? HELL NO.
> 
> ...


 
Finally we agree on some things. Where I'm at the only difference in the JW and masters is with the masters you can pull permits. If you own or run a company like you do then that's what you need but for most guys working they don't need it. 

Is there a reason to take 11 master's tests? Were you working in different areas or do you have to retake to keep the license up?


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