# Use-2



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

*338.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(B)Underground Service-Entrance Cable.*
Underground service-entrance cable (USE) shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:

(1)For interior wiring
(2)For aboveground installations except where USE cable emerges from the ground and is terminated in an enclosure at an outdoor location and the cable is protected in accordance with 300.5(D)
(3)As aerial cable unless it is a multiconductor cable identified for use aboveground and installed as messenger-supported wiring in accordance with 225.10 and Part II of Article 396


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

HertzHound said:


> *338.12 Uses Not Permitted.
> (B)Underground Service-Entrance Cable.*
> Underground service-entrance cable (USE) shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
> 
> ...


So eveen though its in pipe an gutter and no more then 6 feet beforr it terminats at the main breaker..


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

“Figure 338-3 shows multiconductor Type USE cable for underground (including direct earth burial) applications of service or other circuits. Type USE may consist of one, two, or three conductors. If it has no building wire designation, its insulation will burn, and it is absolutely excluded from any interior wiring whatsoever by 338.12(B)(1). Where” 
“used aboveground it must terminate where it emerges from the ground, such as at a meter socket, as covered in 338.12(B)(2). It is recognized for use as aerial cable, provided it is in the multiconductor form, identified as suitable for aboveground use, and run on a messenger. Some cables have both a “USE” designation and also a building wire designation, such as “RHW.” This cable can continue into a building. The basic temperature rating for this cable is 75°C and that limit applies unless a different number is marked on the cable.”

Excerpt From
McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code (NEC) 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition
Frederic P. Hartwell & Joseph F. McPartland








‎McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition


‎Professional & Technical · 2017



books.apple.com




This material may be protected by copyright.

“The ampacity issues regarding Type SE cables generally do not apply to underground applications, and the blanket application of ampacity limitations on Type UF cables in 340.80 need not be applied to Type USE cables. An exception, new as of the 2014 NEC, limits the reach of the final sentence in 338.10(B)(4)(b) by waiving those limitations. Note that the wording includes the term “multi-rated USE conductors.” This term is undefined, but based on the documentation connected to the change, and the reference is intended to describe Type USE cable that also has a building wire rating, such as USE-2/RHW-2 or the like.”

Excerpt From
McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code (NEC) 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition
Frederic P. Hartwell & Joseph F. McPartland








‎McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition


‎Professional & Technical · 2017



books.apple.com




This material may be protected by copyright.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think Use-2 can be used inside if I am not mistaken.. I'll see if I can find info on it


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think Use-2 can be used inside if I am not mistaken.. I'll see if I can find info on it


Great please do


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If it is USE-2 then it should also be marked Rhw, Rhw-2, Use-2 and Rhh, Rhw and the others are allowed inside a building. Use cannot be but Use-2 can be used inside, The following is from here but I am sure there are other sources


https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/rhh-rhw-2-use-2-and-rhh-building-wire-explained/





> USE-2 is a good choice for industrial applications where better insulation toughness and resistance to moisture and heat are desired. USE-2 can be used as RHW-2 or RHH cable at temperatures up to 90°C in wet or dry locations.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

A true USE or URD does not have a vertical flame rating and cannot be used in a building but Use-2 clearly can be.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is a better source right from the manufacturer Southwire.



https://www.mysouthwire.com/medias/sys_master/product-specifications/product-specifications/h0e/he3/8854083403806/Copper-RHH-RHW-2-USE-2-.pdf


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is a better source right from the manufacturer Southwire.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.mysouthwire.com/medias/sys_master/product-specifications/product-specifications/h0e/he3/8854083403806/Copper-RHH-RHW-2-USE-2-.pdf


THANK YOU !!for that...why dosnt it state that in the code book?..i quess the manufacturer of the wire can override NEC if it stated...Do they make a URD that be used for both inside and out?... He also failed because i had 4/0 AL on a 200 amp breaker. He said because its a commercial install even though my load calculation was under 180 amps..


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

morg123452000 said:


> He also failed because i had 4/0 AL on a 200 amp breaker. He said because its a commercial install even though my load calculation was under 180 amps..


Well crapola. 

You gonna capitulate and change it or are you going to try to educate the inspector?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

morg123452000 said:


> THANK YOU !!for that...why dosnt it state that in the code book?..i quess the manufacturer of the wire can override NEC if it stated...Do they make a URD that be used for both inside and out?... He also failed because i had 4/0 AL on a 200 amp breaker. He said because its a commercial install even though my load calculation was under 180 amps..


It does state it in the code book. It's dual rated.
It's like failing you for using THHN conductors for underground conduit, when the conductor is dual rated THHN/THWN.


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Well crapola.
> 
> You gonna capitulate and change it or are you going to try to educate the inspector?


Once i find the code reference to veriify that all i need is aa 180 amp load calculation ..i really dont want to surrender !


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

240.4(B) is your reference

@morg123452000


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is the section. It doesn't say anything about commercial or dwelling only



> 240.4(B) Overcurrent Devices Rated 800 Amperes or Less. The next higher standard overcurrent device rating (above the ampacity of the conductors being protected) shall be permitted to be used, provided all of the following conditions are met:
> (1) The conductors being protected are not part of a branch circuit supplying more than one receptacle for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads.
> (2) The ampacity of the conductors does not correspond with the standard ampere rating of a fuse or a circuit breaker without overload trip adjustments above its rating (but that shall be permitted to have other trip or rating adjustments).
> (3) The next higher standard rating selected does not exceed 800 amperes.


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is the section. It doesn't say anything about commercial or dwelling only


What he showed me said single family only( I wish I would have wrote it down and remembered it but I was frustrated)..i cant find anything that says that..darn!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Did he show you section 315.15(B)(7)-- that number may be different based on code year you are using. Either way he is incorrect


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Could the inspector be enforcing some sort of local code we're unaware of? Seems awful specific if that's the case.


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

morg123452000 said:


> What he showed me said single family only( I wish I would have wrote it down and remembered it but I was frustrated)..i cant find anything that says that..darn!





Dennis Alwon said:


> Did he show you section 315.15(B)(7)-- that number may be different based on code year you are using. Either way he is incorrect


AJH has finale say..ill ask around to see how the other AJHs feel


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Did he show you section 315.15(B)(7)-- that number may be different based on code year you are using. Either way he is incorrect


Do you know what that might be in the 2017 NEC? 
Thanks if you do.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

morg123452000 said:


> AJH has finale say..ill ask around to see how the other AJHs feel


The inspector is not usually the last say. Our authority having jurisdiction is the state engineer at the department of insurance. He can override an inspector and has done many times.

The trick is to not make the argument a confrontation. Say something I believe you are mistaken as that section pertains to residential however that is not the section that is applicable. Section 240.4(B) would be applicable.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldsparky52 said:


> Do you know what that might be in the 2017 NEC?
> Thanks if you do.



It is 310.15(B)(7). My guess is the inspector sees this which will allow 4/0 for 200 amps for a dwelling but in the op's case 240.4 will allow it also. The only difference is the load cannot exceed 180 amps in the commercial job.

I did a job where the engineer speced 250kcm. The shop was very small and his calculation had it at 103 amps, I believe I asked if I could use 4/0 aluminum and he said no at first and then I showed him 240.4(B) and he had never seen that and said to go ahead as they will never load that space up to 180 amps



> (7) Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For one family
> dwellings and the individual dwelling units of two-family
> and multifamily dwellings, service and feeder conductors
> supplied by a single-phase, 120/240-volt system shall be permitted
> ...


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is 310.15(B)(7). My guess is the inspector sees this which will allow 4/0 for 200 amps for a dwelling but in the op's case 240.4 will allow it also. The only difference is the load cannot exceed 180 amps in the commercial job.
> 
> I did a job where the engineer speced 250kcm. The shop was very small and his calculation had it at 103 amps, I believe I asked if I could use 4/0 aluminum and he said no at first and then I showed him 240.4(B) and he had never seen that and said to go ahead as they will never load that space up to 180 amps


Where does it state it cant go above 180 amps


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

morg123452000 said:


> Where does it state it cant go above 180 amps


The ampacity of 4/0 doesn't change so the load can only be what T 310.15(B)(7) states and that is 180 amps. 240.4(B) allows a 200 amp breaker but the load cannot be more than the ampacity of the wire.


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The ampacity of 4/0 doesn't change so the load can only be what T 310.15(B)(7) states and that is 180 amps. 240.4(B) allows a 200 amp breaker but the load cannot be more than the ampacity of the wire.


I see ...ok got it...thanks a bunch for all the imfo this weekend...also do they make a URD that is MULTI use...like USE and USE-2


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

morg123452000 said:


> I see ...ok got it...thanks a bunch for all the imfo this weekend...also do they make a URD that is MULTI use...like USE and USE-2



That is all I can buy at my supplier. True URD is not compliant or listed in the nec. Check where you got it, my bet is it is use-2


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The ampacity of 4/0 doesn't change so the load can only be what T 310.15(B)(7) states and that is 180 amps. 240.4(B) allows a 200 amp breaker but the load cannot be more than the ampacity of the wire.


Okay, can you help me please.

When you type "T 310.15(B)(7)" I assume you are meaning a Table 310.15(B)(7) and not section 310.15(B)(7) (which is all verbal and does not state " T 310.15(B)(7) states and that is 180 amps". 

My 2017 edition goes from T 310.15(B)(3)(a) on page 149 to no Tables on page 349 to T 31015(B)(16) on page 350. I do not see a T 310.15(B)(7). If someone will please either tell me where I'm thinking wrong or show me where this Table is?

Thanks.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

My bad, I should have looked... they changed the table number--- T 310.15(B)(16) is for ampacities but I thought you were asking about what the inspector was thinking about. My guess was he misunderstood section 310.15(B)(7). Does that help


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

4/0 aluminum @75 C is rated 180 amps-- that has not changed


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If it is USE-2 then it should also be marked Rhw, Rhw-2, Use-2 and Rhh, Rhw and the others are allowed inside a building. Use cannot be but Use-2 can be used inside, The following is from here but I am sure there are other sources
> 
> 
> https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/rhh-rhw-2-use-2-and-rhh-building-wire-explained/


Well Well it happened again I talked to the inspector and he says that he will not allow USE-2 indoors I sent over the information I got from you about a year ago from South West wire when it failed. So I'm not sure how I can do this because I don't think that the code book shows that you can use USE- 2 Maybe I could have somebody from Southwest wire write me a letter stating that USE-2 is suitable for indoor and is a dual rated insulation... I like using the USE going from meter enclosure to panels .It's easier to work with since it's wound together...I'd like to win this...morg


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Why not just use thwn-2 and be done with it since you have to install conduit anyway


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Morg12345 said:


> Well Well it happened again I talked to the inspector and he says that he will not allow USE-2 indoors I sent over the information I got from you about a year ago from South West wire when it failed. So I'm not sure how I can do this because I don't think that the code book shows that you can use USE- 2 Maybe I could have somebody from Southwest wire write me a letter stating that USE-2 is suitable for indoor and is a dual rated insulation... I like using the USE going from meter enclosure to panels .It's easier to work with since it's wound together...I'd like to win this...morg


Time to go over his head.


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why not just use thwn-2 and be done with it since you have to install conduit anyway


I could I quess..just curious about the use-2 and its suitable for indoor use...morg


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

just give him this and tell him to stfu or youre contacting their city's attorney


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why not just use thwn-2 and be done with it since you have to install conduit anyway


u remember our talk? same chit happened and someone tried pulling this crap with me


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

That is not USE cable. USE cable has an overall outer jacket. It cannot be used indoors because that jacket is not flame-retardant.

What you have in your picture is just three USE-2 conductors twisted together. The 2020 NEC defines it as a “service conductor assembly” in 338.2. Please refer to the pics.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldsparky52 said:


> Do you know what that might be in the 2017 NEC?
> Thanks if you do.


sorry it is 310.15(B)(7) not 315.15


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Morg12345 said:


> I could I quess..just curious about the use-2 and its suitable for indoor use...morg



The old USE was not allowed to enter the house because they never did a vertical flame rating, however, USE-2 is either RHW or a blend of Xhhw and thwn or something along those lines. So why wouldn't he allow RHW in the house if it is installed in conduit. The guy is just wrong, IMO


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## Morg12345 (Jan 22, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The old USE was not allowed to enter the house because they never did a vertical flame rating, however, USE-2 is either RHW or a blend of Xhhw and thwn or something along those lines. So why wouldn't he allow RHW in the house if it is installed in conduit. The guy is just wrong, IMO


 we have been talking via emails he just plainly said that USE- 2 is not allowed inside I guess the information from the wire manufacturers was not enough to convince him...MORG


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Morg12345 said:


> we have been talking via emails he just plainly said that USE- 2 is not allowed inside I guess the information from the wire manufacturers was not enough to convince him...MORG


I had an inspector like this once in a small town. The manufactures info was enough to convince the state construction board to convince him. The “hadn’t got around to writing it in the code” so I didn’t get around to following it.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

> 338.12 Uses Not Permitted.
> (B) Underground Service-Entrance Cable. Underground service-entrance cable (USE) shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
> (1) For interior wiring


So it doesn't really matter what the manufacturer says, it's not code compliant. 🤷‍♂️ You can't get a note from the manufacturer to add new wiring methods to chapter 3.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

splatz said:


> So it doesn't really matter what the manufacturer says, it's not code compliant.


sure it is


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

matt1124 said:


> I had an inspector like this once in a small town. The manufactures info was enough to convince the state construction board to convince him. The “hadn’t got around to writing it in the code” so I didn’t get around to following it.


His is correct that use is not allowed and the wording is ambiguous but USE-2 is definitely allowed in conduit inside.

The trouble is you can't fight him because of the ambiguity


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> His is correct that use is not allowed and the wording is ambiguous but USE-2 is definitely allowed in conduit inside.
> 
> The trouble is you can't fight him because of the ambiguity


totally wrong


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> I had an inspector like this once in a small town. The manufactures info was enough to convince the state construction board to convince him. The “hadn’t got around to writing it in the code” so I didn’t get around to following it.


 I'd like to talk to him about it in a nice way... It's not a good idea to irritate the guy that's going to inspect your work


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

morg123452000 said:


> I'd like to talk to him about it in a nice way... It's not a good idea to irritate the guy that's going to inspect your work


irrelevant. its not their job to extort or abuse u, they inspect the legally adopted code and thats it.


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## morg123452000 (Nov 4, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> His is correct that use is not allowed and the wording is ambiguous but USE-2 is definitely allowed in conduit inside.
> 
> The trouble is you can't fight him because of the ambiguity


Had to look that one up


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I thought it didn't matter if it was in conduit



> 358.22 Number of Conductors. The number of conductors
> shall not exceed that permitted by the percentage fill specified in Table 1, Chapter 9.
> 
> *Cables shall be permitted to be installed where such use is
> ...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Majewski said:


> totally wrong


The code does say that USE is not allowed indoors. How do you fight that?


> (B) Underground Service-Entrance Cable. Underground
> service-entrance cable (USE) shall not be used under the
> following conditions or in the following locations:
> (1) For interior wiring


The thing about this cable is that it can function in 2 ways. If you run it in conduit above ground then it is just regular rhw insulation and is not considered USE however if you run it underground with no conduit then it is USE. 

You can try going over his head but..... make it worth it. If you have a long run then IMO, it is worth it.

This says it all IMO



> Southwire® Type RHH or RHW-2 or USE-2 conductors are used with conduit as specified in the 2011 National Electrical Code. When used as Type USE-2, conductor is suitable for use as underground service entrance cable for direct burial at conductor temperatures not to exceed 90° C. When used as RHH, conductor temperatures shall not exceed 90°C in dry locations. When used as RHW-2 or USE-2, conductor temperatures shall not exceed 90°C in wet or dry locations. Voltage rating for RHH or RHW-2 or USE-2 conductors is 600 volts.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The code does say that USE is not allowed indoors. How do you fight that?
> 
> 
> The thing about this cable is that it can function in 2 ways. If you run it in conduit above ground then it is just regular rhw insulation and is not considered USE however if you run it underground with no conduit then it is USE.
> ...


well i already provided the cut sheet and the pix/explanation. we also talked about this before too....


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Majewski said:


> well i already provided the cut sheet and the pix/explanation. we also talked about this before too....


I said it earlier too. It's like getting a red sticker for thhn in a conduit. Code SPECIFICALLY says thhn is dry location only.
Well, it's dual rated, THHN/THWN
Oh, but inspector doesn't want to look at the dual rating


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> I said it earlier too. It's like getting a red sticker for thhn in a conduit. Code SPECIFICALLY says thhn is dry location only.
> Well, it's dual rated, THHN/THWN
> Oh, but inspector doesn't want to look at the dual rating


Thats stupid


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

emtnut said:


> It does state it in the code book. It's dual rated.
> It's like failing you for using THHN conductors for underground conduit, when the conductor is dual rated THHN/THWN.





emtnut said:


> I said it earlier too. It's like getting a red sticker for thhn in a conduit. Code SPECIFICALLY says thhn is dry location only.
> Well, it's dual rated, THHN/THWN
> Oh, but inspector doesn't want to look at the dual rating


(Edited)

I missed this in the jumble, I think this is pretty much the answer. 

Similar question, can you use NM in underground conduit? No, it's not rated for wet locations. What if the individual conductors are rated and stamped THWN? Well, then you could strip off the jacket and use the THWN inside. But you still can't run the NM as-is in the underground conduit.

With USE-2, there's no jacket to strip off, so there's no issue; as long as the conductors are stamped RHH RHW, it's legal.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I posted this at another forum and they all think the inspector is incorrect. Basically it comes down to this---the inspector is saying that dual rated conductor cannot be used. If it is rated rhw-2 then it cannot be buried in a trench without a conduit. That is absolutely incorrect.

If the cable or conductor stated USE-2 and that was it then he would be correct but it is dual rated so in a sense it is rated for indoor use in conduit just as it is allowed in a trench without conduit. 

I would ask him why would he/she allow a conductor or cable that is dual rated with rhw-2 or mtw, or whatever the dual rating may be, in a trench. It is allowed because it is dual rated as USE-2. He can't accept it one way and not the other, IMO


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Ill just go fk myself i guess LOL


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Can someone tell me what the guy above just said ? He's on iggy


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Can someone tell me what the guy above just said ? He's on iggy


LOL


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