# cw/ce program



## coyledeals

i have been in the trade for five years at a merit shop finally decide that the only way to continue is at a union company there is no future in working non union i do not have a license yet because you can't take the test for six years without being in a apprenticeship program the union shop i have been talking to wants to bring me in as a construction electrician then i can do some schooling and a little more time and take my jw is this a good route to go or will i get alot of grief from the other jw's because of this any input would be appreciated thanks

btw the shop that i have been working for does only commercial and industrial work no residential


----------



## worn kleins

*Cw/ce*

Will you catch any grief from the JW's?? Just depends, on a lot of different things. First, why don't you just go through the regular apprenticeship? What is your age?
I am an IW (Inside Wireman), between my 25 and 30 year pin. I started when there weren't all the different classifications. It was a 4 year apprenticeship, not 5 years like now. I believe the JW, journeyman wireman, came about for those that did not go through the apprenticeship and/or couldn't pass the inside test. Someone correct me if that is not the case. Over the years the union has been trying all sorts of things to bolster their ranks, as there were losing more and more members. If it were not for organizing, the union numbers would be way down right now in the construction end of things. The latest thing is this new CW/CE classification. Here is the problem that I hear of from that, the pay scale is lower and thereby the contractors seem to be using this to lay-off JW's to save labor costs. So if there are a lot of JW's sitting on the out of work list, then yes there will be resentment when a CW/CE is working and a JW isn't. I have not worked around any CW/CE's because I am on the west coast and I believe the CW/CE thing is mostly being used in the south.
My advice to you would be to go through the apprenticeship if you can. It may be a pain in the butt, and you may feel that you "know" more than an apprentice, trust me you don't, but in the end it may be a better route to go, especially if you are planning on being in the union for the rest of your career. Earning your ticket the old fashion way will bring respect with it. You will never be questioned about where you came from.
When I joined the union I was coming from working in non-union shops and from working for a school district as their lead electrician. I took a pay cut when I started but I'm glad I had done it that way. For me it was worth the cost to have an Inside Wireman's ticket that I earned the old fashioned way.
Hope this gives you something to think about.


----------



## coyledeals

well i am 33 years old and i thought about testing for the apprenticeship but i have three kids and don't think i can afford that big of a pay cut as i am already taking one to become a ce as for the work load here i am told that it is currently a walk through book and thanks for your info


----------



## coyledeals

also i forgot to mention that the contractor that i'm hiring in with has said that this classifacation is there for only small commercial jobs so that they can compete against my former employer and other non union shops i would not be sent on any large industrial or plant mantinence jobs


----------



## rlc3854

Sorry but even being an IBEW JIW "A" ticket person the old adage of doing it the old way does not cut it anymore. Does the IBEW provide the best training yes however, the ABC and WECA-IEC are catching up and depending on where you live the training is provided through local voc-tech and junior colleges. Did our founding fathers do it the old way. What or how is it said we invite any and all working in our field to join our ranks until every person working in the trade belongs to the brotherhood. I know_ don't have that right but you get the picture._


----------



## Rong

coyledeals said:


> also i forgot to mention that the contractor that i'm hiring in with has said that this classifacation is there for only small commercial jobs so that they can compete against my former employer and other non union shops i would not be sent on any large industrial or plant mantinence jobs


 Well here in my local we had one each CW & CE on a industrial project. Yes they can better compete because they do not have to pay JW scale. Sore subject for me. Also in our local here we have 5th yrs running jobs as foremen making JW scale...other sore spot for me!

Don't get me wrong I am all for you getting into the program, but sometimes I don't like the way things are done.


----------



## miller_elex

I'll bet your new shop is full of people who were once non-union and are glad when a good hand crosses over. Then you have the guys who started union and stuck around the same shop forever, the shoppies, they will be glad to have you too. 
Lastly are the guys who get ten different W-2's every year, they don't want you around because you're taking away their welfare money. I'll bet the hall rats are going to be a little upset when they have to work for you, but that's as far as it goes most of the time, is pissing&moaning. There are a very few real troublemakers, but the same can be said for all walks of life. Honestly, take the CE job and work like you did for the non-union shop, with good quality not just quantity. Odds are you will go far.


----------



## All_amped_up

The CE/CW program AKA IJ program was designed for the workers that are not green, but lack a bit of education to be called a journeyman, or worked as a open shop journeyman but lacked education.
I'm in the CE program, CE 6 actually, so I on;y have to put in 3 short yrs of school, basically it's a fast paced trim the fat apprenticeship...you'll be learning the Theory, the NEC, motor control...stuff like that.
Yes it's hurting the JW's too. Contractors are hiring us as to do the same amount or type of work the JW's do at cheaper cost...therefore the JW's are screwed. Some take it out on us...but not too bad


----------



## daddymack

coyledeals said:


> also i forgot to mention that the contractor that i'm hiring in with has said that this classifacation is there for only small commercial jobs so that they can compete against my former employer and other non union shops i would not be sent on any large industrial or plant mantinence jobs


 
Don't believe that. You will be on all types of jobs. Coming in in that program will probably secure you some job stability but many of the JW will frown on you. 

The program allows you to upgrade your status but from what I have seen, most people stay where they are and make a regular check.

I can't fault anyone for taking care of their families just be prepared to take a little heat.

My personal view is I think it will force JW's to take a wage which in turn will cause non union to lower it's wages. This will become a race to the bottom. 

This program also pits brothers versus brothers.


----------



## miller_elex

In right-to-work states its either going to be the CE/CW program or even lower market share... what other choice do the people in those states have?

How many jw's are gunning to run work so they can learn more about the business, then strike out on their own, leaving the union behind?? Isn't that how the race to the bottom started?

When a man has a path to something better, like going CW then JW then FM if he wants, chances are good he'll be happy enough and a creature of habit to stay in the game on the right side. Keep a man working for less with nothing to lose, and he is going to strike out on his own and lowball work.


----------



## gilbequick

I'm pretty new to the Union. How old is the CW/CE program?


----------



## worn kleins

*Race to the bottom,*

I used to work/live in California. Illegal's are rampant in the state. These people will not only destroy your standard of living, but they have no problem destroying each other. A contractor only has to pull into about any Home Depot and these guy will compete against each other to see who will work the cheapest. You can bargain these guys down to 5 bucks an hour all day long. If you could ever get your elected officials to enforce the laws already on the books, you could put the labor pool back in balance. There are plenty of jobs out there, but how do you compete with someone who will work for 5 bucks an hour? If the politicians had the guts they could run a lot of contractors out of business in short order by closing down all the business's that are using illegal labor. A couple months in jail would work wonders for these guys. Get the labor pool back on track and you wouldn't need more idea's like CE/CW to compete. Supply and demand, it works. More jobs than electricians = higher/fairer wages.
PS- I got a kick out of listening to a guy complain after getting a couple guys from the "home depot temp agency" for 5 bucks an hour; "these guys don't speak English, I have to show them everything I want them to do!". have a nice day


----------



## All_amped_up

gilbequick said:


> I'm pretty new to the Union. How old is the CW/CE program?


In GA, I was called the IJ program {intermediate Journeyman} back around 2000. I'm not sure when it started or why they changed it. 
I think it was for recruiting...to get the numbers up in the Union. Basically for the guys that have worked in the field and can run pipe and wire and didn't want to take a pay cut or start from scratch as a 1st yr apprentice.
I don't understand it now, you have the CW 1-4 and then CE 5-8...SO does that mean if you come in as a CW 1 you have 8 years to turn out? I'm a CE-6 SO I have about 2 1/2 yrs left....


----------



## daddymack

I think it's all for political power in washington. The more members Ed hill can boast about having, the more influence he can have.

This CE/CW stuff will have a new name in a few years.



> How many jw's are gunning to run work so they can learn more about the business, then strike out on their own, leaving the union behind?? Isn't that how the race to the bottom started?


Not really. Having too many qualified people on the books and then having them start their own business or go non union to get a steady pay check. Also you guys willing to lower our scale in hopes our contracters can better compete.

If we circled the wagons and stopped taking in so many people, I think we could get back some of the market. The best of the non union would jump to be union if they knew work was steady and not 20 men for every one job.

I really would not mind seeing another union challenge the IBEW. Ed Hill has lost touch with the construction workers.


----------



## worn kleins

Right on Daddymack, Ed Hill and the IO forgot about the construction side. All they care about is numbers. Have you ever noticed how many people they bring in that aren't electricians? The IBEW now consists of grounds keepers, and I believe I heard somewhere the taxi drivers are IBEW. Funny how when wiremen get into the office they tend to forget where they came from. I learned many years ago the slogan is "I got mine, how are you doing"! A fish rots from the head down. I'm glad I got to be working when things were different. In my day the business manager wouldn't dare bring up something like different wage classifications, the members would have drug him outside and readjust his attitude. Of course back then the IO wasn't so quick to come in and take over a local either, and the local wasn't afraid to tell the IO where to go. The meetings were full with standing room only then. The IO took away the right to strike back in the early eighties, got rid of the eight hour workday, got rid of double time on ALL overtime. The IO said we had to "compete". Well look how almost 30 years later what all that competition has got us.


----------



## coyledeals

well i went to the local to get my referral today and after a long talk with the at the jatc office i am going to be testing into the apprenticeship program turns out that they make it damn near immposible to make jw going the ce route the testing consists of a five different levels of writen tests and six hours of hands on with four different instructors they intentionally make it much harder i was not informed of all this before i just wanna get in the union and learn as much as i can and with all the lpc's and motor control stuff that is tought in the school it will be a better route


----------



## daddymack

coyledeals said:


> well i went to the local to get my referral today and after a long talk with the at the jatc office i am going to be testing into the apprenticeship program turns out that they make it damn near immposible to make jw going the ce route the testing consists of a five different levels of writen tests and six hours of hands on with four different instructors they intentionally make it much harder i was not informed of all this before i just wanna get in the union and learn as much as i can and with all the lpc's and motor control stuff that is tought in the school it will be a better route


 
The problem is they just want bodies. Before the CE/CW, the had IJ"s JIT"s etc. As soon as those guys became JW's and got laid off, they went back non union for the security of it. They hope you remain at these lower levels and stay working at the lower scale. The folks who go through the apprenticeship understand that layoffs are apart of the job a little better then organized guys. Or at least more comfortable with it.


----------



## gilbequick

A lot of you guys look down on the CW's and CE's, but remember, they didn't choose that route, the Union did. Blame the Union, not the individual. They're there to earn a living and support their family just like you are.

Before the CE/CW program was in place, below the JW classification how did the pay scale work?


----------



## brian john

IBEW has never had a majority of members that are electricians. Many members work OR DID work for electrical manufactures, making circuit breakers, light bulbs, ETC.........


----------



## daddymack

> I'm glad I got to be working when things were different. In my day the business manager wouldn't dare bring up something like different wage classifications, the members would have drug him outside and readjust his attitude. Of course back then the IO wasn't so quick to come in and take over a local either, and the local wasn't afraid to tell the IO where to go. The meetings were full with standing room only then. The IO took away the right to strike back in the early eighties, got rid of the eight hour workday, got rid of double time on ALL overtime. The IO said we had to "compete". Well look how almost 30 years later what all that competition has got us.


i don't atted many union meetings anymore because we spend more time discussing what Ed Hill wants us to do rather then our own local business. 

It's funny how we tell non union workers to organize their shop so they can have a voice in their conditions. All the while we have a Dictator at the IO running us into the ground.


----------



## brian john

There are elections?


----------



## worn kleins

Right on again Daddymack. I haven't been to a meeting in some time also. I hate all the politics. I told the e board "since when did the local stop being a labor union and become a political action committee?". Their theory, well lets say the IO's theory, is that is if we control the politicians we control the market. Oh really!! Since when? That theory is working so well that we now have all sorts of wage classifications that it is hard to keep up with everything. Without organizing our numbers would not be enough for the IO to pay for their new building. Remember, the IO gets their money whether your working or not. Nice setup.
Congrats to ya Coyledeals. You'll do better and go further when you get your JW ticket. With that ticket you can travel and find work if you have to. Lay-offs are going to happen, just part of the job. There is always work somewhere. The IO is doing everything possible to stop travelers they can. If you ever get a chance to go to a "reunion", check it out. If you can make some friends there it can help with traveling if you ever have to.


----------



## coyledeals

thanks work kleins i'll do that i appreciate the info from all of you guys


----------



## gilbequick

worn kleins said:


> The IO is doing everything possible to stop travelers they can.


Why are they doing this?


----------



## brian john

In my expierence local electricians are trying to do this F***ing with travelers, cars, tools etc. A true sign of brotherhood.

In our area we have had/needed travelers and had numerous here, to my knowledge they are welcomed.


----------



## gilbequick

So why would the IO try to stop travelers?


----------



## daddymack

> IBEW has never had a majority of members that are electricians. Many members work OR DID work for electrical manufactures, making circuit breakers, light bulbs, ETC.........


I'd like to see proof of this. The IBEW or originally the NBEW was founded by a lineman. So at the very least they were the majority in the begining. I believe the organizing of manufactures etc, came along later.



> There are elections?


I guess i'm saying we as individuals don't vote for the IBEW president. 



> A lot of you guys look down on the CW's and CE's, but remember, they didn't choose that route, the Union did. Blame the Union, not the individual. They're there to earn a living and support their family just like you are.


They did choose that route. They could become an apprentice or test in at JW levels.

How many pay scales do we need? I always thought you were a JW or an apprentice, now there is something in between?

We are becoming more like non union where everyones pay is different and you can hold a job by taking less money. All that does is divide us. We make a decent wage and bennies because we stood together, but once we start brokering our own deals we might as well be non union and stop paying dues.

No disrespect to any CE/CW's but i had to layoff 4 jw's yesterday and they will probably be out of work for a good year. What would you do if you had to sit out that long? Probably go back non union. I 'm gonna fight to allow JW's to work in a ce/cw class on a temp basis in my local. I think that will do two things.

1) With JW's on the CE/CW bks many of the organized guys will be layed off. Will they stick around during the bad times?

2) It will encourage them to become a JW and fight alongside us. If you are gonna be layed off at times, it's best to do it on a JW scale.


----------



## worn kleins

Gilbequick, this goes back many years. In the begining most electricians/linemen traveled stringing wire across the country. Things evolve and locals are started and given jurisdictions. There were still alot of travelers that enjoyed moving around from job to job, state to state working, usually going to locals that had more work than they could man, travelers always being referred off of book 2. There was a group known as "fle's". Some believe their only purpose was to get onto jobs and stir up trouble, ie slowdowns, wobbles and wildcat strikes. Usually disagreements over conditions and the men taking matters into their own hands and not letting the hall take care of it. A lot of the times the halls weren't doing anything about the problems so the men on the job would. Fast forward. IO makes changes to stymie the travelers, in my opinion. #1- load up book 1 by forced organizing so that the chances of getting off book 2 are almost impossible. #2- changes to the book system so that if a member wants to travel, he looses his spot on the book at re-sign. This also screws the member if he wants to come home when there is work in his local because he is not on the books. Just for fun go to your local and get a print out of the number of members and the total worked manhours for each year going back 20 years. In my local the number of members has almost doubled and the total manhours worked has not. This does not effect everyone equally. A shoppee might be with a shop for 20 years and is not caused a loss of income from the increased membership. A member that works out of the hall will be doing good, on average, to work 9 months a year. His chances of traveling for work have been almost eliminated because other locals are in the same shape, hard to get off book 2. You get a chance to travel due to more work in a local than they can man, but, if you go work in the other local and you roll off your book back home, you may not be able to get back to work in your local for some time, something you would have to consider. Before these changes were made, each local decided their own fate when it came to how to run the books. I could travel and re-sign while I was on the road, that way I could come home when work picked up. This ebb and flow of electricians worked pretty well to man work across the country as needed. What I was told about the changes was that the IO wanted members staying put in their locals and salting. If a guy wants to salt, God bless him, I didn't. I would rather travel and man the work. Sorry to go on so long, it's complicated and just my opinion. Daddymack is right, the IBEW is becoming divided on the construction side. Member against member. This may not be true, but I had heard (rumor??) that a JW could volunteer to reduce his scale to sign the CE/CW book, or in some locals sign the JIT book. I got my NEBF letter a while back showing me what I would be getting from the IO for retirement , 30 years, good thing I don't need the money, yeah right, anyway don't get me started on that.


----------



## brian john

> If a guy wants to salt, God bless him


Have any of the SALTERS ever been hurt, I would surely think they could be taking their life in their own hands doing this. I know a few contractros that would break a few legs.

This is a low as you ccan go IMO.


----------



## gilbequick

daddymack said:


> They did choose that route. They could become an apprentice or test in at JW levels.


See the thing is if you're new to the union you don't know about any of this. You come in looking to join and are classified as a CE or CW by the union and are told that once you're in you can apply for the apprenticeship program. They did not choose that route. Well there are a very limited # of spots for a lot of people trying to get in, so what do you do? Either you get in or you don't. And if you don't test in at the JW level then you're still a CE/CW, so what then? Quit and not feed your family? This is a problem with the IBEW not the people who are classified as CE/CW. The IBEW is trying to get their membership numbers up when they don't have the spots in the classrooms for everyone they're letting join. 




daddymack said:


> No disrespect to any CE/CW's but i had to layoff 4 jw's yesterday and they will probably be out of work for a good year. What would you do if you had to sit out that long? Probably go back non union. I 'm gonna fight to allow JW's to work in a ce/cw class on a temp basis in my local. I think that will do two things.
> 
> 1) With JW's on the CE/CW bks many of the organized guys will be layed off. Will they stick around during the bad times?


Many CE/CW's ARE due paying members, so they're "organized" as well. It's not their fault the hall put them where they are. 



daddymack said:


> 2) It will encourage them to become a JW and fight alongside us. If you are gonna be layed off at times, it's best to do it on a JW scale.


Again, not all CE/CW's are able to become JW's just yet because they can't get into the program. Yes, there is a "CE/CW" program to progress to the JW status but it's a PITA program THAT IS designed to be a PITA because they want you to go through the apprenticeship program, NOT the CE/CW program. It's all about numbers for them and collecting as much $ from dues as possible. 

Fault the IBEW not the people working for it.


----------



## daddymack

> See the thing is if you're new to the union you don't know about any of this. You come in looking to join and are classified as a CE or CW by the union and are told that once you're in you can apply for the apprenticeship program. They did not choose that route. Well there are a very limited # of spots for a lot of people trying to get in, so what do you do? Either you get in or you don't. And if you don't test in at the JW level then you're still a CE/CW, so what then? Quit and not feed your family? This is a problem with the IBEW not the people who are classified as CE/CW. The IBEW is trying to get their membership numbers up when they don't have the spots in the classrooms for everyone they're letting join.


I many cases , probably most cases, a CE/CW is a non union JW or it's equivalent. When they get on a job, they are replacing a JW for a lower scale. We fought hard for our wages. Too me this spits in the face of that. If you want to be IBEW, then you need to respect the Brotherhood.

If you want to be organized in. I'm fine with it as long as you get no special treatment. Are you are willing to be layed off during the bad times.

If that were the case, we would not need the CE/CW.


----------



## coyledeals

i do want to be be ibew but don't blame me for being a cw/ce i didn't create it the ibew did so blame them and if it comes down to a strike what the hell difference does it make what my classifacation is a jw a cw a ce a apprentice they should all stand together just because i make less money than jw makes me no more likley to go running back to a merit shop than they guy that left with me and took his jw test


----------



## worn kleins

No doubt the IO created this mess. And just to drive home the point, the members don't elect the IO president. The IO is doing everything they can to keep numbers up. Many plans are not thought out about the effects at the local level. And why should the IO care about what the locals think, the locals can't do anything about it. The concepts are well meant and we should encourage every electricain to join. At the same time a better way can be found than creating all these different classes of electricians and different wage scales. Let me say that I have worked with some great electricians that were organized and passed the JW test. Remember that one of the requirements for a JW ticket was a minimum number of years experience/training. I know that a group of organized apprentices, who were placed in the apprenticeship year according to their years in the trade, challenged the test under threat of suit. This occured in my local about 10 years ago, maybe a little longer than that. This could have happened in other locals as well and my explain the creation of the CE/CW program. We ended up with the local organizing guys that had a PE designation, pending examination. They were getting the full JW scale, but they would not be willing to go through any apprenticeship schools. The sorry truth of the matter is the IO only seems interested in increasing numbers, remember you have to pay IO dues whether you are working or not. Building cycles with boom and bust times, but in my opinion the IO's battle cry is the damn the topedos full speed ahead!


----------



## daddymack

> just because i make less money than jw makes me no more likley to go running back to a merit shop than they guy that left with me and took his jw test [\QUOTE]
> 
> but it makes you more likely to run back then a guy who came through the program. When I got into the union, I was told time and time again that layoffs are a part of it. I accepted that. Many non union guys who get layed off start running back non union after a month or so.
> 
> This ce/cw program encourage contractor to keep the organized ie. cheaper labor and let the full scale guys sit at home because they know they will not leave.
> What if I was getting layed off and I went to the owner and told him I would work for 10 bucks under scale? That undermines the work all the past brothers have done to get us this wage.
> To me, the bottomline is this, if your are not an apprentice, then you should be paid the same amount as us. We fought for that and you guys are taking it away. I know the IBEW created it but now it's up to you to take a stand.


----------



## gilbequick

daddymack said:


> To me, the bottomline is this, if your are not an apprentice, then you should be paid the same amount as us. We fought for that and you guys are taking it away. I know the IBEW created it but now it's up to you to take a stand.


Come on man, CE/CE's ARE NOT TAKING IT AWAY!!!!! It's the people who designate them as that classification.


----------



## daddymack

gilbequick said:


> Come on man, CE/CE's ARE NOT TAKING IT AWAY!!!!! It's the people who designate them as that classification.


I mean no disrespect to you or anyone in or for the CE program. But i think the people who are getting in that way have little knowledge or respect for how the brotherhood works.

I think most of us will agree that the IBEW have been hurting us rather then helping on the construction side.

When someone comes in under the CE programThey undermine our collective bargining. The union is supposed to prevent that.

What happens if in a few years they create a new class that pays less then CE? How would you feel if you had no work because someone else is doing it cheaper?

We are getting to the point where it would be in A JW's best interest to bargin for himself. That being the case would make the union useless.

I have to stand for whats best for the union. I just can't get behind the CE/cw program.


----------



## worn kleins

I think the guys in the CE/W program are missing the point. The IO jammed this stuff on the locals whether we wanted it or not. It is not in the best interest of the IBEW to divide the construction side up into all these reduced scale classifications. In spite of what the local says or the IO says, there are CE's doing the work that normally a JW would be doing. There is nothing new about this. Just go out on a residential job and see the number of apprentices compared to JW's. We all know about the housing tracks without a JW on them. The contractor is making some nice money having not to pay any JW's. In the long run this is bad for the local. But, the hall knows this goes on but turns a blind eye to it. I don't know anything about how a CE moves up to JW. They didn't have any of this stuff when I was still working with the tools. Can someone explain what the CE/W program is. Is it about knowing too much to be an apprentice, but not enough to be a JW? I don't get it. Why doesn't the hall just slot you into the apprenticeship year that matches your experience and knowledge of the trade? At least that way you have a clear path to getting your journeyman ticket. I sure am glad I came through when it wasn't this complicated.


----------



## coyledeals

ok here is how it was spelled out for me a cw1 would be considered a green helper and and a ce3 is one step from a jw you are put into these classifacations based on how many hours of certified time you have in the trade and in order to move up a class you have to complete 160 hours of school and work 2000 hours in the trade if you make it to ce3 and want to get your jw they make the test about five times harder than the regular jw test these slots are supposed to be only used on small commercial and residential jobs where the signatory contractors have been getting beat up on price by the non union guys but just like everything else there are contractors that don't foolw the rules and stick these guys at ford or ups or some oil company but in my case i didn't have a choice i did have enough time in the field to qualify to take the jw test but didn't quite feel comfortable with that so ce was my only way to get my foot in the door


----------



## daddymack

worn kleins said:


> I don't know anything about how a CE moves up to JW. They didn't have any of this stuff when I was still working with the tools. Can someone explain what the CE/W program is. Is it about knowing too much to be an apprentice, but not enough to be a JW? I don't get it. Why doesn't the hall just slot you into the apprenticeship year that matches your experience and knowledge of the trade? At least that way you have a clear path to getting your journeyman ticket. I sure am glad I came through when it wasn't this complicated.


The problems is, unlike an apprentice, the CE don't have to move up. They can stay at a lower pay level if they feel. In turn all that does is create a pool of lower scaled JW's Which destroys what many have fought for.

If you want to test in or slot into an apprenticeship class, I say welcome aboard brother. But I can't get behind this program.


----------



## worn kleins

*CE, the IO strikes again*

Well, I didn't realize you could stay below JW. Yes that will cause some problems. I don't give a damn what the IO or the hall or the contractors say about it, there will be cases, and a lot I would bet, when shops will have the CE's doing JW work without having to pay the full scale. I heard that some locals were letting the JW's cut themselve's back to clear out on a JIT/CE/CW call. When work slows this will be a race to the bottom. Get rid of this horse crap and slot these guys into the appropiate apprenticeship slot. If a CE is being paid 60% of scale, put them in a 3rd year slot, or wherever. That way he is going to get a raise every 6 months and move toward JW. Makes sense to me. Or does the IO want to keep this guy at 60%?


----------



## miller_elex

Gawd, reading all this gives me a knot deep in my stomach.

Have you guys considered the work outlook now??

The ****e is hitting the economic fan out there.

I haven't slept well, hardly at all. It will be a while before it catches up here.

Electricians are going to be fighting tooth&nail for work. Its going to be ugly. Gawd I don't want to go through it, and I know the hall or the brotherhood DOESN'T have my back! Those fats and lazys at the hall just want their office job. The contractor just wants his cheapest composite man hour.

The question is whose salami do I have to gag on to keep working?? The last time I seen this there was alot of odd-jobbin and basement dope growing going on, and this time is supposed to be alot worse.


----------



## coyledeals

just wanted to update all you guys been at work for a month now no problems working for a company with 150 -175 guys in the field and everybody has been great been sent out for two different jobs both of them bid for ce rate with a jw running the job don't know if it makes anybody feel better but i am starting in the next apprenticeship class that forms


----------



## miller_elex

I heard the CE/CW program is coming to Oregon. 
This IS NOT A RIGHT TO WORK STATE!

I am going to get everyone I can to fight this tooth and nail.
What's the point anyways? Everyone in this state is in either one of two apprentice programs, the union or non-union. Everyone gets a certificate after they finish which is recognized. This CE/CW garbage is another gift to contractors which has got them licking their chops. Hell, the dopers and methheads have to work too, isn't that what the non-union is for? It is around here, that and resi-service shops.


----------



## Rong

I personally do not like the CW/CE program.I think the idea was to induce them to become apprentices. But most of them I have known make more than 2nd yrs,not much motivation to take a cut in pay plus go to class on their own time. I feel the JW class is a endangered species. In my local we already have 5th yrs acting as foremen,they get JW pay. Whats next a CE running the job? argghhhh!!! 


Please don't get me wrong! I am all for the working man. I just do not agree with some of the things I see, both the Union and Contractors practice.


----------



## brian john

> isn't that what the non-union is for? It is around here, that and resi-service shops.


And statements like this are what make open shop men HATE THE UNION.

The open shops do not have a lock on dopers and a drunk is every bit as bad as a doper in my opinion.

Till the union "Slammer hood" wakes up and quits taking shots at open shop workers and try to bring them into the fold nothing will improve for either side. The back stabbing and name calling is a waste of energy.


----------



## John

brian john said:


> And statements like this are what make open shop men HATE THE UNION.
> 
> The open shops do not have a lock on dopers and a drunk is every bit as bad as a doper in my opinion.
> 
> Till the union "Slammer hood" wakes up and quits taking shots at open shop workers and try to bring them into the fold nothing will improve for either side. The back stabbing and name calling is a waste of energy.


It is not just “the back stabbing and the name calling “of the independent Electrician’s that make them hate the union. It’s union members back stabbing and the name calling of other union members that is really disturbing. Why in the world would somebody want to join the union with members that have attitudes like this?


----------



## gilbequick

You'll have drunks or dope heads no matter where you go, wether it be in the corporate/office world or in the electrical trade. No one side has a lock-in on the losers.


----------



## william1978

I've worked several CE's and I think that some of them are better than some of the JW'S. So just because they are listed a CW or a CE does't mean anything.


----------



## Rong

brian john said:


> And statements like this are what make open shop men HATE THE UNION.
> 
> The open shops do not have a lock on dopers and a drunk is every bit as bad as a doper in my opinion.
> 
> Till the union "Slammer hood" wakes up and quits taking shots at open shop workers and try to bring them into the fold nothing will improve for either side. The back stabbing and name calling is a waste of energy.


 I agree Brian! In some areas being Union is not an option. And also I feel it is a matter of personal choice. Prejudice has no room in the world today. To me it shows ignorance in the worst way. It would be the same thing as me hating someone for driving a ford when I drive a dodge. 

One of the reasons I like this forum is because we have alot of different types of electricians here and we all pretty much get along. I am way to old to put up with petty BS. 

Stepping off of soapbox now.


----------



## daddymack

> It is not just “the back stabbing and the name calling “of the independent Electrician’s that make them hate the union. It’s union members back stabbing and the name calling of other union members that is really disturbing. Why in the world would somebody want to join the union with members that have attitudes like this?


It's nothing personal but we all see where this ce/cw stuff is going. It's not good for the union. We are fighting for the good of the union.



> I've worked several CE's and I think that some of them are better than some of the JW'S. So just because they are listed a CW or a CE does't mean anything.


What it means is the contractor is getting a good guy for peanuts. Why in the world would he pay a JW when he can get cw for less?

Thats why I say bring the guys in as JW's so we can keep our playing field level.


----------



## worn kleins

The CE/CW program is coming to every local sooner or later. Nothing new here. When did the apprenticeship go from 4 years to 5 years? Sometime in the 80's if I remember correctly. When did we lose the 8 hour day? When did they start taking money out of our checks to subsidize the contractors that bid a job below scale, that was called targeting, or the Kansas City Plan? When did some locals create different pay scales for different types of jobs? When did we start working under PLA's, which meant we gave up something from the inside agreement to get the job? When did the IO start giving big companies the OK to build brand new or modernize plants under the International Maintenance Agreements? When did Industrial jobs get the OK to work them at 80% scale? When did the locals start looking the other way when shops were running jobs with just apprentices? When did the Sound and Communication classification start up, doing what Inside Wireman used to do? The crap just keeps on coming. So my point is, better get used to CE/CW, I think it is here to stay if history proves anything. And now there is the code of excellence. Any of you guys out there been around long enough to remember "black friday's"?


----------



## gilbequick

daddymack said:


> What it means is the contractor is getting a good guy for peanuts. Why in the world would he pay a JW when he can get cw for less?
> 
> Thats why I say bring the guys in as JW's so we can keep our playing field level.



If you've got someone who settles for less pay then that's his own fault. If he's that good of an employee then the contractor would gladly pay the JW rate for him, but it's up to HIM to achieve and earn that pay: going through the proper steps, be that the apprenticeship program or proving himself through by way of the CE program.

If a guy who hasn't gone through the apprenticeship program knows as much as a guy who has, why do you all feel like he's got to go through the apprenticeship program to top out? Why can't he prove himself otherwise in a manner that proves he's equally if not more knowledgeable than his apprenticeship graduating counterpart?


----------



## daddymack

> If you've got someone who settles for less pay then that's his own fault.


If he is a cw then he has no choice but to take that pay.



> If he's that good of an employee then the contractor would gladly pay the JW rate for him,


Not if he don't have to.



> but it's up to HIM to achieve and earn that pay: going through the proper steps, be that the apprenticeship program or proving himself through by way of the CE program.


Say that "Johnny" has now advance through the ce program and is a JW. But now he gets laid off because the new ce's are cheaper labor. How does "johnny" feel now?



> If a guy who hasn't gone through the apprenticeship program knows as much as a guy who has, why do you all feel like he's got to go through the apprenticeship program to top out? Why can't he prove himself otherwise in a manner that proves he's equally if not more knowledgeable than his apprenticeship graduating counterpart?


I agree, If the guy has been in the trade a while and can show is JW status. Thats all you need. He should not have to go back to school.


----------



## cmec

When Ed Hill was BA at 712 that local was notorious for working tramps 9 yrs and 6 months and laying them off to beat them from vesting in the pension, My uncle who started me got laid off then rehired after 6 months his comment was all the IO cares about per capita dues and assesments.
After some lawsuits there is a recipical agreement on pensions between 712 and 5 I dont know about tramps?
I couldnt get an inside apprenticeship, So I started as an RW we were the residental unit of the local and werent acknowledged as members, all 2 or more scales dose is create hate and disscontent between the guys.
Couple that with no work in the 80 s and people that didnt or couldnt top out as jiws till they were 45 or 50 because they arnt related, it made lot of us the leading open shop contractors in the area .THEY LEFT A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH

Sounds like they will never learn:no: and history repeating itselfe, all they are doing is bringing everyones standards and conditons down and this could implode.


----------



## worn kleins

cmec, is 712 Beaverton? I had heard about ed's local taking a ton of money from the tramps working dues. I don't know if it true, you know how rumors get going, but I heard that the tramps also "contributed" to the local on payday by giving the steward a little something in cash in an envelope. Maybe there are some old timers out there can tell us something about this.
As far as different scales and classifications go, in my opinion this was brought about by the IO in an attemp to keep the cash flowing in, dues and assesments. Membership was declining year after year and the cash cow was going dry. Locals were overmaned after years of bringing in more members. To keep guys working and to refill the cash cow, we got all these new pay scales, all at lower pay than before for the same work. The training and education was also reduced as well. With a wink and a nod almost anyone can get a JW card after getting in through one of the lesser classifications. Just wait till ya see some of the guys they will be taking in through card check if it passes.


----------



## gilbequick

What's a "tramp"?


----------



## rlc3854

Traveler from another local.


----------



## cmec

worn kleins said:


> cmec, is 712 Beaverton? I had heard about ed's local taking a ton of money from the tramps working dues. I don't know if it true, you know how rumors get going, but I heard that the tramps also "contributed" to the local on payday by giving the steward a little something in cash in an envelope. Maybe there are some old timers out there can tell us something about this.
> As far as different scales and classifications go, in my opinion this was brought about by the IO in an attemp to keep the cash flowing in, dues and assesments. Membership was declining year after year and the cash cow was going dry. Locals were overmaned after years of bringing in more members. To keep guys working and to refill the cash cow, we got all these new pay scales, all at lower pay than before for the same work. The training and education was also reduced as well. With a wink and a nod almost anyone can get a JW card after getting in through one of the lesser classifications. Just wait till ya see some of the guys they will be taking in through card check if it passes.


Local 712 is in Beaver Falls Pa, IT includes the countys up the ohio line ,pretty sure its only 4 counties,it abutts local 5 on the east and south and ,and erie on the north ,They had a lot of work at shippingport neucular , bruce mansfield coal power house and industry at one point 

IF you go there its a classic rustbelt area in the 1950 mindset,drive a lettered truck across the county line and you will swear your being followed local 5 absorbed lots of the smaller locals but not 712, EDs probably at the IO to make sure the tramps pension money stays at 712
I have also heard everything else you talk about the BA before ed was a bigger slime with lots of political connections.Roomer has it when a 712 member travels they thread a lot of pipe and dig alot of ditches


----------



## miller_elex

Sometimes I do feel like a bit of an ahole, and I want to empathize with people who are in the midwest, south, and so on, and have been royally screwed or had someone in their family royally screwed by the union. 

I can deeply understand why the open shops out there have done so well, the union burnt so many bridges with good electricians that they went out on their own. That p1sses me off and hurt the hell out of any potential for good in the union movement.

In closing, let me say that if the union stepped on my toes like it did alot of the oldtimers, I'd beat feet out of there too. My uncle has done really well, but then again, he's a master suckup among suckups. Enough said.


----------



## brian john

worn kleins said:


> The CE/CW program is coming to every local sooner or later. Nothing new here. When did the apprenticeship go from 4 years to 5 years? Sometime in the 80's if I remember correctly. When did we lose the 8 hour day? When did they start taking money out of our checks to subsidize the contractors that bid a job below scale, that was called targeting, or the Kansas City Plan? When did some locals create different pay scales for different types of jobs? When did we start working under PLA's, which meant we gave up something from the inside agreement to get the job? When did the IO start giving big companies the OK to build brand new or modernize plants under the International Maintenance Agreements? When did Industrial jobs get the OK to work them at 80% scale? When did the locals start looking the other way when shops were running jobs with just apprentices? When did the Sound and Communication classification start up, doing what Inside Wireman used to do? The crap just keeps on coming. So my point is, better get used to CE/CW, I think it is here to stay if history proves anything. And now there is the code of excellence. Any of you guys out there been around long enough to remember "black friday's"?


 
When did all this happen? When Unions could no longer compete in the FAIR OPEN market. You have to be competitive and when you aren't, you either become creative in marketing with different pay scales or risk losing it all. Fact is owners do not want to lose it all, owners do not want to lose any of the work to open shops. So unions either adapt or go the way of the steel workers unions.


----------



## gilbequick

I've gotta mention, look at what happened to the UAW. The workers priced themselves out of a job.... The car market changed with the new auto makers coming in, changing the type of cars people were buying and how much they were spending on them. Instead of staying competetive with the market they chose to stand "strong". Now look at how the UAW's market share is doing. You can't always be a rock, sometimes you've gotta flex a little. What doesn't bend breaks.

So you can demand higher wages all you want, fact is that if there's another company that can do the same quality job for substantially less, you're not going to be working on that job. Now I'm not saying we all bend over backwards and take it, but we've got to be reasonable, and flexible to stay competetive and get work to keep us all busy. 

I'd rather be the guy making a little bit less working steadily than sitting on the couch being the guy who makes top dollar- but only when I'm working at all.


----------



## worn kleins

The UAW hourly wage isn't the real problem, it is the defined benefit retirement that is killing the companies. The defined benefit retirements are killing every business including governments as well. The states are now or will be soon be going broke trying to fund retierment benefits. On top of that you have fund managers that have their hands tied when they make investment deciscions. Unions tell the fund managers not to invest in companies that are not politicallly correct, for example non-union companies, even though it makes sense from a financial standpoint. The IO's NEBF retirement is a defined benefit right now, however, the little that they pay will never be a problem; about $35 per month for every qualifying year of service. Social Security is more money. Many locals no longer have any kind of defined benefit plans. They are going to defined contribution in order to avoid the mistakes of the UAW. So this new bail out for the UAW will mostly likely mean we the tax payers are giong to take over the retierment benefits. Of course the Japanese companies have no such retirement benefits to fund and therefore much less overhead. The only group of workers that have a fail safe retirement is the lying bastards in congress. One term and your on the gravy train for life. And all they have to do to fund theirs is raise taxes. It must be nice. And to show how these bastards think about us, remember they have an aproval rating of 9%, they continue to pat each other on the back as they spend like there is no tomorrow. There will be a special place in hell for everyone of them. The horse has already left the barn and the damn thing has burnt down and these bastards are now wasting time holding hearings on what went wrong instead of taking responsibility for their own stupidity and resigning. If the tax payers are on the hook for the future retirement benefits of the UAW we can add about another trillion to the debt. Damn it!!


----------



## daddymack

gilbequick said:


> I've gotta mention, look at what happened to the UAW. The workers priced themselves out of a job.... The car market changed with the new auto makers coming in, changing the type of cars people were buying and how much they were spending on them. Instead of staying competetive with the market they chose to stand "strong". Now look at how the UAW's market share is doing. You can't always be a rock, sometimes you've gotta flex a little. What doesn't bend breaks.
> 
> So you can demand higher wages all you want, fact is that if there's another company that can do the same quality job for substantially less, you're not going to be working on that job. Now I'm not saying we all bend over backwards and take it, but we've got to be reasonable, and flexible to stay competetive and get work to keep us all busy.
> 
> I'd rather be the guy making a little bit less working steadily than sitting on the couch being the guy who makes top dollar- but only when I'm working at all.


 
The truth is a lot of UAW workers have taken pay cuts. It has done nothing. Lowering the scale of their workers takes money out of the pockets of their best customers.

So they have really only hurt themselves by lowering wages not to mention abandoning the idea of making a decent affordable car.


A lot of non union people fail to realize that unions allow you to make the money you make. If uf unions lowered their scales to that of the average non union worker in their area. In no time the nonunions would start paying less to get the jobs. And you lose money

It's great that your employer makes money, but At some point you have to look out for yourselves.


----------



## gilbequick

Some may have taken pay cuts but the fact is that the average wage for a UAW person is $71 total package. $71 an hour!!! That's insane....they're on an assembly line doing the *same* thing all day long!

For each new car sold $2600 goes to pay employee benefits. That's a lot of jack just to pay for employee benefits. There comes a point where the company just can't sustain the demands of the employees.


----------



## norcalbay

Before blaming it all on the workers, remember the auto manufacturers signed that contract too. They agreed to all the terms just like the UAW to every contract. Who cares if they make $71/hr package? You're right it sounds insane to pay that much to an assembly line worker. Yet GM,Ford, and Chrysler all said, "Yea that sounds like a fair wage," and signed right on the dotted line.


----------



## brian john

Worn Klein's said it best, Kudos to you sir.


----------



## worn kleins

Norcalbay, I, in no way wish to put the blame on anyone for the current mess as far as the auto companies are concerned. My main point is to point out the antique business model that worked well 50 years ago, but does not compete with todays global market. I absolutely do not believe that the tax payers should be on the hook to continue this type of business plan/union contracts. My local took a pay cut of over 20% at one time and gave up all kinds of fringes. There was no one there with a bail out for us. Sour grapes? Maybe. It is real simple, the survival of a company depends on a reasonable amount of return on capitol investment. When Honda comes here and builds a plant and mans it with labor costs of $40 per hour, the plant up north with a labor cost of $72 per hour is going to longer exist. Is the average UAW worker going to have to take a big cut in pay? I guess that depends on his desire to work. I have been a union member since I was out of high school, damn near 40 years ago, and I have never bought anything other than Detroit cars and trucks, Ford, GM and Chrysler. All the bail outs in the world will not make these auto companies viable. The next industry to watch will be oil services. The enviro-nazi's won't allow any new drilling here and a push is being made to alternative fuels, ie no hydro-carbons, so will we have to bail out them next? What about the coal industry? How about electrical contractors? Now I could go for that, things are slowing down around here, just kiddin'. But what's next? When steam locomotives were replaced with diesel/electric locomotives, the union contracts still required a "fireman" (the guy who used to shovel the coal) to sit with the engineer. There is no easy answer and somebody is going to be pissed off, that you can count on. My personal choice would be to eliminate all taxes on both the companies and the consumers when they buy a Detroit auto for the next 10 years while they work something out. Removing these taxes would bring down the average cost of a new car or truck by at least $4000. Corporate tax rate is about 35% and sales tax is about 8% depending on where you live. Just a thought.


----------



## daddymack

gilbequick said:


> Some may have taken pay cuts but the fact is that the average wage for a UAW person is $71 total package. $71 an hour!!! That's insane....they're on an assembly line doing the *same* thing all day long!
> 
> For each new car sold $2600 goes to pay employee benefits. That's a lot of jack just to pay for employee benefits. There comes a point where the company just can't sustain the demands of the employees.


 
I would like to see where you got that number from. For at least the last 15 years assembly line workers have been taking pay cuts. My father retired from GM and I know for sure his package was not 71 per hr. When he nearing retirement, they were in the process of buying out the older workers and hiring new people at lower wages.

Like I said before, you can lower the wages all you want but then who's gonna buy those cars? Oprah don't drive Buicks.


----------



## brian john

daddymack said:


> Like I said before, you can lower the wages all you want but then who's gonna buy those cars? Oprah don't drive Buicks.


Like everything in the economy there is plenty of blame to go around, GM largest moneymaker for quite a while was GMAC Finance Corp. You see where the finance sector is, this mixed with employee retirement packages, high executive salaries and no one watching the future as the foreign car makers ZOOOMED by us, with us copying their advances (often poorly).

This economy thing is worldwide.


----------



## gilbequick

daddymack said:


> I would like to see where you got that number from.


http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/14/news/companies/bigthree_labor/
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2135.cfm
http://www.globalinsight.com/SDA/SDADetail9621.htm
http://www.247wallst.com/2007/08/gm-and-ford-a-u.html


----------



## daddymack

gilbequick said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/14/news/companies/bigthree_labor/
> http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2135.cfm
> http://www.globalinsight.com/SDA/SDADetail9621.htm
> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/08/gm-and-ford-a-u.html


 
I'm sorry I still don't buy it. Like I said, I know first hand while these reporters are not doing a proper job of following up on their sources.

Heres a source I found:

*What does an autoworker really earn? - The $73 hr myth *


The corporate media are perpetuating the false perception that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs. The primary reason they spread this propaganda is to paint the UAW workers as a bunch of highly overpaid workers. The corporate media is not your friend. They are being deceptive for a reason because they have an agenda.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28.50 per hour in wages, and by no means are they being payed $44.50 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. The so-called $73 per hour figure is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

The hourly wage for a newly hired non-core assembly worker is $14.25, with minimal benefits.

http://joetheautoworker.blogspot.com/


----------



## gilbequick

I give you several links of actual news sources and you give me one rebuttal link of "Joe The Autoworker"'s blogspot.

You can buy it if you want to, it doesn't matter to me any, you can't argue against the facts.


----------



## rlc3854

This is the same belief that the tax money spent today isn't money that hasn't even been generated yet. A company's cost is for all expenses not just what they need for today but, for yesterday and tomorrow as well.


----------



## daddymack

gilbequick said:


> I give you several links of actual news sources and you give me one rebuttal link of "Joe The Autoworker"'s blogspot.


I gave you one with several links from someone living it. Not third hand reports that were not checked out.

How many more links do you want?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml

I just didnt feel like posting more.




> You can buy it if you want to, it doesn't matter to me any, you can't argue against the facts.


 
I don't and won't buy it thank you very much. I know people with actual paychecks who can prove i'm correct.

You know those same media outlets claimed that Joe "the plumber" was not really a plumber because he has no license. I think they still havent realized that you don't always need a license.

So I guessed the lesson for today is to make sure your sources are reliable.


----------



## J Corrin

Here in Michigan the CE/CW program is a touchy situation. The union members hate it and the contractors love it, But our legeslatives just introduced a new bill that limits the ratio to 1 journeyman to 1 apprentice. The word is that this should get rid of the program here in michigan.....thank


----------



## daddymack

The Unions are taking a beating and the media ain't helping.


----------



## rlc3854

So at your local how does the ratio work since the ce/cw are not apprentice or journeyman? Can these folks work alone or must they work with a journeyman?


----------



## J Corrin

They are suppose to NOT work alone.....BUT the contractors are getting worse by the day and our useless B.A. don't help the worker out either.
Construction
Electricians
sCabbing
Work


----------



## william1978

J Corrin said:


> They are suppose to NOT work alone.....BUT the contractors are getting worse by the day and our useless B.A. don't help the worker out either.
> Construction
> Electricians
> sCabbing
> Work


 
Why can't they work alone? Some of these guys are very good electricians.


----------



## miller_elex

Here a union shop will take a general foreman or foreman from a non-union shop and make him a GF or FM at their own shop with a new truck or van. 

Nobody at the shop really cares, after they get to know the guy. Well, they don't care as long as that GF or FM got to where they are by being a people person and good electrician. The folks that have a big problem with it usually have more than a few W-2's for the year.

Typically the FM's and GF's are very loyal employees and the only reason they left was because they felt unappreciated for years extra effort and hard work. Not to say that most journeymen don't work hard, the GF's and FM's out there take their job home with them nights and on the weekend.


----------



## spoon

J Corrin said:


> Here in Michigan the CE/CW program is a touchy situation. The union members hate it and the contractors love it, But our legeslatives just introduced a new bill that limits the ratio to 1 journeyman to 1 apprentice. The word is that this should get rid of the program here in michigan.....thank



Here in California, I heard the journeman:apprentice ratio was something like 3:1 or 2:1. I tried looking up that info and got mixed results. I've never heard of CE or CW.


----------



## william1978

miller_elex said:


> Not to say that most journeymen don't work hard, the GF's and FM's out there take their job home with them nights and on the weekend.


 
I was a general foreman for a union shop and I NEVER took my work home.


----------



## mightyjoe

We did this to ourselves, showing friends and family. No years later we are trying to compete. Where I live nu is big are very diverse. They work is also excellent, and all I have spoken with want no part of organizing.


----------



## brian john

mightyjoe said:


> , and all I have spoken with want no part of organizing.


I have spoken with many open shop workers and most have a negative impression of the union. From not want to strike (we have a no strike policy), afraid of not working ( I have missed one day in 30 years), not liking the hate speech from SOME union members (this I have seen and heard and been on the receiving end of) and some are just happy with their lot in life and are not impressed with the often higher wages and better benefits.


----------



## Morg3081

I am new to the union - organized in a little over a year ago. Why'd it take so long? I chose to do my apprenticeship and work in small towns in beautiful places like Jackson Hole WY. where there IS NO union work. 

ANyway, I organized in after almost 18 years in the trade and could prove almost 25,000 hrs. (Still was missing W2's for 3 years due to a identity theft in 2000.) Yes, a lot of that time was residential, but most of it was service work, and a great deal of it was commercial. I also have taken Industrial Electricity classes and was a Robotics major in college. I did my time in the IEC apprenticeship program. Long story short, I ended up with about half those hours and was put in as a CE2 even though I had the hours for CE3. Frankly, I was just happy to be working.

I would LIKE to test for the JW but the local won't allow me until I get 14,000 hours. (On THEIR books.) I'm 51 years old, think the IBEW is great, but you know, I'll be dipped in **** if I am going back to school as an apprentice. I can understand taking classes - NO ONE know everything. I would like to take a class in rigid since I haven't done any serious rigid since I started in t he trade, which truthfully, was about 25 years ago - THOSE years spent working as a 'helper' don't count either.

My point is, I WANT to test in as a JW - and there was really no reason I shouldn't have been allowed to. I understand 'evaluating' a guy for awhile as well before letting him test, especially as my local got a bad rep for awhile with having guys walking through who really weren't journeymen. NOW it's gone in the other direction. The IBEW SAYS it wants good electricians to organize in, but when they get one, they make him a '2nd shelfer'? I an't even work in hot panels on some jobs because I'm not a JW. It's a matter of pride with me, and I'm trying to be patient, but for all the guys bitching about CE's working for lower wages, THAT was NOT my intention when I joined. Funny how after years and years in the trade I sort of expected them to allow me to test. 

One more thing. I am too damn old to go through ANOTHER apprenticeship. If I were to go to the trouble of going back to school, it would be to finish my Robotics degree. The whole thing's like a bad joke. Guys I work with respect me, and know I do good work and get the job done, and know what the hell I'm doing - something I really appreciate about other union electricians BTW. :thumbsup: I wish I had my ticket though, because my dad is now 74 with health issues and it would mean a lot to be able to travel. I understand under certain circumstances that CE's are allowed to travel, but I'm sure not happy about the animosity shown to CE's even though I totally understand it. Again, it was my LOCAL who diminished all the hard work I've put into the trade and put me where I am. Sometimes it's just a friggin' beauty contest, or who you know, and THAT ain't right. Rant over.


----------



## icefalkon

worn kleins said:


> Right on Daddymack, Ed Hill and the IO forgot about the construction side. All they care about is numbers. Have you ever noticed how many people they bring in that aren't electricians? The IBEW now consists of grounds keepers, and I believe I heard somewhere the taxi drivers are IBEW. Funny how when wiremen get into the office they tend to forget where they came from. I learned many years ago the slogan is "I got mine, how are you doing"! A fish rots from the head down. I'm glad I got to be working when things were different. In my day the business manager wouldn't dare bring up something like different wage classifications, the members would have drug him outside and readjust his attitude. Of course back then the IO wasn't so quick to come in and take over a local either, and the local wasn't afraid to tell the IO where to go. The meetings were full with standing room only then. The IO took away the right to strike back in the early eighties, got rid of the eight hour workday, got rid of double time on ALL overtime. The IO said we had to "compete". Well look how almost 30 years later what all that competition has got us.


Every local is different. There are varying degree's of this unions history taught throughout the United States. As for taxi drivers, groundskeepers,etc being part of the IBEW...that is correct. So are ALL of Madison Square Garden's employees...from the Carpenters to the Zamboni driver, as are most inside employees of most major horse racing tracks around the country. This is far from new...this was done in the1960's and 1970's to extend the power base of the IBEW. For right or wrong it was done. It's another 5000+ voices when time comes for a legislative vote. I got into the Apprenticeship in the early 80's...and here in NYC it was always a 5yr Program, we always had different Divisions, and have had a "version" of the CWCE since the 1960's called the M Division. It was not created to provide a "work opportunity" for those without formal apprenticeship training...its primary purpose is to have a division of labor that can directly compete with non union contractors on smaller jobs. Basically anything under one million dollars.

Then the IO came out with the CWCE Program which a lot of Locals don't like for many reasons. One is the paperwork, two is getting their minds around the fact that we are not the only game in town, three is that they simply did not foresee the problems they would have with contractors using THOSE electricians instead of AJ's (A Journeyman...the classification used BEFORE being called Inside Wireman) on jobs over the price limit for which they are classified to work. 

The concept of different Divisions isn't new at all. When I got my A Card...I left NYC and traveled for 5yrs. I worked in Montana, Colorado, and CA before heading back home. Other Locals had different divisions even back then. Now I teach for Local 3 and am a curriculum creator for the EVITP Program which is rolling out around the country; so I travel to other Locals periodically to train others. What you see now is shocking to some because before forums like this...there were very few people who knew what was going on in other Locals. If you weren't a "Traveler"...everything you heard was hearsay...and mostly bullsh*t.

This wasn't created to swell the ranks because of failing membership at all. LOL From down south to the guys in Alaska, the IBEW is still the best gig out there if you want to be an electrician. Sure you can go it on your own, work for an open shop...nothing wrong with that...but if you have a way to get in...then do it. Then take every class, improve your skills every chance you get, and you will see doors open up for you. 

There's a negative side to everything. Without a doubt...however, this Union is what YOU make of it. 

Remember it's a Brotherhood not a Neighborhood.

Steve from NYC


----------



## eagerbeaver

icefalkon said:


> When I got my A Card...I left NYC and traveled for 5yrs. I worked in Montana, Colorado, and CA before heading back home. Other Locals had different divisions even back then.


How was the union situation when you were in MT? I'm from MT but I'm doing my apprenticeship elsewhere, but eventually want to make it back there. Good group of guys?


----------



## Frasbee

I think apprentices should travel. Or at least do some residential, commercial, and industrial. Then once they become journeymen, focus on what they liked the best.


----------



## icefalkon

eagerbeaver said:


> How was the union situation when you were in MT? I'm from MT but I'm doing my apprenticeship elsewhere, but eventually want to make it back there. Good group of guys?


The boys from Montana were awesome! LOL I worked on the Coldspring Nuclear Power Facility. They grow some big boys in Montana man...LOL I remember being like..holy ****...these guys are enormous! I took a lot of ribbing being a "city guy"...but they were great. I have great memories of that job.

I agree about new journeymen traveling...but it's a different era. When I got in...everyone was about the same age...that was the norm. Guys had girlfriends but few had wives. It was easier to pick up and go somewhere. Now...forget it. Just about every apprentice is married, or has a kid or two. With that...none of the guys want to leave the big city...and IMHO they are missing out!

Steve from NYC


----------



## brian john

Frasbee said:


> I think apprentices should travel. Or at least do some residential, commercial, and industrial. Then once they become journeymen, focus on what they liked the best.


In most locals apprentices transfer between companies as a way to hopefully broaden their experiences.

I still feel 6-12 months residential should be mandatory. If you can't wire a house, apartment or condo after 6 months if doing this type of work you should hang up your tools.


----------



## eejack

Anything that broadens the skill and experience is fine with me. I have a habit of lending apprentices to other trades solely so we all get along better. I catch a ton of grief for doing it but the kids are less likely to complain about the other trades after doing some time with them.

I wish we had some residential opportunities for our members other than the volunteer work - I have no doubt it would help them tremendously.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Anything that broadens the skill and experience is fine with me. I have a habit of lending apprentices to other trades solely so we all get along better. I catch a ton of grief for doing it but the kids are less likely to complain about the other trades after doing some time with them.
> 
> I wish we had some residential opportunities for our members other than the volunteer work - I have no doubt it would help them tremendously.


I find the trouble shooting skills I learned doing residential are priceless in my job.


----------



## Frasbee

Most side work they'll do is residential. It's kinda more practical to know.


----------



## Morg3081

Personally I think everyone should get some experience with service work. I don't see how you can be a journeyman and not know how to troubleshoot. My personal experience is years of this type of work, and I have seen things that are nothing short of amazing. You develop a 2nd sense about some things after awhile. Electrons do funny things - like energizing the can on the main service on a double-wide. Turned out the homeowner (go figure) replaced some SP switches with 3-ways and landed the ground wire on the common. 

I've also seen Romex flayed open like a fish, all three conductors bare, and still carrying voltage, but what really made it impressive was that there were 6 of them, all melted into ALL the other home runs to the house. I asked the owner, ( a carpenter remodeling his girlfriend's house) to open up 12" at the top of the end of a room in the basement where all the homeruns ran from one outside corner (service) and popped out in the laundry room.

I was there to just clean up some TERRIBLE flying splices (Like 6/3 SO tied to 14/3 tied to...) and I noticed that the water heater had been refed (the yellow romex clued me in) with 12/3 of all things, yet there was a 10/2 damgling over the water heater, which I assumed was the original feed. Problem was, when I energized the 40A 2-pole breaker (which was the one breaker I couldn't figure out) Only one phase got hot. I checked it 3 times. 

My boss was expecting me to be done with the job, but I told him I had him open up the top of the wall (just 16" and hell, they were remodeling) and I would be back there tomm. Like most bosses he was a little mad at first, but the next day when I went back the carpenter's first words were: 'How did you know?' Scariest thing I ever saw and I dealt with Knob and tube a lot. (Nothing wrong with knob & tube in good condition other than age of the insulation - I much prefer it over the paper wrapped 2-wire I've seen here in PHX.)

I got nailed a few times separating the wires (no, I wasn't wearing gloves and I didn't shut down the entire service sine she was home - something I would definitely do now. See what I mean about the learning process? The joists were CHARCOALED where the wires had fried. It wasn't a bundling problem IMO - there was plenty of airspace, and no insulation although we did make the holes larger, it was more the previous owners overloading the circuits. We amprobed everything before we left. It was a weird feeling knowing that I had likely saved multiple lives.

Anyway, sorry for the long story, I know everyone here has stories like that, but my point is, EVERY electrician should have troubleshooting experience, preferably as an apprentice working with someone who has experience. Being able to pass a test isn't going to help you when a homeowner asks you for a switched receptacle under a light switch in a room, you cut it in, then realize the light is cold switched. Ask me how I know. :whistling2:


----------



## Frasbee

Morg3081 said:


> Personally I think everyone should get some experience with service work. I don't see how you can be a journeyman and not know how to troubleshoot. My personal experience is years of this type of work, and I have seen things that are nothing short of amazing. You develop a 2nd sense about some things after awhile. Electrons do funny things - like energizing the can on the main service on a double-wide. Turned out the homeowner (go figure) replaced some SP switches with 3-ways and landed the ground wire on the common.
> 
> I've also seen Romex flayed open like a fish, all three conductors bare, and still carrying voltage, but what really made it impressive was that there were 6 of them, all melted into ALL the other home runs to the house. I asked the owner, ( a carpenter remodeling his girlfriend's house) to open up 12" at the top of the end of a room in the basement where all the homeruns ran from one outside corner (service) and popped out in the laundry room.
> 
> I was there to just clean up some TERRIBLE flying splices (Like 6/3 SO tied to 14/3 tied to...) and I noticed that the water heater had been refed (the yellow romex clued me in) with 12/3 of all things, yet there was a 10/2 damgling over the water heater, which I assumed was the original feed. Problem was, when I energized the 40A 2-pole breaker (which was the one breaker I couldn't figure out) Only one phase got hot. I checked it 3 times.
> 
> My boss was expecting me to be done with the job, but I told him I had him open up the top of the wall (just 16" and hell, they were remodeling) and I would be back there tomm. Like most bosses he was a little mad at first, but the next day when I went back the carpenter's first words were: 'How did you know?' Scariest thing I ever saw and I dealt with Knob and tube a lot. (Nothing wrong with knob & tube in good condition other than age of the insulation - I much prefer it over the paper wrapped 2-wire I've seen here in PHX.)
> 
> I got nailed a few times separating the wires (no, I wasn't wearing gloves and I didn't shut down the entire service sine she was home - something I would definitely do now. See what I mean about the learning process? The joists were CHARCOALED where the wires had fried. It wasn't a bundling problem IMO - there was plenty of airspace, and no insulation although we did make the holes larger, it was more the previous owners overloading the circuits. We amprobed everything before we left. It was a weird feeling knowing that I had likely saved multiple lives.
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the long story, I know everyone here has stories like that, but my point is, EVERY electrician should have troubleshooting experience, preferably as an apprentice working with someone who has experience. Being able to pass a test isn't going to help you when a homeowner asks you for a switched receptacle under a light switch in a room, you cut it in, then realize the light is cold switched. Ask me how I know. :whistling2:


Becoming a journeyman does not mean you are done learning. It means you have enough skills and experience to be able to tackle new challenges.


----------



## Morg3081

Exactly. My parents and grandparents always taught us that if you think you know it all, you cannot learn anything new. This trade is about learning all the 'tricks' of the trade to allow you to complete the job even when problems seem insurmountable. I've had the good fortune to work with a number of really good electricians. I now find myself passing these tricks I've learned over the years to younger apprentices. I still have plenty to learn - I don't think you ever stop learning in this trade, unless you close yourself off to it. In fact, that's the reason I joined this forum - to learn something new.


----------



## MollyHatchet29

Those tips and tricks that the good jw's take time to teach us youngins are much appreciated. It gets me in the mindset of thinking about things differently and outside the box. We had certain tricks like that in the Army and it always gave me a good feeling to pass them down to the new kids.


----------



## icefalkon

Here in Local 3 Apprentices don't get to stay with just one shop. Every year we rotate them to another shop to learn a different aspect of the industry. This gives them a general feel for the industry as a whole...and prepares them for their 5th Year. Historically, in 5ht Year, the Apprentice would be working alongside our M Division guys...operating a truck doing service calls and thinking on their own.

Unfortunately it's rare these days for that to happen. Fewer and fewer shops are putting the kids out on vans doing service calls these days. It's a damn shame. I spent my entire 5th year doing services and residential work on Staten Island, NY. Nowadays some of these kids think they still get to go for coffee because they have an Apprentice status...

There's the path of least resistance...then you have the path to least amount of work...not sure which category these kids fall under...lol

Steve from NYC


----------



## brian john

icefalkon said:


> Here in Local 3 Apprentices don't get to stay with just one shop. Every year we rotate them to another shop to learn a different aspect of the industry. This gives them a general feel for the industry as a whole...and prepares them for their 5th Year. Historically, in 5ht Year, the Apprentice would be working alongside our M Division guys...operating a truck doing service calls and thinking on their own.
> 
> Unfortunately it's rare these days for that to happen. Fewer and fewer shops are putting the kids out on vans doing service calls these days. It's a damn shame. I spent my entire 5th year doing services and residential work on Staten Island, NY. Nowadays some of these kids think they still get to go for coffee because they have an Apprentice status...
> 
> There's the path of least resistance...then you have the path to least amount of work...not sure which category these kids fall under...lol
> 
> Steve from NYC


Changing times? bad economy, I hope it is not the coddling they received in a world of everyone gets a trophy.


----------



## Frasbee

Apprentices need to work alone and make their own mistakes as well as achieve their own successes. Otherwise they'll never be comfortable taking leadership positions.


----------



## icefalkon

brian john said:


> Changing times? bad economy, I hope it is not the coddling they received in a world of everyone gets a trophy.


Me too Bri...me too...


Sreve from NYC


----------



## vasparky27

I joined my local as a CE after 10 years of working mostly residential non union. After a year as a CE I tested into the apprenticeship.


----------



## spiderneck30

Hello guys. I have just recieved my initiation letter for local 25 in long island ny. The letter says that i will be joining the cw/ce program. Ive been searching online for SPECIFIC information about this particular program...as it applies to local 25.
I havent found much except for different info from other locals around the country whose wage scale and program format differ from one another. I need the specific info as it applies to local 25. I called up the local and was told that i will recieve the information once i am initiated. However i wont be initiated until October 9 and i would really like to have some sort of idea as to what it is exactly that i will be doing. From reading the forum here i understand that it is not part of the regular apprentice-to-journeyman thing. Therefore my question is..then what is it? Can i progress? Is there any schooling? If not then can i switch to the regular apptenticeship? If so, how? And what do i have to do? How many levels are there before becoming a journeyman? What is the pay rate for EVERY LEVEL of this program IN LOCAL 25?

Questions like the are what i need answers to. Searching online i get nowhere except for the info as it applies to OTHER locals. Large pdf files on the cw/ce program for other locals. I know the answers to these questions for just about every local except for the one i am going into lol.

If there is anyone here from local 25 ,or hell even local 3 which is right next door, then can you please inform me.


----------



## icefalkon

spiderneck30 said:


> Hello guys. I have just recieved my initiation letter for local 25 in long island ny. The letter says that i will be joining the cw/ce program. Ive been searching online for SPECIFIC information about this particular program...as it applies to local 25.
> I havent found much except for different info from other locals around the country whose wage scale and program format differ from one another. I need the specific info as it applies to local 25. I called up the local and was told that i will recieve the information once i am initiated. However i wont be initiated until October 9 and i would really like to have some sort of idea as to what it is exactly that i will be doing. From reading the forum here i understand that it is not part of the regular apprentice-to-journeyman thing. Therefore my question is..then what is it? Can i progress? Is there any schooling? If not then can i switch to the regular apptenticeship? If so, how? And what do i have to do? How many levels are there before becoming a journeyman? What is the pay rate for EVERY LEVEL of this program IN LOCAL 25?
> 
> Questions like the are what i need answers to. Searching online i get nowhere except for the info as it applies to OTHER locals. Large pdf files on the cw/ce program for other locals. I know the answers to these questions for just about every local except for the one i am going into lol.
> 
> If there is anyone here from local 25 ,or hell even local 3 which is right next door, then can you please inform me.



See my response to you in your own thread.

Steve from NYC


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> I find the trouble shooting skills I learned doing residential are priceless in my job.


That won't happen in so cal unless you learn spanish.:laughing:


----------



## icefalkon

big2bird said:


> That won't happen in so cal unless you learn spanish.:laughing:


NYC also lol.

But...to be honest. I've run into some damn fine Latino electricians who get into Local 3 through their shops becoming organized. Not ALL ...but the ones that are actually interested in improving their skills (and English) often amaze people.

Steve from NYC


----------



## brian john

big2bird said:


> That won't happen in so cal unless you learn spanish.:laughing:


Yeah why limit you knowledge, with something that has been shown to improve your skills and understanding of the trade.

Hispanics or those from south of the border (when legal) are as capable as any of us, heck even the illegals are as good or better than many American, BUT if illegal they should be sent packing.


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> BUT if illegal they should be sent packing.


I need your help. They estimate there are 20,000,000 of them here. Busy?


----------



## icefalkon

big2bird said:


> I need your help. They estimate there are 20,000,000 of them here. Busy?


LOL



Steve from NYC


----------



## brian john

big2bird said:


> I need your help. They estimate there are 20,000,000 of them here. Busy?


Illegals are everywhere in the very rural parts of the country to the inner city. While the CA, leads the nation others states are trying to play catch up and the government attacks Arizona and a few other states that try to handle the problem themselves. But the unions support the man leading the charge to let them in.


----------



## knowshorts

big2bird said:


> That won't happen in so cal unless you learn spanish.:laughing:





big2bird said:


> I need your help. They estimate there are 20,000,000 of them here. Busy?


You sound slightly racist. You work for GES and there are hundreds of you building the auto show. Look around, the majority of guys probably have some sort of Hispanic background. I bet there is not one person on the convention floor that you couldn't communicate with in English. 

20 million? Really? Come on. There's only 37 million in the state.


----------



## brian john

knowshorts said:


> You sound slightly racist. You work for GES and there are hundreds of you building the auto show. Look around, the majority of guys probably have some sort of Hispanic background. I bet there is not one person on the convention floor that you couldn't communicate with in English.
> 
> 20 million? Really? Come on. There's only 37 million in the state.


 
Arnold (The Terminator) is legal right????:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I bet Maria wishes he wasn't so she could deport his big butt.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> But the unions support the man leading the charge to let them in.


Let them in, just make them pay taxes like me and I could care less. My forefathers came from elsewhere, same as I suspect most Americans. The only two differences between them and me is I pay taxes and we call them illegal.

So call them legal and get them into the system. Not complicated.


----------



## Frasbee

eejack said:


> Let them in, just make them pay taxes like me and I could care less. My forefathers came from elsewhere, same as I suspect most Americans. The only two differences between them and me is I pay taxes and we call them illegal.
> 
> So call them legal and get them into the system. Not complicated.


Sounds like the cw/ce program. Get them in and take those dues.


----------



## eejack

Frasbee said:


> Sounds like the cw/ce program. Get them in and take those dues.


Excellent point. I may be one of the rare "A" journeymen who thinks so, but I am all for the cw/ce program, and that is one the reasons why.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Let them in, just make them pay taxes like me and I could care less. My forefathers came from elsewhere, same as I suspect most Americans. The only two differences between them and me is I pay taxes and we call them illegal.
> 
> So call them legal and get them into the system. Not complicated.


They came illegally DEPORT THEM.


Those that are waiting years to do this legally (my wife's family is being told 8 years) are being told tough luck to many illegals here now to let in more legals. They speak English, have a trade/profession and could easily find work. BUT NO.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> They came illegally DEPORT THEM.
> 
> 
> Those that are waiting years to do this legally (my wife's family is being told 8 years) are being told tough luck to many illegals here now to let in more legals. They speak English, have a trade/profession and could easily find work. BUT NO.


This is not a police state, we don't have secure borders, we don't have to provide 'papers' to do anything, and honestly I would rather not have to end up like some third world country.

We cry about the invasions to our privacy now, how about when officers come knocking on your door wanting to see everyone's identification in your home? Because that is where it ends up.

Remove immigration restrictions, tax everyone, move on to something important.

And, if you are into the whole invisible hand idea, they will all go home once businesses have to pay them properly and pay taxes on them anyway. The concept of illegal workers only benefits who? Business owners who are willing to hire them.


----------



## brian john

eejack;823242
And said:


> I would punish businesses not the workers, I don't blame them for coming, I blame the government and businesses for allowing it.
> 
> You slap a few heavy fines on the employers and you'd see some changes.
> 
> I employee legals and play by the rules EVERYONE should.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> I would punish businesses not the workers, I don't blame them for coming, I blame the government and businesses for allowing it.
> 
> You slap a few heavy fines on the employers and you'd see some changes.
> 
> I employee legals and play by the rules EVERYONE should.


I really don't like the idea of assigning blame, especially in a complex problem like this one. But, if required, it belongs squarely on the shoulders of businesses that cheat the entire country by not paying taxes on their workforce. Those same businesses probably have the same regard for environmental laws, consumer and work safety, sound accounting practices and a host of other things.


----------



## knowshorts

eejack said:


> I really don't like the idea of assigning blame, especially in a complex problem like this one. But, if required, it belongs squarely on the shoulders of businesses that cheat the entire country by not paying taxes on their workforce. Those same businesses probably have the same regard for environmental laws, consumer and work safety, sound accounting practices and a host of other things.


I'm just a small fish and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the tax law, but if an employer hires illegals and pays cash, isn't that same employer gonna pay more in taxes by not having the benefit of deducting the cost of employees on the company taxes?


----------



## slickvic277

knowshorts said:


> I'm just a small fish and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the tax law, but if an employer hires illegals and pays cash, isn't that same employer gonna pay more in taxes by not having the benefit of deducting the cost of employees on the company taxes?


no..


----------



## electricalwiz

slickvic277 said:


> no..


why do you say no, I would have to check with my account to be sure but I would think as the owner I am showing more profit, which means more taxes


----------



## knowshorts

electricalwiz said:


> why do you say no, I would have to check with my account to be sure but I would think as the owner I am showing more profit, which means more taxes


That's the way I see it.


----------



## Celtic

The contractor is paid by some customers with cash...
some of this cash is never reported to the IRS...
some of that cash goes to pay employees "off the books"...

No tax is paid on any of it


----------



## electricalwiz

Celtic said:


> The contractor is paid by some customers with cash...
> some of this cash is never reported to the IRS...
> some of that cash goes to pay employees "off the books"...
> 
> No tax is paid on any of it


I understand that, but either way you look at that situation income taxes are not being paid


----------



## eejack

knowshorts said:


> I'm just a small fish and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the tax law, but if an employer hires illegals and pays cash, isn't that same employer gonna pay more in taxes by not having the benefit of deducting the cost of employees on the company taxes?


Perhaps, but if he is willing to steal from his employees and from the government, does it play out that he is either hiding the money some other way or lying about his other expenses?

What I mean is, technically, if the only illegal act he took was not paying all those taxes, and then lost the deductible expense of payroll then his business would be liable for taxes on that money. But even so, business income taxes are lesser than all the combined payroll taxes, especially including the employer contributions for fica etc.


----------



## icefalkon

eejack said:


> Perhaps, but if he is willing to steal from his employees and from the government, does it play out that he is either hiding the money some other way or lying about his other expenses?
> 
> What I mean is, technically, if the only illegal act he took was not paying all those taxes, and then lost the deductible expense of payroll then his business would be liable for taxes on that money. But even so, business income taxes are lesser than all the combined payroll taxes, especially including the employer contributions for fica etc.


Good point!

Steve from NYC


----------



## big2bird

knowshorts said:


> You sound slightly racist. You work for GES and there are hundreds of you building the auto show. Look around, the majority of guys probably have some sort of Hispanic background. I bet there is not one person on the convention floor that you couldn't communicate with in English.
> 
> 20 million? Really? Come on. There's only 37 million in the state.


My two best friends in first grade were hispanic. I had meals with them in their homes numerous times. At high school reunions, they tell me how they DETEST illegal immigrants. They feel all their parents hard work to do it legally within the system has been wiped clean by their illegal counterparts.
Jamb the racist card back in your pocket. It just does not apply to me. 
BTW, california, according to the last census, is now 49% hispanic. I found it extremely hard to believe that many completed their paperwork.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> I* really don't like the idea of assigning blame, especially in a complex problem like this one. But, if required, it belongs squarely on the shoulders of businesses that cheat the entire country by not paying taxes on their workforce. *Those same businesses probably have the same regard for environmental laws, consumer and work safety, sound accounting practices and a host of other things.


Actually the government for not enforcing existing laws.


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> Actually the government for not enforcing existing laws.


Yep. I have to agree with that 100%.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> Actually the government for not enforcing existing laws.


So businesses who break the law are blameless because government doesn't have enough resources to enforce it?

Interesting.

So if I do electrical work without permits and don't get caught does that mean I am not breaking the law? Do we need to hire a lot more inspectors to make certain I don't do that? How many do we need to adequately protect us against unpermitted work?

Of course, how do we pay for all these inspectors?


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> So businesses who break the law are blameless because government doesn't have enough resources to enforce it?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> So if I do electrical work without permits and don't get caught does that mean I am not breaking the law? Do we need to hire a lot more inspectors to make certain I don't do that? How many do we need to adequately protect us against unpermitted work?
> 
> Of course, how do we pay for all these inspectors?


EE

Check my post I say get the businesses, but we can't get the businesses unless the bufoons in Washington DC do their jobs.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> EE
> 
> Check my post I say get the businesses, but we can't get the businesses unless the bufoons in Washington DC do their jobs.


There is not enough government to enforce the laws. Everyone wants more law enforcement and smaller government at the same time. That works like the same magic of reducing taxes to increase tax revenues.

I don't know the answer, but by giving the illegal workers a voice ( ie making them legal so that the threat of deporation isn't a big stick that businesses can use to keep its workers under paid ) makes enforcement easier - and provides more tax revenue.

Though I do find it strange that the same people who want lower taxes also want smaller government and less regulations. Oddly self serving.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> There is not enough government to enforce the laws. Everyone wants more law enforcement and smaller government at the same time. That works like the same magic of reducing taxes to increase tax revenues.


 


There is too much government but the inefficiency of those fools in Washington squander away money and time playing FreeCell.





> Though I do find it strange that the same people who want lower taxes also want smaller government and fewer regulations. Oddly self-serving.


 

NO WHERE did I say lower taxes, I would be willing to pay more taxes (and I guarantee you, I pay more than my fair share) but I am damn if I want to pay more to a government that is wasting money like ours does.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> There is too much government but the inefficiency of those fools in Washington squander away money and time playing FreeCell..


This is what government looks like to brian john.











So why bother discussing anything with him?


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> This is what government looks like to brian john.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why bother discussing anything with him?


 
Because I have posted constructive criticism and you have no reasonable response.

If we can't discuss WHY the union is shrinking and what YOU think will improve it and take some input from others you are right discussion over.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> This is what government looks like to brian john.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why bother discussing anything with him?


At least you caught him when he was not sleeping>


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> If we can't discuss WHY the union is shrinking and what YOU think will improve it and take some input from others you are right discussion over.


We can do just that. Start a thread Brian.:thumbsup:


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Perhaps, but if he is willing to steal from his employees and from the government, does it play out that he is either hiding the money some other way or lying about his other expenses?
> 
> What I mean is, technically, if the only illegal act he took was not paying all those taxes, and then lost the deductible expense of payroll then his business would be liable for taxes on that money. But even so, business income taxes are lesser than all the combined payroll taxes, especially including the employer contributions for fica etc.


And unions were tied to some of the biggest corruption scandals of the 40's-70's


----------



## icefalkon

eejack said:


> There is not enough government to enforce the laws. Everyone wants more law enforcement and smaller government at the same time. That works like the same magic of reducing taxes to increase tax revenues.
> 
> I don't know the answer, but by giving the illegal workers a voice ( ie making them legal so that the threat of deporation isn't a big stick that businesses can use to keep its workers under paid ) makes enforcement easier - and provides more tax revenue.
> 
> Though I do find it strange that the same people who want lower taxes also want smaller government and less regulations. Oddly self serving.


True...it's like this...I think we all can relate to this...

There are items in the NEC that state specific rules that must be followed...we all know this. However, many of these thing are unenforceable as there are simply not enough inspectors to go around. In this era of cutbacks...throw a new version of the electrical code in...stricter than ever...into a city with over 5000 licensed electrical contractors...and a total of 60 inspectors to cover 5 Borough's. There are lots of laws out there...but not enough people to enforce them. 

So what do they do...they go after the big violators...as with tax evasion. The first to get busted are the big guys...and if you keep being a bad person, and they catch you with a major violation...then you're on their "list". Each inspector knows you've been a bad boy sometime in the past. I think the same thing applies to paying/not paying taxes. 

First they go after the big violators...but eventually, if you play games for long enough, they get to the little guys. I know an owner very well here...we went through our Apprenticeship together. He played that game...hiring illegals to do trench work, etc...and eventually he got caught for tax evasion.

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> And unions were tied to some of the biggest corruption scandals of the 40's-70's


Nice way of dragging the unions back into the discussion - you really just don't have anything nice to say, do you?

No one is discussing union corruption but what the heck - let us light another fire.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Nice way of dragging the unions back into the discussion - you really just don't have anything nice to say, do you?
> 
> No one is discussing union corruption but what the heck - let us light another fire.


 
What I am trying to make you see and I realize you do not want to, is there have been problems on both sides.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> What I am trying to make you see and I realize you do not want to, is there have been problems on both sides.


No, what you are trying to do is come across like a benevolent and concerned union contractor with noble ideas that the unwashed masses don't see because we are blinded by our unfettered and slavish devotion to the union. I have been doing this a long time, so drop your pretense.

I fully understand what it means to be union - you do not. Do not dare lecture me on the problems that come from the unions, especially when you are consistently negative about the union, its traditions and its members. Your contempt for what unions do and are drips from nearly every single post of yours.

Stop helping.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> No, what you are trying to do is come across like a benevolent and concerned union contractor with noble ideas that the unwashed masses don't see because we are blinded by our unfettered and slavish devotion to the union. I have been doing this a long time, so drop your pretense.
> 
> I fully understand what it means to be union - you do not. Do not dare lecture me on the problems that come from the unions, especially when you are consistently negative about the union, its traditions and its members. Your contempt for what unions do and are drips from nearly every single post of yours.
> 
> Stop helping.


:yawn:

He who carries a rat. GO FOR IT.


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> What I am trying to make you see and I realize you do not want to, is there have been problems on both sides.


Start a thread Brian. I'm all in.


----------



## big2bird

brian john said:


> And unions were tied to some of the biggest corruption scandals of the 40's-70's


Kinda like that Republican Nixon thing? Or that Presidential pardon thingy?:laughing:


----------



## brian john

big2bird said:


> Kinda like that Republican Nixon thing? Or that Presidential pardon thingy?:laughing:


I was speaking about unions and business wise. Politically Nixon takes the cake for being foolish, he had the election and his paranoia got him in the end, screwing the country and his party and himself.


----------



## Frasbee

I can't edit the photo because I'm posting from my phone but it shouldn't be too hard to read.


----------



## arson

*The real deal. 2013*

....


----------



## arson

....


----------



## icefalkon

Boy...I've been gone for a little while and look what I've missed! LOL


----------



## TGGT

arson said:


> You aren't paying the same NEBF or H/W as we A memeber Why do you think you are entitled to what apprentices have earned. Join the system the way we did. many of us could have organized or filed in as CW/CE's but we did NOT. Which we could have but again we DID NOT. So don't blame the union blame the easy road... you took it we did NOT. You are entitled to whatever hard road presents itself as we had to deal with. CW CE is a divide and conquer... split wages split this and that.. splits the union if you cared about the union you would have joined it not joined a division of the union so don't bitch about any hardships you encounter.. How many of you have never stepped foot on a industrial or heavy commercial job to say you have... Guess what I have worked many years and held mc less than 1/15 of my career wiring main panels main switchgear and building to spec many municipalities transformer underground's and there is no comparison when you bitch or complain because... You haven't paid your dues... pulling rat rope and wiring houses is not the same as what we have put in on heavy industrial/heavy construction. If you haven't put the time in on these job's you don't deserve to command the wage. As this is what the union is all about... Doing what a JayDub says for years and years until you GRADUATE and pass your exam. I could have studied up and slighted the system but in a field of union guys what you are doing is viewed as the easy way out and then to demand our wage when we put up with: the bull****, the cold weather, the jobs prevailing wage non-union didn't want to do, the jobs that non-union couldn't get bonded for and IBEW JW A's got hurt at, and jobs that were just over your head don't EVER... Don't you EVER get mad at us for the IO forcing locals to institute these CE/CE programs this wasn't the choice of the rank and file this was the choice of the IO which the IO has NO, not one field electrician. Don't get mad at us for making a stand on jobs to get you gone when our rank and file have to deal with this. Please don't hold us accountable.. go file an app at the hall and get accepted like I did... I knew NO ONE.. I got accepted because I passed the test and had a good interview don't say... Oh your IO did it, don't hate us... It wasn't our option it was our IO MAKING LOCALS CONFORM OR RISK THE IO COMING DOWN AND TAKING CONTROL. So this is my statement to you.. don't get pissed when divide and conquer is in full effect and we are pissed and we buck... don't get pissed at us local hand get pissed at the IO that put YOU in that position and to help our plight file in and if you can't hack the app and get accepted don't take the easy road take the high road which is to pay your dues... lock up every night.. take a jw's criticism with professionalism... fight the right to work fu*k even if you can't get in because what if you don't... do you want that opportunity their for your children and maybe you some day if you make it in or just break all the things we have worked for so hard all because you need to eat... If so this isn't where you belong eat elsewhere eat where you been eating don't try to eat our food. This is our legacy and don't degrade it because it was hard for us to obtain it.









:laughing:


----------



## Sjdobs0518

I am a cw-1A where I live and actually just got let go from a company because I asked questions. I left Time Warner Cable to join my local union and they put me out as a cw-1a. Which I was perfectly ok. I'm a young guy and willing to learn but......I was on a commercial site with a residential journeyman, and I had worked on live electrical, I was told we are not supposed to work on anything hot. When I confronted the company they yelled at me and fired me. I also contacted the hall about the issue and their story changed from your not to work on anything hot, to do only what your comfortable with, plus they had me doing a service call by myself, which after talking to my uncle who is a journeyman told me that I had no business doing that and that if the hall found out I could get black listed from getting into the program. My question is, how do you guys feel about this. I would never want to take away the work from true journeyman, I am in this to learn and at the moment the money is not why i'm doing this, it's to learn how to do things right. Was I in the wrong for speaking up?


----------



## TGGT

Sjdobs0518 said:


> I am a cw-1A where I live and actually just got let go from a company because I asked questions. I left Time Warner Cable to join my local union and they put me out as a cw-1a. Which I was perfectly ok. I'm a young guy and willing to learn but......I was on a commercial site with a residential journeyman, and I had worked on live electrical, I was told we are not supposed to work on anything hot. When I confronted the company they yelled at me and fired me. I also contacted the hall about the issue and their story changed from your not to work on anything hot, to do only what your comfortable with, plus they had me doing a service call by myself, which after talking to my uncle who is a journeyman told me that I had no business doing that and that if the hall found out I could get black listed from getting into the program. My question is, how do you guys feel about this. I would never want to take away the work from true journeyman, I am in this to learn and at the moment the money is not why i'm doing this, it's to learn how to do things right. Was I in the wrong for speaking up?


Wrong? Of course not. But that doesn't matter because you're a subclass citizen as far as the hall and the contractor is concerned. Sad but true.

The hall (and its members) don't like you because you're taking a job that someone on the books could have. The contractor can abuse you because they know the hall won't go far to back you up. The IBEW in some places has become a glorified employment agency.


----------



## Sjdobs0518

This is what has me concerned, I want to become an indentured apprentice, but I was just out looking for some experience before I take the test, and I get taken advantage of. I really want to become an electrician and become a journeyman and do things right, but I will not just do what i'm told while being a cw. I have enough common sense when I know something is not right or not safe. So I did make the right choice in telling this company to send me back to the hall.


----------



## Celtic

Sjdobs0518 said:


> When I confronted the company they yelled at me and fired me.





Sjdobs0518 said:


> So I did make the right choice in telling this company to send me back to the hall.



Did you get fired or did you quit...


----------



## Sjdobs0518

They day they yelled at me and fired i went back to the hall, when they learned that i informed the hall of what happened they tried to keep me out, but I already went back to the hall.


----------



## Spunk#7

Welcome to the IBEW version of "As the World Turns". Is Ed Hill ever going to respond to these posts ?


----------



## owl

Sjdobs0518 said:


> I am a cw-1A where I live and actually just got let go from a company because I asked questions. I left Time Warner Cable to join my local union and they put me out as a cw-1a. Which I was perfectly ok. I'm a young guy and willing to learn but......I was on a commercial site with a residential journeyman, and I had worked on live electrical, I was told we are not supposed to work on anything hot. When I confronted the company they yelled at me and fired me. I also contacted the hall about the issue and their story changed from your not to work on anything hot, to do only what your comfortable with, plus they had me doing a service call by myself, which after talking to my uncle who is a journeyman told me that I had no business doing that and that if the hall found out I could get black listed from getting into the program. My question is, how do you guys feel about this. I would never want to take away the work from true journeyman, I am in this to learn and at the moment the money is not why i'm doing this, it's to learn how to do things right. Was I in the wrong for speaking up?


I'm not sure I understand you clearly. The IBEW is unambiguous on this stuff. Apprentices (or, as pertains to you, any non-journeyman workers) are not to work live, ever. A journeyman only works live if the situation is appropriately assessed, and it is determined that live work is necessary (measuring current, for instance), or a shutdown is determined to pose more risks than live work (I can't think of a situation in which this would be true - I'd like to hear others' thoughts).

Any live work over 50 volts requires everyone involved to follow a certain protocol (workers are provided with appropriate PPE, etc). The IBEW and signatory contractors have very clear policies on this. All workers and employers are responsible for knowing and following the policies. Some people may foolishly break the rules, but the person who is ultimately responsible for your safety is you.


----------



## James2rown

btw the shop that i have been working for does only commercial and industrial work no residential


----------

