# Stumped on this Service Call



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

No, this isn't a "Solve This Service Call", since this one has me baffled.

Went on a call yesterday for a tripping breaker in a house. Fluke 33 read 2.86 amps max, and it was tripping within 2 seconds of turning on. I swapped the breaker out (Siemens 20a), and it held for at least 45 minutes, with 2.23 amps maximum.

"Bad breaker, ma'am. Cash or check?" I wished they were all this easy.





Customer calls late last night, saying the breaker tripped again.

So I head there this morning.... breaker is still in tripped position. I pull the cover off and hook up my Fluke 289 this time. Start recording, then start hunting down what's on the circuit.

The NM comes out of the panel (in a garage) into the basement. Right inside the basement, it splits into 2 runs (yes, there's a box!). One run goes up into the living room, and serves only one duplex for the TV/VCR/DVR. That whole combo pulls 1.2 amps when running.

Other NM goes into a sunroom that was added years ago. 3 receps, two switches, 1 ceiling fan. I pull all the devices and the fan and don't see any nicked wires or grounds too close to hot screws. Nothing that even remotely resembles a problem. One switch in the sunroom turn on the fan light (the fan is on the pullchain), the other switch feeds a post light in the back yard, but turning it on didn't do anything. 


After an hour and a half of rooting around this hoarders' house (not packed to the rafters, but the floor is there somewhere), I finally gave up. Told the HO to see what happens.



I shut off the meter, saved the data, and here's what it looks like:










The spike on the left is when I checked the amp reading on the main line coming into the house, just to make sure it was reading amperage correctly... then I clamped onto the branch circuit where the highest peak after that is about 2.5 amps.

Other than the possibility of a buried box, I exhausted my storehouse of experience on this one. I'll admit.... this one got me.​


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

What type of wiring system..BX..Romex..? 

Did you check the splices in the box..?

Do they have any space heaters that they may be using?

The run going to the post light is that UF cable going out there??


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> What type of wiring system..BX..Romex..?


All NM.



HARRY304E said:


> Did you check the splices in the box..?


Yes.



HARRY304E said:


> Do they have any space heaters that they may be using?


None.



HARRY304E said:


> The run going to the post light is that UF cable going out there??


I thought of that, but it wasn't turned on when the breaker tripped yesterday. No one was home. Turning it on only caused the amp draw on the circuit to go up a little.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Unplug the TV, VCR, DVD stuff and see if it still happens.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

It could be a rodent chewing on the wire and causing a short circuit..


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok i see that it nm cable .. and its a hoarders' house 

Did you have a clear veiw of all the recptacals?

Maybe the wire that leeds to the pole light has an out door recptacle on it.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Unplug the TV, VCR, DVD stuff and see if it still happens.



It was plugged into an extension cord run in from the dining room for most of the time I was there. The last 20 minutes of the recording is the electronics running when I plugged them back into the recep behind the TV.

It that stuff's the problem, then it should trip the dining room circuit as well.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Ok i see that it nm cable .. and its a hoarders' house
> 
> Did you have a clear veiw of all the recptacals?


yes, if I spend 10 minutes clearing the stuff away. I pulled them all out and checked for nicked wires / grounds curled up towards hot screws....



HARRY304E said:


> Maybe the wire that leeds to the pole light has an out door recptacle on it.


I turned it on, and that didn't cause it to trip. I never did get the new breaker to trip.


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

This sounds like a buried wire, with a bad spot that causes an intermittent short.

Look again for any other buried wires (shed, or even _under_ that sunroom) ...

I've seen room additions with the wires laying on the ground underneath.


----------



## Jbird66 (Oct 26, 2010)

I have seen some sun rooms that the wiring is under the decks. There could be rodent damage under there. I also had a romex that was shorting out due to a romex connector to tight where it exited the panel and it was hard to finally catch. 

If its a metal roofed sun room the wire in the roof would be really suspect to me also.

One other thing maybe off the wall are the opposing breakers in the panel getting hot and causing a thermal trip?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

What about that ceiling fan motor maybe that is getting old..


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Water condensing above fan and dripping down into fan switch?

Happened to me and the fan also had a remote. Came home to one fan slowly spinning. Each drip caused it to start on low speed and then cycle off. 
Turned wall switch off and found just a small trace of water in fan housing. 
But this was after several trips of the breaker over a few weeks.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

The old breaker was worn out. Could you disconnect the two runs at the first basement box and see which one is running the 2.23A?


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

I've run into that before and it was always moisture or a rodent chewing. Are your temps. getting above freezing where you are and could that be causing condensation? I've had water getting under windows on a sunporch and getting into recepts. also.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

So, with all the known loads disconnected, what did the ohm meter and megger say?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> So, with all the known loads disconnected, what did the ohm meter and megger say?



Unless I know 100% for sure all the loads are disconnected, I don't go that route.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

3xdad said:


> The old breaker was worn out. Could you disconnect the two runs at the first basement box and see which one is running the 2.23A?


After swapping the breaker yesterday, I thought I had the problem solved.... no need to TS any more.

That's the first thing I tried this morning..... divide and conquer. No tripping.

The sunroom has a wood floor, no attic. I can see there being NM underneath it getting wet & going bad. But there's no access under it at all. Nor is there an attic. The whole thing is cheaply made, even plywood walls.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Short*

From what you said. up to 2 sec and intermittent at night, I would have to go with something far out on the circuit (Pole Light) and settling of soil/Animal (noctural chewers). I love and hate those jobs. Process of elimination. I'd disconnect the hot leg to post first for one night in case someones lying to you.

Photocell? 

Is anything on a timer??


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> From what you said. up to 2 sec and intermittent at night, I would have to go with something far out on the circuit (Pole Light) and settling of soil/Animal (noctural chewers). I love and hate those jobs. Process of elimination. I'd disconnect the hot leg to post first for one night in case someones lying to you.
> 
> Photocell?
> 
> Is anything on a timer??


2PM isn't really night.

No photocell or timer that I know of.

Not that I'd call it lying,... I'd call it _Not Really Knowing_.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It wouldn't surprise me if the HO isn't telling the whole story. Perhaps they plugged in a space heater or something else that is causing the problem. Obviously you are talented enough that if you can't figure it out from there we can only guess at the multitude of possibilities. 

Doesn't sound like a short as the readings would be higher. An intermittent short will drive you nuts. I would see what happens then I would split the circuit for a day or so and see if it's ugly face appears. At least that will get you going in the right place.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't do residential work, but I would think the only thing you can do would be to trace the circuit box to box. Pull out every device in every box for inspection and then megger the circuit.

???


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I specifically asked about space heaters this morning.

The sunroom is unheated, and is closed off with the original patio door. I looked around and found no heaters.

I suspect I'll get another call tonight. If so, I'll go back and take the sunroom off the circuit and see if that holds over the weekend. They don't use that room anyway (crap, they _can't_ use that room.... too much stuff!!!)


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I don't do residential work, but I would think the only thing you can do would be to trace the circuit box to box. Pull out every device in every box for inspection



As far as I can tell, I've done that.



hardworkingstiff said:


> and then megger the circuit.
> 
> ???


Without knowing 100% sure I've disconnected all the loads, I don't want to risk burning something up.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> As far as I can tell, I've done that.
> 
> 
> 
> Without knowing 100% sure I've disconnected all the loads, I don't want to risk burning something up.


If you've traced the circuit and pulled every device out, how is it you don't feel confident that you have disconnected all the loads?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If you've traced the circuit and pulled every device out, how is it you don't feel confident that you have disconnected all the loads?


_
Something _is still tripping it.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> _
> Something _is still tripping it.


Exactly, and if all the loads are disconnected, it has to be in the conductors. The only way I would know to find it is to test from box to box. I think I'd start from where the conductor leaves the house and heads to the pole light.

Please don't take offense, but it sounds like you are looking for a reason not to do this. Yes, it's very time consuming and can be a humbling experience (at least some of these type calls have been for me).


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Exactly, and if all the loads are disconnected, it has to be in the conductors. The only way I would know to find it is to test from box to box. I think I'd start from where the conductor leaves the house and heads to the pole light.
> 
> Please don't take offense, but it sounds like you are looking for a reason not to do this. Yes, it's very time consuming and can be a humbling experience (at least some of these type calls have been for me).



No offense taken. I know how to megger out a circuit, and it's not that I don't want to. I'm just looking for other options that I haven't thought of. Options that, given the, uh, shall we say 'environment', would be much quicker. Megging out just what I know exists will take the better part of two days.

I'm not bailing on the job.... I want to find & solve the problem. But after 2½ hours this morning and I end up with nada, it's frustrating to say the least.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No offense taken. I know how to megger out a circuit, and it's not that I don't want to. I'm just looking for other options that I haven't thought of. Options that, given the, uh, shall we say 'environment', would be much quicker. Megging out just what I know exists will take the better part of two days.
> 
> I'm not bailing on the job.... I want to find & solve the problem. But after 2½ hours this morning and I end up with nada, it's frustrating to say the least.


Definitely frustrating. Would checking the underground circuit take very long? I would think that would be the biggest % of chance of having the issue.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Definitely frustrating. Would checking the underground circuit take very long? I would think that would be the biggest % of chance of having the issue.



There's one box in the sunroom ceiling that's a big rat's nest. I looked in there, and (besides being overfilled) only found the wires weren't twisted together. One hot pulled out of the nut when I pushed them back in... I solved that problem in short order.

If the house was 'normal', I wouldn't hesitate to dive in with the 1507. But there's just a goat path through every room. It took me 10 minutes to dig my way to the j-box in the basement.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If the house was 'normal', I wouldn't hesitate to dive in with the 1507. But there's just a goat path through every room. It took me 10 minutes to dig my way to the j-box in the basement.


I don't think I'd go back, just suck up my time and write it off.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Paths*



480sparky said:


> 2PM isn't really night.
> 
> No photocell or timer that I know of.
> 
> Not that I'd call it lying,... I'd call it _Not Really Knowing_.



She called you at night, read it wrong. 

I'd still stop by and eliminate feed to pole light first.

Then, if still pops i'd go back and eliminate the 2 paths it takes from original jbox that you "know" of second. At least you'll know which goat path to follow then. 

There could still be some hidden jbox in a wall. I just had 2 calls in 5 days and found them buried. 

That's why I love and hate these calls. It's hard to justify to lady it will cost here $800 to fix a short. That's why I have a problem still for the folks who say they can flat rate somthing like this. I get these calls all the time and lot's of time it's multiple days like your one eliminating the impossible. 

Get's pricey for customer. 

Let us know, I'm in suspense now.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Got back from a simular one today, dead short on breaker after periodic tripping recently. First I temporarily reversed polarity at panel and breaker stayed on, then reviewed circuit contents, found front pagoda lights, disconnected and restored polarity, breaker stayed on. Ohm tested each light box found a splice out wire with daed hot to ground short. All solved in less than an hour. Spent more time listening to retired detective customer talk about frame up conspiracies.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Path*

Sounds like of 2 paths. It's one going to Sunroom. 

Where does feed seem to go to in Sunroom first??

Since they temped the electronics to another circuit and it didn't pop (for how long?) it must be from main feed in sunroom downstream somewhere.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

My bet is the sunroom, since the TV recep is easy to see (it goes between the joists above a finished portion of the basement, but I can see it down the space when on a ladder).

The sunroom does not have any access under it, no attic, and the walls are finished. If I can narrow it down, I may end up just abandoning a portion of the wiring as I doubt the HO will want to pony up to fix it.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*More*

Sorry, I like this stuff. 

Here's what I would do. 

Run a temp circuit, couple staples and feed one of 2 branches in basement jbox. 

- Since it's intermittent when it pops proceed on that one. 

- I think it's Sunroom run. On day two I would take feed off switch going to post. 

- If pops then start excavating sunroom, if not, wait til warm weather and start diggin (literally) into post light circuit.


----------



## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Could it be a load that's connected to a switch? So it only shorts out when some one turns the switch on. Or maybe a "mechanical time switch" clicks on and short's it out?


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I am thinking that there is a nest of rodents that intermittently chew on the cables. Ask the HO how many times the breaker tripped in the past. Bet it was a lot.

I think the first breaker was worn out from being tripped too much.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Split the circuit in half and see if the breaker holds. If it doesn't, work your way back from the middle of the circuit to the panel. If it does, work your way from the middle to the end of the circuit.

I'll bet it has something to do with the buried wire.


----------



## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

JohnR said:


> I am thinking that there is a nest of rodents that intermittently chew on the cables. Ask the HO how many times the breaker tripped in the past. Bet it was a lot.
> 
> I think the first breaker was worn out from being tripped too much.


That's what I would suspect also and we all know it can be almost impossible to pinpoint.


----------



## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

On a side note, do you guys bill for all of your hours if you fail to solve the problem?

I'm talking if your there for several hours or all day and walk away with your tail between your legs.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

jza said:


> I'll bet it has something to do with the buried wire.


That would be my 1st guess too.


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Had something similar a year back, no other previous electrician he had in could figure it out. I tried for about 20 minutes scratching my head and then ran out to my truck to grab my lan tracker as a last resort. I took off the last device and it tracked through. Then I switched the leads and found it stopped at the panel in the connector- bang it was a broken wire in the over tightened L-16. It would only short out at night as well when the cooler temperatures came.


480, check the connector- just as a suggestion. I chalk it up to luck finding it in my case but offer it as a suggestion.

Mod


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Just had a thought, does this house have ice dams on the roof?
The water could be melting, and later when it finally trickles down, shorts the wiring. You did say you were having a lot more snow than normal. (like who isn't)


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Just had a thought, does this house have ice dams on the roof?
> The water could be melting, and later when it finally trickles down, shorts the wiring. You did say you were having a lot more snow than normal. (like who isn't)



None of the boxes I were in had any moisture in them. Cobwebs & dust, yes.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Trips only at night or any time of the day?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> Trips only at night or any time of the day?



The HO just says "it trips". It tripped yesterday at around 2PM.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe I should have said does it trip roughly the same time of day or randomly. I agree 2pm is not night time. I'm a little slow. I guess I am going for take out the bulbs, turn off the fan, and try the megger.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> Maybe I should have said does it trip roughly the same time of day or randomly. I agree 2pm is not night time. I'm a little slow. I guess I am going for take out the bulbs, turn off the fan, and try the megger.


No idea if it's a regular occurance.

But both switches in the sunroom were off when I started, and turning them on only increased the amp draw a bit.... not enough to trip the breaker.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I've had a few intermittent breaker tripping calls that I haven't wanted to use a megger on because I didn't know what all might have been connected to the circuit.

I have a couple of in-line fuse holders on my van that I employ on occasion. If there's a J-box where the circuit splits I stick a fuse in each run. That way I can leave the whole circuit on until the intermittent problem occurs.... somewhat less disruptive than leaving a portion of the circuit disconnected entirely. Just have to coordinate the trip curves to make sure the fuse blows before the breaker trips.

If the fuses hold but the breaker trips then it's probably somewhere between the breaker and the fuses. If one of the fuses blows then I move one of the fuseholders upstream somewhere and do it again.

Of course a megger's really the way to go :thumbup: And it sounds like the occupants of your trouble call house probably don't give a s**t about the stuff they have plugged in.


----------



## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

Since you have your own recorder put it on the circuit. for 24hrs to SEE what is happening and when. Since it tripped at 2:00pm it could be a bad staple or damage to a conductor in a wall that gets sunlight. The afternoon heating could be causing the wire to MOVE and contact a staple or have a L-N L-G fault.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I just did another service on a gutted flip, noticed romex in wall burned at all three conductors from moisture, I bet you have the same situation. Any wet walls there? I would try to reverse the polarity and turn on with amprobe at different points to locate where it could be.


----------



## sparks701 (Feb 9, 2011)

Had almost the same thing last week, it turned out to be the light bulb in the coach light was not all the way in and water from the roof was getting under bulb and shorting out periodicly. Worth a look if there are any outside lights.


----------



## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

my guess, some one drove a staple too hard,or put a nail or screw thru the wire ,or pulled an asshole in the romex.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Your sure they're not sharing a neuch, no tie on the breaker, open neuch, 220 through the fart fan, or other load? Lift the neuch at the panel and see if you have voltage to ground.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Your sure they're not sharing a neuch, no tie on the breaker, open neuch, 220 through the fart fan, or other load? Lift the neuch at the panel and see if you have voltage to ground.



Siemens 1-pole breaker.


----------



## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Sounds like you need a real electrician to come up there and look at this, in June, whats for dinner?


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Sounds like you need a real electrician to come up there and look at this, in June, whats for dinner?


Ouch. :laughing:


----------



## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

Find out what the homeowner was doing at the time the breaker tripped and where they were in the house. 

I had one like this in a house someone was moving into and periodically tripping a breaker. When things got put away enough I had access to all the receptacles and switches on the circuit the problem went away - untill someone moved a few boxes up the steps from the garage into the house and bounced the hand truck up the steps. The breaker tripped when they hit the main floor. The adjacent light switch had a ground positioned close enough to bounce into one of the switch terminals and showed the evidence of arcing.

Had another where the old man was a bit heavier than mama and had pretty much the same issue - the breaker tripped when he walked on a certain spot - made the ground bounce just enough. I had to get almost nasty to get these folks to go through the notions that caused the breaker to trip. I did get a look of amazement when we got repeatability though.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Siemens 1-pole breaker.


Ah, yes grasshopper, but if someone picked up the wrong neuch with the opposite pole, that neuch opens, 220 through whats plugged in. You said the sun room was an add, did a "certified" electrician do the "romex in the dirt" install too? I've seen where joe HO add's a switch, and just grabbed the closest neutch, didn't matter if it put the load on opposite poles, as long as the neutch didn't open.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Sounds like you need a real electrician to come up there and look at this, in June, whats for dinner?



Is Al coming?


----------



## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Tell the HO that he/she can either spend $80.00 per hr. on a wild goose chase, or have them unplug every piece of electonic equipment that they wish not to be destroyed. Have them sign a waiver, then meg. 

You may fry a few bulbs and a gfci or two, but so fuuuuuuquing what.


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

id megger it too. one fix that will work is total rewire of the circuit but i know in a hoarders house thats a bitch to do. i would tell them i would do a test, have them sign the waiver and do it im sure the megger will find something. it does sound like a short circuit somewhere. its been a while since i used my megger so im jealous of you


----------



## calboy (Feb 13, 2011)

I am a bit late on this one and new to this forum. in my years of being in a service and maintenance company I have seen all kinds of weird tripping issues. I read that this particular house is one of a hoarders house, well animal rodents and even ants are usually found in such homes. I have ran across a similar situation where you scratch your head and wonder why their is an intermittent issue with tripping until I found that "Ant's" were getting into the socket and tripping the circuit thought the hot leg.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I've had these problems, The worse is when it corrects itself, you fix it by accident and have no real explanation for the HO.
Just a bill for a few hundred $


----------



## bereawouldworker (Dec 10, 2010)

so what'd you find 480?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bereawouldworker said:


> so what'd you find 480?



Dang... forgot about this thread.

Finally found the sunroom had been fed with NM cable that was damaged somewhere between the basement and the first recep in the sunroom.

I cut it off in the basement, installed a box, ran some new UF to the same recep box, and abandoned the old NM. It was sleeved in some steel flex, so maybe somewhere under the ground it got damaged. I fixed it two weeks ago, and so far the HO hasn't called.


Maybe she can't find her phone!


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Dang... forgot about this thread.
> 
> Finally found the sunroom had been fed with NM cable that was damaged somewhere between the basement and the first recep in the sunroom.
> 
> I cut it off in the basement, installed a box, ran some new UF to the same recep box, and abandoned the old NM. It was sleeved in some steel flex, so maybe somewhere under the ground it got damaged. I fixed it two weeks ago, and so far the HO hasn't called.


Thanks for sharing. What methodology did you use to narrow the circuit down? Start in middle and keep halving or ....?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Thanks for sharing. What methodology did you use to narrow the circuit down? Start in middle and keep halving or ....?


Yep. Divide and conquer. I took the circuit apart at the first recep, and it still had a short in it.


----------



## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

hi all,
i found this site yesterday looking for where to buy a pentagon socket and browsed a bit while i was here.
curiously enough, at the shop today one of the shacker pm's explained a similar issue from a service call on the last job i did (it was a huge shack job, we did all the service work). issue was, tripping breaker, unknown cause. their method of finding the issue is, unplug everything, test, then plug things in one at a time and turn them on until they (hopefully) find the issue.
in one room there was a tv plugged into a cable box plugged into the wall.
when they turned on the cable box it tripped the circuit. they took the tv and cable box, plugged them into the wall directly, and the problem was solved. apparently there was some issue with the power feeding through the cable box.
hope this help you.

Smoke


----------

