# Why AFCI/GFCI



## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Ya Think :whistling2:


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Slop work. That electrician deserves every AFCI headache there is. 

Those staples should be outlawed also.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Fredman said:


> .........Those staples should be outlawed also.


If you outlaw everything that can be installed incorrectly, you'd have nothing left.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I use them same staples without any problems. It comes down paying attention to what you are doing and not doing crappy work.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*afci/gfci*



jwjrw said:


> I use them same staples without any problems. It comes down paying attention to what you are doing and not doing crappy work.


 Join date; Jan.2010 Boy you new guys come out swinging. Welcome to the RING.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Join date; Jan.2010 Boy you new guys come out swinging. Welcome to the RING.


I've been a member at MH since 2007. I work for my dad and that sorta stuff dont fly with him.:thumbsup:
I'm a journeyman but still have alot to learn. I'm much better at knowing how something needs to be done if I can see it. These forums are a big help in learning the code.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Fredman said:


> Those staples should be outlawed also.


 These staples dont need outlawed, The HACK on the hammer should! :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I doubt there is a problem with this, and I'll tell you why. I did an experiment once where I took some NM scrap and an uninsulated staple and drove it almost halfway through the cable, then took the staple out and stripped the cable. The inner conductors where bent but the insulation was not damaged much to my surprise. 

I am NOT saying this is good workmanship. It is not. But, NM cable is a lot more tolerant to this than we might realize. Even so, even I would call this "hack" work. :blink:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I doubt there is a problem with this, and I'll tell you why. I did an experiment once where I took some NM scrap and an uninsulated staple and drove it almost halfway through the cable, then took the staple out and stripped the cable. The inner conductors where bent but the insulation was not damaged much to my surprise.
> 
> I am NOT saying this is good workmanship. It is not. But, NM cable is a lot more tolerant to this than we might realize. Even so, even I would call this "hack" work. :blink:


I agree that I have seen much worse and still not tripping a gfi or an afci.
And I agree its hack work.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Ive seen these type actually arc into over time. The insulation does thin out into a u shape sometimes. Will not pass my inspection!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Ive seen these type actually arc into over time. The insulation does thin out into a u shape sometimes. Will not pass my inspection!


 
Keep in mind we are friends but I could argue that the outer covering is not broken, the breaker is not tripping ,and the the cable is secured so what article would you cite?


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes keep in mind We are Friends
334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m​(41/2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box,
junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be
stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by
raceway shall not be required to be secured within the​raceway.
junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be
stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by
raceway shall not be required to be secured within the​raceway.

And you thought I was going to use!

​​110.12 Execution of Work. Electrical equipment​
shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.


If you notice the outer sheath is stressed. Stressed = Damaged!:thumbsup:​​​​​


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Yes keep in mind We are Friends
> 334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
> cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
> straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
> ...


 
Well the problem as I could argue and I'm saying its right but the staples havent damaged the cables because the outer covering is intact and not tripping breaker. And you are inspecting now not later. As for the neat manner that could be neat for him......


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Well the problem as I could argue and I'm saying its right but the staples havent damaged the cables because the outer covering is intact and not tripping breaker. And you are inspecting now not later. As for the neat manner that could be neat for him......


I meant im not saying its right


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I meant im not saying its right


 Its damaged now. And yes hes a bull in a china shop. However AFCI's ive heard are for later when nm is at the end of its life span too. So does that mean they shouldnt be required?

You know 
The authority having jurisdiction for
enforcement of the​​​​_Code _has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of
equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission​
contemplated in a number of the rules.

This one everybody really likes too. :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

codeone said:


> The authority having jurisdiction for​
> 
> enforcement of the
> ​​_Code _has the responsibility for making​
> ...


I hate that one....:no::laughing:​


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Those op pics give me the creeps.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Those op pics give me the creeps.


 How about this one from an insulators gun!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

codeone said:


> Its damaged now.


I see no damage.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> covering is intact and not tripping breaker.


 One other thing jwjrw my friend these circuits are not energized yet, this is rough, will be covered when first energized, do you really want to take the chance? Espically if the inspector finds one you happened to miss.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> One other thing jwjrw my friend these circuits are not energized yet, this is rough, will be covered when first energized, do you really want to take the chance? Espically if the inspector finds one you happened to miss.


Hold on I said assume the breaker is on and is not tripping(like a remodel). I agree the pic where the romex looks like its pinched is a violation. It's the other ones that I say (while its crappy work and Id never do it) arent.
1)the outer covering is not damaged
2)the breaker is holding
3)the romex is secured but could look better
The question is what is damaged? Is it when the outer covering is damaged? The inner? The Ahj does have the power to say its damaged. 
I have agreed all along I think its crappy work. I would have no problem if you wanted a few restapled but I think I would ask for a supervisor to have a look see if it was everywhere and they didnt look like the first pic.

I would never have this problem because I dont do crappy work. Maybe the pics are all a violation however Ive seen lots worse and never heard of anyone failing for it. I have a problem with authority....Just kidding.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Its damaged now. And yes hes a bull in a china shop. However AFCI's ive heard are for later when nm is at the end of its life span too. So does that mean they shouldnt be required?
> 
> You know
> The authority having jurisdiction for​
> ...



Strange I heard afci they went to combo arcs for things like lamps that are plugged into the circuits. And yes when devices get old ond the connections get loose. ​


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Strange I heard afci they went to combo arcs for things like lamps that are plugged into the circuits. And yes when devices get old ond the connections get loose.
> [/left]


 Ah yes and for cheep HD/Lowes/walley world 16 gage extension cords run under throw rugs and such. The purpose for the 6'/12'/2' wall space rules.:thumbup: To try to get rid of these cords!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Ah yes and for cheep HD/Lowes/walley world 16 gage extension cords run under throw rugs and such. The purpose for the 6'/12'/2' wall space rules.:thumbup: To try to get rid of these cords!


Did you see my post b4 the combo arcs?


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Did you see my post b4 the combo arcs?


 Sorry missed it. By the way your doing just fine.:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Sorry missed it. By the way your doing just fine.:thumbsup:


I got kudos from an inspector!!!!!! :laughing:


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I got kudos from an inspector!!!!!! :laughing:


Still need to see your Work! For Final approval Though!:laughing::jester::laughing:
NO FREE RIDES!:laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Still need to see your Work! For Final approval Though!:laughing::jester::laughing:
> NO FREE RIDES!:laughing:


 
Im just a hack trying to get buy hacking stuff up and you inspector types with all your learning come and try to tell me what I gotta do!!!!! If I wanted to be told what to do I'd get married lol......


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

480sparky said:


> If you outlaw everything that can be installed incorrectly, you'd have nothing left.


No kidding?  That is just a general statement. Do you prefer these staples?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Fredman said:


> No kidding?  That is just a general statement. Do you prefer these staples?


I do. Or at least the ones I use(they look like them). If you do quality work they work well and have for many many many years. And they are cheaper than the ones with the guard in them.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I do. Or at least the ones I use(they look like them). If you do quality work they work well and have for many many many years. And they are cheaper than the ones with the guard in them.



I've seen this style over-driven countless times. Hard to believe the cost of some staples would sway you. Going from rock hard dried old construction to new construction soft wood for the new guy would be a challenge. It would be a small price to pay to _help_ insure that the install goes OK.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Fredman said:


> I've seen this style over-driven countless times. Hard to believe the cost of some staples would sway you. Going from rock hard dried old construction to new construction soft wood for the new guy would be a challenge. It would be a small price to pay to _help_ insure that the install goes OK.


I started doing remodels with a mixture of new and old wood some so hard the staples wouldnt go in. I was taught to take the time to make sure you do the job correctly. If your guy is so green he cant install a staple correctly then he needs to be taught how to do it. I've seen the guarded staples installed too tight. Again these staples have been uesd for many years and when someone who takes pride in his work installs them they work just fine. I agree to insure it would be a good idea if you couldnt trust your guys but again I've seen the guarded ones hammered to death to but a person who cares wouldnt hammer either too tight.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> If I wanted to be told what to do I'd get married lol......


 Why do you think inspectors are that way? Most are married!They need to boss somebody!!!!!LOL :laughing::jester::laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Why do you think inspectors are that way? Most are married!They need to boss somebody!!!!!LOL :laughing::jester::laughing:


I always thought the night before they inspect my jobs their wives cut them off and poured out their beer and that was what put them in such a bad mood. I never guessed it was as simple as not wearing the pants at home:whistling2::laughing:


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I always thought the night before they inspect my jobs their wives cut them off and poured out their beer and that was what put them in such a bad mood.


I felt that way once too. I wired a MFG Home one day, the inspector passed the job, the next day I wired the same model around the cornor from the first exactly the same way he failed it. I understand your pain:laughing::jester::laughing:

See jwjrw your getting the hang of this site! LOL :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> I felt that way once too. I wired a MFG Home one day, the inspector passed the job, the next day I wired the same model around the cornor from the first exactly the same way he failed it. I understand your pain:laughing::jester::laughing:
> 
> See jwjrw your getting the hang of this site! LOL :laughing:


I do alot of work in 1 area and this inspector is really a nice guy and have never had any problems with him. This particular gc likes his guys to cut in the outside receps and build a trim ring for it around the box. Well he never had a problem with it but our ahj requires it to be in if not in masonary at a rough. Well this day he had a problem with it soooo I took care of it he passed it. I had asked him on previous jobs if it was ok for the carpenter to do it. He said no problem...... Guess he changed his mind lol:thumbsup: And why the gc didnt want me or his last electrician to cut them in I dont know.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Im just a hack trying to get buy hacking stuff up and you inspector types with all your learning come and try to tell me what I gotta do!!!!! If I wanted to be told what to do I'd get married lol......


I thought this was PeterD's line?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

JoeKP said:


> I thought this was PeterD's line?


Ok the first part is BUT.... I added "you inspectors with ALL your LEARNING!:thumbsup:" Didnt realize I had heard the first part. Stole it innocently enough I'm sure you know electricians are the most honest people and would never steal a great line:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

codeone said:


> You know
> The authority having jurisdiction for
> enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
> interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of
> equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.


90.4 is the last resort of a bad inspector.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> 90.4 is the last resort of a bad inspector.


I had a kid come inspect a rent a center I did. He looked at the heat started to do some figuring then walked to the panel looked and said my wire and breaker was too small........ I said well I figured it at 208 and Its what I come up with...... He says your EQUIPMENT says 240 can you show me you have 208:laughing:. He wasnt used to doing commercial but was a nice guy and did catch us and the hvac guys on having plastic in the ceiling(plenum) someone wasnt thinking.Not blaming my dad whos been pasing inspections since before I was born:whistling2:.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> 90.4 is the last resort of a bad inspector.


 Problem is the way the codes are written, some are vague,some dont meet every situation. And the way they keep changing. I here the 2011 is going to be worse than the 2008.

Then what about the interior wiring for SE & SER cable. was in the code in 1999 and out in 2002,2005 and back in in 2008. One of the biggest complaints Ive had for this past year!

The real thing is Is It A Life Safety Issue. Why be so hard if you dont have to!:thumbup:


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Some of same job! hack work!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

codeone said:


> Some of same job! hack work!


 
Its one thing to do hack work when no inspector is gonna see it:thumbup:
But how dumb ya gotta be to have that inspected?:laughing:

I know the problem is that know it all inspector with all his fancy learning:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

codeone said:


> How about this one from an insulators gun!


It all rates from garbage material, the a/c,m/c wire I always preferred weighed three times as much and would'nt let a staple or nail easily penetrate it. I still remember the blonde lady statue back in the 80's holding four rolls of 12/2 ac lite, never liked that stuff from day 1.


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## JohnSham (Jan 7, 2010)

*Staples*

You better pinch down them wire real good and tight...they might go somewhere.

John


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Cant say that I have ever seen those before.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> ..........Cant say that I have ever seen those before.


Then you haven't seen the tool used to properly install them.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Voltech said:


> Cant say that I have ever seen those before.


Crimp sleeves. I use them every day.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Whats the benefit of using crimp sleeves? Seems like a green wire nut would be faster and easier...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Whats the benefit of using crimp sleeves? Seems like a green wire nut would be faster and easier...


 
They're a lot cheaper. They also take a lot less space (in³) in a box.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, thanks...never really thought about the space issue, but I can think of certain situations where it would be an advantage...


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