# Arc Flash protection for Residential Panels?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I..... can't stop laughing.. somebody help me.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Technically, if that guy is an employee, there's no real exceptions in the law (the model code) that permit energized inspections.

The answer to your question, I'd like to only say this... don't assume you're category 0. You probably are, but that's just an assumption. The transformer could be sitting right outside that garage wall for all we know. I'll also add that, while you may be a nice guy, I really don't like home inspectors. I think there's a special place in eternity reserved for you guys.

The guy in the picture is working as safe as he knows how, but it's also partly marketing, I should think. "sell the sizzle, not the steak", as the expression goes. The arc flash gear is part of the sizzle... the dog and pony show that we call a home inspection.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I should wait for more responses, but that was my response as well. 

I think he does a disservice to us, and makes us look silly to the electrical professionals (such as the people on this forum).

I don't know what region he is in, are their regions where this is required?

I post to this forum, and get flamed routinely, because I want to learn. Most Home Inspections electrical classes are really really basic. Don't touch the shiny parts, small wire on big breaker bad. Scorch marks bad. 

So please expand on your comments as to why having the transformer right outside the garage would change your behavior. 

I have seen a house with 5x 200A Panels feed from a trough, and their own transformer. I have heard of houses with 3-phase and 1,000A disconects (those are NOT catagory 0) 

But what do YOU do and what affects your decisions?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Isn't that dude Canadian  ?


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Again, I say I have NEVER in 40+ years seen an electrician working on a residential panel suit up. Safety glasses often, long sleeve cotton shirts, yup. Gloves, sometime Nitril or standard work gloves. Flash shield, Linemans gloves and a Flash bib, NEVER. Even when the local utility lineman are working on a transformer, then they use the gloves...but face shield, and bib, never seen them, ever...


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

On the line side of the main you essentially have zero protection from an arc flash perspective, the fuse on the pole won't clear from an arc flash for a long time so there is going to be a larger arc flash hazard there than HRC 0 PPE would protect you from.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> I should wait for more responses, but that was my response as well.
> 
> I think he does a disservice to us, and makes us look silly to the electrical professionals (such as the people on this forum).
> 
> ...


It's the guy's own decision if he wants to suit up even if it's not required. It's not a disservice. That's like saying we do a disservice if we do work beyond minimum code. Ridiculous. Maybe the guy is confused about the regulations (just like you) and decided to suit up to be on the safe side. I, for one, will not condemn him.

Your concern is the quality of work. What he wears is irrelevant. He could have wired it in a gorilla costume. It just doesn't matter. Let us decide on the PPE.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

He is from Canada but is writing in/for an American organization. Is that required in Canada?

Someone mentioned "Model Code for energized inspections" how does that fit and what do you guys do and what affects your choices?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> Again, I say I have NEVER in 40+ years seen an electrician working on a residential panel suit up. Safety glasses often, long sleeve cotton shirts, yup. Gloves, sometime Nitril or standard work gloves. Flash shield, Linemans gloves and a Flash bib, NEVER. Even when the local utility lineman are working on a transformer, then they use the gloves...but face shield, and bib, never seen them, ever...


I have a neighbor, in his early 90's, who used to race Indian motorcycles. You know what the brake was on those old race bikes? He showed me. It was a steel motorcycle boot you wore on your one foot. Nobody used brakes on their race bikes back then. 

Just because you have not witnessed the proper PPE being used doesn't mean that it's somehow okay to forgo the proper PPE. I'd submit to you that, if OSHA rules apply to any home inspector (employees), then it is flatly illegal for you to inspect the interior of any energized panel. Energized being the important word there. It will add another level of complexity to your work to actually inspect a panel compliantly.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Condemn him no, but in the picture shown, without knowing any more about what's on the other side of the wall, he makes us look, uhm, silly.

I understand the risks on the LINE-Side of mains, they are all-but unprotected, may be feeding MANY houses and much more...

I come back to: what do you do, when and why? Has anyone ever suited up like the photo and why did you?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> Condemn him no, but in the picture shown, without knowing any more about what's on the other side of the wall, he makes us look, uhm, silly.


He'd look even sillier with his face burned off. 



Bob Sisson said:


> I understand the risks on the LINE-Side of mains, they are all-but unprotected, may be feeding MANY houses and much more...
> 
> I come back to: what do you do, when and why? Has anyone ever suited up like the photo and why did you?


Yes, when it's legally required. Such as the photo you posted, no doubt. 

Bob, spend a couple tax deductible dollars and get an NFPA 70e. Then read it. No home inspector accreditation certificate mill or home inspector forum site will ever tell you how to legally and compliantly remove the cover of a panel and inspect the interior. There were a couple guys that tried to convey this information some years back to a couple of your major trade associations and were banned from their membership.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

How does he make a home inspector look silly? Like I said, you inspect and leave the PPE up to us.

Looking silly is the LAST consideration when choosing PPE.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

99cents said:


> How does he make a home inspector look silly? Like I said, you inspect and leave the PPE up to us.
> 
> Looking silly is the LAST consideration when choosing PPE.


I think he's saying the guy in the picture is a home inspector. I'd say that PPE is doubly important if you're inspecting. When you're inspecting, you're actually actively looking for trouble. What happens when you find a certain type of trouble that goes boom? Bob might have the mistaken impression that, as long as you don't touch an energized part, you're safe. MOST of the time, it's not an arc flash from any energized part you touched. You interacted with a non energized part that set off a little domino effect.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> I think he's saying the guy in the picture is a home inspector. I'd say that PPE is doubly important if you're inspecting. When you're inspecting, you're actually actively looking for trouble. What happens when you find a certain type of trouble that goes boom? Bob might have the mistaken impression that, as long as you don't touch an energized part, you're safe. MOST of the time, it's not an arc flash from any energized part you touched. You interacted with a non energized part that set off a little domino effect.


Okay, now I get it. My point is still valid. If the guy wants to suit up, that's up to him. Our CSA Z462 and your NFPA70E are complicated documents. Maybe the guy just wanted to make sure he was following the rules.

If he is telling other home inspectors that it's mandatory, that's something else. But not suiting up because it looks silly? :no:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

I have been known to throw on gloves, shield and jacket to install a meter on a residence.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I am the first to say "NO WAY" to inspecting some panels where I can't get far enough away from them, I can't see what I am doing, I have to sit on the washing machine, or lots of other reasons...

As a member of NFPA I can read 70E online, and it made for some interesting reading.

It will give me more documentable reasons to say "No Way" to inspecting some panels... and reasons to possible consider suiting up for others.

Clear Spaces, Working Distances, Flammable materials, lack of illumination, and so on...

( I have seen Gas meters under, over, next to PanelBoards, along with Water lines, sprinkler heads, and much more, and the AHJ always says there all fine...)

Panelboards rated 240V and below, seem to be Arc-Flash category of 1. 
The Arc-Flash boundary distance seems to be 18-19in. 
Table 130.7(C)(15)(A)(b)

Also, there seems to be some exemptions for "General Housekeeping non-electrical tasks and approach boundary not being crossed.

Since what we do is take the cover off, look without touching ANYTHING, and then put the cover back on, what rules apply is not clear... The restricted Approach Boundry for 100V to 300V seems to be "Avoid contact" 

That all said, read and re-read...I can see that could be justification for Arc-Flash protection. 

I go back to my original question.

* What do you do and why (and when)?*

I doubt that any of the electricians I have ever met were wearing Arc-Flash rated shirts/jacket. Natural fiber long sleeve yes, Arc-Flash I doubt it. Safety Glasses, common sense. Hadn't thought about hearing protection. Gloves I will have to re-consider the risks/protection of Heavy Nitril vs Leather again...

You CAN work/inspect energized panels if you follow the work permit flow chart. Again, since we are not doing any -work- in the panelboard, what is required? Since we have a contract, is a "Energized Electrical Work Permit" required, and who would we submit it to...the buyer or the seller? 

I may ask NFPA for an interpretation as to how section 70E would apply to Home Inspectors. If I get a response I will post it here.

I should not have said "Silly" bad choice of words. How about serious excess ?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I need to dig up a picture of a 100a panel blowup from when a HI put the cover back on, bumped a breaker that had already burned up the bus under it, and sent the whole panel into a black molten tailspin.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I..... can't stop laughing.. somebody help me.


Im sure hes an Internachi member :laughing::laughing::jester:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Technically, if that guy is an employee, there's no real exceptions in the law (the model code) that permit energized inspections.
> 
> The answer to your question, I'd like to only say this... don't assume you're category 0. You probably are, but that's just an assumption. The transformer could be sitting right outside that garage wall for all we know. I'll also add that, while you may be a nice guy, I really don't like home inspectors. I think there's a special place in eternity reserved for you guys.
> 
> The guy in the picture is working as safe as he knows how, but it's also partly marketing, I should think. "sell the sizzle, not the steak", as the expression goes. The arc flash gear is part of the sizzle... the dog and pony show that we call a home inspection.


 
I think they should be allowed on here as long as they are willing to learn, and I applaud Mr. Sisson for doing so. 

I don't blame you though, they aren't properly trained by the system, and when electricians go onto home inspection forums to guide them, the HIs end up harassing the sparkies. Common theme for me was when I kept telling them an AC unit can legally have #12 fused at 30amps, only to be chastised and banned for saying that. 

Years ago internahci was today's DIY chatroom. Every reasonable or code based response made by an electrician was met with hostility, so I don't blame you either. I know you (MD) made a great deal of effort to help out only to be spat on.  

Fortunately things are improving with most HIs now being more open minded. 

...................................................

Anyway, to Mr Sisson, to be honest most electricians should kill the power or at least where a none flammable shirt with a mask as the AIC could go over 10,000 amps (though rarely). In truth the risk is small and most do not.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> I post to this forum, and get flamed routinely, because I want to learn. Most Home Inspections electrical classes are really really basic. Don't touch the shiny parts, small wire on big breaker bad. Scorch marks bad.


 
My best advice to you is ignore the negative comments. There are home inspectors who refuse to learn and I have little appreciation for them, however to those that are willing to learn I have much respect for them. 

Don't stop posting here, there are people on ET who are willing to help. 

As for the education HIs get: I agree 100%. Its to basic, doing a dis-service at no fault of their own. It often results in two things:

1. major violations being missed with new HOs moving into a fire trap.

2. None code issues being reported to electricians which forces HIs to loose credibility. 

Personally if I had the power HIs would take much more stricter electrical courses, if not working beside an residential electrician for a few months to better grasp the concepts at hand.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Again, *I say I have NEVER in 40+ years seen an electrician working on a residential panel suit up*. Safety glasses often, long sleeve cotton shirts, yup. Gloves, sometime Nitril or standard work gloves. Flash shield, Linemans gloves and a Flash bib, NEVER. Even when the local utility lineman are working on a transformer, then they use the gloves...but face shield, and bib, never seen them, ever...


_First off_, i really love your posts Bob:thumbsup:, hopefully you'll get your queries answered without much ado.

_2ndly_ , i went to turn on 6000amps that my guys wired. Nothing had been megged. I donned all my gear to meet my poco rep, of similar tenure to yours, who's surprise was similar to your sentiments

3rd, most of us talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Including our manufacturers marketing less isolative goods here, our grounding system allowing for more AIC , the list goes on....

Last but not least, every time one of us fries, a bureaucrat gets his wings here

Cheers!
:thumbup:










~CS~


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

In doing my research while writing responses, I have convinced myself, with some help from you all, that I need to up my protection, a bit.

Not sure about a full flash outfit, but more than I have been doing. 

I also may start saying "No" to more Panels. If I can't get at arms length from the panel, Can't get to the Dead front screws without an offset screwdriver behind the wall, nor am I going to sit on the washer, or open a panel with GE breakers stuffed in a Cutler Hammer CH Panel... Nope, not worth it. If I see enough to make me want a flash suit to begin with, time to call in you guys.

What hurts, is I recently had one of those. They had built a "Closet" around the panel, and the left-hand dead front screws were 2" behind the door frame. (The Panel opens, see... the door works just fine) The electrician berated me for not carrying an offset screwdriver and not seeing the double tap in the panel I couldn't open (safely). I sent him business, not only for the inspection, but for the repairs including the double tap he found, a few miswired GFCI's, several painted to unusable outlets, some open boxes, some reverse polarities, and lots of wire nuts outside the HO installed recessed lights in the attic... and he bad mouths me...

MOST panels I am comfortable with. Panels that worry me are the Exterior rated panels where the dead front is loose and only sitting on tiny indents at the top, where the lugs are. Loose breakers, Zinso's, Bulldog Pushmatics, Federal Pacifics, and Wadsworth's all get passes directly to you guys... And yes I have had Electricians -say- there is nothing wrong with a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc Panel. (they wouldn't put it on their receipt though).

I have seen a Meter Box short out when the SE cable got pulled down by settling (I was driving by) and watched it sputter and spark as I evacuated the house...and the transformer fuse for 6 houses didn't blow until many minutes later... Wow what a light show... 

Upgrade my gloves, not lineman's gloves though, and some other upgrades, and maybe carry a facemask (I like my beard thank you) No sure about the Flash vest... If I am that close to the panel (less than 18") there are other problems (I think for now...)

See, we can learn/change our minds....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> and he bad mouths me...


We're i an ahj, they'd probably pass hat for a hit man Bob.

:whistling2:~CS~:laughing:


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

That flash suit looks fresher than an apprentice's tool pouch...


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I also think you are on the right track Bob. 
The major source of an arc to residential electrician would be line side of the main. Which you would not see with a panel cover on. However removig the cover may in fact be the act that causes the incident. 
The likely hood of this happening is low, however when it does happen. I assure you the propper ppe will pay for itself. 
There is no shame in being safe. 
I think you can get a 13 cal hot suit at grainger for less than 500. The rubber gloves need to be inspected every 6 months


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## cad99 (Feb 19, 2012)

Now eaton will invent the anti arc flash breakers. For 300 a pop. Coming soon to a panel near you. 


Living the dream one nightmare at a time.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

I put my gloves on every time in tie anything into a panel, 120vac or greater. Full suit if I'm throwing a switch or large breaker.

When the trained professional puts on safety equipment it has a tendency to produce a moment of realization for the innocent observers.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> I am a Home Inspector, and in -MY- region I am required by State law to inspect and report on the interior of electrical panels. I know in some areas you must be an electrician to open the panel, but not in mine.
> 
> My question is concerning ARC-FLASH protection. One of our peers suits up before opening residential panels. Full face flash shield, lineman's gloves and flash protection vest.
> 
> ...


That is not correct. To obtain the level O classification the equivalent of an RK5 current limiting fuse must protect the panel. I don't believe that is done in residential.


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## jabantik (Jan 13, 2015)

99cents said:


> Isn't that dude Canadian  ?


Take off, eh


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Question about gloves.

Since I am limited to 120/240v and I don't go near anything higher than that, don't I just need good leather gloves, vs. lineman's gloves with the thick rubber inserts? Or does someone make gloves with good dexterity that are only low-voltage? I realize that my Nitril gloves may give me low-voltage protection, but nothing for Flash/splatter. 

Hum thinking about it, damp/dirty leather is probably worse than nothing for electrical protection... thus the rubber inserts...

Ok... who makes low voltage gloves with good dexterity?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm unsure if 70E addresses gloving down to the _nith_ degree Bob, but yes there is a loss of tactility /peripheral vision /hearing .....

Nomex might be something to consider

~CS~


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

If that picture is from Canada, it looks like he also removed the interior cover over the mains.
I also thought HI's could not open panels up here either?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eddy current said:


> If that picture is from Canada, it looks like he also removed the interior cover over the mains.
> I also thought HI's could not open panels up here either?


Yes, the barrier has been removed, presumably for a visual inspection. Not sure about the other part.

What first gave it away as Canadian was the Tuck Tape  .


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

hello, bob. in my expeirience it has happend that just opening a panel has shorted something. i still dont ppe, but i suggest a tight necked shirt, such as a t-shirt, safety goggles and a hat of some kind. i also do some welding and sparks that fly from an electrical short are very similar(the same?) they fly and they burn!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> Question about gloves.
> 
> Since I am limited to 120/240v and I don't go near anything higher than that, don't I just need good leather gloves, vs. lineman's gloves with the thick rubber inserts? Or does someone make gloves with good dexterity that are only low-voltage? I realize that my Nitril gloves may give me low-voltage protection, but nothing for Flash/splatter.
> 
> ...


Your gloves have to be tested and rated for the voltages you are exposed to, so while a rubber nitril glove may offer some shock protection it is not tested and rated per ASTM D120 so it does not satisfy any OSHA requirement. 

Get some class 00 gloves, they are 500V rated and will offer the best dexterity for the voltages you work on.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If the panel isn't bonded, just touching the cover could get you to 120 volts to that damp concrete floor on a 120/240 volt system. And you havn't even opened a cover yet. 

But to answer your question, no I don't suit up to open the cover. But that's a poor reason for you not to.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm maybe a bit overconfident on working with anything under 277 to ground, but then again, I've developed a taste for molten copper


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

Our new policy we now suit up for any panel we open 120V+ that is live, the guys frowned on it at first but now it's second nature and isn't a big deal. All the old guys will always have an issue with change but the younger guys are always the first to try something new for safety.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

LuckyLuke said:


> Our new policy we now suit up for any panel we open 120V+ that is live,


After the customer sees that he/she will have new respect for the ol electrical stuff.

Electricians in hazmat suits.


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## phil778 (Jun 4, 2015)

Hey Bill I worked for a company in the mid west that required 11 Cal suit every time we opened opened up a panel that was energized and had 50 volts or over. It was a company requirement.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't see a need for voltage protection for the purposes of inspecting the interior of the panel, but I do see a need for arc-flash protection if you remove the cover. Of course this would be based on the incident energy at the panel. It would be rare to find that information posted on the panel for a dwelling unit service.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

"Incident energy at the panel" is something that HI's are not taught anything about. Most know 110-220v, 65A, 100A, 150A, 200A, 400A but few understand that having some #4/0 mains goings to a shared transformer 20' away that may feed 6-10 houses means the POTENTIAL of those mains is HUGE compared to what they are used to, and those mains are sitting there, mostly unprotected.... A large house, or a Multi-family, where the lateral is sized for 5 x 200A or larger... Ouch... 

As I wrote I have seen the light show when a meter box was pulled apart by settling soil, and the Transformer fuse didn't blow for quite some time. 400-600A at 240 makes a good show, but may not blow a fuse designed for 10 big houses... Not sure what fuses are at Transformers these days, but it takes a lot to blow them, MEANWHILE that's why we are talking about arc-flash.

Having a 20A or even a 60A wire come loose while you are opening a dead-front might be 'interesting' it would be nothing like have something fall on the mains. 

Taking the dead front off a 240V-200A panel is not like working on HV switchgear where arcs can be huge, things that shouldn't conduct do, and opening or closing a switch are major events. BUT, having some homeowner double tap on the mains come loose when you are 12" away from the panel in a closet makes me think twice about my opinion on Flash protection.

Question on wording. Opening the Panel vs. Removing the Dead front. Home Owners open the panel, DOOR. Everything is still (supposed to be) shielded/protected I remove the dead front and inspect the interior of the panel box... what do you call removing the dead front?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...
> Question on wording. Opening the Panel vs. Removing the Dead front. Home Owners open the panel, DOOR. Everything is still (supposed to be) shielded/protected I remove the dead front and inspect the interior of the panel box... what do you call removing the dead front?


Opening the door is normal operation and does not require any special PPE.

Removing the cover is not normal operation and requires PPE based on the incident energy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> "Incident energy at the panel" is something that HI's are not taught anything about. Most know 110-220v, 65A, 100A, 150A, 200A, 400A but few understand that having some #4/0 mains goings to a shared transformer 20' away that may feed 6-10 houses means the POTENTIAL of those mains is HUGE compared to what they are used to, and those mains are sitting there, mostly unprotected.... A large house, or a Multi-family, where the lateral is sized for 5 x 200A or larger... Ouch...
> 
> As I wrote I have seen the light show when a meter box was pulled apart by settling soil, and the Transformer fuse didn't blow for quite some time. 400-600A at 240 makes a good show, but may not blow a fuse designed for 10 big houses... Not sure what fuses are at Transformers these days, but it takes a lot to blow them, MEANWHILE that's why we are talking about arc-flash.
> 
> ...


This might help, Bob: We could consider the supply conductors as being unprotected, meaning that they are unfused. The 100/200/400 amp value is the protection given by the main breaker and protects the gear downstream of that breaker.

We deal with "available fault current". For lack of a better explanation, that amount of current is what the utility transformer is capable of delivering during a short circuit. The fact of the matter is that we don't often know what the available fault current is but, even in a house, it could be in the thousands. Your main breaker is built to handle 10KA.

We have no control over the amount of current that is available upstream of the main breaker or disconnect.

When you say that there was 400 or 600 amps at 240V when the meter socket blew, in all likelihood it was much higher than that. 

If in doubt, suit up.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

The problem with the Meter Socket is that it didn't "Blow" but sizzled until it finally got up enough conductivity to blow after 15-20 minutes. Had it been a full short, the fuse would have popped quickly, instead we had a many hundred (thousand?) Amp Arc that was spectacular. Looked and sounded like an arc-welder on "turbo." I have seen a substation breaker "clear" and what a tree limb does to a feeder, but those are higher voltages... 

Any idea what size/delay the fuse is that feeds 8-10 x 200A houses? I know it isn't a straight multiplier...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

You really are asking the right Q's here Bob, go you! :thumbsup:

Proximity to XO should always be a consideration, if not a thumbnail assessment of AIC 

As an EC i can tell you fused service gear takes a lot more AIC for the $ spent

Fused disco's are used in industry to this day for that very reason


~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> The problem with the Meter Socket is that it didn't "Blow" but sizzled until it finally got up enough conductivity to blow after 15-20 minutes. Had it been a full short, the fuse would have popped quickly, instead we had a many hundred (thousand?) Amp Arc that was spectacular. Looked and sounded like an arc-welder on "turbo." I have seen a substation breaker "clear" and what a tree limb does to a feeder, but those are higher voltages...
> 
> Any idea what size/delay the fuse is that feeds 8-10 x 200A houses? I know it isn't a straight multiplier...


Bob, we don't necessarily know what size of fuse is there or even if it exists.

You also have to understand that utility protection is designed to protect their equipment and minimize blackouts (or brownouts). It isn't designed to protect us or the homeowner.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> The problem with the Meter Socket is that it didn't "Blow" but sizzled
> Any idea what size/delay the fuse is that feeds 8-10 x 200A houses? I know it isn't a straight multiplier...


Resi areas in edmonton (underground feeds) epcor runs 3 houses (100 amps and try to get more) on 125 amp fuses in the pedestal.

OH areas in older neighbourhoods well that's a different story. An older house with no main probably the sky is the limit, Good for gro-ops I guess.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> I am a Home Inspector, and in -MY- region I am required by State law to inspect and report on the interior of electrical panels. I know in some areas you must be an electrician to open the panel, but not in mine.
> 
> My question is concerning ARC-FLASH protection. One of our peers suits up before opening residential panels. Full face flash shield, lineman's gloves and flash protection vest.
> 
> ...


What kind of moron would have their hand in a panel and be looking the other way. does that face shield protect you from the back too?

More proof you guys are milking......


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

look closer. his hand isnt in the panel:whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...Had it been a full short, the fuse would have popped quickly, ...


It is somewhat unusual for the utility transformer fuse to clear shorts or other problems on the secondary side of the transformer. These faults are normally cleared when they burn themselves clear. The primary side fuse is not typically sized to protect the transformer or the secondary conductors.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> It is somewhat unusual for the utility transformer fuse to clear shorts or other problems on the secondary side of the transformer. These faults are normally cleared when they burn themselves clear. The primary side fuse is not typically sized to protect the transformer or the secondary conductors.


And as I have said before in asking about fuse sizing for transformers a lineman told we use the WIT method particularly during storms when they are trying to get power back up for 1000's of people. 


WIT - What's in Truck


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> And as I have said before in asking about fuse sizing for transformers a lineman told we use the WIT method particularly during storms when they are trying to get power back up for 1000's of people.
> 
> 
> WIT - What's in Truck


Not only that, but they don't really try to protect the transformer and the secondary conductors. They typically size the fuse to make sure that a fault on the load side of the transformer primary fuse cannot take out an upstream fuse on the distribution system.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I kind of like the idea of a HI suiting up. It might demonstrate to homeowner hacks that electricity is to be respected.

Besides that, this is a low cal setup - Nomex, face shield and gloves. He's not dressed up like a Stormtrooper. Go for it.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok, this weekend I took the opportunity (excuse) to go shopping. Found some nice 14" reasonably deleterious welding gloves. .

Before someone pounces, Category 0/1 calls for non-V-rated Leather gloves, non-V-rated tools, and face shield or goggles along with natural fiber (cotton) clothes. Don't need VOLTAGE protection, but flash/splatter protection, that's why I was looking in WELDING stuff.

I like my eyebrows and beard, so I was looking at face shields rather than Goggles... What about something like: 

http://shop.elvex.com/p/cu-arc-1-complete-arc-flash-kit-10-cal

Again in our low/but not zero risk low voltage usage, why yellow or Green?

Again, trying to find cat. 0/1 stuff is tough. 

Finding 7KV 12cal ballistic stuff was easy.

While I was at it I found some nice FIBERGLASS mini pry bars... Our Panels are often painted/caulked/built into walls and cabinets. Always was concerned about using metal tools to get the panels open... Beyond a box-cutter.\

I am basing my choices on:
130.7(C) (15) (a). Hazard/Risk Category Classifications
Panelboards Rated 240 V and Below
Removal of bolted covers (to expose bare, energized parts) 
Hazard/ Risk Category - 1 V-rated gloves - N V-rated tools - N

Remember what we are supposed to be doing, "Removal of bolted covers (to expose bare, energized parts) ", looking, "Replacing of bolted ...." No Touching! I am interested in being safe but not over the top...

*Sensible* suggestions, Brands, stores, suppliers are welcome....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Relentless pertinaciousness is most endearing here Bob :notworthy:

But you see, it's not us who need to be* sensible*, it's the powers that be who manufacture and/or dictate installs less than isolative

Consider, the man pictured in arc flash could forgo it all for a LOTTO on a meter /main

Resi Meter= $20
Resi Meter/Main=$120


Yes, we're worth less than $100

~CS~


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Forgive me I didn't follow that...

pertinaciousness.... what? thats a serious scrabble worthy word...

LOTTO, Resi Meter/ Resi Meter Main

I am missing a critical piece of information here somewhere....

If you are talking about types of Meter enclosures, we don't do meters, just PanelBoards, and any panelboard -could- flash if some Homeowner/DIY thing decides to fall across the mains as we open it. That's the basis of this whole thread, how much of a risk and the likely magnitude of a flash in a Resi panelboard.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

yeah, c.s. you outdid yourself on that one!:thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

My chickenbrains runneth over, sorry.....

what i meant was a meter/main combo , lotto capable . 

lock out the main panel at the meter/main, no arc flash _anything_ required for de-energized equipment.

Not required by NEC, but it provides a level of safety, particularly given much residential wiring installs out the doesn't know an outlet from an omlet, much less what 70E is

Now if viewed _objectively_, the concept of isolation is employed better elsewhere than here in the N.E.C. . For instance out Canadian brothers protect themselves with what is another barrier over the mains ,inclusive in their panel configurations

Methinks there may be some disco before the metering equipment as well, but it would be better explained by them.

Our Euro counterparts also have levels of protectants we don't, not only in their manufacture, but as i understand it their training/certification as well

THAT becomes the paradox , screaming about safety where safety is a business _(a capitalistic society only having capitalist remedies)_ , focusing on the man in the field *only* w/o consideration of foreign fixes tried and true 

~CS~


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Ah... that is what you were talking about...

Lockout... and de-energized panels.

Sounds like a great idea, but not practical in many (most) situations. 

When I am doing NEW CONSTRUCTION, I often get to see a de-energized panelboards in various stages of completion. Early on when the Panelboard has just been placed there may only be the mains and one utility outlet placed. Later in the process all of the runs may be in place, labeled, and tied to breakers, but the meter hasn't been installed yet, so everything is dead/safe.

If I am doing a "Final Walkthrough" the house is complete and energized. SOME home inspectors will "test" the main breaker and De-Energize the panel below the mains and inspect it that way. Most builders don't allow this as there is a non-zero chance that the main won't re-energize, and then they need to scramble to replace the main before closing. Since it is still the builders house, we have to follow their rules. Note: even operating the Main breaker still leaves the main lugs hot, and exposed in most panels.

The only way to truly make the Panel safe and totally de-energized is to pull the meter, and that belongs to the utility and is sealed with a tag. Pulling the meter is not something that is an option for Home Inspectors.

HOWEVER. The Majority of inspections are for existing, occupied homes. De-energizing the panel or even a portion of the panel (as in a split buss configuration) is also not an option. We are even cautioned about "testing" AFCI circuits in occupied homes as there may be a CPAP machine, an oxygen generator, or a fish tank somewhere and the circuit may not be "restorable".

Even testing GFCIs (which the homeowners are supposed to test every 30 days as if that ever happens) can be problematic. More than once "Testing" a GFCI has found another GFCI upstream in an undetermined location. You expect the device in front of you to trip, and something else seemingly unrelated trips. At least once, the "other" GFCI was behind drywall. They had drywalled over it, and because no-one saw a GFCI, they installed -another- one. Of course that GFCI controls the garage door opener, the bathrooms, the exterior outlets (with the fish pond filter) and more....

But, back to Arc Flash stuff. 

My original question was about ARC Flash risk, potential, and precautions. In this thread, I have learned that the risk is higher than I thought it was, AND that the recommended precautions were not as onerous as I thought they were. NonV-rated gloves, NonV-rated tools, Goggles or a Face Shield, and natural fabric clothing (non-melting). In most Resi instances, the incident energy (did I get that right) is unknown as we don't know what the feeder is, so we need to take precautions.

A Home Inspector's risk is both lower AND higher than the charts portray. We "Removal of bolted covers" but the next active step is replacing the same cover as we don't poke around inside (or shouldn't). That's lower risk. HOWEVER, because we are looking for, and should assume they exist, Home Owner and non-licensed electrician modifications to the panel which can (and have) included double taps of the mains, unprotected wires across the mains, incompatible breakers, contamination of the panels, rust, water, rodents, snakes, not to mention the recalled/obsolete panels such as FPE, Bulldog, Zinsco and many other risks and any of those could instigate a Flash, some small, some large. 

The question is what is required, what makes sense, what is workable, and what is the likely Incident Energy that we would likely face should an "event" happen. If I read 70E correctly, the flash boundary for 240V and lower is around 18" (or 'avoid contact,' I prefer 18") so what has the greatest risk is my hands (long leather gloves do make sense). Non-melting clothing and eye protection.

So... you all have a convert... sort of. I don't think I will suit up as the Canadian inspector did with Insulated lineman's gloves, a 20cal face shield, and a ballistic bib, however, I will wear leather gloves and face protection and non-melting clothing. And I will also likely say "NO" to more panels where I can't get a safe distance away, I can't see, there is no work space, I have to stand on the sump cover, or they want me to sit on the washer....

What I ask when I do kick it to one of you is that you don't come in wearing cargo shorts, a polyester polo, stand on the sump cover while leaning against the washing machine and open the panel with no gloves and say "Paranoid home Inspector, there's nothing wrong with this panel's location...Oh, he should have seen this double tap and the scorched wires...." 

Yeah, I know, totally unrealistic....


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Hahahahaha, no you don't need arc flash gear. You don't need gloves either, you theoretically shouldn't be touching anything anyway, the inspection is visual, right?
Not trying to troll you but the guy who is putting all that gear on is either wasting his own money or the company's. Some people are REALLY scared of electricity (that's why I got into it) and they just can't handle the idea of being around it. If it helps him get up the ball's to open the panel and do his job, great but it's absolutely not necessary. I bet even with all that stuff on his knees are shaking a bit. Hahaha.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Wear some safety glasses, that's the most you need on your face. Seriously man a face sheild is too far and can be more dangerous I'd it fogs up on you or you get sweat in your eyes.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I used to think that way. 
Opening a Panel (removing the dead front, not just opening the door) SHOULD be a non-issue.

HOWEVER. Having seen the stupid stuff people do in panels, I am thinking twice. I am not really worried about the Breaker that goes "Ssszzt" when it moves, or even the wire that comes out because it is loose and goes POW against the panel and trips a breaker......

The drywall screw in the dead front that ALMOST goes through the 50A line to the Range
The 12ga wires from the Cooked Surge Protector under the lugs with the #4/0 mains
The loose Home Owner installed bare GND wire crossing above the Mains
The oversized piece of aluminized foil wall insulation billowing around the panels
The carbonized rodent sitting on the mains

All of those can go "POW" at any time. Sometimes the dead front is still between you and the flash, other times you just put it down and are turning to see what is in there...

The Panels I see go from NEW and nice to I really want my welding gloves and rubber boots just to put the cover back on... 

I have had a few TINY flashes as GFCI's exploded, breakers blew with gusto, and those generally were on 120v limited amperage circuits that generally cleared instantly. 

I really don't want to experience a Main Flash that has some energy behind it. A piece of #6 falling across the mains, maybe from on top of the panel leftover from the cable guy, or just lose in the panel. That would make a nice POW. Or that rats nest of Coax and splitters and stuff hanging just above the panel, bump it and it could swing down and hit something live with a nice POW...

I see the panels that have been in for 50 years, that are in the basement utility closet, behind the furnace, over the washer with every brand imaginable breaker crammed into and the rats nest from the cable/phone guy hanging overhead, spare breakers and who knows what perched on top. Add some rust (where's the moisture), a lag bolt in the cover and that is my nightmare.

Yup, gloves and a shield are starting to look better and better.

Now a Brand new Cuttler Hammer CH panel with all of its inspection stickers, plenty of clearance and no indicators, nothing hanging nearby, that one may just get gloves. (I wear thick polycarbonate glasses already)


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

I was a service and maintenance guy for a while, believe me, I've seen it all too. When I was a 1st level I blew up my side cutters on a 50A 240v 2 pole #6 armoured stove cable. That's about as bad as a residential flash can get and I was fine. Needless to say I always wear my safety specs now, however. In our field safety laws only mandate arc flash gear at 347/600v. Your equivalent voltage would be 277/480v. Also; in Canada 120/240 is still classified as high voltage. Low voltage is 90-80 volts or less. I have seen a hole the size of my fist in the back of a panel before, and it was "only" 120v.
But I digress.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

redseal14yrs said:


> I was a service and maintenance guy for a while, believe me, I've seen it all too. When I was a 1st level I blew up my side cutters on a 50A 240v 2 pole #6 armoured stove cable. That's about as bad as a residential flash can get and I was fine. Needless to say I always wear my safety specs now, however. In our field safety laws only mandate arc flash gear at 347/600v. Your equivalent voltage would be 277/480v. Also; in Canada 120/240 is still classified as high voltage. Low voltage is 90-80 volts or less. I have seen a hole the size of my fist in the back of a panel before, and it was "only" 120v.
> But I digress.


Actually the mains before the main breaker are not fused. Depending on location if you cause a fault on these conductors you could do some damage. 
I respectively disagree with you.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> Ok, this weekend I took the opportunity (excuse) to go shopping. Found some nice 14" reasonably deleterious welding gloves. .
> 
> Before someone pounces, Category 0/1 calls for non-V-rated Leather gloves, non-V-rated tools, and face shield or goggles along with natural fiber (cotton) clothes. Don't need VOLTAGE protection, but flash/splatter protection, that's why I was looking in WELDING stuff.
> 
> ...


 The category you are referring to is only for arc flash protection, shock protection (V-Rated gloves) is required when you cross the RAB of exposed live parts per NFPA 70E/Z462


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> If I am doing a "Final Walkthrough" the house is complete and energized. SOME home inspectors will "test" the main breaker and De-Energize the panel below the mains and inspect it that way. ..


What do you mean they "test" the main breaker? Test how?


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

He probably means dumping the branch loads and turning the main on and off


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Yup throw the big switch....

In a new construction house there is minimal load... the house is EMPTY, a few lights, and that is it. Maybe the AC compressor will be on, so one association member throws the big 200A breaker at the top of the panel. Does his inspection of the Panel and throws (or attempts to) throw it back.

He says a surprising number of them won't re-engage. Most of us think he is a bit over the top, and greatly exceeding the SoP and a few other choice words.

Going back to 70E Table 130.7 (C) (9)(a)
Tasks (assumes Equipment is Energized, and work is Done within the Flash Protection Boundry)

Removal of Bolted covers (to expose bare, energized parts)
Hazzard/ Risk Category - 1
V-rated Gloves - N
V-rated Tools - N

As soon as you do something active inside the panel, such as voltage testing, THEN you need V-rated gloves and tools. There is a note: V-rated gloves are gloves rated and tested to the maximum line-to-line voltage upon which work will be done. Haven't found any 240v gloves though, 5KV yes, 240V not yet...

Voltage or Current testing inside the panel greatly exceeds the SoP for Home Inspectors. We are supposed to Open, Look, Close. No Touching!


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Safety glasses with side shields (you're dumb if you don't wear them)
Insulated work shoes/boots (with the Omega symbol)
Long sleeved cotton shirt (is a very good idea).
Leather gloves (non V rated- look at motorcycle leather gloves, but unless your hand is right in the arc flash zone, all these will save you is a band-aid).
No polyester pants.
Keep your face away from the panel as you put the cover on or off (no peeking). 

And always a good idea, plan for the worst, 
If it goes boom, how do I get out? Is someone else in the danger zone? Where is a class C fire extinguisher. What does my insurance cover. 
And last but not least, a qualified electrician to call if you discover a "widowmaker" in the panel, you may come upon a situation where it maybe unsafe to put the cover back on with the panel in it's current state, and you can't leave an open energized panel unsupervised. 

I came upon a "widowmaker" in a resi panel last month, the main grounding conductor was resting on top of one of the main lines coming in to the panel. As the panel cover was being taken on and off the GC was being pushed back and forth over the one main. When I did my inspection thank goodness I noticed it , you could see where arcing had happened before, the insulation was burnt and you could see small arc damage on the bare copper. One or two more times taking that cover on/off, or jiggling things around in there, and a nice fat grounding conductor would have landed on the main and vaporized in that panel.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Sisson said:


> I used to think that way.
> Opening a Panel (removing the dead front, not just opening the door) SHOULD be a non-issue.
> 
> HOWEVER. Having seen the stupid stuff people do in panels, I am thinking twice. I am not really worried about the Breaker that goes "Ssszzt" when it moves, or even the wire that comes out because it is loose and goes POW against the panel and trips a breaker......
> ...


I like you Bob and have stuck up for you in the past, but now I think you may be in over your head. You should hire a professional to do the electrical portion of your inspections. As should all HI's.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

How ironic that an AHJ, should fall into the *'Good gawd, you can't possibly be thinking of de-energizing us !" * sthick 

You do know that's the biggest *F *story going Bob.....oh the breaker won't reset, the latte machine will loose it's morning time, my wife's deisle dildo will loose it's ignitor :no:_(cue wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth)_

As we really are symbiant sorts , w/o AHJ's there's no need for licensure, so it behooves us to keep you *alive* :whistling2:

_Okaysurefine_..... you want us to do it live? Sign this 70E document and authorization for double time arc flash detail.....:thumbup:

We can work on this......

BTW, my AHJ can disembowel apprentices with his cold icy glare alone!

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I like you Bob and have stuck up for you in the past, but now I think you may be in over your head. You should hire a professional to do the electrical portion of your inspections. As should all HI's.


yeah, so we can waddle in and do it live....:jester:~CS~:laughing:


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

redseal14yrs said:


> I was a service and maintenance guy for a while, believe me, I've seen it all too. When I was a 1st level I blew up my side cutters on a 50A 240v 2 pole #6 armoured stove cable. That's about as bad as a residential flash can get and I was fine. Needless to say I always wear my safety specs now, however. In our field safety laws only mandate arc flash gear at 347/600v. Your equivalent voltage would be 277/480v. *Also; in Canada 120/240 is still classified as high voltage.* Low voltage is 90-80 volts or less. I have seen a hole the size of my fist in the back of a panel before, and it was "only" 120v.
> But I digress.


High voltage is defined as: *High voltage — any voltage exceeding 750 V. *

Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Not trying to be cheeky, but if you truly want to learn, go back to school or sign up for an electrical apprenticeship!  

Become a licensed qualified electrician. Then, and only then, are you qualified to safely inspect electrical panels.

Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Because he'd need to serve _electrical,plumbing,carpentry,cementworker,tileworker,drywaller,painter _apprenticeships as a multi-hat Borgi.....~CS~


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Borgi - not what they teach us in Manitoba, and we have a higher pass rate for the IPHONE than you guys. Can you honestly say then by that definition that 600v is low voltage? Gimme a break dude it'll throw you across a room


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

redseal14yrs said:


> Borgi - not what they teach us in Manitoba, and we have a higher pass rate for the IPHONE than you guys. Can you honestly say then by that definition that 600v is low voltage? Gimme a break dude it'll throw you across a room



Don't worry, when doubt, check the code book!

Section 0

Voltage —
Extra-low voltage — any voltage not exceeding 30 V.
High voltage — any voltage exceeding 750 V.
Low voltage — any voltage exceeding 30 V but not exceeding 750 V.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Yeah I agree that's what it says word for word in the book but let's use common sense here its not really that low.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

And if you ha e a problem with what I said go take it up with Ken Malciewski at the college he's the one who said it. Curtis Braun too


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Borgi said:


> High voltage is defined as: *High voltage — any voltage exceeding 750 V. *
> 
> Borgi


Then what's Medium Voltage?


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

In terms of all voltages available in Manitoba, below 750 IS low.
Here is what is defined as high voltage in Manitoba:

4.8.3 High Voltage 

4.8.3.1 Manitoba Hydro will normally supply the following voltages subject to the 

voltage being available in the locale (Manitoba Hydro must be contacted 

regarding availability): 

• 2400/4160V • 33000V delta 

• 4800/8320V • 66000V delta 

• 7200/12470V • 66000/114300V 

• 14400/24900V • 79700/138000V 

• 12470V delta • 132800/230000V

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

You guys are getting caught up in the semantics. 
High voltage and hazardous voltages are different things. 
The op Bob asked about nessesary ppe for a standard residential electrical panel. 
And the short answer is , its unknown. 
We simply dont know each homes available fault current. 

It would be foolish to equate 120/240 volt electrical services as non hazerdous. 
While i do agree that the risk involved is relatively low. 
You can never say with certainty all electrical panels are protected by the utility primary fusing.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Yeah, if I have it right, the CEC only goes up to 750V so they have their own classifications.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

Let's be clear though, they don't mean literally, they mean comparatively, 750v and up is a big category, and 120v-600 is comparatively low to 25kv. THAT'S what is meant by that. The code book is legalese, not plain language. Sometimes you need to be able to interpret what it is saying


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

NacBooster29 said:


> You guys are getting caught up in the semantics.
> High voltage and hazardous voltages are different things.
> The op Bob asked about nessesary ppe for a standard residential electrical panel.
> And the short answer is , its unknown.
> ...


That's right. And the CEC means that 120-600 are COMPARATIVELY low to 750+. You can't even compare 600 to 660000, use your common sense, 600v is not really that low.


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

I saw single 347v throw a pair of sidecutters across a room, if they had hit anyone they would have had a bad day. That is not "low" power in real terms. In LEGALESE terms yes, because you can have a 125kv so 600 would be pretty low compared to that.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

redseal14yrs said:


> I saw single 347v throw a pair of sidecutters across a room, if they had hit anyone they would have had a bad day. That is not "low" power in real terms. In LEGALESE terms yes, because you can have a 125kv so 600 would be pretty low compared to that.


Interesting. I have never seen flying tools test to define voltage. You should talk to the IEEE. Maybe they could write a White Paper.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> ...
> 
> lock out the main panel at the meter/main, no arc flash _anything_ required for de-energized equipment.
> 
> ...


But you need PPE to *prove* that it is de-energized before you work the equipment


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## Vern (Apr 20, 2017)

Great question and nice to see a home inspector trying to learn about something in the electrical industry...Yes it is law in some parts of North America that you must use proper PPE for arc flash protection and electric shock. People have lost eye sight and even death taking short cuts residential electricians never at any time should or need to work in live panels...turn the power off, work smart. Does not mater the voltage level use protection rated for the potentials.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Vern said:


> Great question and nice to see a home inspector trying to learn about something in the electrical industry...Yes it is law in some parts of North America that you must use proper PPE for arc flash protection and electric shock. People have lost eye sight and even death taking short cuts residential electricians never at any time should or need to work in live panels...turn the power off, work smart. Does not mater the voltage level use protection rated for the potentials.


I don't know any location that proper PPE isn't required.

Welcome aboard by the way there Vern! Enjoy your time here.


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