# Recent Hack Work



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Heres two before and afters from two different jobs. Sorry in advance for the mickey mouse ears, the EC I work for likes it that way. :jester:

The panel "after pics" were before the GECs were landed.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

That coupling on the mast above the last support is about as bad as it gets. Can't say however I'm guilty of that from too way back when.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

thats what you get when you dont have a threader!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> thats what you get when you dont have a threader!


I end up using a 3' piece of EMT on top of the meter with compression connectors and the full length rmc on top . That's an expensive threader.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

what's so bad about MM ears?

~CS~


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> what's so bad about MM ears?
> 
> ~CS~


In the panel? Not a thing if somebody needs some slack later. Kind of throws the electrons off having to go for a loop de loop.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Local supply house here sells 2 1/2"x 12" rmc nipples, often find myself putting one of those ontop of the meter also.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

rdr said:


> In the panel? Not a thing if somebody needs some slack later. Kind of throws the electrons off having to go for a loop de loop.


_it does?_

~CS~


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## Matt (Feb 3, 2008)

Every time I see coupling at top I want to puke.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Why on earth put the short piece above the roof line? Put it above the meter then you have your solid length above the roof for support


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Yeah I think this one could have been a better installation had the coupling been placed on the lower half of the riser. My question is does the POA need to be that high?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> what's so bad about MM ears?
> 
> ~CS~


Completely unnecessary (and weird).


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

and would it need a guy wire ?

~CS~


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

I_get_shocked said:


> thats what you get when you dont have a threader!


That is for sure.:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> and would it need a guy wire ?
> 
> ~CS~


Depends on the poco requirements. 200 amp OH here allows for 4' without one.


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

MM ears are not a big deal, coupling at the top is a big deal.
Not having the proper tools is not a good excuse for doing the job wrong.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't think the pocos here would hook that up without a guy or brace


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

BrianA said:


> MM ears are not a big deal, coupling at the top is a big deal.
> Not having the proper tools is not a good excuse for doing the job wrong.



Its not ideal placement of the coupling, but its not done wrong. The coupling was installed for its intended use and IMO that coupling is not a big deal, just an eye sore.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Couplings above the roof ain't gonna fly 'round these parts. The top 10' must be a full stick.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you've never seen a piece of rigid get pulled out of a coupling ? you are defending the indefensible.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Couplings above the roof ain't gonna fly 'round these parts. The top 10' must be a full stick.


local amendment?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> local amendment?


POCO requirement.

"Conduit couplings are not allowed above the roofline or less than 2 feet below the soffit line."


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I couldn't even ponder the possibility of me or anyone associated with me having that coupling up there. Not having the right tools is not a good enough reason. When I was a one man trunk slammer I took pieces up to the old company i worked for (which is now the new company I work for) and had them thread them for me. It may cost a couple bucks but HD will thread a piece you buy there. If you ever need a 7' or so piece of GRC buy it at home depot and have them cut it and thread your 3' scrap piece. Then save it for this situation.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I couldn't even ponder the possibility of me or anyone associated with me having that coupling up there. Not having the right tools is not a good enough reason. When I was a one man trunk slammer I took pieces up to the old company i worked for (which is now the new company I work for) and had them thread them for me. It may cost a couple bucks but HD will thread a piece you buy there. If you ever need a 7' or so piece of GRC buy it at home depot and have them cut it and thread your 3' scrap piece. Then save it for this situation.



:thumbsup:


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> it does?
> 
> ~CS~


You know I'm not serious right?


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> Its not ideal placement of the coupling, but its not done wrong. The coupling was installed for its intended use and IMO that coupling is not a big deal, just an eye sore.



Sorry, it's wrong. Too many years of experience and seen to many things.
Cut lengths go above the meter base and a full 10' stick on top.
If you don't have a threader find a friend who does or pay to have a piece threaded.
The thread weakens the GRC and it can snap off above or below the coupling.
Side force is not the intended use of the coupling.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

BrianA said:


> The thread weakens the GRC and it can snap off above or below the coupling.
> Side force is not the intended use of the coupling.



Says Brian Spilner, not the manufacturer


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> Says Brian Spilner, not the manufacturer


Who?


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

We don't call them "mickey mouse ears" - we call them "falopian tubes".


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

mounting the transformer on the panel is kind of cheezy too IMHO. And aren't those STRAPS on the mast? Around these parts we use unistrut/unistrut clamps or u-bolts. Just sayin...


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

kbatku said:


> mounting the transformer on the panel is kind of cheezy too IMHO



Thats just about the only way its done here.

One time in a modular home I saw the doorbell transformer mounted to a 4 square on the ceiling inside of a closet. Do you think it was easier to find it there, or at the panel? Do you leave maps when you relocate the transformer?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Height*

Why did yo put it back so high anyhow? looks like 18'ish feet ?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kbatku said:


> We don't call them "mickey mouse ears" - we call them "falopian tubes".



In this case, they're 'fa*i*lopian'.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> POCO requirement.
> 
> "Conduit couplings are not allowed above the roofline or less than 2 feet below the soffit line."


So, the top ten feet wouldn't have to be a full stick, right? 
Unless having eight feet of mast above the roof is common in Iowa.
:001_huh:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Anyway a no-thread coupling a few feet above the meter would have been the way to go. And easy.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

I_get_shocked said:


> Thats just about the only way its done here.
> 
> One time in a modular home I saw the doorbell transformer mounted to a 4 square on the ceiling inside of a closet. Do you think it was easier to find it there, or at the panel? Do you leave maps when you relocate the transformer?


Most of our panels here are flush, so that wouldn't work - unless you are putting it INSIDE the panel. Please tell me you don't. We (traditionally) mount them either up high on a wall in the in the garage or in a closet.

The closet can be a pain once shelving is installed, but a garage mount usually evokes an "I've always wondered what that was" from the homeowner.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> So, the top ten feet wouldn't have to be a full stick, right?
> Unless having eight feet of mast above the roof is common in Iowa.
> :001_huh:


10' + height of meter = about 14' 

Why not stop there? Looks like a yard or driveway ?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Cletis said:


> 10' + height of meter = about 14'
> 
> Why not stop there? Looks like a yard or driveway ?


Our local poco requires 13' from the ground up. And the bottom of the drip loop must be a foot above the roof if it's a mast.

I didn't understand ken's posts because he said he needed a full stick from the top of the riser/mast down and then he said he can't have a coupling less than two feet below the soffit line. Which means if he had a coupling two feet below, he'd have eight feet of mast rising above the building.

That's what confused me.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

You guys are complaining about having the coupling on the top end? :blink: The whole thing looks nasty! :yes:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

The only thing i don't like about it is the coupling... and I dunno, the meter looks a little low but that doesn't bother me much. 

Rest of his work looks fine.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Peter D said:


> ...The whole thing looks nasty! :yes:


 Other than the coupling, and I'm not sure how strong those two-holes are for supporting a drop, what's the problem? I think my complaints could be solved just by guying the mast.

-John


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Big John said:


> Other than the coupling, and I'm not sure how strong those two-holes are for supporting a drop, what's the problem? I think my complaints could be solved just by guying the mast.
> 
> -John


I don't think conduit looks good on a house, ever. Just my opinion. If it were me I would have eliminated the conduit all together, used SE cable and moved the drop up higher.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Here you wouldn't be able to get away with a coupling above the roof no matter how you supported the mast. We always use two holes secured with three inch lags or strut is sort of common too.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> used SE cable


I knew that was coming.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I knew that was coming.


:sleep1:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:


Just out of curiosity, why is se a prettier looking installation than rmc?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Just out of curiosity, why is se a prettier looking installation than rmc?


It's simply my opinion. Conduit looks ugly on a house.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Just out of curiosity, why is se a prettier looking installation than rmc?


 For something like this, I think RMC looks fine, but if it has to follow the contours of the house, I'd agree, SE looks better.

Nothing nastier than seeing a huge freakin' saddle on the side of a house because someone had to get the mast around an eve.

-John


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

You guys need ti do a few ca style, 2" grc sometimes up two stories in the wall, for the flush meter main's. Back in Michigan se or grc was dependent on if you were dealing with a mast or riser.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> You guys need ti do a few ca style, 2" grc sometimes up two stories in the wall, for the flush meter main's.


I have always considered that a direct violation of 230.70(A). (I understand CA does not see it that way)


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I have always considered that a direct violation of 230.70(A). (I understand CA does not see it that way)


Dual rated cable, right? Their nuts out here anyway. But that only comes into effect In an underground feed.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Most of our panels here are flush, so that wouldn't work - unless you are putting it INSIDE the panel. Please tell me you don't.



I dont, but I have seen them inside many a flush mount panel.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> Thats just about the only way its done here.
> 
> One time in a modular home I saw the doorbell transformer mounted to a 4 square on the ceiling inside of a closet. Do you think it was easier to find it there, or at the panel? Do you leave maps when you relocate the transformer?


Could be worst, I stuck the DB x former on a new work high hat next to the front door.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Could be worst, I stuck the DB x former on a new work high hat next to the front door.


I've done a few basement remods where the xfmr ended up on a high hat. The next guy better be good.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

even if I was there changing a breaker or gfci and I saw those ears, I would cut them and go straight in ....ocd


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## Matt (Feb 3, 2008)

captkirk said:


> even if I was there changing a breaker or gfci and I saw those ears, I would cut them and go straight in ....ocd



Good luck when you go to a job and the wire is burnt and cut to length. What are you going to do then? Wanna replace the load side cable at 9pm on a Sunday? Cause that is when it will happen.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Matt said:


> Good luck when you go to a job and the wire is burnt and cut to length. What are you going to do then? Wanna replace the load side cable at 9pm on a Sunday? Cause that is when it will happen.


9pm at night a splitbolt and piece of scrap w/ some rubber tape would work very well .


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Matt said:


> Good luck when you go to a job and the wire is burnt and cut to length. What are you going to do then? Wanna replace the load side cable at 9pm on a Sunday? Cause that is when it will happen.


Ye$.....


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Couplings above the roof ain't gonna fly 'round these parts. The top 10' must be a full stick.


Same here or damn close to it. My poco wouldn't hook it up.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have seen guys use 2.5" PVC for the bottom part and keep the 10' mast on top..

Some have used a 2.5" to 1.5" threaded reducer on the bottom..

I always go to the local plumbing supply and have them thread me a short piece for $20.00.. I supply the conduit..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I have seen guys use 2.5" PVC for the bottom part and keep the 10' mast on top..
> 
> Some have used a 2.5" to 1.5" threaded reducer on the bottom..
> 
> I always go to the local plumbing supply and have them thread me a short piece for $20.00.. I supply the conduit..


the 2.5 pvc on the bottom is a violation as it lacks ground continuity.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> the 2.5 pvc on the bottom is a violation as it lacks ground continuity.


I know.. but LIPA was connected to it with those old time barrel crimps.. somebody signed off on it..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I know.. but LIPA was connected to it with those old time barrel crimps.. somebody signed off on it..


I did a couple like that myself before I knew better.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

I_get_shocked said:


> I dont, but I have seen them inside many a flush mount panel.


You do recognize, of course, that is wildly not code compliant in so many ways...

right?  

So, if & when you have a flush-mount panel, where do you put your transformers?


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

And speaking of transformers in houses, where do you put them for low voltage lights in kitchens and what not? Just curious - not trying to pick a fight er nuthin. :whistling2:

Us, we've got a wicked sweet system, but, like you said - the next guy better be good....


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

kbatku said:


> And speaking of transformers in houses, where do you put them for low voltage lights in kitchens and what not? Just curious - not trying to pick a fight er nuthin. :whistling2:
> 
> Us, we've got a wicked sweet system, but, like you said - the next guy better be good....


Where ever is best for each job, mechanical room, inside cabinet, pantry, right inside the attic or crawlspace. Every house is different.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Coupling above the roof line is bad juju in Cali.

I was freaked out when I saw the ground in the SE cable doing double-duty as the neutral. But it make sense for them East-Coast panels which have the ground bond in the meter. Wish we could do it that way.

Nice clean job, my compliments to the chef.

EJPHI


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> Where ever is best for each job, mechanical room, inside cabinet, pantry, right inside the attic or crawlspace. Every house is different.


True dat, though I would personally never put them in an attic due to the heat issues. And I would avoid the crawl space, because, well, it's hard to work there, full of spiders, and kind of weirds me out. 

That's just me though.

Our "system" for kitchens involves the contractor(s) helping out a bit and assumes new construction/complete gut remodel. We pre-wire for the transformers underneath the cabinets, in the toe kick space under a drawer area . 

Then the cabinet guy cuts an access hole in the bottom of the cabinet, we hook up the transformers, and presto change-o - low voltage lighting without exposed transformers cluttering up the view. I pity the poor fool who has to find them some day, but if they are good, they'll figure it out.

Right? 

And I guarantee, once they figure it out, they'll never forget it.


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## nhanson (Apr 17, 2010)

i call that a leaning tower of pipe:laughing: (the before one)


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

kbatku said:


> So, if & when you have a flush-mount panel, where do you put your transformers?


I said I've seen it but have no done it. No I don't need a lesson in code compliance, but thanks.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Big John said:


> For something like this, I think RMC looks fine, but if it has to follow the contours of the house, I'd agree, SE looks better.
> 
> Nothing nastier than seeing a huge freakin' saddle on the side of a house because someone had to get the mast around an eve.
> 
> -John


:whistling2:


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

you can buy rigid in 20 ft lengths at the supply house and do it right with out a threader


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

troublemaker1701 said:


> you can buy rigid in 20 ft lengths at the supply house and do it right with out a threader


Them is plumbing lengths.....Some inspectors will violate that.


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Them is plumbing lengths.....Some inspectors will violate that.


*20 Foot Steel Rigid Metal Conduit (RMC) Hot Dipped Galvanized* 
*Underwriters Laboratories Inc. UL Standard for Safety for Electrical Rigid Metal Conduit - Steel, UL 6
*American National Standards Institute, Inc. C80.1
*The Department of Defense and other federal agencies have adopted UL 6 in place of WW-C581


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

I was talking to some guys 2 or 3 years ago that said they were sent down to Mexico building a powerhouse and they had EMT in 20ft lengths, but cut it down to 10 just to make it manageable. I don't know first hand if there's any truth to it though.


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

Yea they make 20 foot* lengths of Electrical Metallic Tubing (EMT) in Trade Sizes 1/2through 4. Never used Emt that long. But used 20' RMC on pipe racks in a rolling mill they had some pretty long runs.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*10ft*

I'd of just put a 10ft piece of aluminum conduit on and put a rack up and call it a day 

http://www.republic-conduit.com/?id=238


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

troublemaker1701 said:


> Yea they make 20 foot* lengths of Electrical Metallic Tubing (EMT) in Trade Sizes 1/2through 4. Never used Emt that long. But used 20' RMC on pipe racks in a rolling mill they had some pretty long runs.


 That is illegal. I honestly do not know why.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> That is illegal. I honestly do not know why.


:laughing: But why???....is the first question anyone will ask you.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> That is illegal. I honestly do not know why.



Why is 20' sticks of raceway illegal?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

maybe because max span is 12' for support so with 20' section some people will only support them at each 20' ?


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

oliquir said:


> maybe because max span is 12' for support so with 20' section some people will only support them at each 20' ?


You mean 10'


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

no i meant 12' i have some T&B cable trays that are 10' long and max span listed on them is 12' or 3 meter :blink:


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

oliquir said:


> no i meant 12' i have some T&B cable trays that are 10' long and max span listed on them is 12' or 3 meter :blink:


Ok. Thought you meant strapping conduit every 12.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

oliquir said:


> maybe because max span is 12' for support so with 20' section some people will only support them at each 20' ?


I don't get it..... what does support rules have to do with the length of raceway sections purchased?

I can buy 1' and 2' sticks of EMT at my local hardware store. They also sell 5' and 10' sticks. I can go to the supply house and buy 20' sticks. What does that have to do with field support?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

i just listed what is written on cable tray, and it is wrong because it is listed 12' or 3m which is 10'


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

I_get_shocked said:


> Heres two before and afters from two different jobs. Sorry in advance for the mickey mouse ears, the EC I work for likes it that way. :jester:
> 
> The panel "after pics" were before the GECs were landed.


Who makes that panel you installed ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ah!!! A conduit coupling, the horror. The universe might end or something :laughing:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Who makes that panel you installed ?


Siemens


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