# Bidding another new construction.



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Well not exactly, it’s a 2-family that is fully gutted down to studs and Joists. 

I have never won a new construction because my numbers are too high. 

I don’t know how to properly adjust numbers. If I use my normal prices my end number comes out to high. 

If I do my take-offs 4000 sq’ of living area breaks down to 58k with a disconnect rigid service and 3 panels. 

Fire alarm , 50 recessed , 4 baths and the rest is common install....

I really want to get my first NC job , but even if I take 10k off my number , it seems I’ll still be too high compared with other rope swingers. 

What shall I do here ? 




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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Well not exactly, it’s a 2-family that is fully gutted down to studs and Joists.
> 
> I have never won a new construction because my numbers are too high.
> 
> ...


It looks to me like you are at $14.5 per sq ft. 

They do them for less than 1/2 that here.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I believe union rates in southeast are also about half of northeast...

The last job I bidded worked out to around $11 sq’ on a 7000 sq’ home.

Needless to say I didn’t win that either 

This was a rough take off which I plan to adjust ....I just didn’t expect too have to adjust that much..... 

I don’t think I’ll have a chance unless I get under 40....

My gut tells me bids will come through 32-40 on this 2 family 


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

If you are slow and sitting around losing money, drop the price and stay busy for a bit.

If you've got more work that would keep you just as busy and make your full rate, why bother? Bid it full price, if they bite, rake in the cash. If they don't, stay the normal course.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I believe union rates in southeast are also about half of northeast...
> 
> The last job I bidded worked out to around $11 sq’ on a 7000 sq’ home.
> 
> ...


You can do these all day long with a professional residential rough and trim crew.
We can't do these ourselves. It's like paying Drs. to change sheets and mop floors. 
Plug the right people in and you might be able to get at $8 per foot.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The reason I need to get my first one is to have a gauge to work off of... 

I may find it may not be worth it in terms of my service work. 

I’d like to see for myself , but don’t want to lose my shirt 


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Helpers. They will wire that house in two days. There will be 7 of them

That house is going to go for 30 - 35 grand.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I may throw out a number between 36-38 just to get this out of the way.....

I’ll make off regardless , maybe not as much as I’d like. 

It’s in February which may or may not be slow...

And the units are stacked mirrored reflection identical, would be a great place to start 

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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I may throw out a number between 36-38 just to get this out of the way.....
> 
> I’ll make off regardless , maybe not as much as I’d like.
> 
> ...


Nobody is going to talk you out of it then.

One thing that can cause you problems is having to mobilize more times then absolutely necessary.
You need to be selfish and not cave in every time the GC cries wolf.
Tell the GC not to call you until every stud is standing and both the mechanical and plumbing contractor are roughed in and if any ductwork runs over any recessed lights it's their problem for not looking at the plans not yours.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

It still comes down to (labor+material)x efficiency.

I would work it as per item and then check it against time + material. See if they came close or way off. 

I was lucky enough to have held onto a price rate sheet for new construction. I adjusted the pricing for my labor rates as theirs was based a lot lower. 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Here , $14.50 a sq ft would get you the reputation
of "_don't bother calling them"_ through the
HBA network of home builders in N.E. Ohio.

I'm pretty certain I'm on that list and I've tried 
$8.75 a sq ft only to have one of the following happen..
* the door slammed on my face
* a counter offer alleging they are currently paying 
$3.50 a sq ft and are looking to do better...:huh:

I have completely given up on working for HBA builders


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I've seen those shallow numbers and always wonder how people can take a job at a loss.
I'm not in that market at all but if a couple of the guys wanted to try one, my walk away price would be about $7.50 per sf.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Well not exactly, it’s a 2-family that is fully gutted down to studs and Joists.
> 
> I have never won a new construction because my numbers are too high.
> 
> ...


Thank your lucky stars.

Because of the low skill level involved, there is no profit to be had by ECs at this end of the market.*

Instead, budding ECs are just selling their personal labor.* *

It beats sitting at home... for them.

* There are no $$$ to be retained by the business -- as a business. Labor expenses totally burned up the receipts -- which, BTW, will prove Hell to collect. It's as common as dust for GCs to burn ECs in this end of the market. 

For down-to-the-studs re-habs also involve the least skill for GCs... with MANY opportunities for cost over-runs. These can be seen in virtually every "This Old House" re-hab. What happens is that the home ower totally fails to realize how crappy the original build was// how often the plumbers compromised its structure// how 'leaky' the air infiltration was// how much insect damage was hidden// how the foundation has been failing for years// how those old rubble foundations were crap...

As the money gets tight, suddenly it occurs to the home ower and GC that the late arriving subs ought to pick up the deficit. Late arriving is where you come in. The EC is ALWAYS one of the very last subs involved in any build. The foundation boys have long been paid. You never hear about them getting stiffed.

&&&

Another factor: weather.

As the temperatures plunge, many ECs attempt to squeeze into conditioned spaces over the Winter. 

Meaning that they are actually willing to lose money on jobs -- just to keep the troops in the saddle -- awaiting Spring.

If this is you, go for it.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I didn’t think and never did think this was the Market to get into.... 

I may take a shot at this one because the GC Happens to be the owner and one of the units he will live in.... 

This is a higher end craftsmen style buildout in the heart of the city... 

For this reason only this may be a special case especially if he’s interested in quality work...

He did ask that all Receptacle circuits be ran using 12/2 

I’m willing to bet he paid 1.3 for the property and it was completely down to bones when I went to look at it. 

But in general, I usually stay away from NC....this is my 5th NC bid 


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> I didn’t think and never did think this was the Market to get into....
> 
> I may take a shot at this one because the GC Happens to be the owner and one of the units he will live in....
> 
> ...


A GC putting on his 'electrician's hat' -- give me a break.

12-2 a total waste for most home circuits... 14-2 is plenty.

I could accept 12-2 as a home run spec -- for a larger structure. (15A C/Bs of course.)

In home construction, one wants the freedom to co-mingle lighting and receptacle circuits. Whereas, in non-Residential, it's taboo.

Is the GC willing to waste money to install bolt-on circuit breakers ?

You need to have a 'sit' with the GC and straighten him out: YOU are the expert in all things electrical -- not him.

If you're doing this as a Design-Build -- then just make sure that your circuits are largely 'unloaded.' ( easy to do in a world of LED lighting ) That means that a given 15A combined lighting and receptacle circuit is loaded to no more than 4A of lighting -- leaving plenty for intermittent loads upon its receptacles, which are not so many.

Such schemes lead to easy roping... and cut down on homeruns.

A lighting-only circuit can be loaded to 9A ( LEDs ) ( which should produce radiation burns for those naked ?) something justified for the kitchen and dining room -- where the receptacles will be on their own 20A C/Bs.

And, some how, I figure this is going to be a Design-Build project.

What would be sweet is to lose this deal to another EC.

GCs figure such projects are supposed to be charity work -- from you to him.

It's like bidding on Church work. 

[ FYI European cathedrals took centuries to build because the Church didn't pay for them... the faithful did. This meant that work started and stopped every season -- and often stopped for decades at a time... like, if there was a war underway. ]

[ Hard to believe, but it was common for a Big Man to buy or establish a quarry. Then he'd sell stone to GCs to build the local city. On the side, he'd toss in some stones for the cathedral... while flogging the faithful to buy this or that stone for the project. A successful merchant could save his soul by buying a stone per year. Yup. This made for slow going -- and a lot of sins forgiven, too. ]

[ Anyone that erected stones above ground was universally known as a "free mason" BTW. The primary market for stone: pavers. They consisted of the rejects that could not be used by free masons. What? You thought they paved the streets with gold ? ]


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> A GC putting on his 'electrician's hat' -- give me a break.
> 
> 12-2 a total waste for most home circuits... 14-2 is plenty.
> 
> ...




Idk I wish my house was all 20A ckts (not lighting , but receptacles...
Or more Dedicated 15A Receptacle ckts.... 

I like electronics , I have a couple electric wall
Mounted fireplaces , home theater, office, etc... 

before I moved in I could trip out every single room. 

So maybe his thinking isn’t too far off. 


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Idk I wish my house was all 20A ckts (not lighting , but receptacles...
> Or more Dedicated 15A Receptacle ckts....
> 
> I like electronics , I have a couple electric wall
> ...


It's not the wire gauge, it's that the circuits are too few.

You're better off using 14-2 and running MANY more circuits. 

Don't wire the joint up like it's Commercial. 

My approach is throwing just as much copper into the building -- perhaps even more -- but is making make-up a breeze.

The typical (cheesy) residential receptacle is not even engineered for #12. You CAN get #12 to work, but it's slow going. #12 only flies into Specification Grade receptacles... which start to run into real money as the count runs up.

A lightly loaded #14 conductor behaves as a freeway for EMF. It's a better deal than a much more loaded #12 conductor. And #14 installs so much faster. Here we're talking make-up speed -- and box congestion.

In Romex world, the conductors are always SOLID. Tucking #12 back into a plastic box -- which was really designed for #14 -- goes slow.

There's a real tendency to deny -- to ourselves -- just how much slower tucking #12 back into a box can be. I've clocked it. It's remarkable. Receptacles that I could cram into a j-box without thinking -- become a chore-near-the-floor when #12 makes them cramped.

#12 SUCKS for residential lighting fixtures. They're not designed for #12. You end up with the same SLOW make-up tempo. Yes, the NEMA players have designed everything _that_ tightly. ( Something that happens when the production run will be 10,000,000+ units. At such volumes, a $ 0.01 saving = $ 100,000. This explains the razor sharp edges found on so many fixtures. It'd cost $.50 to buff each one out. )

&&&

So the rule is: stay with #14 at every turn -- but don't spare the circuits -- get a long panel. 42 circuits is no longer the limit for lighting panels.

I'd also pitch a 320A Service. Jumping from 200A to 320A is not a major labor burner. 

Tell Mr. Big that you're setting him up for Tesla, hot tubs, and de-icing circuits.

These are loads that are intermittent. But important when they are necessary.

They use lots of wire, C/Bs, but not all that much juice -- annually. 

But, in this day and age, like Hell should the steps to your front door be iced over. It's just too dangerous.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> It's not the wire gauge, it's that the circuits are too few.
> 
> You're better off using 14-2 and running MANY more circuits.
> 
> ...




Agreed , I would much rather work with 14 all around 

12 for Lighting , no thanks. 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> What would be sweet is to lose this deal to another EC.
> 
> GCs figure such projects are supposed to be charity work -- from you to him.
> 
> It's like bidding on Church work.


@wongun - the guy has sent you a lot of profitable work, and you expect him to send you more in the future? If so maybe you should go for it. 

Number one, it sounds like you have your heart set on losing some money in residential construction. (Not actually losing money on the job, losing money because while you're doing this you're not making better money somewhere else.) 

Number two, @telsa 's probably right, he's expecting a gift here. 

So you might as well lose that money on THIS job, at least it will build your relationship with this contractor. That will lead to more profitable commercial work from this contractor. You could consider the money you lose like a really nice fruit basket you're giving him for Christmas. 

I'd emphasize that you're giving him a REALLY low price. Explain that you're going to do a lot better work than the crews you're bidding against, and you're doing it as a favor, and you're a man than knows how to repay a favor. Bring it up every ten minutes or so  

In fact I'd tell him you're pricing this pretty much AT COST for him. That way hopefully extras are not freebies, they're at a discount but not free, apologize for charging him at all but MENTION YOU"RE MAKING ZIP HERE and you have to ask for just a few bucks to defray the cost. A guy asking for 12 gauge is going to ask for more little extras. I don't mind that as long as they're not freebies, I like doing things a little better than minimums. 

If you didn't have your heart set on dipping into less-profitable residential for a bit, you could just buy him a nice housewarming present and lose a lot less money. 

Of course, depending on the person, if you're the guy that knows how the house is wired, and the guy he wants working on it in the future, he might think twice about jerking you around in the future. It may build your relationship with this guy in a way that fruit baskets can't.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

One of the reasons I got into business, aside from wanting to be an entrepreneur and create a profitable business (duh), was to have more control over what I did and the risk associated with it.

I'm not you, but if I was, I'd spend my time and effort on smaller, less risky and more profitable work.

Do a search on some of HackWorks posts about the type of profitable jobs he does. Service upgrades, wiring for portable gensets, car chargers, etc. Jobs that don't involve GC's (or people pretending to be GC's), developers, real estate agents or property management companies. They'll suck the life out of you. It's not worth taking the risk to find one that won't suck the life out of you. 

Simple one or two day jobs can be some of the most profitable work you'll do if your priced right and run an efficient operation. 

Trust me WrongGun, I know what I'm talking about. :thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> A GC putting on his 'electrician's hat' -- give me a break.
> 
> 12-2 a total waste for most home circuits... 14-2 is plenty.
> 
> ...


This part about the "church work" is what I want to 
comment on.

I have often said , if you attend church , do NOT 
drive their in your company vehicle. and when 
asked what you do for a living ..say "construction 
worker".

From my experience you'll be run absolutely ragged
from both the church board and from the paritioners
all expecting special deals (even freebies).

I got burnt out on it and started to just say no and 
before you know it , your on the outside looking in.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m obviously too new in the game to give a real opinion. 

At this point my 2 high-end GC’s have been highly profitable.... I’ve also had 2 bigger projects this year at temple grounds that were highly profitable. 

As far as the NC job I’m going to put my price on it and move according to my strict terms. Maybe I won’t win it , but that’s ok. 

I feel like a Lone Ranger out here because no one can get electricians.. I answer every call, text, and email..

I’m on top of everything and follow through to the end, and make sure everyone is satisfied..... for this I get paid very handsomely and my clients do not blink at my prices. 

So with the times and my territory my thoughts may be a little skewed.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

I did a similar job to this. 2500sq ft, 2 hvac systems, recess lights etc. 

I lowered my price by thousands... because it was so close I could walk to it. The project is till ongoing, the home owner ended up being the GC, framer, trim and everything he didn’t need a specialized trade for. It was a **** show to say the least. Poor work, no scheduling, wanted it trimmed out before putting drywall up.

I have vowed to never lower my price like that again and most likely never do a rewire job either. There was no money in it. Every minute I spend there, I lost money. 


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

How are you pricing it out? Assemblies? Do your assemblies have a different labor rate calculated than your service rate?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> How are you pricing it out? Assemblies? Do your assemblies have a different labor rate calculated than your service rate?




My first approach was I priced it all out according to service rates per item. 

Now I will break it down a few ways ...

Estimated Material cost + estimated time 

I’m not going to compete with the NC market.. I’m going to give him My price. Take it or leave it. 

Everything is clean , and all old electrical is completely gone. Realistically, this could get whipped out pretty fast , but I’m not going to price it out that way. 

All the points mentioned are very valid and I’m sure come from more experience then I currently have. With that said , I’d still like to try one out and have one under my belt. 

I think I can put together an attractive proposal pushing a “Higher-end” Install/Material. I may be the highest but also the only one who presents this way. 

I win alot of jobs as the highest bidder. For an actual GC this may not work in most build-outs , but I think I can try to sell the home owner. 

As a business owner I feel obligated to always send an estimate to someone who seeks me out... They may not be able to afford my prices but I always send out the estimate. 


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Wrongun

Your schedule sounds swamped.
I honestly think , if you really want to do this (NC)
then you should just stick to your numbers cause 
with a busy schedule that you already have , the 
lower profit job (NC) may end up costing you more
in missed work ops that you may not get to.

What Kryton just said above about it being a s**t show
is often more the norm because so many states allow
these jobs to be GC'd by knuckleheads with less 
oversight from OSHA (my states occupational safety
hazards watchdog , building departments etc)...

Stick to your "Right"-guns (heh-heh-heh):thumbsup:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Like Comando says, you should have numbers based on assemblies. You should have a number for each rough opening. 

I get asked for a price on a new home or addition from time to time. I'm always happy to give them a number. Most of the time I don't hear back. It depends on who it was, but sometimes I'll get to find out what the winning number is. It's always half my price. No worries, I don't need the work or money that bad. I can't stand the feeling of spending my free time working for wages. At their prices I would be working for half my wages. 

The only new work I get is from insurance money. Then there not so cheap. And you still get screwed in the end!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@WronGun a little late response here and I only looked quickly at this, maybe someone already said this - 

It sounds like you have your heart set on wiring a house as a learning experience rather than a money making endeavor. Sometimes a business does this - does some work at cost or at a loss to see if they can branch into it. Now they usually do that to get into higher margin work, not lower. But maybe you can make money getting into residential new construction so maybe you do this to find out. 

Just don't forget breaking even on a job is losing money, losing the money you'd have made doing something profitable with that time, and you can never get time back, ever. You'd be wasting a month of a boom time making zip. 

But if you're going to do it, you might as well do it on the home of a someone that sends you profitable work, if you can bank some good will. I hate doing residential work but I work on my business customer's homes. Number one, I don't want some bottomfeeder giving them ideas and coming after the real work. Number two, some of the more complicated work is hard to maintain; people will think twice before they screw you over for a few nickels if you're the guy that takes care of their home.


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