# LED solid-state lighting, gas stations: Case review of British Petroleum project



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow .......


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> ARCO, a retail station brand used by the British Petroleum Company in west coast USA have been expanding LED retrofits around here.
> 
> Both brand names are infamous for their involvement in major environmental damage incidents. I'm not sure if the purpose of the retrofit is simply for monetary return or if corporate image restoration is part of it.


Many of the chains are, and have been under fire for their light pollution in the community. Many states have adopted lighting ordinances specifically for petroleum islands, and their building plans with lighting levels must be approved before breaking ground. These are lighting trespass restrictions defining footcandle limits at the property boundary, and layouts with something like AGI32 must be submitted.

It doesn't make much difference what any previous lighting was or how old it was. They are most likely trying to conform, for public image of course.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

LightsRus said:


> Many of the chains are, and have been under fire for their light pollution in the community.


That wasn't what I meant. I meant restoring image following last year's oil spill and ARCO's huge superfund site through "image of sustainable operation" Even though LEDs may not really be all that helpful, I suppose it may have an image as being eco friendly.

It's like driving a Prius portrays environmentally consciousness than driving a Ford Escape Hybrid, or a Honda Fit that gets a similar mileage, simply because of the general public's association of Prius with clean.


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> That wasn't what I meant. I meant restoring image following last year's oil spill and ARCO's huge superfund site through "image of sustainable operation" Even though LEDs may not really be all that helpful, I suppose it may have an image as being eco friendly.
> 
> It's like driving a Prius portrays environmentally consciousness than driving a Ford Escape Hybrid, or a Honda Fit that gets a similar mileage, simply because of the general public's association of Prius with clean.


I suppose you can state whatever you want, it's your thread.

My posting is stating a lighting fact. There are petroleum canopy lighting regulations. They are required to submit plans to document lighting levels at property boundaries.



> ARCO, a retail station brand used by the British Petroleum Company in west coast USA have been expanding LED retrofits around here. A couple months ago, I've only seen them on very few stations, but I'm seeing more ARCO branded British Petroleum stations going LED.
> 
> Personally, I can clearly recognize its LED from the street. The color is slightly different from MH and for the intended purpose, I think the lighting serves just fine and they look just fine from the street. I can say that I don't find the lighting lacking or objectionable for the purpose of seeing what I'm doing while pumping gas into my car.


Many of us might have felt the earth shake when you approved of this LED lighting. So I was attempting to support you.

The LED fixtures can have very sharp cut off, and are a natural solution to mandated light trespass regulations. Whatever lighting they had previously is probably irrelevant.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Read the report, yep, simple payback ie.. Watt not used over what would have been used is about right. Now factor in: Maintenance costs, disposal of M/H bulbs, cost of new M/H and cap/ballast at LEAST twice during life cycle of LED. ROI comes WAYYY down.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> Read the report, yep, simple payback ie.. Watt not used over what would have been used is about right.
> 
> Now factor in: Maintenance costs, disposal of M/H bulbs


True



> cost of new M/H and cap/ballast


It's a matter of semantics, but the interface between line and lamp is called "ballast" for gas discharge lamps, "driver" for LEDs, but they serve the same purpose. HID ballasts are usually core and coil. LED drivers are usually switching mode power supply like computer power supplies and fluorescent ballasts. I'm not sure where you get the idea that LED drivers do not suffer from failures like every other ballast. 



> at LEAST twice during life cycle of LED. ROI comes WAYYY down.


You missed something even more important. So you go buy a $50,000 car and you put down $10,000 upfront. If you want to pay it off in six years(about the length of PBP), do you really think your payments are going to be $555.56/mo x 72(zero interest cost)? This was my main emphasis.

Whatever you're paying for your house now a month, if you kept the mortgage the same you'd pay off your house much sooner if it was simply principle amount owned divided by number of installments. These energy retrofits are so costly its like a second mortgage for property owners, yet the payback analysis assumes loan is extended for free.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

So, we just ignore the fact that LED has efficacy and light quality that approaches M/H at a fraction of the operating cost, that has a MUCH longer service life, That has no hazwaste disposal fees, That essentially eliminates the maintenance load, Is instant on, immediate re-strike, and is dimmable just because there is a higher initial investment? The case study listed was a gas station where the lights are only on for a fraction of the time it would be on in an industrial setting where the ROI would be considerably shorter. If we ignore the technology as it becomes available, we end up two to three generations behind the modern, efficient equipment that makes our lives easier, and those who embrace it are in a better position when even newer, more efficient tech comes along.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> So, we just ignore the fact that LED has *efficacy and light quality that approaches M/H* at a fraction of the operating cost, that has a MUCH longer service life, That has no hazwaste disposal fees, That essentially eliminates the maintenance load, Is instant on, immediate re-strike, and is dimmable just because there is a higher initial investment?


We don't know that. Pulse start MH is rated 20,000 hours. At end of life, the output is around 60% of new. 

LED's output at 50,000 hours is supposed to be 70% of new.

It is *not mentioned* in the report what state of decay the existing MH was. Matching brand new LEDs against pretty much done MH lamps is not a fair comparison. 

If LED @ 100% = MH @ 60%, when LED is nearing its EOL, it would be 0.6 x 0.7 = 42% the output of new MH.

Suppose you're evaluating performance of brand new model snow tires and compare to old ones. If the conditions are not disclosed, how do you know the old tires aren't hardened and nearly bald? 



> The case study listed was a gas station where the lights are only on for a fraction of the time it would be on in an industrial setting where the ROI would be considerably shorter.


It's like buying a Prius. We all know it gets fairly good mileage, but also, fair bit more expensive than comparably equipped normal car. Even using simple payback, the time needed to pay off the difference compared to similarly equipped non-hybrid car is considerable even at $5/gallon, 12,000 miles/year. It's pretty much accepted that it's for personal value in environmental consciousness or a exhibition thereof as opposed to being a financially sustainable decision.

The calculation already shows the PBP is 6.6 years without the $10,000 grant and blatantly ignoring all real life financial aspects. 



> If we ignore the technology as it becomes available, we end up two to three generations behind the modern, efficient equipment that makes our lives easier, and those who embrace it are in a better position when even newer, more efficient tech comes along.


I don't keep track of high tech stuff as much now, but usually the fastest, top of the line CPU is CONSIDERABLY more expensive than one that's somewhat slower, but not by much. Some people choose to get the fastest just for bragging rights.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

The car analogy was pretty good exept for one thing, If you have say, a 1980 K car that chugs along at maybe 15mpg. With the higher fuel consumtion, you also have a higher maintenance burden. Now, when you go to the dealer, he is not gonna give squat in trade in on that 1980 aries. The question becomes, am I willing to accept that the new vehicle I buy gets about the same milage(say a f150), or seeing as I need to make a change anyway, go for the hybrid? True, the hybrid does have a higher price tag but the fact that it has considerably better fuel efficiency may be the tipping point. Now if you have say a 2002 Ford that gets maybe 20-25 MPG, and it's paid for, maintenance isn't a big issue yet, then the scale maybe tips the other way..... 
Elecctric Light, there is a perception in this forum that your vested interest in selling bulbs, balast, service, etc.. makes you maybe a little less objective in the whole debate. Myself, I am a maintenance man, whatever gives me the least trouble, with good results, I am all for. I however answer to a plant manager and he to a corporation that minds the $$$ very closely. That said, I am currently working on an analysis to see just how conversion to LED or Induction would benefit us. I don't have a dog in the fight so I will be taking as much data as I can and presenting it to the engineers/accountants. Then the chips fall where they may and I have to execute...


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> I am currently working on an analysis to see just how conversion to LED or Induction would benefit us. I don't have a dog in the fight so I will be taking as much data as I can and presenting it to the engineers/accountants. Then the chips fall where they may and I have to execute...


From the report you guys are discussing, I don't see the maintenance and replacement costs. Well, I don't see product costs at all. Did I miss this?

The report makes reference to savings, but that is a relative number, meaning you must have some operating cost to begin with. It establishes energy cost savings with original lights vs the new lights. 

As for product cost, it shows only the project cost, leaving one to guess or fill in the blanks. We know the MH would be replaced 2 or 3 times in the LED life. 

How would your accountant (Jmohl) address that other side of the equation?


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Maintenance costs factored in at my labor rate at approximately 1hr/fixture, plus the cost of replacement components plus cost of disposal of hazwaste at the periodicity of mean mortality. Operating cost is pretty straight forward. We already have 400W m/H so we can figure out their consumption pretty easy. The others, LED, T8, Induction, we can do likewise. I am obtaining a light meter so that I can get an apples to apples light reading at our working height from various distances from center of fixture. Once I give it to engineering, they will make a rec, and as long as the ROI meets company standards, and the budget will allow, we will get approval for a capitol expense...


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

I pulled quotes for comparably equipped Honda Civic sedan and its hybrid equivalent in cash prices.
$16,600 for base Civic Sedan with automatic
$23,400 for comparably equipped Hybrid Civic 

Edmunds 5 year ownership cost estimator which assumes 15,000 mile/year and financed purchase shows
$29.1K for standard
$31.4K for automatic 

After five years, you're $2,300 behind. This is not on good track when you're aiming for 3-5 year PBP, preferably around 3. "it'll pay off EVENTUALLY" is not acceptable in many situations. 

Have you read about the mother who got past due child support of $93K after interest after 30 years? It's better than nothing, but what good does it do when much needed cash is tied up in a hope that it'll pay off decades later?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/21/struggling-mother-gets-93_n_865127.html

If I walk in with $16.6K in cash, I walk out free and clear with the gas Civic owing nothing. If I want a hybrid, I will have to take out a loan for $6,800 and owing the creditor for whatever the duration of financing term and in the end, I will still likely come behind. 

Do the same on edmunds.com with Ford Escape and any other vehicle that are available in hybrid and non-hybrid with comparable configurations. You'll get more or less the same outcome. 

It costs more upfront, then you come behind five years later. Could it get any worse? 



> Elecctric Light, there is a perception in this forum that your vested interest in selling bulbs, balast, service, etc.. makes you maybe a little less objective in the whole debate. Myself, I am a maintenance man, whatever gives me the least trouble, with good results, I am all for. I however answer to a plant manager and he to a corporation that minds the $$$ very closely.


I don't ever recommend making decisions from single source research. You are encouraged to look around and gather as much information as possible. 

Many retrofit sales use simple payback ignoring all finance costs despite the fact they themselves do not offer interest free loan for the duration of payback period. 

It's a plain fact that there's no such thing as free money borrowing. When you borrow money, you incur interest expenses. This isn't a matter of bias. It's a fact of reality. 

We *ALL* know that in this real world, the monthly payment is *always* higher than principle divided by the number of payments because of interest, but retrofit sales usually pretend it isn't. Are you convinced that this is free of bias? 

As for maintenance cost, fluorescents do have ballasts to fail. So do HIDs, induction and LED. Fluorescent ballasts are usually on five year warranty, similar to some LED and HID fixtures. Are we on the same page? 

The maintenance guy isn't the one who will face the opportunity cost of cash dumped into a retrofit nor is he the one who will be paying the bank the interest.



Jmohl said:


> Maintenance costs factored in at my labor rate at approximately 1hr/fixture


It takes you three 8 hour working days to group-relamp 24 fixtures at a gas station??


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> Maintenance costs factored in at my labor rate at approximately 1hr/fixture, plus the cost of replacement components plus cost of disposal of hazwaste at the periodicity of mean mortality. Operating cost is pretty straight forward. We already have 400W m/H so we can figure out their consumption pretty easy. The others, LED, T8, Induction, we can do likewise. I am obtaining a light meter so that I can get an apples to apples light reading at our working height from various distances from center of fixture. Once I give it to engineering, they will make a rec, and as long as the ROI meets company standards, and the budget will allow, we will get approval for a capitol expense...


This is all good.

My concern was more of the new product cost and life, divided by the original product cost by how many times that cost is repeated during the proposed improvement. 

These costs are not shown in that subject report.


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> Elecctric Light, there is a perception in this forum that your vested interest in selling bulbs, balast, service, etc.. makes you maybe a little less objective in the whole debate.


There is no question that E_L is against LEDs. He has admitted that fact on numerous occasions. But besides all that..... 

The interest factor on these paybacks is essential (Thank you E_L)

How does this discussion keep getting out into the weeds over cars or trucks and gas mileage?????

Come on now. 
One light costs $____ It consumes ____ W It lasts ____ years
Another light costs $____ It consumes ___ W It lasts ____ years

This is not rocket science. There are many calculators, we have one that does it WITH THAT INTEREST http://www.streetlightingfla.com/roi-wide.htm


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

LightsRus said:


> How does this discussion keep getting out into the weeds over cars or trucks and gas mileage?????


Because the concept is very similar. The justification for going with one type with higher upfront cost is the promise of eventual payback through savings in energy, which is gas for cars, and electricity for lighting. 




LightsRus said:


> Come on now.
> One light costs $____ It consumes ____ W It lasts ____ years
> Another light costs $____ It consumes ___ W It lasts ____ years
> 
> This is not rocket science. There are many calculators, we have one that does it WITH THAT INTEREST http://www.streetlightingfla.com/roi-wide.htm


You must be assuming zero maintenance cost for LED.

Commercial lighting is often left on for >12hrs/day and there are lamps with 55,000 hour life rating. Using parallel wired system and recommended maintenance internval of 70%*, I plugged in 38,500 hrs for group-relamp, and it pushes back PBP to >6 yrs on your calculator. 

For HPS, let's not forget the dual arc tube lamps which doubles the maintenance interval. 

*http://www.heco.com/vcmcontent/StaticFiles/pdf/MichaelSmith.pdf

As for the lamp operating device (ballast, driver, power supply, etc), all discharge lighting and LEDs have them, but without a large enough statistical data, there's no telling if the driver for one type of light source is more reliable than other. There are anecdotal claims like "I've seen plenty of failed fluorescent ballasts, but never seen fried LED driver", but this is useless. It's hardly a surprise considering the number of fluorescent ballasts in use vs LEDs.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, so I have heard back from the person who created the demo. I'm told that he does not know the age of the existing lamps, however that, "anecdotally" customer is happy with the LED.

It still remains under question if the LED system is comparable to HIDs in maintained luminance.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

If all goes well, the sales rep that I have been working with is bringing his demos in next week. Light meter in hand, spread sheets worked out, testing and eval the following week.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

In many ways, demos are like canned food that was just prepared the day before. 

Sure, it was tasty. It wasn't bad. Was the canning process successful to achieve flavor preservation for the duration it claims? Who knows, only time will tell.


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## johnsmithabe (May 3, 2011)

thanks


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## johnsmithabe (May 3, 2011)

how you conform its prepared day before?
its just a belief.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

johnsmithabe said:


> how you conform its prepared day before?
> its just a belief.


When you read the demo report, you'll see that its comparing existing system's performance against INITIAL performance of the LED.

This is just like freshly canned food with claimed shelf life of 5 years. Bringing them for tasting event does not demonstrate the ability to preserve the food for five years.


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