# California 3-way's



## TheDudeAbides (Jul 20, 2011)

Where you have the hot leg and the switch leg in the same box and the other switch location just has your travelers. Using your white in your 14-3 to send the hot to the other box. Of course you mark the white with some black tape to show it's used as a hot wire. 

Has anyone ever been confused at first glance?? I pulled my hair out for about 20 mins before I realized what it was.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If I understand you correctly that is not a california 3 way and is a very common install.


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## TheDudeAbides (Jul 20, 2011)

:whistling2:


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## ScooterMcGavin (Jan 24, 2011)

I have always known that as a dead-end 3-way because there is only one cable going into the box on the one end. Those are used all the time. Most of the ones I have seen they don't bother to re-identify the white conductor. 

A California 3-way or Hollywood 3-way I as I generally know them is an entirely different animal which involves connecting a neutral and a hot to the travelers and sending the common to one side of the light fixture.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Wrap you mind around this animal. I have heard this called a travelling bus 3 way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

scameron81 said:


> ...........A California 3-way or Hollywood 3-way I as I generally know them is an entirely different animal which involves connecting a neutral and a hot to the travelers and sending the common to one side of the light fixture.


AKA Carter 3-way.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

scameron81 said:


> I have always known that as a dead-end 3-way because there is only one cable going into the box on the one end. Those are used all the time. Most of the ones I have seen they don't bother to re-identify the white conductor


This is over as of NEC 2011 404.2(C)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> This is over as of NEC 2011 404.2(C)



Dead-end three-ways are still legal. 2011 included.


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## john120/240 (May 28, 2010)

14-2-2 is a work around for three way switching


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

john120/240 said:


> 14-2-2 is a work around for three way switching


14-4 works even better. No remarking.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

Those are some interesting diagrams. I haven't ever seen any wired like that. As for the dead end 3 ways I have seen them an used them. I don't do much residential at all so I use conduit and bx to run my 3 ways most of the time but if the wires all go to the right places it doesn't really matter what setup you have as long as it's up to code, it works and others can make sense of it.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Dead-end three-ways are still legal. 2011 included.


The exception in 404.2(A) is for avoiding inductive heating (see 300.20(A)).


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Just draw them out a few times. After you've messed with enough three ways you'll be able to just peek in the box and know what's what. We've all wired them wrong once or twice.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> .......... We've all wired them wrong once or twice.



I'd be hard-pressed to believe anyone was accidently wired a Cali 3-way.


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## Ellismate (Apr 8, 2011)

Really don't get the point of the California 3way seems like it's just there to confuse you. Aside from the dead end 3way if you have a switch leg on one end and power at the other, you're in good shape.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ellismate said:


> Really don't get the point of the California 3way seems like it's just there to confuse you. Aside from the dead end 3way if you have a switch leg on one end and power at the other, you're in good shape.


The 'point' is you only need three conductors between the two switches, not four.


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## Ellismate (Apr 8, 2011)

480sparky said:


> The 'point' is you only need three conductors between the two switches, not four.


Why would there be four? Every 3way I've done has a 3 wire between the switches.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ellismate said:


> Why would there be four? Every 3way I've done has a 3 wire between the switches.


And still have the receptacle at the far end work?


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## Ellismate (Apr 8, 2011)

480sparky said:


> And still have the receptacle at the far end work?


Sorry I was talking about a 3 way and not with the receptacle, guess I got a little confused


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Can't have a dead end 3way even in the CEC?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Aegis said:


> Can't have a dead end 3way even in the CEC?



Dead-ends are still legal in the NEC.


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## Ellismate (Apr 8, 2011)

Aegis said:


> Can't have a dead end 3way even in the CEC?


What rule is that? I always put dead ends in. Now I don't want to be called on it!!

What's the reasoning behind no dead ends in the NEC?


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## Ellismate (Apr 8, 2011)

Ellismate said:


> What rule is that? I always put dead ends in. Now I don't want to be called on it!!
> 
> What's the reasoning behind no dead ends in the NEC?


Forget that last question......... Geez I thought Monday mornings were rough.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ellismate said:


> What rule is that? I always put dead ends in. Now I don't want to be called on it!!
> 
> What's the reasoning behind no dead ends in the NEC?



Once again: * Dead-end 3-ways are still legal in the NEC*.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Once again: Dead-end 3-ways are still legal in the NEC.


Speak clearly, what are you trying to tell us?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> AKA Carter 3-way.


Pretty cool.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Aegis said:


> Speak clearly, what are you trying to tell us?


 
He is trying to tell everyone that what is refered to as a "DEAD END THREE WAY" is ALLOWED and LEGAL as far as the NEC is concerend and he is correct. 

Roger


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Roger said:


> He is trying to tell everyone that what is refered to as a "DEAD END THREE WAY" is ALLOWED and LEGAL as far as the NEC is concerend and he is correct.
> 
> Roger


Not according to 2011 though, right?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> Not according to 2011 though, right?


No.

The 2011 NEC *DOES NOT* disallow dead-end three-ways.

Dead-end 3-ways *ARE LEGAL UNDER THE 2011 NEC*.

The 2011 NEC *HAS NOT* made dead-end 3-ways illegal.

Dead-end 3-ways *ARE LEGAL* in the 2011.

If you wire to the 2011 NEC, dead-end three-ways *are legal and allowed*.

Wiring dead-end three-ways under the 2011 *is acceptable*.

Dead-end three-ways *are not addressed* by the 2011 NEC.



How many ways & times do I need to repeat this?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

I'm reading 404.2(c) exceptions 1&2 and I don't see how your position Is correct. Am I reading it wrong?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No.
> 
> The 2011 NEC *DOES NOT* disallow dead-end three-ways.
> 
> ...


So long as there's still a neutral in the box? Or is that a load of BS?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> I'm reading 404.2(c) exceptions 1&2 and I don't see how your position Is correct. Am I reading it wrong?


Where in 404.2(C) are three-ways disallowed? Where are they even _mentioned?_ How can 404.2(C) disallow something it never mentions?

The exception refers to a grounded conductor, no mention of 3-ways at all.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Where in 404.2(C) are three-ways disallowed? Where are they even mentioned? How can 404.2(C) disallow something it never mentions?


It says "switches controlling lighting load.". A 3-way is a switch, that controls a lighting load. It doesn't disallow 3-ways, it disallows a dead end 3-way by required a grounded conductor in the switch enclosure. Which means you'd either have to run a 12 or 14/4, or run a separate x/2 to get the neutral there. What. Am saying is it looks like it disallows having a x/3 run to a 3-way with the red and black as travelers and the white as the common (or any combination of the three.). The intent of the requirement makes it make sense, because most timers and OS's have a neutral, and people have been using the grounding conductor for that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> It says "switches controlling lighting load.". A 3-way is a switch, that controls a lighting load.


So are 4-ways and single poles. Are they illegal too?

OK, so where does it say you can't install a dead-end 3-way?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> ........ Which means you'd either have to run a 12 or 14/4, or run a separate x/2 to get the neutral there. What. Am saying is it looks like it disallows having a x/3 run to a 3-way with the red and black as travelers and the white as the common (or any combination of the three.). The intent of the requirement makes it make sense, because most timers and OS's have a neutral, and people have been using the grounding conductor for that.


Bingo. It disallows an existing wiring method, not 'dead-end' 3-ways. Run 14/4 to your dead-end 3-way and you're golden.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

So would a dead end three way require a neutral in the junction box?

Nevermind, looks like Ken answered it. It does.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> So would a dead end three way require a neutral in the junction box?


That's the entire intent of 404.2(C).


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> So would a dead end three way require a neutral in the junction box?
> 
> Nevermind, looks like Ken answered it. It does.


Only using cable wiring methods, or where the box will be inaccessible in the future.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So are 4-ways and single poles. Are they illegal too?
> 
> OK, so where does it say you can't install a dead-end 3-way.


Ok. So, you DO have to run a neutral to every switch, so no more x/3 to a three way or (2) x/2 to a four way.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Neutral required at switch location.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

480sparky said:


> AKA Carter 3-way.


 
What program are you using 480sparky, to draw these schematics ?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> What program are you using 480sparky, to draw these schematics ?


I think it might be Photoshop. :whistling2:


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Only using cable wiring methods, or where the box will be inaccessible in the future.


You can use cable assemblies, if the wall or cavity is open at the top or unfinished on one side. 
Exception number two:
_(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side_


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> You can use cable assemblies, if the wall or cavity is open at the top or unfinished on one side.
> Exception number two:
> _(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side_


Yeah, thanks. I was going from memory when I posted that, so I knew something about it would be wrong. :laughing:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> I think it might be Photoshop. :whistling2:


Your joking ? I don't use photoshop. 

This would be handy for questions about control circuits.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> Your joking ? I don't use photoshop.


Yeah, it's a long running joke with 480sparky. Just like scotchkote, Carlon boxes, and maps for buried boxes.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, thanks. I was going from memory when I posted that, so I knew something about it would be wrong. :laughing:


Hey, you got me to pull out my codebook, so thanks.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Opps, After reading through this, I have been dead ending three and four-way wrong every time. Cant figure out why this is the first time I have heard of this.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

.......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dronai said:


> What program are you using 480sparky, to draw these schematics ?



If memory serves, Microsoft Paint.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> Hey, you got me to pull out my codebook, so thanks.


*Charlie's Rule.*

It doesn’t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. And if by chance you are its author, it doesn’t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don’t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Voltech said:


> Opps, After reading through this, I have been dead ending three and four-way wrong every time. Cant figure out why this is the first time I have heard of this.


If you mean the neutral at the switch, this is new to 2011 NEC. We adopt it 8-1-2011 here. So unless you file online, you have to be using it already because the state takes so long to process the REIs(Request for Electrical Inspection).


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## acelectric44 (Jul 3, 2012)

I believe the "california" 3-way, I've always heard of it as hot bus 3-way, but anyways it was used for things such as barns. If you were a do it yourself farmer (or whatever) and short on cash etc you could run a 3 wire from your house to barn (or wherever) so then as you can see in 480sparky's drawing you can switch a light from both locations, but always have a hot receptacle. Which in my mind is genious! Just have to watch out for the occassional hot screwshell!!


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