# Rusted bottom in an enclosure



## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

Tell me what you see here and let's please keep this discussion on track. :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Looks like your jbox has no bottom. It needs to be replaced. Thats it.

~Matt


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't see any NEC issue.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Question is - How far back does the verbiage in 110.3(A) go back? Looking at 110.3(A) in it's entirety, would suggest that perhaps the wrong box was installed from the very start. Not saying that the inspector, or the electrician who did the original job were wrong at the time (or that perhaps the weep hole got covered up) Perhaps that is why we are seeing 110.20 beeing upgraded in the code cycles?

Reasons to justify change (beyond the obvious) in a legal sense maybe 314.15, or 300.6 in it's entirety.

Not a hard box to change (at least it looks reasonably simple) is there any argument from the owner?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> Reasons to justify change (beyond the obvious) in a legal sense maybe 314.15, or 300.6 in it's entirety.


The NEC is not a maintenance code.



> 90.2 Scope.
> (A) Covered. This Code covers *the installation of* electrical
> conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and........



However there are OSHA standards that could be applied if this is a work place.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

See 110.14(A) and the 2011 Massachusetts revision to 314.15


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

What is the NEC reg that says "It's all about the money?" 

I don't see it as a NEC issue now, it's about liability and safety, and a different set of rules to make changes required. Quite obvious this is past the one year typical parts warranty.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I see that the wires were not trained when installed. I also see the rust run on the back of the can. I would think that there is a stub in from outside and that is were the water intrusion came from. We have a few of them here. The stub in should be repiped and sealed an the source of water corrected. 
Change the box only because it is unserviceable.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> What is the NEC reg that says "It's all about the money?"
> 
> I don't see it as a NEC issue now, it's about liability and safety, and a different set of rules to make changes required. Quite obvious this is past the one year typical parts warranty.


The title of the video is "2011 NEC" therefore I am answering about the code. 

I also made note that there are OSHA standards that could be used to force this to be repaired if it is in a workplace.



> 1910.303(b)(7)(iv)
> 
> There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment, such as parts that are broken, bent, cut, or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.


And OSHA can walk in and enforce that, or more specifically they can fine an employer for violation the above rule at any time.

I am not against fixing what is broken, I am fully against stretching the NEC into places it does not apply to.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I believe that the real issue is the conduit which was never sealed properly, probably not at all. This depending on the age of the install, would be a code issue. 230.8, 300.5(G). 

I Don't have the 2011 yet. The weep hole could have been there originally, and you wouldn't even know it if it had become clogged by debris from this conduit. 

As BBQ pointed out, this was not installed on the 2011 code, so that code is not in question here. Only on the replacement.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*From the 2011 National Electrical Code*

*From the 2011 National Electrical Code*

*110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.* Electrical equipment
shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.

Informational Note: Accepted industry practices are described
in ANSI/NECA 1-2006, Standard Practices for
Good Workmanship in Electrical Contracting, and other
ANSI-approved installation standards.

My note: This NECA Publication is a great source for those who are interested in good workmanship. It may have been updated. Also, are there any electrical inspectors here who make inspections of electrical systems using the NEC as their guide? 

*(B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.*
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars,
wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be
damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as
paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.
*There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect
safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment
such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by
corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.*


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Like this one?













There's your QO panel Double oh7,,,,was it worth the extra money?


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Yes Joe, but as an electrician doing the install, I read that *Bold* portion to mean the material at time of install. This wording suggests that possibly used materials may be put into service and re-used, thence the need for guidelines on the condition.

*If* we grant that this section does mean forever, then who's responsibility would it be to keep it that way? I don't see how it could be the installer as this would be a maintenance issue.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Joe Tedesco said:


> *From the 2011 National Electrical Code*
> 
> *110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.* Electrical equipment
> shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
> ...



Joe, is there some part of 90.2 that you need help understanding? 

I agree with John that at the time of the install there may have been a violation. At this point in time there is little to nothing an electrical inspector could legally do about it.


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Yes Joe, but as an electrician doing the install, I read that *Bold* portion to mean the material at time of install. This wording suggests that possibly used materials may be put into service and re-used, thence the need for guidelines on the condition.
> 
> *If* we grant that this section does mean forever, then who's responsibility would it be to keep it that way? I don't see how it could be the installer as this would be a maintenance issue.


Sir: The rule that is identified in my bold above has been in the NEC for a few editions already. My 2011 references in my video clips are so people will see that link when searching for information on YOUTUBE. I like to them to show up where other people and trainers have posted many videos covering the NEC and how to use and understand it. I even saw a one hour clip teaching us how to use the code to pass tests. :laughing:

It is true that the NEC is not retroactive, unless so identified when the term "existing" is considered. I found 88 places where that term is used, and some do apply in conditions that are now covered. If I made an electrical inspection in an existing property and it had equipment that looked like the one above I would call it to the attention of the owner. I do believe, however, that the initial survey by the EC should call this to the attention of the owner.

What does this section mean?

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is
the practical safeguarding of persons and property from
hazards arising from the use of electricity.

My opinions are personal and should not be considered as official interpretations. :thumbup:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

So I'm not fully understanding the point here. It's an NEC video about something that has nothing to do with the NEC, is that correct?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

2011 Massachusetts Electrical Code..

*314.15. *Revise this section by inserting the following sentence between the first and second sentences of the NEC text: "Drainage openings not larger than 6 mm (¼ in.) shall be permitted to be installed in the field." 

*2011 NEC.

314.15 Damp or Wet Locations.​*​​​​In damp or wet locations,
boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or
equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating​
within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes,

conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall
be listed for use in wet locations.​Informational Note No. 1: For boxes in floors, see
314.27(B).
Informational Note No. 2: For protection against corrosion,
see 300.6.​* 
*


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Joe,
It really looks like drainage will not be an issue for that enclosure. It looks like an above ground Brooks Box. :thumbsup:
I see no exposed live parts inside.
I think it would be quite a stretch to blame this on the lack of a weep hole.
We see enclosures like this that are rusted out due to the air exchange between the house and the outside air traveling through the conduit.

I don't know what the conditions are there but I can usually find the exact enclosure, on the exact street with one rusted out like that and one in perfect condition. 
I don't think I have ever considered drilling a drain hole in an enclosure.


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## fiddler (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't know about the areas most of you guys are working in, but a lot of the local municipalities in my area are requiring U&0's for resale. I've been getting a lot of calls for inspections on wxisting services that we're never inspected initially. Also the poco's have been requiring new inspection on any service that has been turned off for more then 6 mths. Taht one would be a fail.


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## kf5aeo (Dec 4, 2011)

bottomless panels are very common where i work. you are lucky if the door doesnt either a:fall off the hinges when opened or b: disentigrate compleatly when touched.

H2S does bad things to pump panels


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## 636Sparky (Jun 24, 2011)

Yeah, it turns copper all kind of cool colors!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Good thing they sprayed foam in there to keep the water out. From now on anyway.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect
safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment
such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by
corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.*


impossible to install _every single_ electrical item to imho

even nema3r equipment has drain holes for condensation

but hey, if the powers that be wish to cite the _weather_ , let 'em have at it

~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kf5aeo said:


> bottomless panels are very common where i work. you are lucky if the door doesnt either a:fall off the hinges when opened or b: disentigrate compleatly when touched.
> 
> H2S does bad things to pump panels


 

Then why don't they use stainless?


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