# What to do with our aging workers



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

TGGT said:


> In our drive for efficiency and profit I find that our older workers are becoming a burden. We are in an environment that is hostile towards older JIW'S that are limited physically and aren't proficient with technology.
> 
> I've had a guy that despite having an ipad for several months still manages to get logged out, or gets lost trying to load up relevant prints, he has health limitations that prevent him from safely stressing his shoulders. I've seen him put up lots of pipe, but he was in pain doing it.
> 
> ...




Ask their children what they think should happen to their parents.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> In our drive for efficiency and profit I find that our older workers are becoming a burden. We are in an environment that is hostile towards older JIW'S that are limited physically and aren't proficient with technology.
> 
> I've had a guy that despite having an ipad for several months still manages to get logged out, or gets lost trying to load up relevant prints, he has health limitations that prevent him from safely stressing his shoulders. I've seen him put up lots of pipe, but he was in pain doing it.
> 
> ...


I believe that people are responsible for themselves. 

The trade as a whole doesn't owe them anything, nor do the customers. It is their responsibility to excel to a point in which they don't need to do manual labor anymore. If they can't get to that point, then a change of career is in order. 

It's no one else's fault if they can't figure out how to use an iPad. Have they gone to Apple and taken the classes that they offer? Probably not. It's always excuses. 

There are a lot of positions in which an older and slower guy will do a better job due to his experience and wisdom. But when it comes to pure labor, I can't see putting an old guy in a task that he will be slow at just to keep him working. That's not a viable option anywhere in the real world, that only happens in the union, and it's one of the reasons why unions will be gone.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Our industry is a physically demanding one, but some aspects are far more demanding than others. The right guy (or gal) for the right job.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

You know what's funny? Young kids come in here daily seeking advice from older guys........ 


From now on maybe I'll just let the little brat's cook in their own stew..........


Or maybe not... After all , this is just one guy asking what to do with the old farts in his workplace. 



Hello's forum, I'm new here and was wondering how could I find a job as an electrician when I get out of high school? Perhaps I should just stay at home and try to make it with my mom.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Do you have any sort of supplemental pension? If not maybe try and get one started. The young guys today looking at their future (the old Journeymen) may realize that they don't want to, or be able to, work themselves to 65. I know a lot of guys that always said the were going to try and get out at 55. Very few probably did. The trade is not easy on us. You never know which ones will be able to make it to 65. 



We have a supplemental pension that you can take at 55. It basically will pay your medical and a little more until you eligible for Medicare. At that point you can find some other work (not electrical except for teaching or inspecting), or work up to 1,000 hours out of the hall. At 65 you can take you regular pension without penalties, or lose 2% a year for each year you take the normal pension early. 



For the amount of guys I know that work till 62 year round, I know that many that only work six to ten months and don't take their supplemental pension. they are set in their lives that they can make it on half their salary and would rather not work in the extreme temperatures. I'm not sure, but if you take your supplemental and work your 1,000 hours, it may not count as a pension credit towards your normal pension?


There are some that completely let themselves go due to lifestyle choices. They are on their own to stay employable. As cruel as it may sound, they are not your problem. If they can't cut it they need to get out and take their supplemental pension. I know plenty of guys that were as fit a a fiddle and were very productive till they retired at 65.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I should probably add that the job I was on all summer, I was the youngest at soon to be 53. the three others were between 58 and 60. We made the dead line and did it under hours. The job was figured for another journeyman and apprentice. We never had an apprentice.


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## Fist of lightning (Aug 15, 2019)

As far as what happens in the local that I’m in when guys get close to retirement and their body’s can’t do the strenuous labor as the young Guys anymore .

Usually the guys ready for retirement get sent to the plants , schools , or buildings the hall contractors have Maintance work at they they end up replacing ballast and light bulbs outlets etc .

I like to see this Bc it’s a great option to keep the older guys busy without having them be a burden, and no one wants to see the older guys get thrown away like trash once they can’t do manual labor ,.

I’ve seen also on a lot of jobs the Forman will know how to place guys to perform tasks based on their ability and physical capability’s.

The muscle heads usual do the heavy work , 

The older guys will be laying out boxes ,windows , switches , conduit runs , on plans or on floor with spray paint . 

Or doing lite pipe work , wiring fixtures , etc 

Me personally I like how in the union we take care of the guys ready to retire by giving them the easier work not having them get hurt they earned it , and when the younger guys get older they will appreciate it aswell.

But the best reward will be that all that hard work wasn’t a waste and will be able to retire with annuity. io pension, local pension,


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

Yeah there's a lot to be said for efficiency, I worked a crew up at Suncor for the 424 when they started manning up "froth" for a project. Our crew was stacked! Me and my buddy at 25ish were the youngest Jmen by far everyone else 45+ We sat at a lunch table that would become two foreman and a GF. (And QAQC if you count lucky me). 

We were cable crew, maybe 30 guys 2 other cable crews on site at that point (grew to 250 electricians). I think we were a 6/7 man crew, learned a lot from those guys. We outpulled two other 10ish man crews, we didn't work too hard, just smart and together. 

Then we got this kid, a pipefitter instrument guy, very enthusiastic. So enthusiastic that he didn't pull in rhythm, we tried to get him on board for a week, it was stupid and frustrating... next week he got stuck with me on point pulling about 60' maybe 80' up to the level from the ground. Probably copper, snowing both ways, on ice, uphill.. You know the story... tried to show him how to do it, but he was still Tammy. Haha I mean rammy. After coffee I put him on point and I anchored, I let him have all the weight, let him do that after lunch too.. By last coffee his arms were ready to fall off and I approached the subject again "do you think you can do this all week?" "Ready to work as a team? It's easy, one - two - three - pull". 

Yes off topic but just want to reiterate the skills these guys bring to the job, my body's busting down at 42, I need to work as smart as I can. I advocate " lie down" breaks, like if you're working in a crawl space or hunched doing outlets, a minute of flat stretching every now and then can be the difference between working tomorrow or being too messed up. 

Its scary out there, I learned from guys with 30-40+ years of experience and I don't see them around anymore. Me and my buddies with 20 yrs on the tools are old timers. 

We gotta take care of these guys when we can, I would never assume they are any better financially then I am, just less time on the clock to keep making it. Unfortunately I also don't assume they are all "wise", scabby guys tend to stay scabby. Union pension is great but they/we need to stay up on technology and try to make sure we aren't phased out. There's not a lot of jobs for us that are easy. 

I play the lottery every week...


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## Fist of lightning (Aug 15, 2019)

FishinElectrcian said:


> Yeah there's a lot to be said for efficiency, I worked a crew up at Suncor for the 424 when they started manning up "froth" for a project. Our crew was stacked! Me and my buddy at 25ish were the youngest Jmen by far everyone else 45+ We sat at a lunch table that would become two foreman and a GF. (And QAQC if you count lucky me).
> 
> We were cable crew, maybe 30 guys 2 other cable crews on site at that point (grew to 250 electricians). I think we were a 6/7 man crew, learned a lot from those guys. We outpulled two other 10ish man crews, we didn't work too hard, just smart and together.
> 
> ...


Great story I could actually picture what you wrote in my head and I’ve seen it befor .

I’m 32 and feel my body from being in the trades since 18, knees back etc 

I do a lot of the small things to help keep my body from being abused .

I’ll get a pad to kneel on when doing outlets so I don’t fck up knees on concrete, or a rag etc 

Go slow coming down on the scissor lift so I don’t rattle my back to bad . I don’t jump off the lift I use the rungs lol .

During wire pulls I deff don’t try and be a hero we pull as a team .

Stretching , eating properly , proper rest ,


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Im 59. I would consider myself to be completely unemployable in the field. I saw this coming over ten years ago and decided to begin hiring other people and start contracting full time to make enough money.
Before then, I contracted part time and made a decent living.
I have a few jobs that I have to run by being on site at least 1/2 a day and that’s about it. The rest of my time is spent estimating and paperwork.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

The best thing for ageing electricians is to get into contracting, estimating, project management, teaching etc. Problem is there are many that never required the skills to do those things, they were simply electrical labourers their whole career and don’t know anything else. In the near future there will be many of these types who will not be able to work on the tools, more and more every year. If they are lucky they will land jobs at Home Depot or fast food joints.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

TGGT said:


> What to do with our aging workers


A modest proposal: Soylent Green. 

It's a really difficult problem. The idea that everyone's going to become a boss for the last ten years of their 40 year career is not realistic. 

It was easy back in the old days, 100+ years ago. People had the sense to die before it became an issue. Maybe the thing to do would be encourage journeymen over 40 to smoke cigarettes so they don't hang around so long in their burden years. 

In the boom years when the American economy was expanding endlessly there was so much wealth being generated we could just overpay people past their prime, chalk it up to something they earned when they were young, and it all worked out. Now, the world is looking to trim that kind of fat. 

The technology related difficulties are IMO totally solvable. The problem is that continuing education is a farce. Continuing education has not kept up with the times. If it's important to teach the noobs Ohm's law, it's also important to teach the old dogs how to use an iPad. 

Some will wear out their bodies on the job before the job has paid them enough to retire. I think this is a failure of shared risk. If you get hurt bad enough you go on disability and you're on permanent vacation, your troubles are over, but if you get just beat up enough you're no longer efficient, you're just dead weight and again fat they're going to want to trim. Seems like that could be solved too, but it would cost. 

It's coming after people outside the trades too, make no mistake, when you're not the hard charger you once were, they're looking to put you out to pasture. If you planned your life on ever increasing earning, it's going to be painful. 

I have seen lots of places this has been solved by culture: the younger just help out the older, beater, without being dickheads about it, because they know they'll be old and beat someday too. That was the old way.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

The two items I had going against me was ibew and St. Louis County government. As we speak, the state of Missouri is developing a process of a "state" license to do away with the lock that heritage ibew contractors had for so long. Even local-1 president is against his own jw getting their license and starting their own business. Can include St. Louis Cit-ay, but I have no interest in doing business here at all, always turn those customers away.
What I did not anticipate was the devastation OBAMA CARE would be to me. My health care cost went from under $20,000.oo a year in 2009 to over $100,000.oo a year by 2011. Since then it drifted up to $140,000.oo a year since. Now how am I suppose to get a policy for that? I will have to continue to work for a big box, such as the airport until my 66th birthday for Medicare. It's an easy job but the people suck, including having main residency in the cit-ay. I'd like to leave, but will need a health care policy to cover existing chemo. One of the NON ibew contractors doing work here is interested, but I'm not 25 or even 45 years old anymore. Lots of choices nowadays, but I have to limit myself because of my arthritis.
Any body or organization that supported obama/democraps in 2008 can drop dexd. You have no idea how much a game changer 2009/2010 where for those of us using certain target types of chemo. And what does the government do with all those taxes collected on those meds? Give it out to free loaders who never paid into the system.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Pussies. I pulled a 14 yesterday. Woke up a teeny bit stiff. 
Most people look at my face and tell me I look 45. They are shocked when I tell em it will be 65 next time. Whoop whoop. And now if you will excuse me, I am off to hike up Koko Head.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Pussies. I pulled a 14 yesterday. Woke up a teeny bit stiff.
> Most people look at my face and tell me I look 45. They are shocked when I tell em it will be 65 next time. Whoop whoop. And now if you will excuse me, I am off to hike up Koko Head.


Right there with you brother.

My cousin keeps calling me to help with rush jobs he has all over the eastern seaboard. Most of the crew is old farts and the rest a couple youngins.

It always gets done under time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HertzHound said:


> I should probably add that the job I was on all summer, I was the youngest at soon to be 53. the three others were between 58 and 60. We made the deadline and did it under hours. The job was figured for another journeyman and apprentice. We never had an apprentice.


I'll be 67 in 20 days, pulled a 30 hour day last week with an in the 30's crew and carried my own, carried the pack and directed the entire project while running up the road 80 miles and back to test a 100 lb circuit breaker manhandling it by myself in the shop and getting back to the job at midnight having to motivate the crew to keep moving. And we were short two men.

But SO FAR my genes have been good to me, I see many in the 50's that eat wrong, drink (alcohol) and smoke and then moan about getting old. These habits just exacerbate the aging process I THINK? Sort of the sins of our youth become the burden of aging.

Yeah, I am a hero (IN MY MIND).

Saw The Who last night and Roger was moving and dancing across the stage at 75 for 2-1/2 hours.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I do not go to union meeting for obvious reasons (Owner), but when I did and I am told it is no different now, there is a split with what to do with future retirement money the younger members usually go for what would benefit members, in the long run, no matter the old dudes and the old guys go for what would benefit them. Pretty typical for most people vote what benefits them.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I drink still, have aches and pains, but still get up and work the tools. Actually, the more active I am, the less I hurt, though rest doesn't hurt either. I'll probably be working at The Who's age because I'm know I won't have enough to probably stop work entirely, plus I'd probably lose my mind. I'd rather be busy, just dial it back. I'm not comfortable with running people, though down the road maybe if I found the right ones.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I drink still, have aches and pains, but still get up and work the tools. Actually, the more active I am, the less I hurt, though rest doesn't hurt either. I'll probably be working at The Who's age because I'm know I won't have enough to probably stop work entirely, plus I'd probably lose my mind. I'd rather be busy, just dial it back. *I'm not comfortable with running people, though down the road maybe if I found the right ones.*


You're on to something here, trust me, I know what I'm talking about. Change your attitude about this from "maybe if I find the right ones" to "I will find the right ones" and you'll see things start to come together. :smile:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I borrow others who already have their own business and will let them run the show when I’ve needed help for larger jobs. I recognized they were better at that than I was. I have my skill set and get borrowed to fill that role so it works out well. Have a new truck with a lift coming so that’ll help with lifting heavy stuff. The statement that good people are hard to find is true. Not to say I couldn’t develop some. I don’t have as dim a view about the younger generation as some do, as I see some of that in myself from that age. I remain optimistic.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Is it really only age? 50 or even 60 isn’t old for an experienced worker with a clear mind. If his body is a little beat up, that’s what apprentices are for, to do the grunt work.

I hate to say it but I see too many older workers who are unfit emotionally and mentally through drug abuse, alcoholism and just not being in a healthy state of mind. Sure, a young person can be a user and have personal problems but he can still perform at work.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

99cents said:


> Is it really only age? 50 or even 60 isn’t old for an experienced worker with a clear mind. If his body is a little beat up, that’s what apprentices are for, to do the grunt work.
> 
> I hate to say it but I see too many older workers who are *unfit emotionally and mentally through drug abuse, alcoholism and just not being in a healthy state of mind*. Sure, a young person can be a user and have personal problems but he can still perform at work.


Spot on with this observation. Despite all the arthritis I have, healthy diet and conservative choices make a difference. If I did the full caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, pills 5-6 days a week I'd be finished. Use these items in moderation and you'll last a lot longer. Also, keeping that weight under control. When you bend a step on a 350lb rated ladder, it's time to go on a diet. Here at the Airport, we've had guys that weighed 300+ pounds and one who tipped the scale over 400. They also break the seats in the trucks too


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

stiffneck said:


> The two items I had going against me was ibew and St. Louis County government. As we speak, the state of Missouri is developing a process of a "state" license to do away with the lock that heritage ibew contractors had for so long. Even local-1 president is against his own jw getting their license and starting their own business. Can include St. Louis Cit-ay, but I have no interest in doing business here at all, always turn those customers away.
> What I did not anticipate was the devastation OBAMA CARE would be to me. My health care cost went from under $20,000.oo a year in 2009 to over $100,000.oo a year by 2011. Since then it drifted up to $140,000.oo a year since. Now how am I suppose to get a policy for that? I will have to continue to work for a big box, such as the airport until my 66th birthday for Medicare. It's an easy job but the people suck, including having main residency in the cit-ay. I'd like to leave, but will need a health care policy to cover existing chemo. One of the NON ibew contractors doing work here is interested, but I'm not 25 or even 45 years old anymore. Lots of choices nowadays, but I have to limit myself because of my arthritis.
> Any body or organization that supported obama/democraps in 2008 can drop dexd. You have no idea how much a game changer 2009/2010 where for those of us using certain target types of chemo. And what does the government do with all those taxes collected on those meds? Give it out to free loaders who never paid into the system.


How did the 100k to 140k per year insurance come about? 
:sad:


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

You want to know what to do with the "old guy's"? Honor them, respect them, learn from them, and in some cases get the "F" out of our way. I refuse to grow up, and have been sticking to that plan. I keep up with the youngsters just fine, and usually I'm the one waiting on them to catch up. Most old timers work with their heads, not their backs. And more often than not, the youngsters appreciate being shown the "easy way" as opposed to their way. Maybe I've been blessed to be lacking in the ailments effecting the majority of the "elderly", or maybe it's mind over matter, either way, I do what I gotta, and haven't had any complaints yet.
Peace.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Who is going to teach the young guys and gals?
Who is going to show the young guys how to really work!!
Who is going to answer that question that only come with experience.
On and On and On.

Just because some old guys ride the system most are the leaders.

Cowboy


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## Fist of lightning (Aug 15, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> Who is going to teach the young guys and gals?
> Who is going to show the young guys how to really work!!
> Who is going to answer that question that only come with experience.
> On and On and On.
> ...


Absolutely right that one time we’re the older guy catches something that should be done a diff way and it safes everybody time or material is deff worth it . And they usually are the best leaders and mentors.

A lot of us would not have the skill sets we do if it wasn’t for the old timers taking the time to teach us those tricks you never seen befor but come in so dame handy


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

I think this is a good time to invest in the Soylent Green industry.


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## John R (Aug 20, 2019)

*John R retired electrician from Fed Gov*



brian john said:


> I'll be 67 in 20 days, pulled a 30 hour day last week with an in the 30's crew and carried my own, carried the pack and directed the entire project while running up the road 80 miles and back to test a 100 lb circuit breaker manhandling it by myself in the shop and getting back to the job at midnight having to motivate the crew to keep moving. And we were short two men.
> 
> But SO FAR my genes have been good to me, I see many in the 50's that eat wrong, drink (alcohol) and smoke and then moan about getting old. These habits just exacerbate the aging process I THINK? Sort of the sins of our youth become the burden of aging.
> 
> ...


 I came out of the military in 1958 with over a year of school and 3 years working as a electrician on a Air Force Base. Went to the local hall and they said if would have to attend their school. That did't work for me. Go a job with a no union and worked for them for 17 years. The last 5 years plus was in the Caribbean. Was in business for 13 years and then 17 years for the Fed Gov. I am now 84 and still work about 4 hours a day, doing repair on auto equipment, (water plants,sewer, lift station etc. I also do repair for a local co that builds underground mine equipment.I do not work because of money but because I can not set in the house and my doctors tell me if I like what I do it is the best thing to keep doing it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I miss how SlickVic used to reply to older electricians on forums. Those were classic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I miss how SlickVic used to reply to older electricians on forums. Those were classic.


I don't remember.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Well, I guess the rest of you candy asses can just pipe down now. In fact I think I am going to pipe down. 

@John R - WELL DONE MAN! 



John R said:


> I came out of the military in 1958 with over a year of school and 3 years working as a electrician on a Air Force Base. Went to the local hall and they said if would have to attend their school. That did't work for me. Go a job with a no union and worked for them for 17 years. The last 5 years plus was in the Caribbean. Was in business for 13 years and then 17 years for the Fed Gov. I am now 84 and still work about 4 hours a day, doing repair on auto equipment, (water plants,sewer, lift station etc. I also do repair for a local co that builds underground mine equipment.I do not work because of money but because I can not set in the house and my doctors tell me if I like what I do it is the best thing to keep doing it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't remember.



Probably cause you were way younger. He used to rant about old guys on his job site. Hated them.... :vs_laugh:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Probably cause you were way younger. He used to rant about old guys on his job site. Hated them.... :vs_laugh:


Now he's too good for us, him in his designer suits and $200K/year BA salary :sad:


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Now he's too good for us, him in his designer suits and $200K/year BA salary :sad:


Is that what happened to him?


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> How did the 100k to 140k per year insurance come about?
> :sad:


 The "Affordable Health Care Act of 2009".
There was a time when you could google the information. It's somewhere in the 4,400 page document. Today, IMO you would have to go to some Federal document office and pay for a copy of 4,400 pages, then find it. Health care cost is a land mine that can screw anyone, no matter how prepared for the future/retirement you are. And NO I'm not for "Universal Health Care" or "Government run health care". These programs allow people who never paid into the system "freebies" that we have to pay for. Only those who pay in should be eligible.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

pfft....I have 8 guys from 50-65....they are my best workers.

a bum is a bum age doesn't matter


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## John R (Aug 20, 2019)

*John R retired electrician from Fed Gov*



stiffneck said:


> The "Affordable Health Care Act of 2009".
> There was a time when you could google the information. It's somewhere in the 4,400 page document. Today, IMO you would have to go to some Federal document office and pay for a copy of 4,400 pages, then find it. Health care cost is a land mine that can screw anyone, no matter how prepared for the future/retirement you are. And NO I'm not for "Universal Health Care" or "Government run health care". These programs allow people who never paid into the system "freebies" that we have to pay for. Only those who pay in should be eligible.


 I agree, that was reason I went to work for the Fed God was for health care. It really has paid off for me and my wife. Hope you have good health care.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

brian john said:


> I'll be 67 in 20 days, pulled a 30 hour day last week with an in the 30's crew and carried my own, carried the pack and directed the entire project while running up the road 80 miles and back to test a 100 lb circuit breaker manhandling it by myself in the shop and getting back to the job at midnight having to motivate the crew to keep moving. And we were short two men.
> 
> But SO FAR my genes have been good to me, I see many in the 50's that eat wrong, drink (alcohol) and smoke and then moan about getting old. These habits just exacerbate the aging process I THINK? Sort of the sins of our youth become the burden of aging.
> 
> ...


Went to the Who at Fenway Park Friday night. Roger and Pete were awesome. Some Old Guys still got it

LOOOVED the violin player, the crowd went ape**** when she came out on the stage at the end of Baba Orielly (about 4:00) 
this is not my video, I was to the left of the stage.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

When I was coming up I got paired with one of those grouchy old men. He taught me a lot. Working with some of the other electricians I have, I realize the favor he did me by actively taking an interest in teaching me, rather than just using me as a helper. So, at least for some of the old timers, pair them up with a sharp apprentice. Gotta keep that knowledge moving to new generations.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I first got into the trade in a shop with one older guy, my father, and about a dozen younger guys. The great benefit us that I didn't know any better than to work extremely efficient, work within the constraints of the weather, how to handle materials to an absolute minimum and to spend time planning every inch of the task before starting. 
I didn't know a scrap pipe pile was a thing until we were moved to a job with the other guys. We didn't have an extra nut or bolt to get rid of at the end of a job. Certainly no pipe, wire or fittings. 
All younger guys and what a grabass that was. They were always playing, on breaks, making mistakes, wasting materials, moving pipe back and forth. Friggin disaster. Hopeless.

One thing is that you have to be super-efficient and crazy disciplined when you get old. I was just at a Jobsite receiving 100s of feet of small EMT bundles. It started out with the pipe and unistrut going flat on the ground. 
F- that. I had it all leaning against a nearby Conex box and chain ganged it into the building in just a few minutes.
They would have it outside of the building in a pipe pile and brought it in one at a time when they ran out.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> I first got into the trade in a shop with one older guy, my father, and about a dozen younger guys. The great benefit us that I didn't know any better than to work extremely efficient, work within the constraints of the weather, how to handle materials to an absolute minimum and to spend time planning every inch of the task before starting.



This. He always told me that the easiest part of a job should be execution. He took the time to show me things I thought I already knew, like how to use a drill or how to properly strip a wire, how to use a screw driver, how to select appropriate threads, how all that jazz worked. Now, he had been a smoker for like 40 years and his lungs were feeling it. He would often get winded or need a break. I had no problem being patient with him and carrying heavy stuff, doing the grunt part of the job, because it didn't wear me out at all to do it. As a bonus, he also inspired me to quit smoking. I don't want to be breathing like that when I'm his age.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I havent given a thought about teaching someone how to use or carry tools. Now that I think about it, there is a bit of science on how to stand facing your work when using a hacksaw. I just thought people would get the hang of it.
I also found that moving into a work area and taking care of some housekeeping such as clearing floor space and even sweeping the floor increases productivity a bit.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

I remember being a new worker, working beside this old guy who pointed out how often I went up and down my ladder to get material and tools while he only went up once. Work smarter, not harder


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

That is kind of the point I'm getting at here. It is profitable for any company to not spend so much money letting the people doing the work re-learn the same lessons and the same ways to think. Hell, some may not ever learn it unless explicitly told. I've had to go through and explain to people why we should not just carry armfuls of junk into apartments during trim. Why we should carry mass switches and receptacles, but count out three-way switches, fixtures, etc and get them from storage on a per unit basis, as we are leaving our raises in units for the sheetrockers to get new bathroom light fixtures in their houses.


One day I picked up over 1k worth of materials laying in units that were supposed to be done and also incomplete. I feel it should be addressed first and foremost as a training issue. After training, it becomes disciplinary because it is either laziness or stupidity. You can't think at all, you get to carry heavy ****. That is just how it is.


Anyway, not every old-timer is worth a **** as a trainer. Some old-timers never learned to do the thinking. It is unfortunate for them once they can no longer carry heavy ****. Hopefully they can find cushy maintenance gigs like you all mentioned. Personally, I want to hang up my tools by the time I'm 45, and I'll be able to do electrical engineering work just about as long as my mind stays sharp.


I guess the main point here is that by using the generation on their way out to get the new generation up-to-snuff, you are investing in the future of your business. Provided you aren't treating your people like ****, and you can provide a path to retirement, many will be happy to stay, and that field-time both keeps the heavy lifting off of your old-timers, and gets your newbies up to speed light-years ahead of where they would otherwise be. Even if they don't understand it all right away, they will start learning how to think. How to approach the problems, and how to solve them.


I remember being told once to "Never again call him to help me until I have opened up the mother ****ing conduits and trace out the ****ing circuit. It was just a dock door with two limit switches and a couple valves. You can't just give up and call me when I'm not around. You gotta open the mother ****er up and figure out how it works." Rough, but fair. He then proceeded to grab a metal pole and slap one of the limit switches that had over-traveled and gotten stuck on the door somehow and it started working. That confidence and way of thinking has to be developed.


So I guess it can really be summed up by what kind of business you want to run. If you see people as nothing more than utility like the OP here, as human capital, you are going to have a high turnover rate and going to get the bottom of the barrel. If you realize that your employees want to earn a living, too, and just want a clean path to retirement, then you can capitalize on that and keep that knowledge flowing between generations, which means that your apprentices are going to start producing a positive value for your business in half the time. Sure, everyone won't stick around, and you might get burned sometimes, but you gotta look past that emotion and look at the situation microscopically and determine if your net gains are positive.


Anyway, that is my take on the old timers that are approaching the end of their careers.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

sparkiez said:


> microscopically and determine if your net gains are positive.



I meant this to be macroscopically, and can't edit.


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