# GFI's in commercial kitchen



## Mouser (May 4, 2011)

Short version... Based on the 2017 NEC

210.8

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.

All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops

No exceptions for the equipment you listed unless hardwired.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As stated above-- you are out of luck with a cord and plug setup in a commercial kitchen.

Also, if the gfci is tripping then there is something wrong with his appliance. You don't need water nearby to get shocked


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I have been under the impression that a refrigerator didn't require a GFI?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

No exceptions for refrigerators



> (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase,
> 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
> specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have
> ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
> ...


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Taking a guess that the meat slicers are heavy duty metal and the motor is carbon brush. 

It may be the dust from the brush's builds a bridge from the brush holders to the bearing support and the gfci detects it.

Take it to a shop to have it tested and they plug it into a normal receptacle which allows enough current to ground to destroy the dust bridge. They say there's no problem with the item so they return it and it runs just fine on the gfci for a few days to months.

Rince and repeat a few times and then blame the gfci.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have been under the impression that a refrigerator didn't require a GFI?



No exceptions but the manufacture manual recommends not to use a gfci receptacle.

Same a a gfci receptacle recommends that they are not mounted in a damp environment.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Put in a 120/240 split twist-lock receptacle in, cut the plug off the fridge and put a matching plug on. Now it is above 150v and you don't need a GFCI.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

How old is the deli and what code was the permit issued under? That's all he has to maintain.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

samgregger said:


> Put in a 120/240 split twist-lock receptacle in, cut the plug off the fridge and put a matching plug on. Now it is above 150v and you don't need a GFCI.


You can also take some pain medicine if you've been shot, but the better course of action might be to get some surgery. 

The efficacy of GFCI's as it relates to enhancement of safety is clear and well-documented. I'm not so sure I'd be all that interested in lowering the level of safety and favor fixing the problem. GFCI's don't nuisance trip. They reason trip. That reason isn't always that clear, but it's very satisfying when you find the smoking gun. For commercial counter appliances, I've found that a "leaky cord" is one of the most popular failures. Appliances with a typical Carlingswitch-type toggle switch are another popular failure point. A megger will help you sort things out in a hurry.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Oh, another thing. Commercial kitchen GFCI's take some abuse with regard to splatter and washdown. Unless you have a device to test trip current (like the one Slater used to make), I'd prophylactically replace any suspect old GFCI's as a cheap way to rule them out as the entire cause. 

While the box is open, investigate if any of the GFCI's have load side terminal loads connected to them. This is somewhat important. If a downstream load has 3ma of current imbalance and the appliance you plug in has 3ma of current imbalance, the GFCI will trip because the 6ma threshold was met. BUT... neither load on its own would have righteously tripped a GFCI. As a matter of good practice, commercial kitchen GFCI's should always be pigtailed out and point of use, with nothing connected to the load side terminals.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Oh, another thing. Commercial kitchen GFCI's take some abuse with regard to splatter and washdown. Unless you have a device to test trip current (like the one Slater used to make), I'd prophylactically replace any suspect old GFCI's as a cheap way to rule them out as the entire cause.
> 
> While the box is open, investigate if any of the GFCI's have load side terminal loads connected to them. This is somewhat important. If a downstream load has 3ma of current imbalance and the appliance you plug in has 3ma of current imbalance, the GFCI will trip because the 6ma threshold was met. BUT... neither load on its own would have righteously tripped a GFCI. As a matter of good practice, commercial kitchen GFCI's should always be pigtailed out and point of use, with nothing connected to the load side terminals.


Do you leave the gfci receptacle in an accessible location? 

Many sub zero refrigerators have a very specific and limited place to
put the receptacle outlet and for that reason makes the receptacle outlet
non accessible for personnel use. 

I'm not arguing the code , but I have yet to use a gfci receptacle on
any refrigerator or upright freezer due to inaccessibility to reset the 
button.

BTW , I really think the code is off base.. IMO it has nothing 
to do with *personnel* protection as it is written because
* people* do not or cannot plug into a non accessible outlet 
receptacle.

I would not be surprised to see an exception to the 2017
code on this matter , but yeah , as it is written now commercial
refrigerators would have to be gfci protected.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

lighterup said:


> Do you leave the gfci receptacle in an accessible location?
> 
> Many sub zero refrigerators have a very specific and limited place to
> put the receptacle outlet and for that reason makes the receptacle outlet
> ...


I figure if you can't get to the receptacle, you can always put a dead front in a readily accessible spot. I think it's worth doing, the GFCI doesn't just protect you from sticking a fork in the outlet, it also protects you come in contact with some fault in the appliance itself that isn't cleared by the EGC.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

gpop said:


> No exceptions but the manufacture manual recommends not to use a gfci receptacle.
> 
> *Same as a gfci receptacle recommends that they are not mounted in a damp environment*.


Huh! :surprise: Are you saying the manufacturer states not to install a gfci outside? They do make WR Gfci's you know.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

splatz said:


> I figure if you can't get to the receptacle, you can always put a dead front in a readily accessible spot. I think it's worth doing, the GFCI doesn't just protect you from sticking a fork in the outlet, it also protects you come in contact with some fault in the appliance itself that isn't cleared by the EGC.


I've used the gfci circuit breaker on the few commercial applications 
I've dealt with under this code. I have not had problems (at least have 
not been notified of any)

I kind of disagree with you on the equipment issue cause then it would
be gfep protection and besides there are plenty of appliances through
out a facility that have metal casings not requiring gfci protection.
If you're correct then everything metal should be gfci protected.

On a different note:
When the code change started requiring AFCI on residential 
kitchens , I thought for sure problems were ahead but to my
pleasant surprise haven't had any issues with that either.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

lighterup said:


> BTW , I really think the code is off base.. IMO it has nothing
> to do with *personnel* protection as it is written because
> * people* do not or cannot plug into a non accessible outlet
> receptacle..


I guess I can't really get on board that the physical act of plugging in or unplugging in a load is the only way to get zapped. In fact, I might go as far as to say that's the least likely way to get hurt by a leaky load in a commercial kitchen.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Huh! :surprise: Are you saying the manufacturer states not to install a gfci outside? They do make WR Gfci's you know.


I don't think "WR mounting Screws" are on his mind , but
as a full disclaimer , I'm not a mind reader.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> I guess I can't really get on board that the physical act of plugging in or unplugging in a load is the only way to get zapped. In fact, I might go as far as to say that's the least likely way to get hurt by a leaky load in a commercial kitchen.


Splatz already has me re thinking this , but I'm saying
by definition GFCI is personell protection not equipment
protection sooo

Edit to ad: By your logic , hardwired appliances should be 
gfci protected as well but code does not require it .


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Splatz already has me re thinking this , but I'm saying
> by definition GFCI is personell protection not equipment
> protection sooo


Right. And since commercial kitchen equipment is substantially stainless steel, and since that current imbalance is going somewhere, it's likely going to places people touch. This is the whole idea behind GFCI's in any location.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Right. And since commercial kitchen equipment is substantially stainless steel, and since that current imbalance is going somewhere, it's likely going to places people touch. This is the whole idea behind GFCI's in any location.


see my edit above.
Gotta go to work now
Have a really nice day


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

lighterup said:


> I've used the gfci circuit breaker on the few commercial applications
> I've dealt with under this code. I have not had problems (at least have
> not been notified of any)
> 
> ...


That is true. And you see what people do with 120V with their Christmas lights do outside in the weather and not get shocked, maybe it's not all that scary  

My thinking is not that kitchen equipment is more hazardous than say machine shop equipment, both are made of metal, can cause faults, etc. But when the fault occurs, in a kitchen or bathroom or roof, you're more likely to be standing in water with wet shoes, or have the other hand on a wet counter, or etc. So the resistance of the ground path through your body is lower, and the shock current will be greater, thus the greater hazard. 

I like the idea of GFCI breakers but a dead face is less likely to create a phone call to me. You can mount a dead face and label it RESET FOR REFRIGERATOR RECEPTACLE and when the problem occurs the customer can figure it out themself. I also like the idea that you're not trying to squeeze so much into a breaker space. Plus @MDShunk 's point that you are not subject to cumulative leakage of all the loads on the circuit.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The bummer about a GFCI breaker is that it's not apparent without further troubleshooting whether it overload tripped or GFCI tripped.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Huh! :surprise: Are you saying the manufacturer states not to install a gfci outside? They do make WR Gfci's you know.



Shouldn't all gfci's be WR rated as a bathroom or kitchen is a damp area?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

gpop said:


> Shouldn't all gfci's be WR rated as a bathroom or kitchen is a damp area?


Those areas do not meet the definition of damp areas. If they were you would need wp plates.



> Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not
> subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to
> moderate degrees of moisture.


Now look at the examples in the note



> Informational Note: Examples of such locations include partially
> protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open
> porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to
> moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some
> barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I have had lots of GFCIs nuisance trip as the GFCI gets old so replacement often cures the problem. Megger the cord though. After turns up a fault if something doesn't need switched on.

Also as motors age the varnish insulation develops cracks and crazed. Then it gets dust and moisture build up abd eventually leaks current. This heats up so it burns off the moisture but accelerates the aging process so it gradually gets worse and worse...this is a normal part of motor aging unless the bearings give out first or it burns up from an overload. NEMA says motors in continuous use last about 20 years at most. I'd say 10-30 depending on quality of the build and the load and conditions around it.

Way before the motor starter trips a GFCI can detect failing insulation but because the moisture heats up and flashes off, the problem seems to be a nuisance at first.

Megger find this easily. Megger at 500 V for 1 minute. Reading should be 5 megaohms or more. Must use a megger. For example this week had a sewer pump that tripped breaker (NOT ground fault). Flygt pump technician aid it was good with a Fluke multimeter. I checked it with both Fluke and Amprobe meters I used. The Amprobe is good to 50 megaohms but output is a few volts, same as the Fluke which only had a range of i think 6000 ohms. The megger showed 0.3 megaohms which is clearly bad insulation or contamination. I didn't check at lower voltages but I'll bet if it was 208/120 on a ground fault detector it would trip.

Remember a GFCI measures the difference in current between line and neutral. If there is any difference at all it's going across all your grounded metal equipment on its way back to the neutral at the panel, and can take a shortcut through a person touching it, especially with moisture around. Ground fault interrupters can drift out of calibration but if they are working correctly, ground faults are very real but sometimes hard to find.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Be careful meggering stuff that has electronics in it. 

If the megger has a 150 volt range, it won't hurt anything. 250 volts can burn up electronic stuff.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> The bummer about a GFCI breaker is that it's not apparent without further troubleshooting whether it overload tripped or GFCI tripped.



some brands of gfci receptacles claim that they trip at max load rating also.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

gpop said:


> some brands of gfci receptacles claim that they trip at max load rating also.


I have never heard that before. Could you please show me where that info is given as I would like to have it


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

gpop said:


> some brands of gfci receptacles claim that they trip at max load rating also.


If this is true, this is where engineers can be true idiots.

Say like those annoying IEC manual motor starters. It's basically an MCP (magnetic only circuit breaker) combined with a thermal overload relay, and the contactor is separate. So if it trips do you have a mechanical overload problem or an electrical fault somewhere? Nobody can tell. With the traditional NEMA approach I have an MCP which trips on shorts and an overload relay that trips on overloads. I might use an electronic trip unit that might also detect and trip on phase loss, phase imbalance, and ground fault. But this is where it gets ugly because quite often a phase imbalance fault might actually be a power problem like a high resistance connection or could even be a phase loss, or phase loss might be a ground or short circuit problem with a high resistance connection that draws down the phase but doesn't totally lose it so it becomes hard to troubleshoot what is really going on.

I'm all for multifunctional relays but when you go down that road, it needs to be very easy to tell WHAT the trip was and not just some general idiot light because quite often what the relay is telling you might be a good reason to trip but the actual explanation might be something very different from the fault indicator. So if it trips on both overcurrent and ground fault, how can I tell the difference? And I don't mean "steady or blinking" unless it is REALLY well labelled.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

gpop said:


> some brands of gfci receptacles claim that they trip at max load rating also.


I doubt it. I make it a point to know about these trivial things, and I've never heard that before.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> I doubt it. I make it a point to know about these trivial things, and I've never heard that before.



yep i think you guys are correct and they dont make one.

I had a show and tell with a sales guy a while back for industrial gfci, arc faults and a bunch of other stuff he was peddling. 
He was telling us how we could custom order receptacles when we asked for gfci receptacles with a built in overload. He said that wasn't a problem as they already made such a thing.

Looking on line it seems that somewhere we got confused and he is probably referring to a panel interface which is a fancy box with a gfci and a simple pop out breaker. 
Need to find his card and order a few 3 amp as they will still work for what i require they would just look like crap in a house.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Voids warranty*



gpop said:


> No exceptions but the manufacture manual recommends not to use a gfci receptacle.
> 
> Same a a gfci receptacle recommends that they are not mounted in a damp environment.



Voids warranty, The new refrigerator says it voids warranty if hooked to a GFI circuit.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

*That's utterly ridiculous, but....*



just the cowboy said:


> Voids warranty, The new refrigerator says it voids warranty if hooked to a GFI circuit.


As long as you don't tell them, they'll never know.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I can't remember but there was something different / extra about one brand of GFCI receptacles as @gpop mentioned. It was not overload protection. It might have been Leviton. They all use coils to compare current on the hot and neutral. The one brand might have monitored the ground as well? Drawing a blank at the moment.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Oh, another thing. Commercial kitchen GFCI's take some abuse with regard to splatter and washdown. Unless you have a device to test trip current (like the one Slater used to make), I'd prophylactically replace any suspect old GFCI's as a cheap way to rule them out as the entire cause.
> 
> While the box is open, investigate if any of the GFCI's have load side terminal loads connected to them. This is somewhat important. If a downstream load has 3ma of current imbalance and the appliance you plug in has 3ma of current imbalance, the GFCI will trip because the 6ma threshold was met. BUT... neither load on its own would have righteously tripped a GFCI. As a matter of good practice, commercial kitchen GFCI's should always be pigtailed out and point of use, with nothing connected to the load side terminals.



I already told him to get an electrician in to replace the GFCI's .


Most are on there own circuit but he did have one the was shared and the 3+3 makes sense.


I agree that they are all needed as GFCI's due to the way they think at the place. Had to check it out for safety reasons.


Thanks for the input guys
Cowboy


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Contrary to popular belief a GFCI does not prevent a shock. If I stand in a puddle and touch a bare wire connected to a GFCI will it prevent the shock? No. It triggers after the shock occurs but it shuts off Power before I die.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

paulengr said:


> Contrary to popular belief a GFCI does not prevent a shock. If I stand in a puddle and touch a bare wire connected to a GFCI will it prevent the shock? No. It triggers after the shock occurs but it shuts off Power before I die.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, it's supposed to anyway.........


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

micromind said:


> Well, it's supposed to anyway.........


Someone on here must know if its true. Anyone want to own up to touching a wire and tripping the gfci?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

That wouldn't get you off because no part of that circuit is more than 150V "to ground", only phase to phase.


samgregger said:


> Put in a 120/240 split twist-lock receptacle in, cut the plug off the fridge and put a matching plug on. Now it is above 150v and you don't need a GFCI.


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## nysparkdude (Jun 7, 2012)

samgregger said:


> Put in a 120/240 split twist-lock receptacle in, cut the plug off the fridge and put a matching plug on. Now it is above 150v and you don't need a GFCI.


I would say "nice try" but still fail that installation. "All 125-volt, single-phase, 15 and 20-ampere receptacles..." A 120/240 split twist-lock receptacle still meets the definition requiring GFCI unless it is wired at 240V. I may not like some of the code requirements but as an inspector, I am compelled to enforce them. In this case, fault current is apparently leaking to the grounded or ungrounded case which could create a potentially hazardous condition to personnel. Are you suggesting that an electrician circumvent the code and place persons in a dangerous condition? If done purposefully, this could expose you and/or your employer to liability. What's the cost savings between a 120/240 twist lock and a GFCI receptacle? Not worth the liability!


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

If it's one leg 240V to ground, it's exempt.
If it's 2 legs each 120V to ground, it's required.
Agree?


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> If it's one leg 240V to ground, it's exempt.
> If it's 2 legs each 120V to ground, it's required.
> Agree?


Well damn... My company had me go install 2 dedicated 2-pole receptacles (each leg at 120v) in a commercial kitchen last Friday. It was coming out of a 120/208v panel so each kitchen equipment needed 208 volts. I don't think they make GFCI 2 pole receptacles lol. So that job was not up to code? What I needed to do was buy two 2-pole gfci breakers to bring it up to code?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm so relieved that I don't have to GFCI protect that 100 amp, 480 volt booster heater for the Hobart dishwasher.


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