# Punitive safety culture



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The alternate title for this thread might be "How's your safety culture".

For our entire working lives, we've heard at every toolbox talk, tailboard meeting, safety meeting, and annual training this phrase, "Report every accident, no matter how minor". 

A quick audit of the number of band aids used from the first aid kit compared to the reported accident and injury log will confirm that absolutely does not happen. Why? I'd suggest that's it's from the historical trend of a punitive safety culture. Or, that is to say, a culture of safety in name only, and not as much focus on root cause analysis and how to keep injuries from occurring again or in the future and more of a culture of bringing the hammer down on the injured person. 

What is a punitive safety culture? Undoubtedly, we've all experienced it. The thought, impression or actual fact that the company believes there's no way you can hurt yourself without it being your fault. I'd almost agree that this is true, in large part, but it's not a helpful stance when it comes to injury and accident prevention. When the injured person reports an accident, the company focus shifts from accident investigation and future prevention to "how can we make it his fault and how can we extract a pound of flesh". The investigations seem to always revolve around what you did wrong an how you should be penalized. 

What does a punitive safety culture lead to? Well, on the face, unreported accidents. Especially minor ones. The injured person has to weigh, very carefully in his mind, the consequences of coping with the injury on his own (will the cut heal; should I pay for stitches on my own; I'll sleep it off, etc.) versus the very real consequences of the company's punitive actions (after the investigation) upon him for having an accident and reporting it based on historical observations of other reported accidents. 

More importantly, unreported minor accidents and injuries lead to major accidents and injuries. The way you prevent major accidents and injuries to is address as many minor accidents and injuries with the perspective of prevention of elimination in a non-punitive way. A way, I'd say, more in alignment of promoting a genuine safety culture. 

How's your safety culture? If you have a small accident or injury, is the first thought in your mind, "The company would really like to know about this so we can keep this from happening again"? Or, is the first thought in your mind things like, "I'm going to lose my safety pay, get a letter in my file, and have to deal with all these PITA accident reporting forms. It's just a cut/muscle strain/only a little thing broken. I'll keep this to myself and cope with it"?


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

I had a safety guy once tell me about walking onto a large oil facility and as you go through the gate there is a nice big board that stated thousands of hours "accident and injury free". He took as a bold face lie. Yes they have a lot of procedures to prevent accidents but the hours indicate that no one is reporting the minor stuff. Go to a safety seminar and how long before you see the pyramid? Without the reports of minor incidents, the larger incident is going to creep up on you without notice. Then your asking, why didn't anyone mention this stuff.
It's everyone's job to be safe and try to keep those around you safe. We have a non disciplinary policy about reporting and people still hide it. Buck up and report this stuff, it may save a life or limb down the line.
Unfortunately you have to be past the time in your life where you think you are indestructible. I think for me that was around 40.

Tim


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes, I think most thinking men regard those safety banners with a peculiar amount of hours worked accident and injury free as probably a big lie. While there probably are a rare few that are true and accurate, many of them are playing games with the numbers. Many companies regard injuries that only required first aid OR injuries that aren't reportable on the OSHA 300 log OR injuries that didn't result in lost work time as not injuries at all. Many companies also regard accidents that resulted in property loss less than a certain value as not an accident at all. The more progressive safety cultures will separately track near misses and injuries that only required first aid on those same safety reporting boards, and I'm happy to see that. 

In the case of your oil refinery example, many large companies have on staff, nurses and physical therapists. Sometimes on each shift. While this truly is a benefit to the worker, their real purpose is to divert as much care away from outside sources and keep it in house, and thus it's no longer a legally reportable injury. Dubious method, to be sure, but it seems to be a growing trend. "First Aid" from trained and skilled professionals to short-circuit the reporting system and keep things off the books. 

I applaud your company for having a non-disciplinary attitude toward injury reporting. One of the most helpful things, in my observation, that can help more minor things get reported in when a company has a systematic system for the reporting of POTENTIAL safety issues, and the employees can see that these issues are quickly attended to and fixed. When this very visible commitment to safety is demonstrated and observed, the minor injury and minor accident reporting will increase. 

To be clear, I'm not a safety nazi. Far from it, actually. We've probably all heard the old expression, "If you ain't bleedin', you ain't workin'", which I think is mostly true. I'd just prefer not to bleed, and if we can engineer out the mechanisms that make me bleed, I'd like that best.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

back when i had gotten a finger caught in a conveyor roller i discovered the roller retainer strips were left in place. (they were supposed to be removed if the conveyor was below 7 feet from the floor) a support rail had broken and my hand slipped off the rail and into the roller.
when the osha rep was discussing the incident over tele-conferance our engineer stated that disciplinary actions were going to be filed against me!
the osha rep blew a gasket and stated under no circumstances will I be disciplined.

it was pretty sweet seeing him get a royal @$$ ripping from both the osha rep and the plant manager.

no accident is 100% preventable but the largest percentage of them are, but sometimes safety regs can be a bit anal and highly counter productive.
you cannot have a someone designing safety equipment and training if they are limited by budget concerns.

money wisely spent on preventative equipment and *proper ppe. *is above all the most important expenditure, your employees will be safer ,more productive , and moral will be much better.

all of those safety signs, counters, and banners are there to impress visitors and customers, Certainly not for our benefit!
we have a saying about the *5S* program:
*S*ecretly *S*windle *S*urprisingly *S*tupid *S*tockholders

and I am Happy Im retired! One of my former co-workers told me it has gotten worse


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

During coffee the other day our supervisor informed us that we are supposed to complete a JSA for basically every activity throughout the day but that if we did we would be filling out JSA's all day and we wouldn't actually have time to work. So he told us that if we get hurt doing anything a JSA WILL be in the binder one way or another lol. Apparently that's the first thing the company does after finding out you got hurt and they have a history of using it against you.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

QMED said:


> During coffee the other day our supervisor informed us that we are supposed to complete a JSA for basically every activity throughout the day but that if we did we would be filling out JSA's all day and we wouldn't actually have time to work. So he told us that if we get hurt doing anything a JSA WILL be in the binder one way or another lol. Apparently that's the first thing the company does after finding out you got hurt and they have a history of using it against you.


That's just.....who cares


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

LuckyLuke said:


> That's just.....um........what?
> 
> The purpose of those is not to use against the worker but to aid them in identifying or eliminating potential issues.


How do you know what the purpose of my current company requiring JSA's is? Are you psychic? LOL you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. I have no idea why you or your coworkers are filling out JSA's. Do you know why? Because I don't know you or where you work.

Did you read the OP? Do you have any attention to detail whatsoever? The thread is titled "Punitive Safety Culture". Do you understand now? 

You expect me to discount the word of someone I trust in these matters and who has demonstrated themselves to be a standup guy when people have gotten hurt? I personally witnessed the guy raise holy hell over a safety issue and is always making sure we have what we need.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

QMED said:


> How do you know what the purpose of my current company requiring JSA's is? Are you psychic? LOL you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. I have no idea why you or your coworkers are filling out JSA's. Do you know why? Because I don't know you or where you work.


Since you decided to edit I will as well, you are clearly not worth my time.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

LuckyLuke said:


> I think you need to take your meds.....Your the one that said "they have a history of using it against you"....Also a JSA is not really something that is totally different in different companies or places, there is a set reason for them. I am starting to think though that you fill yours with wax crayons.


I said "apparently". As in, I was told that by somebody who has knowledge of what happens when injuries and accidents occur. 

Again please read the title of the thread. I've been working in industry all my adult life and I know what JSA's are used for on paper. You are very dense.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've seen places with large shelving units full of binders of JSA's. Creating a JSA, post facto, when someone had an injury? That's something I'e never heard of before, and really dirty pool. Creating a JSA, after the fact, so they can specially craft it to show that you violated safety policy when you got hurt.. Wow. That's one we'll all have to keep our eyes peeled for. I wish more companies would be more proactive in their approach rather than drawing their guns at the first sign of a guy getting hurt.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Creating a JSA, post facto, when someone had an injury? That's something I'e never heard of before, and really dirty pool. .


Qmed is correct. A JSA will be filled out before or when needed, after the accident. 
We have to fill in the blanks on a safety accident report and every time the employee will be found at fault. Accidents are always avoidable,, so they say. 
The only time I’ve ever seen an employee not held at fault is when a manager stands up and defends the employee.. Even then they had better of been standing there watching as it happened and had ordered the employee to do the task that caused the injury. 
Of course if your killed on the job the investigation is easy. It’s the employees fault. He obviously did something wrong or he wouldn’t be dead. 

My last OTJ injury/illness was easy.. I went to my own Dr and found out I had legionnaires.. 2 weeks bed rest and sicker then a dog. They swept that one under the rug.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If they'd have put the same effort into doing an actual JSA (called JHA some places) before some of these accidents, it's possible at least some of them wouldn't have happened in the first place. The mere process of drafting a JSA, very often, leads to process and equipment changes that would have otherwise not have happened if the JSA was not attended to. Process and equipment changes that can prevent future injury.

Years back there was a forum for hospital maintenance guys. I was a member there, and despite that, the forum didn't last long. In any event, one man related that every maintenance task he was assigned, he was required to search for the relevant JSAs first. If none were found related to that task, a JSA had to be drafted and approved before work could commence. That's pretty over-the-top, but I see it as "true north". The standard by which other safety programs may be judged.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

MDShunk said:


> I've seen places with large shelving units full of binders of JSA's. Creating a JSA, post facto, when someone had an injury? That's something I'e never heard of before, and really dirty pool. Creating a JSA, after the fact, so they can specially craft it to show that you violated safety policy when you got hurt.. Wow. That's one we'll all have to keep our eyes peeled for. I wish more companies would be more proactive in their approach rather than drawing their guns at the first sign of a guy getting hurt.


Company is not physically here and can't alter anything. We are literally in the middle of nowhere working 12 hours every day for 5 months straight. However, if someone is legitimately hurt falling off a 2ft ladder changing a lightbulb they will IMMEDIATELY ask for the JSA among other things and if you didn't fill one out they got you. You filled out a JSA right? Of course we did. It was just an accident which do actually happen much to the consternation of office folk. Guy who fell off the ladder is covered, our boss is covered, and the company can't shirk any responsibility just because the crew are not perfect robots. That is why we always follow company policy and make sure our JSA's for every little thing are filed away prior to every little job. And the company never uses back channels to go after people's jobs, ever. lain:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

QMED said:


> Company is not physically here and can't alter anything. We are literally in the middle of nowhere working 12 hours every day for 5 months straight. However, if someone is legitimately hurt falling off a 2ft ladder changing a lightbulb they will IMMEDIATELY ask for the JSA among other things and if you didn't fill one out they got you. You filled out a JSA right? Of course we did. It was just an accident which do actually happen much to the consternation of office folk. Guy who fell off the ladder is covered, our boss is covered, and the company can't shirk any responsibility just because the crew are not perfect robots. That is why we always follow company policy and make sure our JSA's for every little thing are filed away prior to every little job. And the company never uses back channels to go after people's jobs, ever. lain:


I see what you're saying. You're responsible for drafting your own JSA's for the task at hand. Seems a little weird, but ok. That's a new one on me also.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

Wirenuting said:


> Qmed is correct. A JSA will be filled out before or when needed, after the accident.
> We have to fill in the blanks on a safety accident report and *every time the employee will be found at fault. Accidents are always avoidable,, so they say.*
> The only time I’ve ever seen an employee not held at fault is when a manager stands up and defends the employee.. Even then they had better of been standing there watching as it happened and had ordered the employee to do the task that caused the injury.
> Of course if your killed on the job the investigation is easy. It’s the employees fault. He obviously did something wrong or he wouldn’t be dead.
> ...


Bingo. The industry I work in has some great people but it is very old and has a finely tuned blame thrower lol. If anybody has been following the El Faro tragedy they might have noticed they are already starting to shift the blame to the crew even though the capt drove it straight into a hurricane because he didn't want to get his peepee spanked for missing his appt at the dock again.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

We haven't implemented JHAs yet, talk but no action. A lot of what we do is repetitive, a lot of different tasked but the same thing generally month after month. Our PMs do have a description of each task, but they could use some updating(part of my job).
A work in progress, as long as we are moving forward.
We just went through a complete electrical safety audit. Airside faired pretty well re documentation, lock out, sign off etc. The terminal not so well.
Can't ever let this stuff become stagnant or it will bite you in the a$$. 

Tim.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Like most of us, I drive cars. Like a few of us, I also fly planes. 

The safety culture of cars and planes is about as different as it can be. 

The safety culture of cars is based on fear.......I'd better come to a full stop at the sign, there might be a cop hiding in the bushes waiting to bust me. Rules and laws are rigidly enforced. 

The safety culture of flying is based on actual safety. There are no traffic cops, no one wants to bust anyone. While regulations certainly do exist, one in particular stands out as promoting safety. It's 14 CFR 91.3 which states; 

(A) the pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of the aircraft. 

(B) In an inflight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet the emergency. 

No such rule exists for cars......medical emergency in a car violating a speed limit.....ticket......

Medical emergency in a plane violating the speed limit (it's 250 knots below 10,000' and 200 knots near an airport) no punishment whatsoever. 

Having done both, I'd say that operating a plane is substantially more difficult than operating a car and depending on how you slant statistics, flying is substantially safer that driving. 

Why? 

Obviously, pilots have more training than drivers and there's far more room between planes than cars but I believe the basic difference in safety culture has more to do with it than anything else. 

What is the safety culture on a typical job that has safety nazis rigidly ramming a myriad of idiotic regulations on us vs. one that leans more toward using common dense, education and experience? 

Which basic attitude is likely to promote actual safety?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's one thing I really wish I took a picture of when I toured the inside of the Hoover Dam, there was an old sign, probably original equipment when they built the place, that said "The most important safety device is a CAREFUL MAN. 

It sounds simple, and I guess it is, but there's really a lot to that simple idea. I think that's pretty much in line with the plane philosophy. Classes might help, PPE might help, classes might help, even meetings and paperwork might help, but ultimately they're only worth a damn if they result in a careful man or woman that knows what they're doing and knows how to make a hazardous job safer. How often is that really the case? 



micromind said:


> Like most of us, I drive cars. Like a few of us, I also fly planes.
> 
> The safety culture of cars and planes is about as different as it can be.
> 
> ...


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

splatz said:


> There's one thing I really wish I took a picture of when I toured the inside of the Hoover Dam, there was an old sign, probably original equipment when they built the place, that said "The most important safety device is a CAREFUL MAN.
> 
> It sounds simple, and I guess it is, but there's really a lot to that simple idea. I think that's pretty much in line with the plane philosophy. Classes might help, PPE might help, classes might help, even meetings and paperwork might help, but ultimately they're only worth a damn if they result in a careful man or woman that knows what they're doing and knows how to make a hazardous job safer. How often is that really the case?


Unfortunately, it's getting more and more rare. 

As we're forced to blindly comply with an ever-increasing amount of rules, there's less and less left to put toward actual safety.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

It comes from Europe’s stupid guaranteed employment laws and expertise at creating bureaucracies. In Europe almost everyone even operators are contractors. They have massive piles of rules for everything which essentially nobody follows. So when it comes time to get rid of somebody or do whatever they want they just pick out some choice rules that nobody follows or reads and claim contract violation so they can “fire” someone without repercussions. In the US most states are employ at will so we don’t even give a reason (which becomes grounds for a wrongful termination claim). We just use the famous phrase “we’re sorry but your services are no longer needed.” The fall out though is we keep trying to emulate the European bureaucracies AND follow the rules because that’s what we do in the US but its a totally different culture so it doesn’t work at all. We also keep trying to use things like six sigma QC programs (failure rates less than one in a million) on safety with “zero tolerance” (zero intelligence) with predictable results.

Another stupid idea is the Heinrich triangle which is the idea that fir every fatality there are 10 series injuries, 100 first aids, 1000 near misses so if we focus on the little stuff, we avoid the big ones. In the past 20 years of this first aids have come down dramatically but fatalities and serious injuries are unchanged, proving Heinrich is wrong. It’s wrong because for instance with electrical injuries shock and arc flash are either serious injuries or fatalities always but not first aids. Focusing on first aids totally misses those.

I think it’s pretty clear from experience that the causes of accidents are the same and pretty well known but rules won’t make them go away. It’s things like not having your eyes on the task.

When I worked in a DuPont style plant 20 years ago the rules were pretty simple. You followed them because they were easy to understand and pretty obvious why they were there. Now nobody knows what they are supposed to do and there are lots of rules that don’t make sense. The height of stupidity is all kinds of rules and procedures for ignoring the rules and procedures. So it encourages employees to take short cuts and ignore the stupid ones. So ignore one rule and nothing bad happens. Ignore another one, maybe even one that 20 years ago was actually important and once again nothing bad happens. So the employee sees a reward (praise for getting it done, less work to do on a job, higher self worth but not filling out paperwork or doing some other menial unproductive task in the name of safety) and pretty soon we’ve set ourselves up for failure.

Like what Trump is doing to regulations it’s time to re-examine what we’re doing and get rid of the bureaucracy because it actually encourages accidents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Don't get to much blood on anything. :lol:


I got a nice Tri-Stand bite today, I just made sure the bloody spots on the RMC were on the side of the pipe facing the wall. Safety program implemented.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

paulengr said:


> It comes from Europe’s stupid guaranteed employment laws and expertise at creating bureaucracies. In Europe almost everyone even operators are contractors. They have massive piles of rules for everything which essentially nobody follows. So when it comes time to get rid of somebody or do whatever they want they just pick out some choice rules that nobody follows or reads and claim contract violation so they can “fire” someone without repercussions. In the US most states are employ at will so we don’t even give a reason (which becomes grounds for a wrongful termination claim). We just use the famous phrase “we’re sorry but your services are no longer needed.” The fall out though is we keep trying to emulate the European bureaucracies AND follow the rules because that’s what we do in the US but its a totally different culture so it doesn’t work at all. We also keep trying to use things like six sigma QC programs (failure rates less than one in a million) on safety with “zero tolerance” (zero intelligence) with predictable results.
> 
> Another stupid idea is the Heinrich triangle which is the idea that fir every fatality there are 10 series injuries, 100 first aids, 1000 near misses so if we focus on the little stuff, we avoid the big ones. In the past 20 years of this first aids have come down dramatically but fatalities and serious injuries are unchanged, proving Heinrich is wrong. It’s wrong because for instance with electrical injuries shock and arc flash are either serious injuries or fatalities always but not first aids. Focusing on first aids totally misses those.
> 
> ...


I could not agree with this more, I've heard this called ISO-ism and they are so proud of it. 5S is another stroke of genius I believe that originates from Japan.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Safety is more and more becoming a culture.. It has to be believed in by everyone and followed by all. 

Micro - After reading about your flying comparisons, I remember a speaker at a Safety Conference I was at last month and it got me thinking. He was a former naval pilot and a retired CEO, it was along the lines, if you want to see someone with a different view on safety, ask a pilot how many accidents he would tolerate in a day. 

I think it's that tolerance that changes the culture in your environment. If people ignore it or accept it as the norm, then that could lead to an incident.

To those that can't/don't take the time to do a JSA/JHA, what price are you putting on safety? What is your tolerance, and ignorance level to some of the hazards you work around? If the company is paying you to be safe, what difference does it make if you work 7 hours a day or 4 hours a day if you are still charging for 8? 

Some other things that speaker mentioned that I found amazing...
- 4,800 people will go to work this year and not go home. 
- The term "I never saw it coming" will apply to most of these people.
- The routine can go upside down in a heartbeat.
- There will be 26 severe injuries in a day or 9,600 a year
- There will be 2,444 LTA's a day or 892,276/year, with the average time being 8 days. How many of these had the severity to be in the first two categories?
Just some food for thought..


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

paulengr said:


> Another stupid idea is the Heinrich triangle which is the idea that fir every fatality there are 10 series injuries, 100 first aids, 1000 near misses so if we focus on the little stuff, we avoid the big ones. In the past 20 years of this first aids have come down dramatically but fatalities and serious injuries are unchanged, proving Heinrich is wrong. It’s wrong because for instance with electrical injuries shock and arc flash are either serious injuries or fatalities always but not first aids. Focusing on first aids totally misses those.
> 
> I think it’s pretty clear from experience that the causes of accidents are the same and pretty well known but rules won’t make them go away. It’s things like not having your eyes on the task.


So what's the answer here, from your perspective? 

It sounds like you might be saying that we quit engineering out all of the things that we know people get hurt by, and just assume that if someone is injured they were dumb or were doing something dumb? That's a pretty outdated way to think, but I could have my analysis of your comments wrong. Although, to that end, I'd agree that people do some incredibly stupid things an awful lot of the time, and their minds are often elsewhere. I'd favor a culture of permanent corrections that would allow some degree of inattentiveness and still have the environment safe. People work all around us with IQ's all over the chart.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I agree that the SUPPOSITIONS from the Heinrich triangle are flawed. The Heinrich triangle is a rough statistical model of how the number of work related accident types compare to each other in number. The supposition that is flawed, in my observation also, is that focusing on near misses and first aids will naturally result in lower medical treatment incidents, lost time incidents, and deaths. Indeed, that does not prove to be true. This reinforces that fact that safety efforts need to remain focused at each tier of the Heinrich triangle. One of the most fantastic takeaways, however, that has held true is that behavior management has been effective at reducing numbers at every level, and I think that's what some of you guys are saying. 

The real question: What are some of the most effective ways to modify behavior?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

glen1971 said:


> To those that can't/don't take the time to do a JSA/JHA, what price are you putting on safety? What is your tolerance, and ignorance level to some of the hazards you work around? If the company is paying you to be safe, what difference does it make if you work 7 hours a day or 4 hours a day if you are still charging for 8?


This gets to the crux of it right here. I know you work in a very hazardous industrial environment and you've posted in the past what a high percent of your time is spend on safety. 

A relatively small percent of my time is spent with customers that have really rigorous safety programs in place. The most rigorous is at a site where the hazards are really pretty small. 

What's my tolerance for accidents? That's an odd way to word it if you think about it. I know that wording is steeped in the safety culture, which basically sells itself. 

I don't really tolerate accidents I wish accidents didn't happen, big ones, little ones, none of them. I wish there were no poverty or sickness and while we're at it I wish people didn't have to get old and eventually die. Do I tolerate these things? Do I have a choice? LOL 

But I live in the real world and sadly occasionally bad things happen. You'll never make anything totally safe, if you get to fixated on that you should probably just stay home. Stay under your bed to be safe in case the ceiling caves in today. Me, **** that, I have things to accomplish today. 

I worry more about getting in an accident driving to and from this place. And ironically, the people managing the site, who would be AGHAST if I ran with scissors on their site, will press me to not cancel when there's snow and ice on the roads. Now you tell me, do you think their motive is really my safety, or something else? Hmmm, what could it be?$? They don't want to pay to cancel the confined space rescue crew that's scheduled. 

I guess for me, my JSAs are really not in meetings or paperwork, they occur before during and after my work, they are in my preparations, awareness of my situation at all times, common sense, experience, and qualification. I can honestly say I have never left one of their JSA meetings and said, "Boy, I'd have been taking an awful chance if that safety officer didn't point that out to me." 

But, I have been indoctrinated to the dangers of utility knives and been forced to sign forms to that effect. They'd like to have the death penalty for using a utility knife on their site. I **** you not, I have had to sign / initial materials to indicate I have been informed of the dangers of ticks, sunburn, and _bears_. I am not making this up. 

Now this is an unmanned remote site, the REAL hazards at this site would be to the community's groundwater if the equipment isn't monitored properly, and these ****ers won't spend JACK to monitor their site properly. Hard to respect this kind of outfit and makes the safety bull**** stick in my craw. 

Why do I care if I put in my 8 (plus portal to portal travel time, mileage and incidentals) and make my money either way? Because, this mindless safety bull**** isn't my work, I ENJOY my work (even when it's driving me crazy) and this pointless safety bull**** is just soul sucking drone duty, and it fails to acknowledge that whats really kept me safe all these years isn't their safety program IT'S ME. Now if anything ever goes wrong, I am sure they'll be all over how THAT WAS ALL ME.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I guess your story reinforces my last question. How do we impart the same safety awareness you have, implicitly, in other workers who we'll say "weren't born that way"?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

We have 45 employees (family). We have found the most effective way to *modify* any *behavior* is to make loving and caring about each other (customers and vendors also) a part of our company's culture. We put this above everything else. 

Stay with me here for a minute. I'll get to the safety part. 

It starts with having a written list of *core values* that the we all live by. Everyone sees and agrees to live by them. It's not just a list of platitudes hanging on the wall, but a list of values that we operate by. We refer to the list in everything we do, in every decision that we make and everyone at every level lives by it. I'll list them down below in a minute. 

We have safety meetings every week in every department. Safety is a part of our on boarding. Safety kits and safety manuals are issued to every field employee. PPE, safety glasses, ear protection, back protection, gloves, rain gear and a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting.

We approach safety from a "we want to do everything possible, at any cost, to protect you from getting injured, hurt and suffering the consequences of an injury". 

We don't look at it from a "what's this injury going to cost the company". We don't punish our employees when they get hurt. There is nothing in our safety program or in our culture on anything that comes from a punitive position. On the contrary, we do everything we can to help them regardless of whose fault it is and I assure you, it almost always is their fault. We are humans and we all make mistakes. 

We don't ever tell them it's their fault, we don't have to, they, and everyone else already knows it. Why pour salt in the wound? Pun intended. 

Instead, we pull together to help them out. We do everything we can to help them get better, back on their feet and back to work. Right now, as I write this, we have an electrician who injured his wrist at the gym (NOT ON THE JOB!) who is being driven around (with his doctors permission) by an entry level apprentice training him on doing maintenance to generators. At full pay. 

We've given desk jobs to injured employees and raised money for others over the years. We always do what is going to be in the best interest of the employee. 

As a result, I'm pretty confident even the smallest of injuries gets reported. We take a positive pro-active approach to incidents. What could we have done better to prevent the injury? What can we put in place to avoid having it happen again? 

We want our employees safe and healthy. We have free gym memberships, free healthy food in our pantry and most of all, a positive, friendly, happy environment to work in. Music in the offices, picnic tables, a barbecue, pizza parties, contests, a relaxed dress policy in the office, bonuses, incentives all in the spirit of doing what's best for our customers, co-workers and our community. 

I know all this sounds altruistic and to some a lot of BS. So, I invite anyone to visit and see for yourself how this approach works. Ride with a tech, sit in a meeting, chat with them in the break room, in the warehouse or parking lot and find out from them how this approach works. It really works.

Here's our Core Values:

THE 7 CORE VALUES OF XYZ. (Substituted real company name with XYZ:biggrin

1. Deliver “WOW” Through Service
Provide the best customer service by being unconventional and innovative. 

2. Be Honest With Our Words and Act With Integrity
Be honest with ourselves and others at all times. Integrity means thinking and doing what is right at all times, even when no one is looking.

3. Have Empathy and Be Caring of Others
Embrace the “Golden Rule”. Be understanding, caring and treat others as you would wish to be treated. 

4. Do More With Less
Always look for ways to improve by being resourceful, creative and efficient.

5. Pay Special Attention to Detail 
It’s the smallest of details that customers notice and will want to come back for more.

6. Build a Happy Team and Family Spirit
We often spend more time with each other than we do with our families. We encourage a warm and friendly atmosphere. Work together, play together…we are family! 

7. Pursue Growth and Learning
We will not stop in our efforts to be educated and to share our experiences for the benefits of others. We will encourage our team to grow both personally and professionally and help them unlock and utilize their full potential.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

splatz said:


> I guess for me, my JSAs are really not in meetings or paperwork, they occur before during and after my work, they are in my preparations, awareness of my situation at all times, common sense, experience, and qualification. I can honestly say I have never left one of their JSA meetings and said, "Boy, I'd have been taking an awful chance if that safety officer didn't point that out to me."


Most I talk to agree with what you are saying. The biggest issue is getting it documented.. As a buddy of mine said, we are tradesmen and if we didn't stop the job, re-assess and make adjustments as the job dictates we would be getting hurt and putting us and others at risk daily.. 

Safety is a culture and a mind set. Most companies do care about their workers and do what they can to ensure everyone leaves in the way they came to work. Some think that more paper will result in less accidents. 
Some companies have gone over board and are trying to remove common sense.. 
Some of it is also about changing the mindset of those that don't think an accident can happen to them. Is every one of them preventable? NO, they don't have a $hit happens column, but we all know sometimes it does.. But lots are preventable and can be avoided...


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

splatz said:


> I worry more about getting in an accident driving to and from this place. And ironically, the people managing the site, who would be AGHAST if I ran with scissors on their site, will press me to not cancel when there's snow and ice on the roads. Now you tell me, do you think their motive is really my safety, or something else? Hmmm, what could it be?$? They don't want to pay to cancel the confined space rescue crew that's scheduled.


^^^^THIS!!!!!^^^^ 1000 times this.......

Why would I take OSHA, the safety department or management seriously when I am REQUIRED to be at the job at 7AM regardless of weather, travel distance (always on my time) or anything else. 

These hypocrites tell me that they care about me and want me to go home to my family every day (I don't have any but that doesn't actually matter) then saddle me with the most idiotic safety rules that could ever possibly exist. 

Like requiring me to wear a hardhat, steel-toe boots, a safety vest, safety glasses and who knows what else when it's 115 degrees in the red-hot sun. 

About 2PM or so, I'm so fatigued from the boiling hot weather made even worse by all the safety crap that I can't even think straight while they sit on their fat lazy butts all day long in a climate-controlled office thinking up new innovative safety rules to ram on me. 

Is this safe? Actually truly safe? 

Not even close. Safety is nothing more than the vehicle these communists use to control.....errrr...... dominate me every second I'm on the job. 

After reading what I wrote, I realized it was a bit severe and I almost deleted it but the reason I decided to post it anyway is I have no use whatsoever for hypocrites and just about every safety department/agency I've ever worked under is chock full of them.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

If you need to sledge hammer safety home especially to mechanics and other people who seem to have a hard time understanding where there job ends and the electricians begins I suggest the arc flash horror video. Its like faces of death except the people survive and you get to see what they had to go through. Nice little tit bits of info in the video about the burns unit having a sound proof room for wound cleaning etc.
Dam I haven't seen that video for 3 years and it still turns my stomach thinking about it. 

You can leave a mcc door open and post a sign "free cookies inside" and you probably couldn't get a mechanic to enter.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Safety culture. Oh that. I never go outside in bare feet (most of the time). I wear leather flip flops. And Levi cargo shorts and a t-shirt. What were we talking about? Safety? Ok that. I am polite to the Hawaiian people. Especially the big semi angry half drunk men that mill about. Its safer that way.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

How about not receiving a safety bonus check at the end of the year if you reported an injury to the company or went to the doc for any reason. Classic.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Safety culture. Oh that. I never go outside in bare feet (most of the time). I wear leather flip flops. And Levi cargo shorts and a t-shirt. What were we talking about? Safety? Ok that. I am polite to the Hawaiian people. Especially the big semi angry half drunk men that mill about. Its safer that way.


You live on an erupting volcano.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

TGGT said:


> You live on an erupting volcano.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Pay attention class. You kids have done really well studying your silly ohms and frequency speeds , but some of you have neglected to read the geography book you were given at the beginning of the school year. Now let's all turn to page 67 and look at the picture of the Hawaiian Islands.










Who in the class is going to tell me the approximate mileage based on the scale given from Oahu to Kilauea Hawaii?

Oh, very good Cletis, You are right , it's over 200 miles in a straight line......


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

tggt said:


> you live on an erupting volcano.
> 
> Sent from my sm-g930t using tapatalk


not my volcano !!

brought to you by NOT MY Groundhoggers


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

wildleg said:


> not my volcano !!
> 
> brought to you by NOT MY Groundhoggers


Mike doesn't identify as living on an erupting volcano. He is transgeographic.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I worked in a chemical plant [until it went bankrupt] and ALL first aid supplies were in the main office in the safety guys office. To get a band aid meant paper work in abundance so no one asked, so that means no injuries! All this guy wanted to do was bust you for no seat belt so he could give you three days off, raining chemicals from the sixth floor of a unit to the ground, oh well.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I worked for a large organization that required driving
their vehicles.

Their official policy on "Safety" was to fire the employee
in the event of an auto accident (regardless of fault...
including if the employee was hit , bumped into backed 
into by the other driver or if it was an accident in the building
again regardless of the circumstances.

Negative reinforcement was the policy of the day.

Fire the employee and leave it up to the union to get 
the persons job back for them


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

lighterup said:


> I worked for a large organization that required driving
> their vehicles.
> 
> Their official policy on "Safety" was to fire the employee
> ...


 Good responsible employees are normally just as responsible outside of work so there not going to take the risk that they could be fired especially if there married with kids. 
The high skilled people can normally find work the easiest so you end up with a company full of lower skilled people or people who are tied to the job due to its location (close to home).


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I worked for a large organization that required driving
> their vehicles.
> 
> Their official policy on "Safety" was to fire the employee
> ...


The way of the coward. 

Wonder if it applied to executive management as well?


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Way too many guys I know carry small bandages in their wallet or tool bag because going to get one from the company requires paperwork and endless questions.


This things are going to happen and it is unfortunate that people are more or less required to cover it up.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

^^^ Yeah, when I see a sign at a facility that says we have worked a gazillion hours with no injuries I call bologna. If you’re working you’ll bleed.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

micromind said:


> *The way of the coward*.
> 
> Wonder if it applied to executive management as well?


No, not really. I was an assistant shop steward for a Teamsters local (445) when I hauled GM cars out of Tarraytown, NY back in the 70's. 

It was just the way it worked. I personally hit a mismarked bridge in the Chicago suburbs. Took the top off two cars. When I got back, I was discharged until we proved that the city paved under the bridge, but never changed the sign to indicate the new height. Which of course was lower then the 13'6" that I needed. 

I was off for two or three weeks when I was finally called back. I got the two or three weeks back pay and then took my three week vacation. :vs_laugh:

That's just how it worked in the union. Guilty until proven innocent and then brought back to whole when proven innocent. 

If they didn't fire you immediately, then they had no legal grounds to fire you later. I forget what the legal term for it is.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

what are these things you speak of ? these things you call "band aids" ?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Fancy term for a piece of paper towel held on with Scotch 33. Substitute 88 in winter.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> ^^^ Yeah, when I see a sign at a facility that says we have worked a gazillion hours with no injuries I call bologna. If you’re working you’ll bleed.


That's normally hours worked with out a *lost* time accident.

Last time I ops-ed I still came to work every day on restricted dutys so that didn't count towards lost time.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

gpop said:


> That's normally hours worked with out a *lost* time accident.
> 
> Last time I ops-ed I still came to work every day on restricted dutys so that didn't count towards lost time.


 Yeah you're probably right about that, my wording was off, but I still call bologna, when a guy sits in a chair doing busy work for 8 a day that's working the system.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

QMED said:


> How about not receiving a safety bonus check at the end of the year if you reported an injury to the company or went to the doc for any reason. Classic.



are you mad? every one knows that giving bonuses to anyone other than management is heresy :surprise:

seriously though even though that is a good idea there is far too many ways that it can be biased to kiss up to their toadies.
so its a ripe target for abuse.

the changes must be made in the business management schooling!
they general attitude is that laborers are an expense and expendable is incorrect.
same with the punitive minded management, when you include the injured party in the investigation and resolution of an incident their input could be valuable in making changes to equipment , procedures, and training.

while investigating an incident if it is found that the initial fault was in fact that of the injured what is in question, was the safety training sufficient? why did the injured get complacent or skip protocol?
is this grounds for discipline?
Hell No!
they have already been punished by the injury!
but this is a great opportunity to review where changes can be made to minimize or eliminate the accident.

but as it has been stated before unless management is trained correctly you will be dealing with Simon Legree everywhere you look!


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