# No-No Panels?



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

The only time I would suggest and/or require replacement is if there is clear evidence of a hazard (such as burnt buss, oxidation at terminations, etc...) and legally that's the only way I can.

I'm not equipped to evaluate the panels and OCPD's to determine if they present a hazard or whether they have reached their "end of life".

Pete


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> Easy Question.
> 
> What residential Panelboards do you automatically suggest replacement for?
> 
> ...



Personally I do not think you have the right to advise anyone as to which panels are good , and which are not !

Unless you are a licenced electrician , you should not be telling customers to replace their panels , or loadcenters .

If you wish to advise people , on these matters , you should have a qualified electrician with you !

I M O , your AUTHORITY does not give you the right to dictate something you know very little about !

Unless you are a qualified electrician , or at least a worker in the electrical trade , then I do not know why you are even on this forum !!!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Sq D QO, early 70's version. I've replaced four that looked like this. 





























This game is easy. I've work on all the panels in your post and none ever failed like these.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Wowser.... Beautiful pictures.... What else did it take out? Was the fault contained in the panel of did it continue out to a device like a range or dryer that caused the original issue?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

It seems like you are always asking "easy questions" and looking for absolute truths that you can use when doing home inspections. However the truth is nothing is absolute in our industry and there is no easy one size fits all answer to your questions. Every situation is different and takes a qualified person with years of experience to make the judgement calls you desire. You might get more respect here if you showed some to our trade and what we do.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

backstay said:


> Sq D QO, early 70's version. I've replaced four that looked like this. This game is easy. I've work on all the panels in your post and none ever failed like these.


But you did answer Bob's easy question. 

Hey Bob, recommend that any panels that look like the one Backstay posted should possibly be replaced.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> It seems like you are always asking "easy questions" and looking for absolute truths that you can use when doing home inspections. However the truth is nothing is absolute in our industry and there is no easy one size fits all answer to your questions. Every situation is different and takes a qualified person with years of experience to make the judgement calls you desire. You might get more respect here if you showed some to our trade and what we do.


Well said.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Did you try asking questions at HVAC Talk ?


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I hear that. AND what I am looking for is things that are CLUES and/or justification for calling for an electrician. In a perfect world people would hire an electrician, a Plumber, an appliance guy, etc.... that doesn't happen for a variety of reasons.

My "Absolute" is to call for an expert (you guys) to either say its OK (paranoid HI) or to agree thats it needs attention.

I am fine if a licensed, trained, experienced expert looks at something I have called out and says (writes) that based on his training and experience it is Safe and Serviceable. 

If an Electrician want to examine a FPE Stab-Lok panel (for example) and write that there is nothing wrong with it and it is safe and serviceable, I can't argue with them... I have put in writing my professional opinion, based on my training, and experience, and so have they, and they have a bigger license than mine.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

HVAC... been on another HVAC forum, the one you posted looks more interesting though.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

http://www.homeinspector.org/forum/


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> HVAC... been on another HVAC forum, the one you posted looks more interesting though.


 They are very nice over there


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

http://www.homeinspector.org/forum/

is run by ASHI, and although very good, it tends to be a touch elitist and too polite for me. I would much rather get flamed by real experts that teach me something than get empty congrats on seeing the obvious.

I prefer

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/

as you get a wider cross section of inspectors, including a lot of code and municipal inspectors as well.

but push to shove, I prefer the specif industry forums...Electrical, heating, cooling, plumbing, structure, roof, etc....


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> With some trepidation I am posting our "Hazardous Electrical Panel" flyer as it provides some of our reasoning and background information. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is welcomed. (If you want a clean PDF copy, email me directly)


Your "reference" is a for profit webpage founded by a plumber and much of the information on that page has been disproved and some of the photos have been doctored. Calling out a panel by brand only is not justified, age maybe but the panel (regardless of manufacturer) should be inspected by a qualified electrician.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What are you selling, Bob, a quick in/out to facilitate a real estate transaction or a detailed analysis of the overall health of the building?

Seems to me you're overthinking this. If you have reason to suspect a panel, make note of it in your report. Simple. 

If I hire a home inspector, I don't expect the guy to know everything.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

His CV does not read like that of a plumber.

http://inspectapedia.com/Admin/DJF-CV.htm
http://inspectapedia.com/Admin/danbio.htm

He has more PUBLISHED & REVIEWED publications, articles, books and more than will fit on several pages. He has testified before many courts and CPSC as an expert witness.

For Profit. Absolutely! So am I.

I think he is a (very) valid reference.

Are there "OK" FPE Stab-Lok panels, sure... but I am not going to say they are anything but suspect, and have my clients ask for an electrician to bless it in writing.


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## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

the Bulldog Pushmatic seemed to be a well designed load center...the only bolt-on residential breaker I can think of off the top of my head


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> His CV does not read like that of a plumber.
> 
> http://inspectapedia.com/Admin/DJF-CV.htm
> http://inspectapedia.com/Admin/danbio.htm
> ...


Are you aware of the recalls and safety notices put out by GE and SQ-D over the last few years? You should add all GE and SQ-D panels to your list. There should be a website slamming them too, oh wait, they are still in business and would defend themselves from any such action. 

What about the thousands of counterfiet QO breakers? Ever check for those?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> Wowser.... Beautiful pictures.... What else did it take out? Was the fault contained in the panel of did it continue out to a device like a range or dryer that caused the original issue?


The "fault" wasn't a device, it was(I believe) a bad breaker/stab connection. And for the most part was contained. Some have burnt the wiring a foot above the panel.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I work with apartment buildings that have 100's of FPE and Zinsco. The failure rate is no worse than other brands. The problem I have with them is with the advent of AFCI circuit breakers and the requirement to install them upon replacement of receptacles, addition of new circuits, or modifications, there isn't much of an alternative other than replacement. 

I would stick to obvious damage, doubled up circuits under a single terminal (for those that don't allow it), those sorts of issues. I usually would recommend the replacement of the panel to a customer if they knew that they were about to do some serious renovations.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> I work with apartment buildings that have 100's of FPE and Zinsco. The failure rate is no worse than other brands. The problem I have with them is with the advent of AFCI circuit breakers and the requirement to install them upon replacement of receptacles, addition of new circuits, or modifications, there isn't much of an alternative other than replacement.
> 
> I would stick to obvious damage, doubled up circuits under a single terminal (for those that don't allow it), those sorts of issues. I usually would recommend the replacement of the panel to a customer if they knew that they were about to do some serious renovations.


Very true. Sometimes you can't disagree with a customer who says, "If it aint broke, don't fix it". Panel upgrades during renovations are just that - upgrades - and it's a good time to get rid of the chaos caused by DIYers, handymen, HVAC guys, spa guys, etc. over the years by simple panel replacement.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

tetheredelec said:


> That problem with FPE is that you don't know if it's working or not.
> 
> Yes, it may be "on", but the real function is to trip in the case of an overload or short circuit. Do you know if it's going to trip? If not, then the whole "If it ain't broke..." thing doesn't apply.


You could say that about any breaker.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

tetheredelec said:


> That problem with FPE is that you don't know if it's working or not. Yes, it may be "on", but the real function is to trip in the case of an overload or short circuit. Do you know if it's going to trip? If not, then the whole "If it ain't broke..." thing doesn't apply.


And what's the failure rate of any other brand breaker after 15-20 years?
We all realize that the internals get gummy with the grease drying out. 
Eyeballing it is never a sure thing and who tests every breaker we come across?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

tetheredelec said:


> Yes, you can. But which one is known for not tripping when it's supposed to?
> 
> This is where the discretion is involved. How does the panel look? How does the service look? Is it underpowered? Is the panel full? Etc. etc. It all goes into making the decision.


Believe me, I'm not defending FPE. They were poorly designed and manufactured from day one. I doubt, however, that any breaker in an older panel operates the same as it did fresh out of the box.

You're right, though. You look at a number of things before recommending a panel change and, if it's an old FPE panel, that could be the deal clincher right there.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> Very true. Sometimes you can't disagree with a customer who says, "If it aint broke, don't fix it".


I just let them hold the wires that I ripped out under their cottage after smelling "something funny" They also enjoyed the light show when I found out one was still live and the FPE Stab-LOK wouldn't trip. LOL



Thankfully it melted the water pipe and extinguished it



This one was still live and gave a great light show to those watching, not so much for the pliers that I tried cutting it with. The proxy pen never even went off for some reason- it's now in the local electronics recycling bin.:laughing:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I have seen fuse panels in better condition than modern breaker panels.
Bob, what do you write up when the house has a fuse panel?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Fuse panels suffer from the same problems as the FPE. No place for arc faults. No place for any new circuits really. Insurance companies seem to be pushing replacements for these lately. Change policies and whammo! Any savings you had are gone. Fuses work well but the panels that they are in aren't practical for today.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

I like many have already posted, dont have a great answer for you, situation dictates. In my area insurance companies are making people replace the old panels you mentioned (atleast if they want to be insured).


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I will never figure out why you guys bust this guys balls. He is only making an effort to do something right.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I will never figure out why you guys bust this guys balls. He is only making an effort to do something right.


I don't disagree with you but handing out paperwork condemning only certain panels isn't the right thing. Without proper testing (which would likely cost more than a replacement) one can't just deem a certain brand more hazardous than the next.

I get quite a few calls from prospective home buyers and sellers asking if the FPE panel is a fire hazard. They usually want my answer since I am an almighty inspector:no: This is usually driven by a home inspector. IMHO, testing is the only way to prove a hazard unless something is painfully obvious.

Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> Personally I do not think you have the right to advise anyone as to which panels are good , and which are not !
> 
> Unless you are a licenced electrician , you should not be telling customers to replace their panels , or loadcenters .
> 
> ...



IMO I think you should loose the attitude and I am willing to bet mojo money you don't even know why one of those panels lost a UL listing to begin with. By your confidence you seem to be an expert in this field. Then, I don't think its to professional advising another professional not to call out panels that are known to be dangerous. And last I checked, technically, a licensed electrician isn't a UL certification laboratory nor an expert on the internal operations of a molded case circuit breaker. I also bet you don't even have the testing equipment or know the requirements in the certifications of panel boards or molded case breakers. Do even know what the guts of those breaker look like? If I am correct electricians just install and connect the wires on this equipment, not gather intimate details on their reliability or internal operation. So, technically, unless you are a certified specialist in this specific area with the proper testing equipment your opinion holds as much weight as Inspector Sisson. He is just as qualified as you to give an opinion on the replacement of an electrical panel, if not more so judging by your remarks. So please don't be hostile toward him. You are just setting HIs back further when they need this type of knowledge more than ever. 


Inspector Sisson is also doing what all inspectors should do and ask on a professional forum that even states in the rules they are allowed to post. Mr Sisson is more than welcome here.


Mr. Sisson, please ignore this mans post and keep asking questions that are essential to your inspections, as you already are doing. You are very talented in home inspections. You are doing the right thing by posting on here. Thank you


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Jack Legg said:


> the Bulldog Pushmatic seemed to be a well designed load center...the only bolt-on residential breaker I can think of off the top of my head


Yahhh, but did you know they lack magnetic trip? 

To Inspector Sission: Bulldog panels lack magnetic trip and are thermal only, so faults will cause a lot more carnage. There is however no evidence that these breakers fail more than others of the same age so in theory they are just as reliable in preventing wires from overheating as other older breakers. But, with the lack of magnetic trip, it is a layer of safety that's not there. 

FPE is an absolute replacer. Its been proven and documented FPE cheated on their UL listing. Drill open any FPE breaker and you will see a myriad of horrible engineering. FPE breakers are known not to trip to the point the insulation will melt off the wire. Their failure rate is much higher than breakers of comparable age. This is documented and proven. The stab design is another issue. It often becomes loose and arcs. For the sake of the argument advise all FPE be replaced, and to be honest Mr. Sisson those panels are such crap I wouldn't even recommend you taking the covers off them. 


Zinsco is another one I recommend calling out. Not as much documentation as FPE to back them up as unreliable but from what I have heard the grease in Zinsco breakers dries up jamming the mechanism. Buss bar burn ups are another issue. Good idea to point put as a potential hazard. 


Also of note, some older Challenger panels are FPE clones which I would be calling out as well. The difficult part is knowing which ones to call out, but worse comes to worse you can at least make note that some older challenger panels are FPE made.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> It seems like you are always asking "easy questions" and looking for absolute truths that you can use when doing home inspections. However the truth is nothing is absolute in our industry and there is no easy one size fits all answer to your questions. Every situation is different and takes a qualified person with years of experience to make the judgement calls you desire. You might get more respect here if you showed some to our trade and what we do.


Yahhh, an absolute truth is FPE cheated on their UL listing. What more are you looking for?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> Are you aware of the recalls and safety notices put out by GE and SQ-D over the last few years? You should add all GE and SQ-D panels to your list. There should be a website slamming them too, oh wait, they are still in business and would defend themselves from any such action.
> 
> What about the thousands of counterfiet QO breakers? Ever check for those?


Why not tell him what to look for so he doesn't end up calling out all panels? You have the knowledge


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I will never figure out why you guys bust this guys balls. He is only making an effort to do something right.


I will never figure it out either. I am well aware HIs could use a tremendous amount of education in electrical since there are many hazards they fail to call out. But keeping these guys ignorant is a crime in itself since with most homes the only inspection they will ever receive is by an HI. They are frequently put in the position where they are the only ones who can call out known hazards, some of which can cost life. It is for this reason HIs be educated as much as possible as what to look out for. In a perfect world homes would be inspected by a licensed electrician, HVAC contractor, roofer, carpenter, structural engineer, plumber, fire marshal, mason, lead/chemical testing specialists ect all of whom have tested for advanced knowledge of applicable codes and have years of experience in their respected fields. But in the real world that entire burden of responsibility is placed on a Home inspector.

I am well aware other professionals are angry at what HIs fail to call out or call out that's a none issue. I to am angry that hazards aren't called out, and I have vented about it over and over but its not the HIs personally rather the training they receive. We are all as competent as the knowledge we are taught. Harassing this guy does nothing other than inflate a serious gap in the system that needs to be corrected. A gap that can cost personal property or life. To all of you who belittle this guy shame on you. Your setting your own trade back. Shame on you. 



So far things are starting to turn around. Internachi members are no longer harassing code experts and electricians like they used to. Inspection news has more and more code experts posting than ever before. So far HIs are taking that knowledge in, learning and applying it to the job. Im seeing it first hand on those forums. I frequently visit and share my knowledge because its a good idea, especially the fact I could save a home from burning down. I see it as a contribution to the trade since HIs are an extension of it. 

Mr. Sisson is an HI with brains. He is right where all HIs should be, learning from the experts. Perhaps if we educated HIs more we would dislike them less. These are people who are willing to learn.

And if anyone gets butt hurt from my comments defending this guy perhaps you need to re-examine why you choose to be an electrician in the first place. Or look at it this way, the more actual code violations these guys call out the more money you pocket. 











Pete m. said:


> I don't disagree with you but handing out paperwork condemning only certain panels isn't the right thing. Without proper testing (which would likely cost more than a replacement) one can't just deem a certain brand more hazardous than the next.
> 
> I get quite a few calls from prospective home buyers and sellers asking if the FPE panel is a fire hazard. They usually want my answer since I am an almighty inspector:no: This is usually driven by a home inspector. IMHO, testing is the only way to prove a hazard unless something is painfully obvious.
> 
> Pete


So its right keeping a known panel that violated UL in service? By the way exerts have tested that known panel and written reports well worth reading up on. It makes no sense testing each individual panel when the batch of panels already tested are identical to what is in service.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

meadow said:


> Yahhh, an absolute truth is FPE cheated on their UL listing. What more are you looking for?



How about a link to this statement?

This is the best I could find and it doesn't say they cheated. 


http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/New...nd-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers/


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## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

I had an FPE weld closed with a short. Bad insulation on the wire rubbed on the box. Made quite the spark show.


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Wirenuting said:


> And what's the failure rate of any other brand breaker after 15-20 years?
> We all realize that the internals get gummy with the grease drying out.
> Eyeballing it is never a sure thing and who tests every breaker we come across?


 The manufacturers and code authorities need to talk about this. I've heard more than one and more than two experienced field people who say they're seeing similar failure to trip rates between FPE breakers and everything else of the same age. If the world needs to do otherwise silly things like put breakers on a 20-year replace/refurbish cycle, or design them for longer life, or install a safe self-test mechanism, or require main breakers in all panels, or put fuses inside the breakers as a backup, that needs to be one of the loudest conversations in the industry.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Almost always lurkin said:


> The manufacturers and code authorities need to talk about this.


The manufactures have a very large presence on the panel.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> How about a link to this statement?
> 
> This is the best I could find and it doesn't say they cheated.
> 
> ...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=FPE+cheated+on+UL+listing+


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is a good one by an expert:

_"Aronstein said Federal Pacific Electric cheated on testing and inspections decades ago to achieve approval from Underwriters Laboratories, a nonprofit product safety testing and certification organization. Nearly every item using or carrying electricity sold in the United States is tested and verified by UL._
_“They were applying UL labels to products that did not meet the UL requirement,” said Aronstein."_



http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investiga...it-Breakers-Fire-Danger-I-Team-149541115.html


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

meadow said:


> So its right keeping a known panel that violated UL in service?


No it wouldn't be. Can you please show me where this is documented? As far as I know it was some 2 pole breakers that didn't meet UL criteria (at least as far as FPE is concerned).




> By the way experts have tested that known panel and written reports well worth reading up on.


I haven't read any reports by experts (doesn't mean they don't exist, it only means I haven't seen them).



> It makes no sense testing each individual panel when the batch of panels already tested are identical to what is in service.


How does it make sense to _assume_ something is defective?

I'm not arguing with you in the least. I'm asking you to help me educate myself.

Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> No it wouldn't be. Can you please show me where this is documented? As far as I know it was some 2 pole breakers that didn't meet UL criteria (at least as far as FPE is concerned).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Id read up on Jesse Aronstein, who has done a tremendous amount of testing on FPE breakers. I will see if I can dig something up. 

As for FPE, assuming they are defective is the right notion since the invalid UL label means that anything could have been put on the market by FPE. 

You are correct that FPE had made a statement that their 2 pole breakers might have a flaw, but with independent testing its has been shown their entire breaker line was rigged (the residential and light commercial line anyway).


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is one good PDF, well worth the read:

http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Hazards-111202_small.pdf


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> Here is a good one by an expert:
> 
> _"Aronstein said Federal Pacific Electric cheated on testing and inspections decades ago to achieve approval from Underwriters Laboratories, a nonprofit product safety testing and certification organization. Nearly every item using or carrying electricity sold in the United States is tested and verified by UL._
> _“They were applying UL labels to products that did not meet the UL requirement,” said Aronstein."_
> ...



'in Nice

and how many alphabet oversight orgs do we have now? IAEI, NECA, CSPC, NFPA, NEC ....ets etc 

Maybe if some of these folks *did their jobs* _(read>confront manufacturers)_ we wouldn't be getting the short end of the litigant stick for their mistakes, fakes, and 3rd world sweat shop products, and folks like Bob wouldn't need to dwell in the trenches to get the_ real_ skinny on 'em all

~CS~


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## FlyingSparks (Dec 10, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> 'in Nice
> 
> and how many alphabet oversight orgs do we have now? IAEI, NECA, CSPC, NFPA, NEC ....ets etc
> 
> ...


The NFPA publishes the NEC.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

meadow said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=FPE+cheated+on+UL+listing+


Ok smart a$$, I can type into google also. 
In fact that's were I found the link I posted. 
I just didn't bother with the kiddy script to self type. 

You posted someone's opinion and that doesn't make the cut. 
Please post a link that shows were any authority has stated that they cheated.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> 'in Nice
> 
> and how many alphabet oversight orgs do we have now? IAEI, NECA, CSPC, NFPA, NEC ....ets etc
> 
> ...


The problem is now one wants to step forward and issue a recall. No one wants to face the music.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Ok smart a$$, I can type into google also.
> In fact that's were I found the link I posted.
> I just didn't bother with the kiddy script to self type.
> 
> ...


Jesse Aronstein is an authority in that he is a forensics expert. Also read the news paper article in the PDF in my last link. The evidence is overwhelming.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is a screen shot of it black and white:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Notice the 2 give aways:

1. used deceptive methods to gain UL label

2. Lost UL label


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

meadow said:


> Jesse Aronstein is an authority in that he is a forensics expert. Also read the news paper article in the PDF in my last link. The evidence is overwhelming.


Before I posted my link, I took the time to read the same items. 

I'll look harder tonight, but I have never seen any definitive report about them. 

I'm not going to say that Residential FPE and others have some issues. But IMHO, a bad rap does not give reason to replace equipment all because of its name. 

HI's should be able to open a panel, off allowed, and condemn things based on what they know and see. Not by what they believe others believe.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Before I posted my link, I took the time to read the same items.
> 
> I'll look harder tonight, but I have never seen any definitive report about them.
> 
> ...


 
Thinking FPE breakers aren't problematic is keeping a dangerous product in service. FPE committed a crime, and all those who down play it aren't doing anyone a favor. If you really want to see for yourself drill them open, or just short circuit one out. You will see what others are talking about. These breakers don't have a bad rap just because. They have it for a reason.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thinking FPE breakers aren't problematic is keeping a dangerous product in service. FPE committed a crime, and all those who down play it aren't doing anyone a favor. If you really want to see for yourself drill them open, or just short circuit one out. You will see what others are talking about. These breakers don't have a bad rap just because. They have it for a reason.


I took the time to read the whole thing (the link you provided me from the expert).

I "get it" that he has done his own tests. I also "get it" that he is considered an "expert witness" (damn.. with that many letters behind my name I could be a rocket surgeon!!)

What I don't get is that during all the testing he did he couldn't convince the CPSC (which sanctioned at least some of his testing) to issue a recall.

I can't, in the position I'm in, tell someone that their electrical service will burn them to death in their sleep unless I have concrete evidence to prove it.

Nothing I've read so far gives me that. As an electrician, I have experienced the FPE "no-trip" syndrome. But, again, I can't mandate replacement unless I can prove imminent hazard.

I do however, thank you for posting the links!! I'm serious about what I do and I truly care about folk's safety.

Pete


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> No it wouldn't be. Can you please show me where this is documented? *As far as I know it was some 2 pole breakers that didn't meet UL criteria (at least as far as FPE is concerned).
> *
> *How does it make sense to assume something is defective?*
> 
> ...





meadow said:


> *As for FPE, assuming they are defective is the right notion since the invalid UL label means that anything could have been put on the market by FPE. *
> 
> You are correct that FPE had made a statement that their 2 pole breakers might have a flaw, but with independent testing its has been shown their entire breaker line was rigged (the residential *and light commercial line anyway)*.





meadow said:


> *Thinking FPE breakers aren't problematic is keeping a dangerous product in service. FPE committed a crime,* and all those who down play it aren't doing anyone a favor. If you really want to see for yourself drill them open, or just short circuit one out. You will see what others are talking about. *These breakers don't have a bad rap just because. They have it for a reason.*



I had to post this, as proof that FPE really does have issues:










Like I said before in another thread where I posted that label, the credibility of a company is suspect when they issue the above sticker rather than recalling ALL of the "(could contain) *faulty circuit breakers*". I call that negligent and borderline criminal. 

Finally, having been in several locations with FPE (StabLoc) panels, I have personally seen and experienced the failures including failure to trip, jamming (both on and off), one pole of a two-pole breaker staying closed, and a few bus bar explosions and burn ups. And the worst problem: breakers literally falling out of the bus when the dead front was removed. 

The breakers and bus were a piss-poor design, and most FPE stabloc panels have very tight (and non-Code-compliant) wiring space. 

Those and Zinsco both deserve the very bad reputations they have for good reasons. (Zinsco's main faults are the cheap aluminimum alloy bus bars and also failure to trip due to poor trip mechanism design...not quite as bad as FPEs' but close.)


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## power (Feb 27, 2012)

I respectfully don't agree with many of the answers being posted in this thread. It seems to be talking more about a Home Inspector's right to involvement in observing the general condition of a home's electrical system than it does the original questions at the onset of this thread! An exemplary home inspector _*needs*_ to understand area's of a home that may require attention by various qualified/licenced trades. Otherwise, his business is not providing the services that homeowners have paid for. When a homeowner purchases the services of a Home Inspection company, they entrust the home inspector to appraise the general condition of the home's "health" upon it's prospective purchase. The homeowners should rightfully expect that a home inspector advises them about a potentially dangerous panelboard. Having said this, a home inspector _*needs*_ to have a basic idea of a panelboard's condition in order to make such a recommendation. Naturally, I hope no home inspector would propose replacement of equipment if he is financially benefiting from it.

*You asked "What type of panel should I suggest?"* 
In my opinion, that should be left to the electrical contractor. If you start proposing brands and manufacturers, the homeowner will advise their electrical contractor accordingly. The blind don't lead the blind. Don't suggest any brand/manufacturer names......leave that to an experienced residential electrical contractor.

_*You mentioned FPE, BullDog, and Zinsco as "marked"?*_
I have noticed that FPE produces an economical line of residential panels and breakers, and I am personally a little skeptical of them. Bulldog and Zinsco? I have no comment as I've not worked with them. 

However, as shown in recent pictures, even Square D can burn up! Some of these fires may have occurred as a result of improper installation, the homeowner/s improperly seating the breakers into the buss in DIY jobs, aluminum wiring relaxing under the tension of the once-tight screws....it could go on and on. 

_*What (polite) wording do you use to recommend attention?*_
Unless there is something specific that you can point to, there is not much basis for a recommendation. 
Here are some "tell tale" indications that an electrical contractor should be recommended:
Burn marks, panelboard's full of knock-outs with no fillers, missing panelboard covers, panelboards that are full with no more available breaker spaces, nearby branch circuit wiring (Romex) that's not stapled or supported neatly, nearby open wiring/splices without a junction box, the absence of a ground conductor (usually #6 green or bare copper extending to the supply side of the incoming utility water line), Romex tied into the main service entrance side of the combination panel. While not all of these deficiencies are directly related to the panel, poor workmanship surrounding the general local area of the panel might raise suspicion.

As was mentioned in another post, age is not always a good barometer to prompt a recommendation. Some older panels are still healthy and safe.

Anyway, that's my "2-cents". I do feel that honest Home Inspection companies can assist with making dwelling units safer. Many of these old houses needed new panels years ago, and are still being neglected. A responsible home inspector can contribute to the overall safety of the industry. While not their intent, they also keep our residential business's in business!


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I will never figure out why you guys bust this guys balls. He is only making an effort to do something right.


Exactly. People on this forum get bent out of shape over erroneous reports by uninformed home inspectors, and now when one of them wants to inform himself, they get butthurt. :blink:

Seriously, what is the big deal? Is it really the end of the world to tell him "If FPE, strongly recommend evaluation by licensed EC due to history of failures and recalls" The EC can determine what to do once he gets there. Are people nostalgic for old garbage panels or something?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> What I don't get is that during all the testing he did he couldn't convince the CPSC (which sanctioned at least some of his testing) to issue a recall.
> 
> 
> Pete


The CSPC were involved in stonewalling these people Pete>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr_f2IzquB0

They were shown bona fide PROOF an electrical product did not do what it claimed to , yet did not respond

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> The problem is now one wants to step forward and issue a recall. No one wants to face the music.


What prompts a recall? Wouldn't a class action suit is a motivator

I know of lawyers on both sides of the pond that can not create a class action suit in the USA , because we've changed the way we _address_ and _justify_ a CAS's here of late.

There appears to be an influence .....:whistling2:

Take the recalls we DO have _(many posted @ ET)_ , where the manufacturers call ALL the shots, including what THEY pay US to mitigate their mistake , which WE are liable for on notification

Btw, I refuse their registerd mailings on principal .

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> I took the time to read the whole thing (the link you provided me from the expert).
> 
> I "get it" that he has done his own tests. I also "get it" that he is considered an "expert witness" (damn.. with that many letters behind my name I could be a rocket surgeon!!)
> 
> ...



Also read the news paper clipping at the end of the PDF, where its openly mentioned by reliance that FPE's entire financial success was through materially deceptive practices. Not doubting Aronstein's work, but IMO that is actual black and white proof FPE was trying to cover defective breakers. If your products actually works, why would you go to the trouble to create a system of fraud to cover up something? 

I also want to point out that the commission staff Engineer who mentions that FPE rigged test equipment is probably telling the truth. I know I have nothing to back that statement up but I have heard the same from others who have given their opinions on FPE. 


You are correct CPSC never issued a recall, but who knows how or why they choose not to. Maybe they have certain criteria, they might argue Aronstein's samples were too random or believe someone else story. Truth is I have no clue on this one. Those at affiliated with FPE at the time might not want to say anything either, given it being a black eye for them. Admitting they were scammed by FPE makes fingers point at them as well, 'why didn't you catch them' type deal. However when you think about those who have the power to issue a recall aren't electricians or electrical testing specialists. They just go by what story looks juicer. That's why about the only people who can say these are defective panels are electricians, engineers and electrical specialists. 


I agree there is no major authority like CPSC saying these need to be replaced, but IMO archived clippings admitting their was listing fraud along with so many experts claiming personal witness is enough for me.


To any electrician who wants to see it for themselves: test or examine these breakers yourself. Short circuit a Siemens or GE breaker, then do it to an FPE and I can guarantee you a huge difference. Hook these up to welders or space heaters if you have the time. Drill them open; which gives away all the proof. 

The fulcrum/pivot on these breakers is a coiled spring, not greased plastic or metal.:blink: :blink: That in itself violates common mechanical engineering. Why would you use a coiled spring as a pivot in say scissors, a wind mill or car axial? You wouldn't because it would seize up. The magnetic pole piece in these breakers isn't mobile like on every other breaker. The contacts in the arc chute have two sides, a rippled side and a flat side. The rippled side is supposed to weld to conductive parts while the flat side makes makes/breaks electrical contact. I frequently see errors where the flat side is welded with the rippled side making/breaking. That is a recipe for poor contact which can weld together. The copper braid attached to the thermal strip is often much to long bumping up against it shorting (bypassing) part of it out which will change trip curves. The riveted hinge belonging to the trip piece that leans up against the thermal piece often rusts seizing up. Judging by the simple looking thermal bar I doubt its ambient (enclosure) compensated either. (GE has good patents explaining how ambient compensation works). The 2 poles have an internal common trip mechanism that can bind jamming one of the poles. Even trying to push the handle off wont do it., that pole will literally seize up. Drill open a 2 pole and you can get it to happen by tripping the first pole a few times, that common trip will literally bind upward. 

How do I know this? Ive drilled boxes of these open out of curiosity from panels being pulled out of apartment complexes. Its crap engineering inside them with half baked quality control. When that part is figured out it makes sense why FPE had to rig test results. Being so poorly designed meant manufacturing costs were low which meant a cheap product. Because it was so cheap with an NEC recognized label FPE caught on with huge popularity. Along with the aluminum wire meant for over head lines.


Now we have a slew of dangerous panels in service. I agree with you Pete M. Im not arguing, you bring up a good point. Im on your side. But the part that erks me is people who advise them as needing replacement are being called out as just looking for business or ill informed which is not the case. Electricians and HIs who call theses out have good intentions. But then you have people like this who know squat preaching to the general public thinking they have figured it all out  (Last I checked the FBI wasn't in the business testing breakers):


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Welcome to the Safety Business , 10% safety, 90% business....~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> The CSPC were involved in stonewalling these people Pete>
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr_f2IzquB0
> 
> ...




That video is gold. His invention needs to be improved upon, since it actually stops the source of electrical fires in its tracks. His idea should be on every electrical connection at the very least in all residential applications. But, I agree with you, large entities in power play cards on their own terms. :no:
















chicken steve said:


> What prompts a recall? Wouldn't a class action suit is a motivator
> 
> 
> I know of lawyers on both sides of the pond that can not create a class action suit in the USA , because we've changed the way we _address_ and _justify_ a CAS's here of late.
> ...




The said part is someone needs to issue a recall. Because unfortunately plane Jane people who don't even know what the guts of these breakers look like are out there preaching to the public its a conspiracy by HIs and sparkies to make money:no:. (Im not referencing anyone on ET, rather every time I go to news sights where its advised to check your panel the comments section is littered with self proclaimed intellectuals) 

You know this system well Their is indeed influence, and in general people just aren't experts. The CPSC doesn't know which side to take in the matter because its just not their ball game.

This statement in itself blows me away "According to Reliance, failures of these FPE breakers to comply with certain UL calibration requirements do not create a hazard in the household environment." Well their you have it. Omitting standards at your own liking isn't a hazard:no: Guess I am in the position of authority to wire homes as I see fit since I can now hand pick what I want to follow from the NEC.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> Notice the 2 give aways:
> 
> 1. used deceptive methods to gain UL label
> 
> 2. Lost UL label


3. Regained UL label. 

There was a period of a couple years where the company changed hands several times as you mentioned, Reliance was the one that called them out after they had purchased that division and found the lapse in UL documentation and testing required. All the UL certification before and after that time period was legit.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> 3. Regained UL label.
> 
> There was a period of a couple years where the company changed hands several times as you mentioned, Reliance was the one that called them out after they had purchased that division and found the lapse in UL documentation and testing required. All the UL certification before and after that time period was legit.


But my understanding it only applied to FPE breakers after the lapse was discovered? I know their was a period when the were busted and immediately started to make breakers that were OK right before they closed their doors?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> But my understanding it only applied to FPE breakers after the lapse was discovered? I know their was a period when the were busted and immediately started to make breakers that were OK right before they closed their doors?


They "busted" themselves and the issue had nothing to do with how the breakers were made, it was the on going UL 489 certification tests during that time period that were in question. They probally should have issued a recall for breakers made during that time period. However they did suspend manufacturing the breakers in question until the issues with UL were resolved. 

Yes they kep making the same breakers and got the UL testing back in order and made them for years, then sold the plant to Challanger in 1986 who made the same breakers until they sold the patent and tooling to American that made them here in NC until about 2008 when they closed the plant. I happen to know the guy that was the plant manager there and recently had a long talk about the history of the stab lok product line.


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

For whatever it is or isn't worth, one of the news stories has this: "Not every Federal Pacific Electric breaker will fail to trip if overloaded and, after the company was bought in the early 1980s, the breakers were modified and did legitimately pass UL inspection. According to Aronstein, the safer, working breakers are marked with a white dot on the on/off toggle switch. He also suggested that anyone with a Federal Pacific Electric breaker contact an electrician to determine if it should be replaced."


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Zog said:


> 3. Regained UL label.
> 
> There was a period of a couple years where the company changed hands several times as you mentioned, Reliance was the one that called them out after they had purchased that division and found the lapse in UL documentation and testing required. All the UL certification before and after that time period was legit.


Would you take a chance Zog?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> They "busted" themselves and the issue had nothing to do with how the breakers were made, it was the on going UL 489 certification tests during that time period that were in question. They probally should have issued a recall for breakers made during that time period. However they did suspend manufacturing the breakers in question until the issues with UL were resolved.
> 
> Yes they kep making the same breakers and got the UL testing back in order and made them for years, then sold the plant to Challanger in 1986 who made the same breakers until they sold the patent and tooling to American that made them here in NC until about 2008 when they closed the plant. I happen to know the guy that was the plant manager there and recently had a long talk about the history of the stab lok product line.


 I disagree. Drill open any resi 70s FPE and its apparent their were design issues, especially the 2 pole breakers with their common trip. It would explain why they rigged the UL results because they knew they would not pass all of them. I agree they should have issued a recall on their red handle breakers. 

After manufacturing was resumed, did they tweak the design of the breakers? 

BTW, I am not doubting you, all great info. But would you happen to have any links to the info?

Also I would be really interested in the history of stab locks Still learning:thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> For whatever it is or isn't worth, one of the news stories has this: "Not every Federal Pacific Electric breaker will fail to trip if overloaded and, after the company was bought in the early 1980s, the breakers were modified and did legitimately pass UL inspection. According to Aronstein, the safer, working breakers are marked with a white dot on the on/off toggle switch. He also suggested that anyone with a Federal Pacific Electric breaker contact an electrician to determine if it should be replaced."


Good point! Well worth it. IMO, the worst offenders were the 70s red nosed breakers. I have heard the white dot thing, as well as the 80s white nosed breakers being much better made. Zog would know more about them. All the ones I have drilled open were early 70s versions that were crap.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I see i'm in good company with sorts who just have to investigate, physically check out the _'guts'_ of a product. :thumbsup:

It's nice to see some concern about products we install, but we shouldn't be the sole _unbiased _source , especially for the likes of an honest HI inquiring in sincerity here @ ET

~CS~


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I see i'm in good company with sorts who just have to investigate, physically check out the _'guts'_ of a product. :thumbsup:
> 
> It's nice to see some concern about products we install, but we shouldn't be the sole _unbiased _source , especially for the likes of an honest HI inquiring in sincerity here @ ET
> 
> ~CS~


I do believe that Bob (aka.. the HI) is not doing wrong. I appreciate the fact that he has the stones to come to this site and take the (mostly undeserved) lambasting that he does.

Pete


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I love the part where you say you refuse to open FPE, Zinsco or Bulldog panels. As if there is a massive ball of fire waiting behind the deadfront. Opening any of those panels is no different than the next.

I appreciate what you're doing Bob. You're generating gravy jobs for us replacing panels that probably have nothing wrong with them. We even keep the death breakers in stock and sell them at a premium when the oppertunity arrises. Truly a win win for us.

I saw an old ivory receptacle burnt up the other day. I think you should have a panflet done up for those. They really should be replaced with modern, safer Decora style receptacles.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jza said:


> We even keep the *death breakers *in stock and sell them at a premium when the oppertunity arrises. Truly a win win for us.
> .


:lol:~CS~:lol:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I see i'm in good company with sorts who just have to investigate, physically check out the _'guts'_ of a product. :thumbsup:
> 
> It's nice to see some concern about products we install, but we shouldn't be the sole _unbiased _source , especially for the likes of an honest HI inquiring in sincerity here @ ET
> 
> ~CS~


 
Thanks And FWIW, yes I have drilled out the modern ones to :laughing:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thanks And FWIW, yes I have drilled out the modern ones to :laughing:


Did you notice significant differences? 

Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

jza said:


> I love the part where you say you refuse to open FPE, Zinsco or Bulldog panels. As if there is a massive ball of fire waiting behind the deadfront. Opening any of those panels is no different than the next.
> 
> I appreciate what you're doing Bob. You're generating gravy jobs for us replacing panels that probably have nothing wrong with them. We even keep the death breakers in stock and sell them at a premium when the oppertunity arrises. Truly a win win for us.
> 
> I saw an old ivory receptacle burnt up the other day. I think you should have a panflet done up for those. They really should be replaced with modern, safer Decora style receptacles.


Its this that just smashes me to pieces :no:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> Did you notice significant differences?
> 
> Pete


They are +100,000,000,000,000x better than FPE. :notworthy:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well it's kinda hard to argue with yer mouth full Meadow....:jester:~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Well it's kinda hard to argue with yer mouth full Meadow....:jester:~CS~


:laughing: Explain :jester:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have only dealt with the red handled ones. Thins, thicks, and bolt ons, all red handled. It would be great for someone to drill open or at least show us what some the white dotted or newer ones look like. I likely have some red handled ones that could be sacrificed.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I have only dealt with the red handled ones. Thins, thicks, and bolt ons, all red handled. It would be great for someone to drill open or at least show us what some the white dotted or newer ones look like. I likely have some red handled ones that could be sacrificed.


Drill em and post the pics. If they have a spring fulcrum that's them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> :laughing: Explain :jester:


This>




> I appreciate what you're doing Bob. *You're generating gravy jobs for us replacing panels that probably have nothing wrong with them*. We even keep the death breakers in stock and sell them at a premium when the oppertunity arrises. Truly a win win for us.



One doesn't need to be in the field very long to run into it in _some_ form or another.

We had one, old split buss panel. 

HI said it _'lacked main breaker' _

After sincerely trying to explain it, and/or ref art 230, i gave up and $2000 later, they had a main breaker....

doesn't make me a bad man.....:no::whistling2: ~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Even if you try to talk them out of it, they still want it. No need to feel guilty for that.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> I disagree. Drill open any resi 70s FPE and its apparent their were design issues, especially the 2 pole breakers with their common trip. It would explain why they rigged the UL results because they knew they would not pass all of them. I agree they should have issued a recall on their red handle breakers.
> 
> After manufacturing was resumed, did they tweak the design of the breakers?
> 
> ...


The early ones were designed to meet the UL criteria of that time period, and that criteria changed over the years.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Bob maybe a better method for someone in your situation would be a timetable I think most men on here would agree that it's 3040 or 50 year intervals these panel should be inspected at least look at to determine what the condition is. Generally speaking very generally speaking 50 years is about the life expectancy of an electrical component. I just replaced a PFE panel couple of months ago that was 55 years old and it seem to be in very good condition no arcing no burning no rust but it's 60 A it was now undersized for the home given the growth and breath of electrical components in homes nowadays. So given all that I think age and capacity would be well within your bounds.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> The early ones were designed to meet the UL criteria of that time period, and that criteria changed over the years.


I know, but still, jamming on the 2 pole breakers is never a UL allowance.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> I know, but still, jamming on the 2 pole breakers is never a UL allowance.


That may have been the issue with the whole UL thing in the first place:whistling2:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

So this is what I have to drill open:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

White handled two pole thirty:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Red handled two pole 15:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Single pole red handle. Didn't do as well with this one and messed it up a bit in the process.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> White handled two pole thirty:


 
The white handled 2 pole 30 looks like one of the newer better thought out versions. No wound spring fulcrum plus a tension bar.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> That may have been the issue with the whole UL thing in the first place:whistling2:


That is actually what reliance found wrong with them and spoke up. But still, is that a reason to assume these breakers are fine?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I was happy to find a couple of flavors in the van. I'd like to drill open a Connecticut Electric version if I can find one. If I had a bolt, which I'll have to see, I'd open one of those up too.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I was happy to find a couple of flavors in the van. I'd like to drill open a Connecticut Electric version if I can find one. If I had a bolt, which I'll have to see, I'd open one of those up too.


Id be curious as well. The Connecticut electric UBI version is supposed to have all the defects ironed out.


BTW, was the 1 pole 15 from a damp basement? I ask because of the green around the spring.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It is possible. The customer that I have that has many of these have some duplexes that have some damp basements. Its been the only place with FPE that I have had to change them out. They also have QO, GE, and Zinsco.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> It is possible. The customer that I have that has many of these have some duplexes that have some damp basements. Its been the only place with FPE that I have had to change them out. They also have QO, GE, and Zinsco.


Thanks! Just wondering. I still cant get over a spring being used as a fulcrum:blink::laughing: :jester:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm not an engineer, far from it. Wondering what the reason for choosing that over the solid piece in that white labeled piece. Find it hard to believe the spring is cheaper than a solid piece, but I don't know.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I'm not an engineer, far from it. Wondering what the reason for choosing that over the solid piece in that white labeled piece. Find it hard to believe the spring is cheaper than a solid piece, but I don't know.



That's what I have wondered over and over. :blink::blink: Why bother with a spring to start with? 


If I am correct the white labelled breakers were improved versions over the red handle ones. The solid piece and the tension bar certainly would reduce the risk of failure.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> That is actually what reliance found wrong with them and spoke up. But still, is that a reason to assume these breakers are fine?


No, but it also isn't a reason to say anything with FPE on it is evil and needs to be replaced automatically


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> No, but it also isn't a reason to say anything with FPE on it is evil and needs to be replaced automatically


Maybe not everything (their transformers were among the best), but their breakers that were involved in this should be replaced even if they look good on the outside. Its not a chance worth taking.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

meadow said:


> Maybe not everything (their transformers were among the best), but their breakers that were involved in this should be replaced even if they look good on the outside. Its not a chance worth taking.


Sure but thats not what the OP is saying, his flyer says all FPE stab lok panels, regardless of age or design or physical condition.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I wonder what is worse, an FPE panel or open wire joints in attics, walls, behind devices and fixtures.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Old plug in main Murray,FPE.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Zog said:


> Sure but thats not what the OP is saying, his flyer says all FPE stab lok panels, regardless of age or design or physical condition.


I agree not all FPEs are a problem, but its better they be replaced then trying to figure out what is ok and what is not: its just to complicated and time consuming. I know not the best answer...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The real issue is there are many levels of _dante's electrical h*ll_ to consider in the field.

And while most of us will usually come to some sort of consensus , we have zero trade writers who will _publicly _opine as we do in all our trade rags

Even our letter-orgs make light of or ignore the obvious. 

Instead these trade rags post *full page ads* of electricians behind bars , for using counterfeit electrical goods made by the same companies who outsourced manufacturing to 3rd world sweat shops 

The entire system could not be more biased

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> The real issue is there are many levels of _dante's electrical h*ll_ to consider in the field.
> 
> And while most of us will usually come to some sort of consensus , we have zero trade writers who will _publicly _opine as we do in all our trade rags
> 
> ...




I agree. Even counterfeit breakers some of which are no different then the specs the same company who out sourced them get busted hard. Of course you got some that are just plain switches.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I didn't read everything in this thread but I always recommend changing FPE's. Not too many zinscos around here. It's become somewhat moot as almost any job I bid nowadays requires arc-faults. If it doesn't have an AFCI available it gets bid with a panel change. And as a sidenote I had some flex absolutely rockin and rollin today with a dead short on an FPE breaker.


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