# Same old stuff



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

It looks like the new meter/panel combo is going to look so much better.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Yeah.

If I get paid well, I get some kind of weird satisfaction out of cleaning up crap like this.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Why wouldn't you get paid well?


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

lookin much more gooder!


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Why wouldn't you get paid well?


I was suggesting that, the better I am compensated, the more I enjoy the work and the more I can afford to do quality work.

It also helps that the weather has FINALLY cooled down to a resonable temp.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

220/221 said:


> the better I am compensated, the more I enjoy the work


 I know that is right.:thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Yeah.
> 
> If I get paid well, I get some kind of weird satisfaction out of cleaning up crap like this.


Word up! :thumbsup:


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Very nice!

It is indeed a pleasure to see a mess like that cleaned up. 

Please post the "after" pics.

Have you considered unistrut?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I will use unistrut on a flat roof or gable end installation but it still must be thru bolted thru the framing. .
















On the under eave installations there isn't an extra 3/4" behind the mast to work with since the hub is only offset about 3/4" and you have the 3/4 bird board. 

Generally we us a mast brace thar holds the mast tight to the building but in this case it would obstruct the Jbox like this....:jester:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Aren't you gonna paint that pan and cover brick red? And why is there a window to the outside, did some of the house fall off? :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

A) No

B) Aren't windows supposed to be outside?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

:sleep1:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Nice work. Ive always been curious as to why some areas mount their equipment outside....? is it a local thing..?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

A) Ease of installation. One piece of equipment, no service conductors or feeders inside

B) We don't have basements here so indoor real estate is precious.


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## Matt (Feb 3, 2008)

220/221
They have the neutral feeding the branch circuits in the old panel.

PS: Why do you guys over there put the panel outside?
Is it not allowed inside?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

In California they mount the all-in-one inside the wall.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> In California they mount the all-in-one inside the wall.


Yes. We even have masts in the wall. I know its scary for some to even think about that. :thumbup:

When upgrading an OH service, I prefer a surface mount pan for ease of installation.

~Matt


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

220/221
That is a pretty slick mast brace. I get your point about unistrut. Sometimes the 3/4 offset works out as it did in my case.

See the Californicated version below. Don't get me started on Siemens vs QO and the whole EUSERC thing.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> Don't get me started on Siemens vs QO and the whole EUSERC thing.


I would like more info on this, care to expand on it?

~Matt


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Matt,

To keep from hijacking this excellent thread started by 220/221 I'll keep my comments short and not too passionate.

As you know, in Cali and other western states the local utilities have formed a collective standards body called EUSERC. EUSERC generates drawings and design standards that manufacturers must follow in order to sell their service equipment into areas served by these local utilities.

So with Square D, you can get a EUSERC panel in the Homeline series, but not in QO. Strike 1.

Square D has also been slow to release combination arc fault breakers for MWBC's. Although I don't need them now, I will in the future. Strike 2.

Now Seimens is more on the ball with EUSERC and arc faults. The panel I choose here (MC2442B1200SEC) is better than homeline but not as nice as QO:

1) Seimens advertises a copper bus.
Yeah right, all of the bussing on the meter side is aluminum. The breakers do plug into a copper bus though. But hey the neutral bus is Aluminum all the way.

2) The meter side busing is flimsy. A couple of self tapping sheet metal screws provide the pressure to maintain contact. I sure hope they got they plating process nailed. When you reverse the meter and retorque to spec, the screws almost feel like they are starting to strip.

3) There are sharp screw tips protruding into the dead space/channel under the breakers. I thought I could put wire in that channel but after cutting my hand I gave up. Would have made for a neater job.

I have a few other nits to pick but the main points are covered above.


EJPHI


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> 220/221
> They have the neutral feeding the branch circuits in the old panel.


Yeah. I did a double take on that one :jester:




> 2) The meter side busing is flimsy. A couple of self tapping sheet metal screws provide the pressure to maintain contact. I sure hope they got they plating process nailed. When you reverse the meter and retorque to spec, the screws almost feel like they are starting to strip.


I refuse to install it this way. I drill out the bus and use 1/4 20 nuts/bolts to secure them.

This is a classic case of manufacturer stupidity. They had a great design which allows the panel to be converted from UG to OH but they used _self tapping screws_ to attach the bus pieces.



Self tapped screw in stock UG position.










They want you to use the self tapper when you flip the short section of busing over.









They use a big bolt/nut/cup washer to attach the lug then self tap the bus together. Stupid.










You can strip those screws out in a second with a 10 in 1 so I take a few minutes and use 1/4 20's to make a secure connection.











And yes, Seimans *has *seen these pics.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I will use unistrut on a flat roof or gable end installation but it still must be thru bolted thru the framing. .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 your brace blocks entry into the j-box


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

220/221

All I can say is shoulda coulda woulda.

I like the 1/4 20 solution. Those bus pieces and wimpy self taping screws felt really shoddy and cheap. 

Sometines I fall into "git er done" mode and don't think about fixing the manufacturer's stupidity.

I hope there is an engineer in der faderland who's ears are ringing.

EJPHI


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

ampman said:


> your brace blocks entry into the j-box


Is this a joke?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Is this a joke?


Looks accessible to me. All you have to do is take the mast down to start troubleshooting. That's a real good $ervice call. :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> your brace blocks entry into the j-box


 
Uh...yeah. I mentioned that in my first post. :jester: 

Poor planning on my part but not the end of the world. The cover still comes off and you can still sneak another circuit or two thru there.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

ampman said:


> your brace blocks entry into the j-box


Name the code section violated, but I suggest a look at Article 100 Accessible as applied to wiring methods.

Looks to me like you could remove the cover the and work on the conductors inside. The code requires we can access the conductors, it does not require it be easy. 

Not sure why 220 did not see the problem ahead of time but I don't think he violated any code section.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Not sure why 220 did not see the problem ahead of time but I don't think he violated any code section.


Pretty sure he had a bad case of cerebral flatulence :laughing:

~Matt


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Pretty sure he had a bad case of cerebral flatulence :laughing:


Yeah I hate when that happens. :laughing: Certainly can't say it has not happened to me. :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Not sure why 220 did not see the problem ahead of time but I don't think he violated any code section


_Cerebral flatulance_ :laughing:

Hey....it happens....but it wont happen again. 

Looking back at the pics, I must have based the layout on the bulk of the the existing circuits and just plain forgot about the brace.


















This was the job with the spring loaded test lugs built into the meter. During demo, I pulled the meter, checked power and....WTF???











The meter pushed in those brown colored things which pushed back that jumper bus.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

nice meter! that's what stays in my tool pack. Just goes to show you to check the power again before you go touching anything.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

220/221 said:


> _Cerebral flatulance_ :laughing:
> 
> Hey....it happens....but it wont happen again.
> 
> ...


 wow zinsco and fpe breakers together they really need your help


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## Mastertorturer (Jan 28, 2009)

Those Panels don't look like they even have a substantial drip hood. How does that panel keep water out when it rains sideways? Is there any sort of gasket on the edge of the access door and the side of the panel? 

Or does it not matter when you install it below an eave? All I can think is how many insects and debris could get in there. Also, what is going to keep that panel from turning into a rusted peice of junk like the other one?

Not to mention it's "subject to mechanical damage" outside. Then how do you keep people from screwing with your panel? The locks on those things can be picked with a wet noodle most times. 

My mind is blown when I see a panel outside.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Master-I doubt there's a need to worry too much about drip-loops in the Phoenix Arizona area,likewise insect intrusion,sideways rain,or rust issues . In many parts of the country ,outdoor services are the norm,especially where basements are uncommon. They are very quick, clean,and economical to install as well. Steve.


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## Mastertorturer (Jan 28, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> Master-I doubt there's a need to worry too much about drip-loops in the Phoenix Arizona area,likewise insect intrusion,sideways rain,or rust issues . In many parts of the country ,outdoor services are the norm,especially where basements are uncommon. They are very quick, clean,and economical to install as well. Steve.


Thanks it just seems so extreme because if you installed the same thing in southern ontario it would be rusted to the bus-bars in one year.Sometimes I think the salt they pour on the road becomes airborne. Hehehehe.

I meant drip hood not loop. Like the tops you see to protect Main Distribution Panels from sprinklers in the Vaults.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

The panels do have _drip hoods_ to keep out our 7" of annual rainfall.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

220/221 said:


> The panels do have _drip hoods_ to keep out our 7" of annual rainfall.


I see alot of indoor panels that you pull out. I know yall only get 7 inches, but I would still never install an indoor enclosure. Hey, don't you use those drop in anchors? Where do you get them?


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> nice meter! that's what stays in my tool pack. Just goes to show you to check the power again before you go touching anything.


I've saved my own arse like that a few times where there was a meter can with a bypass and I didn't notice it was flipped when I pulled the meter. Use your tester AND pay attention. :whistling2:


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

Nice work 220 and thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. I'd like to see the finished product from the first set of pics as well as the last set. 

In the last set did you re-run all the surface mounted conduits?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

They didn't start installing outdoor panels here until the mid/late 60's...a bit before my time.

Here's what happens when you dump water into them.












> Hey, don't you use those drop in anchors? Where do you get them?


Sleeve anchors from The Home Depot !!


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

220/221 said:


> They didn't start installing outdoor panels here until the mid/late 60's...a bit before my time.
> 
> Here's what happens when you dump water into them.
> 
> ...


Nothing a little Oxy Clean can't fix.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

220/221 said:


> They didn't start installing outdoor panels here until the mid/late 60's...a bit before my time.
> 
> Here's what happens when you dump water into them.
> 
> ...


 i made a lamp from a round meter base and 120 volt meter from a service we upgraded a long long time ago


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Water? Pfff that happens every time I hit power on anything. Can't figure it out..... :001_huh:


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## ramsy (Jan 20, 2009)

220/221 said:


> This is a classic case of manufacturer stupidity. They had a great design which allows the panel to be converted from UG to OH but they used _self tapping screws_ to attach the bus pieces.
> 
> They want you to use the self tapper when you flip the short section of busing over.


While adjusting the lugs, it appears that bus could hit the enclosure and arc blast in your face.

Do all meter center Mfg's run bus along exposed housings, using tiny air gaps to insulate against mechanical forces applied to locked lugs, stuck meter pulling, or F.O.D. faults (Foreign Object Damage) ?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> While adjusting the lugs, it appears that bus could hit the enclosure and arc blast in your face.


Well, you shouldn't work on them while they were energized. 






> Do all meter center Mfg's run bus along exposed housings, using tiny air gaps to insulate against mechanical forces applied to locked lugs, stuck meter pulling, or F.O.D. faults (Foreign Object Damage) ?


Yep. I am often surprised how little space there is around busing.


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## jenningsbg (May 21, 2010)

http://www.earthloop.co.uk/


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