# CE/CW thoughts



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I support it because I'm not union.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

I dont think it should be pushed on every local. IMHO it will hurt my local.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

RUSSIAN said:


> I dont think it should be pushed on every local. IMHO it will hurt my local.


Yeah the mandatory nationwide thing doesn't always work. My local dominates market share in the area.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

This program is unfair to all but the union contractors.The CEs could be just as qualified as I but make $10 an hour less and possible less benefits. A Cw could possible work for 10 years without becoming a JW again at a lower rate than a 5 year apprentice.Along with the possible abuse available through this program it also deregulates what we as Journeymen can ask to be paid an hour, union and nonunion alike.Greed for money and power can corrupt even a pure soul.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

The government that governs least, governs best.

All politics are local.

When a blanket is tossed over everyone, someone gets screwed.

Stupid is as stupid does. We don't need to get into a race for the bottom; the only out come there is that we will all be losers, union and nonunion alike. Contractors would lose too.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> This program is unfair to all but the union contractors.The CEs could be just as qualified as I but make $10 an hour less and possible less benefits. A Cw could possible work for 10 years without becoming a JW again at a lower rate than a 5 year apprentice.Along with the possible abuse available through this program it also deregulates what we as Journeymen can ask to be paid an hour, union and nonunion alike.*Greed for money and power can corrupt even a pure sou*l.


Durn Noah can't seem to see the complete picture, who would have thought?

But on this you are right as rain, the greed of the union members has driven the market share to the lowest in years.

If you had to take a guess, do you think the union will have a higher percentage of the market share in ten years or will their market share continue to shrink?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Hill lays out a pretty good case for why we need to adjust crew structure and shows in dollars and cents why we are at a competetive disavantage under the present way of doing things and exactly how we can turn that around while still employing more brothers and sisters.I have watched the video several times and the numbers make sense.like he said take a drive and look at all the work that should be union and then make your decision.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

We're already headed for some major course correction when we hit bottom.

Learning to adapt is, in itself, a necessity, and whenever there is change, we're bound to have some failures along the way.

My major prediction about the future...

The sh1t will stink so bad looking forward, that the guys currently working will dump putting more money in the union pensions altogether, and opt to have more personal control over their own retirement and health package monies. Then alot of the baby-boomers will have to ride the high and hard one, and move in with their kids, or in with each other because their kids won't have them for the way they were treated as kids.

CE / CW isn't an answer, it's another problem to work through and solve.

The linemen think they are entitled to all construction work on their jobs. Some get mad because they feel entitled to float concrete for $44 an hour. Its obviously been a reality check, as we too will have a reality check when it comes to our far lesser-skilled work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> .like he said take a drive and look at all the work that should be union and then make your decision.



And here is where he is wrong, this work belongs to the contractors that can win the bids, or nature the customers. Union or open shop. Few union members actually get any work for the employers (except for the dues paying salesmen, foremen, service managers).

Where he is right, unless they can adjust their wages and mentality, they will continue to shrink.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> And here is where he is wrong, this work belongs to the contractors that can win the bids, or nature the customers. Union or open shop. Few union members actually get any work for the employers (except for the dues paying salesmen, foremen, service managers).
> 
> Where he is right, unless they can adjust their wages and mentality, they will continue to shrink.


 How is he wrong in looking at the work that should have gone union? You obviously dont know what you are commenmting on. It has nothing to do with adjusting their wage or "mentality" whatever that means it is about crew structure and making that hourly cost more effective.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I propose new unions to compete with the old ones.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Few union members actually get any work for the employers (except for the dues paying salesmen, foremen, service managers).


And we [EDIT: We the A-Players,] need to be trained in what's effective for nurturing our [EC's,] business. 
[EDIT: So we can implement good business practice and grow.] 

A wise old contractor told me customers want SERVICE, SERVICE, SERVICE. In other words, performance with a great attitude. [EDIT: An example of good business practice.]

I believe alot of work comes from shady dealings [greasing palms], and I'm okay with that, its another form of negotiation [winning the work.] I wish it was all above board [legitimate,] but that's not how America works. The clique that controls the hall [I'm not telling how they're all related,] in my local has been VERY successful at the business end [getting our contractors tons of work.] I have a very good idea of how things originate [where the backroom is,] and am not sure other locals are the same. Those other locals are probably doomed to inevitible failure. [Because they're not up on the big inside dealings.]


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> We're already headed for some major course correction when we hit bottom.
> 
> Learning to adapt is, in itself, a necessity, and whenever there is change, we're bound to have some failures along the way.
> 
> ...


 The local pension funds are not tied to the NEBF as of now the NEBF is at 1 to 1 but with the CE/CW could turn that quickly.Why do you view the CE/CW as a problem?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> And we need to be trained in what's effective for nurturing our business.
> 
> A wise old contractor told me customers want SERVICE, SERVICE, SERVICE. In other words, performance with a great attitude.
> 
> I believe alot of work comes from shady dealings, and I'm okay with that, its another form of negotiation. I wish it was all above board, but that's not how America works. The clique that controls the hall in my local has been VERY successful at the business end. I have a very good idea of how things originate, and am not sure other locals are the same. Those other locals are probably doomed to inevitible failure.


 I need to drink a few more to catch up with you cause it no make sense..


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> Why do you view the CE/CW as a problem?


I don't, but it's not the solution either. It is evidence that we are aware of a problem and trying to do something about it. IMO, anyone opposed to trying it out is going to hold us all back from eventually finding the positive change we need.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Hill lays out a pretty good case for why we need to adjust crew structure and shows in dollars and cents why we are at a competetive disavantage under the present way of doing things and exactly how we can turn that around while still employing more brothers and sisters.I have watched the video several times and the numbers make sense.like he said take a drive and look at all the work that should be union and then make your decision.


 Because I am proactive in the union I have seen this god forsaken video several times (at a couple of special called meetings)but it only took once for my brain to realize that if we allow the less qualified to do our job for less money will NOT CREATE WORK. Brian I make efforts to be polite to you although you show your intellect and dedication or lack of every time you post. When it comes to internal union structure and politics this might be a little to complicated for you.The greed for money and power I refer to the contractors and a few politicians.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

i think it's ironic that the IBEW's plan to get work and gain market share is to go non-union...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> How is he wrong in looking at the work that should have gone union? You obviously dont know what you are commenmting on. It has nothing to do with adjusting their wage or "mentality" whatever that means it is about crew structure and making that hourly cost more effective.


You missed my point.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> B.The greed for money and power I refer to the contractors and a few politicians.



Because you are blind to the fact that the union has contributed to their shrinking market share. 

Why would you admit this is a two way street, you narrow approach to thinking precludes this.


But as usual YOU CANNOT ANSWER A QUESTION.

Where do you think the union will be in ten years?

Whose fault is it the union is losing market share?

Do you think that I like to see the market share shrinking?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> i think it's ironic that the IBEW's plan to get work and gain market share is to go non-union...


They have no choice. Unions for the time being are on the run, the die hard brethren may always have a job, but the working masses may very well be working open shop in the future.


Though, if I really knew what the future held, I'd be betting on the horses and lottery.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

oldman said:


> i think it's ironic that the IBEW's plan to get work and gain market share is to go non-union...


I don't believe that's what their doing. In local 3 NYC we are not adopting cw/ce we already have a market recovery called the M-division.Some brothers don't like it but has kept alot contractors alive and when it's policed properly it's a good thing.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*Excuse my ignorance*

Please explain what CE/CW is/means.

Thanks,


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Please explain what CE/CW is/means.
> 
> Thanks,


http://www.electrictv.net/Archives/CE-CW-Programs.aspx

If you think about it many (not all) electricians are not much more than somewhat higher trained assembly line workers, yet in the IBEW their base scale is the same as a much higher trained service electrician, fire alarm tech, controls specialist and on and on in a trade with many specialities. Maybe a pay scale structured on what you know and do?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> http://www.electrictv.net/Archives/CE-CW-Programs.aspx
> 
> If you think about it many (not all) electricians are not much more than somewhat higher trained assembly line workers, yet in the IBEW their base scale is the same as a much higher trained service electrician, fire alarm tech, controls specialist and on and on in a trade with many specialities. Maybe a pay scale structured on what you know and do?


I've always thought pay should be based on performance. I've never been exposed to the union personally, just talked to a few guys that have been. 

The ones that were performers usually were ex-union and the ones that were average performers seemed to stick with the union. Again, I came up in Tidewater, VA and am now in Wilmington, NC. Neither location is strong union (I think) so my exposure is very limited.

I believe the construction industry is in general underpaying the non-union workers, but I think that's more of a sign of the general quest for more money by the businesses. It is about the money, no matter which side of the fence you work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I believe the construction industry is in general underpaying the non-union workers, but I think that's more of a sign of the general quest for more money by the businesses. It is about the money, no matter which side of the fence you work.


Money, then there is supply and demand and one thing for sure demand is too low at present.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> Money, then there is supply and demand and one thing for sure demand is too low at present.


That applies to just about every type of medium/low education job right now.

I put electrician as a medium education job.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Because you are blind to the fact that the union has contributed to their shrinking market share.
> 
> Why would you admit this is a two way street, you narrow approach to thinking precludes this.
> 
> ...


 In the early years the union electrician was the best trainedhardest working individual in the trade as we moved forward the union contractor moved away from the lower paying work beginning with residential construction.the non union shops quickly dominated this market and the pay reflected that dominance.
As the union electrical contractors focused on the larger jobs that rerquired a higher skilled workforce they began to abandon the smaller commercial jobs that along with the dumbing down of the NEC alowed another opening for the non union electrician to grab that maket bringing with them the expected lower wages.The union didn't lose maket share they simply gave it away. Now some of the large commercial jobs reserved for the union electrician are now reing done by non union workers .Now we can compete with the non union workforce if we can adjust crew composites. By the use of apprentice ,CE/CW, and journeyman wireman we can actually get a lower per hour job cost which will put IBEW members to work.
If Wisconson is successful in breaking its public sector union you will see a watershead effect as state after state dismantles thier unions.if changes are not made in ten years the IBEW will nolonger be a player and although some will say this is a good thing I don't think the effect will be of any benefit to the people that put on the tools.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> die hard brethren may always have a job.


The old die-hards are unemployable, they lack the ability to perform profitibly. Troublemakers. 



brian john said:


> Money, then there is supply and demand and one thing for sure demand is too low at present.


The only time to move up is in times of high demand. Then holding onto the promotion is more of a political calculation.

Brian John, if you got the blue-print for success, I'd love to hear it. I'll follow that recipe.

I thought the way up was: take on some responsibility and run some small profitible work, show ability, and promotions with bonuses will come your way. Wish you could tell me that with a straight face when it comes to union contractors. I saw that working non-union though....

Maybe I'm just a crybaby  

I got my own leaders I'm latched onto that I like, it's just stagnant right now. Should feel lucky to have a steady job as a John W.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> The union didn't lose maket share they simply gave it away.


Men with ability WALKED AWAY.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Should feel lucky to have a steady job as a John W.


John Williams? He'll never be out of a job as long as Spielberg is still doing his thing!!


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Just my $0.02, with the economy the IBEW will continue to lose market share every where. The wage and benefit packages cannot be sustained. The work force markets want the labor to be split into defined specialties such as new construction electrician (low wage), high voltage/PLC/controls (higher wage) to maintenance electrician (medium wage). I see large corporations dictating what wages contractors will receive for trades performing new construction, maintenance turn around and maintenance of their facilities. This has pushed union contractors out of this business (mainly petrol/chemical). Which is strange because most of their employees are union. Some of the BS I see with our IJW's and Apprentice I see the local lasting another ten years. People today want to be an individual and more than happy to throw the other guy under the bus. Once the head IO guys and district guys throw in the towel in the next few years there will be nothing left for the field guys. Don't believe it just do a goggle search of lost pensions.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

erics37 said:


> John Williams? He'll never be out of a job as long as Spielberg is still doing his thing!!


Yep, that's me, you found me out! :no:

Don't tell any other world famous composers I been slummin down at ET...

Vic is really a world famous white rapper from Detroit... :whistling2:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Yep, that's me, you found me out! :no:
> 
> Don't tell any other world famous composers I been slummin down at ET...
> 
> Vic is really a world famous white rapper from Detroit... :whistling2:


:laughing:

So did you really punch Hans Zimmer in the face at the Oscars back in '94?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> If Wisconson is successful in breaking its public sector union you will see a watershead effect as state after state dismantles thier unions.if changes are not made in ten years the IBEW will nolonger be a player and although some will say this is a good thing I don't think the effect will be of any benefit to the people that put on the tools.


Once the unions hit rock bottom, the only place left to go will be up, so I say let off the brakes and hit the gas.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Once the unions hit rock bottom, the only place left to go will be up, so I say let off the brakes and hit the gas.


If the union goes away so do your wages and benefits. You will be working for walmart electric.

Charlie


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Charlie K said:


> If the union goes away so do your wages and benefits. You will be working for walmart electric.
> 
> Charlie


And then everybody will get pissed off, reorganize, break some $hit, hold a few company owners hostage, etc.

It's for the greater good man.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> And then everybody will get pissed off, reorganize, break some $hit, hold a few company owners hostage, etc.
> 
> It's for the greater good man.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I will definitely be front and center for that party.
Actually, it kinda reminds me of the Phillies parade back in 08'


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> And then everybody will get pissed off, reorganize, break some $hit, hold a few company owners hostage, etc.
> 
> It's for the greater good man.


I can see that possibly happening. Let's hope progress is made to avoid it.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Hey man, the French don't mess around. They know how to revolt.

French Workers Hold Boss Hostage:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7170102&page=1


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> If the union goes away so do your wages and benefits. You will be working for walmart electric.
> 
> Charlie


not sure rewire has enough work to employ everyone...


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

If nothing else this thread has been entertainment for me and that is odd since I normally am not amused by mere speculation. Now as I understand some on this board are saying because the IBEW market share is at a low that there will be no IBEW, so then what? Do you really believe that the open shop without a union here will on there own pay you what you are worth?From the data I found very fewer union contractor filed for bankruptcy in the last year compared to nonunion.Could it be possible that maybe because of the recession that over all contractor concessions have hit an all time low? Have you even tuned into what is going on in Wisconsin where some 70,000+ union members showed up to protest to only a mere 300-500 teabaggers. I think the unions will strive long after we are gone and we all should be thankful no matter if we work union or not.As far as an ideal that the IBEW pricing their self out of business, well there just are not enough facts to back up that thought.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Hey man, the French don't mess around. They know how to revolt.
> 
> French Workers Hold Boss Hostage:
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7170102&page=1


From your link


> "When workers have a grievance in revolutionary France, the laws of the republic are suspended," Ted Stanger, a U.S. journalist living in Paris who has written numerous books on the French, told ABCNews.com. "They can kidnap, they can virtually do what they want, and the police will not intervene, because it's considered that workers have all the rights. So, that explains why they can presume to hold somebody hostage when in any other part of the world it's considered a terrorist act."


WOW!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I can see that possibly happening. Let's hope progress is made to avoid it.



No, were no where close to it yet. People are still to passive, and things (even for the struggling) are still to easy.

I like to look at my wifes Grandparents as role models (since I never knew mine) Both held the same jobs for the same companies (union) for over 40 years. Grandma was a candy maker in a factory and Grandpa was a Butcher at a slaughter house.

Both lived through the depression and Grandpa was a WWII vet seeing lot's of action in Europe.

Each one had family killed in WWII and both were patriotic to the bone. 

Now here is what I liked about these people. They lived in the same little house they're whole adult lives, had the same furniture, appliances, and basic home furnishings for over 30 years. Saved all their money and took care of there family.


I guess my point is, these people were tough as nails, shrewd, smart, and stingy. We as a country are a far cry from that and IMO they were the last great generation of this country.

I don't think they would have sat around and let the country become what it has. We need to get back to the values they possessed in order to turn it around.

Sadly, I don't see it happening.

Grandma almost made 100 dieing a few years back at 99 and pop made it to 95.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Hey man, the French don't mess around. They know how to revolt.
> 
> French Workers Hold Boss Hostage:
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7170102&page=1


They are much better at surrendering.

Charlie


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Charlie K said:


> They are much better at surrendering.
> 
> Charlie


I think the guys get a bad rap. Most of europe fell under Germany's control, whether defiantly, or in allegiance. And they helped us out during our revolt against Britain, (even if it was just to spite the English).

Anyway, my point being, there are countries outside of the United States that practice dissent way more than we do.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

oldman said:


> not sure rewire has enough work to employ everyone...


 The goal is after the dust settles is to be the last man standing then everyone can work for me:thumbsup:


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