# Romex in PVC



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Romex is not listed for use in a wet location. That's why there is UF. Conduit and wire vs UF have pros and cons. You don't pull UF through conduit. It just doesn't make sense unless it is a short run for physical protection.


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## Jay82304 (May 12, 2015)

Why does he want it in Romex??? It's a code violation. Youre the electrician right? Don't let him dictate how to do the job. NM cable is not suitable for use in wet locations. Underground conduit is considered a wet location. You would need to use THWN wires. UF cable will work too.


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

These guys are right, listen to them


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Romex is not listed for use in a wet location. That's why there is UF. Conduit and wire vs UF have pros and cons. You don't pull UF through conduit. It just doesn't make sense unless it is a short run for physical protection.


Was thinking of advising on UF, but every time I've been called out because an underground feed was bad, it was wired with UF, now, question, inside the PVC is still considered 'Wet location? As I've had this argument before..


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Go UF and be done with it, the conduit really serves little purpose for a post light.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Jay82304 said:


> Why does he want it in Romex??? It's a code violation. Youre the electrician right? Don't let him dictate how to do the job. NM cable is not suitable for use in wet locations. Underground conduit is considered a wet location. You would need to use THWN wires. UF cable will work too.


It was not a requirement only a request, maybe he's heard good things about romex, I don't plan on using romex, I just want to be able to give a better answer than "it's the way I was taught" and I've seen MC on side of building, new work


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

ben franklin said:


> Was thinking of advising on UF, but every time I've been called out because an underground feed was bad, it was wired with UF, now, question, inside the PVC is still considered 'Wet location? As I've had this argument before..


YES it is a wet location. Have you ever seen an underground conduit that was dry? Wetness and moisture can get in a thousand ways.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Yes, the inside of the pipe is considered a wet location because it is buried. Look up Location, Wet Art 100 in the NEC.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Go UF and be done with it, the conduit really serves little purpose for a post light.


Yes, makes it a whole lot easy, but as I said, I've been called out to deal with shorted out UF a lot...


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

I'm pretty sure any conduit outside, buried or exposed is considered a wet location


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> YES it is a wet location. Have you ever seen an underground conduit that was dry? Wetness and moisture can get in a thousand ways.


No, I agree, it was told to me by and older sparky that it's not, a lot of times I don't have my code book handy so can't effectively debate guys that's been in the business 30 plus years, but by the time I leave that site, I'm not thinking about fact checking..


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Yes, the inside of the pipe is considered a wet location because it is buried. Look up Location, Wet Art 100 in the NEC.


Agreed, one guy said it can be done only for a short run like less than 10'...but 10' of PVC is still wet location but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks..


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

ben franklin said:


> Was thinking of advising on UF, but every time I've been called out because an underground feed was bad, it was wired with UF, now, question, inside the PVC is still considered 'Wet location? As I've had this argument before..


 Open your code book and read these sections



Article 100 Definition of "Location, Wet" 
300.5(B) 
334.12(B)(4)
 Roger


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Why was it shorted out? Physical damage? Was it buried deep enough? Was it protected properly where it entered and exited the trench? Please don't overthink this. It's a yard light not a service or a feeder.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Do yourself a favor. Take a code class. Many of us here since we've been in the trade take classes to continue learning.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Yes, the inside of the pipe is considered a wet location because it is buried. Look up Location, Wet Art 100 in the NEC.



Thanks, this is what I was looking for, you know we have some of the smartest (coughs) customers, and if you can't fully explain to them, than you're wrong and they're right, but now I can word it right even with the "old heads"


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

TRurak said:


> These guys are right, listen to them


Best reply here lol:thumbup:


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Do yourself a favor. Take a code class. Many of us here since we've been in the trade take classes to continue learning.


I hear you but for now, my toilet and a few mins with my code book will do, it's just vast so no hurry to learn it in one 30-45 min. sitting, and not saying I don't know the code book, it's just hard to explain at times..


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Why was it shorted out? Physical damage? Was it buried deep enough? Was it protected properly where it entered and exited the trench? Please don't overthink this. It's a yard light not a service or a feeder.




Most times, going under the cement is where I lost power, other times, I'd have to say 'Life' happened because I saw no signs of damage


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

If you pull or try to pull UF in plastic conduit, you are nuts or like doing things the hard way.
Its thhn/thwn no yeas or nays about it. Its the only way to go. I'm surprised I am reading this on a pro forum!


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

The OP is an apprentice and needed some mentoring that he wasn't getting on the job apparently.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Why was it shorted out? Physical damage? Was it buried deep enough? Was it protected properly where it entered and exited the trench? Please don't overthink this. It's a yard light not a service or a feeder.





Not sure if you fully understand my question, I was asking for code ref. on why romex in PVC was a violation (as I could not explain it at the time) and stated my concerns with using UF but UF is the way I'll go.. For the ones that may feel some kind of way, sure I could have came home and looked it up, but then, what would be the point of this site??? I enjoy reading and discussing this trade..


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

John Valdes said:


> If you pull or try to pull UF in plastic conduit, you are nuts or like doing things the hard way.
> Its thhn/thwn no yeas or nays about it. Its the only way to go. I'm surprised I am reading this on a pro forum!


Speaking of this, a customer just moved her shed. It had a 3/4 pvc running to it. She wanted an outlet where the shed was so I went over and installed one of those Arlington receptacle posts. The 3/4 pvc had a 12/2 uf in it ...... It's about 100' to the house ....... There was a pvc corner lb at the shed ....... I fought with that corner LB for 10 mins before I smashed it with a hammer .... I still don't know how they got the uf through the pvc or through the corner lb......


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> The OP is an apprentice and needed some mentoring that he wasn't getting on the job apparently.




close, State licensed electrical contractor, running my own business, just my mind goes blank at times, but thanks for understanding what I was trying to get done...


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

John Valdes said:


> If you pull or try to pull UF in plastic conduit, you are nuts or like doing things the hard way.
> Its thhn/thwn no yeas or nays about it. Its the only way to go. I'm surprised I am reading this on a pro forum!



No one offered UF in conduit, most said it was a waste of time, I was speaking of romex in which I know to be wrong but could not explain why at the time..


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

TRurak said:


> Speaking of this, a customer just moved her shed. It had a 3/4 pvc running to it. She wanted an outlet where the shed was so I went over and installed one of those Arlington receptacle posts. The 3/4 pvc had a 12/2 uf in it ...... It's about 100' to the house ....... There was a pvc corner lb at the shed ....... I fought with that corner LB for 10 mins before I smashed it with a hammer .... I still don't know how they got the uf through the pvc or through the corner lb......




Lots of elbow grease and pure luck I assume...


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## V-Dough (Jul 22, 2014)

Why not use teck cable?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ben franklin said:


> No, I agree, it was told to me by and older sparky that it's not, a lot of times I don't have my code book handy so can't effectively debate guys that's been in the business 30 plus years, but by the time I leave that site, I'm not thinking about fact checking..


You are a licensed electrical contractor and you don't have a code book handy??


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It's best to shut down customers like this really fast:

"The code book won't let me"
"The inspector won't like it"
"This works best..."

Since you're the expert, further discussion is unwarranted.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> You are a licensed electrical contractor and you don't have a code book handy??




Correct, and all the electricians I know don't keep it with them, as I said, it fills up my time on the toilet..I do keep my ugly's with me though..And was not about to go thru all that just to show a customer that romex was wrong..


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

99cents said:


> It's best to shut down customers like this really fast:
> 
> "The code book won't let me"
> "The inspector won't like it"
> ...


I agree, but he's a repeated customer, so I don't mind him asking questions, I did mind not being able to explain clearly at the moment...not saying he did not understand my saying "because water gets in the PVC"


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

V-Dough said:


> Why not use teck cable?




Not even sure they have that down here, most use UF as stated..


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

V-Dough said:


> Why not use teck cable?


We gave the Americans teck cable. They gave us arc fault breakers. Something's wrong with this picture :laughing: .


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

99cents said:


> We gave the Americans teck cable. They gave us arc fault breakers. Something's wrong with this picture :laughing: .




On behalf of all americans, I'm sorry for the arc faults :thumbup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ben franklin said:


> On behalf of all americans, I'm sorry for the arc faults :thumbup:


It's okay. Well, no, actually it isn't. :laughing:


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

99cents said:


> It's okay. Well, no, actually it isn't. :laughing:


Can I offer you this? We are carrying that burden as well..


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ben franklin said:


> Can I offer you this? We are carrying that burden as well..


I share your pain, brother :laughing: ...


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

99cents said:


> I share your pain, brother :laughing: ...


I say we unite and boycott arc faults...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Maybe client thinks uf is romex?



TRurak said:


> Speaking of this, a customer just moved her shed. It had a 3/4 pvc running to it. She wanted an outlet where the shed was so I went over and installed one of those Arlington receptacle posts. The 3/4 pvc had a 12/2 uf in it ...... It's about 100' to the house ....... There was a pvc corner lb at the shed ....... I fought with that corner LB for 10 mins before I smashed it with a hammer .... I still don't know how they got the uf through the pvc or through the corner lb......





ben franklin said:


> Lots of elbow grease and pure luck I assume...


NO! It was Voodoo!!!


V-Dough said:


> Why not use teck cable?


$$$$$$$$


99cents said:


> It's best to shut down customers like this really fast:
> 
> "The code book won't let me"
> "The inspector won't like it"
> ...


Code won't allow, k gotta run to the next estimate talk to you later now!


99cents said:


> We gave the Americans teck cable. They gave us arc fault breakers. Something's wrong with this picture :laughing: .


You got hosed eh?


ben franklin said:


> I say we unite and boycott arc faults...


Revolution!


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> Maybe client thinks uf is romex?
> 
> Maybe, but I've seen it done too..
> 
> ...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ben franklin said:


> Majewski said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe client thinks uf is romex?
> ...


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> ben franklin said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe, but I've seen it done too..
> ...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

He might actually think that he's correct!


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Which brings me to this point, if newbies works with the old heads to learn as much from them as possible, how are we teaching them to do it right? One could at least say "This is hack work so don't be like me" or something to that effect..


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> He might actually think that he's correct!


Right and the newbies, knows not to correct but to trust his judgment for the most, then goes to another co. and gets chewed out..But I guess it's on the newibe for not fact checking..


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Now you're asking people to not only be direct and honest but to also be aware that THEY might not be 100% or a god...all on top of having to communicate in such a manner that the listener(s) can hear and understand!?

But just shut up and follow me with the broom, don't ask me questions while I'm working! 

I used to say in a previous job a lot "This is wrong and you shouldn't do it but I know the difference between right and wrong at my level and I am making the call." I remember the last time I said that I nearly severed my achilles tendon.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> Now you're asking people to not only be direct and honest but to also be aware that THEY might not be 100% or a god...all on top of having to communicate in such a manner that the listener(s) can hear and understand!?
> 
> But just shut up and follow me with the broom, don't ask me questions while I'm working!
> 
> I used to say in a previous job a lot "This is wrong and you shouldn't do it but I know the difference between right and wrong at my level and I am making the call." I remember the last time I said that I nearly severed my achilles tendon.


If it don't kill you huh...but I hear you..I do it as well but will tell my helper that it's not code but since I'm not filing it I'll do it my way..


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I think the key is being aware. As long as we are aware of this stuff we can grow off of that. Aware of being wrong, aware of forgetting something, aware of ways to improve or different approaches and so on...


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> I think the key is being aware. As long as we are aware of this stuff we can grow off of that. Aware of being wrong, aware of forgetting something, aware of ways to improve or different approaches and so on...


:thumbup: right now, I'm aware of how hungry I am...:thumbup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

ben franklin said:


> :thumbup: right now, I'm aware of how hungry I am...:thumbup:


I gotta get to Menards damnit.....brb yo! lol


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

I know I'm fixing to get crucified here, but I'd swear I've cut romex open before and seen standard THHN or THW on the individual strands. So, if you put THHN that happens to have an extra jacket on it and now is classified as NM inside a PVC conduit is a code violation? Inside a conduit seems protected from physical damage. Yes, underground is considered wet but if the individual strands are rated THHN, what difference does it make? I mean, if you stripped it out and used the individual strands it'd be perfectly ok but in the NM jacket it's somehow going to get people killed in droves? I'm not buying it. So it's a technical code violation. I wouldn't have any problem doing it so long as it's in a solid conduit from end to end, not direct bury anywhere.

There, now you can start driving the nails.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i have pulled romex out of the ground, out of pipe, and out of out door boxes and they had all been around awhile, but they all had one thing in common, the insulation was the problem! most romex isnt the same as thWn and there is a difference. romex ins. just doesnt hold up in consistently wet areas. i think it may have something to do with the paper holding the moisture?


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

I've pulled romex out of underground conduits that had been there 20+ years and was still as functional as the day it was installed. I'm not saying it's the best way to install something, and yes, I'd prefer individual strands of THHN but I don't think it's a huge problem either.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

ben franklin said:


> No, I agree, it was told to me by and older sparky that it's not, a lot of times I don't have my code book handy so can't effectively debate guys that's been in the business 30 plus years, but by the time I leave that site, I'm not thinking about fact checking..



Don't correlate age or years in the trade to code knowledge. There are guys that have bent pipe for 30 years and never had a reason to know one code article. I'm on the upper end of age here and I'm not up on code, just been around long enough to know what flies and how things get speced on prints.
I spent most of my time trouble shooting and terminating control wires, code was not something I had to study for my day to day work, it related more to side work. I post here a lot and you won't really see me quote code articles.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

smorkle said:


> I know I'm fixing to get crucified here, but I'd swear I've cut romex open before and seen standard THHN or THW on the individual strands. So, if you put THHN that happens to have an extra jacket on it and now is classified as NM inside a PVC conduit is a code violation? Inside a conduit seems protected from physical damage. Yes, underground is considered wet but if the individual strands are rated THHN, what difference does it make? I mean, if you stripped it out and used the individual strands it'd be perfectly ok but in the NM jacket it's somehow going to get people killed in droves? I'm not buying it. So it's a technical code violation. I wouldn't have any problem doing it so long as it's in a solid conduit from end to end, not direct bury anywhere.
> 
> There, now you can start driving the nails.


I've removed the sleeve before on romex and put it inside emt for transitioning joists to block wall on interior walls but that's about the only time I re used it for something else.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Don't correlate age or years in the trade to code knowledge. There are guys that have bent pipe for 30 years and never had a reason to know one code article. I'm on the upper end of age here and I'm not up on code, just been around long enough to know what flies and how things get speced on prints.
> I spent most of my time trouble shooting and terminating control wires, code was not something I had to study for my day to day work, it related more to side work. I post here a lot and you won't really see me quote code articles.


I'm mainly residential, and the guys I'm around are as well, just saying, it's one thing to know something and another to explain it...I do know when they are doing wrong but while I'm working under their name my hands are tied, I got fired once working in a warehouse, The new super asked me to go get the saw to cut the metal studs, told me where it was, I don't see it there so I come back and let him know, it goes to look for it while I'm re taping his mistakes, he comes back 30 mins later, tells me he found it on the other side of the house, under some plastic, my response was, "well why did you not bring it back with you?" next thing I know the manager had my pink slip, I've learned to let things be ...


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

I spent 15 years doing after hours work and HAD to have stuff back up and running before people came in the next day. Sometimes you dont get all the supplies you need and you HAVE to make what you've got on hand work somehow. I have personally cobbled stuff together at times that would make half the people's heads on this forum explode. Not proud of it, and the vast majority of them were removed or fixed right the next night or were in areas that got remodeled the next month, but I know how to get very creative to make stuff work. Sometimes the NEC had to take a back seat to the US Government's need for whatever it was to be ready the next morning.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

ill bet hack loves you!:laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

smorkle said:


> I spent 15 years doing after hours work and HAD to have stuff back up and running before people came in the next day. Sometimes you dont get all the supplies you need and you HAVE to make what you've got on hand work somehow. I have personally cobbled stuff together at times that would make half the people's heads on this forum explode. Not proud of it, and the vast majority of them were removed or fixed right the next night or were in areas that got remodeled the next month, but I know how to get very creative to make stuff work. Sometimes the NEC had to take a back seat to the US Government's need for whatever it was to be ready the next morning.


If I was your boss reading that I wouldn't know if you should be patted on the back or kicked in the can. It all depends if those "cobbled" items were operating within safe limits during the interim times. Copper pipe in fuse holders is a cobble? Uf for NM is a cobble? NM in place of THWN is questionable? A 30 amp fuse because you don't have a 5 could be a fire and lost piece of equipment.


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If I was your boss reading that I wouldn't know if you should be patted on the back or kicked in the can. It all depends if those "cobbled" items were operating within safe limits during the interim times. Copper pipe in fuse holders is a cobble? Uf for NM is a cobble? NM in place of THWN is questionable? A 30 amp fuse because you don't have a 5 could be a fire and lost piece of equipment.


Nah, mostly Im talking about running mc just hanging in the rafters or the wrong kind of fitting used or we did a lot of systems furniture and it comes with sealtite whips and if we were short connectors a standard flex fitting will make it work. I wont ever do stuff that I feel is going to be a hazard to anyone. I have put a 2 pole 30 breaker in where we needed a single pole or two single poles and put a piece of wire in to tie them together. Technical violations, yes, but not much of a hazard in the environment we were working. The government is an interesting customer. They want a bid yesterday and then will wait 6 months and expect you to do it within minutes of being given the go ahead. Makes for some interesting work sometimes. Glad I'm not doing that anymore. Working for myself is much more personally gratifying than that. Those people remodel all the time. 2/3 of the stuff I installed has probably been ripped out and redone anyhow. I know one area I personally worked on 5 different times. Gets disheartening after a while to tear out the work you did last year just because they're ready to spend money again.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Kinda like what's the point in even doing it "this" way if it'll be "that" way tomorrow....


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

smorkle said:


> Nah, mostly Im talking about running mc just hanging in the rafters or the wrong kind of fitting used or we did a lot of systems furniture and it comes with sealtite whips and if we were short connectors a standard flex fitting will make it work. I wont ever do stuff that I feel is going to be a hazard to anyone. I have put a 2 pole 30 breaker in where we needed a single pole or two single poles and put a piece of wire in to tie them together. Technical violations, yes, but not much of a hazard in the environment we were working. The government is an interesting customer. They want a bid yesterday and then will wait 6 months and expect you to do it within minutes of being given the go ahead. Makes for some interesting work sometimes. Glad I'm not doing that anymore. Working for myself is much more personally gratifying than that. Those people remodel all the time. 2/3 of the stuff I installed has probably been ripped out and redone anyhow. I know one area I personally worked on 5 different times. Gets disheartening after a while to tear out the work you did last year just because they're ready to spend money again.


Then that's all pat on the back atta boy stuff. I've done a fair amount of work on government stuff. In my experience with them they were specing 1950 electro-mechanical controls when there were much more advanced electronics to do the same tasks. They like their stuff bulletproof at times.


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

ben franklin said:


> Had a customer today that wanted an underground run of PVC about 50'-75' to wire a light pole in his yard, he wants it ran with romex...


PVC -- with Romex inside ???

The Client writes the check, and so I would say "Yes Sir -- and perhaps do you mean that 'Romex' that is rated for direct burial? In the trade, we call that 'UF'..."

If he wants NM/UF pulled thru PVC, he ain't an electrician, time to whip out the NEC, "got some splainin to do Lucy..."

If he insists, again: he writes the check. Pull wire, cash check.

Also I would tell him, "For an extra $x00, we could run the 3/4 PVC and pull in our special THHN/THHW wire specifically rated for this purpose... If it goes bad 20 years from now you could re-pull it... And I guarantee my work for x years... But I'm only trying to do the best job I can for you Sir..."


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

TRurak said:


> Speaking of this, a customer just moved her shed. It had a 3/4 pvc running to it. She wanted an outlet where the shed was so I went over and installed one of those Arlington receptacle posts. The 3/4 pvc had a 12/2 uf in it ...... It's about 100' to the house ....... There was a pvc corner lb at the shed ....... I fought with that corner LB for 10 mins before I smashed it with a hammer .... I still don't know how they got the uf through the pvc or through the corner lb......


Such builds entail sleeving the PVC over the UF and then dropping the assembled mess into the ditch.

You can find YouTubers posting exactly such techniques -- if you want to kill some time.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It is POOR SALESMANSHIP to cross swords over Romex in the ditch -- PVC or no.

1) Romex = RomeX -- a brand name from Rome Cable Company. (Rome, New York)

A play on BX -- General Electric's tape-wrapped cable. ( The sheath of BX and MC starts life as a 'tape' of metal that is formed and rolled around the conductors -- as they advance through the machine. )

*2) Since Romex is a BRAND NAME -- you simply substitute it's equivalent -- without further ado -- and WITHOUT EXPLAINING WHY.*

Then in goes the UF. 

3) When the matter is raised, [ "I asked for Romex...."] you explain that UF is Romex's underground rated cable... *mandatory* once you exit conditioned spaces. ( ie building interiors 

&&&&&

As for the larger issue. Romex is banned in ALL wet spaces to get ahead of trouble of a most expensive kind: MOLD SPORES.
*
These can reach such levels that homes are condemned.*

Yup.

Rather than parse this or that situation -- the NEC // CEC BANS Romex all together where water invasion// capture and subsequent mold could be an issue.

The right stuff costs only a few shekels more, anyway.

Don't waste your life fidgeting over chump change in minor materials with a no-nothing civilian - or GC.


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Gladio Peribunt*



telsa said:


> It is POOR SALESMANSHIP to cross swords over Romex in the ditch...


I agree with you 100% Tel -- poor professionalism all the way around.

I only cross swords with my very best friends on my time off (and only when no one's looking...)

Seriously, yes "Romex(TM)" was first manufactured in Rome, N.Y. (few electricians know this -- kudos!)

Today however, nationwide the terms "Romex" and "NM" are interchangable.

"Romex" and "UF" however, are not...

(P.S. can we still "cross swords" ?)


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bromance! lol


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*The More The Merrier*



Majewski said:


> Bromance! lol


As you seem interested Maj, we could make it a 3-way sword-crossing if you were so inclined...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

philipdybel said:


> As you seem interested Maj, we could make it a 3-way sword-crossing if you were so inclined...


I never turn down an invite!


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Yes*



Majewski said:


> I never turn down an invite!


You bring the beer, I'll bring the Yellow 77...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> You bring the beer, I'll bring the Yellow 77...


I hear Blu-Goo washes off easier! Lol!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

philipdybel said:


> You bring the beer, I'll bring the Yellow 77...


I'll get Hamms, cheaper! lol


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*How Do You Know*



MechanicalDVR said:


> I hear Blu-Goo washes off easier! Lol!


Is the above response based on anecdotal evidence?


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Something Else I Learned Today*



Majewski said:


> I'll get Hamms, cheaper! lol


Wait -- is Hamms now cheaper than 77? I'll have to remember that...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

philipdybel said:


> Wait -- is Hamms now cheaper than 77? I'll have to remember that...


Isn't a 30pk of hamms like 12 bucks?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> Is the above response based on anecdotal evidence?


Yes, I heard about this from fellow workers for years!


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Trying To Learn*



MechanicalDVR said:


> Yes, I heard about this from fellow workers for years!


Only for sake of thoroughness of my electrical knowledge, do you happen to have their facebook/twitter/cel phone numbers?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I have their icq numbers and aol handles!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> Only for sake of thoroughness of my electrical knowledge, do you happen to have their facebook/twitter/cel phone numbers?


Not any longer I've lost touch with the majority of them. Ask the guys you work with some will know. Wear an "I like crossing swords" t-shirt, they may come ask you!


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*No TY*



MechanicalDVR said:


> Not any longer I've lost touch with the majority of them. Ask the guys you work with some will know. Wear an "I like crossing swords" t-shirt, they may come ask you!


I tried that once last year, the site safety mgr kicked my a** then threw me out onto the street. Suppose I'll try craigslist or backpage instead.

PS Mech your bantz rule...


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Regroup*



Majewski said:


> I have their icq numbers and aol handles!


Mech can take a short walk off a long pier, gimme them digits Maj!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> I tried that once last year, the site safety mgr kicked my a** then threw me out onto the street. Suppose I'll try craigslist or backpage instead.
> 
> PS Mech your bantz rule...


I'm old and get bored often so I enjoy the time here.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

philipdybel said:


> Mech can take a short walk off a long pier, gimme them digits Maj!


A gentleman never kisses and tells. lol


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Me 2*



MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm old and get bored often so I enjoy the time here.


Often I occupy the 7th circle of hell between 0700 and 1530.

I also truly appreciate my time here.

As well as the rest of you sword-crossers...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> Often I occupy the 7th circle of hell between 0700 and 1530.
> 
> I also truly appreciate my time here.
> 
> As well as the rest of you sword-crossers...


I'm not allowed anywhere near hell, I'm Sicilian and Scottish. Satan figures I may take over and dominate all the hot chics.


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Not Even*



MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm not allowed anywhere near hell, I'm Sicilian and Scottish. Satan figures I may take over and dominate all the hot chics.


Are you kidding me? I'm Polish & German, their bouncer Appolyon won't let me within 100 realms without calling the angels.

Seriously dude, look into the Succubi -- they're not in the tormenting flames, and it just might be what you're looking for...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

philipdybel said:


> Are you kidding me? I'm Polish & German, their bouncer Appolyon won't let me within 100 realms without calling the angels.
> 
> Seriously dude, look into the Succubi -- they're not in the tormenting flames, and it just might be what you're looking for...


LOL, I was called incubus for years.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

philipdybel said:


> Are you kidding me? I'm Polish & German, their bouncer Appolyon won't let me within 100 realms without calling the angels.
> 
> Seriously dude, look into the Succubi -- they're not in the tormenting flames, and it just might be what you're looking for...


I just want to drink beer and wire houses. lol


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

Majewski said:


> I just want to drink beer and wire houses. lol


I just want to continue to do my very best, on the very worst that industrial can throw at me: steel mills, cranes, 2am breakdowns... YOLO


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

At your rates, I don't blame you! Yolo is right! lol


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*You Know It*

Dam right -- it is a solid non-negotiable $10 service call fee, plus $7.50 per hour after that...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Gettin rich off those fees!


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## philipdybel (Feb 29, 2016)

*Junior*

Just call me Donald Trump Jr.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

smorkle said:


> I know I'm fixing to get crucified here, but I'd swear I've cut romex open before and seen standard THHN or THW on the individual strands. So, if you put THHN that happens to have an extra jacket on it and now is classified as NM inside a PVC conduit is a code violation? Inside a conduit seems protected from physical damage. Yes, underground is considered wet but if the individual strands are rated THHN, what difference does it make?


 You won't get crucified but, there are a couple problems with your claims. The conductors inside NM are not labeled and even if they were, THHN is for dry or damp locations not wet, it would have to be labeled THWN for wet locations.

Notice the wording in 334.112, it stops short of calling out a particular insulation type, only makes a point that it will be rated 90 deg.

Roger


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

Roger said:


> You won't get crucified but, there are a couple problems with your claims. The conductors inside NM are not labeled and even if they were, THHN is for dry or damp locations not wet, it would have to be labeled THWN for wet locations.
> 
> Notice the wording in 334.112, it stops short of calling out a particular insulation type, only makes a point that it will be rated 90 deg.
> 
> Roger


I was curious about this so I went out to my van and opened up a piece of romex. It clearly says THHN, MTW, THWN on the jacket of the inner wire. I suspect that it's actually easier for them to use standard wire inside the jacket than it is to manufacture a special wire with no classifications. Dont get me wrong, I'm NOT saying this is the proper way of doing an underground installation. I'm just saying it's not the great big, huge deal it's being made out to be.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Romex in conduit underground is going to be prominently featured at ACME ELECTRIC.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Romex in conduit underground is going to be prominently featured at ACME ELECTRIC.


I'm still waiting for my interview.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I'm still waiting for my interview.


Ok, lets do your interview right now. Are you willing to be paid per item of installed work? Piecework?

You will have to supply your own insurance by the way.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Ok, lets do your interview right now. Are you willing to be paid per item of installed work? Piecework?
> 
> You will have to supply your own insurance by the way.


I'm only willing to work for you if I can live on your property. For free...... And I get wages! lol


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

*It's Time for Your Mactip Of The Day!*

Always remember to yell "You're Fired!" really loud at your employee who is falling off of the ladder, and do it quickly before he hits the ground.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

smorkle said:


> I was curious about this so I went out to my van and opened up a piece of romex. It clearly says THHN, MTW, THWN on the jacket of the inner wire. I suspect that it's actually easier for them to use standard wire inside the jacket than it is to manufacture a special wire with no classifications. Dont get me wrong, I'm NOT saying this is the proper way of doing an underground installation. I'm just saying it's not the great big, huge deal it's being made out to be.


That's interesting, I'll forward your picture to Southwire for their input.

Here is what they say on their website


> *NM-B* *N*on*m*etallic-Sheathed Cable. The "B" denotes that individual conductor insulation is rated 90°C; however, ampacity is limited to that for a 60°C conductor (see NEC Section 336-26, 1999 edition). *Thermoplastic (PVC) conductor insulation-nylon jacketed, with overall PVC cable jacket.*


 Notice they do not specify a particular insulation either.


Roger


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

Hmm I always thought it was rated for 75 degrees not 60


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

TRurak said:


> Hmm I always thought it was rated for 75 degrees not 60


 
See 334.80

Roger


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> You are a licensed electrical contractor and you don't have a code book handy??


Yes.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Yes.


Right..I may not even have the upto date code ..I simply buy the analysis of code changes


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

Was it 60 degrees in contact with thermal insulation????


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

TRurak said:


> Was it 60 degrees in contact with thermal insulation????


If you are talking nm cable then it doesn't matter. Ser, depending on what code year would be affected by thermal insulation


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

smorkle said:


> I was curious about this so I went out to my van and opened up a piece of romex. It clearly says THHN, MTW, THWN on the jacket of the inner wire. I suspect that it's actually easier for them to use standard wire inside the jacket than it is to manufacture a special wire with no classifications. Dont get me wrong, I'm NOT saying this is the proper way of doing an underground installation. I'm just saying it's not the great big, huge deal it's being made out to be.


 So why did you remove the picture, was it contrived?

Roger


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

I didnt mean to?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

smorkle said:


> I didnt mean to?


Didn't mean to what, lie or remove the picture? You edited almost two hours after you posted when it was apparent that Southwire would be brought to the party.  I will still talk to my local Southwire rep Monday

 If you mean you didn't mean to remove the picture two hours after you posted it then just repost it


Roger


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Folks we must keep in mind that Romex is part of a total system of standards.

Starting with the fact that it lands on 60 C rated breakers// fuse holders ... and is snaked around WOODEN structures ... by primitives.

The Code is not written so that you, wearing your EE hat, can re-determine engineering limitations.

The Code is written to eliminate even LOW ODDS events -- when, should they occur, they harm someone, kill someone. ( financially break someone )

The primary reason that Romex is forbidden in wet locations: it becomes a mold wick.

This is more than enough to make a residence uninhabitable. Yes, you bet.

As a mold wick, it keeps re-infecting the conditioned space -- going on forever -- never to be banished until the Romex is ripped out.

This wicking effect can take mold that starts out doors -- and bring it -- oh so slowly -- right on into the home.

Molds emit toxins that are astoundingly irritating to the lungs -- and our immune system. So it's no surprise that many suffer intense allergic reactions.

This above mechanism of slow-motion ruin is not at all apparent to Mr. Trunkslammer, for he's well on down the road when the damage really kicks in.


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## smorkle (May 17, 2016)

You certainly are accusatory. I was trying to copy and paste some stuff for another forum and on this phone I have to have text entry to do that. The edit feature is how I have discovered I could get there. I deleted the photo by accident. And since you have proven to be not nice and are just out to call me a liar I'm not going to repost anything, not going to argue further. I'm gonna take he high road here and unfollow this thread.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Smorkle, I am going to ask you to post that picture. It's something that we all would be very interested in seeing.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Smorkle, I am going to ask you to post that picture. It's something that we all would be very interested in seeing.



Don't hold your breath, it was a fake but, it would be nice to see it again

Roger


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Boy that escalated quickly.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Boy that escalated quickly.


And to think how reposting the picture would be so easy. 

Roger


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I kinda wanna go look at my romex now but... I'm on the couch and the romex is in the van...... Sweating just thinking of it.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

Majewski said:


> I kinda wanna go look at my romex now but... I'm on the couch and the romex is in the van...... Sweating just thinking of it.


Same here but I was like...it'll be there when ever I have to get in truck


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Never a big user of NM but I have a fair memory for the most part and can't recall ever seeing anything printed on the conductor jackets.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Never a big user of NM but I have a fair memory for the most part and can't recall ever seeing anything printed on the conductor jackets.


Me neither, and I've looked. 

But then, my last roll of Romex is now ancient.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> Me neither, and I've looked.


Same here... if I find wire without markings in conduit, it's usually someone transitioned from NM to EMT and stripped the NM for the last leg.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> The primary reason that Romex is forbidden in wet locations: it becomes a mold wick.


When was Romex originally forbidden in wet locations? At that time, was it forbidden because it becomes a mold wick?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Stripped out some old cloth-covered and found conductors marked TW but don't remember ever finding any marked thhn


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

All the romex I've installed has never had any markings on the individual conductors.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> Stripped out some old cloth-covered and found conductors marked TW but don't remember ever finding any marked thhn


Was it the silver colored cloth and the reduced size ground? How old was the building you found it in?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> When was Romex originally forbidden in wet locations? At that time, was it forbidden because it becomes a mold wick?


It's before my time, but I've heard tell that the ORIGINAL sheaths were of such low quality vis a vis water (cheap, cheap, cheap) that they'd lose their strength when wet.

Suffice it to say, once paper was integral to Romex -- it had other 'issues.'

In any event, this boy does not fight the Code mavens.

I will leave that second guessing up to others. :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Me neither, and I've looked.
> 
> But then, my last roll of Romex is now ancient.


Same here brother. Every roll in my garage is 'white' jacketed. I have one new roll of orange (10-2) I was recently given.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

You should try to post pictures and ask people to sell it for you online.


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## ben franklin (Nov 15, 2014)

So while I'm doing my weekly cleaning up of my truck..I decided to cut some Romex.. good job photoshopping


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I photoshop diamond encrusted conductors on my romex. Then I show it to people while I give them a HUGE bid. They never seem to believe it though.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

UF will live if buried deep enough and with soft fill. I'd rather use pvc with thwn2 given the choice. Make good money fixing all the junky UF installs out there.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Was it the silver colored cloth and the reduced size ground? How old was the building you found it in?


Yes that silver colored cloth.

I don't think it had a ground.

Late 60's--early 70's, old enough to have 2-prong receps and Ga Pwr wiring plan panel, new enough to have breakers instead of fuses


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> It's before my time, but I've heard tell that the ORIGINAL sheaths were of such low quality vis a vis water (cheap, cheap, cheap) that they'd lose their strength when wet.
> 
> Suffice it to say, once paper was integral to Romex -- it had other 'issues.'
> 
> ...


So romex not forbidden because of mold wick but because of other reasons?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Few more pages debating romex and I'm about ready to just do everything in rigid. lol


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> So romex not forbidden because of mold wick but because of other reasons?


Insulation isn't THWN. 60 degree column is used for circuit ampacity and 90 degree column is used for derating.


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