# range in kitchen island



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Could you guys suggest a location to stub a 3/4 & 1" pvc conduit to this island. BTW, house panel is in laundry behind door swing and house is slab.

i have a call into the GC to get an elevation detail on this island. i can't tell from this one electrical sheet where the framed island wall is in relation to the counter top and if it's just a range top or range/oven.

At any rate, what's your method of choice (i.e. stub dead center in back island wall or inside island cavity somewhere.)

Thanks for the help.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd find out if there is a downdraft vent. The is key info. I don't see an oven anywhere else. Gas or electric.

I don't wire a kitchen without a kitchen plan. I let too many GC'S dictate where stuff was going and what it was with horrible results. Now if I don't have a detailed kitchen layout, not just blueprints like shown here, I don't even start wiring. 

Also, that is the WORST possible lighting layout for that kitchen.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Brand, model #, spec sheets etc. are critical. Islands are a pain especially for that one receptacle that has to go somewhere. Let me guess, no basement here, so no downdraft vent.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I just run it though the basement after the cabinetry is installed. :jester:

It must be fun to do these jobs with slab work. :no:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

If that's a cooktop, I'd shoot for center/back.

If it's a range, I'd try to put the JB somewhere more easily accessible than behind a drop in range. You realy need a cabinet detail to see where that might be. 

Also, remember that NM isn't "legal" in the conduit under a slab. :whistling2:


If you use UF, or if local AHJ doesn't mind NM, you can stub up anywhere under the cabinet kick and adjust it to fit upon cabinet installation.



ANd yeah, fix the lighting layout.:laughing:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Brand, model #, spec sheets etc. are critical. Islands are a pain especially for that one receptacle that has to go somewhere. Let me guess, no basement here, so no downdraft vent.


Yeah, slab on grade. This page just says, #2-"electric range" "provide 110v outlet on separate circuit". Also, if that is a bar type overhang on the back more than 6", the GFCI shown is a no go.



220/221 said:


> If that's a cooktop, I'd shoot for center/back.
> 
> If it's a range, I'd try to put the JB somewhere more easily accessible than behind a drop in range. You realy need a cabinet detail to see where that might be.
> 
> ...


i do need a lot more detail. If it's a range, i could hit the side wall with a cord and cap.

No NM in wet location and no cable in conduit here.:thumbsup:

Got to looking at the lighting and seems like shadows everywhere. Is this what you mean? Heck, i don't even see a sink light.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

3xdad said:


> i do need a lot more detail. If it's an oven, i could hit the side wall with a cord and cap.
> 
> Do you mean range?
> 
> Got to looking at the lighting and seems like shadows everywhere. Is this what you mean? Heck, i don't even see a sink light.


Imagine trying to work in that kitchen. Every work space has lighting _behind _you.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

> Do you mean range?


Fixed it.



electricmanscott said:


> Imagine trying to work in that kitchen. Every work space has lighting _behind _you.


Hard to see what you're do'in even _without _cooking smoke everywhere.:jester:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would actually run two conduits- one for the range and one to the recep. on the island. I would have the range pipe stub up about 10" from center.

The other, I would stub up in one of the side cabinet kick space since it appears this is a range not cooktop. I would also run the wire in now and make sure it is long enough to reach the outlet. I would also hold the GC responsible to get me there while the cabinet is being installed to make sure it goes where I need it. 

Remember that any wire in this conduit must be wet location, no NM cables.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

This page just says, #2-"electric range" "provide 110v outlet on separate circuit"

I would ask the GC for a clarification. 110 volts tells me that you are supplying for a GAS cook-top.
As previously mentioned, ask for appliance shop drawings and cabinet drawings.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would actually run two conduits- one for the range and one to the recep. on the island. I would have the range pipe stub up about 10" from center.
> 
> The other, I would stub up in one of the side cabinet kick space since it appears this is a range not cooktop. I would also run the wire in now and make sure it is long enough to reach the outlet. I would also hold the GC responsible to get me there while the cabinet is being installed to make sure it goes where I need it.
> 
> Remember that any wire in this conduit must be wet location, no NM cables.


Yes, i am running two conduits. Dennis, could you elaborate more on the conduit stub in the kick space. To me, kick space is outside the cabinet in the finish floor.



wcord said:


> This page just says, #2-"electric range" "provide 110v outlet on separate circuit"
> 
> I would ask the GC for a clarification. 110 volts tells me that you are supplying for a GAS cook-top.
> As previously mentioned, ask for appliance shop drawings and cabinet drawings.


This is just a dedicated recept in addition to the 4 wire for the range and the SABC. They just do this in case the HO ever uses a gas appliance, but in this case it's BS because there are no gas stubs. 
More and more, i think this is one of those generic copy/paste plans.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think you're going to have to have a meeting or a conversation with the cabinet people and whoever is providing the stove to make sure where that feed needs to be. Sometimes its pretty specific. Where the stub up is for the receptacles is another story.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I generally stub up pretty much centered, but only a 3" stub. These things all have a kickspace you can changeover to greenfield and run that up inside anywhere.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Also, remember that NM isn't "legal" in the conduit under a slab.


 But if the slab isn't in direct contact with the earth(insulated/plastic) it is not a wet location. Then you can run NM in conduit in the slab. Art 100 (Locations, Wet) Art 334.12


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

backstay said:


> But if the slab isn't in direct contact with the earth(insulated/plastic) it is not a wet location. Then you can run NM in conduit in the slab. Art 100 (Locations, Wet) Art 334.12


 


From the NEC.


*Wet Locations:​*Installations undergroundor* in concrete slabs* or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.​ 



BTW, I am just arguing semantics. I'd use NM without losing any sleep.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I am just arguing semantics. I'd use NM without losing any sleep.[/SIZE]


I did that years ago and got turned down but you are totally correct about never having trouble with it.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

My friends bought a junky tract house in California and I was able to see it and the other ones in their neighborhood under construction. They were using 3/4" or 1" PVC and UF cable for the island outlets and appliances even way back in the stone age of the late 90's. I would guess this is commonplace for slab homes.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Yes, i am running two conduits. Dennis, could you elaborate more on the conduit stub in the kick space. To me, kick space is outside the cabinet in the finish floor.


You are correct, I was talking about the 3" high space that forms the kickspace. All cabinets I have seen are built up 3"- 3 1/2" and the cabinet sits on top of that. I would bring my pipe in that space. I have seen many ranges where that pipe could be an issue if it is in that space. This would be a problem with a free standing range. 

Also the island often moves a bit so I would center it under one of the dead spaces on either side of the range.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

220/221 said:


> From the NEC.
> 
> 
> *Wet Locations:*
> ...


You just proved my point(concrete slabs or masonary in direct contact with the earth). You can look at a modern slab that is isolated from earth just like a multi story building that has concrete on each floor(not a wet location).


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Yeah, slab on grade.
> No NM in wet location and no cable in conduit here.:thumbsup:





backstay said:


> You just proved my point(concrete slabs or masonary in direct contact with the earth). You can look at a modern slab that is isolated from earth just like a multi story building that has concrete on each floor(not a wet location).



You are correct but the OP has a slab on grade.


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## cal1947 (Nov 14, 2009)

*tofer*

i agree with scott the lighting needs to be over the counter tops


electricmanscott said:


> I'd find out if there is a downdraft vent. The is key info. I don't see an oven anywhere else. Gas or electric.
> 
> I don't wire a kitchen without a kitchen plan. I let too many GC'S dictate where stuff was going and what it was with horrible results. Now if I don't have a detailed kitchen layout, not just blueprints like shown here, I don't even start wiring.
> 
> Also, that is the WORST possible lighting layout for that kitchen.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

*update*

The GC that has the set of plans read to me over the phone that it only says, "24 inch deep base cabinets."

i appreciate the info you guys have given me, because when i questioned the GC and homeowner about how to vent the cooktop, it was like nobody thought of it and they scrambled and came up with, "We'll just frame something down from the ceiling to mount a vent hood." 

HO added a convection oven to the left of the sink.

Anyway, here's the stub pictures. Using a 1/4" scale, i landed the two conduits at the center rear of the cooktop.

Thanks again for all of the reply's.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I hope they don't move that island. I would never have done that as the islands inevitable get moved on installation.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I hope they don't move that island. I would never have done that as the islands inevitable get moved on installation.


If that was a concern I would go with some Walker duct of similar method. Looks like it's not too late to throw a piece of that in the slab.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If that was a concern I would go with some Walker duct of similar method. Looks like it's not too late to throw a piece of that in the slab.


This is why I said earlier to stub up under the cabinets not the range. I would have picked the direction where it was least likely to move and favor toward the range. It would give the best options if it is moved. I have seen them move cabinets 6" or so. That would be a problem if you are at the edge.

I don't see the need for walker duct.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is why I said earlier to stub up under the cabinets not the range. I would have picked the direction where it was least likely to move and favor toward the range. It would give the best options if it is moved. I have seen them move cabinets 6" or so. That would be a problem if you are at the edge.
> 
> I don't see the need for walker duct.



Oh I guess I misunderstood. Yes, I would definitely stub up under the cabinets too.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

According to the GC, it's 3 base cabinets with "cooktop" installed on center cabinet. (which i don't necessarily like. i think it should just be a framed island with cooktop cut into countertop.) Dennis, i did take into consideration yours and Marc's recommendation to stub in the kickspace of a cabinet, i just chose to stub in the center one because it's just a cooktop.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3xdad said:


> According to the GC, it's 3 base cabinets with "cooktop" installed on center cabinet. (which i don't necessarily like. i think it should just be a framed island with cooktop cut into countertop.) Dennis, i did take into consideration yours and Marc's recommendation to stub in the kickspace of a cabinet, i just chose to stub in the center one because it's just a cooktop.


Okay if it is just a cooktop that good but I would have kept it from the edge in case they move the island. I thought you stated it was towards the edge.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Thre is no oven in that kitchen. :jester:

If the island gets moved, the fresh concrete gets hammered out. Walker duct is a little extreme.

As far as the NM in the slab, I do it all the time. If I get called on it (twice so far out of....100??), I pull it out and install UF. IMO the code is not written clearly enough to argue the point that NM should be acceptable.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

220/221 said:


> As far as the NM in the slab, I do it all the time. If I get called on it (twice so far out of....100??), I pull it out and install UF. IMO the code is not written clearly enough to argue the point that NM should be acceptable.


Allow me to make it clear.



> 300.5(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. *Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.8(C).* Any connections or splices in an underground installation shall be approved for wet locations.


Definitions



> Location, Wet. I*nstallations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth;* in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry*in direct contact with the earth;*


The concrete or conduit may not be *in direct contact with the earth*. It depends on how much AB is down.

Not clear IMO


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

220/221 said:


> The concrete or conduit may not be *in direct contact with the earth*. It depends on how much AB is down.
> 
> Not clear IMO


The stone is in contact with the earth. The idea is that there is condensation that will get into the pipe. A slab on a second floor of a building is not on grade.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The stone is in contact with the earth.


It doesn't say stone. It says conduit or concrete.



> The idea is that there is condensation that will get into the pipe.


I understand *the idea* and that's why *I know* there will never ever be any water or moisture in a conduit feeding a kitchen island, in or just under slab in AZ and that's why I don't hesitate to use NM in these situations. 

If you are for some reason going to bury the conduit two or three feet under the slab, I can see where some condensation _may_ occur.

NEC is drawing the line at the cottom of the concrete which, in most slab houses, is NOT in contact with the earth.

I think that local inspectors feel the same way. I don't know if there are local code amendments to cover this. I just know that I've never seen UF in these installations except the two times I was required to use it.

When it comes down to it, I base most of my installations on *intent.* For example, I know that NEC says "no NM outdoors" and I understand the intent. I would not run NM in PVC underground but I still wouldn't hesitate to stub out and sleeve it for a floodlight under an eave.


I'm not trying to be argumentitive BTW, just having a discussion.


Just to add another technical issue, if it was monolithic type slab where the footings are one with the slab, the footings would be in contact with the earth therefore the slab would be in contact with the earth.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I thought when you said AB you meant stone.... I was guessing as I don't know what AB. 

Do you mean to tell me there is never any condensation in a conduit in a ground. I don't mean moisture from the ground I am talking from the A/C (swamp cooled) house to outside there can be a temp difference that can create condensation. Personally, I think nm would work for years in water-- I am just stating code. I have seen NM underground in NC and still working fine after 30 years.

When I first moved here the well pump guys used to run the 3 wire TW for the pumps in the ground back to the house where the holding tanks were. It was not UF but standard well pump wire.

I just don't see the big deal in conforming with the short piece of UF. We have few houses on slab here but I know AZ has many if not all homes on slab.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Every island I've done I used NM in the pvc to it or THWN depending on how we were wiring the building. I doubt the temp in the the house and walls will be different enough to cause any serious condensation.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought when you said AB you meant stone.... I was guessing as I don't know what AB.
> 
> .


 
By AB, I meant stone. The concrete (generally) sits on the stone, not on the earth. The conduit (generally) would be in the AB, not in the earth.

The NEC seems to draw the line at the earth/dirt/soil.





> Do you mean to tell me there is never any condensation in a conduit in a ground.I don't mean moisture from the ground I am talking from the A/C (swamp cooled) house to outside there can be a temp difference that can create condensation


 
In the *ground*, yes. In the slab or within a few inches of it, no. The temp difference in that short distance (IMO) is negligible. Go a couple/few feet down and it may change.




> I just don't see the big deal in conforming with the short piece of UF. We have few houses on slab here but I know AZ has many if not all homes on slab.


Sometimes it's not a big deal at all, especially if it's just the recep circuit. 

If it's a range or cootop, you have to stock 10/3 and 8/3 UF and install another splice, or run it all the way, or add a jb/splice and run THWN which gives you less flexibility and JB's in cabinets.

The nice thing about cable is that you can land anywhere under the caninet kick and easily route the cable to a good location.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

*update*

Stopped by this job today to check out the house. The panel pipes hit well in the utility wall, but the island stub remains to be seen.:whistling2:

This is an owner/builder and is taking his time on the house. He came out to frame up and dry in then said that the plumber and i need to be done by March at which time he's gonna insulate.:laughing::thumbup:.




























thanks for look'n. Man, i do enjoy posting pics.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Could you guys suggest a location to stub a 3/4 & 1" pvc conduit to this island. BTW, house panel is in laundry behind door swing and house is slab.
> 
> i have a call into the GC to get an elevation detail on this island. i can't tell from this one electrical sheet where the framed island wall is in relation to the counter top and if it's just a range top or range/oven.
> 
> ...


I know that this won't be helpful, but I have never seen a slab house with a ten foot ceiling anywhere in my experience.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Until now, here on ET.:thumbsup:

Is there a known downside to that?


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