# FR



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Welcome to the club Dave.

Jobs I'm on, we have to wear all FR clothes, .... just to be on the jobsite !


I could be dressed in an Armani for cheaper :surprise:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

emtnut said:


> Welcome to the club Dave.
> 
> Jobs I'm on, we have to wear all FR clothes, .... just to be on the jobsite !
> 
> ...


Armani Exchange maybe but not real Armani. Jeebus. Do I really need to teach you primitives about fashion?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

davegerver said:


> Was on a job today where you are required to wear FR just to open a panel cover to look at panel schedule. Soon we are going to be required to suit up to plug a cord in. Can't take it anymore. Getting out of hand
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Just wear your coveralls and live with it. No big deal.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> Armani Exchange maybe but not real Armani. Jeebus. Do I really need to teach you primitives about fashion?


You can try to teach me about it .... Job security for life. I'm the guy that shows up to a funeral in shorts and a t-shirt :biggrin:


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I’ve worn FR since I worked in an iron foundry some 15 years ago. Now even linemen wear it even when not working live.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

sweat shirt and jeans costs under $100 for fr. No one said fr had to be uncomfortable until you get to the higher arc ratings.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Had my 74 Cal suit on 5 times this week already this week.

LC


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Welcome to Electrician Talk. 
Please take a few minutes and fill out your profile.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I found those unsatisfying to wear. The last time I put
one on they looked like this


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I'm thinking Robots... like the cops use to defuse the bad things that some people leave behind.

They could open the panel doors to read the schedule and perhaps even reset a breaker.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Yes, safety requirements are indeed getting out of hand. Way out of hand. 

How long until it's required to bring down the entire national grid so a licensed electrician who has received at least 4,000 hours of training in the task at hand and has filled out at least 264 pages of site and task specific paperwork is permitted to change a light bulb. 

Way, was out of hand.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Put on your ppe, what ever is required by the client, copy the panel directory, and post a laminated version outside the panel.. Not sure what that good will do, since you'll probably need your ppe again to open the door to see if the breaker is tripped.. lol...


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

glen1971 said:


> Put on your ppe, what ever is required by the client, copy the panel directory, and post a laminated version outside the panel.. Not sure what that good will do, since you'll probably need your ppe again to open the door to see if the breaker is tripped.. lol...


Time for Plexiglas windows in panel doors? 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

davegerver said:


> Was on a job today where you are required to wear FR just to open a panel cover to look at panel schedule. Soon we are going to be required to suit up to plug a cord in. Can't take it anymore. Getting out of hand


Welcome aboard @davegerver!

Get used to it.

FR really isn't a big deal.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Welcome to the club Dave.
> 
> Jobs I'm on, we have to wear all FR clothes, .... just to be on the jobsite !
> 
> ...


Wow you are way out of touch with Armani suit prices!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Armani Exchange maybe but not real Armani. Jeebus. Do I really need to teach you primitives about fashion?


Maybe he saw some Fred Armani stuff at Marshall's or something!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

paulengr said:


> I’ve worn FR since I worked in an iron foundry some 15 years ago. Now even linemen wear it even when not working live.


From what I've heard linemen have been required to wear FR clothes (jeans, shirts, jackets, etc) for a long while now, at least 12-15 years.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> Yes, safety requirements are indeed getting out of hand. Way out of hand.
> 
> How long until it's required to bring down the entire national grid so a licensed electrician who has received at least 4,000 hours of training in the task at hand and has filled out at least 264 pages of site and task specific paperwork is permitted to change a light bulb.
> 
> Way, was out of hand.


Wait until we get some more Cali style politicians in office....then we will know what really nutso restrictions are.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

FR shirts and pants are mandatory for us at all times, I cover all costs of clothing and there are almost no complaints at all. There are a lot of hacks out there so you never know what was done before you arrived on site and actually I have seen a panel cover fall off due to badly stripped mount holes when someone opened the door to check a breaker. Things like that are worse now that everyone seems to think a 18V drill is the answer to even the smallest of screws.


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## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

I prefer to where FR rated stuff


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

greenman said:


> I prefer to where FR rated stuff


The flesh you save would be your own!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

daveEM said:


> I'm thinking Robots... like the cops use to defuse the bad things that some people leave behind.
> 
> They could open the panel doors to read the schedule and perhaps even reset a breaker.


We build those


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

B-Nabs said:


> Time for Plexiglas windows in panel doors?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


We already do that on transformers to avoid having to wear the high fr clothing while checking the gauges during a PM. They also make IR windows to avoid having to open the doors during that PM.

Biggest fear is a snake or rat inside the transformer near the exposed connections so i like the plexiglas and IR windows as it allows you to check before opening the doors.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Many service companies uniforms are FR now. Not arc rated, just FR, there is a difference. 

I used to do service in a building in a 50/50 cotton polyester work shirt supplied by my employer and the facility maintenance guys had to wear actual arc rated clothes. Pretty funny considering all they did was change light bulbs.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Many service companies uniforms are FR now. *Not arc rated, just FR, there is a difference. *
> 
> I used to do service in a building in a 50/50 cotton polyester work shirt supplied by my employer and the facility maintenance guys had to wear actual arc rated clothes. Pretty funny considering all they did was change light bulbs.


YES a huge difference.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> We build those


How about robots for racking MV breakers in and out? 

That always bothers me.....a lot......Even suited up, I'd much rather have a machine do it.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

micromind said:


> How about robots for racking MV breakers in and out?
> 
> That always bothers me.....a lot......Even suited up, I'd much rather have a machine do it.


Funny how the motor sounds like arcing when it engages to buss.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Many service companies uniforms are FR now. Not arc rated, just FR, there is a difference.
> 
> I used to do service in a building in a 50/50 cotton polyester work shirt supplied by my employer and the facility maintenance guys had to wear actual arc rated clothes. Pretty funny considering all they did was change light bulbs.


 Yep ive called for life flight and had to give first aid to some contractors that were meant to be experts in MV-HV which is why we contracted the job out in the first place. 
They use to joke about our arc rated gear especially when we were sweating buckets out in the sun. Luckily we had the arc zone marked out so we were at a safe distance when it went pear shaped. It would have been a shame to have ruin a nice arc flash shirt.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

micromind said:


> How about robots for racking MV breakers in and out?
> 
> That always bothers me.....a lot......Even suited up, I'd much rather have a machine do it.


Good idea. 

Most of the arc flash accidents I’ve seen on video was someone racking breakers


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> From what I've heard linemen have been required to wear FR clothes (jeans, shirts, jackets, etc) for a long while now, at least 12-15 years.


The regulation went into effect in 2015. Some companies switched earlier.


Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

micromind said:


> How about robots for racking MV breakers in and out?
> 
> That always bothers me.....a lot......Even suited up, I'd much rather have a machine do it.


Those remote racking things either don't work or damage equipment. They are getting better but not even close to people doing it. You know when something doesn't feel right.

I didn't know this until recently but Square D model 5 buckets have built in disconnects. You squeeze a handle and it pulls the stabs off the bus. Push another to release the bucket latch, then slide it all out on a fairly tight tolerance rail. Sliding in is the same.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

gpop said:


> Yep ive called for life flight and had to give first aid to some contractors that were meant to be experts in MV-HV which is why we contracted the job out in the first place.
> 
> They use to joke about our arc rated gear especially when we were sweating buckets out in the sun. Luckily we had the arc zone marked out so we were at a safe distance when it went pear shaped. It would have been a shame to have ruin a nice arc flash shirt.




Medium voltage arc flash is much less than 480. Right off the transformer above 1500 kva it’s hard to keep arc flash under 40 cal. At 4160 this doesn’t happen until somewhere above 10, 000 kva. Arc flash mostly comes from current and time. Voltage is a minor factor. 

On top of that equipment clearances are much larger and insulation is much thicker. Unlike 480 where everything is rated 600 V so the controls and power are all mixed together in the same space, medium voltage separates them. And Code requires more aggressive latches. No screwdriver interlock defeats. So overall it’s safer to work on by design:

There are two major differences in safety. First even though 480 can arc up to an inch under the right conditions most of the time you almost have to touch it. Medium voltage will arc a few inches and unshielded cables can carry voltage on the insulation. So you treat all cables as if they are bare.

The second difference is voltage is electron pressure: You don’t need special terminations at low voltage but you need stress (pressure) relief. Cable routing becomes critical. At 15 kV even insulation nicks and burs on metal parts are dangerous. This starts at 2000-3000 V and above. This by far is what gets low voltage guys in trouble.

So yes you have to know what you are doing: NEC is not much of a guide: But arc flash is much less risk.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

micromind said:


> How about robots for racking MV breakers in and out?
> 
> That always bothers me.....a lot......Even suited up, I'd much rather have a machine do it.


Yep, racking and remote operating of every MV/LV breaker or switch out there. You don't even have to be in the same room if you opt for wireless control and cameras.


http://www.pgecurrents.com/video/new-procedure-reduces-dangers-at-power-plant/


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

paulengr said:


> Those remote racking things either don't work or damage equipment. They are getting better but not even close to people doing it. You know when something doesn't feel right.


I have several breakers here now in my shop getting racking mechs repaired that were damaged by people who didn't know something wasn't right. 


A good remote racking system will have electrical (Current shut off) and mechanical (Clutch) protection from over torqueing. Machine will shut down if it is too hard to rack.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

gpop said:


> Funny how the motor sounds like arcing when it engages to buss.


Actually there is arcing right before it touches the buss, sounds like an air leak. Arcs from the bus to the breaker for a second until the breaker gets up to bus potential.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> Yep ive called for life flight and had to give first aid to some contractors that were meant to be experts in MV-HV which is why we contracted the job out in the first place.
> They use to joke about our arc rated gear especially when we were sweating buckets out in the sun. Luckily we had the arc zone marked out so we were at a safe distance when it went pear shaped. *It would have been a shame to have ruin a nice arc flash shirt.*


I think the damage to one's undergarments would be more a bio hazard than ones shirt!


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I think the damage to one's undergarments would be more a bio hazard than ones shirt!

Always start with a safety meeting.
Ppe ....check
Skid resistant underware....check
First aider willing to kiss the old goat....anyone...anyone


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> I think the damage to one's undergarments would be more a bio hazard than ones shirt!


Always start with a safety meeting.
Ppe ....check
Skid resistant underware....check
First aider willing to kiss the old goat....anyone...anyone[/QUOTE]

Been an EMT since junior high and never had the desire to kiss anyone stricken but do carry a CPR mask with a valve in my gear. Ya never know!


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

paulengr said:


> Medium voltage arc flash is much less than 480. Right off the transformer above 1500 kva it’s hard to keep arc flash under 40 cal. At 4160 this doesn’t happen until somewhere above 10, 000 kva. Arc flash mostly comes from current and time. Voltage is a minor factor.
> 
> On top of that equipment clearances are much larger and insulation is much thicker. Unlike 480 where everything is rated 600 V so the controls and power are all mixed together in the same space, medium voltage separates them. And Code requires more aggressive latches. No screwdriver interlock defeats. So overall it’s safer to work on by design:
> 
> ...


Im either very lucky or unlucky.

I have seen arc flash at 277, 480, 4160, 14400 and what ever lightning is. 

The 277 was kinda my fault as it never dawned on me that a new fuse holder could be bad (maybe a off cut of wire, drill shavings after construction). I never tested for it and i wasn't seriously wearing my ppe as i never expected a problem. (dropped the mask, engaged the breaker and got a nice surprise)

480 was a 2000amp plate feeder between the transformer and mcc. Parked about 25 feet away in the company truck in the middle of the night. Seen a big flash followed by small white balls. Then all the lights went out. 
Must have walked past that thing a thousand times before that happened.

4160 was another night time fireworks display. Motor siezed front bearing caused the motor stator to crash the windings and throw the casing minus feet 4' backwards. 

14400 was a contractor that forgot the most important lesson in HV. It aint dead till its grounded. 

25kv i didnt see i but i heard it. (wasnt on the electrical team back then). 
Looks like a failed seal leaked the oil in to the conduits. When it got low enough it blew the doors open and dry roasted the grass for 15 feet. 

Lightning was a strike to the 3p power pole 30 feet away. Meter was blown off the pole, Transformer TVSS smoked, Switch gear TVSS smoked and 8 drives popped. All i remember was wanting to run so i ran in circles because i hadnt deiced which way to go. 

The whole point to this post is that stuff happens and some times you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I can not justify you wearing ppe because theres a one in a billion chance that lightning will hit the feed to the panel. I know that ppe wont stop you getting splattered by a 1500hp motor winding thats broke free. But i can promise you that wearing arc rated ppe especially with out the mask and gloves wont hurt you. 

Romex runners are going to read this and laugh. Then someone will tell the story of jimmy/fred/sid who held the meter between his legs because he didnt have 3 hands. Forgot to set the meter to volts to test 240v and dry roasted his junk.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wow you are way out of touch with Armani suit prices!


I still look good in a cheap suit :biggrin:

Could be cause my FR is all high vis as well,
But the winter parka $800
Bib overalls (insulated) $500
Bib overalls $250
Jacket $300
Hoodie $250
Shirt $125 x8 (short and long sleeve)
pants $150 x4

Not quite Armani (after a quick google search) .... but EXPENSIVE !!!

OK, was all employer provided.... but still :surprise:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> I still look good in a cheap suit :biggrin:
> 
> Could be cause my FR is all high vis as well,
> But the winter parka $800
> ...


Ever try buying from Grainger?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

gpop said:


> Im either very lucky or unlucky.
> 
> I have seen arc flash at 277, 480, 4160, 14400 and what ever lightning is.
> 
> Romex runners are going to read this and laugh. Then someone will tell the story of jimmy/fred/sid who held the meter between his legs because he didnt have 3 hands. Forgot to set the meter to volts to test 240v and dry roasted his junk.


The point isn't that it's not a hazard. There is even a possible (but not very likely) arc flash hazard for 120/240 V service, contrary to popular belief. See here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6mGRCG7wns_bHZIRDl5VzlDSWM

So I'm not going to argue that arc flash does not exist at any voltage except that it is theoretically impossible at 28 VDC (Ayrton's equation) and below the safety thresholds somewhere around 200-300 VAC, or around 100-150 VDC. I don't mean you can't get a burn...that it doesn't meet the second degree burn in the face/chest criteria.

The point though is that I repeatedly see claims that medium voltage is far more dangerous than low voltage. That's simply not true. There are three ways it's more dangerous. First off how close something needs to get before it arcs over is a LOT closer, assuming you have access to the live end of things. The second difference is that workmanship particularly knife cuts and taping around terminations is a lot more critical. Less at 4160 but as voltage goes up it only takes a couple months to blow something up if you don't know what you're doing. The third difference is that it is very intolerant of contamination.

BUT arc flash is much less for the same amount of power. The secondary side of a 14,400:480 transformer is almost ten times what the arc flash off a 14,400:4160 transformer is if both transformers are the same size. At 2500 kVA, your 40 cal suit is under-rated for 480 V but it might only be 8-12 cal at 4160 where you can use just arc rated shirt and pants and a mask without the full on space suit.

Second difference is that equipment spacings at 4160 are about 4" or more compared to 1" with 480 V. That's on top of the fact that NEC requires a much more difficult lock/protection system to prevent unauthorized access for medium voltage while just about anyone can get into a 480 V panel. There's just so much more room at 4160 and above that it is more forgiving towards mistakes that are common at 480. I mean I have a guy on my crew that accidentally got hit with 480 V when we were in an industrial control panel and he reached up to the line side of the circuit breaker and grabbed on to get leverage on what we were doing...big mistake. Something that you pretty much can't do even accidentally with the way 4160 equipment is built. Disconnected and racked out means just that with rare exceptions.

That brings up the next one. I can open a 480 V MCC and get to the 480 V side of things while it's energized using a flat blade screwdriver in about 5 seconds. With a 4160 V starter if I can do it at all I have to bypass a bunch of door interlocks or take the door apart which takes a lot more time to do. Often this causes a lot of problems if there are no convenient PT's or CT's just trying to get a meter reading. You start having to do creative things like disassemble a Kirk Key interlock and leave half the interlock jammed into the lock to get the door open for testing or use a Rogowski coil meter and close the door on the cord. The stuff is much closer to "idiot proof" compared to an MCC bucket door where even a completely unqualified operator figures out how to get the door open in about a minute or two of trying. So it keeps them mostly out.

Hence my beef is claiming that as voltage goes up, the DANGER goes up. That's simply a myth. I have a lot more trouble troubleshooting a little half height MCC bucket with a 5 HP motor compared to the trouble I have with a full height 3000 HP, 4160 V MVCC "bucket". For one thing the MCC bucket is so small I have to get out the micro screwdrivers and I'm often probing around in 120 V controls that are still live and hard to figure out where to disable them even if the disconnect is open, and it's hard to even see what's going on in the starter. Totally different world in the 3000 HP bucket where the 120 V controls are in a separate isolated compartment and everything is clearly visible and laid out nicely so sometimes I have to crawl into the bucket to do something but I'm in no danger of getting nailed by a 120 V control somewhere I can't see even when I think I've tested everything.


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