# Need options for this stove receptacle



## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

This is in Ontario, Canada.
I started a small kitchen refresh this week and found this hall of fame hack job in the cold air return vent. I need some ideas on what to do with this wiring. 
The range opening is nearly centered to the opening of the cold air return on the opposite side of the wall and the logical option would be to relocate the range. However this was an unexpected find and even the general inspection didn't spot it. Relocating the range is only going to be doable with an entire kitchen reno. 
All I can come up with is to tell the client to buy a cook top + built in oven. I could surface mount the range plug and run conduit to it but I'm not sure if it will fly with the inspector or if the oven will slide back in tight.

So any thoughts or advice?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bring it up out of the floor and use a surface mount receptacle?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I think saying "I will try to fix this aboot as fast I can, eh" is a good place to start.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bring that cable up from a hole in the floor near the wall behind the range, terminate it into this:









Mount that sideway on the wall down low against the floor. There's room for it behind the drawer.

You cant expect the customer to change their kitchen layout due to a single outlet.


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> Bring it up out of the floor and use a surface mount receptacle?





HackWork said:


> Bring that cable up from a hole in the floor near the wall behind the range and into this:
> 
> View attachment 110681
> 
> ...


Reason I can't do this is because the entire length of the cold air return duct is directly beneath the range.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> Reason I can't do this is because the entire length of the cold air return duct is directly beneath the range.


You can get it in there. Disconnect the duct for access if you have to.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NDC said:


> Reason I can't do this is because the entire length of the cold air return duct is directly beneath the range.


Can you get it into a nearby cabinet and run liquid tite to the range from the side of the cabinet?


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

HackWork said:


> You can get it in there. Disconnect the duct for access if you have to.


I have to double check but i don't think we can install romex in return ducts here.


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> Can you get it into a nearby cabinet and run liquid tite to the range from the side of the cabinet?


This is what I'm thinking about doing. If I run the liquid tight or AC along the baseboard, will the rear leg of the range touch the conduit?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NDC said:


> I have to double check but i don't think we can install romex in return ducts here.


Not in the duct, around it. There's gotta be a way. Even if you come up behind the cabinet next door and use a piece of pipe in the corner to sleeve it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Jesus, put a couple 2x4's around it or some of that fake cardboard. Thus is not even something to worry about.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

NDC said:


> Reason I can't do this is because the entire length of the cold air return duct is directly beneath the range.


Install a piece of conduit to act as a protective sleeve right through the duct.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

NDC said:


> I have to double check but *i don't think we can install romex in return ducts here.*


Can't do that here either.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

NDC said:


> This is what I'm thinking about doing. If I run the liquid tight or AC along the baseboard, *will the rear leg of the range touch the conduit?*


Normally the two back edges of the stove prevent this type install. The stove will be stopped from sliding all the way back to the wall.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Tell me why you can't put it in the air return. If you want to be picky, use on of those NuTek 4 11/16 boxes with the foam gasket.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Tell me why you can't put it in the air return. If you want to be picky, use on of those NuTek 4 11/16 boxes with the foam gasket.


Combustibles can be in a return air duct or plenum, I think we have had this conversation before.

You need EMT to cross an air duct or teflon coated cables to be inside plenum spaces, been this way for a very long time.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

NDC said:


> Reason I can't do this is because the entire length of the cold air return duct is directly beneath the range.




Re route the wire under the floor then into the tombstone 


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Normally the two back edges of the stove prevent this type install. The stove will be stopped from sliding all the way back to the wall.


Maybe I'm picturing it wrong, but don't most ranges have an offset in the back to give room for the cord/plug?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Call to order ladles & gellyspoons.

This appears to be done "old work"...after drywall was installed.
The installer cheated cause the cold air chase was easy to use.

Go downstairs , visually track / follow / trace the NM cable until 
you see it disappear under the cold air return.

Remove the metal (or fake cardboard) being used to cover the
bay the NM cable is going into.

Pull the whole feeder out.(It does not look like the NM cable is 
strapped / secured to the 2x4 constructed wall from my view.

Sleeve it in 3/4 " greenfield until it clears the cold air return and
is out & away from it.

Pull it back up the same wall , keeping it in the greenfield.

Put a 3/4" greenfield connector on it and resecure to the existing 
4" square box.

Put the 4 prong 240 volt / 50 amp outlet receptacle & plate cover back on.

Plug it in & push the range back in place.

No kitchen remodel required


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Maybe I'm picturing it wrong, but don't most ranges have an offset in the back to give room for the cord/plug?


Yes, the back is recessed but the two edges about 1" wide on either side go all the way back to the wall then kick in on about a 45deg to inset the back.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Romex is run through cold air returns here all the time. I have put JB's, cans and Lotus Lights in cold air returns. What's the diff with a range receptacle?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

99cents said:


> Romex is run through cold air returns here all the time. I have put JB's, cans and Lotus Lights in cold air returns. What's the diff with a range receptacle?


I would be slap surprised if the Canadian codes (building, electrical, HVAC etc) didn't have a rule about some types of plastics in plenum spaces. Just because you've doing it for 100 years doesn't mean you've been doing it right:laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> I would be slap surprised if the Canadian codes (building, electrical, HVAC etc) didn't have a rule about some types of plastics in plenum spaces. Just because you've doing it for 100 years doesn't mean you've been doing it right:laughing:


An inspector may figure a licensed electrician would know better than violate such a code.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Did it yesterday. Sliced open the corrugated material, ran the romex through the return, taped it up with duct tape. Used the same holes the other romex was pulled through. I guarantee this will be green stickered.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys worry too much.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> Did it yesterday. Sliced open the corrugated material, ran the romex through the return, taped it up with duct tape. Used the same holes the other romex was pulled through. I guarantee this will be green stickered.


99...cannot do that under the NEC in the USA...
This is the whole point why there is "plentum rated"
and on commercial jobs (1) of the reasons everything is in 
steel in "plenum rated ceilings"..

Here is our code reference is found in Wiring Methods...

2014 NEC article *300.22(B)Ducts Specifically Fabricated for Environmental Air*


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## 350X (May 20, 2016)

If you can't get it from below, why not fish it out of the wall? 
Btw- is #10 large enough?


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

We can pass through a return. We cannot run along inside a return.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Anyone have a Canadian code reference that says no wiring in the cold air return?

Here is one that says it's ok. 12-010(5)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I liked NDC better with his black cat avatar.


Speaking of animals, I miss Next and his little monkey in the Winter coat.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

NDC said:


> This is in Ontario, Canada.
> I started a small kitchen refresh this week and found this hall of fame hack job in the cold air return vent. I need some ideas on what to do with this wiring.
> The range opening is nearly centered to the opening of the cold air return on the opposite side of the wall and the logical option would be to relocate the range. However this was an unexpected find and even the general inspection didn't spot it. Relocating the range is only going to be doable with an entire kitchen reno.
> All I can come up with is to tell the client to buy a cook top + built in oven. I could surface mount the range plug and run conduit to it but I'm not sure if it will fly with the inspector or if the oven will slide back in tight.
> ...


You're in Ontario, I'm in Ontario. I just wired a 3500 square foot custom house. Inspector didn't have a problem with light switches and what not mounted in the cold air return cavity. Is that existing? If So, why not just still the joist, and run the wire through, and leave it alone? If it's existing he can't give you a defect.

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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

NDC said:


> I have to double check but i don't think we can install romex in return ducts here.


Code rule please.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Replace it with Teck (mc cable here)?


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

The_Modifier said:


> Code rule please.


I figured a cold air return is just like a drop ceiling used as a return air plenum space and for that we need FT4 rated cables. Isn't romex ft-1 or ft-2 rated? Appendix B 2-130

Anyway the inspector says to just notch the stud, protect it and close it up as it's a building code issue. The clients wants it out regardless though so I will have to surface mount it.


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