# 400 amp service upgrade



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m hearing mixed info from my supplier about product regarding this upgrade. 

I have an underground rigid 4” going from a manhole on the street to the meter socket. Currently it’s 200Amp. We want to upgrade to 400 amp. 

They are telling me the meter socket has 2 separate 200a breakers and can be wired to 2 200a panels. 

So I’m thinking i need parallel feeders from the manhole which would need 2 raceways. 

Isn’t there a way to utilize the 4” rigid and pull in 500mcm to a bigger 400A meter socket disco ?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Anyone shed any light on this ? Is there a 400a disco meter combo available that I’m not seeing ?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Maybe someone is confusing a residential 400a service with commercial?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

There are 400A metermains available. Midwest makes one that I have used already. IIRC it comes with studs on the line side and your need to buy lugs for it so you can choose whatever configuration you like. It has 2 200A breakers in it with a 12 space feed through load center. The other option is a 320A meterbase and 2 200A disconnects, which is significantly less money but takes longer to put together.

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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

MS45508C | Surface - Metered | Service Entrance | Midwest Products | Ecatalog | Ecatalog







empower.abb.com





I think that is the one I have used. It's been a few years

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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Check with the utility what is required in your area. There are some areas that will allow the 320 amp to feed 2 -200 amp panels. I still do not see how it is justified. That would not fly around here. Anything larger than 300 amps needs a CT type of metering, residential or commercial. The largest self contained meter here is a 300 amp. If they allow you to use the 400 amp meter with 2 - 200 amp disconnects then you could parallel the existing 200 amp feeders, Just make sure the wires are the same type. 500 kcmls is quite heavy to pull. I am doing a 400 amp UG service now using parallel 4/0. It is a bit cheaper but more important, it is lighter and easier to handle especially when I have to bring it 15 feet up the pole. .


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Forge Boyz said:


> MS45508C | Surface - Metered | Service Entrance | Midwest Products | Ecatalog | Ecatalog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no by pass. Many Utilities require a bypass. But for 400 amps???


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> There is no by pass. Many Utilities require a bypass. But for 400 amps???


Oops. That was the wrong one. They do have a ringless with horn bypass.

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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> Check with the utility what is required in your area. There are some areas that will allow the 320 amp to feed 2 -200 amp panels. I still do not see how it is justified. That would not fly around here. Anything larger than 300 amps needs a CT type of metering, residential or commercial. The largest self contained meter here is a 300 amp. If they allow you to use the 400 amp meter with 2 - 200 amp disconnects then you could parallel the existing 200 amp feeders, Just make sure the wires are the same type. 500 kcmls is quite heavy to pull. I am doing a 400 amp UG service now using parallel 4/0. It is a bit cheaper but more important, it is lighter and easier to handle especially when I have to bring it 15 feet up the pole. .


If you are using parallel 4/0 AL for a 400A feed, why wouldn't you be comfortable with a 320A base? That wire size is only good for 360A so you still aren't giving them a 400. And a 320A base is rated continuous, so it matches up with a lot of 400A breakers. I have seen a 400A breaker trip while carrying about 320A of current (with fluctuations over that amount.)

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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Check with the utility what is required in your area. There are some areas that will allow the 320 amp to feed 2 -200 amp panels. I still do not see how it is justified. That would not fly around here. Anything larger than 300 amps needs a CT type of metering, residential or commercial. The largest self contained meter here is a 300 amp. If they allow you to use the 400 amp meter with 2 - 200 amp disconnects then you could parallel the existing 200 amp feeders, Just make sure the wires are the same type. 500 kcmls is quite heavy to pull. I am doing a 400 amp UG service now using parallel 4/0. It is a bit cheaper but more important, it is lighter and easier to handle especially when I have to bring it 15 feet up the pole. .


That’s the issue. Wouldn’t each 200A set need its own raceway? I have (1) 4” pipe going 150’ down a street. They are telling me the new meters also have a gutters separating each set of feeds.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Forge Boyz said:


> If you are using parallel 4/0 AL for a 400A feed, why wouldn't you be comfortable with a 320A base? That wire size is only good for 360A so you still aren't giving them a 400. And a 320A base is rated continuous, so it matches up with a lot of 400A breakers. I have seen a 400A breaker trip while carrying about 320A of current (with fluctuations over that amount.)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Here we would have to use parallel 350 kcml Aluminum. Parallel 4/0 is 360 amps × .80 = 288 amps. More than 3 current carrying conductors. Also the utility here only has a 300 amp meter. From a contractor meeting many years ago we were told if you sell a certain size service it better be rated for what you are selling. In this case a 320 amp meter pan with a 300 amp meter and a 300 amp feeder is not a 400 amp service.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Is it legal to run parallel feeders in 1 raceway ? 
I know they changed the meter sockets with (2) 200 amp discos to have a separation gutter within the enclosure.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Forge Boyz said:


> If you are using parallel 4/0 AL for a 400A feed, why wouldn't you be comfortable with a 320A base? That wire size is only good for 360A so you still aren't giving them a 400. And a 320A base is rated continuous, so it matches up with a lot of 400A breakers. I have seen a 400A breaker trip while carrying about 320A of current (with fluctuations over that amount.)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I received engineers specs today and it shows “400 amp service” and “320 amp Meter socket”.... 

The meter socket I received specs for today is a milbank 400 amp breaker (back ordered 8 weeks) 

I have no issue with (2) 200’s but I don’t think I can pull in same raceway. 


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

WronGun said:


> I received engineers specs today and it shows “400 amp service” and “320 amp Meter socket”....
> 
> The meter socket I received specs for today is a milbank 400 amp breaker (back ordered 8 weeks)
> 
> ...


Engineering specs from the utility or from the manufacturer?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> Engineering specs from the utility or from the manufacturer?


Engineer for this job. This is for a 6000 sq’ recording studio. They are asking for this service, then they are asking for a 200a technical power panel. 

This is the socket back ordered 8 weeks. 

My only issue is I have (1) 4” UG rigid pipe going down the street. From what I understand I need 1 pipe per feeder. Which is why I’m considering larger wire over (2) feeders.

I always include a note on these jobs that things can change depending on POCO requirements, I’m just trying to come up with a preliminary plan/budget at this point.










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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

From your description, it sounds like the 4" is for service conductors, not a feeder. You can pull parallel cables in the same pipe, but you just have to derate accordingly. I dont think it makes sense to run parallels in this case.

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

OK I may be confused but you're not talking about feeders really it's service lateral conductors from the service point in the manhole to the meter. 

You can't mix feeders and service conductors in the same conduit, or branch circuits and service conductors in the same conduit. 

You can run parallel sets in separate raceways / conduits if you follow the rules in 310.10(H)(3), but you aren't required to do so. 

You have plenty of room in the 4" conduit and you bought that tugger right, you could run a single set and give it a workout


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> OK I may be confused but you're not talking about feeders really it's service lateral conductors from the service point in the manhole to the meter.
> 
> You can't mix feeders and service conductors in the same conduit, or branch circuits and service conductors in the same conduit.
> 
> ...


Yes service conductors. Honestly I’ve never done a 400amp service. I’m trying to utilize the existing underground 4”. I thought if I pulled parallel sets they needed their own conduit. I guess I was wrong. 

Regardless I’m thinking about just pulling bigger 400A cable. 


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

400 amp wire is 500 kcmls which is quite heavy to handle and pull. If you go parallel you might be able to use what is there already as half of what is needed. Remember each phase leg has to be the same type of wire and length.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> 400 amp wire is 500 kcmls which is quite heavy to handle and pull. If you go parallel you might be able to use what is there already as half of what is needed. Remember each phase leg has to be the same type of wire and length.


It’s aluminum. They want copper. We will pull them out regardless. Either way I prefer smaller conductors. I think the new meter sockets have a divider for each set. Not sure how that will work. This is what the engineer at my supply house was saying.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Wait until you see the price of copper for that project !!!!!! Have a line in your proposal about cost increases?
Recording studios are really picky about clean power. Grounding, bonding, and shielding are extremely important. Running mc or emt?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> It’s aluminum. They want copper. We will pull them out regardless. Either way I prefer smaller conductors. I think the new meter sockets have a divider for each set. Not sure how that will work. This is what the engineer at my supply house was saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can easily pull 8 copper 250s in a 4".
I don't see a problem with that or one set of 500s.
This is a 400 amp switch we just installed to replace an existing one.
It's a mix of copper 500s and parallel 300s. 
Everyone has their own interpretation of how to move around 400 amps.








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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> Wait until you see the price of copper for that project !!!!!! Have a line in your proposal about cost increases?
> Recording studios are really picky about clean power. Grounding, bonding, and shielding are extremely important. Running mc or emt?


We just pulled one set of 600s that was 150' long. The wire for that pull was $7,300.
It was for 400 amps. The engineer was incompetent, it should have been 500s. They wouldn't fit on the generator lugs, we had to buy a set of pin adaptors (lollipops) for it.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

WronGun said:


> It’s aluminum. They want copper. We will pull them out regardless. Either way I prefer smaller conductors. I think the new meter sockets have a divider for each set. Not sure how that will work. This is what the engineer at my supply house was saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am in the process of a similar job. The customer is weighing the cost of copper vs Aluminum. Copper material cost is $48.00/ foot vs Aluminum at $22.00 / foot. Plus mark up and labor.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@WronGun - if they are specifying that they want copper not aluminum for the service conductors, I would run it by them before you parallel - if you want to go that route. 

Re-using the existing conductors would be nice, but by the time you pull them out, measure and match, etc., I bet it's better to just pull in one big set. 

What's the distance? Do you know how many bends in the 4"?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Wait until you see the price of copper for that project !!!!!! Have a line in your proposal about cost increases?
> Recording studios are really picky about clean power. Grounding, bonding, and shielding are extremely important. Running mc or emt?


Already got all material quoted. Wire alone $6500.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> @WronGun - if they are specifying that they want copper not aluminum for the service conductors, I would run it by them before you parallel - if you want to go that route.
> 
> Re-using the existing conductors would be nice, but by the time you pull them out, measure and match, etc., I bet it's better to just pull in one big set.
> 
> What's the distance? Do you know how many bends in the 4"?


Distance is roughly 125’ possibly 3 90’s. I’m debating on the pulling strategy. 

I did end up buying the full UT-10 Versi boom package with full attachment setup. 

Pulling up this pipe from a street vault. Notice the rigid coupling at grade. 











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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> Wait until you see the price of copper for that project !!!!!! Have a line in your proposal about cost increases?
> Recording studios are really picky about clean power. Grounding, bonding, and shielding are extremely important. Running mc or emt?


Yes we have technical power spec’d. I’ve been in this field consistently in my area. I usually try to push a massive Equitech setup on these jobs. Some just settle for standard isolation/unbalanced power. Amazingly this studio is pretty advanced and no balanced power on the spec. Just a couple a phase converters in Amp closets/control rooms 

All MC , standard and IG for TP circuits 

Only pipe work is for AV

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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> You can easily pull 8 copper 250s in a 4".
> I don't see a problem with that or one set of 500s.
> This is a 400 amp switch we just installed to replace an existing one.
> It's a mix of copper 500s and parallel 300s.
> ...


This is powering (2) 200 amp panels ?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WronGun said:


> This is powering (2) 200 amp panels ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No,
The load side feeds an emergency panelboard.
The parallel 300s are the emergency side that is shared in a gutter to feed this ATS and a 200 amp that eventually feeds the domestic water pumps.


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