# Neutral at the switchbox



## Jstanton27 (Jul 19, 2011)

Noticed the other day on the job that I'm on which is all done in pre-fabricated mc. All our rooms are cut deviced and made up but in our 3 way switches are dead ended. And recent code says that all switch boxes basically not done in pipe or flex has to have a neutral in the switchbox. No big deal just have to run a 12/2 up to the light the ole fashioned way lol and good. But I asked the jman why they made that rule and said in you want to dimmers? Or occupancy switch? Is that the only purpose is for future installation rather than a concept of safety?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes it's a design issue.

Is there a drop ceiling in that room? If so, then you are ok. See the exceptions.


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## electricdrummer (May 23, 2013)

from what i understand, it it for the purpose of future wiring, occupancy sensors, and the like that require a neutral. reminds me of this guy i knew who was too cheap to buy 14-3, so for dead-end 3 ways, he would just tape up the ground, and use is as an CCC. he couldn't understand when i tried explaining the importance of a proper ground, let alone putting power on a ground wire. all he said is that will be the next's guys problem. what a hack


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## Jstanton27 (Jul 19, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Yes it's a design issue.
> 
> Is there a drop ceiling in that room? If so, then you are ok. See the exceptions.


No drop ceiling just ur basic apartment with a hard lid


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jstanton27 said:


> No drop ceiling just ur basic apartment with a hard lid


Then each switch box needs a neutral.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Do you guys have dimmers that have neutrals on them? I haven't come across one.

Isn't the switch leg effectively a neutral? Is it because of the advancements in lighting, that the a switching device might not be able to use the load side as return (neutral), because of the electronic circuitry?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Do you guys have dimmers that have neutrals on them? I haven't come across one.
> 
> Isn't the switch leg effectively a neutral? Is it because of the advancements in lighting, that the a switching device might not be able to use the load side as return (neutral), because of the electronic circuitry?


Bonjour FS.,

As far for the dimmer which it required netural I know the Multi location units some of them required netural ditto with motion sensors.

The main key reason why we required netural at the switch boxes due the safety issue due the electronic controls used the ground ( earth ) for electronic control and it manged to get few RCD tripped out if you have large engough a load on ground conductor.

I know The USA finally got in the act couple years back but we doing that for almost 8 years now as far for Canada I have no clue on that part so I can't really comment that part.

Merci,
Marie et Marc


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I go by the interpretation that if there is accessible attic above, or basement/crawlspace below these switches, I don't need a neutral.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jstanton27 said:


> Noticed the other day on the job that I'm on which is all done in pre-fabricated mc. All our rooms are cut deviced and made up but in our 3 way switches are dead ended. And recent code says that all switch boxes basically not done in pipe or flex has to have a neutral in the switchbox. No big deal just have to run a 12/2 up to the light the ole fashioned way lol and good. But I asked the jman why they made that rule and said in you want to dimmers? Or occupancy switch? Is that the only purpose is for future installation rather than a concept of safety?


Here is the deal as far as I understand it.

Manufacturers were making and UL was listing devices such as occupancy sensors that used the equipment grounding conductor as a current carrying circuit conductor. 

The NFPA wanted that to stop, the manufacturers and UL were not willing to stop and the NFPA has no power to make them stop.

So an agreement was reached where the NFPA / NEC would require neutrals at switch boxes and devices would not be listed that used the EGC as a circuit conductor.

Not a perfect solution but it is not a perfect world.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I go by the interpretation that if there is accessible attic above, or basement/crawlspace below these switches, I don't need a neutral.


Doesn't it say that the wall has to be open on the same floor, meaning the basement or attic wouldn't could for the exception?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, *or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.*


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I go by the interpretation that if there is accessible attic above, or basement/crawlspace below these switches, I don't need a neutral.


I agree with that but be wary not every inspector will see it that way. IMO, install the neutral.

This is a clear case where the cmp has not thought this thru. Suppose a neutral for that circuit isn't really available or there is a block in the wall making access to the box difficult. IMO they should do away with that particular exception.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Jstanton27 said:


> All our rooms are cut deviced and made up but in our 3 way switches are dead ended.
> 
> No big deal just have to run a 12/2 up to the light the ole fashioned way lol and good.


Isn't that a violation?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree with that but be wary not every inspector will see it that way. IMO, install the neutral.
> 
> This is a clear case where the cmp has not thought this thru. Suppose a neutral for that circuit isn't really available or there is a block in the wall making access to the box difficult. IMO they should do away with that particular exception.


How about getting rid of that requirement all together.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> (2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
> loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
> open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, *or
> through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
> one side.*


The wall that you have to put the cable into isn't unfinished.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is a clear case where the cmp has not thought this thru. Suppose a neutral for that circuit isn't really available or there is a block in the wall making access to the box difficult. IMO they should do away with that particular exception.





Deep Cover said:


> How about getting rid of that requirement all together.


Given the reason that the rule was put in place perhaps the idea was to provide exceptions that made it as easy as possible to avoid.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> (2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
> loads enter the box through a *framing cavity that is
> open at the top or bottom on the same floor level*, *or
> through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
> one side.*


Is a drilled hole an "open framing cavity"?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Is a drilled hole an "open framing cavity"?


It does not need to be if you have an unfinished attic.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The wall that you have to put the cable into isn't unfinished.



Let's take a single story ranch style home with an unfinished basement and accessible attic...

Both the ceiling and the floor of the 1st floor (living space) are unfinished on one side, so according to the exception, exactly ZERO of the switch boxes will require neutrals.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> Let's take a single story ranch style home with an unfinished basement and accessible attic...
> 
> Both the ceiling and the floor of the 1st floor (living space) are unfinished on one side, so according to the exception, exactly ZERO of the switch boxes will require neutrals.


The switch box is in the wall cavity and that is usually not open to either the attic or basement unless it's balloon framed.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

You are missing the "*OR*" in the exception.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The switch box is in the wall cavity and that is usually not open to either the attic or basement unless it's balloon framed.






> or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.



Run the wire through the ceiling to attic which is on the other side of the ceiling and unfinished.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree with that but be wary not every inspector will see it that way. IMO, install the neutral.
> 
> This is a clear case where the cmp has not thought this thru. Suppose a neutral for that circuit isn't really available or there is a block in the wall making access to the box difficult. IMO they should do away with that particular exception.


To answer this directly, the inspector would have to show something stating the AHJ is ignoring the second half of exception #2. I don't know all the ins and outs of this rule as we are still on the '08, but I don't know how an inspector can overlook the exception.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

"through a *wall*, floor, or ceiling *that is unfinished on one side*."

The switchbox that needs to be accessible is in the wall and it's not unfinished on one side.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

So, by your theory, the switch would have to be installed in a ceiling or floor to use the second half of exception #2.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> So, by your theory, the switch would have to be installed in a ceiling or floor to use the second half of exception #2.


No. The main purpose of the second exception is when a wall is unfinished on one side such as in the case of a partially finished basement. 

Altho less likely, if the switch was in the ceiling or floor then it would need to have an unfinished side to comply with the exception as well.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, *or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

*Let's try this a different way. Let's split up the exception into two separate exceptions...

2(a)Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level.

2(b)Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> "through a *wall*, floor, or ceiling *that is unfinished on one side*."
> 
> The switchbox that needs to be accessible is in the wall and it's not unfinished on one side.



I told you there is alot of different interpretation on this. They way I read it is thru a wall, floor, or ceiling (meaning any of those areas) that are open on one side. The unfinished attic is open on one side of the ceiling.

Now if there is blocking in the wall then one of those areas would not work depending where the block is located.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I told you there is alot of different interpretation on this. They way I read it is thru a wall, floor, or ceiling (meaning any of those areas) that are open on one side. The unfinished attic is open on one side of the ceiling.
> 
> Now if there is blocking in the wall then one of those areas would not work depending where the block is located.



It seems pretty cut and dry to me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I told you there is alot of different interpretation on this. They way I read it is thru a wall, floor, or ceiling (meaning any of those areas) that are open on one side.


 But the wall isn't opened and you can't get to the switchbox at all without cutting the wall or drilling holes.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

So? It simply says "unfinished on one side". It says nothing about the switch box being accessible.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> It seems pretty cut and dry to me.


You quoted Dennis and the first thing he said was "_I told you there is alot of different interpretation on this._". That seems to be quite the opposite of "pretty cut and dry".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> So? It simply says "unfinished on one side".


The wall with the switchbox is not unfinished on one side.



> It says nothing about the switch box being accessible.


 No one said it did...


But what do you think the intention of the code is?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I see the little caveat I believe you are pointing out....

You are saying that if you come off a receptacle in the same wall as the switch, you would have to include the neutral assuming the back side was also finished.

I am saying that if you enter the stud cavity from an unfinished attic or basement, you don't have to include the neutral.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The wall with the switchbox is not unfinished on one side.


It does not have to be, I am going through the ceiling that is unfinished on one side. 

The intent is that if you can fish it in later you don't have to provide it now.

As far as there be being blocking in the wall well that is a good point but not addresses in the exceptions. 

If I was on my PC I would go look at the ROPs but I am not so I won't.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I see the little caveat I believe you are pointing out....
> 
> You are saying that if you come off a receptacle in the same wall as the switch, you would have to include the neutral assuming the back side was also finished.
> 
> I am saying that if you enter the stud cavity from an unfinished attic or basement, you don't have to include the neutral.


No, I am simply saying that the exception won't allow you to not install a neutral in a switchbox that is located in a wall unless said *wall* has an unfinished side.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Then I say you are dead wrong and choosing to not read the exception correctly.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> No, I am simply saying that the exception won't allow you to not install a neutral in a switchbox that is located in a wall unless said *wall* has an unfinished side.


And you are mistaken, you are ignoring another or.



> or through a wall, floor, *or* ceiling that is unfinished on one side.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> Then I say you are dead wrong and choosing to not read the exception correctly.


If so, it's definitely not the first time.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And you are mistaken, you are ignoring another or.


As DeepCover put it:

"2(b)Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side."

The cable entering the box does so thru the wall, which now excludes the ceiling and floor from consideration.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

HackWork said:


> No, I am simply saying that the exception won't allow you to not install a neutral in a switchbox that is located in a wall unless said *wall* has an unfinished side.


You are certainly welcome to your interpretation but no inspector I have talked to about this code requirement shares your opinion. 

If you wish to install a neutral at *every* switch you are, IMHO, exceeding the requirements of the NEC.

Pete


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

HackWork said:


> As DeepCover put it:
> 
> "2(b)Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
> loads enter the box through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side."
> ...


What if I bring a switch loop from a ceiling fixture thru the top plate, into the same stud cavity in which the switch box is located?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> What if I bring a switch loop from a ceiling fixture thru the top plate, into the same stud cavity in which the switch box is located?


Is that wall unfinished on one side? No? Needs a neutral.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The cable entering the box does so thru the wall, which now excludes the ceiling and floor from consideration.


I see what you are getting at but you are mistaken.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I see what you are getting at but you are mistaken.


Alright, I'll except that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

FWIW I used to think about this as Hax does but after further reading I wasn't convinced I was right. I still would not say that Hax is wrong but it is not the way most are looking at it. I would prefer it to be as Hax sees it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Alright, I'll except that.


I will try to remember to look at the ROP.

But I am all but certain the basic idea is that if you can get a cable in later without damaging the building finish you are good to go.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I will try to remember to look at the ROP.
> 
> But I am all but certain the basic idea is that if you can get a cable in later without damaging the building finish you are good to go.


I did not see anything in the rop's that I have that can help. Maybe you have something better.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I did not see anything in the rop's that I have that can help. Maybe you have something better.


Thanks I doubt I will have anything more than you have.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> If I was on my PC I would go look at the ROPs but I am not so I won't.



I am, so I did :thumbsup:

Numerous proposals to delete the section [ 404.2(C) ] in it's entirety were rejected.

4-ways being '"exempt" was accepted in principle, as was UC lighting and closet lights that have a jamb switch


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