# switch/outlet box makeup,,,fold or roll wires?



## rockironwebb (Nov 5, 2012)

Pretty simple really. I believe when making up any device box,,it is most efficient to "fold" wires into a box. 2 bends in the wire, if looking at the profile of the wires connecting to the device it would form an "N",,, A less experienced guy I work withs swears that the way he "rolls" his wires into the box is better. 2 "rolls" towards the box,,profile would be a big "O". The fold method IMO, is fast for rough in and fast for trim out,,I could install any device in 30 seconds or less being able to barely pull wires out,connect, and push into box using the already in place fold. The "roll" method, maybe fast on rough in, but sucks for trim out. Basically have to completely unroll wires, strip, connect, then fold for good fit into box. My co worker claims that his way is better for "troubleshooting" down the road because it leaves an extra inch of wire. I feel that planning for troubleshooting is not a very good method. We wire very large living structures,apartment complexes/hotel. When trim out comes,,,someone will be told,,,go install these 5000 outlets. Faster is better. Also having been the one to install the 5000 outlets,,efficiency keeps moral up. Any thoughts?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I fold mine. I was taught to roll them. I don't get to picky as long as the finished product works well, and you can do it in a timely manner. Everyone has their own way.


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## Chris Simms (Oct 23, 2007)

I go ahead and strip em out so I only have devices to set out at Set Out:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I fold, but don't much care how anyone does it. Whatever works.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Chris Simms said:


> I go ahead and strip em out so I only have devices to set out at Set Out:thumbsup:


Guess you've never worked around painters.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Micromanage much?


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## Chris Simms (Oct 23, 2007)

Never had to worry about the painters... boxes wind up full of sheet rock mud:laughing:


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Chris Simms said:


> Never had to worry about the painters... boxes wind up full of sheet rock mud:laughing:


I was trimming out a condo one time and thought my 2-gang switch for a bedroom got covered by the rockers. I grab a 2' level and can not find a hump anywhere. Turns out the entire box was filled with mud, then sanded, textured and painted. I got it chiseled out and the drywaller had to come back.:whistling2:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

rockironwebb said:


> Pretty simple really. I believe when making up any device box,,it is most efficient to "fold" wires into a box. 2 bends in the wire, if looking at the profile of the wires connecting to the device it would form an "N",,, A less experienced guy I work withs swears that the way he "rolls" his wires into the box is better. 2 "rolls" towards the box,,profile would be a big "O". The fold method IMO, is fast for rough in and fast for trim out,,I could install any device in 30 seconds or less being able to barely pull wires out,connect, and push into box using the already in place fold. The "roll" method, maybe fast on rough in, but sucks for trim out. Basically have to completely unroll wires, strip, connect, then fold for good fit into box. My co worker claims that his way is better for "troubleshooting" down the road because it leaves an extra inch of wire. I feel that planning for troubleshooting is not a very good method. We wire very large living structures,apartment complexes/hotel. When trim out comes,,,someone will be told,,,go install these 5000 outlets. Faster is better. Also having been the one to install the 5000 outlets,,efficiency keeps moral up. Any thoughts?


 
I like the N method done , with the wirenuts & splices facing up in the back of the box, and the 'pigtails' more to the front of the box

~CS~


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

The part of that that gets me is when the rockers cut the mudring holes too big, then the mudder muds them too much, and when breaking out the mud or tightening the devices the mud breaks, then its your fault.:no:


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## rockironwebb (Nov 5, 2012)

wouldn't say micromanage, just trying to be helpful. In the past, when I have to install 5000 of anything, I just want to get it done so I can move on to something new. Doubling the time it takes sucks. If I see someone digging a ditch with a spoon, I offer a shovel.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

indeed mass production and efficacy _are so_ Rock

everything counts....every move counts

as silly as it seems, i've been privy to industrial engineers from corporate HQ's at a McD's drivethrough. Every step, every bodily movement is calculated in their layout, right on down to minutia one would normally consider extranious

yet multiply all that across a _national_ chain ......

~CS~


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## rockironwebb (Nov 5, 2012)

I like efficiency. Our last job (160 unit apartment complex) was started by a different "electrical" company,,they got the ax, and we took over. We spent weeks fixing stuff in 2 of the 5 buildings. general attitude of me and my co-workers after that was horrible,, I love this line of work,,,even when things are crappy,,,but extended periods of crappyness are the worst when I know it could have been avoided.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Guess you've never worked around painters.


And sheetrockers.


I fold, but whatever floats your boat.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mbednarik said:


> I was trimming out a condo one time and thought my 2-gang switch for a bedroom got covered by the rockers. I grab a 2' level and can not find a hump anywhere. Turns out the entire box was filled with mud, then sanded, textured and painted. I got it chiseled out and the drywaller had to come back.:whistling2:



That's why I paint the floors.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I roll the wires into the box.. folding IMO gives you kinks you have to straghten out..

This is another topic that has no clear cut winner unless we had boxes set up side by side and a "committee" to judge which way was best...


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Folding works better to me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> .. folding IMO gives you kinks you have to straghten out...


That means you're doing it wrong.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Worked with a guy several years back that would wrap the hot wire, switch wire and ground together all the way to the end.
That was the dumbest thing I had seen.


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

I fold and paint floor also, receptacle symbol for outlets and S for switches so I have some idea what height to start swinging the hammer to find the burried box!!


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

When I worked construction back in the day, they marked the floor with all the receptacles, switches and overhead ceiling boxes.
It was not to locate them, it was to show the conduit bender where to take the conduits.
They used arrows for direction.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here's how I roll(bend) no pun intended.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

In the 70's, I learned to roll them (wires :whistling2. 


I've never seen an advantage in folding them.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

With romex I roll them on rough in and fold them on trim out. With conduit, I fold them both times.


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## rockironwebb (Nov 5, 2012)

I guess I didn't mention that IMO the fold method also helps to keep wires safe from those hurry up, who cares about electrical boxes, paid by the board, sheetrock installers.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

I fold, was taught that way and always have


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

File under: makes no difference


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> That's why I paint the floors.


What if you get in after they carpet?:laughing::laughing:


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm a folder. It's how I was taught. I don't have any photos of receptacle boxes but here's a J box I did.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Fold


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Chris Simms said:


> Never had to worry about the painters... boxes wind up full of sheet rock mud:laughing:


Here for a while inspectors were on a kick at final time to actually look for painted over wires especially bare grounds. 
I don't pre-strip for devices in the rough unless its an unfinished area. but most painters spray the primer every where too. I also fold or roll depending on mood but I also try to tuck into the back part of the box when I can a the rockers can be a bit overzelous with routers sometime. I have been doing it for years this way and haven't had really any cut or nicked wires. 
As far as the OP talking about grounds twisted around wires in the boxes I do sometimes in multi-gang boxes, it's an easy for me to keep track of what's what at trim-out (I am not as young as I used to be and I have (2) small brain sucking children at home LOL).


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

BIGRED said:


> Fold


I see you go old school too with the single pole switches also, I see the striped out switch leg. 
I have helpers look at me weird until I show them how to save a pigtail.
:thumbsup:


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Damn it didn't put in your picture.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> I see you go old school too with the single pole switches also, I see the striped out switch leg.
> I have helpers look at me weird until I show them how to save a pigtail.
> :thumbsup:


How do you save a pigtail and why?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

backstay said:


> View attachment 18909
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You did all that work and left the hooks off... WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Roll, fold. Don't care. Get the device in there somehow, just make sure it will look nice when trimmed out.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> I'm a folder. It's how I was taught. I don't have any photos of receptacle boxes but here's a J box I did.


I would of used the top of the box to bring all the cables in... much easier to either fold or roll them into the box... IMO....


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

B4T said:


> I would of used the top of the box to bring all the cables in... much easier to either fold or roll them into the box... IMO....


The day I take advice from you is the day I officially give up. Sorry to be cruel, it's just IMO. 

Personally, I don't like them coming in all on one side, unless its two. It makes lock nuts harder to put on/remove, and if you're using double barrel connectors, it's darn near impossible (and a nightmare to tighten the set screw). I like space between them.. Once again, just my opinion.


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## Cat5Installer (Jul 19, 2009)

On trim out I fold power and roll data.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> The day I take advice from you is the day I officially give up. Sorry to be cruel, it's just IMO.
> 
> Personally, I don't like them coming in all on one side, unless its two. It makes lock nuts harder to put on/remove, and if you're using double barrel connectors, it's darn near impossible (and a nightmare to tighten the set screw). I like space between them.. Once again, just my opinion.


You use the two outer KO's and leave the middle..... I do it all the time... but you have your mind made up...


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

You got to know when to roll 'em,
know when to fold 'em,
know when to walk away, 
and know when to run.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

B4T said:


> You did all that work and left the hooks off... WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY


Maybe the devices don't need a hook.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> The day I take advice from you is the day I officially give up. Sorry to be cruel, it's just IMO.
> 
> Personally, I don't like them coming in all on one side, UNLESS ITS TWO. It makes lock nuts harder to put on/remove, and if you're using double barrel connectors, it's darn near impossible (and a nightmare to tighten the set screw). I like space between them.. Once again, just my opinion.



My bad, B4T. I forgot... Your way is the only way... ::bows:: I am not worthy...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> My bad, B4T. I forgot... Your way is the only way... ::bows:: I am not worthy...


You are a waste of keystrokes... just another loud mouth who has nothing good to say...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

i like neat, i like a common nomenclature as well, the ability to revisit a device and/or JB, and know exactly what went on, which is the feed, the common, etc .....

especially when i can't remember what i had for lunch by 3pm.....

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

rockironwebb said:


> Pretty simple really. I believe when making up any device box,,it is most efficient to "fold" wires into a box. 2 bends in the wire, if looking at the profile of the wires connecting to the device it would form an "N",,, A less experienced guy I work withs swears that the way he "rolls" his wires into the box is better. 2 "rolls" towards the box,,profile would be a big "O". The fold method IMO, is fast for rough in and fast for trim out,,I could install any device in 30 seconds or less being able to barely pull wires out,connect, and push into box using the already in place fold. The "roll" method, maybe fast on rough in, but sucks for trim out. Basically have to completely unroll wires, strip, connect, then fold for good fit into box. My co worker claims that his way is better for "troubleshooting" down the road because it leaves an extra inch of wire. I feel that planning for troubleshooting is not a very good method. We wire very large living structures,apartment complexes/hotel. When trim out comes,,,someone will be told,,,go install these 5000 outlets. Faster is better. Also having been the one to install the 5000 outlets,,efficiency keeps moral up. Any thoughts?


Any thoughts? 

Yeah, you think too much, jamb the damn wires in the box and move on.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

No photos, let us see if I can describe my method for low voltage cabling. Let's use fire alarm for example. If it is not piped or spray foamed, I open two holes in the box across from each other top and bottom and just run the wires straight through from top to bottom. The wires are flat against the back of the box. The insulation doesn't hurt the cable. No sheet rocker can Rotozip them because their bit won't reach that far. I can leave whatever length of wires I need straight down the wall out of harm's way. The mud can fill the box and be removed without damaging the wires. There are no folds or bends to work out. The painters only paint 3 inches of the cable so I can decipher the colors without scraping them. I have never had my cabling hurt using this method.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> No photos, let us see if I can describe my method for low voltage cabling. Let's use fire alarm for example. If it is not piped or spray foamed, I open two holes in the box across from each other top and bottom and just run the wires straight through from top to bottom. The wires are flat against the back of the box. The insulation doesn't hurt the cable. No sheet rocker can Rotozip them because their bit won't reach that far. I can leave whatever length of wires I need straight down the wall out of harm's way. The mud can fill the box and be removed without damaging the wires. There are no folds or bends to work out. The painters only paint 3 inches of the cable so I can decipher the colors without scraping them. I have never had my cabling hurt using this method.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Yep, that's it.


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## etb (Sep 8, 2010)

....


347sparky said:


> You got to know when to roll 'em,
> 
> *data & coax*
> 
> ...


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Most case I useally fold as well. It is common pratice over here ( In France ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## rockironwebb (Nov 5, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Any thoughts?
> 
> Yeah, you think too much, jamb the damn wires in the box and move on.


Yeah, you're right, I think to much. I'll probably just jamb my wires in from now on,,not even tie grounds/neutrals together,,that would be easiest for me. Who cares about the guy that comes after to trim out. I'll do the same the next time I do underground work. Just get the damn pipe underground and move on, why should the little details like measurements matter.


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