# new wireing NEC?



## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

this is the floor plan


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

Okay, when did you hire my 7 year old to draw your electrical schematic?


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

Kevin J said:


> Okay, when did you hire my 7 year old to draw your electrical schematic?


 haha sorry i know its kind of sloppy but i did it really quick to be able to get it up here


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wow, man, this is like the '60s..... Déjà vu all over again.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

theres a new program, called CAD!!!


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

i love the $witches :thumbsup:


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## lectro88 (Jul 13, 2009)

You got dollars growing on the walls!


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

dont quit your day job!


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

haha yeah, but did I forget anything defined by the NEC
I got the bathroom branch
2 small appliance branches
AFCI protection in all bedrooms and similiar


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

Silly people, that just shows the switches will be dimmers, and we all know they cost $.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobward said:


> haha yeah, but did I forget anything defined by the NEC
> I got the bathroom branch
> 2 small appliance branches
> AFCI protection in all bedrooms and similiar


And that it's a third-floor apartment.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And that it's a third-floor apartment.


 correct its the 3rd apartment in a 3 family house


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobward said:


> correct its the 3rd apartment in a 3 family house


 
One of three apartments, or an apartment on the third floor?


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> One of three apartments, or an apartment on the third floor?


 well both. its the third apartment and it happens to be on the third floor


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

so i am assuming that everything is up to code... granted that all the spaing is correct and thet everything is secured properly


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## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes, go on assuming.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

I might call the area you have marked "living room" a dining room since it seems to blend in with the kitchen area.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

Kevin J said:


> Yes, go on assuming.


 do you see anything wrong with it; something that should make me not assume that it is done by code?


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

oldschool said:


> I might call the area you have marked "living room" a dining room since it seems to blend in with the kitchen area.


 hmmg, in that case i can use the small appliance line for the outlets, correct?


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

oh, i just saw that all ckts were 20 amp so it dosent really matter


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

bobward said:


> 220 line running to outside for Air Conditioning unit


Hmmm...that's a problem right there. I'd get that upgraded to a 240 volt line as soon as possible.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobward said:


> hmmg, in that case i can use the small appliance line for the outlets, correct?


What does 210.11(C)(1) say?


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

Bob, this is a site for professional electricians to discuss their trade, not have work taken away from them by dodgy landlords. If you want to pay someone here for their time, you're welcome to, otherwise, take it to one of the multitude of DIY sites on the web.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

bobward said:


> ...
> AFCI protection in all bedrooms and similiar


:blink:

What year is that under in NJ???


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What does 210.11(C)(1) say?


Well, sparky. 210.11(C)(1) states. In addition to the number of branh iruits required by other parts of this setion, two or more 20 amp small - appliane branh iruits shall be provided for all recptical outlets speified by 210.52(B). 
As for 210.52(B) It states In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similiar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20 amp small appliane branch iruits required by 210.11(C)1 shall serve all wall and floor receptical outlets overed by 210.52(A), all counter-top outlets overed by 210.52(), and receptical outlets for refridgeration equipment.
Is that good enough for you sparky?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobward said:


> Well, sparky. 210.11(C)(1) states. In addition to the number of branh iruits required by other parts of this setion, two or more 20 amp small - appliane branh iruits shall be provided for all recptical outlets speified by 210.52(B).
> As for 210.52(B) It states In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similiar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20 amp small appliane branch iruits required by 210.11(C)1 shall serve all wall and floor receptical outlets overed by 210.52(A), all counter-top outlets overed by 210.52(), and receptical outlets for refridgeration equipment.
> Is that good enough for you sparky?


Uh, it was a rhetorical question about whether you understand what 210.11(C)(1) means.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> What year is that under in NJ???


Are you refering to what year of the code that is? If you are, it has been updated in the 2008 edition of the NEC that all bedrooms and similiar areas be AFCI protected. 
it can be found under 210.12 (B).


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

I would like to say thank you to the people that actually tried to assist me, namely "Oldshool".


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Uh, it was a rhetorical question about whether you understand what 210.11(C)(1) means.


 Thank you sparky, your more then halarious.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

bobward said:


> Are you refering to what year of the code that is? If you are, it has been updated in the 2008 edition of the NEC that all bedrooms and similiar areas be AFCI protected.
> it can be found under 210.12 (B).


Your take on the 210.12(B) confuses me..."all bedrooms and similar areas be AFCI protected" is nowhere even remotely close to the actual language:



2008 NEC said:


> ...family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas...


A bedroom is in no way similar in nature to family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, or hallways.

If the lighting for the kitchen is run on a separate circuit from anything else in the house...is it required to be GFI'ed...AFI'ed...nothing but protected with a properly sized OCPD?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

bobward said:


> can someone tell me if everything of the folloing is up the NEC:
> This is a thrid floor apartment
> Let me know what you guys think of this And if you see and code blunders
> BR 1] (AFCI protected)
> ...



 

Ok, So whats the real question?
'Jersey does'nt observe AFCI do they?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

leland said:


> [/color]
> 
> Ok, So whats the real question?
> 'Jersey does'nt observe AFCI do they?


That all depends :001_huh:

The OP can opt to have the job permitted under the '05 where AFCI was "optional". 
This is due to the amendments NJ accepted to the '05 and the new "grace period":



> *Grace period for previously adopted electrical code*
> 
> On April 6, 2009, the State of NJ has adopted the National Electrical Code/2008 as the electrical subcode. As per N.J.A.C. 5:23-1.6, Grace period, for a period of six months following the operative date of a subcode revision, applicants may submit a complete permit application, including all prior approvals, to be reviewed under the code in force immediately preceding the subcode revision.
> 
> ...


'05 Amendments: http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20051107nj.cfm
Grace period:http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/misc/pdf/gp_prev_elect_c.pdf


or...
The OP can just wire it to 210.12(B) [et al] under the '08..as NJ has accepted 210.12(B) as it was written for the '08.
'08 Amendments: http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20090323nj.cfm

So the answer is:
I dunno :laughing:


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Your take on the 210.12(B) confuses me..."all bedrooms and similar areas be AFCI protected" is nowhere even remotely close to the actual language:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 oh i didnt feel like writing out all the other areas, so i just said similiar.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

bobward said:


> oh i didnt feel like writing out all the other areas, so i just said similiar.


After all the time and effort spent on the napkin?

I'm a bit disappointed to be honest with you.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

Celtic said:


> After all the time and effort spent on the napkin?
> 
> I'm a bit disappointed to be honest with you.


 what does that mean?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Celtic said:


> After all the time and effort spent on the napkin?
> 
> I'm a bit disappointed to be honest with you.




LMAO!!!! He did better than I could!!!!

I wish Mass. could have an 'Option'. 
'08 state wide as of 12:01 1/1/2008 (some amendments).Every single cycle.What a pain.But,consistent.

So,what is the real question? 
You seem well versed to the code,but very basic inquiries.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

leland said:


> LMAO!!!! He did better than I could!!!!
> 
> I wish Mass. could have an 'Option'.
> '08 state wide as of 12:01 1/1/2008 (some amendments).Every single cycle.What a pain.But,consistent.
> ...


ok the real question is, for the kitchen counter tops should the both small appliance branches be there? as of right now i just want to put one small branch on the refridge and then to two pantry outlets. but im not sure if the two small appliance branches need to be present and least on one outlet (each)on the counter top. Now i can always just go with 3 wire and do the kitchen and pantry like that. or i can do the pantry, refridge, and one outlet on the countertop on one small appliance, and the rest on the other. or can i just do it as i have it now, refridge, and pantry on one small appliance and the rest of the kitchen on the other small appliance... the pantry will have a the same counter as the kitchen so it might even pass at part of the kitchen.. i just find that part of the code a little confusing and want to see your take... also the general purpose of this post was to see if i missed anything, and from a different forum someone pointed out that i over looked the wall accross from the pantry... that needs at least 1 outlet.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

"for the kitchen counter tops should the both small appliance branches be there?"

I won't do your home work: But 2008 or 2005 (210.52) it's in there. YES.


"Now i can always just go with 3 wire and do the kitchen and pantry like that."

That spells hack. (my opinion, I may be attacked)

All the rest, same article.

Why are you trying to make 2 ckts go so far? 2 SABC required,the others are a bonus.
Besides,The 1st time the customer turns on the coffee pot and the toaster....... Your a dip shi*yt.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

There's probably been two or three threads of a DIY nature closed since this one began, and I'm curious how it has managed to stay open. It is clearly a DIY, as this same question, and same name, appeared on a DIY site right after this one. I guess quoting some code has managed to stave off the inevitable for just a while longer...


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## chenley (Feb 20, 2007)

May be a box fill issue where the homerun goes to the receptacle box in the bedroom. If it's a standard nail-on 1-gang with three 12/2's going in I'm pretty sure it's overfilled. May switch it to a 2-gang to be on the safe side.


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

leland;110501
[COLOR=sandybrown said:


> That spells hack. (my opinion, I may be attacked)[/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobward said:


> what do you mean by "spells hack"


What he is very politely trying to say is we're starting to get the impression you're not an electrician.

And if you are, it's painfully obvious you're just starting out. So you post this thread and you're wanting us to design, plan, layout and plan-check your work for you.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> What he is very politely trying to say is we're starting to get the impression you're not an electrician.
> 
> And if you are, it's painfully obvious you're just starting out. So you post this thread and you're wanting us to design, plan, layout and plan-check your work for you.


According to his profile he is an “electri” maybe an “electri” is a new category of electrician that hasn’t finish training. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> According to his profile he is an “electri” maybe an “electri” is a new category of electrician that hasn’t finish training. :jester:


So instead of being a Sparky, he's just a Flint. :laughing:


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## bobward (Aug 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What he is very politely trying to say is we're starting to get the impression you're not an electrician.
> 
> And if you are, it's painfully obvious you're just starting out. So you post this thread and you're wanting us to design, plan, layout and plan-check your work for you.


He was referrring to the very common method of useing the 3 wire to utilize the two small circuits... there is nothing wrong with that... how is that a hack?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> There's probably been two or three threads of a DIY nature closed since this one began, and I'm curious how it has managed to stay open. It is clearly a DIY, as this same question, and same name, appeared on a DIY site right after this one. I guess quoting some code has managed to stave off the inevitable for just a while longer...



It's one of those questions that no one really knows the answer to....but I find the whole thing to be quite humorous :jester: 

My head would probably explode if I ventured in the world of DIY chatroom.:laughing:


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## j dave (Sep 4, 2009)

*Smoke Alarms*

I don't see or you didn't mention any smoke detectors??


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

I believe the two small appliance branch circuits must serve the counter top receptacles. They are allowed to serve other areas but they must serve the countertop.


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## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

Bob, are you an electrician? I don't mean to be rude but we here on this site do this for a living. If you are not an electrician you should hire one. You can not rightfully expect us to give you our knowledge. I can not say it vehemently enough THIS IS HOW WE MAKE OUR LIVING. It would be irresponsible for someone on this site to stamp your napkin as accurate and up to code, as it is not. I don't mean any disrespect but feel very strongly that you need to hire someone.


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

Aren't you suppose to have a hard wire smoke detector circuit.

And are you suppose to have hard wire C.O. detector.

I would talk to the local fire dept. or local or state code enforcement
officer, about the smokes and C.O. that you'll need in the third floor
apartment.

And smoke and C.O. with most likely be on AFCI circuit breaker.


We here to help. :thumbsup:

Keep asking any question that crosses your mind.

Go back and re-drawn you wiring lay out. So there be no more :laughing: :laughing:


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> Bob, are you an electrician? I don't mean to be rude but we here on this site do this for a living. If you are not an electrician you should hire one. You can not rightfully expect us to give you our knowledge. I can not say it vehemently enough THIS IS HOW WE MAKE OUR LIVING. It would be irresponsible for someone on this site to stamp your napkin as accurate and up to code, as it is not. I don't mean any disrespect but feel very strongly that you need to hire someone.


I feel the same way. These are pretty basic questions your asking unless you have done controls or industrial work your whole career. I would suggest reading your code book some more and you will find your answers, check your local codes and jurisdiction see what the requirements are. I mean if I needed some plumbing done in my house, I would call a plumber, I know what my limits are, it seems you are past yours.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

I imagine it's been left open because everyone likes to watch a good beating every now and then.

I've just got to print this out and show it to the inspectors next week, they probably will crack a rib laughing at it, I know I did. 

Can you imagine receiving this sketch to bid on? :laughing:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

................


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

Does someone out there remember there Morse code? :laughing:

gilbequick, in my opinion, I think this thread is dead. :jester:


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> ................



555 or SSSSS in morse code

See, this thread still has life.

Though not anymore.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi.
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Bye!


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