# What the hell is going on here? (troubleshooting help)



## boyelectric (Nov 11, 2011)

So a friend of mine called me to help him out on a house he is flipping. He said that when installing a switch in his kitchen the neutral hit a hot wire and now he has no power. So I went over to look at it wen to the breaker, it is still on. I checked if it was faulty and it isnt (120v to ground). I am out of ideas I'm going back tuesday to take another crack at it. Any suggestions on what to do/check. 

By the way it is Aluminum wire.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

boyelectric said:


> So a friend of mine called me to help him out on a house he is flipping. He said that when installing a switch in his kitchen the neutral hit a hot wire and now he has no power. So I went over to look at it wen to the breaker, it is still on. I checked if it was faulty and it isnt (120v to ground). I am out of ideas I'm going back tuesday to take another crack at it. Any suggestions on what to do/check.
> 
> By the way it is Aluminum wire.


Rule #1. Dont ever check a breaker to neutral. Check it to another breaker on a different phase. AND, use a wiggy...:thumbsup:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Share some wisdom. Why?


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## boyelectric (Nov 11, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Share some wisdom. Why?


Please do


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Rule #1. Dont ever check a breaker to neutral. Check it to another breaker on a different phase. AND, use a wiggy...:thumbsup:


Guess since I don't own a wiggy I can't ever check a circuit??

Never heard of troubleshooting this way...


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

boyelectric said:


> So a friend of mine called me to help him out on a house he is flipping. He said that when installing a switch in his kitchen the neutral hit a hot wire and now he has no power. So I went over to look at it wen to the breaker, it is still on. I checked if it was faulty and it isnt (120v to ground). I am out of ideas I'm going back tuesday to take another crack at it. Any suggestions on what to do/check.
> 
> By the way it is Aluminum wire.


 
Where else did you check for voltage? Switch? Light?


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## boyelectric (Nov 11, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> Where else did you check for voltage? Switch? Light?


I check the switch not the light


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

So the breaker has power, but the switch does not and now you are out of ideas? Seriously?

My first question to you would be...How do you know you have the right breaker if you can't verify it? Did you check all breakers?


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## boyelectric (Nov 11, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> So the breaker has power, but the switch does not and now you are out of ideas? Seriously?
> 
> My first question to you would be...How do you know you have the right breaker if you can't verify it? Did you check all breakers?


No I am not out of ideas I just want people to say anything to help spark an ideas I've tried much more than that but I just want any and all ideas also I'm on my phone and its a pain to type on


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

You may have a break in the wire- provided you have the right circuit. I have found on one occasion that the break in the aluminum was right at the panel- in the L16.

Other times it has been in the box where the aluminum was folded when tucking the device into the box.

Also check the joints in the light.

Although it will get frustrating at one point, you won't forget what you finally found- and please post it up- so we all learn.:thumbsup:


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Are you missing the hot or the neutral? Have you tried to determine where power is fed from? Can you trace the circuit from the panel? You are missing a bad splice, a broken wire, or bad connection somewhere in the circuit.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I could trouble shoot this in less than an hour


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I could trouble shoot this in less than an hour


I could troubleshoot that in less than 15 minutes. And that includes drive time.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Aluminum wire....could of burned thru anyplace....you will need an extension cord and your meter....I suspect you don't have a megger....identify circuit..and all devices....plug extension cord in as far down circuit as possible...now check continuity and chase to ground:thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> Guess since I don't own a wiggy I can't ever check a circuit??
> 
> Never heard of troubleshooting this way...


Im just saying that a solenoid tester, in my opinion, is best at troubleshooting residential and commercial breakers and fuses as it wont give as many ghost voltage readings.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

drspec said:


> I could troubleshoot that in less than 15 minutes. And that includes drive time.


Oh yeah I could talk my sister through it over the phone in seven!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

It would take me 4 hours if I used the megger


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

boyelectric said:


> So a friend of mine called me to help him out on a house he is flipping. He said that when installing a switch in his kitchen the neutral hit a hot wire and now he has no power. So I went over to look at it wen to the breaker, it is still on. I checked if it was faulty and it isnt (120v to ground). I am out of ideas I'm going back tuesday to take another crack at it. Any suggestions on what to do/check.
> 
> By the way it is Aluminum wire.


He has no power to where? Just that 1 light?. is it a switch loop? Did you check the light fixture? A blown bulb?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

FWIW....that place has aluminum wiring in it....there are special rules and methods to fix/and or repair it....hopefully most likely you burn thru is at a recpt .....anywhere the wire is bent....you are a apprentice?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

boyelectric said:


> So a friend of mine called me to help him out on a house he is flipping. He said that when installing a switch in his kitchen the neutral hit a hot wire and now he has no power. So I went over to look at it wen to the breaker, it is still on. I checked if it was faulty and it isnt (120v to ground). I am out of ideas I'm going back tuesday to take another crack at it. Any suggestions on what to do/check.
> 
> By the way it is Aluminum wire.


id start tearing open walls...its just not adding up


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I could trouble shoot this in less than an hour





drspec said:


> I could troubleshoot that in less than 15 minutes. And that includes drive time.


I can name that tune in .,...... wait, that's different game, sorry. :laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> id start tearing open walls...its just not adding up


Nothing less than a complete rewire, it's aluminum after all.


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## boyelectric (Nov 11, 2011)

RGH said:


> FWIW....that place has aluminum wiring in it....there are special rules and methods to fix/and or repair it....hopefully most likely you burn thru is at a recpt .....anywhere the wire is bent....you are a apprentice?


Yes 2nd year


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Nothing less than a complete rewire, it's aluminum after all.


You know, that really isn't a bad idea considering the way insurance companies are viewing the use of AL wiring now a days. I've been hearing more and more stories of prospective homeowners not being able to find someone to insure a property wired with AL.

Maybe "not a bad idea" isn't the correct wording. Maybe I should have said "that might be necessary in the future".


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

It is a flip. This guy is going to hack something in there. Anything to make it look nice and work.
If you are smart you will stay as far away from this thing as you can.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> It is a flip. This guy is going to hack something in there. Anything to make it look nice and work.
> If you are smart you will stay as far away from this thing as you can.


 Agreed. Between the flip, the aluminum wiring, and the lack of inexperience, this has "trouble" written all over it.

That being said, to answer an earlier question: You always test line-to-line because it eliminates the possibility that you are actually seeing voltage from a back-feed. If there is a L-L load connected, voltage from an opposing phase can feed through and energize the dead phase, so if you're measuring from L-L you're looking for the 0 volt reading between phases or legs.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I have been doing this chit a long time...30 years....and I hate messing with AL ....it was put in during the 70's so it 30-40 years old...usually brittle....1 wrong move and snap..XHIT!!!!!....don't walk away...........run:thumbsup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, I've never touched an old resi. aluminum repair, so I'd be gun shy about it. Honestly, I think the only product I would trust on it would be these things:








And I'd go nuts with the Noalox and torque screwdriver.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Big John said:


> Yeah, I've never touched an old resi. aluminum repair, so I'd be gun shy about it. Honestly, I think the only product I would trust on it would be these things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 yes and that torque screw driver isn't cheap either...:no:...for something ya don't use very often..


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Big John said:


> And I'd go nuts with the Noalox and torque screwdriver.





RGH said:


> yes and that torque screw driver isn't cheap either...:no:...for something ya don't use very often..


Suppose the panel label is missing or the info on a receptacle is unreadable, how would you know the torque settings?

Is there a table/list available for breakers or receptacle terminations that gives you the torque settings?

I have used a torque wrench on panels that had allen or square (Robertson) screws, but I don't own a torque screwdriver.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

no....lil'electric....torque on the aluminum repair kit ....John posted a pic of it.....for it to be a recognized repair it need certain torque setting..PITA...


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

The Sniffer would find the problem within minutes


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Where is the switch located? It it's located in one of 4 locations I've got an idea no one has mentioned.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

knowshorts said:


> Where is the switch located? It it's located in one of 4 locations I've got an idea no one has mentioned.


Tripped GFI? Yeah, I thought about that, but was trying to get him to relay what he has actually checked.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> Tripped GFI? Yeah, I thought about that, but was trying to get him to relay what he has actually checked.


Unless someone upgraded, it may not have a GFI. I think most people stopped using AL at the time GFI requirements made it into the code.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> Oh yeah I could talk my sister through it over the phone in seven!


My sister will hang up as soon as she hears my voice:laughing:


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbNidYYGjic


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> My sister will hang up as soon as she hears my voice:laughing:


Funny, she doesn't hang up when I call.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> My sister will hang up as soon as she hears my voice:laughing:





sbrn33 said:


> Funny, she doesn't hang up when I call.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

jrannis said:


> Rule #1. Dont ever check a breaker to neutral. Check it to another breaker on a different phase. AND, use a wiggy...:thumbsup:


just checking a breaker to neutral or ground will show voltage but you may be getting a false reading.
to properly check a breaker there are a number of ways to do it.
(1)checking hot lug between 2 breakers will tell you that the breakers are actually making contact. as you should read 220 volts if not one of them is bad..
(2) taking a voltage reading between the bus and the hot lug of the suspect breaker should read 0 with the breaker on If the breaker is good. (the same method as checking across a fuse)
if reading any voltage then the breaker may be faulty.
(3) continuity testing with breaker disconnected completely and removed from the panel continuity should be near 0 on a meter if breaker is good.
since you are dealing with aluminum conductors the problem could be anywhere in that line.
a megger is a good tool to have for testing the insulation but for finding a short its a matter of tracing the circuit and testing each section until you locate the faulty one.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Big John said:


> Yeah, I've never touched an old resi. aluminum repair, so I'd be gun shy about it. Honestly, I think the only product I would trust on it would be these things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice device 
I dont care for aluminum wire either (pain in the arse)


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

If you have 120 volts to ground, just twist the white and bare wires together. That will make it work:laughing:

In all seriousness however, if it'
s aluminum branch circuits you've most likely blown a weak splice and will have to open up all boxes to find fault. I would just refeed with new circuit and deaden off old feed in case it gets re energized.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Big John said:


> Yeah, I've never touched an old resi. aluminum repair, so I'd be gun shy about it. Honestly, I think the only product I would trust on it would be these things:
> 
> And I'd go nuts with the Noalox and torque screwdriver.


Alumiconns are what I use when doing any aluminum repairs. In the past couple of years I've used about 500 of them.
They work great but make for some tight device boxes.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> If you have 120 volts to ground, just twist the white and bare wires together. That will make it work:laughing:
> 
> In all seriousness however, if it'
> s aluminum branch circuits you've most likely blown a weak splice and will have to open up all boxes to find fault. I would just refeed with new circuit and deaden off old feed in case it gets re energized.


Or he could just use Clitoris's new sniffer.:thumbup:


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## LegacyofTroy (Feb 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I could trouble shoot this in less than an hour


That is because you just blurt crap out with no substantiation.


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