# Ceiling Fan on GFI Protected Circuit



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How does the fan work w/o a noodle?

Or, is it K&T, and the neutral from the fan doesn't go to the same point where the GFCI will be?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Why does the light need protection? Is it a steam shower with a proprietary light?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Why does the light need protection? Is it a steam shower with a proprietary light?


Either it's required by the instructions, or it's a local code.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think he means an egc not a neutral. Anyway the OP needs to re write this post as it is unclear.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Either it's required by the instructions, or it's a local code.


That's kind of what I was asking. I was wondering if it were actually required in the first place.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's kind of what I was asking. I was wondering if it were actually required in the first place.



Most AHJs around me require it, so I just default to it without ever checking.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Most AHJs around me require it, so I just default to it without ever checking.


Seriously? Is this a code in writing or just their own whim?


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> How does the fan work w/o a noodle?
> 
> Or, is it K&T, and the neutral from the fan doesn't go to the same point where the GFCI will be?


K&T = Knob and Tube?
The ceiling fan in the bedroom is down stream from the canned light in the shower. The ceiling fan has a neutral that I can access in a switch box. However, a GFI at this location will only protect the ceiling fan and I don't want to do this.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Seriously? Is this a code in writing or just their own whim?


Formally adopted. I'd say 60% of the AHJs around here have adopted it. So I find it easier to just run a can light over a shower or bath off the bath circuit than take the time to research whether a given city requires it or not.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

swimmer said:


> K&T = Knob and Tube?
> The ceiling fan in the bedroom is down stream from the canned light in the shower. The ceiling fan has a neutral that I can access in a switch box. However, a GFI at this location will only protect the ceiling fan and I don't want to do this.



I'm lost. Does the circuit come from the GFCI, or the can light? And where does 'a neutral' come from... is it the circuit neutral for the power you're using, or is it just any old neutral? If it's 'just any old neutral' and does not go back through the GFI, you'll have tipping issues.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> I need to GFI protect a recessed light fixture that is inside a shower.
> 
> There is no neutral in the house that is upstream from this fixture.
> 
> ...


swimmer;

I believe you are talking about the Equipment ground conductor ,Right?

As for the GFCI breaker it should not trip just because there is a motor load on a GFCI breaker those should only trip because of a ground fault.

What i would do is sell a new circuit to the HO instead of taping a K&T circuit.:thumbsup:


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think he means an egc not a neutral. Anyway the OP needs to re write this post as it is unclear.



I mean neutral. 

You guys are right. I don't see a requirement in the the NEC. I must have read or heard about it elsewhere. Probably manufacture's instructions as Sparky480 noted.

Anyway, I'll sleep better knowing my customer won't be taking an electric shower. 

Any thoughts on the original "GFI on a ceiling fan" question?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> K&T = Knob and Tube?



Yes.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

swimmer said:


> K&T = Knob and Tube?
> 
> 
> yes


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

swimmer said:


> I mean neutral.
> 
> You guys are right. I don't see a requirement in the the NEC. I must have read or heard about it elsewhere. Probably manufacture's instructions as Sparky480 noted.
> 
> ...


You are trying to borrow a neutral from the cieling fan downstream from your shower light right ?




dronai said:


> swimmer said:
> 
> 
> > K&T = Knob and Tube?
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> I mean neutral.
> 
> You guys are right. I don't see a requirement in the the NEC. I must have read or heard about it elsewhere. Probably manufacture's instructions as Sparky480 noted.
> 
> ...


Give it some thought.

Nothing will work without a neutral unless it is a 240 volt circuit.. 



> *Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC).* The conductive
> path(s) installed to connect normally non–current-carrying
> metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded
> conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.





> *Neutral Conductor.* The conductor connected to the neutral
> point of a system that is intended to carry current under
> normal conditions.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I'm lost. Does the circuit come from the GFCI, or the can light? And where does 'a neutral' come from... is it the circuit neutral for the power you're using, or is it just any old neutral? If it's 'just any old neutral' and does not go back through the GFI, you'll have tipping issues.



Harry answered my question about the fan motor so I think I'm all set. Here goes for the "where does the neutral come from"

The shower light, bathroom vanity light bar, bedroom ceiling fan and an outdoor light are the only outlets / switches on this circuit.
I can access neutral, for this circuit in the switch boxes for the shower light, vanity light and ceiling fan. The vanity and shower lights share a switch box. There is a neutral in this box. It goes from the shower light to the vanity light. When I disconnect this neutral in this switch box, I can turn off the vanity light but I can't turn off the shower light. This tells me I'm downstream from the shower light and I can't protect it with it a GFCI at this location. The same thing happens when I do this at the ceiling fan switch box. I can't access neutral in the switch box for the outdoor light.

So where does neutral come from? Probably home run from the service panel into an old ceiling box tucked into the attic to become a junction box when the bathroom was remodeled.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

swimmer said:


> I need to GFI protect a recessed light fixture that is inside a shower.
> 
> There is no neutral in the house that is upstream from this fixture.
> 
> ...


Attics can be fun


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

dronai said:


> You are trying to borrow a neutral from the cieling fan downstream from your shower light right ?
> 
> 
> No, I'm trying to find a hot wire and a neutral upstream from the shower light into which I can insert a GFCI. Failing to find such a switch / outlet box, I'll install a GFCI breaker on this circuit in the service panel.
> Unless I'm completely missing something, a GFCI inserted down stream of load X might protect loads A, B, and C but will definitely not protect load X.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> ..........Nothing will work without a neutral unless it is a 240 volt circuit..


_Technically_ this is an incorrect statement. 120v circuits will work when there's two of them in series across a 240v circuit and they're reasonably balanced.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

swimmer said:


> No, I'm trying to find a hot wire and a neutral upstream from the shower light into which I can insert a GFCI. Failing to find such a switch / outlet box, I'll install a GFCI breaker on this circuit in the service panel.
> Unless I'm completely missing something, a GFCI inserted down stream of load X might protect loads A, B, and C but will definitely not protect load X.


You are correct. But you can't just tie on to any neutral that happens to be handy. You must use the circuit neutral that goes back through the GFCI. If not, the GFCI will sense what it assumes to be a ground fault and open.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

480sparky said:


> _Technically_ this is an incorrect statement. 120v circuits will work when there's two of them in series across a 240v circuit and they're reasonably balanced.


 :blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> _Technically_ this is an incorrect statement. 120v circuits will work when there's two of them in series across a 240v circuit and they're reasonably balanced.




I try to avoid using series circuits whenever possible...:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

swimmer said:


> Harry answered my question about the fan motor so I think I'm all set. Here goes for the "where does the neutral come from"
> 
> The shower light, bathroom vanity light bar, bedroom ceiling fan and an outdoor light are the only outlets / switches on this circuit.
> I can access neutral, for this circuit in the switch boxes for the shower light, vanity light and ceiling fan. The vanity and shower lights share a switch box. There is a neutral in this box. It goes from the shower light to the vanity light. When I disconnect this neutral in this switch box, I can turn off the vanity light but I can't turn off the shower light. This tells me I'm downstream from the shower light and I can't protect it with it a GFCI at this location. The same thing happens when I do this at the ceiling fan switch box. I can't access neutral in the switch box for the outdoor light.
> ...


That sounds like the neutral and that circuit is fed through that shower light into the switch box that is why the other lights shut off when you open the neutral in that switch box and the shower light stays on.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dronai said:


> :blink:



Two 120v loads will operate when hooked in series to 240 volts.... as long as they are reasonably balanced enough not to smoke one of them.

Take two incan. lamps and put them in series on a 240v circuit.....


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That sounds like the neutral and that circuit is fed through that shower light into the switch box that is why the other lights shut off when you open the neutral in that switch box and the shower light stays on.



Yup. And that's why I have no place to insert a GFCI to protect the shower light.

Note that the home run probably goes to an old ceiling box cum junction box.
Haven't seen a home run directly into a canned light wiring box.... yet.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You cannot add on to knob and tube wiring. There is no ground so you cannot continue the circuit.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Two 120v loads will operate when hooked in series to 240 volts.... as long as they are reasonably balanced enough not to smoke one of them.
> 
> Take two incan. lamps and put them in series on a 240v circuit.....


like this ?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dronai said:


> like this ?


Yep. :thumbsup:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



swimmer said:


> I need to GFI protect a recessed light fixture that is inside a shower.
> 
> There is no neutral in the house that is upstream from this fixture.
> 
> ...


Did you say a ceiling fan in the shower??? 

I thought we only do stuff like that in georgia ?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Why not just give them a new bedroom or hall outlet under the bathroom switch bank....Make it a GFCI receptacle, feed down to it and back to your shower light.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

swimmer said:


> You guys are right. I don't see a requirement in the the NEC. I must have read or heard about it elsewhere. Probably manufacture's instructions as Sparky480 noted.
> 
> *Anyway, I'll sleep better knowing my customer won't be taking an electric shower.*


So you are implying that the millions of non-GFI protected shower recessed lights out there are somehow unsafe? :001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cletis said:


> Did you say a ceiling fan in the shower???
> 
> I thought we only do stuff like that in georgia ?



Pfffft. Since when did people in Georgia start taking showers? :laughing:


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Never mind.... Did not realize your dealing with Knob and Tube. Rip it out or walk away.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

swimmer said:


> K&T = Knob and Tube?
> The ceiling fan in the bedroom is down stream from the canned light in the shower. The ceiling fan has a neutral that I can access in a switch box. However, a GFI at this location will only protect the ceiling fan and I don't want to do this.





Dennis Alwon said:


> You cannot add on to knob and tube wiring. There is no ground so you cannot continue the circuit.





Island Electric said:


> Never mind.... Did not realize your dealing with Knob and Tube. Rip it out or walk away.


I don't think he said he had K&T. He was only asking if K&T meant knob and tube. But I suppose the OP would have to answer that for sure.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You cannot add on to knob and tube wiring. There is no ground so you cannot continue the circuit.


What code would you cite?



> 394.10 Uses Permitted. Concealed knob-and-tube wiring
> shall be permitted to be installed in the hollow spaces of
> walls and ceilings, or in unfinished attics and roof spaces as
> provided by 394.23, only as follows:
> ...


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Cletis said:


> Did you say a ceiling fan in the shower???
> 
> I thought we only do stuff like that in georgia ?




Ceiling fan is in the bedroom and is on the same circuit as and downstream of canned light in the shower.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> I don't think he said he had K&T. He was only asking if K&T meant knob and tube. But I suppose the OP would have to answer that for sure.


Correct. There are so many acronyms that I just write them in long hand. It is much faster than explaining in subsequent posts. Also long hand makes you catch transpositions such as EGC and GEC before you post and generate a flurry of spurious replies.

OP = Original Poster?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

swimmer said:


> Correct. There are so many acronyms that I just write them in long hand. It is much faster than explaining in subsequent posts. Also long hand makes you catch transpositions such as EGC and GEC before you post and generate a flurry of spurious replies.
> 
> OP = Original Poster?


Yep or original post


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