# Arc fault nightmares



## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

I have ran into a major problem with this "brilliant" technology. I have done two standard service changes that took to much time because of adding arc fault breakers to a house wired in the 1980's. Two circuits kept tripping. I had to isolate the circuit, and then go through all the devices connected to that circuit. What I descovered was a loose wire nut in a high ceiling fixture. Added time, I ended up eating. But the service cant be cleared by inspection with out the breakers. I have ran into problems with receptacles that where stabbed in the back because of loose wires.When doing new construction I rap all devices to make a good connection, never had a problem. What do u do when adding arc fault to old construction with hog pog circuits that run wild through houses, and old existing loose wire nuts that trip the breaker?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

So, the arc fault breaker tripped because of two loose connections?

It may suck to troubleshoot, but I really don't see how that's a problem with arc faults; sounds like two legitimate wiring problems.

The only thing I'd change would be to put a clause in my contract in the future that allowed me to bill for any time repairing those problems or else adjust my bids accordingly.

-John


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## Dierte (May 12, 2009)

Wow, around here I don't have to replace the existing breakers with arc faults when I do a service change. On another note I was installing light fixtures in a new construction house the other day. I had the circuit on with the switches off. When I went to trim the romex in the light fixture box, it tripped the circuit cutting all 3 conductors at the same time w/ the switch off. They are def some sensitive little bastards.


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## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

Big John said:


> So, the arc fault breaker tripped because of two loose connections?
> 
> It may suck to troubleshoot, but I really don't see how that's a problem with arc faults; sounds like two legitimate wiring problems.
> 
> ...


 I guess I'm whinning about how the new breakers dont always work in old houses. The codes are very strict in northern california and the clause in the contract is a very good idea for covering my butt. Do u think their are better arc fault breakers among one another? I use cutler hammer because my supply house stocks a lot of C&H. thanks for input.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

don't think you cant cross neut and gr....they trip...:no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Making it mandatory to install AFCI breakers on a service change should be called.. _Cruel and unusual punishment.._:no:

Good luck.. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dierte said:


> Wow, around here I don't have to replace the existing breakers with arc faults when I do a service change. On another note I was installing light fixtures in a new construction house the other day. I had the circuit on with the switches off. When I went to trim the romex in the light fixture box, it tripped the circuit cutting all 3 conductors at the same time w/ the switch off. They are def some sensitive little bastards.


 
A short between neutral and ground trips the arc fault. Has nothing to do with the switch.



To the op: I would make sure you have to chaange to arc faults for a service change. Arround here, we do not.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

PureElectric said:


> I have ran into a major problem with this "brilliant" technology. I have done two standard service changes that took to much time because of adding arc fault breakers to a house wired in the 1980's. Two circuits kept tripping. I had to isolate the circuit, and then go through all the devices connected to that circuit. What I descovered was a loose wire nut in a high ceiling fixture. Added time, I ended up eating. But the service cant be cleared by inspection with out the breakers. I have ran into problems with receptacles that where stabbed in the back because of loose wires.When doing new construction I rap all devices to make a good connection, never had a problem. What do u do when adding arc fault to old construction with hog pog circuits that run wild through houses, and old existing loose wire nuts that trip the breaker?


We do the same thing that you did...Investigate...and fix the problem. Your customer is lucky that you went to the trouble.


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## darenk (Aug 6, 2011)

Whew! Installing af's on a service change? Man I feel for ya. Only on new construction or added circuits here in ky. Hell ive spent hours tracking down a loose connector in a recess light or the bad connection in a brand new fan on a new house, id hate to think I had to worry about circuits I didn't install. We still have knob and tube in some places here, you'd have to just rewire the house.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

darenk said:


> Whew! Installing af's on a service change? Man I feel for ya. Only on new construction or added circuits here in ky. Hell ive spent hours tracking down a loose connector in a recess light or the bad connection in a brand new fan on a new house, id hate to think I had to worry about circuits I didn't install. We still have knob and tube in some places here, you'd have to just rewire the house.


Yep, I agree. The post right above yours is totally wacked...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow, my NY inspectors will even let me move the box from one end of the house to the other without installing that garbage.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Wow, my NY inspectors will even let me move the box from one end of the house to the other without installing that garbage.


Our inspectors live in the real world.. good to see people with authority use common sense for a change..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> Our inspectors live in the real world.. good to see people with authority use common sense for a change..


I still remember an argument I had with a Pocono inspector, he stated that us NYers don't know what were doing. He wanted me to install a outside light for the vehicle door on a garage. I asked him if he could explain to me how the car is going to flip the switch. That's what happens in a society were no licensing is required, the blind lead the blind.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> Our inspectors live in the real world.. good to see people with authority use common sense for a change..


Nope, you're the one not in the real world. All that does is inspire unpermitted work, because the homeowners are not gonna bring the whole house up to code, just to remove a fuse panel, and put in a breaker panel. Our inspectors are smart enough to realize that, and they know we are at least improving the situation, without going through the house with a fine tooth comb.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nope, you're the one not in the real world. All that does is inspire unpermitted work, because the homeowners are not gonna bring the whole house up to code, just to remove a fuse panel, and put in a breaker panel. Our inspectors are smart enough to realize that, and they know we are at least improving the situation, without going through the house with a fine tooth comb.


BS.. those houses were fine for all these years and are "grandfathered in"..

Your inspectors are just playing with the NEC to make life miserable for EC's who otherwise would just install a new CB..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nope, you're the one not in the real world. All that does is inspire unpermitted work, because the homeowners are not gonna bring the whole house up to code, just to remove a fuse panel, and put in a breaker panel. Our inspectors are smart enough to realize that, and they know we are at least improving the situation, without going through the house with a fine tooth comb.


At the time these structures were built AFCIs did not exist . Some wiring methods used at that time such as two wire three way systems where the grounded wire would attach to another ckt would make retrofitting these infertile devices to existing work that was code for that day impracticle . If the house was built in 1964 and the wiring conformed to that year the UL and CO was issued then why would any AHC demand that the circuits be brought up to current code ? In that case they might as well require replacing all the branch circuits to full size grounds, current box fill and current tamperproof devices.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> At the time these structures were built AFCIs did not exist . Some wiring methods used at that time such as two wire three way systems where the grounded wire would attach to another ckt would make retrofitting these infertile devices to existing work that was code for that day impracticle . If the house was built in 1964 and the wiring conformed to that year the UL and CO was issued then why would any AHC demand that the circuits be brought up to current code ? In that case they might as well require replacing all the branch circuits to full size grounds, current box fill and current tamperproof devices.


I agree with everything you said here. Your fellow yankee's post, however, make absolutely no sense...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree with everything you said here. Your fellow yankee's post, however, make absolutely no sense...


:001_huh::laughing::laughing::laughing:
PS ; I'm far from a yankee.:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> :001_huh::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> PS ; I'm far from a yankee.:thumbsup:


He doesn't like me very much.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> He doesn't like me very much.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


Oh I see that:laughing:


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