# Baseboard heat questions



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I am new to baseboard heat, and the house I am rewiring will have baseboard heat. There is no gas on premise, so this is my only option. I have never done baseboard heat. TO start off, is this a good calculator to size my heater to room size: http://www.heatershop.com/btu_calculator.htm

Secondly, How do I rough for BBH? Box in the wall, stub out of the wall? 

As far as controlling, I am guessing that each room will have a Tstat, which may or may not come with the BBH and will need to be wired into the BBH with some 24v wire?

How would I size a big room, such as 15' x 60'? A few BBH'rs on 1 Tstat?

Thanks for any input from those who have done this before.:thumbsup:

~Matt


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> TO start off, is this a good calculator to size my heater to room size: http://www.heatershop.com/btu_calculator.htm


I don't know.



> Secondly, How do I rough for BBH? Box in the wall, stub out of the wall?


Stub out



> As far as controlling, I am guessing that each room will have a Tstat, which may or may not come with the BBH and will need to be wired into the BBH with some 24v wire?


You could but we always used live voltage stats often on 30 amp 240 circuits.



> How would I size a big room, such as 15' x 60'? A few BBH'rs on 1 Tstat?


That is how I would do it.

BTW, baseboard on outside walls only.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, so the BBH mounts to the wall, correct?
Does the line voltage Tstat mount to the unit or just somewhere on the wall?
And just curious, why only mount to the outside / exterior walls?


~Matt


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Ok, so the BBH mounts to the wall, correct?
> ~Matt


Yes


> Does the line voltage Tstat mount to the unit or just somewhere on the wall?


You can go either way but IMO the baseboard mounted ones suck.




> And just curious, why only mount to the outside / exterior walls?


Best results / more comfortable for occupants.

You want the heat where the cold is coming from.

Don't forget that receptacles cannot be above the base board.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=96681


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks Bob :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I am new to baseboard heat, and the house I am rewiring will have baseboard heat. There is no gas on premise, so this is my only option. I have never done baseboard heat. TO start off, is this a good calculator to size my heater to room size: http://www.heatershop.com/btu_calculator.htm
> 
> Secondly, How do I rough for BBH? Box in the wall, stub out of the wall?
> 
> ...


 I have done a lot of baseboard heater jobs. Here is my advice:

Approx 10 watts per sq ft.of board.
One T stat per room, it has to pick up the ambient temp of the room.
Do not overload circuits, 3750 watts max.per cct.
Use deep boxes at stats, which are line voltage. 
Feed into stat... stat to heater... from feed in stat, to stat in next room. etc.
Minimum 2 conductor # 12.
Maximum breaker size 20 amp D/P.

If you do not exceed 3750 watts per cct, then 20 amp is good.

Any other info, just ask!


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

When you stub out, stub out at 8" it will usually land right at the KO with a 2 inch gap off the floor. When you buy the heaters buy the ones that are silicone filled, and yes they always smell that way when you first turn them on.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

My rules of thumb for installing baseboard heat:


calculate the amount of heat required per room by multiplying that rooms dimensions (length, width, and height).
Use one watt of heat per cubic foot of room space calculated. 
With only a couple exceptions, electric baseboard heat is 250 watts per lineal foot, with the notabe exception of 8 footers coming in 2000 watt and a "high density" version in 2500 watt.

For ordinary residential use, your electric baseboard heat circuits will normally be 20 amp, with 12-gauge wiring
Rough in the heat on the outside walls only, preferrably under the window(s). For instance, if the calculated heat should be 2000 watts in a certain room (8 feet), and that room has two windows, rough in for a 4-footer under each window.
ONLY USE WALL THERMOSTATS!, unless other conditions prevail. Heater mounted thermostats provide inaccurte temperature control, and their use should be reserved for very small rooms, like bathrooms, in old work. Never rough in a new install and plan on using heater monted thermostats.

Leave plenty of room in each thermostat box. Typically, you'd use either a very deep single gang for a single feed (feed in and feed out to heater), or a deep 4-square with a single-gang mud ring for more than two conductors (when putting more than one room on a single circiut). 
The typical rough in height for wall mounted thermostats is 54" to the bottom of the box, unless you're on an ADA job.

The typical rough in dimension for the tail out to the heater is 3" up from the deck, and 3" in from the end of the heater. Either end can be fed. 

There was a day when mechanical wall thermostats were good, and accurate, but that time has passed. Avoid mechanical wall thermostats, and go digital. Most digital line voltage thermostats now have a max amp rating of 16 amps, so keep that in mind. I recommend the Honeywell LineVolt Pro. 
For more than 20 amps of heat controlled by a single thermostat, like for a finished basement remodel, I recommend using a White-Rogers "silent operator" relay and a regular 24v wall thermostat of your choice, such as a Honeywell T-87


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks for your input as well Mark, The last tidbit of info is probably the answer to my "huge room to heat" question.


Another question that came up while researching this is what brands to use or stay away from. I am seeing good reviews from cadet heating, anyone used them before?

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I only know Cadet from unit heaters, but most of your ordinary baseboard heat is made by the same OEM... Marley. They make a great many brands of electric baseboard heat. I've never used any baseboard heat from Cadet. I've only ever used one of the Marley brands. They're the most "standard" and easiest to work with. 

Get this straight... all electric heat is 100% efficient. Any other claims are just marketing. Shop on price. Electric baseboard heat is durable and long-lived, no matter the brand.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Get this straight... all electric heat is 100% efficient.


People have a hard time with that for sure.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Get this straight... all electric heat is 100% efficient.


But it is a b*tch on the electric bill now a days


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> My rules of thumb for installing baseboard heat:
> 
> 
> calculate the amount of heat required per room by multiplying that rooms dimensions (length, width, and height).
> ...


 You explained in better detail than I did. THANKS. Honeywell also has the relays, if you wish to have L V control t.stats. The relays are mounted beside the distribution panel.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You might consider in wall electric heaters. They have fans but operate the same as a baseboard. Take up less wall space but are louder due to the fan. If this is not a bid I'd consider the electronic line voltage t-stats at Home Depot as they regulate the heat much better than the basic t-stats.


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

*electric baseboard heat*

MD gave you a lot of good information.

I have installed a lot a electric baseboard heat.

One I don't use unit mounted thermostat.

When I use line voltage thermostat, I install the two line break, with
a positive off. Most people don't like this, because that can turn
the heat off inide the room. I like it becaue if I have to service it,
the heat thermostat breaker the 240 volts.

For big area I end up using low voltage switching relays, control by low voltage thermostat
I had one customer with electric heat, that have install a telephone control thermostat.
He had the house fix's, vacation use, so he could turn off the electric heat, but when he
headed to his vaction home, he would phone ahead, and the house would nice and war,
when he arrived. Love it.

Also check with the local power company to see if they offer some
type of seperate meter, aka, off peak, for electric heat, this is usually
bill out to the customer at a lower kwH rate.

Good luck.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

JoeKP said:


> But it is a b*tch on the electric bill now a days


True. Electricity can be an expensive "fuel". In the late 60's and 70's, it was cheap, and all-electric homes were in favor in my area. They even put little brass plaques on the front of the house, next to the door, that proclaimed that this was an all-electric home. Times have changed.

The only unity of measure that all heating sources have in common is called a Therm. The price per therm of oil, gas, coal, wood, and straight electric has a pretty wide split. Last I checked (Feb), oil was the cheapest way to heat at the time, unless you can get free wood. It varies almost from day to day, though.

For a rental unit, a room addition, an occasional use room, or as supplementary heat, electric baseboard can still be a favorable option.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The last BB heat job I snaked I ran a central zone low voltage t stat back to a 24v contactor located next to the panel. The house had three zones and the heating was even through out.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)




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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Heres an issue: I have a room that is going to require more than 10kw of heat... man I dont know what im going to do about that one. I dont think I can get enough baseboard heaters in that room! Im probably going to have to require the assistance of a heat pump maybe?

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

For 10KW, if you must do electric, that's when you start to think about fan-forced wall heaters or cassette heaters. You can get them in 5kw each, if you feel so inclined. 

Do you physically have room for 4-8' high density (2500 watt each) baseboard heaters?

Is there any capacity left on the home's present heating system to get at least some heat to the new space from the existing system?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> For 10KW, if you must do electric, that's when you start to think about fan-forced wall heaters or cassette heaters. You can get them in 5kw each, if you feel so inclined.
> 
> Do you physically have room for 4-8' high density (2500 watt each) baseboard heaters?


Yes, but they will not be able to be under a window - I would have to talk to my customer about this much space being used by the heaters as well.

Maybe a wall heater is what I will have to do.



MDShunk said:


> Is there any capacity left on the home's present heating system to get at least some heat to the new space from the existing system?


There is no existing heating system. This was a gut an replace, down to the studs.

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Yes, but they will not be able to be under a window - I would have to talk to my customer about this much space being used by the heaters as well.
> 
> Maybe a wall heater is what I will have to do.
> 
> ...


Now, hang on a second. Is this one huge room or many rooms? 

You do know, that for electric baseboard heat, you put a thermostat in each room, right? You do your calculation PER ROOM.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Now, hang on a second. Is this one huge room or many rooms?
> 
> You do know, that for electric baseboard heat, you put a thermostat in each room, right? You do your calculation PER ROOM.


one huge room, consisting of kitchen, dining and living room. Roughly 15' x 70' x 10' ceilings.

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

so in that room mentioned above, would 2 4800w or 3 3500w heaters be better? or would it really matter much. I cant have any heaters in the kitchen, so 1/3 of that rectangular space is 'off limits'

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You can gets tons of heat in a kitchen if you use electric "kickspace heaters".


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Ok, now I have some ideas to take to my customer. Thanks Marc

~Matt


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Regards to Badger, 
but there is a code that allows outlets above a Baseboard section so that you can keep code in regards to the "no wallspace farther than 6' away" rule for outlets. 
Quote 2008 nec,

424.9 General. All fixed electric space-heating equipment
shall be installed in an approved manner.
Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped
with factory-installed receptacle outlets, or outlets provided as
a separate listed assembly, shall be permitted in lieu of a re-
ceptacle outlet(s) that is required by 210.50(B). Such recep-
tacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that
may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

JohnR said:


> Regards to Badger,
> but there is a code that allows outlets above a Baseboard section so that you can keep code in regards to the "no wallspace farther than 6' away" rule for outlets.
> Quote 2008 nec,
> 
> ...


John that section does not allow receptacles _above_ the baseboards, it allows the use of baseboard heat mounted receptacles to serve as the required receptacles.

We would just make sure to install our receptacles between baseboard electric heat not above them. I dislike the receptacles that can be mounted in the heaters.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> John that section does not allow receptacles _above_ the baseboards, it allows the use of baseboard heat mounted receptacles to serve as the required receptacles.
> 
> We would just make sure to install our receptacles between baseboard electric heat not above them. I dislike the receptacles that can be mounted in the heaters.


 I have only used the receptacle kits, when there was absolutely no other way.

I do not like them either.

Another solution would be to use 2 shorter (length) boards, in place of one longer board. Then you could install a regular receptacle, between.

Another solution: Fan forced heaters, Another solution is: CONVECTAIR heaters

CONVECTAIR IS A TRADE NAME. Google CONVECTAIR heaters.

I Hope this is helpful.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> so in that room mentioned above, would 2 4800w or 3 3500w heaters be better? or would it really matter much. I cant have any heaters in the kitchen, so 1/3 of that rectangular space is 'off limits'
> 
> ~Matt


My aunt bought a house in Virginia. Baseboard heat everywhere. One 4' in kitchen, 2 8' feet in living and 1 8' in diningroom. It was a big open area also. We replaced them all and moved several so she could put her furniture where she wanted it.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

If the house is gutted, could you put underfloor radiant heat? Does the customer want that? Maybe that would be easier in the super gigantic room.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> John that section does not allow receptacles _above_ the baseboards, it allows the use of baseboard heat mounted receptacles to serve as the required receptacles.
> 
> We would just make sure to install our receptacles between baseboard electric heat not above them. I dislike the receptacles that can be mounted in the heaters.


Uh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. It was phrased that way to me and as it was new to me at the time,I guess it stuck like that. 
I don't like electric heat at all never mind putting outlets in them.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> If the house is gutted, could you put underfloor radiant heat? Does the customer want that? Maybe that would be easier in the super gigantic room.


Talked to my customer this evening, he does not want the wall units, nor floor heat. He said to install as much baseboard heat as possible... so back to the plans I go to see what I can stuff in that room where they will not be in the way.

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Talked to my customer this evening, he does not want the wall units, nor floor heat. He said to install as much baseboard heat as possible... so back to the plans I go to see what I can stuff in that room where they will not be in the way.
> 
> ~Matt


I'd still push for a 2kw toekick heater under the sink base cabinet, unless this just a flip or a rental.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> so back to the plans I go to see what I can stuff in that room where they will not be in the way.


They are always in the way.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Those kickspace heaters seem to push quite a bit of heat around a room for how small they are


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> Those kickspace heaters seem to push quite a bit of heat around a room for how small they are


 Be very careful with Kickspace heaters, they tend to yellow the flooring in front of them, after a few years. I M O.

I used to install them in front of the kitchen sink, but had many complaints, because of the heat at the feet, when doing dishes etc.

This is strictly my opinion.

Alternate methods for kitchen heating are available.


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## azap (Aug 18, 2010)

great info and advice. heres a dumb Q, i have a question on lever bi-pass meters and can't fiqure out how to "post a tread" wheres the button that says "post new thread" ?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

azap said:


> great info and advice. heres a dumb Q, i have a question on lever bi-pass meters and can't fiqure out how to "post a tread" wheres the button that says "post new thread" ?


 Punch in; F A Q


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## partimer31 (Jun 9, 2009)

*electrica baseboard heating*

Hi., all this talk about electric baseboard heat, why not look at another
electric heating product, please note I am not a sale person, pitching
something here.

Try google: Comfort Cove Radiant Heating Systems.

This product is all electric, similar to electric baseboard but it mount high
the wall, and not a baseboard level.

To the others, please post any comments you may have about electric Radiant Cove heating sytems.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I saw ads for comfort cove about 5 years ago, and I was skeptical then. I'm not so sure I want to get into installing what's essentially decorative trim, and the price point was unusually high for all the more it is. Plus, heat rises, so it always seems counterproductive to have your heat source up high anyhow.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I did remember see the adverments about the confort cove before IMO I am not too nutty either after I check the price.

I know they look nice but how practical it will work ?? IDK with that.

Merci.
Marc


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