# Two conductors on one screw



## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Hi All,

I just went through a house where the main panel had two conductors under a single circuit breaker screw.... But the breaker is labeled for "1 or 2" conductors and it is the Square D QO type, which I've also seen mentioned on here as a type that is OK to have two conductors on. I'm assuming this setup is not a problem. Does that sound right? Should I post a photo? BTW the two conductors appear to be the same size (14 gauge). 

Since in Home Inspector training it was stated that two conductors into a breaker are ALWAYS a defect.... I'm thinking my best bet is to mention it in the report rather than ignore it altogether, but say that it is not a defect in this particular case, and also include a photo of the label on the breaker which backs this up. Just in case. 

Sound OK?

Thanks in advance,

Mike


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What you were taught in your class is wrong and you should not mention it in the report.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

NJMike said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I just went through a house where the main panel had two conductors under a single circuit breaker screw.... But the breaker is labeled for "1 or 2" conductors and it is the Square D QO type, which I've also seen mentioned on here as a type that is OK to have two conductors on. I'm assuming this setup is not a problem. Does that sound right? Should I post a photo? BTW the two conductors appear to be the same size (14 gauge).
> 
> ...


NEC 70-110.14 (A)-Last sentence. Go read it and come back and tell us what it says.


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## SeanR (May 17, 2017)

Most panels only allow one wire per breaker. Except for the Square D panels. They are equipped with a plate under the screw that allows for two wires.


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

One more reason to use QO.......along with many others


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

John M. said:


> One more reason to use QO.......


Pay $4 more per breaker to save someone from using a 15 cent wirenut and tail of wire at some random time in the future? 

Jesus Christ, I want off this planet...


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Two conductors under one screw _might _suggest that additional 
circuits were added after the fact and these additions to the 
original circuit_ may _exceed the number of loads allowed on the 
circuit. Worst instance would be if loads required to be dedicated*
were combined ie fridge on with dishwasher. 
* As per CEC, your code may vary.
P&L


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

I like the quick trip feature with Square D. I dont think any other companies have it.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Pay $4 more per breaker to save someone from using a 15 cent wirenut and tail of wire at some random time in the future?
> 
> Jesus Christ, I want off this planet...


I will even help ya pack!

http://www.mars-one.com/


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LuckyLuke said:


> I will even help ya pack!
> 
> http://www.mars-one.com/


Not necessary ... I hear Borgi is packing up for him :jester:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LuckyLuke said:


> I will even help ya pack!
> 
> http://www.mars-one.com/


 I can pack my own stuff. I was hoping for a monetary donation.


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

They sound anxious to get rid of you. Are you competitors?


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

NEC 110.14(A): "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified."

Yup. In fairness, during the HI training class, they did say that manufacturer's labeling can supersede the normal rules, but they did not point out the possibility of this particular situation. I expect it is not actually so uncommon.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

emtnut said:


> Not necessary ... I hear Borgi is packing up for him :jester:


Please tell me Hack is taking him as his plus one.....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LuckyLuke said:


> Please tell me Hack is taking him as his plus one.....


I wasn't going to say anything about this, but the whole Borgi thing is a lie. We aren't really roommates. I've never even met him.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

NJMike said:


> NEC 110.14(A): "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified."
> 
> Yup. In fairness, during the HI training class, they did say that manufacturer's labeling can supersede the normal rules, but they did not point out the possibility of this particular situation. I expect it is not actually so uncommon.


The tap itself is fine, and sounds like you knew that anyways :thumbsup:
@PlugsAndLights brought up a very good point in post #7
So it wouldn't hurt if you recommend an electrician to check the circuit loading


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I wasn't going to say anything about this, but the whole Borgi thing is a lie. We aren't really roommates. I've never even met him.


Ya, that's what my last ex said about me too :jester:


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I wasn't going to say anything about this, but the whole Borgi thing is a lie. We aren't really roommates. I've never even met him.


I know, but I am sure you dream of the day of what may become :thumbsup:


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

NJMike said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I just went through a house where the main panel had two conductors under a single circuit breaker screw.... But the breaker is labeled for "1 or 2" conductors and it is the Square D QO type, which I've also seen mentioned on here as a type that is OK to have two conductors on. I'm assuming this setup is not a problem. Does that sound right? Should I post a photo? BTW the two conductors appear to be the same size (14 gauge).
> 
> ...


 As a home inspector, I would assume your job involves pointing out things that might or might not be correct.
After all, one person can not know everything.
I say include it in your report.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

NJMike said:


> NEC 110.14(A): "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified."
> 
> Yup. In fairness, during the HI training class, they did say that manufacturer's labeling can supersede the normal rules, but they did not point out the possibility of this particular situation. I expect it is not actually so uncommon.


Cool, now we know you have a code book.:thumbsup: 

So the QO is listed for two wires, if it was done by a competent electrician that knew they weren't overloading the circuit, it's ok. How do we know that? We don't, unless we do some exploring, but it's not ALWAYS a defect, as stated.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

ELECTRICK2 said:


> As a home inspector, I would assume your job involves pointing out things that might or might not be correct.
> After all, one person can not know everything.
> I say include it in your report.


Besides, no home inspection report would be complete without at least one "Breaker double tapped"...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

emtnut said:


> Ya, that's what my last ex said about me too :jester:


Did he post in this forum too?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Did he post in this forum too?


I was going to keep our affair a secret ...

Now I'm glad I kicked you out


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

emtnut said:


> I was going to keep our affair a secret ...
> 
> Now I'm glad I kicked you out


You'll come crawling back, just like every other time.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> You'll come crawling back, just like every other time.


Nope :no:

I see Hax and Borgi are breaking up ... I know Hax has been warming up to me ... I'm Jersey bound :vs-kiss:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

:thumbsup:


emtnut said:


> Nope :no:
> 
> I see Hax and Borgi are breaking up ... I know Hax has been warming up to me ... I'm Jersey bound :vs-kiss:


Hax talks a good game in public, but Borgi will just bat his eyes and Hax'll come a'runnin'. 

As for you and me... we'll be done when I say we're done:sneaky2:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Hax talks a good game in public, but Borgi will just bat his eyes and Hax'll come a'runnin'.
> 
> As for you and me... we'll be done when I say we're done:sneaky2:


2 conductors ... one screw .... Hmmmm, maybe we can work something out :whistling2:


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

"After all, one person can not know everything.
I say include it in your report."

Also because if almost any other HI looks over this place, they are almost guaranteed to cite it as a defect, so I want to record that I saw it but didn't call it out because of the label.

There is almost always SOMETHING in the panel that allows me to justify recommending they have it checked by an electrician. In this case, one of the breakers has an aluminum conductor but I can't find any indication on it that it's OK with AL, it only says CU. And the insulation looks a little cooked at the end. And the bus bar has mixed grounds and neutrals, three to a hole in a few spots.... so I don't need the "double tap" as an excuse, there are plenty of other sins in this one...

Thanks!

Mike


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

For clarity: I mean mixed grounds and neutrals together *in the same holes* on the bus bar. That was not even allowed years ago, correct? This particular house would have been built to 1970 NEC I think.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Pay $4 more per breaker to save someone from using a 15 cent wirenut and tail of wire at some random time in the future?
> 
> Jesus Christ, I want off this planet...


You're paying $.88 for your BR breakers?

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> You're paying $.88 for your BR breakers?
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


Nope, I pay $3 for QT breakers.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Nope, I pay $3 for QT breakers.


So that means you're paying $7 for QO breakers? You need to get a different supplier.

Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> So that means you're paying $7 for QO breakers? You need to get a different supplier.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung with a cracked screen protector


I have 17 suppliers in my service area.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

LuckyLuke said:


> I will even help ya pack!
> 
> http://www.mars-one.com/


OMG!!! I just thought of this!

Electricity on Mars _won't *work *_because there is....no....EARTH!:vs_shocked:

No OCPD...no lightning protection...no magical earthing for the weird and wacky world of...well...*earthing*!

*WTF are we gonna do???*:vs_worry:






:vs_smile:


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

NJMike said:


> For clarity: I mean mixed grounds and neutrals together *in the same holes* on the bus bar. That was not even allowed years ago, correct? This particular house would have been built to 1970 NEC I think.


Whatever rules prohibited ground and neutral in same "hole" had previously been rather obscure and may have been illegal only due to manufacturer instructions or listing not included with panel

Until a few years ago when NEC specifically outlawed, I don't remember the year but was much more recent than 1970, I'm thinking this century?


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## Miroda (Dec 6, 2014)

I didn't know that home inspectors were even allowed to open an electrical panel unless they were themselves a lisenced electrician.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Couple things:

Yes, as P&L points out, it raises the worry that the breaker is overloaded. But, that's the sort of thing that a home inspection has little chance of uncovering anyway. I would point out signs of overheating if I saw them but otherwise I'm not likely to detect overloading. 
Also: Yes, home inspectors remove the cover from the main and any sub panels, and check inside. This is well worthwhile because if you detect anything burnt looking - loose or overloaded - you could really be saving someone a very bad day. And, very often an older home that should really be examined by an electrician will provide some kind of excuse to call one in because of various issues inside the panels.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NJMike said:


> Couple things:
> 
> Yes, as P&L points out, it raises the worry that the breaker is overloaded.


Someone adding something to a circuit, whether it be spliced in a junction box, an outlet box, or inside the panel, does not indictate an overloaded circuit in any way. 

If anything, when someone adds on to a circuit the panel, there is less of a chance of that circuit being overloaded due to the fact that they can choose any circuit to connect to and they would most likely choose one that has a small load currently on it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

At least half of the grand old ''double tap breaker '' paydays I have been sent to by frantic realtors after the HI got done, were a big bad doorbell transformer load. You can see the little squiggly black and white wires going over to the old style bar and set screw mounting means if the panel is recessed in a wall, and it is painfully obvious what it is. 

I always tell them thank God they caught that in time. Also half of those half are Square D panels and breakers .


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

RePhase277 said:


> Besides, no home inspection report would be complete without at least one "Breaker double tapped"...


What is with that, like an inside joke?! THEY ALWAYS DO IT!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The real thing you need to look out for is to make sure that there are tamper resistant GFCI's in the bathroom.


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## hatsgoods (Jun 15, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I can pack my own stuff. I was hoping for a monetary donation.


can i come to? LOL


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

SeanR said:


> Most panels only allow one wire per breaker. Except for the Square D panels. They are equipped with a plate under the screw that allows for two wires.


Eaton's CH line is also listed for use with two conductors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Eaton's CH line is also listed for use with two conductors.


I didn't believe it due to the style of the lug, but you're right. (2) #14-10 can be installed, even says solid and stranded can be used together.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

Oh man, in the HI training that's what they tell you to do! Apparently it doesn't matter if it's just a doorbell transformer, it's the physical problem of there being two conductors, so even with the load being about nil you're supposed to call it out. I think it wouldn't have killed them to at least *mention* that there *might* actually be a dang *printed label right on the breaker* that says go right ahead and put two conductors on it! How embarrassing!


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