# My First Panel Termination - What do you think?



## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Hello! I'm Kevin, new to the site.

I've been in the trade for about 1.5 years now. Got a chance to makeup a panel this week for the first time. The panel was split into 4 sections (ckts 1-138) I did not do the feeders, just branch. I think it looks pretty good, but I know what "looks good" may not always be best for functionality/performance.....So, I ask you all for your critiques of my work . I was actually looking forward to having the inspector check it out and give me his opinion but this panel was signed off on awhile ago, so it's already good to go.


How It Started:










Section 2:











Neutral Labeling:










Sections 1-2:










Sections 2-3:










Sections 2-4:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

wsntme said:


> Hello! I'm Kevin, new to the site.
> 
> I've been in the trade for about 1.5 years now. Got a chance to makeup a panel this week for the first time. The panel was split into 4 sections (ckts 1-138) I did not do the feeders, just branch. I think it looks pretty good, but I know what "looks good" may not always be best for functionality/performance.....So, I ask you all for your critiques of my work . I was actually looking forward to having the inspector check it out and give me his opinion but this panel was signed off on awhile ago, so it's already good to go.
> 
> ...



Very nice, clean, work. Keep it up! :thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Good work.:thumbup: did you build the whole room and run all that pipe?


Looks good all around...:thumbsup:

Welcome to the forum you will have fun here.:thumbup:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I prefer zip ties :laughing:


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Good work.:thumbup: did you build the whole room and run all that pipe?
> 
> 
> Looks good all around...:thumbsup:



No, I was on this job in the summer of last year doing the underground....then as steel was near completion I was sent to another job. Just got back to this site 2 weeks ago and been doing nothing but lighting and makeup, lots of makeup!

Here are some pic of the main electric room underground. Lots going on because it feeds 3 floor.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T buries just PVC boxes.... you bury _pipe organs_! :laughing:


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> I prefer zip ties :laughing:


I do like the convenience but not the look. I also tried avoiding sticky backs because I always see them coming off after a while.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Looks good, maybe I will get to see it in person on a service call sometime down the road. I always enjoy adding to nicely made up panels. 

I use zip ties instead of wire scrap but that's just how I roll.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Very nice looking work. Post some more pic's.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

william1978 said:


> Very nice looking work. Post some more pic's.



Glad you like it! Wish I would take more pics of what I do but it just seems like too much trouble when they've got me hurrying around all the time! 

Heres one that's good for a laugh.... my lead told me that our foreman "wants everything separated; neutrals, grounds, phases."....well I interpreted that a lil' off so this i how i started haha.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Looks good, maybe I will get to see it in person on a service call sometime down the road. I always enjoy adding to nicely made up panels.
> 
> I use zip ties instead of wire scrap but that's just how I roll.


It's at the O.A.S.I.S Hospital 40th St and 202....


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

What code cycle are you guys on?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

wsntme said:


> It's at the O.A.S.I.S Hospital 40th St and 202....


Then I hope I don't come across it, I hate hospital service work, too many rules, regs and procedures you have to follow.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

one more underground shot

and a box shot, I try to keep them organized because I HATE digging to the back of a box through a bunch of solid just so I can add something or troubleshoot connections....

and thats my cart, cords laying around the jobsite don't even phase me anymore! Plus I built a nice little self contained carrier for it. :thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Then I hope I don't come across it, I hate hospital service work, too many rules, regs and procedures you have to follow.


 Great money to be made in hospital work.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

So you work for Gaylor?


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

william1978 said:


> What code cycle are you guys on?



I'm not sure. Not quite sure what that means even. Like as far as NEC book year?


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

william1978 said:


> So you work for Gaylor?


Yes Sir. I like it so far! :thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

william1978 said:


> What code cycle are you guys on?


I'm guessing that was done under 05


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Then I hope I don't come across it, I hate hospital service work, too many rules, regs and procedures you have to follow.


They do have a hefty spec book! Somethings you have to do are a bit of a PITA that's for sure! All lighting that is off of critical or life safety power has to be piped from box to light....Much harder when it comes to the patient room bathroom lights which are 2x2 in a hardlid. Once you mount the light you have to find someone that can fit in a 1x1 register so that you can pipe the light! Good times


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

wsntme said:


> I'm not sure. Not quite sure what that means even. Like as far as NEC book year?


 yes.:thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

wsntme said:


> one more underground shot
> 
> and a box shot, I try to keep them organized because I HATE digging to the back of a box through a bunch of solid just so I can add something or troubleshoot connections....
> 
> and thats my cart, cords laying around the jobsite don't even phase me anymore! Plus I built a nice little self contained carrier for it. :thumbsup:



That j-box is sexy.

~Matt


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That j-box is sexy.
> 
> ~Matt


Thanks! :thumbup:


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

william1978 said:


> yes.:thumbsup:


I am not sure by which standards we are currently governed, to be honest. In school we are currently using the 2008 book though.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

wsntme said:


> Thanks! :thumbup:


Good job all around - depending on how fast that took you to do, Id hire you.:thumbsup:

~Matt


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Super looking work man. I wish my helper had half the ambition you seem to have.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Good job all around - depending on how fast that took you to do, Id hire you.:thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt



Well, being my first time I don't think it went as fast as it could have. Also, since the guys pulling wire grossly over estimated (better than short) the length from pullbox to panel I was left sorting through no less than 15 ft of EXTRA wire just to get to the number. As you can see from the first pic, it was a huge mess! To top it off, they were still pulling this panel as I was landing it, which was necessary just to get the wire that had been pulled in, out of the way.

All that being said, it took me just over two days to terminate, label, beautify.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

wsntme said:


> Well, being my first time I don't think it went as fast as it could have. Also, since the guys pulling wire grossly over estimated (better than short) the length from pullbox to panel I was left sorting through no less than 15 ft of EXTRA wire just to get to the number. As you can see from the first pic, it was a huge mess! To top it off, they were still pulling this panel as I was landing it, which was necessary just to get the wire that had been pulled in, out of the way.
> 
> All that being said, it took me just over two days to terminate, label, beautify.


2 days for people being in your way, really long wires, your first panel make up - not really all that bad.

Besides, speed will just come naturally with doing the work, its the ambition to do it clean and right the first time that matters the most.:thumbsup:

~Matt


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

wsntme said:


> Well, being my first time I don't think it went as fast as it could have. Also, since the guys pulling wire grossly over estimated (better than short) the length from pullbox to panel I was left sorting through no less than 15 ft of EXTRA wire just to get to the number. As you can see from the first pic, it was a huge mess! To top it off, they were still pulling this panel as I was landing it, which was necessary just to get the wire that had been pulled in, out of the way.
> 
> All that being said, it took me just over two days to terminate, label, beautify.


 Well you have the right idea and being a first year guy thats some damm good work there are a lott of 4th year guys that could not do that well at all......Good stuff..:thumbup:


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Well you have the right idea and being a first year guy thats some damm good work there are a lott of 4th year guys that could not do that well at all......Good stuff..:thumbup:


I think a lot of guys COULD do what they do well, it's just that some of them don't give a dang. If someone ever asks "who did this?" I want to always be able to say "I did" with pride, rather than keeping quite and just looking around as no one fesses up lol. 

Thanks for the props


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Outstanding work man, keep it up and don't lower your standards for anybody!! :thumbup:


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Kevin

That work looks great....A lot of tradesmen would be very envious of your work...Keep it up.....As far as having extra long wires to fit off...i say... "its better to be looking at it than looking for it" ;-) Hope that makes sense...?

Just one thing....I noticed some of the neutral wires have 3 labels on them...??..Is is part of a 3 phase circuit ??? Or is it what i think you guys call a multi branch circuit...??

Thanks for sharing

Frank


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I thought that using *wire* to bundle wires together was against some code. Old Electrician's tale?


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## vickieB (Feb 21, 2011)

Looks like a " Neat and workman like manner" Really does look good. I bet you feel good about it. You always learn and never forget!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

wsntme said:


> Hello! I'm Kevin, new to the site.
> 
> I've been in the trade for about 1.5 years now. Got a chance to makeup a panel this week for the first time. The panel was split into 4 sections (ckts 1-138) I did not do the feeders, just branch. I think it looks pretty good, but I know what "looks good" may not always be best for functionality/performance.....So, I ask you all for your critiques of my work . I was actually looking forward to having the inspector check it out and give me his opinion but this panel was signed off on awhile ago, so it's already good to go.
> 
> ...



I'd say if I was paying you $25/ hour to hurry the f up!


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Nice looking work. 10 years in and I still can't get a panel to look like that. I don't have the time.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

wsntme said:


> Hello! I'm Kevin, new to the site.
> 
> I've been in the trade for about 1.5 years now. Got a chance to makeup a panel this week for the first time. The panel was split into 4 sections (ckts 1-138) I did not do the feeders, just branch. I think it looks pretty good, but I know what "looks good" may not always be best for functionality/performance.....So, I ask you all for your critiques of my work . I was actually looking forward to having the inspector check it out and give me his opinion but this panel was signed off on awhile ago, so it's already good to go.


It looks like you have MWBC's there and they are all single pole circuit breakers.



> 210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits.
> (B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


Violation of 210.4(B)


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I'd say if I was paying you $25/ hour to hurry the f up!


$25 an hour is helper wages here... In case you have troubles reading - this was his first panel he ever made up. Some people take pride in their work.


There is always someone in the group that just likes to shlt on people.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I'd say if I was paying you $25/ hour to hurry the f up!


I'd never say that to a 1st year that's never made up a panel before.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

That look nice however I am not sure if the panel #3 look " upside down " if that the case someone goof on that one.

Merci.
Marc


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> 2 days for people being in your way, really long wires, your first panel make up - not really all that bad.
> 
> Besides, speed will just come naturally with doing the work, its the ambition to do it clean and right the first time that matters the most.:thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt


Then after that first time it all goes downhill :laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Nice panel. Two days though?


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Frank Mc said:


> Hi Kevin
> 
> That work looks great....A lot of tradesmen would be very envious of your work...Keep it up.....As far as having extra long wires to fit off...i say... "its better to be looking at it than looking for it" ;-) Hope that makes sense...?
> 
> ...


 Yes Frank this is a hospital with 3 phase power. On general power receps and non critical lighting we can run 3 hots per neutral (only one of each phase of course). Every neutral must be labeled on this job.


220/221 said:


> I thought that using *wire* to bundle wires together was against some code. Old Electrician's tale?


I have not heard yet that it was against code. I learned it from a co-worker. He's a long time electrician. Some say they don't like the look, some say they do, you're the first to suggest a violation so I'm not sure....



vickieB said:


> Looks like a " Neat and workman like manner" Really does look good. I bet you feel good about it. You always learn and never forget!


I feel very good about it :thumbsup: I learn something everyday 



Magnettica said:


> I'd say if I was paying you $25/ hour to hurry the f up!


Well you'd be paying me a bit over half of that so i'd say calm the f down and don't hate :jester:



tkb said:


> It looks like you have MWBC's there and they are all single pole circuit breakers.
> 
> 
> Violation of 210.4(B)


All circuits that are boated together will be tied together using breaker ties. I have not been given those yet. Good catch.



frenchelectrican said:


> That look nice however I am not sure if the panel #3 look " upside down " if that the case someone goof on that one.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


I also thought it looked odd but all manufacturer markings are there and "mount this end up" is visible and upright. Just panel design I suppose :shrug:


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

jza said:


> Nice panel. Two days though?



yep  . I did take minor side tracks to make room for wire pulling, or give a hand.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> *$25 an hour is helper wages here...* In case you have troubles reading - this was his first panel he ever made up. Some people take pride in their work.
> 
> 
> There is always someone in the group that just likes to shlt on people.
> ...


So is $4 gasoline, what's your point? 

I take pride in my work too, but at the end of the day nobody gives a **** about a perfect looking panel(s) except here, MH forum, and a few select electricians.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So is $4 gasoline, what's your point?
> 
> I take pride in my work too, but at the end of the day nobody gives a **** about a perfect looking panel(s) except here, MH forum, and a few select electricians.


Well yeah, but I try not to tell apprentices that what they just did was a ****ing waste of time.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I'd never say that to a 1st year that's never made up a panel before.


eckhmm...2nd year...eckhmm...:laughing:

thanks


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> So is $4 gasoline, what's your point?
> 
> I take pride in my work too, but at the end of the day *nobody gives a **** about a perfect looking panel(s)* except here, MH forum, and a few select electricians.


I disagree. I obviously give a asterisk(S) because I always stand behind what I do, whatever it is.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

wsntme said:


> I disagree. I obviously give a asterisk(S) because I always stand behind what I do, whatever it is.


Looks terrific, man. Greatest thing I've ever seen.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

nevermind.. i dont care

~Matt


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## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

can some one post a pic or a link for breaker ties. i tryed google and got "L.O.t.O."


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

Good to know some contractors still are cool with taking time to provide some good looking work. Nice job, clean work.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

wsntme said:


> eckhmm...2nd year...eckhmm...:laughing:
> 
> thanks


:laughing: Yeah I guess 1.5 years would be second year, oops.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I use wire scraps as a means to bundle conductors in a panel also, but I have often wondered if I might be turning this wire coil into an induction heater? I guess I could try an experiment some day, but maybe someone knows?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> ...but maybe someone knows?


I don't, but I'm interested. I see an experiment in my future tomorrow.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

No worries as long as you keep the insulation on the wire you twist around the bundle. With the insulation intact you won't have a shorted turn transformer AKA induction heater. Also consider you would have zero net induction if the currents in the bundle cancelled.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

EJPHI said:


> Also consider you would have zero net induction if the currents in the bundle cancelled.


That's what I though but I think I'm gonna experiment with it anyway :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Looks like you have 160 circuits fed from one 200 amp feed. Wow- or am I seeing that wrong. Looks like feed thru panel al the way with 40 cir. per panel.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

That is very nice, indeed. I hope your 100th looks as nice.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

tkb said:


> It looks like you have MWBC's there and they are all single pole circuit breakers.
> 
> 
> Violation of 210.4(B)


If he is on the '05 cycle it is all good.


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## dieselram752 (Jan 23, 2008)

Your work is very nice.
I like the lift kit and mud tires on your cart:thumbup:


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## fondini (Dec 22, 2009)

That is great work!! I always make the neutrals label also, here we bundle the neutral in a split feed with the circuit hot leads also. Keep up the great work this trade needs more guys with your attitude!:thumbsup:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I like the panels. I give you an A. Just a little advice, you may not have the time in the future to build them like that. So you also need to work on your speed. It's no biggie at this point in your career. 

I prefer zip ties.

I am not aware when AZ adopted the 08. But, most likely this project is being built using the 05 code. Handle ties are not required, unless part of the spec book or an addendum.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Looks like you have 160 circuits fed from one 200 amp feed. Wow- or am I seeing that wrong. Looks like feed thru panel al the way with 40 cir. per panel.



I never looked to see what size the main breaker is.... I can take a look on Monday. It's not quite 160 Circuits. Actually goes to 138 if I remember correctly.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

Mike in Canada said:


> That is very nice, indeed. I hope your 100th looks as nice.


I hope so too! I don't want to turn into a lazy guy that doesn't give an eff.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> I like the panels. I give you an A. Just a little advice, you may not have the time in the future to build them like that. So you also need to work on your speed. It's no biggie at this point in your career.
> 
> I prefer zip ties.
> 
> I am not aware when AZ adopted the 08. But, most likely this project is being built using the 05 code. Handle ties are not required, unless part of the spec book or an addendum.


I understand what you are saying about the speed issue. I've got a few more panels on my plate for this job so I'm going to practice balancing speed and presentation :thumbsup:.

If I adopt the ty wrap way then it will speed me up for sure, may just do it.

Pretty sure AZ by large is using 05 but this project is speced out to use breaker ties on all circuits sharing a neutral....so it will be done.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

dieselram752 said:


> Your work is very nice.
> I like the lift kit and mud tires on your cart:thumbup:


Thanks! FYI the wheels are from Harbor Freight....china cheap but still kinda pricey (55 total). They work perfect. I did need to add a bit of Slime to each tire for the occasional screw or whatever I run over.

Here's how the hitch stores on the cart while not hooked to the back of my 4runner. With this I have the ability to attach the cart to any 2" receiver for transit purposes. :thumbup:


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So is $4 gasoline, what's your point?
> 
> I take pride in my work too, but at the end of the day nobody gives a **** about a perfect looking panel(s) except here, MH forum, and a few select electricians.


I would strongly disagree with you there. I have gained new customers and a lot of repeat business often based on neat quality workmanship.

I did a remodel on a "camp" a few years back, new service done nice and neat. The homeowner saw the panel with the cover off and said with a smile "so that's what it's supposed to look like?"

He asked me to do some work at the commecial buildings he owns and I've done several thousands of dollars worth of work for his company ever since. Some regular people* do* recognize extra effort.

My point is, one neat panel, (not NASA neat either, it was similar to the OP's work) has earned me ALOT of future business.

Why rip on guy who's just starting out anyway? Probably a bigger service than you'll ever touch.


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## florida journeyman (Feb 26, 2011)

panels look great, how long did it take you, I like tie wraps better, but they dont always buy them for us.


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## wsntme (Feb 23, 2011)

florida journeyman said:


> panels look great, how long did it take you, I like tie wraps better, but they dont always buy them for us.



Previously Posted;



wsntme said:


> Well, being my first time I don't think it went as fast as it could have. Also, since the guys pulling wire grossly over estimated (better than short) the length from pullbox to panel I was left sorting through no less than 15 ft of EXTRA wire just to get to the number. As you can see from the first pic, it was a huge mess! To top it off, they were still pulling this panel as I was landing it, which was necessary just to get the wire that had been pulled in, out of the way.
> 
> All that being said, *it took me just over two days* to terminate, label, beautify.



:thumbup:


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## d-fi (Feb 21, 2011)

Thats great looking work, hope mine looks just as good when i take on my first panel in the near future.

Great looking work that works is a major reason our company gets and keeps GC's/Builders we have. Even when they go wandering and try out some other electricians to save a few bucks they almost always come back.

Another advantage of great looking work is that once an Inspector see's it they tend to be far less rigorous on their inspection. Have a quick walk around sign us off and go. 

A friend of mine works for another company where speed is job 1 they get stuff done fast but it looks like crap and when the inspector shows up they tend to turn over every rock to find the tinniest of infractions. 

Some people still care about quality work


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

You did a nice job. It's nice when you see a panel like this. You know somebody takes pride in the job they do. Keep it up


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Ima Hack said:


> I would strongly disagree with you there. I have gained new customers and a lot of repeat business often based on neat quality workmanship.
> 
> I did a remodel on a "camp" a few years back, new service done nice and neat. The homeowner saw the panel with the cover off and said with a smile "so that's what it's supposed to look like?"
> 
> ...



So true!
Opened up 2 panels and the customer was NOT impressed with what he saw. (3rd panel was the original and never touched - sorry no pics but was nicely laced)
Told him the only way I would touch the job was that cleaning up the mess was done too. Got the job

BTW over the years 5 different (6 now) electrical contractors have worked on this car wash. Last one had an entire row of lights fall down 2 weeks after he installed them


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## wishmaster68 (Aug 27, 2009)

Being on the maintenance end I really love to see work from contractors like that. Makes my job easier when we have to add or repair. Keep up the good work. I think I would rather pay a few bucks more to have all my panels look like that.


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