# Service Upgrade



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I did this one last week.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

A few more pics.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jalousie windows......... in _Pennsylvania_? 

Maybe I'm blind, or I can't see it, but where's the GECs?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Why is the service conduit so ****ty?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Why is the service conduit so ****ty?



What service conduit?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Nice Job Red.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What service conduit?


What's that garbage going in and out of the meter? Never seen that before.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Jalousie windows......... in _Pennsylvania_?
> 
> Maybe I'm blind, or I can't see it, but where's the GECs?


Oh no! I forgot them, not! They are there.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> What's that garbage going in and out of the meter? Never seen that before.










​


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BIGRED said:


> Oh no! I forgot them, not! They are there.



The GEC, or the windows? :laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> ​


Never seen that in Canada, ****ing weird.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Never seen that in Canada, ****ing weird.



Not sure if there's a CEC equivilant to NEC 338.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

jza said:


> Never seen that in Canada, ****ing weird.


 I have never seen it in Canada either, and I sincerely hope I never will.

Conduit looks so much better.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> Conduit looks so much better.


I agree, sometimes. 
There are also times when SEU looks just as good and does JUST as good a job as conduit. And it is much easier and cheaper.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What a job LOOKS like has NO BEARING on whether it is SAFE.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jza said:


> Never seen that in Canada, ****ing weird.


I agree, Canada is weird. :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Conduit looks so much better.


Only to a bunch of snooty electricians. To the rest of the world it's who gives a crap.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Only to a bunch of snooty electricians. To the rest of the world it's who gives a crap.


 I guess I must be a member of the SNOOTY ELECTRICIANS GUILD. (The S. E .G )

ARE THERE ANY OTHER MEMBERS ? :laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Maybe, the name should be... Loyal Order of Snooty Electricians Regd. or

(L.O.S.E.R.S.) :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> I guess I must be a member of the SNOOTY ELECTRICIANS GUILD. (The S. E .G )
> 
> ARE THERE ANY OTHER MEMBERS ? :laughing:



No thanks. I'm already a Charter Member of the TEA.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Only to a bunch of snooty electricians. To the rest of the world it's who gives a crap.


You take your ****ing disgusting sloppy wire and I'll take my PVC conduit, any day of the week.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jza said:


> You take your ****ing disgusting sloppy wire and I'll take my PVC conduit, any day of the week.


Point proven. What else do I have to say.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> I have never seen it in Canada either, and I sincerely hope I never will.
> 
> Conduit looks so much better.


I chose to use SE on my own home as it looks better, hides better and works just as well.

Conduit belongs on industrial buildings, not homes. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> You take your ****ing disgusting sloppy wire and I'll take my PVC conduit, any day of the week.



PVC for a service riser????


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Just once in my life I'd like to use pvc _or_ ser for an overhead service.

Guess I'd have to move to canada or the east coast for that.

Around here we're required to use rmc or imc. I do sometimes use emt for an aerial feeder for a detached building, which is nice.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> ............Around here we're required to use rmc or imc. .....


Even when it's not used for a POA?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

When _not_ used as a poa?

haha.

Yes, they let us get away with cat-5.
:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> When _not_ used as a poa?
> 
> haha.
> 
> ...


I'm cornfused now. You must use IMC or RMC even when it's not the POA?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

At least they put a weatherhead on their service cable


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm cornfused now. You must use IMC or RMC even when it's not the POA?


You're confusing me as well. Or I'm too hungover. Describe a situation where said service would not be the POA as well?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Just once in my life I'd like to use pvc _or_ ser for an overhead service.
> 
> Guess I'd have to move to canada or the east coast for that.
> 
> Around here we're required to use rmc or imc. I do sometimes use emt for an aerial feeder for a detached building, which is nice.


You can use SE and SET in CA, I've talked to inspectors about it, problem is most of our services go through the roof, requiring them to be in conduit. WE mostly install service mast not risers in CA.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> You can use SE and SET in CA, I've talked to inspectors about it, problem is most of our services go through the roof, requiring them to be in conduit. WE mostly install service mast not risers in CA.


I know for a fact that pg&e won't allow ser as a riser for a residence. The only time i ever see it used (or pvc) is for city or town owned services. Pump stations and the like.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Nice job. I had to run SE pn a rental house a few months ago. It looks like crap but the customer got what he wanted.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> You're confusing me as well. Or I'm too hungover. Describe a situation where said service would not be the POA as well?































EMT, run next to an eyebolt.​


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Point proven. What else do I have to say.


You can keep you economy that's in a dump too.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Real nice looking service Big Red. The cable on the load side of the meter could be straighter and better secured in my opinion and the ground block from my experience is better suited on the exterior. But hey what do I know? 

Nice job.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> EMT, run next to an eyebolt.​


Okay, I get what you're saying now. 

Yes, that riser could not be run in emt. If it was a feeder it could be, but not as a service.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Okay, I get what you're saying now.
> 
> Yes, that riser could not be run in emt. If it was a feeder it could be, but not as a service.


So EMT cannot be used on a service where you are? What's the reason for that?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So EMT cannot be used on a service where you are? What's the reason for that?


Are you asking me if EMT can be used as a service in my area?
:whistling2:
:laughing:

No, it can not.

I don't have an answer as to why it can't, the poco must have a reason for it. 
I guess they think emt sucks.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I had an Edison guy tell me that se cable was prohibited as well, but when I asked him to prove it he could not and said I guess it is legal I've just never seen or heard of it before.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jza said:


> You can keep you economy that's in a dump too.


Ohhhh 

And you can keep that barren wasteland you call home.:laughing:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Ohhhh
> 
> And you can keep that barren wasteland you call home.:laughing:



Not a problem! How's your dollar doing? What's it like being owned by China?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jza said:


> Not a problem! How's your dollar doing? What's it like being owned by China?



Dude, get real, there is nothing you can say. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Are you asking me if EMT can be used as a service in my area?
> :whistling2:
> :laughing:
> 
> ...


Too bad everyone has to spend extra money on a service just because one person wants to force his 'been doing it that way since I started in the trade' method on them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Some beach areas will not allow PVC riser on a temp. pole. I did a house for a friend on Pawley's Island in SC and got turned down by the poco for a PVC riser. I had to use rmc. They wouldn't even allow emt. So forget about se cable there. 

I know Bob likes se cable but frankly I would rather use PVC but that is just my opinion and it just on aesthetics. NEC will allow either one.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Seems as though in the area's that SEU is not allowed that using EMT must be a nightmare and not very attractive on some jobs. I have found that SEU is very easy to work with, can be hidden fairly easy and is by far cheaper. I have worked on homes that the SEU dropped out of the meter socket a couple feet, turned 90deg and ran along the bottom of the home, around the corner continueing along the wall to the other end and then going through the bottom plate into the basement to the panel. No way is EMT going to look pretty doing that no less going to be cheap or done quickly.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

i dont use it inless i have to....Just not a fan of it...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

We can run SE as long as it's not subject to physical damage like in a driveway, or within 36" of a sidewalk, for example. I personally think it's **** but that's what some people prefer over the Grey Poupon sometimes.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I chose to use SE on my own home as it looks better, hides better and works just as well.
> 
> *Conduit belongs on industrial buildings, not homes.* :thumbsup:


Unless it's an in-wall service riser. :whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Unless it's an in-wall service riser. :whistling2:


Yeah those Californians have some strange customs.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Real nice looking service Big Red. The cable on the load side of the meter could be straighter and better secured in my opinion and the ground block from my experience is better suited on the exterior. But hey what do I know?
> 
> Nice job.


When you're drilling anchor holes into limestone with high iron content like he has there, you just feel lucky to get a screw in wherever you can. Often, you sacrifice a truly plumb installation for a secure installation.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

jza said:


> Not a problem! How's your dollar doing? What's it like being owned by China?


All I hear are Bob and Doug Mckenzie talking when jza posts. Hoser.:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ima Hack said:


> All I hear are Bob and Doug Mckenzie talking when jza posts. Hoser.


:laughing::lol::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jza said:


> Not a problem!


JZA is french canadian. Don't judge other canadians by him.... :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Only to a bunch of snooty electricians. To the rest of the world it's who gives a crap.


no pipe=less money


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> JZA is french canadian.


That would explain his anger at the world..........:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> EMT, run next to an eyebolt.​


 nice work sparky


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey Red.,

That look pretty good but only thing it kinda quirk moi is the skinny 200 amp meter socket I know majtory of Wisconsin POCO do not allow that one.

Merci.
Marc


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Real nice looking service Big Red. The cable on the load side of the meter could be straighter and better secured in my opinion and the ground block from my experience is better suited on the exterior. But hey what do I know?
> 
> Nice job.


Yeah, I know that is crooked and it pisses me off, I was going to state that on the picture. All of the cable grounds are inside, that is why I put it there.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> no pipe=less money


How so and how does it change the fact or have anything to do with what I said?


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Hey Red.,
> 
> That look pretty good but only thing it kinda quirk moi is the skinny 200 amp meter socket I know majtory of Wisconsin POCO do not allow that one.
> 
> ...


That meter socket is PECO (Phila. Electric Co.) approved.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> nice work sparky


Except for that extra hole in the siding up at the top. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Hey Red.,
> 
> That look pretty good but only thing it kinda quirk moi is the skinny 200 amp meter socket I know majtory of Wisconsin POCO do not allow that one.
> 
> ...



The only reason it's so thin is it's for overhead services _only_. It would not be allowed to be fed from the bottom.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Our Poco only permits Se cable to be sleeved under 8' off grade when used. I prefer complete pvc services, when getting to the panel is a PITA, I'll run a SE tailpiece out or a 2" SE conn and 2" female adapter in basement out to LB and up to meter. I 've seen too many water issues with the use of SE cable.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Except for that extra hole in the siding up at the top. :whistling2:


Good eye... I would have a least put a little caulking on that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Ima Hack said:


> Good eye... I would have a least put a little caulking on that.


 You gotta look hard to nail Ken...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The only reason it's so thin is it's for overhead services _only_. It would not be allowed to be fed from the bottom.


I agree an underground meter base would be wider.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You gotta look hard to nail Ken...


I'm surprised he didn't Photoshop out of the picture before posting it. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ima Hack said:


> I'm surprised he didn't Photoshop out of the picture before posting it. :icon_cheesygrin:


Not my pictures, so I didn't have anything to Photoshop. :thumbsup:


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

Nothing wrong with SE. Easy to work with, it's never going rust like emt, cheaper and quicker than PVC means more profit for installer. BIGRED did a nice neat job cutting in that panel, only complaint is where is the panel GFI? Your customer invested good money on this system and it needs that cherry on top of the cake.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> ..., only complaint is where is the panel GFI?


What's a panel GFI?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> What's a panel GFI?


That's one of those things electricians and inspectors here in Mass mistakenly _think_ are required on a service change.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> What's a panel GFI?


Sorry, I meant a GFCI convenience plug located right next to the panel. I usually use a 1/2" offset nipple connected to a 4" sq. box and install a GFI plug there.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> That's one of those things electricians and inspectors here in Mass mistakenly _think_ are required on a service change.


I did refer to it as "cherry on the cake". More often than not this is a much needed plug and satisfies 210.52 (G)


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## hbiss (Mar 1, 2008)

Around here the point of attachment for the service drop has to be below the weather head like 480 has in his picture. Doesn't matter if it's on the rakes or on a wall.

-Hal


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> That's one of those things electricians and inspectors here in Mass mistakenly _think_ are required on a service change.


 


No mistake in my home town. Local Amendment. At least one GFI at service.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> Sorry, I meant a GFCI convenience plug located right next to the panel. I usually use a 1/2" offset nipple connected to a 4" sq. box and install a GFI plug there.



A lot of service upgrades I do are in homes that don't have a laundry, but the NEC in it's infinite wisdom requires a laundry circuit, so I do just that and call it the laundry circuit.


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## RobT1221 (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow looks good. But I have never seen SEU before. Usually I've done conduit up to a weather head. But hey new things are good. So right on. Is running SEU cheaper then conduit and wire?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Honestly I don't know why electricians spend hours making the inside of panel so perfect. Looks nice but is it necesary and does anyone besides us care.. I'd rather spend the time putting in a service mast vs. just strapping SER up.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> Honestly I don't know why electricians spend hours making the inside of panel so perfect. Looks nice but is it necesary and does anyone besides us care.. I'd rather spend the time putting in a service mast vs. just strapping SER up.


It does NOT take me ANY longer to make the inside of a new panel look nice as opposed to sh*tty.
I'll take nice over sh*tty any day, and I can sleep better.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> It does NOT take me ANY longer to make the inside of a new panel look nice as opposed to sh*tty.


Same here.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> It does NOT take me ANY longer to make the inside of a new panel look nice as opposed to sh*tty.
> I'll take nice over sh*tty any day, and I can sleep better.



There's a world of difference between 'nice' and 'perfect'. _Perfect_ is a waste of time. Unless it's going on the cover of ECMag, _Nice_ works just fine.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> It does NOT take me ANY longer to make the inside of a new panel look nice as opposed to sh*tty.
> I'll take nice over sh*tty any day, and I can sleep better.


Actually there is nice enough, then there is spending extra time bending the wires perfectly. You can claim that but I've watched guys spend hours on what can only be described as piano building. Then I watch the same guys make up a junction box like it's a rats nest.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

RobT1221 said:


> Wow looks good. But I have never seen SEU before. Usually I've done conduit up to a weather head. But hey new things are good. So right on. Is running SEU cheaper then conduit and wire?


I would think running SEU to be cheaper and faster then GRC or EMT, but I'd look in Xcel's Blue Book before using SEU. Xcel will not allow it, in Colorado anyway.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> What's a panel GFI?





electricmanscott said:


> That's one of those things electricians and inspectors here in Mass mistakenly _think_ are required on a service change.





elecpatsfan said:


> More often than not this is a much needed plug and satisfies 210.52 (G)



What does 210.52 have to do with a service change?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> There's a world of difference between 'nice' and 'perfect'. _Perfect_ is a waste of time. Unless it's going on the cover of ECMag, _Nice_ works just fine.


This is exactly my point. :thumbsup:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

where are the ground rods


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> What does 210.52 have to do with a service change?


I didn't say it was required, I said it was usually much needed. This plug satisfies 210.52, I think it's a good idea, but I never said it was required for a service. Your customers are dropping 2 grand for a new system, and not installing a panel GFI plug is "cheaping out" IMO.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

jza said:


> Never seen that in Canada, ****ing weird.


Never seen that here in Texas either. First time I went to N.Y. to the inlaws, I seen that and thought WHAT THE HELL!?!?!?!!?


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> where are the ground rods


In the _ground_, I would expect. 

I would like to know why the intersystem bonding block was mounted inside of the house? We are required to mount that thing _outside_, where the other utilities can have ready access to it ....


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

elecpatsfan said:


> I didn't say it was required, I said it was usually much needed. This plug satisfies 210.52, I think it's a good idea, but I never said it was required for a service. Your customers are dropping 2 grand for a new system, and not installing a panel GFI plug is "cheaping out" IMO.


You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying 210.52 has no bearing on a service change whatsoever.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> I would like to know why the intersystem bonding block was mounted inside of the house? We are required to mount that thing _outside_, where the other utilities can have ready access to it ....


The NEC does not require it to be outside. 

Also, in an existing building you are not required to install one if a means to bond other systems already exists.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> I didn't say it was required, I said it was usually much needed. This plug satisfies 210.52, I think it's a good idea, but I never said it was required for a service. Your customers are dropping 2 grand for a new system, and not installing a panel GFI plug is "cheaping out" IMO.




Ok, we'll take the cost of the materials out of your check and have you go back and install it over the weekend, or after work on your own time. Still think we're the one's "cheaping out"?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> Yeah, I know that is crooked and it pisses me off, I was going to state that on the picture. All of the cable grounds are inside, that is why I put it there.


Nice work BIGRED, I wasn't dogging on your install. I think it looks good. Customer probably thinks it's the best thing he's ever seen. We always scrutinize our work more than the customer. 

I prefer a conduit riser myself but if running SER was the difference between getting and not getting the job I'm a SER man.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> Sorry, I meant a GFCI convenience plug located right next to the panel. I usually use a 1/2" offset nipple connected to a 4" sq. box and install a GFI plug there.


That's extra.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

The installtion looks great, only because that's how it's done there.

I still think that exposed SE service conductors is third world quality.

For all the crap we get about workmanship in AZ, at least we protect out unfused/unprotected wiring in IMC.

You don't think that some kid playing around could hack into that cable? You don't think that someone cutting shrubs could hack into that cable?
You don't think that having an *unfused* wires connected directly to the power lines, inside your walls/attic/basement is a little hinkey?


People whine about how many cables can go through a hole or under a staple when there is this kind of hackery allowed by the NEC?? :jester:

The thing I DO like about it is, it's my favorite example of how the NEC isn't always right.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

220/221 said:


> I still think that exposed SE service conductors is third world quality.
> 
> For all the crap we get about workmanship in AZ, at least we protect out unfused/unprotected wiring in IMC.
> 
> ...


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

EJPHI said:


> 220/221 said:
> 
> 
> > I still think that exposed SE service conductors is third world quality.
> ...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

220/221 said:


> The installtion looks great, only because that's how it's done there.
> 
> I still think that exposed SE service conductors is third world quality.
> 
> ...




The problem with your argument is that the facts actually back up the opposing view.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I dont even think its possable to mount pvc to that wall. Its impossable to drill in and its wavy as all hell. Its like mounting a pipe on the side of a cliff. SE works and its legal. I prefer Rigid too but here on that house I would have done the same thing and hope it looked that straight.

Looks good Red. :thumbsup: FTW


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I know people that could drill and some that have drilled through GRC. It's not totally idiot proof, just idiot resistant. If I looked at that job I would pick cable over conduit without a second thought.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> The problem with your argument is that the facts actually back up the opposing view.


Maybe you could list those facts for me. Show me how it is safe. Most POCO's have strict regulations (like height) on the installation of their power lines, even the secondary ones. Does the wire magically become more safe when it transitions to PVC jacketed cable?

I think you guys think it's safe and acceptable just because you have seen it that way forever. It aint safe. There is no protection on that cable, physical or overcurrent, except for the fuse link on the high side of the transformer, right? How can that be safe?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Maybe you could list those facts for me. Show me how it is safe. Most POCO's have strict regulations (like height) on the installation of their power lines, even the secondary ones. Does the wire magically become more safe when it transitions to PVC jacketed cable?
> 
> I think you guys think it's safe and acceptable just because you have seen it that way forever.


 Yeah, exactly. 



220/221 said:


> It aint safe. There is no protection on that cable, physical or overcurrent, except for the fuse link on the high side of the transformer, right? How can that be safe?


How about this, YOU prove to me that it is NOT safe. The countless number of homes wired with SE cable shows you are dead wrong.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I've seen a 400 amp service conductors burn right thru the aluminum rigid sweeps during an electrical fire in the service equipment room started by the aluminum sub feeds.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Plus, you get to do stuff like this with cable....:thumbup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I think you guys think it's safe and acceptable just because you have seen it that way forever.


Exactly, we have lived with it all our lives it and do not see the smoldering ruins you imagine. How much first hand experience do you have with it? 



> It aint safe. There is no protection on that cable, physical or overcurrent, except for the fuse link on the high side of the transformer, right? How can that be safe?


Here are service conductors in RMC, did the RMC make things safe?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> ...did the RMC make things safe?


I'd say all it did there is melt and go all over the block wall.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

OUCH!!!

How did that happen??


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

EJPHI said:


> OUCH!!!
> 
> How did that happen??


I know the answer as I saw this on the other site and Bob was kind enough to share the tale by PM. It is up to Bob if he wants to share the story......

As for the relative safety of RMC vs. SE/SER Bob and I have had a lively public debate over on MH, and I have to say that in the end I think we are both right in our positions on the subject. 

It is all a matter of regional requirements/practices, and there are very valid arguments on both sides of the fence. 

The main thing to remember is that service conductors ARE unfused, and you cannot rely on the POCO transformer fuse to stop the carnage. POCO fuses are sized only to remove a failed transformer from the system, hopefully before it explodes, but not to protect the tx from overloads. 

A fault such as this one looks to the POCO fuses as a small overload.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mxslick said:


> The main thing to remember is that service conductors ARE unfused, and you cannot rely on the POCO transformer fuse to stop the carnage. POCO fuses are sized only to remove a failed transformer from the system, hopefully before it explodes, but not to protect the tx from overloads.


I agree 100% and in this case the condutor size stayed the same all the way back to a pad mount. At more typical service the overhead drop is downsized and in many case will melt out before the condutors on the struture. 



> A fault such as this one looks to the POCO fuses as a small overload.


I agree again, it is my understanding that the fault above went on for quite some time before the transformer finally overheated to the point the primary shorted.

As far as the cause of this fault. I really do not know.

I do know that the conductors had been installed during very cold weather.

I also know that bullet holes where found all along the back of this building.

So I don't know if the conductors failed on their own due to poor installation practices or someone shot the large can starting a short that progressed for while.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I also know that bullet holes where found all along the back of this building.
> 
> So I don't know if the conductors failed on their own due to poor installation practices or someone shot the large can starting a short that progressed for while.


Why can't ******** just stick to using road signs as target practice? :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Why can't ******** just stick to using road signs as target practice? :laughing:


Imagine the satisfaction if it was a bullet hit. :whistling2: :jester:

My buddies that went to the call got to watch some security video of the fault and they said the sparks were pouring out for a long time with some good distance.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> How about this, YOU prove to me that it is NOT safe. The countless number of homes wired with SE cable shows you are dead wrong.


Countless homes were wired with K&T too. That doesn't make it safe.

Can a kid playing with a sharp object of some kind easily contact the wires?

Can a landscaper accidentally chop thru the plastic sheath with his clippers/pruners/weedeater?

Can a homeowner run a nail or screw into the unfused wiring?

I've seen tons of cable failures in houses due to many different circumstances and in most every case, the only thing that averted disaster was the simple circuit breaker.


I know that wires can fail inside conduit and I have also seen them burn right thru it. That's not the issue. 


I think it's hackery to exposed romex but at least it has some OCPD on it. Running exposed UNFUSED big ass romex is off the scale.





> It is all a matter of regional requirements/practices, and there are very valid arguments on both sides of the fence.


Is there *one* valid arguement for cable other than "it's cheaper"?

I'm all ears.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Does seem odd that the NEC has us babysit everyone with our installs. GFCI's everywhere. Pretty much whole house arc fault protection. Equipotential grids under a portable hot tub. The list goes on. But it allows unfused SER to run down the side of a house. Saves maybe 10-15 dollars in conduit?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Countless homes were wired with K&T too. That doesn't make it safe.


Actually properly fused, unmolested K&T is one of the safest wiring methods. 



> Can a kid playing with a sharp object of some kind easily contact the wires?
> 
> Can a landscaper accidentally chop thru the plastic sheath with his clippers/pruners/weedeater?
> 
> Can a homeowner run a nail or screw into the unfused wiring?


Sure all those things could happen ... but the fact is those things are not happening here as much as you are sure it is.




> I think it's hackery to exposed romex but at least it has some OCPD on it. Running exposed UNFUSED big ass romex is off the scale.


Then don't run it. :laughing:

But it is a joke that someone without any experience with SE on home thinks they know so much about it. :laughing:





> Is there *one* valid arguement for cable other than "it's cheaper"?



Yeah, for me there is.

I think neatly run SE looks better hides much better on the side of a home than conduit.

I used SE for my own home and it was not about the money, conduit would have been free, the copper SE I bought was not.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

This argument is still going on? How about this to chew on, most POCO's or at least here will run a pair of 1/0 through the air with an exposed neutral that is also unfused to power up that 4/0 SEU wire but i guess that is safer correct? Maybe the POCO should be hanging conduit from the weather head to the pole? The only downfall i see at all with SEU is if the sheathing becomes compromised then the aluminum neutral will begin to corrode over time.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Sure all those things could happen ... but the fact is those things are not happening here as much as you are sure it is.


I'm not sure that those things are happening with great frequency. I never alluded to that. My opinion is that *it would be very easy for those things to happen* and I'm not confident that you know anymore than I do about how often they do occur.






> Actually properly fused, unmolested K&T is one of the safest wiring methods.


WTF? What are you smoking? Was the KT method outlawed like 60 years ago because it was safe? You have lost all credibility.

*Best case*, properly fused, unmolested K&T may be adaquate for.....no, sorry. I can't even properly qualify a statement saying K&T is in anyway safe.




> But it is a joke that someone without any experience with SE on home thinks they know so much about it


I don't need to have experience jumping off a roof to realize the potential dangers involved. I've jumped enough in my life to obtain sufficient data to form a reasonably accurate opinion.


What more do I need to know? It's not rocket science. I know what it looks like, I know what it feels like and I know what the effects of a fault can be. I also know that it is A LOT more vulnerable than if it were in IMC and A LOT more dangerous than if it had some OCP.

If you saw a painter on a ladder, painting the service drop or the secondaries between poles, you would take a picture, post it and everybody would clown on him for being a dangerous fool. In a few years that painter will be painting the cable on your house. Maybe a couple layer of latex will help protect it :laughing:

SE = 3rd world work. :jester:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



> Does seem odd that the NEC has us babysit everyone with our installs. GFCI's everywhere. Pretty much whole house arc fault protection. Equipotential grids under a portable hot tub. The list goes on. But it allows unfused SER to run down the side of a house


Yep. Those arc fault/GFCI/tamper resistant protected circuits are powered by some "bare" unfused cable running into your house. GREAT idea.:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

:surrender: :wacko: ..........


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BIGRED said:


>


 
Run out of white tape did we?

Looks real nice.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Run out of white tape did we?


Or why waste ANY tape.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Run out of white tape did we?
> 
> Looks real nice.


Thanks Dink, I never use white tape on residential services, I have been useing black for 30 yrs., some guys don't even use tape.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> Thanks Dink, I never use white tape on residential services, I have been useing black for 30 yrs., some guys don't even use tape.



30 years of wasted tape. :thumbsup:

Why would I even think of using tape on something like that?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Why would you even use tape?...The neutral can be bare on the line side of the service.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Yea why would you tape that????


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Cause it's one notch better than the other guy, and it don't cost much to do.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Cause it's one notch better than the other guy, and it don't cost much to do.


:laughing:...Keep telling yourself that:laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Cause it's one notch better than the other guy, and it don't cost much to do.


 
That is ridiculous.You are just joking... Right?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Cause it's one notch better than the other guy, and it don't cost much to do.


At least waste white tape. :laughing:


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Why would you even use tape?...The neutral can be bare on the line side of the service.


I was learned dat' way.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> That is ridiculous.You are just joking... Right?


 
Na, I do a bunch of stuff that most of you would think is a waste.

Things like putting little labels on each recep, and making sure the labels are level and centered. I make up my own panel schedules on letter head and tape a clear sleeve on the panel cover, rather than trying to write on the one provided.

It just seperates me a little more, from the next guy.

People go for that kinda stuff.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> At least waste white tape. :laughing:


Right on, and if your going to take a picture of it for marketting, why not waste a little bit and make it look as cool and neat as possible.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

SouthwireRep said:


> Don't forget about us for all your SE needs.
> 
> http://www.southwire.com/residential/Aluminum-SE-Cable.htm


I buy whatever the supply house stocks...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I buy whatever the supply house stocks...


Me too. Cutler-Hammer BR all day. :thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Me too. Cutler-Hammer BR all day. :thumbsup:


Those are the brown handle ones , right?...How much more expensive are they than Siemens?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Those are the brown handle ones , right?...How much more expensive are they than Siemens?


No, the CH is the tan handle. The BR is the type similar to Siemens, GE and Homeline.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Good job.


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