# Bolt on breakers.



## TOOL_5150

Mcsparkin said:


> Is the fastening bolt on these breakers isolated from the bus? Is there any chance of shocking yourself if the main breaker is ON?


Its not isolated on any panels Ive seen. A simple continuity test will answer your question.


----------



## drsparky

Yes, you are bolting the contacts to the bus instead of relying on clips. Of course you can be shocked, if you do not know that you should not be in the panel.


----------



## Peewee0413

Test it. If not use gloves for 120


----------



## Big John

:confused1: The bolt is what connects the line side of the breaker to the bus. How would it be isolated...?


----------



## Peewee0413

Why would you work hot anyways...? Rumor has it that your not suppose to...lol


----------



## Pacific81

Personally I just use a 1000V insulated screw driver/bolt driver. I know of some people who use a combi drill with a 9/16th bolt driver as essentially the casing insulates it. You should always try to work dead, I always have to install breakers in a live board, just be careful, take your time and use a 1000V screwdriver/bolt driver.


----------



## Pete m.

Mcsparkin said:


> Whats the standard method if you are in a situation you cannot cut all power to panel before installing a new bolt on breaker?


The "standard" method is to remove ALL power. 

That doesn't always work in the real world but go ahead and give OSHA an excuse... 

Pete


----------



## ponyboy

Put some 33 on your square drive and get in there


----------



## Peewee0413

Ya I choose 33 on allen wrenches, while working 277 for some reason.. not smart, but physics says it wont bite me.


----------



## JmanAllen

Mcsparkin said:


> Whats the standard method if you are in a situation you cannot cut all power to panel before installing a new bolt on breaker?


Man up and just do it.


----------



## macmikeman

Have the new guy do it..........................:no:


----------



## Peewee0413

Doesn't nfpa 70e say must be life or death to, or completely not avoidable? Something like that. Ive never been in a situation power could not be shut off. It happens just not normal everyday work.


----------



## BBQ

Mcsparkin said:


> Whats the standard method if you are in a situation you cannot cut all power to panel before installing a new bolt on breaker?


You schedule a time you can shut it down.

A shock is the least of your worries, dropping a screw and shorting out the panel bus can make you look like Freddie Krueger.

And even if you come out of it fine the panel will have shut down and might need replacement.


----------



## BBQ

Peewee0413 said:


> Ya I choose 33 on allen wrenches, while working 277 for some reason.. not smart, but physics says it wont bite me.


Do you have any clue what an arc flash can do to you?

To each their own but they don't pay me enough to spend time in a burn ward.


----------



## Spark Master

You mean you broke the law, and brag about it on the internet. 

Or here's a better one.

You broke the law by playing with live electricity, but the property owner is responsible because he didn't put an arc-flash sticker on the box. :laughing:

But yet, you're are the licensed professional. :thumbup:

70E sounds like an obama law.


----------



## ponyboy

Spark Master said:


> You mean you broke the law, and brag about it on the internet.
> 
> Or here's a better one.
> 
> You broke the law by playing with live electricity, but the property owner is responsible because he didn't put an arc-flash sticker on the box. :laughing:
> 
> But yet, you're are the licensed professional. :thumbup:
> 
> 70E sounds like an obama law.


settle down there shirley or were gonna call your mom to come get you


----------



## Peewee0413

Ha I would almost bet half the people on this site breaks 70e in some way. Shouldn't you wear protective gear, to verify voltage/no voltage.


----------



## Peewee0413

Its a dumb risk some take.


----------



## JmanAllen

Peewee0413 said:


> Ha I would almost bet half the people on this site breaks 70e in some way. Shouldn't you wear protective gear, to verify voltage/no voltage.


On some stuff it's just a complete waste of time. The lawyers just sitting around trying to cover asses. Any one with a journeyman card should be able to figure out if its something they need protection on.


----------



## Peewee0413

I agree some is overkill, but face the fact. You follow the obnoxious rules you'll never get bit.


----------



## ponyboy

Peewee0413 said:


> I agree some is overkill, but face the fact. You follow the obnoxious rules you'll never get bit.


And if I shut down every panel I had to work in at my plant I'd either be fired or working 20 hour Sundays


----------



## Spark Master

Peewee0413 said:


> Ha I would almost bet half the people on this site breaks 70e in some way. Shouldn't you wear protective gear, to verify voltage/no voltage.


1/2 ???
I'd gather it's more like 99%. Maybe except the big time industrial guys.

But the same law applies to residential work.


----------



## Spark Master

Peewee0413 said:


> Ha I would almost bet half the people on this site breaks 70e in some way. Shouldn't you wear protective gear, to verify voltage/no voltage.


1/2 ???
I'd gather it's more like 99%. Maybe except the big time industrial guys.

But the same law applies to residential work. So the next time your playing in a residential panel..... call the poco, and ask to be disconnected before you open the panel cover.


----------



## ponyboy

Spark Master said:


> But the same law applies to residential work. So the next time your playing in a residential panel..... call the poco, and ask to be disconnected before you open the panel cover.


You're kidding right?


----------



## BBQ

ponyboy said:


> You're kidding right?


That is what OSHA and 70E require. 

Fines can be $70,000.


----------



## ponyboy

BBQ said:


> That is what OSHA and 70E require.
> 
> Fines can be $70,000.


Hows he going to troubleshoot when the meters pulled


----------



## BBQ

ponyboy said:


> Hows he going to troubleshoot when the meters pulled


You are correct there are allowances for troubleshooting.

None for repairs. Bolting a new breaker in place is not troubleshooting.

Look, I am not saying I am an angel myself, just pointing out the rules.

_IF_ an employee gets caught the fines could be a huge problem for a small company.


----------



## EBFD6

BBQ said:


> That is what OSHA and 70E require.
> 
> Fines can be $70,000.


Which is why they can't be taken seriously. 

If the rules were reasonable and based on real world situations maybe more people would follow them. The rules are so overboard and ridiculous that most of us choose to ignore them completely and just do what we want.


----------



## BBQ

EBFD6 said:


> Which is why they can't be taken seriously.



They can be taken seriously if guys like you and me simply took them seriously. 

There is no reason that we have to work hot other than laziness and money.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Look, I am not saying I am an angel myself, just pointing out the rules.
> 
> .


 
thread tune!




 
~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> thread tune!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Would you like me to show you my tattoo?


----------



## chicken steve

EBFD6 said:


> Which is why they can't be taken seriously.
> 
> If the rules were reasonable and based on real world situations maybe more people would follow them. The rules are so overboard and ridiculous that most of us choose to ignore them completely and just do what we want.


I call them ivory tower laws , they exist for good reason, but their implementation across the board is almost impossible to meet

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> Would you like me to show you my tattoo?


i'd be afraid of the Norm & Cliff Cheers finale' manifesting BBQ.....~CS~


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> I call them ivory tower laws , they exist for good reason, but their implementation across the board is almost impossible to meet


And most of the time whose fault is that Steve?

A great many times its our fault. The guys in the field that have been given the tools and the training but still choose to work hot because they are too lazy to do it any other way.

I can tell you that a large number of corporate customers will no longer turn a blind eye to hot work. They are forcing subs to follow the rules to the letter or be tossed to the side.

That may not be the case at all where you are but I see it more and more in my area.


----------



## chicken steve

well i'm not going to argue that with you BBQ

i'm glad to see some change occur, having been nearly blinded by arcs in the past, not to mention all the chances i've taken for a $$$

so guilty as charged ....my fellow...eruhm...._angel_

so, what is the nfpa70E page they have to sign?

oh and, i've gotta fairly new 12 cal suit....and there's a right $$ for it

cheers!










~CS~


----------



## Peewee0413

70 e is just a CYA thing for companies. No real company where production pays, will keep a guy who shuts them down every time there is a minor problem.


----------



## BBQ

Peewee0413 said:


> 70 e is just a CYA thing for companies. No real company where production pays, will keep a guy who shuts them down every time there is a minor problem.


I was not aware that Johnson and Johnson was not a real company.

They will not allow any hot work, none at all. At least at their production facilities in my area.



Check this out and consider if your pay is worth it.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/burn_examples.html


----------



## Wirenuting

Peewee0413 said:


> 70 e is just a CYA thing for companies. No real company where production pays, will keep a guy who shuts them down every time there is a minor problem.


A lineman once explained it to me this way 

First it cauterized my a$$€hole
Then it burned my sac off.
Next I woke up in a burn unit. 
Several months later I was fitted with my first prosthetic hand. 

He then explained that the $$$ received from the lawsuit wasn't worth the pain. The company went bankrupt.


----------



## xlink

I put a breaker into a panel in a oil facility. The panel had to be shut down at it's source. Then, because there is no reason to take any chances, they did a general plant shut-down and locked out the main switch feeding the whole plant.

Why didn't they shut down the entire city so I would be really really safe? It's impossible to regulate common sense, so the regulations get weird. The risk in shutting down the main switch undoubtedly was greater than the chance the switch feeding the panel would magically re-energize.

I think it's clear that lowering the speed limit to about 10 mph would virtually eliminate highway deaths. I guess we actually are willing to sacrifice a few limbs and lives to save time.


----------



## Zog

You guys kill me with your "real world" crap. You want real world, go visit the closest burn unit to you, ask those guys what is "real". Then ask the burn unit admin how many people are in the unit, they are usually full and often with a waiting list. I have been there, as are 2,000 arc flash victims each year. 

Go visit one, I dare you. 

The people that think the 70E rules are overkill are the people that do not understand what the rules are, either because they have never been trained or have had poor training that teaches you to suit up in a 40cal suit to do anything.


----------



## drumnut08

Zog said:


> You guys kill me with your "real world" crap. You want real world, go visit the closest burn unit to you, ask those guys what is "real". Then ask the burn unit admin how many people are in the unit, they are usually full and often with a waiting list. I have been there, as are 2,000 arc flash victims each year.
> 
> Go visit one, I dare you.
> 
> The people that think the 70E rules are overkill are the people that do not understand what the rules are, either because they have never been trained or have had poor training that teaches you to suit up in a 40cal suit to do anything.


Very well put ZOG ! Unfortunately some people are more inclined to think " that will never happen to me , because I know what I'm doing and I'm that good ! " they're usually the ones who find out the hard way . Sure , it slows you down and seems like overkill , but at the end of the day , you'll go home being able to see with all your appendages intact .


----------



## wildleg

chicken steve said:


> well i'm not going to argue that with you BBQ
> 
> i'm glad to see some change occur, having been nearly blinded by arcs in the past, not to mention all the chances i've taken for a $$$
> 
> so guilty as charged ....my fellow...eruhm...._angel_
> 
> so, what is the nfpa70E page they have to sign?
> 
> oh and, i've gotta fairly new 12 cal suit....and there's a right $$ for it
> 
> cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


nice makeup


----------



## chicken steve

Zog said:


> You guys kill me with your "real world" crap. You want real world, go visit the closest burn unit to you, ask those guys what is "real". Then ask the burn unit admin how many people are in the unit, they are usually full and often with a waiting list. I have been there, as are 2,000 arc flash victims each year.
> 
> Go visit one, I dare you.
> 
> 
> 
> The glasses you see me in are flash rated, the worst 5 minutes of my life not knowing weather i was permanently blind groping my way outta a switchgear room _(thank you crash door gear)_ were rather convincing
> 
> and that was _JUST_ turning a small 480V E-frame breaker on.....
> 
> I've been known to fall asleep with them btw....
> 
> Further, i've taken terminal burn victims for their last ride, you want to know what's _really_ eire about it?
> 
> their metabolism (fluid shift) hasn't got the better of them quite yet, they know exactly what's going on, and can articulate as well as anyone, but you're talkin' to a _dead man_!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The people that think the 70E rules are overkill are the people that do not understand what the rules are, either because they have never been trained or have had poor training that teaches you to suit up in a 40cal suit to do anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the term you want is_ revenue_ Zog.
> 
> Ask yourself this, how much does OSHA put toward educating us in 70E
> 
> At the risk of callousness, seems the more of us that end up in a burn unit or casket means the more funding these folks get
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## Big John

chicken steve said:


> ...Ask yourself this, how much does OSHA put toward educating us in 70E...?


 How much does your licensing board do to educate electricians?

It's not up to the enforcement arm; the onus is on the affected party to understand the rules that apply to them. There are a lot of courses available. I've been to a couple very in depth ones that were hosted at Batterymarch Park. You just have to be willing to pay for them. It's a cost of being in this business.


----------



## chicken steve

I just have a bit of a problem with the old _ignorance of the law_ is no excuse John

for the record, i had a Jman's card before i even_ knew_ 70E existed

i think i've come a long way since then, but none of these entities waving their doctrines frantically about helped 

imho, i'm worth more to them dead than safe, ergo my regard of them comes honestly

~CS~


----------



## BBQ

Wirenuting said:


> burned my sac off


Three words no one should have to string together.


----------



## chicken steve

hurts to read it....~CS~


----------



## xlink

If you walk along the edge, eventually you will fall. Some fall the first time and others fall the last time. If you haven't fallen yet, then you have the choice to quit before you fall.

I like the idea of never working live, but I don't know how to tell the customer they must shut down the floor because I need to change a breaker and still get called next time. Gloves and a shield seem like a reasonable compromise. At least I have them. Most electricians don't.


----------



## chicken steve

a lot of the PPE is false security, as well as occulding tactility, in grenade-like potentials X

~CS~


----------



## JmanAllen

BBQ said:


> Three words no one should have to string together.


That was 4 words


----------



## drsparky

I will not work hot, the pay scale involving death is way over my bosses check book balance.


----------



## Spark Master

xlink said:


> I think it's clear that lowering the speed limit to about 10 mph would virtually eliminate highway deaths. I guess we actually are willing to sacrifice a few limbs and lives to save time.


That is a great analogy. Just like we should ban alcohol, and eliminate the 40 drunk driving deaths every day. Although banning guns will not stop the criminals from obtaining guns.
Driving 10 MPH will certainly prevent deaths, but it also stops the job from getting done.
I feel the same way about 70E. There is a point where regulations prevent functionality. We would loose so much residential work if we were calling the poco 10 times a day. 
_Hey Mrs Johnson, I have to charge you 3 hours labor to sit here and wait for a lineman. Can you make me lunch and a cup of coffee while we wait._
The problem is there is no differentation betweens ZOG's heavy industrial work, and our 100 amp residential service. Yeah I'm sure ZOG will tell me to do an arc flash study. I wonder if any lawyer has been able to fight these fines ???


----------



## Zog

Spark Master said:


> The problem is there is no differentation betweens ZOG's heavy industrial work, and our 100 amp residential service.


Yes there is, a huge difference. Have you read the 70E?


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> a lot of the PPE is false security, as well as occulding tactility, in grenade-like potentials X
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah, you are right, people die who are wearing seatbelts, might as well not wear one.


----------



## chicken steve

Being aware one is not superman _with_ one would be more my point BBQ.....~CS~


----------



## Spark Master

Zog said:


> Yes there is, a huge difference. Have you read the 70E?


No, in school they taught us the illegal method with rubber mats on the floor.

Can you educate us all when it comes to a residential service. or even a chinese restaurant 208Y.


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> Being aware one is not superman _with_ one would be more my point BBQ.....~CS~


Maybe that is what you were thinking but it is not what came across in your post .... at least not to me.


----------



## macmikeman

Really all you need to do here to get convinced to turn off the power system and lock it out prior to working on it is to Google " Electrical burns" and then click the images tab. Warning: the pictures you will see are real graphic, and you might get nightmares tonight.


----------



## BBQ

Spark Master said:


> No, in school they taught us the illegal method with rubber mats on the floor.
> 
> Can you educate us all when it comes to a residential service. or even a chinese restaurant 208Y.


Zog and I have the same goals (I think) but we do look at things differently.

He will say there is a difference between heavy industrial and residential, I will say the difference is minimal.

The differences being the amount or rating of the PPE you must wear once the calculations are done.

On the other hand the things that are the same are much more important to me.

1) You can't just suit up (even with the correct suit) and do anything you want live. Live work is pretty much limited to troubleshooting.

2) You can't work on a residential electrical panel with the incoming feeder or service conductors live.

So to me the 'sames' out number the 'not sames'.


----------



## chicken steve

macmikeman said:


> Really all you need to do here to get convinced to turn off the power system and lock it out prior to working on it is to Google " Electrical burns" and then click the images tab. Warning: the pictures you will see are real graphic, and you might get nightmares tonight.


You'll find a large majority of them posted by an ex-Boston inspector who was on his own personal safety jihad, for his own personal gain Mac

He also had a penchant for accusing the decedants in a very disrespectful way, which i took to task in the past

Sorts like he throw the altuism of safety under the bus here

~CS~


----------



## xlink

Why do you need ppe or calculations if everything you do is power off? I'm just saying the fact that one uses ppe for anything more than installing a ground cluster belies the statement that nothing is done live.

I worked in a steel plant 15 years ago and I know that I can't stand in that plant, then, and make policy for a steel plant now. It has changed. Nor can someone stand in a steel plant and make policy for installing a 15 amp, 120 volt, bolt in breaker in an office. The customer in the office can (and will) call someone else next time.

When the entire subject of working live becomes taboo, then so does the training that goes with it. I know how to make a splitter safe but I can't teach it.

The most dangerous part of my job is driving. I do that every day and little is done about it because the money comes from the public purse. Politicians make rules about safety, but the rules always come at the expense of the private industry. 

It's all BS I say. I am sickened by people who ask me to do things that are dangerous because my live has no value to them. I am also put off by people who have great jobs, where they can shut down an entire plant to install a breaker, suggest I follow a policy that would put me out of business.

I'm outta here. I've got 10 days in California where anti-lock brakes don't cut in at every intersection. They're complaining about the cold but I'm taking shorts. Fight nice, kids!


----------



## Zog

BBQ said:


> Zog and I have the same goals (I think) but we do look at things differently.
> 
> He will say there is a difference between heavy industrial and residential, I will say the difference is minimal.
> 
> The differences being the amount or rating of the PPE you must wear once the calculations are done.
> 
> On the other hand the things that are the same are much more important to me.
> 
> 1) You can't just suit up (even with the correct suit) and do anything you want live. Live work is pretty much limited to troubleshooting.
> 
> 2) You can't work on a residential electrical panel with the incoming feeder or service conductors live.
> 
> So to me the 'sames' out number the 'not sames'.


Sounds like we look at things the same to me. The big difference is hazard level, but the rules are the same. 

With the expection of a panel change it is easy to turn anything off in a residential or commercial setting, when you do a panel change you have basically no OCPD to protect you from an arc flash (Won't clear in <2 seconds) so you have the potential for a fairly low fault (<10,000A usually) and long duration, can get nasty.


----------



## Zog

xlink said:


> It's all BS I say. I am sickened by people who ask me to do things that are dangerous because my live has no value to them. I am also put off by people who have great jobs, where they can shut down an entire plant to install a breaker, suggest I follow a policy that would put me out of business.


 Why would you shut down an entire plant to install a breaker? Nonsense. 

An arc flash accident is what will put you out of business, extreme high costs directly related to accident, EMR rating, insurance, etc...


----------



## Spark Master

What is the legal way to work in a residential panel?

pull the meter ? (live work)
call the power co?


----------



## Peewee0413

Technically call the poco to shut it off.


----------



## Spark Master

Peewee0413 said:


> Technically call the poco to shut it off.


but the poco is then doing live work to pull the meter.


----------



## Peewee0413

Cutouts?


----------



## Big John

Spark Master said:


> but the poco is then doing live work to pull the meter.


 POCO is allowed to. POCO is also usually much more no-nonsense about PPE.


----------



## Peewee0413

Do they follow 70e? If they find a loophole to work hot,(I can never find one) they still don't wear the proper gear taking meters off hot.


----------



## Peewee0413

I guess ill stop trolling.


----------



## Big John

Peewee0413 said:


> Do they follow 70e...?


 No. They also have a whole different set of OSHA regs: 1910.269.

But many of them are choosing to adopt parts of 70E for certain tasks. Some places are requiring shields when pulling meters. Gloves and FR have been part of the standard PPE for a long time now, regardless.


----------



## Spark Master

But the law is the law, why should it not apply to poco personnel ?

The job is the same. PULLING THE METER.


----------



## Big John

Spark Master said:


> But the law is the law, why should it not apply to poco personnel ?
> 
> The job is the same. PULLING THE METER.


 Because that's now how the law is written.

As a POCO employee I could go into a POCO substation and do all kinds of hot work if for some reason I was brain dead enough to want to.

Now as a contractor employee I go into private substations with the _exact same_ equipment, and I need to shut it all down to work on any of it.

The reasoning is that a public utility has to provide continuity of service to many thousands of customers, and that is weighted against employee safety. That is almost never the case in private industry, so employee safety trumps that.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Spark Master said:


> ...
> I feel the same way about 70E. There is a point where regulations prevent functionality. We would loose so much residential work if we were calling the poco 10 times a day.
> _Hey Mrs Johnson, I have to charge you 3 hours labor to sit here and wait for a lineman. Can you make me lunch and a cup of coffee while we wait._
> ...


That is exactly why the NFPA should have accepted my proposal that would have required the main breaker in a service panel to be physically isolated from the rest of the panel. If the line side is physically isolated from the rest of the panel, you can just turn off the main and then work in the panel. This design is required by the Canadian Electrical Code and there is no reason why it should not be in the NEC.


----------



## Big John

don_resqcapt19 said:


> ...This design is required by the Canadian Electrical Code and there is no reason why it should not be in the NEC.


 Agreed. I think they have a leg up on us in that regard. 

What was the CMPs reason for rejection?


----------



## Vintage Sounds

Since you guys can't get the code amendment passed to have the main breaker in an isolated compartment, why not start installing a non-fusible disconnect ahead of the panel?


----------



## Jlarson

Vintage Sounds said:


> Since you guys can't get the code amendment passed to have the main breaker in an isolated compartment, why not start installing a non-fusible disconnect ahead of the panel?


$$$$$$$


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Big John said:


> Agreed. I think they have a leg up on us in that regard.
> 
> What was the CMPs reason for rejection?


Here is part of CMP9's panel statement in the ROC.


> ...The utility should disconnect the line side power to the equipment whether there is one or more than one service
> disconnect to create a safe working condition. ..


----------



## Spark Master

Vintage Sounds said:


> Since you guys can't get the code amendment passed to have the main breaker in an isolated compartment, why not start installing a non-fusible disconnect ahead of the panel?


Because that then becomes the service entrance, where the bonding occurs.

To isolate the main lugs, all you need is a piece of card-board or plexiglass, like some disconnects have.


----------



## Vintage Sounds

Spark Master said:


> Because that then becomes the service entrance, where the bonding occurs.
> 
> To isolate the main lugs, all you need is a piece of card-board or plexiglass, like some disconnects have.


What's wrong with bonding in a disconnect?


----------



## Spark Master

Vintage Sounds said:


> What's wrong with bonding in a disconnect?


Because we are talking about the 10 zillion panels already installed. Not the far fetched possibility that they change the code for a residential service.


----------



## Maple_Syrup25

wear your rubber sole work boots and try not to touch the metal part of your screwdriver!


----------



## BBQ

Spark Master said:


> Because we are talking about the 10 zillion panels already installed. Not the far fetched possibility that they change the code for a residential service.


Well your suggestion of plexi or cardboard for the 10 zillion panels already installed is pretty goofy. :laughing:


----------



## Vintage Sounds

Spark Master said:


> Because we are talking about the 10 zillion panels already installed. Not the far fetched possibility that they change the code for a residential service.


I'm not talking about making it a code(someone already tried unsuccessfully), I'm addressing the fact that a lot of guys here are saying, and have said in the past, that they would like to be able to de-energise an entire resi panel without pulling the meter. I'm just suggesting that for new installs or panel replacements, a means of locking out the whole panel be included regardless of what the minimum code says. A meter base with built-in main breaker or a disconnect before the panel could accomplish this. Obviously one drawback is the added cost, but then, dying or being injured in an arc flash is also pretty expensive.

I still don't understand what 10 zillion existing panels have to do with bonding the neutral inside a disconnect.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Spark Master said:


> ...
> 
> To isolate the main lugs, all you need is a piece of card-board or plexiglass, like some disconnects have.


No, the isolation would have to be the equivalent of the enclosure itself.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Vintage Sounds said:


> I'm not talking about making it a code(someone already tried unsuccessfully), I'm addressing the fact that a lot of guys here are saying, and have said in the past, that they would like to be able to de-energise an entire resi panel without pulling the meter. I'm just suggesting that for new installs or panel replacements, a means of locking out the whole panel be included regardless of what the minimum code says. A meter base with built-in main breaker or a disconnect before the panel could accomplish this. Obviously one drawback is the added cost, but then, dying or being injured in an arc flash is also pretty expensive.
> 
> I still don't understand what 10 zillion existing panels have to do with bonding the neutral inside a disconnect.


That will be my proposal for the 2017 code cycle.


----------



## Vintage Sounds

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That will be my proposal for the 2017 code cycle.


Good call. You guys should keep pushing till it happens. By the way, what would happen if you theoretically bought a panel in Canada and installed it on a job in the US? Say a Square D QO. It would be UL and CSA listed after all.


----------



## Southeast Power

Spark Master said:


> You mean you broke the law, and brag about it on the internet.
> 
> Or here's a better one.
> 
> You broke the law by playing with live electricity, but the property owner is responsible because he didn't put an arc-flash sticker on the box. :laughing:
> 
> But yet, you're are the licensed professional. :thumbup:
> 
> 70E sounds like an obama law.


Obama law? 
Something we should have done years ago but the ignorant and selfish keep us living in a premodern paradigm?


----------



## Electric Daigo

I have in the past put a small piece of jap wrap over the end of my nut driver to hold the bolt in place. Gota do what you gota do at times.


----------



## Spark Master

jrannis said:


> Obama law?
> Something we should have done years ago but the ignorant and selfish keep us living in a premodern paradigm?


Let me know the next time you see an arc flash hazard level on a resi panel.


----------



## sparkyforlife

BBQ said:


> That is what OSHA and 70E require.
> 
> Fines can be $70,000.


Crazy thing is these factories that pump out millions of dollars worth of products will risk that without hesitation.


----------



## Peewee0413

sparkyforlife said:


> Crazy thing is these factories that pump out millions of dollars worth of products will risk that without hesitation.


 I totally agree, greed is a MF.


----------



## vizzolts

screw holding screwdriver with 1000V gloves...a lot of bolt on breaker bolts take #2 square drive which seems to hold pretty good...pair of safety glasses. 

As far as safety goes I think it's a giant pain in the ass and don't really follow the shut off/suit up rules at all.


At the end of the day though I should probably change my ways. Following the rules will give us all better odds of retiring alive without serious injuries, keep us legally in the clear, and probably allow us to charge for more time and make more $$.


----------



## btharmy

vizzolts said:


> At the end of the day though I should probably change my ways. Following the rules will give us all better odds of retiring alive without serious injuries, keep us legally in the clear, and probably allow us to charge for more time and make more $$.




You nailed it right there. It is ALL about money. It is hard for my customer to accept the fact that they need to pay me for 6 hours to change a breaker on a simple service call. Phone the utility, wait for utility to pull the fuses to the pad mount xfmr, shut down production and be off line If they don't have a genny for their server room, sit around and wait for the utility to return to energize. Basically, it is going to cost them $50,000 or more (my invoice and loss of production) for me to do this. The other option is, pull the cover, throw on the gloves, grab the 1000v tools, pull the breaker, install new, button back up and out the door in an hour or less. That was the norm not too long ago. It is what is expected. That is why you won't get paid to do it by the book around here.


----------



## Spark Master

btharmy said:


> You nailed it right there. It is ALL about money. It is hard for my customer to accept the fact that they need to pay me for 6 hours to change a breaker on a simple service call. Phone the utility, wait for utility to pull the fuses to the pad mount xfmr, shut down production and be off line If they don't have a genny for their server room, sit around and wait for the utility to return to energize. Basically, it is going to cost them $50,000 or more (my invoice and loss of production) for me to do this. The other option is, pull the cover, throw on the gloves, grab the 1000v tools, pull the breaker, install new, button back up and out the door in an hour or less. That was the norm not too long ago. It is what is expected. That is why you won't get paid to do it by the book around here.


They will simply call someone else to change that breaker in 10 minutes. Besides losing production, they are losing payroll as their workers are sitting around doing nothing.


----------



## Big John

If it was purely about money, they wouldn't allow hot work: The cost of an unplanned shutdown will always be significantly more than the cost of an outage.

It's about gambling. They're just crossing their fingers and hoping that nothing ever goes wrong. 

I've seen things go wrong way too many times to believe that's an intelligent business model.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Vintage Sounds said:


> Good call. You guys should keep pushing till it happens. By the way, what would happen if you theoretically bought a panel in Canada and installed it on a job in the US? Say a Square D QO. It would be UL and CSA listed after all.


I would not expect that the panel designed for use in Canada would be listed to the US standards. It would be listed to the Canadian standards.
Also, the design used in Canada blocks access for branch circuits at the top of the panel. It appears to be a common practice there to install the panel horizontally. That is something we cannot do here, unless we only want to install half of the breakers. 


> 404.7 Indicating. General-use and motor-circuit switches, circuit breakers, and molded case switches, where mounted in an enclosure as described in 404.3, shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open (off) or closed (on) position. Where these switch or circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the up position of the handle shall be the (on) position.


----------



## ponyboy

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I would not expect that the panel designed for use in Canada would be listed to the US standards. It would be listed to the Canadian standards.
> Also, the design used in Canada blocks access for branch circuits at the top of the panel. It appears to be a common practice there to install the panel horizontally. That is something we cannot do here, unless we only want to install half of the breakers.


I use 347/600 volt panelboards for 277/480 all the time?


----------



## g-alberta

a lot of people are talking about killing a resi panel. Pulling the meter as a means of disconnect is technically hot work since the jaws are live. That there is possibility of an arc flash. Is this only from accidently grounding the live portion coming from the utility? If i turn every breaker off theni should have to current draw. In this scenario how could you get a dangerous situation?


----------



## 360max

Peewee0413 said:


> Ha I would almost bet half the people on this site breaks 70e in some way. Shouldn't you wear protective gear, to verify voltage/no voltage.


..and those of us that might certainly wouldn't be asking the question in post #1. :jester: 

Mcsparkin (OP) has no business around a live panel yet alone working on one.


----------



## Sparky208

360max said:


> Mcsparkin (OP) has no business around a live panel yet alone working on one.


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## michael3

My current foreman was the mechanic that began my training about 13 years ago...... under his supervision (12.5 years ago) I was installing my first bolt in breaker while holding the bare shank of the screwdriver. Out of nowhere and faster then my peripheral vision can see he smacks my arm. Still remember how it hurt. He told me not to touch shank before I started, young and dumb didn't listen.

I thanked him for the lesson. Every time I do a bolt in I never forgot the "lesson".

I got a full set of 1000v weras on order now.


----------



## brian john

michael3 said:


> My current foreman was the mechanic that began my training about 13 years ago...... under his supervision (12.5 years ago) I was installing my first bolt in breaker while holding the bare shank of the screwdriver. Out of nowhere and faster then my peripheral vision can see he smacks my arm. Still remember how it hurt. He told me not to touch shank before I started, young and dumb didn't listen.
> 
> I thanked him for the lesson. Every time I do a bolt in I never forgot the "lesson".
> 
> I got a full set of 1000v weras on order now.


You were foolish he was STUPID.


----------



## michael3

brian john said:


> You were foolish he was STUPID.


didn't say it was a perfect situation. we both did a lot of growing since then .


----------



## Shockdoc

Use an extension on your cordless impact with the proper drive( phillips, square, etc) .I do these things blindfolded


----------



## eejack

Shockdoc said:


> Use an extension on your cordless impact with the proper drive( phillips, square, etc) .I do these things blindfolded


Well, a blindfold would protect your vision at least, in case of an arc flash.


----------



## Shockdoc

eejack said:


> Well, a blindfold would protect your vision at least, in case of an arc flash.


I'd know better than to mess with it live if there is signs of heat damage to the buses.


----------



## eejack

Shockdoc said:


> I'd know better than to mess with it live if there is signs of heat damage to the buses.


A lot of folks think they have it covered until something unexpected happens.

For example, do you check to see if your multi pole breakers are not shorted across? I had a bad breaker - installed in a dead panel thankfully - that was a dead short across two of three poles. Can't imagine what would have happened if I tried installing it live.


----------



## sbrn33

eejack said:


> A lot of folks think they have it covered until something unexpected happens.
> 
> For example, do you check to see if your multi pole breakers are not shorted across? I had a bad breaker - installed in a dead panel thankfully - that was a dead short across two of three poles. Can't imagine what would have happened if I tried installing it live.


That interests me. I thought that the poles in a breaker, at least the small sizes had no electrical common parts. How was it shorted?


----------



## eejack

sbrn33 said:


> That interests me. I thought that the poles in a breaker, at least the small sizes had no electrical common parts. How was it shorted?


No idea - it was broken, or was damaged and ended up back on a stockroom shelf or was wet inside. Never would have expected it.


----------



## manchestersparky

I used to install bolt in breakers in live 120/208 and 277/480 all the time.
I look back and think of all the things I did hot and realize how lucky I've been!

Since I've jumped ship and became an inspector, I have seen way too many arc flashed pieces of equipment. I have spoken with too many fire marshalls about the status of the person who was working on the equipment 
It only takes a second to ruin your life, or the person working with you. You need to stop and think about everyone that will be affected if that 1 second slip up happens to you!
Your Wife, Your Parents, your KIDS, your brothers and sisters, the person working with you, the owner of the company, your boss, the owner of the facility / business your doing the work at, The employees that miss work due to the lack of electric. 

You see that 1 second slip up has a major effect on a lot of people, some of who you don't even know. Some of which will pay the price for your 1 second slip for life ! Is working it live worht the chance of your kid growing up without a DAD worth it? Or Your wife losing her husband and her life being turned upside down worth it?


----------



## manchestersparky

It took about 1 second to to send an electrician to the burn unit and to ruin this gear


----------

