# Siemens Apogee automation system



## Wirenuting

sprdave said:


> Our church has aquired a former public school, which has a Siemens Apogee system installed to control the heating (and some other things - previously controlled from school board office). Heating which includes Herman Nelson and Chromolux heaters/ventilators, and some wall heaters. The electrician convinced them to (try) keep it (they wanted to remove it and have a plain wall stat). But knows nothing about it, so I seemed tasked with this. Anyone know about these things? Want to find out how to connect and use it. It looks like there's an ethernet? (RJ45) attachment and I suspect was part of the school networking (and fibre that runs to board office). There's low voltage wires running to contactor boxes (pic attached) for wall heaters, and (LAN/data?) to control units in the ventilators (which have a Siemens room sensor on the wall). That's about as far as I got so far.


A Siemens apology panel... 
Yes you can plug your laptop in. It uses Hyper Terminal for communications if you don't have the Apogee or insight soft wear. 
Let me look for the book and if I find it I'll PM you


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## JRaef

Siemens Apogee is a product of Siemens Building Technologies (SBT), which is almost a completely different company from Siemens Industry, the ones we are more familiar with. No relation until you get to the ivory towers in Germany, not even the ability to communicate with one another. 

Siemens had bought another company called Landis and Gyr, who had previously bought several other smaller companies providing BMS (Building Management Systems) equipment. Apogee was part of the legacy of a company called Staefa Controls, bought by L+G, then bought by Siemens, hence the lack of connection to anything else from Siemens other than at the top.

Because of all of this history, it's pretty difficult to get support for any of it other than via SBT, who don't allow independent contractors to work on it officially. The only way to get support is to sign an ongoing contract with SBT for it. Good luck...


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## sprdave

Thanks Im having trouble finding precise information like that...We may have to get Siemens or someone involved (hope not)

I should be able to plug into the "ethernet" port directly then? Probably has a password right? Is the software better (probably expensive)?


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## Wirenuting

JRaef said:


> Siemens Apogee is a product of Siemens Building Technologies (SBT), which is almost a completely different company from Siemens Industry, the ones we are more familiar with. No relation until you get to the ivory towers in Germany, not even the ability to communicate with one another.
> 
> Siemens had bought another company called Landis and Gyr, who had previously bought several other smaller companies providing BMS (Building Management Systems) equipment. Apogee was part of the legacy of a company called Staefa Controls, bought by L+G, then bought by Siemens, hence the lack of connection to anything else from Siemens other than at the top.
> 
> Because of all of this history, it's pretty difficult to get support for any of it other than via SBT, who don't allow independent contractors to work on it officially. The only way to get support is to sign an ongoing contract with SBT for it. Good luck...


They are out of Buffalo Grove Il. And your right about support,, unless you pay.. 
I've been thru their training and it's good, but I programmed for Uncle Sam and they had to play nice with us.. Its easy stuff once you see the manual. It's a form of basic with their proprietary program control laungage,, PPCL,,, LOL.

http://home.comcast.net/~fredrock/mvc/Siemens_ppcl.pdf

I forgot the hyper terminal settings, but I'm sure it's on Google.. There are so few to use..


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## Wirenuting

Looking at the lowest module, near the green lights, if you see a flashing red light it means the battery is dead. Don't kill the power as the program will dump. Then your outa luck. 

Take a few better pictures of the writing on the modular and post them tomorrow.. I'll tell ha what they mean.


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## AllWIRES

I know what's wrong with it.... There's Siemens all over it.

I'd be surprised if it doesn't have a password lock available only to a Siemens tech. They are very tight with the alarm systems so I'm sure their proprietary Kung-fu grip is tight through all ranks.


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## bigdan1

Wirenuting said:


> A Siemens apology panel...
> Yes you can plug your laptop in. It uses Hyper Terminal for communications if you don't have the Apogee or insight soft wear.
> Let me look for the book and if I find it I'll PM you



I have a customer that has all their buildings on the apogee stuff Wirenuting is right use Hyper Terminal. If you have any specific questions ask away I have worked on these for years and their not to bad at least better than some energy management systems I have seen.


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## Wirenuting

bigdan1 said:


> I have a customer that has all their buildings on the apogee stuff Wirenuting is right use Hyper Terminal. If you have any specific questions ask away I have worked on these for years and their not to bad at least better than some energy management systems I have seen.


We have many buildings on it, 100+ and beyond its hick-ups it works well. 
The interface can be easy for a customer to use if the graphics are done well. 

If the OP's system still has a working modem and is connected to a working phone line, I would cycle the modem off/on and see if it dials out. I'm sure there is a front end waiting to connect. 

I hope the project book is still on site?


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> Take a few better pictures of the writing on the modular and post them tomorrow.. I'll tell ha what they mean.


Enclosed is some full resolution crops of the open processor. I'll try getting more pics today and try some stuff.
Yes, there's books and papers around, mostly with (line) drawings which I started looking at and it shows things like temp. sensors and stuff.


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## Wirenuting

Good. The battery is OK. 

The drawings will tell you everything connected to the system. Makes life easy. 
Post a picture of the upper modules and I'll explain how each "point" is described. 

Getting to the program is the trick. For a first timer it's dangerous as dumping the current program will kill the system. The books most likely will not have the written program in them. 
Learning how to program this system isn't hard if you already have programming skills and experience. The PPCL book is the key. 

What is it that you want to change? It may be more cost effective for Siemens to rewrite for your needs. Any way you go,,, start off with how I explained in the PM.


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## sprdave

I took some more pics of the unit. I noticed there is a "digital point unit" nearby (keep finding more things in this place). There is also an "ethernet microserver" in the unit, with a cat5 running to where the computer rack was. So that must be how they connected. There is also a phone jack beside it, but not connected (previous setup?). 

I tried plugging a cat5 patch into my laptop, I did get the link light, my laptop indicated ethernet limited connectivity... but wasn't able to get farther, maybe having a router between would help?

The talk of "programming" has me wondering still. While I may be able to figure it out myself, Im concerned with usability. Once this is setup, is this something that someone else is going to be able to use? They'll want to be able to turn on the heat when they use the room for example. Is there something they could use (i.e. the room sensors or purchase another device) to turn it on "manually"?

As far as what they want changed, as I say they want to be able to turn on/off, and lesser extent adjust, heat. These ventilators also (able to) bring in outside air, not sure if that's something manual/fixed or controlled. Im guessing there's some time programming for school hours currently. About all the regular time would be on Sunday mornings (wouldn't necessarily need automatic). Otherwise just be able to turn on an area as needed.


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## sprdave

The ethernet as well as a box of something on top (or garbage?)


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## Wirenuting

The box on top are the address keys, and are worth saving.
The top picture is a digital output controller, key number 001, it rings the school bells between classes.. 
The blue colored ones with address keys numbered 006 - 008 are analog I put modules and tells were the thermostats are located..
The big blue control box is the digital output relay controller and should be a set of dry contacts that will turn things on and off.. It should be connected to that building control panel. It's gets its commands from there.. It's old and you might not be able to replace it if it's bad... 
The network interface box did go to their server room and then to a computer front end that had the grafical user interface..

You can plug your laptop into the panels phone jack and not the network plug. 
This is were you need hyper terminal via the laptops modem. If your laptop does it have an old style phone jack, your outa luck. Without knowing how to dial in from the outside you can't do much. 

It might be more cost effective to go back to the old fashioned way. 
But with your time and their money, anything is possible. 

Google Siemens apogee, MBC, RBC, and digital control modules. You'll begin to get a better idea of what's in front of you.


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## Wirenuting

I can't read these points. But they are the program address numbers for each of the contact points used in the blue control box.
It should list a shortened name for each point.
ie: Bld 128H.AHU1.hpmp1. ----- means, building 128H, air handler unit 1, heating pump 1---
The book you have should have short description like what I posted. It was one of mine a few years ago. 
The blue control box might be used to turn that pump on and off via the main building controller. It might also have Bld 128H.AHU1.hpmp1.proof as a point, ie a current sensor or contact as an input.


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> You can plug your laptop into the panels phone jack and not the network plug.
> This is were you need hyper terminal via the laptops modem. If your laptop does it have an old style phone jack, your outa luck. Without knowing how to dial in from the outside you can't do much.


So you're saying I can't connect to this via network? Just for setting it up?
No my laptop doesn't have a modem. I'll have to see if I can find a usb that will work. Can the modem just connect directly to the unit (without a live phone line)? Where would this rj11 jack be?

Ive tried google but can't seem to find anything much... We intend to try the school board for info on the system.


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> I can't read these points. But they are the program address numbers for each of the contact points used in the blue control box.
> It should list a shortened name for each point.
> ie: Bld 128H.AHU1.hpmp1. ----- means, building 128H, air handler unit 1, heating pump 1---
> The book you have should have short description like what I posted. It was one of mine a few years ago.
> The blue control box might be used to turn that pump on and off via the main building controller. It might also have Bld 128H.AHU1.hpmp1.proof as a point, ie a current sensor or contact as an input.


The blue box diagram, the points go something like
7? character code like on the modules
short description like on modules
0.2.0.0.0


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## Wirenuting

I will post a picture or two tomorrow morning. 
Oh wait a second, there is also a serial cable for laptop connection. It was a serial to rj11. 
I forgot about that one. Sorry but it's been a couple of years since I connected like that. The laptop won't need the modem.
They cut a corner by not labeling the book correctly. Low big won again.


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## Wirenuting

I googled,

Siemens MBC

First return was,

http://www.controlmart.co.kr/shop/file/file1/land_mbc_40.pdf


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> I will post a picture or two tomorrow morning.
> Oh wait a second, there is also a serial cable for laptop connection. It was a serial to rj11.
> I forgot about that one. Sorry but it's been a couple of years since I connected like that. The laptop won't need the modem.
> They cut a corner by not labeling the book correctly. Low big won again.


My laptop doesn't have a serial port. Can it do HDMI? lol
I found a USB modem, would that work or do you need an actual phone line?

More googling terms help, thanks, although using that term still didn't bring up your result for first several....Can I trade you Googles?


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## Wirenuting

sprdave said:


> My laptop doesn't have a serial port. Can it do HDMI? lol
> I found a USB modem, would that work or do you need an actual phone line?
> 
> More googling terms help, thanks, although using that term still didn't bring up your result for first several....Can I trade you Googles?


You can try the modem but I don't think it will work. It's best to have the modem connected to the MBC and let it dial out. 
I don't have an older panel in the building I'm working in now. The newer panels here have USB ports. 
But here is a picture from the project book. It shows the physical equipment, shortened names and data point addresses. This is the data in the program you would see if or when you can get to it.


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## sprdave

I was able to look at it a few minutes and my summary (guess) of what's happening.

There is the main unit (RBC), that contains the open processor (brains). It has input modules on the right, connected to temperature sensors in the areas with standard (resistive wall) heaters, and outdoor sensor. Output module on the left with dry contacts.

The RBC communicates via lan trunk with the modules inside the 11 ventilators (Chromolox 10.5kw and Herman Nelson 16.6kw), which are also connected to room sensors that display the temperature. It operates 3 relays for 3 stages of heat, a relay for blower?, and actuator for fresh air?.

The RBC also communicates with the (blue) DPU, which is essentially dry contact outputs for the zones with standards heaters. Beside it are DC power supplies that feed power through the dry contacts to normally-closed contactors in the field which operate those standard heaters, and exhaust fans.

Am I anywhere close?


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## sprdave

I also found out if I turn on the power to the heaters, the heaters do come on. The standard heaters I believe are still controllable from original wall thermostats (apogee overrides by opening the contactors?). The classroom ventilators run even with the slider on the room sensor turned down. It seemed to settle out at 22°C after an hour, so maybe that was/is what is set in the system.

I looked at the drawings some... something doesn't make sense on the ventilators... It looks like they go from L1, through the relay contacts and heating element, and return to L1 (and so on). That should be going from line to line right? 

And I think the contactors (for standard heaters) should be NC. Looks like some pages on the programming.


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## sprdave

heres the pics I meant to enclose


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## Wirenuting

9 out of 10 times the Siemens slider on the stats is not enabled. 
Moving makes people think it's helping. 

Your learning quickly. It's easy stuff once the magic show is over.


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## Wirenuting

That last picture is part of the program in the panel. 
It may have been modified since it was first loaded, but it's what you can expect to see. 
If you know "basic" then using that link I gave you you can quickly understand what the program is trying to do.


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> 9 out of 10 times the Siemens slider on the stats is not enabled.
> Moving makes people think it's helping.


So there would be a way to enable it, so it controls the temp. then?


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## sprdave

Is there any issue with disconnecting the power (temporarily)? It is connected to a UPS but don't know how good it is.


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## MoscaWD

The photo with the CAT5 device is called an AEM. This is what the school would have used to connect it to a main server usually at the board office. Without the server it is pretty much useless to you. And I have not seen them sell a server cheap enough to make it worthwhile for a small site to use.

You can use a program called hyperterminal(or any terminal emulation) to connect to it. You can get the USB to comm cable from any staples. You can also make your own 9 pin comm to cat3 cable pretty easily. If you live near burlington the stuff is pretty cheap at a place called Sayal.

Once you plug into the device you will most likely use a baudrate of 9600 (could be 38400 or 72500 maybe even 115200) these are the baudrates that the system is able to use, could be any one of them. Being the age it is I would guess 9600.

Once you can connect it is pretty simple to login, you can use name/pass of high/high or med/med or low/low each have different and less abilities. Once you have logged in its pretty straight forward press the appropriate key to go to the right spot. The program will be the fun part trying to read through, it's a really basic programming language.


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## MoscaWD

Also, so long as the memory in the device is good, and the on board battery is good you can shut it all down and turn it back on without a worry, it will reload everything from its internal memory. You do run a risk of losing all the data if the memory or battery are shot and its down for too long


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## sprdave

MoscaWD said:


> Without the server it is pretty much useless to you. And I have not seen them sell a server cheap enough to make it worthwhile for a small site to use.
> 
> You can use a program called hyperterminal(or any terminal emulation) to connect to it. You can get the USB to comm cable from any staples. You can also make your own 9 pin comm to cat3 cable pretty easily. If you live near burlington the stuff is pretty cheap at a place called Sayal.


So what you're saying is the AEM is only compatible with certain proprietary equipment, and no way to use a standard computer?
I've seen reference to connecting over ethernet to insight workstation, is that the equipment needed?

For the cable, are you saying a USB to serial DB9 
(like http://www.staples.ca/en/Aluratek-USB-to-Serial-DB9-Adapter/product_47875_2-CA_1_20001)
then (make) a DB9 to rj11 and does that plug into the MMI or MMI/modem port on the open processor? I suppose the db9 to rj11 cable currently connected to the AEM could be used.


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## MoscaWD

sprdave said:


> So what you're saying is the AEM is only compatible with certain proprietary equipment, and no way to use a standard computer?
> I've seen reference to connecting over ethernet to insight workstation, is that the equipment needed?


The equipment can be any computer working as a server, it's the software and licence that you need on the computer. Insight is just the front end software,(like Microsoft word, or other third party software on windows) it provides an easier way to view trend data, provide a graphical interface for systems and alarms for operators. You can try and see what they would sell you this software or a version of it, but it is generally a costly endeavor. Also even if you buy the software it is a terribly hard endeavor to get through without their tech support. 



sprdave said:


> For the cable, are you saying a USB to serial DB9
> (like http://www.staples.ca/en/Aluratek-USB-to-Serial-DB9-Adapter/product_47875_2-CA_1_20001)
> then (make) a DB9 to rj11 and does that plug into the MMI or MMI/modem port on the open processor? I suppose the db9 to rj11 cable currently connected to the AEM could be used.


yup, that's the one. depending on the version of AEM your using the device should be using a 9 pin to rj11 cable in one of the terminal ports on the RBC. The also reminds me, there will be two ports you can plug your RJ11 into on the side of the processor board. They will likely be 2 different baud rates. I would stick to the one marked HMI


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## sprdave

found a cheaper one on Ebay www.ebay.ca/itm/USB-To-RS232-Serial...-for-PDA-Windows-7-32-64-Bit-OS-/390681505894
not sure the quality or if there's something to look for... (not that $20 is bad if it does the trick).

Yes, there's a serial (9-pin?) to rj11 cable into one port. I thought the ports where marked MMI and MMI/modem (unless it was somewhere else I saw that). Can the room sensors or TEC's be connected to directly to do something? (there's a rj11 port, must be for something)

Without the expensive software, is this something someone else is going to be able to use, even if I figure out the programming? Like to be able to turn on the heat? Say some other device or modification or using the room sensors?

I noticed when I was there during the week, I turned a heater on and it seemed to settle at 22°C. When I tried Saturday it started up a bit, then when I came back a bit later it was off at 18°. Then pushed the day/night button and it started up.


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## MoscaWD

It is very easy to set up for multiple users to control the system in the long run, Just connect a cheap computer with a hyper terminal setup and the login and they can control the boiler controls. MMI is the same thing as HMI (man/machine interface or human / machine interface)

When you look at the program, Day/night is what Siemens calls their occupied / unoccupied. Once you get into hyper terminal you can view all the sub points for each TEC. It's hard to say if the override switch on the temp sensor was enabled or not. Alot of the times its left disabled or with a 2 hour override. So there is a chance that it was heating for a bit, but then went back to heating at 17C. From what I can read of the program there U1371OF is scheduled to run (assuming as it resets the counter when its off) it flips all the unit vents to day mode when its on.

Honestly, get a computer talking to it through hyper terminal and you can do just about anything you need, it's just a lot easier with the interface.


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## Hatrabbit

Here's the pinout for your cable...

9 pin female -------> RJ-11 Connector
3 to 5
2 to 6
5 to 1
5 to 2

Or you can order a cable from Siemens Building Technologies part# 540-143.


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## sprdave

I got the idea (realized) of using a Windows XP computer sitting on the shelf. That should work okay for this (hyperterminal) Im thinking.

I took it in and realized the serial to rj11 cable on the AEM is a DB25 female. The computer does have a DB25 but female as well, so would need a coupler. If that would even work? Or come up with something to make a DB9.


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## MoscaWD

Damn must be an old system if it's using the DB25, I'd attempt to get a DB9 and stick with it, I have never had much luck with the couplers, the older system seem to be funny with using them..


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## sprdave

I suppose if I find a serial mouse or something, I could chop it off and put on a rj11...


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## sprdave

So I hacked this up. Found an old serial mouse, chopped off the cord and metered the pins. Took some 4c phone wire and crimped a rj25 plug. Spliced them together. Took in the Win XP computer and gave it a shot. First was stuck as Windows wouldn't come up with a serial port. Later on thought of the BIOS, and sure enough it was disabled. I was then able to connect on the MMI port at 9600.

So was not sure how much to touch from there until finding out more. I went under points and had some stuff displayed like temp. Some sensors seemed to be current temps, the ventilators (which were off) were maybe showing the last temp from when they were on?

I was able to get some programming. Went to:
>application
>ppcl
>display
>program:*
>field panel=1
>first line number=1
>last line number=1000 
(and repeated in chunks up to line 32000)

There were four that come up, the biggest being 137.energy calcs starting with: "ET 20 C PPCL CALCULATIONS TO SUPPORT STANDARD GREEN DASHBOARD GRAPHICS A
ND SIMULATIONS
ET 30 C REVISION 1.0 - INITIAL RELEASE - JANUARY 13, 2010 -"

Maybe to do with limiting the demand (since the total heating is greater than the service)?

I was also watching a slideshow about connecting to TECs with Datamate Base, which talked about the setpoint slider and enabling/limits, night override, etc. Is there a way to connect to the TECs, or can these settings be changed through the panel?


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## MoscaWD

sprdave said:


> I was also watching a slideshow about connecting to TECs with Datamate Base, which talked about the setpoint slider and enabling/limits, night override, etc. Is there a way to connect to the TECs, or can these settings be changed through the panel?



You can find your TEC's under Application, Fln, Tec. 

If you do a Log it will tell you which ones are powered and talking (N) or failed and not worked (F).

If you do a display subpoint report you can view all the subpoints in the TEC.

To command any of the TEC subpoints enter the name - 137C001everything after the colon is the name of the subpoint)

So

Point
Command
Value

To command any of the TEC subpoints enter the name - 137C001everything after the colon is the name of the subpoint)CTL STPT

When you do this, you are overriding the programming. In order to let the program retake control you need to goto 

Point 
Operation
Priority
None
Enter the subpoint (or point) name.

If you do a full point log report I can probably give you a rough idea of which points you want to control.

Under the TEC subpoints there will be a stat enable, stat set point range and such. If you post a subpoint display report I can probably tell you which subpoints you want to control too.


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## sprdave

MoscaWD said:


> If you do a full point log report I can probably give you a rough idea of which points you want to control.
> 
> Under the TEC subpoints there will be a stat enable, stat set point range and such. If you post a subpoint display report I can probably tell you which subpoints you want to control too.


thanks,
In case I don't find it when I look, to get the point log would be something like:
point
log
?

And also, how would subpoint display report be reached?


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## MoscaWD

Point Log -
Point, Log, Enter - This brings up every point in the system

Subpoint Log -
Application, Fln, Tec, Display, Subpoints, Name, Enter - This brings up the subpoints for the name of the TEC you enter

At any point, press shift and # to get back to the starting point


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## sprdave

So I copied the point log and a subpoint log for a TEC 137C006 as instructed, after turning on power to rm 6 heater. attached.

I also tried to go to
point
command
value
137C006:STPT DIAL
YES
...and got response: E3605(0x0E15) - Physical point not commandable
same thing for DAY HTG STPT to 18.
So those aren't changed that way...

I did CTL STPT to 18 which worked (and lowered rm temp)
Log
[92] :CTL STPT 17.99 DEG C -N- OPER
then changed it back the way said.

I also tried
point
operation
enable
137C006:STPT DIAL
response: "Point 137C006:STPT DIAL Enabled"
but log still shows:
[14] :STPT DIAL NO -N- NONE
So not sure what I did there (hopefully not mess something up?)

So what can you tell me about all this (while I try to look into)? Im a little hesitant to just play around with it.


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## MoscaWD

For the most part it looks like they spent a ton of time on energy conservation and the only real points worth using are -

FC137 (FREE CLG E/D) ON -N- NONE
H137 (ELECT HEAT E/D) OFF -N- NONE
H1371OF (FRONT CORR TOD) ON -N- NONE
H1372OF (NORTH CORR TOD) ON -N- NONE

H1373OF (BACK CORR TOD) ON -N- NONE
H1374OF (GYM HEAT TOD) ON -N- NONE
H1376OF (OFFICE HEAT TOD) ON -N- NONE
H1377OF (WASHRM HEAT TOD) ON -N- NONE

H1378OF (STAFF HEAT TOD) ON -N- NONE
H1379OF (COMPUTER RM TOD) ON -N- NONE
U1371OF (UV TOD) ON -N- NONE


These points should exist under a schedule, an energy saving mode that when their turned off puts the room setpoints to a wider band for energy conservation.

As for enabling the stpt dial, you can still do it but some of the subpoints in the TEC, I cannot remember the exact steps as its been a long time since I have set the initial values of a TEC, but if you goto application, fln, tec, and look for the command value and enter the subpoint you should be able to change the initial value.

A quick google of the TEC application number yeilds a pdf explaining its sequence https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...v-h0aNoRrQLfSmF3SnB1pDA&bvm=bv.93564037,d.aWw

I am a big fan personally of free cooling. Cheap way to cool down a room using outside air. Wish I could put one in my house.

Looks like a bunch of your FLN is down. Pretty much looks like everything was run by TEC. I thought there was supposed to be a boiler system on this too? Maybe thats what the heating points are? I would have to see more of the program to understand what the office heating points are doing.

Don't worry about the Point, operation section. Really all it is good for is releasing the points back to no priority for the program to take over. It doesn't really do much outside of that.


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## sprdave

MoscaWD said:


> As for enabling the stpt dial, you can still do it but some of the subpoints in the TEC, I cannot remember the exact steps as its been a long time since I have set the initial values of a TEC, but if you goto application, fln, tec, and look for the command value and enter the subpoint you should be able to change the initial value.


Somewhere I did go when I was there:
application
flN
tec
and get: >Log, Display, Edit, Initvalues, Quit? 

But didn't take it further as wasn't quite sure (and didn't have info/time). Actually I think I did go to edit (an edit somewhere) but didn't seem to do what I wanted (change certain options and not get into modifying things I don't want to mess). Maybe it was Initvalues I wanted? It makes more sense to me now, sometimes the short forms don't click with me right away 

The points you posted are the electric heating areas, common areas like halls, office, washrooms, gym, that use wall heaters (panel/convection) that also have standard line-volt thermostats, as well as the temp sensors that go to the mbc. The 11 classrooms have electric ventilators with room sensors, the 137C001 and so on. Their power has been off, except for 137C006 I turned on as mentioned. Why they are down I presume. There is no boiler, it is 100% electric currently.

What's the meaning of the ones you posted and same units farther up like?
137EH01 (FRONT CORR HTG) ON -N- OPER

I can do some more reading and post the ppcl tomorrow.


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## sprdave

The 'electric heat' areas are controlled through contactors from the (blue) DPU. The exhaust also. The ventilators have the TECs.


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## sprdave

This is the PPCL I copied. Again, a lot is the energy thing, is that doing anything or any good?


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## MoscaWD

When you see the points with the word Oper beside it, this means your controlling it on, and it will not turn off. Sounds like it is a seasonal enable for your heating if they are still running wall stats. If you do the point, operation, priority, none they will revert back to programming. More than likely there is a deadband that controls them on outside are temperature. 

From the PPCL, it looks like they were setting targets for total energy month usuage and when they hit that, they shut down electric heat. I find this surprising as it was a school, and I would expect heat to take priority over kwh being paid to the utility. It also looks like from the points list that they took their meter with them when they left, your daily kwh don't seem be keeping up, but I can't tell which are physical points and which are virtual points from the points list.(although it may be sent down from the school board mainframe)

Basically, I think we are now at the point where you have to decide what you want. I would almost suggest wiping out the points and PPCL and starting over, but it all really depends what you want to do. Being that you are a church, it might not be a bad idea to contact your local siemens building technologies group and see what they are willing to do on a volunteer bassis. I know they used to have a program called datamate base that (i believe) was free and you would be able to back up and edit the panel. 

Being able to back up the system before you blow it away will probably help with your piece of mind. You can try to find it on google, but I had no luck. There is still a fair bit of equipment there that set up right can help you save some money and give you some decent automation,


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## sprdave

Staring at this ppcl some, I believe the "electricheat" (wall units) each:
when TOD (time-of-day) is ON and seasonal (oct-april and outdoor<13°) is ON, then the heat is fixed on (subject to wall stats). Otherwise, the mbc maintains 15° according to the siemens temp sensor.

I expected them to be limiting the temp so people don't crank the heat up, but not seeing that, although alot of stats are covered.

On the unit ventilators, I was confused about line 11000 setting the timer for setting DAY on the ventilators (15sec intervals), when TOD is OFF...But I now think what's happening is the program processes (the next line) faster than 15secs, and thus the timer doesn't have a chance to get to 15, until TOD is ON, then it's allowed to continue counting.

The ventilators: when outdoor temp is under 24°, free cooling is enabled, disabled above 26. Then if the timer is left to count, every 15sec on the timer a ventilator is set to DAY, otherwise if the timer is reset to zero, the ventilators are set to NIGHT.

I think something that's happening with the energy calcs, the total heating load is greater than the service, so they set a target of 300kw (total service is 800a 208v 3ph), and if that is reached they turn off stage 3 on the ventilators (3stg heat), which would potentially save around 50kw. The same if their monthly kwh target is being overrun. The second part doesn't make so much sense as you say...if they figure it saves money they should be doing it all the time regardless? So ya there must have been a source (137CDEM) to get that usage information.

Make sense? Verifying Im understanding this correctly.


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## sprdave

Soo saying all that, I would tend to agree with starting over, probably end up easier than trying to edit and hopefully cleaner. Although you would keep the points you're going to use right?

I imagine what we're after is to be able to turn on heat manually and possibly some control over temperature with limits. Not sure how best..possibly could use the breaker to turn on. With the ventilators, the room sensor's night override maybe could be used, with it normally in NIGHT at an OFF or minimal setting until the override is pressed. Not sure about the electric heat, would be nice just to have a manual switch to enable it during occupancy.

The energy demand maybe is still a consideration too. Would need the meter to do their way. Although there may be a virtual way to program that (like if too many ventilators are running full, cut back the stg 3 again).

The job book is from SBT in Stoney Creek, maybe that's the closest one? Unless there's one in Kitchener, Brampton or something (Owen Sound area here). Can't find locations on their website, just give a contact form for Canada. I saw Datamate instructions for connecting directly to TEC, didn't realize it's does the MBC too. But can't find a download...


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## sprdave

Im wondering if there's is something that could be added, for them to let's say, manually activate the heating in the "electricheat" zone(s) (or even ventilators - but may be sufficient to use the room sensors), in an occupied/unoccupied for example. Maybe a switch or something. Even if something had to be bought. Like some inputs to the MBC or adding a piece of equipment like a TEC.


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## MoscaWD

If your stats have the push button you can reference it in programming I believe it's called di override switch but I'll have to check the subpoint log to verify for sure. Depending what's landed on the tec you can add to it


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## sprdave

The room sensors on the TECs have the push button (night override), and there is a subpoint
[19] I OVRD SW OFF -N- NONE
and it says OFF, but the heater started up when I pressed it on a Saturday. So maybe Im not understanding something. (unless that's indicating it's been pressed, not if enabled).
I was wondering also about the areas without TECs, like inputs to the MBC, to turn on heating.

Another thing is, it keeps coming up about the school changing a bunch of air (in reference to the high heating costs - Im not sure how much they realize they still need fresh air), and to the ventilators bringing in a bunch and closing that off. They're going to want something done about that, but Im not sure how much of that is really happening.
I see in the subpoint log, when the unit was running:
10] :OADPR MINPOS 0.0 PCT -N- NONE
[62] :OA DMPR POS 0.0 PCT -N- NONE
That seems to me that the damper is closed. Or maybe there is still some at 0 PCT. Not sure how that part functions, it must open to bring in cool air on free cooling?


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## MoscaWD

DI OVRD SWITCH is used to temporarily put it in day mode when the regular schedule isnt being used 

[20] :OVRD TIME sets how long its in day mode for.
[21] :NGT OVRD lets you know its the switch that has it in day mode
[29] AY.NGT lets you know when its the zone that has it scheduled on.

You can still use the DI Switch to do other programming besides just a day override.

As for the outside air damper, the min position should be at 15% for ashrae standards. If you have figured out how to change the initial setpoints you can do it from the front end.


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## sprdave

AH I found an owner's manual for a TEC, helpful, more info to stare at
http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/6/6a3aaffe-580f-4010-b5b3-9c92d5f43fdc.pdf


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## sprdave

MoscaWD said:


> As for the outside air damper, the min position should be at 15% for ashrae standards. If you have figured out how to change the initial setpoints you can do it from the front end.


It looks to me they had it set for 0%, unless Im not looking right, meaning they weren't bringing in outside air during heating?
Do I have it right that the TEC automatically controls the damper for cooling? Im not seeing anything that controls the damper yet, besides the FREE CLG enable.

I see the 19: DI OVRD SW indicates actually pressing the button, where as you say 21 indicates in override.


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## MoscaWD

If you set the min damper position it should always be at 15%, be it in heating or cooling. The only time it adjusts outside of that is when free cooling is enabled, then when it is in cooling mode it will modulate the outside air damper to bring in cooler air, usually to the ma temp set point to cool the room down. Once it's back in heating mode it should close back down to 15%. If you look at the application pdf I posted from google earlier it will give you the sequence everything goes through.


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## sprdave

Your link to the TEC spec sheet doesn't really say about the sequence other than features. The pdf I just found has some application info, so Im getting a better idea.
I just find it strange that the school didn't seem to be bringing in OA.


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## sprdave

I was able to set the STPT DIAL. I tried all combos of YES, ON, finally using "1" worked for me.

There is a 2-wire going from FLN 3 to the main (service) splitter. They must have had the kwh/kw meter there. Counting back the weeks of 0kwh, it seems the 2nd week of March, around when the (purchase) deal was made. That's not nice, taking out a functional piece of the system (for limiting the service demand). Would have been nice to have but probably expensive.

Im wondering if an input module(s) would be an effective way to connect some sort of manual switches to enable an "occupied" mode in the "electricheat" zones. Maybe the PTM6.4D20? If I understand correctly, that would hook up to dry contacts like a single-pole switch. I could try find out how much it would cost for some, maybe look for used ones.

For the unit ventilators, Im thinking the night override could be used and set for a couple hours. Or if I understand the DI 2/wall switch input, a (single-pole) switch could be connected there, if worth the trouble.


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## Wirenuting

MoscaWD said:


> If you set the min damper position it should always be at 15%, be it in heating or cooling. The only time it adjusts outside of that is when free cooling is enabled, then when it is in cooling mode it will modulate the outside air damper to bring in cooler air, usually to the ma temp set point to cool the room down. Once it's back in heating mode it should close back down to 15%. If you look at the application pdf I posted from google earlier it will give you the sequence everything goes through.


I didn't see if he has electric heat in them AHU's. If it's hot water or steam they might go 0 on AO to keep the LTD from tripping. We do that on our coldest days and set min OA at 20-25% otherwise. 
I wonder how many points are on the AHU's? Ie, LTD, DPS, MAD and so on.


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## sprdave

Wirenuting said:


> I didn't see if he has electric heat in them AHU's. If it's hot water or steam they might go 0 on AO to keep the LTD from tripping. We do that on our coldest days and set min OA at 20-25% otherwise.
> I wonder how many points are on the AHU's? Ie, LTD, DPS, MAD and so on.


The unit ventilators are all and only electric heat, 3 stages, 10-16kw. In fact the whole school is 100% electric, no water/steam/etc.

There's a subpoint log of a TEC in post #43, If that's what you're after


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## Wirenuting

sprdave said:


> The unit ventilators are all and only electric heat, 3 stages, 10-16kw. In fact the whole school is 100% electric, no water/steam/etc.
> 
> There's a subpoint log of a TEC in post #43, If that's what you're after


MoscaWD is walking you thru everything with the TEC's and programming. 
He can do it in his sleep. LoL


I was just wondering about the type of heat, I missed or forgot what you had said earlier. It's old age. 


For us it's steam and or hot water. Most have mixed air dampers to recirculate the buildings air. We have more data points for them and more sensors. 
Tripping off line in the winter is a never ending battle.


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## MoscaWD

You can drop a DI on any of the remaining DI blocks if there is one. Looking at the photo's from the first post it looks like there might be space in the top right block, that is normally where the DI's go. You can literally drop a normal house switch (dry contact) with a wire on it(wire diagram on the side of the module) and it would work as a DI contact for when heat is enabled. 

I know of a few sites where they use occupancy sensors with dry contacts, tie it into a DI on the TEC and write some program to turn up the heating setpoint whenever someone is in there. (not always the best if it takes too long to heat up)

As for the meter, I'm not surprised if a school is using a meter to do that much work for energy conservation, it was probably a very expensive meter, as I do not think I have ever personally tied one into the FLN before. Usually it is just a pulse meter that counts up every KW, L ect.


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## sprdave

The PTM inputs could go on the left of the MBC too right? Or do they just go on the right? Im thinking we may want to add a couple temp. sensors, a couple rooms are based on a sensor in a totally different room. Any recommendations on where to get used (inexpensive) parts?

Im thinking I should check if they are (will be) demand billed...They might be in for a surprise if they are, it may make having a KW meter feasible to reduce demand. Any recommendations on a KW meter for such? I wonder if they had something like the Siemens 4300 power meter (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Siemens-4300...C-1200-4300-Display-Module-Used-/281461558094)


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## MoscaWD

Where you land the wires is very important, I said the top right because that one is a DI block, I believe its a 4D20 block up there. On the left hand side are your DO's, this is where your relays are generally controlled out of. You can probably find more parts ect on ebay than anywhere else. You can try the Siemens Cambridge office but as the parts are discontinued they will more than likely be more expensive than used third party items. 

You can add as many sensors as you want, but it has to match what your block will take, a 1k RTD room sensor has to go on a 1K block, or a 10k to a 10k or 100k to 100k. They do not have to be Siemens sensors but the RTD must match the right input (or a 4-20mA signal to a AO 4-20 input block)

I hate metering. Period. I find it hard to set up and most meters don't seem to like pulse counting so well. Your best bet is to contact a utility or a metering company and let them know what you have, and have them supply the drawings for what you need. I know union gas always gives us exactly what we need for gas metering and they back it up if it doesn't work. If they are going for demand hours, and you want to cut back on the running time, Schedule the electric heat off for the most part except for weekends and after 7. There is a lot you can do with schedules to make it work for you.


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## sprdave

I looked at the top/right ptm and it's 2D20. My question was, do the inputs have to go on the right or could a 4D20 go on the left of the MBC?


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## MoscaWD

The physical placement doesn't really matter, it's the address keys that make the difference. You can place the blocks anywhere it was just best practice to keep inputs right and outputs left


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## sprdave

I think they are in for a surprise... I found out they are on demand billing, and I looked up the rates, it comes to $16 per KW of demand. Plus $170 monthly fee. Plus energy. Don't think they are prepared for the bills. (A 600A 208v service capacity is 216kw if my math is right, heating equipment around 240kw).

The school must have had a Siemens DEM 1000/2000 power meter. It connects to an APOGEE FLN and looks it would be semi-easy to install.
https://mall.industry.siemens.com/mall/en/nz/Catalog/Products/10214241?tree=CatalogTree


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## sprdave

Im just thinking about the room sensor button...maybe a program could be made to activate the heating by holding the button for a couple seconds, and deactivate again by any press (or after a time if it's not pressed). 

All the possibilities with programming.


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## MoscaWD

The occupancy button isn't the greatest in practice, trust me on this your better off getting an occupancy switch off some sort...


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## sprdave

I realized, not sure how I missed this, that the DPU has 12 inputs along with the 12 outputs. Here I was looking at input PTMs.

When I was there on the weekend (night mode), I noticed a fair buzz from one contactor box. After some checking found wiring to a contactor crossed power supplies. There's 3 DC supplies that feed the contactors via the DPU. The negative from one and positive from another was connected to this contactor. I was also discovering that a number of the heaters(circuits) are being controlled by obviously wrong zones, like 1/3 of them. I don't know if someone would have messed with it or it was like this from the start and nobody noticed...but if we stay with it, it needs some fixing.


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