# AFCI nuisance tripping



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

crk1a said:


> short of me telling the lady to buy a new vacuum...Thanks


Try another one,vacuum. seriously.But don't buy one,
The only equipment problem that I have had with AFCIs' (not CH) were 110 v smokes. Found 2 once that the breaker did not like.
most likely a fault in the equipment. Perhaps the surge of the unit starting.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I've had problems with vacuums and AFCIs before myself.

Luckily, these were larger homes with a bath in each bedroom, so I could suggest using the bath receptacle to plug the vacuum into.


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## kawaikfx400 (Jul 14, 2008)

*issues*

We've had a ton of issues with arc faults, espically when people are doing finish carpentry, its the windings in the motors of alot of these things that arc when started and throw the breaker. Had an inspector tell us 2 weeks ago, once its inspected do what ever you want, leave em in, take em out, whatever. haha. But ya we've had alot of issues. One house actually had to replace a handful of them, homeowner would leave, come home a few hours later and a handful of arc faults would be tripped.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

I say nice try, but the problem is actually with the breakers. Are these vacuums and power tools causing or creating arc faults? …No! 
Are they causing 30 mA ground faults? …No!
AFCI’s are truly untested, unproven, unreliable and unnecessary technology that has been foisted onto the electrical trade and it’s customers. The original series AFCI’s were a pant load and the new Combo AFCI’s are even more so. They are as close to 100% pure BS as you will find anywhere. They are in no way as significant or equivalent in importance as the development of the GFCI was or is like so many attempt to relate and to compare them to. All of the laboratory and field-testing for these is biased, irrelevant and useless. 

If the NFPA really wants to save lives, they should find a way to limit the effect of portable electric space heaters in old buildings with already antiquated wiring systems, such as by lowering the wattage ratings that these can be manufactured at. 
The annual onslaught of fires from the use of these because of overloaded electrical wiring and contact with combustibles will begin next month, when the weather starts getting colder and fuel prices continue to rise. Should be a banner year!


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree with KayJay.


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## kawaikfx400 (Jul 14, 2008)

*h*

Its all about the manufacturers. They make these products and then push them into the code book to make money. Just like tamper resistant plugs, joke,same with having arc faults everywhere,joke. Just another way for someone else to make money.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Those early AFCI breakers are mostly junk. In most cases where we had nuisance tripping like you described, replacing the breakers solved the problem.

We had one case where the vacuum worked on one bedroom circuit, but tripped the breaker when plugged into the next bedroom circuit. Replacing the offending AFI breaker fixed that one. :blink:

We often times have had AFI's tripping with no apparent load on them. Before taking the circuit apart, we have learned to remove all load wires from the breaker and test again. *Too often the blasted thing will trip out with no wires attached to it at all! * 

These were all Cutler-Hammer Eaton products, the instigator (read: LOBBYISTS) who force-fed these into the _Code_!


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I agree with the others, arc-fault breakers are just another way manufacturers have legislated the use of their products. Or should I say legislated their profits!

It seems these days that just about anything can be sold in the name of safety, and our elected imbeciles will force it upon the public, whether we like it or not. There seems to be an awful lot of safety theater, safety products, safety talk, etc. which is nothing more than a smokescreen behind which the government gains even more control of the people. 

20 years ago it was environmentalism. The California wildfires,, among other disasters, have proved the foolishness of the concept of 'Rule By Zealots'. 

The same idiocy is happening to our trade, and the victims (that'd be you and me) have been rendered completely powerless to oppose it. 

Sadly, Rob


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

We have had a lot of problems with Cutler Hammer's AFI's too. I don't like any of Cutler Hammer's products...SQ-D all the way.


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

I am out on an older drilling rig. They have a living quarters house with a single phase three wire panel. The place was once a deer lease. 

The original feed pot coming in was a 25 KVA single phase one. So, the single phase 45 KVA dry transformer we are using to feed the building now isn't too much different. 

The problem with this thing which more than likely was there to begin with the older service is that a GE panel has a main disconnect breaker that keeps nuisance tripping when they go to use both the wash room and the AC at the same time.

The AC system runs from a two pole 40 Amp breaker to the condenser unit outside and a single phase 30 Amp breaker to the evaporator unit up in the attic. The wash room has its own 40 amp two pole breaker that feeds a dryer and a reasonable size washing machine.

None of the smaller breakers are dropping nor the main disconnect is falling when either set of items are run by themselves. But, when the AC and the washing machine and or, dryer are used at the same time, the main disconnect often falls. But, sometimes it doesn't.

40+40+30=110

Main disconnect breaker is a 215 AMP two pole unit.

Do you think that this main disconnect is too small for the loads placed upon it and may have been a problem all along? There are a couple of other 20 amp breakers in the panel as well for other loads in the building.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

musibike said:


> I am out on an older drilling rig. They have a living quarters house with a single phase three wire panel. The place was once a deer lease.
> 
> The original feed pot coming in was a 25 KVA single phase one. So, the single phase 45 KVA dry transformer we are using to feed the building now isn't too much different.
> 
> ...


These stated currents,
are they running currents ?
Are you taking into account starting currents ?
Starting currents can easily exceed two times the running current.
Maybe try a slower trip breaker
As we call them here in Australia - "slow-blow".
These are designed to cope with short term overloads
as can be experienced with motors starting.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Anytime I have encountered this issue a newer arc fault has solved the problem 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

This is what I expected. The unit is an older ARC FAULT type device. A new one will more than likely take care of it.

They have also put in four new computers with large switching power supplies in them. That leading power factor could be goofing things up for this disconnect maybe as well.

At least the AC works. They just have to go and wash in town for now.

So, I will head over to the electric parts store Monday and swap it out.

Thanks guys.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

musibike said:


> This is what I expected. The unit is an older ARC FAULT type device. A new one will more than likely take care of it.
> 
> They have also put in four new computers with large switching power supplies in them. That leading power factor could be goofing things up for this disconnect maybe as well.
> 
> ...


There is no such thing as a 215 amp arc fault breaker. Your question has nothing to do with arc faults.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Jhellwig said:


> There is no such thing as a 215 amp arc fault breaker. Your question has nothing to do with arc faults.


I'm thinkin it's a GE-THQP215 :laughing:
*
*


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

emtnut said:


> I'm thinkin it's a GE-THQP215 :laughing:
> *
> *


Could be but he is talking about a dryer and ac and tripping the main. I have no idea what he wants.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Jhellwig said:


> Could be but he is talking about a dryer and ac and tripping the main. I have no idea what he wants.


I have no idea either ... hopefully the 'electric parts store' will fix him up :thumbsup:


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

This thing is bigger than a dual 15 Amp breaker. It has a couple #2 wires going to it from the main feeder panel in the generator house.

If the parts house don't have a reasonable replacement I will shoot a picture of it and post it here this week.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Are you an actual electrician?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Just post pictures anyways! Lets see what ya got!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Normally on threads like this it's "IBTL", this one seems more like 'IBTF' F fer fire!

Thread from 2008 and I took flak about one from 2014, geez!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I love some of the older threads too! Especially with active users, just scared to post in em.... So I drop a like to prove I was there. Lol


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

I here that these breakers cause nothing but issues. Rumour has it we will start using them over here in 2018. 

What would be the repercussions if you were to remove the AFCI thing and install a standard MCB/RCD?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Essex said:


> I here that these breakers cause nothing but issues. Rumour has it we will start using them over here in 2018.
> 
> What would be the repercussions if you were to remove the AFCI thing and install a standard MCB/RCD?


No repercussions on anything if you don't get caught....


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Accidental duplicate....:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

8 year old zombie thread! 





Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

Jhellwig said:


> Are you an actual electrician?


 Does the POPE ride on an actual GREEN ELEPHANT?


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

musibike said:


> Does the POPE ride on an actual GREEN ELEPHANT?


You do know that means you answered no to my question right?


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

But, my elephant has a leading power factor corrector on him.

13.8KV leotards too.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Right......ibtl


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jhellwig said:


> Right......ibtl


So many times lately the lock just doesn't seem to come anywhere near fast enough. The words "Professional EC forum" just seem so disregarded.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Essex said:


> What would be the repercussions if you were to remove the AFCI thing and install a standard MCB/RCD?


Dead babies will pile up in the streets Mr Essex........:whistling2:~CS~


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Dead babies will pile up in the streets Mr Essex........:whistling2:~CS~


Shot to death by radical American fundamentalists ?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So many times lately the lock just doesn't seem to come anywhere near fast enough. The words "Professional EC forum" just seem so disregarded.


You know, you bitch when the mods do their jobs and you bitch when they don't. Pick a side.....


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> You know, you bitch when the mods do their jobs and you bitch when they don't. Pick a side.....


No I bitched when one MOD was over doing his job.

Do you like seeing homeowners and salesmen on here?


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## musibike (Jul 9, 2016)

I am an electrical Engineer. I have designed many and have patents on some of the stuff you all use. But, even guys like you can offer advice to senior electrical guys like me who use an open mind and learn from all. 

If your group doesn't communicate with people because of a label that is fine with me. Nobody needs to BITCH to anyone else like a moderator. I will dismiss myself from your CLICK.

No sweat.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

musibike said:


> I am an electrical Engineer. I have designed many and have patents on some of the stuff you all use. But, even guys like you can offer advice to senior electrical guys like me who use an open mind and learn from all.
> 
> If your group doesn't communicate with people because of a label that is fine with me. Nobody needs to BITCH to anyone else like a moderator. I will dismiss myself from your CLICK.
> 
> No sweat.


For an engineer that designed some stuff we use you seem to have very limited knowledge of basic electrical principles.

Funny guys like us can troubleshoot and fix the problem you have quick fast and in a hurry!


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