# Work rules.



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Go for it bro, there is no limit. In order to be a true master electrician must also be a plumber, a carpenter and a HVAC tech. I had to frame a 3' wall for my panel yesterday since the carpenters were MIA. I've hit copper and pex lines , and repair themwhen needed. All these other aspects of the trade are often associated to our job.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I do that stuff and more all the time.... but I have no pesky union issues to get in my way.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

why should I have to pay a carpenter or a plumber if you cant fix it hit the road and I'll replace you with someone who can and probably for less money as tight as jobs are you better get down on your knees and kiss my @ss to keep your job and supply your tools....this is the reality that is soon to be.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> why should I have to pay a carpenter or a plumber if you cant fix it hit the road and *I'll replace you with someone who can* and probably for less money as tight as jobs are you better get down on your knees and kiss my @ss to keep your job and supply your tools*....this is the reality that is soon to be*.


The supply of people who CAN, is in extremely short supply. The reality is, once the CAN's go work outside of our system, and do things they way they want, we're screwed. But I won't be a part of WE then. It'll be you, standing with your d1ck in your hand, and I'll be running work, telling a bunch of CAN'Ts what to do.


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm an operating engineer (union), have an electrician's license, high pressure boiler license, refrigeration license (for operations), as well as my universal cert from EPA for refrigeration repair. small power plant, is all operating engineers. we handle all of it. I think you should get as much knowledge as you should & be capable of all you can be proficient at. I realize it's a different reality especially when doing construction/new work, even more so if union. but, the more you know, the more valuable you are. and it makes sense to be able to take care of things that directly effect your work w/out starting a friggin cross crafting war. the people that hire us don't always have bottomless pockets.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

millelec said:


> I'm an operating engineer (union), have an electrician's license, high pressure boiler license, refrigeration license (for operations), as well as my universal cert from EPA for refrigeration repair. small power plant, is all operating engineers. we handle all of it. I think you should get as much knowledge as you should & be capable of all you can be proficient at. I realize it's a different reality especially when doing construction/new work, even more so if union. but, the more you know, the more valuable you are. and it makes sense to be able to take care of things that directly effect your work w/out starting a friggin cross crafting war. the people that hire us don't always have bottomless pockets.


Impressive......:thumbsup::notworthy:

I was told by a friend when I was 17, that a man designed and built it any man with a bit of common sense and mechanical ability should be able to fix it. Of course now a days it may be designed by a computer.


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

brian john said:


> Impressive......:thumbsup::notworthy:
> 
> I was told by a friend when I was 17, that a man designed and built it any man with a bit of common sense and mechanical ability should be able to fix it. Of course now a days it may be designed by a computer.


Thank you, Brian! Navy trained me pretty well, so will credit it w/a lot of the knowledge I have. I watched my dad while growing up, he was a science teacher that would repair/fix/build things electrical/mechanical. He told me pretty much the same thing you just said


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> The supply of people who CAN, is in extremely short supply. The reality is, once the CAN's go work outside of our system, and do things they way they want, we're screwed. But I won't be a part of WE then. It'll be you, standing with your d1ck in your hand, and I'll be running work, telling a bunch of CAN'Ts what to do.


 I don't know how you come up with the idea that the "cans " are in short supply. Trades schools are spitting them out daily.I think you miss the big picture as an employer my bottom line is profit and if i can get the job done just as well for a dollar less I'm going to do it ,it's not personal its just business. I don't care if you are paid well and have benefits and H&W my thoughts are on the bottom line at the end of the day are we in the red or are we in the black. If I can pay good wages and bennies and stay in the black fine and good but if I can't then I will do what needs done to stay in the black.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I don't know how you come up with the idea that the "cans " are in short supply.


I think there is a big difference between a trade school graduate and a mechanic that can do it all. The point is to know when it is better to sub something out or go ahead do it in house.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> I think there is a big difference between a trade school graduate and a mechanic that can do it all. The point is to know when it is better to sub something out or go ahead do it in house.


 the phrase "jack of all trades master of none" comes to mind when talking about the "do it all" mechanic. I don't think we are talking about patching a hole in the sheetrock but bidding the jod so the electrician hangs the sheet rock.Now before someone does the but...but..but.. thing this is just an analogy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> the phrase "jack of all trades master of none" comes to mind when talking about the "do it all" mechanic. I don't think we are talking about patching a hole in the sheetrock but bidding the jod so the electrician hangs the sheet rock.Now before someone does the but...but..but.. thing this is just an analogy.


Many times the Davis BAcon companies are GC's that do it all, at least around here.

I am a Jack Of All Trades, and a master license holder in one. I have built 2 houses ground up and the third total remodel, down to bare walls inside and out.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Many times the Davis BAcon companies are GC's that do it all, at least around here.
> 
> I am a Jack Of All Trades, and a master license holder in one. I have built 2 houses ground up and the third total remodel, down to bare walls inside and out.


 I saw a guy on TV eat glass.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> *I think there is a big difference between a trade school graduate and a mechanic that can do it all.* The point is to know when it is better to sub something out or go ahead do it in house.


Both points. I was trying to say when you have a mechanic that can do it all, we should be allowed to take advantage of that. That is how better craftsmanship gets passed on, when we are allowed to demonstrate those skills in front of others, especially apprentices. 

There's only one way to be the best, and that's not to *strictly* limit the scope of a man's specialty. That IMO is why the best union foremen are all organized hands.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> I don't think we are talking about patching a hole in the sheetrock but bidding the jod so the electrician hangs the sheet rock..


No EC would ever bid sheetrock.... Where do you live, Nevernever land? Everything you've ever said runs contrary to all my experience. WTF?? Are you even an electrician?? What rock have you been living under??



brian john said:


> I am a Jack Of All Trades, and a master license holder in one. I have built 2 houses ground up and the third total remodel, down to bare walls inside and out.


I rest my mo-fo case. Re-wire, meet a mechanic that can do it all.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> No EC would ever bid sheetrock.... Where do you live, Nevernever land? Everything you've ever said runs contrary to all my experience. WTF?? Are you even an electrician?? What rock have you been living under??
> 
> 
> 
> I rest my mo-fo case. Re-wire, meet a mechanic that can do it all.


 What an idiot you are I specifically pointed out this was just an analogy I knew that even then some jerkwad would do exactly what you did 
TRY READING THE WHOLE POST!!!!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> *TRY READING THE WHOLE POST!*!!!


I re-read your post..... If your an hourly employee whose an electrician, and you don't want your hourly wage to hang the sheetrock back where you gained access and float some spackle across, then WTF?

Let the contractor bid for me hanging a days worth of rock, that's awesome and a break in the rhythm.

Now if he wants me to patch a pex line that I nailed while drilling, that's fine too, I'll fix my eff-ups on my own time. It's not like I haven't effed up bad. When the sh1t happens, the sh1t happens... and if it's all my fault, I will make it right.

Rewire, you live in a dark, negative place, it sucks, you're stuck in reverse. I expect the best from people, why do you always expect the worst?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> I re-read your post..... If your an hourly employee whose an electrician, and you don't want your hourly wage to hang the sheetrock back where you gained access and float some spackle across, then WTF?
> 
> Let the contractor bid for me hanging a days worth of rock, that's awesome and a break in the rhythm.
> 
> ...


 You do realize that what you advocate is for us not to have a trade.You want us to become glorified maintenance men.Are you a sheet rocker or an electrician or both? Why should you be paid as an electrician if sheetrockers get less.I dont think you really get it . 
as for people I look for neither the bad nor the good my only expectation of people is that they will always be people.I live in a bright sunny place unfortunatly you just view it from a dark one.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

With the economy as it is, you should know we better learn some maintenance techniques. I am trying to say we shouldn't be afraid of new skills. The only people fearful are the ones who have to push an old skill out of their tiny brain to fit a new skill in.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> With the economy as it is, you should know we better learn some maintenance techniques. I am trying to say we shouldn't be afraid of new skills. The only people fearful are the ones who have to push an old skill out of their tiny brain to fit a new skill in.


 Of course the other side of that coin is to pick a speciality.I have been in areas were the carpenter does the electric the roofer does the plumbing and the landscaper installs tthe A/C all that happens is wages go down. Who do you think commands the bigger payday the General Practitioner or the Brain Sergeon.


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## tduncanlu1077 (Jan 26, 2011)

I feel sorry for the sheetrockers that are going hungry because you did their job. That's someones living hanging there. I know times are tough and some people get job scared, but where do you draw the line? What's next you using your personal truck without comp? Or how about babysitting the GC's kids?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

tduncanlu1077 said:


> I feel sorry for the sheetrockers that are going hungry because you did their job. That's someones living hanging there. I know times are tough and some people get job scared, but where do you draw the line? What's next you using your personal truck without comp? Or how about babysitting the GC's kids?



I wouldn't mind baby sitting the GC's 17 year old. I wonder if we could play doctor or house..........Oh, f*ck the sheetrockers, there local steps on the toes of every single trade in my city, there not even affiliated with the rest of the building trades or the afl-cio.

I wonder if they feel bad for you when your outta work and the "sheetrockers" are running conduit for solar panels.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Get real, if you are working new construction or doing renovations and buildouts you better have guys that can fix/patch and repair the eff ups. Patch sheetrock yes, replace a drain yes, operate a backhoe/skidsteer yes. What are you going to do call PM and have them get a bid and contract to fix that crap? Oh and take the day off and wait until it is done, I mean after all we want to keep the company in the black.
Miller, you didn't need to get rewire started or maybe should not stop and he will go away again:whistling2:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> Get real, if you are working new construction or doing renovations and buildouts you better have guys that can fix/patch and repair the eff ups. ..... I mean after all we want to keep the company in the black.


Well said. There should be no directive limiting what we can do. I do some paperwork and computer time on my own computer at home. According to the official line, I should be provided a laptop and a van to carry it. I've had company laptops, they suck balls, I'm not important enough to get one less than four years old. Save everyone a hassle with these rules, and we'll make a buck instead of wasting two bucks.

If you're not giving some extra to help see your employer succeed in this economy, maybe you deserve to sit at home and think about it, we're competing against people who are compensated seventy-cents on the dollar what we make. They see our rules, and laugh all the way to the bank. We don't need to lower the bar, we need to choose where the bar is working against us and enable people who want to contribute.

I know well a non-union mechanical GC who does only PW work. They are unhampered by all in-fighting for turf by the sheetmetal-workers, plumbers, pipefitters, and carpenters. The men who work there more or less stick to their craft, but without restrictions they win almost every white whale job they go after.


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## tduncanlu1077 (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm just a 5th yr turning out in may btw. The commercial jobs have always been manned up with the pesky carpenters and plumbers, always getting in our way and asking us to fix extension cords and whatever else they screw up. Not to mention they other trades effing our boxes and circuits. Will they fix their electrical uh-ohs, I hope not. I don't want someone putting some hack piperun next to my stuff makes the whole rack look like he'll. Do the other trades get offended when their work gets reworked by someone else, I absolutely believe so. I've worked around some of the guys for several years and they will get on my ass for pulling some stuff like that. Not to mention my jw.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

tduncanlu1077 said:


> I'm just a 5th yr turning out in may btw. The commercial jobs have always been manned up with the pesky carpenters and plumbers, always getting in our way and asking us to fix extension cords and whatever else they screw up. Not to mention they other trades effing our boxes and circuits. Will they fix their electrical uh-ohs, I hope not. I don't want someone putting some hack piperun next to my stuff makes the whole rack look like he'll. Do the other trades get offended when their work gets reworked by someone else, I absolutely believe so. I've worked around some of the guys for several years and they will get on my ass for pulling some stuff like that. Not to mention my jw.


Get use to it, that is your job in a round about way, to deal with all the trades. You think they are pesky, they may think less of you. Life is better if you work with them.

Every project is different, I have been on jobs where the union carpenters protested us having a hammer. They wanted us to get them, sign a work order and for them to do any nailing. A couple cases of beer addressed that issue.

The fact is there is some middle ground on every job and that is you job to figure it out.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Unions have work rules for a reason. On large projects you will have a variety of trades each with a different scope of work and a different scale of pay.When a union contractor bids they do it acording to their scope of work.Th e electrician bids the electrical the plumber bids the plumbig the mechanical bids the mechanical . Each craft bids their work and were you have overlaps work rules help define who should bid each portion.

If you are a non union one man show then you will probably fix your screw ups you may even do non electrical work. Thats fine if you want to water down the craft and keep depressing wages.I know several GCs who have gone to an in house electrician/drywaller rather than sub out the work.

One reason I dont put my man on a backhoe is if I did then I would need to add that code to my workmans comp which would increase the cost and if I dont add it and the man gets hurt running the backhoe I dont have coverage just something for the do it alls to think about.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

There's a term for someone who can do it all.... Called a handyman.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

My 2 cents is that the thread went side ways. I don't believe for the most part anyone believes that they want to do all the work of every trade (except some GC's) but, will perform work related to the scope of their trade/contract/bid/specs. On large commercial work more and more trades are working together to keep costs down for all, and as Miller said (the best union foremans are organized hands). This is because they understand the spirit of cooperation instead of the deconstruction of other trades work and work slow downs costing every one money and future work. For the small guys how many jobs do you thing you lost because of disclaimers like, not responsible for patching, repairing etc etc. My bid includes others that I have no control over to come behind me if I screw something up. Times are hard but getting better. Wage watering down comes from more sources than just people making simple corrections/repairs and trying to improve efficiency. How much work is not being started because not only is material is increasing but local area wages are trying to increase, so companies and private people just don't start the work. How can you help get these people moving forward again?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> My 2 cents is that the thread went side ways. I don't believe for the most part anyone believes that they want to do all the work of every trade (except some GC's) but, will perform work related to the scope of their trade/contract/bid/specs. On large commercial work more and more trades are working together to keep costs down for all, and as Miller said (the best union foremans are organized hands). This is because they understand the spirit of cooperation instead of the deconstruction of other trades work and work slow downs costing every one money and future work. For the small guys how many jobs do you thing you lost because of disclaimers like, not responsible for patching, repairing etc etc. My bid includes others that I have no control over to come behind me if I screw something up. Times are hard but getting better. Wage watering down comes from more sources than just people making simple corrections/repairs and trying to improve efficiency. How much work is not being started because not only is material is increasing but local area wages are trying to increase, so companies and private people just don't start the work. How can you help get these people moving forward again?


 Organized hands make the best formen because they are use to supplying thier own knee pads and vaseline :whistling2:.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Organized hands make the best formen because they are use to supplying thier own knee pads and vaseline :whistling2:.


Yeah, to see what the hall whores are willing to do to each other to stay on the job site instead of riding the bench:whistling2:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

rlc3854 said:


> Yeah, to see what the hall whores are willing to do to each other to stay on the job site instead of riding the bench:whistling2:


 maybe the young shop rockets but the tramps know thier is always another job :thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> but the tramps know thier is always another job :thumbsup:


Rewire, we always knew you was the Flea-daddy. Why don't you put all your brothers to work? What's wrong, not ready for them to suck all the blood out of your pooch and move on to another host?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> My 2 cents...


Another one well put, I had no idea the situation was similar down there as to what it is up here. 

I don't want to blast re-wire and say he lives in his own universe, but it makes me wonder what happened to the guy to make him have such a distinct point-of-view from everybody else after having been in the game so long. Rewire, obviously you've dealt with alot of bad situations and unprofessional people to feel the way you do......


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> Another one well put, I had no idea the situation was similar down there as to what it is up here.
> 
> I don't want to blast re-wire and say he lives in his own universe, but it makes me wonder what happened to the guy to make him have such a distinct point-of-view from everybody else after having been in the game so long. Rewire, obviously you've dealt with alot of bad situations and unprofessional people to feel the way you do......


 You sound like a gangbox baby who now finds himself sitting on the bench.If you don't like the way things are drop your ticket and go look for a non union job were your ideas will be embraced whole heartedly.You want your cake and eat it too.The rules are great when they work in our favor and it sucks when they don't if you can't accept that then take your bat and ball and go home.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> You sound like a gangbox baby who now finds himself sitting on the bench.If you don't like the way things are drop your ticket and go look for a non union job were your ideas will be embraced whole heartedly.You want your cake and eat it too.The rules are great when they work in our favor and it sucks when they don't if you can't accept that then take your bat and ball and go home.


Your local 1 aren't you? Last I heard your market share was single digits.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

slickvic277 said:


> Your local 1 aren't you? Last I heard your market share was single digits.


 Even after this

Doug Martin, executive vice president of the St. Louis Chapter, NECA, said that his 147 NECA members and signatory contractors have seen almost a 40 percent cut in the hours worked by the 3,100 electricians they employ.
Martin said that the new agreement, which went into effect June 1, includes an *8.23 percent cut in wages for the rest of this year*, *increasing to 8.77 percent in Jan*uary. With *benefit cuts* and work rule changes, Martin said the total package represents as much as a 10 percent reduction in the hourly rate paid by IBEW/NECA customers on some projects.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Even after this
> 
> Doug Martin, executive vice president of the St. Louis Chapter, NECA, said that his 147 NECA members and signatory contractors have seen almost a 40 percent cut in the hours worked by the 3,100 electricians they employ.
> Martin said that the new agreement, which went into effect June 1, includes an *8.23 percent cut in wages for the rest of this year*, *increasing to 8.77 percent in Jan*uary. With *benefit cuts* and work rule changes, Martin said the total package represents as much as a 10 percent reduction in the hourly rate paid by IBEW/NECA customers on some projects.


Nothing new for the old timers. Hey rewire what were your concessions in the late 70's early 80's? Locals in southern california were hit with if memory serves me like 20-30% for wages and bennies. Thats when locals started dropping residential wiremen and NECA residential contractors drop them. SOP the world has to correct it's self before it spins out or control.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Rewire, I give up. You're right, and I'm wrong.

I stand corrected, and humbled.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> Rewire, I give up. You're right, and I'm wrong.
> 
> I stand corrected, and humbled.


 took you long enough..:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> took you long enough..:laughing:


 
You do come across as hard headed and arrogant, which means discussions are a lose lose with you. Plus you NEVER seem to be able to answer a question.

Did you attend the Noah School of Salt?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> You do come across as hard headed and arrogant, which means discussions are a lose lose with you. Plus you NEVER seem to be able to answer a question.
> 
> Did you attend the Noah School of Salt?


 I believe what I believe and being wishy washy was never something I would do. I dont seek the approval of others nor do I need it what you call arrogant and hardheaded I call self confidant.I have always answered relavent questions as they apply to the topic being discussed.Funny you of all people should call me arrogant.:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Funny you of all people should call me arrogant.:whistling2:


The difference is Brian actually knows about electrical work, nothing you have posted has ever struck me as being from a guy that knows anything more then the business end of things.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I believe what I believe and being wishy washy was never something I would do. I dont seek the approval of others nor do I need it what you call arrogant and hardheaded I call self confidant.I have always answered relavent questions as they apply to the topic being discussed.Funny you of all people should call me arrogant.:whistling2:


 
I admit I have at times been arrogant in some postings and I have tried to tone it down.....A BIT.

But I will answer ALMOST any question asked.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> I admit I have at times been arrogant in some postings and I have tried to tone it down.


:laughing: It still gives me a chuckle to recollect that post when you told the guy to 'Blow me,' six times... :laughing:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Hey Miller, long time. I agree with your sentiment in this thread, I'm just a bit surprised to see it from you, I guess you're growing :thumbsup:



miller_elex said:


> If you're not giving some extra to help see your employer succeed in this economy, maybe you deserve to sit at home and think about it, we're competing against people who are compensated seventy-cents on the dollar what we make.


That right there is it, the people who give a bit extra are those who not only help the contractor, but get ahead themselves.

I'm still just surprised to see it from the guy who was so venomously against my idea of bringing a second classification into the mix for the guys who are doing more menial/laborer type work. It was all spelled out in that old thread in which you acted like I was completely insane for thinking. 

I'm glad to see you being more of an independent thinker :thumbsup:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> :laughing: It still gives me a chuckle to recollect that post when you told the guy to 'Blow me,' six times... :laughing:


That wasn't that funny, I have feelings ya know


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Welcome back HAX.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> Welcome back HAX.


Thanks buddy :thumbup:


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