# Happy to be IBEW



## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Times are hard for all in the electrical field, people are losing their homes, cars, and ways of life therefore I am so glad I chose to join the IBEW. In 1982 while home for spring break from UGA my mother made an appointment for me to get into IBEW LU#1579 as a summer helper, expecting to just earn a couple of dollars before returning to Athens, but what I found was true Brotherhood. When ever someone got hurt or sick the Brothers and Sisters would gather funds for our memebers in harms way to help them get over hardships of life.After going through the JATC program and then getting out on the road for a few years I went back to Augusta to help organize. It was then that I discovered that we were trying to organize not only to help our fellow Brothers and Sisters but also to help create better wages and conditions for all in the electrical field. The union are why we all enjoy 40 hour work week, child labor laws,OSHA and the list go on and on that most do not realize was created by past union members making sacrifices for all of us to benefit from. So now that times are hard(I have only worked 9 or 10 weeks in over a year) A Brother last week held a cook out in my honor in order to help me pay my rent.God bless the Brothers and Sisters who are there for others and God bless the IBEW.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

That is pretty cool.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Noah, I kinda liked you from the start, but you did go to UGA!

Maybe if I get to know you better, I can overlook that part.

Whats the good word? The hell with GA.

J/K
Welcome to the forum.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

My intent with this thread was an effort to ease the tension we all feel, with the economic hardships it is to easy to point fingers at who is to blame.The roots of unions was created to protect all working class and to increase our monotary gains for our labors through collective bargaining. Over the years both sides have slung mud that is uncalled for and it puts us at odds instead of working together for one common goal of building projects(both the workers and contractors make money for their labors) and every one goes home to their families SAFE and unharmed.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> My intent with this thread was an effort to ease the tension we all feel, with the economic hardships it is to easy to point fingers at who is to blame.The roots of unions was created to protect all working class and to increase our monotary gains for our labors through collective bargaining. Over the years both sides have slung mud that is uncalled for and it puts us at odds instead of working together for one common goal of building projects(both the workers and contractors make money for their labors) and every one goes home to their families SAFE and unharmed.


It sounds like you live in fantasy land.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Peter D said:


> It sounds like you live in fantasy land.


 :sleeping:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> It sounds like you live in fantasy land.


 Join the Union and you can also live in fantasy land.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Join the Union and you can also live in fantasy land.


:sleep1:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:



Peter D. The only ET member who sleeps through half his posts.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Peter D. The only ET member who sleeps through half his posts.


 :laughing::laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Peter D. The only ET member who sleeps through half his posts.


 
:laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Join the Union and you can also live in fantasy land.


 Are you slinging mud because you do not have the will for peace,safety on the job sites,being paid more for your labor? Every one has a choice to join or not to be a union member. I have experienced hardships in the union but overall I have seen the approach of helping one another as a family. We do have problems with politicians making poor decisions just as the rest of society.Some where in time hate will be over ruled by truth.So why are we using time to sling mud at each other instead of trying to solve our issues with that same energy? So while I read some of the one liners just to get to a few valid points, I will state again that I am glad I have had the option of working union and being taught good morals to work and live by.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Are you slinging mud because you do not have the will for peace,safety on the job sites,being paid more for your labor?


Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?

Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago. 
The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not. 

Please don't take offense, but you sound like the typical talking head union promoter. 
I think it is wonderful that you consider the union a "family", and I am glad that things have worked to your benefit, but this does not make everything about the union positive. I actually think the whole "brother" thing is kind of creepy. 
I also think that the average union worker is quite overpaid, and has been for a very long time. Especially in bigger cities. The days of one person making a living wage for a whole family are over. I think it had been too good for too long. 
This is not to say that I think the average non-union worker is paid enough. I just think the disparity between the two is far too great and we need to find a happy medium.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

thats so nice that they helped you out. But why are you renting?


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?
> 
> Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago.
> The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not.
> ...


The average union worker is paid what they are worth, and if they are not worth it they go down the road. At least that is how we roll where I am from. Not only are we paid what we are worth we also fight for your wages as well. We use our political power as a group to raise minimum wages in states across the country, and there isn't a single IBEW member that is paid minimum wage. Our union isn't just about us, it's about the rights of all workers. 

So instead of saying we are creepy, or overpaid, maybe you could say thank you. Thank you for making my job safe, and thank you for the weekend. Yeah we invented the weekend, and before the union was formed 1 out of every 2 electricians died every year. If you want to go back to those days there are plenty of third world countries you could move to...

Realize that both non union and union members are just trying to make a living. We all want the same things in life, a home, family, and to retire with dignity. There isn't a bit of difference between you and I when it comes to what we want out of life, just that I think that it's worth my money to be a union member. 

PS. the IBEW never strikes, and we rarely form picket lines. I've seen one in my whole life, and it was a picture in a newsletter. I would guess you had a bad experience with a picket line, and for that I am sorry. There are bad apples in every group, and you might have run into one of ours.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Are you slinging mud because you do not have the will for peace,safety on the job sites,being paid more for your labor? Every one has a choice to join or not to be a union member. I have experienced hardships in the union but overall I have seen the approach of helping one another as a family. We do have problems with politicians making poor decisions just as the rest of society.Some where in time hate will be over ruled by truth.So why are we using time to sling mud at each other instead of trying to solve our issues with that same energy? So while I read some of the one liners just to get to a few valid points, I will state again that I am glad I have had the option of working union and being taught good morals to work and live by.


 It was a inside joke between Peter and myself. I have worked Union before and prefer to work Union. No mud slinging.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I never had the choice of joining the IBEW. I was not allowed to join because my dad was not a electrician. In the 70's the local in my home town would only take relatives or soon to soon to be relatives. I was interview 5 times.
Now that I have been through the ABC apprenticeship program they tell me that I am overqualified and that this local does not do any industrial work.
The IBEW may look good from the inside looking out but if your on the outside looking in it one of the most unfair organizations in the country.
If a company treated their employees the same the IBEW treated outsiders you would not do business with them.

LC

Think Listen Solve


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?
> 
> Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago.
> The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not.
> ...



Overpaid??? Who the hell are you to decide if someone is over paid? You must be an employer.Only wanting to line your own pockets and the only thing that drives you is greed.

The only person who is allowed to make any money is YOU because you took the risk of being in business.This is the typical crap that I have been force fed for 10 years now from contractors and people like you.

You want as much as possible out of people for as little as you have to put out.

These line of thought is exactly the same as a pimp.You look at labor and see nothing more then a whore for you to use.

Oh by the way,


> Please don't take offense


Way over paid.What a crock of sh*t.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

knomore said:


> The average union worker is paid what they are worth, and if they are not worth it they go down the road. At least that is how we roll where I am from. Not only are we paid what we are worth we also fight for your wages as well. We use our political power as a group to raise minimum wages in states across the country, and there isn't a single IBEW member that is paid minimum wage. Our union isn't just about us, it's about the rights of all workers.
> 
> So instead of saying we are creepy, or overpaid, maybe you could say thank you. Thank you for making my job safe, and thank you for the weekend. Yeah we invented the weekend, and before the union was formed 1 out of every 2 electricians died every year. If you want to go back to those days there are plenty of third world countries you could move to...
> 
> ...



You do understand that your point is falling on def ears don't you?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Overpaid??? Who the hell are you to decide if someone is over paid? You must be an employer.



Yup. Electricians are a dime a dozen. Only the absolute best deserve to be highly paid.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

knomore said:


> So instead of saying we are creepy, or overpaid, maybe you could say thank you. Thank you for making my job safe, and thank you for the weekend. Yeah we invented the weekend, and before the union was formed 1 out of every 2 electricians died every year.


I would say thank you....to the workers and organizers of 40-50 years ago. :thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> The only person who is allowed to make any money is YOU because you took the risk of being in business.This is the typical crap that I have been force fed for 10 years now from contractors and people like you.
> 
> You want as much as possible out of people for as little as you have to put out.
> 
> These line of thought is exactly the same as a pimp.You look at labor and see nothing more then a whore for you to use.


It's so funny. You assume so much, yet you don't know sh*t about me. 
That's fine. :thumbsup:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I never had the choice of joining the IBEW. I was not allowed to join because my dad was not a electrician. In the 70's the local in my home town would only take relatives or soon to soon to be relatives. I was interview 5 times.
> Now that I have been through the ABC apprenticeship program they tell me that I am overqualified and that this local does not do any industrial work.
> I agree mistakes have been made within the union therefore I agree with most of your post. I am 3rd generation IBEW and am well aware of past practices(past). I helped organize in Augusta many years ago and I am well aware of some of ABC's programs and the quality of some of their workers. As far as any hall turning away any electrician today is news to me.If the interest is still there I would recomend calling IBEW International in Waqshington DC if not then its your choice.I would like to thank those who posted productively, we can co-exist without hateful post. The question about my rent, I own an RV and have to pay space rent, electric etc(this is what I meant in my previous post regarding rent) There are pro's and con's in everything in life as well as many different opinions on every subject but why would we close our eyes and mind to the future because of our fears and phobias?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yup. Electricians are a dime a dozen. Only the absolute best deserve to be highly paid.



My definition and your definition of "Highly Paid" is two completely different things.

I'm paid a fair wage,not over paid.All you open shop contractors act like you guy's pay your people fair.The reality is you pay a couple of guy's decent and the rest are treated like sh*t.

You expect people to work themselves to the bone for barely more money then a garbageman.God forbid they ask for a retirement plan now all of a sudden they got entitlement issues.

As long as people think like you there will always be a need for unions.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> It's so funny. You assume so much, yet you don't know sh*t about me.
> That's fine. :thumbsup:


I only know of you by your posts.So that's what I respond to.Your either self employed,a contractor,or you sit in an office figuring out how you can cut someone else's pay so you can increase your own.

So,which one is it?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> My definition and your definition of "Highly Paid" is two completely different things.
> 
> I'm paid a fair wage,not over paid.All you open shop contractors act like you guy's pay your people fair.The reality is you pay a couple of guy's decent and the rest are treated like sh*t.
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup: I agree 100% all the open shop company's around have the attitude that the employees better be thankfull for them, and there are a ton of guys at the company that I work for that haven't had a raise in 3 years.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> :thumbsup: I agree 100% all the open shop company's around have the attitude that the employees better be thankfull for them, and there are a ton of guys at the company that I work for that haven't had a raise in 3 years.


Instead of being grateful for having a job in a recession they are complaining that they haven't gotten a raise? :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Overpaid??? Who the hell are you to decide if someone is over paid?


Who the hell are you to decide if someone is underpaid?

Speedy has as much right to say his opinion as you have to say yours or is it only a one way street?


Its so much fun to watch slick get all wound up.:thumbup:


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I was told by a union electrical contractor that wanted me to come to work for him about the national organizer and the contractor also told me that if I took that route I would probably not ever 
work in my home town.
The contractor was based in a another local and he could not help me get in the local in my home town. But he could put me to work after I got in the local.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

william1978 said:


> :thumbsup: I agree 100% all the open shop company's around have the attitude that the employees better be thankfull for them, and there are a ton of guys at the company that I work for that haven't had a raise in 3 years.



When I was first starting out in this business I was open shop.I remember my first big raise it was $2 per hour I went from 10 to 12 per hour.All the guy's I worked with were jealous! I couldn't believe it!

Then the super told me I needed to call the bosses wife and make sure to thank her.And all this time I thought I earned this raise on my hard work and good ethic.

So I swallowed my pride and called her up to thank her.Man, you should of heard the crap,you would a thought I was a homeless orphan and they took me under there wing as a charity to the world.

As a 5th and 6th period apprentice I made more money then most of there foreman.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Instead of being grateful for having a job in a recession they are complaining that they haven't gotten a raise? :blink:


An excellent point but of course you will be called names for saying it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Who the hell are you to decide if someone is underpaid?
> 
> Speedy has as much right to say his opinion as you have to say yours or is it only a one way street?
> 
> ...



It's certainly 2 ways.It just eats me up when these guy's act like THERE wages are correct and were the ones out of touch.



> Its so much fun to watch slick get all wound up.:thumbup:


I don't know why,but this made me laugh and loud too.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> An excellent point but of course you will be called names for saying it.


It's ok. I get called lots of names anyway. :thumbup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Instead of being grateful for having a job in a recession they are complaining that they haven't gotten a raise? :blink:


 Charlotte has not been a recession for 3 years. They have been in a recession for about a year so where is the raise that they should have gotten. The Union got a dollar raise last Sep. So what is the difference?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Charlotte has not been a recession for 3 years. They have been in a recession for about a year so where is the raise that they should have gotten. The Union got a dollar raise last Sep. So what is the difference?


Where is it written that raises are automatically guaranteed every year? Some years are better than others.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Where is it written that raises are automatically guaranteed every year? Some years are better than others.


 You are correct, but the why can the Union give raise and the open shops not? And the open shops pay scale around here is lower to start anyway.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?
> 
> Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago.
> The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not.
> ...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Where is it written that raises are automatically guaranteed every year? Some years are better than others.



It's written in a contract.

How come it's O.K. for actors,columnists,athletes,and other professionals to work by and agree on contracts but for electricians or labor for that matter to request contracts is completely out of the question?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> I do have an open, positive way of thinking, it would be nice if more people just tried to have a open, positive way of thinking.


Nothing 'open' in your way of thinking, you clearly feel Union is the only way.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Nothing 'open' in your way of thinking, you clearly feel Union is the only way.



Not the only way.Just a better way.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> It's written in a contract.
> 
> How come it's O.K. for actors,columnists,athletes,and other professionals to work by and agree on contracts but for electricians or labor for that matter to request contracts is completely out of the question?


No one has said anything agaist contracts.

It is also funny that the other professionals you mention .... their contracts are often directly tied to performance and not simply guarantees of increases.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> It's written in a contract.
> 
> How come it's O.K. for actors,columnists,athletes,and other professionals to work by and agree on contracts but for electricians or labor for that matter to request contracts is completely out of the question?


I never said it's not OK. I have no problems with unions existing or unions representing electrical workers. None whatsoever. 

I just don't buy the union propaganda. I believe that pay should be based on skills, motivation and merit, not collective bargaining and pay parity regardless of your ability.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Not the only way.Just a better way.


For some sure. For all, no not a chance in hell.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

What does the recession have to do with it? If a guy has been getting a fifty cent raise per year and his company is holding up just fine shouldn't he continue to work his way up the scale? I can understand if the company is going into the crapper sure, no raises, but come on. Not all companies are affected by the economy the way people would think. If the company continues to grow, so should its' employees. Or, you can lose all of your trusted, company trained, exceptional employees, who have helped build your shop to what it is today, and start anew. And that aint gonna be fun. 
It's one of the reasons why open shops succeed, they have long term employees.

I'm talking open, sounding very labor.
:laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> For some sure. For all, no not a chance in hell.





A lot of the shops in my local hire college guy's as estimators and project managers to work in the office.You should here the comments,"What the hell you guy's make almost double then me" and "Must be nice to have your family covered on your bene's" then usually after a while they start asking if they can get into the local:laughing:

So I would say better for _most_.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> A lot of the shops in my local hire college guy's as estimators and project managers to work in the office.You should here the comments,"What the hell you guy's make almost double then me" and "Must be nice to have your family covered on your bene's" then usually after a while they start asking if they can get into the local:laughing:
> 
> So I would say better for _most_.


Someone fresh out of college isn't going to make much to start. In a few years with proven skills he'll be making more than union scale, guaranteed.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I never said it's not OK. I have no problems with unions existing or unions representing electrical workers. None whatsoever.
> 
> I just don't buy the union propaganda. I believe that pay should be based on skills, motivation and merit, not collective bargaining and pay parity regardless of your ability.



That's what your missing,the pay is the minimum negotiated wage.The guy's with Higher degree of skill and knowledge are almost always paid well above scale.

There's electricians in my local making 120K a year and more.There's absolutely nothing wrong with collective bargaining.Remember it's negotiated between the contractors and labor.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> A lot of the shops in my local hire college guy's as estimators and project managers to work in the office.You should here the comments,"What the hell you guy's make almost double then me" and "Must be nice to have your family covered on your bene's" then usually after a while they start asking if they can get into the local:laughing:
> 
> So I would say better for _most_.


Maybe not the country in general but at least better for the gang. 


So do I have this straight?

When we talk about you or your buddies trying to grab every dollar you can, earned or not, that is 'right' and 'noble'. But when a company owner tries to make more money that is 'wrong' and 'evil'.

See I have a hard time with double standards so you have explain it to me, how does that not make you a hypocrite? :whistling2:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Someone fresh out of college isn't going to make much to start. In a few years with proven skills he'll be making more than union scale, guaranteed.



mean while everyone of my friends who have been out of college for a long time now ALL wish they were doing what I do.Non of them is making $47 per hour. Including my wife who went to TEMPLE.


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Overpaid??? Who the hell are you to decide if someone is over paid? You must be an employer.Only wanting to line your own pockets and the only thing that drives you is greed.
> 
> The only person who is allowed to make any money is YOU because you took the risk of being in business.This is the typical crap that I have been force fed for 10 years now from contractors and people like you.



There is a Union Electrical contractor in my area. Because the local has its rates set too high for the area, the Contractor only makes $6 an hour on the electricians labor, and if he would charge accordingly he would get no work due to the rates being too high.

Seems to me thats union greed, not the business owner. His workers make more than him annually, and he has all the headaches, For what a whopping $6 an hour per man because of the local.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Someone fresh out of college isn't going to make much to start. In a few years with proven skills he'll be making more than union scale, guaranteed.


That's not true. How many years? Twenty? Most just out of college estimators make much less than half as much of your average union JW. Even in an open shop, a lot of estimators are electricians who worked their way into that position, where they both estimate and supervise and work as electricians. Which as it is, are the highest paid guys in the shop.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe not the country in general but at least better for the gang.
> 
> 
> So do I have this straight?
> ...



There's a big difference.Our wages are negotiated,remember if the contractors didn't think it was fair they would never sign on.My local has 350 signatory contractors.We must be doing something right.

When you don't have the right of collective bargaining the employer holds all the cards,which is were the difference lies.

I have absolutely nothing against any business owner making money.That's why they went into business and I need them to make money so I can continue to be employed.I'm just not going to work for $12 per hour why the employer charges 95 and owns a vacation home in Florida.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

electro916 said:


> There is a Union Electrical contractor in my area. Because the local has its rates set too high for the area, the Contractor only makes $6 an hour on the electricians labor, and if he would charge accordingly he would get no work due to the rates being too high.
> 
> Seems to me thats union greed, not the business owner. His workers make more than him annually, and he has all the headaches, For what a whopping $6 an hour per man because of the local.



No he just has to compete with the open shop contractors who pay's at best half the rate but yet there bid is only 10% less,that's greed.

if he's making $6 a man profit then that's still profit.But I have to ask since I'm in PA also,What local? Are you a member? If not,how do you know this to be true?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> That's what your missing,the pay is the minimum negotiated wage.The guy's with Higher degree of skill and knowledge are almost always paid well above scale.


I can assure you I'm not missing anything. And again this "minimum negotiated wage" applies to all regardless of their ability. In some areas like NYC this amounts to pay of almost $50 an hour for an electrical parts assembly line worker. That is the problem I have with pay parity. 



> There's electricians in my local making 120K a year and more.There's absolutely nothing wrong with collective bargaining.Remember it's negotiated between the contractors and labor.


And again I never said there was anything wrong with it. I just want nothing to do with that system.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Why I even try.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Why I even try.


Because it's so much fun:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> mean while everyone of my friends who have been out of college for a long time now ALL wish they were doing what I do.Non of them is making $47 per hour. Including my wife who went to TEMPLE.


And your point is? That proves nothing. 



Rudeboy said:


> That's not true. How many years? Twenty? Most just out of college estimators make much less than half as much of your average union JW. Even in an open shop, a lot of estimators are electricians who worked their way into that position, where they both estimate and supervise and work as electricians. Which as it is, are the highest paid guys in the shop.


You guys can spin it any way you want. Labor statistic show that wage earners with 2, 4 and more years of secondary education have more earning power than those without a degree. I will go out on a limb and guess that the vast majority of electricians do not have an education beyond high school. 

I don't doubt that _some_ union electricians are very well compensated above scale but you are making it sound like it's the norm for a field electrician to make more than someone with a college education when it's most certainly not the norm.

Furthermore both of you are in areas where union scale is near or over $50 an hour, so I submit that your view on this is skewed.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Peter D;210263]I can assure you I'm not missing anything. And again this "minimum negotiated wage" applies to all regardless of their ability. In some areas like NYC this amounts to pay of almost $50 an hour for an electrical parts assembly line worker. That is the problem I have with pay parity.



The rate in my town is $47 in the check per hour.Up till this past year or so we had close to 100% employment.It must not be that expensive.

Unless of course your trying to make a living driving adding receptacles in grand ma's house.




> And again I never said there was anything wrong with it. I just want nothing to do with that system.


Of course you don't.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> The rate in my town is $47 in the check per hour.Up till this past year or so we had close to 100% employment.It must not be that expensive.


$47 an hour _not expensive_?  Are you serious? :blink:



> Unless of course your trying to make a living driving adding receptacles in grand ma's house.


Wow, how brave of you to disparage the small self employed contractor.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Peter D said:


> And your point is? That proves nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes more then those with out secondary education.Our apprenticeship is equivalent to an associates degree plus the Journeyman courses that are available and I know you think that this is some how strong armed or fake,not the case,Our apprenticeship is accredited and accepted in several different universities around the country.

In my opinion college is one of the biggest scams going as far as what it cost to attend vs income after you receive your degree.(not the education)


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> And your point is? That proves nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course wage earners with no college degree make less than those with a degree, in general. Who's arguing that? We are talking about skilled craftsmen, not cashiers or line cooks.
Even in places where union wage scale is lower, so is the shop's estimators wage.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Peter D;210274]$47 an hour _not expensive_?  Are you serious? :blink:



Well not really since we just had about 15 years of near full employment.If it were to much we wouldn't of had the work we had.
The local Pep Boy's charges $85 a hour.But nobody complains.



> Wow, how brave of you to disparage the small self employed contractor.


I really didn't mean it as a knock at all.Just pointing out the reality of the business.of course a guy rolling around doing mostly old work residential isn't going to be able to afford our labor.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Of course wage earners with no college degree make less than those with a degree, in general. Who's arguing that? We are talking about skilled craftsmen, not cashiers or line cooks.
> Even in places where union wage scale is lower, so is the shop's estimators wage.



You understand they have to cheapen what we do and the skill that goes into it to justify there rational.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> You understand they have to cheapen what we do and the skill that goes into it to justify there rational.


That's commonplace between customer to EC, and EC to employee.

The trade has been devalued and not only our trade but trades in general.
JFYI:
I'm an open shop company guy, but I'm not blind.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> That's commonplace between customer to EC, and EC to employee.
> 
> The trade has been devalued and not only our trade but trades in general.
> JFYI:
> I'm an open shop company guy, but I'm not blind.



Wow! I'm surprised! Can I ask you a serious question,Do you feel that your compensated accordingly? Even if you are do you feel the "merit" philosophy treats everyone fairly?

I only ask because your point of view lines up more with organized labor then a career open shop office guy.(no disrespect intended)


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Wow! I'm surprised! Can I ask you a serious question,Do you feel that your compensated accordingly? Even if you are do you feel the "merit" philosophy treats everyone fairly?
> 
> I only ask because your point of view lines up more with organized labor then a career open shop office guy.(no disrespect intended)


Since I've been a career open shop worker I've worked for a couple of great shops. The shop that trained me was awesome and I'd probably still work for them but I relocated. I've also worked for a couple of crap shops. I know enough about all this and at this point that continuing with an open shop is where I'm at. My wage is fair, benies are good so for me it works. I can see where other guys are getting screwed and I can see where other shops are f*cked. But, at least in my area, there are a lot of very fair shops for guys who aren't in the union.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Since I've been a career open shop worker I've worked for a couple of great shops. The shop that trained me was awesome and I'd probably still work for them but I relocated. I've also worked for a couple of crap shops. I know enough about all this and at this point that continuing with an open shop is where I'm at. My wage is fair, benies are good so for me it works. I can see where other guys are getting screwed and I can see where other shops are f*cked. But, at least in my area, there are a lot of very fair shops for guys who aren't in the union.


Fair enough.

I'm glad we had a nice civil conversation.I know I'm usually the bad guy around here:laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> When we talk about you or your buddies trying to grab every dollar you can, earned or not, that is 'right' and 'noble'. But when a company owner tries to make more money that is 'wrong' and 'evil'.


I've got no problem with the contractor protecting His own interests. It is in my best interest to collude with other craftsmen to gain a higher wage... 


What is wrong is when the hedge funds and so on rape our economy and plunder our treasury. They are your boogey-man Bob, not the IBEW. Why have you misplaced your distrust? Too cynical? Well it is true, there is an organization out there, whose own best interest is to serve your best interests.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Nothing 'open' in your way of thinking, you clearly feel Union is the only way.


Did something I post cause you to go on the offense? I am GLAD to be in the IBEW, it is not for all so if you are happy with your way of life that is fine with me. Open lines of communication without a negative spin is what has been requested. Now I am biased towards the working class. It is good to see honest post as I appreciate your post Bob but I tried to be overt maybe in the future I will type slower. 
We all go to work to earn a living and want to come home safe and sound mostly to our families.Why then do we find so many ways to take pot shots and one liners at each other?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Did something I post cause you to go on the offense? I am GLAD to be in the IBEW, it is not for all so if you are happy with your way of life that is fine with me. Open lines of communication without a negative spin is what has been requested. Now I am biased towards the working class. It is good to see honest post as I appreciate your post Bob but I tried to be overt maybe in the future I will type slower.
> We all go to work to earn a living and want to come home safe and sound mostly to our families.Why then do we find so many ways to take pot shots and one liners at each other?


Disagreeing with your view is not taking pot shots, but thanks for proving that you do not have an open mind,:thumbsup:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I worked non-union before and I have heard "_I am starting you out at $xx an hour but don't tell any one else because you will be making more than guys that have have worked here for years_" and _"It is a company policy to discharge any employee who discuses their pay rate, it is company propitiatory information." _So how do you know if you are being paid the going rate if you can not discuss it?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Disagreeing with your view is not taking pot shots, but thanks for proving that you do not have an open mind,:thumbsup:


 Well Bob your post accused me of not being open minded (so you are making a statement that you know what I think and how I feel) So I went into a little detail to how I felt on the issue instead of these one liners you are so fond of. I started this thread with no ill will towards anyone but just to express my personal glee of being a Brother in the IBEW family. Now how one turns something good into an evil attack will be that persons demon they will have to deal with. No matter how ardent you are in your ideals of who is your enemy, I have no ill will towards you or anyone else on this board.Instead of your energy being spent on combat(us versus them) why not just be human and except an aloha form another human being(no strings attached) If you look for good you will find it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I worked non-union before and I have heard "_I am starting you out at $xx an hour but don't tell any one else because you will be making more than guys that have have worked here for years_" and _"It is a company policy to discharge any employee who discuses their pay rate, it is company propitiatory information." _So how do you know if you are being paid the going rate if you can not discuss it?



Oh no,say it's not so! I thought that "merit" shop contractors are _all_ a honest bunch.

Why on earth would the employer want to hide the wages of each one of his employees from each other???


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Oh no,say it's not so! I thought that "merit" shop contractors are _all_ a honest bunch.
> 
> Why on earth would the employer want to hide the wages of each one of his employees from each other???


 So he can screw them.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Our apprenticeship is equivalent to an associates degree


In what?

Its the same as an education from CHI Institute, but it takes 5 yrs where CHI is done in like 8 months. Your Osha 30hr card costs $189 online.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

william1978 said:


> So he can screw them.


 
How?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> How?


 The open shop that I work for screw there men every day, and use scare tactics on most of the employees. This open shop SUCKS. I wish this economy picks up soon.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Dnkldorf;210467]In what?


Electrical Engineering



> Its the same as an education from CHI Institute, but it takes 5 yrs where CHI is done in like 8 months. Your Osha 30hr card costs $189 online.


It's not the same.So what education in the field do you have again?
You still have to have the class it's no different then taking college classes online.So please explain what's your point?

Your not really down playing OSHA are you?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Electrical Engineering


for real....Associates in EE?






> Your not really down playing OSHA are you?


Not at all. I read a post that seemed to imply that having a 30hr Osha card was some sort of great acomplishment, worthy of some outlandish compensation.

I don't see it that way.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

This Union non Union debate will never end. Good thing we live in this great country and have a choice. I don't think the system will work with out the other. The agreement between the contractors and the employees is a negotiated contract accepted by both sides just like any other agreement in any other business or like the contract any customer signs when they agree to have work performed. If the contractor wasn't making money the would not be in business period. The company I have been working for is doing very good in these bad economic times and it shows in the purchasing of tools and equipment. I have noticed a big increase in the educational level of new apprentices and we are getting an influx of college grads. As far as being overpaid. I feel we as electricians are under paid. The skill set needed to do commercial and industrial is great. Were talking High voltage, low voltage, motor controls, fire alarm, security, underground, above round, pipe bending, audio, video, production, manufacturing, and a whole bunch of other sh*t I don't feel like typing so I say "show me the money".


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I am salting a good open shop right now that does specialty work.

I want to see this shop succeed, because the office people are nice, and equip field hands with phones, vans, new power tools, laptops, you name it. The going rate at this shop is a couple dollars more than the typical rate in the area.... I've never had it this good before, my PM is very friendly. This has been going on over six months, its not a honeymoon type situation.

In spite of the above, this shop has attracted nothing but the boogers of the electrical trade in the past. Fakers, phoneys, hacks, and dopers have churned through the roll-call at this shop, and it hurts to see how much money these POS's masquerading as specialty electricians have cost the bottom-line in tens-of-thousands of dollars, probably hundreds...

The local has a few guys in there now, and believe it or not... I can't believe it, the local plans to do nothing hostile, just show the shop the positive impact of union labor on the bottom line. I really would love to see the shop sign on, it would be a world of difference to get hands in there that care about their jobs and strive for excellence.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Instead of salting why dint you invite the hands over to join your local. That way they would not have to work non-signatured.
One more question. How many of the hands in that company tried to get in the apprenticeship program but were rejected because the did not know the wright people ?

LC

Think Listen Solve


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I am salting a good open shop right now that does specialty work.
> 
> I want to see this shop succeed, because the office people are nice, and equip field hands with phones, vans, new power tools, laptops, you name it. The going rate at this shop is a couple dollars more than the typical rate in the area.... I've never had it this good before, my PM is very friendly. This has been going on over six months, its not a honeymoon type situation.
> 
> ...


A couple of previous posts have me wondering, does this shop allow the open discussion of wages?

But more importantly, I am curious, what will happen if they _don't _sign. Will the local's plans change? Will you implement a hostile course of action against a *good* company if asked to do so?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Instead of salting why dint you invite the hands over to join your local...
> 
> How many of the hands in that company tried ... but were rejected because the did not know the wright people ?


This local doesn't work that way, my answer to both questions.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500 said:


> does this shop allow the open discussion of wages?
> 
> what will happen if they _don't _sign?


I don't know about discussion, but my PM told me he makes about $40 an hour on the check. Does that answer your question? Another guy who is strictly a Johnny makes $25. My apprentice makes $22. The going rate is between $28 and $32. But 90% of the work is PW, so it doesn't matter.

If they don't sign on, something might happen far in the future, but for the duration of the recession, the local wants a shop to give it's hands on the books who want to work, a place to work. End of story.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I don't know about discussion, but my PM told me he makes about $40 an hour on the check. Does that answer your question? Another guy who is strictly a Johnny makes $25. My apprentice makes $22. The going rate is between $28 and $32. But 90% of the work is PW, so it doesn't matter.
> 
> If they don't sign on, something might happen far in the future, but for the duration of the recession, the local wants a shop to give it's hands on the books who want to work, a place to work. End of story.


It does, thank you.

This post leads me to believe that _if _this shop doesn't sign, they will be used as a crutch to get the local through hard times. Then, when they are no longer as useful, you will wreck their shop.

I would hope this is not the case. Given that that are not driving down the local rate, or using underpaid labor to "steal" work. Also you expressed a desire to see this shop succeed, which would seem more than a bit disingenuous, if you helped tear the company down.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

K2500 said:


> A couple of previous posts have me wondering, does this shop allow the open discussion of wages?
> 
> But more importantly, I am curious, what will happen if they _don't _sign. Will the local's plans change? Will you implement a hostile course of action against a *good* company if asked to do so?


What was used in the past is no loger used when it comes to hostile actions. Worst case would be if the rep from the hall can not come to terms with the contractor he will ask the workers to quit usually when there is another contractor that needs to hire. We do desire a good days pay for a good quality day of work,as any one in their right mind should. When comes to nondisclosure of your wages, this was common place on several jobs that I Salted.What I found was some were being paid allot less than I and doing the same work which I consider abuse of labor by the contractor. I know of many different cases of labor abuse from both sides, but we should not harp on that, we should wish for us all to gain employment and make a good living safely.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

If the IBEW had workers interest at heart the would invite all non-signatured electricians to join .Then they could control all the work. That would give them real power. It would also make it hard for the non-signatured contractors to operate. 

LC

Think Listen Solve


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> What was used in the past is no loger used when it comes to hostile actions. Worst case would be if the rep from the hall can not come to terms with the contractor he will ask the workers to quit usually when there is another contractor that needs to hire. We do desire a good days pay for a good quality day of work,as any one in their right mind should. When comes to nondisclosure of your wages, this was common place on several jobs that I Salted.What I found was some were being paid allot less than I and doing the same work which I consider abuse of labor by the contractor. I know of many different cases of labor abuse from both sides, but we should not harp on that, we should wish for us all to gain employment and make a good living safely.


I've see the abuse of nondisclosure as well, and find it kind of an underhanded practice in general. 
I'm confused about the motivations of an employee willing to sign, once they have progressed past apprentice skill. Don't they kinda become second class brothers? Sign a different book, ride in the back of the bus type of thing?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> If the IBEW had workers interest at heart the would invite all non-signatured electricians to join .Then they could control all the work. That would give them real power. It would also make it hard for the non-signatured contractors to operate.
> 
> LC
> 
> Think Listen Solve


 The bad thing about that they don't have enough work for all of them.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> If the IBEW had workers interest at heart the would invite all non-signatured electricians to join .Then they could control all the work. That would give them real power. It would also make it hard for the non-signatured contractors to operate.
> 
> LC
> 
> Think Listen Solve


If that were the case with just this trade, if we all were union, no one would be able to afford an electrician. If the entire nation was signatory, we would price ourselves out of the world market. Which could be good or bad.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500 said:


> Then, when they are no longer as useful, you will wreck their shop.


Speak for yourself.

There is no damage I could ever inflict on this shop, that could ever come close to the damage done by their inept, imcompetent PM's (who got fired.) Compound that damage by the wreckage left in the wake of the douchebags they hired off the street masquerading as professionals. This is specialty work, not your typical dime a dozen EC work of power and lights, pitfalls are everywhere.

Another item for consideration, the electrical community is a small one, people I have never met usually have two or more mutual friends union or non-union. Reputation is everything, mention a name and it brings a smile or a scowl. Do you really think I am going to burn a bridge at someone else's direction when it could damage my reputation? I was already promised that wasn't going to be the case anyways.

K2500, hardline cynic.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500,

What would you know about the IBEW anyways??

You're from a state with the next to lowest union density in the nation.

Seeing that you most likely have no long-term experience with a healthy IBEW organization, your opinon is negatively skewed.

This, or you believe the crap you hear on talk-radio or foxnews about unions. Are you going to post links to some sycophant right-wing union busting website? I can tell where you're going with the discussion, and it stinks.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

K2500 said:


> I've see the abuse of nondisclosure as well, and find it kind of an underhanded practice in general.
> I'm confused about the motivations of an employee willing to sign, once they have progressed past apprentice skill. Don't they kinda become second class brothers? Sign a different book, ride in the back of the bus type of thing?


If you are organized in you would sign the same book as any other JW. If it is your home local you sign book 1 if your from another local you sign book 2. I have witnessed some of the members who went through the program treat organized members in a different light but I know of organized hands who are well respected by all mainly for being a good union member, giving the contractor a good days work,participation in union afairs, helping their Brothers and Sisters in time of need,etc. Organizing is where our roots come from. As far as reasons, the main ones I can think of are retirement,upgrade classes(most are free) and some do not understand this but we are family. Just 1 for instance I drove through the night back years ago to get on the books in St Paul (they had plenty of calls going unfilled) I was hard upon money but met a Brother in the hall that put me upat his house until I got a pay check.All over the USA I have run into this same type of Brotherhood.Good luck to you no matter what choices you make in life.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Speak for yourself.
> 
> There is no damage I could ever inflict on this shop, that could ever come close to the damage done by their inept, imcompetent PM's (who got fired.) Compound that damage by the wreckage left in the wake of the douchebags they hired off the street masquerading as professionals. This is specialty work, not your typical dime a dozen EC work of power and lights, pitfalls are everywhere.
> 
> ...


I should have put a question mark after that, it was intended as a question. I have no idea what you would, or wouldn't do. That why I was asking. I'm not hardline, but a bit cynical.
For me, at least, those answers above put the IBEW under better light.



miller_elex said:


> K2500,
> 
> What would you know about the IBEW anyways??
> 
> ...


The news, the radio? those guys will spew lies no matter who you watch.

Zero, experience actually, except hearsay. I came here for more hearsay, except from the other side.

I don't think you have any idea where I'm going with this. 



Brother Noah said:


> If you are organized in you would sign the same book as any other JW. If it is your home local you sign book 1 if your from another local you sign book 2. I have witnessed some of the members who went through the program treat organized members in a different light but I know of organized hands who are well respected by all mainly for being a good union member, giving the contractor a good days work,participation in union afairs, helping their Brothers and Sisters in time of need,etc. Organizing is where our roots come from. As far as reasons, the main ones I can think of are retirement,upgrade classes(most are free) and some do not understand this but we are family. Just 1 for instance I drove through the night back years ago to get on the books in St Paul (they had plenty of calls going unfilled) I was hard upon money but met a Brother in the hall that put me upat his house until I got a pay check.All over the USA I have run into this same type of Brotherhood.Good luck to you no matter what choices you make in life.


Do all locals have the fourth book I've read about here. I've met some very good electricians who have never completed a formal apprenticeship.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Do all locals have the fourth book I've read about here. I've met some very good electricians who have never completed a formal apprenticeship.[/quote]

All the locals I have signed do have a book 3(out of class or different type of electrician) and a book 4( not union but have the hours worked in the field and are a legal resident of that said area) some locals are different though, I had to sign book4 in a line local in the bay area of California but book 3 in Southern California line local. I appreciate you for your honest questions and opinions.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

I personally would like to express my congratulations to all the contributors to this thread for their mutual respect for each other.It was a refreshing change from the insults and sarcasm that mark the exchange of ideas by some contributors on this forum.BillW


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Unions have had their place in time. The original founding ideas have been left by the wayside. The portrait that unions have today is because of their past actions. 

To the OP, that is fine and dandy of brothers helping you through rough times. Nice to see that they are there to help. 

However, I dont need people having cookouts to support me due to being off work. If I had a horrible medical problem, accident, etc. Ok, I would be willing to help. But to hold a dinner for someone because they are out of work....welll......I wouldnt accept the money, and wouldnt promote it. There is always a way to support yourself....ALWAYS....


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

To the OP, that is fine and dandy of brothers helping you through rough times. Nice to see that they are there to help. 

However, I dont need people having cookouts to support me due to being off work. If I had a horrible medical problem, accident, etc. Ok, I would be willing to help. But to hold a dinner for someone because they are out of work....welll......I wouldnt accept the money, and wouldnt promote it. There is always a way to support yourself....ALWAYS....[/quote]
I guess you missed the point that we help each other in the IBEW as Brothers and Sisters. Not once have I asked for this help and was un aware what the cook out was for until the donation were given to me as I have given to other many times in the past 28 years without even a thought of getting anything in return(just helping my fellow workers survive in their time of need)If you have read my previous post I am only biased about myself being glad to be in the IBEW, if you are happy with your current status well then good for you. This thread is not about ill will.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> I guess you missed the point that we help each other in the IBEW as Brothers and Sisters.


And I guess you missed the part where he said "Nice to see that they are there to help." 



> This thread is not about ill will.


I see no 'ill will' you have to stop this crap that if someone does not agree with your view it is 'ill will' or wrong or taking pot shots at you.

Everyones opinion here is of equal value even when we do not agree.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

K2500 said:


> Do all locals have the fourth book I've read about here. I've met some very good electricians who have never completed a formal apprenticeship.


Not sure about all locals. In decent times that Book 4 guy will surely stay employed, at the same contractor. But if the company hits hard times, he might get laid off, and it would be impossible to get back on until the next bubble.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I see no 'ill will' you have to stop this crap that if someone does not agree with your view it is 'ill will' or wrong or taking pot shots at you.

Everyones opinion here is of equal value even when we do not agree.[/quote]
Bob you accused me of not being open minded about unions. The IBEW is awesome to me and many other of my Brothers and Sisters, as I have posted before if it is not for you I have not one problem with that. Your one liner accused me of something but you fail to explain except posting that you want this crap to stop. See I have no problem with your stance, just a little unclear exactly what it is from lack of post on your part.I am not really offended by your opinion, but you asserting the way I think is a lie. All because I am glad to be IBEW.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Everyones opinion here is of equal value even when we do not agree.


 :thumbsup: If we all agreed there would be no need for a forum.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

william1978 said:


> :thumbsup: If we all agreed there would be no need for a forum.


I agree, it would be a very boring place if we all agreed on every issue.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree, it would be a very boring place if we all agreed on every issue.


What?!? There are disagreements on this forum?

Just kidding. What amazes me is how many years and years of experience has gone into forming all these opinions.

GTG, don't want to miss Oprah.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

All in all we have exchanged some good thoughts and ideas for the most part and would like to express gratitude for the participation. The majority of us are involved in the electrical field and have common goals and ambitions but over the years of bad and good deeds by all there has been an invisible wall of mistrust. I personally believe our competition is needed for the economy to flourish but no matter if one has a ticket and the other does not we are still men and women trying to earn a living and support our family's plying the electrical trade and can help one another as fellow humans with similar problems.The truth will set you free.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

But just remember folks, they're only your "brothers" and "sisters" if they're paying their dues to the "organization". :laughing:


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

*........
*


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?
> 
> Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago.
> The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not.
> ...


The Brotherhood works out good for me.

When I worked non-union, I heard the same story about guys being overpaid. 
Then I worked union and found out how under paid I was. 
Then I moved into the office and found that the prices for work were the same but the owners of the non-union shops just kept the difference. It was just enough of a difference to force peoples kids into daycare and keep the guys in dept. Then they cheer on the lifestyle like a Stockholm Syndrome kind of thing by claiming that people doing the same work for more money are the bad guys.
I never really understood the whole thing.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I never had the choice of joining the IBEW. I was not allowed to join because my dad was not a electrician. In the 70's the local in my home town would only take relatives or soon to soon to be relatives. I was interview 5 times.
> Now that I have been through the ABC apprenticeship program they tell me that I am overqualified and that this local does not do any industrial work.
> The IBEW may look good from the inside looking out but if your on the outside looking in it one of the most unfair organizations in the country.
> If a company treated their employees the same the IBEW treated outsiders you would not do business with them.
> ...


Sorry to hear about that.
When I got in back in the early 80s my father was qualifying the largest non-union shop in town. They knew it too.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Disagreeing with your view is not taking pot shots, but thanks for proving that you do not have an open mind,:thumbsup:


Oh Bob!!..


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> In what?
> 
> Its the same as an education from CHI Institute, but it takes 5 yrs where CHI is done in like 8 months. Your Osha 30hr card costs $189 online.


Not only is that a sad comment, Its also the most ignorant comment I have read on this forum.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> In what?
> 
> Its the same as an education from CHI Institute, but it takes 5 yrs where CHI is done in like 8 months. Your Osha 30hr card costs $189 online.



Not sure what his is. But mine would be an associate of science. Got a nifty college dipolma from a State University of New York school we attended here in NYC. And our OSHA class was paid for by our union. All accredited too.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

K2500 said:


> If that were the case with just this trade, if we all were union, no one would be able to afford an electrician. If the entire nation was signatory, we would price ourselves out of the world market. Which could be good or bad.


Wage negotiations are based on a formula that takes local costs of living into account. Its not a bunch of ZZ Top looking guys with pitch forks on a picket line demanding money.
Each side requests concessions and usually the whole process ends up in arbitration.
The contractor can leave at any time with a short notice. 
I don't think they would stay if they couldn't make money.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jrannis said:


> they cheer on the lifestyle like a Stockholm Syndrome kind of thing by claiming that people doing the same work for more money are the bad guys.


How come contractors don't stand in a circle and cheer on the low-ballers sucking up the work? They appropriately wonder how the guy can afford to do business, and groan. Yet when the sparks are driving around beaters and sucking up the payday loans, its a good thing, right? That guy living a few blocks from skid row, is only going to keep that up until his health fails, and then he's a burden on society. That helps us how??

In a community, the sparks are kept fighting lean, on low wages, and kept mean, by layoffs and screams. 99% of the guys will comply, but there is going to be one, who is sharp enough to climb up a rung, and he's lean enough, and mean enough, to do the low-ball work profitibly. Isn't the contractor culture in that community to blame for that kind of competition? I can't certainly say, I live in a community where sparks are protected. 

Think about other microcosms of business where this is already true. Landscaping: the immigrants who used to be the piece-rate ****** labor, are now the businessman in the shiny truck passing out cards and signing contracts. Residential roping is a lost cause, going the way of landscaping.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> But just remember folks, they're only your "brothers" and "sisters" if they're paying their dues to the "organization". :laughing:


 The The Brotherhood within the IBEW is more to most than just an organization (as you put it) There was a Brother who sued our IO over our retirement funds around the late 1970's, IO took his ticket away but still he was treated as one of our family.Now because of this Brothers sacrifices we all benefit. The IO in my opinion has more of a corporate frame of logic, where if you do not pay your dues they take your ticket away and they quit representing you. Our dues are around $300 a YEAR. I am fairly sure we make more than $300 a WEEK than most non union electricians so I have no problem paying pennies on the dollar to have that extra representation and the extra IO retirement. We do have our problems within the IBEW but I have never had regrets for being a member I guess just as much as those who are not in the union are happy with their way of life.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Then I moved into the office and found that the prices for work were the same but the owners of the non-union shops just kept the difference.


So you are saying union shops charge the same as open shops and the only difference is that the open shop owners keep the difference in the worker's wages????? 
Please don't tell me that is what you are saying. :001_huh:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you are saying union shops charge the same as open shops and the only difference is that the open shop owners keep the difference in the worker's wages?????
> Please don't tell me that is what you are saying. :001_huh:


 
Most jobs are put out for bids and who ever bids lowest usually gets the bid. If it is a union contractor they have to pay what ever the contract calls for, if it is an open shop(well in my opinion they have more room to play with the numbers) This would be different on prevailing wage jobs. This is but mere math.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Most jobs are put out for bids and who ever bids lowest usually gets the bid. If it is a union contractor they have to pay what ever the contract calls for, if it is an open shop(well in my opinion they have more room to play with the numbers) This would be different on prevailing wage jobs. This is but mere math.



So in other words, the union demands a contractor pay their people a certain amount because they've chosen to organize. Now, this puts the contractor in an inequitable position because they can't compete in the open market. In short, the unions are cutting themselves off at their own knees.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So in other words, the union demands a contractor pay their people a certain amount because they've chosen to organize. Now, this puts the contractor in an inequitable position because they can't compete in the open market. In short, the unions are cutting themselves off at their own knees.



Don't be silly... with throwing words in your post that stray away from the topic at hand. In this case the word is "demands".

You know that union contractors are signatory contractors. Both sides agree to what will be done.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> You know that union contractors are signatory contractors. * Both sides agree to what will be done.*


That is such a farce, agreeing under duress or force is hardly agreeing.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> the unions are cutting themselves off at their own knees.


No, we're just waiting for you to cut your own knees off in some mishap.

Like when IES gone bankrupt and pissed away their foremen's 401k's? That was a big help to the ibew.

What goes around comes around, bad folks do themselves in, in the end. No helping along needed.

Not saying you're a bad guy 480, but there are plenty out there. Most regulars on this board are self-employed electricians, which meet a need in the economy, and are not necessarily enemies of the ibew.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Don't be silly... with throwing words in your post that stray away from the topic at hand. In this case the word is "demands".........



So organizing an open shop isn't making demands? What do _you_ call it when an open shop owner is *forced* to succumb to organization?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Ok, just for fun, I have to ask if anyone knows why the Teamsters chose not to use the IBEW and instead used a merit shop when they built their hall in Houston?

Roger


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So organizing an open shop isn't making demands? What do _you_ call it when an open shop owner is *forced* to succumb to organization?


Its like taking a sick child to the doctor. You are helping them, and when they grow up and do the right things it makes you proud of them.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> And I guess you missed the part where he said "Nice to see that they are there to help."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Noah,
Bob is the village troll on anything said positive about the IBEW.

Bob,
Noah is a bit new to the forum to drop the "oh Bob" hammer on so hard. Plus, he is a very good writer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Its like taking a sick child to the doctor. You are helping them, and when they grow up and do the right things it makes you proud of them.


But this isn't a sick child. It's a perfectly healthy one. But you're still hauling him/her to the doctor, and with your own agenda to boot.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Roger said:


> Ok, just for fun, I have to ask if anyone knows why the Teamsters chose not to use the IBEW and instead used a merit shop when they built their hall in Houston?
> 
> Roger


They only have two things in Texas, neither one of them are union electricians, and the guys that wired the place didn't have horns. :laughing:


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

jrannis said:


> They only have two things in Texas, neither one of them are union electricians, and the guys that wired the place didn't have horns. :laughing:


I wonder what the Texas IBEW members will think of your response?

Roger


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you are saying union shops charge the same as open shops and the only difference is that the open shop owners keep the difference in the worker's wages?????
> Please don't tell me that is what you are saying. :001_huh:


Thats the way it works around here.
Union shop bids to cover a rate of $45, non-union bids at a rate of $44, pays his guys $18 / no bennies.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Roger said:


> I wonder what the Texas IBEW members will think of your response?
> 
> Roger


There is only one that I know of.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Thats the way it works around here.
> Union shop bids to cover a rate of $45, non-union bids at a rate of $44, pays his guys $18 / no bennies.



And who, pray tell, holds a gun to those people's heads and tells them to take the job at the non-union shop for $18/hr-no bennies?


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So in other words, the union demands a contractor pay their people a certain amount because they've chosen to organize. Now, this puts the contractor in an inequitable position *because they can't compete in the open market*. In short, the unions are cutting themselves off at their own knees.


This is exactly whats happening here. All the big shops here are closing or laying 90% of their workers.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> This is exactly whats happening here. All the big shops here are closing or laying 90% of their workers.


Like I said..... they're cutting themselves off at their own knees. They demand more money than the open market is willing pay. It's that simple.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Like I said..... they're cutting themselves off at their own knees. They demand more money than the open market is willing pay. It's that simple.


socialism just will not die.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So organizing an open shop isn't making demands? What do _you_ call it when an open shop owner is *forced* to succumb to organization?


The way I understand it when the workers want to be represented by the union (you are right in a way) they workers are demanding to have the union to represent them therefore the contractor will have to use a sharper pencil, maybe? Depends if the contract is a hard bid or T&M, if it is a hard bid the said contractor has several options, take a smaller slice of the pie, depend on the union trained to get the job more efficent (I will add this will not happen every time but odds are they will) or just file bankrupt which brings joy to NO ONE.We are trained not only to do a good job but to work hard for the contractor so they will profit therefore they will hire more workers in the future(I realize that all union workers do not abide by our teachings) What is referred to as a hostile takeover to my knowledge is no longer is an excepted pratice by IO(International IBEW) What I posted before was when there are open bids by open and closed shops(before the job is let) and where the money goes, before someone made an effort to twist the truth. Tell the truth and set yourself free.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> demand more money than the open market is willing pay.


Yeah... Mrs. Johnson, make that check out to my LLC for those under cabinet lights...

Forgive me 480, but I don't picture you down at the local hi-tech fab installing tools.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Roger said:


> Ok, just for fun, I have to ask if anyone knows why the Teamsters chose not to use the IBEW and instead used a merit shop when they built their hall in Houston?
> 
> Roger


 
Hypocrites?


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> The way I understand it when the workers want to be represented by the union (you are right in a way) they workers are demanding to have the union to represent them therefore the contractor will have to use a sharper pencil, maybe? Depends if the contract is a hard bid or T&M, if it is a hard bid the said contractor has several options, take a smaller slice of the pie, depend on the union trained to get the job more efficent (I will add this will not happen every time but odds are they will) or just file bankrupt which brings joy to NO ONE.We are trained not only to do a good job but to work hard for the contractor so they will profit therefore they will hire more workers in the future(I realize that all union workers do not abide by our teachings) What is referred to as a hostile takeover to my knowledge is no longer is an excepted pratice by IO(International IBEW) What I posted before was when there are open bids by open and closed shops(before the job is let) and where the money goes, before someone made an effort to twist the truth. Tell the truth and set yourself free.


You talk pretty well... I think that might be what they are paying you for although you really need to look up the word "truth" before you throw it around the way you do. Some (most?) here know all about the union BS lines. (In case you thought some were being swayed) :laughing:

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4484598


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Yeah... Mrs. Johnson, make that check out to my LLC for those under cabinet lights...
> 
> Forgive me 480, but I don't picture you down at the local hi-tech fab installing tools.


None of that makes any sense. None of it at all. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

"local hi-tech fab installing tools"?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Fredman said:


> You talk pretty well... I think that might be what they are paying you for although you really need to look up the word "truth" before you throw it around the way you do. Some (most?) here know all about the union BS lines. (In case you thought some were being swayed) :laughing:
> 
> I am collecting California unemployment at this posting and need not to be paid to express the joy I have to be in the IBEW. In my previous post I have explained my oppinion that If you are happy with your life I am happy for you. Most on this board are in the same line of work and have many things in common, it is a shame that we can not converse without a biased slant coming out. The union life is no where close to being a garden of Eden, all construction has it rough right now.As far as trying to sway anyone,just like my work ethic I only try to lead by example. So if you have any specific questions you wanted answered I have nothing to hide. The truth will set you free.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> "local hi-tech fab installing tools"


A 'tool' is a robot, in the hi-tech sense. The 'fab' is the factory floor.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Fredman said:


> know all about the union BS lines.


There is no ibew lines. There might be some flea speak, so to say.

The brother / sister BS is hard to swallow. Nobody gives a sh1t about anybody else, we just want what is best for ourselves. Coming from a disfunctional background myself, any family oriented language carries a negative connotation. 

What really matters is this, that I stand alongside so and so, and now we have gained more than each of us could on our own. Now it is in my best interest to look out for my 'brother's' best interest, I hope that is plain enough english for you to understand.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> A 'tool' is a robot, in the hi-tech sense. The 'fab' is the factory floor.


Then you're plain wrong.

Here I am:








​


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Then you're plain wrong.
> 
> Here I am:
> 
> ...


Man Could I use you...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> Man Could I use you...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Nobody uses me. You can only hire me.


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## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

I find it interesting how the pro-union leg humpers demonize the business owners for wanting to get the most return with the smallest investment. The CBA that they love so much does the same thing. They attempt to get the most pay in return for the smallest amount of work.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Fredman said:
> 
> 
> > *I am collecting California unemployment* at this posting and need not to be paid to express the joy I have to be in the IBEW. In my previous post I have explained my oppinion that If you are happy with your life I am happy for you. Most on this board are in the same line of work and have many things in common, it is a shame that we can not converse without a biased slant coming out. *The union life is no where close to being a garden of Eden*, *all construction has it rough right now*.As far as trying to sway anyone,just like my work ethic *I only try to lead by example*. So if you have any specific questions you wanted answered I have nothing to hide. *The truth will set you free.*
> ...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I worked non-union before and I have heard "_I am starting you out at $xx an hour but don't tell any one else because you will be making more than guys that have have worked here for years_" and _"It is a company policy to discharge any employee who discuses their pay rate, it is company propitiatory information." _So how do you know if you are being paid the going rate if you can not discuss it?





slickvic277 said:


> Oh no,say it's not so! I thought that "merit" shop contractors are _all_ a honest bunch.
> 
> Why on earth would the employer want to hide the wages of each one of his employees from each other???





william1978 said:


> So he can screw them.


So much to say. :jester:

OK first thing is I will not pretend that merit shops want us to discuss our wages, you are right, they do not want us to.

But really, do you think that stops the guys from talking?
And while I have been told not to discuss it I have never been threatened with being fired over it. I am sure some have been threatened but IMO it is not common.

Why don't they want us to discuss our wages?

IMO saying 'to screw us' is just being childish.

The whole thing with merit shop is we are each paid based on our merits and / or ability to neogiciate. Each of us is paid dfirently and have different bennifit packages.

That being said they will always be some that are paid less then others and those paid less will always say they desever as much as 'that other guy' even when they do not have the same skills.

Having the guys compare their wages only leads to poor moral and a line of people asking for raises based only on what the other guy makes and not on any facts.

We have an official written yearly reveiw process that has specific goals for certain pay levels. 

For example having licenses in multiple states raises our pay, being able to run a crew raises our pay etc.

You do not have a merit shop if every employee makes the same wage regardless of their production or knowledge.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> ................You do not have a merit shop if every employee makes the same wage regardless of their production or knowledge.













mer·it (m







t)_n._*1. **
a. * Superior quality or worth; excellence:
*b. * A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue:
*2. * Demonstrated ability or achievement: promotions based on merit alone.
*3.* a deserving or commendable quality or act:
*4.* the quality that renders something desirable or valuable or useful:
*5. *the quality of being deserving:
*6.* the state of having value:
[via Old French from Latin _meritum_ reward, from _merēre_ to deserve]


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree with Bob. I have a few guys that help me out and they all vary in abilities even though they have been in the business for the same amount of time. I can tell one guy what we need to do and off he goes before I know it its done. Some of the other guys need more attention and dont produce as much. Why would I want to pay these guys the same money..?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I agree with Bob. I have a few guys that help me out and they all vary in abilities even though they have been in the business for the same amount of time. I can tell one guy what we need to do and off he goes before I know it its done. Some of the other guys need more attention and dont produce as much. Why would I want to pay these guys the same money..?


OK but what is the average rate you would be paying?

You, and your competitors have the same labor rates, like material prices 
Everyone has to have a local license to work
They all agreed to work for the same rate
People that ran work for you were paid 10% more

Could this concept work?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> OK but what is the average rate you would be paying?
> 
> You, and your competitors have the same labor rates, like material prices
> Everyone has to have a local license to work
> ...


It would not work for me, it is the opposite of merit and my choice is to work merit.

I would find no pride in a wage I did not earn but receive only because someone is obligated by contract to pay me that number. I also do not believe paying by contract promotes hard work or the desire to learn more.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

MisterCMK said:


> I find it interesting how the pro-union leg humpers demonize the business owners for wanting to get the most return with the smallest investment.


They have the right... no disagreement there. Its interesting how the chamber of commerce leg humpers demonize the unions for wanting the labor laws and prevailing wage enforced.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> OK but what is the average rate you would be paying?
> 
> You, and your competitors have the same labor rates, like material prices
> Everyone has to have a local license to work
> ...



The slackers and wanna-bes would be more than happy if they all got paid the same, but the ones who truly produce would balk and walk.

I've seen 2nd-year apprentices that can run circles around 40-year veterans. And I'm not talking about the physical end of the job, either. I've also seen people in the trade for 20 years that can't pass the JW test to save their life.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I've seen 2nd-year apprentices that can run circles around 40-year veterans. And I'm not talking about the physical end of the job, either. I've also seen people in the trade for 20 years that can't pass the JW test to save their life.


Oh now you have done it, you just don't understand that anyone with 20 years in is entitled to top pay just because they are still showing up and are breathing, don't expect they have to learn new things or produce.:no:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Funny how all you guys see out there are slackers.
I usually run into highly skilled, well rounded electricians.
Those that are not either get turned around or make the first lay-off.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Then you're plain wrong.
> 
> Here I am:


 I would love to know if that picture is real.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh now you have done it, you just don't understand that anyone with 20 years in is entitled to top pay just because they are still showing up and are breathing, don't expect they have to learn new things or produce.:no:


Of _course_ he's entitled to extra pay. After all, he's the one that wired up the fire alarm panel, and applied 120v directly to the detection circuit. Of course, this fried each and every programmable device in the building (Smokes, pull stations, heats) and cost $65K to replace....... but hey.... he's been on the payroll for 20 years!

He's somehow related to the guy who jumped on a trencher one day and decided it's a good time to start digging. No need to call for any locates. After all, how bad can it be when all you dig up is four fiber optic cables and a high-pressure natural gas line?

Now, if he could just figure out how to bend back-to-back 90s in ¾" EMT.........


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I would love to know if that picture is real.



'Course it is. That's me..... wiring up some control panels in a factory.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Funny how all you guys see out there are slackers.
> I usually run into highly skilled, well rounded electricians.
> Those that are not either get turned around or make the first lay-off.


You obviously missed part of my post where I said, "I've seen 2nd-year apprentices that can run circles around 40-year veterans."

Take the blinders off.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Where did that monkey come from..? and how did it get there.....? FWIW monkeys kind of freak me out. I would rather be around a tiger than a monkey. I blame Planet of the Apes for that. (Original of course)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

captkirk said:


> Where did that monkey come from..? and how did it get there.....? FWIW monkeys kind of freak me out. I would rather be around a tiger than a monkey. I blame Planet of the Apes for that. (Original of course)


That is NOT a monkey. It me ME!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That is NOT a monkey. It me ME!



Yeah but you kind of freak me out too.:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah but you kind of freak me out too.:whistling2:



I'm glad.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever wondered why you have to send away part of your unemployment check every month away to the guys who promised you the world? Do you realize there is an ass load of electrical work going on in LA/Orange/Riv/SB/and SD counties right now? But the locals did not want to do this work, they were too good for this work.
> ...


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> $30 a MONTH is what I pay and the only thing I expect is to continue to be in the IBEW. *I am well aware of the work in my area as mostly reported to me by the local IBEW reps* but just as I have heard on this board there is a biased slant when we apply for these said jobs because we are members of the IBEW.*I have not met many if any IBEW members that thought to much theirself to turn down electrical work.*


But your local reps are pretty clueless when it comes to what work there is. They are too busy trying to acquire PLA's. When was the last time you heard your reps telling you about a dentist office being built in Pasadena? I am on the streets every day and I see no less than 30 marked trucks and vans a day. That is not counting the full parking lots at the SH's. They're getting material, not just donuts. My SH contacts are saying business is the best in the last 18 months. 

Maybe not the members themselves, cause after all they have flooded Craigslist. But the signatory contractors have given the work up. Many reasons why, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think labor is a factor.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> But your local reps are pretty clueless when it comes to what work there is. They are too busy trying to acquire PLA's. When was the last time you heard your reps telling you about a dentist office being built in Pasadena? I am on the streets every day and I see no less than 30 marked trucks and vans a day. That is not counting the full parking lots at the SH's. They're getting material, not just donuts. My SH contacts are saying business is the best in the last 18 months.
> 
> Maybe not the members themselves, cause after all they have flooded Craigslist. But the signatory contractors have given the work up. Many reasons why, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think labor is a factor.


One of the reps from Local #440 sends me e-mails most every day with anywhere from 10-30 different job listings in So-Cal. I am unsure of how many members receive this data but I know of many putting applications in and only a few have been hired. There have been several that got call backs but once it was established that the person was union the interest from the caller is lost. Just as I have seen the angst in some post from open shop workers, we in the union have had our fair share of doors slammed in our face also.We have all made mistakes in past practice therefore we all have fears and misconceptions of what todays reality is.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Funny how all you guys see out there are slackers.
> I usually run into highly skilled, well rounded electricians.
> Those that are not either get turned around or make the first lay-off.


Yes of course, it is entirely believable that each union electrician has exactly the same skills and motivation, they are identical.:no::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes of course, it is entirely believable that each union electrician has exactly the same skills and motivation, there are identical.:no::laughing:



Yep. Every Union electrician is exactly like the next one.








​


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yep. Every Union electrician is exactly like the next one.


So your answer to the problems we all have in the electrical construction field is to make a subtle attempt at slamming the union. I will call it slamming because not only is it showing the union members in a negative light it is also a LIE. Open and union shops alike we all have different skills and motivations. We are all in the same industry with common goals and responsibilties why do some insist upon being so negative on their post? I personally appreciate all the post, it shows the things we have in common as well as expose to all some personal fears and phobias. The more walls we build between us the harder it is going to be for us to get back to building America productively.Come on Bob I have seen some of your post where you have not made attempts to be negatve and destructive, you are able to be productive.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> So your answer to the problems we all have in the electrical construction field is to make a subtle attempt at slamming the union. I will call it slamming because not only is it showing the union members in a negative light it is also a LIE. Open and union shops alike we all have different skills and motivations. We are all in the same industry with common goals and responsibilties why do some insist upon being so negative on their post? I personally appreciate all the post, it shows the things we have in common as well as expose to all some personal fears and phobias. The more walls we build between us the harder it is going to be for us to get back to building America productively.Come on Bob I have seen some of your post where you have not made attempts to be negatve and destructive, you are able to be productive.



From what I gathered... and remember it's only my opinion. Some folks in the non-union crowd such as 480sparky believe that unions have this sneaky agenda. He (they) will knock pretty much any union post here. He (they) will take one union members comment which may shed a negative thought and take it out on all union members. 


Like I've said before it goes both ways. The same people that complain about union posts that are demeaning to non-union are doing the same to union members. Which is why I tend to stay out of it. But I must say some of it is pretty funny to watch. 

480sparky... oh YOU! :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> So your answer to the problems we all have in the electrical construction field is to make a subtle attempt at slamming the union. I will call it slamming because not only is it showing the union members in a negative light it is also a LIE. Open and union shops alike we all have different skills and motivations. We are all in the same industry with common goals and responsibilties why do some insist upon being so negative on their post? I personally appreciate all the post, it shows the things we have in common as well as expose to all some personal fears and phobias. The more walls we build between us the harder it is going to be for us to get back to building America productively.Come on Bob I have seen some of your post where you have not made attempts to be negatve and destructive, you are able to be productive.



You obviously missed the smiley thing. I think Bob was being facetious when he commented, 'Yes of course, it is entirely believable that each union electrician has exactly the same skills and motivation, they are identical.:no::laughing:'. I was mirroring this. 



Chris21 said:


> From what I gathered... and remember it's only my opinion. Some folks in the non-union crowd such as 480sparky believe that unions have this sneaky agenda. He (they) will knock pretty much any union post here. He (they) will take one union members comment which may shed a negative thought and take it out on all union members.
> 
> 
> Like I've said before it goes both ways. The same people that complain about union posts that are demeaning to non-union are doing the same to union members. Which is why I tend to stay out of it. But I must say some of it is pretty funny to watch.
> ...


First off, I don't 'knock' any union post here. I will respond to those I can, and to the best of my abilities. I don't 'take' one members comments 'out' on others. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but please base it on the true facts, not one's own 'facts'.


--------------------------------------
I will state it for the record here:

*I am not anti-union. I am non-union. *

If you cannot differentiate between the two, that's your problem and not mine.

--------------------------------------

I base my stance on the issue on my experience and my dealings and my encounters, and yes, my run-ins, with the union. Since you are not physically attached to me, you will have different experiences, dealings and encounters. That will affect YOUR decision.

MY decision is to be non-union. I think it's pretty clear, and always has been. If it's YOUR decision to join the union, fine. I'm not going to stop you. 

But I have made my decision. But it appears the union thinks they can force me to change my mind in certain instances.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Peace? Seriously? Have you ever seen a union picket line?
> 
> Your points have been very well made. The only thing is it is old news. The unions did their job and had a place many years ago.
> The points you are making are valid in most trades and jobs today. Union or not.
> ...


If you last sentence is true, just keep paying your dues (or become a member, if you're not), and HELP the IBEW achieve it! Where I come from , the disparity is not so great, and no one makes enough money. But my Union wages sure are better than the non-Union alternative!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Wages are not meant to be a means of simply "getting by". Wages are our (the workers) reward for our sweat and our blood and our strained muscles and our decrepit conditions when we get old.


Who every told you that life would be easy or even remotly fair?

If you wanted the big money you should have gone to collage.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Who every told you that life would be easy or even remotly fair?
> 
> If you wanted the big money you should have gone to collage.


If I wanted 'the big money', I would have become an international drug smuggler.:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If I wanted 'the big money', I would have become an international drug smuggler.:whistling2:


And some of them went to good schools. :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> And some of them went to good schools. :blink:



Thanks for the tip.














"Hey, Vinnie! I just got an idea for a great market!..........."


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes of course, it is entirely believable that each union electrician has exactly the same skills and motivation, they are identical.:no::laughing:


The ones that are not are the guys that are working non-union and have the red a** about the IBEW.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> The ones that are not are the guys that are working non-union and have the red a** about the IBEW.


Oh John ........... it really blows your credibility when you say such stupid crap. :laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks again to all that took the time to post on this thread. For the most part we have all been civil to each other.I have read though that someone was trying to impose their union will on an unwilling participant without any clarification on these specific activities. Back maybe 17 years ago I witnessed an agressive attack on organizing efforts by our IO(international) but hey if you say someone is being aggressive with you without giving us any details you leave us to believe you or our lying eyes. I have not heard or seen anything of such nature at ALL in many YEARS. We are all in the same line of work if you are happy I am happy for you. I only started this thread to express one of the many reasons why I am happy to be in the IBEW.Over the course of 28 years I have seen this type of unselfish acts hundreds of times, I thought maybe someone from an open shop could have shared one of those experiences with us all. Or maybe just express GOOD WILL within the electrical field of work.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Who every told you that life would be easy or even remotly fair?
> 
> If you wanted the big money you should have gone to collage.



Haha Bob... You sooo funny. I did, actually, go to college, and learned to spell "college".

And you are right about life not being fair. I am glad that you have accepted it, and are willing to lay there and hold still while life has it's way with you.

I, on the other hand, am not willing to lay there and hold still. I am willing to strive for a more perfect Union, with regards to the IBEW, and the USA. Those words are straight out of the Constitution of the United States. Come to think of it, the people who wrote that document were not willing to lay there and hold still, either! 

So, you just lay there and hold still, because life isn't fair. If you want to use that as an excuse, that's fine with me!! I think you like it:laughing:!

I like you, Bob. At least a fellow knows where he stands (or lays) with you!


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Thanks again to all that took the time to post on this thread. For the most part we have all been civil to each other.I have read though that someone was trying to impose their union will on an unwilling participant without any clarification on these specific activities. Back maybe 17 years ago I witnessed an agressive attack on organizing efforts by our IO(international) but hey if you say someone is being aggressive with you without giving us any details you leave us to believe you or our lying eyes. I have not heard or seen anything of such nature at ALL in many YEARS. We are all in the same line of work if you are happy I am happy for you. I only started this thread to express one of the many reasons why I am happy to be in the IBEW.Over the course of 28 years I have seen this type of unselfish acts hundreds of times, I thought maybe someone from an open shop could have shared one of those experiences with us all. Or maybe just express GOOD WILL within the electrical field of work.


Brother Noah,

We truly are a contentious lot here, aren't we? You'll get used to it. It makes for lively debate, and as long as no one gets their feelings hurt:laughing:, I think it's healthy. 

Except Bob. He has no feelings. Bob is a machine!:thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Haha Bob... You sooo funny. I did, actually, go to college, and learned to spell "college".


Never claimed to be a scholar.



> And you are right about life not being fair. I am glad that you have accepted it, and are willing to lay there and hold still while life has it's way with you.


I am doing fine, and I am proud to say it is of all of my own doing. 


> I, on the other hand, am not willing to lay there and hold still. I am willing to strive for a more perfect Union, with regards to the IBEW, and the USA. Those words are straight out of the Constitution of the United States. Come to think of it, the people who wrote that document were not willing to lay there and hold still, either!


Hold on their partner, the founding fathers where after Freedom not socialism which is what the union is really about. I think they would find many of the unions goals and actions to go against what they fought for.

So your words make no sense at all.




> So, you just lay there and hold still, because life isn't fair. If you want to use that as an excuse, that's fine with me!!


Again I am doing fine, I do not need to nurse off of the IBEWs tit. Of course if you are a slacker I can see the appeal. :thumbsup:




> I think you like it


I do like being self made.



> I like you, Bob. At least a fellow knows where he stands (or lays) with you!


Once again in English this time.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Hold on their partner, the founding fathers where after Freedom not socialism which is what the union is really about. I think they would find many of the unions goals and actions to go against what they fought for.
> 
> So your words make no sense at all.


Wrong again, non-scholar!!! Unions are not about socialism any more than the AGC, ABC, SECA, AMA, NRA, Chamber of Commerce, and any other association that comes together as a body for the purpose of adavncing their cause! And I bet that you, Bob, are a member of some organization (maybe even one listed above) that fits that description!!! So you, *by your own definition*, are likely to be a "closet socialist":laughing:! If you are not a member of any organizations that come together to further their own cause, then I sincerely apologize. 

I *was* wrong earlier, but you didn't catch it. And I will correct my mistake here. You aren't the one who is content to lay there and hold still... You're the one asking US to lay there and hold still! That's your mentality, at least. And that's ok... It takes all kinds to make a world. 

Believe me when I say this Bob... No one here is trying to convince you to go Union. It's ok. Relax. Hold still.:laughing::laughing:

And I still like you, Bob:thumbsup:.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Wrong again, non-scholar!!! Unions are not about socialism any more than the AGC, ABC, SECA, AMA, NRA, Chamber of Commerce, and any other association that comes together as a body for the purpose of adavncing their cause!


You are flat out wrong here, if you want to keep your blinders in place for your comfort so be it.





> And I bet that you, Bob, are a member of some organization (maybe even one listed above) that fits that description!!!


And once again you would be wrong.



> You aren't the one who is content to lay there and hold still... You're the one asking US to lay there and hold still! That's your mentality, at least. And that's ok... It takes all kinds to make a world.


No, my mentality is to be self sufficient and not to use an organization to extort money from businesses. 



> And I still like you, Bob:thumbsup:.


Sorry, I am not gay, you will have to hit on someone else.:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh John ........... it really blows your credibility when you say such stupid crap. :laughing:


Funny thing for me is that I am not interested in your approval.
You speak from the toothless end on this forum and are considered an irrelevant troll here.

I like you better over at Mikes place.:thumbsup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Funny thing for me is that I am not interested in your approval.
> You speak from the toothless end on this forum and are considered an irrelevant troll here.
> 
> I like you better over at Mikes place.:thumbsup:


Bob isn't an irrelevant troll. A troll, maybe, but definitely not irrelevant. I, for one, appreciate his ranting and insults. He's a funny guy! He hates the idea of being Union, says he never will be, butyet he sticks around this forum... mostly to amuse the rest of us, I think. He has his little role to play, and doesn't really control or effect any marketshare, so let's just be content to call him the court jester! 

Sometimes, he even makes good points for those of us in the Union to consider. I seem to have some difficulty recalling any of them, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day!


----------



## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You are flat out wrong here, if you want to keep your blinders in place for your comfort so be it.


So you don't think that the AGC comes together to further their own cause? And I'm the one with blinders on? :laughing:HAHAHAHA!! You soooo funny, Bob! Heck, the members of the AGC even pay DUES! So do the members of the ABC, NRA, Chamber of Commerce, and the AMA!

You just can't handle it, can you Bob? Please don't get frustrated and leave... I so dearly appreciate your cute little rantings of nonsense!

And I don't like you *that way*, Bob, you silly goose. Especially if John's right about the whole "toothless" thing! I just like your sense of humor.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> So you don't think that the AGC comes together to further their own cause? And I'm the one with blinders on? :laughing:HAHAHAHA!! You soooo funny, Bob! Heck, the members of the AGC even pay DUES! So do the members of the ABC, NRA, Chamber of Commerce, and the AMA!
> 
> You just can't handle it, can you Bob? Please don't get frustrated and leave... I so dearly appreciate your cute little rantings of nonsense!
> 
> And I don't like you *that way*, Bob, you silly goose. Especially if John's right about the whole "toothless" thing! I just like your sense of humor.



Oh no... now some naive little man will say to the union crowd... "at least our dues don't go to pay for politicians we don't even agree with". And forget about the fact that political contributions are done through PAC, Cope, ect... and that we CHOOSE to contribute or not.

And when you do bring it to their attention they seem to forget about it rather quickly and bring it up again somewhere down the road in another post. :no:


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> And I don't like you *that way*, Bob, you silly goose. Especially if John's right about the whole "toothless" thing! I just like your sense of humor.



Mmmmmm a good gummin' is always nice. :w00t:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> Oh no... now some naive little man will say to the union crowd... "at least our dues don't go to pay for politicians we don't even agree with". And forget about the fact that political contributions are done through PAC, Cope, ect... and that we CHOOSE to contribute or not.
> 
> And when you do bring it to their attention they seem to forget about it rather quickly and bring it up again somewhere down the road in another post. :no:


That's right. And I believe that we have indeed crossed that bridge a few times here. But that's ok... we know the truth. And as long as you know truth, and the adversary does not, you have power. Remember that in negotiations!


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

*Been on both sides*

Oh the famous Union vs. Non-Union discussion--I love it--

My experience--went through the ABC Apprenticeship--worked for maybe 7 yrs. running work, did prevailing rate work mostly (schools prisons municipal buildings). Then decided; well some of my friends joined the Union--why not--took the test--went to work as a Union JW--on 2nd. project became a foreman.. Worked for a good 7 yrs. as a dedicated Union man--went to all meetings--met alot of good men, abided by the contract always, treated the men like I always have-with respect. Then got laid-off--first time in 14 yrs. liked the first 2 months--until I seen 700 men on the bench waiting along side me---

Had to make a decision---did going through 3 yrs. of Vo-tech in high school and then 4 yrs in apprenticeship program equal to me struggling --paying for my house and paying my bills--new house-- couple of acres of land new toys--bike---sitting around waiting for my number to come up--- aghhh nope--

So, I applied for a electrical estimating position, tested in, started bidding--was low bidder a couple times, moved up from the $400K projects to today going after $36 Million PLUS projects. 

Now (today) in almost 21 years---laid-off the second time--so here I am today..

Did I make the right decision? I believe I did and actually enjoyed working on BOTH SIDES---and came to the conclusion, that neither side knows didly about the other.. They both rely on rumors and false information about each other---the great debate is who is more greedy--union or non-union... Answer---all contractors and all organizations are greedy and it comes down to the almighty DOLLAR---just like everything else in the world...

Solution--do what makes you happy--and just a thought--maybe Americans should stop fighting each other---and work together for the best possible life -- because boys and girls you only get ONE...

One good thing is--now looking for work--i can get the project manager job, the estimator job or the foreman job, or just the electrician job... One thing staying UNION would have cancelled out the Estimtor and project manager positions.... 

Overall---because of the prevailing rate--I made the same Union vs. NON... So my conclusion is; they are BOTH the same---had losers on both sides, had great electricians on both sides--been stabbed in the back Union and Non---
Oh and the dues issue--almost forgot---
yes dues are paid--not much considering the whole package--
Prevailing rate on Non union side-you basically pay your dues--when they take your whole benefit package to pay for your benes---
So, it comes out to be the same in most cases in my experience...


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Funny thing for me is that I am not interested in your approval.


I never expected you lived and died based on what someone from MA said.



> You speak from the toothless end on this forum and are considered an irrelevant troll here.


:laughing:

Yeah keep telling yourself that, it might make you feel better.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> You just can't handle it, can you Bob? Please don't get frustrated and leave...


What the hell are you rambling about?:jester:

No one on this forum takes you as anything more than a union parrot and I have no problem handling people that only repeat what they heard at the hall.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> One good thing is--now looking for work--i can get the project manager job, the estimator job or the foreman job, or just the electrician job... One thing staying UNION would have cancelled out the Estimtor and project manager positions....
> 
> Oh and the dues issue--almost forgot---
> yes dues are paid--not much considering the whole package--
> ...


I can agree with almost everything you've said, bulldog, except the two statements above.

Let me explain...

Union contractors also employ estimators and project managers. The Union will not prohibit anyone from taking either position, and you would even be welcome to keep your ticket, but you would no longer be under the CBA, and could not attend meetings without special permission from your BA.

Being in North Carolina, I can say from experience and with full confidence that our beni's are some of the poorest in the nation. With that said, as a JW in my home Local, I get family health coverage as just one of my benefits. This health coverage costs my employer $800 per month, based on full time hours (160 hrs/month). I pay nowhere near that in dues. Working assessment and monthly dues combined costs me less than $200 per month. And this is in regard to only ONE benefit. It does not work out to be the same at all. Not even close. We, as Union members, also don't have to worry about a contractor going under and taking all of our retirement with them, as the retirements are administrated and controlled by the IBEW and its trustees.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> What the hell are you rambling about?:jester:
> 
> No one on this forum takes you as anything more than a union parrot and I have no problem handling people that only repeat what they heard at the hall.



How about those who didn't hear it at the Hall, but said it for others to hear? 

And NO ONE on this forum?? REALLY?? You know 'em all, I guess. You're the expert! I would never pretend to know EVERYONE on this forum as you do, because I find it very arrogant to make assumptions on the behalf of others, but not being a Union man, I would NEVER expect you to understand that! 

C'mon... admit it. You like me. I can argue with you all day long, and never get mad like the others do. Most folks here seem to get upset with you, Bob. But not me. I'll never lose hope that somewhere inside, you are a closet commie with socialistic tendencies and WAYYY more radical than anyone else here! 

I'm laughing so hard right now I can barely type!!

C'mon... reply, Bob. You know you want.... scratch that... HAVE TO!!!

Mwah-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaa!!!:devil2:


----------



## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> I can agree with almost everything you've said, bulldog, except the two statements above.
> 
> Let me explain...
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> How about those who didn't hear it at the Hall, but said it for others to hear?
> 
> And NO ONE on this forum?? REALLY?? You know 'em all, I guess. You're the expert! I would never pretend to know EVERYONE on this forum as you do, because I find it very arrogant to make assumptions on the behalf of others, but not being a Union man, I would NEVER expect you to understand that!
> 
> ...


Keep talking you just help me prove my points with each post. :thumbsup:


----------



## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> :thumbsup:


Ok... I see what you're saying with regards to the beni's. Here in NC, PW is about $14/hour, so that NEVER comes into play.

As far as Union electrical contractors not wanting to hire you into their shops... truly unfortunate. I am sure it was their loss. It happens all the time here. 

We come from two different worlds... Sorry to misunderstand!:thumbsup:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> Ok... I see what you're saying with regards to the beni's. Here in NC, PW is about $14/hour, so that NEVER comes into play.
> 
> As far as Union electrical contractors not wanting to hire you into their shops... truly unfortunate. I am sure it was their loss. It happens all the time here.
> 
> We come from two different worlds... Sorry to misunderstand!:thumbsup:


No problem brother---NC still booming? Its a shame you guys couldnt up your rates with the latest boom the last what 8-10 yrs. Geez $14 hr. prev rate?? The Prev rate up here is the exact Union rate so its an even game with bidding...


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> No problem brother---NC still booming? Its a shame you guys couldnt up your rates with the latest boom the last what 8-10 yrs. Geez $14 hr. prev rate?? The Prev rate up here is the exact Union rate so its an even game with bidding...


We're not exactly booming... but we are busy. Not sure how long it's going to last. There simply isn't enough work for everyone in the trade. But there is more work coming this fall/winter. Until then, we will be finishing projects!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> I can agree with almost everything you've said, bulldog, except the two statements above.
> 
> Let me explain...
> 
> ...


Actually, you are paying that $800 a month. Your membership was awarded $ during negotiations of your CBA. Your membership decided to allocate those funds into your health benefits. The contractor is writing the check, but it is actually your money. It's not free. You would be better off insurance wise if you could opt out and purchased an individual policy or had your wife carry for you.

How can an employer take an individuals retirement? The worst case scenario is you will lose a month or possibly a quarter, depneding on how it was set up. If part of a benefit package for an employee is a 401k, the contractor can deposit any amount on your behalf, but he can't pull money out of an account that is in your name. 

Maybe you are thinking something like Enron could happen. Those people on the news lost their retirement because they were involved in a GESOP. They lost their investment because they put all their eggs into one basket. Their company. Never invest all your retirement in your own company (as an employee). If they would of had the majority of their retirement in stocks/bonds/funds, they would still have their money.

If those fund managers start making bad decisions and start costing you, you could always move your money around. What happens when your local starts making bad investments in your pension and you start losing money?


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> Actually, you are paying that $800 a month. Your membership was awarded $ during negotiations of your CBA.
> 
> --actually the contractor is paying that as part of the package he "pays" it is lumped in as a package but there is no such thing as opting out of the Union package like NON--can do--
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Actually, you are paying that $800 a month. Your membership was awarded $ during negotiations of your CBA. Your membership decided to allocate those funds into your health benefits. The contractor is writing the check, but it is actually your money. It's not free. You would be better off insurance wise if you could opt out and purchased an individual policy or had your wife carry for you.
> 
> *The same coverage outside of my group would cost me $1100 per month with BC/BS (our current carrier). I already checked into it at the request of some of my brothers here.*
> 
> ...


It doesn't take an "Enron disaster" to deplete or eliminate a man's 401k. 

By the way... It's not the employer that takes the money. It's the bonding company that seizes the assets of a company when it goes under. IBEW pensions have been some of the most stable since their inception. While I trust nothing on Earth absolutely, I choose to trust the IBEW and its trustees over a contractor ANYDAY. Life is inherently uncertain, but we all have to hedge our bets!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> It doesn't take an "Enron disaster" to deplete or eliminate a man's 401k.


Really? 

Explain how my 401 K is less secure then your IBEW pension.



> By the way... It's not the employer that takes the money. It's the bonding company that seizes the assets of a company when it goes under.


The bonding company or the courts, but 401Ks are not assets of the company.



> I choose to trust the IBEW and its trustees over a contractor ANYDAY.


No electrical contractor is in control of the employees 401K contributions.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> It doesn't take an "Enron disaster" to deplete or eliminate a man's 401k.
> 
> ---true very true--
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Really?
> 
> Explain how my 401 K is less secure then your IBEW pension?
> 
> ...


Actually a non union company can limit your 401K contributions also can eliminate their contribution matching yours at any time...Too boot many Non-contractors control when you can even contribute to their 401K "plan" many make you wait a YEAR of employment before you can even "join" the plan....


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Really?
> 
> Explain how my 401 K is less secure then your IBEW pension.
> 
> ...


Just read on, Bob... Bulldog puts it very well. You might even lern sumthing tooday!!! Yay for Bob!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No electrical contractor is in control of the employees 401K contributions.


I completely agree. The worst that can happen is they don't make the last payments. 

When I was younger I worked in a restaurant and left mid year. The business was sold at the end of the year. The original owner decided to "take" the employer share (6.2%) of the social security benefits of all his employees on his way out of state. I lost 6 months. Not a lot of money, so he got a way with it.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Actually a non union company can limit your 401K contributions


Maybe they can, the Govt does, but that was not what we were talking about.




> also can eliminate their contribution matching yours at any time...


Yes, they can cut any of my benefits they provide at anytime, they can cut my wage in half tomorrow. But no one is putting a gun to my head saying I have to stay there, I can choose to leave anytime I want.

And again try to stay on topic, the issue brought up and the one you choose to quote about was the security of my 401K as compared to an IBEW pension





> Too boot many Non-contractors control when you can even contribute to their 401K "plan" many make you wait a YEAR of employment before you can even "join" the plan....


Yes some do, some 3 months, again this is no secret and would be brought up at interview time, no one is forced to work for anyone.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Just read on, Bob... Bulldog puts it very well. You might even lern sumthing tooday!!! Yay for Bob!


Actually he did not put it well at all, half truths and off topic BS.


----------



## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe they can, the Govt does, but that was not what we were talking about.
> 
> --actually it was what I was talking about the good bad and ugly of BOTH sides of the fence--BOTH I have experienced--
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

And how secure is your IBEW pension? I have a family member in one of the largest locals in the country. When he was in his 20's, he was told he would need x amount of hours and this is the formula for how much he would be taking home at retirement. He did the quick math and if all went well, he would of had a full early out in his late 40's. His late 40's come around, they add more years and changed the formula. Now he'd be looking at early 50's and a smaller pension. They changed it again, adding more years, and changing formulas. Now he is stuck waiting till he is 63 for a full pension. He's 62 and on the books, and his early out (at 62) is way less, so he has to collect UB till retirement age. He also had quite a few years where his pension was losing money. In the 8 or 9 percent rate per year. This was during the mid to late 90's when us dumb ass 'lectricians were making 40% in the market.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Actually he did not put it well at all, half truths and off topic BS.


Not at all----no half truths given--plenty of examples---off topic--not really all in relation to $$$$$


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> And how secure is your IBEW pension? I have a family member in one of the largest locals in the country. When he was in his 20's, he was told he would need x amount of hours and this is the formula for how much he would be taking home at retirement. He did the quick math and if all went well, he would of had a full early out in his late 40's. His late 40's come around, they add more years and changed the formula. Now he'd be looking at early 50's and a smaller pension. They changed it again, adding more years, and changing formulas. Now he is stuck waiting till he is 63 for a full pension. He's 62 and on the books, and his early out (at 62) is way less, so he has to collect UB till retirement age. He also had quite a few years where his pension was losing money. In the 8 or 9 percent rate per year. This was during the mid to late 90's when us dumb ass 'lectricians were making 40% in the market.


Sounds like a local that didnt allow for online investment options--didnt he go to meetings? Changing percentages for the worst? Never heard a LOCAL act that crazy before--wont deny that some dont do their members justice though----But in conclusion many lectricians retire with no 401K and no pension at all.....Non-union--while unions always have at least a retirement most have retirement and annuity at 62 PLUS-- Sounds like your family member should have RAN for BA---to make sure he was taken care of--members to WEAK to make a change for their own good sake? Union--the members dictate what they get in their package---if they want more in their check or more in their benes they vote on it and thats where the $$$$$ goes---changing % for the worst sounds like a WEAK local, with un-informed members----afraid to make a change-- ??? Sucks! Sorry to hear about that!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

> ---the security of a IBEW is better because they have BILLIONS invested not 100's of Millions from non union--for them it would be very difficult to lose out on their "total" investments..


dude, you are way off. if all the trade unions combined their billions they have invested, it would probably be less than 15% of the gabazillions invested in the market. The non-union side would fall into the larger piece of the pie.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> [Q]---the security of a IBEW is better because they have BILLIONS invested not 100's of Millions from non union--for them it would be very difficult to lose out on their "total" investments..[/Q]
> 
> dude, you are way off. if all the trade unions combined their billions they have invested, it would probably be less than 15% of the gabazillions invested in the market. The non-union side would fall into the larger piece of the pie.



Sorry----Billions just from IBEW---compared to Millions from non union 401K
yes overall--they cant compare Im just comparing contractors union vs. union


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> :thumbsup:





bulldog1770 said:


> Sounds like a local that didnt allow for online investment options--didnt he go to meetings? Changing percentages for the worst? Never heard a LOCAL act that crazy before--wont deny that some dont do their members justice though----But in conclusion many lectricians retire with no 401K and no pension at all.....Non-union--while unions always have at least a retirement most have retirement and annuity at 62 PLUS-- Sounds like your family member should have RAN for BA---to make sure he was taken care of--members to WEAK to make a change for their own good sake? Union--the members dictate what they get in their package---if they want more in their check or more in their benes they vote on it and thats where the $$$$$ goes---changing % for the worst sounds like a WEAK local, with un-informed members----afraid to make a change-- ??? Sucks! Sorry to hear about that!


His local didn't do anything online till last year. As far as the changing of the years and pensions, members had no say. This was never voted on, they were just told this is what is gonna happen. The local has been sued many times, but this local might as well be run by Clinton. Nothing ever sticks.

As far as pensions/retirement/401k's go, I am lot more confident managing my own money and planning for my own retirement, than to be promised a pension that may or may not be there in 30 years.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Sorry----Billions just from IBEW---compared to Millions from non union 401K
> yes overall--they cant compare Im just comparing contractors union vs. union


Yeah, but there's not this big non-union organization that pools all this money for non-union electrician employees. A shop sets up an account with a fund manager who deals with Fidelity, Janus, Ameriprise, ect. The same way every other American does it at their 9 to 5 job.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> His local didn't do anything online till last year. As far as the changing of the years and pensions, members had no say.
> 
> ---must not have been IBEW---???
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I completely agree. The worst that can happen is they don't make the last payments.
> 
> When I was younger I worked in a restaurant and left mid year. The business was sold at the end of the year. The original owner decided to "take" the employer share (6.2%) of the social security benefits of all his employees on his way out of state. I lost 6 months. Not a lot of money, so he got a way with it.



No... the worst that can happen is they file for bankruptcy and you lose everything. Sad, but nonetheless true.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Sorry----Billions just from IBEW---compared to Millions from non union 401K
> yes overall--they cant compare Im just comparing contractors union vs. union


The amount of money does not show more security.

You obviously have no idea at all how a 401K works which if you have a pension makes perfect sense. I have a 401K so I have little idea how the pension works.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> No... the worst that can happen is they file for bankruptcy and you lose everything. Sad, but nonetheless true.


:laughing:

No, there is nothing that can the company can do, and nothing that can happen to the company that will take away my 401K.

My 401K is in the hands of Fidelity Investments, it is not controlled by the EC I work for at all.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> :thumbsup:


Bulldog why not help us out and learn how to use quotes?

:laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

You mean to tell me with all the people on this site not one person can express a moment in time when others help someone in their time of need? I am sure that many of us have made efforts to assure ourself of economic stability in our elderly years but I do not really feel the urge to gloat or cry about it. It is an issue that is a life time in the works. Yes invest wise and steady and it will give you the leisure life when you no longer work.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Bulldog why not help us out and learn how to use quotes?
> 
> I like writing in between the lines and do understand how to quote correctly--and yes I do have a pension and annuity and yes there is power in money the more a "organization" invests the more power they have I was very simply comparing a bunch of non union contractors that offer a 401K to the IBEW which has Billions in the coffers in the 401K they participate into. Contractors only control the circumstances of how one gets into a 401K not much more than that besides what they will match etc.. Bottom line is do the research and make sure your money is doing what "you" want it to do...
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> No, there is nothing that can the company can do, and nothing that can happen to the company that will take away my 401K.
> 
> My 401K is in the hands of Fidelity Investments, it is not controlled by the EC I work for at all.



Good for you Bob! And once again, you fail to realize that you are not the only person in the world! No one said that YOU could lose YOUR pension... we only said that if your 401k is vested in the company, and the company goes bankrupt, you will lose it. 

Some guys may have trouble with the quotes, but you seem to have trouble listening (or reading, in this case), and that, to me, is a much bigger problem:whistling2:.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> Good for you Bob! And once again, you fail to realize that you are not the only person in the world! No one said that YOU could lose YOUR pension... we only said that if your 401k is vested in the company, and the company goes bankrupt, you will lose it.
> 
> ----yes that is true only 401K with a financial investment company not a contractor or manufacturer..
> 
> ...


You guys-- lectricians can be so touchy today--- :laughing:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> You guys-- lectricians can be so touchy today--- :laughing:



But I still think Bob is cool... just a little rough around the edges. Old Badger!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

boulengerina said:


> But I still think Bob is cool... just a little rough around the edges. Old Badger!


It is good to see you have found a new friend, even though he spells his name backwards.With all your travels with the IBEW have you not one case of good will to express?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

boulengerina said:


> Good for you Bob! And once again, you fail to realize that you are not the only person in the world! No one said that YOU could lose YOUR pension... we only said that if your 401k is vested in the company, and the company goes bankrupt, you will lose it.


You really need to listen.

NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO A COMPANY THE 401K FUNDS ARE NOT TOUCHABLE!​:no:

Is that clear enough for you?:jester:

The 401K funds are not in the companies bank or control.




> Some guys may have trouble with the quotes, but you seem to have trouble listening (or reading, in this case), and that, to me, is a much bigger problem:whistling2:.


So explain it to me, how can _any_ employee loose their 401K funds if the company they work for goes under?

I promise I will listen to what you say and try to understand it.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> I like writing in between the lines and do understand how to quote correctly--


Do what you want but it makes it very difficult for others to respond to your points ......... but maybe that is why you do not quote.


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You really need to listen.
> 
> NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO A COMPANY THE 401K FUNDS ARE NOT TOUCHABLE!:no:​
> Is that clear enough for you?:jester:
> ...



Ok... If your 401k is invested in the company that you work for (this is typically the case in the two Carolinas, and anywhere else that Union density is very low), and that company goes under by filing for bankruptcy, the bonding company that insures that shop comes in and seizes all of the assets of that shop. When this happens, the shop's investments are seized, too. That includes 401k's. 

Now, in your situation, Bob, your 401k is safe from such a problem, since you are investing through an investment firm that puts your money all over the place. Fidelity would certainly not take an employees money and invest it back into the employee's shop. The contractors that do this do not use an investment firm. They set up their own 401k through their bank, typically. It's kind of like the stock market... if you invest $400,000 in General Motors, and the company goes under, you can lose all of your money. But if Fidelity invests your money in GM, they are going to invest it in other things as well, unless for some reason you tell them not to.

It depends on where the money is invested. If the money is in a ship that sinks, you lose, and if the money is in a bunch of ships (like yours and mine), and one goes down, it's usually not a big loss.

I promise you this really is how it works for a lot of people. I know it doesn't sound fair (because it's not), and no self-investing shop would ever explain this to their employees, due to the fact that most of us would never participate in such a load of crap!

Please realize that I'm not talking about a personal 401k through an investment firm. You are correct that this can't happen when the money is handled by a firm, but it it is handled "in-house", this CAN HAPPEN. I have seen it happen firsthand, and can provide roughly 200 references that will attest that it has happened to them!

Not to be antagonistic (really trying not to be), but whether you believe this or not does not change the fact that it is true. This is the American way, Bob. Without better regulations on the finance industry, this will never change, either.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Do what you want but it makes it very difficult for others to respond to your points ......... but maybe that is why you do not quote.



ummm one that trusts not--isnt trustworthy??? :notworthy:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> Ok... If your 401k is invested in the company that you work for (this is typically the case in the two Carolinas, and anywhere else that Union density is very low), and that company goes under by filing for bankruptcy, the bonding company that insures that shop comes in and seizes all of the assets of that shop. When this happens, the shop's investments are seized, too. That includes 401k's.
> 
> Now, in your situation, Bob, your 401k is safe from such a problem, since you are investing through an investment firm that puts your money all over the place. Fidelity would certainly not take an employees money and invest it back into the employee's shop. The contractors that do this do not use an investment firm. They set up their own 401k through their bank, typically. It's kind of like the stock market... if you invest $400,000 in General Motors, and the company goes under, you can lose all of your money. But if Fidelity invests your money in GM, they are going to invest it in other things as well, unless for some reason you tell them not to.
> 
> ...


I would say 1,000's can say you are correct a steel company in PA, went under and all the employees 401K and pension funds went bye bye with that company.... 

401K and pensions through an investment company like JP Morgan that I use protect you from such things--they are not company affiliated nor even invest in the company at all---


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> It is good to see you have found a new friend, even though he spells his name backwards.With all your travels with the IBEW have you not one case of good will to express?



Sure! Plenty! And now I understand your last post! I think that you are under the impression that you asked this in the starter thread, but you didn't. But since you are asking now..... Local 379 just passed the hat for a brother in need (he has cancer, and can't work... he actually found this out while he was working), and raised several thousand dollars. We also fund-raise for MDA (Jerry's Kids) every year, and last year raised well over $10,000. We also support our local Shriner Hospital (Burn center), and a home for pregnant and abused women. We had a member who was tragically killed on his lunch break by some gang-member initiate (shot in his car while eating his lunch and reading his Bible... no kidding), and until the youngest of his kids reached 18 years of age, we contributed generously to the wife of this member so that she could buy Christmas gifts for her kids, and just recently contributed to his daughter's college fund. 

If this Local can help someone who deserves it, or a worthy cause, we are always happy to do so!


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> Sure! Plenty! And now I understand your last post! I think that you are under the impression that you asked this in the starter thread, but you didn't. But since you are asking now..... Local 379 just passed the hat for a brother in need (he has cancer, and can't work... he actually found this out while he was working), and raised several thousand dollars. We also fund-raise for MDA (Jerry's Kids) every year, and last year raised well over $10,000. We also support our local Shriner Hospital (Burn center), and a home for pregnant and abused women. We had a member who was tragically killed on his lunch break by some gang-member initiate (shot in his car while eating his lunch and reading his Bible... no kidding), and until the youngest of his kids reached 18 years of age, we contributed generously to the wife of this member so that she could buy Christmas gifts for her kids, and just recently contributed to his daughter's college fund.
> 
> If this Local can help someone who deserves it, or a worthy cause, we are always happy to do so!


My old Local gave every month to a FOOD Bank, they also passed the hat after 9-11, on one job alone came up with $11,000.00 donation, also lots and lots of free labor to local carnivals and local charitable events--setting up generators and installing lights etc etc...... :thumbsup:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> My old Local gave every month to a FOOD Bank, they also passed the hat after 9-11, on one job alone came up with $11,000.00 donation, also lots and lots of free labor to local carnivals and local charitable events--setting up generators and installing lights etc etc...... :thumbsup:



Many years ago we used to help set up "Festival in the Park", a large festival here in Charlotte. But we ended up with a LAZY BM (since replaced), and he let that go. We are trying to "re-involve" ourselves with such activities, but since the municipal maintenance folks took over, the city seems uninterested in free help. Strange huh? I think it is some form of self-justification on their part. And if a man can get paid to do it, good for him and his family. I also think this is a big reason that we haven't pushed harder. In a city like Charlotte, we'd get labeled as bad guys for "taking" their work. The South sure is a funny place...:blink:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> Many years ago we used to help set up "Festival in the Park", a large festival here in Charlotte. But we ended up with a LAZY BM (since replaced), and he let that go. We are trying to "re-involve" ourselves with such activities, but since the municipal maintenance folks took over, the city seems uninterested in free help. Strange huh? I think it is some form of self-justification on their part. And if a man can get paid to do it, good for him and his family. I also think this is a big reason that we haven't pushed harder. In a city like Charlotte, we'd get labeled as bad guys for "taking" their work. The South sure is a funny place...:blink:


Being a Yankee--I learned through Ft. Benning GA. US Army that I would never understand the Suthern folk----Did a lot of push-ups because I couldnt understand Y'ALL :laughing:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Y'ALL :laughing:



At least you learned our "sub-national" word!!!


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> Being a Yankee--I learned through Ft. Benning GA. US Army that I would never understand the Suthern folk----Did a lot of push-ups because I couldnt understand Y'ALL :laughing:


Hey Y'ALL watch this.:laughing:


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Hey Y'ALL wath this.:laughing:


*******'s last words, right? This is WAYYY off topic, but it's funny, so here goes...

A good friend of mine and several aquaintances were four wheeling one day, and we were all tired and chilling out with a coldie. My buddy yells out "Hey y'all, watch this!", and attempted to do a wheelie on his big Honda 4X4, but the goodball had the machine in reverse!!!! He goosed it, dropped out the clutch, and busted his face ALL OVER his handlebars/gear rack. 

It's funny now, as he made a full recovery, but it was kinda scary then. Screw that... it was funny then, too... you'd just have to know this guy. Epitome of *******!


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> *******'s last words, right? This is WAYYY off topic, but it's funny, so here goes...
> 
> A good friend of mine and several aquaintances were four wheeling one day, and we were all tired and chilling out with a coldie. My buddy yells out "Hey y'all, watch this!", and attempted to do a wheelie on his big Honda 4X4, but the goodball had the machine in reverse!!!! He goosed it, dropped out the clutch, and busted his face ALL OVER his handlebars/gear rack.
> 
> It's funny now, as he made a full recovery, but it was kinda scary then. Screw that... it was funny then, too... you'd just have to know this guy. Epitome of *******!


 :laughing::laughing: I know a few like that.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Hey Y'ALL wath this.:laughing:


Cuz they ain't got no teeth :laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Cuz they ain't got no teeth :laughing:


 :laughing: There is County around here that is known for that. So they say that no one has a full set of teeth.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

bulldog1770 said:


> Being a Yankee--I learned through Ft. Benning GA. US Army that I would never understand the Suthern folk----Did a lot of push-ups because I couldnt understand Y'ALL :laughing:


Sand Hill?
Ho Rah

A 401k MUST be held by an investment company, such as Vangard, Fidelity...

The only way you can lose the 401k if a company goes under, is have your investments in that company. That is what happened with Enron.

Simple thing to do is not invest in your company inside your 401k.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jbfan said:


> The only way you can lose the 401k if a company goes under, is have your investments in that company. That is what happened with Enron.
> 
> Simple thing to do is not invest in your company inside your 401k.


I agree and darn few merit shops are publicly traded so it is almost a non-issue. Also any 401K I have been involed in let me choose how and what to invest in. 

Here is some Enron info.



> On December 2, 2001 the Enron Corporation filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy
> protection in federal court in New York. Enron sponsors a retirement plan – a “401(k)”
> – for its employees to which they can contribute a portion of their pay on a tax-deferred
> basis. *As of December 31, 2000, 62% of the assets held in the corporation’s 401(k)
> ...


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

never mind...........................


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## boulengerina (May 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree and darn few merit shops are publicly traded so it is almost a non-issue. Also any 401K I have been involed in let me choose how and what to invest in.
> 
> Here is some Enron info.


The company does not have to be publicly traded... and of course, you have the option of creating your own 401k through an investment firm, but the company does not have to match it. The companies that "self invest" with their employees' 401k usually use the "comapny match" as a lure. 

This issue may not be common in other places, but it is fairly common here. Many of the larger non-Union shops participate in this dubious activity, to the detriment of their employees. I could list several, but won't, AS I GOT A CALL AND MUST GO TO WORK!!!! Yeee-Hawwwww! (there's another one for ya, bulldog!).

See y'all later!


----------



## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

jbfan said:


> Sand Hill?
> Ho Rah
> 
> A 401k MUST be held by an investment company, such as Vangard, Fidelity...
> ...


Harmony Church we were last group that went through before they gave it to the Rangers---Sand Hill was what we were wishing for, Harmony had 1 fan for each floor and no AC--WWII barracks---werent we lucky--it was a very hot summer!


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> The company does not have to be publicly traded... and of course, you have the option of creating your own 401k through an investment firm, but the company does not have to match it. The companies that "self invest" with their employees' 401k usually use the "comapny match" as a lure.
> 
> This issue may not be common in other places, but it is fairly common here. Many of the larger non-Union shops participate in this dubious activity, to the detriment of their employees. I could list several, but won't, AS I GOT A CALL AND MUST GO TO WORK!!!! Yeee-Hawwwww! (there's another one for ya, bulldog!).
> 
> See y'all later!


Got a call--back to work eghh??---thats great!! :thumbsup:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

boulengerina said:


> The company does not have to be publicly traded... and of course, you have the option of creating your own 401k through an investment firm, but the company does not have to match it. The companies that "self invest" with their employees' 401k usually use the "comapny match" as a lure.
> 
> This issue may not be common in other places, but it is fairly common here. Many of the larger non-Union shops participate in this dubious activity, to the detriment of their employees. I could list several, but won't, AS I GOT A CALL AND MUST GO TO WORK!!!! Yeee-Hawwwww! (there's another one for ya, bulldog!).
> 
> See y'all later!


Awesome to see some good news, good luck to you Brother, I look forward to your future post though so make the extra effort to not allow work to get in the way of your post.LOL


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

boulengerina said:


> The company does not have to be publicly traded... and of course, you have the option of creating your own 401k through an investment firm, but the company does not have to match it. The companies that "self invest" with their employees' 401k usually use the "comapny match" as a lure.
> 
> This issue may not be common in other places, but it is fairly common here. Many of the larger non-Union shops participate in this dubious activity, to the detriment of their employees. I could list several, but won't, AS I GOT A CALL AND MUST GO TO WORK!!!! Yeee-Hawwwww! (there's another one for ya, bulldog!).
> 
> See y'all later!


 Could you send me a pm with the list of the non union shops that do that around here?


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Could you send me a pm with the list of the non union shops that do that around here?


Yes that would be great, to know who is "screwing" the employees, public knowledge is a good thing, especially today where when they are called out they have to change, normally--I should say... :thumbsup:

I know around here the poor apprentices working in the ABC are pretty much "labeled" all the non union shops that belong to the ABC--basically fix the rates for apprentices, so quitting one contractor and going to the next--when not treated well---is not something they can do. I like to call them the non-union- "Union"...


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> Yes that would be great, to know who is "screwing" the employees, public knowledge is a good thing, especially today where when they are called out they have to change, normally--I should say... :thumbsup:
> 
> I know around here the poor apprentices working in the ABC are pretty much "labeled" all the non union shops that belong to the ABC--basically fix the rates for apprentices, so quitting one contractor and going to the next--when not treated well---is not something they can do. I like to call them the non-union- "Union"...


Yea, The apprentices where I used to work just got treated like crap. They signed contracts to get little $.50 raises every time they completed a semester and the company told them they are not going to get them, and the raises were the perk for signing up for the program. The bad thing how they treat the apprentices at that company doesn't surprise me at all. The worst company I have every worked for.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Yea, The apprentices where I used to work just got treated like crap. They signed contracts to get little $.50 raises every time they completed a semester and the company told them they are not going to get them, and the raises were the perk for signing up for the program. The bad thing how they treat the apprentices at that company doesn't surprise me at all. The worst company I have every worked for.


Well, in PA apprentices in the ABC program (state certified) must get a $.50 raise every 6 months until they turn JW---the contractors have no way of getting around that. But, they are treated like trash. I know I was when I went through--but at least I could quit and get another contractor, where today they are so "organized" that an application would mean the old boss knows the new boss---  Kind of like trading slaves--today!


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> Well, in PA apprentices in the ABC program (state certified) must get a $.50 raise every 6 months until they turn JW---the contractors have no way of getting around that. But, they are treated like trash. I know I was when I went through--but at least I could quit and get another contractor, where today they are so "organized" that an application would mean the old boss knows the new boss---  Kind of like trading slaves--today!


 I think it is that way down here also, but the POS company that I used to work for will break it off in there employees in a heart beat.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

william1978 said:


> I think it is that way down here also, but the POS company that I used to work for will break it off in there employees in a heart beat.



You know I never in my 20 plus years could understand WHY--exactly a contractor would screw their employees--and then expect them to be "good" and profitable for the company? As I became a Foreman/Super/ Project Manager---I made sure everyone was treated with respect and honesty---and the guys that tried back-stabbing their co-workers--were told by me--sorry no brownie points--be a man!


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> You know I never in my 20 plus years could understand WHY--exactly a contractor would screw their employees--and then expect them to be "good" and profitable for the company? As I became a Foreman/Super/ Project Manager---I made sure everyone was treated with respect and honesty---and the guys that tried back-stabbing their co-workers--were told by me--sorry no brownie points--be a man!


 Yea, I worked for one Union contractor when I was in the Union and it was the best company that I have every worked for.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Yea, I worked for one Union contractor when I was in the Union and it was the best company that I have every worked for.



Yes they actually know--dont mess with employees and you get great results---just do what is agreed upon--of course you always have the "exception" but they get sent back to the bench fairly quickly--


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Well, in PA apprentices in the ABC program (state certified) must get a $.50 raise every 6 months until they turn JW---the contractors have no way of getting around that. But, they are treated like trash. I know I was when I went through--but at least I could quit and get another contractor, where today they are so "organized" that an application would mean the old boss knows the new boss---  Kind of like trading slaves--today!


Oh no! Say it isn't so! I thought this type of thing never happened :laughing:....

All this time I thought I was imagining things.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Oh no! Say it isn't so! I thought this type of thing never happened :laughing:....
> 
> All this time I thought I was imagining things.


I have no idea, I have never been involved with an 'ABC" and neither is anyone I know.

Again no one is being forced to work for anyone.:no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Again no one is being forced to work for anyone.:no:


 I agree 100%. If someone isn't happy leave.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Well, in PA apprentices in the ABC program (state certified) must get a $.50 raise every 6 months until they turn JW---the contractors have no way of getting around that. But, they are treated like trash. I know I was when I went through--but at least I could quit and get another contractor, where today they are so "organized" that an application would mean the old boss knows the new boss---  * Kind of like trading slaves--today!*


That is such a line of crap.:laughing::laughing:

I have yet to see anyone dragged to a merit shops door in chains and given no other choice but to walk in the door and take whatever is offered to them.

No one is born with a promise they can make a living doing the work they _want_ to do. They certainly have a right to try but if they want to be an electrician in a market that has to many electricians they are not going to do well.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I have no idea, I have never been involved with an 'ABC" and neither is anyone I know.
> 
> Again no one is being forced to work for anyone.:no:


Who said forced to work---its a fact the ABC--for lectricians is the way to a journeyman license in PA.... The non-union contractors are just about all ABC--affiliated---they control your apprenticeship---


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> That is such a line of crap.:laughing::laughing:
> 
> ===no its reality
> 
> ...


:whistling2::whistling2:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Last week I got a call from two Brothers out of local #756 Daytona Beach Florida, telling me that their unemployment was nearing an end and they had no work in sight. I made a few calls, found out a Brother that I had traveled with had an RV he was trying to sell cheap needless to say they drove across country and now I have new neighbors with a better out look for the future and a secure place to live.With times as tough as they are it is good to see human compassion is alive.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Last week I got a call from two Brothers out of local #756 Daytona Beach Florida, telling me that their unemployment was nearing an end and they had no work in sight. I made a few calls, found out a Brother that I had traveled with had an RV he was trying to sell cheap needless to say they drove across country and now I have new neighbors with a better out look for the future and a secure place to live.With times as tough as they are it is good to see human compassion is alive.


OK, but this could happen in any case, "brothers" or not. 
Everybody has friends.

It is also only applicable if you are willing to uproot yourself and move across the country. 
To California no less. NO thank you!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> :whistling2::whistling2:


I am just going to ignore you unless you learn to quote, not worth my time trying to dissect your interlaced posts.:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> OK, but this could happen in any case, "brothers" or not.
> Everybody has friends.
> 
> It is also only applicable if you are willing to uproot yourself and move across the country.
> To California no less. NO thank you!


 How many times have I asked for post from anyone in regards to another human helping man kind, it makes no difference to me if you are union or not, just the thought of being kind and positive. Instead of a negative slant, why not express how someone has had a positive affect on you or those you know? This event was something that I was part of but I know of others who did not travel to California no less.We are all in a similar line of work and I agree we all have friends but I disagree that it is only applicable if you are willing to uproot yourself and move across the country, it could be just across town or down the street, (that is the post I look forward to from others) I am curious to what motivates you to make such a post though.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> How many times have I asked for post from anyone in regards to another human helping man kind, it makes no difference to me if you are union or not, just the thought of being kind and positive. Instead of a negative slant, why not express how someone has had a positive affect on you or those you know? This event was something that I was part of but I know of others who did not travel to California no less.We are all in a similar line of work and I agree we all have friends but I disagree that it is only applicable if you are willing to uproot yourself and move across the country, it could be just across town or down the street, (that is the post I look forward to from others) I am curious to what motivates you to make such a post though.


Being from both sides of the fence--non-union and Union--I have personally witnessed more brotherly love on the UNION side--- Non union I actually made more friends--but its all in relation to all things--


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> How many times have I asked for post from anyone in regards to another human helping man kind, it makes no difference to me if you are union or not, just the thought of being kind and positive.


On school jobs I like to give away free extras. Its not like the school districts are rolling in cash, I mean, teachers don't make sh1t for money.

P.S. Respond however you like about teachers, but my aunt and uncle are teachers, and they are without a doubt underpaid for what they do. I was surprised to know how much more I make than a teacher, like more than double.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> On school jobs I like to give away free extras. Its not like the school districts are rolling in cash, I mean, teachers don't make sh1t for money.
> 
> P.S. Respond however you like about teachers, but my aunt and uncle are teachers, and they are without a doubt underpaid for what they do. I was surprised to know how much more I make than a teacher, like more than double.


LOL---in PA you are looking at $100 K a year PLUS tenure--- built plenty of schools that had better science labs than the colleges in the area--artificial turf at the "stadium" for soccer and football... Not bad $100K for 9 months minus all the vacation and holiday included... Plus the summers off--

:jester::jester:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> in PA you are looking at $100 K a year PLUS tenure


If they weren't retired already, I'd talk them into moving!


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> If they weren't retired already, I'd talk them into moving!


Couldnt pay me enough to babysit todays youth--- :no:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I just got in from a 3 day book signing tour, it was awesome to see some of the Brothers and Sisters I have not seen in years.Sister Karen who I worked with in Washington helped us with the ins and out of her referral system and the upcoming work in their area(good to see all the work that they have on the agenda) Brother Russ helped us out in the Bay area of California(37 floor highrise starting any day now in LU#6 and work in LU#180, #595) In Southern California LU#'s 440,47,477,18,and 40 looks good for several thousand in the near future.We signed LU 112 book Friday morning, they only had 5 calls but only 7 of us showed for callout, with all the calls coming up there I had better repack my bags today.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> I just got in from a 3 day book signing tour.




 Does this mean you signed books in multiple locals???


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

I still want to know why the Houston Teamsters chose not to use the IBEW to wire their Hall, does anyone know?

I thought all unions used other unions in contracts.

Is it because they got a better quality job from a merrit shop at a reasonable price?

I'm just asking a simple question.


Roger


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Roger said:


> I still want to know why the Houston Teamsters chose not to use the IBEW to wire their Hall, does anyone know?
> 
> I thought all unions used other unions in contracts.
> 
> ...



I don't know the exact answer as I am not from Texas. But I do know that the Teamsters and the IBEW have had a tumultuous relationship in the past.

I know locally in the past we have had issues with teamsters trying to do electrical work. There a lot like carpenters. They think ALL the work belongs to them and everyone else is in the way.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I don't know the exact answer as I am not from Texas. But I do know that the Teamsters and the IBEW have had a tumultuous relationship in the past.
> 
> I know locally in the past we have had issues with teamsters trying to do electrical work. There a lot like carpenters. They think ALL the work belongs to them and everyone else is in the way.


Hmmmmm, where's the alliance? Here we think brotherhoods will honor other brothrhoods and we are blind sided with reality, the world sucks huhhh?

With unions such as the Teamsters openly using Meritt shops something is wrong with our IBEW's image 

It appears to me that Merrit shops will win in the long run much to the dismay of organized brotherhoods.

JMHO

Roger


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Roger said:


> Hmmmmm, where's the alliance? Here we think brotherhoods will honor other brothrhoods and we are blind sided with reality, the world sucks huhhh?
> 
> With unions such as the Teamsters openly using Meritt shops something is wrong with our IBEW's image
> 
> ...


Are you a union member? The problem is that people seem to lump all unions together. Each organization is different then the next. Who knows why the teamsters used a non union contractor. I doubt price had anything to do about it. Probably there is a poor relationship between the two.

To say that our image is damaged because the teamsters didn't utilize our services is almost laughable, the teamsters are one of the most corrupt unions in history with there own image problems to deal with.

I'll use the carpenters as an example yet again. Locally there the only trade not affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Because they do not honor working agreements between other trades, expect you to honor there picket line but will walk right across yours. And constantly do work that is historically done by other trades. Even in St. Louis the Carpenters are trying to organize electricians!

I guess my point is this, we (IBEW) have are fair share of problems right now. The least of which is how other so-called "unions" view us. The teamsters using non union labor doesn't surprise me at all.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Roger said:


> Hmmmmm, where's the alliance? Here we think brotherhoods will honor other brothrhoods and we are blind sided with reality, the world sucks huhhh?
> 
> With unions such as the Teamsters openly using Meritt shops something is wrong with our IBEW's image
> 
> ...


 What local did you say you were out of? For you to post a question as you did and then after made an honest effort to answer your goofy question you post derogortory words, this does not sound like a Brother to me.Are we to believe you are our lying eyes?
I did sign several books, slickvic why you know something I am unaware of?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> What local did you say you were out of? For you to post a question as you did and then after made an honest effort to answer your goofy question you post derogortory words, this does not sound like a Brother to me.Are we to believe you are our lying eyes?
> I did sign several books, slickvic why you know something I am unaware of?



I'm not to familiar with traveling and the laws of such but I was always under the impression that signing multiple books at one time was in poor taste.
No disrespect intended, just correct me if I am wrong.

I always thought of this to be double booking. Or is it acceptable as long as you remove your name from the other books once you get a job?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> What local did you say you were out of?


I didn't.

Roger


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Slickvic, thanks for your reply.

Roger


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> To say that our image is damaged because the teamsters didn't utilize our services is almost laughable,


From an insiders view I bet you are right, from the outside things look differently.

From an outsiders perspective it seems a major slap in the face to the IBEW if another union group will not use the IBEW to build their building.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> From an insiders view I bet you are right, from the outside things look differently.
> 
> From an outsiders perspective it seems a major slap in the face to the IBEW if another union group will not use the IBEW to build their building.



Good point. :thumbsup: But were talking about the teamsters and the teamsters in texas no less. Not exactly the best match for union solidarity.

( no offense to the GOOD union men and women of Texas)


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Does this mean you signed books in multiple locals???



You can sign books in every local---its just when you get a call you are supposed to take your name off the rest of the books you are on----That way you are not taking away a spot on multiple books while working.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Good point. :thumbsup: But were talking about the teamsters and the teamsters in texas no less. Not exactly the best match for union solidarity.
> 
> ( no offense to the GOOD union men and women of Texas)


They are just like all others--lowest bid wins--- Not to say I agree--with using a non for a Union hall--thats almost funny- Us Yankess up North would never allow such craziness----

Always had trouble with the Teamsters in most states--they believe in themselves only--thats why their pay scale has remained so low for so long :thumbup:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm not to familiar with traveling and the laws of such but I was always under the impression that signing multiple books at one time was in poor taste.
> No disrespect intended, just correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> I always thought of this to be double booking. Or is it acceptable as long as you remove your name from the other books once you get a job?


 Double booking is when you keep your name on another book while you are working. Years ago I spoke with JJ Barry in regards to having a credit card to be able to put your name on all the books from any local and as soon as you took a call it would automatically take your name off (as long as your dues were paid up and you are a member in good standing) As far as bad taste of signing multiple books(first time in all my years to have heard that) maybe if you try to sign book 1 in anothers local (that will cause friction) 
I call around or go on line to find where the work may be, go sign those books, call the recordings every night waiting for a call, then take whatever call then take my name off all other books.When the job is over I repeat the process.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

Do you stay on your home local's books? There's a bit of confusion about that one. But how are you supposed to get home if you don't. Our BM allows and says it's not double booking


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

RUSSIAN said:


> Do you stay on your home local's books? There's a bit of confusion about that one. But how are you supposed to get home if you don't. Our BM allows and says it's not double booking


Yes keeping name at home local--while signing other books is always OK---
After all who wants to travel and not even be on your home book---trying to get back-

I wrote the IBEW Journal many times in the past years bitching about people that have to travel 100,000s of miles over the years to have a job--stating that we are in the 21st. century time to be able to sign on-line---I know I didnt do it myself--but it seems the powers that be finally--WOKE up-- 

Oh--I did put in there---how can I "organize" someone by "bragging" that they can work anywhere but have to drive there to sign a book and then wait by the phone and maybe you will get a call---if not drive back again next month and do it all over again... :jester:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> From an insiders view I bet you are right, from the outside things look differently.
> 
> From an outsiders perspective it seems a major slap in the face to the IBEW if another union group will not use the IBEW to build their building.


We have plenty of non-shops that use Union labor--all the time-- :thumbsup:
Lowest bidder wins--"most" of the time--:whistling2:

Teamsters are a much different Union than the trade unions---in many many ways---Alot of people dont understand how "many" unions are actually out there today and how many would not support the other for many reasons---Most Municipal unions wont even support the local trade unions in their area... Its not like the old days---
And its a huge fact that where UNIONS are weak and small--so are the wage rates in that entire area---from ground up--- So--we can say---foot--gun---shoot---


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

bulldog1770 said:


> Lowest bidder wins--"most" of the time--:whistling2:


I am all for target funds and PLA's. We got the clout, we got the right to use it, just like the Chamber of Commerce uses their clout against us.

Sadly, the non-union electricians whose wages we bring upward, stand firmly against the IBEW and what is done to rise the tide and lift all boats.

Thousands of years of accumulated knowledge in the world's second oldest profession didn't teach us to give away our skills for just more than minimum wage because, 'its the right thing to do.' Why are professional non-union career electricians satisfied with making less than what they are worth?? Or are they drowning in their lack of self-worth?


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> I am all for target funds and PLA's. We got the clout, we got the right to use it, just like the Chamber of Commerce uses their clout against us.
> 
> Sadly, the non-union electricians whose wages we bring upward, stand firmly against the IBEW and what is done to rise the tide and lift all boats.
> 
> Thousands of years of accumulated knowledge in the world's second oldest profession didn't teach us to give away our skills for just more than minimum wage because, 'its the right thing to do.' Why are professional non-union career electricians satisfied with making less than what they are worth?? Or are they drowning in their lack of self-worth?


Well again--since I was on both sides----I can tell you---NON union electricians DONT make alot less---Thanks to Davis Bacon Act- I made more non union than I did in the UNION... Self-worth---doesn't equal a paycheck--alot of people would see Unemployment as taken welfare--and sitting at home as being LAZY and letting someone else be in charge of your income--- A true professional--takes their own way makes their own standards--I have not driven a "personal" vehicle to work in 10 years--always have a company car--- No PRO gives their work away nor works for peanuts--I loved the UNION---but--wont do my family the "injustice" of traveling and not seeing them---:thumbsup:


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

OK, I have another question, do any IBEW members here drive a foreign car or truck assembled by non UAW members?

If so, what is your reason for doing so?

I saw a KIA (which I think is a very good vehicle) a few weeks ago with two IBEW stickers on it and it made me wonder.

Roger


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Roger said:


> OK, I have another question, do any IBEW members here drive a foreign car or truck assembled by non UAW members?
> 
> If so, what is your reason for doing so?
> 
> ...


Thats like going into a UAW member's house and saying hey is that a 60" TV UNION made and BTW__WHO built and wired your house---bet it wasn't a UNION contractor--or a UNION made TV--:laughing:


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

And your point is? ....


Roger


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> You can sign books in every local---its just when you get a call you are supposed to take your name off the rest of the books you are on----That way you are not taking away a spot on multiple books while working.





Brother Noah said:


> Double booking is when you keep your name on another book while you are working. Years ago I spoke with JJ Barry in regards to having a credit card to be able to put your name on all the books from any local and as soon as you took a call it would automatically take your name off (as long as your dues were paid up and you are a member in good standing) As far as bad taste of signing multiple books(first time in all my years to have heard that) maybe if you try to sign book 1 in anothers local (that will cause friction)
> I call around or go on line to find where the work may be, go sign those books, call the recordings every night waiting for a call, then take whatever call then take my name off all other books.When the job is over I repeat the process.




That's what I thought. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Roger said:


> I saw a KIA (which I think is a very good vehicle) a few weeks ago with two IBEW stickers on it and it made me wonder.


I saw on TV that Kia's are being made here, in the South somewhere...

It hurts me, being a Ford man, knowing that more of the Kia is made in the US, than an F150 which mostly originates out of Mexico, now correct me if I am wrong.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Kia's are being made along the GA/AL border just off I 85, near West Point GA.
It was made known when they started interwing, the they would not interview any UAW members that had lost their jobs from Ford and GM closing up shop in Atlanta.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Who's your brother noah..? your name makes you sound a bit like a Klan member.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Roger said:


> And your point is? ....
> 
> 
> Roger


point being---they dont pay for 100% UNION built either---:no:
In the early days when buying American was easy---most did it--now a days--most everything is imported---

We call it the race to the bottom--America is getting there fast---take away the middle class and look at what is left...


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

jbfan said:


> Kia's are being made along the GA/AL border just off I 85, near West Point GA.
> It was made known when they started interwing, the they would not interview any UAW members that had lost their jobs from Ford and GM closing up shop in Atlanta.


Sounds like that would be illegal? 
Not hiring someone "JUST" because they belong to an affiliation is illegal===


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Obvious!


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## Racinjason (Apr 20, 2010)

*IBEW L.u.212 Member new Facebook Group*

I just started a group on facebook, check it out.. Its not so much union/anti-union as it is about Buying American..and helping the economy.
Drop By and check it out, feel free to join. http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/group.php?gid=113584571997188


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Racinjason said:


> I just started a group on facebook, check it out.. Its not so much union/anti-union as it is about Buying American..and helping the economy.
> Drop By and check it out, feel free to join. http://www.facebook.com/?sk=2361831622#!/group.php?gid=113584571997188


 
Thank you for your post, our gross national product has got ot be the lowest in our history and many do not understand how important it is how we help our self by making an effort to buy made in the USA products.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Thank you for your post, our gross national product has got ot be the lowest in our history and many do not understand how important it is how we help our self by making an effort to buy made in the USA products.



I think the real answer is---To start researching all foreign companies that are USA---owned---put them all on a web-site and make it popular---Show stats--show video of KIDS making products in bad conditions--show what it takes to produce and what they sell it for back here---

I think the BUY USA--has shown to be a loser for about 30 years now--it doesnt work--kids today--watch Jap cartoons, have Jap toys, play Jap video games--then when 16 tell them they cant BUY a jap car>??? Wont work..
Jap = (to include Chinese etc)--not presented in a derogatory way-- :no:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

bulldog1770 said:


> I think the real answer is---To start researching all foreign companies that are USA---owned---put them all on a web-site and make it popular---Show stats--show video of KIDS making products in bad conditions--show what it takes to produce and what they sell it for back here---
> 
> I think the BUY USA--has shown to be a loser for about 30 years now--it doesnt work--kids today--watch Jap cartoons, have Jap toys, play Jap video games--then when 16 tell them they cant BUY a jap car>??? Wont work..
> Jap = (to include Chinese etc)--not presented in a derogatory way-- :no:


I agree with parts of your post. I am not as concerned about who owns the company as I am who makes the money working where. Most corporations are owned by many(no matter what country they are from) but if we want to see the work done by Americans we must supply a demand for American made products. The other part, I have always tried to lead by example to my kids even though under garments and now jeans are hard to find made in the USA, there are some available. My kids also know after I lived and worked in the Detroit are for 2 years my stance on buying American made autos. It can be a pain looking through all the tags in the clothes you buy and more expensive to get that made in America auto but I know I do my part to help create that demand so more Americans work and can afford to survive in the good old USA.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> I agree with parts of your post. I am not as concerned about who owns the company as I am who makes the money working where. Most corporations are owned by many(no matter what country they are from) but if we want to see the work done by Americans we must supply a demand for American made products. The other part, I have always tried to lead by example to my kids even though under garments and now jeans are hard to find made in the USA, there are some available. My kids also know after I lived and worked in the Detroit are for 2 years my stance on buying American made autos. It can be a pain looking through all the tags in the clothes you buy and more expensive to get that made in America auto but I know I do my part to help create that demand so more Americans work and can afford to survive in the good old USA.


Who owns the Company has alot to do with how much $$$$ gets put back on American soil; hence creates jobs for Americans---A Chinese owned company wont take their profit and invest in American jobs--it will take its money back to China---yes teaching kids is a first step--but look at percentages--what is UNION today maybe 5-8% of the workforce--so 92% probably wont teach their kids--about the importance of buying American--well unless you show them PROOF of how foreign labor is used and how it affects us..:thumbsup:

Its been going on for over 30 years and still no one took the ball--and ran with it, as far as--showing America what it costs and how everything that was fought for on American soil (benes wages workers rights) has any place in a sweat shop.. Seems to me the UNION would be an expert on this type of information---you should bring it up at a UNION meeting--bet they wont put a DIME towards it... Nor follow through... The UNION upper echelon is way too protected, in my opinion---they answer to no one..


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

You all are living in a dream world if you even remotely think things will every be again what they where.

It sucks but this is not the world our Dads grew up in, the rules have changed and our standard of living is going to continue to go down as the rest of the worlds catches up. Our lock on first place is done.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> You all are living in a dream world if you even remotely think things will every be again what they where.
> 
> It sucks but this is not the world our Dads grew up in, the rules have changed and our standard of living is going to continue to go down as the rest of the worlds catches up. Our lock on first place is done.


I hope not---I have 5 times what my dad and grandpop had--in their whole lifetime-----

1st. place is here to stay--compare middle class with us and any other country--- we are far far above---:blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> I hope not---I have 5 times what my dad and grandpop had--in their whole lifetime-----


I would consider you lucky.



> 1st. place is here to stay--compare middle class with us and any other country--- we are far far above---:blink:


No first is not here to stay unless we bomb all the other countries back to where they where in the 50s and 60s. We are no longer the only country that can make what the world needs. Look at Caterpillar, they used to supply the world with heavy equipment, no more, they can barely hold onto the US market.

Don't get me wrong, I love the US and wish things where different but IMO our standard of living is only going to be heading down for the foreseeable future.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I would consider you lucky.
> 
> --or just giving better opportunities with better pay---that my parents and grandparents fought for and WON... Today the CEO--has won the foothold they have always wanted by blaming UNIONS and middle class benes and wages for their trek overseas---while not lowering their prices to Americans--and making record profits---hey all for profits---and business competition--just not the whole sweat shop--way of getting there--
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

There is not a thing the unions or the government or we as individuals can do to stop what is going on.

Other countries can now do what we used to do for less and if you think that raising our wages here will fix things then you really must think there is a pot of gold somewhere to pull the money from.


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## Stub (Apr 19, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> There is not a thing the unions or the government or we as individuals can do to stop what is going on.
> 
> Other countries can now do what we used to do for less and if you think that raising our wages here will fix things then you really must think there is a pot of gold somewhere to pull the money from.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LOL 

Change we can believe in. :jester:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Hey Bob,

Only change we really need is that all the clowns who supported obama, get serious in NOvember (buyer's remorse for those who were ignorant enough to buy his kool-aid), and *change* out the Congress, and Senate! He doesn't help the union rank and file, nor the open shop. SOB is the world's apologist for a great country. It's not his skin color, it's the color of his politics!


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> There is not a thing the unions or the government or we as individuals can do to stop what is going on.
> 
> ---Every generation should have its OWN revolution---if our forefathers had your thought process will would really be in trouble---and would have never had the TECH Boom--- Change is irrelevant and constant--- Other countries still think a kitchen is a luxury---and more than ONE bathroom in a "luxury" apartment is incredible to them---you say they are right at our heels? Maybe another 20 yrs. of us staying still you might be right--
> 
> ...


Who said raising wages would fix anything---?? if you look at things "again" you will see the "rich" have never been so wealthy--in all of history-- Other countries can do what we can--and yes cheaper---but they dont have the resources that we have... FORD is the best selling vehicle right now in Europe--the Chinese LOVE GM---- Their middle class wages and benes--are not even close to American standards--Chinese are still light years behind--they are just trading in their mopeds and bikes for cars---they still dont have retirement funds, houses etc---:thumbsup:


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> LOL
> 
> Change *we can believe in*. :jester:


I believe in it, I believe it's happening right now if we like it or not. But what I believe about it isn't what the lybrials and Mao Tse Tung loving democrats are tying to brain wash us into believing. It's a sad state of affairs.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Unless we can put someone in office with magical powers I see no reason to believe they can reverse what is happening.

The things that are changing are changing outside our boarders and we can't do a damn thing about it.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> Hey Bob,
> 
> Only change we really need is that all the clowns who supported obama, get serious in NOvember (buyer's remorse for those who were ignorant enough to buy his kool-aid), and *change* out the Congress, and Senate! He doesn't help the union rank and file, nor the open shop. SOB is the world's apologist for a great country. It's not his skin color, it's the color of his politics!


Where were all these "change lovers" under Bush? Where was the great tea party--when they found no WMD???? Bama signed the right to bear arms at the national park where they were protesting---DAH!!!!!
Where were all these great repubs--when the mortgage crisis was going on..?? Funny their silence is deafening! 95% of the tea baggers party received tax cuts--yet they blame Bama for everything.. 8 years of spend spend spend and going to war on 2 fronts---and its all Bama's fault---Where did the SURPLUS GO-- Bush inherited when he got into office? Look at what Bama was handed---Bush handed the first Bail-out check--not Bama---- Seems these sleeping repubs needed to wake up under the Bush years---now they see what their hero--left the country---DEBT DEBT and aghhh More debt!!! :no::no:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> I believe in it, I believe it's happening right now if we like it or not. But what I believe about it isn't what the lybrials and Mao Tse Tung loving democrats are tying to brain wash us into believing. It's a sad state of affairs.


I thought brainwashing was under BUSH--

With us or against us
I promise I will prove to the world Saduum has WMD
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
I will never rest until I find OBL
Katrina was a success
9-11 was Clinton's fault
OUTSOURCING IS GOOD FOR AMERICA--- BUSH QUOTE--
Mobile chemical weapons--we see them---umm sorry they were work trailers---oops----

:laughing:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Unless we can put someone in office with magical powers I see no reason to believe they can reverse what is happening.
> 
> The things that are changing are changing outside our boarders and we can't do a damn thing about it.


Its not up to the President to create jobs---its up to American workers to outperform the rest--which we still do today--its up to us to create better companies and corporations and when they make it--stop them from going overseas---its not impossible in any way shape or form... :thumbsup:


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Where were all these "change lovers" under Bush? Where was the great tea party--when they found no WMD???? Bama signed the right to bear arms at the national park where they were protesting---DAH!!!!!
> Where were all these great repubs--when the mortgage crisis was going on..?? Funny their silence is deafening! 95% of the tea baggers party received tax cuts--yet they blame Bama for everything.. 8 years of spend spend spend and going to war on 2 fronts---and its all Bama's fault---Where did the SURPLUS GO-- Bush inherited when he got into office? Look at what Bama was handed---Bush handed the first Bail-out check--not Bama---- Seems these sleeping repubs needed to wake up under the Bush years---now they see what their hero--left the country---DEBT DEBT and aghhh More debt!!! :no::no:


 So I guess you agree with everything Obama has done so far? You like the people he has surrounded himself with? You like how he is making us look to the rest of the world, apologizing for everything we do? How about the crazy rules of engagement over in the middle east that are getting our people killed? Or the fact that he delayed funding the troops, or even showing that he gave a rats a** about them. Or his soft ways of dealing with terrorist scum that threaten our very way of life & would slit our children’s throat with no remorse. He won't even use words associated with terrorists. I think you watch too much CNN. His approval rating is headed to the 30's as it should. He'll never see a second term, not in the 30% range.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> I thought brainwashing was under BUSH--
> 
> With us or against us
> I promise I will prove to the world Saduum has *WMD*
> ...


If you read history then you would know that WE sold them the WMD to fight against Iran. They did have the WMD, they just buried them or shipped them out of the country.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> So I guess you agree with everything Obama has done so far?
> 
> --Funny never said that--right away you repubs try and put everyone in a box--I must be a DEM or a LIBERAL---- Sorry Joe--I am neither Do I agree with everything anyone has ever done--NOPE---that would be brainwashing--and ignorant... And very BUSH LIKE----
> 
> ...


Again--where were you great American REPUBS with all the BUSH spending? QUIET??? How about the mortgage bubble--QUIET?? HOW about NO WMD FOUND?? Quiet??? PS---I did my 4 yrs US ARMY Airborne Infantry.. FT Benning GA. As an American I am ashamed of the REPUBLICAN PARTY--I used to be one when they were actually conservative and not so darn radical--the with us or against us--mentality--lost them the White House---


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> If you read history then you would know that WE sold them the WMD to fight against Iran. They did have the WMD, they just buried them or shipped them out of the country.


Yes--and their shelf life was gone--they were no more harmful than your household cleaners---YES BUSH Sr. and REAGAN sold many to Saduum---

Yeah they shipped them to other countries with all our Satellites watching?? And with millions being spent to find them??? Another repub BS story====
Bottom line--Saduum is dead and many would benefit from us finding them---today NONE are found---All the Saduum haters would have shown us where they were buried or shipped too... The evil leader was found in a hole---what a threat he was---:thumbsup:


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Who said I was a "REPUB"..... Did I say Bush was my hero.. wait, let me go check..... yes, his picture is still under my pillow. whew thought I lost it there...

I think you are about to pop a vain bulldog, calm yourself. This is why political posting is banned on this site, people have strong opinions that don't sync up with others. I think what I think about Obama and his czars, you blame everything on my good buddy "Bush jr", let just leave it at that and call it a day.

Truthfully there is only one type of "bush" I would consider worshiping and it isn't a grey haired ex president.

(/End waste of time pursuing a thread derailed into the political abyss)


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> Who said I was a "REPUB"..... Did I say Bush was my hero.. wait, let me go check..... yes, his picture is still under my pillow. whew thought I lost it there...
> 
> I think you are about to pop a vain bulldog, calm yourself. This is why political posting is banned on this site, people have strong opinions that don't sync up with others. I think what I think about Obama and his czars, you blame everything on my good buddy "Bush jr", let just leave it at that and call it a day.
> 
> ...


Sorry figured Texas = Repub and Bush lover--- :laughing::laughing:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Grimlock said:


> So I guess you agree with everything Obama has done so far? You like the people he has surrounded himself with? You like how he is making us look to the rest of the world, apologizing for everything we do? How about the crazy rules of engagement over in the middle east that are getting our people killed? Or the fact that he delayed funding the troops, or even showing that he gave a rats a** about them. Or his soft ways of dealing with terrorist scum that threaten our very way of life & would slit our children’s throat with no remorse. He won't even use words associated with terrorists. I think you watch too much CNN. His approval rating is headed to the 30's as it should. He'll never see a second term, not in the 30% range.


 *Supplemental request for war-related expenses*

Cost: *$33,014,000,000**

President Obama requested $33 billion in FY2010 supplemental funding for the missions in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. Most of the additional funds will go to U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Obama has ordered a surge of an additional 30,000 troops to Afghanistan, which will bring the total number of U.S. forces in Afghanistan to almost 100,000 by 2011. Congress has already provided almost $139 billion for FY2010 overseas contingency operations. If approved, the supplemental funds would make the FY2010 funding level greater than the FY2009 funding level. Obama has a 49% approval rating as of today 4/20/2010--- :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Its not up to the President to create jobs---its up to American workers to outperform the rest--*which we still do today*--


Bullchit, we are as a group lazy compared to the many countries that are now 'coming of age'. 



> its up to us to create better companies and corporations and when they make it--stop them from going overseas--


So it's is great and free country unless you are a company and then we will tell you what to do. I thought you just said it was not up to the govt so who is going to stop these companies from doing what is best for the company?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Grimlock said:


> Did I say Bush was my hero.. wait, let me go check..... yes, his picture is still under my pillow. whew thought I lost it there...


:thumbup:

LOL


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## Racinjason (Apr 20, 2010)

hey Bob Badger,I agree this country is never gonna be what it was in the 50s and 60s, However it can be a lot better than it is now. Its not that other countries can do what we do for less.. its the fact that "other countries" governments do not allow unions. Therefore theres no one fighting for fair labor practices, sweatshops don't happen here in the US because our forefathers took a stand organized and fought for what is fair.
Until the majority of this country ceases buying foreign made products things wont change.
Next time you buy a Hyundai or Nissan.. think about the effects it will have on your children and their children.. they may be the kids sewing "nikes" in a sweatshop right here in the good ole USA, but as long as you get the best price on them..its ok right?

Try sacrificing a few dollars now for a future for your children.. just like your ancestors did.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Bullchit, we are as a group lazy compared to the many countries that are now 'coming of age'.
> 
> ====its called working smarter not harder.. Lazy--is that slang for not working 16hr days 7 days a week while being 13 years old in a sweat shop..??? Yeah lets LOWER what this country fought for for generations..So that we can not be called LAZY--by someone living in a straw shack... :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Didn't say tell them what to do I said find ways to make hiring American labor more advantageous... Whats best for the company is profits--but profits at all costs--seem to backfire---when you cant sell to the Middle class---what good is your product and who will BUY it---in great quantities? Or we can just do it the Badger way and say--hey we suk--lets give up--- :notworthy:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Racinjason said:


> hey Bob Badger,I agree this country is never gonna be what it was in the 50s and 60s, However it can be a lot better than it is now. Its not that other countries can do what we do for less.. its the fact that "other countries" governments do not allow unions. Therefore theres no one fighting for fair labor practices, sweatshops don't happen here in the US because our forefathers took a stand organized and fought for what is fair.
> Until the majority of this country ceases buying foreign made products things wont change.
> Next time you buy a Hyundai or Nissan.. think about the effects it will have on your children and their children.. they may be the kids sewing "nikes" in a sweatshop right here in the good ole USA, but as long as you get the best price on them..its ok right?
> 
> Try sacrificing a few dollars now for a future for your children.. just like your ancestors did.


Not sure I would want the 60's --Vietnam---chaos--hate--racism--unemployment high---big drug revolution--presidential assassination-Almost a NUKE war--- NO OSHA--unfair working conditions--


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

bulldog1770 said:


> Where were all these "change lovers" under Bush? Where was the great tea party--when they found no WMD???? Bama signed the right to bear arms at the national park where they were protesting---DAH!!!!!
> Where were all these great repubs--when the mortgage crisis was going on..?? Funny their silence is deafening! 95% of the tea baggers party received tax cuts--yet they blame Bama for everything.. 8 years of spend spend spend and going to war on 2 fronts---and its all Bama's fault---Where did the SURPLUS GO-- Bush inherited when he got into office? Look at what Bama was handed---Bush handed the first Bail-out check--not Bama---- Seems these sleeping repubs needed to wake up under the Bush years---now they see what their hero--left the country---DEBT DEBT and aghhh More debt!!!


_Where were all these "change lovers" under Bush? _

At work. One in four is out of work now. Maybe you should consider that the difference between the democrats and the republicans isn’t much. A lot of them (not all), are paid ho’s that don’t represent anyone but their pocketbooks.

_Where was the great [FONT=inherit!important]teahttp://www.electriciantalk.com/ party--when they found no WMD????[/FONT]_

Were you born under a rock? The tea party movement only started February 27th 2009. Stick with the issues. Tea party is about *T*axed *E*nough *A*lready. To be precise, it’s a movement, not a party. So can your hyperbole of WMD’s, being related at all.

_Bama signed the right to bear arms at the national park where they were protesting---DAH!!!!!_

The law reverses a 94-year-old ban on carrying loaded or assembled guns into most national parks that do not allow hunting. The change was written into the credit card reform law that also went into effect on Monday. Sen*. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., added the provision as an amendment to the act, which was passed by Congress in May.*

The second amendment was misconstrued for years – by those who failed to read what the Framer's intended, which was -

*Amendment 2** - Right to Bear Arms. **Ratified** 12/15/1791*
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

All the law did was bring intent back into clarity.


The Constitution is our most fundamental law. It is, in its own words, “the supreme Law of the Land.” Its translation into the legal rules under which we live occurs through the actions of all government entities, federal and state, The entity we know as “constitutional law” is the creation of not only of the decisions of the Supreme Court, but also of the various Congresses and of the President.
Yet it is the court system, particularly the decisions of the Supreme Court, which most observers identify as providing the basis corpus of “constitutional law”. This body of law, this judicial handiwork, is, in a fundamental way, unique in our scheme, for the Court is charged routinely day in and day out, with the awesome task of addressing some of the most basic and important political questions of the nation. The answers of the Court are important to the stability of the law so necessary for good government. But as the constitutional scholar Charles Warren once noted, what is most important to remember is that “however the Court may interpret the provisions of the Constitution, it is the Constitution which is the law, not the decisions of the Court.”
By this, of course, Warren did not mean that a constitutional decision by the Supreme Court lacks the character of binding law. He meant that the Constitution remains the Constitution and that observers of the Court may fairly consider whether a particular Supreme Court decision was right or wrong. Thus remains in the country a vibrant and healthy debate among the members of the Supreme Court, as articulated in its opinions and between the Court and academics, politicians, columnists, and commentators, and the people generally, on whether the Court has correctly understood and applied the fundamental law of the Constitution. *We have seen throughout history what when the Supreme Court greatly misconstrues the Constitution, generations of mischief may follow*. The result is that, of its own accord or through the mechanism of the appointment process, the Supreme Court may come to revisit some of its doctrines and try, once again, to adjust its pronouncements to the commands of the Constitution.

I have always had a gun with me when there is wild life that could take me out. Better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six. Had a lot of run ins with bears, never had to kill one. On the other hand, have enjoyed a lot of moose, and caribou, thanks to a nice slow squeeze of the trigger. 

_Where were all these great repubs--when the mortgage crisis was going on..?? _

Who said the pubs were that great? That’s out of your mouth. But to set the record straight, Carter screwed the pooch with Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).
_Funny their silence is deafening! 95% of the tea baggers party received tax cuts--yet they blame Bama for everything.._
At what point is Obummer going to step up and own this presidency? He’s been in campaign mode since he’s been in office.
_8 years of spend spend spend and going to war on 2 fronts---and_
Invading Afghanistan was a a no brainer, however Bush failed to let Congress declare war, that is their job. If I had to invade a second country, it wouldn’t have been Iraq, ( Israel was busy handling that) it would have been Iran. The SOB’s held fifty-two of our people, for 444 days while I was in the military. 

_its all Bama's fault---Where did the SURPLUS GO-- Bush inherited when he got into office? Look at what Bama was handed---Bush handed the first Bail-out check--not Bama----_

Bush may have spent like a drunken sailor, but in comparison, Obama makes bush look like a piker.

_Seems these sleeping repubs needed to wake up under the Bush years---_

Maybe they got a wakeup call from America over the Ramos and Compean "crime of the century". What Jorge did was unforgiveable, got room for his buddy Scooter, but not real Americans trying to hold the border. Bush, Sutton, the whole damn bunch that made up “the justice system” failed Texas, and the American people.

_now they see what their hero--left the country---DEBT DEBT and aghhh More debt!!!_

Keep your hero worship of the anointed one. 
I didn’t like McLame, but I do like Sarah, have to admit thats he made myself, and the home state a LOT of money. So ya, I could vote for her. Maybe you didn’t know it, but she is the only one married to union labor, out of all the talking heads running for presidential, and vice-presidential candidates last time. At least with her in, there will be opportunity to go to work.

With Obama, all I have to say is *"My shovel is ready, where is my job*?" He may not be a job maker as president, but he has done an outstanding job of killing job opportunity!

Count me as an Independent that supports what the TEA Party is doing!:thumbsup:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> _Where were all these "change lovers" under Bush? _
> 
> At work. One in four is out of work now.
> 
> ...


Is the tea party mad that bama cut their taxes ???


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## Stub (Apr 19, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> Better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six.


"tried" should be "judged". I agree with your sentiment :thumbsup:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

_Is the tea party mad that bama cut their taxes ???_

Your kidding I assume? 

Look at the VAT coming at us. If you believe that he is "only going to tax those that make over $250K a year", I I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. The Bush tax break will die next year. There is a raise, in, and of itself.

I suppose you aren't paying attention to the $0.15 tax they are talking about on fuel? Maybe your not aware that it is the end user who pays all the taxes, not the corporations. They just pass the tax right through to us.

A fair tax would be a Flat Rate Tax, for America, but that's to much like common sense, so it doesn't stand a chance.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Stub said:


> "tried" should be "judged". I agree with your sentiment :thumbsup:


Their was soap on the edge of my soapbox...have to forgive this peasant...:notworthy:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> _Is the tea party mad that bama cut their taxes ???_
> 
> Your kidding I assume?
> 
> ...


Bama has reduced taxes this year for 95% of the population---its a fact!
And no Im not kidding---


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> _Is the tea party mad that bama cut their taxes ???_
> 
> Your kidding I assume?
> 
> ...


So with 2 wars and population growth---a horrible internal structure of road, bridges, tunnels, electrical grid---your answer is to tax everything we buy even more than it is now---? That would solve the problems of the country? The richest 5% of America pays 90% of all the taxes in the country---- maybe you dont realize that??? There is no such thing as a fair tax--a FLAT rate tax would never work-- When the GOV would want to raise taxes--in a FLAT tax system---a Gallon of milk would then cost $50.00

Whats next the Milk tea party? Give me a break---its the simple thinking that makes people laugh at the TEA party--especially since the majority of them got tax breaks under BAMA!!! :thumbsup::notworthy:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

bulldog1770 said:


> Bama has reduced taxes this year for 95% of the population---its a fact!
> And no Im not kidding---


That was easy, no job, no tax to pay!

History will not be kind to Obama. predicting no that his presidency will make Carter look like a rockstar, one of America's worst.

Obama is pissing way through money like there is no tomorrow. Not even the Chinese want to lend to us, doesn't that tell you anything? You can't spend your way out of a hole, and I can't get in the hole and stop him. As a president, he's been a nightmare so far.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> That was easy, no job, no tax to pay!
> 
> ---no the richest pay the overkill of all taxes---what the tea baggers pay is peanuts comnpared to the RICH..
> 
> ...


 :blink:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

_So with 2 wars and population growth---a horrible internal structure of road, bridges, tunnels, electrical grid---_

Can't drill where there is oil under the current administrations plan till 2012. Haven't started a nuke in thirty years. Can't cut a tree in a national forest, but it's okay for the country to go up in flames every summer, because the greenies block every cut program brought forward. Takes a little natural resource development, and a solid stewardship of the resources to build any of the items you want, you can't have it both ways, best figure it what you want to do.

_your answer is to tax everything we buy even more than it is now---?_

Don't play dumb...we get rid of the system we currently have, and adopt the system that Neil Boortz has written about. Our taxes would be at 25% 16% to the fed, 8% to the state, not the current 33% to 51% hidden in all sorts of items like the tax at the gas pump.


_Whats next the Milk tea party? Give me a break---its the simple thinking that makes people laugh at the TEA party--especially since the majority of them got tax breaks under BAMA!!! :thumbsup::notworthy:_ 

People will get tired of tax breaks by being unemployed. You think everyone can go to work for the government? It's the only industry growing right now. Watch in NOvember, we'll se who is laughing.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

*Obviously you haven't seen what employment in the west looks like. *


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> _So with 2 wars and population growth---a horrible internal structure of road, bridges, tunnels, electrical grid---_
> 
> Can't drill where there is oil under the current administrations plan till 2012.
> 
> ...


 :no::no::blink:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> Tax break by being unemployed -
> 
> 
> *Date:4/21/2010*
> ...


--Funny I was laid-off for a month--now I have had 2 offers at $120K a year PLUS Bonus/ Company car/full benes to start (took one starting in May)--Amazing what getting my OWN job did for my bank account after I left the LOCAL----:thumbsup: WOW behind the times cant even e-mail in your spot on the book?????


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> *Obviously you haven't seen what employment in the west looks like. *



Must be the presidents fault----he is the creator of all jobs-- :laughing::laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> _So with 2 wars and population growth---a horrible internal structure of road, bridges, tunnels, electrical grid---_
> 
> Can't drill where there is oil under the current administrations plan till 2012. Haven't started a nuke in thirty years. Can't cut a tree in a national forest, but it's okay for the country to go up in flames every summer, because the greenies block every cut program brought forward. Takes a little natural resource development, and a solid stewardship of the resources to build any of the items you want, you can't have it both ways, best figure it what you want to do.
> 
> ...




It's laughable that at this point anyone thinks that either party is gonna do a better job.

Were in the $hit now boys so get used to it.

Bush jr. Was probably the worst president in the last 50 years. Obama, it's to early to tell but so far it isn't looking good.
But republicans sitting around screaming about saving the country is a joke. You had the white house for 8 years and completely destroyed it. Everyone was fed up and voted in the democrats and now that things didn't change over night were ready to give the country back to the republicans.

Were at a pivotel point in our country right now.We need a REAL leader but right now I don't see one in either party.And the real irony is we (our government that is) created most of our problems we have today.

Both parties suck but please republicans...........................

Sarah Palin cut me a break.


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## Stub (Apr 19, 2010)

bulldog1770 said:


> Bama has reduced taxes this year for 95% of the population---its a fact!
> And no Im not kidding---


It's a fact that somewhere over 40% of the population didn't pay income tax at all this year, and many of them got money back via the earned income credit BS. That money they got back came out of MY paycheck. That's socialism, THAT'S a fact.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> It's laughable that at this point anyone thinks that either party is gonna do a better job.
> 
> Were in the $hit now boys so get used to it.
> 
> ...


I agree---I think Bama would have been a great president --being handed the situation Bush Jr. was handed---surplus etc... I dont think any LEADER could have done a "great" job with this last recession---its just too big with too many things going wrong in general-- Yes I think Palin is a joke and always has been---yes we are LOST with the 2 party system we have in place---both have their own agendas for the party--instead of the PEOPLE like it should be... Well--lets look at history--how long did a real DEMOCRACY ever last---I dont think the answer is very good--I believe it was 200 yrs.. before it imploded---- How long can you charge the customer the most amount possible while not given them a job---?? :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Racinjason said:


> Its not that other countries can do what we do for less.. i*ts the fact that "other countries" governments do not allow unions. *


Of course it is. :blink:

That is such a short sighted simplistic view it ain't even worth fighting about. :no:

In many cases the people are happy to have a job even when by our standards we think they are getting screwed. They are years away from even thinking they want a union.

I am not saying that is good, just that it is a fact. 

But go ahead deny the obvious.




> Until the majority of this country ceases buying foreign made products things wont change.


And that is not going to happen, not a chance in hell. 

But go ahead deny the obvious.





> Next time you buy a Hyundai or Nissan.. think about the effects it will have on your children and their children.. they may be the kids sewing "nikes" in a sweatshop right here in the good ole USA, but as long as you get the best price on them..its ok right?


Never bought any of those items, but Chevys I own were built in Canada. 



> Try sacrificing a few dollars now for a future for your children.. just like your ancestors did.


Throwing money into the wind is not going to help my childrens future, at this point in time my not buying underwear made in the ROC is not going to change a thing.

I have not given up but I do have more realistic expectations for our country. Could I be wrong? Hell yeah, but it is how I see it.


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Stub said:


> It's a fact that somewhere over 40% of the population didn't pay income tax at all this year, and many of them got money back via the earned income credit BS. That money they got back came out of MY paycheck. That's socialism, THAT'S a fact.


So you paid more in income tax??? They took more out of your pay? Income tax is a percentage--so they took your percentage a little higher??? To pay for others??? Earned income tax is nothing new--has been there since I can remember--- Socialism--is not capitalism---America is a capitalist society--


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Stub said:


> It's a fact that somewhere over 40% of the population didn't pay income tax at all this year, and many of them got money back via the earned income credit BS. That money they got back came out of MY paycheck. That's socialism, THAT'S a fact.



Oh you are from Jersey--yeah you should be mad about taxes--the highest in the country---I can see why you are angry---but your income tax did not go up--like your state has--forever--- Hint--Move to PA--your taxes will take a huge DIVE--- :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

bulldog1770 said:


> Or we can just do it the Badger way and say--hey we suk--lets give up--- :notworthy:


Yes that is exactly what I am saying.  


That is such a lame ass response from you but oh so typical. 


If you can't admit that people in countries that traditionally have had little work are not willing to work harder then us it just shows how far in denial you are.

Knock yourself out gents and save the world one long forum post at a time, I gonna go play.:thumbsup:


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## bulldog1770 (May 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes that is exactly what I am saying.
> 
> 
> That is such a lame ass response from you but oh so typical.
> ...


Like I said smarter not harder---they shovel a road we bulldoze it---yes OK--they did work harder!!!! Now go play---but not hard--just harder--people will call you lazy--- :whistling2::laughing::chinese:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

--Lets see Bush didn't drill either--now that Bama will---he is the bad guy??
Thanks to an Anti = development Congress.
Haven't started a nuke in thirty years.

--Bama wants (2) in Ga...
Want in one hand and $hit in the other, see which one fills up quicker, Took 14 months to deliver an illegal obamacare health bill.

Can't cut a tree in a national forest, but it's okay for the country to go up in flames every summer, because the greenies block every cut program brought forward.

--called natural selection--fire brings more trees-- kills old and weak and damaged ones--new ones come from the ASH---
You must be from the city, here in the country; the only thing that gets cut is jobs. Stupid enviro’s have stopped the wood business in the west.


Takes a little natural resource development, and a solid stewardship of the resources to build any of the items you want, you can't have it both ways, best figure it what you want to do.


---is there a shortage of wood--FOX news is hiding from me???
How’s that Chinese imported $hitrock working for you?


your answer is to tax everything we buy even more than it is now---?

Don't play dumb...

--thats a Repub thing not me--

We get rid of the system we currently have, and adopt the system that Neil Boortz has written about. Our taxes would be at 25% 16% to the fed, 8% to the state, not the current 33% to 51% hidden in all sorts of items like the tax at the gas pump.

--yeah if its in a book it must work---
Better that what the clown from Chi-town is trying to sell.


Whats next the Milk tea party? Give me a break---its the simple thinking that makes people laugh at the TEA party--especially since the majority of them got tax breaks under BAMA!!! 

People will get tired of tax breaks by being unemployed.

--thats Bama's fault how---he was handed a recession--he didnt create one!!
14 months, and we now have government motors(formerly General Motors), and an illegal obamacare socialist medical program. Forcing people to buy health care. 
What’s next? Going to force me to buy a car from GM? They have Freddie Mac, going to make me buy a house? Where does the BS end? I would call the current administration's record a failure at best.

You think everyone can go to work for the government?

----who said that??
*Seems to be the only industry with any growth*

It's the only industry growing right now. Watch in NOvember, we'll see who is laughing.

----has it been 4 years already---and please tell me how more repubs is going to do anything but stop anything from ever happening--its called GRIDLOCK----
*Stopping a moron isn’t such a bad thing! As a matter of fact, till he gets something going that is good, I'd call it a positive development!*


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Well since this has sunk into yet another deep political debate this thread is now closed.


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