# Siemens vs Square D



## B4T

All I use is Murray.. seems to be very popular here on Long island and the breakers are very easy to find


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## MF Dagger

I like both of them pretty much equally. UNLESS I didn't install the QO and they stacked all the neutrals and grounds from the front. Huge pet peeve.


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## NolaTigaBait

My supply house stock Siemens and Murray...Lately , I've been using Homeline because I can get them cheaper elsewhere. I think Square D is a better quality.


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## BuzzKill

Replaced a Siemens indoor load center today for one that had burnt up the bus bars in a condo today. I liked the new model, everything was nice and seperated, lots of room to work.


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## william1978

Square D is what I prefer.


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## captkirk

I use Square D QO now. It cost a little more but I charge accordingly.


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## BuzzKill

Black4Truck said:


> All I use is Murray.. seems to be very popular here on Long island and the breakers are very easy to find


I always forget who owns who and what will fit what.


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> I always forget who owns who and what will fit what.


Yea.. don't put GE breakers in a Murray panel unless you plan on leaving this forum :laughing:

I did that last week and caught hell for it.. only problem I don't care :thumbup:


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## Magnettica

MF Dagger said:


> I like both of them pretty much equally. UNLESS I didn't install the QO and they stacked all the neutrals and grounds from the front. Huge pet peeve.


I hear that!


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## Romex Butcher

Black4Truck said:


> Yea.. don't put GE breakers in a Murray panel unless you plan on leaving this forum :laughing:
> 
> I did that last week and caught hell for it.. only problem I don't care :thumbup:


You rip on DIY's for using Carlon boxes. Well, right back at you. Mixing breakers in a panel is exactly what the DIY's do and is the first clue of amateur work. 

As for you not caring, that's just sad. Don't you care about doing professional quality work?


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## TOOL_5150

Square D. QO preferably, but doesnt always happen.















































~Matt


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## TOOL_5150

Part 2

Square D, big or small.














































~Matt


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## kbsparky

Square D type QO panels have recessed bus bars, and as such are much safer to work on while energized. 

Siemens, Murray, GE, Homeline, Cutler Hammer Bryant, etc. all have protruding bus stabs which can easily be bumped into by one's knuckles making them much more hazardous. :blink:


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## drsparky

kbsparky said:


> Square D type QO panels have recessed bus bars, and as such are much safer to work on while energized.
> 
> Siemens, Murray, GE, Homeline, Cutler Hammer Bryant, etc. all have protruding bus stabs which can easily be bumped into by one's knuckles making them much more hazardous. :blink:


Or dropping a a lock nut on the protruding stabs. Murry has Al buss, you buy cheap you will get cheap.


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## Magnettica

Square D doesn't use an aluminum bus?


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## NolaTigaBait

Magnettica said:


> Square D doesn't use an aluminum bus?


No, it is an aluminum buss.


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## Jim Port

Magnettica said:


> Square D doesn't use an aluminum bus?


Homeline is AL, QO is tinned copper.


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## B4T

Romex Butcher said:


> You rip on DIY's for using Carlon boxes. Well, right back at you. Mixing breakers in a panel is exactly what the DIY's do and is the first clue of amateur work.
> 
> As for you not caring, that's just sad. Don't you care about doing professional quality work?


All that coming from a "Romex Butcher" 

I do quality work all the time and when doing a service change, I only use Murray breakers in a Murray panel.

I did a service call a few weeks ago and needed to change a GE breaker.. all I had on the truck was Murray.. that is what I used.

There were also some old blue and red Bryant breakers in the same panel.

The part I don't care about is being judged by someone on an Internet forum who knows nothing about who I am and I have never met.

LOTS of EC's have committed this "sin".. but keep it to themselves :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica

Bob, the right thing to do is come back with the right circuit breaker and install them. I don't want to tell you how to run your business but just this morning I removed 7 whatever circuit breakers from a GE panel and installed GE breakers in their place. All I really had to do was tell the HO about the danger of not using the right circuit breakers and they were practically begging me to put in the right breakers. Ka-ching! And is there anything easier than swapping out a few circuit breakers?


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## Romex Butcher

Black4Truck said:


> The part I don't care about is being judged by someone on an Internet forum who knows nothing about who I am and I have never met.


I don't need to know you or know about your personality. Mixing and matching different breakers in a panelboard is a code violation and amateur level work at best. You judge a job by a Carlon boxes. If I see mix and match breakers in a panel I know right away I'm dealing with an amateur electrician or a DIY. 



> LOTS of EC's have committed this "sin".. but keep it to themselves :thumbsup:


I couldn't care less how many people do it. It's still a violation and looks unprofessional. And you didn't keep it to yourself so now you're open to criticism, just like the buried splice boxes.


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## NolaTigaBait

Calm down Peter!


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## B4T

Romex Butcher said:


> I don't need to know you or know about your personality. Mixing and matching different breakers in a panelboard is a code violation and amateur level work at best. You judge a job by a Carlon boxes. If I see mix and match breakers in a panel I know right away I'm dealing with an amateur electrician or a DIY.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't care less how many people do it. It's still a violation and looks unprofessional. And you didn't keep it to yourself so now you're open to criticism, just like the buried splice boxes.


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## Romex Butcher

OK, I see. I get criticized for saying we should actually follow the code. :001_huh:


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## drsparky

Murry is Siemens economy line, basically the cheapest panel made. Some consumers want the cheapest available, most will pay more for quality. If someone is violating code with the things you can obviously see like interchanging breakers, you must wonder what is hidden behind the walls.


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## MDShunk

I don't really care for any of the 1" breaker designs.

I prefer CH-CH first, and Square D's QO second. The only time I use a panel that takes 1" breakers is when I'm matching other panels in the same building.


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## B4T

drsparky said:


> Murry is Siemens economy line, basically the cheapest panel made. Some consumers want the cheapest available, most will pay more for quality. If someone is violating code with the things you can obviously see like interchanging breakers, you must wonder what is hidden behind the walls.


 
That was a shot at me and you would be wrong :no:

If Murray bought out GE tomorrow and slapped a label on the panel listing Murray breakers, just what would change that made it fit "better' :blink:


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## I_get_shocked

I really like Siemens panels. Copper Bus, Machine screws on the cover, lots of room to work with... 

I will not purchase cutler hammer because of issues I have had with their arc faults however their customer service is great


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> I don't really care for any of the 1" breaker designs.
> 
> I prefer CH-CH first, and Square D's QO second. The only time I use a panel that takes 1" breakers is when I'm matching other panels in the same building.


So you never install a 1" design panelboard for a new installation then?


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## NolaTigaBait

drsparky said:


> Murry is Siemens economy line, basically the cheapest panel made. Some consumers want the cheapest available, most will pay more for quality. If someone is violating code with the things you can obviously see like interchanging breakers, you must wonder what is hidden behind the walls.


I think it's a toss-up between Murray and GE...Murray is one of the cheaper panels, yet somehow they cost more at my supply house than a square d costs at the Depot with breakers!...


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## drsparky

Its not a shot on anyone. I wrote it to encourage folks to think.
GM makes Chevy's and Cadillac's, they have different price points and features. If you are on a budget you buy a stripped down Chevy, if you want a nicer car you buy a loaded Cadillac. Both will get you back and forth to work. 
Siemens makes a low budget line, Murry. To produce them cheaper they use material like aluminum instead of copper for the buss. They also make the Siemens line, it is higher priced because they use uses copper buss and the neutral blocks are better. The market exists for both economy and premium panels. Square D came out with the low budget Homeline series to compete with Murry but they still make higher price QO line. You and you customer must weigh the benefits of a premium verses economy equipment.
As for the mixed breakers in a panel. Lets say two similar homes in a subdivision are on the market. Enter the home inspector, a report is written. One house has this obvious code violation, the other has no violations, which home will sell for a higher price and quicker? Would a easy to see code violation make one wonder what else was done in violation or would you assume that everything was done correctly?


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## drsparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think it's a toss-up between Murray and GE...Murray is one of the cheaper panels, yet somehow they cost more at my supply house than a square d costs at the Depot with breakers!...


Toss ups I go with with the American company. GE and Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) are American companies, Siemens is German, Snyder Electric (Square D) is French. I like my money to stay locally as possible.
Oh, GE has a copper buss, it will take heat better and last longer.


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## Romex Butcher

drsparky said:


> Toss ups I go with with the American company. GE and Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) are American companies, Siemens is German, Snyder Electric (Square D) is French. I like my money to stay locally as possible.
> Oh, GE has a copper buss, it will take heat better and last longer.


IIRC Cutler Hammer breakers are made in the Dominican Republic, Murray/Siemens and SqD are made in Mexico, and GE breakers say made in USA but are actually made in Puerto Rico while others are made in Singapore. 

I think the panelboards themselves are American made of all those companies, but I'm not 100% sure.


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## NolaTigaBait

drsparky said:


> Toss ups I go with with the American company. GE and Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) are American companies, Siemens is German, Snyder Electric (Square D) is French. I like my money to stay locally as possible.
> Oh, GE has a copper buss, it will take heat better and last longer.


Don't care...GE is made crappy...I don;t like it...Cuttlet hammer seems ok...I get the best value with the Homeline though...


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## MDShunk

Romex Butcher said:


> So you never install a 1" design panelboard for a new installation then?


I have, on occasion, where price was the main concern (HUD rehab jobs, etc.). I'm never especially proud of the fact.


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## NolaTigaBait

MDShunk said:


> I have, on occasion, where price was the main concern (HUD rehab jobs, etc.). I'm never especially proud of the fact.


Why are you against 1'' breakers?....Is the CHCH the one with the brown handles?


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## MadRoper

I use SqD Homeline all the time because it is so cheap yet you can sell the homeowner on the super top quality Square D product :thumbsup:


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## Romex Butcher

NolaTigaBait said:


> Why are you against 1'' breakers?....Is the CHCH the one with the brown handles?


Yeah, tan handles and the breakers and panelboards are double the cost of Homeline or Murray/Siemens. It's not common in my area and hardly anyone uses it (certainly not in new houses), but I picked up some CH-CH stuff when Lowes closed it all out and I'm very impressed by the quality.


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## MDShunk

NolaTigaBait said:


> Why are you against 1'' breakers?....Is the CHCH the one with the brown handles?


Yeah. The Cutler Hammer "CH" line is the 3/4" breakers with the brown handles.

What do I have against 1" breakers? Nothing, except that they're more prone to bus connection failures than any other style.


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## drsparky

Romex Butcher said:


> IIRC Cutler Hammer breakers are made in the Dominican Republic, Murray/Siemens and SqD are made in Mexico, and GE breakers say made in USA but are actually made in Puerto Rico while others are made in Singapore.
> 
> I think the panelboards themselves are American made of all those companies, but I'm not 100% sure.


Last I checked Puerto Rico was part of the USA.
Think of Nike, they are a American company, make nothing here, but almost all the profits come back to the USA and are invested here.


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## NolaTigaBait

MDShunk said:


> Yeah. The Cutler Hammer "CH" line is the 3/4" breakers with the brown handles.
> 
> What do I have against 1" breakers? Nothing, except that they're more prone to bus connection failures than any other style.


Gotcha...That seems like it happens to Murray/Siemens more than any other brand I have seen.


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> What do I have against 1" breakers? Nothing, except that they're more prone to bus connection failures than any other style.



What causes this? Why does a seemingly good connection between the breaker and the stab go bad?

I had to replace a 100 amp main breaker in Milbank meter main the other day and was baffled as to what caused the failure. The breaker appeared to make a good connection onto the stabs but it failed nevertheless.


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## Romex Butcher

drsparky said:


> Last I checked Puerto Rico was part of the USA.
> Think of Nike, they are a American company, make nothing here, but almost all the profits come back to the USA and are invested here.


I understand that. I'm just saying in the age of multinational global corporations, the idea of a "USA company" is a very murky concept.


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## MDShunk

Romex Butcher said:


> What causes this? Why does a seemingly good connection between the breaker and the stab go bad?


I have no idea, but I know what the cure is. Don't use 1" breakers.


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## NolaTigaBait

MDShunk said:


> I have no idea, but I know what the cure is. Don't use 1" breakers.


I'd love to use QO every time....They put me out of line, price-wise, with the average homeowner though.


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> I have no idea, but I know what the cure is. Don't use 1" breakers.


:laughing: :thumbup:


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## Rudeboy

I really don't prefer any brand but I usually install CH and Murray.
How about...







?


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## Romex Butcher

Rudeboy said:


> I really don't prefer any brand but I usually install CH and Murray.
> How about...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


Just had one burn up the other day. See above. :thumbsup:

As for who actually makes the Milbank breakers, they don't appear to be a clone of anything recognizable from the Big 4. They must OEM their own stuff.


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## Rudeboy

Romex Butcher said:


> Just had one burn up the other day. See above. :thumbsup:
> 
> As for who actually makes the Milbank breakers, they don't appear to be a clone of anything recognizable from the Big 4. They must OEM their own stuff.


Ahh, I missed that. 
I've installed a couple of them and haven't any problems... yet.


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## Romex Butcher

Rudeboy said:


> Ahh, I missed that.
> I've installed a couple of them and haven't any problems... yet.


Why are you rolling your eyes? :001_huh:

Milbank meter sockets are generally very reliable and trouble free. This particular main breaker was a typical 1" style stab in so I don't fault Milbank for it, I fault the basic design as Marc stated.


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## Rudeboy

Romex Butcher said:


> Why are you rolling your eyes? :001_huh:
> 
> Milbank meter sockets are generally very reliable and trouble free. This particular main breaker was a typical 1" style stab in so I don't fault Milbank for it, I fault the basic design as Marc stated.


Because I didn't read your post before posting mine. 

Yeah, the Milbanks I've installed seemed pretty nice.


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## MDShunk

Romex Butcher said:


> Just had one burn up the other day. See above. :thumbsup:
> 
> As for who actually makes the Milbank breakers, they don't appear to be a clone of anything recognizable from the Big 4. They must OEM their own stuff.


Most of the Milbanks mains I've seen are exact copies of Zinsco QFB's made by a company called Unicorn.


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## Romex Butcher

Rudeboy said:


> Because I didn't read your post before posting mine.


Gotcha. :thumbsup:



> Yeah, the Milbanks I've installed seemed pretty nice.


Milbank stuff tends to be very pricey for anything other than a basic 1-gang non-bypass meter socket, but high quality overall and American made.


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> Most of the Milbanks mains I've seen are exact copies of Zinsco QFB's made by a company called Unicorn.


I should have seen it a mile away that you would know the answer to that question. :laughing:

Good bit of trivia anyway.


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## MadRoper

Romex Butcher said:


> Good bit of trivia anyway.


Yeah, it is just soooo entertaining :yawn:


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## Romex Butcher

MadRoper said:


> Yeah, it is just soooo entertaining :yawn:


For the record, I didn't search out a Unicorn replacement breaker. I installed a Murray as a replacement. The Milbank meter-mains are listed for all common brands of 1" breakers.


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## Romex Butcher

MadRoper said:


> Yeah, it is just soooo entertaining :yawn:


Sorry, I meant :sleep1:


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## B4T

Romex Butcher said:


> Sorry, I meant :sleep1:


That got you in trouble not too long ago.. don't you learn when to STFU? :no:


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## MadRoper

Romex Butcher said:


> Sorry, I meant :sleep1:


You do that again and I'll bring down the Ban Hammer on you.


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## Romex Butcher

Black4Truck said:


> That got you in trouble not too long ago.. don't you learn when to STFU? :no:


Ok Mr. Big Mouth.


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## MadRoper

Romex Butcher said:


> Ok Mr. Big Mouth.


It's so much easier ignoring him.


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## Romex Butcher

MadRoper said:


> You do that again and I'll bring down the Ban Hammer on you.


I'm reserving the :sleep1: for you only because you're a troll.


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## Magnettica

GE owns NBC and they employ Olberman and the other jackasses on MSLSD. 

Screw GE!


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## MadRoper

Romex Butcher said:


> I'm reserving the :sleep1: for you only because you're a troll.


I'm not a troll. I don't post JUST to cause trouble, most of the normal members do that.


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## Romex Butcher

MadRoper said:


> I'm not a troll. I don't post JUST to cause trouble, most of the normal members do that.


True. Example A would be B4T.


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## william1978

MadRoper said:


> I'm not a troll. I don't post JUST to cause trouble, most of the normal members do that.


 Who said anyone was normal here?


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## Romex Butcher

william1978 said:


> Who said anyone was normal here?


I'm totally normal. :wacko:


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## MadRoper

Romex Butcher said:


> True. Example A would be B4T.


And many other members who post only to start trouble or get a rise out of people.

Having multiple screen names does not automatically make you a troll.


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## B4T

Romex Butcher said:


> True. Example A would be B4T.


:laughing:


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## HectorRogerio

*yep*

I agree with that


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## Romex Butcher

MadRoper said:


> Having multiple screen names does not automatically make you a troll.


No argument here as I have multiple screen names. :whistling2:


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## Romex Butcher

HectorRogerio said:


> I agree with that


:sleep1:


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## william1978

Romex Butcher said:


> I'm totally normal. :wacko:


 What ever you say there Peter.:sleep1:


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## B4T

MadRoper said:


> It's so much easier ignoring him.


I wonder how long it will take me to find you reading my posts


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## MadRoper

william1978 said:


> What ever you say there Peter.:sleep1:


PeterD is an institution.


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## Romex Butcher

Square D, hands down. Though Siemens is nice because it has a copper bus.


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## MDShunk

Romex Butcher said:


> For the record, I didn't search out a Unicorn replacement breaker. I installed a Murray as a replacement. The Milbank meter-mains are listed for all common brands of 1" breakers.


Yeah, Milbank is pretty much the only manufacturer I know of that has had their panels investigated for use with pretty much anything that will fit. The list of compliant breakers is very long.


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## william1978

Romex Butcher said:


> Square D, hands down. Though Siemens is nice because it has a copper bus.


 A useful post.


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## B4T

william1978 said:


> A useful post.


Even a blind dog can find a bone once in a while :laughing:


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## william1978

Black4Truck said:


> Even a blind dog can find a bone once in a while :laughing:


 :laughing:


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, Milbank is pretty much the only manufacturer I know of that has had their panels investigated for use with pretty much anything that will fit. The list of compliant breakers is very long.


In other words, it's the only piece of equipment that I know of where you can have a 4 gang meter stack and put a GE, Homeline, Murray and Cutler Hammer breaker in each breaker position and be ok. :laughing:


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## MDShunk

Romex Butcher said:


> In other words, it's the only piece of equipment that I know of where you can have a 4 gang meter stack and put a GE, Homeline, Murray and Cutler Hammer breaker in each breaker position and be ok. :laughing:


It's the only one I know about like that... wait!  I think there are a couple pool panels like that. Some Florida guys might know.


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> It's the only one I know about like that... wait! I think there are a couple pool panels like that. Some Florida guys might know.


Now that you mention it, I have a Connecticut Electric spa panel sitting in my inventory that is listed for multiple breakers. 

And I believe the Intermatic (?) pool panels you mentioned are also universal.


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## Magnettica

Peter, I imagine you're sitting there at the computer with like 46 open windows and each page has a different screen name. Is that about right?


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## Romex Butcher

Magnettica said:


> Peter, I imagine you're sitting there at the computer with like 46 open windows and each page has a different screen name. Is that about right?


No, not at all. Only one is ET using my current screen name. :thumbsup:


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## HectorRogerio

*Silver*

I can't wait for the new silver coated buss Siemans in 2012


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## Romex Butcher

HectorRogerio said:


> I can't wait for the new silver coated buss Siemans in 2012


Worthless troll.


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## Teaspoon

I_get_shocked said:


> I really like Siemens panels. Copper Bus, Machine screws on the cover, lots of room to work with...
> 
> I will not purchase cutler hammer because of issues I have had with their arc faults however their customer service is great


 
I like Siemens They are good panels .Seldom do I use anything else.
Square D QO is a good panel. But more pricey.
Don't like Homeline,Murry Or GE


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## Norcal

Milbank uses a Zinsco clone in some of their products & Zinsco clones is one reason I want nothing to do w/ anything they produce, Zinsco is a product that needs to die. Milbank did buy Unicorn & they had a Zinsco style "PICK N'AMP" breaker that all one needed to do was change a rating plug instead of the whole breaker, which was popular w/ trailer parks.


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## EJPHI

I really hope the engineers at SQD and Seimens read this forum.

SQD vs Seimens was discussed a while back:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f9/same-old-stuff-10097/index2/

To sum up:
SQD
- QO not available in an EUSERC "all in one", so it can't be used as an outdoor service in many left coast utilities juristictions. Homeline is no problem though.
- Lagging in the development of AFCI's for MWB circuits.
- Only the reversible mains QO panels have copper busses; all others are aluminium.

Seimens
+ EURSERC panels available.
+ AFCI's available for MWBC's.
- Copper bus only for L1/L2, neutral is aluminium.
- Wimpy meter/main lug bus. See thread mentioned above 220/221 has a good fix. His fix is the way to go.
- Sharp sheet metal screw tips protrude into the space below the breakers. Ouch- keep hands outa there! Not good for wires either. 

EJPHI


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## Innovative

drsparky said:


> Murry is Siemens economy line, basically the cheapest panel made. Some consumers want the cheapest available, most will pay more for quality. If someone is violating code with the things you can obviously see like interchanging breakers, you must wonder what is hidden behind the walls.


Murray is not Siemens economy line..... why do you insist on saying this..... you also seem to think all Murray panels have Alum buss bars, where do you come up with this information???


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## Innovative

drsparky said:


> Its not a shot on anyone. I wrote it to encourage folks to think.
> GM makes Chevy's and Cadillac's, they have different price points and features. If you are on a budget you buy a stripped down Chevy, if you want a nicer car you buy a loaded Cadillac. Both will get you back and forth to work.
> Siemens makes a low budget line, Murry. To produce them cheaper they use material like aluminum instead of copper for the buss. They also make the Siemens line, it is higher priced because they use uses copper buss and the neutral blocks are better. The market exists for both economy and premium panels. Square D came out with the low budget Homeline series to compete with Murry but they still make higher price QO line. You and you customer must weigh the benefits of a premium verses economy equipment.
> As for the mixed breakers in a panel. Lets say two similar homes in a subdivision are on the market. Enter the home inspector, a report is written. One house has this obvious code violation, the other has no violations, which home will sell for a higher price and quicker? Would a easy to see code violation make one wonder what else was done in violation or would you assume that everything was done correctly?


So the Corvette is the economy line???


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## Innovative

MDShunk said:


> It's the only one I know about like that... wait! I think there are a couple pool panels like that. Some Florida guys might know.


Yep... the intermatic pool panels are listed for use with several breaker types......

My take.... never had a CH - CH buss burn up, or a QO. Old Siemens used to do this quite often, however, it seems to be a non-issue since about 1992 or so, as they started using tighter tolerances, better metals in their buss or improved their product in some other way. GE load centers and SqD HL are the cheapest, pricewise, and I do not care to use them(lots of problems with HL Arc faults and GFCI breakers and I cant stand the way GE breakers fit in the panel).Murray does have a price point product that has an alum buss, but most of their load centers are copper buss. Murray and Siemens breakers are exactally the same, the company will even send you a UL listing sheet if you need to interchange these breakers with one another. Commercial panelboards, I like GE or CH, but I am not opposed to using any of the other brands on the market either, I just get the best pricing on those brands and am most familar with them. The only commercial panelboards I have ever had a problem with was the SqD powerlink line of breakers, which I believe they discontinued. For several years Walmart and Sams clubs used these breakers and had all kinds of problems with them ( we made alot of money replacing them).


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## Podagrower

For my residential applications, I use Siemens unless I am trying to match existing. I prefer the full length neutral bus to the Square D top mount. 
For commercial, I use Square D QOB unless I am trying to match existing.

I hate GE unless I need a cheap and dirty solution (it's kinda like McDonald's vs Wendy's)

I have never installed a CH panel, but they look nice.


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## MDShunk

Podagrower said:


> I have never installed a CH panel, but they look nice.


If you get a job where money isn't a huge deal, I'd encourage you to at least try a CH-CH panel (not a BR). The breakers clip on so tightly, sometimes you have to bump the 2-poles with the butt of your hammer to get them to latch down on. There's no doubt they make a good connection, as far as plug on breakers go. I'd like to think of the CH-CH as the Cadillac of plug-on breakers.


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## Romex Butcher

MDShunk said:


> If you get a job where money isn't a huge deal, I'd encourage you to at least try a CH-CH panel (not a BR).


I'm looking forward to using them myself. As I've said before the only real issue is availability, which is why I don't think they're too common here. BR, however, is very common.


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## drsparky

Innovative said:


> Murray is not Siemens economy line..... why do you insist on saying this..... you also seem to think all Murray panels have Alum buss bars, where do you come up with this information???


You're right, I haven't priced Murray in 10 years and I guess things have changed. I just looked at Siemens web site and they are priced about the same. I also see they offer them with copper buss too. :blink:


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## NolaTigaBait

Murray is junk...If you think it isn't, you are lying to yourself.


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## MDShunk

NolaTigaBait said:


> Murray is junk...If you think it isn't, you are lying to yourself.


Even if it isn't (I think it is), it has a certain stigma attached to it by now.


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## drsparky

Innovative said:


> So the Corvette is the economy line???


I wasn't thinking about Corvette but a Cadilac XLR-V is based on the Corvette platform and built in the same factory. It was priced at a mere $100,000.


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## Magnettica

MDShunk said:


> *If you get a job where money isn't a huge deal,* :laughing: I'd encourage you to at least try a CH-CH panel (not a BR). The breakers clip on so tightly, sometimes you have to bump the 2-poles with the butt of your hammer to get them to latch down on. There's no doubt they make a good connection, as far as plug on breakers go. I'd like to think of the CH-CH as the Cadillac of plug-on breakers.



I'll try the Cutler Hammer next upgrade I get. :thumbsup:


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## Innovative

NolaTigaBait said:


> Murray is junk...If you think it isn't, you are lying to yourself.


I dont use Murray, but for the record it is the same mechanically, as a Siemens panel........so, Siemens must be junk too.....


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## NolaTigaBait

Innovative said:


> I dont use Murray, but for the record it is the same mechanically, as a Siemens panel........so, Siemens must be junk too.....


One small step up...I used to use Murray , then I realized I can get the Homeline for cheaper...


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## Innovative

Info.......

Murray 40 cir 200 amp MB panel CU buss 98.77
Siemens 40 cir 200 amp MB panel CU buss 104.34
HL 40 cir 200 amp MB tin coated buss 79.88
GE 40 cir 200 amp MB tin coated buss 78.55 value pck 5 x 20a and 2 x d/p 30a
CH CH 40 cir 200 amp MB panel CU buss 119.40
QO same specs 135.60

Current Rexel pricing 3/15/2010 (GE is a program price....) We usually use CH or Siemens for residential and GE bolt in and GE spectra for commercial. Eaton for marina installations...........


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## sparky105

drsparky said:


> Toss ups I go with with the American company. GE and Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) are American companies, Siemens is German, Snyder Electric (Square D) is French. I like my money to stay locally as possible.
> Oh, GE has a copper buss, it will take heat better and last longer.


cutler hammer breakers are made in Dominican Republic hmmm


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## CTshockhazard

Two reasons why putting the 1" style breakers in a different manufacturers panel is hardly anything to get worked up about:

The Millbank meter/mains (some others as noted) ARE rated for several manufacturers breakers.

Take a look at a GE combination Arc Fault breaker, it's made by Siemans.

The Manufacturers know it's safe, they just want your money and don't want to spend any of their's on the added UL listing. The freaking buss designs are nearly identical. Yes, I know it's a violation, and yes I use what is rated. I'm just saying, the issue has little, to nothing, to do with safety.


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## 220/221

I've always thought QO was over rated.

I like the breaker terminal style but I hate how they are tilted back. 

I generally use Seimans/Siemans but can never remember the spelling.


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## Podagrower

Hey, what about Square D Trilliant.:no:


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## Norcal

Podagrower said:


> Hey, what about Square D Trilliant.:no:


 
Pity the folks who have Trilliant panels, they don't even have Chinese knockoff breakers to replace them, unlike Zinsco, FPE, & ITE Pushmatic.


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## MDShunk

Norcal said:


> Pity the folks who have Trilliant panels, they don't even have Chinese knockoff breakers to replace them, unlike Zinsco, FPE, & ITE Pushmatic.


I volunteered on a couple Habitat homes, and someone had given them a bunch of NIB Trilliant stuff to use in the one home. I tried to talk the job boss out of it, and he wasn't hearing any of it. I actually threw that stuff in the roll-off dumpster (making sure it was sufficiently broken) and put QO equipment in their storage trailer in its place. :whistling2:


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## NolaTigaBait

> DEAR LORD, THIS YEAR YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTOR, PATRICK SWAYZIE. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTRESS, FARAH FAWCETT. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE SINGER, MICHAEL JACKSON. I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW, MY FAVORITE PRESIDENT IS BARACK OBAMA. AMEN


 
Off topic...but that is funny chit.


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## Podagrower

So, I went and replaced an AC disconnect today that was not working. Bus burned up, breaker connection almost completely melted.

And it was a Square D QO.

In almost 20 years, I have never seen a QO fail at the bus stab. But now I found one, is it like a Golden Ticket, do I get to tour the chocolate factory?


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## kbsparky

Outdoor A/C box? Probably got fried by a lightning strike.


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## B4T

NolaTigaBait said:


> Off topic...but that is funny chit.


I like it also :thumbup:


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## MF Dagger

Podagrower said:


> So, I went and replaced an AC disconnect today that was not working. Bus burned up, breaker connection almost completely melted.
> 
> And it was a Square D QO.
> 
> In almost 20 years, I have never seen a QO fail at the bus stab. But now I found one, is it like a Golden Ticket, do I get to tour the chocolate factory?


Sometimes the 2 pole QO's can be pretty tight to get in properly. I've seen more than one that wasn't seated all the way.


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## GREGNC

I prefer the seimans panel over sqaure d homeline 
they are usually about the same price.but the seimens has copper bus & the main breaker panels can 
be used as a sub panel by removing the bonding screw if you use a homeline main breaker panel as a sub remember to buy a grounding bar and a lug big enuf for the gec. or you will be making another trip to 
the supply house.
I,ve never used the cuttler hammer CH just to pricey to sell and breakers are not easy to find.


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## mattsilkwood

There is no comparison. Square D hands down. 
I've never installed a Siemans resi panel but their commercial stuff sucks. 
Cuttler hammer is a good product also but I dont like their bolt in breaker design. 
More specificly the fact that the screws aren't captive like Square D.


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## william1978

GREGNC said:


> I prefer the seimans panel over sqaure d homeline
> they are usually about the same price.but the seimens has copper bus & the main breaker panels can
> be used as a sub panel by removing the bonding screw if you use a homeline main breaker panel as a sub remember to buy a grounding bar and a lug big enuf for the gec. or you will be making another trip to
> the supply house.
> I,ve never used the cuttler hammer CH just to pricey to sell and breakers are not easy to find.


 Why not just remove that jumper that jumps the 2 sides together and leave the bond screw in for the grounds and the other would be for your neutrals.


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## Magnettica

william1978 said:


> Why not just remove that jumper that jumps the 2 sides together and leave the bond screw in for the grounds and the other would be for your neutrals.


That sounds like a lot of work. :laughing:

I much prefer using Square D.


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## william1978

Magnettica said:


> That sounds like a lot of work. :laughing:
> 
> I much prefer using Square D.


 Just remove 2 screws. Easier than istalling a ground bar.


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## miller_elex

For my own jobs, Square D Homeline, all day and night. Its the right price and decent quality.

QO is overpriced, overbuilt, and 3/4" breakers suck balls. The trip indicator is a nice touch. 

I don't interchange mfrs of my 1" breakers, it looks awfully unprofessional, that is, unless its a $50 GFI breaker, then I'll snap a CH-BR into a Homeline panel.

Gear wise, around here, whats mostly seen is Siemens. Sq-D is rare, and GE is a rare bird indeed. All design build stuff is Siemens, it is the cheapest, and I've grown to like it. Its kind of flimsy in a way, good for wobble walking it into place, not too heavy too muscle, rolls into place just fine.

I think Siemens gear was cheaper because they made it in town, but that operation shut down, so I can't say for sure what the cheapest gear in town is these days.


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## kbsparky

miller_elex said:


> ...I don't interchange mfrs of my 1" breakers, it looks awfully unprofessional, that is, unless its a $50 GFI breaker, then I'll snap a CH-BR into a Homeline panel.....


Ummm .... BR breakers do not physically fit into a Homeline panel. Unless you snip off the extra tabs on the bus bars, and _that_ is a definite no-no. :no:


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## Stub

miller_elex said:


> For my own jobs, Square D Homeline, all day and night. Its the right price and decent quality.


I agree. The panels and breakers are half the price of the QO offerings. Homeline seems to be good quality for a great price.

And the best part is that it still says "Square D" which many homeowners seem to know the name as being expensive and good quality.


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## vos

homeline is good but there tandem barkers do not fit w/o cutting a notch in the back


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## Stub

vos said:


> homeline is good but there tandem barkers do not fit w/o cutting a notch in the back


Never had that problem, I actually just put 2 tandems into a 100A 6-12 Homeline panel this very morning. Are you trying to jam tandem "barkers" into a panel that doesn't accept them?


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## vos

no it was in my one house its a 100a panel


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## GREGNC

william1978 said:


> Why not just remove that jumper that jumps the 2 sides together and leave the bond screw in for the grounds and the other would be for your neutrals.


you cannot remove a jumper on a homeline the lugs on both sides are
connected to the neutral bar you would have to cut it.no way would I do that! thats why I use seimans that and the copper bus


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## SPINA ELECTRIC

Been using Square D QO FOR 30 Years and its the main panel I use don't care if it's more money usually whatever I install in someones home I would install in mine then would come siemens as my second choice.


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## itsunclebill

CH classified breakers fit in pretty much any 1" panel and have a list of approved panels they can be installed in and breakers they can be used in place of. With a stock of these you don't need to carry all the brands and have a UL blessed breaker to put in the panel to boot. Some AHJs don't like them but that's seldom an issue with replacements anyway.


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## VeteranElectric

B4T said:


> All that coming from a "Romex Butcher"
> 
> I do quality work all the time and when doing a service change, I only use Murray breakers in a Murray panel.
> 
> I did a service call a few weeks ago and needed to change a GE breaker.. all I had on the truck was Murray.. that is what I used.
> 
> There were also some old blue and red Bryant breakers in the same panel.
> 
> The part I don't care about is being judged by someone on an Internet forum who knows nothing about who I am and I have never met.
> 
> LOTS of EC's have committed this "sin".. but keep it to themselves :thumbsup:



It's not a "Sin" you jackleg. It is a direct violation of the NEC and voids the warranty of that panel. Being a lazy and dumb electrician is never a legitimate defense. Call an inspector and show him how proud that you are of your work, see how you feel about it after he points out that you are unable to read the English language.


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## Wirenuting

VeteranElectric said:


> It's not a "Sin" you jackleg. It is a direct violation of the NEC and voids the warranty of that panel. Being a lazy and dumb electrician is never a legitimate defense. Call an inspector and show him how proud that you are of your work, see how you feel about it after he points out that you are unable to read the English language.












Yup


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## wendon

VeteranElectric said:


> It's not a "Sin" you jackleg. It is a direct violation of the NEC and voids the warranty of that panel. Being a lazy and dumb electrician is never a legitimate defense. Call an inspector and show him how proud that you are of your work, see how you feel about it after he points out that you are unable to read the English language.


Read the date of the post before you argue with someone!!!:laughing::laughing:


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## papaotis

vos said:


> homeline is good but there tandem barkers do not fit w/o cutting a notch in the back


the reason for that is becuase you are putting it in a panel not rated for tandems, or a part of a panel not rated for tandems. yeah, done it myself:whistling2:


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## VeteranElectric

wendon said:


> Read the date of the post before you argue with someone!!!:laughing::laughing:



Making fun of someone, and pointing out how horrible at the electric game they are, has no shelf life bro. 

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Haxwoper

Everyone should listen to the guy named "Stub" who posted in this thread. He is super awesome and mighty good looking.


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## 99cents

Haxwoper said:


> Everyone should listen to the guy named "Stub" who posted in this thread. He is super awesome and mighty good looking.


Is "Stub" a reference to the size of his manhood?


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## Haxwoper

99cents said:


> Is "Stub" a reference to the size of his manhood?


Out of the hundreds of girls who have seen it, not a single complaint.


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## 99cents

Haxwoper said:


> Out of the hundreds of girls who have seen it, not a single complaint.


I heard that the one woman who has seen it burst out laughing...


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## Haxwoper

99cents said:


> I heard that the one woman who has seen it burst out laughing...


You're trying to hard. This doesn't suit you. Maybe you should go have another hissy fit and leave for a few months?


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## 99cents

Haxwoper said:


> You're trying to hard. This doesn't suit you. Maybe you should go have another hissy fit and leave for a few months?


At least I left voluntarily.


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## Haxwoper

99cents said:


> At least I left voluntarily.


That must be some type of honor for you. Must be nice having such high goals in life :whistling2:


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## MTW

Romex Butcher and MadRoper. And one of Cletis' many identities was here too in the form of Hector Rogerio. Classic stuff. :laughing:


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## bw67

I work for Schneider Electric - Square D and wanted to clarify your statement. While we do have some low volume production in Mexico, the products you are discussing are manufactured in the United States. Our load centers are made in Lexington, KY and our breakers are made in Lincoln Nebraska.


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