# Urgent!! Wisconsin Licensing law



## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)




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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_Poppycock!_, you cheeseheads don't live past 50....:jester:~CS~


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't see what the issue is ? If they are 55, they probably forgot more than you know.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Roadking Classic said:


> To all the guys and gals that took the time to go through the training, testing and $$$$ to get your state of Wisconsin credentials. Apparently someone in the South Western part of our state is trying to have a grandfathering of people 55 years and older when the manditory licensing law takes effect this April 1st. Call everybody you can find in our government to express your displeasure with this continuing disregard for the safety the Wisconsin residents.


You have a link to that or is it just a rumor? How much difference is it going to make as most of them got their license before the deadline last April. Then the last minute they pushed it off another year.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

Does anyone know why they extended it last year?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Galt said:


> Does anyone know why they extended it last year?


For one thing, they didn't have any inspection available other than those pesky UDC guys. I still haven't heard of any commercial electrical inspectors other than the original state inspectors. I heard something about the Realtor's Assy. lobbying against it. Maybe someone else has more insider info on it.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

They extended it last year because a five year grace period wasn't fair to the people that just didn't have enough time to invest in their profession. Just because you maybe 55 or older doesn't mean you know what your doing. Oh I know you been doing electrical work your whole life. Its just that you've been doing it wrong. Take the classes. Read the books. Take the test. I know not everyone fits that. But I know quite a few that do. Its time to get laws that protect the consumers.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Roadking Classic said:


> They extended it last year because a five year grace period wasn't fair to the people that just didn't have enough time to invest in their profession. Just because you maybe 55 or older doesn't mean you know what your doing. Oh I know you been doing electrical work your whole life. Its just that you've been doing it wrong. Take the classes. Read the books. Take the test. I know not everyone fits that. But I know quite a few that do. *Its time to get laws that protect the consumers*.


It would be wonderful if that was the intent of the law. But we both know who lobbied for this licensing bill so it kind of takes the joy out of it even if it does create some more work for us licensed electricians. Look for exemptions to come down the pike when, and if they actually enact the law this year.


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2011)

Nice of you to assume because they don't have a license they have been doing it wrong there entire life!


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

azgard said:


> Nice of you to assume because they don't have a license they have been doing it wrong there entire life!


If they don't care enough about thier trade to pass a test then it is a pretty safe bet they did not care enough to learn how to do it right.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm one of those pushing for the grandfathering. I've been doing this since I was 16. I have a journeyman's ticket. Now they suddenly demand I have to have a masters to do what I've been doing all this time. And age 67 is a piss poor time to try to pass a timed exam. Testing is a young guy's game. And what the hell is the harm? We haven't needed any license for all these years, what is a few more years while us old codgers die off?

And I won't comment on your statement ultrafault, don't want a mod jumping on me for writing what I am thinking.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

jrclen said:


> I'm one of those pushing for the grandfathering. I've been doing this since I was 16. I have a journeyman's ticket. Now they suddenly demand I have to have a masters to do what I've been doing all this time. And age 67 is a piss poor time to try to pass a timed exam. Testing is a young guy's game. And what the hell is the harm? We haven't needed any license for all these years, what is a few more years while us old codgers die off? And I won't comment on your statement ultrafault, don't want a mod jumping on me for writing what I am thinking.



67 is a good time to retire. If you have that many years in the trade then you should be able to pass the test. I am working with guys that are not licensed and I'm hoping they get canned come April 1st and some are over 55 so don't screw it up.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

2dogs said:


> 67 is a good time to retire. If you have that many years in the trade then you should be able to pass the test. I am working with guys that are not licensed and I'm hoping they get canned come April 1st and some are over 55 so don't screw it up.


Wonder what it must be like to work with someone that hopes you get canned.........:whistling2::whistling2: How much work is a 67 year old going to take away from you?? I'd say grandfather 60 and older if they've been in the trade for 10 years or more.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

wendon said:


> Wonder what it must be like to work with someone that hopes you get canned.........:whistling2::whistling2: How much work is a 67 year old going to take away from you?? I'd say grandfather 60 and older if they've been in the trade for 10 years or more.



The problem is they think they know what they are doing because they have time in the trade. Take the test, we all had to. This law was passed in 2008 that gives you five years to pass the test. Maybe failing the test a few times will make these guys realize they don't know it all. Just because your old doesn't make you smart.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

jrclen said:


> I'm one of those pushing for the grandfathering. I've been doing this since I was 16. I have a journeyman's ticket. Now they suddenly demand I have to have a masters to do what I've been doing all this time. And age 67 is a piss poor time to try to pass a timed exam. Testing is a young guy's game. And what the hell is the harm? We haven't needed any license for all these years, what is a few more years while us old codgers die off?
> 
> And I won't comment on your statement ultrafault, don't want a mod jumping on me for writing what I am thinking.


How does this mandatory licensing requirement make you get your masters?

I am against grandfathering. Even if you've been doing this for 20+ years, that is a number of code cycles. Many times the old guys are the most uninformed when it comes to new requirements because "I've been doing it the other way for decades and nothing bad ever happened."


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

I work by myself. Under the new rules every journeyman must work under the direction of a master or must have a master's license.

And to keep my journeyman's license I must complete continuing eduction just like anyone else. So I take a course in the new code every time. You're poke at old guys is invalid and uncalled for.

Want us older guys to get the license? Then take the time limit off the test and let us plod along at our slower pace until we finish. In the field I am under no time limit to do calculations or to look something up.

And like anyone else, I must pass inspections and do code complaint work.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

2dogs said:


> 67 is a good time to retire.


And just who are you to decide when it's a good time for me to retire?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

jrclen said:


> I work by myself. Under the new rules every journeyman must work under the direction of a master or must have a master's license. And to keep my journeyman's license I must complete continuing eduction just like anyone else. So I take a course in the new code every time. You're poke at old guys is invalid and uncalled for. Want us older guys to get the license? Then take the time limit off the test and let us plod along at our slower pace until we finish. In the field I am under no time limit to do calculations or to look something up. And like anyone else, I must pass inspections and do code complaint work.


How do you pull permits without a Masters?

I wasn't aiming my comments directly at you, but why should age play a factor in the requirements? I do code compliant work too, should I get an exemption?


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

jrclen said:


> And just who are you to decide when it's a good time for me to retire?



Apparently the state of wi is deciding it for you. You don't pass the journeymans test you can't work without direct supervision of a licensed electrician. I guess you could be a 67 year old helper if you wanted to, I would rather retire or test myself, but that's up to you.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Deep Cover, I have never had a problem pulling permits. But then I am 60 miles from the nearest sizable city and I know things are different in the city.

2dogs, I guess you missed the part about my having a journeyman's license.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

jrclen said:


> Deep Cover, I have never had a problem pulling permits. But then I am 60 miles from the nearest sizable city and I know things are different in the city.
> 
> 2dogs, I guess you missed the part about my having a journeyman's license.


So you gonna need to take your masters? This law is being driven by the insurance companies. With liability claims the way it is they are going to want people licensed so they know that you have the necessary code knowledge to install properly.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Yes, the way it looks I either need to pass the masters or hook up with a contractor who has a masters or has a master on his staff. Or retire :laughing:

The law was pushed hard by the unions and the power companies too.

I should clarify here that I do support the idea of licensed electricians. That makes perfect sense. But I do support grandfathering for old codgers.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

jrclen said:


> Deep Cover, I have never had a problem pulling permits. But then I am 60 miles from the nearest sizable city and I know things are different in the city. 2dogs, I guess you missed the part about my having a journeyman's license.


As far as I know, it is state law that only home owners or master electricians can pull permits. So, if you own your own one-man-shop, you should already be required to hold a masters license.

Also, IIRC, journeymen are already required to be under the supervision of a master. I am at work now, but when I get off, I'll check SPS, unless one of the other guys get to it first.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Sheesh! Where's the respect for elders? We'll _all_ be old one day. :wheelchair:

I believe state licensing is a good thing and that they should also require a bona fide apprenticeship, which includes formal schooling. :smartass:

However, I think many states that went through implementing licensing for the first time had some sort of grandfathering exception based on age and number of years in the trade. jrclen has probably been doing electrical work longer than half the folks on this forum have been alive. :thumbsup:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> If they don't care enough about thier trade to pass a test then it is a pretty safe bet they did not care enough to learn how to do it right.


A test means little. I know a second year apprentice that passed the prometric test . Seriously the test is 100 open book questions and a pass is 70. 
I have been in the trade 40 years and a big part of it their were no license requirements . Missouri does not even have a state license and only a handful of cities have licensing . Most guys were grandfathered in during the 80s.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> A test means little. I know a second year apprentice that passed the prometric test . Seriously the test is 100 open book questions and a pass is 70.
> I have been in the trade 40 years and a big part of it their were no license requirements . Missouri does not even have a state license and only a handful of cities have licensing . Most guys were grandfathered in during the 80s.


 I don't understand that logic. Because something is not perfect does not mean it should not exist. Nothing is perfect and most things aren't even that good, but we have to take what we can get.
No one thing can hold contractors accountable. But testing at least ensures that someone at least has to own a code book before they get a license. There are multiple prometric tests but all of them can be passed by an intelligent person who has studied hard, even an apprentice.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> I don't understand that logic. Because something is not perfect does not mean it should not exist. Nothing is perfect and most things aren't even that good, but we have to take what we can get.
> No one thing can hold contractors accountable. But testing at least ensures that someone at least has to own a code book before they get a license. There are multiple prometric tests but all of them can be passed by an intelligent person who has studied hard, even an apprentice.


testing is just that . A man can have a lot of practical knowledge and be a great craftsmen even without a test. Your comment about someone not caring about their trade just because they get grandfathered in is ludicrous.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> testing is just that . A man can have a lot of practical knowledge and be a great craftsmen even without a test. Your comment about someone not caring about their trade just because they get grandfathered in is ludicrous.


Unfortunately 90 percent of people do not do more than they are required to. If people do not have to take a test and aquire ceus they will not. I absolutely know contractors who do not own a code book. Being grandfathered in does not make someone lazy, ignorant, and overconfident. We all have an ample supply of those traits born in us.

The real problem is the less someone knows about a subject the more likely the more likely they are to believe they are proficient at it. Until you force people to learn they will have no idea there is any more to know?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> Unfortunately 90 percent of people do not do more than they are required to. If people do not have to take a test and aquire ceus they will not. I absolutely know contractors who do not own a code book. Being grandfathered in does not make someone lazy, ignorant, and overconfident. We all have an ample supply of those traits born in us.
> 
> The real problem is the less someone knows about a subject the more likely the more likely they are to believe they are proficient at it. Until you force people to learn they will have no idea there is any more to know?


Where do you come up with this? So someone who has thirty years in the trade is going to be somehow better by taking a test?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> Where do you come up with this? So someone who has thirty years in the trade is going to be somehow better by taking a test?


Yes.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't see what the problem is here,The guys that can prove they've been in the trade pulling permits for their own shop Should be simply issued the required Masters License and pay the fee to the board,then simply follow the rules to maintain that license after that.

Forcing them to take the test when they're already Master Electricians seems unfair to me,and could put them out of business.

I'm in favor of the licensing law,but having a grandfather clause for the guys who've been in the business is the right thing to do.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> Yes.


How? Will a test make him faster? A test is just a test. Someone can study for the test and not have any practical skill.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I can't find the old version of what the state requirements were. I can only find the new code (As of 4/1/13).


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> How? Will a test make him faster? A test is just a test. Someone can study for the test and not have any practical skill.


That is why most jurisdictions require proof of work. For example st. Louis county requires 12000 hours, a signed affidavit from your supervising master electrician, and tax verifications. 
You know these things already. Are you trolling me? 
When you make cake do you stare without comprehension at the flour and bellow about how it is not a whole cake and should be thrown out? Testing is only a small part of what it takes to ensure professionalism and compliance in our trade.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> That is why most jurisdictions require proof of work. For example st. Louis county requires 12000 hours, a signed affidavit from your supervising master electrician, and tax verifications.
> You know these things already. Are you trolling me?
> When you make cake do you stare without comprehension at the flour and bellow about how it is not a whole cake and should be thrown out? Testing is only a small part of what it takes to ensure professionalism and compliance in our trade.


But just because someone does not choose to test does not mean they are incompetent or don't care about their trade. When you made that statement I don't think you put any thought into it.


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

Assembly Bill 683

Analysis by the Legislative Reference Bureau
Licensing structure
Under provisions that will become law on April 1, 2014, no person may work as
an electrician, and no person may engage in business as an electrical contractor,
unless the person is licensed by, or registered with, the Department of Safety and
Professional Services (DSPS).
Current statutory law classifies electricians as follows: beginning electricians,
journeyman electricians, and master electricians. The statutes require that
different licensing requirements be established by rule for residential journeyman
electricians. DSPS, by rule, has created the following additional types of electricians:
residential master electricians and industrial journeyman electricians. DSPS, by
rule, has also created electrical apprentices" as an additional classification of
electrician. This classification includes residential and industrial electrical
apprentices. This bill incorporates these types of electricians into the current
statutory licensing structure.
Master electricians
Under current rules promulgated by DSPS, in order to be licensed as a master
electrician, a person must have at least 1,000 hours per year of experience in
installing electrical wiring for at least seven years and have passed an examination,
as required by DSPS. If the person will be licensed as a residential master
electrician, he or she only needs 1,000 hours per year for at least five years. Under
these rules, DSPS must accept completed semesters at an institution of higher
education in an electrical−related educational program as partial credit towards this
experience.

This bill establishes statutory requirements for being a master electrician,
other than a residential master electrician. Under the bill, a person is eligible to be
licensed as a master electrician if he or she has a bachelor’s or master’s degree in
electrical engineering, if he or she has 12 months of experience in installing,
repairing, or maintaining electrical work while being licensed as a journeyman
electrician, or if he or she has at least 10,000 hours of experience in a period of not
less than 60 months, and has passed the DSPS examination. These statutory
requirements established under the bill apply only to persons who apply for master
electrician licenses after the bill becomes law. The bill does not establish separate
statutory requirements for residential master electricians, but it requires DSPS to
have rules in effect that establish requirements for these electricians.

Journeyman electricians
Current statutory law requires DSPS to promulgate rules that require that, in
order to be licensed as a journeyman electrician, a person must have completed an
apprenticeship program of at least four years that is recognized by both the U.S.
Department of Labor (USDOL) and the Wisconsin Department of Workforce
Development (DWD), or must have had experience as an electrician for at least 60
months and have passed the DSPS examination. If the person will be licensed as a
residential journeyman electrician, the rules must provide that he or she needs to
have completed an apprenticeship program of at least three years or have a
minimum of 36 months of experience. The requirements for licensure as an
industrial journeyman electrician are promulgated as rules by the department.
This bill eliminates the provision that the requirements for journeyman
electricians, other than residential journeyman electricians, must be established by
rule and incorporates the requirements for these journeyman electricians into the
statutes. The bill also makes changes to these requirements. Under the bill, the
minimum term for the apprenticeship program remains at four years, but a person
completing the apprenticeship program must also pass the DSPS examination.
Under the bill, the apprenticeship program need only be recognized by either
USDOL or DWD. Also, under the bill, the number of months of experience is reduced
to not less than 48 months of experience. During those 48 months, the person must
have 8,000 hours of experience. Under the bill, DSPS must accept a degree from a
two−year program in electrical engineering or a related program as partial credit
toward this experience. The statutory requirements established under the bill apply
only to persons who apply for journeyman electrician licenses after the bill becomes
law.
The bill repeals the provision specifying the requirements that must be
contained in the rules for residential journeyman electricians. Instead, the bill
requires that DSPS have rules in effect that establish requirements for residential
and industrial journeyman electricians.
Other electricians
This bill requires that DSPS have in place rules for the registration of electrical
apprentices, and the bill specifically authorizes DSPS to promulgate rules that
establish additional types and subtypes of electricians. Finally, the bill changes the
term beginning electrician" to registered electrician," and requires registered
electricians to be supervised by licensed journeyman or master electricians.
Exemptions
Under current law, various types of electrical work need not be performed by
licensed electricians. This bill makes the following changes in relation to these
exemptions:

1. Current law exempts from this licensing requirement a person who repairs
or maintains electrical wiring within a facility or on premises that are owned or
leased by that person or that are owned or leased by an entity for which that person
is an agent. The bill adds language to this provision so as to specifically include an
employee of the entity under this exemption. The bill also creates a provision that
broadens this exemption to cover installation of electrical wiring in facilities that are
existing industrial or manufacturing facilities.

2. The bill makes changes to an exemption that covers the installation, repair,
and maintenance of equipment that provides a function that is not primarily
electrical in nature.

3. The bill creates a new exemption for the replacement of certain existing
switches or outlets.

4. This bill exempts from the licensing requirements electricians who were
born before January 1, 1955, and who have at least 15 years of experience in
performing electrical work. This bill also exempts a person from these licensing
requirements if the person is performing electrical work for a qualified nonprofit
corporation that consists of installing electrical wiring in a new one−family dwelling
and if the person is not being paid or is not receiving another type of compensation
for the work. Under the bill, a qualified nonprofit corporation is one that has as its
purpose the construction and rehabilitation of residential dwellings in a specific
community or area and has completed the construction of at least five new
one−family dwellings within the last 12 months.

Inspections
Under current law, DSPS must promulgate rules to establish standards and a
process for the inspection of electrical wiring. This bill prohibits DSPS from
promulgating a rule requiring inspections of electrical wiring that is installed,
maintained, or repaired as part of a project in an existing industrial facility or
existing manufacturing facility unless the project is required to be reviewed by DSPS
or by a municipality before the project is started.
For further information see the state and local fiscal estimate, which will be
printed as an appendix to this bill.
The people of the state of Wisconsin, represented in senate and assembly, do
enact as follows:
SECTION 1. 101.80 (1p) of the statutes is created to read:
101.80 (1p) Manufacturing facility" means a facility assessed as
manufacturing property under s. 70.995.

SECTION 2. 101.82 (1g) of the statutes is created to read:
101.82 (1g) Regulate all of the following types of electricians:
(a) Master electricians, including residential master electricians.
(b) Journeyman electricians, including residential journeyman electricians
and industrial journeyman electricians.
(c) Electrical apprentices, including residential electrical apprentices and
industrial electrical apprentices.
(d) Registered electricians.

SECTION 3. 101.82 (1m) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.82 (1m) Promulgate rules that establish criteria and procedures for the
registration enrollment of beginning registered electricians and for the examination
and licensing of different types of electricians, including journeymen electricians and
master electricians registration of electrical apprentices.

SECTION 4. 101.82 (1n) of the statutes is created to read:
101.82 (1n) Promulgate rules that establish procedures for the enrollment of
registered electricians, the registration of electrical apprentices, and the licensing
of journeyman electricians and master electricians.

SECTION 5. 101.82 (1r) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.82 (1r) Promulgate rules that establish requirements for the supervision
of beginning registered electricians. Registered electricians must be supervised by
licensed journeyman or master electricians.

SECTION 6. 101.82 (3r) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.82 (3r) Promulgate rules that establish criteria and a process for the
suspension or revocation of registrations issued to beginning registered electricians,
licenses issued to electricians and electrical contractors, and certifications issued to
electrical inspectors.

SECTION 7. 101.84 (3) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.84 (3) Promulgate rules to differentiate the scope of installation, repair, or
maintenance of electrical wiring that may be performed by electrical contractors and
by different types of electricians, including beginning, registered electricians,
journeymen journeyman electricians, and master electricians, and any additional
types of electricians recognized under sub. (5).


SECTION 8. 101.84 (5) of the statutes is created to read:
101.84 (5) The department may promulgate rules that recognize and regulate
different types and subtypes of electricians that are in addition to those specified in
s. 101.82 (1g) and that establish criteria and procedures for enrolling, registering, or
licensing these electricians.

SECTION 9. 101.862 (title) of the statutes, as affected by 2007 Wisconsin Act 63
and 2013 Wisconsin Act 4, is amended to read:
101.862 (title) License, or registration, or certification required.

10. 101.862 (2) of the statutes, as affected by 2007 Wisconsin Act 63
and 2013 Wisconsin Act 4, is amended to read:
101.862 (2) No person may install, repair, or maintain electrical wiring unless
the person is licensed as an electrician by the department or unless the person is
registered enrolled as a beginning registered electrician by the department.

SECTION 11. 101.862 (4) (am) of the statutes is created to read:
101.862 (4) (am) A person engaged in installing electrical wiring within an
existing industrial facility or existing manufacturing facility owned or leased by the
person or by an entity for which the person is an agent or employee.
SECTION 12. 101.862 (4) (b) of the statutes, as affected by 2007 Wisconsin Act
63 and 2013 Wisconsin Act 4, is amended to read:
101.862 (4) (b) A person engaged in maintaining or repairing electrical wiring
within a an existing facility or on premises owned or leased by the person or by an
entity for which the person is an agent or employee.
SECTION 13. 101.862 (4) (g) of the statutes, as affected by 2007 Wisconsin Act
63 and 2013 Wisconsin Act 4, is amended to read:


SECTION 13
101.862 (4) (g) A person engaged in installing, repairing, or maintaining
manufactured equipment or utilization equipment, including ballasts, electric signs,
and luminaires, or a any other manufactured system that is designed to provide a
function that is not primarily electrical in nature if the installation, repair, or
maintenance does not involve the modification or installation of branch circuit
conductors beyond the disconnecting point or beyond the last junction, pull, or device
box, whichever is nearer to the point where the person is performing the installation,
repair, or maintenance that are external to the manufactured or utilization
equipment or other manufactured system.

SECTION 14. 101.862 (4)  of the statutes is created to read:
101.862 (4)  A person who installs a replacement for an existing switch or
outlet located in a dwelling unit, as defined in s. 101.61 (1), if the replacement switch
or outlet has a rating of not more than 20 amperes.

15. 101.862 (5) of the statutes is created to read:
101.862 (5) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to a person who was born on
or before January 1, 1955, and who has at least 15 years of experience in installing,
repairing, or maintaining electrical wiring.

SECTION 16. 101.862 (6) of the statutes is created to read:
101.862 (6) (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to a person who installs
electrical wiring, without receiving payment or other consideration, in a new
one−family dwelling that is being constructed by a qualified nonprofit corporation.
(b) For purposes of par. (a), a qualified nonprofit corporation is one that meets
all of the following conditions:


1. The corporation is described in section 501 (c) (3) of the Internal Revenue
Code and is exempt from federal income tax under section 501 (a) of the Internal
Revenue Code.
2. The corporation has as its purpose the construction and rehabilitation of
residential dwellings in a specific community or area.
3. The corporation has completed the construction of at least 5 new one−family
dwellings within the specific community or area within the last 12 months.

SECTION 17. 101.868 of the statutes is created to read:
101.868 Requirements for master electricians. (1) An applicant for
licensure as a master electrician shall have at least one of the following
qualifications:
(a) A bachelor’s degree or master’s degree in electrical engineering, followed by
passage of an examination required by the department.
(b) Twelve months of experience in installing, repairing, and maintaining
electrical wiring while being licensed as a journeyman electrician, followed by
passage of an examination required by the department.
(c) Experience in installing, repairing, and maintaining electrical wiring
during a period of not less than 60 months, with at least 10,000 hours of experience
over that period, followed by passage of an examination required by the department.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any residential master electrician or to any
other type of master electrician that may be recognized under s. 101.84 (5). The
qualifying criteria required for licensing residential master electricians and any
other such type of master electrician shall be established by the department by rule.

SECTION 18. 101.87 (title) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.87 (title) Requirements for journeymen journeyman electricians.

SECTION 19. 101.87 (1) (intro.) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.87 (1) (intro.) The rules governing the licensing of journeymen electricians
under s. 101.82 (1m) shall require that an An applicant for licensure as a journeyman
electrician who is not a residential journeyman electrician shall have at least one of
the following qualifications:

SECTION 20. 101.87 (1) (a) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.87 (1) (a) Completion of an apprenticeship program in installing,
repairing, and maintaining electrical wiring that has a duration of at least 4 years
and that is approved by the U.S. department of labor and or by the department of
workforce development, followed by passage of an examination required by the
department.

SECTION 21. 101.87 (1) (b) of the statutes is amended to read:
101.87 (1) (b) Experience in installing, repairing, and maintaining electrical
wiring for at least 60 during a period of not less than 48 months and, with at least
8,000 hours of experience over that period, followed by passage of an examination
required by the department.

SECTION 22. 101.87 (2m) and (3m) of the statutes are created to read:
101.87 (2m) For purposes of meeting the requirement relating to experience
under sub. (1) (b), a degree or diploma from a 2−year program in a school of electrical
engineering or from a 2−year program in an accredited technical or vocational school
in an electrical−related program shall be accepted by the department as being
equivalent to 12 months and 2,000 hours of experience.
(3m) Subsection (1) does not apply to any residential or industrial journeyman
electricians or to any other type of journeyman electrician that may be recognized
under s. 101.84 (5). The qualifying criteria required for licensing residential and
industrial journeyman electricians and any other such type of journeyman
electrician shall be established by the department by rule.

SECTION 23. 101.87 (5) of the statutes is repealed.

24. 101.874 of the statutes is created to read:
101.874 Reciprocity. (1) In this section, credential" means a registration,
license, certification, or other approval to perform or inspect electrical work.
(2) The department may enter into a reciprocal agreement with another state
under which credentials issued to electricians, electrical apprentices, electrical
contractors, and electrical inspectors by either state are recognized as comparable
credentials by the other state. Under the agreement, the department may recognize
credentials from the other state only if the education, experience, and examination
requirements in the other state are at least equivalent to the education, experience,
and examination requirements for being issued credentials under this subchapter.
(3) Upon entering into an agreement under this section, the department may
issue a credential only if all of the following apply:
(a) The individual seeking the credential submits an application and pays the
applicable fee established under s. 101.82 (4).
(b) The individual holds a valid comparable credential issued by the other state.

SECTION 26. 101.875 (2) of the statutes is created to read:
101.875 (2) Any rule promulgated under s. 101.82 (2m) may not require the
inspection of any of the installation, repair, or maintenance of electrical wiring
within an existing industrial facility or an existing manufacturing facility unless the
plan for the installation, repair, or maintenance is required to be examined under s.
101.12 (2) by the department or by a municipality that has its examinations accepted
by the department under s. 101.12 (3) (a), (am), or (b).

SECTION 27. 101.88 (2) of the statutes is renumbered 101.875 (1) and amended
to read:
101.875 (1) All inspections of electrical wiring shall be made performed by
persons inspectors certified by the department.

SECTION 28.0Initial applicability.
(1) The treatment of sections 101.868 and 101.87 (title), (1) (intro.), (a), and (b),
(2m), (3m), and (5) of the statutes first applies to persons applying for licenses on the
effective date of this subsection.

SECTION 29.0Effective dates. This act takes effect on the day after publication,
except as follows:
(1) The treatment of sections 101.80 (1p) and 101.862 (title), (2), (4) (am), (b),
(g), and , (5), and (6) of the statutes takes effect on April 1, 2014, or on the day after publication, whichever is later.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Seriously. All the young guys who could never compete with the years of experience are just trying to level the playing field by forcing government controls on business. Free the market.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Ultrafault said:


> Yes.


No. :laughing:

Passing a test will not make them better at anything other than passing a test. The scrap of paper does not provide any additional practical knowledge or experience.

If anything, additional testing will just force some folks out of the workplace since, like any bureaucratic interference in the marketplace, there is a point where it is not worth the effort.

So this is a job killer and should be stopped.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

If we keep up this bickering Peter may start to belive there actually are two people in Missouri.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> If we keep up this bickering Peter may start to belive there actually are two people in Missouri.


:laughing::thumbup:


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

rewire said:


> How? Will a test make him faster? A test is just a test. Someone can study for the test and not have any practical skill.





eejack said:


> Seriously. All the young guys who could never compete with the years of experience are just trying to level the playing field by forcing government controls on business. Free the market.





eejack said:


> No. :laughing:
> 
> Passing a test will not make them better at anything other than passing a test. The scrap of paper does not provide any additional practical knowledge or experience.
> 
> ...


Why have any sort of licensing? Practicing medicine, law, driving...let's let anyone do it...after all, passing a test doesn't mean anything.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

Our company owner is 76 yrs old. Started his business in the 70's and has had his masters almost as long. All our employees are either masters or journeymen. Most through a five year apprenticeship. The day I wrote my exam, I met an "electrician" that was there for his sixth time and I believe that he missed it again. So you older guys are saying maybe we should just grandfather him in because he had ten years experience? Crap! I hear the horror stories from our local inspectors about poor workmanship, code violations, and the " what the hell were they thinking" type of jobs. At least having the license will require continuing education to keep it and hopefully more code compliant installations. After all, the NEC is a safety manual. By the way, I passed the masters exam on my first attempt.


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## Big R (Jan 10, 2008)

Anybody think the licensing will increase pay in WI? Seems like wages are quite a bit lower there than neighboring Mn JWs.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

2dogs said:


> So you gonna need to take your masters? This law is being driven by the insurance companies. With liability claims the way it is they are going to want people licensed so they know that you have the necessary code knowledge to install properly.


Heard from a fairly direct source that the unions were lobbying for this one.
Wouldn't doubt if the insurance companies were involved though.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Big R said:


> Anybody think the licensing will increase pay in WI? Seems like wages are quite a bit lower there than neighboring Mn JWs.


There's a chance it might. It also will keep out electricians from neighboring states!!:laughing::laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Big R said:


> Anybody think the licensing will increase pay in WI? Seems like wages are quite a bit lower there than neighboring Mn JWs.


The labor laws are different between the two states and those laws result in lower wages for WI.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> Why have any sort of licensing? Practicing medicine, law, driving...let's let anyone do it...after all, passing a test doesn't mean anything.


Actually it really doesn't. Does passing a drivers exam mean you are a better driver or that you passed the exam? You really cannot say the former because accidents and fatalities remain. Bad doctors and lawyers abound, as do crappy licensed electricians.

Passing tests are easy. Trivial. So easy that stupid people you and I both know have done it, do it all the time, people you wouldn't let make a hot dog for your kids do it every day.

Don't confuse testing with competence.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually it really doesn't. Does passing a drivers exam mean you are a better driver or that you passed the exam? You really cannot say the former because accidents and fatalities remain. Bad doctors and lawyers abound, as do crappy licensed electricians.
> 
> Passing tests are easy. Trivial. So easy that stupid people you and I both know have done it, do it all the time, people you wouldn't let make a hot dog for your kids do it every day.
> 
> Don't confuse testing with competence.


Quit calling me stupid. I passed my Master's on the first try! I thought it was quite an accomplishment and now you kicked the cane right out from
under me!:laughing::laughing: Personally, I think inspection will do more for safety and to level the playing field than licensing will ever do.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I am not too suprised what the poiticals been doing in the white dome ( state capatiol ) and they been doing that stunt for last few years.

But for some reason I have a feeling that the white dome been find a way to pick up extra revenue due their budget shortfall ( don't ask me about their conneries ) and I been in France for a while so I still heard few things going on and their ink is not even dry in the print.

I Think they should rewrite someway to simplifed it instead of bunch of rouge( red ) tapes around.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The labor laws are different between the two states and those laws result in lower wages for WI.


I don't pay much attention to labor laws but what are the differences? Why aren't our electrical workers all fleeing to Mud Duck land for work??


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> I am not too suprised what the poiticals been doing in the white dome ( state capatiol ) and they been doing that stunt for last few years.
> 
> But for some reason I have a feeling that the white dome been find a way to pick up extra revenue due their budget shortfall ( don't ask me about their conneries ) and I been in France for a while so I still heard few things going on and their ink is not even dry in the print.
> 
> ...


Haven't you heard? We have a budget surplus and Scotty is talking of giving us some property tax relief.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> Quit calling me stupid. I passed my Master's on the first try! I thought it was quite an accomplishment and now you kicked the cane right out from
> under me!:laughing::laughing: Personally, I think inspection will do more for safety and to level the playing field than licensing will ever do.


I agree...Inspection and license enforcement, as well as better 'business' enforcement, ie. going after price gouging and payroll tax avoidance, would be better places to spend the effort. 

A well run honest business deserves to compete against other well run honest businesses and customers deserve to be able to hire them.

Legislate for that...:thumbup:


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Haven't you heard? We have a budget surplus and Scotty is talking of giving us some property tax relief.


No I did not heard that yet due I am in France and I do not know what their link related to the budget surplus if that is true or non.,,

Merci,
Marc


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I agree...Inspection and license enforcement, as well as better 'business' enforcement, ie. going after price gouging and payroll tax avoidance, would be better places to spend the effort.
> 
> A well run honest business deserves to compete against other well run honest businesses and customers deserve to be able to hire them.
> 
> Legislate for that...:thumbup:


Well, usually a well run honest business doesn't have to compete with a lot of other businesses, at least not out here in the country! I seldom bid against another contractor on my projects. If I was a larger shop going after the high end commercial projects, I'm sure it would be different.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

wendon said:


> Well, usually a well run honest business doesn't have to compete with a lot of other businesses, at least not out here in the country! I seldom bid against another contractor on my projects. If I was a larger shop going after the high end commercial projects, I'm sure it would be different.


I find the same thing. I very seldom bid against anyone on my jobs.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

eejack said:


> Actually it really doesn't. Does passing a drivers exam mean you are a better driver or that you passed the exam? You really cannot say the former because accidents and fatalities remain. Bad doctors and lawyers abound, as do crappy licensed electricians.
> 
> Passing tests are easy. Trivial. So easy that stupid people you and I both know have done it, do it all the time, people you wouldn't let make a hot dog for your kids do it every day.
> 
> Don't confuse testing with competence.


Don't confuse what I am stating either...

I never said testing makes you more competent. It does provide a basic set of qualifications...just like other licensing requirements.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> I never said testing makes you more competent. It does provide a basic set of qualifications...just like other licensing requirements.


I think a certain number of years on the job provides even more qualifications than the test. But that's just me.

Of course on the other hand, the test might hit upon subjects some individual might not have experience with. I've never wired a projector room or a gas station for instance. But I bet I could by consulting the code book and then having the work inspected.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> I think a certain number of years on the job provides even more qualifications than the test. But that's just me.
> 
> Of course on the other hand, the test might hit upon subjects some individual might not have experience with. I've never wired a projector room or a gas station for instance. But I bet I could by consulting the code book and then having the work inspected.


One of the biggest things in my opinion, is to learn to adapt to change. Technology is a great thing if you can learn how to use it. For instance, LED lighting is definitely the wave of the future but it brings a whole new set of challenges to adapt it. I'd like to encourage my son to learn PLC programming etc. because it's uses are only going to expand and to have that set of skills will be a plus. A lot of it is knowing what is available and knowing how to utilize it.


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## ren79eg (May 30, 2010)

Talked to one of the two state electrical inspectors the other day. Not Keevin but Kevin. The guy that used to inspect for city of Oshkosh. 
Anyway he made the comment that there were about 5,000 active licenses in the state last year. He also said over 11,000 people claimed to be "electricians" on their state taxes the same year. Fwiw


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

Does Wisconsin have any kind of electrical licensing now?


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Robert Thompson 6971 said:


> Does Wisconsin have any kind of electrical licensing now?



Wisconsin act 63 passed in 2008 requiring anybody doing electrical, (except homeowners) to have a license. Takes effect this April 1st.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

ren79eg said:


> Talked to one of the two state electrical inspectors the other day. Not Keevin but Kevin. The guy that used to inspect for city of Oshkosh.
> Anyway he made the comment that there were about 5,000 active licenses in the state last year. He also said over 11,000 people claimed to be "electricians" on their state taxes the same year. Fwiw


And that is the problem. We're talking 6000 people being thrown out of their careers with the stroke of a government pen. Beautiful.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

jrclen said:


> And that is the problem. We're talking 6000 people being thrown out of their career with the stroke of a government pen. Beautiful.


No they aren't. Study...take the test...pass test...get your license. If you fail, you can get a Beginner Electrician License until you pass the test. The JMan test isn't that difficult. 10% of the questions were out of the definitions alone. If you can't pass the JMan test, you shouldn't be out on your own.

As for your situation, it seems that you've been skirting the rules that were already in place or your local municipalities aren't enforcing those rules. I would be willing to bet that your situation is a rare one...a JMan doing business an an EC without anyone employed with a Master's License.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> And that is the problem. We're talking 6000 people being thrown out of their careers with the stroke of a government pen. Beautiful.


Wow! And I can't keep up the way it is! Wonder if Cletis is looking for work?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> No they aren't. Study...take the test...pass test...get your license.


After 30 some odd years in the business I have forgotten how to study.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

6000 people that can start doing it right by getting their license.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Roadking Classic said:


> 6000 people that can start doing it right by getting their license.


Or grandfather them in and go from there. It's not like houses are burning down and children are dying because of this issue. It's a typical lobbyist pushed law. Government desperately seeking solutions to problems which don't exist. :no:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

2dogs said:


> Wisconsin act 63 passed in 2008 requiring anybody doing electrical, (except homeowners) to have a license. Takes effect this April 1st.


It's Ex Dem. Gov. Jim Doyle's fault.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

2dogs said:


> Wisconsin act 63 passed in 2008 requiring anybody doing electrical, (except homeowners) to have a license. Takes effect this April 1st.


If I understand it correctly even home owners are affected. They can do minor repairs to existing circuits such as change out fixtures and devices but can no longer add or extend circuits. Nor remodel the basement or wire up the garage as they could in the past.

Of course they will simply shut the door, do the work, and forget about the building permit and inspection.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

jrclen said:


> If I understand it correctly even home owners are affected. They can do minor repairs to existing circuits such as change out fixtures and devices but can no longer add or extend circuits. Nor remodel the basement or wire up the garage as they could in the past. Of course they will simply shut the door, do the work, and forget about the building permit and inspection.



http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2007/related/acts/63.pdf

Here is the whole electrical act. It is only 5 pages long.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

2dogs said:


> http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2007/related/acts/63.pdf
> 
> Here is the whole electrical act. It is only 5 pages long.


That is instering infomation to read.

Merci,
Marc


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

frenchelectrican said:


> That is instering infomation to read. Merci, Marc



votre accueil


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## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

2dogs said:


> votre accueil


hehe you have to say bienvenue not votre acceuil!!:laughing:


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Mate said:


> hehe you have to say bienvenue not votre acceuil!!:laughing:



Lol! I'm just a dumb farm kid from Wisconsin. I looked up your welcome in French on google and that's what it said. It's on the internet so it's got to be true!


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## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Lol! I'm just a dumb farm kid from Wisconsin. I looked up your welcome in French on google and that's what it said. It's on the internet so it's got to be true!


Well you are less dumb than yesterday since you learned a little bit of french today!:thumbsup:


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

ren79eg said:


> Talked to one of the two state electrical inspectors the other day. Not Keevin but Kevin. The guy that used to inspect for city of Oshkosh. Anyway he made the comment that there were about 5,000 active licenses in the state last year. He also said over 11,000 people claimed to be "electricians" on their state taxes the same year. Fwiw


I wonder how many of that 6000 are apprentices and helpers?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

or in-house electricians


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Could be worse men, you could be having to take the Minnesota masters test! I studied for four months to pass that one. 83 percent failure rate for the masters, 73 percent for the journeyman. Out of the three masters tests I've taken Wisconsin was the easiest. Iowa masters test was a prometric. Minnesota was the hardest by far. There was talk in Minnesota of making the masters retest every seven years.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Deep Cover said:


> or in-house electricians


In house electricians have to be licensed also. I called the state to see if the law applied to our in house guys and we were told yes. That's why they now have the industrial journeyman license. The only people that don't have to be licensed are homeowners. Their house has to be wired by an electrical contractor when built new, but after that they can screw up all the wiring they want.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Get all the electrical contractor associations together on this and get an attorney to file a class action law suit requesting the state to grandfather all legitimate electricians that have been in business for 3 years (or whatever time frame). 

It's been done successfully. You have rights, they just can't put you out of business because they decide to enact a electrical licensing policy.


...or just go take test.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

2dogs said:


> Lol! I'm just a dumb farm kid from Wisconsin. I looked up your welcome in French on google and that's what it said. It's on the internet so it's got to be true!


 
2dogs.,

here the correct word for you are welcome in French.

Vous êtes bienvenu.

Merci,
Marc 

P.S becarefull with goggle translator sometime they never be correct especally between the Quebec and Parisian verison both are not the same.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

2dogs said:


> In house electricians have to be licensed also. I called the state to see if the law applied to our in house guys and we were told yes. That's why they now have the industrial journeyman license. The only people that don't have to be licensed are homeowners. Their house has to be wired by an electrical contractor when built new, but after that they can screw up all the wiring they want.


I understand that, but before mandatory licensing, no license was required to call yourself an electrician.


----------



## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

I wish Michigan would post our pass/fail rates; I would be _very_ curious to see that. 

I know Texas posts their rates, and I was pretty shocked how bad they were.

http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricians/2012 ELC exams.pdf


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

flyboy said:


> Get all the electrical contractor associations together on this and get an attorney to file a class action law suit requesting the state to grandfather all legitimate electricians that have been in business for 3 years (or whatever time frame). It's been done successfully. You have rights, they just can't put you out of business because they decide to enact a electrical licensing policy. ...or just go take test.



The problem with that is there is support for this bill. The unions want licensing because it will drive the unlicensed guys out of business thus freeing up more work for their guys on the books. Big contractors both union and non union support it for the same reason. Insurance underwriters are also pushing for this to reduce claims. The unlicensed electrician really doesn't have a lobbying group. What would the selling point be? Hire us we can't pass the state test?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

flyboy said:


> Get all the electrical contractor associations together on this and get an attorney to file a class action law suit requesting the state to grandfather all legitimate electricians that have been in business for 3 years (or whatever time frame).
> 
> It's been done successfully. You have rights, they just can't put you out of business because they decide to enact a electrical licensing policy.
> 
> ...


There were already rules that made it so EC's needed to employ a licensed Master before this.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

2dogs, I only see 1 dog...(actually more like ½ a dog).


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Deep Cover said:


> I understand that, but before mandatory licensing, no license was required to call yourself an electrician.


. Sorry I thought you ment in house electricians didn't need licensing. I see you were responding to my post about the 6000. I agree, there would be quite a few of those in the 6000 number. My bad!


----------



## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Michigan Master said:


> 2dogs, I only see 1 dog...(actually more like ½ a dog).


That was my Indian name given to me by the first journeyman I worked for. It is part of an old joke. My full nickname was 2 dogs f---ing!


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

2dogs said:


> That was my Indian name given to me by the first journeyman I worked for. It is part of an old joke. My full nickname was 2 dogs f---ing!


Is that because you F'd things up all the time or because you're Indian.?


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Robert Thompson 6971 said:


> Is that because you F'd things up all the time or because you're Indian.?


. Uuuuum


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Robert Thompson 6971 said:


> Is that because you F'd things up all the time or because you're Indian.?



The first one. I'm sure you have never hazed a young dumb helper! I know I have!


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

And guys quit your damn belly aching. TAKE THE DAMN TEST.... If you're are good electrician and know your stuff you shouldn't have a problem passing that. Test.... I have to retake my Journeymans test because my license had been expired over a year... after they told me several times there wasn't any time limit


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

2dogs said:


> The first one. I'm sure you have never hazed a young dumb helper! I know I have!


Lol.... i had plenty of young dumb helpers.... some turned out good some still dumb as you know what


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

jrclen said:


> Or grandfather them in and go from there. It's not like houses are burning down and children are dying because of this issue. It's a typical lobbyist pushed law. Government desperately seeking solutions to problems which don't exist. :no:


Or they could take the test and prove that they know whats actually in the code book.


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

If you guys don't have any licensing do you just wire things how you want to.... do you have an inspector and is he licensed


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> If I understand it correctly even home owners are affected. They can do minor repairs to existing circuits such as change out fixtures and devices but can no longer add or extend circuits. Nor remodel the basement or wire up the garage as they could in the past.
> 
> Of course they will simply shut the door, do the work, and forget about the building permit and inspection.


Actually the HO will be able to pull a permit and do their own wiring if they're remodeling the home they're living in. That's about the limit.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

2dogs said:


> The problem with that is there is support for this bill. The unions want licensing because it will drive the unlicensed guys out of business thus freeing up more work for their guys on the books. Big contractors both union and non union support it for the same reason. Insurance underwriters are also pushing for this to reduce claims. The unlicensed electrician really doesn't have a lobbying group. What would the selling point be? Hire us we can't pass the state test?


Funny thing is, we have little to no union electricians in our area and most of the shops have at least one Master's. Most of the owners are Masters and have been for some time.


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> As far as I know, it is state law that only home owners or master electricians can pull permits. So, if you own your own one-man-shop, you should already be required to hold a masters license.
> 
> Also, IIRC, journeymen are already required to be under the supervision of a master. I am at work now, but when I get off, I'll check SPS, unless one of the other guys get to it first.


Permits are currently only required in municipalities that have an inspection process in place. It is up to the municipality to decide whether or not licensing is required. This new law will REQUIRE licensing.It will NOT require permits or inspections. If you do not hold a Master license you cannot pull a permit anywhere in WI that requires a permit. You can still do maintenance work on existing systems and utilization equipment. You will not be able to lawfully install new wiring. Enforcement will be an issue so if you are working in a rural location there is very little chance that a complaint will be filed. I fully support this new law in its entirety. I have been working as an Electrician since 1980. The first buzz of a licensing requirement actually started in the early 1990's so that is when I studied, wrote and passed my masters exam. Age is no excuse for not being licensed. You have had your whole life to write the exam and you were informed back in 2007 that this requirement was going to be enacted.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

Only four weeks until this hopefully goes into affect. :thumbsup: Make sure you WI guys are calling your goverment people and letting them know this "new" law (six years old) needs to go through without the grandfathering clause.


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

Roadking Classic said:


> Only four weeks until this hopefully goes into affect. :thumbsup: Make sure you WI guys are calling your goverment people and letting them know this "new" law (six years old) needs to go through without the grandfathering clause.


The law cannot be amended again, it was passed by the senate and is sitting on Governor Walkers desk. It will either be passed as is or vetoed.
If the governor veto's the new law it could than be ammended by the legislature and go thru the whole process again. We need it passed as is ASAP.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

markspark said:


> The law cannot be amended again, it was passed by the senate and is sitting on Governor Walkers desk. It will either be passed as is or vetoed.
> If the governor veto's the new law it could than be ammended by the legislature and go thru the whole process again. We need it passed as is ASAP.


All you have to do to kill the bill is tell Walker the unions like it, then bang dead bill.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Isn't Walker part of the state workers union eejack? ~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

markspark said:


> The law cannot be amended again, it was passed by the senate and is sitting on Governor Walkers desk. It will either be passed as is or vetoed.
> If the governor veto's the new law it could than be ammended by the legislature and go thru the whole process again. We need it passed as is ASAP.


Who is "we"? Why is this so urgent to you and how will it affect you? I've got more work than I can handle the way it is. I don't know of any shops in our area that don't have a Master's working for them. The only thing this will probably do is result in a whole lot of small, one-hour jobs for HVAC and plumbing contractors. If you're looking for those type, I'll be glad to send them your way.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> All you have to do to kill the bill is tell Walker the unions like it, then bang dead bill.


Ha Ha. Scotty isn't that dumb, he already knows that the union badly wants this bill to pass. It's not his bill, it's Jimmy Doyle's project. The crazy thing with the whole situation is we still aren't ready for this bill. How are we going to get our projects inspected when there isn't an inspection program in place? We're supposed to have state-wide inspection by this time. The sad thing is, the UDC guys have a hard time making it up here, how are the commercial electrical inspectors going to make it??


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

I've been an electrician in Wi. Since 79 passed the test in 11 don't think it will help anything cause every time gov. Try's to fix something they always make it worse.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Galt said:


> I've been an electrician in Wi. Since 79 passed the test in 11 don't think it will help anything cause every time gov. Try's to fix something they always make it worse.


There are legitimate concerns on how this will be enforced. I do know, an EC who is found in violations will face some heavy fines.

Now, as for the union talk, maybe to unions do want it, but that doesn't mean it is bad. I think it's good. I'm in favor of mandatory licensing. I think it's right in line with Gov Walker's motto of "Open For Business". This is a first step toward reciprocity with neighboring states.


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

Any electrician in WI, union or merit shop that does not back mandatory licensing should be suspect. Comments like "I already have more work than I can handle" are in fact agreeing that this bill will benefit our industry. Legitimate shops that are compliant will now be able to pass on the added cost of continuing education. This added cost has hurt my business in SW WI because un licensed shops can work more profitably than licensed shops. This is why people are complaining, they will now have to spend more money, time and resources on education and many will now have to go shopping for licensed electricians. In short shops that have listened and are compliant will immediately benefit.:thumbsup:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Why would anyone want the government regulating their industry. The free market should be what regulates business. If you look to government to make you profitable then your business model is in need of a closer look


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

markspark said:


> because un licensed shops can work more profitably than licensed shops.


Finally an honest remark.


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

Good Grief.


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

rewire said:


> Why would anyone want the government regulating their industry. The free market should be what regulates business. If you look to government to make you profitable then your business model is in need of a closer look


Who can argue with stupidity.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> Why would anyone want the government regulating their industry. The free market should be what regulates business. If you look to government to make you profitable then your business model is in need of a closer look


They should also stop regulating drugs, automobiles, financial institutions, hospitals, crime, utilities, rf communications, hazardous waste, workplace safety.

I can think of no examples where any of those things have been horrible in the past and are now better.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

rewire said:


> Why would anyone want the government regulating their industry. The free market should be what regulates business. If you look to government to make you profitable then your business model is in need of a closer look


How is our trade not regulated mandatory licensing or not?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> How is our trade not regulated mandatory licensing or not?


It is not as far as the business side. In non license states anyone can go into business . All licensing does is add a layer of bureaucracy when it is not needed. It also gives a false sense of security to the client . The guy who makes 70 on the test gets the same license as the guy who aces it.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

rewire said:


> It is not as far as the business side. In non license states anyone can go into business . All licensing does is add a layer of bureaucracy when it is not needed. It also gives a false sense of security to the client . The guy who makes 70 on the test gets the same license as the guy who aces it.


Sure it is. All legitimate business is...whether it be taxes, licenses, permits.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> They should also stop regulating drugs, automobiles, financial institutions, hospitals, crime, utilities, rf communications, hazardous waste, workplace safety.
> 
> I can think of no examples where any of those things have been horrible in the past and are now better.


a license serves no purpose other than a revenue stream for government. A license does not a better electrician make. If people would do their own due diligence they would not need the nanny state to take care of them . I prefer the free market over government regulation. Name anything government has got right. I am not ready to seed control of my business to the government even when it is packaged as "good" for me.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> Sure it is. All legitimate business is...whether it be taxes, licenses, permits.


taxes are not regulating that is taxing same as permits. Licensing is only a regulation when it requires more than money to acquire it otherwise it is simply a backdoor tax. A regulation comes in the form of telling business how they can operate . Telling someone they could not get a business license unless they had a store front would be regulating.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

markspark said:


> Who can argue with stupidity.


that is why I wont argue with you


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## markspark (Dec 24, 2012)

rewire said:


> a license serves no purpose other than a revenue stream for government. A license does not a better electrician make. If people would do their own due diligence they would not need the nanny state to take care of them . I prefer the free market over government regulation. Name anything government has got right. I am not ready to seed control of my business to the government even when it is packaged as "good" for me.


What does a license have to do with a free market? Get a grip on reality. Do you drive a car without a drivers license and a license plate? You must because that would be an infringement on your rights. What a bunch of bull.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> a license serves no purpose other than a revenue stream for government. A license does not a better electrician make. If people would do their own due diligence they would not need the nanny state to take care of them . I prefer the free market over government regulation. Name anything government has got right. I am not ready to seed control of my business to the government even when it is packaged as "good" for me.


It's not for you it is for the consumer. I have worked to long in a area where there is no licensing or inspections to think it makes things better or safer for anyone.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

markspark said:


> What does a license have to do with a free market? Get a grip on reality. Do you drive a care without a drivers license and a license plate? You must because that would be an infringement on your rights. What a bunch of bull.
> Go away.


the liberal is strong with this one:whistling2:


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Ultrafault said:


> It's not for you it is for the consumer. I have worked to long in a area where there is no licensing or inspections to think it makes things better or safer for anyone.


Lots of houses burning down and children dying are there? Licensing by government in general is just another solution desperately seeking a problem. Like those states seeking to give drivers licenses to illegals, claiming the number of accidents will somehow be lowered. Fuzzy logic.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> It's not for you it is for the consumer. I have worked to long in a area where there is no licensing or inspections to think it makes things better or safer for anyone.


this is where the customer needs to check up on their contractor. We work in an area that has no license requirements I don't see the quality of work changing if license were required. a bad electrician passes a license test he is still a bad electrician.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I can't believe I agree with Rewire on something.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

I can think of electrical fires started here. And I can remember a child killed by a miswired dock. These things happen everywhere. I don't see why people are so afraid of a test. If a license requires you to take a test you then must have some level of education, acquired either through studying or formaly. If education is not worth something then do you then think that children should not go to school or college? Would you let a doctor work on you with no education? Or a nurse? 
Did you perform due diligence and call the school that issued your doctors diploma? Are you aware that high as 2% of medical diplomas are fake? For better or worse we rely on our institutions to protect us from fraud. It is not reasonable to expect people to make a millions calls or even know who to call to protect themselves.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> I can think of electrical fires started here. And I can remember a child killed by a miswired dock. These things happen everywhere. I don't see why people are so afraid of a test. If a license requires you to take a test you then must have some level of education, acquired either through studying or formaly. If education is not worth something then do you then think that children should not go to school or college? Would you let a doctor work on you with no education? Or a nurse?
> Did you perform due diligence and call the school that issued your doctors diploma? Are you aware that high as 2% of medical diplomas are fake? For better or worse we rely on our institutions to protect us from fraud. It is not reasonable to expect people to make a millions calls or even know who to call to protect themselves.


you know what they call a doctor who graduates last in his class?


A doctor.

Most home electrical fires are not installation issues and the kids who died on the dock had nothing to do with miswiring or unlicensed electricians.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The government wants more of your money.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> The government wants *all* of your money.


fify


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

markspark said:


> What does a license have to do with a free market? Get a grip on reality. Do you drive a car without a drivers license and a license plate? You must because that would be an infringement on your rights. What a bunch of bull.


But, in reality, the license is only a piece of paper. Requiring an electrician to have the required hours of experience, training etc. BEFORE he can even write the test is probably the most valuable part of the license thing, correct? And then requiring CEU's to renew the license. I don't have a problem with requiring a license, just be sure you have all the necessary inspectors etc. lined up before you pull the trigger. As of now, Wisconsin doesn't have this.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

rewire said:


> a license serves no purpose other than a revenue stream for government. A license does not a better electrician make. If people would do their own due diligence they would not need the nanny state to take care of them . I prefer the free market over government regulation. Name anything government has got right. I am not ready to seed control of my business to the government even when it is packaged as "good" for me.


Would you let me do gall bladder surgery on you? I've got a new one of these!:thumbsup:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

wendon said:


> Would you let me do gall bladder surgery on you? I've got a new one of these!:thumbsup:


I need three references from people you have done similar surgeries .:whistling2:


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

rewire said:


> I need three references from people you have done similar surgeries .:whistling2:


I will vouch for him.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Interesting thinking. If a license was a guarantee of a good job and high skills, why are there so many malpractice cases by doctors? So many accidents on the highways? So many perch who manage to get off the hook?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

jrclen said:


> Interesting thinking. If a license was a guarantee of a good job and high skills, why are there so many malpractice cases by doctors? So many accidents on the highways? So many perch who manage to get off the hook?


Your to old to be waxing philosophic about these things. 
We all know there are no guarantees in this life.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Yes, you're right. I'm just pointing out the obvious. And taking a poke at the main argument being used here in favor of more government control.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

Maybe the kid didn't die from the handy hacks wiring of the boat hoist but it sure messed him up for awhile. HO from Chi town had a relative wire up his hoist and shorted the hot to the equipment. Unfortunately the ground rod he pounded in at the lake didn't complete the grounding circuit and open the ocpd. I guess the fish floating around the shore station should have given it away. IMO, this never would have happened with a licensed electrician.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Roadking Classic said:


> ... Unfortunately the ground rod he pounded in at the lake didn't complete the grounding circuit and open the ocpd. ...


No one should ever expect that a ground rod will do that. Ground rods do nothing to prevent shock hazards.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

That's one of the problems with these so called "electricians". They have no clue and people get hurt. I understand that its not happening all the time. But one kid hurt or family member lost is to much. Educated electricians is one way to prevent these senseless acts from happening. Without mandatory licensing, what is going to force these guys into continuing education classes and expanding their knowledge into recognizing the hazards associated with their trade.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Roadking Classic said:


> Unfortunately the ground rod he pounded in at the lake didn't complete the grounding circuit and open the ocpd.





Roadking Classic said:


> That's one of the problems with these so called "electricians". They have no clue and people get hurt.


I don't want to cast aspersions or to start an argument, but these two statements don't go well together.


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## ren79eg (May 30, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. Well I hope it was.


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

It appears to be that way.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

ren79eg said:


> I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. Well I hope it was.


Oh of course it was.  Road King is a fellow Harley Rider and a fellow licensed electrician. :thumbsup:


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Hey guys, I was just on the Wisconsin Commerce Department web site checking on taking the Master exam. I ran across something really strange in the Residential Master Electrician rules.

Requirements of Credential:
The electrical wiring activities that may be undertaken by a person who holds a license or registration as a licensed Residential Master Electrician shall be limited to wiring associated with dwellings, dwelling units and detached accessory buildings and structures serving the dwellings or the dwelling units, such as garages, carports, gazebos and swimming pools. A licensed Residential
*Master Electrician may perform electrical wiring not associated with dwellings and dwelling units, provided the person is under the direct supervision of a licensed Master Electrician or a licensed Journeyman Electrician.*

I am already a licensed Journeyman Electrician. So if I get my residential master license, will I be able to supervise myself on commercial work? :blink:


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## Roadking Classic (Apr 15, 2013)

I see your point. I guess that would be true as long as there is still a Master employed by the company pulling the permit. Let me know where your supervising yourself and I'll ride the scoot down and supervise the two of you. I think the state should clairify that one a little more. I'm just waiting for the 1st to get here and see if this is actually going through this time.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Roadking Classic said:


> Let me know where your supervising yourself and I'll ride the scoot down and supervise the two of you.


Great idea, and we'll get the Journeyman half of me to buy lunch for us. :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> Great idea, and we'll get the Journeyman half of me to buy lunch for us. :laughing:


Why don't you just write the Master's? They changed the required years/hours of experience needed for the Master's license.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> Great idea, and we'll get the Journeyman half of me to buy lunch for us. :laughing:


Roses are red, violets are blue
You're schizophrenic and so are you. :laughing::laughing:


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

wendon said:


> Why don't you just write the Master's? They changed the required years/hours of experience needed for the Master's license.


I don't think I can pass that one in the time allotted. I could try I suppose. I have plenty of years and hours, that's not a problem. 98% of the work I do now is new residential construction. The little commercial I do is virtually all remodeling and I would not mind at all giving that away.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrclen said:


> I don't think I can pass that one in the time allotted. I could try I suppose. I have plenty of years and hours, that's not a problem. 98% of the work I do now is new residential construction. The little commercial I do is virtually all remodeling and I would not mind at all giving that away.


I see. If I was you I'd still go ahead and try for the Masters. After the initial cost it doesn't cost that much to retake the test. I don't consider myself all that code savvy but I passed it on the first try. Just my own preference but I'd rather not do all residential work.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Maybe I should at least give it a try.


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