# 3 phase 208/120 service



## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

I have a building that has an existing single phase service for everything currently in the building. I need to add a 3 phase 208/120 service strictly for one piece of equipment that has heating elements and two small motors (.25 hp). It requires one 150A circuit. I was told the best bet would be to just come right off the meter and terminate into a 200 amp fused disconnect and fuse it down to 150 and feed the control panel from that. Does that sound right? I thought I'd have to terminate into a 200 amp load center and then pull the 150 amps from that through a 150 amp breaker. Although I've not seen breakers this size for a standard 200 amp load center. Any suggestions for this project? It is for brewing equipment. Strictly heating elements and the fore mentioned motors and control circuits.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

SlateTown said:


> I have a building that has an existing single phase service for everything currently in the building. I need to add a 3 phase 208/120 service strictly for one piece of equipment that has heating elements and *two small motors (.25 hp).* It requires one 150A circuit. *I was told the best bet would be to just come right off the meter and terminate into a 200 amp fused disconnect and fuse it down to 150 and feed the control panel from that. *Does that sound right? I thought I'd have to terminate into a 200 amp load center and then pull the 150 amps from that through a 150 amp breaker. Although I've not seen breakers this size for a standard 200 amp load center. Any suggestions for this project? It is for brewing equipment. Strictly heating elements and the fore mentioned motors and control circuits.


Who told you that?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Do you have room for a 200 amp meter main?


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

Another electrician told me that and yes there's room for a 200A Main.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If the utility and AHJ allows more than one service, I'd come off the meter into a fused disconnect and to the machine. No need for a load center.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

telsa said:


> Who told you that?


I'm not seeing a problem with it ??


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

SlateTown said:


> I have a building that has an existing single phase service for everything currently in the building. I need to add a 3 phase 208/120 service strictly for one piece of equipment that has heating elements and two small motors (.25 hp). It requires one 150A circuit. I was told the best bet would be to just come right off the meter and terminate into a 200 amp fused disconnect and fuse it down to 150 and feed the control panel from that. Does that sound right? I thought I'd have to terminate into a 200 amp load center and then pull the 150 amps from that through a 150 amp breaker. Although I've not seen breakers this size for a standard 200 amp load center. Any suggestions for this project? It is for brewing equipment. Strictly heating elements and the fore mentioned motors and control circuits.


Three phase load enters are expensive for some reason.
I think I like the idea of using a fused disconnect.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

emtnut said:


> I'm not seeing a problem with it ??


There is no problem with using a load center. But someone told him he MUST use a load center and breaker. Simply untrue.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> There is no problem with using a load center. But someone told him he MUST use a load center and breaker. Simply untrue.


I thought he was questioning the fused disconnect !

sorry ... carry on :whistling2:


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

Yes I was questioning wether or not the disconnect would be a good idea with the small motors


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Yes I was questioning wether or not the disconnect would be a good idea with the small motors


There has to be a fuse or breaker inside the machine for the motors.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

This is a complex situation.

Plan A: re-wire the gear to accept single-phase power. 

The fractional horsepower motors figure to be single-phase, BTW.

Then merely bump the Service up from 200A to 320A.

Plan B: Heavy-up the Service to 200A 208Y120

This option requires a Poco that's happy to price it cheap. 

Be sure to be sitting down when the Poco's fee is revealed.

Plan C: tell the factory to ship a single-phase unit... and accept the current unit as a return.

&&&

The typical novice brewer is wholly unprepared to shell out the big bucks required to jump to three-phase... just for a single hunk of gear.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

telsa said:


> This is a complex situation.
> 
> Plan A: re-wire the gear to accept single-phase power.
> 
> ...


Equipment is already purchased and requires 3 phase. So you're telling me the utility co charges a lot for a 3 phase hook up? Just to go from the Xfmr to my weather head? Which is about 20'.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Equipment is already purchased and requires 3 phase. So you're telling me the utility co charges a lot for a 3 phase hook up? Just to go from the Xfmr to my weather head? Which is about 20'.


Ya the POCO can charge a bit for bring in the three phase supply.

If ya have the three phase utility POCO line right there then it is not too bad on pricewise.,, 

but a nice gotcha some case if you going use 208Y120 supply you may have to ditch the single phase supply so kinda prepare to changeover the single phase panel to work off from three phase supply.

The main moot is the transfomer on POCO side they will have to add one more can for open delta side or two more for wye connection so that something you have to deal with POCO and see what they are charging for that. 

If that is in resdentail area the chance of finding three phase supply is kinda pretty tight all it depending on the grid on POCO side and if they are willing to bring it to that location.

If on commercal side it may get lucky in most case due majorty of larger commercal customer useally get three phase supply anyway.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Just curious, what used to be in the building before it was a brewery?


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

splatz said:


> Just curious, what used to be in the building before it was a brewery?


It's been many things. Currently it's a store but they are moving out. Code allows for two service drops if they are different voltages. Hopefully POCO allows it. There is 3 phase on the pole right next to the building. Not sure if the correct xfmr's are there or not though. Supposed to have a field visit soon.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> It's been many things. Currently it's a store but they are moving out. Code allows for two service drops if they are different voltages. Hopefully POCO allows it. There is 3 phase on the pole right next to the building. Not sure if the correct xfmr's are there or not though. Supposed to have a field visit soon.


Just take a photo of the transfomer one of us will pinpoint the answer on that photo.

then you will have a good chance you can snag in three phase supply on that. 

On the closed delta and wye POCO transfomer is always three transfomer cans .,, but if you see two there then it may be a open delta depending on second transformer is smaller than the single phase transfomer can.

My above comment is based on overhead lines but underground side it get like wild arse guess unless the POCO can confirm the info for your request.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

This might be a good opportunity to up sell them on a larger 3-phase service. If they plan on expanding and buying new machines in the future, they will have to do this all over again. They can save some money by just doing it now.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> This might be a good opportunity to up sell them on a larger 3-phase service. If they plan on expanding and buying new machines in the future, they will have to do this all over again. They can save some money by just doing it now.


I agree with ya on that statement and to OP this is one of the best methold you will have to do.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > It's been many things. Currently it's a store but they are moving out. Code allows for two service drops if they are different voltages. Hopefully POCO allows it. There is 3 phase on the pole right next to the building. Not sure if the correct xfmr's are there or not though. Supposed to have a field visit soon.
> ...


Here it is. The building is the grey one.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

SlateTown said:


> Here it is. The building is the grey one.


Assuming the POCO doesn't have to change the transformers due to load, it shouldn't cost much, if anything, for them to drop to your new service.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Here it is. The building is the grey one.


Akkk.,, ya got combo of single phase and *delta* overhead transfomer.

I am guessing ya got one of those 50 KVA pig ( overhead transfomer ) and other two probly 37 kva pigs .

that is closed delta system.

I dont know how much playroom ya there but talk to the POCO to see how much capaitcy they can open up before they change the transfomer on that set up.

You may have to set up a delta service drop beside keep the single phase supply if the POCO wont change the transfomer connection to wye.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

RePhase277 said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > Here it is. The building is the grey one.
> ...


That's what I wanted to hear!


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > Here it is. The building is the grey one.
> ...


Ok..that's NOT what I wanted to hear. Crap


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Ok..that's NOT what I wanted to hear. Crap


maybe and maybe not .,,

if your equiment can work with delta service then it should not be a issue on that. 

did someone give you the spec chart for that brewery machine to see what voltage and amps it need ?

it should mention what voltage supply it need to get it running proply. 

I know alot of them can work either Wye or Delta supply.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > Ok..that's NOT what I wanted to hear. Crap
> ...


I do not have the specs but was told 208.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Equipment is already purchased and requires 3 phase. So you're telling me the utility co charges a lot for a 3 phase hook up? Just to go from the Xfmr to my weather head? Which is about 20'.


Is this your first go round with a 3 phase service?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> I do not have the specs but was told 208.


Humm.,, just wait just talk to the POCO to see if they willing reconferation ( reconnected ) to Wye connection otherwise you may end up get B/B transfomer to downstep the voltage a little to work on 208 side. 

look like there is a customer using a single delta drop so I am not sure how that will affect that other customer but again talk to the POCO to see what they can do. 


Note; B/B means buck and boost transfomer in case ya reading that details.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

SlateTown said:


> frenchelectrican said:
> 
> 
> > SlateTown said:
> ...


Here is the control panel that it'll be feeding if that helps


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > Equipment is already purchased and requires 3 phase. So you're telling me the utility co charges a lot for a 3 phase hook up? Just to go from the Xfmr to my weather head? Which is about 20'.
> ...


I've worked on existing 3 phase plenty. Never installed.


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

A 3 pole 150 amp breaker is likely not available. Best choice is a fusible disconnect


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> Here is the control panel that it'll be feeding if that helps


Ahh gotcha.,,

alot of GFCI breakers Hummm.,, 

the buck boost transformer is pretty much out of the question.

talk to the POCO see if they willing to change the connection otherwise you may have to get delta wye transfomer to get good load useage on that.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Almost all 208 V 3-phase equipment will work on 240 V and vice versa. But it's best to check.

But there's another problem here. The GFCI breakers and the neutral. If you feed this with a delta high leg, something is going to smoke. Changing the POCO's delta transformers out will likely incur some serious expense, not to mention the fact that other customers are served from them.

But all is not lost. You can still do what you want, but you'll need to add a 240 to 208Y/120 transformer in between your new service and machine.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Rephase277 did bring up very good points on reguarding of delta system that is one of the major quriks with it. the wild leg is the key issue. 


Of course it may be better off buy 240Delta to 208Y120 volt transfomer this useally the best way you can do and I am assuming you can use either 50 or 75 KVA transfomer that will do the trick.

Keep in your mind the 75 Kva transfomer is kinda little more common than 50 KVA is. so you will have extra capacity in the system.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I think the reason the factory stated 120/208 is because of the GFI breakers. They will burn up if connected to the high leg of a ∆ system. 

I don't see any 3Ø loads at all, all are two pole plus the 2 single poles. See what the voltage rating on the heaters is. I'd bet it's 240. If so, I would see if a CH/CH 24 circuit single phase panel is available and if so, simply swap out the interior. 

Provided of course, that you can get a 200 amp single phase circuit to it. 

If all heaters are in the same tank, you can disconnect 2 of them if using 240 volts and get pretty close to the same heat with less than 200 amps, provided the controls will allow it. 

Around here, getting a 120/208 3Ø system in that location would be pretty spendy. They would leave the existing ∆ service as it is and set another pole to mount the Y bank on.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

micromind said:


> I think the reason the factory stated 120/208 is because of the GFI breakers. They will burn up if connected to the high leg of a ∆ system.
> 
> I don't see any 3Ø loads at all, all are two pole plus the 2 single poles. See what the voltage rating on the heaters is. I'd bet it's 240. If so, I would see if a CH/CH 24 circuit single phase panel is available and if so, simply swap out the interior.
> 
> ...


Great minds think alike.

My Poco is hostile to delta Services, to boot.

It would have no resistance to a 200A => 320A heavy-up, though.

Now that it's been revealed that this is a total demo and re-hab -- into a brewery -- the joint needs a Load Calc... on a fresh sheet of paper.

This is not a tiny budget project. The electrical end of a brewery -- even a micro-brewery -- is pitiful compared to the total investment.

Look past the, so-called, 'single piece of equipment.'

The dude probably needs the services of an EE, I'll bet.

It smells like he wants a micro brewery, cum restaurant.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

micromind said:


> I think the reason the factory stated 120/208 is because of the GFI breakers. They will burn up if connected to the high leg of a ∆ system.
> 
> I don't see any 3Ø loads at all, all are two pole plus the 2 single poles. See what the voltage rating on the heaters is. I'd bet it's 240. If so, I would see if a CH/CH 24 circuit single phase panel is available and if so, simply swap out the interior.
> 
> ...


I thought these guys that owned the brewing system before ordered it 3 phase and upgraded to 3 phase for a reason. But I agree, there's no 3 phase circuits so there's no advantage to having 3 phase service for this. I'm kind of confused why this was ordered 3 phase. Unless I'm missing something.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I am the kind of hack that might be tempted to get a single phase Cutler Hammer CH panel interior and swap it out.... But if someone did that, they'd have to be mindful of the fact that what was 150 amps on 3-phase 208 becomes 225 amps on single phase 240...


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

RePhase277 said:


> I am the kind of hack that might be tempted to get a single phase Cutler Hammer CH panel interior and swap it out.... But if someone did that, they'd have to be mindful of the fact that what was 150 amps on 3-phase 208 becomes 225 amps on single phase 240...


The company that built the panel explains it this way: there are eight 6000 watt elements. 4 each in two different tanks. Tanks can heat full power separately or if both are on at the same time it runs 3 in one and 4 in the other. And it says power requirement 150 amp 3 phase 240 or 208 OR 200 amp single phase 240. Obviously they build to one of those specs. I like the idea of swapping out to single phase and getting a bigger single phase entrance.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> I thought these guys that owned the brewing system before ordered it 3 phase and upgraded to 3 phase for a reason. But I agree, there's no 3 phase circuits so there's no advantage to having 3 phase service for this. I'm kind of confused why this was ordered 3 phase. Unless I'm missing something.


You need to ask questions of the person that ordered it and of the poco about your new supply side of things. 

Is there not a chance that they have other 3ph equipment coming in?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I admit I didn't read thru all of these posts but I would eliminate the existing single phase service and put in a 400 ampere I line 120/208 panel. Pretty sure my POCO would not give me both of those anyway. 
I line panel and 2 breakers is probably under $600.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> I admit I didn't read thru all of these posts but I would eliminate the existing single phase service and put in a 400 ampere I line 120/208 panel. Pretty sure my POCO would not give me both of those anyway.
> I line panel and 2 breakers is probably under $600.


From the looks of it what you propose here will require a new pole and transformers which I believe would be very costly. The existing pole is closed delta.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I very rarely do anything single phase but I bet you could get a 320 or 400 amp single phase meter-main that has 2 - 200 amp breakers.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> I very rarely do anything single phase but I bet you could get a 320 or 400 amp single phase meter-main that has 2 - 200 amp breakers.


SIEMENS MM0404L1400RLM - M/M COMBO 400A 4 CIRCUIT 

Less than $600


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> From the looks of it what you propose here will require a new pole and transformers which I believe would be very costly. The existing pole is closed delta.


He needs 208 three phase so something is going to have to change. He could also go with a 4 wire delta if the equip could take 240.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > From the looks of it what you propose here will require a new pole and transformers which I believe would be very costly. The existing pole is closed delta.
> ...


I don't need the 208 if I switch the control panel to single phase. Pole appears to be closed delta so it has a high leg which will fry the GFCI. I believe switch the panel to single phase and increasing the single phase capacity would be best?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> I don't need the 208 if I switch the control panel to single phase. Pole appears to be closed delta so it has a high leg which will fry the GFCI. I believe switch the panel to single phase and increasing the single phase capacity would be best?


As much as I usually push for 3Ø services, in this case, I think going to a 400 amp single phase service is best. 

Using the meter-main that Mech shows above will solve a lot of problems and very likely be the least expensive solution. Use one of the breakers for the new control panel and the other for a normal panel, maybe even the existing one. 

Swapping the existing 3Ø panel in the new machine for a single phase one will be pretty easy. It looks like the interior of a basic panel, not an OEM base, so it should be easy to get a single phase one.


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## SlateTown (Mar 3, 2017)

micromind said:


> SlateTown said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need the 208 if I switch the control panel to single phase. Pole appears to be closed delta so it has a high leg which will fry the GFCI. I believe switch the panel to single phase and increasing the single phase capacity would be best?
> ...


I get what they're doing with this meter box but it looks like I need some 200 amp breakers on the right side? Can I get those?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SlateTown said:


> I get what they're doing with this meter box but it looks like I need some 200 amp breakers on the right side? Can I get those?


You should able get the 200 amp breaker so when you order a new meter combo make sure you look at the order list what breaker you want so the factory can install the correct breaker for you. otherwise can change on the spot if need to be.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

By going with 2 services they may end up paying more per month on the electric bill.
XX per month per meter. The 400a 3p per kw may be on a different lower rate.

Using a fused disco it would need to be service rated.

While the equipment looks like it could be converted to 1P.
But your existing 1P service would still need to be updated.
Probably best not to rebuild their new equipment to avoid liability of any warranty issues.
Cause if it don't work right you'll be blamed.

The best way would be a new 3P service to replace the 1P.
They only have 1 meter.
The machine stays the same.
Their existing is replaced with new.
They can possibly add more 3P equipment later.
You make money.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

active1 said:


> By going with 2 services they may end up paying more per month on the electric bill.
> XX per month per meter. The 400a 3p per kw may be on a different lower rate.
> 
> Using a fused disco it would need to be service rated.
> ...


A CLEAN SHEET EE design is required ... as this is but the FIRST item going into what will be a substantial project.

It would not shock me if they -- the customer -- needs 400A 208Y120... that they intend to make the joint 'glow.'


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