# Will this surface mount panel meet code?



## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

It’s fine. NM is specifically allowed on the surface in residential.

As far as making it neat.. cable work is just really different than pipe work, you have to find your style. Personally, I like to lay my wire flat, so an uncoiler or 1000’ spools are my go to. I like to run wires at right angles as much as possible and use plenty of staples. 

In your situation I might be tempted to stub a piece of 2” PVC from the panel up to the floor joists and route all of the NM through it. That wasn’t specifically allowed until the 2017 code, but had been common practice for years.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Yeah i know... it's weird. That's how they do it where I'm at and it seems counterintuitive but in reality, if there's any real impact in that area that would harm the nm, there's probably more going on than conduit can do anything about. Of course, I'm relatively new to residential with about two years so far working at it seriously. Mostly i was industrial but even on military ships, a significant amount of the wiring is not in conduit.


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Dont know the local building codes, but I would space the backboard off the wall with 2x4s. 
That way there isn't a cold spot when they frame and insulate the basement. ( Vapor barrier too)


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

wcord said:


> Dont know the local building codes, but I would space the backboard off the wall with 2x4s.
> That way there isn't a cold spot when they frame and insulate the basement. ( Vapor barrier too)


Look a little closer. It does have 2x4's from the floor joists


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

jw0445 said:


> Look a little closer. It does have 2x4's from the floor joists


didnt see that when i first saw the post on my phone


----------



## 134sparky (Feb 27, 2014)

wcord said:


> didnt see that when i first saw the post on my phone


It is spaced about 2" off the foundation on 2x4s, hard to tell from the pic, sry.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I would actually frame that out and put a decent piece of plywood there so you have room for other equipment. Then insulate a vapour barrier. No reason to limit yourself to such a small area for your brother.

Cheers
John


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

why not drill a set of holes on each side of the panel and bring the wires down behind the board and out into the connectors?










I couldn't find a pic of a Canadian sideways panel lol


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Navyguy said:


> I would actually frame that out and put a decent piece of plywood there so you have room for other equipment. Then insulate a vapour barrier. No reason to limit yourself to such a small area for your brother.
> 
> Cheers
> John


i usually install a 3x4 or 4x4 sheet, painted grey. 
Room for telco crap


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Double check local codes, because the exposed NM cables are a violation here. Likely it is allowed there, but a quick call to the AHJ would settle it.


----------



## 134sparky (Feb 27, 2014)

joab said:


> It’s fine. NM is specifically allowed on the surface in residential.
> 
> As far as making it neat.. cable work is just really different than pipe work, you have to find your style. Personally, I like to lay my wire flat, so an uncoiler or 1000’ spools are my go to. I like to run wires at right angles as much as possible and use plenty of staples.
> 
> In your situation I might be tempted to stub a piece of 2” PVC from the panel up to the floor joists and route all of the NM through it. That wasn’t specifically allowed until the 2017 code, but had been common practice for years.


I did buy 1000 ft spools which definitely made it easy to run the romex. When you staple do you hammer down so that there is no movement at all in the romex? I'm just worried about pinching it so I only hammered it down enough to where it touches the outer sheathing but the romex still moves a little. I'm using those GB staples with white plastic.

The panel is a Homeline with their qwik grip(those two black pieces on the top of the panel) so I don't have to knock out and put connectors on. So I didn't plan on putting a sleeve into the panel. The qwik grips are towards the front of the panel so I'm thinking of mounting a 2x4 on the plywood above the panel to staple the wire to so it comes straight into the qwik grips and looks a little neater. Also it's hard to tell but some of the home runs come from above, which I ran down his 1st floor exterior wall, but about 2' back because his foundation is 2' thick so should I mount a 2x4 against the subfloor so I can also staple it horizontally between the joist?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wcord said:


> why not drill a set of holes on each side of the panel and bring the wires down behind the board and out into the connectors?
> 
> View attachment 152633
> 
> ...


That's the way I like to do it as well.


----------



## 134sparky (Feb 27, 2014)

wcord said:


> i usually install a 3x4 or 4x4 sheet, painted grey.
> Room for telco crap


That's a good point, I didn't think about the telephone/cable equipment. Thanks


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

OSB? Ewww. 🤢

I always use a nice, big piece of 5/8 plywood. Home Creepo will cut a 4 X 8 piece into two or three equal pieces and their fancy saw gives a nice cut.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

134sparky said:


> I did buy 1000 ft spools which definitely made it easy to run the romex. When you staple do you hammer down so that there is no movement at all in the romex? I'm just worried about pinching it so I only hammered it down enough to where it touches the outer sheathing but the romex still moves a little. I'm using those GB staples with white plastic.
> 
> The panel is a Homeline with their qwik grip(those two black pieces on the top of the panel) so I don't have to knock out and put connectors on. So I didn't plan on putting a sleeve into the panel. The qwik grips are towards the front of the panel so I'm thinking of mounting a 2x4 on the plywood above the panel to staple the wire to so it comes straight into the qwik grips and looks a little neater. Also it's hard to tell but some of the home runs come from above, which I ran down his 1st floor exterior wall, but about 2' back because his foundation is 2' thick so should I mount a 2x4 against the subfloor so I can also staple it horizontally between the joist?


As far as stapling it sounds like you got it just right. Neat and kept in place is all you need, "a little wiggle" is good.
Slamming the staples home will lead to trouble, even those cool insulated ones.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Even if I don't need the room, I always put in a 4 x 4 sheet if it will fit.










But sometimes you need the room because of our restrictions in going in the top.










I am not sure why that did not get turned sideways, It is an older pic and I think there is a conduit going into the panel through the back I think... or maybe it just would not fit sideways.

Cheers
John


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I never pound staples down tight. I always leave a bit of room so the cable doesn't get pinched.


----------



## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

wcord said:


> why not drill a set of holes on each side of the panel and bring the wires down behind the board and out into the connectors?
> 
> View attachment 152633
> 
> ...


Zinsco panels were usually full of twin breakers, and you show a Zinsco II panel w/ only twin breakers.


----------



## joab (Dec 28, 2019)

134sparky said:


> I did buy 1000 ft spools which definitely made it easy to run the romex. When you staple do you hammer down so that there is no movement at all in the romex? I'm just worried about pinching it so I only hammered it down enough to where it touches the outer sheathing but the romex still moves a little. I'm using those GB staples with white plastic.
> 
> The panel is a Homeline with their qwik grip(those two black pieces on the top of the panel) so I don't have to knock out and put connectors on. So I didn't plan on putting a sleeve into the panel. The qwik grips are towards the front of the panel so I'm thinking of mounting a 2x4 on the plywood above the panel to staple the wire to so it comes straight into the qwik grips and looks a little neater. Also it's hard to tell but some of the home runs come from above, which I ran down his 1st floor exterior wall, but about 2' back because his foundation is 2' thick so should I mount a 2x4 against the subfloor so I can also staple it horizontally between the joist?


If you are using plastic staples, I doubt you can over tighten them, but they aren’t going to get really snug either. As long as the cable “supported and secured” I’d say you are good.

As far as your horizontal support... basic requirements are secured with 12” of an enclosure and every 48” running. Are you exceeding that? If not, no need.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

134sparky said:


> So I'm a commercial electrician out of Chicago who's use to running conduit everywhere. I'm helping my brother out with a whole house rewire including a new panel. His home is 2 hours outside Chicago in the land of romex. The city uses the 2014 edition of the NEC. I've only ever used romex for temp lighting and power on job sites so this all this romex feels a little weird to me.
> 
> The panel is in the unfinished basement, he never plans on finishing it. I had him mount the panel for me and he surface mounted it which I thought was fine until I started to think about to the romex coming down vertically and weather it would be properly protected. Would this panel meet code if I just stapled the romex to the plywood 6" above the panel? Does the romex need additional protection? Should I just reframe it so I can recess the panel and it can be covered with a small piece of drywall up to the joists.
> 
> ...


I would have been tempted to put the home runs in smurf and held the panel off the wall with some fiberglass unistrut. You knew what to do.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

I exclusively use those plastic staples. They hold wire plenty snug. In fact, that's why I use them. I can drive them in tight and not worry about the wire being pinched


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wcord said:


> i usually install a 3x4 or 4x4 sheet, painted grey.
> Room for telco crap


Screw the telco. When have they done anything for you?


----------



## 134sparky (Feb 27, 2014)

Navyguy said:


> Even if I don't need the room, I always put in a 4 x 4 sheet if it will fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. So where is that LB piped to? It looks like stranded wire in the panel. Is there a 12x12 box in the ceiling that you spliced all the romex to stranded? Or did you run conduit everywhere? Is there such a thing as stranded romex?


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

134sparky said:


> Interesting. So where is that LB piped to? It looks like stranded wire in the panel. Is there a 12x12 box in the ceiling that you spliced all the romex to stranded? Or did you run conduit everywhere? Is there such a thing as stranded romex?


I am pretty sure this is where it goes to. That picture is probably about 10 years old now...









Cheers
John


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Norcal said:


> Zinsco panels were usually full of twin breakers, and you show a Zinsco II panel w/ only twin breakers.


Zinsco is not sold in Canada.
That is an Eaton/Cutler Hammer panel with BR breakers.
Siemens and Homeline panels are basically the same


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Navyguy said:


> I am pretty sure this is where it goes to. That picture is probably about 10 years old now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good thing a residential inspector passed it. No derating for conduit fill lol


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Screw the telco. When have they done anything for you?


They let me pre-wire the homes and charge the customer, instead of doing it for free like they used to do until 10 years ago.💲💲💲


----------



## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

wcord said:


> Zinsco is not sold in Canada.
> That is an Eaton/Cutler Hammer panel with BR breakers.
> Siemens and Homeline panels are basically the same


Eaton BR is Zinsco II, bottom of the line "quality" I have hated the BR line for 40 years, back when it was Bryant. The panels are a Challenger design who was the Zinsco successor.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wcord said:


> They let me pre-wire the homes and charge the customer, instead of doing it for free like they used to do until 10 years ago.💲💲💲


Our telcos had to release the interior wiring at the demarc in the 80's. No more billing for additional jacks. From then on, people have to pay monthly maintenance to have the telco repair them for "free." And from then on, pre-wiring became mostly the ECs "extra" or open to all the bands of gypsies on Craigslist advertizing "Low voltage cable TV and phone lines, alarms, intercoms, CCTV and internet work." Who don't seem to think they need any license.


----------



## RobertHuffman60 (Dec 13, 2020)

Navyguy said:


> Even if I don't need the room, I always put in a 4 x 4 sheet if it will fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like a pretty _good job_.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

wcord said:


> Good thing a residential inspector passed it. No derating for conduit fill lol


I am pretty sure that conduit is less then 24", but even if it is not and you did the derations, with 16-18 wires in an 1.25" conduit, nobody cares anyway.

As a side note, our inspectors are not classed into categories of residential, commercial or industrial - they are divided up by geography. So some might get more residential, some might get more agricultural, some might get more industrial; but they are not classed that way.

Cheers
John


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

wcord said:


> Good thing a residential inspector passed it. No derating for conduit fill lol


Ontario uses the 90 degree column when derating so even if there were 21 x 14 awg Romex cables (42 current carrying conductors) in a raceway or bundled together for more than 600 mm, after derating they would still be good for 15 amps.


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> From then on, people have to pay monthly maintenance to have the telco repair them for "free."


I lived in Va Beach (the 80's) when we got the letter from the Telco saying they would maintain and repair any wiring problems (for the telephone) for $0.50/month. I told my wife, the Telco has millions of customers. Suppose 2 million of them take them up on this "good deal". That's a Million Dollars a month. What a racket!


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> I am pretty sure that conduit is less then 24"
> 
> Cheers
> John


 Is there a code that allows us not to derate for short lengths of raceway?


----------



## MadSparky (Mar 2, 2018)

134sparky said:


> So I'm a commercial electrician out of Chicago who's use to running conduit everywhere. I'm helping my brother out with a whole house rewire including a new panel. His home is 2 hours outside Chicago in the land of romex. The city uses the 2014 edition of the NEC. I've only ever used romex for temp lighting and power on job sites so this all this romex feels a little weird to me.
> 
> The panel is in the unfinished basement, he never plans on finishing it. I had him mount the panel for me and he surface mounted it which I thought was fine until I started to think about to the romex coming down vertically and weather it would be properly protected. Would this panel meet code if I just stapled the romex to the plywood 6" above the panel? Does the romex need additional protection? Should I just reframe it so I can recess the panel and it can be covered with a small piece of drywall up to the joists.
> 
> ...


Looks good to me. All our inspectors here have no problem with surface mounted romex going into the top of a surface mounted panel. Even in commercial. Wisconsin omits the 1 hour finish over romex in commercial


----------



## DREC121 (Nov 6, 2020)

You could put a gutter above the panel and then feed all the romexes to the gutter and then put some conduit between the gutter and panel


----------



## daveald68 (Feb 12, 2011)

134sparky said:


> So I'm a commercial electrician out of Chicago who's use to running conduit everywhere. I'm helping my brother out with a whole house rewire including a new panel. His home is 2 hours outside Chicago in the land of romex. The city uses the 2014 edition of the NEC. I've only ever used romex for temp lighting and power on job sites so this all this romex feels a little weird to me.
> 
> The panel is in the unfinished basement, he never plans on finishing it. I had him mount the panel for me and he surface mounted it which I thought was fine until I started to think about to the romex coming down vertically and weather it would be properly protected. Would this panel meet code if I just stapled the romex to the plywood 6" above the panel? Does the romex need additional protection? Should I just reframe it so I can recess the panel and it can be covered with a small piece of drywall up to the joists.
> 
> ...


It looks fine. That’s the way we do them all the time. I really wouldn’t try to overthink it. You still doing commercial work then it might just seem different but this is exactly how it’s supposed to be done.


----------



## Yankee77 (Oct 5, 2020)

Run the cable like you would conduit, it will look amazing when you’re done


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Yankee77 said:


> Run the cable like you would conduit, it will look amazing when you’re done


I'm not putting every NM in a bender just so I can get pretty offsets. :-D


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

samgregger said:


> I'm not putting every NM in a bender just so I can get pretty offsets. :-D


You are a hack. Real electricians use conduit benders on NM cables.


----------

