# GEC to Ground bar



## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Where in the code does it mention utilizing ground bar to land gec? I can't remember if a screw qualified as a means of bonding the two together to land gec.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

250.24(A)(1) says that it should connect to the neutral bar.


*(1) General*. _The grounding electrode conductor connec- tion shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means._


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

GEORGE D said:


> Where in the code does it mention utilizing ground bar to land gec? I can't remember if a screw qualified as a means of bonding the two together to land gec.


250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current Systems.
(A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).
(1) General. The grounding electrode conductor connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.
Informational Note:  See definitions of Service Drop and Service Lateral in Article 100.
(2) Outdoor Transformer. Where the transformer supplying the service is located outside the building, at least one additional grounding connection shall be made from the grounded service conductor to a grounding electrode, either at the transformer or elsewhere outside the building.
Exception:  The additional grounding electrode conductor connection shall not be made on high-impedance grounded neutral systems. The system shall meet the requirements of 250.36.
(3) Dual-Fed Services. For services that are dual fed (double ended) in a common enclosure or grouped together in separate enclosures and employing a secondary tie, a single grounding electrode conductor connection to the tie point of the grounded conductor(s) from each power source shall be permitted.
(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar. Where the main bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar and is installed from the grounded conductor terminal bar or bus to the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus in the service equipment, the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected.
(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.
Informational Note:  See 250.30 for separately derived systems, 250.32 for connections at separate buildings or structures, and 250.142 for use of the grounded circuit conductor for grounding equipment.
(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.
Exception No. 1:  Where more than one service disconnecting means is located in an assembly listed for use as service equipment, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall bond the grounded conductor(s) to the assembly enclosure.
Exception No. 2:  Impedance grounded neutral systems shall be permitted to be connected as provided in 250.36 and 250.186.
(C) Grounded Conductor Brought to Service Equipment. Where an ac system operating at less than 1000 volts is grounded at any point, the grounded conductor(s) shall be routed with the ungrounded conductors to each service disconnecting means and shall be connected to each disconnecting means grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. A main bonding jumper shall connect the grounded conductor(s) to each service disconnecting means enclosure. The grounded conductor(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.24(C)(1) through (C)(4).
Exception:  Where two or more service disconnecting means are located in a single assembly listed for use as service equipment, it shall be permitted to connect the grounded conductor(s) to the assembly common grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. The assembly shall include a main bonding jumper for connecting the grounded conductor(s) to the assembly enclosure.
(1) Sizing for a Single Raceway. The grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the required grounding electrode conductor specified in Table 250.66 but shall not be required to be larger than the largest ungrounded service-entrance conductor(s). In addition, for sets of ungrounded service-entrance conductors larger than 1100 kcmil copper or 1750 kcmil aluminum, the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than 12½ percent of the circular mil area of the largest set of service-entrance ungrounded conductor(s).
(2) Parallel Conductors in Two or More Raceways. If the ungrounded service-entrance conductors are installed in parallel in two or more raceways, the grounded conductor shall also be installed in parallel. The size of the grounded conductor in each raceway shall be based on the total circular mil area of the parallel ungrounded conductors in the raceway, as indicated in 250.24(C)(1), but not smaller than 1/0 AWG.
Informational Note:  See 310.10(H) for grounded conductors connected in parallel.
(3) Delta-Connected Service. The grounded conductor of a 3-phase, 3-wire delta service shall have an ampacity not less than that of the ungrounded conductors.
(4) High Impedance. The grounded conductor on a high-impedance grounded neutral system shall be grounded in accordance with 250.36.
(D) Grounding Electrode Conductor. A grounding electrode conductor shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductors, the service-equipment enclosures, and, where the system is grounded, the grounded service conductor to the grounding electrode(s) required by Part III of this article. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.66.
High-impedance grounded neutral system connections shall be made as covered in 250.36.
Informational Note:  See 250.24(A) for ac system grounding connections.
(E) Ungrounded System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system that is supplied by an ac service that is ungrounded shall have, at each service, a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounding electrode(s) required by Part III of this article. The grounding electrode conductor shall be connected to a metal enclosure of the service conductors at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to the service disconnecting means.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Is this what you are after?

*250.64(C) Continuous*. 
Except as provided in 250.30(A)(5) and
(A)(6), 250.30(B)(1), and 250.68(C), grounding electrode
conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length
without a splice or joint. If necessary, splices or connections shall be made as permitted in (1) through (4):
(1) Splicing of the wire-type grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equip-ment or by the exothermic welding process.
(2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected
together to form a grounding electrode conductor.
(3) Bolted, riveted, or welded connections of structural
metal frames of buildings or structures.
(4) Threaded, welded, brazed, soldered or bolted-flange
connections of metal water piping.

Pete


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> Is this what you are after?
> 
> 250.64(C) Continuous.
> Except as provided in 250.30(A)(5) and
> ...


No it was 250.24A(4)

(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar. Where the main bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar and is installed from the grounded conductor terminal bar or bus to the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus in the service equipment, the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I've got a question on this same topic. Take a look at this panel:









The neutral bar on the right is isolated from the pan. The ground bar on the left is attached to the pan and to that bar that runs horizontally over to the neutral bar.

If you turn that little solid copper wire thingie and insert it into the neutral bar, that becomes the main bonding jumper.

My question is whether 250.24(A)(4) would allow you to land the GEC on the left side ground bar in this situation? The same goes for neutrals, since there is a buss bar going across, could you land neutrals on that left bar?

I ask because I almost failed a service change because my helper landed some of the neutrals to that ground bar in a panel configured the same way. The inspector allowed me to run a #4 from one bar to the other in order to pass the inspection, but it seems as if the installation was correct without the #4 jumper.

Opinions?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I've got a question on this same topic. Take a look at this panel:
> 
> View attachment 27402
> 
> ...


IMHO, once the (factory) jumper is installed, either buss could be used for termination of neutral conductors.

Pete


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

what? he made you run a #4 with the factory installed one in place??
i've taken the factory ones out before when used as a sub panel...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

HackWork said:


> The inspector allowed me to run a #4 from one bar to the other in order to pass the inspection, but it seems as if the installation was correct without the #4 jumper.
> 
> Opinions?


That was mighty nice of him :001_huh:

...do you have the install sheet [or d/l the pdf] that came with the panel?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Pete m. said:


> IMHO, once the (factory) jumper is installed, either buss could be used for termination of neutral conductors.
> 
> Pete


...and EGCs :thumbsup:


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## Stuff (Oct 14, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I've got a question on this same topic. Take a look at this panel:
> 
> View attachment 27402
> 
> ...


What did the label in the panel say is allowed? Murray label I just read says when properly bonded for a service installation the left bar becomes a split neutral.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Stuff said:


> What did the label in the panel say is allowed? Murray label I just read says when properly bonded for a service installation the left bar becomes a split neutral.


Pretty much everyone of them is the same. I know a few dopey inspectors that can't comprehend this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I guess the confusion is when you run a screw thru the neutral bar into the pan to bond it, in that case you can't use the ground bar as a neutral bar.

The instructions that came with the panel were generic garbage that only told you how to remove the cover KO's 

It was a dark basement so I could barely see the labels on the panel, I just figured I would put the #4 in and get it done with.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I guess the confusion is when you run a screw thru the neutral bar into the pan to bond it, in that case you can't use the ground bar as a neutral bar. ...


The only time you run the screw through the neutral bar into the panel is at the service disconnect or at the first disconnect of a SDS. In either case, the bar can be used for both the equipment grounding conductors and the grounded conductors. If there are additional equipment grounding bars that are only connected to the enclosure (no wire jumper to the neutral bar), they cannot be used for grounded conductors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The only time you run the screw through the neutral bar into the panel is at the service disconnect or at the first disconnect of a SDS. In either case, the bar can be used for both the equipment grounding conductors and the grounded conductors. If there are additional equipment grounding bars that are only connected to the enclosure (no wire jumper to the neutral bar), they cannot be used for grounded conductors.


Yes Sir, that is what I said in the sentence you quoted.


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