# red danger tape



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

What is your policy on crossing red danger tape? Our company and our customers consider this grounds for termination. Today we had a person cross our barrier tape and refuse to leave the area. Apparently, it was OK since he is the mill manager. What a **** storm that caused. A safety meeting with the mill reps was called and the manager sent the assistant mill manager in his place. They are admitting no wrongdoing on their part. Fun times.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I guess it depends on whether or not you have business in the danger zone. I'm guessing you are saying he did not.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

How many man hrs were wasted because he crossed a line? Was he really in danger? Was there a legitimate concern? Or was this classic union over-reaction?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

For us that would be very simple: It's your facility, Mr. Customer, so you can certainly cross the tape if you wish, but if we feel you are in jeopardy through our actions (or vise versa) we will stop working until you are at a safe distance or wearing appropriate PPE, and yes, the delay is costing you by the hour.

-John


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Considering there were several iron workers above and heavy lifts in progress, yes. How is this a union discussion?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> Considering there were several iron workers above and heavy lifts in progress, yes. How is this a union discussion?


 

Because a non union contractor would not mouth off, (or even tell a plant manager) what he can and cannot do. See John's post.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The OP sounds like a drama queen.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

It's his company and mill. Mind your own business.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

My policy only applies to my guys. The customer can do as they please.

I reserve the right to pull guys out and stop work if things actually get dangerous.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Because a non union contractor would not mouth off, (or even tell a plant manager) what he can and cannot do. See John's post.





sparky970 said:


> Considering there were several iron workers above and heavy lifts in progress, yes. How is this a union discussion?


this is not a union vs non union issue. The OP stated there was a heavy lift in progress, that's what the red tape is for. If the cable snapped and someone got killed, whats the first question that will be asked, was the area taped off? Why was anyone allowed to enter that red taped zone? Who ever created the hazard is the responsible party for that area, by taping it off and not allowing anyone in that area IS the right call.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

It's the mills policy as well. The mill safety people and engineers agree he should not have been inside the barricade. They tell us almost every week at the safety meetings if you see someone being unsafe or not following the safety rules to confront them, whether they're a mill employee or another contractor.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> It's the mills policy as well. The mill safety people and engineers agree he should not have been inside the barricade. They tell us almost every week at the safety meetings if you see someone being unsafe or not following the safety rules to confront them, whether they're a mill employee or another contractor.


He has the last word here. Your company followed the rules, he did not. Move on.


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> What is your policy on crossing red danger tape? Our company and our customers consider this grounds for termination. Today we had a person cross our barrier tape and refuse to leave the area. Apparently, it was OK since he is the mill manager. What a **** storm that caused. A safety meeting with the mill reps was called and the manager sent the assistant mill manager in his place. They are admitting no wrongdoing on their part. Fun times.


It does not matter one bit whether this is union or non-union. IMHO, you guys did the right thing. However, in the end, it is up to the mill to enforce their own rules. As is always the case with large companies, it is a policy of "do as we say, not as we do".

Chances are, the manager had absolutely no business inside of the taped off area. He was just being nosy and obviously feels that he can do whatever he wants to.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> Considering there were several iron workers above and heavy lifts in progress, yes. How is this a union discussion?


Because in 30 plus years in the trade I have only seen this type of drama when unions are involved.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> It's the mills policy as well. The mill safety people and engineers agree he should not have been inside the barricade. They tell us almost every week at the safety meetings if you see someone being unsafe or not following the safety rules to confront them, whether they're a mill employee or another contractor.


That is the mills problem, not yours.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

I love how everything turns into a union issue on this site.

However - ignoring the ignorant folks here for a second - almost anywhere I have worked crossing the red tape is instant termination unless you had permission from the folks who put up the tape. I have seen management level folks terminated for that offense as well as grunt level folks.

The purpose of the tape ( or red rope in PSEG land ) is to allow the workmen at that place and at that time to work safely. If you put it up you should be confident that no one is going to cross it. If you do not have that confidence, then the tape is essentially useless.

So now, you have a situation where you cannot use the red tape. So, in order to work safely you now have to waste time putting up actual barricades and manpower to secure those barricades against intruders. 

Big John is correct - any intruder would halt the work but that means having to watch for idiots, and because they idiots cannot even be trusted to respect the most simple of safety protocols that means having to work much more carefully and slowly.

It is like a stop sign at an intersection. It only works for everyone if everyone respects it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Because in 30 plus years in the trade I have only seen this type of drama when unions are involved.


You ought to get out more.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> That is the mills problem, not yours.


Unless of course the mill manager was killed. Which was the point of the red tape, to avoid killing the mill manager. Who was too stupid to respect the safety protocols that he signed off on. Who was such a prima donna that he felt that safety didn't apply to him that he put everyone in that area at risk.
Whose family would sue the mill, all the contractors and maybe even sparky970 personally. 

Safety and the resulting maiming and deaths that occur when the rules are not applied and followed are everyone's problem.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eejack said:


> Unless of course the mill manager was killed. Which was the point of the red tape, to avoid killing the mill manager. Who was too stupid to respect the safety protocols that he signed off on. Who was such a prima donna that he felt that safety didn't apply to him that he put everyone in that area at risk.
> Whose family would sue the mill, all the contractors and maybe even sparky970 personally.
> 
> Safety and the resulting maiming and deaths that occur when the rules are not applied and followed are everyone's problem.


So next time you put up a red tape and the mill manager crosses it. Tackle him, beat him senseless and drag him back across the line. See how that works for ya.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Unless of course the mill manager was killed. Which was the point of the red tape, to avoid killing the mill manager. .


You seem to have problem with reading.

If the company I was working for put up tape, was doing somthing that required the tape and a customers rep went past it we would simply stop the work we were doing. No fuss, no drama. 


You and the OP are trying to dress this up as safety related when the real issue is the electricians where ass chapped that mayor Mccheese gets to cross a line they can't.

To 'fix' the safety issue all it takes is the work to stop while the idiot is in the way.



> You ought to get out more.


I get out tons, and often on mixed jobs, I stand by my statement. I don't see this dram with non-union subs. 

But it's all good, I understand you guys experience butt hurt a lot.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I love how everything turns into a union issue on this site.


Good, glad I could help you enjoy things! :thumbup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

This topic has crossed the red tape.:laughing::laughing:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Tape or a barbed wire fence, it don't matter. Some people will still enter the work area. 
It's the companies safety policy problem.

But regardless of the type barrier in place, its the contractor who is responsible for job site safety. 
No matter who is below, dropping an I beam on someone's head will still be your fault. You didn't do what was needed to protect your workers.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> You seem to have problem with reading.
> 
> If the company I was working for put up tape, was doing somthing that required the tape and a customers rep went past it we would simply stop the work we were doing. No fuss, no drama.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that you expect no one to respect the tape and therefore have to devote time and resources to protect your work area. 

When I am at the limits of a 120 JLG I cannot monitor the idiots below me not respecting the tape. When I drop something from that height, anyone below me can get killed. So will you cry about wasting manpower if I put a man below whose job it is keep idiots from crossing the tape?

What is the point of safety rules if you don't enforce them?

Any how do you stop a pick? Okay, so you see the idiot walk into the hazard zone...what do you do, hang the deadly load over his head until he leaves?

Maybe the reason why you don't see any drama with non union subs is because they are just unsafe and uncaring.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> So what you are saying is that you expect no one to respect the tape and therefore have to devote time and resources to protect your work area.


No that is not what I said at all.

What I expect is the guys that work for our company to follow the rules of OSHA and the customer. It is not my job to force other contractors (not working for us) to comply with the rules.

As far as the customer they are free to do what they want. If we have to stop work and wait for them so be it. If this became a habit it would be brought up as a cost issue for slow downs.




> When I am at the limits of a 120 JLG I cannot monitor the idiots below me not respecting the tape. When I drop something from that height, anyone below me can get killed. So will you cry about wasting manpower if I put a man below whose job it is keep idiots from crossing the tape?


Oh the drama. I would just keep dropping things ......... <JK>



> What is the point of safety rules if you don't enforce them?


If I thought the OP was really concerned about safety we would not be having this conversation. It is my belief this is all about chest pumping and chapped asses. I could be wrong but my personal experience says otherwise. Your mileage may vary.



> Any how do you stop a pick? Okay, so you see the idiot walk into the hazard zone...what do you do, hang the deadly load over his head until he leaves?


You stop the pick, it is not on auto pilot when it leaves someone is directing it on a safe job site. 



> Maybe the reason why you don't see any drama with non union subs is because they are just unsafe and uncaring.


That could be it, but our mod rate shows the opposite. :thumbsup:

Well time to go do some unsafe stuff.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

We got two drama queens on the thread now!


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> We got two drama queens on the thread now!


Okay, I'll tone it down.:laughing::laughing:


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I was on a job where a similar situation arose, and we shut down. Indeed, we left the site, and did not return until the customer understood how serious we were. Our determination had something to do with the fact that one of our guys got hurt as a result of the customer's employee's actions. That contractor was a 'plank owner' of ABC, and it doesn't get more non-union than that.

Forget who 'owns' a place. That job site is 'mine' until I'm through ... and the customer needs to respect that. There are many reasons you need site 'security,' and safety is often such a reason. I've already bent over backwards to accomodate the customers' convenience - and they need to recognize that.

Doesn't stop even supposedly intellegent folks from doing stupid things - I've had folks try to move a ladder while I was on it, just because they didn't want to walk around - but it's a start. Fact is, when I've got my head in the ceiling troubleshooting a 'hot' circuit, I don't need to be worrying about some stranger poking through my toolbox.

I'm continually amazed at the number of folks who will tell me they're the 'owners.' Sure they are. Bloody tourists. Or, the folks who ask inane questions ... such as what will be on the menu of the restaurant that we're building. Folks, it's a JOB SITE. Stay clear! We have work to do!

Sure, our work is fascinating. We can turn a hole in the ground into a skyscraper. I've yet to see offices with peepholes in the hall, so passersby can watch the desk rats work  

More often, the 'casual visitor' is simply up to no good. From scrounging materials to stealing tools ... you bet I care who comes on site!

The worst offenders are "management" types who think they're kings. They'll be the first to kvetch, thinking that they know it all. I'm not getting paid to hold their hands. Job has a project manager, they can talk to him.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

A few months ago, on a different site. The same situation occured. The engineer fell through a hole because he didn't respect the barrier.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Everything is fine till someone gets hurt... :no::no:

What does OSHA say about crossing red tape... that should be the people who have the final say on what is right and wrong...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

OSHA expects compliance but at no time does it make the electricians responsibility to enforce the rules to other contractors.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

Used to get a lot of people who would do this when doing tower work. 

We would halt all work, until they moved. 

If not, a nut dropped does not feel good


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> A few months ago, on a different site. The same situation occured. The engineer fell through a hole because he didn't respect the barrier.


 

Nope, you're wrong on that part. 
Red tape is not a boundary for a hole that someone can fall into. 

So, either you made that up to drastically prove your point, or the circumstances with that incedent are not even close to yours. But, either way, your motive fails.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nope, you're wrong on that part.
> Red tape is not a boundary for a hole that someone can fall into.
> 
> So, either you made that up to drastically prove your point, or the circumstances with that incedent are not even close to yours. But, either way, your motive fails.


I believe a hole that is large enough to cause an injury needs to be covered with something strong enough to handle the expected load and be marked in some manner.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> No that is not what I said at all.


Actually, yes it is. You said you would stop whatever. That means you have to have someone watching for someone to disrespect your safety protocols. You cannot stop if you have no one watching.



BBQ said:


> What I expect is the guys that work for our company to follow the rules of OSHA and the customer. It is not my job to force other contractors (not working for us) to comply with the rules.
> 
> As far as the customer they are free to do what they want. If we have to stop work and wait for them so be it. If this became a habit it would be brought up as a cost issue for slow downs.


But you cannot do that. If you accidentally kill a customer it is your fault, since you already have planned on and expect your safety protocols to be ignored by a class of potential victims...ie the customer.

OSHA does not make any distinction, nor can you. You would be found liable if your plan is to only make your own personnel safe from your own actions.



BBQ said:


> You stop the pick, it is not on auto pilot when it leaves someone is directing it on a safe job site.


That is just silly and you know it. An eighty foot section of smokestack swinging through the air is not going to magically "stop" just because the customer decided to wander into the drop zone.

He crosses your red tape it is your fault.



BBQ said:


> That could be it, but our mod rate shows the opposite. :thumbsup:


I'm glad your mods are good - I don't want to see anyone hurt. Honestly.

But your willingness to put your customers at risk is a bit disturbing.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

eejack said:


> ...You would be found liable if your plan is to only make your own personnel safe from your own actions....


 Stopping work _is _the mechanism by which you remove the hazard and protect those around you.

A strict safety barrier policy doesn't absolve the workers of the responsibility to protect those around them. Strict or lenient, people still have to be on guard and there has to be a procedure in place to deal with folks who violate the cordon.

-John


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Big John said:


> Strict or lenient, people still have to be on guard and there has to be a procedure in place to deal with folks who violate the cordon.
> 
> -John


Exactly, it shouldn't matter who you are


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

if they dont respect the red tape replace it with energized razor wire. if that doesnt work fire em all and bring your own people in to run the mill. then hold a meeting about it


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> Actually, yes it is. You said you would stop whatever. That means you have to have someone watching for someone to disrespect your safety protocols. You cannot stop if you have no one watching.
> 
> But you cannot do that. If you accidentally kill a customer it is your fault, since you already have planned on and expect your safety protocols to be ignored by a class of potential victims...ie the customer.
> 
> ...


 It's almost like you're not even listening to what he saying! The customers not at risk because he would stop. He can stop because he has eyeballs. I have no idea what you're saying that you would need someone looking out. I never read Bob's post to put anybody at risk. Can we get a drama free straight answer from you?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

eejack said:


> He crosses your red tape it is your fault.


Really, he cuts your locks it your fault too. So now I have to post guards at all my locks? Where do you come up with this crap?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

You can't stop stupidity with a plastic red tape. Move on and work safely.:thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It's almost like you're not even listening to what he saying! The customers not at risk because he would stop. He can stop because he has eyeballs. I have no idea what you're saying that you would need someone looking out. I never read Bob's post to put anybody at risk. Can we get a drama free straight answer from you?


I'm sorry but perhaps we work on different kinds of sites. When I am up 100' in the air I cannot eyeball the ground and stop whatever whenever someone breaks the rules and crosses the NEVER CROSS THIS RED TAPE red tape. 

If I am on one end of a megger, I cannot watch the other end just in case some mouth breathing window licking moron decides to cross the tape and put himself in danger.

If someone is testing the pressure on a new gas line, they cannot guard the whole line just in case someone decides that the rules do not apply to them. Why is that so hard to understand? 

No drama involved. The tape is the entire safety system. Not, red tape and a guard. Just red tape. Break though the red tape and you can die. You don't know what the danger is, you just know that you cannot cross the red tape.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

backstay said:


> Really, he cuts your locks it your fault too. So now I have to post guards at all my locks? Where do you come up with this crap?


It is not me coming up with this crap, it is all the folks who are saying the customer can do whatever he wants. Anyone puts up a red tape, or a lock or whatever safety protocol you want - according to them, the customer can ignore that protocol.

Any site that I am working on, at least in the last ten or so years, has a zero tolerance instant termination does not matter who you are or who you work for policy. Cross a red tape, cut a lock, climb over a barricade, spark in no spark area - you are gone. 

With that policy I know that I ( and others ) are safe when I put up a red tape, or lock out some gear. Without that policy, my safety efforts are perhaps completely useless.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

There are two different things being discussed here: One is how to guard a hazard. The other is what to do if someone ignores the guards.

Nobody can do whatever they want, but there needs to be a plan in place in case something goes wrong, and that's where the Stop Work orders come in.

-John


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