# so the panel in the closet thing, how have you guys fixed this legit



## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

We have a good customer that has around 200 rental units. We picked him up last year, and he's been keeping us busy more and more, all three trades, it's been nice.

One of the properties has around 30 duplex buildings. All aluminum wire, all metered on one end, with SE cable (not conduit) going inside, without an OCPD ahead of it of course, landing in a shallow clothes closet on an inside wall. Meter cans are two banger milbanks, SE goes out the back, into the wall.

Some of these have been changed out, but some haven't. It'd be damn near impossible to pull all the circuits outside to a 3R panel like we normally would, based on the construction, and being SE, no conduit to pull THHN. Then Al to boot, making a bunch of Cu/Al connections. :vs_whistle:

What have you guys done in this situation? I'd just pull the meter and replace the panel quickly, but if you wanted to be legit and permit it...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When you walk into a poker game and nobody tells you who is the fall guy, you are the fall guy...............


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

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macmikeman said:


> When you walk into a poker game and nobody tells you who is the fall guy, you are the fall guy...............


LOL it doesn’t bother me. Its fed overhead, I’ll cut the drop and crimp back on, or I’ve got barrel keys and seals, I’ll yank the meter. I don’t care to get the city involved in the slightest. 

Just an interesting situation they put together. Can’t flip it around either, other side is either stove, toilet, or furnace backed up to it, depending on floorplan. 

They built these things so fast during the oil boom, the city missed a ton of stuff back in the day. Couldn’t keep up I’m sure, neighborhoods sold before breaking ground on the first house.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I am sure you already ruled out just turning the panel around on the wall. (Edit - yep you said so in your second post.) 

I think anything else you do is a variation of using the old panel as a junction box and relocating the panel. Your original idea to put it outside really might be best because you won't have to deal with extending the SE. Opening the ceiling joist to joist isn't *that* much more work to patch than patching a bunch of small holes. 

A bunch of Al to Cu splices in a big roomy junction box is much easier to deal with than it is in itty bitty switch boxes, you can just use terminal blocks, looks nice, easy to maintain, easy to terminate.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

splatz said:


> I am sure you already ruled out just turning the panel around on the wall. (Edit - yep you said so in your second post.)
> 
> I think anything else you do is a variation of using the old panel as a junction box and relocating the panel. Your original idea to put it outside really might be best because you won't have to deal with extending the SE. Opening the ceiling joist to joist isn't *that* much more work to patch than patching a bunch of small holes.
> 
> A bunch of Al to Cu splices in a big roomy junction box is much easier to deal with than it is in itty bitty switch boxes, you can just use terminal blocks, looks nice, easy to maintain, easy to terminate.


Double the joints, double the failures, double the liability...

Homeowners are stupid, and GCs are a close second. They always want panels out of sight and then it's your fault if something goes wrong. Let it stay where it is, inconvenience them, and they're liable when a fire or worse happens because they moved it to a dumb spot.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

paulengr said:


> Double the joints, double the failures, double the liability...


You have a point there. That's of course a good design rule but big picture, overall I'd say putting that panel outside makes this house safer. 

* Its not double the splices; it's one more splice per circuit. I have great confidence in the terminal block terminations in this setting unless it's under a railroad bridge. The ones I'd worry about are the splices and terminations all through the branch circuits. 

* Main breaker outside - widely regarded by ET members to double safety 

* Less extension of unfused conductors into the house. 

* New breakers. 

* Easier to convert wiring to CU in the future - in time there will be less Al

The alternative to dealing with the aluminum wiring is to rewire the house, and that is safer, but it isn't going to happen, except on fantasy island, but if you're going there, go heavy, why not imagine a world where houses are made of non conductive non combustible materials?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

relabel all clothes closets "Electrical Room"


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

lighterup said:


> relabel all clothes closets "Electrical Room"


it's similar to what they do in commercial settings. re-label electrical rooms "storage closet"


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## Wade (Jul 4, 2010)

Turn it into a computer nook.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Wade said:


> Turn it into a computer nook.


Smart. It’s two sliding doors, would make a perfect build in desk area.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Had a customer in SF that had their panel in an entry closet, except the panel was imbedded in the concrete structure. 

The inspector requested we relocate the panel, because we were adding a single circuit to the kitchen. I protested and took it to the head inspector, who sided with the electrical inspector.

I took the door off, removed all the door trim, removed the shelf and hanger rod. Called for a re-inspection. The inspector arrived and asked where we re-located the panel. I told him we re-located the closet, and that the panel was installed to the "Electrical Niche".... 

He passed us, and then we re-installed all the stuff. Normally I would just relocate it, but being that every part of this buildings electrical was concrete imbedded, I decided NO.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

matt1124 said:


> We have a good customer that has around 200 rental units. We picked him up last year, and he's been keeping us busy more and more, all three trades, it's been nice.
> 
> One of the properties has around 30 duplex buildings. All aluminum wire, all metered on one end, with SE cable (not conduit) going inside, without an OCPD ahead of it of course, landing in a shallow clothes closet on an inside wall. Meter cans are two banger milbanks, SE goes out the back, into the wall.
> 
> ...


I can't help but ask why you feel compelled to get into changing these panels.
The AHJ allowed them to do this during construction.
I see things like this all of the time.
I have one response when an inspector comments about existing work that was permitted.
It goes something like " I work in 100 different jurisdictions in any given year. I don't come into someone's town and judge them on what they allowed."
And if pushed, " If you want the owner to address the problem, it will need to be in writing."

We usually find stupid things like no OCP on a generator and the ATS has only switches and not breakers, over fused hilegs, clearance issues.
Mostly items are wrong with a service. Technical issues we cringe about these days.
Things that have been in place for decades and would be crazy expensive to remediate. 
10/10 we get a pass.


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## Wade (Jul 4, 2010)

It only happened once and the guy who did the job begged of the AHJ and they classified the closet as a small office.
Don't beg off do it legit move the dang thing, and pull a permit.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

My housing client has hundreds of Zinsco and FPE panels and eventually someone, whether insurance, or a subsidizing agency is going to make them change these out. Most are in closets and its going to be tough. In some cases, we can spin them and they'll end up in a hall or bedroom. The others not sure what to do with yet.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sometimes you just cannot win.

One job , I put a sub panel in a walk in closet (not a bedroom , but 
a hallway) in a very large new construction residential single family 
dwelling.

I asked the owner what the closet was going to be used for and she said miscellaneous...husbands golf clubs , vacuum cleaner , board games 
but no linens.

So based on that & that I had 3' working clearance , I put the panel 
in there.

Not to be so. Inspector didn't like it . Had me turn it around and
face out the opposite wall....in a 2nd floor Laundry right behind
the electric clothes dryer:vs_laugh: ...errr that was okay though:no:

I clarified all info above and told him he was having me put it in 
back of n appliance with no working clearance.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The fact he pretty much said "screw the city screw the code" makes me not wanna take him to serious.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

sbrn33 said:


> The fact he pretty much said "screw the city screw the code" makes me not wanna take him to serious.



There's a_ lot_ of that going around in this mans' trade, the race to the bottom 

Anecdotally, i fielded much after the lions share of my customers vaporized in '08. The predator slumlords _knew_ we were hungry, most of whom where non compliant on numerous levels.

Adopting an _after-check-clears permit policy_ solved that for me 

:vs_cool:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> The fact he pretty much said "screw the city screw the code" makes me not wanna take him to serious.


Sounds like a "mom & pop" owner that didn't do their homework. Not our job to bale them out.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

No electrical panels in closets is a strange rule (I'm not talking 
about clothes or linen closets)

How many of us install the main in a utility room in the basement
often the same dimensions as a large storage closet.

Now ho many of us go back to the house ( after move in 1-2-3 
years later) only to find the "utility room" now has rolling clothes 
hangers , suit cases , boxes of burnable items all stacked up right 
against the panel door to the point you don't even see the panel 
anymore.

Inspectors love to say .."yeah but the HO can change the use of 
the storage closet"...they sure can.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

lighterup said:


> No electrical panels in closets is a strange rule (I'm not talking
> about clothes or linen closets)
> 
> How many of us install the main in a utility room in the basement
> ...


Sometimes you can see them across the stuffed full garage too, through a space in the boxes stacked in front of them!


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

I had one inspector red tag a McD's resturaunt ,for stackin' their stuff in front of their panels years ago, i was all high 5's , '_stick THAT in yer happy meal_' :devil3:

Serioulsy , if folks that build 5000 sq ft homes ,etc , can't _respect _us enough to grant 3' of it to our trade , why work for them?:vs_cool:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

SISYPHUS said:


> I had one inspector red tag a McD's resturaunt ,for stackin' their stuff in front of their panels years ago, i was all high 5's , '_stick THAT in yer happy meal_' :devil3:
> 
> *Serioulsy , if folks that build 5000 sq ft homes ,etc , can't respect us enough to grant 3' of it to our trade , why work for them?:vs_cool:*


Yeah Steve, that's a real high priority on my vetting list of customer qualifications. :biggrin:

If I see anything in front of that panel I drop them like a "small potato". :vs_laugh:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Honestly I have no problem installing one in a closet with the proper clearances but I don't because it does not meet code.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SISYPHUS said:


> Serioulsy , if folks that build 5000 sq ft homes ,etc , can't _respect _us enough to grant 3' of it to our trade , why work for them?:vs_cool:


So we should turn down a job doing a 5,000sqft house because their designer didn't make enough space for the electrical panel?

Are you even an electrician? I thought this was a professional forum.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Honestly I have no problem installing one in a closet with the proper clearances but I don't because it does not meet code.


even a 2nd floor Utility room?

I agree if it's a closet and it's in a bedroom , bathroom , laundry 
Foyer , it's a clothes , coat or linen closet and it don't matter what 
the architect titles it or the HO wants to call it.

Like I said before., often the Main is placed in walled off areas 
(with a door) smaller than many walk in closets . Just cause 
it's in a basement ..it's not considered  a closet , therefore
okaay to put an electric distribution panel in it?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Closets became taboo because of the c%$p that gets shoved right in front of the panel... that then manages to catch fire.

The old classic was Christmas tree ornaments often enough manufactured out of nitrocellulose!

Even in Commercial E-rooms mind boggling stupidity is the norm. In so many words, the property owner packs insulation around the big grey boxes. Now everything is really getting toasty.

I remember one offending room that became so hot you couldn't stay in it. I didn't have a thermometer, but I'd put it at 140F !

So the entire restriction turns on human behavior... in this case, extreme stupidity.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

lighterup said:


> even a 2nd floor Utility room?
> 
> I agree if it's a closet and it's in a bedroom , bathroom , laundry
> Foyer , it's a clothes , coat or linen closet and it don't matter what
> ...


If it has proper clearances go for it. A 3X3 foot room is good enough for me.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

flyboy said:


> Yeah Steve, that's a real high priority on my vetting list of customer qualifications. :biggrin:
> 
> If I see anything in front of that panel I drop them like a "small potato". :vs_laugh:


then by all means, work for those who _disrespect_ you Flyboy

and hey, i do understand being _hard up_ for work

best of luck pal

:vs_cool:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SISYPHUS said:


> then by all means, work for those who _disrespect_ you Flyboy
> 
> and hey, i do understand being _hard up_ for work
> 
> ...


Steve, do you really not see how crazy you make yourself look?

A homeowner is disrespecting all electrician by not having a larger room installed for their electrical panel??

An electrician who works on that house is _hard up_?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Unless somebody really pushes the issue I don't move them.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The real solution: fire insurance!


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

SISYPHUS said:


> then by all means, work for those who _disrespect_ you Flyboy
> 
> and hey, i do understand being _hard up_ for work
> 
> ...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Panels in closets are fine when you put at least seventy straps on the feeder within the first ten feet of the panel.........


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Panels in closets are fine when you put at least seventy straps on the feeder within the first ten feet of the panel.........


Only when in conjunction with 30' of extra feeder hidden somewhere in that panel.....


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

panel probably should be moved to kitchen, within sight of appliances:devil3:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> panel probably should be moved to kitchen, within sight of appliances:devil3:


Shunt trip?

ANSUL?

Me thinks you're over-engineering this project. :biggrin:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Just do an AFCI MCB.... AFCI's solve every electrical problem known to man.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> Shunt trip?
> 
> ANSUL?
> 
> Me thinks you're over-engineering this project. :biggrin:


andd Telsa...me thinks you just missed the punch line:vs_laugh:
...ain't that right Dave?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> andd Telsa...me thinks you just missed the punch line:vs_laugh:
> ...ain't that right Dave?


It _is_ a code requirement, right Steve?? :vs_laugh:


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> Shunt trip?
> 
> ANSUL?
> 
> Me thinks you're over-engineering this project. :biggrin:


inside joke, hackwork and lighterup evidently recognized reference


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

telsa said:


> Shunt trip?
> 
> ANSUL?
> 
> Me thinks you're over-engineering this project. :biggrin:


inside joke, hackwork and lighterup evidently recognized reference:wink:


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