# Tracing circuits through walls? (residential + commercial)



## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

So, I had a little side work today from a family member. Well, there was like 5 different electrical problems to do at her house but 4 out of the 5 I completed, and one REALLY got to me. I couldn't figure it out before time ran out and I had to leave. I'm sitting here upset yet determined now to figure this out. 

The problem is there is an outside plug (none gfci) that has no power to it. No other outside plugs even remotely close to this one. It's basically the only plug outside in the backyard, recessed inside the wall. No breakers are tripped. 

When I go inside, I've checked all GFCI's and none are tripped. I've checked all the wall switched inside that are very close to that outside plug, all hots have power. I've checked all inside plugs that are very close to that plug and all have power in each and every romex. I'm literally stuck, I've checked every box possible that this could be fed from and I simply cannot find the issue... 

I tried hooking up a toner to the wires and tracing it through the walls but that didn't work too well, the toner isn't strong enough.

So next step is hooking up a circuit tracer that can trace dead wires and trace them through walls and floors... I have an ideal circuit tracer that can trace live circuits but not dead. Anyone know of a great tracer that is very good at tracing dead circuits inside walls? I know this won't be cheap, but I guess it's time to buy one now because this problem is starting to come up often.

Ideal seams to make one, it's 'Ideal 61-959' and it's like $1,500 for the model that comes with all accessories. They sell the base model without all the bells and whistles that will also work.... Just wondering what people think about it if they've used it before. Or if they know of another that works better. Or if anyone has any better ideas or good tips? Sorry for the long read, thanks for making this far!


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## ppsh (Jan 2, 2014)

Are you sure you have found EVERY gfci? Kitchen, bathrooms, bedrooms, crawlspace entry, garage, underneath eaves, under decks, laundry room, inside of cabinets in those rooms? Look behind shelving and furniture. Check for power on the load side terminals of GFCIs too.

If that fails, check to see if there is continuity form neutral to ground the dead outlet. If you have continuity that means that at least the neutral and ground are making it back to the panel.

Kill the main.

Tie the neutral and ground together with a wire nut in that box.

Take the neutrals off the neutral bar one by one and check for continuity to ground. Test them all too, once you find one, there may be shared neutrals that shouldn't be shared.

OK, so you know what circuit(s) have continuity. Hopefully its just one.

Unhook the neutral ground wire nut at the mystery box, re-land your neutrals and energize just the circuit you found and find what all that breaker energizes and check all of those junction boxes and GFCIs.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Backfeed the receptacle from a dedicated circuit like the washing machine (maybe use Romex with a cord end on it). Shut off all remaining 120V circuits. Wander around with your NCVT (or use your live wire detector). FWIW, live wire detectors aren’t very reliable but maybe that’s just my experience.

That’s after you check for a dud breaker or bad breaker connection.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have gone a long time without needing one of those expensive tracers. I don't think it is a necessity. 

Plug an extension cord into a good outlet and bring the female end out to the bad outlet, see if the neutral and ground are connected. Someone might have disconnect that outlet completely.

That outlet might be fed from a junction box that has been covered over, such as when someone finished the basement ceiling. And the connection might have broke in that hidden box.

Someone might have fed that outlet from the attic, some random junction box might be buried under the insulation at the lowest part of the roof.

Any recessed lights in the basement? Sometimes people put junction boxes behind them.

No luck? Now it might be time to start cutting holes. I use a 4" holesaw and then a small piece of wood to screw the plug back in when I am done. Make a hole inside behind the outlet to see where the wire is going, then follow along.




99cents said:


> Backfeed the receptacle from a dedicated circuit like the washing machine (maybe use Romex with a cord end on it). Shut off all remaining 120V circuits. Wander around with your NCVT (or use your live wire detector).


This is a really awesome idea. 

I would shut the main to the house off, use my alligator clip pigtail to get power from the service conductors, then use an extension cord with male to male plug adapter to backfeed the outlet. 

I am going to make up that suicide adapter today :biggrin:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have gone a long time without needing one of those expensive tracers. I don't think it is a necessity.
> 
> Plug an extension cord into a good outlet and bring the female end out to the bad outlet, see if the neutral and ground are connected. Someone might have disconnect that outlet completely.
> 
> ...


You’re crazy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You’re crazy.


Noooooo! It's your idea!


I think it might work better by turning off the main because the tick tracer won't pick up ghost voltages, other than maybe from wiring that are near the 1 circuit being backfed, which might be a good thing.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

HackWork said:


> This is a really awesome idea.
> 
> I would shut the main to the house off, use my alligator clip pigtail to get power from the service conductors, then use an extension cord with male to male plug adapter to backfeed the outlet.
> 
> I am going to make up that suicide adapter today :biggrin:


Yea, but unless you have a helper inside to actually witness the explosion and start of the fire, how are you really going to know where the fault was? :vs_laugh:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Looking for hard to find splice boxes is a last resort because splices rarely come apart on their own (and, no, I don’t want to resurrect the burying junction boxes discussion).


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

samgregger said:


> Yea, but unless you have a helper inside to actually witness the explosion and start of the fire, how are you really going to know where the fault was? :vs_laugh:


Knocking out the utility Xmer makes for a bad day.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Looking for hard to find splice boxes is a last resort because splices rarely come apart on their own (and, no, I don’t want to resurrect the burying junction boxes discussion).


It actually happens often in my experience. A poor splice was made, then after years of it heating and cooling, expanding and contracting, it finally comes apart. Most of the time it was very old wiring that was clearly spliced by someone who didn't know how to make a decent splice.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It actually happens often in my experience. A poor splice was made, then after years of it heating and cooling, expanding and contracting, it finally comes apart. Most of the time it was very old wiring that was clearly spliced by someone who didn't know how to make a decent splice.


Okay, I’ll go along with that. I usually deal with construction 70’s and newer.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Long shot but I had to replace all the ground fault breakers in a panel once after a thunderstorm. Weird.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I find the tracer to be helpful in the mix of commercial and residential service I do. It's not 100% absolute, but fairly accurate. Like any fancy test gizmo we get, it takes some practice to be proficient with it. Otherwise, I think we are pretty creative as a group in finding things that aren't working and why.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If you do the backfeed thing, Hack, make sure you turn on all the light switches.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

ppsh said:


> Are you sure you have found EVERY gfci?


Pretty sure, but I'll really do a thorough check and double check myself on that.



ppsh said:


> If that fails, check to see if there is continuity form neutral to ground the dead outlet.


I do remember testing for this and there is unfortunately no continuity between neutral and ground.



99cents said:


> Backfeed the receptacle from a dedicated circuit like the washing machine (maybe use Romex with a cord end on it). Shut off all remaining 120V circuits. Wander around with your NCVT (or use your live wire detector). FWIW, live wire detectors aren’t very reliable but maybe that’s just my experience.


What do you mean exactly by wondering around with my NCVT? I will say, I've checked every outlet in the house and outside and every single one is reading live wires with my NCVT. All the outlets around the plug I went the extra step and read 120v with my meter. I'm pretty sure it's the only outlet on that property that is reading 0 volts, and all breakers are on.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> What do you mean exactly by wondering around with my NCVT?


 If you shut off all of the circuits int he house and backfeed that dead outlet, you can then go around with your tick tracer to see where you have live power. That will help you figure out where the dead outlet is wired from.



> I will say, I've checked every outlet in the house and outside and every single one is reading live wires with my NCVT. All the outlets around the plug I went the extra step and read 120v with my meter. I'm pretty sure it's the only outlet on that property that is reading 0 volts, and all breakers are on.


Are you just testing power at the outlet face? Or opening up the outlet and checking the wiring in the box? An outlet might have power to it, but the power leaving it might be broken.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> Pretty sure, but I'll really do a thorough check and double check myself on that.
> 
> 
> I do remember testing for this and there is unfortunately no continuity between neutral and ground.
> ...


You said you had a live wire detector so why wouldn’t you energize the wire?

My guess is that you backfeed that circuit and find the live end in the panel (using your NCVT).


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> You said you had a live wire detector so why wouldn’t you energize the wire?
> 
> My guess is that you backfeed that circuit and find the live end in the panel (using your NCVT).


Yes but if I turn off all the breakers and energize that one plug, the power won't be able to make it's way back to the panel. Because right now all the breakers in the panel are all on and working fine, and that plug is dead. So at some point the power from the panel stops and isn't making its way to the plug. I've also checked all the plugs in the house and they are all working fine, and all lighting in the house is working fine as well. So the circuit feeding that one plug stops somewhere, before reaching the panel.

I feel like I'm basically forced to have to use a circuit tracer that traces wires through walls. I've opened up all the plugs and switches anywhere near this dead plug, and they all seam to be just fine. 

Before I turned out, she said she had hired 2 different electricians before me and none of them could figure it out lol... That's why I must figure this out


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

JasonCo said:


> Yes but if I turn off all the breakers and energize that one plug, the power won't be able to make it's way back to the panel. Because right now all the breakers in the panel are all on and working fine, and that plug is dead. So at some point the power from the panel stops and isn't making its way to the plug. I've also checked all the plugs in the house and they are all working fine, and all lighting in the house is working fine as well. So the circuit feeding that one plug stops somewhere, before reaching the panel.
> 
> I feel like I'm basically forced to have to use a circuit tracer that traces wires through walls. I've opened up all the plugs and switches anywhere near this dead plug, and they all seam to be just fine.
> 
> Before I turned out, she said she had hired 2 different electricians before me and none of them could figure it out lol... That's why I must figure this out


Just a quick simple question when the last time did that house done some remodeling ?

that may give you some clue how long it been out .,, 

is that house is on the slab or it have crawl space or basement ( I dont know if they have a lot of them in Texas ) if basement it may be little easier to find it. 

a lot of members they posted have few good pointers to slove the issue and I am with 99 I have same idea as he was descruibing just run the whole thing in reverse you can able find the splice for it ., 

did you notice which way the cable came in the box coming from top or bottom ? that may give you a clue a general direction which way someone ran cable that time.

Bon Chance to find it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> Yes but if I turn off all the breakers and energize that one plug, the power won't be able to make it's way back to the panel. Because right now all the breakers in the panel are all on and working fine, and that plug is dead. So at some point the power from the panel stops and isn't making its way to the plug. I've also checked all the plugs in the house and they are all working fine, and all lighting in the house is working fine as well. So the circuit feeding that one plug stops somewhere, before reaching the panel.
> 
> I feel like I'm basically forced to have to use a circuit tracer that traces wires through walls. I've opened up all the plugs and switches anywhere near this dead plug, and they all seam to be just fine.
> 
> Before I turned out, she said she had hired 2 different electricians before me and none of them could figure it out lol... That's why I must figure this out


Nothing makes sense with troubleshooting until it does.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Amprobe AT2005 is a old school tracer that could find that in less than 5 minutes.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Nothing makes sense with troubleshooting until it does.


What's going on? When did you become the troubleshooting genius? I thought you didn't do it, but here you are kicking ass :biggrin:

As for the OP, that outside outlet might have been fed from some random junction box in the attic, like the pullchain light, or the air handler feed. There are so many possibilities. But I still have my money on it being disconnected before the area was re-finished.


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## zoltan (Mar 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> No luck? Now it might be time to start cutting holes. I use a 4" holesaw and then a small piece of wood to screw the plug back in when I am done. Make a hole inside behind the outlet to see where the wire is going, then follow along.
> 
> 
> 
> :biggrin:


If the box for the exterior recep is a NO you can use a hacksaw blade or sawzall (careful w/sawzall tho) to cut the nails and remove the box to give you an inspection point as well. Use your beater to pry the box a little off the stud and cut away.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> What's going on? When did you become the troubleshooting genius? I thought you didn't do it, but here you are kicking ass :biggrin:


I get lots of practice fixing my own blunders


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> I have gone a long time without needing one of those expensive tracers. I don't think it is a necessity.
> 
> Plug an extension cord into a good outlet and bring the female end out to the bad outlet, see if the neutral and ground are connected. Someone might have disconnect that outlet completely.
> 
> ...





99cents said:


> Looking for hard to find splice boxes is a last resort because splices rarely come apart on their own (and, no, I don’t want to resurrect the burying junction boxes discussion).





HackWork said:


> It actually happens often in my experience. A poor splice was made, then after years of it heating and cooling, expanding and contracting, it finally comes apart. Most of the time it was very old wiring that was clearly spliced by someone who didn't know how to make a decent splice.


Wait though, Hack, you're the one who said burying junction boxes is fine because a properly done splice will never come apart, but now you're saying you come across splices that have come apart quite frequently. I understand that's probably because they weren't done as well as your premium grade a bulletproof splices, but that's the point of the rule. Splices sometimes come apart. It doesn't matter that you have the utmost confidence in your own abilities.

Sorry 99

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> Wait though, Hack, you're the one who said burying junction boxes is fine because a properly done splice will never come apart.


 Yes, I was very clear when I said a properly made, bullet-proof splice, made by a professional. Something that will never come apart.



> but now you're saying you come across splices that have come apart quite frequently


 Yes, I was also clear when I said "A poor splice was made". Something made by someone who didn't know what they were doing, a spice that you would expect to come apart over time.

Two *completely different* things. Each one on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Now can you troll elsewhere? Start a new thread instead of crapping this one.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Yes, I was very clear when I said a properly made, bullet-proof splice, made by a professional. Something that will never come apart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out what I see as hypocrisy on your part. Anyway we know each other's differing opinion on this issue. I'm not trying to crap the thread. You're quick to jump on people when you feel they've contradicted themselves, sorry if you don't like the taste of your own medicine. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out what I see as hypocrisy on your part.


 It's not in any way hypocritical.

I know what the code is, I choose to break it in certain situations in which I am 100% sure that it will not be an issue.

The fact that a handyman can't make a good splice doesn't change anything, and it doesn't come into play in the situation at hand.



> You're quick to jump on people when you feel they've contradicted themselves, sorry if you don't like the taste of your own medicine.


I have not contradicted myself. I pointed out how the two situations are completely different. And now I will point out how you have not refuted that, you have spent this last post attacking me instead of the technical aspect of it.

You are comparing an 11 year old trying to cook something to a 4 course meal prepared by a trained, skilled, and experienced chef. It's two completely different things that you can't compare.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

My parents had a switch in their house that never work for ten years they bought the house brand new . Turned out that when they set the finish when they striped wires for the switch they cut it . It looked good until I went to disconnect it and it lit up the lights then popped apart . Here is the kicker . It was on a 4 way and they back fed it to make the hall lights work . I guess they thought it was a good connection and did what they did to pass inspection . 

I hate troubleshooting . 9 times out of 10 it al comes down to stupid did what stupid did . We are working on a building built in 1868 right now and I have had my fill of fixing . From knob and tube to pipe and wire to Romex . I have found some weird stuff in that building . The worst part is trying to teach guys how to troubleshoot . Where you are looking aint where the problem is most of the time . 

I have several double male cords just for this purpose .


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> My parents had a switch in their house that never work for ten years they bought the house brand new . Turned out that when they set the finish when they striped wires for the switch they cut it . It looked good until I went to disconnect it and it lit up the lights then popped apart . Here is the kicker . It was on a 4 way and they back fed it to make the hall lights work . I guess they thought it was a good connection and did what they did to pass inspection .
> 
> I hate troubleshooting . 9 times out of 10 it al comes down to stupid did what stupid did . We are working on a building built in 1868 right now and I have had my fill of fixing . From knob and tube to pipe and wire to Romex . I have found some weird stuff in that building . The worst part is trying to teach guys how to troubleshoot . Where you are looking aint where the problem is most of the time .
> 
> I have several double male cords just for this purpose .


First of all electricity wasn't around (being used) in 1868. What's going on with this site?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

zac said:


> First of all electricity wasn't around (being used) in 1868. What's going on with this site?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


They have added light fixtures to the insides of Cheops so tourists don't fall on their ass. * 






* I made that up.


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

zac said:


> First of all electricity wasn't around (being used) in 1868. What's going on with this site?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


They also didn't have indoor plumbing .


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> They also didn't have indoor plumbing .


Thanks goodness for Mr. Crapper!

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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

zac said:


> Thanks goodness for Mr. Crapper!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It is actually pretty fascinating to see the evolution of modern society as through the trades over 150 + years . They also had no nails . The stone front is carved by hand and the timber used was brought in as redwood logs and milled on site . by hand . Phone lines over time . It is neat .


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> It is actually pretty fascinating to see the evolution of modern society as through the trades over 150 + years . They also had no nails . The stone front is carved by hand and the timber used was brought in as redwood logs and milled on site . by hand . Phone lines over time . It is neat .


Yes my friend. 
2000 years ago man traveled the speed of horseback, grew crops for clothes etc..
200 years ago the same. 
Today man travels at the speed of sound, 
Communicates by ( guessing) the speed of light (or pretty darn close) and creates his own fibers for clothing etc...
Interesting times indeed. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

zac said:


> Yes my friend.
> 2000 years ago man traveled the speed of horseback, grew crops for clothes etc..
> 200 years ago the same.
> Today man travels at the speed of sound,
> ...


WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER. iT ONLY GETS BETTER AND BETTER!



We are sorry citizen, but because of your infraction, you had two citizen points deducted from your social score and therefore cannot purchase airline tickets at this time.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok, this should have stopped right here. When the OP said there was no continuity between neutral and ground at the outlet. Go find that tripped or bad GFCI!!!





ppsh said:


> If that fails, check to see if there is continuity form neutral to ground the dead outlet. If you have continuity that means that at least the neutral and ground are making it back to the panel.





JasonCo said:


> I do remember testing for this and there is unfortunately no continuity between neutral and ground.


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## ppsh (Jan 2, 2014)

A Little Short said:


> Ok, this should have stopped right here. When the OP said there was no continuity between neutral and ground at the outlet. Go find that tripped or bad GFCI!!!


Didn't give it much thought, but does a gfci disconnect both hot and neutral? I believe a gfci breaker does not break the neutral, not sure about receptacles.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Ok, this should have stopped right here. When the OP said there was no continuity between neutral and ground at the outlet. Go find that tripped or bad GFCI!!!





ppsh said:


> Didn't give it much thought, but does a gfci disconnect both hot and neutral? I believe a gfci breaker does not break the neutral, not sure about receptacles.


Does it disconnect the neutral? I'd like to know.

When he said no continuity between the neutral and ground, I took it as either the outlet was never connected after a renovation or whoever spliced the outlet into some random box didn't connect it correctly.

I have seen plenty of times in which someone ran a new romex to an existing junction box fed with BX cable. Since there were no other ground in the box, they didn't know what to do with the ground int heir new romex, so they just smoosh it into the back of the box lol.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I forgot about you guys and your plastic boxes. Now it makes sense to me why neutral to ground continuity is a clue.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

gpop said:


> Amprobe AT2005 is a old school tracer that could find that in less than 5 minutes.


He already has a live circuit tester. I don’t know why he doesn’t fire that wire up instead of spending big money on a dead circuit tracer.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

ppsh said:


> Didn't give it much thought, but does a gfci disconnect both hot and neutral? I believe a gfci breaker does not break the neutral, not sure about receptacles.





HackWork said:


> Does it disconnect the neutral? I'd like to know.
> 
> When he said no continuity between the neutral and ground, I took it as either the outlet was never connected after a renovation or whoever spliced the outlet into some random box didn't connect it correctly.
> 
> I have seen plenty of times in which someone ran a new romex to an existing junction box fed with BX cable. Since there were no other ground in the box, they didn't know what to do with the ground int heir new romex, so they just smoosh it into the back of the box lol.


Yes, a GFCI receptacle breaks both the hot and neutral. That's one of the first things I check when troubleshooting a dead receptacle, to check for continuity between neutral and ground. If there is none, then I know to look for a tripped/bad GFCI receptacle somewhere. That's not to say a ground wasn't left off, just gives me a starting point to look.

In a sense, a GFCI breaker also does as the circuit neutral lands on the breaker and you would show no continuity between neutral/ground at the load. Neutral current flows through the GFCI breaker.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I would rather do troubleshooting than hang ceiling fans. Last week I hung three ceiling fans. I hate my life.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

So I went back to the house but didn't have much time to troubleshoot that plug. There's 4 outside wall sconces that are a piece of crap that they wanted to replace with better new ones. 2 flood lights in the same boat, and 2 pool lights in the same situation. Also 2 hanging lights in the kitchen she wants to replace as well with new ones. 

This is my parents house by the way, they are selling the house next year and want to sell it for top dollar o_0 and want everything new and looking good basically. So even though my mind was basically thinking about the damn plug the entire time, I didn't have time. I went back and ended up going to lowes and buying all these new lights and was able to install half of them the next day.

I pulled out her pull lights (thank god they pulled out!) and am ordering new ones now. I tried to talk her into low voltage LED but after explaining the price difference, she wants to go with just straight 120v. That's fine, but I told her that her lights are ran off of the load side of a GFCI outlet and that goes against code. If the lights are 15v+, you must have a GFCI breaker. So yeah, that's an extra $40 if she goes the 120v route.

But back to the plug. I literally checked every crevice in the house, outside and inside. There is no tripped GFCI breakers ... She hasn't done any house renovations at all. She just said one day the plug just randomly stopped working. They used to plug an outside fountain into it so they knew exactly when it stopped. No renovations or anything. 

The issue with me using a dedicated circuit to power up that plug and trace it. Is I have a circuit tracer for live circuits but it only traces the circuit at the panel. In this case, all breakers are on and working just fine so if I power up that plug, it's not making its way back to the panel I assume. I've checked all the plugs in the house, they are all working just fine. All lights are working just fine. Any switch around that plug is wired fine. This is a real mystery. A couple plugs I haven't opened up yet and will do it next weekend (or tomorrow, depending if I have work...). 

I need a bit more time to troubleshoot this. But there's absolutely no way I'm letting this slide without an answer. Will be back at it as soon as I possibly can.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Look in the most obvious place for a GFCI receptacle such as the garage, basement, outside, that might be feeding the dead receptacle. I know you said everything else works, but GFCIs can fail on the load side. Make sure all the GFCI receps you check work on both the line and load side.
I probably would pull them out with the wires still attached and check with a meter on the load side.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

A Little Short said:


> Look in the most obvious place for a GFCI receptacle such as the garage, basement, outside, that might be feeding the dead receptacle. I know you said everything else works, but GFCIs can fail on the load side. Make sure all the GFCI receps you check work on both the line and load side.
> I probably would pull them out with the wires still attached and check with a meter on the load side.


hmm yeah didn't try that. Good call. I just assumed load side is fine if the GFCI is functioning fine.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

JasonCo said:


> I've checked all the plugs in the house, they are all working just fine. All lights are working just fine. Any switch around that plug is wired fine. This is a real mystery. A couple plugs I haven't opened up yet and will do it next weekend (or tomorrow, depending if I have work...).
> 
> I need a bit more time to troubleshoot this. But there's absolutely no way I'm letting this slide without an answer. Will be back at it as soon as I possibly can.


You may never find the problem. A wire damaged back when it was installed may have finally broken, inside a wall. 

Personally, I'd figure out the best way to re-feed it, and disconnect/cap the old wiring.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dan the electricman said:


> You may never find the problem. A wire damaged back when it was installed may have finally broken, inside a wall.
> 
> Personally, I'd figure out the best way to re-feed it, and disconnect/cap the old wiring.


 Yup, that’s why after an hour of troubleshooting I will often go to the customer to discuss spending any further time on a workaround instead of wasting more time looking for something that I might never find. 

Any random screw or nail could have clipped that wire just enough to have it heat up and then break after years of use.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Dan the electricman said:


> You may never find the problem. A wire damaged back when it was installed may have finally broken, inside a wall.
> 
> Personally, I'd figure out the best way to re-feed it, and disconnect/cap the old wiring.


Yeah luckily there is a switch that feeds an outside flood light that has a constant hot going to it, switch is inside. It's directly above that dead plug outside. I was thinking about taking the constant off that and feeding the plug. The thing is that the problem can be easily solved, but I just can't get over the fact that I cant figure out the issue of that romex. It's eating me alive, I must figure it out. As a new electrician that's really passionate about the trade, I'm just too damn curious and can't let it go lol

Edit: I will say, that switch that's inside and above that dead plug. There is 2 switches, one feeds a sconce light right outside the door and the other feeds a flood light. There are 2 more romex in there as well, one is the constant hot and the last romex, I have no idea where it goes. In my head when I map out the wiring, there is literally no where else it could go other than that bad plug. I've disconnected the power from that romex to see if it goes to any other plugs inside and all plugs are reading 120v even with that romex disconnected in that switch. I did a continuity test between the hot/neutral/ground and I don't read anything. Makes me wonder if that romex does go down to that plug and the wires burned off inside the wall. It's just weird that it isn't tripping the breaker or none of the wires are touching together or anything. Hmm....


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

So it never occurred to you to mention this earlier? :laughing: 





JasonCo said:


> Edit: I will say, that switch that's inside and above that dead plug. There is 2 switches, one feeds a sconce light right outside the door and the other feeds a flood light. *There are 2 more romex in there as well, one is the constant hot and the last romex, I have no idea where it goes. *In my head when I map out the wiring, there is literally no where else it could go other than that bad plug. I've disconnected the power from that romex to see if it goes to any other plugs inside and all plugs are reading 120v even with that romex disconnected in that switch. I did a continuity test between the hot/neutral/ground and I don't read anything. Makes me wonder if that romex does go down to that plug and the wires burned off inside the wall. It's just weird that it isn't tripping the breaker or none of the wires are touching together or anything. Hmm....


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dan the electricman said:


> You may never find the problem. A wire damaged back when it was installed may have finally broken, inside a wall.
> 
> Personally, I'd figure out the best way to re-feed it, and disconnect/cap the old wiring.


The problem being that, once he has figured out how to cap off the old wiring, he has figured out how to fix it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> The problem being that, once he has figured out how to cap off the old wiring, he has figured out how to fix it.


There's no need to fix it. Cap off and abandon the old wiring, run a new cable.

He said that there is a switchbox with 120V feed directly behind it in the house. That's probably where the issue is coming from, but let's say that it wasn't. He can just snake a cable from that box to the outlet, cap off the old feed, and be done in less than an hour.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> There's no need to fix it. Cap off and abandon the old wiring, run a new cable.
> 
> He said that there is a switchbox with 120V feed directly behind it in the house. That's probably where the issue is coming from, but let's say that it wasn't. He can just snake a cable from that box to the outlet, cap off the old feed, and be done in less than an hour.


How does he know it’s the old feed unless he finds both ends? In the old days they insulated with wood chips. Not good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> How does he know it’s the old feed unless he finds both ends? In the old days they insulated with wood chips. Not good.


He knows it's the old feed because he takes it off of the terminals on the outlet. He caps them off. He doesn't need to find the other end, no one may ever find the other end.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> He knows it's the old feed because he takes it off of the terminals on the outlet. He caps them off. He doesn't need to find the other end, no one may ever find the other end.


You said that’s “probably” where the issue is.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You said that’s “probably” where the issue is.


No, I said this:



> That's probably where the issue is coming from, *but let's say that it wasn't.*


The point is to abandon the old wiring and run a new feed from the switchbox. 

After an hour of troubleshooting this issue, that is what I would have done instead of spending many more hours trying to find something that might never be found.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> No, I said this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You haven’t eliminated the possibility of a damaged wire arcing and sparking in a wall or attic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

```

```



99cents said:


> You haven’t eliminated the possibility of a damaged wire arcing and sparking in a wall or attic.


 You have if you abandon it.

Many things like this are simply untouched for years, sometimes decades. Capping those wires off so no load is pulled through them makes it safer, not worse.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> You have if you abandon it.
> ...


This one quit working recently. Besides that, I am unconvinced with your “probably” argument. Every wire has two ends and he only found one (probably).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> This one quit working recently. Besides that, I am unconvinced with your “probably” argument.


 I understand this was recently, but I am speaking in general.

As for this “probably argument” that you invented, I don’t have one. I’ve explained it twice already. Let me try once more for you:

I think that the issue in his mothers house is probably in that switchbox. However, for the sake of this discussion alone, I am pretending that the issue is somewhere else in the house. With that in mind, I would just run a new feed down from that switch box to refeed the dead outlet. 

You see? There is no “probably argument“.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You edited your post:


99cents said:


> Every wire has two ends and he only found one (probably).


 Yes, we know every wire has two ends. But we don’t know where the other end of that wire is. We also don’t know where the issue that is causing the outlet to be dead is. It could be anywhere in the house, buried behind the wall with a screw through it.

So in this situation, before spending all day trying to find something that we might never find, I will typically talk to the customer after an hour of searching and give them the option to cap off the old feed and re-feed the outlet. 

You may not agree with that, but do you really not understand what I’m saying? How many times do you want me to explain it? This is when I think you have to be trolling, probably.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I think you’re probably pretending.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If a horse breaks its leg, you can shoot the horse, but that don't fix the leg.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

splatz said:


> If a horse breaks its leg, you can shoot the horse, but that don't fix the leg.



This important wisdom may need some more words. 



There is definitely something to be said for doing the replacement, which takes a certain very predictable amount of time, rather than keep trying to find and repair, which may take forever. 



However, if the failure has created some dangerous situation, you have fixed the receptacle but you have not mitigated the danger. 



It's not something they'd condemn the house over, but it's at least something the homeowner should be aware of, and make an informed decision about whether to let it be or keep digging.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

In all my days I've NEVER not solved a bad circuit in less than an hour -- usually MUCH less.

The OP's technique is flawed.

Kill all power in the area. That's right.

Then you can use a toner & wand // fox & hound and start to really fly.

The OP's gross error has been to leave energized circuits anywhere near where he's doping things out. 

Once you stop doing that stupid %$#@ things go fast.

In Romex World, you can trace everything every which way -- FAST.

Opens pop out right before your eyes.

Our OP has either an open Hot or Neutral.

&&&&&&&

To the OP: for heaven's sake bring along an extension cord -- or two.

Plug the into a sweet receptacle. Then use it as a reference. 

It then becomes idiot obvious what the issue is: Hot or Neutral.

(The OP hasn't even figured that much out.)

Hots and Neutrals are tackled differently.

If he PMs me, I'll go into this further.

Sheesh.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

telsa said:


> In all my days I've NEVER not solved a bad circuit in less than an hour -- usually MUCH less.
> 
> The OP's technique is flawed.
> 
> ...


THERE it is. I was wondering when this post was coming. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

The neutral to ground isn't reading continuity so seams to be the neutral (or ground I guess...) that is open somewhere down the line. It's clear the hot is open as well seeing how all breakers are on and the plug is reading 0 volts on any given wire. Also there house is far from mine, I can't just pop in whenever. I've spent about 45 minutes on this troubleshoot last weekend on a Saturday, but stopped because I had 25 other things to install so I could leave with some actual work done. My brother and wife and their kid were also visiting so I was unable to turn off the house, all while my dad was busy writing up a resume on the computer for a job interview coming up. I just haven't made it back yet. I guess I have 15 minutes to figure this out now. No need for the insults!



telsa said:


> In all my days I've NEVER not solved a bad circuit in less than an hour -- usually MUCH less.


You are an electrical savant if you speak the truth. I'm 4 years and 4 months into this trade. Not sure if you do a lot of commercial work but troubleshooting over an hour can sometimes be unavoidable.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> The neutral to ground isn't reading continuity so seams to be the neutral (or ground I guess...) that is open somewhere down the line. It's clear the hot is open as well seeing how all breakers are on and the plug is reading 0 volts on any given wire. Also there house is far from mine, I can't just pop in whenever. I've spent about 45 minutes on this troubleshoot last weekend on a Saturday, but stopped because I had 25 other things to install so I could leave with some actual work done. My brother and wife and their kid were also visiting so I was unable to turn off the house, all while my dad was busy writing up a resume on the computer for a job interview coming up. I just haven't made it back yet. I guess I have 15 minutes to figure this out now. No need for the insults!
> 
> 
> 
> You are an electrical savant if you speak the truth. I'm 4 years and 4 months into this trade. Not sure if you do a lot of commercial work but troubleshooting over an hour can sometimes be unavoidable.


As others have asked....
Have you taken an extension cord to your problem receptacle to check to a known reference? Have you checked voltage on the load screws of adjacent GFI's? 
There has been a ton of great suggestions on how others with probably a combined 250+ years (guessing) of experience have given you what they'd do.. This is a receptacle that is not working and IMO, this shouldn't take days to troubleshoot. It's one of the most basic devices we work on as electricians. Don't trust what someone may have told you they did to the circuit. Believe it with your own eyes. Do some work and take the receptacles out and do some troubleshooting.. Draw it out with what you know, if you need to..


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

JasonCo said:


> The neutral to ground isn't reading continuity so seams to be the neutral (or ground I guess...) that is open somewhere down the line. It's clear the hot is open as well seeing how all breakers are on and the plug is reading 0 volts on any given wire. Also there house is far from mine, I can't just pop in whenever. I've spent about 45 minutes on this troubleshoot last weekend on a Saturday, but stopped because I had 25 other things to install so I could leave with some actual work done. My brother and wife and their kid were also visiting so I was unable to turn off the house, all while my dad was busy writing up a resume on the computer for a job interview coming up. I just haven't made it back yet. I guess I have 15 minutes to figure this out now. No need for the insults!



If you're insistent on finding the problem and not just running a new feed then you need to dig in and follow some of the advise given. I would almost bet my last tool in the bag that you either have a tripped GFCI or, as I said earlier, a GFCI that has a failed load side. I say this because you said...........
1) no continuity from ground to neutral
2) it stopped suddenly


What I would do is this:
Do as Telsa said and turn off the power (give your brother a flashlight and tell your Dad to save his work and turn off the computer)
Take the wires off the dead receptacle and put your transmitter from the Toner/Wand kit on two of the wires, try hot neutral first


Try to get a reading in the wall or ground at the dead recep, move along listening for the tone, if you can't hear it, go on to all the receptacles and switches near and see if you pick up a tone. If you don't find a tone, go back and try hot & ground, then neutral ground. You should be able to find a tone somewhere, search till you find one.


If there is a garage go there and look behind boxes, shelves, anything along the wall that could hide a recep (GFCI). Take your wand there as well and use it.



I don't know what else to tell you if you can't find it using this method.


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## crknjk (Aug 21, 2015)

I use a Mastech MS6818. It works great. Found a corroded hot in a direct buried UF 6" under ground. Found the exact spot where the wire was corroded through. Got it on amazon.


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## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

99cents said:


> I would rather do troubleshooting than hang ceiling fans. Last week I hung three ceiling fans. I hate my life.


I ****ing hate ceiling fans..ugh


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## CWL (Jul 7, 2020)

I wonder if the OP ever figured the problem out?


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