# Old work fixture support box??



## papaotis

depends on the weight of the fixture. if the arent rated for a fixture what are they for?


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## NJSparky

Straight from Carlon's website
What is the weight limit for your old work round box #B618R if you are
hanging a light fixture from the ceiling.
The B618R is a round old work outlet box and is not listed for fixture support in
the ceiling. Only approved ceiling boxes are allowed to support fixtures in the
ceiling. These boxes will be permitted to support a minimum weight of 50
pounds. The B618R can be used in the ceiling as a junction box. Do not hang a
fixture from it since it relies on the strength of the ceiling itself


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## backstay

If you're talking about a blue winged box, they are not listed for fixture support.


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## papaotis

and those answered my question. satisfied?


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## telsa

NJSparky said:


> I do a lot of high end kitchens with pendants over islands and locating them exactly during the rough is next to impossible since sometimes they get moved to make walkways larger. I usually leave coils of wire in the ceiling and let the rockers cover it, then cut in old work ceiling boxes on the final. I haven't had any issues with inspectors until now, he's calling me out on the fact that they're not rated for a fixture. how is everyone else going about this? I'm always open to new ideas. Thx


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-Retro-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Ceiling-Box-936/203743171

This ^^^ is the kind of old work box suited for pendants.

If a beam is right in the way -- go with a classic pancake -- perhaps with some additional blocking.


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## NJSparky

I'm only having this issue in 1 town, he told me if i was gonna old work them, i had to use a fan support box or a pancake right on the joist. Than I bet he bangs me for box fill with the pancake since they're daisy chained.


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## NJSparky

telsa said:


> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-Retro-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Ceiling-Box-936/203743171
> 
> This ^^^ is the kind of old work box suited for pendants.
> 
> If a beam is right in the way -- go with a classic pancake -- perhaps with some additional blocking.


Thx, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.


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## telsa

NJSparky said:


> I'm only having this issue in 1 town, he told me if i was gonna old work them, i had to use a fan support box or a pancake right on the joist. Than I bet he bangs me for box fill with the pancake since they're daisy chained.


There's a general tendency to forget that many listed fixtures actually have a cubic inch allowance for conductors -- THEMSELVES.

In this, they are very much like mud rings/ plaster rings -- which also have a cubic inch allowance.

You may have to poke around, but the typical pendant has as much wire space to work with as the pancake, itself. When this is true, daisy chaining 14-2 is not going to bust through the Code limit.


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## Jay82304

Speaking of crappy blue boxes, can someone tell me what they have used this box for or if anyone has? A switch fed by a switch loop with 14/2 would still be a violation of code by exceeding the 8ci box fill? I've never seen one used.

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-G...witch-and-Outlet-Box-Blue-B108B-UPC/100404057


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## Sparky J

Jay82304 said:


> Speaking of crappy blue boxes, can someone tell me what they have used this box for or if anyone has? A switch fed by a switch loop with 14/2 would still be a violation of code by exceeding the 8ci box fill? I've never seen one used.
> 
> I've seen a few usually used by Joe the handy man who knows no better, they usually get ripped out for the correct box.
> 
> On a different note to the OP watch the fixture canopies cubic capacity. Doesn't it have to be stamped inside somewhere? Just saying as the inspector sounds like a d#ck.


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## LGLS

NJSparky said:


> I'm only having this issue in 1 town, he told me if i was gonna old work them, i had to use a fan support box or a pancake right on the joist. Than I bet he bangs me for box fill with the pancake since they're daisy chained.


 I suggest you either hone your ceiling layout skills and eliminate the problem alltogether


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## ponyboy

IslandGuy said:


> I suggest you either hone your ceiling layout skills and eliminate the problem alltogether



Ten four. Buy a laser bob and tell those ****ers you're laying out the ceiling with the plans you were given and if it changes there will be charges. If they're that high end they shouldn't mind paying you to get the pendants right on the nuts. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tceek

What about the allied flange boxes 

http://www.alliedmoulded.com/catalo...cal-boxes/ceiling-fixture-support-boxes/9305/


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## canadian-dj

ponyboy said:


> Ten four. Buy a laser bob and tell those ****ers you're laying out the ceiling with the plans you were given and if it changes there will be charges. If they're that high end they shouldn't mind paying you to get the pendants right on the nuts.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was just about to say this


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## 99cents

ponyboy said:


> Ten four. Buy a laser bob and tell those ****ers you're laying out the ceiling with the plans you were given and if it changes there will be charges. If they're that high end they shouldn't mind paying you to get the pendants right on the nuts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Exactly. If they want it moved after the fact, it's a service call and they can do the patching.

Laser plumbs rock  .


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## backstay

tceek said:


> What about the allied flange boxes
> 
> http://www.alliedmoulded.com/catalo...cal-boxes/ceiling-fixture-support-boxes/9305/


How is that going in as old work?


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## electricmanscott

Boxes for ceiling fixtures have to be rated to support 50 pounds minimum. I don't think I've seen an old work box that has that rating. 314.27(A)(2)


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## telsa

Jay82304 said:


> Speaking of crappy blue boxes, can someone tell me what they have used this box for or if anyone has? A switch fed by a switch loop with 14/2 would still be a violation of code by exceeding the 8ci box fill? I've never seen one used.
> 
> http://t.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-G...witch-and-Outlet-Box-Blue-B108B-UPC/100404057


For LV use, and not too many of those.

You'd go that way if there was a filthy stud bay (retro re-hab) and you wanted to box-in for a door-bell/ intercom/ CAT 5e -- and shield the connection from falling junk.

It also can handle a 14-2 switch-leg: 

In 2"
Out 2"
Yoke 2"
Ground 2"
Sum: 8"

No neutral, of course.

It's a size shunned by ECs, of course.


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## telsa

electricmanscott said:


> Boxes for ceiling fixtures have to be rated to support 50 pounds minimum. I don't think I've seen an old work box that has that rating. 314.27(A)(2)



"Brace is designed for maximum support load of 75 lbs. ceiling fans or 110 lbs. light fixture on 16 in. joist span."


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-Retro-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Ceiling-Box-936/203743171

Strictly speaking, this IS an old work box designed for cutting in.

The technique presumes a hole-saw penetration -- and then the gadget is worked up and through the hole -- the arm, first -- and cranked into position between the lumber. This puppy can even reach out to 24" O.C. joists.

Its design causes it to sit -- just 'so' -- Then the box itself is anchored to the bracing bar -- which then puts the face of the box in the correct spot.

Before the box is shoved up, the Romex is stubbed into it, some slack is permitted in old work situations, of course.

&&&&&&

Many j-men could go years at a stretch without touching one of these puppies. They really are a one-trick pony.

Wall sconces use a different old work box entirely, as the brace is no help in a wall cavity.


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## nrp3

Smart boxes can be an option. If you are in a home with strapping they make boxes that account for the extra depth. There are fan pancakes that will give you extra depth on one side. Lots of options.


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## Jay82304

telsa said:


> For LV use, and not too many of those.
> 
> You'd go that way if there was a filthy stud bay (retro re-hab) and you wanted to box-in for a door-bell/ intercom/ CAT 5e -- and shield the connection from falling junk.
> 
> It also can handle a 14-2 switch-leg:
> 
> In 2"
> Out 2"
> Yoke 2"
> Ground 2"
> Sum: 8"
> 
> No neutral, of course.
> 
> It's a size shunned by ECs, of course.


14/2w g= 6"
Switch = 1 yoke is 2 conductor volumes = 4"
Total = 10 cu inches which would violate the 8" full capacity


The LV idea makes sense though. I just can't seem to understand why they even bothered making those boxes. They are clearly made for handymen and hacks who don't know what or care about box fill calcs


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## electricmanscott

telsa said:


> "Brace is designed for maximum support load of 75 lbs. ceiling fans or 110 lbs. light fixture on 16 in. joist span."
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-Retro-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Ceiling-Box-936/203743171
> 
> Strictly speaking, this IS an old work box designed for cutting in.
> 
> The technique presumes a hole-saw penetration -- and then the gadget is worked up and through the hole -- the arm, first -- and cranked into position between the lumber. This puppy can even reach out to 24" O.C. joists.
> 
> Its design causes it to sit -- just 'so' -- Then the box itself is anchored to the bracing bar -- which then puts the face of the box in the correct spot.
> 
> Before the box is shoved up, the Romex is stubbed into it, some slack is permitted in old work situations, of course.
> 
> &&&&&&
> 
> Many j-men could go years at a stretch without touching one of these puppies. They really are a one-trick pony.
> 
> Wall sconces use a different old work box entirely, as the brace is no help in a wall cavity.




Wow thanks :blink:


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## backstay

telsa said:


> "Brace is designed for maximum support load of 75 lbs. ceiling fans or 110 lbs. light fixture on 16 in. joist span."
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-Retro-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Ceiling-Box-936/203743171
> 
> Strictly speaking, this IS an old work box designed for cutting in.
> 
> The technique presumes a hole-saw penetration -- and then the gadget is worked up and through the hole -- the arm, first -- and cranked into position between the lumber. This puppy can even reach out to 24" O.C. joists.
> 
> Its design causes it to sit -- just 'so' -- Then the box itself is anchored to the bracing bar -- which then puts the face of the box in the correct spot.
> 
> Before the box is shoved up, the Romex is stubbed into it, some slack is permitted in old work situations, of course.
> 
> &&&&&&
> 
> Many j-men could go years at a stretch without touching one of these puppies. They really are a one-trick pony.
> 
> Wall sconces use a different old work box entirely, as the brace is no help in a wall cavity.


Some slack in old work? Wire fished in walls is all slack, not required to fasten.


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## Shockdoc

I use black Slater round boxes, they are rated for 5lb fixture support. 
I do the same practice for kitchen islands and peninsulas.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


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## telsa

backstay said:


> Some slack in old work? Wire fished in walls is all slack, not required to fasten.


Heh.


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## NJSparky

Shockdoc said:


> I use black Slater round boxes, they are rated for 5lb fixture support.
> I do the same practice for kitchen islands and peninsulas.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


Got a part number and or some documentation for this? Thx


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## Griff

What about something like this?
http://m.platt.com/platt-electric-s...ed-Moulded/9338-ESKT/Products.aspx?pid=349148


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