# Quality of work



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Keep in mind at least half of the unions guys were not trained union.
They were organized long after they were licensed.
That being said I tend to believe non-union apprentices get a lot more exposure to electrical work than union guys do. Especially in the first two years.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

non union electricians know how.

union electricians know how, but they also know why.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

rewire said:


> non union electricians know how.
> 
> union electricians know how, but they also know why.


Again...a blanket statement....


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## Mikeomo (May 7, 2009)

rewire said:


> non union electricians know how.
> 
> union electricians know how, but they also know why.


Not true, on top of OJT I spend 6 hrs per week in class plus study time learning the "why's"... Doesn't this union vs. non, one being better than another (or not) *EVER* get old? It has more to do with the caliber of the person than whether they are union or not.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

I would say years back that it would have been true that union work was better then non-union work. But today I do not think that to be true any more, and I am almost to the point of saying non-union work is better then union today, I said almost ready but not yet.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Union or Non-Union.. Service guys know best..


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Mikeomo said:


> Not true, on top of OJT I spend 6 hrs per week in class plus study time learning the "why's"... Doesn't this union vs. non, one being better than another (or not) *EVER* get old? It has more to do with the caliber of the person than whether they are union or not.


 The vast majority of non union shops do not have a structured apprentiship program.The ABC and IEC represent less than 10% of our non union shops.The educational opportunities are better in the union shops vs the merit shop thats just how it is.It is like saying which is better going to colledge or not going to colledge,most would say going to colledge would be better but you will always find a highschool drop out who became a millionare but they are the exception and not the rule.
when you look at the forest and not the individual trees you find that union shops do have the edge. Sorry if the truth hurts.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree with Brian. This debate is so old and tired. There is no doubt that the Union does some top notch work and this is comming from a non union guy.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I agree with Brian. This debate is so old and tired. There is no doubt that the Union does some top notch work and this is comming from a non union guy.


I have a slightly different twist, and I post this with some hesitation. I hate to make generalizations, but at some point the trends become clear.

Union shops tend to ONLY do visually very neat work with top notch material.

Non-union shops can often choose to do very neat or very sloppy work (or anything in between) with any grade of material to meet a certain price point or budget. 

The fact that a certain contractor may be often observed doing compliant, but hack-esque, work does not mean that he doesn't have the corporate capability of doing very nice work if the budget would have allowed. By that same token, that also means that there are probably many union men who'd do hack-like work if left to their own devices (matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can confirm that).


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Brian John's fundamental point was well taken. What he says, in a nutshell, is that it doesn't matter what the job looks like visually if you haven't tended to the details. Details, such as GFP and OCP settings, can become much more than a mere detail when **** hits the fan.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> INon-union shops can often choose to do very neat or very sloppy work (or anything in between) with any grade of material to meet a certain price point or budget.


I do perfect work with top grade material 100% of the time. 

But seriously, I like that summary. I also think you are right about union companies and the kind of work they do...generally speaking. Me, I'm they type that is happy to do very neat or very sloppy and everything in between. It makes things more interesting that way. :thumbsup:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

rewire said:


> when you look at the forest and not the individual trees you find that union shops do have the edge. Sorry if the truth hurts.


 its just a shame that us non union hacks have the biggest market share. sorry if the truth hurts.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The fact that a certain contractor may be often observed doing compliant, but hack-esque, work does not mean that he doesn't have the corporate capability of doing very nice work if the budget would have allowed. .


Case in point. I used to work for a large company that often did jobs with ultra neat, artistic pipe work. They also did jobs where it looked like a warehouse full of MC cable exploded. And they did everything in between. Whatever it took to get the job done on time and under budget was how it worked.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Based off what I've heard from electricians who _used_ to be Union, they were teaching me a hell of a lot more than I would've been taught my first year with a Union company.

My first day I was terminating receptacles.

My 2nd month I was helping pull wire and make taps on a commercial job.

My 3rd month I was assisting in troubleshooting, working on hot panels, and by the end of that month learning to bend pipe.

That company used to be Union, and they were sticklers about how things looked, and I used to be a perfectionist.

Now that I'm working with this company and they want me to _go go go,_ the aesthetic quality of my work has deteriorated. I feel like I've made a compromise between speed and quality. I'm still relatively "slow" to their standards but I've never had to go back to and fix something because of how it looked, unlike some of the journeyman's work (some of which I was sent to fix). 

It makes me appreciate what I was taught by my last company, that much more.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

You don't give the customer Picasso when they pay for street artist.

If it's in a wall, who cares what it looks like. If it's in a wall does it really look like anything?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> You don't give the customer Picasso when they pay for street artist.


You try to sell them on Picasso, but if they still want street artist, you give them street artist.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> You don't give the customer Picasso when they pay for street artist.


Hey now, streets artists can be really cool.

Sometimes...

But _definitely_ if you're in Key West.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

It is a tired argument,there's hacks and pro's on both sides.When I was open shop there would be one union shop that we used to go and fix there work all the time,now that I'm union there's been a few non union shops that we go behind and fix there screw up's.

This is the argument I have all the time with the older(mid 40's and up) union guy's in my local I keep telling them"the gap is closing a whole lot of the non union shop's are educated,the have access to all the information and know how that we do" I have to explain this over and over again.

In my mind being union and earning the wages that we do in my local, to stay competitive you have to have a strong work ethic.Show up on time,every day,work all day,be prepared,be productive and do it right the first time.
Yes we have the best education system set up,but who cares if your work ethic stinks.

I've worked with some real good guy's in my short time in the local,but man, I've seen some real slugs too.

I don't know where this attitude come's from,since I organized I have to go through the local's apprenticeship and they sure do preach and teach the right things.
I just hate laziness.If you clear $1200 a week,break a damn sweat!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I just hate laziness.If you clear $1200 a week,break a damn sweat!


Ed Hill's still trying to get guys to give "8 for 8". I think breaking a sweat during that 8 is a bit further down on his list. :laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

It's a shame,most guys are good hard working guy's but you only need a couple of slugs to make you look bad.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Marc's point is well taken, jobs are driven by available money and the assumption that slap it in is cheaper and faster than quality. Banks loan money and the longer a job takes to complete the more the job cost. So everyone in management drive the job to be completed as fast as possible.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> its just a shame that us non union hacks have the biggest market share. sorry if the truth hurts.


Just throw some smurf in right? Call it good?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I do perfect work with top grade material 100% of the time.


You just pretend to be a hack.

The typical observation around here is,

Non-union guys who start out in commercial / industrial shops, they turn out very high quality work, efficiently, with consistency.

Non-union guys who do nothing but production wiring and trim of subdivisions, well, you know, they have this gland that starts throbbing when it is time to work, its the high quantity, low quality production gland, and it does not combine well with things like exposed conduit, and makeup.

This is not to say that you cannot have a guy who can switch gears between the two, as needed, that would indeed be a very desireable guy to have, and many do have such ability.

Now on the union side, you have some folks who are just complete worthless, and happened to make it through the program, and they are entitled to their guaranteed three months of work a year. They shouldn't be electricians in the first place. Some of them may urp just at the thought of drinking a Rockstar, because they never ever indulge in caffeine.

I wish there was a way to make the union side a little more competitive, without losing any of the benefits we now have. Then it would be an absolute win-win, for everyone in the trade.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

I've realized that for every non-union guy who cuts corners, there is a union guy who makes 3 rights to make a left. 

Which is better?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> My 3rd month working on hot panels,


 I would not allow anyone with only three months experience to work live panels, I don't even like doing it myself and I have over 30 years.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> I would not allow anyone with only three months experience to work live panels, I don't even like doing it myself and I have over 30 years.


Well I'm glad somebody said it.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

rewire said:


> I would not allow anyone with only three months experience to work live panels, I don't even like doing it myself and I have over 30 years.





> My 3rd month *I was assisting* in troubleshooting, working on hot panels


You left out that part, and it was referring to the troubleshooting _and_ working on hot panels.

While I did indeed get my hands in there a few times most of it was spent understanding how panels were setup.

I didn't really get to land circuits on my own until about 6 months in.

The first thing anyone would ask is if I was comfortable working on them. Being me, of course I said "yes", because I was trying to gobble up as much information and experience as possible. But if it makes you feel any better, now I switch off the main breaker and continue working on a panel as if it's hot. Something I don't have to worry about now because I'm on a prevailing wage job.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> You left out that part, and it was referring to the troubleshooting _and_ working on hot panels.
> 
> While I did indeed get my hands in there a few times most of it was spent understanding how panels were setup.
> 
> ...


 Its hair splitting but still allowing someone with only three months to work live is bad practice,its not a matter of do you feel comfortable its a matter of a lack of experience.The problem I see is you now feel this practice is O.K. because"thats the way I was taught" mentality which somewhere down the line will lead to some poor sole who is wanting to gobble experience to get themself killed by electrocution.


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

I have to say, that letting an apprentice work on anything hot in their first year is reckless. NOBODY should work hot unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. It's just not worth it. Life is too short.

Non-Union shops do tend to let you learn at a 10x quicker pace. My 3rd and 4th year I worked for a recently joined union shop, and the hands I worked for were primarily from the non-union world. I got to finally do reakl electrical work during those 2 years. those 2 years spent on a service truck, I learned how to do everything. And I worked on my own most of the time. There was simply not enough "meat" in the contracts to allow me to stand and look over someone's shoulder. My first two years I did alot of shop cleanup, and painting, and gradutated into ditch digging and gluing PVC conduit together. My the time I got back into and older established shop for my 5th year, hell, I was ready to work alone, but was still tied to a journeyman. What did that 5th year do? Honestly, it "polished" my abilities. Instead of jsut "throw it in", I learned to do better pipe bending, and higher quality work. No more SE aluminum service feeders, no more "just get it in".....take a few more minutes, and make it look professional.

So, i have seen a bit of both sides, and all the while learning why things work the way they do via classes twice a week for 5 years.

Union jouyrneyman seem to be more interested in making you pay your dues, and non-union shops want you you to produce work. To this day, if I have an apprentice, I show them how to do something, and turn them loose. If that menas the next Journeyman may get laid off...well, then he needs to put the coffee cup down and bust a sweat!

Now, once you're turned out, and are now a JW, you're on your own to hold a job. The owner only cares if you are producing and making $$$.

Looking back, I think apprentices are way too sheltered for the first 2-3 years. Paying your dues, means you aren't doing any actual hands on training. But, the JW's on the job are the boss.....and you are the indentured servant. Just watching someone is stupid. To learn, YOU have to do the actual terminations, etc.

Can't blame a guy for bypassing all of that crap, getting a license in 4 yerars versus 5, and then joining the union, and taking advantage of Journeyman classes to get certification in NICET, etc.

Gotta be a glutton for punishment to endure the NJATC. How much a$$ kissing to get a good monthly work report signed by a JW can a man stand...and having it held over your head to ensure you stay a good little slave?

Just my .02

~Joe


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

traveler said:


> I have to say, that letting an apprentice work on anything hot in their first year is reckless. NOBODY should work hot unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. It's just not worth it. Life is too short.
> 
> Non-Union shops do tend to let you learn at a 10x quicker pace. My 3rd and 4th year I worked for a recently joined union shop, and the hands I worked for were primarily from the non-union world. I got to finally do reakl electrical work during those 2 years. those 2 years spent on a service truck, I learned how to do everything. And I worked on my own most of the time. There was simply not enough "meat" in the contracts to allow me to stand and look over someone's shoulder. My first two years I did alot of shop cleanup, and painting, and gradutated into ditch digging and gluing PVC conduit together. My the time I got back into and older established shop for my 5th year, hell, I was ready to work alone, but was still tied to a journeyman. What did that 5th year do? Honestly, it "polished" my abilities. Instead of jsut "throw it in", I learned to do better pipe bending, and higher quality work. No more SE aluminum service feeders, no more "just get it in".....take a few more minutes, and make it look professional.
> 
> ...


I like your way of thinking, You need to come see Texas and get a job.:thumbsup:


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't kid yourself. Union and open shop alike face the same economic pressures. There is a tremendous pressure to produce in any field. Resi guys are routinely piping houses at 800-1000 feet per day. Commercial pressures are there as well. 

That said, there are certain projects that inevitably involve the guys who want to slow everything down. They typically don't last long. Slow is slow. Hack is hack. Sluggo is sluggo. Open shop or union it does not define your character.


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

Resi guys are routinely piping houses at 800-1000 feet per day. 

I wish we were. And BTW piping a house in emt is an evil union method.


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## Raco (Sep 28, 2009)

knaack134 said:


> Resi guys are routinely piping houses at 800-1000 feet per day.
> 
> I wish we were. And BTW piping a house in emt is an evil union method.


Union does resi by you?

How do they do all the piping in houses, stub up to each receptacle?


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> There is an ongoing debate between union and open shop electricians with SOME union men claiming union installations are of a better quality. Few open shop men think or care about this issue, in my experience.
> 
> 1. I have worked both sides of the fence, tested and inspected both types of installations and CAN NOT tell the difference.
> Great, that means everyone is doing a great job (or we all suck). however you state: 2.
> ...


I'm not afraid to call a union or nonunion EC/electrician a hack. I've seen both. You tend to project yourself as a hooker with a heart of gold (the union guy who embraces the nonunion sector and tries to set straight the union guys who ignorantly blast nonunion people). If you (nonunion electricains) are so sensitive about union guys talking smack about you, it is a wonder to me how you could survive in such a dirty, cut throat and crude livelyhood as construction. 

Apprenticeship guys give me crap all the time (I came in on the books). I just laugh along with them earning my $43.00 an hour. If you remain nonunion just because union guys talk smack, your an Idoit. If you are happily and gainfully employed union or not, by your own choice God bless you. If you have tried or are trying to get into a Union but have had trouble, God bless you as well and good luck(sometimes it apears to not be fair.)
Brian, it apears to me that you are trying to stir the pot. 

Now tell me and everyone how I am whats wrong with the IBEW.


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

Raco said:


> Union does resi by you?
> 
> How do they do all the piping in houses, stub up to each receptacle?


We do alot of residential work here. It's about the only place in the country tha does(in EMT). Different types of home construction calls for various methods of piping (as I would think cabling does too). 

If you ever do get a chance to come here, it really is somthing to see someone install alot of pipe quickly and good looking.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Electricians with integrity and good work ethic*

The man has a valid point. I have been a union electrician for many years and I have seen poor workmanship from both sides of the union/non-union spectrum. It is what is inside the person doing the work that makes him want to do a good job; It is his pride in his work, due to pride in himself. I have found myself many times purposely driving past a previous job to see if it still looks good and works well. I am not being sappy_...It is part of my legacy. _
_It is important to say that apprentices are given the luck of the draw as to who they learn from. Bad habits are easy to learn if you are just learning. We journeymen have to find a way to police ourselves. I was very lucky early on with the majority of my journeymen caring about their job and my future. And I will say,"Thank you local# 369 in Louisville,_
_Kentucky._

_Signed'_

_the Riveter_


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

Your absolutely right on having pride,I started out non-union had many of great mentors, they all pushed pefectionism but at a steady pace, on job sites I didnt even associate with other guys who did work i saw was crappy,,I only enjoyed the company of those who shared the same passion as i do,during the first five years or so i would eat, sleep and drink nothing but electrical knowledge,well,i still do to this day ,but with more confidence,then i joined the union,and what i saw was alot of people who were like me, who shares the same passion,,and folks it doesnt stop at the squared panels and beautiful conduit , its everything in that conduit,in those panels,,doing something correctly does not necessary mean you were slow in doing it, with practice,dedication, sweat, you can achieve the ability to do the best work in the same amount of time it would have taken to cut corners, so yeah, union preaches to be better than the competition, but it all depends on the person doing the work,I ve traveled all over this great country, and lots of folks have commented on my work and asked about my apprenticeship, and were shocked to hear i was organized in,so my hats off to all electricians who take pride in their work, keep up the good craftmanship.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

The culture at the company, union or not, has more to do with the quality of work than membership in any organization.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

_I will agree with you that the "culture" of the company has a lot to do with the way a lot of people work.But, I always tried to remember the phrase "IN A WORKMAN-LIKE MANNER", and that includes the safety aspects of the job. If you are uncomfortable with the way a "JOB" is going, you must dig down deep for the guts to be the one to stand up, or, if possible, talk to the offending person; Who knows, maybe they are the product of a journeyman in their past and really want to do a good job, but don't know how.



_


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The culture at the company, union or not, has more to do with the quality of work than membership in any organization.


I think so, a fish stinks from the hread down, as they say.


Who ever to hell "THEY" is?



RIVETER said:


> _I will agree with you that the "culture" of the company has a lot to do with the way a lot of people work.But, I always tried to remember the phrase "IN A WORKMAN-LIKE MANNER", and that includes the safety aspects of the job. If you are uncomfortable with the way a "JOB" is going, you must dig down deep for the guts to be the one to stand up, or, if possible, talk to the offending person; Who knows, maybe they are the product of a journeyman in their past and really want to do a good job, but don't know how._


 
Sloppy work is not necessarily unsafe or dangerous if it was there would be a lot more fires and dead users of this product.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

brian john said:


> I think so, a fish stinks from the head down, as they say.
> Who ever to hell "THEY" is?


LOL.....agreed. 




brian john said:


> Sloppy work is not necessarily unsafe or dangerous if it was there would be a lot more fires and dead users of this product.


Agreed....and I am sure if it were a real problem, the NEC would clarify and create stronger and stricter definitions of 'workman like manner'. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as is also said....


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

I don"t think the issue of union or non union is ever going to be solved As a 20 yr union guy I have seen the pros and cons of both sides and at the end of the day it is just a job and if you did what you know is legel and ethical then you did your due diligence. If anyone is just doing the minimum then they are going to get theirs in the end. just remember that cutting corners and breaking laws in this industry kills and destroys. so do a good job quickly.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky105 said:


> I don"t think the issue of union or non union is ever going to be solved As a 20 yr union guy I have seen the pros and cons of both sides and at the end of the day it is just a job and if you did what you know is legal and ethical then you did your due diligence. If anyone is just doing the minimum then they are going to get theirs in the end. just remember that cutting corners and breaking laws in this industry kills and destroys. so do a good job quickly.


 
And cheapens our industry allowing more hacks to do the work "as anyone can do it attitudes takes hold" and soon wages will go to hell.


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## SALISBURY (Feb 15, 2009)

Union or non-union everybody needs to make money to live. It would be nice to see everybody and i mean all electrians all get on the same page and stick together as one so we as the workers can make a good pay check and not watch all the owners get rich on your sweat. If the owners of union shops pay their workers good money/Benfits and their making money. How much money do you think these owners of the non union shops are making ON YOUR SWEAT:thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

SALISBURY said:


> It would be nice to see everybody and i mean all electrians all get on the same page and stick together as one so we as the workers can make a good pay check and not watch all the owners get rich on your sweat. If the owners of union shops pay their workers good money/Benfits and their making money. How much money do you think these owners of the non union shops are making ON YOUR SWEAT:thumbup:


I hardly even know why I'm bothering to respond to this, but I'd say the owners of most successful companies have put a lot of their own sweat into building their businesses. Payroll, risk, insurance, chasing money, chasing work, planning, estimating, logistics, vehicles...just to name a few. The list of owners responsibility is much, much longer than that. 

If you don't like making someone else money, go and work for yourself and see what it's like. You'll probably change your tune really fast.


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## SALISBURY (Feb 15, 2009)

What i'm saying is if we all stayed together and a group we wouldn't have this nonuoin /unoin ****. we would be one big group and we could set are own wage .


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

SALISBURY said:


> What i'm saying is if we all stayed together and a group we wouldn't have this nonuoin /unoin ****. we would be one big group and we could set are own wage .


:blink:


In the union sector, the wage is set by collective bargaining.

In the non-union sector, the wage is set by agreement between the contractor and each worker individually. 

As for non-union and union coming to a meeting of the minds, I don't really think that's a possibility. :laughing:


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I hardly even know why I'm bothering to respond to this, *but I'd say the owners of most successful companies have put a lot of their own sweat into building their businesses. Payroll, risk, insurance, chasing money, chasing work, planning, estimating, logistics, vehicles...just to name a few. The list of owners responsibility is much, much longer than that. *
> 
> If you don't like making someone else money, go and work for yourself and see what it's like. You'll probably change your tune really fast.


Yep....but the customer isn't paying for that. They're paying for installed electrical equipment. Without us, how's it gonna get done?

Perhaps the owner can do it ALL himself? If they could, they would!!

I keep forgetting you're worried about the boss making money....the rest of us are trying to take care of ourselves 1st. If we take care of ourselves, the job will get done and the owner will make money. 

He may carry the responsibility, but he ain't doing the work in the hot sun. Again, the customer isn't paying for the owners responsibility, he is paying for an installed product. "It takes two to tango".

Even after paying for us, they are still making alot of money. Union guys just insist on a bigger slice of the pie than a slivver.

If the union was gone....there would be no prevailing wage to compete against. No competition.......and you would be working for 5 bucks and hour.

~Joe


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

traveler said:


> Even after paying for us, they are still making alot of money. Union guys just insist on a bigger slice of the pie than a slivver.


i can assure you that as a worker, you've never gone negative on a project...you've never had guys dog a job...you've never walked away from a project with less money than when you started the project...

suffice to say, few small EC's ever get rich...even fewer small EC's get rich off their employees...there is a big difference between the small guy with 2-10 employees and the larger guys with 100+ employees...


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

ask frasbee if he knows what a arc flash or blast is? He's gonna know if he's in such a rush to work on live gear.. Three months is too soon even for a smart apprentice. you should be working on ohms law not live gear...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SALISBURY said:


> What i'm saying is if we all stayed together and a group we wouldn't have this nonuoin /unoin ****. we would be one big group and we could set are own wage .


So in your mind the workers should set the wage and decide what the owners should make?

Are you serious?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

not what owners could make but decide what we (the workers) can make


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> not what owners could make but decide what we (the workers) can make


If the workers decide what the workers make, they *ARE* also deciding what the owner makes. Don't you understand that?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

every union has a contract with owners. the owners adjust the bids accordingly. if all electricians stick together and demand a good wage they will just pass it on to the consumer. so that is what i meant. do you understand that hackerwork


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> every union has a contract with owners. the owners adjust the bids accordingly. if all electricians stick together and demand a good wage they will just pass it on to the consumer. so that is what i meant. do you understand that hackerwork


The contractor can't just go and raise the bids, or else they won't get the work.


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

oh yea! who's going to do the shutdown to install the new switchgear the painter the landscaper no maybe the plumber... electrical work in regulated and a license is needed with insurance and tools and qualified personnel.thats a osha federal law.. so on the jersey shore theirs 25 contractors all know that the going rate for a journeyman is 35 so they all bid accordingly. the contractor that lowballs is stealing from peter to pay paul.


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

I hardly even know why I'm bothering to respond to this, but I'd say the owners of most successful companies have put a lot of their own sweat into building their businesses. Payroll, risk, insurance, chasing money, chasing work, planning, estimating, logistics, vehicles...just to name a few. The list of owners responsibility is much, much longer than that. 





I think alot of guys are forgetting some things here,,let me show how pride changes things ,not only in your work, but yourself,,when I think back to the beginning I remember the hell I went through to get where I'm at today,,I did twice if not more physical work then my journeyman,fetching,climbing,carrying his and mine,not to mention the information I was taking in,I always carried a note pad in my front shirt pocket,,so there was definitely alot of SWEATING,and alot of KNOWLEDGE being taken in, It took several years of that before I was allowed to earn the title JOURNEYMAN ELECTRICIAN, folks i'm not raising my voice w/cap just elaborating, so I had obtained something that was of great value, to myself,and the rest of the world,,,,And during the entire time I was trying to live the american dream,got married and had a very wonderful daughter to take care of ,my family depended upon me to survive and I knew I must make the best,wisest decisions to not only survive but I wanted nice things,not from a materialistic point of view but from a safety point,I knew my wife needed a nice car that would be safe to take our daughter to/from school,and all the other important task she managed,a good home with a heater that would not brake down in the middle of winter,,and most importantly good INSURANCE,you talk about the owner taking RISK,,I'll tell you who the one taking risk is ,and its not him,,,I'm hoping like hell that the wireman at the other end of the wire doesnt energize the circuit,because the owner says lockout/tag out is unnecessary that its just a simple task we dont need it,and he forgot them anyway,or whatever just put in your own experience in that line because i know everyone of you have been there atleast once,,,,So when i'm on a job, you are getting a professional job done in a proffesional manner,,you mentioned chasing work,,well I chase it on a continous basis, and i know that the owner is not selling himself short either,he is doing the same thing we should be doing, striving for top dollar and giving nothing less than a proffesional product,,you also mentioned vehicles, I know I drove junk for years untill I built myself up a little,just like the contractor, Its the same ratio per senario the little man makes little and owns a little, the better he gets the more he aquires, although he needs five more new trucks so he can spread his guys up, well soon my shop (family) will also need a new truck,,AS ABOVE SO BELOW,folks its the macro and micro, same on both sides, The one fellow says why dont we get together as a group,,he says why dont we decide on our own wages, folks we are not smaller than the contractors, we are the same, kinda like the old women saying,,CAN'T LIVE WITH THEM & CANT LIVE WITHOUT THEM, we are of equal power,,,ONLY IN NUMBERS,,they treat alot of you like bitches,scaring you with cowardly ways to keep your mind unplacid, afraid of being fired,such a lonely feeling,ultimately they do have you by the nuts,because seriously where would you go,,,back to the fellow wishing we could all be as one and have a say in important matters,like the ones that matter to you,,its called I . B . E . W . When Henry Miller saw his buddies getting killed by unsafe practice pushed by the company in the height of demand where casualty presided less over an unshaven newly woven money pit, Happening all over this great country, He invisioned a brotherhood, a congregation of like minded men who in numbers could achieve a safe work place,continued education, and a salary worth taking home to ma,, folks this short novel is not for those of you set in your way, happy with where you are, nope,,its for the guys and gals who want a better standard of living for their family, Thanks Electriciantalk.com for allowing me to post the way I see it, so mote it be.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> oh yea! who's going to do the shutdown to install the new switchgear the painter the landscaper no maybe the plumber... electrical work in regulated and a license is needed with insurance and tools and qualified personnel.thats a osha federal law.. so on the jersey shore theirs 25 contractors all know that the going rate for a journeyman is 35 so they all bid accordingly. the contractor that lowballs is stealing from peter to pay paul.


So what's the purpose of everyone making so much money if every product and service we pay for goes up in price and we are right back at square one?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

alot of owners are great working right along side me. I'm just saying we all band together we can raise the wages of journeyman union or not


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

luminous said:


> Thanks Electriciantalk.com for allowing me to post the way I see it, so mote it be.


Thanks for your rant. Next time breaking it up into smaller paragraphs would make it a lot easier to read. I only skimmed it because I was getting eye strain.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> alot of owners are great working right along side me. I'm just saying we all band together we can raise the wages of journeyman union or not


Why would you want to raise the rate of journeyman?

Why would you want to price yourself out of the market?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

bank of america is building a new branch they budget for electrical.. if they know that s.o.b. electric is going to do it for 5000 below market.. where do you think the the guy going to make his money .. he's going to slash his manpowers wages among other things but if all journeyman stick together.. might not happen as much


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> bank of america is building a new branch they budget for electrical.. if they know that s.o.b. electric is going to do it for 5000 below market.. where do you think the the guy going to make his money .. he's going to slash his manpowers wages among other things but if all journeyman stick together.. might not happen as much


Who are you to tell the owner of a company in a free country how much he should make?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

thats the point, raising the market... why would i want to raise the journeymans scale? thats a tough one


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

me and about 750,000 ibew workers


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

a raise


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dukester said:


> bank of america is building a new branch they budget for electrical.. if they know that s.o.b. electric is going to do it for 5000 below market.. where do you think the the guy going to make his money .. he's going to slash his manpowers wages among other things but if all journeyman stick together.. might not happen as much



Ah right. Workers deciding how much owners should spend on their property. That's an effective tactic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> thats the point, raising the market... why would i want to raise the journeymans scale? thats a tough one


You really aren't making any sense...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> me and about 750,000 ibew workers


 you and 750,000 IBEW workers what?


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with them at all,what i'm saying is they are of equall value, only when we are in numbers, this band you talk about is already into play, but i'm sorry to tell you this,what you are wanting can not happen without a structured organization,


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

luminous said:


> I'm not saying there is anything wrong with them at all,what i'm saying is they are of equall value, only when we are in numbers, this band you talk about is already into play, but i'm sorry to tell you this,what you are wanting can not happen without a structured organization,


Who are you replying to and on what subject?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

making more for the hard work your doing and all the years of schooling and training.. cant you understand that if not i'm done with you,


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

If all contractors were union, they would be forced to make the best decisions based solely on their knowledge of business, the labor part would be out of the equation,the honest and fair would remain in business earning a living just like the rest of us do,using our heads to acheive whatever standard of living is within your means.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> making more for the hard work your doing and all the years of schooling and training.. cant you understand that if not i'm done with you,


What are you talking about? You start a sentence saying "making more for the hard work".

What about making more? What context are you speaking? Is it that hard to ask for full sentences? You pride yourself on being so great and worth so much money, but let's go back and work on English and conveying a simple point to someone.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

luminous said:


> If all contractors were union, they would be forced to make the best decisions based solely on their knowledge of business, the labor part would be out of the equation,the honest and fair would remain in business earning a living just like the rest of us do,using our heads to acheive whatever standard of living is within your means.


If all contractors were union, we wouldn't be able to afford half of what we buy on a daily basis.


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

Sorry Hackwork,, I have yet to figure the quote feature out yet,,just joined a couple days ago,,and the smileys,how in the world do you get those guys up here?


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

You asked why would you want a raise? I wrote," making more money for the hard work,ect". Understand now


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> me and about 750,000 ibew workers


I'm trying to piece together what you are saying.

Are you trying to tell me that 750,000 IBEW members want more money? LOL!!!:laughing: You're a real jokester!


As a member, I am HAPPY with my rate. The benefits could be better, but that's not the union or the contractors fault. The pension and annuity are top notch. 

I don't want more money, I want more work! My rate of $46 per hour times 0 hours equals ZERO! 

So You want to raise the rate? And what will that do? Cause more customers to decide not to build due to high costs and put us out of work even more?


I still can't believe that you are trying to say that all the IBEW members want more money. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

so you work for cheap in order to buy cheap stuff, makes sense


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

luminous said:


> Sorry Hackwork,, I have yet to figure the quote feature out yet,,just joined a couple days ago,,and the smileys,how in the world do you get those guys up here?


Press the QUOTE button to the right of a person's post to quote them.

To the right of the text entry box you will see smilies, just click on them to add it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> so you work for cheap in order to buy cheap stuff, makes sense


Are you trying to tell me that a package of over $70/hour is cheap? In total, almost $600 per day for me alone is CHEAP?

WTF are you smoking?

I'm sorry that I am getting mad, but people like you are ruining the IBEW and are the reason why I would really love to leave it. 

I'm sure you'd LOVE to make $200 per hour and give the owner of the company a $75,000 per year salary. 

My stress level is going up, I'm done with this thread.


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm not making as much as you and i'm sure that 95% of my brothers don't make that.. your making 600 thats more than a lawyer makes! Jersey is one of the top scales


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm happy with our scale,it fits the market for the location,,I was also happy for local 479 in texas those guys did without for a long time, but as the market increased they negotiated and got a fair agreement, it went to 25.00/hr anything over eight over time,,if all you ever did was work saturdays time and1/2, if all you did was work sundays double time,,for the south thats good money,(FAIR) with all the turnarounds at the refinerys, alot of ot,,I spent four months down there and made 45000.00 went back home and was not pressured to take the first call on something that didnt suit me,


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dukester said:


> I'm not making as much as you and i'm sure that 95% of my brothers don't make that.. That a decent wage


That's only where it is because there is a high cost of living here. 

Your rate is where it should be for where you live, as it is for 98% of the IBEW locals. 

For you to say that 750,000 members want a higher rate to throw 2X4 lights in a ceiling and wire a piece of MC to it is outrageous. Most IBEW members know that they get a fair package. The ones who don't, such as yourself, are really ruining it.


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## luminous (Sep 27, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Press the QUOTE button to the right of a person's post to quote them.
> 
> To the right of the text entry box you will see smilies, just click on them to add it.


 

Thanks Hackwork:thumbsup:


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

ruining what? I't my fault your out of work. just sit tight jersey always has alot of work.. alot of locals outside your ny/nj bubble are a couple dollars below were they should be.. I hear it all the time


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

what local in jersey? some of my best friends are out of wall.


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## dukester (Jun 22, 2009)

east coast has good wages, west coast has good wages, mid western states are decent, the southern states not so much... thats pretty much where i was coming from...south florida is not cheap, cost of living is high and wages don"t match..getting better though, we got a dollar raise each year for the last three years..


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## traveler (Sep 15, 2009)

Can you hold a job?

if so, then I guess the work you are putting in is "cuttin' it"

~Joe


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Pride will be your downfall… 

I used to sell my company and my services based on our work were superior because I used union labor, and it was the best. Guess what, that does not sell my work anymore and it does not buy me anything the few times I get invited to the table to cut a deal. Often when I do land a contract there is extensive language in it forcing me as the contractor to indemnify the GC and owners against strikes and union sabotage. The GCs are getting organized too. 

I have seen the work the non-union shops do around here, and I see the bid tabs and they are whipping my ass on bid day, and the work they do is as good or better than the work my guys were doing, and that humbled me quite a bit. Sure nobody can compete with some pickup truck electrician doing small work, but when the big non-union shops OWN 90% of my market and take multimillion dollar Bacon-Davis jobs away from me on a regular basis, its time to quit kidding ourselves, union labor does not own the market in quality, training, or performance but it does own it in pride, arrogance and ego. 

IBEW is shrinking, it is loosing market share there is a reason and you can blame the rats and scabs all you want but it has become apparent to this union contractor that the non-union shops as a whole are a hell of a lot more organized than we are, and they can do what we can do just as good and a lot more efficiently. 

Keep drinking that cool-aid Ed Hill keeps giving you, but know this the open shops don’t run a country club and they are changing the way we all play this game and don’t mind one bit if we think they are dumb, unorganized and unskilled, in fact they would prefer you keep thinking that and acting they way you do high on your own pride, as they slowly take away your market share. 

Don’t shoot the messenger but it has to be said the IBEW culture is a bigger threat to the union than open shops.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

It is what it is,

That $25 a month I pay to the International Organization does exactly WHAT for me?? Nothing, it is nothing but a big racket. You get that IBEW magazine, check out the photos of the kingpins, everyone of those guys has a chin hanging down below his knees. I've heard stories about when the upper-ups go back east, they took a guy with them who has a big mouth, and he was so excited to tell us about the steak and lobster every night, and the posh hotel, I did not hear about the hot young hookers, but I wouldn't be surprised. In high school we read the book 'Animal Farm,' at the end the pigs move in to the master's house and start wearing clothes and talking like humans. Well the pigs moved up into the master's house, been that way for a long time, and when the non-union contractor points that obscenity out to his men, they can only agree it is disgusting, and I agree too. I wish I could put those fat-asses bare foot on a red hot treadmill to pay for their sins of fraud and gluttony. The motorhomes, the boats, the vacations, it makes me angry and jealous to see these frauds treat us like a gawddammed ATM machine. Is my thinking flawed?

If we could get some real leadership, from people we respect, who are respectable on all fronts, we would not have a crisis in membership in places like Texas. The way the union runs like a maid to beck and call of the gimme-gimme welfare democrats is an affront to over half the working men in america. I imagine this is what has Texans so pissed off, I am feeling it too.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Miller elex*

I feel your pain. People sometimes mean well when they start working for you but the greed can set in and TAKE THEM. That is why we get more volunteers than we need to operate the beer booth at the picnic.


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