# The dead end three way conundrum



## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Sounds to me that with the 11 code, it will be a moot point for you guys.
Myself, I will wire a three way one of four different ways depending on the lighting and switching layouts.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

you would be suprised at the guys that cant figure out a dead end 3 way..
traditionally a 3 way is fed at one end, loaded (switch legged) at the other. all a dead end does is carry power to the other end of 3way. your travellers will remain the same but your 3rd wire tie in hot and will carry power to the other end, thus switching at one end and loading at other (via 3rd wire).


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

It'll still be a dead end it will just have an extra wire in the box. It helps you out on box fill sometimes and sometimes it just makes sense to take the switch leg out of the same box as the power. Every once in a blue moon I end up with two dead ends on the same three way set.


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> Sounds to me that with the 11 code, it will be a moot point for you guys.
> Myself, I will wire a three way one of three different ways depending on the lighting and switching layouts.


Im a scrub here, still in school and all. But in what situations is it really advisable to go dead end? The standard method seems more than adequate for most if not all installations. Im sure when I get a job, I will get a rude awakening but wanted to hear your guys thoughts on it. Is it common to go dead end? It is just something I have yet to master and feel apprehensive about it.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

really it saves wire and keeps neutrals from getting mixed, with 08 arc fault codes


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fiki said:


> When a new house is being built, what are the chances a dead end will be present?


I haven't wired a house since the 70s, but often we have dead end 3-ways in a 2-story house where the light and circuit are upstairs and we need a 3-way downstairs. It was the most cost effective way to do it. With the 2011 code though, better start buying some 4-wire cable.


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I haven't wired a house since the 70s, but often we have dead end 3-ways in a 2-story house where the light and circuit are upstairs and we need a 3-way downstairs. It was the most cost effective way to do it. With the 2011 code though, better start buying some 4-wire cable.


Ya when I was in mod 4 we only used 4-wire, guess they were preparing us. Naturally we had to work with 2/12 and 2 /14 for more simple circuits but it just seems so odd to me. I hope to get it down one day. Maybe my Jman will teach me when I get in the field. Or the school will allow me to take mod 4 again if I wish. I just might do that.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

no it is something you should learn and feel comfortable doing..first time i did it i had no idea if it would work either. at some point you will encounter it and should feel like you can handle it, also it is a valuable tool for cut wires,trobleshooting etc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So what is a 'traditional' 3-way set-up?

I wire 3-ways depending on the layout of the switches, light(s), and possibly things like stairways, detached garage, etc. I don't use one method only, unless 'the cheapest way to git-er-done' is a method.


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> no it is something you should learn and feel comfortable doing..first time i did it i had no idea if it would work either. at some point you will encounter it and should feel like you can handle it, also it is a valuable tool for cut wires,trobleshooting etc


Ya, the very first time I attempted it, I had a GFCI receptacle in the circuit and it instantly tripped when we put power in the circuit. Thought I had it right but guess not. I did it only once sucsesfuly but that was the only time and I needed help. Out of everything I learned in school for resi work, I know how to do it. But the dead end is something I am having trouble wrapping my mind around.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Often times in these huge mcmansions you'll have several sets of three-ways at multiple locations. Dead ends come in handy to isolate different circuits in the same box. Only equipment grounding conductors (EGC'S) get tied together from different circuits in these type boxes. Sometimes we even feed circuits at the light and run (2) dead ends (1 to each switch location).


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

for the record.. i promise when you get a few years under your belt you will look back and say "i cant believe i was intimidated by this,once". kinda like a shunt trip system, the confusion comes from its simplicity


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So what is a 'traditional' 3-way set-up?
> 
> I wire 3-ways depending on the layout of the switches, light(s), and possibly things like stairways, detached garage, etc. I don't use one method only, unless 'the cheapest way to git-er-done' is a method.


My defenition for a traditional three way set up is like this.

2 wire coming to the 3 way. Hot goes to common, splice the N with 3 wire N and use the other 2 wires as travelers to the next 3 way. Then from there I use the common terminal as a switchleg going to the light. Splice the N wire and your done. Clean, simple, easy.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fiki said:


> but it just seems so odd to me.


Are you able to draw a schematic of how a set of 3-ways controls the load?

If you follow the flow of electricity and forget (for now) any memorization of how to wire the switches you will understand the circuit and will be able to wire it in any required configuration.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sorry, my traditional way. i agree, each has its own circumstances and should be dealt with accordingly. BTW i know of 13 ways to make up a 3way system and cant find 14.. little help here


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Are you able to draw a schematic of how a set of 3-ways controls the load?
> 
> If you follow the flow of electricity and forget (for now) any memorization of how to wire the switches you will understand the circuit and will be able to wire it in any required configuration.


I have a good understanding of how they work in the basic form. The dead end just have some curveballs. When we were taught this we had to reidentify some N wires as hot with electrical tape. That part through me off. A working diagram would help me tremendously, I tried to find some online but to no avail.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Fiki said:


> My defenition for a traditional three way set up is like this.
> 
> 2 wire coming to the 3 way. Hot goes to common, splice the N with 3 wire N and use the other 2 wires as travelers to the next 3 way. Then from there I use the common terminal as a switchleg going to the light. Splice the N wire and your done. Clean, simple, easy.



The only advantage to that setup is it's virtually foolproof... meaning even someone who does not understand a single thing about 3-ways can wire it and make it work. Both switches and the wires in both boxes are wired exactly the same way...... the black from the 2-wire goes to the common... tie the whites together.... the black & red from the 3-wire go on the remaining two terminals.


I'll wire 3-ways just about any way 'till the cows come home, except for feeding the light first. Although legal to do so, I hate doing it for future troubleshooting purposes.


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The only advantage to that setup is it's virtually foolproof... meaning even someone who does not understand a single thing about 3-ways can wire it and make it work. Both switches and the wires in both boxes are wired exactly the same way...... the black from the 2-wire goes to the common... tie the whites together.... the black & red from the 3-wire go on the remaining two terminals.
> 
> 
> I'll wire 3-ways just about any way 'till the cows come home, except for feeding the light first. Although legal to do so, I hate doing it for future troubleshooting purposes.


Alas that is how we were taught at first, dead end second. But speaking from the perspective an electrician with no experience it seems full proof. Maybe this is something I will get better at over time but I really would love to know other methods.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Standard dead end: 
1) feed and load one end/3 wire between switches
2) red white(mark) use as travellers (both ends), use switch leg as common 3)tie black (3 wire) on power to power opposite switch(thus carrying power to other end), bundle neutrals as such except 3 wire between switches (as white is now a traveller on 3 wire)
the thing to keep in mind is your neutrals are not being carried between switches.. they are wherever your feed and load are at.. you are only carrying 120v to opposite switch


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fiki said:


> Alas that is how we were taught at first, dead end second. But speaking from the perspective an electrician with no experience it seems full proof. Maybe this is something I will get better at over time but I really would love to know other methods.


Here's the trick, understand the circuit, not the method of which color wire goes where. Once you understand the circuit, the rest comes easy.

Someone will probably post a simple drawing of how it works, if not, sometime tomorrow I'll get around to it.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

yes, somebody will get the [email protected]# kicked out of them... i totally agree. i have seen some trailers wired this way though


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

easy to do.. hard as hell to explain!!!


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

guys, wifeys callin bedtime, gotta go.nite all


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> . Once you understand the circuit, the rest comes easy.


Once I understood how the switch operated, the circuit was simple.


Standard 3way (in these parts) has power at one end, switch leg at the other with the 3 wire running between.

The switch simply connects the common to one of the traveler terminals and breaks with the other one.

We do a lot of resi remodel and the dead end 3way makes sense sometimes. It's easier to fish one cable than two.....sometimes box space is limited at one end.....stuff like that.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

All 3-ways electrically work like this. The hot goes to the common of the 1st 3 way and the light goes to the common of the 2nd 3 way. The neutral goes directly to the light.

How you get the hots and switch legs to the switches are the different methods of wiring, but they all work like this sketch.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Well that turned out like crap.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Fiki said:


> My defenition for a traditional three way set up is like this.
> 
> 2 wire coming to the 3 way. Hot goes to common, splice the N with 3 wire N and use the other 2 wires as travelers to the next 3 way. Then from there I use the common terminal as a switchleg going to the light. Splice the N wire and your done. Clean, simple, easy.


It's probably best to describe a three-way as "line" and "load". 

Your first switch location is the line side, and the second switch location is the load. 

You've simply spliced through the grounded neutral conductor so your lamp (load side) will work. This is a fine way of wiring three-way switches because the neutral conductor is never used as an ungrounded conductor so you'll have no code issues at rough inspection.


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

Here's a 'simple' diagram. Forget about colors for now, just visualize how the hot wire will end up coming out of the system
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-way.jpg


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

before I go any further, can you see the photo in that link? It's a new photo bucket account and I'm not sure if it's open to public or not.

Daveco


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Daveco, I can see it.


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

Even though the color of wire doesn't make a difference in how it "works", we do have to come up with something that makes sense to others so we add some colors to the wire on this one. (I usually carry a blue Permanent Marker and color the white Blue when using it as part of a switch leg. It's easy to keep things in order as opposed to taping it black)

At this time, don't worry about what is a 2 wire and what is a 3 wire. Just look at it and just see how it will work.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-waywithcolor.jpg


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

You've probably already figured it out, but here it is with the type of NM cable used between each (on this situation) There's still other ways with the power starting at the light, but hopefully the simple way of looking at what the switches are doing will help you understand how to make that work.

Just remember, "It's ok to use the white for something other than the neutral as long as you color it" At least your generation gets to see colors marked on the white... us old folks needed to figure it out the hard way ;-)

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-waywithcolorplus.jpg

Daveco


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

Why use a Dead End? First of all, I've been in the trade for over 30 years... and I don't think I've ever heard it called a "Dead End" I had to read all the post to figure out what you guys were talking about 

I use it when there's a good chance a wall may move or it's not in yet and you want to get things as far along as possible. I use it when the power and light are close to one of the switches. As many have said, don't get stuck on only doing it one way. Open your mind to all the possibilities and install them in different ways, so when you're asked to trouble shoot one after a home owner has changes out the switch, you'll understand what the "other guy" did.

Nothing impresses a Home Owner more, than when you come in and solve the problem in three minutes that took him 2 days to create and try and figure it out ;-)

It's not rocket science, and when you realize that, you'll wonder why you struggled with it for so long.

Daveco


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

daveco said:


> Here's a 'simple' diagram. Forget about colors for now, just visualize how the hot wire will end up coming out of the system
> http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-way.jpg




Could you imagine being on the job somewhere when this was discovered. Must have been amazing!


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## daveco (Jun 12, 2010)

Hopefully you've started with the simple diagram and working your way up to this one, but this one is used a lot because if you're already wirenutting another hot wire to the feed or Line, you might as well include the black going to the "Dead End" switch, then take the wire going to the light or "load" to the "out" screw. One less wirenut to cram in the box.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-waywithcolorplusdifferentway.jpg

Hope this helped you evolve into what you are attempting now, so you'll understand it better.

Daveco


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## Fate (Feb 21, 2011)

So a dead end 3 way is just a feed at the fixture? It may look intimidating (I'm also in school) but sit down for a minute and draw it out. You can try some wiring too.

Feed comes in (14-2), neutral goes right onto the light. That's done. Now run another 14-2 from the feed area to the 1st switch. Black feed ties to white in 14-2 and gets re-identified at the splice. You'll have a free black wire which we'll deal with later.

Run 14-3 between boxes. Black 14-3 ties into re-identified white at 1st switch. That runs to second switch common. Red/White are used as travelers. That free black from the previous 14-2 now goes to 1st switch common and the light fixture. 
Once you learn it you'll wonder how it ever gave you bit of trouble.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

Fate said:


> So a dead end 3 way is just a feed at the fixture? It may look intimidating (I'm also in school) but sit down for a minute and draw it out. You can try some wiring.


You are completely correct. I have always had an issue understanding 3ways. I would usually only have to deal with swap outs where they are already wired, or have had someone else on the job do them. But after looking at the diagram that was posted, I think I'm finally getting an understanding of how they work... I may go play with some wires later...

Sent from my tracfone prepaid phone.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

daveco said:


> Hopefully you've started with the simple diagram and working your way up to this one, but this one is used a lot because if you're already wirenutting another hot wire to the feed or Line, you might as well include the black going to the "Dead End" switch, then take the wire going to the light or "load" to the "out" screw. One less wirenut to cram in the box.
> 
> http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x468/davidhake/3-waywithcolorplusdifferentway.jpg
> 
> ...


Great pic, the only thing I do differently is to use the colored white as the hot wire in the 3-wire cable, and use the red/black as travelers.


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## Wiredude (May 14, 2010)

Admittedly, I'm not a "real" electrician, but I've been in the industry for about 12 years now, and I've paid attention where I could, and learned a few things. 
The thing that really helped me understand 3-ways was understanding that it's really just a 'double-throw' switch.
I've always had this sadistic desire to wire a 3-way switch to 2 different lights, so that one comes on in either position, just to mess with someone's head. Never had the right chance to do it though.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Familiarity with this kind of stuff comes in handy on remodels. Last week I was working on a house built in the 1800s. Re-pulling EVERYTHING. Had stairs with a 3W downstairs, 4W upstairs, and 3W down the upstairs hall. There was no way to fish it all; I had to feed and kick it at the 4W. Box was crammed, but it was the only option without cutting a bunch of holes in walls layered with wood and sheetrock. I say its definitely worth having in the bag o tricks.

A former fellow employee made a study aid by wiring up the switches to a dead end (no boxes), labeling wires, and screwing it to a small board to keep around the shop. Very helpful to see it and understand the path of current.


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

I keep finding them with the white wire used to run hot to the dead end side and the wire has not been re-identified at all. (even tied together in the 4 way box) One has to learn to trouble shoot these circuits. For one thing, I am often replacing the existing 3 ways (and 4 ways in between) with multi location dimmers. When doing that, you have to positively identify each wire and know exactly what the previous guy did. You do not want to fry a bunch of expensive dimmers. For those learning, there is a wiring diagram on individually boxed 3 & 4 switches.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

egads said:


> I keep finding them with the white wire used to run hot to the dead end side and the wire has not been re-identified at all.............


The reason being, re-identification was not required until the 1999 NEC.


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## Fiki (Sep 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The reason being, re-identification was not required until the 1999 NEC.


That little bit will be useful to me in the field, strange they just recently changed that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Fiki said:


> That little bit will be useful to me in the field, strange they just recently changed that.



Here's a stranger one..... Up until the 2002, gray was technically an ungrounded ('hot') conductor color.


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

So, what if I need to feed power into the 4 way switch? :whistling2:

If you understand 3 ways and draw it out, it is amazingly easy.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Here's a stranger one..... Up until the 2002, gray was technically an ungrounded ('hot') conductor color.


I'm gonna need some schooling 480. I remember gray being a neutral back in ... well a long time ago. I dug up my oldest code book available and I found in 1990 310-12(c) saying


> Ungrounded Conductors.
> ...... Distinquishing markings shall also be in a color other than white, natural gray, or green, ......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm gonna need some schooling 480. I remember gray being a neutral back in ... well a long time ago. I dug up my oldest code book available and I found in 1990 310-12(c) saying


"Natural Gray" is NOT "Gray". They are two distinct shades. Gray was a hot color up until 2002. Natural Gray was a grounded color. 

I don't think anyone has made Natural Gray since the 60's.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> "Natural Gray" is NOT "Gray". They are two distinct shades. Gray was a hot color up until 2002. Natural Gray was a grounded color.
> 
> I don't think anyone has made Natural Gray since the 60's.


 The "natural" gray in my beard is actually white.:laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

In case anyone is interested,


> The problem is "natural gray" and "gray" just aren't the same thing. The word "gray" refers to a controlled color, as stated on wire reels and in manufacturers' catalogs. The phrase "natural gray" refers to the uncolored, grayish, off-white state of natural latex rubber insulation. It isn't a controlled color, and you can't use it synonymously with "gray."


http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_natural_gray_isnt/


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