# Damp or Wet Locations...



## switchleg

How does the NEC define damp or wet locations? For example: An outdoor kitchen that is exposed to the natural elements of nature, but has an enclosed storage area under the counter top. I know that the plugs in the backsplash have to be GFCI protected and weatherproof covers installed. What about the enclosed storage area though? Should the wiring be installed in carflex with bell boxes, or is romex and metal or plastic boxes acceptable? 
What do you guys think and what does the NEC say about damp or wet locations?


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## rexowner

switchleg said:


> How does the NEC define damp or wet locations? For example: An outdoor kitchen that is exposed to the natural elements of nature, but has an enclosed storage area under the counter top. I know that the plugs in the backsplash have to be GFCI protected and weatherproof covers installed. What about the enclosed storage area though? Should the wiring be installed in carflex with bell boxes, or is romex and metal or plastic boxes acceptable?
> What do you guys think and what does the NEC say about damp or wet locations?


Look in Article 100, under "Location, Damp" and 
"Location, Wet". It sounds like the enclosed storage
area you're talking about falls under Damp. NM cable
isn't allowed in damp or wet locations, so don't think
it matters whether it's damp or wet.


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## Yillis

In Canada, NMD90 is rated for damp locations.


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## electricista

switchleg said:


> How does the NEC define damp or wet locations? For example: An outdoor kitchen that is exposed to the natural elements of nature, but has an enclosed storage area under the counter top. I know that the plugs in the backsplash have to be GFCI protected and weatherproof covers installed. What about the enclosed storage area though? Should the wiring be installed in carflex with bell boxes, or is romex and metal or plastic boxes acceptable?
> What do you guys think and what does the NEC say about damp or wet locations?


Obviously the first thing you must do is define if the area is wet, damp or dry. If it is wet or damp then nm cannot be used. Now remember inside the walls I would consider to be dry location so nm with plastic boxes should be fine in the area you described. 

In the enclosed area under the cabinets is a call the ahj will have to make. For me it is a dry location but I would protect the nm with carflex. I would probably use a standard box as in 4" sq. With the use of weather resistant recep. I don't see this as a big issue but I would check with the ahj.


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## KayJay

IMO, if you can safely wire it in NM cable then you could just as easily wire it with type UF cable, which is what I would normally do anyway.
It will only take a little longer to strip and terminate and since the UF cable has THWN conductors, I would think that as long as the wiring also won’t be exposed to physical damage, the inspector would be much less likely to have any concerns over natural outdoor humidity or possible condensation.


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## user5941

The storage area would probably be considered a dry location


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## wirenut1110

KayJay said:


> It will only take a little longer to strip


You have to get you a pair of these, they are real sweet for stripping UF. If only I could have come up with the idea:whistling2:
http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide11-22.html


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## KayJay

wirenut1110 said:


> You have to get you a pair of these, they are real sweet for stripping UF. If only I could have come up with the idea:whistling2:
> http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide11-22.html


I can’t say that I have ever tried those.
They will actually remove the outer UF sheathing? If so, that sounds like something to look into.

The first and only actual UF stripper I ever had was one that I got as a freebie at a trade show years ago. It broke soon after and I never though enough of it to replace it.


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## wirenut1110

KayJay said:


> I can’t say that I have ever tried those.
> They will actually remove the outer UF sheathing?


Oh yes, very well. Just one quick squeeze and you can pull the sheathing right off. Even if you have to do a couple feet. They are also small enough on the end to stick in a box and strip it. It saves a lot of time and makes for a neater strip. 

I even tried it for NM and it works well too with that.


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## JohnJ0906

wirenut1110 said:


> You have to get you a pair of these, they are real sweet for stripping UF. If only I could have come up with the idea:whistling2:
> http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide11-22.html


Looks nice, but I don't know that I want to spend $40+ on one.


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## KayJay

wirenut1110 said:


> Oh yes, very well. Just one quick squeeze and you can pull the sheathing right off. Even if you have to do a couple feet. They are also small enough on the end to stick in a box and strip it. It saves a lot of time and makes for a neater strip.
> 
> I even tried it for NM and it works well too with that.


Thanks for the tip wirenut1110!
I just got a pair of these the other day through the company in the link you gave and I have to say, I am pretty impressed so far. It took about 2-1/2 weeks to get them though, since they were out of stock at the time I ordered, but seems it worth the wait.

I really don’t think that Ideal is marketing this German made tool properly at all!
It is way better than I thought it would be, at more things than it is even advertised for.
If I were in charge at Ideal, I would tell the marketing department to go sh*t in their hat and then find someone who knows how to highlight a products potential.

These worked perfectly on the newer 12/2 and 14/2 UF as claimed. 
With the older 12/2 UF stuff I have with the thicker outer jacket, after squeezing the stripper, I relax the tension and slide the tool back, then use the jaws like a grip to pull the jacket off. 
They also work perfectly with 12/2 and 14/2 NM. 
So well that I tried it with the newer flat 14/3 that I’ve been getting at Lowe’s and again they worked perfectly. 
I even tried them on 10/2 NM. I had to feed the 10/2 through the tool at an angle then twist it flat in the jaws before squeezing, but it worked perfectly with no nicks in the insulation at all. 
This tool is a keeper. :thumbsup:


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## wirenut1110

Glad you liked them.:thumbsup:


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## guschash

Thanks Wirenut, I just brought one. Can't wait to try it out.


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## electricmonk

*Wet location: "...and in unprotected locations ex- posed to weather."*



user5941 said:


> The storage area would probably be considered a dry location


NEC says (not very helpfully):

Article 100, "Location, Wet":

"...and in unprotected locations exposed to weather."

Receptacles are required to have *listed* in-use protective covers when located in these areas. This begs the question, what constitutes 'protection' under the Article 100 definition? The kitchen cabinet (presumably weatherproof, since you've taken the time to build it as a permanent installation) seems to provide protection -- but isn't *listed*. Taking this a step further, what about a little mini-porch roof built over a receptacle, that provides protection against 45degree slanting rain? This is not *listed* either, but does 'protect' the 'location'. 

FINALLY, and the REASON I'M WRITING: what about a US Postmaster-approved mail box? Presumably the Postmaster ensures the product prevents mail from getting wet. It is far superior to a porch roof for protection. So, can I put a receptacle inside it without additional protection of a *listed* in-use receptacle/cord cover? When does a small structure become 'protection' under Artcle 100 definition for 'unprotected locations exposed to weather'? When does a small structure need to be listed as an in-use cover, and when is it a structure like a porch roof, that is custom built by a carpenter who doesn't know anything about electrical code? When does a cast-aluminum post-box (with walls, floor, and roof) become a shed? Does it need a ground rod, as a detached building (I'm joking, sort of)?

BOTTOM LINE: I want to put a NEMA 14-50 receptacle in this mailbox pedestal for sale at Amazon, and I don't think an in-use cover will fit inside there:

http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Group-PED0000B-Aluminum-Pedestal/dp/B002H0QPX2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_5


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## Celtic

That was discussed over here recently


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## Cletis

Just curious, is a Sauna a damp or wet location ?


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## BBQ

Celtic said:


> That was discussed over here recently


That ain't right. :laughing:


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## Tsmil

Cletis said:


> Just curious, is a Sauna a damp or wet location ?


You didn't specify a dry or steam sauna.


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## Cletis

Tsmil said:


> You didn't specify a dry or steam sauna.


Does it matter?


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## rnr electric

Cletis said:


> Does it matter?


Most of our saunas have all equipment in adjoining room..which would make it "dry".. Except for light inside sauna, which IMO is considered "damp"


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## macmikeman

Nec gives the authority having jurisdiction the final say on damp or dry. Ask.


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## Cletis

macmikeman said:


> Nec gives the authority having jurisdiction the final say on damp or dry. Ask.


That's fine in theory, but we have about 10 inspectors who constantly change territories for the day and have 10 different opinions on things


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## Caustic CC

What about the uninhabitable space under a house that has been raised?
Ceilings are now 6 ft. high down there.
(All the old wiring is coming out, homeowner does want some lights down there, though).


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