# Extending wires/Splicing in panel



## WronGun

What do you some of you do in the situation?

I'm talking about being short 6"-12" , this happens on some upgrades where the panel/main breaker is bigger and the breakers start much lower in the panel.


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## HackWork

This happens in most panel changes.

I always bring in short pieces of wire for this purpose. Just wirenut a piece of the same size wire on,


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## sbrn33

HackWork said:


> This happens in most panel changes.
> 
> I always bring in short pieces of wire for this purpose. Just wirenut a piece of the same size wire on,


You know you can't use a panel as a raceway. :no:


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## splatz

Would you use a blue wire nut for that?


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## matt1124

Raise the panel up 6"-12"


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## WronGun

HackWork said:


> This happens in most panel changes.
> 
> 
> 
> I always bring in short pieces of wire for this purpose. Just wirenut a piece of the same size wire on,




Doesnt this technically fall under an extension of conductors where AFCI/GFCI protection is then needed?

Also is splicing in a panel even allowed ? 


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## WronGun

matt1124 said:


> Raise the panel up 6"-12"




If only it was that easy ... 


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## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> You know you can't use a panel as a raceway. :no:


Who said anything about using the panel as a raceway?


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## HackWork

WronGun said:


> Doesnt this technically fall under an extension of conductors where AFCI/GFCI protection is then needed?
> 
> Also is splicing in a panel even allowed ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, splicing is allowed.

As for the AFCI thing, that's not an issue here.


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## hardworkingstiff

sbrn33 said:


> You know you can't use a panel as a raceway. :no:


By any chance do you have a code reference for that statement?


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## dronai

I think it's this one

The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any
cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional
area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall
not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than
75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.


Meaning you can, but follow ^


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## sbrn33

The 4 of you disappoint me.


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## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> The 4 of you disappoint me.


Why are you knowingly giving him wrong advice?

He's not using the panel as a raceway, he is extending some wires. You know that is perfectly code compliant.


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## matt1124

WronGun said:


> If only it was that easy ...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is in a unsheetrocked garage with a new meter on the outside!


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## HackWork

matt1124 said:


> It is in a unsheetrocked garage with a new meter on the outside!


Sometimes you can't move the panel up. And when you can, that now means you have to restrip the cables, which is a pain if they are old steel BX.

It's so much easier to just splice a piece of wire on.


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## MTW

I only use crimped butt splices and an MD6 if I have to extend anything.


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## matt1124

MTW said:


> I only use crimped butt splices and an MD6 if I have to extend anything.


Which splices do you use?


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## hardworkingstiff

dronai said:


> I think it's this one
> 
> The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any
> cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional
> area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall
> not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than
> 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.
> 
> 
> Meaning you can, but follow ^


You left out the warning label requirement. 

312.8 (3)


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## Drsparky14

WronGun said:


> Doesnt this technically fall under an extension of conductors where AFCI/GFCI protection is then needed?
> 
> Also is splicing in a panel even allowed ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That is why they made that rule. If circuits need to be extended further than 4' then an AFCI is needed. 

And yes you can use a panel as a junction box and they removed the rule about using it as a raceway except in certain circumstance. If I remember right. 


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## TGGT

Just mount a terminal block to the back of the panel and extend your wire from there.


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## bill39

MTW said:


> I only use crimped butt splices and an MD6 if I have to extend anything.


I'm not sure what a MD6 is, but if using butt splicing small (#12or 14) make sure to use a quality crimped, like a handheld ratchet style.


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## WronGun

Drsparky14 said:


> That is why they made that rule. If circuits need to be extended further than 4' then an AFCI is needed.
> 
> And yes you can use a panel as a junction box and they removed the rule about using it as a raceway except in certain circumstance. If I remember right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Good to know , i never knew the actual length was 4' 


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## B-Nabs

TGGT said:


> Just mount a terminal block to the back of the panel and extend your wire from there.


A 66 block would look better. 

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## frenchelectrican

Just remember most states have some variation on rules being use the panel space as splice point and in NEC it typically allowed in most case. But in Canada they are not allowed at all. 

Yes I have heard there is some restriction on extendison on the circuit as one of the guys mention 4' is the max but anything more than that then yes AFCI rules do kick in.


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## A Little Short

WronGun said:


> Good to know , i never knew the actual length was 4'
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dennis made that proposal and I'm pretty sure it's 6'.


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## frenchelectrican

A Little Short said:


> Dennis made that proposal and I'm pretty sure it's 6'.


It is 6' the most on '11 nec cycle but not sure on latter verison if they kept the same or tighten it down some. 

Do you have '17 verison or not ?


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## Southeast Power

sbrn33 said:


> You know you can't use a panel as a raceway. :no:


Ok then, we will just terminate in it.
And yes, the range conductors will get blue wire nuts. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork

Everyone in this thread should be banned.


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## trentonmakes

HackWork said:


> Everyone in this thread should be banned.


And this guy wants to be a mod? Lol

BAN THEM ALL!

Texting and Driving


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## eddy current

frenchelectrican said:


> Just remember most states have some variation on rules being use the panel space as splice point and in NEC it typically allowed in most case. *But in Canada they are not allowed at all. *
> 
> Yes I have heard there is some restriction on extendison on the circuit as one of the guys mention 4' is the max but anything more than that then yes AFCI rules do kick in.


Not allowed at all in Canada? Not true, unless you have a code reference for me that I do not know about.

It's the same in Canada actually. We do have codes for not using a panel as a junction box for "conductors feeding through to other apparatus". And another for not filling the wiring space more than 75%. 12-3032(1)(2)

But for sure we can use wire nuts in a panel.


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## HackWork

Yup, Eddy, our code is just about the same.

It's funny how people say it's hack to splice in a panel. What better place is there to splice than a big electrical enclosure??? Lol...


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## frenchelectrican

eddy current said:


> Not allowed at all in Canada? Not true, unless you have a code reference for me that I do not know about.
> 
> It's the same in Canada actually. We do have codes for not using a panel as a junction box for "conductors feeding through to other apparatus". And another for not filling the wiring space more than 75%. 12-3032(1)(2)
> 
> But for sure we can use wire nuts in a panel.


Thanks for clear it up Eddy .,, 

But I do not recall who told me about that


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## frenchelectrican

HackWork said:


> Yup, Eddy, our code is just about the same.
> 
> It's funny how people say it's hack to splice in a panel. What better place is there to splice than a big electrical enclosure??? Lol...


Yuh ., Hackwork that is true but using the big electrical enclosure is the best place for splices and it make look better and done quicker than waste time to throw few 1900's boxes up.


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## TGGT

HackWork said:


> Everyone in this thread should be banned.


It would certainly bring peace to the galaxy. 

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## HackWork

WronGun, this is an example of my panels after a panel change. You'll notice that I didn't waste time making it super neat, but it's neat enough. It's easy to work in. And the main point, there are 3 wirenut splices in that panel. I tucked them away, there are 2 neutrals and 1 hot spliced with 3M blue/orange wirenuts.


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## hardworkingstiff

HackWork said:


> You'll notice that I didn't waste time making it super neat, but it's neat enough.


I agree, it's plenty neat. 

Now, if neat means bunding the conductors as they come off the breakers, then I much prefer your method because it allows heat to more readily dissipate.


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## WPNortheast

I install a ground bar up high to catch the short ones. You maybe could have inverted that load center to gain a few inches on the line conductors? Looks plenty neat to me, i love cutting the tie wraps off in OCD panels. Learned from a guy like that, wasting the boss' money to do a "nice" job.


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## HackWork

WPNortheast said:


> I install a ground bar up high to catch the short ones. You maybe could have inverted that load center to gain a few inches on the line conductors? Looks plenty neat to me, i love cutting the tie wraps off in OCD panels. Learned from a guy like that, wasting the boss' money to do a "nice" job.


There's no grounds in that panel, it's a condo and all the wiring is BX. They had to have the panel replaced since it was a Federal Pacific.

Since the feeder cables were plenty long enough I just installed it the right way. The Siemens panel cover has clips that make it easy to install when doing it right side up.


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## Drsparky14

Cutler Hammer has a new loadcenter for retrofits. It basically is just the same panel as their others but with a neutral and ground bar really close to the top and bottom of the panel. 


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## matt1124

Tough call.... FPE or Siemens :tt2:


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## lhussic

Ho do you splice the ground in the junction box when extending the branch circuit?
do you splice them separately for each circuit or install a ground bar and ground all with the box?


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## joebanana

WronGun said:


> Doesnt this technically fall under an extension of conductors where AFCI/GFCI protection is then needed?
> 
> Also is splicing in a panel even allowed ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure you can extend wires in a panel, you just can't use it as a J-box.


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## joebanana

lhussic said:


> Ho do you splice the ground in the junction box when extending the branch circuit?
> do you splice them separately for each circuit or install a ground bar and ground all with the box?


Grounding, or grounded conductors? "Ground" is kinda ambiguous. Grounding-all together, grounded-seperate. And now they must be grouped (in the states).


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## lhussic

*extended wires from old panel to new panel*

Thank you, I meant having new service(with new panel) located 6 meters far from the old service(with panel, all branch circuits in), I will use the old panel(or Junction box) to splice all branch circuits to the new panel so the ground for each circuit will separately connected or we can have all ground tied together with the junction box?


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## joebanana

lhussic said:


> Thank you, I meant having new service(with new panel) located 6 meters far from the old service(with panel, all branch circuits in), I will use the old panel(or Junction box) to splice all branch circuits to the new panel so the ground for each circuit will separately connected or we can have all ground tied together with the junction box?


In that case, as long as it's accessible, I don't see why you couldn't use the bus. But, I would just extend everything separately. 
(Just to avoid future problems if nothing else)


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## diveholik

In line splice ideal


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## HackWork

diveholik said:


> In line splice ideal


Those are great in theory. Easy to install, very small and compact. But I do kinda worry about putting the full load of a circuit on a wago type connector.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Those are great in theory. Easy to install, very small and compact. But I do kinda worry about putting the full load of a circuit on a wago type connector.


I'm with you Hack on that one.


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## diveholik

I agree Hack. They are saviors for extending wires in outlets that are short!


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## diveholik

Do you consider in wall splice kit to be wago connections? expansion and contraction with wires most any termination needs maintenance and monitoring To some degree IMO.


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## Arrow3030

In wall splice kits are not wago connectors. Wagos need to be in an accessible box.


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## HackWork

diveholik said:


> I agree Hack. They are saviors for extending wires in outlets that are short!


 I use Wago Lever nuts now. THey are much easier to install than standard push in connectors because they don't require any force, so getting them on a short wire in the back of the box is much easier.



diveholik said:


> Do you consider in wall splice kit to be wago connections? expansion and contraction with wires most any termination needs maintenance and monitoring To some degree IMO.


 A properly made wirenut splice should last forever, IMO.


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## zac

I sure hope those tags have nylon rivets?









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## HackWork

zac said:


> I sure hope those tags have nylon rivets?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Or else I would have to bond each one :vs_laugh:

They were already on the wires in the old FPE panel that I replaced, they made it much easier to label the panel afterwards. Toe-tags like that generally don't have metal rivets, at least not the ones I've ever used.


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## diveholik

HackWork said:


> diveholik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree Hack. They are saviors for extending wires in outlets that are short!
> 
> 
> 
> I use Wago Lever nuts now. THey are much easier to install than standard push in connectors because they don't require any force, so getting them on a short wire in the back of the box is much easier.
> 
> I like.! They should make them in line?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> diveholik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you consider in wall splice kit to be wago connections? expansion and contraction with wires most any termination needs maintenance and monitoring To some degree IMO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A properly made wirenut splice should last forever, IMO.[/QUOTE
> 
> ???
Click to expand...


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## WronGun

Does the AFCI/GFCI rule apply on all extended circuits or just the ones that require protection. 

Another words if I extend a 2-pole dryer circuit...


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## HackWork

WronGun said:


> Does the AFCI/GFCI rule apply on all extended circuits or just the ones that require protection.
> 
> Another words if I extend a 2-pole dryer circuit...


I don't think I understand your question. A 2-pole (240V) dryer circuit doesn't require AFCI or GFCI protection whether it's wired new or extended.


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## WronGun

HackWork said:


> I don't think I understand your question. A 2-pole (240V) dryer circuit doesn't require AFCI or GFCI protection whether it's wired new or extended.




Didn’t think so... yes that was my question. 


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## MDShunk

On occasion I've been asked to change the cable to 4-wire on existing 3-wire clothes dryer and range circuits that I had to touch by some method.


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## Moonshot180

Couldn't you just install a wire trough right before the panel, and use the trough to make whatever splices you need?


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## RePhase277

Moonshot180 said:


> Couldn't you just install a wire trough right before the panel, and use the trough to make whatever splices you need?


You could, but why?


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## Moonshot180

RePhase277 said:


> You could, but why?


Instead of splicing in the panel...


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## RePhase277

Moonshot180 said:


> Instead of splicing in the panel...


There's usually no reason to do it. The panel is a perfectly legal place to splice the wires intended to be terminated in it.


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## HackWork

Every circuit has many splice points, sometimes dozens, whether it be with wirenuts or screw terminals. Many people would say that splicing with wirenuts is better than screw terminals, hence why they consider it a better job to pigtail inside of receptacles boxes.

IMO, the part of splicing that could cause failure is jamming the splices into the small outlet boxes. 

In a panel, there is plenty of room and you can gracefully shape the wire in without any force whatsoever. It's the perfect place to splice. It just makes sense to do it.


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## sbrn33

Moonshot180 said:


> Couldn't you just install a wire trough right before the panel, and use the trough to make whatever splices you need?


You could but you would never get the job. Hell the trough alone is more than the panel. Add on an extra 2 or 3 hours and you just added a grand to a $1,500 job.


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## joebeadg

whats an MD6?


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## Going_Commando

joebeadg said:


> whats an MD6?


Burndy crimp tool.


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## Drsparky14

sbrn33 said:


> You could but you would never get the job. Hell the trough alone is more than the panel. Add on an extra 2 or 3 hours and you just added a grand to a $1,500 job.




Wait, what? You are doing panel changes for less than 2500?
Not sure what to think of that. 


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## HackWork

Drsparky14 said:


> Wait, what? You are doing panel changes for less than 2500?
> Not sure what to think of that.


Are you confusing a panel change with a service upgrade?


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## RePhase277

Drsparky14 said:


> Wait, what? You are doing panel changes for less than 2500?
> Not sure what to think of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's all market-specific. What sells for $2500 in Washington might $900 in Arkansas.


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## HackWork

RePhase277 said:


> It's all market-specific. What sells for $2500 in Washington might $900 in Arkansas.


That seems high for anywhere. 

I've changed more panels than underwear, if I only knew I should have been charging $2,500+ I could have been as rich as a chicken farmer.


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## chicken steve

Moonshot180 said:


> Couldn't you just install a wire trough right before the panel, and use the trough to make whatever splices you need?



Typical 6x6 by 24" trough /ends might be $50

Punch out 2----2" in it ,alight with 2---2" in panel

Punch out 3-4 2" top of trough

Install 20Pos G-bar in trough

I use 2" pvc male TA's , cheap , a few 2" KO tins may be needed for the top of the panel

This *^^^^*invokes in 312.5 C exceptions 1-7 

We just dux the incoming 2" when done

It's a time saver juxtaposed to terminating 30-40 cables into the top of any given panel

:vs_cool:
~CS~


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## RePhase277

HackWork said:


> That seems high for anywhere.
> 
> I've changed more panels than underwear, if I only knew I should have been charging $2,500+ I could have been as rich as a chicken farmer.


I thought so too, but I haven't spent enough time in Washington to change a light bulb let alone a panel. There are guys out there getting $6500 for 150 amp services on old ladies' houses. And you'd never be as rich as a chicken farmer because they all own at least 3 highly successful businesses.


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## RePhase277

Oops. My priapism is back


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> That seems high for anywhere.
> 
> I've changed more panels than underwear, if I only knew I should have been charging $2,500+ I could have been as rich as a chicken farmer.


Yeah but chicken farmers stink to high heaven.


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## MechanicalDVR

RePhase277 said:


> Oops. My priapism is back


Watching girls gone wild again?


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## RePhase277

MechanicalDVR said:


> Watching girls gone wild again?


No, that's not painful. This painful erection comes on when a beak pecks a keyboard.


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## MechanicalDVR

RePhase277 said:


> No, that's not painful. This painful erection comes on when a beak pecks a keyboard.


I would think that would create the opposite reaction!


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## RePhase277

MechanicalDVR said:


> I would think that would create the opposite reaction!


Not all erections are sexual. I think this one is more like a weapon.


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## HackWork

RePhase277 said:


> Not all erections are sexual. I think this one is more like a weapon.


A weapon? Are you gonna sword fight an ant??


OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! 

:biggrin:


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## RePhase277

HackWork said:


> A weapon? Are you gonna sword fight an ant??
> 
> 
> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
> 
> :biggrin:


Yeah, I'm going to skewer your Aunt Jenny.


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## HackWork

RePhase277 said:


> Yeah, I'm going to skewer your Aunt Jenny.


Why would you say that?


Peter would never say anything like that.


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