# Two prong to three prong



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> So, we can install a GFCI receptacle to replace the existing two prong receptacles and load side the remaining and install three prong receptacles. Also, we will need to arc fault the circuit. Has anyone done that with older wiring and not have any arc fault issues?


Why do you have to install an AF breaker? I have not put an AF on older wiring but have heard horror stories


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> Why do you have to install an AF breaker? I have not put an AF on older wiring but have heard horror stories



I believe it is a requirement in the 2011 code if you replace two prong with a three prong the circuit must be arc faulted if required. I'll need to pull the code book out tomorrow and verify.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*210.12(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
Units. *In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following: 
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.


----------



## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> I believe it is a requirement in the 2011 code if you replace two prong with a three prong the circuit must be arc faulted if required. I'll need to pull the code book out tomorrow and verify.


Chris, I believe all you need is GFCI protection not AFCI protection, AFCI only if you extend the circuit or modify it, if your just changing outlets from 2 prong to 3 prong GFCI is fine, someone chime in if I'm wrong


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

In the 2011 it has changed. The problem is you are looking at the wrong article. Note the Date



> 406.4(D)(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:
> (1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle
> (2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle (3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker.
> This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

ohiosparky99 said:


> Chris, I believe all you need is GFCI protection not AFCI protection, AFCI only if you extend the circuit or modify it, if your just changing outlets from 2 prong to 3 prong GFCI is fine, someone chime in if I'm wrong


Wouldn't changing the receptacles be considered a modification? If so, I believe arc fault would be required.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> In the 2011 it has changed. The problem is you are looking at the wrong article.


So yes, arc fault is required.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> So yes, arc fault is required.


 Look at the last sentence-- the date it is effective


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Look at the last sentence-- the date it is effective



Thanks. I do read most of your posts.:whistling2:


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*GFCI Breaker*

Just GFCI breaker it. I used to try to find the first one on the string and gfci rec. it with all the load off it, but, after much thought it turns out waaaay cheaper to just buy a gfci breaker and protect the whole circuit. You'll save ton's on labor tracing things out and trying to cram gfci rec. in little metal boxes. 

Out!


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Just GFCI breaker it. I used to try to find the first one on the string and gfci rec. it with all the load off it, but, after much thought it turns out waaaay cheaper to just buy a gfci breaker and protect the whole circuit. You'll save ton's on labor tracing things out and trying to cram gfci rec. in little metal boxes.
> 
> Out!


That was my initial thought until I thought I needed to arc fault them. That isn't the case.:thumbsup:


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

So a receptacle is considered "branch circuit wiring?"

And the 406.4 article talks about circuits that should be arc fault protected. Are existing circuits in 50 year old houses required to be arc fault protected? I still say no arc fault required.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> So a receptacle is considered "branch circuit wiring?"
> 
> And the 406.4 article talks about circuits that should be arc fault protected. Are existing circuits in 50 year old houses required to be arc fault protected? I still say no arc fault required.



No arc fault until January 2014 if you modify the circuit.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*ok*



Chris1971 said:


> No arc fault until January 2014 if you modify the circuit.


Ok. So, I figure somewhere around 2018 that will become active around here...


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> No arc fault until January 2014 if you modify the circuit.


How is changing a receptacle modifying the circuit? It says "branch wiring". Will changing a light fixture also require us to put in arc faults? How about a switch?


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> How is changing a receptacle modifying the circuit? It says "branch wiring". Will changing a light fixture also require us to put in arc faults? How about a switch?




If your changing from two prong to three prong, I would consider that a modification.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> If your changing from two prong to three prong, I would consider that a modification.


How about toggle to dimmer? Chandelier on fan box to fan?


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> How about toggle to dimmer? Chandelier on fan box to fan?


210.12B of the 2011 NEC.


----------



## mnelectrician (Dec 1, 2008)

Sometimes if I don't have a gfi breaker I will put a gfi outlet or a dead front gfi at the panel for that circuit.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> 210.12B of the 2011 NEC.


"where branch circuit WIRING is modified...." how is replacing a receptacle modifying wiring? Let's say it's a dead end box with a hot and a neutral. You take off the old receptacle, put on a three prong. How has the WIRING been modified? A device is not "wiring".


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> So, we can install a GFCI receptacle to replace the existing two prong receptacles


Receptacles do not have prongs, next week we will go over the differences between girls and boys.






You are not really and electrician are you? :laughing:


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> You are not really and electrician are you? :laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> "where branch circuit WIRING is modified...." how is replacing a receptacle modifying wiring? Let's say it's a dead end box with a hot and a neutral. You take off the old receptacle, put on a three prong. How has the WIRING been modified? A device is not "wiring".



Still a modification, IMO.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Still a modification, IMO.


You're wrong, IMO.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Still a modification, IMO.


Hey if you wanna change it, so be it


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Receptacles do not have prongs, next week we will go over the differences between girls and boys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh crap!!! I thought I was logged into plumbertalk.com:laughing:


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> You're wrong, IMO.


Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Maybe, maybe not.


Maybe ...... Here's what Minnesota has to say about it.... I'm sure many other states have the same mindset. Will find more later....

443 Lafayette Road North St. Paul, Minnesota 55155 www.dli.mn.govw www.electricity.state.mn.us
(651) 284-5064 1-800-DIAL-DLI Fax: (651) 284-5743 TTY: (651) 297-4198
2011 National Electrical Code® Questions & Answers
1. Will the replacement of a residential panelboard be considered a “circuit modification” and
prompt the new requirement in 210.12 for AFCI protection of existing branch circuits?
201.12(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the
existing branch circuit
This change requires a branch circuit to have combination‐type AFCI protection when there is an extension or modification. “Branch circuit” is defined in Article 100 as “The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).” The overcurrent device is not part of the branch circuit and replacing the circuit breaker is not a modification of the branch circuit.
Answer: *When the conductors of an existing branch circuit are disconnected from an overcurrent device in an existing panelboard and simply re‐terminated on a new overcurrent device in a new panelboard, the branch circuit wiring has not been modified or extended, therefore AFCI protection would not be required.*
The US Consumer Product Safety Commission, CCPC, states “Although the requirement is limited to certain circuits in new residential construction, AFCIs should be considered for added protection in other circuits and for existing homes, as well. Older homes with aging and deteriorating wiring systems can especially benefit from the added protection of AFCIs. AFCIs should also be considered whenever adding or upgrading a panel box while using existing branch circuit conductors.”


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

There is no one answer for this, it is entirely a local call and real waste of time to argue about on a national level.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Just called my local building and safety and spoke to inspector. Replacing a device is considered "maintenance" and does not constitute a "modification" that would require the installation of an arc fault device. I also asked about this issue, replacing ungrounded receptacles with grounded receptacles, and installing a GFI at the beginning of the circuit and he said "nope, that's maintenance. No arc fault required.". However, I suppose that could differ with every AHJ.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> Just called my local building and safety and spoke to inspector. Replacing a device is considered "maintenance" and does not constitute a "modification" that would require the installation of an arc fault device. I also asked about this issue, replacing ungrounded receptacles with grounded receptacles, and installing a GFI at the beginning of the circuit and he said "nope, that's maintenance. No arc fault required.". However, I suppose that could differ with every AHJ.



Can we still argue this point?:laughing:


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Words*

I like Maintainance and Existing. Those are two great words


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Can we still argue this point?:laughing:


There's no argument as far as I'm concerned. I won't be putting in Arc Faults when I replace receptacles. You can.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B W E said:


> There's no argument as far as I'm concerned. I won't be putting in Arc Faults when I replace receptacles. You can.



Yeah, not by choice on my end.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Yeah, not by choice on my end.


It is your choice. You choose to interpret the code incorrectly and mistakenly assign definitions to things contrary to the NEC. Call your ahj and ask them. If I'm wrong, I'll send you a gift certificate for see's candy


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

For arguments sake; what if you pigtail the connections when you replace the receptacle? I do this anytime I touch a plug...


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

electrictim510 said:


> For arguments sake; what if you pigtail the connections when you replace the receptacle? I do this anytime I touch a plug...


Sounds like you modified the wiring of the branch circuit. Good point.


----------



## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Sounds like you modified the wiring of the branch circuit. Good point.


The branch circuit conductors were not extended to another location to perform another function. I'm beginning to think you're not serious, and are just curious to see what kind of arguing endurance I have....


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

AHJ requires it in one municipality.


----------

