# Industrial Electrican or Instrumentation for PLC work?



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Programmer - Writes code
Instrument tech - calibrates sensors
industrial - wires the crap together

Industrial E&I - does all the above jobs. 

Try to find what you enjoy doing as they all pay good money.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Mainly it's the electricians that build the PLC's in the field, or a panel shop that does the pre-built ones, which use electricians.  Once in the field, electricians, install the cabinets, run the tray or conduit, pull the cables or wire, and complete the terminations from end to end. One place was an exception that I saw, and they wanted an instrument mechanic to terminate the PLC, because "he knew how".. I said, yeah I think we've got this, we'll bring him in for commissioning and start-up. They were fine with it..
On the maintenance side, instrument folks get into the cabinets to do mainly troubleshooting. Rewiring new I/O is typically done by electricians.
Instrumentation as a second trade is a great combination. That being said, a friend of mine once said "You can have as many tickets as you want in your wallet, but you're only ever going to be good at the one you do day to day.". I believe that, as codes and technologies change a fair amount ni each trade and I couldn't imagine trying to keep current in everything..
I've also never heard of a programmer bringing a PLC to a job interview, but then again maybe I lead a sheltered career.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

glen1971 said:


> Mainly it's the electricians that build the PLC's in the field, or a panel shop that does the pre-built ones, which use electricians. Once in the field, electricians, install the cabinets, run the tray or conduit, pull the cables or wire, and complete the terminations from end to end. One place was an exception that I saw, and they wanted an instrument mechanic to terminate the PLC, because "he knew how".. I said, yeah I think we've got this, we'll bring him in for commissioning and start-up. They were fine with it..
> On the maintenance side, instrument folks get into the cabinets to do mainly troubleshooting. Rewiring new I/O is typically done by electricians.
> Instrumentation as a second trade is a great combination. That being said, a friend of mine once said "You can have as many tickets as you want in your wallet, but you're only ever going to be good at the one you do day to day.". I believe that, as codes and technologies change a fair amount ni each trade and I couldn't imagine trying to keep current in everything..
> I've also never heard of a programmer bringing a PLC to a job interview, but then again maybe I lead a sheltered career.


I always hated the instrumental side of the job as its boring. Once you have done a few and feel comfortable the idea that the site has 150 of the same sensors just bores me to tears. 

Programming isnt much better as you can be sitting in the office for hours. If you are working on a job that has a fluffy design there's nothing worse then deleting large portions of code because the sensor is now a switch or the starter magically became a vfd. 

I like the industrial E&I job the best as its a bit of everything. We use the program to assist in troubleshooting, We install all the new toys and we get to move around. 

As for taking a plc to a interview that would seem a little strange to me. 
If the people in the room have no idea what you do it may be to your advantage but if the room is full if instrument techs or programmers you might as well bring in naked pics of there wives.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

gpop said:


> I always hated the instrumental side of the job as its boring. Once you have done a few and feel comfortable the idea that the site has 150 of the same sensors just bores me to tears.
> 
> Programming isnt much better as you can be sitting in the office for hours. If you are working on a job that has a fluffy design there's nothing worse then deleting large portions of code because the sensor is now a switch or the starter magically became a vfd.
> 
> ...


x2! I've been doing industrial for most of my time in the trade and enjoy it! Except those days of -40 in a snow storm working on heat trace because someone didn't know how to install it and now a transmitter is frozen and shut something down.. lol


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Still undecided. I wanted to do it because every electrical job I apply for will likely have hundreds of resumes compared to someone with a a dual ticket that might have 100. 

So on my resume I state that I have "knowledge of PLC systems" and built my own trainer. That's never really worked for me because they want EXPERIENCE. So I thought bringing a trainer along with me would prove that I at least know how to wire one up. 

To be pretty honest, my construction Red Seal is not worth the paper it's written on.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

shockme123 said:


> Still undecided. I wanted to do it because every electrical job I apply for will likely have hundreds of resumes compared to someone with a a dual ticket that might have 100.
> 
> So on my resume I state that I have "knowledge of PLC systems" and built my own trainer. That's never really worked for me because they want EXPERIENCE. So I thought bringing a trainer along with me would prove that I at least know how to wire one up.
> 
> To be pretty honest, my construction Red Seal is not worth the paper it's written on.


No one knows everything in this job its more to do with confidence and the ability to read the manual. The most valuable experience you will get in the beginning is the interviews themselves. Learning to read the people in the room and learning when to speak and when to shut up is a skill that takes a while to master. 

The last 5 interviews i have been to have all involved more than 6 people. In a good interview you want them to be selling you the idea that its a great place to work with great prospects with in 15 minutes. 

"knowledge of PLC systems" just doesn't sell it to me as its vague and has none of the keywords im looking for. I want to see words like

i/o, analog, vfd, allen bradley, relays, troubleshooting, PPE, hmi, wonderware, etc. Even if you use the words in sentences that show you have no experience with them but you have some experience with ?. 

So you bought a plc. My first question would be "well what did you program it to do".
Tell me you programmed it to make Christmas tree lights to flash in rhythm to music and you suddenly have all the geeks in the room interested. Tell me you made a light come on when a button was pressed and im not even going to put that in my note book. (most of the people in a interview will be taking notes. If you see someone doodling that's a bad sign)


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

I bought a stack light to simulate a traffic light. 

Maybe I just cancel school and try to find work somewhere.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

shockme123 said:


> Maybe I just cancel school and try to find work somewhere.


There's some merit to this. 

If I were deciding on who to hire and one person had 5 years of schooling while the other had 5 years of actual hands-on experience, I would absolutely hire the person with the experience, not the one with the formal education. 

1) The one with the formal education will very likely think he is some sort of prima-donna who it just too good to do any actual work.

2) Trouble shooting is a very important part of any control work, be it a new install, maintenance, upgrade, etc. There's a good chance the person with actual field experience knows how to troubleshoot, the one with formal education very likely doesn't. 

3) Field experience is proven ability. A degree is just a piece of paper. 

4) Most people believe a degree automatically means more $$$. That's about the last thing I need.......


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

shockme123 said:


> I bought a stack light to simulate a traffic light.
> 
> Maybe I just cancel school and try to find work somewhere.


My company doesn't like the fact that they pay me lots and i have no certificates. So they made a list of 20 courses that they are sending me on. 

Find the right company and they will pay for your education.

So oct im going to stay in a hotel on the beach for a week learning plc for beginners (no previous experience required). I even get a company credit card with a very generous daily rate to cover my expense's.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Well, the government is completely funding my schooling for 9 months so I'm going to do it. No one's going to pay a newly minted journeyman in Canada to go take courses. It's either I take it on myself to get education or it won't happen.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

That "piece of paper" is good to have because you sometimes need it to be allowed to test and interview for a job. Better to have and not need, than need and not have. On the other hand, if you're roping houses, all you need to do is show up and someone will tell you what to do.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

Developing a career in I&C can be an uphill battle, you don't necessarily need to completely switch over just because you're taking some training. IMO, attend the course then finish your industrial ticket... industrial electrician with instrumentation familiarization will open the door to far more opportunities than trying to scrap your way into doing integration full time with only 9 months of classroom under your belt.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Rora said:


> Developing a career in I&C can be an uphill battle, you don't necessarily need to completely switch over just because you're taking some training. IMO, attend the course then finish your industrial ticket... industrial electrician with instrumentation familiarization will open the door to far more opportunities than trying to scrap your way into doing integration full time with only 9 months of classroom under your belt.


Will I have a better chance in getting a maintenance gig somewhere with this program? I have about a month of maintenance experience and can become a 3rd year industrial apprentice. Having instrumentation done will also give me credit towards that apprenticeship.


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## Instrumentation (Mar 11, 2018)

> I received government funding to go back to school to do Instrumentation. I'm supposed to start next Tuesday but I'm not sure if it will increase my job prospects.


 

While I cannot speak for Canada, the I&C field is a very in-demand area for people with experience. Breaking into that field is difficult but once you are in you'll find employment. Sometimes it's in house work, maintaining what they have, other times you're traveling to do calibrations during plant shutdowns. 





> Does it heavily rely on oil and gas?


 

Instrumentation is the industrial devices, both active and passive, that measure quantities of various fluids and gases. Now again I cannot speak for Canada but I've done instrumentation related work in a lot of different industries. Air Gas plants, power plants, saw mills, government buildings where they make things, etc. The environments the instrumentation are in will vary wildly but you see a lot of the same things over and over. 





> Am I better off finishing industrial? I want to get into building PLC racks and doing some light programming.


 

The only times I've programmed PLCs and build panels are when I'm working as an industrial electrician. Instrumentation techs are typically on the instrumentation side and not on the PLC side. Now this isn't to speak for the entirety of the I&C field, it's large, but when I see guys messing with a PLC they are electricians or plant maintenance. 



As for PLC programming, you're not going to get hired to create a PLC program from scratch and you shouldn't worry about that. What you need to be able to do, with something I did as an example, is update a program so that the rotary encoder they replaced is compatible with it. For Automation Direct this requires understanding v memory, BCD, word and double word storage, raw counts, scaling, and the special instructions required to tell the program to only recognize counts between 0 and whatever. 



I hope this is helpful. I'm an industrial electrician that transitioned into I&C and PLCs and they pay me to deal with instrumentation issues, control valve issues, PLC issues, build panels, and rebuild industrial equipment. After I finish my latest ISA cert I'll resume college to get an EE with (hopefully) a focus on signals since I deal with 4-20ma and 1-5v daily.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Instrumentation said:


> While I cannot speak for Canada, the I&C field is a very in-demand area for people with experience. Breaking into that field is difficult but once you are in you'll find employment. Sometimes it's in house work, maintaining what they have, other times you're traveling to do calibrations during plant shutdowns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tried to get into industrial but was told I didn't have enough experience. I have no idea what to do because in the end if I don't have experience I'll probably just end up doing cable pulls for the rest of my life.


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## Instrumentation (Mar 11, 2018)

shockme123 said:


> I tried to get into industrial but was told I didn't have enough experience. I have no idea what to do because in the end if I don't have experience I'll probably just end up doing cable pulls for the rest of my life.



Someone in a post above gave a clue as to what you need to do. You need to take that PLC that your purchased and build a PLC trainer for it and program something interesting. Don't just make a button turn a light on, make a sequence of events happen. The internet is full of books about PLC programming and there are 5 PLC programming languages. 



Download the DoMore PLC programming software from Automation Direct and use it to program and test your programs (the free software includes a simulator).



I can't help you decide which to focus on, PLCs or instrumentation, so you should study both and stick with the one that doesn't bore you. Either field requires learning until you retire if you want to excel at it.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

shockme123 said:


> Will I have a better chance in getting a maintenance gig somewhere with this program? I have about a month of maintenance experience and can become a 3rd year industrial apprentice. Having instrumentation done will also give me credit towards that apprenticeship.


I would think of this training as the exposure to instrumentation that many industrial electricians typically try to get, rather than the beginning of a whole new trade or career you are trying to start. If you're trying to do a whole career in just PLCs you're talking something like system integration and that is going to be a more difficult career path.

If you're talking maintenance, an industrial electrician with instrumentation exposure will definitely be more marketable because they're licensed to install high voltage stuff _and_ cover instrumentation so you don't have to hire 2 people. Whereas it doesn't work the other way around since the strictly I&C candidate only does instrumentation. When times are slow, the I&C guy has their feet up on the desk rather than being useful for the general industrial electrical work that they can't legally do.

The only caveat is that it's harder to get a 2nd ticket in I&C coming from the electrical side because there's no licensing incentive to do so (instrumentation is usually non-compulsory) it's easier to get sponsored for an electrical ticket if you're instrumentation so that you can do more work for the company. But from what I've seen, the electrical ticket is the one employers really insist on for legal reasons, most of the time they won't care or expect you to have the I&C ticket because there's not much business reason except to say you have it.

If you have a legal ability to perform industrial electrical and _experience_ with instrumentation, that is essentially what most employers desire in a maintenance guy, and why most industrial electricians look for opportunities to get instrumentation exposure. Usually they don't get the opportunities until later, you might as well take this one now as long as you can still get the electrical ticket done at some point. If I'm understanding right and this also counts towards the electrical ticket (or does it only count towards a whole different ticket?), doing the (free!) training is a no-brainer.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Rora said:


> I would think of this training as the exposure to instrumentation that many industrial electricians typically try to get, rather than the beginning of a whole new trade or career you are trying to start. If you're trying to do a whole career in just PLCs you're talking something like system integration and that is going to be a more difficult career path.
> 
> If you're talking maintenance, an industrial electrician with instrumentation exposure will definitely be more marketable because they're licensed to install high voltage stuff _and_ cover instrumentation so you don't have to hire 2 people. Whereas it doesn't work the other way around since the strictly I&C candidate only does instrumentation. When times are slow, the I&C guy has their feet up on the desk rather than being useful for the general industrial electrical work that they can't legally do.
> 
> ...


I'm already a construction Journeyman so I wish there was a way to do this without having to do a full apprenticeship over again.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

shockme123 said:


> I'm already a construction Journeyman so I wish there was a way to do this without having to do a full apprenticeship over again.


If I understand correctly, you get 2 years of credit towards industrial electrical, right? That seems somewhat worth it since that ticket is critical for industrial maintenance roles. I wouldn't start a whole new ticket from year 1 just for I&C without finishing the industrial ticket, oddly enough you will have an easier time getting into roles that involve PLCs by finishing the industrial ticket simply because the job market is so much better.

Speaking as someone in the regulated I&C trade who _doesn't_ hold an electrical ticket--it's all or nothing. It takes an enormous amount of work and commitment to hack it in a bad economy while only offering a specialist skillset, one in this position is always running up against the mentality of "if I'm going to pay someone just to do I&C, they better be the best/most experienced/5 years of first-hand experience with every manufacturer we have in house/etc." The only exception to this is O&G where the sheer scale makes it easier to justify instrumentation as its own, necessary department... probably why you may have heard of it being common in that industry.

The fact that most people working on PLCs are/were industrial electricians tells you that you are statically more likely to get there through an industrial electrical career path. Progressing in industrial environments without providing apparent business value is the uphill battle and why it's often easier to get ahead with a generalist rather than specialist skillset, hence why I think you should just see the opportunity as another familiarity you can put under your belt rather than the start of a whole new career.

In the end you will have construction and industrial tickets with training in instrumentation, considering all the job postings I've seen that will actually put you ahead for most maintenance roles vs. even someone like myself who has done years of specialty training and I&C maintenance, who can't legally install or replace stuff for your plant supply, motors, whatever--this is assuming employers wouldn't be willing to sponsor me in the electrical side, so far I haven't found one willing to do so in this economy since they don't have as much trouble finding (you guessed it!) an industrial electrician who knows PLCs and already good to go in the licensing requirement.

I guess what I'm saying is, you want to work with PLCs and presented this decision as "do I abandon my industrial electrical opportunities to go into instrumentation, is it worth it?" In practice, industrial electrical _is already your most likely route to work with PLCs_ and extra training is just a head start. If you did want to head into instrumentation as a specialty, you should see that as a large commitment that could mean 5-10 years before reaping the benefits and not a decision to take lightly. Even if that is the case, you should still then take the training, over the 9 months you would find out whether it really means enough to you to give up on the IndE ticket.

If you think it is, buckle up. Expect a lot more training, "fun" experiences like taking crap jobs bending pipe or running heat trace just to get sponsored for an apprenticeship, etc. Later on you will be competing with full blown EEs for system integration or controls engineer positions. If you think bringing in a PLC to the interview is noteworthy, consider I'm at this last point mentioned here and have consequently spent hundreds if not thousands of hours (and thousands more expected) on a sophisticated robotics project that I'm doing to iron out my skills and have something to put on my resume just so I can compete with the project and intership work of EE grads. I do expect after this last hurdle the expectations will settle pretty high, but it is a very tough field to scrap your way into and most people who make it to that point well deserve the cushier, high paying control work they get in the end.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Rora said:


> If I understand correctly, you get 2 years of credit towards industrial electrical, right? That seems somewhat worth it since that ticket is critical for industrial maintenance roles. I wouldn't start a whole new ticket from year 1 just for I&C without finishing the industrial ticket, oddly enough you will have an easier time getting into roles that involve PLCs by finishing the industrial ticket simply because the job market is so much better.
> 
> Speaking as someone in the regulated I&C trade who _doesn't_ hold an electrical ticket--it's all or nothing. It takes an enormous amount of work and commitment to hack it in a bad economy while only offering a specialist skillset, one in this position is always running up against the mentality of "if I'm going to pay someone just to do I&C, they better be the best/most experienced/5 years of first-hand experience with every manufacturer we have in house/etc." The only exception to this is O&G where the sheer scale makes it easier to justify instrumentation as its own, necessary department... probably why you may have heard of it being common in that industry.
> 
> ...



I would start out as a 3rd year industrial apprentice and a 2nd year instrumentation apprentice if I wanted to go that route. Maybe I should focus on strictly industrial as 9 months is a long time to come out with something that may or may not be useful to me.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

I added a good bit to my post, just more of my personal experience and perspective since I can speak to the matter pretty well.



shockme123 said:


> I would start out as a 3rd year industrial apprentice and a 2nd year instrumentation apprentice if I wanted to go that route. Maybe I should focus on strictly industrial as 9 months is a long time to come out with something that may or may not be useful to me.


You get 2 years of instrumentation for only 9 months of training?! I'm almost insulted... I did 2 years of hardcore trade school and got two half years of credit. This seems like an incredible opportunity, to be honest, and you shouldn't consider finishing the industrial and picking up instrumentation skills to be mutually exclusive. You can entirely ignore the I&C ticket and still have your best opportunity to work on PLCs through the IndE ticket. This is what most people who work on PLCs have done, and they got there by taking opportunities like yours whenever they come along. If you want to work with PLCs, it's simply a win-win.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Rora said:


> I added a good bit to my post, just more of my personal experience and perspective since I can speak to the matter pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> You get 2 years of instrumentation for only 9 months of training?! I'm almost insulted... I did 2 years of hardcore trade school and got two half years of credit. This seems like an incredible opportunity, to be honest, and you shouldn't consider finishing the industrial and picking up instrumentation skills to be mutually exclusive. You can entirely ignore the I&C ticket and still have your best opportunity to work on PLCs through the IndE ticket. This is what most people who work on PLCs have done, and they got there by taking opportunities like yours whenever they come along. If you want to work with PLCs, it's simply a win-win.


Great, thanks for your help. I wasn't able to get into the local college here because there was a waitlist, so I have to make a 3 hour drive to another college and come back on the weekend. Are you in Alberta by any chance? I have no idea where to move after I finish school.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

shockme123 said:


> Great, thanks for your help. I wasn't able to get into the local college here because there was a waitlist, so I have to make a 3 hour drive to another college and come back on the weekend. Are you in Alberta by any chance? I have no idea where to move after I finish school.


Wherever you can find work... in Alberta, probably Edmonton, Calgary, or Fort McMurray. Keep a pulse on Indeed and you'll see where most of the work pops up.


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

Hey I'm a little late to the party, read through most of it. Still trying to figure out which course you signed up for? And what the heck, if you have a red seal you need an industrial ticket now too? Or is that auto corrected from instrumentation?

I'm ticketed as a Electrical Control Service Technician (diploma) as well as a Master. It always helped me get some of the easier jobs. Back in the day of SLC500 and Rockwell APS software I used to get a lot of programming work, light duty to be honest. Simple programs with float switches etc, as things shifted the company started paying people offshore or barely qualified "clean office" kinda people, making less than half of what I did to take over the bulk of programming and then I had to trouble shoot it or add whatever else was required as the skid changed. Instrumentation seems fairly simple, like ______ said, first couple are fun, the next 100 are all the same.

Also FWIW "Electricians guide to motor controls" by Richard/Robert(?) Cox is excellent! His PLC book though is about 20yrs old and useless, like me now haha. His book on conduit bending still holds up though.


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

One thing I noticed after setting up on my career path towards Industrial Maintenance Electrician was that I didn't want to work in dirty chemical spewing plants or out of town all the time. It was fun when I was in my 20's but it was hard to have a solid relationship when you spend most of your time sleeping somewhere else... but works work you gotta go where you can get it and maintenance gigs are always there even when construction dwindles.

My extra training got me better jobs while I was working with 424 in Fort mac, just took a while to spread the info around that I had a two year control ticket, I didn't always get a cushy job but I did get a lot of substations and a note I left on a VFD cabinet on nightshift (about terminating filtered ground at the bottom of Cabinet for motor and not the obvious ground bar up top) got me a job as QAQC as a green Journeyman.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

FishinElectrcian said:


> Hey I'm a little late to the party, read through most of it. Still trying to figure out which course you signed up for? And what the heck, if you have a red seal you need an industrial ticket now too? Or is that auto corrected from instrumentation?


At least in Ontario, NS, NB, PEI, and Newfoundland construction and industrial are two separate tickets. I have my construction license but to switch to industrial I'll have to do two more years of apprenticeship. It sucks because I know in Ontario most of the maintenance job postings I see clearly state they're looking for "Industrial Red Seal Electricians" only. I don't get why one ticket can allow you to do both, even if it took another year to finish the apprenticeship. 

I don't want to do construction anymore so I don't know what my choices are.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Rora said:


> Wherever you can find work... in Alberta, probably Edmonton, Calgary, or Fort McMurray. Keep a pulse on Indeed and you'll see where most of the work pops up.


I've researched that quite a bit and most job postings are looking for electricians with extensive industrial experience, or someone that has a 2 or 3 year college diploma in Instrumentation Technology. 

If after 9 months I'm not any further ahead I think I might join the military rather than have to work retail or fast food jobs for the rest of my life.

I assume there's no many dual ticketed electrical/instrumentation folks around so I hope that's going to give me an edge.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

As im to old to consider chasing work i would probably consider where i would like to live in the future. Then i would do a quick google search of all the big named company's in the area. Food grade industrial E,I,C would probably be the area that's easiest to break into as they have there own staff so i would defiantly look there first. 

Next i would send unsolicited short letters to bunch of company's explaining my education level at this point, the 9 months im about to go to college and that i am interested in working for them in the future. Then i would ask for there advice. 

The response rate will be very low but ive worked in this field long enough to know that a lot of these company's are struggling to find not only a qualified person but the right type of person for the job. Multi-craft people are hard to find and getting specialists to go multi-craft are even harder to find so its worth considering a green employee that shows promise.


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