# Changing a panel quicker



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Always have more material on hand than you'll ever think you'll need.

I carry a small box of stuff strictly for panel swaps. Scraps of wire from 14 to 3/0, locknuts, bushings, crimps, hardware etc.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Doesn't always speed it up, but I always get as much done as possible before cutting power. That way, if you're having a bad day, you can walk away and come back tomorrow without interrupting the customers power


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Not enough info for a definitive answer. But, being you're in Florida I'll chime in. My last panel change was a recess panel from a 20 CKT pushmatic to a 30 CKT Siemans. Had to cut out one stud and trim the other. This was in a staircase also. In and out was 6 hours. Also I rehooked up a water heater that I previously ran a circuit for. The one before was FPE to Eaton. Recess in garage wall, 30 CKT done in 4 hours. Only time will help I guess.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

-(1)!!!!!!!!Cut a big enough piece out of the sheetrock that it's easy for you to work with!!!!!!! And make sure your using a multi-tool to cut with. Cut it BIG!!!!

-Two things that have saved me an enormous amount of time is a rolling cart and a rolling trash can. Speeds thing up big time.

-any trip to the van, bring something that you're done using.

-black buttons are wayyyy faster than the metal 2-screw connectors.

-have a small genny or some temp power ready before you start tearing anything out.

-:brows: A bunch of guys won't agree with this one.....There's no more money in making up a panel pretty as there is in just getting it done. I won't make it the ugliest thing in the word, but I won't spend 1 second longer landing it on a breaker than I have to. Say what you want, but this step saves a bunch of time. Making up a panel nice and neat does not serve a purpose. Only getting the job done, passing inspection, and cashing the check. :thumbsup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> -(1)!!!!!!!!Cut a big enough piece out of the sheetrock that it's easy for you to work with!!!!!!! And make sure your using a multi-tool to cut with. Cut it BIG!!!!
> 
> -Two things that have saved me an enormous amount of time is a rolling cart and a rolling trash can. Speeds thing up big time.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I just make a nice little offset in the wire to the breaker. Neutrals and grounds go directly to the bars. I see no purpose in folding wire down and up and covering up the neutral and ground bars with excessive spaghetti.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> ...........-black buttons are wayyyy faster than the metal 2-screw connectors...........


I always just leave the old NM connectors on the cable and land 'em in the new tub.

I also take the guts out of the new panel to mount the tub and land the cables/conduits. Once everything's in, I reinstall the guts and go from there. Terminate the mains, then all grounds, then neutrals, and finish up with the hots.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I always just leave the old NM connectors on the cable and land 'em in the new tub.


I used to do that. But since I usually cut the sheetrock on top and move the panel up, I just toss em and use the buttons.

The good thing about your way is you save on material costs. :thumbsup: I can't blame you there.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


>


 That's pretty neat.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Also- get a flat head drill bit and a square shank drill bit. Flat tip for everything in the old panel, square shank for everything in the new.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

The biggest thing that will make panel changes go faster is doing lots of them.

The more you do, the faster you'll get. :thumbsup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Prep work:

I identify all my branch circuits from the old directory with white tape and a Sharpie using a NCVT. 

Check the ground to make sure it's legal. No sense screwing around with a ground when you're trying to beat the clock.

Like 480 says, have a box full of parts for panel swaps only.

Get to know your panels. They all have different dimensions and knockout arrangements, at least here in the frozen north. Last time I did a panel change I bought a QO. After sizing things up, it saved me time to put in a Homeline instead.

Yank all your staples in advance.

In the winter, make sure you have a Plan B for the furnace circuit. That usually means asking the neighbor if you can run a cord from his outdoor receptacle.

Get a good light. Four hours of wearing a headlamp gives you a headache.

Like the other guys say, make sure the space is available and cut out properly. Pre-cut your plywood.

If you're fastening plywood to concrete, shoot it on. Hammer drill takes too long.


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

3 cups of coffee and a trip to the bathroom before I start the tear out.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good, Fast, Cheap

pick two

you're not getting OR giving three.....

~CS~


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> I used to do that. But since I usually cut the sheetrock on top and move the panel up, I just toss em and use the buttons.
> 
> The good thing about your way is you save on material costs. :thumbsup: I can't blame you there.


These are better than the Black buttons.....:thumbup:


























How can we improve our *Product Images*?

*Connector, Cable, Pk100*

THOMAS & BETTS
Price: $22.65 / pkg. of 100


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Service Call said:


> Not enough info for a definitive answer. But, being you're in Florida I'll chime in. My last panel change was a recess panel from a 20 CKT pushmatic to a 30 CKT Siemans. Had to cut out one stud and trim the other. This was in a staircase also. In and out was 6 hours. Also I rehooked up a water heater that I previously ran a circuit for. The one before was FPE to Eaton. Recess in garage wall, 30 CKT done in 4 hours. Only time will help I guess.


Is it legal to install a panel on a staircase? We would have to relocate it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

mmedeiros14 said:


> Are there any ways to speed up a panel change? I changed my first panel on Friday an it took me 11 hours. Tomorrow I'm pulling a little 100 amp zinsco, do you guys have any tips?


I like to get there a bit early and set up a tent type shelter and my work table. Then I grab my impact and go to town.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Just tie the 'ol service to the truck bumper and......:jester:~CS~


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Is it legal to install a panel on a staircase? We would have to relocate it.


On panel changes in areas not allowed anymore, I call the inspector first to see what they will let me get away with. If they let it fly, cool. If not, then at least I won't have any surprises.


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## Avwizz (Feb 20, 2014)

99cents said:


> Prep work:
> 
> I identify all my branch circuits from the old directory with white tape and a Sharpie using a NCVT.


I did this from panel #1. Proper prep work is the only way to go!


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> -:brows: A bunch of guys won't agree with this one.....There's no more money in making up a panel pretty as there is in just getting it done. I won't make it the ugliest thing in the word, but I won't spend 1 second longer landing it on a breaker than I have to. Say what you want, but this step saves a bunch of time. Making up a panel nice and neat does not serve a purpose. Only getting the job done, passing inspection, and cashing the check. :thumbsup:


I don't know about you but in my college days we used to have practical installation sections where the lecture could give us an exercise lets say wiring a water pump and when you are through he comes and awards you points 
And these points could reflect in the end of semester report.

My father was an electrician mostly residential and so some of what the lecturer gave us I had already done with my father.

Most times I was the first to finish and of course my circuit worked.many of my classmates circuits never worked BUT they always got more points than me.

I gathered courage and asked him why that was so. I will never forget that answer "we look at how neat your bends,wires are getting the circuit to work is only 5 points" 

I TRY to apply those principles


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Just do a thorough and comprehensive job and don't trip about the time.
Make sure you make your customer happy and that you charge enough to make yourself happy.

clean up after yourself

:thumbup:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Like others said label as naby circuits as u can that are critical. I use to have a spider box that I would hook up to the meter for power. Charge all your cordless the night before. Owning a inverter is always good , to have in your truck. If you can go by before you are there to work and make sure your work area is free from unnecessary crap. Abd any type of ventilation will help. As someone alrrady said site preparation is better than skill.

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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

Prep work is paramount when doing a panel swap. Before you do anything label every circuit with it's old breaker/fuse location. Keep the old door off the panel so you can relabel the new one when you are finished. I also draw a roadmap on the cardboard that came with the new panel indicating what size breaker/fuse each circuit was, and any other notes that I think would help... like if there was a odd color wire landed on the breaker or if the white wire in a nm cable was the second leg of a 2pole circuit (rare since everything has to be in conduit per local code here). 

Once the power goes off it's all about getting the service back to the point where it can be turned back on. That doesn't require much. Hook up the mains, and ground and you are ready. I take the old panel and map out where all the knockouts were and transpose that to the new panel. Sometimes there is a new ko waiting for you, and sometimes I pull out the "thousand dollars" to make one. 

If there is anything you can do the day before, IE fix grounding issues or even knocking holes. It gives you a head start on swap day.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Is it legal to install a panel on a staircase? We would have to relocate it.


I checked with the AHJ and since there was no attic or crawl space they allowed it.


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

I used to time myself from power off till completion, you will improve with time but I still make them nice not a Picaso but neat


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## mmedeiros14 (May 29, 2014)

It took me seven hours if I didn't have to chisel a stud and go to lowes it would have been quicker.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

mmedeiros14 said:


> It took me seven hours if I didn't have to chisel a stud and go to lowes it would have been quicker.


Get a multi tool! Not only is it great for cutting sheetrock, it will trim a stud in seconds.:thumbsup:


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## mmedeiros14 (May 29, 2014)

I may just get one of those oscillating tools that would have made my day easy.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

mmedeiros14 said:


> I may just get one of those oscillating tools that would have made my day easy.


Same thing. It's a great buy, trust me.


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## mmedeiros14 (May 29, 2014)

I might grab one from habit freight and see how much I use it.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I used the Fein tool yesterday to cut vertical runs of tongue and grove paneling that was being painted. All kinds of blocking so no fishing. Boards went right back into place, some paint and you'll never know. The list of uses is long. Cutting out the bottoms of cabinets for long sets of under cabinet lights.

Love having the use of a small honda inverter for battery charging. Good led flashlights like the Milwaukee that last a long time. The boxes that panels come in make great trashcans. I carry the buttons, might try an all button one next time.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> These are better than the Black buttons.....:thumbup: How can we improve our Product Images? Connector, Cable, Pk100 THOMAS & BETTS Price: $22.65 / pkg. of 100


i disagree.... I wouldnt use them if they were free!!!!They tried those at the reg sh i go too... They had 100 ppl complain the first mnth! They switched back to nm94s


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

just for you guys that premark the wires according to the old directory, i RARELY get that is even close to being right! usually no marking or been changed so many times nothing is even close!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> just for you guys that premark the wires according to the old directory, i RARELY get that is even close to being right! usually no marking or been changed so many times nothing is even close!


Usually only thing that is marked is range or newer HVAC stuff, but mostly nothing is marked.
Well sometimes it will say "Uncle Joe's" bedroom. "Uncle Joe" has been gone 20 years, plus where was "Uncle Joe's" bedroom anyway?:laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

papaotis said:


> just for you guys that premark the wires according to the old directory, i RARELY get that is even close to being right! usually no marking or been changed so many times nothing is even close!


I don't know how I can include circuit tracing in the price of a panel change. Do you charge extra for this?

I'm sure if I brought this up, most customers would tell me it has worked for twenty years so don't bother.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Circuit tracing is something i'll often offer as a job to the many helpy helpertons out there. 

~CS~


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Knowing the power is about to be cut off ive often when theres no panel schedule ask the homeowner if theres any circuits they would like identified and if so I ask them to let me know when I turn it off. For the most part they may want a few. I keep a folder in my truck with panel schedules (generic) that I fill out that say our company, my name , and date schedule revised. I tape it inside the door and leave the old one as well. 

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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I used the Fein tool yesterday


Are you independently wealthy? That tool isn't cheap.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

11 hours to change a panel??? I'd just find a new profession.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Maximumbob said:


> Are you independently wealthy? That tool isn't cheap.


I've had 2 (first one stolen out of my van) worth every penny. I am not sure of any of the cordless ones but they'd be nice too.
Their only issue is the blades are pricey too and hit a trim nail or something not wood (even with the metal ones) and forget about it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Maximumbob said:


> Are you independently wealthy? That tool isn't cheap.



You mean $200 for a tool is too much to pay?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

mmedeiros14 said:


> I might grab one from habit freight and see how much I use it.


that's where I bought mine and it works great .its cordless also.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Cletis B said:


> If I had a guy do one in 11 hrs he would be fired before he flipped on the main.
> 
> Should take around 3-4 tops


With a statement like that you're doing much to convince us you're not the "real" Cletis!:no:


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

A Little Short said:


> With a statement like that you're doing much to convince us you're not the "real" Cletis!:no:


Wonder what his stance is on bathroom breaks on co time?


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Cletis B said:


> If I had a guy do one in 11 hrs he would be fired before he flipped on the main.
> 
> Should take around 3-4 tops


Poop breaks included?:laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Cletis B said:


> If I had a guy do one in 11 hrs he would be fired before he flipped on the main.
> 
> Should take around 3-4 tops


Meanwhile, it takes you four days to shop for material.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The Fein I use, I bought used on Ebay. It doesn't have the newer blade retention thingy, just a hex keyed bolt. I don't know whether its any better than any of the other brands out there. It really has its place. Yes, the blades are pricey and they don't last if you hit nails or screws.


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## B-ri (Dec 11, 2013)

Everyone's pretty much covered it. Plan ahead, bring extra material, label what u can from old panel, prep new panel before mounting, reuse old connectors, make it neat but don't be anal about making it pretty.

Personal best this past Tuesday, in and out within 3 hours:


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

We. have all said it but also Be Carefull


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Speed comes with experience.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

nice of you to cut stud to stud for repair. unless youre doing it.. then naturally. most ppl dont do half as well on original install. the curly Qs are 360+weatherhead angle?.. ::jester::


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

theJcK said:


> the curly Qs are 360+weatherhead angle?.. ::jester::


ahh.. or from meter rather.. ::still jesterin::


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## BaseDefiler (Sep 7, 2014)

I pre-fab everything that I can. I take all the KO's that I need out of the panel and breaker tabs out of the panel cover. I install the interlock if I am doing a generator connection with the panel change. I noalox the lugs and back them out. I run all the cover screws in with a screwgun to thread them.

I made up an organizer with all the small parts that are needed during a panel change/service upgrade. 

I also pre-fab as much as I can for the outside part of the service. Here is an example of sleeving SE cable thru the LB which is MUCH easier to do on the shop table than when in position:










Disclaimer, that is not my shop, it's the condominium's maintenance room.


Here is a 200A service riser all ready to be slapped up:











100A service riser:












Even put the connectors on the ends so it's ready to go:












I fabricate these at my leisure, in the air conditioning (or heat during the Winter) listening to whatever music I want, drinking what I want, etc. Building the riser on a table working like a gentleman is much nicer and easier (as well as faster) than doing it on the side of a house.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Base...more pictures of the inside of the van are needed!:whistling2:


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## BaseDefiler (Sep 7, 2014)

I haven't taken too many pics of inside my van. It's been 5 months or so since I got the Sprinter and I absolutely love it. 22 MPG fully loaded. 

I have the shortest model, but there is still almost 11' behind the factory installed divider. That means I can easily fit my 20' extension ladder in there longways on the floor leaning up against the shelf. It also means that I can fit a 24' ladder like this:














I don't use the 24' that often, I mostly use the 20' and I only put it in when I know I'm gonna need it. I always have the Little Giant in there for surprise attacks.


The best part of the van is the shelf on the right side. It's 5' wide and 65" tall (they are all that tall) and I got 6 shelves installed on it. It's basically 1 big drawer unit for Euro-bins, that's where I keep all of my material. It's amazing how much you can hold if you got it organized.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hax has the exact same setup. He must have copied yours or something.


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## BaseDefiler (Sep 7, 2014)

MTW said:


> Hax has the exact same setup. He must have copied yours or something.


He's almost as handsome as I am too. Lucky guy.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I try my best everytime to not have a bunch of drywall repairing to do. This time it was only fill in about a half inch air gap at the top, which the panel cover hid the patching anyway.









Lucky for me though is almost all our panels out here are sub panels cause we have meter/disco on the outside of the house where it belongs so no conduits coming into the panel to deal with.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Since I use SE cable all the time, I don't do much prefabbing. I do put the weatherhead on the cable, and I take the bottom KO out of the meter socket, and put the watertight connector in as well. I also have my unpainted :whistling2: plywood cut and ready to go.


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## BaseDefiler (Sep 7, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> I try my best everytime to not have a bunch of drywall repairing to do. This time it was only fill in about a half inch air gap at the top, which the panel cover hid the patching anyway.


Yeah, I was gonna say that if you slid the panel up a 1/4" it would split that gap in half and the panel cover would definitely hide it.



> Lucky for me though is almost all our panels out here are sub panels cause we have meter/disco on the outside of the house where it belongs so no conduits coming into the panel to deal with.


We use cable to bring the power in from the meter to the main panel (take a look at my picture of the cable sleeved in the pipe above, I did that because it was in a driveway). It's actually easier to use SE cable with 3 conductors than SER with 4, That's just another reason why a main disconnect on the outside of the house is not a great idea.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BaseDefiler said:


> Yeah, I was gonna say that if you slid the panel up a 1/4" it would split that gap in half and the panel cover would definitely hide it.
> 
> Still would require patching to meet code.
> 
> ...


Well most times living room is in the front side of the house and not using a meter / main would require installing the main panel into the living room wall since it possibly would require lots of explosives to make a basement on a volcanic island. That's just another reason why a main disconnect on the outside of the house is not a great idea.


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## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

Whats a nctv? Whats a multi tool?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joebeadg said:


> Whats a nctv? Whats a multi tool?



NCVT = Non-Contact Voltage Tester (AKA 'idiot pen')











Multi-tool: Fein MultiMaster.


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## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

Use one every day, didn't know about the abbreviation. I'm curious about that multi tool though, and what it can and can't do.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joebeadg said:


> ........ I'm curious about that multi tool though, and what it can and can't do.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Becarefull watching multi tool videos. Before they were a every day tool box tool they were on infomercial s all night long and I couldnt stop watching them.. id say if this aint a gimick its gonna change my LIFE THE WORLD THE UNIVERSE ...sorry

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