# Switchgear Submerged



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

Heat to 90f and have a opening at very top of room to allow hot moist air to escape.

pressurize, room with dry air from a industrial dehumidifier.
Using one duct to return recirculating air from the space. With one taking outside air mixing with the recirculating air before entering the process side of the dehumidifier desiccant wheel.

3000CFM minimum for this. This takes around 275A @460vac to operate. So since this site is off you should be running a generator. to power the unit

This is going to take a long time to dry the equipment and area. If just using the internal units with the water catch pans.

take surface RH measurements and air RH measurements to keep track of the progress.

is there a remediation company involved? They should be renting this equipment, to keep the building envelope from saturation. They should shroud the exterior to help remove the humidity. when this equipment is operating.

High RH environment is causing the issues.

were the conductors affected?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I haven’t brought In remediation yet, but that may be very close. 

Where the utility lines come In the lugs are about 4’ high they were above the water line but we restripped and replaced lugs anyways. 
We replaced 9 Polaris taps that were submerged. 

The utility lines were full of water but the second test passed on line side, load side failed. 

I have 2 generators running, 1 heater, 1 commercial dehumidifier in the gear, the gear wrapped in plastic with a cutout at the dehumidifier exhaust. 

I have Honda 6500’s running and a guy refueling around the clock. It’s a tight city street and Verizon and T-Mobile have taken up the space for generators to power the cell towers on the roof. 

I was thinking of adding another dehumidifier at the room entrance and sealing that off too. 

I’ll need to flip a 2500 amp
Bolt switch to get this on, I had the switch tested also. The riser breakers all failed but were above the water line. I’m trying to certify the gear before spending $12,000 in breakers. My guess is they would’ve failed before the event. 


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Use a really long stick............


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Use a really long stick............


Won’t work, the switchgear room violates all clearances and egress codes. No room for a stick. I’ll be suited and my partner will have 911 ready to be dialed out[emoji23]

What’s the price tag these days on flipping a switch in this circumstance?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

WronGun said:


> Won’t work, the switchgear room violates all clearances and egress codes. No room for a stick. I’ll be suited and my partner will have 911 ready to be dialed out[emoji23]
> 
> What’s the price tag these days on flipping a switch in this circumstance?
> 
> ...


Priceless


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

be very careful, we don't want to read any bad news. of course keep us posted. good luck were counting on you! ;-)


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## Apelectric (Dec 6, 2017)

Have / can you split the equipment and see where your worst megger reading is and focus on that area? I agree with heating it as much as possible, dehumidifiers and removing as much moisture as possible. 

Is or was the room relatively dirty? We have had good results from bringing in a dry ice blasting company in to clean particularly dirty transformers and gear. I don't think it would help with the water, a dry ice company might say differently, but I do think it would help if the room was dirty and the water got grease, dirt and whatever else on the gear, that might have been missed in a traditional rag and cleaner wipe down.

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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

A couple years back, we used a dry ice blasting contractor to clean a old 4000A fused switchboard. The board was internally filthy with metal grinding dust, one of the small disconnects flashed over when the boiler tech turned it back on after servicing. He didn’t get hurt, but I think he needed some fresh skivvies.

After ice blasting and hand cleaning the megger readings were worse than before we touched it. We found some hidden insulators that needed better hand cleaning. The readings were still not safe to reenergize.

Turns out that more leakage was a result of the portable tow behind compressor blowing condensation all over the gear internals.

The solution was to leave the gear and building wide open in the hot summertime to naturally ventilate. It’s normally not very humid here. After two days the readings were good enough to heat the board back up, with no suprises.

If your going to use compressed air or dry ice blasting, do that before you run any drying operations.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

All suggestions with fans and heaters are a waste of time. That’s fine for drying the concrete walls but completely wrong for electrical gear. By the time it dries out (if it does) it will be corroded into a dangerous load of rusted up crap. Do you really want to risk your life opening or closing a 50 year old breaker that is all rusted up with whatever residual grease in the bearings now either washed out or full of water? Are you insane to even think this can work?

First look it’s ITE gear. If I started testing before it got wet probably 25% of the breakers would fail. Whether it was “pre-existing” or not, it now all falls on your head. It is utterly crazy to even think you can repair it but since it is hard to get equipment right now, you have limited options.

With cables problem you will have is every bit of paper or fiber filler in every cable will be soaked and never dry out. Polymer cables didn’t start getting used until the 1970s. Anti-water treeing compounds didn’t come into use until at least 20 years later so even if they are say XHHW and “pass” they can fail hours to even months later and “failure” won’t be pretty. Any that aren’t polymer are junk. Worse still As old and porous as ITE gear is every breaker is the same way. Even if you get rid of the water the surface contamination will fail every Megger test. A Megger cannot distinguish between insulation damage, moisture, and contamination. You have 2 out of 3.

NEMA has a standard for this situation that you can use to fend off insurance companies and so forth. It is very straight forward. It mirrors everything I’m saying,






Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment


Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment




www.nema.org





Realistically if you wanted to even try, pull all the breakers and wiring and all insulation board. Send all the breakers to a breaker repair company like Southland In Burlington, NC. Call them first. It’s probably not even worth trying to repair those dinosaurs. You don’t need to learn how to fix breakers and you don’t want the liability. In fact they might be your best bet to find replacements.

Throw away all the wiring. Replace it all. There is no practical way to recover it. Transformers send to a transformer shop. They need to be baked out then tested and then junked or sent back after reassembly. They have the right equipment to do the job right. In other words do what NEMA says to do. Junk fuses too. The door mounted stuff is a bit more tricky. Replace all the meters and switches, if any.

On the stuff that’s left load weed sprayers with denatured alcohol and give everything an alcohol bath and wipe it down with clean lint free rags. Top to bottom every nook and cranny. Every insulator, nut, screw, everything. The only way you will ever pass Megger is if you remove not only the moisture (alcohol is a drying agent) but wipe off every bit if whatever that contaminated water left behind. Then give the alcohol time to dry out too. Get plenty of ventilation in there…that much alcohol can get pretty overwhelming. It takes us usually all day or more with a 3-4 man crew to do this step. Wait overnight before testing again if it still fails start breaking things down to find the source. 99% of the time it’s some teeny component you overlooked.

I’m serious do this now. If you wait for your fans and heaters anything that could have been saved will be gone.

When you go to re-energize get the bomb suits out.

Just saying…


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Won’t work, the switchgear room violates all clearances and egress codes. No room for a stick. I’ll be suited and my partner will have 911 ready to be dialed out[emoji23]
> 
> What’s the price tag these days on flipping a switch in this circumstance?
> 
> ...


Build and rig something. Use a triangle fulcrum stand and a 4x4 pole if you have to. Make a stand for a hydraulic jack and lengthen a pole to jack the stand upwards and force the handle of the switch to move up. I could rig this for you, post pictures of the gear.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Crawl inside the gear get measurements and REPLACE all of the insulated stand offs. It is not that hard with good ventilation.
Learned this during one of the hurricanes on the Gulf coast a decade ago. Sure dry it out as best you can but replace the insulators and any insulated panels. Easy to buy glastic in the right form and function. Most can be cut easily with a table saw. Want to really improve the gear replace with G10. Any electronics that went under water just order new and replace them. 
Some people call the stand offs "johnny balls"

Testing before all the flooded parts are replaced is a waste of time and your effort.

Then you have the issue with getting the moisture out of all the cables that went under water. 
You may be splicing and replacing the submerged parts. Dirty water is a b_tch to deal with.
Contact Ray chem or 3M for cold splice kits. 

You might want to call one of the ACE's that Eaton has. Most are breaker re manufacture facilities. Knowledgeable people and they can help guide you. 


https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/catalog/services/power-breaker-reconditioning-and-remanufacturing


.
Might be time for a coordination study for the gear, bring it up to the new century.

Have fun


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## RUSKES (6 mo ago)

Send a "I identify as........" to do it


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

SWDweller said:


> Crawl inside the gear get measurements and REPLACE all of the insulated stand offs. It is not that hard with good ventilation.
> Learned this during one of the hurricanes on the Gulf coast a decade ago. Sure dry it out as best you can but replace the insulators and any insulated panels. Easy to buy glastic in the right form and function. Most can be cut easily with a table saw. Want to really improve the gear replace with G10. Any electronics that went under water just order new and replace them.
> Some people call the stand offs "johnny balls"
> 
> ...


The only thing left at the lower end is buss bar and isolation parts, could these components really still be holding water? Everything looks dry as a bone. 


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Replace everything.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

WronGun said:


> The only thing left at the lower end is buss bar and isolation parts, could these components really still be holding water? Everything looks dry as a bone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes.

More likely the insulation has some.

But even the film you can’t see if dirty water is your problem. Take a rag and wipe and you will see. You MUST have clean surfaces. Otherwise you just get tracking and everything will destroy itself in a few hours to weeks. Regardless of what the Megger says you are going for white glove clean. Dirty water contains salts and electrolytes. These are just as effective clean or dry. They are semiconductors and cause tracking. They must be removed. Water itself is not very conductive…quite harmless. That is why you may hear some crackling but outdoor power lines work just fine despite the fact that they are operating in a rain storm. If water was that bad we could not run bare wiring on insulators. It’s when you mix it with dirt (minerals) that it becomes highly conductive.

We Megger cables all the time after smoke, grease, whatever and it fails because of the almost invisible dirt on it.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

If this is MV get hold of Circuut Breaker Sales. That is where ABB and Square D send their stuff. The main breaker shop in the East IS s former ABB repair shop.


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## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

Would brake cleaner work to wash down parts, or just cause damage to insulators and such?


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Break cleaner is a bad idea, IMO. I was taught by people who build switch gear to replace the insulators and clean the bus. Anything flammable inside electrical gear is just asking for the trouble gremlins to arrive and do their thing. 

There are other repair shops for breakers besides Eaton, excellent ones. I worked for Eaton on the repair side and I found the caliber of work to be excellent. I am sure GE, SQD and Siemens all have the same groups under their umbrellas. Just depends on where you are and who is near. 

Paul said it best, white glove clean. ( will borrow that one)


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I've always been concerned about brake cleaner damaging insulation.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

there are designated electrical cleaners that wont harm plastic or paint. CRC comes to mind


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

We did clean the gear fully, 2 days after the testing company also cleaned the gear. They were using chemicals, not sure what. I’m sure they know what are doing though.

Our third test is Tuesday, we are here around the clock. I have switchgear remediation on notice. 

The dehumidifier is pulling lots of water but the room isn’t sealed, just the gear is. 

I’ve noticed more white dust buildup on the bars today. 




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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

SWDweller said:


> Crawl inside the gear get measurements and REPLACE all of the insulated stand offs. It is not that hard with good ventilation.
> Learned this during one of the hurricanes on the Gulf coast a decade ago. Sure dry it out as best you can but replace the insulators and any insulated panels. Easy to buy glastic in the right form and function. Most can be cut easily with a table saw. Want to really improve the gear replace with G10. Any electronics that went under water just order new and replace them.
> Some people call the stand offs "johnny balls"
> 
> ...


I’m pretty sure if we go with full replacement, then entire electrical room would have to be relocated to meet code or extended into 2-3 parking spaces. 

At this point the money isn’t a factor, time is. 80 units in hotels, 75+ cars totaled, 3 elevators and pits full of water…. It goes on and on….we’ve already replaced heat units, devices, pumps…


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

SWDweller said:


> Break cleaner is a bad idea, IMO. I was taught by people who build switch gear to replace the insulators and clean the bus. Anything flammable inside electrical gear is just asking for the trouble gremlins to arrive and do their thing.
> 
> There are other repair shops for breakers besides Eaton, excellent ones. I worked for Eaton on the repair side and I found the caliber of work to be excellent. I am sure GE, SQD and Siemens all have the same groups under their umbrellas. Just depends on where you are and who is near.
> 
> Paul said it best, white glove clean. ( will borrow that one)


I thought refurbishing gear was acceptable but refurbishing breakers is no longer allowed after 2020.

The breakers I located are new anyways. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Build and rig something. Use a triangle fulcrum stand and a 4x4 pole if you have to. Make a stand for a hydraulic jack and lengthen a pole to jack the stand upwards and force the handle of the switch to move up. I could rig this for you, post pictures of the gear.


I don’t have pics with the handle but you see where it goes, it’s like a 30” long baseball bat that swings upwards to energize the wall on the opposite side of this is roughly 28-30” to the cell tower meter disco’s, very tight.










































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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Why in hell would bars be 1 1/2” off the ground in below grade basement parking lot ? 

There are cell tower cables running through through line side utility trough, it’s a clownshow


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Heat rises. Anyway, Wronggun, that is a lot of metal and electricity to blow up in your face, bubble suit or not.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Don’t be a hero.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

backstay said:


> Don’t be a hero.


Then what is the solution ? 

I’m having testing done, they are checking everything…

It’s hard to walk away now, the tab is over 30k so far. 

It seems to me I’m following proper protocol. 


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WronGun said:


> Then what is the solution ?
> 
> I’m having testing done, they are checking everything…
> 
> ...


i have a suggestion:
can you kill incoming power, turn yours on while its dead
then restore incoming power with no one in or close to the room?
this would expose No one to the possible flash

most of us here are afraid for you, which is why we are being negative
an arc flash is instant and brutal, it is a large bomb and does just as much damage as a bomb
i dont know if i would ever take a chance on facing one even with the correct ppe
dont forget earplugs, it is an explosion
dont forget to make sure the door is Fully Latched Closed
dont forget to stand anywhere but in front of the door when you turn it on

i realize you are dotting i's and crossing t's
if it will meg and pass easily, then it _should_ be ok

_but if you cant get it megged out_
how good will that protocol be when you are in the burn unit on life support?
personally i would not let anybody turn it on in that case

_there is no good reason to work hot
there is no good reason to take chances
it is that simple_


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I think you guys are awesome!!


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

drsparky said:


> Replace everything.


EXACTLY. Why even waste your time? 40-50 tear old gear..? Not even a question IMO.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Is this an after cleaning pic?









All in all, from the pictures, I wouldn't be too concerned if it passes all the tests.

But I'm sitting in a comfortable chair far away.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

WronGun said:


> Then what is the solution ?
> 
> I’m having testing done, they are checking everything…
> 
> ...


I didn’t say don’t do the job. I said don’t be a hero. Figure out a better way, like @Almost Retired suggested.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a suggestion:
> can you kill incoming power, turn yours on while its dead
> then restore incoming power with no one in or close to the room?
> this would expose No one to the possible flash
> ...


Incoming power is dead from the pole x former. 
I don’t think utility would connect with disconnects on. They usually ask if the main off. 

That would be ideal to have the main on. 


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I would ask. We are talking just the main and the buss? Not heating up a transformer?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

backstay said:


> I would ask. We are talking just the main and the buss? Not heating up a transformer?


I will def try this, just keep the main on and all riser ocpd’s off. We did get approval to replace all the riser breakers, so those will be new. 


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Incoming power is dead from the pole x former.
> I don’t think utility would connect with disconnects on. They usually ask if the main off.
> 
> That would be ideal to have the main on.
> ...


If you shed load on other breakers so they are juicing it up with no load they may throw it on. Their fault will not be as bad as your if it is a ground issue.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Maybe leave the main off and try once to “proof” the incoming feed. Then shut down the power and close the main and let them try again.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

anything is better than being in a crowded room with a possible arc fault
in my mind there isnt enough gear made for me to try it


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Imagine the fire captain flipped this switch off with all loads still on 


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Imagine the fire captain flipped this switch off with all loads still on
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's obviously a MUCH smaller scale, but I've been thinking of that church I've been helping. Water main broke, panel room filled with water almost to the ceiling. I dont even think they ever killed the power. Just shopvacced the water out with everything still live. You couldnt pay me to do it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WronGun said:


> Imagine the fire captain flipped this switch off with all loads still on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


maybe he did ..... but that did not involve the corrosion and crusts you have now
since it was a drinking water main the water was clean to begin with, less conductivity
then it sat for a while, dirt, grease, etc. began to dissolve in the water and deposit on the gear

do not confuse the current conditions with the initial conditions, they are different
you said yourself in the beginning that you cant get it to pass a megger test
that would be all i need to know


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Have you tested the Pringle switch yet? Time to open and close. That old it may need some help to operate close to spec. I suggest an DLRO for the contacts. For *your sake* take those fuses out and put in something like a piece of 22 gauge wire the first time you close that sucker. I used to have to go to a place in California every year for the shut down. The pringle's would freeze closed because of the ocean we were very close. Pringle's are very popular to the el cheap o customers who do not understand that those things should never be operated under any load. I can hear the words, now
"it meets the code, what is the problem?"

I have seen very bad things with Pringle switches. I recommend Triflow for lubrication, a drop will do on the hinges, then exercise the switch. Does not attract dirt. Originally made for bicycle chains. 

Do you know the AIC's coming from the POCO to the gear? 
No matter what when you do close the pringle with the fuses in have your 40 cal suit on. Clear the area beyond the room.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i would suggest some armor too, an arc fault shoots molten metal out of it


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

SWDweller said:


> Pringle's are very popular to the el cheap o customers who do not understand that those things should never be operated under any load. I can hear the words, now
> "it meets the code, what is the problem?"
> 
> I have seen very bad things with Pringle switches.


Funny...Eaton calls them 'the industry standard'.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Funny...Eaton calls them 'the industry standard'.


in their dreams lol


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

Cutouts on a pole? Lineman throw cutouts into faults all the time. A lot of times they'll troubleshoot that way.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

macmikeman said:


> Use a really long stick............


A very dry one!


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Use a really long stick............





Quickservice said:


> A very dry one!



That's what my wife said!


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I just wanna fly away at this point…I tested that switch a number of times, testing co. did also…

I can’t thing of a way to close it from outside the room, I almost pulled my back out trying to close it (not really) them things need some force to operate. 

Well if we fail Tuesday, I have a remediation 
company ready to jump on Wednesday. 

I just don’t like being the bank. I’m not sure how these types of jobs that suck money are dealt with but I told management I will need current invoice paid up through Tuesday. Insurance insurance, insurance, blah, blah I don’t care…..I’ve been funding this thus far. I will not contract remediation or place the order for the OCPD’s until payment is sent….. This job sucks money every single day. 

It seems some guys are ok with waiting for insurance…..I don’t want to play that game.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Is this an after cleaning pic?
> View attachment 169451
> 
> 
> ...


This was before cleaning. It’s been cleaned a few more times from the first picture I sent. You can see where the water reached. How didn’t this blow anything up already ? All phases and grounding were fully submerged. 

I also don’t understand why buss bar is so low to the ground, who designs this ???




















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## TEO (Jan 17, 2020)

I work for a large commercial contractor and they can put out a lot of money and wait for insurance, but if I was a small company I wouldn't keep paying for this. Tell the customer to hire the remediation company and write you a check for your expenses to date, it's there insurance let them wait to get paid back.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You’ve got some oxidation going on there. Not sure it’s a problem.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

TEO said:


> I work for a large commercial contractor and they can put out a lot of money and wait for insurance, but if I was a small company I wouldn't keep paying for this. Tell the customer to hire the remediation company and write you a check for your expenses to date, it's there insurance let them wait to get paid back.


I’m just wondering what is common practice for insurance situations like this. I’ve been working with them for 6 years+. I’m will get reimbursed, this one could get heavy though. On the flip side I do mark everyone up a rather keep sources to myself. Im 30 deep and it’s climbing fast. I will have an additional $6000-$7000 in material next week being ordered, whatever remediation will cost, and a 4th test after remediation if it goes that route. Is it normal for a contractor to fund 60-100k into something like this ?


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## TEO (Jan 17, 2020)

WronGun said:


> I’m just wondering what is common practice for insurance situations like this. I’ve been working with them for 6 years+. I’m will get reimbursed, this one could get heavy though. On the flip side I do mark everyone up a rather keep sources to myself. Im 30 deep and it’s climbing fast. I will have an additional $6000-$7000 in material next week being ordered, whatever remediation will cost, and a 4th test after remediation if it goes that route. Is it normal for a contractor to fund 60-100k into something like this ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Several years ago I was involved in an emergency call that was an SES blowing up at a high-end shopping mall in Scottsdale we had a 1Meg generator brought in and back fed several electric rooms and had like 80 temp cables running down the sidewalks and up stairwells. I think the Gen got fueled twice a day by the time it was all done it was about $550,000 and I was told the company carried it until the insurance paid.
But the company has that kind of money and a lot of companies don't so letting the customer pay for the remediation company seems like a good way to stop some of your bleeding unless you have deep pockets.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm just curious . . . are there news articles about this incident?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> I'm just curious . . . are there news articles about this incident?


Just did a search, didn’t find anything. 


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

We have remotes on ours,









This is outside the Room,


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## TEO (Jan 17, 2020)

dspiffy said:


> I'm just curious . . . are there news articles about this incident?





WronGun said:


> Just did a search, didn’t find anything.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it happened in like 2009 the mall was called the Scottsdale Quarters and there was an Apple Store in the wing that went down


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## TEO (Jan 17, 2020)

Found some pictures


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

drsparky said:


> Replace everything.


This is my solution everytime I encounter this. For liability reasons I won't dryout switchgear. Some large overcurrent devices will go out for servicing but all the smaller stuff is replaced. Insulators get replaced as well.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Let's back up here a minute.

We didn't get any pics of the cabling that may have been involved in the flooding. So what we appear to have is water that got up to where, a few inches above the horizontal bus? So some aluminum and insulated stand-offs got wet.











Dry it off, clean it up, and meggar. Function test the switch, test the contact resistance and other applicable tests and call it a day. If it passes the tests, what is the problem? 

I'm not saying throw caution to the wind but I think you are worried about nothing.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> Let's back up here a minute.
> 
> We didn't get any pics of the cabling that may have been involved in the flooding. So what we appear to have is water that got up to where, a few inches above the horizontal bus? So some aluminum and insulated stand-offs got wet.
> 
> ...


he made a comment about turning the switch on while hot, even tho it has failed at least 2 megger tests after numerous , repeated cleanings
at last report it has yet to pass a megger test
no one has suggested he worry if it passes


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I just wanna fly away at this point…I tested that switch a number of times, testing co. did also…
> 
> I can’t thing of a way to close it from outside the room, I almost pulled my back out trying to close it (not really) them things need some force to operate.
> 
> ...


The Insurance company should already be on site with a adjudication representative. To try to control costs.

your right. You should not be the Bank. The Insurance company should be controlling the cost for this.

If the Building owner still have not contacted the Insurance company. This is a bad sign. And yes get all invoices paid in full.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> he made a comment about turning the switch on while hot, even tho it has failed at least 2 megger tests after numerous , repeated cleanings
> at last report it has yet to pass a megger test
> no one has suggested he worry if it passes


I just reread the thread. It's not clear to me what is not passing the test, the switch or the bus.



WronGun said:


> This gear is ITE and suspect it’s at least 40-50 yrs old. I would think gear this old in a humid basement parking lot may not reach acceptable MEG readings regardless of the new water damage.


Exactly.

Now suppose there hadn't been a flood and you were just called in to replace one of the riser breakers. You would have opened the switch, replaced the riser and suited up and closed the switch.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> I just reread the thread. It's not clear to me what is not passing the test, the switch or the bus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The contact resistance test didn’t pass. 

The switch function was tested and came back good. 

The riser OCPD’s also didn’t pass. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CAUSA said:


> The Insurance company should already be on site with a adjudication representative. To try to control costs.
> 
> your right. You should not be the Bank. The Insurance company should be controlling the cost for this.
> 
> If the Building owner still have not contacted the Insurance company. This is a bad sign. And yes get all invoices paid in full.


Insurance is involved but has not paid anything. Management will have to pay out of reserves and they can wait for insurance payment. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Let's back up here a minute.
> 
> We didn't get any pics of the cabling that may have been involved in the flooding. So what we appear to have is water that got up to where, a few inches above the horizontal bus? So some aluminum and insulated stand-offs got wet.
> 
> ...


Water did not reach the lugs but they were corroded. The Polaris taps were submerged, we replaced them and raised them up. They were on the ground. 











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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

when you say contact resistance .. are you referring to the resistance of the open/break contacts ?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

WronGun said:


> The contact resistance test didn’t pass.
> 
> The switch function was tested and came back good.
> 
> ...


with the switch closed, and all conductors removed, has the buss assembly passed a megger test ?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> with the switch closed, and all conductors removed, has the buss assembly passed a megger test ?


It did not pass. We have all the utility lines removed. 

I ordered main switch function test, riser OCPD test, insulation resistance test, contact resistance test, dielectric absorption test. 

We failed contact resistance test on line and load of buss (first round)

We passed contact resistance line side, and failed load side (second round) numbers slightly improved on load side second round. 

Since then we sealed the gear off (cutout for dehumidifier exhaust), upsized the gen, added a heater

Third test Tuesday 7am. 

I’m feeling confident this time, weather is also on our side. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Test failed again today. It’s seems we’ve moved past water damage and are now just dealing with old gear. We disassembled parts of the buss bar to isolate the problem area. We worked our way up to the buss where the riser OCPD’s are located. (Above water line)

At that point the testing tech had to leave.

I decided to go get my 1507 from the shop and retested I got similar readings to him under 25meg on each phase to Ground and phase to phase. 

We removed 1 breaker at a time off the fingers and retested. With each breaker the numbers rose. By the time we had all breakers out we were getting reading over 200meg. 

I forwarded photos to the testing company of all my meter readings. I’m wondering why they didn’t test with OCPD’s out. 

According to my own testing our gear is a pass and meets the 25meg threshold for 208V. 

New breakers are arriving soon. I’m not a testing expert but I’m waiting for there response on this issue. They went as far as removing all isolation boards which was a total PITA, but never even tried lifting the breakers. 

They did test the individual breakers while open and on the board, they got bad readings. I asked the tech, and the job manager can we get bad numbers on the buss with breakers still installed. They all say no, highly unlikely…..


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## alfein751 (3 mo ago)

WronGun said:


> I’ve had this ongoing emergency for 2 weeks now. Currently I’m dealing with an 80 unit high rise that has been evacuated from a main water break in the basement. The water reached 36” and submerged the lower end of the main switch gear. We’ve replaced a number of parts on the lower end and remade connections, cleaned, basic maintenance. Our first insulation and contact resistance test failed, our second one improved slightly but failed again. I have the gear sealed off with heaters and commercial dehumidifiers in the gear. Needless to say I’m dealing with a tsunami of inspectors, tenants, insurance… on and on. This gear is ITE and suspect it’s at least 40-50 yrs old. I would think gear this old in a humid basement parking lot may not reach acceptable MEG readings regardless of the new water damage. Has anyone dealt trying to remediate submerged gear, im sure weather conditions play a role and it’s been a humid and wet lately in my area. Im not sure what else to do. If it fails a third time I’ll need to get custom isolation boards made, isolators, basically a deeper rebuild. Trying to avoid this, 80 tenants are displaced. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I would contact the insurance company for the building and tell them about all the work you have done so far and tell them that in your opinion the switchgear is not salvageable and should be junked. It's not worth it to try any more remedial attempts to try and save it because you will have a problem done the line. I speak from experience. Al Fein-Licensed Electrican in NJ


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

alfein751 said:


> I would contact the insurance company for the building and tell them about all the work you have done so far and tell them that in your opinion the switchgear is not salvageable and should be junked. It's not worth it to try any more remedial attempts to try and save it because you will have a problem done the line. I speak from experience. Al Fein-Licensed Electrican in NJ


This has all been brought up with HOA, Management, town inspectors, Insurance, etc. 

They have all the options laid out with a projected timeline for each. 

New switchgear requires the entire electrical room to be relocated and who knows when the new equipment would arrive. 

The conclusion is to get the gear up and running, of course with all tests passed. Time is critical on this one….. also for me the phone is nonstop off the hook. I’ve started charging for every call that comes through. 

We are at the end now, the situation has been resolved. 


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Have you been paid anything to date?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Have you been paid anything to date?


Yes, I have have been sending invoices at the end of each week. The first 2 weeks have been paid… it’s still ongoing and probably will be after power is restored. 

I’m not worried as this is a property management company I’ve been working with for over 6 years and have a good relationship with. We usually let things ride 30-45 days with them. I just had to make it clear to them this is far different then our usual work order requests. 

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## Leehaefele (Sep 17, 2015)

CAUSA said:


> Heat to 90f and have a opening at very top of room to allow hot moist air to escape.
> 
> pressurize, room with dry air from a industrial dehumidifier.
> Using one duct to return recirculating air from the space. With one taking outside air mixing with the recirculating air before entering the process side of the dehumidifier desiccant wheel.
> ...


Was there any salt content to the flood waters? Dehumidifying does not remove salt which is conductive.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Leehaefele said:


> Was there any salt content to the flood waters? Dehumidifying does not remove salt which is conductive.


It wasn’t officially tested but there was residue left behind. Regardless everything was cleaned with CRC numerous times. 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

The gear passed today at close to 40 megohm. 

We energized the building. 

We continued with testing, lockouts for elevators, damaged pumps, etc. 

During this final check, we had 6 very loud bangs and arcs from the utility trough, Intermittently. 

I shut down the gear with 40 cal and a 2x4

The final bang was very intense.
I made the call for emergency utility cut out. 

Poco found a damaged c-phase conductor entering the building. Service feeders are 50 yr old Lead cabling. 

Emergency underground crew was called In and did a patch repair. 

The building is now up and running, but poco inspectors will be inspecting and make the decision whether to pull in new lines or not 

At this point it’s unclear who exactly owns this. It seems to me as it’s theirs to deal with. 

Another 16 hr day. Right around 10pm I was called to stay on site/standby tomorrow for elevator crews. 

Im figuring as people were getting back in the building and flipping loads the c-phase was barking. Just glad it had nothing to do with the gear. To be continued. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Exciting update! Thanks!


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Yes, thanks for keeping us updated.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

It's a good read, we were doing tons of this exact thing after Hurricane Sandy almost yeeted Long Island back to Connecticut. And then turned around and tried for pushing us back into New Jersey. Most services along the city's waterfronts to roughly 200' inland were scrapped. Much of it Federal Pacific stuff, and contractors who ever tried "salvaging" transformers or major gear that got wet vowed to take no more jobs like that - takes too long. And because of the new National Code we follow instead of the old NYC electrical code when most of these electrical service rooms and closets were designed, rooms had to be enlarged, the total not not covered by insurers generally. But many just opted instead to move the entire service room to the 1st or 2nd floors so It'd never happen again.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

LGLS said:


> It's a good read, we were doing tons of this exact thing after Hurricane Sandy almost yeeted Long Island back to Connecticut. And then turned around and tried for pushing us back into New Jersey. Most services along the city's waterfronts to roughly 200' inland were scrapped. Much of it Federal Pacific stuff, and contractors who ever tried "salvaging" transformers or major gear that got wet vowed to take no more jobs like that - takes too long. And because of the new National Code we follow instead of the old NYC electrical code when most of these electrical service rooms and closets were designed, rooms had to be enlarged, the total not not covered by insurers generally. But many just opted instead to move the entire service room to the 1st or 2nd floors so It'd never happen again.


This was the first time I’ve felt a major weight on my shoulders. Timing is critical. I can’t imagine trying to organize a new service in this situation. It almost has to be moved not just for code but for minimal down time and a smooth transition into the new distribution. 

As far as smaller services that’s how I proceed with them. We run the new one as close to the energized one as possible while getting the new service as close to complete as possible before switch over. 


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

WronGun said:


> This was the first time I’ve felt a major weight on my shoulders. Timing is critical. I can’t imagine trying to organize a new service in this situation. It almost has to be moved not just for code but for minimal down time and a smooth transition into the new distribution.
> 
> As far as smaller services that’s how I proceed with them. We run the new one as close to the energized one as possible while getting the new service as close to complete as possible before switch over.
> 
> ...


Yea... now do it with 4000, 6000 amp services and switchgear... 480 and also 120/208v versions in Pre-War buildings... I gott say City Switchboard really pulled through and a project manager named Dimitri a 1/2 greek and 1/2 polish GOD of co-odrinations... will one day be declared the patron saint of electrical workers ...evermore. 

G=d bless you Dimi... 

It was never your fault...

-DDD.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

WronGun said:


> New breakers are arriving soon.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I find this very hard to believe. Are they new from Siemens or reman from wholesale?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Veteran Sparky said:


> I find this very hard to believe. Are they new from Siemens or reman from wholesale?


Well new as in refurbished with certified report. 

The plan was originally for new until I called back and ordered, they said our fault these are back ordered. 

I checked with inspector, he said do what you gotta do. 


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Well new as in refurbished with certified report.
> 
> The plan was originally for new until I called back and ordered, they said our fault these are back ordered.
> 
> ...


****,

Or get off the pot. A real electrician would just install better more relevant long lasting calm and adequate switchgear.

But you? No.

Too bad so sad. Ain’t capitalism wonderful?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

LGLS said:


> ****,
> 
> Or get off the pot. A real electrician would just install better more relevant long lasting calm and adequate switchgear.
> 
> ...


I guess I’m not a real electrician then, deal with it. And yes Capitalism is F’n wonderful! Just think you have the freedom to go out and control your own financial destiny! Ain’t that something!

Get off your high horse, if you read the the previous posts you would know I laid out all the options. 

You can’t always sell the customer diamonds, sometimes they want gold, silver, or even bronze. As long as you cover your a55, and work to code, get approval from inspectors. That’s what you do. Your comment is like saying a real husband would’ve bought his wife a 5 carat flawless diamond, but your not a real husband, lol, and if I was the jewler I’d prefer to sell you that flawless diamond. 

It wasn’t until I started a business I learned this. Unless, you have a business and deal with more than doing electrical work, your negative input is worthless. 

Honestly, you don’t think I would like to drag this out, and sell them a whopping new service ? Seriously ? 

And what in hell does capitalism have to do with anything ? Ya think I’m not going to capitalize on a new service ??


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

do you know about the ignore button?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> do you know about the ignore button?


I do, I find satisfaction in firing back though…


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i used to, i got tired of wading through long tedious and ir-relevant posts
i am here for electrical. not all the other stuff


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