# OCD with panels



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

OK, I'll bite.

If this is a sub panel, why are the grounds and neutral connected together?

If this is a main panel, why is the bonding strap not connected?

Why does the neutral look like it is #6 taped white?

And why for the love of God would you use white zip ties on black wire?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Most panels like that violate bending radius requirements. And it might be just tape, but that white wire looks gnarled.


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## KyleG87 (May 8, 2016)

Barjack said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> If this is a sub panel, why are the grounds and neutral connected together?
> 
> ...


I wasn't done in that pic , and I drove a ground rod , connected the bonding strap , and as for the white zip ties ... I said OCD about the neatness of the panel ! And the head of engineering at out utility company and our inspector were both there when I got the final inspection and said it was fine ! 


Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


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## KyleG87 (May 8, 2016)

Barjack said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> If this is a sub panel, why are the grounds and neutral connected together?
> 
> ...


And as for the white tape in the #6 , I know NEC state's the conductor must be permanently marked ! Our inspectors let us use tape in the 5 counties I work in ! 


Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

KyleG87 said:


> I wasn't done in that pic , and I drove a ground rod , connected the bonding strap , and as for the white zip ties ... I said OCD about the neatness of the panel ! And the head of engineering at out utility company and our inspector were both there when I got the final inspection and said it was fine !
> 
> 
> Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


But you said its a sub panel. You have the grounds and neutral connected together.



> *250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current
> Systems.*
> 
> *(A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections.* A grounded conductor
> ...


Also,



> *250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s)
> or Branch Circuit(s).*
> 
> *(B) Grounded Systems.* For a grounded system at the
> ...


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

KyleG87 said:


> And as for the white tape in the #6 , I know NEC state's the conductor must be permanently marked ! Our inspectors let us use tape in the 5 counties I work in !
> 
> 
> Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


Re identifying wire with tape is fine, but you can only do it on the neutral if its larger than #6.



> *200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.*
> *(A)* *Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.* An insulated grounded conductor
> of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous
> white or gray outer finish or by three continuous
> ...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Most panels like that *violate bending radius requirements*. And it might be just tape, but that white wire looks gnarled.


There are no bending radius requirements in the NEC that apply to the conductors in that panel.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

KyleG87 said:


> Anybody else have this ! I nit pick when it comes to panels ! Maybe it's from working on so many panels that were wired by people who just didn't care or were just sloppy ? I like to be courteous to the next person who has to work in the panel ! And that pic is of a sub panel I ran 250 ft to a 8000 gallon fuel tank . That was a fun job !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You think the guy doing service on this panel is gonna appreciate all the zip ties?


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

I have that specific kind of OCD as well ....


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> There are no bending radius requirements in the NEC that apply to the conductors in that panel.



Explain, I was assumed one existed...


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

I hate having to cut a bunch of zip ties when I have to remove a wire from a panel. So aggravated after removing a dozen ties. I sure as he'll not going to replace all of them.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

But it does make it nice when you need to add circuits..............


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Sparkchaser1 said:


> But it does make it nice when you need to add circuits..............


I don't think its nice, you feel like a slob if you just lay wire in neatly and don't follow the goosestepping zip tie nazi's work


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

One downside of zip tying everything is heat dissipation, if loads are such that it is a concern, which it shouldn't be with a new panel.

Other than zip ties, what ruins your day working on an existing panel??


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I am going to be honest... and I know Im knocking on a lot of people... but in all honesty panels like that reek of anal DIY. Its like pulling a device out of the box and seeing everything mummified in electrical tape. It looks good at first glance but its counter productive in the long run.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

The only thing I'm wondering about is, what's with all of the wires wirenutted together at the bottom of the panel? Replacement panel? or just fed through? Otherwise, I like a nice, neat panel. This one looks like the opposite of DIY to me, IMO. How many times do we open panel covers and say "OH $***!!"


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

If you are gonna post pics, make sure the job is done correctly :laughing:

White tape is a violation but, who cares. I did it wrong for 30 years before I learned it was a violation. It's like jaywalking when there is no traffic for a mile.

The neutral/ground issue is huge though. Get back there, fix that chit and take a new pic for us :thumbup:

I'm one of those guys that has done LOTS of service and tywraps can be a PITA. I'm neat but I don't 90 degree bend my wires. I keep them separated and curve them into place. I want someone to be able to easily decipher where every wire is going/coming from. If a panel gets really full of unruley stranded wire, I will use a few zipties to contain them.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The first time I have to tug and trace a wire to figure out what's what, I just take a set of ***** and cut off all the cable ties. It isn't worth me making a mistake to keep someone's OCD in check.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Two of my old employers would've fired anyone for such an install: too slow.

They rightly figured the OCD would be dogging that trooper all through his daze.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Explain, I was assumed one existed...


The only bending radius rules for *conductors* in the NEC are for conductors operating at over 1,000 volts. There is nothing about that for the lower voltage conductors.

There are bending radius rules for *cables *that operate below 1,000 volts.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Theres a GEC and neutral/ground bond tied to a 4 wire subpanel?!.. or are my eyes getting even worse than ive been thinking? No fiber bushing? Besides that, I get the want for neatness but six zipties? Trust me I hate stranded wire in panels but need to learn to let some things go. You tape neutral that much but no red? I know most dont but seems a little inconsistent.


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## KyleG87 (May 8, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> You think the guy doing service on this panel is gonna appreciate all the zip ties?


That being the feeder , and to keep it out of the way that's the way I prefer it . But like they say whatever floats your boat ! 

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

KyleG87 said:


> That being the feeder , and to keep it out of the way that's the way I prefer it . But like they say whatever floats your boat !
> 
> Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


But did you get that jumper off between the ground and neutral bar?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Neat, but wrong. You're not licensed I hope. The GEC and neutral on the same bus in a sub is rookie or homeowner mistake. If it is a sub, don't leave the bonding strap sitting there. Someone will connect it and have a parallel like you have now. The right way to do this panel is the neutral on the left, grounds on the right, cross strap removed and bonding strap connected on the right buss.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The only bending radius rules for *conductors* in the NEC are for conductors operating at over 1,000 volts. There is nothing about that for the lower voltage conductors.
> 
> There are bending radius rules for *cables *that operate below 1,000 volts.



 Ohhh! I get it now. I was misreading cables as conductors :icon_redface::icon_redface: I always assumed they would have said "cable assembly" if excluding conductors but I guess actual wording is enough lol. My mistake. And thank you for point that out, I still would have been thinking conductors as well as cables.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> But did you get that jumper off between the ground and neutral bar?


He needs to move the ground wires to a new ground bar.

Removing that neutral jumper is a violation of the panel's listing and instructions.

I learned that one the hard way.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Barjack said:


> He needs to move the ground wires to a new ground bar.
> 
> Removing that neutral jumper is a violation of the panel's listing and instructions.
> 
> I learned that one the hard way.


This has been talked about before. 

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f13/inspector-removed-bonding-jumper-74954/index5/


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

rrolleston said:


> I hate having to cut a bunch of zip ties when I have to remove a wire from a panel. So aggravated after removing a dozen ties. I sure as he'll not going to replace all of them.


You got that right. Then you've got the guys who put cable ties on top of cable ties and the wire you're trying to pull out is firmly attached to three others buried inside the bundle. Drives me nuts. Practicality over pretty.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Those of us who do renovation and repair work tend to make things easy for the next guy to come along. That includes uncluttered panels that are easy to work on. It includes identifying things. I once did a couple of bathroom renos on the upper floor of a big house. I go down to the panel in the basement and there's a 3 wire coiled up above the panel. It's identified "Future to attic". Those turned out to be my floor warming circuits. Somebody was thinking forty years ago.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Barjack said:


> He needs to move the ground wires to a new ground bar.
> 
> Removing that neutral jumper is a violation of the panel's listing and instructions.
> 
> I learned that one the hard way.


I really just meant to get the neutrals and grounds separated. But yeah, it's difficult to remove that jumper to be sure.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

KyleG87 said:


> Anybody else have this ! I nit pick when it comes to panels ! Maybe it's from working on so many panels that were wired by people who just didn't care or were just sloppy ? I like to be courteous to the next person who has to work in the panel ! And that pic is of a sub panel I ran 250 ft to a 8000 gallon fuel tank . That was a fun job ! Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk


I have panel OCD also.

Then I started doing panels like this for an engineering firm.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

*Panel ADHD*

I definitely do not suffer from panel ocd. :laughing:

I saw a guy making up a panel one time, and he would grab all the grounds, pull them to the furthest spot on the ground bar, cut em all, and then start shoving them in the holes and cranking them down as fast as he could with his drill. Then he'd do the same with the neutrals and hots.

This goes incredibly fast, and I've been doing all my panels like that ever since I saw him. It's very efficient and effective.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I kind of do that with neutrals/grounds..

I will take the time to separate them so the incoming bundle (of romex) isn't a clusterflock, then cut them all long, then cut (and strip) each one a bit shorter than the one before. It's easy when you have plenty of bus space to work with.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> I definitely do not suffer from panel ocd. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've never heard or read any job specs or contracts that will pay extra for taking the time to make up neat panels. Until I do I will keep doing then like the way you described.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dash Dingo said:


> I've never heard or read any job specs or contracts that will pay extra for taking the time to make up neat panels. Until I do I will keep doing then like the way you described.


I don't know much about you, but I can tell from this post of yours, that you are most definitely a scholar and a gentleman. :thumbup::thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> I definitely do not suffer from panel ocd. :laughing:
> 
> I saw a guy making up a panel one time, and he would grab all the grounds, pull them to the furthest spot on the ground bar, cut em all, and then start shoving them in the holes and cranking them down as fast as he could with his drill. Then he'd do the same with the neutrals and hots.
> 
> This goes incredibly fast, and I've been doing all my panels like that ever since I saw him. It's very efficient and effective.


Yeah, I've seen your work! :whistling2:


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## rudiseldb (May 12, 2016)

One issue I have with zip ties is if they are bundled over 24" derating applies. Conductors get warm when bundled.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Dash Dingo said:


> I've never heard or read any job specs or contracts that will pay extra for taking the time to make up neat panels. Until I do I will keep doing then like the way you described.


Maybe not written in stone, but if I opened up a panel that one of my guys did and it looked like someone threw up in it, they'd get a chewing.. Take the time, do a neat job, but don't take 2 weeks to do it.. Neat work doesn't take that much longer if you are proficient at it...


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

It doesn't take that long to clean things up and make it look nice. It also doesn't take that long to cut a zip tie if you need to. I find a neat, tied up panel easier to work in that a rats nest. At least run wires/cables in a way that gives the appearance that you are proud of your work. IMHO, it's no different than leveling a box or conduit, spacing parallel conduit runs evenly, etc.


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## petepdx (May 13, 2015)

I'm not saying one way or other on zip times, but if you do use them, only tighten them enough so they will stay in place. Makes them easy to cut. No chance of damaging the insulation either from flow or being nicked when the tie is cut.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

So here is my OCD…

Obviously I'm not done yet. 






































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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

This is the most OCD you will see from me.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

I don't go crazy about panel wiring but I do want it to look fairly decent. A messy install would drive me crazy. Check out this mess. This would drive me crazy. I was.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

rrolleston said:


> I don't go crazy about panel wiring but I do want it to look fairly decent. A messy install would drive me crazy. Check out this mess. This would drive me crazy. I was.


I hope your panels are clearer then your pictures! 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> I definitely do not suffer from panel ocd. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Must be a North Carolina thing! 👍


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Here's one I did two weeks ago








No sharp bends no tie wraps unless the boss starts crying about them. And if he does I leave em a little loose in case you have to sneak a couple in after the fact


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

LightsOn81 said:


> Must be a North Carolina thing! 👍


We run into that junk in nc all the time. I had to take the time to stop and cut nearly three pounds of extra wire out of one because we couldn't figure out where anything went, screws stripped everywhere nothing labeled well and the same quality of work in the rest of the house

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

petepdx said:


> I'm not saying one way or other on zip times, but if you do use them, only tighten them enough so they will stay in place. Makes them easy to cut. No chance of damaging the insulation either from flow or being nicked when the tie is cut.


The proper way to cut a wire tie is to grab the hub with your lineman pliers and twist. It snaps right off and no chance of cutting the wire or nicking the insulation with your *****.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> The proper way to cut a wire tie is to grab the hub with your lineman pliers and twist. It snaps right off and no chance of cutting the wire or nicking the insulation with your *****.


And roll the nub to the back for a cleaner look...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

glen1971 said:


> And roll the nub to the back for a cleaner look...


I think we may be talking about 2 different things here.

When installing a wire tie and cutting the slack off, you grab the tie as it comes out of the nub with lineman pliers and twist it off. This breaks it off clean and smooth, unlike cutting with ***** which leaves a sharp edge. Then twist the nub around to the back like you said.

What I was talking about above was what to do when removing the wire tie. To remove it, I simply grab the entire nub with my lineman pliers and twist. This breaks it right off without damaging the wires. This works well when a wire tie is very tight and it's hard to get a pair of ***** under it without damaging the insulation.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

This is an existing panel we are interfacing to. Hopefully I attached the pictures OK.

Frankly, the electricians did about as well as could be expected given what they had to work with. Whoever designed it and specified all field wiring needed to be #14 needed to be shot.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> I think we may be talking about 2 different things here.
> 
> When installing a wire tie and cutting the slack off, you grab the tie as it comes out of the nub with lineman pliers and twist it off. This breaks it off clean and smooth, unlike cutting with ***** which leaves a sharp edge. Then twist the nub around to the back like you said.
> 
> What I was talking about above was what to do when removing the wire tie. To remove it, I simply grab the entire nub with my lineman pliers and twist. This breaks it right off without damaging the wires. This works well when a wire tie is very tight and it's hard to get a pair of ***** under it without damaging the insulation.


Works well with the cheap, brittle Chinese tie wraps.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Works well with the cheap, brittle Chinese tie wraps.


It works with every brand of tie wrap I've ever used. I never really paid much attention to the brand, but I must have used dozens over the years.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> It works with every brand of tie wrap I've ever used. I never really paid much attention to the brand, but I must have used dozens over the years.


Doesn't always work with the black, UV rated ones.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Doesn't always work with the black, UV rated ones.


I'm not trying to be argumentative here. But I commonly have to remove phone and cable wires that the silly installers wire tied to the service riser or SEU cable when I upgrade services and the twist method has always worked. A nice quick flip of the wrist snaps it right off.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> It works with every brand of tie wrap I've ever used. I never really paid much attention to the brand, but I must have used dozens over the years.



You'd be doing all kinds of twisting and tugging with nylon tie wraps, they are not brittle or breakable like the plastic ones by any means.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Mech Diver said:


> You'd be doing all kinds of twisting and tugging with nylon tie wraps, they are not brittle or breakable like the plastic ones by any means.


OK, you guys are right... 

In 20 years I never used a nylon tie wrap lol


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> OK, you guys are right...
> 
> In 20 years I never used a nylon tie wrap lol


I'm not shocked, they are way more expensive than the plastic ones that most supply houses have in the bag of 100 hanging at the counter. The plus is they don't dry out and break on their own a couple years down the road or break down from solar exposure.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Mech Diver said:


> I'm not shocked, they are way more expensive than the plastic ones that most supply houses have in the bag of 100 hanging at the counter. The plus is they don't dry out and break on their own a couple years down the road or break down from solar exposure.


I just looked in the back of the truck, the ones I have now are Thomas and Betts "Ty-Rap" 11" nylon cable ties.

The last ones that I had on the truck were Panduit, I remember that brand name specifically because I remember saying to myself "This is a low voltage manufacturer" when I saw the name. Panduit is a good brand and I'm sure their wire ties are nylon.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Jrzy said:


> It works with every brand of tie wrap I've ever used. I never really paid much attention to the brand, but I must have used dozens over the years.


Yes, grabbing the nub and twisting works fine IF you have enough room to get your pliers in there to do it.

Often times I'm more concerned with accidently pulling a wire loose from a terminal.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> I just looked in the back of the truck, the ones I have now are Thomas and Betts "Ty-Rap" 11" nylon cable ties.
> 
> The last ones that I had on the truck were Panduit, I remember that brand name specifically because I remember saying to myself "This is a low voltage manufacturer" when I saw the name. Panduit is a good brand and I'm sure their wire ties are nylon.


It's probably useless trivia but T & B invented cable ties. Panduit got into the game later (maybe waiting for a patent to expire?) but I know at one time it represented a big part of their business. Panduit may have been the first to call them "cable ties" since Ty Rap was a T & B trade name.

Why does spell check turn Panduit into "pantsuit"? Hillary is everywhere 
.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

bill39 said:


> This is an existing panel we are interfacing to. Hopefully I attached the pictures OK.
> 
> Frankly, the electricians did about as well as could be expected given what they had to work with. Whoever designed it and specified all field wiring needed to be #14 needed to be shot.


Those terminal blocks ought to have been DIN rails. The European (German) scheme eliminates the need for Stak-Ons, as the terminal blocks have plate compression connections.

They also provide for DIN jumpers that go on in a flash.

And a top slot for legends// labels... with printing machines dialled in to match.

That puppy looks like days of work -- right there. :blink:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jrzy said:


> I just looked in the back of the truck, the ones I have now are Thomas and Betts "Ty-Rap" 11" nylon cable ties.
> 
> The last ones that I had on the truck were Panduit, I remember that brand name specifically because I remember saying to myself "This is a low voltage manufacturer" when I saw the name. Panduit is a good brand and I'm sure their wire ties are nylon.



All I know is the good quality ones don't just snap off they break down to several strands, the cheap ones just snap off cleanly. I looked at Panduit wraps I have here and they all say nylon but some are more brittle than others. 
I rather cut them and avoid other problems.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have never encountered a zip tie that couldn't be broken by twisting it with my pliers. And I don't recall seeing one that wasn't nylon.


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