# Romex stackers



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

There's some pretty NM in this thread - http://www.electriciantalk.com/f9/service-panel-organizational-skills-99449/


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

samgregger said:


> There's some pretty NM in this thread - http://www.electriciantalk.com/f9/service-panel-organizational-skills-99449/


Not really what I'm looking for. The normal hack way of doing it is to just bundle them up in 2" PVC straps but that aint gonna fly. I need an approved method of support.

I could use these but we would go through a million of them. I once saw a photo on this site of a metal stick (not a very technical description...) with tabs on it (I think...) used to stack cable. Can't find it though.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

2''x2'' furring strips with tie wraps. Run horizontal above the panel. They make zip ties with a round end piece that you run a screw thru to secure it to the surface. Bundling starts at 9 current carrying conductors for romex in USA, haven't got a clue about your code requirements on it. I put two or three cables thru each tie wrap.


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## Mouser (May 4, 2011)

search for "Colorado Jim" Cable Support from Erico.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> 2''x2'' furring strips with tie wraps. Run horizontal above the panel. They make zip ties with a round end piece that you run a screw thru to secure it to the surface. Bundling starts at 9 current carrying conductors for romex in USA, haven't got a clue about your code requirements on it. I put two or three cables thru each tie wrap.


Thanks but cable ties aren't considered an approved method.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> Thanks but cable ties aren't considered an approved method.


Allright, well then,,,,, if you are flush mounting your panels, just put a horizontal cut of 2''x4'' above the panels mounted on edge and staple the runs to the flat side two cables per ''approved method'' .


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

FWIW stub 3/4 or 1" PVC out of the top and at least you won't have a rats nest at the panel and simpull romex might pull easier through the pvc.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Why not ask the inspector?


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Very good point. That way it's the way he wants it & your not fixing it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't like consulting inspectors near to as much as I like reading and referencing my code book. I have heard way too much nonsensical music come out of their mouths over the decades. 


Can't have a panel within 10 feet of a mop sink, one outlet between two bath sinks is not permitted by code- you need one for each bowl, ground rods must be no more than 6 feet apart. 

Those are just three of the gems.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Mouser said:


> search for "Colorado Jim" Cable Support from Erico.


That's EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thank you. :thumbup:


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## Mouser (May 4, 2011)

Your welcome 99. :thumbup:


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Ladder tray is reasonably cheap for the finished product. You might want to run that past the inspector and see what he thinks. Also ask about what you could do for stacking cables on top of each other in the ladder tray, assuming your allowed to use it.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Why do so many people insist on asking the inspector how to do their job. If you use the appropriate materials in the appropriate manner there is no need for a conversation


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Why do so many people insist on asking the inspector how to do their job. If you use the appropriate materials in the appropriate manner there is no need for a conversation
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Generally it is because of that part in the front of the book that says the AHJ has final say on acceptance of work. The NEC is the minimum standard, not the maximum.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> Thanks but cable ties aren't considered an approved method.


Says who? Or is it whom?

This inspector sounds like a winner.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

drewsserviceco said:


> Generally it is because of that part in the front of the book that says the AHJ has final say on acceptance of work. The NEC is the minimum standard, not the maximum.



The field inspector is hardly ever the ahj. And you're saying an inspector can require methods and materials other than the minimum standard? Yeah right. That would fall under local amendments but not to the yokel who puts red tags and green tags on meter cans. 


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> The field inspector is hardly ever the ahj. And you're saying an inspector can require methods and materials other than the minimum standard? Yeah right. That would fall under local amendments but not to the yokel who puts red tags and green tags on meter cans.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Did I wander into the Canadian section by accident? Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. That is why they are the AHJ, because it's their jurisdiction and they have all the authority. 

Now, I'm not saying kiss this guys ass and I'm also not saying to ask him how to do my job. 

What I am saying is that with a little forethought and planning, present a solution to his already communicated stipulation showing your competency and craftsmanship.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Says who? Or is it whom?
> 
> This inspector sounds like a winner.



Right

334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4½ ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.

This is Canada though so they must have a stricter rule

And did they really need to say cable sleeved in a raceway doesn't need to be secure inside the raceway? Smh 


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I use the cj 6 when doing those rare steel stud and romex basements. If I found myself without stackers or the GB red ones, I'll use them on wooden studs. We'll use them horizontally along joists too. Check the Arlington catalog for ideas. They have plastic gutter like trough available too.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I have a Romex job about once every year or two, so I'm not the most experienced, but this is how I did my last one:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I had an inspector tell me recently that not more than eight wires can be bundled together. That means not more than eight romex in one drilled hole, wire tired together or in a stack it.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Cow said:


> I have a Romex job about once every year or two, so I'm not the most experienced, but this is how I did my last one:


 Very nice panel make-up. Not residential? No AFCI crap?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

3DDesign said:


> I had an inspector tell me recently that not more than eight wires can be bundled together. That means not more than eight romex in one drilled hole, wire tired together or in a stack it.


Correct me if I am wrong , but, wouldn't they have to be derated 50% according to NEC table 310.15B3a? Eight hots + eight neutrals=16 current carrying conductors.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> Okay, we call it Loomex in Canada but it's the same thing - NMD. We're doing a hotel job and the inspector has made it quite clear up front that he will not tolerate bundling and wants to see adequate separation of cable coming into our panels. ......


As Ponyboy clarified, this is Canada, so the actual code might be different, but under the NEC, you can absolutely bundle up to four home run cables (8 CCC) without need for further derating.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ah, cable stackers, another product in the growing list of code requirements I cannot be bothered to give two flying f**ks about. 

The only time I've ever found those things useful is long horizontal homeruns: Install them facing-up and you've got yourself a little mini cable-tray: Much faster than securing a half-dozen cables to the side of a joist.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The OP issue is bundling , _define_ bundling. 

My definition (which can be confronted) is conductors and/or conductor jackets touching each otheR for more than 24" (NEC , not sure of CEC)

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Holy Cow!*










Jesu' , that's _'psychiatric cry for help'_ level neat Cow.....:thumbup:~CS~:laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

So cable ties aren't approved for tying cable... I'll be jiggered. Damn lying packages.


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## derit (Jul 26, 2015)

Mouser said:


> search for "Colorado Jim" Cable Support from Erico.


Folding over that segment of thin sheet metal never feels secure to me, like if a cable were yanked after the installation, the whole thing would fly apart.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Cow said:


> I have a Romex job about once every year or two, so I'm not the most experienced, but this is how I did my last one:


Teach me your ways.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I've always done my panels like this...










Seems to work. Two NMDs under a staple or a hole.

Data he can go pound sand, - but I run em neat anyway. All my wiring is done at 90 degrees never as the crow flies.

Danm drywallers have covered up many a pretty job. Oh well.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> There is no helping you understand i see. Enjoy bending over for your inspector the rest of your career.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I have a wonderful working relationship with all the inspectors I interact with. I find that not being so adversarial and engaging in a dialogue they are much more willing to entertain the solutions I offer. Every so often I learn something new, most of the time I am able to articulate my interpretation of the code. It seems that this approach is easier for all involved.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I thought this thread was about Romex _slackers_.

But after seeing the 'retentive' photos... 'stackers' must be right.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

drewsserviceco said:


> I have a wonderful working relationship with all the inspectors I interact with. I find that not being so adversarial and engaging in a dialogue they are much more willing to entertain the solutions I offer. Every so often I learn something new, most of the time I am able to articulate my interpretation of the code. It seems that this approach is easier for all involved.



I still don't understand your philosophy. We shouldn't have to "entertain solutions" to electrical inspectors. When you use the correct material in accordance with the nec there is NO reason to anyone should have to "articulate their interpretation". I'm glad it works for you, really I am, but I've taken pretty much the opposite stance as you and have had many successful inspections and projects that many would consider code heavy 


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Jesu' , that's _'psychiatric cry for help'_ level neat Cow.....:thumbup:~CS~:laughing:



Two things stand out, the angle of the bends and the bundling. While not as bad I am imagining this (though in resi load diversity is so radical I doubt the wire will ever overheat):


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd like to see the loads supplied by that Acidic One....maybe a dz electric heat units?

Hard to imagine that happening in a normal resi situation

Case in point, most manufactured homes have bundled runs, 2nd flr may all come down together, panel on out is usually just a stuffed 2" hole run

Or maybe those_ 'zipper homes' _are so badly insulated it'll never heat a run up....?


~CS~


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I think some 'testing' was going on here. It would be interesting to know what current was being passed through the conductors, etc.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

te12co2w said:


> Very nice panel make-up. Not residential? No AFCI crap?


Thank you, this was an office built at one end of a warehouse.



AcidTrip said:


> Two things stand out, the angle of the bends and the bundling. While not as bad I am imagining this (though in resi load diversity is so radical I doubt the wire will ever overheat):


I don't consider the bends sharp at all, and I'm not worried about the little bit of bundling in this panel, I think it's a nonissue.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Cow said:


> Thank you, this was an office built at one end of a warehouse.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider the bends sharp at all, and I'm not worried about the little bit of bundling in this panel, I think it's a nonissue.


I agree. The wires in your panel are different than the cables laying in a blanket of insulation.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I guess it's just lack of clarity, but it looks like the ground lands on the neutral bar and the green neutral bo d screw is still in.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

InPhase277 said:


> I guess it's just lack of clarity, but it looks like the ground lands on the neutral bar and the green neutral bo d screw is still in.



That would be kosher 


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Cow said:


> Thank you, this was an office built at one end of a warehouse.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider the bends sharp at all, and I'm not worried about the little bit of bundling in this panel, I think it's a nonissue.


 If the loadthe load is transient I wouldn't worry about it. But a lighting panel I might get worried (at least I do).


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I'd like to see the loads supplied by that Acidic One....maybe a dz electric heat units?
> 
> Hard to imagine that happening in a normal resi situation
> 
> ...





daveEM said:


> I think some 'testing' was going on here. It would be interesting to know what current was being passed through the conductors, etc.



Im wondering the same, a good chunk of those conductors must have been loaded, and for some time.


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## gryczewskip (Oct 27, 2015)

Wouldn't pass in America can not bend rope 90 degrees. Must have a radius no less 5 times its diameter. About the radiusof a pop can. Coke for me


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Can you use the stackers more often than not to save time? Instead of fiddling around with the small little staples?


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

gryczewskip said:


> Wouldn't pass in America can not bend rope 90 degrees. Must have a radius no less 5 times its diameter. About the radiusof a pop can.


Canadian standard is a lot looser:


> 42-508 ... cable shall not be bent, handled, or stapled so that the insulated conductors or outer covering is damaged


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> The OP issue is bundling , _define_ bundling.
> 
> 
> ~CS~


It's an Amish thing, you wouldn't understand.........


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I love 3M Stack-its.:thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's the only way to meet 300.4(D) in 2x4 construction 

jmho

~CS~


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

You can install blocking but the nail on devices are easier.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> It's the only way to meet 300.4(D) in 2x4 construction
> 
> jmho
> 
> ~CS~


Our state has an exception for that one but I still use them.


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

Can you use a sliding caddy bracket http://www.cableorganizer.com/erico/adjustable-box-mounting-bracket/ 
and 3/8 clips or 1/2 pipe clips to secure the cable when coming into a panel? 

I use Colorado Jims to support wires that go in boxes but never have for panels as I use a sliding bracket and used to use nylon tie wraps but there is a fire issue associated with them because they can melt so I switched to using the clips with the bracket and have had no issues. Also when using Colorado's be careful to just lightly secure the wire. I have seen some clamped so tight that they actually damaged the Romex insulation and in 2 instances have created shorts because there were too many wires in one clip and they were clamped too tight. Sounds silly but make sure you follow the directions on the amount of cables allowed in one Colorado


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

As far as i know securing to brackets isn't a problem.

And i thought panduit got their tie wraps listed for securing NM a while ago?

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> As far as i know securing to brackets isn't a problem.
> 
> And i thought panduit got their tie wraps listed for securing NM a while ago?
> 
> ~CS~


We have a little memo here in Alberta that says they're good for securing but not supporting. For instance, you can use cable ties in tray to make the cable pretty but you can't use them as a means of support.


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