# Apprentices and cordless drills



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think that the contractor should still provide all the power tools, but I cannot deny a clear trend toward the employees providing at least their own cordless drill. Sounds like you're working for one of those companies that wants you to provide your own cordless. Do I agree with that? No. Do I find it to be an unusual requirement? No, again. It's getting more and more common. 

If you're considering buying any of your own power tools, at least have this conversation with your boss. "If I provide my own cordless drill, will you pay to have it fixed or replaced if it breaks"? If the answer is anything other than YES, don't get your own.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I agree with Marc, BUT any man in any trade worth his salt has personal power tools for use at home. The tools should not go to waste once you are able to get back to a better firm.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

It is really frustrating to not have needed power tools on hand when something has to get done. I found myself using a carpenter's grinder at one point. We were provided with a chop saw for cutting metal rods, etc. In the first meeting with my boss he just mentioned the hand tools I would need but no discussion about power tools.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> It is really frustrating to not have needed power tools on hand when something has to get done. I found myself using a carpenter's grinder at one point. We were provided with a chop saw for cutting metal rods, etc. In the first meeting with my boss he just mentioned the hand tools I would need but no discussion about power tools.


Was a hacksaw on that list? You can cut pencil rod and all thread with a hacksaw too, you know. Heck, I've cut more than my fair share of RMC and Kindorf with a hacksaw.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree with Marc power tools should be provided by contractors. What's the next item that becomes a trend for employees to provide?


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## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

There is always the option of quitting and going to work for somebody who does not require that you provide power tools.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

MisterCMK said:


> There is always the option of quitting and going to work for somebody who does not require that you provide power tools.


This company has most of the contracts going on in the city for this year. I'd be a fool to leave now.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Was a hacksaw on that list? You can cut pencil rod and all thread with a hacksaw too, you know. Heck, I've cut more than my fair share of RMC and Kindorf with a hacksaw.


Yea, I use my own hacksaw, which I might also replace.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I agree with Marc power tools should be provided by contractors. What's the next item that becomes a trend for employees to provide?


Some guys want to provide their own things, regardless of what the contractor provides. I was always like that. I just got the consumables and repairs on the contractor's dime. I've had guys working for me like that too. 

That said, I find a trend in my area that most contractors want you to at least have your own cordless, and quite a few require the electrician to have his own sawzall. Probably not a huge deal, like Brian said, because you can always use them at home when you get a better job.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> Yea, I use my own hacksaw, which I might also replace.


Spend a couple dollars and get a high tension hacksaw frame. You will not regret it. Milwaukee and Ideal both make excellent high tension hacksaw frames.


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## Electric Bill (Nov 13, 2009)

All of my guys have always provided there own Hand tools, Meters, Cordless Drill, any other little special power tools they want. I provide all the heavy duty tools, ladders, benders, hammer drills, angle drills, ect. No one has ever complained. :thumbsup:

If you don't want to buy the needed tools, I'm sure you are welcome to go somewhere else to work.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> This company has most of the contracts going on in the city for this year. I'd be a fool to leave now.


Well, like it or not, it sounds like you're shopping for your own cordless drill now. Just double check with the boss to make sure he doesn't have that purchase planned himself. If he's a small operator, he might just be making sure you're going to stick around before he springs for a bunch of new power tools. If he does, expect a man with more seniority will get the new tools, and you'll get hand me downs. That's sorta how it works.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Spend a couple dollars and get a high tension hacksaw frame. You will not regret it. Milwaukee and Ideal both make excellent high tension hacksaw frames.


I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Well, like it or not, it sounds like you're shopping for your own cordless drill now. Just double check with the boss to make sure he doesn't have that purchase planned himself. If he's a small operator, he might just be making sure you're going to stick around before he springs for a bunch of new power tools. If he does, expect a man with more seniority will get the new tools, and you'll get hand me downs. That's sorta how it works.


My boss seems pretty reasonable. I just think it would be strange to ask for these things so early in the game. The other apprentices find the lack of tools annoying, but they don't complain.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


Yeah, I have a tough time with that too, so that's why I got a Benfield sawbox to hold the flex while I use the hacksaw. It's like trying to cut a limp noodle without the Benfield sawbox.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> My boss seems pretty reasonable. I just think it would be strange to ask for these things so early in the game. The other apprentices find the lack of tools annoying, but they don't complain.


Okay, if other guys who have been there longer than you are sharing the few company tools also, that's you cue to buy your own cordless. It would be one way to demonstrate your commitment to the job and stand out from the others.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Show up with one of these to cut Kindorf:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I can see this thread degrading into a union v. merit-shop debate over what tools should be provided.:whistling2:


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## Wibber (Feb 3, 2010)

The attitude seems to be that supplied power tools aren't respected. When guys supply their own - they are respected.

It's fed off of desperation in an open shop. If you think your position is secure without supplying power tools - don't. But supplying power tools, and tools in general, is the easiest way to avoid the pink slip line up.


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## Electric Bill (Nov 13, 2009)

Look at it from a employeer's perspective. There are alot of people looking for work right now. 2 people equally qualified apply for the same position. One has all the tools they need, the second expects you to provide everything. Who are you going to hire. Why would you buy all of they're tools for them, then pay them the going pay rate. Now you could hire the applicant with no tools, and pay them less, then they would complain about that.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

I have no problem supplying my own drill, I would actually like it better. This would allow me to have the type and size of drill that I prefer, it would also guarantee that I have a drill instead of chasing it down from someone else when there aren't enough. I've heard some speculation that our local was thinking about implementing a cordless drill to the tool list, but I doubt it would happen.

My only issue is batteries mixed with large jobsites. Batteries are expensive, if everyone has to supply their own drill and batteries, I could see them getting stolen. I would worry every time I left my batteries charging somewhere.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Tools can come by pretty cheap these days.

I started the game early with my Bosch baby drill 2 years ago, (10.8 volt). I still use it 'til this day, well worth the 150 dollars I spent on it. There is also ryobi and craftsman tools, they're cheap and well enough to get you started.

Even if I was Union I'd still want to carry my own power tool set. I do think it's a little much to expect a first year apprentice to be carrying an adequate cordless system, but if you expect to be in the construction industry for a while it's a good investment.


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## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> This company has most of the contracts going on in the city for this year. I'd be a fool to leave now.


So buck up and buy the drill. It sounds like it is better than the alternative.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Show up with one of these to cut Kindorf:


Wow. I like it! :thumbsup:


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

When I started out I used to work for a small resi/light commercial open shop and everyone had to have their own cordless. This didn't bother me, I _wanted_ to own my own drill. Sawzall, hammer drill, etc was all provided by the contractor.

Today my parents bought a Porter Cable 18v nicad drill at Canadian Tire as a birthday present for my brother in law for $120 on sale, normally $150. It's a great drill and the price is right. I paid $150 for my 18v Bosch about a year ago. It might be a bit steep if you're just starting out but the neon green Ryobi autoshift 18v drills are priced pretty cheap and they get great reviews. My advice would be to get a good drill once and not have to replace it because buying cheap crap is more expensive in the long term. Believe me I have made this mistake. Since you are going to be making other work related purchases like clothes and more tools, etc buying a drill twice is something you don't could do without.

Plus, owning a drill is just something that is useful whether it's at work or at home.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Show up with one of these to cut Kindorf:


And The Professor could use one to open coconuts, too.:laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> My only issue is batteries mixed with large jobsites. Batteries are expensive, if everyone has to supply their own drill and batteries, I could see them getting stolen. I would worry every time I left my batteries charging somewhere.


Spray paint comes in every color of the rainbow. Paint your batteries neon pink, and no one would dare take your battery. :laughing: Plus, it keeps honest mistakes from happening. I accidentally took a mason's battery and charger one day when I was cleaning up. I actually drove it to his house (it was also his shop) when I realized what I had done. I didn't want him thinking I was a thief.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Buy a Ryobi.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> When I started out I used to work for a small resi/light commercial open shop and everyone had to have their own cordless. This didn't bother me, I _wanted_ to own my own drill. Sawzall, hammer drill, etc was all provided by the contractor.
> 
> Today my parents bought a Porter Cable 18v nicad drill at Canadian Tire as a birthday present for my brother in law for $120 on sale, normally $150. It's a great drill and the price is right. I paid $150 for my 18v Bosch about a year ago. It might be a bit steep if you're just starting out but the neon green Ryobi autoshift 18v drills are priced pretty cheap and they get great reviews. My advice would be to get a good drill once and not have to replace it because buying cheap crap is more expensive in the long term. Believe me I have made this mistake. Since you are going to be making other work related purchases like clothes and more tools, etc buying a drill twice is something you don't could do without.
> 
> Plus, owning a drill is just something that is useful whether it's at work or at home.


Wanna get married?:laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Buy a Ryobi.


That's what I would do. That stuff is cheap and it's a perfect starter kit.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Tools can come by pretty cheap these days.
> 
> I started the game early with my Bosch baby drill 2 years ago, (10.8 volt). I still use it 'til this day, well worth the 150 dollars I spent on it. There is also ryobi and craftsman tools, they're cheap and well enough to get you started.
> 
> Even if I was Union I'd still want to carry my own power tool set. I do think it's a little much to expect a first year apprentice to be carrying an adequate cordless system, but if you expect to be in the construction industry for a while it's a good investment.


 
I love my 10.8! They just came out with a 10.8/ 12volt max one. Best lil drill Ive ever owned.


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## CollinTaylor (Mar 6, 2010)

I provide all power tools, ladder, cords, and accessories....as well as company trucks. I do expect any electrician or apprentice to have his own cordless drill (dewalt/makita, etc), but I do have spares in case they break theirs and it goes in for repairs. Sometimes I will even buy the cordless for the "new guy", if he can't afford it....or I work deals out with the guys where I will buy it and take payments back on paydays....some guys prefer to use thier own power tools, but if it breaks I will not replace it or repair it, as they could have used my tools.....


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

electricnewf said:


> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


I usually carry tools and materials in a 5 gallon bucket. I cut two "V" shaped notches in the rim of the bucket to use to stabilize conduit, flex or other things I need to cut with a hacksaw.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CollinTaylor said:


> I provide all power tools, ladder, cords, and accessories....as well as company trucks. I do expect any electrician or apprentice to have his own cordless drill (dewalt/makita, etc), but I do have spares in case they break theirs and it goes in for repairs. Sometimes I will even buy the cordless for the "new guy", if he can't afford it....or I work deals out with the guys where I will buy it and take payments back on paydays....some guys prefer to use thier own power tools, but if it breaks I will not replace it or repair it, as they could have used my tools.....


That makes no sense. You expect them to have their own, but if they break, you won't fix them because they could have used yours. Sounds contradictory. The way I see it, if you're expecting a guy to use his own power tool, the least you can do is have it serviced.


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## CollinTaylor (Mar 6, 2010)

I dont expect it....I offer everyone full use of all power tools....if they choose not to, thats on them....why should I be responsible to fix the tools they use on my jobs, which could be used at home, side jobs, by friends....etc....why would I fix a tool of his that may have been broken somehweres else or by someone else, when i have tools to use.....that are offered to them 100%??


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## CollinTaylor (Mar 6, 2010)

I dont expect for them to use their own tools..in fact, i discourage it........I offer everyone full use of all company power tools....if they choose not to, thats on them....why should I be responsible to fix the tools they use on my jobs, which could be used at home, side jobs, by friends....etc....why would I fix a tool of his that may have been broken somewheres else or by someone else, when i have tools to use.....that are offered to them 100% of the time?? Its their problem if they break


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

CollinTaylor said:


> I dont expect for them to use their own tools..in fact, i discourage it........I offer everyone full use of all company power tools...


 This started back when you said:



CollinTaylor said:


> I do expect any electrician or apprentice to have his own cordless drill (dewalt/makita, etc), but I do have spares in case they break theirs and it goes in for repairs.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

when i started in construction all we did was show up and tools were furnished by my employeer,,,then a leadman pointed out to me that tools were the least of what of i should be thinking about...am i the right man for the job and is this the right job for this man....then he pointed at his gang box and said come check out my toys.:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> T*his company has most of the contracts going on in the city for this year. I'd be a fool to leave now*.


I think you answered your own question


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Plenty of good advice, and I am sure you have figured out what to do. I used to work other jobs where they supplied power tools of some sort, but I often provided m own anyway. One of those guys like Marc talked about. 

Agree completely with Brian, as some of my former "work" drills are at home now, and still get regular workouts.

I also agree with forgery, that I personally would gladly let the contrators require a cordless drill if I could never have to walk all over a site for a drill, or have an argument about using one. But, that ship will not sail for some years yet I am sure.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

s.kelly said:


> I also agree with forgery, that I personally would gladly let the contrators require a cordless drill if I could never have to walk all over a site for a drill, or have an argument about using one. But, that ship will not sail for some years yet I am sure.


Don't you love seeing the guys crowd the gang box to get the good drill first thing in the morning? It's like kids running to an ice cream truck :thumbup:


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

What do you recommend for a good drill? I'm looking for something thats not too expensive, and I'll be happy if I could get a few years out of it. I'm doing commercial work right now, drilling through steel beams and such. There's a home depot in my area, but I kinda have a grudge against them because I used to work there :laughing:


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## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

You can get a Ryobi 18v combo kit for $100 at HD it has 2 batteries,charger and a cordless saw. Hell if you want go to harbor freight and get a throw away drill for $30 :laughing:

In my opinion rookie or not if you dont have a cordless drill ummmm what are you doing in the trades? I had a cordless drill i bought for home projects as a teenager before even thinking of becoming an electrician.

It's like a basketball player coming to practice in bobos when the rest of the team is wearing $100+ nikes. Players just make the team but you know they are droppin the $100+ for the right kicks. 

You just made the team don't be a bobo get a drill:laughing:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> What do you recommend for a good drill? I'm looking for something thats not too expensive, and I'll be happy if I could get a few years out of it. I'm doing commercial work right now, drilling through steel beams and such. There's a home depot in my area, but I kinda have a grudge against them because I used to work there :laughing:


I currently have all Dewalt 18V tools.

When I need a new drill, I will be buying the Makita 18-Volt LXT Lithium-Ion. It's under $300, kinda expensive, but an excellent drill.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

I have a Black and Decker 12V but it won't last for what I'm going to put it through. But I could try it all the same. The performance isn't that great though, and I don't think the battery will hold up for drilling through layers of steel.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

pawirenut said:


> In my opinion rookie or not if you dont have a cordless drill ummmm what are you doing in the trades?


I didn't buy my own drill until at least my 4th year in the trade. I only bought it to use for sidework.


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## CollinTaylor (Mar 6, 2010)

You guys are all crazy....I supply all POWER tools...not battery operated cordless drills....if they want to use their own POWER drills/saws, thats on them....I WILL NOT pay for repairs that need to be made to an employee using their own POWER tools....since I have trucks full of them, and are offered to them....if they break their tool its not my fault, as they have been supplied with POWER tools already....

Now, I expect them to have cordless drill, such as a makita or dewalt.....if that breaks, I will not replace them or get them fixed.....same as their own POWER tools....how do I know where they have been used other than my jobs, and who knows what condition they were in to begin with....I will however, loan them my cordless tools until they get theirs back.....why should i be responsible for their POWER (not cordless for you idiots that dont know the difference) tools, if they are offered mine, which if broken will be repaired, and another will be issued from my backup stock in the shop......

What is so hard to understand about that? Obviously you all are mostly electricians and not the contractor.....how do I know what shape your toool is in, or how good it works or doesnt work, before you claim It was broken on MY job (not your side job or at home), and expect me to fix it....its not gonna happen, guys......get real


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## CollinTaylor (Mar 6, 2010)

*I totally agree!!*



pawirenut said:


> You can get a Ryobi 18v combo kit for $100 at HD it has 2 batteries,charger and a cordless saw. Hell if you want go to harbor freight and get a throw away drill for $30 :laughing:
> 
> In my opinion rookie or not if you dont have a cordless drill ummmm what are you doing in the trades? I had a cordless drill i bought for home projects as a teenager before even thinking of becoming an electrician.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this statement!


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

For me I like having a cordless with a hammer drill on it.. I always seem to need running some emt on cider block walls. While your at it you can usually find some sort of drill/sawzall kit for about $300 at the box stores.. but you might still have time to go to the Milwaukee or dewalt or whatever brand shop and buy last years model at a lower price. Might also find a decent price on a refurbished.

As for me I had 3 drills before I got in the trade.. all craftsmen and all of them burned up fast. When I got into the trade I got a Rigid 24v and it lasted 3 years.. it still works, but I use a Milwaukee now.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

CollinTaylor said:


> POWER (not cordless for you idiots that dont know the difference)


That's extremely rude. You are lucky that there isn't an "Unthank" option here.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

tim123 said:


> For me I like having a cordless with a hammer drill on it.. I always seem to need running some emt on cider block walls.


I've always heard bad things about using the hammerdrill function of a cordless drill. I've heard that it's basically just a novelty and using it much will damage the drill.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

For various reasons, I have 3 brands of cordless at home, and have used several provided by contractors.

Most of mine are several years old, and used fairly hard. My favorite has been Makita, by far. I also like Dewalt, Milwaukee,and Hilti,though for what they are they are way overpriced.

I would personally recommend the extra money for these "hi line" tools. If it lasts,it might end up at home. And they will last better.

That being said, if money is really tight, I have a ryobi set,that in my experience is just fine for around the house, but to me, not commercial. Though sometimes, even with a 3rd battery I end up waiting if I did not plan far enough ahead. It is mostly the recip. I use from the kit. The drill is about the same though, ok power, battery life not as good, weight not as good. 

My makitas are 6 or 8 yrs old, been used commercially, and only 12 volt, but the drill and the impact still run strong.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> What do you recommend for a good drill? I'm looking for something thats not too expensive, and I'll be happy if I could get a few years out of it. I'm doing commercial work right now, drilling through steel beams and such. There's a home depot in my area, but I kinda have a grudge against them because I used to work there :laughing:


Best all around deal is probably this Porter Cable hammer drill

$150 at Rona


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Don't you love seeing the guys crowd the gang box to get the good drill first thing in the morning? It's like kids running to an ice cream truck :thumbup:


Got that right. You would think the contractors would figure out that at a minimum, there should be a cordless drill at least for each JW, and a few others for apprentices and "c" classifications. A JW costs too much to have them waiting on drill. For that matter, so does an apprentice as cheap as cordless has gotten.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Forgery said:


> I've always heard bad things about using the hammerdrill function of a cordless drill. I've heard that it's basically just a novelty and using it much will damage the drill.


 I have burnt up the clutches on a few drills trying to work the hammerdrill too hard. 

I only use it for just a few holes, anything more than that and I'm getting the hilti.

One thing I have found to save your hamerdrill is drill a small pilot hole first. It seems like a no brainer but alot of guys don't do this.


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

I haven't had it damage a drill yet, but I only use it for brick work.. seen guys go through clutches faster than anything. It doesn't do well with concrete, but I really only use it for brick work, strapping conduit/mc ect.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Hell, get your cordless drills at Costco......I love their return policy. Beat it to rat-****, and return it for a new one.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Electric Bill said:


> Look at it from a employeer's perspective. There are alot of people looking for work right now. 2 people equally qualified apply for the same position. One has all the tools they need, the second expects you to provide everything. Who are you going to hire. Why would you buy all of they're tools for them, then pay them the going pay rate. Now you could hire the applicant with no tools, and pay them less, then they would complain about that.


Now you're assuming hiring the the "going rate guy" because he includes tools and those without tools get less... If there's 2 rates, they're not applying for the same position.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> I have no problem supplying my own drill, I would actually like it better. This would allow me to have the type and size of drill that I prefer, it would also guarantee that I have a drill instead of chasing it down from someone else when there aren't enough. I've heard some speculation that our local was thinking about implementing a cordless drill to the tool list, but I doubt it would happen.
> 
> My only issue is batteries mixed with large jobsites. Batteries are expensive, if everyone has to supply their own drill and batteries, I could see them getting stolen. I would worry every time I left my batteries charging somewhere.


From reading these posts it sounds like whether the contractors are supplying tools or not they're crappy, aren't enough to go around, or if the employees are supplying powertools, the jobsites are rife with wormy lowlife people who steal powertools and even the personal tools of your fellow tradesmen aren't off-limits.

Don't you people have lockable gangboxes?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Plus, owning a drill is just something that is useful whether it's at work or at home.


You're justifying the contractor shirking his responsibility by pointing out the good in what is really a bad thing. How is he gonna use the drill at home when it's at work, unless you expect him to hump batteries, chargers and powertools every day to and from work?

Some people, in fact I'd say most people have no need for a sawzall or a hammerdrill at home.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

We make the employees supply everything, ladders, trucks, smart benders, wire feeders. Of course we are evil merit shop contractors and that is how we roll, oh yeah we steal their pay as well.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Don't you people have lockable gangboxes?


We do, but we do not allow personal tools to be stored in them, and this time I am not joking.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

electricnewf said:


> What do you recommend for a good drill? I'm looking for something thats not too expensive, and I'll be happy if I could get a few years out of it. I'm doing commercial work right now, drilling through steel beams and such. There's a home depot in my area, but I kinda have a grudge against them because I used to work there :laughing:


Stick to a common brand that uses the newer lithium-ion battery, that is compatible with the rest of their line of tools. You miight want to consider one that can also hammerdrill should the need arise. I have a feling you're gonna be asked to supply sawzalls and grinders next... :blink:

I recommend you do NOT have the nicest drill on the site.
I recommend you (as much as this might hurt) spraypaint the crap out of it, the batteries and the charger so it doesn't look brandy-new. Make it real ugly.
I recommend you etch or carve or gouge your name (not social security number) into every piece of the kit you buy. 
I recommend you buy a large metal toolbox with lots of space, a chain and 2 locks. Drill a hole in the side for the cord, and recharge your batteries in there, chained to a column, so it can't get stolen. 
My guess is your contractor doesn't supply gangboxes either...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> We do, but we do not allow personal tools to be stored in them, and this time I am not joking.


So where do you keep your tools?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> We make the employees supply everything, ladders, trucks, smart benders, wire feeders. Of course we are evil merit shop contractors and that is how we roll, oh yeah we steal their pay as well.:thumbsup:


I know, and those are your GOOD points. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So where do you keep your tools?



Get this, and I know this will be tough for you ........ _I take personal responsibility for my own tools._ I kept them with me. Bring them into the building in the AM carry them out in the PM.

Besides we might be re-assigned to another site so we better have our tools with us.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The only thing I think employees should provide are hand tools and a cordless drill. Everything else the contractor. I keep telling my helper that he doesnt need to lug around his Dewalt 5 piece cordless set but he still brings it in.....I have four drills on my truck right now....


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Get this, and I know this will be tough for you ........ _I take personal responsibility for my own tools._ I kept them with me. Bring them into the building in the AM carry them out in the PM.
> 
> Besides we might be re-assigned to another site so we better have our tools with us.


That would get old fast, I've worked places that you need a tool pass signed by the foreman to remove any tool from the site. 100 electricians carrying tools in and out every day for two years would be sight. Security would flip out and the foreman would have a full time job with the passes.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

A lot of this depends on what type of work you are doing.

Are we talking about service work in which you work out of your van and only spend hours or (very rarely) a day or two at this job?

Are we talking residential new construction in which you are on a small job site with only a couple other guys?

Or are we talking about a large commercial job site in which you are one of 30 electrician and there are 10-40 of every other trade too?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Get this, and I know this will be tough for you ........ _I take personal responsibility for my own tools._ I kept them with me. Bring them into the building in the AM carry them out in the PM.
> 
> Besides we might be re-assigned to another site so we better have our tools with us.


So they go home with you every night... all of your tools.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

drsparky said:


> That would get old fast, I've worked places that you need a tool pass signed by the foreman to remove any tool from the site. 100 electricians carrying tools in and out every day for two years would be sight. Security would flip out and the foreman would have a full time job with the passes.


Sounds like you had been spoiled. :laughing:

Different strokes for different places. 

I mentioned that the companies I work for do not allow the storage of personal tools in company gang boxes.

LGLS asked what we do with out tools and I told him.

When I was assigned to a maintenance gig at a factory for two years my tools stayed on site.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So they go home with you every night... all of your tools.


That's pretty crazy. What happens with guys who take the bus or train?

What's so hard about the contractor providing a $300 gang box for the men's tools?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So they go home with you every night... all of your tools.


Yes, but we are only _required_ to have basic tools so it is no big deal. 




Forgery said:


> That's pretty crazy. What happens with guys who take the bus or train?


Very few of our guys travel by bus or train but if they did they would carry their tools.



> What's so hard about the contractor providing a $300 gang box for the men's tools?


Absolutely nothing, we have plenty of gang boxes, the issue is liability.

Gang box gets broken into, suddenly everyone on the job say they left their tools in that box and it just so happens each person had just bought brand new gold plated do-hickeys and wants the EC to replace them all.

Also as I mentioned we may get re-assigned to new projects at anytime. Our work day stops at 3:30 but we might get a call at 5:30 telling us we are going to a different site in the morning.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> That's pretty crazy. What happens with guys who take the bus or train?
> 
> What's so hard about the contractor providing a $300 gang box for the men's tools?


The $300 gang box. :laughing:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Absolutely nothing, we have plenty of gang boxes, the issue is liability.
> 
> Gang box gets broken into, suddenly everyone on the job say they left their tools in that box and it just so happens each person had just bought brand new gold plated do-hickeys and wants the EC to replace them all.


 That's why there should be a tool list and an insurance policy with maximum payout which will cover that tool list with reasonable quality tools (nothing gold plated!). It's as easy as that.


> Also as I mentioned we may get re-assigned to new projects at anytime. Our work day stops at 3:30 but we might get a call at 5:30 telling us we are going to a different site in the morning.


 That's an issue that the contractor needs to sort out. What's the worst thing that happens, the contractor looses an hour worth of time while you pickup your tools from the other jobsite in the morning? If this is happening more than once or twice a year, then the contractor should make provisions.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The $300 gang box. :laughing:


A small 2'X2'X4' gangbox could hold at least 10-12 guy's handtools.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> A small 2'X2'X4' gangbox could hold at least 10-12 guy's handtools.


It seems as long as a contractor has a cheaper route to take, take it he will and the employees be damned.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Forgery said:


> That's why there should be a tool list and an insurance policy with maximum payout which will cover that tool list with reasonable quality tools (nothing gold plated!). It's as easy as that.


Or we just have the guys take care of their own tools. It is also as easy as that. 

I am not saying that is what you should do I am only saying how we do it and it works for us.

There is no right or wrong answer. 





> That's an issue that the contractor needs to sort out. What's the worst thing that happens, the contractor looses an hour worth of time while you pickup your tools from the other jobsite in the morning? If this is happening more than once or twice a year, then the contractor should make provisions.


We have made provisions, keep your own tools with you, it is very simple. 

I had no idea that guys that carry their tools 8 hours a day suddenly cannot carry them 2 minutes to their car/truck when they are off the clock.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

There is no way on earth I would store my tools on site.

They go home with me. Not only for the reasons Bob stated, but also I don't want my tools stored with everyone else's. I don't want my things borrowed if I don't make it in one day.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It seems as long as a contractor has a cheaper route to take, take it he will and the employees be damned.


Yeah, asking employees to carry their own tools is a tremendous hardship and the owners of the company should be keel hauled for making them do that.:laughing:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I had no idea that guys that carry their tools 8 hours a day suddenly cannot carry them 2 minutes to their car/truck when they are off the clock.


I've never carried tools for 8 hours, I set them down in the area I am working. After a long day of working the last thing I want to do is carry 50 lbs. of tools on a mile journey to my car, or on a bus or train in which I would become a target for thieves. 

And this thread is about cordless drills, as I said earlier, I am fine with the contractor requiring workers to bring their own, but that's just another 15lbs. to carry in and out everyday.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> ................Also as I mentioned we may get re-assigned to new projects at anytime. Our work day stops at 3:30 but we might get a call at 5:30 telling us we are going to a different site in the morning.


 
Or you may wake up the next morning with a better job offer elsewhere. :whistling2:.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I don't want my tools stored with everyone else's. I don't want my things borrowed if I don't make it in one day.


I worry about that too. Whenever I am on a big site with coworkers that I don't know and trust, I always switch to a metal toolbox with a lock.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Or you may wake up the next morning with a better job offer elsewhere. :whistling2:.


True enough.

I also have seen an EC suddenly go out of business and some of the guys that had personal tools in company boxes had to wait quite a while to get their tools back until after some of the dust settled.


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## oramac406 (Feb 7, 2010)

Just use a screwdriver for everything and they probably will buy you a drill. Heck, the pictures for advertisement in EC&M magazine show guys installing remodel boxes etc. to wood studs with a screwdriver... I think that is funny


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I don't leave my tools on site either. Like Bob said people get shifted from job to job. 
What happens when we get a service call at 2 in the morning and all your tools are locked up in a gangbox in a locked building? 
Contractors be damned for taking service calls after hours and paying thier guys double time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> ............I also have seen an EC suddenly go out of business and some of the guys that had personal tools in company boxes had to wait quite a while to get their tools back until after some of the dust settled.


 I've seen that happen as well. 

Guys show up at the shop Monday morning. Lights off, locked up. No one answers any of the pnone calls,,,, office, the boss' house, his cell phone. By 9:30, they give up and go home. Some guys never got their tools back.

And to kick 'em in the nads, they find out they didn't have insurance the past few months, no money had been set aside for paying the taxes that were taken out of their checks.............

I'm sure LGLS is gonna have a field day with this post.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

In my experience working open shop,the better contractors provide ALL power tools.That being said I also worked for open shops that wanted you to have your own cordless,I find it annoying.A first year apprentice is making what?,9,10 bucks per hour.A good cordless is a couple hundred$$.That's a week's pay check.

If your stuck for work.Suck it up and buy the drill save your receipt for tax time.In the mean time start looking for a better outfit to work for.A good contractor WILL provide everything you need outside of hand tools and a basic meter,stuff you should have anyway.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Simple question... what ever happened to personal responsibility? Why is the contractor specially obligated to provide each and every thing the employee wants or needs? 

Beyond the things required by state law (like workman's comp), federal law (like your wages), OSHA (like toilet facilities), and any agreements you made when you were hired (like medical insurances), why do we want the contractor to provide more than that? Actually, I know why guys would WANT that, but why do you feel the contractor is specially obligated to provide extra things?

A responsible contractor, (indeed, a contractor who wants to remain in business), will provide the heavy tools and a good bit else. If there's guys willing to work who do things like provide their own cordless and are willing to carry their tools in and out every day (God forbid), what's the big deal? Nobody's forcing you or I to work like that, but if there's guys willing to work under those preconditions, big frikkin deal. 

How can it be "taking advantage" of someone, if it's perfectly legal? I think some people need to get out into the real world. The real world is a place where if we don't like a perfectly legal company policy, we suck it up and comply or get a job somewhere else.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Simple question... what ever happened to personal responsibility? Why is the contractor specially obligated to provide each and every thing the employee wants or needs? ..........


 
I have no doubt that there are some who feel their employer should provide everything. Everything.

You want me to drive to work? Fine, gimme a van or truck. Oh, and I'll need a driver's license and insurance. And a gas card.

I can't go to work naked....... you need to give me clothes. I also wear glasses, so since I'm working for you and need to wear them, you have to provide me with prescription safety glasses. (Photogray, please!)

You want me to work? Fine, provide me with meals because it's calories I gotta burn to do the job, so you should provide those calories.

OK, it's break time. Since I smoke and this is my scheduled break, where's my cancer sticks you need to supply me? Oh, got a light?

You're only gonna pay me for 8 hours a day? Where do you expect me to go after quitting time? Home? Fine.... provide me with a home to go to.

Now, I got 2 weeks vacation coming up. Where's my airline tickets and hotel confimation number? And don't get me no stinking compact rental car.... I want a Grand Marquis or a Crown Vic.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

electricnewf said:


> I started working for an open shop on Monday and spare for a few ladders does not provide any power tools. I'm working with two 3rd year apprentices and a 4th year and they have their own power tools. It's frustrating when I'm asked to do something that requires using a drill but can't because they are in use by their owners. I was considering buying a drill but as a first year I don't think I need to go through the expense of buying power tools. What is your take on this, and if it would benefit me do you think I should buy one?


Are you working with a Journeyman at all?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I guess some people just don't believe there should be standards. That the only way to success is "anything goes..." :thumbsup:

And then they wonder why there are unions. :jester:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I guess some people just don't believe there should be standards. That the only way to success is "anything goes..." :thumbsup:
> 
> And then they wonder why there are unions. :jester:


I agree with this. I'm probably naive, but I think unions are good for the working man. There are alot of non-union contractors that abuse their employees. I think your views on alot of stuff is really radical though.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I agree with this. I'm probably naive, but I think unions are good for the working man. There are alot of non-union contractors that abuse their employees. I think your views on alot of stuff is really radical though.


I'm not sure what you consider "abuse", but if it's a legal practice, it's not abuse. I've been on a good many jobsites, and I've yet to observe any workman with a ball and chain. It's not any contractor's obligation to make the jobsite a fun place to be, nor is it their obligation to make sure that all your human needs are met. The good one's do, but that's their choice.

Personal responsibility for your own happiness, is what I'm talking about. If you get an undercooked steak in a restaurant, you have a few choices. Eat is anyhow (deal with your situation), send it back to the kitchen to be recooked (have a talk with the boss), or never eat there again (get a new job).


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I agree with this. I'm probably naive, but I think unions are good for the working man. There are alot of non-union contractors that abuse their employees. I think your views on alot of stuff is really radical though.


Well, if you ask for 200% and end up with 50%, I can live with that, so, go for the gold I always say... :thumbup:

I have issues with all these merit contractors here claiming they're not like that, they are the exception... (defacto admitting what I say nonunion shops are really like is true, see the apprentices and drills and tools threads) and that unions aren't needed in their situation yet... if they're paying so much and sticking to ratios why wouldn't they be union? (Answer: because they're cheating somehow, someway, and won't admit to what...)


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I agree with Bob and John.
I took my tools home with me. The company had plenty of job boxes, but the only items covered for loss were the companies. Plenty of guys left their stuff inthem ,at their own risk. This was explained to every new person on day 1.
The companies I worked for provided all power tools ( as they should).
I was required to provide hand tools only. I've seen it were a guy was not able to make it to work for a day or two and his stuff left there for who ever to "borrow" from.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> What happens when we get a service call at 2 in the morning


 You should have a contractor owned service van in your driveway with extra hand tools in it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> You should have a contractor owned service van in your driveway with extra hand tools in it.


I suppose that's one option. Either buy twice as many tools, or take your tools home every day. I'm okay with that. 

The guy getting called first for a service call will necessarily have a company truck at home. In the case of a major blowup, where a lot more hands are needed, it not unusual for at least some of the guys to have to run to the shop to get a company truck or drive to the jobsite in their own vehicle.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I have no doubt that there are some who feel their employer should provide everything. Everything.


 Yes, I feel that way, but I am fine with that extra cost coming out of my pay. I would consider this a benefit and part of the package.

It's easier and cheaper for the contractor to drop a gangbox and get a policy to cover our handtools than for each worker to do it individually. That extra cost is negotiated into the workers package at barganing time. 

It's the same as medical insurance, it's better to have the contractor get it for all the workers than it is for them to put that money in the check and have each worker buy their own.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> It's easier and cheaper for the contractor to drop a gangbox and get a policy to cover our handtools than for each worker to do it individually. That extra cost is negotiated into the workers package at barganing time.


I actually tried to buy this type of insurance, to cover employee owned tools in gangboxes and in vans, but could not find it for purchase from any insurance provider. My regular insurance man actually advised me, in the event of any future claim, to just say they were all my tools.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I actually tried to buy this type of insurance, to cover employee owned tools in gangboxes and in vans, but could not find it for purchase from any insurance provider. My regular insurance man actually advised me, in the event of any future claim, to just say they were all my tools.


 Really? That's odd. Tool coverage is mandated in most IBEW locals AFAIK. I wonder how they do it.

My first year as an apprentice I had $700 worth of new tools stolen off a job. The local only stipulated that they cover up to $500, but the contractor was nice and split the difference and gave me $600.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> Really? That's odd. Tool coverage is mandated in most IBEW locals AFAIK. I wonder how they do it.
> 
> My first year as an apprentice I had $700 worth of new tools stolen off a job. The local only stipulated that they cover up to $500, but the contractor was nice and split the difference and gave me $600.


They might have some sort of self-coverage plan. I tried with all the major guys in my town, and came up empty. I'd be curious to learn of an underwriter who will write something like this, and what this type of insurance is called, in particular.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I would say most shops provide corded power tools. IMO the reason is it's been that way since corded power tools were common on the job site. Just a guess maybe this was the 1950s. What was it like for the tradesman then? There was a strong demand for blue collar workers. A man could earn a fair living and support his stay at home wife and children. With a minimal out of pocket expense for the employee to stay employed, basic hand tools and work cloths.

Cordless drills were a byproduct of NASA programs from the late 1960s. When cordless tools came out in the 1980s & 1990s they were weak. Many were 7.2-12v. I don't think they had hammer drills. Other cordless tools were limited to basic items like a flashlight. Somewhere in the early 2000s the tools became much more useful because they were more powerful, faster charging, longer run time, and bigger selection of tools. Ability to drill concrete anchor holes, sawsalls, and later impact drivers.

These cordless tools went from almost a novelty to to something that needed many times to get tings done at an acceptable rate. The advantages benefit both the worker and employer. Quicker set up and clean up time. Ability to work all over a job sit without having to set up again. Safer with no cords to trip on or shock hazard. Many times lighter, so the employee has more energy and less chance of strain. And of coarse cordless impacts seem to be perfect power, speed, weight, for screwing.

If it benefits the employer so much why do so many not provide them? I would say it's a sign of the times. More is expected of the worker and less is provided. Why pay a reasonable wage when you can find workers at a little over fast food pay? Why provide any paid time off when so many would be happy just to work? The list gos on with benefits that many used to have.

I have noticed some people rely on them more than needed. An electrician should be able to cut smaller sticks of conduit with a hack saw. You can many times put most types of short screws in/out by hand, instead some will waist time getting there cordless out.

My problem with companies not providing cordless tools is many times the life is limited with daily use to maybe 2 years before you start having failures or theft. I would also say companies that don't provide the cordless also don't provide other items The worker is sometimes expected to buy hole saws, unibits, steel drill bit sets, spade bits, apexes, phillips bits, auger bits, hack saw blades, sawsall blades. All those items are consumables used on on a job. Even some places want the worker to provide a knock out set, fish tape, testers, etc. What is the employer providing? A jobsite and ladder? I'm not asking for a free lunch, just something that gets used up on the job provided, just like tape, screws, or wire nuts.

To be honest I would have no problem providing most everything under the sun if the pay reflected it. I would say more often that's not the case. I know of one EC that puts a listing in many cities. Then they hire a poor SOB with clean truck, tools, equipment, and inventory. The company takes job leads and sends the electrician to go sell the job. Nothing is paid for. Pay is $25/hr for billed hours only. All material is paid for by the electrician and what is invoiced is reimbursed on pay day. Most likely it's a 1099 job. 

Reading job ads may ads say must have benders, hand tools & cordless tools. OK but some even go as far as say you must have your own safety equipment in the ad.

I will say at least some companies when someone is hired have a list of required tools for apprentices and journeyman. While apprentices many times aren't required to have the more costly tools they end up begging the journeyman for theres. Apprentices have a greater chance of fubaring a tool. It is also aggravating if you have to chase down your own tool. Even if your not required to provide cordless tools there may be a good chance of loosing your job if you don't have them. Because you can't keep up without cordless.

I will say there are some good shops that if they don't provide the cordless they will help the employee somehow. Such as tool credits, tool gifts, or replacing an employees worn out tool weather it's a bit, cordless battery, or drill kit.

It's supply and demand. Companies love the large supply of workers and will take advantage of the situation. The whole mentality of you you like it go work somewhere else. Oh ya, not so much for jobs out there, and many of the shops have the same deal. In the end it's just lowering the standards of the trade. Over time the better quality people will find other carers and your left with unskilled installers struggling to pay their bills.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Forgery said:


> You should have a contractor owned service van in your driveway with extra hand tools in it.


 I do, but it is filled with my hand tools. I can't see buying another set of tools because I'm too lazy to pack my tool bag out at the end of the day.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

active1 said:


> It's supply and demand. Companies love the large supply of workers and will take advantage of the situation.


Yes, it is. Responsible business practices dictate that I make hay while the sun shines.



active1 said:


> whole mentality of you you like it go work somewhere else. Oh ya, not so much for jobs out there, and many of the shops have the same deal.


I am not responsible for the current job market conditions. I am responsible for company profits. 



active1 said:


> the end it's just lowering the standards of the trade.


Nope. Just righting the standards.



active1 said:


> time the better quality people will find other carers and your left with unskilled installers struggling to pay their bills.


There's no evidence of that.


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## FragElectric (Mar 2, 2010)

The last EC I worked for provided all corded power tools, benders, extension cords, ladders, safety equipment, consumables, etc. The one thing they didn't provide was cordless power tools as they were considered a luxury when the job could get done with what was provided. If the employee did provide his/her own cordless tool and it broke on the job the EC would either pay to have it repaired or provide 50% of the cost towards a new tool. I found this system to be fair to both employer and employee and will use the same system for my new company.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

FragElectric said:


> The last EC I worked for provided all corded power tools, benders, extension cords, ladders, safety equipment, consumables, etc. The one thing they didn't provide was cordless power tools as they were considered a luxury when the job could get done with what was provided. If the employee did provide his/her own cordless tool and it broke on the job the EC would either pay to have it repaired or provide 50% of the cost towards a new tool. I found this system to be fair to both employer and employee and will use the same system for my new company.


Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I do. That keeps me from buying a nice HILTI to replace a Ryobi.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Simple question... what ever happened to personal responsibility?


My guess is that in NYC and some parts of NJ personal responsibility became a meth head and died in an alley.

Now all that is left is 'hold my hand and provide for me'.


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## FragElectric (Mar 2, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I do. That keeps me from buying a nice HILTI to replace a Ryobi.



I know what you mean. I just bought a whole new HILTI cordless setup for my truck and it wasn't cheap.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

FragElectric said:


> I know what you mean. I just bought a whole new HILTI cordless setup for my truck and it wasn't cheap.


I changed to that partial reimbursement for a new tool that was toasted beyond repair when word got back to me that a guy was bragging about what a good deal he got on his Porter Cable sawzall at a yard sale, and I replaced it with a nicer one when it died. He should have kept his mouth shut. He screwed it up for everyone. He no longer works for me. He was using my stuff for side work, I found out. Supply house slips started not matching what he used on the jobs and what was left on his truck in a remarkable way. A charge at a supply house by him on a day he had taken off was what tipped me off to what was going on. Our agreement was that I'd keep his last bi-weekly paycheck or file charges. He let me keep the dough. I'm not sure if that made me whole or not, but it seemed reasonable. The SOB filed for unemployment, but he must have found another job, because he only collected for a few weeks.


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## FragElectric (Mar 2, 2010)

Heh. Sounds like one of the guys that worked for us. It seemed like he was using too much material on some of the jobs but it wasn't really enough to throw up any flags at first. Until one day the boss was going to visit a friend and one of his company trucks was out on a Sunday near where his friend lived. Turns out he was doing side work out of his company truck on weekends and thats where the material was going. The police also found a few company tools that he had told the boss broke down and needed to be replaced in that persons garage.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I changed to that partial reimbursement for a new tool that was toasted beyond repair when word got back to me that a guy was bragging about what a good deal he got on his Porter Cable sawzall at a yard sale, and I replaced it with a nicer one when it died. He should have kept his mouth shut. He screwed it up for everyone. He no longer works for me. He was using my stuff for side work, I found out. Supply house slips started not matching what he used on the jobs and what was left on his truck in a remarkable way. A charge at a supply house by him on a day he had taken off was what tipped me off to what was going on. Our agreement was that I'd keep his last bi-weekly paycheck or file charges. He let me keep the dough. I'm not sure if that made me whole or not, but it seemed reasonable. The SOB filed for unemployment, but he must have found another job, because he only collected for a few weeks.


What a sad world.

I wish I could work on a crew of fair, honest, hard working people.

A super crew of sorts.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> What a sad world.
> 
> I wish I could work on a crew of fair, honest, hard working people.
> 
> A super crew of sorts.


I think I have a couple guys like that. After that incident, I thought long and hard about starting a purchase order system. After more thought, I figured, "This is bull". I'd rather have people I can trust before adding another layer of administration and all the BS and time that goes with that. I'm not a very good babysitter. I more subscribe to the "slow to hire, quick to fire" management strategy.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I do, but it is filled with my hand tools. I can't see buying another set of tools because I'm too lazy to pack my tool bag out at the end of the day.


Show me an electrician at service level who doesn't have at least two sets of tools already :thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> Show me an electrician at service level who doesn't have at least two sets of tools already :thumbup:


I started that habit a long time ago. When I'm working on a rooftop unit, I've got one set for on the roof and another set for at the AHU. Working on a new circuit, I've got one set for in the electrical room, and another set for out in the office area.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> I started working for an open shop on Monday and spare for a few ladders does not provide any power tools. I'm working with two 3rd year apprentices and a 4th year and they have their own power tools. It's frustrating when I'm asked to do something that requires using a drill but can't because they are in use by their owners. I was considering buying a drill but as a first year I don't think I need to go through the expense of buying power tools. What is your take on this, and if it would benefit me do you think I should buy one?


Only a sub contractor supplies and is responsible to furnish powertools( holehawg,sawzall, punch kit, 1 9/16 hammerdrill, etc) In my apprentice days we used a scratch awl to punch the hole and then driving a flathead panhead screw by hand. Gal, EMT and pvc were all cut by hand. I have extra cordless's for helpers.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

electricnewf said:


> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


Tip: Hold your hacksaw backwards and then cut the LT flex. Or, if you are cutting a lot of it, turn the blade around so the teeth are facing in the wrong direction. Works great:thumbsup:


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I only wish that we had enough cordless drills to go around at work....still would not bring in my own power tools though/


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Spend a couple dollars and get a high tension hacksaw frame. You will not regret it. Milwaukee and Ideal both make excellent high tension hacksaw frames.


I checked my hacksaw (Craftsmen) and it doesn't say anything about being high tension. I assume that high tension hack saws just pull the blade tighter? That helps when cutting?

Also, I couldn't find a Milwaukee but Dewalt makes one. I normally hate cutting with a hacksaw so I could use any help I could get.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> I checked my hacksaw (Craftsmen) and it doesn't say anything about being high tension. I assume that high tension hack saws just pull the blade tighter? That helps when cutting?
> 
> Also, I couldn't find a Milwaukee but Dewalt makes one. I normally hate cutting with a hacksaw so I could use any help I could get.


Yeah, the high tension hacksaws normally have a pretty beefy frame to keep them from getting twisty. They normally also feature some sort of cam latch to tighten the blade rather than a wingnut. Getting that blade damn tight and dead straight is the key to the whole situation. Put the same blade in a yard sale hacksaw frame and you can't saw to save your ass. Move that blade over to a high tension frame, and it's like night and day the difference it makes .

In this picture, the top frame is a high tension frame, and the bottom three are ordinary hacksaw frames:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

I see. My Craftsmen has a wingnut and says not to over-tighten it. I'm going to get a high tension, thanks. 

I'm also going to get me a new hammer, a small ball peen hammer this time. I only really use it for anchors and such, no need for a claw hammer.


Edit: I see your edit. The high tension model in your picture looks similar to my hacksaw. Mine is pictured below, is that considered high tension or should I buy a new one?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

cdnelectrician said:


> I only wish that we had enough cordless drills to go around at work....still would not bring in my own power tools though/


 On some jobs we more drills than electrician's and on some it is the same way. Can't figure it out some times.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

We have just enough drills, bit whether the chuck spins straight, the battery holds a charge or the clutch works is a completely different story. If you send em back to the shop for repair you never see them ever again! lol I have no problem using a corded drill for some things...but then I have to find an extension cord and a temp panel to plug it into which is not easy most of the time!


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That makes no sense. You expect them to have their own, but if they break, you won't fix them because they could have used yours. Sounds contradictory. The way I see it, if you're expecting a guy to use his own power tool, the least you can do is have it serviced.


 
Yes.......and no.

When an employee shows up with a piece of crap B&D drill, uses it for 2 days and says he broke it on site.......should I have to pay for it to get fixed?

Also, if employees buy these tools, and end up using them outside their electrical job, don't count on the employer to cover the whole expense if they break.

If your a first year guy, buck up and buy some tools. If your worth a crap, your employer might give you a whole combo kit as a perk someday.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

cdnelectrician said:


> We have just enough drills, bit whether the chuck spins straight, the battery holds a charge or the clutch works is a completely different story. If you send em back to the shop for repair you never see them ever again! lol I have no problem using a corded drill for some things...but then I have to find an extension cord and a temp panel to plug it into which is not easy most of the time!


 Your shop has a black hole also.:laughing::laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> Really? That's odd. Tool coverage is mandated in most IBEW locals AFAIK. I wonder how they do it.
> 
> My first year as an apprentice I had $700 worth of new tools stolen off a job. The local only stipulated that they cover up to $500, but the contractor was nice and split the difference and gave me $600.


They're self-insured. That's why ONLY the tools on the tool list are covered, and not battery drills, porta-bands or your 555. :whistling2:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> They're self-insured.


We had to wait a few weeks for the checks, they said because the insurance company was working on it. I guess they were lying just to buy themselves some time :thumbup:


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Your shop has a black hole also.:laughing::laughing:


 
Yea...haha I kinda wonder if the "tool dude" at the shop just has a real quick look over the thing and just sends it off to the next jobsite though, lol. Off to the next electrician who will spend a few minutes cursing at it before it gets tossed in the back of the job box. Then eventually back to said "tool dude" at the shop and then, of course, back into circulation. Un-fixed.:jester:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

I couldn't tell you how long it's been since I used a hack saw.

What do you guys use them for, that a sawzall can't handle?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

cdnelectrician said:


> Yea...haha I kinda wonder if the "tool dude" at the shop just has a real quick look over the thing and just sends it off to the next jobsite though, lol. Off to the next electrician who will spend a few minutes cursing at it before it gets tossed in the back of the job box. Then eventually back to said "tool dude" at the shop and then, of course, back into circulation. Un-fixed.:jester:


 Sounds so familar.:laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> I checked my hacksaw (Craftsmen) and it doesn't say anything about being high tension. I assume that high tension hack saws just pull the blade tighter? That helps when cutting?
> 
> Also, I couldn't find a Milwaukee but Dewalt makes one. I normally hate cutting with a hacksaw so I could use any help I could get.


You need to put some arm into it. Build up some guns.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> I couldn't tell you how long it's been since I used a hack saw.
> 
> What do you guys use them for, that a sawzall can't handle?


Sometimes there aren't enough sawzalls to go around.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgery said:


> Sometimes there aren't enough sawzalls to go around.


Or, a place to plug it in. 

I keep a hacksaw hanging on the very back door of my truck. If I'm doing a service call, and only need a little piece of something, I just slide it out and saw a hunk off, right there at the back of the truck.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Yes.......and no.
> 
> When an employee shows up with a piece of crap B&D drill, uses it for 2 days and says he broke it on site.......should I have to pay for it to get fixed?


No



> Also, if employees buy these tools, and end up using them outside their electrical job, don't count on the employer to cover the whole expense if they break.


If you borrowed your neighbor's lawnmower, and broke it, how would you handle that situation?



> If your a first year guy, buck up and buy some tools. If your worth a crap, your employer might give you a whole combo kit as a perk someday.


Sure, and you'll also give them a unicorn on their birthday, and a bonus for bringing the job in on time and under budget... 

And if you are a first year guy and your employer suggests you might get a whole new combo kit... ask yourself why none of his other employees have one, and why there is such a shortage of cordless and cordd powertools in the first place.

You might also ask for detailed explainations whenever your employer suggests anything that includes the qualifier "If you're worth a crap..."


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> We had to wait a few weeks for the checks, they said because the insurance company was working on it. I guess they were lying just to buy themselves some time :thumbup:


Our local requires a police report and you do have to wait for the check to be processed.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Our local requires a police report and you do have to wait for the check to be processed.


Plus, it's probably prudent to wait a spell anyhow, in case the items turn up. I thought three whole gangboxes got stolen one day, but the drywallers just cut the chains and moved them out of their way. I wasn't happy about chains getting cut, but I was happy my boxes were still there.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


Sounds as if your back is against the wall, for now. I would not like to provide the drill but if they are the only game in town, I probably would. I like to buy tools anyway. Also, the proper tooth hacksaw blade makes a cut on sealtite easy. Good luck.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Also, the proper tooth hacksaw blade makes a cut on sealtite easy. Good luck.


How many tooth is best?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Forgery said:


> How many tooth is best?


I would say about 32/inch, but that's just me.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

This is for the open shop contractors (not employees), when you bid a job do you consider your labor using hand tools/cordless tools and corded tools? If you do consider the cordless then why wouldn't you supply them. I know a lot of guys are just as fast with their hand tools unless it is for setting brackets etc. in heavy steel,brick, masonry etc.

I like the idea of being able to have my own cordless drill and would take responsibility for it but, would like the idea of being required to have it.

For the OP, did you receive a tool list from the contractor? You used the term 1st year apprentice and not helper. That being said I believe you may have left out that there are standards for you and the contractor to follow.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Forgery said:


> I see. My Craftsmen has a wingnut and says not to over-tighten it. I'm going to get a high tension, thanks.
> 
> I'm also going to get me a new hammer, a small ball peen hammer this time. I only really use it for anchors and such, no need for a claw hammer.
> 
> ...


I would go with a brand like Lennix, Irwin, maybe a few others I can't think of.
I have all aluminum Stanley and a chrome Klein. They are models of the past and designs have changed slightly. Anyway I replaced the Stanley after the 1st year because it could not get the blade tight enough. When I had it I tightened the thumb tension all the way down. I believe something stretched on it besides the blade. Maybe the AL frame or just the thumb screw. The next one I didn't go crazy tightening it and all is good. When I store my saws I loosen the tension a bit (if I remember). The Stanley worked fine and was light to carry. While I like the Klein better because it's heavier. A heavier saw cuts faster or at least with less down force. You can store an extra blade in the frame. Expect to spend $20-25 on the saw and it will last you decades.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

A Nicholson is sturdy, stays tight, and allows you to store extra blades inside the frame. Though, if you use your saw correctly, you'll seldom need to resort to that extra blade.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The last guy I saw using a hacksaw I had to ask why he was working like a criminal...


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by active1
> It's supply and demand. Companies love the large supply of workers and will take advantage of the situation.
> 
> Yes, it is. Responsible business practices dictate that I make hay while the sun shines.
> ...


How is that righting the standard? How do you get the idea that a cordless set is the employees deal but the company provides the corded ones? What's the difference? To be honest I think some employees would be better if they bought the corded tools. An angle drill could cost the same as a 18v cordless hammer drill. The angle drill most likely will still be working 10 years later while the cordless one is long gone. The angle drill can be rebuilt for a reasonable price compared to the value. The cordless most often it's not the case. A corded sawsall will last a long time considering their not used as much as cordless and they are built heavier. 

I would also say with cordless tools around companies don't need to own so many corded tools or even extension cords. A company could have 20 electricians on a commercial job and get by with almost no corded tools provided.

The term for this is "externalizing costs". Instead of the company paying the cordless cost and passing it on to the customers cost, the employee pays the cost.

The last quoted statement is a prediction.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> Are you working with a Journeyman at all?


Yes, there are four apprentices (including me) and one JM with us. The JM has a cordless drill, but it's his own. So far we've been provided with some ladders, extension cords, a bottle of hand cleaner, some benders, and a chop saw.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> This is for the open shop contractors (not employees), when you bid a job do you consider your labor using hand tools/cordless tools and corded tools? If you do consider the cordless then why wouldn't you supply them. I know a lot of guys are just as fast with their hand tools unless it is for setting brackets etc. in heavy steel,brick, masonry etc.
> 
> I like the idea of being able to have my own cordless drill and would take responsibility for it but, would like the idea of being required to have it.
> 
> For the OP, did you receive a tool list from the contractor? You used the term 1st year apprentice and not helper. That being said I believe you may have left out that there are standards for you and the contractor to follow.


Often, nonunion contractors throw the term "apprentice" around like they actually have a legitimate program. Unless a contractor here is known to be union, assume by "apprentice" they really mean they hired anybody off the street...


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

A friend helped me get this job, because he knows the contractor. I'm at the very bottom of the ladder in pay (a few cents less than $12/hour) and I'm working my butt off with 60+ hour weeks just so I can afford to pay my bills/debts. I'm not sure how other merit shops operate in this city but all that seems to be handed to us are our paychecks every week. The IBEW has a local here and there's only one major job that they're managing right now, but that probably won't start for another year or two. I don't see the sense in joining the union, paying a year's worth of dues, only to find yourself at the bottom of a 300 person waiting list with no guarantee that you'll ever get work. I'm fine with having to provide hand tools, even an EMT bender, but the contractor should provide everything else, even if it's just one cordless drill. I'm going to talk to my boss about this sometime in the week, because if all I'm expected to do is sit around and twiddle my fingers because I don't have the proper power tools to do the work, then I don't call that learning anything. 

Now that I think about it there's some union work coming up in the summer, but if I decide to go union I don't think there will be enough work to have a steady income all year round.

I went to the Home Depot today and bought an 18V Ryobi cordless drill that was on sale for $80. Came with too NiCad batteries. Seemed like a good deal.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Often, nonunion contractors throw the term "apprentice" around like they actually have a legitimate program. Unless a contractor here is known to be union, assume by "apprentice" they really mean they hired anybody off the street...


I'm in a government run apprenticeship program so no matter what EC I work with, I'm an apprentice. I obtain the necessary hours, and write my JM exam to get licensed.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> For the OP, did you receive a tool list from the contractor?


No. I was just told to provide hand tools, and a bender if I had one.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> I went to the Home Depot today and bought an 18V Ryobi cordless drill that was on sale for $80. Came with too NiCad batteries. Seemed like a good deal.


Sweet man. As I recall Ryobi even lets you use their lithium ion batteries on their ni cad tools so if you grab a li-on Ryobi tool down the road some time, the batteries are interchangeable. Not sure if the nicad batteries work on the li-on tools though.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

active1 said:


> The term for this is "externalizing costs". Instead of the company paying the cordless cost and passing it on to the customers cost, the employee pays the cost.


From a business perspective, I fail to see the problem. There does not seem to be a shortage of workmen willing to provide their own cordless drill. The last time I ran an ad on Monster, I put in (among other things) that the applicant must have hand tools and a cordless drill. I got over 1400 resumes submitted in two week's time. I run a business. Whether the cost is externalized or passed on to the customer, the net result for me is the same. My sole purpose in life is to win work and make profits. It's not up to me to see to it that every workman's personal needs are met. That's where personal responsibility for your own situation come into play. 

You know much about personal responsibility?

EDIT... I actually ran that same ad on Monster and my state's unemployment website, so those resumes came from two places. Just wanted full disclosure there.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Often, nonunion contractors throw the term "apprentice" around like they actually have a legitimate program. Unless a contractor here is known to be union, assume by "apprentice" they really mean they hired anybody off the street...


You don't need a so called legitimate program to have apprentices......

Spend some of those big bucks you keep braggin about and buy a dictionary for heavens sake so you can limit some of your damage control.....

Here...I will help you.....
Main Entry: *1ap·pren·tice* 
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpren-təs\
Function: _noun_ 
Usage: _often attributive_ 
Etymology: Middle English _aprentis,_ from Anglo-French _apprentiz,_ from _aprendre_ to learn, from Latin _apprendere, apprehendere_
Date: 14th century
*1 a* *:* one bound by indenture to serve another for a prescribed period with a view to learning an art or trade *b* *:* *one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling*

I see nowhere in there requiring a legitimate program....you can indenture with the union....or apprentice non union.......


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> From a business perspective, I fail to see the problem. There does not seem to be a shortage of workmen willing to provide their own cordless drill. The last time I ran an ad on Monster, I put in (among other things) that the applicant must have hand tools and a cordless drill. I got over 1400 resumes submitted in two week's time. I run a business. Whether the cost is externalized or passed on to the customer, the net result for me is the same. My sole purpose in life is to win work and make profits. It's not up to me to see to it that every workman's personal needs are met. That's where personal responsibility for your own situation come into play.
> 
> You know much about personal responsibility?
> 
> EDIT... I actually ran that same ad on Monster and my state's unemployment website, so those resumes came from two places. Just wanted full disclosure there.


You failed to answer the question. Why do you even bother to provide corded tools? Why not require your workers bring that if electricians are as common as dirt? More profit for you or cheaper for your customers. I hope you don't waist money for any time off for your people. Well your at it how about requiring the employees to have their own service trucks and fuel.

Personal responsibility. Yes. I have worked in each side of the fence. From companies that provide everything. To ones that give you nothing. I will say the ones that provided everything (but hand tools) in my experience were also the ones with strong safety programs, well organized, efficient, and profitable. Typical as stated by the orignal poster the company that provides little support appears to be inefficient. Also as a EC I always provided everything except hand tools. 

Have you herd of corporate social responsibility (CSR)?

How about a tripple bottom line? People, planet, profit.

A Trippe bottom line business would not use child labor, would pay fair salaries to its workers, would maintain a safe work environment, tolerable working hours, and would not otherwise exploit a community or its labor force. By making a statement of why should you provide cordless equipment when you have 1400 hungry people is doing just that. Exploiting the potential workers for your profit.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You spent 54 minutes typing this up, the forum software tells me, so I guess you deserve a response. You must have been on the phone with your BA or leafing through IBEW propaganda to come up with something good. 



active1 said:


> You failed to answer the question. Why do you even bother to provide corded tools?


 Oh, that's an easy one. Because I choose to. The cordless drill is becoming as much of a "required hand tool" as any other hand tool that has been added to the basic required assortment over the years. 



active1 said:


> you herd of corporate social responsibility (CSR)?


 Yep, sure have. It's another way of talking about socialism. Another thing, I'm not much of a spelling Nazi, but as long as you took to type this, the least you could have done was spelled heard correctly.



active1 said:


> How about a tripple bottom line? People, planet, profit.


 Yes. I take care of all three. Just not the way you think I should. 



active1 said:


> Exploiting the potential workers for your profit.


How is it that you can exploit willing adults with legal practices? Nobody is making anyone work for me. They can choose to work for whoever they like. See, we're back to personal responsibility again. :thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not much of a spelling Nazi, but as long as you took to type this, the least you could have done was spelled heard correctly.


And "Waste"

~Matt


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You spent 54 minutes typing this up, the forum software tells me, so I guess you deserve a response. You must have been on the phone with your BA or leafing through IBEW propaganda to come up with something good.
> 
> Oh, that's an easy one. Because I choose to. The cordless drill is becoming as much of a "required hand tool" as any other hand tool that has been added to the basic required assortment over the years.
> 
> ...




So to sum up your reply:
I took too long with a post (because I received a phone call).
You think I'm connected to the union. Think again.
There were typo's.
Taking care of your employees and the environment is socialism

As said before your taking advantage of a bad situation many electricians are in. You could put in the ad they're required to eat dirt and you still would have applicants. That don't make it right.

The cordless tool set is becoming a trend because of companies run like yours.

You think it's irresponsible for workers that don't believe it should be required to buy powered tools. 

To provide for the workers is socialism? That's getting to be quite the worn out buzz word. 

You think even apprentices should own & maintain a cordless set like the original poster? 

You posted in the past at least several times about how extremely costly your company's test equipment but you don't spring for some Dewalt sets? 

Who buy the drill bits in your company?

Comes back to personal responsibility? No, it comes back to a choice to say no to work for a deal like that. Just as it's my choice to object to companies that want the employees to purchase consumables.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Often, nonunion contractors throw the term "apprentice" around like they actually have a legitimate program. Unless a contractor here is known to be union, assume by "apprentice" they really mean they hired anybody off the street...


Dude seriously you make yourself a joke when talk about stuff you clearly do not know about.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I went through a non union state accredited apprentice program...? And I can wire circles around any union cat.......na na.. na... na... na na :laughing:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> A friend helped me get this job, because he knows the contractor. I'm at the very bottom of the ladder in pay (a few cents less than $12/hour) and I'm working my butt off with 60+ hour weeks just so I can afford to pay my bills/debts.


We are in agreement that you are doing extremely well. You have a job, with lots of overtime afforded to you. We have no idea what bills and debts you have, as a first year apprentice, but that paycheck should more than cover your debts, and you should be banking 1/3 of that.




> I'm not sure how other merit shops operate in this city but all that seems to be handed to us are our paychecks every week.


 
What else do you expect? You get a payment every week like clockwork, the check clears every week, and you have a opportunity to do it again next week. What more do you expect from an employer? A fresh ham?



> I'm fine with having to provide hand tools, even an EMT bender, but the contractor should provide everything else, even if it's just one cordless drill. I'm going to talk to my boss about this sometime in the week, because if all I'm expected to do is sit around and twiddle my fingers because I don't have the proper power tools to do the work, then I don't call that learning anything.


I call it a quick step to the unemployment line.




> I went to the Home Depot today and bought an 18V Ryobi cordless drill that was on sale for $80. Came with too NiCad batteries. Seemed like a good deal.


 

Walked in, and bought the cheapest crap?

You could of saved yourself $80 if you only would of stared a thread about what type of work you do, and what do some of these seasoned electricians recommend.

You'll burn that piece of crap out drilling wood studs or something, and then expect the employer to buy you a new one.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Dnkldorf;198835]We are in agreement that you are doing extremely well. You have a job, with lots of overtime afforded to you. We have no idea what bills and debts you have, as a first year apprentice, but that paycheck should more than cover your debts, and you should be banking 1/3 of that.


 I wouldn't call $12 per hour extremely well,although that's about right for a brand new first year apprentice.I couldn't expect anyone to bank a third of $12 per hour,unless they were 18 and lived at home with mommy and daddy.





> What else do you expect? You get a payment every week like clockwork, the check clears every week, and you have a opportunity to do it again next week. What more do you expect from an employer? A fresh ham?


That's just about all that's required in a non union shop.but that makes me second guess his "apprentice" status.Here you have to be in a state approved apprenticeship for an employer to call you an apprentice.Perhaps he is just a "Helper".But then again it's probably different were he's at.




> I call it a quick step to the unemployment line.
> Walked in, and bought the cheapest crap?


Find something to do.But he should have been informed that he would need his own power tools.



> You could of saved yourself $80 if you only would of stared a thread about what type of work you do, and what do some of these seasoned electricians recommend.


How much do you expect a first year apprentice making barely over minimum wage spend on a drill?I would say $80-100 is more then enough and yes if it burn's out the contractor should get a new one to replace it.(Although he should be supplying the drill anyway)



> You'll burn that piece of crap out drilling wood studs or something, and then expect the employer to buy you a new one.


He'll most definitely burn it out.Wouldn't it be easier and more productive if the contractor provided the proper tools and material to get the job done from the gate?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> I wouldn't call $12 per hour extremely well,although that's about right for a brand new first year apprentice.


I call being employed, making good money for a first year guy, AND having overtime available to you, in any market...doing extremely well.





> I couldn't expect anyone to bank a third of $12 per hour,


That think thing again. 

He is getting double paychecks, every week. 

He can bank at least 1/3 of that, easy.









> That's just about all that's required in a non union shop.but that makes me second guess his "apprentice" status.Here you have to be in a state approved apprenticeship for an employer to call you an apprentice.


An apprentice is a :

New guy
Greenhorn
Ditch digger
Lunch grabber
Gopher

and a bunch more.

There is no legal definition of an "apprentice" anywhere. 




> But he should have been informed that he would need his own power tools.


Fast forward to the real world. 

You have tools to work indoors, where the radios are, and out of the elements,....... go work over there.

You got nothing......outside and help dig ditches.

Your call on the cordless drill. No-one is asking you to provide your own porta-band or 555 bender. Get real.







> How much do you expect a first year apprentice making barely over minimum wage spend on a drill?I would say $80-100 is more then enough and yes if it burn's out the contractor should get a new one to replace it.


As you can see, I highlighted your hypocrtical propaganda crap.

He can spend a $1000 for a new cordless drill. It can come with a gold plated clucth for all I give a hoot. You can polish a terd anyway you like, but it will always be a terd.

If that tool you bought, isn't designed to be used in a manor that you used it, Employers do not HAVE to reinburse you for breaking your tool.





> He'll most definitely burn it out.Wouldn't it be easier and more productive if the contractor provided the proper tools and material to get the job done from the gate?


Most do. 

Problem is one guy thinks he needs it, doesn't put it back when he's done, forgets to put it away, hides it from someone else cause he doesnt feel like looking for it. 

And a host of other reasons why tools aren't where they should be for people to use.. 

Funny how if the employer owns it, it gets treated like crap.
But if you own it, you keep it clean, put it away and don't kick it across the floor.


----------



## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> There is no legal definition of an "apprentice" anywhere.


What point are you trying to make? Because as was said, many, if not most places, you have to be in a state approved apprenticeship. That makes it a very clear definition.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> What point are you trying to make?


 
That this is nonsense:




> Here you have to be in a state approved apprenticeship for an employer to call you an apprentice


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> An apprentice is a :
> 
> New guy
> Greenhorn
> ...


----------



## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> That this is nonsense:


How is it nonsense???


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Thomps said:


> actually, there are legal descriptions for an apprentice.


 
Only as it applies to pay, under a federal project or PLA.


You can call helpers, apprentices, all day long without any legal recourse.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

You have to love this kind of crap as each side refuses to see the others side. For the old timers think about this, how many young guns come on the job and want to have what you have but have no idea how to use it? They want what looks to be the coolest. Some not all want advanced work because they don't want to be the slave! That means they will buy power tools/benders thinking that they won't have to carry material or pick up trash.

The OP just thinks he needs a cordless, no one has told him he did. If a contractor does not supply what is needed for their job (materials/specialty tools) and the job goes sideways who takes responsibility?

Those that throw out the bs of pay/benefits, market share never mention the cost of living of the OP just what they think is right for where they are. People want to work and need to work. There is not enough union work throughout the country and Canada to employ all of the trained and qualified electricians out there. There are not enough customers to finance work that is beyond their means. No projects, no work, no work people not buying.

I won't assume anything, it is to easy to get information including facts and bs and come to my own conclusion.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

rlc3854 said:


> You have to love this kind of crap as each side refuses to see the others side.


That's not true. As a union member I have no problem with requiring workers provide their own cordless drill. Hell, I don't even think the contractor should have to repair it, just like they don't pay to repair damaged hand tools. As others have said, you never know how old a cordless drill really is or how the worker has been using it on the side. If the contractor is responsible to fix it, then the worker can mistreat it just like they do with the contractor owned power tools. 

I also don't agree with the typical union conspiracy theory that if we add another tool to the tool list that soon they will be trying to push rotary hammers and smart benders


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

rlc3854 said:


> The OP just thinks he needs a cordless, no one has told him he did. If a contractor does not supply what is needed for their job (materials/specialty tools) and the job goes sideways who takes responsibility?


I thought the point was to understand who makes the decission on what, and how much of it is considered provided.

If an employer provides 2 corded drills, for 4 electricans, is that enough?

Should they provide every apprentice a cordless drill, and fix it, if the guy job is moving stock, getting coffee, and picking things up.

If he's a first year guy, where is the journeyman, or foreman, or head electrician, and why isn't he asking him what he'll need?


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Forgery said:


> That's not true. As a union member I have no problem with requiring workers provide their own cordless drill. Hell, I don't even think the contractor should have to repair it, just like they don't pay to repair damaged hand tools. As others have said, you never know how old a cordless drill really is or how the worker has been using it on the side. If the contractor is responsible to fix it, then the worker can mistreat it just like they do with the contractor owned power tools.
> 
> I also don't agree with the typical union conspiracy theory that if we add another tool to the tool list that soon they will be trying to push rotary hammers and smart benders


Good for you at least you have shared the fact that you are open minded and have your own opinion. Since the beginning days of construction tools have been supplied by both employers and employees. Both sides have set standards and through time the standards have changed with the times.

Are you working with your local to change your tool list to include cordless tools? Do you use your personal non-tool list tools on the job? You know like a step bit or slug buster?


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Only as it applies to pay, under a federal project or PLA.
> 
> 
> You can call helpers, apprentices, all day long without any legal recourse.



You think you know EVERYTHING don't you? Just because you call somebody an apprentice,doesn't make it so.In the state of Pennsylvania to have a LEGAL apprenticeship 1) The apprentice must be registered with the PA dept. of labor and 2) Must be enrolled in a state approved apprenticeship.This applies to union AND non-union.

Just because you hire some kid and call him an "apprentice" doesn't mean squat.Sure you can call him what ever you like but just because you call him something doesn't make it true.
I got news for you,if your so-called apprentice wasn't enrolled in a state approved program and registered with the D.O.L his "apprenticeship" with you doesn't mean a thing.He or she can't get a job that requires an apprenticeship or a J-man card,can't work on P.W. jobs or land an electrician's gig with a place like septa.

Another thing is you can't put out an add advertising applications for apprenticeship unless your apprenticeship is legit.So you can call him an apprentice all you want but for all intents and purposes he's just a helper.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> I call being employed, making good money for a first year guy, AND having overtime available to you, in any market...doing extremely well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So in a nutshell your a cheapskate,penny pincher and out of touch.99% of contractors provide power tools.To consider $12 an hour good money is just asinine.So let me get this straight,You wanna dictate wages,conditions,what tools are needed and how much money a guy should be saving...Oh,and $12 per hour is good money!:laughing:.Seriously how many guy's you got working for you?It can't be really that many?,Who the hell would tolerate your outrageous conditions for more then a couple of weeks.It's beyond belief that you actually have a legit employment base.


----------



## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

rlc3854 said:


> Are you working with your local to change your tool list to include cordless tools?


 I have voiced my opinion. There is little more I could do.


> Do you use your personal non-tool list tools on the job?


 Absolutely, everything from spin tights to ratcheting combination wrenches (I can't live without those!). I also use a Fluke T-5 or 322 meter when the tool list only specifies a Wiggy solenoid tester.


> You know like a step bit or slug buster?


 I've been given Uni-bits by contractors that I have taken with me to the next contractor, I have no problem with that. I'm not sure if I'd like using my own unless I knew they would replace it when it dulled. As for slug busters, IMO they are a waste of time. I jump from hole saw up to a hydraulic KO set, those little slug busters that you use a wrench on are a waste of time IMO.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> You think you know EVERYTHING don't you?


 
Far from it.....I just learned that pea gravel in your crete fills and finishes better, and doesn't cost you a nickel extra.

How cool is that?


So, I don't know everything,....don't claim to either...... but I am getting better at spoting BS when I see it.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Far from it.....I just learned that pea gravel in your crete fills and finishes better, and doesn't cost you a nickel extra.
> 
> How cool is that?
> 
> ...


Why didn't you refute the rest of his post? The part where he proved your assertion wrong?


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Far from it.....I just learned that pea gravel in your crete fills and finishes better, and doesn't cost you a nickel extra.
> 
> How cool is that?
> 
> ...



Of course.Everything is B.S. when it doesn't fit in with your opinion.How convenient.:whistling2:

Then again I wouldn't expect you to know the first thing about a real apprenticeship.But I'm sure your next response will be how you went through an apprenticeship and know everything about it,and I'm just shooting off at the mouth.:laughing:
Your an endless source of entertainment.I can't wait to be an electrician!Supply my own power tools and I get to make a whopping $12 per hour! Your the greatest.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Only as it applies to pay, under a federal project or PLA.
> 
> 
> You can call helpers, apprentices, all day long without any legal recourse.


 
again, sorry, but no. :no:

TQAA (Trades Qualification Apprenticeship Act)

admended 1993

Definitions:

1. In this Act,

"apprentice" means a person is at least 16 years of age, and who has entered into a contract under which the person "is to receive" from or through his/her employer, training and instruction in a trade.

9. Duties to register an apprentice
(1) every person who who commences work at a trade for which an apprentices training program is in place, but who does not a certifiaction of a pprenticeship or a qualification in the trade shall

(a) forthwith apply in the prescribed form for apprenticeship in that trade; and
(b) within 3 months of commencing work, file with the director his or her contract of apprenticeship.

(2) no persons other than registered apprentices or a peron of a class is exempt from this section

(3) no person shall employ any person other than an apprentice or a person of a class in the perscribed trade

The legislation also goes on to describe the completion of the apprenticeship and the certification of qualification

section 1055 goes on to describe the apprenticeship program as they relate to specific trades.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90t17_e.htm

so, any person working in the trade who is not a registered apprentices or a holder of a certification of qualification is by law, unskilled labour. And trust me, there is serious legal recourse in this area.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Thomps said:


> again, sorry, but no. :no:
> 
> TQAA (Trades Qualification Apprenticeship Act)
> 
> ...



Outside of what I described you don't have to be an apprentice to work in the trades.I don't think the TQAA applies here in the states.Although it should be.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Why didn't you refute the rest of his post? The part where he proved your assertion wrong?



Please,do tell?


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Outside of what I described you don't have to be an apprentice to work in the trades.I don't think the TQAA applies here in the states.Although it should be.


No, it's an Ontario legislation. Other provinces have similar laws. Sorry, I don't know much about the laws in the states.

We can have people working in the trade who are not regisitered or licensed, but they have a very restricted job description defining what they can and can't do. The legislation is becoming more and more of a hot topic with the MOL (ministry of Labour) who are doing a good job enforcing the legislation evenly across the province.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Thomps said:


> No, it's an Ontario legislation. Other provinces have similar laws. Sorry, I don't know much about the laws in the states.
> 
> We can have people working in the trade who are not regisitered or licensed, but they have a very restricted job description defining what they can and can't do. The legislation is becoming more and more of a hot topic with the MOL (ministry of Labour) who are doing a good job enforcing the legislation evenly across the province.



That's great.Wish we had something like that here in the states.To many contractors Like Dnkldrf making things hard on good contractors,Both union and non.It's different for each state.In PA and in Jersey you can perform electrical work without an apprenticeship or a license as long as you work under somebody who holds a license.

Of course that's outside what's required to be enrolled in a STATE APPROVED APPRENTICE PROGRAM.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Thomps said:


> again, sorry, but no. :no:
> 
> TQAA (Trades Qualification Apprenticeship Act)


 
I went  here 


It appears that this act is somehow only relivant to some type of federal construction guidlines.

This act doesn't appear to have any language in it, stating that it has any bearing on private industry at all.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Is this the post you want me to rebute?




slickvic277 said:


> Just because you call somebody an apprentice,doesn't make it so.


 
Sure it does. Corporate world throws around titles like VP, just to make people feel important. Same thing with apprentice. Rather than call someone a helper, we call them an apprentice. It's not against any law to do so.




> In the state of Pennsylvania to have a LEGAL apprenticeship.


We are talking about the word apprentice, not any apprentiship programs. 

Nice try on the diversion tactic.



> Just because you hire some kid and call him an "apprentice" doesn't mean squat.Sure you can call him what ever you like but just because you call him something doesn't make it true.


They call you and LGLS electricians, even give you JW title. 
True, the word doesn't mean squat in both examples....but the title makes you feel good.





> Another thing is you can't put out an add advertising applications for apprenticeship unless your apprenticeship is legit.So you can call him an apprentice all you want but for all intents and purposes he's just a helper.


Again, If I need help on a project, and put an add in the paper looking for Apprentices/helpers or what ever I want to call them........is some vice squad from the dept of labor going to come and take me away?


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> I went here
> 
> 
> It appears that this act is somehow only relivant to some type of federal construction guidlines.
> ...


 

did you read the first line on that page?

it is not the offical regulations, and are to be used for reference only.


That link is to the regulations as per the Apprenticeship and trades qualification act (Bill 28) for Nova Scotia

which can be found here

http://www.gov.ns.ca/legislature/legc/bills/58th_3rd/3rd_read/b028.htm


The act does define an apprentice as:

(b) "apprentice" means a person who enters into an apprenticeship agreement with an employer;

it goes on to define the agreement and the program.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shado said:


> You don't need a so called legitimate program to have apprentices......
> 
> Spend some of those big bucks you keep braggin about and buy a dictionary for heavens sake so you can limit some of your damage control.....
> 
> ...


Apprentices, today, have it a lot better than their counterparts back in the days of the Knights, and so on, when indentureships started. From my understanding, the reason that the Knights took their Squires to war with them is because they would not let them take WOMEN.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> [Dnkldorf;198906
> Sure it does. Corporate world throws around titles like VP, just to make people feel important. Same thing with apprentice. Rather than call someone a helper, we call them an apprentice. It's not against any law to do so.


 I never stated that it was.Unless your using such "helper" on P.W. jobs,refineries or large hospitals.(MOST of these industries require apprentices and journeyman with the applied training to work in them).
Now if your employing "apprentices" in these places but there not in a training program well then your making an unfair labor practice.



> We are talking about the word apprentice, not any apprentiship programs.
> 
> Nice try on the diversion tactic.


So you don't have to be an apprentice program to be an apprentice.Well just call me an astronaut,even though I'm not in a nasa training program I still wanna be called an astronaut.



> They call you and LGLS electricians, even give you JW title.
> True, the word doesn't mean squat in both examples....but the title makes you feel good.


 Actually the title means plenty.It means we both went through state approved apprenticeship programs.Being a Journeyman wireman allows us to work on government jobs and other industry(like refineries)that require such training.




> Again, If I need help on a project, and put an add in the paper looking for Apprentices/helpers or what ever I want to call them........is some vice squad from the dept of labor going to come and take me away?


Nope.But if your glorified helper gets a clue that YOUR apprenticeship is no such thing.Then you might possibly have a ULP charge on your hands.

i just want to get one thing straight,in your world someone can be an apprentice without an apprenticeship?What does one receive after completion of an imaginary apprenticeship?When someone is employed by you as an apprentice,when is there apprenticeship completed and what do they receive?Is there "DNKLDRF" certificate?Is this card transferable to other jobs and companies requiring apprenticeships.
How many hours in the field before your a certified dnkldrftrician?

I'm curious how does this program work?If I buy a drill can I be apart of that program?It really seems to be filled with opportunity.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

You get upset wayyyy to easy.


Take a chill pill.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Forgery, I'm beginning to like you even though you're a norther 

I bet your one of those guys that shows up ready, willing and able to work all day. Don't listen to things like "look everyone only installs xx# of feet of conduit per day".


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Vic, on prevailing wage jobs you must an apprentice, journeyman, or laborer. A laborer is not permitted to use tools other than a broom, shovel etc. They can not pull wire, install fixtures or do any associated work. If you call someone an apprentice and do not have them enrolled in an 
state approved apprenticeship program you must pay them journeyman rate. If you are out of ratio on a PW job you may have to pay journeyman wages for the time you are out of ratio. It is this way in Md. and across the Country.

Charlie


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

DNKLDORF, before you use pea gravel in your concrete make sure it is still an approved mix with the job specs. 
After seeing some of the questions you post on the forums how can be all you claim to be. Anyone who acts like he is the best thing since sliced bread surely can read specs and drawings and not have to ask stupid questions. Yes we all ask questions here because we dont understand. There is a lot to our trade and I thank the people that make these forums available to us. But dont argue with their answers, if you dont think its right move on. Well I quess its almost time for you to pick up your toys and leave like you have done in the past.

Charlie:whistling2:


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> DNKLDORF, before you use pea gravel in your concrete make sure it is still an approved mix with the job specs.
> After seeing some of the questions you post on the forums how can be all you claim to be. Anyone who acts like he is the best thing since sliced bread surely can read specs and drawings and not have to ask stupid questions. Yes we all ask questions here because we dont understand. There is a lot to our trade and I thank the people that make these forums available to us. But dont argue with their answers, if you dont think its right move on. Well I quess its almost time for you to pick up your toys and leave like you have done in the past.
> 
> Charlie:whistling2:


WOW CK, what are you really trying to say


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Wasn't this thread about drills?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

What did I say that got you all wound up?

I am par from nerfect.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

My bad.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Walked in, and bought the cheapest crap?
> 
> You could of saved yourself $80 if you only would of stared a thread about what type of work you do, and what do some of these seasoned electricians recommend.


Don't listen to this fool, OP. Ryobi is plenty adequate to get started. I've worked with 2nd and 3rd year apprentices that try to get by with nothing but a screw driver and kleins. Hell, same goes for journeymen.

It's taken me 3 years to build up my tool collection, but then again, I don't have children, and split rent and bills 3 ways, and paid for my new(ish) car in cash.

You might enjoy the freedom and convenience of having more of your own tools.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Wasn't this thread about drills?


Definitely is. I'm not interested in spending a few hundred dollars on a drill. Why should I? Unless the contractor is going to pay me a good wage I shouldn't be obligated to have the best of the best. Unless he pays me $20/hour, which isn't happening right now :no:

I bought a drill yesterday but I haven't used it yet. In fact, I'm thinking about returning it. $100 is a great price for a drill, and I've been told Ryobi is a good brand name, but there's pros and cons to having any drill.

I didn't mean to start an argument about what who is considered an apprentice/helper, but I'm fully registered under government legislation and I have the paperwork that states I'm an apprentice. I wouldn't have gone to school if I was only considered a helper in the end.

And for the record, I don't get overtime. I'm paid a straight wage no matter how many hours I work. I've been trying to work 60 hours/week, but if the JM wants to leave early, then I can't stick around. That parts a drag, but in a couple months I'll get a raise so it will be less of a problem.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I cannot understand the logic behind wanting to return a drill considering how useful it is at work and at home. It makes your job easier and work or no work, a drill is something a dude should own IMO. I don't get paid much more than you do, and I get half the hours you are getting but I could easily justify buying a drill. I don't see any cons to owning one. As a matter of fact, after my site was robbed last week, bringing in my own drill allowed me to continue working whereas I'd have been stuck with my hands in my pockets otherwise. We should be getting new tools from the company this week.

FWIW I have no idea what the laws in Newfoundland are but in Ontario it's straight up illegal not to pay overtime beyond 44 hours in a week.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I cannot understand the logic behind wanting to return a drill considering how useful it is at work and at home. It makes your job easier and work or no work, a drill is something a dude should own IMO. I don't get paid much more than you do, and I get half the hours you are getting but I could easily justify buying a drill. I don't see any cons to owning one. As a matter of fact, after my site was robbed last week, bringing in my own drill allowed me to continue working whereas I'd have been stuck with my hands in my pockets otherwise. We should be getting new tools from the company this week.
> 
> FWIW I have no idea what the laws in Newfoundland are but in Ontario it's straight up illegal not to pay overtime beyond 44 hours in a week.


I work for a non-union shop so the labor laws might be different because of that. I worked 54 hours last week and I'll get no time and a half for over 40, just regular pay.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> I work for a non-union shop so the labor laws might be different because of that. I worked 54 hours last week and I'll get no time and a half for over 40, just regular pay.


No. Labour laws are labour laws whether you're union or not. I suggest you inform yourself about the law on overtime in NL so that you don't get screwed. Chances are it's similar to Ontario and if it is, your contractor is breaking the law and screwing you out of overtime pay. It is possible to anonymously inform the provincial ministry of labour.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> Definitely is. I'm not interested in spending a few hundred dollars on a drill. Why should I? Unless the contractor is going to pay me a good wage I shouldn't be obligated to have the best of the best. Unless he pays me $20/hour, which isn't happening right now :no:
> 
> I bought a drill yesterday but I haven't used it yet. In fact, I'm thinking about returning it. $100 is a great price for a drill, and I've been told Ryobi is a good brand name, but there's pros and cons to having any drill.
> 
> ...



Is there no overtime laws in Canada?


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> This company has most of the contracts going on in the city for this year. I'd be a fool to leave now.


You just answered your own question. A requirement to work for this company is power tools. I know how you feel but you can't do much about it if you want to work for them. My biggest gripe is your co-workers not wanting to buy batteries so they want to borrow yours. If you want your batteries to last tell them to get their own.


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## RyanB (Jul 14, 2009)

It's pretty standard for non-union shops to demand you supply your own powertools (at least in Vancouver area). It's also not uncommon for them to demand you own a vehicle. You should get a vehicle allowance plus mileage on every cheque if using your vehicle for work. 

Expendables, like hacksaw blades, should always be supplied by the company.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I just want to get one thing straight,in your world someone can be an apprentice without an apprenticeship?
> 
> *Yes....*
> 
> ...


As you can see, the requirements are different for other states......does it mean any better or worse than where you live? No....just different...


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Apprentices, today, have it a lot better than their counterparts back in the days of the Knights, and so on, when indentureships started. From my understanding, the reason that the Knights took their Squires to war with them is because they would not let them take WOMEN.


I was doing OK until the last line!!!! :no:
Yes....things are WAY BETTER today.......:thumbup:...and yes....your understanding is correct.


----------



## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I cannot understand the logic behind wanting to return a drill considering how useful it is at work and at home. It makes your job easier and work or no work, a drill is something a dude should own IMO. I don't get paid much more than you do, and I get half the hours you are getting but I could easily justify buying a drill. I don't see any cons to owning one. As a matter of fact, after my site was robbed last week, bringing in my own drill allowed me to continue working whereas I'd have been stuck with my hands in my pockets otherwise. We should be getting new tools from the company this week.
> 
> FWIW I have no idea what the laws in Newfoundland are but in Ontario it's straight up illegal not to pay overtime beyond 44 hours in a week.


I couldn't imagine living without a cordless drill at home...even if you dont use it for work. Unless you are renting, but as a home owner i use it almost daily, even working on my vehicles or atv's.

Anyways, an employer in Canada is required to pay time and a half over 8 hours per day and 44 hours a week and sat holidays. If you are not working for a stat holiday, they have to pay you 8 hours regular time.

BUT...this does leave you in a sticky situation...you just got this job, and have been waiting for a long time to get a job like this, and if you lost it, it might take a long time to get another like it. Do you really want to start complaining to your boss? That's a tough call...............


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> So you don't have to be an apprentice program to be an apprentice.


It depends on the area, here apprentices should be registered with the state if they are aiming to get their license. But no one holds their hand, they have to find it within themselves to make a commitment and do it.

It happens where I work we have a state approved apprentice school, many merit shops do not. 

Some shops pay for the apprentices to go school many do not, if the company does not pay the apprentice has to pay.

Much like any choice of profession that requires collage.




> Well just call me an astronaut,even though I'm not in a nasa training program I still wanna be called an astronaut.


I do not want to shock you but you are not the decider of who is anprentice and who is not. No one has to use the word apprentice like the IBEW uses it.



> Actually the title means plenty.It means we both went through state approved apprenticeship programs.Being a Journeyman wireman allows us to work on government jobs and other industry(like refineries)that require such training.


It means nothing outside your world, here there is no such title as 'wireman'.

Here we have apprentices, journeymen and Masters.

Apprentices have to be supervised 1 to 1.

J-men can run small companies and work on anything.

Masters can run any size company.




> Nope.But if your glorified helper gets a clue that YOUR apprenticeship is no such thing.Then you might possibly have a ULP charge on your hands.


You are now in that LGLS fantasy land.



> i just want to get one thing straight,in your world someone can be an apprentice without an apprenticeship?What does one receive after completion of an imaginary apprenticeship?When someone is employed by you as an apprentice,when is there apprenticeship completed and what do they receive?Is there "DNKLDRF" certificate?Is this card transferable to other jobs and companies requiring apprenticeships.


Here you get nothing but training as an apprentice, no gold star, no pat on the back. If you complete the apprenticeship you get to take a test to be a J-man.

Here you have to have 8000 hrs of OJT and 600 or 800 hrs school time to become eligible to take the jman test. 

Again what may well be true in your little slice of heaven is not what is true across the country. :thumbsup:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> It depends on the area, here apprentices should be registered with the state if they are aiming to get their license. But no one holds their hand, they have to find it within themselves to make a commitment and do it.
> 
> It happens where I work we have a state approved apprentice school, many merit shops do not.
> 
> ...


Your whole entire posts proves my point.Just because you call someone an apprentice doesn't make it so.If your an "apprentice" in a merit shop that does not enroll in a state approved and/or recognized program then your not an apprentice.I hate to brake the news to you but I've worked open shop and know the difference between a helper and an apprentice.

While it is true that a helper can work in the trade for many,many years and become a competent "electrical installer" or "electrician" or what ever other title the merit contractor wishes to give them,the bottom line is with out formal education in an approved and recognized program you for all intents and purposes are not an apprentice.There are many other jobs out there besides IBEW hiring halls that require a recognized program or equivalent training.Hospitals,manufacturing,refineries,chemical plants,ship yards,train yards, these are all industries were many company's require approved training. From approved programs.So if someone spends there whole career with Joe Blow electric and never goes through at least the basic training and becomes licensed they are limiting themselves.So like I said calling some one an apprentice doesn't make it so.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

kawimudslinger said:


> Anyways, an employer in Canada is required to pay time and a half over 8 hours per day and 44 hours a week and sat holidays. If you are not working for a stat holiday, they have to pay you 8 hours regular time.


Um...wrong. For one thing the laws you're talking about aren't Canadian, just as in the US they aren't American. They fall under provincial and state control respectively. What's true in B.C. isn't necessarily even close to what its like in PEI and most likely isn't. Same goes for the US, what labor laws are like in Florida aren't even close to what they're like in NY.



slickvic277 said:


> Your whole entire posts proves my point.Just because you call someone an apprentice doesn't make it so.If your an "apprentice" in a merit shop that does not enroll in a state approved and/or recognized program then your not an apprentice.I hate to brake the news to you but I've worked open shop and know the difference between a helper and an apprentice.
> 
> While it is true that a helper can work in the trade for many,many years and become a competent "electrical installer" or "electrician" or what ever other title the merit contractor wishes to give them,the bottom line is with out formal education in an approved and recognized program you for all intents and purposes are not an apprentice.There are many other jobs out there besides IBEW hiring halls that require a recognized program or equivalent training.Hospitals,manufacturing,refineries,chemical plants,ship yards,train yards, these are all industries were many company's require approved training. From approved programs.So if someone spends there whole career with Joe Blow electric and never goes through at least the basic training and becomes licensed they are limiting themselves.So like I said calling some one an apprentice doesn't make it so.


Again I can't say what its like in the other provinces or states for that matter, but being on these forums makes it pretty clear that some places are just ripe for exploitation. Up here, barring several exceptions, no one but a licensed journeyman or a registered apprentice can perform any work that falls under the CEC. Helpers can't legally so much as tighten a screw to put on a strap or put on a cover plate on a job-site.

The training program is controlled by the province and its the same training weather you're union or open shop. The province tells the apprentice when to go to school as well. Lately they've been cracking down on apprentices who drag their feet and give them a warning if they pass up on school more than once giving them the option to go to school or get their status revoked. There are pretty clear rules regarding what the minimum training is, the pay scale as a percentage of journeyman rates for each year (1st thru 5th) and the ratios of journeymen to apprentices that companies must adhere to.

Around here there are journeymen and apprentices. Anything else is breaking the law.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Whoops!

I broke the law for 2 of my 3 years in the trade.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Whoops!
> 
> I broke the law for 2 of my 3 years in the trade.


No one cares about that crap here...I worked for cash for years...


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I think that the contractor should still provide all the power tools, but I cannot deny a clear trend toward the employees providing at least their own cordless drill. Sounds like you're working for one of those companies that wants you to provide your own cordless. Do I agree with that? No. Do I find it to be an unusual requirement? No, again. It's getting more and more common.
> 
> If you're considering buying any of your own power tools, at least have this conversation with your boss. "If I provide my own cordless drill, will you pay to have it fixed or replaced if it breaks"? If the answer is anything other than YES, don't get your own.



Again- I have not read beyond the 4th post- for reasons known to all.

Marc is correct.
This trend started in the late 80s',with the advent of the battery tools.
they started disappearing left and right.power tools were abused.
so the contractors,rather than throw good money after bad- rightfully so- decided to have the users buy their own.

This greatly reduced the abuse and loss of expensive and valuable equipment. Imagine that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now you must treat a tool as if you bought it !!!!!!!!!

If you wear it out- bring it to me. I will replace it.
If you lose it. Too Bad.

Tool theft has dropped dramatically.:whistling2:

I'm sure others can back this up.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Whoops!
> 
> I broke the law for 2 of my 3 years in the trade.


:laughing:

Up here you would have. Like I've said, the laws can be pretty different from state to state, province to province. Though usually the first time around the worker is given a warning and maybe a fine (never give the guy attitude) of a few hundred bucks if at all. Depends if there on a zero tolerance kick or not.

A company I was working for several years ago got hit by a surprise inspection and the MOL (Ministry of Labour) guy was demanding to see licenses. Two guys got caught and dinged $180 a piece but they gave the guy attitude. I forgot my wallet in my truck and rode up with another guy but I was a little more respectful with the guy and he said not to worry about it and fax it in the next day.

Playing nice with guys who can write tickets for hundreds of dollars at whim is always a good idea 

The reality is fair bit different than the law in open shops up here, things have gotten a lot better over the last 10 years since the ministry of labor nearly tripled the number of inspectors and the ESA (electrical safety authority) came into being. The government realized that instead of raising taxes, enforcing the laws already on the books could be extremely lucrative.

I was breaking the law myself when I got into the trade for almost as long as you before getting registered. Had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have stood for it, but that's why a lot of companies like having lots of helpers and apprentices and only keeping as few key people as possible. It was fairly common back then. People new to the trade who haven't gone to school or been around the block yet haven't had the opportunity to figure out what the rules and regulations are. A shady owner could break the rules and most guys would wonder but never know for sure, their inexperience made them much easier to exploit.

I've said it before hundreds of times to guys. You can't stand up for your rights if you don't know what they are. I've been exploited a couple times early on and was curious enough to go out and find the answers to my questions for myself and educated myself about our labor laws and safety regulations. Now I know that stuff and it can never happen again.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Mike_586 said:


> Um...wrong. For one thing the laws you're talking about aren't Canadian, just as in the US they aren't American. They fall under provincial and state control respectively. What's true in B.C. isn't necessarily even close to what its like in PEI and most likely isn't. Same goes for the US, what labor laws are like in Florida aren't even close to what they're like in NY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just a couple of exceptions Mike, anyone registered in a recognized training program such as co-op and oyap can work in the trade, and I know that the Toronto local has a pre-apprenticeship program that they run.


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

Mike_586 said:


> Um...wrong. For one thing the laws you're talking about aren't Canadian, just as in the US they aren't American. They fall under provincial and state control respectively. What's true in B.C. isn't necessarily even close to what its like in PEI and most likely isn't. Same goes for the US, what labor laws are like in Florida aren't even close to what they're like in NY.


Yes, sorry you are right. What i spoke of is in Alberta. I checked and it's all different, for example over time is payed after 48 hours in PEI, 44 hours in Alberta, and 44 in Ontario and 40 in Quebec. It's all different. :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Your whole entire posts proves my point.Just because you call someone an apprentice doesn't make it so.If your an "apprentice" in a merit shop that does not enroll in a state approved and/or recognized program then your not an apprentice.I hate to brake the news to you but I've worked open shop and know the difference between a helper and an apprentice.


To put it simply ...... you are wrong.

Each area can use the word apprentice however they want, they do not have to run it buy you first.

Can you post a definition of apprentice from a dictionary that backs up your limited view? 



> So like I said calling some one an apprentice doesn't make it so.


And as I said 'just cause you believe it' does not make it so.:no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Slick I just want to be sure, you are saying electricians that meet the following requirements are not in fact trained. :laughing:



> 13.05: Work Experience Required for Class B (Journeyman Electrician) License
> 
> (1) *An apprentice shall furnish documentary proof satisfactory to the Board of having completed electrical work experience totaling a minimum of 8000 clock hours over a period of no less than four years before making an application for examination.*
> 
> ...


And then there is the continuing education requirement for any of us with a license.



> 17.01: Requirements for Licensees
> 
> (1) Continuing Education Requirement.
> 
> ...


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Your whole entire posts proves my point.Just because you call someone an apprentice doesn't make it so.If your an "apprentice" in a merit shop that does not enroll in a state approved and/or recognized program then your not an apprentice.I hate to brake the news to you but I've worked open shop and know the difference between a helper and an apprentice.
> 
> While it is true that a helper can work in the trade for many,many years and become a competent "electrical installer" or "electrician" or what ever other title the merit contractor wishes to give them,the bottom line is with out formal education in an approved and recognized program you for all intents and purposes are not an apprentice.There are many other jobs out there besides IBEW hiring halls that require a recognized program *or equivalent training.*Hospitals,manufacturing,refineries,chemical plants,ship yards,train yards, these are all industries were many company's require approved training. From approved programs.So if someone spends there whole career with Joe Blow electric and never goes through at least the basic training and becomes licensed they are limiting themselves.So like I said calling some one an apprentice doesn't make it so.


Look...you wrote it!!! That is the answer......

*YOUR* location and the* IBEW* may require that to have the title 'apprentice' they must be in an approved program....but get over it..the rest of the real world does not necessarily operate that way!!!

Accept the fact that other states, municipalities, etc....have the right to see things differently, and have set their laws and regulations as they see fit....whether you like it or not...does not matter.Your state and local occupy a VERY small part of America....it does not dominate nor make the rules for everywhere else.......geeezz!!!!!

I posted the definition of apprentice here or in another thread...read it and learn.....


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

Thomps said:


> Just a couple of exceptions Mike, anyone registered in a recognized training program such as co-op and oyap can work in the trade, and I know that the Toronto local has a pre-apprenticeship program that they run.


Yeah there are some exceptions. 

I spent the last several months working at an OPG (Ontario Power Generation) plant and there were some co-op students there and we were talking about it with the plant supervisor. Technically speaking they shouldn't be doing any actual work. Mostly it has to do with safety regulations and liability issues.



kawimudslinger said:


> Yes, sorry you are right. What i spoke of is in Alberta. I checked and it's all different, for example over time is payed after 48 hours in PEI, 44 hours in Alberta, and 44 in Ontario and 40 in Quebec. It's all different. :blink:


Don't sweat it. The main reason I've always known is that I'm right on the border with Quebec and I know a lot of guys who travel so I've been told there are differences and I've had cause to look it up.

It would be nice if life were a little more simple.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Mike_586 said:


> Yeah there are some exceptions.
> 
> I spent the last several months working at an OPG (Ontario Power Generation) plant and there were some co-op students there and we were talking about it with the plant supervisor. Technically speaking they shouldn't be doing any actual work. Mostly it has to do with safety regulations and liability issues.



I would expect that was an OPG policy. The TQAA does recognize those students as persons who are authorized to work in the trade. 

I have seen some locations where they were allowed to be on site, but plant policies only allowed a limited Job description.


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## PORUS (Jan 23, 2010)

I got 2 drills and I'm not even an apprentice yet. I suggest you get yourself a drill.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Don't get a drill for work. stick to the tool list and the most used size spin tights/sockets and you will be fine.

I recomend the following:

3/8, 7/16/9/16 for sockets, wrenches and spintights
and a 3/4 wrench for 1/2 inch hardware.

Also you will definitely need two pairs of channelocks. I recomend the 420s and the 430s...........

personally I carry around a pair of 440's for 2" pipe work.

Get yourself a reamer attachment for a square shank screw driver as well so you dont need two seperate tools..........

everything else should be provided for you!


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Control Freak said:


> Don't get a drill for work. stick to the tool list and the most used size spin tights/sockets and you will be fine.
> 
> I recomend the following:
> 
> ...


So you think he shouldn't get a drill? The employer requires it. Tool list? Unless you are Union there isn't much of a tool list. You get what everyone else gets or you get down the road. I don't necesarily like it but that's the reality.


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## CEC_king (Mar 14, 2010)

If you like who you work for and extra tools will make you better at your job why wouldn't you buy them.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

I brought a new drill into work today and the other apprentices didn't have theirs, so of course I was asked if they could borrow the drill. I've only had light use from it so far but now their is a ring burned into the chuck where the drill was used to cut a hole in the floor. The screw hole was right next to a metal plate and the chuck hit against it, causing it to scrape through. I've hardly had the chance to use this drill and already this has happened. I could be laid off any day now because of work shortage so I don't think this whole providing my own drill thing is such a great idea.


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

I heard a story from my teacher about in his 1st year with his 1st drill. 

He was being a little too cautious with his new drill and the foreman was getting sick of it. So the foreman barrows his drill puts it on its side and uses his foot to drag it across asphalt. He waited 4 years for that guy to buy a new drill then did the same thing to it too.

You don't have to let them use your tools when they ask, but remember that when you need to do something and don't have the right tools they will do the same to you.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

tim123 said:


> I heard a story from my teacher about in his 1st year with his 1st drill.
> 
> He was being a little too cautious with his new drill and the foreman was getting sick of it. So the foreman barrows his drill puts it on its side and uses his foot to drag it across asphalt. He waited 4 years for that guy to buy a new drill then did the same thing to it too.
> 
> You don't have to let them use your tools when they ask, but remember that when you need to do something and don't have the right tools they will do the same to you.


Haha, thats funny. I believe though that if I bought the darn thing I should be the first one to put a smack on it, not someone else. I don't think he meant to do it, but I know some people don't care about other people's tools because they aren't the ones that bought it.


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

so what kind did you get? I'm guessing you have a plastic chuck? those always get shredded


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

tim123 said:


> so what kind did you get? I'm guessing you have a plastic chuck? those always get shredded


Yea, I have a Ryobi so I guess it's bottom of the line.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

electricnewf said:


> Yea, I have a Ryobi so I guess it's bottom of the line.


They aren't that bad. For the price and what you get, they are fine. Then again, I do mostly resi and some commercial...Not sure if they will hold up from heavy usage.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> They aren't that bad. For the price and what you get, they are fine. Then again, I do mostly resi and some commercial...Not sure if they will hold up from heavy usage.


Ryobi's, from my experience having owned two, s*ck; can't hold up to new construction at all, and service work they are still bad. Can't survive a 5 foot fall off a ladder. Dewalt or Milwaukee can.


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## tim123 (Feb 15, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Can't survive a 5 foot fall off a ladder. Dewalt or Milwaukee can.


An old company that I worked for got us a new dewalt and I dropped it off the ladder literally an hour after we got it... knocked the trigger off. Got a Milwaukee 5 pc kit for free and burned up the motor after drilling 5 holes with a unibit. Then I got that refurbished and I bought the hammer drill. The guy at the refurb shop was telling me how the hammer drill had an ocpd in it so when it locked up it trips.. the cheaper one didn't and that why it burned up so fast.

Anyways all things break when abused.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

true, the more money you spend the better drill you get; Rigid is good also.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> true, the more money you spend the better drill you get; Rigid is good also.


Home Depot has the Dewalt 18V XRP on sale this week for $199. Still expensive for my blood though. I got a Ryobi drill + flashlight and for the price they're pretty good. Guess my drill is going to take a beating the longer I'm using it. I definitely want a Dewalt XRP though. Someday


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

electricnewf said:


> Home Depot has the Dewalt 18V XRP on sale this week for $199. Still expensive for my blood though. I got a Ryobi drill + flashlight and for the price they're pretty good. Guess my drill is going to take a beating the longer I'm using it. I definitely want a Dewalt XRP though. Someday


Your ryobi will do fine for now, if you can save up for the dewalt, I would make the switch. I had a ryobi 18v drill for awhile and it just could not do the demanding jobs very well. I felt like it was holding me back, so I bought the dewalt kit.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I provide everything except hand tools.

All our cordless drills are hammer drills (about $300) as we seem to use this function often. They get beat up really bad and are expensive to repair. I wouldn't expect an employee to provide tools like this. Sawsalls are pretty sturdy as long as you keep the crap out of the end.

If you are required to supply your own cordless drill and sawsall, I don't think it's a huge deal. Seems like every mechanic would want to own those tools anyway. You will be usin up batteries at your expense so do some quick math and decide if it's worth the job.



> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well


You still use metallic sealtight? Is it required in your area? 

Non metallic sealtight is much easier to work with unless you have to push wire thru a long piece. You *can* cut metallic sealtight with a razor knife and strippers. Ring the plastic covering, break the flex *carefully* (like you would do with AL flex) and cut the metal flex part by putting your strippers inside the sealtight all the way to the cutters (just like you would do with Al flex).


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> Home Depot has the Dewalt 18V XRP on sale this week for $199. Someday


That's a damn good price. I have the XRP and have abused the hell out of it for three years and its still going strong. I love it. I hear alot of people having poor luck with Dewalt, but all my tools have been used and abused with no problems yet. My next purchase is the XRP Impact Drill. 

I think you will see the regular Dewalt XRP tools starting to get cheaper because the Lithium Ion XRP Cordless products are becoming more popular


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

220/221 said:


> You still use metallic sealtight? Is it required in your area?
> 
> Non metallic sealtight is much easier to work with unless you have to push wire thru a long piece.


I hated non metallic sealtite forever, but if you pull a gec, what's the big deal?
metallic sealtite IS tougher and can hold up to abuse which is why i still use it.


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## stryker21 (Jan 30, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> Home Depot has the Dewalt 18V XRP on sale this week for $199. Still expensive for my blood though. I got a Ryobi drill + flashlight and for the price they're pretty good. Guess my drill is going to take a beating the longer I'm using it. I definitely want a Dewalt XRP though. Someday


That's a great price. My wife got me the 12v Dewalt last year and I took it back to get the 18v XRP, I think it was 250$. I have no complaints about my XRP other than is not LI-ion.  

As far as flashlights go, I have a 2 watt LED that is lightweight, bright, and is no bigger than a 2AA maglite. I got it @ target for 5$ on clearence.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

I have been using the new milwaukee 18v lithium line since its been out, it is great. Its quite expensive but its worth it, coming with the 5 year warranty you cant beat that. I did have trouble with the 1.5ah lithiums when they first came out 4 years ago, but they exchanged them on warranty no questions asked. I would never buy any thing other then a milwaukee now. The new 12 volt line is amazing also, the inspection camera is very handy. Dont mess around with cheap tools like ryobi you will have to buy it 5 times before you wreck a milwaukee.


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## hardscrabble (Feb 19, 2010)

Take the plunge and buy some tools then you will be hooked like the rest of us. I love the smell of a new tool in the morning


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

My personal opinion is that a cordless drill would be a part of an attire that you're supposed to provide on your own just as managers are expected to pay for their own suits. 

I don't go out and get dirty... but from managerial point of view, I would rather have the company be in control of critical tools. 

Anything related to safety, including clothing should be provided by the company for liability reasons. I don't want to have to deal with claims because someone used some cheap steel toed boots, safety goggles, etc from Wal-Mart that does not meet OSHA requirements. 

Tools that require calibration or proper maintenance. I'd rather have a control over quality and calibration of these items and not deal with quality and inconsistency issues that follow employee tools that are out of calibration or not maintained right (torque wrench, refrigerant charge scale, vacuum pump, etc)


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## DaveZeki (Dec 10, 2009)

One word.....HILTI......WOOT SFH 144-A


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

hardscrabble said:


> Take the plunge and buy some tools then you will be hooked like the rest of us. I love the smell of a new tool in the morning


 Sounds like a fetish.:laughing::laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I like to rub oil all over my new hand tools.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

DaveZeki said:


> One word.....HILTI......WOOT SFH 144-A



I was looking at some Hilti's today. Dont know the model #. The 18 V cordless seemed awsome. They had a test set up with 4 stacked 2X something. I drilled about 20 1" holes with an auger bit like it was a hole hawg. The guy said I could drill out a house with the 2 batteries that came with the set. He said he would come out and let my guys demo it for 1 house if I would buy it if it would drill out the hole house with just 2 batteries. Im thinking of taking him up on that.


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## Schultz134 (Jul 25, 2010)

In my experience the Hilti cordless drill aren't much to be wow'ed by. I had one while I was working for a company a little over a year back and the hammer feature was pretty weak when drilling into cinder and concrete. I prefer my Milwaukee M18 I have, but at work we use the DeWalt XRP's and those are nice too.


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## michael3 (Mar 14, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Best all around deal is probably this Porter Cable hammer drill
> 
> $150 at Rona


this is what i have for larger stuff...... I use this to bore a 1/2 to 1 inch hole in house foundation to run UF through for a outlet or disconnect. Or what ever the job calls for.

I like this drill but I love my Bosch baby drill 10.6 volt. I run tech screws (5/16 drill tip screws) with that little gun. It is also perfect for running tap cons in after the hole is made with the porter cable.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

drsparky said:


> I agree with Marc power tools should be provided by contractors. What's the next item that becomes a trend for employees to provide?


Next we'll have to provide our own cargo van. LOL.


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Next we'll have to provide our own cargo van. LOL.


Grats for resurrecting a thread with last activity over 3 months ago.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I already had a pretty good assortment of Dewalt 18v stuff back when I had a white collar career and sat in a cube farm all day. On top of that I had a rollaway packed with mechanics tools that I started buying when I was 14.

You can get an 18 v Dewalt hammer drill / recip. saw combo for around $300. As for batteries, if you need more, look for the sales at big box stores. Sometimes they are $99 a pair. Be sure to permanently mark the batteries so they don't walk away.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> Next we'll have to provide our own cargo van. LOL.


I had one back in the mid 90's . Employers would pay me extra to use my own truck.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

electricnewf said:


> I tried cutting liquidtight flex with a hacksaw. Didn't turn out so well :laughing:


Turn your hacksaw around and cut it with the blade's teeth facing the opposite direction. Works like a charm


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## Jamie (Dec 26, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I went through a non union state accredited apprentice program...? And I can wire circles around any union cat.......na na.. na... na... na na :laughing:


Same here


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I can see this thread degrading into a union v. merit-shop debate over what tools should be provided.:whistling2:


Power tools have always been the contractors responsibility. Cordless drills and sawzalls are to be supplied by the worker, your kidding,.....right?


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

Jamie said:


> Same here


yeah sure


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## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

jusme123 said:


> Power tools have always been the contractors responsibility. Cordless drills and sawzalls are to be supplied by the worker, your kidding,.....right?


Basic hand tools make up the tool list of most locals. You'll very rarely if ever find a cordless drill on the tool list, although I would vote on it, I'd rather use my own. As for a sawzall, I don't think they are used nearly as often in union (usually commercial) work. You'd be better off requiring a Portaband.


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

StarLo said:


> Basic hand tools make up the tool list of most locals. You'll very rarely if ever find a cordless drill on the tool list, although *I would vote on it*, I'd rather use my own. As for a sawzall, I don't think they are used nearly as often in union (usually commercial) work. You'd be better off requiring a Portaband.


...first it would be cordless drills, than sawzall, than hand bender, ......no end. What if YOU leave your drill out during break and it gets stolen, or you accidentally drop it off a 6' ladder, is the contractor responsible to replace? Contractor should supply ALL tools other than standard electrician hand tools. IMHO


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