# High time



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I am the steward on the job. Our contract still has high time in our contract for our agrEement. This is the first time that I have been appointed to this position. One of the apprentices on the job,( that has been working at this mill steady) was assigned a job to work on the rail crane trolley to change lamps. Before I was there, they installed these lights and now are already replacing lamps. The original install didn't pay high time cause the regular mill maintenance steadies never asked for it. Being the steward, I went in before time was turned in on Friday and asked for high time for the men working on it. Boss man said( the mill doesn't pay contractors high time. What am I supposed to do? Ask the owner to lose money to put a guy up there? I said yes, but took the high road and said I would rather as well do it safely with a scaffold attached to the crane rail . Anyone got any useful input on the matter?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

cl219um said:


> I am the steward on the job. Our contract still has high time in our contract for our agrEement. This is the first time that I have been appointed to this position. One of the apprentices on the job,( that has been working at this mill steady) was assigned a job to work on the rail crane trolley to change lamps. Before I was there, they installed these lights and now are already replacing lamps. The original install didn't pay high time cause the regular mill maintenance steadies never asked for it. Being the steward, I went in before time was turned in on Friday and asked for high time for the men working on it. Boss man said( the mill doesn't pay contractors high time. What am I supposed to do? Ask the owner to lose money to put a guy up there? I said yes, but took the high road and said I would rather as well do it safely with a scaffold attached to the crane rail . Anyone got any useful input on the matter?



Can you use a bucket truck to reach the lights?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Can you use a bucket truck to reach the lights?


no. its inside the mill above the supercalender.


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## rufusTfirefly (Jul 19, 2013)

Is he violating the contract by refusing to pay it? Probably should get the Business Manager involved.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

This is my first time out at this mill. It does rock the boat against the contract. High time usually is a sticky subject. The guy in charge for us at the mill has been there since he topped out twenty-some years ago. He has only worked with the tools for probably three years after he topped out. Kinda out of touch with field work besides doing the paperwork for it. Our local has lost a pile during the last negotiations. It kind of sucks that I am making a huge stand by myself against them. Was kind of hoping for support from some brothers out there. Lots of views on this subject, just no replies of any kind.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> Lots of views on this subject, just no replies of any kind.


Not a lot of info to go on - we don't know what you know.

If your CBA describes the work as high time, then you ought to pursue it. If it is questionable, ask an agent.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

When i told the supervisor that it should be premium pay to work 30' above he laughed. He said " what is he gonna get an extra three dollars on his check for the hour he was up there?" I said no. He was up there for five hours. An extra $15 dollars. He had a chuckle. By himself btw. Times are tight. 15 bucks is like two pounds of lunch meat. Regardless, it's in our contract. The con knows it as well as the mill. Not like I am trying to break the contractor with a disability lawsuit. Want what is deserving.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

If your CBA supports it, insist the men get it. Gently but firmly. Explain to him he can either pay high time, 

or make it so they are not going up that high. 
or he can assign a journeyman to do the job at his higher rate of pay.

Just do it gently and nicely. Most folks don't care about the extra couple of dollars in pay, they just don't like to be told they are wrong or being forced. 

You might want to bring it up more like it is your problem and he can help you solve it...make him the hero and your men get the money.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cl219um said:


> ... just no replies of any kind.


Check your PMs....


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

fftopic:

Getting back on topic here.....





cl219um said:


> no. its inside the mill above the supercalender.


WTF is a supercalender?

:laughing:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

It's a big ass rewinder that rewinds paper when it comes out of paper machine.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

The mill is in no way responsible to the EC for 'high time.'

All this over a few bucks? Give me a break.

Try working non-union in your jurisdiction. Wonder how much their package is. Like half?

And you the steward no less, are stepping up for a shoppee, who you know good and well is washing balls at the mill to keep his job. We're supposed to share the work, not hog all the time at the mill and never leave it.

Are you a company steward?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mr hands said:


> And you the steward no less, are stepping up for a shoppee...


That is the job.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

cl219um said:


> I am the steward on the job. Our contract still has high time in our contract for our agrEement. This is the first time that I have been appointed to this position. One of the apprentices on the job,( that has been working at this mill steady) was assigned a job to work on the rail crane trolley to change lamps. Before I was there, they installed these lights and now are already replacing lamps. The original install didn't pay high time cause the regular mill maintenance steadies never asked for it. Being the steward, I went in before time was turned in on Friday and asked for high time for the men working on it. Boss man said( the mill doesn't pay contractors high time. What am I supposed to do? Ask the owner to lose money to put a guy up there? I said yes, but took the high road and said I would rather as well do it safely with a scaffold attached to the crane rail . Anyone got any useful input on the matter?


Tell the BA. Then it's HIS issue.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

From the title I thought this thread was going to be about something completely different. :laughing:


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

mr hands said:


> The mill is in no way responsible to the EC for 'high time.'
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> ...


Good Lord Mr hands, you sound like you are one of those travelers that like going from job to job to stir up crap. "shoppee, washing balls" ??? I thought Union was a brotherhood and not go down to a childs level and call names and bad mouth someone for having a job.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Are you sure you are not under a maintenance contract? Many locals have both, and usually things like high time go away in the maintenance agreement.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Are you sure you are not under a maintenance contract? Many locals have both, and usually things like high time go away in the maintenance agreement.


No nma. Called ba yesterday. Waiting for Thursday to see if they are going to pay.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

mr hands said:


> The mill is in no way responsible to the EC for 'high time.'
> 
> All this over a few bucks? Give me a break.
> 
> ...


Listen here. I have worked with stewards who seemed to be only in this position for a perpetual job with overtime till the job ended. As for what you call a ball washer, the man who did the work is an apprentice who has only seen it done by a shop rocket. I sincerely don't think he knew any better to ask for high time before. He has never heard of it till now. I showed him the right way to run conduit and he has been at the mill for pretty much his four years of school so far. Kind of a shame that he has only worked with a few newbie Jman. Has been the only place for guys to work lately. Trust me. This guy would rather be anywhere but the mill. Fifth year journeyman should see more than one paper machine throughout their apprenticeship. It has been till now that he has been on anything but maintanance till now where they have been hiring out of the hall for workers.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mr hands said:


> We're supposed to share the work, not hog all the time at the mill and never leave it.


I'm sorry. I do not recall that rule. Please explain.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

it sure is high time.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> If your CBA supports it, insist the men get it. Gently but firmly. Explain to him he can either pay high time,
> 
> or make it so they are not going up that high.
> or he can assign a journeyman to do the job at his higher rate of pay.
> ...


So after all is over, do I tell him" maybe next time,cause if he does it a better way?, there is no need for anyone to take risks like that". I told him that being caught up in a harness is not a laughing matter. They make harnesses that have a drop out strap for your heals. It's very painfull to hang from a full body harness. 40' above the floor? Maybe I should ask him to be a test subject to see how the rescue team at the mill would deal with it.we don't have these harnesses at the mill btw. Most are bought from an auction from larger contractor in the area. Sun has rotted them half to death and the lanyards that are supposed to have elastic in them are stretched back and forth so much that they have no return.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cl219um said:


> Most are bought from an auction from larger contractor in the area. Sun has rotted them half to death and the lanyards that are supposed to have elastic in them are stretched back and forth so much that they have no return.


There is no way I would take on the liability and responsibility of those crap harnesses for my men or myself.

I wouldn't be using them at all...no way...no how.:no:


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I spend alot of time in a harness with a lanyard and yoyo.

No doubt the company has a safety officer onsite at the mill. It is his job to tell you what you need to be doing to negate the risk, end of story.

Alot of big sites also have pretask plans for stuff like that, fill one out and follow it.

As for rotating the work, it is an unspoken obligation to go back to the hall after the big job is done. If it's pissant strip mall TI's and and renovations that make up the bulk of the work, then not so.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

What I see here is a bunch of crying over peanuts!!! Unions are loosing market share, you know it and I know it, and this is WHY!!! I did my apprenticeship union, and then started my own company. From a business standpoint, I cannot justify becoming signatory. Cant do it, to risky. Your old time rules and obligations are what are ruining you. Change with the times of perish, simple as that.

I would like to be signatory, but I am not tying my life savings (company) to your rules and obligations that I have watched wreck several small contractors in my area. 

Something to chew on fellas.....


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

You didn't have a problem using their training. I wish you were in my area, we would have fun with you.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> You didn't have a problem using their training. I wish you were in my area, we would have fun with you.


He told you the truth and as long as you and your brothers decide to ignore it and fight it you will continue to lose market share which is bad for all of us.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Were changing daily. No sounds like a scum bag. When he was working union, things were fine, now he owns the biz and were no good.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Being signatory, you have to worry about 2 things. Paying the rate and paying the bennies on time. Other than that business as usual.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> He told you the truth and as long as you and your brothers decide to ignore it and fight it you will continue to lose market share which is bad for all of us.


funny you preach safety a lot. The op just wants to be paid for high time, which may or may not be in the agreement. He also wants good equipment, nothing wrong with either.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> funny you preach safety a lot. The op just wants to be paid for high time, which may or may not be in the agreement. He also wants good equipment, nothing wrong with either.


How does getting paid extra to do high work make someone safer. I'm failing to see the connection between safety and getting paid more.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> How does getting paid extra to do high work make someone safer. I'm failing to see the connection between safety and getting paid more.


I wouldn't expect you to.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> How does getting paid extra to do high work make someone safer. I'm failing to see the connection between safety and getting paid more.


It's like getting paid 10% night work differential,,, the extra $$$ let's you see better in the dark.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I wouldn't expect you to.


Right, because it's bullsh!t. It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with the thought that it's scary to work up high, so they feel they are entitled to extra pay. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. Just be honest. There's no need to bring the buzz word "safety" into the conversation. It seems like everyone thinks if they just mention the word safety, then no one will question anything. No matter the cost, it's for safety so it's worth it. This has nothing to do with safety, it has everything to do with the guys putting more money in their pocket.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

loose neutral.....jack, you don't know me. I was told the IBEW was the best way to go....so I did. 

From day one my plan was to someday have my own company.

I quickly figured out that it is not a perfect system, and will not really work for the small contractor. I worked for several small outfits during my apprenticeship, and watched two of them fall.

If there were a few changes made, I would be more apt to sign on. But the way things are there is no way.

Who says that while I was working things were fine? 

You don't know me, when I had three guys working, they were making more across the board than the guys at the hall.

Instead of listening, you spout the typical rhetoric that has got the IBEW where it is today.

The principal of the IBEW is great, and I believe in it.....but

1) Not all jw's are worth the same pay
2) the ibew has become a business of supporting fat cats, not the working man
3) The training is not any better than anything else out there. 
4) Most ibew jw's are not a really competent electrician. more like installers. Many don't have a good theory knowledge.
5) There is to much of "us against them" in the hall

Oh, its great to see that union thugery show through...."if you were in my area we would have fun with you". 

Yep, business as usual alright..........change or die:whistling2:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Right, because it's bullsh!t. It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with the thought that it's scary to work up high, so they feel they are entitled to extra pay. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. Just be honest. There's no need to bring the buzz word "safety" into the conversation. It seems like everyone thinks if they just mention the word safety, then no one will question anything. No matter the cost, it's for safety so it's worth it. This has nothing to do with safety, it has everything to do with the guys putting more money in their pocket.


It's not entitlement, its in the contract, which the contractor is part of. Its called an agreement cause labor and management both agree. The safety comes into play cause the op brought it up.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> loose neutral.....jack, you don't know me. I was told the IBEW was the best way to go....so I did. Yup and you don't me
> 
> From day one my plan was to someday have my own company.
> And
> ...


And you don't know me. No system is perfect, your local is better off without you.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mr hands said:


> I spend alot of time in a harness with a lanyard and yoyo.


I hope you are not wearing a lanyard AND a yoyo at the same time :no:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Who's afraid of heights?





























...probably close to 200' up.....
in a manbasket....
highway on one side [behind the trees within 20' is an overpass]
HV switch yard on the other [in the foreground within 20' is the yard, 60' to 138kv OH lines]
To the right is the street with 5kv lines [could be 13kv? ]...
To the left is the cell tower yard and senior community center

Very tight.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If it's in the contract, the EC should pay it. What does the customer have to do with it. The EC made an agreement with the union. I would expect the union to up hold their agreements, why shouldn't the EC.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

At least in our local high time is high time because of the climbing, not the height. I have worked on the edge of a 900' building, walking steel, no high time. Climbed a 300' water tower - high time. 

I find it comical that anyone would begrudge a couple of bucks an hour for that kind of effort. Sad and comical.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> What I see here is a bunch of crying over peanuts!!! Unions are loosing market share, you know it and I know it, and this is WHY!!! I did my apprenticeship union, and then started my own company. From a business standpoint, I cannot justify becoming signatory. Cant do it, to risky. Your old time rules and obligations are what are ruining you. Change with the times of perish, simple as that.
> 
> I would like to be signatory, but I am not tying my life savings (company) to your rules and obligations that I have watched wreck several small contractors in my area.
> 
> Something to chew on fellas.....


Do you do any large work where your safety records even matter? High time is in there as a tool for the contractor to do work in odd situations safely. OSHA probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for brothers watching each others back... It's all obout watching out for each other. Have you worked on anything besides someone's attic. You could sprain or break an ankle up there.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

*I was in a 189' jog couple years ago. I ho*



Celtic said:


> Who's afraid of heights?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was in a 189' jlg couple years ago. Beside it being rated for 24 mph and I came down and said screw it during 22mph gusts it was thrilling. Proud to do things many have not. Did I ask for high time? No. I was on an approved platform. Farmer doesn't know me either..


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

430' bridge work, 300' stack work at the refinery! Love it.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

BBQ said:


> He told you the truth and as long as you and your brothers decide to ignore it and fight it you will continue to lose market share which is bad for all of us.


The ONLY reason market share is lost, is because the non-union package pays less. END OF STORY. It's not just what's on the check, its alot of retirement and health plan money too.

I don't pay out of my check for bennies. Do you? How much is your healthnet? $150 a week to cover your family? In all fairness, it comes out before taxes so it doesn't hurt that bad, but still.......


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> I find it comical that anyone would begrudge a couple of bucks an hour for that kind of effort. Sad and comical.


Laugh it up Highboy. Sometimes the couple extra bucks isn't worth the scrabble to get it. Besides, these shoppees get paid a whole hell of a lot more often. They kiss well, and not on the lips.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

High time = danger pay?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

mr hands said:


> The ONLY reason market share is lost, is because the non-union package pays less. END OF STORY. It's not just what's on the check, its alot of retirement and health plan money too.


That is *one* of the reasons. It is not the *only* reason. 

If you think that is the only reason the union is hurting for work, you need to step back and take a good, hard, honest look at the union and it's many issues. There are other reasons besides cost that causes customers to avoid the union trades for their projects.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Like what?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> That is *one* of the reasons. It is not the *only* reason.
> 
> If you think that is the only reason the union is hurting for work, you need to step back and take a good, hard, honest look at the union and it's many issues. There are other reasons besides cost that causes customers to avoid the union trades for their projects.


Not really. It's the bean counters, pure and simple.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

cl219um said:


> I am the steward on the job. Our contract still has high time in our contract for our agrEement. This is the first time that I have been appointed to this position. One of the apprentices on the job,( that has been working at this mill steady) was assigned a job to work on the rail crane trolley to change lamps. Before I was there, they installed these lights and now are already replacing lamps. The original install didn't pay high time cause the regular mill maintenance steadies never asked for it. Being the steward, I went in before time was turned in on Friday and asked for high time for the men working on it. Boss man said( the mill doesn't pay contractors high time. What am I supposed to do? Ask the owner to lose money to put a guy up there? I said yes, but took the high road and said I would rather as well do it safely with a scaffold attached to the crane rail . Anyone got any useful input on the matter?


Our high time is a dollar.
Who cares, let him go an hour early or hand him $10.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Being signatory, you have to worry about 2 things. Paying the rate and paying the bennies on time. Other than that business as usual.


That statement is far from the truth.Yes you have to pay the rate, yes you have to pay the bennies BUT YOU ALSO have to worry about what tools the guys use that they own, god forbid a worker likes using his cordless saw and brings it to work, you have have to worry about the union/hall sending you guys when you put a call in, you have to worry about the guys they do send if they are qualified to even be called a JW. There is more but I think you get the drift that there are way more then 2 things you have to worry about.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> That statement is far from the truth.Yes you have to pay the rate, yes you have to pay the bennies BUT YOU ALSO have to worry about what tools the guys use that they own, god forbid a worker likes using his cordless saw and brings it to work, you have have to worry about the union/hall sending you guys when you put a call in, you have to worry about the guys they do send if they are qualified to even be called a JW. There is more but I think you get the drift that there are way more then 2 things you have to worry about.


Men supply hand tools and contractors have the right to refusal. Simple.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like what?


Like just this week the union called the town mayor threatening to stop government contracts because my employer is doing work at what they call a union site. It is not union by any means. Now the client has said after the contract is up with them they will most likely never use the union again.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

pudge565 said:


> Like just this week the union called the town mayor threatening to stop government contracts because my employer is doing work at what they call a union site. It is not union by any means. Now the client has said after the contract is up with them they will most likely never use the union again.


You're wasting your time explaining, that's why I haven't bothered to respond. Guys like this are the biggest problem the union has. They think everything is fine with the union and any problems are someone else's fault (ie. Those evil non union companies who pay less causing the union to lose market share). They refuse to acknowledge that unions in general (not just the IBEW) have a huge PR problem due in part to the tactics they apply towards non union workers and the public in general. If you want to see an example of the unions public perception problem in this area, just look up The Big Dig project in Boston. Cost over runs, missed deadlines, rampant union corruption, kickbacks, payoffs, milking the clock in epic proportions. This project is just one example of many that turned the tide of pubic opinion against the unions.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> You're wasting your time explaining, that's why I haven't bothered to respond. Guys like this are the biggest problem the union has. They think everything is fine with the union and any problems are someone else's fault (ie. Those evil non union companies who pay less causing the union to lose market share). They refuse to acknowledge that unions in general (not just the IBEW) have a huge PR problem due in part to the tactics they apply towards non union workers and the public in general. If you want to see an example of the unions public perception problem in this area, just look up The Big Dig project in Boston. Cost over runs, missed deadlines, rampant union corruption, kickbacks, payoffs, milking the clock in epic proportions. This project is just one example of many that turned the tide of pubic opinion against the unions.


The real problem is you. The real problem is your just a hater. I'm not the problem. I go to work every day, bust my ass and try to make my company money and they do. Be honest, you got rejected and now your just a crybaby.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> The real problem is you. The real problem is your just a hater. I'm not the problem. I go to work every day, bust my ass and try to make my company money and they do. Be honest, you got rejected and now your just a crybaby.


Keep your head buried in the sand, that's fine. The more guys that think like you, the faster the union dies and I'm good with that. 

You're right, I am a union hater. However, I have never been rejected by the union as I've never been interested in joining. I fell into this trade by accident and didn't even know what the IBEW was when I first started, or that they even existed. It didn't take me long to find out though. I have had plenty of interaction with the union/unions throughout my career and it has always been a negative experience. I learned early in my career that I do not ever want to be associated with a union. Any union. Unions continue to lose membership and market share and I couldn't be happier. If you don't think there is a problem, that's fine. Don't change a thing. The IBEW can't disappear fast enough as far as I'm concerned.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> Like just this week the union called the town mayor threatening to stop government contracts because my employer is doing work at what they call a union site. It is not union by any means. Now the client has said after the contract is up with them they will most likely never use the union again.


So what's the problem? Why do you hate phone calls?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

You make a lot of assumptions. Your whole argument is you think that I play by the old game and that is the furthest thing from the truth. We continually change and modify to market conditions. I think your the one with your head buried somewhere, its probably up your own ass.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Keep your head buried in the sand, that's fine. The more guys that think like you, the faster the union dies and I'm good with that.
> 
> You're right, I am a union hater. However, I have never been rejected by the union as I've never been interested in joining. I fell into this trade by accident and didn't even know what the IBEW was when I first started, or that they even existed. It didn't take me long to find out though. I have had plenty of interaction with the union/unions throughout my career and it has always been a negative experience. I learned early in my career that I do not ever want to be associated with a union. Any union. Unions continue to lose membership and market share and I couldn't be happier. If you don't think there is a problem, that's fine. Don't change a thing. The IBEW can't disappear fast enough as fast as I'm concerned.


See post 59


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Men supply hand tools and contractors have the right to refusal. Simple.


Simple on your side when you are not the one needing men NOW or your going to get charges. And when they do not have people to send (which is their part of the bargain) and they say oooohhhhhhh just hire anybody off the street. So maybe in your simple life but not on the business side.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> You make a lot of assumptions. Your whole argument is you think that I play by the old game and that is the furthest thing from the truth. We continually change and modify to market conditions. I think your the one with your head buried somewhere, its probably up your own ass.


This comment of yours below shows you are old school union




Loose Neutral said:


> I wish you were in my area, we would have fun with you.



*Now why would customers avoid the union?*

We were doing a large mixed job, both union and merit shop contractors. Things were going fine between the union and merit shop guys. But there were problems between the carpenters union and the laborers union. They were fighting over whose job it was to unload trucks full of mill work, this dragged on and on delaying the job, resulted in vandalism to the building etc. 

If you were paying for this building would you be impressed?

Many other mixed jobs, union pickets at the entrance spewing BS about how unfair the GC or customer is for not hiring all union.

This often results in the added expense of a two gate system and paid cops to stand at the gates.

Again, do you think this impresses the customers? You know those people that actully pay us to do our jobs.

So keep thinking it is only about the fact merit shops cost less but that is far from the only reason, it is just one of the reasons.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

HackWork said:


> So what's the problem? Why do you hate phone calls?


The problem is my employer was hired to do a job by a company, a union contractor is doing work at the same facility but a totally different project. They are asshurt because they lost the bid (actually not because their price was higher theu were lower but because we are certified installers which brings with it a 15 year warranty) and now are getting their poltical buddies involved to try and get the work anyway.

Not that I care I'm working illegally so if it gets shut down just one less thing for me to worry about. It is kind of funny because my employer wants us to get all material we aren't using back to the shop. I think they are setting up for a quick pull out. They are sweating bullets, I bet because they know the work they are doing is illegal.

So in summary I am split on the subject, I see the union as being right because we are an illegal contractor, but I don't agree with their tactics. The client doesn't like the union now either.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> This comment of yours below shows you are old school union
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rare I've been on jobs that the non union F'd it up. **** happens.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> The problem is my employer was hired to do a job by a company, a union contractor is doing work at the same facility but a totally different project. They are asshurt because they lost the bid (actually not because their price was higher theu were lower but because we are certified installers which brings with it a 15 year warranty) and now are getting their poltical buddies involved to try and get the work anyway.
> 
> Not that I care I'm working illegally so if it gets shut down just one less thing for me to worry about. It is kind of funny because my employer wants us to get all material we aren't using back to the shop. I think they are setting up for a quick pull out. They are sweating bullets, I bet because they know the work they are doing is illegal.
> 
> So in summary I am split on the subject, I see the union as being right because we are an illegal contractor, but I don't agree with their tactics. The client doesn't like the union now either.


please elaborate on the working illegal part. Is the client Gov?


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> please elaborate on the working illegal part. Is the client Gov?


Client is not government, my employer fails to hold a business permit for this state, also no licensed JM on site, although since we are doing a fiber project I don't think the no JM is an issue. However we did wire the data center with no licensed (in this state) JM.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> Client is not government, my employer fails to hold a business permit for this state, also no licensed JM on site, although since we are doing a fiber project I don't think the no JM is an issue. However we did wire the data center with no licensed (in this state) JM.


So your an out of town contractor working in the state illegally and the local union calls a d complains and they are the bad guy? Now that I dont understand.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

By the way, standby for eejack or brother Noah to tell me the things I have seen first hand did not happen and do not happen but if they did happen there were good reasons for it. :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> Simple on your side when you are not the one needing men NOW or your going to get charges. And when they do not have people to send (which is their part of the bargain) and they say oooohhhhhhh just hire anybody off the street. So maybe in your simple life but not on the business side.


I find that hard to believe.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> So your an out of town contractor working in the state illegally and the local union calls a d complains and they are the bad guy? Now that I dont understand.


In addition, this whole story about the mayor being called is just gossip by biased parties.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> So your an out of town contractor working in the state illegally and the local union calls a d complains and they are the bad guy? Now that I dont understand.


I am going to have to agree with you on that one.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

HackWork said:


> In addition, this whole story about the mayor being called is just gossip by biased parties.


Says who? The client told us of this after they got a call from city hall.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> So your an out of town contractor working in the state illegally and the local union calls a d complains and they are the bad guy? Now that I dont understand.


That's why I said I'm split, one hand I agree, but on the other I'm just trying to make a living. I don't agree with then calling the mayor though, call the proper authorites that govern it.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I find that hard to believe.


What do you find hard to believe? Everything I said above is true


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I am going to have to agree with you on that one.


Me too


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> What do you find hard to believe? Everything I said above is true


construction has been slow, so plenty of hands out there and no local wants you to hire off the street.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> construction has been slow, so plenty of hands out there and no local wants you to hire off the street.


It is obvious that you do not know as much about all the locals as you think you do because that is what is told here.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> It is obvious that you do not know as much about all the locals as you think you do because that is what is told here.


I never said I knew about all locals. I know the general market though. I also know that no local wants you to hire off the street. Has to be more to it.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I never said I knew about all locals. I know the general market though. I also know that no local wants you to hire off the street. Has to be more to it.


No more to it, we are in a different town then the hall is and everyone would rather sit and draw unemployment then come here, we have better luck (not very much but when we do get someone to show up) from out of state JW's then locals. And many would consider us VERY easy to work for.It has been like this for about the last 7 -8 years. We have turned down ALOT of work because we know we can not man it.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> No more to it, we are in a different town then the hall is and everyone would rather sit and draw unemployment then come here, we have better luck (not very much but when we do get someone to show up) from out of state JW's then locals. And many would consider us VERY easy to work for.It has been like this for about the last 7 -8 years. We have turned down ALOT of work because we know we can not man it.


Well that's a shame.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

pudge565 said:


> Like just this week the union called the town mayor threatening to stop government contracts because my employer is doing work at what they call a union site. It is not union by any means. Now the client has said after the contract is up with them they will most likely never use the union again.


I had not read the part where you are working illegally.

LOL.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> By the way, standby for eejack or brother Noah to tell me the things I have seen first hand did not happen and do not happen but if they did happen there were good reasons for it. :laughing:


They did not happen or there were good reasons for it.

:thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BDB said:


> Simple on your side when you are not the one needing men NOW or your going to get charges. And when they do not have people to send (which is their part of the bargain) and they say oooohhhhhhh just hire anybody off the street. So maybe in your simple life but not on the business side.


I can understand that in Texas. You folks hate unions so much that none of us wants to work down there for $25 an hour when we can work elsewhere for more.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> Unions continue to lose membership and market share and I couldn't be happier. If you don't think there is a problem, that's fine. Don't change a thing. The IBEW can't disappear fast enough as far as I'm concerned.



It's actually gotten so bad that they are now resorting to mass mailings of letters to all licensed electricians in my state, encouraging them to check out the IBEW. I have received two of these form letters from them in the last year or so. To summarize, it was basically this: "You may have negative perceptions about the union because of past indiscretions, but that's all in the past now and won't you please check us out because we are desperate for new members!"

Can you guess where I put those letters? :laughing:


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

If you do not have an interest in the firm you are working for (financial interest meaning owner/partner/shareholder), I see absolutely no advantage in NOT being unionized. Union workers have real bargaining power, while non-union workers can really only hope to get fired/quit/or sue if they have a grievance with an employer. A lawsuit may cost $100,000 and take 5 years to reach a conclusion. Plus union workers are compensated more in both base pay (even after dues) and fringe benefits. I'm not saying that unions are by any means perfect or without serious problems, but being union is better than being non-union for workers.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Well obviously the ground goes down on a receptacle and pipe is better than SEE cable.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

The union puts old timers to work. Often times for a steady stretch.

The merit shops jettison geezers at the first sign of an imperial star destroyer.

Just sayin, if you want to burn your life at both ends running your own merit shop, go for it. Running your own show or sucking up davis-bacon is the only way to make good coin working non-union. But if you're an electrician who can take his lumps here and there and work a regional area, union is the way to go. I love having chunks of time off here and there. It gives me more time with the family. Go for your rut, you can have it. I believe we do take care of our own, and it's a club worth joining. No need to be related in these parts, its one big dysfunctional family with more organized hands than not. There's been a couple times when I needed serious medical care for my family and thanked the Lord for my generous health package. Even after five months of hit and miss work, I still had bennies and monies due to the flex savings account... it saved me a great burden when my son needed $7k worth of dental surgeries. $150 out of pocket. Seriously, that's brotherhood.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I could join you one-man shows at the pull of a string. I got a van, worked service four years in company vans, done plenty of 'practice' work, have all the tools and ready materials for a light commercial / resi service setup.

My initial stretch is doing 1099 sub work for my non-union small-ec buddies at 60 an hour. That being said, cash is king for myself. That 60 is just for reporting on their ends. Remodel GC's around here do alot of T&M and construction management of subs for their scope on high end jobs. They be taking cash from the owner for changes and what not and pay the subs in cash too. Yall obama haters are in on the cash side of business because you want to strangle the gubbamint. But you'll never copt to it, (standing by for fictional response about how yalls pay taxes on every last dime of revenue.)


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Miller is back.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> This comment of yours below shows you are old school union
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> *Not really it just shows that I care where my money goes. *You have a guy that is trained with union money and then he goes and works against you? That's not old school mentality, that's just being real.




The company I started with spent a lot of time and money training me. I came into the trade knowing absolutely nothing. They taught me pretty much everything I know as well as paying for my schooling to get my license. I worked for them for 8 years and now I work for one of their biggest competitors. That's business. Get over it.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Just because a company trains someone well does not mean they equally treat him as well or compensate him as well.

To sweat shops, the training serves to fatten the bottom line. IF they train a man, they will crack whip on him too. To the contrary, sweat shops I been at do not train their men, because the foremen do not want competition.

As the owner of the resi sweat shop I worked for once told me, "Get em young and use em up." That guy was a real POS. A convict too, he was a convicted child molestor. He was also trained up the union way then went rogue. Not saying there was a connection between him molesting his own children and opening a non-union shop, I will let you come to your own conclusion.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> The company I started with spent a lot of time and money training me. I came into the trade knowing absolutely nothing. They taught me pretty much everything I know as well as paying for my schooling to get my license. I worked for them for 8 years and now I work for one of their biggest competitors. That's business. Get over it.


I'm sure they were ok with it. Right **** happens, but not going to let it go without some words. Oh and i thought you weren't responding to my posts?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Our high time is a dollar.
> Who cares, let him go an hour early or hand him $10.


That's a risk in itself. If he is on the clock and gets in an accident, it's a lawsuit in the making. Anyhow, we brass in. The mill pays him till he brasses out. Not gonna work.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

eejack said:


> I can understand that in Texas. You folks hate unions so much that none of us wants to work down there for $25 an hour when we can work elsewhere for more.


And there in lies the problem now days. If you are from up north, down south, east or west, the IBEW should be trying to help fix things when they are broke, but like your statement most "brothers" in a round about way just say "wow it sucks to be you" and have no ideas or thoughts on how to fix the places that are broke right now. If it does not hurt you then why worry about it right?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> And there in lies the problem now days. If you are from up north, down south, east or west, the IBEW should be trying to help fix things when they are broke, but like your statement most "brothers" in a round about way just say "wow it sucks to be you" and have no ideas or thoughts on how to fix the places that are broke right now. If it does not hurt you then why worry about it right?


Of course you have all the answers and everybody else has their heads in the sand.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Of course you have all the answers and everybody else has their heads in the sand.


Obviously if I had all the answers, this would not be going on for 8 years


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> Obviously if I had all the answers, this would not be going on for 8 years


What goings on?


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Mike Holt is from Texas.

I heard from an old timer who worked with MH that he was the sloppiest hacker ever.

The dude turned to making cartoon books for the code. I can just see his story unfold, a bunch of tards huddled around a plywood lunch table, Mike teaching them the code via cartoons. So the boss says, Mike, you such a hacker, now you draw toons for the men full time. And so it began....


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

mr hands said:


> Mike Holt is from Texas.
> 
> I heard from an old timer who worked with MH that he was the sloppiest hacker ever.
> 
> The dude turned to making cartoon books for the code. I can just see his story unfold, a bunch of tards huddled around a plywood lunch table, Mike teaching them the code via cartoons. So the boss says, Mike, you such a hacker, now you draw toons for the men full time. And so it began....


:confused1:


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> What goings on?


What we have been discussing. No man power to man jobs, the hall/IBEW not being able to come up with a way to get men, losing work because of it, etc.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BDB said:


> :confused1:


He be trollin'

Go back and read all of his posts. Not just in this thread, but every post he makes is a poorly executed attempt at trolling.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BDB said:


> What we have been discussing. No man power to man jobs, the hall/IBEW not being able to come up with a way to get men, losing work because of it, etc.


That must be a jurisdictional thing. We have no manpower issues in the NE.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BDB said:


> What we have been discussing. No man power to man jobs, the hall/IBEW not being able to come up with a way to get men, losing work because of it, etc.


Texas needs to pay better. Stop being a third world country, pay your workers real wages and you will get manpower.

I make more in unemployment than the best rate in Texas. 

Choice - don't work or move to Texas and make less.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

eejack said:


> Texas needs to pay better. Stop being a third world country, pay your workers real wages and you will get manpower.
> 
> I make more in unemployment than the best rate in Texas.
> 
> Choice - don't work or move to Texas and make less.


Yep and your cost of living is probably about the same as ours right? That old excuse just does not fly. Raise your pay yada yada, and when you raise your pay then you will not have to worry about turning down work because everyone else will still be at the rate for down here and you will not get any work any way. Brilliant plan.:blink:


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## Je2LBrooks (Sep 24, 2013)




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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BDB said:


> Yep and your cost of living is probably about the same as ours right? That old excuse just does not fly. Raise your pay yada yada, and when you raise your pay then you will not have to worry about turning down work because everyone else will still be at the rate for down here and you will not get any work any way. Brilliant plan.:blink:


wow:laughing: you have the same mentality as walmart. the heads of walmart have come up with a plan for the holidays this year. hire full time employees part time with benefits. what a brainchild. you mean if the employees get full time benefits they will actually stay? no kidding... if i worked non union i would hope to hell that the union would stay alive to set the standard for everyone. if we lose money in negotiation, so does our non union counterpart. truth hurts i know. just keep spinning wirenuts like the rest of the sheep. it will be ok i think


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

texas is better than china i guess. they have a huge toyota plant. i think a huge huyundai plant as well. cant understand why. oh yeah. probably with all the republicans they vote in. god bless the armed american.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

A lot of Texan electricians have got it figured out and have moved to places like California...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

a whole bunch of texans i have worked with on the road wont even work in texas. most are fle'd up. had to come up with something to stay working somehow. cant work in home state...


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

cl219um said:


> a whole bunch of texans i have worked with on the road wont even work in texas. most are fle'd up. had to come up with something to stay working somehow. cant work in home state...


Texas looks like Iraq, but is full of ********.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

cl219um said:


> wow:laughing: you have the same mentality as walmart. the heads of walmart have come up with a plan for the holidays this year. hire full time employees part time with benefits. what a brainchild. you mean if the employees get full time benefits they will actually stay? no kidding... if i worked non union i would hope to hell that the union would stay alive to set the standard for everyone. if we lose money in negotiation, so does our non union counterpart. truth hurts i know. just keep spinning wirenuts like the rest of the sheep. it will be ok i think


Guess you do not pay attention, we are Union:no:


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

big2bird said:


> Texas looks like Iraq, but is full of ********.


Wow those are pretty damn good one liners:no:, That is always the answers to everything, if you do not agree with someone or do not have a solution on a problem just started one lines and then they will not know that I have no clue or help for the real problem. Good job gentlemen.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Ok, I guess case/post closed. You always hear of non union bashing union or union bashing non union and both of those are bad enough but when union starts bashing union then there is not much of a union any more.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BDB said:


> Yep and your cost of living is probably about the same as ours right? That old excuse just does not fly. Raise your pay yada yada, and when you raise your pay then you will not have to worry about turning down work because everyone else will still be at the rate for down here and you will not get any work any way. Brilliant plan.:blink:


Actually, you pay more in gas than I do, probably about the same in groceries etc. 

You want to know what is cheaper in texas...two things. Taxes ( and you have no services whatsoever to keep them so low ) and people. People in texas are dirt cheap to rent. You want an electrician...$200 a day will get you top help. You want super cheap labor...all the mexicans you want are available.

So your standard of living is lower because you get nothing at all out of your state government and people are willing to do anything, and I mean anything, for a couple of bucks.

Texas, the Mexico of America.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BDB said:


> Ok, I guess case/post closed. You always hear of non union bashing union or union bashing non union and both of those are bad enough but when union starts bashing union then there is not much of a union any more.


Not bashing union, I'm bashing Texas. And it is worthy of the bashing.

I have worked with a lot of Texas IBEW members, they all get their cards and LEAVE Texas to make a living. That should tell you something right there.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

BDB said:


> What we have been discussing. No man power to man jobs, the hall/IBEW not being able to come up with a way to get men, losing work because of it, etc.


It doesn't sound like a union issue, or a union-vs-non-union issue to me. It sounds like an economic issue to me. Compensation (wages) might not be high enough to attract workers. In the current economic climate it's going to be a tough sell to expect people to work essentially pro-bono. People are behind on their mortgages with mounting credit card debt, people are looking for competitive wages and heavy overtime work to try to catch up.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BDB said:


> Wow those are pretty damn good one liners:no:, That is always the answers to everything, if you do not agree with someone or do not have a solution on a problem just started one lines and then they will not know that I have no clue or help for the real problem. Good job gentlemen.


That IS the real problem. Texas is a sand lot full of 3rd world mentality.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

BDB said:


> Ok, I guess case/post closed. You always hear of non union bashing union or union bashing non union and both of those are bad enough but when union starts bashing union then there is not much of a union any more.


That coming from a Texan? By reading your post, I couldn't tell that you were union. When there is a ton of work and your local doesn't bargain for higher package to attract travelers it's pretty hard to man jobs. Texas and Florida have the worst scales in the country. Yet there are corporations begging to come in. Do you see the connection? All of the rich corporate companies had a choice. Build it in china and ship it back home, or there's Texas.. Maybe you are the last stand against everything being made in china. This is a huge mistake for corporate America. Loss of manufacturing jobs in America made the buying pool for the junk goods built overseas. Not sure if the strategy is working. Bdb I didn't mean to tear into you but it was deserved. I think the unions should organize. Perfect time to rebuild America.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

IMO the only place unions have a place in america is on the big work. And they are needed there, because there is nothing more disgusting than a pack of toothless carney electricians sleeping in tents down by the river.

Every union shop I worked for that did small work cracked the whip on the men worse than the non-union shops.

It's a wash either way. The lesson to be learned from all this, is to go straight to the source of the money, and keep as much crap between it and you out of the way, end of story. Texas has alot of money, that's why people are there. If you are going to make money there, I suspect cheating and backstabbing is in order. Just sayin.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

mr hands said:


> IMO the only place unions have a place in america is on the big work. And they are needed there, because there is nothing more disgusting than a pack of toothless carney electricians sleeping in tents down by the river.
> 
> Every union shop I worked for that did small work cracked the whip on the men worse than the non-union shops.
> 
> It's a wash either way. The lesson to be learned from all this, is to go straight to the source of the money, and keep as much crap between it and you out of the way, end of story. Texas has alot of money, that's why people are there. If you are going to make money there, I suspect cheating and backstabbing is in order. Just sayin.


No. That's not how it is supposed to be. The goal off the union has always been to organize all electricians. If you are scared of a larger pool of electricians, that's your problem. I know some great guys in the non union sector. If we were all on the same jobs together bargaining for the same scale, just think what we could ask for...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

update... guy doing the work got the pay. kind of a proud moment for me being a first time steward. yesterday worked some time. took no breaks after eight and got the guys an extra half hour pay. coworker thought we should go for $7 perdium for unscheduled o.t. told him we were only supposed to get an extra 15 minute break for the hours we worked so the extra half hour pay was kinda a bonus. he dropped it. feel like i am playing both sides of the field and its a bit indifferent for me. guys are hard to please when you are caught in the middle.


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