# Afci theory.



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Does anyone know why AFCI protection was mandated for lighting outlets in residential dwellings? 
Are their really that many fires that start from surface mount or recessed fixtures?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Does anyone know why AFCI protection was mandated for lighting outlets in residential dwellings?
> Are their really that many fires that start from surface mount or recessed fixtures?


AFCIs are supposed to protect the wiring in the walls as well as beyond the outlets. 


If they actually protect anything or not is up for debate.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AFCI's are intended to protect the _circuits_, not just the fixtures.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Just a matter of time before all 15 and 20 amp circuits require AFCI protection..


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> AFCI's are intended to protect the _Profits_, not just the fixtures.


There, I fixed it for ya...


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

B4T said:


> Just a matter of time before all 15 and 20 amp circuits require AFCI protection..


Ummmm, you should check out the 2008 NEC.....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> Ummmm, you should check out the 2008 NEC.....


He is working from a dog-eared 1978 NEC. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> Ummmm, you should check out the 2008 NEC.....


Really? Where does the '08 state they must?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Really? Where does the '08 state they must?


My thoughts exactly.. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> He is working from a dog-eared 1978 NEC. :jester:


No way.. I put these in there for most used sections..


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Really? Where does the '08 state they must?


So your argument is that it lists the rooms that need afci protection and doesn't say all of them, even though the ones that are not listed are already protected by gfci's????


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Does anyone know why AFCI protection was mandated for lighting outlets in residential dwellings?
> Are their really that many fires that start from surface mount or recessed fixtures?


The arc fault circuitry is meant to protect the dwellings...and the dwellers. It is a proven technology. In a properly installed electrical system there should not be an "arc fault" type of signature current that would trip a properly installed device.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> The arc fault circuitry is meant to protect the dwellings...and the dwellers. It is a proven technology. In a properly installed electrical system there should not be an "arc fault" type of signature current that would trip a properly installed device.


While the arc fault technology may be proven, what is not proven is if a series arc can even exist in a dwelling unit circuit.


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

it come from insurance company , their are pushing all the regulations . It will be much better when all circuit in house will be afci , even better if they could make a combination AFCI / GFCI breaker .


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

french connection!! said:


> ...It will be much better when all circuit in house will be afci , ...


Why do you say that? There is no evidence that the AFCI can detect and clear the most common type of fault...a poor connection. With AFCIs that had ground fault protection, the heat of a poor connection would often destroy enough insulation to cause a ground fault. With the newer AFCIs that don't have ground fault protection the only chance they have of clearing a "poor connection" fault is if that fault becomes a parallel arcing fault with a current of at least 75 amps.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I can't think of any other electrical goods or material we use that has been markered on such vagarities , with repetitive questions

after _years_ of this , one would think it would be a 110.3B issue

~CS~


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Why do you say that? There is no evidence that the AFCI can detect and clear the most common type of fault...a poor connection. With AFCIs that had ground fault protection, the heat of a poor connection would often destroy enough insulation to cause a ground fault. With the newer AFCIs that don't have ground fault protection the only chance they have of clearing a "poor connection" fault is if that fault becomes a parallel arcing fault with a current of at least 75 amps.


A bad connection is often called a series arc fault which was supposed to be a fault that AFCI were specifically designed to protect us from. To my knowledge all AFCI devices incorporates some form of GF protection but not the 6ma threashold of a Class A GFCI. Maybe as high as 30 ma. Further the parallel arc is usually a ground fault event which is generally picked up in the GF function. So your statement that newer AFCI breakers don't have GF protection just doesn't ring true to me. I would agree they do not have class A GFCI protection.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mshea said:


> A bad connection is often called a series arc fault which was supposed to be a fault that AFCI were specifically designed to protect us from. To my knowledge all AFCI devices incorporates some form of GF protection but not the 6ma threashold of a Class A GFCI. Maybe as high as 30 ma. Further the parallel arc is usually a ground fault event which is generally picked up in the GF function. So your statement that newer AFCI breakers don't have GF protection just doesn't ring true to me. I would agree they do not have class A GFCI protection.


This might answer a lot of that Mshea>>

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf




~CS~


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mshea said:


> A bad connection is often called a series arc fault which was supposed to be a fault that AFCI were specifically designed to protect us from. To my knowledge all AFCI devices incorporates some form of GF protection but not the 6ma threashold of a Class A GFCI. Maybe as high as 30 ma. Further the parallel arc is usually a ground fault event which is generally picked up in the GF function. So your statement that newer AFCI breakers don't have GF protection just doesn't ring true to me. I would agree they do not have class A GFCI protection.


Yes, they told us that the combination device was for series arcs, however if you dig in their statements you will find that they say that there is a difference between a series arc and a poor connection. There is no claim that an AFCI will directly detect a poor connection There is a very big question as to the existance of a series arc at voltages below 300 volts. 

The AFCI will not directly detect a glowing connection. It may detect it when it turns into a parallel arcing fault as long as the fault current exceeds 75 amps. It does not even look for a parallel arcing fault unless the current exceeds 75 amps. It may open on ground fault if the device has a ground fault protective circuit. There is no requirement in the UL standard for an AFCI to have ground fault detection...for that matter there is nothing in the standard that requires an AFCI to clear a series arc. 

As far as the AFCIs having ground fault protection, to my knowledge all of the branch circuit and feeder type of AFCIs had ground fault protection. There is at least on brand of combination type that does not have it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Does anyone know why AFCI protection was mandated for lighting outlets in residential dwellings?
> Are their really that many fires that start from surface mount or recessed fixtures?


Yes.


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

Its the same as this mandate for CO detectors in every home in CA. Who lobbied for it? The smoke detector companies. Yea, people having a bbq in their living room could have been dying from CO poisoning, but is it really an epidemic? 
I'll be damned if I'll trust my life to some $20 Chinese CO detector, OR some POS Chinese AFCI breaker. More people to employ to enforce codes, more products to make, etc etc etc.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

french connection!! said:


> it come from insurance company , their are pushing all the regulations . It will be much better when all circuit in house will be afci , even better if they could make a combination AFCI / GFCI breaker .


Arc fault breakers do have gfi protection in them already.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Dash Dingo said:


> Arc fault breakers do have gfi protection in them already.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dash Dingo said:


> Arc fault breakers do have gfi protection in them already.


No they don't. The original ones had GFPE in them, but the modern combination ones have no such protection at all.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> No they don't. The original ones had GFPE in them, but the modern combination ones have no such protection at all.


That sounds conspiritoral. Do you have a link that proves that there is no GFPE in them? I bet the long BR ones have..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> That sounds conspiritoral. Do you have a link that proves that there is no GFPE in them? I bet the long BR ones have..


Sorry, I have to learn not to post when I have my hat on.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> Just a matter of time before all 15 and 20 amp circuits require AFCI protection..


Yup and then we will need bigger panel's to put them in..:blink:


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

Peter D said:


> No they don't. The original ones had GFPE in them, but the modern combination ones have no such protection at all.


You ever tap a neutral and ground together on an arc breaker.. ? It trip the breaker every time ... but you can sit there and tap wires together making all the sparks /arcs you want and it wont trip ... afcis a good way for lawyers and engginers to make more money .. and make us look stupid when they nusaince trip


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Really? Where does the '08 state they must?


My understanding(and the inspectors in my jurisdiction) was '08 said new stuff, remodels additions and the like, but if you added an outlet somewhere you didn't have to. '11 changed it to every outlet you add....


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Peter D said:


> No they don't. The original ones had GFPE in them, but the modern combination ones have no such protection at all.


It is not part of the UL testing for the combination type. The siemens breakers do have some sort of ground fault equipment in them. The sqaure d qo one do too.


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