# Prefabrication



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NathanC said:


> I run the Prefab Shop for my company and have been looking at some new products(specifically the Hubbell Snap Connect and Legrand Quick Tail Devices) does anyone have any experience with these and if so does the drastic increase in cost off set the man hours spent wiring standard Receps?
> 
> The distributor I have contacted these quick devices are like $16 a piece (non special pricing) versus a standard recep thats like $1 and change.
> 
> ...


These types of devices are not new. I remember 15+ years ago Romex Racer tried them out and reported back that his team of Mexicans were much cheaper to trim out with standard devices.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

HackWork said:


> These types of devices are not new. I remember 15+ years ago Romex Racer tried them out and reported back that his team of Mexicans were much cheaper to trim out with standard devices.


I understand this concept but when the employer is paying min $12/hr for a first year to wire devices for trip out thats coupled with prefab could this not drastically drop the number of man hours it takes to complete the trim out in the first place? I mean if my shop builds and prewires the quick connect chould it actually save $15 in overall labor. My employer is more likely to hire those cheap hands to work in the prefab shop than in the field. So then that would add another factor that could drop it even more.

I may have to spend some time testing to see what the timing difference is on a standard trim out vs. one of these quick connect trim outs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NathanC said:


> I understand this concept but when the employer is paying min $12/hr for a first year to wire devices for trip out thats coupled with prefab could this not drastically drop the number of man hours it takes to complete the trim out in the first place? I mean if my shop builds and prewires the quick connect chould it actually save $15 in overall labor. My employer is more likely to hire those cheap hands to work in the prefab shop than in the field. So then that would add another factor that could drop it even more.
> 
> I may have to spend some time testing to see what the timing difference is on a standard trim out vs. one of these quick connect trim outs.


If the pigtails are already made up and ready to go, it takes very little time for someone who has been doing it for a few weeks to strip, bend, and hook 3 wires, then zip down the screws.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

NathanC said:


> I understand this concept but when the employer is paying min $12/hr for a first year to wire devices for trip out thats coupled with prefab could this not drastically drop the number of man hours it takes to complete the trim out in the first place? I mean if my shop builds and prewires the quick connect chould it actually save $15 in overall labor. My employer is more likely to hire those cheap hands to work in the prefab shop than in the field. So then that would add another factor that could drop it even more.
> 
> I may have to spend some time testing to see what the timing difference is on a standard trim out vs. one of these quick connect trim outs.


If the rough in crew makes up the boxes with pigtails, then the labor difference between putting three wires on screws vs. snapping in the quick connect receptacle will still win. There's probably a 30 second difference. At $12/hr, that amounts to 10 cents. No way buying a $15 receptacle can compete.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

HackWork said:


> If the pigtails are already made up and ready to go, it takes very little time for someone who has been doing it for a few weeks to strip, bend, and hook 3 wires, then zip down the screws.


I agree, but if the quick connect is wired in place of a standard pig tail even with an experienced electrician that eliminates those 4 steps and it snaps in screws in and the device is done. 

Lets say that those 4 steps cut out 45 seconds from the trim out per device, those 45 seconds would drastically add up over 100's of devices would it not. and thats more time that could be spent elsewhere in the project.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

NathanC said:


> I agree, but if the quick connect is wired in place of a standard pig tail even with an experienced electrician that eliminates those 4 steps and it snaps in screws in and the device is done.
> 
> Lets say that those 4 steps cut out 45 seconds from the trim out per device, those 45 seconds would drastically add up over 100's of devices would it not. and thats more time that could be spent elsewhere in the project.


So how long have you worked for Hubbell?


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> If the rough in crew makes up the boxes with pigtails, then the labor difference between putting three wires on screws vs. snapping in the quick connect receptacle will still win. There's probably a 30 second difference. At $12/hr, that amounts to 10 cents. No way buying a $15 receptacle can compete.


90% of box wiring is already done in the prefab process. Basically all rough in crew has to do on site is install the box, secure strapping and wire into junction box.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

You're better off making up everything in a prefab shop with your workers there, just put pigtails and wagos on a regular receptacle.

But you should know this already since you run a prefab shop.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> So how long have you worked for Hubbell?


:vs_laugh: I don't. It just seems like logic to me. It's not just Hubbell products I'm looking at several different similar products. Maybe I drank too much of the Prefab Koolaid, but I can see in theory benefits to the product.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

MTW said:


> You're better off making up everything in a prefab shop with your workers there, just put pigtails and wagos on a regular receptacle.
> 
> But you should know this already since you run a prefab shop.


I have experience in prefab as a worker. I just changed companies and hired on as foreman so I'm new to this side of the process that's why I am seeking input. This company has really only had prefab since June when I hired on.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NathanC said:


> I have experience in prefab as a worker. I just changed companies and hired on as foreman so I'm new to this side of the process that's why I am seeking input. This company has really only had prefab since June when I hired on.


I see. How much quantity are you talking here? Surely there is room to get a better price on those devices than $16 a piece. Start talking to sale reps about it.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

Don't get me wrong I do see draw backs to this but I also see potential. I'm not fighting against the standard way of doing things at all, I just want to hear what others input is on the topic and trying to see if my thinking is flawed in this process, to me its part of me growing as a foreman


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

MTW said:


> I see. How much quantity are you talking here? Surely there is room to get a better price on those devices than $16 a piece. Start talking to sale reps about it.


I don't have an active project right now so when i talk to the sales rep I've been pricing individual pieces(maybe this is where I am messing up, should I submit for a quote for say 100 devices each quicks and standards and then maybe that would give better idea of special pricing they may offer?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NathanC said:


> I agree, but if the quick connect is wired in place of a standard pig tail even with an experienced electrician that eliminates those 4 steps and it snaps in screws in and the device is done.
> 
> Lets say that those 4 steps cut out 45 seconds from the trim out per device, those 45 seconds would drastically add up over 100's of devices would it not. and thats more time that could be spent elsewhere in the project.


Ok, so 45 seconds for each device. Probably closer to 30, but let's stick with your 45.

Show me the math of how that will save you money.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

NathanC said:


> I agree, but if the quick connect is wired in place of a standard pig tail even with an experienced electrician that eliminates those 4 steps and it snaps in screws in and the device is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets say that those 4 steps cut out 45 seconds from the trim out per device, those 45 seconds would drastically add up over 100's of devices would it not. and thats more time that could be spent elsewhere in the project.


If it takes you longer than 45 seconds (even 30 seconds) to do this work, then there's something wrong with your method.

If the tails are already done, I could install a receptacle in approximately 30 seconds.

I do see where this could be useful... but IMHO they are not worth the extra thousands it would add to a job.

$15×100= $1500
$1×100=$100

Is it REALLY worth the extra $1400? That pays for about 14 hours of labour at $100 per hour.


I'm not sure about you, but I can install 100 plugs in less than 14 hours.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NathanC said:


> Don't get me wrong I do see draw backs to this but I also see potential. I'm not fighting against the standard way of doing things at all, I just want to hear what others input is on the topic and trying to see if my thinking is flawed in this process, to me its part of me growing as a foreman


As I mentioned, this type of thing is very old. The Cheetah system was around almost 2 decades ago and was basically the same thing. And in all that time, EC's have found that it is not worth it.

EDITED: It looks like Leviton bought the Cheetah system about 12 years ago and made some changes and added products, but they clearly couldn't sell it.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> If it takes you longer than 45 seconds (even 30 seconds) to do this work, then there's something wrong with your method.
> 
> If the tails are already done, I could install a receptacle in approximately 30 seconds.
> 
> ...


Sound logic. Cost is the only thing I am struggling with. ignoring cost if you can install 100 in less than 14 hours with the pigtail process. how many could you do in the same time with only having to mount the device? were talking zapping 2 screws to mount versus zapping 5 screws.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Nathan, it's NOT flying.

Specification Grade receptacles are back-wired in #12-- and this takes 30 seconds -- TOPS. 

They go MUCH faster than Residential Grade receptacles.


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

these are the arguments i think i need to hear thanks. like i said i needed someone other than my own head to play devils advocate and you all have convinced me this is not worth pursuing. 

this also gives me insight of other things to think of when preping jobs for my shop. like i said earlier im new to this side of the fence.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I like the idea of prefabbing, but this system is not prefabbing. It's the same amount of work to prefab normal pigtails as this connector pigtail. The end result is simply a different way to connect the pigtail to the device.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

NathanC said:


> Sound logic. Cost is the only thing I am struggling with. ignoring cost if you can install 100 in less than 14 hours with the pigtail process. how many could you do in the same time with only having to mount the device? were talking zapping 2 screws to mount versus zapping 5 screws.


My time is approximately 30 seconds a device. 

30×100= 3000 seconds. 3000÷60=50 minutes not including travel time between boxes. 

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’m with MTW. Pre-fab should consist of short pieces of wire in different colours, stripped with a Wago on one end.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I’m with MTW. Pre-fab should consist of short pieces of wire in different colours, stripped with a Wago on one end.


You mean make up the devices with little tails and wagos? Then install those later during trim?

Wouldn't that end up taking more time than just installing the device conventionally? 

You would have to add that entirely new process and step to the system along with the logistics.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Any one remember a product, maybe from Ideal, that was just a red wirenut with a black or white wire coming from the end with a fork terminal on it? I haven't seen them in years but if I were seriously considering prefabbing with an off-the-shelf product, I might go that route.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What astounds me about all this is that Romex Racer and Cheetah was 12 yrs ago now...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

What would be cool is receptacle outlets with built in lever nuts. No screwing, just push wire in and snap the cover tight.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> What astounds me about all this is that Romex Racer and Cheetah was 12 yrs ago now...


It's actually quite a bit longer than that. What was EKR, 2002?


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## NathanC (Dec 16, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> Any one remember a product, maybe from Ideal, that was just a red wirenut with a black or white wire coming from the end with a fork terminal on it? I haven't seen them in years but if I were seriously considering prefabbing with an off-the-shelf product, I might go that route.


Now this sounds like something I can for sure get behind. I will do some research and see what I can find similarly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NathanC said:


> Now this sounds like something I can for sure get behind. I will do some research and see what I can find similarly.


Why? If you are looking to save money, you can save a lot by using normal wirenuts and pieces of scrap wire that you already have. 

All these things do is displace the profit from you to the manufacturers.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's actually quite a bit longer than that. What was EKR, 2002?


We are still here doing the same gig. RR decided it wasn't paying well enough and bailed out to a different business altogether. Wonder how well off he is these days........


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> We are still here doing the same gig. RR decided it wasn't paying well enough and bailed out to a different business altogether. Wonder how well off he is these days........


There's not many jobs you can do with a 240Volt license plate.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

We used hundreds of plug tail devices on the last job and we had no devices to troubleshoot that I can recall.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

If I’m reading this thread right, there are manufacturers that still have the screws on the sides of the receptacles, and electricians are using screwdrivers to tighten them down on the copper? Who would’ve known! If I see any of them around, I’ll have to save them. I thought by now they would be collectors items. Or maybe just for replacements?

As to the question. 

“Macy’s don’t tell Gimbel’s”

Whose Gimbel’s? That’s my point. 

Labor around here is close to $100 an hour to put in receptacles.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

NathanC said:


> The distributor I have contacted these quick devices are like $16 a piece (non special pricing) versus a standard recep thats like $1 and change.





NathanC said:


> I understand this concept but when the employer is paying min $12/hr for a first year to wire devices for trip out thats coupled with prefab could this not drastically drop the number of man hours it takes to complete the trim out in the first place? I mean if my shop builds and prewires the quick connect chould it actually save $15 in overall labor.


Do they save $15 in labor that costs $12 an hour? :vs_laugh: Sure, if it takes an hour and fifteen minutes to wire pigtails to a device. 




NathanC said:


> I see the great potential in these items esp. in a prefab setting however am worried that the drop in man hours on trim out will not offset the cost of the device.


These devices may be of some use to a contractor that's short on time and manpower (especially short on low cost manpower) - for them it might make sense to throw money at it in the form of labor saving devices. 

These devices at that price are never going to work if you have a prefab shop staffed with lower cost labor. 

If they dramatically lowered the price on these devices, it wold take work away from the prefab shop ... but at that price you don't have anything to worry about.


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## joesparky28 (Mar 12, 2015)

*Snap Connect*

I have used the snap connect devices. Compared to wiring a normal device, there does not seem to be much gain in time. Especially when comparing the cost of the receptacle.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Nathan, do you have to get your pre-fab UL listing as assemblies ?


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Try this . On rough pigtail the ground as normal . Put wagos on the hot and neutral . Then have a low dollar guy put pugtails on plugs . Then give those plugs to the trim crew . Yes I just made you money and you are welcome .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

catsparky1 said:


> Try this . On rough pigtail the ground as normal . Put wagos on the hot and neutral . Then have a low dollar guy put pugtails on plugs . Then give those plugs to the trim crew . Yes I just made you money and you are welcome .


That's what was mentioned earlier. But IMO it will add labor/cost to the job, not reduce it.

Doing it the way you mentioned will now require a completely extra process to wire up the devices as well as the logistics of dealing with them.

Instead of having that cheap guy wire up the devices beforehand, he should just be doing it on the trim. I think it would save time and money.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you could buy receptacles with a high quality backstab we wouldn't be having this whole conversation, would we? If you could just strip strip strip, stab stab stab, it would be so fast you wouldn't bother trying to speed it up prefabbing. 

Maybe Wago will should start making receptacles. 

Of course, if you're still stripping wires with something crude and primitive like this 










rather than something built for speed (and accuracy) like this 










you're not serious about speed and efficiency, you're just relaxing and moseying down the road with your old fashioned pal. You'll probably live longer but you'll have to because it will take longer.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't take on jobs where the type of stripper I use determines whether I make a profit or not.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> I don't take on jobs where the type of stripper I use determines whether I make a profit or not.


Well I could make a profit stripping wire with my teeth so I agree but if there's a tool that makes a task faster, easier, and more accurate, why not use it?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

splatz said:


> Well I could make a profit stripping wire with my teeth so I agree but if there's a tool that makes a task faster, easier, and more accurate, why not use it?


I've never used that stripper before Splatz.
Why is it quicker? Is it because it cuts the wire the same length everytime? To me it would seem more fatiguing because of it's weight. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I've never used that stripper before Splatz.
> Why is it quicker? Is it because it cuts the wire the same length everytime? To me it would seem more fatiguing because of it's weight.


It also requires much more range of motion to operate it, adding to hand fatigue.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

splatz said:


> Well I could make a profit stripping wire with my teeth so I agree but if there's a tool that makes a task faster, easier, and more accurate, why not use it?


How many fractions of seconds do you have to save to pay for that tool? I can strip solid wire pretty quickly and accurately with my lineman's. And I don't have to waste profitable seconds to change tools to bend a hook to go around a screw.

I do use an automatic stripper for stranded panel wire though.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

zac said:


> I've never used that stripper before Splatz.
> Why is it quicker? Is it because it cuts the wire the same length everytime? To me it would seem more fatiguing because of it's weight.


If you set the stop to the strip length for your devices, it gets that perfect every time. It also automatically adjusts to the wire gauge, you don't have to line up the hole. You just squeeze the handle. 

It's mostly plastic so it's not really heavy, about the same as Reflex strippers, but it is definitely bulkier so it's a little harder to find a good spot for it in your pouch. I wouldn't say it's the only wire stripper anyone should ever carry but if you're going to be doing a lot of terminations, yes, well worth it. 

I bought two, the Knipex in the picture and a Felo, both are made in Germany. The Felo is smaller, lighter, and cheaper but it works OK.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It also requires much more range of motion to operate it, adding to hand fatigue.


Definitely disagree here, with regular stripper you have to pinch the wire with your left hand and pull sideways with your right. These are easier to use.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> How many fractions of seconds do you have to save to pay for that tool? I can strip solid wire pretty quickly and accurately with my lineman's. And I don't have to waste profitable seconds to change tools to bend a hook to go around a screw.
> 
> I do use an automatic stripper for stranded panel wire though.


If you're wasting profitable seconds to bend screw hooks you should be using Wagos, shouldn't you? :laughing: 

I can strip with linemans too, but it's so slow. Anyone that wants to race me on Youtube, we'll lay out 100 6" scraps of assorted #12 and #14 stranded and solid and see. I'll get drunk and step my glasses before we start just to make it sporting but you still won't have a fighting chance.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Please stop making fun of splatz for using homeowner strippers.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Please stop making fun of splatz for using homeowner strippers.


I am willing to bet the average homeowner in Germany can strip wire better than you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I am willing to bet the average homeowner in Germany can strip wire better than you.


Only Germany? What about Kazakhstan?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Only Germany? What about Kazakhstan?


You strip wire better than the average Kazak homowner for now, when they start getting electricity in their homes, you might be in trouble.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

splatz said:


> If you're wasting profitable seconds to bend screw hooks you should be using Wagos, shouldn't you? :laughing:
> 
> I can strip with linemans too, but it's so slow. Anyone that wants to race me on Youtube, we'll lay out 100 6" scraps of assorted #12 and #14 stranded and solid and see. I'll get drunk and step my glasses before we start just to make it sporting but you still won't have a fighting chance.


Is that where your job is complete, with 100 stripped ends? 

How about you have those 100 end sticking out of boxes scattered throughout a house and you have to terminate them? Put the stripper down, pick up your lineman's and install devices or wirenuts on those ends. That's where you need a wire hook, for device screws.

Or are you a backstabber?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Is that where your job is complete, with 100 stripped ends?
> 
> How about you have those 100 end sticking out of boxes scattered throughout a house and you have to terminate them? Put the stripper down, pick up your lineman's and install devices or wirenuts on those ends. That's where you need a wire hook, for device screws.
> 
> Or are you a backstabber?


Well now we're right back where we started. 

I think if you want to be really fast and efficient trimming you'd pigtail your devices in the shop, and Wago onto the pigtails in the field - @catsparky said it first. 

Without a doubt, I'd make those pigtails real rikki tick in the shop, cut them to length and strip them all, then hook them all, then screw them all on the devices.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

When it comes to time and motion everyone thinks its the speed of hand movement that affects the time. The true fact is the percentage of time spend landing out is small compared to the percentage of time spent moving to the next point. 

Work out the most comfortable way the job can be done while keeping all the tools in order and making sure that no one runs out of material and has to walk back to the van.

Im incredibly fast at wiring but for every hour i spend in a plc panel it takes another person 30 minutes to clean up the mess and find the tools that ive dropped or thrown out of the panel.


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