# explanation needed



## administr8tor (Mar 6, 2010)

Defective gfi.:thumbsup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

administr8tor said:


> Defective gfi.:thumbsup:



Wired it backwards- Did it really 'reset' or did you just push the button?

Just askin'


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

passthewire said:


> hit the reset and plugged in deep freeze. motor no worky.


Did it actually reset? And if it was a Leviton, did the green light light up?


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## administr8tor (Mar 6, 2010)

Ok I was assuming it to be wired correctly,:whistling2:

I have had a gfi work but not put power out the front  leviton


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

was a cooper, and yes i reset it fully, light came on and stayed on, which is how i can verify it didnt trip.

and yes it was hooked up correctly lol. i did double check after initially not hearing the motor for the freezer come on, but it was done right.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Eww Cooper. I have nothing but problems with Cooper, failures right out of the box and shortly down the road too.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

passthewire said:


> here is the issue, and i dont feel like waiting to ask in school next week.
> 
> in electrical school a few weeks ago i learned in my mud room at home i need gfci protection within 6 ft of the sink.
> 
> ...


 Get a different GFCI plug in the freezer and wait for the freezer to start maybe the freezer was still cold enough so it did not kick in right at the time you pluged it in.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Take that Cooper GFCI outside and throw it as far as you can. The only good GFCI says Pass & Seymour on it.

That said, there's no way in hell I'd put my own deep-freeze on a GFCI unless I was sure my homeowner's insurance covered spoiled food.


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

ok sounds like defective gfi. just making sure...

i went with cooper because my dad gave me a few boxes of them. 

and yeah after more thought into it i wont be putting it on a gfci anyways, i want hamburgers tomorrow night


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I stock 6' cords that I can connect to temp lights.. take a cord like that and connect it to the GFI and see if it works..

Just tape it up before you plug it in..


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Maybe the freezer wasn't calling for it to run at that time. By the time you swapped back to the other receptacle, it called for the compressor to run.


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Take that Cooper GFCI outside and throw it as far as you can. The only good GFCI says Pass & Seymour on it.
> 
> That said, there's no way in hell I'd put my own deep-freeze on a GFCI unless I was sure my homeowner's insurance covered spoiled food.


Refrigerators and freezers do not belong on GFCI circuits.


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

freezer was left off long enough to need to kick on.. when i noticed motor did not come on, i opened lid and checked on it a few mins later, then again, a few times, until the ice cream got a little soft. it should have come on.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Podagrower said:


> Refrigerators and freezers do not belong on GFCI circuits.


Actually in many cases they are required to be.

If they are tripping a GFCI there is a problem with the refrigerator or freezer not with the GFCI.

If you are paranoid that the GFCI will trip and your food will spoil you can get alarms from $15 to $100s that can be as simple as making a noise locally to as complicated as dialing out and sending emails.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That said, there's no way in hell I'd put my own deep-freeze on a GFCI unless I was sure my homeowner's insurance covered spoiled food.


You are such a wuss. :laughing:


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

im going to switch another plug elsewhere in the house for a gfci today, and im going to use what i think was the defective gfi from the freezer incident. 

if not i have some spares. all cooper though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Cooper GFCIs have a nasty habit of not closing the contacts inside when you press the reset button.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Cooper GFCIs have a nasty habit of not closing the contacts inside when you press the reset button.


That is not a problem, that is added value. That prolongs the life of the contacts by decades maybe longer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That is not a problem, that is added value. That prolongs the life of the contacts by decades maybe longer.



No, it shortens it's life to the 1.273 minutes it takes me to remove it from the (blue Carlon) box and find a trash can. :whistling2:


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## Kill O Watt (Dec 30, 2010)

Why would you wan to gfi protect the freezer? There's a problem waiting to happen. If the feed for the freezer is coming off the outlet you're replacing, just make them both line side. If the gfi fails, your freezer will continue to run. The gfi is for the counter top within the sink space anyway, so whatever you have plugged in to the gfi will be protected.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Take that Cooper GFCI outside and throw it as far as you can. The only good GFCI says Pass & Seymour on it.
> 
> That said, there's no way in hell I'd put my own deep-freeze on a GFCI unless I was sure my homeowner's insurance covered spoiled food.


Would you not put it on one for a customer if it is required? We have all seen cords with the equipment ground pin broken or even intentionally cut off so it will fit in a non grounding cord or receptacle. I have seen many of these or even older freezers with only a two wire cord located in a garage or unfinished basement that develop a ground fault to the case of freezer and I get a service call because they are being shocked or the GFCI is tripping. There are temperature alarms that are well worth it vs a serious injury or death.

Many times in a home a person may be barefooted when contacting the energized faulted freezer making the risk even higher 



Podagrower said:


> Refrigerators and freezers do not belong on GFCI circuits.


See my reply above.



B4T said:


> I stock 6' cords that I can connect to temp lights.. take a cord like that and connect it to the GFI and see if it works..
> 
> Just tape it up before you plug it in..


 Why not just plug in some other load, a lamp, a tool, a test meter


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Kill O Watt said:


> Why would you wan to gfi protect the freezer? There's a problem waiting to happen. If the feed for the freezer is coming off the outlet you're replacing, just make them both line side. If the gfi fails, your freezer will continue to run. The gfi is for the counter top within the sink space anyway, so whatever you have plugged in to the gfi will be protected.



If the recep the freezer plugs into is within 6' of the sink, it needs GFCI protection. *210.8(A)(7) has nothing to do with countertops.*


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Kill O Watt said:


> Why would you wan to gfi protect the freezer? There's a problem waiting to happen. If the feed for the freezer is coming off the outlet you're replacing, just make them both line side. If the gfi fails, your freezer will continue to run. The gfi is for the counter top within the sink space anyway, so whatever you have plugged in to the gfi will be protected.


If the receptacle for the ref or freezer is within 6' of a sink, excluding kitchen for some reason, then the recep. must be GFCI protected.

Now, why has n't the OP used a tester to see if there was voltage at the receptacle? Did you trip it and reset it again?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

If the reefer receptacle is accessible and with in 6 feet of the sink, then it has to be a GFCI. If it's inaccessible,,, behind it,, then it doesn't need to be a GFCI. 
Hermetically sealed compressors like to nuisance trip every now and then.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> If the reefer receptacle is accessible and with in 6 feet of the sink, then it has to be a GFCI. If it's inaccessible,,, behind it,, then it doesn't need to be a GFCI...........



Code reference, please.


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

didnt know this would be a big topic lol. but yeah only reason i did it is because it got brought up at school a few weeks ago and it stuck in my mind that i needed a gfi there. 

i attached a pic. 

actually the washer outlet is within 6 ft of the sink as well.

my house is about 85-90% remodeled, and i am finishing the rest as i have time


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Code reference, please.


I'll retract my answer until I go sit in other washroom. All I have here is the new York times.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the receptacle for the ref or freezer is within 6' of a sink, excluding kitchen for some reason, then the recep. must be GFCI protected.
> 
> Now, why has n't the OP used a tester to see if there was voltage at the receptacle? Did you trip it and reset it again?


Dennis in 2008 any receptacle within 6 ft including one for a refrigerator would need gfi protection. The change saying except kitchens takes affect in 2011.

(7) Sinks — *located in areas other than kitchens *where
receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink


EDIT I was looking at other than dwelling sorry. The above is the 2011 for a dwelling and now it actually says except kitchens.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Dennis in 2008 any receptacle within 6 ft including one for a refrigerator would need gfi protection. The change saying except kitchens takes affect in 2011 correct.
> 
> (7) Sinks — *located in areas other than kitchens *where
> receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
> edge of the sink



No , I disagree. In 2008 #6 says Kitchen- where the receptacles serve the countertop surface. This would exclude the Refrigerator if the outlet is not over the counter.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Code reference, please.


All I have here is the 2005, so based on that my reference would fall under 
210.8 (a) exception 1~2


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

passthewire said:


> didnt know this would be a big topic lol..........



Probably the reason is so many never bother to open the Codebook, look it up, read it, and try to understand why it says what it does. They just go by what they're told.

Not saying you or anyone else here is stupid or lazy, but that's the way it is sometimes. I know some people who are still stuck on the 6' GFCI rule for kitchen c'tops, and I think that disappeared in 1996.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Isn't it the Cooper GFI's that light when the unit is tripped, and off when reset? I'm pretty sure one of the major brands do that. At any rate, there is an opinion out there that there is no such thing as nuisance tripping, and that only a ground fault will trip a GFI.

I have witnessed it first hand on a few occasions. For instance, just last week my shop vac, with a two-wire cord sitting on a carpeted floor, plugged into a brand new smart lock GFI, would trip the unit every now and then. It could not have been a ground fault as there was no way for the machine to have been grounded. I have seen similar happen with other universal motor driven tools.

No, I won't plug my freezer into a GFI.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Take that Cooper GFCI outside and throw it as far as you can. The only good GFCI says Pass & Seymour on it.
> 
> That said, there's no way in hell I'd put my own deep-freeze on a GFCI unless I was sure my homeowner's insurance covered spoiled food.


P&S is the only brand I try to use. 

I would put a simplex in for the freezer and put the gfci at the next recp on the circuit. 

Why do you want to gfci it anyway it has worked fine prior to this. Gfci are good but Murphys law comes in to effect. If it works don't fix it!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> All I have here is the 2005, so based on that my reference would fall under
> 210.8 (a) exception 1~2



OK, let's try reading 210.8(A)(*7*), not (*2*).


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> No , I disagree. In 2008 #6 says Kitchen- where the receptacles serve the countertop surface. This would exclude the Refrigerator if the outlet is not over the counter.



Read my edit.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, let's try reading 210.8(A)(7), not (2).


Your correct. 
I misread the OP and saw jwjrw's answer. 

fpn,, order 2nd 2011 as reading material for WC.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Kill O Watt said:


> Why would you wan to gfi protect the freezer? There's a problem waiting to happen. If the feed for the freezer is coming off the outlet you're replacing, just make them both line side. If the gfi fails, your freezer will continue to run. The gfi is for the counter top within the sink space anyway, so whatever you have plugged in to the gfi will be protected.


 

Keep in mind that if the freezer's ever in an unfinished basement, it will have to be GFI'd


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Your correct.
> I misread the OP and saw* jwjrw's *answer.
> 
> fpn,, order 2nd 2011 as reading material for WC.




Smart members never trust any code info a troll posts...:no::laughing:
I was reading the 2008 NON dwelling and posting 2011dwelling unit article.:laughing:


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## passthewire (Jan 1, 2011)

ok i have had my first "learning experience" of the new year. 

inphase277 was right----- these are the coopers the light up when tripped. "doh!!"

well as long as the wife, dad/boss dont find out lol. 

got the cooper put in another location - wetbar where i keep baby monitor plugged in 24/7. 

baby monitor no worky, but light was on. i was thinking hmmmmm..... oh crap.:no::whistling2: 
well to add some insight to the ordeal, at least my teacher at school is making me think about this stuff. i do not sit and read the codebook for fun, but as an apprentice i think you learn as you cross each bridge. i have many uncrossed in my future. hopefully next time its more complicated lol.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Smart members never trust any code info a troll posts...:no::laughing:
> I was reading the 2008 NON dwelling and posting 2011dwelling unit article.:laughing:


I never said I trusted an answer. LoL
But I can't reference for the correct one.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Read my edit.


I did but I posted at the same time you edited your post.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

passthewire said:


> ok i have had my first "learning experience" of the new year.
> 
> inphase277 was right----- these are the coopers the light up when tripped. "doh!!"
> 
> ...


P&S now makes GFCI's that have a built in night light. I put them in my kitchen and man do they light the way at my 2am cookie and milk raiding time. They also light up when tripped.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> I never said I trusted an answer. LoL
> But I can't reference for the correct one.




Man I love WW2 era planes and war stuff. Went to see the USS Wilmington this year. Your avatar is cool.:thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Man I love WW2 era planes and war stuff. Went to see the USS Wilmington this year. Your avatar is cool.:thumbsup:


I'm a WW2 naval war buff. 
Glad you like the avatar. Couldn't help but like the baby in the ball turret. That kid knows what he wants to be when he grows up. LoL

The Wilmington is an old gun boat. PG-8. 
Looks pretty nice.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I did but I posted at the same time you edited your post.



Yea I'm trying to make sure I have facts to support my posts before I post them now. I thought I had that right. Then after I posted I realized I was reading NON dwelling. :wallbash:


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> ..there is an opinion out there that there is no such thing as nuisance tripping ..


 
The nuisance is the fact that it tripped and interrupted operation of whatever is supplied by it.

Any protective device that trips does so for a reason, many people just don't know how to determine what the reason is, or don't care.

The reason can be the unit is doing what it was intended to do and there is a fault someplace, it could be a defective unit, it could be a defective design of the unit, or there could be unusual circumstances - these are the ones that can really stump people that are good at troubleshooting these types of problems.


So many people do not understand what a GFCI actually is for and the basics of how they work. Knowing this helps with troubleshooting 'nuisance' tripping. It also helps understand why their installation is required in the places where they are required.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Keep in mind that if the freezer's ever in an unfinished basement, it will have to be GFI'd



Keep in mind freezers do not require GFCI protection. _Receptacles_ do. :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

kwired said:


> The reason can be the unit is doing what it was intended to do and there is a fault someplace, it could be a defective unit, it could be a defective design of the unit, or there could be unusual circumstances - these are the ones that can really stump people that are good at troubleshooting these types of problems.


The only time a GFI should trip is when there is an difference in the current on the hot and neutral. It should not trip when a brushed motor kicks on, unless there is a ground fault. That, to me, is nuisance tripping. I will grant that it is not a common occurrence, but I have witnessed it. 

In my shop vac example, a two-wire cord supplies power, and the vac itself is plastic and sitting on carpet, far from any grounded material. There is no possibility of a ground fault, yet it sometimes kicks a GFI. I have seen this on all brands of GFI, old and new, from different kinds of motor driven equipment, but mostly universal motors. I understand well the operation of a GFI and agree that there is most of the time a reason for tripping. But I have also seen instances where they trip for nothing.


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## Kill O Watt (Dec 30, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Keep in mind that if the freezer's ever in an unfinished basement, it will have to be GFI'd


Agreed. I also misunderstood the original question... thought this was in a kitchen, not realizing it was in his mud room.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

kwired said:


> Why not just plug in some other load, a lamp, a tool, a test meter


Because I want to check the line side.. the OP should not be using a feed through GFI when there is a freezer involved.

I only use "point of use" GFI outlets.. those feed through installs just make for more headaches in the long run..

Better to only lose the use of (1) GFI in the kitchen and not half the counter top receptacles..


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

passthewire said:


> ok i have had my first "learning experience" of the new year.
> 
> inphase277 was right----- these are the coopers the light up when tripped. "doh!!"
> 
> ...


 

Why aren't you using your meter? BTW, Cooper GFCI's light when they are tripped, not the other way around.


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

GFCI's can trip due to inductive kickback. The equipment doesn't have to have a grounding plug to work.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Psyphren said:


> GFCI's can trip due to inductive kickback. The equipment doesn't have to have a grounding plug to work.


 Do you have a link for that

Welcome to the forum:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Psyphren said:


> GFCI's can trip due to inductive kickback. The equipment doesn't have to have a grounding plug to work.


I agree the gfci does not need a ground to work but I thought the newer GFCI units don't trip due to inductive kickback. Educate me.


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## Kill O Watt (Dec 30, 2010)

Throw a GFI breaker in and call it a day...lol


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> The only time a GFI should trip is when there is an difference in the current on the hot and neutral. It should not trip when a brushed motor kicks on, unless there is a ground fault. That, to me, is nuisance tripping. I will grant that it is not a common occurrence, but I have witnessed it.
> 
> In my shop vac example, a two-wire cord supplies power, and the vac itself is plastic and sitting on carpet, far from any grounded material. There is no possibility of a ground fault, yet it sometimes kicks a GFI. I have seen this on all brands of GFI, old and new, from different kinds of motor driven equipment, but mostly universal motors. I understand well the operation of a GFI and agree that there is most of the time a reason for tripping. But I have also seen instances where they trip for nothing.


I totally agree with you, but it still has a reason it is tripping you just have not determined it yet. 



kwired said:


> *The nuisance is the fact that it tripped and interrupted operation of whatever is supplied by it*.
> 
> Any protective device that trips does so for a reason, many people just don't know how to determine what the reason is, or don't care.
> 
> ...


 
As has been mentioed some brands of GFCI's seem to be better than others for some of the unusual circumstances that cause tripping. I have noticed less 'nuisance' tripping of GFCI breakers than I have ever noticed with any GFCI receptacle device. I have like others had better luck with P&S but they still have issues that are not easy to solve at times.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

passthewire:



US ARMY Veteran OIF 07-08, OEF 09-10




Thank you.


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## Psyphren (Dec 31, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree the gfci does not need a ground to work but I thought the newer GFCI units don't trip due to inductive kickback. Educate me.


This is just how I understand it.
GFCI monitors current out and back in. If its not balanced then it assumes its losing current. (Possible thru someone) When a motor turns off the collapsing magnetic field causes inductive kickback. Which is why you put a snubber on sensitive things like a SSR. There suppose to work extremely fast, so in my mind that's gonna cause trips every now and again. But I've been wrong before!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

B4T said:


> I only use "point of use" GFI outlets.. those feed through installs just make for more headaches in the long run..
> 
> Better to only lose the use of (1) GFI in the kitchen and not half the counter top receptacles..


Do you really do electrical work? In a perfect environment i could see this but in real life you would never get a bid. That would probably add $600 to an average house. Maybe you should just put every single receptacle on its own circuit why your at it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Do you really do electrical work?


He owns his own business too, scary ain't it? :laughing:


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Do you really do electrical work? In a perfect environment i could see this but in real life you would never get a bid. That would probably add $600 to an average house. Maybe you should just put every single receptacle on its own circuit why your at it.





Jlarson said:


> He owns his own business too, scary ain't it? :laughing:


 
Might be scary, but if $600 is too much on a new house then I don't care to be working on that house. I don't sell the cheapest thing out there, I sell my pride and an installation that the customer will like. I will tell them they can have a cheap home with things they find they don't like and spend even more money later making it right or spend a little more now and be happy from the start. $600 is only 1 percent of total cost of home if it is a $60,000 house. A pretty basic home cost more than that anymore.

I have had a few that I did not work on because I was too high. They end up having me come back sometime down the road to fix things they didn't like about the contactor they did use and realized that my price was not out of line after all.


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## JimmyR (Mar 11, 2010)

i would install a single receptacle non gfci protected


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## skoota381 (Dec 11, 2010)

just in case anyone didnt know the early blackberries would also cause a gfci recepticle to randomly trip out. took a long day and alot of head scratching to figure that out


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