# AFCI Or not?



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Situation:

Take a lighting ckt FROM the kitchen- Not AFCI required-,
Run it into the BEDROOM,install a switch,in the bedroom, that switch controls an outside security light (ONLY).

Does this switch/ckt need to be AFCI protected?

Yea- Nay- Please support.

I'm trying to learn.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> Situation:
> 
> Take a lighting ckt FROM the kitchen- Not AFCI required-,
> Run it into the BEDROOM,install a switch,in the bedroom, that switch controls an outside security light.
> ...


Wouldn't the switch box be an outlet in the bedroom?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

hmmmmmmmmm.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

If the switch is in the bedroom then that's a yes.


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## JohnSham (Jan 7, 2010)

*flip*

flip box other way and it's ok. stupid rule


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JohnSham said:


> flip box other way and it's ok. stupid rule


Wouldn't you have to go outside to turn the light on?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Wouldn't you have to go outside to turn the light on?


That shouldn't be much of a problem. Where John Sham lives they don't have doors.
:whistling2:


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## JohnSham (Jan 7, 2010)

*hh*

:furious:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JohnSham said:


> :furious:


Man, you look mad. Have the doors been missing long?


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## JohnSham (Jan 7, 2010)

*ii*

:furious::furious::furious:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JohnSham said:


> :furious::furious::furious:


Wow! I didn't mean to make you so mad. I was just kiddin'...and...I like CORN.


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## JohnSham (Jan 7, 2010)

*jj*

:thumbup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

leland said:


> Situation:
> 
> Take a lighting ckt FROM the kitchen- Not AFCI required-,
> Run it into the BEDROOM,install a switch,in the bedroom, that switch controls an outside security light (ONLY).
> ...



Just asking.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I vote no. There is no power being consumed in that bedroom from that switch.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

leland said:


> Just asking.


I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room here Leland. If you install any outlet (line voltage opening) in a bedroom it needs to be AFCI.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

leland said:


> Situation:
> 
> Take a lighting ckt FROM the kitchen- Not AFCI required-,
> Run it into the BEDROOM,install a switch,in the bedroom, that switch controls an outside security light (ONLY).
> ...


 interesting,,,id have to say yes, a}because its in a bedroom and b} i think the new code would apply concerning arc fault


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> I vote no. There is no power being consumed in that bedroom from that switch.


yep, switch in b/r is key: power is pulled to that area of the house, therefore must be afci protected.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> I vote no. There is no power being consumed in that bedroom from that switch.


210.12 (b)
It doesn't say anything about consumption of power. "Supplying outlets" are the key words there.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room here Leland. If you install any outlet (line voltage opening) in a bedroom it needs to be AFCI.



good point.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> good point.


Leland, what if the box was just a junction box in the wall in the bedroom, with a blank cover?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Leland, what if the box was just a junction box in the wall in the bedroom, with a blank cover?



But it is not!

What if my Aunt had balls?. Sorry I digress.
No, You did.:laughing::laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> But it is not!
> 
> What if my Aunt had balls?. Sorry I digress.
> No, You did.:laughing::laughing:


Just asking. Dude, you'd better get your Aunt checked out.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

:thumbsup::thumbup:


RIVETER said:


> Just asking. Dude, you'd better get your Aunt checked out.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

:laughing:
You could fill the box with silly putty, scotchkote the splices, label them with hello kitty stickers, and slam a brick in there and it still would have to be AFCI protected.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> :laughing:
> You could fill the box with silly putty, scotchkote the splices, label them with hello kitty stickers, and slam a brick in there and it still would have to be AFCI protected.


You're so RUDE...but I agree with you.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Article 100*

Sums it up.

KB- nailed it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> Sums it up.
> 
> KB- nailed it.


Could you quote the code about that? It would seem to me that if the box was in the wall, in the bedroom, and had conductors in it, the conditions now are different. Don't you think that an arc fault could occur on a kitchen circuit as well as a bedroom circuit? And if you have a kitchen circuit going into the bedroom, isn't that now a bedroom circuit? I'm just asking? If you tied into a bedroom circuit and for convenience sake extended it into the kitchen for some reason, would you bother to do whatever it takes to remove it from being AFCI protected?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Article 100? What definition are you referring to?? 
There's no nail here, just some very wet flimsy duct tape at this point.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Art: 100*

OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.

A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.
> 
> A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


I guess that I will not argue with an exact quote. I am figuring that if an arcing situation occurs, and it could, the investigation authority would understand that the outdoor lighting fixture was not a utilization device...it was just a light...outside...coming from a bedroom.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I guess that I will not argue with an exact quote. I am figuring that if an arcing situation occurs, and it could, the investigation authority would understand that the outdoor lighting fixture was not a utilization device...it was just a light...outside...coming from a bedroom.



I don't write it. I just work with it.

Take the words for what they are. 210.12(B) clearly states "OUTLETS".:thumbsup:

So now to your junction box with a blank cover..................:thumbup:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

The bottom line is that most, if not all inspectors interpret a switch box to be an outlet as the code is written. My state is still on the '05 cycle and pretty much everyone of them checks the light in the bedroom. Now, if the inspector flips all of the AFCI's off, goes into the bedroom and turns all of the switches on and sees no light, you may get away with it. But, in most cases that exterior light that is switched from inside a bedroom is almost always going to be on the same ckt as a bedroom. Aside from 3way/4way going all the way around the perimeter of the house, who knows where the home run comes from.
In the '08 cycle I don't think you're getting away with this. 
Maybe, i have to reread it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

leland said:


> OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.
> 
> A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


This is my take as well. It has also been interpreted this way in the trade mags.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.
> 
> A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


Yup. My point exactly. The switch does not consume current by itself. No AFI protection required. The "outlet" in this case is outside, and that is beyond the AFI requirements.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> The bottom line is that most, if not all inspectors interpret a switch to be an outlet as the code is written. My state is still on the '05 cycle and pretty much everyone of them checks the light in the bedroom. Now, if the inspector flips all of the AFCI's off, goes into the bedroom and turns all of the switches on and sees no light, you may get away with it. But, in most cases that exterior light that is switched from inside a bedroom is almost always going to be on the same ckt as a bedroom. Aside from 3way/4way going all the way around the perimeter of the house, who knows where the home run comes from.
> In the '08 cycle I don't think you're getting away with this.
> Maybe, i have to reread it.


I believe you are right. Most inspectors, if they see a box in a wall in a bedroom, will say it must be AFCI protected. We have inspectors on this forum, where are they?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I believe you are right. Most inspectors, if they see a box in a wall in a bedroom, will say it must be AFCI protected. We have inspectors on this forum, where are they?


If an inspector calls a switch an outlet then they would be wrong.

A switch is a device.



> Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.


An outlet, as has already been pointed out, is a point on a premise wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment.



> Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


A switch is not a point on a wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment. A switch is a point on a premise wiring system that *controls* electric energy.

Chris


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

raider1 said:


> If an inspector calls a switch an outlet then they would be wrong.
> 
> A switch is a device.
> 
> ...


The spirit, or the intent is important. A device is anything that is utilized in an electrical system.

You have current through the switch which is supplying a utiiizing fixture.

You have the same conductors as you would have anywhere else in the house, only now the exposure is in the bedroom. Do you think that an arc fault can't occur because it is an outside light?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> Do you think that an arc fault can't occur because it is an outside light?


Did I ever insinuate that a short circuit or arcing fault could not occur at a switch?

My point is that the code only requires "outlets" to be protected by AFCI protection, not necessarily devices.

So if the only "outlets" on this circuit are lights outside and the switches are located in areas that require AFCI protection then the code does not require AFCI protection of the circuit.



> The spirit, or the intent is important.


I disagree, the code says what it says and it does not require switches themselves to be AFCI protected, the lighting outlet that the switch is connected to may require the AFCI protection.

Chris


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

I am with kb, leland and scott. A switch is not an outlet. A receptacle is an outlet, a light fixture is an outlet, but a switch is not an outlet.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> This is my take as well. It has also been interpreted this way in the trade mags.


 
Yep I saw a MH drawing and he said no arc required.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

90.4 The code is based on the interpretation of the AJH. Although you all make valid points, you have to make the AJH believe that your interpretation is correct. If you don't then you are wrong and he is right.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

hiloelectric said:


> 90.4 The code is based on the interpretation of the AJH.


Yes to some extent but very rarely is the inspector the AHJ.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

In Washington state the inspector is. If you want to fight him you have to go to his superior in the local office or the chief electrical inspector for the state. All of which are long processes that make enemies for life with the local inspector.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> 90.4 The code is based on the interpretation of the AJH. Although you all make valid points, you have to make the AJH believe that your interpretation is correct. If you don't then you are wrong and he is right.


How would you "interpret" a switch to be an outlet?

The NEC defines an outlet and a switch does not meet that definition.

For an inspector to "interpret" that a switch is an outlet, IMHO is exceeding their authority.

Chris


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

In this area they argue that it interrupts power to other outlets in the room and is subject to arcing. It may not be an outlet by definition but you won't get a final around here without it. 

Why would you have one life saving device (arc faults) turn off another (smoke detectors). as if people ever change the batteries in those. 

Why would this matter any more anyways if we are using the 2008 NEC


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

is it possible that the switch could operate a plug and so they[inspectors} consider them{switches and plugs} to be the same in their eyes,,just to be covered.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> In this area they argue that it interrupts power to other outlets in the room and is subject to arcing. It may not be an outlet by definition but you won't get a final around here without it.
> 
> Why would you have one life saving device (arc faults) turn off another (smoke detectors). as if people ever change the batteries in those.
> 
> Why would this matter any more anyways if we are using the 2008 NEC


Smoke alarms installed in bedrooms under the 2005 NEC are required to be AFCI protected because they are "outlets".

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

zen said:


> is it possible that the switch could operate a plug and so they[inspectors} consider them{switches and plugs} to be the same in their eyes,,just to be covered.


A switch does typically control an outlet whether it be a receptacle outlet or a lighting outlet.

Again my point is that a switch by itself is not an outlet, what ever it controls would be.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Let me use an example:

I have a circuit that supplies only outside lighting outlets. I have a set of 3 way switches one switch in a bedroom located by an exterior door and the other located inside by the family room.

This circuit would not be required to be AFCI protected under the 2008 NEC because this circuit does not supply any outlets located in the areas listed in 210.12. The switches are located in areas listed in 210.12 but because a switch is not an outlet no AFCI protection is required.

Chris


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I bet this is all changing in 2011...I bet switches become outlets.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

leland said:


> OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.
> 
> A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


If you are going to use this definition, isn't the box on the bedroom wall housing circuit conductors that supply current to a utilization device?


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Let me use an example:
> 
> I have a circuit that supplies only outside lighting outlets. I have a set of 3 way switches one switch in a bedroom located by an exterior door and the other located inside by the family room.
> 
> ...


 According to the 2008 NEC the family room and the bedroom have to be arc fault protected. so why not put the outside light on the arc fault. It would be more work not too.

I know that smoke alarms are outlets. What I'm saying is where is the common sense in having one life saving device turn off another.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

raider1 said:


> A switch does typically control an outlet whether it be a receptacle outlet or a lighting outlet.
> 
> Again my point is that a switch by itself is not an outlet, what ever it controls would be.
> 
> Chris


And all of this becomes pointless to argue when your facing a dead line and the inspector tells you that your not getting a final inspection unless that switch is on an arc fault circuit.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> According to the 2008 NEC the family room and the bedroom have to be arc fault protected. so why not put the outside light on the arc fault. It would be more work not too.
> 
> I know that smoke alarms are outlets. What I'm saying is where is the common sense in having one life saving device turn off another.


It may be operating several lights,enough to dictate a whole lighting ckt.

So lets change the purpose- this sw. operates he power pool cover.

Bad example- right back to your argument.

Your last sentence,has me confused-


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

hiloelectric said:


> I know that smoke alarms are outlets. What I'm saying is where is the common sense in having one life saving device turn off another.


Do you not use circuit breakers to power your smoke detectors?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> If you are going to use this definition, isn't the box on the bedroom wall housing circuit conductors that supply current to a utilization device?


If that box is connected to utilization equipment then it would be an "outlet" by the NEC definition. For example the box the a smoke alarm is connected to would be an outlet.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I bet this is all changing in 2011...I bet switches become outlets.


Nope, just checked out the 2011 NEC draft and there is nothing in 210.12 that would require AFCI protection of a switch.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> According to the 2008 NEC the family room and the bedroom have to be arc fault protected. so why not put the outside light on the arc fault. It would be more work not too.
> 
> 
> > Because if I have a circuit that ONLY supplies lighting outlets outside it does not require AFCI protection.
> ...


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

hiloelectric said:


> According to the 2008 NEC the family room and the bedroom have to be arc fault protected. so why not put the outside light on the arc fault. It would be more work not too.
> 
> I know that smoke alarms are outlets. *What I'm saying is where is the common sense in having one life saving device turn off another.*


I asked an inspector this the other week and didnt get an answer I understand.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

You guys do realize smoke detectors have battery back up right? :jester:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You guys do realize smoke detectors have battery back up right? :jester:


Yeah I change em out all the time. To me, I think its just another point of failure for a life saving device. We put our smokes on its own circuit. IMO if the battery goes dead and the AFIC is tripped it becomes dangerous. Then again its dangerours to rely only on smoke detectors.


JMHO


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Voltech said:


> Yeah I change em out all the time. To me, I think its just another point of failure for a life saving device. We put our smokes on its own circuit. IMO if the battery goes dead and the AFIC is tripped it becomes dangerous. Then again its dangerours to rely only on smoke detectors.
> 
> 
> JMHO


I'd suggest that smokes on their own circuit is more dangerous than smokes on an afci circuit that feeds other commonly used loads.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the OP is actually a fairly rare situation. Regardless of the definition of "outlet" most switches in a bedroom control lights within a bedroom anyway. Most switches within a bedroom that control exterior lights are on the same circuit as the bedroom's lighting circuit anyway.
Which means they have to be AFCI protected. 
I wouldn't go through the time and effort to make a case to an inspector over this.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd suggest that smokes on their own circuit is more dangerous than smokes on an afci circuit that feeds other commonly used loads.


Yeah, i'd agree with that.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd suggest that smokes on their own circuit is more dangerous than smokes on an afci circuit that feeds other commonly used loads.


I agree, but thats how its done here.


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

I believe that it is technically not an outlet because you do not draw power from it you simply control it. The power is drawn from the lighting outlet that it controls which is located outside.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd suggest that smokes on their own circuit is more dangerous than smokes on an afci circuit that feeds other commonly used loads.


Why? The hard wired smokes I use have battery backup and beep when AC is removed...

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

moman said:


> I believe that it is technically not an outlet because you do not draw power from it you simply control it. The power is drawn from the lighting outlet that it controls which is located outside.


I agree with this. 

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


~Matt


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd suggest that smokes on their own circuit is more dangerous than smokes on an afci circuit that feeds other commonly used loads.


I agree, but unfortunately some jurisdictions don't see things this way


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Okay, another situation:

Master bedroom's walk-in closet is actually in the bathroom. The closet has a door but you must walk into the bathroom (which also has a door) to get to the closet. The closet has a light in it.
AFCI or not?
... under 2005NEC


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Okay, another situation:
> 
> Master bedroom's walk-in closet is actually in the bathroom. The closet has a door but you must walk into the bathroom (which also has a door) to get to the closet. The closet has a light in it.
> AFCI or not?
> ... under 2005NEC


Not AFCI protected as a walk-in closet is not a bedroom but a separate room by itself.

Chris


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

leland said:


> OUTLET; A point on the wiring system at wich CURRENT is TAKEN to supply utilization equipment.
> 
> A switch uses NO current. Therefore is NOT an outlet.


 
BS,,,current flows through the switch,so therefor current is being take TO THE SWITCH,,,,no way around it,,,,,,even if it were wirenuts,,,,,,same thing current is TAKEN TO THE WIRENUTS. It's an outlet in a bedroom AFCI


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

You are correct that current can flow through the switch. It is not however leaving the circuit through the switch like it would thru s receptacle or a light fixture. A switch is not an outlet.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> BS,,,current flows through the switch,so therefor current is being take TO THE SWITCH,,,,no way around it,,,,,,even if it were wirenuts,,,,,,same thing current is TAKEN TO THE WIRENUTS. It's an outlet in a bedroom AFCI


I disagree that a switch is an outlet.



> Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


Current is not taken at a switch, it is controlled by the switch.

A switch is a device not an outlet.



> Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.


Chris


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree 100% with Chris, it is not the intent to consider a switch as an outlet.


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