# Flat rate pricing vs. Hourly rate pricing



## Chris1971

I know this subject has been posted numerous times on this and other forums but, I'll ask it again. I'm looking at charging my customers a minimum fee to diagnose an electrical problem. Let's say: $60.00 Once I diagnose the electrical issue then, I would write up a work order stating cost to fix the problem. Any suggestions? Or would a person be better off charging an hourly rate? I'm leaning more towards the flat rate pricing. I feel I could make more doing it that way.


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## Mr Rewire

couple your diagnostic fee with a service charge and you will make money. it always seemed to be a problem with hourly rates when you ran into a clock watcher


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## Rockyd

Chris1971 said:


> I know this subject has been posted numerous times on this and other forums but, I'll ask it again. I'm looking at charging my customers a minimum fee to diagnose an electrical problem. Let's say: $60.00 Once I diagnose the electrical issue then, I would write up a work order stating cost to fix the problem. Any suggestions? Or would a person be better off charging an hourly rate? I'm leaning more towards the flat rate pricing. I feel I could make more doing it that way.


You think that way because you have talent for sale. Over time, i think a flat rate will make a good electrician a lot more than T & M. No time wasted on a walk through.


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## robnj772

Mr Rewire said:


> couple your diagnostic fee with a service charge and you will make money. it always seemed to be a problem with hourly rates when you ran into a clock watcher


 
Your posts should come with a disclaimer


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## Mr Rewire

robnj772 said:


> Your posts should come with a disclaimer


 Your right I need to let everyone know I have aquired a stalker :thumbsup:


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## jbrookers

Chris1971 said:


> I know this subject has been posted numerous times on this and other forums but, I'll ask it again. I'm looking at charging my customers a minimum fee to diagnose an electrical problem. Let's say: $60.00 Once I diagnose the electrical issue then, I would write up a work order stating cost to fix the problem. Any suggestions? Or would a person be better off charging an hourly rate? I'm leaning more towards the flat rate pricing. I feel I could make more doing it that way.


 
Yes, you should charge a flat rate for troubleshooting. what you charge is up to you but you should several levels since not all troubleshooting is the same (1/2 power out, no power, trip breaker, 500' underground circuit, etc.) 

Here are some challenges you will run into. Decide how to handle these before moving forward.

1. If you qoute over the phone, the customer will say "what...that much and you don't even fix it!" 
2 If you have a travel charge customers will argue that should include the troubleshooting.
3. Customers will ask you to "credit" the cost of the troubleshooting towards the repairs. I find this amazing and once had a customer who's logic had me owning him money by the time the work was done.
4. You will occausionally strikeout and lose your shirt.
5. You will find the problem quickly and your customers will feel cheated.
6. Customers will divide your troubleshooting rate by the amount of time it took you to find the problem and say that you are charging them some crazy amount per hour. Then they will tell you how much their husband makes an hour and his education and career path.
7. You will find the problem and the customer will choose to repair it themselves. 
8. You will not find the problem because there is no problem and since you didn't find a problem you shouldn't get paid. 
9. Your flat rate troubleshooting will turn into a whole house inspection with a lifetime nothing will ever break guarantee.


Other than that, flat rate troubleshooting is great!


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## Mr Rewire

jbrookers said:


> Yes, you should charge a flat rate for troubleshooting. what you charge is up to you but you should several levels since not all troubleshooting is the same (1/2 power out, no power, trip breaker, 500' underground circuit, etc.)
> 
> Here are some challenges you will run into. Decide how to handle these before moving forward.
> 
> 1. If you qoute over the phone, the customer will say "what...that much and you don't even fix it!"
> 2 If you have a travel charge customers will argue that should include the troubleshooting.
> 3. Customers will ask you to "credit" the cost of the troubleshooting towards the repairs. I find this amazing and once had a customer who's logic had me owning him money by the time the work was done.
> 4. You will occausionally strikeout and lose your shirt.
> 5. You will find the problem quickly and your customers will feel cheated.
> 6. Customers will divide your troubleshooting rate by the amount of time it took you to find the problem and say that you are charging them some crazy amount per hour. Then they will tell you how much their husband makes an hour and his education and career path.
> 7. You will find the problem and the customer will choose to repair it themselves.
> 8. You will not find the problem because there is no problem and since you didn't find a problem you shouldn't get paid.
> 9. Your flat rate troubleshooting will turn into a whole house inspection with a lifetime nothing will ever break guarantee.
> 
> 
> Other than that, flat rate troubleshooting is great!


 10. the other guy said he could do it for half that can you match it?


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## rnr electric

Itried flat rate for the first time a week ago, went awesome, pizza shop wanted 4 plugs added on counter,all EMT, charged 600 for it and was done in 1.5 hrs turned in invoice and she never asked about it. had i charged my hourly rate of 125 hr i would have drug it to 2 hrs and made 250.00 plus material. Might be a fluke, but i made about 500 on this as opposed to 350.00 so in this case it worked out.


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## rnr electric

i dont have time for alot of service work,so i usually send it to another guy (ec also) who is a one man band and allways slow. but at my next opportunity i am going to try this:
1) Diagnostic fee. once you have that done you allready know how to fix the problem
2) Repair fee
i have allways done T&M but about half on this forum say there is no money in it. it seems about a 70-30 split. but when you have nobody else to ask you have to try what the general consensus says.


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## macmikeman

rnr electric said:


> Itried flat rate for the first time a week ago, went awesome, pizza shop wanted 4 plugs added on counter,all EMT, charged 600 for it and was done in 1.5 hrs turned in invoice and she never asked about it. had i charged my hourly rate of 125 hr i would have drug it to 2 hrs and made 250.00 plus material. Might be a fluke, but i made about 500 on this as opposed to 350.00 so in this case it worked out.


BAM, There you go. See? Now some bonehead (I mean a real one..) will jump in and tell you that it wasn't "fair" to your customer and you are now a rip off. Screw them. You did it right. Welcome to electricians success.


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## electrictim510

As long as you can swing flat-rating, it is the best way. If you cannot flat-rate then you have no choice, you have to t&m. 

When flat-rating you have to keep in mind that just because you can fix a problem is a short amount of time, say 15 min. doesn't mean you should charge for 15 min. worth of work, or even an hour for that matter. Service work is not a 9-5 work schedule where you clock in and out at the customers place so don't nickel and dime the job give yourself some room to make some profit. If you get scared off by no's then it will be hard to do flat-rate, you will get a lot of "Oh my, that is way more than I thought it would be." this is really common because most people have never hired an electrician and would be just as shocked, if not more if they were charged t&m. 

As much as I hate being labeled or being compared to one; flat-raters are comparable to salesmen, but never should be seen as one, we are more of a consultant than a salesmen and as long as you remember that you should do well. As soon as the line is crossed from consultant to salesman you might run across some issues. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to be a salesman, but not very often at all in my opinion. Most homes and businesses have so many things that can be recommended that you will never have to 'sell' anything. 

There really should be a topic where the options for flat-raters (and T&Mers) can talk about things they recommend outside of what they were called out for (where the real money is at). I don't think it should have normal accessibility though. :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E

Mr Rewire said:


> 10. the other guy said he could do it for half that can you match it?


Nope see you later..:thumbsup:


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## electrictim510

jbrookers said:


> Yes, you should charge a flat rate for troubleshooting. what you charge is up to you but you should several levels since not all troubleshooting is the same (1/2 power out, no power, trip breaker, 500' underground circuit, etc.)
> 
> Here are some challenges you will run into. Decide how to handle these before moving forward.
> 
> 1. If you qoute over the phone, the customer will say "what...that much and you don't even fix it!"
> 2 If you have a travel charge customers will argue that should include the troubleshooting.
> 3. Customers will ask you to "credit" the cost of the troubleshooting towards the repairs. I find this amazing and once had a customer who's logic had me owning him money by the time the work was done.
> 4. You will occausionally strikeout and lose your shirt.
> 5. You will find the problem quickly and your customers will feel cheated.
> 6. Customers will divide your troubleshooting rate by the amount of time it took you to find the problem and say that you are charging them some crazy amount per hour. Then they will tell you how much their husband makes an hour and his education and career path.
> 7. You will find the problem and the customer will choose to repair it themselves.
> 8. You will not find the problem because there is no problem and since you didn't find a problem you shouldn't get paid.
> 9. Your flat rate troubleshooting will turn into a whole house inspection with a lifetime nothing will ever break guarantee.
> 
> 
> Other than that, flat rate troubleshooting is great!


Mr. Rewire - "10. the other guy said he could do it for half that can you match it?"

Once you can get over all of these to the point where they're not a shock and you have good come backs, you can do well flat-rating,


Good posts.


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## Mr Rewire

Once you decide to flat rate then you need to set those rates. Now comes the hard part and that is sticking to it.

You will lose jobs get over that one quickly because the jobs you get will more than make up for it.

Collect your money on the spot. 

Don't keep changing your rate.

don't let people on an internet discourage you.


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## 10492

Mr Rewire said:


> Once you decide to flat rate then you need to set those rates. Now comes the hard part and that is sticking to it.
> 
> You will lose jobs get over that one quickly because the jobs you get will more than make up for it.
> 
> Collect your money on the spot.
> 
> Don't keep changing your rate.
> 
> don't let people on an internet discourage you.


 

You need sales help, badly.:001_huh:


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## Mr Rewire

Dnkldorf said:


> You need sales help, badly.:001_huh:


 please expand upon this.


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## Tiger

rnr electric said:


> Itried flat rate for the first time a week ago, went awesome, pizza shop wanted 4 plugs added on counter,all EMT, charged 600 for it and was done in 1.5 hrs turned in invoice and she never asked about it. had i charged my hourly rate of 125 hr i would have drug it to 2 hrs and made 250.00 plus material. Might be a fluke, but i made about 500 on this as opposed to 350.00 so in this case it worked out.


I adopted flat rate or upfront pricing six years ago. In that time I've never heard anyone in residential service say "I tried flat rate for 6 months and it didn't work for me. I went back to T&M." 

BTW Chris, you can charge much more for troubleshooting. Troubleshooting is where experience counts. If you feel the fee is too high once you find the problem, you can do some work at no charge, or discount the fee. Clients will approve healthy diagnostic fees.


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## B4T

I call that a service call and the fee is $90.00 to fix or diagnose the problem..

A bad breaker or loose connection gets fixed for that price..

I state up front there is no way of me knowing if the problem is a minor or major repair..

Lugs in meter pans or on main breakers melting is a prime example of a major repair..

If the first thing you find is a melted lug.. keep checking to make sure the customer is getting $90.00 worth of your time..

A load test is a great thing to do when looking for other problems..


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## Mr Rewire

B4T said:


> I call that a service call and the fee is $90.00 to fix or diagnose the problem..
> 
> A bad breaker or loose connection gets fixed for that price..
> 
> I state up front there is no way of me knowing if the problem is a minor or major repair..
> 
> Lugs in meter pans or on main breakers melting is a prime example of a major repair..
> 
> If the first thing you find is a melted lug.. keep checking to make sure the customer is getting $90.00 worth of your time..
> 
> A load test is a great thing to do when looking for other problems..


 Its not your time that has value it is your knowledge. If you find the problem in five minutes it is due to that knowledge and the customer has gotten thier moneys worth.


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## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> Its not your time that has value it is your knowledge. If you find the problem in five minutes it is due to that knowledge and the customer has gotten their moneys worth.


It still looks better if you spend more than a few minutes looking at the customers electrical system..

You just might find other things to fix and running out the door with $90.00 in my pocket is NOT my goal..

I want another customer who will call me and refer me to family and friends if they are looking to have work done..


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## user4818

Mr Rewire said:


> Its not your time that has value it is your knowledge. If you find the problem in five minutes it is due to that knowledge and the customer has gotten thier moneys worth.


I agree. Some problems lend themselves to needing more time to find the issue, but quickly diagnosing the problem and telling the customer the issue lends itself to the image of professionalism and superiority. When someone calls to have a problem solved, they want it done as quickly as possible with the minimum of interruption. Noodling around and giving the appearance that you're searching for the issue is foolish and silly.


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> I agree. Some problems lend themselves to needing more time to find the issue, but quickly diagnosing the problem and telling the customer the issue lends itself to the image of professionalism and superiority. When someone calls to have a problem solved, they want it done as quickly as possible with the minimum of interruption. *Noodling around and* *giving the appearance that you're searching for the issue is foolish and silly*.


Nope.. nothing wrong with spending time checking out the electrical system..

Running out the door in a few minutes just makes you look bad..

Nothing wrong with having people think they got their money's worth..


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## user4818

B4T said:


> Nope.. nothing wrong with spending time checking out the electrical system..


I agree if the purpose is to sell additional work. But if that's not going to happen, you're wasting your time. When the appliance guy comes to fix your dryer, does he take the whole thing apart just to "check it out." No, of course not, because it's a waste of time. 



> Running out the door in a few minutes just makes you look bad..


In your opinion. 



> Nothing wrong with having people think they got their money's worth..


And that is completely subjective.


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> I agree if the purpose is to sell additional work. But if that's not going to happen, you're wasting your time. When the appliance guy comes to fix your dryer, does he take the whole thing apart just to "check it out." No, of course not, because it's a waste of time.


We are not talking about appliances.. :no:

At $90.00 for the service call, you are just about breaking even..

My point is for YOU to get your money's worth by gaining another customer and you have a better chance if THEY think you are worth the $90.00..


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## user4818

B4T said:


> We are not talking about appliances.. :no:


Really? Knock me over with a feather. I had no idea. 

I was making a comparison. You don't see other types of service _technicians_ doing "busy work" to give the appearance that they are doing something. They get in and get out. Why do electricians feel compelled to hang around?


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## user4818

B4T said:


> At $90.00 for the service call, you are just about breaking even..


Uh, maybe _you_ are breaking even. Speak for yourself. I thought the point of being in business was to make money, not break even. If you can't make money on a service call, why even bother?



B4T said:


> My point is for YOU to get your money's worth by gaining another customer and you have a better chance if THEY think you are worth the $90.00..


And that can happen whether you are there for 5 minutes or an hour. As Marc says, you have to sell the sizzle, not the steak.


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## Mr Rewire

If I call plumber because the toilet wont flush nand he shows up when he says he will and getts the job done quickly and leaves the house neat then I don't care if he hangs around and checks the faucetts.

I work a resort arera The calls I get are people who want it fixed so they can get back to their vacation so the quicker the better we do a line of site upsell with these customers and we will always get called again .

10 minutes thirty minutes or an hour it all gets charged the same for a diagnostic.


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> It still looks better if you spend more than a few minutes looking at the customers electrical system..
> 
> You just might find other things to fix and running out the door with $90.00 in my pocket is NOT my goal..
> 
> I want another customer who will call me and refer me to family and friends if they are looking to have work done..



I agree with that.

It is allways better to check things out and point out to the customer any issues the should be repaired in the near future .


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## Mr Rewire

HARRY304E said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> It is allways better to check things out and point out to the customer any issues the should be repaired in the near future .


 Upsell :thumbup:


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## HARRY304E

Peter D said:


> I agree. Some problems lend themselves to needing more time to find the issue, but quickly diagnosing the problem and telling the customer the issue lends itself to the image of professionalism and superiority. When someone calls to have a problem solved, they want it done as quickly as possible with the minimum of interruption. Noodling around and giving the appearance that you're searching for the issue is foolish and silly.


Customers don't know how long Electrical should take they just want the problem fixed right the first time.

I here it all the time the last guy charged me $200 to change the circuit breaker he was here for 5 min.

A few hours later the new breaker was tripping so he did not know what he was doing because he did not fix the problem..:no:


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## dronai

*UpSell*



HARRY304E said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> It is allways better to check things out and point out to the customer any issues the should be repaired in the near future .


Agreed ! 

Using some of the post I read lately, I just sold much more to a customer, than I would in the past.


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## dronai

*Flat price*

I do keep getting calls (many) from my internet page, That ask, how much to add an outlet above the fireplace for their new flatscreen TV. Best Buy is coming to install the rest.

I ask the question, how close is the nearest outlet, over the phone. They usually say there's one on either side with-in ten ft. I quote, about $160.00. I have never got one of those jobs ? 

What do they think $40.00 ?


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## electrictim510

dronai said:


> I do keep getting calls (many) from my internet page, That ask, how much to add an outlet above the fireplace for their new flatscreen TV. Best Buy is coming to install the rest.
> 
> I ask the question, how close is the nearest outlet, over the phone. They usually say there's one on either side with-in ten ft. I quote, about $160.00. I have never got one of those jobs ?
> 
> What do they think $40.00 ?


This is why I do not do phone quotes.


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## HARRY304E

dronai said:


> I do keep getting calls (many) from my internet page, That ask, how much to add an outlet above the fireplace for their new flatscreen TV. Best Buy is coming to install the rest.
> 
> I ask the question, how close is the nearest outlet, over the phone. They usually say there's one on either side with-in ten ft. I quote, about $160.00. I have never got one of those jobs ?
> 
> What do they think $40.00 ?


A job like that you must look at because it will definatly cost way more then $160 you will have holes to patch,,So if Best buy is telling them it will cost $40 for adding an outlet above a fire place they are nuts,.

Besides my minimum is $160..:thumbup:


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## electrictim510

I'm not going to quote everyone here but I think I am right down the middle on the debate on time vs. amount charged topic. 

I personally agree that our time to fix a problem has no relevance to a point. What I mean by this is that if we fix a problem we have no obligation to be there for any certain time(customer needs to now this up-front "we certainly might find it in a couple of minutes, but that is good for both of us right?") if we flat-rate the amount.

On the other hand; If you do find it in good time, don't have a pressing matter to attend to, I think there should be a good amount of time making the customer feel like they have 'got their money's worth' (even though we know they have customers always weigh it differently than we do).

When you take time after you already basically know the problem to fully go through the place and see what else you can come across (being realistic and fair of course), it helps to find other work and it also gets the customer more relaxed to point out things they want done.

I have used this balance technique for many years and as long as I stick to it I do pretty damn good. When the economy was good I worked for a company where they had 200+ service techs, plumbing, electrical, hvac, and I always managed to stay on top sells lists(mostly top 5) by balancing my time this way and learning to gauge the customers feel for when they feel they have received good service.

So IMHO I think everyone is right to a point because the truth is right down the middle of what all of you are defending. :thumbup:


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## dronai

HARRY304E said:


> A job like that you must look at because it will definatly cost way more then $160 you will have holes to patch,,So if Best buy is telling them it will cost $40 for adding an outlet above a fire place they are nuts,.
> 
> Besides my minimum is $160..:thumbup:


 

I tell them that I have a patchers name I can give them. 

Best Buy is installing only the Low Voltage, and Mount.

I said, what do they expect to pay $40.00 !!! not that BB is charging that.


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## dronai

electrictim510 said:


> This is why I do not do phone quotes.


 
With the cost of gasoline !!! I do it all the time. But in residential, you can visualize most request, and give a ballpark quote, a and I say typical, because I will adjust when I get there or verify.


By the way Tim, thanks to you, I made about $1000. last week, on something I would have just waited on. :thumbsup:


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## electrictim510

dronai said:


> With the cost of gasoline !!! I do it all the time. But in residential, you can visualize most request, and give a ballpark quote, a and I say typical, because I will adjust when I get there or verify.
> 
> 
> By the way Tim, thanks to you, I made about $1000. last week, on something I would have just waited on. :thumbsup:


Cool, man congratz! That made my day.  I love hearing that others have done well, especially if it is partially because of taking my advice. :thumbsup:

What did you do?


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## dronai

*Free Estimates*



electrictim510 said:


> This is why I do not do phone quotes.


 
I stopped doing free estimates, unless it's with-in a few miles. Gas cost too much. I charge a $35. minimum, and will waive, if they take the job.


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## TheBrushMan007

dronai said:


> I do keep getting calls (many) from my internet page, That ask, how much to add an outlet above the fireplace for their new flatscreen TV. Best Buy is coming to install the rest.
> 
> I ask the question, how close is the nearest outlet, over the phone. They usually say there's one on either side with-in ten ft. I quote, about $160.00. I have never got one of those jobs ?
> 
> What do they think $40.00 ?


When you give a price over the phone, the only thing a customer can base their op is on price and price alone.
Customers need to know the value of using your company other than price.


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## HARRY304E

dronai said:


> I tell them that I have a patchers name I can give them.
> 
> Best Buy is installing only the Low Voltage, and Mount.
> 
> I said, what do they expect to pay $40.00 !!! not that BB is charging that.


I see i mis read your post..


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## TheBrushMan007

That's why we charge a dispatch fee to go out, to cover costs.


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## electrictim510

dronai said:


> I stopped doing free estimates, unless it's with-in a few miles. Gas cost too much. I charge a $35. minimum, and will waive, if they take the job.


Great! This works really good for us, we book 90% of calls this way. Kind of a way to feel out your prospects seriousness of actually doing work rather than fish around for lowest rates. I do free estimates but they're very few and it is very situational. Even if I am down the street I still try to get a waivable service fee so that the person knows they have something to lose by telling me to leave. Even if they do tell me that they will shop I give them some type of incentive to call back, never be just another guy who gave an estimate, set yourself apart from your competition... in a good way. :laughing:


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## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> When you give a price over the phone, the only thing a customer can base their op is on price and price alone.
> Customers need to know the value of using your company other than price.


 


Ok, so how would you go abaout handling this type of call ? Make the drive, and try to close the sale in person ? Usually they say, it's for when the TV gets there in a couple of weeks.

I get car repair quotes over the phone all the time.


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## Mr Rewire

dronai said:


> I stopped doing free estimates, unless it's with-in a few miles. Gas cost too much. I charge a $35. minimum, and will waive, if they take the job.


 I don't do free estimates either I just add it into overhead on all jobs . I find at least in this area if I phone quote I wont get the job like I do when I go out but if I ask for $$ for an estimate I wont get asked out.

When you are in an area with no license required every unemployed electrician is hanging a shingle so people are wanting three bids to hang a ceiling fan.


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## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> That's why we charge a dispatch fee to go out, to cover costs.


 

Nevermind, you just answered my question here. disreguard my last post


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## dronai

Mr Rewire said:


> I don't do free estimates either I just add it into overhead on all jobs . I find at least in this area if I phone quote I wont get the job like I do when I go out but if I ask for $$ for an estimate I wont get asked out.
> 
> When you are in an area with no license required every unemployed electrician is hanging a shingle so people are wanting three bids to hang a ceiling fan.


Phone quote-
Fan is flat fee- $120.00 if outlet is there
No outlet with attic- $200. using remote (no switch)
If the fan is pain, or fan light high end, more assembly, add $$
Downstairs, with structure above, needing holes across joist, have to se to quote, but usually starts at $300.


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## Mr Rewire

dronai said:


> Phone quote-
> Fan is flat fee- $120.00 if outlet is there
> No outlet with attic- $200. using remote (no switch)
> If the fan is pain, or fan light high end, more assembly, add $$
> Downstairs, with structure above, needing holes across joist, have to se to quote, but usually starts at $300.


 Sorry to have bothered you a guy just showed up and said he would do it for $75.00 .


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## TheBrushMan007

dronai said:


> Ok, so how would you go abaout handling this type of call ? Make the drive, and try to close the sale in person ? Usually they say, it's for when the TV gets there in a couple of weeks.
> 
> I get car repair quotes over the phone all the time.


You can bring your car to their shop. Our customers can not bring their home to our shops.

I tell them the truth. I can not give an accurate price unless I look at it.
I tell them I can send a technician over. What would be a convenient time?
You can install the outlet and cable without the tv there. We do this all the time.
The technician will sell the job, do the job right then and there.
We also have standards, procedures and sells training in place.
These are a must, if you want to have a successful service department.


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## electrictim510

In service, if you're good at flat-rate the possibilities but there are risks, just like this example of a customer calling for a flat screen install.

Scenario 1; Sure, it will cost about $160, low but considering that you have competition in this range you give em' the price. Customer calls you back anjd says go for it. You get there and it's lath and plaster walls with all types of crap in the way and the persons house is so tediously kept and is very specific about how their stuff needs to be handled, and needs help emptying the china cabinet that is packed with stuff because the plug is behind the cabinet(they conveniently did not tell you about this detail). 

Scenario 2; "Sure, it might cost somewhere in the range of $160 if the scenario is exactly the way you are making it out to be, maybe even cheaper, but this all depends on factors I cannot see over the phone. If it's worth getting a solid estimate I can come give you a better estimate, all I charge is $20, this really just covers a little time and gas, and we have everything needed to do the jobs like this on the spot. We can even waive the service fee if you do the job. We only have the service fee to cover our expenses for those customers who are not serious about doing work that they cal us out for, but you seem serious about getting work done aren't you Mr. Homeowner?...
You may even ask for their address (or cross streets) if they seem hesitant and gauge negotiating the show up fee to a lower amount or even a free estimate if you're in the area and they're just scared of the possibility of coming out of pocket for a job they just cannot afford.

In service you can be safe and sit at home most of the time because you want all of your time to be accounted for (nothing wrong with that). Or you can choose to invest some extra time and money in the coin acquiring a new customer by making price only one aspect of the job and not the determining factor.


----------



## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> You can bring your car to their shop. Our customers can not bring their home to our shops.
> 
> I tell them the truth. I can not give an accurate price unless I look at it.
> I tell them I can send a technician over. What would be a convenient time?
> You can install the outlet and cable without the tv there. We do this all the time.
> The technician will sell the job, do the job right then and there.
> We also have standards, procedures and sells training in place.
> These are a must, if you want to have a successful service department.


 
Agree with you on all, I am just getting old, and lazy !!! I used to be young, and hungry !! Now that i'm solo again, it's getting harder, and harder.


----------



## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> Sorry to have bothered you a guy just showed up and said he would do it for $75.00 .


Not all jobs are meant for us. We need to keep the unlicensed guys doing their illegal stuff, and the unskilled guys who don't know their worth busy so we can catch the bigger fish.


----------



## dronai

Mr Rewire said:


> Sorry to have bothered you a guy just showed up and said he would do it for $75.00 .


 
I say GREAT, as long as you have good fire insurance !


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> You can bring your car to their shop. Our customers can not bring their home to our shops.
> 
> I tell them the truth. I can not give an accurate price unless I look at it.
> I tell them I can send a technician over. What would be a convenient time?
> You can install the outlet and cable without the tv there. We do this all the time.
> The technician will sell the job, do the job right then and there.
> We also have standards, procedures and sells training in place.
> These are a must, if you want to have a successful service department.


 Well thats not totally true I had a customer send me pictures from their iphone boy did it make a difference.


----------



## Mr Rewire

dronai said:


> I say GREAT, as long as you have good fire insurance !


 Why would they need fire insurance do you often use false scare tatics to try and sell jobs :no:


----------



## electrictim510

dronai said:


> Agree with you on all, I am just getting old, and lazy !!! I used to be young, and hungry !! Now that i'm solo again, it's getting harder, and harder.


I totally understand. Service can be stressful at times, and sometimes we need to talk a little more than we want to when convincing a customer of what they need. It takes time to get use to who is serious about getting the work done and who is just wanting a hack job at whatever rate is cheaper. I would consider strongly hiring a guy(should be plenty out there in this economy) who has done service to take the calls under a commission basis so that you won't have to go on calls that seem like a pain.


----------



## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> Why would they need fire insurance do you often use false scare tatics to try and sell jobs :no:


How is it false? Have you seen the type of damage that comes from hacks doing shotty work? I have and I have seen fires that have come from them also.


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## Mr Rewire

electrictim510 said:


> Not all jobs are meant for us. We need to keep the unlicensed guys doing their illegal stuff, and the unskilled guys who don't know their worth busy so we can catch the bigger fish.


 In these hard times it would surprise you how many licensed skilled guys would jump at this I have read more than one person post that keeping the family fed is priority. Most of residential service doesn't involve an inspector anyway.


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## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> In these hard times it would surprise you how many licensed skilled guys would jump at this I have read more than one person post that keeping the family fed is priority. Most of residential service doesn't involve an inspector anyway.


You're right. And as they are doing that job I am sitting back waiting for the phone to ring for a job that is worth my time. while they are too busy getting the small job done I can show up within minutes to service real paying customers. This reason is why we pulled out of the pennysaver, calls like this all the time.


----------



## Mr Rewire

electrictim510 said:


> How is it false? Have you seen the type of damage that comes from hacks doing shotty work? I have and I have seen fires that have come from them also.


 This is something thats gets thrown out alot it would be interesting to see actual statistics of home fires and how many were a direct cause by bad workmanship. The number probably would surprise alot of people.The last two fire jobs I did were caused by back stabbed receptacles an accepted practice of licensed electricians.


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## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> This is something thats gets thrown out alot it would be interesting to see actual statistics of home fires and how many were a direct cause by bad workmanship. The number probably would surprise alot of people.The last two fire jobs I did were caused by back stabbed receptacles an accepted practice of licensed electricians.


If this is true or not, the simplest way to let someone know that your work is not the same as some hack wanting to lower rates to a ridiculous amount (this is the average reason in my opinion, I have done follow-ups on customers and this is what happens cheap price, cheap unprofessional job) is to let them know it is dangerous. The customer doesn't know the difference unless safety is stressed and I am not even hearing a defense that all electricians are made equal, because most cheap electrical jobs I have seen have been hack work. Just did a call the other day where the lady said she had w breaker replaced a while back on another circuit (currently working) where the lights were flickering and the 'electrician' changed the breaker and it works now. $140 to troubleshoot and replace the breaker. "Sounds like a cheap price, you got a good deal it seems, but what was the problem? Breakers do not typically make lights flicker, this is usually from a bad connection." "Oh, well I don't know, he just replaced the breaker and everything works, here is the invoice" (Troubleshoot, replace breaker $140, is all it said, not detail). I check the breaker out and it has a bunch of white dust around the bussing area that hold onto the breaker. Well the idiot changed the breaker to a burnt bussing so the new breaker he installed burnt up also. This is not an isolated incident, I see it all the time.


----------



## dronai

Mr Rewire said:


> Why would they need fire insurance do you often use false scare tatics to try and sell jobs :no:


 

YES ! We usually both laugh !! They know I'm yanking em.


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## Mr Rewire

dronai said:


> YES ! We usually both laugh !! They know I'm yanking em.


 I usually just let them know we will be happy to come out and fix it when it quits working.


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## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> I usually just let them know we will be happy to come out and fix it when it quits working.


This is more of my typical response also, or something along these lines.


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## dronai

Mr Rewire said:


> Why would they need fire insurance do you often use false scare tatics to try and sell jobs :no:


 
After they say they got it for 1/2 $ you can also use the "Do you have small children " ? Then just reply OOOOh ok.


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## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> You can bring your car to their shop. Our customers can not bring their home to our shops..


 
The auto repair places, all give their repair quotes over the phone. Unless it's diagnostic repair, then they give you a range.


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## 10492

Mr Rewire said:


> please expand upon this.


No problem.

You are only as good as your flat rate pricing mumbo jumbo book says you are.

You are only selling your book of prices. You ain't selling you, or what you can do, you are stuck selling a book of prices, and hope people buy it.

A great salesman wouldn't need a book or anything, and a good salesman might need just a couple notes.


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## electrictim510

Dnkldorf said:


> No problem.
> 
> You are only as good as your flat rate pricing mumbo jumbo book says you are.
> 
> You are only selling your book of prices. You ain't selling you, or what you can do, you are stuck selling a book of prices, and hope people buy it.
> 
> A great salesman wouldn't need a book and a good salesman might need just a couple notes.


I have to call bull**** on this one. The pricebook is only a guideline, you must of never done flat-rate pricing before, or at least not with a real service company. A great salesman has nothing to do with where he gets his prices from, or what his prices are for that matter. A good salesman can range anywhere in the broad spectrum of the different aspects of the sale. More than anything a good salesman makes price not the main reason for the sale, so anyone who just gives a price out of a book and leaves is not using it right and should not use it. Any company I have worked for where we did flat-rate service if guys continued to do this kind of 'service' they would be fired.

And I myself have probably fired dozens for this reason alone.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Dnkldorf said:


> No problem.
> 
> You are only as good as your flat rate pricing mumbo jumbo book says you are.
> 
> You are only selling your book of prices. You ain't selling you, or what you can do, you are stuck selling a book of prices, and hope people buy it.
> 
> A great salesman wouldn't need a book or anything, and a good salesman might need just a couple notes.


 My uncle sold cars he always told me you arent selling a car you are selling a payment.

Flat rate is just a sales tool just like a clean shirt with the company name on it . You are not selling the tools you are selling your service with the aid of the tools. 
Simple things like the difference between saying "this will cost you $100" and saying "your investment will be $100"


----------



## TheBrushMan007

dronai said:


> The auto repair places, all give their repair quotes over the phone. Unless it's diagnostic repair, then they give you a range.


It still goes back to my first point, we our selling value. Why the customer would benefit from using us. Not by price alone.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Dnkldorf said:


> No problem.
> 
> You are only as good as your flat rate pricing mumbo jumbo book says you are.
> 
> You are only selling your book of prices. You ain't selling you, or what you can do, you are stuck selling a book of prices, and hope people buy it.
> 
> A great salesman wouldn't need a book or anything, and a good salesman might need just a couple notes.


That's like saying a good estimator does not need software. Companies that's have a desire to become more than a one man band or a one man band and an apprentice, will need the tools to properly price jobs when they are doing serivce work.


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## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> It still goes back to my first point, we our selling value. Why the customer would benefit from using us. Not by price alone.


 
Do you have a good book recommendation ? On the subject.


I just ordered this one "The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Profitable Decision Making" Recommended off the Mike Holt site. But this is not good for sales techniques, in a service.


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## electrictim510

Anything by Brian Tracy.  "psychology of selling" is a good one. Another one is called Selling higher priced items in a lower price market, or something like that. Reason that one is good is because most of the prices we give can be beaten by the low price foolery that some contractors go by, helps you get past the price obstacle. 

Main thing is to get to know what is a realistic price for the jobs at hand but this comes from experience. For instance I price at a higher hourly rate when figuring a flatrate for troubleshooting and more critical wiring than I would for a simple open wall circuit extension.


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## ratrod56

B4T said:


> A load test is a great thing to do when looking for other problems..


 
How do you do a load test? Dumb question maybe? Besides plugging in hairdryer, turning everything on, stuff like that? I love tools,, Is there one for this? Are you gonna say megger? I have used one in industrial but not residential?


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## brian john

ratrod56 said:


> How do you do a load test? Dumb question maybe? Besides plugging in hairdryer, turning everything on, stuff like that? I love tools,, Is there one for this? Are you gonna say megger? I have used one in industrial but not residential?


 
How do you do a load test? Depends on what you are testing for. We load test generators and UPS systems utilizing 3 phase resistive load banks (sometimes inductive) up to 5 meg.

Marc has a resistive load tester that plugs into a utility meter (I THINK) he will have to post links for that.

We have completed varibale load Voltage Drop test with a variac and 3kw single phase unit heater. Varying load from 1-20 amps.


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## 10492

Mr Rewire said:


> .
> 
> Flat rate is just a sales tool just like a clean shirt with the company name on it . You are not selling the tools you are selling your service with the aid of the tools.


I would agree to an certain degree.

One of the things with flat rating, when having electricians in the field, is you have to tech them to be salespeople first, and electricians secondly. 

That doesn't sound too easy.

People are not a constant, but that book has to be. The book, it's format, font, pictures, ect has to be the item that sells. Not the electrician from CHI Institute who doesn't even understand the NEC code book thoroughly.

If i'ts just you, and you have a flat rate book you use, good for you, hope it works well.

But you then are selling yourself, and your service. 

IMO


----------



## electrictim510

Dnkldorf said:


> I would agree to an certain degree.
> 
> One of the things with flat rating, when having electricians in the field, is you have to tech them to be salespeople first, and electricians secondly.
> 
> That doesn't sound too easy.
> 
> People are not a constant, but that book has to be. The book, it's format, font, pictures, ect has to be the item that sells. Not the electrician from CHI Institute who doesn't even understand the NEC code book thoroughly.
> 
> If i'ts just you, and you have a flat rate book you use, good for you, hope it works well.
> 
> But you then are selling yourself, and your service.
> 
> IMO


This would all depend on how the company is ran. I personally do not use the pricebook like that necessarily. Most of my customers never see our pricebook, and I rarely look at it, maybe once a month. I use my own judgement for what the prices are based on what I have done in the past. Someone new to service or someone working for a company that specifically goes 'by the book' would have a little different way of doing it.

I agree that teaching someone how to be a salesman has a large part of his/her success (and of course the company) when it comes to service, but where some people go wrong is they become like you said 'a salesman first and electrician second'. This mentality is hardest to not cross depending on how the technician is paid. Any good flat-rater has some kind of incentive to upsell, or he will not want to do so, it's just a wasted effort, because of this the line is sometimes crossed because of greediness. This is not always the case but has given us flat-raters a bad name at times.

Teaching a tech to be a salesman/electrician is one of the hardest things to do as a service company. Usually to get a good service guy you have to be hiring all year, shuffling through a bunch of apps to tell 80% of 'qualified electricians' no to run calls with them one a trial basis of usually a day or two to tell 90% of that 20% that they cannot do it, and out of that small percentage left over maybe 2-3 max will actually turn out okay and you're lucky if 1 becomes a star performer. Once you find one though; it is well worth it!


----------



## 10492

electrictim510 said:


> This would all depend on how the company is ran. I personally do not use the pricebook like that necessarily. Most of my customers never see our pricebook, and I rarely look at it, maybe once a month. I use my own judgement for what the prices are based on what I have done in the past. Someone new to service or someone working for a company that specifically goes 'by the book' would have a little different way of doing it.
> 
> I agree that teaching someone how to be a salesman has a large part of his/her success (and of course the company) when it comes to service, but where some people go wrong is they become like you said 'a salesman first and electrician second'. This mentality is hardest to not cross depending on how the technician is paid. Any good flat-rater has some kind of incentive to upsell, or he will not want to do so, it's just a wasted effort, because of this the line is sometimes crossed because of greediness. This is not always the case but has given us flat-raters a bad name at times.
> 
> Teaching a tech to be a salesman/electrician is one of the hardest things to do as a service company. Usually to get a good service guy you have to be hiring all year, shuffling through a bunch of apps to tell 80% of 'qualified electricians' no to run calls with them one a trial basis of usually a day or two to tell 90% of that 20% that they cannot do it, and out of that small percentage left over maybe 2-3 max will actually turn out okay and you're lucky if 1 becomes a star performer. Once you find one though; it is well worth it!


 
+1...:thumbsup:


----------



## nitro71

Here's why I don't like flat rate. 

You go do a small job for a customer. They almost always have other electrical issues they want looked at. At this point you're already there, on the clock, you're making money. If you are T&M they know exactly what it is costing them. If you're flat rate you have to go look at your book and tell the customer, that will be an additional X amount of dollars. Seems to me there is more chance that a customer will not want to spend the additional money if you discuss the price vs them just knowing you are on the clock.

How to you flat rate going to the supply house for material? What if traffic is bad or there is construction or the supply house doesn't have the material and you have to go elsewhere. Flat rate, you just ate that cost.

With flat rate you have to have list for everything. Last thing I want is another list to maintain. Now you have to update your list when material prices change. Take #4 copper for example. If you had flat rate for a service upgrade that price needs to increase with the recent copper price increases.

Everyone can run their business like they want but to me flat rate doesn't make sense. I have to wonder if those that push it on this site are affiliated with some of the big chains.


----------



## The Lightman

nitro71 said:


> I have to wonder if those that push it on this site are affiliated with some of the big chains.


One of the biggest advocates/success stories of flat rate here is totally independent and is geographically close to me. IF I chose to market to the residential market, I would not hesitate to utilize his method of pricing which takes all of the concerns that you mentioned and many more business matters into account. I believe that the electronic version is periodically updated when you subscribe.


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## dronai

Having done business for a long time. I worked for generals, both bidding, and T &M. So automatically I used this method for service. The problem is, I got real good at troubleshooting, and installs, where I was screwing myself, getting the job done so fast, and not making enough $. People like to know where they stand in price up front. No one likes an open checkbook. I am now after joining this forum, almost strickly Flat rate per item. Just build your own assemblys with common install items. The example of the guy who bid the pizza recept @ $600. and otherwise would have made less than half, is a perfect example.


----------



## nitro71

dronai said:


> Having done business for a long time. I worked for generals, both bidding, and T &M. So automatically I used this method for service. The problem is, I got real good at troubleshooting, and installs, where I was screwing myself, getting the job done so fast, and not making enough $. People like to know where they stand in price up front. No one likes an open checkbook. I am now after joining this forum, almost strickly Flat rate per item. Just build your own assemblys with common install items. The example of the guy who bid the pizza recept @ $600. and otherwise would have made less than half, is a perfect example.


What happens to that customer when he needs another receptacle. Calls around and the next electrician tells him he over paid by at least a couple hundred dollars. Personally I probably would not hire that contractor again.


----------



## 10492

nitro71 said:


> Everyone can run their business like they want but to me flat rate doesn't make sense.


 
Here is one of my problems with it.

If I were to price a basement remodel according to a defined book, I would make x amount. That book tells me what to charge, and what the customer can expect to pay.

The book won't let me charge any more, or charge less for one thing so I can mark up another.

I'd rather bid the jobs, and give the customer a price/job complete than showing them a book.


----------



## The Lightman

Dnkldorf said:


> I'd rather bid the jobs, and give the customer a price/job complete than showing them a book.


Put it on an iPad. You can also get paid through it.


----------



## dronai

nitro71 said:


> What happens to that customer when he needs another receptacle. Calls around and the next electrician tells him he over paid by at least a couple hundred dollars. Personally I probably would not hire that contractor again.


 

Just be fair to yourself, and the customer. 

* Listen to the service contractors on here. You will stay self employed.

Lots of Sharp Bus/EC's on here


----------



## nitro71

Dnkldorf said:


> Here is one of my problems with it.
> 
> If I were to price a basement remodel according to a defined book, I would make x amount. That book tells me what to charge, and what the customer can expect to pay.
> 
> The book won't let me charge any more, or charge less for one thing so I can mark up another.
> 
> I'd rather bid the jobs, and give the customer a price/job complete than showing them a book.


Flat rate is a bidding tool for smaller work task the way I see it. Not even sure what I'm discussing on this topic anymore. I've lost my way.. :laughing:


----------



## dronai

Dnkldorf said:


> Here is one of my problems with it.
> 
> If I were to price a basement remodel according to a defined book, I would make x amount. That book tells me what to charge, and what the customer can expect to pay.
> 
> The book won't let me charge any more, or charge less for one thing so I can mark up another.
> 
> I'd rather bid the jobs, and give the customer a price/job complete than showing them a book.


 
* I'm talking residential service, or light commercial

Remodel/newconstruction pricing is different.


Service calls- And you can always adjust your pricing. Why show them your book ? Someone on here sells a ready made unit cost software. Or just make your own assembly prices, and adjust to fit the difficulty.


----------



## electrictim510

There is a little confusion on what you guys think flat-rate is. It's not some book of laws written in concrete where the electrician feels lost looking through it and feels compelled to quote straight from it. The Flat-rate book is not even necessary to do flat-rate work. It's kind of like bidding all your jobs instead of t&m, thats all. 

I think the perfect balance is like nitro said, use the book for small jobs but where it is not realistic because of the job size or some other factor, just bid it like you would a service or whole house rewire.

There will ALWAYS be another electrician out there that is cheaper than you. I do not believe in going by the 'standard rate' all the time because I think it is way too low for service work. $75-$100 an hour is fine if you're doing a large job but service is not clock in-clock out work. I make good money all the time at the rates that are a good amount higher than what everyone else is charging and I have very few issues with "you charged me too much". No job is exactly the same so no other electrician (hater) can say that you are charging too much when they have no idea what/why.

Flat-rate is something you have to experience to understand, try it with a t&m customer who says "what if it takes you a long time?" If you know it is some straight forward job say "How about I charge you the average price no matter how long it takes, sound fair?" Then just charge for the average time +a little bit for invoicing/travel time etc. and get it done asap. and take your time invoicing and talking about other projects they have, which otherwise you cannot charge for.


----------



## electrictim510

Another thing that the book does is it backs up the price you gave them, it makes them at ease that they're not being gouged unfairly vs. what someone else would of been charged. They see the book and assume everyone else gets that book rate too so they feel a little more at ease. It also gives you the 'good guy' points when you give them a discount on the book rate.


----------



## 10492

electrictim510 said:


> There is a little confusion on what you guys think flat-rate is. It's not some book of laws written in concrete where the electrician feels lost looking through it and feels compelled to quote straight from it.


Depends who you ask. We've had this dicsussion before, and the concensus seemed to be, you have a book that lists tasks and has prices listed for each task. You also have a column that lists prices if the customer is a "preferred" customer, or one that "purchases" some sort of protection plan at a discount. 

You give these books to your techs, teach them how to use them, and then you can update them as needed.

That was flat-rating using a pricing book, and people paid good money to make these books up.

Everyone else was a bid type pricer, and last but not least were the T&M's.

We changing things again on me? I can't keep up.


----------



## electrictim510

Dnkldorf said:


> Depends who you ask. We've had this dicsussion before, and the concensus seemed to be, you have a book that lists tasks and has prices listed for each task. You also have a column that lists prices if the customer is a "preferred" customer, or one that "purchases" some sort of protection plan at a discount.
> 
> You give these books to your techs, teach them how to use them, and then you can update them as needed.
> 
> That was flat-rating using a pricing book, and people paid good money to make these books up.
> 
> Everyone else was a bid type pricer, and last but not least were the T&M's.
> 
> We changing things again on me? I can't keep up.


What I am saying is; Flat-rate varies depending on the company. Most go by the book because it is easier to price/pay techs. The company I work for and the ones I have worked for in the past pay commission so whatever you invoice you get paid on so there does not need to be some concrete book, we have one but it is up to the techs discretion.


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## electrictim510

"That was flat-rating using a pricing book, and people paid good money to make these books up."

True, but you don't NEED to use theirs. I made my own and the company I work for made theirs. Resi service is REALLY straight forward to make a pricing book for.

And to touch on the price fluctuation thing; When you price well you are making enough to make up very well for small changes in copper and gas prices. You will make at least 50% more flat-rating so small price jumps don't need to made very often.


----------



## oldman

Nitro - if that customer is calling around, you already lost them

Amazing - 4+ yrs and dnk still does not grasp the basic concept of flat rate. Simply amazing


----------



## electrictim510

oldman said:


> Nitro - if that customer is calling around, you already lost them
> 
> Amazing - 4+ yrs and dnk still does not grasp the basic concept of flat rate. Simply amazing


I think dnk is reasonably confused. When I started flat-rate I could not wrap my head around it at first. After I got use to it, I could not imagine t&m and have not done it since 2001 at least. And I also changed things up on the subject by adding that book prices are not concrete which is not the average system I think.


----------



## 10492

electrictim510 said:


> I think dnk is reasonably confused.


 
I am not confused. Don't let my stalker tell you otherwise.

Flat rate is so many different things to so many different people.The only thing they seem to have in common is how to argue that T&M and bid work doesn't work and how they can't make money at it.

T&M and bid work guys, can't see the sense in flat rating. It takes too much work and limits what you can make.

What ever floats your boat.

Just wait until I get involved in the whole sq/ft pricing discussion.:jester:


----------



## electrictim510

To me flat-rate and bid are almost the same thing. 

As far as limiting ourselves.. I don't know man. I made between $80-$120k ($250-$300k for the company)working for a contractor before the economy went sour and I spent a good amount of time with my family. You just have to know how to use it, and know your worth. You cannot make good money doing flat-rate if you're worried about being judged by your peers.


----------



## oldman

Flat rate and bid are the same. A flat rate manual is simply a more formal way to bid small work utilizing techs, without wild price fluctuations within a company. 

Simple concept, right?


----------



## robnj772

electrictim510 said:


> To me flat-rate and bid are almost the same thing.
> 
> As far as limiting ourselves.. I don't know man. I made between $80-$120k ($250-$300k for the company)working for a contractor before the economy went sour and I spent a good amount of time with my family. You just have to know how to use it, and know your worth. You cannot make good money doing flat-rate if you're worried about being judged by your peers.


They are no where near the same thing. This is what confuses so many people. To you,you think they are because you do service work. Flat rate will only work with service work. Change a GFI-that is a flat rate. Wire an entire basement that would be a bid.

My flat rate hourly charge is a bit higher then what I would charge for a new construction or renovation/additon job because of several factors.

For example

Your overhead is different. Your not driving all over,your camped out at one location for numerous days vrs your running an hour one way to do 45 mins of work. 

The average one man shop wears many different hats and has to adapt to many different things. Just going flat rate for everything would never work for a one man shop


----------



## electrictim510

robnj772 said:


> They are no where near the same thing. This is what confuses so many people. To you,you think they are because you do service work. Flat rate will only work with service work. Change a GFI-that is a flat rate. Wire an entire basement that would be a bid.
> 
> My flat rate hourly charge is a bit higher then what I would charge for a new construction or renovation/additon job because of several factors.
> 
> For example
> 
> Your overhead is different. Your not driving all over,your camped out at one location for numerous days vrs your running an hour one way to do 45 mins of work.
> 
> The average one man shop wears many different hats and has to adapt to many different things. Just going flat rate for everything would never work for a one man shop


I follow you. I work a little different because when you're on commission basis the line between flat-rate and bid gets a little fuzzy, especially when it comes to multiple jobs or larger jobs. I tend to bid most jobs but I have an average flat-rate for small jobs I guess.

I think the only big difference is is that flat-rates have been bid beforehand.


----------



## 10492

electrictim510 said:


> I think the only big difference is is that flat-rates have been bid beforehand.


That's actually a very good way of simplifying it. Bid beforehand.:thumbsup:

I like it.


----------



## Tiger

nitro71 said:


> Here's why I don't like flat rate.
> 
> You go do a small job for a customer. They almost always have other electrical issues they want looked at. At this point you're already there, on the clock, you're making money. *If you are T&M they know exactly what it is costing them.* If you're flat rate you have to go look at your book and tell the customer, that will be an additional X amount of dollars. Seems to me there is more chance that a customer will not want to spend the additional money if you discuss the price vs them just knowing you are on the clock.
> 
> *How to you flat rate going to the supply house for material?* What if traffic is bad or there is construction or the supply house doesn't have the material and you have to go elsewhere. Flat rate, you just ate that cost.
> 
> With flat rate you have to have list for everything. Last thing I want is another list to maintain. Now you have to update your list when material prices change. Take #4 copper for example. If you had flat rate for a service upgrade that price needs to increase with the recent copper price increases.
> 
> Everyone can run their business like they want but to me flat rate doesn't make sense. I have to wonder if those that push it on this site are affiliated with some of the big chains.


With T&M the client knows the hourly rate, but they don't know the final cost. With flat rate the client knows the final cost, but not the hourly rate. Stated another way...with T&M the final cost is variable and with flat rate the hourly rate is variable. Clients prefer knowing the final cost. 

With T&M the client pays more for trips to the supplier. With flat rate they don't pay more for trips to the supplier. Clients prefer not paying extra for trips to suppliers.


----------



## nitro71

Tiger said:


> With T&M the client knows the hourly rate, but they don't know the final cost. With flat rate the client knows the final cost, but not the hourly rate. Stated another way...with T&M the final cost is variable and with flat rate the hourly rate is variable. Clients prefer knowing the final cost.
> 
> With T&M the client pays more for trips to the supplier. With flat rate they don't pay more for trips to the supplier. Clients prefer not paying extra for trips to suppliers.


I agree that clients don't want to pay for trips to the supply house but I don't want to pay for it either!


----------



## Mr Rewire

nitro71 said:


> I agree that clients don't want to pay for trips to the supply house but I don't want to pay for it either!


 For flat rate to work well you also need a well stocked service van so you don't need trips to the supply house. Plus you will be profitable enough on all your calls to afford to make a trip when you have no choice.


----------



## gold

I wonder if its coincidence that small business advisors never recommend T&M.


----------



## Tiger

nitro71 said:


> I agree that clients don't want to pay for trips to the supply house but I don't want to pay for it either!


Flat rate should include everything needed to complete a job (even trips to a supplier).

Another generality...flat rate and contracting in general rewards productivity. T&M punishes productivity. In any contract you make more money if you have time-saving tools, full inventory on the van and experience. With T&M you'll make more money if you show up with hand tools and no supplies.


----------



## electrictim510

I don't get why people who do t&m think flat-raters are stupid. Why would we recommend it and say there is more money to made by using the system but also not price well enough to make money?


----------



## dronai

electrictim510 said:


> I don't get why people who do t&m think flat-raters are stupid. Why would we recommend it and say there is more money to made by using the system but also not price well enough to make money?


Another sale today !!! 

Service change- Tim- The power of SALES technique- Flat fee includes stucco patch/permits utility planner/city inspector coordinate


----------



## electrictim510

Congratz! I'm glad to hear you're getting your service perfected. :thumbsup:


----------



## electrictim510

I may just make a thread on the topic of how a typical call is approached when flat-rating. I'll check to see if anyone has done it already and if not I'll take some time to lay one out here within the next few days. There is a little too much confusion on this subject.

...on second thought, that might be a bad idea. This forum is too public for this kind of post. :whistling2:


----------



## electrictim510

Tiger said:


> Flat rate should include everything needed to complete a job (even trips to a supplier).
> 
> Another generality...flat rate and contracting in general rewards productivity. T&M punishes productivity. In any contract you make more money if you have time-saving tools, full inventory on the van and experience. With T&M you'll make more money if you show up with hand tools and no supplies.


I don't think I could of said it better, good post. :thumbsup:


----------



## nitro71

You're making me look at things different. That's for sure.


----------



## doubleoh7

The Lightman said:


> One of the biggest advocates/success stories of flat rate here is totally independent and is geographically close to me. IF I chose to market to the residential market, I would not hesitate to utilize his method of pricing which takes all of the concerns that you mentioned and many more business matters into account. I believe that the electronic version is periodically updated when you subscribe.


 

With flat rate can you add a percentage if the homeowner is a hoarder? What if it takes an hour to empty a closet full of crap so you can get into the attic? That is why I will never do flat rate., too many variables.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

doubleoh7 said:


> With flat rate can you add a percentage if the homeowner is a hoarder? What if it takes an hour to empty a closet full of crap so you can get into the attic? That is why I will never do flat rate., too many variables.


As others have said on here, Flat rate does not have to be concrete. If you have a good set up you can charge accordingly.

Most every system out there has a something available to be able to charge customers for unseen circumstances, such as emptying a closet.

When you are on an estimate, you can look at what's in front of you and make a determination on how long it will take you to move the hoarders stuff and give them a price. Or you can have them move it.

Personally I do not like to move other people's stuff. If something happens, there is a liability.
Maybe there is a scratch on the floor already, but they blame you and etc etc.
If there is a lot of stuff that needs to be moved, it's customers responsibility, then we will drop, drop cloths to protect their personal items.
If there is to much stuff, I will refuse and collect my $75.00


----------



## electrictim510

doubleoh7 said:


> With flat rate can you add a percentage if the homeowner is a hoarder? What if it takes an hour to empty a closet full of crap so you can get into the attic? That is why I will never do flat rate., too many variables.


This is why I don't give phone quotes for jobs. Noone is stupid enough to not include time to do stuff like this, come on guys be realistic. If you don't like the system for whatever reason, you don't like it, but don't come up with crazy off the wall excuses why you don't want to try it... just don't try it.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Electrim, when you get a chance check your email.


----------



## 220/221

Chris1971 said:


> I know this subject has been posted numerous times on this and other forums but, I'll ask it again. I'm looking at charging my customers a minimum fee to diagnose an electrical problem. Let's say: $60.00 Once I diagnose the electrical issue then, I would write up a work order stating cost to fix the problem. Any suggestions? Or would a person be better off charging an hourly rate? I'm leaning more towards the flat rate pricing. I feel I could make more doing it that way.


 
You should go flat rate.

On T&M troubleshooting and repair, the more experienced you are, the less money you make.:jester:


----------



## electrictim510

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Electrim, when you get a chance check your email.


Replied. :thumbsup: Thanks for the info. We will most likely be making a purchase once it is available.


----------



## 10492

220/221 said:


> On T&M troubleshooting and repair, the more experienced you are, the less money you make.:jester:


Kinda depends.

If I charge a 4 hr minumum, and fix it in 1/2 hr, I can make serious money being good at trouble shooting.

Those that say it can't be done, just don't know how to do it right.

Flat rate is a predetermined price, sight unseen, based upon work history.

Otherwise your bidding the work using T&M to determine your final price.


----------



## dronai

Dnkldorf said:


> Kinda depends.
> 
> If I charge a 4 hr minumum, and fix it in 1/2 hr, I can make serious money being good at trouble shooting.
> 
> Those that say it can't be done, just don't know how to do it right.
> 
> Flat rate is a predetermined price, sight unseen, based upon work history.
> 
> Otherwise your bidding the work using T&M to determine your final price.


 
Yeah, but doesn't your 4 hr minimum, open the door, to them walking you around their place, to fix as much as you can, until they eat up the 4 hrs ?


----------



## 10492

dronai said:


> Yeah, but doesn't your 4 hr minimum, open the door, to them walking you around there place, to fix as much as you can, until they eat up the 4 hrs ?


 
No, I am there to fix x problem you called about. I have other scheduled work after this call.

I'll look at the rest, give you a price, and schedule it in.


----------



## dronai

Dnkldorf said:


> No, I am there to fix x problem you called about. I have other scheduled work after this call.
> 
> I'll look at the rest, give you a price, and schedule it in.


 
That would cut off that avenue. Well done. 

OK second scenario, This is real, when I was T&M. I installed a fixture, or what ever. When finished, customer needed a new outlet. The location was a piece of cake, right below a switch, open drywall, no block, insulation. It took me about fifteen minutes. Customer wins, If I was inexperienced the customer losses, to the guy learning on their nickel. Flat price, I win for my skill.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Dnkldorf said:


> Kinda depends.
> 
> If I charge a 4 hr minumum, and fix it in 1/2 hr, I can make serious money being good at trouble shooting.
> 
> Those that say it can't be done, just don't know how to do it right.
> 
> Flat rate is a predetermined price, sight unseen, based upon work history.
> 
> Otherwise your bidding the work using T&M to determine your final price.


I would seriously like for you to explain too me how your residential customers react to you when tell them, there will be a 4 hour minimum to troubleshoot a light or receptacle not working.
What is the first thing the customer will ask? " How much do you charge an hour? Your T&M. 
If you are selling your service based off true numbers that it takes to run a service department, then your rate will not be small and IMO you will not be able to pull this off very often.
If you sell your service at the going rate, then yes it might be possible.


----------



## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> I would seriously like for you to explain too me how your residential customers react to you when tell them, there will be a 4 hour minimum to troubleshoot a light or receptacle not working.
> What is the first thing the customer will ask? " How much do you charge an hour? Your T&M.
> If you are selling your service based off true numbers that it takes to run a service department, then your rate will not be small and IMO you will not be able to pull this off very often.
> If you sell your service at the going rate, then yes it might be possible.


 
Maybe, he's $25/hr, so his 4 hr minimum is $100.00 :thumbup:


----------



## 10492

TheBrushMan007 said:


> I would seriously like for you to explain too me how your residential customers react to you when tell them, there will be a 4 hour minimum to troubleshoot a light or receptacle not working.


The same way you explain how you charge over $1000 to change out 10 GFI's, when your guy was there for less than 3 hrs and GFI's online are $20.


----------



## nitro71

dronai said:


> That would cut off that avenue. Well done.
> 
> OK second scenario, This is real, when I was T&M. I installed a fixture, or what ever. When finished, customer needed a new outlet. The location was a piece of cake, right below a switch, open drywall, no block, insulation. It took me about fifteen minutes. Customer wins, If I was inexperienced the customer losses, to the guy learning on their nickel. Flat price, I win for my skill.


What would you quote the customer for installing a receptacle like that?


----------



## dronai

nitro71 said:


> What would you quote the customer for installing a receptacle like that?


Nitro, I would use my labor rate ( L+ O/H + P ) Plus materials, mark-up for stocking that on my van. I have a CPA, so I know what my OH is. If times are fat, my P is high, nowadays, just keep the work coming in.


You need to adjust your own rate, according to your demographics, and the current market. 

So what I charge, would be different to what you are able to charge. My area Rates vary - but at $100/ hr in fifteen minutes is $25.00 (too cheap)

I think a customer wouldn't balk at $45.00 (example)

Add your first hour charge to that addition.

I'm learning this method, there's some big fish on this forum, that can help.


----------



## nitro71

dronai said:


> Nitro, I would use my labor rate ( L+ O/H + P ) Plus materials, mark-up for stocking that on my van. I have a CPA, so I know what my OH is. If times are fat, my P is high, nowadays, just keep the work coming in.
> 
> 
> You need to adjust your own rate, according to your demographics, and the current market.
> 
> So what I charge, would be different to what you are able to charge. My area Rates vary - but at $100/ hr in fifteen minutes is $25.00 (too cheap)
> 
> I think a customer wouldn't balk at $45.00 (example)
> 
> Add your first hour charge to that addition.
> 
> I'm learning this method, there's some big fish on this forum, that can help.


I was just curious, 45-50 is about what I would want to charge for that.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Dnkldorf said:


> The same way you explain how you charge over $1000 to change out 10 GFI's, when your guy was there for less than 3 hrs and GFI's online are $20.


Eric has been trying to explain this to you since 2006, so I know this will be a mute point.

Once EC's figure their true cost of doing business and adding a profit, they find that they will need to charge more than the going rate.

It's a very hard pill for a customer to swallow if you tell them your price is $200.00 an hour. I know EC's that flat rate close to $400.00

The pill is much easier to swallow if it is presented to them as a unit price.
Since you brought the GFCI's in thread, lets use that for an example.

The labor unit that I use for replacing GFCI's is .33
$200.00 x .33 = $66.00
GFCI $17.50 + mark up $4.50 = $22.00

Total Unit Price $88.00
We have and many successful companies have an easier time selling GFCI's at a unit cost of $88.00, rather than telling the customer we charge $200.00 an hour. By doing this, I can be completly secure in my prices, I don't have to say there is a 4 hour minimum, which IMO will not work well.
Now as far as the customer knowing the price of a GFCI for $20.00, who cares!
My company is not making its living on the material profit. We get paid, for our knowledge, licensing... and a fully stocked truck with a drug free, licensed technician, that can pass a criminal background check.
You can get a handyman to change out a GFCI for $32.00, you get what you pay for.
Our customer's not only get a GFCI, they get an experience on what true customer service is.
Some people wear Timex some where Rolex.


----------



## user4818

TheBrushMan007 said:


> licensed technicians


Uh oh! :laughing:


...wait for it!


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Peter D said:


> Uh oh! :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...wait for it!


Peter lol, I was wondering if I should have said that, lol :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Peter lol, I was wondering if I should have said that, lol :thumbsup:


Great post otherwise! :laughing:


----------



## dronai

Peter D said:


> Great post otherwise! :laughing:


 
.......................


----------



## 10492

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Eric has been trying to explain this to you since 2006, so I know this will be a mute point.


And I'll explain this to both of you again, and it Will be a mute point.

Just because you can't make money at something, doesn't mean someone else can't, and it doesn't mean no-one else can either.




TheBrushMan007 said:


> Once EC's figure their true cost of doing business and adding a profit, they find that they will need to charge more than the going rate.


Resorting to the mysterious/invisible going rate argument?

You can't price your product or service on market conditions, but you can use someone else's labor units for a job you've never done? Aren't these labor units, going rates for labor to do a certain task?

If not, there is no way in hell a contractor can use a flat rate book unless he/she has been in business for at least 5 yrs, and kept meticulous notes on labor since day one.






TheBrushMan007 said:


> It's a very hard pill for a customer to swallow if you tell them your price is $200.00 an hour.


Sure is, so who does this anyway? 

Do you tell your customers that you secretly price your work at $400/hr because you have massive overhead, salary and advertising unlike the smaller shops?

Hell no, you'd keep your mouth shut, do the work, and move on.




TheBrushMan007 said:


> The pill is much easier to swallow if it is presented to them as a unit price.


Yup, sure is. 



TheBrushMan007 said:


> Some people wear Timex some where Rolex.


So you can see that two totally different watches, can tell time exactly the same way, yet cost thousands less than each other, but you can't fathom how to make money on a T&M job?


----------



## dronai

Hey, your happy with your methods, they must work for you. 

By the way, my gardener never gives a by the hour price. He always quotes a price for a sprinkler repair, or removing shrubs. Otherwise he would say more than $15/hr for an illegal, and I'd tell him to take a hike !

Auto mechanics are also by the job. 

You guys have been at it since 2006 ?


----------



## 10492

Lawyers charge by the Hour, accountants, by the hour, mechanics, by the hour. They also give flat rates for certain jobs.

They all make money some how, 


who'd a thunk that *all ways* work and make money and no-ones single way is the end all to run an EC business.


----------



## 10492

dronai said:


> You guys have been at it since 2006 ?


I've been debunking their BS for longer than that.


----------



## electrictim510

*raises hand* I charge between $200-$400 average. Can't make it long term unless you do. Also take in consideration that we do almost exclusively service work, nearly no ground up work whatsoever.

I find it so funny how you guys are arguing in parallel though.


----------



## macmikeman

I pretty much stay out of these arguments now. I have come to the conclusion there are wise people and there are not very wise people. Sometimes I will just try to enlighten new guys to a wise way to proceed, but if they are stubborn, screw em, walk away. Waste of time. :whistling2:


----------



## macmikeman

Did somebody say technician?..........................:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Dnkldorf said:


> And I'll explain this to both of you again, and it Will be a mute point.
> 
> Just because you can't make money at something, doesn't mean someone else can't, and it doesn't mean no-one else can either.
> I'm not saying you can't make money at T&M, T&M has its place in certain situations.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Resorting to the mysterious/invisible going rate argument?
> I'm not resorting, there is nothing mysterious about it. I can call any EC's in my state, or any state for that matter, and the going rate is going to be very similar.
> 
> You can't price your product or service on market conditions, but you can use someone else's labor units for a job you've never done? Aren't these labor units, going rates for labor to do a certain task?
> EC's depend on estimating software all the time. I depend on Accubid when we bid new commercial. I used to depend on turbo bid when bidding new residential._ Standard Labor units are completely different than the going rate that EC's charge per hour._
> 
> If not, there is no way in hell a contractor can use a flat rate book unless he/she has been in business for at least 5 yrs, and kept meticulous notes on labor since day one.
> That is ridiculous, being 3rd generation, we have very accurate records of how long it takes to install jobs. EC's count on me to give them accurate pricing, just like some that rely on Aptora or NSPG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure is, so who does this anyway?
> 
> Do you tell your customers that you secretly price your work at $400/hr because you have massive overhead, salary and advertising unlike the smaller shops?
> We don't have to explain any of that, we give an upfront price at the beginning, they can make a informed decision weather they want to use us or not. They don't get a surprised bill at the end. There is never a price dispute.
> One benefit of flat rate, you don't have to discuss hourly rates, material markups, employee pay, benefits and etc, etc.
> 
> Hell no, you'd keep your mouth shut, do the work, and move on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, sure is.
> 
> 
> 
> So you can see that two totally different watches, can tell time exactly the same way, yet cost thousands less than each other, but you can't fathom how to make money on a T&M job?


Point missed,

I can fathom it just fine, I do feel like T&M has its use, just not in residential service.


----------



## electrictim510

I may of, I use it pretty commonly. I'm use to working with companies that have electricians, plumbers, hvacs so I am use to calling service guys techs/technicians.


----------



## macmikeman

electrictim510 said:


> I may of, I use it pretty commonly. I'm use to working with companies that have electricians, plumbers, hvacs so I am use to calling service guys techs/technicians.


Not you, and of course my response was only a joke anyway.... No offense taken...


----------



## user4818

electrictim510 said:


> I may of, I use it pretty commonly. I'm use to working with companies that have electricians, plumbers, hvacs so I am use to calling service guys techs/technicians.


Some members here objected to "electricians" being called "technicians" the other day and a debate ensued. They said that being a technician somehow debased the position of electrician. It was a silly argument. :yes:


----------



## electrictim510

I agree with Brush. I think T&M guys rip themselves off personally. There is money to be made with T&M but just not as much, and I don't think anyone can make a justifiable argument to that. I think if everyone would do flat-rate then we would all be much happier. (Bold statement I know, I might even make some enemies behind that statement but it's the truth in my eyes)

I can't stand to hear about a guy that goes to a customers house and charges $150 for something I would of made $400+ on and probably would of done a much better job at.


----------



## oldman

macmikeman said:


> I pretty much stay out of these arguments now. I have come to the conclusion there are wise people and there are not very wise people. Sometimes I will just try to enlighten new guys to a wise way to proceed, but if they are stubborn, screw em, walk away. Waste of time. :whistling2:


And then there are those who can't even be fixed with duct tape...

The best is when guys (dnk) are 100% dead wrong in what they think a system is (flat-rate), actually does a non-formal version of said system (quoting by the job from experience, instead of a price book), then argues that the system is bad...

But Mac, you are correct....


----------



## TheBrushMan007

macmikeman said:


> I pretty much stay out of these arguments now. I have come to the conclusion there are wise people and there are not very wise people. Sometimes I will just try to enlighten new guys to a wise way to proceed, but if they are stubborn, screw em, walk away. Waste of time. :whistling2:


I totally agree Mac, I only say about 20% whats on my mind.
My hope is, is that the new guys can have an open mind, going against the grain and become successful. Not to do what the some of the guys preach on here or have the notion in there head, that just because the EC down the street has 5 trucks and has been in business for 5 years is doing right and he only charges $75.00 an hour.
My competitor that's been in business for 25 years, went under last year.
Why? Money.
Even in good times, only 1 out of 5 make it. At the end, it's because not enough money came in.
Ellen, said it best, there are a lot of things worse, that can happen to you than just going out of business. Loosing your house because you have business loans on it, friendships ending, divorce, bankruptcy and the list goes on and on.


----------



## oldman

peter d said:


> some members here objected to "electricians" being called "technicians" the other day and a debate ensued. They said that being a technician somehow debased the position of electrician. It was a silly argument. :yes:


petey!


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> petey!


Yeah. I'm back.


----------



## electrictim510

Even though I do disagree with dnk I so see why he is so against it, I come across this from time to time and it's always a matter of either misunderstanding or stubbornness, not sure which this is her though.. a mixture of both maybe.


----------



## oldman

electrictim510 said:


> Even though I do disagree with dnk I so see why he is so against it, I come across this from time to time and it's always a matter of either misunderstanding or stubbornness, not sure which this is her though.. a mixture of both maybe.


OK..you have to explain this to me.

He uses an informal flat rate system....he says a formal flat rate system is bad....only because he mistakenly believes that a formal flat rate system a)has no flexibility, and b)is meant to be used for phone quotes.

For 5+ yrs he has consistently, and possibly purposefully, frustrated many people in this industry will his perverse inability to comprehend what a flat rate system is and/or isn't.

So please, explain your posted thought to me, because I can't see it.


----------



## 220/221

Dnkldorf said:


> Kinda depends.
> 
> If I charge a 4 hr minumum, and fix it in 1/2 hr, I can make serious money being good at trouble shooting.


 
I'm going to agree with those who advise against this verbage. It seems like it would open you up to all kinds of issues. $XXX minimum may be better. $XXX total would be ideal.

I usually only do T&M for friends, family and really good clients.


----------



## macmikeman

Dinkldorf made my day. Every now and then he gets oldfart, er, um, I mean oldman to land the G250 and come visit us....... :laughing:


----------



## oldman

macmikeman said:


> Dinkldorf made my day. Every now and then he gets oldfart, er, um, I mean oldman to land the G250 and come visit us....... :laughing:


:laughing:

I'm still waiting on the job offer to be your intern


----------



## macmikeman

You damn near came close last week, I hurt my back a good one........


----------



## oldman

Waves were that big?


----------



## macmikeman

oldman said:


> Waves were that big?


Ser cable.. Big roll. Amost all better now.


----------



## electrictim510

oldman said:


> OK..you have to explain this to me.
> 
> He uses an informal flat rate system....he says a formal flat rate system is bad....only because he mistakenly believes that a formal flat rate system a)has no flexibility, and b)is meant to be used for phone quotes.
> 
> For 5+ yrs he has consistently, and possibly purposefully, frustrated many people in this industry will his perverse inability to comprehend what a flat rate system is and/or isn't.
> 
> So please, explain your posted thought to me, because I can't see it.


Well as I posted, I see WHY, never said I agree. I understand why he is feeling the way he is. I think dnk is too unfamiliar (5 years of explaining is not going to be nothing compared to seeing a service electrician that does flat-rate in action), seeing is believing and since he does not see it he can't imagine how it is. If you're brought up a certain way you almost get the 'old dog' mentality where if you are not proven without a doubt (even then it's not guaranteed depending on stubbornness) then you will not even try to 'learn new tricks'. It's also part of human nature to pick the safest route first. 

So let me emphasize that I don't agree (obviously) but I do understand. There is also a certain amount of pride that has to be set aside when someone introduces a new way of doing things, maybe dnk is not ready for that.


----------



## brian john

Peter D said:


> Yeah. I'm back.


AND STILL CAN'T SPELL

Your post should say

Yeah. I'm a hack


----------



## brian john

T&M VS Flat Rate.

Once again this is a personal choice and may be dependent on the area you work in. Such as no one is familiar with flat rate. Obviously T&M works when properly implemented as EC's have made a living off this for years. Flat rate may be better for many EC's but some EC's may be happy with their present T&M billing.

NO matter how you lay it out few atheist will become Christians, and few Christians will quit their religion to become nonbelievers. 

Why waste the energy trying.


----------



## 10492

220/221 said:


> I'm going to agree with those who advise against this verbage. It seems like it would open you up to all kinds of issues. $XXX minimum may be better. $XXX total would be ideal.
> 
> I usually only do T&M for friends, family and really good clients.


Yes sir, it is not something that works for every customer. Some freak out, some see it as a value for your service.


2 hr wil be probably be ideal for Resi stuff if you were charging T&M rates.


----------



## 10492

TheBrushMan007 said:


> The labor unit that I use for replacing GFCI's is .33
> $200.00 x .33 = $66.00
> GFCI $17.50 + mark up $4.50 = $22.00
> 
> Total Unit Price $88.00


Can I ask you something?

Could a T&M business advertize a set hourly rate, and increase the margins on materials, and achieve the same total unit price?

If he marketed his business to the right people, could he make money and be succesful?

Not possible, can't happen......


.


----------



## 10492

oldman said:


> OK..you have to explain this to me.
> 
> He uses an informal flat rate system....


After all these yrs, and you still don't know me well.

For the record, I use a hybrid pricing structure. I use T&M, I use bid pricing, and I "flat rate" some things.


On commercial service, I use a 2hr min, and T&M after that to fix problems. Anything new gets sheduled, and people usually want to know an approx number of what a new copier circuit clear across the room is going to be, before they have you do it.



oldman said:


> he says a formal flat rate system is bad


Just in case you missed my post on that.




Dnkldorf said:


> Lawyers charge by the Hour, accountants, by the hour, mechanics, by the hour. They also give flat rates for certain jobs.
> 
> They all make money some how,
> 
> 
> who'd a thunk that *all ways* work and make money and no-ones single way is the end all to run an EC business.


 


oldman said:


> For 5+ yrs he has consistently, and possibly purposefully, frustrated many people in this industry will his perverse inability to comprehend what a flat rate system is and/or isn't.


Not so much many people in the industry. 

Let's leave it at just you and your posse, who think your way is the only way.

Hope all is well.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Dnkldorf said:


> Can I ask you something?
> 
> Could a T&M business advertise a set hourly rate, and increase the margins on materials, and achieve the same total unit price?
> 
> If he marketed his business to the right people, could he make money and be successful?
> 
> Not possible, can't happen......
> 
> 
> .


A business owner can do what they want, does it mean it will have the same result? No!
With flat rate, the tasks time is set, the material is set. That is how you come up with the unit price.
You can only ask that question because you have already seen one of the units.
If you never saw the total unit, you would have not been able to ask "
_Could a T&M business advertise a set hourly rate, and increase the margins on materials, and achieve the same total unit price?"_

Either way, you would have to set up a sliding scale to mark up material to derive at what ever price you thought it should be.
It never would be consistent.
Not something that you can do with your employees that are running service calls either. They would have to call the shop after every service call, if you wanted to to get paid that day. If not, you would have a billing department sending out bills everyday and hope that they will pay you, no thank you. *Which goes hand in hand with price disputes. *
They can start showing their friends how expensive you are and come up with every reason why they should not pay you.
We will go back to a statement that you asked about in a previous post," the homeowner knows the GFCI cost $20.00"
Your T&M, You go to a house, it takes you .33 to change out the GFCI.
The going rate is $75.00, .33 X $75.00 = $24.75
To come up with my unit, you will have to charge $63.25 for the GFCI to equal the unit of $88.00
Best of luck.
With this example, we are only talking about one item. It gets more complicated when you add more and try to derive at a price doing T&M.
Here is an assembly from my new program coming out.
This is for a 30 amp dedicated emt circuit within 25ft. These are the items in the assembly.









When you are T&M, your electricians have to write down all these items when they are on every call and that can be a exhausting. Now what happens when you have 5 similar tasks? Plus they have to be accurate.
Then office personal has to figure out cost's. There will always be double entry, so that costs your business more money.
I prefer to have this done for me already, always consistent. That's me.


----------



## electrictim510

I am so confused now. Maybe I have been reading wrong, I thought that dnk didn't like flat rate at all. Now I have to go back and re-read the thread to find out what I read wrong. :wallbash:


----------



## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Here is an assembly from my new program coming out.
> This is for a 30 amp dedicated emt circuit within 25ft. These are the items in the assembly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you are T&M, your electricians have to write down all these items when they are on every call and that can be a exhausting. Now what happens when you have 5 similar tasks? Plus they have to be accurate.
> Then office personal has to figure out cost's. There will always be double entry, so that costs your business more money.
> I prefer to have this done for me already, always consistent. That's me.


 
Simple & fast !
This type of job requiring running conduit, with wire fills, does take too much time to have to calculate fast. Do you provide updates on material pricing changes, or do have to manually go through all the assemblies to update ?


----------



## TheBrushMan007

The new program coming out on the I-pad will have weekly price updates.

The old program on excel is going bye bye.


----------



## oldman

electrictim510 said:


> I am so confused now. Maybe I have been reading wrong, I thought that dnk didn't like flat rate at all. Now I have to go back and re-read the thread to find out what I read wrong. :wallbash:


Hence the true frustration. He's a misinformed and misguided contrarian who is arguing against something just because he doesn't understand it.


Shoot, I'm against his incorrect idea of flat rate too. I can agree with him there. I don't
Think anyone should quote a non-adjustable price over the phone, sight unseen, either.


----------



## electrictim510

I'm thinking of having a meeting with all the EC's in my area to make some kind of truce that we all should never give free estimates or quotes over the phone. Only problem is; there is not very many honorable people in the world so I doubt anyone will stick to it. Someone will see a chance to sneak in and do a free one just because they know noone else is doing it, to get the upper hand. 

Even if everyone charged a minimum of $20 to get estimates at least our gas is covered for the most part. Customers just have no respect for our time and gas, but then again neither do a lot of other EC's with their own time and gas so why should HO's?..


----------



## ACNJ

TheBrushMan007 said:


> The new program coming out on the I-pad will have weekly price updates.
> 
> The old program on excel is going bye bye.


Looking forward to checking it out


----------



## Mr Rewire

electrictim510 said:


> I'm thinking of having a meeting with all the EC's in my area to make some kind of truce that we all should never give free estimates or quotes over the phone. Only problem is; there is not very many honorable people in the world so I doubt anyone will stick to it. Someone will see a chance to sneak in and do a free one just because they know noone else is doing it, to get the upper hand.
> 
> Even if everyone charged a minimum of $20 to get estimates at least our gas is covered for the most part. Customers just have no respect for our time and gas, but then again neither do a lot of other EC's with their own time and gas so why should HO's?..


 Why would they want to make such a stupid bargan when they know it wouldn't last? Your time spent on estimates should be factored into your overhead and be included in your estimate.Even as a one man shop you should be paying yourself a minimum of 40 hours. Estimates should be considered a cost of doing business and treated as such just like having a phone.


----------



## electrictim510

Mr Rewire said:


> Why would they want to make such a stupid bargan when they know it wouldn't last? Your time spent on estimates should be factored into your overhead and be included in your estimate.Even as a one man shop you should be paying yourself a minimum of 40 hours. Estimates should be considered a cost of doing business and treated as such just like having a phone.


I respectfully disagree. We are just use to this thinking and I don't like it. I think estimates are something that customers should pay for. Do you get estimates for medical work? No, because people respect doctors time so it is an accepted thing that you just go with what the doctor says or pay diagnostic or consultant fee to 'get an estimate/opinion. I think we deserve the same respect.

And if we shouldn't charge for estimates then rates should double.


----------



## macmikeman

ACNJ said:


> Looking forward to checking it out


Ya, me too..... wink wink


----------



## B W E

macmikeman said:


> BAM, There you go. See? Now some bonehead (I mean a real one..) will jump in and tell you that it wasn't "fair" to your customer and you are now a rip off. Screw them. You did it right. Welcome to electricians success.


Mac, you were right. I think the hang up that I have is that for the last 13 years, I topped out at about $250 a day. What it boils down to is that, while the going rate (read "fair price") seems like a lot of money to me, it is the going rate. spoke to a good friend who is an HVAC contractor and asked him what his service call fee was. He said $125 to show up, and includes one hour. This would end at a diagnosis and a recommended repair, noting more. The repair was an additional cost, + materials, etc. Comparing that to they way I did it, charging $65 for a service call, which included 1 hour, and the repair, if i could do it in that hour, +materials. I think this is where I got my $70 for that A/C disconnect charge. 

With all new projects, I will be incorporating a more reasonable rate (for me) and they can take it or leave it. In hindsight, I do appreciate the help and apologize for getting my panties wadded up.

I like the idea of the diagnosis fee. If i take my van to a mechanic to find out whats wrong with it, he comes back to me with a diagnosis, an invoice for the diagnosis, and recommended repairs and their costs. I do like the sound of that much better. 

It's really bugging me that the lady was quoted $195 and she accepted it, and here I come and only charge her $70.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

BWE, I'm glad to see you opening up to new ideas that might be foreign to you.
This is a great place to learn. This does not mean you have to agree with everything that everybody says, just have an open mind to it.
Many here have been in business for a long time & most here want to help others the best they know how.


----------



## Mike_586

brian john said:


> NO matter how you lay it out few atheist will become Christians, and few Christians will quit their religion to become nonbelievers.
> 
> Why waste the energy trying.


One reason I often find myself starting to write something and then realizing I'm just wasting my time and cancelling it.

The only time I can think of where we've done flat rate pricing was when it was imposed on us by our largest customer. 

We had a job coming up doing around 70 office furniture feeds, mostly ceiling feeds and some base feeds, just disconnect the stuff, then come back and reconnect it. They loved rearranging the stuff their, anything 3 months in the same place was a legacy. 

The new head of facilities was a total ass that came over from Nortel, and he had the bean counters go through our invoices, and he came up with a price. Then he called up the boss and asked for a meeting about the job, since I would be running it I would be there too.

We went to the meeting, there were a bunch of suits there, and the guy pretty much 'laid down the law' saying "This is the contract for the job." The boss took a look and kinda made a weird little noise and started laughing a little, the new facilities guy took it the wrong way and said "That's the job. You can take it, or you're done doing any work here. Now GTF out of my office." 

The boss got all stone faced, looked around at all the other suits, got up and walked out, we headed down to our 'office' that he had in the building. Once we were behind the closed doors and out of earshot he got a sh1t eating grin on his face and said "I hope you guys can do over 400 furniture feeds by Monday" :blink: Huh?

When he showed me the contract and the drawings and I realized what the guy did. We just started laughing our asses off. Each furniture feed could handle 6 workstations and the price they gave him was per work station, not per feed. 

We did talk to the guy's boss who was one of the suits in the room and someone we had a good working relationship with. He told us to keep our damned mouths shut.

....sometimes you'd have to be a fool to turn down a flat rate job :lol:


----------



## electrictim510

I'm kind of confused :blink:


----------



## Tiger

Dnkldorf said:


> Could a T&M business advertize a set hourly rate, and increase the margins on materials, and achieve the same total unit price?


I didn't look up a previous quote about hourly charges of lawyers, mechanics, etc. but lawyers are one of the few professionals who charge $250/hour, get work and don't have undercutting competition charging much less. Mechanics advertise an hourly rate but often work from a flat rate book. If they can do a job in a half hour that's rated at one hour, the actual hourly rate is much higher. They get away with that because you drop your car off. A good mechanic bills more than 8 hours for their 8 hour shift.

To the question of increasing material markup to cover a lower hourly rate, it's possible but you won't achieve your profit goal with jobs that have few or no materials.


----------



## Tiger

electrictim510 said:


> I'm kind of confused :blink:


If your confused about Mike's post, most of us are talking about residential service. He's not.


----------



## Greg Sparkovich

I do primarily residential and light commercial. I sort of do "flat rate", but not from a book. I think this is easier since i work alone, but when I've had helpers, I bid the same way anyway.

I agree that regardless of how you bid, it's how you sell your bid that counts.

I do free estimates by phone or $50 in person. The next words out of my mouth are "All my work is guaranteed forever either way." -----> This sets boundaries and lets my customer know I'm serious, and that I have enough experience that I know what I'm doing and I have a "system" of how I work. I generally find that it is a relief to my customers to know this. Other than AFCIs(Grrrrr!!!), I've had about 5 call backs my entire life; so my "guarantee" doesn't mean much to me ...and it means everything to my customers.

I generally bid "by location" -a 'location' being a light, switch, receptacle, smoke detector, etc. That includes all materials except for GFCIs, a light fixture/fan or smoke detector itself. This eliminates the labor/mats thing.

The price of the location is based on the condition of the home -or how many holes I can make. I explain that I'm a 'gadget nut' and have various extension bits and magnetic fishing tools so my holes will be small ----> "I'll never use a hammer to smash a hole in your wall (laughter)". Again: I'm experienced, I know what a crappy contractor can do to your home, and that is NOT me.
Whatever the 'per location' price is, I explain that some locations will cost more than others to do, but the *price* is the same. "This gives YOU the power of understanding my bid and you will know -without even asking me- how much more or less you will spend by adding or subtracting locations." ---> "Whoa ...that guy is so honest and up front!" I can't tell you how many customers tell me I'm the first honest contractor they've met (I'm sure that's not really true).
Finally, I explain that if there is any reason that the price should be more, it will be because of something that neither of us could see and it will be obvious to both of us -like extra wood in a wall (like fire-blocking or something). -----> I will eat a small loss and I will discount a stupid easy job; both of these get me customer love (no sex yet, but lots of love).

Residential is easy to price, so I generally don't have any problems. I track my hours loosely just to give myself feedback on my bid, but I rarely worry about this.

I have used "Ass Hole pricing" to rid myself of unwanted customers -or to make enough $ that their questions and complaints are worth the effort. Either is fine with me.  

When I get turned down, I always say "Well, I try to be a good neighbor, so if you have any problems, feel free to call me and ask. It always helps to get a second opinion or just know that you feel comfortable with what's happening in your house. OK? No hard feelings at all. Call me anytime."

I suppose some people are too embarrassed to call, but when they do call to finish the work the other cheapo guy didn't do or trouble shoot or whatever, I don't rub it in.

Most of my work is within a few miles of my house because people like me (word of mouth + neighborhood of old houses), not because of my "brilliant" work or anything (well, those small holes help).


----------



## doubleoh7

Dnkldorf said:


> Kinda depends.
> 
> If I charge a 4 hr minumum, and fix it in 1/2 hr, I can make serious money being good at trouble shooting.
> 
> Those that say it can't be done, just don't know how to do it right.
> 
> Flat rate is a predetermined price, sight unseen, based upon work history.
> 
> Otherwise your bidding the work using T&M to determine your final price.


 
If I was paying for four hours, I'd get four hours. I'd have you dusting ceiling fans or even mowing the lawn if need be, but I'd get four hours.:thumbsup::laughing:


----------



## Mr Rewire

doubleoh7 said:


> If I was paying for four hours, I'd get four hours. I'd have you dusting ceiling fans or even mowing the lawn if need be, but I'd get four hours.:thumbsup::laughing:


 Want to get a customer mad charge a 4 hour minimum and do the job in 1/2 hour.:no:


----------



## Island Electric

*


TheBrushMan007 said:



The new program coming out on the I-pad will have weekly price updates.

The old program on excel is going bye bye.

Click to expand...

*I have found this thread very informative. I have been in business for 1.5 years and have used all three methods mentioned here. I really want to get away from hourly rates. They do have their place but I use them for more of a safety net if anything.

I'm very interested in this new program coming out for the ipad. Do you have any other details on it like the name and when it will be available. Also do you know if the new program will work on a macbook?


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Island Electric said:


> I have found this thread very informative. I have been in business for 1.5 years and have used all three methods mentioned here. I really want to get away from hourly rates. They do have their place but I use them for more of a safety net if anything.
> 
> I'm very interested in this new program coming out for the ipad. Do you have any other details on it like the name and when it will be available. Also do you know if the new program will work on a macbook?


The program will work on Mac's, PC's and Ipads. Additional pads in the future.
It has scheduling, dispatching, customer management and will work with quick books.
Send me a PM and I will send you some information.


----------



## Rocky51

It takes an average of six years as an apprentice, Two more years as a Journeyman, Total of eight years before you can apply to take the masters exam. I could have been a Doctor or an Attorney in the same amount of time. Why can't we charge $ 300.00 dollars an hour ?  After all WE ARE PROFESSIONALS.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Rocky51 said:


> It takes an average of six years as an apprentice, Two more years as a Journeyman, Total of eight years before you can apply to take the masters exam. I could have been a Doctor or an Attorney in the same amount of time. dollars *Why can't we charge $ 300.00* *an hour* ?  After all WE ARE PROFESSIONALS.


 some of us do Rocky, some of us do.:thumbsup:


----------



## Chris1971

Mr Rewire said:


> some of us do Rocky, some of us do.:thumbsup:


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## LERelec

so heres an example of some flat rate vs hourly pricing
add paddle fan switch leg $300 none existing
add a 20A gfci in bath 10' from panel in pvc $300
drop 2 outlets down to 18" were at 48" idky 75 ea
total for job $750 - stock about 50-100 

now t&m ok what 85 /hr job takes 5 hrs on a long day = 425+100=525 == you lose 225 == i win btw job took me and my apprentice 3 1/2 hrs


----------



## robnj772

Mr Rewire said:


> some of us do Rocky, some of us do.:thumbsup:


:sleep1: :sleep1: :sleep1:


----------



## Mr Rewire

LERelec said:


> so heres an example of some flat rate vs hourly pricing
> add paddle fan switch leg $300 none existing
> add a 20A gfci in bath 10' from panel in pvc $300
> drop 2 outlets down to 18" were at 48" idky 75 ea
> total for job $750 - stock about 50-100
> 
> now t&m ok what 85 /hr job takes 5 hrs on a long day = 425+100=525 == you lose 225 == i win btw job took me and my apprentice 3 1/2 hrs


 Your math is wrong. T&M 7 hours @ 85.00 = 595.00 + 100 = 695.00 
difference of $55.00 

3.5 hr x 2 men =7 manhours.


----------



## LERelec

Mr Rewire said:


> Your math is wrong. T&M 7 hours @ 85.00 = 595.00 + 100 = 695.00
> difference of $55.00
> 
> 3.5 hr x 2 men =7 manhours.


85 includes me and my helper but hey maybe my math was wrong


----------



## robnj772

LERelec said:


> 85 includes me and my helper but hey maybe my math was wrong


 
Considering who pointed out your math error I woulnd't sweat it.

You math may have been wrong but he is crazyier then a moonbat


----------



## LERelec

robnj772 said:


> Considering who pointed out your math error I woulnd't sweat it.
> 
> You math may have been wrong but he is crazyier then a moonbat


lol well although im new ive been reading for a little while now so i've seen some of everyones reasoning and im sure i'll see some more.

thanks


----------



## Mr Rewire

LERelec said:


> 85 includes me and my helper but hey maybe my math was wrong


 It 's not your rate but your hours you said you and a helper took 3 1/2 hours that should be a total of 7 manhours you used 5 hours when comparing the T & M . 85.00/hr seemed low for two men.



be careful* robnj772* ius a bit of a stalker but otherwise harmless.:laughing:


----------



## B4T

I find this all very entertaining after a miserable hot day working.. :thumbsup:

Funny how some guys wind up in a hole and just keep digging away... :laughing:


----------



## Cletis

*Hospital*

I went in hospital other day and told them my brain was leaking and hurt real bad and I needed a *fixed price*. I told them their price was twice that of the other hospital to stop the leaking and headache so I left to the other.


----------



## dronai

Rewire
You shouldn't have called Jerry ! You should have got off the internet, and worked the field !!!


----------



## mdfriday

Mr Rewire,

I hope you have done your homework. WMBE only works if she is inextricably involved in the business. She has to RUN it, not just be on the paper. If not, it could constitute fraud....

Also, that designation only helps getting work if it is required for that job (typically government funded crap)..

Just some FYI, hopefully you knew already....


----------



## Mr Rewire

mdfriday said:


> Mr Rewire,
> 
> I hope you have done your homework. WMBE only works if she is inextricably involved in the business. She has to RUN it, not just be on the paper. If not, it could constitute fraud....
> 
> Also, that designation only helps getting work if it is required for that job (typically government funded crap)..
> 
> Just some FYI, hopefully you knew already....


 I have researched WMBE requirements and government funded crap is what we are after.:thumbsup:


----------



## brian john

Robyn, Rewire,

You two come across like loving brothers that cannot be in the same room, because you always are arguing. We all know you two have issues. Can you take your issues out in the backyard (IM) so the rest of the family can discuss the issue at hand.

And do not say - IT WAS HIS FAULT or I DID NOT START IT HE DID.


----------



## Cletis

*2*

If you put them in the honeymoon suite in gatlinberg for a week and locked the door they would come out lovers and this would all be over.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Cletis said:


> If you put them in the honeymoon suite in gatlinberg for a week and locked the door they would come out lovers and this would all be over.


 You want to make it a threesome:blink::no:


----------



## Cletis

*triple*

Naw, I was thinking more of jessica alba and jessica fox for that. the 3 of us would probably not be a pretty site unless your into the village people and stuff like that


----------



## robnj772

brian john said:


> Robyn, Rewire,
> 
> You two come across like loving brothers that cannot be in the same room, because you always are arguing. We all know you two have issues. Can you take your issues out in the backyard (IM) so the rest of the family can discuss the issue at hand.
> 
> And do not say - IT WAS HIS FAULT or I DID NOT START IT HE DID.


 
Funny that I am singled out since there are a lot of other guys that have had it with Rewires comments.

The powers to be just keep deleting comments which are further feeding into his imaginary power trip........:no::no::no:


----------



## brian john

robnj772 said:


> Funny that I am singled out since there are a lot of other guys that have had it with Rewires comments.
> 
> The powers to be just keep deleting comments which are further feeding into his imaginary power trip........:no::no::no:


 
No power trip, 

It has to do with an ongoing battle between you two. Do other members have on going back and forth battles? YES, Have I done it yes, but you two have an endless boring off topic battle, that just gets old.

I seldom delete comments, I seldom question members post, I am one of the more open laid back Mods. When I think it is tiring, IMO it must be boring.

That's all.


----------



## LERelec

Another flat rate job install 4 recessed cans with a dimmer in basement access in closet to run switch leg fed was already at switch. Price $650. Time 3 hrs, stock was $100-125. Thank you.
Oh right after I get a service call tripped breaker, so I try and walk the home owner through reset process. Needless to say $125 later and a reset breaker amd I'm gone so service call paid for early jobs stock what a win for less than 5 hrs work nice lil profit.

Ok me rewire where did I go wrong


----------



## macmikeman

LERelec said:


> Another flat rate job install 4 recessed cans with a dimmer in basement access in closet to run switch leg fed was already at switch. Price $650. Time 3 hrs, stock was $100-125. Thank you.
> Oh right after I get a service call tripped breaker, so I try and walk the home owner through reset process. Needless to say $125 later and a reset breaker amd I'm gone so service call paid for early jobs stock what a win for less than 5 hrs work nice lil profit.
> 
> Ok me rewire where did I go wrong


Well if I may, I did the same with only 3 cans last week for $950 and tax................ you under charged.


----------



## LERelec

macmikeman said:


> Well if I may, I did the same with only 3 cans last week for $950 and tax................ you under charged.


Well I didnt think so.
ho said I was the highest bid he got but liked how honest and personable I was.
Still new to pricing, learning ya know.
So could you explain the 950. Maybe I am under charging but not to the point of worthlessness. I do make money. 

I started my own business in dec with less than a g(1000) to my name and now am sitting on 10k mostly small jobs like that. But would love to build it more. 

Accepting any and all comments


----------



## macmikeman

LERelec said:


> Well I didnt think so.
> ho said I was the highest bid he got but liked how honest and personable I was.
> Still new to pricing, learning ya know.
> So could you explain the 950. Maybe I am under charging but not to the point of worthlessness. I do make money.
> 
> I started my own business in dec with less than a g(1000) to my name and now am sitting on 10k mostly small jobs like that. But would love to build it more.
> 
> Accepting any and all comments


Quote" http://www.amazon.com/How-Much-Shoul.../dp/0966571916 This book goes into great detail on the matter. In a simplified enough way (it was written this way on purpose) that us dummy electricians who are not college educated in finance can understand. Mandatory Reading in order for you to get your macmikecredit token in the subject of how much to charge....

Really, no fooling. Just the best advice I could possibly give you is read that book.
__________________


----------



## TheBrushMan007

His pricing is higher than yours, because of a couple of things.
1. Billable hours.
2. He knows to the penny how much it cost him to run his business.
3. He knows how much profit he wants to make.

All his flat rate prices are based off of that. There is no more guess work and there is no more second guessing yourself, when quoting prices.

Now of course, all business's have different expenses, but do not be fooled. Just because you are small, does not mean you have lower overhead.

It sounds like to me, you are having a good start. Keep up the good work.:thumbsup:


----------



## LERelec

Well that's why I'm here to learn. And I'm beginning to see that just cause its me doesn't mean expenses are lower than the "really big guys",
Just different expenses.

And as far as growing my overall business I know it takes time right now I have the luxury of not having lots of debt or living expenses cheap rent. makes things a lil manageable


----------



## Mr Rewire

LERelec said:


> Another flat rate job install 4 recessed cans with a dimmer in basement access in closet to run switch leg fed was already at switch. Price $650. Time 3 hrs, stock was $100-125. Thank you.
> Oh right after I get a service call tripped breaker, so I try and walk the home owner through reset process. Needless to say $125 later and a reset breaker amd I'm gone so service call paid for early jobs stock what a win for less than 5 hrs work nice lil profit.
> 
> Ok me rewire where did I go wrong


 How did you arrive at $650.00? Why did you charge $125.00 for the service call. Was that 3 hours for one man or two.? did you count unbillable hours?Is your material $100.00 or $125.00 and was that before markup? At the service call did you determine what caused the breaker to trip? 

First you need to know your costs then using that as a base you need to figure your projected costs. If you are spending $100.00 a month on advertising but would like to spend $300.00 a month then $300.00 is your projected cost. 
You want to base your price on your projected costs and not what your costs are right now. This is how some get into trouble they have one cost today but a year from now thier costs have increased but they are still basing on the older costs. Keep changing your rates and you will lose customers so look ahead when setting that rate.


----------



## LERelec

Mr Rewire said:


> How did you arrive at $650.00? Why did you charge $125.00 for the service call. Was that 3 hours for one man or two.? did you count unbillable hours?Is your material $100.00 or $125.00 and was that before markup? At the service call did you determine what caused the breaker to trip?
> 
> First you need to know your costs then using that as a base you need to figure your projected costs. If you are spending $100.00 a month on advertising but would like to spend $300.00 a month then $300.00 is your projected cost.
> You want to base your price on your projected costs and not what your costs are right now. This is how some get into trouble they have one cost today but a year from now thier costs have increased but they are still basing on the older costs. Keep changing your rates and you will lose customers so look ahead when setting that rate.


and that is what i am trying to do i mean seriously all of you have some bright ideas and some also have dumb ideas and some of you are both myself included.

but all in all mr rewire unless you were born with this superior knowledge how did you get it, by asking-talking-researching-learning-adapting-overcoming-the list goes on. unfortunately for me i didnt work for any companies who tried to teach estimating. 

as far as pricing the service call i usually charge $85/hr for me and helper pay him cash not full time- but after reading(reasearch) i decided to charge $125/hr for tripped breakers and gfci- bulb replacement-etc. i'm very good at trouble shooting and tracing circuits.

cans- i worked for an individual and he would charge by the device or fixture etc an assembly and he was charging 125 for old work cans and 75 for switch plus dimmer so i added an extra 75 for incidentials and knew i could get job done with ease it was newer construction.


----------



## robnj772

brian john said:


> No power trip,
> 
> It has to do with an ongoing battle between you two. Do other members have on going back and forth battles? YES, Have I done it yes, but you two have an endless boring off topic battle, that just gets old.
> 
> I seldom delete comments, I seldom question members post, I am one of the more open laid back Mods. When I think it is tiring, IMO it must be boring.
> 
> That's all.


I didn't say you were on a power trip I meant rewire.


There are NINE different people rewire is "bickering" with on just this thread alone

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/do-i-send-guy-bill-24760/index7/

And I am not even one of the nine.

I am sure if rewire got under your skin like he has most of us with his lies, grandstanding,condescending, and holier than thou attitude you would feel the same way towards him.

Remember last time he did this then had a meltdown and asked to be removed from the forum?

You didn't delete the posts I can make a very good guess at who did I knew it wasn't you because your not like that.

Don't make me the refailure scapegoat is all I am trying to say. You could ban me right now and the rewire fight would not go away.

My posts about him are alot more on topic them most of the PVC sckotckote hack bull****


----------



## Mr Rewire

LERelec said:


> and that is what i am trying to do i mean seriously all of you have some bright ideas and some also have dumb ideas and some of you are both myself included.
> 
> but all in all mr rewire unless you were born with this superior knowledge how did you get it, by asking-talking-researching-learning-adapting-overcoming-the list goes on. unfortunately for me i didnt work for any companies who tried to teach estimating.
> 
> as far as pricing the service call i usually charge $85/hr for me and helper pay him cash not full time- but after reading(reasearch) i decided to charge $125/hr for tripped breakers and gfci- bulb replacement-etc. i'm very good at trouble shooting and tracing circuits.
> 
> cans- i worked for an individual and he would charge by the device or fixture etc an assembly and he was charging 125 for old work cans and 75 for switch plus dimmer so i added an extra 75 for incidentials and knew i could get job done with ease it was newer construction.


 Cash to the helper can get you in hot water. If he is an employee bite the bullet and pay him as an employee its part of the cost of doing business.
As for estimating it will always take longer than you think.A nice program is National estimator it is easy to work with and you can adjust prices as needed.
Treat yourself as an employee of your business when figuring out your costs.I would not rush out and buy a flat rate program you can develope your own easily based on past experience and whtat you do in your market.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

robnj772 said:


> I didn't say you were on a power trip I meant rewire.
> 
> 
> There are NINE different people rewire is "bickering" with on just this thread alone
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/do-i-send-guy-bill-24760/index7/
> 
> And I am not even one of the nine.
> 
> I am sure if rewire got under your skin like he has most of us with his lies, grandstanding,condescending, and holier than thou attitude you would feel the same way towards him.
> 
> Remember last time he did this then had a meltdown and asked to be removed from the forum?
> 
> You didn't delete the posts I can make a very good guess at who did I knew it wasn't you because your not like that.
> 
> Don't make me the refailure scapegoat is all I am trying to say. You could ban me right now and the rewire fight would not go away.
> 
> My posts about him are alot more on topic them most of the PVC sckotckote hack bull****


Talk about grandstanding....It seems you were asked to stop and yet you continue to grandstand on the open forum and talk junk about another member. If you have issue pm the mods or Nathan and stop taking the thread off topic.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Mr Rewire said:


> you can develope your own easily based on past experience and whtat you do in your market.


Sorry Rewire you are wrong. There is nothing easy about creating software. This gentlemen is a new contractor. He does not have years of job actuals to go on.

It took me over three years to make mine and over another year to create the new one coming out in August.

I have a data base of assemblies over 25,000. Being able to create these assemblies is daunting task.
You have to have the correct count of items for each task.
The correct items for that assembly.
The ability to be able to change prices instantly.
The list goes on and on. Then couple that with the extensive amount of knowledge you must need to write code.

I have Accubid along with many other programs. Could I build a program like Accubid? Yes, but it would take me around 5 years working full time on it. I don't have that kind of time any longer. I would just rather spend the $3300.00 for it. It's paid for itself many times over. It's an investment in your future, if that's the kind of work you do.


----------



## Island Electric

*


Mr Rewire said:



First you need to know your costs then using that as a base you need to figure your projected costs. If you are spending $100.00 a month on advertising but would like to spend $300.00 a month then $300.00 is your projected cost. 
You want to base your price on your projected costs and not what your costs are right now. This is how some get into trouble they have one cost today but a year from now their costs have increased but they are still basing on the older costs. Keep changing your rates and you will lose customers so look ahead when setting that rate.

Click to expand...

*I do not know who you were back in the day with all the criticism you are getting now, But what you just said is some excellent information. 

About a month ago I sat down and made that list. I only allowed $2400 a year for advertising and now see how that would be a mistake. You are right I needed to use projected information for all my categories. Yes it would be a problem to keep changing prices. Just cut to the chase and lets see who will use your services. If it can't work then why bother being in business in the first place. This web site has been a very good source of information for me in many ways. Thank You rewire and thank you ET.com


----------



## LERelec

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Sorry Rewire you are wrong. There is nothing easy about creating software. This gentlemen is a new contractor. He does not have years of job actuals to go on.


no but i do have a very good idea of what items are required for each task or assembly. although i may be new to pricing and running a business what i am not new to im rather a jedi master when it comes to the actual work side of things including ordering all materiels for jobs now im just trying to incorporate all these factors into a strong and viable company that thrives on quality work and customer service satisfaction. now just making sure im compensated for that quality and service.


----------



## Island Electric

*


TheBrushMan007 said:



It took me over three years to make mine and over another year to create the new one coming out in August..

Click to expand...

*I like the idea of using the ipad for that app. I went into apple to take a look and told the guy who was helping me what I wanted to do and that you had a little something coming out and he was real interested for some reason. I hope I am ready when it is available. Thanks Dan


----------



## B4T

In case you haven't noticed by now.. there is no magic formula for pricing out jobs..

You can take (5) electricians and teach them all the same information on selling a job and get different results from each one on different jobs..

It goes more about the person making the sales pitch instead of the message..

The customer has to like what you're saying even before you show him the price..

I will say charging T&M will most likely ruin your day with a headache at the end of the job..

You don't hear customers saying .. It took him only (3) days to the job instead of a week..

You always hear.. "It took him a week instead of the (3) days he said when I hired him..


----------



## TheBrushMan007

LERelec said:


> no but i do have a very good idea of what items are required for each task or assembly. although i may be new to pricing and running a business what i am not new to im rather a jedi master when it comes to the actual work side of things including ordering all materiels for jobs now im just trying to incorporate all these factors into a strong and viable company that thrives on quality work and customer service satisfaction. now just making sure im compensated for that quality and service.


You should know the material items that go into making a job. I was expected to know this by the time I was a third year apprentice. But that is not my point.

My point is, if you are using flat rate software ,estimating software or making software, you and have to make 25-50 thousand assmeblies, it takes time. With any good software, this is done for you.

Then your prices are revolved around the three things I mentioned earlier.

You are the boss, you should know how to price, but when you grow and have employees, they will need the tools to be able to price jobs.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Sorry Rewire you are wrong. There is nothing easy about creating software. This gentlemen is a new contractor. He does not have years of job actuals to go on.
> 
> It took me over three years to make mine and over another year to create the new one coming out in August.
> 
> I have a data base of assemblies over 25,000. Being able to create these assemblies is daunting task.
> You have to have the correct count of items for each task.
> The correct items for that assembly.
> The ability to be able to change prices instantly.
> The list goes on and on. Then couple that with the extensive amount of knowledge you must need to write code.
> 
> I have Accubid along with many other programs. Could I build a program like Accubid? Yes, but it would take me around 5 years working full time on it. I don't have that kind of time any longer. I would just rather spend the $3300.00 for it. It's paid for itself many times over. It's an investment in your future, if that's the kind of work you do.


 You really don't need a software program with twenty five thousands assemblies unless you are selling the program. For a new EC three grand would be a major outlay when you can get a basic program like national estimator and then narrow it down to the top twenty jobs you do.If you can make a spread sheet you can build a cheap cost book.


----------



## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> You really don't need a software program with twenty five thousands assemblies unless you are selling the program. For a new EC three grand would be a major outlay when you can get a basic program like national estimator and then narrow it down to the top twenty jobs you do.If you can make a spread sheet you can build a cheap cost book.


I wonder how all the successful guys made a living years before software, spread sheets, and computers..

IMO.. spending that kind of money on a "program" would be better spent on doctor bills when you get your head examined..


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Mr Rewire said:


> You really don't need a software program with twenty five thousands assemblies unless you are selling the program. For a new EC three grand would be a major outlay when you can get a basic program like national estimator and then narrow it down to the top twenty jobs you do.If you can make a spread sheet you can build a cheap cost book.


You get what you pay for. Is that what you are going to tell your franchisee's? Buy national estimator?
Having the right tools will help any contractor.
Most pay as they go. 

You are still wrong, an assembly data base of 25'000 is only for 2600 tasks. I personally and many other EC's want to know exactly what goes into a job.


----------



## Tiger

Some of the great benefits of good pricing software:

Accurately pricing of work out of your pricing experience. Can you price underground PVC, IMC, NM, AC, EMT, landscape lighting, chandeliers over 60 lbs. requiring a scaffold, LV, etc.?

The ability to change the hourly rate of all tasks.

Material pricing updates. This is huge when material prices change as they are now.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> You get what you pay for. Is that what you are going to tell your franchisee's? Buy national estimator?
> Having the right tools will help any contractor.
> Most pay as they go.
> 
> You are still wrong, an assembly data base of 25'000 is only for 2600 tasks. I personally and many other EC's want to know exactly what goes into a job.


 Of course you are selling the software so your opinion is somewhat bias.:laughing: I think most of this software is way overpriced for many ECs and for someone without a big budget it is not needed at first. It would be nice to buy a brand new van but when your first starting out a used one often is what is in the budget. How about a simple program for around $500.00 that can be expanded later. Give me a basic resi book to start me out then as I grow i can get plug ins.


----------



## macmikeman

James, empty out some of your stored messages, your too full to send......


----------



## TheBrushMan007

macmikeman said:


> James, empty out some of your stored messages, your too full to send......


Done.


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## Mr Rewire

I came across this flat rate system and it looks like what a begining EC would find helpful and at just $200.00 much easier on the budget.
http://www.electrician-electricalcontractor.com/flatrate.html


----------



## electricguy

LERelec said:


> and that is what i am trying to do i mean seriously all of you have some bright ideas and some also have dumb ideas and some of you are both myself included.
> 
> but all in all mr rewire unless you were born with this superior knowledge how did you get it, by asking-talking-researching-learning-adapting-overcoming-the list goes on. unfortunately for me i didnt work for any companies who tried to teach estimating.
> 
> as far as pricing the service call i usually charge $85/hr for me and helper pay him cash not full time- but after reading(reasearch) i decided to charge $125/hr for tripped breakers and gfci- bulb replacement-etc. i'm very good at trouble shooting and tracing circuits.
> 
> cans- i worked for an individual and he would charge by the device or fixture etc an assembly and he was charging 125 for old work cans and 75 for switch plus dimmer so i added an extra 75 for incidentials and knew i could get job done with ease it was newer construction.


All the info Mr Rewire posts is already avaiable on the mutli Electrical Forums over the years.


----------



## electricguy

Mr Rewire said:


> You really don't need a software program with twenty five thousands assemblies unless you are selling the program. For a new EC three grand would be a major outlay when you can get a basic program like national estimator and then narrow it down to the top twenty jobs you do.If you can make a spread sheet you can build a cheap cost book.


TNE is Azz


----------



## Mr Rewire

electricguy said:


> All the info Mr Rewire posts is already avaiable on the mutli Electrical Forums over the years.


 Thats how I gained it "over the years":thumbup:


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## electrictim510

If you cannot afford to buy a program that can drastically improve your income generation, $3000 or not, then you should find another line of work, you failed. Sorry but I am getting a little annoyed with all of the cry baby stuff on how electricians are not making money but in the same breath they complain about how much people who are making money in the same business are charging.

There are two types of electricians generally, ones who are employees and employers. If you cannot learn to adjust to make your rates high enough to play ball the right way please just work for someone else.


----------



## HARRY304E

electrictim510 said:


> If you cannot afford to buy a program that can drastically improve your income generation, $3000 or not, then you should find another line of work, you failed. Sorry but I am getting a little annoyed with all of the cry baby stuff on how electricians are not making money but in the same breath they complain about how much people who are making money in the same business are charging.
> 
> There are two types of electricians generally, ones who are employees and employers. If you cannot learn to adjust to make your rates high enough to play ball the right way please just work for someone else.


:laughing::laughing:

I like your attitude.....:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## MDShunk

After enough time in the trade passes by, you can look over a job, do some math in your head, and nail a price pretty much dead on. In the mean time, I can see software being useful to a guy. After a while, you've done pretty much every kind of job in every style of building, and you know what you're going to be up against.


----------



## electrictim510

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> I like your attitude.....:laughing::thumbup:


It's not the way I am usually, but I have been dealing with similar people in the field and have had to fix work they've done because they were trying to cut costs, and then would not come back and do the repairs because they can not afford to do their own warranty work.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

MDShunk said:


> After enough time in the trade passes by, you can look over a job, do some math in your head, and nail a price pretty much dead on. In the mean time, I can see software being useful to a guy. After a while, you've done pretty much every kind of job in every style of building, and you know what you're going to be up against.


This is absolutely true. But the key words in what you said is *time and you*. As a contractor, I would not hire 3 guys for service work and then have them go out and price jobs without some type of book or software.

We also learn from our mistakes. Having a system helps us not to make financial mistakes.


----------



## LK1

TheBrushMan007 said:


> This is absolutely true. But the key words in what you said is time and you. As a contractor, I would not hire 3 guys for service work and then have them go out and price jobs without some type of bookwith or software.
> 
> We also learn from our mistakes. Having a system helps us not to make financial mistakes.


We have actuals data from jobs completed for the last 3 generations, and now my son is starting on the fourth generation and he has been putting all the data on a data index file so he can use it to price work and know going in the real cost to expect


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## Mr Rewire

I developed a quick cost book to send out with the guys it was fairly easy to create as we probably have around 35 tasks. One task is change out a single pole breaker, I didn't set up for every type breaker so a 120 single pole would be the same cost if it were a homeline,GE,or BR. Change a receptacle would be just one task it wouldn't matter if it was a white,ivory, or almond . I am trying to simplify what seems to be complicated.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

This is good. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you feel makes you the most money.


----------



## Mr Rewire

just e mail a picture to my iphone "how much to fix this"


----------



## jhall.sparky

Flat rate here's Why I do it. 

Service fee. "X" is service rate;
X=D1+D2 where D1= distance to job( up to 10 miles, 10-20 miles,20+miles). 
D2= trouble shooting rate ( eg. 1 hour cap). 
The customer is aware that service fee is due in order to reserve my
Time also this only works if you make the customer aware of the. Service fee. 

Then you write up an invoice based on the work needed to fix said problem. 
Example: estimated time to complete work ( this is where it gets tricky what do YOU
Think your worth) added to materials and you should come out winner every time. 

If the customer declines repair the SERVICE FEE is due , no harm no foul.


----------



## Mr Rewire

jhall.sparky said:


> Flat rate here's Why I do it.
> 
> Service fee. "X" is service rate;
> X=D1+D2 where D1= distance to job( up to 10 miles, 10-20 miles,20+miles).
> D2= trouble shooting rate ( eg. 1 hour cap).
> *The customer is aware that service fee is due in order to reserve my*
> *Time also this only works if you make the customer aware of the. Service fee. *
> 
> Then you write up an invoice based on the work needed to fix said problem.
> Example: estimated time to complete work ( this is where it gets tricky what do YOU
> Think your worth) added to materials and you should come out winner every time.
> 
> If the customer declines repair the SERVICE FEE is due , no harm no foul.


 How do you make the customer aware of the fee? Do you get many refusals to pay the fee? I can just hear one of the old codgers I have as a customer saying" I 'm not paying you to come out here and tell me your ten times higher than the other guy" do you get that much?


----------



## jhall.sparky

Not really my time is money. 
If they don't have the money to pay the service fee they don't have the money to fix THEIR problem simple as that. 

After all THEY called me.


----------



## jhall.sparky

Mr Rewire said:


> How do you make the customer aware of the fee? Do you get many refusals to pay the fee? I can just hear one of the old codgers I have as a customer saying" I 'm not paying you to come out here and tell me your ten times higher than the other guy" do you get that much?


I tell the customer after getting their info I charge "x" amount this gets me to your door and ill find the problem and we can go from there. If they argue about the fee I tell them I'm not in to running all over town just to waste gas and come up emptyhanded , if they don't understand they aren't really worth dealing with.


----------



## Mr Rewire

jhall.sparky said:


> Not really my time is money.
> If they don't have the money to pay the service fee they don't have the money to fix THEIR problem simple as that.
> 
> After all THEY called me.


 Our typical service call is " I have X wrong how much do you charge to fix it?"
Our response is Our service call is XX.XX and our diagnostic is XX.XX when we find the problem if its simple we can fix it at our labor rate of XX.XX or we can give you a quote if it is a major repair.

Is this somewhat how your script is?


----------



## jhall.sparky

Mr Rewire said:


> Our typical service call is " I have X wrong how much do you charge to fix it?"
> Our response is Our service call is XX.XX and our diagnostic is XX.XX when we find the problem if its simple we can fix it at our labor rate of XX.XX or we can give you a quote if it is a major repair.
> 
> Is this somewhat how your script is?


My service fee includes trip charge and an hour trouble shoot/ diaognostic. An hour usually covers it. Anyway................ here's the scenario ms. Holden cals and says my son just got home and realized the upstairs is dark. How much do you charge ? I respond I have a standard service fee it gets me to your door and covers all diaognostics , once I find the problem and figure out how to address it ill let you know what I ll charge for that.


----------



## Mr Rewire

jhall.sparky said:


> My service fee includes trip charge and an hour trouble shoot/ diaognostic. An hour usually covers it. Anyway................ here's the scenario ms. Holden cals and says my son just got home and realized the upstairs is dark. How much do you charge ? I respond I have a standard service fee it gets me to your door and covers all diaognostics , once I find the problem and figure out how to address it ill let you know what I ll charge for that.


 I wrote our script to avoid words like "charge" or "cost" I broke apart the service call fee and the diagnostic fee so I could give then two smaller numbers as opposed to one large number.


----------



## jhall.sparky

Mr Rewire said:


> I wrote our script to avoid words like "charge" or "cost" I broke apart the service call fee and the diagnostic fee so I could give then two smaller numbers as opposed to one large number.


As long as they know its not a "free estimate" and you can get you foot in the door.

Always always always show value!!!!!


----------



## Mr Rewire

jhall.sparky said:


> As long as they know its not a "free estimate" and you can get you foot in the door.
> 
> Always always always show value!!!!!


 The call one of the guys ran today was no power to the sprinkler control. When he arrived he checked and had power at the control the owner had reset the GFI receptascle but never went out to check.:no: He paid with no complaints I think he was to embarassed to complain.


----------



## jhall.sparky

Mr Rewire said:


> The call one of the guys ran today was no power to the sprinkler control. When he arrived he checked and had power at the control the owner had reset the GFI receptascle but never went out to check.:no: He paid with no complaints I think he was to embarassed to complain.


I do hvac also I had installed a gaspack for a customer he called a week later to ask if I give him a price on a steam humidifier I I gave him a price for the install and he said ok see you tomorrow. The next day I went to the supply house picked up my honeywell humidifier. Arived at the customers home he says hey I found that same humidifier online for less than half your price I said well man I paid half of what that web site charges you for mine if you want to reemburse me for the drive over and my cost ill give you this one he says but, I can't install that thing .... I told him that's where the rest of my price came from HE was speechless..................... some people huh?


----------



## JacksonburgFarmer

We do a lot of T&M work. Some jobs have to be that way. I dont care what who says.....you cannot ACCURATLY bid some jobs. If you have worked around a grain elevator (doing jobs while they are running) you know what I mean.

I can see where flat rate would work for residential, and light commercial, and for simple things like data drops, receptacles and the like. 

To say you are COMPLETELY flat rate, I find hard to belive. In a industrial service call, say a complex control setup (MCC, PLC, ETC.) how can you give a flat rate price to make a motor run? 

How could you give a flat rate price to change a motor on a fertilizer pump that the pump is rusted so bad it is fused in one with the motor shaft? 

Those type of jobs have to be T&M. Only fair way to do it.....


----------



## Mr Rewire

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> We do a lot of T&M work. Some jobs have to be that way. I dont care what who says.....you cannot ACCURATLY bid some jobs. If you have worked around a grain elevator (doing jobs while they are running) you know what I mean.
> 
> I can see where flat rate would work for residential, and light commercial, and for simple things like data drops, receptacles and the like.
> 
> To say you are COMPLETELY flat rate, I find hard to belive. In a industrial service call, say a complex control setup (MCC, PLC, ETC.) how can you give a flat rate price to make a motor run?
> 
> How could you give a flat rate price to change a motor on a fertilizer pump that the pump is rusted so bad it is fused in one with the motor shaft?
> 
> Those type of jobs have to be T&M. Only fair way to do it.....


 You hit the nail on the head. I can go to ten houses to change a light bulb and run into ten different situations that require different amounts of time to complete. 

Flat rate came from two trades that it worked well for but electrical has just to many variables to do a flat rate for everything. Even in residential you can have a two foot crawl space or a four foot crawl space each would change the time factor.Especially if you see shiny eyes looking back at you.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Mr Rewire said:


> You hit the nail on the head. I can go to ten houses to change a light bulb and run into ten different situations that require different amounts of time to complete.
> 
> Flat rate came from two trades that it worked well for but electrical has just to many variables to do a flat rate for everything. Even in residential you can have a two foot crawl space or a four foot crawl space each would change the time factor.Especially if you see shiny eyes looking back at you.


Flat rate books have some averaging built in them for calls like you are describing about the light bulbs.

There is a labor unit for everything, so everything can be flat rate or estimated if one desired.

One point that has been missed is this. Most companies that flat rate are charging somewhere between $200.00 and $400.00 an hour. They flat rate because it's easier to show a price upfront rather than telling the customer their company charges $200.00 to $400.00 an hour.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Flat rate books have some averaging built in them for calls like you are describing about the light bulbs.
> 
> There is a labor unit for everything, so everything can be flat rate or estimated if one desired.
> 
> One point that has been missed is this. Most companies that flat rate are charging somewhere between $200.00 and $400.00 an hour. They flat rate because it's easier to show a price upfront rather than telling the customer their company charges $200.00 to $400.00 an hour.


 Not to many companies I know get $400.00 to change a ceiling fan.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

I didn't say all.... but I know plenty that charge $300.00 or more.
Even some on this board.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> I didn't say all.... but I know plenty that charge $300.00 or more.
> Even some on this board.


 I guess in smaller towns it is harder to find someone stupid enough to pay $300.00 to hang a ceiling fan. Around here people get three estimates for that.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Mr Rewire said:


> I guess in smaller towns it is harder to find *someone stupid* enough to pay $300.00 to hang a ceiling fan.


Successful companies are not trying to find, advertise and service what you call stupid people. They are simply trying to provide a service that goes well beyond the normal expectation to customers that want great service.
They want to be able to count on a company that can fix their problems now. Some people want the very best and are willing to pay for the very best. People want to have the assurance that you will be around years from now when or if a problem arises or they simply want a new phone line.

Rewire, do yourself a favor and read a book or buy the 10 disc CD set called " Think and Grow Rich".
You will start thinking in a different way. IMO, your thought process is still in the negative and you will only go so far.


----------



## dronai

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Successful companies are not trying to find, advertise and service what you call stupid people. They are simply trying to provide a service that goes well beyond the normal expectation to customers that want great service.
> They want to be able to count on a company that can fix their problems now. Some people want the very best and are willing to pay for the very best. People want to have the assurance that you will be around years from now when or if a problem arises or they simply want a new phone line.
> 
> Rewire, do yourself a favor and read a book or buy the 10 disc CD set called " Think and Grow Rich".
> You will start thinking in a different way. IMO, your thought process is still in the negative and you will only go so far.


 
Agree 100% with thebrushman ! it's more of a sales approach, combined with quality service.

I changed my attitude with sales, and servicing my customers, and saw immediate results.

I made a good sale, just from one tip I used, from thebrushman.

Rewire- the best tip you gave, was the article that said, "without customers, we wouldn't have a business" ! This changed the way I treat my customers.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Successful companies are not trying to find, advertise and service what you call stupid people. They are simply trying to provide a service that goes well beyond the normal expectation to customers that want great service.
> They want to be able to count on a company that can fix their problems now. Some people want the very best and are willing to pay for the very best. People want to have the assurance that you will be around years from now when or if a problem arises or they simply want a new phone line.
> 
> Rewire, do yourself a favor and read a book or buy the 10 disc CD set called " Think and Grow Rich".
> You will start thinking in a different way. IMO, your thought process is still in the negative and you will only go so far.


 I had a fellow spend several hours telling me in great detail how I could become very wealthy and have abundant free time if I would just sign on an an AMWAY distributor.

I hung a ceiling fan in 30 minutes charged $160.00 that doesn't mean I bill out at $320.00 an hour but I could play a numbers game and say I do.

You are right some people will drive a Porsche and it is great if you are the Porsche dealer but I have noticed most areas don't have 100 Porsche dealerships.


----------



## LK1

Mr Rewire said:


> I guess in smaller towns it is harder to find someone stupid enough to pay $300.00 to hang a ceiling fan. Around here people get three estimates for that.


It is nothing to do with an owner being stupid, we may hang a fan for $150 that is just to hang it in an approved box at not more then 8ft aff and any any balance work, light assemblies or switch points , circuit wiring are at additional charges, we have flat rates for every fan condition or additional work needed. 
Flat Rate pricing works well for all residential, and most commercial service work, commercial construction and industrial work is by contract or contract T&M


----------



## Mr Rewire

LK1 said:


> It is nothing to do with an owner being stupid, we may hang a fan for $150 that is just to hang it in an approved box at not more then 8ft aff and any any balance work, light assemblies or switch points , circuit wiring are at additional charges, we have flat rates for every fan condition or additional work needed.
> Flat Rate pricing works well for all residential, and most commercial service work, commercial construction and industrial work is by contract or contract T&M


 What about different type ceiling fans.I put one together that was snap on blades that took 15 minutes to hang and then one of these fancy ones that was an hour just putting parts together. Our work is not cookie cutter so many variables that flat rate for every possible senario would be a book the size of the NYC phone book. Some of the tasks we do work well in flat rate but I don't see doing everything flat rate just to many options.


----------



## Cletis

*Variables*

There are too many variables....


I just hung one that took an hour to assemble. That wasn't the bad part. When I went to hang there wasn't even a box there. 2 hrs total 

On the other hand, I've hung one in 20 min total time as well.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Cletis said:


> There are too many variables....
> 
> 
> I just hung one that took an hour to assemble. That wasn't the bad part. When I went to hang there wasn't even a box there. 2 hrs total
> 
> On the other hand, I've hung one in 20 min total time as well.


 Hung one that was a bar that spun and had two small fans on each end that spun talk about a pain to put together.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Cletis said:


> There are too many variables....
> 
> 
> I just hung one that took an hour to assemble. That wasn't the bad part. When I went to hang there wasn't even a box there. 2 hrs total
> 
> On the other hand, I've hung one in 20 min total time as well.


There is not lol... these things are very easily handled by just a little communication.
By telling the customer something like this.
Mamm or sir, these are our prices for installing ceiling fans. If there is not an approved UL listed box in the ceiling there will be an additional amount of $XX

Customer-supplied - Standard ceiling fan installation -ceiling height 8ft to 14ft. $199.00

Add for ceiling heights 14ft to 16ft $99.00
Add for ceiling heights 17ft to 20ft $249.00

Assemble customer supplied fan -$59.00
Install UL rated fixture box from ladder $99.00
Install Ul rated fixture box from Attic - easy access $199.00
Install customer supplied light kit $69.00
Install customer supplied remote control $75.00

The list goes on and on :thumbsup:


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> There is not lol... these things are very easily handled by just a little communication.
> By telling the customer something like this.
> Mamm or sir, these are our prices for installing ceiling fans. If there is not an approved UL listed box in the ceiling there will be an additional amount of $XX
> 
> Customer-supplied - Standard ceiling fan installation -ceiling height 8ft to 14ft. $199.00
> 
> Add for ceiling heights 14ft to 16ft $99.00
> Add for ceiling heights 17ft to 20ft $249.00
> 
> *Assemble customer supplied fan -$59.00*
> Install UL rated fixture box from ladder $99.00
> Install Ul rated fixture box from Attic - easy access $199.00
> *Install customer supplied light kit $69.*00
> *Install customer supplied remote control $75.00*
> 
> The list goes on and on :thumbsup:


So for 199.00 the fan has to be put together and laying in the floor? Fly many lead balloons? If I told a customer 199.00 to hang the fan and then when I got thier told them putting it together would be an additional 59.00 and putting in the remote another 75.00 I would soon have a not so good reputation.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Rewire, those are not my prices. I was just feeling in the blanks. To give you an idea on how its done.:thumbsup:

I should have put $xx. beside each one, so you wouldn't get confused.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Rewire, those are not my prices. I was just feeling in the blanks. To give you an idea on how its done.:thumbsup:
> 
> I should have put $xx. beside each one, so you wouldn't get confused.


 Price is not the issue someone asks to hang a ceiling fan they are not expectng to pay additional to put it together or put in the remote. Thats like paying for a new tire and getting charged extra for the air.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Mr Rewire said:


> Price is not the issue someone asks to hang a ceiling fan they are not expecting to pay additional to put it together or put in the remote. Thats like paying for a new tire and getting charged extra for the air.


That is your opinion and you have the right to run your business the way you want.

Remember your Porsche example?

Some customers do not even know about remotes until you educate them.
The fact is, installing a remote, installing a light kit, installing a fan rated box, takes time. Time is money and I get paid for my time.
If you can't see that, then you are truly lost and you will always run a Yugo business.
I think I'm done debating with you. You are the winner.:thumbsup:


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> That is your opinion and you have the right to run your business the way you want.
> 
> Remember your Porsche example?
> 
> Some customers do not even know about remotes until you educate them.
> The fact is, installing a remote, installing a light kit, installing a fan rated box, takes time. Time is money and I get paid for my time.
> If you can't see that, then you are truly lost and you will always run a Yugo business.
> I think I'm done debating with you. You are the winner.:thumbsup:


 If I pulled the remote out of the box and told the customer it was going to be extra to put it in they would probably pay but I would not be on their recommend list. Thats why long term relationships with customers will never be achieved with flat rate ripoffs. 

Maybe you will get lucky and get rich before you run out of people to screw.


----------



## TheBrushMan007

Too funny, nobody is getting screwed. Customers have intelligence and they get to see the price first. Then they make an educated decision if they want to use us for their needs. 
That is the power of yes or no.
These customers call us, not the other way around.
Yes, we would like you to perform the work above for $X amount. Or
No.
It's pretty simple. Nobody is getting ripped off.


----------



## Mr Rewire

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Too funny, nobody is getting screwed. Customers have intelligence and they get to see the price first. Then they make an educated decision if they want to use our us for their needs.
> That is the power of yes or no.
> These customers call us, not the other way around.
> Yes, we would like you to perform the work above for $X amount. Or
> No.
> It's pretty simple. Nobody is getting ripped off.


So do you come out for free and show them this list so the can make an informed decision?


----------



## macmikeman

This thread is dnkldorf.......:whistling2:


----------



## HARRY304E

macmikeman said:


> This thread is dnkldorf.......:whistling2:


Where is he..:laughing:


----------



## Greg Sparkovich

Mr Rewire said:


> Price is not the issue someone asks to hang a ceiling fan they are not expectng to pay additional to put it together or put in the remote. Thats like paying for a new tire and getting charged extra for the air.


I couldn't agree more. This isn't an issue of hanging a fan for a flat fee or an hourly fee anymore.

Brushman, this is starting to sound to me like scamming a customer by omitting details (even by accident!) or *sounding* like a scam artist by adding a lot of confusing information.
I'm guessing that, in real life, your presentation is clearer than this.

I can see the need for help pricing jobs for some contractors, but really what I've learned from this discussion is that there are some electricians who charge a lot more than me and only get 20% of their jobs.
The 80% of people who would turn them down are now telling their friends "don't call that guy; his prices are ridiculous".

Conclusion? My guess is that said electricians have to spend a lot more money than I do to advertise to get new customers since mine come to me for free from recommendations and my advertising expenditures are $0.

Clearly both of these methods work since we can both afford to spend time on the internet posting about stuff! XD


----------



## oldman

macmikeman said:


> This thread is dnkldorf.......:whistling2:


:laughing:
F**k, just spit coffee on my xoom....thanks macmikeman

Here you go Jim, might have better luck explaining it to this


----------



## Mr Rewire

learn how to resize your pics :no:


----------



## Island Electric

*


TheBrushMan007 said:



There is not lol... these things are very easily handled by just a little communication.
By telling the customer something like this.
Mamm or sir, these are our prices for installing ceiling fans. If there is not an approved UL listed box in the ceiling there will be an additional amount of $XX

Customer-supplied - Standard ceiling fan installation -ceiling height 8ft to 14ft. $199.00

Add for ceiling heights 14ft to 16ft $99.00
Add for ceiling heights 17ft to 20ft $249.00

Assemble customer supplied fan -$59.00
Install UL rated fixture box from ladder $99.00
Install Ul rated fixture box from Attic - easy access $199.00
Install customer supplied light kit $69.00
Install customer supplied remote control $75.00

The list goes on and on :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

*I see nothing wrong with this because he said these are made up numbers. So all he is saying is if the fan is together it is this much If I assemble it, it is that much, if I mount a box it's this much. Remember all they are seeing is the grand total. I don't know about you guys but I got tired of working for 50-75 an hour. I'm just glad I learned this sooner than later. Sometimes if I see something that looks way out of line I will adjust but it is very slight. I'm an Electrician not a laborer. 

Why are some of you so afraid to charge people.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Island Electric said:


> I see nothing wrong with this because he said these are made up numbers. So all he is saying is if the fan is together it is this much If I assemble it, it is that much, if I mount a box it's this much. Remember all they are seeing is the grand total. I don't know about you guys but I got tired of working for 50-75 an hour. I'm just glad I learned this sooner than later. Sometimes if I see something that looks way out of line I will adjust but it is very slight. I'm an Electrician not a laborer.
> 
> Why are some of you so afraid to charge people.


 I do charge ,I have been told on several occasions I am higher than everyone else.


----------



## LERelec

Mr Rewire said:


> I do charge ,I have been told on several occasions I am higher than everyone else.


Yes cause every time you compete against other ec's you'll always be the highest its a customer technique to get you to drop price. Weather the ec does or not is a totally dif story


----------



## LK1

LERelec said:


> Yes cause every time you compete against other ec's you'll always be the highest its a customer technique to get you to drop price. Weather the ec does or not is a totally dif story


Just say your the highest because your the best


----------



## gold

All electricians should charge $15 an hour not a penny more. Let the job take what it takes. Anyone who charges more is an evil capitalist profiteer. Businesses shouldn't be allowed to make money, they should be forced to give it all away. 

Your way of doing business isn't as good as mine nanny nanny boo boo ... 

How dare you charge a fee to assemble my fan!!! You should work for free!! You evil tea bagger!!

[/SARC]


----------



## LERelec

LK1 said:


> Just say your the highest because your the best


I just had to today. I got the call back after a walk thru asking if I could drop price. Cause I was the highest which I know I was.so I dropped the price to what I really wanted. (i knew the cust was gonna haggle so I built in a lil buffer).

Job was a small panel swap out 8 cir max amd the piping and wiring of a well cir. Orig price -1250 cash price-1100 after the big haggle talk. 

I did inform him that he was getting the best amd thats why he called back. Price was close to others just higher


----------



## doubleoh7

LERelec said:


> I just had to today. I got the call back after a walk thru asking if I could drop price. Cause I was the highest which I know I was.so I dropped the price to what I really wanted. (i knew the cust was gonna haggle so I built in a lil buffer).
> 
> Job was a small panel swap out 8 cir max amd the piping and wiring of a well cir. Orig price -1250 cash price-1100 after the big haggle talk.
> 
> I did inform him that he was getting the best amd thats why he called back. Price was close to others just higher


 

I NEVER negotiate on price. Why should I lower my rate for someone who haggles with me. If I'm gonna give someone a break, it should be my good customers.


----------



## Mr Rewire

i got a call today from a customer who told me my price was high and could I do something about it so I raised it $100.00 :thumbup:


----------



## doubleoh7

Mr Rewire said:


> i got a call today from a customer who told me my price was high and could I do something about it so I raised it $100.00 :thumbup:


 
WHat did they say?


----------



## Chris1971

Mr Rewire said:


> i got a call today from a customer who told me my price was high and could I do something about it so I raised it $100.00 :thumbup:


:laughing:


----------



## ratrod56

doubleoh7 said:


> I NEVER negotiate on price. Why should I lower my rate for someone who haggles with me. If I'm gonna give someone a break, it should be my good customers.


Agreed! But it sometimes goes the other way. Some people keep calling me back so much that I have been giving them my REAL price which includes all the fancy things needed just to stay a float. I hope they dont leave me for the guy I used to be:laughing:.

Kind of feels like walking on thin ice but the more you do it the more confidence you get and you start believing and the CUSTOMERS START BELEIVEING TOO! Give them the best total electrical experiance they can get anywhere!:thumbup:


----------



## Greg Sparkovich

doubleoh7 said:


> I NEVER negotiate on price. Why should I lower my rate for someone who haggles with me. If I'm gonna give someone a break, it should be my good customers.


I think the idea is to inflate one's price for a customer who you know will want to haggle, and then come down to your normal prices.
It seems silly to me, but everybody is different.
I had a customer who LOVED haggling. I realized after a while that it just made her feel SO good to "get me" to lower my prices. So I let her play this game and I charged her even more.

I call this the "PAIN IN THE ASS FEE" -and I have used this to successfully:
1). Make enough money to make it worthwhile to work for this person and still give them excellent and cheerful service -or-
2). Get rid of the customer.

I'm willing to bet most of us do this.


----------



## LERelec

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I think the idea is to inflate one's price for a customer who you know will want to haggle, and then come down to your normal prices.
> It seems silly to me, but everybody is different.
> I had a customer who LOVED haggling. I realized after a while that it just made her feel SO good to "get me" to lower my prices. So I let her play this game and I charged her even more.
> 
> I call this the "PAIN IN THE ASS FEE" -and I have used this to successfully:
> 1). Make enough money to make it worthwhile to work for this person and still give them excellent and cheerful service -or-
> 2). Get rid of the customer.
> 
> I'm willing to bet most of us do this.


Well now someone knows how to read.

No one wants to be haggled on their price and the only ec's who won't haggle r the ones who dont need the job one way or another.

even the big ec's get haggled. I mean dont you ec's haggle your prices with your suppliers. WHAT YOU DONT CALL A FEW DIFFERENT SUPPLY HOUSES TO GET A BETTER PRICE BLASPHEMY. 

I LOVE THE EC'S ON HERE I DONT LET MY CUSTOMER HAGGLE ME CAUSE THATS UN ETHICAL. BUT YOU CAN HAGGLE YOUR STOCK PRICES. COME ON AND GET OVER YOURSELVES


----------



## Mr Rewire

I have clients from India who want to haggle so I always allow an extra fifty so I can give them a "special" price.


----------



## robnj772

LERelec said:


> Well now someone knows how to read.
> 
> No one wants to be haggled on their price and the only ec's who won't haggle r the ones who dont need the job one way or another.
> 
> even the big ec's get haggled. I mean dont you ec's haggle your prices with your suppliers. WHAT YOU DONT CALL A FEW DIFFERENT SUPPLY HOUSES TO GET A BETTER PRICE BLASPHEMY.
> 
> I LOVE THE EC'S ON HERE I DONT LET MY CUSTOMER HAGGLE ME CAUSE THATS UN ETHICAL. BUT YOU CAN HAGGLE YOUR STOCK PRICES. COME ON AND GET OVER YOURSELVES


 
I don't haggle. I don't haggle my supply house if its a fair price and I give my customers a fair FIRM price


----------



## Mr Rewire

As far as the supply house i will always try and get a better price especially if I am buying several of the same part. I also get a 10% military discount at Homedepot. And I get free samples of medications from my Doctor.


----------



## rusty_locknuts

You sound like a cranky old senior citizen. Lowes is the one with the military discount not home depot.Damn your too late for the early bird special at the Piggly wiggly


----------



## Mr Rewire

rusty_locknuts said:


> You sound like a cranky old senior citizen. Lowes is the one with the military discount not home depot.Damn your too late for the early bird special at the Piggly wiggly


 Home depot does it also.Menards does but just on veterans day.I also get extra ketchup at Mc Donalds and I always take the shampoo at the motels.


----------



## rusty_locknuts

Mr Rewire said:


> Home depot does it also.Menards does but just on veterans day.I also get extra ketchup at Mc Donalds and I always take the shampoo at the motels.


Wow man you sound like a big spender.Pocketing ketchup packs from Mc donalds??? I thought this was an electrical forum?


----------



## 24 big guy

robnj772 said:


> I don't haggle. I don't haggle my supply house if its a fair price and I give my customers a fair FIRM price


I call bs. so you never submitted a set of plans for a contract where the gc didnt ask you to do a little bit better on price. So do you pay full price when you car shop or when you buy a home, no you don't.

Every one haggles at one time or another. in my experience every one wants a deal so if you inflate your selling price in advance cause you know they will haggle where is the loss I say its a gain, 1st you upped the selling price,2nd you gave the customers a deal in their mind.

I do not inflate my price if I know they won't haggle, but when I'm leaving a walk through and the gc or home owner says make sure your pencil is sharp I tax them hard.


----------



## robnj772

24 big guy said:


> I call bs. so you never submitted a set of plans for a contract where the gc didnt ask you to do a little bit better on price. So do you pay full price when you car shop or when you buy a home, no you don't.
> 
> Every one haggles at one time or another. in my experience every one wants a deal so if you inflate your selling price in advance cause you know they will haggle where is the loss I say its a gain, 1st you upped the selling price,2nd you gave the customers a deal in their mind.
> 
> I do not inflate my price if I know they won't haggle, but when I'm leaving a walk through and the gc or home owner says make sure your pencil is sharp I tax them hard.


Who said anything about GC's? This is a flate rate thread. Did you read the entire thread or just the last fews posts ?

:sleep1:


----------



## brian john

> lly Posted by *robnj772*
> _
> I don't haggle. I don't haggle my supply house if its a fair price and I give my customers a fair FIRM price
> _




_I do not haggle with the supply houses, they know my stance I expect the best prices. I will check their prices and if they are not the best, I'll let them know and inform them I will not be shopping there again.​_


----------



## NolaTigaBait

brian john said:


> [/i]
> 
> _I do not haggle with the supply houses, they know my stance I expect the best prices. I will check their prices and if they are not the best, I'll let them know and inform them I will not be shopping there again.​_


You aren't the average EC either. You have a little more pull , I would think....I don't really haggle with my supplier either, I know they are higher on some stuff like romex, but i expect competitive prices on panels, tubing and whatnot...


----------



## Mr Rewire

Those of you who do not haggle pay for those of us that do.

thank you :laughing:


----------



## 10492

brian john said:


> [/i]
> 
> 
> _I do not haggle with the supply houses, they know my stance I expect the best prices. I will check their prices and if they are not the best, I'll let them know and inform them I will not be shopping there again.​_


 
Bravo. +1

I have 4 supply houses within 10 miles, and access to the internet.

I have called other supply houses, when I am at the counter of one, to check availability and pricing, and left, leaving stuff at the counter. 

I play horseshoes with the president of one supply house every wednesday night. The second night I was there, he asked why I don't buy stuff from him so much any more. I told him flat out, your prices are 30-40% higher than the place down the street. 

He don't talk to me much anymore.

I don't haggle, I just find a new place for materials.


----------



## Mr Rewire

Dnkldorf said:


> Bravo. +1
> 
> I have 4 supply houses within 10 miles, and access to the internet.
> 
> I have called other supply houses, when I am at the counter of one, to check availability and pricing, and left, leaving stuff at the counter.
> 
> I play horseshoes with the president of one supply house every wednesday night. The second night I was there, he asked why I don't buy stuff from him so much any more. I told him flat out, your prices are 30-40% higher than the place down the street.
> 
> He don't talk to me much anymore.
> 
> I don't haggle, I just find a new place for materials.


 So you burn 20 bucks in gas add several hours of your time and what do you save? I never had a problem getting a supply house to match a competitors price my time is to valuable to waste running from one supply house to another just to save a dime or two and the branch manager knows it.


----------



## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> So you burn 20 bucks in gas add several hours of your time and what do you save? I never had a problem getting a supply house to match a competitors price my time is to valuable to waste running from one supply house to another just to save a dime or two and the branch manager knows it.


Try putting a large list together and faxing it to (4) supply houses in your area..

You lose nothing by comparing prices.. and you can save hundreds of dollars over the course of a year.. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mr Rewire

B4T said:


> Try putting a large list together and faxing it to (4) supply houses in your area..
> 
> You lose nothing by comparing prices.. and you can save hundreds of dollars over the course of a year.. :thumbsup:


 90% of the items will come back at almost the same price the only difference I find is in brands like Cooper vs P&S but apples to apples most are pretty much the same. I am purchasing more from the internet than supply houses.


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## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> 90% of the items will come back at almost the same price the only difference I find is in brands like Cooper vs P&S but apples to apples most are pretty much the same. I am purchasing more from the internet than supply houses.


I get completely different results.. must be a Mayberry thing.. :laughing:


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## Mr Rewire

B4T said:


> I get completely different results.. must be a Mayberry thing.. :laughing:


 Maybe its just you :whistling2:. We have Greybar, Phillips and Butler Supply and the are pretty close on everything .


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## robnj772

B4T said:


> I get completely different results.. must be a Mayberry thing.. :laughing:


 
They probably want their money from when he went under last time :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mrs. Rewire

robnj772 said:


> They probably want their money from when he went under last time :laughing::laughing::laughing:


blahblahblahblahblahblahblah


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## gold

One thing about dealing with the same person every time over buying from big box or internet, if you have a problem with a certain product you have a person to call that knows who you are and knows your a loyal customer. When a vendor knows your shopping his price everytime you may not get the loyalty when you need it. I check there prices and if there hi I let them know but I still buy from the same people. Theres been times where I needed them to lower an entire invoice and they have.


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## robnj772

Mrs. Rewire said:


> blahblahblahblahblahblahblah


:sleep1:


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## mdfriday

Mr Rewire said:


> Maybe its just you :whistling2:. We have Greybar, Phillips and Butler Supply and the are pretty close on everything .


Graybar is always expensive here. There service is not good either.


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## B4T

mdfriday said:


> Graybar is always expensive here. There service is not good either.


Graybar here closed up shop.. they had a "cut wire fee" on top of high wire prices.. not a good thing when budgets are tight..:no:


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## user4818

B4T said:


> Graybar here closed up shop.. they had a "cut wire fee" on top of high wire prices.. not a good thing when budgets are tight..:no:



I hate Graybar. Worst supply house ever. There are never any customers at the one near me. I wonder how long they can survive.


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## mdfriday

Peter D said:


> I hate Graybar. Worst supply house ever. There are never any customers at the one near me. I wonder how long they can survive.


 
Thier counter is sloooooooooow. Even when you call in an order. They have a wire cut fee. And yes, B4T, their wire price is usually on the high end when I quote a large order.

They do not have a lot in stock, they have gone to a "zone" warehouse, which save you money invested in inventory, but costs your customers (contractors) time....

I am not a fan of Graybar. I will buy from them if they suit my needs, usually they do not. I like the smaller indepent guy who is in the "service" supply business, I fell like a customer. They are happy for your business. Graybar, you are an account.

I also like Steiner (Do not know if they are nationwide, I do not think so.) They are one of the larger dealers around here. Thier pricing is usually the *best*. Their people know what they are selling, and they are good with dealing with contractors (typically).


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## Chris1971

I'm getting a better understanding of flat rate pricing and how I can apply it to doing residential and light commercial service work. When applying flat rate pricing, do you still apply a trip charge or truck fee to the total cost of the project or is that built into the flat rate cost? Also, I plan on having an initial fee to diagnose or troubleshoot the electrical problem. I'm getting very close to implementing the flat rate system into my business operation and I appreciate all the input.


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## B4T

Chris1971 said:


> I'm getting a better understanding of flat rate pricing and how I can apply it to doing residential and light commercial service work. When applying flat rate pricing, do you still apply a trip charge or truck fee to the total cost of the project or is that built into the flat rate cost? Also, I plan on having an initial fee to diagnose or troubleshoot the electrical problem. I'm getting very close to implementing the flat rate system into my business operation and I appreciate all the input.


The trip fee is incorporated in the cost of each item of work..

It is a free estimate until I put my tools on.. then it becomes a "trouble shooting" or diagnostic fee for finding the trouble that caused the original problem..

You should be able to pin down the cause in less than 1/2 hour.. I charge $125.00 for that.. 

I also itemize my estimate.. IMO it makes you more money and easier to adjust the estimate if people add or subtract a line item..


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## Chris1971

Do you use the flat rate g model for residential service work? If so, any recommendations so it will operate smoothly?


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## B4T

Chris1971 said:


> Do you use the flat rate g model for residential service work? If so, any recommendations so it will operate smoothly?


Every house has a different layout.. you really can't have one price that fits all construction conditions..

I know Mr. Sparky and all his relatives operate that way by using a "book'.. that is not for me..

If I had a guy giving me an estimate and he had to check his "notes".. that guy would never get the job.. :no:

If I am going to a house to install one ceiling fan all by itself.. the price is high..

If I am at the house doing a bunch of other work.. the price for the ceiling fan is a little less since I am there already doing work..

Any job that I bid on and get.. I ask the HO if they got other prices from the competition.. when I collect payment..

I have never had a customer refuse to tell me his stories dealing with the other guys he called..

It is all useful information that helps you find out where you stand price wise and finding a "going rate" for certain items..


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## electrictim510

We do something similar. We charge a service fee that changes depending on the customers location and sometimes other factors. As long as it is normal business hours the service fee is applied to the job. So in essence they're getting a free estimate as long as they want the work done, otherwise they only owe the service fee. If it is outside of business hours we have a higher service fee that is not waived but is onto of anything else we give a flat rate for. 

We charge different rates depending on the problem for troubleshooting. For example; I don't care what the problem is, if a customer has a power issues I do not open up anything, no panel, no plug, switch, nothing until they agree to a minimum troubleshooting rate. I've seen too many calls die over "well there is the problem right there, thanks I'll fix that" or "well that shouldn't cost much" 

Our troubleshooting rates vary on many factors and time is only a fraction of what determines it. Our rates are anywhere from $75-$500+ with average being $250. And the repair most of the time is not covered, but is sometimes a minor fix. If I find a problem quick enough and the customer wants to go with a preventative maintenance repair like a panel, rewire, circuit tune-up I will sometimes give half off troubleshooting or more to help toward the bigger job.


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## vinroc

I have been charging $150 first hour and $75 each additional hour for troubleshooting. Four years ago I used to charge one fee of $150. nine times out of ten I find the problem within the first hour.

I have found T&M can be usefull when having to work with other trades.

I have used a combination of flate rates and T&M whichever benefited me.


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## vinroc

After trying the ES2 software I see more ways to charge and things to charge for. I just need to remember to do it.


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## vinroc

Hey Bushman you guys still have that contract?


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## TheBrushMan007

Yes sir.


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## yrman

electrictim510 said:


> I may just make a thread on the topic of how a typical call is approached when flat-rating. I'll check to see if anyone has done it already and if not I'll take some time to lay one out here within the next few days. There is a little too much confusion on this subject.
> 
> ...on second thought, that might be a bad idea. This forum is too public for this kind of post. :whistling2:


I'd love to hear how you do it.


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## yrman

TheBrushMan007 said:


> Eric has been trying to explain this to you since 2006, so I know this will be a mute point.
> 
> Once EC's figure their true cost of doing business and adding a profit, they find that they will need to charge more than the going rate.
> 
> It's a very hard pill for a customer to swallow if you tell them your price is $200.00 an hour. I know EC's that flat rate close to $400.00
> 
> The pill is much easier to swallow if it is presented to them as a unit price.
> Since you brought the GFCI's in thread, lets use that for an example.
> 
> The labor unit that I use for replacing GFCI's is .33
> $200.00 x .33 = $66.00
> GFCI $17.50 + mark up $4.50 = $22.00
> 
> Total Unit Price $88.00
> We have and many successful companies have an easier time selling GFCI's at a unit cost of $88.00, rather than telling the customer we charge $200.00 an hour. By doing this, I can be completly secure in my prices, I don't have to say there is a 4 hour minimum, which IMO will not work well.
> Now as far as the customer knowing the price of a GFCI for $20.00, who cares!
> My company is not making its living on the material profit. We get paid, for our knowledge, licensing... and a fully stocked truck with a drug free, licensed technician, that can pass a criminal background check.
> You can get a handyman to change out a GFCI for $32.00, you get what you pay for.
> Our customer's not only get a GFCI, they get an experience on what true customer service is.
> Some people wear Timex some where Rolex.


I saw a post on another forum that said essentally "I am not in the parts supply business. If you prefer to buy your parts online and install them yourself be my guest. The part you get from me comes with a truck, gas, insurance, installation by a trained, licensed professional, and a warranty". 
I loved that post.


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## electrictim510

yrman said:


> I'd love to hear how you do it.


I might write up something and make it available via message rather than open to forum. More than just electricians have access to the forum. I would prefer to keep stuff like this to those of us who deal with it for reasons I would put into said post.


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