# tell me what you think.



## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

What do you guys think of this?


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Clean work!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Bushing


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Bushing


Where? It's not required on pvc here


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Thus was my apprentices job. I told him to go downstairs and install the sub panel. The only instructions I gave him was make it look nice.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

are some of those switches in nthe down position when theyre on?:whistling2:


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

papaotis said:


> are some of those switches in nthe down position when theyre on?:whistling2:


No sorry. The picture w wouldn't load w with it right side up. The conduit it's actually coming in on the bottom left


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

3D Electric said:


> Thus was my apprentices job. I told him to go downstairs and install the sub panel. The only instructions I gave him was make it look nice.


Promising work for sure. Deserves a coffee and a donut, maybe even lunch.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

It looks fine.

You probably could've done that job in half the time and it still would work just as good as it does like that. Electricity doesnt work any better when everything is nice and square, than it does when you just go from point A to point B. And as an employee, I learned this kinda stuff never got me raises. Slapping up a bunch of 2x4's as fast as possible, or slinging a ton of MC on the other hand did....

Just something to think about. Looks good though.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> It looks fine.
> 
> You probably could've done that job in half the time and it still would work just as good as it does like that. Electricity doesnt work any better when everything is nice and square, than it does when you just go from point A to point B. And as an employee, I learned this kinda stuff never got me raises. Slapping up a bunch of 2x4's as fast as possible, or slinging a ton of MC on the other hand did....
> 
> Just something to think about. Looks good though.


Although this is true, I prefer to have one of my guys spend a little extra time and make it look nice. My main point I was trying to make with this was that I was very proud of my guy. He had been with me for less than 7 months and I have been very happy with his work. He shows up every morning ready to work. Never complains about having to do the crap jobs. I wish everyone had someone like him. I hope he stays for a long long time


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

3D Electric said:


> Although this is true, I prefer to have one of my guys spend a little extra time and make it look nice. My main point I was trying to make with this was that I was very proud of my guy. He had been with me for less than 7 months and I have been very happy with his work. He shows up every morning ready to work. Never complains about having to do the crap jobs. I wish everyone had someone like him. I hope he stays for a long long time


Pay and treat him well and he will. Let him know you appreciate how hard he works and I'm sure he'll be around for a long time. Good help is damn hard to find.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

3D Electric said:


> Where? It's not required on pvc here


If the wire is 4 or larger a bushing is required.. 300.4(G)



> (G) Insulated Fittings. Where raceways contain 4 AWG
> or larger insulated circuit conductors, and these conductors
> enter a cabinet, a box, an enclosure, or a raceway, the conductors
> shall be protected by an identified fitting providing
> ...


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

3D Electric said:


> Although this is true, I prefer to have one of my guys spend a little extra time and make it look nice. My main point I was trying to make with this was that I was very proud of my guy. He had been with me for less than 7 months and I have been very happy with his work. He shows up every morning ready to work. Never complains about having to do the crap jobs. I wish everyone had someone like him. I hope he stays for a long long time


Well Im glad you've got some good help. 

I look at things differently than some, most of the time just the bottom dollar, but I can appreciate good help. 

If I had an employee do a nice job like that, Id probably just smile with a stupid grin and tell him he did fine, and then maybe a week later Id break his bubble and ask him if he could do it a little faster next time. :laughing:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

jza said:


> Good help is damn hard to find.


Truer words have never been spoken.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The PVC connector looks crooked as he11.


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Did he use deox on the alum? 
Looks ok to me, and no one complains about neat. But making a mess out of it on the other hand. Job done by a pro should look like it was done by a pro.
Is get him that coffee for sure


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> If I had an employee do a nice job like that, Id probably just smile with a stupid grin and tell him he did fine, and then maybe a week later Id break his bubble and ask him if he could do it a little faster next time. :laughing:


I see where you're coming from but I'm sure if he had the chance to practice and perfect his method he'd be able to turn out a very similar product in a very short amount of time.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the wire is 4 or larger a bushing is required.. 300.4(G)


This is true. As a local exception they do not require a bushing on pvc though. I will be sure to tell him that this is not actual code, just a local thing


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Hmacanada said:


> Did he use deox on the alum?
> Looks ok to me, and no one complains about neat. But making a mess out of it on the other hand. Job done by a pro should look like it was done by a pro.
> Is get him that coffee for sure


Yes I made sure of that when I looked it over


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

480sparky said:


> The PVC connector looks crooked as he11.


I did give him a little bit of Hell for that. Lol


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Im not trying to be a real Debbie-downer. His employee was obviously trying to impress him, and it looks like he did a good job. Nice to see he's found some good help.

I, on the other hand, had my little bubble burst very early on in this trade. The guy(s) I worked for showed me how to hussle and get it done. I was rewarded by raises. Raises that other guys who spent more time being anal and making sure it 'looked good' didn't see. 

Its a tough business to work in. Just trying to give a different opinion to think about.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Im not trying to be a real Debbie-downer. His employee was obviously trying to impress him, and it looks like he did a good job. Nice to see he's found some good help.
> 
> I, on the other hand, had my little bubble burst very early on in this trade. The guy(s) I worked for showed me how to hussle and get it done. I was rewarded by raises. Raises that other guys who spent more time being anal and making sure it 'looked good' didn't see.
> 
> Its a tough business to work in. Just trying to give a different opinion to think about.


I really appreciate what you are saying too. He did take awhile to do this. But to be honest, he didn't really take longer than I thought he would for his first panel. Granted it was a small sub panel, but I was expecting a long time and surprised it looked nice


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Panels either look fine or like a dog turd. The one pictured looks fine.


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> Panels either look fine or like a dog turd. The one pictured looks fine.


I'll take fine over dog turd any day


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I was rewarded by doing excellent perfect looking work. Didn't matter what it was the customer always seemed to phone the shop. Bottles delivered, tickets to the local diner theatre., stuff like that.

Worked there 8 years. Given my own service truck right out of 4th year school. Drove that for another 4 years. Then on my own. Still get complements on my work.

As luck would have the shop was union. The raises came in no problem. There ain't nothing wrong with 1st class work. You run a company you want good people.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

Bushing is required your area can add to the code but not take away from ( I believe its #4 and larger its required may be mistaken), and a post or 2 down from that where it said looks dont make electricity work better, thats true however the panel is the only wirework people will see after drywall and impressions from it are huge I have takin a full work day to wire 2 lighting control panels when you deal in high end going that extra mile will get you many future projects. To the OP seems your young one has alotta potentialt.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Bugz11B said:


> Bushing is required your area can add to the code but not take away from ( I believe its #4 and larger its required may be mistaken), and a post or 2 down from that where it said looks dont make electricity work better, thats true however the panel is the only wirework people will see after drywall and impressions from it are huge I have takin a full work day to wire 2 lighting control panels when you deal in high end going that extra mile will get you many future projects. To the OP seems your young one has alotta potentialt.


Your state doesn't have it's own code? Our state has it's own code and it contains exceptions to the NEC. It either adds or takes away from the code. (SPS 316) The specific wording is "Changes, Additions, or Omissions."


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> I really appreciate what you are saying too. He did take awhile to do this. But to be honest, he didn't really take longer than I thought he would for his first panel. Granted it was a small sub panel, but I was expecting a long time and surprised it looked nice


Anybody that takes pride in doing work like that is a keeper!:thumbsup: Good job. I'll pay the extra time any day to have them do a neat job. Neat work is a gift that keeps on giving as the customer is going to be looking at neat, or otherwise work for a long time.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

That's a very clean panel, looks good. I know plenty of fourth years who couldn't make a panel that nice even at gunpoint. Nobody likes having to service a panel that was made up sloppy to start with and then stuffed with crap on top of it over the years. You may not be able to do anything about people hacking stuff in later but at least if the underlying original stuff is neatly done it prevents it from being a _complete_ trainwreck.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

3D Electric said:


> No sorry. The picture w wouldn't load w with it right side up. The conduit it's actually coming in on the bottom left


Dammit. I saw a sideways panel and it brought a tiny tear to my eye...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It reminds me of the work i did back when i started out....~CS~


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't even make up panels anymore unless it's big wire. Those picture perfect ones I see are nice to look at but the panels not going to mars or anything like that. Now i always let younger guys make up the panels. They get all excited like when my dogs see me grab their leash and they know their going for a w-a-l-k. (You can't say the w word out loud. )


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

How many equipment grounds under each screw?


3D Electric said:


> ...I wish everyone had someone like him. I hope he stays for a long long time


 Make sure you treat him well. Give him responsibility, hold him accountable, and look out for him when he makes you money.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Big John said:


> How many equipment grounds under each screw?


As many as will fit. I usually put two tho. Thats because I put 2 nmd's under one 2020 so I get rid of the grounds right away.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

I always ask exactly what my foreman exoects the panel to look like: a: a work of art, b: good, c: fast and good enough. they all have their own ideas of how it should be and I usually guess wrong. one foreman wants c everytime. another wants b. and the other wants a everytime. I prefer not to even make panels up for this reason.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

are all the gnd wire twisted together? :blink: this will be fun if a cable needs to be removed .

edit sorry i have zoomed picture and saw they are not


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> It reminds me of the work i did back when i started out....~CS~


...how about now?


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

oliquir said:


> are all the gnd wire twisted together? :blink: this will be fun if a cable needs to be removed .
> 
> edit sorry i have zoomed picture and saw they are not


I laughed when I saw that, I did the same thing on my first panel.



wendon said:


> Your state doesn't have it's own code? Our state has it's own code and it contains exceptions to the NEC. It either adds or takes away from the code. (SPS 316) The specific wording is "Changes, Additions, or Omissions."


I see, correct you are, I was always under the impression a state could add to the code but the code was the MINIMUM allowed, I was mistaken. 
Florida- http://www.nema.org/Technical/Code-Alerts/Pages/Code-Alert-Florida-28-September-2009.aspx
All States- http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php

Oh Indiana.....


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

The white wire going to 2 pole breaker that says "well" should be identified as ungrounded conductor. Nice looking sub panel.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> I always ask exactly what my foreman exoects the panel to look like: a: a work of art, b: good, c: fast and good enough. they all have their own ideas of how it should be and I usually guess wrong. one foreman wants c everytime. another wants b. and the other wants a everytime. I prefer not to even make panels up for this reason.


If you ask, then why don't you prefer to make them up. You obviously care. Who cares, do what they'd like to see done. You have your own preferences as well.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Im not trying to be a real Debbie-downer. His employee was obviously trying to impress him, and it looks like he did a good job. Nice to see he's found some good help.
> 
> I, on the other hand, had my little bubble burst very early on in this trade. The guy(s) I worked for showed me how to hussle and get it done. I was rewarded by raises. Raises that other guys who spent more time being anal and making sure it 'looked good' didn't see.
> 
> Its a tough business to work in. Just trying to give a different opinion to think about.


What if the guy just takes pride in his work? Why does it always gotta be a pissing contest?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

3D Electric said:


> I really appreciate what you are saying too. He did take awhile to do this. But to be honest, he didn't really take longer than I thought he would for his first panel. Granted it was a small sub panel, but I was expecting a long time and surprised it looked nice


Good boss you are. His skills will develop and when they do he'll become quicker. We've all been their. I think it looks great minus the few infractions but he's green and he's a keeper. He's the type that needs to start learning the nec because he's the type that would apply it to everything he touches.


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

I worked for an EC who wanted all the panels to look like this:









And wanted it done in less than an hour.... and was very anal about it. He would make you redo it if it didn't look the way he wanted.... and would fine you if you took to long....

And yes those are zip ties....


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Looks very neat , we aren't allowed to pull branch circuits through the main end of the panel and zip ties ? Bundling wire is also frowned upon.


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## Robert Thompson 6971 (Sep 24, 2013)

Hmacanada said:


> Looks very neat , we aren't allowed to pull branch circuits through the main end of the panel and zip ties ? Bundling wire is also frowned upon.


Yeah it looks nice .. i agree with the neat and professional manner.... but don't really like the idea of the zip ties....


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

After about 10 minutes I bet you could cut off the zip ties and everything would stay right in place. :thumbsup:


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Chrisibew440 said:


> If you ask, then why don't you prefer to make them up. You obviously care. Who cares, do what they'd like to see done. You have your own preferences as well.


yeah I do care. I prefer not to make them up because of all the hype. you really cant win with a few of these foreman. no matter how fast its not fast enough etc. one panel I was assigned to had 30 ft long coils, covered with soap and dirt. numbers at the end. about 20 total. someone really overestimated the run. old panel. most of the breakers, neutral and ground bar had correded wires in that had to be cleaned out. it took me about 6 hours to do it all and I got my ass ripped for taking too long. bad experience kind of soured me on panel makeup I guess.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

Nice neat job.:thumbsup: On the other hand, the homeowner would walk by that panel with the cover off and not even notice. Nobody cares.


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

Robert Thompson 6971 said:


> And yes those are zip ties....





Robert Thompson 6971 said:


> but don't really like the idea of the zip ties....


I like zip ties :thumbup:


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## samc (Oct 19, 2013)

The work is gorgeous. I'm assuming that's a 100A service or what not so shouldn't the grounded be taped all the way up? Anyway still very nice.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

fistofbolts said:


> yeah I do care. I prefer not to make them up because of all the hype. you really cant win with a few of these foreman. no matter how fast its not fast enough etc. one panel I was assigned to had 30 ft long coils, covered with soap and dirt. numbers at the end. about 20 total. someone really overestimated the run. old panel. most of the breakers, neutral and ground bar had correded wires in that had to be cleaned out. it took me about 6 hours to do it all and I got my ass ripped for taking too long. bad experience kind of soured me on panel makeup I guess.


Oh crap man! You know the best part about making up the panel?....The box of scrap wire you walk away with at the end. :thumbup:

Sounds like you hit the jack-pot on that one.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> yeah I do care. I prefer not to make them up because of all the hype. you really cant win with a few of these foreman. no matter how fast its not fast enough etc. one panel I was assigned to had 30 ft long coils, covered with soap and dirt. numbers at the end. about 20 total. someone really overestimated the run. old panel. most of the breakers, neutral and ground bar had correded wires in that had to be cleaned out. it took me about 6 hours to do it all and I got my ass ripped for taking too long. bad experience kind of soured me on panel makeup I guess.


 
6 hours to tie in 20 circuits?

holy ****.....what did you do take 10 - 30 min breaks and and hour lunch and count the time against it


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

jza said:


> Pay and treat him well and he will. Let him know you appreciate how hard he works and I'm sure he'll be around for a long time. Good help is damn hard to find.


 
Out of all the advice that was given, I believe this to be the best.


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## icraker (Dec 13, 2012)

Garbage.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

3D Electric said:


> What do you guys think of this?


I can't be sure because the resolution is pretty small but it looks like you might have doubled up on some neutrals. Neutrals are not allowed to be doubled up. NEC code 408.41

The amount of sheathing exceeds the amount allowed by the NEC 6 mm or 1/4" See NEC article 314.17 for clarification.

Also as an earlier guy pointed out...... The multiwire well circuit white conductor needs to be marked with red tape.

AFCI required? I only see one possible "X-Mass" lights? If that is outdoors then maybe exempt.

Recommend Square D surge arrester


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> Thus was my apprentices job. I told him to go downstairs and install the sub panel. The only instructions I gave him was make it look nice.


He must be an alarm guy! :thumbup:

:whistling2:

:laughing:


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

ablyss said:


> I can't be sure because the resolution is pretty small but it looks like you might have doubled up on some neutrals. Neutrals are not allowed to be doubled up. NEC code 408.41
> 
> The amount of sheathing exceeds the amount allowed by the NEC 6 mm or 1/4" See NEC article 314.17 for clarification.
> 
> ...


The amount of sheathing is a minimum of 1/4 in inside the box not max.

The well pump is a 240v circuit but the white must be identified as an ungrounded conductor.

AFCI protection is dictated by the code cycle that they are on.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

drspec said:


> 6 hours to tie in 20 circuits?
> 
> holy ****.....what did you do take 10 - 30 min breaks and and hour lunch and count the time against it


im telling you it was messed up, half of my numbers were gone so I had to traced pipes out to make sure I had the right circuit etc. the panel was jacked up to start with, not your usual pabel to make up. he quoted some neca standards garbage when he was bitching at me.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

chris.b said:


> AFCI protection is dictated by the code cycle that they are on.


Can you elaborate on this? What is a code cycle?



chris.b said:


> The amount of sheathing is a minimum of 1/4 in inside the box not max.


Thanks for pointing that out. :thumbup:


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

ablyss said:


> Can you elaborate on this? What is a code cycle?
> 
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. :thumbup:


The code year that they have adopted. They may going by the 2011 code or older and not the 2014 code when almost all circuits have to be AFCI protected. In Georgia, the 2014 is adopted, but in SC some municipalities are still on the 2005 code. Most are on the 2011 code. I am licensed in both states and go by the 2014 code in both states and some of the SC inspectors are asking me questions about the 2014 code.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

chris.b said:


> The code year that they have adopted. They may going by the 2011 code or older and not the 2014 code when almost all circuits have to be AFCI protected. In Georgia, the 2014 is adopted, but in SC some municipalities are still on the 2005 code. Most are on the 2011 code. I am licensed in both states and go by the 2014 code in both states and some of the SC inspectors are asking me questions about the 2014 code.


ive been on jobs lately that are still enforcing the 05 code


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> ive been on jobs lately that are still enforcing the 05 code


Our city just adopted '11 it cost almost four grand I'm new books.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> Our city just adopted '11 it cost almost four grand I'm new books.


what a racket


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