# Help with Wiring.



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

nutsandvolts said:


> I need to wire up a small panel. It is a hydraulic cutter that goes up and down. I need to have a 2 hand operation for it. So basically I will have the following: Start and stop for motor, 2 push buttons that have to be pressed together to make the cutter go down. I will also need a push button to make it go up. Of course this needs to be all momentary and no holding circuit in the system.
> 
> Again this is how it will work. You push start button and motor fires up, push on 2 mushroom push buttons and it goes down, if you let go of these buttons then solenoid will not be energized. Then there will be a up button which will fire the up solenoid, again no holding circuit. I would also need a e-stop circuit for motor to be killed if safety gates are opened.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


HW??


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

HW? Sorry what does that mean. I am new to this.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

is this a homework question?


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

No. I am building a panel at work.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

The up button would not be needed if releasing either push button causes the cutter to raise. You need to give more info also 

1. Hyd motor HP, voltage and phase
2. Control power voltage
3. Gates? How many


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

That sounds pretty standard for this type of operation. Just connect the two down buttons in series, and the easiest way to do the e-stop is to connect all the limit switches in series with the stop button of the start-stop. 

It's possible that some sort of safety regulation would require the use of an actual e-stop relay, but I doubt it.


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

The push buttons would be going to the down solenoid. The valving is so when in nuetral position it goings to tank. Therefore I would need a button to make it go up. Electric motor is 25hp, 575Volt and 3 phase. Control power will be 120 volt with a 50Va control transformer. There will be 2 gates.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nutsandvolts said:


> The push buttons would be going to the down solenoid. The valving is so when in nuetral position it goings to tank. Therefore I would need a button to make it go up. Electric motor is 25hp, 575Volt and 3 phase. Control power will be 120 volt with a 50Va control transformer. There will be 2 gates.


The cutter should up when the power to the solenoid is off.


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

No there is a solenoid for up and one for down so I NEED it to be two separate actions. Where would I find a wiring diagram for something like this so I can build it. I can troubleshoot systems like this but tell me to build it from scratch and I am dumbfounded.


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

Did I lose you my friend or is there no where I can find this wiring diagram?


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Relay for up and down. N/C for up. series mushrooms fires relay for down solenoid.. A release forces up. Are pressure switchs there somewhere? Anyone who does hydraulic circuits wanna scream at me for different standards? Im not much on electrical for hydraulic systems like such. Im curious to learn a thing or two


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nutsandvolts said:


> No there is a solenoid for up and one for down so I NEED it to be two separate actions. Where would I find a wiring diagram for something like this so I can build it. I can troubleshoot systems like this but tell me to build it from scratch and I am dumbfounded.


The problem from a safety stand point is if the cutter is down and power is off, it stays down. If something important is under it, how will you get it out?


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

I could put a pressure switch in and then it would go up with a relay involved but I want it to be 2 seperate actions. Where do I get a schematic for this.


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

With the up button. It will be a totally enclosed area with safety latches.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here, I scratched out something. 











Can you read this. No relays.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Crap it was upside down


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

Where is my motor contactor?


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

I think I got it. Thank you. I am picking up supplies tomorrow and will wire up next week. Thank you.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

If something is under it that shouldn't be the operator shouldn't press the button to go down. Lol


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nutsandvolts said:


> Where is my motor contactor?


The circle with the M inside.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Peewee0413 said:


> If something is under it that shouldn't be the operator shouldn't press the button to go down. Lol


Buttons fail, get jumpered and operators reach where they shouldn't.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

If they release the mushrooms and it still moves down hit the e-stop. Either way it should be locked out/off before reaching inside.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

If you want another opinion, i think you should find a really good industrial supply house and run this by their machine safety expert. This situation is crying out for a Machine Safety Relay to control all of the "what ifs". All A-B distributors are required to have a machine safety expert on staff now, that's a good place to start. Something like this will be REQUIRED by OSHA to have a qualified machine safety control system sometime in the next few years (its not quite a requirement yet, but it is recommended), better to do it now than to have to explain why you need to redo it later.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

JRaef said:


> If you want another opinion, i think you should find a really good industrial supply house and run this by their machine safety expert. This situation is crying out for a Machine Safety Relay to control all of the "what ifs". All A-B distributors are required to have a machine safety expert on staff now, that's a good place to start. Something like this will be REQUIRED by OSHA to have a qualified machine safety control system sometime in the next few years (its not quite a requirement yet, but it is recommended), better to do it now than to have to explain why you need to redo it later.


I don't think OSHA is going to be a problem on this equipment.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

At the very least, the two button control for the down cycle should have an anti-tie down circuit. This prevents circuit activation of the down button is held down mechanically leaving the operator with a free hand.
Get a risk assessment done on the equipment and follow their recommendations. Take yourself out of the equation if someone gets hurt due to a component failure. 
Protect the machine operator and protect yourself.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

OP. You are very fortunate to have someone do your work for you.
Why not get out pad a paper and draw this SIMPLE schematic yourself? You will learn nothing letting others make your drawings for you.

What level are you?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

JRaef said:


> If you want another opinion, i think you should find a really good industrial supply house and run this by their machine safety expert. This situation is crying out for a Machine Safety Relay to control all of the "what ifs". All A-B distributors are required to have a machine safety expert on staff now, that's a good place to start. Something like this will be REQUIRED by OSHA to have a qualified machine safety control system sometime in the next few years (its not quite a requirement yet, but it is recommended), better to do it now than to have to explain why you need to redo it later.





Tsmil said:


> At the very least, the two button control for the down cycle should have an anti-tie down circuit.


Great suggestions. Especially since the OP is fuzzy on how to do this, great learning opportunity.


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## kgranthvac (Jan 13, 2013)

I could make a drawing on Visio and email it to you.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

backstay said:


> I don't think OSHA is going to be a problem on this equipment.





> It is a hydraulic cutter that goes up and down.


OSHA is NEVER a "problem" until someone chops off a finger or hand. Then they will investigate and the first thing they will want to see if your safety assessment and mitigation plan. Didn't do one? Oops... Get ready for a shutdown, hefty fines and if it's really gross negligence, maybe even some jail time.

Other than that, no problem... :whistling2:


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

what ever your design 
do not install any hardware that will allow bypassing safety doors and photo eyes. (key operated by pass switches are too easily tampered with)
control panels can be installed outside of the machines safety enclosure allowing you to be able to test all the control and supply circuits.
also padlock your control panels.
only the electricians should have access to the keys.

when you install the control panel install indicator lights for each solenoid (mounted visibly on machine) (stack lights work great for this)
this will help troubleshoot the machine (if the button is pushed and the indicator lights but no movement the solenoid may be bad)
no light then fuse, relay, or breaker may be tripped or bad.

draw out the circuits and study them carefully, also check the design with other electricians, its valuable learning to get the opinion of others as they may see something you may be missing


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## nutsandvolts (Feb 20, 2013)

Okay so what I want to do is have a start and stop button to start electric motor. Then when I press the two push buttons it fires up a solenoid and the blade goes down. When the push buttons are let go I want it to drop the first solenoid and kick in another solenoid which will make it go up. I could do this with just a relay right? I also want to put a limit switch on so when the blade is all the way up it shuts the machine down. Help with schematic would be great. Thank you.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Is there a need to incorporate an interlock somewhere to prevent both up and down to be press simultaneously


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Use a relay like I said .. N/C is up N/O down. Have your down buttons fire the relay.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Im not great at schematics, as you can tell. How about this?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

JRaef said:


> OSHA is NEVER a "problem" until someone chops off a finger or hand. Then they will investigate and the first thing they will want to see if your safety assessment and mitigation plan. Didn't do one? Oops... Get ready for a shutdown, hefty fines and if it's really gross negligence, maybe even some jail time.
> 
> Other than that, no problem... :whistling2:


I think the OP is in Canada...:whistling2: so I think OSHA will not be calling or stopping by after the accident...Oops.


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