# What color neutral?



## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

That's the way we do it too.


However, people use totally different colors in different places so it's important to check for yourself.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

petek57 said:


> My practice has been to always use the grey wire as the neutral when dealing with 277volts. Some have said that there is no difference between using it or using a white.
> 
> My point, and I think those that I learned this from is, that you do not want to mix 120v panel neutral with 277v panel neutral.
> 
> ...


 
I say, see 200.6(a) and (b)


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

petek57 said:


> My practice has been to always use the grey wire as the neutral when dealing with 277volts. Some have said that there is no difference between using it or using a white.
> 
> My point, and I think those that I learned this from is, that you do not want to mix 120v panel neutral with 277v panel neutral.


The neutral color doesn't matter as long as long as you don't have two different voltage systems in the same pipe or box. Overall though, it is good practice to use only one color per system.



> Also breaking the neutral for 277 is alot riskier than breaking the neutral for 120 if you end up becoming part of the circuit.


It is no more risky to open a 277 V neutral as it is to open a 277 V hot, if you become part of the circuit. Don't buy into that wives tale of the neutral zapping you worse than the hot. It simply isn't true.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> It is no more risky to open a 277 V neutral as it is to open a 277 V hot, if you become part of the circuit. Don't buy into that wives tale of the neutral zapping you worse than the hot. It simply isn't true.


And the number of electricians that believe this 75%-90%?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Personally. I think the neutral often comes as more of a surprise,so mabye seems to hurt more.


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## fraydo (Mar 30, 2009)

I was also taught that 277V systems were to have grey as the neutral. Besides when opening a J-box that's not marked with the panel it comes from it's nice to have an idea of the voltage by checking the colors.


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## Shaffer87 (Feb 11, 2009)

I would never pull white with 277.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

s.kelly said:


> Personally. I think the neutral often comes as more of a surprise,so mabye seems to hurt more.


That is my theory as well. It is physically impossible for the neutral to do anymore harm than the hot of the same circuit. It must be mental.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> The neutral color doesn't matter as long as long as you don't have two different voltage systems in the same pipe or box.


Really?


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> That is my theory as well. It is physically impossible for the neutral to do anymore harm than the hot of the same circuit. It must be mental.


I was told that it has something to do with the load, since usually if you got zapped off a neutral the current would flow thru devices, motors, ballasts, etc. That's all I was told, I never put much thought into it since my main focus is not getting zapped in the first place :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

1900 said:


> Really?


Right. The code doesn't specify what color neutral must be used with what voltage, only that it must be white or gray. So it is perfectly legal to use gray with 120, or white with 277. But 200.6(D) says that where neutrals of different systems are in the same raceway or box, they shall be identified separately. And the color code shall be posted by each panel board.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

1900 said:


> I was told that it has something to do with the load, since usually if you got zapped off a neutral the current would flow thru devices, motors, ballasts, etc. That's all I was told, I never put much thought into it since my main focus is not getting zapped in the first place :thumbsup:


That's the common theory I've heard as well, but it simply ain't true. Think about it. What does Kirchoff's law say for series circuits?


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Right. The code doesn't specify what color neutral must be used with what voltage, only that it must be white or gray. So it is perfectly legal to use gray with 120, or white with 277. But 200.6(D) says that where neutrals of different systems are in the same raceway or box, they shall be identified separately. And the color code shall be posted by each panel board.


I read what you first said incorrectly. I thought you were saying that you couldn't put two different voltages in the same pipe or box, so I got a little confused. Now I see what you said, makes more sense :thumbup:


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> That is my theory as well. It is physically impossible for the neutral to do anymore harm than the hot of the same circuit. It must be mental.


That's not 100% true either. The neutral of a MWBC is carrying the load of

all 3 circuits when it opens.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Personally. I think the neutral often comes as more of a surprise,so mabye seems to hurt more.


 
I think that's pretty accurate. Perception is everything.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Benaround said:


> That's not 100% true either. The neutral of a MWBC is carrying the load of
> 
> all 3 circuits when it opens.


It's carrying the _difference_ of all three phases.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

1900 said:


> It's carrying the _difference_ of all three phases.


Sorta kinda, maybe. This is true of single phase systems. In 3-phase systems the neutral current turns out to be the formula I've posted below.



Benaround said:


> That's not 100% true either. The neutral of a MWBC is carrying the load of all 3 circuits when it opens.



I any case, in a 3 phase MWBC, the neutral never carries a current larger than any one phase conductor, and therefore the voltage drop across it cannot be larger than 277 V. So, if you open that circuit and become part of it, you will receive no more shock than from opening a 277 V hot.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Sorta kinda, maybe. This is true of single phase systems. In 3-phase systems the neutral current turns out to be the formula I've posted below. But in any case, in a 3 phase MWBC, the neutral never carries a current larger than any one phase conductor, and therefore the voltage drop across it cannot be larger than 277 V. So, if you open that circuit and become part of it, you will receive no more shock than from opening a 277 V hot.


so in simple terms - its a myth.


~Matt


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Sorta kinda, maybe. This is true of single phase systems. In 3-phase systems the neutral current turns out to be the formula I've posted below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Want the answer? Break the polyphase neutral and put a voltmeter between them.


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

Man i thought the nuetral was pink.


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## jimmyer (May 10, 2009)

*neutral*



petek57 said:


> My practice has been to always use the grey wire as the neutral when dealing with 277volts. Some have said that there is no difference between using it or using a white.
> 
> My point, and I think those that I learned this from is, that you do not want to mix 120v panel neutral with 277v panel neutral.
> 
> ...


 it would be nice if all the neutral used for the 277 volts are grey but theres a time foreman will let you use white for 277 system.so be careful
always double check the volatages or whatever you needed to do to make it safe.I work with foreman that doesnt think a lot about safety bec. they did not know that they are liable if something happened to one of his ccrew.....................


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Want the answer? Break the polyphase neutral and put a voltmeter between them.


Are saying to *intentionally* open the neutral of a MWBC?????????????????


Very, very, very, very bad idea.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Benaround said:


> InPhase277 said:
> 
> 
> > That true if the neutrals are all connected, but, We are talking about an open neutral, so add all the current up of the three circuits and get inbetween that.
> ...


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

InPhase,

The circuit is 480/277.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Benaround said:


> InPhase,
> 
> The circuit is 480/277.


Right, and the potential between the ends of an open neutral in a 480/277 system is........277.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Let's look at a scenario. You "become" the neutral in a three phase circuit and all three legs are flowing through you. Let’s say 20 fixtures per leg for 60 fixtures total. Until the power is removed you are getting zapped 2/3 more often. We are dealing with an AC sine waves not DC. Your *time* of exposure is greater and the resulting damage to tissue structure. 
If you stick you finger in a fan blade each blade has the same force and each blade will compound the damage.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Right, and the potential between the ends of an open neutral in a 480/277 system is........277.


But it's _amperage_ that does the damage.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

But the amperage is applied more often. In your mind take it down to once every 5 seconds instead of 60 HZ. Ouch oh , Ouch, oh, Ouch, oh.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> But it's _amperage_ that does the damage.


Right. But the amount of amps is equal to (277/body resistance). It does not matter what the current was in the neutral before it was opened. The instant it opens, the current stops flowing. When you insert yourself into the path, the only current that flows is that current that depends on the resistance of your body, just like any other circuit. 

Nothing magical happens just because it is on the neutral side of a load. The laws of physics still apply.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Let's look at a scenario. You "become" the neutral in a three phase circuit and all three legs are flowing through you. Let’s say 20 fixtures per leg for 60 fixtures total. Until the power is removed you are getting zapped 2/3 more often. We are dealing with an AC sine waves not DC. Your *time* of exposure is greater and the resulting damage to tissue structure.
> If you stick you finger in a fan blade each blade has the same force and each blade will compound the damage.


But all three legs are not flowing through you. When you open the neutral, the loads cease to send current along the neutral. When you get in between the ends of the neutral, the potential attempts to drive a current, but the magnitude of the current is dependent on the resistance of your body, just as Ohms' Law says it should.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

We are talking getting between a "shared" open neutral..
Poly phase would result in higher but unknown voltage.
In typical house "split phase" The voltage between open neutral is always 240v

A-120 -------(L)----- 240v -------(L)------B 120

If you open a live shared neutral and get between it.. poof..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Let's look at a scenario. You "become" the neutral in a three phase circuit and all three legs are flowing through you. Let’s say 20 fixtures per leg for 60 fixtures total. Until the power is removed you are getting zapped 2/3 more often. We are dealing with an AC sine waves not DC. Your *time* of exposure is greater and the resulting damage to tissue structure.
> If you stick you finger in a fan blade each blade has the same force and each blade will compound the damage.


 
With 20 fixtures on each phase (balanced load) the neutral is not required all loads are balanced and therefore the neutral is doing NOTHING. In addition if you open the neutral and the load is not balanced then you will over voltage some loads and burn them up, fry them. As noted elsewhere NEVER OPEN a MWBC neutral.

At no point should the current (negating harmonics) on the neutral exceed any one phase.


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## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

I've been an electrician over 25 years and I learn something new almost every time I come to this forum. I always believed the neutral ( I guess myth). The worst I was ever shocked was on the neutral of a 277 volt lighting circuit just like your talking about, so I assumed it was because it was the neutral.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

brian john said:


> ....In addition if you open the neutral and the load is not balanced then you will over voltage some loads and burn them up, fry them. As noted elsewhere NEVER OPEN a MWBC neutral..........


And here is why. :thumbsup:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> With 20 fixtures on each phase (balanced load) the neutral is not required all loads are balanced and therefore the neutral is doing NOTHING. In addition if you open the neutral and the load is not balanced then you will over voltage some loads and burn them up, fry them. As noted elsewhere NEVER OPEN a MWBC neutral.
> 
> At no point should the current (negating harmonics) on the neutral exceed any one phase.


I didn't try to give it a balance load, oops my bad. My point is if you are getting zapped by a common neural in a 3 phase circuit you will sustain more damage to your body than getting zapped by a single phase. You will receive three peak cycles in the same time period.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I didn't try to give it a balance load, oops my bad. My point is if you are getting zapped by a common neural in a 3 phase circuit you will sustain more damage to your body than getting zapped by a single phase. You will receive three peak cycles in the same time period.


 
Getting zapped by _x_ amps on the neutral of a 3-ph MWBC is the same as getting zapped by _x_ amps on the neutral of a 1-ph MWBC.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Getting zapped by _x_ amps on the neutral of a 3-ph MWBC is the same as getting zapped by _x_ amps on the neutral of a 1-ph MWBC.


No with a 3 phase you are effectively getting hit with 180 HZ. Your nervous system is getting a peak jolt every .00555 second, in single phase you will be hit every .0166 second. Medically you will see an elevated CPK, it mimics a hart attack in lab tests you probably will not see that in single phase shocks.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

drsparky said:


> No with a 3 phase you are effectively getting hit with 180 HZ. Your nervous system is getting a peak jolt every .00555 second, in single phase you will be hit every .0166 second. Medically you will see an elevated CPK, it mimics a hart attack in lab tests you probably will not see that in single phase shocks.


That's great that lab tests were performed to compare the differences, I'm glad someone is looking out for us. Where are the test results?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> No with a 3 phase you are effectively getting hit with 180 HZ. Your nervous system is getting a peak jolt every .00555 second, in single phase you will be hit every .0166 second. Medically you will see an elevated CPK, it mimics a hart attack in lab tests you probably will not see that in single phase shocks.


It doesn't matter how often any phase peaks. It's the amperage that is flowing that does the dirty work. As Phase A peaks, B is near zero, and C is on the negative side. So B & C tend to cancel out the peak of A.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

If you guys did see how the European three phase netural colours are it will really throw you off the track due there were few diffrent colours that it was used over the years.

Modern colour codes 

Netural - Bleu 

Phase A - Brown

Phase B - Black 

Phase C - Grey 

Yeah yeah I heard ya you say " *Grey* " but the grey over in European side is phase conductor compared to your North America side I know the Grey is used for netural conductor.

I will find a chart of old European colour I know I have listed somewhere as soon I find it I will post it here.

Merci,Marc


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> If you guys did see how the European three phase netural colours are it will really throw you off the track due there were few diffrent colours that it was used over the years.
> 
> Modern colour codes
> 
> ...


What baffles me about European colors isn't the actual colors themselves, but the fact that they have changed like three times in 40 years. Now, depending on the age of the building you can run into any number of colors.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> If you guys did see how the European three phase netural colours are it will really throw you off the track due there were few diffrent colours that it was used over the years.
> 
> Modern colour codes
> 
> ...


I thought it was gray?

Gray is a color.
Grey is a colour 

:whistling2:

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*Gray isn't always a neutral, even in the States*

In the 1923 NEC, the term "natural gray" was introduced as a color choice for the 'identified' (today called the grounded) conductor. The manufacturing method for rubber-insulated wires could produce either a white or 'natural gray' color, so both were accepted.

As time went on, technology progressed and thermoplastic became available, the color gray was made. Because of it's higher temperature rating, ease of installation, and smaller overall diameter, thermoplastic eventually won out and rubber's natural gray fell into disuse.

However, many electricians and inspectors misinterpreted the NEC and believed natural gray and gray were interchangable. Thechnically they are not, however. As a result, most installations used gray as a grounded (neutral) conductor. This was a Code violation. "Gray", for most of the time it's been available, could only be *properly* installed as an ungrounded (hot) conductor. "Natural gray" and "gray" are NOT the same. Natural gray hasn't been available for many years now.

It wasn't until the 2002 NEC that the phrase _natural gray_ was removed from 200.7 and replaced with _gray_. The end result is there are some cases where a gray conductor was properly installed as an ungrounded (hot).

So if you ever encounter a gray wire, especially in an installation done prior to the adoption of the 2002 NEC, you should ALWAYS treat it with suspicion until it can be determined whether it's a hot or neutral.



And this concludes todays' history lesson.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It doesn't matter how often any phase peaks. It's the amperage that is flowing that does the dirty work. As Phase A peaks, B is near zero, and C is on the negative side. So B & C tend to cancel out the peak of A.


I hate to type out this long drawn out explanation but here it goes. The names have been changed because I can't remember, it was 10 years ago. An electrician from the same company was sent to disconnect one luminary from a three phase 277 circuit. He did not want to disturb the office cubical workers so he planed to do it "hot". There were three rows of lights with about 25 fixtures each; each row was on its own circuit. The fixture to be removed had been added after the original instillation. In the junction box there were the three feeds, the home run and the added fixture feed. He took the tubes out of the fixture to “take the load off”. Next he removed the wire nut on the hot circuit and worked the wire out of the bundle, no problem, only three wires to work with. Next he removed the wire nut off the neutral bundle, this time he had 5 fires to control and the bundle came apart. The room lights went off and when he tried to get them back together he touched one. His had clamped onto the bundle and he could not release it. Through his spasms he knocked the ladder out from under himself and fell to the ground releasing his from the neutrals.

He was transported to the medical center burn unit were he spent the next six days. He did not have any visible burns on his and chest or arms. Every muscle in his body was sore and his “labs” were off the scale. 
I was working on upgrading the medical centers fire alarm system so I visited him every day and we talked quit a bit. I was also a person friend of his cardiologist from my medical days. 

The best we can figure his clamped hand became a “wire nut” for all three neutrals, none of the lights came back on while he was getting zapped and there were no arc tracks but there was multiple deep tissue burns on his palm. He is a sweaty guy and his chest was against the ceiling grid and his arms were touching air conditioning ductwork. He read less than 100K thumb to thumb, one of the few people that read less than me.

Did he contact all three unterminated neutrals? His cardiologist seems to think so, did that do more damage? That’s what the medical books say. But like Fox News, I report you decide.

Oh yes as far as working hot, not me, nope, nix, nada.


P.S. Good info on _natural gray_.

Chuck


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok guys here is my colour listed here


Very old system.,

Phase conductors - Vert { Green }

Netural conductors - Rouge { Red }

Earth { ground } - Blanc ou Gris { White or Grey }

Second old system 

Phase A - Vert { Green }
Phase B - Jaune { Yellow }
Phase C - Marron { Brown }
Netural - Gris { Grey }


Now as I mention one modern colour above my posting and here is the other one both are legit set up 

Phase A- Noir {Black }
Phase B- Rouge { Red } 
Phase C- Marron { Brown}
Netural -Bleu { Blue }
Earth Vert avce Jaune { Green with Yellow }

So now you can see why I have to take a extra step to be carefull with old colour and modern colour codes it can really pucker your day if not carefull with it.

Merci,Marc


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## tr_rooster (May 18, 2009)

I acually worked for a guy about 15 years ago that was using yellow for his neutral conductor. When I told him it was suppose to be used for the c phase of a 277/480 volt system only, he said that he had been doing it for years and none of the inspectors ever told him he couldnt. 

Needless to say I only worked there for about a week. (The guy wasnt very bright and I have no idea how he ever got an electrical license in the first place) .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

tr_rooster said:


> I acually worked for a guy about 15 years ago that was using yellow for his neutral conductor. When I told him it was suppose to be used for the c phase of a 277/480 volt system only, he said that he had been doing it for years and none of the inspectors ever told him he couldnt.
> 
> Needless to say I only worked there for about a week. (The guy wasnt very bright and I have no idea how he ever got an electrical license in the first place).


I took a master test with a guy that never worked a day in the trade. He was an office worker at an EC's they signed off on his 8 years and he took two master courses and passed the 4th time he took the test.

I told him it just proves any idiot could be a master he made it and so did I.


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## blindside (Apr 22, 2008)

the 1st thing we learn as apprentices is 
red=active 
black=neutral
green&yellow=earth

dont you always run a neutral???


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

blindside said:


> the 1st thing we learn as apprentices is
> red=active
> black=neutral
> green&yellow=earth
> ...


Not always. Sometimes just two hots, sometimes just three hots.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

blindside said:


> the 1st thing we learn as apprentices is
> red=active
> black=neutral
> green&yellow=earth
> ...


Only if the circuit needs it. You guys have a different system in use than we do. Our residential power is supplied at two voltages, 120/240. So we get two hots ("actives") and a neutral. Large appliances like the A/C or electric heat get 240 V, and don't need a neutral. Other appliances like the clothes dryer or cooking range need 120 and 240, so they get two hots and a neutral. And general use stuff like table lamps and TVs only need 120 V, so they get a hot and a neutral.

Black = hot
Red = hot
White = neutral
green/bare = ground


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

blindside said:


> the 1st thing we learn as apprentices is
> red=active
> black=neutral
> green&yellow=earth
> ...


Some things don't need them. Like resi water heaters, 3-phase motors......


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## blindside (Apr 22, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Some things don't need them. Like resi water heaters, 3-phase motors......



ok cool.
we run a neutral for everything, but if it works for you guys, and has done for many years, then thats great.
interesting reading how the other countries do it...
cheers,
BSIDE :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

blindside said:


> ok cool.
> we run a neutral for everything, but if it works for you guys, and has done for many years, then thats great.
> interesting reading how the other countries do it...
> cheers,
> BSIDE :thumbsup:


Not only does it work, but it's legal and saves money. I ain't complaining.:thumbup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

blindside said:


> ok cool.
> we run a neutral for everything, but if it works for you guys, and has done for many years, then thats great.
> interesting reading how the other countries do it...
> cheers,
> BSIDE :thumbsup:


So, you run a neutral to circuits that don't need one? I mean, like a 3 phase motor? What do you do, just cap it off?


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## blindside (Apr 22, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> So, you run a neutral to circuits that don't need one? I mean, like a 3 phase motor? What do you do, just cap it off?



no, all switchboards have an earth and nuetral bar. it wont work without a neutral. to a 3 phase motor we run 3 phases plus the nuetral and earth. RCD's wont work either without an earth and all new installs must have RCD's installed...
:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

blindside said:


> no, all switchboards have an earth and nuetral bar. it wont work without a neutral. to a 3 phase motor we run 3 phases plus the nuetral and earth. RCD's wont work either without an earth and all new installs must have RCD's installed...
> :thumbsup:


I understand the panel will have a neutral. What I mean is, a 3 phase motor doesn't use a neutral, so why do you run one in the circuit?


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## blindside (Apr 22, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> I understand the panel will have a neutral. What I mean is, a 3 phase motor doesn't use a neutral, so why do you run one in the circuit?


i dont make the rules mate!
i think its because 3phase cable is made with all in it!! 3 phase switches have a terminal for the neutral as well, so we use it!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Not only does it work, but it's legal and saves money. I ain't complaining.:thumbup:


Actually, systems outside the US save a lot more overall, since they pretty much run everything on 215-230. It's not uncommon for an entire floor to have every receptacle, including kitchen receptacles on one circuit.


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## blindside (Apr 22, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Actually, systems outside the US save a lot more overall, since they pretty much run everything on 215-230. It's not uncommon for an entire floor to have every receptacle, including kitchen receptacles on one circuit.


EVERYTHING is 240v here mate.
We wouldnt exactly run everything on the one circuit!! 
Kitchen would have its own circuit, lights on their own. And we do about 10 powerpoints to each other circuit...
We are digressing here, sorry about that!!! back to the neutrals!!
:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

blindside said:


> EVERYTHING is 240v here mate.
> We wouldnt exactly run everything on the one circuit!!
> Kitchen would have its own circuit, lights on their own. And we do about 10 powerpoints to each other circuit...
> We are digressing here, sorry about that!!! back to the neutrals!!
> :thumbsup:


 
A residual system does not need a neutral/grounded conductor to work.


In a residence you have a
One energized conductor (hot)?
One grounded conductor (neutral)?
One grounding conductor (earth)?

I think a three phase transformer is utlized in a neighborhood (depending on size of the area servered) with different phases feeding different locations the transformer is delta (unsure of primary voltage) wye-415/240 VAC 4-wire. At least that is what I think I figured out when traveling.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

blindside said:


> EVERYTHING is 240v here mate.
> We wouldnt exactly run everything on the one circuit!!
> Kitchen would have its own circuit, lights on their own. And we do about 10 powerpoints to each other circuit...
> We are digressing here, sorry about that!!! back to the neutrals!!
> :thumbsup:


Well I like the idea, especially when you add the ring circuits they use in Europe. I envision a 240 volt circuit run with our #14 awg 15 amps could handle what translates to quadruple the present limitations.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well I like the idea, especially when you add the ring circuits they use in Europe. I envision a 240 volt circuit run with our #14 awg 15 amps could handle what translates to quadruple the present limitations.


 
Lawnguylandsparky., 

To correct your goof on this one The ring circuit is allowed in UK only the rest of mainland European area it is illegal to run ring circuit.

I live in France so I ran into that more than once when the UK sparky come over to France and they were not really famuair with French codes and we do *not* allow ring circuit for safety issue.

most of radial circuit normally are on 16 amp OCPD or some case 20 or 24 amp OCPD depending on the conductor size. ( the 2.5 and 4.0 mm² is the most common size simaur to #14 and #12 )

Merci,Marc


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