# BIM program rant



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

> I miss the days of one set of prints from beginning to end, now theres multiple revisions and constant conflict resolving.


That is definitely because of today’s technology. The premier A&E software is Revit. The name stands for revision it. 

Navisworks manage is tougher to use than TeklaBIMsight. The problem is that you won’t get your drawings in .ifc without converting them yourself. With Navis manage it’s a full time job that you could make a whole career out of. Gannet charts and all. The software is endless. 

I’m curious what software you are using to view the model? Navisworks Freedom? The free viewer.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HertzHound said:


> That is definitely because of today’s technology. The premier A&E software is Revit. The name stands for revision it.
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Yes Navis works freedom. I'm not educated in the alternatives, are there better versions? 

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think Navisworks is definitely the one to learn. I think Autodesk's dominance is just about complete, they have AutoCAD, Revit, and Navisworks. I see other CAD around here in manufacturing and machine shops but not a lot. I do see architects using other tools for rendering, flyovers, etc. But for construction I don't see any real challengers coming up. 

I don't find Navisworks intuitive at all and I have been a lightweight CAD user forever. And if its a big model you need a monster of a computer. 

If I had to spend more time with it, and I didn't have to spend big bucks on it, I'd take some formal training. Here the community college has cheap easy to complete night / weekend classes. It's not MIT but who cares, I am just looking for some structured introduction. I can hack my way through anything but it's nice to sit back and let someone walk you through the place before you start hacking around. 

It is job creep but jobs creep, what are you going to do. On the bright side the more you learn the harder you are to replace.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

> splatz : It is job creep but jobs creep, what are you going to do. On the bright side the more you learn the harder you are to replace.



That's it right there.




> If I had to spend more time with it, and I didn't have to spend big bucks on it, I'd take some formal training. Here the community college has cheap easy to complete night / weekend classes. It's not MIT but who cares, I am just looking for some structured introduction. I can hack my way through anything but it's nice to sit back and let someone walk you through the place before you start hacking around.



That's all you need, time. The software is so vast it just can't be memorized from a class or a book. You do need the book or an online course, but you have to do it two to four hours a day. Rinse and Repeat the same books or different books. Each time you go faster. Each time you pick up on things you missed or didn't fully understand the first time. 



I think the developers have spent so much time developing that they don't realize the monster they created. That and the fact that they always have to keep the software changing to be on top. It just keeps getting more and more complex.


We will have to see where PlanGrid goes from here. It was/is great software. Simple to use and was a solution to everything you couldn't do with paper plans. Now AutoDesk bought them. They are already integrating the 3D model into it. It will soon be too bloated and probably too expensive.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

splatz said:


> I think Navisworks is definitely the one to learn. I think Autodesk's dominance is just about complete, they have AutoCAD, Revit, and Navisworks. I see other CAD around here in manufacturing and machine shops but not a lot. I do see architects using other tools for rendering, flyovers, etc. But for construction I don't see any real challengers coming up.
> 
> I don't find Navisworks intuitive at all and I have been a lightweight CAD user forever. And if its a big model you need a monster of a computer.
> 
> ...


I don't want to be too valuable.

15% over JIW wage is already not feeling worth the money ($34 per hour). For about $4.50 less I can never think about work when I get home.

This is probably heresy around so many SBOs but I want my guys to be able to function pretty well without me and I don't want phone calls and emails if I'm not there. I was already in that position and hated it. Then again...I'm probably already there, the schedule just isn't pinching us yet.

A formal class might be a good idea...if they're willing to pay for it.

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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HertzHound said:


> That's it right there.
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Do you use these things in the field while actively managing a crew? If I tried to use these programs and apps routinely I feel like I'd definitely be overwhelmed, but I'm worried if I don't I'm risking missing some important details that could be costly to address later that ultimately I'll be liable for. 

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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

TGGT said:


> Yes Navis works freedom. I'm not educated in the alternatives, are there better versions?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Freedom is a good viewer, it's just that I started with TeklaBIMsight. Tekla just seems way easier to navigate and way easier to add cut planes. There are three different setups for mouse button assignments in Tekla. You use the one that is the most natural for you to use. From spending hundreds and hundreds of hours with Navisworks Manage, it just doesn't seem as fluid as TeklaBIMsight. Manage is huge software, but if you are only going to use 5-10% of it I'd rather use Tekla. The only reason I don't use TeklaBIMsight is because it's too much trouble converting all the trades drawings that you get as .dwg to .ifc. 



Each discipline takes to their own software. Tekla is big with the structural crowd. Revit with the A&Es. Autosprink for the sprinkler fitters. The MEP trades go with AutoCAD MEP. There has been a big push to get the MEP contractors to go the Revit route. With all the talk, and the articles around it, I have not seen much change. Every coordination job everyone sticks with their favorites, and trade their drawings as .dwg. Sometimes I'll see the plumbers sub it to a sketcher that uses Revit. But the guy probably has a background with an A&E.


As far as the Viewer, you probably won't have a choice. You'll just have to get good at Freedom. I run with it set for orbit. When you zoom with the mouse wheel, make sure the pointer is set on an object. This way when you orbit, it will orbit around the object you zoomed on. Otherwise the model will orbit out of control. Orbit, Pan and zoom all with the mouse. I guess everyone is different. I see guys in the meetings using the walk buttons, I never use them.


Do a YouTube search on adding and managing cut planes. That will be a huge help on larger models, as well as "hiding" objects with a right mouse click.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

TGGT said:


> Do you use these things in the field while actively managing a crew? If I tried to use these programs and apps routinely I feel like I'd definitely be overwhelmed, but I'm worried if I don't I'm risking missing some important details that could be costly to address later that ultimately I'll be liable for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



PlanGrid in the field all day. Everything else gets done in the shop. The shop drawings are printed and also on PlanGrid. A good detailed set of shop drawing is all that's needed in the field. Ours shop drawings have plan view, with section and detail Callouts for detail, elevation and isometric views. all coordination should have already been done. You get disputes when jerkoffs don't follow their shop drawings. Mostly plumbers. Sometimes it is the idiot that did the shop drawings. Again mostly plumbers. Sometimes it's just a failed coordination process because nobody wants to put the time in. They do the least they can to satisfy the contract.



Navigating a model on an ipad is a major pain in the ass. The model is there though, if needed. For the model on an ipad it's better to use AutoDesk's A360 drive. The shop drawings also get saved there as a .dwfx file. Much better if you need to get dimensions off a plan view, but another viewer to learn.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Check this out. Navigating the program is my biggest issue right now. Somebody already fixed this with an xbox controller.






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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

TGGT said:


> Anybody using these effectively? My company gave me a 2 hour tutorial and then expects me to use it seamlessly to reference on the job. It's not intuitive at all. Whoever designed the navigation controls should be shot. I played pc games in the 90s with better controls.
> 
> My experience so far is that it would probably take weeks of continuous use to be efficient and there's still the issue of cross referencing conventional prints that the hands have in the field because we aren't likely to hand every JIW an ipad. In other words it doesn't feel like we're adopting it 100%, but rather for me is just one more thing I'm reminded I gotta check when building conflicts arise. I have to check bluebeam on the iPad, verify the field issued paper prints are current (new prints take time to receive), and then go to the PC station to check BIM.
> 
> ...





TGGT said:


> I don't want to be too valuable.
> 
> 15% over JIW wage is already not feeling worth the money ($34 per hour). For about $4.50 less I can never think about work when I get home.
> 
> ...





TGGT said:


> Do you use these things in the field while actively managing a crew? If I tried to use these programs and apps routinely I feel like I'd definitely be overwhelmed, but I'm worried if I don't I'm risking missing some important details that could be costly to address later that ultimately I'll be liable for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



I almost had to double check usernames to make sure that you're posts weren't mine. I'm in the same boat as you and feel your same frustrations in these phases of my projects.

I've become pretty decent at scrolling through the model and getting measurements but I can't believe how un-intuitive the whole interface is, and how cumbersome navigating can be compared to video games. I would also like to learn about possible alternative programs for viewing models, my last project I think I was using a program or app from Autodesk A360(I'm not sure my laptop is at work). It seems like either my laptop isn't powerful enough or the program I am using is the issue I'm having with slow and lagging navigation.

Another challenge I find is getting the information from the model to my guys in the field to install correctly. I've resorted to taking a 2D print outs of the model for specific HR racks and trying to put as much information on them as possible in bluebeam. I will dimension out the drawing from column lines or walls, and add elevations. I'll put notes and attach numbered pictures of areas with complicated bends and/or areas where there could be a critical conflict with other trades.

I haven't clicked on the link for navigating the model with an Xbox controller yet, but im going to now. Hopefully it's not too difficult or expensive.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

freeagnt54 said:


> I almost had to double check usernames to make sure that you're posts weren't mine. I'm in the same boat as you and feel your same frustrations in these phases of my projects.
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I do the same thing with print outs and notes. I hate rework but this level of micromanaging bogs me down. Can't just hand a journeyman prints and send him off.

I think the similar experiences are the fact these changes are becoming mainstream and used on smaller jobs and by smaller contractors. Either the technology needs to become more intuitive and streamlined or the companies need to respond to the demand on skills and man hours.

I wish bluebeam overlay was automatic, where you could simply add or remove systems on the fly. 

One set of prints one tab, click lighting to see lighting, click RCP to see ceiling details, click mechanical to see duct layout. No more navigating folders and subfolders and multiple copies of the same print. Clashing of devices crammed in the same tiny section of wall would be obvious without sorting through 3 or 4 different drawings, power, lighting, security, and mechanical controls.

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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

It sounds like the detailers/sketchers aren't doing such a good job getting the job on paper. You should be able to give the guys printed out shop drawings that make sense and you can build the job off of. Nobody in the field should be spending a lot of time taking measurements from the model.


Besides plan view shop drawings you should have detail and elevation views of the key and or congested areas of the drawing. Occasionally there will be measurements that you wish you had. But hopefully the drawing scale of the detail or elevation section is large enough that you can get them accurate with a scale ruler. Most plan view shop drawings are in 3/8" scale. At that scale there is almost no reason for the sketcher to add dimensions. A stick rule or tape measure in the field is practically accurate enough. A scale rule is faster. Detail/elevation views are 1/2" scale or larger.



AutoDesk used to have software called "Plan Review". When they switched to the cloud and A360 they discontinued it, because it's now built into A360. So when the sketcher prints the sheet set to PDF he should also print it to DWFx. Viewing the DWF in A360 gives you the ability to add dimensions that will "snap" to end points, mid points and all the traditional AutoCAD object snaps. doing the same thing with other software just isn't as accurate or easy. 



Bend angles, elevations, conduit size and system, strut type, strut length, rod length, anchor type and everything a guy in the field should need, should all be in the drawing. The sketcher should be able to create tags that automatically read the the objects properties and display it in the drawing. A guy in the field should easily be able to prefab what he needs just looking at the drawing. Sometimes it may take a little math. Like subtracting two elevations to get an offset height. It could also be prefabbed in the shop or trailer.


The last thing is schedules. One of the software's greatest features is schedules. With Revit and AutoCAD MEP you can schedule anything. You should have a bill of material schedule for all the parts and pieces. a cut list schedule for all the strut and rod. Home run wire/junction box schedules. You should know what's in every conduit. Depending on how much you detail the drawings, it could include MC and MC multi-wire home runs with their jbox schedules.


If your detailer is'nt getting you all this, they're missing the boat.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think that its possible to build PDFs with layers from AutoCAD 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-forum/plot-dwg-in-pdf-with-layers/td-p/2606426 

I think if the architect really wanted to go the extra mile, they'd issue multipage PDFs for prints, and a single multilayer PDF for electronic use. 

But I am pretty sure you can use Blubeam to merge the sheets back into a multilayer PDF, I'd be shocked it it worked without a hitch but who knows 

https://support.bluebeam.com/online...01--Tabs/Layers/Adding-Layers-to-a-PDF--M.htm


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

splatz said:


> I think that its possible to build PDFs with layers from AutoCAD
> 
> https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-forum/plot-dwg-in-pdf-with-layers/td-p/2606426
> 
> ...


I've only messed with the overlay option. If there is a seamless layer option it would be a huge time saver for me. Thanks for the lead.

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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

HertzHound said:


> It sounds like the detailers/sketchers aren't doing such a good job getting the job on paper. You should be able to give the guys printed out shop drawings that make sense and you can build the job off of. Nobody in the field should be spending a lot of time taking measurements from the model.
> 
> 
> Besides plan view shop drawings you should have detail and elevation views of the key and or congested areas of the drawing. Occasionally there will be measurements that you wish you had. But hopefully the drawing scale of the detail or elevation section is large enough that you can get them accurate with a scale ruler. Most plan view shop drawings are in 3/8" scale. At that scale there is almost no reason for the sketcher to add dimensions. A stick rule or tape measure in the field is practically accurate enough. A scale rule is faster. Detail/elevation views are 1/2" scale or larger.
> ...



The company that I'm currently with puts the detailing aspect on the foremans shoulders. Typically we are given the drawings before the job starts and we sit in the office and plan, detail, and build material and prefab lists. If the job requires Bim coordination, I'll give our bim modeler my conduit rack routing/details drawn in bluebeam that I put together off the mechanical, plumbing, sprinkler and structural drawings. He puts it in the model as close as possible with necessary modifications to resolve conflicts. This system seems to work pretty well to me personally, but I've known foremans that seem to have no idea how to do any of that and I dont think anyone does it for them either.

When I was a journeyman and apprentice at previous companies they didn't give us hardly anything that would hint that they preplanned or detailed anything.

Here's some examples from foreman/crew leads I've worked under.

- Run this pipe/MC from here to there, rinse and repeat with 15 guys until the ceiling is weaved like a wicker basket. 

- Build a 6ft wide two layer thick homerun rack down the center of this loading dock because I have no idea how many conduits will need to be on it and we will randomly run one pipe at time on it so it looks like a giant cluster****. Then when the job is nearly done we will find out there is an overhead crane that runs right through it.

- I would like you to run all my homerun conduits/racks with nothing more than the E sheets. Easy right? What you don't know is that I'm going to complain anytime you look at the drawings and lock them up so you can't see them.

While those jobs seemed to be running **** shows, I learned a lot of stuff fast, even if it was watching other people make mistakes or how not to run a job.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

TGGT said:


> Check this out. Navigating the program is my biggest issue right now. Somebody already fixed this with an xbox controller.
> 
> https://youtu.be/decwHT3PQFU
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Okay it looks like you need

CtrlWiz - $30 (1 time purchase)
Navisworks simulate - $880 per year
Xbox one controller - $40 (If you don't have one already)

It sucks CtrlWiz doesn't work with Naviswirks freedom. I don't think I'll be able to justify $900 a year to make it easier to navigate models unfortunately.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

freeagnt54 said:


> Okay it looks like you need
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> 
> ...


Yeah I just realized that too. Pretty weak their free version won't support normal controls.

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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm coming up to 64 now. I am so glad that BIM and me won't meet up . It will probably be all the rage pretty soon in Honolulu jobs, but never saw any yet. I can't even comprehend how come Apple got rid of the front button on the iPhone. It worked . The new one my wife got is a complete piece of doo doo.....


Not all technology is bad .......... AES on ships at sea is pretty neat stuff. Depth sounders are good too...... Whoop whoop!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I haven't used a 3D mouse in over 15 years, but one of my customers use this one in their machine shop, it's certified for Navisworks: 

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/supp...0106F5AF-A450-4AA6-82E9-D32F2D056AC7-htm.html 

Educational pricing isn't bad, I'd try the portable for under $100 

https://www.studica.com/3DConnexion


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I'm always looking at the Space mouse pro and enterprise. I just can't justify it. Some say you can never go back to a regular mouse, some say it's not all that. Probably if you had a 40 hour job working with Inventor, you couldn't do without.


I use a trackball mouse. I get a new one about once a year. The pan button is always the first to go first. If i'm in the shop on the computer all day, my arm would fall off with a regular mouse.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> I'm coming up to 64 now. I am so glad that BIM and me won't meet up . It will probably be all the rage pretty soon in Honolulu jobs, but never saw any yet. I can't even comprehend how come Apple got rid of the front button on the iPhone. It worked . The new one my wife got is a complete piece of doo doo.....
> 
> 
> Not all technology is bad .......... AES on ships at sea is pretty neat stuff. Depth sounders are good too...... Whoop whoop!





I'm 12 years behind you. I'm kinda hoping BIM is all I'll do in 12 years. I always planed on going till at least 65. I could see myself working at home into retirement. My divorce lawyer is 72.


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