# I need to add a 3pole 70a breaker to this panel.



## failelectric (May 27, 2010)

you wired it? looks like 1st year work


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Other than it being FPE, I'm not so sure what would make you run.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

You ever get that feeling that, if you continue on in a job, you're going to get screwed?

There's just something about this panel that makes me not want to work on it. Reasons:

There's no clear spot for a 3 pole. I would have to move something.
Wiring is cramped in there. And I know they'll blame me for a fire!
Who put those wire nuts in there?

I like to tell people that if you get that feeling, it's best not to do it. If you want the job, you can have it, but you know there'll be a fire, you'll get shocked, the equipment will not work, you'll break a bar in the Tbar, and you'll get a photo-radar ticket on the way home.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Are you an electrician?

What are you doing with a $9 Mastercraft multimeter? What do you mean you 'ran'? It's not even that bad of a panel...


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

failelectric said:


> you wired it? looks like 1st year work


hehehe no. I've never put in more than 10 breakers into a new panel. I think. But new panels are big and roomy.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

jza said:


> Are you an electrician?
> 
> What are you doing with a $9 Mastercraft multimeter? What do you mean you 'ran'? It's not even that bad of a panel...


I'm licensed. *koff koff*

And don't knock my multimeter! It's never been stolen. I leave my Ideal (woot) in my van.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

kaboler said:


> You ever get that feeling that, if you continue on in a job, you're going to get screwed?
> 
> There's just something about this panel that makes me not want to work on it. Reasons:
> 
> ...


Everything you worry about is a completely normal and every day part of electrical work. I think your green-ness is showing.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Everything you worry about is a completely normal and every day part of electrical work. I think your green-ness is showing.


Yep!

The panel cover is bulging. Would you guys do a cleanup of the panel or just jam the wires home and press that cover down?


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Other than it being FPE, I'm not so sure what would make you run.


If you ran from FPE in Canada you wouldn't have a job :laughing: They still sell that **** up here


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

kaboler said:


> Yep!
> 
> The panel cover is bulging. Would you guys do a cleanup of the panel or just jam the wires home and press that cover down?


I'm not sure why you feel compelled to exaggerate like that. That panel you have pictured absolutely would not "bulge" the cover. That gutter space isn't even close to the maximum fill requirements. It's not the prettiest, but far from anything that would ever make me feel compelled to "clean it up". Putting that sort of thought into your work is going to get your butt handed to you one day. There's no reason on this Earth (barring a load calc to the contrary) why you can't add your breaker and conductors to that panel. You're being a girl.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure why you feel compelled to exaggerate like that. That panel you have pictured absolutely would not "bulge" the cover. That gutter space isn't even close to the maximum fill requirements. It's not the prettiest, but far from anything that would ever make me feel compelled to "clean it up". Putting that sort of thought into your work is going to get your butt handed to you one day. There's no reason on this Earth (barring a load calc to the contrary) why you can't add your breaker and conductors to that panel. You're being a girl.


Its because he's a first year apprentice. Its probably the first time he's seen inside a panel :laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

The panel cover sinks in, it's not flush.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

kaboler said:


> The panel cover sinks in, it's not flush.


Fine. You're still being a girl.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Fine. You're still being a girl.


Agreed. It aint that bad. Stuff has to get moved around? Look for anything that's not a MWBC, check phasing, move stuff that can be moved.

And here's what I REALLY WANT TO KNOW...WHY IN GOD'S NAME IS A FIRST YEAR APPRENTICE DOING THIS!?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I count about (50) circuits in a (42) circuit rated panel.. got to love those twins.. :no:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

B4T said:


> I count about (50) circuits in a (42) circuit rated panel.. got to love those twins.. :no:


I'm not sure if that even applies in Canada. They just got electricity a few years back, so they're probably not up on circuit total limits.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure if that even applies in Canada. They just got electricity a few years back, so they're probably not up on circuit total limits.


They will start building a fence because of people like you.. :laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Piece o' cake dude. You need to get a 3-pole breaker in a panel with plenty of spaces. Assuming that a load calculation doesn't prohibit adding a new 70 amp breaker, you just have to rearrange some circuits. There's three main things I would worry about:

1) What voltage configuration is the service? If there's a high-leg (doesn't look like there is), identify it and make sure the breakers you rearrange won't be adversely affected by putting them on the high-leg phase. If it's a Wye setup then you're good to go. Just move 13 & 14 down a space and that'll open up your 3-pole spot.

2) Are there any multiwire branch circuits that you might screw up by rearranging stuff?

3) Why the f**k isn't your journeyman there to supervise and help you learn it? No one should be diving into 3-phase panels unless and until they've been properly taught how to deal with them.



MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure if that even applies in Canada. They just got electricity a few years back, so they're probably not up on circuit total limits.


It's because the damn Indians kept attacking their wagon train, delaying parts delivery for infrastructure upgrades.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Breaker #23 looks like it is burning up already.. :no:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> Agreed. It aint that bad. Stuff has to get moved around? Look for anything that's not a MWBC, check phasing, move stuff that can be moved.
> 
> And here's what I REALLY WANT TO KNOW...WHY IN GOD'S NAME IS A FIRST YEAR APPRENTICE DOING THIS!?


Because he is being a girl..:laughing:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Everything you worry about is a completely normal and every day part of electrical work. I think your green-ness is showing.


Pretty sure you meant "wuss-ness" instead of green-ness :whistling2:


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

What kind of building is that panel in?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

B4T said:


> Breaker #23 looks like it is burning up already.. :no:


The can is burnt down at the 16/17 position. He might not be able to move anything if he has bad buss hidden behind the blanks. 
That might be the reason for the wirenuts. No extra slack was left on the first trim-out.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I ran. Just something about this panel makes me want to NOT work in it.
> 
> Don't mock my multimeter either.


 Canadian Tire Special, but I guess it does the job.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

So is there no limit in terms of breakers in Canada??? This one obviously has more than 42 breakers already. I realize the NEC has done away with the 42 cir. limit also.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So is there no limit in terms of breakers in Canada??? This one obviously has more than 42 breakers already. I realize the NEC has done away with the 42 cir. limit also.


No such limit n Canada.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So is there no limit in terms of breakers in Canada??? This one obviously has more than 42 breakers already. I realize the NEC has done away with the 42 cir. limit also.


No limit whatsoever :thumbup: I've worked in 80cct panels older than me :laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Thats a bolt on FPE ? Sell a panel(s) change, take that 200 amp 3ph feed , troft it ,bug it and come up into two 3 ph . 42 ckt panels. I wouldn't even bother with that old junk anymore, locating breakers, paying top dollar for themand them wrestling with inadequate space.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Thats a bolt on FPE ? Sell a panel(s) change, take that 200 amp 3ph feed , troft it ,bug it and come up into two 3 ph . 42 ckt panels. I wouldn't even bother with that old junk anymore, locating breakers, paying top dollar for themand them wrestling with inadequate space.


No big deal I can still buy that  off the shelf from half the wholesalers around here :thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

randas said:


> No big deal I can still buy that  off the shelf from half the wholesalers around here :thumbup:


You won't find themon shelves around here, last time I bought a bolt on FPE it cost me around $50 for a SP 20


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> The can is burnt down at the 16/17 position. He might not be able to move anything if he has bad buss hidden behind the blanks.
> That might be the reason for the wirenuts. No extra slack was left on the first trim-out.


Damn you guys have a good eye!

I wasn't originally going to work on the panel. My boss sent me out to find out what we need to do. I told him X amount of Teck cable, a 3pole70a breaker (push in? I know we have one at the warehouse), a disconnect, a cord end. I was worried that he'd give me the job. I would have turned it down if he'd tried.

My biggest concern would have been running the 100 feet of Teck above a Tbar ceiling. I've heard of guys hanging Teck, slipping, and having a whole office come crashing down. Flourescents swinging wildly etc etc etc.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> You won't find themon shelves around here, last time I bought a bolt on FPE it cost me around $50 for a SP 20


Schneider still makes federal up here :blink: Not just the breakers but everything, panels and all. I should take a picture of the federal isle at my supply house for you guys :laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You have to learn to work around people and be able to make work what you are given. I see money to be made there. Who knows, maybe a whole new panel depending on how it is sold. I have to add attic ventilators to four buildings this week, all but one FPE bolt in, no way I am turning that down. Thankful for the work too. If you aren't experienced enough to tackle it, thats fine, but this is what many of us are faced with every day. Not everything is clean new construction with no obstacles.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I wasn't originally going to work on the panel. My boss sent me out to find out what we need to do. I told him X amount of Teck cable, a 3pole70a breaker (push in? I know we have one at the warehouse), a disconnect, a cord end. I was worried that he'd give me the job. I would have turned it down if he'd tried.


My boss called me into his office the other day. He was finishing up a bid to do some maintenance and replacement on the aviation light (and other stuff) at the top of Yaquina Bay Bridge here in town. The top of the bridge is about 250' above the water at high tide.

He asked me if I had a problem working off a 160' boom lift.

I told him yes I have a problem with it; it's scarier than s**t. But I'd be happy to do it as long as I can ensure that I'll be as safe as humanly possible.

Can't be intimidated by the work, but if you don't understand it you need to learn it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

randas said:


> Schneider still makes federal up here :blink: Not just the breakers but everything, panels and all. I should take a picture of the federal isle at my supply house for you guys :laughing:


You guys got some good stuff up there, my friend brought back a couple GFI finished plates designed to cover a GFI on a flat 1900 ring from his trip up there. I used it as an ultra wide goof plate . How much do panels go for , a QO 200 amp 40 ckt, I like the divider idea in them, it won't be long until the NEC runs out of ways to inflate the cost of materials out here and makes that code in the states.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

randas said:


> Schneider still makes federal up here :blink: Not just the breakers but everything, panels and all. I should take a picture of the federal isle at my supply house for you guys :laughing:


but not for much longer. They have stopped making the bolt on panel for commercial and there is a rumor that the residential will be gone soon.
All breakers will be available (so one of the supplier claims)
The decision is based on the fact that Schneider owns both FPE and SqD.All the panels and disconnects will be SqD The main breakers in the residential load centers have been SqD for years already


And that is not bolt on panel. FPE never made a narrow bolt on breaker.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I thought the panel looked more like 12" wide instead of the normal 14.5"


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

erics37 said:


> My boss called me into his office the other day. He was finishing up a bid to do some maintenance and replacement on the aviation light (and other stuff) at the top of Yaquina Bay Bridge here in town. The top of the bridge is about 250' above the water at high tide.
> 
> He asked me if I had a problem working off a 160' boom lift.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be thrilled to work in a 160' boom either, but I'd still do it.

I only refuse unsafe work. We had a guy refuse to climb a silo, said it was unsafe. Ladder was caged and you could tie off while climbing and at the top. He refused. He isn't around anymore.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> You guys got some good stuff up there, my friend brought back a couple GFI finished plates designed to cover a GFI on a flat 1900 ring from his trip up there. I used it as an ultra wide goof plate . How much do panels go for , a QO 200 amp 40 ckt, I like the divider idea in them, it won't be long until the NEC runs out of ways to inflate the cost of materials out here and makes that code in the states.


$149.63 my cost from the wholesaler, and a 32/64 cct is 149.50 
15 amp NA breaker is 10.52 and the narrow NCO is 7.86

I have to admit I was surprised when I saw pictures of American service panels with no divider. Definitely not safe


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have never seen the need to have a divider or an enclosure there. Enlighten me.


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## user18214 (Feb 10, 2011)

Hahaha, my companies safety policy won't even let me open a panel door until my 3rd year!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

That is one of the nicest FPE panels I have ever seen. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to put a breaker in there, but that's just me.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd have to check to see whether there were usuable spots that weren't burnt under those blanks. Shift a few circuits add some thin breakers and good to go I would think.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I have never seen the need to have a divider or an enclosure there. Enlighten me.


Because the service entrance wires are unfused, they are not supposed to be accessible on the inside of a building. 
So basically what it means that our conduit or TECK has to get into the main breaker in as short as possible (max 3 ft)
Now to protect the electrician or whoever, the unfused conductors and main breaker are located in a separate section of the panel. Usually the internal cover has a lip which separates that section from the branch circuit section. Or in the case of Siemens, the cover is split in 2 and the top section has the lip built into it
Turning off the main breaker effectively makes the panel dead and therefore safe to work on, because it is also a code rule (let alone a safety rule) that one is not to work on energized equipment
I turn off the main, and then the apprentices can tie in the breakers .
This is only on service entrance panels


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

I've never felt the need for the divider. I toss them whenever I can


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

randas said:


> I've never felt the need for the divider. I toss them whenever I can


 You're probably talking about that piece of crap in the CH load centers.Swear that half of them are broken off in shipping.

However by not using them, you are changing the equipment's CSA. Never been busted with that piece of plastic missing, but i have been queried about the main breaker section cover when its not sitting there for the inspection


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

And the big question is did Kaboler nut up or shut up?


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Looks like my new panels, whats the problem? :laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> And the big question is did Kaboler nut up or shut up?


I tell you I didn't do it! Hahaha. I sense trouble!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

kaboler said:


> I tell you I didn't do it! Hahaha. I sense trouble!


A lot of guys with mistuned spidy-senses in the unemployment line, I bet.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Yep!
> 
> The panel cover is bulging. Would you guys do a cleanup of the panel or just jam the wires home and press that cover down?


i had to add a 100 amp 3 pole breaker to a panel that was way more full than that. want to know what i did to fix it? i added a sub panel and moved a lot of wires out of the main to the sub. taken all day too do but i did it. 

that panel isnt even that bad. have your journeyman do it. a first year shouldnt be working in a live panel anyway especially a full one that your scared of


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## Smoke (Feb 25, 2011)

here is whet you do if the panel is full. set a sub panel. i saw many rip you but they are uninformed. there is a load rating on the buss, fequently opposing fingers are disabled to not cause a fire, you cant load large breakers opposing so choose thoose who dont.

its funny how those who tell you to add breakers dont know the first thing about buss load

Smoke





kaboler said:


> I ran. Just something about this panel makes me want to NOT work in it.
> 
> Don't mock my multimeter either.


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