# Troubleshooting help



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Ok, I have this side job and it's an old house with all metal boxes. I'm getting around 30 volts from de energized hot to the box and 14 volts from neutral to box. This is the only circuit that I'm getting voltage on all metal parts, I was thinking maybe a loose neutral that possibly some1 grounded to a box down stream. Please help.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Surge03 said:


> Ok, I have this side job and it's an old house with all metal boxes. I'm getting around 30 volts from de energized hot to the box and 14 volts from neutral to box. This is the only circuit that I'm getting voltage on all metal parts, I was thinking maybe a loose neutral that possibly some1 grounded to a box down stream. Please help.



What kind of meter are you using.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Is there a ground run in the circuits?
If yes, check if there is continuity between neutral and ground.


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> What kind of meter are you using.


 fluke 87 and my wand tracer


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Surge03 said:


> fluke 87 and my wand tracer


Does the 87 have a low z function? If not, likely you are reading ''ghost'' voltage.


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Does the 87 have a low z function? If not, likely you are reading ''ghost'' voltage.


 is that normal? Induction from other circuits?


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Surge03 said:


> is that normal? Induction from other circuits?


 ya, I'm ******ed I forgot I had the low impedance function and haven't tried that.


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Does the 87 have a low z function? If not, likely you are reading ''ghost'' voltage.


 I did shut off all single pole circuits and still had voltage, tried isolating everything seeing if it would go away.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Surge03 said:


> Ok, I have this side job and it's an old house with all metal boxes. I'm getting around 30 volts from de energized hot to the box and 14 volts from neutral to box. This is the only circuit that I'm getting voltage on all metal parts, I was thinking maybe a loose neutral that possibly some1 grounded to a box down stream. Please help.


The question is that what type of cable or conduit is in that place while you doing trobleshooting??


----------



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Surge03 said:


> I did shut off all single pole circuits and still had voltage, tried isolating everything seeing if it would go away.


So what is the result of this voltage you are reading?

What I mean is are people getting shocked/buzzed? Are lights dimming? Are you losing appliances or equipment?

This is most likely ghost voltage.

What does your wiggy tell you?


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> The question is that what type of cable or conduit is in that place while you doing trobleshooting??


 old cloth cable don't know what type, just hot and neutral no bare ground.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Bootleg grounded receptical?


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> Bootleg grounded receptical?


 how come at the breaker itself I get 0 voltage with breaker off to ground but down stream on that circuit I get 30 volts?


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Barjack said:


> So what is the result of this voltage you are reading? What I mean is are people getting shocked/buzzed? Are lights dimming? Are you losing appliances or equipment? This is most likely ghost voltage. What does your wiggy tell you?


 originally I was just replacing old recepts to new1s than I came across this. If the box is not grounded and I isolate the recept from the box how is still energized even if it was ghost voltage? I don't have a wiggy just a fluke 87 and my wand.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Surge03 said:


> how come at the breaker itself I get 0 voltage with breaker off to ground but down stream on that circuit I get 30 volts?


Because there is current flowing in the neutral wire !

I don't think your Fluke 87 has low impedance mode (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that) ... you can get on of these, however... Or just get a knopp tester !

Since it's an old house ... you'll find that in the old days they picked up any handy neutral to complete a given circuit (from knob and tube days)


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

emtnut said:


> Because there is current flowing in the neutral wire ! I don't think your Fluke 87 has low impedance mode (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that) ... you can get on of these, however... Or just get a knopp tester ! Since it's an old house ... you'll find that in the old days they picked up any handy neutral to complete a given circuit (from knob and tube days)


 The box is not grounded, I can understand ur point if it was grounded like an equipment ground. I have isolated the recept from the box and still get voltage.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Surge03 said:


> The box is not grounded, I can understand ur point if it was grounded like an equipment ground. I have isolated the recept from the box and still get voltage.


If the box is not bonded in any way,totally isolated ... then It would be the equivalent to putting one probe on the hot, and just holding the other probe in air... and in that case, most likely ghost voltage.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Surge03 said:


> how come at the breaker itself I get 0 voltage with breaker off to ground but down stream on that circuit I get 30 volts?


You answered that in your original post

If a fault is present on a bootleg ground, it can pass back thru the neutral.
If your wire is as old as you say, it can be leaking from said nuetral to the ungrounded conductor inside a wall. 

Remember, you don't know who or what worked on that circuit years ago.


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> You answered that in your original post If a fault is present on a bootleg ground, it can pass back thru the neutral. If your wire is as old as you say, it can be leaking from said nuetral to the ungrounded conductor inside a wall. Remember, you don't know who or what worked on that circuit years ago.


 ok, is it something I need to worry about or leave it alone. Basically is it safe


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Are any ghosts safe? Was Casper really a '' friendly'' ghost? 


Really seriously, you got a problem all right, it is a meter problem however. Use a wiggy and it works as good as wearing a garlic neckless and sprinkling holy water around the place.


----------



## Surge03 (Sep 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Are any ghosts safe? Was Casper really a '' friendly'' ghost? Really seriously, you got a problem all right, it is a meter problem however. Use a wiggy and it works as good as wearing a garlic neckless and sprinkling holy water around the place.


 lol yes I am afraid of ghost, Casper not so much lol


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Are any ghosts safe? Was Casper really a '' friendly'' ghost?
> 
> 
> Really seriously, you got a problem all right, it is a meter problem however. Use a wiggy and it works as good as wearing a garlic neckless and sprinkling holy water around the place.


Garlic and holy water is for vampires. 

Ghosts don't worry about that stuff. They are already dead.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Surge03 said:


> ok, is it something I need to worry about or leave it alone. Basically is it safe


Induced voltage = ghost and carries no current. 
Leaked voltage = real and can carry current.

You need to know what you have.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> Induced voltage = ghost and carries no current.
> Leaked voltage = real and can carry current.
> 
> You need to know what you have.


This is true, but he can easily find out using an amprobe. I have several, and at least two of them are analogs.


----------



## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

Surge03 said:


> I don't have a wiggy


Why not?


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Surge03 said:


> I don't have a wiggy


You should have a wiggy


----------



## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Are any ghosts safe? Was Casper really a '' friendly'' ghost? Really seriously, you got a problem all right, it is a meter problem however. Use a wiggy and it works as good as wearing a garlic neckless and sprinkling holy water around the place.


Lol.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I just got my Knopp in the mail! Now.....if I ever had a time where I wanted it...


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Garlic might attract Sicilian ghosts and we know how deadly they can be...just saying.

As for a wiggy type solenoid tester, every sparky should have one as they are famous for not showing ghost voltage, they are also inexpensive and battery free.


----------



## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> they are also inexpensive and battery free.


If Bernie Sanders were president both college and batteries would be free.:laughing:


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Mine was $50.... That's a lot! Lol


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Missouri Bound said:


> If Bernie Sanders were president both college and batteries would be free.:laughing:


And eventually there would be no power grid to test.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Mine was $50.... That's a lot! Lol


Not compared to a Fluke DMM, I think anything under $100 is reasonable in a device that could save you from problems.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not compared to a Fluke DMM, I think anything under $100 is reasonable in a device that could save you from problems.


I agree. I was just being silly. Anything at or under 100 is a decent price if it's a useful or needed item.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I agree. I was just being silly. Anything at or under 100 is a decent price if it's a useful or needed item.


The sarcasm was clear. Just seems $100 is like a $20 lately.


----------



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The sarcasm was clear. Just seems $100 is like a $20 lately.


I JUST said that the other night. I have come to a point in my young adult life that a 20 to me now is like a 1 was to me as a small boy. A 100 now is what a 20 was as a child as well and I don't like that. If I want to go get fast food or gas or a cheap doo dad, 20 doesn't cut it. I remember when 5 or 10 got me a lot and 20 was rich. bla bla bla bottom line is money gets us less and we have to do more to earn it!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I JUST said that the other night. I have come to a point in my young adult life that a 20 to me now is like a 1 was to me as a small boy. A 100 now is what a 20 was as a child as well and I don't like that. If I want to go get fast food or gas or a cheap doo dad, 20 doesn't cut it. I remember when 5 or 10 got me a lot and 20 was rich. bla bla bla bottom line is money gets us less and we have to do more to earn it!



Yeah prices are way out of control. I remember asking for $2 for school trips, a friend said the other night he was going to the ATM his kids needed $50 a piece for lunch and stuff on a school zoo trip the next day. That is way out of control.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Surge03 said:


> originally I was just replacing old recepts to new1s than I came across this. If the box is not grounded and I isolate the recept from the box how is still energized even if it was ghost voltage? I don't have a wiggy just a fluke 87 and my wand.


And your hand...........:whistling2:


----------

