# Why third party inspection agencies are a poor idea



## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

I work in areas with municipal inspections and some areas with third party inspections. I'm amazed at how these things pass


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

cant seem to make the picture bigger so whats the problem?


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

papaotis said:


> cant seem to make the picture bigger so whats the problem?


Well the issue is being that the electrical contractor hires the Inspectors and pays the bill very often code violations will be allowed because the inspector doesn't want to lose his clients.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

o.k. but i dont see that in the pics


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

papaotis said:


> o.k. but i dont see that in the pics


Yeah, I can't see anything either. I can't make out one measurement on the tape or anything with the panel cover off..... You need closer pics for my aging eyes I guess.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I hate those stupid service loop magnets, and for dang sake buy a label maker* or* fine point sharpie, leave an inch of jacket inside past the clamp, and label it!


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Not QO, *FAIL!*


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

My only quip: those neutrals look like they're jammed -- with multiple conductors per set-screw.

The labor burn on labelling -- 'tis a fright.

The second photo shows a panel with breakers sitting above 80" AFF.

Oh, My.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Top pic:

Bundled neutrals under screws

Crazy labeling

Is there a connector on the ground entry?

The ground wire is black

Don't see any fasteners holding the panel in place

Second pic:

Well over 6'7" to highest breaker


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Top pic:
> 
> Bundled neutrals under screws
> 
> ...


It looks like there is a black button connector. But there is no need for one. Most panels have those really little KO's that we bring the GEC thru.

Second, black is fine for a GEC. It doesn't have the green/bare requirements of an EGC.

You can see the 2 black screwheads in the back of the panel at the bottom holding it, I assume the 2 at the top are covered up.

The big problem I see with the panel is that A) The GEC's are both landed on the ground bar and B) the neutral/ground bond is left opened. They should be bonded since this appears to be the main panel (3 wire feeder and GECs present).


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It looks like there is a black button connector. But there is no need for one. Most panels have those really little KO's that we bring the GEC thru.
> 
> Second, black is fine for a GEC. It doesn't have the green/bare requirements of an EGC.
> 
> ...


Better eyes than me.

Wasn't aware the ground could be black.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> Well the issue is being that the electrical contractor hires the Inspectors and pays the bill very often code violations will be allowed because the inspector doesn't want to lose his clients.


So what are your plans for correcting this alleged incompetent behavior? 

Are you going to lodge a complaint against the alleged offending electrical inspector and/or the company he works for? 

Are you going to report him and the company he works for to the consumer affairs division of the state this allegedly happened in?

Keep us in the loop, we want to know how this turns out. :thumbsup:


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

The 2nd photo they might have made 6' if the main was on the top. Even moving 2 breakers from the right to the left would get it 2" closer. Possibly a few min breakers and the 240.24 is solved. Sometimes contractors called on things like this would cause a hack fix like removing breakers and combining 6 circuits. Don't know if it was a remodel and they were trying to make something work of a new construction goof.

The 1st photo I can't see enough detail to notice much besides the loops in the service conductors. Not a violation. Understandable if it was an underground cable, but not this. Can't see the bonding jumper. Oh see the 2 conductors under a screw.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

3rd party inspection is a great idea. Anything that takes the inefficient and overbearing government out of the equation is a winner in my book.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

flyboy said:


> So what are your plans for correcting this alleged incompetent behavior?
> 
> Are you going to lodge a complaint against the alleged offending electrical inspector and/or the company he works for?
> 
> ...


Don't hold your breath on that one.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Hack work is correct all egc are landed on the ground bar and there is no jumper to the neutral bus.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It looks like there is a black button connector. But there is no need for one. Most panels have those really little KO's that we bring the GEC thru.
> 
> Second, black is fine for a GEC. It doesn't have the green/bare requirements of an EGC.
> 
> ...


 I'm thinking they just set a disconnect outside for the bond.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Julius793 said:


> Hack work is correct all egc are landed on the ground bar and there is no jumper to the neutral bus.


I couldn't figure that one out either way.

So, I didn't bring it up.

&&&

I've seen much worse, but I'd have a cow if my boys cranked out such 'work.'

The labor burn from the labelling would make me flip out.

I have my own Code.

It says: " Don't cost me money doing stupid .... "


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparkiez said:


> I'm thinking they just set a disconnect outside for the bond.


There is a 3 wire feeder and the GEC's come into this panel. 

If there was an outside disco the GEC's would go into that and you would need an EGC coming into the panel with the feeder.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> There is a 3 wire feeder and the GEC's come into this panel.
> 
> If there was an outside disco the GEC's would go into that and you would need an EGC coming into the panel with the feeder.


I was thinking the same thing myself, but looking at the rest of the work, who knows?

That being said, the main breaker does support your assertion. It could also be that they fed it with a 3-wire and are using a separate ground (like if they are using a ufer). Not really enough to tell, but some details were definitely missed here.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet anything that panel is the first means of disconnect. It's the main panel.

You can see the little copper duhicky bonding stud thingy that wasn't terminated on the ground bar to bond it. 

Other then that and maybe the height issue I don't see any big deal. 

The most egregious thing is the bonding jumper.

Any self respecting inspector that had his screw driver out to take off the panel cover would take two seconds to bond it for you. 

At least my inspectors would.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

flyboy said:


> I'd be willing to bet anything that panel is the first means of disconnect. It's the main panel.
> 
> *You can see the little copper duhicky bonding stud thingy that wasn't terminated on the ground bar to bond it. *
> 
> ...


I looked clean past that until you mentioned it. :notworthy:

A clean goof, then.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> I looked clean past that until you mentioned it. :notworthy:
> 
> A clean goof, then.


You should have read my post, darn you.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

flyboy said:


> I'd be willing to bet anything that panel is the first means of disconnect. It's the main panel.
> 
> You can see the little copper duhicky bonding stud thingy that wasn't terminated on the ground bar to bond it.
> 
> ...


 Well that's part of what I'm complaining about, the inspectors around here for the most part don't even look at the work they just slap a sticker on and send a bill.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Julius793 said:


> Well that's part of what I'm complaining about, the inspectors around here for the most part don't even look at the work they just slap a sticker on and send a bill.



My kind of inspection. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Julius793 said:


> Well that's part of what I'm complaining about, the inspectors around here for the most part don't even look at the work they just slap a sticker on and send a bill.


Perfect.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Julius793 said:


> Well that's part of what I'm complaining about, the inspectors around here for the most part don't even look at the work they just slap a sticker on and send a bill.


Do you make money from these faulty installs or not?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

I wonder if they goofed and ran SEU instead of SER, realized it after the fact, and ran a separate EGC. 

Those grounds and neutrals are intentionally separated.

If that is a GEC connected to that ground bar, where is it connected to the neutral?
(I see the unconnected jumper, but I think it is supposed to be off)

The new SEU is throwing me for a loop. I can't see how it is anything other than a mistake.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Barjack said:


> I wonder if they goofed and ran SEU instead of SER, realized it after the fact, and ran a separate EGC.
> 
> Those grounds and neutrals are intentionally separated.
> 
> ...


It's someone who doesn't know what they are doing.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> There is a 3 wire feeder and the GEC's come into this panel.
> 
> If there was an outside disco the GEC's would go into that and you would need an EGC coming into the panel with the feeder.


If there is an outside disco , then this would be a sub feed (regardless of main). If so , then we wouldn't be allowed to use SEU cable past the point of the main
because NEU is bare not sheathed....but I digress , I think this is the main and 
that boding jumper needs to be landed pronto.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> If there is an outside disco , then this would be a sub feed (regardless of main). If so , then we wouldn't be allowed to use SEU cable past the point of the main


 I believe you are saying the same thing that I did.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I believe you are saying the same thing that I did.


Well , I noticed the unsheathed NEU and thought that has to be the main.

On another note , someone thought it may be a sub panel cause the grounds were intentionally separated from NEU's , but I know many guys are starting
to seperate them regardless and then bonding both together in anticipation
of coming back @ a later date to install a service rated ATS w/ back up Gen.

This way , most of the work is done already (in order to change existing main into a sub panel.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It is the main, there is no outside disconnect. Someone just forgot to make the n-g bond or didn't know what they were doing.


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