# electrical panel ground vs. neutral



## Bob Badger

Electricity has no desire to go into the earth, the current flow is trying to go back to the source which in most all cases is a utility company transformer.

Electricity will try to use the earth as a conductor to get back to the source as the power company also connects their neutral to the earth, but if everything is connected properly the majority of the current flow is through the wire conductor and not the dirt.


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## RIVETER

bobster said:


> This is probably going to make some you roll over, but I'm just starting out as a home inspector and am having difficulty understanding the ground/neutral connections. I see the neutral going to a neutral bar and the ground going to a ground bar, but the neutral and ground appear to be connected. If the ground also goes to an outside ground rod and the neutral goes back to the electrical company--THEN why doesn't the load simply go into the ground vs. going through the neutral? I've asked 5 people in construction and they have no clue either, just tell me that's the way it works. Does electrical potential has something to do with it?
> 
> I also saw a situation where it appeared the neutral and ground were grounded through a water pipe and no neutral was connected to outside power?
> 
> If this is not the right forum for this then show me the way out...:blink:
> 
> Thanks, I just don't know where to go to get the right info.


From what we are taught, electrical current will take the "least path of resistance". A properly secured Neutral should take the current back to the source transformer at the pole. If a neutral does come loose then it is every man ...or amp, to himself. The current will still strive to get back to the source any way it can. That is where we get the "stray" currents that cause the "stray" voltages we talk about. Now the GROUNDING...The ground rod is attached to the neutral buss via the GEC. It has nothing to do with the operation of the system except in the cases of aberrent voltages on the system. These Aberrents can be caused by lightning...higher voltage lines being knocked onto the lower voltage lines, or a simple primary to secondary short circuit at the service transformer.


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## TheRick

bobster said:


> This is probably going to make some you roll over, but I'm just starting out as a home inspector and am having difficulty understanding the ground/neutral connections. I see the neutral going to a neutral bar and the ground going to a ground bar, but the neutral and ground appear to be connected. If the ground also goes to an outside ground rod and the neutral goes back to the electrical company--THEN why doesn't the load simply go into the ground vs. going through the neutral? I've asked 5 people in construction and they have no clue either, just tell me that's the way it works. Does electrical potential has something to do with it?
> 
> I also saw a situation where it appeared the neutral and ground were grounded through a water pipe and no neutral was connected to outside power?
> 
> If this is not the right forum for this then show me the way out...:blink:
> 
> Thanks, I just don't know where to go to get the right info.


If you do not understand the difference between the neutral and ground, you have no business inspecting electrical systems! PLEASE consult a qualified electrician to perform these inspections!


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## Speedy Petey

TheRick said:


> If you do not understand the difference between the neutral and ground, you have no business inspecting electrical systems! PLEASE consult a qualified electrician to perform these inspections!


I wholly agree. 

We get some wacky demands from HI's, and it is pretty disheartening when it is obvious they have no clue what they are talking about.


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## bobster

Well, I would like to thank the people who truly tried to help me.:thumbsup: I understand the neutral and ground, but the connection to both in a box has more than me confused. Just to make sure I'm not a complete uneducated idiot, I called several electrical contractors and they both gave me the same answer: That is how the code works and we wire according to code. If it's wrong the city inspector will tell us and we change it. But I asked, why the electricity doesn't go to the ground vs. the neutral--they just repeated the above and said it's probably because the neutral carries the load back because it's a bigger wire...:001_huh:--I loved that answer--that's going in my inspection report from now on.:bangin:


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## 480sparky

The biggest difference between the ground*ed* conductor ("neutral") and the ground*ing* conductor ("ground") is the former carries current under normal circumstances. The latter only should during a fault.

Once the current reaches the panel, whether through the grounded or grounding, it's easiest path back to the source (utility transformer) is the same..... the service neutral.


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## TheRick

bobster said:


> Well, I would like to thank the people who truly tried to help me.:thumbsup: I understand the neutral and ground, but the connection to both in a box has more than me confused. Just to make sure I'm not a complete uneducated idiot, I called several electrical contractors and they both gave me the same answer: That is how the code works and we wire according to code. If it's wrong the city inspector will tell us and we change it. But I asked, why the electricity doesn't go to the ground vs. the neutral--they just repeated the above and said it's probably because the neutral carries the load back because it's a bigger wire...:001_huh:--I loved that answer--that's going in my inspection report from now on.:bangin:


Electricity does NOT "go to ground" Contrary to popular belief there is no magical electron sucker in the earth. Current flows back to the source not to the ground rod!


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## jwjrw

Speedy Petey said:


> I wholly agree.
> 
> We get some wacky demands from HI's, and it is pretty disheartening when it is obvious they have no clue what they are talking about.


 
I've met some really competent home inspectors. BUT the majority of the ones I have met have no clue. I have a few real estate agents that call me all the time to correct the things on their hi list. I ain't complaining. They list it I correct it or let them know it is to code and get paid.:yes:


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## Bob Badger

Just curious.

How does it help HIs become better if when they ask the right people for advice they get slammed?

Personally I think many ECs have a chip on their shoulder about HIs and I think that a confident EC should not be afraid of either competent or incompetent inspectors of any type.


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## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> How does it help HIs become better if when they ask the right people for advice they get slammed?


Duh, we are obviously better than everyone else...sheesh, Bob, get a clue.


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## Jlarson

Bob Badger said:


> Just curious.
> How does it help HIs become better if when they ask the right people for advice they get slammed?


It doesn't help them, they probably just end up hating electricians more and more each time one of us puts them down.



> Personally I think many ECs have a chip on their shoulder about HIs and I think that a confident EC should not be afraid of either competent or incompetent inspectors of any type.


I'm not afraid of inspectors, I have no problem with competent inspectors. I do have a problem with the bad ones and don't hesitate to tell them that.


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## Bob Badger

BuzzKill said:


> Duh, we are obviously better than everyone else...sheesh, Bob, get a clue.



:thumbup::thumbup:

Well I may not agree with what you said I have a great deal of respect for honest answers. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

Jlarson said:


> I do have a problem with the bad ones and don't hesitate to tell them that.


In this case we have a guy trying to learn, not enforce something he does not know about.

To me it makes no sense at all to belittle a person for trying to better themselves.


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## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> In this case we have a guy trying to learn, not enforce something he does not know about.
> 
> To me it makes no sense at all to belittle a person for trying to better themselves.


I agree, but until they train these guys a little bit better in electrical theory and operations, it's HO's that are going to get the shaft with poorly done and misinformed reports on the house's electrical status. There is more to it than just taking photos of a bad roof or cracked pavement and plumbing leaks.


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## TheRick

Bob Badger said:


> In this case we have a guy trying to learn, not enforce something he does not know about.
> 
> To me it makes no sense at all to belittle a person for trying to better themselves.


Normally I would agree with you Bob, learning is always good, but learning as you go when you are performing electrical inspections is not acceptable in my book. That is how people get hurt and die  I have seen the results first hand, and it never ends good. 

I do not conduct structural or plumbing inspections because I am not an expert in either of those fields. Inspecting should be left to subject matter experts that can identify whether an installation is correct, and why or why not it is.


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> .......but learning as you go when you are performing electrical inspections is not acceptable in my book. ..........



So let us in on what _you_ did for the first four or five years of your electrical career.


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## Jlarson

Bob Badger said:


> In this case we have a guy trying to learn, not enforce something he does not know about.
> 
> To me it makes no sense at all to belittle a person for trying to better themselves.


I don't rip into HI's, I couldn't, I don't deal with them in my line of work and I wouldn't expect one to know every single code and rule for every part of a house.


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## Bob Badger

BuzzKill said:


> it's HO's that are going to get the shaft with poorly done and misinformed reports on the house's electrical status. There is more to it than just taking photos of a bad roof or cracked pavement and plumbing leaks.


There is truth in that.

But there is also truth in the fact that HIs do in fact many real violations that would otherwise go unnoticed and unrepaired.

Just look at the pictures of the stuff they find ... well heck you guys know what is out there, some of it is pretty bad and if HIs can spot more of it that is good for both the home buyers and us. 

BTW, here in MA HIs have some pretty strict training and licensing requirements. You cannot just decide 'today I am a home inspector'.


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> So let us in on what _you_ did for the first four or five years of your electrical career.


I didn't start out as an inspector........spent 7 years in a paper plate factory doing industrial maintenance, 5 years in a cement plant doing the same, and a mix of resi and light commercial work mixed in moonlighting for other contractors the whole time. Only for the last 2 years have I worked as an inspector.


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## Speedy Petey

480sparky said:


> So let us in on what _you_ did for the first four or five years of your electrical career.


I think it is a safe bet that he did not spend his time pointing out the deficiencies of other's installations.


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## Speedy Petey

bobster said:


> Just to make sure I'm not a complete uneducated idiot, I called several electrical contractors and they both gave me the same answer: That is how the code works and we wire according to code. If it's wrong the city inspector will tell us and we change it. But I asked, why the electricity doesn't go to the ground vs. the neutral--they just repeated the above and said it's probably because the neutral carries the load back because it's a bigger wire.


Well now this is just disgusting.


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## BuzzKill

Speedy Petey said:


> Well now this is just disgusting.


I have a hard time buying that...trunk slammer "contactors" yes, but state licensed guys?


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## bobster

TheRick said:


> Electricity does NOT "go to ground" Contrary to popular belief there is no magical electron sucker in the earth. Current flows back to the source not to the ground rod!


Ok first, let me explain how electricity works. DC current flows through wires, electron to electron until it gets to it's load and back. AC vibrates and basically sends out electrons on one cycle and gets electrons back in in the next. AC was invented to avoid the "flow" requirement of DC. That said, since electrical grids are connected to the earth (ground), AC will go through a ground pole--through earth-- back to it's source and does it very quickly. That is why on farms cows are known to have knee problems due to electrical current flowing through fields in poorly wired homes. I get that. Of course if electricity didn't "flow" to the ground then people would not be electricuted by downed wires or lightning or you wouldn't need a GFCI on your swimming pool circuit.

I was simply trying to understand why neutral and ground are connected in the panel box (okay now tell me why?), and why the flow through the neutral vs. the ground doesn't cause an electrical potential threat in the ground?

I totally agree with you that HI's can be clueless, however they are intended to be intelligent observers and not city code inspectors. Any questionable observation should be followed up by a licensed professional in that domain whether electrical, construction, mold, radon, termites, foundation damage, etc. Too many realtors rely on the inspector to offer up that knowledge--yikes

Let's all get along here.


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## Jlarson

bobster said:


> *they just repeated the above and said it's probably because the neutral carries the load back because it's a bigger wire*


The words what the hell and wow come to mind. There are actually people that believe this out there?


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## jwjrw

Jlarson said:


> The words what the hell and wow come to mind. There are actually people that believe this out there?


 
A lot of electricians know what it takes to make things work but not why it works. I'm trying to learn the why now myself.


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## Jlarson

jwjrw said:


> A lot of electricians know what it takes to make things work but not why it works. I'm trying to learn the why now myself.


I guess your right, I personally tried to learn both at the same time, I just cant hook something up I want to know why.


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> I didn't start out as an inspector........spent 7 years in a paper plate factory doing industrial maintenance, 5 years in a cement plant doing the same, and a mix of resi and light commercial work mixed in moonlighting for other contractors the whole time. Only for the last 2 years have I worked as an inspector.


So you did installations as opposed to sitting in class four or five years learning theory?


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## Jlarson

480sparky said:


> So you did installations as opposed to sitting in class four or five years learning theory?


Is there a problem with not sitting in 4 years of classes?


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## bobster

Okay, here is the answer:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/separation-neutral-ground-bar-12228/


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## TheRick

bobster said:


> I was simply trying to understand why neutral and ground are connected in the panel box (okay now tell me why?), and why the flow through the neutral vs. the ground doesn't cause an electrical potential threat in the ground?


It is to create a fault current path back to the SOURCE not the GROUND. 

Current will flow on the neutral back to the source in a properly functioning system. 

A "circuit" is current flow through a load between the ungrounded and grounded condutors. 

A "short circuit" is when the load is removed and the circuit goes straight between the ungrounded and grounded conductors.

By connecting the equipment grounding conductors and the grounded conductor at the service, a "short circuit" is created when a ground fault occurs, causing the overcurrent protection to operate opening the circuit.


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## 480sparky

Jlarson said:


> Is there a problem with doing it this way?



I don't think there's many electricians that can honestly state they spent the first 4 or 5 years of their careers immersed in nothing but classroom training. If they did, they'd be the worst gawdamn electricians out there.

So if someone here wants to harp on someone who is learning by "on the job training", I'd like to remind them of the first years of their own careers. I'll bet it was spent in the field bendin' pipe, drillin' holes, pullin' wires, makin' up splices.......


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> So you did installations as opposed to sitting in class four or five years learning theory?


No sorry.....left out the Associate's Degree I earned while working nights full time and attending classes full time during the day, with a 3.9 GPA....sorry I was tired!


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## Jlarson

480sparky said:


> I don't think there's many electricians that can honestly state they spent the first 4 or 5 years of their careers immersed in nothing but classroom training. If they did, they'd be the worst gawdamn electricians out there.
> 
> So if someone here wants to harp on someone who is learning by "on the job training", I'd like to remind them of the first years of their own careers. I'll bet it was spent in the field bendin' pipe, drillin' holes, pullin' wires, makin' up splices.......


Yeah sounds like how I started. No book learning involved. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> No sorry.....left out the Associate's Degree I earned while working nights full time and attending classes full time during the day, with a 3.9 GPA....sorry I was tired!


Wow. You needed that just to learn how to bend pipe and pull wire?


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> Wow. You needed that just to learn how to bend pipe and pull wire?


Learned that and a whole lot more! :thumbsup:


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## sparky.jp

May I kindly suggest to the OP here that if you are going to be in the business of home inspection, you should continue to learn all that you can about all relevant areas (plumbing, electrical, structural, etc). 

An EXCELLENT resource which would greatly benefit your electrical knowledge is Mike Holt's Illustrated Guide to Understanding The National Electric Code (website: http://www.mikeholt.com/).

His guides (several volumes) have multiple illustrations and explanations which completely answer your original question here and explain the WHY behind the code requirements, in an easy-to-understand manner. I keep one handy at my desk.

If you are going to be in the business, spending a few hundred dollars per year for reference books such as these should be a given, and can be considered a business expense for tax purposes.


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> Learned that and a whole lot more! :thumbsup:



But you didn't answer my question.


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> But you didn't answer my question.


Honestly bending conduit and pulling wire is not why I got into the field. I went to school to learn the theory behind the work, and the more techincal aspects of the field. I have not spent a lot of time bending conduit and pulling wire, and have no desire to do so in the future.


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> Honestly bending conduit and pulling wire is not why I got into the field. I went to school to learn the theory behind the work, and the more techincal aspects of the field. I have not spent a lot of time bending conduit and pulling wire, and have no desire to do so in the future.



Yet you expect a HI to take the same path as you, just to pull the cover off the panel and be able to identify problems.


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> Yet you expect a HI to take the same path as you, just to pull the cover off the panel and be able to identify problems.


NOPE :no:





If he can't identify problems in the panel I would rather he leave the cover in place and call an electrician to do that portion of the inspection. :yes:





Thanks for asking! :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> NOPE :no:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he can't identify problems in the panel I would rather he leave the cover in place and call an electrician to do that portion of the inspection. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for asking! :thumbsup:


But according to you, he must have a solid theory background in order to understand WHY it's a problem.



TheRick said:


> Normally I would agree with you Bob, learning is always good, but learning as you go when you are performing electrical inspections is not acceptable in my book. That is how people get hurt and die  I have seen the results first hand, and it never ends good.
> 
> I do not conduct structural or plumbing inspections because I am not an expert in either of those fields. Inspecting should be left to subject matter experts that can identify whether an installation is correct, and why or why not it is.



Therefore, every electrician in the world must obtain a college degree before they start working in the field. Sorry, that just ain't ever gonna happen.


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## TheRick

I said INSPECTORS not ELECTRICIANS big difference, and I never said they needed a degree, just a good knowledge of the field before they start inspecting the validity of other's work.


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## 480sparky

So if they don't have a grasp on ONE SLIVER OF THEORY, they shouldn't be a HI?


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## wildleg

One of the things you might try to do is get a good book or two on the basic parts of electrical work, and maybe even work towards an understanding of the code enough to take the test. There are several great learning tools out there. Some other sites sells dvd's that would greatly help your understanding of things like grounding and bonding, and basic wiring concepts that you should know. The dvd's make it easier to learn than trying to find your way thru the code on your own, which can be next to impossible.


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> So if they don't have a grasp on ONE SLIVER OF THEORY, they shouldn't be a HI?


If you are asking for my OPINION I would say that HIs should stay the hell out of inspecting electrical systems, unless they have some kind of knowledge and certification. 

How can someone with no knowledge or experience assess the safety of an electrical installation?


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> If you are asking for my OPINION I would say that HIs should stay the hell out of inspecting electrical systems, unless they have some kind of knowledge and certification?


How do you know for a fact he doesn't? For all we know, he may be the world's best HI. He understands what an open neutral can do to voltages. He may understand why a GFI on an ungrounded circuit won't trip with a plug-in tester. He may well be able to draw out a California 3-way on the back of an envelope. Just because he asks one question, you consider him totally incompetent.



TheRick said:


> ............How can someone with no knowledge or experience assess the safety of an electrical installation?


How can someone learn without asking question?


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## Joe Tedesco

*MILITARY HANDBOOK GROUNDING, BONDING, AND SHIELDING FOR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENTS AND FACILITIES VOLUME I OF 2 VOLUMES BASIC THEORY*

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/FEDMIL/hdbk419a_vol2.pdf

_Please, see Chapter 1-112 for an example._

Also, the 2011 NEC can be viewed on the NFPA website showing the changes that were made as well, and they also have a new archive for all copies of the first through the present NEC including the reports, etc.


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## TheRick

480sparky said:


> How can someone learn without asking question?


 
I am going to bed now, it is almost 0100 here, but all I am saying is if an individual is making the determination of whether an electrical system is safe or not they should not be learning as they go. If you don't know what a properly installed system looks like, how can you identify an improperly installed system?


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## 480sparky

TheRick said:


> I am going to bed now, it is almost 0100 here, but all I am saying is if an individual is making the determination of whether an electrical system is safe or not they should not be learning as they go. If you don't know what a properly installed system looks like, how can you identify an improperly installed system?



He's not asking what it _should look like_. He's asking a_ theory question_.


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## brian john

Bob Badger said:


> Just curious.
> 
> How does it help HIs become better if when they ask the right people for advice they get slammed?
> 
> .


 
And as the HI posted many ECs and electricians HAVE NO CLUE...An educated consumer is our best customer.

Many EC's do have a chip on their sholder for HI's and DIYers, many ECs feel should be left to us, yet many EC's are just as clueless as some HIs and as far as DIY many ECs and electricians are doing their own wood work, carperntry, plumbing and on and on.


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## Bob Badger

TheRick said:


> Normally I would agree with you Bob, learning is always good, but learning as you go when you are performing electrical inspections is not acceptable in my book. That is how people get hurt and die  I have seen the results first hand, and it never ends good. .


Rick I cannot see the logic.

HIs will rarely be the cause of unsafe wiring but HIs are very often the cause of unsafe wiring being repaired.

In a perfect world HOs would hire electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer etc each evaluating their specialty but that is not going to happen.

So instead of no inspection they get inspected by a generalist that may very well find some real problems.

Now admittedly sometimes HIs make mistakes that cost the HOs money for no reason. That happens with HIs, mechanics and electricians as well.

IMPO HIs are good for home safety and good for electricians wallets.


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## BuzzKill

I hear a dead horse getting beat....


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## 480sparky

BuzzKill said:


> I hear a dead horse getting beat....



Let's slobber some 3M Scotchkote on it, stuff it in a PVC box, and bury it in the yard.:shifty:


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## jwjrw

wildleg said:


> One of the things you might try to do is get a good book or two on the basic parts of electrical work, and maybe even work towards an understanding of the code enough to take the test. There are several great learning tools out there. Some other sites sells dvd's that would greatly help your understanding of things like grounding and bonding, and basic wiring concepts that you should know. The dvd's make it easier to learn than trying to find your way thru the code on your own, which can be next to impossible.


 
I ordered books. Studied for a few months and passed my jman. It can be done.


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## raider1

BuzzKill said:


> I hear a dead horse getting beat....


Thats OK as long as the dead horse is not being molested.

"(Fletch)What’re you in for?"

"(Ben Dover)Moleseting a dead horse."

"(Fletch)Well..I cant see whats so wrong with that…..did the horse object? "

Chris


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## jwjrw

raider1 said:


> Thats OK as long as the dead horse is not being molested.
> 
> "(Fletch)What’re you in for?"
> 
> "(Ben Dover)Moleseting a dead horse."
> 
> "(Fletch)Well..I cant see whats so wrong with that…..did the horse object? "
> 
> Chris


 
:lol::lol:


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## 480sparky

One shouldn't be molesting dead horses until they fully understand the theory behind doing so.:shifty:


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## jwjrw

480sparky said:


> One shouldn't be molesting dead horses until they fully understand the theory behind doing so.:shifty:


 
I heard on the news a few months back they arrested a guy for having sex with a horse. Then he gets popped doing it to the same horse again. It must be love.....:yes:


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## 480sparky

jwjrw said:


> I heard on the news a few months back they arrested a guy for having sex with a horse. Then he gets popped doing it to the same horse again. It must be love.....:yes:



Is the horse dead?


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## jwjrw

480sparky said:


> Is the horse dead?


He might be now.....IDK. The horse thing just made me remember the news story. It wasn't you was it 480?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> The biggest difference between the ground*ed* conductor ("neutral") and the ground*ing* conductor ("ground") is the former carries current under normal circumstances. The latter only should during a fault.
> 
> Once the current reaches the panel, whether through the grounded or grounding, it's easiest path back to the source (utility transformer) is the same..... the service neutral.


Your latter statement here is true, IF you have the neutral bonded to the ground at that particular panel. If you DO have the neutral tied to the ground at a sub panel that would be incorrect... and dangerous. So, do you think that this is an untrue statement?


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## 480sparky

jwjrw said:


> He might be now.....IDK. The horse thing just made me remember the news story. It wasn't you was it 480?



No, I haven't been near a horse for about 6 or 7 years.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Your latter statement here is true, IF you have the neutral bonded to the ground at that particular panel. If you DO have the neutral tied to the ground at a sub panel that would be incorrect... and dangerous.


I assumed a main panel, where the noodle is bonded.



RIVETER said:


> So, do you think that this is an untrue statement?


What statement? :001_huh:


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> I assumed a main panel, where the noodle is bonded.
> 
> 
> 
> What statement? :001_huh:


Come on, Sparky.:blink:


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> Come on, Sparky.:blink:


Where to?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> Where to?


This is fun, isn't it? If you will, go to post #3 and pick it apart. Tell me where it is wrong.:thumbsup: Are you coming to the picnic? I am having a demonstration.


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> This is fun, isn't it? If you will, go to post #3 and pick it apart. Tell me where it is wrong.:thumbsup: Are you coming to the picnic? I am having a demonstration.


To me, 'stray' currents are caused by the close proximity of energized wires inducing current flow into paths that are not intended to carry current.

If it's a picnic, do I need to bring a dish?


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## RIVETER

480sparky said:


> To me, 'stray' currents are caused by the close proximity of energized wires inducing current flow into paths that are not intended to carry current.
> 
> If it's a picnic, do I need to bring a dish?


The stray voltages that we hear of are caused by stray currents. Those stray currents are a result, usually, of loose connections. If a neutral wire gets loose for some reason...AND... they are a mechanical connection usually...the load current will seek another path back to the source. That other path could very well be through the water pipe system because of the commonness of their connections at the panel. This stray current by it's very nature through any conductor will develope a voltage drop. If a person, comes in contact with the metal water pipe system and another part of his body is touching a grounded object he becomes a parallel path for circuit current.:thumbsup:

As far as the picnic goes...wear the red britches you wore last year.:yes:


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> If it's a picnic, do I need to bring a dish?



I like picnics


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> I like picnics


Where's Boo Boo?


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## 480sparky

RIVETER said:


> As far as the picnic goes...wear the red britches you wore last year.:yes:



These?








​


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## bobster

RIVETER said:


> Your latter statement here is true, IF you have the neutral bonded to the ground at that particular panel. If you DO have the neutral tied to the ground at a sub panel that would be incorrect... and dangerous. So, do you think that this is an untrue statement?


Okay, since small subpanel boxes have a neutral and ground block that appears tied together, what should be done in that case? Hope I'm not opening a horses mouth again, but you started it.:zorro:


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## Jlarson

480sparky said:


> He's not asking what it _should look like_. He's asking a_ theory question_.


Rant Time 

Yeah can't someone just ask a question without getting belittled. Just like 480 said he's only asking a question. There isn't a damned one of us on here that knows every single little thing about electrical or anything for that matter, and hopefully no one claims they do. And what do all of us do when we come across something we don't know, look it up, try to figure it out and solve the problem or ya all ready for it, ask a question to learn. He could just go around writing the wrong things on reports but he wants to learn. 

I'm not directing this at anybody just putting it out there.


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## RIVETER

bobster said:


> Okay, since small subpanel boxes have a neutral and ground block that appears tied together, what should be done in that case? Hope I'm not opening a horses mouth again, but you started it.:zorro:


It doesn't bother me. I love talking electricity as we all do. I can only say that you have to visualize the consequences of tying the neutral to the mechanical ground at a sub panel. Let's say you have a sink in the garage and it has a metal piping system as well...and that metal system is EFFECTIVELY grounded. If you tie the neutral to the mechanical ground because you did not run an EGC to the garage, and there is a hot wire to the shell of the panel fault...AND, you happen to be leaning against the panel and touching the metal components of the sink, you could possibly become a parallel path for circuit current, and that is deadly.


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## brian john

Jlarson said:


> Rant Time
> 
> . There isn't a damned one of us on here that knows every single little thing about electrical or anything for that matter, and hopefully no one claims they do. .


Everytime I think I am pretty smart something comes along to stump me stupid.


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## RIVETER

Jlarson said:


> Rant Time
> 
> Yeah can't someone just ask a question without getting belittled. Just like 480 said he's only asking a question. There isn't a damned one of us on here that knows every single little thing about electrical or anything for that matter, and hopefully no one claims they do. And what do all of us do when we come across something we don't know, look it up, try to figure it out and solve the problem or ya all ready for it, ask a question to learn. He could just go around writing the wrong things on reports but he wants to learn.
> 
> I'm not directing this at anybody just putting it out there.


Rant away...nothing wrong with that. You have to stand up and yell every now and then. If you just get mad and leave, sometime in the future we won't learn from you.:thumbsup:


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> Rant away...nothing wrong with that. You have to stand up and yell every now and then. If you just get mad and leave, sometime in the future we won't learn from you.:thumbsup:


Like what pf devices???????????????????????:huh::blink::clap:


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## Jlarson

> Rant away...nothing wrong with that. You have to stand up and yell every now and then.


You guys can't get me mad, that takes a hell of a lot more than any thing any of you could do. 



> If you just get mad and leave, sometime in the future we won't learn from you.


That's pretty much my goal is to help someone learn, kind of like someone else helped me learn.


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## Jlarson

brian john said:


> Like what pf devices???????????????????????:huh::blink::clap:


:laughing::laughing:


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> Like what pf devices???????????????????????:huh::blink::clap:


Father...forgive them...they know not what they say.:no:


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## RIVETER

TheRick said:


> If you are asking for my OPINION I would say that HIs should stay the hell out of inspecting electrical systems, unless they have some kind of knowledge and certification.
> 
> How can someone with no knowledge or experience assess the safety of an electrical installation?


I am in total agreement here. I believe I have posted here about the fact that I believe a property should not be allowed to change hands...legally, until it has been inspected by a qualified electrical inspector/contractor. It just makes sense.


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## TheRick

Bob Badger said:


> HIs will rarely be the cause of unsafe wiring


I can agree with that!



Bob Badger said:


> In a perfect world HOs would hire electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer etc each evaluating their specialty but that is not going to happen.


and that........but......... 



Bob Badger said:


> Now admittedly sometimes HIs make mistakes that cost the HOs money for no reason. That happens with HIs, mechanics and electricians as well.
> 
> IMPO HIs are good for home safety and good for electricians wallets.


IF the mistake errs in the above and beyond direction you are correct, but what happens when an HI deems the elctrical system safe when it is not? 

That is my concern!

I know it is a much different situation........but 18 US Servicemembers lost their lives because inspections were being performed by unqualified personnel, systems with no fault path were deemed safe by general inspectors that could not identify the improperly installed systems.


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## bobster

RIVETER said:


> It doesn't bother me. I love talking electricity as we all do. I can only say that you have to visualize the consequences of tying the neutral to the mechanical ground at a sub panel. Let's say you have a sink in the garage and it has a metal piping system as well...and that metal system is EFFECTIVELY grounded. If you tie the neutral to the mechanical ground because you did not run an EGC to the garage, and there is a hot wire to the shell of the panel fault...AND, you happen to be leaning against the panel and touching the metal components of the sink, you could possibly become a parallel path for circuit current, and that is deadly.


 Excellent. Amateur handymen add subpanels all the time to basements, sometimes tying into the 240 range or dryer setup if there is also a gas hookup used. That would definitely cause the issue you are talking about. I will look for a separate EGC run for the ground. Despite all the rhetoric here, I have learned a lot and now get it.:thumbup:


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> It doesn't bother me. I love talking electricity as we all do. I can only say that you have to visualize the consequences of tying the neutral to the *mechanical ground* at a sub panel.


Now some say grounding is confusing and then you throw out terms with NO IEEE/NEC definition?



> Let's say you have a sink in the garage and it has a metal piping system as well...and that metal system is EFFECTIVELY grounded. If you tie the neutral to the mechanical ground because you did not run an EGC to the garage, and there is a hot wire to the shell of the panel fault...AND, you happen to be leaning against the panel and touching the metal components of the sink, you could possibly become a parallel path for circuit current, and that is deadly.


 
And the same thing could happen with a properly installed EGC, NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.

The issue is under normal operating conditions the metallic components of the building would be carrying some of the neutral current. Because what we are taught "electricity takes the path of least resistance" is not entirely true, electricity takes all path available, and divides or shares per Mr. Ohms law.


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## bobster

TheRick said:


> That is my concern!
> 
> I know it is a much different situation........but 18 US Servicemembers lost their lives because inspections were being performed by unqualified personnel, systems with no fault path were deemed safe by general inspectors that could not identify the improperly installed systems.


Okay, You just pointed to the bigger problem. Someone had to originally wire these situations. Were they qualified? And these are only the ones that were found because someone lost their life. Imagine the number that didn't get identified. This was not an inspector problem. These wiring setups were probably inspected by someone who said they met code originally. Making this a reason to bash inspectors is beyond my comprehension. It all comes down to there are good electricans and HIs as there are bad. It's not a one-sided deal if the inspector does not find the problem. I will admit this, if what you say is true that wiring setups (military and otherwise) might be this bad, then inspectors must surely need to be trained electricians, but that is simply the need for a qualified electrician to check the original wiring, not an inspector to find it in the haystack. :no:


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## brian john

bobster said:


> . That would definitely cause the issue you are talking about. I will look for a separate egc run for the ground. Despite all the rhetoric here, i have learned a lot and now get it.:thumbup:


 
In this case Riv is incorrect, learn proper terminology and do look for the seperate EGC, but not for the reason noted.


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> Now some say grounding is confusing and then you throw out terms with NO IEEE/NEC definition?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking me to define mechanical ground?
Click to expand...


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now some say grounding is confusing and then you throw out terms with NO IEEE/NEC definition?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you asking me to define mechanical ground?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please......
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## bobster

brian john said:


> In this case Riv is incorrect, learn proper terminology and do look for the seperate EGC, but not for the reason noted.


Now you know my plight. How the heck am I going to understand this if you all are having problems with it.:blink:


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> RIVETER said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brian john said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now some say grounding is confusing and then you throw out terms with NO IEEE/NEC definition?
> 
> 
> Please......
> 
> 
> 
> In our usage here, Equipment ground and mechanical ground are one and the same. Are you saying you have never heard of the term Mechanical ground? Either are electrically at ground potential potential but only tied physically to the neutral at the service. Maybe I'm not woke up yet but that is all I got. Maybe the term mechanical is referring to the method of attacthment TO ground, such as cadweld...or rod and clamp, or a lug. I've always considered them the same because of their potential. Sorry if I confused anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## RIVETER

brian john said:


> In this case Riv is incorrect, learn proper terminology and do look for the seperate EGC, but not for the reason noted.


Brian, you are correct about me being incorrect. I just reread the post and I think I had a brain fart when I was writing. I have questions here a lot and at the same time and I get confused. I should not have stated the part about the (fault, hot, to ground) possibility because if otherwise wired properly, the breaker should already be tripped if is was a good ground. However, what do you think about the possibilty if it were an intermittent arc fault?


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## brian john

bobster said:


> Now you know my plight. How the heck am I going to understand this if you all are having problems with it.:blink:


I am not having a problem I just think Riv made an error. HAppens all the time (not to him).


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## brian john

RIVETER said:


> Brian, you are correct about me bing incorrect. I just reread the post and I think I had a brain fart when I was writing. {/quote]
> 
> 
> I typed before reading all the post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have questions here a lot and at the same time and I get confused. I should not have stated the part about the (fault, hot, to ground) possibility because if otherwise wired properly, the breaker should already be tripped if is was a good ground. However, what do you think about the possibilty if it were an intermittent arc fault?
> 
> 
> 
> No than I can think of.
> 
> The potential for shock is still there during the duration of the fault or till such time as the CB operates.
Click to expand...


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## swimmer

bobster said:


> This is probably going to make some you roll over, but I'm just starting out as a home inspector and am having difficulty understanding the ground/neutral connections. I see the neutral going to a neutral bar and the ground going to a ground bar, but the neutral and ground appear to be connected. If the ground also goes to an outside ground rod and the neutral goes back to the electrical company--THEN why doesn't the load simply go into the ground vs. going through the neutral? I've asked 5 people in construction and they have no clue either, just tell me that's the way it works. Does electrical potential has something to do with it?
> 
> I also saw a situation where it appeared the neutral and ground were grounded through a water pipe and no neutral was connected to outside power?
> 
> If this is not the right forum for this then show me the way out...:blink:
> 
> Thanks, I just don't know where to go to get the right info.



Neutral / Ground can be confusing. Sparky480 explained it pretty good. As a side recommendation, Check for aluminum wiring in the house if you are working for the buyer. If the house is wired with aluminum, there is a good chance the buyer will have to get expensive electrical work done.

New owners often show me an inspection check list they think will cost $200 - $500 to correct. They get pretty shocked when I give them a $1500 estimate to make repairs to Al wiring that will comply with local codes.


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## noarcflash

When I hear of HI opening panels, I ask them if they follow 70E, and put their PPE on, and do an arc flash calculation before opening the panel. 

I like the business model of the HI. He's a little clueless, and a little clue-full. So he opens the panel, has a little idea of what he's looking at, takes a picture of wires slopped in there, and presents the picture to the homeowner for $500. 

Then he walks around with a plug in hot/neutral light to see if outlets are grounded, and writes in down on a fancy preprinted report.

and the prosepective HO is very impressed with his work.

This will certainly be my next career when I retire from pulling wires.


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## twidget

*Understanding Neutral vs. Ground*

Yes, we are taught that electricity will follow the path of least resistance, and this is another common and DANGEROUS misconception. Electricity will follow ALL paths available from a points of different potential, not just the path of least resistance. Copper conductors are paths of low resistance but ALL conductive paths will carry some current.


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