# Residential Service



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Complete and utter rip out and rewire. At profit. The customer purchased or inherited a lousy wired structure, it's not your fault so don't let them play cry cry to you in any way , shape or form. Charge Large. If they balk, pull up anchor and sail away in the noon tide.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

"There are roughly 12 breakers in the panel, and one two pole 50 for the dishwasher."

A 2 pole 50 for a dishwasher? What size wire is feeding this dishwasher?
I think I know your problem


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

My take on this won't change any based on a 50 amp breaker probably wired with #12 or 14 cu romex. Gut and rewire. Charge Large. Thrive. You don't need a fire hazard customer for life , you need a safe rewired house customer for life , even if they never need to call you again.


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## Bdleon (Mar 26, 2018)

bostonPedro said:


> A 2 pole 50 for a dishwasher? What size wire is feeding this dishwasher?
> I think I know your problem


I’m almost positive it’s on 10 wire.


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## Bdleon (Mar 26, 2018)

Yeah I agree with that that entirely. 



macmikeman said:


> My take on this won't change any based on a 50 amp breaker probably wired with #12 or 14 cu romex. Gut and rewire. Charge Large. Thrive. You don't need a fire hazard customer for life , you need a safe rewired house customer for life , even if they never need to call you again.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Bdleon said:


> I’m almost positive it’s on 10 wire.


Have you you actually looked at the dishwasher. 
I am curious as to what type of Dishwasher is 2 pole 50 amps? 

Sounds like someone put in a sub panel somewhere....now is that sub panel in her apartment or is someone using her panel to power up something in the other apartment?


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## Bdleon (Mar 26, 2018)

bostonPedro said:


> Bdleon said:
> 
> 
> > I’m almost positive it’s on 10 wire.
> ...


Well no I haven’t seen the specs on the dishwasher but I do know it runs directly into that panel which is the first floors panel only. The second floor which is the second families living area has its own which is no where near at capacity compared to the first floors panel. I too thought there’d be a sub panel after seeing the “dishwashers breaker” sizing.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Bdleon said:


> Well no I haven’t seen the specs on the dishwasher but I do know it runs directly into that panel which is the first floors panel only. The second floor which is the second families living area has its own which is no where near at capacity compared to the first floors panel. I too thought there’d be a sub panel after seeing the “dishwashers breaker” sizing.


I would turn that 50 amp breaker off and see where it goes.

I never see a resdential dishwasher that required 50 amp circuit that gotta be a big arse booster or instat water heater. ( ya I have see it in commercal with high capacity dishwasher that is norm. ) 

And I would take a photo of that panel to show the proof that someone did serious screw up job on that. and try to trace it where it goes if possible. 

Did that place have electric stove any chance ?


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## Bdleon (Mar 26, 2018)

frenchelectrican said:


> Bdleon said:
> 
> 
> > Well no I haven’t seen the specs on the dishwasher but I do know it runs directly into that panel which is the first floors panel only. The second floor which is the second families living area has its own which is no where near at capacity compared to the first floors panel. I too thought there’d be a sub panel after seeing the “dishwashers breaker” sizing.
> ...


It’s funny you say that because I just got back from the home, turns out it isn’t a dishwasher after all it’s a stove. A gas powered stove at that which doesn’t make sense since it’s on a 50 amp two pole breaker my educated guess is there was an electric stove at one point. My question is even if this thing is the problem, can that cause the power outage on just the first floor Togo and come sporadically like that?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

bostonPedro said:


> Have you you actually looked at the dishwasher.
> I am curious as to what type of Dishwasher is 2 pole 50 amps?
> 
> Sounds like someone put in a sub panel somewhere....now is that sub panel in her apartment or is someone using her panel to power up something in the other apartment?


How would that change his problem. There is still an outage.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

What exactly did the utility company do when they checked connections? Did they do a load test?

I’m guessing either utility or loose neutral somewhere.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

sometimes they say everything goes out, and it turns out to be just one circuit that happens to have everything they are likely to notice on it

or one leg

either way an intermittent open, fixing probably easy, finding probably not


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> sometimes they say everything goes out, and it turns out to be just one circuit that happens to have everything they are likely to notice on it
> 
> or one leg
> 
> either way an intermittent open, fixing probably easy, finding probably not


I have done so many of those “ everything went out” calls and most of the time it’s just one circuit. Of course, it never happens when your there so a good test to tell the home owner to do is when it happens, try something that requires 240, like a dryer or electric stove. Then you know if you’ve lost one leg, helps trouble shooting.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

why does this sound like a homeowner with very little electrical knowledge to me?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drspec said:


> why does this sound like a homeowner with very little electrical knowledge to me?


Because you have decent troubleshooting skills!


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

Replace the panel like the others have said. Also check to see what devices they have on when they notice the outtage. It sounds like a combination of the two things, an undersized service and a lose neutral somewhere in the system. Do they have an equal number of neutrals for the 120v circuits? Or are they sharing neutrals somewhere down the line as used to be common practice?

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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

A 60A. main, w/a 50A. DW ckt.? =Profit.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Plug in four cube heaters two on each phase and check voltage at main in panel. 55 amp load may show problem. Turn off one and check if current appears on netural


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joebanana said:


> A 60A. main, w/a 50A. DW ckt.? =Profit.


I haven't done a ton of resi work but I'd bet no DW without a heated booster ever had a 50amp circuit! 

And that isn't something that goes in a house.

The bells and whistles should have been in full swing thinking that was a DW circuit.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I haven't done a ton of resi work but I'd bet no DW without a heated booster ever had a 50amp circuit!
> 
> And that isn't something that goes in a house.
> 
> The bells and whistles should have been in full swing thinking that was a DW circuit.


I don't think even commercial ones get over 30A. Never seen a resi. one over 20A.
I'm thinking something got mislabeled. (or, joe homeowner been doin' some "upgrading").


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

joebanana said:


> I don't think even commercial ones get over 30A. Never seen a resi. one over 20A.
> I'm thinking something got mislabeled. (or, joe homeowner been doin' some "upgrading").


Typically with commercial you have two circuits one for the DW and one for the booster.


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## nathan.hoggatt (Jan 31, 2018)

Bdleon said:


> Hey guys made this account just for this particular problem I’m havig and hoping you guys can help. So I am working on a two family home. The reason I was called out is because the first floor is getting an outage where everything goes out, all circuits (lighting and receptacles). You would think the main service disconnect breaker would be tripped, but it didn’t nor does it at all. The outages come randomly and can last seconds or minutes throughout the day. The home owner says she never has to go down and reset a break because it never trips. So what I did is replace the main breaker which in this case was a 60 Amp two pole which services the first floor. There are roughly 12 breakers in the panel, and one two pole 50 for the dishwasher. After replacing the main breaker it still persists, local utility company checked the meter and all connections and readings were fine. One thing I will point out is, the panel is definitely overloaded and also the wire gauge in the service is far too low. It’s on an 8awg. Any ideas or advice?


What brand of panel is it? Is it a split bus panel?

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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

Is the main breaker for this tight, bolt, stab, wires? Sounds like a heat problem, cools down and they get power back. If it is, it's only going to get worse.

Tim.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

bostonPedro said:


> Sounds like someone put in a sub panel somewhere....


or a range.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The guy never came back. Pretty good chance he was a homeowner or tenant, grasping for straws.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The guy never came back. Pretty good chance he was a homeowner or tenant, grasping for straws.


There are times that guys with questions outside of their normal work get scared off by the regulars here.

Homeowners and DIYers tend to get nasty and bite back thinking they have a right to stay.


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