# Romex Bundling



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

1. I've never seen anyone do that with PVC male terminal adapters.
2. Why is a bare ground wire coming out of a sub panel?


----------



## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Those NMDs should be secured with an approved connector. Every wire not in a conduit should. Even a GEC. 🤭


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Should place a 2x4 or 2 above panel and staple romex to that in pairs of 2, then come down into panel through a button or romex connector.





Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I've taken nicer dumps. Even the bloody ones.


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Male adapters are for pipe. That's not pipe.

Do it right.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Who is supervising you? Will this be inspected? Do you have liability insurance?


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Bird dog said:


> Who is supervising you? Will this be inspected? Do you have liability insurance?


He's trained by IBEW. [ looks like he needs to bring his JM in on this one, is IBEW training all bookwork???]

it's already failed an inspection. [ where are the pics of that??? We wanna see!]

I doubt he has insurance, sounds like a side job. [ I hope the in laws have good insurance!]

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Do you have grommets in those metal studs? Maybe he took issue with the "workmanlike" manner, you could have at least cut the tails off the Ty-Raps. And no panel cover. Which means no panel schedule.
So, what did he ding you on? Or is he keeping it a secret?


----------



## trevorawalton (Jun 3, 2018)

Sub panel is fed UG from another building that has meter main and service disconnect. 
The 2" TAs were not my favorite option, but I was talked into it by a consulting journeyman. 
I have looked into 2 piece PVC conduits I could wrap those with to achieve a supported nipplepier type application, but I wouldn't be able to put a bushing on it. 
What if i spread them out again before they enter the panel with some staples and wood blocking?


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

trevorawalton said:


> Sub panel is fed UG from another building that has meter main and service disconnect.
> The 2" TAs were not my favorite option, but I was talked into it by a consulting journeyman.
> I have looked into 2 piece PVC conduits I could wrap those with to achieve a supported nipplepier type application, but I wouldn't be able to put a bushing on it.
> What if i spread them out again before they enter the panel with some staples and wood blocking?


Read post 4!

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

don't be afraid to redo something, that thinking can waste a lot of time and money. Also a suggestion for future resi side jobs, don't be afraid to use emt where you might normally see romex, the cost difference even including labor is not enough to me. sounds like you probably know emt and mc pretty well, i suggest avoiding NM.

get a piece of sheet metal and repair the cabinet and use nm connectors or i think square d makes some junk looking setup for a ton of nms exiting a cabinet. You will probably need another horizontal above the panel to secure all the cables, one in front of the other. are those pvc couplings your using for metal stud bushings? and it looks like you need bushings in the top plate. don't bundle the cables, let em run cooler. is there a good reason the panel needs to be in a different cavity than the cables need to be in?

no good deed goes unpunished


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I just dont know what to say on that photo but yuh you did fail in couple spots but right now you learn something.,

first of all why ya need those 2" TA in there ? that I am thinking the inspector may ding ya on that.

the distance of bundeing is hard to say on photo but I would spread it out to get away with restriction of derating in bundling that what useally nail ya if you are not aware of that. 

Third ., why a bare grounding conductor running there ? and what size it is ? if this is a subpanel you will get dinged on this pretty quick. 

Few other guys did make a very valid points on the situation.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm not understanding the bare ground (looks like #4 or maybe #6)
especially when they used SER to feed the sub panel.

I've seen much worse lack of workmanship though.
I give him A for effort in neatness , but D on code.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I'm not understanding the bare ground (looks like #4 or maybe #6)
> especially when they used SER to feed the sub panel.
> 
> I've seen much worse lack of workmanship though.
> I give him A for effort in neatness , but D on code.


That is my point what up with bare conductor if they did ran damm SER cable in first place.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> That is my point what up with bare conductor if they did ran damm SER cable in first place.


That bare copper is the GEC.

This subpanel is in a detached building he said.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Hey Frenchy

If the panel in the picture is in a detached building , I 
wonder how SER is getting out there to it?


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

joebanana said:


> Do you have grommets in those metal studs?


Forget the workman like manner for the grommets. The metal edge will cut wire insulation & short (smoke & fire).


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That bare copper is the GEC.
> 
> This subpanel is in a detached building he said.


Thanks for pointing it out to me.,, I gotcha what you are saying on that.



lighterup said:


> Hey Frenchy
> 
> If the panel in the picture is in a detached building , I
> wonder how SER is getting out there to it?


I been wondering too if the OP did ran SER to detached building in pipe or direct burial or what .,,


----------



## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

HackWork said:


> That bare copper is the GEC.
> 
> This subpanel is in a detached building he said.


No, in his first post he says the attached pic is a sub panel. The bare copper remains a mystery.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Thanks for pointing it out to me.,, I gotcha what you are saying on that.
> 
> 
> 
> I been wondering too if the OP did ran SER to detached building in pipe or direct burial or what .,,


I will usually switch from pipe to cable when coming into a building. Even on service entrances. It's just so much easier running cable.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> No, in his first post he says the attached pic is a sub panel. The bare copper remains a mystery.


It _is_ a subpanel, but it is in a detached building:



trevorawalton said:


> Sub panel is fed UG from another building that has meter main and service disconnect.


----------



## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> > No, in his first post he says the attached pic is a sub panel. The bare copper remains a mystery.
> ...


Ah, yes, never mind.


----------



## trevorawalton (Jun 3, 2018)

SER is for future 100A to a future barn and shop.


----------



## trevorawalton (Jun 3, 2018)

Inspector is keeping this part of the failure a secret on the report. That's why I'm struggling on how to fix it. I wasn't there for inspection. 
Home owner was there for inspection, and it sounds like the inspector is more concerned with "supporting" the NM. They discussed a PVC riser between 18-24 inches as a possible option (thus the split, 2-piece pvc I think I mentioned earlier). But I don't have any idea where that thought process or height came from. Seems like he wasn't too concerned with the PVC TAs, which is why I wonder if spreading them through the lateral (cutting a rectangular chase and using edgeguard), and vertically to prevent the de-rating. 
GEC is #2 cuz I errored on side of caution. SER for future is 1/0 Alum. And i did use listed bushings for every penetration. Did I miss any other confusion? 
Thank you for all the helpful, and not so helpful responses. I'm looking at you bloody-stool.


----------



## Ctsparky93 (Sep 17, 2016)

Do you have a main breaker on that sub panel? Bundling looks longer then 24 inches. Inspectors around here would not let us use TA as connectors because they are not listed for the use with Romex. But I have seen pictures on people using them. Grounds and naturals separated? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> Forget the workman like manner for the grommets. The metal edge will cut wire insulation & short (smoke & fire).


 The lack of grommets was in addition to lack of workmanlike manner. Why are the cables going through that stud in the first place? Should be in the same bay as the panel. Lack of NM connectors, and lousy cable dressing is glaring. Shows a lack of experience. I like using the word lack,a lot, lack a lot, if I had a long lack a lot. I like the word lag too, but not as much as lack. Lack a lot just sounds better than lag a lot. Lag a lot just lacks the punch of lack a lot. Lick is good too, I like to get licked..............a lot. Licks that lag, lack a lot.
Whens lunch. I like lunch....a lot. I never lag when it comes to lunch.


Ohhhh, look at the time...


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Here every wire would need a connector as it enters the panel. Amazed that in some places in the US they allow them to pass through the pvc connectors like that.


----------



## Ctsparky93 (Sep 17, 2016)

Also both of the emt on the right side don’t have straps. Your grounds are all twisted together to they go to one lug? Got more pictures? Might also need some kind of fire stop above panel penetrations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dark Knight said:


> No, in his first post he says the attached pic is a sub panel. The bare copper remains a mystery.



But the bare ground does make sense for a separate ground 
rod at the detached building though.

edit...never mind I just woke up


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Here every wire would need a connector as it enters the panel. Amazed that in some places in the US they allow them to pass through the pvc connectors like that.


I don't know how they get away with that. 

The only time I can see it making sense is when the panel is on the outside of a building. Having all the cables come thru 1 large hole is better (and easier to seal) than having to make swiss cheese out of the house with 20-30 little holes.


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

You can use the plastic T&B NM connector and use 2 NM 12/2 cables in each connector. Cut down on the number of connectors.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You are going to be ripping those wires out and putting in romex connectors. I wouldn't worry about the bundling much but the inspector still needs to give you a code section and that matter wherever you are.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

The best way to learn is to make mistakes. From what I can see from this photo is that you may have used PVC couplings as grommets where your cables pass through the metal stud and into the bay that the panel is in. Always use parts "approved for the purpose". This would also apply for the ty-wraps that support the cables. Don't let it get you down. We all make mistakes. I would never consider running Romex through metal studs even with an approved grommet. As suggested by another member I would put a pull box above the panel and run EMT or flex runs from there into the panel. You did a few things right. Your branch circuits are organized for the most part Odds and Evens. It's always good practice to do that instead of having circuits crossing back and forth across the top of the panel, making it hard on the next guy. You numbered your wires that helps to keep track of circuits in respect to what CB they belong to. It looks like you have about 18 circuits ran in Romex. Hard to see how may 12-3's are in the bundle. I personally don't like to add splices to a circuit if I can help it but if you were to add a pull box you would have that to think about. I would defiantly consider at least putting the service entrance conductors in conduit but its not required. Is there any reason why you cant bring the romex into the same stud bay as the panel? That would be your best method and the romex look plenty long to do that. Good luck and think about everything before you commit to an install.


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I've taken nicer dumps. Even the bloody ones.


it's not that bad. Ive seen much much worse.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Easy said:


> Always use parts "approved for the purpose". This would also apply for the ty-wraps that support the cables.


I think that might not always be true

But go ahead and give NEC reference, I been wrong before and will again


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

trentonmakes said:


> He's trained by IBEW. [ looks like he needs to bring his JM in on this one, is IBEW training all bookwork???]
> 
> it's already failed an inspection. [ where are the pics of that??? We wanna see!]
> 
> ...


I've seen worse installations by JM who needed assistance.

why would his In-laws insurance? Do see this installation as a fire hazard?


----------



## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

my research points to code section 312.5 (c) .you can enter a SURFACE -mounted panel using a pipe but not shorter than 18" .

there might not be enough KOs on the left side to individually terminate 2 cables per connector


----------



## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

It is easy to pick someone else's work apart. Honestly, your work isn't that bad. The bottom line here is that residential varies from AHJ to AHJ. Good work is good work, but each inspector has their pet peeves they will nail you on.

You need to be seeing what specific complaints the inspector has so that it can be corrected.

Also, man, as others have suggested, cut off your <insert expletive of choice here> zip tie ends. Always. That is sloppy and lazy. You don't even need that many zip ties. Inspectors don't look as hard when they see work that is generally clean, and it appears attention has been paid to small details.

If finding out what the inspect wants is impractical, you need to cut off those zip ties bundling the wire, set you two boards at the top where the conduit and wires come in and right above the panel. Get rid of those lousy brackets and NEATLY stable your cables up and secure your conduits. THEN put those wires in romex connectors and plug those holes with KO fillers.

Call the inspector back over and be there hanging sheetrock, sweeping the floor, whatever when he shows up and just listen from a distance.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> I think that might not always be true
> 
> But go ahead and give NEC reference, I been wrong before and will again


You are correct. Romex support does not need to be listed or “approved”. You can use duct tape, tiewire, cut pieces of Romex, etc.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I remember in the past where I used cut pieces of romex to support cables. I also used a roofers ax to cut the cable and drive in staples. Anything to save time. Trevorawalton said in his original post “3rd year IBEW Inside Apprentice here. Doing residential remodel for in-laws.” He also said “Never done residential work before” This installation is very sloppy. I was trying to cut Trevor some slack and not put down his work. Looking at the photo a 2nd time I can see that he must have been rushed for some reason. That's no excuse. It's sad to see that after 3 years of training this is the results. There must of been some reason the home runs come down in the bay next to the panel. Perhaps its blocked above the panel. Move the panel over to the next stud bay if you can. This is a barn / shop and it's for the in-laws maybe that should be considered. I don't see the urgency to rush the job. I would start over and take it as a residential learning experience. Redo the work properly.


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

As others have said, I've seen a lot worse

But also have seen jobs were the work was oh so pretty and neat

but was riddled with code violations

I like to do neat work but am not gonna freak out about which stud bay romexes come down, without a doubt there was a reason:smile:


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Your so correct about that. Form follows function.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I find lots of messed up older residential services. I'm sure you have too. The image that was posted looks better than most. I did like how he took the time to number his branch circuits. If I had to come behind to do work on this panel it would be logical and easy to figure out "whats what" and "who goes where". To me that is important.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

For the most part the branch circuits come in odd and even and don't cross over the top of the panel. That's a plus.


----------



## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

this is what i was thinking of. square d qwik grip


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Well I'll be.. Never saw such an animal. Built in slam and go. Are you sure this is not a Photo Shop makeover? Honestly I have never come across a panel like this. I haven't been doing much residential work until recently. I will have to check out the Quick Grip. Looks like a time saver.


----------

