# what wire is common



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> after reading this http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/re-marking-white-220v-branch-circuit-11859/re-marking-white-220v-branch-circuit-11859/ I wanted to get other peoples opinion on what wire they use for constant power when running a switch loop. I use the white as a constant myself and I do IDENTIFY it as a constant hot. reason why I do this. so that when someone tests the circuit they will have 120v to ground just in case the switch is in the off position


You must use the white as the constant hot. It may not be used as the return. Article 200.7(C)(2)



> 200.7(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch *but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.* In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

.......


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You must use the white as the constant hot. It may not be used as the return. Article 200.7(C)(2)


Ahhhh... I didn;t read far enough...thanks dennis.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Ahhhh... I didn;t read far enough...thanks dennis.


Don't forget to hit the thanks button.. I am collecting them. :laughing:


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## billsnuff (Dec 29, 2007)

Down on white, Back on black............atta boy, dennis


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## professor poptart (Mar 2, 2010)

I disagree with your interpretation of this article. I also use white for the supply, but 200.7 (C) (2) states that WHERE (interpreted as WHEN) the white wire is used as supply, it shall be properly identified. This article does not require the white to be a supply.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

professor poptart said:


> I disagree with your interpretation of this article. I also use white for the supply, but 200.7 (C) (2) states that WHERE (interpreted as WHEN) the white wire is used as supply, it shall be properly identified. This article does not require the white to be a supply.


 
Don't read 200.7(C)(2) as a stand-alone paragraph..... read the (C) part as well:



> (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
> 
> (2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


Taking out all the extraneous stuff, you're left with:

...The use of insulation that is white ... for other than a grounded conductor .........shall be permitted only ... Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for ... switch loops and the conductor with white... insulation... is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet...


In short, you are permitted to use the white as an ungrounded conductor if you use it to supply the switch, but not as a return.


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## professor poptart (Mar 2, 2010)

Which wire do you consider the supply to a four-way switch?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

It's talking about switch loops, not travelers.


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## professor poptart (Mar 2, 2010)

I don't have my code book here. Is there a seperate exception which applies to travelers? Or are you saying that you cannot use white as a traveler?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

professor poptart said:


> I don't have my code book here. Is there a seperate exception which applies to travelers? Or are you saying that you cannot use white as a traveler?


The white may be use as a traveller. Just not as a return to the light. Re-read the article I posted above.. ken also posted it


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You must use the white as the constant hot. It may not be used as the return. Article 200.7(C)(2)


Is that article saying that the white HAS to be used? Or IF it is used it must be permanently marked to indicate that it IS...used...as a hot.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Is that article saying that the white HAS to be used? Or IF it is used it must be permanently marked to indicate that it IS...used...as a hot.


 
It says that IF you use it in a switch loop, it must supply the switch. It doesn't say you HAVE to use it in a switch loop. Some people get so confused by this Section they end up using 14-3 just so they have a black & red to work with.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

professor poptart said:


> I disagree with your interpretation of this article. I also use white for the supply, but 200.7 (C) (2) states that WHERE (interpreted as WHEN) the white wire is used as supply, it shall be properly identified. This article does not require the white to be a supply.


That is the way I read it as well. In the quote of that article, Dennis's first sentence is not actually a full sentence; it doesn't really make a statement. I am not saying he is wrong but I think I know what I read too. However, we are all here to learn. And it really does not say that it can't be used as a return.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> That is the way I read it as well. In the quote of that article, Dennis's first sentence is not actually a full sentence; it doesn't really make a statement. I am not saying he is wrong but I think I know what I read too. However, we are all here to learn. And it really does not say that it can't be used as a return.


Yes, it does. Read the RED highlighting.


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## professor poptart (Mar 2, 2010)

I don't have my code book with me. The seems to be stating where it is allowed to use a white as an ungrounded conductor. A traveler is certainly an ungrounded conductor but I don't see any reference to travelers in any of the posted portions of the article.
What is confusing me is the posted reference to the 3 and 4 way switches.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yes, it does. Read the RED highlighting.


I have READ the RED and what you glean from the statement may be correct, but to me, the way it reads is not saying that.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't know if the original poster of the statement from the code wrote it verbatim, or not. But if everybody here agrees that he is correct, I can go along. However the meat of the code section should deal with the fact that if you have a cable assembly, and in that assembly a white or grey insulated conductor is used in a switch loop, the white conductor must be used as the constant hot conductor...AND, it must be re-identified as the HOT conductor. Am I wrong...AGAIN?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> I have READ the RED and what you glean from the statement may be correct, but to me, the way it reads is not saying that.


Well, put your glasses on and read it again. If you still can;t understand it, I think you need to learn to read.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Well, put your glasses on and read it again. If you still can;t understand it, I think you need to learn to read.


I can only say that I READ very well. There is a difference between reading something and actually understanding what it says. You cannot read something into it that you want to read into it. You can only read the words; and those words in the statement, and even in RED, do not say what you are saying. By the way, how did you know that I wear glasses?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, once again I will break it down:

*....The use of insulation that is white ... for other than a grounded conductor ... shall be permitted only ... Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor... and the conductor with white ... insulation... is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet....*


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ProfPoptart, Are you still listening?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> OK, once again I will break it down:
> 
> *....The use of insulation that is white ... for other than a grounded conductor ... shall be permitted only ... Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor... and the conductor with white ... insulation... is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet....*


Your breakdown is saying that the only instance in which you could use a white wire for a ungrounded conductor is in a switch loop. I can see that. But the original statement did NOT say that it couldn't be used as a return. I am not saying that it can be; I'm saying that is wasn't in Alwon's post. He may have misquoted or left out some punctuation, or something. But we'll get to the bottom of this. By the way, you still have to re-identify the white...RIGHT?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Your breakdown is saying that the only instance in which you could use a white wire for a ungrounded conductor is in a switch loop. I can see that. But the original statement did NOT say that it couldn't be used as a return. I am not saying that it can be; I'm saying that is wasn't in Alwon's post. He may have misquoted or left out some punctuation, or something. But we'll get to the bottom of this. By the way, you still have to re-identify the white...RIGHT?


 
No. My breakdown only applies to those instances when you use a white as a hot in a switch loop. There are other instances where you can do so, but they are not the issue here so they have been omitted.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No. My breakdown only applies to those instances when you use a white as a hot in a switch loop. There are other instances where you can do so, but they are not the issue here so they have been omitted.


I am not trying to be argumentative. I hope you guys understand that. I have always found that when a person doesn't totally understand something that a few others have told them, they sometimes shy away from possible ridicule and give up asking. I try not to be that way. I am interested in the exact answer, and I appreciate your efforts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I am not trying to be argumentative. I hope you guys understand that. I have always found that when a person doesn't totally understand something that a few others have told them, they sometimes shy away from possible ridicule and give up asking. I try not to be that way. I am interested in the exact answer, and I appreciate your efforts.


 
I've gotten as exact as I can.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I've gotten as exact as I can.


Exactly...Thanks.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

480sparky said:


> No. My breakdown only applies to those instances when you use a white as a hot in a switch loop. There are other instances where you can do so, but they are not the issue here so they have been omitted.


The other instances? Go ahead, Go ahead and break it down!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> But the original statement did NOT say that it couldn't be used as a return. I am not saying that it can be; I'm saying that is wasn't in Alwon's post. He may have misquoted or left out some punctuation, or something. But we'll get to the bottom of this. By the way, you still have to re-identify the white...RIGHT?


Alwon quote is verbatim from the cd. I left out other sections but I cannot see why this section is hard for you to understand. It is quite clear to me.



> *200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
> (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C):
> (1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
> (2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> The other instances? Go ahead, Go ahead and break it down!


 


> *(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.* The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
> (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
> ................
> (3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
> _FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working on existing systems_.


Hope you get a nice stiffy over it.


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## professor poptart (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Now that I have read the entire article, I agree. I was wrong with my initial post. By the way, I don't do much Residential work, but I will be installing some nw sighting circuits in my plant's admin building using mc cable. I'll make sure to use the white as the switch supply and the black as a return.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Don't forget to hit the thanks button.. I am collecting them. :laughing:


But are you giving them out yourself


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

You romex boys are crazy with using your white wires as hots and what nots...:jester:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

AFAIK, electricity has no idea what color wire it's in.


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