# 3 wire feed to out building



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Is it actually a separate service or is it a feeder from the house?

Pete


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Feed from house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Looks like they recycled an old panel.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

RGH, If it meets the exceptions in 250.32(B)(1) you should be good to go.

"The N run with the supply to the bldg. can serve as the ground fault path if ALL the following continue to be met."

1. An EGC is not run.
2. There are no continuous metal. paths bonded to the grounding system in each bldg.
3. GFCI protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder.

Is there a main bonding jumper in there?

We know you are in the field and we are scrambling, except for Peter.:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It was common practice up to a few code cycles ago RG

why is and 'ol dog like you concerned?

~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Bonding screw in place. No gfic protection. To home inspectors 1 other sparky viewed this mess home being sold I am pricing corrections I felt minor correction leave fed PAC alone. Not the method I would of used there, but this is the way she lays..... Thanks


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

What are you asked to do RG?

~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Go thru home inspectors reports price repairs. Other spark wants to replace panel. I felt it was ok aside from knock outs of minor issues.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's Grandfathered, you win RG :thumbsup:~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks you guys pardon the spelling fat old fingers on tiny phone lol


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

It's been awhile. But are those federals? If so I'm gettin all excited about em.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> Looks like they recycled an old panel.


 yes I think so too not a bad job seen way worst I think their methods thru the inspectors . Sans 4th wire.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Yep old federal pacific ......run!


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## JMR147 (Dec 29, 2013)

There is no such thing as grandfathered in......lol. I believe it would be alot safer if this was wired as a sub panel. You have a ground rod but no ground wire back to main panel. I say that's a no no. Sell a new sub those stab locks look like a problem Waiting to happen. Good luck


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Installations are viewed as compliant as to cycle of Nec at that time not now. This thread was for an exception to 250 re: methods. As This method was common 20 years ago that cycle applies till panel is replaced, or same methods can be used in new install if all criteria is meet under exceptions.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

JMR147 said:


> > There is no such thing as grandfathered in......lol.
> 
> 
> Ok, so we get a mandatory windfall of work every three years then
> ...


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

...........


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RGH said:


> View attachment 35545
> this panel is 3 wire feed . There is a rod at location with 6awg attached, in field now per 230 this is ok I believe . No metal between buildings plastic gas line....Nec 2011 cycle in this local, this is viewed as separate service correct. Advise thanks . This out building is a garage.


One problem though, the panel isn't balanced. There's 5 circuits on one leg and 3 on the other.


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## JMR147 (Dec 29, 2013)

I would run a ground from main panel then install a sub panel properly. Neutral buss/Grounding buss independent of each other.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

JMR147 said:


> I would run a ground from main panel then install a sub panel properly. Neutral buss/Grounding buss independent of each other.


Good for you when you can sell it. Have you ever been in a situation where you know the seller and realtor who has future work, and need to just get the home inspection issues dealt with without a lot of extra expense? Albeit, at the same time, school a home inspector?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> One problem though, the panel isn't balanced. There's 5 circuits on one leg and 3 on the other.


What are really a Home Inspector ?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Sound advice from 3xdad here. I fixed several minor issues signed off on reports and recommend replacing this panel in future. Now there are 2 lights and 1 receptacle feed from it. All other circuits dead ended. All parties happy maybe a future customer. Swipe/sign/go home


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RGH said:


> Yep old federal pacific ......run!


when i did ag industrial work in nor cal i'd come across old federals every now and then. we'd change out a panel and i'd stash all the breakers on my truck for the next cheap rich farmer that didnt want a panel change. my boss would charge them $65 for a single 20. :laughing:


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

RGH said:


> this panel is 3 wire feed . There is a rod at location with 6awg attached, in field now per 230 this is ok I believe . No metal between buildings plastic gas line....Nec 2011 cycle in this local, this is viewed as separate service correct. Advise thanks . This out building is a garage.


I cannot tell what is going on with the yellow wires looks like its feeding other breakers but again I'm looking at it with my phone


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

IslandGuy said:


> One problem though, the panel isn't balanced. There's 5 circuits on one leg and 3 on the other.


The panel may be balanced, it's impossible to tell. The amount of breakers/circuits are not what determine if a panel is balanced or not, the load on those circuits is what we need. I don't care if there is 20 on one phase and 12 on the other.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

ampman said:


> I cannot tell what is going on with the yellow wires looks like its feeding other breakers but again I'm looking at it with my phone


Looks to me like a split bus panel.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Exactly:thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

The 3 wire doesn't concern me as much as the FPE:whistling2:

3 wire was allowed up until recently as long as no water pipes or cable /phone were present.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

meadow said:


> The 3 wire doesn't concern me as much as the FPE:whistling2:
> 
> 3 wire was allowed up until recently as long as no water pipes or cable /phone were present.


Yeah, no different than a main service or 5 customers on the secondary of a POCO transformer. Except POCO has everyone interconnected in most cases with other utilities. :ninja:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> What are really a Home Inspector ?


Are you even an electrician?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

8V71 said:


> Yeah, no different than a main service or 5 customers on the secondary of a POCO transformer. Except POCO has everyone interconnected in most cases with other utilities. :ninja:


:laughing: POCOs love the pipes and telco shields they can mooch off of.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Mshow1323 said:


> The panel may be balanced, it's impossible to tell. The amount of breakers/circuits are not what determine if a panel is balanced or not, the load on those circuits is what we need. I don't care if there is 20 on one phase and 12 on the other.


I can't see the loads from here, I can only see the breakers. Unbalanced.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

meadow said:


> :laughing: POCOs love the pipes and telco shields they can mooch off of.


The POCO here (ConEdison) is having major problems with their secondary network. After years of treating neutrals like bastard redheaded stepchildren, and with much of their network underground, there are low voltage and stray voltage problems everywhere.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

IslandGuy said:


> I can't see the loads from here, I can only see the breakers. Unbalanced.



The reason you can't see or calculate the loads is precisely the reason you can't assume an imbalance...


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Fwiw: this is a split buss panel. With that in mind Breaker in 6/8 position feeds split buss......and again most loads have been disconnected .


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