# LAY OFF Limitations



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> this is still America


Yeah and therefore you can be laid off, now in a socialist state or with the federal government it may be different.




> *Good , because you get paid twice as much* . Or bad because we're union and we need to give the customer value and a reason to choose us again


Yeah, *no mention of the EC losing money*, going out of business and all the boys are out of a job.



> a lay off takes money away form taxpayers funds(YES,I know it's from my contributions)


UMMMM from the EC payments/contributions, unless you have an Union plan.



> What would you do to improve our union?


Studies have shown the union improves when the slackers and union lawyers are let go.

1. While there are bad bosses weren't most of the bosses brothers at one time?
2. Good men in good times are seldom let go, what employer lays off a good worker.
3. I know on some big jobs quality may slack but if the workers are working as a group to do quality work, it is next to impossible for a EC to lay them all off.
4. I have heard this complaint before and while I do not know you and you may be the best ship in the fleet???????????????Look in the mirror.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

*lay off limitations*

This is a delicate topic I know .What I'm asking is for you to look past the obvious. Are we happy with and "OLD BOY" ways or could we permanently lay off bad eggs so contractors never come across them again and keep their profits high. 

You we're very quick to point the finger at me , I am currently employed and have been . I'm not saying help me. But I have seen EC's lay people off for asking for a pipe bender when told to bend pipe. This does happen . EC's don't like bad news .Poop is not supposed to roll uphill.
But it is what it is my friend . If I tell you on my first day at a job theres no material and no tools to do what you asked ,is that my fault? NO
I can not eat flex and S*** a coupling. And if you think I should .it's a problem.

What is a better solution than simply laying people off? The new guy from the hall isn't going to bring materials someone forgot to order.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I can only speak for the area I work in, around here good electricians and a VALUABLE COMMIDITY. No EC lays off a good electrician unless times are tough and thankfully we have not hit that point.

Do marginally decent guys get laid you bet, sometimes for personality conflicts, other times they are whiners, sometime the boss is a royal PRI*K. But hey this is the real world and we are all big boys.

As for signaling you out, you mentioned two issues none of which involved the EC dollars. Concern for the ECs bottom line will make a lay off less likely I WOULD THINK. 



> *Good , because you get paid twice as much* . Or bad because we're union and we need to give the customer value and a reason to choose us again.


 


> *Good , because you get paid twice as much*


Statements like this is what makes open shop owners cringe at the thought of going union



> But it is what it is my friend . If I tell you on my first day at a job theres no material and no tools to do what you asked ,is that my fault? NO


To me that sounds like a EC that ain't long for the market, or can handle lose wages, and if someone got the axe for this it should be the foreman. But did you get paid for the day?


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

Sir you are taking what I said out of context and twisting it just like the people I'm refering to . You will have to think to understand what is being said . Since you seem unable, Ill spell it out for you apprentice style.


When I said "GOOD , more re-work more money " This is what a NON-boat rocking, kool aid drinking JW will say instead of speaking up.
You see you will have to put yourself in someone elses position mentally, which requires empathy and brotherhood.

When that JW accepts the montra "Whatever my forman says is right"
the Customer loses out and then the EC loses out in future work and the union loses it's reputation. This is happening in the refineries where my union struggles to regain market share. RE Work is BAD ,those who speak up are getting the ax, do you get it now?

You sound like a shoppee to me. Don't forget your union negotiated your wage whether your union or not. A fact.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You said



> you can look at re work 2 ways. Good , because you get paid twice as much . Or bad because we're union and we need to give the customer value and a reason to choose us again


 
You did not clarify your position on your standing. So because you are not clear in your writings I am a bad guy?



> RE Work is BAD ,those who speak up are getting the ax, do you get it now?


So top quality electricians are losing their jobs? But your working?


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

When work is bad and you have several hundred men on the books, contractors do tend to become pricks.

Bottom line, you get paid by the hour, if the contracter won't supply the material, what can you do?

I couldnt wait to get away from an outfit like that.


In my experience it's been the contractor fault for the most part when we lose market shares


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

daddymack said:


> When work is bad and you have several hundred men on the books, contractors do tend to become pricks.


Contractors or their foreman are under immense pressures and unfortunately sometimes theses come out as major negatives like being pri*ks, other times they are just pri*ks by nature. Slow times do allow contractors to rid themselves of all but the best workers. Sometimes this means the Kiss Arses keep their jobs, while the guy that legitimatly complained about lousy tools or lack of material are let go.



> Bottom line, you get paid by the hour, if the contractor won't supply the material, what can you do?


Sit and wait, maybe the guy that complained about no material said it to the wrong guy and getting the responsible party in trouble. The responsible party instead of taking his knocks like a man seeks revenge and lets someone go.



> I couldn't wait to get away from an outfit like that.


In tough times with men on the bench it is tough to quit a job




> In my experience it's been the contractor fault for the most part when we lose market shares


I think this goes hand in hand from my expierence. The local was slow to accept new members, rough on small contractors and the big bucks for the majority of union firms was in the tunnels ignoring the bread and butter commercial work, permitting open shop ECs to walk and take a market share that was not their's previously.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

Good electrician or not, I think we all know those guys who don't know when to zip it. They are never happy and always find something to gripe about.

I was doing a job a few years ago and had to have my guys install FA devices on unfinished walls and in some cases just studs. It meant to we would have to go back and remove some but we had a deadline we had to meet. Let the GC eat the cost. No one likes going back and doing stuff again especially when it could have been avoided. But sometimes you just have to do what your told. It annoys the foreman too.



> Sometimes this means the Kiss Arses keep their jobs, while the guy that legitimatly complained about lousy tools or lack of material are let go.


The contracter or the Foremans are not the ones busting the handles on the bandsaws or losing the cutters for a KO set. You can look around a jobsite and find 4 sq boxes of wirenuts, nuts and bolts and washers all over the place. People just walk off and leave them. Honestly, electricians are pretty bad with wasting material and I have been on plenty of jobs where tools walk off as well.

So some of that 'legitimate' complaining should be aimed at ones fellows electricians. I know I would get tired of someone complaining about no material if I ordered plenty, but, it's being wasted or lack of tools if I ordered 20 drills and now we have 8.

I'd probably want them laid off or off my job too.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Telling the foreman you don't have material is a necessity even if he already ordered it. The foreman should go find the guy or guys who hoard it all and fire them. They are why the job is not getting done and it's the foremans job to deal with them and their hoarding asses!


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

The OP is a problem with both open and union shops, one could say it is the nature of construction. I am 53 working in the field for the first time in 14 years, previously was a foreman, general foreman and superintendent then retired early. I love this work and went back into the field. My biggest worries were that I would be too slow and couldn't keep up. What I have seen recently being on the other side; 1 out of ten guys compliane non-stop, don't stay in their work area, hoar tools and material, when they look busy their production is about 40% of everyone else, question authortiy, talk bad about supervision and on every now and again screw things up that even a trunk slammer wouldn't do. The job is almost over been there from the beginning and in the final four finishing up. I guess being productive, keeping your mouth shut and not fighting with the boss keeps you on until the end.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The job is almost over been there from the beginning and in the final four finishing up. I guess being productive, keeping your mouth shut and not fighting with the boss keeps you on until the end.


Often refered to as a team player. Now if the coach is a jerk this can complicate things. most often the way things work


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

surfbh said:


> Telling the foreman you don't have material is a necessity even if he already ordered it. The foreman should go find the guy or guys who hoard it all and fire them. They are why the job is not getting done and it's the foremans job to deal with them and their hoarding asses!


 
Then let the foreman deal with it how he/she see fit. Sure they can blame the lack of productivity on the manpower but, it will catch up with them.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

*Lay Off Limitations*

Thre are some very interesting comments here.

Still I'm asking for opinions/answers to question
should contractors be forced to limit the amount of lay offs because of the tax payer burden and give more voice to those who speak up about safety and production for the good of the union.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

daddymack said:


> Then let the foreman deal with it how he/she see fit. Sure they can blame the lack of productivity on the manpower but, it will catch up with them.


The foremen around here deal with it by yelling at you and making everyone job scared. When people are job scared, safety goes out the window and people get hurt. I've been on several jobs where the foreman is the dumbest (by far) JW there. Reason is that nobody worth a crap wants the headaches for a measly 10% of an already low wage.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

Just some more ideas to the mix here

Our local has 7500 members with 300 on book 1 at any time during the year .
My math says that's 4% unemployment in our local. However 300 JW's waiting is alot when you consider here layoffs come to a job about 10 at a time. So there is always more than enough JW's for EC"s to pick through. Truly ,some are not worthy of JW status even in raw skill or knowledge> When you put a bad attitude with low skill and you have to pay full price ,AS A contractor, I would be upset.

IF there were lay off limitations, and they worked to create a more stable and safe work place, would members be willing to accept that some 
"BAD APPLES" should be kicked out of the union permanently or sent back through apprenticeship, that members choice.?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

blackhat 321 said:


> Thre are some very interesting comments here.
> 
> Tax payer burden and give more voice to those who speak up about safety and production for the good of the union.


THERE IS NO TAX BURDEN, the contractors have unemployment insurance, IT FALLs ON US. So I say lay the slackers off.

http://www.vec.virginia.gov/vecportal/about_vec.cfm#about_UI


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

> The foremen around here deal with it by yelling at you and making everyone job scared. When people are job scared, safety goes out the window and people get hurt. I've been on several jobs where the foreman is the dumbest (by far) JW there. Reason is that nobody worth a crap wants the headaches for a measly 10% of an already low wage.


I was working at some factory one time and I met some girl working there who was crying uncontrollably because of a toothache. Her boss would not let her leave work. I went and got her some asparin and thanked god I was union because I no I don't have to take that type of crap.

I you could, you should leave that job. Hit the road. I know thats not always possible, but start trying to get yourself out of that situation if it's making you unhappy.



> Our local has 7500 members with 300 on book 1 at any time during the year .
> My math says that's 4% unemployment in our local. However 300 JW's waiting is alot when you consider here layoffs come to a job about 10 at a time.


I've felt for a long time we screwed ourselves over by taking in too many people. The purpose of the union I thought was to EC from exploiting the workers with threats etc, but weve allowed that to happen anyway because of so many out of work members.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

BRIAN JOHN

Actually in California , there is an argument to be made about a detremental affect to to the public since the interest on those funds would be at a lower return since the principal was lowered . It is slight
but it's nice to know you would lay someone off who speaks up about safety. All comments are welcome. Oh , the technical information was given to me by a tax attorney and a seperate CPA.


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

As an active union member who attends general and unit meetings and has also had the privlege to serve as recording secretatry for my district, I want people here to know this is YOUR union. With membership and IO approval almost anything can happen for the workers. Change can occur .
Good or bad it's up to members . But if you Fu****s don't vote or show up to meetings like your supposed to, it's not going to go your way.

GO TO MEETINGS, IT's THE ONLY WAY.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Black, yeah I am a real Pri*k, read all my post regarding workers, as an owner I'm pretty much an employee backer. BUT I have no room for whiners, they give me a headache.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

*Almost A Seperate Thread:*

Brian John, 

I just want to thank you for 'keeping it real.'

Your posts have got the three P's; prolific, profound, and pertinent.

If it weren't for us slack-jawed yokel hillbilly einsteins, many a contractor could not make a profitable installation.

Additionally, if it weren't for the hall trash, we could negotiate a higher package, because we would be collectively worth alot more without them weighing us down! If having some turd from the hall walk laps around the job isn't welfare... I don't know what is???


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

In my local, you are placed into jobs per your position on the book (as in most locals). That means the slugs will eventually be hired by somebody. Should an EC be required to continue to employ a JIW that is not up to snuff? No. You are suggesting that they must. Bad move. The Soviets tried that for a long time. I think they called is Socialism but was closer to Communism. I don;t think it worked very well.



> IF there were lay off limitations, and they worked to create a more stable and safe work place, would members be willing to accept that some
> "BAD APPLES" should be kicked out of the union permanently or sent back through apprenticeship, that members choice.?


It is up to the individual to assure he is employable. Some folks just aren't employable.

as to kicking out members of the union;

Who is to judge who remains? Being a member of a union is not only a right, in many states it is a legal requirement to be employed by a union employer. If you remove members after they have qualified to become a member of the union, you will cause a huge number of lawsuits against the union. Expenses not needed to incur. Just as with Darwins theory, the strong will survive. The weak will find their own level whether it is in the union as a tradesman or at Micky D's asking if the customer wants fries with their meal. When you start deciding who is a good JIW and who isn't, how do you judge? There are highs and lows in all classifications so where do you set the limit. As in most things of this matter, the market will present the answer. If a person in unemployable, they will eventually be forced out of the trade. If they are continued to be employed, then apparenlty some EC finds enough value in them to continue to employ them.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

if union members realized that contractors aren't the enemy, things would be a lot better...

if union leadership didn't reap benefits by having contractors and labor at odds, things would be a lot better...

if union contractors were actually able to call the hall and always be sent well trained, competent help (which is what they are paying), things would be better....


are their prick contractors out there? you bet...but how many started out idealistic and became incredibly jaded by dealing with well paid men who don't produce?


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

> oldman;37208]if union members realized that contractors aren't the enemy, things would be a lot better...


I do and to some extent, so does our local. We even have a not strike clause in our contract because of this belief.



> if union leadership didn't reap benefits by having contractors and labor at odds, things would be a lot better...


Uh, ya lost me there. Not sure how that benefits union leadership.



> if union contractors were actually able to call the hall and always be sent well trained, competent help (which is what they are paying), things would be better....


Like I said before, that is why you cannot limit lay-offs. If a person cannot maintain employment, they will move on to greener pastures. It is very difficult to make a list of what defines well trained and competent help. I can do many things others cannot do but that does not mean they are untrained not incompetent. It merely means I am better. It is tough to draw a line and say anybody below this line is a slug but even the slugs provide a service at times.




> are their prick contractors out there? you bet...but how many started out idealistic and became incredibly jaded by dealing with well paid men who don't produce?


it is the contractors fault for not laying off those that do not produce.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

nap said:


> it is the contractors fault for not laying off those that do not produce.


nap, you sound like you are in a progressive local...not all locals think that way....many will bury a contractor who fires too many slugs...

as for the line to determine a slug from a non-slug? very simple...if i'm paying you $85/hr total package, I need you to produce $150/hr revenue for me...this is the line....that is under the assumption that I didn't screw up the bid...but in reality, if NECA labor units or RS means say that you should take X hours to perform a task, barring some extreme circumstances, you should be under those hours....

as for union leaders....the more rancor there is between contractors and labor, the more money they can make...mostly by means of intimidation and extortion that would not be possible if contractors and labor were on the same team...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In our local they have come a long way towards trying to mend fences and foster a good working environment for both the union members and the contractors. Through some very open minded union leadership they are changing for the better. 

We need each other.

I did run into an electrician that had once been one of the WORST apprentices I ever had, smart could do the job BUT bitched the whole time. He told be he was thinking of suing the local as they could not get him a job he was WORTHY of in one year he had 32 W-2's.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

brian john said:


> I did run into an electrician that had once been one of the WORST apprentices I ever had, smart could do the job BUT bitched the whole time. He told be he was thinking of suing the local as they could not get him a job he was WORTHY of in one year he had 32 W-2's.


Wow, that averages just a bit over 1 1/2 weeks per contractor.

gotta love it!!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nap:

I did not think that was possible. One of my employees now retired worked at the hall for a long time told me while this was unusual it did occur.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

brian john said:


> nap:
> 
> I did not think that was possible. One of my employees now retired worked at the hall for a long time told me while this was unusual it did occur.


the guy didn't have time to see if the job was "worthy" of him or not in that time.

Like I said before, some guys just are not employable and just as in Darwins theory, natural selection will cull the herd.


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