# 48in T8 to LED



## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

I have a shutdown starting and will be going through all the lights in our wet processing area. They are all Phillips TLD 36W/840 which put out about 3200 lumens at 4000K. I'm honestly not sure what they pay for them. Is there an LED equivalent of decent quality for a decent price? Or should I just stick with what I have. Doing some searching and I'm not sure if there are. Plus internet isn't great lol


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Call a supply house. They'll send a salesperson over with several different styles for the different areas of your plant. 

For a job of this scale, i highly recommend getting either a lighting company to come in and do the job or having a Distributor (SH) supply all your materials while you guys provide the inhouse labor. 

You trying to order stuff off the internet has room for lots of error and headaches.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Depending on what you are processing. If its food processing then cost savings is secondary compared to the removal of glass above a processing area. 

Less maintenance and lower running cost are sometimes just a added bonus.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Direct replacement lamps by any company. I’ve used a lot of Topaz, Sylvania, Phillips and RAB. No issues. Works with existing ballast. Same light with no light loss over time and longer life at half the wattage of fluorescent (14 vs 32). 

They make ballast bypass lamps also but in high volume jobs the extra labor would be prohibitive. Also ballast bypass lamps do not light up for the full length because the driver components. 


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

VELOCI3 said:


> Direct replacement lamps by any company. I’ve used a lot of Topaz, Sylvania, Phillips and RAB. No issues. Works with existing ballast. Same light with no light loss over time and longer life at half the wattage of fluorescent (14 vs 32).
> 
> They make ballast bypass lamps also but in high volume jobs the extra labor would be prohibitive. Also ballast bypass lamps do not light up for the full length because the driver components.
> 
> ...


Ever used the ESPEN lamps? They're pretty good.


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

I've done some retrofits before with bulbs that completely bypass the ballast. I feel like they were close in brightness but on paper a lot of the LEDs I'm looking at aren't more than 2000 lumens versus 3200 for the flourescents.


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

gpop said:


> Depending on what you are processing. If its food processing then cost savings is secondary compared to the removal of glass above a processing area.


Yes very true dropping a tube would be a disaster


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

As someone said above the LED tubes are plastic so no worries about broken glass. I did not know T8 lamps come in a 36 watt. Are they special order? They must be expensive. Keep in mind if the existing fixtures are old the plug and play tubes might not be the way to go.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Mbit said:


> Yes very true dropping a tube would be a disaster



We couldn't prove on paper the cost savings of leds even when labor was factored in. Then we mentioned they were plastic which made it a safety improvement. 
Still can not work out how a lighting contractor sold us the lights installed cheaper then we could buy the light, rent a lift and have our guys install them at zero labor cost.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

My 2¢.

Ballast bypass are the way to go. Direct replacement are often only approved with the ballasts they've been tested with and you still have the liability of the ballast. Another annoying thing I found with direct replacement is any variation of the voltage from the ballast shows up in the light output of the individual tubes. It IS noticeable.

As far as volume, working off a 6-10'' ladder I can retrofit 5-6 fixtures per hour once I am set up with the few tools and wire connectors I need in the pockets of my coveralls. This would be with fixtures not scattered all over the place and unimpeded access. Keep a garbage can within ballast tossing distance so you don't make any un-necessary trips up and down the ladder. Stick a half dozen retrofit labels by the corner to the top of your ladder the first time up.With simple fixtures such as strip lighting that can be reached standing at ground level sometimes I can do 8-9 fixtures per hour.

Oh, and if you are ripping out magnetic ballasts, empty the garbage can often......


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

gpop said:


> We couldn't prove on paper the cost savings of leds even when labor was factored in. Then we mentioned they were plastic which made it a safety improvement.
> Still can not work out how a lighting contractor sold us the lights installed cheaper then we could buy the light, rent a lift and have our guys install them at zero labor cost.


Energy costs are a big factor, but often the labor for typical future maintenance of fluorescent is not taken into account. Once a ballast is removed the fixture becomes maintenance free for the life of the tubes. When they fail, anyone can change a lightbulb.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> Energy costs are a big factor, but often the labor for typical future maintenance of fluorescent is not taken into account. Once a ballast is removed the fixture becomes maintenance free for the life of the tubes. When they fail, anyone can change a lightbulb.


Still have to factor in 3 year return on investment. New led bulb/panel/fitting cost to buy and install minus cost to maintain for 3 years. 
Based on 5 year ROI a led upgrade would win every time but 3 years is difficult to work on paper. 

Led's in cold room/freezers had a 12 month ROI as tubes hated to lamp in the cold and cost 5 times more than standard t8 tubes.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

As scaby as it sounds, even faster is to leave the ballast in the fixture. Cut the wires close to the ballast so there is no misunderstanding that the ballast is still in use.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

MHElectric said:


> Ever used the ESPEN lamps? They're pretty good.


Not yet


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

gpop said:


> Still have to factor in 3 year return on investment. New led bulb/panel/fitting cost to buy and install minus cost to maintain for 3 years.
> Based on 5 year ROI a led upgrade would win every time but 3 years is difficult to work on paper.
> 
> Led's in cold room/freezers had a 12 month ROI as tubes hated to lamp in the cold and cost 5 times more than standard t8 tubes.


Changing to an LED lamp:
32 watt - 14 watt = 18 watt savings
18 watts x 12 hrs /1000 = .216 KWh 
@ 15c/KWh 
.216 x .15 = $0.0234 savings per day
0.0234 x 252 work days per year

$5.90 savings per retrofitted bulb 


Insert your utility KWh cost. It’s 20c here in NY


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm no rocker scientist, but I've done a few of these jobs. Here's my 2cents:

Bypassing the ballast is the way to go. The ballast compatible lamps fail as soon as the ballast goes out. Usually before the life of the lamp, ESPECIALLY in existing buildings where the ballsts have already been working for years. Anyone who has spent time doing lighting maintenance knows ballsts crap the bed regularly.

If you are the inhouse maintenance electricians, you will move at a snails pace compared to a lighting company. They'll stick a crew on that job who will get in and get out.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

I agree, ballast free is the way to go. Faster to do that than to swap out a ballast. Electronic ballasts are going to have a much shorter life than your LED tubes. However, I have not been able to get plastic ballast free tubes here from my SH, glass only. If you can find plastic tubes, that would be by far the best option. Lose the diffuser on the fixture and it’ll be brighter already.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

The ballast by pass is a better way to go but as mentioned about a year ago on this topic you have to watch the skill set of the people maintaining the fixtures down the road. Even though you install the retrofit warning labels, someone is bound to put regular lamps in the fixture. I did a replacement job and there were several defective LED tubes. The maintenance guy just ordered a case of T8 lamps and tried to fix it.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> The ballast by pass is a better way to go but as mentioned about a year ago on this topic you have to watch the skill set of the people maintaining the fixtures down the road. Even though you install the retrofit warning labels, someone is bound to put regular lamps in the fixture. I did a replacement job and there were several defective LED tubes. The maintenance guy just ordered a case of T8 lamps and tried to fix it.


I tested what would happen in that scenario.

Nothing.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I tested what would happen in that scenario.
> 
> Nothing.


But it will not light after they buy a case of lamps from Grainger and then I hear about it. Like it is my fault their workers cannot read my labels.


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Mbit said:


> I have a shutdown starting and will be going through all the lights in our wet processing area. They are all Phillips TLD 36W/840 which put out about 3200 lumens at 4000K. I'm honestly not sure what they pay for them. Is there an LED equivalent of decent quality for a decent price? Or should I just stick with what I have. Doing some searching and I'm not sure if there are. Plus internet isn't great lol


Absolutely we have retrofitted about 500- 2x4 lay in florescent 25 watt 4000k fixtures with new 18 watt 4000 k LED lamps using asram electronic ballasts and for the last 4 year's they have been maintenance free and still Bright and they run 16hrs a day. Note** you can also get the direct wire lamps and eliminating the ballast all together. Here at the VA we are not allowed. But I do you those at home and they are great I have had my lamps here about 5 years


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Alty said:


> Absolutely we have retrofitted about 500- 2x4 lay in florescent 25 watt 4000k fixtures with new 18 watt 4000 k LED lamps using asram electronic ballasts and for the last 4 year's they have been maintenance free and still Bright and they run 16hrs a day. Note** you can also get the direct wire lamps and eliminating the ballast all together. Here at the VA we are not allowed. But I do you those at home and they are great I have had my lamps here about 5 years


We use phillips and GE


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

gpop said:


> Still have to factor in 3 year return on investment. New led bulb/panel/fitting cost to buy and install minus cost to maintain for 3 years.
> Based on 5 year ROI a led upgrade would win every time but 3 years is difficult to work on paper.
> 
> Led's in cold room/freezers had a 12 month ROI as tubes hated to lamp in the cold and cost 5 times more than standard t8 tubes.


 In my locale, ROI is much closer to 3 years, which takes us right back to energy costs.


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## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

Most (perhaps all) state health licensing divisions require plastic covers on the glass tubes in food processing areas for obvious safety concerns. If the fixtures do not have diffusers, plastic sleeves are required on the bare glass lamps. The sleeves cut the light output and start to yellow which cuts the light output even more. Plastic LED tubes do not require the safety sleeves in bare lamp fixtures, Additionally LEDs deliver the output lumens in a 120 degree downward beam angle (typical) as opposed to a florescent which outputs the light at 360 degrees. This is why LEDs seem brighter even though the rated lumens is lower than the replaced florescent.


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

rjniles said:


> Most (perhaps all) state health licensing divisions require plastic covers on the glass tubes in food processing areas for obvious safety concerns. If the fixtures do not have diffusers, plastic sleeves are required on the bare glass lamps. The sleeves cut the light output and start to yellow which cuts the light output even more. Plastic LED tubes do not require the safety sleeves in bare lamp fixtures, Additionally LEDs deliver the output lumens in a 120 degree downward beam angle (typical) as opposed to a florescent which outputs the light at 360 degrees. This is why LEDs seem brighter even though the rated lumens is lower than the replaced florescent.


We use the same fixtures the yellowing is from the lamp


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

VELOCI3 said:


> Direct replacement lamps by any company. I’ve used a lot of Topaz, Sylvania, Phillips and RAB. No issues. Works with existing ballast. Same light with no light loss over time and longer life at half the wattage of fluorescent (14 vs 32).
> 
> They make ballast bypass lamps also but in high volume jobs the extra labor would be prohibitive. Also ballast bypass lamps do not light up for the full length because the *driver component*s.
> 
> ...


Plus the lamp reps are telling me that the drivers fail long before the diodes do. So good luck on getting them to last 50,000 hours.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

I say: bypass the ballast. One less headache for the client. Who wants to be called back, like, three days later to replace a ballast on lights you just fixed? For me, not a good feeling.


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Quickservice said:


> Plus the lamp reps are telling me that the drivers fail long before the diodes do. So good luck on getting them to last 50,000 hours.


I agree that LED lamps with ballast is the way to go. I was showing that's other options that's has worked for me.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Alty said:


> I agree that LED lamps with ballast is the way to go. I was showing that's other options that's has worked for me.


Direct replacement LED still have a driver, it's just different from a bypass driver. Why retain the ballast as a liability?


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## Alty (Nov 29, 2020)

Alty said:


> I agree that LED lamps with ballast is the way to go. I was showing that's other options that's has worked for me.





Alty said:


> I agree that LED lamps with ballast is the way to go. I was showing that's other options that's has worked for me.


It is important to note* using an existing ballast is not recommend unless it is an electronic ballasts and fairly new. For Best results


joe-nwt said:


> Direct replacement LED still have a driver, it's just different from a bypass driver. Why retain the ballast as a liability?


Yes I am on board with that. Again I am just showing the options for those that are sceptic. As I also mentioned before I have had my direct wire lamps for over 5 years now with no issues.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Alty said:


> I agree that LED lamps with ballast is the way to go. I was showing that's other options that's has worked for me.


The LED tube has to rectify the power coming from the ballast anyway. Why convert it twice and waste energy? The bypass tubes are always more efficient than the ballast compatible tubes.

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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Can you use the plug and play type with T12 magnetic ballasts? Someone I know used the direct fit plug and play with older fixtures and after two years about half the fixtures / tubes went bad. We removed everything and installed flat panels.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

There are a few plug and play tubes out there that claim to work with magnetic ballasts. I would avoid them like the plague. 

Magnetic ballasts are energy hogs on their own.


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## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> The ballast by pass is a better way to go but as mentioned about a year ago on this topic you have to watch the skill set of the people maintaining the fixtures down the road. Even though you install the retrofit warning labels, someone is bound to put regular lamps in the fixture. I did a replacement job and there were several defective LED tubes. The maintenance guy just ordered a case of T8 lamps and tried to fix it.





joe-nwt said:


> I tested what would happen in that scenario.
> 
> Nothing.


Makes sense, the direct voltage isn't high enough to fire the tubes. Doesn't a ballast put out somewhere around 600V to the bulbs?


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Dark Knight said:


> I agree, ballast free is the way to go. Faster to do that than to swap out a ballast. Electronic ballasts are going to have a much shorter life than your LED tubes. However, I have not been able to get plastic ballast free tubes here from my SH, glass only. If you can find plastic tubes, that would be by far the best option. Lose the diffuser on the fixture and it’ll be brighter already.


LED48T8815W1800LRK50K from Saylite. I am pretty sure this is a plastic lamp that will work for food processing.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I take amp readings before & after retrofits. We've done massive buildings. T8's to LED's with the existing ballasts. Typical amp readings drop 40%. Utility meter demand also drops, saving the customer money in demand billing. But the demand meter savings isn't noticed immediately.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Spark Master said:


> I take amp readings before & after retrofits. We've done massive buildings. T8's to LED's with the existing ballasts. Typical amp readings drop 40%. Utility meter demand also drops, saving the customer money in demand billing. But the demand meter savings isn't noticed immediately.


Along with amperage readings I also take light meter readings. Some people save energy by reducing the foot candles which can leave the room darker than required.


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