# 2 wire and 3 wire secured together



## apprentice14 (May 5, 2011)

Could someone let me know where in the NEC it says that you may not secure 2 wire and 3 wire NM together?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A little more specific, please......2- and 3-wire _what_?


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## apprentice14 (May 5, 2011)

NM, sorry. I do 99.9% commercial and don't use romex too often.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The NEC doesn't say you can't.

But if you're extending an existing ungrounded circuit, you'll need to ground the extension.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You mean stapling??


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Hes not talking about an ungrounded circuit. Hes talking about 14/2 and 14/3 stacked. It would all come down to the listing of the staple, but of course remember 2 conductor cannot be stapled on edge.


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## apprentice14 (May 5, 2011)

That is correct, I am talking about stapling as well as running through bored holes. I have read article 334 as well as wiring methods and don't see anything but my boss insists.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

apprentice14 said:


> That is correct, I am talking about stapling as well as running through bored holes. I have read article 334 as well as wiring methods and don't see anything but my boss insists.


If the bored hole is to be fire stopped then derating applies. Keep you ccc count to under 9 and you will be ok in most places.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you won't find it in the nec. it varies by jurisdiction, sometimes by inspector.


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## apprentice14 (May 5, 2011)

You gotta love the unwritten rules!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

apprentice14 said:


> You gotta love the unwritten rules!


Derating through holes to be draft stopped is plainly spelled out in 334


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

You just have to use a staple rated for two cables. It shouldn't be a problem with only a total of 5 current carrying conductors.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wendon said:


> You just have to use a staple rated for two cables. It shouldn't be a problem with only a total of 5 current carrying conductors.


Nowhere does the nec spell out a limit on ccc's under a staple. But it is limited through a hole to be draftstopped


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nowhere does the nec spell out a limit on ccc's under a staple. But it is limited through a hole to be draftstopped


A standard ½" staple is not rated for two 12-2 NM's. The staple must be listed for what you're using it for.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wendon said:


> A standard ½" staple is not rated for two 12-2 NM's. The staple must be listed for what you're using it for.


Code reference, please.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wendon said:


> A standard ½" staple is not rated for two 12-2 NM's. The staple must be listed for what you're using it for.


I stand by my last statement.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I staple them together all the time. I'm violating the listing of the staple, but I'm over it.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

apprentice14 said:


> .... but my boss insists.



As long as he is signing the paycheck ~ he's correct! :thumbsup:


...but...you now know better.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

More than 3 current carrying conductors bundled together must be derated. The grounded (neutral) conductor of a 120v circuit is considered a current carrying conductor. Let's assume that the three wire in the OP example is a multiwire branch circuit so the neutral only carries the imbalance of the two ungrounded conductors and is not a current carrying conductor. So: we have four current carrying conductors bundled together and Table 310.15(B)(3)(a) says we need to calculate them at 80%. 110.14 tells us that we can use the 90 degree column of 310.15(B)(16) for derating so the math works out like this: 25 amps at 80 percent equals 20 amps on a number 14. BUT WAIT... 240.4(D) tells us that small conductors are limited in overcurrent protection so that #14 can only be protected with a 15 amp breaker.

There is no problem with a 14/2 and a 14/3 bundled or secured together.

Chris


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> code reference, please.


110.3 b


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wendon said:


> 110.3 b


Which goes nowhere.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

wendon said:


> 110.3 b


Give up, you will not win this argument.:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

wendon said:


> A standard ½" staple is not rated for two 12-2 NM's. The staple must be listed for what you're using it for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are going to need to post the specific manuf. instructions to use 110.3(B) as your supporting article.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Celtic said:


> You are going to need to post the specific manuf. instructions to use 110.3(B) as your supporting article.


Here you go:

http://www.brisconelectric.com/catalogPages/1_cableStaples.pdf

The SN 40 IB staple is listed for single NM cables

The SN 150 IB staple is listed for two NM cables

Chris


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

apprentice14 said:


> could someone let me know where in the nec it says that you may not secure 2 wire and 3 wire nm together?





executive said:


> here you go:
> 
> http://www.brisconelectric.com/catalogpages/1_cablestaples.pdf
> 
> ...


I do not see where it specifically limits the SN40 IB to one cable:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Executive said:


> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.brisconelectric.com/catalogPages/1_cableStaples.pdf
> 
> ...


That's nice. Now how about the instructions for the staples I use?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I do not see where it specifically limits the SN40 IB to one cable:


Thats because hes making it up...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Thats because hes making it up...



Could be....or I could be missing some fine print.



What combinations of cables could I fit under some tie wire or a ty-wrap?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Could be....or I could be missing some fine print.
> 
> What combinations of cables could I fit under some tie wire or a ty-wrap?


 If it's more than 24 inches then 9 ccc's


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Celtic said:


> I do not see where it specifically limits the SN40 IB to one cable:


Post the listing for the other staple as well. The staple you chose not to post the catalog listing for is specifically listed for two cables. Why would they list this staple differently (The SN150) if the other product (the SN40) did the same thing?



480sparky said:


> That's nice. Now how about the instructions for the staples I use?


I looked for UL listing of staples and found only Briscon as a listed product. It happens to be the brand my supply house carries. Gardner-Bender and King staples are not UL listed. I don't think you need "instructions". :laughing:



mcclary's electrical said:


> Thats because hes making it up...


I hope this is sarcasm. I would not waste anyone's time with fabricated posts. AHJs in this area look for a listed staple when NM is stacked with a maximum of two. When I go to the supply house Monday, I will take a picture of the boxes which better describe the listing of the two different staples I have commented on here. IIRC the box says: "For 1-14/2 or 14/3, 1- 12/2 or 12/3, or 1- 10/2 or 10/3." 

Chris


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If it's more than 24 inches then 9 ccc's


...w/o maintaining spacing...whatever that distance is?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I do not see where it specifically limits the SN40 IB to one cable:



I agree.... I don't see it either.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Executive said:


> ...........
> I looked for UL listing of staples and found only Briscon as a listed product. It happens to be the brand my supply house carries. Gardner-Bender and King staples are not UL listed. I don't think you need "instructions". :laughing:
> .......


Yes, instructions are needed. This is your call, and you need to back it up. Instructions for Briscon are not universal. They do not apply to _all _manufacturers. So until you provide instructions for the staples I use, you really can't use 110.3(B).


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Executive said:


> Post the listing for the other staple as well. The staple you chose not to post the catalog listing for is specifically listed for two cables.













We aim to please :thumbsup:



Executive said:


> Why would they list this staple differently (The SN150) if the other product (the SN40) did the same thing?


I cannot answer that ~ I do not work for that company.

I can say that since it does not specifically dis-allow multiple cables under the SB 40 IB, it is allowed....maybe not the best thing to do, but not against the instruction sheet either.




Executive said:


> I looked for UL listing of staples and found only Briscon as a listed product. It happens to be the brand my supply house carries. Gardner-Bender and King staples are not UL listed. I don't think you need "instructions". :laughing:


You tossed out the 110.3(B) card...instructions are needed to support your argument.




Executive said:


> AHJs in this area look for a listed staple when NM is stacked with a maximum of two. When I go to the supply house Monday, I will take a picture of the boxes which better describe the listing of the two different staples I have commented on here.
> 
> Chris


Does 334.30 actually required a listed staple?
I do not think "cable ties,straps, hangers, or similar fittings" are listed.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky;787970 said:


> So until you provide instructions for the staples I use, you really can't use 110.3(B).


What if I do not use staples...but rather some scraps of NM....copper wire...tie wire....ty-wraps...CJ6's....chewing gum....bungee cords...Velcro straps...etc etc etc ?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I agree.... I don't see it either.


Good...cause I just got new glasses [ bi-focals now ] and I'd be plenty PO'ed if they weren't working after shelling out a few hundred for them.

:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Good...cause I just got new glasses [ bi-focals now ] and I'd be plenty PO'ed if they weren't working after shelling out a few hundred for them.
> 
> :thumbup:



I just upgraded to tri's.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Just going on record saying that I've never had an inspector ask to see if my romex staples are listed or not.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Just going on record saying that I've never had an inspector ask to see if my romex staples are listed or not.


I've had to prove using an Arrow T-75 stapler with 7514S staples is legal.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I've had to prove using an Arrow T-75 stapler with 7514S staples is legal.


I would staple the inspector with it :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> I would staple the inspector with it :thumbup:



I tried. It's not lethal.


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

Celtic said:


> You are going to need to post the specific manuf. instructions to use 110.3(B) as your supporting article.





wendon said:


> 110.3 b


I did not post the reference to 110.3(B)

I did post a set of instructions for the brand of staples that I use which were immediately "interpreted" to meet the context of your argument. Perhaps the listing of the product is unclear. My point is simply that this manufacturer produces a specific product designed for two cables. If their other product was listed for this, why would two different products be necessary.



480sparky said:


> That's nice. Now how about the instructions for the staples I use?


I don't know what type of staples you use nor do I care. The request was to post specific manufacturer instructions. I did that for the staples I use. 

I'm new here, and do not yet understand the tone of the forum. I assumed some courtesy would be the norm. A glib "That's nice" comment does not seem to add much to this discussion. I had hoped for more professionalism.

Chris


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Oh, by the way, I use the SN40's and I double stack with them all the time.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Oh, by the way, I use the SN40's and I double stack with them all the time.


Yeah, but that is a Peter D type move ......... :jester:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, but that is a Peter D type move ......... :jester:



:furious::furious:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> :furious::furious:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


>


Ok, you were right. That is a Peter D move. But at least I'm beautiful. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Ok, you were right. That is a Peter D move.



I just use bent nails and bread bag twist ties.





> But at least I'm beautiful.



I am speechless


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I am speechless


Only because you know it's true. :thumbup:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Oh, by the way, I use the SN40's and I double stack with them all the time.


Good for you!! Do you also direct bury NM cable???:laughing::laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

110.3 (B)
*Installation and Use*
Listed or labeled equipment _shall_ be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Try arguing with a inspector over this one because they can and they do mark this. I had a electrician from out of state call me because he had wired a house in the local area and the inspector made him go back and redo the stapling. The state inspector will back him up on this one also.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wendon said:


> Good for you!! Do you also direct bury NM cable???:laughing::laughing:



No, I direct bury bell wire connected to 480 volts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wendon said:


> 110.3 (B)
> *Installation and Use*
> Listed or labeled equipment _shall_ be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.........



So if the staples aren't listed, 110.3(B) does not apply to them?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So if the staples aren't listed, 110.3(B) does not apply to them?


Where do you buy staples in a generic bag?? It also says* labeled*. If the wire staple says its for 12-2 cable that's what it means. If it says its for (2) 12-2 cables, then that's what it's intended for.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wendon said:


> Where do you buy staples in a generic bag?? It also says* labeled*. If the wire staple says its for 12-2 cable that's what it means. If it says its for (2) 12-2 cables, then that's what it's intended for.



"Labeled" does not mean there's a sticker on the package.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> "Labeled" does not mean there's a sticker on the package.


:001_huh::001_huh::notworthy::notworthy: You aren't by any chance related to my wife are you???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wendon said:


> :001_huh::001_huh::notworthy::notworthy: You aren't by any chance related to my wife are you???



Well, no matter how you look at it....... yes.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Executive said:


> I did not post the reference to 110.3(B)
> 
> I did post a set of instructions for the brand of staples that I use which were immediately "interpreted" to meet the context of your argument. Perhaps the listing of the product is unclear. My point is simply that this manufacturer produces a specific product designed for two cables. If their other product was listed for this, why would two different products be necessary.
> 
> ...



Its nothing personal or meant to be degrading Chris.
Some of us here can get a little passionate about the NEC.
If you stick around long enough ~ it'll happen to you too.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

wendon said:


> 110.3 (B)
> *Installation and Use*
> Listed or labeled equipment _shall_ be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


110.3(B) does not say everything used must be listed or labeled.

Typical example is nails or screws.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Listed staples?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

k_buz said:


> Listed staples?


I don't see any label.... :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Did you wear safety glasses when you hammered in those "listed" wire nails/staples? Most hammers have instructions on them that you're supposed to wear safety glasses!!


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