# pool water bond:



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I think that's a great idea. :thumbsup: Someone should market these. 

No one said the "pool water bond" had to be IN the pool. Right?

How does the code read?
(Damn, I'll have to get a 2008 CD one of these days.  )


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

leland said:


> Heres my plan: Inspectors would you accept it?
> 
> 
> Above ground pool: Bolted frame (totaly), I'm hitting 4 spots with the #8 bond (Coz I like too), Then the motor lug.
> ...


 
Electrically I thought you had to bond every upright, not positive though. I also thought you had to bolt lugs for grounding to the host material.

From a mechanical perspective, why put that much brass in the system? First off it's expensive, secondly pvc would do the same job and not weight a 100 lbs.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Electrically I thought you had to bond every upright, not positive though.


No. Not at all.





randomkiller said:


> I also thought you had to bolt lugs for grounding to the host material.


What do you mean by "host material"?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> From a mechanical perspective, why put that much brass in the system? First off it's expensive, secondly pvc would do the same job and not weight a 100 lbs.


He is talking about the new requirement to actually "bond" the water itself. A ludicrous request IMO.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> He is talking about the new requirement to actually "bond" the water itself. A ludicrous request IMO.


 
Oh, I wasn't familiar with that. But a 6' brass nipple sounds nuts.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

RK: it needs to be a no corrosive metal, brass or SS.(edit): If the pool is BOLTED, only 1 spot has to be hit, but if they are the slip together type, then yes ALL stantions must be bonded.

Speedy (from MEC- no NEC cd here either.



680.26(C). Revise to read as follows:

(C) Pool Water. Pool water shall have an electrical connection to one or more of the bonded parts described in 680.26(B). Where none of the bonded parts is in direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall be in direct contact with an approved corrosion-resistant conductive surface that exposes not less than 5800 mm2 (9 in.2) of surface area to the pool water at all times. The conductive surface shall be located where it is not exposed to physical damage or dislodgement during usual pool activities, and it shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B).


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

leland said:


> RK: it needs to be a no corrosive metal, brass or SS.(edit): If the pool is BOLTED, only 1 spot has to be hit, but if they are the slip together type, then yes ALL stantions must be bonded.
> 
> Speedy (from MEC- no NEC cd here either.
> 
> ...


 
They do make brass and copper tubing pieces @2' long for the inlet and outlet piping from pool heaters that aren't sch 40., maybe a lug brazed to one of them.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Ya, I could forget the union,or maybe a plastic one (big $ there I guess). I'm thinking about the HO puttin the pump away in the winter.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

My Bad, 6" (inch) nipple !!.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

leland said:


> My Bad, 6" (inch) nipple !!.


I didn't even notice the typo because 6" seemed logical. :laughing:
I knew the requirement was for only a few square inches. Hence my comment that this is a ludicrous requirement.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

leland said:


> Heres my plan: Inspectors would you accept it?
> 
> 
> Above ground pool: Bolted frame (totaly), I'm hitting 4 spots with the #8 bond (Coz I like too), Then the motor lug.
> ...


 

Wouldn't using a metal ladder (I'm assuming they have metal ladders for above ground pools) be the easiest for bonding the water?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

heel600 said:


> Wouldn't using a metal ladder (I'm assuming they have metal ladders for above ground pools) be the easiest for bonding the water?


You don't have to do this (bond the water) if any bonded parts - such as a ladder - is in contact with the water.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

So is bonding a ladder cup, then installing the ladder, a legal way to meet this requirement? It doesn't seem that those wedge clamps inside the ladder cups would be an acceptable means of attachment.

What about above ground pools? Metal ladders are becoming a thing of the past.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Ladder, Yes IF it is all metal and bolted. But if you have bearings in it you face the same dilema as the insulated pump issue.
This ladder is attached to a metal mount, however the ladder it self is plastic. dont want to damage the liner.

Not sure how long this ART. will hang on, more and more parts are plastic, Gunite/cement pools may be more pertanant to this code.

The old style wet niche fixture will meet this requirement, but the new ones are all plastic.
Don't be fooled and introduce this to the heater, some may not use or fill the heater. This must be on the pump to ensure integrity.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

will the 6 inch 1.5 tube give you the 9 square inches you need to bond with? 

you can also use the ladder or the wet nich pool light holder in the pool as your bond


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

The circumference of a 1.5" pipe is 4.71" .
4.71 x 6= 28.26"/sq


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> The circumference of a 1.5" pipe is 4.71" .
> 4.71 x 6= 28.26"/sq


but will that pipe be 100% full all the time?

i was at a meeting with jeff sargent from the nfpa and he wasnt sure if a small pipe like that would be good enough for bonding the water. he would have to check with the fluid engineers he knows


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i think pool manufacturers should put a stainless steel plate on the wall of the pool that we could bond too. they could put the company logo on it and make it look nice.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> but will that pipe be 100% full all the time?
> 
> i was at a meeting with jeff sargent from the nfpa and he wasnt sure if a small pipe like that would be good enough for bonding the water. he would have to check with the fluid engineers he knows


Using that logic the ONLY place the "water bond" could be would be at the bottom of the pool.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> but will that pipe be 100% full all the time?
> 
> i was at a meeting with jeff sargent from the nfpa and he wasnt sure if a small pipe like that would be good enough for bonding the water. he would have to check with the fluid engineers he knows


 
Well if it is an above ground pool and the pump is @ 8" high and the pool is 36" minimum height I'd say off hand that the pipe will be well below the water line and unless the strainer is clogged soild the pipe will be full of water. I think that's a pretty good way to handle the new requirement.


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

I came up with a bonding plate that will be easy and cost affective to use.
The bonding plate is made of stainless steel 3"x 4" witch is 12 square inches and the plate has a threaded stainless steel stud. This fits in the skimmer of the pool, all pools have skimmers. you drill a 1/4 inch hole in skimmer so the threaded stud can go through to the outside of skimmer to have a bonding lug attached to it.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Sounds like a good idea. :thumbsup:


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

Thanks
Let me no if anyone needs any


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Be careful. If the pump and skimmer manufacturers see that they'll copy it.

Did you make that?


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

Yes and it is patent pending


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

That is pretty neat. Who needs a fricken engineer?


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## Sparks 1942 (Feb 2, 2008)

Is that lug suitable for direct burial?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Sparks 1942 said:


> Is that lug suitable for direct burial?


 
No it isn't supposed to be aluminum.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

The lug issue came in this thread as well.
http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=2798


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

I supplied the bonding plate with the stainless steel threaded stud,nut,washers and lock washers. The lug was put on by the electrician and the electrical inspector did pass it.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Joe Mush said:


> The lug was put on by the electrician and the electrical inspector did pass it.


That really is sad.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> That really is sad.


 
Sure is, two guys that don't know code rquirements of their job at hand.


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## kram4yoo (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm using a brass barb. Which is basically the same part that you are replacing with a nipple. It's 1.5" x 4" long. Then I plan on using a ground clamp to connect the bonding wire.


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## sparkling (May 7, 2010)

Joe Mush said:


> Thanks
> Let me no if anyone needs any


Do you sell the bonding plate? How much? We are in swimming pool/spa business.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

leland said:


> Installing a 6' brass 1.5" nipple with a lug brazed to it. Then a 1.5 brass union, to nipple and hose adapter. extending the #8 to this lug of course.


You have a lug listed for brazing?

I am dead serious, I would use a listed grounding clamp on the brass nipple.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> No it isn't supposed to be aluminum.


It could be a tin plated copper lug, I have to use those for Solar modules and they are listed for DB.

But of course it might just be a standard AL lug and that is no good.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it really sucks a CMP passes a rule, but there is really not very many items out there that are "code compliant" for water bond.

I am doing an IG pool with no ladder.. steps only.

So what do I use for a water bond? :blink:

I wanted to ask here before I ask EI :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brass pipe nipple at the pump with a ground clamp.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Noone mentioned coating the bonding lugs with potting compound. I don't know if it's in the NEC but my inspector requires it. Same thing with niche lights too.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Brass pipe nipple at the pump with a ground clamp.


Would the brass pipe that attache's to the light socket be considered a water bond since the socket does fill up with water and is more than 9 sq. inches?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> Noone mentioned coating the bonding lugs with potting compound. I don't know if it's in the NEC but my inspector requires it. Same thing with niche lights too.


I use Scotchkote for that.. works really well :thumbsup:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

leland said:


> Heres my plan: Inspectors would you accept it?
> 
> 
> Above ground pool: Bolted frame (totaly), I'm hitting 4 spots with the #8 bond (Coz I like too), Then the motor lug.
> ...


Try this guy. I know them and they make a great product. Patent Pending and UL listed.

http://www.waterbonder.com


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