# problem with lights



## sparkybac (May 16, 2009)

The lights are 240V.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

3 way switch wired wrong.


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## sparkybac (May 16, 2009)

If the switch is off, he breaks the neutral and the lights come on, as you said. If the switch is ON and he breaks the neutral, do the lights stay on or turn off?


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Actually,I don't know what they do when neutral is broken while on. But they're is no 3 way switch and the circuit is 277... Appreciate the responses


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'd start with the assumption that just because the wire is white, doesn't mean it's the neutral.

-John


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

Mwbc. Picking up another Phase/leg through another load.
You're welcome.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

what i don't understand is why this is a problem


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

wildleg said:


> what i don't understand is why this is a problem


because the switch is off. Lights should not come on no matter what when switch is off correct?


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Ontariojer said:


> Mwbc. Picking up another Phase/leg through another load.
> You're welcome.


I'll run that by him, thank you


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Big John said:


> I'd start with the assumption that just because the wire is white, doesn't mean it's the neutral.
> 
> -John


It HAS to be something you wouldn't normally think of, the guy has ate slept and crapped electricity since he was 15. But maybe it is something simple. The poor guy has got alot on his plate, he's constantly running 3-4 different medium/large commercial jobs at a time with a newborn at home so sometimes things get past him.


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

Considering the total lack of details you have given it would be almost impossible for any anyone to answer this... I'm wondering where in the circuit did he break the neutral....

My guess would be the light neutral he broke was somehow also being used for a relay or contactor that was controlling the active supply to the lights, maybe through N/C contacts... the neutral that he broke was used as the coil neutral and somehow looped back through the lights...


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> Considering the total lack of details you have given it would be almost impossible for any anyone to answer this... I'm wondering where in the circuit did he break the neutral....
> 
> My guess would be the light neutral he broke was somehow also being used for a relay or contactor that was controlling the active supply to the lights, maybe through N/C contacts... the neutral that he broke was used as the coil neutral and somehow looped back through the lights...


I wouldn't say a total lack of details but ok, I don't know where he's breaking the neutral, sorry. Is a row of lights, with a switch. 277v. There is a night light in the center of the row and an emergency light at the end. Shared neutral. That's all I got for you right now.


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> Considering the total lack of details you have given it would be almost impossible for any anyone to answer this... I'm wondering where in the circuit did he break the neutral....
> 
> My guess would be the light neutral he broke was somehow also being used for a relay or contactor that was controlling the active supply to the lights, maybe through N/C contacts... the neutral that he broke was used as the coil neutral and somehow looped back through the lights...


But thanks for the reply


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

No worries thought I'd put the idea out anyway.... Sounds like a very interesting problem your Traddie's got there... Keep us posted anyway ..


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> No worries thought I'd put the idea out anyway.... Sounds like a very interesting problem your Traddie's got there... Keep us posted anyway ..


Will do.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ontariojer said:


> Mwbc. Picking up another Phase/leg through another load....


 What doesn't make sense about that is if the switch for the lights is open, there'd be no path to complete the MWBC.

I agree that if the lights were running, and lifting the neutral failed to turn them off, that could be the solution.

-John


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Big John said:


> What doesn't make sense about that is if the switch for the lights is open, there'd be no path to complete the MWBC.
> 
> I agree that if the lights were running, and lifting the neutral failed to turn them off, that could be the solution.
> 
> -John


That was my question too...I know how you would get voltage on the white, but how the black turned into the return path with the switch turned off.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

oww-is-that-hot? said:


> I wouldn't say a total lack of details but ok, I don't know where he's breaking the neutral, sorry. Is a row of lights, with a switch. 277v. There is a night-light in the center of the row and an emergency light at the end. Shared neutral. That's all I got for you right now.



So the neutral from the night-light circuit are spliced together?:blink:

"Shared neutral."

You are back feeding through the neutral in the night-light.

Separate the two neutral circuits in the night-light and I'll bet that is the problem.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Big John said:


> What doesn't make sense about that is if the switch for the lights is open, there'd be no path to complete the MWBC.
> 
> I agree that if the lights were running, and lifting the neutral failed to turn them off, that could be the solution.
> 
> -John


I think they are using the neutral as the switch leg.

When he opens it at the switch box it picks up the neutral in the night-light


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Sorry guys.I was wrong, there is no shared neutral on this floor. we've been here a couple hours troubleshooting and not really getting anywhere. and I might not be able to explain this well enough for all of you to understand Me.
But he's starting to think it might be unavoidable, that it might be something that the batteries just make happen. he's getting up to 50 volts on the neutral with switch off... I dunno he's starting to get really complex with his theories. Sorry I can't explain better guys...


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Time for some old school wire tracing.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Ontariojer said:


> Mwbc. Picking up another Phase/leg through another load.
> You're welcome.


That would put 480 on the ballasts and smoke the whole row, likely.

Mark


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever's causing this is not that complex, it's simply wired wrong.

-John


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

do these fixtures have emergency back up ballasts? are they turning on at full capacity or a diminished capacity?


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

D-Bo said:


> do these fixtures have emergency back up ballasts? are they turning on at full capacity or a diminished capacity?


Its 2 rows of 5 strip lights on one switch. The middle fixture in each row is the emergency. It just has a battery back up. You wouldn't know anything was wrong until u broke the neutral with the switch off. That's when the regular fixtures kick on. and I didn't know this til I got there but its just one regular light in each row that kicks on and it'll either light one tube fully or both tubes will flicker. night lights work just fine. But I realized pretty quickly that it's going to be way over my head,I just don't have enough experience.


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever's causing this is not that complex, it's simply wired wrong.
> 
> -John


That's what I thought, but we got to the point where we just opened every fixture, every junction box , switch box-everything is wired correctly for sure now.


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Also, when the switch is on, and neutral is lifted, lights do turn off.


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

oww-is-that-hot? said:


> .he's getting up to 50 volts on the neutral with switch off...


Is he using a high impedance digital multimetre? If so that would be a capacitance or inductance he's seeing, also commonly refered to as "ghost voltages" If he used a low impedance metre that 50 volt's would disappear...

It's deffinently starting to sound like these lights are wired incorrectly.... and that shared neutral might also be worth investigating..

Never mind just re-read no shared neutral don't worry about then..


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

oww-is-that-hot? said:


> Its 2 rows of 5 strip lights on one switch. The middle fixture in each row is the emergency. It just has a battery back up. You wouldn't know anything was wrong until u broke the neutral with the switch off. That's when the regular fixtures kick on. and I didn't know this til I got there but its just one regular light in each row that kicks on and it'll either light one tube fully or both tubes will flicker. night lights work just fine. But I realized pretty quickly that it's going to be way over my head,I just don't have enough experience.


 
Yup, sounds like the lights are backfeeding through somewhere when he disconnects the neutral......wired wrong..


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Are the emergency lights on the same circuit?


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

are the lights continuous row mounted or connected by metal conduit?


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## haltonelectrician (May 27, 2011)

Swap the neutral for the night light circuit with the neutral for the remaining lights.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

its probably the same neutral, should be anyway


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm thinking the wiring is confused with the night lights and when the neutral is broken the e-lights are trying to fire all the lights in the row. Are the fixtures all butt to butt with wire pulled through all the fixtures? And are the e-lights battery backup?


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

When power is cut ie: breaking the neutral, its like the power is out so e-lights are turning on and if they are battery backup and trying to light all the lights then you'll get flickering and half light lights. Just a guess but maybe the constant feed for the e-lights and the switching for main lights are confused.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

thats what i was driving at. more than once ive seen emergency ballast fixtures come from the factory with the wiring completely ass backwards and needing to be redone


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

Confucius says find e-light cut sheets. Make sure all wires on ballast are connected correctly. Pray to Budda, then turn on power! Don't forget inscents and candles!!


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

and the virgins, don't forget the virgins


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

oww-is-that-hot? said:


> Sorry guys.I was wrong, there is no shared neutral on this floor. we've been here a couple hours troubleshooting and not really getting anywhere. and I might not be able to explain this well enough for all of you to understand Me.
> But he's starting to think it might be unavoidable, that it might be something that the batteries just make happen. he's getting up to 50 volts on the neutral with switch off... I dunno he's starting to get really complex with his theories. Sorry I can't explain better guys...



T-shooting this for a couple of hours and not getting anywhere ?????????????


Fire that J-man. If he can't t-shoot a light circuit in 20 minutes, he needs to work a Happy Jacks flipping burgers, not wiring inside buildings.

Ask your boss if you can work with someone else, that guy your working with is a loser.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Never mind..............


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## teslacontracting (May 22, 2010)

I think you might be back feeding on the switchleg somewhere along the line, like maybe from the nightlight to regular fixture. However, if its on the same phase you wouldn't necessarily buck phases. This would cause the lights to work all the time until you broke the white wire "which isn't necessarily a neutral, and by the same token, have you checked to see if the switch itself is breaking an neutral "a stretch I know". Hope I could help.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm with the crowd that thinks it's the emergency lights kicking in. When the neutral is broken, the constant power is broken so the e-lights think there is a loss of power (well, actually there is) so they come on. 

If this is the case, there is nothing wrong with the wiring and y'all are just wasting time.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm with the crowd that thinks it's the emergency lights kicking in....


 But I've never seen emergency lights backfeed normal fixtures, and from the description, it sounds like it's the normal fixtures that are affected.

I dunno. I think the information here is too spotty to solve this.

-John


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## haltonelectrician (May 27, 2011)

I havnt seen a post from OP since this threat started, lets end this


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## teslacontracting (May 22, 2010)

There's only a bundle of theories you can throw at this problem. If your backfeeding a switchleg to a normal fixture with a battery from an emergency one you guys should learn to wire lights.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> But I've never seen emergency lights backfeed normal fixtures, and from the description, it sounds like it's the normal fixtures that are affected.
> 
> I dunno. I think the information here is too spotty to solve this.
> 
> -John


I agree the info is spotty and incomplete.

I'm thinking about fixtures that have a "normal" ballast and an "emergency ballast". The circuit "hot" wire goes to the switch and to the lights along with the switch leg and neutral. The hot is connected to the emergency ballast and the switch leg is connected to the regular ballast, the neutral is connected to both. So, when the neutral is broken, the lights come on, not all of them, just the ones with the e-ballast. Now, the problem is the OP's description would say this is not the problem based on his explanation but this is only thing that makes sense to me. I'm going with the OP is confused about what lights are coming on when the neutral is broken.


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