# journeyman classes



## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

hd13 said:


> i am asking for any ideas or thoughts on how to get more journeyman, specifically under-skilled journeyman and organized journeyman to take standard skills inside wireman classes like conduit bending and layout, wire pulling, job site organization, communication, the non-special stuff. any ideas on class names or anything would be appreciated. thank you


If you are a contractor do a class and require attendance.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i am asking for any ideas or thoughts on how to get more journeyman, specifically under-skilled journeyman and organized journeyman to take standard skills inside wireman classes like conduit bending and layout, wire pulling, job site organization, communication, the non-special stuff. any ideas on class names or anything would be appreciated. thank you


The solution to your problem is a proper apprenticeship. Apprenticing IS "journeyman class" and it takes years. There are no shortcuts. What you seek really amounts to "installer training."


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The solution to your problem is a proper apprenticeship. Apprenticing IS "journeyman class" and it takes years. There are no shortcuts. What you seek really amounts to "installer training."


i agree but the international's core curriculum ties our hands pretty good (unless we lie and forge documentation to the international) with spending five years teaching apprentices things that are related to their job but not teaching them there actual job in the classroom and hoping slugs in the field will teach them what they REALLY need to know. we are a small local. apprentices learn barely an acceptable amount of skill required for the job through the five years (which would be different if the core curriculum mandated by the international was focused on teaching apprentices there actual jobs). our local works a tremendous amount of overtime and it is barely realistic to have apprentices go the hours to class they are required currently.
so until we can get the international to listen i was going to try to get under-skilled journeyman back in the classroom to improve there skills.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

kg7879 said:


> If you are a contractor do a class and require attendance.


i find you get better results if the journeyman want to take the class to learn rather than to get paid for taking the class


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

we may have some problems in my local that others don't have as much. what should be being taught in the field isn't. if there were very skilled workers in the past in the local a lot of the skill left with them. i know this isn't completely unique to our local though, when i talk to people that travel they actually consider us one of the best skilled locals which is very disheartening.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

If you can't get your apprentices into the classroom, which is a requirement of their apprenticeship, how do you propose to get a JW to volunteer to take a class on their time?

I don't know what the International's technical position is, but in my local classroom hours we're non-negotiable. You could only (excusably) miss 3 classes before you have to repeat the year and there were requirements on what was an excused absence and even then, the missed time was made up by attending a make up class. 

I have been a broken record on the subject (and perhaps idealistic), but here it goes:

If the Union Hall is a store, who is their customer?

It's not the company paying to have electric work done... its the Contractor.

If the Union Hall is a store, what do they sell?

It's not the quality or speed of the work you do...that's important, but it's not what the Hall is selling...the Hall is selling UNIFORM TRAINING. It's what allows a contractor to take on larger work because they can theoretically call the hall and get as many seasoned JWs that should have fairly uniform training and can fit in on any crew at any phase of the job. 

As soon as the uniform training is compromised (through organizing efforts or a weak or ineffective JATC) you have watered down your product and it's only a matter of time before your customer realizes this.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

drewsserviceco said:


> If you can't get your apprentices into the classroom, which is a requirement of their apprenticeship, how do you propose to get a JW to volunteer to take a class on their time?


we don't have any problem with apprentices going to classes. we don't allow them to miss any classes


we also have uniformed training, although it's not proper training in my opinion. the majoirty of the journeyman are uniformly underskilled.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

Ok. Your post made it seem like the apprentices aren't making it to all of their classes because of working all of the OT. 

You are definitely correct that the apprenticeship, although one of the best in the country, leaves a lot to be desired with regards to practical execution of work. I understand that the International has been able to use the technical/engineering based curriculum as a tool to push for higher wages. 

It seems that they left the hands on skills to be acquired in the field through the mentoring process from JW to apprentice, which would work fine if it weren't for the frantic pace of today's jobs (not allowing the time for the mentoring to occur as well as some locals not following the app/JW ratios), the evolving construction materials/methods and the transition of our economy from manufacturing to service.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i agree but the international's core curriculum ties our hands pretty good (unless we lie and forge documentation to the international) with spending five years teaching apprentices things that are related to their job but not teaching them there actual job in the classroom and hoping slugs in the field will teach them what they REALLY need to know. we are a small local. apprentices learn barely an acceptable amount of skill required for the job through the five years (which would be different if the core curriculum mandated by the international was focused on teaching apprentices there actual jobs). our local works a tremendous amount of overtime and it is barely realistic to have apprentices go the hours to class they are required currently.
> so until we can get the international to listen i was going to try to get under-skilled journeyman back in the classroom to improve there skills.


NO apprentice is permitted to skip school to work overtime. That's a profit driven decision, not an education driven decision. Classroom work is imperative for an apprentice to grasp the theory - skill learning on hands occurs in the field. The onus is on the apprentice to touch as many bases as possible. It's not perfect, electrical work isn't bricklaying.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Are you a contractor or are you responsible for training apprentices from the JATC?

If you are a contractor and you are dissatisfied with the skill level of your JW then you need to be upfront about that with them. What skills do you feel they lack? If it is basic stuff then I would just simply provide training and make it mandatory. If certain JW's give you grief about it then send them down the road. However I would do the training during normal working hours. 

Personally, I would love if the contractors in my local gave a damn about training and making the JW's better but they do not care.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> NO apprentice is permitted to skip school to work overtime. That's a profit driven decision, not an education driven decision. Classroom work is imperative for an apprentice to grasp the theory - skill learning on hands occurs in the field. The onus is on the apprentice to touch as many bases as possible. It's not perfect, electrical work isn't bricklaying.


no apprentices are missing any classes for any reasons including overtime. skills are not being taught in the field near as often or as well as they should.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

kg7879 said:


> Are you a contractor or are you responsible for training apprentices from the JATC?
> 
> If you are a contractor and you are dissatisfied with the skill level of your JW then you need to be upfront about that with them. What skills do you feel they lack? If it is basic stuff then I would just simply provide training and make it mandatory. If certain JW's give you grief about it then send them down the road. However I would do the training during normal working hours.
> 
> Personally, I would love if the contractors in my local gave a damn about training and making the JW's better but they do not care.



kind of piggybacking off what drew posted previously. the union is supposed to provide the skilled labor to the contractor. im talking about teaching what i consider basic skills not special skills or anything. obviously a contractor that would pay there guys to go to class probably pushes on the job training on there jobs well enough. the problem is when that good contractor needs extra hands from the hall he has to take an extra drink of whiskey before he makes the call. thanks for the input though


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

hd13 said:


> i am asking for any ideas or thoughts on how to get more journeyman, specifically under-skilled journeyman and organized journeyman to take standard skills inside wireman classes like conduit bending and layout, wire pulling, job site organization, communication, the non-special stuff. any ideas on class names or anything would be appreciated. thank you


Would you be able to hook up with a local community college in order to offer up some credits towards a certificate or maybe even a project managers program? Maybe preface the training as a foreman's class for thos elooking to improve.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

hd13 said:


> kind of piggybacking off what drew posted previously. the union is supposed to provide the skilled labor to the contractor. im talking about teaching what i consider basic skills not special skills or anything. obviously a contractor that would pay there guys to go to class probably pushes on the job training on there jobs well enough. the problem is when that good contractor needs extra hands from the hall he has to take an extra drink of whiskey before he makes the call. thanks for the input though


I sympathize with your situation. Sometimes when guys become JW's they feel they arrived and that is the end of the education. However, the jatc has always seen training in the field more vital than anything you could learn in the classroom and the contractors believe they should get all their training at the jatc. There is a disconnect between the contractors and jatc and the hall in general when it comes to training. 

Have you voiced your concerns to the business manager about the lack of basic skills? Also realize it seems more and more that quality and craftsmanship does not count anymore on union jobs. Most contractors want production over quality. When this happens it is hard to teach decent skills to apprentices.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Would you be able to hook up with a local community college in order to offer up some credits towards a certificate or maybe even a project managers program? Maybe preface the training as a foreman's class for thos elooking to improve.


our training is actually already connected to a college you get college credit for a lot of things, it does bring some guys. foreman class would probably bring some, we do already have normal foreman training classes about annually, but could have another kind of foreman class.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

kg7879 said:


> Have you voiced your concerns to the business manager about the lack of basic skills? Also realize it seems more and more that quality and craftsmanship does not count anymore on union jobs. Most contractors want production over quality. When this happens it is hard to teach decent skills to apprentices.


the business manager acknowledges it, there is a group of us working to make some needed changes, it will get better. just thought i would look for some ideas here. thanks


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