# Flush Mount Outdoor Load Center



## Warning (Dec 21, 2018)

Ok. So I know this is not a new thread, but here goes....I have read the posts regarding flush mount and semi flush outdoor load centers. My question is regarding the responses as to why the manufacturers do not make them (any more). The main posted reason is because they will allegedly allow water to accumulate inside of them and not drain properly through weep holes or they will allow water to drain inside the wall. If that were the case, then why do they make CSED's that are flush mount? I have personally installed many meter main combo's that were manufactured by popular brands, commonly available in big box depot's, that are of the flush mount variety. They have pretty much all gone into stucco walls, most of the time as a service upgrade. If a load center would put water in the wall, why wouldnt a CSED do the same thing? Whether it is a side by side or a stacked meter/main combo, it would still have the same potential for water accumulation as would a 3R load center.That argument alone does not hold water with me. No pun intended. As long as the cover closes into the lip on the panel, there should be no problem. Anyone care to beat this dead horse?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

They are dumb and stupid. 

End of story.

No reason they can't make 3r MLO panel, Jboxes (Like 14.5x6), and a **** load of other stuff. Their heads are so far up their asses thinking about AFCi breakers they can't see anything.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't know.
maybe...MAYBE...if the panel is recessed in the wall
even if it's facing outdoors , the panel may technically
still be considered in the building? IMO the cover would be
outside , though and if not NEMA 3R probably won't last long,

Never did this before and I can't see wanting to do it 
this way ever in the future , but just curious why Op
would need an outdoor rated panel to be flush mount?
Main meter combos flush mounted in stucco walls?
That wouldn't fly here. The line side of the meter would
not be permitted inside the wall of the building


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I do not see much of a problem in flush mounting a panel in a wall due to rain. But i do see problems with flush mounting a panel in a exterior wall due to other problems like insulation (thermal), Temperature differences and condensation, Access to the knock-outs etc.

If the advantages do not out weigh the disadvantages then why do something in the first place.

What real advantages are there to flush mounting the panel?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

I don't see flush mounting anything. You can wire up everything from inside during new construction I guess if the exterior sheathing is finished but after that how would you run your raceways to it if they're not basically inside runs? And at that point whats the point? Meter bases I can see because the only load pretty much dictates either exterior raceway or a wall penetration anyways to go to the load center but with a distribution panel you have to incorporate an access for repairs and future modifications whether it is flush or surface mount, and at worst it's a little drywall work to fix it. But exterior sheathing? Most of it is at least intended as once and done or redo it all. Condensation can be fixed. A lot of commercial 3R stuff has extra tray space and vent louvers to allow it to breath and drain. The wall seal isn't a big deal either for the panel. Windows are basically just boxes shimmer and cut into a wall with foam fill, flashing, caulk, and trim boards to hide all the ugly details. No reason a flush panel can't mount basically the same way except no interior penetration. Maybe a foam back to fix the blatant R value issue except in unheated spaces and places like Honolulu.


Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

paulengr said:


> I don't see flush mounting anything. You can wire up everything from inside during new construction I guess if the exterior sheathing is finished but after that how would you run your raceways to it if they're not basically inside runs? And at that point whats the point? Meter bases I can see because the only load pretty much dictates either exterior raceway or a wall penetration anyways to go to the load center but with a distribution panel you have to incorporate an access for repairs and future modifications whether it is flush or surface mount, and at worst it's a little drywall work to fix it. But exterior sheathing? Most of it is at least intended as once and done or redo it all. Condensation can be fixed. A lot of commercial 3R stuff has extra tray space and vent louvers to allow it to breath and drain. The wall seal isn't a big deal either for the panel. Windows are basically just boxes shimmer and cut into a wall with foam fill, flashing, caulk, and trim boards to hide all the ugly details. No reason a flush panel can't mount basically the same way except no interior penetration. Maybe a foam back to fix the blatant R value issue except in unheated spaces and places like Honolulu.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Not sure about a lot of other locations, but out west flush mount is common, in fact in Arizona, Nevada, and California it is the norm. Thousands, if not millions of services are flush mounted. 

A semi-flush 3R sub-panel would be a nice product to have available for use. Even more awesome would be a semi-flush Jbox to be able to splice wiring above/below a service panel.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Out here the term is 'semi-flush' -- as they actually don't go all the way to flush.

They totally rule our market.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switched said:


> Not sure about a lot of other locations, but out west flush mount is common, in fact in Arizona, Nevada, and California it is the norm. Thousands, if not millions of services are flush mounted.
> 
> A semi-flush 3R sub-panel would be a nice product to have available for use. Even more awesome would be a semi-flush Jbox to be able to splice wiring above/below a service panel.


I've changed more than my share of those damn things. I found out that if there's any conduit to the panel, it's easier to just surface mount the new one right over the old one, and leave the can in the wall as a j-box. It may not look as pretty as a flush mount, but.....tuff.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> I've changed more than my share of those damn things. I found out that if there's any conduit to the panel, it's easier to just surface mount the new one right over the old one, and leave the can in the wall as a j-box. It may not look as pretty as a flush mount, but.....tuff.


Nah.. I just open up the stucco or sheetrock on the interior and get it all done. Once the wall repairs have been made, looks good as new. Sometimes though, there is no other option but to abandon the original and mount one to the side, just like you said.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switched said:


> Nah.. I just open up the stucco or sheetrock on the interior and get it all done. Once the wall repairs have been made, looks good as new. Sometimes though, there is no other option but to abandon the original and mount one to the side, just like you said.


Oh, yeah fer sure, if it's all Romex. I did one (flush) on a 2500 sq ft. custom home that had a bunch of EMT, MC, PVC ran to it, top, and bottom, and it was a PIA. Of course the new panel was shorter than the original. Going from the inside was out of the question. (had some funky ass texture coat that I've never seen before).


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> Oh, yeah fer sure, if it's all Romex. I did one (flush) on a 2500 sq ft. custom home that had a bunch of EMT, MC, PVC ran to it, top, and bottom, and it was a PIA. Of course the new panel was shorter than the original. Going from the inside was out of the question. (had some funky ass texture coat that I've never seen before).


Did one like that 2 weeks ago. 

Installed a Jbox on the interior, fortunate that it was a garage wall. This is where a 3R semi-flush Jbox would have been awesome. They need to extend beyond the wall enough to get a 1" conduit into the top and bottom of them though.

This place had a mess of GRC, EMT, Sealtite, and NM everywhere. It will look good when the stucco guy is done, but it looks like butt right now!


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

I'll be honest, as common as semi-flush CSED's are in California, it never even occurred to me that a semi-flush loadcenter was not really a thing in the market. That is, until I actually looked for one for my own home's upgrade.

With the upcoming increase in storage systems, the need for a 'vital loads' panel increases. A loadcenter (subpanel) that can be fed from the storage inverters, supplemented by the solar inverters, and disconnected from the 'main' panel during an outage by a 'Microgrid Interconnect Device' to supply just the vital loads (computer, modem, lights, refrigerators, convenience outlets, etc).

In homes here on the west coast, CSED's are almost all semi-flush mount in stucco walls, with romex supplying everything in the home. The ability to install a semi-flush loadcenter next to the main panel to pick up those vital loads will make these installs considerably easier, and end up with a much better looking finished product. Otherwise, it requires an ugly surface mount 'upgrade' right next to the existing CSED.

I suppose the other alternative is to replace the main CSED with a 'split bus' generator ready panel - which contains 2 seperate busses and an interlocked breaker set to feed one of them (the vital loads) - but I'll be honest, I haven't looked at the availability of them to see if they are available in semi-flush trim either.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

I swear, at this point in the search, I was starting to consider just installing a second CSED next to the first, and removing/bypassing the meter. I would much prefer that option over a surface mount box with the location I am needing to do this in.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here is my take: They don't sell enough of them to keep producing them. I usually just create my own using a 3R load center if the customer demands a flush mount on the exterior. I did one three yrs ago , it came out really nice but it is a hassle. Would rather put them inside cause it's easy. Or you can try getting away with flush mounting an indoor panel all the way inside the exterior wall facing out to exterior, and then creating a door so it becomes an indoor location. Like this:









I put an indoor panel facing the exterior of the dwelling and then had the carpenters frame up a door around it. I have done this maybe twenty times and always passed inspections. No one even questioned it......... I would have if I was an inspector.....


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

While that's not a terrible alternative - though a bit dubious at best - if doesn't look near as nice on a stucco install.

It makes me wonder which path is 'less dubious':
- Using an indoor panel in what is a disguised outdoor location, as you've done
- Using a Semi-flush CSED with the meter socket blanked off and bypassed

In my particular situation, I actually DO need a flush-mount CSED for my main service entrance, and just want a critical loads panel located in the same general area for a generator or battery backup based upgrade at a later time. Which, for me, brings up yet another dubious proposition:
- Using a single large semi-flush CSED panel, and splitting the bus similar to the newer 'generator ready' load centers to split critical and non-critical circuits. I mean, if the factory can do so, why can't we, right?

Square D Homeline 'Generator Ready' panel (the bus bars are cut between those two installed breakers):









Full disclosure - I HAVE cut bus bars like this before (in my RV's BR based panel to separate a few loads to run on an inverter), and there is a large panel at the hospital I work at where they split the bus bars to separate an old 480V 3W panel and turn part of it into a 480V 4W load center by sending the 3W out to a delta-wye transformer and bringing it back onto the other part of the bus for the 480/277 loads. I mean, if this flies at a hospital, it should definitely be okay at home...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Out my way, the typical All-In-One has the Poco (meter) section to the left and the main with daughter breakers to the right. 

And typically the device is set within an exterior wall -- the garage wall. 

And typically one may find a garage entrance door very close to the Service -- as in there is no full stud bay -- just doubled or tripled studding around the door. ( California framing standards are intense and just seem to keep going up over the decades. )

Consequently, any time local ECs upgrade to solar, gen-sets, it's surface mounted. 

And typically these a pretty ugly installs. I've never seen anyone install the add-ons in a semi-flush format. But then, they use apprentice labor almost exclusively.

In my community all garages have to be fully rocked. Spare 3/4" raceways are mandated to come out of the tops of all new builds. Yeah, it's those loose leaf local amendments, again.

To get the look I'd want -- and I don't work this end of the street -- I'd merely cut open the sheet rock and make my connections by going overhead -- across the stud(s) from the old work to my new can. (Greenfield; Heck some manual transfer switches have the magic whip factory wired.) This is always possible because the local government requires Services to be fed underground. ( You have to go miles and miles to find an old residential power pole. ) It has been discovered that underground distribution is drastically safer than overhead during earthquakes.

[ Broken poles, flying pots, downed lines -- they are a real hassle. ]

Patching the inside of the garage and all else would be outside of my scope of work. Immigrant plasterers out here will perform that work for peanuts.

I'd never touch the exterior stucco until I knew for certain that a given stud bay was unobstructed.

Also at issue: 

Around here the Gas Company usually stuffs its Service hard to the left of the All-In-One. This makes it an obstruction for anything electrical, semi-flush or surface mounted. It can be a real puzzle as to where one can stick any additional gear. For just to the left of the Gas Service you can expect to find A/C condensers, pad mounted. 

All of the above is the key reason why this line of country has no appeal to me.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

@tesla,
What 'is done around' your area is not necessarily representative of everywhere, even in other parts of the same state. While yes, 'around here' we also see quite a few tract homes with the CSED's flush mounted on the outside of the garage wall, not every home is a tract home, and not every home is less than 30 years old. In my particular case, my CSED is on the complete opposite corner of the house from my garage, because that is the corner of the house where the 'residential power pole' is located, and, with my master bedroom closet on the inside of that location, I do have the opportunity to open the wall and inspect for stud locations and the ability to replace the existing CSED with an upgraded semi-flush one, as well as install an additional semi-flush load center in a nearby stud cavity - if one was available on the market.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

CraziFuzzy said:


> @*tesla*,
> *What 'is done around' your area is not necessarily representative of everywhere*, even in other parts of the same state. While yes, 'around here' we also see quite a few tract homes with the CSED's flush mounted on the outside of the garage wall, not every home is a tract home, and not every home is less than 30 years old. In my particular case, my CSED is on the complete opposite corner of the house from my garage, because that is the corner of the house where the 'residential power pole' is located, and, with my master bedroom closet on the inside of that location, I do have the opportunity to open the wall and inspect for stud locations and the ability to replace the existing CSED with an upgraded semi-flush one, as well as install an additional semi-flush load center in a nearby stud cavity - if one was available on the market.


Yeah, that's why I 'personalized' the layout. Obviously, I assumed that many folks have a totally different situation.

Up in Placerville, everything is ancient. It even features the oldest hardware store west of the Mississippi river. It's been in business since the gold rush. :smile:

Those ancient homes are as much of a PITA as one might imagine. :vs_OMG:

The NEMA players must have changed their spots. My old, old Sq D and C-H product manuals did feature NEMA3R semi-flushes in load-center sizes. ( I've tossed them, so this is from memory. ) But since such items were not EUSERC approved -- as far as I could tell -- it's easy to see why they are not ready to hand in California. Though in the catalog, they were not sent our way. The NEMA players never figured on retro-fit quasi heavy-ups being cut-in to stucco. They assumed that semi-flush load-centers would only be set in new-builds. 

( They were too small for EUSERC, load-wise. ) 

The NEMA players may want to re-think their assumption. :smile:


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

The lack of semi-flush load centers would have nothing to to with EUSERC or NEMA. NEMA totally allows it, and EUSERC only cares about service entrance devices. It's just the manufacturer's that don't feel there's enough demand for them. I just wish there was a way to show that demand.


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## Dmitry R (Dec 4, 2020)

Warning said:


> Ok. So I know this is not a new thread, but here goes....I have read the posts regarding flush mount and semi flush outdoor load centers. My question is regarding the responses as to why the manufacturers do not make them (any more). The main posted reason is because they will allegedly allow water to accumulate inside of them and not drain properly through weep holes or they will allow water to drain inside the wall. If that were the case, then why do they make CSED's that are flush mount? I have personally installed many meter main combo's that were manufactured by popular brands, commonly available in big box depot's, that are of the flush mount variety. They have pretty much all gone into stucco walls, most of the time as a service upgrade. If a load center would put water in the wall, why wouldnt a CSED do the same thing? Whether it is a side by side or a stacked meter/main combo, it would still have the same potential for water accumulation as would a 3R load center.That argument alone does not hold water with me. No pun intended. As long as the cover closes into the lip on the panel, there should be no problem. Anyone care to beat this dead horse?


I don’t see a need for flush mount. How would you ever tap into panel for future work .


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

gpop said:


> I do not see much of a problem in flush mounting a panel in a wall due to rain. But i do see problems with flush mounting a panel in a exterior wall due to other problems like insulation (thermal), Temperature differences and condensation, Access to the knock-outs etc.
> 
> If the advantages do not out weigh the disadvantages then why do something in the first place.
> 
> What real advantages are there to flush mounting the panel?


You bring up a good point about "thermal problems" when going with a flush or semi flush panel on an exterior wall.
I think the real problem is esthetics. Most customers don't want a surface mounted panel mounted on there beautiful homes.
In California the majority of homes have the service located outside the garage and thermal would not be a real issue.
Personally I would prefer my service panel inside my garage so I would not have to go outside to reset a breaker.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

So, this topic came up again, with discussions of ADU's and California SB-9 duplex builds. Most ADU's and second houses are being built with power feeding from the main original home, but fire departments still would prefer the disconnecting means to be on the outside of the house. The fire engineer shouldn't need to go to the building that is NOT on fire to turn off the power to the building that is. This means there is still a demand for a load center on the outside of the apartment/granny-flat/etc dwelling, or at least a main disconnect, with a load center inside - something that, to match the builds tyle and aesthetic of the original home, would justify a semi-flush outdoor main breaker load center...


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