# working space in front of electrical equipment



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Just passed a final but not without getting my ass chewed about working space in front of a panel I replaced in a closet that is accessible by twin doors; directly opposite the panel is a stackable washer/dryer combo, which left me two feet of space between the panel and washer/dryer. I argued that you can access the panel to shut off the main and any breakers and even work on it if need be, and in the event that it needed replacing, the washer/dryer can be moved out of closet. He pissed and moaned but really, I don't think it's a big deal. :no: Thoughts?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I agree its no big deal, but next time move tge appliance before the inspection. You need 36"


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

BuzzKill said:


> I argued that you can access the panel to shut off the main and any breakers and even work on it if need be, and in the event that it needed replacing, the washer/dryer can be moved out of closet. He pissed and moaned but really, I don't think it's a big deal. Thoughts?


The importance of maintaining working space is both emergency access, and safety of those accessing the equipment.

*1.* During an emergency would a larger person be able to quickly access the breaker panel? 

*2.* For anything short of replacing the panel, do you think someone would actually move the washer/dryer combo just to work on, or troubleshoot this panel? Likely not, which means someone would then be working in a cramped space, potentially with exposed energized parts.

NEC 110.26 requires a minimum working space about electrical equipment of 30" wide, 36" deep, and 78" high. Where I work we're pretty adamant about keeping this area clear (love that rule - makes life so much easier).


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

BuzzKill said:


> Just passed a final but not without getting my ass chewed about working space in front of a panel I replaced in a closet that is accessible by twin doors; directly opposite the panel is a stackable washer/dryer combo, which left me two feet of space between the panel and washer/dryer. I argued that you can access the panel to shut off the main and any breakers and even work on it if need be, and in the event that it needed replacing, the washer/dryer can be moved out of closet. He pissed and moaned but really, I don't think it's a big deal. :no: Thoughts?


Can't say about the rules in GA but in Ohio if the panel is a replacement in an existing location it can remain as long as the hazard (being the lack of working space) is not increased.

If it were a new install then the min. working clearances would have to be there.

Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Working space is the most violated code by others in the NEC


I'm tired of arguing inches with carpenters who use a tape measure every day


We usually have our say, and then it can go before the AHJ or Fire Marshal to argue


~CS~


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## Carultch (May 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Working space is the most violated code by others in the NEC
> 
> I'm tired of arguing inches with carpenters who use a tape measure every day
> 
> ...


Working space is a big issue, because you have to coordinate it with other trades, many of whom may not be concerned with it or thinking about it.

It is very understandable that all the stuff shows up on a pallet, and you're struggling to play electrical room tetris to make it fit, all while trying to guess at the lesser of two violations.

1. The architects and engineers don't know how big the equipment is, unless we tell them while the building walls are still negotiable in concept. Work with your MEP engineering firm to make sure they understand the equipment size and work space requirements.

2. The architects do not want to give us a larger than necessary room to put our equipment. They are concerned about the square feet of occupied space that will be of value to the end user, and rightly so. Not about a locked industrial room in the basement that only the maintenance guys will use on occasion.

3. Plumbers, HVAC contractors, and other trades who build systems foreign to the electrical work. They got their own game of tetris to play, and their work space to reserve. Your work space might look like the perfect spot for their equipment, and all of a sudden the place you planned doesn't work. Oh, what's that? There's an air conditioning duct right above where I want to put my panel? Guess what...can't put it there because of dedicated space.

I'd like to make an NEC proposal that allows NEMA3R equipment to be installed under foreign systems, as long as no requirements of the foreign systems are violated. A rainproof panelboard should be able to be installed directly under a pipe that might drip a slow leak of water, and there shouldn't be any consequences.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

*space...*

I'd say not your worry.

I don't see how this responsibility can be put on the electrician most of the time. How can you control who puts what within 36" of a panel front?

Every time I go into a particular office I have to move chairs, desks, shredders, etc. I tell them _these shouldn't_ and _you need to_ and they hear yada, yada, yada.

Nobody listens:no:

"_They_" use one of my transformer rooms to store pallets of paper towels, too!:blink:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

cuba_pete said:


> I don't see how this responsibility can be put on the electrician most of the time. How can you control who puts what within 36" of a panel front?
> 
> Every time I go into a particular office I have to move chairs, desks, shredders, etc. I tell them _these shouldn't_ and _you need to_ and they hear yada, yada, yada. Nobody listens:no: "_They_" use one of my transformer rooms to store pallets of paper towels, too!:blink:


We have the fire marshal and MIOSHA inspector come through regularly and this is one of their favorite things to cite which makes it priority with our safety manager and helps with the reinforcement.


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## Carultch (May 14, 2013)

cuba_pete said:


> "_They_" use one of my transformer rooms to store pallets of paper towels, too!:blink:


You aren't prohibited from using the entire room for storage, you just need to not use the working space and egress path for storage.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Carultch said:


> Working space is a big issue, because you have to coordinate it with other trades, many of whom may not be concerned with it or thinking about it.
> .


I've spent a career doing that Carultch, Arhy's EE's, GC's and everything inbetween. It's not like 110 is greek either...

Like Pete says, nobody listens.

Part of the problem is the EI's out there. They all want to lecture me on the issue, because i'm the _'electrician' _, which is their primary target daily

They need to realize it's _not us_, and bang a few heads.

As long as we're expected to be the NEC's liason to the world , we should be backed up when needed

~CS~


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## Carultch (May 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Part of the problem is the EI's out there. They all want to lecture me on the issue, because i'm the _'electrician' _, which is their primary target daily
> 
> They need to realize it's _not us_, and bang a few heads.



The thing to remember, is that they do not cite people with violations. *They cite buildings.* A violation means that *the building does not comply*. They aren't saying it is your fault, the fault of a guy 20 years ago, the architect's fault, or whomever. And if your name is on the permit, you are the easiest guy to hold responsible.

I'd like it if the solution could be to talk to the AHJ and get a judgement call on the lesser of two violations, to build it as close to code as possible. A rank order on importance, if you will. The problem with this, is that you remind them that you are trying to get a violation through, and you will remind them to look harder for other violations. Their de-facto response could likely be _"you know the rules, stop asking for an exception"_.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well i subscribe to your point of view Carultch

I just don't see it happening .

What i get is an electrical inspection report with _'yada yada'_ on it, pass or fail.

This implies it's my bad, no pass go, no $$$....and that's how the GC's _play_ it

IMHO, what is needed is a Fire Marshal's boot in the right place if the EI is somehow incapable or unobligated to imparting it elsewhere.

The FM is the guy who addresses all the space and egress issues....as well as ultimately issues the CO (at least on commercial jobs here)

~CS~


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Carultch said:


> Working space is a big issue, because you have to coordinate it with other trades, many of whom may not be concerned with it or thinking about it.
> 
> It is very understandable that all the stuff shows up on a pallet, and you're struggling to play electrical room tetris to make it fit, all while trying to guess at the lesser of two violations.
> 
> ...


All good points. 

I would like to add to number 1. 
By the time the job is of a substantial size, you will not get the sign off on the submittals, unless you send them a drawing of the layout of the room and everything fitting. The A&E's have been burned before for accepting the submittals from the EC only to come back later and say "you approved the gear package now you pay to have the room re-built. 

For number 3. 

That is why 3-D spacial coordination is becoming common place on a lot of jobs.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Carultch said:


> You aren't prohibited from using the entire room for storage, you just need to not use the working space and egress path for storage.





Carultch said:


> I'd like to make an NEC proposal that allows NEMA3R equipment to be installed under foreign systems, as long as no requirements of the foreign systems are violated. A rainproof panelboard should be able to be installed directly under a pipe that might drip a slow leak of water, and there shouldn't be any consequences.


Seem the CMP is going in the opposite direction -They added Outdoors to the dedicated space. ---110.26(E)(2) From the 2014 NEC:

(2) Outdoor. Outdoor installations shall comply with 110.26(E)(2)(a) and (b).
(a) Installation Requirements. Outdoor electrical equipment shall be installed in suitable enclosures and shall be protected from accidental contact by unauthorized personnel, or by vehicular traffic, or by accidental spillage or leakage from piping systems. The working clearance space shall include the
zone described in 110.26(A). No architectural appurtenance or other equipment shall be located in this zone.

(b) Dedicated Equipment Space. The space equal to the width and depth of the equipment, and extending from grade to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) above the equipment, shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

cuba_pete said:


> How can you control who puts what within 36" of a panel front?



This is in a kitchen.

I like how they explain how much 36" is.


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

240.24 (C) and (D) forbid overcurrent devices from being installed where exposed to physical damage and near easily ignitable materials like clothes closets.


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

I'd be more concerned with the fact that the panel is in a closet with easily ignitible materials. 

240.24D
(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent
devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily
ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Tom Solanto said:


> I'd be more concerned with the fact that the panel is in a closet with easily ignitible materials.
> 
> 240.24D
> (D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent
> ...


The thing is, they were done this way for the longest. I do not know when the first cycle started prohibiting this type of install but I have yet to see a house fire start due to a panel in a clothes closet.


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

Actually 240.24D uses clothes closets as an example. Panels are not to be installed near easily ignitible material. Unless you are a firefighter (and you may be) how would you know how most fires start? IMO it is a good code. Thanks for the reply!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Tom Solanto said:


> Actually 240.24D uses clothes closets as an example.


What cycle was that introduced?


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

I have a 1975 NEC and it is in that year. I also have a 1971 NEC which I did not see it. Unless it was a different section at that time, I did not see it. Interestingly, the 75 version has exactly the same wording. Even references the clothes closet....


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

BuzzKill said:


> Just passed a final but not without getting my ass chewed about working space in front of a panel I replaced in a closet that is accessible by twin doors; directly opposite the panel is a stackable washer/dryer combo, which left me two feet of space between the panel and washer/dryer. I argued that you can access the panel to shut off the main and any breakers and even work on it if need be, and in the event that it needed replacing, the washer/dryer can be moved out of closet. He pissed and moaned but really, I don't think it's a big deal. :no: Thoughts?


It is a big deal, but not your fault. The fact you got chewed out for it is ridiculous.



cuba_pete said:


> I'd say not your worry.
> 
> I don't see how this responsibility can be put on the electrician most of the time. How can you control who puts what within 36" of a panel front?
> 
> ...


I agree, and would like to also say: In a panel swap out, you don't get to choose where the panel goes. The original construction crew most likely chose that location. Not the fault of a guy coming along 5, 10, or 50 years later to do a simple swap.


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