# Copper crimp sleeves



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

StarLo said:


> What do you crimp copper crimp sleeves (for residential grounding) with? I know that they make a rather large crimping tool that crimps from all 4 sides, but I was wondering if there was a smaller pliers sized tool that was approved for these?



Uh, your teeth?


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Uh, your teeth?


If only I could reach that far into the back of the box!


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

StarLo said:


> What do you crimp copper crimp sleeves (for residential grounding) with? I know that they make a rather large crimping tool that crimps from all 4 sides, but I was wondering if there was a smaller pliers sized tool that was approved for these?


Klein makes a apir of side cutters with a crimp but I use the stakon tool.









Klein


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I use a wirenut.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Klein makes a apir of side cutters with a crimp but I use the stakon tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use a stakon tool also. We use the ideal steel crimps though.


----------



## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

I've used both, Klein plier crimper, and but ideal c24 is my favorite, it's worth it. I have have mine for almost 7 years now.


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Klein makes a apir of side cutters with a crimp but I use the stakon tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have both of those, but as far as I know, they aren't the correct crimper to use on crimp sleeves.

ETA: CNC pictured the correct tool, but it's large, heavy, and expensive. I was wondering if they made a tool in the shape of a typical pliers that was rated for crimp sleeves.


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> I use a wirenut.


IMO, a waste of space and time.


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

I use the Ideal C24. No big deal, and seems to me to make a nicer
crimp, esp where there are only 2 wires.


----------



## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

CNC said:


> I've used both, Klein plier crimper, and but ideal c24 is my favorite, it's worth it. I have have mine for almost 7 years now.


 Do you find it limiting that you have to get at the crimp from the end?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Are you talking about these? If so a regular crimp tool is all that is required as far as I know.



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNFhJ5RM6G2c9k_WtliqVVe3NAOT-g&cad=rja


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Must be something about NY electricians because every crimp I have seen so far has been squeezed by a pair of lineman's.

But every post I see here has you guys using the "specialty" tool for the correct job.

I'm just making an observation that doesn't fit the numbers..


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

StarLo said:


> IMO, a waste of space and time.


Yeah boy. That one wirenut is really a space hog. And stocking crimp sleeves and a specialty tool just for them has nothing on how much extra time and space one single wirenut takes up.:jester:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Yeah boy. That one wirenut is really a space hog. And stocking crimp sleeves and a specialty tool just for them has nothing on how much extra time and space one single wirenut takes up.:jester:


Why do these threads have to turn into this? 

The guy just asked what kind of tool people use. 

I use the Klein with the crimper usually.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Why do these threads have to turn into this?
> 
> The guy just asked what kind of tool people use.
> 
> I use the Klein with the crimper usually.


Maybe Dennis will come along and close it for you.


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Yeah boy. That one wirenut is really a space hog.


 It's not just the wire nut, but the bundle of extra wires that needs to be shaped into the box. Why use more wires than necessary?


> And stocking crimp sleeves and a specialty tool just for them has nothing on how much extra time and space one single wirenut takes up.:jester:


No, I don't think it does. I have about 30-40 sleeves in the tiny pocket on my pouch (they take up a LOT less space than wire nuts) and a pair of crimpers as big as needlenose in the pouch as well. It doesn't add any time to use them, it's quicker because I don't have to find extra wire and make up tails and splice them all together and all that. I've done it both ways, I only switched to using crimp sleeves about a year ago. From experience, I can say it is a much better method.


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Maybe Dennis will come along and close it for you.


Hopefully not. I don't see any issue with this discussion in this thread.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

StarLo said:


> It's not just the wire nut, but the bundle of extra wires that needs to be shaped into the box. Why use more wires than necessary?
> No, I don't think it does. I have about 30-40 sleeves in the tiny pocket on my pouch (they take up a LOT less space than wire nuts) and a pair of crimpers as big as needlenose in the pouch as well. It doesn't add any time to use them, it's quicker because I don't have to find extra wire and make up tails and splice them all together and all that. I've done it both ways, I only switched to using crimp sleeves about a year ago. From experience, I can say it is a much better method.


I don't have a problem with crimps, per se. But I'm already carrying wirenuts and kleins. The extra piece of wire I need is right there when I trim everything to length. Really, it's six of one, half a dozen of another. I don't care. I am not belittling you for your choice. But if I were to use crimps, I'd use the Sta-Kon tool over the klein w/ crimper brecause the business end is at the tip.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Crimps are really necessary in multi-gang boxes..

I carry both sizes and when you have, say (6) switches to ground, having (6) tails is a snap instead of jumping from one switch to another..


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> Crimps are really necessary in multi-gang boxes..
> 
> I carry both sizes and when you have, say (6) switches to ground, having (6) tails is a snap instead of jumping from one switch to another..


OR I see a lot of people splice the 6 incoming grounds with 6 pigtails to go to each device, that's crazy. The crimp sleeve bonds those 6 incoming grounds together and then allows you to use the same grounds as the tails to go to each device, it makes it fast and easy.

On another note, I've always bought copper crimp sleeves because that is what they gave me at the supply house. What's the benefit of steal sleeves other than being a bit cheaper?


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I wish that people who install grounding crimp sleeves would have their d**k crimped in one. That might give them an idea how much of a bitch it is to take those things apart after the fact if you're trying to, say, cut out a box for wire fishing or to install a multi-gang box in its place.



StarLo said:


> IMO, a waste of space and time.


Gimme a break :laughing:


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I think ALL of those crimp rings should be lined up and shot.:gun_bandana:
Then we should hold a celebration on their demise.


----------



## M7B (Dec 27, 2010)

*Crimps*

I've tried it all. I think I like the steel crimps the best (cost). The grounds are pretwisted anyhow, the sleeve just keeps it from unraveling. I pretwist with my linesman and squeeze on the hollow half...Done! Not sure why you would need crimping tool? If you pretwist..it ain't going nowhere. 

Anyone know where to get a 1,000 plus of those steel crimps cheap?? I need 
2k - 5k of those a year. 

M7B


----------



## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

Mike in Canada said:


> Do you find it limiting that you have to get at the crimp from the end?


Not at all, upon makeup: twist bare grounds until they are just outside the box, slide the buchanan in the tool, poke the grounds through the hole, the crimp is made just outside the box, clip the wires you don't need leaving about 1" sticking out, and fold them back, then neatly tuck everything in the box, ground left, neutral
Middle, hot right. (receptacle box) 
Same lengths everytime, same order, wirenuts pointing up. Uniform makeup, I don't think it takes much more time. 
Definitely saves time vs. Pigtailing everything


----------



## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

erics37 said:


> I wish that people who install grounding crimp sleeves would have their d**k crimped in one. That might give them an idea how much of a bitch it is to take those things apart after the fact if you're trying to, say, cut out a box for wire fishing or to install a multi-gang box in its place.
> 
> Gimme a break :laughing:


One snip to the side of the crimp, and then grab it with the cutters, and it peels right off, I do it all the time.... Takes a few seconds.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I wish that people who install grounding crimp sleeves would have their d**k crimped in one. That might give them an idea how much of a bitch it is to take those things apart after the fact if you're trying to, say, cut out a box for wire fishing or to install a multi-gang box in its place.





Usually I can remove on in less than 30 seconds.....including picking up my knipex.....but then again as miller says I'm a legend in my own mind. Seriously they have their place. In metal cut ins especially if a gfi is going in. There are a lot of electrical tasks that suck to me. Removing a crimp sleeve to add a wire is not even on the list....wiring lay in lights is probably my most hated task.


----------



## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I wish that people who install grounding crimp sleeves would have their d**k crimped in one. That might give them an idea how much of a bitch it is to take those things apart after the fact if you're trying to, say, cut out a box for wire fishing or to install a multi-gang box in its place.


 Getting a crimp sleeve off is very easy if the sleeve was installed far enough out that it could exit the box. If the sleeve was installed int he back of the box it might be a bit harder to remove, but don;t blame the method just because someone installed it in a poor fashion.


> Gimme a break :laughing:


I gave a valid opinion. If you don't like it, prove it wrong.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There are only 6 approved tools for the installation of crimp sleeves:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> There are only 6 approved tools for the installation of crimp sleeves:


Malarky. Thats for Buchannon crimps, only six. T+B stakon's have T+B tools allowed listed the same way on their box, and that red and black handle tool in the picture above at the start of this thread is one of the listed ones.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Malarky. Thats for Buchannon crimps, only six. T+B stakon's have T+B tools allowed listed the same way on their box, and that red and black handle tool in the picture above at the start of this thread is one of the listed ones.


This thread is about copper crimp sleeves, is it not? T&B doesn't make copper crimp sleeves, if I recall properly. The thread might have changed gears part way through. I didn't read it all.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

StarLo said:


> I have both of those, but as far as I know, they aren't the correct crimper to use on crimp sleeves.
> 
> ETA: CNC pictured the correct tool, but it's large, heavy, and expensive. I was wondering if they made a tool in the shape of a typical pliers that was rated for crimp sleeves.



That red handle pliers is the correct tool for T+B stakons. The T+B catalog for pt style copper tubes lists the other allowed tools. Buchannon tools are nowhere to be found in that list.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> This thread is about copper crimp sleeves, is it not? T&B doesn't make copper crimp sleeves, if I recall properly. The thread might have changed gears part way through. I didn't read it all.


I buy nothing but T+B copper crimp barrels.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I buy nothing but T+B copper crimp barrels.


Yeah, but are they copper or not? I thought they were yellow chromated steel.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, but are they copper or not? I thought they were yellow chromated steel.



I think they are steel like the ideal ones we use.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I think they are steel like the ideal ones we use.


Ask for pt-107m's All copper.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

I twist the grounds together tight 3-4 full turns slide the crimp on and flaten it with my linemans. You don't need to crimp them... are the grounds moving inside the box after the devices are installed? No. 

By flatening them with linemans it makes it easy in the future to take it off. Just squeeze the barrel with the linemans and it slides right off.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

pawirenut said:


> I twist the grounds together tight 3-4 full turns slide the crimp on and flaten it with my linemans. You don't need to crimp them... are the grounds moving inside the box after the devices are installed? No.
> 
> By flatening them with linemans it makes it easy in the future to take it off. Just squeeze the barrel with the linemans and it slides right off.


Violates the listing.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Violates the listing.


Yes i know but it's done all the time around here. The main thing is to make sure all the grounds are bonded together tightly. I never had a problem with inspections either.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

pawirenut said:


> Yes i know but it's done all the time around here. The main thing is to make sure all the grounds are bonded together tightly. I never had a problem with inspections either.


You could fill this whole forum with the list of things that pass inspection that rightfully should not.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> You could fill this whole forum with the list of things that pass inspection that rightfully should not.


 
So tell me what is going to make the grounds come apart inside the box after they have been twisted 3-4 times tightly?

A wind storm in the box?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

pawirenut said:


> So tell me what is going to make the grounds come apart inside the box after they have been twisted 3-4 times tightly?
> 
> A wind storm in the box?


If they are tight nothing will. I'm an oldtimer. We didn't used to have to do anything to the ends of the twists at all - code ok back then.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> If they are tight nothing will. I'm an oldtimer. We didn't used to have to do anything to the ends of the twists at all - code ok back then.


That's completely untrue. It might have passed inspection, but there was always a code requirement to mechanically join them somehow. Choose the code cycle, and I'll post the text if you don't believe me.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

pawirenut said:


> So tell me what is going to make the grounds come apart inside the box after they have been twisted 3-4 times tightly?
> 
> A wind storm in the box?


It makes no difference what you think, what I think, what you do, what I do, what everyone else does, or what the inspectors will pass. It matters only what the code says. 

In the end, do whatever you want. Makes not a bit of difference to me.


----------



## pawirenut (May 28, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> That's completely untrue. It might have passed inspection, but there was always a code requirement to mechanically join them somehow. Choose the code cycle, and I'll post the text if you don't believe me.


 
And mine are mechanically connected with a crimp just not crimped i use my linemans.

I know the codes and i often try to exceed them whenever possible.

But for something as minor as not using a crimper tool for a crimp i wont lose sleep over.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> That's completely untrue. It might have passed inspection, but there was always a code requirement to mechanically join them somehow. Choose the code cycle, and I'll post the text if you don't believe me.


I believe you. It wasn't enforced around here though till about 85. I guess I just figured it wasn't a requirement.


----------



## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

You can use a green wirenut and stick the tail through the hole at the top for the device


----------



## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

just twisting the grounds together does not meet code. Also remember the NEC is the minimal requirement of a legal installtaion. I was just at a seminar for CEU's. The speaker was from Philadelphia and works as an expert witness frequently. He referred to the NEC as "just enough to keep you out of jail."


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> You could fill this whole forum with the list of things that pass inspection that rightfully should not.


You could also fill the forum with things that wouldn't pass inspection for no reason other than some engineer who never installed, will never install nor has any idea HOW to install a product says it can only be done this way.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BurtiElectric said:


> You can use a green wirenut and stick the tail through the hole at the top for the device


Really? OMG!! We should tell everybody! :laughing:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BurtiElectric said:


> He referred to the NEC as "just enough to keep you out of jail."


I must disagree with this guy. It is minimal but it has lots of room for error as we all see daily.


----------



## M7B (Dec 27, 2010)

*Code*



BurtiElectric said:


> just twisting the grounds together does not meet code. Also remember the NEC is the minimal requirement of a legal installtaion. I was just at a seminar for CEU's. The speaker was from Philadelphia and works as an expert witness frequently. He referred to the NEC as "just enough to keep you out of jail."



Probably not. But I twist back at least 5 inch of copper with linesman...then copper crimp with linesman. The grounds have a much better connection because of the volume of copper twisted than relying on a crimp with a low volume of surface area. I'm doing it that way until they make me do it otherwise.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BurtiElectric said:


> just twisting the grounds together does not meet code. Also remember the NEC is the minimal requirement of a legal installtaion. I was just at a seminar for CEU's. The speaker was from Philadelphia and works as an expert witness frequently. He referred to the NEC as "just enough to keep you out of jail."


Typical claptrap you get from an "expert" witness who is actually in the business of impressing jury's and smelly old lawyers who got promoted to judge. (not a swipe at any members who do this such as Pierre who I know to be very caring about his trade, maybe just a little too much at times, and he wears tools, -more about the pens in the shirt pocket type of expert electrical witness)


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

If I wired a lot of houses, I'd use crimps and the crimp tool.

I don't so it makes more sense just to use a wirenut. One less tool and one less tiny thing to fish out of my bag.


----------

