# how long to install a receptacle or light switch?



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Depends on how many devices you destroy if you use an impact driver.

Seriously, I go $80 per point for standard switches and receptacles plus AFCI. That's rough in and finish.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

99cents said:


> Depends on how many devices you destroy if you use an impact driver.


What? I don't see a connection between the two. :wink:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

New work with the wiring all ready to go and identified, grounds made up, long wires, large plastic boxes. Realistically it should take a matter of minutes per device.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

:wink: Sorry, Hack, I couldn't help myself.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Depends on where you're getting power from, how far from source to device, even with open walls, time can vary widely between a simple recep. install, and a switch, since a switch usually requires a lighting outlet also. Could range from a half hour to, several hours depending on conditions.
It's like asking how long it would take to run a stick of 1/2"EMT. Depends on if it's a straight run on drywall, or has 2 90's, an offset, and a kick, on a block wall.
By "first level" apprentice, does that mean 1st year? That's a major variable also. Some first years have years of non-union experience, some have zero.
Estimating from a print can overlook real world conditions. The "fudge factor" can be challenging. And it can make you, or break you.
What I'm trying to say is, there is no simple answer.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Are you estimating mere trim-out ?

That would be weird.

#12 is not going to be same as #14...

And so forth.


----------



## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

I figure a .5 hour per device, .5 hr per hr and see where that puts me. That is rough and finish, and troubleshooting because I work with ******s....


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd budget 10 minutes per for someone proficient, 15 minutes per for a beginner.


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

About 10 minutes


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Don't forget clean up(include taking garbage off site), set up(tools/material), lay out, site condition (estimate moderate traffic at least), project management. Some jobs are more walking then working too if on a hill for instance. 

Ultimately the time to actually do the task is about half the job.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

telsa said:


> Are you estimating mere trim-out ?
> 
> That would be weird.
> 
> ...


Don't I know it. Also putting the lights up, and a few other odds and ends. The electrician who did the rough in apparently was not interested in coming back to do the finish work.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I can install all the devices on a 1500 sq ft 
house , including running around with the boxes
and tossing the devices below the switch or 
receptacle box it goes to in about an hour & a half.

But no friggin way I'm only charging an hour & a half.

If you are taking over a roughed in project , this is
the least of your concerns.

How do you know the previous electrician hasn't
booby trapped a bunch of s**t just in case he's
not called back" ..I do it because when I'm called back
I know what to do.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Islander said:


> Don't I know it. Also putting the lights up, and a few other odds and ends. The electrician who did the rough in apparently was not interested in coming back to do the finish work.


Now THAT'S weird.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

lighterup said:


> I can install all the devices on a 1500 sq ft
> house , including running around with the boxes
> and tossing the devices below the switch or
> receptacle box it goes to in about an hour & a half.
> ...


That's not idle speculation. :devil3:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> That's not idle speculation. :devil3:


Damn right...it's not uncommon that happy HO 
will sign a contract ..worded in simple 8th grade level
English for me to do the whole job , but not call back 
for the finish...they either want to beat someone up 
on a lower price or do it themselves.

I got all kinds of Lighter-up tricks up my sleeve to
say the least. 3 way commons ..fugeddah boud id
( i know any self respecting electrician can figure this
out just by looking in the box...but HO?:crying
Lines & loads reversed @ gfci's...4 ways twisted up 
by matching colors..heh-heh...homeruns marked in
Aramaic...none landed in the panel until finish...
receptacle outlets circuits left open here or there
(I have to mark those on the print or I'll forget)


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

some of the answers are for rough + trim but sounds like your talking about trimming out only

if roughed in normally, 6 minutes each,

usually can do in less but have to go outside to smoke nowadays, so 10 per hour is average.

30 years ago, when I could smoke while working, average time was less. Either that or hands and knees are 30 years older.

someone elses rough-in may be different, I remember one that romexes were not stripped, also cut short so may have only been an inch out of box, took approximately forever


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

The first guy I worked for was only about 4' tall on his best days and a real [email protected]@hole to work for. If it took you longer than a minute to put a device in and cover on you did not stay. That was single pole, 3way ,4way , standard receptacle ,split wired switched receptacle or what ever. 
To make a long story short I did not stay.
Realistically if the box is in a good straight stud and the sheetrockers were accurate with there cuts about 1 every 5 minutes would be a good number.
The last side work I did I think I worked a hour and a half to get a receptacle to look right in a bathroom. The box was on a rough sawed oak 2X4 that was twisted it was just horrible and then I had to order super jumbo plates from Amazon because the rockers must have used a ax to cut the hole in the rock. 
Next time if faced with that problem I will use a 4"sq with a plaster ring on a L bracket like on a commercial job.

LC


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Islander said:


> Don't I know it. Also putting the lights up, and a few other odds and ends. The electrician who did the rough in apparently was not interested in coming back to do the finish work.


I would do this T&M only, never a quote. 

The reason being that the guy who roughed it may have goofed it up royally and does not want to deal with the large mess he has created.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

lighterup said:


> I can install all the devices on a 1500 sq ft
> house , including running around with the boxes
> and tossing the devices below the switch or
> receptacle box it goes to in about an hour & a half.
> ...


How long to do all the trim? ie. ceiling/wall, bathroom, exterior light fixtures, smokies, door bell, D/W Disp. whips, A/C condenser disco, F.A.U., elec. water heater, can trims........The WHOLE package.


----------



## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

If it is new construction months .
If you want me to put a recpt in with plate seconds .
I once worked on a job where the first real trim device was two years .


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

The typical timming is about 10 minuites average but with straight foward clean box it should be no more than 6 min tops depending on what it is in the box.

Two gang or larger box will take little longer depending on what it is in there.

If properly marked or noted then it is a breeze to do it. 

Anything else that will varies depending on what it have to be done.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Islander said:


> Don't I know it. Also putting the lights up, and a few other odds and ends. The electrician who did the rough in apparently was not interested in coming back to do the finish work.


A take over?

Okay, first thing you need to do is figure out why the original guy left. If it was a money dispute, walk. The permit will tell you who he was.

You need to get your own permit. That may require the other guy to close his off.

Take over jobs can mean the HO is a little desperate to get things done. That means charging on the high side. Last time I did a take over, I gave a maximum price and said I would charge less if it went well. I found some deficiencies so it went for max.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

99cents said:


> A take over?
> 
> Okay, first thing you need to do is figure out why the original guy left. If it was a money dispute, walk. The permit will tell you who he was.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, there will be a permit involved, for sure. The original was already closed over a year ago.

Not sure why the original guy didn't return. I am only hearing one side of the story, and I don't know who the original EC was.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The OP is making the crazy assumption that the original electrician WAS an electrician.

And that the rough-in was correctly performed.

I wouldn't.

This is the wrong time to show up -- you not only have to act like an electrician -- the stuff actually has to work.

Oh, my !

There could well be a LOT of pampers involved.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I've had issues with every take-over that I touched and will not be doing one again.

There are ALWAYS problems. It will take you serious time to figure them out, then more time to fix them.

And remember, you are now responsible for *all the work*, even the rough work that you didn't do. As I told the last person who asked me to do this, unless they pay an extra $10,000 on top of the cost of the work in order to cover my liability from taking over someone else's work, I won't touch it.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

joebanana said:


> How long to do all the trim? ie. ceiling/wall, bathroom, exterior light fixtures, smokies, door bell, D/W Disp. whips, A/C condenser disco, F.A.U., elec. water heater, can trims........The WHOLE package.


I'd be done in about *3 days.*..but that 
don't mean I only charge for 3 days. 
I do these jobs by contract Never T&M...

Finish Phase...(*1500 sq ft home*)
* Landing home runs , installing circuit breakers 
and making up panel schedule
* Finishing unfinished / crawl space basement lighting
* Installing all devices and plate covers
* Installing 120v smokes & CO detectors
* Installing recess trims & bulbs 
* Installing door bell chime kit 
already roughed in (if applicable)
* Installing bath fan motors & trims (I provide those)
* Installing customer provided fixtures & ceiling fans
* A/C disco was already completed @ rough-in
* Air Handler is done @ rough-in 9 out of 10 times
(due to cold weather-they need it for drywallers 
mud & tape)
* Any wiring is completed at rough in to include 
electric 240 volt water heater ( but usualy is gas)

I've posted before that I've gotten looks and comments 
from the customers grumbling that I'm overcharging . 
They base it on my efficiency , but then that's why I 
don't work T & M...always contract on new homes.
I'd lose my shirt doing them T&M.

edited for clarity: All my make ups in every 
box have been done on the rough-in so I'm
talking about installing the devices on the 
already made up tails.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not scared of take overs. If the rough-in was permitted and inspected, I don't see much of an issue. I would make my scope of work on my permit well defined; that takes care of who is liable for what. In Canada, we aren't as concerned with liability anyway.

This is the kind of job I would estimate in days, not hours or minutes. If I'm done and packed up by 2:00 pm, my day is shot and I'm not going to another job after that.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> And remember, you are now responsible for *all the work*, even the rough work that you didn't do.


Is this true? Is there an automatic, legally binding assumption of liability for all prior work?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

splatz said:


> Is this true? Is there an automatic, legally binding assumption of liability for all prior work?


Splatz

I am pretty sure that holds true here in Ohio.

The logic is , if you fire it up then you surely must
have verified it was safe to do so.

To me , this would mean verifying the integrity
of the wiring done before you which obviously
is going to take time.

I recall I did a take over years ago , but it was
before the drywall was up...there was still some
rough-in work that wasn't done.

My inquiry was answered with a reasonable reason
why I was being brought in. The original contractor
had folded up mid way through what was his last
house and the house sat until someone else
bought it and took over.

Just think. If you do the rough in and are not 
called back for the finish...another EC takes over
fires up the circuits , three months later the
place crashes & burns...it's determined to be 
electrical...would you accept that liability?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Is this true? Is there an automatic, legally binding assumption of liability for all prior work?


I've spoken to multiple building departments here about this, they were very clear that the entire job was on me and I was responsible for everything, and I should inspect it all myself and replace anything that needed it. There is no "final" permit. The permit you are pulling is for the entire job, which is now your job.

A little different but similar, what often happens is people finish their basement without permits, then 10 years later they go to sell their house and they can't until the basement finish is resolved. They have to get an electrician in to pull a permit and check everything, then the city does a final inspection. That electrician is now responsible for everything. 

You can't reasonably sit there on the witness stand and say that the bad wiring that caused the house to burn down was done by someone else... when in fact you pulled a permit for the job which essentially swore that it was all done correctly.

Pulling a permit is the epitome of certifying and guaranteeing something in your company name, so when you take over a job and pull a permit, you are certifying someone else's work.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

No way would I quote a trim out where someone else roughed it like that. You can't figure it at your normal trim out efficiency, since everyone does things a little different and you will have to figure out their system. You don't know how they laid stuff out, circuited, etc, so it is going to take time to figure it out. Plus, there may be a reason why they aren't coming back to trim out. It could be they f'ed up and didn't run homeruns or something stupid like that. 

I usually figure ~40 minutes per switch location to rough and finish in new construction. The finish is the easy part if I roughed it out or know the system of whoever did. Probably 3-4 minutes each to device and plate.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm not getting this T& M garbage. 
IMO you guys doing this would be leaving 
a s**t load of money on the table.

Using Going Commando's^^^figures above...

1500 sq ft house

MAYBE...it has 120 devices in total

120 x (3 minutes) = 360 minutes / 60 minutes= 6 hrs.

You're only charging 6 hrs labor to assume all the 
responsibility/liability for this job...:no:


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

lighterup said:


> I'm not getting this T& M garbage.
> IMO you guys doing this would be leaving
> a s**t load of money on the table.
> 
> ...


Those numbers, like I said, are if I did the rough and have already taken responsibility for the job, and dont include fixtures and whatnot.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> Depends on how many devices you destroy if you use an impact driver.
> 
> Seriously, I go $80 per point for standard switches and receptacles plus AFCI. That's rough in and finish.


Damn we think alike. I was just typing that same thing and then read the rest of the thread.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Those numbers, like I said, are if I did the rough and have already taken responsibility for the job, and dont include fixtures and whatnot.


I'm just using your numbers not sighting fault with you


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Islander said:


> Yeah, I admit, seems a silly question. Still, I have never timed it, and I am putting an estimate together. So, how long does either of these tasks take you? How long for a 1st level apprentice to do the same? This is in a new build, so no old receptacle or switch to remove.
> 
> Oh, and no "cheating" in the form of using the back stab. All terminating to be done on the screws.


So if you are talking just installing devices after the rough I'd say it comes out to 15-20 minutes a device.

This is based on the fact that nobody is a robot that will walk into the job with everything they need and work start to finish with out any kind of break or trip to the van for something.

I'd double the time for a 1st year if he has a phone/email/messaging habit.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

The residential companies I worked for absolutely back stabbed when possible.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> The residential companies I worked for absolutely back stabbed when possible.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Still doesn't make it a good connection that is 100%.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I figure it takes about 5 minutes or so, so I would bid 15 to include all the small **** and breaks ect.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I figure it takes about 5 minutes or so, so I would bid 15 to include all the small **** and breaks ect.


Deja vu!

But that's cool!


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bidding a take over against another contractor is not a wise way to go.

Bidding a take over to give a rough estimate with all kind of stipulations is different.

You want to make GOOD money from this and not be held liable for anything outside your scope of services.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I see a huge grey area here. If I re-device a house, am I responsible for the wiring? If I do a panel swap, I have touched every circuit. Am I liable? Those of us who do renovation work are always blending old with new. It's just the nature of the beast. While I need to be aware of liability, I can't be paralyzed by it.


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Your first bid could be to spot check every connection, megger every circuit, and trace every circuit. Somewhere around 20 minutes a switch/receptacle opening, 30 minutes for anything on an 8' ceiling. 

Then if anything looks fishy you don't have to contract to trim.

If everything looks good then you'll have an easy number to make with on site information to make a solid bid to finish.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> Bidding a take over against another contractor is not a wise way to go.
> 
> Bidding a take over to give a rough estimate with all kind of stipulations is different.
> 
> You want to make GOOD money from this and *not be held liable for anything outside your scope of services*.



Sometimes that is easier said than done.

Most customers go by the "you were the last one to touch it" rule!


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

lighterup said:


> I'd be done in about *3 days.*..but that
> don't mean I only charge for 3 days.
> I do these jobs by contract Never T&M...
> 
> ...


Thanks for that clarification.
When I first read your post, I thought "dam, this guy's friggin' fast, if I ever do residential again (it'll never happen) I need to hire this guy. (@going rate of a buck a hole) (just kiddin').
Then I realized it was only P&S. You had me thinking that, back when I was a youngster, trimmin', I was moving at an "old man" pace, only doin' 2-3 to 4 bdrm. houses a day, hauling azz all day, but that was everything, the whole package. 
Now I don't feel so bad, thanks.


----------



## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So if you are talking just installing devices after the rough I'd say it comes out to 15-20 minutes a device.
> 
> This is based on the fact that nobody is a robot that will walk into the job with everything they need and work start to finish with out any kind of break or trip to the van for something.
> 
> I'd double the time for a 1st year *if he has a phone/email/messaging habit.*


Somehow this really pissed me off :vs_mad: *accidentally slaps phone out of his hands*


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> The residential companies I worked for absolutely back stabbed when possible.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


 I use the hole in my strippers to bend the hooks on the ends of the wires immediately after stripping the insulation off. I have my M12 impact gun in my hand already because I’ll need it to screw receptacle into the box. So tightening down the screws on the wires doesn’t take much more time than backstabbing.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I see a huge grey area here. If I re-device a house, am I responsible for the wiring? If I do a panel swap, I have touched every circuit. Am I liable? Those of us who do renovation work are always blending old with new. It's just the nature of the beast. While I need to be aware of liability, I can't be paralyzed by it.


You are talking about two completely different situations. Renovation only includes your scope of work. But when you take over a job, that permit includes the entire job. There’s no such thing as a final permit. When you pull that permit, it’s not just for trimming out, it’s for the entire job that you took over including all the previous contractors work.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You are talking about two completely different situations. Renovation only includes your scope of work. But when you take over a job, that permit includes the entire job. There’s no such thing as a final permit. When you pull that permit, it’s not just for trimming out, it’s for the entire job that you took over including all the previous contractors work.


Different here. I had a job last year where the GC went bust and the EC bailed. The permit was still open. The rough-in inspection had been done. The inspector contacted the original EC and had him close the permit. That enabled me to do the finish and panel swap on my permit. There was a nice, shiny new Siemens panel already on site.

Sometimes I like a well defined scope on my permit.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Arrow3030 said:


> Your first bid could be to spot check every connection, megger every circuit, and trace every circuit. Somewhere around 20 minutes a switch/receptacle opening, 30 minutes for anything on an 8' ceiling.
> 
> Then if anything looks fishy you don't have to contract to trim.
> 
> If everything looks good then you'll have an easy number to make with on site information to make a solid bid to finish.


Why would you megger every circuit?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

StriickeN said:


> Somehow this really pissed me off :vs_mad: *accidentally slaps phone out of his hands*


You aren't the only one it pisses off!

I've warned them once, the second time I take the phone for the day.

The third time they are gone.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you megger every circuit?


To insure that each circuit doesn't have a short of some kind, like a real tight clamp that a regular ohm reading won't show.

Megging each circuit before flipping on the breaker is standard practice anywhere I worked.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Different here. I had a job last year where the GC went bust and the EC bailed. The permit was still open. The rough-in inspection had been done. The inspector contacted the original EC and had him close the permit. That enabled me to do the finish and panel swap on my permit. There was a nice, shiny new Siemens panel already on site.
> 
> Sometimes I like a well defined scope on my permit.


Yes, the first EC has to close their permit, but there is no dividing line between permits. Unless you have a completely separate permit for rough and final...?

Just because there is a rough inspection, it doesn't mean that it is separate. When you pulled that permit, it was for the entire job.

Now if all you did was a panel swap, and that's all you pulled a permit for, then of course that is separate. But if you had to trim out the work that the other EC did, you are responsible for that work.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Megging each circuit before flipping on the breaker is standard practice anywhere I worked.


Mars?


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you megger every circuit?


If you're already running around with an ohm meter to trace every circuit why not use a megger? 

It may seem over the top but so does trusting someone else's work you know nothing about.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Yes, the first EC has to close their permit, but there is no dividing line between permits. Unless you have a completely separate permit for rough and final...?
> 
> Just because there is a rough inspection, it doesn't mean that it is separate. When you pulled that permit, it was for the entire job.
> 
> Now if all you did was a panel swap, and that's all you pulled a permit for, then of course that is separate. But if you had to trim out the work that the other EC did, you are responsible for that work.


It would be up to Islander to decide how it works in his jurisdiction. Personally, I don't have concerns here.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Mars?


No on quality jobs I guess that's why you are so surprised.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No on quality jobs I guess that's why you are so surprised.


Never happened.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> I see a huge grey area here. If I re-device a house, am I responsible for the wiring? If I do a panel swap, I have touched every circuit. Am I liable? Those of us who do renovation work are always blending old with new. It's just the nature of the beast. While I need to be aware of liability, I can't be paralyzed by it.


That is BY FAR the best post you have ever made on this forum.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> It would be up to Islander to decide how it works in his jurisdiction. Personally, I don't have concerns here.


There is always that chance that it might be different, but I seriously doubt it. What jurisdictions has separate permits for rough and final? Where is the definitive line between the two? 

The permit is for the job and has different levels of progress inspections. Trench, service, rough, final, etc.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you megger every circuit?


Why wouldn't you, is a better question?


----------



## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

11 minutes. 
That was the number used back when I took estimating classes. It includes all down time ie walking to other receptacles, gathering stock and problems that may arise ie having to use caddy Ls for holes that are too big etc etc


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No on quality jobs I guess that's why you are so surprised.


Every data center we test one of the line items is testing all branch circuit before energizing. Phase to ground and neutral to ground (after isolating the neutral).

Generally, we exclude this as it is hard to nail down when we are needed so we leave it on the EC's plate

Just bid a hospital where it is required plus a VD test on every receptacle, labor intensive.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Every data center...


 We aren't talking about a data center who is paying you premium rate for your union guys to test everything.

We are talking about a house in which 99.99999999% of EC's who do this work don't even own a megger, and those who do certainly wouldn't use it on new wiring.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> There is always that chance that it might be different, but I seriously doubt it. What jurisdictions has separate permits for rough and final? Where is the definitive line between the two?
> 
> The permit is for the job and has different levels of progress inspections. Trench, service, rough, final, etc.


My jurisdiction. I write the scope of work on the permit application and it gets processed. The inspector can only inspect what is on the permit. I guess if there are holes then somebody can ask questions, maybe hold up an occupancy permit if it is determined that a thorough electrical inspection was not performed.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> My jurisdiction. I write the scope of work on the permit application and it gets processed. The inspector can only inspect what is on the permit. I guess if there are holes then somebody can ask questions, maybe hold up an occupancy permit if it is determined that a thorough electrical inspection was not performed.


I am going to stick with "If you take over a job, you are liable for the entire job, even if someone else started it". That's a sensible thing to live by.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> We aren't talking about a data center who is paying you premium rate for your union guys to test everything.
> 
> We are talking about a house in which 99.99999999% of EC's who do this work don't even own a megger, and those who do certainly wouldn't use it on new wiring.



From the panel 5 minutes unless you have an issue, then you found a problem, Not all that difficult.

With AFCIs being the norm I would think a meggering would be normal procedure. It takes no time and gives you the assurance you have a system free of shorts. 

We are in our 5th weekend (6 guys every weekend) at an office building isolating neutrals that we meggered by us and found shorted to ground. We cleared 2 floors and this weekend on a follow-up test we found Net Currents the floors were just remodelled. We explained to the EC what they should do in regards to installing all new work. He does not have a megger and now
someone is going to have to pay us to go back and clear the floors again/


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> From the panel 5 minutes unless you have an issue, then you found a problem, Not all that difficult.


 I never said it was difficult, I just said that it doesn't happen.



> With AFCIs being the norm I would think a meggering would be normal procedure.


 It's just not. We can talk about why it should be all day, but it's not not something that is done.

If you want to talk about what _should_ be done, EC's should use legal Americans who are on a payroll and are experienced and skilled electrician to rope houses. But in the real world they use Mexicans laborers.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> Every data center we test one of the line items is testing all branch circuit before energizing. Phase to ground and neutral to ground (after isolating the neutral).
> 
> Generally, we exclude this as it is hard to nail down when we are needed so we leave it on the EC's plate
> 
> Just bid a hospital where it is required plus a VD test on every receptacle, labor intensive.


The places where I did work like this were medical imaging facilities (MRI/CAT), hospitals, and military/government facilities.

Many contracts required a log of what each circuit megged for future reference.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> We aren't talking about a data center who is paying you premium rate for your union guys to test everything.
> 
> We are talking about a house in which 99.99999999% of EC's who do this work don't even own a megger, and those who do certainly wouldn't use it on new wiring.


If an electrician is going to take the responsibility for wiring he didn't install or supervise the install of then he is a fool if he just goes flipping on breakers to wiring that could be damaged and cause a problem.

I'd never do it with out a meg reading myself.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If an electrician is going to take the responsibility for wiring he didn't install or supervise the install of then he is a fool if he just goes flipping on breakers to wiring that could be damaged and cause a problem.
> 
> I'd never do it with out a meg reading myself.


I agree. As I said at the beginning, I believe it's foolish to take on this type of job without a very large premium to cover all the work inspecting it as well as extra for liability alone.

My only contention is people saying it's normal to megger all jobs when talking about resi. It's just not a realistic thing.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I agree. As I said at the beginning, I believe it's foolish to take on this type of job without a very large premium to cover all the work inspecting it as well as extra for liability alone.
> 
> My only contention is people saying it's normal to megger all jobs when talking about resi. It's just not a realistic thing.


Smoke test is good enough for me.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I agree. As I said at the beginning, I believe it's foolish to take on this type of job without a very large premium to cover all the work inspecting it as well as extra for liability alone.
> 
> My only contention is people saying it's normal to megger all jobs when talking about resi. It's just not a realistic thing.


I've not worked for any company that really did resi on a other than a very limited basis since leaving my Uncle when I was a teenager.


Any job I've done I megger anything that could be in question.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

brian john said:


> Why wouldn't you, is a better question?


Because it brings no real value to any type of resi job. If something is ****ed up a megger isn't going to catch it anyway. Just spend another 4 hours on a job.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Megged a restaurant that had a fire. I thought all the lighting circuits were cooked until I found a wall of dimmer switches.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Because it brings no real value to any type of resi job. *If something is ****ed up a megger isn't going to catch it anyway.* Just spend another 4 hours on a job.


If you never meg anything how would you know this?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> We aren't talking about a data center who is paying you premium rate for your union guys to test everything.
> 
> We are talking about a house in which 99.99999999% of EC's who do this work don't even own a megger, and those who do certainly wouldn't use it on new wiring.


I agree with this and not cause I'm seeking brownie points
with Hackworks.

It's new NMC...I could see continuity testing , but meggering???
On new wiring?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I am going to stick with "If you take over a job, you are liable for the entire job, even if someone else started it". That's a sensible thing to live by.


I posed this question before and here it is again.

I'm agreeing with Hackworks here...If it was reversed and you
were the EC that got the boot after rough-in and another EC takes
over the Finish , P&S , fires it up and 3 weeks later the place 
burns down ...Fire Marshal determines "electrical"...

Here come the lawyers. If they came your way would you then say
...Yeah...I roughed it in ...I guess I'll take this one on the chin?

H**l no you wouldn't! Of course not.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I agree with this and not cause I'm seeking brownie points
> with Hackworks.
> 
> It's new NMC...I could see continuity testing , but meggering???
> On new wiring?


1. Clamps/staples too tight

2. Nail in a wire/cable

3. Bad cable

4. Wire/cable damaged by plumber's torch use

5. Roofing screw through cable/emt

All things I have seen short out wiring.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If you never meg anything how would you know this?


I have 3, difference is that I know when to use them. Never been used on a resi job.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I posed this question before and here it is again.
> 
> I'm agreeing with Hackworks here...If it was reversed and you
> were the EC that got the boot after rough-in and another EC takes
> ...


Exactly. All the first EC has to say is that the work was incomplete and he didn't get a chance to finish it properly. That liability is on the second EC who came in and took over the job.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

What we need now is for someone to bring up the stitch in time crap.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I have 3, difference is that I know when to use them. Never been used on a resi job.


From the negative way you talk about meggers I didn't think you'd own ONE!

I'd worry more about a resi (romex) job than MC or EMT job.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> From the negative way you talk about meggers I didn't think you'd own ONE!
> 
> I'd worry more about a resi (romex) job than MC or EMT job.


More faults with MC than any other wiring method. Mainly from the dolts that are to goo to use a MC cutter and think they can use their *****.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Around here, ***** on MC is a firing offense.

The AHJ actually FLIP OUT if they detect it.

No Roto-Split = You can't even walk on to the job.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 1. Clamps/staples too tight
> 
> 2. Nail in a wire/cable
> 
> ...



Things are starting to add up in my head, and this job may simply not be worth it. What I have seen of the wiring, and what I have heard about the people doing it... yeah, I dunno about this.

Plus, the HO (who is the one running this show, not an EC), is coming across as being a bit too cheap for my liking.

Oh, and I don't own a megger (yet), so that test is off the table.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

99cents said:


> My jurisdiction. I write the scope of work on the permit application and it gets processed. The inspector can only inspect what is on the permit. I guess if there are holes then somebody can ask questions, maybe hold up an occupancy permit if it is determined that a thorough electrical inspection was not performed.


Here are the checkbox options for a request for inspection here in BC:


- Work-in-Progress Assessment

- 180-Day Safety Check Assessment

- Final Assessment

- Rough Wiring-Complete Assessment

- Rough Wiring-Partial Assessment

- Service Connection Assessment

When applying for a permit online, there is a space on the screen to detail the work that you are doing.

As for the liability issues of finishing a job that someone else has started... I honestly don't know where the line is as far as who is responsible for what.

What I have gleaned from the HO is that three young guys were doing the work, and that they may or may not have all been apprentices. Apparently they were left unsupervised by the guy who was hired by the HO.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Islander said:


> Things are starting to add up in my head, and this job may simply not be worth it. What I have seen of the wiring, and what I have heard about the people doing it... yeah, I dunno about this.
> 
> Plus, the HO (who is the one running this show, not an EC), is coming across as being a bit too cheap for my liking.
> 
> Oh, and I don't own a megger (yet), so that test is off the table.


Good enough for basic wiring:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Supco-M500-500VDC-Line-Powered-Megohmmeter/162806269?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1122&adid=22222222227042224197&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=106304282357&wl4=pla-293284816397&wl5=9008525&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=162806269&wl13=&veh=sem


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Islander said:


> Here are the checkbox options for a request for inspection here in BC:
> 
> 
> - Work-in-Progress Assessment
> ...


Those options are for inspections, not for different permits. The permit is for the job, which also includes what the prior contractor did.

This is not only about liability in case something goes wrong such as fire/shock. It's also about getting it to work in the first place. No one, not the inspector, AHJ, or the homeowner, is going to accept lights and outlets not working because you say that you were only there to install the lights and outlets and the issues with the wiring was the prior ECs responsibility. When you pull that permit for the job you are responsible to get it working correctly and safely.

As you said in your earlier post, this customer seems cheap, which means even without the extra liability this would be a crappy job. Walk away. :smile:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> More faults with MC than any other wiring method. Mainly from the dolts that are to goo to use a MC cutter and think they can use their *****.


and no ant shorts


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

customer is coming across as "cheap"?

Hate to toot my own horn , but did i not suggest this
earlier as 1 of 2 reasons an HO cuts EC off after rough-in?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Cheap customer makes all other discussion meaningless.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> Cheap customer makes all other discussion meaningless.


Yes...that's when i look at the imagenary wrist watch
I have on and go..."ah! Jeez! Look at the time!...I have
got to..."


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Islander said:


> What I have gleaned from the HO is that three young guys were doing the work, and that they may or may not have all been apprentices. Apparently they were left unsupervised by the guy who was hired by the HO.


That should be enough info for you to walk.

I bet there were issues with payment as well.

Actually, you should run!


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> More faults with MC than any other wiring method. Mainly from the dolts that are to goo to use a MC cutter and think they can use their *****.


I'm that good.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

eddy current said:


> That should be enough info for you to walk.
> 
> I bet there were issues with payment as well.
> 
> Actually, you should run!


I had done some math last night, and sent the guy an estimate. That was before I had read all your responses. 

He called me today, and said it was too much (the guy who did the rough in, and apparently did shoddy work, quoted him less to do the finish work). I didn't flinch, and said that was the price. I took into account extra time to troubleshoot faulty circuits, just to give me some leeway. 

He gave me a couple of weeks to call him, in case I change my mind. 

Nope. :vs_no_no_no:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Islander said:


> I had done some math last night, and sent the guy an estimate. That was before I had read all your responses.
> 
> He called me today, and said it was too much (the guy who did the rough in, and apparently did shoddy work, quoted him less to do the finish work). I didn't flinch, and said that was the price. I took into account extra time to troubleshoot faulty circuits, just to give me some leeway.
> 
> ...


You should punch him.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I've spoken to multiple building departments here about this, they were very clear that the entire job was on me and I was responsible for everything, and I should inspect it all myself and replace anything that needed it. There is no "final" permit. The permit you are pulling is for the entire job, which is now your job.


Reaching back a bit - I understand and agree that you are _responsible_ for the whole job if you pick up the permit, but that's not exactly the same as _liable_ for the other party's work. As @99cents points out you are always managing liability and dealing with prior work. In this case the responsibility for the permit is manageable, IMO. 

Now the things I am going to ask for are going to be rejected if the homeowner is really just a chiseler looking to save a few bucks by finding some bottomfeeder to finish the job. That is exactly what's supposed to happen, you weed them out. And obviously I would pass if it isn't a potentially lucrative job. 

A few points for the agreement: 

Explicit disclaimer, exemption from any warranty, and waiver of liability for prior work. 

Not responsible for any deficiencies, violations, etc. discovered by the AHJ inspector on prior work, these deficiencies to be resolved at additional cost and will affect the completion of work. 

Before scheduling trim out / completion of job, I'll have to examine the existing work on a T&M basis. (This is the part that will scare off all the chiselers.) This is where I'd do a visual inspection, load calc if it's iffy, trace everything, megger everything, figure out every switch. 
@Islander - if you don't have a megger, add the $500 for a megger into your price. Simple. This isn't the kind of work where not having the needed tools is an excuse for not using them. You either get your hands on the right equipment to do the job or you pass. As an employee, it's OK to do your best with what's on hand. As a contractor, that does not fly. 

This is where I'd find any time bombs or Aramaic left by @lighterup etc. My goal here is to find what can be found, and make it so I can zip through trim out at the usual pace. Any problems or issues discovered must be addressed (and paid for) before trim out. 

If there's a problem there could be a lawsuit but lets face it the American system is anyone can sue anyone for anything and they might win. But I think with the above in place you're fairly well protected unless there's some anti-contractor law in place in your locale.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Islander said:


> I had done some math last night, and sent the guy an estimate. That was before I had read all your responses.
> 
> He called me today, and said it was too much (the guy who did the rough in, and apparently did shoddy work, quoted him less to do the finish work). I didn't flinch, and said that was the price. I took into account extra time to troubleshoot faulty circuits, just to give me some leeway.
> 
> ...


You should call him back in a few weeks and quote him a higher price.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Reaching back a bit - I understand and agree that you are _responsible_ for the whole job if you pick up the permit, but that's not exactly the same as _liable_ for the other party's work. As @99cents points out you are always managing liability and dealing with prior work. In this case the responsibility for the permit is manageable, IMO.


 As I posted earlier, I don't agree with the comparison that 99cents made. When an EC does a renovation, there is a clear cut line between the work, and you are only responsible and liable for what you did. You pull the permit for only your work, which is the way the system is setup. The prior work was completely finished and the permit was closed out. Solid, no intermingling.

In the instance of this thread, when you pull the permit, you are not only responsible for the trim, but everything before it as well.

You are pulling the permit for the whole job, which includes the existing wiring that the other EC did. You are responsible to get those lights and outlets working and liable if something goes wrong.

There is no rough permit and final permit. The job was only partially done, and when you pull the permit you are taking over the entire job.

We are not talking about one EC doing some lights and the other EC doing other lights. We are talking about one EC doing part of the wiring and the other EC doing another part of the same wiring. The end product is the responsibility of the second EC who took the job over. <--- That there is the main point, we are not talking about multiple ECs working in unison on totally different parts of the job, we are talking about one EC backing out and the second EC taking the job over.



> Now the things I am going to ask for are going to be rejected if the homeowner is really just a chiseler looking to save a few bucks by finding some bottomfeeder to finish the job. That is exactly what's supposed to happen, you weed them out. And obviously I would pass if it isn't a potentially lucrative job.
> 
> A few points for the agreement:
> 
> ...


I have a feeling that your lawyer would tell you that it's not as easy as you think, as long as you are clear about the permit process and the fact that there is no definitive demarcation between the work since you will be taking over the job itself.



> If there's a problem there could be a lawsuit but lets face it the American system is anyone can sue anyone for anything and they might win. But I think with the above in place you're fairly well protected unless there's some anti-contractor law in place in your locale.


I don't think there is any protection at all and this would be a very bad risk to take on.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

everything about this job has red flags written all over it. You did the right thing even though I know how tough that can be.


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

TGGT said:


> You should call him back in a few weeks and quote him a higher price.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


:vs_laugh:


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Islander said:


> :vs_laugh:


Yeah tell him you decided to review your quote 
and actually missed a few items ....sssoooo......


----------



## Islander (Jul 11, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Good enough for basic wiring:
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Supco-M500-500VDC-Line-Powered-Megohmmeter/162806269?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1122&adid=22222222227042224197&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=106304282357&wl4=pla-293284816397&wl5=9008525&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=162806269&wl13=&veh=sem


Amazing what you Americanos can buy from Wallymart. Or Home Depot. Or amazon. Or any other store that we have up here in Canada.


----------



## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

*cant see it*



joebanana said:


> How long to do all the trim? ie. ceiling/wall, bathroom, exterior light fixtures, smokies, door bell, D/W Disp. whips, A/C condenser disco, F.A.U., elec. water heater, can trims........The WHOLE package.


I HATE trimming out some other persons roughin 
by hate I mean
I won't do it


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Islander said:


> He gave me a couple of weeks to call him, in case I change my mind.


:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> More faults with MC than any other wiring method. Mainly from the dolts that are to goo to use a MC cutter and think they can use their *****.


I must be a dolt... I have always used my side cutters to cut small AC90 (bx) or a hack saw to cut the larger stuff...

I have only ever saw a "bx cutter" in a picture, I have never seen one in real life... I class them with unicorns I think 

Cheers
John


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I had a roto split for one day. Hated it, took it back, always strip armoured cable with *****. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

If pigtails are in and all you need to do is trim out I would say 5 minutes per device. I actually have timed myself and if I was really trying to move fast I could wire a duplex receptacle in about 65 seconds. It really depends on your pace. Everyone is different.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I had a roto split for one day. Hated it, took it back, always strip armoured cable with *****.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


You hated the fact that it did a job fast, safely and better than *****?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> I must be a dolt... I have always used my side cutters to cut small AC90 (bx) or a hack saw to cut the larger stuff...
> 
> I have only ever saw a "bx cutter" in a picture, I have never seen one in real life... I class them with unicorns I think
> 
> ...


I was trained on a hacksaw. Nothing is faster. No need to adjust it for different sizes of armour.

There is still a question on the Red Seal journeyman Exam that asks How to properly strip an armoured cable, and a roto-zip is not even one of the options.

The answer in the test is using a hacksaw on a 45 degree angle.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Navyguy said:


> I must be a dolt... I have always used my side cutters to cut small AC90 (bx) or a hack saw to cut the larger stuff...
> 
> I have only ever saw a "bx cutter" in a picture, I have never seen one in real life... I class them with unicorns I think
> 
> ...


I think it's a Canadian thing. I never heard of a Roto Split until I came here. I was taught to use side cutters ( a **** is a girl in comfortable shoes).


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RICK BOYD said:


> I HATE trimming out some other persons roughin
> by hate I mean
> I won't do it


You ever work for a large company?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> I think it's a Canadian thing. I never heard of a Roto Split until I came here. I was taught to use side cutters ( a **** is a girl in comfortable shoes).


I used a hacksaw first two years in the trade after that Aviation Snips or dikes, had some special snips made for MC for a while.

Any inspector that does not allow *****, tin snips or a roto-split is a dirtbag a-hole that should be pushed off a cliff.


----------



## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

brian john said:


> RICK BOYD said:
> 
> 
> > I HATE trimming out some other persons roughin
> ...


Really....I run a small shop now but I remember working in an 80 man shop. 

Hate? You hate money too then? Time and materials. Any [email protected] ups and it's on their dime.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

telsa said:


> Around here, ***** on MC is a firing offense.
> 
> The AHJ actually FLIP OUT if they detect it.
> 
> No Roto-Split = You can't even walk on to the job.


And that is why the rest of the nation KNOWS California is one F'd up state.

What a crock of sheet.

Any inspector that does not allow *****, tin snips or a roto-split is a dirtbag a-hole that should be pushed off a cliff.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I had a roto split for one day. Hated it, took it back, always strip armoured cable with *****.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I tried a Roto one time and found tin snips faster.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Greenlee puts out a so-called roto-split that is a dog.

It's not a Roto-Split. 

You have to fidgit with it... every time.

If it's not a Seatek -- it's not a Roto-Split.(R)

The speed difference is night and day. 

There is no master of the **** that can compete with Seatek's Roto-Split.

It just can't be done.

If confronted with out-sized AC// MC cables or even steel Greenfield, yeah, I'll use a hacksaw.

But, for production speed and quality... there's simply no contest.

Even raw apprentices can't screw Roto-Splits up... with ***** they sure can.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

99cents said:


> I think it's a Canadian thing. I never heard of a Roto Split until I came here. I was taught to use side cutters ( a **** is a girl in comfortable shoes).


"****" is a term for TWO girls in comfortable...........shoes, or, army boots).


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

joebanana said:


> "****" is a term for TWO girls in comfortable...........shoes, or, army boots).


and...seem very angry toward males:vs_mad:


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

RICK BOYD said:


> I HATE trimming out some other persons roughin
> by hate I mean
> I won't do it


Reminds me of a former employee. He took a similar stance. I told him, "Hey, no prob., I totally agree with you. Just to show my appreciation for your honesty, I'm not going to pay you".
Didn't take him long to change his mind.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is one of those things where people's opinions simply don't matter. A Rotosplit makes a cleaner cut in less time. That is a simple fact. The fastest hacksawer or tinsnipper simply can't keep up. And I have seen many races, the old farts with the ***** or hacksaws always lose, every time.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is one of those things where people's opinions simply don't matter. A Rotosplit makes a cleaner cut in less time. That is a simple fact. The fastest hacksawer or tinsnipper simply can't keep up. And I have seen many races, the old farts with the ***** or hacksaws always lose, every time.


I just don't feel like carrying one around for how infrequently I'm stripping MC.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I just don't feel like carrying one around for how infrequently I'm stripping MC.


I agree with this 100%. I often just use ***** because I'm only stripping each end of a single cable and I don't feel like bringing another tool to make 2 strips.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I agree with this 100%. I often just use ***** because I'm only stripping each end of a single cable and I don't feel like bringing another tool to make 2 strips.


That does have me thinking though, for when I got a green hand on the job that I can't baby sit, it would be worth having at least one on hand to mitigate damages.

Some of the folks I've had to direct are just really...dumb. I've literally drawn detailed pictures and gone through step by step directions for tasks and they would still F it up.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

telsa said:


> Greenlee puts out a so-called roto-split that is a dog.
> 
> It's not a Roto-Split.
> 
> ...


I use a Seatek Roto-split until the cable is too big for it. Then I use my m12 hackzall with a metal blade. I don't even have a hacksaw in the truck anymore. Hell, I don't even know where my hacksaw is. F*** those things.


----------

