# pricing



## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Trying to come up with some good numbers for roughing out kitchens. Doesn't have to be exclusively kitchens.Obviously the price should include finish work also. Was curious if anyone could give me some numbers to charge per outlet, per switch opening, per recess lights 6 inch, per homerun 20 amp and 15 amp, and under counter lights. Just trying to stay competitive but at the same time staying with industry standard. Northern New Jersey Area. Just getting back into the buisness as far as my own buisness. I know it depends on overhead and such but just trying to get ballpark. Thanks in advance.o


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

3 or 4 x your total material and expenses. If that matches your individual take off added up you should be within range for what market price should be......And then encounter the Price Negotiator and drop to just above 2x your total material in order to get the job.


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't realy agree with that method. We should be able to put a dollar amount on per item. We should have a standard.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

All Current said:


> I don't realy agree with that method. We should be able to put a dollar amount on per item. We should have a standard.


It's a double method

Do your per item pricing, get your total.
then times your material x 3

Your total prices should be close to each other


Problem I'm finding is people are only willing to pay 2/3 s of that and will shop around until they find it.


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

"Do your per item pricing, get your total.
then times your material x 3"

You can do material X3 and get the job?

I hate Florida!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MrsElectric said:


> "Do your per item pricing, get your total.
> then times your material x 3"
> 
> You can do material X3 and get the job?
> ...


Were all in the race to the bottom, I learned that another EC matched my price in NYC on a doctors office I did on LI. NYC requires NYC approved lighting fixtures, exits, emergency fixtures that alone add about 4k to the job. I refuse to work for $200 a day. 

I hate NY, which is worse?


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

I agree....plumbers have it right they keep pricing close to the same....so back to original question what are good prices per item.


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

"what are good prices per item"

I'm trolling to find the answers myself!

Trying to make my own flat rate book- I would NEVER get a job around here using the flat rate software available.

Trying to get away from T&M and maybe afford a vacation this year though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

M+L+O+P=C

where:
M = Material
L = Labor
O = Overhead
P = Profit
C = Cost


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> M+L+O+P=C
> 
> where:
> M = Material
> ...


:thumbup:

Wow!!!!! Rocket science.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Wow!!!!! Rocket science.:laughing:



Nope. Brain surgery.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

its easy for plumbers to say $80/hr when someone has logs floating around the house....we are not so lucky:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RGH said:


> its easy for plumbers to say $80/hr when someone has logs floating around the house....we are not so lucky:laughing:


Unless the noodle broke loose and their house is experiencing a poltergiest. at that point $125 an hour sounds good .


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Nope. Brain surgery.


That's my line. Lol.


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

6" recessed can white baffle trim and incandescent flood bulb 
new work $80
old work $85

Switch legs
Interior wall single location $80
Exterior wall single location $110
Difficult access /PIA $145

I don't have per outlet or circuit figured out yet, I'm just starting this.

You can probably get more in NJ- if I price higher than this here I don't get the bid. 

Permit fees extra!


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

hmmm..I will work in N.J. for one million dollars......


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

Oh and 1 new company policy is

"Sorry we cannot install those piece of &^%* hockey puck lights from the big box store, I know they may seem like a great price but they are crap!"

Spend the $ and install the Kichler under cabinet lights we provide or install that junk yourself


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Nope. Brain surgery.


I prefer saying rocket surgery :thumbup:

Flat rate prices on switches and stuff has always scared me. You never know what's in the wall until you drill a hole and try push a fish through. I have learned that the hard way a few times. Then again, you do have to throw a price at it, so I dunno. I have only priced construction jobs, not service work, so I'm a bit out of my element on that kind of stuff.


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Your brain surgery method in my opinion has potential on losing out on what you deserve to be paid for. I am talkng about total open rooms no sheetrock. Nothing to do with service work. Around here we put a line item on things. Outlet, recess, under cab lt. Etc., no guess work involved. It's a basis then you can put a lenght to panel for home runs. Keeps it cut and dry. Plumbers do the same. And they all stay very close to that price. No %$# holes throwing out ridiculous prices. That's what I am trying to achieve, I would like to be close to eveyone else. Forget overhead or anything else. Thanks for any insight on this


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

All Current said:


> I agree....plumbers have it right they keep pricing close to the same....so back to original question what are good prices per item.


What do YOU think are good prices...and why?


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

100 to 150 a recess lt. 65 to 75 an opening (switches,outlets, etc.) 150 to 250 for home runs.

Reason being, I figured out a while back that cost is covered and you can yield a good profits. What do YOU think.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

All Current said:


> 100 to 150 a recess lt. 65 to 75 an opening (switched outlets, etc.)
> 
> Reason being, I figured out a while back that cost is covered and you can yield a good profits. What do YOU think.


What I "think" is irrelevant.....what I "know" is relevant.

Your numbers are low.
How did you arrive at them?
Are you licensed?


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

All Current said:


> 100 to 150 a recess lt. 65 to 75 an opening (switched outlets, etc.)
> 
> Reason being, I figured out a while back that cost is covered and you can yield a good profits. What do YOU think.


I don't know what town in NJ you are in, but it seems a little low.

I hope you charge a lot more for dedicated circuits like the DW, Sub-zero, and UC lights


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

MrsElectric said:


> 6" recessed can white baffle trim and incandescent flood bulb
> new work $80
> old work $85
> 
> ...


Double your numbers for a competitive number in this corridor.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All Current said:


> 100 to 150 a recess lt. 65 to 75 an opening (switched outlets, etc.)
> 
> Reason being, I figured out a while back that cost is covered and you can yield a good profits. What do YOU think.


Where I come from this is reasonable.

However, it does not take into account:

Demolition time if its a renovation.
PITA decorative fixtures.
How organized and efficient the GC or home owner is.

People are putting tons of money into kitchens. Don't be scared to make a good profit. They could easily spend more money on a refrigerator than your total electrical bill.


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Yes, I am licensed. This is why I started the thread to start off with. I was looking for some help. 

Thankyou very much 99. Should I raise my prices for openings and home runs and how much.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

99cents said:


> Where I come from this is reasonable.


NJ isn't anywhere near you.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

All Current said:


> Yes, I am licensed. This is why I started the thread to start off with. I was looking for some help.
> 
> Thankyou very much 99. Should I raise my prices for openings and home runs and how much.



We are willing to help, but the answer isn't as simple as: What is the sum of 2+2.

How did you arrive at your numbers?


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

How do you come to the conclusion I am low if you don't know how I came up with my numbers? Doesn't really seem you are looking to help. No disrespect intended.

Is there anyone that could shed a little light on the subject?


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

There have been a bazillion pricing threads on this forum. Search through them, they have some great, and not so great, advice. No one can tell you what your rates should be. You have a unique business- target market, overhead, advertising, salaries, insurance, etc.

Search through some old threads on this subject and you will find all the answers you need.

BTW, I found out the hard way that you will not be successful basing your pricing off of what someone else does. You have to know why your rates are what they are.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MrsElectric said:


> 6" recessed can white baffle trim and incandescent flood bulb
> new work $80
> old work $85
> 
> ...


$5 more for old work????? So you are saying that old work only takes you 3 minutes more per can than new work?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

All Current said:


> Trying to come up with some good numbers for roughing out kitchens. Doesn't have to be exclusively kitchens.Obviously the price should include finish work also. Was curious if anyone could give me some numbers to charge per outlet, per switch opening, per recess lights 6 inch, per homerun 20 amp and 15 amp, and under counter lights. Just trying to stay competitive but at the same time staying with industry standard. Northern New Jersey Area. Just getting back into the buisness as far as my own buisness. I know it depends on overhead and such but just trying to get ballpark. Thanks in advance.o


There are CDs out there to help you in your estimating but what you have to do is sometimes just take a job and just sit...and ...think..."How long would it take for me to do that?" Break the job into smaller pieces and think about how long each piece would take you if all went well. If you know, by experience, that trouble seems to always crop up, then add a percentage of difficulty to your bid. You don't always have to be the lowest bidder, but the jobs you get have to give you a living wage. If you seriously know your capabilities and bid with that in mind, you should be glad that you did not get the job.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*my ad*

Here is one of my local ads 

New Circuits $299 BAM! 

Added outlets $99 BAM! 

Can lights $ 150 BAM! 

New Panel $ 999 BAM! 

The key is the word BAM! at the end. It gives it more sizzle


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Here is one of my local ads
> 
> New Circuits $299 BAM!
> 
> ...


That is kind of what I am talking about. You have confidence...and bid the way that you know...or at least, think, that you can make money. That's good.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*B*



RIVETER said:


> That is kind of what I am talking about. You have confidence...and bid the way that you know...or at least, think, that you can make money. That's good.


You need to say BAM! at the end of that...try again


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Cletis said:


> You need to say BAM! at the end of that...try again


If you are confident in yourself and your work it doesn't hurt to say "BAM". It feels good.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> There are CDs out there to help you in your estimating but what you have to do is sometimes just take a job and just sit...and ...think..."How long would it take for me to do that?" Break the job into smaller pieces and think about how long each piece would take you if all went well. If you know, by experience, that trouble seems to always crop up, then add a percentage of difficulty to your bid. You don't always have to be the lowest bidder, but the jobs you get have to give you a living wage. If you seriously know your capabilities and bid with that in mind, you should be glad that you did not get the job.


How are Cross Dressers going to help him?


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Thanks Cletis, I believe you are referring to old work installation. Am I correct by stating that. BAM!!!


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> How are Cross Dressers going to help him?


Now that comment is good and made me laugh. 

But it might help if the target area is correct. 

I would think that if your getting all your bids then your prices are to low. The guys who have been in business longer already know their market area. I wouldn't hire the low bidder with out a compelling reason. It makes me think he's cheap and will cut corners to make a profit. 
Since the average customer doesn't know anything beyond a plunger, I would believe salesmanship and presentation will carry the day and command a hirer price.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*clause*



All Current said:


> Thanks Cletis, I believe you are referring to old work installation. Am I correct by stating that. BAM!!!


That's more flat rate easier runs to a point. Make sure you have lot's of fine print at bottom for plaster lathe and 10" crown molding for 1st floor can lights though...and things like that


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

All Current said:


> How do you come to the conclusion I am low if you don't know how I came up with my numbers? Doesn't really seem you are looking to help. No disrespect intended.


I came to the conclusion that your numbers are low [100 to 150 a recess lt.] because I charged $125 in 1996.
16 years later and the price has dropped/remained flat?

Here is an example of a new work recessed can price:










[that pricing is from 2006/7ish ~ last time I upload that image]

Thats a NEW WORK price...the cheapest, easiest install imaginable...for OLD WORK, ceilings higher than 8', moving furniture, additional clean-up time, etc..it's a lot more.

You also seem to make no distinction between a GFCI, dimmer, 3-way, 15A recept..."standard", decora or "other" in your "opening" price.

I have pricing for each type.

No disrespect taken...I would expect you call me on it just as I would you :thumbsup:




All Current said:


> Is there anyone that could shed a little light on the subject?


Patience...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All Current said:


> Yes, I am licensed. This is why I started the thread to start off with. I was looking for some help.
> 
> Thankyou very much 99. Should I raise my prices for openings and home runs and how much.


Yes, you should raise your prices if its renovation work. Everything takes time. With renovation work, you need to allow for the time it takes to re-route existing circuits, get rid of redundant wiring, etc. This normally doesn't take a lot of material but it can take up a lot of time. How much depends on the job. There are no hard and fast rules.

Its something I am trying to quantify myself but, depending on the complexity of the job, marrying up new construction with old construction can add anywhere from 20% to 100% of the labor compared to straight ahead new construction.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Celtic said:


> NJ isn't anywhere near you.


Nice. I see you stayed awake during geography class.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Celtic...I dissected your labor out....as per your formula...'06ish as you said....Has your base line labor rate increased since ? or not?..just curious...in WNY that rate would be high today....different markets for sure...$80/hr factor is top of the mark here now ....i figured yours then was higher ($85) then than mine now....I figure my compitition hoovering at $75/resi....$125/comm.....again differnt markets.....my system is very simular....


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

svh19044 said:


> Double your numbers for a competitive number in this corridor.


I knew I would be slammed for posting those prices but if I bid any higher we won't have any work.

Last week I was told "Wow, and I thought the first bid I got was high" 
At these prices!!! Another licensed EC was lower! 

Don't move to Florida until you've retired because you can't make any $ here, unless you're in a big city.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*wrong*



MrsElectric said:


> I knew I would be slammed for posting those prices but if I bid any higher we won't have any work.
> 
> Last week I was told "Wow, and I thought the first bid I got was high"
> At these prices!!! Another licensed EC was lower!
> ...


Your just getting the "Wrong" customers is all.


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Celtic thanks for the info, not familiar with that program. What did it take to complete the 6" hi hat? Time wise. Rough and finish. Is that 1.41 hours? I would like to know where you purchased that program and what it's called. That price seems a bit high to me. Don't think I would get many call backs on that one. I am in a pretty affluent area too.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RGH said:


> Celtic...I dissected your labor out....as per your formula...'06ish as you said....Has your base line labor rate increased since ? or not?..just curious...in WNY that rate would be high today....different markets for sure...$80/hr factor is top of the mark here now ....i figured yours then was higher ($85) then than mine now....I figure my compitition hoovering at $75/resi....$125/comm.....again differnt markets.....my system is very simular....


While it's true markets do vary ~ even within a small State like NJ, the percent difference is mostly negligible.

My labor is billed at just over $100/hr now.[resi., standard hours, etc]..at the time that pic was taken/posted...it was $85/hr.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

All Current said:


> Celtic thanks for the info, not familiar with that program.


Your welcome AC....judging by your join date [2011] I kind of figured you would not have seen that "program" [more later]..



All Current said:


> What did it take to complete the 6" hi hat? Time wise. Rough and finish. Is that 1.41 hours?


You got it.
1.41 hours....which also includes time to mobilize/demobilize your tools/equip; actually go purchase the materials; etc.....soup to nuts.




All Current said:


> I would like to know where you purchased that program and what it's called.


I didn't buy it.
I made it [based on a sheet from some crazy dude from California that is currently AFK...Where is Romex Racer? ]

It's simply called:
Celtic Master Spreadsheet


















v1.0 was made in '05 ish...
v2.0 in '07 ish
v3.0 in '09 ish

I use another program for most of my estimating now...but always default to my sheet for quick accurate figures on price and time.






All Current said:


> That price seems a bit high to me. Don't think I would get many call backs on that one. I am in a pretty affluent area too.


The price seems high based on what?
How did you arrive at your hourly rate?

You'd be surprised what you can get by just asking....


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

great point demobilize..like that...my line bar is setup/ cleanup at least .25/hr to1 hr on just about any job....it don't just happen.... I use drop cloths and vacume...and its "in there"!!


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## webelec (Dec 9, 2010)

Celtic, I saw screen shots of your spreadsheet some time ago on another forum. At the time I think you were missing. I had wanted to contact you as at the time I was trying to make something similar. I'm an EC from the UK so obviously your actual data/prices are of no use to me, however it's layout and function is. Can I ask, would you mind showing some more screen shots of it? That way I can cobble together my own.
I hope I'm not being cheeky by asking this, but if I am, just ignore me.


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Celtic, thanks for the info. That was very cool to show me your info. I am assuming your price would change if you were installing say 15 recess?


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## All Current (Jul 31, 2011)

Or would you just keep line items the same.


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## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

Cletis said:


> Here is one of my local ads
> 
> New Circuits $299 BAM!
> 
> ...


Reminds me of those $599 per eye laser surgery specials. Sure why not? All,the fine print to follow.

Customers are so ingrained to Internet price shopping and think they are above this "kind of work." But in my experience they're terrible negotiators so many chances to upsell if you can roll with it.


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