# Wire Ties In The Panel?



## POWER STROKE (Aug 26, 2012)

I was just wondering who uses wire ties or velcro straps inside a residential panel to hold your wires neat inside panel.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

POWER STROKE said:


> I was just wondering who uses wire ties or velcro straps inside a residential panel to hold your wires neat inside panel.


Stranded wire which doesn't like to hold its shape after I've "trained" it into place gets ty-wraps. Solid wire doesn't need it, it holds the shape just fine....no ties on solid for me.


----------



## John (Jan 22, 2007)

POWER STROKE said:


> I was just wondering who uses wire ties or velcro straps inside a residential panel to hold your wires neat inside panel.


I have never seen Velcro....got pictures?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't care about neat, I care about functional. Ever try to go back and do work on a panel when some moron has ty-wrapped all the wire together? If you haven't wired a panel so it's easy for the next guy to work on, then you have not done your job.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

99cents said:


> I don't care about neat, I care about functional. _*Ever try to go back and do work on a panel when some moron has ty-wrapped all the wire together*_? If you haven't wired a panel so it's easy for the next guy to work on, then you have not done your job.


 Yep....I think 99% of the panels I've ever worked on has been ty-wrapped. Its really not that difficult to work on the panel if all the neutrals and the hots have been labeled and identified properly. I agree though....when they aren't labeled.....its a bitch.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Zip ties. I f-ing love zip ties so much that I carry a bundle of them on my belt just like pliers and screwdrivers.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Tyraps in a new breaker panel are a waste.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I never tighten zip ties down. If it's a new panel I'll use a modest amount of sticky backs with zip ties, but I'll leave them very slack. They're just kind of a "guide." I hate a panel full of tightened zip ties. Every guy that comes along later adds a wire and throws another 12 zip ties around the bundle, and then the next guy comes along and does the same, etc. By the time I get to the panel it's basically a conduit sleeve made out of zip ties and I just start snipping 'em all out of there. Leaving them loose is enough to keep wires in their confined paths, but easy enough to put new wires in.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I never tighten zip ties down. If it's a new panel I'll use a modest amount of sticky backs with zip ties, but I'll leave them very slack. They're just kind of a "guide"...


 Agreed, except that I despise sticky-backs and firmly believe they'll come off as soon as I close the panel door.

However, in a control panel, I do cinch all my zip ties of and stick-back everything because stay the hell out of my control panels, dammit!


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

I am still relatively new to the trade but I use sticky pads and zip ties I feel any thing u do should be both neat and functional.


----------



## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

They're pretty...but if I come behind you they're getting cut.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Big John said:


> Agreed, except that I despise sticky-backs and firmly believe they'll come off as soon as I close the panel door.
> 
> _*However, in a control panel, I do cinch all my zip ties of and stick-back everything because stay the hell out of my control panels, dammit!*_


Yep....stickies can't wait to jump off the back of the panel. The warranty on them expires while you are putting the cover on the panel. That's why I use panduit narrow slot wiring duct in ALL of my control panels and just place a few loose ty-wraps in there to keep things where I want them. All my control cabinets get locks also.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> Agreed, except that I despise sticky-backs and firmly believe they'll come off as soon as I close the panel door.
> 
> However, in a control panel, I do cinch all my zip ties of and stick-back everything because stay the hell out of my control panels, dammit!


I've had pretty good luck with sticky backs when I use a heat gun to warm up the glue to a slightly gooey state and then sticking them to the panel. They seem to adhere a lot better.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I've had pretty good luck with sticky backs when I use a heat gun to warm up the glue to a slightly gooey state and then sticking them to the panel. They seem to adhere a lot better.


 They do stick better if the panel or the glue is warm but it seems that as soon as they cool off.....they fall off:laughing::laughing:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> They do stick better if the panel or the glue is warm but it seems that as soon as they cool off.....they fall off:laughing::laughing:


You can also stick them and then run a self-tapper through them :laughing:

Hey that was post #666 for you :laughing:


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

The evil post....:laughing::laughing:

I've used self tapping "Kelly" screws on them before. They never come off then:no::no:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Rollie73 said:


> ...That's why I use panduit narrow slot wiring duct in ALL of my control panels and just place a few loose ty-wraps in there to keep things where I want them....


 Anything with a PLC or more than a couple of components got Panduit, but for simple starter cabinets and things like that, I usually just formed the wires and used zip-ties to make it clean.


> ...All my control cabinets get locks also.


 Yeah, I learned that the hard way. Last place I worked got to the point where not only did all the new panels get locks, but I started an initiative to put hasps and locks on every single panel under my control. 

I've got pictures somewhere of one PLC panel the operators had crammed full of alligator leads, extension cord pieces, and bell-wire jumpers of every size and color of the rainbow. It was so butchered, it had to be gutted and rebuilt from scratch.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Yeah....you're right.....I only use Panduit on bigger panels and small relay panels or starters get shaped in ziptied. 
I didn't really think about that because its been years since I've done a small single device control cabinet.....it seems they get bigger on every job.:thumbsup:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> Yep....I think 99% of the panels I've ever worked on has been ty-wrapped. Its really not that difficult to work on the panel if all the neutrals and the hots have been labeled and identified properly. I agree though....when they aren't labeled.....its a bitch.


I can't say I have ever labeled a neutral in anything but a control panel. even then it is rare. Why would you?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I use zip ties in panels all the time... I want the panel to look good (20) years from now when the next guy pulls the cover off.. 

Anyone can be a slob.. it takes no skill and saves very little time.. :no::no:


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I can't say I have ever labeled a neutral in anything but a control panel. even then it is rare. Why would you?


Standard practice here.....at least on commercial. I don't mean a label saying "neutral".....I mean identifying it with the circuit number. It's very common here.


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> They do stick better if the panel or the glue is warm but it seems that as soon as they cool off.....they fall off:laughing::laughing:


Hence why I don't use sticky backs...


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I can't say I have ever labeled a neutral in anything but a control panel. even then it is rare. Why would you?


Troubleshooting made easier....


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> I mean identifying it with the circuit number. It's very common here.


Here too...


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> I am still relatively new to the trade but I use sticky pads and zip ties I feel any thing u do should be both neat and functional.


Your colors are backward. Black/Red/Blue Top to bottom, left to right.


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

ties and lace...wow mil-spec days all over again....11 yrs building navy and marine corp gear....I use a few cause I had to learn to be EXTREMELY NEAT years ago..better lay that panel out right first...or you'll be cutting and moving chit pita....they make the panel look nice neat and professional...some guys will bitch you out for taking 2long to build it..do what the boss says:thumbsup:...if he says nothing put a few in see what he says..stranded should be left longer and swept looped in it will lay better and look more workman like ...plus any trouble/moves/adds are way easier down the pike:thumbup: I dont like clutter so I do use em....


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Is it hard to cut the tyraps you need to in order to trace out the wires in question, fix the problem, then retyrap as needed to keep it neat? I know I get paid by the hour and would rather leave a panel neater than when I got there, rather than looking like someone threw up inside it...


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I actually got called for bundling for using Ty wraps in a panel once!


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

RGH said:


> ties and lace...wow mil-spec days all over again....11 yrs building navy and marine corp gear....I use a few cause I had to learn to be EXTREMELY NEAT years ago..better lay that panel out right first...or you'll be cutting and moving chit pita....they make the panel look nice neat and professional...some guys will bitch you out for taking 2long to build it..do what the boss says:thumbsup:...if he says nothing put a few in see what he says..stranded should be left longer and swept looped in it will lay better and look more workman like ...plus any trouble/moves/adds are way easier down the pike:thumbup: I dont like clutter so I do use em....


Cable lacing is a lost art. Soooo much more impresive than a tie wrap job.


----------



## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

If you're in a computer room with obsolete stuff and high harmonic loads bundles could definitely create a heat issue. Not so sure it applies with most newer stuff...


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

drsparky said:


> Cable lacing is a lost art. Soooo much more impresive than a tie wrap job.


wow..memorylane....now hook that up to a 250 port signal entry panel....correctly:laughing::thumbup:....miss working on totally cool chit...


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Your colors are backward. Black/Red/Blue Top to bottom, left to right.


Not here in NYC.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Itsonlywes said:


> Not here in NYC.


What is it there?


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Switched said:


> What is it there?


back asswards and ********, just like SF and their purple high leg.


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

Switched said:


> What is it there?


Blue red black. Not really sure y.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

kennydmeek said:


> They're pretty...but if I come behind you they're getting cut.


I opened one panel the other day and there were about 3 times that many ties, they were all cheap plastic white commercial electric too. I cut them all so I could put in CT's, and for my own personal enjoyment :laughing:


----------



## Deepwater Horizon (Jan 29, 2013)

I almost always cut all the cable ties in a panel.


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Your colors are backward. Black/Red/Blue Top to bottom, left to right.


me thinks that pic is upside down.....:whistling2:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I opened one panel the other day and there were about 3 times that many ties, they were all cheap plastic white commercial electric too. I cut them all so I could put in CT's, and for my own personal enjoyment :laughing:


I bundle my wires with CTs and don't short the secondary, that way I *have* to balance loads :blink:


----------



## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

I prefer to lace my cables ;-)....

http://australia.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-lacing/0554080/

This is how we had to do control panels when i was an apprentice...These days i prefer to cable tie in panels...


Frank


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

iirc, a recent nfpa dictates we _have to_ indentify the noodles to a MWBC, which is usually done via tiewraps

further, i thought i read in one of the trade mags that panduit lobbied to be a _'means of securing'_ wire

not sure if a velccro manufacturer has as yet....?

~CS~


----------



## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> Stranded wire which doesn't like to hold its shape after I've "trained" it into place gets ty-wraps. Solid wire doesn't need it, it holds the shape just fine....no ties on solid for me.


Same here


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

B4T said:


> I use zip ties in panels all the time... I want the panel to look good (20) years from now when the next guy pulls the cover off..
> 
> Anyone can be a slob.. it takes no skill and saves very little time.. :no::no:


I say it takes a slob to depend on cable ties to do a good job. The question was about using cable ties on residential panels. Absolutely not. It just creates more work to disentangle things when you want to work on it after the fact.


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Just cut the ties and replace them or don't replace them if you don't want to.

I use cable ties a lot just to hold other stuff out of the way while I'm working on something. 

If the cabinets a real mess I cable tie the power into the switch to avoid knocking it out.


----------



## wireman64 (Feb 2, 2012)

POWER STROKE said:


> I was just wondering who uses wire ties or velcro straps inside a residential panel to hold your wires neat inside panel.


Who needs wire ties when you can just do this


----------

