# Romex is supposed to get wet right?



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

They want you to pull out all of over a couple of wet spots?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Demand a code reference.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO, which means nothing, I would not worry about an occasional sprinkling of water. Heck there is so much nm cable sitting in the back of pickup trucks that has been installed for ages. I am sure the manufacturer will agree with the inspector.

What size holes did the plumber drill--- that's an awful lot of water.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Probably the same guy who wants green wire nuts.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Temporary water exposer wont harm romex.

Keep in mind that whats underneath that jacket is THHN THWN, W meaning water resistance.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Also look at the definition of dry location



> Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness
> or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily
> subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a
> building under construction.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Tell the inspector to get his credit card out since he wants new wire so bad.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Building is absolutely soaked ill get u guys some better pictures tommorrow. That was just a microcosm..... he wants every peice of rope pulled out.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

BBQ said:


> They want you to pull out all of over a couple of wet spots?


I'm bringing my raft and I started building my ark.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Demand a code reference.


Will do


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> IMO, which means nothing, I would not worry about an occasional sprinkling of water. Heck there is so much nm cable sitting in the back of pickup trucks that has been installed for ages. I am sure the manufacturer will agree with the inspector.
> 
> What size holes did the plumber drill--- that's an awful lot of water.


4 and 1/4 holes


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

christrician said:


> Building is absolutely soaked ill get u guys some better pictures tommorrow. That was just a microcosm..... he wants every peice of rope pulled out.


If you have a megger, maybe you can invite him over for testing, on a dry day.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> .......Keep in mind that whats underneath that jacket is THHN THWN, .....


Prove it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

christrician said:


> 4 and 1/4 holes


I take it the pipes were not in those holes... Dumb thing to do on the part of the plumber


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I take it the pipes were not in those holes... Dumb thing to do on the part of the plumber


Pipes are through and caulked but water is persistent.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

That NM is going to melt like a sugar cube because it got wet... :no:

But the skins you cut off while cutting in the boxes will last (600) years in a land fill and still not begin to decompose...

The code about a "wet location" is a bunch of BS that has nothing to back up the rant of getting wet is a hazard to pets... humans.. or wildlife...


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Also look at the definition of dry location


So if romex gets wet during construction it's all good?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

christrician said:


> Building is absolutely soaked ill get u guys some better pictures tommorrow. That was just a microcosm..... he wants every peice of rope pulled out.


 
if this was a single soaking I wouldnt be worried at all. And this isnt acid rain either.


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## HawkShock (Nov 27, 2012)

Could be worse...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I have seen romex run outdoors in Hack jobs that has lasted 20 years without issue, The sunlight might kill the jacket, soil might.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

Unless the wire was immersed I think the inspector is asking for too much. Certainly get you to prove the insulation is good but a 500 volt Meggar test should suffice to prove no damage. water has to get inside of the Jacket to be a problem.
Where was the inspector when the pallet load of romex went through the rain shower?


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

Asinine inspectors always pissed me off. I see no issue with that wire that got wet once. Over time the insulation will break down, but as a one-off, no problem!


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I replaced a circuit to a church sign that was ran in regular romex . They said the sign was put in 25 years ago . the romex looked great but they had an addition built on and cut it . When I was trenching for the new line I hit the old romex and it was nothing wrong with it . So I cant see romex getting wet a little hurting it at all .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

christrician said:


> So if romex gets wet during construction it's all good?


I believe that is what the definition in art. 100 is saying


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I believe that is what the definition in art. 100 is saying


Thanks dennis


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

dthurmond said:


> I replaced a circuit to a church sign that was ran in regular romex . They said the sign was put in 25 years ago . the romex looked great but they had an addition built on and cut it . When I was trenching for the new line I hit the old romex and it was nothing wrong with it . So I cant see romex getting wet a little hurting it at all .


Same thing here. Old cloth covered, buried for more than 25 years in a parking lot. Worked until they decided to reconfigure the whole lot


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Submerged is one thing. 
Replacing all of it because the sheathing got wet?? ABSURD!!


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Also look at the *definition of dry location*


I think Dennis nailed it IMO


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The only point the inspector might have is if the water got into cut ends on the cable and wicked way down the paper sleeve; that might stay wet for a very long time. But saying the wire needs to be replaced because the PVC jacket got wet is asinine.


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## Sbargers (Mar 28, 2013)

360max said:


> I think Dennis nailed it IMO


I know many time's new construction rainy days. Never replaced never a problem


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Absolute foolishness. Meggar the cable at 500 volts and show him that it's fine. 
If that doesn't work.......clip the leads of the meggar to his ears and do a 3 minute test at 1000 volts. 

What a moron.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

The water will help alleviate the nm bundling hack job !


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Cletis said:


> The water will help alleviate the nm bundling hack job !


Hahahahahahahaha


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

If electricians can get away with megging Romex in flooded homes why can't you do the same?

I'd call the Romex manufacturer and ask them what they think, see if they'll send you an email stating megging is ok.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Cow said:


> If electricians can get away with megging Romex in flooded homes why can't you do the same?
> 
> _I'd call the Romex manufacturer and ask them what they think, see if they'll send you an email stating megging is ok_.


 
Excellent idea...........then cram that paper work into the inspectors nostrils.:thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

meadow said:


> Keep in mind that whats underneath that jacket is THHN THWN, W meaning water resistance.



:no:
Prove it [still waiting]



meadow said:


> I have seen romex run outdoors in Hack jobs that has lasted 20 years without issue...


Just because you have seen hack work last, doesn't change the fact that it is a blatant code violation.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

So what do I tell this joker? Thanks for the input guys!


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Celtic said:


> :no:
> Prove it [still waiting]
> 
> 
> ...


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

christrician said:


> So what do I tell this joker? Thanks for the input guys!


Show him the definition in ART.100 that Dennis posted;
Ask for a Code Reference to the contrary;
Ask him for a letter from the manufacturer to back up _*his*_ position;
State that unless the cable fails a megger test that it will stay put;
And tell the inspector to have a nice day. :thumbup:


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Show him the definition in ART.100 that Dennis posted;
> Ask for a Code Reference to the contrary;
> Ask him for a letter from the manufacturer to back up his position;
> State that unless the cable fails a megger test that it will stay put;
> And tell the inspector to have a nice day. :thumbup:



And drop the mic?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

No way I would waste time megging this. Show him the definition and go do something productive.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> :no:
> Prove it [still waiting]
> 
> 
> ...


The insulation on the conductors or on the sheath in NM here in the US has no identification on them to indicate exactly what type is contained therein.

The NEC also prohibits the use of NM in wet or damp locations [334.12


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

christrician said:


> And drop the mic?


:thumbup:


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> Excellent idea...........then cram that paper work into the inspectors nostrils.:thumbup:


Can't wait


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

mxslick said:


> Show him the definition in ART.100 that Dennis posted;
> Ask for a Code Reference to the contrary;
> Ask him for a letter from the manufacturer to back up _*his*_ position;
> State that unless the cable fails a megger test that it will stay put;
> And tell the inspector to have a nice day. :thumbup:


I don't know how it works in your area, but when I make a call, it is incumbent on the electrician to prove me wrong. I provide the rule, he does the leg work. If he is right, then I learned something. Typically it is something I have seen many times before, but if they want to argue, then they can find the answer while the job remains deficient.

One thing I do like is if a contractor disagrees with me but lays out a well reasoned argument. What I hate is when they wilt in my presence and whine about me to others later.

This inspector may be a bit over zealous, but still trying to do the right thing. Build a relationship with him, and earn his respect, he will give it back to you in spades.


What I would do is call the manufacturer and get the specs for the cable and show it to him, along with the definition of dry location, which was listed here earlier.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Why should he have to call the manufacture just because the inspector read something on a forum somewhere? If anything the inspector should do the leg work.
NM is rated for dry locations. This is typically a dry location.


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Why should he have to call the manufacture just because the inspector read something on a forum somewhere? If anything the inspector should do the leg work.
> NM is rated for dry locations. This is typically a dry location.


Yup, keep taking that stance while your project stays at a standstill, and the builder is watching as his house sits empty or has a stop work order on it.

As I stated earlier, I disagree with this call. The inspector is someone you have to work with though, so get your S#!7 together and present your case to him.

Edit. Or you could call his supervisor and discuss it with him. Often the supervisors are a little more relaxed on the little things that are not worth the fight.


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## someonespecial (Aug 31, 2012)

Here is what UL says about it - http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/.../electrical/additionalresources/flooding/nmb/

"In general, cables with PVC insulation and jacket can withstand immersion in clean water for a _short period of time_ without being damaged as long as the ends are not immersed. For example, a building may be subject to rainfall while under construction, and water may come in contact with the outer jacket of nonmetallic-sheathed cable. This is not prohibited by the NEC. The UL Standard for Safety for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cables, ANSI/UL 719, requires Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Tests after 24-hour water immersion of cable samples (with ends in free air)."


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Go soak your NM for 24 hours....... Along with the legislatures' collective heads.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I do not like to be rude to other posters like some here are...... ahem..... but the prior posters are all dull as rocks. What macmikeman says is----




REPLACE THE ROMEX AND BACKCHARGE THE PLUMBER FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bonanza!!!!!


Charge plumbers rates!!!!!!!!!!


Retire wealthy !!!!!!!!


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Even though the romex is not affected by the moisture, if the AHJ demands you to replace, he will probably get his way.
Let me ask you, did the GC tell you to commence work under a "temporary" roof? 
Around here they will shut you down for doing ruff until the roof is "completely dried-in".
If a GC ordered me to commence work, I would have warned him.
So, did you start ruff on your own, or did the GC order you? If he did, did you speak up?


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

how many times have you seen tails outside waiting for fixtures to be installed.
so wet the paper sticks to the ground wire and turned all green .....:whistling2:


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## Wirenut2266 (Nov 3, 2012)

Here in Southern Minnesota the inspectors will have a hissy fit if building is not watertight on rough in. They will let a window missing as long as it is plywood shut, but temp roof no way, or a bunch of windows missing no way. I have even been talked too about a front door missing, even though a temp plywood door was in its place. Tough call, but I ALWAYS try and get along with the inspectors. They are not your boss, I consider them as my coworker. If you can bill it out to GC or Plumber, pull it and be happy! Why would you want too rough in under a temp roof confuses me? That just opens up a can of worms just like this thread! Were you as a Contractor "told" to start the rough in, or did you "ask" to start the project.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Wirenut2266 said:


> Here in Southern Minnesota the inspectors will have a hissy fit if building is not watertight on rough in.


Your inspectors are looney.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

cdslotz said:


> Even though the romex is not affected by the moisture, if the AHJ demands you to replace, he will probably get his way.
> Let me ask you, did the GC tell you to commence work under a "temporary" roof?
> Around here they will shut you down for doing ruff until the roof is "completely dried-in".
> If a GC ordered me to commence work, I would have warned him.
> So, did you start ruff on your own, or did the GC order you? If he did, did you speak up?


Yes we were givin the go ahead.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Wirenut2266 said:


> Here in Southern Minnesota the inspectors will have a hissy fit if building is not watertight on rough in. They will let a window missing as long as it is plywood shut, but temp roof no way, or a bunch of windows missing no way. I have even been talked too about a front door missing, even though a temp plywood door was in its place. Tough call, but I ALWAYS try and get along with the inspectors. They are not your boss, I consider them as my coworker. If you can bill it out to GC or Plumber, pull it and be happy! Why would you want too rough in under a temp roof confuses me? That just opens up a can of worms just like this thread! Were you as a Contractor "told" to start the rough in, or did you "ask" to start the project.


Told to go ahead and the Job was already 2 months behind.....


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## toolaholic (Aug 13, 2010)

*Lets hope the inspector doesn't relocate to seattle*

In a week He'll be Hanging from wet NM from a pole !


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Wirenut2266 said:


> Here in Southern Minnesota the inspectors will have a hissy fit if building is not watertight on rough in. They will let a window missing as long as it is plywood shut, but temp roof no way, or a bunch of windows missing no way.


We need a roof here for rough in, but we don't need to have windows.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

christrician said:


> And drop the mic?


No toss it to him like in the movie 8 mile and say "tell them something they don't know about me" and have the landscapers ,carpenters, and plumbers cheer in the background.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Does he want the house reframed because the wood is wet too?:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Nothing mentioned about the bundling or the wet particle board?


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

What bundling? The first pic shows 2 12-2 NM for a distance of less than 24".


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jim Port said:


> What bundling? The first pic shows 2 12-2 NM for a distance of less than 24".










You'll start giving inspectors ideas. Next thing you know, having two NMs in the same building will be considered bundling.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> What bundling? The first pic shows 2 12-2 NM for a distance of less than 24".


 I think maybe people are confusing the edge-grain of that engineered lumber for a whole bunch of stacked 12-2s...?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

big2bird said:


> Does he want the house reframed because the wood is wet too?:laughing:


Actually if particle board or plywood becomes saturated and separates during construction it should not be allowed to stay in the building. All the glue, screws or nails in the world will not keep that floor from squeaking.

Like my house.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

christrician said:


> Yes we were givin the go ahead.


Good luck in getting the GC to pay you to replace it.
Why would a GC spend the time or money to put on a temp roof? Sounds to me like the house was not even ready for a roof.
I've never heard of anyone doing that before.
I think the inspector was saying the same thing.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Job is a disaster. Going on year 2 of construction should of been done last summer. They keep running into structural problems with the span crete


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I recently did a survey for a fresh water flooded home caused by a pipe leak. All the walls were gutted. I added up about $1500 without replacing one cable. That was only new splices/devices and fixtures in the section that got flooded and a couple other non related violations of a buried splice box, gfci at sink and tandems in a full size panel.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I recently did a survey for a fresh water flooded home caused by a pipe leak. All the walls were gutted. I added up about $1500 without replacing one cable. That was only new splices/devices and fixtures in the section that got flooded and a couple other non related violations of a buried splice box, gfci at sink and tandems in a full size panel.


Did you notice lower than average NM megger readings?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Did you notice lower than average NM megger readings?


No megging, the wiring was fine and on at the time , it was only a burst pipe that saturated the sheetrock and framing, running down to the basement. Paper in the cables were dry.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Actually if particle board or plywood becomes saturated and separates during construction it should not be allowed to stay in the building. All the glue, screws or nails in the world will not keep that floor from squeaking.
> 
> Like my house.


Look up "exposure 1." Plywood /chipboard for sheathing and flooring rated exposure 1 is permitted limited exposure to the elements during construction.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

big2bird said:


> Look up "exposure 1." Plywood /chipboard for sheathing and flooring rated exposure 1 is permitted limited exposure to the elements during construction.


That's quite a read. I thought our stuff was complicated.

It supports my worse fears and why my floors squeak. Thanks


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## HawkShock (Nov 27, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> No megging, the wiring was fine and on at the time , it was only a burst pipe that saturated the sheetrock and framing, running down to the basement. Paper in the cables were dry.


Just because it was on doesn't mean it is okay..... Just because the paper at the ends was dry don't mean it wont spark. Kinda like rolling a real tight.....NM 420


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> That's quite a read. I thought our stuff was complicated.
> 
> It supports my worse fears and why my floors squeak. Thanks


Squeaking is caused by movement. If the floor sheathing was installed with liquid nail and ring shank nails/screws, you would have no squeaks.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

big2bird said:


> Squeaking is caused by movement. If the floor sheathing was installed with liquid nail and ring shank nails/screws, you would have no squeaks.


Actually the builders were cautioned about this and supplied cases of liquid nail and proper nails. But, the subflooring was not stored properly, was installed wet and water was left standing on it for days, after it was installed.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Actually the builders were cautioned about this and supplied cases of liquid nail and proper nails. But, the subflooring was not stored properly, was installed wet and water was left standing on it for days, after it was installed.


Sorry about that. You just can't fix stupid.:no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

HawkShock said:


> Just because it was on doesn't mean it is okay..... Just because the paper at the ends was dry don't mean it wont spark. Kinda like rolling a real tight.....NM 420


It was my professional opinion that the water damage was surface , nothing was under water. The devices and splices were fine but I wrote up as a precautionary measure to have the affected area respliced and redeviced .


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## wireman64 (Feb 2, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Squeaking is caused by movement. If the floor sheathing was installed with liquid nail and ring shank nails/screws, you would have no squeaks.


What i usually do is lay down beads of osi sub floor adhesive on every joist ,then tack 8d nails where bords meet , this gives spacing for expansion when bords are wet, then nail with 8d nails every 6 - 8 inches following a nailing pattern on the edges , pull spacer nails out and good to go! I've built a few floors in my time


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

christrician said:


> I'm bringing my raft and I started building my ark.


 
Please do not let a mating pair of inspectors into your ark.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

If you start slow and work your way down of course it will.


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