# Old fuse box questions.



## MHElectric

Got a couple fuse box questions, need someone to explain this monster to me. Sorry if I explain this like a 2-year old, I dont have any pics to show what I'm talking about. Oh well, I dont have to many customers that have fuse boxes, but I spent more time today troubleshooting one than I care to do again.

1) IN BETWEEN THE FUSES- Each fuse has a screw that you hook the hot up to, Why is there a screw in between them (that is unfused) that is hot. This sort of throws me for a loop cause I cant see how you could have a terminal to hook something to and not fuse it. MAYBE...I just need this explained to me real well, as I'm sure there is a easy explaination.
2)WHY DO THEY ALWAYS HAVE 30 AMP FUSES IN THEM???!!!!????!!! - I pulled them all out and put in 15's and 20's.
3) IT IS ILLEGAL TO INSTALL ANYTHING NEW OR EXTENDED ANYTHING OUT OF THESE PANELS....RIGHT??? - Only repair work right? Cuase even if you put a GFI on the receptacle you extend off of, you still cant put in a AFCI fuse.

ANy other knowledge on this would help. Dont deal with these much but I want to be a little-bit more educated on them when I hit the next one.Thxs!:thumbsup:


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## MHElectric

Maybe I posted this in the wrong topic, I guess I should have asked this under the residential forum......


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## wildleg

if you aren't going to bother to take pics and post them, at least provide a manufacturer


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## MHElectric

wildleg said:


> if you aren't going to bother to take pics and post them, at least provide a manufacturer


Didnt cross my mind even once..sorry. Just looking for some guys who work around fuse boxes somewhat regularly to answer some questions and give a small crash course on servicing/repairing them. If my questions were too vague, then any advice,tips, or input will be appreciated.


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## backstay

Replace Replace Replace


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## electricmanscott

I have tons of various fuse blocks. Every once in a while I replace one. Sometimes I add a block for a few new circuits.


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## MHElectric

Is replacing fuses and fuse blocks, or trying to sell a panel swap where the dollar ends on this subject? What am I legally aloud to do or not do when working around them?


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## backstay

MHElectric said:


> Is replacing fuses and fuse blocks, or trying to sell a panel swap where the dollar ends on this subject? What am I legally aloud to do or not do when working around them?


It's just a box with OCDs in it, not much different from a breaker panel. If you aren't overloading it, you can add a circuit. You could sub feed a breaker panel from it( I wouldn't). It just has fuses not breakers.


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## MHElectric

backstay said:


> It's just a box with OCDs in it, not much different from a breaker panel. If you aren't overloading it, you can add a circuit. You could sub feed a breaker panel from it( I wouldn't). It just has fuses not breakers.


 You make it sound like it aint nothing . Maybe I'm too shy when it comes to something I dont know. I'm curious about extending circuits and adding circuits, how do you deal with (1) no EGC present which would require GFI protection (2) how in the world do you AFCI protect it??? (3) no code book handy but I'm remebering something in 240 like this - "for replacing screw in fuses and edison fuses and such only...blah blah...no new work....".

I just dont have much experience or expertise here, thats all..


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## backstay

MHElectric said:


> You make it sound like it aint nothing . Maybe I'm too shy when it comes to something I dont know. I'm curious about extending circuits and adding circuits, how do you deal with (1) no EGC present which would require GFI protection (2) how in the world do you AFCI protect it??? (3) no code book handy but I'm remebering something in 240 like this - "for replacing screw in fuses and edison fuses and such only...blah blah...no new work....".
> 
> I just dont have much experience or expertise here, thats all..


If you are adding a circuit, wouldn't it have a EGC? If you are extending circuits, then that has nothing to do with the OCPD that is 210.12(B) NEC 2011 . Are you on NEC 2011? Then you need to use AF on some(most) circuits. If that is the case, upgrade to a breaker panel. If you have Edison-Base fuseholders then you need to use an adapter so they are S type, 240.52


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## Southeast Power

MHElectric said:


> Got a couple fuse box questions, need someone to explain this monster to me. Sorry if I explain this like a 2-year old, I dont have any pics to show what I'm talking about. Oh well, I dont have to many customers that have fuse boxes, but I spent more time today troubleshooting one than I care to do again.
> 
> 1) IN BETWEEN THE FUSES- Each fuse has a screw that you hook the hot up to, Why is there a screw in between them (that is unfused) that is hot. This sort of throws me for a loop cause I cant see how you could have a terminal to hook something to and not fuse it. MAYBE...I just need this explained to me real well, as I'm sure there is a easy explaination.
> 2)WHY DO THEY ALWAYS HAVE 30 AMP FUSES IN THEM???!!!!????!!! - I pulled them all out and put in 15's and 20's.
> 3) IT IS ILLEGAL TO INSTALL ANYTHING NEW OR EXTENDED ANYTHING OUT OF THESE PANELS....RIGHT??? - Only repair work right? Cuase even if you put a GFI on the receptacle you extend off of, you still cant put in a AFCI fuse.
> 
> ANy other knowledge on this would help. Dont deal with these much but I want to be a little-bit more educated on them when I hit the next one.Thxs!:thumbsup:


OK, first of all always look at the diagram on the cover, you will need this information if you are looking for 220volts.
That being said, you will also notice that those mysterious lugs are actually fused downstream from the main pull out. I have seen these feed a sub-panel on many occasions. 
The real trick working on a fuse panel is to know how to get the fuse adapters out to tighten up the screw behind them. They make a cutter tool for that but a pocket knife works just as good.


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## Clarky

Take the customer to the fuse panel and explain the dangers of being able to use a 30 amp fuse where a 15 amp. fuse should be. The #14 can burn away and start a fire before the 30 amp fuse will blow.REPLACE the panel.


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## guy2073

I do alot of ghetto work. Homeowner can't afford an upgrade. We sometimes install a subpanel off of the range pullout. You can do an afci from the sub. I always make sure the grounding is updated when doing this.


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## dmxtothemax

MHElectric said:


> Got a couple fuse box questions, need someone to explain this monster to me. Sorry if I explain this like a 2-year old, I dont have any pics to show what I'm talking about. Oh well, I dont have to many customers that have fuse boxes, but I spent more time today troubleshooting one than I care to do again.
> 
> 1) IN BETWEEN THE FUSES- Each fuse has a screw that you hook the hot up to, Why is there a screw in between them (that is unfused) that is hot. This sort of throws me for a loop cause I cant see how you could have a terminal to hook something to and not fuse it. MAYBE...I just need this explained to me real well, as I'm sure there is a easy explaination.
> 2)WHY DO THEY ALWAYS HAVE 30 AMP FUSES IN THEM???!!!!????!!! - I pulled them all out and put in 15's and 20's.
> 3) IT IS ILLEGAL TO INSTALL ANYTHING NEW OR EXTENDED ANYTHING OUT OF THESE PANELS....RIGHT??? - Only repair work right? Cuase even if you put a GFI on the receptacle you extend off of, you still cant put in a AFCI fuse.
> 
> ANy other knowledge on this would help. Dont deal with these much but I want to be a little-bit more educated on them when I hit the next one.Thxs!:thumbsup:


1 - Its called a loop terminal, so you can use one incoming wire
and feed several fuses.

2 - Probably thats the way they were supplied from the factory,
and at that time ( could be a long time ago ! ) it was the 
most common used.

3 - They are trying to get every one to use breakers instead of 
fuses, it stops idiots from using coins or what ever else to get
the circuit working again, should it blow.


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## Briancraig81

To answer the question about the EGC, you could always install an isolated bar and use it as the neutral bar and use the current neutral bar as the ground bar. Don't know why you would want too but it would work.

I've got a 4 circuit fuse panel in the house i'm renting. On mine the unfused hots you desribed (actually fused by the main) feed the water heater and the used a peice of #8 SEU stuck under the lugs feeding the main pull out feeding a four circuit panel that feed the dryer and 240v A/C outlet. Puzzling but I had one of my foremen tell my that was probably code back then but the Feed and SER should have been split-bolted and pigtailed :001_huh:. I just don't see how, unless it falls under the tap rule.


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## MHElectric

guy2073 said:


> I do alot of ghetto work. Homeowner can't afford an upgrade. We sometimes install a subpanel off of the range pullout. You can do an afci from the sub. I always make sure the grounding is updated when doing this.


 Didnt think about possibly using the range pullout to feed a new panel, under the right circumstances this would be a great call. And your right...not everybody can afford an upgrade, most fuse boxes I've seen were either in a run down part of town or way out in the country.


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## chicken steve

The old main, range & four wadsworths were made with daisychaining in mind....~CS~


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## Southeast Power

The first house I owned had a fuse panel. It was working perfectly when I sold the house. It had been just fine for the first 40 years, why would I need to change it?
Also had a three wire range and a three wire dryer.


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## chicken steve

the breakercabal?

~CS~


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## Southeast Power

chicken steve said:


> the breakercabal?
> 
> ~cs~


η κλίκα διακόπτη?


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## kbsparky

dmxtothemax said:


> 1 - Its called a loop terminal, so you can use one incoming wire
> and feed several fuses....


Those lugs are there for connection to another sub-panel, but are still protected by the main fuses in the main pullout.



> 2 - Probably thats the way they were supplied from the factory,
> and at that time ( could be a long time ago ! ) it was the
> most common used....


Fuse boxes did not come with fuses installed from the factory. This is a common problem in the US, where most fuse boxes have 30 Amp plug fuses installed on circuits that should be protected by 15 and 20 Amp fuses. The problem is those 15 Amp fuses blow easily, and homeowners simply install 30's in there to prevent what they think is nuisance blowing of fuses. Very bad practice, and one reason why many insurance companies are denying coverage to homes that still have these old fuse boxes in them. 

You are correct in that some creative folks used a penny behind the fuse when they didn't have a replacement fuse on hand to restore power. I used to have a collection of them that I have removed from fuse boxes, mostly from rental units....

The 1968 NEC addressed this issue and mandated that type "S" fuses be used on all new installations using fuse boxes on smaller circuits. The type S fuses needed non-removable adapters that had different size threads for each size fuse. This physically prevented anyone from installing a fuse larger than was intended for the circuit. The smaller size base also prevented one from using a penny in the fuseholder... :whistling2:

PS: A US penny is about the same physical size as your five cent coin.


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## chicken steve

jrannis said:


> η κλίκα διακόπτη?


 
αγώνα ή διακόπτη;

~κοτόπουλο steve~


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## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> αγώνα ή διακόπτη;
> 
> ~κοτόπουλο steve~


No less clear than 87.832% of your posts. :laughing:


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> No less clear than 87.832% of your posts. :laughing:


:lol:


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## Shockdoc

Type S fuses.


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## joethemechanic

Shockdoc said:


> Type S fuses.



I never liked them. If I remember right you couldn't put a smaller S in a bigger S socket. And you couldn't install a bulb or an adapter for trouble shooting.

I liked the 26 mm Edison Screw.

Somewhere around I had some E26 screw breakers for installing in a fuse box. I think they were sold by Sears. They had a little button in the center to reset them. I wonder how well they worked.


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## Big John

joethemechanic said:


> ...Somewhere around I had some E26 screw breakers for installing in a fuse box. I think they were sold by Sears. They had a little button in the center to reset them. I wonder how well they worked.


 I've seen those. I always wondered why they never caught on? Maybe folks just didn't blow enough fuses to bother with them?

-John


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## frenchelectrican

Big John said:


> I've seen those. I always wondered why they never caught on? Maybe folks just didn't blow enough fuses to bother with them?
> 
> -John


 
John.,

I have see both Américane and European verison of the screw in breakers and the reason why it was not too popular at that time is the cost the last one I have see and install one was a year ago the cost was over 22 Euros for one  thing vs 2 Euros for standard plug fuse.

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve

http://www.o-digital.com/wholesale-...01-Screw-Type-Mini-Circuit-Breaker-53373.html

~CS~


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## cortez

MHElectric said:


> Didnt think about possibly using the range pullout to feed a new panel, under the right circumstances this would be a great call. And your right...not everybody can afford an upgrade, most fuse boxes I've seen were either in a run down part of town or way out in the country.


The range pullout is the poor man's way to add circuits and be legal.


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## Podagrower

Big John said:


> I've seen those. I always wondered why they never caught on? Maybe folks just didn't blow enough fuses to bother with them?
> 
> -John


I have one of those breakers on the van for troubleshooting, and demonstration purposes.


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## kbatku

dmxtothemax said:


> They are trying to get every one to use breakers instead of fuses, it stops idiots from using coins or what ever else to get the circuit working again, should it blow.


I don't know how many 30 and 40 amp breakers I've removed from #12 ans #14 circuits. Nothing is hard-core idiot proof, assuming the idiot has a screwdriver, some strippers and a bigger breaker.

When I have a homeowner tell me that the circuit is tripping and "needs a bigger breaker" what my mind translates that to is "The circuit is inadequate for the load. Could you please install a larger circuit, then send me the bill which I will happily pay".


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## guy2073

cortez said:


> The range pullout is the poor man's way to add circuits and be legal.


 
If only you knew how poor our customers are. I work for a company that does state funded handicap accessible renovations. The state or county will not pay for electrical upgrades. Homeowners are on there own. I am the least profitable division of our company.


I don't like using the range pullout, but A man has to do what a man has to do.


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## cortez

guy2073 said:


> If only you knew how poor our customers are. I work for a company that does state funded handicap accessible renovations. The state or county will not pay for electrical upgrades. Homeowners are on there own. I am the least profitable division of our company.
> 
> 
> I don't like using the range pullout, but A man has to do what a man has to do.


I agree as it is safe and up to code here in 
Chicago-land. Many people are in ruins due to the economy being in a huge slump which makes upgraded to breakers a sure no- go. 

Here we have the advantage that most range circuits go unused because gas ranges are much cheaper to operate than the electric ones. 

Many insurance companies want dedicated refrigerator and dedicated washroom circuits and many old panels have only 4 circuits for the whole house. 

The range pullout is easily converter to 2 twenty amp circuits with 20 amp fuse adapters (called "fuse reducers" at Graingers). Then it is simply a matter of running conduit or BX to these insurance "must haves" to remain insured.


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## guest

chicken steve said:


> http://www.o-digital.com/wholesale-...01-Screw-Type-Mini-Circuit-Breaker-53373.html
> 
> ~CS~


Oh great, the FPE/Zinsco of screw-in breakers. :laughing::laughing:

And based on that pic, the thing is so damn big, how are you gonna close the fuse box door?


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## oldtimer

mxslick said:


> Oh great, the FPE/Zinsco of screw-in breakers. :laughing::laughing:
> 
> And based on that pic, the thing is so damn big, how are you gonna close the fuse box door?


 I was going to ask the same question, only not as politely.

BTW, under the picture, it says press icon to view larger image.

Press it, and the exact same size image appears on a full screen!

:laughing::laughing::laughing:



Does anyone remember mini breakers??

I don't think they are still made!


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## guest

joethemechanic said:


> I never liked them. *If I remember right you couldn't put a smaller S in a bigger S socket.* And you couldn't install a bulb or an adapter for trouble shooting.
> 
> I liked the 26 mm Edison Screw.
> 
> Somewhere around I had some E26 screw breakers for installing in a fuse box. I think they were sold by Sears. They had a little button in the center to reset them. I wonder how well they worked.


Sort of. Some of the adapters would accept a few steps smaller of fuse. We had a septic tank aerator motor that took an odd size Type S fuse, and there were a few smaller sizes that worked in the holder. 

Look at this data sheet, scroll down past the first set of fuses and you'll see a table of Type S adapters and the range of fuses they will accept. Looks like anything below a 20amp adapter will accept multiple fuse sizes. 

http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/plug2.pdf

:thumbup:


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## chicken steve

oldtimer said:


> Does anyone remember mini breakers??
> 
> I don't think they are still made!


yeah, used to have a bunch in stock 

not that there was any huge request for them....

~CS~


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## frenchelectrican

Cortez.,

I know you posted the fuse reducer however IMO it not always the best move due you still have one issue some homeowner or renter will stick a oversized fuse that one reason why I try to advoid the range fuse block much as possible due you have to be aware someone can end up stick in a 40 or 50 even 60 amp cartage fuse in there.

You know the rest of the details when overload do happend with 40 amp fuse or larger. ( be ready to call the pompiers < Fire Dept > ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## retiredsparktech

Big John said:


> I've seen those. I always wondered why they never caught on? Maybe folks just didn't blow enough fuses to bother with them?
> 
> -John


Those Mini-breakers can't even carry an 80% continuous load.


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## RePhase277

frenchelectrican said:


> Cortez.,
> 
> I know you posted the fuse reducer however IMO it not always the best move due you still have one issue some homeowner or renter will stick a oversized fuse that one reason why I try to advoid the range fuse block much as possible due you have to be aware someone can end up stick in a 40 or 50 even 60 amp cartage fuse in there.
> 
> You know the rest of the details when overload do happend with 40 amp fuse or larger. ( be ready to call the pompiers < Fire Dept > )
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


I think he meant to use the range fuse pull out to feed a subpanel, not a branch circuit.


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## frenchelectrican

cortez said:


> The range pullout is the poor man's way to add circuits and be legal.





cortez said:


> I agree as it is safe and up to code here in
> Chicago-land. Many people are in ruins due to the economy being in a huge slump which makes upgraded to breakers a sure no- go.
> 
> Here we have the advantage that most range circuits go unused because gas ranges are much cheaper to operate than the electric ones.
> 
> Many insurance companies want dedicated refrigerator and dedicated washroom circuits and many old panels have only 4 circuits for the whole house.
> 
> The range pullout is easily converter to *2 twenty amp circuits with 20 amp fuse adapters* (called "fuse reducers" at Graingers). Then it is simply a matter of running conduit or BX to these insurance "must haves" to remain insured.


 



InPhase277 said:


> I think he meant to use the range fuse pull out to feed a subpanel, not a branch circuit.


InPhase277 I did bolded the print which he stated 2X20 amp circuits and I did mention I am not too crazy with fuse reducers in case someone have no patice to get the correct cartage fuse size for the circuit and it easier to find a full sized cartage fuse which we useally know they are come 35 amp and up unless it have reducer sleeve in there but again same oldé story someone can jam a 30 amp cartage in there.

IMO it no differnt than the plain jane plug fuse when some person have to change it and put a larger one so they claim that it don't blow often. 

I hope that clear up the facts here.

If that person did use subpanel route then I don't have to worry too much unless someone ran undersized conductors.

Merci,
Marc


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## cortez

frenchelectrican said:


> InPhase277 I did bolded the print which he stated 2X20 amp circuits and I did mention I am not too crazy with fuse reducers in case someone have no patice to get the correct cartage fuse size for the circuit and it easier to find a full sized cartage fuse which we useally know they are come 35 amp and up unless it have reducer sleeve in there but again same oldé story someone can jam a 30 amp cartage in there.
> 
> IMO it no differnt than the plain jane plug fuse when some person have to change it and put a larger one so they claim that it don't blow often.
> 
> I hope that clear up the facts here.
> 
> If that person did use subpanel route then I don't have to worry too much unless someone ran undersized conductors.
> 
> 
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


I meant using only the fuse reducers and BX or conduit to complete the circuits. 

Homeowners know how to do this. They do it all the time --that's why I said it was the poor man's solution to insurance requirements (or code requirements). 

Before "You Tube" there was the "Grape Vine" and the poor have always persevered in their problem solving activities when it comes to electrical requirements ( or any other building code problems!!!). 

Yes, one can over fuse the Range reduced fuses but any Edison base fuses are also over-fusible (here in Chicago Edison fuses are allowed as long as "there is no evidence of over-fusing" for grandfathered Old Work). 

Personally adding a sub panel is only at most an extra half hour and is up to code as long as the main box's pull outs will de-electrify it. 

I have plenty of usable boxes saved from previous upgrades and thus is not economically prohibitive to my customers ( labor only). I use only 12 gauge wire for these, so it is up to code in any twenty amp circuit. These are either small breaker boxes or Medium Edison fuse boxes converted to S Type safety fuses, either of which are up to code.  

I will not ordinarily add a reduced fuse circuit only, due to the liability involved and the question of being up to code (technically it may be up to code but inspectors may disallow them anyway).


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