# Sanity check before I submit this quote



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Everything her I’ve done before, it’s just been a while. 

Customer had a power survey conducted by a 3rd party vendor who found 2 each 225A 480V sub panels feed by one set of 3/0 THHN 350’. It’s been working for many years but the customer wants to add 3 more machines To one of the panels. 

I figure the easiest way to fix it is to run a new 2” EMT and 3/0 from the switch gear and split the panels. 

With a tugger, are 3 guys enough to feed 330’ of 3/0?

Every panel in the building that I’ve seen is grounded through the conduit, I don’t know ho much I trust 33 set screw couplers for an EGC 

The way I see the run, I only have 4 90’s in it, if I do decide to add a pull box, 18X18X8?

How hack is it to run 2” LMFC from the switchgear 6’ to a sub panel?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

pull box for sure should be added
is 18" big enough ?
more likely 24 x 8 (use it like an LB) and six is probably deep enough unless you are splicing two pulls
no flex allowed lol
plan the end of the run better

how do you have 4 - 90s in a six foot run ??
do you have to enter and exit from other than the top?
if so why not two jbx's used like LBs
chase nipple thru the back of the panel and gear strate into the jbx (fastened to the panel, because it is that close)
two men could do it like that easy
i dont care for LBs on big wire, they are not nearly big enough to avoid a serious fight with the wires, along with scraping them on the edges


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i just re-read your post, overlook the 6' solution i mentioned
but do consider the long jbx instead of an LB


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

18x18 should be big enough. 4 -90's are definitely going to make it a hard pull so the pull box would be a great help.
I don't think it is hack to run 6' of lfmc


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 18x18 should be big enough. 4 -90's are definitely going to make it a hard pull so the pull box would be a great help.
> I don't think it is hack to run 6' of lfmc


I agree, but just make sure the conduits have the required 12" of separation. 

I pulled 600' of (3) #3/0, 1 #4 in 2" PVC with 360 degrees of bends. Me, tugger, and two men feeding off reels. No problems (except I about crapped myself in that I had about 6" left on the shortest wire).


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

five.five-six said:


> With a tugger, are 3 guys enough to feed 330’ of 3/0?


 Should be. It's all about the planning and setup.


> Every panel in the building that I’ve seen is grounded through the conduit, I don’t know ho much I trust 33 set screw couplers for an EGC


If this is a steel building then you also have all the supports connected to the steel to carry a ground. Enough electricians that I respect have repeatedly said that the conduit is a better ground that I no longer worry about it. I used to share your concern.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> how do you have 4 - 90s in a six foot run ??
> do you have to enter and exit from other than the top?
> if so why not two jbx's used like LBs
> chase nipple thru the back of the panel and gear strate into the jbx (fastened to the panel, because it is that close)


It’s kind of a rats nest of 2” EMT right by the switch gear, I already have to move a TC101 to put my extra sub panel where I want it. 

The switchgear is full, I’m replacing a 40A 3 pole breaker in the switch gear with a 225A breaker and feeding a new sub panel right at the switchgear, that new panel gets a 225A breaker to feed the panel in question 330’ away and I’m adding a 40A breaker to refeed the breaker space I stole for the 225A in the switchgear.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> pull box for sure should be added
> is 18" big enough ?
> more likely 24 x 8 (use it like an LB) and six is probably deep enough unless you are splicing two pulls


you are talking like a 24” 8X8 gutter?


building is a tilt up, I’m hanging conduit from the roof. I guess I could start in the middle and pull both ways from the gutter. Then I only have 2 90’s on each pull. Trying to avoid splices.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I never install a conduit with out a bare ground wire. I have seen to many places where the conduit was pulled apart or modified by the owner for one stupid reason or another. The debate rages on over ground conductors. 

I agree about no LB's or the like long gutters and enter and exit from the ends. If your using it for a pull point then you will be much happier when your not fighting trying to get the cover on. 

I am a firm believer in paying for the best or appropriate materials is better than spending money on labor.

What does split the panels mean? Gotta be careful you would not want one machine running and its mate for the process to go down. Better to have them both fail together. 

Why are you running conduit inside the gear? Not familiar with LMFC


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

oldsparky52 said:


> No problems (except I about crapped myself in that I had about 6" left on the shortest wire).


I always considered that a point of pride, the less scrap that I cut off to terminate, the better. I use Muletape to make accurate wire measurements to order my cuts.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Double post


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

SWDweller said:


> What does split the panels mean?


The three 3/0’s in that can are connected to 1/0 jumpers with kerny’s to feed each panel. 











Gotta be careful you would not want one machine running and its mate for the process to go down. Better to have them both fail together.

Why are you running conduit inside the gear? Not familiar with LMFC
[/QUOTE]


No photo but the seal tight is to get from the switch gear to a new sub panel right next to it. There is so much **** going on around the switchgear, it would be a CF to do it in EMT.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> I always considered that a point of pride, the less scrap that I cut off to terminate, the better. I use Muletape to make accurate wire measurements to order my cuts.


I use true tape, the last mule tape I got didn’t have foot markings. 


Good question though, what size mule tape for this pull?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i would rather be 10' long than 1" short

i used to do careful tape measurements and count joints, 90s, and fittings
always overkill, the mill bought it not me


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

You are using 3/0 with a 225A breaker? Last time I checked it was only good for 200A.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

I use this instead of Jboxes or conduit bodies., usually a 4’ x4”x4”. I try to put it where it’s easy to get to to feed or pull from.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

five.five-six said:


> I use true tape, the last mule tape I got didn’t have foot markings.
> 
> 
> Good question though, what size mule tape for this pull?


I use the 1800# stuff for everything. I think it’s 3/4” wide.
I did an ugly underground service from a private substation to a block building that ended up having about 540 degrees of turns, and about 125’ total length of 2” pvc. I pulled in the 2, #2, and 1,#4 copper thhn wires with a Gehl mini-ex “tugger”.
After a mule tape pull, if you don’t gather it up yourself, the ever present deer hunters fight over it for those difficult deep hollow extractions.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

3 guys and a tugger will have no problem with it. 

If you use a 18X18 can, make it so you can pull through it, don't use it as a 90. And do indeed pull through it, one continuous pull. If it's getting hard to pull when the head goes through the can, you have the option of splicing in the can.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> View attachment 171051
> I use this instead of Jboxes or conduit bodies., usually a 4’ x4”x4”. I try to put it where it’s easy to get to to feed or pull from.


I like that idea, I’ll have to put it about 18’ up hanging from the roof to get it middle of the run. I should be able to feed it from the lift with a guy running ground support.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> I use the 1800# stuff for everything. I think it’s 3/4” wide.
> I did an ugly underground service from a private substation to a block building that ended up having about 540 degrees of turns, and about 125’ total length of 2” pvc. I pulled in the 2, #2, and 1,#4 copper thhn wires with a Gehl mini-ex “tugger”.
> After a mule tape pull, if you don’t gather it up yourself, the ever present deer hunters fight over it for those difficult deep hollow extractions.


That wide stuff is really nice if you are worried about burning PVC 90’s 

I don’t pull a lot of feeders, I‘ll have to look see what stuff I have


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Yea! I got the PO! Thanks for the help.

Anything special I need to know when changing an I-line breaker out in older square D switchgear?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Congrats. I hope you do well.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

five.five-six said:


> Yea! I got the PO! Thanks for the help.
> 
> Anything special I need to know when changing an I-line breaker out in older square D switchgear?


you should probably start a new thread for a new question
i almost didnt look at this because i had looked several times before


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Congrats. I hope you do well.


I think I will do well, I ended up getting a heads up on my competitor’s quote. My estimate was about 25% of that but I added 40% to my bid and still came in under 1/2 that quote.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> you should probably start a new thread for a new question
> i almost didnt look at this because i had looked several times before


I’ll do that.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

five.five-six said:


> I think I will do well, I ended up getting a heads up on my competitor’s quote. My estimate was about 25% of that but I added 40% to my bid and still came in under 1/2 that quote.


Either you guys were looking at different jobs or ...?

Customer gave you a look at his quote? Wow, now that's customer relations.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

possibly they had two proposals handed out and the other had addendums and caveats
or the other guy intended to get compensated for his injuries or risk ?
maybe he just chose to bid himself out of the job because he didnt really want it ?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> possibly they had two proposals handed out and the other had addendums and caveats
> or the other guy intended to get compensated for his injuries or risk ?
> maybe he just chose to bid himself out of the job because he didnt really want it ?


I think the other guy just thought it was a small enough amount it would just sail through purchasing. 

The owner of the company and I have been riding sand dunes together for 25 years. His building services department started the ball rolling and had the power survey done and requested the bid for repairs. 

When the bid came across the owners desk, he gave me a call and asked if that price seemed right. not knowing the scope of work, I said it would be really cheep for upgrading the switch gear and really expensive for adding a panel. 

Once he asked for me to bid the job, I told him I didn’t want to hear anymore about the price on the competitor’s bid, it would be unethical. 

Anyways, I’m pretty sure I’m getting all of the their work moving forward.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Either you guys were looking at different jobs or ...?
> 
> Customer gave you a look at his quote? Wow, now that's customer relations.


I have not seen their other quote and I actually haven’t seen the power survey either but now that I have the job, I’d like to see both.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Well it's sure nice to hear some good news. Looks like a great relationship. Again, congrats.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> pull box for sure should be added
> is 18" big enough ?
> more likely 24 x 8 (use it like an LB) and six is probably deep enough unless you are splicing two pulls


I ended up installing a 8X8X36 gutter center of the run. It cost me about $200 in materials and 2 hrs in installation. Boy was it worth it. There was no way I was getting that vacuum mouse through without tapping every coupling and even then it would be iffy. just pushed my 200’ tape both directions


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

five.five-six said:


> I ended up installing a 8X8X36 gutter center of the run. It cost me about $200 in materials and 2 hrs in installation. Boy was it worth it. There was no way I was getting that vacuum mouse through without tapping every coupling and even then it would be iffy. just pushed my 200’ tape both directions


Did you pull straight through the gutter or pull two halves?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> Did you pull straight through the gutter or pull two halves?


 It’s setup to pull straight through. About 80’ of straight pipe on either end. I put a seismic brace right next to it so it’s pretty solid but it’s 18’ off the floor.


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