# Cutting a meter lock



## heyhi11

Question is ...... buh buuum Is the lock ring around the meter mandatory? If i dont have time to wait for CON ED can I cut the lock with out giving the home owner problems?


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## mikeh32

yeah, cut it, but be sure to put a cable tie back on it


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## heyhi11

What if I run into a situation where Im not pulling permit, I cut the lock, and con ed comes and noticed theres no lock will the owner have problems


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## Edrick

Why are you not pulling a permit?


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## mikeh32

there wont be any problems at all. Just leave a note


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## Edrick

Telling them you didn't want to deal with a permit and wanted to do the job dirt cheap to save money.


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## heyhi11

Seriously tho, Will the owner get fined if I just cut the lock off. Theres always owners that don't wanna pull permits.


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## Edrick

and it's your job to inform them it's the law. But I can't speak as to the trouble they'll get in but you can bet your ass if they do they'll blame you and say you said they didn't need one


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## MDShunk

The law that would be broken would be the law you broke as the guy who cut the lock off... destroying someone else's property. There's no "fine" to the homeowner, since the poco would have to prove they stole power, which they didn't. Contrary to the widely held popular belief, there are no laws broken when you remove and reinstall a meter, as long as you did not use power that was unmetered (steal power) or tamper with the calibration of the meter (another way of stealing power). 

Here's the kicker... the power company is not legally obligated to give them power. I've done 3 calls in the past where the power company was sufficiently curious about the removal of their meter seal that they cut power to the dwelling entirely pending inspection by an electrician to certify that the interior wiring was safe.


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## Shockdoc

Con Ed does not play, do not cut their locks. do not jump their meters as a temp. I know an electrician who they sent the cops out to arrest becuase he left the meter jumped out. They give adapters for 110 v to 220 volt upgrades and they do cut locks in a timely fashion. I got a couple Con Ed guys living on my block whichis helpful forwhen i need to venture into the boros. I assume you are not a lic NYC EC as I am not either, your customer will catch a charge for tampering.


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## r_merc

When you cut the meter seal then your license is at risk. Your Licensing board can suspend your license and fine you. As Alton Brown would say "Just walk away." Seriously if your customer doesn't want to get permits then you need to fire the customer and move on because he is asking for you to put your livelyhood at risk to "save" some money. How much time and effort and training have you invested to obtain a license...... Find a different customer


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## HARRY304E

heyhi11 said:


> Seriously tho, Will the owner get fined if I just cut the lock off. Theres always owners that don't wanna pull permits.


You should allways pull permits on your jobs,,,Otherwise any Electrical defects can be pinned on you why take the risk and trust the work others did before you,,If there is an Electrical fire they are going to nail the last Electrician that worked there,,,If you pull a permit and pass inspection then you canot be held for the work of others..just the stuff listed on you're permit.


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## pudge565

MDShunk said:


> Here's the kicker... the power company is not legally obligated to give them power. I've done 3 calls in the past where the power company was sufficiently curious about the removal of their meter seal that they cut power to the dwelling entirely pending inspection by an electrician to certify that the interior wiring was safe.


I think during the winter months there are certain requirements needing to be met before cutting power to a residence. I may be wrong.


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## jwjrw

r_merc said:


> When you cut the meter seal then your license is at risk. Your Licensing board can suspend your license and fine you. As Alton Brown would say "Just walk away." Seriously if your customer doesn't want to get permits then you need to fire the customer and move on because he is asking for you to put your livelyhood at risk to "save" some money. How much time and effort and training have you invested to obtain a license...... Find a different customer



Every electrician I know in NC cuts the meter seal to pull a meter out. No one cares. Your license is not at risk for cutting the tab. However it would be at risk for doing the job without a permit


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## stumptown

I can't speak for your area, but in Oregon there usually isn't a problem if you contact the utility company to inform them that you had to pull the meter due to an interior alteration, repair, etc. We are also issued "emergency" cards that are to be placed on the meter tab location until replaced by the Utility Company.


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## stumptown

I love it on here when somebody post some crap like, "when doing something illegal, how do I....". 


I'm not saying that the OP is this situation, but you know what I mean...


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## guest

stumptown said:


> I love it on here when somebody post some crap like, "when doing something illegal, how do I....".
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that the OP is this situation, but you know what I mean...


Well I'll say it then. The OP is doing a very stupid thing, and yes the HO can get in trouble for it, double jeopardy (actually triple) as the HO can get fined by the POCO, the POCO can cut off the power fro non-permitted work, the AHJ can order the power cut because of the lack of permit....and if all this is discovered the HO can wave bye-bye to their home insurance. 

And for what? 

I agree with r_merc and HARRY304E. Walk away from customers like that or risk losing your license and business.


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## stumptown

mxslick said:


> Well I'll say it then. The OP is doing a very stupid thing, and yes the HO can get in trouble for it, double jeopardy (actually triple) as the HO can get fined by the POCO, the POCO can cut off the power fro non-permitted work, the AHJ can order the power cut because of the lack of permit....and if all this is discovered the HO can wave bye-bye to their home insurance.
> 
> And for what?
> 
> I agree with r_merc and HARRY304E. Walk away from customers like that or risk losing your license and business.


I agree. Why take the chance.


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## BBQ

What is really funny is when he asked this question at Holts he listed himself not as an electrician but as ..



> Occupation
> owner
> 
> How are you related to the electrical industry?
> owner of building


Of course I closed the thread.


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## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> What is really funny is when he asked this question at Holts he listed himself not as an electrician but as ..
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I closed the thread.


He must love it over there posted 2 threads and had 2 threads closed.:laughing::laughing:


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## guest

HARRY304E said:


> He must love it over there posted 2 threads and had 2 threads closed.:laughing::laughing:


I sense a closing of his third one (first one here) next.....:laughing::laughing::whistling2:

Krikeys!! Just noticed that he was the one who started this thread http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/replacing-fuse-box-21383/
too.....


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## HARRY304E

mxslick said:


> I sense a closing of his third one (first one here) next.....:laughing::laughing::whistling2:
> 
> Krikeys!! Just noticed that he was the one who started this thread http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/replacing-fuse-box-21383/
> too.....


Now we know why his price was so low he is a fake Electrician..:laughing:
In the second thread over there he come right out and says he is just a building Owner..:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


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## tkb

heyhi11 said:


> Question is ...... buh buuum Is the lock ring around the meter mandatory? If i dont have time to wait for CON ED can I cut the lock with out giving the home owner problems?


Expect the full wrath of ConEd and the NYC electrical inspectors to come down on you with the police.

I am sure you are not a licensed NYC electrical contractor or you would not be asking such a stupid question.


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## Smoke

i have locks and seals on hand, if you interact with the power company often they dont mind giving you a few extras to keep them from coming back for something simple.
maybe just me, i never had an issue getting extras out of the power company.
saves both of us time if we are not hacks....


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## 220/221

I assume you are talking about cutting the little wire/plastic tag thingy. The *locks* around here are a bear to cut off. 

POCO's have different rules. 

Here, we cant even touch their stuff for any reason. That doesn't stop me but it does slow me down. For a main breaker service call, I just clip the tag and replace it, almost good as new.

Cut it flush on one side with dikes then tweak it with needlenose and reinsert it.


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## GDK 13

Out here we have the little metal wire tab around the meter, and also the barrel lock. This guy probably wants to grind off the barrel lock. 

OP: give me the job, I'll file it with ConEd, and get it done the right way.:thumbup:


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## Smoke

220/221 said:


> I assume you are talking about cutting the little wire/plastic tag thingy. The *locks* around here are a bear to cut off.
> 
> POCO's have different rules.
> 
> Here, we cant even touch their stuff for any reason. That doesn't stop me but it does slow me down. For a main breaker service call, I just clip the tag and replace it, almost good as new.
> 
> Cut it flush on one side with dikes then tweak it with needlenose and reinsert it.



in this pic you show a "seal" a lock is a brass lock 1/4-3/8 shackle (keyed).
just what we have here. and here if you cut off the "seal" first time they make a note, second time they twist ur jewls, or the home owner.
once is oops 2 times is stealing power, just my interpretation.


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## Smoke

fyi,
" seals" are on meters, "locks" are on gear and assoc. equipment.


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## 480sparky

220/221 said:


> I assume you are talking about cutting the little wire/plastic tag thingy. The *locks* around here are a bear to cut off.
> 
> POCO's have different rules.
> 
> Here, we cant even touch their stuff for any reason. That doesn't stop me but it does slow me down. For a main breaker service call, I just clip the tag and replace it, almost good as new.
> 
> Cut it flush on one side with dikes then tweak it with needlenose and reinsert it.



I cheat. I use the seals the POCO gives me.


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## 220/221

480sparky said:


> I cheat. I use the seals the POCO gives me.


 
Life is easier in Cornpatch:thumbup:

I probably run into the situation once a month. I am supposed to call the POCO, wait on hold for 10-15 minutes, then wait for them to send someone out (a four hour window).

That usually doesn't happen. Once in a while, if I am going to be close by and can get right back, I will have the HO call the POCO and call me back when they arrive. Otherwise, I don't have the patience to wait for up to several hours. Also, I don't think I could look the HO in the eye and tell them they wil be paying me several hundred dollars to wait.

I may get bitten in the ass one day but I will probably just do what I've always done and try to be a productive member of society.


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## Mr Rewire

With the COOPs they are happy to let you they save $$ not sending a truck now the big utility they read the meters electronically every 15 minutes if they recieve two consecutive no reading(due to meter pulled) it will trigger a trouble call and they dispatch a truck to find out why.The morning calls are a two hour window 8-10 and the service guy lives down the street so I usually get the first run.


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## nitro71

heyhi11 said:


> Question is ...... buh buuum Is the lock ring around the meter mandatory? If i dont have time to wait for CON ED can I cut the lock with out giving the home owner problems?


Maybe you should call Con Ed and ask them.. Just an idea..


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## ecelectric

Here in mass if it has a barrel lock you call if you cut the.seal you just call for a reseal. No big deal


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## HARRY304E

ecelectric said:


> Here in mass if it has a barrel lock you call if you cut the.seal you just call for a reseal. No big deal


barrel lock type are fun to cut you will need more than one sawzall blade..

Welcome to the forum.:thumbup::thumbup: You have been lurking for 2 years..:laughing:


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## Shockdoc

The grinder is my favorite lock cutter and meter ring band cutter. I grind the hinge on the ring bands.


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## r_merc

jwjrw said:


> Every electrician I know in NC cuts the meter seal to pull a meter out. No one cares. Your license is not at risk for cutting the tab. However it would be at risk for doing the job without a permit


I have personal experience with this. The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors sanctioned me because I worked in a meterbase where the seal was missing before i got there (Changed out the SE Cable to SER and added ATS). Home owner testified to this and they stipulated it as fact that I did not cut the seal. I had permits in hand. POCO saw new generator and filed the complaint.  *I'm telling you don't mess with it.* Jessy Skinner who is the field rep for the NCBEEC for where I'm at will not be gentle about it. Even the POCO north of where I'm at which used to be very Lax about it has tightened up. They used to give you seals. I had one guy give me the tool to remove the barrel lock. Not no more they will turn you in too.


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## jwjrw

r_merc said:


> I have personal experience with this. The NC Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors sanctioned me because I worked in a meterbase where the seal was missing before i got there (Changed out the SE Cable to SER and added ATS). Home owner testified to this and they stipulated it as fact that I did not cut the seal. I had permits in hand. POCO saw new generator and filed the complaint.  *I'm telling you don't mess with it.* Jessy Skinner who is the field rep for the NCBEEC for where I'm at will not be gentle about it. Even the POCO north of where I'm at which used to be very Lax about it has tightened up. They used to give you seals. I had one guy give me the tool to remove the barrel lock. Not no more they will turn you in too.


What power company? What county are you in? What was the rule# they charged you with violating? If you had a permit on what grounds did poco have to complain? I have never heard or read in the newsletter anyone being sanctioned for that. We have been cutting seals for 40 years and NEVER has any of the 4 or 5 Poco's we deal with care. If duke doesn't show up on time to cut an overhead loose we and everyone else here cuts it loose. Sounds like someone has it out for you to me.


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## BBQ

jwjrw said:


> If you had a permit on what grounds did poco have to complain?


You put your hands on their cash registrar.

Very likely the customer service agreement has language in it that addresses this and as Marc pointed out if they wanted they can instantly suspend service.


Nothing is a problem ..... until it is and then it sucks.


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## r_merc

*OK do it your way then*



jwjrw said:


> What was the rule# they charged you with violating? If you had a permit on what grounds did poco have to complain? .


I was charged with Chapter 87-47 (a1) (7)
*87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.* (a1) The following activities are prohibited:
(1) Offering to engage or engaging in electrical contracting without being licensed.
(2) Selling, transferring, or assigning a license, regardless of whether for a fee.
(3) Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person, partnership, firm, or corporation to offer to engage or to engage in electrical contracting.
(4) Being convicted of a crime involving fraud or moral turpitude.
(5) Engaging in fraud or misrepresentation to obtain a certification, obtain or renew a license, or practice electrical contracting.
(6) Engaging in false or misleading advertising.
_(7) Engaging in malpractice, unethical conduct, fraud, deceit, gross negligence, gross incompetence, or gross misconduct in the practice of electrical contracting._​Basically it is considered malpractice. You as a contractor are violating the published rules of the POCO which states that no one but the POCO is to remove the seal for any reason. Special permission may be given on a case to case basis. 

I had to go to a class that the NCBEEC wanted me to go to and was put on probation for 18 Months. With the statement that any future violation would cause a suspension of license for a year.

I'm telling you they are telling the POCOs this. They don't want us contractors messing with Meter Bases anymore.


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## jwjrw

r_merc said:


> I was charged with Chapter 87-47 (a1) (7)
> *87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.* (a1) The following activities are prohibited:
> (1) Offering to engage or engaging in electrical contracting without being licensed.
> (2) Selling, transferring, or assigning a license, regardless of whether for a fee.
> (3) Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person, partnership, firm, or corporation to offer to engage or to engage in electrical contracting.
> (4) Being convicted of a crime involving fraud or moral turpitude.
> (5) Engaging in fraud or misrepresentation to obtain a certification, obtain or renew a license, or practice electrical contracting.
> (6) Engaging in false or misleading advertising.
> _(7) Engaging in malpractice, unethical conduct, fraud, deceit, gross negligence, gross incompetence, or gross misconduct in the practice of electrical contracting._​Basically it is considered malpractice. You as a contractor are violating the published rules of the POCO which states that no one but the POCO is to remove the seal for any reason. Special permission may be given on a case to case basis.
> 
> I had to go to a class that the NCBEEC wanted me to go to and was put on probation for 18 Months. With the statement that any future violation would cause a suspension of license for a year.
> 
> I'm telling you they are telling the POCOs this. They don't want us contractors messing with Meter Bases anymore.


There is more to this story than you are telling.


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## r_merc

Don't believe me that's fine. I will never cut a seal again.


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## jwjrw

BBQ said:


> You put your hands on their cash registrar.
> 
> Very likely the customer service agreement has language in it that addresses this and as Marc pointed out if they wanted they can instantly suspend service.
> 
> 
> Nothing is a problem ..... until it is and then it sucks.


Actually meter bases are customer owned here. I'm sure they say Duke will even ask me if I need someone to cut it loose. If they thought power was being stolen you are correct they would cut the power.


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