# Declining Union Membership



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

What has caused a decline in union membership?


----------



## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


In the electrical feild or union in general?


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

347sparky said:


> In the electrical feild or union in general?


Let's stick to electrical. Thoughts?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

The basics are massive anti-union lobbying, massive shipping of material construction overseas, increase in the perceived worth of a college degree, the decline of construction ( non-residential ) and a large increase in anti-union legislation.

And a general decline in all construction workers ( union and non-union )
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-great-construction-worker-mystery/255249/


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


In a very poor economy people are forced to take somewhat less than what they would like.. to do the job that is required of them. I honestly don't know why owners try, as best they can, to not give a fair portion of their profits to the workers who helped them get those profits. To me, that borders on a moral issue.
People who know that they work hard, but also know that when they ask for better compensation, they are turned away because they are just ONE person in a crowd and the company can just discard them and they may turn to union representation. In a good economy when labor is at a premium..."The company really needs you," they will pay through their teeth because they have to. Unions keep them straight...the worker gets their portion of the pie.
Times are rough, these days. When we are afraid it is understandable that those higher up in the union are, as well. People won't join if their leadership is afraid.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


In a nutshell. Bean counters and lawyers.


----------



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Union membership is declining because everything we have fought for is now a federal law. The average employee thinks nothing of what has formed their work experience as it is today. When wages and benefits hit rock bottom the trade unions will experience a resurgence, as of right now nobody sees the need for unions.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


Excluding people from joining .


----------



## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

Our union is geting more members. Guys are geting tired of the other union B.S They just want to work.L.O.L ex 1788


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

greenman said:


> Our union is geting more members. Guys are geting tired of the other union B.S They just want to work.L.O.L ex 1788


So, you formed a union to fight unions? What a fascinating contradiction.


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

big2bird said:


> So, you formed a union to fight unions? What a fascinating contradiction.


To fight, or maybe to just offer an alternative?


----------



## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

We were 1788 and whent on our own. Did not like how thing were going.
We were not being treated fair.
Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.
*Objects of the Union:* Honesty, Integrity, Fairness, Equality, Respectful Treatment, Family, Consideration, Common Sense, Decisions Benefiting the Members, Decisions, Promoting the Workers, Involvement (including stakeholders), Democratic Processes.



big2bird said:


> So, you formed a union to fight unions? What a
> fascinating contradiction.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

greenman said:


> We were 1788 and whent on our own. Did not like how thing were going.
> We were not being treated fair.
> Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.
> Objects of the Union: Honesty, Integrity, Fairness, Equality, Respectful Treatment, Family, Consideration, Common Sense, Decisions Benefiting the Members, Decisions, Promoting the Workers, Involvement (including stakeholders), Democratic Processes.


Direct union competition. I like that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Complacency.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Excluding people from joining .


That is the biggest problem. Lot's of guys get mad or upset when they are turned down and that is understandable. I know I don't like rejection. Fact is, *it's not* a matter of a man being turned down simply based on his talents. The constitution say's to organize everyman in the electrical industry, yet we can't because every local is a delicate system concerning the benefits and the need for manpower. If over night they organized every electrician in that locals area, the system would fail quickly. If we could fix that issue, I bet we could organize every electrician in the area pretty quickly.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

big2bird said:


> So, you formed a union to fight unions? What a fascinating contradiction.


The non union's union, is the ABC.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> The non union's union, is the ABC.


I know some of the founders. They started it to bust the unions, and when/if they do, it will dissolve like an aspirin in coffee.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> The non union's union, is the ABC.


That's not a labor union, it's a contractors union. It's not looking out for labor at all. Based off my experience with them, Associated Builders and Contractors are a joke.


----------



## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> In a very poor economy people are forced to take somewhat less than what they would like.. to do the job that is required of them. I honestly don't know why owners try, as best they can, to not give a fair portion of their profits to the workers who helped them get those profits. To me, that borders on a moral issue.



I couldn't agree more. A man that has the audacity in order to make more of a profit by compromising his workers wages and health goes farther than being "anti-union". They wonder why we call them rat b*****ds.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

First, all the companies moved south to get cheap labor and get away from the unions. Once they found out how much they liked that idea, they took a dump on the south and headed to Mexico and other countries.
The upsurge in conservative thinking and republican politics have further eroded the unions.
Think Ronald Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers. He busted that union and it has been rolling downhill ever since.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

butcher733 said:


> Union membership is declining because everything we have fought for is now a federal law. The average employee thinks nothing of what has formed their work experience as it is today. When wages and benefits hit rock bottom the trade unions will experience a resurgence, as of right now nobody sees the need for unions.


 
As the kids say WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

As for remembering what workers went through, few generations take the time to thank previous generations for their hard work and sacrafice.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Does the union have a figure in their doctrines that they believe a business owner should be able to make?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Does the union have a figure in their doctrines that they believe a business owner should be able to make?


No. The general consensus is the contractor should make a lot of money and in general the workforce will try to make the contractor money. We know it is a relationship that requires happiness on both sides.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

A major problem I see is that the locals in my area only seem to care about the large shops. Little attention is given to the smaller shops.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> A major problem I see is that the locals in my area only seem to care about the large shops. Little attention is given to the smaller shops.


That was a problem here until 25-28 years ago, some members would leave and start open shops as it was difficult (but not impossible) to operate as a signatory contractor. Now our local is very helpful to all contractors.


----------



## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

It’s not like that. We were ibew doing the power sector. Other locals took our work but we could not take there work or work off there list. How is that right? The ibew is
Is the biggest.......... going? We are run by us. Not an international.
It suck that it us vs them.... it should be fair for all...

Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.
 
*Objects of the Union:* Honesty, Integrity, Fairness, Equality, Respectful Treatment, Family, Consideration, Common Sense, Decisions Benefiting the Members, Decisions, Promoting the Workers, Involvement (including stakeholders), Democratic Processes.



Frasbee said:


> Direct union competition. I like that.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

butcher733 said:


> Union membership is declining because everything we have fought for is now a federal law. The average employee thinks nothing of what has formed their work experience as it is today. When wages and benefits hit rock bottom the trade unions will experience a resurgence, as of right now nobody sees the need for unions.


true Butch

but it ought to be interesting to watch China , which for a commie country has had _all _the indications of capitalism blooming, middle class uprising, and even the seeds of collective barganing being sown

and history repeating.....

~CS~


----------



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> true Butch
> 
> but it ought to be interesting to watch China , which for a commie country has had _all _the indications of capitalism blooming, middle class uprising, and even the seeds of collective barganing being sown
> 
> ...


Thats one smart chicken. Chinas labor price advantage is already narrowing, onto africa!


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

John Valdes said:


> First, all the companies moved south to get cheap labor and get away from the unions. Once they found out how much they liked that idea, they took a dump on the south and headed to Mexico and other countries.
> The upsurge in conservative thinking and republican politics have further eroded the unions.
> Think Ronald Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers. He busted that union and it has been rolling downhill ever since.


Thank you!!


----------



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm non union, but from an outsiders perspective, it seems as if the union has contradictory views compared to the majority of its members. Most tradesmen, union and non union, have conservative views when it comes to politics, but the unions (in general) are the biggest supporters that the democrats have. When union members see their union dues being spent to support things they don't believe in, they start to wonder if the union is really just looking out for the higher ups just like any other private business.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

k_buz said:


> I'm non union, but from an outsiders perspective, it seems as if the union has contradictory views compared to the majority of its members. Most tradesmen, union and non union, have conservative views when it comes to politics, but the unions (in general) are the biggest supporters that the democrats have. When union members see their union dues being spent to support things they don't believe in, they start to wonder if the union is really just looking out for the higher ups just like any other private business.


While the members may have some conservative views, their heart lies with the brotherhood and will often vote this way in hopes that the elected official will further their cause. The ones I know that vote conservative are usually swayed by the abortion issue.

Many voters have single issues that will sway their vote.


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

Here in NYC the difference between being union and non union boils down to pay and safety concerns a union trades men will earn a livable wage where his nonunion counterpart will earn significantly less and is usually less well trained


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

Here's an example of what I mean I worked for a company called Daniel electric we did a 101 unit apartment building here in the bronx they converted it into a shelter Daniels hired like 30 inexperienced guys at $8-10/hr they did not pay overtime just straight time so if you worked 60 hours you got paid straight time for the 60 hours no benefits no Holliday pay or sick days. Plus the site was filthy and there were trip hazards every where because there where no laborers on the site it was a total mess guys where getting hurt and even worst they were getting screwed out of there pay and overtime...


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Itsonlywes said:


> Here's an example of what I mean I worked for a company called Daniel electric we did a 101 unit apartment building here in the bronx they converted it into a shelter Daniels hired like 30 inexperienced guys at $8-10/hr they did not pay overtime just straight time so if you worked 60 hours you got paid straight time for the 60 hours no benefits no Holliday pay or sick days. Plus the site was filthy and there were trip hazards every where because there where no laborers on the site it was a total mess guys where getting hurt and even worst they were getting screwed out of there pay and overtime...


According to most members on here, they were very well trained and happy.:laughing:


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

big2bird said:


> According to most members on here, they were very well trained and happy.:laughing:


I'm not in the Ibew


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> Here's an example of what I mean I worked for a company called Daniel electric we did a 101 unit apartment building here in the bronx they converted it into a shelter *Daniels hired like 30 inexperienced guys at $8-10/hr they did not pay overtime just straight time so if you worked 60 hours you got paid straight time for the 60 hours *no benefits no Holliday pay or sick days. Plus the site was filthy and there were trip hazards every where because there where no laborers on the site it was a total mess guys where getting hurt and even worst they were getting screwed out of there pay and overtime...


Well they are breaking the law, someone should go after them.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Itsonlywes said:


> I'm not in the Ibew


I kinda figured that out.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> Well they are breaking the law, someone should go after them.


But they saved so much money on dues, why interrupt their euphoria?:laughing:


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

brian john said:


> Well they are breaking the law, someone should go after them.


The thing is that company's like that thrive on the fact that people need jobs there almost like predators


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Itsonlywes said:


> The thing is that company's like that thrive on the fact that people need jobs there almost like predators


Almost? Understatement of the year. I have heard this story 100's of times, yet they believe unions are evil. I don't get it, and am trying to understand it, but it just does not compute.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> But they saved so much money on dues, why interrupt their euphoria?:laughing:


Because they impact everyone involved. Unions, open shops, workers, and those that will utilize the facility they are hacking in.


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Almost? Understatement of the year. I have heard this story 100's of times, yet they believe unions are evil. I don't get it, and am trying to understand it, but it just does not compute.


Well here the local 3 is almost impossible to get into as are most of the trade unions


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Itsonlywes said:


> Well here the local 3 is almost impossible to get into as are most of the trade unions


 One of the secrets is to try when work is good. Guys always seem to wait untill work is slow, then apply. Taking on another man when work is slow, and sit him on the bench would not work.
When times are booming, and guys are working, they don't bother. A tad bit of catch 22, but reality all the same.
Apply for the apprenticeship whenever possible. Our starting wages are often higher than non union JW rates, or close.


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

big2bird said:


> One of the secrets is to try when work is good. Guys always seem to wait untill work is slow, then apply. Taking on another man when work is slow, and sit him on the bench would not work.
> When times are booming, and guys are working, they don't bother. A tad bit of catch 22, but reality all the same.
> Apply for the apprenticeship whenever possible. Our starting wages are often higher than non union JW rates, or close.


Now that's an understatement, during the last recruitment period something like 3000 people lined up out side the hall to get a application three thousand plus people were competing for like 100 apprentice spots, people where lined up sence the previous Wednesday to get a app on Monday


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> Now that's an understatement, during the last recruitment period something like 3000 people lined up out side the hall to get a application three thousand plus people were competing for like 100 apprentice spots, people where lined up sence the previous Wednesday to get a app on Monday


There were actually way more than that looking for applications Wes. The way we run our Apprenticeship is that we take 100 initially, plus a number of alternates. Then we take an additional 400 and put them on a list for entrance. When I applied 26yrs ago there were 10,000 people there and that's when they stopped counting. I remember it was in the Daily News back then.

Steve from NYC


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> Well here the local 3 is almost impossible to get into as are most of the trade unions


Yes it's difficult to get into our program. With good reason.

Steve from NYC


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> There were actually way more than that looking for applications Wes. The way we run our Apprenticeship is that we take 100 initially, plus a number of alternates. Then we take an additional 400 and put them on a list for entrance. When I applied 26yrs ago there were 10,000 people there and that's when they stopped counting. I remember it was in the Daily News back then.
> 
> Steve from NYC


Wow exactly!! It's every NYC new electricians dream to get into the Ibew apprenticeship program... Wet dream... Lol


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> Yes it's difficult to get into our program. With good reason.
> 
> Steve from NYC


Makes sense. The fewer men you need to compete for work with the more money those few can make.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> Here in NYC the difference between being union and non union boils down to pay and safety concerns a union trades men will earn a livable wage where his nonunion counterpart will earn significantly less and is usually less well trained


What you are saying is broad based truth. We in Local 3 have an M Division that makes roughly the same as a non union contractor pays his men. Hell, some non union contractors like my friend pay more than we pay our M guys. Don't compare a non union electrician with no schooling to an A Journeyman who spent 5yrs going to classes, twice a week, as well as taking college courses. There's a big difference. Even among non union contractors there is a whole spectrum of pay rates. 

We have organized contractors who were astounded that First Year Apprentices and Helpers made $11/hr, they were paying their kids $15/hr! On the other end, there have been contractors who had been paying their First Year Helpers $9/hr.

As with everything else, what the individual does with the training we give him is what matters. There have been guys I've had in my classes who've become General Foremen and one or two that are now volunteer instructors at the Hall. On the other hand, I have also seen guys turn out that frankly shouldn't have. We can only do so much. Remember, we have 15000 A Journeyman in Local 3, and a total number of electricians from other divisions totaling over 30000. That's a lot of people to train, to try to get involved, etc. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Makes sense. The fewer men you need to compete for work with the more money those few can make.


Exactly Fras...the goal is to continue the Program, satisfy the contractors needs for cheap labor but ULTIMATELY our job is to keep our Journeymen working. In Local 3, Apprentices and Helpers are guaranteed work for the entire time they are in those Classifications.

Not all locals do this.

We also allow our M Division Helpers to be used on A Construction projects. This gives them a much more rounded learning experience. When they turn out and are M Journeymen, working for smaller shops, doing jobbing or other work...they have the experience to draw upon that they've seen big pipe, different materials, etc.

Yes, in NYC it is the "wet dream" of most non union electricians to get into Local 3. We take very good care of our members, we have an exemplary educational program that is available to everyone. We have a course catalog to rival some small community colleges. Everything from AutoCAD, to Project Management (PMP Training), to CISCO Engineering, to Citizenship, to Conduit Bending 1 & 2...etc...not to mention the Code Curriculum which I helped create. This is offered to anyone and everyone once they become Journeymen. We have a Code Seminar, Basic NYC Electrical Code Class, Advanced Electrical Code Class, Grounding and Bonding Class and more recently we added High Rise Residential Wiring to the catalog. 

Where else can you further your education and become a better craftsman? More and more locals around the country are doing this as well. The more their memberships are showing interest in these courses...they're slowly appearing. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## Itsonlywes (Sep 23, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Exactly Fras...the goal is to continue the Program, satisfy the contractors needs for cheap labor but ULTIMATELY our job is to keep our Journeymen working. In Local 3, Apprentices and Helpers are guaranteed work for the entire time they are in those Classifications.
> 
> Not all locals do this.
> 
> ...


That's what I like most about the union... the education forget about the starting pay the education program nor than makes up for it. If u go to a trade school or even city tech for Electrical engineering u are going to pay a lot of money


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

The thing that surprises me the most is, in my area the non union wages are the same as they were 12 years ago.

For ****s & giggles I checked out my old tech school the other day. The tuition has pretty much doubled but that is to be expected. What I really found to be amazing is, the kids graduating and getting hired through the job placement program are getting hired at the exact same rate as they were in 2000-2001.
$9 per hour. That's a disgrace.

We dominate the market share here but as a comparison the non union contractors in the immediate surrounding area's are less the half our rate on average.

I stay in touch with my former foreman from when I was open shop, they took a pay cut in 2009 and haven't had a raise since.

We negotiated a raise in our last contract. Work is slowly picking up and our market share is strong. We might not get back to full employment but the future looks good for us.

I like to see us get back to the position where more guys like myself get a chance at the opportunity my local provides.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> The thing that surprises me the most is, in my area the non union wages are the same as they were 12 years ago.
> 
> For ****s & giggles I checked out my old tech school the other day. The tuition has pretty much doubled but that is to be expected. What I really found to be amazing is, the kids graduating and getting hired through the job placement program are getting hired at the exact same rate as they were in 2000-2001.
> $9 per hour. That's a disgrace.
> ...


You know...the whole raise thing happens when the market can afford it. It took a LONG ASS TIME for Local 3 to raise the Apprentice scale. The contractors fought it like you were trying to get their baptism money out of them. They make a lot of money on Apprentices vs less and less on our rate. It used to be that the contractor could make some profit on a journeyman's hourly rate...but that's pretty much over. I mean...here in NYC our total package over $100/hr with the beni's...no GC is going to let them pad the numbers like they did in the 80's any longer. And if you do public works...forget it! Profit is figured into everything. You wouldn't believe what I have to justify in my monthlies!

Steve from NYC


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Itsonlywes said:


> That's what I like most about the union... the education forget about the starting pay the education program nor than makes up for it. If u go to a trade school or even city tech for Electrical engineering u are going to pay a lot of money


Very true Wes...very true. When the kids graduate...they not only get an A Card here in Local 3...but they also get an Associates in Labor Management. You also get the opportunity to continue on to get your BA in Labor Management which I did. 

I would honestly say...do everything you can to get in Wes...it'd be the best thing you can do!

Steve from NYC


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

My prediction is we won't have this discussion in the not too distant future. How long before these robots can drill holes and pull wire, bend conduit, install it, etc. ?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> My prediction is we won't have this discussion in the not too distant future. How long before these robots can drill holes and pull wire, bend conduit, install it, etc. ?


Physically capable? Not to long but it still is a long way off before robots can think. 

They are great at doing programmable, predictable, repetitive tasks, not good at all to adapting to changing conditions.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Physically capable? Not to long but it still is a long way off before robots can think.
> 
> They are great at doing programmable, predictable, repetitive tasks, not good at all to adapting to changing conditions.


I think you are exactly correct except for the "long way off" part. I think we are less than 5 years away from an acceptable level of (for lack of a better word) "critical thinking" by robots.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I think you are exactly correct except for the "long way off" part. I think we are less than 5 years away from an acceptable level of (for lack of a better word) "critical thinking" by robots.


Honestly I doubt it consider an average construction project and all the variables that go along with it, but we don't really know. 

We are reaching the end of Moores law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law until we find something other than silicone based computers.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNeIVZzEqys

The above link is an example of work on robots thinking.

Think about it, my father was born before Wyatt Earp died. The wild west was not that long ago. The technological progress humans have made since I was a child is just astonishing. The advances coming down the pike are even more amazing.

For those just getting into the workforce, a career in robotics would seem like a very good choice of field of study. Somebody is going to have to fix the robots (until we train the robots to fix themselves, then ...... (use your imagination).


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNeIVZzEqys
> 
> The above link is an example of work on robots thinking.


Thanks for the link





> Think about it, my father was born before Wyatt Earp died. The wild west was not that long ago. The technological progress humans have made since I was a child is just astonishing. The advances coming down the pike are even more amazing.



I agree and I think of this all the time when people say something can't be done. 

But actual thinking in my opinion is still a long way off. Just way to many variables that pop up in life all the time.


> For those just getting into the workforce, a career in robotics would seem like a very good choice of field of study.


That is a fact that has been true for a long time now. (IMO)



> Somebody is going to have to fix the robots (until we train the robots to fix themselves, then ...... (use your imagination).


Some peoples imagination always sees negatives, others see positives, somewhere in the middle is usually the end result.

As long as 'we' remain in control of said robots whose to say it would not work as well as the slaves throughout history. The past was almost all built by slave, not something to be proud of but a fact none the less.

Hopefully the slaves of the future will be machines and not us. :blink:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


Less people signing up.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?





erics37 said:


> Less people signing up.


And the Noble prize goes to erics37:laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

erics37 said:


> Less people signing up.


Yes and no.


----------



## AaronJohnTurner (Nov 16, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


At the local in my area at least, not hiring starters and only granting memberships to indentured 1st year apprentices. Meaning either you take their 12-week pre-app program that only takes 36 students a year in a metro area of well over 1,000,000 people, or you have to go non-union first.

I went to one of their open houses a couple years back and they told me without being indentured there was nothing they could do for me.


----------



## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

OR WORK CUSW
Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.



AaronJohnTurner said:


> At the local in my area at least, not hiring starters and only granting memberships to indentured 1st year apprentices. Meaning either you take their 12-week pre-app program that only takes 36 students a year in a metro area of well over 1,000,000 people, or you have to go non-union first.
> 
> I went to one of their open houses a couple years back and they told me without being indentured there was nothing they could do for me.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I think (and once again I could be wrong) many locals are not recruiting new members and not bring in new apprentices as there is little work for these new members. But when the economy turns around the long period of bad economy coupled with fewer members may give the open shops a real edge on the IBEW, furthering the decline?


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> I think (and once again I could be wrong) many locals are not recruiting new members and not bring in new apprentices as there is little work for these new members. But when the economy turns around the long period of bad economy coupled with fewer members may give the open shops a real edge on the IBEW, furthering the decline?


I think you just quoted the Republican platform.:laughing:


----------



## Jbird66 (Oct 26, 2010)

brian john said:


> I think (and once again I could be wrong) many locals are not recruiting new members and not bring in new apprentices as there is little work for these new members. But when the economy turns around the long period of bad economy coupled with fewer members may give the open shops a real edge on the IBEW, furthering the decline?


So what will happen if you are not bringing in new apprentices? Early it was stated that the contractors make a good profit off apprentices. Will that possibly hurt the contractors ability to land jobs in the future?


----------



## AaronJohnTurner (Nov 16, 2009)

greenman said:


> OR WORK CUSW
> Since 1999, CUSW has been challenging the idea of what a union can be.


Thanks for the link Greenman. I'm getting out of the army in a year and getting back into starting up an apprenticeship, I can use all the resources I can. :thumbsup:

However, it appears it's based in Ontario and I see no Alberta committee on the website. Pretty cool still.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jbird66 said:


> So what will happen if you are not bringing in new apprentices? Early it was stated that the contractors make a good profit off apprentices. Will that possibly hurt the contractors ability to land jobs in the future?


So the economy turns around, work is abundant, union contractors are having to bid jobs with all JW's all old JW's against open shop firms that have apprentices and young workers.

Who knows I think the union has to operate like there is a future.

Our local took in an additional 200 apprentices this year above the normal number normally taken in. (I am told)


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Jbird66 said:


> So what will happen if you are not bringing in new apprentices? Early it was stated that the contractors make a good profit off apprentices. Will that possibly hurt the contractors ability to land jobs in the future?


There has to be a balance between over burdening your infrastructure ( health and welfare insurances, training costs ) with non productive labor vs some unknown future.

Too many apprentices in bad times is very bad. Those apprentices don't work enough to qualify for moving up and they leave due to the lack of work. Those that stay and top out, end up unemployed journeymen.

One of the assets of the IBEW is the ability to draw on a national labor pool - so when times are good you can pull in journeymen from around the country. That removes the impetus to train a lot of journeymen in bad times. Additionally, since every apprentice program turns away many many applicants, when times improve any given program can start a new class.

Bad times are when you shrink your inventory a bit.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> So the economy turns around, work is abundant, union contractors are having to bid jobs with all JW's all old JW's against open shop firms that have apprentices and young workers.
> 
> Who knows I think the union has to operate like there is a future.
> 
> Our local took in an additional 200 apprentices this year above the normal number normally taken in. (I am told)


Brian, why would they stop taking in apprentices, they need the union dues ?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> So the economy turns around, work is abundant, union contractors are having to bid jobs with all JW's all old JW's against open shop firms that have apprentices and young workers.


Non union shops have to hold onto their workers through bad times, so if anyone has an older workforce it would be those shops that held their workforce. Most union shops just lay off workers they don't need and put in calls when they do need them.

Union shops have pretty much unlimited labor resources ( and set ratios ) so they really don't concern themselves with the mix of manpower.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> What has caused a decline in union membership?


why would _some_ of us wish to decrease our pay .....?

~S~


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Union shops have pretty much unlimited labor resources ( and set ratios ) so they really don't concern themselves with the mix of manpower.


:laughing:

Yeah, life is beautiful all the time in union land. :laughing:


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, life is beautiful all the time in union land. :laughing:


...union and non union both have there problems. Right now its work.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ...union and non union both have there problems. Right now its work.


But there is a future, you can be ready for it or not.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ...union and non union both have there problems. Right now its work.


:thumbsup:


----------



## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

http://www.valard.com/
We help out with labour for other companies that are short on man power.
good luck. We are trying to branch out to other Provences, There is a shortage of linemen?


AaronJohnTurner said:


> Thanks for the link Greenman. I'm getting out of the army in a year and getting back into starting up an apprenticeship, I can use all the resources I can. :thumbsup:
> 
> However, it appears it's based in Ontario and I see no Alberta committee on the website. Pretty cool still.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, life is beautiful all the time in union land. :laughing:


I'm glad you agree...:laughing:

If you are a contractor, you can get as many workers as you want, when and where you want them, and when you are done with them you can lay them off. The union certifies their training, handles all the benefits, has mechanisms in place to resolve issues and disputes, rules and guidelines for behavior and expectations of the workforce. In my local, the union drug tests, both annually and randomly as well. 

Yes, union labor tends to be expensive, but almost all the work involved in hr is passed off to the local union. In addition, with the number of folks who come on this forum and mention they make more than union scale, union labor might even be a bargain.

Highly trained instant workforce with predictable costs.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I'm glad you agree...:laughing:
> 
> If you are a contractor, you can get as many workers as you want, when and where you want them, and when you are done with them you can lay them off. The union certifies their training, handles all the benefits, has mechanisms in place to resolve issues and disputes, rules and guidelines for behavior and expectations of the workforce. In my local, the union drug tests, both annually and randomly as well.
> 
> ...



Here during the last dot com boom, the hall struggled to supply men, there were travelers, but a lot of the help was organized in and the hall then as now was taking in large number of new apprentices. For this location that has worked to grow our local.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

eejack said:


> I'm glad you agree...:laughing:
> 
> If you are a contractor, you can get as many workers as you want, when and where you want them, and when you are done with them you can lay them off. The union certifies their training, handles all the benefits, has mechanisms in place to resolve issues and disputes, rules and guidelines for behavior and expectations of the workforce. In my local, the union drug tests, both annually and randomly as well.
> 
> ...


Predictable cost? That's the whole reason the union is getting the push out of the oilsands. I was up at CNRL Horizon project for an invited contractor meet and greet with all the divisions up there(2.5 billion spending limit this year and for the next five minimum) to help open shops bid on the upcoming work because of union cost overruns.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

C'mon eejack I'm waiting.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> C'mon eejack I'm waiting.


waiting for what?


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Jbird66 said:


> So what will happen if you are not bringing in new apprentices? Early it was stated that the contractors make a good profit off apprentices. Will that possibly hurt the contractors ability to land jobs in the future?


Nope. It's not like there is going to be a call tomarrow for 2,000 JW's. Work will ramp up slowly, and there will be plenty of time to screen and admit more to school.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> Predictable cost? That's the whole reason the union is getting the push out of the oilsands. I was up at CNRL Horizon project for an invited contractor meet and greet with all the divisions up there(2.5 billion spending limit this year and for the next five minimum) to help open shops bid on the upcoming work because of union cost overruns.


You know what? We don't bid them, we build them. Cost over runs are basically contractor driven, supply driven, and errors in drawings/scope of work.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

A reply, you seem to be a well written fellow. You also are very loyal to the union. I kind of thought you would have some thoughts on why this is happening in Alberta. 5 years ago ibew had a monopoly in fort mac. Now it is declining by the day. I employ a few union members who are valuable to my team even though I am open shop. If al, members were like them there would be no issues but I've turned away hundreds to find the few gems.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> I kind of thought you would have some thoughts on why this is happening in Alberta.


Not a clue actually.:no:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> I kind of thought you would have some thoughts on why this is happening in Alberta.


That is a good question. Honestly I don't think anyone knows. Maybe it is a Canadian thing.

I cannot imagine oil sands work on the tundra can be any less fun than refinery work or oil field work. Perhaps if you folks let us cross the border we could fill your crews up with our very experienced texas union brothers. I know they are all hurting bad for work and I wager your rate is high enough to make it worth their while.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> I know they are all hurting bad for work and I wager your rate is high enough to make it worth their while.


Who wants to be paid in donuts and beer,eh?:laughing:


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

eejack said:


> That is a good question. Honestly I don't think anyone knows. Maybe it is a Canadian thing.
> 
> I cannot imagine oil sands work on the tundra can be any less fun than refinery work or oil field work. Perhaps if you folks let us cross the border we could fill your crews up with our very experienced texas union brothers. I know they are all hurting bad for work and I wager your rate is high enough to make it worth their while.


Just so happens I am working on that very thing. However the ibew is trying to block it. They feel foreign workers, yes they consider USA as such, will somehow bring the wage down or "steal" work. The only way we here in Alberta can continue the growth at current pace is with the help and cooperation of our fellow North Americans. I will be attending a function on the 30th with some very influential members of parliament to help convince them to lighten the restrictions on Americans working in Canada. Also to break the Merf fund.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Who wants to be paid in donuts and beer,eh?:laughing:


I pay my J-men 37 per hour. With our dollar at more than par buy your own doughnuts.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> I pay my J-men 37 per hour. With our dollar at more than par buy your own doughnuts.


No offense. I won't freeze my arse off for a reduction in pay.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> Just so happens I am working on that very thing. However the ibew is trying to block it. They feel foreign workers, yes they consider USA as such, will somehow bring the wage down or "steal" work.


 I dunno.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

big2bird said:


> No offense. I won't freeze my arse off for a reduction in pay.


You do realize us non union folk count wage as before all benefit and holiday pay?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> I pay my J-men 37 per hour. With our dollar at more than par buy your own doughnuts.


That is better than texas rates - throw in some affordable cold weather gear and I beat you fill your crews quick.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

eejack said:


> That is better than texas rates - throw in some affordable cold weather gear and I beat you fill your crews quick.


We are 400 strong right now, and will have to turn down bidding 10m plus jobs for pure fact we don't have the capable leaders to handle the onsite production. Cold weather gear is of no issue. If we could get 20 solid industrial foreman the moon is the limit.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> You do realize us non union folk count wage as before all benefit and holiday pay?


Yep. What's holiday pay?:laughing:


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Yep. What's holiday pay?:laughing:


You ****ting me? 10% on each hour


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> You ****ting me? 10% on each hour


Psst. I have never recieved holiday pay, nor paid vacations. I make wages plus H&W. No workie, no $$.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> We are 400 strong right now, and will have to turn down bidding 10m plus jobs for pure fact we don't have the capable leaders to handle the onsite production. Cold weather gear is of no issue. If we could get 20 solid industrial foreman the moon is the limit.


Heck - I know 20 solid industrial foremen who were sitting in the day room with me this morning. The only issue is they are IBEW and in the US. We have very high unemployment in the US right now...


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Heck - I know 20 solid industrial foremen who were sitting in the day room with me this morning. The only issue is they are IBEW and in the US. We have very high unemployment in the US right now...


No doubt. It's a crime these jobs are unfilled.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

Eejack literally we WILL be turning down 60m easy due to not being able to bid due to not being able to man the work. On one major site only.... If some of you we're able to come up north..... But you must realize non union is going to staff these projects. Not meaning pay will be less at all just the managerial structure being more , umm receptive is key.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> Eejack literally we WILL be turning down 60m easy due to not being able to bid due to not being able to man the work. On one major site only.... If some of you we're able to come up north..... But you must realize non union is going to staff these projects. Not meaning pay will be less at all just the managerial structure being more , umm receptive is key.


Honestly I don't know. We are not allowed to work non union and if we would be interfering with the IBEW in that area, I don't know anyone who would do it regardless of what the rules might be.

On the other hand - it is a different country - I don't know what the rules are. It might be perfectly acceptable.

It is an interesting question - just for giggles I am going to make some phone calls and find out next week.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Honestly I don't know. We are not allowed to work non union and if we would be interfering with the IBEW in that area, I don't know anyone who would do it regardless of what the rules might be.
> 
> On the other hand - it is a different country - I don't know what the rules are. It might be perfectly acceptable.
> 
> It is an interesting question - just for giggles I am going to make some phone calls and find out next week.


I am quite sure that would endanger our pension, therefore taboo.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

Let me know what you come up with. My IBEW members are quite happy working for me. We even have a PM in our Calgary branch Whois a due paying member, came from San Fran. First large bids come in jan.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

This is funny. In the union forum, debating holiday pay and donuts with one of Canada's biggest non union contractors... 

It doesn't get much better than this on a Saturday night!

LOL


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Albertaelectric said:


> Let me know what you come up with. My IBEW members are quite happy working for me. We even have a PM in our Calgary branch Whois a due paying member, came from San Fran. First large bids come in jan.


How is he paying dues and working for you? He would have to take a withdrawal card. Which I've done before when I had my own shop. Hmmm if that's the case...what do you pay your General Foremen? LOL


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> I am quite sure that would endanger our pension, therefore taboo.


On the other hand, if they sign the book in order to solve their lack of labor issues...

I realize it is just yakking on the internet, but I have heard this story many times recently. Lack of skilled specialized labor over there, lack of work for the same skilled specialized labor over here. The *International *Brotherhood of Electrical Workers ought to be able to solve that problem.

Unless there is a lot more to the problem - or part of the problem is these companies are trying to kill the locals in their area, I cannot see it as nothing more than a paperwork issue.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> How is he paying dues and working for you? He would have to take a withdrawal card. Which I've done before when I had my own shop. Hmmm if that's the case...what do you pay your General Foremen? LOL


41$ x 1.1 x 1.1 you know 10% holiday pay plus 10% foreman rate. And if you can make us money after second profitable job we negotiate your bonus.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> How is he paying dues and working for you? He would have to take a withdrawal card. Which I've done before when I had my own shop. Hmmm if that's the case...what do you pay your General Foremen? LOL


You first. I hate cold.:laughing:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> This is funny. In the union forum, debating holiday pay and donuts with one of Canada's biggest non union contractors...
> 
> It doesn't get much better than this on a Saturday night!
> 
> LOL


Yes, but in honor of our Canadian guest we are well mannered.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

big2bird said:


> You first. I hate cold.:laughing:


We don't like it either, any Canadian that tells you anything different s lying.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> 41$ x 1.1 x 1.1 you know 10% holiday pay plus 10% foreman rate. And if you can make us money after second profitable job we negotiate your bonus.


Hmm. I wonder what that would be in US dinero? I do miss my bonuses, company truck and gas card.:whistling2:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> 41$ x 1.1 x 1.1 you know 10% holiday pay plus 10% foreman rate. And if you can make us money after second profitable job we negotiate your bonus.


Now see, that is perhaps part of the problem. That works out less than my current journeyman rate. That rate will tempt some guys, but not folks in this time zone. 

Still, that still keeps a lot of manpower available.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> We don't like it either, any Canadian that tells you anything different s lying.


I appreciate that. My old roomie was Canadian. The GF at work tonight was Canadian. :thumbup:


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

What is your rate? Minus perks.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Now see, that is perhaps part of the problem. That works out less than my current journeyman rate. That rate will tempt some guys, but not folks in this time zone.
> 
> Still, that still keeps a lot of manpower available.


I was being nice too. It is still a cut in pay for me also.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> What is your rate? Minus perks.


Journeyman rate is $47.21 here ( New Jersey )


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Albertaelectric said:


> What is your rate? Minus perks.


http://ibewoc.com/wages.html


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

So, the industrial jm rate is less. Fm rate is less. What you call a GF is a negotiated position in my company. You could make more on all three levels plus we do 3% contribution match to rrsp.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Albertaelectric said:


> What is your rate? Minus perks.


The Journeyman rate, minus benefits here in NYC $51/hr. With benefits anywhere from $97-$103 depending on who you speak to. The basic foreman gets a minimum of $3.75/hr over, but no one will run fork for less than $5.

A General Foreman can be anything but usually starts at $10 when I was running work I was making $15...but that's running crews of 60-80 men.


----------



## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

Wow, how the Christ do you make money on a job? Anything after 8 industrial will be time+1/2 after ten 2x but we don't count that as reg pay. Good on you guys! It's way to competitive in our cities to go with that. We are high paying by 2$ in Edmonton. In another year things could be different, however we have zero layoffs.


----------



## black (Oct 12, 2011)

Just over 50% of my local's APPRENTICES are out of work right now, for crying out loud. That's pretty bad. No wonder membership numbers are declining.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I'm glad you agree...:laughing:
> 
> If you are a contractor, you can get as many workers as you want, when and where you want them, and when you are done with them you can lay them off. The union certifies their training, handles all the benefits, has mechanisms in place to resolve issues and disputes, rules and guidelines for behavior and expectations of the workforce. In my local, the union drug tests, both annually and randomly as well.
> 
> ...


Mr rose colored glasses.:jester:

I have read enough posts to from union members to know what you say is not always the reality. Is it sometimes? Sure, of course i am sure it happens and sometimes things go right outside the union walls as well. 

But keep going, you are reaching Cletis levels of hilarity.:laughing:


----------



## AaronJohnTurner (Nov 16, 2009)

Albertaelectric said:


> We are 400 strong right now, and will have to turn down bidding 10m plus jobs for pure fact we don't have the capable leaders to handle the onsite production. Cold weather gear is of no issue. If we could get 20 solid industrial foreman the moon is the limit.


There's an open shop in AB with 400 members?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Mr rose colored glasses.:jester:
> 
> .


maybe they need a biz plan

divide all the U-rates, bennies, annuities , etc into 1000hrs, and market themselves @ that T&M rate competitively.....:whistling2:~CS~


----------

