# "live" work; How often??



## NewberElec

I will be starting an electrical apprenticeship here in the next week but have concerns about working with live wiring or live panels. Are those normal concerns to have? I've heard of guys doing "hot" work but is it standard to work "live" in residential or commercial?? or do you shut the power off? :001_huh:


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## MDShunk

Working live, in large part, is plainly illegal. You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live. There are instances where you must, but the safety requirements are great, and you will receive special training. You'll still find guys who feel some overwhelming need to display their bravado and work live for no good reason. Those guys are idiots.


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## B4T

Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

Right now don't worry about working with live wires or panels, it won't happen.


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## MDShunk

Black4Truck said:


> Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:
> 
> Right now don't worry about working with live wires or panels, it won't happen.


Yeah, the only thing "live" an apprentice is likely to work with is the extension cord you'll plug your tools into. :thumbsup:


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## randas

Even if you want to, you wont be allowed to as an apprentice. Most places.


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## EBFD6

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, the only thing "live" an apprentice is likely to work with is the extension cord you'll plug your tools into. :thumbsup:


That's weird, I've never seen a shovel that plugs in!


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## NewberElec

EBFD6 said:


> That's weird, I've never seen a shovel that plugs in!


 
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/191-7106026-9021766?asin=B0002ST948&AFID=Nextag_df&LNM=|B0002ST948&CPNG=patio%20garden&ref=tgt_adv_XSN10001

I have......:laughing: j/k

It does snow alot up here ........


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## Toronto Sparky

To work live you are supposed to be wearing one of those marshmallow suits.
Don't know what the real name is.. What I do know is working while wearing one a very hard.. 
Much easier to shut it off..


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## Zog

NewberElec said:


> I will be starting an electrical apprenticeship here in the next week but have concerns about working with live wiring or live panels. Are those normal concerns to have? I've heard of guys doing "hot" work but is it standard to work "live" in residential or commercial?? or do you shut the power off? :001_huh:


Mark said it perfect



MDShunk said:


> Working live, in large part, is plainly illegal. You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live. There are instances where you must, but the safety requirements are great, and you will receive special training. You'll still find guys who feel some overwhelming need to display their bravado and work live for no good reason. Those guys are idiots.


But, things don't always work like that and some guys still do live work, they think all this safety stuff is for sissys. 

Now being in Canada you fall under CSA Z462, which is fairly new, it mirros our NFPA 70E which has been around since 1979 and really been enforced and a big deal since 2000, so it has taken awhile to teach the old dogs new tricks, so I imagine the culture change of not working live will take awhile in Canada too. I suggest that you learn everything you can about the Z462 rules and enforcement of it so you understand what the right thing to do is, and how to keep yourself safe.

Here is a good place to start http://www.arcflashforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9


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## busymnky

Your concern is normal. Standard practice is to de-energize circuitry before working on it. Never do something you aren't comfortable doing just because you were told to. After you've "grown up" as an electrician you can choose to take risks with live power, or choose not to take them.
Whatever you decide to do- someone will call you a macho idiot, or a wimp sissy. Just be sure you go home every day having done your best and don't worry about the words of those who weren't there.


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## forqnc

Could someone define 'Live work'.
I am an Industrial technician and many times for troubleshooting I Have a machine turned on, how can I check for a bad heater band without using an ampmeter. Tracing down a contact not pulled in for a circuit, how could I check for voltage?
Now do I disconnect/connect wires up Live? NO. Swap out bad parts live? NO.

So what is a good definition for 'Live Work'?


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## Zog

forqnc said:


> Could someone define 'Live work'.
> I am an Industrial technician and many times for troubleshooting I Have a machine turned on, how can I check for a bad heater band without using an ampmeter. Tracing down a contact not pulled in for a circuit, how could I check for voltage?
> Now do I disconnect/connect wires up Live? NO. Swap out bad parts live? NO.
> 
> So what is a good definition for 'Live Work'?


Anything done inside the Limited Aproach Boundary


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## Frasbee

Yeah, working hot is dumb.

I've had an instance where the hot side of the 277 lights I was working on came in contact with the neutral.

*BOOM!

*And another time I was trying to move some hot wires out of my way to get to the dead wires while doing some demo work, and my needle nose cut in just enough that when they touched the edge of the box, they grounded out and, well...

*BOOM!*

No worries though, they were Craftsman, I got a new pair free the next day.

Oh, and another time I was adjusting a receptacle, and little did I know, someone had turned on the power while I was working on it. I had grabbed the receptacle on the hot and neutral side and completed the circuit and felt the tingling work it's way up my hand.

I was _really_ new to electrical at that time.


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## drsparky

Frasbee said:


> Yeah, working hot is dumb.
> 
> I've had an instance where the hot side of the 277 lights I was working on came in contact with the neutral.
> 
> *BOOM!
> 
> *And another time I was trying to move some hot wires out of my way to get to the dead wires while doing some demo work, and my needle nose cut in just enough that when they touched the edge of the box, they grounded out and, well...
> 
> *BOOM!*
> 
> No worries though, they were Craftsman, I got a new pair free the next day.
> 
> Oh, and another time I was adjusting a receptacle, and little did I know, someone had turned on the power while I was working on it. I had grabbed the receptacle on the hot and neutral side and completed the circuit and felt the tingling work it's way up my hand.
> 
> I was _really_ new to electrical at that time.


You haven't learned your lesson yet? LOTO?


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## Frasbee

drsparky said:


> You haven't learned your lesson yet? LOTO?


Well I learned a lesson every time.

The first was not to grab a receptacle by the screws, regardless.

The second was to cap off the wires while you're working with them hot.

The third was to use needle nose pliers with less pronounced teeth, or simply wrap them with tape. 


:thumbup:


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## drsparky

Frasbee said:


> Well I learned a lesson every time.
> 
> The first was not to grab a receptacle by the screws, regardless.
> 
> The second was to cap off the wires while you're working with them hot.
> 
> The third was to use needle nose pliers with less pronounced teeth, or simply wrap them with tape.
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


You still don't get it. I wish you luck.:blink:


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## Frasbee

drsparky said:


> You still don't get it. I wish you luck.:blink:


:bangin:


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## RePhase277

Frasbee said:


> Oh, and another time I was adjusting a receptacle, and little did I know, someone had turned on the power while I was working on it. I had grabbed the receptacle on the hot and neutral side and completed the circuit and felt the tingling work it's way up my hand.
> 
> I was _really_ new to electrical at that time.


Use your skinny cabinet flathead screwdriver or swivel flat in the ground hole to adjust a receptacle.


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## captkirk

I dont think its bravado. How do you guys do service changes...? Especially some of you NJ electricians specifically ones that have to deal with PSEG...? scheduling one while working with PSEG and the customer must be a nightmare especially for all you one man shop guys.


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## RePhase277

captkirk said:


> I dont think its bravado. How do you guys do service changes...? Especially some of you NJ electricians specifically ones that have to deal with PSEG...? scheduling one while working with PSEG and the customer must be a nightmare especially for all you one man shop guys.


I've learned on these forums that any live work is the same as being in Al Qaeda. I don't even change a light bulb without:



Closing off a five block radius
Posting a bomb squad outside
Having a disaster recovery team posted nearby
Suiting up in full PPE
Sending in the bulb changing robot
Shutting down the grid on the entire East Coast
Locking the door of the remote fallout shelter where I'm stationed
Lowering my arc flash helmet as I engage the remote control
An eight step, multi-million dollar project for a single ceiling fan bulb means you have to be an incredible salesman. Doing it any other way means you are "macho", or stupid, or both.


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## Mr. Sparkle

I used to do it all the time when I was younger, dumber, and did not know any better, those days are long gone.


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## captkirk

Im really not trying to be a macho man but since I was a helper, apprentice, mechanic I feel more than adequetly trained in cutting in an overhead service to a home. Now when you get into 277 and up thats a little bit of a different story.


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## captkirk

I guess all the poco guys are macho men for working live......:blink:


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## MDShunk

captkirk said:


> I guess all the poco guys are macho men for working live......:blink:


Has nothing to do with machismo. It's more like they're properly trained and properly equipped.


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## B4T

I do underground services live all the time because dealing with the POCO is a joke. 

I line the inside of the meter pan with cardboard to remove the line side from the lugs and tape up the ends with plenty of scotch 33+

Most of the service risers are EMT, even though that was never the POCO code.

They are always rotted off at ground level 

Feeders are always short to make it into the new meter pan, so I butt splice and shrink wrap them inside the new 2" PVC riser


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## 220/221

> I've heard of guys doing "hot" work but is it standard to work "live" in residential or commercial?? or do you shut the power off?


Everyone, everywhere I have worked for the past 35 years works "live"

Then again, "live" is a very broad term. I don't feel the need to shut off a circuit to change a 120V switch or recep in a resi plastic box. I do feel the need to shut off the power if I feel there is a reasonable chance of an incident.

I am more careful than I used to be. I will no longer bolt a big switch onto a hot bus. I will still *carefully* screw a small 120/240 breaker onto a hot bus.

I will run pipe/cable and terminate circuits in a hot panel. I will not remove a stubborn breaker from an old hot panel. The chance of a phase to phase short in the busing or burned up breaker is too great.


These are decisions I am not afraid to make for myself. I use my experience as guidelines.




> You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live.


WAHT have you been smoking? :001_huh: Your whole career? As an electrician? Really?
I am pretty sure I was troubleshooting at the 3 month period of my career and that's really hard to do unless it's live.




> Standard practice is to de-energize circuitry before working on it.


Not in my career/lifetime/area. Standard practice is to use your best judgement, be extremely careful and error on the side of caution. Obviously you shut it down/off when it's practical. It makes the work much faster/easier.


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## g_core18

Don't worry about it too much. In my first year all i did was the occasional 120 switch or receptacle under supervision. During my second year that kind of stuff became pretty routine and my journeyman would ask if i felt comfortable terminating in a live 120V panel.


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## captkirk

MDShunk said:


> Has nothing to do with machismo. It's more like they're properly trained and properly equipped.


 I see them working on 220 with a pair of leather gloves all the time.


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## user4818

captkirk said:


> I see them working on 220 with a pair of leather gloves all the time.


They're probably working on 220 because there's too much voltage drop and they have to boost up the size of the transformer. 220 volts is definitely an indication of a problem.


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## captkirk

Peter D said:


> They're probably working on 220 because there's too much voltage drop and they have to boost up the size of the transformer. 220 volts is definitely an indication of a problem.


 cute...


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## lynx82

I've worked hot a fairly good amount, taking apart 277v lighting splices to remove a light or a switch etc. Terminating or removing wires in panels that can't be shut off, or just plain having to put your hands in a hot jb to pull an old wire out etc. From what i've seen it's pretty common. As for the giant marshmellow suits(especially the ones without ventillation in the mask) it is like drinking a 12 pack and trying to land wires on a breaker. It sucks, but it is in our best interest. I remember reading something from the 1890s in school a while back that something like 1 in 2or3 electricians died on the job before they retired. Of course the precursor to cpr after electricution was a finger in the butt to see if that would wake the person up in the same official manual lol.


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## captkirk

277....... sh it is getting turned off. No question about it. I wouldnt excpect anyone to work with that hot. Ive done it scores of times and its ZERO fun when you get hit from it. If for what ever reason they have too work hot they are wearing the right PPE.


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## lynx82

captkirk said:


> 277....... sh it is getting turned off. No question about it. I wouldnt excpect anyone to work with that hot. Ive done it scores of times and its ZERO fun when you get hit from it. If for what ever reason they have too work hot they are wearing the right PPE.


Yeah, i never got hit with 277 but came real close one time. I was in my second year and we were demoing the second floor on a big office building. They wanted to keep the lights up but knock all the office walls down so we were demoing all the switches so the guys could come in and knock the walls down. So the circuit is off(apparently not locked out just taped off) and I'm taking apart a switchleg. As I'm twisting the wirenut on the hotleg the damn lights come on. I flipped on this journeymen(he was a yoyo elevator guy that switched to electrical and was just given jw status). He was layed off shortly after. Another lesson learned that day, lock your own **** out with your own lock...period.


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## randomkiller

Black4Truck said:


> I do underground services live all the time because dealing with the POCO is a joke.
> 
> I line the inside of the meter pan with cardboard to remove the line side from the lugs and tape up the ends with plenty of scotch 33+
> 
> Most of the service risers are EMT, even though that was never the POCO code.
> 
> They are always rotted off at ground level
> 
> Feeders are always short to make it into the new meter pan, so I butt splice and shrink wrap them inside the new 2" PVC riser


 
So are you saying that you have splices inside an inacessable place? If you so that is really hack work.


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## Toronto Sparky

Getting shocked doesn't hurt..
It's all that molten metal shooting out at you..
You don't get payed to put your life on the line..
I've been in the trade for over 25 years, sure I have worked live many times.
Any blown up a few things over the years.
I just got lucky.
I have worked with a lot of guys that we're not so lucky.

Be safe out there..


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## Mike_586

captkirk said:


> 277....... sh it is getting turned off. No question about it. I wouldnt excpect anyone to work with that hot. Ive done it scores of times and its ZERO fun when you get hit from it. If for what ever reason they have too work hot they are wearing the right PPE.


Man I did my first lighting retrofit doing 347V (we use 347/600 for our commercial power) as a second year and all the ballasts were done live. Didn't like it, 347 always had me paying special attention to every single detail, PPE was optional and its the way everyone did things back then.

I've worked on a lot of 347/600 live over the years and in the beginning PPE wasn't even a consideration while I was an apprentice. Towards the end of it guys were starting to use rubber mats, arc shields, linesman gloves and insulated tools. Now its all a huge no no.

Personally I'd prefer something in between what I started out seeing and what we have now, I think it has gone a little too far. But given the choice to go back to being expected to work on all that stuff live again or live with the way things have changed, I'll take having the current laws any day.


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## Toronto Sparky

I worked in a mall in Toronto Area Jane/Finch , changing ballasts
Seems that there was an addition put in in the 80s and all the new lighting was at 347v.

The store I was working in fixtures were half 120v and other half were 347v. all controlled with a single switch running a contractor.

Good thing that switch was off as I found that 120v ballasts don't like to be connected to 347v.

They didn't blow up but they really hummed well and took the lamps out. 

Funny thing was , the only reason I turned off the switch is because I was using tenants aluminum latter (I was too lazy to get the wood one outta the truck)


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## Toronto Sparky

You learn something everyday 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv6pETO8kUg&feature=rec-HM-rn


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## user4818

Working at 277 or 480 volts live is bad enough. Working at 347 or 600 volts live is just plain insanity. 

I've been shocked by 277 only once and that was bad....I can only imagine what 347 is like. 480 or 600? I don't ever want to find out. :no:


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## user5941

120V can kill you just as dead as 600V,anyone who works hot circuits when they can be shut off is just plain stupid.


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## te12co2w

Black4Truck said:


> I do underground services live all the time because dealing with the POCO is a joke.
> 
> 
> Feeders are always short to make it into the new meter pan, so I butt splice and shrink wrap them inside the new 2" PVC riser


 200amp? I can't imagine all that in a 2" anything.


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## te12co2w

I admit it, I still do it with the lower voltages. Just yesterday in fact.


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## randas

te12co2w said:


> 200amp? I can't imagine all that in a 2" anything.


Never done it but I'd say stagger the splices


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## mattsilkwood

I've done it in the past, continue to now and probably will in the future. It's just a fact of life doing what we do. Do you guys honestly kill power every time you add a circuit, change a ballast, pipe out of a panel or things such as this?

And if you do, do you still have these customers?

Most of the time power can be shut off with out many problems but for the times when its not feasable thats what makes us electricians, having the knowledge and training to do it safely.


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## NewBack

rewire said:


> 120V can kill you just as dead as 600V,anyone who works hot circuits when they can be shut off is just plain stupid.


You're right, 120v could kill you just as dead as 600v... ...the same exact way that a stick of dynamite could kill you as dead as a 20 megaton nuke.

But if you want to speak more realistically, high voltage has a greater propensity to kill a person or do bodily harm, such as internal burning to the point of amputation, external third degree burns, splashed molten metal, etc. etc. etc.


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## Zog

NewBack said:


> You're right, 120v could kill you just as dead as 600v... ...the same exact way that a stick of dynamite could kill you as dead as a 20 megaton nuke.
> 
> But if you want to speak more realistically, high voltage has a greater propensity to kill a person or do bodily harm, such as internal burning to the point of amputation, external third degree burns, splashed molten metal, etc. etc. etc.


Actually it is the opposite, higher voltages cause a "skin effect", so the current tracks on the surface of the skin and will not penatrate the skin and cause burning of the nervous systems and blood vessels. (Same reason hollow tubes are used for HV outdoor substations, no need for the center to exist)

Lower voltages puncture the skin and cause current to flow thorugh the circulatory and nervous systems causing internal burns and nerve damages. 

Of course voltage is only 1 of 8 factors that determine the severity of an elcetric shock, but discounting all other factors, lower voltages are more dangerous than higher voltages simply due to the skin effect.


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## NewBack

Zog said:


> Actually it is the opposite, higher voltages cause a "skin effect", so the current tracks on the surface of the skin and will not penatrate the skin and cause burning of the nervous systems and blood vessels. (Same reason hollow tubes are used for HV outdoor substations, no need for the center to exist)
> 
> Lower voltages puncture the skin and cause current to flow thorugh the circulatory and nervous systems causing internal burns and nerve damages.
> 
> Of course voltage is only 1 of 8 factors that determine the severity of an elcetric shock, but discounting all other factors, lower voltages are more dangerous than higher voltages simply due to the skin effect.


Can you show me a man with blown out knees (as in GONE, no lower legs) from 120volts? How many amputations does 120volts cause?


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## captkirk

NewBack said:


> Can you show me a man with blown out knees (as in GONE, no lower legs) from 120volts? How many amputations does 120volts cause?


 Seriously......Skin effect....? now thats a bit of a stretch to keep me from doing my own service changes.


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## headrec

Personally I have worked live more then a handful of times and I'm only a 2nd year apprentice. I kind of enjoy the thrill. You definitely have to be careful and if you aren't comfortable don't do it plain and simple.


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## Zog

NewBack said:


> Can you show me a man with blown out knees (as in GONE, no lower legs) from 120volts? How many amputations does 120volts cause?


I never said anything about 120V, and if you read my post I was talking about voltages only. A "blow out" type injury results from the current entry and exist points. The current will depend on the difference in potential across the body and the resistance of the path, so obviously there is usually more current on higher voltage systems. 

LV internal burns are minor at first glance, but the internal damage done to the blood vessels causes a lack of oxygen to the cells and the tissue will begin to die after a few days and progress into a case where aputation is required to save the life of the victim.


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## Zog

captkirk said:


> Seriously......Skin effect....? now thats a bit of a stretch to keep me from doing my own service changes.


Not a strech, just basic electrical thoery. Skin effect starts to become evisent around 24kV.


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## NewBack

Zog said:


> I never said anything about 120V, and if you read my post I was talking about voltages only.


I was comparing 120V to 600V and you quoted me and replied:



Zog said:


> Actually it is the opposite


So don't tell me that I am wrong if you are talking about a completely different issue.


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## user5941

NewBack said:


> You're right, 120v could kill you just as dead as 600v... ...the same exact way that a stick of dynamite could kill you as dead as a 20 megaton nuke.
> 
> But if you want to speak more realistically, high voltage has a greater propensity to kill a person or do bodily harm, such as internal burning to the point of amputation, external third degree burns, splashed molten metal, etc. etc. etc.


 Talking reality more people are killed or injured by lower voltages because of the tendancy to take for granted the danger present.Look at those who casually talk about working live circuits.


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## Faultfinder1

Here we go with this same old stupid argument again, and my answer is the same - if you don't think that 120v will kill you then go ahead and get your affairs in order, write out your will, and keep on working it live/unprotected. NO - I am not going to waste my time explaining this to anyone that refuses to believe, nor will I research the hundreds of deaths each year of electricians that used to have that same attitude, you can (and should) do that on your own. 
It is an industry-wide, well known fact that Linemen fear 277/480 much more than they do 17k, 33k, or higher AC Voltages. Electricity is a nasty bi*ch and if we don't respect it too many of us will pay the price. Be safe, be well, and go home everyday. 


www.faultlocating.com


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## Zog

NewBack said:


> I was comparing 120V to 600V and you quoted me and replied:
> 
> 
> 
> So don't tell me that I am wrong if you are talking about a completely different issue.


No, you said 



NewBack said:


> But if you want to speak more realistically, high voltage has a greater propensity to kill a person or do bodily harm, such as internal burning to the point of amputation, external third degree burns, splashed molten metal, etc. etc. etc.


120 and 600 are both low votage, your statement is incorrect regarding high voltage and internal burning is incorrect and I was correcting it with the actual paths different voltages take through a human body. 

I spent 15 years researching and training on the effects of different variables in electric shocks, I have been called on as an expert witness in many cases and have been a technical advisor on 2 novels with forensics of electrical shocks as the storylines. In my experience very few people that work live have any understanding of what determines the severity of a shock injury. In fact, many experts dont underatand everything, DEI (Diffuse Electrical Injuries) is still something that is being researched.


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## NewBack

rewire said:


> Talking reality more people are killed or injured by lower voltages because of the tendancy to take for granted the danger present.Look at those who casually talk about working live circuits.


 You're right, more people are killed by 120V than higher voltages, but that doesn't make 120V more dangerous than the others. 

More people are killed by knives than nuclear bombs, what point are we trying to prove here?


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## NewBack

Zog said:


> 120 and 600 are both low votage,


 I disagree. I consider 600V to be high voltage as far as this discussion. On the job, we consider 277V to be high voltage. On the pole, things are different. The terms "high and low" voltage need to be qualified in the discussion. I believed it was pretty clear what I was talking about, you just wanted to argue. You KNOW that I was comparing 120V to 600V, you conveniently left it out when you were quoting me.



> your statement is incorrect regarding high voltage and internal burning is incorrect and I was correcting it with the actual paths different voltages take through a human body.


 No, my statement was *NOT* incorrect. 600V has a greater propensity for injury or death than 120V. You can argue all day, you will still be wrong.


> I spent 15 years researching and training on the effects of different variables in electric shocks, I have been called on as an expert witness in many cases and have been a technical advisor on 2 novels with forensics of electrical shocks as the storylines. In my experience very few people that work live have any understanding of what determines the severity of a shock injury. In fact, many experts dont underatand everything, DEI (Diffuse Electrical Injuries) is still something that is being researched.


 Honestly, I do not care. Keep your resume to yourself, it doesn't impress me. 

All you have done is pulled semantics games and twisted words around.

I stand by my original statement the 600V is more dangerous than 120V. Prove that fact wrong instead of dancing around it, if you can.


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## user5941

NewBack said:


> You're right, more people are killed by 120V than higher voltages, but that doesn't make 120V more dangerous than the others.
> 
> More people are killed by knives than nuclear bombs, what point are we trying to prove here?


 I never stated that 120V was more dangerous but that it had the same potential to kill,dead is dead it wont matter how you got their.


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## user4818

rewire said:


> I never stated that 120V was more dangerous but that it had the same potential to kill,dead is dead it wont matter how you got their.


I suppose to define our terms as to what "dangerous" really means. I forget the exact number, but I think anything over 50 volts has the potential to kill you. So really *almost all* voltage that electricians deal with on a regular basis is deadly. When I think of "danger" in this discussion, I consider the level of willingness by electricians to work on it live without any safety precautions. 

120 volts _is_ more dangerous because people take such a cavalier attitude about working on it live. Although there are plenty who will dive into a live 480 panel without a care in the world, so one is not any better than the other except that if something goes wrong in that 480 volt panel, you will likely be severely burned in the process. 

The high voltages (outside distribution) are not dangerous in the sense that regular electricians almost never work on them, and those who do (linemen) are equipped with safety gear and years of training. They know how to safely handle those voltages and are well equipped to do so.


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## Zog

NewBack said:


> I stand by my original statement the 600V is more dangerous than 120V. Prove that fact wrong instead of dancing around it, if you can.


The title of this attached chart (From OSHA) is "*Frequencies of Electrocution Incidents Identified by FACE by Low Voltage Level (<600 Volts), 1982-1994"*

Note the definition of low voltage as <600V, which is the same as the IEEE defined voltage classes. What "you think" voltage classes are defined as matters little to me, you think wrong. 

You asked to be proved wrong, there you go.


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## Zog

*Frequencies of Electrocution Incidents Identified by FACE by Low Voltage Level (<600 Volts), 1982-1994*

*Duplicate post, see previous reply*


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## Faultfinder1

The industry standard is anything 600v and less is considered low voltage, 601v on up is considered high voltage, until you reach the point of "very high voltage". Calling one particular voltage more "dangerous" than another is simply ignorant. 125k is more dangerous than 120v, but how many people, professional or otherwise, ever come into contact with it? A boy where I used to work was killed last year when he slipped into an excavation and contacted a 120v cable. Several years ago a friend of mine made direct contact with a 33k overhead line and lived with minor burns and a damaged Achilles. "Dangerous" is subjective. All voltage can kill - if I were to jam a 9v volt battery in to your chest hard enough the voltage would stop your heart. 

I think everyone here needs to start Googling for information about electrical injuries and fatalities and not come back here until they actually know something. And stop arguing about something you know little about. 


www.faultlocating.com


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## mattsilkwood

The only reason that more people are killed by 120v because more people come into contact with it. There's not a day goes by that nearly everyone doesn't come in contact with 120, wheras the majority of the population will never see anything above 240v.

I dont think there is much difference in the electrocution hazard, but with 480 theres the flash hazard.


----------



## Toronto Sparky

I also wonder about the comment that higher voltages flash and burn more as the lower voltages tend to be backed up with much higher fusing.
And it's the amperage that causes the metal to melt. 
Personally my two biggest flash outs were on 120/208 400a splitters. 
Once with a flipping around fish tape and once with a slip with a slot screw driver (even taped up)


----------



## sparks134

How is the best way to disconnect then reconnect an overhead service LIVE?


----------



## Raco

sparks134 said:


> How is the best way to disconnect then reconnect an overhead service LIVE?


Call the POCO? LOL

I always work one leg at a time on a fiberglass ladder and not touching the house. I wear gloves with rubber coating altho they are NOT insulated. I tighten the romex connectors around the wires, then tape it up good with the scrap rolls of Super 88 that the POCO always throws on the ground. Then I tell the homeowner to call the POCO, they come and run a larger ACSR and use proper crimps.


----------



## lynx82

sparks134 said:


> How is the best way to disconnect then reconnect an overhead service LIVE?


with an aluminum ladder:thumbsup:

I'm kidding just in case your ********. Be careful.


----------



## sparks134

sometimes you have to do it live!!!!!


----------



## captkirk

Shut off the main, pull out the meter, get a ladder and cut the two hots first with your linemans and tape the end of each one as you go and bend them out of the way, then cut the neutral. At this point I will tape up the bare neutral with white tape from the bug up just to give me a little more security when I go to re connect later.


----------



## captkirk

I am really surprised at how many guys dont cut in their own services. You do know that there is the same potential to ground as an outlet right..? your on a fiberglass ladder......and as long as the pesky neutral is away from you, your good to go. Ive seen the poco work on services with nothing more than leather gloves......? several times to boot....


----------



## Raco

captkirk said:


> You do know that there is the same potential to ground as an outlet right..?


What's the fault current on that outlet which is on a 15 or 20 amp breaker?

What's the fault current on your drop which is fused somewhere down the line at what current? Linemen want to step in?


----------



## captkirk

Raco said:


> What's the fault current on that outlet which is on a 15 or 20 amp breaker?
> 
> What's the fault current on your drop which is fused somewhere down the line at what current? Linemen want to step in?


I dont make it a habit of holding on to a live wire if I were to come into contact with it. Besides what does fault current have anything to do with it? didnt you play Operation when you were little.? 
But in all seriousness if I had to call the poco to come disconnect the service, come back to connect the service im not so sure I would want to even bother with service changes. And they are a real money maker for me. 2500-3300 for a days work is pretty good for me. Im sure its chump change to all you big guys out there but its good cash for me.

Its tough enough having to go do site visit, get permit from town, get permit from pseg, do work hopefully in one day with helper, come back for inspection. I couldnt imagine if I had to cordinate PSEG on disconnecting and then comming back to reconnect all while the homeowner is up my ass going "How long untill the power is back on" If I had to do that I wouldnt bother. 
And for what its worth im my almost 10 years of doing electrical work I think I got buzzed once very lightly too. And it was like my second tie in (supervised of course) and I got "tickled" probably because I was a nervous nellie.


----------



## Raco

captkirk said:


> I dont make it a habit of holding on to a live wire if I were to come into contact with it. Besides what does fault current have anything to do with it? didnt you play Operation when you were little.?
> But in all seriousness if I had to call the poco to come disconnect the service, come back to connect the service im not so sure I would want to even bother with service changes. And they are a real money maker for me. 2500-3300 for a days work is pretty good for me. Im sure its chump change to all you big guys out there but its good cash for me.
> 
> Its tough enough having to go do site visit, get permit from town, get permit from pseg, do work hopefully in one day with helper, come back for inspection. I couldnt imagine if I had to cordinate PSEG on disconnecting and then comming back to reconnect all while the homeowner is up my ass going "How long untill the power is back on" If I had to do that I wouldnt bother.


 If you read my post above you'll see that I don't wait for PSE&G or JCP&L either. I'm not arguing with anything you said except that a blast from a drop would be much more dangerous than one from a receptacle.


----------



## lynx82

Raco said:


> If you read my post above you'll see that I don't wait for PSE&G or JCP&L either. I'm not arguing with anything you said except that a blast from a drop would be much more dangerous than one from a receptacle.


I think a blast from a receptacle on a circuit with a high amperage load on it might be worse than clean 120.


----------



## captkirk

Raco said:


> If you read my post above you'll see that I don't wait for PSE&G or JCP&L either. I'm not arguing with anything you said except that a blast from a drop would be much more dangerous than one from a receptacle.


 The most important thing when working on a ladder is to be in control of your situation. Make sure the service drop wires are of in good condition, (one time I had to call ps to come out and change them before I did any work because they were in such ratty shape) position yourself in a good, commanding spot, so that you dont have to reach, bend, or do anything else you dont want to do on a ladder. when you are working with the wires make sure you have complete control of it and safe it off when your done with it. I assure you that it has nothing to do with macho ness. I just want to get the job done in a timely manner and collect my check. If i had to add ps into the mix im not so sure I could remain competitive on the price. Its getting harder and harder to get over 3 grand for a service change. To many guys doing them for basically a sandwich and a promise that youll be best friends. There is an EC on this site that is advertising service changes for 1450. And that is a tough one to compete with. DO you think he waits for the poco to reconnect..?


----------



## captkirk

Raco said:


> If you read my post above you'll see that I don't wait for PSE&G or JCP&L either. I'm not arguing with anything you said except that a blast from a drop would be much more dangerous than one from a receptacle.


 I personally wouldnt leave a home unless the proper wire connectors are used. I saw wires burn up on a renovation, when my buddy used romeex conns to temp in the service wires. True story too. We were eating luch in the truck and the carpenters were using compressors, saws you name it and the loose connection cased the wires to heat up and start smoking. I never saw my buddy move so fast. In about two seconds he was on the top floor with the trucks fire extingusher and one leg out the window putting out the fire while I ran to the basement to turn off the main.


----------



## Toronto Sparky

Seems even though I am retired due to illness I have to trouble shoot a good friend of the familys aluminum wired house.. wish me luck..


----------



## sparks134

when you reconnect the feeders, do you start with the nuetral ,then the two hots?


----------



## Raco

sparks134 said:


> when you reconnect the feeders, do you start with the nuetral ,then the two hots?


With the meter pulled I don't think it really matters. I normally like to get the hots done and out of the way as soon as I can.


----------



## sparks134

if i put in jumpers at the meter, then I guess I would tie in the neutral first then the hots!


----------



## Raco

sparks134 said:


> if i put in jumpers at the meter, then I guess I would tie in the neutral first then the hots!


I would shut off the main and remove any jumpers before splicing. Why would you chance the arc?


----------



## nitro71

Get yourself a Fluke tick tester and use it on everything once the service has been energized. The biggest lie you are going to hear is that power is off and it's safe for you to work on. Test everything.


----------



## JohnJ0906

nitro71 said:


> Get yourself a Fluke tick tester and use it on everything once the service has been energized. The biggest lie you are going to hear is that power is off and it's safe for you to work on. Test everything.


I agree with the testing, but use a real tester, such as a DMM, don't use a tick stick.


----------



## Briancraig81

> I think a blast from a receptacle on a circuit with a high amperage load on it might be worse than clean 120.


I once shorted out a hot meter (Briefly) once. We were working on an old house way out in the sticks, house had one of those small round meter bases (60a). Meter wasn't in (House had just been bought) and we had both legs jumped with two pieces of #12 just so we could run the sawzall and rotary hammer. Got ready to leave and instead of pulling the line side of the jumper out first I grabbed the jumper right in the middle and tried to pull it out at once. Load side pulled loose and touched the side of the meter base. I got a nice bright flash and a loud pop but that was all. I was jerking the jumper out, so it shorted and then pulled out on the line side. Other than being blind for a few seconds, I was fine.


----------



## Puccagirl

When I was a an apprentice a ga-zillion years ago, we had little choice but to work on live ccts (347 volt lighting) in places like stairwells or where emergency lighting could not be shut off.

I was scared of being shocked so I was very careful. Although I did short 600volts once.. (only once) but wasn't very eventful other than shutting off some lights in an elevator.

I know of an electrical engineer who opened up some old switchgear and something blew up. He was in the hospital and in treatment for a year getting skin graphs.. very scary and makes you develop a respect for electricity.


----------



## RH1

Zog said:


> Actually it is the opposite, higher voltages cause a "skin effect", so the current tracks on the surface of the skin and will not penatrate the skin and cause burning of the nervous systems and blood vessels. (Same reason hollow tubes are used for HV outdoor substations, no need for the center to exist)
> 
> Lower voltages puncture the skin and cause current to flow thorugh the circulatory and nervous systems causing internal burns and nerve damages.
> 
> Of course voltage is only 1 of 8 factors that determine the severity of an elcetric shock, but discounting all other factors, lower voltages are more dangerous than higher voltages simply due to the skin effect.


It's clear you haven't a clue what skin effect is. Skin effect has nothing to do with voltage, it is a function of frequency and it only happens at frequencies above VHF. 
.
.


----------



## Zog

RH1 said:


> It's clear you haven't a clue what skin effect is. Skin effect has nothing to do with voltage, it is a function of frequency and it only happens at frequencies above VHF.
> .
> .


There is a different type of skin effect, which is present at all frequencies in an AC system, this is refering to the increase in conductor effective resistance from the eddy currents developed in AC systems, these eddy currents (More apparant in the center of the conductor) are directly related to frequency so the effective resistance of a conductor will increase as frequency increases. 

Skin effect from high voltages is a different concept and is accounted for in the design of every high voltage system


----------



## Toronto Sparky

Raco said:


> What's the fault current on that outlet which is on a 15 or 20 amp breaker?
> 
> What's the fault current on your drop which is fused somewhere down the line at what current? Linemen want to step in?



100,000 amps or more?

Voltage isn't what kills us.. it's the amps and the flashes they produce. 
Very few electricians get electrocuted, most get burned!


----------



## AFOREMA1

Hi guys 
All equipment is "live" until tested live-dead-live so everybody should be wearing the minimum level protection everytime they go out unless working solely on voltages below 50v. And nobody should work on live gear if not necessary its just dumb when you can turn off a breaker in 2 seconds. On the occassions you do need to work live troubleshooting, POCO hook-up you should have some of that marshmallow gear bsed on what you are working on to protect yourself to some degree. couple of links below for the new guys/apprentices about NFPA 70E and arcflash. 

I belive others have already said it but never trust someone even your journey or master if they tell you something is dead verify for yourselves its your right and responsibility and use electrical control and lockout procedure when you can as well. Just my 2 cents.


http://www.nsls.bnl.gov/esh/highlights/pdf/nfpa_presentation.pdf
http://www.agc-oregon.org/public/programs/05_07NFPA_70E.pdf
http://www.eswpco.com/frclothing


----------



## robnj772

Your too late the OP is a master electrician by now......:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## nitro71

JohnJ0906 said:


> I agree with the testing, but use a real tester, such as a DMM, don't use a tick stick.


I disagree on this and think a quality Fluke tick stick is a valuable tool. When you are working on supposedly dead circuits or you have a live circuit and need to identify it they work well. A quality tool is a quality tool whether it's a meter or tick stick. I've never had mine not detect live voltage when used properly. On the other hand I've borrowed meters with taped up leads, dead batteries or ones that plain don't work well(Ideal). Just like a meter you need to test your tick stick on known live voltage before you trust it. Course I don't always test either of them but I'm pretty religious about sticking the tick on something live before I use it.


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## Grimlock

I usually have 2 of these in my tool belt when doing service work:
Fluke 1AC-II / 1LAC-II VoltAlert


----------



## vanvincent218

hey newbie youll be fine just do what your JW tells ya. but keep your wiggy handy and always check before you touch!!! even when someone tells ya its not hot..check it anyway!!! ALWAYS and EVERY TIME!! youll eventually get a lock-out tag-out set and instructions on how to use it safely!:thumbsup: if you ever feel its not safe,,ASK!! good luck!!


----------



## B4T

Grimlock said:


> I usually have 2 of these in my tool belt when doing service work:
> Fluke 1AC-II / 1LAC-II VoltAlert


I don't trust those "gadgets" and only use a REAL solenoid type tester :thumbsup:


----------



## jwjrw

Black4Truck said:


> I don't trust those "gadgets" and only use a REAL solenoid type tester :thumbsup:


I dont ever touch anything until I wiggly my wiggy on it!:thumbup:


----------



## logico

MDShunk said:


> Working live, in large part, is plainly illegal. You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live. There are instances where you must, but the safety requirements are great, and you will receive special training. You'll still find guys who feel some overwhelming need to display their bravado and work live for no good reason. Those guys are idiots.


 wow! i had no idea this was illegal.my first week working for a contractor he had me working live. i lost a good pair of strippers that day this was 6 months ago.


----------



## Puccagirl

logico said:


> wow! i had no idea this was illegal.my first week working for a contractor he had me working live. i lost a good pair of strippers that day this was 6 months ago.


 
In Canada, as an apprentice we had no choice other than to work on live circuits (usually 347 volts) since they fed emergency lighting in active areas like stairwells, etc.


----------



## B W E

The last company I worked for (all commercial) had us working live almost 90% of the time, unless it was new construction. I remember one job specifically, was a TS call to a rooftop a/c unit, 480v 20amp. the emt penetrating the roof connected to an LB, which then went to sealtight. During a hotmopping project, the emt was hit by a wheel-barrow and broke the connector at the LB. I was there by myself, and was unable to locate the circuit because there were multiple 480 panels, i think three or four, and NOTHING was labeled. Called my boss, and he told me to just carefully take apart the fittings on the roof to expose enough wire to cut, then install a WP j-box. I was foolish enough to not want to trouble the company by sending out someone to help, and didnt want to "inconvenience" the business by shutting off breakers to find the circuit i was working on, so i did it hot. It was NOT fun, at all.


----------



## Stan B.

InPhase277 said:


> I've learned on these forums that any live work is the same as being in Al Qaeda. I don't even change a light bulb without:
> 
> 
> 
> Closing off a five block radius
> Posting a bomb squad outside
> Having a disaster recovery team posted nearby
> Suiting up in full PPE
> Sending in the bulb changing robot
> Shutting down the grid on the entire East Coast
> Locking the door of the remote fallout shelter where I'm stationed
> Lowering my arc flash helmet as I engage the remote control
> An eight step, multi-million dollar project for a single ceiling fan bulb means you have to be an incredible salesman. Doing it any other way means you are "macho", or stupid, or both.


:laughing:


----------



## MHElectric

I work "live" a good 80% of the time. This is the way I was taught, and I have grown fairly accustomed to it. The company I used to work for expected you to work live just like they expected you to show up to work in the morning, and when I was a greenhorn I had to work everything hot just to see if I had what it takes. Needless to say I dont run my company like that, I wont make anyone work on a hot circuit unless there is absolutely no other way. But I myself, do work live.


----------



## Shorty Circuit

In the US OSHA refers to a continuous industrial process which is not what it sounds like. What it means is that if it is safe to turn off power without creating a hazard or increasing an existing hazard, you must shut it off. Here is the definitive OSHA ruling.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25559

This is why I always try to install some sort of fire alarm panel or safety device wherever I can and I specify I-Line distribution panels to make it legal and safe to perform hot work. If you can't work a 208 volt branch circuit panel or an I Line panel hot without getting hurt you should get out of the business IMO. Of course you must still conform to arc flash rules and the owner's safety procedures if he has any. 

I stopped specifying multiwire branch circuit panels over 25 years ago. I heard of a lot of guys getting hurt on neutrals on 277Volt lighting circuits. The reason is that electronc ballasts produce harmonics. At the point where the J-box splices the home run to the branches the neutral is well above ground potential at high frequencies. NEC now recognizes this and requires MWBCs to source from a 2P or 3P breaker killing all hot legs having a common neutral at the same time.

Until about 10 or 15 years ago, IBEW electricians received 3 years of supervised hot work as part of their 5 year apprenticeship program. I presmue the rules have become stricter because cheapskate owners hired unqualified electicians and pressured them into working dangerously and a lot of them gut hurt. We just never heard about it but OSHA and NEC (NEC is written for insurance companies) knew all along how many there were. Should unqualified electricians get fried on the job? Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one.


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> In the US OSHA refers to a continuous industrial process which is not what it sounds like. What it means is that if it is safe to turn off power without creating a hazard or increasing an existing hazard, you must shut it off. Here is the definitive OSHA ruling.
> 
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25559
> 
> *This is why I always try to install some sort of fire alarm panel or safety device wherever I can and I specify I-Line distribution panels to make it legal and safe to perform hot work. *


You are either trolling or very irresponsible.

And neither of the items you mention make it 'legal' to do hot work and defiantly do not make it safe.




> If you can't work a 208 volt branch circuit panel or an I Line panel hot without getting hurt you should get out of the business IMO.



The troll is very strong here ........





> I stopped specifying multiwire branch circuit panels over 25 years ago. I heard of a lot of guys getting hurt on neutrals on 277Volt lighting circuits. The reason is that electronc ballasts produce harmonics. *At the point where the J-box splices the home run to the branches the neutral is well above ground potential at high frequencies.* NEC now recognizes this and requires MWBCs to source from a 2P or 3P breaker killing all hot legs having a common neutral at the same time.


That is bullchit in it's purest form





> Until about 10 or 15 years ago, IBEW electricians received 3 years of supervised hot work as part of their 5 year apprenticeship program. I presmue the rules have become stricter because cheapskate owners hired unqualified electicians and pressured them into working dangerously and a lot of them gut hurt. We just never heard about it but OSHA and NEC (NEC is written for insurance companies) knew all along how many there were. Should unqualified electricians get fried on the job? Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one.


More trolling.


----------



## lefleuron

I think it smells like urine in this thread.


----------



## jmsmith

Shorty Circuit said:


> In the US OSHA refers to a continuous industrial process which is not what it sounds like. What it means is that if it is safe to turn off power without creating a hazard or increasing an existing hazard, you must shut it off. Here is the definitive OSHA ruling.
> 
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25559
> 
> This is why I always try to install some sort of fire alarm panel or safety device wherever I can and I specify I-Line distribution panels to make it legal and safe to perform hot work. If you can't work a 208 volt branch circuit panel or an I Line panel hot without getting hurt you should get out of the business IMO. Of course you must still conform to arc flash rules and the owner's safety procedures if he has any.
> 
> I stopped specifying multiwire branch circuit panels over 25 years ago. I heard of a lot of guys getting hurt on neutrals on 277Volt lighting circuits. The reason is that electronc ballasts produce harmonics. At the point where the J-box splices the home run to the branches the neutral is well above ground potential at high frequencies. NEC now recognizes this and requires MWBCs to source from a 2P or 3P breaker killing all hot legs having a common neutral at the same time.
> 
> Until about 10 or 15 years ago, IBEW electricians received 3 years of supervised hot work as part of their 5 year apprenticeship program. I presmue the rules have become stricter because cheapskate owners hired unqualified electicians and pressured them into working dangerously and a lot of them gut hurt. We just never heard about it but OSHA and NEC (NEC is written for insurance companies) knew all along how many there were. Should unqualified electricians get fried on the job? Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one.


I was brought-up on hot work. I know there are times when it has to be done. BTW, I don't see power transmission
work as being an "industrial process", or changing-out a transformer in someone's neighborhood. And I have seen switchgear fail, including I line... so what is it about this gear to make it "legal and safe"? I still work hot if I have to, but only then. I keep up my NFPA 70E cert, and in a permit situation with the proper PPE, will do this. But where I can power-down, why risk it. BTW, was taught to WORK ALWAYS AS IF IT IS HOT.


----------



## Big John

jmsmith said:


> ...BTW, was taught to WORK ALWAYS AS IF IT IS HOT.


 I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I hear that expression a lot and honestly don't get what it means.

I can understanding treating something as energized until you LOTO and confirm dead, but why would you treat it as energized after that? And what are you actually doing differently?

-John


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I hear that expression a lot and honestly don't get what it means.
> 
> I can understanding treating something as energized until you LOTO and confirm dead, but why would you treat it as energized after that? And what are you actually doing differently?
> 
> -John


Well, John, you know the world ain't such a perfect place... Wish it was! I firmly believe in using LOTO, and know that I use it and respect others' locks being attached to a piece of gear. But there are others out there that don't. All too often, I have seen cases in which I was the one to dish out punishment on someone who had no cotton-pickin' right to put their cutters on someone else's lock. Sorry for the rant. That is why I follow that rule... You just never know, especially with some some of the cheapie ones they sell to use in a breaker panel... As for the saying, it just reminds me to check, check again, and TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED! Have a good day....
- Jim


----------



## RIVETER

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, the only thing "live" an apprentice is likely to work with is the extension cord you'll plug your tools into. :thumbsup:


What if the tool does not work? Will he just throw the cord away...or test it...LIVE...with a meter?


----------



## jmsmith

jmsmith said:


> Well, John, you know the world ain't such a perfect place... Wish it was! I firmly believe in using LOTO, and know that I use it and respect others' locks being attached to a piece of gear. But there are others out there that don't. All too often, I have seen cases in which I was the one to dish out punishment on someone who had no cotton-pickin' right to put their cutters on someone else's lock. Sorry for the rant. That is why I follow that rule... You just never know, especially with some some of the cheapie ones they sell to use in a breaker panel... As for the saying, it just reminds me to check, check again, and TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED! Have a good day....
> - Jim


I WISH I was the one... Not I was the one.
I have worked in a lot of multiequipment control panels. Plenty of chances of control voltages for unrelated equipment being in the same panel, and accidently contacting it.


----------



## Shorty Circuit

jmsmith said:


> I was brought-up on hot work. I know there are times when it has to be done. BTW, I don't see power transmission
> work as being an "industrial process", or changing-out a transformer in someone's neighborhood. And I have seen switchgear fail, including I line... so what is it about this gear to make it "legal and safe"? I still work hot if I have to, but only then. I keep up my NFPA 70E cert, and in a permit situation with the proper PPE, will do this. But where I can power-down, why risk it. BTW, was taught to WORK ALWAYS AS IF IT IS HOT.


Electric utilities are exempt from NEC working on their own utility transmission and distribution equipment. I don't have the code in front of me so I can't cite the section but it's right in the first couple of pages at the front. Working on their own office buildings it's another story, they're subject to NEC just like everyone else where that code is adopted into law.

Square D I-Line panels are uniquely constructed and although the design is probably at least 50 years old by now, IMO it's the best design out there. Most distribution panelboards used exposed copper or aluminum bus bars, plates facing you. Breakers are installed on standoff brackets screwed into the plates with machine screws. These brackets are call bus fingers I think. If you don't already have the brackets installed for the breaker frame size you need, you have to shut the panelboard down to install them. In one case I saw, even shims were needed too. I line panels use buswork that's a series of sideways facing U shaped channels. The breakers ratchet in sideways. They're actually plug on. It can be ratched in or out in just a few seconds and there are no adaptors required. The buswork is fairly well protected even without a hot blanket. You bring your branch circuit feeders into the gutter at the sides, ratchet in the breaker, and you're safe to terminate. Every I line breaker fits those channels, the only criteria is how wide the panel enclosure is. In Square D's catalog they show you for each panel enclosure width which breaker styles will fit. There are no doubts. QED and QED 2 panels are actually variants of I-Line for service entrances. 

LOTO is the law. If you have a tag and you place your tag and lock on a breaker or switch, it is a federal felony for anyone except you to remove it. I had a bus switch locked out for over a year. The X-Ray crystalography machine it was connected to was in a lab so badly built it took a whole year to straighten the mess out to the pont where I was satisfied it was safe to turn it on. I know of one IUOE electrician who was nearly killed moonlighting and a guy threw a breaker on that wasn't tagged our locked out. Guy was badly burned and in the hospital and rehab for a long time.


----------



## gold

Shorty Circuit said:


> LOTO is the law. If you have a tag and you place your tag and lock on a breaker or switch,* it is a federal felony for anyone except you to remove it*.


I never heard of this do you have any kind of reference?


----------



## jmsmith

Yes, I am aware that utilities are under their own code. I have also worked in some oil refineries and chemical plants that have been considered "continuous processes". What does OSHA say about this? How about hospitals or other places with life support systems? Yeah, sometimes that situation presents itself. Both OSHA and NFPA 70E take these into account. That is why NFPA has constant training going on for electrical workers.
Also, I have NEVER seen someone fired for refusing to do live work.


----------



## BBQ

gold said:


> I never heard of this do you have any kind of reference?


He is making things up.

OSHA actually outlines how a lock can be removed by another person.


----------



## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> He is making things up.
> 
> OSHA actually outlines how a lock can be removed by another person.


I believe you must get that person's permission.


----------



## buddhakii

Shorty Circuit said:


> Electric utilities are exempt from NEC working on their own utility transmission and distribution equipment. I don't have the code in front of me so I can't cite the section but it's right in the first couple of pages at the front. Working on their own office buildings it's another story, they're subject to NEC just like everyone else where that code is adopted into law.
> 
> Square D I-Line panels are uniquely constructed and although the design is probably at least 50 years old by now, IMO it's the best design out there. Most distribution panelboards used exposed copper or aluminum bus bars, plates facing you. Breakers are installed on standoff brackets screwed into the plates with machine screws. These brackets are call bus fingers I think. If you don't already have the brackets installed for the breaker frame size you need, you have to shut the panelboard down to install them. In one case I saw, even shims were needed too. I line panels use buswork that's a series of sideways facing U shaped channels. The breakers ratchet in sideways. They're actually plug on. It can be ratched in or out in just a few seconds and there are no adaptors required. The buswork is fairly well protected even without a hot blanket. You bring your branch circuit feeders into the gutter at the sides, ratchet in the breaker, and you're safe to terminate. Every I line breaker fits those channels, the only criteria is how wide the panel enclosure is. In Square D's catalog they show you for each panel enclosure width which breaker styles will fit. There are no doubts. QED and QED 2 panels are actually variants of I-Line for service entrances.
> 
> LOTO is the law. If you have a tag and you place your tag and lock on a breaker or switch, it is a federal felony for anyone except you to remove it. I had a bus switch locked out for over a year. The X-Ray crystalography machine it was connected to was in a lab so badly built it took a whole year to straighten the mess out to the pont where I was satisfied it was safe to turn it on. I know of one IUOE electrician who was nearly killed moonlighting and a guy threw a breaker on that wasn't tagged our locked out. Guy was badly burned and in the hospital and rehab for a long time.


They are exempt from the NEC but I don't believe they are exempt from OSHA. As for I-line panels I see no safety benefit. There is just as much of a chance for arc flash as any other panel. And many places I work won't allow plug in style breakers. They want a positive connection with a bolt.


----------



## BBQ

HARRY304E said:


> I believe you must get that person's permission.


Not really, but you do have to try.



> 1910.147(e)(3)
> 
> Lockout or tagout devices removal. Each lockout or tagout device shall be removed from each energy isolating device by the employee who applied the device. Exception to paragraph (e)(3): When the authorized employee who applied the lockout or tagout device is not available to remove it, that device may be removed under the direction of the employer, provided that specific procedures and training for such removal have been developed, documented and incorporated into the employer's energy control program. The employer shall demonstrate that the specific procedure provides equivalent safety to the removal of the device by the authorized employee who applied it. The specific procedure shall include at least the following elements:
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(i)
> 
> Verification by the employer that the authorized employee who applied the device is not at the facility:
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(ii)
> 
> Making all reasonable efforts to contact the authorized employee to inform him/her that his/her lockout or tagout device has been removed; and
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(iii)
> 
> Ensuring that the authorized employee has this knowledge before he/she resumes work at that facility.
> 
> 1910.147(f)


----------



## jmsmith

BBQ said:


> He is making things up.
> 
> OSHA actually outlines how a lock can be removed by another person.


I agree with this, BBQ. Most places I've seen either the person had to come back in on his own time, or his immediate supervisor could make an assessment of whether it would be safe and allow lock removal. Most places I've been to actually hold a master key to any of their locks. Even though OSHA mandates LOTO, it is up to the OUTFIT to come up with THEIR OWN LOTO procedure, just so it follows their guidelines. To me that would be kinda hard to interpret as "THE LAW".


----------



## Big John

buddhakii said:


> They are exempt from the NEC but I don't believe they are exempt from OSHA....


 Utilities follow a different part of OSHA, 1910.269, when it comes to maintaining equipment specifically related to generation or transmission, and this does allow energized work.

But when fixing a parking-lot light or receptacle in the powerhouse, I fall under the same OSHA rules as everyone else and LOTO.

-John


----------



## 360max

MDShunk said:


> Working live, in large part, is plainly illegal. You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live. There are instances where you must, but the safety requirements are great, and you will receive special training.* You'll still find guys who feel some overwhelming need to display their bravado and work live for no good reason. Those guys are idiots.*



Do you have the local Power Co. come out and pull the meter when working in a residential panel?


----------



## user4818

360max said:


> [/B]
> Do you have the local Power Co. come out and pull the meter when working in a residential panel?


I said it before and I will say it again, if an owner has an employee work live and something goes wrong, he will be on the hook for it, whether the accident occurred in a dwelling unit or a factory. Some want to roll the dice, others are not so keen to take those risks.


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> [/B]
> Do you have the local Power Co. come out and pull the meter when working in a residential panel?


Marc posted that on 09-02-2009 and has not been around in a while.


----------



## 360max

Fact is, most/all of us on this site would not even consider calling the power co. to pull the meter on a residential job, nor would you see an electrician suited up in Aunt Betsey's basement..


----------



## user4818

360max said:


> Fact is, most/all of us on this site would not even consider calling the power co. to pull the meter on a residential job, nor would you see an electrician suited up in Aunt Betsey's basement..


Doesn't matter what they do or don't do. If they are employees, they are violating OSHA rules by working live.

This issue is very cut and dry. The trouble is with people who can't accept the rules.


----------



## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> Not really, but you do have to try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)
> 
> Lockout or tagout devices removal. Each lockout or tagout device shall be removed from each energy isolating device by the employee who applied the device. Exception to paragraph (e)(3): When the authorized employee who applied the lockout or tagout device is not available to remove it, that device may be removed under the direction of the employer, provided that specific procedures and training for such removal have been developed, documented and incorporated into the employer's energy control program. The employer shall demonstrate that the specific procedure provides equivalent safety to the removal of the device by the authorized employee who applied it. The specific procedure shall include at least the following elements:
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(i)
> 
> Verification by the employer that the authorized employee who applied the device is not at the facility:
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(ii)
> 
> Making all reasonable efforts to contact the authorized employee to inform him/her that his/her lockout or tagout device has been removed; and
> 
> 1910.147(e)(3)(iii)
> 
> Ensuring that the authorized employee has this knowledge before he/she resumes work at that facility.
> 
> 1910.147(f)
Click to expand...

Thanks it has been a while since i read that..:thumbsup:


----------



## 360max

Peter D said:


> Doesn't matter what they do or don't do. If they are employees, they are violating OSHA rules by working live.
> 
> This issue is very cut and dry. The trouble is with people who can't accept the rules.


Pete, I appreciate you pointing out what OSHA requires, but from a practical stand point, can you sit there and say you can see residential electricians suited up with the proper equipment? I don't!


----------



## user4818

360max said:


> Pete, I appreciate you pointing out what OSHA requires, but from a practical stand point, can you sit there and say you can see residential electricians suited up with the proper equipment? I don't!


If they are an employee, they have no choice. They must shut the power off.


----------



## jmsmith

360max said:


> Pete, I appreciate you pointing out what OSHA requires, but from a practical stand point, can you sit there and say you can see residential electricians suited up with the proper equipment? I don't!


On all seriousness, though, if you look at 110.16 in the 2011 NEC, it states "other than dwelling units". This is in relation to the arc flash labeling required on switchgear. This excludes residential work having above the normally-expected PPE for the job (such as eye, hearing, etc.). As far as the rest goes, I have seen PPE being required as long as there were ANY panels on switchgear was opened or removed, whether for testing, or withdrawing and inserting units. If adding sections to existing buss, well that had to wait for a time in which the main to that equipment could be shut-down and locked-out until buss is extended, tied-in, and ALL panels, barriers, etc. in place and tested BEFORE being re-energized.


----------



## jmsmith

And as far as line and power work goes, there are a lot of heavy-industrial customers that operate their own subs, and POCO is not responsible for maintenance on these. Like it or not, there will always be live work situations. It is up to US to follow these guidelines and be safe.... Have a good day...
:thumbsup:


----------



## sparky105

Peter D said:


> Working at 277 or 480 volts live is bad enough. Working at 347 or 600 volts live is just plain insanity.
> 
> I've been shocked by 277 only once and that was bad....I can only imagine what 347 is like. 480 or 600? I don't ever want to find out. :no:


its like getting hit in the head with a bus


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> Fact is, most/all of us on this site would not even consider calling the power co. to pull the meter on a residential job, nor would you see an electrician suited up in Aunt Betsey's basement..


I had no idea you had been elected to speak for all.:jester:

The fact is many EC are not up to speed with the new requirements and that is fine to each their own. But if the crap hits the fan you will not have a bit of defense.


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> Pete, I appreciate you pointing out what OSHA requires, but from a practical stand point, can you sit there and say you can see residential electricians suited up with the proper equipment? I don't!


I am not sure the point you are trying to make, it sounds like a kid telling his parents _'All the cool kids do it'.
_
Do I call for a shutdown at my own house? Nope

Do I at work? Yes. of course I don't work on homes at work.


BTW, the fact that the Shockdoc is thanking your posts should tell ya something.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 360max

BBQ said:


> I had no idea you had been elected to speak for all.:jester:
> 
> The fact is many EC are not up to speed with the new requirements and that is fine to each their own. But if the crap hits the fan you will not have a bit of defense.


Bob, I am not speaking for all of you (ie; *many*/all), but I do believe that when electricians go into* residential panels* they do not follow OSHA guidelines.


----------



## chicken steve

BBQ said:


> I had no idea you had been elected to speak for all.:jester:
> 
> The fact is many EC are not up to speed with the new requirements and that is fine to each their own. But if the crap hits the fan you will not have a bit of defense.


indeed so

well i make an effort, especially in an industrial setting and/or with apprentices in my roll as foreskin....

but i just got back from fishing a hot tub feeder into a live panel. I turned off the main, but didn't yank the meter. Did it myself, as well as alone. 

As i'm not an employee _(who would put up with me?)_ i can thumb my nose at OSHA working alone, in fact most of us do

doesn't make us _bad _sparky's, does it?

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

360max said:


> Bob, I am not speaking for all of you (ie; *many*/all), but I do believe that when electricians go into* residential panels* they do not follow OSHA guidelines.


just gotta complete arc suit

soup to nuts.....

now IF we could advertize it as a business proposition , and IF the public was keen to it, our trade would look like tricker treaters overnight

~CS~


----------



## Big John

chicken steve said:


> ...But i just got back from fishing a hot tub feeder into a live panel. I turned off the main, but didn't yank the meter. Did it myself, as well as alone....


 I think most of us would do that. 

But the ultimate point of this whole discussion seems to just be getting people to acknowledge reality:


 If someone is an employee it's almost always illegal to work hot.
If something gets injured as a result, OSHA will be issuing fines.
 It has absolutely no bearing on what you've always done, what you think is okay, how comfortable you are doing it, or what your employer says. None of that means anything.

-John


----------



## BBQ

chicken steve said:


> now IF we could advertize it as a business proposition


We do exactly that and it works, of course we aim it at GCs that are looking for it.

Hell we even have a bright orange Dodge 'Safety Sprinter' to take safety training to the jobs. GCs have had our safety guy train other trades on the job.

I do understand at this point no homeowner would be impressed.


----------



## 360max

BBQ said:


> I am not sure the point you are trying to make, it sounds like a kid telling his parents _'All the cool kids do it'.
> _
> *Do I call for a shutdown at my own house? Nope*
> 
> Do I at work? Yes. of course I don't work on homes at work.
> 
> 
> BTW, the fact that the Shockdoc is thanking your posts should tell ya something.:laughing::laughing:


Work safe Bob


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> Bob, I am not speaking for all of you (ie; *many*/all), but I do believe that when electricians go into* residential panels* they do not follow OSHA guidelines.


Again what exactly is your point?

Yes, many people do violate many rules, how does this change the rules? Or how does that effect you?


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> Work safe Bob


Just being honest with ya. 

When I am working on my own home there are no OSHA requirements to follow.


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> I think most of us would do that.
> 
> But the ultimate point of this whole discussion seems to just be getting people to acknowledge reality:
> 
> 
> [*] If someone is an employee it's almost always illegal to work hot.
> [*]If something gets injured as a result, OSHA will be issuing fines.
> 
> It has absolutely no bearing on what you've always done, what you think is okay, how comfortable you are doing it, or what your employer says. None of that means anything.
> 
> -John


I agree here.... That is why these rules are always being put into place. Even in heavy industrial, the majority of live work should be no more than test, remove, insert units in switchgear, not working on equipment that the gear is feeding. Realistically, this should be less than 10% of the time. As I asked before, why would anyone in their right mind want to risk a fine? Or worst yet, not making it back home to work another day? I don't look at it as havin' a set ... more like a lack of good common sense!
:blink:


----------



## Shockdoc

chicken steve said:


> just gotta complete arc suit
> 
> soup to nuts.....
> 
> now IF we could advertize it as a business proposition , and IF the public was keen to it, our trade would look like tricker treaters overnight
> 
> ~CS~


Or we could probably moonlight as asbestos removal techs with those outfits.


----------



## chicken steve

Big John said:


> I think most of us would do that.
> 
> But the ultimate point of this whole discussion seems to just be getting people to acknowledge reality:
> 
> 
> If someone is an employee it's almost always illegal to work hot.
> If something gets injured as a result, OSHA will be issuing fines.
> It has absolutely no bearing on what you've always done, what you think is okay, how comfortable you are doing it, or what your employer says. None of that means anything.
> 
> -John


No argument whatsoever John

I do try and teach the pups right, despite being raised by wolves in this trade

~CS~


----------



## Shorty Circuit

BBQ said:


> You are either trolling or very irresponsible.
> 
> And neither of the items you mention make it 'legal' to do hot work and defiantly do not make it safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The troll is very strong here ........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is bullchit in it's purest form
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More trolling.


If you can't work an I-Line panel hot safely I definitely don't want you on any job I'm running. And that includes even where there's no I-Line panels around for miles and everything is shut down.


----------



## Big John

Shorty Circuit said:


> If you can't work an I-Line panel hot safely I definitely don't want you on any job I'm running....


If you're requiring people to work anything hot, you have no business running jobs.

-John


----------



## Shorty Circuit

Big John said:


> If you're requiring people to work anything hot, you have no business running jobs.
> 
> -John


 
I didn't say that I would require them to. However, I know that particular panel can be worked hot safely which is one reason I always spec it out and try to put something that constitutes a continuous industrial process in it so that it is legal to work it hot. I can play OSHA's game by their rules and still win. I've had to go to more Saturday midnight shutdowns installing feeder breakers for data centers than I care to think about because someone saved a hundred bucks putting in a GE or ITE or Westinghouse panel instead. The world isn't all dual path and one time nothing was.


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> If you're requiring people to work anything hot, you have no business running jobs.
> 
> -John


Do you think he's found the magic "perfect panel"? 
:wall bash:


----------



## jmsmith

jmsmith said:


> Do you think he's found the magic "perfect panel"?
> :wall bash:


:wallbash:


----------



## jza

I work live as much as possible.


----------



## user4818

jza said:


> I work live as much as possible.


:yawn:


----------



## Shorty Circuit

Hey, if you can't handle it, don't do it. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself on my account. I'll just get someone else who can.


----------



## rdr

chicken steve said:


> indeed so
> 
> well i make an effort, especially in an industrial setting *and/or with apprentices in my roll as foreskin....*
> 
> but i just got back from fishing a hot tub feeder into a live panel. I turned off the main, but didn't yank the meter. Did it myself, as well as alone.
> 
> As i'm not an employee _(who would put up with me?)_ i can thumb my nose at OSHA working alone, in fact most of us do
> 
> doesn't make us _bad _sparky's, does it?
> 
> ~CS~


WTF???:blink:


----------



## user4818

Shorty Circuit said:


> Hey, if you can't handle it, don't do it. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself on my account. I'll just get someone else who can.


You're just trolling.


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> You're just trolling.


And not even decently.:jester:


----------



## Toronto Sparky

Very hard to work in those marshmallow suits.. I would just as soon shut it down.. What is the current wage for someone that is willing to die to avoid someones inconvenience of living without power for an hour or so? Getting electrocuted is a fairly easy, painless way to die. Taking a flash is not.. Work safe out there.. Retire in one piece..


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> I didn't say that I would require them to. However, I know that particular panel can be worked hot safely which is one reason I always spec it out and try to put something that constitutes a continuous industrial process in it so that it is legal to work it hot.



None of the items you have mentioned in other posts are part of a continuous industrial process.

As great as I-Line panels are they are not safe to work hot, there are still exposed live parts and instilling a breaker into one may be safer than ofter panels it is still not safe.

Truthfully I just think you are trolling as few engineers would try to find a way to circumvent the OSHA rules.


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> If you can't work an I-Line panel hot safely I definitely don't want you on any job I'm running. And that includes even where there's no I-Line panels around for miles and everything is shut down.


Why do you assume I would work for you in the first place? :laughing:

I can do a lot of things, but risk my life for you would not be one of them.

I-Lines are nice panels to work on, still they have also no doubt been the source of flash burns and shocks. 

Continue trolling ......... :laughing:


----------



## Shorty Circuit

BBQ said:


> Why do you assume I would work for you in the first place? :laughing:
> 
> I can do a lot of things, but risk my life for you would not be one of them.
> 
> I-Lines are nice panels to work on, still they have also no doubt been the source of flash burns and shocks.
> 
> Continue trolling ......... :laughing:


It's not like these panels haven't been around for 40 or 50 years. The only exposed live parts are the bus and lugs to other breakers. These could be protected with a hot blanket. I've had electricians work hundreds of them hot and not one of them ever objected or came close to getting hurt. But then they were trained for that kind of work. All live exposed parts have a risk of arc flash. Frankly I think all electricians whose work is limited to wiring houses and strip malls or have not been specifically trained for hot work would do well to never work anything hot even if it's legal and safe for those who have been trained for it.


----------



## Big John

I've seen arc flashes caused by things completely outside human control.

I've seen arc flashes happen with absolutely zero human interaction.

This idea that "industrial training" mysteriously eliminates all risks associated with energized work is absurd. I have a very hard time believing that a professionally trained engineer would subscribe to such an obviously wrong idea, especially knowing it is in direct violation of OSHA.

I also think you're trolling.

-John


----------



## Shorty Circuit

Big John said:


> I've seen arc flashes caused by things completely outside human control.
> 
> I've seen arc flashes happen with absolutely zero human interaction.
> 
> This idea that "industrial training" mysteriously eliminates all risks associated with energized work is absurd. I have a very hard time believing that a professionally trained engineer would subscribe to such an obviously wrong idea, especially knowing it is in direct violation of OSHA.
> 
> I also think you're trolling.
> 
> -John


"I've seen arc flashes caused by things completely outside human control."

So have I. Every time there is an electrical storm. There is no industrial activity that doesn't entail an element of risk.

" I have a very hard time believing that a professionally trained engineer would subscribe to such an obviously wrong idea, especially knowing it is in direct violation of OSHA."

I do not advocate violating any law or regulation including OSHA. OSHA allows for hot work under certain conditions that I clearly spelled out and referenced. That is that there is what meets the legal definition of "a continuous industrial process" and that it is agreed that the work can be performed safely. I have never asked anyone to perform hot work where they or I felt there was a risk of an accident or injury, not just to the electician but to the facility as well. To pretend that the world started when OSHA came out with its edict and that it wasn't considered safe and legal to perform hot work when qualified electricians performed certain tasks is to deny most of the history of this industry.


----------



## guest

Shorty Circuit said:


> If you can't work an I-Line panel hot safely I definitely don't want you on any job I'm running. And that includes even where there's no I-Line panels around for miles and everything is shut down.


I find it hard to believe ANYONE would work with you.....


Big John said:


> _*If you're requiring people to work anything hot, you have no business running jobs.*_
> 
> -John


Exactly. 



Shorty Circuit said:


> I didn't say that I would require them to. However, I know that particular panel can be worked hot safely which is one reason I always spec it out and try to put something that constitutes a continuous industrial process in it so that it is legal to work it hot. I can play OSHA's game by their rules and still win. I've had to go to more Saturday midnight shutdowns installing feeder breakers for data centers than I care to think about because someone saved a hundred bucks putting in a GE or ITE or Westinghouse panel instead. The world isn't all dual path and one time nothing was.


One of the stupidest arguments ever posted on this forum. 

Do you have documentation from SquareD proving that it is a safe panel to work hot? I seriously doubt it, in fact I'll bet there is a nice label on EVERY I-Line Panel ever made warning of shock or flash hazards and warning the user/electrician to de-energize it before working on it. 

And if you have to do a Saturday night shutdown so what? That's overtime and more money for your business..what's wrong with that? 




jza said:


> I work live as much as possible.


Well you're an idiot and a troll. 



Shorty Circuit said:


> Hey, if you can't handle it, don't do it. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself on my account. I'll just get someone else who can.


Yeah right. 



BBQ said:


> None of the items you have mentioned in other posts are part of a continuous industrial process.
> 
> As great as I-Line panels are _*they are not safe to work hot, there are still exposed live parts and instilling a breaker into one may be safer than ofter panels it is still not safe.*_
> 
> Truthfully I just think you are trolling as few engineers would try to find a way to circumvent the OSHA rules.


Thank you BBQ. :thumbup:



Shorty Circuit said:


> It's not like these panels haven't been around for 40 or 50 years. The only exposed live parts are the bus and lugs to other breakers. These could be protected with a hot blanket. I've had electricians work hundreds of them hot and not one of them ever objected or came close to getting hurt. But then they were trained for that kind of work. All live exposed parts have a risk of arc flash. *Frankly I think all electricians whose work is limited to wiring houses and strip malls or have not been specifically trained for hot work would do well to never work anything hot even if it's legal and safe for those who have been trained for it.*


Oh STFU and crawl back under that rock you came from.


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> So have I. Every time there is an electrical storm. There is no industrial activity that doesn't entail an element of risk.


If you turn the power off to the equipment being worked on the risk of an electrical accident are reduced quite a bit.




> I do not advocate violating any law or regulation including OSHA.


No, you are advocating designing a system so certain rules can be ignored.

That is not any better.



> OSHA allows for hot work under certain conditions that I clearly spelled out and referenced. That is that there is what meets the legal definition of "a continuous industrial process" and that it is agreed that the work can be performed safely.


You keep saying that but you have yet to tell us what loads you place in the panel to meet that definition.

My bet is you cannot. 




> I have never asked anyone to perform hot work where they or I felt there was a risk of an accident or injury, not just to the electician but to the facility as well.


Clearly that is in sharp contradiction to your posts so far.




> To pretend that the world started when OSHA came out with its edict and that it wasn't considered safe and legal to perform hot work when qualified electricians performed certain tasks is to deny most of the history of this industry.


No one is pretending any such thing, you seem to place a lot of faith in the 'we always did it that way' excuse. 

Times change, catch up or step aside.


----------



## Shorty Circuit

So I suppose that for decades when IBEW boasted that they included 3 years of supervised hot work in their 5 year apprenticeship program they had sold out their members or they were just too stupid to realize the risk their members would take performing hot work. And up to the 1990s OSHA was too lax or stupid to recognize it either.

Far more likely that with all of the cost cutting by corporations a lot of unqualified electricians were performing hot work and getting hurt so OSHA tightened up the rules. It's Okay to admit you are not trained to perform hot work, not every electrician is trained for every situation. But just because you aren't doesn't mean that there aren't others out there who can't handle it when it's safe to do.

"No, you are advocating designing a system so certain rules can be ignored"

No I'm advocating designing systems where all of the elements that might require hot work are created to be part of a continuous industrial process and the hardware is accepted as safe to work hot by those experienced with hot work so that hot work can be performed legally. 

"If you turn the power off to the equipment being worked on the risk of an electrical accident are reduced quite a bit."

If you are required to have a shut down to perform every job many jobs might not be done at all because the disruption is too expensive. For those who are qualified to perform hot work this is an unnecessary loss of income and for the owner an unnecessary loss of a new capital asset.

"Do you have documentation from SquareD proving that it is a safe panel to work hot?"

No, why would they supply such documentation? Manufacturers take every CYA opportunity to absolve themselves of liability. That's why for example they ship all CBs with adjustable trip setting at minimum even though it is for those who engineer the installation to figure out what the correct setting is.

So what bothers you guys more, that I express an opinion that's different from yours or that I'm right? Hey, if you weren't trained for it, that's okay, don't sweat it. But don't take work away from those who are.


----------



## user4818

Is anyone taking this guy seriously right now? I hope not. :no:


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> So I suppose that for decades when IBEW boasted that they included 3 years of supervised hot work in their 5 year apprenticeship program they had sold out their members or they were just too stupid to realize the risk their members would take performing hot work. And up to the 1990s OSHA was too lax or stupid to recognize it either.


Is there a point buried in there?

Now the IBEW supports code changes that require disconnecting means on ballasts so they their members do not have to do hot ballast changes. 





> Far more likely that with all of the cost cutting by corporations a lot of unqualified electricians were performing hot work and getting hurt so OSHA tightened up the rules.


More likely record keeping got better and they realized they could prevent a lot of injuries, after all that is their job.



> It's Okay to admit you are not trained to perform hot work, not every electrician is trained for every situation. But just because you aren't doesn't mean that there aren't others out there who can't handle it when it's safe to do.


Many trained people have been killed or injured through no fault of their own. 




> No I'm advocating designing systems where all of the elements that might require hot work are created to be part of a continuous industrial process and the hardware is accepted as safe to work hot by those experienced with hot work so that hot work can be performed legally.


There is little in that statement that is correct.




> If you are required to have a shut down to perform every job many jobs might not be done at all because the disruption is too expensive.


OK, they don't get done. Very simple



> For those who are qualified to perform hot work this is an unnecessary loss of income and for the owner an unnecessary loss of a new capital asset.


To those that may die or spend months in a burn ward the loss of income to the owner is not a consideration.



> "Do you have documentation from SquareD proving that it is a safe panel to work hot?"
> 
> No, why would they supply such documentation? Manufacturers take every CYA opportunity to absolve themselves of liability.


So it is not acceptable to work it hot.

Very simple.



> So what bothers you guys more, that I express an opinion that's different from yours or that I'm right?


You bother me in the same way a clown bothers me, you make me laugh. :thumbsup:




> Hey, if you weren't trained for it, that's okay, don't sweat it. But don't take work away from those who are.


Qualified, not qualified, it is almost always a violation beyond troubleshooting.


----------



## Big John

Shorty Circuit said:


> ...So what bothers you guys more, that I express an opinion that's different from yours or that I'm right...?


What bothers me is your snide condescension. 

Whenever someone says hot work isn't safe, you include all these little remarks about untrained and incapable those guys must be.

I'm trained to work with voltages a heck of a lot higher than you'll ever see in an I-Line panel, but I'm not delusional enough to think this automatically protects me from accident or injury. 

Training is only half the equation, the other half is dumb luck. Your refusal to admit that is what gives you no credibility.

-John


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Is anyone taking this guy seriously right now?


Seriously funny! :laughing:

He is talking out his ......


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> Seriously funny! :laughing:
> 
> He is talking out his ......


I just can't believe you spent the time to refute him point by point. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> I just can't believe you spent the time to refute him point by point. :laughing:


I am board as hell.

The kids and wife are at Chuck E Cheese.


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> I am board as hell.
> 
> The kids and wife are at Chuck E Cheese.


_Bored._ :whistling2:

There's plenty of action here on the forum. :laughing:


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> I've seen arc flashes caused by things completely outside human control.
> 
> I've seen arc flashes happen with absolutely zero human interaction.
> 
> This idea that "industrial training" mysteriously eliminates all risks associated with energized work is absurd. I have a very hard time believing that a professionally trained engineer would subscribe to such an obviously wrong idea, especially knowing it is in direct violation of OSHA.
> 
> I also think you're trolling.
> 
> -John


Do you ever get the feeling you're just talkin' to hear you head rattle? :laughing:
I didn't know that an insulating blanket prevented arc flash! At least they never told me that in NFPA 70E.. Guess you learn something new every day!
:blink:


----------



## Big John

jmsmith said:


> Do you ever get the feeling you're just talkin' to hear you head rattle...?


 Unfortunately, I've gotten that feeling through this whole thread, but the topic has always been a sore point with me and I can't help falling for the troll.

:hang:

-John


----------



## Shorty Circuit

I know a lot of you guys have to rough in two houses a day to make a profit. I understand the jealousy. But I don't feel your pain.

If you can't handle hot work when it's legal and safe then the best argument you can make is that it never is. In that case I don't want you on my jobs. It's okay, there's plenty of work to go around. Nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## user4818

Shorty Circuit said:


> I know a lot of you guys have to rough in two houses a day to make a profit. I understand the jealousy. But I don't feel your pain.
> 
> If you can't handle hot work when it's legal and safe then the best argument you can make is that it never is. In that case I don't want you on my jobs. It's okay, there's plenty of work to go around. Nothing to be ashamed of.


Some people might fall for your troll act, but not here.


----------



## Big John

C'mon, now you're not even trying.

Ah, well. Another name for the "Ignore List."

-John


----------



## user4818

Big John said:


> C'mon, now you're not even trying.
> 
> Ah, well. Another name for the "Ignore List."
> 
> -John


It's far more entertaining if you don't ignore him. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Big John said:


> C'mon, now you're not even trying.


It is sad when a troll looses his edge. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Some people might fall for your troll act, but not here.


:thumbup:

This place is like the Major League of trolling, amateurs burn out quick. :jester:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> _Bored._ :whistling2:


 

Well I can't spell but I did have sex with a beautiful women last night. :thumbsup:


----------



## jmsmith

BTW... Square D is under the same gun as all the others.... They are required to be labeled with the proper arc flash warnings. So go ahead, have the cover off, no boundaries set-up, and no PPE. Let an OSHA official see you working this "safe" panel without so much as a hot work permit.... It won't be your employees or customers' @$$.... IT'LL BE YOURS!!! I just hope you don't experience an arc flash up close and personal... IT AIN'T FUN AND GAMES, I KNOW THIS FROM EXPERIENCE! Have a good day..
-Jim


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> Well I can't spell but I did have sex with a beautiful women last night. :thumbsup:


Ok, you got me there.


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> Unfortunately, I've gotten that feeling through this whole thread, but the topic has always been a sore point with me and I can't help falling for the troll.
> 
> :hang:
> 
> -John


Got ya.... Have a good one... Think I'm just gonna listen a bit!


----------



## Shorty Circuit

Hey lady I know its six degrees outside but if you want me to wire up a circuit for a new receptacle for your freezer I'm going to have to shut power down to the whole house. It'll just be for around five or six hours, nothing to get excited about. Yeah, like that's what you do at your own house too. And if I believed that I'd already own the Brooklyn Bridge.


----------



## BBQ

Shorty Circuit said:


> Hey lady I know its six degrees outside but if you want me to wire up a circuit for a new receptacle for your freezer I'm going to have to shut power down to the whole house. It'll just be for around five or six hours, nothing to get excited about. Yeah, like that's what you do at your own house too. And if I believed that I'd already own the Brooklyn Bridge.


Well, if her house has an I-Line panel I would do it. :laughing:


----------



## jmsmith

Shorty Circuit said:


> I know a lot of you guys have to rough in two houses a day to make a profit. I understand the jealousy. But I don't feel your pain.
> 
> If you can't handle hot work when it's legal and safe then the best argument you can make is that it never is. In that case I don't want you on my jobs. It's okay, there's plenty of work to go around. Nothing to be ashamed of.


You might want to watch yourself... There are a few of us on here that do more than residential... I started out in line work over 30 years ago... I have done heavy industrial, oilfield and offshore work. I learned how to "safely" do bare hand high voltage work. Is that "legal and safe".. NO!
Would I do that today? NO! Would I work live today if I can safely shut-down? NO! I value my life more than that these days... Things happen, it's not IF... it's WHEN. And when does, it will be anything but fun!!! Getting burning copper buckshot scalpeled out from under your skin I no fun.. THAT I CAN GUARANTEE!!!!


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

I remember shorty had everbody just as wound up about a coat of paint on SE cable. This guy is good.


----------



## BBQ

mcclary's electrical said:


> I remember shorty had everbody just as wound up about a coat of paint on SE cable. This guy is good.


But now he is not even trying .......


----------



## user4818

mcclary's electrical said:


> I remember shorty had everbody just as wound up about a coat of paint on SE cable. This guy is good.


Nah, not really, I spotted him 10 miles away.


----------



## Big John

jmsmith said:


> ...Getting burning copper buckshot scalpeled out from under your skin I no fun.. THAT I CAN GUARANTEE!!!!


 Ouch. I've never been there. Closest I've come was I got flash blinded for about an hour and what looked like a good sunburn: I was demoing an ATS where a screwup allowed it to be backfed through one of the loads.

That was a close enough brush for me.

-John


----------



## guest

Big John said:


> _*What bothers me is your snide condescension.
> * _
> Whenever someone says hot work isn't safe, you include all these little remarks about untrained and incapable those guys must be.
> 
> I'm trained to work with voltages a heck of a lot higher than you'll ever see in an I-Line panel, but I'm not delusional enough to think this automatically protects me from accident or injury.
> 
> Training is only half the equation, the other half is dumb luck. _*Your refusal to admit that is what gives you no credibility.*_
> 
> -John


Thank you John!! Spot on. 



jmsmith said:


> BTW... Square D is under the same gun as all the others.... They are required to be labeled with the proper arc flash warnings. So go ahead, have the cover off, no boundaries set-up, and no PPE. Let an OSHA official see you working this "safe" panel without so much as a hot work permit.... It won't be your employees or customers' @$$.... IT'LL BE YOURS!!! _*I just hope you don't experience an arc flash up close and personal... *_IT AIN'T FUN AND GAMES, I KNOW THIS FROM EXPERIENCE! Have a good day..
> -Jim


I'm not gonna put it so politely, I sincerely hope that this smartass shortycircuit takes a full-on arc blast to his smug face and spends the rest of his worthless life in a burn ward. 



Shorty Circuit said:


> Hey lady I know its six degrees outside but if you want me to wire up a circuit for a new receptacle for your freezer I'm going to have to shut power down to the whole house. It'll just be for around five or six hours, nothing to get excited about. Yeah, like that's what you do at your own house too. And if I believed that I'd already own the Brooklyn Bridge.


If you are so dumb that you can't figure out how to add a simple circuit, without having the power off for five or six HOURS then you are really pathetic. The total power off time required for that task would be 30 minutes MAX, less if you know what you're doing. 

GFY.


----------



## jmsmith

mcclary's electrical said:


> I remember shorty had everbody just as wound up about a coat of paint on SE cable. This guy is good.


With me though, there's some buttons that really shouldn't be pushed.... Now of he was sending someone out for a wire stretcher, or maybe a sky hook....
:jester:
Hello Mcclary.....


----------



## user4818

mxslick said:


> Thank you John!! Spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not gonna put it so politely, I sincerely hope that this smartass shortycircuit takes a full-on arc blast to his smug face and spends the rest of his life in a burn ward.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are so dumb that you can't figure out how to add a simple circuit and have the power off for five or six HOURS then you are really pathetic. The total power off time required for that task would be 30 minutes MAX, less if you know what you're doing.
> 
> GFY.


You just got trolled big time.


----------



## guest

Peter D said:


> You just got trolled big time.


Yeah but this one was worth it!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> You just got trolled big time.


But he did DQ it very well. :jester:


----------



## guest

BBQ said:


> But he did DQ it very well. :jester:


I an the king (Queen) of dramatic posts...:thumbup:


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> Ouch. I've never been there. Closest I've come was I got flash blinded for about an hour and what looked like a good sunburn: I was demoing an ATS where a screwup allowed it to be backfed through one of the loads.
> 
> That was a close enough brush for me.
> 
> -John


Had two... One was 480 starter that had carbon tracked across arc chutes. Other was breaker for 13.8 transformer. Unit had shutter failure on the way in.. NO PROBLEM coming back out the hole!


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> But he did DQ it very well. :jester:


:thumbup::thumbup:

He sounded his more normal self with that post. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

mxslick said:


> I an the king (Queen) of dramatic posts...:thumbup:


Someday an Emmy will be yours. :jester:

_'Best Drama Queen Performance in an electrical or ornithological forum'_


----------



## guest

BBQ said:


> Someday an Emmy will be yours. :jester:
> 
> _'Best Drama Queen Performance in an electrical or ornithological forum'_



:laughing::laughing::laughing:

And I'll have you and Peter D to thank for it. :thumbup:


----------



## Big John

jmsmith said:


> ...Other was breaker for 13.8 transformer. Unit had shutter failure on the way in....


 I've always disliked cubicles with metal shutters, because of the possibility of that type of failure. I've never heard of it actually happening, sorry to hear that it has.

-John


----------



## jmsmith

Big John said:


> I've always disliked cubicles with metal shutters, because of the possibility of that type of failure. I've never heard of it actually happening, sorry to hear that it has.
> 
> -John


Part of that should have been on me, and that is why I hate getting this button pushed. When we believe (or for me) that everything is always safe, complacency sets in. When we are so sure of ourselves that we don't hear another out, we tend to cut corners. I knew that there is always a possibility of a problem, but I basically skipped the step of thoroughly inspecting the bay.... I've stabbed these units countless times without a hitch. This is the one where I got in a hurry to forget about what I have always been taught... No one to blame here but ME!!!! God forbid that I would even think of expecting another to do anything hot when it can be shut down... Just sad that he thinks there are others out here that don't know what he's talking about!


----------



## nitro71

Pretty much daily anymore.. Do I like it? Not so much. Is it expected, yeh. Do I need my job, yes.


----------



## Shockdoc

Work live ? I had the liberty to shut off breakers this week and work cold, it made life faster and easier. But if I need to do something hot, I won't hesitate as long as what I'm dealing with is in good repair and safe.


----------



## RIVETER

Shockdoc said:


> Work live ? I had the liberty to shut off breakers this week and work cold, it made life faster and easier. But if I need to do something hot, I won't hesitate as long as what I'm dealing with is in good repair and safe.


How would you know?


----------



## Shockdoc

RIVETER said:


> How would you know?


 Opening a panel cover on a recent install that has no record of issues or problems would not present itself to me as a threat, removing a device that was properly installed with adequate wire lengths also would not present itself as a problem. Encountering workmanship that has Homeowner ,handyman or HI guy instantly raises a red flag threat and normally will get shut down prior to touching. A seasoned electrician should be able to percieve what might be a problem long before an explosion.


----------



## nitro71

Shockdoc said:


> Opening a panel cover on a recent install that has no record of issues or problems would not present itself to me as a threat, removing a device that was properly installed with adequate wire lengths also would not present itself as a problem. Encountering workmanship that has Homeowner ,handyman or HI guy instantly raises a red flag threat and normally will get shut down prior to touching. A seasoned electrician should be able to percieve what might be a problem long before an explosion.


I work a lot of 20 amp circuits live but I'm not fooling myself into thinking it's safe. If you're tired, if something goes wrong such a wire slipping out of a wire nut or any number of things you can have an arc flash or be shocked.


----------



## Toronto Sparky

I'm surprised that any of us survive.. I can remember way back when I wouldn't hesitate to stuff a 100a/600v buss plug into a live 2000 amp bus while working from an aluminum extension ladder.. Of course back then they didn't have any rules saying I couldn't work live and that I couldn't work off a ladder... 

I've seen bus plugs blown across the room because a #10 wire in the splitter shorted out they didn't have HRC fuses in the bus plug. (Even took out the primary fuses on the street.. )


----------



## BBQ

Toronto Sparky said:


> I've seen bus plugs blown across the room because a #10 wire in the splitter shorted out they didn't have HRC fuses in the bus plug. (Even took out the primary fuses on the street.. )


According to some that type of thing only happens to the untrained.


----------



## jmsmith

BBQ said:


> According to some that type of thing only happens to the untrained.


WHAT??? Being trained stops this mess from happening? I need to see someone about some refunds!!!
:blink: :jester:


----------



## Puccagirl

sparky105 said:


> its like getting hit in the head with a bus


I was tried to be more cautious when working on 347v... and never received a shock above 208v. A 208 or 600v shock is probably harder to get since you have to come in contact with two hot wires.

I got my shock when my arm touched two exposed terminals of a motor mag with its cover off.. and it actually left a scar after.

I shorted two 347v lines once too... (600v) even though I tried to be cautious. It was commercial lighting circuits, and I didn't know one of the hots in the flourescent was a separate emergency cct. 

I was an apprentice then, and funny thing was my journeyman tripped the same cct right after me.


----------



## jza

Got hit on 120v tonight, working live.


----------



## user8640521

BBQ said:


> According to some that type of thing only happens to the untrained.


how do you train a bus plug to sit and stay?


----------



## user8640521

Shorty Circuit said:


> So what bothers you guys more, that I express an opinion that's different from yours or that I'm right? Hey, if you weren't trained for it, that's okay, don't sweat it. But don't take work away from those who are.


before i was an electrician, i worked in manufacturing high voltage caps
for two years.

i spent much of that time doing high voltage testing to 30 KVDC, with
a 5 amp fuse feeding it. i did it barehanded, working on a silicone mat,
using tools i had developed myself to allow me to work safely.

no rubber gloves, no arc flash protection, no formal training. never got
shocked. this was in the days before OSHA. i've been an electrician over
30 years. i've worked inside the closest permissible area on 34.5kv, on
2,000 amp bus that couldn't be shut off, 'cause the hydrocracker would
go critical if it dropped. it was an emergency. i've rebuilt a transfer switch
hot in a hospital, that had welded itself in the emergency position, with
patient critical care loads on it, 'cause there was no other way to fix it.

i've been there, and done that, probably a hell of a lot more than you have.
would i do that stuff now? of course not.

what annoys me about you is that you are a blithering idiot.
your ego doesn't have enough dielectric strength to keep you alive.
congratulations. you are ninth on the block list.

idiot.


----------



## TOOL_5150

jza said:


> Got hit on 120v tonight, working live.


Should have held it tighter.


----------



## electriciansandy

Don't work live man! Its just plain stupid, Even if you know what you're doing, accidents do happen.

I just read in this forum about a guy who died from a 9v battery. This should really put electrical safety into perspective!


----------



## Toronto Sparky

BBQ said:


> According to some that type of thing only happens to the untrained.



Trained to work live? If a person thinks they can be trained to work live than it's time to become a plumber..


----------



## Toronto Sparky

Think the best one I ever had was working on a CRT TV that had been unplugged for hours.. ZAP and it hurt.. Short of that I have got hit with 575 numerous times..


----------



## brian john

Toronto Sparky said:


> Trained to work live? If a person thinks they can be trained to work live than it's time to become a plumber..


Tell that to linemen.


----------



## kf5aeo

We work up to 600v live all the time. we work the panels dead to check fuses and such and if thats not the problem, then we have to troubleshoot hot.

Company policy is FR clothing, 1000v rated gloves, hardhat safety glasses and facesheild. 

I have one electrician from chevron pipeline tell us that he prefers good quality leather gloves for hot work up to 600v


----------



## ilikepez




----------



## jza

^ lmao, that's awesome.


----------



## jordan_paul

MDShunk said:


> You're likely to go your whole career without the need to work live.





MDShunk said:


> Yeah, the only thing "live" an apprentice is likely to work with is the extension cord you'll plug your tools into. :thumbsup:





randas said:


> Even if you want to, you wont be allowed to as an apprentice. Most places.


Untrue, untrue and untrue. Month number 3 as a 1st year I was taught how and expected to tie into live circuits, install live breakers, meter live disconnects and fish into live cabinets. I'm definetly not bragging, I don't like working live but when you are in the service industry, in somebody's office, you can't shut down their computers to tie in an extra receptacle. You'll soon be working for Bankrupt Electric if that was your policy 24/7.


----------



## Big John

jordan_paul said:


> ...You'll soon be working for Bankrupt Electric if that was your policy 24/7.


 That's simply not true. There are many large outfits in this country that do not allow their men to work hot.

There are many companies that do not allow any contractors to perform hot work on their property.

I am well aware that many guys do, and well aware there are many companies that look the other way, but that is a choice, not a necessity.

-John


----------



## Zog

jordan_paul said:


> Untrue, untrue and untrue. Month number 3 as a 1st year I was taught how and expected to tie into live circuits, install live breakers, meter live disconnects and fish into live cabinets. I'm definetly not bragging, I don't like working live but when you are in the service industry, in somebody's office, you can't shut down their computers to tie in an extra receptacle. You'll soon be working for Bankrupt Electric if that was your policy 24/7.


Thats what most think when they implemet 70E (CSA) requirements, but in fact you will see a boost in your business when you comply to the regulations:whistling2:, companies do not want the liability on thir hands, IBM got nailed with a mulit million dollar fine for EC's that think like you working on thier property earlier this year, as have many other companies. Your thinking is what will drive a company into bannkruptsy in todays world, not shutting down a computer for a few minutes.


----------



## BBQ

jordan_paul said:


> You'll soon be working for Bankrupt Electric if that was your policy 24/7.


I work for a company with a no hot work policy and they use it as a selling point. We are doing fine.


----------



## sparky970

This is what we do for terming wires in a lighting panel.


----------



## BBQ

brian john said:


> Tell that to linemen.


Apples and oranges, they also have a much higher death rate than we do.


----------



## BBQ

sparky970 said:


> This is what we do for terming wires in a lighting panel.


What OSHA section allows adding circuits to a live panel? Is it troubleshooting? Would shutting that panel down create more of a hazard? Would it interrupt a continuous process?

Not trying to bust your chops but in many cases people believe as long as they were PPE they can work live anytime they want.


----------



## jza

What is a continuous process?


----------



## MDShunk

jza said:


> What is a continuous process?


Something like a machine or motor on a production line. This is the loophole too many people use to get an EEWP signed, and put men at risk for a few hours production of widgets.


----------



## HARRY304E

ilikepez said:


>


That would have been better if they both had a cigarette going...:laughing:


----------



## sparky970

BBQ said:


> What OSHA section allows adding circuits to a live panel? Is it troubleshooting? Would shutting that panel down create more of a hazard? Would it interrupt a continuous process?
> 
> Not trying to bust your chops but in many cases people believe as long as they were PPE they can work live anytime they want.


It is a continuous process for a pulp and paper mill. Shutting the panel down would affect several PLC's and instrumentation.


----------



## MDShunk

sparky970 said:


> It is a continuous process for a pulp and paper mill. Shutting the panel down would affect several PLC's and instrumentation.


Bummer. Unless you're using paper pulp to keep nuclear fuel rods cool (joke), there's no compelling reason you can't rack out your bucket or turn off a breaker to do what you gotta do.


----------



## sparky970

MDShunk said:


> Bummer. Unless you're using paper pulp to keep nuclear fuel rods cool (joke), there's no compelling reason you can't rack out your bucket or turn off a breaker to do what you gotta do.


Agreed, it's all about money. Any constructive options to present this to the customer would be appreciated.


----------



## MDShunk

sparky970 said:


> Agreed, it's all about money. Any constructive options to present this to the customer would be appreciated.


Yeah. Point out to them that it's been illegal for a long time now. Not much else you can do beyond that if the local and the contractor you're pimped out to don't have a no hot work policy.


----------



## Amish Electrician

I am troubled by the way the definition of 'hot work' has expanded.

When they first brought up the concept, I thought it applied to things like service changes, where you knowingly cut into and spliced live wires. That was 'hot work.'

I never considered the following tasks to be 'hot' work:
1) Connecting wires to an 'off' breaker in a live panel;
2) Simply snapping a breaker onto hot busses;
3) Opening a live panel and tracing circuits; or,
4) Replacing a fuse in a disconnect.

Heck, these days it's all 'hot' work, even if the main breaker is off, simply because there are still those wires feeding the main breaker (at least, here in the USA; Canada generally has a partition covering those wires).

Ditto for the 'safe' clothing. When the concept was first introduced, it was enough that you simply avoid wearing 'plastic.' The entire issue came about because of the cheapest avaliable, high-polyester-content work clothing. Ordinary jeans and t-shirts were never the issue. Yet, now, it's not enough that the clothing simply be 'non plastic.'

Heck, it's not enough that the clothing be the stuff proven by welders for a century, or USN-issue "fire resistant" dungarees, or even an ols heavy asbestos coat. Noooo... they want a specific lable on it, defining a particular protective level, according to a new test.

I am beginning to suspect it's not about safety at all.


----------



## Zog

Amish Electrician said:


> I am troubled by the way the definition of 'hot work' has expanded.
> 
> When they first brought up the concept, I thought it applied to things like service changes, where you knowingly cut into and spliced live wires. That was 'hot work.'
> 
> I never considered the following tasks to be 'hot' work:
> 1) Connecting wires to an 'off' breaker in a live panel;


 Only "hot work" if you are within the LAB of exposed energized parts so typically not "hot work" (And therefore allowed) but Arc Flash PPE still required if within the AFB. 


Amish Electrician said:


> 2) Simply snapping a breaker onto hot busses;


 Not hot work per 70E definition


Amish Electrician said:


> 3) Opening a live panel and tracing circuits; or,


 Diagnostic work, allowed, no EEWP required, PPE is required. 


Amish Electrician said:


> 4) Replacing a fuse in a disconnect.


 Again, not hot work per definition is using insulated fuse pullers, however you must comply with OSHA 1910.334 requirements prior to replacing fuses. 



Amish Electrician said:


> Ditto for the 'safe' clothing. When the concept was first introduced, it was enough that you simply avoid wearing 'plastic.'


 Yes, that was the OSHA requirement in 1981, been around for a long time. 



Amish Electrician said:


> The entire issue came about because of the cheapest avaliable, high-polyester-content work clothing. Ordinary jeans and t-shirts were never the issue. Yet, now, it's not enough that the clothing simply be 'non plastic.'


 Wrong, the majority of injuries from arc flash are from clothing ignition, like a T-shirt. Hence the arc rated PPE requirements. 


Amish Electrician said:


> Heck, it's not enough that the clothing be the stuff proven by welders for a century, or USN-issue "fire resistant" dungarees, . Noooo... they want a specific lable on it, defining a particular protective level, according to a new test.


 FR and Arc rated are not the same, and to be protected you need to have clothing that is rated for the arc flash Ei you are exposed to. For example, here is some under rated Nomex coveralls from an arc flash that I was exposed to many years ago, it prevented any mojor burns but as you can see I was lucky. [/quote]




Amish Electrician said:


> or even an ols heavy asbestos coat


 Asbestos coat??:blink:


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## BBQ

> Connecting wires to an 'off' breaker in a live panel;





Zog said:


> Only "hot work" if you are within the LAB of exposed energized parts so typically not "hot work" (And therefore allowed) but Arc Flash PPE still required if within the AFB.
> Not hot work per 70E definition


I am not following you, maybe again in laymens terms

Typically if the branch breaker is off the rest of the panel is live with exposed parts.

How is that hot 'hot work'?


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## Zog

BBQ said:


> I am not following you, maybe again in laymens terms
> 
> Typically if the branch breaker is off the rest of the panel is live with exposed parts.
> 
> How is that hot 'hot work'?


I meant if the main is open and the line side terminals are gaurded.


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## dronai

Zog, were you wearing a sheild over your face ? 

Also, For control wire testing in an MCC cabinet, Am I required to wear the whole suit ? Seems like finger dexterity is going to be a problem.


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## Zog

dronai said:


> Zog, were you wearing a sheild over your face ?


 Nope, just safety glasses, this was in 1998 or so before the 70E was a big deal, lucky I was wearing some PPE, only damage was a melted elastic band on my underwear, minor burn from that. 



dronai said:


> Also, For control wire testing in an MCC cabinet, Am I required to wear the whole suit ? Seems like finger dexterity is going to be a problem.


Depends, assuming 480V MCC, and assuming you are within the limits of the tables (65kA and 2 cycles in this case) if the control wiring is 120V or less you need Class 0 or 00 gloves and HRC 0 arc flash PPE, if the control wiring is >120V you need prper rated gloves and HRC 2 arc flash PPE. Unless an arc flash analysis has been done then you follow the label. 

Work on control circuits with energized electrical conductors
and circuit parts 120 V or below, exposed
0 Y Y (HRC/gloves/insulated tools)
Limit = 65kA @ 0.03 sec (2 cycles)
15" AFB​

Work on control circuits with energized electrical conductors
and circuit parts> 120 V, exposed
2 Y Y
Limit= 65kA @ 0.03 sec
(2 cycles)​20"AFB


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## dronai

I"ll find out tomorrow, we have FR clothing, and I heard there is PPE, (maybe the diver suit) The cabinets are all 480V with 120V control. Fed off a 225A panel. I also have to change control trans fuses, starter coils, and check PLC I/O

Working in gloves is going to be a pain for me.

What does the 2 cycles stand for ?


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## Zog

dronai said:


> Working in gloves is going to be a pain for me.


 Then de-energize 



dronai said:


> What does the 2 cycles stand for ?


 Clearing time of the upstream OCPD, if you don't know what that is then you can't use the tables.


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## dronai

Zog said:


> Then de-energize
> 
> Clearing time of the upstream OCPD, if you don't know what that is then you can't use the tables.


There is a main disco fused in each cabinet. The 225A CB will have this info on it ?


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## Zog

dronai said:


> There is a main disco fused in each cabinet. The 225A CB will have this info on it ?


No, you need to calculate (or ask for)the available fault current and look at the TCC's of the OCPD to find the clearing time for that fault current. This is a main part of what makes someone a "Qualified person" and is part of the training requirements. 

"The decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely"


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## dronai

Zog said:


> No, you need to calculate (or ask for)the available fault current and look at the TCC's of the OCPD to find the clearing time for that fault current. This is a main part of what makes someone a "Qualified person" and is part of the training requirements.
> 
> "The decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely"


I have to go thru a safety training program. I'm not sure of my job duties yet. I was told there was a man for every mechanical part on this system. I may be just a paper pusher, and job task assigner. With an occasional hands on for troubleshooting.


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## Amish Electrician

Yes, Zog, there used to be coats made of asbestos. I might even still have one laying around. Airport fire crews had the ones with the aluminized outer face. Asbestos lends itself quite well to weaving, and there were all manner of pads, blankets, and sleeves made of it.

I will also correct your view regarding the origins of the clothing requirements. It was in the 70's that the fire service - as well publicised by Firehouse magazine - expressed concern over their usual 60/40 work clothes, that they wore under their bunker coats. There were lurid stories of the fabric melting, and sticking to the injured flesh.

A difference between "FR" and arc-flash rated? Only in theory. Courtesy of the various sand-dune insurgencies using IED's, there has been an enormous interest in protective clothing. A great amount of existing clothing (USN dungarees) and other gear has been tested for this use. 

Oddly enough, they're using the same exact test standard as used by the various arc-flash PPE companies. Oddly enough, the USN knew what it was doing, long before the standard was developed. Ordinary green welders' jackets have similarly withstood the tests. I reckon welding 'leathers' will surpass the highest level of flash protection. 

So, despite all the learned speculation as to how 'arc flash' is somehow different from every other sort of fire / flash / blast exposure, the differences are irrelevant - because the same standard is being used by these other fields, and the existing gear is passing.

The 'basic' level of PPE would have me wearing gloves, leathers, glasses, a hard hat and face shield, and flash-rated clothing just to take the cover off a 'live' panel. I just don't see that happening; panel covers are going to need some pretty big handles added to them for gloves to work.

At least, that's what the various charts put out by PPE manufacturers would have you believe.

I don't want to get too far off the topic ... but that 'hot work' definition and the associated PPE expectations have mushroomed way beyond what anyone anticipated. Makes me wonder if 'safety' is really the goal.


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## Zog

Amish Electrician said:


> I will also correct your view regarding the origins of the clothing requirements. It was in the 70's that the fire service - as well publicised by Firehouse magazine - expressed concern over their usual 60/40 work clothes, that they wore under their bunker coats. There were lurid stories of the fabric melting, and sticking to the injured flesh.


 I was refering to the electrical trade and industry standards, this is an electrical forum. 



Amish Electrician said:


> A difference between "FR" and arc-flash rated? Only in theory. Courtesy of the various sand-dune insurgencies using IED's, there has been an enormous interest in protective clothing. A great amount of existing clothing (USN dungarees) and other gear has been tested for this use.


 Many of the treatements used in FR clothing will not withstand the heat from an arc flash, Navy dungarees for example. Different requirements, different test standards



Amish Electrician said:


> Oddly enough, they're using the same exact test standard as used by the various arc-flash PPE companies. Oddly enough, the USN knew what it was doing, long before the standard was developed. Ordinary green welders' jackets have similarly withstood the tests.


 No they won't, I have done testing related to this at KEMA, I attached a photo of the samples we used showing the difference between a nomex welders coverall and a material we were testing for a Canadian company developing some of the first arc rated materials (Both exposed to the same Ei). 



Amish Electrician said:


> I reckon welding 'leathers' will surpass the highest level of flash protection.


 I have also been involved in arc flash testing of leather, and it does have excellent qualities but can't be arc rated due to uncontrollable variables (Moisture, grease, dirt, etc..) Shrinkage is a concern however. 



Amish Electrician said:


> So, despite all the learned speculation as to how 'arc flash' is somehow different from every other sort of fire / flash / blast exposure, the differences are irrelevant - because the same standard is being used by these other fields, and the existing gear is passing.


 FR fabrics are only required to conform to ASTM D6413 and are designed with those requirements in mind, while traditional FR fabrics generally have good ATPV ratings they usually have very low EBT ratings, or in laymans terms, they tend to break open. In order to be Arc rated fabrics have to conform to ASTM F1506 which includes the ASTM D6413 tests AND the arc test rating requirements of ASTM F1959. 



Amish Electrician said:


> The 'basic' level of PPE would have me wearing gloves, leathers, glasses, a hard hat and face shield, and flash-rated clothing just to take the cover off a 'live' panel. I just don't see that happening; panel covers are going to need some pretty big handles added to them for gloves to work.


 In many cases removing a panel cover is HRC 0 or 1, and when an arc flash analysis is done you will often find the Ei is <1.2cal/cm2, you just have to understand the requirements. 



Amish Electrician said:


> At least, that's what the various charts put out by PPE manufacturers would have you believe.


 Most of the charts are misleading and are designed to make users think they need more PPE than they really do, hence the reason PPE manufactures hand them out. 



Amish Electrician said:


> I don't want to get too far off the topic ... but that 'hot work' definition and the associated PPE expectations have mushroomed way beyond what anyone anticipated. Makes me wonder if 'safety' is really the goal.


Not really, but if you get your info and training from a company that sells PPE you should expect them to have sales as thier motive.


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## Wirenuting

Amish Electrician said:


> A difference between "FR" and arc-flash rated? Only in theory. Courtesy of the various sand-dune insurgencies using IED's, there has been an enormous interest in protective clothing. A great amount of existing clothing (USN dungarees) and other gear has been tested for this use.
> 
> Oddly enough, they're using the same exact test standard as used by the various arc-flash PPE companies. Oddly enough, the USN knew what it was doing, long before the standard was developed.
> 
> 
> .


I was in when those FR dungarees were issued. We tested them and they sucked. They were uncomfortable and lost all their FR properties after 3 washes. We were never to iron them but were order to iron them so we didnt have wrinkles. 
We tied a line to them and tossed them over the side to clean them. Makes for a softer uniform.
They were developed to protect us from explosive flash burns and atomic blast flash burns. That was the original concept of them back in the beginning.

It's was all about looking stylish.


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