# the value of today's electrician



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I see it all the time, housekeepers Make 25 hr with then supplying everything, painters make 50. But since we are on the " beware" list, people are scared. I hate it. That why I try to work for people I know, small town. **** advertising, turn in my bill and they pay.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

I think the origanal thread should be moved to *Controversial Talk *and left open so the discussion can continue*....
*


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> So why is it that a job that requires, common sense, an education, training and involves a element of risk pays the same as a housekeeper here on long island and probably in some other areas of the USA. I noticed the predecessor to this thread got locked but we need to find ways to elevate the value of our trade in order to make real money.


Because half of the 2nd-year apprentices thinks they know all they need to and strike out on their own for $20/hour, turning the trade into a commodity.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I see it all the time, housekeepers Make 25 hr with then supplying everything, painters make 50. But since we are on the " beware" list, people are scared. I hate it. That why I try to work for people I know, small town. **** advertising, turn in my bill and they pay.


I can easily flip $25 hr boosting and recycling copper. I pass cards by the dozens. It seems the only good paying customers are repeat customers and referrals from repeat customers. Left to GCs and the tire kicker type customer I'd be making $35 hr using my truck tools and experience.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

dude, compare apples to apples for once.

the housekeeper position you mentioned in the previous thread was in an exclusive neighborhood. I'm sure that you can get well paid for doing electrical work in some of those mansions too.


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

A lot of the work I do is in Southampton. Which is where that housekeeper was making 25$/h. I have 4yrs experience and I'm not coming even close to that. 

Long Island is a messed up place.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A Houseman/Butler is in no way near a housekeeper. There is a big difference.

Paying someone $160k per year is a good scale for a person who completely runs your house and the housekeeping staff. You pay for the loyalty and the years of experience. Few can afford those types of folks..


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

IMO it's not the trade, it's the ass backwards way you Americans run your skilled trades. I make 35$/hour, I can get the same rate pretty much anywhere in Canada, I love how trades are run in the great white north :thumbsup:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> IMO it's not the trade, it's the ass backwards way you Americans run your skilled trades. I make 35$/hour, I can get the same rate pretty much anywhere in Canada, I love how trades are run in the great white north :thumbsup:


Canada has a national standard for skilled trades and ours is a highly regulated area of expertise. It seems that, in the US, beyond a national electrical code it's a ragged mess of licensing and certification.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I have dreamed that in another universe we would be paid like doctors or lawyers (I know some are but it's the exception not the rule). 
I also dream about winning the lottery too but don't play often.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> Canada has a national standard for skilled trades and ours is a highly regulated area of expertise. It seems that, in the US, beyond a national electrical code it's a ragged mess of licensing and certification.


I agree that we have a more organized system. I look forward to learning more of the Southern system in the following comments.

I hope that *THIS* is not forced upon you, like it was in Ontario.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Start a rumour that you're the best but so busy the customers have to wait in line .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The_Modifier said:


> I agree that we have a more organized system. I look forward to learning more of the Southern system in the following comments.
> 
> I hope that *THIS* is not forced upon you, like it was in Ontario.


So you're an example of overbearing bureaucracy, while we _(as 99 states, and we would need to agree)_ are the example of lack of it.

Bureaucracy, or simply put the _'powers that be'_ being a necessary element in the recipe of business 

To the point where to much either way constitutes success OR failure , anarchy OR libertopia....

And so we reduced to mere fleas, riding on that gleaming double edged bureaucratic sword that cuts both ways , with our only influence being whatever collectivist noise we can muster....








~CS~


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I make the same wage that my old man did working for my grandfather in 1981. I mkae average pay for an electrician in NH. That crap is messed up.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> I make the same wage that my old man did working for my grandfather in 1981. I mkae average pay for an electrician in NH. That crap is messed up.


It keeps me in college. As long as I am willing to move I've been offered jobs in instrumentation that pay $35 starting as long as you have experience and a degree.

It's just obscene what they pay electricians given that our job has to be done right or people can die...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The morbidity bone is connected to the authority bone, by way of the legislative ligament and bureaucratic muscle , perfused with public fear and loathing.....









~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My research says a housecleaner in NYC makes between 9 and 15 bucks an hour. It also says a hooker makes between $50,000.00 and $300,000.00 per year. That tells me that it's all in the presentation and how far you are wiling to go to please your customer.


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

99cents said:


> My research says a housecleaner in NYC makes between 9 and 15 bucks an hour. It also says a hooker makes between $50,000.00 and $300,000.00 per year. That tells me that it's all in the presentation and how far you are wiling to go to please your customer.


300,000.00 I need to be a male hooker . The heck with wires and meters . Lol


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

dthurmond said:


> 300,000.00 I need to be a male hooker . The heck with wires and meters . Lol


And it's tax free :laughing:


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

99cents said:


> My research says a housecleaner in NYC makes between 9 and 15 bucks an hour. It also says a hooker makes between $50,000.00 and $300,000.00 per year. That tells me that it's all in the presentation and how far you are wiling to go to please your customer.



NYC is a VERY different place than the Hamptons, were that housekeeper was making 25$/h.

And a hooker in the Hamptons won't make too much in the winter, while a hooker in the city, if not murdered, could make 300k easily.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The_kid said:


> NYC is a VERY different place than the Hamptons, were that housekeeper was making 25$/h.
> 
> And a hooker in the Hamptons won't make too much in the winter, while a hooker in the city, if not murdered, could make 300k easily.


So that tells me you need the right location and the right product mix no matter what business you're in...


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

99cents said:


> So that tells me you need the right location and the right product mix no matter what business you're in...



Exactly. 

But that doesn't change the fact that in New York electricians are for the most part underpaid.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I can easily flip $25 hr boosting and recycling copper. I pass cards by the dozens. It seems the only good paying customers are repeat customers and referrals from repeat customers. Left to GCs and the tire kicker type customer I'd be making $35 hr using my truck tools and experience.


Last house on my street was built about 4 years ago. The electrician worked out of an unmarked Bronco II with bald tires. 

What you're seeing is exactly the same thing I saw 25 years ago. There are no regulations on ECs here which drive them all to run their business the same general way- one experienced electrician per shop or large jobsite and everybody else is a disposable helper. Tons of kids getting jobs as helpers thinking and believing that they'll rise up through the ranks and become the electrician they strive to be. 

Not gonna happen, the math just doesn't work. With no formal training program coupled with no requirement for "apprentice" to "journeyman" ratios within shops or on jobsites, Long Island as well as the rest of NYS is just an endless pool of too many low paid helpers and little to no demand for high skilled, high paid journeymen. 

After topping out (time-wise) most end up either leaving the trade or simply go into business themselves, (usually a 1-man show) realizing that there are no contractors willing to pay a decent wage to a skilled tradesman when they can do so much more with 3 helpers for the same money.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

One guy told me that Electricians are a dime a dozen !


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Thank you to whom ever Unlocked this!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I wish I snapped some pics of some of the winner installations and rewiring that was done after Sandy by helpers being sent out on their own.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

What if all electricians formed an organization exclusively to train and elevate our trade.
This orginization would also strive for better wages, a decent retirement plan and top notch health insurance for all electricians.
What would it take to put something together for ourselves?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

jrannis said:


> What if all electricians formed an organization exclusively to train and elevate our trade.
> This orginization would also strive for better wages, a decent retirement plan and top notch health insurance for all electricians.
> What would it take to put something together for ourselves?


I agree, in addition to one at bettering installs and understating code.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

meadow said:


> I agree, in addition to one at bettering installs and understating code.


Oh that...


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

jrannis said:


> What if all electricians formed an organization exclusively to train and elevate our trade.
> This orginization would also strive for better wages, a decent retirement plan and top notch health insurance for all electricians.
> What would it take to put something together for ourselves?


It's called a Union.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Oh that...


Yes, it helps.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> It's called a Union.


I thought we were supposed to hate unions that benefit working people. 
Did I miss something?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

jrannis said:


> I thought we were supposed to hate unions that benefit working people.
> Did I miss something?


"We"? You got a mouse in your pocket? :laughing:

What I would like to see in my area is like what I experienced in Texas. EVERYONE must have some type of license. 
Apprentice
Journeyman
Masters.

You should have a permit on file just to open a meter socket.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> "We"? You got a mouse in your pocket? :laughing:
> 
> What I would like to see in my area is like what I experienced in Texas. EVERYONE must have some type of license.
> Apprentice
> ...


Honestly, I would love to see that in every single state. It wouldn't stop people from letting uncle Jimbo wire handle their electrical issues though.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> What if all electricians formed an organization exclusively to train and elevate our trade.
> This orginization would also strive for better wages, a decent retirement plan and top notch health insurance for all electricians.
> What would it take to put something together for ourselves?


In theory, this is the Union. 

In reality, it's fairly close, except for the wage part. And around here, training is minimal and evaluation is non-existent.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Last house on my street was built about 4 years ago. The electrician worked out of an unmarked Bronco II with bald tires.
> 
> What you're seeing is exactly the same thing I saw 25 years ago. There are no regulations on ECs here which drive them all to run their business the same general way- one experienced electrician per shop or large jobsite and everybody else is a disposable helper. Tons of kids getting jobs as helpers thinking and believing that they'll rise up through the ranks and become the electrician they strive to be.
> 
> ...


That's everywhere, not just NY. 

When I got out of the army, none of the electrical companies around here would pay someone green anything more than $8.75 hr. Most guys would just lie about their experience, and end up with something like $10 or $11. 

This leads to mass amounts of guys bouncing in and out of electrical work, and also it produces lots of one man shows. Can't blame anybody for what they do, you gotta feed the kids, right?

Small problem in an ocean of bigger problems. Just about every skill/job is dealing with similar situations.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

NC EET said:


> Honestly, I would love to see that in every single state. It wouldn't stop people from letting uncle Jimbo wire handle their electrical issues though.


I agree, to a point........

Having worked for 25 years in a state that doesn't license electricians, and working in other trades in a state where licensing is required, in my experience, overall competency and work ethic is slightly better here in Nevada. 

The prevailing attitude on Oregon (where I worked for about 15 years in just about every trade that exists) seems to be something like 'I have a license, you don't, so you'll just have to accept whatever work I do'. Further, 'if you don't like it, too bad, I have a license.'

In Nevada, every electrician knows that if his work is not up to snuff, he'll be given his walking papers. 

Also, when I moved to Nevada in 1990, wages for electricians were about 30% higher than Oregon. 

My real issue with licenses though is what it takes to get one. 

Every place that licenses electricians requires some sort of apprenticeship which includes many hours of classroom time. While this seems like a good idea, it doesn't recognize natural talent. 

I have never been an apprentice and one of the reasons I left Oregon is because I was pretty sure that I'd get thrown out of class. I don't do well in a structured environment, and I'd bet there are others as well. 

How many guys that would have made excellent electricians decided not to pursue the trade solely because the requirements for licensing were, in their opinion, unreasonable or even idiotic?

I can back license requirements if, and ONLY if, the license is based solely on knowledge and ability and never on # of hours in classroom. 

Sorry for the rant, this is a REAL sore spot for me........


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I wish I snapped some pics of some of the winner installations and rewiring that was done after Sandy by helpers being sent out on their own.


I wish I snapped some pics of some of the winner installations and wiring that was done *before* Sandy by helpers being sent out on their own.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

micromind said:


> I agree, to a point........
> 
> Having worked for 25 years in a state that doesn't license electricians, and working in other trades in a state where licensing is required, in my experience, overall competency and work ethic is slightly better here in Nevada.
> 
> ...


In my opinion the test for a license should include a hands on evaluation, the written test should be a small part multiple choice (20%?) and the rest should be written out answers, and there should be requirements for retaking the exam every time a new NEC is adopted in their state.

Or something along those lines.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Continuing ed on the new code is fine. Let's not make it any more of a burden than it is. Better reciprocity would be helpful and all the stupid local licensing needs to stop. State level or not at all.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> Continuing ed on the new code is fine. Let's not make it any more of a burden than it is. Better reciprocity would be helpful and all the stupid local licensing needs to stop. State level or not at all.


I couldn't agree more. A license should be able to transfer from state to state, with maybe a simple test for the states own requirements.

Possibly a national license that you could get adders for each state you might want to do work in. Think of how effective that could be in a disaster situation. You could have a much larger pool of people capable and ready to perform legal and code compliant installations.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I like those ideas. I hate that there is not a national license...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NC EET said:


> I like those ideas. I hate that there is not a national license...


State-to-state reciprocity is increasing, however.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

480sparky said:


> State-to-state reciprocity is increasing, however.


Really? Will NC see more of it in the near future?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

micromind said:


> I agree, to a point........
> 
> Having worked for 25 years in a state that doesn't license electricians, and working in other trades in a state where licensing is required, in my experience, overall competency and work ethic is slightly better here in Nevada.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree. You're missing the technical and code aspect of this trade. By the time you reach journeyman status, you're knowledge should surpass what you learned in the field.


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

Switched said:


> I couldn't agree more. A license should be able to transfer from state to state, with maybe a simple test for the states own requirements. Possibly a national license that you could get adders for each state you might want to do work in. Think of how effective that could be in a disaster situation. You could have a much larger pool of people capable and ready to perform legal and code compliant installations.


I have a high pressure boiler license and refrigeration license as well as my electrician's license. All are NJ licenses, but I can test for equivalency on the boiler/refrigeration licenses and get them accepted in Pittsburgh (looking to move there in a year or 2). I think national licensing is a good idea, and would like to see it for all the skilled trades.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> "We"? You got a mouse in your pocket? :laughing:
> 
> What I would like to see in my area is like what I experienced in Texas. EVERYONE must have some type of license.
> Apprentice
> ...


That's how it is in Canada. No matter what province you are in, you can't do electrical work without being a journeyman electrician or a registered apprentice, working for a licensed electrical contractor. A journeyman license issued in any province is valid across the country. Even as an apprentice you can freely work anywhere in Canada. All apprentices have to go through 3 to 4 levels of trade school. The local inspection authority doesn't get to decide which version of the code is enforced, the province does.

It's not a perfect system, but it sounds a lot better than what a lot of US states have. The zero-license, zero-anything states seem like a total wild west situation.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> I completely disagree. You're missing the technical and code aspect of this trade. By the time you reach journeyman status, you're knowledge should surpass what you learned in the field.


I'm not tooting my own horn here, but I would pit my knowledge of code as well as technical aspect of the trade against anyone and very likely come out ahead 80% of the time. 

There are people who are naturally talented at various things, and when a license requirement gets in the way of these people applying their natural talent, then those requirements are counterproductive.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> I can easily flip $25 hr boosting and recycling copper. I pass cards by the dozens. It seems the only good paying customers are repeat customers and referrals from repeat customers. Left to GCs and the tire kicker type customer I'd be making $35 hr using my truck tools and experience.


you live on freaking long island...MOVE.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

micromind said:


> I'm not tooting my own horn here, but I would pit my knowledge of code as well as technical aspect of the trade against anyone and very likely come out ahead 80% of the time.
> 
> There are people who are naturally talented at various things, and when a license requirement gets in the way of these people applying their natural talent, then those requirements are counterproductive.


I think that after reading you posts....I am an idiot!:laughing:

But in reality the vast majority of us would do better with the schooling. The issue is that people all learn better in different ways. You have certain gifts and abilities that most of us likely don't.

I for one can read about it all day long, and never retain a thing about it. I have been in this for nearly 20 years, and have trouble remembering code sections. If I see you do something though, I'll never forget it and I'll be pretty spot on with it too. 

It's just funny how different yet similar we all are. :blink:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

meadow said:


> I agree, in addition to one at bettering installs and understating code.


Don't even try that bullchit. There are plenty of code following non union shops. 

This "I'm better than you" attitude, is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM with the union, and it didn't take long for it to show here. Thanks.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I make the same wage that my old man did working for my grandfather in 1981. I mkae average pay for an electrician in NH. That crap is messed up.


So you're making $8 an hour,because that's about what a journeymen made back then.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Don't even try that bullchit. There are plenty of code following non union shops.
> 
> This "I'm better than you" attitude, is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM with the union, and it didn't take long for it to show here. Thanks.


I'm union to the core, mcclary and while I agree with you......I would only like to add that for every non-union shop who is "code compliant" there are two who aren't.

Having said that however......we here on the organized side of things deal with the same issue with the "corner cutting" shops who will go out of the way to find a cheap, _close enough_ method of install. Any union man who tries to tell you any different is lying.

The only advantage that the union shop_ theoretically_ has is that all of the members of the union labor pool are_ supposed_ to be trained and educated to the same standards. Again.....any union man who tries to tell you that this holds true 100% of the time is lying as well. 

While the union has its advantages for some...myself included....it certainly isn't the pinnacle of electrical knowledge that some would have you believe. We have more than our fair share of fly by night, corner cutting contractors and more than enough of the type of sparkies who fit perfectly with those contractors.


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## Sparky48 (Dec 21, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> "We"? You got a mouse in your pocket? :laughing:
> 
> What I would like to see in my area is like what I experienced in Texas. EVERYONE must have some type of license.
> Apprentice
> ...


We have this in MI but the problem is having the inspectors card people when they are at a job. Laws, laws, laws and then they don't uphold them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So a synopsis might be, there is no universal benckmark available pursuant to what qualifies _'electrician'_ 

The usual _'get a leg up on the next guy' _anarchy rears it's ugly head.....:no:

This follows suit with AHJ and HI as well in many localities

That's a recipe for the degradation of the trade, not it's improvement in value.

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

micromind said:


> I'm not tooting my own horn here, but I would pit my knowledge of code as well as technical aspect of the trade against anyone and very likely come out ahead 80% of the time.
> 
> There are people who are naturally talented at various things, and when a license requirement gets in the way of these people applying their natural talent, then those requirements are counterproductive.


Here are our academic requirements to become an electrician apprentice:

Recommended Path - High School Diploma with: English 30-2, Math 30-3, Physics 20 or Chemistry 20 or Science 20.
Minimum Requirements - Successful completion of: English 20-2, Math 20-3, Science 10 or Entrance Exam. 

Upgrading classes are available for those who feel they need them. 

These are not difficult prerequisites for a high school graduate. When I went to school there were guys who struggled a little but everybody made it. If you want it bad enough, you will get it.

I don't see how a lower threshold benefits the trade as a whole.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So a synopsis might be, there is no universal benckmark available pursuant to what qualifies _'electrician'_
> 
> The usual _'get a leg up on the next guy' _anarchy rears it's ugly head.....:no:
> 
> ...


The mass licensing law could be a benchmark, 4 years as a helper 4 years of schooling , test for the license---As electricians we cannot agree on what should be required to gain journeyman electrician status and too many electricians sell themselves short excepting low wages because they do not understand their own value, or are too beat down and will work for jack squat.

We have a one to one ratio here, but too many EC's cheat the system and you can find many jobs where there are only helpers on site, but they rarely get bagged, and when they do they get a slap on the wrist and they're right back out there cheating the system.

The plumbers have a stronger licensing system here, You must have an apprentice license be in a qualified school and be employed by a Master Plumber, if they get bagged cheating the system the fines and punishment is severe to the point that they will revoke your license for using un-licensed apprentices , if you did not take your CE hours they will revoke your license and make you take the test for your highest license level to get it back.

We all wonder why plumbers make more money, well read above they have a system in place that helps keep the wages up.

Now I know I will get nailed to the cross for being in favor of a strict licensing system--well boo hoo.

The choice is very clear, a licensing system keeps the electrical trade a profession, no rules like some want will simply turn the electrical trade into a minimum wage job where the same crowed will say, "working as an electrician was never meant to be a job you can support yourself on, it's simply a job for teenagers--beginners in the workforce on their way to college".

Shields up Mr Scott!:laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

99cents said:


> Here are our academic requirements to become an electrician apprentice:
> 
> Recommended Path - High School Diploma with: English 30-2, Math 30-3, Physics 20 or Chemistry 20 or Science 20.
> Minimum Requirements - Successful completion of: English 20-2, Math 20-3, Science 10 or Entrance Exam.
> ...


It only benefits sleazebag EC's who want free labor and could care less about what happens to the electrical trade as a profession, sure their short term profit will be good until it is found the labor is worth nothing and they loose the best selling point We only hire professional electricians.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> The mass licensing law could be a benchmark, 4 years as a helper 4 years of schooling , test for the license---As electricians we cannot agree on what should be required to gain journeyman electrician status and too many electricians sell themselves short excepting low wages because they do not understand their own value, or are too beat down and will work for jack squat.
> 
> We have a one to one ratio here, but too many EC's cheat the system and you can find many jobs where there are only helpers on site, but they rarely get bagged, and when they do they get a slap on the wrist and they're right back out there cheating the system.
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> It only benefits sleazebag EC's who want free labor and could care less about what happens to the electrical trade as a profession, sure their short term profit will be good until it is found the labor is worth nothing and they loose the best selling point We only hire professional electricians.


I have worked with guys who are lifer apprentices, afraid to attend school, and their trade knowledge suffers because, if they were taught wrong, they continue to do it wrong. They are also the guys who believe in mythical code rules because "that's what I was told".

I would never grant them a license based on trade experience. No matter how much experience they have on the tools, they are still apprentices who never attended formal training.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


I'm glad the doctor I go to is licensed.:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> I'm glad the doctor I go to is licensed.:laughing:


And to think people somehow survived for generations without licensed doctors.  Most doctors today are nothing more than pill pushers. The drug dealer on the street corner is more honorable.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


Wow. My Master's license in one province costs under $200.00 a year to maintain. In another province, it has a one time fee and is good for life.

In other professions, particularly those that are self regulated, licensing fees can be in the thousands.

My license costs $200.00 a year. On a small job, I can get a permit for $160.00 which includes two inspections by a government certified inspector. If you consider that money tax, I am getting extremely high value in return and I am very happy to pay it.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


Yeah a better living than you would otherwise make without the licensing system.

Here is how it would work:

Hire green helpers for $12 an hour and promise them they will be making $35 an hour after 5 years in the trade, but you use all those green helpers to blow out this years work load, fire them all at the end of the year, and get the next crop of green helpers for next year, so that is where the trade will go and the right to make a living working as an electrician goes right down the toilet. flood the trade with labor because there are no requirements and you will probably do better scrubbing out porta Johns at construction jobs.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> And to think people somehow survived for generations without licensed doctors.  Most doctors today are nothing more than pill pushers. The drug dealer on the street corner is more honorable.


As a heart attack survivor, I can tell you that your statement is complete bull ****.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Yeah a better living than you would otherwise make without the licensing system.
> 
> Here is how it would work:
> 
> Hire green helpers for $12 an hour and promise them they will be making $35 an hour after 5 years in the trade, but you use all those green helpers to blow out this years work load, fire them all at the end of the year, and get the next crop of green helpers for next year, so that is where the trade will go and the right to make a living working as an electrician goes right down the toilet. flood the trade with labor because there are no requirements and you will probably do better scrubbing out porta Johns at construction jobs.


How's the licensing system working out for you in Mass.? It's stopping all the hack and unlicensed work, right? :no:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> As a heart attack survivor, I can tell you that your statement is complete bull ****.


Thankfully I don't care what you think about my statement. :thumbup:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hey Shunk, are you lurking? I could really use some backup right now. :jester:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Thankfully I don't care what you think about my statement. :thumbup:


Because you're getting backed into a corner and don't have a reasonable argument.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> How's the licensing system working out for you in Mass.? It's stopping all the hack and unlicensed work, right? :no:


It helps very well, could there be more enforcement? you bet there could be, and I would gladly pay a higher fee on my licenses if we upped the enforcement to the level the plumbing board does, the plumbing board kicks ass around here.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

99cents said:


> Because you're getting backed into a corner and don't have a reasonable argument.


:boxing::lol::laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> Because you're getting backed into a corner and don't have a reasonable argument.


Not really, I said what I said and I meant what I said. Was that too difficult for you to understand? How did people survive for generations without licensed doctors?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> It helps very well, could there be more enforcement? you bet there could be, and I would gladly pay a higher fee on my licenses if we upped the enforcement to the level the plumbing board does, the plumbing board kicks ass around here.


Once again, you love the government when it helps you out. You're a total hypocrite. Stop posting your stupid rants about how intrusive the government is from now on since you're just as plugged into the system as those people you rail against.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Not really, I said what I said and I meant what I said. Was that too difficult for you to understand? How did people survive for generations without licensed doctors?


Their life spans were half of what it is today...:whistling2:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Not really, I said what I said and I meant what I said. Was that too difficult for you to understand? How did people survive for generations without licensed doctors?


You should look into what was considered "medical treatment" and the mortality rates from centuries past. 

It was nightmarish in some respects.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Not really, I said what I said and I meant what I said. Was that too difficult for you to understand? How did people survive for generations without licensed doctors?


They didn't. I was treated for a heart condition with day surgery. Fifty years ago I would have been dead.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Their life spans were half of what it is today...:whistling2:


They also worked much harder than we do since they didn't have any modern conveniences. :whistling2:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Once again, you love the government when it helps you out. You're a total hypocrite. Stop posting your stupid rants about how intrusive the government is from now on since you're just as plugged into the system as those people you rail against.


That's right a total hypocrite you're truly are brilliant:laughing:


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Thankfully I don't care what you think about my statement. :thumbup:


You cared enough to respond.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> They also worked much harder than we do since they didn't have any modern conveniences. :whistling2:


Working harder has nothing to do with your life span, if anything working harder keeps you in better shape than our flabby selves


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> So you're making $8 an hour,because that's about what a journeymen made back then.


Not for my Grampas company they didnt. Low $20s


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC EET said:


> You should look into what was considered "medical treatment" and the mortality rates from centuries past.
> 
> It was nightmarish in some respects.


I'm well aware of that. And we haven't advanced much when so-called "doctors" butcher babies in their mother's womb.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Back in it's past , the IAEI was seen as a benchmark, much like the ASE certs were for mechanics.

I was a certified member for quite a spell, until i realized they were more a place to drink and high five each other locally, as well as worse suckups than the NEC on a national level

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> That's right a total hypocrite you're truly are brilliant:laughing:


You just admitted you would pay more for enforcement (translation: more government workers.) Yet everyone knows you start several threads a week warning us about the big, bad, bloated government coming to get us. 

You're a hypocrite, plain and simple.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm well aware of that. And we haven't advanced much when so-called "doctors" butcher babies in their mother's womb.


Really? You're trying to turn this into an abortion thread?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Really? You're trying to turn this into an abortion thread?


Someone already brought up the invalid comparison of doctor licensing to electrician licensing, so why not take it further off course?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I'm well aware of that. And we haven't advanced much when so-called "doctors" butcher babies in their mother's womb.


....and the public safety is compromised by so called "electricians" who are too frightened to lay their credentials on the line.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Not for my Grampas company they didnt. Low $20s


That's more than double the average wage paid at that time.

Also$46,000 married the federal tax rate in 1981 was 49% if you were single it was 55%...

So he was not taking home as much as you are today.

Look on page 8

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf

.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> You just admitted you would pay more for enforcement (translation: more government workers.) Yet everyone knows you start several threads a week warning us about the big, bad, bloated government coming to get us.
> 
> You're a hypocrite, plain and simple.


I choose my fights wisely, you should do the same:laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Working harder has nothing to do with your life span,



Is anyone else going to call out Harry for this blatant lie?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> I choose my fights wisely, you should do the same:laughing:


In other words, you're a hypocrite. Got it. :thumbsup:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Someone already brought up the invalid comparison of doctor licensing to electrician licensing, so why not take it further off course?


You're simply creating a tangent here because you're getting beat at the topic being discussed.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Someone already brought up the invalid comparison of doctor licensing to electrician licensing, so why not take it further off course?


It is not invalid at all, but you want doctors to be licensed so that makes you a total hypocrite :laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> You're simply creating a tangent here because you're getting beat at the topic being discussed.


Ouch, you got me.

The tangent was created by someone else who brought up doctor licensing. There is no comparison between electricians and doctors whatsoever. Once requires more than a decade of college and years of hands on training, while most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Is anyone else going to call out Harry for this blatant *lie*?


There you go, using the word lie to shoot down your opponent because you cannot back up your statement:laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Ouch, you got me.
> 
> The tangent was created by someone else who brought up doctor licensing. There is no comparison between electricians and doctors whatsoever. Once requires more than a decade of college and years of hands on training, while most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less.


Why 4 years?, just get rid of them after 1 and get a new crew of greenies after all this is just a kids job....:whistling2:


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> I'm well aware of that. And we haven't advanced much when so-called "doctors" butcher babies in their mother's womb.


... You see, this is why I can't have real debates on here.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Why 4 years?, just get rid of them after 1 and get a new crew of greenies after all this is just a kids job....:whistling2:


If you actually believed in a free market (which you clearly don't), you would know that cycling through employees every year doesn't make good business sense.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC EET said:


> ... You see, this is why I can't have real debates on here.


Cool. Then don't.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Ouch, you got me.
> 
> The tangent was created by someone else who brought up doctor licensing. There is no comparison between electricians and doctors whatsoever. Once requires more than a decade of college and years of hands on training, while most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less.


I've known quite a few electricians that hold 4 year (or masters) degrees.

So no, that statement doesn't really hold true. Sure, it's true for some, but you cannot say _most. _In fact one of my teachers has a masters degree in Electrical Engineering and he teaches a large portion of the electrician and PLC classes. He worked as an electrician with that masters degree for over 20 years.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Ouch, you got me.
> 
> The tangent was created by someone else who brought up doctor licensing. There is no comparison between electricians and doctors whatsoever. Once requires more than a decade of college and years of hands on training, while most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less.


 Go to the closest urgent-care and ask if anyone is a licensed doctor there and you will find that they are just medical technicians, so the idea of De-professionalizing every occupation is moving up the food chain.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Ouch, you got me.
> 
> The tangent was created by someone else who brought up doctor licensing. There is no comparison between electricians and doctors whatsoever. Once requires more than a decade of college and years of hands on training, while most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less.


Of course you can compare the two. A doctor serves an internship, we serve an apprenticeship. A doctor attends university, we attend college. We don't have the status of a doctor, but we both need a combination of education and experience to attain professional competency. And, by the way, I consider ours' a "profession" once we reach a certain level.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC EET said:


> I've known quite a few electricians that hold 4 year (or masters) degrees.
> 
> So no, that statement doesn't really hold true. Sure, it's true for some, but you cannot say _most. _In fact one of my teachers has a masters degree in Electrical Engineering and he teaches a large portion of the electrician and PLC classes. He worked as an electrician with that masters degree for over 20 years.



Are you really claiming that "most" who work in the electrical trade have some type of college degree? I'm incredulous if you are.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Go to the closest urgent-care and ask if anyone is a licensed doctor there and you will find that they are just medical technicians, so the idea of De-professionalizing every occupation is moving up the food chain.


And this is always a clear danger in our trade. If we get fragmented into technicians, those who are grandfathered, electricians certified to various voltage classes, etc., then we are on a slippery slope that we could never recover from.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> Of course you can compare the two. A doctor serves an internship, we serve an apprenticeship. A doctor attends university, we attend college. We don't have the status of a doctor, but we both need a combination of education and experience to attain professional competency. And, by the way, I consider ours' a "profession" once we reach a certain level.


Give me a smart and sharp apprentice and I can have him wiring a house within 6 months. There's no way you can do that with a doctor. There's far more that he needs to learn before he's ready. So as I said, invalid comparison.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Are you really claiming that "most" who work in the electrical trade have some type of college degree? I'm incredulous if you are.


Please tell me where I said most who work in the electrical trade have some type of college degree. Oh, that is right, you cannot because I did not say that.

I am simply saying statements like* most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less* are offensive and ignorant.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I really enjoy how all threads become political and religious.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> If you actually believed in a free market (which you clearly don't), you would know that cycling through employees every year doesn't make good business sense.


It's working very well for all the unlicensed trades, hardley any of the tradesmen out there make it 5 years in the field.

You are advocating De-professionalizing your own trade when in fact your pay just about doubled when you got your journeymen ticket, and if it did not then it was you that did not go get it.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are you really claiming that "most" who work in the electrical trade have some type of college degree? I'm incredulous if you are.


No but I will give you an example. We have a very strong Electrical Contractors Association here. They offer a program to become a Professional Electrical Contractor. It isn't an easy program and takes commitment to achieve. I think they deserve the title of "Professional".


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC EET said:


> Please tell me where I said most who work in the electrical trade have some type of college degree. Oh, that is right, you cannot because I did not say that.
> 
> I am simply saying statements like* most electricians barely scraped through high school and can learn the trade in 4 years or less* are offensive and ignorant.


I stand by what I said. You can be offended all you want.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Give me a smart and sharp apprentice and I can have him wiring a house within 6 months. There's no way you can do that with a doctor. There's far more that he needs to learn before he's ready. So as I said, invalid comparison.


A guy who can wire a house isn't an electrician, he's a guy who can wire a house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> It's working very well for all the unlicensed trades, hardley any of the tradesmen out there make it 5 years in the field.
> 
> You are advocating De-professionalizing your own trade when in fact your pay just about doubled when you got your journeymen ticket, and if it did not then it was you that did not go get it.


I'm all for standards and training for electricians. What you don't seem to understand is I don't want the GOVERNMENT involved in that process.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Give me a smart and sharp apprentice and I can have him wiring a house within 6 months. There's no way you can do that with a doctor. There's far more that he needs to learn before he's ready. So as I said, invalid comparison.


No it is not, a sharp smart apprentice will also quickly learn that the electrical trade is a dead end occupation without any rules to give him the upperhand on employers who will beat him down to the point he thinks he worthless or finds another way that will earn him a good living.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm all for standards and training for electricians. What you don't seem to understand is I don't want the GOVERNMENT involved in that process.


So sans gub'mit, who or what would be the glue MT?

~CS~


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I stand by what I said. You can be offended all you want.


Yes because you really want to Drag the electrical trade down to the status of toilet scrubber.:no:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> I stand by what I said. You can be offended all you want.


None taken, however.....

The NEC was originally made pocket sized, as well as worded for HS dropouts.

3-4 generations later , this is no longer so. 

The NEC is more a legal document, the specifics of which are debated down to punctuation. 

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> So sans gub'mit, who or what would be the glue MT?
> 
> ~CS~


Private trade groups like the ABC, IEC or *gasp* the IBEW.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I'm all for standards and training for electricians. What you don't seem to understand is I don't want the GOVERNMENT involved in that process.


A good government program considers input from many industry sectors including us a tradesmen and contractors. It isn't always perfect but it's considerably better than anarchy.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> A guy who can wire a house isn't an electrician, he's a guy who can wire a house.


Those guys are the bane of my career....~CS~


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> None taken, however.....
> 
> The NEC was originally made pocket sized, as well as worded for HS dropouts.
> 
> ...


I think my views on the NEC are in line with yours. I think it's become far too bloated and filled with pointless rules. I'd love to see it go back to a fraction of its original size.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

In my state you'd need to have a license to cut hair, but not wiring a single fam home....

I often wonder if there are stats on hairdoos spontaneously combusting in the middle of the night....:laughing:

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> A guy who can wire a house isn't an electrician, he's a guy who can wire a house.


OK, I get it, you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. At this point, the debating is pointless.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> I think my views on the NEC are in line with yours. I think it's become far too bloated and filled with pointless rules. I'd love to see it go back to a fraction of its original size.


I'm in!

heck, i only KNOW a fraction of it after 30 yrs anyways!....:jester:~CS~:jester:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

My guess is the guys who are against licensing don't have one ;-)
The government or tax isn't much at all. Many people spend more in one night at the bar than it costs to keep your license for another year


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm all for standards and training for electricians. What you don't seem to understand is I don't want the GOVERNMENT involved in that process.


The Govenment is used as a tool by electricians to keep the trade as a profession, leave the electrical trade totally dependent on the free market and you will wind up with a low wage occupation with no standards and the safety of the public in-jeopardy because there will be no standard to follow.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Damn guys! I just woke up and 300 pages full of stuff.......someone touch a nerve!:laughing::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> A good government program considers input from many industry sectors including us a tradesmen and contractors. It isn't always perfect but it's considerably better than anarchy.


There's no such thing as a "good government program". There is a great gulf between my ideology and yours and why we are so far apart on this issue. I'm not in favor of anarchy but I'm not in favor of the nanny state that you are espousing either.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Many people spend more in one night at the bar than it costs to keep your license for another year


Aw C'mon Ed, that's hittin' below the belt! :laughing:~CS~:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Switched said:


> Damn guys! I just woke up and 300 pages full of stuff.......someone touch a nerve!:laughing::laughing:


Well we're all raising our rates by pg 9, so it's worked out Switch....:thumbsup:~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> The Govenment is used as a tool by electricians to keep the trade as a profession, leave the electrical trade totally dependent on the free market and you will wind up with a low wage occupation with no standards and the safety of the public in-jeopardy because there will be no standard to follow.


I don't agree at all, so we'll have to leave it at that. You want the government to hold your hand and I don't. I don't know how these viewpoints can possible be reconciled.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> In my state you'd need to have a license to cut hair, but not wiring a single fam home....
> 
> I often wonder if there are stats on hairdoos spontaneously combusting in the middle of the night....:laughing:
> 
> ~CS~


Let me tell you this:

IF the United States was able to establish a national standard for the trade, you would be one of those guys scrambling to meet minimum standard and your voice in the lobbying effort would not be heard.

Edit-
Sorry chickenman, this comment wasn't meant for you. Heat of the moment  .


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Private trade groups like the ABC, IEC or *gasp* the IBEW.


Yup and all those private trade groups keep the licensing systems in force and defend the licensing system against those who want low wage labor to do everything.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

This site is a joke! This is the 1st thread in months that was going somewhere. Great topic and discussion and it gets derailed by 1 dumb asshole. Where are the mods?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Well, I guess you can't have a debate with a guy who has been completely whipped and decides to leave the room.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Yup and all those private trade groups keep the licensing systems in force and defend the licensing system against those who want low wage labor to do everything.


Not always true, they exist in many states that do not have any statewide licensing at all (PA, NY, etc).


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I don't agree at all, so we'll have to leave it at that. You want the government to hold your hand and I don't. I don't know how these viewpoints can possible be reconciled.


Pete, when you passed the journeymen exam, did your pay go up?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Rochsolid said:


> This site is a joke! This is the 1st thread in months that was going somewhere. Great topic and discussion and it gets derailed by 1 dumb asshole. Where are the mods?


If it's such a joke, you can always leave. :thumbsup:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Not always true, they exist in many states that do not have any statewide licensing at all (PA, NY, etc).


Yes because those state reps stand against any state wide licensing, they simply want wages suppressed.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> This site is a joke! This is the 1st thread in months that was going somewhere. Great topic and discussion and it gets derailed by 1 dumb asshole. Where are the mods?


I think it moderated itself  .


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> Well, I guess you can't have a debate with a guy who has been completely whipped and decides to leave the room.


I've been "whipped" because I don't subscribe to your ideology and I'm not part of the groupthink that's going on now? That's some seriously demented thinking right there. You sound like a typical liberal.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Pete, when you passed the journeymen exam, did your pay go up?


Yes, it did. Now I know what you'll say next, without a license I wouldn't make more than a toilet scrubber.  Sorry, that's not how a free market works. Skilled trades will always command more money than a toilet scrubber, license or not.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Pete, when you passed the journeymen exam, did your pay go up?


And we are waiting for your answer to this question...:whistling2:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I've been "whipped" because I don't subscribe to your ideology and I'm not part of the groupthink that's going on now? That's some seriously demented thinking right there. You sound like a typical liberal.


....


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Yes, it did. Now I know what you'll say next, without a license I wouldn't make more than a toilet scrubber.  Sorry, that's not how a free market works. Skilled trades will always command more money than a toilet scrubber, license or not.


Sorry there too many forces in play that want to re-label this trade as non-skilled, just like they're doing with the urgent-care.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I've been "whipped" because I don't subscribe to your ideology and I'm not part of the groupthink that's going on now? That's some seriously demented thinking right there. You sound like a *typical liberal.*


And this discussion has nothing to do with politics, it does however have to do that we want this trade to be a profession and remain one, the higher we raise the bar, the higher profits we can make as professionals.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Hey guys, no need to worry!

I just made 1 million dollars by sitting in front of my computer. This super hot chick from a website turned me onto this!

Click here for more info!!!!:whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

What say we throw the whole licensure idea in the ocean, and start over with the black belt ranking system

white belt for apprentice , etc etc ....? 








~C_(welcome to the dojo)_S~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Sorry there too many forces in play that want to re-label this trade as non-skilled, just like they're doing with the urgent-care.


And guess what, that's going to happen whether licensing exists or not. Licensing will not do a thing to stop that. It may slow it down for a season, but ultimately it will be powerless to stop it. The very same government that you want to protect you is the same government debasing the middle class.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> And guess what, that's going to happen whether licensing exists or not. Licensing will not do a thing to stop that. It may slow it down for a season, but ultimately it will be powerless to stop it. The very same government that you want to protect you is the same government debasing the middle class.


Funny the system has been in place here for 99 years and electricians in this state still make the wage of a professional and own there own homes and build family's.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> The very same government that you want to protect you is the same government debasing the middle class.


Wha? they don't work for us? :001_huh::no:~CS~:whistling2:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Yes, it did. .


And your wage went up big time, because you became a journeyman allowing your boss to put on another apprentice .


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> And guess what, that's going to happen whether licensing exists or not. Licensing will not do a thing to stop that. It may slow it down for a season, but ultimately it will be powerless to stop it. *The very same government that you want to protect you is the same government debasing the middle class.*


The board of electricians sticks up for us and fights off those forces.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Around here, we are highly regulated. We still have hack artists and handymen but they are not our competition. They are a small part of the market and have little influence on the market as a whole. My competition is legitimate electrical contractors and we, as a group, seem to make a decent buck at it.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> And guess what, that's going to happen whether licensing exists or not. Licensing will not do a thing to stop that. It may slow it down for a season, but ultimately it will be powerless to stop it. The very same government that you want to protect you is the same government debasing the middle class.


You have not experienced the other side but continue to condemn it. Makes no sense.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Now I am leaving this room. This topic has run its course.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

99cents said:


> Now I am leaving this room. This topic has run its course.


I think MTW left for some...:sleep1:


















:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

99cents said:


> Around here, we are highly regulated. We still have hack artists and handymen but they are not our competition. They are a small part of the market and have little influence on the market as a whole. My competition is legitimate electrical contractors and we, as a group, seem to make a decent buck at it.


Excellent point 99:thumbup:


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> I think MTW left for some...:sleep1:


He ran out of ad hominem attacks to support his arguments. :whistling2:


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Some guys like Micromind are an exception, and get there hands in there and dig for knowledge on their own. 

Theory + hands on classroom training should be mandatory, just like for many other professions. 

Licensing give our trade credibility


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

MTW said:


> Is anyone else going to call out Harry for this blatant lie?


Is that you Frunk???:laughing:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

dronai said:


> Some guys like Micromind are an exception, and get there hands in there and dig for knowledge on their own.
> 
> Theory + hands on classroom training should be mandatory, just like for many other professions.
> 
> Licensing give our trade credibility


Yes it does, just think about how much respect Jman from Cali. get in other areas!:whistling2:


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

eddy current said:


> My guess is the guys who are against licensing don't have one ;-)
> The government or tax isn't much at all. Many people spend more in one night at the bar than it costs to keep your license for another year


All too true.


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> Around here, we are highly regulated. We still have hack artists and handymen but they are not our competition. They are a small part of the market and have little influence on the market as a whole. My competition is legitimate electrical contractors and we, as a group, seem to make a decent buck at it.


Agreed and we have actually used it as a marketing tool to educate our clients, even informing them of jail time to repeat offenders generates business.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Switched said:


> Yes it does, just think about how much respect Jman from Cali. get in other areas!:whistling2:


 Nahhh ! Your referring to the JW certification test. That test is only aimed at knowing the NEC. 

I think ABC, and IBEW have good schooling. The Engineering technical program at one of our local colleges offers some good night courses with lab and lecture.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

One more comment - In the heat of the moment, I threw a shot and it hit the wrong guy by mistake.

Sorry, chickenman  .


----------



## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

MTW said:


> Not always true, they exist in many states that do not have any statewide licensing at all (PA, NY, etc).


As a PA resident and an employee of an IEC contractor, I can tell you that there is an emphasis on licensure, even if it is only available at a local level. I can also tell you that, in my experience, those who've bothered to obtain their licenses are generally better electricians than those who haven't. I'm not saying that this is true in every instance, and I have certainly met my fair share of licensed hacks and idiots (as I'm sure everyone here has), but as a general rule, this is true. Oddly enough, I believe it may be the fact that a journeyman license in the Harrisburg area is practically optional, unless you want to contract in the city or work for a company that requires you to be licensed (I have never heard of one that does, though the better ones encourage it), that gives the license it's value; it shows that you are serious enough about your PROFESSION to want to obtain the certifications that are available to you.

Casey Carr
Harrisburg Master Hack #897


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

True that anyone who knows how tests are structured can pass one....

I can remember being so full of myself passing my masters first try _(iirc it's about 1/2 first shot)_ :thumbup:

Being the _cocky_ sort , i opened my doors as an EC :thumbup1:

Having my_ azz handed to me_ many times since has made me rethink that 


:notworthy:~CS~:notworthy:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Arc'n'Spark said:


> As a PA resident and an employee of an IEC contractor, I can tell you that there is an emphasis on licensure, even if it is only available at a local level. I can also tell you that, in my experience, those who've bothered to obtain their licenses are generally better electricians than those who haven't. I'm not saying that this is true in every instance, and I have certainly met my fair share of licensed hacks and idiots (as I'm sure everyone here has), but as a general rule, this is true. Oddly enough, I believe it may be the fact that a journeyman license in the Harrisburg area is practically optional, unless you want to contract in the city or work for a company that requires you to be licensed (I have never heard of one that does, though the better ones encourage it), that gives the license it's value; it shows that you are serious enough about your PROFESSION to want to obtain the certifications that are available to you.
> 
> Casey Carr
> Harrisburg Master Hack #897



_crosspost!_

Ok, as one who has been involved (past howling in the ascii wilderness), where do you see this issue going Casey?

~CS~


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


I agree, local municipalities have made a mockery out of licensing for financial gain and self interest in locking competition out. 
I believe we should be accredited in our qualifications, licensed at a state or national level in whatever stage we are at in this trade.
I consider myself "qualified" in addition to holding a master license.
When incompetence hacks cause fires and electrocutions the public then wakes up to avoid such fly by nights and is willing to pay the right price for the right job.
The NEC is no friend to qualified electricians these days, they are making it easier for less qualified people and hacks to survive in this trade. 
I actually had a business owner friend of mine tell me I need to drop my prices in order to pick up more work......never! As it stands im already making less than I did 14 yrs ago.
Business is slow, not what it used to be and barely enough to fit all the bills.. I need to raise my prices over the quality product I am furnishing to my customers. I often see what they paid for in the past not realizing the hack job they were taken for.


----------



## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

MTW said:


> Is anyone else going to call out Harry for this blatant lie?


I agree with Harry. Have you ever heard of a "good tired"? After a long day of hard satisfying work you feel tired but good. I do not think that working hard is the same as working in dangerous or unhealthy conditions that would negatively impact your health. 

Cheers! 

Jim 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> crosspost!
> 
> Ok, as one who has been involved (past howling in the ascii wilderness), where do you see this issue going Casey?
> 
> ~CS~


I doubt anything will change for PA anytime soon. The current system benefits the municipalities (multiple licenses and license fees to work state-wide), and the state seems content with the $52 it collects biannually from all those who hold a Home Improvement Contractor's license - required for any contractor doing business with home owners.

I, personally, would like to see at least state level journeyman and electrical contractor's licenses in PA. I like the idea of a national license with state endorsements, but am hesitant to put my livelihood in the hands of the federal government, seeing how well they manage the other endeavors with which we've entrusted them.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Really? You're trying to turn this into an abortion thread?


That ship sailed a few posts before MTW mentioned butchered babies... :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> In my state you'd need to have a license to cut hair, but not wiring a single fam home....
> 
> I often wonder if there are stats on hairdoos spontaneously combusting in the middle of the night....:laughing:
> 
> ~CS~


It's a common occurrence on the Jersey Shore. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> The Govenment is used as a tool by electricians to keep the trade as a profession, leave the electrical trade totally dependent on the free market and you will wind up with a low wage occupation with no standards and the safety of the public in-jeopardy because there will be no standard to follow.


 As we've all witnessed in photos on posts showing the hackery typically found in other countries where few to no standards exist. The truth is, lowering standards, licensing or codes, isn't the answer, and will most assuredly lead to more deaths and property destruction.

Amazingly, but not surprisingly this is being advocated by a pro-birther, one who is so vehemently against the termination of the development of an unwanted zygote, yet as usual, apparently couldn't care less what happens to life once departed from the womb...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> There's no such thing as a "good government program".


 Oh sure there is! Millions of hungry children are getting meals thanks to WIC and the food stamp program. Millions of people have affordable housing thanks to section 8. Millions of people commute to work daily on freeways that we all pay to build and maintain, and despite the occasional accident or rubbernecking delay, they're not an anarchistic free-for-all where nobody can get to where they're headed due to licensing laws and our dedicated law enforcement officers.

Retired seniors are getting monthly Social Security checks without fail, and Medicare never fails to address all the medical needs of those seniors, who are most in need for it, necessitated by the fact that the free-market system refuses to provide coverage to those who will need it most.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Rochsolid said:


> This site is a joke! This is the 1st thread in months that was going somewhere. Great topic and discussion and it gets derailed by 1 dumb asshole. Where are the mods?


You should leave then.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

IslandGuy said:


> Oh sure there is! Millions of hungry children are getting meals thanks to WIC and the food stamp program. Millions of people have affordable housing thanks to section 8. Millions of people commute to work daily on freeways that we all pay to build and maintain, and despite the occasional accident or rubbernecking delay, they're not an anarchistic free-for-all where nobody can get to where they're headed due to licensing laws and our dedicated law enforcement officers.
> 
> Retired seniors are getting monthly Social Security checks without fail, and Medicare never fails to address all the medical needs of those seniors, who are most in need for it, necessitated by the fact that the free-market system refuses to provide coverage to those who will need it most.


Wow.....I'll remain on the anarchist team.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well this is an interesting thread fellas. :thumbup:

Everyone wants some sort of benchmark qualifier, most of you seem to want your state to pull it's cranium outta it's large intestine, and it would seem handing it all to the feds is nearly unanimous two thumbs down :whistling2:

So i have to ask , what on a national level kicks this all in the azz other than the feds? :001_huh:

Methinks it would be a grand day when one could cross borders and work in the trade , or guys like Micro are handed some qualifier card to do so.:thumbup:

You'd think that, with all the trade related orgs we have, one of them would have taken up this torch by now

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> It's a common occurrence on the Jersey Shore. :laughing:


my :lol: of the day Island dude

i sense asbestos bikini's on the horizon....:laughing:~CS~


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> Here are our academic requirements to become an electrician apprentice:
> 
> Recommended Path - High School Diploma with: English 30-2, Math 30-3, Physics 20 or Chemistry 20 or Science 20.
> Minimum Requirements - Successful completion of: English 20-2, Math 20-3, Science 10 or Entrance Exam.
> ...


I'm not asking for a lower threshold, or even no licenses, all I'm asking for is for whatever governing body issues licenses to recognize both natural talent as well as knowledge/experience gained through non-official channels. 

Using myself as an example, even with my knowledge and experience, in most jurisdictions, I would not be qualified to sit for the journeymans exam. 

Any system that is this rigid is a bit too communistic for me.........


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> Licensing laws are pointless and idiotic. All they amount to is another hidden tax on business and the population at large, and they do absolutely nothing to guarantee electrical safety or quality work. A license is nothing more than a permission slip (and a tax) from the government that says you can make a living.


In my own personal experience, the quality of workmanship I saw in Oregon (license required) was less then what I saw in Nevada (no license), therefore I agree with the above statement.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Yeah a better living than you would otherwise make without the licensing system.


Again, from my own personal experience, nothing else; 

When I moved from Oregon to Nevada in 1990, the typical wage for a journeyman was about $3-4/hr. higher in Nevada than Oregon.

Of course, there are a multitude of factors that determine a wage rate, but it most certainly was higher in the non-licensed state than the licensed one.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I could easily blather on about how a license is more of a detriment in a constrained myopic system , because i hail_ from one_ Micro.

Lemme tell yas, the only , i repeat_ ONLY _reason i pull permits is this idealistic notion that we have some sort of symbiotic relationship with the _'powers that be'_ , who'll advocate the trade.

That , and $.10 might buy me a cup 'o Joe after 30 years in....

~CS~


----------



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> How's the licensing system working out for you in Mass.? It's stopping all the hack and unlicensed work, right? :no:


I can not speak to Mass but I can speak to NJ, PA and DE
PA as a state has no licensing, but the major cities do, both NJ and DE have state licensing. With that said I see the level of hack work done in all three states, i think the states that are licensed like to tell us that without them we would make no money an unlicensed guys would rule, that is simply not true. 

Anytime I am in NJ all of the inspectors tell me that PA is the wild west because of no licensing but yet I go to Home Depot in NJ and I see scores of people buying electrical panels, wire, breakers etc that are asking the same questions to the HD employee that I see in PA

Pete in my opinion is 100% right licensing is just another tax


----------



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Yes because those state reps stand against any state wide licensing, they simply want wages suppressed.


Harry, that is simply not true, at least in PA
In PA the state license keeps getting voted down because all of the local municipality fight them, in PA all of the local towns get to charge me roughly $100 per town, one year I had 15 "license" from various towns

In PA non state license is nothing but a huge cash cow


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> A good government program considers input from many industry sectors including us a tradesmen and contractors. It isn't always perfect but it's considerably better than anarchy.


This is true, but the key word here is 'good'.

What we presently have is a long ways from 'good'. 

Case in point; AFCIs. It's very obvious to me that the requirement was outright purchased by the manufacturers, input from any other source was largely ignored. 

Same thing with UL listings, the requirement for a UL listing is more of a profit/control issue than safety. 

But yes, if a government program could be developed that would carefully consider all opinions, and only actual fact (not the junk science that's so prevalent these days), then it would indeed work in the best interest of all involved.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> I think my views on the NEC are in line with yours. I think it's become far too bloated and filled with pointless rules. I'd love to see it go back to a fraction of its original size.


Agree completely!!!!


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> Well, I guess you can't have a debate with a guy who has been completely whipped and decides to leave the room.


Sorry, it was getting late yesterday, and a nice warm bed kept calling my name......lol.


----------



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Again, I can only to speak to NJ and Phila license
Both Phila and NJ have classes for you to take before you take the test. 
In both of those classes all they do is go over the test that you are about to take, then you have to go back to the these very classes for so your so called CEU's where it cost me a couple of hundred bucks and a days time


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> Harry, that is simply not true, at least in PA
> In PA the state license keeps getting voted down because all of the local municipality fight them, in PA all of the local towns get to charge me roughly $100 per town, one year I had 15 "license" from various towns
> 
> In PA non state license is nothing but a huge cash cow



15? 

you're yankin' my tail feathers Wiz .....

~CS~


----------



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> 15?
> 
> you're yankin' my tail feathers Wiz .....
> 
> ~CS~


I wish I was, I worked in 15 different municipalities, fees range from $75- $125 but most are $100
None of the jurisdictions will even pro rate the fee, one of them I got in December had to pay the full fee


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> I'm not asking for a lower threshold, or even no licenses, all I'm asking for is for whatever governing body issues licenses to recognize both natural talent as well as knowledge/experience gained through non-official channels.
> 
> Using myself as an example, even with my knowledge and experience, in most jurisdictions, I would not be qualified to sit for the journeymans exam.
> 
> Any system that is this rigid is a bit too communistic for me.........


Our smartest minds are on the streets, on drugs or in prison. The US does not run a system that respects talent or going above course work.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I agree, local municipalities have made a mockery out of licensing for financial gain and self interest in locking competition out.
> I believe we should be accredited in our qualifications, licensed at a state or national level in whatever stage we are at in this trade.
> I consider myself "qualified" in addition to holding a master license.
> When incompetence hacks cause fires and electrocutions the public then wakes up to avoid such fly by nights and is willing to pay the right price for the right job.
> ...


 

Tell me about it


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> I wish I was, I worked in 15 different municipalities, fees range from $75- $125 but most are $100
> None of the jurisdictions will even pro rate the fee, one of them I got in December had to pay the full fee


wow, were's the riots when ya need 'em? ~CS~


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

meadow said:


> Our smartest minds are on the streets, on drugs or in prison. The US does not run a system that respects talent or going above course work.


that would explain why this nation is run by dumb arses who cannot think outside of the box. I couldn't agree with you more....wasn't Einstein, sherlock Holmes and many other famous intelligent people
Cocaine addicts.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

............


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> Our smartest minds are on the streets, on drugs or in prison. The US does not run a system that respects talent or going above course work.


Unfortunately, this is true, and it's getting exponentially worse as time goes on. 

Government fears intelligence, firstly because they have the ability to expose them for what they really are, and second because intelligent people are difficult, if not impossible, to control. 

Government wants every one of us to be stupid enough to do exactly what we're told, without reservation or question. Just blindly obey. 

Where do you suppose that leads?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> that would explain why this nation is run by dumb arses who cannot think outside of the box. I couldn't agree with you more....wasn't Einstein, sherlock Holmes and many other famous intelligent people
> Cocaine addicts.


I don't know about crack addicts, but misunderstood, definitely. But heres the things, some many nations have produced great people, why is it that in the last 30 years we haven't been able to produce a single Einstein?


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

meadow said:


> I don't know about crack addicts, but misunderstood, definitely. But heres the things, some many nations have produced great people, why is it that in the last 30 years we haven't been able to produce a single Einstein?


Never said crackheads, uncle sam operates as a crackhead. But I do know there is substance in all those famous intelligent people and one thing they had in common, cocaine.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> Unfortunately, this is true, and it's getting exponentially worse as time goes on.
> 
> Government fears intelligence, firstly because they have the ability to expose them for what they really are, and second because intelligent people are difficult, if not impossible, to control.
> 
> ...




Impossible to control only because of the lack of respect from government. I am seeing the lack of control arising even from less than smart people these days. The truth is where ever the government sticks its business (like education) it completely sabotages it.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Fock you I won't do what you tell me......in fact I'll do just the complete opposite.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Never said crackheads, uncle sam operates as a crackhead. But I do know there is substance in all those famous intelligent people and one thing they had in common, cocaine.


Sigmund Fraude did advocate it:laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> As we've all witnessed in photos on posts showing the hackery typically found in other countries where few to no standards exist. The truth is, lowering standards, licensing or codes, isn't the answer, and will most assuredly lead to more deaths and property destruction.
> 
> Amazingly, but not surprisingly this is being advocated by a pro-birther, one who is so vehemently against the termination of the development of an unwanted zygote, yet as usual, apparently couldn't care less what happens to life once departed from the womb...


What is an unwanted zygote.?:blink:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> What is an unwanted zygote.?:blink:


I think abortion, but he will have to clarify.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Switched said:


> I think that after reading you posts....I am an idiot!:laughing:
> 
> But in reality the vast majority of us would do better with the schooling. The issue is that people all learn better in different ways. You have certain gifts and abilities that most of us likely don't.
> 
> ...


You're not an idiot at all, you're learning, just like myself and quite a few others around here are. 

And yes, a lot of people do well in a structured learning environment, others do not. 

How much perfectly good talent has our society thrown away because people who cannot learn in a structured classroom are not given the opportunity to learn on their own? Or even worse, the knowledge they've gained on their own is not recognized as valid??


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Well this is an interesting thread fellas. :thumbup:
> 
> Everyone wants some sort of benchmark qualifier, most of you seem to want your state to pull it's cranium outta it's large intestine, and it would seem handing it all to the feds is nearly unanimous two thumbs down :whistling2:
> 
> ...


Are you advocating a private firm create a national license?

How would that prevent the flooding of electrical jobs with untrained low skill workers?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> You're not an idiot at all, you're learning, just like myself and quite a few others around here are.
> 
> And yes, a lot of people do well in a structured learning environment, others do not.
> 
> How much perfectly good talent has our society thrown away because people who cannot learn in a structured classroom are not given the opportunity to learn on their own? Or even worse, the knowledge they've gained on their own is not recognized as valid??


Id say a lot, there is even a booming business in private schools that cater to gifted learners. The catch: it costs money and parents have to agree to it.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> I think abortion, but he will have to clarify.


Yes I know, however I really want to know what he means by "zygote".


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Fock you I won't do what you tell me......in fact I'll do just the complete opposite.


I think this has more to do with the present riots than anything else........

Psychology 101; Oppression Breeds Contempt. 

I think we're seeing the results of many years of an overly oppressive government, and quite possibly the beginnings of the next revolution.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> Are you advocating a private firm create a national license?
> 
> How would that prevent the flooding of electrical jobs with untrained low skill workers?


State of Connecticut has the right idea, not only does the owner need a, license, the employees must be licensed to the degree of where they are at. That would hinder illegal flooding of the trade.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> Wow.....I'll remain on the anarchist team.


I'm no anarchist, but even anarchy is better than the ultra socialism that IslandGuy espouses.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

micromind said:


> You're not an idiot at all, you're learning, just like myself and quite a few others around here are.
> 
> And yes, a lot of people do well in a structured learning environment, others do not.
> 
> How much perfectly good talent has our society thrown away because people who cannot learn in a structured classroom are not given the opportunity to learn on their own? Or even worse, the knowledge they've gained on their own is not recognized as valid??


I hear you completely. There should be alternatives for education, but testing of some sort, hands on or written, proves what one knows and/or doesn't know. The trick would be what sort of testing could really validate?

I personally pulled my children from the public school system for this very reason. We have very creative and active kids....kids...not mental patients that require drugs and are forced to fit inside the box society says they should. We pay good money to ensure that they are shown and taught it is okay to question things, to be different of mind.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> State of Connecticut has the right idea, not only does the owner need a, license, the employees must be licensed to the degree of where they are at. That would hinder illegal flooding of the trade.


I hold a CT license and have lived and worked there. The license is toilet paper just like all government issued trade licenses. CT is overrun with illegals doing trade work just like NY and every state is now.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

micromind said:


> I think this has more to do with the present riots than anything else........
> 
> Psychology 101; Oppression Breeds Contempt.
> 
> I think we're seeing the results of many years of an overly oppressive government, and quite possibly the beginnings of the next revolution.


 they got me mad enough to enjoy inflicting pain their way . I guess being as stupid and ignorant as they are they won't stop until they are completely hated domestically and. Completely abroad.
I have some unfinished business with Nassau county.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I hold a CT license and have lived and worked there. The license is toilet paper just like all government issued trade licenses. CT is overrun with illegals doing trade work just like NY and every state is now.


And over run with GE


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> I'm no anarchist, but even anarchy is better than the ultra socialism that IslandGuy espouses.


No pun to island guy but what you seen here is typical long island ny thinking. After reading that post I felt sick that the society I currently reside in has ingested such a large quantity of kool aid to to buy and believe all the lies handed to them. Long island and NYC have become super liberal, the average residential property tax for a 3 bdrm is $12k a yr to afford all the liberal benefits for our beloved government employees to enjoy.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> And over run with GE


That too. :laughing: Only state I've ever been in where there is only GE and Square D at HD, and the GE takes up two full racks.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> I hold a CT license and have lived and worked there. The license is toilet paper just like all government issued trade licenses. CT is overrun with illegals doing trade work just like NY and every state is now.


My bad, guess they are only interested in collecting fees and not weeding out the imposters.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> That too. :laughing: Only state I've ever been in where there is only GE and Square D at HD, and the GE takes up two full racks.


GE is a monopoly in CT. Every single  building has GE :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> My bad, guess they are only interested in collecting fees and not weeding out the imposters.


Pretty much, all liberal states are like that.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> GE is a monopoly in CT. Every single  building has GE :laughing:


Not to mention that Electrical Wholesalers has their "GE Blitz" every year and they literally bring pallets of breakers and panels into the store to sell.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> That too. :laughing: Only state I've ever been in where there is only GE and Square D at HD, and the GE takes up two full racks.


I'd prefer those two choices better than the long island Murray/BR selection. I can either buy original junk or cherry flavored junk at HD.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> I'd prefer those two choices better than the long island Murray/BR selection. I can either buy original junk or cherry flavored junk at HD.


The only thing I really like about GE is that the copper bus is standard on all their panels. I'm sure that cuts down dramatically on bus failures. The breakers...not so much.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> The only thing I really like about GE is that the copper bus is standard on all their panels. I'm sure that cuts down dramatically on bus failures. The breakers...not so much.


that and the. Quad mains are the only reason I go to Blowes and use GE panels on my jobs. I have been able to upsell QO a few times and brought a couple CH panels from the Poconos.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> The only thing I really like about GE is that the copper bus is standard on all their panels. I'm sure that cuts down dramatically on bus failures. The breakers...not so much.


Not to rain on your parade, but if you ever cut open a GE resi buss bar its so heavily plated that the copper is only half the substance. And the neutral ground bars are straight up AL :no:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> that and the. Quad mains are the only reason I go to Blowes and use GE panels on my jobs. I have been able to upsell QO a few times and brought a couple CH panels from the Poconos.


Why do you like Quad mains? :blink:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

meadow said:


> Why do you like Quad mains? :blink:


less chances of failure. In 25 yrs the ITE quad and GE quad main breakers are the only ones I have never seen fail.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> less chances of failure. In 25 yrs the ITE quad and GE quad main breakers are the only ones I have never seen fail.


What about QO mains?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Switched said:


> I hear you completely. There should be alternatives for education, but testing of some sort, hands on or written, proves what one knows and/or doesn't know. The trick would be what sort of testing could really validate?
> 
> I personally pulled my children from the public school system for this very reason. We have very creative and active kids....kids...not mental patients that require drugs and are forced to fit inside the box society says they should. We pay good money to ensure that they are shown and taught it is okay to question things, to be different of mind.


I agree completely with testing, but yes, how do we make it so only those with actual knowledge pass? I honestly don't know......


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> I'm not asking for a lower threshold, or even no licenses, all I'm asking for is for whatever governing body issues licenses to recognize both natural talent as well as knowledge/experience gained through non-official channels.
> 
> Using myself as an example, even with my knowledge and experience, in most jurisdictions, I would not be qualified to sit for the journeymans exam.
> 
> Any system that is this rigid is a bit too communistic for me.........


In this state the schooling may be waved by the electricians board if you can demonstrate that you have you have the time in, some other way to sit for the exam.

Would they do it? I do not know.

I am no fan of school electrical or otherwise I simply hated it just like you do, that has not changed for me but when I had the choice of being a helper forever and being paid such I made myself go to school 3 nights a week for 2 years. and yes the theory teacher was an asshole.

So I busted my ass to get passed Rigid system that did not care how much time in the field I had, no school not test and no pay, I already had 15 years in the trade, but that did not matter to employers who needed to keep the ratio, so to support my family I had to do the apprenticeship school and sit for the exam 6 weeks later I had the card, told my boss I wanted a raise, he said FU so I walked and had a job a week later at twice the pay.

But I really wanted to go out on my own, so I needed to get the master license to do it---off to take the required schooling again and it was at night 2 nights a week for 150 hours and you have to pass a test to pass the schooling, I took the master exam and here I am.

So if I could do it, regardless of what you think, You can do it too.

Looking way to then, was it easy? nope not at all.....


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> Harry, that is simply not true, at least in PA
> In PA the state license keeps getting voted down because all of the local municipality fight them, in PA all of the local towns get to charge me roughly $100 per town, one year I had 15 "license" from various towns
> 
> In PA non state license is nothing but a huge cash cow


Yes, that is correct however here the state wide license still requires a permit in each town for each job, so they rake it in that way, I do not know if you guys have a permit and inspection system like here.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

meadow said:


> What about QO mains?


They are rare out here but yet to see one fail.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> They are rare out here but yet to see one fail.


To each his own but just keep in mind those GE breakers has much higher defect rates than others. Don't ask how I know :whistling2:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> Unfortunately, this is true, and it's getting exponentially worse as time goes on.
> 
> Government fears intelligence, firstly because they have the ability to expose them for what they really are, and second because intelligent people are difficult, if not impossible, to control.
> 
> Government wants every one of us to be stupid enough to do exactly what we're told, without reservation or question. Just blindly obey.


Agreed.:thumbsup:



micromind said:


> Where do you suppose that leads?


Death camps If we let them.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> How much perfectly good talent has our society thrown away because people who cannot learn in a structured classroom are not given the opportunity to learn on their own? Or even worse, the knowledge they've gained on their own is not recognized as valid??


Wait till you read this:laughing:


I think that Knowledge gained in most Colleges is invalid, because most of the college professors are invalids.....:laughing::thumbup:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Wait till you read this:laughing:
> 
> 
> I think that Knowledge gained in most Colleges is invalid, because most of the college professors are invalids.....:laughing::thumbup:


lol.....true!!

Plus, I haven't seen colleges teach anything other than what they have determined the students need to learn. They are not taught anything resembling common sense, just follow established procedures.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Wait till you read this:laughing:
> 
> 
> I think that Knowledge gained in most Colleges is invalid, because most of the college professors are invalids.....:laughing::thumbup:


College professors spew what corporations tell them too.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> lol.....true!!
> 
> Plus, I haven't seen colleges teach anything other than what they have determined the students need to learn. They are not taught anything resembling common sense, just follow established procedures.


I know right?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Colleges are just like a machinist. Pumping out the cogs for the factory machines, that is all they can do, the task they have been designed for. 

I am not against higher education, when it suits a purpose. But I would bet that 80 to 90% of college graduates really didn't need that education, and their cop out is that "It made me a more rounded person".


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Switched said:


> Colleges are just like a machinist. Pumping out the cogs for the factory machines, that is all they can do, the task they have been designed for.
> 
> I am not against higher education, when it suits a purpose. But I would bet that 80 to 90% of college graduates really didn't need that education, and their cop out is that "It made me a more rounded person".


It has made them broke till their in their 40's the majority at least.

AS a country we must do a better job of educating kids for the workforce and not the joys of collecting welfare and wearing soiled diapers in public as art:laughing:


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

MTW said:


> I don't agree at all, so we'll have to leave it at that. You want the government to hold your hand and I don't. I don't know how these viewpoints can possible be reconciled.


You don't want the government handling NEC or licensing, but are ok with large private organizations doing that exact function. Would it make it better for you if we renamed the government, something like "guidancement," or "definitely-not-gonna-take-your-gun-erment?"

Why do you trust large companies or organizations any more than the government?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

OaklandElec said:


> Why do you trust large companies or organizations any more than the government?


Especially considering one is the other's b*tch....:whistling2:~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Around here, under certain circumstances, you are allowed to challenge the exams. Colleges also offer distance learning for apprentices for code and theory. Class time is then limited to lab. It seems to work.

When I studied for my Master's, I took a correspondence course from the local college. It probably took longer to learn than actual class time but it suited my schedule better. The end result was the same. I got my credentials  .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So it's settled, we're _all _goin' back to school....








~C:jester:S~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So it's settled, we're _all _goin' back to school....
> 
> ~C:jester:S~



Kewl. I can get NASA to do my homework! :laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

OaklandElec said:


> You don't want the government handling NEC or licensing, but are ok with large private organizations doing that exact function. Would it make it better for you if we renamed the government, something like "guidancement," or "definitely-not-gonna-take-your-gun-erment?"
> 
> Why do you trust large companies or organizations any more than the government?


good point....just think of some lib like chuck shummer or Kathleen rice having a say in your license and the codes.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Switched said:


> I am not against higher education, when it suits a purpose. But I would bet that 80 to 90% of college graduates really didn't need that education, and their cop out is that "It made me a more rounded person".


I'm against most college degrees. They cost so much money yet you graduate without a guarantee of a job. I hear too often of engineers that pay 50-60k for college then graduate and remain underemployed for years because they don't have experience.

The reason I picked my 4 year degree is I will graduate debt free and it relates to what I do.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I might be a worthless vagabond in the eyes of the upper crest

But I can sure as hell survive any crisis or build and repair anything using my two hands.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> Around here, under certain circumstances, you are allowed to challenge the exams. Colleges also offer distance learning for apprentices for code and theory. Class time is then limited to lab. It seems to work.
> 
> When I studied for my Master's, I took a correspondence course from the local college. It probably took longer to learn than actual class time but it suited my schedule better. The end result was the same. I got my credentials  .


You can challenge the Canadian red seal as well. (In Ontario) No school required, just proof of work experience. (9000 hrs)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I might be a worthless vagabond in the eyes of the upper crest
> 
> But I can sure as hell survive any crisis or build and repair anything using my two hands.



I prefer *Mr *Vagabond .....

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

OaklandElec said:


> You don't want the government handling NEC or licensing, but are ok with large private organizations doing that exact function. Would it make it better for you if we renamed the government, something like "guidancement," or "definitely-not-gonna-take-your-gun-erment?"
> 
> Why do you trust large companies or organizations any more than the government?


I prefer Dumbassment.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Yes, that is correct however here the state wide license still requires a permit in each town for each job, so they rake it in that way, I do not know if you guys have a permit and inspection system like here.


That is how it is in NJ, but in PA you need Home Improvement number from the Attorney General office, then you pay each individual township their fee, then you get your permit fee and then you pay your inspection fee. Keep in mind most of PA (where I am) is third party inspections
So yes the local towns are raking it in with their so called "license"


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

The value of a fully licensed, experienced electrician is extremely underestimated.

Until something goes wrong! 

Borgi


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

OaklandElec said:


> You don't want the government handling NEC or licensing, but are ok with large private organizations doing that exact function. Would it make it better for you if we renamed the government, something like "guidancement," or "definitely-not-gonna-take-your-gun-erment?"
> 
> Why do you trust large companies or organizations any more than the government?


We don't live in a perfect society and there is no perfect system. I have little trust in large corporations as they have the same globalist agenda that the government does. That said, I don't think private organizations like the IEC and IBEW are bent towards globalism, but I could be wrong.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> That is how it is in NJ, but in PA you need Home Improvement number from the Attorney General office, then you pay each individual township their fee, then you get your permit fee and then you pay your inspection fee. Keep in mind most of PA (where I am) is third party inspections
> So yes the local towns are raking it in with their so called "license"


at least its affordable in PA. Im leaving Nassau county where the town electrical license is good for the outlet I just installed, the county wants a $400 home improvement license to cover the microwave I just hung. I have neither and the job got done right.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Lots of chest-thumping bravado about how it's all wrong... Not much in the way of solutions.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> Lots of chest-thumping bravado about how it's all wrong... Not much in the way of solutions.


There are no solutions. Well there is one ..... But you won't like that one either! 

Relax. Nothing is as serious as we think.

Borgi


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> So why is it that a job that requires, common sense, an education, training and involves a element of risk pays the same as a housekeeper here on long island and probably in some other areas of the USA. I noticed the predecessor to this thread got locked but we need to find ways to elevate the value of our trade in order to make real money.


When a "supposedly" qualified electrician goes to bid a job and in the conversation keeps telling the customer about all of the shortcuts he can take to save the customer money he reduces himself in the eyes of the prospective customer. Just go to the job...bid the job...then leave the job.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Just saved Tuesday's job. Had to throw in a 20 amp circuit to bathroom. Sucks but need the work.


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## amigi968 (May 24, 2008)

I was thinking of this thread today when I saw the current pay schedule of FEAT. That would be our State apprentice training school. A four year apprentice is making .35 less an hour than they were 4 years ago. And that in term determines our journeyman wage, so effectively, the state regulates what we are paid. No wonder every frigging trade is making more than us these days. The painters on my job average $22 an hour! I have four years of schooling and 16 years of OJT and dont make that!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Some states regulate what an apprentices are paid _if they are enrolled in the state apprenticeship program_ . 

This varies state to state, along with the rest of state rules and regs 

~CS~


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

amigi968 said:


> I was thinking of this thread today when I saw the current pay schedule of FEAT. That would be our State apprentice training school. A four year apprentice is making .35 less an hour than they were 4 years ago. And that in term determines our journeyman wage, so effectively, the state regulates what we are paid. No wonder every frigging trade is making more than us these days. The painters on my job average $22 an hour! I have four years of schooling and 16 years of OJT and dont make that!


Time to move.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The manufacturers and insurance companies are making more. They are making the difference in salary that we should be making. Never the less more and more material is being manufactured cheaply and overseas. Wall street can take credit for that. Insurance companies are limiting risk and liabilities by instituting safety, procedure and drug free policies, yet premiums are on the rise. The customer, unless employed by these rackets or are hi society personalities are in the same boat as us, making less and paying more. So do you want the job? I can only afford xxxx dollars..... at this point we make less thus are employees make less. 
The only way to beat it is to beat the system. Cheat them by lying and paying guys off the books.


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## SippinCrown (Oct 6, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> So you're an example of overbearing bureaucracy, while we _(as 99 states, and we would need to agree)_ are the example of lack of it.
> 
> Bureaucracy, or simply put the _'powers that be'_ being a necessary element in the recipe of business
> 
> ...



I don't know if your trolling or serious each time I see your posts


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

There may be light at the end of the tunnel...

“There will be a time when the wealthy among us will be those that are willing to get dirt under their fingernails. AC repair, plumbers, electricians, etc.”

From this article https://www.yahoo.com/diy/young-people-dont-know-how-to-fix-anything-106523138575.html


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Ty Wrapp said:


> There may be light at the end of the tunnel...
> 
> “There will be a time when the wealthy among us will be those that are willing to get dirt under their fingernails. AC repair, plumbers, electricians, etc.”
> 
> From this article https://www.yahoo.com/diy/young-people-dont-know-how-to-fix-anything-106523138575.html


I wish that was true but in the world of technology our talents are being phased out. One can now buy LED light bulbs controlled by an I phone.


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

I recently got laid off and got a part time job that pays almost as much as I started at doing electrical with 10 years experience, its kind of sad.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

SippinCrown said:


> I don't know if your trolling or serious each time I see your posts


I'm accused of _each_, depending on the readers _ability _to decipher metaphoric chickenese Crown....:laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys might just be thinking about this from the wrong perspective.

Most of the guys I know who have made really good money at this business were lousy electricians. It would take them a day to wire an outhouse and, even at that, they would screw it up.

They _hire_ good electricians and spend their working day playing a real life Monopoly game.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

SippinCrown said:


> I don't know if your trolling or serious each time I see your posts


He isn't trolling. Hes saying what needs to be said.


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## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Yup and all those private trade groups keep the licensing systems in force and defend the licensing system against those who want low wage labor to do everything.


Not true BlackDog, when I was a union electrician out of Northern VA, IBEW #26 I believe, at the time (around the late 80's) all the union really cared about was the contractors and making them fat and happy. They really didn't care to much for the employees, not while I was there anyway.


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## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Yes I know, however I really want to know what he means by "zygote".


BlackDog, Here it is



 _A *zygote* (from Greek ζυγωτός zygōtos "joined" or "yoked", from ζυγοῦν zygoun "to join" or "to yoke"), is the initial cell formed when two gamete cells are joined by means of sexual reproduction. *In multicellular organisms, it is the earliest developmental stage of the embryo.*_


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

oh? and i thought it was the last goat species in a long list....~C:jester:S~


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