# Can vs J box/IC vs Non-IC based LED fixtures?



## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Where is the market going in new (and retrofit) recessed residential lighting re the following?

Options for recessed can lighting engines:
- can with built in LED lighting engine (requires trim)
- can with direct connector (requires integrated trim and lighting engine)
- can with screw in fixture for LED bulb (this seems outdated for new coonstruction, or even retrofit, unless it is just the lighting source (bulb) one wants to replace)
- j box with direct connector (integrated engine with heat sink that fits into the j box)
- is there enough heat sink? J box would seem to have about 1/20th base on size
- is there an issue with plastic j box heating up? (not as signifciant with fiberglas)
- what happens in case of overhead insulation when it rests against the top of the j box?

And, related, since LEDs put out so little heat, does the very concept of IC and non-IC have meaning? (I can see the airtite requirement still being significant for infiltration)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I often convince customers to buy a standard recessed can with standard trim and use LED floods. I have also used the integral LED trim with a standard can. It is much more economical then using the cans that must be used with LED


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## duque00 (Sep 11, 2008)

I concur with Dennis. Standard cans work well with the LED Retrofits. Easier to work with. Trims are limited but in most cases you are using white anyway.

As for J-boxes the only LED setup that I've seen is the Commercial Electric stuff from HD and we all know what that is about.

Use the standard cans and all should be good.

Just note - that if the can is in a 2X6 joist instead a 2X8 joist - you're choices are limited. Feel free to ask any more questions here or PM me.

Good luck.


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks ... 

The Halo 4" H995ICAT (plug in wires vice Edison) is pretty widely available (including HD shipped to store about $15) and isn't Chinese (have been told by Halo they are Mexico sourced).

The direct Halo fit is RL460 series (integral light engine, baffle and lens) - supposedly also Mexico sourced with LEDs from a US company - around $60 or so.

What other options would you recommend with the Halo cans?


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## duque00 (Sep 11, 2008)

I rock the h7icat 6" cans from halo. You could use the same for 4" as well. (don't have the model # handy)

Ecosmart (made by Cree - sold at Home Depot) has 2 models 

1) ECO-575L-50k output is 5000k and is about $26 - bright white light - go for dark homes or outside in soffits for security lighting.

2) ECO-575L output is 2700K and is about $24 - incandescent light wannabe - replaces your standard flood bulbs for inside.

Both are rated for wet locations so can be used outside, inside, bathrooms, etc.

Reduce lighting cost by 85%.

Other options include:

Halo RL560WH - 3000k - about $50
Lithonia 6BPMW M4 - 3000k - about $30

Ecosmart are the cheapest and work well. Also I don't know anyone else who offers the complete package with a light output of 5000k.

If someone knows - feel free to share.


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Have to stick with 4" due to customer requirement.

The Ecosmarts are Chinese so have to stay away from them for same reason. "No Chinese." Most everyone likes the Cree light engine and coatings, but I have my orders.

I need to do a 3000K vs 2700K demo - is in a bathroom and there will be vanity lighting in 2700K, but don't know if this will clash with the 3000K recessed lights.

I know 2700 is closest to incandescent, but 3000 looks "almost" the same in the store - under the harsh fluorescent glare


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## duque00 (Sep 11, 2008)

I have to look at the Cree boxes next time at HD. You can try the Lithonia - they might be USA.

You're going to a have a tough time or pay dearly for Made in the USA. Don't get me wrong I am all for it but I can't lose jobs because my LED's are way over price even if American made.

If the guy is a hardass - ask him what TV brand he has. Doesn't matter on the answer - no TV has been made in the USA since 1993.


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Checked out the Lithonia brand already - all Chinese ... only reasonable non-Chinese option I can find (Juno may be US made but are $200 per assembly ... also not crazy about their fully integrate solution) ... all Halo solution gets part way down the path and is about $65 a shot.

He doesn't have an issue with Mexico sourced - something about slave labor, military buildup, nuclear weapons ...


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## duque00 (Sep 11, 2008)

Seems like your screwed without Halo. 

Tease him with the TV question - he can't beat it-- it's made in China, etc. So why is he being a ass-hat to you?


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Went to HD to order since get a small discount that way ... There were only 2 of the cans orderable ...and they could not order any of the RL460 series light/trim assemblies ... "Don't know why ..." ....so much for the Halo solution .... May just tell customer all I can do is to use the Halo 991 series cans with Edison plugs and get some CR4s and call it a day. For some reason the cans are 20 vice 15 for the ones I can't get. Cree 4s at HD are called ECO4-575 ... About 40 bucks ...nets out to 60 bucks an assembly. Mexico cans and Chinese lamps.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I use standard 6" cans for LED jobs and Cree trims. The Cree trims fit both 5 and 6 " cans so everything looks uniform. The only disadvantage is the lighting circuit and lighting count needs to match the max bulb size of the can.


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

So, third option and something I do want to try since it is WAY simple install ...I've been examining another on the shelf item at HD ...a made in Mexico Commercial Electric branded J box based unit with Cree innards. Concern is the heat buildup, however, they may have mitigated this with the all metal, integral trim and container ...the entire thing is metal so there is a lot of surface area. No opportunity for fancy trim, but this install is white, anyway. Duque00, you sounded negative on these ...is it just the look or is your concern with the heat issue ...or, is it the lack of flexibility for future modifications?


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

So, rigged up a deep plastic fixture j box yesterday ...installed the light directly to the fixture ...without the layer of Sheetrock between so had lamp fixture to plastic box contact ...been running for 15 hours ... Trim ring is warm, maybe 100F, box is cool with no real sense of transfer of heat.


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## stephenson (Sep 17, 2010)

Update ... T47 on for three days ... no change in temperature over the extended period. Not sure how this would be considered by inspectors, since installs and behaves as a surface mount fixture ... no issues with J box in an IC situation ...

T47 has very consistent, incandescent looking light. Just as well since isn't available as a 3000K.


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