# How does a person actually make a living as a union apprentice?



## black (Oct 12, 2011)

50% of the apprentices at my local are unemployed. There literally hasn't been any calls through the hall in two weeks, and nothing is coming. At least journeymen can travel. There is an apprentice at the hall who just got evicted. That's pretty bad. Is the apprenticeship just for people who still live with their parents and don't have kids? How are people actually supposed to make this work?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is very hard today for union as well as non union apprentices. As long as the economy stays like this it is a struggle. I would try and pick up some part time work doing whatever you can to make a few bucks in the meantime.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Yea, times can be tough no matter what job/location/etc. When I came in more than 50% of apprentices were at home, some for over 9 months. I've been lucky considering in two years I've finally seen some down time. Also, I'm a homeowner, parent with a child in school and bills to pay. Traveling isn't high on my list of options. There are only a few options. One, sit it out and wait. Two, find a different career path. Three, wait and get out there... Find some side work and stick it out. Or four, go start stripping. Hahaha... Kidding. It's tough being faced with that fork in the road. Heck, it makes you do a lot of soul searching and questioning. If you really love it, hang in there. Best of luck to you.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Yea, times can be tough no matter what job/location/etc. When I came in more than 50% of apprentices were at home, some for over 9 months. I've been lucky considering in two years I've finally seen some down time. Also, I'm a homeowner, parent with a child in school and bills to pay. Traveling isn't high on my list of options. There are only a few options. One, sit it out and wait. Two, find a different career path. Three, wait and get out there... Find some side work and stick it out. Or four, go start stripping. Hahaha... Kidding. It's tough being faced with that fork in the road. Heck, it makes you do a lot of soul searching and questioning. If you really love it, hang in there. Best of luck to you.


WAIT! Stripping is an option?? Why the heck am I twisting wirenuts?


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> WAIT! Stripping is an option?? Why the heck am I twisting wirenuts?


So twisting wirenuts is code for tweaking man boob nipples? Stripping is much different than your definition of playing patty cake with those old farts like you're doing  Like you said, you gotta eat.... Hahaha!


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Just leave the union and go find some work. Is being in the union more important then providing for your family? It wasn't for me and I've been working steady ever since.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Aegis said:


> Just leave the union and go find some work. Is being in the union more important then providing for your family? It wasn't for me and I've been working steady ever since.


That might be an option if there is work in the area - and if you are willing to give up your healthcare insurance, pension etc. I keep getting offers to go non union for less than half of my union rate.

Here in NJ there isn't a lot of work at all for electricians - the non union ones I know are all starving for work, the supply houses are all slow.

On the other hand, with the holiday season coming up, UPS and Fedex are both hiring temp workers, as well as all the major retail chains. Crap work for crap wages.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> That might be an option if there is work in the area - and if you are willing to give up your healthcare insurance, pension etc. I keep getting offers to go non union for less than half of my union rate.
> 
> Here in NJ there isn't a lot of work at all for electricians - the non union ones I know are all starving for work, the supply houses are all slow.
> 
> On the other hand, with the holiday season coming up, UPS and Fedex are both hiring temp workers, as well as all the major retail chains. Crap work for crap wages.


More lies from LGLS . 

Maybe you can work at FedEx I'm way too busy. I just hired another guy. Have fun riding that bench for the Xmas season.......


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> WAIT! Stripping is an option?? Why the heck am I twisting wirenuts?


Have you told your new fake Internet lover about you past flames?

Red Liz 

Electric Avenue

You know you might get some if you log off and go out instead of being trolled by guys pretending to be chicks just to mess with you.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

Aegis said:


> Just leave the union and go find some work. Is being in the union more important then providing for your family? It wasn't for me and I've been working steady ever since.


I'm not going to say I hadn't given that thought at times. Thinking of giving up school, which I really love, keeps me going. I'm halfway done and can't stand not finishing what I've started. Family first, though. Hands down.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

eejack said:


> That might be an option if there is work in the area - and if you are willing to give up your healthcare insurance, pension etc. I keep getting offers to go non union for less than half of my union rate.
> 
> Here in NJ there isn't a lot of work at all for electricians - the non union ones I know are all starving for work, the supply houses are all slow.
> 
> On the other hand, with the holiday season coming up, UPS and Fedex are both hiring temp workers, as well as all the major retail chains. Crap work for crap wages.


:laughing: :laughing: :lol:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Why would any apprentice wish to stick around 50% unemployment , U or non-U ?

you don't accrue hours sitting around

go to the work, instead of waiting for it to be handed to you for gawd sakes 


~CS~


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Why would any apprentice wish to stick around 50% unemployment , U or non-U ?
> 
> you don't accrue hours sitting around
> 
> ...


Everyone has their own reasons. Hours are one thing; paying the bills is another. But yes, go to the work, even if you can't travel. It's out there, but it usually doesn't fall in your lap.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> More lies from LGLS .
> 
> Maybe you can work at FedEx I'm way too busy. I just hired another guy. Have fun riding that bench for the Xmas season.......


Good for you, I'm glad someone is busy in NJ.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

just mho, 

but if you look up _'apprenticeship'_ , the term has gone through quite the evolution. 

it used to mean much more of a two way obligation, not anywhere near as prevelant as it historically once was

seems it's all down to the almighty $$$, with apprentices being the expendable trade fodder

i would , were i still in apprentice shoes, simply seek what work there is out there, and those who would be willing to impart the finer points to me _(or lack of, as one can learn just as quickly from hacks)_ :whistling2:

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

eejack said:


> Good for you, I'm glad someone is busy in NJ.


I'm also out of work in jersey and slowly moving on the list ( local 269 ) . I feel your pain brother ! I had a good run though ! 19 years and never missed a day , until 2012 rolled around . Hang in there man !


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Why would any apprentice wish to stick around 50% unemployment , U or non-U ?
> 
> you don't accrue hours sitting around
> 
> ...


If there is work.

If there isn't work then what?

( why does everyone assume there is work out there? we are at a 12% unemployment rate in construction - and I am sure wages and hours are dropping for those who are working. )


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack

there is zero work for those who sit around

there is work for go-getters that don't

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> eejack
> 
> there is zero work for those who sit around
> 
> ...


12% unemployment. That is around 50,000 electrician jobs nationwide that we don't have anymore.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yanno i taught my dog to _sit_, and eventually _fetch_ eejack...:whistling2:~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

black said:


> 50% of the apprentices at my local are unemployed. There literally hasn't been any calls through the hall in two weeks, and nothing is coming. At least journeymen can travel. There is an apprentice at the hall who just got evicted. That's pretty bad. Is the apprenticeship just for people who still live with their parents and don't have kids? How are people actually supposed to make this work?


Unfortunately , it's not a great time to be starting out in this trade as a union apprentice ! I realize you're half through , but it's still tough . Stay in the local , and try to get another job to supplement your income u tip you get called back to work . The locals used to frown on this , but then again there were never apprentices sitting on the bench either ! Do what you have to to survive .


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

When I started in the trade in 93' , work was plentiful , overtime was always there ( if you wanted it ) and it stayed that way for at least 15 years after that . This is still the worst most of us have ever seen it , but it will come back . The guys who are doing well in this economy are the small shops doing residential / light commercial work . When they actual start building **** again or fixing the failing infrastructure nationwide , you'll be able to write your own ticket ! Until then , you gotta do what you gotta do !


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> When I started in the trade in 93' , work was plentiful , overtime was always there ( if you wanted it ) and it stayed that way for at least 15 years after that . This is still the worst most of us have ever seen it , but it will come back . The guys who are doing well in this economy are the small shops doing residential / light commercial work . When they actual start building **** again or fixing the failing infrastructure nationwide , you'll be able to write your own ticket ! Until then , you gotta do what you gotta do !


'95 was the last time it was this bad. '96 it picked up again. It will pick up again. :thumbsup:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

black said:


> 50% of the apprentices at my local are unemployed. There literally hasn't been any calls through the hall in two weeks, and nothing is coming. At least journeymen can travel. There is an apprentice at the hall who just got evicted. That's pretty bad. Is the apprenticeship just for people who still live with their parents and don't have kids? How are people actually supposed to make this work?


What local? 11 and 441 are diving into book 2 and lower.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

eejack said:


> If there is work.
> 
> If there isn't work then what?
> 
> ( why does everyone assume there is work out there? we are at a 12% unemployment rate in construction - and I am sure wages and hours are dropping for those who are working. )


The over all Unemployment rate is 14.7%U-6 Total unemployed, plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> The over all Unemployment rate is 14.7%U-6 Total unemployed, plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all persons marginally attached to the labor force


Thanks Harry. I wonder what construction looks like adjusted that way since the seasonal rate is currently 7.8 and construction is currently at 12ish. Call it a 4 point difference. 

So real construction unemployment is around 18%?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> yanno i taught my dog to _sit_, and eventually _fetch_ eejack...:whistling2:~CS~


That is good. I'm proud of you.

I have the world's stupidiest bull terrier. They talk about bull terriers being kids in dog suits. No. They are pure stubborn anarchy with an eating/drinking impediment. Some of them are really dumb. Mine is dumb and mostly white, so mostly deaf as well.

He recently tried to pull a futon through the dog door. He tried to play with a ground hog. He is all in a play bow wagging his tail whilst the varmint is shredding the dog's face.

I have to reteach him sit every day because he forgets.

He is currently barking at his tail.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

eejack said:


> Thanks Harry. I wonder what construction looks like adjusted that way since the seasonal rate is currently 7.8 and construction is currently at 12ish. Call it a 4 point difference.
> 
> So real construction unemployment is around 18%?


no, real Romney unemployment is you add em which gives you 19.8
Obama unemplyment you subtract them, which gives you 4.2

and if you work for the government, it can be any number, since they can neither add nor subtract (and get the same number twice)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> now there's a thread metaphor even better than i threw out eejack......:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

wildleg said:


> > no, real Romney unemployment is you add em which gives you 19.8
> > Obama unemplyment you subtract them, which gives you 4.2
> 
> 
> ...


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> When I started in the trade in 93' , work was plentiful , overtime was always there ( if you wanted it ) and it stayed that way for at least 15 years after that . This is still the worst most of us have ever seen it , but it will come back . The guys who are doing well in this economy are the small shops doing residential / light commercial work . When they actual start building **** again or fixing the failing infrastructure nationwide , you'll be able to write your own ticket ! Until then , you gotta do what you gotta do !


All your quotes are spot-on. The quote : " overtime if you wanted it. "
To me, there was no such thing, as not wanting it. Rat-holeing, a few extra bucks is what helped many of us get through the bad times.
Through the many years of working, I probably, only refused about 40 hours a year of overtime.
I always, jokingly say, that I never worked a 40 hour week. :whistling2:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Things are busy in the land of Scott Walker:yes::yes:
I'm just afraid we're going to soon be working in the cold!!


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

retiredsparktech said:


> All your quotes are spot-on. The quote : " overtime if you wanted it. "
> To me, there was no such thing, as not wanting it. Rat-holeing, a few extra bucks is what helped many of us get through the bad times.
> Through the many years of working, I probably, only refused about 40 hours a year of overtime.
> I always, jokingly say, that I never worked a 40 hour week. :whistling2:


I couldn't agree more ! I'll be honest , I never turned down much overtime either , but I would say it was a pretty steady decline from 2004 to present ( no overtime , or straight time , lol ) . Big electrical work will come back big again . I would say sooner than later . You can only neglect things and stop building for so long , before the system starts collapsing . The world will always need electricians , until they make an app for that , lol !


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

black said:


> 50% of the apprentices at my local are unemployed. There literally hasn't been any calls through the hall in two weeks, and nothing is coming. At least journeymen can travel. There is an apprentice at the hall who just got evicted. That's pretty bad. Is the apprenticeship just for people who still live with their parents and don't have kids? How are people actually supposed to make this work?


Who said apprentices can't travel?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> I couldn't agree more ! I'll be honest , I never turned down much overtime either , but I would say it was a pretty steady decline from 2004 to present ( no overtime , or straight time , lol ) . Big electrical work will come back big again . I would say sooner than later . You can only neglect things and stop building for so long , before the system starts collapsing . The world will always need electricians , until they make an app for that , lol !


Bingo.:thumbsup:


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

i am in the middle of my 3rd year, and I have 1300 hours. 

I do not rely on the union for work, money, or really anything other then my insurance. 

I am very lucky I am able to fall back to my prior career, and do very well


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## Hopefulapprentice27 (Jul 9, 2012)

Black I am sorry to hear your difficulties with your apprenticeship. I arguably work in the worst job market in the country(local 58 Detroit) as a 1st punch apprentice. I have worked full time with a good amount of overtime since starting in July. Things seem to be getting better here, hopefully they will for you as well. Giving up good benefits and a pension to go non union is an option but so is finding other part time work at night. I know lots of people including my dad who had to work a second job during his apprenticeship in the early 80's. He's worked full time for 30+ years after getting through the apprenticeship. I'd try to stick it out if I were you. Good luck. 

Joe


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

black said:


> 50% of the apprentices at my local are unemployed. There literally hasn't been any calls through the hall in two weeks, and nothing is coming. At least journeymen can travel. There is an apprentice at the hall who just got evicted. That's pretty bad. Is the apprenticeship just for people who still live with their parents and don't have kids? How are people actually supposed to make this work?


Has the local barred apprentice from working the solar arrays? Local #11 has been having calls on a regular basis putting out even on book 4 (with out a state certification???) Something just does not add up?


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> Has the local barred apprentice from working the solar arrays? Local #11 has been having calls on a regular basis putting out even on book 4 (with out a state certification???) Something just does not add up?


Around here, solar can be done by laborers (well, except the tie-in, but the bulk of it is done by laborers). As such, virtually all of the solar work around here goes nonunion, or goes to laborers.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

mikeh32 said:


> i am in the middle of my 3rd year, and I have 1300 hours.
> 
> I do not rely on the union for work, money, or really anything other then my insurance.
> 
> I am very lucky I am able to fall back to my prior career, and do very well


Good grief, that's only about 520 a year! Holy smokes, people...what on earth is going on?


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

mikeh32 said:


> i am in the middle of my 3rd year, and I have 1300 hours.
> 
> I do not rely on the union for work, money, or really anything other then my insurance.
> 
> I am very lucky I am able to fall back to my prior career, and do very well


Wow.
I was done my field hours before I was out of my 3rd year. But things were a lot different then.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

Another complete week of no calls at our local...


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

black said:


> Another complete week of no calls at our local...


What is your local?


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Find out if your Local will allow Apprentices to travel. It's hard hearing about Apprentices out of work...that goes against everything we're taught here in NYC. Being that Apprentices are classed as Indentured Apprentices...our part of the bargain is to keep them gainfully employed for the tenure of their Apprenticeship. After that, they go into the workforce and are introduced to the "bench". We don't have enough guys from my local traveling...in my opinion. Back when I got my A Card...almost 22 short years ago...I immediately traveled. Ha...mainly because my old man...also one of us...said..."...there's no work...so in September, you'll have a job...". I was like..wow Pop..that's great! (the wait for a job then was over a year) I was like...did you pull some strings??!!??...

LOL he looked me flat in the eye and goes...yeah...you're going to Montana...nuclear power plant..." I go...Montana...the STATE? LOL

He goes...yup...you're not sitting on your ass collecting unemployment and living under my roof. You have an A Card. Use it....

That was it boys and girls...lol..he kicked me out of the nest and traveling was the best damn thing that happened to me!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

black said:


> Another complete week of no calls at our local...


What local?


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

I hesitate to say, since I would like to keep this forum as a place where I can ask dumb apprentice questions .


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Lol that's cool. And refreshingly honest. As an Apprentice Instructor I can tell u without a doubt...there are no dumb questions...there are however some funny as hell questions. So we're here for you.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> Who said apprentices can't travel?


My local, unfortunately


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

black said:


> My local, unfortunately


LU 3 doesn't allow it either.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

black said:


> I hesitate to say, since I would like to keep this forum as a place where I can ask dumb apprentice questions .


there are several locals in So-Cal that are putting out even on book 4 now I realize that 40 will not have enough calls to keep there own hands busy until about April(then they will have some studio work for many) local 18 has some solar work on the agenda but its not now 569 has work that could need tramps one day and be laying off locals the next. I do not know of ANY local in So-Cal that would deprive an apprentice of traveling (if the work was there for them) good luck to you, but its hard to help if we do not know what we are dealing with!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

black said:


> Another complete week of no calls at our local...


Are you actually a union member? You post of labors doing all the solar work I call BS on union jobs! I do not know of any local in California that will not allow its apprentice travel in order to take care of their family,and or earn those precious on the job hours,H&W retirement, assessments, etc. Something just does not sound right???


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## Shak180 (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm a 1st bracket apprentice out of Local 595 and just last week my instructor was talking about how we can travel if our local has no work and there is a local in need of apprentices. At my first dispatch 8 months ago (I worked 6 months prior to starting school) we had traveling apprentices from local 551 in our jurisdiction and my instructor said a few years ago we had Local 3 apprentices working in Local 595.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Shak180 said:


> I'm a 1st bracket apprentice out of Local 595 and just last week my instructor was talking about how we can travel if our local has no work and there is a local in need of apprentices. At my first dispatch 8 months ago (I worked 6 months prior to starting school) we had traveling apprentices from local 551 in our jurisdiction and my instructor said a few years ago we had Local 3 apprentices working in Local 595.



Local 3 Apprentices? I'm sorry he is mistaken. Here in Local 3, Apprentices are guaranteed work for their entire Apprenticeship. There has never been a need for us to allow an Apprentice to work outside our jurisdiction. Local 3 has had this policy of Apprentices guaranteed work since the Great Depression. 

Perhaps he ran into one Apprentice who was given special permission to work outside of NYC due to family issues. But it's VERY rare that would be allowed. As an Apprentice, you have no rights within Local 3. That's why we call it an "indentured apprenticeship". However for a family issue we sometimes bend the rules for an individual.


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## Shak180 (Oct 27, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Local 3 Apprentices? I'm sorry he is mistaken. Here in Local 3, Apprentices are guaranteed work for their entire Apprenticeship. There has never been a need for us to allow an Apprentice to work outside our jurisdiction. Local 3 has had this policy of Apprentices guaranteed work since the Great Depression.
> 
> Perhaps he ran into one Apprentice who was given special permission to work outside of NYC due to family issues. But it's VERY rare that would be allowed. As an Apprentice, you have no rights within Local 3. That's why we call it an "indentured apprenticeship". However for a family issue we sometimes bend the rules for an individual.



My mistake I meant Local 6 not Local 3.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ah. That's ok. We all make mistakes Brother! BTW...welcome to the Forum!


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## Shak180 (Oct 27, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Ah. That's ok. We all make mistakes Brother! BTW...welcome to the Forum!


Thank you.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Shak180 said:


> Thank you.


No worries! If you have any questions..either post here or PM me. 

Good luck!

Steve


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## Shak180 (Oct 27, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> No worries! If you have any questions..either post here or PM me.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Steve



For sure and thanks again.


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## SLATE (Jan 10, 2012)

you should insist upon the board, you must be able to ask for some special permission to travel, especially when theres such a demand in our local 11. Calls getting filled even from bbok 4!

The solar farms in Lancaster everyday have unfilled calls, summer helpers, apprentices and Jws working 10-6s since April!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Really Slate? What's the rate out there?


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## J_Paul771124 (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree it has been hard I just became journeyman and I haven't worked since dec. 2011, and I haven't heard anything from the hall these are hard times hopefully the work scope would look up for the new year


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Just go work private to pay the bills, then when you get the call go back to union.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Just don't get caught doing that. Did you look into traveling J.Paul?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Just don't get caught doing that. Did you look into traveling J.Paul?


I look at it this way , everyone has to do what they have to , to survive . Collecting unemployment and waiting for a call to work from the union doesn't always cut it ! As far as getting caught , it's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission .


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm not saying not to do it. You always have to do what you have to do. I traveled when times were bad, and I'd do it again. It's part of the culture I grew up in in this industry. That isn't the case now a days so much, not just in my Local, but around the country.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> I'm not saying not to do it. You always have to do what you have to do. I traveled when times were bad, and I'd do it again. It's part of the culture I grew up in in this industry. That isn't the case now a days so much, not just in my Local, but around the country.


No , I know that " icefalcon" . A little under the table side work never hurt anyone though . The traveling thing isn't for everybody , but if it means sinking or swimming , we do what we have to do . I never thought at 42 , after working for the same contractor for 19 years , I'd be laid off for the first time in my life . I was very fortunate and knew eventually my time would come , so I'm accepting it the best I can . I move a little each week ( slow but sure ) on the list and am getting very close to a call . As a result of my downtime , I finally got my electrical contractors license , which in all honesty , if I was still working steady , probably wouldn't have done . That was something that I wanted right out of my apprenticeship , but was always working insane hours and never made the time to commit to . I'll be cautiously optimistic in saying , the worst is behind us , and a major building boom , can't be too far behind ! You can only neglect electrical infrastructure for so long before the wheels fall off the train . When that happens , we're all busy !


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Really Slate? What's the rate out there?


$38 on check and $47 in lu440. With what I understand of IO's stance on this issue is to send all that ask out to work only after they have signed a SALT card.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> N*o , I know that " icefalcon" . A little under the table side work never hurt anyone though* . The traveling thing isn't for everybody , but if it means sinking or swimming , we do what we have to do . I never thought at 42 , after working for the same contractor for 19 years , I'd be laid off for the first time in my life . I was very fortunate and knew eventually my time would come , so I'm accepting it the best I can . I move a little each week ( slow but sure ) on the list and am getting very close to a call . *As a result of my downtime , I finally got my electrical contractors license , which in all honesty , if I was still working steady , probably wouldn't have done . That was something that I wanted right out of my apprenticeship , but was always working insane hours and never made the time to commit to . I'll be cautiously optimistic in saying , the worst is behind us , and a major building boom , can't be too far behind ! You can only neglect electrical infrastructure for so long before the wheels fall off the train . When that happens , we're all bus*y !


Sure it does it hurts open shop firms.
It hurts local jurisdictions as side jobbers are working under the table, no permits no taxes.
In the rare case of a fire and the insurance company finds there was unlicensed, un-permitted work completed it could hurt the person the side jobbers did the side work for, no claim.

Side jobbers are not playing by the rules, where as you took the time to be legitimate, these side jobbers can impact a start up worse than an established firm.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> $38 on check and $47 in lu440. With what I understand of IO's stance on this issue is to send all that ask out to work only after they have signed a SALT card.


I heard that too...about the SALT card. For the first time in over a decade Local 3 is down to just over 100 men on the bench. Sandy did a real number on everyone here. Basically all the services in lower Manhattan have to be opened up, checked, busses cleaned, and reassembled. Getting down to 100 in the bench is a huge deal when you have a local with 15,000 Inside Wiremen. To have that kind of employment is monumental, and comes with the cost of our loved ones suffering. 

Anyone notice this year has had a lot of bad stuff happening around the world. I mean..worse than other years?


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> No , I know that " icefalcon" . A little under the table side work never hurt anyone though . The traveling thing isn't for everybody , but if it means sinking or swimming , we do what we have to do . I never thought at 42 , after working for the same contractor for 19 years , I'd be laid off for the first time in my life . I was very fortunate and knew eventually my time would come , so I'm accepting it the best I can . I move a little each week ( slow but sure ) on the list and am getting very close to a call . As a result of my downtime , I finally got my electrical contractors license , which in all honesty , if I was still working steady , probably wouldn't have done . That was something that I wanted right out of my apprenticeship , but was always working insane hours and never made the time to commit to . I'll be cautiously optimistic in saying , the worst is behind us , and a major building boom , can't be too far behind ! You can only neglect electrical infrastructure for so long before the wheels fall off the train . When that happens , we're all busy !


None of us who are "basic" normally expect the rug to be pulled out from under us. Luckily you prepared for it. The other side of the argument is as BJ put it...every side job does in fact hurt someone. I have a story on here of when I had my own shop and was underbid by a GC who won the job and did the electrical work with out of work guys...and the addition burned down killing a baby. Yes that's extreme, but I saw it. I don't believe in side jobs. That's just me. I'm a 3rd Gen who was raised with the mentality of, if you can't handle unemployment and driving a cab or doing something else for a few months to supplement your unemployment then you're not helping the IBEW. I don't know about you, but my local has been there every single time I've needed them. I'm talking about other than work related instances. For 26yrs I've prepared for being out of work "drumnut". NYC is a big place and I've had hundreds of guys ask me to file jobs for them over the years. Personally I have wanted no part of it unless it was for family of someone I know or I personally trained. Remember this too...when you're an instructor for the IBEW you don't get to collect unemployment either! We have to live on our teaching paychecks...Which is a little less than NYS Unemployment. An old timer told me a long time ago...prepare for it, so your time out can be enjoyed and spent with family. Nothing better than having to figure out how to file for unemployment from the Caribbean! It's all relative though, we have different experiences and different shoes. I always told my students that, and follow it with...

"but you gotta do what you gotta do to feed your family."

I think traveling isn't for "everyone" these days because guys are afraid to do it. More often it's not because they "can't", it's because they are comfortable and were never exposed to it in the first place. The idea of going to a different city to work scares the **** out of people. The rank and file aren't educated on how to do it and what the benefits of it are. For some, traveling is the best thing that ever happened to them...I'm one of those guys. I came back to NYC a MUCH better electrician than I was when I left. So much so that I got my license immediately. Lets talk about that now...

There's no excuse for not getting it right after your apprenticeship. We tell guys from the get go...if you want that feather in your hat...do it immediately. NYC is one of the hardest Master Electrician's Tests in the country. One of three locations that have a three step process with a closed book test. Anyone who has multiple licenses will tell you never to wait...just do it. 

I'm glad you got yours! Did you tell your local that you passed and got it? I'm not sure where you are in NJ, but there are locals that will work with you. I have friends who are instructors who have their licenses in other parts of the country where their local placed them as license holders in their shops. Instant Project Manager. 

At least you're moving up the list brother. That's the life you signed on for 19yrs ago. I understand that we all get complacent being with one shop for the long term. It has happened to just about every single guy on this forum. In my opinion it's about sticking together and following the rules, not about every guy for himself.

Again, that's just my opinion...you gotta do what you gotta do.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> None of us who are "basic" normally expect the rug to be pulled out from under us. Luckily you prepared for it. The other side of the argument is as BJ put it...every side job does in fact hurt someone. I have a story on here of when I had my own shop and was underbid by a GC who won the job and did the electrical work with out of work guys...and the addition burned down killing a baby. Yes that's extreme, but I saw it. I don't believe in side jobs. That's just me. I'm a 3rd Gen who was raised with the mentality of, if you can't handle unemployment and driving a cab or doing something else for a few months to supplement your unemployment then you're not helping the IBEW. I don't know about you, but my local has been there every single time I've needed them. I'm talking about other than work related instances. For 26yrs I've prepared for being out of work "drumnut". NYC is a big place and I've had hundreds of guys ask me to file jobs for them over the years. Personally I have wanted no part of it unless it was for family of someone I know or I personally trained. Remember this too...when you're an instructor for the IBEW you don't get to collect unemployment either! We have to live on our teaching paychecks...Which is a little less than NYS Unemployment. An old timer told me a long time ago...prepare for it, so your time out can be enjoyed and spent with family. Nothing better than having to figure out how to file for unemployment from the Caribbean! It's all relative though, we have different experiences and different shoes. I always told my students that, and follow it with...
> 
> "but you gotta do what you gotta do to feed your family."
> 
> ...


Well , I assure you guys I'm doing things legally and not trying to hurt an open shop guy either . I was on that side of the fence for 1/2 of my electrical career , so I can appreciate where you're coming from . The size jobs I'm doing isn't hurting anyone believe me , lol ! Small and few and far between . Some locals aren't reel keen on guys getting their licenses , but mine has no problem with it . Having the license gives us options we didn't have before , union or non . Better days are coming .


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

They are! I just heard again tonight that we are letting go of our furlough program AND they are going to allow us to be weekend warriors again!


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## J_Paul771124 (Feb 1, 2012)

Yeah I'm looking into Traveling I've signed books all over NJ, PA and upstate NY but no word


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Give it some time. You'll hear something.


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> I heard that too...about the SALT card. For the first time in over a decade Local 3 is down to just over 100 men on the bench. Sandy did a real number on everyone here. Basically all the services in lower Manhattan have to be opened up, checked, busses cleaned, and reassembled. Getting down to 100 in the bench is a huge deal when you have a local with 15,000 Inside Wiremen. To have that kind of employment is monumental, and comes with the cost of our loved ones suffering.
> 
> Anyone notice this year has had a lot of bad stuff happening around the world. I mean..worse than other years?


WOW, only 100 men on the bench that is amazing with so many Journeymen. Which trickles down to hiring more apprentices. what is the ratio supposed to be 3:1. Until the storm what were the average number of guys out.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> WOW, only 100 men on the bench that is amazing with so many Journeymen. Which trickles down to hiring more apprentices. what is the ratio supposed to be 3:1. Until the storm what were the average number of guys out.


Prior to Sandy there was over 1000 on the bench, not including those on furlough...who have all been called back. Yes, the ratio is 3 to 1 here in NYC. You may be called earlier than we thought! LOL


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> Prior to Sandy there was over 1000 on the bench, not including those on furlough...who have all been called back. Yes, the ratio is 3 to 1 here in NYC. You may be called earlier than we thought! LOL


I was just thinking that. Before my thinking was based on 02-03 when I started school in Jan 02 then work June 02. Now It might be Jan I'd start school and work.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Dunno. I have to crash...I'm proctoring the A Test tomorrow. G'nite bro to be...lol


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

How soon does your benefits kick in after getting sworn in? Anynody?


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

6 months from the 1st day your actually start working. I'm going to assume your an apprentice 1st year 1st half.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> I look at it this way , everyone has to do what they have to , to survive . Collecting unemployment and waiting for a call to work from the union doesn't always cut it ! As far as getting caught , it's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission .


Typical, the rules are only the rules if they are easy.


So I assume if the contractor you are working for ignores the rules you have no problem with that?


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

sopranocaponyc said:


> 6 months from the 1st day your actually start working. I'm going to assume your an apprentice 1st year 1st half.



cw3/local 25


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

spiderneck30 said:


> cw3/local 25


Does your local require 14,000 hours (7 years) for the cw/ce program to become a JW?


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

Frasbee said:


> Does your local require 14,000 hours (7 years) for the cw/ce program to become a JW?



Yes from what i know. I just got sworn in so theres alot i need to learn politics wise.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> Yes from what i know. I just got sworn in so theres alot i need to learn politics wise.


Politics is easy...listen more than you speak. No one ever lost their job because of listening and learning. 

Stay out of any discussions about work on the "outside" at first...it will just brand you as an "outsider". Listen and figure out what the guys you're working with are about. 

Never offer up anything before it's asked.

Lastly...and these are words that I've learned to love:

Before you "say" or "write" something...think of these 3 Rules first:

*1. Does it need to be said...?

2. Does it need to be said...by ME?

3. Does it need to be said...by Me...NOW?*

Follow those and you'll be ok...HELL...if *I* could remember to follow those more often *I'd* be OK! LOL

But seriously...a wise mentor of mine told me that a long time ago...and I'm just realizing how good that saying is now a days...


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Typical, the rules are only the rules if they are easy.
> 
> So I assume if the contractor you are working for ignores the rules you have no problem with that?


Well , I'm not exactly sure what you're implying here BBQ , but I'm not breaking any rules . As far as signatory union contractors , they need to follow a lot of rules or stand the risk of bring reported to the locals ! The local I belong to has a different stance on what people need to do to survive while the unemployment rate is still so high . They don't necessarily want to know what one does to supplement their income while being laid off , but they understand the reasons why people do what they do .


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Every Local is different...with different rules and penalties for "moonlighting". It is against the rules of the IO...some locals take that more seriously than others. It also depends on how involved with the IO the individual Local is. LU3 is very involved with the IO...we are the bank. So we have to be the way we are as we are always under scrutiny.


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

spiderneck30 said:


> cw3/local 25


where is that, Long Island!


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

sopranocaponyc said:


> where is that, Long Island!



sorry for the delay bros im kinda all over at the moment. Thanks for the tip Icefalkon and yes local 25 covers long island Nassau/Suffolk counties.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> Has the local barred apprentice from working the solar arrays? Local #11 has been having calls on a regular basis putting out even on book 4 (with out a state certification???) Something just does not add up?


Hi, I am just getting back to this. Yes, I am a member. See my other thread. Many arrays are being built by a combination of laborers (doing a majority of the work), and non-union ECs (doing the tie-in). It's a huge blow to us. Work is unbelievably slow here, even worse than it was during the '08 recession.


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