# Bathroom circuit



## Jeffm13 (Jan 8, 2020)

Replacing all the devices only in a house, had a inspector tell me today since I was modifying the bathroom circuit with a new tamper GFI that I had to replace the wire in the wall that is currently a 15a circuit fused at 15a with 20A. When I asked for the code he could not provide except it was a fire hazard. Anyone know where this is stated?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A 15 amp circuit fused at 15 with a 20?

Did you mean 14 wire on a 20?


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## Jeffm13 (Jan 8, 2020)

No, there is a 14 fused with a 15A breaker. According to him since I modified by replacing the GFI I have to pull in a 12 fused at 20. Won’t sign off until replaced. Stating this is a fire hazard and code requires the wire to be brought up to code.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Jeffm13 said:


> No, there is a 14 fused with a 15A breaker. According to him since I modified by replacing the GFI I have to pull in a 12 fused at 20. Wonâ€™️t sign off until replaced. Stating this is a fire hazard and code requires the wire to be brought up to code.


You need an inspection and permit to replace receptacles?


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## TheLivingBubba (Jul 23, 2015)

From what I'm gathering, it's 14/2 ran to a bathroom, you switched it to a TR GFCI, and they are calling you out? Did you use a 5-15 Recept GFCI? If not, switch it to a 5-15R and call it a day. You can put a 15A gfi on a 15 or 20 Amp circuit, you cannot put a 20 amp gfi recept onto a 14/2 circuit with a 20 amp breaker.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Just get a 15a. GFI. I think he's cornfused, you can put a 20a. recep. on a 15a. circuit, you can't (supposedly) put a 15a. recep. on a 20a. circuit. The breaker protects the wire, not the device.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I believe he's referencing 210.11


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## Jeffm13 (Jan 8, 2020)

He came for a rough inspection on a separate are for the laundry. I removed the devices and fixtures in the bathroom to be swapped. I have no gfi installed yet, but since he saw the 14g wire in the box he is making me bring circuit up to code. I understand the 20a requirement in the bathroom but what in the code makes me bring the whole circuit to code on a gfi replacement. In his wisdom if I get a call about a bad gfi and the wiring is 15a I have to bring a new wire as well. I’m calling him out on this but want to make sure I’m not missing something.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jeffm13 said:


> He came for a rough inspection on a separate are for the laundry. I removed the devices and fixtures in the bathroom to be swapped. I have no gfi installed yet, but since he saw the 14g wire in the box he is making me bring circuit up to code. I understand the 20a requirement in the bathroom but what in the code makes me bring the whole circuit to code on a gfi replacement. In his wisdom if I get a call about a bad gfi and the wiring is 15a I have to bring a new wire as well. I’m calling him out on this but want to make sure I’m not missing something.



He's wrong. Unless your jurisdiction has published amendment's that state you must upgrade the circuit when replacing receptacle outlets. I doubt they have any. Be prepared to gain an enemy however.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joebanana said:


> Just get a 15a. GFI. I think he's cornfused, you can put a 20a. recep. on a 15a. circuit, you can't (supposedly) put a 15a. recep. on a 20a. circuit. The breaker protects the wire, not the device.


It's the other way 'round.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Jeffm13 said:


> He came for a rough inspection on a separate are for the laundry. I removed the devices and fixtures in the bathroom to be swapped. I have no gfi installed yet, but since he saw the 14g wire in the box he is making me bring circuit up to code. I understand the 20a requirement in the bathroom but what in the code makes me bring the whole circuit to code on a gfi replacement. In his wisdom if I get a call about a bad gfi and the wiring is 15a I have to bring a new wire as well. I’m calling him out on this but want to make sure I’m not missing something.


You shouldn't be expected to rewire a house because the code changed. There is no fire hazard as long as the breaker is the correct size. Tell him to go pound sand.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

My concern is more with the notion that having a 15A circuit in the bathroom is "dangerous" and a "fire hazard". This is the problem with people who blindly follow the code and law. 

A 20A circuit in the bathroom is a completely arbitrary requirement. The next person can say that 2 20A circuits are required, and if you don't have that it is a fire hazard. It's all BS. There is nothing safer about 20A when the homeowner is trying to draw 25A of current.

This is why many of us believe the people who buy into the code nonsense and think we should follow it are nothing more than ignorant sheep.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

In Canada we only need a 15 amp receptacle in washrooms and the circuit does not have to be a dedicated one, it can be on with other loads.

So every house in Canada has a fire hazard in their washrooms? LOL


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> In Canada we only need a 15 amp receptacle in washrooms and the circuit does not have to be a dedicated one, it can be on with other loads.
> 
> So every house in Canada has a fire hazard in their washrooms? LOL


No, not at all, because it's code compliant there so it must be safe. 

It's only dangerous here because it's against code.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

What a doofus. As I recall the 20A bathroom circuit wasn't a thing until the 90s. I've done a pile of bathroom renos with a 15A circuit feeding the bathroom (or bathrooms), and never had a problem. It's not any more of a hazard than 15A receptacle circuits anywhere else. It's just an arbitrary code requirement to prevent nuisance tripping running hair dryers, curling irons, and such.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Every house in the United States wired before the 1996 change in the NEC has a 15 amp circuit in the bathroom, either on with other circuits in the house if it's built in the 1960's or earlier, or on with the garage and weatherproof outlets protected by one GFCI somewhere. 

And people wonder why I advocate avoiding permits.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> Every house in the United States wired before the 1996 change in the NEC has a 15 amp circuit in the bathroom, either on with other circuits in the house if it's built in the 1960's or earlier, or on with the garage and weatherproof outlets protected by one GFCI somewhere.
> 
> And people wonder why I advocate avoiding permits.


Pffft... My 1965 house still has the receptacle on the bathroom vanity light.


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## Seau1355 (Jul 24, 2017)

Jeffm13 said:


> Replacing all the devices only in a house, had a inspector tell me today since I was modifying the bathroom circuit with a new tamper GFI that I had to replace the wire in the wall that is currently a 15a circuit fused at 15a with 20A. When I asked for the code he could not provide except it was a fire hazard. Anyone know where this is stated?



I know you mention you only replaced devices, but was there more work going on outside electrical? Doors, windows, walls, etc... If your jurisdiction has adopted the International Rehabilitation Code is it possible the project as a whole may fall under a Level 2 Alteration


_SECTION 808 ELECTRICAL 808.1 New installations. All newly installed electrical equipment and wiring relating to work done in any work area shall comply with all applicable requirements of NFPA 70 except as provided for in Section 808.3._


If it falls under a Level 1 Alteration/Repair you should be fine.


_SECTION 607 ELECTRICAL 607.1 Material. Existing electrical wiring and equipment undergoing repair shall be allowed to be repaired or replaced with like material._
_ 607.1.1 Receptacles. Replacement of electrical receptacles shall comply with the applicable requirements of Section 406.4(D) of NFPA 70._



Outside of this, I've got nothing.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> It's the other way 'round.


You ever tried to stab #12's into a 15a. recep.?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joebanana said:


> You ever tried to stab #12's into a 15a. recep.?


I don't even try to stab #14 into a 15 A receptacle. What does that have to do with this?


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## DashDingo (Feb 11, 2018)

Your inspector is pulling this out of his butt.



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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Pffft... My 1965 house still has the receptacle on the bathroom vanity light.


I doubt it.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> It's the other way 'round.


I didn't say "duplex" recep. But, as far as 15a. duplex receps. go, the holes for the stab-ins won't accept a #12 (solid). So if you put a duplex 15a. recep. on a 20a. circuit, you have to pigtail #14's if you're a stabber. Some don't even have screw terminals.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joebanana said:


> I didn't say "duplex" recep. But, as far as 15a. duplex receps. go, the holes for the stab-ins won't accept a #12 (solid). So if you put a duplex 15a. recep. on a 20a. circuit, you have to pigtail #14's if you're a stabber. Some don't even have screw terminals.


I don't backstab residential grade receptacles. So I damn sure wouldn't even possess a receptacle with no screws. Straight to the trash bin.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I don't backstab residential grade receptacles. So I damn sure wouldn't even possess a receptacle with no screws. Straight to the trash bin.


Do you use wagos? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Just curious that's all. I backstab if it's trimming out a whole house but will wrap around terminals if I'm installing a few devices.

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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

zac said:


> Do you use wagos?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Only the ones that come pre-attached to light fixtures.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> Just curious that's all. I backstab if it's trimming out a whole house but will wrap around terminals if I'm installing a few devices.


It bothers me that a man of your stature would trim out a whole house.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> I don't backstab residential grade receptacles. So I damn sure wouldn't even possess a receptacle with no screws. Straight to the trash bin.


Obviously you don't do tract homes, piece work.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joebanana said:


> Obviously you don't do tract homes, piece work.


My Spanish is terrible.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joebanana said:


> Obviously you don't do tract homes, piece work.


That kind of work is for laborers. As much as I dislike licensing, it does keep piece work from destroying the electrical industry in my area.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MTW said:


> That kind of work is for laborers. As much as I dislike licensing, it does keep piece work from destroying the electrical industry in my area.


The laborers union is trying to muscle in on underground work, just like the carpenters are, in residential work.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jeffm13 said:


> Replacing all the devices only in a house, had a inspector tell me today since I was modifying the bathroom circuit with a new tamper GFI that I had to replace the wire in the wall that is currently a 15a circuit fused at 15a with 20A. When I asked for the code he could not provide except it was a fire hazard. Anyone know where this is stated?


Put the old existing device back in. I wouldn't rewire, unless the drywall was removed.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Jeffm13 said:


> Replacing all the devices only in a house, had a inspector tell me today since I was modifying the bathroom circuit with a new tamper GFI that I had to replace the wire in the wall that is currently a 15a circuit fused at 15a with 20A. When I asked for the code he could not provide except it was a fire hazard. Anyone know where this is stated?


210.11(C)(3): One 20A, 120V branch circuit must be provided for the receptacle outlets required by 210.52(D) for all dwelling unit bathrooms. 

I did a room addition about 10 years ago and the inspector made me pull in a new 20 amp circuit to replace the existing 15 amp circuit. He also had me put 120 volt smoke detectors in the bed rooms and hall way. At the time I had no issues with doing it as the home owner paid for everything and it gave me more money in my pocket. 

In your situation you are just preforming a maintenance function by replacing old devices and have not disturbed or replaced any of the actual wiring or altered the original design of the electrical system. Hope it all works out for you.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> *You shouldn't be expected to rewire a house because the code changed.* There is no fire hazard as long as the breaker is the correct size. Tell him to go pound sand.


That would be great for business though.

I agree, time to educate the inspector.


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## uncle_woobie (Jan 25, 2020)

Easy said:


> 210.11(C)(3): One 20A, 120V branch circuit must be provided for the receptacle outlets required by 210.52(D) for all dwelling unit bathrooms.
> 
> I did a room addition about 10 years ago and the inspector made me pull in a new 20 amp circuit to replace the existing 15 amp circuit. He also had me put 120 volt smoke detectors in the bed rooms and hall way. At the time I had no issues with doing it as the home owner paid for everything and it gave me more money in my pocket.
> 
> In your situation you are just preforming a maintenance function by replacing old devices and have not disturbed or replaced any of the actual wiring or altered the original design of the electrical system. Hope it all works out for you.


right, this makes sense. Our inspector only expects us to bring a circuit/room up to code if the walls are opened up - which is reasonable. If you are replacing a bathroom GFCI then it would be unreasonable to expect you to fish a 12/2 to the location. Almost every older home has 14awg in the bathroom receptacle - inspectors have to understand who we are competing with.

The code is making it harder and harder to compete with the handymen doing small electrical work - homeowners don't understand the price difference and the best we can do is explain the code and hope they are smart enough to make the right decision.

The issue we have in our county is that we have 1 inspection agency that is reputable and inspects everything thoroughly and 1 inspection agency that hands you the inspection sticker in the driveway. It all depends on how you want your business to operate - do you want to be reputable & trustworthy or do you want to do the bare minimum just to get the job done knowing that your inspector will pass it anyway?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

uncle_woobie said:


> right, this makes sense. Our inspector only expects us to bring a circuit/room up to code if the walls are opened up - which is reasonable. If you are replacing a bathroom GFCI then it would be unreasonable to expect you to fish a 12/2 to the location. Almost every older home has 14awg in the bathroom receptacle - inspectors have to understand who we are competing with.
> 
> The code is making it harder and harder to compete with the handymen doing small electrical work - homeowners don't understand the price difference and the best we can do is explain the code and hope they are smart enough to make the right decision.
> 
> The issue we have in our county is that we have 1 inspection agency that is reputable and inspects everything thoroughly and 1 inspection agency that hands you the inspection sticker in the driveway. It all depends on how you want your business to operate - do you want to be reputable & trustworthy or do you want to do the bare minimum just to get the job done knowing that your inspector will pass it anyway?


I think most customers don't have a clue as to what is involved but some customers are terrified about shock hazard or fires and those customers will accept the inconvenience and extra cost. Inspectors do the best they can but sometimes fall short on electrical knowledge because they are tasked with inspecting plumbing, foundations, structural and other aspects of the job. At least in the residential arena. If your work is neat they will often times just pass you without really looking at the job that well.


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## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

OMG!!!! A 15 amp circuit feeding a bathroom outlet???? I'm surprised the house hasn't burned down !!! LOL This guy is an electrical inspector????


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MTW said:


> Every house in the United States wired before the 1996 change in the NEC has a 15 amp circuit in the bathroom, either on with other circuits in the house if it's built in the 1960's or earlier, or on with the garage and weatherproof outlets protected by one GFCI somewhere.
> 
> And people wonder why I advocate avoiding permits.


This is so true. Depending on what state you are in homes were wired like this even after 1996. Usually the service panel is just outside the garage and the home run lands into a receptacle in the garage and goes on to the bathrooms. This is great for service calls because having the GFCI in the garage it's usually hidden behind boxes and junk and the home owner just wants power restored to the bathroom plugs and has no clue to what the issue or how to locate the GFCI.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Jeffm13 said:


> He came for a rough inspection on a separate are for the laundry. I removed the devices and fixtures in the bathroom to be swapped. I have no gfi installed yet, but since he saw the 14g wire in the box he is making me bring circuit up to code. I understand the 20a requirement in the bathroom but what in the code makes me bring the whole circuit to code on a gfi replacement. In his wisdom if I get a call about a bad gfi and the wiring is 15a I have to bring a new wire as well. I’m calling him out on this but want to make sure I’m not missing something.


He can’t inspect what isn’t on the permit. Even if he is wrong with his interpretation, he had no right to inspect it in the first place. I am very specific with my permits for this reason.


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## Zhizhastok (9 mo ago)

I invited an electrician when I had a similar problem. It was easier and more correct. I wanted to be sure that I would not have any problems in the future. I was changing the bathroom furniture and devices and wanted to replace the circuit. I have installed a lot of electric devices, so I had to improve the electric system of the bathroom so I could use them without any problems and avoid problems in the future. I have already been using this new system for three years, and luckily, everything is working well with no errors.


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