# Sylvania Panel



## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

From what I know, the zinsco was popular out west basically synonymous with slyvania. It's not to common to see them in the NE. FPE is the usual bummer around here. Last I changed out a res. zinsco was in '07, complete garbage IMO. Rip it out.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Tell him the panel needs to be upgraded. Zinsco Sylvania and the like are proven to be fire hazards. ok, ok well at least in labratory testing of the breakers.


----------



## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I agree with the above posters also the breakers are $$$$$ from what I remember.


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Out here in the west (AB) the Sylvania and Commander were/are pretty much the same. I've not heard anything all that bad about them, though I think a few here with more experience have in SK? Anyway, most of the ones I've seen were installed in the 80s, and they aren't around anymore. I just added a welder to a Sylvania panel next door to our shop yesterday. Its beat to hell, and doing fine.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

There is a line of 200 A GTE-Sylvania 30-42 ckt panels that are pretty roomy and take a BR breaker. A Housing Authority remodel I did years ago spec'd keeping the old panels with new breakers but rewiring everything else, including service entrance. Same panel.

All in all, the panels were 26 years old, but with a clean out and new breakers, they were perfectly fine.


----------



## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Check all the connecttions,
Clean if nessecary, Retension if ness'
But if they all do up ok,
And work ok,
with no signs of distress,
Then why replace ?
Advise the customer that older panels
naturally have more problems.
And let him decide !

Ripping out a perfectilly good panel based on rumour
is just foolish !
And should be the customers call !


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dmxtothemax said:


> .......And work ok,.......



And how, pray tell, do you test for this? :001_huh:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Give the customer your professional opinion. In this case, you are suspicious of the old panel and would be more comfortable if it was replaced. 

I never feel guilty about overselling a customer when it comes to safety. I would feel guilty, however, if I undersold them.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok.....it kind of seems like the rest of you feel the same as I do. The panelboard itself seems to be ok but I really don't like the breakers. Maybe if the breakers were new?? 

I know this family well and they have small children, I'd never sleep again if I knew that something happened because of a few hundred bucks to swap a panel..... plus they do want to do some electrical upgrades, like a couple of electric mini split ductless heat pumps and it has electric baseboard heat now so it'll have a fairly heavy load on it in the winters.

I'm going to let them know the things I've heard about the Sylvania panel, give them a price on a new panel and the upgrades and let them make the final decision.:thumbup:


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And how, pray tell, do you test for this? :001_huh:


^^^My thoughts too. I found a couple of boxes in the kitchen where somebody had shorted the hot to the side of the box.....probably changing plugs during the kitchen remodel.....and I have to wonder how well those breakers are going to perform now.....or if they even performed well then:001_huh:.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I would voice your expert opinion and allow the customer to decide without the use of scare tactics.

Take them to the panel and show them why you are concerned. If you just tell them something, they may think that you are just saying this get some work. But if you show them, it will click. Humans are visual learners.


----------



## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

The problem with them is they don't trip. An old co worker of mine said they played around with them after a swap, couldn't get them to trip like this video shows overloading the breaker.

If anyone has access to an old panel and some time, give it a shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMV1jmDn3o4

I'd show the HO a video like this on your phone, close the deal that way.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Not really trying to "close the deal" per se. The customer has kind of become a friend and his kids and mine are in sports together....etc,etc.

In this case I really am WAY more concerned about the safety issue....if any.....than I am about any sort of profit. I do very well in my regular job and really don't need the work. If they want to get somebody else to change it then thats good too. I only did the inspection on the house because the HO trusts my opinion.:thumbsup:


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I think those panels are garbage. My aunt has one, and I opened it up when she complained that some lighting circuits in her basement would trip "after a while" when she was hosting parties. The circuits(three, 15A) had a pile of 75w BR30 potlights on them. I threw my clamp on the circuits in question and discovered they would each hold 18A for well over an hour before tripping. The renovation that included these overloaded lighting circuits was done before she bought the house. I suggested a panel change.

I also think the neutral bus has a crap design that makes it unnecessarily hard to maintain a solid connection. I see these things in a lot of houses and some older commercial places too, and no fires to speak of, but who knows. If it was my own house I would definitely change it.

The customer is moving into a new house. If you're going to do a panel change now is the least disruptive time.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> ..... they would each hold 18A for well over an hour before tripping..........


That sounds about right.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I threw my clamp on the circuits in question and discovered they would each hold 18A for well over an hour before tripping.


And?







I've worked on that style panel. I don't think it's any worse then anyone else's 1" bolt ons.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Vintage Sounds, I think what these guys are trying to say is that it might not be unusual for a 15 amp circuit breaker to hold for an hour at 18 amps before tripping. Overcurrent protective devices operate according to current and time. If a device is letting through excess current that close to its current rating (18 amps for a 15 amp device), it might be reasonable to take an hour for the device to open. It does seems a little long to me but, then again, what do I know?

The purpose of the circuit breaker is to protect the conductor. Insulation breakdown would likely occur at 18 amps but over an extended period of time. The circuit breaker was probably (and I stress, "probably") doing its job opening in an hour.

I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all. Just trying to pass on some knowledge  .


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

#14 THHN is rated for 25A in certain situations. I wouldn't be overly concerned.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Sometimes you gotta put things in perspective. It's not always about price. A home owner could spend thousands of dollars on a swanky bath tub not understanding that the only thing preventing sudden death is a forty year old breaker panel that was a piece of sh!t when it was new.


----------



## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And how, pray tell, do you test for this? :001_huh:


Any good electricain should know how to test a panel ?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

stuiec said:


> Out here in the west (AB) the Sylvania and Commander were/are pretty much the same. I've not heard anything all that bad about them, though I think a few here with more experience have in SK? Anyway, most of the ones I've seen were installed in the 80s, and they aren't around anymore. I just added a welder to a Sylvania panel next door to our shop yesterday. Its beat to hell, and doing fine.


In this case, Sylvania crosses straight over to CH, not a problem. The Sylvania number should be on the breaker.

I have never seen one of these Sylvania/Zinsco residential panels but they sound like a raging POS, even worse than Stab-Loc, and I never thought that was possible.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

dmxtothemax said:


> Any good electricain should know how to test a panel ?


Sure. You rip it off the wall and send it to a test lab along with a blank check.

BTW - "electricain"?


----------



## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

99cents said:


> Sure. You rip it off the wall and send it to a test lab along with a blank check.
> 
> BTW - "electricain"?


so it's a typo !


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dmxtothemax said:


> Any good electricain should know how to test a panel ?


I wanna know how the bad electricains test 'em. Care to fill us in?:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> #14 THHN is rated for 25A in certain situations. I wouldn't be overly concerned.


How much THHN do you find in resi panels?


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Quite a bit, but I will admit, it changes over to some other type of wiring method somewhere along the line.:whistling2:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> Quite a bit, but I will admit, it changes over to some other type of wiring method somewhere along the line.:whistling2:


So you see a lot of updates and rewires using EMT in the basements?


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I used to when I worked mainly residential, especially in one area of town with early 1900's homes. In my parts, exposed romex on the face of "finished" ceiling isn't common for whatever reason. Instead, we pipe the "finished" basement ceilings then change over to romex where we fish the wall.

(When I say finished I don't mean finished in a habitable room. It is more of plaster/lathe ceiling in an unfinished basement.)


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

dmxtothemax said:


> Any good electricain should know how to test a panel ?


Explain to me then oh great one.......EXACTLY how you would go about testing a 32 yr old circuit breaker to show exactly how much current it will take to trip the breaker....how long it will hold such current and how many times it will do so before a failure is imminent.:blink:

I have quite a few nice Fluke meters and meggars but I don't think any of them are designed for that.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How much THHN do you find in resi panels?


THHN I'm assumming is the same as what we call RW90. Trust me when I say I have neither to deal with. :laughing: The entire house is wired with NMD-90 (Loomex) and is all in good shape.

I spoke to the HO this morning and he has decided (just based on my original concerns) that he wants to change it. I love having customers who trust your opinion enough to take you seriously and whats better is he has NO problems paying a fair price.:thumbup: Top quality customer.


----------



## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Rollie73 said:


> Explain to me then oh great one.......EXACTLY how you would go about testing a 32 yr old circuit breaker to show exactly how much current it will take to trip the breaker....how long it will hold such current and how many times it will do so before a failure is imminent.:blink:
> 
> I have quite a few nice Fluke meters and meggars but I don't think any of them are designed for that.


I seriously doubt that many electricains would resort to testing individual breakers trip points !

Here's my take on old panels 
Reguardless of brand.
Does it look ok ?
Any obvious signs of heat damage or bad joins ?
Check all connecttions are tight and clean ?
Any cracked or damaged gear ?
Any damaged cables ?
Can it handle the expected loads ?

If it meets at least these minimum requirements
then I would not be worried.
If the customer wants a new panel, because
he prefers to air on the side of caution thats fine,
but I simply dont write off old gear just because its old !
I have seen too much old stuff that just seems to last.


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

dmxtothemax said:


> Here's my take on old panels
> Reguardless of brand.
> Does it look ok ?
> Any obvious signs of heat damage or bad joins ?
> ...


Yeah....I agree, but since you were so quick to point out that any "good" electrician should know how to test a panel......I just couldnt wait to hear your answer to my questions. 
How would you test if it could handle the expected loads without becoming a safety hazard when these things have been known to be an issue in the past? How would you test if it will do its job or fail and become a fire hazard in a fault condition when we know these things have been an issue in the past??

It is ok to say " I don't know the answer to those questions".....I know I'm damn "good" at what I do but I don't test equipment like that and don't know how to do so either....even though I am aware that the methods exist to do so. 
It's not a matter of tearing out old gear just because its old. Its a matter of removing potentially unsafe equipment because I.....or anybody else in this area.....are not able to gaurantee that it will perform properly when it needs to.


----------

