# Pipe bending is an art



## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician. 
At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

If you can't bend pipe you are not even a man.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You spend too much time bending your pipe and you'll get hairy palms.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

*I bend conduit, and I do it with authority!!!*


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Respect his authoritah!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> *I bend conduit, and I do it** with authority!!!*


 I now imagine that you bending conduit is a very noisy process, with you shouting at the pipe like Billy Mays:

* "30 degree four-point saddle?! BOOM!"*


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Not all electricians can bend pipe......

























Only the REALLY good ones


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Who can't bend pipe?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Big John said:


> I now imagine that you bending conduit is a very noisy process, with you shouting at the pipe like Billy Mays:
> 
> * "30 degree four-point saddle?! BOOM!"*


I do work for an oil company. Everywhere I bend conduit is noisy!:thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


Learn how to bend conduit better than he can, and tell him that he cannot call himself an electrician anymore. :whistling2::thumbup:


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


A monkey can bend pipe


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## newbi (Dec 17, 2011)

Dash Dingo said:


> A monkey can bend pipe


I want Professor Monkey to teach me how to bend segmented concentric bends. You got his number ?:jester:


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah cause trigonometry doesn't matter at....

Ignorant statement from someone who probAlly still backstabs outlets.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

There are all kind of electricians - some bend pipe. However, I know a few pipe benders that are not electricians.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Conduit bending in the industrial world is becoming a lost art north of the 49th.. Teck cable and now tray cable is taking it away, so that if you can wire your Christmas tree, you can be an electrician.. Some cable can look good too, but not the jaw dropping wows of some of the conduit racks and systems of days past...


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

eejack said:


> There are all kind of electricians - some bend pipe. However, I know a few pipe benders that are not electricians.


Ya union electricians! BOOM 


Kidding kidding


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## newbi (Dec 17, 2011)

Rochsolid said:


> Ya union electricians! BOOM
> 
> 
> Kidding kidding


Big John, punch him please.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Respect his authoritah!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ


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## Nick0danger (Aug 19, 2012)

glen1971 said:


> Conduit bending in the industrial world is becoming a lost art north of the 49th.. Teck cable and now tray cable is taking it away, so that if you can wire your Christmas tree, you can be an electrician.. Some cable can look good too, but not the jaw dropping wows of some of the conduit racks and systems of days past...



I always said you cant bend conduit till you do rigid aluminum in a skid. Spent the last 3 years doing industrial, going back to commercial and EMT my boss cant believe how fast i can bend EMT.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

i can make pipe do whatever I want, yall couldn't bend your way out of a wet paper bag. wheres the picture of my double saddles from a year ago

I kid I kid


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## ilikepez (Mar 24, 2011)

I never seem to land jobs where I can get conduit bending down.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


The validity of the statement depends on how much of a "well rounded" electrician you want to be. I was always proud to be able to bend conduit that would only look good to another electrician. It's all about craftsmanship. If a finish carpenter could run crown molding all in one length of wood, he would do it. Most times, he can't. If you look hard for the seams and can barely see them, chances are he was proud of his work. If conduit HAS to show, it may as well be level...concentric...straight...at right angles, if possible, and all of the rest.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> The validity of the statement depends on how much of a "well rounded" electrician you want to be. I was always proud to be able to bend conduit that would only look good to another electrician. It's all about craftsmanship. If a finish carpenter could run crown molding all in one length of wood, he would do it. Most times, he can't. If you look hard for the seams and can barely see them, chances are he was proud of his work. If conduit HAS to show, it may as well be level...concentric...straight...at right angles, if possible, and all of the rest.


agreed. I never understood why some people here take offense to a guy for making his runs level, plum, square, and true. it's not wasting time its just doing your job. if you can't or won't achieve those basic fundamentals with your conduit then don't bother running it


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> agreed. I never understood why some people here take offense to a guy for making his runs level, plum, square, and true. it's not wasting time its just doing your job. if you can't or won't achieve those basic fundamentals with your conduit then don't bother running it


Because they are total hacks and want to try to justify their lack of motivation and/or skill to do a quality installation


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm a hack, and don't know what I am doing, so I just clean up my benders so I look like a pro. :whistling2:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/just-hell-39004/

BAM!!

not art but good practice maybe


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## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> Because they are total hacks and want to make a dollar


FIFY

Now, get that pipe off the floor and into the ceiling, and if I have to break my back pulling because you decided to get artsy with your bender, your head and my lineman's are getting brought up at the next safety meeting. :jester:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

This is what I typically use.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> This is what I typically use.


I love my 1818. After I notched all center of bends on all the shoes we get along real well


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> I'm a hack, and don't know what I am doing, so I just clean up my benders so I look like a pro. :whistling2:


Nice and shiny, but what about that fugly looking shaft.:laughing:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well i think you have to look at what each electrician and what each does were in new construction only bro we dont do service work and we dont do romex .
But as in the past everyone thinks conduit bending is easy and anyone can bend a pipe yes that is a true statement anyone can bend conduit .
The trick is not to waste conduit make it look good no matter were its at
and do it on every job . But to design it plan it out and run conduit is the major key 
to good conduit crew . We run lots of it and i always get from most guys on this forum well thats all you do . LOL we do underground overhead set the gear pull the wire terminate test turn it on and design every run rack electrical room and trouble shoot anything from the ground up till the day they move into a building . And its funny but we use auto cad and everyone thinks the cad guy today designs the conduit runs for us and we follow what they design or the electrical engineer designs the conduit runs in the building . Thats a joke :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I was stuck with a green crew who never bent pipe, not even a stub up, brought my Jack Benfield book in for them, but it was information overload

So i played the 'art' card with them

I also brought a laser for them to use

It was frustrating & slow, but worked out

~CS~


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


Like anything else, it takes practice to get good at it. 

It is however a good skill to have, and if you have to do it for jobs you need to get good at it. It will save you lots of time and materials; it will also make your work look much more professional if you know what you're doing.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I was stuck with a green crew who never bent pipe, not even a stub up, brought my Jack Benfield book in for them, but it was information overload
> 
> So i played the 'art' card with them
> 
> ...


Did you notice one of those hand benders I have is a Benfield. That's how you know I'm a gangster with authority!


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

azgard said:


> Nice and shiny, but what about that fugly looking shaft.:laughing:


That won't fit into my bead blaster machine. :whistling2:
I new piece of 1" GRC will change that though. :thumbup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I spent a good chunk of my apprenticeship doing conduit bending in industrial facilities or electrical rooms with lots of exposed stuff. Produced quite a few quality conduit runs! Now, though, unless it's exposed or permanently visible, I only bend it enough to get it where it needs to go in a reasonable manner. Whenever possible I use a cable wiring method.



FastFokker said:


> Who can't bend pipe?


Still, I bet that water heater works just fine!


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

If you can't bend pipe. Use MC cables!


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Run your EMT straight and then everytime you need to turn just hook up an EMT connector to a Rigid coupling then flex it to your direction and go back to EMT again. You don't have to bend pipes to be an electrician but knowing how to bend pipe will make you a much better electrician and it's cheaper and more efficient to finish a job.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Run your EMT straight and then everytime you need to turn just hook up an EMT connector to a Rigid coupling then flex it to your direction and go back to EMT again. You don't have to bend pipes to be an electrician but knowing how to bend pipe will make you a much better electrician and it's cheaper and more efficient to finish a job.


WOW! Just......... *WOW:whistling2:*


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm on my 2nd year of apprenticeship, but I've finished all my classes. I run less than 300ft of pipe since I worked for my foreman. Been with the same foreman since day one. Do I know how to bend pipe, yes, am I good at it, I'm not too sure. Foreman never game me a chance to. But on weekends when I do side jobs I go Home Depot and I buy a bundle of 1/2" and bend them on my own time. Measure your distance and subtract 5" for a 90 with a level. or 30 degree offset. Height times 2. I've seen alot of good pipe being bent on walls when I'm at work. All these guys have at least 10 years of experience. You guys gave them all the credit for being an electrician. I can bend pipe, but it will take me some time to make it perfect but the work I do I can tell you it's up to code. I strap my emt within 3" from every box, and strap them every 10'. I don't overfill my conduit with wires. I use the right color of conductor, I make it safe for the next electrician to come work on it. Those that have over 10 years or more, not all of them know their codes, my foreman don't even know how to deration. So don't tell me if you can't bend conduit you are not a electrician. If you don't know your code, you aint doing it right!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> WOW! Just......... *WOW:whistling2:*


Keep in mind Mr Roy that many of our electricians make a great living and have never touched RMC and rarely touch EMT.

We do large commercial, retail, institutional work etc. Cable is king up here.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Keep in mind Mr Roy that many of our electricians make a great living and have never touched RMC and rarely touch EMT.
> 
> We do large commercial, retail, institutional work etc. Cable is king up here.


Come on though BBQ, emt to flex for a 90???:blink:
I'd rerun that conduit before I pulled conductors through it!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> Come on though BBQ, emt to flex for a 90???:blink:
> I'd rerun that conduit before I pulled conductors through it!


I'd rip it out, decapitate it, and set it on fire then I'd redo it


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I was doing a solar job and there was an expansion joint. We suppose to use expansion coupling but we were one short on the job. So what we end up doing was run EMT, Compression Connector, Rigid Coupling, Compression Connector back to EMT over the expansion joint and was okay by the inspector. That was just a scenerio.


Electricians have to satisfy the AHJ by doing things up to code and then also have to satisfy the boss/foreman on how they route their stuff to save money. Someday on the jobsite you don't always have all the material or tools. Think outside the box sometimes to get the job done. One day we were doing underground and no one has a hickey. I bent the rebar on my tow-hitch.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> I'm a hack, and don't know what I am doing, so I just clean up my benders so I look like a pro. :whistling2:


...no love for the bender handle? Looks good after sandblasting!


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

My bender is still brand new and I have it for two years. Bent maybe 4 90s and 2 offset on my 1" bender. never used my 3/4 bender before and maybe 10 bends on my 1/2". Sad electrican. But I'm always the one making up the head for wirepull and land the feeders in the Inverter and switchgear.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I was self taught on pipe bending. Most of my journeyman were either not very good at it,or just didn't care to teach. 

I picked up Benfields book, bought a crap load o EMT and j boxes, and then went to town in my garage! Figured it all out and thought I was pretty good......till I started to do industrial work

That's what made be good, something about screwing up rigid conduit that pisses your superiors off. Had a good journeyman takes me aside and really teach me the proper way to lay things out and how to do the right math, so the mistakes would disappear.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I learn you can't be a good bender overnight. It takes practice. It takes practice to know your bender. Im going to stick to my IDEAL bender, because they all bend differently


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I was doing a solar job and there was an expansion joint. We suppose to use expansion coupling but we were one short on the job. So what we end up doing was run EMT, Compression Connector, Rigid Coupling, Compression Connector back to EMT over the expansion joint and was okay by the inspector. That was just a scenerio.
> 
> 
> Electricians have to satisfy the AHJ by doing things up to code and then also have to satisfy the boss/foreman on how they route their stuff to save money. Someday on the jobsite you don't always have all the material or tools. Think outside the box sometimes to get the job done. One day we were doing underground and no one has a hickey. I bent the rebar on my tow-hitch.


Sounds like a Berg or Helix job.:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> If you don't know your code, you aint doing it right!


Again, there are all kind of electricians - some know their code. However, I know a few code warriors that are not electricians.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I never heard of benfields book. Is that a good book to have?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I never heard of benfields book. Is that a good book to have?


Absolutely - one of the finer books in the industry - great conduit book.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I think they even have DVD's available.....:thumbsup:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

I was once bending 3/4 rigid with a hand bender on a waxed hallway floor, not paying attention and talking with someone while bending, and the conduit slipped on the floor. Next thing I knew, my feet where at the height of my shoulders and I landed flat on my back. This happened after years and years and years of bending rigid conduit, pay attention was the lesson that day.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I just ordered one on Amazon.com. $22.00 Jack Benfields? Theres a 2nd edition. I do agree there's all kind of electricians, depends what you are. There's too much stuff to learn in the electrical trade


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I learn you can't be a good bender overnight. It takes practice. It takes practice to know your bender. Im going to stick to my IDEAL bender, because they all bend differently


Learning and using "your" bender is the best way to learn. Like you said, each brand is different and you never know if a coworker used his to bend rebar.
I keep my 1 1/4" greenfield bender close by. 

I don't have a 1" bender and its rare I ever need one. I hate to use the communal shop bender as the shoe is bent. 

I do have a 1/2 length handle for my 1 1/4".
I have gotten stuck in tight spots and only needed to tweak the conduit a little.


There is another book by Cox. It's conduit and cable tray. That's a good one also.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Last year my foreman made me bend an 1" Rigid on a 1 1/4" emt bender. I weigh about 150lb. It was memorial day weekend and it was friday. No one feel like working so he decided to let me try bending the rigid. I was bouncing around the floor on the bender. Then after trial after trial I finally got the hang on it and from that day on, I learn to use both the foot and hand pressure at the same time.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Switched said:


> I was self taught on pipe bending. Most of my journeyman were either not very good at it,or just didn't care to teach.
> 
> I picked up Benfields book, bought a crap load o EMT and j boxes, and then went to town in my garage! Figured it all out and thought I was pretty good......*till I started to do industrial work*
> 
> That's what made be good, something about screwing up rigid conduit that pisses your superiors off. Had a good journeyman takes me aside and really teach me the proper way to lay things out and how to do the right math, so the mistakes would disappear.


what made industrial any different, the racks of conduits and the staggering of bends?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Learning and using "your" bender is the best way to learn. Like you said, each brand is different and you never know if a coworker used his to bend rebar.
> I keep my 1 1/4" greenfield bender close by.
> 
> I don't have a 1" bender and its rare I ever need one. I hate to use the communal shop bender as the shoe is bent.
> ...


way to keep that truck clean, nice job. Makes finding items easier.:thumbup:


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Learning and using "your" bender is the best way to learn. Like you said, each brand is different and you never know if a coworker used his to bend rebar.
> I keep my 1 1/4" greenfield bender close by.
> 
> I don't have a 1" bender and its rare I ever need one. I hate to use the communal shop bender as the shoe is bent.
> ...



Damn that's a clean van. I have not seen any of the company van that clean.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Last year my foreman made me bend an 1" Rigid on a 1 1/4" emt bender. I weigh about 150lb. It was memorial day weekend and it was friday. No one feel like working so he decided to let me try bending the rigid. I was bouncing around the floor on the bender. Then after trial after trial I finally got the hang on it and from that day on, I learn to use both the foot and hand pressure at the same time.


when hand bending 1" rigid always try to put the back end of the conduit against a wall, or use a greenlee 555 like I do (if your company has one)


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

360max said:


> way to keep that truck clean, nice job. Makes finding items easier.:thumbup:


I hate digging around and falling over stuff. 
I just emptied the truck this morning. I have a couple of pumps to install when grainger gets here with my parts. 
That box in the back is the last of the pumps on an waste oil separator I'm doing.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

360max said:


> when bending 1" rigid always try to put the back end of the conduit against a wall


Shhh, don't let that secret out. 

I weigh less then him and its easy to bend 1 1/4 TW after you get your sea legs.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

360max said:


> what made industrial any different, the racks of conduits and the staggering of bends?


Having to calculate the shrinkage, never had to do that really with the 1/2 & 3/4 EMT. Had to figure out my runs, because everything needed to be cut and threaded before I slapped it in the bender.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Sometimes a scrap piece of conduit becomes useful too.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Run your EMT straight and then everytime you need to turn just hook up an EMT connector to a Rigid coupling then flex it to your direction and go back to EMT again. You don't have to bend pipes to be an electrician but knowing how to bend pipe will make you a much better electrician and it's cheaper and more efficient to finish a job.


Ouch… like I said knowing how to bend pipe will make your work look professional (this wasn't even close what I was thinking); if you need to run pipe, you need to learn to bend. If anyone did that here just to avoid using a bender, they’d NEVER hear the end of it. Plus that’s really got to make the wire pull more difficult.



Ninjazx916r said:


> I learn you can't be a good bender overnight. It takes practice. It takes practice to know your bender. Im going to stick to my IDEAL bender, because they all bend differently


True, even identical benders bend differently if one is new and the other one has a lot of wear.



Ninjazx916r said:


> I never heard of benfields book. Is that a good book to have?


Yes, Jack Benfield invented the EMT bender and then wrote the book on conduit bending.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> ...I weigh less then him and its easy to bend 1 1/4 TW after you get your sea legs.


 I wish like hell I had a picture of the day I let an apprentice try his hand at 1" rigid for the first time. I took my eye off him for a second and when I turn back around he's got one arm and both legs wrapped around the bender handle and is just hanging his entire body off it.

Told him I'd never seen anyone make love to a bender before.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Run your EMT straight and then everytime you need to turn just hook up an EMT connector to a Rigid coupling then flex it to your direction and go back to EMT again. You don't have to bend pipes to be an electrician but knowing how to bend pipe will make you a much better electrician and it's cheaper and more efficient to finish a job.


That has got almost top the "WTF" meter?? That would have pure hack written all over it, not to mention make for alot of good laughs at coffee...


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


How is this?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

BIGRED said:


> How is this?


The letter O is a code violation, too many degrees in bends.Looks like a total of 400 degrees.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Pulling ells... Yuk


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

BIGRED said:


> How is this?


Man someone was layed off... Lol


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

christrician said:


> Man someone was layed off... Lol


He or she probably got paid nothing for that job. For the love of art.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


Once MC cable was invented, you could get a drunk monkey to run wire.

Yes, it is an art. I'm good at it (except those dam dog legs).:thumbup:


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I was doing a solar job and there was an expansion joint. We suppose to use expansion coupling but we were one short on the job. So what we end up doing was run EMT, Compression Connector, Rigid Coupling, Compression Connector back to EMT over the expansion joint and was *okay by the inspector*.


Not sure why...big difference between RMC coupling and expansion coupling. 

Several years ago while doing a project at a Nat Gas storage facility, they got a septic system installed. While digging for the tank, an underground 1/2" RMC needed to be taken out, then replaced - and we never used nor bought any 1/2". This went to their ESD system and had to be put back in service ASAP. It happened to fall right where they put their tank! (Idiots!) We found one stick of 1/2" RMC and a UNY at the plant and my buddy made it fit!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?



I COULD BE VERY WRONG but based on my expierence of the average construction and service electrician that make such statements.

*Your JW is a F**KING idiot*. I have many electricians that work for me that will smoke his butt in many aspects of the trade I'd bet he knows nothing about, most likely make a damn site more money than he does, are in greater demand if they were looking for a job. BUt they are not the best at running conduit, they can install small pipe but do not do enough pipe work to be proficent at it.

This does not mean he is not a good electrician it just means there are many aspects to this trade and while some may not be proficent in one aspect they may excel at another.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

brian john said:


> I COULD BE VERY WRONG but based on my expierence of the average construction and service electrician that make such statements.
> 
> *Your JW is a F**KING idiot*. I have many electricians that work for me that will smoke his butt in many aspects of the trade I'd bet he knows nothing about, most likely make a damn site more money than he does, are in greater demand if they were looking for a job. BUt they are not the best at running conduit, they can install small pipe but do not do enough pipe work to be proficent at it.
> 
> This does not mean he is not a good electrician it just means there are many aspects to this trade and while some may not be proficent in one aspect they may excel at another.


All I got out of that was, "My guys are better than him", but the rest did not say why.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> All I got out of that was, "My guys are better than him", but the rest did not say why.


Well, that is completely understandable....:whistling2:


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

BIGRED said:


> How is this?


Not worth a ****. To many unnecessary couplings.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> How is this?


All the set screws and strap screws are vertical.
Looks good other then that "violation".


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

dawgs said:


> Not worth a ****. To many unnecessary couplings.


Also, what is with the set screw die cast fittings?:laughing:


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

FastFokker said:


> Who can't bend pipe?


CLASSIC:thumbsup:


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> Pulling ells... Yuk


C'mon Denny, its art!


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> C'mon Denny, its art!


Yes i know.... But i can still despise them! In 20 yrs ive installed 3!


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Pipe bending in the the electrical trade is like power lifting in the special Olympics.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

if by "Art" you mean "Plumbing"


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well its funny what people think about construction electricians we only run pipe we only dig holes were monkeys . I really dont think you have ever been on a real construction site if you think that .
But there are electricians who do just about all of it in construction if you do large projects you service what you install . 
You test and repair it you design it because today there is not one project thats ready to install with out redesign it wont work engineers. 

As far as any testing company goes and you always hear how smart these guys are there egos over inflated . We test our own equipment we only use you guys when its in our contract so you can charge us for you higher skills. It doesnt take much to test a breaker its not rocket science turning that current transformer on takes a lot of skill maybe 3 weeks at the community tech school .
I see it done on every job test megging high pot infa red scanning breaker testing ect ect . I guess to me its needed but its over rated because most jobs they wont let you test your own equipment so were forced to sub it out as far as cost of your testing equipment i bet you we have more money in just electric benders then all your high tech testing equipment in your shop . LOL


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Learning to bend 1 1/4" thin wall is easy if you start teaching them when they are young.


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## Qualtech (Apr 16, 2013)

Nick0danger said:


> I always said you cant bend conduit till you do rigid aluminum in a skid. Spent the last 3 years doing industrial, going back to commercial and EMT my boss cant believe how fast i can bend EMT.


Spend a year or two wiring skids, well and you can bend pipe in your sleep.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

aftershockews said:


> Once MC cable was invented, you could get a drunk monkey to run wire.
> 
> Yes, it is an art. I'm good at it (except those dam dog legs).:thumbup:


Throw that greenlee bender in the garbage lol jk


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> All I got out of that was, "My guys are better than him", but the rest did not say why.


The point is I do not have to say why, our trade is so deverse there are many excellent electricians that will never touch EMT.

My guys aren't necessarily better than him they excel at their specific portion of the trade they have decided to concentrate on.

Take a excellent pipe guy, he runs 4" so pretty it could make you cry in joy when you see his work and stick him in a 7,500 SQ FT custom house and see how good he is?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

As an apprentice I worked at companies that asked "Who can bend pipe?" and if you said no, you didn't get to bend the pipe. You would just never learn, as they didn't want to teach, they just wanted the job done. 

So one day I just lied and bent some pipe.. it was horrific. I somehow learned to bend pipe, but by no means the traditional way. I became okay at it, but it's been a couple years since I've bent a pipe.. and I might not even bend one again, who knows.

Not much pipe bending happening in residential.


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## adamv7010 (Mar 21, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> The validity of the statement depends on how much of a "well rounded" electrician you want to be. I was always proud to be able to bend conduit that would only look good to another electrician. It's all about craftsmanship. If a finish carpenter could run crown molding all in one length of wood, he would do it. Most times, he can't. If you look hard for the seams and can barely see them, chances are he was proud of his work. If conduit HAS to show, it may as well be level...concentric...straight...at right angles, if possible, and all of the rest.


This. 

Sometimes there are instances where it looks better to match existing equipment, pipe or mortar joints that aren't exactly plumb or level.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

adamv7010 said:


> This.
> 
> Sometimes there are instances where it looks better to match existing equipment, pipe or mortar joints that aren't exactly plumb or level.


Yeah, especially out in the oilfield. That's why I use my digital stabila levels. If it is 86.3°, then my conduit will be at 86.3° :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

FastFokker said:


> Not much pipe bending happening in residential.


No hard time or sarcasm, you primarily do residential? All aspects of residential, service, custom homes or other?

I always tried to let guys that had not done certian aspects get a shot, but that bugged my foremen.


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## adamv7010 (Mar 21, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> Yeah, especially out in the oilfield. That's why I use my digital stabila levels. If it is 86.3°, then my conduit will be at 86.3° :thumbup:


That's one way...and am accurate way at that Lol

If I need to run my pipe parallel to another...I just measure the gap as I strap if its not level...makes everything look uniform. 

Some guys don't realize how bad existing unlevel conduit can make your new level conduit look.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

adamv7010 said:


> That's one way...and am accurate way at that Lol
> 
> If I need to run my pipe parallel to another...I just measure the gap as I strap if its not level...makes everything look uniform.
> 
> Some guys don't realize how bad existing unlevel conduit can make your new level conduit look.


I'll never, ever forget the first conduit run I did in the oilfields. My foreman left me, and I was so proud of my conduits, all thre of them, all 1" GRC, all perfectly level. He showed back up, and pulled the step back 10 feet and look at your work...... "I guess I probably should've told you to match the existing runs."


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## adamv7010 (Mar 21, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> I'll never, ever forget the first conduit run I did in the oilfields. My foreman left me, and I was so proud of my conduits, all thre of them, all 1" GRC, all perfectly level. He showed back up, and pulled the step back 10 feet and look at your work...... "I guess I probably should've told you to match the existing runs."


Done it more than once before I realized what I'd been doing Lol


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I remember getting into it with a PM on a job over crooked conduit runs. 

He kept telling me my stuff was all crooked and looked like crap. I said no, mine was straight, the guy that came in behind me was crooked.

He hops up on the lift with my level, and comes back down yelling at the other guys! It was my first week on the job, and he didn't much like me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Last year my foreman made me bend an 1" Rigid on a 1 1/4" emt bender. I weigh about 150lb. It was memorial day weekend and it was friday. No one feel like working so he decided to let me try bending the rigid. I was bouncing around the floor on the bender. Then after trial after trial I finally got the hang on it and from that day on, I learn to use both the foot and hand pressure at the same time.


I bought a_ new_ 1 1/4 bender for one job we did, has that big fold out foot pedal 

If anything else, it teaches more _'leg' _ , not _'arm'_ is involved

One dude we had was 260lbs, 6'4" , walked onto it with one leg like most do a 3/4" bender

The rest of us usually set up near an I beam to balance us onto it with both feet, then lean back

The smaller guys always look like they're in some gymnastic event....

so we always sent the small guys out for 1 1/4 detail ....:thumbup:

what do you expect of a foreskin....?:devil2:

~CS~


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

This is one of the best threads I've read in a while! 

When I get back to the job I'm gonna get pix of my benders. I catch a lot of crap for them. When I started out, it took me about 4 months to get the hang of running pipe. I had a hard time but I was determined. I also believe attitude determines altitude so I painted my benders gold! 

Bending pipe is not as important as running it. Guys kill me when they brag about bending a perfect circle out of a ten foot stick (I've seen a guy do it) or write their name with bender and a pipe (liar). If you can do all that, you have either been screwing off or screwing off. Which is cool, but if you put 500 degrees in a run and don't set boxes, you can't run pipe. If you got a million couplings in a run, you can't run pipe.

The best way to learn to run pipe is with anal, picky J-men running rigid. It'll put hair on your chest.

I wish I had the opportunity to bend big pipe (2 1/2" and up) more often.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

I love bendin 1 1/4 with a Benfield style bender. I'm also 6' 230lbs. 

If you can run pipe, you will always have a job.:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> Who can't bend pipe?


Nice..:laughing:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

At 5'7" and about 145 lbs. a video of me bending 1-1/4" would go viral on YouTube!

I'm actually pretty good at it though. Guys like CS always sent me to do it because it looked so damn funny. No one new how much of a favor they were really doing me.:thumbsup:

I mean come on, the thing is almost bigger than me!:thumbup:


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

LightsOn81 said:


> I love bendin 1 1/4 with a Benfield style bender. I'm also 6' 230lbs.
> 
> If you can run pipe, you will always have a job.:thumbup:


Um, I dont think so. Of all you can do is run conduit, I dont need you.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

These arguments are stupid. There's skill involved in doing anything competently, quickly, and effectively.

It might be fantastic that you can do that one thing extremely well, just as long as that thing is always in demand. Otherwise you run the risk of limiting your options in life.

I am not excellent at anything. My value comes from being able to do a wide range of things with an average level of competency.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

dawgs said:


> Um, I dont think so. Of all you can do is run conduit, I dont need you.


Besides learning the basics of the trade, running pipe, running rope, troubleshooting motors & controls all take time. We all get better at what we do most often. Some like a tape measure and others use a folding rule. 
If a person is at one facility long enough they can walk in first thing & hear or feel that something is wrong. 
Everyone ends up being better at one piece of our trade. 
None if it is magic.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

So I picked up a bundle of 1/2" EMT today. It's sitting in my backyard. I will try to do multiple bends on one 10' conduit. I've never tried doing multiple bends beside box offset and a 90 or a 90 and a kick.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Get a 4'x8' sheet of plywood and then slap a few boxes and obstructions on the plywood.

Use this as your learning board, changing it up every now and then. Start with getting all of your bends and calculations perfect, don't worry about time at all. Do not use a bending app, write everything you do down in a notebook, so you can "learn" it, and see where and why you made mistakes.

Once you have gotten good at the bends, then you can focus on time. First quality, second speed.

Take pictures of your work as well, that way you can have some graphic proof of your progress. Lastly, have some fun!:thumbsup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

christrician said:


> If you can't bend pipe you aren't an electrician.
> At least this is what my journeyman says. Any validity to statement?


He's only 1/2 right. He is a moron though.



Ninjazx916r said:


> Run your EMT straight and then everytime you need to turn just hook up an EMT connector to a Rigid coupling then flex it to your direction and go back to EMT again. You don't have to bend pipes to be an electrician but knowing how to bend pipe will make you a much better electrician and it's cheaper and more efficient to finish a job.


This should NEVER EVER be done. You will never get a fish tape through it and even if you do, imagine how the wires are going to look after passing through that abortion.




Wirenuting said:


> Learning and using "your" bender is the best way to learn. Like you said, each brand is different and you never know if a coworker used his to bend rebar.
> I keep my 1 1/4" greenfield bender close by. =quote]
> 
> I never owned my own benders until I need a 1/2 and a 3/4 for work in my basement.
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Is this overkill for a 3way switch in a clients basement?:whistling2::laughing:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Is this overkill for a 3way switch in a clients basement?:whistling2::laughing:


I have worked for a number of outfits that wouldn't run anything smaller than 3/4" for just about everything, including a single pole switch!


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Switched said:


> I have worked for a number of outfits that wouldn't run anything smaller than 3/4" for just about everything, including a single pole switch!


Most places we work 3/4" is the minimum.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Switched said:


> I have worked for a number of outfits that wouldn't run anything smaller than 3/4" for just about everything, including a single pole switch!


Yeah,I just did not have any 1/2" and was too lazy to go buy some...:laughing:


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Is this overkill for a 3way switch in a clients basement?:whistling2::laughing:


No its not, looks "neat and workmanlike " to me


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You should have used the blue boxes with the k/o's in them!:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> No its not, looks "neat and workmanlike " to me


Any-way I can find a reason to run some pipe I like to do it,,I miss doing commercial stuff like that.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Switched said:


> You should have used the blue boxes with the k/o's in them!:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> Today they pull MC feeders and branch circuits and use smurf tube in slabs.
> The days of almost 100% pipe are gone IMO.
> Sad, but true.
> I imagine we will be turning out guys that never bent any conduit and will not ever need to bend any.


We used to run 100% pipe (industrial facility). Although we still run a lot of pipe for everything else, on the actual production equipment cable tray is now more common.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LightsOn81 said:


> I love bendin 1 1/4 with a Benfield style bender. I'm also 6' 230lbs.
> 
> If you can run pipe, you will always have a job.:thumbup:


I weighed 175 at 5'10" and ran 1000' of feet of 1-1/4". When they found out I could handle the bender the 1-1/4" was all on me.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Is this overkill for a 3way switch in a clients basement?:whistling2::laughing:


Yeah, definitely overkil.. I would have ran 1/2" EMT and just stubbed it up into the ceiling with a bang-on bushing at the top, then ran the romex down the sleeve. No need for that box up top.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Hackster said:


> Yeah, definitely overkil.. I would have ran 1/2" EMT and just stubbed it up into the ceiling with a bang-on bushing at the top, then ran the romex down the sleeve. No need for that box up top.


:sleep1::sleep1:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> :sleep1::sleep1:


You must be tired from all the extra work involved with doing it that way. :whistling2:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I wish I could locate my 3/8 greenfield bender. 
It stinks getting old and forgetting stuff.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Hackster said:


> You must be tired from all the extra work involved with doing it that way. :whistling2:


:sleep1::sleep1:


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> I'll never, ever forget the first conduit run I did in the oilfields. My foreman left me, and I was so proud of my conduits, all thre of them, all 1" GRC, all perfectly level. He showed back up, and pulled the step back 10 feet and look at your work...... "I guess I probably should've told you to match the existing runs."


Yep, the difference between level and straight!


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

In new construction in the 1970's.

Today they pull MC feeders and branch circuits and use smurf tube in slabs.
The days of almost 100% pipe are gone IMO.
Sad, but true.
I imagine we will be turning out guys that never bent any conduit and will not ever need to bend any.[/quote]

Well branch circuit yes feeders not just yet most large feeders inside a build you have a issue which is not the NEC but building codes fire proofing pass thur walls and floors expansion joints and the expense of running it up 40 floors and supporting it .Theres lots of issues that people dont see yes on a small job its fine .
You just dont run MC any place you can run conduit .
Most large feeders lets say 400 mcm to 750 mcm do not have the correct size ground its not to the NEC . When you get into paralleled runs your ground is not up to code . If you have ever done a power plant just about all controls and feeders are cable because they dont have the building codes and they have lots of tray cable there no electrical inspection . Theres conduit but more cable and if its a conduit about 90 % cable is inside that conduit feeder branch controls I/0 lots of fiber. But rigid or alum conduit is for protection and most areas its needed. I think its what or were you work or what type of jobs your company does as for me i dont see in my life time not running conduit on every job .
Theres more to it than what one sees and they have a long way to go before you just run cable in a commercial building . Theres the NEC but theres also building codes fire code and to change that would be a long long time .


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> I never owned my own benders until I need a 1/2 and a 3/4 for work in my basement.
> Company was always responsible for benders.


As part of our union contract......the company is responsible for supplying benders, BUT, I have gone to the supply house and bought a 1/2", 3/4", 1" and a 1 1/4" bender that are "mine" as in they never leave my truck unless I'm using them:thumbsup:




John Valdes said:


> A few years ago I was told (here on this forum) I was silly for using a back brace.
> That I should use more foot pressure.
> Well, we all know that is not true.
> Anything to help you is good.


I'll take any help I can get......especially when it comes to bending 1 1/4"





John Valdes said:


> I used to bend the 1.25" feeder conduits on the slabs.
> No place to hold your pipe against. Plus it was on top of rebar.
> The slab is very good place to learn.
> Seems they use smurf tube today?.


I refuse to use the smurf tube.....I used to run a lot of RMC for under the slab and I got to do most if not all of the bending. I'm just 6'0" tall but wiegh in at 245 lbs and that 1 1/4" bender doesn't seem that hard to handle. Or at least it didn't when I was 28 yrs old.:laughing: Now we seem to run nothing but PVC




JohnValdes said:


> But the very best guys can do it all. You know it and so does everyone else.
> A well rounded electrician can bend pipe today and program a PLC tomorrow.


Thats the kind of guys I would love to have on my crews. The guy who can take a job like wiring up some new motors and he can run the RMC drops, change over to flex, _properly_ connect the motor leads, run what ever cables/wires may be needed, wire up the starter, tie in any instrumentation and program the PLC if necessary.:thumbsup::thumbsup: 

WAIT.......I'm that guy.......I just need a few more ME:laughing:
I'm so modest too......:thumbsup:




JohnValdes said:


> Today they pull MC feeders and branch circuits and use smurf tube in slabs.
> The days of almost 100% pipe are gone IMO.
> Sad, but true.
> I imagine we will be turning out guys that never bent any conduit and will not ever need to bend any.


Very Sad........but very true


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Is this overkill for a 3way switch in a clients basement?


 Man, I woulda one-holed MC in there in a heartbeat. I must've spent too much time living in Mass.:whistling2:


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Like I said, if you can install pipe, you will always have a job. Where some of you guys live and work may have gone to all cable and such, but I haven't been on a job where it was all 100% MC. The jobs here are PVC, GRC, IMC, EMT, Greenfield and LFMC. We only occasionally use MC. If that's Stone Age to you, whatever. I don't bid the jobs, I just do them. The specs for the jobs here don't allow smurf, Carflex, MC or Romex.

So really, based on the diverse nature of our trade, nobody among us can seriously discredit someone's ability or lack thereof because while you may not install hard conduit in BFE or wherever we maybe from, other places, such as where I live, if you can't run conduit to the tune 100 ft. At the bare minimum, in a day, you may call yourself electrician, but nobody is going to ask you for your advice or opinions.

I agree the worst thing you can do is have a lopsided skill set, and the more exposure to different aspects of the trade the better.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LightsOn81 said:


> Like I said, if you can install pipe, you will always have a job. Where some of you guys live and work may have gone to all cable and such, but I haven't been on a job where it was all 100% MC. The jobs here are PVC, GRC, IMC, EMT, Greenfield and LFMC. We only occasionally use MC. If that's Stone Age to you, whatever. I don't bid the jobs, I just do them. The specs for the jobs here don't allow smurf, Carflex, MC or Romex.
> 
> So really, based on the diverse nature of our trade, nobody among us can seriously discredit someone's ability or lack thereof because while you may not install hard conduit in BFE or wherever we maybe from, other places, such as where I live, if you can't run conduit to the tune 100 ft. *At the bare minimum, in a day, you may call yourself electrician, but nobody is going to ask you for your advice or opinions.
> 
> I agree the worst thing you can do is have a lopsided skill set, and the more exposure to different aspects of the trade the better*r.


You had me until you hit the bold. I have several men that have never ran conduit and technically they are some of the smartest electricians walking. I'd bet up againist the average pipe runner they'd have him saying what, what, what when discussing setting relays, setting up paralleling gear, modifying a main tie main tie main control scheme, performing a ground survey, doing power quality investigations, infrared, battery maintenance and the list can go on and on.

In the peak of the recession with 1200+ men on the bench we were busy and hiring.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

brian john said:


> You had me until you hit the bold. I have several men that have never ran conduit and technically they are some of the smartest electricians walking. I'd bet up againist the average pipe runner they'd have him saying what, what, what when discussing setting relays, setting up paralleling gear, modifying a main tie main tie main control scheme, performing a ground survey, doing power quality investigations and the list can go on and on.


Wait, Brian, what's a relay? That cannot be anything electrical?:blink:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> Wait, Brian, what's a relay? That cannot be anything electrical?:blink:


It's the race where you hand that baton thingy off to the guy in front of you.:thumbup::laughing:


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Again Brian, with all due respect, the bulk of the work that we do where I am employed is pipe. 40% is installing pipe, 20% is pulling wire and terminating, 20% is trim out. Testing, troubleshooting, excavating, setting gear panels etc. make up the rest. 

I am not discounting anyone's intelligence, but the fact of the matter is, all the technicalities are irrelevant. Here's a perfect example.

My man Billy is a retired Naval electrician. 22 years of breaking motors down, troubleshooting complex electrical systems, strong theory background and a fetish for transformers. I often joke with him, that instead of the hot girls on the Ridgid calendars, Billy's got transformers wearing bikinis on his shop calendars.
The man is brilliant. But he hired in with our company the same time I did. He has forgot more about electrical than I have learned. Probably forgot more than our general superintendent has ever learned. And according to him, electric systems on a ship are essentially the same as on land. But he could not hire in on a electrician/j-man/mechanics level because he did not know how to bend and install conduit.

If my company bid for work where we programmed PLCs and other more complex things then the man that can do such things and may not be good at installing pipe would be more in demand. But we don't. Bryant Durham, Berg, Helix, Blackwater, Gaylor, Watson, Cline, Pride, and all the others around here are looking for people that can install conduit. So regardless of what level of technicalities you have grasped and attained to, if you can't run conduit, you won't be able to stay afloat long enough to prove that you are a real wiring wizard.

Just saying


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

We also fared really well during the recession 200 head not counting temp help.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

These threads are always good for a few laughs. :lol:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well lets see since 1967 as a Piperunner Monkey Dummy . This is for all the smart testing guys 

Started out GE plant electrician NJ then US NAVY shipboard 2nd EM class 4 years Nimitz then Port Smith elec ship yards then union jersey construction Elec and now Florida Elec which includes USA and in other countrys. Brunos Elec - Davis electric - Beehee Umholts elec - Kelly Elec - Sims & Mathews elec and now the with the 23rd to 27th largest electrical contractor in the USA . You can guess which one Brian because your so smart .

Funny part is we have tested batts megged high potted meg bearings we didnt have infa red when i started but we do now splicing cable HV testing paralleled gensets testing & trouble shooting anything from DC to AC from 5 volts to 160 kv voltsfrom 60 hz to 400 hz low voltage to high voltage .

We had relays dash pots VR CR we had wiring that a PCL does now that was more complex then any PCL program today . We did what they do today with control wiring and lots of schematics and relays . From power plants too schools to commercial buildings jails state prisons government projects air ports US base AF US navy bases milk plants packing plants industrial chem plants weapons storage HD chip plants data centers and we even worked space center when it was called Cape Canaveral .

Please bro give me a break with your ego! Yup and i can run pipe also it took 20 years to learn how to run pipe and no you can not learn what we do with pipe in two weeks sorry bro you dont know what a construction electrician does you only see the limited types you work with and today we still can test our stuff the problem is now its a sub like you due to a contract or we would still be doing it without you guys to rip us off . And yes you havent bent pipe until you have done a power plant or a space center project trust me on this.

And rigid is just heavy it bends the same way we didnt have Quik couples when i started like they kids today .
So get off the monkey pipe bending comments because its not easy it takes skill bubba were i work running conduit and its not every electrician slam and go home homies . And were not upset we just had to tell you the facts so you can tell us how smart your testing guys are and how there the best in the world keep patting your self on the back bro .


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## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

The only pipe I bend is my own!


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## Bosco72 (Jun 3, 2013)

A well rounded Electrican should know how to ben pipe.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> These threads are always good for a few laughs. :lol:


:thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Anyone else get caught looking up in a mall by another sparky claiming _"nice job, eh?"_......~CS~


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Anyone else get caught looking up in a mall by another sparky claiming _"nice job, eh?"_......~CS~


My wife hates going in to places like that with me. She claims I spend more time inspecting the conduit work than I do on whatever reason is the cause for me being drug in there.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

LightsOn81 said:


> Again Brian, with all due respect, the bulk of the work that we do where I am employed is pipe. 40% is installing pipe, 20% is pulling wire and terminating, 20% is trim out. Testing, troubleshooting, excavating, setting gear panels etc. make up the rest.
> 
> I am not discounting anyone's intelligence, but the fact of the matter is, all the technicalities are irrelevant. Here's a perfect example.
> 
> ...


If one of your motor is broken and I can't fix it because I've never done troubleshooting before. Can I just wire nut the old connection and them pipe a new circuit and give it power? If it still doesn't work can I just say you have a bad motor? Just saying. And if you want them normally closed/normally open type circuit in motor controls them I'll wire that in a contactor with a heater and stuff too. Then you can have a push button for on off switch and an emergency stops too.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Rollie73 said:


> My wife hates going in to places like that with me. She claims I spend more time inspecting the conduit work than I do on whatever reason is the cause for me being drug in there.


 Tell her you can either look at electrical work or other women, pick one. :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LightsOn81 said:


> Again Brian, with all due respect, the bulk of the work that we do where I am employed is pipe. 40% is installing pipe, 20% is pulling wire and terminating, 20% is trim out. Testing, troubleshooting, excavating, setting gear panels etc. make up the rest.
> 
> I am not discounting anyone's intelligence, but the fact of the matter is, all the technicalities are irrelevant. Here's a perfect example.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is this guy has not a clue on how to market himself? Because if he did he’d be working at a firm that can use his skill set, seems his training is going to waste at a firm that specializes in construction.

I will tell you again, few day to day construction electricians are getting 3-6 dollars over scale, truck to take home and additional none union mandated benefits 2-4 weeks paid vacation. And this is just not at my firm this is across the board for specialists in fire alarm, controls, PLC’s, electrical testing and on and on…

And not trying to run down what you do by any means but in 3-6 months a man can learn to run conduit adequately and never know ANYTHING about electricity, I doubt you could do the same in electrical testing.


I am not a one trick pony, I have a broad range of electrical experience, from residential, commercial, government, gas stations, churches, schools, hospitals, data centers, industrial , generation, battery systems and all this work takes special skill sets, some are more easily adapted others not so much.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

We are all better at some things than others.
Some of us have worked in heavy industrial and commercial yet some of can still install and program a VFD.

This is how I marketed myself for over the years.
Flexibility and the ability to do many things well.

Having only one or two things that you are an expert at, does not give you an advantage.
It is a disadvantage.

In fact I took conduit bending OFF my resume as I got older and started to work more in facility repair and maintenance.
Why give them one more thing to add to my job description.

It was my job in many instances to work on a schematic drawing one day, then the next, running conduit to a machine. 

And for all the pipe guys. I get it. I bent pipe for 10 years straight, eight hours a day, every day. On slabs, in malls and high rise buildings. Then I bent pipe for every single employer since then.
So I do know.

I can say with confidence, had I only learned to bend pipe and pull wire, I would have never had the opportunities I have had.
But the ability to bend pipe is a plus. Gives me an advantage.

It is the well rounded electrician that has the most opportunities. IMO.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Ninjazx916r said:


> If one of your motor is broken and I can't fix it because I've never done troubleshooting before. Can I just wire nut the old connection and them pipe a new circuit and give it power? If it still doesn't work can I just say you have a bad motor? Just saying. And if you want them normally closed/normally open type circuit in motor controls them I'll wire that in a contactor with a heater and stuff too. Then you can have a push button for on off switch and an emergency stops too.


If the motor is "broken", then how do you think running new conduit, and pulling in new conductors is going to fix a "broken" motor? Am I missing something here? Are you going to pull in a new type of conductor that magically fixes bad windings in a motor? This is why a well rounded electrician is far more valuable. If you did something like this on one of my jobs, you'd be run off. 

I'm not trying to knock on you, as you are learning the trade. I am all for having knowledgeable people in our industry. 
Properly troubleshooting a motor that has stopped working, could save a lot of money on repairs. Happy Father's Day everybody. :thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> If the motor is "broken", then how do you think running new conduit, and pulling in new conductors is going to fix a "broken" motor? Am I missing something here? Are you going to pull in a new type of conductor that magically fixes bad windings in a motor? This is why a well rounded electrician is far more valuable. If you did something like this on one of my jobs, you'd be run off.
> 
> I'm not trying to knock on you, as you are learning the trade. I am all for having knowledgeable people in our industry.
> Properly troubleshooting a motor that has stopped working, could save a lot of money on repairs. Happy Father's Day everybody. :thumbup:


Thanks Dad..:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

There's really nothing I can do with a motor when it's broken. all there is to a motor is a stator and the windings. If inside is damage, only thing I can do is ship it out and get it fix. On the other hand if the the circuit breaker or maybe the heater is broken then that I can trouble shoot and find out what the problem is outside of the motor. But all that trouble shooting should be check from the ladder diagram and the din rail. I've never worked on any motor or motor control on the job. Whatever I've know about motor is from school and it's not real life so don't know if it's any difference besides the differen type of motors. DC motors, 3 phase single phase motors, split phase. Just know if you wire it parallel or series it changes the voltage and if you swab A and C phase it changes the direction.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Ninjazx916r said:


> There's really nothing I can do with a motor when it's broken. all there is to a motor is a stator and the windings. If inside is damage, only thing I can do is ship it out and get it fix. On the other hand if the the circuit breaker or maybe the heater is broken then that I can trouble shoot and find out what the problem is outside of the motor. But all that trouble shooting should be check from the ladder diagram and the din rail. I've never worked on any motor or motor control on the job. Whatever I've know about motor is from school and it's not real life so don't know if it's any difference besides the differen type of motors. DC motors, 3 phase single phase motors, split phase. Just know if you wire it parallel or series it changes the voltage and if you swab A and C phase it changes the direction.


Meg the motor. Meg the conductors. If the motor fails the test, replace or repair the motor. If the conductors fail, replace or repair the conductors. Running things preemptively is just silly.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I've never worked on any motor or motor control on the job. Whatever I've know about motor is from school and it's not real life so don't know if it's any difference besides the differen type of motors. DC motors, 3 phase single phase motors, split phase. Just know if you wire it parallel or series it changes the voltage and if you *swab A and C phase it changes the direction*.


Or A and B.. Or B and C.. I usually swap A and C at the motor, with B already done up 100%.. Had one "consultant" tell me that swapping A and C wouldn't change rotation.. That was the start of 30 minute discussion on 3 phase...


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> Meg the motor. Meg the conductors. If the motor fails the test, replace or repair the motor. If the conductors fail, replace or repair the conductors. Running things preemptively is just silly.


I've only used a Megger a few times on a solar job. My question is if a conductor is splice and was butt crimped and shrink tube will that give a different outcome in the megger? Megger test the insulation by sending out high voltage right?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Ninjazx916r said:


> There's really nothing I can do with a motor when it's broken. all there is to a motor is a stator and the windings. If inside is damage, only thing I can do is ship it out and get it fix. On the other hand if the the circuit breaker or maybe the heater is broken then that I can trouble shoot and find out what the problem is outside of the motor. But all that trouble shooting should be check from the ladder diagram and the din rail. I've never worked on any motor or motor control on the job. Whatever I've know about motor is from school and it's not real life so don't know if it's any difference besides the differen type of motors. DC motors, 3 phase single phase motors, split phase. Just know if you wire it parallel or series it changes the voltage and if you swab A and C phase it changes the direction.


You are correct in that you personally cannot repair a motor yourself. That is the job for the motor shop.
But you can do the leg work to see if the motor is worth repairing? You can make sure the condition of the motor.
You can find out what the repair vs the new motor will cost.
You can make sure the replacement is not in jeopardy from something else causing this issue.
The day you send in a motor for repair and there is nothing wrong with the motor, I doubt you will be talking as much as you are now.



glen1971 said:


> Or A and B.. Or B and C.. I usually swap A and C at the motor, with B already done up 100%.. Had one "consultant" tell me that swapping A and C wouldn't change rotation.. That was the start of 30 minute discussion on 3 phase...


If you do that on the line side of a VFD, the motor will still turn in the direction it turned before you swapped out the leads.
Just an FYI.



Ninjazx916r said:


> I've only used a Megger a few times on a solar job. My question is if a conductor is splice and was butt crimped and shrink tube will that give a different outcome in the megger? Megger test the insulation by sending out high voltage right?


I am having a hard time following you.
It seems you have learned some words, but are really not sure where they belong in the sentence.
You have a very long road ahead.
The quicker you learn to shut up and listen, the faster you will know what you are talking about.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Ninjazx916r said:


> I've only used a Megger a few times on a solar job. My question is if a conductor is splice and was butt crimped and shrink tube will that give a different outcome in the megger? Megger test the insulation by sending out high voltage right?


 
Think of it this way

You have two conductors the reading on the two separate conductors is generally going to be a higher (better) reading that when you connect those conductors due the longer length thus more insulation.

Now you splice them assuming you splice is excellent, the readings should be close to what the same length, same age, same insulation, same installation, same environment (temperature humidity) unslpiced conductors.

But nothing is ever identical

But a poor splice in a crappy environment will give a lower reading.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

brian john said:


> But a poor splice in a crappy environment will give a lower reading.


But it can also give you a nice fireworks show depending on where the splice was made. :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Anyone else get caught looking up in a mall by another sparky claiming _"nice job, eh?"_......~CS~


Yes and when I see some beautiful pipe I am happy that some firms still employ tradesmen take pride in their work just as I cringe at crap work.

Then there is the pipe run that borders on art until some hack added another conduit with no thought to existing work


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> Think of it this way
> 
> You have two conductors the reading on the two separate conductors is generally going to be a higher (better) reading that when you connect those conductors due the longer length thus more insulation.
> 
> ...


Here is an example. Lets say I have 6 conductors all on 500 KCMIL all at 150ft long. And Lets say one was 30ft short (who ever order the wire ordered it short) So 30ft was added to the shorter one with butt crimped, high press and shrink tube. And lets say when we megger test the 5 of the same length wire and the all meg out to say between 300 - 330 ohms. Will a spliced wire show a noticebly difference? Reason I asked is will the shrink tube still give the same amount of protection as an unspliced wire. Since megger shoots out high voltage with little to no current and we size wires by the current but then the megger is to test the insulation and not current. It gets confusing here.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

brian john said:


> Then there is the pipe run that borders on art until some hack added another conduit with no thought to existing work


Did a rack on a job and had just finished it when they added another conduit... They guys I had helping me still had all our measurements and had a plan on how to do it.. The boss moved us to another part of the plant and had another guy do it.. All our conduits were 1 5/8" apart and he was adding a 3/4" conduit.. He put it in the middle of two of them, didn't match any of the bends or couplings.. Looked like chit.... I asked my one buddy if he got pictures before that piece o'crap was added and he said you bet...


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Here is an example. Lets say I have 6 conductors all on 500 KCMIL all at 150ft long. And Lets say one was 30ft short (who ever order the wire ordered it short) So 30ft was added to the shorter one with butt crimped, high press and shrink tube. And lets say when we megger test the 5 of the same length wire and the all meg out to say between 300 - 330 ohms. Will a spliced wire show a noticebly difference? Reason I asked is will the shrink tube still give the same amount of protection as an unspliced wire. Since megger shoots out high voltage with little to no current and we size wires by the current but then the megger is to test the insulation and not current. It gets confusing here.


I always use the hi volt shrink on 480v butt splices the kind with no heat needed. Its the only way to go


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> I always use the hi volt shrink on 480v butt splices the kind with no heat needed. Its the only way to go


Cold Shrink! We use the stuff on our 13.8 stuff. We had a company come in and evaluate and repair as needed all our load breaks in our vault system.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Cold Shrink! We use the stuff on our 13.8 stuff. We had a company come in and evaluate and repair as needed all our load breaks in our vault system.


Thats it, couldnt remember to save my life....
Ive got to good traits...
1- my memory
2- some thing else i cant remeber


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Ninjazx916r said:


> Here is an example. Lets say I have 6 conductors all on 500 KCMIL all at 150ft long. And Lets say one was 30ft short (who ever order the wire ordered it short) So 30ft was added to the shorter one with butt crimped, high press and shrink tube. And lets say when we megger test the 5 of the same length wire and the all meg out to say between 300 - 330 ohms. Will a spliced wire show a noticebly difference? Reason I asked is will the shrink tube still give the same amount of protection as an unspliced wire. Since megger shoots out high voltage with little to no current and we size wires by the current but then the megger is to test the insulation and not current. It gets confusing here.


Properly installed, all conductors in the same enviroment, I wold think not.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Pipe bending it not an art, it's a technical skill. 

And it's not that difficult to learn and do either. :no:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

xaH said:


> Pipe bending it not an art, it's a technical skill.
> 
> And it's not that difficult to learn and do either. :no:


Lets see some pics of you're so called technical skill that is not difficult to learn or do!


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> Lets see some pics of you're so called technical skill that is not difficult to learn or do!


Was there something I said that was actually inaccurate?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :thumbup:


It's still funny. :laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

xaH said:


> Was there something I said that was actually inaccurate?


I install conduit almost everyday. It is almost never easy. I do work in a different environment than most, but it's all the same. It is art. If you can't appreciate your work, then why do it?

Everything you said was inaccurate.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

piperunner said:


> Well its funny what people think about construction electricians we only run pipe we only dig holes were monkeys . I really dont think you have ever been on a real construction site if you think that .


Actually, the majority of construction electricians do just that. A select few are put on more challenging jobs but most are just assemblers and installers. And that's exactly how it's supposed to be.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RobRoy said:


> then why do it?



Money.

Bills, car payments, mortgages and groceries don't pay for themselves.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

xaH said:


> Actually, the majority of construction electricians do just that. A select few are put on more challenging jobs but most are just assemblers and installers. And that's exactly how it's supposed to be.


Most people out side of construction have no clue what electricians do from the moment we wake up to the time we go to bed. Nor do they need to know. 

It does not affect their lives for the most part.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Money.
> 
> Bills, car payments, mortgages and groceries don't pay for themselves.


I'm in agreement with that. Why go and strain yourself if you don't appreciate the work you create? You could make money flippin burgers. Just saying....


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> I install conduit almost everyday. It is almost never easy. I do work in a different environment than most, but it's all the same. It is art. If you can't appreciate your work, then why do it?
> 
> Everything you said was inaccurate.


Well, that's convincing. :laughing:

Measure distance between offsets, bend offset, install. Measure distance for 90, subtract take up, bend, install. So difficult. :laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Xah, did you not get any sleep? 86 posts in one day! That's gotta be some kind of record.:whistling2:
But I could be wrong, because I also heard that trolls can type with their hands and feet at the same time. :laughing:


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> Xah, did you not get any sleep? 86 posts in one day! That's gotta be some kind of record.:whistling2:


It might be but I think Hax has me beat for one day post count.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Any Plumber can do it.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> Xah, did you not get any sleep? 86 posts in one day! That's gotta be some kind of record.:whistling2:


I had over 200 in one day here.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Hackster said:


> I had over 200 in one day here.


Congratulations?:001_huh:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> I'm in agreement with that. Why go and strain yourself if you don't appreciate the work you create? You could make money flippin burgers. Just saying....


I think pipe work can be an art under certain circunstances, the majority is just a nice installation, then of course there is the trash.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Congratulations?:001_huh:


Thanks buddy.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RobRoy said:


> You could make money flippin burgers. Just saying....


I could but building and programming industrial controls is more money. And I like burgers, I don't want to know how unsanitary they conditions the cook them in is:no: :laughing:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

xaH said:


> It might be but I think Hax has me beat for one day post count.


When I was calling your weird yesterday, I hadn't even realized that you used my name backwards for your username.

Dude, it's time to talk to someone...


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

xaH said:


> Well, that's convincing. :laughing:
> 
> Measure distance between offsets, bend offset, install. Measure distance for 90, subtract take up, bend, install. So difficult. :laughing:











You're theory wouldn't work out too well in this case. This is what I typically work with. I consider myself an artist. My wife is a painter, and we have great art on our walls. She considers conduit bending an art, and I understand why. We can build some pretty cool shít. She always wants me to build something with conduit.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I could but building and programming industrial controls is more money. And I like burgers, I don't want to know how unsanitary they conditions the cook them in is:no: :laughing:


I'm with you on that. Plus, I get paid holidays, so technically, I get paid to flip burgers as well. :thumbup:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

RobRoy said:


>


More pics of wife :thumbup:


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> You're theory wouldn't work out too well in this case. This is what I typically work with. I consider myself an artist.


Whatever makes you happy. :laughing:


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> You're theory wouldn't work out too well in this case. This is what I typically work with. I consider myself an artist. My wife is a painter, and we have great art on our walls. She considers conduit bending an art, and I understand why. We can build some pretty cool shít. She always wants me to build something with conduit.


Definitely not taking away from what you do but there are unions under the fittings.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

A shot for the pipe lovers. :laughing:


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> A shot for the pipe lovers. :laughing:


Is that a prefabbed electric wall?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

No it the side of a big air handler.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> No it the side of a big air handler.


Nothing in that picture required any extraordinary amount of skill.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> A shot for the pipe lovers. :laughing:


Is that screw pipe?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

walkerj said:


> Definitely not taking away from what you do but there are unions under the fittings.


Yes there are. They are there for good reason too. :whistling2:


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> Yes there are. They are there for good reason too. :whistling2:


I guess that's my point. 
If there weren't unions I could see how that would be an incredible task. 
With unions it's just like emt.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

walkerj said:


> I guess that's my point.
> If there weren't unions I could see how that would be an incredible task.
> With unions it's just like emt.


Running 1000s of feet of 1" GRC is NOTHING like running EMT. Please pass some of whatever you've been smoking on tonight if you feel otherwise!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

walkerj said:


> Is that screw pipe?


I don't remember. I just found the shot somebody took while we were touring a mechanical basement. 

That's an older install. If we did the same job today it would be flex and there would be less runs.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> Running 1000s of feet of 1" GRC is NOTHING like running EMT. Please pass some of whatever you've been smoking on tonight if you feel otherwise!


Again, I know what you do is kick ass but that particular shot you posted doesn't prove that it is difficult. 
Some of your others do. 
Let me remind you I am the one that recommended the robroy and piperunner forum. 

Look man I sit behind a computer with my feet kicked up on my desk 90% of the time at work.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

walkerj said:


> I guess that's my point.
> If there weren't unions I could see how that would be an incredible task.
> With unions it's just like emt.

























































Here's a little more detail of what was going on with this project. I use unions. I use them often. Some of the conduit I install, it is impossible to do it without the help of the unys.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

RobRoy is in that niche where he needs to run pipe and know a lot of electrical ****. 

There is a plethora of plants down here. 
There are 1000s of pipe hands that make pipe bending look like cable pulling. 
They all say they are electricians. 
Maybe 50 of them can wire up a 3-way. 
I suppose that is my point?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

walkerj said:


> RobRoy is in that niche where he needs to run pipe and know a lot of electrical ****.
> 
> There is a plethora of plants down here.
> There are 1000s of pipe hands that make pipe bending look like cable pulling.
> ...


It helps your point. 

But then there's guys like me that can also wire up a 4 way. But then again, I also build PLCS, and program/test/calibrate all of our transmitters and other devices that I am installing all of this conduit for. :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> Here's a little more detail of what was going on with this project. I use unions. I use them often. Some of the conduit I install, it is impossible to do it without the help of the unys.


Nice easy work,,Nothing Hard like pulling that romex..:laughing:



Good stuff RobRoy..


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Someone can bend pipe from point A to point B in an hour but looks like crap or someone can bend pipe and know his calculations and looks like crap. It takes an electrician that cares for it's work to make their work look nice. If you don't care it will show in your work. But, then in business wise it matters on how much time it take you to do the work too. Quality & efficiency is important when it comes to finding the right people to do the work.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Tried to add a pic but don't know how. Sad


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Solar is going to create a lot of jobs for those that know motor control. Preventive maintance on the inverter


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Looks like the 17th pipe on the right has a dog leg...:no:

 

:laughing:


Nice job...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

brian john said:


> So what you are saying is this guy has not a clue on how to market himself? Because if he did he’d be working at a firm that can use his skill set, seems his training is going to waste at a firm that specializes in construction.
> 
> I will tell you again, few day to day construction electricians are getting 3-6 dollars over scale, truck to take home and additional none union mandated benefits 2-4 weeks paid vacation. And this is just not at my firm this is across the board for specialists in fire alarm, controls, PLC’s, electrical testing and on and on…
> 
> ...



And I in no means am implying that installing conduit makes a guy an electrician. We all know guys that can run the mess out of pipe but don't understand how actual systems work and how to make them work. I guess my point is guys that have the know how technically should respect the backs and sweat that carry them. At times when I've dealt with guys from Simplex or Johnson or various other control electricians, regardless of what I know, they look down their nose at you. I know based on what they do, also disregarding what I know, they are some smart fellas. So they have my respect. But the respect aint always mutual. Construction electricians are the underpaid ones out of us all, but it still takes intelligence to be cost effective neat and provide an appealing install. So it is discouraging to deal with an arrogant prick that knows what wire to put in the conduit, but when he cant get the fish tape to go thru the conduit he comes whining after five minutes of "effort"


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I love these stupid threads....

I always thought you were'nt a real electrician if you couldn't roll a joint, drink a beer and drive a stick shift at the same time. :thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> I love these stupid threads....
> 
> I always thought you were'nt a real electrician if you couldn't roll a joint, drink a beer and drive a stick shift at the same time. :thumbup:


Don't forget about talking on your work cell and texting your wife that your going to be late cuz you have to look at one last job, all whilst drinking the beer, smoking the joint, and shifting gears in stop and go traffic!:thumbup:


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

I thought you're not a real electrician unless you have at least one dui and you're divorced.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LightsOn81 said:


> And I in no means am implying that installing conduit makes a guy an electrician. We all know guys that can run the mess out of pipe but don't understand how actual systems work and how to make them work. I guess my point is guys that have the know how technically should respect the backs and sweat that carry them. At times when I've dealt with guys from Simplex or Johnson or various other control electricians, regardless of what I know, they look down their nose at you. I know based on what they do, also disregarding what I know, they are some smart fellas. So they have my respect. But the respect aint always mutual. Construction electricians are the underpaid ones out of us all, but it still takes intelligence to be cost effective neat and provide an appealing install. So it is discouraging to deal with an arrogant prick that knows what wire to put in the conduit, but when he cant get the fish tape to go thru the conduit he comes whining after five minutes of "effort"


Our trade has become very diverese, more diverse than it was in 1970 when I started in the trade. Every level of electrician is needed, green helpers to sweep the floor and dig ditches where a machine can't go, to the specialist that do controls and fire alarms. As Rodney says, Can't we all just get along?

As for factory reps, I deal with a lot of them and for some reason they think or are taught that all field electricians are dolts and only they know their gear. I have had a number of discussions where I had to explain to them how their equipment works and why they are wrong. Breaks their hearts. Many times I find I have to prove to them up front I know what I am discussing.

When an factory rep and his engineer just assume I do not understand how GFPEs work before, telling me I am wrong then I have to waste time proving I know what I am doing. Also had factory reps tell customers we should not be allowed to service their gear as I watch them FU*K the duck because they are clueless. Had a rep tell my customer I was wrong, I told the customer the rep was incorrect in what he was doing, after he smoked the transfer coil in an AST the customer let me do all the repairs as Mr. factory watched.

Manufactures are trying to corner this market at 2.5 times the labor rate and 1/2 the time their field tech replaces or phones in the most basic of issues.

NOT ALL BUT SOME FIELD REPS.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> ~CS~


Rainbow coalition? Not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## MaxFuse (Oct 23, 2011)

Conduit bending is an art -if you want it to be. But it is only one of many skills you should master to become a good well rounded electrician.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/kkho54fek8tfb54/SDC10087.JPG

tried to add a pic ,just kept getting the x.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

You are an electrician if you know how electricity works. Understanding the NEC as much as possible will reduce the amount of work you have to tear down and redo when the AHJ don't pass your inspection. If you can bring electricity from point A to point B you are an electrician. The state will certified you after you know how to use the NEC, on a four hour test you demonstrate how to find the codes in the code book, at no time during the test they test you on bending conduit or check a panel if it has any voltage. You can do a simple circuit to more complex circuit which are written in circuit board. I call the installation of the building the Macro Electrician and the Micro Electrician in Circuit board writer to Motor Controls. When it's complex where a ladder diagram is required then it takes more experience, you can still get things going if you know how to use a meter without a diagram but it will take a lot longer. Thats what electrician do, we trouble shoot and process and eliminate to find out where the problem is in the circuit. Electricity conducts in conductor and will not work thru insulator or open circuit.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I think this is an art


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

dronai said:


> I think this is an art


That's very nice. But in the end, it's no more functional than if it wasn't so perfect, if factory bends were used for the larger pipe, etc.

The one thing that stands out about that room is the lack of room for expansion. That would have been more valuable than the neatness, IMO.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Holy smokes. That installation is so clean I have a hard time believing it's real.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Big John said:


> Holy smokes. That installation is so clean I have a hard time believing it's real.


By the look of the floor and the housekeeping pads, it seems either completely fake or a real picture that was very seriously touched up.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Hackster said:


> That's very nice. But in the end, it's no more functional than if it wasn't so perfect, if factory bends were used for the larger pipe, etc.
> 
> The one thing that stands out about that room is the lack of room for expansion. That would have been more valuable than the neatness, IMO.


All those factory bends would've made this project look like what comes out of you @$$!
It would also have hack written all over it. 

Oh, wait a second...:whistling2:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Big John said:


> Holy smokes. That installation is so clean I have a hard time believing it's real.


My son thinks it's computer generated.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hackster said:


> By the look of the floor and the housekeeping pads, it seems either completely fake or a real picture that was very seriously touched up.


 That's exactly what I was thinking. It's just too perfect.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Hackster said:


> That's very nice. But in the end, it's no more functional than if it wasn't so perfect, if factory bends were used for the larger pipe, etc.
> 
> The one thing that stands out about that room is the lack of room for expansion. That would have been more valuable than the neatness, IMO.


One thing that installation _does_ do is encourage others working in / using the space to also do neat work, and to follow procedure / not cut corners - broken window syndrome and all that.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> All those factory bends would've made this project look like what comes out of you @$$!
> It would also have hack written all over it.
> 
> Oh, wait a second...:whistling2:


You've made my point, thank you.

I know you're really into pipe, but let me break the bad news to you, no one cares. The only person who is going to even see that room is a janitor once every few months and another electrician or two. The owners/management wouldn't know the difference between a full stick bent to fit and a factory bend coupled on.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

stuiec said:


> One thing that installation _does_ do is encourage others working in / using the space to also do neat work, and to follow procedure / not cut corners - broken window syndrome and all that.


Yet there is no space on any of the racking for those future people working in there... 

Like I said, the priorities are skewed, IMO.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Didn't Piperunner say they build off of 3D modeling where the layout is a already computer generated ?


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Hackster said:


> Yet there is no space on any of the racking for those future people working in there...
> 
> Like I said, the priorities are skewed, IMO.


I get what you're saying. I think pipe bending is a _craft_, not an art. Those, like Robroy, ought to be proud to be called a Craftsman, as their chosen craft, like art, takes years and skill to perfect.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

stuiec said:


> I get what you're saying. I think pipe bending is a _craft_, not an art. Those, like Robroy, ought to be proud to be called a Craftsman, as their chosen craft, like art, takes years and skill to perfect.


I agree with this 100%.

I just call into question when that craftsmanship becomes a huge waste of money for the customer.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...the craftsmanship is what makes us paid professionals, and the work should reflect that. Anything else is simple an excuse for hackwork IMO


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hackster said:


> ...I just call into question when that craftsmanship becomes a huge waste of money for the customer.


 You must line up all your couplings!


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Saw this one at Knotts Berry Farm, thought that was pretty cool. J-box must be maxed


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Hackster said:


> I agree with this 100%.
> 
> I just call into question when that craftsmanship becomes a huge waste of money for the customer.


Yup. Depends on the site IMO. We have worked in a number of schools in the last couple of years. The ones in the district that had all of the subbed out work overseen by school board electricians were very easy to work in, as standards had been rigorously maintained, and so our price to them was lower than the other district, where 40 years of hackery made work slow and unpredictable.

I imagine plants and the likes would benefit from clean, well planned runs too. Also seen where the boss is paying through the nose for an employee to "show his stuff."


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ...the craftsmanship is what makes us paid professionals, and the work should reflect that. Anything else is simple an excuse for hackwork IMO


Unless that is specifically what the customer wants you are spending their money to inflate your own ego.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

360max said:


> ...the craftsmanship is what makes us paid professionals, and the work should reflect that. Anything else is simple an excuse for hackwork IMO





BBQ said:


> Unless that is specifically what the customer wants you are spending their money to inflate your own ego.


A true Craftsman starts with finding out what the customer needs no? Craftsmanship applies to all wiring methods IMO.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> ...the craftsmanship is what makes us paid professionals, and the work should reflect that. Anything else is simple an excuse for hackwork IMO


No, it's not. Safe, reliable electrical work is what makes us paid professional.

The artistic nature of it has nothing to do with it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

stuiec said:


> A true Craftsman starts with finding out what the customer needs no?


That is usually pretty well determined in the bidding process. It becomes obvious if they want 'art' or just everything to work. 



> Craftsmanship applies to all wiring methods IMO.


One persons idea of craftsmanship is not anothers.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I think you can do both. If you have been doing this for awhile, it doesn't any longer to plan a clean installation, and your just doing what you would typically do.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

dronai said:


> I think this is an art


This is what BIM does. That's what I was talking about Building Information Modeling. You build it in the computers so you can encounter the unforeseen problem to reduce costly mistakes.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Hackster said:


> No, it's not. Safe, reliable electrical work is what makes us paid professional.
> 
> The artistic nature of it has nothing to do with it.


I'll throw in that I haven't run any EMT in over 5 years, except for the work I've done at my house. So, I have the factory 90 option with GRC, but that's more cutting/threading, lost time/production. Plus, I'm an "artist/craftsman".
I'm off to go mountain biking. Carry on gents. :thumbup:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Unless that is specifically what the customer wants you are spending their money to inflate your own ego.


 ego has nothing to do with it BBQ, if an electrician runs a conduit run diagonally across a factory, is that considered savings the customer money, giving the customer what they paid for? BTW, most commercial customers have no idea what a quality install entails because they don't know industry standard. In residential 99% have absolutely no idea.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Earlier when I mentioned using factory 90's for larger pipe, RobRoy said:

"_All those factory bends would've made this project look like what comes out of you @$$!
It would also have hack written all over it._"

Factory 90's provide the same function and safety. The only person that would look down upon factory 90's is another electrician who is looking to bash someone for egotistical reasons. 

There's a difference between "craftsmanship" when it's something on display that everyone who walks past it could appreciate it, and "craftsmanship" when it's only a few people who are ever going to even see it and half of them wouldn't know the difference.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

The only people that going to criticize a badly bent conduit are electricians. Only electricians knows what looks good. Even an electrical engineer has no clue on how to bend pipe, I be darn surprises if they even spent more than 10 minutes reading the NEC. They just design stuff and then when there's an RFI or something, click, click on computer and have the electrician redo the work til it's okay. Majority of the time the blueprint don't even match what is on the actual site. Every solar job I've been on all I hear is foreman complaining about he don't have rooms for all these modules because the roof don't match and skylights all over the place but it's not in the plan.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> BTW, most commercial customers have no idea what a quality install entails because they don't know industry standard. In residential 99% have absolutely no idea.


So if you admit that the customer wouldn't even know the difference, why does it need to be done? I think you cemented BBQ's point, that it's only for the electrician's ego...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> ego has nothing to do with it BBQ....


 I like conduit, and I like careful installs. It gives me heart palpitations to open drop ceilings and see these total spider-webs of MC.

But it's like the joke I made above about couplings lining up: There is a point where that effort serves zero function except to make the electrician feel good about his install. Unless you are specifically being paid to make something look as nice as it can possibly look, it's a waste of time. It'd be like making all your bends concentric. It looks awesome, but it's more labor for no return on the investment. 

I think we need to be realistic about what gets the job done, what best addresses the customers needs, and what will make maintenance and additions easiest.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ego has nothing to do with it BBQ,* if an electrician runs a conduit run diagonally across a factory,* is that considered savings the customer money, giving the customer what they paid for? BTW, most commercial customers have no idea what a quality install entails because they don't know industry standard. In residential 99% have absolutely no idea.


He should be smacked in the head with the left over conduit.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Hackster said:


> You've made my point, thank you.
> 
> I know you're really into pipe, but let me break the bad news to you, no one cares. The only person who is going to even see that room is a janitor once every few months and another electrician or two. The owners/management wouldn't know the difference between a full stick bent to fit and a factory bend coupled on.



And even then what is the electrician going to say? He might say, "That guy used factory 90's, what a hack." And if he does say that, who really cares?


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> You're theory wouldn't work out too well in this case. This is what I typically work with. I consider myself an artist. My wife is a painter, and we have great art on our walls. She considers conduit bending an art, and I understand why. We can build some pretty cool shít. She always wants me to build something with conduit.


That looks like plumber's pipe work. Pinterest!? Really? Got any good cupcake recipes? :laughing:



Hackster said:


> That's very nice. But in the end, it's no more functional than if it wasn't so perfect, if factory bends were used for the larger pipe, etc.
> The one thing that stands out about that room is the lack of room for expansion. That would have been more valuable than the neatness, IMO.


A true tradesman takes pride in his work and neatness is part of it.

*NEC 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work*
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Michigan Master said:


> A true tradesman takes pride in his work and neatness is part of it.
> 
> *NEC 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work*
> Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.


That room could have been done neatly with MC...

The only pride I need to get out of my work is the check. As long as the customer is happy, the installation is safe, and the check clears- I am very proud :thumbup:


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Hackster said:


> That room could have been done neatly with MC...
> 
> The only pride I need to get out of my work is the check. As long as the customer is happy, the installation is safe, and the check clears- I am very proud :thumbup:


It's amazing how much your outlook changes when you go from being an employee to an owner, huh?


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

So I was working last week and I had to install some pipe. I'm really new to conduit bending but was giving a chance to bend some pipe. So I did an box offset to the wall. I did 10 degrees and I just did an inch off the wall so I mulitple 1" x 2 for a 30 degree bend. Well I made a mistake because I forgot about the Deep strut which is 1 5/8" deep. So now in this situation, to be cost effective, I should just wedge anchor the box and force it in and move on or do I want to make it nice and grab another conduit or cut off that 6" piece of bent pipe and redo the bend at 1 5/8" x 2 = 3 1/4" bends at 30 degrees. ???????????????? To be honest if the job is under the water I would just wedge anchor and move on, if it's early on in the job and job is still making money I would take a bit more time and give them what they paid for, on top of that this is above the ceiling and its not expose. Whose going to lift the T-bar to find that bad bent EMT hiding in the corner? That's my thought on conduit bending. Because at the end my boss just want to make money and that's why I'm hired to make these decision so he does not have to. If we don't make money I will be out of work, if it looks f-ugly all the time then I wouldn't be able to prove myself on knowing how to bend pipe. What I want to prove myself is know how to manage time with quality so I can still make safe electrical installation at the same time make money for my boss.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ego has nothing to do with it BBQ,


It has everything to do with it. 



> if an electrician runs a conduit run diagonally across a factory, is that considered savings the customer money, giving the customer what they paid for?


Absolutely It could be, it could also make better sense electrically.



> BTW, most commercial customers have no idea what a quality install entails because they don't know industry standard.


If they care about those things they hire consultants, engineers etc to draw up the plans and the specifications.

If they don't do that and they go on to grind the crap out of the ECs and other trades pricing they get what they are willing to pay for. Most 'commercial' customers fit in this later group.

We have an industrial customer that want everything a certain way, they supply all the material we supply just the labor. For them we make it 'pretty' it is what they want, it is what they are willing to pay for.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Hackster said:


> Factory 90's provide the same function and safety. The only person that would look down upon factory 90's is another electrician who is looking to bash someone for egotistical reasons.


When you do multi million dollar public works jobs, with an onsite inspector and owner rep, and use crates of factory 90* bends, you are going to be sent packing.
They want their monies worth. They want runs planned. They want "eye candy."
There are also considerations, for example refineries, where everyone must plan their runs. Sparkies, fitters, structure, etc.
If you need large benders for kicks and such to accomplish this, a good guy can saze the company money eliminating the cost of crates of 4" GRC 90*'s. They aren't cheap you know.
If your talking about concealed locations in Ma and Pa Kettles attic, so be it, I agree.
If your so bad you need 1/2" factory 90* because your trunk won"t hold a bender, then I suppose you do what you must.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> if an electrician runs a conduit run diagonally across a factory, is that considered savings the customer money, giving the customer what they paid for?





brian john said:


> He should be smacked in the head with the left over conduit.


Not you too Brian??? :laughing:

Throw away money just so the ceiling of a factory has no diagonal pipe runs?

Add circuit length just so it runs perpendicular? 

Usually we will run with the building, it is often faster that way but we have been know to go diagonal when the distance is great enough.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Michigan Master said:


> That looks like plumber's pipe work. Pinterest!? Really? Got any good cupcake recipes? :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wife loves Pinterest. She also makes amazing cupcakes. She also knows that I could build something similar to this using GRC conduit, hence the email title, "Make this hunny"
Don't be jealous that my misses has faith in me. :thumbup:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> My wife loves Pinterest. She also makes amazing cupcakes. She also knows that I could build something similar to this using GRC conduit, hence the email title, "Hunny make this"
> Don't be jealous that my misses has faith in me. :thumbup:


 
Thought you went biking ?? I have to f... work !! Later dudes


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

dronai said:


> Thought you went biking ?? I have to f... work !! Later dudes


Eating my breakfast burrito. :thumbup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

big2bird said:


> ...They want "eye candy..."


 If the customer is specifically paying for it, then of course you do it.

But I would bet money we have all been in situations where guys were being anal retentive about their work and the customer was definitely not paying for that, and it wasn't adding any value to the installation. I used to be one of those guys.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Not you too Brian??? :laughing:
> 
> Throw away money just so the ceiling of a factory has no diagonal pipe runs?
> 
> ...


As the factory grows, youv'e created a giant PITA for everyone to deal with and follow.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Big John said:


> If the customer is specifically paying for it, then of course you do it.
> 
> But I would bet money we have all been in situations where guys were being anal retentive about their work and the customer was definitely not paying for that, and it wasn't adding any value to the installation. I used to be one of those guys.


It boils down to learning when to let go. Sometimes it bites you in the azz. 
Ever heard of a "Berg Bundle?"


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Not you too Brian??? :laughing:
> 
> Throw away money just so the ceiling of a factory has no diagonal pipe runs?
> 
> ...


 I am a professional, I try to let my work reflect that, it is also what the customer is paying for. They can go to Craigslist and 'get what they pay for'.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

big2bird said:


> As the factory grows, youv'e created a giant PITA for everyone to deal with and follow.


 Again, it goes back to what did you get paid to do? If the customer paid for chicken-chit, they ain't getting chicken-salad. We may be able to up-sell them to chicken salad, and if so, awesome, because chicken salad is delicious. :laughing:


> ...Ever heard of a "Berg Bundle?"


 Nah, we don't have them here on the east coast.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Big John said:


> Again, it goes back to what did you get paid to do? If the customer paid for chicken-chit, they ain't getting chicken-salad. We may be able to up-sell them to chicken salad, and if so, awesome, because chicken salad is delicious. :laughing: Nah, we don't have them here on the east coast.


I understand. I would not hesitate to do a diagonal run U/G in that facility. I would also advise them that down the road, it will be detrimental later.
How would it look if the carpenter said, who cares if the walls are level. It's still a room? 
I fire anyone working my jobs without a level in their pouch. Level and straight is NOT any slower than eyeballing. If it is, find another trade.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> I am a professional, I try to let my work reflect that, it is also what the customer is paying for. They can go to Craigslist and 'get what they pay for'.


You work for a contractor right?

If so you have nothing to do with what materials will be used and what 'level of quality' is to be met.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Just a quick question here: if you ever have to hire a contractor to work on your own home, do you tell him how you want it done, or do you just give him a blank check to do it however he feels it should be done? :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Michigan Master said:


> *NEC 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work*
> Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.


The NFPAs manual of style lists both neat and workmanlike as vague and possibly unenforceable.

See page 9 and Table 2.2.2.3 Possible Unenforceable and Vague Terms

www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/mos1-3.pdf‎


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

xaH said:


> Just a quick question here: if you ever have to hire a contractor to work on your own home, do you tell him how you want it done, or do you just give him a blank check to do it however he feels it should be done? :whistling2:


If you hire a contractor, it usually means you do not know how to do it. SO, you rely on his expertise to do it correctly. True?


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

big2bird said:


> If you hire a contractor, it usually means you do not know how to do it. SO, you rely on his expertise to do it correctly. True?


You didn't answer my question at all. :no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> As the factory grows, youv'e created a giant PITA for everyone to deal with and follow.


Yes, maybe so, but again that is up to the person paying the bills is it not?

Maybe they know the next project coming is demolishing that area, or maybe they just want to save money today. It happens..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

xaH said:


> Just a quick question here: if you ever have to hire a contractor to work on your own home, do you tell him how you want it done, or do you just give him a blank check to do it however he feels it should be done? :whistling2:


Blank check, they are the professionals after all.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

xaH said:


> You didn't answer my question at all. :no:


I'll try this way. If a homeowner wants a bath fan in a kitchen wired knob and tube, it ain't happening.:laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Yes, maybe so, but again that is up to the person paying the bills is it not?
> 
> Maybe they know the next project coming is demolishing that area, or maybe they just want to save money today. It happens..


In 35 years, no one has asked me to do that, so I wouldn't know.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Blank check, they are the professionals after all.


Come on. That is what contractual documents are for . Scope of work tells all.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

There's time where I don't really care for my work. When it comes to expose work I try to make it nice and neat, when it's above the ceiling & temp ligthing/power that is never going to be seen or will be taken down, I look at the most efficient way. Contractor will thank me for that and in today's market, you have to understand business. You have to understand quality and efficiency goes well together. Make your work looks good and make it profitable and you will have a job for a long time.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Not you too Brian??? :laughing:
> 
> Throw away money just so the ceiling of a factory has no diagonal pipe runs?
> 
> ...


Pitiful...:no:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Ninjazx916r said:


> There's time where I don't really care for my work. When it comes to expose work I try to make it nice and neat, when it's above the ceiling & temp ligthing/power that is never going to be seen or will be taken down, I look at the most efficient way. Contractor will thank me for that and in today's market, you have to understand business. You have to understand quality and efficiency goes well together. Make your work looks good and make it profitable and you will have a job for a long time.


A reasonable answer. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The NFPAs manual of style lists both neat and workmanlike as vague and possibly unenforceable.
> 
> See page 9 and Table 2.2.2.3 Possible Unenforceable and Vague Terms
> 
> www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/mos1-3.pdf‎


Yup the style manual is unenforceable...:laughing:


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is a scenario: 

Let's say we have to do underground work. Let's say NEC, nevermind forget NEC, let's say AHJ gave you couple of options: You have to dig 24" deep before the conduit or you can dig 6" deep with 2" of concrete or 18" deep with base rock. 

So you decided to dig 24" deep because you didn't want to buy concrete or base rocks. Then it ended up costing you more because the dirt is lime treated so it took you 2 days just to dig the dirt where if you chose to buy concrete you be done in four hours. 

The point is either way you do it, electricity going to flow but why waste time on something that's going to be bury or conceal? You can be proud that you dig 24" of dirt but hey don't work harder, work smarter!


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

big2bird said:


> I'll try this way. If a homeowner wants a bath fan in a kitchen wired knob and tube, it ain't happening.:laughing:


I'm not talking about blatantly violating the code to save a buck. 

Let me use a few examples to illustrate:

Do you install a chilled water system in your home for central A/C because it's better and will last more than a lifetime?

Do you install a commercial boiler in your home with Powerflame burner because it's better?

Do you put 50 year shingles in your roof when 30 year shingles will suffice? 

Do you use 15" walls for your foundation when 12" is more than adequate? 

I think you see where I'm going with this. If you need to make any of those major decisions about home improvement or homebuilding, you do your homework first and consult and look around before making a big decision. I guarantee nobody here just trusts a contractor blindly to make those decisions for him. :no:


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Expose work 90 degree EMT with a strap within 3' from a box (labor hour 1 minute)
Conceal work 93 degree EMT with a strap within 3' from a box (labor hour 10 seconds)
Both up to code!

As simple as I can describe it!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I think we need to be realistic about what gets the job done, what best addresses the customers needs, and what will make maintenance and additions easiest.


That's what I have to do every day, since I actually have to deal with industrial customers and engineers and bean counters all freaking day. I also have some of the finest electricians and control panel builders. If they run rigid it looks good, they run MC it looks good, cable tray, wire way whatever looks perfectly fine. They use pre bends sometimes, they don't fret little stuff when running conduit. The control guys build great cabinets no matter who's components they are using, they don't need overpriced Allen Bradley and Phoenix Contact crap. They all also pull off great design build projects and customers keep coming back so I'm happy.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

brian john said:


> As for factory reps, I deal with a lot of them and for some reason they think or are taught that all field electricians are dolts and only they know their gear. I have had a number of discussions where I had to explain to them how their equipment works and why they are wrong. Breaks their hearts. Many times I find I have to prove to them up front I know what I am discussing.
> 
> When an factory rep and his engineer just assume I do not understand how GFPEs work before, telling me I am wrong then I have to waste time proving I know what I am doing. Also had factory reps tell customers we should not be allowed to service their gear as I watch them FU*K the duck because they are clueless. Had a rep tell my customer I was wrong, I told the customer the rep was incorrect in what he was doing, after he smoked the transfer coil in an AST the customer let me do all the repairs as Mr. factory watched.
> 
> NOT ALL BUT SOME FIELD REPS.


I have been a rep before. They did teach me that 1, the customer is not always right. Usually they have no idea.
It was my job to guide the customer. Not tell the customer.

I also learned most are dolts. I would go to big companies with high paid guys with questions a first year should know.
So , we learn to teach as well.




Hackster said:


> You've made my point, thank you.
> 
> I know you're really into pipe, but let me break the bad news to you, no one cares. The only person who is going to even see that room is a janitor once every few months and another electrician or two. The owners/management wouldn't know the difference between a full stick bent to fit and a factory bend coupled on.


I care and so do many people.
I care about what concealed work looks like.
I care and you don't. It is that simple. 



Hackster said:


> Yet there is no space on any of the racking for those future people working in there...
> Like I said, the priorities are skewed, IMO.


How do you not know that half of those conduits are spares?
Seems like excellent planning to me.



Hackster said:


> The only pride I need to get out of my work is the check.


Then you have little pride. In yourself and your abilities.
I take pride in everything I do.



BBQ said:


> Throw away money just so the ceiling of a factory has no diagonal pipe runs?
> Add circuit length just so it runs perpendicular?
> Usually we will run with the building, it is often faster that way but we have been know to go diagonal when the distance is great enough.


Someone said earlier that you would screw up further installations by installing your conduit that way. I agree and would be cussing the idiot that ran that conduit that way.

There is something to be said regrading cost. IMO, this type of cost saving is stupid and hack. :laughing:



xaH said:


> You didn't answer my question at all. :no:


You and Hax talk exactly alike. Exactly alike.
I still think you both are the same person.


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

When I was at school, classmates yelling at each other, when I'm at work journeyman yelling at each other, I'm in the forumn, people getting yell at with words. So I have to add that you're not an electrician if you dont' have a DUI, divorced and if you can't YELL!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Many of you guys are very entertaining. :laughing:

_*We are the electricians damn it, the universe needs to swirl around us and our craftsmanship.*_


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Any 20 year old kid that can tie his shoes can bend pipe and make it look good.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Goldagain said:


> Any 20 year old kid that can tie his shoes can bend pipe and make it look good.



Truer words have not been spoken on this topic.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Bending pipe and runnin pipe are two different things entirely. The joker who installed this could bend a 90 in 1/2" emt just fine. He didn't know how to support it properly (I removed over 70'+ with no supports except connectors) or route it so it made sense when pulling wire was concerned.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> You and Hax talk exactly alike. Exactly alike.
> I still think you both are the same person.


I'm far more handsome than Hax.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

360max said:


> ego has nothing to do with it BBQ, if an electrician runs a conduit run diagonally across a factory, is that considered savings the customer money, giving the customer what they paid for? BTW, most commercial customers have no idea what a quality install entails because they don't know industry standard. In residential 99% have absolutely no idea.


Oh Yes it does 360,,,,But it is their ego that gets hurt, not that of a true professional like yourself.

When they see posts like this they cry like little girls...:laughing:
They must defend the fact that they're the ones who have lowered the standards so that they will not be excluded from the electrical trade because they're poor mechanics,So they call the excellent pipe work in this post a waste of the clients money , and then they panic when someone points out 110.12 and they will even go as for as the NEC style book to defend their poor work habits,,,Why is that quote in the NEC style book?,,,Because someone who was a poor mechanic got enough power inside the NFPA to put that silly statement in there.

Here is the most feared words by poor mechanics in the NEC

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment
shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.

Looks very clear to me....

These guys must drag the electrical trade down to their level of skill otherwise they would never make in the field....:yes:


.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

John Valdes, it's easy when you are only speaking from the position of a union employee... I know from experience on both sides.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Harry makes so much more sense when he's sober.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

xaH said:


> Harry makes so much more sense when he's sober.


:whistling2::laughing:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

BBQ said:


> The NFPAs manual of style lists both neat and workmanlike as vague and possibly unenforceable.
> 
> See page 9 and Table 2.2.2.3 Possible Unenforceable and Vague Terms
> 
> www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/mos1-3.pdf‎


*NEC Style Manual*

*Unenforceable Terms.* The NEC shall not contain references or requirements that are unenforceable or vague. The terms contained in Table 3.2.1 shall be reviewed in context, and, if the resulting requirement is unenforceable or vague, the term shall not be used.

*Mandatory Rules.* Shall, shall not, and shall not be indicate mandatory NEC rules.

*NEC 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work*
Electrical equipment _shall_ be installed in a _neat_ and _workmanlike_ manner.

I guess it comes down to NEC 90.4. 

Likely the AHJ will pass a diagonal conduit run, it'll be your problem during the next installation when it's in your way no matter where you go. If not your problem, the next guy will be calling you all kinds four-letter of names.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Michigan Master said:


> *NEC 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work*
> I guess it comes down to NEC 90.4.


Inspectors that use either need to take their ball and go home and pick up an app for burger king along the way. Thank you very much, don't come to my site again. :thumbsup:


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> Inspectors that use either need to take their ball and go home and pick up an app for burger king along the way. Thank you very much, don't come to my site again. :thumbsup:


If they're pulling that one on you it's probably cause you made them mad at some point and they're trying to stick it to you. :whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm sure I've made a few mad. I don't take ****, do your job correctly or GTF off my site and I'll be talking to your supervisor. You are there to inspect to written, adopted, and enforceable codes, not make stuff up or push your personal ideas.


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## Blaer (Mar 15, 2013)

Nice trick,mounting the bender in the pipe vise on the truck. I'll have to try that.

No need to be a 'man' to bend pipe. I do it all the time. It is a 'skill,' and takes time to perfect the finer points.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I'm sure I've made a few mad. I don't take ****, do your job correctly or GTF off my site and I'll be talking to your supervisor. You are there to inspect to written, adopted, and enforceable codes, not make stuff up or push your personal ideas.


110.12 is enforceable until it is removed from the code,The nec style book is not the code and means nothing.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> The nec style book is not the code and means nothing.


So the time I had an inspector try to fail a job cause there wasn't housekeeping pads under all the gear citing the "workman like manner" BS I should have just said ok and ripped everything out and made the customer spend unnecessary money huh? 

F that, that is a contradiction right there that can be argued. The job was then passed exactly the way it was. Never saw that dumb ass again, I think he had pulled one to many things like that and the city got tired of the complaints.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

I technically know how to do every bend. Saddles, offsets, kicks etc.. But what I struggle with is visualizing how to bend multi bend conduit runs.

I typically grab a piece of wire and bend the wire the way the pipe should look. Helps but I'm not the quickest.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> So the time I had an inspector try to fail a job cause there wasn't housekeeping pads under all the gear citing the "workman like manner" BS I should have just said ok and ripped everything out and made the customer spend unnecessary money huh?
> 
> F that, that is a contradiction right there that can be argued. The job was then passed exactly the way it was. Never saw that dumb ass again, I think he had pulled one to many things like that and the city got tired of the complaints.


What part of the code requires housekeeping pads?:blink::laughing:

And WTF are they..?:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> So the time I had an inspector try to fail a job cause there wasn't housekeeping pads under all the gear citing the "workman like manner" BS I should have just said ok and ripped everything out and made the customer spend unnecessary money huh?
> 
> F that, that is a contradiction right there that can be argued. The job was then passed exactly the way it was. Never saw that dumb ass again, I think he had pulled one to many things like that and the city got tired of the complaints.


110.12 is for stuff that is installed,Not for stuff that is missing so if he cited 110.12 because something is missing then he is an idiot.:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

They are little slabs you sometimes see poured under switchboards, MCC's, large floor mount transformers. Poured on top of the existing slab. I wasn't about to rip out a whole gear lineup for nothing :no: 

Customer was pretty upset with the inspector for good reason. I don't think we have ever done another permitted job for the customer either, they had enough BS.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> That's what I have to do every day, since I actually have to deal with industrial customers and engineers and bean counters all freaking day. I also have some of the finest electricians and control panel builders. If they run rigid it looks good, they run MC it looks good, cable tray, wire way whatever looks perfectly fine. They use pre bends sometimes, they don't fret little stuff when running conduit. The control guys build great cabinets no matter who's components they are using, they don't need overpriced Allen Bradley and Phoenix Contact crap. They all also pull off great design build projects and customers keep coming back so I'm happy.



Well lets see some of your work put up some photos of you tray work control work and that rigid conduit work . Some newly installed work 
were interested in seeing whats inside your cabinets if its not Allen Bradley .


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The current favorite PAC, automation direct p3000. Panel guys love them, customers/engineers love them, great price considering the power and standard features. Kinda a small job, I saw some 5 and 11 slot racks coming in the other day, probably expansion I/O for some SCADA cabinets.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hackster said:


> By the look of the floor and the housekeeping pads, it seems either completely fake or a real picture that was very seriously touched up.





dronai said:


> My son thinks it's computer generated.


 ...its real, thats how professionals run conduit.:thumbup:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> The current favorite PAC, automation direct p3000. Panel guys love them, customers/engineers love them, great price considering the power and standard features. Kinda a small job, I saw some 5 and 11 slot racks coming in the other day, probably expansion I/O for some SCADA cabinets.


nice job Jlarson, real neat, clean and professional


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Hackster said:


> By the look of the floor and the housekeeping pads, it seems either completely fake or a real picture that was very seriously touched up.


That is computer graphics.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Blaer said:


> Nice trick,mounting the bender in the pipe vise on the truck. I'll have to try that.


That's how I did a water tank farm one winter right after, a snow/hail/ice/sleet storm, fell at at just the right elevation that the weather couldn't make up its mind what to drop on us. Whole site was dirt and there was nowhere that wasn't either ice or muck to bend. 

The painter had the pump room taken over to keep all the epoxy from freezing too :laughing:


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## keepdry (Jul 24, 2012)

You can't work here unless you can bend conduit.


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

*u pipe it u pull it*

nothing like 300' runs with 300 degree in bends and someone else has to pull the wire.What happen to the days of u pipe it u pull it


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

keepdry said:


> You can't work here unless you can bend conduit.


So you guys don't have any apprentices? Gotta learn how to do it somewhere donchaknow.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Running pipe is one of the easiest task an electrician does. We should just let the laborers do it.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Running pipe is one of the easiest task an electrician does. We should just let the laborers do it.


Come out to one of my jobs for a week. I am willing to bet your attitude will change drastically.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

RobRoy said:


> Come out to one of my jobs for a week. I am willing to bet your attitude will change drastically.


I bet you have long hair tatoos and smoke pot.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> Come out to one of my jobs for a week. I am willing to bet your attitude will change drastically.


If someone spent six months working with you would they know how to run pipe decently?

I bet they would.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> I bet you have long hair tatoos and smoke pot.


I don't smoke pot, I don't have long hair, and my tattoos can only be seen when I'm without a shirt on. Nice stereotype though. I wasn't insulting you. I was stating that I install conduit at a gas plant, and oil facilities daily. There's nothing easy about it. When I am building PLCS in my air conditioned shop, now that's what I call easy.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Dude, please get over yourself.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If someone spent six months working with you would they know how to run pipe decently?
> 
> I bet they would.


You bet your ass they would. I am a very good teacher. I could have somebody if they wanted to learn, run pipe decently. Back to the easy part though. Where I work, there are always soooo many obstacles, and soooo many classification changes, that you must really pay close attention to what you are doing. :thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Hackster said:


> Dude, please get over yourself.


I did earlier. Right over the handlebars of my mountain bike. :laughing:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

RobRoy said:


> You bet your ass they would. I am a very good teacher. I could have somebody if they wanted to learn, run pipe decently. Back to the easy part though. Where I work, there are always soooo many obstacles, and soooo many classification changes, that you must really pay close attention to what you are doing. :thumbup:


So you agree its easy, you can teach someone in a few months.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> So you agree its easy, you can teach someone in a few months.


No. Someone green, I highly doubt it. I'm assuming it would be somebody with some sort of experience working with conduit. How many of you run GRC daily? I know of only a select few on this forum.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

keepdry said:


> You can't work here unless you can bend conduit.


And you can't work here unless you can disassemble and reassemble a Bolted Pressure Switch, repairing as you go. 

What's your point you can't do surgery unless you go to medical school most jobs have some sort of requirement even laborers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> No. Someone green, I highly doubt it. I'm assuming it would be somebody with some sort of experience working with conduit. How many of you run GRC daily? I know of only a select few on this forum.


I use to do lots of rigid and that's why I do what I do now, not because I couldn't, but because it is a bore, dirty, oily and generally construction sites.
NOT FOR ME:thumbsup:

6 weeks to 6 months and a good mechanically inclined individual should be able to do pipe adequatly.


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## natural (Sep 6, 2011)

Robroy you do good work. We do control wiring and run the pipe for the cable we pull. It's mostly retrofits and it is not easy to do. Pipe running is easy if you are just using 30 degree bends and multipliers for your offsets but if you run into obstacles where you have to use trig to bend pipe I would imagine most that call it easy would fail.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

natural said:


> Robroy you do good work. We do control wiring and run the pipe for the cable we pull. It's mostly retrofits and it is not easy to do. Pipe running is easy if you are just using 30 degree bends and multipliers for your offsets but if you run into obstacles where you have to use trig to bend pipe I would imagine most that call it easy would fail.


This is a skill set that is required for some to make it in their choosen field. Some will excell at it others will do it adequatly. I enjoy seeing quality pipe work but like all we do it is not that complicated or there would be smarter guys posting on this site.


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## natural (Sep 6, 2011)

There are some very intelligent people that post on this site and I would think you are probably one of them. I take a lot of pride in the work that I do and that's what separates me from the people that don't care. I get paid a professional wage and I do professional work. I can assure you there are many college educated employees that are much less skilled I deal with everyday and are viewed intellectually superior.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

natural said:


> There are some very intelligent people that post on this site and I would think you are probably one of them. I take a lot of pride in the work that I do and that's what separates me from the people that don't care. I get paid a professional wage and I do professional work. I can assure you there are many college educated employees that are much less skilled I deal with everyday and are viewed intellectually superior.


And often as not they make less than we do. College is not all it is cracked up to be in many cases.

In my case it is not intelligence, it is pure luck, I have been in the right places at the right time and been exposed to a wide variety of the trade.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

If I had a choice of doing industrial electrical construction or electrical testing / breaker & switchgear work for me its a no brainer. Construction
is what I would choose.
I just told a nationally known switchgear company company that that I was not interisted in working for them . I have been doing breaker and switchgear maintenance work for almost 20 years and it some of boring and mind numing work I have ever done.
I told my coworker that I will tuff it out in my preasent job but if something happens here I will not be seeking a job in the breaker and switchgear business.

LC


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> I bet you have long hair tatoos and smoke pot.


Why don't you take a chill pill guy. Rob isn't a long haired hippie pot smoker. Hell, my hair is longer than his. He is just good at his job, and proud of it. At least he puts pictures of his work up on this site even though people are going to try to pick it apart. He's also laid back as hell, has a cute wife and cool kids, so why don't you go toke up a bit, relax, and get over yourself Bucky.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Why don't you take a chill pill guy. Rob isn't a long haired hippie pot smoker. Hell, my hair is longer than his. He is just good at his job, and proud of it. At least he puts pictures of his work up on this site even though people are going to try to pick it apart. He's also laid back as hell, has a cute wife and cool kids, so why don't you go toke up a bit, relax, and get over yourself Bucky.


Don't forget about how he can put down a bottle of whatever that cinnamon whiskey we drank was. Gotta give them something to critique me on. Might as well let em think I'm a raging alcoholic! Lol


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> Running pipe is one of the easiest task an electrician does. We should just let the laborers do it.


...sub it out to the plumbers


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> Don't forget about how he can put down a bottle of whatever that *cinnamon whiskey* we drank was. Gotta give them something to critique me on. Might as well let me think I'm a raging alcoholic! Lol


What???


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Why don't you take a chill pill guy. *Rob isn't a long haired hippie pot smoker*. Hell, my hair is longer than his. He is just good at his job, and proud of it. At least he puts pictures of his work up on this site even though people are going to try to pick it apart. He's also laid back as hell, has a cute wife and cool kids, so why don't you go toke up a bit, relax, and get over yourself Bucky.


Not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

brian john said:


> What???


Fireball. It's cinnamon whiskey, and is awesome when you mix 1 shot of Fireball and 1 shot of Wild Turkey 151. :thumbup: If I wasn't on my motorcycle I would have drank Rob under the table. :whistling2:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> So you agree its easy, you can teach someone in a few months.


nice trolling :boat:...........................


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Fireball. It's cinnamon whiskey, and is awesome when you mix 1 shot of Fireball and 1 shot of Wild Turkey 151. :thumbup: If I wasn't on my motorcycle I would have drank Rob under the table. :whistling2:


You're probably right. I don't drink too often. :drink::drink:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

I only drink on two occasions. When I'm with some one,












































And when I'm by myself.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Why don't you take a chill pill guy. Rob isn't a long haired hippie pot smoker. Hell, my hair is longer than his. He is just good at his job, and proud of it. At least he puts pictures of his work up on this site even though people are going to try to pick it apart. He's also laid back as hell, has a cute wife and cool kids, so why don't you go toke up a bit, relax, and get over yourself Bucky.


 
Yeah, Gold told me I have a girls name. I'm sure if he was standing in front of me he wouldn't say it because he would loose a few teeth. :laughing:
Got to love internet tough guys.

Rob, just enjoys his job, and is proud of his work.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

dronai said:


> Yeah, Gold told me I have a girls name. I'm sure if he was standing in front of me he wouldn't say it because he would loose a few teeth. :laughing:
> Got to love internet tough guys.
> 
> Rob, just enjoys his job, and is proud of his work.


Ehh, it's better than flippin burgers. I've never worked at a restaurant, so I wouldn't really know. :whistling2:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> Ehh, it's better than flippin burgers. I've never worked at a restaurant, so I wouldn't really know. :whistling2:


Flippin burgers is a hard job...anything in the fast food industry is.

We think we have it crappy...there is never a grateful customer, never a nice boss, and your pay will always suck!

Whenever I have a kid ask me about what they should do for work, I tell them to go do fast food for at least a few months. It will make you appreciate what you end up doing next!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Switched said:


> Flippin burgers is a hard job...anything in the fast food industry is.
> 
> We think we have it crappy...there is never a grateful customer, never a nice boss, and your pay will always suck!
> 
> Whenever I have a kid ask me about what they should do for work, I tell them to go do fast food for at least a few months. It will make you appreciate what you end up doing next!


I spent many years doing that part time nights when the kids were youngens.:laughing:

It's hard fast work while you get paid chit and the owner rakes it in,your right every kid should spend at least a year working in that business it will teach then how to work,team work,showing up on time and such,and motivated them to move on to something that will make them a good living...


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Running pipe is one of the easiest task an electrician does. We should just let the laborers do it.


Yep, Give em a box of plumbing fittings, and turn em loose.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hackster said:


> So if you admit that the customer wouldn't even know the difference, why does it need to be done? I think you cemented BBQ's point, that it's only for the electrician's ego...


I didn't cement BBQ point at all, just because the customer doesn't know industry standard does not give the right for professionals to take advantage of them. Quote them _*your*_ price for a professional installation, and give them a professional installation.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Why don't you take a chill pill guy. Rob isn't a long haired hippie pot smoker. Hell, my hair is longer than his. He is just good at his job, and proud of it. At least he puts pictures of his work up on this site even though people are going to try to pick it apart. He's also laid back as hell, has a cute wife and cool kids, so why don't you go toke up a bit, relax, and get over yourself Bucky.


he is just trolling


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

360max said:


> he is just trolling this site because he and hax needs company now and then


Now look, if your gonna make comments like these don't go crying to Dennis or Speedy again when your feelings get hurt.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> he is just trolling this site because he and hax needs company now and then


This post that you made is pretty much the definition of trolling. It's off topic, it's unnecessary, and you made it for no other reason than to incite trouble.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hackster said:


> This post that you made is pretty much the definition of trolling. It's off topic, it's unnecessary, and you made it for no other reason than to incite trouble.


no, its just pointing out the facts. I actually changed it prior to your post in an effort to 'tone' it down, it doesn't change the fact its trolling


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> no, its just pointing out the facts. I actually changed it prior to your post in an effort to 'tone' it down, it doesn't change the fact its trolling


Yet again, you are trolling as you take this thread even more off topic. You've succeeded in your goal.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Everyone trolls on this site. It just so happens that a select few are chosen to be banned for it. :whistling2:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> Now look, if your gonna make comments like these don't go crying to Dennis or Speedy again when your feelings get hurt.


 :sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> :sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


And another...


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hackster said:


> Yet again, you are trolling as you take this thread even more off topic. You've succeeded in your goal.


you work for FOX News? Spin it


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> Running pipe is one of the easiest task an electrician does. *We should just let the laborers do it.*


*
*
I guess pulling wire fits in the same boat? Install switches? What about receptacles? Meter base? Terminating too?


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

360max said:


> you work for FOX News? Spin it


And another off topic post with no other goal than to continue the trouble that you started.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Dude, get over it. It's just electrical work. It's not art. Yeah, it requires skill to install. Nobody is disputing that. But it's not this high and mighty thing that some of you guys make it out to be.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hackster said:


> And another off topic post with no other goal than to continue the trouble that you started.


last word is yours Hack, take care


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## cwsims84 (Jan 21, 2012)

There is something to be said about good looking pipe bending. It def shows the difference between someone who is skilled and willing to take the time to make things look good.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Im so happy when my pipe is able to line up with the holes I make in the boxes.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Hackster said:


> Yet again, you are trolling as you take this thread even more off topic. You've succeeded in your goal.


Hey, you don't know where I can find a ballast for a Halo recessed HPS 100 watt fixture do you? :laughing::laughing:


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

xaH said:


> Dude, get over it. It's just electrical work. It's not art. Yeah, it requires skill to install. Nobody is disputing that. But it's not this high and mighty thing that some of you guys make it out to be.


 
you never get repeat customers


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

acmax said:


> you never get repeat customers


I have installed first rate gerbage and get called back. Customer dont know what it looks like.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

acmax said:


> you never get repeat customers



If you insist. :jester:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

xaH said:


> Everyone trolls on this site. It just so happens that a select few are chosen to be banned for it. :whistling2:


Not everyone.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

walkerj said:


> I guess that's my point.
> If there weren't unions I could see how that would be an incredible task.
> With unions it's just like emt.


Here's a better shot for you WalkerJ.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Thats very Artsy Rob.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> Here's a better shot for you WalkerJ.


Hah! I see a crooked pipe you hack!:laughing::laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Thats very Artsy Rob.


Why thank you kind sir. That just made my day. :thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Switched said:


> Hah! I see a crooked pipe you hack!:laughing::laughing:


My level was broken that day. :whistling2:

I told that to my boss one day, and his retort was, 
"It's going to be broken if you keep talkin...."


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

RobRoy said:


> My level was broken that day. :whistling2:


Well......truth be told, I forgot mine on a job recently. Went back to finish up.....just went ahead and repaired it. I just couldn't live with what my eyeball, must have been the lazy one, thought was level.:laughing::laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Switched said:


> Well......truth be told, I forgot mine on a job recently. Went back to finish up.....just went ahead and repaired it. I just couldn't live with what my eyeball, must have been the lazy one, thought was level.:laughing::laughing:


A lot of jobs I have to do, the pipes around my conduits aren't level, so I use my digital stabila levels and match them up. Just last week, I mounted an enclosure that was 4° off level to match the back panel. I posted a pic in my "typical day in the life of an oilfield electrician", and not one person commented on it. :whistling2:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

What kind of benders do you use out in the field? (Besides hand benders)


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I use the bender on the pipe vise on my bumper. Makes real ugly big bends. Works tho.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Switched said:


> What kind of benders do you use out in the field? (Besides hand benders)


Here's some of my army. 










This is what I mostly use.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Is that 882 or 884 easy to use? I have never used one, but I need to get a bender for 1-1/4" to 2" rigid, and they don't seem to be priced that bad, or require power.

Edit: 880 is what I meant....on eBay.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Switched said:


> Is that 882 or 884 easy to use? I have never used one, but I need to get a bender for 1-1/4" to 2" rigid, and they don't seem to be priced that bad, or require power.


I like using it.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

How is it getting used to it? 

It starts the bend in the middle of the conduit, correct?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Switched said:


> How is it getting used to it?
> 
> It starts the bend in the middle of the conduit, correct?


It takes a little bit of practice. Mines electric, so it does require power.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

OK, I concede. Pipe bending is an art.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...nice lump hammer to pound conduit off shoe :laughing:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Anyone ever use the GB Cyclone?

http://www.toolup.com/gardner-bende...wered-bender-complete-12-2-emt-rigid-imc.aspx

Not a bad price for a new bender.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

xaH said:


> OK, I concede. Pipe bending is an art.


Let's see some of your 200 amp service changes or kitchen can remodel layouts. That sh¡ts like p0rn and crack around here


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Let's see some of your 200 amp service changes or kitchen can remodel layouts. That sh¡ts like p0rn and crack around here



Sure thing.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

xaH said:


> Sure thing.


You got that eye roll thing down. You must be an old pro. :rollseyes: :rollseyes:

Am I doing it right?

Edit: I'm on my iPhone so I don't know if they're actually showing up or if I'm just typing out "eye roll". I will check back on it in the morning


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Switched said:


> Anyone ever use the GB Cyclone?
> 
> http://www.toolup.com/gardner-bender_b2000_cyclone-electric-powered-bender-complete-12-2-emt-rigid-imc.aspx
> 
> Not a bad price for a new bender.


Yup, I like them


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RobRoy said:


>


Two things. 

1. I like the solid back plate that everything is mounted too. Here most everyone does the thinnest expanded metal and everything sits funky on there, and all the steel fenders they use rust all to hell.

2. You need more cans of zinc it up on top of that one cabinet. :laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. I like the solid back plate that everything is mounted too. Here most everyone does the thinnest expanded metal and everything sits funky on there, and all the steel fenders they use rust all to hell.
> 
> 2. You need more cans of zinc it up on top of that one cabinet. :laughing:


There were 12 more inside the gutter below. :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> Here's some of my army.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:sleep1:












:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Who makes that level?


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Who makes that level?


Stabila.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Who makes that level?


Stabila


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Stabila.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Stabila.


Stabila?,,,,ohhhhh!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RobRoy said:


> There were 12 more inside the gutter below. :whistling2:












Could have used a few more cans here. When they spring for telemetry a new back panel goes up. And we undo all the well guys double tapped lugs.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Could have used a few more cans here. When they spring for telemetry a new back panel goes up. And we undo all the well guys double tapped lugs.


Those back panels you see in my pic are sent into to a painter, and have an epoxy based paint on them. They are pretty decent. I tap and thread all of those enclosures with 3/8" stainless hardware. It's pretty freakin stout!:thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah, my mechanical guys painted the tank in the background, hence why it isn't a rusting heap, direct to metal latex, they hate epoxy, doing the insides of the tanks is enough for them. :laughing:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, I lied.... There was only five more cans of zinc it in that gutter!:laughing:










What I do when I run out of room!
Who was saying I'm not an artist?!:whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Those paneltrans are sweet. Great idea somebody came up with.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Are those Allen Bradley units self contained 3R motor control centers?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

xaH said:


> Are those Allen Bradley units self contained 3R motor control centers?












Here's a little peak inside for you Xah.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> Ok, I lied.... There was only five more cans of zinc it in that gutter!:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhhhh!

I wish we had industrial plants like that here...NOT ANY MORE.:no:


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## HawkShock (Nov 27, 2012)

Last wiek, i fliped birgers, today i bcame lektrishun.


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## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

What do they control? Oil pumps?


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Ahhhhh!
> 
> I wish we had industrial plants like that here...NOT ANY MORE.:no:


This is actually a temporary remote site way up in the mountains! 480 comes from here!




























Yes, you heard me correctly. I said temporary!:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> This is actually a temporary remote site way up in the mountains! 480 comes from here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I hope you get to demo it too,,,Rake in the bucks..:thumbup::thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

xaH said:


> What do they control? Oil pumps?


I missed your comment. 

They are typically for motors such as these.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> I missed your comment.
> 
> They are typically for motors such as these.


:sleep1:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I love it keep posting those..:thumbup::thumbup:


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

This is a typical setup for an oil pumping unit. 










400 amp main with 2 - 200 amp disconnects. 










They are typically 100 or 125 HP motors controlled from these VFDs. 



















I hope this helps your question.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RobRoy said:


> This is a typical setup for an oil pumping unit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Milwaukee drill Ive been using that for 3 years , many times as my hole hawg drilling 1" holes....:laughing:

And it still kicks ass..:thumbup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well like the photos its nice to see pipe work that looks good .
:thumbsup:


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

RobRoy said:


> I missed your comment.
> 
> They are typically for motors such as these.


 
Awesome finishing job on those motor pedestals. :thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Those mogul LB's still cost XXXXX the normal ones? ~CS~


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Those mogul LB's still cost XXXXX the normal ones? ~CS~


I think that they are only 4X regular cost. I buy the real expensive one's regularly tho.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

That third base isn't inline with the other 3. Is that for artistic purposes?


















I'm kidding bro its interesting for sure and you obviously do nice work. Still not gonna call it art tho.


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

8V71 said:


> Awesome finishing job on those motor pedestals. :thumbup:


Looks awesome


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

8V71 said:


> Awesome finishing job on those motor pedestals. :thumbup:


 It really is. Those are so nice I almost wonder if they're prefab? Most places would've framed an approximately square block and whatever it looked like after the plywood was ripped off is what the motor would get mounted to.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

i don't get the tape on the joints...?:001_huh:~CS~


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## Ninjazx916r (Apr 1, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> Not all electricians can bend pipe......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm one of them. My 3 bend saddle just don't seem to have the correct degrees.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Big John said:


> It really is. Those are so nice I almost wonder if they're prefab? Most places would've framed an approximately square block and whatever it looked like after the plywood was ripped off is what the motor would get mounted to.


Our concrete guys are a bunch of huge white guys. All father, son, uncle family run gig. They always do a great job.:thumbup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Painting with poop is art. Bending pipe is less than art.

MONGO BEND PIPE!! RAWR! 










drops the mic


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

Nick0danger said:


> I always said you cant bend conduit till you do rigid aluminum in a skid. Spent the last 3 years doing industrial, going back to commercial and EMT my boss cant believe how fast i can bend EMT.


What is a skid?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

owl said:


> What is a skid?


Check your briefs


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

RobRoy said:


> This is what I typically use.


Good man. A rigid 700 right their. I had a kid working with me that I had threading two inch and the 700 was lifting his ass. I was in tears.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Good man. A rigid 700 right their. I had a kid working with me that I had threading two inch and the 700 was lifting his ass. I was in tears.


It wouldn't if you rigged it up correctly.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Good man. A rigid 700 right their. I had a kid working with me that I had threading two inch and the 700 was lifting his ass. I was in tears.


That's where the fitting for the 1/2" schedule 80 nipple with a pipe wrench comes into play. You are supposed to use that setup on anything 1" or greater. I always thread 2" with one hand on the 700, and the other on the oiler. 

Work smarter, not harder. :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobRoy said:


> That's where the fitting for the 1/2" schedule 80 nipple with a pipe wrench comes into play. You are supposed to use that setup on anything 1" or greater. I always thread 2" with one hand on the 700, and the other on the oiler.
> 
> Work smarter, not harder. :thumbup:


What do your hands look like? When I did schools everything in the deck was rigid and my hands were hard, 5 rows of callouses and stained oil brown. The oiler we had leaked like a sieve.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

RobRoy said:


> That's where the fitting for the 1/2" schedule 80 nipple with a pipe wrench comes into play. You are supposed to use that setup on anything 1" or greater. I always thread 2" with one hand on the 700, and the other on the oiler.
> 
> Work smarter, not harder. :thumbup:


I was using that method on 2 inch rigid once and it snapped the 1/2 off at the threads...the tri stand and pony along with the 2 inch I was trying to thread went walking lol


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> I was using that method on 2 inch rigid once and it snapped the 1/2 off at the threads...the tri stand and pony along with the 2 inch I was trying to thread went walking lol


Was it a schedule 80 nipple, or schedule 40?
I've been using the same schedule 80 nipple for years, with no issues. I do use a steel pipe wrench, instead of my aluminum ones. I'm always on the ready for that shít to snap. I stand off to the side where it can't get me.


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## RobRoy (Aug 6, 2009)

brian john said:


> What do your hands look like? When I did schools everything in the deck was rigid and my hands were hard, 5 rows of callouses and stained oil brown. The oiler we had leaked like a sieve.












My hands are pretty rough, and I wear gloves most of the time. As you can see here, that doesn't always happen though. I've got all the good callouses you speak of. :thumbup:


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