# Fuse Panel Changout



## chiefestimator

I havn't done residential in a long time (nigh on to 30 years ya young whipper-snapper). An insurance company is telling me they won't insure the house unless I replace the fuse panel with a circuit breaker panel.

First, is this BS? (I suppose they can demand anything they want)

Second, are there any new code suprises in the last 30 years? Unless I can find a CB panel that fits in the same space, I am probably going to gut the fuse panel and use it for a j-box to connect the existing circuits to the new panel.


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## 480sparky

chiefestimator said:


> ............Second, are there any new code suprises in the last 30 years? ............................


 
Thanks for that one! I really needed a good one-liner!:laughing: 

I vote for this for Post of the Month! :thumbsup:

Over the past 30 years, so much has changed for dwelling wiring that if you are related to Rip Van Winkle, you'll have a hard time understanding it all.

GFCI placements greatly expanded. 20a bath circuits. AFCIs. TR receps. WP receps. In-use covers. Common disconnects for multi-wires. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.


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## chiefestimator

*The old guy*

Most of that has also affected commercial, industrial and multi-unit residential, which I keep up with. However, you just made me think about the existing wiring. This as an old house. It is lath and plaster, with no ground wires. Am I required to upgrade the existing wiring if I replace the fuse panel?


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## 480sparky

chiefestimator said:


> Most of that has also affected commercial, industrial and multi-unit residential, which I keep up with. However, you just made me think about the existing wiring. This as an old house. It is lath and plaster, with no ground wires. Am I required to upgrade the existing wiring if I replace the fuse panel?


The NEC won't tell you. But your AHJ can.


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## chiefestimator

Now I'm scared. This house is in Hollywood (Los Angeles). I have never worked with tougher commercial inspectors. I wonder what the residential inspectors are like.


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## 480sparky

chiefestimator said:


> Now I'm scared. This house is in Hollywood (Los Angeles). I have never worked with tougher commercial inspectors. I wonder what the residential inspectors are like.


Probably the same, except they don't wear hard hats.


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## RePhase277

If this is a customer's house, don't be scared, be glad you got all that extra work.


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## drsparky

Sometimes it's better to sit back, mix a dry martini and let an experienced guy take over.:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk

chiefestimator said:


> I havn't done residential in a long time (nigh on to 30 years ya young whipper-snapper). An insurance company is telling me they won't insure the house unless I replace the fuse panel with a circuit breaker panel.
> 
> First, is this BS? (I suppose they can demand anything they want)


No, it's not BS. A great many of my fuse-panel changeouts were more or less forced by the insurance company. 



chiefestimator said:


> Second, are there any new code suprises in the last 30 years? Unless I can find a CB panel that fits in the same space, I am probably going to gut the fuse panel and use it for a j-box to connect the existing circuits to the new panel.


Related to changing a service out? Probably not. Hit the water line within 5' of the entrance is the main one. I have yet to hear of an inspector actually requiring that any changes to the branch circuits be performed, but I've heard lots of rumor and speculation. I think it's safe to say that in 99.9% of the US, you can do a service upgrade and just stop with the service equipment. 

Be advised that if this home has fuses, it MIGHT have K&T. Exposed (visible) K&T is normally on the insurance company's hit list too.


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## knowshorts

Being in LA, most likely outdoor, 4 fuse panel? About the size of a timeclock? I have replaced these many times with just a small 2/4 or 4/8 square d panel (due to their size). I can usually do a panel in about an hour. The only thing you might have to add is a ground rod and cold water ground. Don't touch anything in the house, unless you are going to get paid more. Hardest part? Getting barrel lock removed if you don't have a key or your grinder has clearance problems.


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## Toronto Sparky

chiefestimator said:


> I havn't done residential in a long time (nigh on to 30 years ya young whipper-snapper). An insurance company is telling me they won't insure the house unless I replace the fuse panel with a circuit breaker panel.
> 
> First, is this BS? (I suppose they can demand anything they want)



Yes that's true, Insurance company's always reject fuse panels. Just goes to show they know about real safety.
Fuse panels are always safer than breaker panels (as long as they have the correct fuses installed)


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## EJPHI

*panel change out*

A lot depends on the AHJ. In NCALI, I had one tell me I had to use arc fault for the bedroom branch circuits. But in a different town that was not required as long as I did not mess with the branch circuit wiring.

There are a lot of changes like needing separate circuits for bathrooms and the furnace.

Grounding will also be different. Around the early 90's (guess??) the NEC started requiring the water pipe bond within 5 feet of its entrance into the building. One local AHJ told me he wanted the clamp visible on the outside of the building. I disagreed and got him to accept the 5' placement because I showed him the code section. Of course having a stamped approved plan with the bond location helped:no:!!

Also consider the panel location. If it is on a fire wall, you will have to work closely with the AHJ to find an accpetable solution. There have been a lot of changes in how fire walls are managed since your original service was put in.

You mentioned lath and plaster. Maybe you have knob and tube?

Oh boy!! all I can say is don't p*## off the AHJ.

Let us know how it goes

EJPHI


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## rackman

out here in san diego we get the same request from time to time...change out fuse box because of insurance concerns....inspectors let us use the old box as a j-box and run circuits from new panel to old fuse box.


phillip in sd
San Diego Electrician
Electrician In San Diego
619-417-7183
www.thesandiegoelectrician.com


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## chiefestimator

*Yeah - It's an old house*

Thanks to everyone for their help. EJPHI - From what I am seeing in the multi-unit residential projects I bid, it's getting to the point that if it's not a GFCI, it's an arc-fault. I don't know if that is the California Electrical Code (CEC) or the NEC. And yes, it is knob & tube. It is the strangest service I have ever seen (I guess I have not been around a lot of old houses). The entire service is at the ceiling of the laundry room. It is fed from a 30a 120v single phase fused disconnect with S type fuses, including a fused neutral. The disconnect feeds the meter, which then feeds back thru the disconnect to a 6 circuit fuse panel, all with fused neutrals. How could the people live with a 30a single phase service?

And as far as "upsetting" the inspector, I was "taught" that lesson on my first project as a PM. The GF had to explain to me not to argue alot regarding the inspectors demands regarding grounding. It indeed can influence his disposition for the rest of the project.

Rackman - Exactly what I was thinking on the j-box idea. It seems all the neighbors have already done the same thing with a new service drop and a 200a meter/main/distribution panel.

Thanks again for all of your ideas and help. I have decided to enlist the help of a friend who was brought up working for his dad in residential. Even though he is in commercial/industrial now, he stays in touch with residential work.


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## EJPHI

*service upgrade*

>From what I am seeing in the multi-unit residential projects I bid, it's >getting to the point that if it's not a GFCI, it's an arc-fault. I don't know >if that is the California Electrical Code (CEC) or the NEC. 

I wish there were some strong wording about this in the NEC or the CEC. I will have to find the NEC section, but i remember something along the line of making current work meet current code and existing/untouched installations must be safe. Sometimes I think all of the wording is in the inspectors heads and it differs from burg to burg. Sure would be nice if they all agreed.


>And yes, it is knob & tube.

I will bet that you will need at least GFCIs.

>The entire service is at the ceiling of the laundry room. It is fed from a >30a 120v single phase fused disconnect with S type fuses, including a >fused neutral. The disconnect feeds the meter, which then feeds back >thru the disconnect to a 6 circuit fuse panel, all with fused neutrals.

You know one sort of tenant may pay quite a bit of rent for this arrangement. I believe around 30 amps would be sufficient for certain indoor argicultural pursuits. This service seems like it would be very easy to bypass, if one didn't want to raise suspicions with a large electric bill.


>How could the people live with a 30a single phase service?

Bill Gates once said that 640k of memory is enough for anything you might want to do with a small computer. Progress I guess.

>And as far as "upsetting" the inspector, I was "taught" that lesson on my >first project as a PM. The GF had to explain to me not to argue alot >regarding the inspectors demands regarding grounding. It indeed can >influence his disposition for the rest of the project.

It is truly an art. I have had some good luck picking my battles. I cave on the easy stuff and try to get them to agree up front when I anticipate a conflict during final.

EJPHI


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## Raverill

*Vast changes.*

You got one part right; turn the old fuse box into a j-box. The next right thing you need to do is get in contact with an electrician who is up on the current residential requirements in your town/state. There have been vast changes in the last 30 yrs.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Conspiracy*

I think it's a conspiracy between the us govenment (the mint) and insurance companies to create a copper (penny) surplus.


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## Raverill

*Fuse-stats*

DDD,
You may be right. It's ironic; in some ways, fuses are safer than breakers. They clear a fault faster. In the city where I learned the trade, right after the last ice age, they let you keep old fuse panels when you upgraded the house or apartment. You had to install Fuse-stat converters in the old Edison-base fuse sockets so no one could install a larger ampacity fuse than the Code allows for a particuar wire size. (Also, you couldn't stick a penny in 'em.) We used to find 20, 25, and sometimes 30 amp fuses on circuits of #14 wire. 
I think it may also be because manufacturers sit on code-making committees and insurance companies own stock.


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## Raverill

Many of the changes you mention have to do with the fact that manufacturers sit on code-making committees. Case in point; those stupid green wire nuts.


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## Dennis Alwon

A simple call to the AHJ can alleviate many headaches. 

I have seen insurance companies balk at insuring a house that has K & T wiring. IMO, you should be allowed to just change the panel without any new modifications to the old circuits. 

Watch your smoke detector rules. Around here you have to get the entire house up to code on SD even if you work in one room of the house. They will accept battery smokes in most cases.


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## Toronto Sparky

Fuses are ALWAYS safer than breakers.. They only have to work once. Breakers wear out with age. 
(FPE breakers are worn out brand new)


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## Raverill

*Fuses*

Agreed! Agreed! Fuses also do not have mechanical parts that need to be exercised annually. (Who does that?!) A 20 yr old fuse that's never been touched is as good as the day it went in. The biggest thing is the speed in fault clearing. I have often heard the wire rattling in the conduit for half a second or more waiting for a breaker to clear a fault. Even a properly functioning inverse time molded case cb takes at least an entire cycle to clear. A fuse will clear in a 5th of that time.


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## chiefestimator

*Thanks*

Thanks to everyone for your help. As I expected, my wife was appointed trustee of this estate. I have hired a friend (a real electrician!) to install a new service drop and meter/main.


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## chiefestimator

*Amen to that*



Toronto Sparky said:


> Fuses are ALWAYS safer than breakers.. They only have to work once. Breakers wear out with age.
> (FPE breakers are worn out brand new)


I started in this industry in a wholesale house. For GE, ITE & Murray we had one box each for defective breakers. For Federal Pacific, we had four.


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## captin jimmy

chiefestimator said:


> I havn't done residential in a long time (nigh on to 30 years ya young whipper-snapper). An insurance company is telling me they won't insure the house unless I replace the fuse panel with a circuit breaker panel.
> 
> First, is this BS? (I suppose they can demand anything they want)
> 
> Second, are there any new code suprises in the last 30 years? Unless I can find a CB panel that fits in the same space, I am probably going to gut the fuse panel and use it for a j-box to connect the existing circuits to the new panel.


 Fuse pannels are obsolete,and yessss ther are numerous new codes ,don`t '' gut'' the old pannel, replace it1!!!!!!! sounds like you havent done electrical since tube and knob!!!


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## captin jimmy

chiefestimator said:


> Most of that has also affected commercial, industrial and multi-unit residential, which I keep up with. However, you just made me think about the existing wiring. This as an old house. It is lath and plaster, with no ground wires. Am I required to upgrade the existing wiring if I replace the fuse panel?


 you are not an electrician:001_huh:


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## chiefestimator

captin jimmy said:


> you are not an electrician:001_huh:


Don't rush to judgement. I never claimed to be one. I am an electrical estimator and project manager with 38 years of experience. I am on this forum to offer advice on those subjects. I have worn the tools a short time when I was much younger. As stated previously on this thread, an electrician will do this work. The purpose of this question was to get the information needed to make a desicion on how to proceed with this project.


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## idontknow

Just chiming in to increase my post count as well, that's all.


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## captin jimmy

chiefestimator said:


> Most of that has also affected commercial, industrial and multi-unit residential, which I keep up with. However, you just made me think about the existing wiring. This as an old house. It is lath and plaster, with no ground wires. Am I required to upgrade the existing wiring if I replace the fuse panel?


 No, it should be granfathered, keep it to your self:no:


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## captin jimmy

chiefestimator said:


> Don't rush to judgement. I never claimed to be one. I am an electrical estimator and project manager with 38 years of experience. I am on this forum to offer advice on those subjects. I have worn the tools a short time when I was much younger. As stated previously on this thread, an electrician will do this work. The purpose of this question was to get the information needed to make a desicion on how to proceed with this project.


 ok, no offence


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