# Um...... maybe I'm wrong......



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

...... but................










....... don't you need, like, 3-phase NEMA receps for 3-phase circuits?


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Is that in a playhouse (theater) by any chance?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

stuiec said:


> Is that in a playhouse (theater) by any chance?



Rotary phase converter for a winery.


----------



## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Back in the day before I knew better the "helpful" sales guys at the local supply house gave me those when I asked for 3 phase receptacles!


----------



## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

This is one thing I am sure our codes are in full agreement on. In Canada, all receptacles have a CSA configuration, and all receptacles/cord ends have a specific voltage and amperage configuration. This setup pictured needs to be removed asap.


----------



## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

Those appear to be NEMA 14-50R L,L,N,G receptacles.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know what the listing says for those receptacles, but, for example, the cut sheet for the one shown below says 125/250v 50a 3pole 4wire.

well, if it was 208y120v, and you didn't need a neutral, what's the violation ? (I skimmed thru 406 and I don't see a violation)


http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/range-dryer/flush-mount/50a/3894.aspx#.UZttdLXXqSo


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

wildleg said:


> I don't know what the listing says for those receptacles, but, for example, the cut sheet for the one shown below says 125/250v 50a 3pole 4wire.
> 
> well, if it was 208y120v, and you didn't need a neutral, what's the violation ?
> 
> ...


The point is so you can't plug a single phase load into the receptacle wired 3 phase and push a 3rd phase on the neutral and smoke the equipment. I was in agreement with you at first, but you want a receptacle designed for only 3 phase so that only loads that can utilize 3 phase at that voltage/current limitation gets plugged into it. Whole point of NEMA ratings.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> The point is so you can't plug a single phase load into the receptacle wired 3 phase and push a 3rd phase on the neutral and smoke the equipment. I was in agreement with you at first, but you want a receptacle designed for only 3 phase so that only loads that can utilize 3 phase at that voltage/current limitation gets plugged into it. Whole point of NEMA ratings.


I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm asking someone to tell me what the violation is, cause I can't find it, and I can't find in the manufacturer's literature anything that would indicate a 110 violation (the spec sheet says 3 pole). Is it implicit when an item refers to the Nema configuration that the nema phase configuration is somehow tied to the "suitable for purpose" ?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I don't know what the listing says for those receptacles, but, for example, the cut sheet for the one shown below says 125/250v 50a 3pole 4wire.
> 
> well, if it was 208y120v, and you didn't need a neutral, what's the violation ? (I skimmed thru 406 and I don't see a violation)


What's the point of using 3-phase breakers if you're running 1-phase 120/208 to the receptacles? :001_huh:

I haven't done anything other than make a cursory peek at the gear, but my guess is they've wired 3-phase to a 1-phase NEMA recep.


What happens when the cleaning crew comes along with their 120/240 40a floor buffer and plugs in? I always figured that's why 406.4(F) exists.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What's the point of using 3-phase breakers if you're running 1-phase 120/208 to the receptacles? :001_huh:
> 
> I haven't done anything other than make a cursory peek at the gear, but my guess is they've wired 3-phase to a 1-phase NEMA recep.
> 
> ...



I totally get that. my question is - does the fact that a nema code is on a device mean that you must use the device for the nema purpose, even if the power rating of the device hasn't been exceeded ? And is the only place that this is enforced via the 110 section of the code that applies ? (or am I missing something?)


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I totally get that. my question is - does the fact that a nema code is on a device mean that you must use the device for the nema purpose, even if the power rating of the device hasn't been exceeded ? And is the only place that this is enforced via the 110 section of the code that applies ? (or am I missing something?)



I understand that you can use these for 120/208 situations, such as for a stove in an apartment building that has a 3-phase service.

But I don't see any legal way to feed the receptacle itself with 3-phase 208. Not 120/208..... 208. No neutral. The center slot is ungrounded.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> What's the point of using 3-phase breakers if you're running 1-phase 120/208 to the receptacles? :001_huh:


 
What they had around, perhaps only 2 out of the 3 poles are being used?

There is no way to really tell without a meter.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

wildleg said:


> I totally get that. my question is - does the fact that a nema code is on a device mean that you must use the device for the nema purpose, even if the power rating of the device hasn't been exceeded ? And is the only place that this is enforced via the 110 section of the code that applies ? (or am I missing something?)


i don't this so Wildone, seems you're stuck here>









~CS~


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

Did you test the voltage at the receptacle? How do we know they are using all three poles of the breaker?


I re-read the thread, you pointed out you didn't do any tests, so it's a moot point discussing since they could be in fact wired correctly.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ok, playin' devils advocate...... would only using 2 of 3 breaker poles be a 110.3B violation? ~CS~


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> ok, playin' devils advocate...... would only using 2 of 3 breaker poles be a 110.3B violation? ~CS~


No... I've never read that you 'HAD' to use every pole available. IMO, no different that supplying a 120/240v panel with only 240v.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Stickboy1375 said:


> No... I've never read that you 'HAD' to use every pole available. IMO, no different that supplying a 120/240v panel with only 240v.


Nor have i

yet i'd _assume_ that a 3ph breaker is doing_ something_ 3 phase Stick

_assumption_ often being the element that goes before disaster....


~CS~


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Nor have i
> 
> yet i'd _assume_ that a 3ph breaker is doing_ something_ 3 phase Stick
> 
> ...


I agree... and i'm betting they _are_ using all (3) poles.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Stickboy1375 said:


> Did you test the voltage at the receptacle? How do we know they are using all three poles of the breaker?
> 
> 
> I re-read the thread, you pointed out you didn't do any tests, so it's a moot point discussing since they could be in fact wired correctly.



The thing is just sitting in a warehouse right now. It will probably be later this summer before I have a chance to hook it up.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Nor have i
> 
> yet i'd _assume_ that a 3ph breaker is doing_ something_ 3 phase Stick
> 
> ...


Well, I hope not, because I couldn't find a 2 pole 60A breaker in the shop, so I used a 3 pole 60A breaker to feed the shop panel :whistling2:


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Well, I hope not, because I couldn't find a 2 pole 60A breaker in the shop, so I used a 3 pole 60A breaker to feed the shop panel :whistling2:


I've used 2 pole breakers for single pole applications also...


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> ...I always figured that's why 406.4(F) exists.


 My interpretation was always that if there were no other receptacles on site that used that same configuration for a different voltage, then that would mean they were legal.


> *(F) Noninterchangeable Types.*
> Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.


 Full disclosure, I've used receptacles outside their standard NEMA applications in the past and actually figured that what permitted it was 406.4(F).


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> My interpretation was always that if there were no other receptacles on site that used that same configuration for a different voltage, then that would mean they were legal. Full disclosure, I've used receptacles outside their standard NEMA applications in the past and actually figured that what permitted it was 406.4(F).



So you're saying using the neutral terminal of a 14-50R receptacle for an ungrounded (hot) conductor is legal?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So you're saying using the neutral terminal of a 14-50R receptacle for an ungrounded (hot) conductor is legal?


 Sounds like a bad idea, but at this point I frankly don't know what would prohibit it. Still reading.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

You got 110.3(B) and I think an issue with a silver screw being used as a hot.

But that aside I don't think there is a single rule that clearly states what is required.


----------



## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> Sounds like a bad idea, but at this point I frankly don't know what would prohibit it. Still reading.


Would the fact that NEMA calls the "w" terminal the "system ground" terminal make a difference?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You got 110.3(B) and I think an issue with a silver screw being used as a hot.
> 
> But that aside I don't think there is a single rule that clearly states what is required.


If the manufacturer's instructions state to only connect a grounded conductor to the silver-colored terminal, then I think that's the nail in the coffin.


----------



## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

From Leviton
· AC Horsepower Ratings
· *At Rated Voltage:* 3 HP
· Electrical Specifications
· *Grounding:* Grounding
· *Amperage:* 50 Amp
· *Voltage:* 125/250 Volt
· *NEMA:* 14-50R
· *Pole:* 3
· *Wire:* 4
· *Dielectric Voltage:* Withstands 2000V per UL498
· *Current Limiting:* Full Rated Current
· *Temperature Rise:* Max 30C after 50 cycles OL at 150 percent rated current
· Environmental Specifications
· *Flammability:* Rated V-2 per UL94
· *Operating Temperature:* -40C to 60C
· Material Specifications
· *Face Material:* Thermoplastic
· *Body Material:* Thermoplastic
· *Strap Material:* Galvanized Steel
· *Color:* Black
· Mechanical Specifications
· *Terminal ID:* Brass-Hot, Green-Ground, Silver-Neutral
· *Terminal Accom.:* Up to 4 AWG
· *Product ID:* Ratings are permanently marked on device
· Product Features
· *NEMA:* 14-50R
· *Color:* Black
· Standards and Certifications
· *NEMA:* WD-6
· *ANSI:* C-73
· *UL498:* File E13399
· *CSA C22.2 No. 42:* File 152105
· *NOM:* 057
· *Warranty:* 10 Year Limited


----------



## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

Eek! Is the supply to the panel even three phase? Looking at this makes me kinda dizzy. I have more questions than answers. Think I'm gonna make me one of them.


----------



## donselec (May 7, 2011)

must be used the way it is labeled an listed...most 3ph are twistlocs or pin and sleeve...


----------

