# Do you think we'll be seeing increase in fluorescent lamp prices as well as T5 usage?



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Most of rare earth materials, which are used in making all of modern fluorescent lamps are produced in China. They have imposed a strict export control on these resources.
> 
> Do you think lamp prices will go up?
> 
> Are we going to see faster than predicted adoption of T5 systems in order to minimize the amount of precious materials used for the same amount of lighting?


What if I took a burnt out T-5 or T-8, slide it into a induction coil. 

Would it contiune working?




I dunno........maybe another experiment to try.....:thumbsup:


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

I think Cerium is the only rare earth material they really use much of in fluorescent lighting. Plenty of other sources besides China for Cerium.

I'm much more worried about the price of copper going up hundreds of dollars, than I am about the price of fluorescent lamps going up a few pennies.


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> What if I took a burnt out T-5 or T-8, slide it into a induction coil.
> 
> Would it contiune working?
> 
> I dunno........maybe another experiment to try.....:thumbsup:


That does sound like an interesting experiment. 
I'd be interested in your results, and photos if you can.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

That will be on todays list of something to do, before nap time of course.:thumbsup:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

No, doesn't appear to work.

The Induction bulbs, closed loop type, have a no-frosted area under the HF coil.

It's a small 1" wrap around the bulb, that has no coating. It's clear.

I used a old F12 for my first experiment. 

The F12 is smaller in diameter than the 80W bulb they came from. About 1/4".

When energized, the F12 light up light like a X-mas tree and went out.

What was cool, is the light traveled down the tube from one coil to the other, then hit the end and went out.

It was cool looking.:thumbsup:

I'll have to read up on why the induction is a closed loop and the coating observation.


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## LightsRus (Sep 12, 2010)

I understand the induction driver frequency is tuned to the load. That will vary with distance between the coils and the gas/mercury composition, and probably several other things. 

If you can get into the driver, you may find a pot or slug to tweak.

Be careful.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MarkyMark said:


> I think Cerium is the only rare earth material they really use much of in fluorescent lighting. Plenty of other sources besides China for Cerium.
> 
> I'm much more worried about the price of copper going up hundreds of dollars, than I am about the price of fluorescent lamps going up a few pennies.


Nope, the important ones are yttrium, europium and terbium. These RE80 lamps are called tri-phosphor lamps, because the phosphor blends use a different proportion of rare earth red, blue and green phosphors to make white light. 

The soon to be banned lamp designs used mineral halophosphates

The relative price difference between RE70 and RE80 lamps are substantial, and the RE80s use thicker rare-earth phosphor blend layer.

"As discussed previously, the most important rare earths for lighting applications are yttrium, europium, and terbium. Very high levels of purity (99.99% or greater) are necessary for these phosphors in lighting applications, which increases the cost to lamp manufacturers." 

The use of rare earth materials for phosphors represent about 1/3 of commerce by value. 

Refer to 3C-1 through 3C-3 
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...ial/pdfs/app_3c_lamps_standards_final_tsd.pdf

T5 is about 94 in^2, T8 150^in2 and T12 is 225 in^2. 
Assuming the same thickness, T5s use 40% less phosphor. 

There are a few models of T12 triphosphor lamps, but they're spendy.

As far as I know, T5s are neither inferior nor superior to T8 lamps, but the slight difference in size makes them difficult to apply in retrofits. 

Currently they're far more expensive than T8s due to lower volume, however as phosphor raw materials continue to go up in cost, the manufacturers may put pressure on increasing their share.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Not sure which ones, but I heard some rare earth mines in the states were opening back up due to demand and concerns over the availibility from China.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> What if I took a burnt out T-5 or T-8, slide it into a induction coil.
> 
> Would it contiune working?
> 
> ...


 Mad Scientist at work:laughing:


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Nope, the important ones are yttrium, europium and terbium. These RE80 lamps are called tri-phosphor lamps, because the phosphor blends use a different proportion of rare earth red, blue and green phosphors to make white light.
> 
> The soon to be banned lamp designs used mineral halophosphates
> 
> ...


good stuff

actually you can do retrofits with deep sockets to meet the new length requirement of the T5 lamps. However, the ballasts costs come into play too, and they are also much higher than T8. Might be a production issue as well, but the difference is substantial.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> good stuff
> 
> actually you can do retrofits with deep sockets to meet the new length requirement of the T5 lamps. However, the ballasts costs come into play too, and they are also much higher than T8. Might be a production issue as well, but the difference is substantial.


Not only is the cost of phosphor materials going up, the amount needed per lamp is going up, because RE80 lamps are more or less required for meeting the 2012 energy code and the older RE70 lamps that use less rare earth phosphor would not meet the standards. 

At this point its estimated that phosphor accounts for 28 cents at manufacturing and 64 cents per lamp at retail level. The big three sells both lamps and ballasts, so when the cost of key raw materials skyrockets, I think there's a lot of incentive for manufacturer to reduce the amount of costly materials in order to keep costs down. I think this may steer the big three into pushing T5s into mainstream. Once T5s have the same production volume, and become the main player, the cost of production should come down substantially, along with ballasts.

if you do the extender socket retrofit, there is an aesthetic issue of shorter lamps causing the lamps to look like they have severely blackened ends.


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