# Backyard pizz oven



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Customer is installing an outdoor pizza oven. Will have lights, refrigerators, electric heaters etc. do I need to bond to a ufer in the slab or anything? It’s about 50’ from the house but a 160’ conduit run from the sub panel.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Really, its kind an outdoor pizza kitchen with 4 posts holding up a roof over it.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I think they're called summer kitchens. 

What fuel is that pizza oven (just curious; no bearing on your inquiry)?


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

five.five-six said:


> Customer is installing an outdoor pizza oven. Will have lights, refrigerators, electric heaters etc. do I need to bond to a ufer in the slab or anything? It’s about 50’ from the house but a 160’ conduit run from the sub panel.


Wouldn't a Ufer , or similar bonding done in art 680,_ enhance_ the perfromance of all the gfci circuitry in such an install?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> Customer is installing an outdoor pizza oven. Will have lights, refrigerators, electric heaters etc. do I need to bond to a ufer in the slab or anything? It’s about 50’ from the house but a 160’ conduit run from the sub panel.


I would assume the AHJ would consider this a separate structure, and Art. 250.32 should apply.

Also, is a feeder supplying a sub panel at the structure, or is it multiple branch circuits? (Art. 225.30)


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Barjack said:


> I would assume the AHJ would consider this a separate structure, and Art. 250.32 should apply.
> 
> Also, is a feeder supplying a sub panel at the structure, or is it multiple branch circuits? (Art. 225.30)


Multiple branch circuits.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MikeFL said:


> I think they're called summer kitchens.
> 
> What fuel is that pizza oven (just curious; no bearing on your inquiry)?


Wood

There are some gas grills but the pizza oven is wood.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> Multiple branch circuits.


I gotta ask, why not put a little sub out there?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm with sbrn33 here, a subpanel is 100% the way to go!

Why play games when you know by next season there will be at least two additional circuits that they will want.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

SISYPHUS said:


> Wouldn't a Ufer , or similar bonding done in art 680,_ enhance_ the perfromance of all the gfci circuitry in such an install?


:no::no:


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I gotta ask, why not put a little sub out there?


They want pizza, not subs.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm with sbrn33 here, a subpanel is 100% the way to go!
> 
> Why play games when you know by next season there will be at least two additional circuits that they will want.





sbrn33 said:


> I gotta ask, why not put a little sub out there?



That was my original thinking but it’s countertop and a roof. No place to put a sub panel. The only possibility would be on the back of the chimney which would look like ass and because of a plants I couldn’t get minimum working distance.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


Please expound.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm with sbrn33 here, a subpanel is 100% the way to go!
> 
> Why play games when you know by next season there will be at least two additional circuits that they will want.





sbrn33 said:


> I gotta ask, why not put a little sub out there?


No placed to put one. It’s all counter top with 4 posts and a roof. I could put it on the back of the chiming but it would look like hell and with the plants I couldn’t get min working distance. 

I’m running 1 1/4” SCH80 sho I can pull more circuits than the sub panel has breaker spaces.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


Please pontificate.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

five.five-six said:


> Please pontificate.


Ground faults interrupters only detect faults in the ground. If you put the rebar in concrete, how will it take voltage readings of the earth?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Run a 2nd empty pipe.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> No placed to put one. It’s all counter top with 4 posts and a roof. I could put it on the back of the chiming but it would look like hell and with the plants I couldn’t get min working distance.
> 
> I’m running 1 1/4” SCH80 sho I can pull more circuits than the sub panel has breaker spaces.


Can't set a post adjacent to the structure to mount a sub?

Where is your 1 1/4" PVC going to terminate?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> Wouldn't a Ufer , or similar bonding done in art 680,_ enhance_ the perfromance of all the gfci circuitry in such an install?


Depends on what you mean by "enhance". 

"Enhance" the safety of the installation.
or
"Enhance" the ability for the GFCi to trip more often. 

Bond that slab right good and you just created the other half of the circuit for current to flow when there would have otherwise not been quite as good of a path for current flow.

The GFCI is going to trip at 6ma of current imbalance, regardless. You can make it easy to hit 6ma or you can let things well enough alone and make it tougher to get 6ma of current imbalance.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Can't set a post adjacent to the structure to mount a sub?
> 
> Where is your 1 1/4" PVC going to terminate?


This....
Even set a post in the plants or on other side of them to kind of hide it.





Where is the pvc terminating at?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I thought this thread was going to be about a porta potty in the hot sun. 

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I thought this thread was going to be about a porta potty in the hot sun.


We are all familiar with the smell and feeling of being in one of those ovens!


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Depends on what you mean by "enhance".
> 
> "Enhance" the safety of the installation.
> or
> ...




Current normally does _not_ flow on an ECG , or Grounding electrode , unless multiple earthed nuetrals are in proximity Mr Shunk

If so, one has bigger problems.

Further, i would ecourage you investigate how torroidials work , as it appears you're in need of an education


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

SISYPHUS said:


> Current normally does _not_ flow on an ECG , or Grounding electrode , unless multiple earthed nuetrals are in proximity Mr Shunk
> 
> If so, one has bigger problems.
> 
> Further, i would ecourage you investigate how torroidials work , as it appears you're in need of an education


Current would not be flowing if ground and neutral are properly isolated at the sub panel. Driving a ground rod only adds another path to earth and back to the source via the EGC if a fault occurs. 

So, what are you proposing, exactly? The NEC already requires a GEC for this remote structure subpanel.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Can't set a post adjacent to the structure to mount a sub?


 it would look like hell


> Where is your 1 1/4" PVC going to terminate?



Behind a access panel I set an 8x8x6 can below the countertop


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MTW said:


> So, what are you proposing, exactly? The NEC already requires a GEC for this remote structure subpanel.


That *250.68.C (1) (2) (3)* is the OP's _answer_ , and the _theory_ behind it _acknowledged _

thx


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> Current normally does _not_ flow on an ECG , or Grounding electrode , unless multiple earthed nuetrals are in proximity Mr Shunk
> 
> If so, one has bigger problems.
> 
> Further, i would ecourage you investigate how torroidials work , as it appears you're in need of an education


Kirchoff's Law.

:wink:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am going back to my original post. There is no way I am not setting a small sub out there. You cannot tell me you can't hide it a bit. If I was a homeowner and blew a breaker and it was in the house I would be like WTF???


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## KnightPower (Nov 5, 2016)

Technically no. You are installing a MWBC not a feeder. (250.32). But personally I would install the CEE connection just to be safe or the future. 

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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I am going back to my original post. There is no way I am not setting a small sub out there. You cannot tell me you can't hide it a bit. If I was a homeowner and blew a breaker and it was in the house I would be like WTF???



The new subpanel is not in the house, it’s on the side of the house about 50’ away with the pool equiptment. 

The only reason there’s 160’ of underground is the existing hardscape in the way.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Ive done plenty like that fed from the pool panel![emoji108]

Never added ground rods


PS
I bet that pool panel is already hidden behind shrubs and plants! Lol




five.five-six said:


> The new subpanel is not in the house, it’s on the side of the house about 50’ away with the pool equiptment.
> 
> The only reason there’s 160’ of underground is the existing hardscape in the way.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

you gotta love rich people projects.

They want everything under the sun , but can't handle the trigger 
moment when they're able to see an outlet receptacle or a switch ...
let alone the whole breaker panel.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

lighterup said:


> you gotta love rich people projects.
> 
> They want everything under the sun , but can't handle the trigger
> moment when they're able to see an outlet receptacle or a switch ...
> let alone the whole breaker panel.


If they're anything like the rich people I've been dealing with all summer.....

They'll just put a 6ft by 15ft framed picture over the panel! Lol

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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> If they're anything like the rich people I've been dealing with all summer.....
> 
> They'll just put a 6ft by 15ft framed picture over the panel! Lol
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


Honestly 

I cannot count the times people have made comments about 
"not wanting to see" any devices (or equipment for that matter)


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

lighterup said:


> Honestly
> 
> I cannot count the times people have made comments about
> "not wanting to see" any devices (or equipment for that matter)


Equipment I get.
Devices?....pico remotes and charge large!

Can't say I've come across people complaining about that. Typically they just want to control everything from thier phone.

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> it would look like hell
> 
> 
> Behind a access panel I set an 8x8x6 can below the countertop


I'd find a way to make it happen.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Check post#30

Its already done for him


MechanicalDVR said:


> I'd find a way to make it happen.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

How did this morph into "toroidials"? Oh that's just....never mind.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

KnightPower said:


> Technically no. You are installing a MWBC not a feeder. (250.32). But personally I would install the CEE connection just to be safe or the future.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


So how many MWBC's are _required _(210.52)for an outdoor kitchen?


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

lighterup said:


> you gotta love rich people projects.
> 
> .


In the respect of having the $$$'s to do it right?

yeah, i do


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> So how many MWBC's are _required _(210.52)for an outdoor kitchen?



Hi there , Depends on if you are cooking *C*hicken*S* in your outdoor kitchen .....


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## KnightPower (Nov 5, 2016)

SISYPHUS said:


> So how many MWBC's are _required _(210.52)for an outdoor kitchen?


A grounding electrode isn't required where the building/structure is served with a 2-wire, 3-wire, or 4-wire multiwire branch circuit. 250.32(A)*

2 ckts are within limits. So now you can focus on your Tortino pizza rolls. 

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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

SISYPHUS said:


> In the respect of having the $$$'s to do it right?
> 
> yeah, i do


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> If they're anything like the rich people I've been dealing with all summer.....
> 
> They'll just put a 6ft by 15ft framed picture over the panel! Lol
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


I hide mine with a fake door...


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

It would be nice to have a panel out there. You can hide it with anything. 

How about hiding it with this sign?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

So, he wants a pair of electric 3,000 watt 240v heaters installed but for some reason I thought 240v heaters was forbidden in residential or is that just lighting?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

five.five-six said:


> So, he wants a pair of electric 3,000 watt 240v heaters installed but for some reason I thought 240v heaters was forbidden in residential or is that just lighting?


We've done 240v heaters, I dont believe theres a requirement saying you can't. Maybe it's a wierd local jurisdiction thing?

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

five.five-six said:


> So, he wants a pair of electric 3,000 watt 240v heaters installed but for some reason I thought 240v heaters was forbidden in residential or is that just lighting?


If 240V heaters aren't permitted in residential, a LOT of people around here are in a LOT of trouble.  Nobody I know of course.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> So, he wants a pair of electric 3,000 watt 240v heaters installed but for some reason I thought 240v heaters was forbidden in residential or is that just lighting?


In the land of fruits and nuts (Cali) where plastic straws are verboten anything can be deemed illegal I guess!

I think California politicians are carcinogens!


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

splatz said:


> If 240V heaters aren't permitted in residential, a LOT of people around here are in a LOT of trouble.  Nobody I know of course.


Is there a special wing at Gitmo for 240v heater criminals?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Water heater is 240.
Heat strip in a AHU is 240.
Dryer (heater) is 240.
Oven (heater) is 240.

So exactly what kind of heaters are we talking about?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MikeFL said:


> Water heater is 240.
> Heat strip in a AHU is 240.
> Dryer (heater) is 240.
> Oven (heater) is 240.
> ...


I was thinking suspended radiant for an outdoor kitchen in Cali..


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I don't know if this helps you but we put in serving stations with 100 amp subs built in . Granted it is commercial and made in a factory and if you do not know where they put the sub you will spend lots of time trying to find it . low to the ground behind a door . The big chain steak houses use them a lot .


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

So, the branch circuits are in and when I started to temp feed my subpanel with the old pool panel feeders, I found a small zinsco 6 position subpannel stuffed inside an outside facing water heater closet. 

Every single pole breaker was doubled up and on of the buss bars was burnt completely through. It was a fire waiting to happen. 

Lucky it was right around the corner from my new subpanel. I just rehomed the 9 circuits to the new panel

That thing was a fire waiting to happen.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

five.five-six said:


> So, the branch circuits are in and when I started to temp feed my subpanel with the old pool panel feeders, I found a small zinsco 6 position subpannel stuffed inside an outside facing water heater closet.
> 
> Every single pole breaker was doubled up and on of the buss bars was burnt completely through. It was a fire waiting to happen.
> 
> ...


Nice catch!

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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)




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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Holy crap!

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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> Holy crap!
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


Right?

I’ve seen lots of scarred and burnt buss bars but never one burnt all the way in half before.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Im surprised the whole thing didn't burn/melt down!

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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> We've done 240v heaters, I dont believe theres a requirement saying you can't. Maybe it's a wierd local jurisdiction thing?
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


In Canada we aren't allowed more than 150V to *ground* in residential so 240V loads on your typical 240/120V service are fine.


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