# Is this hack?



## chewy

Forgot pic


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## Rollie73

Does it work???

Yes = :thumbsup:
No= Hack


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## chewy

It works but its pretty ugly.


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## Rollie73

You'll never see it from your house:thumbsup:


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## Shock-Therapy

chewy said:


> It works but its pretty ugly.


I see what you did there....


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## Edrick

How else would you do it? I frequently see it done that way


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## chewy

Edrick said:


> How else would you do it? I frequently see it done that way


Dont know, dont usually do phone stuff.


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## farlsincharge

What if I told you I run two voice pairs and data down the same cat5?
Or even two data drops?


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## FrunkSlammer

Two data drops in one cat 5? Now you got our attention!


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## Edrick

farlsincharge said:


> What if I told you I run two voice pairs and data down the same cat5? Or even two data drops?


I'd say you shouldn't be touching a data network. If you told me that.


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## farlsincharge

Edrick said:


> I'd say you shouldn't be touching a data network. If you told me that.


The speeds we run here in the sticks, no one can tell the difference.

I wouldn't do it on a new job or anything that mattered, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.


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## Edrick

farlsincharge said:


> The speeds we run here in the sticks, no one can tell the difference.


I figured you were talking in a actual network environment worried about data throughout. If you're in the sticks that's a different story


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## FrunkSlammer

People in the sticks don't like fast LAN's?


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## Going_Commando

FrunkSlammer said:


> People in the sticks don't like fast LAN's?


People in the sticks think LAN is short for their cousin Landon or Langdon. When you are on 768k DSL, and everything is connected wireless, they just don't know any better. You could practically use 2 styrofoam cups and string for the bandwidth they get in the sticks.


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## farlsincharge

FrunkSlammer said:


> People in the sticks don't like fast LAN's?


I honestly don't notice a difference.
Had a restaurant change their till orientation (hotel management software system) and didn't want to spend any money on cabling. Piggybacked 2 drops into 4. They were and are happy as could be. 

Yeah, that's hack.


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## FrunkSlammer

Damn girl, that's some crazy stuff. I love it!

What do you do for the 2 terminations?


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## farlsincharge

Just use the orange and green terminations on each jack.


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## LARMGUY

chewy said:


> It works but its pretty ugly.


They have a rack mount and a shelf but hung it like that? 
that is HAACCK!


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## maddhatter

**** I hope not, I've done that before, plenty of times, certainly never considered it to be a hack


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## chewy

LARMGUY said:


> They have a rack mount and a shelf but hung it like that?
> that is HAACCK!


I was working on it, haha.


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## five.five-six

chewy said:


> Forgot pic


If it's dial tone on a RJ45 jack, then it is hack. the reason is that (in the US) dial tone is 48V DC, a ring is generated by superimposing 90V AC giving you the potential of 138V peeks, which can fry a NIC in short order. That said, I have done it in a pinch LOL.


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## five.five-six

Edrick said:


> How else would you do it? I frequently see it done that way



This













plus these:











Would be the correct way to do it.


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## chewy

five.five-six said:


> If it's dial tone on a RJ45 jack, then it is hack. the reason is that (in the US) dial tone is 48V DC, a ring is generated by superimposing 90V AC giving you the potential of 138V peeks, which can fry a NIC in short order. That said, I have done it in a pinch LOL.


Yeah I measured 47v DC when I was identifying what extensions in the demarc were live.


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## five.five-six

chewy said:


> Yeah I measured 47v DC when I was identifying what extensions in the demarc were live.



Don't be touching it when it rings, it will wake your a$$ up. Just clearly stencil that panel not for computers or some such clearly understandable verbiage and you should be GTG


Inside plant voltage is nominal 48 volts but runs at 52, a few km of voltage drop gets your to 47V


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## chewy

five.five-six said:


> Don't be touching it when it rings, it will wake your a$$ up. Just clearly stencil that panel not for computers or some such clearly understandable verbiage and you should be GTG
> 
> Inside plant voltage is nominal 48 volts but runs at 52, a few km of voltage drop gets your to 47V


The ADSL is 47v also off that filter, dont plug into computers?


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## five.five-six

chewy said:


> The ADSL is 47v also off that filter, dont plug into computers?


I don't understand what you are saying.


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## chewy

five.five-six said:


> I don't understand what you are saying.


ADSL, Theres an incoming 1 pair line which has data and voice, the data is carried on different frequencys from the voice and is heard as slight "noise" in the background unless you use a splitter/filter, the black box I have wired into that panel has an incoming for line then a pair for voice and a pair for modem outgoing. What I have cobbled together on that cat6 panel (couldnt get cat3 25pair panel on a sunday) is first 4 ports looped out of the splitter as filtered voice on same number for drive through point of sale and phone, pairs 2 to 12 punched down but not patched at the demarc until telco designates more numbers, 2 unfiltered lines for alarm panel and one port to go into the modem.


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## five.five-six

chewy said:


> ADSL, Theres an incoming 1 pair line which has data and voice, the data is carried on different frequencys from the voice and is heard as slight "noise" in the background unless you use a splitter/filter, the black box I have wired into that panel has an incoming for line then a pair for voice and a pair for modem outgoing. What I have cobbled together on that cat6 panel (couldnt get cat3 25pair panel on a sunday) is first 4 ports looped out of the splitter as filtered voice on same number for drive through point of sale and phone, pairs 2 to 12 punched down but not patched at the demarc until telco designates more numbers, 2 unfiltered lines for alarm panel and one port to go into the modem.



In the US, the trunk for the alarm is supposed to run through a RJ31X jack before it goes to any ueser equipment. that is so that in the case of an alarm, it can interrupt any user equipment that has seized that line.


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## chewy

five.five-six said:


> In the US, the trunk for the alarm is supposed to run through a RJ31X jack before it goes to any ueser equipment. that is so that in the case of an alarm, it can interrupt any user equipment that has seized that line.


I knew it was something like that, I dont have a spec for it. I have 2x cat6 to the alarm panel, taken one directly to the demarc and wired it in to the only active phone line while also having voice backbone going to my rack, Ill just blue pair into the alarm and orange pair out on the same cable then disconnect the first backbone pair and scotchlock it onto the orange pair from the alarm panel, doing 7 twelves and fourteens so havent been thinking straight so Ive run alot of redundancy for commisioning tommorow. Not sure when alarm guy is going to be installing the panel.


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## daveEM

chewy said:


> , taken one directly to the demarc and wired it in to ... just blue pair into the alarm and orange pair out on the same cable then disconnect the first backbone pair and scotchlock it onto the orange pair from the alarm panel, doing 7 twelves and fourteens


:thumbsup:

Crap I gotta learn this stuff. Neat lingo .


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## jeffmoss26

I've done it but I prefer 66 blocks for voice. Much easier to loop the cross connect through.


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## Dawizman

jeffmoss26 said:


> I've done it but I prefer 66 blocks for voice. Much easier to loop the cross connect through.


66 blocks are gross! BIX is the way we go for voice up here, or at least 110 blocks. I cringe every time I have to flip the blade on my punch tool over for 66.


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## jeffmoss26

Don't worry, I feel the same way when I see a 110 or Krone block. Never see BIX here.


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## Ty Wrapp

chewy said:


> ADSL, Theres an incoming 1 pair line which has data and voice, the data is carried on different frequencys from the voice and is heard as slight "noise" in the background unless you use a splitter/filter....2 unfiltered lines for alarm panel and one port to go into the modem.


You need to filter the dial tone going to the alarm if it has DSL on it.


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## chewy

Ty Wrapp said:


> You need to filter the dial tone going to the alarm if it has DSL on it.


It goes into the alarm then out and up to the splitter, my spec said that I have to go through the alarm before the splitter.


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## Ty Wrapp

jeffmoss26 said:


> I've done it but I prefer 66 blocks for voice. Much easier to loop the cross connect through.





Dawizman said:


> 66 blocks are gross! BIX is the way we go for voice up here, or at least 110 blocks. I cringe every time I have to flip the blade on my punch tool over for 66.





jeffmoss26 said:


> Don't worry, I feel the same way when I see a 110 or Krone block. Never see BIX here.


This is my solution...


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## DIYer4Life

I once worked with an electrician who said that phone and data stuff was easy. He called the guys that did it "collage makers" (cause they carry scissors) :laughing:


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## Ty Wrapp

chewy said:


> It goes into the alarm then out and up to the splitter, my spec said that I have to go through the alarm before the splitter.


A large majority of my DSL trouble calls resulted in the DSL not being filtered off before going into the alarm. Install filter and all is good.

Things may have changed in the last 18 months since I have retired. Maybe Larmguy can chime in!


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## chewy

Ty Wrapp said:


> A large majority of my DSL trouble calls resulted in the DSL not being filtered off before going into the alarm. Install filter and all is good.
> 
> Things may have changed in the last 18 months since I have retired. Maybe Larmguy can chime in!


Ill charge them $400 to install one before the alarm goes out if it proves to be an issue for them.

At my house my internet always drops out and I have to restart my router/modem, is that more of hardware or a wiring issue you reckon? The alarm goes out before the plug in filter.


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## MHElectric

I have no idea what im looking at in that first picture. 

Could one of you phone guys explain to me what chewy did, and dont use any big words. :laughing:


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## Ty Wrapp

MHElectric said:


> I have no idea what im looking at in that first picture.
> 
> Could one of you phone guys explain to me what chewy did, and dont use any big words. :laughing:


He looped the incoming dial tone wire thru 4 outgoing ports.


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## Dawizman

chewy said:


> At my house my internet always drops out and I have to restart my router/modem, is that more of hardware or a wiring issue you reckon? The alarm goes out before the plug in filter.


I would say you need a filter before that alarm panel. Sounds like typical unfiltered device on dsl loop sort of issue. We have practically stopped using a phone line for our security installs. They are all ip based with a gsm backup now.


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## Ty Wrapp

chewy said:


> Ill charge them $400 to install one before the alarm goes out if it proves to be an issue for them.
> 
> At my house my internet always drops out and I have to restart my router/modem, is that more of hardware or a wiring issue you reckon? The alarm goes out before the plug in filter.





Dawizman said:


> I would say you need a filter before that alarm panel. Sounds like typical unfiltered device on dsl loop sort of issue. We have practically stopped using a phone line for our security installs. They are all ip based with a gsm backup now.


The plug in filters are useless when you have an alarm system because the alarm does not get filtered. Use one of these as follows....











From the demarc run a wire to this filter. Inside this filter are 3 pairs of screws 

Network-incoming dial tone/DSL

Data-run a wire from here to your DSL modem

Voice- run a wire from here to your alarm RJ31X

From the alarm RJ31X run a wire back to your phone connections.

The voice line is now filtered to the alarm RJ31X and onto the phone connections.

*Remove* *ALL plug in filters. They are no longer needed, the whole house is filtered except for the DSL modem jack.*

*http://wiki.hometech.com/tiki-index.php?page=DSL+Installation+Tutorial*

*http://www.suttleonline.com/catalog...l-filters-splitters/outdoor-dsl-splitter.html*


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## jeffmoss26

I've seen that same damn splitter installed and removed 2 or 3 times at my customer's office.
They originally had a splitter AND a dsl filter that goes IN the NID (hanging from its wires, of course) then just a splitter, then the tech took the splitter guts out and crammed the NID filter inside the splitter's box...WTF


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## Ty Wrapp

It's not rocket science...it only takes a basic understanding of how a DSL circuit works. More than one in line filter on a circuit leads to trouble. The Demarc filters are notorious for shorting out, I find that the filter shown to be more reliable.


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## jeffmoss26

I've been back there to work on other stuff, and every time I notice a new DSL modem or a new filter..lol


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## RWallace

Agreed. I have done it too, usually when the customer does not want to pay to run another ethernet cable


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## LARMGUY

Ty Wrapp said:


> A large majority of my DSL trouble calls resulted in the DSL not being filtered off before going into the alarm. Install filter and all is good.
> 
> Things may have changed in the last 18 months since I have retired. Maybe Larmguy can chime in!


 

Ding Dong!

http://wiki.hometech.com/tiki-index.php?page=DSL+Installation+Tutorial

This is what I use. As stated, it plugs in at the RJ31X.










Here is what I'm seeing now.

It breaks out the Data, Voice and Ethernet



With this box you don't need the filter above.





Typical phone guy was here......

What's the difference between data and network?


Typical cable guy was here... from today's service call.


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## LARMGUY

Dawizman said:


> I would say you need a filter before that alarm panel. Sounds like typical unfiltered device on dsl loop sort of issue. We have practically stopped using a phone line for our security installs. They are all ip based with a gsm backup now.





We use these as primary all the time.
Using the right burg panel you can also program the panel and remote connect to your alarm via your smartphone.

Ademco version of these.


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## five.five-six

Iv'e seen worse



LARMGUY said:


> Ding Dong!
> 
> http://wiki.hometech.com/tiki-index.php?page=DSL+Installation+Tutorial
> 
> Typical cable guy was here... from today's service call.


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## Hippie

chewy said:


> Ill charge them $400 to install one before the alarm goes out if it proves to be an issue for them.
> 
> At my house my internet always drops out and I have to restart my router/modem, is that more of hardware or a wiring issue you reckon? The alarm goes out before the plug in filter.



if you have dsl i would almost guarantee its because the hub youre on is overloaded. Ive been dealing with the same thing for 3 years now, new modems, had telco check lines, ran new cable to modem, switched pairs in the drop to my house, etc they finally admitted it was their problem but it still hsppens


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## lortech

*The termination is correct if you want to run one line for four phones*

But as for the rest of the installation...horrid!!! I wonder why the tech did not run another pair for a second line...just in case the company needed it for fax or another line? Waste of time to go back and do it again.


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## lortech

*you made a good point. The thing is...*

It is becomming more standard to use two rj45 jacks one for voice one for data and have them colored white or blue to differenciate. 





five.five-six said:


> If it's dial tone on a RJ45 jack, then it is hack. the reason is that (in the US) dial tone is 48V DC, a ring is generated by superimposing 90V AC giving you the potential of 138V peeks, which can fry a NIC in short order. That said, I have done it in a pinch LOL.


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## chewy

lortech said:


> It is becomming more standard to use two rj45 jacks one for voice one for data and have them colored white or blue to differenciate.


But they both do the same thing, you just change the patching over, the only thing that should ever be labelled on an outlet is the port number and what rack it comes from.


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## lortech

*labeling is very important*

for a small office not such a huge issue. For a 20,000 square foot shopping center, big deal. A electrician forgot to label the cables at both ends and I had to trace them out and labeling them, because each POS terminal was managed though a switch a switch port. What a waste of time that was! 

Thanks for the reminder, I never gave it though of data being installed into a copper analog line and cooking the nic card.


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## otony

Ty Wrapp said:


> This is my solution...
> 
> http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/TyWrapp/media/010_zps184834b8.jpg.html


Hey Ty,
Slick custom work dude! I too am doing a bit of data work. I'm looking at cat 6 cable out there and see a copper clad type. Lower cost what do you think of performance? I'm looking voip upgrade job.


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## jeffmoss26

Copper clad aluminum...just no. There is a ton of counterfeit cable out there also.


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## Keyrick

five.five-six said:


> If it's dial tone on a RJ45 jack, then it is hack. the reason is that (in the US) dial tone is 48V DC, a ring is generated by superimposing 90V AC giving you the potential of 138V peeks, which can fry a NIC in short order. That said, I have done it in a pinch LOL.


Ethernet RJ-45 uses pins 1,2,3 & 6. An RJ-11 phone plug inserted into that jack uses pins 4 & 5. It is not an issue unless you are using 10gig Ethernet, which uses all 8 pins.


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## jeffmoss26

1 gig uses 4 pairs...


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## Keyrick

I stand corrected!


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## five.five-six

jeffmoss26 said:


> 1 gig uses 4 pairs...


So does POE.


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## Edrick

You guys are still using analog phone pairs? Jesus you're dinosaurs. VoIP is where it's at


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## jeffmoss26

We have a full Cisco VOIP system at work, still have POTS lines for fax machines. POTS still works. End of story.


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## Edrick

jeffmoss26 said:


> We have a full Cisco VOIP system at work, still have POTS lines for fax machines. POTS still works. End of story.


Outside of alarms and faxes


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## Ty Wrapp

Edrick said:


> You guys are still using analog phone pairs? Jesus you're dinosaurs. VoIP is where it's at


I still have analog voice at home! It is part of my benefit package for retirees, free analog service. Plus I need analog for international long distance service, girlfriends parents live in Mexico and she calls them often. AT&T Uverse Voip does not support international long distance.


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## Edrick

Ty Wrapp said:


> I still have analog voice at home! It is part of my benefit package for retirees, free analog service. Plus I need analog for international long distance service, girlfriends parents live in Mexico and she calls them often. AT&T Uverse Voip does not support international long distance.


Have you checked out vonage? Although if you get it for free suppose there's no point in paying for it


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## five.five-six

Sup CWA?


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## 8V71

I tried FIOS for internet a few years back and cancelled within the trial period. OK, hook my POTS line back up....sorry sir, we don't do that.:001_huh: So now I have a bigass fiber box on the side of the house for a phone that I don't use.


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## Ty Wrapp

Edrick said:


> Have you checked out vonage? Although if you get it for free suppose there's no point in paying for it


Yup, free long distance also :thumbup:


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## Hippie

Edrick said:


> Have you checked out vonage? Although if you get it for free suppose there's no point in paying for it


Vonage is awesome I have it for phone and fax. You can't beat it for the price and the voicemail to email and call forwarding are awesome for quickly handling calls when I'm not home


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## lortech

*You can use a patch panel for voice. That loop is for line one*

When two lines phones are installed and all share line one and line two, that picture of the looping of the white/blue is typical. Second line would be white orange. For the patch panel looking like that...horrid  Ohh I have seen much much worse.




chewy said:


> Forgot pic


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## Going_Commando

Edrick said:


> Outside of alarms and faxes


Who the heck still faxes? Are there people that have never heard of scanning and emailing?


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## union347sparky

Going_Commando said:


> Who the heck still faxes? Are there people that have never heard of scanning and emailing?


Same people who rock a beeper and a car phone.


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## lortech

*Who still faxes? sill a purpous*

Fax is considered a legal document. I once knew of a investor that snatched up a sweet deal of a house, simply by having the seller sign the contract and send it to the buyer. Deal done. 

Its simpler. When the power goes out, the Pole batteries for the cable is dead, if you have a ups running a fax, then the CO office line is still alive. But in a case like this is rare.

Some business do not have Internet. The reasons could be..not needed. I have a fax/printer up stairs but don't use the fax because it is a voice line. Also, faxes are hard copy and don't get corrupted, deleted, shorted or die  They are generally in small business offices.


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## Wired4Life10

Going_Commando said:


> Who the heck still faxes? Are there people that have never heard of scanning and emailing?


I hate them but people use it because it's as easy as dialing a phone number.


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