# bad 277v experience last week



## Southeast Power

Aside from you being immediately terminated, what policy does your shop have about supervising apprentices?
You really set yourself up up as a fatality.
I'm not saying that I haven't done exactly what doing but, what didn't you at least put a piece of tape over the breaker?
Why was someone turning on breakers?
The entire crew/ shop should close for the day and have intense safety training.


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## m_alverson

Honestly I have no idea. I was only working to help out my buddy who is the forman because they were behind on the building. Incident was 100% my fault not the apprentices. I was in a rush just to get the one light made up like an idiot. I did at least put tape on the breaker. I take full responsibility in what happen. Even though I'm not a 20 year vet I have been in long enough and been through the proper training on what not to do and I did it anyway. Unfortunately some of the guys such as the apprentice have not had the same training nor will their company probably ever give it to them.


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## 99cents

No judgment here. We all get caught up in the heat of the moment. At least you're still alive. Lesson learned.

When I was a first year apprentice working on cheap condos, I got hit with 120V and it threw me across a bedroom. You're lucky (as if you're feeling lucky right now...) that you landed back in the lift and didn't get thrown to the floor. 

Thank you for sharing. It's an important reminder to all of us.


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## m_alverson

I have been hit by 120 once and it was like a bee sting compared to this. I can't even describe the feeling. Just glad it wasn't worse. Made another doctor appointment to look at my arm. Still hurting bad. It's affected me mentally too. Just haven't been the same. Has anyone else experienced this ? Did it ever stop hurting?


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## Black Dog

m_alverson said:


> I have been hit by 120 once and it was like a bee sting compared to this. I can't even describe the feeling. Just glad it wasn't worse. Made another doctor appointment to look at my arm. Still hurting bad. It's affected me mentally too. Just haven't been the same. Has anyone else experienced this ? Did it ever stop hurting?


Been there and yes unless the muscle in your arm was severely burned the pain will go away after some time passes,,,But the doctor should be looking at it right now.

1. Electrical work is dangerous, so working at a slow steady pace should be the order of the day. Electricians are STUPID! one day some moron decided that electrical work MUST be done faster than any man can do it, Electricians are STUPID!-----Ever see plumbers working like speed queens---NOPE because, Plumbers are not STUPID! they all take their time and do the job right.

Working at a fast pace that most men cannot handle Leeds to accidents and death----Death is permanent, work fast enough and death will find you. So if your boss tells you that you are too slow, tell him to go  himself,, that's right,Him! go find another job where a safer pace is on...

2. You were lucky----this time. You fell off of the rail into the lift, you could of fell out of the lift and death would have found you----thank god you are Okay.

I don't care what anyone tells you working fast is just plain stupid. this is electrical work, not a god dam game.

********************************

Back in 1986 I had my helper install all the switches and receptacles, he did them really fast in fact, faster then ever(I should have checked his work) but we were in a hurry, so we were dropping in 2x4 fixtures with BX cable. The switch was off and I put tape on the switch so no one would turn it on. This was the super heavy BX so you needed roto-splits to split the cable, I grab hold of the BX and roto-split it, I twist off the sheath, my left hand is holding the metal sheath that is grounded, My right hand is holding the spit sheath and gets caught on the black wire that is live 277 volts WTF! I could not let go and my hands were squeezing the hell out of the cable and my arms are shaking violently---I was hung up! and jumped off of the 8' ladder to get off of the live 277.........My helper put the switches in without wiring them. the switch legs were all wire nutted together so the other lights would stay on, he did the same with all of the receptacles he installed.

This kid said he did it that way because he was afraid he was going to be fired for being slow, apparently the boss chewed his ass out the day before on another job and warned him if he did not work faster he would be fired.

When the kid told me this I went to the shop and asked the boss if he had chewed him out for being slow, he said yes I did.....I told him what happened and quit on the spot, I was working elsewhere the next week my arms were sore as hell for about 3 weeks...

Working fast is just plain stupidity and gets people killed every day..


Welcome to the forum....:thumbup:


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## telsa

I HATE shops/ foremen that force the tempo of the job.

I get my speed by not having to come back and re-do the work: it's right the first time.

[ My personal trade experiences wiping a$$es has warped my sense of tempo. ]

My house rule is that, when foreman, I'm the only one authorized to turn on a C/B. Period. 

( My commercial jobs are small jobs, 2,000 Amps or less, so I can pull this off.)

Whereas, anyone can turn off a C/B.

&&&&

The general rule of thumb is that the body damage from 277 vs 120 is about ten-to-one, at least.

Somehow the higher voltage really cramps the muscles -- hence the endless tales of j-men that found they couldn't let go -- they'd lost control of their hands and arms.

If that same current was to travel to ground via their brain -- they would have died.

The only reason that they had any leg motor volition is that the 277 VAC was not jolting down their spine or legs. This explains why so many survivors describe deliberately collapsing away from the contact. 

Since the scissor lifts are insulated from the floor (it's their tires) the amps are racing from the contact to wherever the upper body (typ.) is contacting the T-grid or EMT. It's for this reason you want to develop the habit of NEVER bracing your body against such well grounded elements.

Working around hot circuits while sweating profusely is also a terrible idea. Your risk is compounded.

I mention these habits because most of the jolts I've witnessed occurred when the electrician disturbed a wire nut ( typ. red ) which fell off of #10 stranded THHN. Stranded wire is springy. A rushed job means that the crew rushed their make-up and didn't really seat their connections. All of the junction cans will end up being hair-balls, too. So you have to pull connections back out of the crammed box to even see what's up. 

It's for the above reason that you can't relax even when a breaker lock is positively installed on your target circuit. 

I got stuck doing such troubleshooting -- countless hours -- and became paranoid forever after.

That's why -- in other threads -- I post about not trusting nothing -- to include the factory. 

Factory work employs folks at low wages (typ.) so that their employee turnover is high. The result is that you can count on scarcely trained assemblies -- on a hit or miss basis -- ALL THE TIME. 

This is true regardless of the nation producing the stuff. 

At some point, new hires are doing the work. 

Some day, the engineers will hand down the wrong schematic to the assembly troops.
[ Bonding schemes are not the same world-wide.]

I'll never forget a brand new high tech daughter card I paid large for. It's DIP switch settings were perfectly wrong, 180 degrees wrong. It's the kind of mistake that happens when the schematic is up side down or the daughter board is. In this particular case, a call to their tech doped out the problem. By the time he put the phone down -- his hair was on fire. EVERY unit that had been recently made had come off the single production line -- with every DIP switch set upside-down! 

So keep your T5-600 handy at all times... and your influence testers...


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## ponyboy

Something sounds fishy here. What kind of chit for brains no sense at all apprentice would remove tape from a breaker and close said breaker without as much as a thought that it might be off for a reason. And if the answer is he's a first or second year and didn't know any better... well wtf is he doing going near a panel board in the first place? A more likely scenario would be the op tried to work it hot and got bit, that makes way more sense then the series of events he's described. Fwiw taping off a breaker is just asking for trouble BUT if some mush mouth took the tape off and energized I would find him and whoop his ass, after I got my legs back...jk, but I'd be livid. Anyway, glad you lived to tell the story and welcome to the 277 club. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## m_alverson

Defiantly was not trying to work anything hot. I am 110% against working anything hot. Screw that. Story was he was told to go in to turn a circuit on. They were trouble shooting an emergency power circuit and a carpenter was shooting a ramset gun and supposedly scared the guy and he hit the wrong breaker. Story I was told . Don't know if it was the truth but all I can go by. I had already made about 10 of these lights up and was on the last.


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## just the cowboy

*Both wrong*

If it happened as you say, don't NOT blame the person that turned it on. You may save someone’s life by reaming out the person that turned it on, it should be something they NEVER forget. 
SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY don't forget. 
Someone said to me once "aren't you scared working with electricity". My answer was " I go to work every day thinking I can die if I'm not careful, but you can't be scared." So I think about what I am doing, and it's not just me that I can hurt.


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## MDShunk

A tag and a zip tie are a legal lock. -or- borrow a lock from someone. You had options.


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## pete87

m_alverson said:


> I have been hit by 120 once and it was like a bee sting compared to this. I can't even describe the feeling. Just glad it wasn't worse. Made another doctor appointment to look at my arm. Still hurting bad. It's affected me mentally too. Just haven't been the same. Has anyone else experienced this ? Did it ever stop hurting?





When you feel like a Bell and its Ringing , your sense shrinks and tightens up .
Your getting Hit .


Ce Bareful Out There .

Pete


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## JW Splicer

m_alverson said:


> Defiantly was not trying to work anything hot. I am 110% against working anything hot. Screw that. Story was he was told to go in to turn a circuit on. They were trouble shooting an emergency power circuit and a carpenter was shooting a ramset gun and supposedly scared the guy and he hit the wrong breaker. Story I was told . Don't know if it was the truth but all I can go by. I had already made about 10 of these lights up and was on the last.


277 hurts!!!


But, thanks for sharing. This safety forum should be judgement free. We all know the rules, sometimes we try to get away with something. We've all done something very similar and have gotten lucky as well. We all have some things we won't ever do that way again...


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## MXer774

I bet you'll start treating everything like it's energized until proven LOTO, dead, and bonded to grounding system huh.


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## drsparky

I knew a guy who got hung up on 277. He spent a few days in the hospital, his labs were all screwed up. 
After he got "better" his personality changed, he went from happy go luck to mean, seemed to always want to fight.
I think a few connections in his brain got burned out and rewired.
Just be mindful of your social skills.


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## Rollie73

Never been bitten by 277 but I think that's only because I've rarely worked on 480/277. In my area its all 600/347 and I can speak from personal experience that 347 hurts like a sonofabitch!! Only got tagged by it once......and the muscles in my arms hurt for a week or more and I had a hard time sleeping for days.


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## macmikeman

Get to a doctor, and let em give you the go over. Heard about guys dropping dead two days after the shock from 277.


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## telsa

BTW, A LEFT ARM pain = heart damage (typ)

The way the human brain is wired, it conflates heart pain signals with pain in the upper left arm.

You are an excellent candidate for a wounded heart -- and not in the metaphorical sense.


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## wildleg

some reading links:

[URL="http://www.doctor-clinic.org/injuries/electric-shock.html"]http://www.doctor-clinic.org/injuries/electric-shock.html[/URL]


http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/rhabdomyolysis-symptoms-causes-treatments

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/causes-of-rhabdomyolysis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2359775


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## Southeast Power

m_alverson said:


> Honestly I have no idea. I was only working to help out my buddy who is the forman because they were behind on the building. Incident was 100% my fault not the apprentices. I was in a rush just to get the one light made up like an idiot. I did at least put tape on the breaker. I take full responsibility in what happen. Even though I'm not a 20 year vet I have been in long enough and been through the proper training on what not to do and I did it anyway. Unfortunately some of the guys such as the apprentice have not had the same training nor will their company probably ever give it to them.


I didn't intend to come off as judgmental. My concern is that your shop might have a safety issue.
This means that it wasn't just one action that resulted in your accident, it was the cumulative actions of more than one person. 

It's been a while since I have been on a nuke plant but we had a list of safety precursors.
Some of them were:
First time evolution
Repetitive tasks
First day back after days off.

Maybe someone here can help out with that list.

You might be the right person to be your shop safety person.
You have a good field story to share
You can explain yourself well in writing
Read up on the subject, take some classes, worse thing that could happen is that you save a life.


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## WronGun

Scary stuff , gotta have a full proof safety protocol in these situations... These things can be avoided.


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## bkmichael65

If that pain in your arm persists, have the doctor give you another check up. Pain can sometimes be from cells dying and then you face the possibility of sepsis setting in


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## pete87

JW Splicer;2141962
277 hurts!!!
...[/QUOTE said:


> Agreed . I wonder if he got Hit on the Neutral side ? Some real bad Hits that way .
> 
> 
> " Ce Bareful " out there !
> 
> 
> Pete


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## Michigan Master

Thanks for sharing; it is certainly great reminder to us all and I hope you feel better soon.



jrannis said:


> I'm not saying that I haven't done exactly what doing but, what didn't you at least put a piece of tape over the breaker?


Tape over the breaker is my last option, and even then I wouldn’t solely depend on it. 
1. Go get my lock. _(This is the only option that meets our corporate safety requirements.)_
2. Borrow someone else’s lock. 
3. Have someone I trust stand guard at the panel.
4. If within eyesight, lock the panel door, take the key and post a note (if not within eyesight then glove up).
5. Tape on the breaker post a note/tag and then work it as if it were hot (i.e. class 0 gloves)



m_alverson said:


> I have been hit by 120 once and it was like a bee sting compared to this. I can't even describe the feeling. Just glad it wasn't worse. Made another doctor appointment to look at my arm. Still hurting bad. It's affected me mentally too. Just haven't been the same. Has anyone else experienced this ? Did it ever stop hurting?


Ever hear of diffuse electrical injury (DEI)?

http://ecmweb.com/shock-electrocution/what-happens-when-electricity-doesnt-play-rules

http://www.electricalinjury.com/publications/MORSE_EMBS_DEI_03.pdf



ponyboy said:


> What kind of chit for brains no sense at all apprentice would remove tape from a breaker and close said breaker without as much as a thought that it might be off for a reason


He was fixing the problem of why the lights were off...:hammer:
.


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## pete87

I am surprised no one said to ... When you do not have a lock .

Take the wire Off of the Breaker .





Pete


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## ELECTRICK2

Taking the panel cover off and removing the wire of the circuit you are working on, has worked well for me.


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## ponyboy

ELECTRICK2 said:


> Taking the panel cover off and removing the wire of the circuit you are working on, has worked well for me.



What about all the suiting up and testing you have to do to pull that off compliantly? I know most people would just pull the deadfront off and remove the wire but this threads about safety and that ain't safe. Bottom line is it just doesn't pay to work without a good loto system


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zog

A common after effect of electric shock is lack of ability to form paragraphs. 

Seriously though, you got lucky, OSHA rules exist for a reason and it only takes one mistake to be your last.


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## sbrn33

MDShunk said:


> A tag and a zip tie are a legal lock. -or- borrow a lock from someone. You had options.


 While I agree with this, have you ever taken tape off a breaker and turned it on without knowing what it would energize?


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## Michigan Master

MDShunk said:


> A tag and a zip tie are a legal lock. -or- borrow a lock from someone. You had options.


While permitted by OSHA, tagout without a lock is only "legal" if it complies with your employer's control of hazardous energy policy. 


sbrn33 said:


> While I agree with this, have you ever taken tape off a breaker and turned it on without knowing what it would energize?


A formal tagout system is quite different than just tape on a breaker... For starters, it tells you who you must speak to before re-energizing the circuit. With tape who knows who did it, or when it was done - could've been that way for a while because someone no longer onsite forgot to remove it.


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## Meadow

Glad you are doing better, thats all that matters.

IMO its better to learn like this then to not learn at all when its to late. Trust me, Ive learned the hard way also: do anything to make sure power stays off. Put everything under one wire nut if you have to (good trick Ive used).


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## MDShunk

Michigan Master said:


> While permitted by OSHA, tagout without a lock is only "legal" if it complies with your employer's control of hazardous energy policy.


You miss my point. I'm saying the zip tie itself meets the legal definition of a lock. Osha had posted a copy of a letter on their site they sent one person who inquired about this specific question. There was a similar letter that clarified that a combination lock is also acceptable.


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## Almost always lurkin

meadow said:


> Glad you are doing better, thats all that matters.
> 
> IMO its better to learn like this then to not learn at all when its to late. Trust me, Ive learned the hard way also: do anything to make sure power stays off. Put everything under one wire nut if you have to (good trick Ive used).


How safe is it for the [pick a bad word] who is closing the breaker (on the circuit you're touching) to close a breaker into a bolted fault?


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## Meadow

Almost always lurkin said:


> How safe is it for the [pick a bad word] who is closing the breaker (on the circuit you're touching) to close a breaker into a bolted fault?




Not to bad as being electrocuted. In the MV/HV industry if its not grounded (shorted) its not dead.

Plus a guy who purposely closes a breaker in such a cases deserves whats coming to him.


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## RIVETER

[quote=m_alverson;21 So, you explained that to the owner of the company and explained that is why you are paying for your medical costs...right???


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## Almost always lurkin

m_alverson said:


> <snip>It's affected me mentally too. Just haven't been the same. Has anyone else experienced this ?


Internal burns will do that. My wife's radiation treatment is causing her some slowness and confusion, despite the beam going nowhere near her head.


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## joebanana

Yeah, I realize this is an ancient post, but..... I got a story about a sparky named Smokey. Same scenario, school retrofits, took a break. Smokey didn't know where the breaker was, so he just turned off the wall switch, sometime during his break, someone turned that switch on, and left it on. Well imagine Smokie's surprise when he got between a grid wire, and a hot one. The ladder went flying, the ceiling grid came down, tools were thrown, and Smokie blew a hole on his thumb. That's how Smokie got his name. 
A word of caution, if you get hit hard, you're supposed to be medically supervised for the first 24 hours. Even if you're "okay".


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## Kevin

joebanana said:


> A word of caution, if you get hit hard, you're supposed to be medically supervised for the first 24 hours. Even if you're "okay".


Someone told me this years ago after i shared my story when I got hooked on 120 volts that went in 1 hand up my arm across my chest down my other arm and out my other hand.


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## Tonedeaf

You were lucky....now you know....electricity can be deadly


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## Kevin

Tonedeaf said:


> You were lucky....now you know....electricity can be deadly


Oh I knew that before. Now I just don't touch 2 things at once, unless I know 1000% the power is off.


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## 205490

25yrs ago while doing service work at a manufacturing company, their ops manager (friend) implored me to look at the coroner's van parked at a neighboring company. A j-man from a different C-10 was landing trouffers hot (277v) he gacked himself on the loaded neutral. He was on a 10ftr working through a 2×2 to access top of fixtures.
EMT 's said his elbow was against the grid, he lost unconscious and the fall finished him.
Please be careful out there. Things can go wrong...fast.


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## kb1jb1

I know this is an old thread but we should view it as a friendly reminder. Most of us will get complacent over time so it is better we read about it than feel the burn. Not Bernie.


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