# asking canidians mounting a panel horizontally



## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

I love watching home improvement shows and have discovered Canada's own Mike Holmes. This guy is a all around super g.c. Now my question for any Canadian and other American electricians on this show they have the electricians mounting residential panels horizontally. I have worked here in New Jersey and never seen this practice , not even sure if it is acceptable here? So is this common practice in Canada??:001_huh:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

van2977 said:


> I love watching home improvement shows and have discovered Canada's own Mike Holmes. This guy is a all around super g.c. Now my question for any Canadian and other American electricians on this show they have the electricians mounting residential panels horizontally. I have worked here in New Jersey and never seen this practice , not even sure if it is acceptable here? So is this common practice in Canada??:001_huh:


 You can't use the breakers on the "top" side because they will flip the wrong way. I'm not sure of the article number off hand.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We have building codes and inspections here.
He wouldn't last long here trying to build a deck to meet 150 mph wind loads.


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> You can't use the breakers on the "top" side because they will flip the wrong way. I'm not sure of the article number off hand.



Would explain y I never have run across this hear. So are the panel gut configured diffrent in Canada ya think? Like I said this t.v. show has these guys putting them in like that all the time.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

The electricians on Holmes on Homes are almost as lame as shokdoc. 

Almost.

They have a very hard time explaining their work and why the work in the houses they work on is so poorly done.

They piss me off on a fairly regular basis.


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

jrannis said:


> We have building codes and inspections here.
> He wouldn't last long here trying to build a deck to meet 150 mph wind loads.



I dont know if u ever saw the show he seems to be a real bl breaker on using inspectors and licensed contractors professionals etc.. he has like a 15 min rant on every show about hiring quality contractors and involving inspectors.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

404.7


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

never done it, never seen it. Ontario boys?


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## charlie Bob (Jul 26, 2009)

van2977 said:


> I dont know if u ever saw the show he seems to be a real bl breaker on using inspectors and licensed contractors professionals etc.. he has like a 15 min rant on every show about hiring quality contractors and involving inspectors.


What's the name of the show?


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

charlie Bob said:


> What's the name of the show?



Holmes on homes


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

van2977 said:


> I dont know if u ever saw the show he seems to be a real bl breaker on using inspectors and licensed contractors professionals etc.. he has like a 15 min rant on every show about hiring quality contractors and involving inspectors.


I know, and then he uses the same lame ass EC every time.

I saw an episode today and I wasn't really watching too much but they wre moving the location of a washer/dryer. The guy capped the wires in an existing dryer outlet by splicing all the wires together (hot to neutral)... then blanking it off. Not sure what his reasoning was and I've never seen that before so i thought it to be odd.


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> I know, and then he uses the same lame ass EC every time.
> 
> I saw an episode today and I wasn't really watching too much but they wre moving the location of a washer/dryer. The guy capped the wires in an existing dryer outlet by splicing all the wires together (hot to neutral)... then blanking it off. Not sure what his reasoning was and I've never seen that before so i thought it to be odd.



I saw that today too.He said so if anyone turns on the pwr it will "blow the brkr" thought that was a odd practice.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

van2977 said:


> I saw that today too.He said so if anyone turns on the pwr it will "blow the brkr" thought that was a odd practice.


Is that what he said? How idiotic. how about just taking the hots/hot out of the breaker?
Thank you. i thought I was still drunk from last night when I saw that or missed something.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

van2977 said:


> I saw that today too.He said so if anyone turns on the pwr it will "blow the brkr" thought that was a odd practice.


 I would think that he would reuse the breaker it was on.


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I would think that he would reuse the breaker it was on.



Pretty sure he also said he pulled the wires from the brkr. but also did that tie together thing for the washer outlet.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

van2977 said:


> I dont know if u ever saw the show he seems to be a real bl breaker on using inspectors and licensed contractors professionals etc.. he has like a 15 min rant on every show about hiring quality contractors and involving inspectors.


Thats why he is better than everybody else. :laughing:


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

hmmm well maybe this is y ther are not too many electrical do it yourself shows , bunch of full timers would just pick it apart.:whistling2:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Nice looking family you got there Van2977


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

van2977 said:


> hmmm well maybe this is y ther are not too many electrical do it yourself shows , bunch of full timers would just pick it apart.:whistling2:


Hell, we pick each other apart. A diy show doesn't have a chance.:laughing:


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> Nice looking family you got there Van2977


and yours too.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

In all fairness, I've seen much worse on diy and hgtv. I saw a new show on hgtv with this contractor who had a complete meltdown because there was some k&t mixed with NM in a house he was working on. It was really a mess but he was freaking out because there was actually _knob and tube wiring_ in there. Cause k&t _kills_ everyone involved. 
:thumbup:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

van2977 said:


> and yours too.


My new avatar is going to be a picture of me, my girlfriend, and a can of beer.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> My new avatar is going to be a picture of me, my girlfriend, and a can of beer.


niiiiice:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> never done it, never seen it. Ontario boys?


Yeah I've seen it in a few places, its pretty rare, and it always seems to be contractors that like FPE stab-lok panels 

Never done it myself either.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> 404.7


That works but 240.81 also nails it as well.

As far as mounting panels sideways along with the above sections we also have 240.33 which generally requires enclosures for over current protection to be mounted vertically.

You could mount a panel sideways under the NEC but you would only be able to use 1/2 the spaces.


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

It's very common here in Newfoundland to have the breaker panel mounted horizontally. I've seen it in the lab at college and also when I helped with wiring a house last summer. It makes sense for space considerations, especially if a large panel is involved.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I know horizontal mounts is against code but why? Does it go back to the days of knife switches? Maybe it is time for a code update.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> never done it, never seen it. Ontario boys?


I have seen a few installed that way here in Ontario but they were older homes. I've never come across a recent install that was done horizontally but then, I haven't done houses in a while. I looked in the Ontario ESC section 14-110(1) which says 



> Where the number of lighting branch circuits originating from a common enclosure exceeds:
> (a) two, in a single-phase 3-wire system; or
> (b) three, in a three-phase, 4-wire system,
> overcurrent devices protecting such circuits shall be contained in a panelboard.


but it doesn't specify the orientation of the panel. You even could put it upside down, I suppose. I looked but couldn't find another section that mentioned how a panel should be mounted.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I have noticed that the canadian panels have the main side seperated from the branch circuit section, they enter all the branch circuits in the sides of the panel for that reason, I have not seen any mounted sideways.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

drsparky said:


> I know horizontal mounts is against code but why? Does it go back to the days of knife switches? Maybe it is time for a code update.


 Horizontal panels are allowable as long as the main breaker falls out as up for on, down for off . that was according to my inspector on a panel change where we avoided changing the finish of the house.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> That works but 240.81 also nails it as well.
> 
> As far as mounting panels sideways along with the above sections we also have 240.33 which generally requires enclosures for over current protection to be mounted vertically.
> 
> You could mount a panel sideways under the NEC but you would only be able to use 1/2 the spaces.


 Agreed.


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## Landon54 (Mar 22, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with mounting a panel sideways, and gravity isn't going to switch the breakers off just because their upside down. On a lot of panel changes we do we have to mount the panels sideways because of space limitations. 26-402 of the CEC states that "Panelboards in dwelling units shall be installed as high as possible, with no overcurrent device operating handle positioned more than 1.7m above the finished floor level." It doesn't say anything about the orientation, because it doesn't matter.

And also connecting the black and white wire together isn't that bad of an idea because if someone was to turn the breaker on by accident, it would instantly trip and nobody would get electrocuted. If they were just capped off however, someone could go to move the box and they more than likely wouldn't test for voltage.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Landon54 said:


> And also connecting the black and white wire together isn't that bad of an idea because if someone was to turn the breaker on by accident, it would instantly trip and nobody would get electrocuted. If they were just capped off however, someone could go to move the box and they more than likely wouldn't test for voltage.


But if the hot isn't landed in the breaker, what's the difference? I don't like the idea of tripping breakers like that. It's sort of like the practice of being lazy and shorting to ground to work on a device just because you don't want to walk to the panel and manually turn the breaker off... sort of.


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## Landon54 (Mar 22, 2009)

you can always lock out the breaker if that makes you feel better


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Locking out has nothing to do with this. The breaker is now being used for different conductors, essentially abandoning the original ones. I don't see how making a potential short in a box helps with anything. 
Also in the case of splicing the hot to neutral in a j-box:
If someone took the neutral conductor out of the bus and then heated up the hot you'd now have a hot white wire in the panel. 
Why not just cap em and blank em off?


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## Landon54 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok just to let you know i've never done this myself, rather i cap off all the wires. I was talking about the topic you brought up in this thread which was the electrician on holmes on homes connecting the 2 wires together in a box. I'm just saying it's not a bad idea, not saying it's the only way to do things.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Our panels have to have the mains separated when its the main service disconnect. So if you want to pipe out the top you have to mount it sideways.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

randas said:


> Our panels have to have the mains separated when its the main service disconnect. So if you want to pipe out the top you have to mount it sideways.


yep that is the reason when replacing old with new the main is isolated with a barrier and you can't come in the top of the panel By mounting sideways you a gain length on the conductors because the new pnls are usually longer and you get to access the length of the pnl for entry


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

It is quite a common practice to mount panels sideways, although I prefer to mount them vertical (unless it's an existing panel change and there is no space) there is nothing in the CEC that prohibits mounting a panel horizontally...I really don't see a problem with it at all.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

plus the breaker handles give you a place to hang your socks to dry


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> It is quite a common practice to mount panels sideways, although I prefer to mount them vertical (unless it's an existing panel change and there is no space) there is nothing in the CEC that prohibits mounting a panel horizontally...I really don't see a problem with it at all.


Although its perfectly acceptable as far as the CEC is concerned calling it a common practice is a huge stretch... at least in the Ottawa region, the GTA could be pretty different.

I've been in hundreds of homes since getting into the trade, count the ones when I was a GC and that number easily jumps into the thousands and even back when I was a GC I'd take note of it since most of the time the panel plug and/or the fridge plug would be the only place you could get power and side mounted panels were always such a strange sight to me and I'd wonder why they'd do that.

Like I said, I've seen it done but its very rare. Can install all the plugs in a house sideways if you wanted or with grounds up and pass inspection, but you just don't see guys doing it without a reason and for the most part they stick to what everyone is used to.


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## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

van2977 said:


> I dont know if u ever saw the show he seems to be a real bl breaker on using inspectors and licensed contractors professionals etc.. he has like a 15 min rant on every show about hiring quality contractors and involving inspectors.


 I'll be damned if I going to stand here and listen to you bash Mike Holmes, the guy's the best contractor in the world.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Honda Racer said:


> I'll be damned if I going to stand here and listen to you bash Mike Holmes, the guy's the best contractor in the world.


What are you gonna do?


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## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

Forgery said:


> What are you gonna do?


I haven't decided yet Peter. :whistling2:


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## shockme123 (May 13, 2009)

sparky105 said:


> plus the breaker handles give you a place to hang your socks to dry


I hang my draws from mine :laughing:


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## Motley Crue (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't have that much faith in breakers... I've come across dozens that fail to trip. Usually the copper splashes away like lava. For that reason I won't wire a dead short together incase of Flashes. Hope you've seen the video.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Honda Racer said:


> I haven't decided yet Peter. :whistling2:


Let us know when you have, we'll be waiting...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Let us know when you have, we'll be waiting...


Who is "WE".. Mr. Sybil


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## r.man (Mar 11, 2010)

*panel orientation*

in an area with a high percentage of upgrades it is fairly common to see a panel sideways. it frequently cuts down on the number of juction boxes for short feeds. at one time the ontario rule gave a minimum panel height which in hindsight is ridiculous. i once had to change a panel in a ten foot basement that was 6 feet off the floor.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Love how hgtv advertises a Holmes on Homes banner ad on this site now.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> I'll be damned if I going to stand here and listen to you bash Mike Holmes, the guy's the best contractor in the world.



:sleep1:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:


_You can't take a Gfi off another Gfi!_-Holmes


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Mike_586 said:


> Although its perfectly acceptable as far as the CEC is concerned calling it a common practice is a huge stretch... at least in the Ottawa region, the GTA could be pretty different.
> 
> I've been in hundreds of homes since getting into the trade, count the ones when I was a GC and that number easily jumps into the thousands and even back when I was a GC I'd take note of it since most of the time the panel plug and/or the fridge plug would be the only place you could get power and side mounted panels were always such a strange sight to me and I'd wonder why they'd do that.
> 
> Like I said, I've seen it done but its very rare. Can install all the plugs in a house sideways if you wanted or with grounds up and pass inspection, but you just don't see guys doing it without a reason and for the most part they stick to what everyone is used to.


Yea, it is a very common thing in the GTA. When I did a lot of resi I would say that about 40 % if not more had panels mounted horizontally. New and old construction...


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> Yea, it is a very common thing in the GTA. When I did a lot of resi I would say that about 40 % if not more had panels mounted horizontally. New and old construction...


Funny how much of a difference a few hundred clicks make isn't it?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> I haven't decided yet Peter. :whistling2:


:sleep1:


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## CEC_king (Mar 14, 2010)

Motley Crue said:


> I don't have that much faith in breakers... I've come across dozens that fail to trip. Usually the copper splashes away like lava. For that reason I won't wire a dead short together incase of Flashes. Hope you've seen the video.



Let me guess. Federal Pioneer!


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## CEC_king (Mar 14, 2010)

electricnewf said:


> I hang my draws from mine :laughing:


yes by some good it is hung dere right warm day get luh


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

CEC_king said:


> yes by some good it is hung dere right warm day get luh


:blink: I tried, but it aint happening.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Mike_586 said:


> Funny how much of a difference a few hundred clicks make isn't it?


 
It certainly is!


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Holmes on Homes is great.. As long as you own a bank..


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I think the Canadian guys have pretty well summed the panel issue here. The only real code issue is the location of the highest breaker.

I would say that it is common in a majority of resi retrofits in Ontario...in new construction and commercial / industrial different story. You might find it in some new resi construction...but in 20+ years I don't recall seeing any in commercial or industrial installations, but I am sure there are...

A couple of other points that go with this...in Canada our panel are made differently and the main breaker area is separated from the branch circuit area. Somebody already mentioned it...so we cannot enter the main breaker area with branch circuit cables, so we are limited to the sides and bottom of the panel for cable entry.

WRT shorting out a wire as mentioned...I really can't see the reason for it. If you are doing the abandoning right (lets not bring up those threads again!!!) it should not be an issue. On the other hand, if the cable is removed from the source and the other ends are tied together...I don't see an issue with it either. I don't think any would recommend leaving the cable attached to the breaker and doing that. There is a proper way for taking care of that instance (see the threads that shall not be named!!!)

WRT the MH show...I think people have to realize that it is not a DIY show...and they have lots of money to bring the place up to standard / code or exceed when possible. Many will agree that he goes over the top...but the message is still sound...do it right the first time. I would say the show has generally brought the education of the average homeowner up to realize that the DIY stuff or the midnight tradesmen is the wrong way to go. The only problem is now everybody wants granite counter tops for arbourite prices...

Also in Canada, we did not have the same FPE problem that you had in the USA. FPE is still a popular brand in Canada and there is no stigma attached to FPE in Canada that there is in the USA. Having said that, I do try to opt for something else other then the NCO breaker arrangement.

Cheers


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I was told that #12 aluminum through #8 is still legal for installation in Canada. Is this true? Is it still manufactured as NM and AC cable . I don't believe everything I hear so I need to ask.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Also, what is the price on a 200 amp main breaker panel in CA ?


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I have never seen branch circuit wiring (#14-#6) available in AL. We do still use AL for service OH and UG. That is common. There is also a hybrid of CUAL that is available, but again I have not seen in the the smaller sizes.

A 200 amp panel...a lot of variables, but you can get one as a kit, comes with an assortment of breakers (including the main) for about $200 +/-. A load centre is actually more expensive; not sure why.

Cheers


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Navyguy said:


> I have never seen branch circuit wiring (#14-#6) available in AL. We do still use AL for service OH and UG. That is common. There is also a hybrid of CUAL that is available, but again I have not seen in the the smaller sizes.
> 
> A 200 amp panel...a lot of variables, but you can get one as a kit, comes with an assortment of breakers (including the main) for about $200 +/-. A load centre is actually more expensive; not sure why.
> 
> Cheers


(hybrid cual) Is that copper clad ? I would like to see a comeback of that product but I'm sure wall street won't make enough money off it in the states so it's something unlikely,


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## nick.pei (Jun 15, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Also, what is the price on a 200 amp main breaker panel in CA ?


If I recall correctly, 200amp 40 slot Federal panel with main breaker $95 on wholesalers invoice.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I was told that #12 aluminum through #8 is still legal for installation in Canada. Is this true? Is it still manufactured as NM and AC cable . I don't believe everything I hear so I need to ask.


Only AL branch wiring I see here is in the bin beside the renovation. (other than the stuff I try to repair) 

Large (long runs) feeders are still used often, as well as most overhead.


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