# VFD recomendations



## Jlarson

I've had good luck with AB, ABB, Danfoss (they'd be my top picks) Weg, Baldor, Yaskawa, Vacon, Siemens, Eaton (automation directs drives are the same OEM mostly), and Square D for the most part.

Just off the top of my head (cause it's the last drive I priced) a NEMA 1 ABB 10 hp goes for like 1,100 list.


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## MDShunk

I've always favored AllenBradley and TB Woods (Vacon). For no particular reason, other than I'm used to them. I've used or had to service almost everything under the sun, and I think they're all pretty much on par. I haven't used any that I thought absolutely sucked. A hundred bucks per motor horsepower would be a good rule of thumb. More for premium brands, less for value brands.


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## JRaef

Jlarson said:


> I've had good luck with AB, ABB, Danfoss (they'd be my top picks) Weg, Baldor, Yaskawa, Vacon, Siemens, Eaton (automation directs drives are the same OEM mostly), and Square D for the most part.
> 
> Just off the top of my head (cause it's the last drive I priced) a NEMA 1 ABB 10 hp goes for like 1,100 list.


Not a bad list, although my personal experience with the programming of the Sq.D / Telemecanique Altivar drives leaves me never wanting to experience that again. I'm sure they are fine drives and the feature list looks great on paper, but the translated French manual SUCKED!

Here's my list in order of favorites:

As far as ease of programming goes, I think the ABB wins hands down. Very intuitive, they guide you through everything important on the screen, but all the special tweaks are there for the hard core drive experts. Their PID loop setup and programming is the easiest I have ever seen on a VFD, and that's something you use a lot in pump applications.

A-B's drives have an advantage of being very well supported, there is a qualified A-B drives specialist in every nook and cranny of the US. The advantage there is that you can get very good training and support locally. Good quality, decent user friendliness on setup and programming too. But they can tend to be the high priced spread; if they think they own you, they'll make you pay top dollar. If you want to go that way, let the A-B guy know he has competition.

Vacon and Eaton are the same thing, but Vacon also took over the old TB Woods drive line, they are decent drives for newbies. I have been using Vacon drives recently, I like them but lots of people complain about the Cutler Hammer version not being well supported, one of the reasons Vacon started selling under their own name in the US.

Yaskawa are very good quality drives, nobody I know of complains about them. Their programming has become a little cumbersome however because they have been around so long now, their fans keep demanding more and more features and tweaks, so it gets a little daunting for a newcomer. But a good local resource can overcome that.

My current company uses a lot of Siemens drives, they have some nice features but you HAVE to use the programming software, because programming through their keypad is a PITA. The software is free though, as long as you have a notebook PC available. But for something simple like a pump, they are a little spendy compared to the rest of the market (A-B excepted).

Danfoss is big in the water/wastewater market, but it can be difficult to find a good rep/distributor in some smaller areas. I think their drives are nothing special, but nothing wrong with them either.

Mitsubishi; fine products, spendy in some areas. If I were going to spend that much, I'd buy A-B.

Emerson / Control Techniques: Good drives, same issue as Mitsubishi, plus the limited distribution issues that Danfoss has.

Teco also offers some good low cost drives, especially for simple applications like pumps. But once you want to start getting into more complex applications, you will have to go another route, which means learning something else later.

Ones to steer clear of in my opinion:


Toshiba: Once a mighty force in the VFD market, but same drives as Sq. D. now on the smaller versions, same factory etc., same issues.
AC Tech / Lenze; QC issues, although I hear they have improved since Lenze bought them, I haven't given them a 4th or 5th chance, been burned too many times there.
Hitachi; cheap but nothing special and more difficult to use than some others so not worth the hassle. If you are going to consider Hitachi, go with Teco instead.
Automation Direct / Delta; cheap drives, no support, you get what you pay for.
LS (LG) / Benshaw / Cerus all the same; brand labeled from LS (formerly LG) in Korea. Never liked them, when they first came to the US, LG lied about them being Vector Drives when they were not, I can't forgive them for that.
I've seen some QC issues with Baldor and Weg, but that was a few years ago, they probably fixed those. But again, I'm not prone to getting burned over and over, both of those two have done that to me.


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## Jlarson

JRaef said:


> Not a bad list, although my personal experience with the programming of the Sq.D / Telemecanique Altivar drives leaves me never wanting to experience that again. I'm sure they are fine drives and the feature list looks great on paper, but the translated French manual SUCKED!


Manual? Oh the useless paper I throw into a pile on the bench :laughing:


The Delta drives (ADC's, and Eaton's small drives) are pretty much like the bic pen of the drive market IMO. They have their place.


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## MDShunk

Jlarson said:


> The Delta drives (ADC's, and Eaton's small drives) are pretty much like the bic pen of the drive market IMO. They have their place.


Yessir. If you really only think you want a soft starter, buy maybe need another feature or two,.. might as well buy a cheap drive.


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## farlsincharge

Thanks guys. I was leaning towards AB already as they have a good reputation and I do have some limited experience with them.

The pool guys have oversized a pump for future expansion and right now they are throttling it with a valve, working the **** out of it and wasting money on energy.


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## JRaef

MDShunk said:


> Yessir. If you really only think you want a soft starter, buy maybe need another feature or two,.. might as well buy a cheap drive.


In my carreer I've only had 2 drives catch on fire just by being energized: one was a Durapulse (from Automation Direct) and the other a Delta (I think they are one and the same). I got them replaced in both cases, but I spent HOURS on the phone trying to get that to happen. In both cases the end users bought the VFDs over the internet and when they got frustrated trying to figure out how to connect them, hired me. Maybe they had "pre-fried" them before I got there and figured on blaming me, but I know what melted plastic smells like and I don't think either of them ever got farther than taking them out of the box and trying to read the manuals. The problem was, they were both loathe to pay me for all the phone time I had to spend trying to get replacements because the customer service reps kept saying I hooked them up wrong (as opposed to the THOUSANDS of VFDs I had hooked up prior to that). So although they paid the bills, I never got work from them again. 

Once bitten twice shy.

I can get a cheap Teco EV drive for $5 more than a Durapulse and I trust that thing (for what I expect of it) hands down. But we all have our separate experiences. I know people who think the Durapulse and Delta drives are just fine. So be it.


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## MDShunk

I've used TECO Plc's lately, and I have been impressed. I see their drives are also rebranded as Westinghouse.


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## Jlarson

I took the first Durapulse drive I got apart and dug around a bit. It wasn't the greatest thing ever as I remember but I felt ok enough about them. 

I'd prefer to get a Danfoss micro drive or a vacon instead but $$$$ is a factor sometimes


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## JRaef

farlsincharge said:


> Thanks guys. I was leaning towards AB already as they have a good reputation and I do have some limited experience with them.
> 
> The pool guys have oversized a pump for future expansion and right now they are throttling it with a valve, working the **** out of it and wasting money on energy.


Good application for a VFD, but only because they are going to someday use the added capacity. Otherwise, the proper way to do it would be to trim the impeller on the pump and get rid of the valve. But as an electrician, there is nothing in that for you, so the VFD will certainly work! :thumbup:

Your A-B guy should be able to hook you up with a software program that will calculate the energy savings from removing that flow restriction and slowing down the motor. Most likely you will have a full payback of less than 18 months on something like that. Makes the bean counters happy.


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## JRaef

MDShunk said:


> I've used TECO Plc's lately, and I have been impressed. I see their drives are also rebranded as Westinghouse.


Actually, Teco bought the Westinghouse motor factory in Round Rock Texas and now owns the Westinghouse brand name and logo, as applied to motors and drives (and TVs I think). Officially it is TWMI, Teco Westinghouse Motors Inc. The VFDs are actually made by a sub division of Teco in Taiwan called Taian (I once worked for Motortronics, we brand-labeled the Taian drives too). 

Boring useless info, I know. :whistling2:


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## Jlarson

I forgot about Teco and Westinghouse. I occasionally see some of it here. 




In other news, is it just me or do the TECO PLC's kinda look like Micrologix 1000's.


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## Mike in Canada

I had to deal with a Leeson drive the other day, and it ticked me off royally. The digital input has to be used with the on-board power supply. So what's the problem? It's 12V! Try buying a relay with a 12V coil at an electrical supply house! I had to drive all over the place to get one.
I tried using an external 24V power supply, because the manual said the input was good for up to 30V, but it wouldn't work with anything except that built-in 12V supply.


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## Wirenuting

farlsincharge said:


> Thanks guys. I was leaning towards AB already as they have a good reputation and I do have some limited experience with them.
> 
> The pool guys have oversized a pump for future expansion and right now they are throttling it with a valve, working the **** out of it and wasting money on energy.


Bad thing I found with drives in a pool pump room is corrosion. It's a killer on drives. 
If you can mount the drive outside the pump room it will last longer. 
Even if you put it outside in a 3R enclosure, it's better then the 3 year average fail rate we had going here for awhile.


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## JRaef

Wirenuting said:


> Bad thing I found with drives in a pool pump room is corrosion. It's a killer on drives.
> If you can mount the drive outside the pump room it will last longer.
> Even if you put it outside in a 3R enclosure, it's better then the 3 year average fail rate we had going here for awhile.


I think that's a great point. 

Zee chlorine she ees berry berry bad for electronicas.


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## erics37

I'm going to an ABB drive programming class on the 13th. It'll be awesome.


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## Wirenuting

JRaef said:


> I think that's a great point.
> 
> Zee chlorine she ees berry berry bad for electronicas.


There is another chemical we are using besides chlorine. I can't remember the name, I'm not the pool guy. 
But it also eats everything in the rooms. Just takes longer and it don't melt your eyes. 
Years ago we were fitted with scott air packs for the inevitable leaks in both the pool systems and the old ammonia chillers we had.


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## oliquir

i use mainly eaton or delta drives or abb, have used automation direct for small 1 hp motor and they have broken within one month (overheating problems), same application with lenze vector drive and still running after 3 years. i dont use also AB drive have seen a lot of troubles with them and cost $$$ to repair them.


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## John Valdes

MDShunk said:


> I've used TECO Plc's lately, and I have been impressed. I see their drives are also rebranded as Westinghouse.


Westinghouse is now TECO. I sold TECO controls and motors. In the beginning we always called them TECO-Westinghouse to make the customer feel better. 



JRaef said:


> Actually, Teco bought the Westinghouse motor factory in Round Rock Texas and now owns the Westinghouse brand name and logo, as applied to motors and drives (and TVs I think). Officially it is TWMI, Teco Westinghouse Motors Inc. The VFDs are actually made by a sub division of Teco in Taiwan called Taian (I once worked for Motortronics, we brand-labeled the Taian drives too).
> 
> 
> Boring useless info, I know. :whistling2:


Not boring at all. I worked in that environment.
I know the facility. Do you know Bill Downs, Dan Wolf, or Mike Cook? To me the insides of these controls look identical to the old Magnetek drives. And they programed the same way. Yaskawa built Magnetek. Do you know if Yaskawa brands for anyone else. I was under the impression they consolidated and they only brand Yaskawa now? No more umbrella.




erics37 said:


> I'm going to an ABB drive programming class on the 13th. It'll be awesome.


Are you going to Wisconsin? ABB provides a very rigorous class so be prepared to work not play!


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## kbsparky

Mike in Canada said:


> I had to deal with a Leeson drive the other day, and it ticked me off royally. The digital input has to be used with the on-board power supply. So what's the problem? It's 12V! Try buying a relay with a 12V coil at an electrical supply house! I had to drive all over the place to get one.
> I tried using an external 24V power supply, because the manual said the input was good for up to 30V, but it wouldn't work with anything except that built-in 12V supply.


12V AC or DC?


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## oliquir

i never seen vfd work with AC signal, generally for use of external supply (24v) you need to put com of the vfd and com of power supply together, then check for npn or pnp for inputs of the vfd


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## JRaef

John Valdes said:


> ... To me the insides of these controls look identical to the old Magnetek drives. And they programed the same way. Yaskawa built Magnetek. Do you know if Yaskawa brands for anyone else. I was under the impression they consolidated and they only brand Yaskawa now? ...


Taian was (is?) a contract mfr for Yaskawa. When Yaskawa dumped their old G5 drive line, Teco picked it up as their own and called it their 7200/7300MA line. This was that last drive Yaskawa was brand labeling to Saftronics, Magnetek, Electomotive, EMS, Omron, IDM etc. etc., so yes, it is the same "guts" but it's not really a brand label deal. Yaskawa no longer sells it.








Teco 7200MA







Yaskawa G5

Yaskawa did kill all of their "partner" relationships in the US and markets only on their own, but Omron still markets the Yaskawa drives overseas.

And no, I didn't know any of those names, but I was only involved from the brand-label aspect, we dealt with Taian in Taiwan directly and in fact, had to compete with Teco in this market.


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## John Valdes

JRaef said:


> Taian was (is?) a contract mfr for Yaskawa. When Yaskawa dumped their old G5 drive line, Teco picked it up as their own and called it their 7200/7300MA line. This was that last drive Yaskawa was brand labeling to Saftronics, Magnetek, Electomotive, EMS, Omron, IDM etc. etc., so yes, it is the same "guts" but it's not really a brand label deal. Yaskawa no longer sells it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teco 7200MA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yaskawa G5
> 
> Yaskawa did kill all of their "partner" relationships in the US and markets only on their own, but Omron still markets the Yaskawa drives overseas.
> 
> And no, I didn't know any of those names, but I was only involved from the brand-label aspect, we dealt with Taian in Taiwan directly and in fact, had to compete with Teco in this market.


Did you ever have the opportunity to use any TECO motors? We really liked them. Once a customer tried one they sometimes asked for TECO from then on. The price was so great and everything was cast iron construction.
While I like Baldor and have many friends in the organization, TECO was hard not to quote. Especailly when you have other Chinese/Taiwanese and Brazilian motors on the market.
Weg was another very good product and was a well designed and built motor.

Seems we have some stuff in common, except you are much smarter!


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## JRaef

John Valdes said:


> ... except you are much smarter!


Not according to my wife. She says I am a "fountain of useless information".

Like Baldor, Teco motors are, for the most part, US made (Round Rock Texas) so in spite of being Taiwanese owned I actually like them. Weg used to have a really bad reputation for failure in the field, but a really good reputation for taking care of it. But in spite of having a replacement 250HP motor at my dock the next day on several occasions, they couldn't make up for my crew time in the field to swap out carcasses, so I stopped using them years ago. My current company has a motor shop in another location and they are a Weg distributor, they love them. But I'm still once bitten twice shy on those guys too.

If you ever used large Teco Crusher Duty or older Reliance motors, they were both made by another Tiawanese company called Tatung. Great products and they have probably the best Crusher Duty motor available. They have a US sales office in Southern Calif.


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## 93flareside

I work 45 minutes from the Danfoss VFD US factory. Their service is top notch, good people and, from what I hear from the guys I work with, Danfoss drives are amazing.

You could look at Nord, I'm trying to work with one right now, never used one before.


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## Netree

Not being one to let an old thread go to waste...

I generally prefer Baldor drives, and have used the MD series extensively. The PID loop is spectacular.

Siemens is a good product, but expensive and over-complicated for most applications.

Ac-Tech and Lenze BOTH suck worse now than ever, but I do make good money replacing them when they fail.

Bardac has been a good drive, the few times I've worked with them.


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## 93flareside

Anyone know of a drive that will do 50hz continuous?

I need to get 230vac(single phase) 50hz to a condensing boiler. The controls on this thing are smart enough to throw a code for the cycle difference.


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## McClary’s Electrical

John Valdes said:


> Did you ever have the opportunity to use any TECO motors? We really liked them. Once a customer tried one they sometimes asked for TECO from then on. The price was so great and everything was cast iron construction.
> While I like Baldor and have many friends in the organization, TECO was hard not to quote. Especailly when you have other Chinese/Taiwanese and Brazilian motors on the market.
> Weg was another very good product and was a well designed and built motor.
> 
> Seems we have some stuff in common, except you are much smarter!


 



John, here's some magnetek's you're speaking of?


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## Motorwinder

:thumbsup:


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## erics37

John Valdes said:


> Are you going to Wisconsin? ABB provides a very rigorous class so be prepared to work not play!


No it was put on by a couple ABB reps at Platt Electric Supply in Corvallis.

They provided doughnuts and crammed a lot of crap into an 8 hour class. It was pretty good; I learned a lot.


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## Mr.C

If your looking for DC drives look at Avtron. They can upgrade old analog scr firing front ends to digital as well as MG sets.


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## acro

farlsincharge said:


> The pool guys have oversized a pump for future expansion and right now they are throttling it with a valve, working the **** out of it and wasting money on energy.




Maybe I am a little late, but closing a valve on the outlet side of a centrifugal pump will actually cause the load and therefore the amp draw to drop in most cases.

Now, positive displacement pumps are a whole other matter, but this is a swimming pool we are talking about.


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## bgleason

AB, Schneider (Telemecanique), or Yaskawa for the most part.


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## nolabama

JRaef said:


> Not a bad list, although my personal experience with the programming of the Sq.D / Telemecanique Altivar drives leaves me never wanting to experience that again. I'm sure they are fine drives and the feature list looks great on paper, but the translated French manual SUCKED!
> 
> Here's my list in order of favorites:
> 
> As far as ease of programming goes, I think the ABB wins hands down. Very intuitive, they guide you through everything important on the screen, but all the special tweaks are there for the hard core drive experts. Their PID loop setup and programming is the easiest I have ever seen on a VFD, and that's something you use a lot in pump applications.
> 
> A-B's drives have an advantage of being very well supported, there is a qualified A-B drives specialist in every nook and cranny of the US. The advantage there is that you can get very good training and support locally. Good quality, decent user friendliness on setup and programming too. But they can tend to be the high priced spread; if they think they own you, they'll make you pay top dollar. If you want to go that way, let the A-B guy know he has competition.
> 
> Vacon and Eaton are the same thing, but Vacon also took over the old TB Woods drive line, they are decent drives for newbies. I have been using Vacon drives recently, I like them but lots of people complain about the Cutler Hammer version not being well supported, one of the reasons Vacon started selling under their own name in the US.
> 
> Yaskawa are very good quality drives, nobody I know of complains about them. Their programming has become a little cumbersome however because they have been around so long now, their fans keep demanding more and more features and tweaks, so it gets a little daunting for a newcomer. But a good local resource can overcome that.
> 
> My current company uses a lot of Siemens drives, they have some nice features but you HAVE to use the programming software, because programming through their keypad is a PITA. The software is free though, as long as you have a notebook PC available. But for something simple like a pump, they are a little spendy compared to the rest of the market (A-B excepted).
> 
> Danfoss is big in the water/wastewater market, but it can be difficult to find a good rep/distributor in some smaller areas. I think their drives are nothing special, but nothing wrong with them either.
> 
> Mitsubishi; fine products, spendy in some areas. If I were going to spend that much, I'd buy A-B.
> 
> Emerson / Control Techniques: Good drives, same issue as Mitsubishi, plus the limited distribution issues that Danfoss has.
> 
> Teco also offers some good low cost drives, especially for simple applications like pumps. But once you want to start getting into more complex applications, you will have to go another route, which means learning something else later.
> 
> Ones to steer clear of in my opinion:
> 
> 
> [*]Toshiba: Once a mighty force in the VFD market, but same drives as Sq. D. now on the smaller versions, same factory etc., same issues.
> [*]AC Tech / Lenze; QC issues, although I hear they have improved since Lenze bought them, I haven't given them a 4th or 5th chance, been burned too many times there.
> [*]Hitachi; cheap but nothing special and more difficult to use than some others so not worth the hassle. If you are going to consider Hitachi, go with Teco instead.
> [*]Automation Direct / Delta; cheap drives, no support, you get what you pay for.
> [*]LS (LG) / Benshaw / Cerus all the same; brand labeled from LS (formerly LG) in Korea. Never liked them, when they first came to the US, LG lied about them being Vector Drives when they were not, I can't forgive them for that.
> [*]I've seen some QC issues with Baldor and Weg, but that was a few years ago, they probably fixed those. But again, I'm not prone to getting burned over and over, both of those two have done that to me.


Why does telemecaniqe not make the list? I have heard bad things about them, but of course never used them.


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## jblkiller

some user of Weg drive?
I need to replace my old weg drive CFW08 on a wire unwinder. Maybe I will try Control Technique M300. Do you have suggestion for a wire unwinder. I know that ABB ACS800 can flash firmware to a unwinder.


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## KennyW

ABB or yaskawa for me.

allen bradley a distant 3rd.

Edit: woops got sucked into posting in a zombie thread! 

Jblkiller start a new thread.


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## ibew415

Jlarson said:


> Manual? Oh the useless paper I throw into a pile on the bench :laughing:
> 
> 
> The Delta drives (ADC's, and Eaton's small drives) are pretty much like the bic pen of the drive market IMO. They have their place.


I did not think Altivar was that bad, BUT I went to a SquareD Class to get certified in them/


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## Rollie73

Somebody pleeeeeeeze kill this four your old thread.


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## Cow

I like AB and ABB myself.

(And I'm only posting since Rollie wanted to kill this thread):jester:


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## xpertpc

I bought a new Automation Direct 1/2 hp VFD on eBay for $60 to fix my energy star refrigerator that had a 1/3 hp 3 phase 240 volt compressor, the stock VFD was almost $300. Working 3 years now without incident.

For a centrifugal pool pump that doesn't need an infinity control a restrictor plate or gate valve on the pumps output would pretty much achieve the same thing. Amperage will drop as it is doing less work - ie. not pushing a higher volume weight of water. Acro said this in post #33 above 3 years ago.

I do this on my solar water heater collectors to tweak the GPM for the best delta T, I valve off the output with a gate valve as a ball valve is too touchy and inconsistent.

One thing to keep in mind with water pumps is to make sure you have enough supply water to not cause ventilation and or cavitation of your impellers or they may in fact be trimmed by attrition. Again this is only for centrifugal pumps as positive displacement pumps may blow its housing apart if the output is throttled too much.

If I wasn't footing the bill then I'd go with ABB, Siemens, or AB - If you like parameters then Siemens has at least 998 of them (the last time I programmed one anyways).


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## Rollie73

Cow said:


> I like AB and ABB myself.
> 
> (And I'm only posting since Rollie wanted to kill this thread):jester:


 
I love ABB drives.....in fact I sell them and I'm one of the only contractors within 200 kms of my area who is licensed by ABB for start-ups and repairs/programming of ABB drives.


(OH YEAH!!! Screw you too, Cow:jester


:laughing::laughing:


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