# Metal Studs & Boxes



## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

I hate metal studs, our boxes flop around on the wabbly studs.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I like boxes with brackets, but it's more a personal preference.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> If using metal studs what's the best box to use, just plain 4x4x1-1/2 or same with brackets?
> Or 2-1/8 deep, box only or with brackets?


Regular 1900 boxes. The bracket boxes are a huge premium. These are very cheap and are the only thing I use:

http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/...50|pkw||pmt|&gclid=CIPkz7KR-cwCFc9ahgodWDINWQ


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Regular 1900 boxes. The bracket boxes are a huge premium. These are very cheap and are the only thing I use: http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/pre-galvanized-steel-box-support-bracket-for-metal-studs-88091926?cm_mmc=pla:google-_-googleshopping-_-gb5073-_-88091926&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Graybar%3EPLA%3ECategory&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=%7Cpcrid%7C49843464650%7Cpkw%7C%7Cpmt%7C&gclid=CIPkz7KR-cwCFc9ahgodWDINWQ


That's what we use.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

elecpatsfan said:


> I hate metal studs, our boxes flop around on the wabbly studs.


Maybe you are doing it wrong


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

There are always scrap studs laying around. Cut some up and use them for support on the far side of the box, and it won't flop around when the drywall is up.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Regular 4" 1900 box with a Caddy H6 or H23.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If your box is wobbling, it's because you don't have far-side support. If you are cutting up studs for far-side support, you are throwing money away. Jrannis posted the correct answer with the Erico H4.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

If they are flopping that bad it's gotta be a residential grade steel stud, not like on the commercial jobs. I don't think I ever had an issue on a commercial job, the material was much better.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If you use a Caddy support, it will stop flopping once the sheetrock is up.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Regular 1900 boxes. The bracket boxes are a huge premium. These are very cheap and are the only thing I use:
> 
> http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/...50|pkw||pmt|&gclid=CIPkz7KR-cwCFc9ahgodWDINWQ


Dumb question, but how do these attach to the stud?
Self tapper/tek screw?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Dumb question, but how do these attach to the stud?
> Self tapper/tek screw?


Yup.

The same screw that attaches the stud to the track. Just steal them from the framers.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Jrzy said:


> Yup.
> 
> The same screw that attaches the stud to the track. Just steal them from the framers.


Looks like maybe a tab that bends too on the end of the mount side?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Looks like maybe a tab that bends too on the end of the mount side?


That is just a little offset to give the mudring space behind the drywall. You push that offset right up against the stud and screw it on.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Jrzy said:


> That is just a little offset to give the mudring space behind the drywall. You push that offset right up against the stud and screw it on.


:thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

There are a couple of issues here.

1) Far side support -- you really want this... with TIN studding.

2) FACE screwing versus side screwing. 

The speed difference is remarkable.

Side bracket boxes are only popular when steel boxes are being run into wood studs.

They have ONE advantage, you can perform all your rough before the mud rings go on. The CADDY brackets induce you to fiddle with the P-rings.

There's quite a speed pick-up when the j-box involves a 1-gang mud ring. 

( P-ring to some folks. )

&&&&&

Lastly, EMT run into steel j-boxes goes a long way towards stiffening any box.

https://www.erico.com/category.asp?category=R891









THIS ^^^ puppy does wonders to stiffen EMT risers within all stud bays. It is lightning fast.

%%%%%

All face screwed fasteners must lie flush enough to keep the rockers happy:

'Silver bullets' -- self-tapping 'pan head' 'button' screws -- are the standard out West.











Every electrical distributor stocks these like Chicklets.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Dumb question, but how do these attach to the stud?
> Self tapper/tek screw?


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## sburton224 (Feb 28, 2013)

We use these https://www.erico.com/category.asp?category=R593. They are a little more expensive than the H23 box bracket (elephant ears) but they work very well especially if more than one box needs to be mounted such as a data box beside each receptacle. Mount more above to support the conduit as it goes up no bends required.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Caddy H23, 1 1/2" deep 4x4 and mud ring just like 360 max posted is the way I've always done them.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

360max said:


> https://youtu.be/-N8bBhmDtE8


Yep, saw that after I went to Erico's site!


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> If they are flopping that bad it's gotta be a residential grade steel stud, not like on the commercial jobs. I don't think I ever had an issue on a commercial job, the material was much better.


Commercial jobs commonly use anything from 18ga to 25ga. There is no such thing as residential or commercial grade steel studs, the gauge varies with the application


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Rock knocker said:


> Commercial jobs commonly use anything from 18ga to 25ga. There is no such thing as residential or commercial grade steel studs, the gauge varies with the application


So when you can grab channel or studs and crush it with your hand it's 28ga -30ga ??


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Rock knocker said:


> Commercial jobs commonly use anything from 18ga to 25ga. There is no such thing as residential or commercial grade steel studs, the gauge varies with the application


.....Yeah, didn't think I needed to break out the actual specifications....But you nailed it, commercial has a common type and when used in residential they have a common type. Guess I made a big mistake in saying "residential grade", will you forgive me?:laughing:


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## Rock knocker (Mar 8, 2016)

Switched said:


> commercial has a common type and when used in residential they have a common type.


No.

You still don't get it.

25ga is commonly used in commercial partition walls.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Hahahaha......:thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Out my way, your orders for shallow boxes are automatically transformed into full depth boxes -- by top management.

After thousands of jobs under the belt, shallow boxes are deemed LOSERS.

Just no where near enough economies of purchase to make up for the dis-economy of installation -- ALL factors considered.

I don't know of a SINGLE top ranked EC in my town using the shallow boxes.

The word is out. None of them will touch them.

1) LOTS of (a,b) switching in California.

2) Lots of GFCI receptacles...

And with apprentices - they screw up and install a shallow box.

SO embarrassing.

3) Our local distributors have gotten to the point that they don't stock shallow boxes in depth. If you want to order large -- on short notice -- then the stuff will be deep.

If you can wait three to fourteen-days -- anything is possible.

For you East Coast guys, MANY items are only stocked -- seriously -- in Memphis and points east.

Yeap.

That changes our Western calculus.

( Reno and North Las Vegas are mere pit stops. )

{ For non-Californians, Sacramento has a UNIQUE and awesome inventory tax that makes it impossible for anyone to have serious inventories within the state. So Northern California gets its stash from Reno-Sparks (twin cities) Los Angeles gets its stash from North Las Vegas. (Its only reason for being. It's a warehouse town. You would NOT believe the streets in that burg ! }

{ The warehouses in both of these burgs would blow your mind. }

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh yes, and most important, use 5/8" rings for 1/2" drywall and 3/4" rings for 5/8" drywall. The rings seem to be measured overall. It's a pet peeve of mine.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> I hate metal studs, our boxes flop around on the wabbly studs.


We screwed the 1900 boxes to the studs with sheet metal screws and once the conduits were brought in and the set screws tightened, the box would be firmly in place.
In most instances the box got conduit or conduits stubbed up from the slab. Once the connectors are tightened, they are really strong. I will admit many boxes got no more support. Just the two conduits coming up from the slab.
Best part is push the box in, out, tilt side to side get it flush, then tighten the connector set screws. Box stays put.
This may not be legal, but we did it all the time.

I don't think those supports John linked us too were available back then and I highly doubt the company would have bought them.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Jrzy said:


> Yup.
> 
> The same screw that attaches the stud to the track. Just steal them from the framers.




I prefer the ones that aren't self drilling, they bite better I think 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Forget that shallow crap exists.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Biscuits said:


> I prefer the ones that aren't self drilling, they bite better I think
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As the son of a carpenter, we always used pointed tec and drywall screws on the thinner studs that we used in resi. But for the heavier gauge studs typically used in commercial, we had to switch to self drilling tec and drywall screws. 

So I guess I would agree with you on the pointed screws depending on the studs in use.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Biscuits said:


> I prefer the ones that aren't self drilling, they bite better I think
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is true. The self drilling screws suck in metal studs. The straight point framing screws bite really well.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

InPhase277 said:


> This is true. The self drilling screws suck in metal studs. The straight point framing screws bite really well.


The gauge of the steel totally decides the issue.

Thin stuff -- spear point is fine... especially so if the screws are being face driven.

Beyond that -- stay with self-tappers.

Out here, self-tappers must be 98% of the market. 

The really thin stock 'tin' is simply not used in commercial. 

(Earthquake country causes everything in California to be over-engineered. )

%%%%%

The nicest thing about 'elephant ears' is that you can run EMT -- horizontally -- left and right -- with no further ado. ( Okay, you have to tin punch the stud. )

This routing will require deep boxes, as the shallow ones have the geometry all wrong.

That's two more quarter turns you don't have to bend.


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

We have some issue using those brackets especially with our construction crew adding stud walls over old masonry so the depth isn't standard enough for them to work, we've made do so far but does anyone know of a bracket that goes stud to stud etc?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Anathera said:


> We have some issue using those brackets especially with our construction crew adding stud walls over old masonry so the depth isn't standard enough for them to work, we've made do so far but does anyone know of a bracket that goes stud to stud etc?


Yes, we always called these a triple-bracket. https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=RBS16


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> This is true. The self drilling screws suck in metal studs. The straight point framing screws bite really well.


Wow! Just to show you different usage in regions. Here self tappers are the call. It's a "Fealy" thing but a mandatory one. I work in Southern Ca, so maybe the gauge of steel is thicker?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

zac said:


> Wow! Just to show you different usage in regions. Here self tappers are the call. It's a "Fealy" thing but a mandatory one. I work in Southern Ca, so maybe the gauge of steel is thicker?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Very much so, probably EQ codes. In NJ I have seen them use some so thin they look like the weight of the rock would destroy them.


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## Stickshaker (Jun 29, 2012)

It's been a lot of years, but we used to use bracket boxes along with a simple bracket that hooked into the back hole of the 4 square and screwed to the stud. Very secure. And as an aside, ALWAYS use a deep 4 square if you have the space.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Jrzy said:


> Yes, we always called these a triple-bracket. https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=RBS16


Here abouts those are known as "manifolds' -- as in manifold gaskets.

If you've ever worked on an engine rebuild -- the resemblance is in your face.

Yes, yes...

They are WAY popular -- as they permit one to distance off of a stud.

Getting too close to an interior corner stinks.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

360max said:


> https://youtu.be/-N8bBhmDtE8


That looks like a good job but a total pain in the ass.


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## BaumannMN (Mar 22, 2016)

http://www.amazon.com/Caddy-Fasteners-TSGB16-16-Bracket/dp/B003C1RKKC

We used these if the box needs to be in a specific location not on the stud.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> That looks like a good job but a total pain in the ass.


Not at all. You have a help sit on a bucket and assemble 100 boxes including bond screws. Then just screw them to the studs.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Not at all. You have a help sit on a bucket and assemble 100 boxes including bond screws. Then just screw them to the studs.


Exactly, that is why real companies could never use these. You big company guys have no clue as to real life situations.


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## BaumannMN (Mar 22, 2016)

sbrn33 said:


> Exactly, that is why real companies could never use these. You big company guys have no clue as to real life situations.


Shots fired.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> Exactly, that is why real companies could never use these. You big company guys have no clue as to real life situations.


Oh snap! No you dit'n!


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

I've got very little help and yet we use both, of course we don't do huge projects here but it doesn't take long to screw the brackets in where you want them and then pop the boxes on as the wire gets pulled. It might take a bit longer but not too much


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Exactly, that is why real companies could never use these. You big company guys have no clue as to real life situations.


That's not true.

The brackets are easy as hell, any size company should use them.

I don't pre-fab them, I just screw the bracket on the stud, then push the 1900 box thru it from behind, and put the mud ring on it from the front, then tighten the screws. It takes seconds and works well.


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## Electrozappo (Apr 8, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Exactly, that is why real companies could never use these. You big company guys have no clue as to real life situations.




All companies use all methods of installing j boxes even the cheesy nail in crap. 
At any given moment the owner or owners rep changes their mind and you've got to adapt and overcome to still stay on schedule. 
Maybe you've never been on a big job with real electrical systems?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

free samples? but please don't take 3 1/2 years to reply this time


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I need two boxes and can you beat Home Depot’s price of 1.29 with free shipping please?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you are supporting boxes with the slide bars that go behind the boxes , both boxes when side by side need to be the same depth. For me it's a matter of course to always just buy the deeper 4" square boxes with combo 1/2 and 3/4" ko's for power and deep 4 squares with 1" ko's for those times when I have to provide raceway stubs for lazy ass scissor packers. I can never remember the stupid catalog number for the sliding bars. They are handy. My old time proven method was using 1x3" lumber stretched between the two studs for backing in the old days before somebody determined little bitty pieces of wood were likely to self combust and burn down the buildings all by themselves....


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