# 1899 panel and wiring



## Demac

House built in 1899. It's now part of the Historic Ft Worth something-or-other. The house is currently still operating off this system. It's a 120v system. This panel is fed with a single pole 50a breaker. We're intercepting all the branch circuits and rerouting them to a panel on the 3rd floor, outside of the tour path. One of the existing knife switches will be used to control a contactor which will turn the new panel off and on. This was by request so that the tour guide could demonstrate to the people on the tour that the old system still works. Overcurrent protection is the small strips of silver solder. 

I grabbed a few pictures with my phone since I thought it was pretty neat. I've never seen anything like it, and it might be a long time until I do again. A few pictures of the front, one of the back, which we accessed by pulling off part of the wall of a closet, and a pic of some stuff I discovered under the floor boards when trying to track down all the branch circuits.









http://www.historicfortworth.org/WeddingsTours/BallEddlemanMcFarlandHouse/tabid/376/Default.aspx


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## Meadow

Consider yourself extremely luck, I have never seen anything that old in person. Most of what Ive seen thats 50 or more years old has been trashed by hackery. 

The soldier strips are a first for me.

What ever you do try keeping the original panel as is because for its age its very well kept.


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## 480sparky

I take it the pix with the busted-out plaster wall is the backside to this extremely lovely work of art?


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## Kev'71

Awesome, I thoroughly enjoy working on projects like that.


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## socalelect

Better not slip off the handle of those discos

Way cool defiantly has a craftsmanship touch to it. Everything I have seen from back in the day is hacketastic. The oldest thing I have to deal with in the near future is getting rid of the cloth nm in the grandparents house. The house was built in 42. Still has knobs on the rafters. Even the power pole in the yard has been there since the fortes


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## Demac

meadow said:


> What ever you do try keeping the original panel as is because for its age its very well kept.


Yea, the panel will be kept as it is from the front. Those pictures don't really do it justice, it has beautiful hardwood around it, a mirror in the door, and everything is polished up. That is one of the key things though, was to leave it looking as original as possible. 



480sparky said:


> I take it the pix with the busted-out plaster wall is the backside to this extremely lovely work of art?


Yes sir, it is. It's one of the walls of a closet on the backside of that wall with the panel in it. We're probably going to have to put a accessible cover of some kind there now, since we're probably going to put the joints in that box, unless we can find them all up above in the ceiling. The problem with that, as I tried to show a bit with the last picture, is that they come up under the floor in the middle of the room, not along a wall. The floor I pulled up showed some of that. That third floor is the old servants quarters and not part of the house tour, so I'm not sure yet what options we have there as far as the Historic Society rules.


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## RePhase277

I would like to know just how the hell a panel goes un-hacked for 113 years? I can hardly get my tools to the truck before someone rips into newly installed panels. How did this one survive?


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## drsparky

The knife switches like those are the original reason the NEC requires that disconnects open down to so gravity doesn't accidentally close a circuit. Too bad the NEC is mired in tradition, I like the Canadian option of mounting panels sideways.


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## BBQ

drsparky said:


> The knife switches like those are the original reason the NEC requires that disconnects open down to so gravity doesn't accidentally close a circuit. Too bad the NEC is mired in tradition, I like the Canadian option of mounting panels sideways.


You can mount a panel sideways, you just can't make down be ON and to me that is a good rule not for gravity but for clerity. I know gravity was the original reason.


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## drsparky

BBQ said:


> You can mount a panel sideways, you just can't make down be ON and to me that is a good rule not for gravity but for clerity. I know gravity was the original reason.


Clarity Shmarity, it is a relic of a bygone age.


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## BBQ

drsparky said:


> Clarity Shmarity, it is a relic of a bygone age.


Sorry I disagreeity :laughing:


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## Podagrower

So, where do the neutrals go? I was thinking at first that one side was hot and the other neutral, since 32 circuits would have been a lot in 1899, but from the backside picture it appears the separation is all wrong for that.


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## Demac

Podagrower said:


> So, where do the neutrals go? I was thinking at first that one side was hot and the other neutral, since 32 circuits would have been a lot in 1899, but from the backside picture it appears the separation is all wrong for that.


No, you're right. I threw some labels on these pics so it's easier to see. Maybe not the best color choices.  

What was getting me for awhile until I opened up the back and got to looking at it was the fact that there is protection on both the hot and neutral side. So 16 circuits, as you were thinking.

One switch controls termination bars #1 and #3, and the other controls #2 and #4.


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## oldtimer

Demac said:


> No, you're right. I threw some labels on these pics so it's easier to see. Maybe not the best color choices.
> 
> What was getting me for awhile until I opened up the back and got to looking at it was the fact that there is protection on both the hot and neutral side. So 16 circuits, as you were thinking.
> 
> One switch controls termination bars #1 and #3, and the other controls #2 and #4.


 This is a museum piece.


Just a question ... ... Is there a museum of electrical equipment?

If so, Where?

I love seeing this stuff, the ingenuity was outstanding!


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## kaboler

Can someone confirm to me why on a un-split-phased single phase system, they also protected the N same as the hot?


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## 480sparky

kaboler said:


> Can someone confirm to me why on a un-split-phased single phase system, they also protected the N same as the hot?



There was no requirement not to.


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## oldtimer

480sparky said:


> There was no requirement not to.


 I guess the neutral was not grounded in that system.

There was not the same emphasis on grounding at that time!

Maybe they did not know then, what we know now.



Not being facetious!


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## 480sparky

oldtimer said:


> I guess the neutral was not grounded in that system.
> 
> There was not the same emphasis on grounding at that time!
> 
> Maybe they did not know then, what we know now.
> 
> 
> 
> Not being facetious!



It was grounded, it was just called the 'identified' conductor at the time. There was no NEC rule about NOT protecting it, so it could legally be done.

Remember, the NEC is a permissive document. If it doesn't state you _can't _do it, that means you _can_.


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## kaboler

but i've seen older single phase (not split) having the identified conductor fused, and it didn't make much sense to me until I realized the identified conductor is bonded to ground at the transformer a kilometer away.

I still don't see the logic, unless at the time, back in the day, the power company would do work and sometimes put the hot on the neutral and back and forth whimsically.

Don't know why really. Just trying to think of a reason for it.


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## guest

kaboler said:


> but i've seen older single phase (not split) having the identified conductor fused, and it didn't make much sense to me until I realized the identified conductor is bonded to ground at the transformer a kilometer away.
> 
> I still don't see the logic, _*unless at the time, back in the day, the power company would do work and sometimes put the hot on the neutral and back and forth whimsically.*_
> 
> Don't know why really. Just trying to think of a reason for it.


Dude, WTF are you smoking and why aren't you sharing it with us? :laughing:

The power company has historically NEVER been able to "put the hot on the neutral and back and forth whimsically." To do so would cause a phenomenon known as a short circuit. 

Now as to what the sparkys of the era would do downstream of the POCO connection or meter....and BTW it would have only been possible on the old 120 volt only services. 

IIRC, and some of our POCO guys could correct me on this, the neutral of a system has ALWAYS been grounded. If so, trying to swap hot and neutral on a POCO connection would cause a major current flow (dependent on the grounding electrode/rod/etc.'s resistance) through the GEC and grounding system. 

And someone here or maybe on MH forum posted a link to a video of a building which caught fire because the POCO screwed up and connected the building neutral to a phase and a building phase to the neutral.


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## Wirenuting

Demac said:


> House built in 1899. It's now part of the Historic Ft Worth something-or-other. The house is currently still operating off this system. It's a 120v system. This panel is fed with a single pole 50a breaker. We're intercepting all the branch circuits and rerouting them to a panel on the 3rd floor, outside of the tour path. One of the existing knife switches will be used to control a contactor which will turn the new panel off and on. This was by request so that the tour guide could demonstrate to the people on the tour that the old system still works. Overcurrent protection is the small strips of silver solder.
> 
> I grabbed a few pictures with my phone since I thought it was pretty neat. I've never seen anything like it, and it might be a long time until I do again. A few pictures of the front, one of the back, which we accessed by pulling off part of the wall of a closet, and a pic of some stuff I discovered under the floor boards when trying to track down all the branch circuits.
> 
> http://www.historicfortworth.org/WeddingsTours/BallEddlemanMcFarlandHouse/tabid/376/Default.aspx


Man thanks for posting these pictures. 
It's kinda like **** for electricians. So sweet and sexy to look at... Makes a man smile big when he sees it. 
.
.
.
hmm ,, I gotta go chase my wife now. Have a great evening everyone.


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## engineeriam

That is a very good condition. Looks as if it should be in a museum.


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## wick19

Should've walked in with a sawzall and say you need to trace out some more wires. See what they would've said.


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## Big John

That's an amazing looking house, and a fantastic looking panel. I would think even people who aren't electricians could appreciate that: I'd take out the mirror and drop in a pane of glass to put it on display.

Great photos.

-John


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## BuzzKill

So I am guessing, those little thin wires reaching over to the bus bars on the left and right are the "fuses"? If not, is this system fused in anyway?


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## wwilson174

kaboler said:


> Can someone confirm to me why on a un-split-phased single phase system, they also protected the N same as the hot?


 
They had a very good reason to protect the neutral on those two wire services , it was to protect against the inadvertent transposition of the two wires at the pole end of the service drop by the lineman which would leave the hot wire unprotected. BillW.


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## kaboler

mxslick said:


> Dude, WTF are you smoking and why aren't you sharing it with us? :laughing:
> 
> The power company has historically NEVER been able to "put the hot on the neutral and back and forth whimsically." To do so would cause a phenomenon known as a short circuit.
> 
> Now as to what the sparkys of the era would do downstream of the POCO connection or meter....and BTW it would have only been possible on the old 120 volt only services.
> 
> IIRC, and some of our POCO guys could correct me on this, the neutral of a system has ALWAYS been grounded. If so, trying to swap hot and neutral on a POCO connection would cause a major current flow (dependent on the grounding electrode/rod/etc.'s resistance) through the GEC and grounding system.
> 
> And someone here or maybe on MH forum posted a link to a video of a building which caught fire because the POCO screwed up and connected the building neutral to a phase and a building phase to the neutral.


You see? 2 different answers.

You guys fight it out and come to a consensus please.


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## kaboler

wwilson174 said:


> They had a very good reason to protect the neutral on those two wire services , it was to protect against the inadvertent transposition of the two wires at the pole end of the service drop by the lineman which would leave the hot wire unprotected. BillW.


I prefer this one because it agrees with my crazy thoughts.


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## guest

wwilson174 said:


> They had a very good reason to protect the neutral on those two wire services , it was to protect against the inadvertent transposition of the two wires at the pole end of the service drop by the lineman which would leave the hot wire unprotected. BillW.


One flaw with that Bill.....if the neutral is grounded (and again I am pretty sure that the neutral has traditionally ALWAYS been grounded) a misconnection would result in a short circuit. 

After some thought, could the fused neutral be a carry-over from the DC days when neither side was grounded and it was thought that you had to interrupt BOTH sides of a DC circuit?


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## Going_Commando

You guys are assuming there was always a neutral. Around here, they didn't start doing any real grounding until the 40s, so anything before that, you just had 2 conductors. They didn't have Wye here for quite some time, and there were some real funky transformer connections going on. The town I grew up in had a huge mish-mash of different voltages and the like, from 120v 3-phase to 600v 3-phase. You could get whatever you wanted, essentially. The transformers around here used to just tap off 2 of the line conductors at the street, and you got 120v on the secondary of the transformer, so there was no "neutral". The 2 service conductors came in to a knife switch which disconnected both conductors. Switching was done by just picking one of the legs. There was no "identified" conductor. To have a neutral, you need to have a a difference in potential between 2 or more ungrounded conductors, and a reference point such as a center tap off a transformer coil. On a 120v circuit, on a 120/240v single phase system, there is no neutral conductor, only a grounded, ungrounded, and grounding conductor. If you run a 240v circuit, to a sub panel, range, multi-wire branch circuit, or what have you, then there is a neutral present.


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## gold

oldtimer said:


> This is a museum piece.
> 
> 
> Just a question ... ... *Is there a museum of electrical equipment?*
> 
> If so, Where?
> 
> I love seeing this stuff, the ingenuity was outstanding!


Is there a museum of Electrical Equipment?


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## wwilson174

mxslick said:


> One flaw with that Bill.....if the neutral is grounded (and again I am pretty sure that the neutral has traditionally ALWAYS been grounded) a misconnection would result in a short circuit.
> 
> After some thought, could the fused neutral be a carry-over from the DC days when neither side was grounded and it was thought that you had to interrupt BOTH sides of a DC circuit?


No flaw at all sir, the neutral is grounded by a connection from the transformer to a ground at the pole. Not at the house! The line man chooses which of the two wires from the house to the pole is the hot and which is the neutral. If he chooses wrongly and only one of the wires is fused the service is unprotected. BillW


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## guest

Going_Commando said:


> You guys are assuming there was always a neutral. Around here, they didn't start doing any real grounding until the 40s, so anything before that, you just had 2 conductors. They didn't have Wye here for quite some time, and there were some real funky transformer connections going on. The town I grew up in had a huge mish-mash of different voltages and the like, from 120v 3-phase to 600v 3-phase. You could get whatever you wanted, essentially. The transformers around here used to just tap off 2 of the line conductors at the street, and you got 120v on the secondary of the transformer, so there was no "neutral". The 2 service conductors came in to a knife switch which disconnected both conductors. Switching was done by just picking one of the legs. There was no "identified" conductor. To have a neutral, you need to have a a difference in potential between 2 or more ungrounded conductors, and a reference point such as a center tap off a transformer coil. On a 120v circuit, on a 120/240v single phase system, *there is no neutral conductor*, only *a grounded*, ungrounded, and grounding conductor. If you run a 240v circuit, to a sub panel, range, multi-wire branch circuit, or what have you, then there is a neutral present.


So how do you define a neutral? Current Code has the neutral as the *grounded* conductor. (In regards to 120v, 120/240v, 120/208y, etc.) (Not withstanding corner grounded delta where there is indeed no neutral..but we are not talking about that system.) Not all 240 volt circuits/appliances have or need a neutral. 

Now as for the past, like you said it was a mish-mash so who knows? THAT is the determining factor to this discussion. 



wwilson174 said:


> No flaw at all sir, the* neutral is grounded by a connection from the transformer to a ground at the pole*._* Not at the house!*_ The line man chooses which of the two wires from the house to the pole is the hot and which is the neutral. If he chooses wrongly and only one of the wires is fused the service is unprotected. BillW


Ummm, again I can't speak for the past but current systems have the neutral *grounded at the house* too..so you'll still get a short circuit. Don't believe me? Go ahead and try it on your own service and report what happens..after you get back from the burn ward. 

And like I posted before, there is a video of the consequences of a building where the POCO connected a building phase to the neutral and the building neutral to a phase which started a serious fire. 

480 has the full collection of Code books going all the way back to at least 1901, perhaps he can look this up and see when a grounded neutral conductor came into being.

So as far as a modern service is concerned, I am correct. The old days, who knows but I am willing to bet that the neutral has been grounded ever since AC came into common use.


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## kaboler

mxslick said:


> So as far as a modern service is concerned, I am correct. The old days, who knows but I am willing to bet that the neutral has been grounded ever since AC came into common use.


Nope. I'm 100% certain that ground was once a different system than a neutral, regardless of how common it is today.

If you had grounded receptacles back in the 20s, it was indeed grounded.


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## 480sparky

Back in those days, it wasn't called the grounded or neutral. It was called the Identified conductor.

My 1911 suggests a service be grounded to the Neutral point.



Oh, and I now have this:


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## kaboler

We still call it an identified conductor in canada.

Is the neutral grounded, or bonded, to the service point?

How does someone maintain a leaflet like that for 100+ years in such a good condition? Anything in that booklet make us look like fools?


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## 480sparky

kaboler said:


> ......How does someone maintain a leaflet like that for 100+ years in such a good condition?.........


I never used it. :laughing:




kaboler said:


> ....... Anything in that booklet make us look like fools?


Mostly, the arcane language. You think _today's_ books are impossible to interpret!


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## kaboler

Pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf


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## 480sparky

kaboler said:


> Pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf pdf



Of what?


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## wwilson174

mxslick said:


> So how do you define a neutral? Current Code has the neutral as the *grounded* conductor. (In regards to 120v, 120/240v, 120/208y, etc.) (Not withstanding corner grounded delta where there is indeed no neutral..but we are not talking about that system.) Not all 240 volt circuits/appliances have or need a neutral.
> 
> Now as for the past, like you said it was a mish-mash so who knows? THAT is the determining factor to this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, again I can't speak for the past but current systems have the neutral *grounded at the house* too..so you'll still get a short circuit. Don't believe me? Go ahead and try it on your own service and report what happens..after you get back from the burn ward.
> 
> And like I posted before, there is a video of the consequences of a building where the POCO connected a building phase to the neutral and the building neutral to a phase which started a serious fire.
> 
> 480 has the full collection of Code books going all the way back to at least 1901, perhaps he can look this up and see when a grounded neutral conductor came into being.
> 
> So as far as a modern service is concerned, I am correct. The old days, who knows but I am willing to bet that the neutral has been grounded ever since AC came into common use.


 
Try to understand; WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE OLD DAYS when there were two wire service drops, and the neutrals WERE NOT grounded at the house, The neutrals were ALWAYS grounded , but not at the house. Believe me, because I was there! BillW ( don't bet, you will lose)


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## 480sparky

wwilson174 said:


> .......Believe me, because I was there! BillW ( don't bet, you will lose)



You were 'there' in 1899? :blink:

Lemme do the math.... ought plus ought is ought........


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## wwilson174

480sparky said:


> You were 'there' in 1899? :blink:
> 
> Lemme do the math.... ought plus ought is ought........


 
Oscar Wilde said that " sarcasm is the lowest form of wit " but he was being sarcastic when he said it. BillW


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## fdew

There is some code history here
http://antiquesockets.com/nec.html

They make reference to a lot of PDF copies of old documents.

This is the earliest one and it is interesting because it has a lot of opinions on grounding. One opinion is that the transformer feeding your house should be center taped and the center be grounded. This way there is only half of line voltage to ground anywhere you might get a shock. 

The main reason given for grounding was protection against high voltages from a pole transformer primary to secondary short.

http://antiquesockets.com/NEC-LIB/UnderwritersRules-April-17-1895-VOL-XII.pdf

This 1904 code requires all wires to be fused. 
It has a discussion about the pro and con of grounding on Page 53 and says 
Inspection departments having jurisdiction may require grounding


and in the Appendix starting on page 123 is a section on ground detectors (A light bulb from each wire to ground) (Two per circuit) to show if there is a ground so you can find it and get rid of it.

http://antiquesockets.com/NEC-LIB/1904-NEC.pdf

Here is some 1918 info on grounding
http://antiquesockets.com/NEC-LIB/NEC-1918.pdf


I have two books written in 1919 and 1920 on house wiring and neither mentions grounding or a neutral or a return. The directions for a switch do not say which of the two conductors to wire it into, just pick one.

I have a permanent light plant (Generator) made by Kohler in 1947 It has two outputs, L1 and L2 neither are labeled ground L2 is connected to the negative battery terminal but neither side of the starting battery is grounded. (More info here.)

http://www.oldengine.org/members/frank/kohler1.htm

It appears that there was a period of time when neutral, Ground, fuseing, and other things were changing fast and some were not paying attention to the code. 

Frank


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## fdew

If one code is good, 3 are better.
http://antiquesockets.com/NEC-LIB/Electric_Lighting_Specifications_1892_First_Edition.pdf

One of them says that concealed wiring should be avoided if possible.

Frank


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## mart6992

I am really into the antique electrical stuff we run across every now and then, especially if it's in great working order. Now, this is awesome.


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## electric mike

At first I was surprised at the amount of branch circuits. The oldest stuff I find around my area is fusebox knob and tube and it's rare to see more than 4-6 circuits. Then I glanced back at the pic of the house, WOW! They sure don't build 'em like that anymore. Very cool pix, thanks for sharing.


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## nolabama

oldtimer said:


> This is a museum piece.
> 
> Just a question ... ... Is there a museum of electrical equipment?
> 
> If so, Where?
> 
> I love seeing this stuff, the ingenuity was outstanding!


Edison's lab in greenfield village


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## Ampere

Wow, that's amazing looking!

Thanks for sharing~!


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