# Grinder sewage pump/well



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Every connection including colors is right there on the bottom of the drawing. RTFM.

The floats are labeled exactly what they do and the order they go in.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

paulengr said:


> Every connection including colors is right there on the bottom of the drawing. RTFM.
> 
> The floats are labeled exactly what they do and the order they go in.


And the award to least helpful goes too…

all kidding aside , it looks like I have two sets of prints

possibly one set is for 240 and the other 480 3 phase

multi tap motors ?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Please don't take offense, but do you have much experience with reading prints?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Why did you connect those 2 black wires to terminal 1 of 3?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

You need to get an understanding of what's going on before you just terminate.

Are there more cable to bring into the enclosure? I see empty raceways.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> Please don't take offense, but do you have much experience with reading prints?


Tough crowd here

yes I do. I’m just trying to understand the system


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Two circuits
120 volt alarm and control circuit 
240 volt pump circuit

what else do you want to know?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> Tough crowd here
> 
> yes I do. I’m just trying to understand the system


It looks to me that you have one pump to hook up and (3) floats, start,stop,alarm.

The floats would make sense to me for the start to go on first, then the stop, then the alarm. Those heights need to be set (as you mentioned). If you don't know where they should be set, ask the installer. They may already be set. 

No matter what, do not splice those cables in that well (or at all, they should come out of the well and go into that enclosure w/out splices).


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

By the tape colors it looks like 480 3 ph but you only have two fuses. That third fuse is control power.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> You need to get an understanding of what's going on before you just terminate.
> 
> Are there more cable to bring into the enclosure? I see empty raceways.


We install as per prints. As far as we are required to do.

1- 1 1/4” and 4- 1”


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> We install as per prints. As far as we are required to do.
> 
> 1- 1 1/4” and 4- 1”


All going directly to the well?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

mpcxl said:


> Anyone hook one of these up before ?
> 
> I was able to find where motor power and control power get hooked to, #8 black red white green
> 
> ...


Motors typically come with the power leads and especially submersibles have controls. For instance submersibles may have a thermal switch that you use instead of an overload relay and/or moisture sensors in case the seal for the wiring fails. They can also have temperature sensors. If you don’t have/need any of this stuff you just wire nut it and ignore it.

The floats should be set up in order. So set the “stop” a little above the point where the pump loses prime, usually where you just see the top of the pump. Start is how high it gets before pumping down, usually midway full or so. Alarm is how high you can stand it before letting you know something is wrong. Some systems also have a lower alarm telling you it is running dry. The trick with sewage pumps is hanging the floats where they don’t get a bunch of junk built up on them that holds the float so it never triggers.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

You do have two sets of prints. One is for single phase and one for 3 phase. Maybe I am missing something, but it does seem pretty clear to me where everything goes...

I am not sure why all your float switches all all in one conduit however... that is going to be a bitch when you want to change them out.

Cheers
John


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> All going directly to the well?


All 1” go to electric room

1 1/4” stub 90 into well.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

That print should be good enough to wire the system if you know where the wires go in the field. 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Looks like that panel has the seal fail and overtemp options so you'll have terminals to land the wires from the second cable on the pumps, the manual and/or tag from the pumps will tell you whats the seal probe and which ones are the thermal switch.

Setting the floats you try and keep the pumps underwater all the time for cooling, prevent short cycling and try and find a good alarm point that you have some time before you overflow, and you need to take into account any point in the system that may be at a lower elevation. A manhole up stream of the station may overflow before the station will.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

mpcxl said:


> All 1” go to electric room
> 
> 1 1/4” stub 90 into well.


How are you going to seal the pipe to avoid gasses from the wet well corroding everything?


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

How come each float switch has two sensors ?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Okay, if I'm wrong, sorry. 

Take those white and black wires from the floats off of 4 and 5 and put them where they belong over on the left of the box where the inputs are labeled stop lead alarm and something I can't make out. You need to know which float is which (wires). 

The motor wires go to 1,2,3 on that center terminal and the 2nd motor would go to 8,9,10. 

The 1,2,3 terminal up top left should be the feed in to the controller.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Jlarson said:


> How are you going to seal the pipe to avoid gasses from the wet well corroding everything?


We were given sealant to pour in after install.

there is access fitting above grade. Or whatever you wanna call it. Explosion proof ?


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

mpcxl said:


> All 1” go to electric room
> 
> 1 1/4” stub 90 into well.


I thought it would have been the other way, 1-1/4" to the electric room and 1" to the well. The four smaller 1" (motor, stop, start, alarm)... and three #10s or #8s in the 1-1/4 from the electrical room.

Cheers
John


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> How come each float switch has two sensors ?


What do you mean two sensors?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Does it look like this?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Navyguy said:


> I thought it would have been the other way, 1-1/4" to the electric room and 1" to the well. The four smaller 1" (motor, stop, start, alarm)... and three #10s or #8s in the 1-1/4 from the electrical room.
> 
> Cheers
> John


The ones I've seen (only a few) would have a 2" PVC from the well to under the control panel as a chase for the cables. Cables leave the well through the PVC and when they exit the PVC they are in free air into proper cord grips. Bottom of enclosure is kept high enough to be above a possible classified area.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

mpcxl said:


> How come each float switch has two sensors ?


each float switch has two sensors?

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> I thought it would have been the other way, 1-1/4" to the electric room and 1" to the well. The four smaller 1" (motor, stop, start, alarm)... and three #10s or #8s in the 1-1/4 from the electrical room.
> 
> Cheers
> John


You may be right. I’m going to have an issue if I need all floats switches and all motor cables in controller


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Jlarson said:


> Does it look like this?


Exactly like this


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

oldsparky52 said:


> The ones I've seen (only a few) would have a 2" PVC from the well to under the control panel as a chase for the cables. Cables leave the well through the PVC and when they exit the PVC they are in free air into proper cord grips. Bottom of enclosure is kept high enough to be above a possible classified area.


Agreed. Here is one that I did not too long ago where the controller was remote from the tanks. Only two floats and one motor.









Connections were outside the area.

Cheers
John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Top thing is a cord weight so you can just hang the floats off a float bracket instead of doing a float tree.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Each float might be "3-wire" NC/NO/COM and the second "can" is the setting weight, it is not a sensor.

Cheers
John


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> You may be right. I’m going to have an issue if I need all floats switches and all motor cables in controller


You have an issue, sorry.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Pull the two wires you have landed on term one. That terminal strip is for your 3 phase incoming power. You have them wire nutted now.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> You have an issue, sorry.


Thank you


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

mpcxl said:


> How come each float switch has two sensors ?


It's one sensor. Most floats have a normally open and normally closed switch with a common. Two ways to figure this out. First is to read the manual for the floats. Second is just stick your meter on the 3 wires. If you have it say hanging down with your meter on ohms/continuity two of them should be shorted together and the third wire is unused. Now flip the float upside down. The third wire and one of the other two will now make contact and the other one is open. So what you now know is that the wire that is "shared" is the common. The other two are the "low" and "high" or "normally open/normally closed" outputs. On a 4 wire float it works similar except there is no common.

From your perspective though the "stop" float would trigger when the float is hanging down. The "start" float will trigger when the float is hanging up (floating). The alarm float is similar if you want a high level alarm. If you want a low level alarm, you'd trigger it hanging down.

Most plants run stainless all thread rods down into the wet well and use either stainless tie wraps or black tie wraps to tie the float cable to the appropriate desired depth and to space the floats out so that they don't get tangled up.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> Each float might be "3-wire" NC/NO/COM and the second "can" is the setting weight, it is not a sensor.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I will double check, but last I looked , it was two wire


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> Thank you


May I also offer this opinion. It may cost more to not "patch" a fix, but in the long run making it right is best.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Just looking at all the wires coming from there...

I am guessing the following - black / white / orange / red / green #16 SOOW - one cable so that means two floats?
black / red / white / green #12 SOOW - two separate motors

Having said that, I am not sure why there would be a requirement for a 2 pole float switch (if in fact that is what they are).

Cheers
John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

For most pumps, that aren't Flygts, on the sensor cord black/white is your temp switch and red/orange is your seal fail.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You have the demand dose, but with four floats not five. Disregard the lowest float.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> Just looking at all the wires coming from there...
> 
> I am guessing the following - black / white / orange / red / green #16 SOOW - one cable so that means two floats?
> black / red / white / green #12 SOOW - two separate motors
> ...


The #16 are directly wired to motors and not part of the float switches


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> there is access fitting above grade. Or whatever you wanna call it. Explosion proof ?


Got a picture?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mpcxl said:


> The #16 are directly wired to motors and not part of the float switches


Your floats should be two wire. Each float looks like an extension cord without a ground.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> Got a picture?


Not as of yet. I will get more pics tommorrw

Mainly they want this operational


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Jlarson said:


> For most pumps, that aren't Flygts, on the sensor cord black/white is your temp switch and red/orange is your seal fail.


What is Flygts ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Flygt is a common brand of submersible pump, they use a 2 wire sensor setup in their pumps unlike other manufacturers that separate their temp and seal fail sensors.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)




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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Can I read prints ? No este hablo mucho libre .


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> You need to get an understanding of what's going on before you just terminate.
> 
> Are there more cable to bring into the enclosure? I see empty raceways.


If you’d like , I can give you some insight on contracting and pushing forward


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> If you’d like , I can give you some insight on contracting and pushing forward


I've got cheese in my mouth now and I await with baited breath. Please enlighten me. 

ETA: I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

MotoGP1199 said:


> View attachment 165046


Well that's a lot better than post 20.  

What did you use (program) to insert those labels in the picture?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

oldsparky52 said:


> Well that's a lot better than post 20.
> 
> What did you use (program) to insert those labels in the picture?


After reading through 3 pages I forgot what was mentioned where, LOL. I saw 2 wires on L1 on thought it might be good to make a picture that was somewhat easy to follow. I just did it on Revu but Microsoft paint would of worked as well.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

oldsparky52 said:


> You need to get an understanding of what's going on before you just terminate.
> 
> Are there more cable to bring into the enclosure? I see empty raceways.





mpcxl said:


> If you’d like , I can give you some insight on contracting and pushing forward


To be fair he saw two wires landed on L1 and floats landed on some other random terminals. He was actually giving you some good advise. Landing stuff in the wrong spot on some systems will either destroy equipment or get someone hurt


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

MotoGP1199 said:


> To be fair he saw two wires landed on L1 and floats landed on some other random terminals. He was actually giving you some good advise. Landing stuff in the wrong spot on some systems will either destroy equipment or get someone hurt


Thank you for that.

To the OP, I am not trying to be insulting (well the baited breath thing was a bit of a dig  ).


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Navyguy said:


> Just looking at all the wires coming from there...
> 
> I am guessing the following - black / white / orange / red / green #16 SOOW - one cable so that means two floats?
> black / red / white / green #12 SOOW - two separate motors
> ...


If you look at the print one contact just lights the warning light on the panel, other must be control.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

mpcxl said:


> Can I read prints ? No este hablo mucho libre .


Section on how to read print is in here


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

_well. I RTFM and _figured out where all wires go

however I can’t get float switches to function properly

basically , the only way I can start the pumps is manually on the motor starter


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I guess you don’t have all the wires where they belong. Bottom two floats must be floating before a pump will run.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

backstay said:


> I guess you don’t have all the wires where they belong. Bottom two floats must be floating before a pump will run.


Do you believe the float switch wires are polarized?

meaning , I must have my black and whites on the right contacts ?

Going by the print, I will only have one fail safe low level stop

So yes , this will matter depending on how it is pre wired internally


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Floats are just a switch. Unless they say NC, they make contact when flipped. Second float from the bottom is your run float.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

mpcxl said:


> Do you believe the float switch wires are polarized?
> 
> meaning , I must have my black and whites on the right contacts ?
> 
> ...


you are holding a Very good set of prints. among the best i have seen.
every tiny detail to make that system run is shown and labeled

did you rtfm for the floats? or at least put an ohmeter on them to check for how they operate ?
your print shows the colors for the terminals if you are uneasy about that

do you have enough liquid in the well to float the bottom and middle float ?
your print shows "START" on the middle float
several ppl told you that, before this

can the pump be run without liquid? or in other words can it be run while dry?
do you have the papers for the pumps?
many, many pumps cannot be run dry, it will ruin them


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

You could also disconnect the motor wiring and use jumpers on the float inputs to see if the unit will pull in the motor contactor when you properly jump out the float inputs to simulate different levels of liquid.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> You could also disconnect the motor wiring and use jumpers on the float inputs to see if the unit will pull in the motor contactor when you properly jump out the float inputs to simulate different levels of liquid.


i thought about that, but i didnt want to confuse him
it took all day to hookup 30 or 40 wires
it will be another half a day to get it all back after he spends half a day understanding the jumpers

operations should be able to pump in half a well full and let it pump down


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> operations should be able to pump in half a well full and let it pump down


That is a much better test.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

I want to know how all the cables got into the control box and I would love to see a picture of


mpcxl said:


> We were given sealant to pour in after install.
> 
> there is *access fitting above grade*. Or whatever you wanna call it. Explosion proof ?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i think the installers must have done that, he wasnt sure about pulling in the motor, much less the floats
sounds like a chico fitting to me

i really think he is a senior installer who got upgraded to terminator but isnt ready for it


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> i think the installers must have done that, he wasnt sure about pulling in the motor, much less the floats
> sounds like a chico fitting to me


Yea, steel under the EYS fitting? If not, what use is it? 

Anytime I see a sealoff in one of these installations I cringe.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> Yea, steel under the EYS fitting? If not, what use is it?
> 
> Anytime I see a sealoff in one of these installations I cringe.


what would you recommend for this ?


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Well pump

I had the pumps on auto , they needed to beon hand

motor is on a 3 way micro switch

no, I’ve been running around hooking up FA in 100k sq ft facility

this pump was a side project I got thrown into last minute and GC needed a pump test ASAP

just thought I could get some help


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I only see three floats. And I don’t think the middle one is activated yet.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

backstay said:


> I only see three floats. And I don’t think the middle one is activated yet.


4 floats

Alarm works , I can get the pumps to start with lead, but won’t kick off after it starts

I had to pull all wire thru 1 1/2”. Somebody ****ed up sizing


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Disconnect the stop float. Pumps shouldn’t start. Check the float with your meter, open or closed contact while floating.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> what would you recommend for this ?


To not connect the chase out of the well to the control cabinet and leave an airspace between the top of the chase and the bottom of the cabinet. The chase (conduit, usually PVC) should be cut below the classified location (if there is one) and the bottom of the control cabinet should be above the classified location (if there is one), and high enough that the cord grips for the cables from the well are out of any classified location. 

The "chase" conduit never leaves the classified location, the cabling is rated to be in classified location w/out conduit. I guess someone might want some physical protection around the cables, but a little framing would take care of that. I duct seal the conduit from the well. So, now when you have a motor replacement or float replacement, you disconnect it in the control panel, pull it out of the cord grip, pull out the duct seal, pull the cable out of the conduit (with a pull rope tied to it and lots of lube as you pull it out). Pull in the new cable from the new component by reversing the process.

Otherwise, someone is breaking sealing compound, probably damaging other conductors, and I bet it never gets put back like originally. 

The absolute worst install I ever saw was someone put a PVC JB inside the well, cut all the cords and made joints in that JB.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> Alarm works , I can get the pumps to start with lead, but won’t kick off after it starts


I can't see well enough to determine if there is a float connected to the "stop" terminal on that float control board. Is it connected?


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> I can't see well enough to determine if there is a float connected to the "stop" terminal on that float control board. Is it connected?


Yes. I think it has to clear for the motors to stop

I may need to raise it a bit 

I’m still figuring out how the whole thing operates


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> I’m still figuring out how the whole thing operates


My understanding:

The lowest float will be the stop float.

The 2nd lowest float should be the start float.

Since you have a 2nd motor and you say 4 floats, I am guessing the 3rd lowest float would be the aux motor call and possible alarm, the highest float should be the overfill alarm.

When the liquid get to the 2nd float, a motor comes on and then shuts off when the liquid gets down to the bottom float. 

If it gets to the 3rd float, 2nd pump.

4th, alarm


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

If I was trouble shooting, I would put an ohm meter across each float leads and see how they operate. According to the first print you posted, they should close on product rise and open on product fall. Once I determine they all work like they should, I would put a jumper with a switch across the stop float input. Close this switch will show the system the float is in the product rise position and allow the pump to come on when that float hits the product rise. The switch is there because that's how it turns off (during your testing, not normal operation).

Then I would jump out the lead input to see if the pump comes on. You should be able to just touch a wire across the input to simulate product rise and the motor should come on. You can simulate the 2nd motor and alarms the same way.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> May I also offer this opinion. It may cost more to not "patch" a fix, but in the long run making it right is best.


This statement is blowing my mind.

it’s like a triple negative. But I think I know what you’re trying to say

and the punctuation and grammar is off


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

mpcxl said:


> This statement is blowing my mind.
> 
> it’s like a triple negative. But I think I know what you’re trying to say
> 
> and the punctuation and grammar is off


Way to go champ !

what’s it matter to you anyway. You’ll be dead in 20 yrs regardless


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

If you flip the lowest float does the off float light cycle?


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

As some one who maintains this sort of stuff after the fact, do me a favor. Go find whoever sized that conduit.... and kick them right square in the nuts. First time a pump or float goes out there is going to be some mighty colorful language coming out of that hole.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mpcxl said:


> Way to go champ !
> 
> what’s it matter to you anyway. You’ll be dead in 20 yrs regardless


I assume you directed that at me and you are wrong! I won't make it 20 years, 10 is doubtful.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

mpcxl said:


> This statement is blowing my mind.
> 
> it’s like a triple negative. But I think I know what you’re trying to say
> 
> and the punctuation and grammar is off


well at least we arent criticizing you that hard
and believe me we have waayyy more right to criticize than you


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mburtis said:


> First time a pump or float goes out there is going to be some mighty colorful language coming out of that hole.


If that sealoff is poured, gonna be a lot more than "colorful language".  .


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> well at least we arent criticizing you that hard
> and believe me we have waayyy more right to criticize than you


I figure he feels like I insulted him, or hurt his feelings. My wife says I do that to people... naturally (she's tried for decades to train me better, it hasn't worked). 

I had a buzz when I wrote that and it shows. He's not wrong, just hurt. Sorry, not trying to hurt anyone.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> If that sealoff is poured, gonna be a lot more than "colorful language".  .


the Only thing to do at that point would be to turn off the power
saw thru the pipe below the seal
hope you can get enough slack to pull it into a Jbox


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I’ve used the direct burial splices when you couldn’t pull a new float or pump cable. I’ve had to use some on the jbox in the tank disaster too. I also had to lengthen a set of pump and float cables. The tank bottom was 16 ft down from grade. They said they used junk cars as fill because they were afraid the lid wouldn’t support that much gravel.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

mpcxl said:


> Way to go champ !
> 
> what’s it matter to you anyway. You’ll be dead in 20 yrs regardless


And you'll still be trying to wire some simple float switches.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

In your pictures at least one float is underwater but none of the red leds are illuminated to show the float is active. Check the fuse on the board.


Always best to have the floats out of the pit during set-up to ensure things are hooked up to the correct terminals.

Will it run in hand - If so then thermals and seal are good. If it will not then thermal or seal is bad (lights says seal is good - white boxes with tie wraps)
It will not run in auto as it is not seeing either the stop or the lead float (red leds are off). Fix this and green led should come on to indicate a pump is being called to run.


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