# small shock from water.



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

We service a commercial building. touching the facet is fine, but the 1st drop of water out of the facet, you receive a small shock when washing your hands. Like static. I can't figure out what it is. everything is grounded perfectly.

However, there is a sub panel in the same wall as copper plumbing pipes, with all metal studs. The panel is on one side. And the sink is on the other side. it's just a partition wall.


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## T Healy (Aug 27, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> We service a commercial building. touching the facet is fine, but the 1st drop of water out of the facet, you receive a small shock when washing your hands. Like static. I can't figure out what it is. everything is grounded perfectly.
> 
> However, there is a sub panel in the same wall as copper plumbing pipes, with all metal studs. The panel is on one side. And the sink is on the other side. it's just a partition wall.


maybe check voltage between metal studs and copper water line, plus water line to any other metal. drywall screw into live wire could energize metal studs


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Spark Master said:


> However, there is a sub panel in the same wall as copper plumbing pipes, with all metal studs. The panel is on one side. And the sink is on the other side. it's just a partition wall.


Check for an improper neutral-ground bond in the sub panel.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Is this site strictly 208/120 or 480/277 with transformers?

Measure current on the neutral ground bond either in the main service or at transformers. You may have to install a temporary jumper then remove the bond screw depending on the set up.

Perform a zero sequence measurement at the panel or panels. Zero sequence = measure all phase conductors and neutral simultaneously, reading should be zero.

Take current measurements on water pipes.

As noted take voltage readings between various points and the water pipe.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Is this site strictly 208/120 or 480/277 with transformers?
> 
> Measure current on the neutral ground bond either in the main service or at transformers. You may have to install a temporary jumper then remove the bond screw depending on the set up.
> 
> ...


Ive heard stories of remodels in buildings with lots of transformers where the existing panels were never bonded properly at the transformer with the neutral and ground. The electricians were getting hit from the neutral bar until they firgured out what was going on.

Electricity sure can do some crazy stuff when something isn't working properly.


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

I think everybody has the answer to some degree, it sure sounds like bonding issue. Check service neutral connections, transformers , water heating equipment.
Surprised you can touch faucet though ! Water is always there just not flowing .


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Plumber love replacing water pipes with plastic , could create bonding issues.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

It's a 208Y building. No plumbing work has been done in 15 years. The subpanel had a bonded neutral which I removed about a year ago. It's all BX cable entering the sub, with no grounds other than the sheathing.

The building is finished space, so it's not like I can remove walls and see conduits and pipes. 

The only thing I can do it kill the entire sub, and then see if it happens again. something is definitely screwy.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Have you tested voltage from the faucet to a known ground? Maybe come in after hours and start flipping breakers till one finally gets rid of the voltage, and start troubleshooting from there.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

I had a call like that, I found the heating element in the hot water heater was bad. That job was quite embarrassing actually. A couple of us kept being sent out their and we re-grounded her service, went through her attic trouble shooting everything, trouble shot her well and one day when I was out their, it clicked. She had a tech come out and replace the element and all was well.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

A lot of good ideas, I will get back there next week. :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> It's a 208Y building. No plumbing work has been done in 15 years. The subpanel had a bonded neutral which I removed about a year ago. It's all BX cable entering the sub, with no grounds other than the sheathing.
> 
> The building is finished space, so it's not like I can remove walls and see conduits and pipes.
> 
> The only thing I can do it kill the entire sub, and then see if it happens again. something is definitely screwy.


Then you did not read or understand what I wrote.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

brian john said:


> Then you did not read or understand what I wrote.


 Likewise, it's a 208Y building. So no transformer, other than the pad mount out front, which is not accessible, except by the poco.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Likewise, it's a 208Y building. So no transformer, other than the pad mount out front, which is not accessible, except by the poco.


That has nothing to do with this.

If you had transformers you use the EXACT SAME trouble shooting techniques as no transformer.

1. Instal a temporary bond jumper that allows you to put a clamp on on the jumper, then remove the actual jumper, just during your test.

2. Perform a Zero Sequence test all phase and neutral NO GROUNDs, reading should be zero.

3. Take current measurements on the water pipe even if it is just at the incoming water pipe, while you are there check the ground electrode conductor for current.

4. As someone else noted check the water heater elements and any resistive heater they may have such as VAV's

This may be time consuming but following basic steps should be easy to find.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Once you can recreate the scenario at will, you should be able to track it down with the suggestions posted.

Can you recreate the scenario at will? Does it happen every time?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

It does not happen every time. Only the 1st time using the facet. Then if you use it again immediately, it will not happen. You need to walk away for about 5 minutes, and then come back for it to happen again.

The intermittent part is what's making it more difficult.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> It does not happen every time. Only the 1st time using the facet. Then if you use it again immediately, it will not happen. You need to walk away for about 5 minutes, and then come back for it to happen again.
> 
> The intermittent part is what's making it more difficult.


Is there a big fuzzy shag carpet going into the bathroom. :laughing:


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Is there a big fuzzy shag carpet going into the bathroom. :laughing:


 Then the shock would happen touching the facet :thumbsup: Not from the water coming out of the facet.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Then the shock would happen touching the facet :thumbsup: Not from the water coming out of the facet.


Have you experienced the shock? Have you ever been able to read a voltage with a meter? If yes, from where to where?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I experienced it twice. No voltage from facet to ground hole of an outlet. No voltage from water to outlet ground.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I experienced it twice. No voltage from facet to ground hole of an outlet. No voltage from water to outlet ground.


Was that 2 out of 2 tries, or 2 out of ? tries?

Can you describe the "level" of shock? I understand it will need to be a subjective answer, but it's all we have.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

What's the floor made of? Wood or concrete? Vinyl or ceramic or ?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What's the floor made of? Wood or concrete? Vinyl or ceramic or ?


Static should be very easy to prove and should have been ruled out in a few minutes.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> Then the shock would happen touching the facet :thumbsup: Not from the water coming out of the facet.


Is it a swivel faucet? Maybe it's isolated with the rubber gaskets.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> Static should be very easy to prove and should have been ruled out in a few minutes.


How would you rule it out?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Static should be very easy to prove and should have been ruled out in a few minutes.


I did a library where they sealed the floors in the mechanical rooms, man, you would not believe the amount of static electricity that suddenly was produced just by moving your ladder over a few feet and climbing back up it. Why they would do that in a room where panels, PLC's, FA panel, and sensitive lighting control panels are at is beyond me.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's post soooo.....:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

If you can feel it, you can measure it. Break out the multimeter and get to testing.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> How would you rule it out?


Holding a key to avoid the shock touch the key to the faucet.

Spark or no spark?

Do this again without moving.

Spark or no spark?

Shuffle you feet along the floor or carpet and repeat.

Worst I have seen was.
We use to have a roller rink that had a plastic floor with inline skates one trip around the rink touch the wall and ZAP


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Spark Master said:


> We service a commercial building. touching the facet is fine, but the 1st drop of water out of the facet, you receive a small shock when washing your hands. Like static. I can't figure out what it is. everything is grounded perfectly. However, there is a sub panel in the same wall as copper plumbing pipes, with all metal studs. The panel is on one side. And the sink is on the other side. it's just a partition wall.


You really have to let us know what you find , good info for us all


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Static can do weird things..the fact that the shock is not continuous leads me to think static more than an electrical issue. Is the faucet set or the supply connections non-metallic? Liquid flow though non-metallic parts can create static, but it is very rare with water as it is often too conductive to permit any static buildup.
Many times I have experienced a static shock when taking the first sip out of a styrofoam cup that was filled from a bottled water dispenser.


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