# agressive shop flipping



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Because all the organized guys would get ce/cw classifications which would take work from class A guys who did the apprenticeship which would create bad blood. And if the good ones got backdoored in with an A card it would piss off all the guys who did the apprenticeship. Unless it was a giant shop that was being organized id bet a lot of the guys would lose their job


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Because all the organized guys would get ce/cw classifications which would take work from class A guys who did the apprenticeship which would create bad blood. And if the good ones got backdoored in with an A card it would piss off all the guys who did the apprenticeship. Unless it was a giant shop that was being organized id bet a lot of the guys would lose their job


yeah I'm talking the big dogs, 100+ employees. I get what your saying, but wouldnt the new cw's be not taking work since they are working for the same company as before, and as for the A-men cant they test in? im pretty sure our local does this


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> yeah I'm talking the big dogs, 100+ employees. I get what your saying, but wouldnt the new cw's be not taking work since they are working for the same company as before, and as for the A-men cant they test in? im pretty sure our local does this


The large 100 + man shops take care of their employees so the IBEW has nothing to offer other than causing them to pay dues.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shop flipping? I would probably start with a big loader with pallet forks (kinda like a lull on steroids) and go from there. Might have to use a saw to cut the studs or a torch on the beams to make it move easier.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Shop flipping? I would probably start with a big loader with pallet forks (kinda like a lull on steroids) and go from there. Might have to use a saw to cut the studs or a torch on the beams to make it move easier.


the next reality show , Shop Flippers


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Some locals have done this, usually to cherrypick. Around here, when shops get larger and start bidding against IBEW contractors, they usually operate on a gameplan of one 1/2 way decent electrician on site, with little to know supervisory experience, a couple of jacklegs, and then a plethora of what you'd call day laborers. To kill the goose, you chop the head off.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Some locals have done this, usually to cherrypick. Around here, when shops get larger and start bidding against IBEW contractors, they usually operate on a gameplan of *one 1/2 way decent electrician on site, with little to know supervisory experience,* a couple of jacklegs, and then a plethora of what you'd call day laborers. To kill the goose, you chop the head off.


and union guys wonder why they are not thought of very highly by non union electricians


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

rewire said:


> The large 100 + man shops take care of their employees so the IBEW has nothing to offer other than causing them to pay dues.


Exactly! 

To the op, don't you think the guys who work for those shops are already aware of the IBEW's existence? If we wanted to be union, we'd have joined the union. I've worked for a shop that was salted. I'm non union for a reason and would prefer if the IBEW would mind their own business.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

For the most part aggressive salting doesn't work. Larger companies that avoid being unionized do so two ways. They either take very good care of their employees ( good for them btw, any company that treats employees well should be lauded ) or they do so with FUD ( fear uncertainity doubt ).

The companies that do so with good treatment don't need unionizing and those that do so with FUD cannot be flipped because they will never survive the process. They will burn their employees rather than pay decently or provide good conditions and benefits. Those are the companies, as someone mentioned, you pull their skill guys out of. Like an inverse cancer you chop out the good tissue and let the rotten part die and wither off.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

rewire said:


> The large 100 + man shops take care of their employees so the IBEW has nothing to offer other than causing them to pay dues.


 I'd wager that's probably pretty accurate.

I've said it before, I don't think non-union shops are automatically the "enemy" or should even be the focus of unions. Go after any shop that doesn't treats workers fairly, or doesn't provide safe working conditions, or doesn't stick to labor laws.

The merit shops that sincerely look out for their workers are already achieving the union ideal.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

rewire said:


> and union guys wonder why they are not thought of very highly by non union electricians


You misunderstand the quoted text - the half trained guy running hoards of cheap untrained labor are the non union guys.

Funny story - I was on a job that was being completed after the original contractor got kicked off and had their bond attached. The original ( non union ) contractor had one smart electrician who laid out all the work, and a guy who spoke spanish who ran the day laborers. ( we knew this because the day laborers came to the site to work )

When we took over, there was hundreds of sticks of 3/4" emt with box sets and a pallet of factory ninetys, no benders but a emt box set kicker.

The more we dumb down the industry, the more I see of crap like that.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

fistofbolts said:


> why do we not have a special forces type setup. kind of like the whole salting program, but extremely coordinated and planned out long term. example: hall wants to take over and get a large competitor shop organized, so we make a plan to get some very knowledgeable trained workers in their that are good with people and their job, I'm talking general foreman/foremen types. obviously the hall would have to supplement the difference in wages and make a good incentive to do that. follow up with the people implanted, find out who their main guys are running work etc. and have a planned recruitment for them between other shops, give them offers they cant refuse. have another program setup for all the other guys to get them organized etc.....and so on.
> * I just do not understand why we are not being much more aggressive and trying new things*. as we all see that the pace we are going now is not nearly enough. its all fair game, big business is trying to destroy us with politics. what is the difference, and we wouldnt be attempting to harm the target shops, might actually help them.



Would going back to second grade to learn how to write be considered trying something new?

Come on, you all were thinking it. :laughing:


Instead of stealing why not create? :confused1:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> You misunderstand the quoted text - the half trained guy running hoards of cheap untrained labor are the non union guys.
> 
> Funny story - I was on a job that was being completed after the original contractor got kicked off and had their bond attached. The original ( non union ) contractor had one smart electrician who laid out all the work, and a guy who spoke spanish who ran the day laborers. ( we knew this because the day laborers came to the site to work )
> 
> ...


That is not the norm. Just as lazy union guys is not the norm.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BRAIN OF DUMMY said:


> why do we not have a special forces type setup. kind of like the whole salting program, but extremely coordinated and planned out long term. example: hall wants to take over and get a large competitor shop organized, so we make a plan to get some very knowledgeable trained workers in their that are good with people and their job, I'm talking general foreman/foremen types. obviously the hall would have to supplement the difference in wages and make a good incentive to do that. follow up with the people implanted, find out who their main guys are running work etc. and have a planned recruitment for them between other shops, give them offers they can't refuse. have another program setup for all the other guys to get them organized etc…..and so on.
> I just do not understand why we are not being much more aggressive and trying new things. as we all see that the pace we are going now is not nearly enough. its all fair game, big business is trying to destroy us with politics. what is the difference, and we wouldnt be attempting to harm the target shops, might actually help them.


Why do you continue to post stupid trollish questions? Are you trying to stir crap or are you just a f'ing idiot?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

rewire said:


> That is not the norm. Just as lazy union guys is not the norm.


No, it is not the norm. Most of the non union guys I know do nice work and put in a good day's effort. Heck, most folks ( union or non-union ) just want to go to work, do a nice job and go home in one piece.

But it seems like I run into sleazier and sleazier contractors every day - most of them are non union and are not under the same scrutiny as union contractors.

I blame the contractors, not the men who work for them. Most folks are honest and willing to work and given the opportunity and tools, willing to do good and safe work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> and union guys wonder why they are not thought of very highly by non union electricians


 No we don't.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Big John said:


> I'd wager that's probably pretty accurate.
> 
> I've said it before, I don't think non-union shops are automatically the "enemy" or should even be the focus of unions. Go after any shop that doesn't treats workers fairly, or doesn't provide safe working conditions, or doesn't stick to labor laws.
> 
> The merit shops that sincerely look out for their workers are already achieving the union ideal.


 You're absolutely right. Any effort to unionize a large, happy, well paid nonunion shop would fail.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> No, it is not the norm. Most of the non union guys I know do nice work and put in a good day's effort. Heck, most folks ( union or non-union ) just want to go to work, do a nice job and go home in one piece.
> 
> But it seems like I run into sleazier and sleazier contractors every day - most of them are non union and are not under the same scrutiny as union contractors.
> 
> I blame the contractors, not the men who work for them. Most folks are honest and willing to work and given the opportunity and tools, willing to do good and safe work.


A contractor here landed a bunch of work then did not complete any of it he was going from bank to bank getting loans based on contracts( back in'03) he disappeared with all the cash . All his guys did not get paid and the material for the jobs was not paid for. 
The BA pulled his bond to pay benefits The hall did not vet this guy before letting him become signatory.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> You're absolutely right. Any effort to unionize a large, happy, well paid nonunion shop would fail.


why let a little thing like the guys not wanting to be union stop you.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> Why do you continue to post stupid trollish questions? Are you trying to stir crap or are you just a f'ing idiot?


u know it was something I've always wanted to know. I didn't know it was against your almighty laws of conduct sir genius. not trying to stir crap, so I guess I am a f'ing idiot in your book. oh well. quite trolling my threads with your comments.

anyhow thanks to everyone who posted, I think I have a much better view on things. some day I may know everything like the great brian john and will not need to ask such things lol.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have been union and non-union. I seriously don't have an issue with either side. Philosophically, however, I have serious issues with any person or organization who tries to force me to do anything against my will.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> I have been union and non-union. I seriously don't have an issue with either side. Philosophically, however, I have serious issues with any person or organization who tries to force me to do anything against my will.


What I was picturing was more of a good offer. Like better pay and benefits etc. Nobody forced on anything. The only ones being forced would be the contractor at the end of the day, when the majority of his men sit him down and demand a fair deal.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

So where is it written that non-union shop owners don't give their guys a fair deal? Please read this to get a perspective outside of your own little world:

www.meritalberta.com/dnn1/MeritHome/About/History.aspx


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Maybe you should take care of your own first. This, from an apprentice posting elsewhere on this site:

"_Local 3 apprentice program is like a hitler based nazi communist program. Drone to the system. Get used to the local 3 life and learn to have no life. No excuses count. No time for anything else. Long commutes. **** pay. And your always on the firing line. Shotguns loaded at the hall ready to blow you down. Typical "were the best trade ever na na poo poo" ****. The dedication and commitment and expectation level is ridiculous and in this day and age the amount of stress early morning wake ups and the way the current economy is and living costs are the job just don't cut it now to "dream" for the 5 years from now top pay... Which isn't a million dollars a year anyway.... Don't know bout you but I'm trying to make serious amounts of money and live happily . Not make 150 grand a year and live within my means while 80% of my days are committed to local 3 work school union meetings Friday commitees while the rest of the people in my life live and go by with barely any time spent. ****s changing. Prob won't be any pension for us apprentices now in local 3 bc of how they won't tell you the union majority in NYC isn't good. It's split 50 50 union and non union work in NYC. I respect the union and it's idea. But don't respect how they don't respect apprentices and their lives. Supposed to be a brotherhood not a concentration cam_p ."


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

This is too good to be kept private. 

In response to my smartass post regarding the cluster f that was the original post in the thread




electricmanscott said:


> Would going back to second grade to learn how to write be considered trying something new?
> 
> Come on, you all were thinking it. :laughing:
> 
> ...



I get this PM



dumberthanIthought said:


> fu I was driving you ass.
> whatever


So the defense of the mess of a post was because_ you were driving_?? Wow :blink:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I would watch your a$$. There are two ways to interpret that  .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> u know it was something I've always wanted to know. I didn't know it was against your almighty laws of conduct sir genius. not trying to stir crap, so I guess I am a f'ing idiot in your book. oh well. quite trolling my threads with your comments.
> 
> anyhow thanks to everyone who posted, I think I have a much better view on things. some day I may know everything like the great brian john and will not need to ask such things lol.


You know the old saying "There are no stupid questions", once again you have disproved that.

And you sure come across like an idiot.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> So where is it written that non-union shop owners don't give their guys a fair deal? Please read this to get a perspective outside of your own little world:
> 
> www.meritalberta.com/dnn1/MeritHome/About/History.aspx


not saying all of them don't by any means.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> You know the old saying "There are no stupid questions", once again you have disproved that.
> 
> And you sure come across like an idiot.


sure buddy. whatever the almighty brian john. I will be sure to run any future threads by the thread police. so you can determine if they are worthy of your vast intelligence. maybe you really are 1,000x my intelligence. we will get u a cookie or something. we all have our opinions and voices. 

as far as this thread goes, I think it is fairly educational and good to see both sides sharing their pieces in a open discusion. no real harm in that.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

electricmanscott said:


> This is too good to be kept private.
> 
> In response to my smartass post regarding the cluster f that was the original post in the thread
> 
> ...


once again the thread police have arrived. people like you censor free, open discussions. say what you want. it doesnt matter.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> sure buddy. whatever the almighty brian john.* I will be sure to run any future threads by the thread police*. so you can determine if they are worthy of your vast intelligence. maybe you really are 1,000x my intelligence. we will get u a cookie or something. we all have our opinions and voices.
> 
> as far as this thread goes, I think it is fairly educational and good to see both sides sharing their pieces in a open discusion. no real harm in that.


Thank you for your consideration in this matter.:thumbsup:


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> Maybe you should take care of your own first. This, from an apprentice posting elsewhere on this site:
> 
> "Local 3 apprentice program is like a hitler based nazi communist program. Drone to the system. Get used to the local 3 life and learn to have no life. No excuses count. No time for anything else. Long commutes. **** pay. And your always on the firing line. Shotguns loaded at the hall ready to blow you down. Typical "were the best trade ever na na poo poo" ****. The dedication and commitment and expectation level is ridiculous and in this day and age the amount of stress early morning wake ups and the way the current economy is and living costs are the job just don't cut it now to "dream" for the 5 years from now top pay... Which isn't a million dollars a year anyway.... Don't know bout you but I'm trying to make serious amounts of money and live happily . Not make 150 grand a year and live within my means while 80% of my days are committed to local 3 work school union meetings Friday commitees while the rest of the people in my life live and go by with barely any time spent. ****s changing. Prob won't be any pension for us apprentices now in local 3 bc of how they won't tell you the union majority in NYC isn't good. It's split 50 50 union and non union work in NYC. I respect the union and it's idea. But don't respect how they don't respect apprentices and their lives. Supposed to be a brotherhood not a concentration camp ."


the thing with this guy. I can understand what he is going through. He is disgruntled by the difficulty and time requirements involved with the apprenticeship. I think we have all been there at some point. and after he makes it through he will probaly change his viewpoint vastly. the apprenticeship is life consuming.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> Thank you for your consideration in this matter.:thumbsup:


we all secretely aspire to be a god of the forums like you one day. maybe I truly dont have what it takes. only time will tell.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

fistofbolts said:


> we all secretely aspire to be a god of the forums like you one day. maybe I truly dont have what it takes. only time will time.


No need to wait. :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> we all secretely aspire to be a god of the forums like you one day. maybe I truly dont have what it takes. only time will tell.


My the god of the forum? nope just another an electrician with an opinion, doesn't necessarily make my opinion any better than anyone else's.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> My the god of the forum? nope just another an electrician with an opinion, doesn't necessarily make my opinion any better than anyone else's.


not buying it


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> not buying it


It is not for sale.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> So where is it written that non-union shop owners don't give their guys a fair deal? Please read this to get a perspective outside of your own little world:
> 
> www.meritalberta.com/dnn1/MeritHome/About/History.aspx


 When a merit shop owner and employee work out a deal, who has the negotiating advantage?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> When a merit shop owner and employee work out a deal, who has the negotiating advantage?


Depends who needs who more


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> Maybe you should take care of your own first. This, from an apprentice posting elsewhere on this site:
> 
> "_Local 3 apprentice program is like a hitler based nazi communist program. Drone to the system. Get used to the local 3 life and learn to have no life. No excuses count. No time for anything else. Long commutes. **** pay. And your always on the firing line. Shotguns loaded at the hall ready to blow you down. Typical "were the best trade ever na na poo poo" ****. The dedication and commitment and expectation level is ridiculous and in this day and age the amount of stress early morning wake ups and the way the current economy is and living costs are the job just don't cut it now to "dream" for the 5 years from now top pay... Which isn't a million dollars a year anyway.... Don't know bout you but I'm trying to make serious amounts of money and live happily . Not make 150 grand a year and live within my means while 80% of my days are committed to local 3 work school union meetings Friday commitees while the rest of the people in my life live and go by with barely any time spent. ****s changing. Prob won't be any pension for us apprentices now in local 3 bc of how they won't tell you the union majority in NYC isn't good. It's split 50 50 union and non union work in NYC. I respect the union and it's idea. But don't respect how they don't respect apprentices and their lives. Supposed to be a brotherhood not a concentration cam_p ."


 We do take care of our own. Apprentices are never unemployed. I'm doing very well too. When unemployment gets high, we all furlough and share the bad times. Maybe we shouldn't put too much stock in the words of one disenchanted apprentice, who admittedly is already missing too much work or school by having to report every week to the Friday night committee with his paystub? Or maybe, he's just having a bad day. Or week.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> We do take care of our own. Apprentices are never unemployed. I'm doing very well too. When unemployment gets high, we all furlough and share the bad times. Maybe we shouldn't put too much stock in the words of one disenchanted apprentice, who admittedly is already missing too much work or school by having to report every week to the Friday night committee with his paystub? Or maybe, he's just having a bad day. Or week.


I know you are a new member here and not sure how long you have been an apprentice, but several years ago when the Union's Messiah had all those shovel ready projects, we had apprentices posting here about being out of work.

May not happen often and may not have happened in your local but unemployed apprentices has happened.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> I know you are a new member here and not sure how long you have been an apprentice, but several years ago when the Union's Messiah had all those shovel ready projects, we had apprentices posting here about being out of work.
> 
> May not happen often and may not have happened in your local but unemployed apprentices has happened.


2014, Los Angeles is 4,752 sq miles with a population close to 10 million. In one of the nation's biggest cities there are some 130 apprentices out of work right now. Out of about 900 apprentices. Some of these apprentices have been out of work for over one month. These guys have to drive almost everyday to the hall just to be told to return in a few days. 

There has to be a solution to regaining market share. A solution to organizing other electrical workers so that they may better improve their lives.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> 2014, Los Angeles is 4,752 sq miles with a population close to 10 million. In one of the nation's biggest cities there are some 130 apprentices out of work right now. Out of about 900 apprentices. Some of these apprentices have been out of work for over one month. These guys have to drive almost everyday to the hall just to be told to return in a few days.
> 
> There has to be a solution to regaining market share. A solution to organizing other electrical workers so that they may better improve their lives.


you need to include in the solution the contractor who creates the jobs and the Client who pays for the jobs.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Potential11 said:


> 2014, Los Angeles is 4,752 sq miles with a population close to 10 million. In one of the nation's biggest cities there are some 130 apprentices out of work right now. Out of about 900 apprentices. Some of these apprentices have been out of work for over one month. These guys have to drive almost everyday to the hall just to be told to return in a few days.
> 
> There has to be a solution to regaining market share. A solution to organizing other electrical workers so that they may better improve their lives.


thank you. 

the fact they require these guys to drive in almost every day is absolutely ridiculous. 

I'm with you on regaining market share. the whole point of my thread. we have to do something at least. I only hear about what isn't going to work and no solutions.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> thank you.
> 
> *the fact they require these guys to drive in almost every day is absolutely ridiculous. *
> 
> I'm with you on regaining market share. the whole point of my thread. we have to do something at least. I only hear about what isn't going to work and no solutions.


In this day and age with the internet and the cost of gas there is no reason these workers are subjected to this added PIA.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


> you need to include in the solution the contractor who creates the jobs and the Client who pays for the jobs.



Can you help me understand better? Please explain how to include them. 

I know here in Los Angeles there are a lot of politics played within the city 
and PLAs being added but market share isn't being increased.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> In this day and age with the internet and the cost of gas there is no reason these workers are subjected to this added PIA.


PIA= Pain In Ass?


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

fistofbolts said:


> thank you.
> 
> the fact they require these guys to drive in almost every day is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> I'm with you on regaining market share. the whole point of my thread. we have to do something at least. I only hear about what isn't going to work and no solutions.


I think part of the solution is getting more members involved. Having a greater participation in the communities one live in and attending the LOCAL 's meetings to offer suggestions and implement change with the union reps that are suppose to be representing US. Letting them feel our presence through our support or opposition. 

I am new to the organized labor movement but not to the labor movement. I worked doing labor and there are many are still work labor and get stepped on and mistreated everyday. We as organized labor no better than that and need to know that a harm done to one is a harm to all.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Potential11 said:


> I think part of the solution is getting more members involved. Having a greater participation in the communities one live in and attending the LOCAL 's meetings to offer suggestions and implement change with the union reps that are suppose to be representing US. Letting them feel our presence through our support or opposition.
> 
> I am new to the organized labor movement but not to the labor movement. I worked doing labor and there are many are still work labor and get stepped on and mistreated everyday. We as organized labor no better than that and need to know that a harm done to one is a harm to all.


what suggestions and changes would do it though? I think our reps want to do what they can.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> PIA= Pain In Ass?


Correct


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> what suggestions and changes would do it though? I think our reps want to do what they can.


NO BODY IN LABOR WANTS TO HEAR NUMBER ONE BUT

1. All that money spent supporting Democrats, spread it around, big business does it they grease palms on both sides of the aisle. If the union money was spread a little to Republicans you would see some attitude changes. And if not pull the money back, all that money given to the Democrats has bought labor very little.

2. Work with the open shop contractors and try to educate them. This may only work with a small percentage of shops.

3. Hire the best of the open shop men, that whats our local has done. 

4. Show open shop men all the benefits of being union, and blowup the myth that dues are wallet breaking, when in fact dues are minimal compared to wages MOST union men make.

5. Plug the holes in the borders that allow really low paid labor in.

6. Encourage union men to start union shops, make it easy for them to get started.

7. Educate the members to treat open shop men with respect, none of this calling them rats and the like. Quit thinking because we are union we are better than them. Cut out the messing with their vehicles and the like.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

rewire said:


> A contractor here landed a bunch of work then did not complete any of it he was going from bank to bank getting loans based on contracts( back in'03) he disappeared with all the cash . All his guys did not get paid and the material for the jobs was not paid for.
> The BA pulled his bond to pay benefits The hall did not vet this guy before letting him become signatory.


That happens a lot actually. Many companies fail in this business, union or non union. I worked for two companies that went under in the last ten years - both had their bonds pulled and I got my benefits covered and most of my pay. As a non union worker - what recourse do you have if the contractor decides to not pay you ( or not put in for federal taxes etc. )?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> That happens a lot actually. Many companies fail in this business, union or non union. I worked for two companies that went under in the last ten years - both had their bonds pulled and I got my benefits covered and most of my pay. As a non union worker - what recourse do you have if the contractor decides to not pay you ( or not put in for federal taxes etc. )?


I have a long term employee (22 years) that worked for 4 companies in a row that went belly up before I hired him, two of them were 50+ year old companies. I was leery of hiring him fearing his curse.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> NO BODY IN LABOR WANTS TO HEAR THIS BUT
> 
> 1. All that money spent supporting Democrats, spread it around, big business does it they grease palms on both sides of the aisle


No - Republicans hate unions. Just look at the folks on this forum. Hate.
Not dislike, not find unappealing, hate. Capital H hate. 

The entire concept behind republicans currently is lower taxes and remove restrictions on businesses and rich people. Part of that core is lower wages and worker rights. 

I do agree with most of the rest of what you say, but forget convincing the anti-America party to have anything even pleasant to say about unions.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

the only way to control the market is to control the labor pool. This is where the unions have missed the boat . For to many years the union was an exclusive club that you could not get into unless you were connected. An attitude of entitlement was another issue with the union to many thought all electrical work was theirs and anybody who was not union trained could not perform . at one time this was not far from the truth most non union shops just did not have the training and manpower to compete so they sought the smaller jobs ,jobs that union contractors did not want because of the lower profit. One of the biggest mistakes the union made was letting go of the residential market.
Fast forward to today and you see many large non union shops going head to head with union shops for work that had traditionally been theirs these same contractors who cut their teeth in the residential small commercial market. Also the political spectrum has moved towards a less than friendly attitude towards unions. With more states enacting right to work and more people questioning the need for Davis Beacon the unions are in trouble. The unions did great things for labor in the past and greatly improved conditions for working people but now most workers don't feel a need to have a union . It is the age old problem we won the war now we don't need the army.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> No - *Republicans hate THAT unions DO NOT GREASE THEIR PALMS*. Just look at the folks on this forum. Hate.
> Not dislike, not find unappealing, hate. Capital H hate.
> 
> The entire concept behind republicans currently is lower taxes and remove restrictions on businesses and rich people. Part of that core is lower wages and worker rights.
> ...



FIFY

Flat out it is all about money and that unions do not get this is a problem for labor.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> the only way to control the market is to control the labor pool. This is where the unions have missed the boat . . It is the age old problem we won the war now we don't need the army.


When I started in the trade Washington DC was 100% union, no open shops dared to cross the river into DC. When metro (the subway) started the union shops and local were closed to hiring new members outside of apprentices and metro took all the union labor pool. This opened commercial jobs in DC to open shops and it has been that way since.

Our local did change and became new shop friendly, now sure how many locals can say they are growing in membership, but I am told we are growing.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

fistofbolts said:


> what suggestions and changes would do it though? I think our reps want to do what they can.



Yes, the reps do what they can. That I agree with. They spend a lot of time politcking with government and working on PLAs. Maybe if they would each reach out to more of there brothers for help in their respective districts and directing certain contractors to where the work is could help ; is that what NECA suppose to do?


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> Some locals have done this, usually to cherrypick. Around here, when shops get larger and start bidding against IBEW contractors, they usually operate on a gameplan of one 1/2 way decent electrician on site, with little to know supervisory experience, a couple of jacklegs, and then a plethora of what you'd call day laborers. To kill the goose, you chop the head off.


No so. I can show you many nonunion companies that have extremely educated men. Paid for their apprenticeship, treat them well. Have had the same guys for 25 years or more. 
I can show some that treat their men better than the union does!


Your attitude is one reason there is such a issue with union vs nonunion. 
The nonunion side goes on about dues and always being laid off. The union side goes on about the crappy work conditions, untrained workers, no tools and such.
Both side have NO clue and are spouting Bull poop !


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> No so. I can show you many nonunion companies that have extremely educated men. Paid for their apprenticeship, treat them well. Have had the same guys for 25 years or more.
> I can show some that treat their men better than the union does!
> 
> 
> !


You know F B Har……..Great open shop company


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> Yes, the reps do what they can. That I agree with. They spend a lot of time politicking with *1/2* government and working on PLAs. Maybe if they would each reach out to more of there brothers for help in their respective districts and directing certain contractors to where the work is could help ; is that what NECA suppose to do?



FIFY


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> No - Republicans hate unions. Just look at the folks on this forum. Hate.
> Not dislike, not find unappealing, hate. Capital H hate.
> 
> The entire concept behind republicans currently is lower taxes and remove restrictions on businesses and rich people. Part of that core is lower wages and worker rights.
> ...


I know here in LOS ANGELES in the Antelope Valley area there is a Republican that loves unions. We create jobs and careers. How can anyone be against that?

http://www.dailynews.com/environmen...almdale-power-plant-gets-major-board-approval


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


> the only way to control the market is to control the labor pool. This is where the unions have missed the boat . For to many years the union was an exclusive club that you could not get into unless you were connected. An attitude of entitlement was another issue with the union to many thought all electrical work was theirs and anybody who was not union trained could not perform . at one time this was not far from the truth most non union shops just did not have the training and manpower to compete so they sought the smaller jobs ,jobs that union contractors did not want because of the lower profit. One of the biggest mistakes the union made was letting go of the residential market.
> 
> _IBEW AND NECA_


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> fify
> 
> 
> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


fify?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> fify?


*F*IXED *I*T *F*OR *Y*OU



aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> rewire said:
> 
> 
> > the only way to control the market is to control the labor pool. This is where the unions have missed the boat . For to many years the union was an exclusive club that you could not get into unless you were connected. An attitude of entitlement was another issue with the union to many thought all electrical work was theirs and anybody who was not union trained could not perform . at one time this was not far from the truth most non union shops just did not have the training and manpower to compete so they sought the smaller jobs ,jobs that union contractors did not want because of the lower profit. One of the biggest mistakes the union made was letting go of the residential market.
> ...


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> *F*IXED *I*T *F*OR *Y*OU
> 
> 
> 
> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



:thumbsup: _I did notice that big 1/2 in front of government. I totally see your point. 
They should work with both sides and work together to get more of the city employed and advancing. Bipartisan agreement, right? 
_


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> I know you are a new member here and not sure how long you have been an apprentice, but several years ago when the Union's Messiah had all those shovel ready projects, we had apprentices posting here about being out of work.
> 
> May not happen often and may not have happened in your local but unemployed apprentices has happened.


 I believe it, others here have stated their apprentices are out of work. Once a 1st year is dispatched, they work until they turn out. During the last recession a 1st year, 2nd semester class was cancelled for 6 months and those apprentices not yet dispatched to their 1st job had a longer wait. Our program isn't recession proof.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> you need to include in the solution the contractor who creates the jobs and the Client who pays for the jobs.


 Actually, the market and economic trends, then the clients create the jobs, the contractor is just a labor broker.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Potential11 said:


> I think part of the solution is getting more members involved. Having a greater participation in the communities one live in and attending the LOCAL 's meetings to offer suggestions and implement change with the union reps that are suppose to be representing US. Letting them feel our presence through our support or opposition.
> 
> I am new to the organized labor movement but not to the labor movement. I worked doing labor and there are many are still work labor and get stepped on and mistreated everyday. We as organized labor no better than that and need to know that a harm done to one is a harm to all.


 Our local and the NY central labor council is very active in getting and supporting members, and encourages them to run for local offices from the school boards to town and county councils.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Potential11 said:
> 
> 
> > NECA may not be all that concerned about seeing more union shops. I know here the large contractors hated it, when union members started shops and many had to open shops as at that time the local was not exactly pro small business startups.
> ...


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Our local and the NY central labor council is very active in getting and supporting members, and encourages them to run for local offices from the school boards to town and county councils.



Yes, it is the same here.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> I believe it, others here have stated their apprentices are out of work. Once a 1st year is dispatched, they work until they turn out. During the last recession a 1st year, 2nd semester class was cancelled for 6 months and those apprentices not yet dispatched to their 1st job had a longer wait. Our program isn't recession proof.


It's not like that anymore. I have gone back to the hall 5 times now. This last time is the longest time I have been out of work since I have joined. 3 of the contractors I have worked for asked me to sit at home the other two were RIFs. One of those two contractors was just shady and I spoke up about their practices to them like letting laborers run pvc conduit and blow lines is OUR work. Well it didn't go down while I was there, but I didn't last long either. The other contractor just did a huge layoff and is respectable UNION contractor in our local.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> NO BODY IN LABOR WANTS TO HEAR NUMBER ONE BUT
> 
> 1. All that money spent supporting Democrats, spread it around, big business does it they grease palms on both sides of the aisle. If the union money was spread a little to Republicans you would see some attitude changes. And if not pull the money back, all that money given to the Democrats has bought labor very little.


I agree. Union leaders used to support democrats simply because they were democrats, but that's changed now. This has been brought up at a few meetings when our local (not officially) endorsed a dem that was up for reelection. A member questioned why, that the candidate has yet to do a thing for us.


> 2. Work with the open shop contractors and try to educate them. This may only work with a small percentage of shops.
> 
> 3. Hire the best of the open shop men, that whats our local has done.
> 
> 4. Show open shop men all the benefits of being union, and blowup the myth that dues are wallet breaking, when in fact dues are minimal compared to wages MOST union men make.


Theres an entire corporate campaign of myths that basically takes all the worst of the worst and lumps it all together into one frightful package. One of them is if you sign pledge cards, the union is just going to replace you with their unemployed men. And most of the nonunion guys believe it, never considering the source. I've worked in the nonunion sector and lived it. I also work with a lot of organized hands and heard all the stories. Another is the union dues will wipe out any increase in wages. But most nonunion guys don't even know how much the dues are, or what union wages are. Another is how long the wait for work is, implying that it applies to everybody. One guy was told we all have to take 3 months a year off, unpaid. Of course, never mentioning that 56.00 an hour x 35 a week x 40 weeks = 78,400.00 compared to their 25.00 x 40 x 52= $52,000.00...


> 5. Plug the holes in the borders that allow really low paid labor in.


If that would work I'd be for it, but the fact is it's impractical. A better way is stiff jail sentences and forfeiture of assets for anyone employing an illegal would work better. Corporate law would have to change, and they'd have to hire (and pay) smarter DAs and ADS to successfully prosecute the offenders, instead of these simple, petty street drug criminals.


> 6. Encourage union men to start union shops, make it easy for them to get started.


A couple of the more successful shops I've worked for were owned by ex-journeymen, a couple were owned by large corporations (Emcor) presently, owned by an ex journeyman. I'm a firm believer that just because one is a good electrician does not make one a good businessman.


> 7. Educate the members to treat open shop men with respect, none of this calling them rats and the like. Quit thinking because we are union we are better than them. Cut out the messing with their vehicles and the like.


Most of the guys like me have the attitude it's not the nonunion electrician's fault he's in the position he's in, just trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over his head, just like everybody else. No worker is my enemy. There are others though who take the stand that anyone not working union is a scab and that's all there is to it.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> No so. I can show you many nonunion companies that have extremely educated men. Paid for their apprenticeship, treat them well. Have had the same guys for 25 years or more.
> I can show some that treat their men better than the union does!
> 
> 
> ...


 It is so. I speak only of what I know and have seen. I can't speak to what's going on in Maryland, and I don't. I do know what goes on around HERE. A contractor I worked for back in the 80's with about 20 guys only retains ONE of the original guys I worked with, who I am still in touch with today. He pays nothing towards anyone's education, offers benefits only if the employee pays 100% of them, and turns over the entire workforce roughly every 2 years. And the pay hasn't gone up since I worked there, except for his one key guy. This is a COMMON senerio here in the tri-state region we've dubbed "chew em up and spit em out."


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

scab= Someone willing to take a striking workers job because they couldnt have got the job otherwise.They care about no-one but themselves,have allegiance to no-one,including who they work for, and cannot see long term. They will take almost any abuse from their employer, and dont give a whit about their fellow workers.This is the true makeup of a scab.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scab


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

I did hear our business manager say we are for the political candidate that is for us. Either Democrat or Republican. 

I have also met a few older hands who worked for a L.A. contractor that was union in the 80's and now is non union. They were given the choice to join or go back to the hall. That contractor basically is one of the local's biggest competitors and has been doing non union work for over 20 years. That's a lot of man hours. 

I will need to approach some of my local representatives with some questions about this.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> FIFY
> 
> Flat out it is all about money and that unions do not get this is a problem for labor.


No, you are just ignoring the facts. Union money doesn't compare to Koch money. Unions have millions, Koch's have billions. No comparison. Hating unions is a republican plank. Unions mean worker rights and more expense which businesses hate. Republicans are all about placating business.

Ignore it all you want, whistle a happy tune, it is undeniable and everyone knows it - even if you don't want to admit it out loud, even you know it is the truth.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> No, you are just ignoring the facts. Union money doesn't compare to Koch money. Unions have millions, Koch's have billions. No comparison. Hating unions is a republican plank. Unions mean worker rights and more expense which businesses hate. Republicans are all about placating business.
> 
> Ignore it all you want, whistle a happy tune, it is undeniable and everyone knows it - even if you don't want to admit it out loud, even you know it is the truth.


Republicans stand up for all workers not just union workers. supporting business that actually create the jobs is good for all workers. Democrates appeal to unions because they reflect the socialist nature of unions. Republicans appeal to non union workers because they reflect the rugged individualism that built this country.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> Republicans stand up for all workers not just union workers. supporting business that actually create the jobs is good for all workers.


When "supporting business" means against the minimum wage, against labor protections, and for right-to-work (for less) legislation, that doesn't help workers. Businesses do not create jobs. Demand for goods and services does. Your statement is a take-off from the trickle-down theory - that helping business profit more they'll "create" more jobs, which is a fallacy. When WalMart comes to town they say they'll employ more workers - a good thing. But every job Walmart "creates" displaces 2.5 other workers, and for much less money. Then towns and main streets die.


> Democrates appeal to unions because they reflect the socialist nature of unions. Republicans appeal to non union workers because they reflect the rugged individualism that built this country.


 What built this country is unions, and the American labor movement that EMPOWERED workers, unions, and created a strong American middle class, which created consumers, which in turn fueled demand. Prior to that, all "rugged individualism" got you was a company job in a company town and a company shack and credit at the company store. "Rugged individualism" didn't get workers weekends, the 40-hour week, overtime, vacations, or fringe benefits - all that came about because large groups of workers UNITED and stood up against the few very wealthy and powerful business interests and demanded it, at great sacrafice. Right now, American corporations are enjoying the lowest tax rates in history, yet they are NOT creating jobs. But they ARE posting record breaking profits on Wall Street have have been doing so for years.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

brian john said:


> You know F B Har……..Great open shop company


I know them well ! The owner is one of the best I've ever come across


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Brian John,

You say the Unions should give the Republicans some money, "grease the palms" so to speak.

You do realize Rewire is a Republican, right?

Would you give that crazy **** sucker money?:blink:

And he is outspoken. If you read what he speaks, you understand why the younger generations think Republicans are nutbags, and say the entire party is outdated, backwards, and a little behind the educational curve.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

lefleuron said:


> Brian John,
> 
> You say the Unions should give the Republicans some money, "grease the palms" so to speak.
> 
> ...


I am not a Republican. That was the issue I had when I was in the union I did not walk lock step with the democrat party. I don't see how putting more people on food stamps is pro labor? How is raising minimum wage to 10 dollars an hour pro labor when it will cost jobs and force businesses to cut back on hours pro labor. How is giving amnesty to illegals pro labor.How is forcing someone to join a union right at any level. 

If you are not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at 40 you have no brain


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

rewire said:


> If you are not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at 40 you have no brain


And if you never dropped in at the Bay on a twenty foot day, you have no balls.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> NO BODY IN LABOR WANTS TO HEAR NUMBER ONE BUT
> 
> 1. All that money spent supporting Democrats, spread it around, big business does it they grease palms on both sides of the aisle. If the union money was spread a little to Republicans you would see some attitude changes. And if not pull the money back, all that money given to the Democrats has bought labor very little.
> 
> ...


this a good list here. anyone else have somebgoodbsolutions or ideas? 

I think the whole republican democrat thing has been beaten to a pulp and we need to find something that goes beyond politics.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Full and Part time electrical work (greater Phoenix area) 

Full time Part time work for Immediate Employment!!!Great pay!! Get on our list for daily work. This is a good opportunity for full time or fill in work during the week. Electrical Company needing Working Foremen and apprentices. Must have all hand tools, drill/ screw gun, test meter the more you got the more your worth. Must be able to show up on time each day. Must have a source of transportation and pass drug test. If this sounds like you and you are ready to start. E-mail resume for immediate employment. 

This is the crap I am talking about: "The more you have the more your worth"


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Journeyman Electrician (Service Technician) ((Phoenix/Mesa) ) 

Full Time SERVICE electrician needed to help service retail stores throughout the valley (replacing lamps and ballasts, running new power, troubleshooting issues in store, etc.). This is a clean and fast-paced job. 5 years commercial experience, and maintenance/service experience required. Please do not apply if you do not have electrical service experienc. Must pass drug test, check, and have clean MVR as you will be running your own service van. We do not offer health insurance. Please send your resume to the above address. 



Location: (Phoenix/Mesa) 
Compensation: $18+ DOE
 Here's another great one. JW for $18 and no health insurance. Hmmmm, Anybody?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> Full and Part time electrical work (greater Phoenix area)
> 
> Full time Part time work for Immediate Employment!!!Great pay!! Get on our list for daily work. This is a good opportunity for full time or fill in work during the week. Electrical Company needing Working Foremen and apprentices. Must have all hand tools, drill/ screw gun, test meter the more you got the more your worth. Must be able to show up on time each day. Must have a source of transportation and pass drug test. If this sounds like you and you are ready to start. E-mail resume for immediate employment.
> 
> This is the crap I am talking about: "The more you have the more your worth"


 I feel at this point there really is little difference in the two parties, just a matter of where they spend OUR cash.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> I feel at this point there really is little difference in the two parties, just a matter of where they spend OUR cash.


I think you are right. We need to make friends on both sides of the aisle.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Me: Saw your ad. It states the top pay for a apprentice is $17.00 an hour. Is this correct. I am currently making $18.20 hr. with 2 years and 4 months experience. 

I am confused with the top pay remarks, can you clarify.

them: Please clarify which ad, we run ads nationwide. I will then look at the ad and clarify for you.

me: nevermind. I don't feel like looking it up again. I'm pretty sure your company would not be able to afford me. 

them: Well we have apprentices earning $12/hr and some making $19.50+ benefits. It's a free country though and you can choose to work for whoever you want. I invite you to submit your resume as we hire the best possible candidates and pay top wages for the type of work involved based on your experience.

me: Thanks. I am going to probably decline on the whole resume thing. I make $18.20 an hour right now with 2 years and 4 months experience. According to what your company offers, I would probably land around $13-14 hr. Definitely can't live on that.

them: Like I said, It's a free country. We have almost 500 electricians working in AZ right so we're good as well.

me: That's good. I can safely say you get what you pay for.

them: I couldn't agree more



.......yes I had too much free time this afternoon, and just could not help searching around to see what's out there. It scares me a little. I'm grateful to be where I'm at. Still not sure about his last comment, if he really knows the problem with paying so little and was kind of agreeing without getting trouble with the company?



​


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> Me: Saw your ad. It states the top pay for a apprentice is $17.00 an hour. Is this correct. I am currently making $18.20 hr. with 2 years and 4 months experience.
> 
> I am confused with the top pay remarks, can you clarify.
> 
> ...


so are you an unemployed apprentice?


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> so are you an unemployed apprentice?


not at all, just doing research


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> not at all, just doing research


your allowed post on a forum all day at work?


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> your allowed post on a forum all day at work?


no, I have a four day weekend.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> no, I have a four day weekend.


Four day weekend is what is known as lay off


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> I feel at this point there really is little difference in the two parties, just a matter of where they spend OUR cash.


There is massive differences between them. You are just ignoring them. Blind to what you do not wish to see.

But it is okay, you are old - no need to shock your system with reality.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

rewire said:


> Four day weekend is what is known as lay off


Holidays off are what we call conditions. Maybe you non-union folks have to work or lose your job and have forgotten about holidays. The economy is improving, we will get them back for you soon enough.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> There is massive differences between them. You are just ignoring them. Blind to what you do not wish to see.
> 
> But it is okay, you are old - no need to shock your system with reality.


And unfortunately the unions will continue to lose ground. They need to try something different and my suggestion won't cost them anything, because the Dems ain't giving them anything


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> Four day weekend is what is known as lay off


not after working 13 days straight


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And unfortunately the unions will continue to lose ground. They need to try something different and my suggestion won't cost them anything, because the Dems ain't giving them anything


Your suggestion is to throw money at a party that hates workers. It is akin to hiring your ex wife to arrange your wedding reception. You could do it but you know it is gonna end up with you in misery.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

eejack said:


> Your suggestion is to throw money at a party that hates workers. It is akin to hiring your ex wife to arrange your wedding reception. You could do it but you know it is gonna end up with you in misery.


idk if you think about it more, it could sway public opinion of us in a better way. we start endorsing some of theirs that we manage to find some common ground. maybe it would help end the evil persona that they love to blanket us with blindly.....just a hypothetical here. and maybe just one of the benefits besides the obvious possibilities


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And unfortunately the unions will continue to lose ground. They need to try something different and my suggestion won't cost them anything, because the Dems ain't giving them anything


And how appropriate...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/15/autos-vw-election-idUSL2N0LJ17N20140215

"President Barack Obama on Friday waded into a high-stakes union vote at Volkswagen AG's plant in Tennessee, accusing Republican politicians who oppose unionization of being more concerned about German shareholders than U.S. workers."


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

eejack said:


> And how appropriate...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/15/autos-vw-election-idUSL2N0LJ17N20140215
> 
> "President Barack Obama on Friday waded into a high-stakes union vote at Volkswagen AG's plant in Tennessee, accusing Republican politicians who oppose unionization of being more concerned about German shareholders than U.S. workers."


I am surprised obama had the balls to call them out like that.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> idk if you think about it more, it could sway public opinion of us in a better way. we start endorsing some of theirs that we manage to find some common ground. maybe it would help end the evil persona that they love to blanket us with blindly.....just a hypothetical here. and maybe just one of the benefits besides the obvious possibilities


You are trying to be reasonable. I cannot fault you for that but in truth, there is nothing at all reasonable about the massive amount of effort businesses have gone to in order to destroy worker rights. Millions and millions spent to sway public opinion against worker rights - and it is working.

I don't know how sway public opinion to worker rights, but I do know until the republicans give up their insane anti-american stance, they have nothing to do with the answer.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> I am surprised obama had the balls to call them out like that.


When they proved that they were not going to act like adults, he started treating them like the children they really are.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

eejack said:


> You are trying to be reasonable. I cannot fault you for that but in truth, there is nothing at all reasonable about the massive amount of effort businesses have gone to in order to destroy worker rights. Millions and millions spent to sway public opinion against worker rights - and it is working.
> 
> I don't know how sway public opinion to worker rights, but I do know until the republicans give up their insane anti-american stance, they have nothing to do with the answer.


man you are speaking too much truth here. I'm going to have nightmares if I dwell on this too much. I want my kids to have a fair chance at things in the future. I really do


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

eejack said:


> And how appropriate...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/15/autos-vw-election-idUSL2N0LJ17N20140215
> 
> "President Barack Obama on Friday waded into a high-stakes union vote at Volkswagen AG's plant in Tennessee, accusing Republican politicians who oppose unionization of being more concerned about German shareholders than U.S. workers."


so the almost defunct UAW is gasping for breath and wants to send another auto maker south of the border. VW workers are currently paid more than other Tennessee auto plants represented by the UAW


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> man you are speaking too much truth here. I'm going to have nightmares if I dwell on this too much. I want my kids to have a fair chance at things in the future. I really do


the start voting republican.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> the start voting republican.


so they can be a peasant for a billionaire. no thanks


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> so they can be a peasant for a billionaire. no thanks


Keep voting democrat and the can slop from the public trough and be dependent on government to wipe their tails.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

You can choose to be thug for J.H. Blair if you want or you can join your fellow worker in arms to achieve better quality of life.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)




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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

rewire said:


> Keep voting democrat and the can slop from the public trough and be dependent on government to wipe their tails.


 No, your not a Republican!:laughing:

Did an insurance company help you out when you rolled your crappy van into the weeds?

Thats not a hand-out, you deserve it!

Unlike the people who pay into social security all their lives.

Uneducated dinosaurs, the whole lot.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> Keep voting democrat and the can slop from the public trough and be dependent on government to wipe their tails.


I used to be a republican in my teens and early youth. as thought progressed I saw things a little more clearly. cant say I am a complete democrat either, both sides are bought and paid for by big business


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


>


This is funny.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Potential11 said:


> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=">YouTube Link</a>


thats a good song, im going to have to keep it


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDOc-6hjXk">YouTube Link</a>


that is about most of the public's perception of unions. a stretch from the truth.

anyway rewire, you obviously are against unions, my question to you is: what would have to change with the ibew to get you for it?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Get rid of this would be a good start


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

I think its all about education and being informed. Nobody thinks basketball players or referee are lazy.. geez that really is elementary thinking... even pros have unions. that is why I am in a union. I am professional.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> Get rid of this would be a good start
> 
> View attachment 34143


affirmative, I can see the offence in that


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

rewire said:


> and union guys wonder why they are not thought of very highly by non union electricians


Oh yeah, I'm sure they all cry themselves to sleep at night worrying about that.:laughing:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> And how appropriate...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/15/autos-vw-election-idUSL2N0LJ17N20140215
> 
> "President Barack Obama on Friday waded into a high-stakes union vote at Volkswagen AG's plant in Tennessee, accusing Republican politicians who oppose unionization of being more concerned about German shareholders than U.S. workers."


Of course the UAW did not pad the right wallets. Same old same old. You and the unions are missing the point. It is about MONEY all ABOUT MONEY.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Oh yeah, I'm sure they all cry themselves to sleep at night worrying about that.:laughing:


Of course they do not. But if they reached out to open shop men in a friendly manner than they have in the past, they might get somewhere.

Open shop men do not have to reach out because most do not see any advantage to them as most open shop men still feel the union is closed to them.


As my grandmother use to say you get more with sugar that vinegar.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> I used to be a republican in my teens and early youth. as thought progressed I saw things a little more clearly. cant say I am a complete democrat either, both sides are bought and paid for by big business


Don't tie yourself to either party, let them earn your vote. If you walk lock step with either party as unions do with the Dems. Then that party does not have to do any thing for you because they know you are in their pocket.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Potential11 said:


> that is why I am in a union. I am professional.


So those of us that aren't in the union aren't professionals?

I have an issue with "aggressive shop flipping". I get it, the union has no work. You're losing market share and need to take the work that the non-union shops have. So instead of trying to find ways to be more competitive you just want to do a takeover of the company to get their work. 

The union isn't interested in the men, you have too many men on the books as it is. All they want is the work. So you salt the shop to try and convince these guys how much better off they'll be in the union, then once they vote and "flip" the shop they get in and they're treated like second class citizens because they organized in and didn't go through the apprenticeship. Any of the men that are worth anything realize that they are sick of the harassment, were better off non-union, and leave the IBEW, but the damage has already been done because the shop is now union. So they'll have the work untill the business closes up shop and then the union will just move on to the next company on the list. What the union fails to recognize is that this does more harm than good to their cause. It creates more enemy's than friends. Instead of bringing the industry together (the IBEW's supposed goal) it actually drives a bigger wedge between the union and non-union .

Salting, PLA's, card check, etc. are about the lowest, dirtiest, scumbag policies the union employs. If a business owner wants to be union, he'll come in and sign the paperwork. PLA's limit competition (which is about the only way the union can survive). If an electrician wants to join the union, he'll come to the hall and sign up. Leave the rest of us alone. I'm not buying what you're selling, so go away.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> So those of us that aren't in the union aren't professionals?


Exactly.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hack Work said:


> Exactly.





I get paid pretty well for an amateur then I guess.

Plus, while the "professionals" are sitting home on unemployment, we're taking all their work. So it's not all bad.:thumbup:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Of course the UAW did not pad the right wallets. Same old same old. You and the unions are missing the point. It is about MONEY all ABOUT MONEY.


You are right. All the republicans are so bought off by big business ( *basically your words ) that the vote failed.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0215/Tenn.-auto-workers-vote-against-union



> In Chattanooga, the union faced stern opposition from Republican politicians who warned that a UAW victory would chase away other automakers who might come to the region.
> Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee was the most vocal opponent, saying that he was told that VW would soon announce plans to build a new SUV in Chattanooga if workers rejected the union. That was later denied by a VW executive, who said the union vote had no bearing on expansion decisions. Other state politicians threatened to cut off state incentives for the plant to expand if the union was approved.
> After 53 percent of the workers voted against his union, King said he was outraged at what he called "outside interference" in the election. He wouldn't rule out challenging the outcome with the National Labor Relations Board.
> "It's never happened in this country before that the U.S. senator, the governor, the leader of the House, the legislature here, threatened the company with no incentives, threatened workers with a loss of product," King said. "We'll look at all our options in the next few days."


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> I get paid pretty well for an amateur then I guess.


 You should be in prison for robbing your employer.



> Plus, while the "professionals" are sitting home on unemployment, we're taking all their work. So it's not all bad.:thumbup:


This line gets sillier every time that I read it. In 15 years of working as a union electrician, I never had more than 2 weeks off. Sure, my local has 300+ guys out of work, but there are 3,700 guys working, most of which work all year. 

It's easy to track the unemployment rate of union electrician, you can go to the local's website and see how many members are on the list and compare it to the total membership. On the other hand, it's extremely hard to track the unemployment rate of non-union electrician. When they get laid off, they go back to sweeping floors and jizz-mopping local peep shows. So no one has a true count of the unemployment rate of non-union electricians. I'd say it's probably about the same as union electrician, which makes the whole "_union electrician sit the bench!_" argument pretty gay.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Some of you guys just don't get it. While you're busy bickering back and forth and finger pointing, our trade continues to get fragmented by foreign workers and governments intent on reducing our scope of work. Fighting over your piece of the pie while the size of the pie is diminishing is ridiculous. If you do not understand this you are lost, whether you are non-union or not.

There will always be unscrupulous contractors. They have been around since Franklin flew his kite. That will never change. They are not our real enemy, they are just a fact of life.

Look at the big picture, dudes. Protect our trade first.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hack Work said:


> You should be in prison for robbing your employer.


Pretty weak. Go troll somebody else, you're barking up the wrong tree.


> This line gets sillier every time that I read it. In 15 years of working as a union electrician, I never had more than 2 weeks off. Sure, my local has 300+ guys out of work, but there are 3,700 guys working, most of which work all year.
> 
> It's easy to track the unemployment rate of union electrician, you can go to the local's website and see how many members are on the list and compare it to the total membership. On the other hand, it's extremely hard to track the unemployment rate of non-union electrician. When they get laid off, they go back to sweeping floors and jizz-mopping local peep shows. So no one has a true count of the unemployment rate of non-union electricians. I'd say it's probably about the same as union electrician, which makes the whole "_union electrician sit the bench!_" argument pretty gay.


In 15 years working as a non-union electrician, I was laid off once when the company I was working for closed their doors. I was out of work for 2 days. 

It's my understanding that union members are supposed to be a "brotherhood" and share the pain. If you've been in the union for 15 years and never had an extended lay off, you must be a ball washer. I'm sure your union "brothers" appreciate your me first attitude. That seems to fly in the face of everything the union stands for.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> Pretty weak. Go troll somebody else, you're barking up the wrong tree.


Ruff :laughing: 



> In 15 years working as a non-union electrician, I was laid off once when the company I was working for closed their doors. I was out of work for 2 days.
> 
> It's my understanding that union members are supposed to be a "brotherhood" and share the pain. If you've been in the union for 15 years and never had an extended lay off, you must be a ball washer.


Ok, so let me get this straight. If a non-union electrician works solid, he's just a normal guy. But if a union electrician works solid, he is a "ball washer"? :thumbup::thumbup:

Like I said, you ignoramuses don't have a clue about the real world, you just spew misinformation and stereotypes. Hell, if you look up to your earlier post you'll see an entire paragraphing describing how it is for an organized worker, when in reality you are just parroting things that you've heard. You've never been in that position and you are just posting gossip.



> I'm sure your union "brothers" appreciate your me first attitude. That seems to fly in the face of everything the union stands for.


Like I said earlier, there are a little over 300 men in my local out of work while we have a total over over 4,000 men. Most men are working full year, so that blows your entire argument out of the water. 

:thumbup:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hack Work said:


> Ok, so let me get this straight. If a non-union electrician works solid, he's just a normal guy. But if a union electrician works solid, he is a "ball washer"?


Yes.

The union is supposed to be a "brotherhood", which it isn't. You guys for the most part are a bunch of hypocrites who preach "brotherhood", but when push comes to shove you are only concerned about yourselves just like the rest of us. I don't blame you for that by the way, just cut the bullsh!t and be honest about it.

It's no secret that in the non-union world it is everyman for himself. That's precisely why I work non-union. The strong survive while the weak get laid off constantly, often moving from company to company. It's not hard to figure out if the new guy is any good before he even picks up a tool. If he's been in the trade for 15 years and only worked for 2 or 3 companies he's probably alright. If he's been in the trade for 10 years and worked for a dozen companies, most likely he's gonna be useless. I work for one reason, I have bills to pay and a family to feed. Sure some of the guys I work with are nice guys, but at the end of the day it's me versus them and my bills are more important to me than theirs. At least we're honest about it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hax, this is the weakest trolling you've done in a long time now.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

MTW said:


> Hax, this is the weakest trolling you've done in a long time now.


Is it not working?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Is it not working?


:thumbup::laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

rewire said:


> Get rid of this would be a good start
> 
> View attachment 34143


That didn't happen. Brother Noah said so. :laughing:


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Of course the UAW did not pad the right wallets. Same old same old. You and the unions are missing the point. It is about MONEY all ABOUT MONEY.


I know what ur saying Brian, kinda we'll scratch your back but scratch ours.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I get paid pretty well for an amateur then I guess.
> 
> Plus, while the "professionals" are sitting home on unemployment, we're taking all their work. So it's not all bad.:thumbup:


How much did you make a last year? How many vacation checks did u get last year?
How much do u have in your annuity? In your pension? How many pensions do u have? Do u have medical insurance? What are your medical co pays?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

*Union Bullies Workers Exercising Their Rights *

*List with names of people who opted out of the union distributed to try to intimidate ex-members*



Why do unions resort to this?


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> I get paid pretty well for an amateur then I guess.
> 
> Plus, while the "professionals" are sitting home on unemployment, we're taking all their work. So it's not all bad.:thumbup:



*Anti Union Card* Nov 06, 2012 
I am opposed to all unions. Therefore, I am opposed to ALL benefits that unions have won through the years; 40-hour work-week, time-and-a-half for overtime, double-time on holidays, weekends, sick leave, child labor restrictions, wage increases, workplace safety standards, pensions, employer-paid insurance plans, unemployment benefits, job security, and legal representation for wrongful termination.
I hereby refuse to accept any benefits that have been or ever will be won by unions and also hereby authorize and direct the Company to withhold the amount of Union-won benefits from my paycheck.
Signed__________________________________ Date_________________________


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> *Anti Union Card* Nov 06, 2012
> I am opposed to all unions. Therefore, I am opposed to ALL benefits that unions have won through the years; 40-hour work-week, time-and-a-half for overtime, double-time on holidays, weekends, sick leave, child labor restrictions, wage increases, workplace safety standards, pensions, employer-paid insurance plans, unemployment benefits, job security, and legal representation for wrongful termination.
> I hereby refuse to accept any benefits that have been or ever will be won by unions and also hereby authorize and direct the Company to withhold the amount of Union-won benefits from my paycheck.
> Signed__________________________________ Date_________________________


Your issue really isn't union/non-union. Your issue is that you're just an angry person and venting on open shops is a convenient outlet. If it wasn't this issue, you would find some other crusade to rage over.

People like you are of no benefit to our trade.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> *Anti Union Card* Nov 06, 2012
> I am opposed to all unions. Therefore, I am opposed to ALL benefits that unions have won through the years; 40-hour work-week, time-and-a-half for overtime, double-time on holidays, weekends, sick leave, child labor restrictions, wage increases, workplace safety standards, pensions, employer-paid insurance plans, unemployment benefits, job security, and legal representation for wrongful termination.
> I hereby refuse to accept any benefits that have been or ever will be won by unions and also hereby authorize and direct the Company to withhold the amount of Union-won benefits from my paycheck.
> Signed__________________________________ Date_________________________


unions always claim the 40 hour workweek as theirs when in reality the 40 hour week was the product of Henry Ford who understood that productivity decreased as hours increased.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

fistofbolts said:


> *Anti Union Card* Nov 06, 2012
> I am opposed to all unions. Therefore, I am opposed to ALL benefits that unions have won through the years; 40-hour work-week, time-and-a-half for overtime, double-time on holidays, weekends, sick leave, child labor restrictions, wage increases, workplace safety standards, pensions, employer-paid insurance plans, unemployment benefits, job security, and legal representation for wrongful termination.
> I hereby refuse to accept any benefits that have been or ever will be won by unions and also hereby authorize and direct the Company to withhold the amount of Union-won benefits from my paycheck.
> Signed__________________________________ Date_________________________


 Remove all the unions and union shops. Watch your wages go crashing down to walmart levels. With Big business unchecked, it will happen. It already has before. Who would save you, the government.......lol. 

That's fine if you disagree with union tactics and what they have done or are doing. The bottom line is that non-union guys who do happen to be paid well now are only getting that because of the union wages that hold it up.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> Your issue really isn't union/non-union. Your issue is that you're just an angry person and venting on open shops is a convenient outlet. If it wasn't this issue, you would find some other crusade to rage over.
> 
> People like you are of no benefit to our trade.


wow, I'm not angry at all really. I don't have anything against fellow electricians. Really just want to help all of us out in the long run. 

go piss in someone elses cheerios.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


> unions always claim the 40 hour workweek as theirs when in reality the 40 hour week was the product of Henry Ford who understood that productivity decreased as hours increased.


Rewire with all due respect do some thinking and reading, if u believe this you also believe social security is out of money and its doomed. Its doomed because Rebublicans like the bushes have borrowed from it and never were able to put money back into it funding outrageous wars and adding loss to this country not adding value to it.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> unions always claim the 40 hour workweek as theirs when in reality the 40 hour week was the product of Henry Ford who understood that productivity decreased as hours increased.


c'mon do you really think henry ford gave a crap about workers?


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> Rewire with all due respect do some thinking and reading, if u believe this you also believe social security is out of money and its doomed. Its doomed because Rebublicans like the bushes have borrowed from it and never were able to put money back into it funding outrageous wars and adding loss to this country not adding value to it.


The most essential thing to know about the 40-hour work-week is that, while it was the unions that pushed it, business leaders ultimately went along with it because their own data convinced them this was a solid, hard-nosed business decision.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> c'mon do you really think henry ford gave a crap about workers?


he cared about his business and he understood that workers were a part of that business. He was strongly anti union because he opposed socialism.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> Me: Saw your ad. It states the top pay for a apprentice is $17.00 an hour. Is this correct. I am currently making $18.20 hr. with 2 years and 4 months experience.
> 
> I am confused with the top pay remarks, can you clarify.
> 
> ...


With 500 employees, how are they getting away with not offering health insurance?


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> Remove all the unions and union shops. Watch your wages go crashing down to walmart levels. With Big business unchecked, it will happen. It already has before. Who would save you, the government.......lol.
> 
> That's fine if you disagree with union tactics and what they have done or are doing. The bottom line is that non-union guys who do happen to be paid well now are only getting that because of the union wages that hold it up.


 You do know that unions only account for 11% of the work force. 
Unions no longer set the standard for wages employers know that to get the best you must offer the best pay they also know that not every electrician is worth the same amount. The idea that wages would crash is just not supported in reality. States that heve inacted Right to work do show a drop in wages compared to non right to work states but it is only about 3% not a crash by any standard considering dues paid to unions quickly cover that 3%.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

I liked it back when rewire used to rant and rave about how great the union is.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> wow, I'm not angry at all really. I don't have anything against fellow electricians. Really just want to help all of us out in the long run.
> 
> go piss in someone elses cheerios.


Sorry, but we don't need help from an apprentice with big balls and no brains.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> You do know that unions only account for 11% of the work force.
> Unions no longer set the standard for wages employers know that to get the best you must offer the best pay they also know that not every electrician is worth the same amount. The idea that wages would crash is just not supported in reality. States that heve inacted Right to work do show a drop in wages compared to non right to work states but it is only about 3% not a crash by any standard considering dues paid to unions quickly cover that 3%.


You don't need a 50% share to set the standard. If non-union shops paid their good men too far below union scale, there would be an outcry. As long as they stay within range they get away with it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> Get rid of this would be a good start
> 
> View attachment 34143


 Get rid of free speech? Get rid of the right to protest? What are you a commie?


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> I liked it back when rewire used to rant and rave about how great the union is.


I liked it when you were not here


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

99cents said:


> Sorry, but we don't need help from an apprentice with big balls and no brains.


 I'm not going to bother shouting attacks at you. 
You don't like me oh well that's your problem.


----------



## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

rewire said:


> I liked it when you were not here


Did you really??


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Get rid of free speech? Get rid of the right to protest? What are you a commie?


Unions are free to look as stupid as they want ,say stupid things and protest like cry babies. 

If they want people to rally to their cause then they might want to change their approach. Their choice of course.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Did you really??


no personal attacks ,no name calling, no lies being posted ,debates about the issue not the individual.


----------



## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

rewire said:


> no personal attacks ,no name calling, no lies being posted ,debates about the issue not the individual.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> unions always claim the 40 hour workweek as theirs when in reality the 40 hour week was the product of Henry Ford who understood that productivity decreased as hours increased.


 Henry Ford did not lobby congress to mandate overtime after 40 hours. Unions did.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> the apprenticeship is life consuming.


This confuses me, how is it life consuming? In Canada, the union and non union electricians all go to school together, my apprenticeship was not life consuming, I went to work for 8 hours a day until I reached my hours, then went to school for 10 weeks.


----------



## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rochsolid said:


> This confuses me, how is it life consuming? In Canada, the union and non union electricians all go to school together, my apprenticeship was not life consuming, I went to work for 8 hours a day until I reached my hours, then went to school for 10 weeks.


So y be union if u go to school with non union?

I'm sure they tell u how great it is to he non union.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Henry Ford did not lobby congress to mandate overtime after 40 hours. Unions did.


the unions did help workers in the 1930s


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> So y be union if u go to school with non union?
> 
> I'm sure they tell u how great it is to he non union.


I am non union, and it is great


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Rochsolid said:


> I am non union, and it is great


I et you are knowledgeable about your trade and can perform the tasks also.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Rochsolid said:


> This confuses me, how is it life consuming? In Canada, the union and non union electricians all go to school together, my apprenticeship was not life consuming, I went to work for 8 hours a day until I reached my hours, then went to school for 10 weeks.


in az, we go to school 2 nights a week after work, plus a few nights of labs a month. Add overtime to work, figure in homework, and it is extremely life consuming. 

Really different ways there.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

rewire said:


> I et you are knowledgeable about your trade and can perform the tasks also.


I like to think so. The only reason that I would join the IBEW (I think it's local 2085) would be because of the pension. And I sincerely thought about it 2 years ago, I just finished 4th level, met with the Union rep, but decided last minute to stay where I am. IMO in my city, there is no benefit (for myself) to join the union, but with that said, I'm lucky enough to work for a company that treats is great. Pays us great, has a wonderful benefit package for myself my wife and son, and RRSP contributions. But if I wasn't offered all of the above, I would definitely consider the union.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> in az, we go to school 2 nights a week after work, plus a few nights of labs a month. Add overtime to work, figure in homework, and it is extremely life consuming.
> 
> Really different ways there.


Ok, ya that is defiantly more time consuming then how we do it in the great white north, thanks for the response


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Rochsolid said:


> I like to think so. The only reason that I would join the IBEW (I think it's local 2085) would be because of the pension. And I sincerely thought about it 2 years ago, I just finished 4th level, met with the Union rep, but decided last minute to stay where I am. IMO in my city, there is no benefit (for myself) to join the union, but with that said, I'm lucky enough to work for a company that treats is great. Pays us great, has a wonderful benefit package for myself my wife and son, and RRSP contributions. But if I wasn't offered all of the above, I would definitely consider the union.


So do you have one more year left then? We have 5 years to do here.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> So y be union if u go to school with non union?
> .


Because we're like any other normal human being and get up in the morning, sh!t, shower and shave, go to work and don't obsess over controlling other people.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> So y be union if u go to school with non union?
> 
> I'm sure they tell u how great it is to he non union.


No, they teach us code, lab and things that pertain to our trade.

Why are you union dudes so paranoid?


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

fistofbolts said:


> in az, we go to school 2 nights a week after work, plus a few nights of labs a month. Add overtime to work, figure in homework, and it is extremely life consuming. Really different ways there.


Ontario has two options available to apprentices. Block or day release. 

Apprenticeship consists of 9000hrs of workplace training that has to be signed off by the ministry and 28 weeks of in class training. Code, theory, labs, etc. 

Apprentices can chose between 

a block release for trade school (10 weeks after 1-2 years, 10 weeks after 3-4 years and the final 8 week installment around the completion of their 5th year). 

Or a day release for the same sessions. Difference is that apprentices spend 1 day a week for 10 weeks instead of being laid off for the block. 

All tradeschool is the same for union & non union apprentices and all licenses are the same once the apprenticeship is complete.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> You do know that unions only account for 11% of the work force.
> Unions no longer set the standard for wages employers know that to get the best you must offer the best pay they also know that not every electrician is worth the same amount.


An electrician is either an electrician or he isn't. This is like saying one heart surgeon should be paid more than another because his surgeries take less time. No 2 human beings are exactly equal, this is a fact. But the idea that an employer gets the final say to determine what the exact fair amount is is folly. They are more driven towards underpaying in order to exploit and profit more than to pay fairly. You cannot deny that is a common tactic. As proof of this, how common is it for a new nonunion hire to be offered a rate before you even really know how well he does, or doesn't work? Often, what you're gonna pay a new hand is already decided before you even know who it's going to be so, knock off the merit pay crap because anyone who engages in a bit of critical thinking knows better. In a nonunion shop, it's more likely the guy hired when capable new hires weren't easy to get, and happened to be a good negotiator, would be paid more than a new hire who came on board during a period when there was a pile of applications on your desk, regardless of actual work output or efficiency in the field. 

Further, the very scheme of paying better, faster, smarter electricians more simply pits one employee against each other, each one being enticed to produce more and out-do the next guy, (and not tell them anything you know that they don't, to help ensure your own tenure) always reaching for a carrot on a stick that comes with no guarantee they'll ever get close enough to reach. 

Further, pay rates and raises are not only dependent on a reality that you are able to give them, but also requires you to be willing to give them. It's that willingness to pay a little more, and therefore you pocketing less, that's the major difference between nonunion's arbitrarily set pay rates and union set mandated pay rates. And although there are exceptions, there aren't enough exceptions show that nonunion pay rates are lower.

Further, nonunion electricians with fringes have those fringes deducted from their pay. Our's are in addition to, so even if both the union and nonunion guy are making equal pay on the check, the nonunion guy is not only getting deductions for his medical, but also has no pension.


> The idea that wages would crash is just not supported in reality.


Sure it is. Denial is not a river in Egypt. Why do you think CAT wanted to switch it's government contract from Washington to RTW South Carolina? Why do you think Scott Walker busted the municipal unions? Yo increase wages?


> States that have enacted Right to work do show a drop in wages compared to non right to work states but it is only about 3% not a crash by any standard considering dues paid to unions quickly cover that 3%.


Considering the wage different between union and nonunion is already more than 50%, I think you're smoking something.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Thomps said:


> Ontario has two options available to apprentices. Block or day release.
> 
> Apprenticeship consists of 9000hrs of workplace training that has to be signed off by the ministry and 28 weeks of in class training. Code, theory, labs, etc.
> 
> ...


I like that setup. I would have gone for the block release. That is a sweet deal. Do you guys collect unemployment for that time?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

VW workers reject the UAW unionizing effort in a 712 tom 626 vote.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

rewire said:


> VW workers reject the UAW unionizing effort in a 712 tom 626 vote.


Another step in the right direction :thumbsup:


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

fistofbolts said:


> So do you have one more year left then? We have 5 years to do here.


No, I'm done. It is a 4 year apprenticeship. I collected EI while in school for the 10 weeks, my tuition was paid for by the govt. roughly 3500$ a level. We got incentive grants, 1000$ after 1st and 2nd level, nothing after 3rd level and 2000$ after completing, and passing the interprovincial red seal exam, which gives me my license


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> I'm not going to bother shouting attacks at you.
> You don't like me oh well that's your problem.


Fist when you first posted this thread I thought on no another us them, hence my harsh words early on. Then I was almost at the point where I felt I owe you an apology as this thread WAS going quite well, but alas it has gone or is heading exactly where I thought it would go. US VS THEM and the us and them are interchangeable.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rochsolid said:


> I am non union, and it is great



good for you..

I'm union and still love it. 

I see you can't contribute to this post then and please excuse yourself. 

Thank you Rochsolid.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Because we're like any other normal human being and get up in the morning, sh!t, shower and shave, go to work and don't obsess over controlling other people.



so you are not union?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> Considering the wage different between union and nonunion is already more than 50%, I think you're smoking something.


I would like to see some real substantiation on this little tidbit. Is this what the union tells you?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> so you are not union?


No but I served most of my apprenticeship union. I have no issues either way. I just have issues with extremists either way.

As a partner in a small shop, we will make a decision at the appropriate time. That will be when we take on employees.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

fistofbolts said:


> I like that setup. I would have gone for the block release. That is a sweet deal. Do you guys collect unemployment for that time?



Most prefer the block release. 

Apprentices apply for EI once they register for tradeschool.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

brian john said:


> Fist when you first posted this thread I thought on no another us them, hence my harsh words early on. Then I was almost at the point where I felt I owe you an apology as this thread WAS going quite well, but alas it has gone or is heading exactly where I thought it would go. US VS THEM and the us and them are interchangeable.



Brian, I like you point of view. I do believe that it is fact that each has an agenda, business and labor, NECA and IBEW. and when each can look out for their fellow brother we can have a better environment. 

We can just share our experiences and hope that others would want a better way of life. That is why so many immigrants/refugees still flock to the U.S. because they hear this is ( some can say it was ) the land of opportunity. 

In my experience I am glad and grateful and feel privileged to have been accepted into the IBEW and learn from the NECA contractors who have been in my shoes. I also have met many guys who have come from the non-union side who have done ABC program ( defectors from IBEW ) AND love being union. Well the love the pay I don't think they love the union as much. 

Like I said before, education is the key. Alot of people just aren't educated and don't want to be. They forget where they come from and lose sight of where they are going.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> An electrician is either an electrician or he isn't. This is like saying one heart surgeon should be paid more than another because his surgeries take less time. No 2 human beings are exactly equal, this is a fact.


 exactly not all workers perform at the same level and compensation should be based on merit.


> But the idea that an employer gets the final say to determine what the exact fair amount is is folly.


 so an employer should not be the one making decisions that affect hos business?


> They are more driven towards underpaying in order to exploit and profit more than to pay fairly. You cannot deny that is a common tactic


 most business is motivated by profit and you may find some who believe low wages are the answer it is by no means the norm.


> . As proof of this, how common is it for a new nonunion hire to be offered a rate before you even really know how well he does, or doesn't work?


 this is standard for both union and non union


> Often, what you're gonna pay a new hand is already decided before you even know who it's going to be so, knock off the merit pay crap because anyone who engages in a bit of critical thinking knows better.


 I have a pay rate based on the skill level I am looking for and when I find the candidate that posses that skill level they are given the offer


> In a nonunion shop, it's more likely the guy hired when capable new hires weren't easy to get, and happened to be a good negotiator, would be paid more than a new hire who came on board during a period when there was a pile of applications on your desk, regardless of actual work output or efficiency in the field.


 you don't really understand how business works do you I hire the employee who will best fit the needs of my business.


> Further, the very scheme of paying better, faster, smarter electricians more simply pits one employee against each other, each one being enticed to produce more and out-do the next guy,


 and this is a bad thing why?? pay based on merit will bring the out the best.


> (and not tell them anything you know that they don't, to help ensure your own tenure) always reaching for a carrot on a stick that comes with no guarantee they'll ever get close enough to reach.


 once again you swallowed the koolaide. I want top hands as they produce top revenue



> Further, pay rates and raises are not only dependent on a reality that you are able to give them, but also requires you to be willing to give them.


 raises are based on profitability of the business if I make money you make money


> It's that willingness to pay a little more, and therefore you pocketing less, that's the major difference between nonunion's arbitrarily set pay rates and union set mandated pay rates.


 mandated pay rates do not take into account the economics of a business . flexibility is no longer there when a downturn comes. forcing the only option of lay offs.


> And although there are exceptions, there aren't enough exceptions show that nonunion pay rates are lower.


 I will agree that on average pay is lower simply because you are dealing with 89% of the workorce being non union.



> Further, nonunion electricians with fringes have those fringes deducted from their pay. Our's are in addition to, so even if both the union and nonunion guy are making equal pay on the check, the nonunion guy is not only getting deductions for his medical, but also has no pension.


 it comes out of your pay also, when you get a 3% COL increase part of it goes to benefits and part on the check. More non union employees are getting benefits than ever before I actually give more paid holidays than the union. 



















> Sure it is. Denial is not a river in Egypt. Why do you think CAT wanted to switch it's government contract from Washington to RTW South Carolina? Why do you think Scott Walker busted the municipal unions? Yo increase wages?


flexibility in a changing economy


> Considering the wage different between union and nonunion is already more than 50%, I think you're smoking something.


 The auto workers in the VW plant are making more than their UAW represented counter parts in other Tennessee auto plants. so your 50% claim is not supported.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> IslandGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Considering the wage different between union and nonunion is already more than 50%, I think you're smoking something.
> ...


Any of the electrical unions in my state pay JW's about $50/hr in the envelope with another $25-30/hr for benefits and retirement.

A non-union JW in my state could make anywhere from $40/hr with benefits down to $12/hr without benefits.

FWIW, I was just looking at some help wanted ads for a service electrician to run a service vehicle (which usual requires more experience than a typical JW) that were paying $18-22/hr. I will very rarely (if ever) see any company offering $30 or more per hour.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> No but I served most of my apprenticeship union. I have no issues either way. I just have issues with extremists either way.
> 
> As a partner in a small shop, we will make a decision at the appropriate time. That will be when we take on employees.



Please share your apprenticeship union experience.

How did you go union apprentice to non-union?

What do you consider extremist?


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> good for you..
> 
> I'm union and still love it.
> 
> ...


I've been contributing fine, you suggested that since union and
Non union ELECTRICIANS go to school together what is the point if being union, and I informed you that I was non union


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Thomps said:


> Most prefer the block release. Apprentices apply for EI once they register for tradeschool.


I did block for the first two rounds and day release for the last. Day release was ok, but took 9 months to get through it. Was a long haul. It's ok if you can get through a whole week between classes. Many in my class had a lot of difficulty. If I had to do it over again, block is the way to go.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I would like to see some real substantiation on this little tidbit. Is this what the union tells you?


 Our scale is $54.00 an hour. Nonunion electricians here are lucky to see $25.00 an hour, that's no benefits, and they'd have to be the top guy running a bunch of uneducated day laborers.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> good for you..
> 
> I'm union and still love it.
> 
> ...


WW this is beyond comment


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

brian john said:


> Fist when you first posted this thread I thought on no another us them, hence my harsh words early on. Then I was almost at the point where I felt I owe you an apology as this thread WAS going quite well, but alas it has gone or is heading exactly where I thought it would go. US VS THEM and the us and them are interchangeable.


yeah, you are very right. This mentality is going nowhere fast.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Rochsolid said:


> No, I'm done. It is a 4 year apprenticeship. I collected EI while in school for the 10 weeks, my tuition was paid for by the govt. roughly 3500$ a level. We got incentive grants, 1000$ after 1st and 2nd level, nothing after 3rd level and 2000$ after completing, and passing the interprovincial red seal exam, which gives me my license


You make me feel like a scumbag with the comparison to our program, lol. Hell of a deal they give you guys. I can imagine the competition to get into that program. Hard to believe I was lucky enough to beat out hundreds trying to get my spot, I would guess you had to beat a thousand.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rochsolid said:


> I've been contributing fine, you *suggested* that since union and
> Non union ELECTRICIANS go to school together what is the point if being union, and I informed you that I was non union


I asked not suggested. 

In the statement of union and non union doing apprenticeship I envision them in class together with the same instructor. Taking breaks together, and having camaraderie. Sharing work experience and so on. 

If I was in that position I would envision myself wanting to be union for the fact if I was non union I would be paid $10-13 per hour as a non union apprentice and no benefits. I would want the benies and retirement to start. I would like to have a $5.00 copay and be paid $15.00 to start. 

Here we have our own apprenticeship. Its union. The instructors are union. Instructors who have traveled the U.S.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

IslandGuy said:


> Our scale is $54.00 an hour. Nonunion electricians here are lucky to see $25.00 an hour, that's no benefits, and they'd have to be the top guy running a bunch of uneducated day laborers.


 this is the dumbest **** ive read today


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

The thread is aggressive shop flopping... it was intended to *constructively *share ideas on how to educate the uneducated to organize in. 

Obviously, some of you non union guys are already educated on how things are ran and don't need it. 

I'm sure grateful I didn't run into you guys early on.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Potential11 said:


> Please share your apprenticeship union experience.
> 
> How did you go union apprentice to non-union?
> 
> What do you consider extremist?




I started out non-union residential. I then worked for a small commercial shop who was union. He was allowed to hand pick his first employee so that's how I got into the hall. I finished up my apprenticeship industrial. I left the trade when the economy went for a crap and made my money selling electrical supplies. When I decided to go back on the tools I went non-union because I was doing my own contracting.

Extremist is anybody who blindly follows ideology without thinking for himself.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Any of the electrical unions in my state pay JW's about $50/hr in the envelope with another $25-30/hr for benefits and retirement.
> 
> A non-union JW in my state could make anywhere from $40/hr with benefits down to $12/hr without benefits.
> 
> FWIW, I was just looking at some help wanted ads for a service electrician to run a service vehicle (which usual requires more experience than a typical JW) that were paying $18-22/hr. I will very rarely (if ever) see any company offering $30 or more per hour.


our local has a residential scale that can be used for service also.It is lower than the 30.00/hr A wiremen get.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Potential11 said:


> I asked not suggested.
> 
> In the statement of union and non union doing apprenticeship I envision them in class together with the same instructor. Taking breaks together, and having camaraderie. Sharing work experience and so on.
> 
> ...



Imagine non-union paying what union scale is. Whoa!!! Demise of the union. You won.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


> our local has a residential scale that can be used for service also.It is lower than the 30.00/hr A wiremen get.



Your local? 

Are you union? 

What union local is this? 

Your local what?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> Our scale is $54.00 an hour. Nonunion electricians here are lucky to see $25.00 an hour, that's no benefits, and they'd have to be the top guy running a bunch of uneducated day laborers.


You honestly believe that don't you?:laughing:


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Potential11 said:


> Imagine non-union paying what union scale is. Whoa!!! Demise of the union. You won.


Must be the end of the world. I'm non-union and my pay rate is at par or above what union rates are. Benefits my not be quite at par but. I work 49 weeks a year.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> I started out non-union residential. I then worked for a small commercial shop who was union. He was allowed to hand pick his first employee so that's how I got into the hall. I finished up my apprenticeship industrial. I left the trade when the economy went for a crap and made my money selling electrical supplies. When I decided to go back on the tools I went non-union because I was doing my own contracting.
> 
> Extremist is anybody who blindly follows ideology without thinking for himself.


Well, I hope it helped you. Obviously it did with the training you received. I hope your business succeeds. I think alot of people lost their jobs when the economy took a dump. Now that you have your business remember the little guys who are in your old seat wanting the same thing you wanted: a good job with good wages to live and retire with dignity and respect. 

Good luck to you and thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> You honestly believe that don't you?:laughing:


 hes trolling and he knows it. Cause if he wasnt, then a bunch of "day laborers" are invading "his" market and doing the jobs local 3 had control over forever.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> The thread is aggressive shop flopping... it was intended to *constructively *share ideas on how to educate the uneducated to organize in.
> 
> Obviously, some of you non union guys are already educated on how things are ran and don't need it.
> 
> I'm sure grateful I didn't run into you guys early on.


It would be a safe bet that the biggest issue that the non union guys have with the union is the attitude of the union members that they are better because they are union. Don't talk down to the non union guy and don't act like you are doing him a favor by talking to him. Don't forget you also need to let him know not just how he will benefit but be able to explain how it will benefit the guy he works for.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Tsmil said:


> Must be the end of the world. I'm non-union and my pay rate is at par or above what union rates are. Benefits my not be quite at par but. I work 49 weeks a year.


If you don't mind me asking, what was your gross wages last year?


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> You honestly believe that don't you?:laughing:


Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I think it would be very hard to find non-union electrician in his part of NY or neighboring areas like NJ that make half of what the union electrician make when considering wage, benefits, and pensions.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Potential11 said:


> Your local?
> 
> Are you union?
> 
> ...


it s the IBEW local for this area w have I think 5 in our state I was a member but no longer


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

rewire said:


> It would be a safe bet that the biggest issue that the non union guys have with the union is the attitude of the union members that they are better because they are union. Don't talk down to the non union guy and don't act like you are doing him a favor by talking to him.


That works both ways. Take a look at what the non-union guys always have to say. For example, a short while ago EBFD6 was stereotyping all union members as hypocrites and low lives who walk all over their brothers and he also called anyone who works solid in the union a ball washer.

The insults always go both ways yet it's always the non-union side crying how bad their feelings have been hurt.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

rewire said:


> It would be a safe bet that the biggest issue that the non union guys have with the union is the attitude of the union members that they are better because they are union. Don't talk down to the non union guy and don't act like you are doing him a favor by talking to him. Don't forget you also need to let him know not just how he will benefit but be able to explain how it will benefit the guy he works for.


great post, :thumbsup:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Hack Work said:


> That works both ways. Take a look at what the non-union guys always have to say. For example, a short while ago EBFD6 was stereotyping all union members and hypocrites and low lives who walk all over their brothers and called anyone who works solid in the union a ball washer. The insults always go both ways yet it's always the non-union side crying how bad their feelings have been hurt.


Why don't you work out of your local anymore? Was it a shortage of work thing? Are you making more money now doing your own resi service gig? Just curious


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
> 
> I think it would be very hard to find non-union electrician in his part of NY or neighboring areas like NJ that make half of what the union electrician make when considering wage, benefits, and pensions.


Haxer, what you don't take into account is the two years off they had not to long ago. If I had a family that I really cared about no way I would take a union job with NO security. I would (and have) work for a company that cared about me and I cared about the company.
I am going to leave for around 3 weeks in a couple days. Would I do that with union guys working for me. HELL no. 
My guys care about my company and I trust them with it.Now if I ever decided I wanted to do big jobs maybe, but I really doubt it. The union mentality of entitlement has really soured me on the union.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> That works both ways. Take a look at what the non-union guys always have to say. For example, a short while ago EBFD6 was stereotyping all union members as hypocrites and low lives who walk all over their brothers and he also called anyone who works solid in the union a ball washer.
> 
> The insults always go both ways yet it's always the non-union side crying how bad their feelings have been hurt.


if the non union guy was the one truing to convince the union guy to jump ship you might have a point.


----------



## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Haxer, what you don't take into account is the two years off they had not to long ago.


 Who had off? Now you're sounding like those other guys who don't have a clue what they are talking about and ignorantly think all union members sit the bench.



> If I had a family that I really cared about no way I would take a union job with NO security. I would (and have) work for a company that cared about me and I cared about the company.
> I am going to leave for around 3 weeks in a couple days. Would I do that with union guys working for me. HELL no.
> My guys care about my company and I trust them with it.Now if I ever decided I wanted to do big jobs maybe, but I really doubt it. The union mentality of entitlement has really soured me on the union.


What does this have to do with the topic you brought up? We were talking about how you didn't believe that non-union guys can often make less than half of what union guys make. 

All you want to do is rant again the union.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

rewire said:


> It would be a safe bet that the biggest issue that the non union guys have with the union is the attitude of the union members that they are better because they are union. Don't talk down to the non union guy and don't act like you are doing him a favor by talking to him. Don't forget you also need to let him know not just how he will benefit but be able to explain how it will benefit the guy he works for.


I see your point. It can come off that way. The bottom line is we need to live and life has its cost. I never talk down on anyone. I know where I come from and it wasn't easy getting where I am now. Everyone has something to teach. Union and non-union. Take what you want and leave the rest. 

I had a great GF (20+ years of experience) tell me once. Pull me to the side as a baby cub and tell me he did not know everything. No one does. WE learn everyday. If we not learning something new we going down the wrong way. 

I had a Super that mights as well been a non union guy but had 25+ union years in the trade run us like a Nazi camp. Tell his guys if they did piece work they starve. Lol. Alot of guys won't take calls for him. He can't event show his face at the hall. He meant well. He just wanted guys to work with a purpose, walk with a purpose, plan it out. 

Yes, it is a benefit to join and Yes, the non union worker brings with him experience he can share and contribute to the job which all can benefit from. If a 20+ year GF tells a cub he doesn't know everything I'm sure we can all benefit from each others help.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Why don't you work out of your local anymore? Was it a shortage of work thing? Are you making more money now doing your own resi service gig? Just curious


I was getting really sick of solar work which I had been doing for 2 years and I also wasn't feeling very well so I asked to be on the next lay-off. There was plenty of work out of the local so I wasn't worried, I figured I'd take a couple of weeks to a month to relax. Shortly after I found my issue was with my heart and I was told that I should be on permanent disability. So knowing that I couldn't work a full time physical job anymore, I found it to be the perfect opportunity to go out on my own in which I could control how much physical work I do. I worked with the local to get my license and went from there.



> Are you making more money now doing your own resi service gig?


No, I am not making as much as I did working full time in the union. That's still my goal. But I am making more than I need to run the company, live my normal life, and still put a little away. And doing it by working a third of the hours and much less physical labor, so I am happy. It's better than disability.


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## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

Tsmil said:


> Must be the end of the world. I'm non-union and my pay rate is at par or above what union rates are. Benefits my not be quite at par but. I work 49 weeks a year.


End of the world indeed, I pay my guys just a hair less then union but they pull in more then alot of union members due to no one has been laid off or sent home early in 7 years. They also have the benefit of being home every night since we dont do work out of town like most contractors here.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *EBFD6*  
_


I get paid pretty well for an amateur then I guess.

Plus, while the "professionals" are sitting home on unemployment, we're taking all their work. So it's not all bad.:thumbup:_

How much did you make a last year? How many vacation checks did u get last year?
How much do u have in your annuity? In your pension? How many pensions do u have? Do u have medical insurance? What are your medical co pays?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> I was getting really sick of solar work which I had been doing for 2 years and I also wasn't feeling very well so I asked to be on the next lay-off. There was plenty of work out of the local so I wasn't worried, I figured I'd take a couple of weeks to a month to relax. Shortly after I found my issue was with my heart and I was told that I should be on permanent disability. So knowing that I couldn't work a full time physical job anymore, I found it to be the perfect opportunity to go out on my own in which I could control how much physical work I do. I worked with the local to get my license and went from there.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am not making as much as I did working full time in the union. That's still my goal. But I am making more than I need to run the company, live my normal life, and still put a little away. And doing it by working a third of the hours and much less physical labor, so I am happy. It's better than disability.


so you really are not permenatly disabled.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

rewire said:


> so you really are not permenatly disabled.


That's an argument between my cardiologist (and now my oncologist as well) and the social security administration. I simply told you what my doctor told me. But I understand that you are looking for an argument as usual.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Who had off? Now you're sounding like those other guys who don't have a clue what they are talking about and ignorantly think all union members sit the bench.
> 
> Go back a year or two and read this same forum. That is where I got that.
> 
> ...


I know around here a NU guy makes around $25 to $30 where as a union guy makes around $35 to $40. 
My BIL is union. He drives 120 miles to work and back everyday on his own dime. He makes about $14 an hour more now than when he worked for me. He has worked around 2 years out of the last 5, but now he is working on a Google project I think. Which would be cool.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> That's an argument between my cardiologist (and now my oncologist as well) and the social security administration. I simply told you what my doctor told me. But I understand that you are looking for an argument as usual.


sounds like you need to visit your gynecologist. :whistling2:


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I know around here


 THe person you attacked is not around you, he is in NY where you know they make like $90/hr in the package. So why are you arguing with him and calling him a liar? We all know that the non-union guys aren't making half of that. 



> My BIL is union.


 Yeah, and now you are going to tell us a story about how he doesn't work and had all these years off and then expect everyone to believe that all union workers are like that, huh?

These are silly arguments, you must have had a bad week, I think you should take a vacation.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

rewire said:


> sounds like you need to visit your gynecologist. :whistling2:


My vagina is just fine, thank you.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Who had off? Now you're sounding like those other guys who don't have a clue what they are talking about and ignorantly think all union members sit the bench.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with the topic you brought up? We were talking about how you didn't believe that non-union guys can often make less than half of what union guys make


He did not say often and guys are on here every single day looking for work.



Hack Work said:


> THe person you attacked is not around you, he is in NY where you know they make like $90/hr in the package. So why are you arguing with him and calling him a liar? We all know that the non-union guys aren't making half of that.
> 
> Yeah, and now you are going to tell us a story about how he doesn't work and had all these years off and then expect everyone to believe that all union workers are like that,


Not all, most. On top of that he is a ****ty electrician. Can't think for himself. That is why the union is perfect for him.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> He did not say often


 Yes, I said often because usually they make closer to a third of the union compensation. Many times almost a quarter.


> Not all, most. On top of that he is a ****ty electrician. Can't think for himself. That is why the union is perfect for him.


Is this your wife's brother? If so, I'm definitely telling her how you're talking about him.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Hack Work said:


> No, I am not making as much as I did working full time in the union. That's still my goal. But I am making more than I need to run the company, live my normal life, and still put a little away. And doing it by working a third of the hours and much less physical labor, so I am happy. It's better than disability.


I'd say you are making more if you're bringing in good money with a third of the time and half the physical effort.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Is this your wife's brother? If so, I'm definitely telling her how you're talking about him.


No my sisters husband. You would really like her. She also argues about everything and throws a tantrum when she doesn't hear what she likes.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> I'd say you are making more if you're bringing in good money with a third of the time and half the physical effort.


Yeah, but I'm not making as much money per week and I am definitely not making nearly as much as I would need to fund a retirement package or medical insurance like I was getting in the union. 

But I am getting by and having a fun time while doing it so I can't complain at all. :thumbsup:


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> No my sisters husband. You would really like her. She also argues about everything and throws a tantrum when she doesn't hear what she likes.


Do they swing?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Do they swing?


Makes sense. You would love him...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Some larger non union companies in New England pay close to or above union scale, but don't have the pension program and the top notch medical benefits. However, they do have paid vacations, holidays, and other perks which are not available in the union. 

On the smaller end of the scale, I estimate that non-union electricians make about $5-10/hr less with about equal benefits to the larger shops.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

MTW said:


> Some larger non union companies in New England pay close to or above union scale, but don't have the pension program and the top notch medical benefits. *However, they do have paid vacations, holidays,* and other perks which are not available in the union.


 Most unions have a vacation fund. My local's vacation fund is approximately the equivalent to 4 weeks worth of wages per year put into the fund. 

If a local doesn't have a vacation fund, it's probably because they chose to put the money into the paycheck.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Most unions have a vacation fund. My local's vacation fund is approximately the equivalent to 4 weeks worth of wages per year put into the fund.
> 
> If a local doesn't have a vacation fund, it's probably because they chose to put the money into the paycheck.


Interesting. So what happens when you want to take some time off?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> Interesting. So what happens when you want to take some time off?


Time off without pay.

Men in our local do not get vacation pay, though we do give our men paid vacations.

OUr local just recently got paid holidays, though as with vacations we offered them as a benefit.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

99cents said:


> I have been union and non-union. I seriously don't have an issue with either side. Philosophically, however, I have serious issues with any person or organization who tries to force me to do anything against my will.


The IBEW should try the tactic of being aggressively friendly. :whistling2:


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

MTW said:


> Interesting. So what happens when you want to take some time off?


You take the time off and use the money in your vacation fund to cover that week (or two, or three) of work.

It makes sense for the union because of the way some workers get rotated. A contractor isn't going to want to pay for a week vacation for a man that has only worked for them for 5 weeks.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

13 pages??? :thumbsup:

I like your idea trollfist.

And the locals will never do it. Well, not my local. Because I am sure they would somehow trump this up into a RICO case. And my local has a billion and a half dollars. That's alot of money............. to put on the line, when aggressively taking on repub aligned contractors with koch brother funded law firms in their back pocket.

The union is no longer a tool of the working man, by the working man. It is for the working man, sure, but it is of 'The Man,' so to speak, big business. Big business gets sweaty palms at the scent of liability.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> I'd say you are making more if you're bringing in good money with a third of the time and half the physical effort.


Don't forget sponging off the government dime when you are laid off on a regular basis.:laughing:


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

mr hands said:


> 13 pages??? :thumbsup:
> 
> I like your idea trollfist.
> 
> ...


conclusion: agressive shop flipping would be a very bad idea. we need to make friends instead of enemies. 

I appreciated all the input: positive, or negative. friendly or angry.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

aggressive shop flipping: bad idea.

loosening lugs on feeders: better idea. 

I learned that's one trick union competitors do to each other. Why not spread the fun around?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

mr hands said:


> aggressive shop flipping: bad idea. loosening lugs on feeders: better idea. I learned that's one trick union competitors do to each other. Why not spread the fun around?


How do they get access to the equipment to loosen the lugs. If I came into work and saw some guy I didn't know in the gear I'd kick him square in the balls, and then ask him what he's doing


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> How do they get access to the equipment to loosen the lugs. If I came into work and saw some guy I didn't know in the gear I'd kick him square in the balls, and then ask him what he's doing


If I knew one of my guys was doing that to anyone union or non-union he'd be in major trouble permanently.

We had a one union member from another contractor messing with our trucks he thought we were an open shop contractor) the customer had him removed from the job and his boss pink slipped him.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mr hands said:


> aggressive shop flipping: bad idea.
> 
> loosening lugs on feeders: better idea.
> 
> I learned that's one trick union competitors do to each other. Why not spread the fun around?




Union WHEN QUALITY COUNTS:thumbsup::thumbsup:

If you really did this you should be banned from the forum and the union as both places are for professionals.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't do it....

Inspectors do.


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## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

mr hands said:


> *loosening lugs on feeders: better idea.*


:blink:
Easiest way to lose any license you have and get criminal charges if something goes wrong. Not a good idea. :no:


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

Union membership is extremely good for some and extremely bad for the rest. When there is plenty of work it's not nearly as obvious! The training is the best,you can take that experience and training to start your own business.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spunk#7 said:


> Union membership is extremely good for some and extremely bad for the rest. When there is plenty of work it's not nearly as obvious! The training is the best,you can take that experience and training to start your own business.


And you can do that with open shop training and with NO SCHOOLING. I have been at this 43 years and in business 30 years with no formal apprenticeship.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

brian john said:


> And you can do that with open shop training and with NO SCHOOLING. I have been at this 43 years and in business 30 years with no formal apprenticeship.


Yes, Brian, we know you had no formal schooling and you're a rockstar.

But it's silly to act as if that's the right way. A good, solid apprenticeship with on the job training as well as classroom time is important and you shouldn't dissuade anyone from doing it.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hack Work said:


> Yes, Brian, we know you had no formal schooling and you're a rockstar.
> 
> But it's silly to act as if that's the right way. A good, solid apprenticeship with on the job training as well as classroom time is important and you shouldn't dissuade anyone from doing it.


Education and quality training are never a bad thing for tradesmen.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Yes, Brian, we know you had no formal schooling and you're a rockstar.
> 
> But it's silly to act as if that's the right way. A good, solid apprenticeship with on the job training as well as classroom time is important and you shouldn't dissuade anyone from doing it.


Read what he posted take a deep breath and realize that until 15 years ago most shops were started by men with little or no schooling.

If union schooling was what was required to start good shops we'd be sadly short of electrical contactors and that ain't the case.

Rock star no, god to the minions yes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Education and quality training are never a bad thing for tradesmen.


Never said it wasn't. I am all for education and in particular further education which it seems most electricians avoid after finishing any type of apprenticeship.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Here is the thing that I am not sure a lot of Union guys understand:

How many electricians will be needed now and in the future for work?

Now, how many electricians does the union accept into their apprenticeship system?

Okay, how many non-union guys tried to get into an apprenticeship, did not get in, but did get a job at a non-union shop?

Now, how many of those guys have that chip on their shoulder, and could care less about how the union seemingly didn't want them, or want to help them?

I would hazard a guess that their are ill feelings on both sides of the fence for seemingly stupid wrongs that the one side did to the other. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Switched said:


> Here is the thing that I am not sure a lot of Union guys understand:
> 
> How many electricians will be needed now and in the future for work?
> 
> Now, how many electricians does the union accept into their apprenticeship system?


 During the recession we took in a large number of apprentices and continue to grow the apprenticeship size as well as take in open shop men. 

Some in the union will tell you growing their local is a bad thing or not necessary, I have worked around locals that only cared about current members and could give a crap about growing. And fought out of town union contractors trying to establish a foothold in that town. 




> I would hazard a guess that their are ill feelings on both sides of the fence for seemingly stupid wrongs that the one side did to the other. The truth lies somewhere in the middle





> .


 Winner winner


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Sometimes I wonder about your people... 

WTF is the purpose of bringing in new members and "growing a local" if there is not enough work to support it? All you would be doing is putting more men out of work, I've seen it happen over the years and it's not a good thing. Hell, I saw it happen about 4 years ago when my local had over 100 apprentices out of work. That has NEVER happened in the history of the local, it's very odd to have more than 20 apprentices on the list. It was caused, quite simply, because they were bringing too many apprentices in for the past few years and there wasn't enough work to support them. 

Locals bring in new men when the market can support them, which is the only way that makes sense.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Switched said:


> Here is the thing that I am not sure a lot of Union guys understand:
> 
> How many electricians will be needed now and in the future for work?
> 
> Now, how many electricians does the union accept into their apprenticeship system?


Enough apprentices to meet that need without flooding the membership rolls to a point where the ratio of apprentices to journeymen would be violated. 


> Okay, how many non-union guys tried to get into an apprenticeship, did not get in, but did get a job at a non-union shop?
> 
> Now, how many of those guys have that chip on their shoulder, and could care less about how the union seemingly didn't want them, or want to help them?


Yea... applicants who don't get in sometimes go the nonunion route. In fact, some start out nonunion simply because they're offered 1-2 bucks an hour more than our apprenticeship pays and fails to consider the future pay disparity. Not everybody who applies for a job, whether union or nonunion, gets it. The world isn't perfect. 


> I would hazard a guess that their are ill feelings on both sides of the fence for seemingly stupid wrongs that the one side did to the other. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


The key word here is "seemingly." We have somewhere around 13,000 electricians. If we took in the 2000+ applicants we have waiting every year there'd be a waiting list of 10,000 journeymen with over a 5 year wait for a job when they turned out over the course of 5 years. As we feel electrical work is a skilled trade, and one of our purposes is to IMPROVE our lives, we do not and cannot follow the nonunion business model of loading up with copious amounts of fresh, lesser or no skilled labor at rockbottom wages, only to be faced with a glut of members 5 years later who are all demanding steady or reasonably steady employment, forcing wages down, unemployment up, and actually DIMINISHING lives. 

I have to wonder why you don't have the same chip on your shoulder towards the nonunion sector, because for certain, there are nonunion contractors who also told you to "hit the bricks, we're not looking for help right now" before you landed a job elsewhere.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> During the recession we took in a large number of apprentices and continue to grow the apprenticeship size as well as take in open shop men.
> 
> Some in the union will tell you growing their local is a bad thing or not necessary, I have worked around locals that only cared about current members and could give a crap about growing. And fought out of town union contractors trying to establish a foothold in that town.
> 
> Winner winner


If organizing via card-check were a reality, things could be different. All we would have to do is ask every open shop applicant to sign a card, and to spread the word to their co-workers. Test them all for placement and wait until we have a majority in any shop, then flip it. Under the proposed rules of card check, that shop would now become union, and if the owner put up a legal challenge it would have to remain union until a final NLRB decision was rendered. The way it works now, any decent lawyer can stave off attempts to unionize and tie it up in the courts, keeping the shop nonunion until the decision, and by then the owners have enough time to fire all the employees, engage in an anti-union campaign, or whatever else it takes to remain nonunion. When this is explained to open shop men, what the consequences could be and probably will be, they're not interested in participating. Anything that might interrupt their income stream is out of the question.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> If organizing via card-check were a reality, things could be different. All we would have to do is ask every open shop applicant to sign a card, and to spread the word to their co-workers. Test them all for placement and wait until we have a majority in any shop, then flip it. Under the proposed rules of card check, that shop would now become union, and if the owner put up a legal challenge it would have to remain union until a final NLRB decision was rendered. The way it works now, any decent lawyer can stave off attempts to unionize and tie it up in the courts, keeping the shop nonunion until the decision, and by then the owners have enough time to fire all the employees, engage in an anti-union campaign, or whatever else it takes to remain nonunion. When this is explained to open shop men, what the consequences could be and probably will be, they're not interested in participating. Anything that might interrupt their income stream is out of the question.


People who support card check hate elections.



> The way it works now, any decent lawyer can stave off attempts to unionize and tie it up in the courts, keeping the shop nonunion until the decision, and by then the owners have enough time to fire all the employees, engage in an anti-union campaign, or whatever else it takes to remain nonunion.


 Yet thousands of non-union companies have been unionized just fine. Your propaganda is getting you no where.

Again, anyone who supports card check is un-American and should go eat a bullet. The entire point of card check is to take away secret ballot elections and let union thugs go door to door forcing the employees to sign under threats of violence to them or their families.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hack Work said:


> People who support card check hate elections.
> 
> Yet thousands of non-union companies have been unionized just fine. Your propaganda is getting you no where.
> 
> Again, anyone who supports card check is un-American and should go eat a bullet. The entire point of card check is to take away secret ballot elections and let union thugs go door to door forcing the employees to sign under threats of violence to them or their families.


Holy crap!

I agree with Hack. Wtf is going on?


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> Holy crap!
> 
> I agree with Hack. Wtf is going on?


As I told you the other day, there is a lot about the union and union members that I do not like.

You asked for honesty, right?


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