# Aiken Colon saved my life!



## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

Aiken I want to send out a great deal of gratitude to you. 

A few weeks ago I received my insulated strippers from Aiken for a review.
I was using them today working some hot 277V one of the wires an apprentice installed had been nicked when pulled into the EMT and thus it was shorted. I was in a hurry which nobody should ever be in of course and I didn't check for a short in the wires before I started making up my joints. 

I was cutting the hot 277V wire and the new switchleg wire with the strippers to get them to a manageable length and as soon as the strippers bit through to the copper BOOM! sparks hot copper slag and all came flying out of the 1900 box. If i had been using my standard Klein curves I'm sure I would've been hit with the 277 and hard. So basically THANKS Aiken Colon!!!!!!:thumbsup::notworthy:

oh yea I'll be uploading pictures of how well the strippers took the hit later tonight!


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

dowmace said:


> ..........working some hot 277V........... I was in a hurry.......


You are playing with death man!  

I am glad to hear that you are OK, but what is better; getting off work a little later, or never making it to dinner time.

Stay safe :thumbup:,

~Matt


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> You are playing with death man!
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are OK, but what is better; getting off work a little later, or never making it to dinner time.
> 
> ...


I wish it was something I could have prevented, a customer lost their shop lighting and needed it back before I got there kind of thing. I still should have been safe though


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> You are playing with death man!
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are OK, but what is better; getting off work a little later, or never making it to dinner time.
> 
> ...


 The worst shock of my life was because I was in a hurry. It was 4:45 pm and I got off work at 5. I was in a 480 panel working on the line side of a disconnect. We could not shut the system done. My screwdriver slipped and I fell into the disconnect and hit all three phases with my bare arm. Melted the screwdriver threw me off the ladder quite a ways. Hurt like !!!! I was off the rest of the week recovering from the fall and a pretty good burn on my arm. During this period I considered becoming a plumber!!! 

This was well before PPE was required or even thought of. Relying on tools for safety is not a good plan. As we all know the best tool that we all have is our brains. I have adopted this motto. Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance. 

Glad to here that you came out ok. I lost a good friend who was working on 277 lighting. He was up on a ladder between the ceiling grid working in a J-box (which had 480 ) got careless and was electrocuted.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

dowmace said:


> working some hot 277V...
> 
> I was in a hurry...
> 
> ...


This was something that could have been prevented...and SHOULD have been.

We all know what it is like to have get something running NOW or sooner, but getting hurt, or causing equipment damage because we are in a hurry only slows the job down more in the long run.

The bottom line is you got out of it un-scathed this time, but did you learn from this experience? More importantly, will you make the effort next time to do the job safely is the real question.

I will get off my soapbox now, be safe out there!:thumbsup:


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Did you have a hot work permit? Were you wearing an arc flash suit? Or are you stupid?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> If i had been using my standard Klein curves I'm sure I would've been hit with the 277 and hard


Not to take away from your near death experience but....I don't think so. 

The electrons took the path to ground which was thru the strippers and into the shorted wire. Unless you were leaning on the box, you would have been OK.

And...working hot, cutting 2 wires at a time??? Are you competing for a Darwin award:jester:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

surfbh said:


> Did you have a hot work permit? Were you wearing an arc flash suit? Or are you stupid?


Are you an ass? You may be trying to get your point across but there's a better way to do it.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Intentionally working hot is completely stupid, period. I know someone who died from working 277 hot intentionally. It is totally against NFPA70E which is about to become even more stringent also. So if this qualifies me as an ass then an ass I am.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Intentionally working hot is completely stupid, period.



Making blanket statements like that is stupid.:jester:

You see, you are not in charge of the world and you don't get to make the rules. I am allowed to make decisions for myself. I have the brains and experience to choose wisely. If you take away all of our choices we will become a nation of drones.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Out of the 1000 electricians electrocuted in the U.S. each year, 500 were working hot intentionally. Thats straight out of my Electrical Safety-Related Work Practices Book. People work hot to save time, I understand. But for 500 a year their time ran out. I don't want to be the best electrician, just the oldest!


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

surfbh said:


> Out of the 1000 electricians electrocuted in the U.S. each year, 500 were working hot intentionally. Thats straight out of my Electrical Safety-Related Work Practices Book. People work hot to save time, I understand. But for 500 a year their time ran out. I don't want to be the best electrician, just the oldest!


 Sometimes you have to work it hot. The proper PPE and watching what you are doing is the ONLY way to do it. Myself as an IW have worked 4160 hot. Oh course I had my hot gloves on and hot blankets were in place. It was at a prison. You cannot just shut the place down they get really nervous even talking about the possibility of a power outage for some reason! :001_huh:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I think some situations it is not realistic to turn off the power, over the years my work has become much more safe but I have worked in to many building on there 40th office remodel that have mislabeled panels with circuits in multiple suites. Or residential panel replacements when you tie into the utility. I think you can still be safe and work with live electricity. Out of the 500 killed I wonder how many truly understood the potential. I feel I do and that makes me extremely cautious.


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

I was using the proper safety gear, I was wearing my arc flash shirt and pants that I have started wearing daily, and I was wearing my safety glasses I feel that is all I should require when working in a j-box. I made a mistake by not checking the new wire for a short, had I checked it and made sure it was clear there would not have been a problem. *I* made a mistake, shutting off the power was not feasible. Had it been I would have shut them down but I couldn't spend an hour or so looking for the breaker when they were sitting in the dark stopping production. 

I have never had to get a hot work permit. Since when do I have to apply to work hot? And to who would I have to apply?


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

dowmace said:


> I have never had to get a hot work permit. Since when do I have to apply to work hot? And to who would I have to apply?


 Someplace's here require you to get a permit just to open up a powered disconnect. Mostly factories that require it as well as the refinery. We go through their safety guy (ahem) *PERSON *here.


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Well...... I don't know what to say. Your welcome, but I'd rather give the tool the credit. I'm certainly glad the tool did it's job, otherwise you may not have been with us any longer. One thing is for certain, I can continue to sell Ideal's hand tools knowing they do what they're suppossed to do. Oh, and I'm glad you're ok. I probably would have soiled myself and gone home for the day, but that's me. :blink:


Chris


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## Ecopat (Apr 17, 2008)

Can I just say that I am glad that you are okay man.


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## Kletis (Jan 18, 2008)

I know that you should always turn things off when you can. I know that you should check them first if you think they are de-energized. I have a good knowledge of the potentials that I work with. Having said that, I have blown up tools before. I learned from it and now I only replace tools when they wear out not because I blow them up. 

Dowmace is human and did make a mistake. Judging by his post I believe that he learned a lesson. I think that calling him stupid is quite a stretch. It seems to me that although he made a mistake he learned from it and has moved on and I am sure will never make that mistake again. To me learning from his mistake would make him smart...I guess it is all in how you look at it...


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

i know most of you guys are going to hammer me on this one but ive got big shoulders. doing hot work is not always unsafe. people that lack proper training doing hot work almost always is. i take pride as an electrician in being trained to do hot work. most accidents are not accidents, they happen because someone didnt use common scense. if you put in something new ring it out, if your taking something apart do it one wire at a time starting with the hot. i see this whole nfpa70e thing as a dumbing down of our trade. they are trying to make it safe for any idiot with a screwdriver to poke around in a panel. im very proud to be an electrician, ive worked hard to get where i am just as many of you have. to me part of being a good electrician is the ability to do hot work SAFELY. and im not saying go dive into a hot gear, im saying use your head. if the work can be done safely and efficiantly i dont see a problem with doing it hot. 

ok sorry about the rant let the comments fly


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## dezwitinc (Jul 18, 2007)

"if the work can be done safely and efficiantly i dont see a problem with doing it hot." mattsilkwood

Exactly.
There are people around right now who can't see because of the 'I am working safely' attitude.

Turn it off and be safe.
Most times, the work can be performed more quickly when it is dead than when it is hot.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Not ALL of us can turn it off, sad, but misunderstood. Matt, you know as well of the rest of us,...we are just one touch away. Did you see Donnie's accident on YouTube? I don't know how he survived. We are just one step away from death, I hope everyone respects that and wears their full PPE.

Work smart, work safe, come home to our families.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

76nemo said:


> Not ALL of us can turn it off, sad, but misunderstood. Matt, you know as well of the rest of us,...we are just one touch away. Did you see Donnie's accident on YouTube? I don't know how he survived. We are just one step away from death, I hope everyone respects that and wears their full PPE.
> 
> Work smart, work safe, come home to our families.


I completly agree. I did see Donnies accident. Way too many people in this field still see 120v as harmless 

~Matt


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

dezwitinc said:


> "if the work can be done safely and efficiantly i dont see a problem with doing it hot." mattsilkwood
> 
> Exactly.
> There are people around right now who can't see because of the 'I am working safely' attitude.
> ...




I now work as Electrical Maintenance for the company at which this incident happened. There are very few times when I have the luxury of turning the power off because of A. Production B. It would be unsafe to waste time searching for a breaker or disconnect when equipment could be very dangerous when energized. 

With that said I use INSULATED tools, INSULATED gloves, and I wear the Arc Flash clothing whenever I deem it necessary. I have realized most people do not understand not only is it not practical to shut the power off, there are times when it is just plain not safe. We had a crane hang up one day while we had a very large sheet of steel on the magnet, I had to work on it energized because shutting the power off would have dropped the sheet steel and more than likely caused a fatality. 

There are many ifs, ands, and buts about it.:yes:


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

dowmace said:


> I now work as Electrical Maintenance for the company at which this incident happened. There are very few times when I have the luxury of turning the power off because of A. Production B. It would be unsafe to waste time searching for a breaker or disconnect when equipment could be very dangerous when energized.
> 
> With that said I use INSULATED tools, INSULATED gloves, and I wear the Arc Flash clothing whenever I deem it necessary. I have realized most people do not understand not only is it not practical to shut the power off, there are times when it is just plain not safe. We had a crane hang up one day while we had a very large sheet of steel on the magnet, I had to work on it energized because shutting the power off would have dropped the sheet steel and more than likely caused a fatality.
> 
> There are many ifs, ands, and buts about it.:yes:


I only see one instance where you MIGHT have a good arguement for 'infeasible' defense to turn off power and thats the case of the sheet steel that can fall and kill someone. the others: "1)production 2) unsafe to waste time searching for a breaker", are not going to hold up in court in my opinion. Because first of all, the CODE requires that the panel schedules/one lines be accurate and they are not and you know about it, then why wasnt it traced out before hand, and as for production, thats just money, they would have to show a HUGE amount of loss of money over the loss of a human life. 

check this link out, someone showed me and open my eyes a little. 


WHEN ARE SAFETY MEASURES "INFEASIBLE"?


http://www.wbgllp.com/html/sm.html


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

brother said:


> I only see one instance where you MIGHT have a good arguement for 'infeasible' defense to turn off power and thats the case of the sheet steel that can fall and kill someone. the others: "1)production 2) unsafe to waste time searching for a breaker", are not going to hold up in court in my opinion. Because first of all, the CODE requires that the panel schedules/one lines be accurate and they are not and you know about it, then why wasnt it traced out before hand, and as for production, thats just money, they would have to show a HUGE amount of loss of money over the loss of a human life.
> 
> check this link out, someone showed me and open my eyes a little.
> 
> ...


It doesn't honestly matter if my panel schedules are correct or not, one of the buildings we manufacture our wind towers in is 1500 feet from end to end, and yes the Main Distribution Panel and all of the 480V switch gear are on that end of the building.

I don't know about you but it takes me some time to walk a full 1/4 mile across the building to find a breaker when I know I could put my gloves and face shield on faster and get the job done. You'll never get me to agree that I need to walk that far twice once to shut off and again to turn back on. When I feel the work can be done just as safely and much quicker by suiting up and wearing insulated arc flash rated clothing. 

But I doubt I will change your mind the argument could go on for years I am sure. :thumbsup:


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

dowmace said:


> It doesn't honestly matter if my panel schedules are correct or not, one of the buildings we manufacture our wind towers in is 1500 feet from end to end, and yes the Main Distribution Panel and all of the 480V switch gear are on that end of the building.
> 
> I don't know about you but it takes me some time to walk a full 1/4 mile across the building to find a breaker when I know I could put my gloves and face shield on faster and get the job done. You'll never get me to agree that I need to walk that far twice once to shut off and again to turn back on. When I feel the work can be done just as safely and much quicker by suiting up and wearing insulated arc flash rated clothing.
> 
> But I doubt I will change your mind the argument could go on for years I am sure. :thumbsup:


 
It may not 'matter' to you, but it would 'matter' to osha. and Thats all that matters. Telling the feds that it was just 'too far' to walk was your reason to work hot or have someone else work hot, Is not going to fly. 
check out this guy. 
http://www.arcflashsurvivor.com/


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## dowmace (Jan 16, 2008)

brother said:


> It may not 'matter' to you, but it would 'matter' to osha. and Thats all that matters. Telling the feds that it was just 'too far' to walk was your reason to work hot or have someone else work hot, Is not going to fly.
> check out this guy.
> http://www.arcflashsurvivor.com/


I'll be honest you are NOT going to change my opinion on this subject, I will put my OWN life in danger much before I will spend up to an hour in some cases shutting off the power to a machine so it can be worked on. Many things can happen in that hour, I do not think you realize the things that can go wrong in certain environments. I will not argue the subject any farther as you refuse to listen to a logical intelligent argument. It plain and simple does not matter what OSHA has to say, that is not the argument at hand. The argument is if it is possible to work safely when working energized and in my opinion it is possible. I will leave it at that.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

dow's right


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## azsly1 (Nov 12, 2008)

i was in a hurry...

i should have checked for a nicked wire...



i really am tired of hearing that. about 2 months ago, i had to push a jackass co-worker off of a energized 277 circut with a 2x4. he cut a backfed neutral that was on a lighting circut while he was leaning on a metal wireway. i pushed him off, he had blood coming out of his mouth, and his right index finger looked like a burnt hot dog. not to mention he was unconcious. i'm not into seeing that again and will do what it takes to NOT see that again. this co-worker didnt die, but lost the tip of his index finger due to it. 

there's a big joke at whatever jobsite i end up on now that i need to have a 2x4 in my gang box. since then, i do have 1 in there, and i hope to never use it again...

i dont care if your in a hurry, cause i'm sure your wife, brother, sister, kid, mother, or father isnt in a hurry to go to your viewing.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

azsly1 said:


> i was in a hurry...
> 
> i should have checked for a nicked wire...
> 
> ...


I agree with you man, but consider this. What about us guys who go in and do power quality analysis? We can't turn it off. I work maintenance. I completely agree we need to shut it down when it's called for, but we can't always do it. I know you all hate to hear that because you all care of our well being and safety as well as the rest of our families.

I applaud you all for your concern. It's a dangerous job, but one of us has to do it.

Your point is taken and it is very righteous. I thank you for the concern, but not ALL work can be performed offline.


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## azsly1 (Nov 12, 2008)

i'm not saying that everything should be done during shut downs, there are instances where hot work needs to be completed. all i'm saying is people need to slow down, asses the situation, and use the proper protective equipment.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

azsly1 said:


> i'm not saying that everything should be done during shut downs, there are instances where hot work needs to be completed. all i'm saying is people need to slow down, asses the situation, and use the proper protective equipment.


 

Right on:thumbsup:


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