# Neutral returns to different panel



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

fix it


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

wildleg said:


> fix it



You paying for that?


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> You paying for that?


can you say "inductive heating". OP put his hands on the ckt - fix or be blamed.


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> You paying for that?


While tracing it, how much time would it take to pull it and fix it properly? If you're tracing it, I'm assuming there is a reason (problem on the cct, breaker tripping/.tripped, etc).. Wouldn't this qualify as being a "problem on the circuit"? Isolate the hot and repair the neutral to the correct panel, remove the old wire and fix the original problem...

OP also didn't say whether they fixed it or not.. For all we know they fixed and were just posting a "WTF.."..


----------



## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Technically if all the subs are fed by the same cdp or mdp it's the same neutral anyways. 

But by cec you "shall" run the neutral in the same conduit


----------



## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Repair it yes. But he does not "have to" repair if the customer will not pay for it. 

If the customer signs a work order and is made aware of the problem you can't make them fix something they won't pay for. They sign, your liability is reduced.


----------



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

wildleg said:


> can you say "inductive heating". OP put his hands on the ckt - fix or be blamed.


It's been like that for 25 years, another 25 years I'm sure won't matter. Inductive heating... Not sure 10-15 amps will do much in a conduit, which is only on at night time.

I just happened to notice it when I was adding more outdoor wallpaks over the rear of the building. (which was too dark)

Could I fix it, of course, I'd have to run 100' of conduit next to existing conduit, as all the piping is already filled to capacity. Will it be fixed, you all know the answer to that. $$$$$

Just one of those WTF  moments.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> It's been like that for 25 years, another 25 years I'm sure won't matter. Inductive heating... *Not sure 10-15 amps* will do much in a conduit, which is only on at night time.


Well you are wrong.



> I just happened to notice it when I was adding more outdoor wallpaks over the rear of the building. (which was too dark)
> 
> Could I fix it, of course, I'd have to run 100' of conduit next to existing conduit, as all the piping is already filled to capacity. Will it be fixed, you all know the answer to that. $$$$$
> 
> Just one of those WTF  moments.


Not your obligation to fix it, but it should be pointed out to the responsible parties and the decision to repair left up to them.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wildleg said:


> can you say "inductive heating". OP put his hands on the ckt - *fix or be blamed*.


Baloney, a large portion of my work is inspecting existing installations, I am there to find power quality issues, if I fixed all the screw up I write up or was responsible for the botched installations I have seen, I would have a life time of work for a whole crew of electricians and be bankrupt.

IMO one should report what you find and preferably in writing.


----------



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

brian john said:


> Well you are wrong.


Can you educate us all please.
say 15 amps, neutral and hot in different conduits, packed.

What exactly is going to happen, that has or hasn't happened in many years.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Can you educate us all please.
> say 15 amps, neutral and hot in different conduits, packed.
> 
> What exactly is going to happen, that has or hasn't happened in many years.


First it results in high levels of EMF, which can cause Power Quality issues and SOME believe health issues, then it can result (as noted) in inductive heating, I could search (and I should have kept separate) the 100K IR images we have accumulated over the years for a IR photo of thermal heating resulting from this type of installation. 

The additional heating can damage the insulation of the affected conductors and the other conductors in the conduit, depending on the system it can affect the operation of ground fault systems, GFCI breakers. 

I should note we see this quite often.

AND LASTLY it is wrong and a code violation, you accept passing on violations?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'll also add that separating out phase conductors can create a lot of additional impedance in a circuit, and slow protection operating times. This becomes especially important in an environment with an arc-flash study, because it may well make your PPE inadequate.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> First it results in high levels of EMF, which can cause Power Quality issues and SOME believe health issues, then it can result (as noted) in inductive heating, I could search (and I should have kept separate) the 100K IR images we have accumulated over the years for a IR photo of thermal heating resulting from this type of installation.
> 
> The additional heating can damage the insulation of the affected conductors and the other conductors in the conduit, depending on the system it can affect the operation of ground fault systems, GFCI breakers.
> 
> ...


I agree it is wrong but health issues from emf on a 120v 15amp circuit? I call BS on that one. :no: 
If it was a serious issue than why does Inductive heating only need to be corrected above 200amps as per the CEC? (4-008 App. B)
Again I'm not saying the OP's problem is ok, just that it will not cause health issues or enough inductive heating to comprimise the insulation. If so, should it not have done something over the past 25yrs since it's been installed?


----------



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

What about in the case of a switch leg, where the hot wire is 50 feet longer than the neutral wire ?

Or is that all cancelled out because the switch leg returns on "itself" ?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> ...Or is that all cancelled out because the switch leg returns on "itself" ?


 Bingo.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> Bingo.


 ??? A swith leg doesn't cancell itself out. It just isn't a concern because of the low amount of current


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

eddy current said:


> A swith leg doesn't cancell itself out...


 Sure it does. You agree that a circuit with hot and neutral in the same cable cancels fields, right? The only thing happening there is voltage is being used across a load.

A switch leg is no different. Think of it as a very, very low impedance load: You're still reversing the current direction for two conductors within the same cable assembly.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

If you want uniform inductive heating (low heat) is mandatory to foresee the emf distribution produced by the inductive coil (or switch leg) under a variety of operative conditions. Temp profiles along with other factors such as length and width affect this, creating a distortion of emf. These "distortions" are what causes heating problems. Particularly, non-uniform temperature profiles are caused mostly by cylindrical, rectangular, and trapezoidal shaped cable assemblies. Off the top of my head.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Cletis said:


> If you want uniform inductive heating (low heat) is mandatory to foresee the emf distribution produced by the inductive coil (or switch leg) under a variety of operative conditions. Temp profiles along with other factors such as length and width affect this, creating a distortion of emf. These "distortions" are what causes heating problems. Particularly, non-uniform temperature profiles are caused mostly by cylindrical, rectangular, and trapezoidal shaped cable assemblies. Off the top of my head.


Nice job on the cut and paste


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> Nice job on the cut and paste


 It's part of his troll act. Works best when ignored.


----------



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

1234


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eddy current said:


> I agree it is wrong but health issues from emf on a 120v 15amp circuit? I call BS on that one. :no: [
> /quote]
> 
> Do you do EMF studies?
> ...


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> Baloney, a large portion of my work is inspecting existing installations, I am there to find power quality issues, if I fixed all the screw up I write up or was responsible for the botched installations I have seen, I would have a life time of work for a whole crew of electricians and be bankrupt.
> 
> IMO one should report what you find and preferably in writing.


I realize that, and that puts you in a unique position to charge people for it separately, as part of your troubleshooting process. It sounded to me from the OP that the guy noticed it, it would have been a 10 min job, and he could have billed it as a portion of installing the extra ckt he was talking about. At any rate, that's what I would have done, but I hear what you're saying.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I realize that, and that puts you in a unique position to charge people for it separately, as part of your troubleshooting process. It sounded to me from the OP that the guy noticed it, it would have been a 10 min job, and he could have billed it as a portion of installing the extra ckt he was talking about. At any rate, that's what I would have done, but I hear what you're saying.


It is what I do but I do not know the legality of it. BUT you would think I would.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

brian john said:


> I do not buy into the health issues, but some studies seem to support it. Having said that EMF from a 15 amp circuit in milligauss is as bad as EMF from a 250KV line if the milligauss levels are the same, the voltage and current are irrelevant, except for the distance from the source.












Milgauss?


----------



## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

The real problem with using a neutral from the wrong panel (but forgive me for being stupid because I'm a hack Canadian electrician [supra]) is that someone will be working in that wrong panel and will disconnect the neutral wire. Then, because it's live from a different panel, they'll get nailed.

I also don't think that an electrician has to fix every bad thing he sees. That kind of requirement makes electricians go blind, then nothing gets reported or fixed.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well read up on common mode current & voltage look up IG grounds and grounding neutrals also for fun take the time and think of a simple three way circuit do you run the neutral with the hot and travelers or separately . Common work we do every day is it correctly done or can it be costly if other things happen meaning the dirty power being used low impedance loads and high impedance loads voltage between neutral and ground current flowing . Emt burnt loss of grounds breaker trip time ect ect .
If you have lots of electronics and i think we all do today you might want to run that neutral with the correct conductors of that branch circuit . 
25 years ago we didnt have problems like today 25 years ago this case would be ok to leave it not really but read up on why you should not do it that way.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

xlink said:


> The real problem with using a neutral from the wrong panel (but forgive me for being stupid because I'm a hack Canadian electrician [supra]) is that someone will be working in that wrong panel and will disconnect the neutral wire. Then, because it's live from a different panel, they'll get nailed.
> 
> I also don't think that an electrician has to fix every bad thing he sees. That kind of requirement makes electricians go blind, then nothing gets reported or fixed.


 
I never said anyone has to fix anything, but I feel you have an obligation to point this out to the parties responsible for the facility. And by reporting, POSSIBLY you may get paid to make the repairs. GOOD BUSINESS practices.

Actually a qualified electrician would utilize a amp clamp to determine if there was load on the conductor. I would never willy nilly lift any conductor before checking for current.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> Because the electricians in Canada are such hacks the country would go bankrupt fixing all the issues?:laughing:


Brain, I agree with our Canadian friends, you will not find dangerous heating with low currents.

Oh sure you may find some heating but it is not going to be a danger to anyone. Can you show any documentation that currents in the 15 amp range have ever caused a dangerous condition due to heating?. 

I do fully understand these low currents do clearly effect the EMF levels.


All that said, I would try to fix it. It very likely violates 300.3(B).


----------



## old jim (Feb 15, 2013)

can anybody give code section that says a nut. can't run 100' shorter, and different path than the over current device protecting it?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

old jim said:


> can anybody give code section that says a nut. can't run 100' shorter, and different path than the over current device protecting it?


 
Based on what I think you are saying.
1. Neutrals are not protected by the OCP.
2. If a neutral is not required for the circuit I would think logic says it can't be a 100' shorter, hard to feed a load with a single conductor.
3. 300.3 (B)? 300.20 (A)?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> *Brain*, I agree with our Canadian friends, you will not find dangerous heating with low currents.


BRAIN? You have me confused with someone that is actually smart

As for our Candanian friends I was kidding (I am sure you knew) , my Grandfather Candanian

I will try to locate an IR picture (IF I CAN)


----------



## old jim (Feb 15, 2013)

*short nuts.*

:blink:sorry Brian, not enough info. last time. The ocp is a breaker located 100' longer than the nut. that controles outside lighting. At some time somebody ran power to a lighting panel. they stoped the nut. in a gutter, and continued the hots to a breaker panel 100' away. Then they brought back the switch legs to the same gutter and ran both the nut. and hots to lights. so actually the hots travel 200' more than the nut. their is no nut. running to the breaker panel as their are no other circts. leaving that panel. It is a 3 phase panel just controling 3 lights and all nuts. come out of the gutter, with the 3 switch legs, and travel to 3 different lights.


----------

