# change-outs



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

We have to bring the GEC to code, this is usually adding a second ground rod and bonding around the water meter.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

We have to bring the grounding up to code. They look for smokes if there is a building permit.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Yep they are starting that smoke detector bs here too, but it's mostly during a remodel or addition. If its accessible like attic above or unfinished basement below must be hardwired but if no access they'll let us use battery units. I honestly have not be hit by it yet. I'm all for safety but I really wish the pencil pushers would realize that we look like crooks trying to steal money from people. Especially when the customer wants job "a" but for job "a" we need to "b,c,d and e". And then some CL hacks proposal comes in for half. I think in a time when alot of people are keeping a tight handle on their spending anyway why make it more difficult for us to make money (epa rrp) 
But that said I cannot understand why the same people who cry about cost are the same people who cannot understand why our economy is in the toilet.
Sorry to vent but I fell a little better now.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Every area is different. Mostly, here if we are just doing a straight-across swap (no increase in service amperage), it's considered a repair and no additional work is required.

If you increase the amperage, then you may need to have two rods, bond to the water, etc. Other places will require 2 SABCs, the bath circuit, etc.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Every area is different. Mostly, here if we are just doing a straight-across swap (no increase in service amperage), it's considered a repair and no additional work is required.
> 
> If you increase the amperage, then you may need to have two rods, bond to the water, etc. Other places will require 2 SABCs, the bath circuit, etc.



If it is just a meter outside unfused to the inside panel we can just replace the panel. If the panel is outside we are required to update the grounding.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

WE have to make the service part sparkly new, unless it's a straight panel change -out (very rare). If the water heater is in 12, we usually change that out too as a free-bie.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Nothing screams Big Brother more than requiring a HO to upgrade different systems in his house that have nothing to do with the original project..

All they are doing is forcing people to do the work below the radar and leave EVERYTHING with no permit and inspection..

There has to be some kind of political agenda to force such mandates on people.. IMO..

Either on permit fees.. sales taxes.. or something I am missing.. :no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

kbatku said:


> WE have to make the service part sparkly new, unless it's a straight panel change -out (very rare). If the water heater is in 12, we usually change that out too as a free-bie.


what's wrong with the WH wired in 12 on a DP20? 18.75 amps non continuos


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

shockdoc said:


> what's wrong with the wh wired in 12 on a dp20? 18.75 amps non continuos


422.13


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> 422.13


I know,just playing . But I'm stuck doing this on a job I need to final that called for a 3500w 20 gallon tank for one bathroom and the GC stuck a 50 gallon there. Wires are run and sheetrock is finished.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

It's a good point though because (as I tell customers) a panel change will often "cause" problems, especially if (though rare these days) you are replacing a fuse box in a house without any wiring updates to speak of. 

Those circuits with the 30 amp fuses on the 14 aren't going to like being on a 15 amp breaker - know what I mean? So suddenly you have all kinds of tripping breakers, and an upset customer if you aren't clear about what a service change will cure, and what it will cause.

In those instances, we usually sell a service change as part of a general upgrade. If the customer just wants a new service and nothing else, who am I to judge?

PS: We're getting hit with the smokie thing too, but not unless there is some kind of remodel with the building inspector involved.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Yeah, updated smokes are only with permit-pulled remodels. A change-out is just a repair and it requires no permit or "updates". Although I do put AFCI's on my plug circuits...I dont think its required though?.?


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## CoopElec (May 16, 2011)

*Banks, Finance and Insurance companies.*

Are the ones ive seen requiring most of this stuff. im beginning to think that if you have Knob and Tube in FL you are screwed as far as getting homeowners insurance.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Yeah, updated smokes are only with permit-pulled remodels. A change-out is just a repair and it requires no permit or "updates". Although I do put AFCI's on my plug circuits...I dont think its required though?.?






You really put arc faults in on a service change out? 

No way would I do that. Unless it is a local thing NC does not require that. There is nothing wrong with doing it. If you can up sell arc fault breakers more power to you. I'd rather put that extra $ in my pocket.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> You really put arc faults in on a service change out?


I have started doing that on my K&T panels. There are usually only two or three circuits that are knob & tube, and for $150 that buys a bit more peace of mind. And yes, they get charged out.  Don't get nothing for free in this world.


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Yeah, updated smokes are only with permit-pulled remodels. A change-out is just a repair and it requires no permit or "updates". Although I do put AFCI's on my plug circuits...I dont think its required though?.?


Here we have to permit A change-out. If there is no remodel going on.
we can use Battery operated smoke detectors. And add GFCI's.
I know it is good from the safety standpoint. But it increases the cost of the job. Making some customers back off.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

kbatku said:


> I have started doing that on my K&T panels. There are usually only two or three circuits that are knob & tube, and for $150 that buys a bit more peace of mind. And yes, they get charged out.  Don't get nothing for free in this world.


One customer of mine actually found an insurance company that wrote off their K&T circuitry for the inclusion of AFCI's

they slice, dice & make julian fries too yanno....~CS~


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Teaspoon said:


> Here we have to permit A change-out. If there is no remodel going on.
> we can use Battery operated smoke detectors. And add GFCI's.
> I know it is good from the safety standpoint. But it increases the cost of the job. Making some customers back off.


It must be an area thing. We have to add the battery powered smokes but they don't make us add the GFCIs. I got tagged on one recently, I put the smokes in all the bedrooms and the common area to the bedrooms. But I forgot to add one in the basement.
It took about 2 minutes to install the smoke and 2 days to get the inspector back.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here if it is a straight out swap, nobody is going to be a ****** and sit around the building dept. for 5 hours getting a permit...... least not me.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Bulldog1 said:


> You really put arc faults in on a service change out?
> 
> No way would I do that. Unless it is a local thing NC does not require that. There is nothing wrong with doing it. If you can up sell arc fault breakers more power to you. I'd rather put that extra $ in my pocket.


Not sure. Ive done this in the past to cover my tail if anything every came up. I would'nt mind selling it without AFCI's and I'd gladly pass on the stress of worrying the whole time if they are gonna hold. I've never been 100% sure so I tend to err on the side of good judgement.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

kbatku said:


> I have started doing that on my K&T panels. There are usually only two or three circuits that are knob & tube, and for $150 that buys a bit more peace of mind. And yes, they get charged out. * Don't get nothing for free in this world. :*(


You should tell this guy. :whistling2:



kbatku said:


> WE have to make the service part sparkly new, unless it's a straight panel change -out (very rare). If the water heater is in 12, *we usually change that out too as a free-bie.*



One thing the powers that be in here in Massachusetts have done right is to have some actual common sense written into the code.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

LOL!! Good catch!  What I mean to say is it's figured into the bid. Of course, their service change costs less, the less we do. That is one of the things the inspector will call us on (sometimes) so if it's an easy fix, we just go ahead and do it. If it looks tough, we warn the home owner that an extra-cost could be incurred if we are forced (by the inspector) to upgrade their deficient wiring. And we give them the choice of fixing it all up front - few do - but then a) they are warned and b) it's their choice.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> One thing the powers that be in here in Massachusetts have done right is to have some actual common sense written into the code.


I agree, but how the hell did that happen?:blink::blink:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I agree, but how the hell did that happen?:blink::blink:


Somebody effed up. :laughing:


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

That's why I cringe when folks casually speak of 'swapping out the panel' as being a 2-hour job. Here's what's part of a proper service change:

1) Replace the mast with a 2" one, and mount / brace it as now required. This often means you can no longer have the weatherhead under the eaves, and must punch through the roof;

2) Size the wires for at least 100 amps;

3) New meter pan AND disconnect, 100-amp minimum;

4) Service equipment needs to be outdoor rated;

5) Service may have to be relocated if the old location is no longer allowed (too close to the gas meter, too far from the corner of the house, wrong side of house, etc.;

6) Bushes and trees trimmed so as to allow working space- and not touch the PoCo lines;

7) Ground rod(s) and water bond updated;

8) "Intersystem" bonding point for the low-voltage guys to ground their stuff; and,

9) An outdoor receptacle if there isn't one.

Besides the NEC, your PoCo has standards .... that you can probably access free at their web site. If you're increasing the service size, you will need to clear that with the PoCo as well.


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