# Aluminum wire, feel like there is only one real answer



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Sure you could use the splice devices that are listed or ...some other method I don't even recall what it's called but it's an expensive thingy majiggy...but why even entertain those routes? It's certainly not worth your sanity. Change it out, move on.


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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

This app sucks, I cant see anyone's replies. Don't waste your time


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

So.....use an internet browser. Problem solved.


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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

Able to view in browser. 

I am asking to support my position on a whole rewire being the only appropriate option. I don't see how it can be done and stood behind as a quality installation. I am only writing this for the agent, it is not a bid. I already told her I am not interested in pig tailing. She is trying to push the sale. Just looking for some hard lines for my write up. Thanks


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Unlike your user name......Just say no.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

surenoproblem said:


> Is there a professional way to improve a house with zinsco panels and aluminum wire short of a whole rewire and new service. And be code compliant and pass city inspection? I am in Austin TX.


Such homes are typically past their design life.

They are priced to reflect this.

A home with aluminum wiring was purchased at a discount for that very reason.

Trust me, it would've sold for even more if its wiring was up to snuff.

Our trade is paid to FIX things -- not rationalize along with grieving home owers.

1) Sheet rock is CHEAP.

2) Forty-year old homes were generally pretty drafty. 

The money spent on air conditioning as a result -- but now to be saved -- is enough to make everything pencil out.

3) Bankers would LOVE to advance $$$ so that a total rehab is VERY financeable.

And check out today's interest rates. They're ROCK BOTTOM.

A home ower in this situation would be CRAZY to not re-hab.

He'll get big thanks from his wife, too.

He'll also RECOVER his outlays when it's time to sell. 

So it's not as if it's really costing him anything.

A total re-hab// re-wire is an INVESTMENT -- that sure beats stocks and bonds.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What's wrong with pigtailing? Aluminum conducts electricity fine; connections are the issue.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

99cents said:


> What's wrong with pigtailing? Aluminum conducts electricity fine; connections are the issue.


You just answered your own question.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

TGGT said:


> You just answered your own question.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Connections are accessible. Fix the connections and you're good to go. A rewire is unnecessary.

On what planet do you need to rewire a house in order to sell it?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

telsa said:


> Such homes are typically past their design life.
> 
> They are priced to reflect this.
> 
> ...


Maybe in your world. In my world, anything beyond a can of paint and a splash n dash has questionable return.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

99cents said:


> Connections are accessible. Fix the connections and you're good to go. A rewire is unnecessary.
> 
> On what planet do you need to rewire a house in order to sell it?


If it's going to be inspected it won't pass if they're modifying the system in any way.

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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

99cents said:


> Connections are accessible. Fix the connections and you're good to go. A rewire is unnecessary.
> 
> On what planet do you need to rewire a house in order to sell it?


I've not personally run across it but "I've heard" :laughing: that insurance companies are becoming reluctant to insure a house with aluminum wire to receptacles/lights or if they do they charge more.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Obviously, different areas have different rules.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

surenoproblem said:


> I am asking to support my position on a whole rewire being the only appropriate option.


It's NOT the only appropriate option. And if you tell a customer that, you are a shyster. There are code compliant and generally accepted ways to deal with aluminum wiring and make it safe.

There is nothing wrong with the wiring, the problem is with the connections. They were done wrong, but we have listed and code compliant ways to do them correctly today.

There are tens of thousands of apartment and condo buildings that were built during the time of aluminum, do you really think they are going to strip every wall off of every unit to completely rewire them? Houses with aluminum wiring are the newer houses that I work in and they have drywall. No one wants to rip off the walls like if it was a much older house with plaster.

Now other than "I just don't like it", I will wait for someone to actually show something unsafe about aluminum wiring that was properly pigtailed.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> If it's going to be inspected it won't pass if they're modifying the system in any way.


Is that a Texas thing? What exactly does the law say? You can't upgrade/replace/repair outlets and switches?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It's NOT the only appropriate option. And if you tell a customer that, you are a shyster. There are code compliant and generally accepted ways to deal with aluminum wiring and make it safe.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with the wiring, the problem is with the connections. They were done wrong, but we have listed and code compliant ways to do them correctly today.
> 
> ...


Sure, you can tell the customer to rewire. It might make you feel good but it makes you zero money. Waste of time.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

You know what they say about Texas...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

telsa said:


> Such homes are typically past their design life.
> 
> They are priced to reflect this.
> 
> A home with aluminum wiring was purchased at a discount for that very reason.


You hit the nail on the head. Did the buyer do their homework? How about plumbing and HVAC condition? Many sellers have an unrealistic valuation of their home. You get a real world view when you become a real estate investor. Most HOs don't think about 5-10-20yr maintenance.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

The biggest issue with the homeowner with alum branch circuits .,, they just dont understand there is a approved way to fix the mess.,

there is correct device that is rated for alum wires and they are genrally more expensive or other way is use the splice kit to change from alum to copper but the issue with the latter is the room of the boxes that generally it have to be bigger to accoumaited them.

The other thing what I am aware is insurance they dont like to cover the homes or apartments with alum wire unless they pay extra for it. some won't cover it at all. 

I useally dont have much issue but all it depending on how the homeowner done with them.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Replace the panel and use approved pig tails for all the devices and be done with it.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Is that a Texas thing? What exactly does the law say? You can't upgrade/replace/repair outlets and switches?


I have no idea. I've never come across this situation.

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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks for your input everyone. Here is my sum up

You can pig tail devices and meet code. But your insurance options are cut in half or worse, and the policy isn't the same. Turns to a cash value payout instead of a comparable house replacement. (This all started with an agent wanting numbers to negotiate the price of the house for her clients)

So in a big picture, lets say 25 years, pig tailing is a total waste of everyone's time. At some point insurance wont be available or it will be impractical. Those lugs are still going to come loose in that time and need to be readdressed. 

I doubt they won't remodel something in that time, place is original with florescent recessed kitchen light and all. Its Austin. Its all these people do. 


So yeah, rewire is the only practical way to go.


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## surenoproblem (Dec 24, 2012)

I charged just to look at it. So all you money hungry guys can rest easy. Don't really care for the job either way.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I have no idea. I've never come across this situation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Then I am a bit confused as to why you say it won't pass inspection if modified. It's perfectly code compliant and the normal way to deal with it everywhere else.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

surenoproblem said:


> Thanks for your input everyone. Here is my sum up
> 
> You can pig tail devices and meet code. But your insurance options are cut in half or worse, and the policy isn't the same.
> 
> ...


 This is all based on what? One insurance company?

There is a massive amount of aluminum here, and I have never had a customer or family member who has aluminum have any issue with it, as long as it was brought to code by a licensed electrician.



> Those lugs are still going to come loose in that time and need to be readdressed.


 This is not true and based off of ignorance and gossip.



> So yeah, rewire is the only practical way to go.


No.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Then I am a bit confused as to why you say it won't pass inspection if modified. It's perfectly code compliant and the normal way to deal with it everywhere else.


I was talking out of my ass. I could find out what my local inspectors would say but don't care enough to unless I come across it in the field, which I haven't. Most service work won't be inspected anyway.

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> *I was talking out of my ass*. I could find out what my local inspectors would say but don't care enough to unless I come across it in the field, which I haven't. Most service work won't be inspected anyway.


My asshole just said BURP! :laughing:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

surenoproblem said:


> I charged just to look at it. So all you money hungry guys can rest easy. Don't really care for the job either way.


Can you define "money hungry". I run my own small but full time
shop and I find I'm constantly hungering for money.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

Just slap some AFCI's in there and you're good to go.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Read this https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/516.pdf 
And if you need alumiconn I have plenty


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Total rewires would go down a lot smoother if the home ower realized that upgrading his property is an INVESTMENT that is not money down the drain.

One's home is one of the FEW things that keeps the lady happy and holds its value -- commonly going up in value -- wholly unlike one's truck.

Bankers will not finance a trivial touch-up from an EC.

They WILL go whole hog for a rehab.

And do so at today's rock bottom interest rates.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's ironic, you MAKE money by borrowing at near zero interest rates.

But only so long as the money is used to purchase an asset that holds its real value over time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> Maybe in your world. In my world, anything beyond a can of paint and a splash n dash has a questionable return.


Heck here it might be a note on an inspection report with a recommendation for a service upgrade but it sure won't lower the price any, either you buy it or someone else will.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

surenoproblem said:


> Thanks for your input everyone. Here is my sum up
> 
> You can pig tail devices and meet code. But your insurance options are cut in half or worse, and the policy isn't the same. Turns to a cash value payout instead of a comparable house replacement. (This all started with an agent wanting numbers to negotiate the price of the house for her clients)
> 
> ...


If I were you, I'd say this: 

* Explain the alternatives, the pros and cons, and the costs. 

* Make your recommendation; if you are only willing to do the work on the rewire option, that's perfectly fine, and entirely your call. 

* Hint at the insurance value etc., but don't speak for the insurance companies, just mention there could be issues. 

* Be real careful, but maybe (maybe) hint to the buyer that the seller just wants to sell at the asking price; the realtor just wants to get the transaction with as little discussion as possible; but you have to stand by your work, and they (the buyer) have to live with what they buy. That's not going to make you any friends with the realtor but you can't go doing things you don't want to to make a realtor happy and get a little ****ty work from them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Heck here it might be a note on an inspection report with a recommendation for a service upgrade but it sure won't lower the price any, either you buy it or someone else will.


Exactly. Aluminum wiring is pretty common and doesn't change the value nor affect the homeowners insurance. 

So when I see these people talking about stripping drywall (yes, drywall, not plaster) off an entire house or condo because there is some aluminum wiring, it makes me think they don't have a clue.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

We have run into that here with aluminum wiring on rent houses. Some companies will not write a policy with it and even some renters insurance companies wont write a policy for the tenant!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Some insurance companies here want an inspection by an electrician. They want a guess as to what percentage is aluminum and if there are any areas of concern.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

@;


telsa said:


> It's ironic, you MAKE money by borrowing at near zero interest rates.
> 
> But only so long as the money is used to purchase an asset that holds its real value over time.


Nobody's going to put money into a rewire when they can put it into granite, hardwood and sexy appliances.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

99cents said:


> Some insurance companies here want an inspection by an electrician. They want a guess as to what percentage is aluminum and if there are any areas of concern.


Ya, here too. Plus they want company letterhead signed by an electrician saying the wiring is safe before they grant insurance.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Dark Knight said:


> Ya, here too. Plus they want company letterhead signed by an electrician saying the wiring is safe before they grant insurance.


They want an electrician to sign off on a home he/she didn't wire?
That's insane. I wouldn't do that.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

lighterup said:


> They want an electrician to sign off on a home he/she didn't wire?
> That's insane. I wouldn't do that.


I get asked this a few times a year....one lady even went as far as to trash me online and find my wife and start emailing her trying to manipulate me into doing what she wanted.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

lighterup said:


> They want an electrician to sign off on a home he/she didn't wire?
> That's insane. I wouldn't do that.


I wouldn't sign it without a rewire. 

Insurance companies are crooks.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I can't imagine someone harassing my wife to get what they want, what an asshat. I try to remain as invisible as possible.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Majewski said:


> I get asked this a few times a year....one lady even went as far as to trash me online and find my wife and start emailing her trying to manipulate me into doing what she wanted.


Good grief.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I have gotten several requests to sign something stating that the electrical in a house was safe before a real estate deal is closed. I always say h*** no! 

Then the real estate agents start calling me like telemarketers begging me and re-assuring me that it really does not mean anything and I won't be held liable. Right, and where will they be while I'm sitting in the hot seat of a courtroom. 

I always tell them to call a licensed home inspector if they want an inspection.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

99cents said:


> Some insurance companies here want an inspection by an electrician. They want a guess as to what percentage is aluminum and if there are any areas of concern.





Dark Knight said:


> Ya, here too. Plus they want company letterhead signed by an electrician saying the wiring is safe before they grant insurance.


I will happily work on homes with aluminum wiring. There are a few neighborhoods here where there are some homes that were wired back in the 1970's that have aluminum wiring. Much of what I've seen has been in decent shape as long as it hasn't been altered or modified, but after 40 years or so it's not uncommon to have had many devices replaced with the wrong CU-only devices.

Working on existing aluminum wiring is not a big deal as long as the approved materials are installed properly. I always offer the option of a complete rewire along with the options to repair any deficiencies found in the existing system.

However, I would never under any circumstance provide an insurance company, real estate agent, or anyone else a document stating that a home with aluminum wiring is safe. The aluminum wiring has nothing to do with that. It's just that I would never assume the liability of stating that a system wired by someone else is safe.

If they want a document that says the wiring in a home is safe they can have the permit card following the final inspection after a new service and rewire, that's about as close as it gets.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I bought HO insurance this year from a new carrier.
The only electrical question was "do you have fuses or breakers". 
I was a bit miffed they even asked about the panel.
Fuses work just as well or better than breakers. I guess their issue is people replacing fuses with higher amp rated each time one blows.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

John Valdes said:


> I bought HO insurance this year from a new carrier.
> The only electrical question was "do you have fuses or breakers".
> I was a bit miffed they even asked about the panel.
> Fuses work just as well or better than breakers. I guess their issue is people replacing fuses with higher amp rated each time one blows.


You're being entered into their database.

For the fire insurance industry, the matter is unresolved.

Once the stats show a bump in risk ( loses ) up go your rates.

It's nothing personal.

BTW, the industry doesn't care about the physics -- just financial outcomes.

Failure modes being multivariate, of course.


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## elecwired (Jul 24, 2017)

Having replaced a Zinsco panel on a recent update that was fead by alum
wiring that did not even have oxide paste on the Main Breaker connection. The pros and cons on alumina wiring virus copper is always a factor to consider on replacement choice. Usually older rural 100 year old farm homes that have been built onto with many additions are the hardest to update because you never know what may be buried and lurking behind closed walls. With 43 years experience I have seen some shoddy wiring that was much better off disconnected and totally rewired and updated


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

There is a universal engineering principle: Design Life.

The other principle: Fail Safe.

Edison Lamps are fail safe. They break the circuit when they fault. They don't generate bolted shorts.

However, most other elements in field wiring DON'T fail safe.

They generate bolted shorts, as a matter of fact. ( failure mode -- not success mode )

Zinsco panels were and are notorious for this failure mode.

K&T has the nasty property of leaving Hots, hot, even when things are going south.

K&T was run before circuits were bonded back to the OCPD. 

Zap !

I've seen K&T -- with exposed conductors -- run right over a shower stall... and lowly, too.

DIY Hell, I'd say.

We can't make a dime defending ancient work... so why make the effort ?


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

This is another one for the series-parallel arc fault guys if you believe it actually works.!
Don't have to break open the walls until the run can't be reset and the wire's burnt back !
Seen that when you open the receptacle box the wire insulation is gone or falling off with the burn and it's break the wall open ..to raise the box up or over ...to get clean wire for the fix.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

There are code compliant ways to use aluminum but they mean very little when insurance companies with a hard on for aluminum wire enter into to the mix. I just ran into this on an older home as I had to tear out and replace a very excellent old school pipe job boxed with aluminum AC wire to a few furnaces and firematic switches. The firematics were no longer needed as the house had been changed from oil to gas so they came out as did the aluminum AC feeds from the panels.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

lighterup said:


> They want an electrician to sign off on a home he/she didn't wire?
> That's insane. I wouldn't do that.


I don't even want to sign off on the houses I do wire.


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