# Kitchen lighting layout



## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

drose2186 said:


> Hey guys - I have my first "big" job - Kitchen remodel. For the life of me I can't figure a good layout for recessed can lighting.
> 
> 8' ceilings with 36" uppers. (Pic shows 42")
> Rectangle in middle of kitchen is an island
> ...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Can someone crack open that image and post it?


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## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

*Pic*


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## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/drose2186/Kitchremod_zpssdeunceb.jpg

Maybe this will work


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

drose2186 said:


> http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/drose2186/Kitchremod_zpssdeunceb.jpg
> 
> Maybe this will work


That works! A total of 8 fixtures above the traffic area around the island.


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## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

*placement*



99cents said:


> That works! A total of 8 fixtures above the traffic area around the island.


1st- out from range approx. 30" out from wall
2nd - out from corner cabinet approx. 30" from both sides
3rd - out from refrigerator approx. 48"
4th/5th - pendant lights above island
6th? - flush mount light above sink
7th/8th? one behind and one to the left?

there will be 2 chairs on back of island 

My issue is with placement I'm afraid I will make it look like i just installed lights wherever. Can't really seam to find a solid pattern


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I don't want to sound like debbie downer here but, this isn't about minimum code placement of receptacles or centering a fixture in a room... since when is it the electrician's job to design the ceiling fixture layout?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I try to pass the buck and get the client to design it. As long as it's code and I can accomplish it, I don't get blamed for the design! lol


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## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't want to sound like debbie downer here but, this isn't about minimum code placement of receptacles or centering a fixture in a room... since when is it the electrician's job to design the ceiling fixture layout?


Hey, Debbie. I'm in a situation and just looking for a little advice - that's all.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't want to sound like debbie downer here but, this isn't about minimum code placement of receptacles or centering a fixture in a room... since when is it the electrician's job to design the ceiling fixture layout?


When you do a kichen reno, Debbie.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

drose2186 said:


> 1st- out from range approx. 30" out from wall
> 2nd - out from corner cabinet approx. 30" from both sides
> 3rd - out from refrigerator approx. 48"
> 4th/5th - pendant lights above island
> ...


Straight lines. 4 lined up with the centres of the island, 4 in the corners, placed more or less in the centre of the traffic area.

Be aware, I have had customers change the position of the island once the cabinets roll in. They need to be aware that you are following the drawings. A signature after rough-in inspection isn't a bad idea but I have never asked for it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drose2186 said:


> Hey, Debbie. I'm in a situation and just looking for a little advice - that's all.


First off welcome aboard!

Secondly while I understand your request, once you get a few of these under your proverbial belt you will see the benefit of what "Debbie" brought up. Once installed with out serious input from the HO you will be the guy responsible for any issue they ever feel they have with lighting.

If you want to be a hero instead of a zero with the customer let them have as much or all the input on the lighting design as possible.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

If it were me doing it I would have 5 or 6 - 6" recess cans about 32" - 42" out from the cabinets evenly spaced around the L shape of the kitchen, 1 pendant or can above the sink and 2 pendants above the island. Cans on 1 switch, island lights on 1 switch and sink light on a 3rd switch.
Ive done it this way countless times and never had a complaint.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

drspec said:


> If it were me doing it I would have 5 or 6 - 6" recess cans about 32" - 42" out from the cabinets evenly spaced around the L shape of the kitchen, 1 pendant or can above the sink and 2 pendants above the island. Cans on 1 switch, island lights on 1 switch and sink light on a 3rd switch.
> Ive done it this way countless times and never had a complaint.



^^^^:thumbsup:


General room , and site specific lighting :thumbsup:

I might only add UC lights to this...

~CS~


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> ^^^^:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> General room , and site specific lighting :thumbsup:
> ...


I agree about adding under cabinet lighting but OP didn't mention that in his post


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I would, as MechD proposed, leave that up to the customer Doc

It's your _thought process_ that appreciable , very much the shtick of those _highly trained lighting shop ladies _ that grace our lowly trade with their gifted presence....

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't get this. Where is this magic lighting design going to come from? An engineer, an interior designer, an IES dude, the HO, the contractor? Tell me how this works because now I'm thinking I have it wrong. Am I supposed just to do whatever the HO says, who is probably completely stupid at lighting?

Sorry, I'm not a new construction drone who blindly works off drawings. I need to be a little more creative than that for the business I'm in.

My customers look to me for advice. I'm the guy with experience. Of course I'm going to review things with the HO, that's only good business, but, ultimately, I'm supposed to be the guy who knows what he's talking about.

Drspec is talking about illuminating the "L" around the island and I'm talking about the complete box. Otherwise, we agree.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I don't get this. Where is this *magic lighting design* going to come from? An engineer, an interior designer, an IES dude, the HO, the contractor?


Far be it us lowly_ three toed romex sloths_ should rise up on our hind legs and speak _coherently_ to such lofty entities who have evolved to sit at the right hand of God 99.....



:shifty:~CS~


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'd feel fine at this point going to the customer with what you got here. In this case, I would go over @chicken steve 's terminology, room lighting and task lighting, the L plan @drspec proposed as option 1, and the square plan @99cents proposed as option 2. BUT I wouldn't do anything without writing something up and attaching a sketch and getting a signature. 

But any interior decorating I can pawn off, I pawn off, especially if you're dealing with a ball buster, or someone who will require 45 emails to decide what they want. Before I went to work on this I'd tell the homeowner to see if the kitchen designer would like to add some cans around the island and pendants over the island and sink to the drawing, and spec the lights. Let them deal with the agonizing over burnt orange versus orangish brown accents on the pendants etc. with the homeowner.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Kitchen renos are expensive. A few extra cans aren't deal killers. When it comes to kitchen lighting, more is better. Dim it and give the HO whatever switching options he wants.

The cans are for general illumination. The pendants are considered decorative. There should be three pendants. There's something about human psychology that comes into play here. We like odd numbers.

I usually put pendants at 2/3 above the island, not dead centre.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Kitchen renos are expensive. A few extra cans aren't deal killers. When it comes to kitchen lighting, more is better. Dim it and give the HO whatever switching options he wants.


That's a good point, it would work out fine either way, it might not even be worth presenting the option and inviting a lot of hemming and hawing over the decision.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Yep, add a pendant or can over the sink and 2 over the island. Undercabinate (and over cabinate it there is a hold off) on a dimmer is really nice 

DO get the HO on board with your layout BEFORE you start.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> Yep, add a pendant or can over the sink and 2 over the island. Undercabinate (and over cabinate it there is a hold off) on a dimmer is really nice
> 
> DO get the HO on board with your layout BEFORE you start.


Yep. I have had tricky areas where I have hung up one or two Lotus Lights temporarily and left them up overnight for the HO to decide.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

If there's room, 3 pendants are nice too.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't want to sound like debbie downer here but, this isn't about minimum code placement of receptacles or centering a fixture in a room... since when is it the electrician's job to design the ceiling fixture layout?


In every single kitchen I do.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would go with 7 or 8. I might skip the one in the entryway. I like the 3 small pendant idea also.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> In every single kitchen I do.


How often do you get asked to move a fixture?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How often do you get asked to move a fixture?


Never, unless they move the island a bit. But I make the gc or owner put an X on the floor so they know it is their deal, same thing with pool table and dining room lights. 
Who else would design it? The owner? the GC? and interior designer? What do they know about lighting and what works. With recess lights it is not a very big deal at all. they can be willy nilly and still do a good job. 
I go over my ideas and why I do what I do with the owner or GC but only so they are not surprised.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How often do you get asked to move a fixture?


Sometimes, like when the HO wants to change the island location when the cabinetry is going in. That's not on the contractor.

It also happens when the dining room table is brought in and the chandelier doesn't line up. That fixture location is ALWAYS up to the customer.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

It's common for trades to do their own design work, especially in single family residential. 

The cautions about getting the HO & GC to approve it in writing are indicated. There should be some sort of disclaimer that deviations from the plan may result in T&M charges if rework or additional work is required as a result of the change.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Never, unless they move the island a bit. But I make the gc or owner put an X on the floor so they know it is their deal, same thing with pool table and dining room lights.
> Who else would design it? The owner? the GC? and interior designer? What do they know about lighting and what works. With recess lights it is not a very big deal at all. they can be willy nilly and still do a good job.
> I go over my ideas and why I do what I do with the owner or GC but only so they are not surprised.


Agreed. Recessed lights aren't a huge concern but moving an island can sure screw up your pendants. I do the X's as well and shoot them at the ceiling with a laser plumb so everybody knows exactly where they will be.

I had a job where we had a big discussion about lighting with the interior designer and the client. I put them exactly where they wanted and then they moved the island. Nobody wanted to pay to move the fixtures so they stayed. It looked awful.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Sometimes, like when the HO wants to change the island location when the cabinetry is going in. That's not on the contractor.
> 
> It also happens when the dining room table is brought in and the chandelier doesn't line up. That fixture location is ALWAYS up to the customer.





sbrn33 said:


> Never, unless they move the island a bit. But I make the gc or owner put an X on the floor so they know it is their deal, same thing with pool table and dining room lights.
> Who else would design it? The owner? the GC? and interior designer? What do they know about lighting and what works. With recess lights it is not a very big deal at all. they can be willy nilly and still do a good job.
> I go over my ideas and why I do what I do with the owner or GC but only so they are not surprised.


All I can say is you guys have had it way better than you can possibly realize. 

You haven't lived until you have had experience with the 'Real Housewives of New Jersey or New York'.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I understand there are know-it-all clients whose only concern is impressing their snooty friends with their home renos. They hire interior designers and it's up to the designers to fight those battles. We just stand back and do what we're told.

For the less than Gucci crowd, we are involved.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> I understand there are know-it-all clients whose only concern is impressing their snooty friends with their home renos. They hire interior designers and it's up to the designers to fight those battles. We just stand back and do what we're told.
> 
> For the less than Gucci crowd, we are involved.


Like I said you have no idea. 

The typical NJ-NY woman-baby I'm talking about has all the money to hire all the top professionals but still has the self esteem attitude to believe they know vastly more than any professional they hire. 

When all is said and done no decision they made that they don't care for could possibly be their own fault no matter how many times they signed off on it. Any problem they perceive is still your fault.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Like I said you have no idea.
> 
> The typical NJ-NY woman-baby I'm talking about has all the money to hire all the top professionals but still has the self esteem attitude to believe they know vastly more than any professional they hire.
> 
> When all is said and done no decision they made that they don't care for could possibly be their own fault no matter how many times they signed off on it. Any problem they perceive is still your fault.


That's probably the scenario splatz is talking about. Pawn it off on a designer. The designer will get it wrong but at least it's not _your_ wrong.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> That's probably the scenario splatz is talking about. Pawn it off on a designer. The designer will get it wrong but at least it's not _your_ wrong.


Very much so. While in terms of my electrical career I have limited resi experience the vast majority of it was in that area with those witches.

Many times I felt serious sympathy for their husbands and house staff that had to live with them.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

​


MikeFL said:


> It's common for trades to do their own design work, especially in single family residential.
> 
> The cautions about getting the HO & GC to approve it in writing are indicated. There should be some sort of disclaimer that deviations from the plan may result in T&M charges if rework or additional work is required as a result of the change.


I will go one further and say that IME, with custom single family dwellings, it is quite rare for the architects drawings to be adhered two in kitchen lighting.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Very much so. While in terms of my electrical career I have limited resi experience the vast majority of it was in that area with those witches.
> 
> Many times I felt serious sympathy for their husbands and house staff that had to live with them.


Those witches who are the kind who consider tradesmen pond scum. No thanks. I don't make my money lying on my back with rich guys.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Very much so. While in terms of my electrical career I have limited resi experience the vast majority of it was in that area with those witches.
> 
> Many times I felt serious sympathy for their husbands and house staff that had to live with them.


I know a woman who made a ton off a rich guy, and I mean a ton, better than your average lottery. You probably know the type. There's no way I would work for that crowd. They are completely effed up.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Those witches who are the kind who consider tradesmen pond scum. No thanks. I don't make my money lying on my back with rich guys.


Most are like that but a few (that had blue collar fathers) can be nice to you and just evil to the rest of the world. 

But don't let that fool you into thinking if you could be wrong they wouldn't jump on you like a tiger on a fawn.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Most are like that but a few (that had blue collar fathers) can be nice to you and just evil to the rest of the world.
> 
> But don't let that fool you into thinking if you could be wrong they wouldn't jump on you like a tiger on a fawn.


That was a cool tangent, wasn't it, Mech? 

Here's the kind of client I like. I start her kitchen next week:

They are empty nesters. She has been putting money away for years for her new kitchen. With the kids gone, she can finally do it. The husband is hands off; it's her money to spend. She is careful with her budget but understands that renos always cost more than planned. She has given me her electrical budget and I'm giving her the best bang for her buck. I'm expecting a snag free job  .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> I know a woman who made a ton off a rich guy, and I mean a ton, better than your average lottery. You probably know the type. There's no way I would work for that crowd. They are completely effed up.


I lived right in the heart of the area they live in, mostly summer / weekend homes for NYC rich dwellers combined with lesser millionaires that lived there full time and the husbands commuted to the city. 

My BIL lived a couple miles up the road from the oceanfront.

I did the bidding for jobs and would add in large PIA multipliers and still got most of the jobs we bid. 

Pre-planning is the way to go.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> All I can say is you guys have had it way better than you can possibly realize.
> 
> You haven't lived until you have had experience with the 'Real Housewives of New Jersey or New York'.


There's always been a tendency for money to go to people's heads, and it seems to be contagious because in social circles with a lot of people with a lot of money, it's a lot more common for it to go to their head. 

Now in New Jersey / NYC metro area, I don't know if it's the overcrowding or the toxic affects of all that hair gel ad hair spray in the water system, but people are all more difficult and contentious than normal and there is a lot of money floating around so the effect is visibly amplified. 

My problem is these days, the media - the reality shows in particular - are so flooded with the DIVA personality type that a lot of people think it's OK to be that way and even something to model yourself after. People are a lot more monkey-see monkey-do than I realized. They don't see that on TV and feel sorry for the miserable bitches or even just take guilty pleasure in laughing at their tribulations, they pick a maladjusted wretch on the cast to identify with and start conducting themselves in the world like that goof. 

So thanks to the Bravo network you don't have to be in Manhattan working for some trust fund baby or bankster's wife to have a high probability of running into a high maintenance pain in the ass. I have heard they even have Divas in Minnesota now for Pete's sake.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I've done 2 jobs in 10 years that had prints with electrical drawings, and both were commercial.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

There are two things I don't like about this design.
1. The refrigerator space is only 33" wide, a full size refrigerator is 36"
2. The microwave shelf and cabinet is 15" deep, this makes it very difficult to access the wall cabinet to the right of the microwave. The area between the refrigerator and microwave is a poor design.

I'll post some renderings later today.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

3DDesign said:


> There are two things I don't like about this design.
> 1. The refrigerator space is only 33" wide, a full size refrigerator is 36"
> 2. The microwave shelf and cabinet is 15" deep, this makes it very difficult to access the wall cabinet to the right of the microwave. The area between the refrigerator and microwave is a poor design.
> 
> I'll post some renderings later today.


What software do you use for renderings?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

3DDesign said:


> There are two things I don't like about this design.
> 1. The refrigerator space is only *33*" wide, a full size refrigerator is *36*"
> .


Coupla guys, and a running start....no problemo......~C:jester:S~


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Coupla guys, and a running start....no problemo......~C:jester:S~


That's what they had to do on the last house I did. Custom made cabinets, the fridge was 36 1/8, and the opening was 36 1/8 at the bottom and 36 3/8 at the top. It pretty much took a running start. There was also a 1/16" of play on the dual fuel range. :laughing:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> What software do you use for renderings?


Chief Architect Premier X9


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> That's probably the scenario splatz is talking about. Pawn it off on a designer. The designer will get it wrong but at least it's not _your_ wrong.


Having experienced high end ski bunny McMansions lousy with archy's, engineers, lighting designers (_cue star wars bar scene cast_) I can honestly say there's a lot of $$$ to be made via their collective _chest puffing condescending 'tudes._:notworthy:

They ALL end up playing the _blame game_ btw, while yours truly did his best Forest Gump invoicing it all _repetitively _:thumbsup:

~C(_Lights r like a box o' chocolates_)S~

:jester:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

3DDesign said:


> Chief Architect Premier X9


$2700?!?! Guess I'll stick to drawing little circles on the kitchen plan drawings. :laughing: Your renderings and such do look good though, that's for sure!


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> $2700?!?! Guess I'll stick to drawing little circles on the kitchen plan drawings. :laughing: Your renderings and such do look good though, that's for sure!


I bought it in 1997 for $1,000
The yearly License renewal is $450


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Here's the area next to the refrigerator.







[/url]forum kitch 3 by ProImagespa1, on Flickr[/IMG]








[/url]forum kitch 2 by ProImagespa1, on Flickr[/IMG]








[/url]forum kitch 1 by ProImagespa1, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Use you mouse or move your phone to explore the panorama, go around 360º
https://accounts.chiefarchitect.com/360/043251370072058


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I could see owning that if you were selling the whole kitchen, but just for the electrical. Wow. That is more than QB's


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> I could see owning that if you were selling the whole kitchen, but just for the electrical. Wow. That is more than QB's


I draw the entire house inside and out. To do a complete 3,000 sq ft house it takes me about 6 hours. It's worth the time because it avoids problems and it sells a lot of extras. The customers see it in 3D, they want more.
To draw the kitchen above took about 20 minutes


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

3DDesign said:


> I draw the entire house inside and out. To do a complete 3,000 sq ft house it takes me about 6 hours. It's worth the time because it avoids problems and it sells a lot of extras. The customers see it in 3D, they want more.
> To draw the kitchen above took about 20 minutes


I can see where it puts you in a wholly elevated market niche... so that you recover your outlay many times over.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The cost of the software is just chump change, half a tank of gas a month costs that much. The investment of time to get where you can draw that kitchen in 20 minutes - that's considerable. The advantage that would give you over competition in the high end or even middle of the road residential market - priceless. This is the kind of thing that lets you win business without being the lowest price.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

splatz said:


> The cost of the software is just chump change, half a tank of gas a month costs that much. The investment of time to get where you can draw that kitchen in 20 minutes - that's considerable. The advantage that would give you over competition in the high end or even middle of the road residential market - priceless. This is the kind of thing that lets you win business without being the lowest price.


You must have a very big tank.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> There's always been a tendency for money to go to people's heads, and it seems to be contagious because in social circles with a lot of people with a lot of money, it's a lot more common for it to go to their head.
> 
> Now in New Jersey / NYC metro area, I don't know if it's the overcrowding or the toxic affects of all that hair gel ad hair spray in the water system, but people are all more difficult and contentious than normal and there is a lot of money floating around so the effect is visibly amplified.
> 
> ...



There is so much more to this than you can imagine. 

Basically the town of Deal (NJ) is all mansions on the oceanfront and right on through the rest of the town west scaling back to mcmansions as you get away from the beach. 

The towns that surround it are almost as bad. The overall population in the area is Syrian Jewish people. They came south from Brooklyn and Manhattan for summers and have gradually immigrated there. The richest in Deal and the lesser heeled folks in the surrounding towns. 

These people were all born with attitudes.


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## drose2186 (Mar 29, 2017)

3DDesign said:


> There are two things I don't like about this design.
> 1. The refrigerator space is only 33" wide, a full size refrigerator is 36"
> 2. The microwave shelf and cabinet is 15" deep, this makes it very difficult to access the wall cabinet to the right of the microwave. The area between the refrigerator and microwave is a poor design.
> 
> I'll post some renderings later today.


When the customer gave me the layout I did mention the microwave area issue but they decided to keep the design.:blink:

I like the layout of the lights :thumbsup:
the opening at left of range is a doorway to a den and the opening behind the island is a 6' walkthrough opening into the dining room


Given that information would you keep the lighting layout?


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

drose2186 said:


> When the customer gave me the layout I did mention the microwave area issue but they decided to keep the design.:blink:
> 
> I like the layout of the lights :thumbsup:
> the opening at left of range is a doorway to a den and the opening behind the island is a 6' walkthrough opening into the dining room
> ...


I would try to keep something similar to it. Of course it's going to depend on floor joists, duct work, and plumbing in that ceiling. I would install under cabinet lighting. It's good task lighting but it's also nice to use at night with nothing else on. I also like using two 4" cans at the kitchen sink, I think they fit in proportionally.


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