# Word of caution on Induction



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Some interesting finds during testing of different manufacturers of Induction ballasts and bulbs.

Manufacturers we are testing:

Fulham
MHT
Global Lighting
YML
Kumho

So far, it appears most of the higher wattage bulbs< 55W, require a substantial burn in time, to reach optium performance. 

70W Circular, 120V input. Initial consumption, 85W

After:

2hrs 82W
4hrs 85W
6hrs 82W
8hrs 82W
24Hrs 75W

testing 100W and 80W now.

so far, 100W after 26hrs.....117W

And, 80W YML Induction, PF of .81, at 108W after 2hrs burn-in.

I wouldn't recommend buying an Induction fixture and trying to prove to a customer how much energy it uses by plugging it in with a KWH meter.

More to come....


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Some interesting finds during testing of different manufacturers of Induction ballasts and bulbs.
> 
> Manufacturers we are testing:
> 
> ...


Cool facts thanks..:thumbup:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Over 4 hrs in:

YMT 80W 92W

MHT 100W Flood 117W



Hmmmm.....


wiz, we need to test that 100W/80W wallpack from ebay next time around.


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

All of the induction manufacturers we sell product for state the actual wattage used...for example, a 80 watt induction garage fixture will actually use 92 watts including the ballast.

A 200 watt induction fixture will actually draw 220 watts, etc...

So I am a little confused to what you think you have found?


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

cself123 said:


> All of the induction manufacturers we sell product for state the actual wattage used...for example, a 80 watt induction garage fixture will actually use 92 watts including the ballast.
> 
> A 200 watt induction fixture will actually draw 220 watts, etc...
> 
> So I am a little confused to what you think you have found?


He is saying that the advertised/spec wattage is only true after full burn in.

So just assume 5% for the ballast, 70w is advertised at 74w. However, it isn't 74w until a long burn in period has been reached. That's all.

They are slightly more efficient than mh/hps, yet have 5x's the life. That's the real selling point, reduced maintenance. Though they aren't quite as efficient in comparison as advertised.


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

svh19044 said:


> He is saying that the advertised/spec wattage is only true after full burn in.
> 
> So just assume 5% for the ballast, 70w is advertised at 74w. However, it isn't 74w until a long burn in period has been reached. That's all.
> 
> They are slightly more efficient than mh/hps, yet have 5x's the life. That's the real selling point, reduced maintenance. Though they aren't quite as efficient in comparison as advertised.


Slightly more efficient than MH/HPS? Slightly would be 10% more efficient, we are talking more like 40-50% more efficient than HID. Depending on the application. We have parking garages that have better light levels than before and they use a 80 watt induction garage fixture, which draws 92 watts to replace the existing 175 w MH fixture that was previously drawing 190 watts. 

Just as a 400 watt metal halide fixture does not draw 400 watts, it is more like 440 watts+ 

My induction manufacturers claim 92 watts usage on an 80 watt circular lamp, and when plugged in they use within a watt or two of 92 watts. 

I think maybe what you are eluding to is certain brands claiming they only draw 80 watts period.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

cself123 said:


> I think maybe what you are eluding to is certain brands claiming they only draw 80 watts period.


I am eluding to what was talked about in the original post with certain induction ballast manufacturers/resellers/whatever stating that their ballast will operate at 5-10% over the bulb wattage, when in reality, it is considerably more until a full burn is reached. I think you are just looking too deep in to what is being claimed.

(slightly being subjective, some claim as high as 60%, with others at 20%, point being, energy savings alone might not sell them).


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the OP was referring to another thread, sorry!


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

This really makes no sense at all. All ballast use energy. NEw Inductions have some of the best effieciencies out there. Your splitting hairs. A 200 watt MH probably draws around 230-240. The inductions I use for a 200 watt bulb draw about 212.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

cself123 said:


> All of the induction manufacturers we sell product for state the actual wattage used...for example, a 80 watt induction garage fixture will actually use 92 watts including the ballast.


Have you actually measured it to be sure?




cself123 said:


> A 200 watt induction fixture will actually draw 220 watts, etc...


Again, I bet it doesn't. Based on what I am finding, I wouldn't be surprised if your 200W Induction draws overs 235W. 



cself123 said:


> So I am a little confused to what you think you have found?


I found what appears to be "creative" marketing by manufacturers. On the higher wattage bulbs, the amount of difference between the printed consumption and the actual measured consumption can vary by a whopping amount.

I have 70W stuff that claims to consume 74W. It doesn't, it is way over this amount.

I have 100W stuff that has published consumption of 106W. It doesn't. It runs at 117-120, only after warming up. 

I doubt this is driver/ballast losses, as I think it is more lack of QC by the bulb manufacturers, because the load of Induction is driven by the bulb, and not the ballast.

Tell me whose products you sell, and I'll tell you what how they perform against everyone else if I have them in the shop.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Cletis said:


> This really makes no sense at all. All ballast use energy. NEw Inductions have some of the best effieciencies out there. Your splitting hairs. A 200 watt MH probably draws around 230-240. The inductions I use for a 200 watt bulb draw about 212.


Inductions are effiecent, but only compared to energy hogs like MH, MV or HPS. Induction bulbs have a long way to go. They will be more effiecent when they slim down the bulbs. They are fat, like a T-12. The next generation should be smaller like the T-5 or T-8. The width of the Induction bulb limits it's effectiveness. The slimmer the fluorescent bulb, the more effecient it is. Think T-5 vs T-12. Less light being reflected back into the bulb.


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> Inductions are effiecent, but only compared to energy hogs like MH, MV or HPS. Induction bulbs have a long way to go. They will be more effiecent when they slim down the bulbs. They are fat, like a T-12. The next generation should be smaller like the T-5 or T-8. The width of the Induction bulb limits it's effectiveness. The slimmer the fluorescent bulb, the more effecient it is. Think T-5 vs T-12. Less light being reflected back into the bulb.



And look how much less reliable the T-5 is compared to the T-12, too much heat.

We use Neptun and Everlast fixtures for induction lighting.

When you are talking a couple of watts on warmup and burn in, you are really splitting hairs...so what if a 200 watt induction fixture on initial is using 235 watts...it replaced a 400 watt metal halide that was using 456 watts. And the light doesn't depreciate nearly as fast.

I really think you are making a big deal out of nothing here sir.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

cself123 said:


> And look how much less reliable the T-5 is compared to the T-12, too much heat.


Huh? T-5 with the right driver is awesome. Pricy maybe.




cself123 said:


> We use Neptun and Everlast fixtures for induction lighting.


I bought a 200W neptune shoebox. It's ugly and the light doesn't come close to a 400hps. The reflectors are were of a heavy paper type substrate with a mirror coating of some sort applied on it. As soon as you try to bend it, it flaked like a heavy paint. 
Everlast are the cats meow. Pricey, but they have a 5yr parts and labor warrenty, where no-one else offers labor included. They have done the NJ parkway and turnpike. I have their catalogs also.




cself123 said:


> When you are talking a couple of watts on warmup and burn in, you are really splitting hairs...so what if a 200 watt induction fixture on initial is using 235 watts...it replaced a 400 watt metal halide that was using 456 watts. And the light doesn't depreciate nearly as fast.


I think you're missing my point....

Published numbers of 100W wallpacks, floods, shoeboxes...ect, claim the total consumption is 106-110W. They claim this is standard, ie...10 watts per hundred. 

They don't, from what I test on the bench.

They run about 10-20% above that.

When you try and prove ROI or payback based on consumption, you better have the right numbers to prove it. 



cself123 said:


> I really think you are making a big deal out of nothing here sir.


To you maybe. However, you'd look pretty stupid if you tried selling someone a bunch of canopy lights and they said plug it in and let me see for myself. 
You plug it in, and for 2 hours it reads over 130W.

They now think you're a snake oil salesman......

FWIW.....


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Well now I can rest knowing how ill informed you are...

First of all, the Neptun fixtures we have are of extremely high quality, equal if not better than many of the Everlast fixtures. They use a metal reflector not a paper material, and have had no issue replacing 400 watt HPS with 200 watt whatsoever. Aluminum anodized reflector as seen below on there spec list.



Zero Light Pollution (ZLP) design
Heat and impact resistant tempered glass lens
Aluminum housing with electrocoat brown paint
Ballasts made of long life components
InstantON(TM) flicker-free Cold Start and Hot Re-Start
Correlated Color Temperature of 5000 K for greater visibility
High Power Factor, Low THD Replaceable Ballast
Concealed continuous gasket seals against harmful dust, dirt, moisture and insects
ETL Listed for Wet Locations
Advanced phosphors for high Lumen Maintenance and high lumen output
Aluminum Anodized reflectors for superior long term performance
Up to 20 years Maintenance free operation
IP-65 Rated
EPA Rating = 0.78
Mounting Standard: 6” Side Arm (Pole) -SA6 or 6” Wall Mount (Wall) -WM6, 6" Round Pole Adapter (Round Pole) - SA6R
Light Sensor Detector (LD) - optional
Motion Sensor Detector (MD) - optional
10 Year Warranty


2nd of all, Everlast has a 10 year, 60,000 hour warranty on parts and parts only, no labor at all. You are completely misinformed and incorrect, check their website, we are a distributor for them as well.
http://everlastlight.com/terms_and_conditions.html

We have seen nothing but trouble and high maintenance as far as T-5 goes, lamps and ballasts out within 6 months of initial operation. Burning up sockets etc...

We still have T-12 ballasts and lamps that are dated from 30 years ago coming in, that just now quit. T-5 technology 2-3 years is really pushing it as far as an average goes.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

cself123 said:


> Well now I can rest knowing how ill informed you are...


:thumbsup:



cself123 said:


> First of all, the Neptun fixtures we have are of extremely high quality, equal if not better than many of the Everlast fixtures. They use a metal reflector not a paper material, and have had no issue replacing 400 watt HPS with 200 watt whatsoever. Aluminum anodized reflector as seen below on there spec list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mispoke. Mine are Nuvuee. not Neptune.





cself123 said:


> 2nd of all, Everlast has a 10 year, 60,000 hour warranty on parts and parts only, no labor at all. You are completely misinformed and incorrect, check their website, we are a distributor for them as well.
> http://everlastlight.com/terms_and_conditions.html


I'll have to call my rep. He told me 10yr, with the first 5 being parts ad labor, on cobra heads.





cself123 said:


> We still have T-12 ballasts and lamps that are dated from 30 years ago coming in, that just now quit. T-5 technology 2-3 years is really pushing it as far as an average goes.


A T-12 bulb lasting 30 yrs?

Really..


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Use Incandescent.. They use less power as they grow old...


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## cself123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes we often see T-12's that are 20-30 years old that were in stairwells or hallways and never cycled on or off, they will last years and years as long as they are not switched on and off.

Your rep is mistaken unless he is the one covering the labor for the first 5 years, because we have been told directly from Everlast...no labor warranty.

I will say this, you are correct, if a manufacturer is saying their 100 watt fixture draws 107 watts, and it is really using 117 watts, they need to state that...but 10 watts is going to barely factor into an ROI, when the energy savings should realistically be 30%-60% depending on the application. We are talking days in difference as far as ROI goes not months or years when you are talking such small amounts of wattage.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Good stuff to be aware of, thanks. I did not know of a burn in time on induction, so it would be nice to set that expectation if they are bill watching.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Good stuff to be aware of, thanks. I did not know of a burn in time on induction, so it would be nice to set that expectation if they are bill watching.


The 70W is way off their numbers.

At start it pulled 90w for an hour, then bounced around 84-86W for the next 4 hrs. It drifted down to 82W and held that for the last 4hrs we took readings. At 8 the next morning, it was reading 75W. That's 20hrs.....

I expected them to start again, after shutting them off for 24hrs, around 80W and drift down to 75W in an hour........nope.

So f you calculated this for a 12hr shift, you can't use the published 74W, you have to use 86W. 

The small stuff....40W+55W C, run at 40W and 57W. The 55W drifts down to 50W after 24hrs on. 

Why the difference in larger 70W and above???????? Beats me....


I'm convinced these things are ideal for tunnel, parking garages and other applications where power stays on all the time.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*numbers*

those are probably cheap inferior chinese ballast. I measure when I fire up and the differences are not that great


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Cletis said:


> those are probably cheap inferior chinese ballast. I measure when I fire up and the differences are not that great


Actually, as I understand things, most everything is assembled in China, not Chinese made. Most all Induction bulbs are Chinese made. Most in the market are made by one company. Ballasts/Drivers and the quality of the magnets on the coils are the only different pieces tha vary.

Most drivers are made in India, Taiwan, Phillipines.....and shipped to china for assembly. Then shipped as units from there.

Who do you know that makes any Induction drivers and bulbs here?

I believe the Phillips line is made in Mexico.


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## TechnoEvanGuy (Jan 22, 2011)

In the orginial post was an evaluation of energy consumption tied to burn-in time. Another piece which is missing is the output of the fixture after burn-in. Not all fixtures are made the same nor operate the same. So the test is appropriate but is it just about energy or delivered lumens on the floor, fixture separation. If you believe what many of the importers are saying about induction first ask them if they can give you ohm's law, then ask if they can tell you what the difference is between KVA and KW. If they can, well just maybe they understand energy. I require my projects to be burned in for 50hours prior to install. My stereo speakers require 80 to hit peak performance so a little less for light is making sure the install is spot on from day 1.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

http://www.bulbscanada.com/ 
Mostly made in china but from want I've experienced they work fine and last longer..


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