# Speeding Up Troubleshooting



## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

I was wondering if there were any techniques or tools you guys can recommend for speeding up troubleshooting circuits in a house.

This is my old school way for troubleshooting let's say a single circuit that is having problems like a light that goes on and off on its own. 

Steps are disconnect the wiring for that branch at the panel. Try to find the problem at every junction box, outlet, lamp fixture, switch doing point-to-point continuity etc. involved with that one circuit. Some junctions are hard to find especially houses that have had multiple renovations and can be very time consuming. 

Is there a faster way? I have a tone generator probe, that sometimes is helpful. I know you can buy or rent tracing tools to locate problems in underground trenches. I just have a feeling there are no faster ways but I thought I'd ask.

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Also, related on the same issue, but not just one light flickering, but all the lights in a house flickering. It's been an on-going problem ever since the place was built so about 10 years now and I'm out of ideas for determining the problem.

First, the utility company has come by to check their connections and they have verified everything is proper and tight, and checked their transformers, probably the drop to the pole and meter base as well.

I checked the connections at the main panel and sub panels and they are all tight, especially the neutrals. The neutral bars and bonding bars all looked good. Not sure what else the cause could be. 

Any thoughts?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The primary way that you speed up troubleshooting is by NOT going down the wrong alley.

One example of terrible troubleshooting:

Seasoned ( and arrogant ) apprentice found a short to ground on a receptacle circuit...120 L-N.

He proceeded to take apart j-box after j-box to isolate it.

He got carried away, and started jumping into lighting circuits... 277VAC L-N.

He was a very busy boy, and had opened an astounding number of j-boxes.

He still couldn't find the short.

When I caught on to what he'd been doing... I blew my stack.

The wall mounted water fountain was plugged into that receptacle circuit -- and it was in plain view -- three-feet away ! It's default circuit is a motor winding that runs L-N controlled by logic that runs L-N. Once unplugged, the short went away.

It took me -- no kidding -- three-hours to rebuild all of the circuits. They were deep, complicated j-boxes -- and were completed work... needing only final trim-out... by me. ( Watt Stopper )

THIS ^^^^ is how you don't trouble shoot.

&&&&&

In a new build// or old work with COLD circuits... Toner & Wand usually dopes out what's roped to what... WITHOUT having to open up a single j-box. You can inject a signal at any point along a receptacle chain.

Lighting circuits are normally the easiest to dope out -- since they run constant hots to switches -- and chain switch-legs from there -- many's the time. Plan B has the constant run to an outlet... with a switch-leg brought down to the switch and back. You'll find that most fellas stick with one style or the other.

There will only be a limited number of 3-ways and 4-ways... usually idiot obvious based upon the layout of the joint. ( top of stairs, bottom of stairs... room entry, left... room entry, right... room entry, exterior -- and so forth.) Then it's merely a matter of seeing how far off the rails the HO // handy man went with the travellers.

But, those are the easy ones.

The fun really begins with underground faults... in which case you really need the trick equipment.

You won't run into much of this in Residential. And when it happens, figure it to be linked to ground disturbance// fresh digging // staking ... and the need to run fresh wire or cable. Trivial backyard runs are often quicker and cheaper to just re-do. Breaking out the trick gear is just too much hassle to save UF. ( And you wonder just how much damage the cable has suffered... and how _shallow_ it was run -- very typical -- it was never inspected in the first place. )

You'd be astounded how fast you can move in a 'cold' house. You can dope out the roping without opening a single box.

Then you can always flip the breakers back on, and confirm your findings.

Bonus tip: use Painter's Tape -- Blue or Green -- as stick-ums all over the joint. They're better than Post-It Notes. ( stick better )


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I almost never start at the panel, almost. I like to stand in the middle of the problem and let it sink into my being. Then using decades of experience, I split the problem in half. Take a light that doesn't come on. The age of the wiring would point me either to the switch or ceiling box. After I made sure there was a good lamp in it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

One way I instantly find out if the neutral is bad is to connect it to the ground wire.
If that fixes the problem, I'll hunt it down.
If it doesn't fix it, I'll check out the hot side.

Residential isn't that bad, it isn't so spread out and it doesn't explode.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

backstay said:


> I almost never start at the panel, almost. I like to stand in the middle of the problem and let it sink into my being. Then using decades of experience, I split the problem in half. Take a light that doesn't come on. The age of the wiring would point me either to the switch or ceiling box. After I made sure there was a good lamp in it.


I try to find out what was changed recently and for some reason people want to lie or they forget.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

telsa said:


> The primary way that you speed up troubleshooting is by NOT going down the wrong alley.
> 
> One example of terrible troubleshooting:
> 
> ...


It's crazy to me you're a real person. I'd get a kick out of working with you for a week.

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Agreed TS'ing is all in the approach , what toolage helps? well i've had luck with this>>>










~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Southeast Power said:


> I try to find out what was changed recently and for some reason people want to lie or they forget.


Maintenance men , we're usually called in when they're defeated , and may /may not own up to whatever they did prior.....:no:~CS~


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

​


chicken steve said:


> Maintenance men , we're usually called in when they're defeated , and may /may not own up to whatever they did prior.....:no:~CS~


The thing that I am not super crazy with those maintenance grunts they always like to eff up some items and make it worst than just leave it alone and let us fix it faster than they can itch their balls or eggs upside down .,,,, 


I just have one done not too long ago their grunts mishook up the connection and blew 8K worth of lights out in one second .,, going from 240 to 415 volts will do it.,, 

those gunts say the contractor is the curpit but I look somewhere else and found cross connection there.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Learn to make a "Decision Tree". I took a graduate course in Logic and the Decision Tree was a major part of that class. The Decision Tree can be used for anything from troubleshooting to investing.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

telsa said:


> You won't run into much of this in Residential. And when it happens, figure it to be linked to ground disturbance// fresh digging // staking ... and the need to run fresh wire or cable. Trivial backyard runs are often quicker and cheaper to just re-do. Breaking out the trick gear is just too much hassle to save UF. ( And you wonder just how much damage the cable has suffered... and how _shallow_ it was run -- very typical -- it was never inspected in the first place. )


I had one of the those a month ago. This is where my tone probe failed me because I guess the armor blocks the signal.

Existing multi-wire multi-circuit teck cable was run there from the house to the end of a shared dock on the lake for almost ten years, I went in and did some add-ons and removals out there. Then did some visuals taking some of the junctions at the house apart to see how they wired it, and then changing out a breaker for it.

Got called back a couple weeks ago that half of the stuff isn't working now at the dock and the breaker is tripped. First I thought I might have done something where a screw on the side of a receptacle or something might have just started to brush against the ground wire or something with all my fiddling around with the stuff.

I asked if there was any changes. One person planted a tree pretty close to the underground conduit, and one person was replacing dock boards. I found there was a line to armor short after taking apart pretty much everything I touched before except the breaker panel since I knew it wasn't the problem since it only tripped when the light switch was turned on. Followed the house branch to the teck connection to the outside of the house. Everything looks great the way I left it.

Dug the little tree out, and didn't come near the conduit after all. The conduit under the dock was several inches away from where any deck screw would have skewered it. We were all stumped and I followed the line as best as I could under the dock became buried in the yard. Pulled the end out from the house out to the dock, and no issues in sight. 

We decided no more trouble shooting, just replace the whole cable and be done with it.

Tried to pull the cable out under the dock and would not budge at all. So even if we got the new cable we couldn't get it in the pipe without ripping the old one out first. For the most part the loose, non-glued conduit hanging in the joist holes was able to move freely in and out of the holes except at one spot.

Finally the neighbor that did the screwing started taking more and more deck boards off so we could see more of the conduit. What he didn't tell us is that he also was repairing the joists under the deck as well and there was a 3 or 4 inch screw through the joist in to the conduit, through the jacket and armor and poked in to one of the lines. Would never have seen it either because it was so low to the sand and the screw head was buried past the stopping point in to the wood.

Luckily the guy that installed the original cable grounded the armor at the house, because he didn't ground the armor at the load end at the dock. So if he didn't ground it at least at one of the ends it would never have tripped the breaker in the first place to alert the people that there was a problem.

Bad spot for a splice box. A new cable was cheaper and more practical than an underwater / underground splice kit so was able to race down and get a new one right before the wholesaler closed for the weekend.



backstay said:


> I almost never start at the panel, almost. I like to stand in the middle of the problem and let it sink into my being. Then using decades of experience, I split the problem in half. Take a light that doesn't come on. The age of the wiring would point me either to the switch or ceiling box. After I made sure there was a good lamp in it.


We have that method in our text book from school they have it labeled as the "half-split method". 

I usually begin where the problem is thought to be occurring, and then I try to look like I know what I'm doing and hope no one finds out that I don't have a clue after that point :whistling2:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Agreed TS'ing is all in the approach , what toolage helps? well i've had luck with this>>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those things are great, though I've found they work best if you use separated leads, and put one of them in the hot pin of the receptacle to be traced, and connect the other to the ground of a different circuit. That way the field doesn't cancel itself and you get a stronger signal. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

Anyone have thoughts of what the whole house flickering lights issue could be from my first post?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

746 Watts said:


> Anyone have thoughts of what the whole house flickering lights issue could be from my first post?


Is that only house that affect or it do affect other house feeded from the same transformer ? 

if other house affected then it is POCO side .,

if not then could be a hidden corrode connection sometime at meter base that part you will have to put some pressure on POCO to cut the seal to get take a look at the connecton .

look at the service entrance conductors to see if any hidden nicks if so there is a good chance the alum conductors are toasted. 

If all are good then get a clamp on ampmeter and read the current ( this part I rather use the anlong meter to catch the cycling load this is one few spots the anlog meter can catch )


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

746 Watts said:


> Anyone have thoughts of what the whole house flickering lights issue could be from my first post?


The answer lies in the nature of the flickering.

Is it 120Hz flickering ?

Is it regular flickering ?

Is it irregular flickering ?

Does it flicker bright for some lights -- while going dim for other lights ?

( Dead give-away that the neutral is impaired. L-N values are swinging to and fro.)

And so forth.

Flickering, per se, does not inform the commentariat.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

frenchelectrican said:


> Is that only house that affect or it do affect other house feeded from the same transformer ?
> 
> if other house affected then it is POCO side .,
> 
> ...


Ok, the neighbors were asked a while back, and they said they had flickering as well. Some of the houses in the area were older with smaller loads, and then rebuilt as bigger houses with more power demands. Since asking the poco I think they may have started replacing the transformers to higher capacity to support the neighborhood but I will have to look.

Also, will have to ask the neighbors again if they still have issues.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

telsa said:


> The answer lies in the nature of the flickering.
> 
> Is it 120Hz flickering ?
> 
> ...


I'd say irregular flickering. Everything will look normal for a minute, and then it will drop out for a split second and then back to normal. All lights in the circuit will have the same behavior at the same time. It happens whether it is the lights from the main panel at the main floor, or basement lights run off at the sub panel.

One flag is the lights that are LED MR16 with the transformers at the housings flicker the worst. But they were flickering just the same when it was incandescent MR16 with the transformers. 

Also, some of the lights that don't have the transformers it's not as noticeable, but I'm pretty sure the flicker is still there but less pronounced. I was thinking it might be good to watch the incandescent lights more closely and be absolutely sure they flicker as well.

There are a lot of dimmers throughout the house as well. I think it happens at full brightness settings as well. Might be worth looking to see if it happens in all the rooms at the same time. Also, double check to see if it is just the rooms with the dimmers that have the problems.

No major loads are running when it happens as well, like dishwasher, laundry machines, etc.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

746 Watts said:


> I'd say irregular flickering. *Everything will look normal for a minute, and then it will drop out for a split second and then back to normal.* All lights in the circuit will have the same behavior at the same time. It happens whether it is the lights from the main panel at the main floor, or basement lights run off at the sub panel.
> 
> One flag is the lights that are LED MR16 with the transformers at the housings flicker the worst. But they were flickering just the same when it was incandescent MR16 with the transformers.
> 
> ...


That's classic voltage sag, cut-out.

Is there a hefty load nearby ?

Does your Poco have switching capacitors nearby ?

Are you close to your Poco substation ?

And, you might look into a failing Hot connection at the transformer// meter connection.

Such short and weird behaviors are often detected with a Simpson analogue meter.

'Cause the meter needle swings in a twitchy way -- whereas a DMM merely samples the voltage -- and in doing so -- smooths it out. 

Never ever forget: DMMs are samplers. You're looking at a chain of snapshots.

To see twitchy faults you need an analogue meter -- if not a scope.

( Ultra performance DMM will have ultra short sampling times -- but they are outside your budget, unless you're Bezos. )


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

telsa said:


> That's classic voltage sag, cut-out.
> 
> Is there a hefty load nearby ?
> 
> ...


Most of that I would have to find out. I have been wondering if there is an illegal grow-op nearby causing big draws on the neighborhood.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

746 Watts said:


> Most of that I would have to find out. I have been wondering if there is an illegal grow-op nearby causing big draws on the neighborhood.


Grow Ops function as Base Load...

You're looking for Doctor Frankenstein.


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## 746 Watts (Nov 13, 2016)

telsa said:


> Is there a hefty load nearby ?


There may actually be a load in the house causing it. They said they notice the flicker when the hvac kicks in. A heat pump with an air conditioner and forced air central ducting. They're going to try and watch it more closely. 

It also doesn't flicker in the day time when the lights are on, which may suggest it is load based within the house, or when all the neighbors are home from work using stuff in the evening.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

746 Watts said:


> There may actually be a load in the house causing it. They said they notice the flicker when the hvac kicks in. A heat pump with an air conditioner and forced air central ducting. *They're going to try and watch it more closely. *
> 
> It also doesn't flicker in the day time when the lights are on, which may suggest it is load based within the house, or when all the neighbors are home from work using stuff in the evening.


A civilian's opinion is virtually worthless.

If you're not seeing the flicker // can't spot it with your own gear -- you're most unlikely to make any progress.

You might as well ask a seven-year old to lay out events.

Legends from the neighborhood -- are even more worthless.

To the average Joe, electricity is magic -- and is comprehended at that level.


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