# ansul micro switch



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Contractor or shunt trip beaker. Never use the micro for any type of real load.


----------



## mmorana01 (Mar 6, 2017)

Jack Legg said:


> So I have to go tomorrow to tie a hood fan into the ansul system
> 
> System was installed in the 80's and shuts power to all equipment under the hood but the exhaust fan was never wired to come on
> 
> ...


Hello. You need microswitch and contactor. Microswitch at fire mechanical system box (usually red box). Microswitch NC to normal work and, NO to new contactor (fan) and shunt trip breaker/s.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Never use the micro for any type of real load.


The last couple I did had micros that were rated for the fans being used. It made the installation much easier.


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

All electric under hood must shut down along with makeup air, if it has it.This includes equipment and outlets under the hood, even if not being used.

I dont believe the exhaust needs to come on as it should already be on and it should stay on as it will help clear all the smoke in event of a fire. The return/makeup air has to shut off when suppression system trips. You dont want to fan the flames.

There should be a NO/NC switch or double pole double throw

NC to makeup air and electric equip and NO to strobe light

Id put the pin in the ansul system before you start working....lol you dont want that going off!

If it truly is an Ansul you can stick a screwdriver in mechanism so it doesnt trip


ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

When ansul system trips it contacts that switch to shut down electric/return air and set of alarm/strobe[emoji106]

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> Contractor or shunt trip beaker. Never use the micro for any type of real load.


I believe the switch ties into the shunt breakers
You need the switch for ansul syatem to activate 
All suppressions systems essentialy work the same, so if this really is ansul, pyro,amerex, or another system you will need to have THIER listed part. 

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Contractor or shunt trip beaker. Never use the micro for any type of real load.





220/221 said:


> The last couple I did had micros that were rated for the fans being used. It made the installation much easier.


hahaha that was my question

I'm gonna bring a contactor

Those switches look cheesy

I don't even know what the fan load is yet


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

You need the manufacturers switch

Also FYI...
make your connections outside of the suppression systems box

There cant be any electrical connections inside the box in case the bottle/hose leaks

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

FFW to .55seconds
On the right is a long stud,you can see the one lever hit it once activated.
Thats where micro switch goes,(on this particulaor model), of course its not in the video. When that mechanism activates/slides it pushes againt the switches/switch

These are mechanical systems which is why you need a micro switch otherwise i dont see how you can get it to work.

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

trentonmakes said:


> You need the manufacturers switch
> 
> Also FYI...
> make your connections outside of the suppression systems box
> ...


the switch is already there

there are 2, only one is being used, the other is a spare that I will use


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

trentonmakes said:


> You need the manufacturers switch
> 
> Also FYI...
> make your connections outside of the suppression systems box
> ...


What bottle or hose ? I haven't done one of those in years, but I remember contemplating a splice in there, but I didn't see a built in electrical compartment.

The shunt breakers are a good idea for all the other electrical under the hood. I think the last one, the previous guy used two contactors, one two pole for make up air, and one multi pole for all the other circuits controlled by the micro switches. I replaced all that with a new digital electronic controller


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

The bottle that holds the chemical solution.
Ansul has the bottle and hose in the enclosure. Others the tank screws into the bottom.
All the bottles are pressurized except ansul, which is why they have a hose. They use a nitrous cannister to fill the bottle and push the chemical out. The little nitro bomb in the vid actually just punctures the seal on the pressurized tanks.
The chemical is highly conductive which is why they dont want connections in them, and also the reason electric under hood must now be shut down.

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jack Legg said:


> hahaha that was my question
> 
> I'm gonna bring a contactor
> 
> ...


In my experience commercial exhaust fans are normally 3 phase or 240v that you couldn't run more than the contactor/starter coil through the micro switch.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

trentonmakes said:


> The bottle that holds the chemical solution.
> Ansul has the bottle and hose in the enclosure. Others the tank screws into the bottom.
> All the bottles are pressurized except ansul, which is why they have a hose. They use a nitrous cannister to fill the bottle and push the chemical out. The little nitro bomb in the vid actually just punctures the seal on the pressurized tanks.
> The chemical is highly conductive which is why they dont want connections in them, and also the reason electric under hood must now be shut down.
> ...


**** me !!!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> In my experience commercial exhaust fans are normally 3 phase or 240v that you couldn't run more than the contactor/starter coil through the micro switch.


Im still wondering why the exhaust fan needs to be tied in? If they're there and open the fan should be on. There is a heat detector now that turns the fan on when they turn grills and stuff on but thats not tied into suppression systems.
Usually its only return air which needs to turn off upon activation. Im not aware of any rule where the exhaust fan must come on.

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Im still wondering why the exhaust fan needs to be tied in? If they're there and open the fan should be on. There is a heat detector now that turns the fan on when they turn grills and stuff on but thats not tied into suppression systems.
> Usually its only return air which needs to turn off upon activation. Im not aware of any rule where the exhaust fan must come on.
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


Couldn't quote you the rule but exhaust fans are to stay on for as long as I can recall.

Haven't installed a heat sensor to start the fans, that has to be newer than equipment with pilot lights or the fan would be on 24/7.

Commercial cooking lines are rarely cool.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

trentonmakes said:


> Im still wondering why the exhaust fan needs to be tied in? If they're there and open the fan should be on. There is a heat detector now that turns the fan on when they turn grills and stuff on but thats not tied into suppression systems.
> Usually its only return air which needs to turn off upon activation. Im not aware of any rule where the exhaust fan must come on.
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


What if the fire happens after they are closed and no one is there ? I would think they would want the exhaust to move air out , with no new incoming air to starve a fire

I had one place that was an old Jack In The Box, that had two exhaust hoods, and two ansuls side by side, and the new retsaurant wanted me to change the exhaust fans from the way the OEM controller built them for the inspector. I think there are two different schools of thought on that. I'll see if I can find the schematic, and recall


----------



## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

I have heard something about exhaust fan turning on but can't find a reference. Possible motivations are that if there is a grease fire in or past the hood the fan will carry the extinguisher material to it and may also prevent the fire from burning through the duct.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Couldn't quote you the rule but exhaust fans are to stay on for as long as I can recall.
> 
> Haven't installed a heat sensor to start the fans, that has to be newer than equipment with pilot lights or the fan would be on 24/7.
> 
> Commercial cooking lines are rarely cool.


Yeah i know they are to stay on, but wasnt aware they had to turn on. Like if the business was closed and fire started.

I forget the range but the pilot lights alone wont activate the sensor. It takes a couple minutes even when the char broiler gets going. I guess they found too many chinese....errrr restaurants not actually useing them. Lol

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

trentonmakes said:


> Yeah i know they are to stay on, but wasnt aware they had to turn on. Like if the business was closed and fire started.
> 
> !


More important, I think, is that if someone panics at the fire and turns the hood off it will stay on.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

trentonmakes said:


> Im still wondering why the exhaust fan needs to be tied in? If they're there and open the fan should be on. There is a heat detector now that turns the fan on when they turn grills and stuff on but thats not tied into suppression systems.
> Usually its only return air which needs to turn off upon activation. Im not aware of any rule where the exhaust fan must come on.
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


Its been the same way for 30 years...Now recent Fire Marshall inspection and inspector wants the exhaust fan on regardless of switch condition when the ansul trips



its all right next to each other, should be easy peasy


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Look at this one. I had to change from the way the controls were built for a Jack In The Box, to the new codes


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

inetdog said:


> More important, I think, is that if someone panics at the fire and turns the hood off it will stay on.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


exactly


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

inetdog said:


> I have heard something about exhaust fan turning on but can't find a reference. Possible motivations are that if there is a grease fire in or past the hood the fan will carry the extinguisher material to it and may also prevent the fire from burning through the duct.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


The minimum duct wall thickness is 14ga, haven't seen one that was installed properly burn through as of yet.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Yeah i know they are to stay on, but wasnt aware they had to turn on. Like if the business was closed and fire started.
> 
> I forget the range but the pilot lights alone wont activate the sensor. It takes a couple minutes even when the char broiler gets going. I guess they found too many chinese....errrr restaurants not actually useing them. Lol
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


There is no way they would want to leave the exhaust on and no make up air, that could create a huge problem trying to open doors for one thing.

Also cost wise it wouldn't be a great thing.


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

I meant the people in the kitchen do not turn on exhaust fans, for whatever reason.

There are still plenty places with no makeup air. I believe once you upgrade suppression systems now you need to bring everything up too code which means thousands to add makeup air.

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> There is no way they would want to leave the exhaust on and no make up air, that could create a huge problem trying to open doors for one thing.
> 
> Also cost wise it wouldn't be a great thing.


I think you're are right. If you look at the drawing,CR2 closes if the Ansul goes on. CR2 is another supply source besides the switches 
Also the NC contact opens wire #17, and disables the supply air.

*Also 13 &14 aux contacts have to be closed for the Supply Air to work

The inspector wanted me to disable those fans from closing


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> There is no way they would want to leave the exhaust on and no make up air, that could create a huge problem trying to open doors for one thing.
> 
> Also cost wise it wouldn't be a great thing.


That is not always true. That is exactly what the fire Marshall want around here. Smoke out and no new feed. 
Hopefully fireman stevie comes in and explains it to us.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> I meant the people in the kitchen do not turn on exhaust fans, for whatever reason.
> 
> *There are still plenty places with no makeup air.* I believe once you upgrade suppression systems now you need to bring everything up too code which means thousands to add makeup air.
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


Maybe there isn't a make up air unit but ther eis a damper or some means to bring in air or it would be like trying to breathe inside a vacuum.

Have you ever seen the havoc a 24" 1/4 HP whole house fan can create if there are no windows open when it's turned on?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> That is not always true. That is exactly what the fire Marshall want around here. Smoke out and no new feed.
> Hopefully fireman stevie comes in and explains it to us.


I wasn't talking about in the event of fire but in reference to leaving the fan on 24/7 as I took it from Trenton's post.


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> That is not always true. That is exactly what the fire Marshall want around here. Smoke out and no new feed.
> Hopefully fireman stevie comes in and explains it to us.


Thats the way it is!
Makeup air feeds the fire....they dont want that. They aren't so concerned about exhaust because he draws the smoke out.

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe there isn't a make up air unit but ther eis a damper or some means to bring in air or it would be like trying to breathe inside a vacuum.
> 
> Have you ever seen the havoc a 24" 1/4 HP whole house fan can create if there are no windows open when it's turned on?


I thought you were from jersey? Lol
You know well theres plenty mom n pop shops and sals pizza operating without any return air! Thats why those places are always so drafty. Lol

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> I thought you were from jersey? Lol
> You know well theres plenty mom n pop shops and sals pizza operating without any return air! Thats why those places are always so drafty. Lol
> 
> ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


Oh God no! No way am I from Jersey, I just lived there a long time.

Long enough to know that the hole in the walls delis and mom and pop luncheonette counters have screen doors on the back of the stores or basement doors open with the cellar windows open or through the wall vents, the air has to come from somewhere or like I said before you'd not be able to pry open the doors.

This door problem was the first thing to indicate the MUA units were down in more than one hotel kitchen.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I don't 'get' the logic of starving the fire of air.

It does not work out that way in the real world.

ANSUL and all the rest suppress the fire by direct action at the point of trouble.

To actually suppress the flame by oxygen denial -- how do humans survive_ that_ ?

BTW, every commercial kitchen I ever had to wire had a belt and suspenders approach to the exhaust duct work... steel + sheet rock... taped up something silly. A real labor pig.

But not my problem.

The electrical 'logic' // relays were ALWAYS in an isolated and dedicated steel box... miles from the actual ANSUL system.

Micro switches can't take the REPEATED use of which they are rated. 

To get long life, send the actual current load through a relay. You need the extra contact area.


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

telsa said:


> I don't 'get' the logic of starving the fire of air.
> 
> It does not work out that way in the real world.
> 
> ...


It probally falls back to the triangle, i dunno

I just know most fire inspectors want the MUA unit off when suppression systems activate










ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oh God no! No way am I from Jersey, I just lived there a long time.
> 
> Long enough to know that the hole in the walls delis and mom and pop luncheonette counters have screen doors on the back of the stores or basement doors open with the cellar windows open or through the wall vents, the air has to come from somewhere or like I said before you'd not be able to pry open the doors.
> 
> This door problem was the first thing to indicate the MUA units were down in more than one hotel kitchen.


Yep!
Lol

Ever notice even in those places alot of the doors slam shut? Especially the doors to the kitchen!

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Yep!
> Lol
> 
> Ever notice even in those places alot of the doors slam shut? Especially the doors to the kitchen!
> ...


Sure have.

Funniest was a school with a small 5'x8' chefs office right off the kitchen.

If the belt on the MAU broke he couldn't get out of his office on his own


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Jack Legg said:


> hahaha that was my question


Yeah. I know. My answer was based on my installations since I had no info on yours. 

Mine were both relatively small systems with a 120V exhaust fan. I wasn't concerned that it looked cheesy. The switch was designed to opeate the motor and it was already installed, sitting there waiting for me to hook a few wire to it.

I pondered the _"turning on the exhaust fan if the switch was off"_ question and decided it was easy enough to do so that's what I did. My theory was, in any situation, you would want to vent the building.



> Micro switches can't take the REPEATED use of which they are rated.


If you are repeatedly using them, you are doing something wrong lol.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

telsa said:


> Micro switches can't take the REPEATED use of which they are rated.



:001_huh:


----------



## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

220/221 said:


> Yeah. I know. My answer was based on my installations since I had no info on yours.
> 
> Mine were both relatively small systems with a 120V exhaust fan. I wasn't concerned that it looked cheesy. The switch was designed to opeate the motor and it was already installed, sitting there waiting for me to hook a few wire to it.
> 
> ...


They only get used at most twice a year during semi annual inspections. Most of those guys never activate them though, least around here.
Be prepared for angry customer. Lol 
Restaurant people never notice those systems except for two times a year where they need to spend a couple bucks on them for inspections.
Your bill alone will likely be 3-4times more expensive, easily. Lol

ANSWERE THE QUESTION STEVIE!


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

trentonmakes said:


> They only get used at most twice a year during semi annual inspections. Most of those guys never activate them though, least around here.
> Be prepared for angry customer. Lol
> Restaurant people never notice those systems except for two times a year where they need to spend a couple bucks on them for inspections.
> Your bill alone will likely be 3-4times more expensive, easily. Lol
> ...



Yeah, we all know that except for one guy :whistling2:

The question is; did the code change from leaving the exhaust fans on, or having them shut off with the system. I did both ways in 2015


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> There is no way they would want to leave the exhaust on and no make up air, that could create a huge problem trying to open doors for one thing.
> 
> Also cost wise it wouldn't be a great thing.


They want to eliminate the smoke for the firefighters. The reason the MUH is off is to not force feed the fire.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Use the microswitch to hold a DPDT ice cube relay. The NO relay contacts feed power through to the switches that manually control the fans. If the relay drops out, power is cut to the make up air fan, and the exhaust switch is bypassed with the NC contacts.

This way it doesn't matter what the switches are doing or if the fire happens in the middle of the night.


----------



## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Just had the same problem 
Assuming system works properly just need to up date operation to current code - IF fan switch is off and system trips then it needs to bring on the exhaust fan

Depending on micro switch rating just wire it parallel to fan switch.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> dronai said:
> 
> 
> > :001_huh:


Before he posted that, I was going to say something like, "They only have to work once "


----------



## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe there isn't a make up air unit but ther eis a damper or some means to bring in air or it would be like trying to breathe inside a vacuum.
> 
> Have you ever seen the havoc a 24" 1/4 HP whole house fan can create if there are no windows open when it's turned on?


I've worked on a few systems up here that use the HVAC system [ with lots of OA amount ] as make up air to kitchen hood/kitchen cooling ventilation .


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

scotch said:


> I've worked on a few systems up here that use the HVAC system [ with lots of OA amount ] as make up air to kitchen hood/kitchen cooling ventilation .


Yup it has to come from somewhere!


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> They want to eliminate the smoke for the firefighters. The reason the MUH is off is to not force feed the fire.


You obviously missed post #31.


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

Glad I brought a contactor

Didn't go on the roof because it was raining, amped the fan at the panel, it was 120 volt 14amps

micro switch rating was 4 or 10 amps, cant remember


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jack Legg said:


> Glad I brought a contactor
> 
> Didn't go on the roof because it was raining, amped the fan at the panel, it was 120 volt 14amps
> 
> micro switch rating was 4 or 10 amps, cant remember


Usually 10.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> They only get used at most twice a year during semi annual inspections.


I didn't consider the inspections :jester:

That's someone else's job


----------



## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

It's for smoke removal 

20 year EMT/Firefighter.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jack Legg said:


> Glad I brought a contactor
> 
> Didn't go on the roof because it was raining, amped the fan at the panel, it was 120 volt 14amps
> 
> micro switch rating was 4 or 10 amps, cant remember


A single phase motor ? any motor protection ?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

FF301 said:


> It's for smoke removal
> 
> 20 year EMT/Firefighter.


Smoke and *heat*? Kind of like chopping a hole in the roof to vent a fire?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I like the way those switches feel when opening and closing them. I like the click. I will operate them 15-20 times just playing around with them.

Looks like I ruined them


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)




----------

