# liquid tight conduit



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Im doing a Govt Job that calls for liquid tight flexible conduit from the disco's to the equipment. I used whats called "carflex" its liquid flexible conduit without the steel in it. Now the EE says that it needs to have the steel in it whats called "seal tight" down here. Per his notes all it calls for is "liquid tight conduit" is car flex not liquid tight conduit?

Im guessing this is a simple misunderstanding by people from different places calling the same thing something different.

What do you call plastic flex with steel and without steel?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Carflex is just non metallic flex. I think it is also a trademarked name. Carlon makes "carflex" I THINK...
Sealtite is what you needed. Another trademarked name? The stuff with the metal inside.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Carflex is just non metallic flex.
> Sealtite is what you needed.


is carflex not liquid tight flexible conduit?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Depending on how much was run and if your specs don't say otherwise that might be a change order. If he didn't specify LTFMC that's his problem. What you ran is a type of "liquid tight conduit."

-John


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> is carflex not liquid tight flexible conduit?



Nope it is just non metallic flex. Liquid tight has the metal inside.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big John said:


> Depending on how much was run and if your specs don't say otherwise that might be a change order. If he didn't specify LTFMC that's his problem. What you ran is a type of "liquid tight conduit."
> 
> -John




I'm pretty sure it is not a type of liquid type conduit. The box says non metallic flex and does not mention liquid tight anywhere on it.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Nope it is just non metallic flex. Liquid tight has the metal inside.


Thats what the EE says. But I think that Non Metallic flex is liquid tight.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> Thats what the EE says. But I think that Non Metallic flex is liquid tight.



Well he says your wrong and I agree. Non metallic flex is just non metallic flex. The box says nothing about it being liquid tight. If you want liquid tight ask for liquid tight not carflex....


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

jwjrw said:


> Nope it is just non metallic flex. Liquid tight has the metal inside.


 From carflex, bold by me
What UL standard covers Carflex?​UL1660, *Liquidtight* Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I'm pretty sure it is not a type of liquid type conduit. The box says non metallic flex and does not mention liquid tight anywhere on it.


I've always heard Carflex being slang for non-metallic liquid tight.

But I just Googled it and some Carflex is non-metallic liquid-tight and some Carflex is flexible non-metallic tubing. I guess it depends what he actually ran.

-John


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Well he says your wrong and I agree. Non metallic flex is just non metallic flex. The box says nothing about it being liquid tight. If you want liquid tight ask for liquid tight not carflex....


according to 351.23 (A) 1 - 4 Im right.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I think the EE is doesn't know why he doesn't want non metallic flex. He says its because its not liquid tight. I think its because it has plastic fittings.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> according to 351.23 (A) 1 - 4 Im right.


Maybe you are and maybe you are not. 351.23(a)? What code cycle is that?
Like John said it depends what you ran. I use Carlon brand CARFLEX and it says nothing about it being liquidtight. Here everyone I know of uses the metal inside if they want liquid tight and the regular non metallic if not specified. I have never heard of anyone using non metallic non metal lined as liquid tight.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Voltech said:


> Now the EE says that it needs to have the steel in it whats called "seal tight" down here. Per his notes all it calls for is "liquid tight conduit" is car flex not liquid tight conduit?


Maybe the EE should have been clear and speced "LFMC".:whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big John said:


> I've always heard Carflex being slang for non-metallic liquid tight.
> 
> But I just Googled it and some Carflex is non-metallic liquid-tight and some Carflex is flexible non-metallic tubing. I guess it depends what he actually ran.
> 
> -John




Yea I think it is a standard slang term here too but it is for reg non metallic flex. Carlon makes carflex....


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Maybe the EE should have been clear and speced "LFMC".:whistling2:



Or LFNMC....:whistling2:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Big John said:


> Depending on how much was run and if your specs don't say otherwise that might be a change order. If he didn't specify LTFMC that's his problem. What you ran is a type of "liquid tight conduit."
> 
> -John


That's how I see it too.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

I've see a lot of that Carflex installed and it wasn't liquid tight, but mostly due to crappy connectors.


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## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

See 350.2 and 356.2. If all the engineer spec'd is "liquid-tight flexible conduit," then you've got a change order and some money comin to you.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Arc'n'Spark said:


> See 350.2 and 356.2. If all the engineer spec'd is "liquid-tight flexible conduit," then you've got a change order and some money comin to you.


Here everyone would of ran sealtite. Just common knowledge here. Guess every area is different


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Voltech said:


> Im doing a Govt Job that calls for liquid tight flexible conduit from the disco's to the equipment. I used whats called "carflex" its liquid flexible conduit without the steel in it. Now the EE says that it needs to have the steel in it whats called "seal tight" down here. Per his notes all it calls for is "liquid tight conduit" is car flex not liquid tight conduit?
> 
> Im guessing this is a simple misunderstanding by people from different places calling the same thing something different.
> 
> What do you call plastic flex with steel and without steel?


Read the specs with a fine tooth comb. Can't imagine trying to use anything but Sealtite on a government job, unless it's something like government housing.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Maybe you are and maybe you are not. 351.23(a)? What code cycle is that?



I see, by mistake I was looking at 1999 on the computer. 

Bottom Line.

Plans call for liquid tight flexible conduit and thats what was installed.
It was not spec'ed metallic or non metallic.

What they got me on, (but have yet to point out) is the plastic fittings. From what I have read from carflex, they dont list a metal fitting for non metallic.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I agree with the EE. Just from a craftsmanship standpoint. And I believe "Liquid Tite" is a brand name, not the real definition.
Chris hit the nail on the head.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Here everyone would of ran sealtite. Just common knowledge here. Guess every area is different


The more and more I think about it, this is more of slang term problem than anything. I have heard LFMC and LFNC both be called seal tight. And I have heard that only carflex is LFNC.

Im as guilty as anyone, but we need to call material by what it is, not what its called.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> I agree with the EE. Just from a craftsmanship standpoint. And I believe "Liquid Tite" is a brand name, not the real definition.
> Chris hit the nail on the head.


 "Liquidtight Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit" is the exact term from the UL listing for Carflex. If the EE wanted "Liquidtight Flexible Metallic Conduit" he should have spec'ed it.


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## Netree (Sep 3, 2011)

Hubble also makes LFNC. If this is a high-vibration install, I'd prefer the LFNC anyways.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

See 356.10 Informational note (IN's are not _code,_ but fuel for an EE)356.12(1) and (2) vs 350.12


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Voltech said:


> I see, by mistake I was looking at 1999 on the computer.
> 
> Bottom Line.
> 
> ...


Heyco-Flex lists a metal fitting for LFNC, but that could be listed only for Heyco-Flex not Carflex.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> I see, by mistake I was looking at 1999 on the computer.
> 
> Bottom Line.
> 
> ...



And that is why I say it is not really liquid tight. I did not realize some brands of non metallic flex were considered liquid tight. Here it is just considered flex. Sealtight is always used if liquid tight is spec'ed


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> And that is why I say it is not really liquid tight. I did not realize some brands of non metallic flex were considered liquid tight. Here it is just considered flex. Sealtight is always used if liquid tight is spec'ed


If I order Liquid tight they will always ask "mettalic or non-mettalic?"'
Liquid tight by itself just says it has to be liquid tight.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Wireless said:


> If I order Liquid tight they will always ask "mettalic or non-mettalic?"'
> Liquid tight by itself just says it has to be liquid tight.




Not here. You ask for carflex you get non metallic carlon style flex in a 50 ft roll. You ask for liquid tight you get the metal lined stuff. Not saying what we call it is correct just that here carflex is simply non metallic flex.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

We use both types, the carflex in places where there is allot of vibration, and extremely wet areas, and seal tight for motors limit switch's and such. Is there a description on your prints? If so what dose it say?


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

Does anyone know the difference between rain tight compression connectors and regular compression connectors/couplings? 
I always assumed that compression fittings are rain tight!


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Go ahead and argue with the Contracting Officer Rep. and instead of 90 days, it will be ... to get paid.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Does anyone know the difference between rain tight compression connectors and regular compression connectors/couplings?
> I always assumed that compression fittings are rain tight!


 Plastic seal inside the connectors/couplings.


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Plastic seal inside the connectors/couplings.


Yea im sorry I have always thought compression fittings are made to be weather proof! Does this mean an inspector could call you on it if you use normal compression fittings on the exterior of a building?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Yea im sorry I have always thought compression fittings are made to be weather proof! Does this mean an inspector could call you on it if you use normal compression fittings on the exterior of a building?


 I believe so.... I've always used ridge or the connector with the seal in them. If the box says rain tight, Your good to go!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Nope it is just non metallic flex. Liquid tight has the metal inside.


Next time you're in Lowes, look at their Liquid tight. They have LFNMC and the fittings that go with it. All plastic flex with *no* metal in it. I have a roll in my van. The fittings cost almost as much as the flex. I see some here use it inside or just to sleeve something and they just glue a regular PVC box adapter on it. Of course that violates the listing.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

Voltech said:


> Heyco-Flex lists a metal fitting for LFNC, but that could be listed only for Heyco-Flex not Carflex.


 Raco makes Type B metal fittings listed for LFNC and LFMC. Carflex allows Type B metal fittings.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I use liquid tight flex all the time, and I'd never confuse it with that cheap crap you're trying to use. I'm pretty suprised that there's a terminology problem with it. If you asked me for flex, I'd bring you what looks like BX armour. That's flex. If you wanted liquid tight, it'd be that, with a plastic sheath. Flexible metal conduit. Flex.

But in our area, liquid tight flex is cheaper than flex, so it's all we see.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Yea im sorry I have always thought compression fittings are made to be weather proof! Does this mean an inspector could call you on it if you use normal compression fittings on the exterior of a building?


They are made to be weather proof. I think you need a plastic ring if you are going from a stronger thing like steel to a soft thing like plastic. A plastic ring inside compression fittings would probably get chewed up and broken apart.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

kaboler said:


> They are made to be weather proof. I think you need a plastic ring if you are going from a stronger thing like steel to a soft thing like plastic. A plastic ring inside compression fittings would probably get chewed up and broken apart.


 :001_huh::no:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> Next time you're in Lowes, look at their Liquid tight. They have LFNMC and the fittings that go with it. All plastic flex with *no* metal in it. I have a roll in my van. The fittings cost almost as much as the flex. I see some here use it inside or just to sleeve something and they just glue a regular PVC box adapter on it. Of course that violates the listing.



You buy your electrical materials at big blue?.....

We buy romex there and very little else. I have a roll and 2 brands of connectors on the vans. 1/2 and 3/4 for A/C units mainly. It may be a type of liquid tight but it is not what we call liquid tight here.


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## Xjourneybenderx (May 31, 2011)

kaboler said:


> They are made to be weather proof. I think you need a plastic ring if you are going from a stronger thing like steel to a soft thing like plastic. A plastic ring inside compression fittings would probably get chewed up and broken apart.


It says the non rain tight compression fittings are concrete tight eek........and the rain tight fittings are for wet locations when you penetrate a wp bell box where there is no threads. I would feel alot more comfortable with using a rain tight compression connector because it has a rubber gasket that would seal the penetration on the outside of the box.. 
But I disagree if the bell box has a threaded hole and you use a basic compression connector I would think it would be fine in my book. But it could be a huge problem if you pipe on the outside of a building and use non rain tight compression fittings and get called on it! That would be horrible from a contractors point of view..


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

kaboler said:


> I'm pretty suprised that there's a terminology problem with it.


So liquid tight flexible conduit is what?


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## Netree (Sep 3, 2011)

The EE should have been specific if he wanted one type or another; there are definite reasons for using metallic or non-metallic depending on the application.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

Carflex is what the spec allows, whether they agree or not, based on the wording you posted. I would upcharge them for a change if they want "rust-tite".

he did not specify metallic.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> You buy your electrical materials at big blue?.....
> 
> We buy romex there and very little else. I have a roll and 2 brands of connectors on the vans. 1/2 and 3/4 for A/C units mainly. It may be a type of liquid tight but it is not what we call liquid tight here.


I usually only buy there on Saturdays or after the SH closes or if I'm on a job where I need something and "Blue" is closer. What they have here is called, named, branded, listed "liquid tight". That's all I know.

Edit: I just checked their website and they have "liquid tight" from both Southwire and Carlon. Both are UL listed as "Liquid Tight" and both non-metallic.


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## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

One is Art. 350 LFMC & the other is Art. 356 LFNC


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> You buy your electrical materials at big blue?.....


Fact is, in some area's it's more convenient, takes less time, etc. than going to the supply house; It's a trade off.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Im doing a Govt Job that calls for liquid tight flexible conduit from the disco's to the equipment. I used whats called "carflex" its liquid flexible conduit without the steel in it. Now the EE says that it needs to have the steel in it whats called "seal tight" down here. Per his notes all it calls for is "liquid tight conduit" is car flex not liquid tight conduit?
> 
> Im guessing this is a simple misunderstanding by people from different places calling the same thing something different.
> 
> What do you call plastic flex with steel and without steel?


If you are doing government work and don't know they want gold plated, you are showing your inexperience. 

I'll bet it is also a Davis Bacon project.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

tkb said:


> If you are doing government work and don't know they want gold plated, you are showing your inexperience.
> 
> I'll bet it is also a Davis Bacon project.


Yes, its a prevailing wage project.

What they want and what they spec, are two different things.
The materials used, is what was spec'ed. 

Why spec anything if the electrical contractor is expected "know" what they want?

If I have to change it out, Im going to be using southwire or meyco. I dont think Im going to change it tho.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Voltech said:


> What they want and what they spec, are two different things.
> The materials used, is what was spec'ed.
> 
> Why spec anything if the electrical contractor is expected "know" what they want?
> ...


I agree 100%. It's not really a spec if it isn't specific and not subject to interpretation or local jargon....it's more of a rough guideline....:laughing:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Yes, its a prevailing wage project.
> 
> What they want and what they spec, are two different things.
> The materials used, is what was spec'ed.
> ...


Post a copy of the spec so we can see if you followed the sepc or misinterpreted it.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

tkb said:


> Post a copy of the spec so we can see if you followed the sepc or misinterpreted it.


The prints calls for "Liquid tight flexible conduit". In the EE spec book for this project it doesn't not specificity call for metallic or nonmetallic, only "liquid tight flex conduit" In damp locations.


As it turns out, the EE agreed. We met in the middle and I will change the fittings out.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

tkb said:


> If you are doing government work and don't know they want gold plated, you are showing your inexperience.
> 
> I'll bet it is also a Davis Bacon project.


 What does doing a government job have to do with it? If you give them "gold plated" when they don't spec it you are showing your inexperience.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Im doing a Govt Job that calls for liquid tight flexible conduit from the disco's to the equipment. I used whats called "carflex" its liquid flexible conduit without the steel in it. Now the EE says that it needs to have the steel in it whats called "seal tight" down here. Per his notes all it calls for is "liquid tight conduit" is car flex not liquid tight conduit?
> 
> Im guessing this is a simple misunderstanding by people from different places calling the same thing something different.
> 
> What do you call plastic flex with steel and without steel?


Is it a government job, as in for the US Government, or is it a side job?


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

mgraw said:


> What does doing a government job have to do with it? If you give them "gold plated" when they don't spec it you are showing your inexperience.


A job for the US government usually has a spec book that is 2" thick with usually the highest quality materials specified. 

If it is shown differently on the drawings and the specs, the more expensive way is usually what is required. 

How many government jobs have you worked on?

I don't know why the OP is afraid to post the spec.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

tkb said:


> A job for the US government usually has a spec book that is 2" thick with usually the highest quality materials specified.
> 
> If it is shown differently on the drawings and the specs, the more expensive way is usually what is required.
> 
> ...


About 70% of the work we do is Govt. But we don't do work for the US govt. Im not afraid of posting the the spec, in fact I have. If you don't believe me, then move on.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Is it a government job, as in for the US Government, or is it a side job?


 The funds for the project are federally assisted


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Voltech said:


> The funds for the project are federally assisted


Well then, if it spec'd sealtite...why would do otherwise.?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Tell the EE to get with the times. Someone figured out years ago that the metal interior was completely unecssary under any normal conditions. 

You can smack the crap out of it and it will fare better than metallic flex because it will bounce back into shape where the metallic may crush and pinch the conductors. 

I think the fittings hold better too because they screw more tightly into the plastic. he metal wants to open up at the end sometimes.



I haven't used LMFC in over a decade except for solar installations which for some stupid reason require metallic conduit.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Well then, if it spec'd sealtite...why would do otherwise.?


Sealtight is a brand name for both metallic and non metallic conduit.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Tell the EE to get with the times.


:thumbup: I do that.

For example if you ever find yourself on an ADOT facility and see LNFC it was probably my work, finally talked them out of using LFMC.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Tell the EE to get with the times. Someone figured out years ago that the metal interior was completely unecssary under any normal conditions.
> 
> You can smack the crap out of it and it will fare better than metallic flex because it will bounce back into shape where the metallic may crush and pinch the conductors.
> 
> ...


I have never had, or heard of, a seal tight, properly installed, not being sufficient.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Xjourneybenderx said:


> Yea im sorry I have always thought compression fittings are made to be weather proof! Does this mean an inspector could call you on it if you use normal compression fittings on the exterior of a building?


 
The old style compression connectors lost their rain tight listing a few years back and manufacturers added a plastic seal or two. They still make non rain tight compressions for indoor work that specifies compression.


You could get called on it but I haven't seen it done. Of course, we don't really get rain here.:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> :thumbup: I do that.
> 
> For example if you ever find yourself on an ADOT facility and see LNFC it was probably my work,


By LNFC, you mean Romex, right? :laughing:


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

tkb said:


> A job for the US government usually has a spec book that is 2" thick with usually the highest quality materials specified.
> 
> If it is shown differently on the drawings and the specs, the more expensive way is usually what is required.
> 
> ...


 The OP did not say the job was a "US government" job.

If the specs and the drawings are different this is usually clarified by letter before the job starts.

I have done several davis bacon jobs.

The OP posted the words of the spec several times.


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## Wiredude (May 14, 2010)

Around here the non-liquid-tight version of non-metalic flex is called ENT, and it's very rarely used.
We have 3 common varieties of "liquid-tight" here. There's the standard (gray garden hose with a metal wrap on the inside), the all PVC version which has a PVC rib molded into the sheath, and the bonded version (basically the same as the "standard", but instead of the string it has a strip of copper in it for bonding purposes.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

If you follow the spec's and the job was "wrong" in the eyes of the EE, then a change order should be submitted. 
Since it's not your fault you should be paid & the change should be noted on the prints/job sheets.
I know they like to Horse trade things away and it kills us in the field later. But it makes the EE & contracting office look good as they never make mistakes. 

FWIT, I have only seen Non-metallic used for fiber lines. It's conduit & Sealtite for us. I'm north of Chicago but not "bound" by the code. Uncle Sam has never adopted any cycle,, we only make contractors follow it. Kind of stupid IMO, but that's how it works as we don't get inspected. Lots of hacks around me here. LoL


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

How ever this eventually goes for the OP, it's a lesson learned about clarifying specifications before your tool bag hits the floor. I expect a job spec'd by a PE to be clear and I'd also take his spec literally. If a generic term is used instead of a trade name, then that leaves options. It's best to ask in that case.


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