# If left on?



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

"LEDtronics 1000 Watt Replacement LED Shoebox light fixtures (which only consumes 300 watts of power each) last up to 50,000 hours if left on 
24/7 "


That doesn't sound to well.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Wonder how many hours they last if left off!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Are LEDs affected by on-off cycling?

-John


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Are LEDs affected by on-off cycling?
> 
> -John


I do not think there is a bulb made that is not effected by the on/off cycle, especially in NY with the northeast winters.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Doesn't sound like a cheap replacement. They figured out how to make LEDs burn out. Lol.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> "LEDtronics 1000 Watt Replacement LED Shoebox light fixtures (which only consumes 300 watts of power each) last up to 50,000 hours if left on
> 24/7 "
> 
> 
> That doesn't sound to well.


They need to put these in. 100k hours (cooling motors)

http://www.globaltechled.com/


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> "LEDtronics 1000 Watt Replacement LED Shoebox light fixtures (which only* consumes 300 watts of power each*) last up to 50,000 hours if left on
> 24/7 "
> 
> 
> That doesn't sound to well.


300 watts of power per what?
Minute...hour...50,000 hours?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Big John said:


> Are LEDs affected by on-off cycling?
> 
> -John


I imagine they would, how much, I don'y know.

I'm curious of why they would put that in print. 

Are they suggesting you can get 100,000 hrs out of them, if you shut them off for 12hrs a day?


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## Speedskater (Oct 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> 300 watts of power per what?
> Minute...hour...50,000 hours?


Just like an incandescent bulb/lamp/luminary.

300 watts per minute.
300 watts per hour.
300 watts per 50,000 hours.

That's:

5 watt/hours per minute.
300 watt/hours per hour.
15 million watt/hours per 50,000 hours.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

If they're left on during the day, they will experience hostile conditions. 

We all know it gets hot in the when its sun baked. LEDs are still subject to decay as if they were stored in a car sitting in the sun, but if they were powered up during the day, the heat sink temperature will be ambient + temp rise + solar gain.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Speedskater said:


> Just like an incandescent bulb/lamp/luminary.
> 
> 300 watts per minute.
> 300 watts per hour.
> ...


At $.12/kwhr (average around here) that comes to $1800 of energy usage per rated lifetime. Now the 1000MH which would run around 1250 watts per fixture would cost $7500 to run. Plus at least 5 lamp changes. So add another $1000 so you are at $8500 to run the MH vs $1800 to run the LED.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Wrong thread


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Wrong thread


Go home Nolabama, you are drunk.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

chewy said:


> Go home Nolabama, you are drunk.


Haha. I don't drink anymore. Lol.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

360max said:


> I do not think there is a bulb made that is not effected by the on/off cycle, especially in NY with the northeast winters.



They are not incandescent design. Just Light Emitting Diodes. 
(Electronics) The weakest link with any of these fixtures is the circuit driver. That is typically what will fail first.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Fredman said:


> They are not incandescent design. Just Light Emitting Diodes.
> (Electronics) The weakest link with any of these fixtures is the circuit driver. That is typically what will fail first.


It is the LEDs that actually degrade. The output drops while power consumption remains about the same.

LEDs operate in 100 something degree range. HIDs arc capsule operates 1000+, so for practical purposes ambient temperature is not a factor in HIDs for practical purposes. 

If you run LED fixtures during the day in 130F ambient (as 55C UL listed ballasts are designed to do...) such as in unconditioned space or sun baked space, the heat generated + ambient temperature will raise it to a point that really speed up the decay.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> If you run LED fixtures during the day in 130F ambient (as 55C UL listed ballasts are designed to do...) such as in unconditioned space or sun baked space, the heat generated + ambient temperature will raise it to a point that really speed up the decay.


Which is why heat sinks are very important, and the cooler the environment, the longer they last.

What's your point?


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

http://www.betaled.com/RuudBetaLed/...iles/TD-13_Recommended_BetaLED_LD_Factors.pdf

Example of average ambient temperature effects on expected LED lumen maintenance.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Which is why heat sinks are very important, and the cooler the environment, the longer they last.
> 
> What's your point?


The temperature starts at ambient+n. There's nothing you can do practically to run LEDs below ambient, even with big heatsinks.

At 212F(100C) and 1,000 hours of storage, high power LEDs lose 3% of output^1 p.10 


Temperature at the steering wheel of a parked car easily gets to around 82C^2 p.12

So, you can imagine the effect on LEDs in sealed portions of outdoor luminaires exposed to full sun even if not in use. If you run them in the sun, it will get even hotter. The chip substrate may be able to cool down but the air temperature inside the lens will gain temperature like inside of a car. 

Practically speaking, outdoor fixtures are not used when sunlight is adequate, but consider indoor high-bays used in un air conditioned industrial buildings and warehouses that operate during daytime when ambient near the roof is very high. 


1. http://aqualuma.com/lumn/pdf/LED Behavior.pdf 

2 http://www.racq.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/48796/09_Temperature_in_Cars.pdf



Honestly said:


> http://www.betaled.com/RuudBetaLed/...iles/TD-13_Recommended_BetaLED_LD_Factors.pdf
> 
> Example of average ambient temperature effects on expected LED lumen maintenance.


This is based on night time temperature. It doesn't factor in the effect of high temperature storage, which is basically like inside a car parked in the sun all day and effect of this is addressed in the first report I linked.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> The temperature starts at ambient+n. There's nothing you can do practically to run LEDs below ambient, even with big heatsinks.
> 
> At 212F(100C) and 1,000 hours of storage, high power LEDs lose 3% of output^1 p.10
> 
> ...


Good link (first one, couldn't pull up second)
Brings up some good questions. It would be good to have some real world info on average ambient temps _inside_ of outdoor fixtures. Would a full cutoff fixture be cooler because it would not be getting sunlight directly through the lens? Bronze being most common, would white fixtures reflect more light, remaining cooler thus prolonging LED life? I would also like to see some info on ambient temps on the bottom side of gas station canopies.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Wrong thread





chewy said:


> Go home Nolabama, you are drunk.





nolabama said:


> Haha. I don't drink any more. Lol.


...but do you drink any less :laughing:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Another blow for LEDs

Something I didn't know until now is that they're apparently sensitive to chemical gases in small amounts. That is, small amounts of outgas from materials used to construct fixtures as they heat up. 

CREE says the damage is usually reversible, but it involves disassembly to let the LEDs "air out". This might as well be considered permanent damage though since such repairs are quite laborious if fixture design even allow you to expose the LEDs without breaking it.

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/C...amp Application Notes/XLamp_Chemical_Comp.pdf

LOL, fan cooling. It has moving parts. 





LOL at people who think power supplies are somehow immune to failures if they're used for powering LEDs.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Electric_Light said:


> It is the LEDs that actually degrade. The output drops while power consumption remains about the same.
> 
> LEDs operate in 100 something degree range. HIDs arc capsule operates 1000+, so for practical purposes ambient temperature is not a factor in HIDs for practical purposes.
> 
> If you run LED fixtures during the day in 130F ambient (as 55C UL listed ballasts are designed to do...) such as in unconditioned space or sun baked space, the heat generated + ambient temperature will raise it to a point that really speed up the decay.



My bad. Responded to quickly and missed the "shoebox" reference :whistling2:


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> Another blow for LEDs
> 
> Something I didn't know until now is that they're apparently sensitive to chemical gases in small amounts. That is, small amounts of outgas from materials used to construct fixtures as they heat up.
> 
> ...


Why don't you get GE or who ever you work for make a t8 shoebox since you think LED is just garbage. I agree led does not work for everything, just like fluorescent. When there is a good product you just find any way to shoot it down.


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