# Generac - Interesting.



## JohnJ0906

Well, let him know your beefs with that product, and maybe changes will be made..... or maybe not.


----------



## MDShunk

JohnJ0906 said:


> Well, let him know your beefs with that product, and maybe changes will be made..... or maybe not.


They might make good generators, but I just haven't run across any yet that fit my idea of what a good generator is. If cheap is good, then yeah, maybe they're good.


----------



## Stub

Seems like a good opportunity to get some info and give some advice. 

Maybe he could hook you up with some lower cost "trials" to see if you like them :thumbsup:


----------



## drsparky

You could power your Gazebo.


----------



## B4T

MDShunk said:


> Just got this today, and I thought I'd share:
> 
> _MD, my name is Bob Cramer and I work for Generac Power Systems as a technical advisor and trainer for our residential and commercial program._
> 
> _I have received a few emails and calls regarding some negative reaction you have posted regarding our product and wanted to reach out to you to see if there any questions you may have that I can answer. I have not had the time to look through all the post to find specific items of concern so I wanted to start fresh with an email to you and see if there is anything I can answer for you. I would also be willing to send you any data or documentation that you may need to help with the topics you are responding to which may help answer some of the questions out there._
> 
> _To give you a little background on me I am also and electrician, I started in the trades in 1986 serving an apprenticeship and went on to obtain my Masters license and Inspectors endorsement for Wisconsin._
> 
> _I look forward to hearing from you_
> 
> _Bob Cramer_
> _Generac Power Systems_


I think it is great someone from the company has responded to some of the issues that were brought out into the open in a previous thread :thumbsup:

Now if Bob Cramer would take the time to read the posts on this thread, it could get very interesting :thumbsup:


http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/generators-13224/


----------



## 480sparky

drsparky said:


> You could power your Gazebo.



No more drop cords for those bands. :whistling2:


----------



## nrp3

They could work on their warranty/customer support. When I call, being sent right to the consumer side of things without access to real tech support because I am not a dealer is unacceptable. You manufactured the product, now take some responsibility for it. Waiting around a month for parts in a warranty repair with no assurance that it will ever get repaired is also unacceptable. For all I know, with some support and some parts, I might be able to fix it myself and be whole lot happier.


----------



## s.kelly

I agree that it is cool he is interested enough to seek you out,and also think that experience in the trades is good and means he might understand complaints.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Where did I heard his name before .,,,,

It kinda ring the bell but not sure where.

Anyway If Bob Cramer is reading this now all I want to him to see how we feel about getting tech support and improve the way we need parts to install the generators { espcally this is true in commercal location }

And one of the days I will stop by the Generac headquarters when I get back from France.

Merci,Marc


----------



## bcramer

JohnJ0906 said:


> Well, let him know your beefs with that product, and maybe changes will be made..... or maybe not.


John I received an email back from Marc and at the current time his only concern is who Generac Power Systems manufactures for and I answer that for him.


----------



## bcramer

MDShunk said:


> They might make good generators, but I just haven't run across any yet that fit my idea of what a good generator is. If cheap is good, then yeah, maybe they're good.


If you define ‘cheap generators’ as ‘affordable and great value’, then I’d agree that cheap=good. The fact is Generac generators have more and better features, at a lower price, than other brands. The alleged high quality Kohlers are overpriced and don’t come with all the features that Generac generators come with like Quiet-Test weekly self tests, high performance US-made OHVI engines, full electronic LCD displays on the control panel, etc. And the Generac generators come with pre-wired transfer switches to make the installation a heck of a lot easier than Kohlers and Briggs units. There’s a reason why Generac has 70% market share and the vast majority of other electrical companies use Generac for their private label generators – companies like Eaton, Siemens and Carrier – it’s high quality product at the most affordable price in the market.


----------



## bcramer

Stub said:


> Seems like a good opportunity to get some info and give some advice.
> 
> Maybe he could hook you up with some lower cost "trials" to see if you like them :thumbsup:


We would be happy to work something out.


----------



## bcramer

nrp3 said:


> They could work on their warranty/customer support. When I call, being sent right to the consumer side of things without access to real tech support because I am not a dealer is unacceptable. You manufactured the product, now take some responsibility for it. Waiting around a month for parts in a warranty repair with no assurance that it will ever get repaired is also unacceptable. For all I know, with some support and some parts, I might be able to fix it myself and be whole lot happier.


I agree that we have some work to do and our Customer First team is addressing some of this. We have programs in place and we continue to improve them for all of our customers not just our dealers. Anyone calling 888-Generac with technical questions that is an installing contractor/engineer (not one of our dealers) is sent over to the technical support group. Our focus is to have the "person" working on the generator properly trained to do so.


----------



## jwjrw

The bigger diesel models say 19kw and up are great. I've had no call backs on the two I installed. I would install another one with no concern.
I'm quoting a job now where the HO bought one from Costco I think its a Guardian but its a residential model and the quality does seem lesser to me.


----------



## bcramer

frenchelectrican said:


> Where did I heard his name before .,,,,
> 
> It kinda ring the bell but not sure where.
> 
> Anyway If Bob Cramer is reading this now all I want to him to see how we feel about getting tech support and improve the way we need parts to install the generators { espcally this is true in commercal location }
> 
> And one of the days I will stop by the Generac headquarters when I get back from France.
> 
> Merci,Marc


You are invited to stop by and visit us anytime, with proper notice of course. We try to give our installing contractor’s tours if they are ever passing through or attending advanced training classes.


----------



## bcramer

jwjrw said:


> The bigger diesel models say 19kw and up are great. I've had no call backs on the two I installed. I would install another one with no concern.
> I'm quoting a job now where the HO bought one from Costco I think its a Guardian but its a residential model and the quality does seem lesser to me.


JW, our current diesel lineup does not include a 19kW model, the product offering for diesel ranges 10kW to 600kW which you can see at www.generac.com under the industrial tab. The Costco unit is a NG/LP generator and is by no means anything like a diesel unit. The Costco unit uses an air-cooled engine and the diesel unit is a liquid cooled unit and the controls on the 2 differ greatly. The cost between the 2 is also different and it wouldn’t be fair to compare the two head to head because they are so many differences. You can also look at the specs under the residential tab for the Costco unit so you can see what you will be installing. Good luck on the quote.


----------



## electricmanscott

Is this the Same Generac that call me constantly? I finally returned a call to the woman that always called because I wanted to get more info on what they were selling and of course they never called me back.

The calls have started uninterupted again but now I just ignore them.


----------



## Bob Badger

My experience with Genracs have been commercial installations from about 20 to 100 Kw.

I went to supervise the start up of a Brand new unit about 100 KW, the shaft running from the crank pulley under the radiator to a drive a fan was so out of line that the on site tech had to rip the front end apart to fix.

Ordered the unit with a 100 and 200 amp breakers, it showed up with one 300 amp breaker. They later shipped the correct breakers but that holds things up. 

Under what I would call the _'worst idea ever'_ moving the brains of the ATS into the generator SUCKS!!!! For years each genertor company has used two wire start circuits simple and effective. In the past when a generator goes down for service we could rent a temporary one and tie it into the ATS and the ATS would control the temporary one while other is being repaired. Can't do that with the brains in the broken generator.

In my personal opinion I would take an old or new Onan over any Genrac unit.


----------



## nrp3

Thanks for taking the time to respond to some of our concerns. Maybe the company has changed the phone support recently, but thats not what I experienced looking for help last month. Maybe it was a bad combination of circumstances, I don't know. In your defense, the higher dollar Cummins that I installed last summer failed where a much less expensive 17kw Generac seems to be fine. I have both on a yearly contract with the same dealer. My problem is with a couple of portables (GP 7000E) and that has dampened any desire to buy any more of your products if this how problems will be solved. I have at least two standby units to install in the coming months. What brand I choose, depends on how this is resolved. My portables have yet to be fixed and I am on my second repair shop and its been over a month. This amounts to $4000 I can't bill for. I'd like my money and I'd like to take care of my customers. I tire of complaining, just help solve problems quicker in the future.


----------



## jwjrw

bcramer said:


> JW, our current diesel lineup does not include a 19kW model, the product offering for diesel ranges 10kW to 600kW which you can see at www.generac.com under the industrial tab. The Costco unit is a NG/LP generator and is by no means anything like a diesel unit. The Costco unit uses an air-cooled engine and the diesel unit is a liquid cooled unit and the controls on the 2 differ greatly. The cost between the 2 is also different and it wouldn’t be fair to compare the two head to head because they are so many differences. You can also look at the specs under the residential tab for the Costco unit so you can see what you will be installing. Good luck on the quote.


 
Well my memory may be wrong. I thought they were both 18 or 19 kw and I know one had an upsized alternator. I know you cant compare the NG/LP to the diesel but you can tell the diesel is a quality made product. Where as the NG/LP unit seems to be cheaply made. If you searched the other threads you would of seen pictures of the 2 I did.


----------



## randomkiller

Let's put the cards on the table here and call a spade a spade. All the Generac residential equipment I have seen just screams cheap sh1t. From paint jobs and light gauge sheetmetal, to poor start up commissioning problems, etc. Your customer service for non dealers is insulting to say the least. I have never been on a job with your larger industrial sized products, seems Onan and Cat have that market about closed up on in my area.


----------



## bcramer

electricmanscott said:


> Is this the Same Generac that call me constantly? I finally returned a call to the woman that always called because I wanted to get more info on what they were selling and of course they never called me back.
> 
> The calls have started uninterupted again but now I just ignore them.


So many times with blogs it’s difficult to get the answer to what people are requesting because enough information isn’t provided. The calls you received more then likely came from our dealer acquisition group, to help you resolve this please send me a private note with “the woman’s” name, your information and I will find out who is trying to get in touch with you. I need to know your company name, phone number and the best time to get in touch with you.


----------



## bcramer

Bob Badger said:


> My experience with Genracs have been commercial installations from about 20 to 100 Kw.
> 
> I went to supervise the start up of a Brand new unit about 100 KW, the shaft running from the crank pulley under the radiator to a drive a fan was so out of line that the on site tech had to rip the front end apart to fix.
> 
> Ordered the unit with a 100 and 200 amp breakers, it showed up with one 300 amp breaker. They later shipped the correct breakers but that holds things up.
> 
> Under what I would call the _'worst idea ever'_ moving the brains of the ATS into the generator SUCKS!!!! For years each genertor company has used two wire start circuits simple and effective. In the past when a generator goes down for service we could rent a temporary one and tie it into the ATS and the ATS would control the temporary one while other is being repaired. Can't do that with the brains in the broken generator.
> 
> In my personal opinion I would take an old or new Onan over any Genrac unit.


Bob, please provide me the serial number of the unit you are referring to in this post, I would like to look into it for you. The decision for Generac Power Systems to have the “brains” in the generator and not the switch is marketing genius. This was established years ago and secured the sale of a switch with every generator sold. Having our private label agreements with new customers we have modified our controllers to work with their switches which in some cases are two wire start systems.


----------



## bcramer

nrp3 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond to some of our concerns. Maybe the company has changed the phone support recently, but thats not what I experienced looking for help last month. Maybe it was a bad combination of circumstances, I don't know. In your defense, the higher dollar Cummins that I installed last summer failed where a much less expensive 17kw Generac seems to be fine. I have both on a yearly contract with the same dealer. My problem is with a couple of portables (GP 7000E) and that has dampened any desire to buy any more of your products if this how problems will be solved. I have at least two standby units to install in the coming months. What brand I choose, depends on how this is resolved. My portables have yet to be fixed and I am on my second repair shop and its been over a month. This amounts to $4000 I can't bill for. I'd like my money and I'd like to take care of my customers. I tire of complaining, just help solve problems quicker in the future.


Again I must repeat with not having all the information at my disposal I am unable to comment. Please send me a private note with the serial numbers on the two units and I can look into it. All of the calls that come into our customer support or technical center are recorded for each unit so if you called in I will be able to see the notes. If you took them to a qualified repair center and the unit were under warranty we will be able to see that as well.


----------



## Two-headed boy

About a year ago I installed a Gaurdian Series 17kw generator at my father in laws farm house. I thought it was a piece of cake to install, Siemens breakers, he loves it, weekly tests, converted over to propane with no problems. The power went out for several days this winter and all his neighbors were at his place for those days. Just wanted to throw a positive story out there. I dont have experience with Generac on a monthly basis or even yearly so I am not as experienced as some of you with the products but I would recommend thier 17kw with no problem.


----------



## bcramer

randomkiller said:


> Let's put the cards on the table here and call a spade a spade. All the Generac residential equipment I have seen just screams cheap sh1t. From paint jobs and light gauge sheetmetal, to poor start up commissioning problems, etc. Your customer service for non dealers is insulting to say the least. I have never been on a job with your larger industrial sized products, seems Onan and Cat have that market about closed up on in my area.


Random Killer, The air cooled product utilize Galvaneel steel which is a process of bonding zinc to the steel to drastically reduce scratching which lead to rust. It is then also electro statically powder coated with the Rhino coating which is textured to better adhere to any bends, open edges or creases. There is also an aluminum option for coast areas which also utilizes the Rhino coat. Liquid cooled units are also painted through the same methods with the Rhino coating and the steel and aluminum enclosure for both products is 16 gauge. What unit cause you trouble on the start up? With Generac providing one of the most advanced controllers in the market some contractors do experience problems if they do not go through proper training. We invite you to become a servicing dealer to avoid future issues and Generac doesn't compete head to head with CAT above 600 kW but *we do* supply CAT with most of their gas product.


----------



## Bob Badger

bcramer said:


> Bob, please provide me the serial number of the unit you are referring to in this post, I would like to look into it for you.




Not sure if that is possible, the unit is 2.5 hours from our shop.



> The decision for Generac Power Systems to have the “brains” in the generator and not the switch is marketing genius.


Is it?

As I will do all that I can to keep our customers from choosing a Generac because of this.

If I have a customer with an emergency generator go down I want to be able to haul in a rent unit with no fuss and my customers want that as well.


----------



## bcramer

Bob Badger said:


> Not sure if that is possible, the unit is 2.5 hours from our shop.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it?
> 
> As I will do all that I can to keep our customers from choosing a Generac because of this.
> 
> If I have a customer with an emergency generator go down I want to be able to haul in a rent unit with no fuss and my customers want that as well.


I would have the serial number in my files if I was out servicing a unit. 

Generac units have two wire start capability and those that go through training learn this.

Not sure what your challenge is with setting up temp units and why are you asking the switch to cycle between generator and utility during an outage?


----------



## B4T

Bob.. first of all, welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

I have been a Generac dealer for the past (7) years and have installed units from 6kw. - 20kw.

All the units have performed perfectly and all my customers are happy they got a dependable product.

There have been a few threads here where Generac has been compared to other units on the market.

Many posts have been Generac = junk.

I think its great both you and Generac have taken the time to answer some of the concerns and separate fact from fiction.


----------



## Bob Badger

bcramer said:


> I would have the serial number in my files if I was out servicing a unit.


Well you are far better then I am or it may be that I am not servicing the unit, only supervising the start up. 



> Generac units have two wire start capability and those that go through training learn this.


I am not a Generac dealer I am part of a large electrical contracting company, I have not one bit of interest in becoming a dealer or service tech.



> Not sure what your challenge is with setting up temp units and why are you asking the switch to cycle between generator and utility during an outage?


And I am not sure what you do not understand.

The units I deal with provide the legally required power for egress lighting, if the generator breaks down (which they all do eventually) the customer can either close their store until it is repaired (not really an option) or we rent a temporary unit and connect that to the emergency side of a 'standard' ATS and connect the two wire start from the ATS to the temporary generator. At that point we can then have the the original unit repaired or replaced and the store still has the required egress lighting.

Can you explain how that would work with the brains of the ATS in the broken generator?

Going back to your previous post



bcramer said:


> The decision for Generac Power Systems to have the “brains” in the generator and not the switch is marketing genius. This was established years ago and secured the sale of a switch with every generator sold.


I think that speaks volumes about the company attitude, it sounds much like Simplex fire alarm. You just do not give a rats behind about the customers, only that you have locked them into a certain type of system.

I would prefer to work with a vendor that wants to provide great customer service so that the customer wants to use that vendor not has use them.


----------



## bcramer

Bob Badger said:


> Well you are far better then I am or it may be that I am not servicing the unit, only supervising the start up.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a Generac dealer I am part of a large electrical contracting company, I have not one bit of interest in becoming a dealer or service tech.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am not sure what you do not understand.
> 
> The units I deal with provide the legally required power for egress lighting, if the generator breaks down (which they all do eventually) the customer can either close their store until it is repaired (not really an option) or we rent a temporary unit and connect that to the emergency side of a 'standard' ATS and connect the two wire start from the ATS to the temporary generator. At that point we can then have the the original unit repaired or replaced and the store still has the required egress lighting.
> 
> Can you explain how that would work with the brains of the ATS in the broken generator?
> 
> Going back to your previous post
> 
> 
> 
> I think that speaks volumes about the company attitude, it sounds much like Simplex fire alarm. You just do not give a rats behind about the customers, only that you have locked them into a certain type of system.
> 
> I would prefer to work with a vendor that wants to provide great customer service so that the customer wants to use that vendor not has use them.


Bob I decided to come on to this blog to assist contractors and electricians with issues they are having trouble with as it relates to Generac Power Systems and forward those concerns to the appropriate internal group. I started in the trades in 86 and am also a master electrician so I can also feel their pain. When a person post a negative comment about a product they are working with, it is assumed they have the information about that unit that is causing them so much grief to back up that post. It has nothing to do with someone being better then the other, just prepared to talk about it. When I ask for a serial number it is so I can look at the notes and see what was done with the unit and report back to that person as to whether or not the proper procedure was followed. Like you I also have other things to do and am only trying to assist.

This thread was not talking about "Legally Required" systems, if that is the case then yes all Generac’s products that are intended for *that* use ARE capable of two wire start.

As far as manufacturing an item that requires you to purchase a switch also manufactured by the same company is smart. I surprised that you bring up Simplex; with their merger with Grinnell in 2001 they took control of a large portion of the market and are very success for doing that, isn’t that the American way. Let me know when Microsoft starts making things to be used in an Apple application.

As I stated in earlier post we have had some customer issues in the past and with our current CEO, he is dedicated for us to get back on track and make the customer FIRST again.


----------



## bcramer

jwjrw said:


> Well my memory may be wrong. I thought they were both 18 or 19 kw and I know one had an upsized alternator. I know you cant compare the NG/LP to the diesel but you can tell the diesel is a quality made product. Where as the NG/LP unit seems to be cheaply made. If you searched the other threads you would of seen pictures of the 2 I did.


Those are configured units that I seen in the pictures you posted which are run through our industrial side of the business. There is a difference in the construction of those and the Home Standby units we are talking about, just like a receptacle in a hospital versus one install in a home. The specifications are different because of the application. 

By the way the installs look good.


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> I am not a Generac dealer I am part of a large electrical contracting company, I have not one bit of interest in becoming a dealer or service tech.


Since your company gets involved with Generac, in one form or another, what do you have to lose by going to one of their mobile service clinics?

Knowledge is never wasted even if you don't like the product.


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> Since your company gets involved with Generac, in one form or another, what do you have to lose by going to one of their mobile service clinics?


My time which has some value, I am typically at work 9 to 10 hrs each day and I am still behind.

When we buy a unit start up tech time is included.

Typically we are contracted to supply and install the units. Servicng the units is by a generator company, but the temporary sets ups we take care of. Typically the techs are not licensed electricians so we handle the items that require licensing.


----------



## Bob Badger

bcramer said:


> Bob I decided to come on to this blog to assist contractors and electricians with issues they are having trouble with as it relates to Generac Power Systems




That is great, I thank you for taking the time. I mean this sincerely.




> When a person post a negative comment about a product they are working with, it is assumed they have the information about that unit that is causing them so much grief to back up that post. It has nothing to do with someone being better then the other, just prepared to talk about it.



I do not bother to keep a list of all equipment serial numbers I have touched, yet I still can talk about them. Especially the equipment that causes me to work a 20 hour day and sleep in my truck before I could drive home.




> This thread was not talking about "Legally Required" systems,


Really, I thought it was about Generac products. 



> As far as manufacturing an item that requires you to purchase a switch also manufactured by the same company is smart. I surprised that you bring up Simplex; with their merger with Grinnell in 2001 they took control of a large portion of the market and are very success for doing that, isn’t that the American way. Let me know when Microsoft starts making things to be used in an Apple application.


Again this speaks loudly about your point of view, you seem to feel that Simplex's or Microsoft's or success says something good about their products. It does not, Microsoft is a great example of a successful company that makes marginal products and that does not care at all about their customers. Bill was just a master of marketing.



> As I stated in earlier post we have had some customer issues in the past and with our current CEO, he is dedicated for us to get back on track and make the customer FIRST again.


It will be interesting to see if that happens, Simplex was just at our offices last week promising they would change and asking if we would start considering using their products when the choice is ours. I doubt we will based on our past experience with them.


----------



## MDShunk

Mr. Cramer, what do you propose I do when I pull a rental genset up to a job and there's no typical ATS with a 2-wire start output? How, exactly, do you propose I quickly, efficiently, and safely connect a rental genset up to a system that has a out-of-service generac with its built-in ATS brain? This is a genuine problem. What might be marketing genius (and I agree, by the way), is a royal pain in the keister for customers and electricians who want their stuff back online NOW. With an ATS with a 2-wire output, I can have a rental genset online very quickly. With a downed Generac, with the ATS brain built into the genset, and a "dumb" ATS, you've forced me into installing a regular ATS, which takes considerably more time.


----------



## garfield

*Thank you*

Mr. Cramer, 
Thank you for your willingness to enter into this public forum and actually address people's concerns.


----------



## frenchelectrican

bcramer said:


> You are invited to stop by and visit us anytime, with proper notice of course. We try to give our installing contractor’s tours if they are ever passing through or attending advanced training classes.


 Thanks for your words and I will let you know in advance note when I do plan to come to your manufactering location and I am sure you will want some of my feedback and I will be more than happy to answer your question it may arise.



Merci,Marc


----------



## Roger123

Mr. Cramer, again thanks for all your replies.

My company installs your generators for a retailer. We have installed a number of the Generacs and currently there has been no problems to date.

However, I did have some trouble with your tech support. When contacted and I advised I needed some info on a residential install, I was referred back to the dealer. This didn't make any sense. The dealer doesn't know how to install the units. I hope you can change that part of your support.


----------



## tkb

bcramer said:


> I would have the serial number in my files if I was out servicing a unit.
> 
> Generac units have two wire start capability and those that go through training learn this.
> 
> Not sure what your challenge is with setting up temp units and why are you asking the switch to cycle between generator and utility during an outage?


Bob, thanks for joining the discussion.

The HTS switch does not accept a two wire start signal and only communicates with the H panel via a data cable. This is a problem if the generator fails and you need to bring in a roll up temp generator.

Only the GTS switch accepts a two wire start and does not communicate with the H panel.

I saw a design of a board for an HTS switch that had an additional relay for two wire start but was told that is not available and was abandoned because the engineering dept could not get it to work.

If the HTS switch has two wire start capabilities then it is news to me.
We are the training center for Generac for New England.


----------



## nrp3

Even though we are having some troubles with a couple of portables I would still like to get down to Mass for some classes when time and money permit. Maybe the portables and most likely the aircooled class.


----------



## jwjrw

bcramer said:


> Those are configured units that I seen in the pictures you posted which are run through our industrial side of the business. There is a difference in the construction of those and the Home Standby units we are talking about, just like a receptacle in a hospital versus one install in a home. The specifications are different because of the application.
> 
> By the way the installs look good.


 
Like I said the industrial units scream quality. I don't think the residential models do. I will be buying a genset for my house this year and will shop all the major brands generac included. However the Generac models I've seen on the residential side have not screamed quality like the industrial ones I've installed. Until I see the other major manufactures units in the same size I will keep an open mind.
Please keep in mind when I say the residential models seem cheaply made to me that was my FIRST impression from an electrican in the field. Just like a women in a short rubber skirt may give the impression of being a ho.
Coming on here is a good thing for Generac. We are professionals giving you real advice about why we dont like your product AND your customer service.
Listen and pass this up the line. I have no bias against Generac. If anything I'm partial to your product but I didnt get all warm and fuzzy after seeing the resi gen I saw. You only get to make a first impression one time.


----------



## Two-headed boy

I dont get it. The Generac resi model I installed last year was sweet and I have looked at various brands and models. What other brands and models do you think are superior to Generac and why?


----------



## Bob Badger

Keeping in mind I do commercial work I would say Cummings-Onan, Caterpillar, Volvo-Penta.


----------



## kbsparky

I have been involved on some projects with installation of transfer switches and generators. While I have not been the one who specified or purchased the gen sets themselves, I have dealt with a number of dealers who are involved in this end of the supply chain.

One of the things that I have heard -- repeatedly -- is that the Generac stuff is junk, and their customers don't realize it until their units are a few years old, and they need service and repair. That is when the reality kicks in, in trying to get replacement parts. They tell me it's hell either in getting the parts in a timely manner, or at a reasonable price (or both). While this may be considered heresay, there are many similar recommendations that can be had in this trade, both positive and negative, based on the experiences of others. So as far as that is concerned, when I hear numerous negative experiences on the same manufacturer, it makes me want to avoid doing business with them.

There is one thing that I have also repeatedly heard about gen sets that can set apart a good unit from a cheap one is the operating RPM. Good = 1800, and cheap = 3600. The units that operate at 1800 RPM have dual windings, the engine runs slower (thus using less fuel), quieter, and does not wear out as fast. 

How many of your smaller units (less than 20kW) operate at 1800 RPM?


----------



## nrp3

I remember discussing this issue with the dealer I bought the cummins from, I could buy Kohler and Generac from him too. I wonder if any of the smaller aircooled ones from anybody run at the lower rpms. It was one of the reasons I chose the Cummins, but it was a liquid cooled 30kw.


----------



## jwjrw

nrp3 said:


> I remember discussing this issue with the dealer I bought the cummins from, I could buy Kohler and Generac from him too. I wonder if any of the smaller aircooled ones from anybody run at the lower rpms. It was one of the reasons I chose the Cummins, but it was a liquid cooled 30kw.


Don't know but before I buy one for the house I'm going to look at all my choices and buy whichever one I feel is made the best. Ill let yall know which one I decide on.


----------



## frenchelectrican

I have one portable unit { it is not a Generac model but a cheap Coleman unit } it look pretty new and it only have few hours on the unit the main stator on 120 volt winding is fine however the 12 volt section for stator that was shorted out due it can not able make any voltage for rotor { rotaing feild } at all.

I did check the price for the stator housing with new winding in there to my suprised they want a bit of money which it cost almost half what I can able get new gazoline portable unit is.

Merci,Marc


----------



## bauler

Mr Cramer
Thanks for coming here and hearing all our concerns. That said, your products are crap and your customer service is awfull. I installed one of your 16kw units 2 years on a new house. My customer bought your unit from Amazon.com. I installed it, went to start it, no go. Went through all your trouble shooting guide, checked oil level, switches, barrowed a manometer to check gas pressure, ect, ect. I called your customer service. Went over everything with your tech, then he tells me to take the air cleaner off and put a rag over the carperator to start, huh, but it worked. No problem, tech was great.

Fast forward 6-8 months later. Unit will not stay running. Went through all the trouble shooting again, same thing. Customer contacted you, lots of hoops. Finally found an authorized tech about 90 miles away, he came out, worked for awhile, same trouble again. Here it is 2 years later, out of waranty and my customer is without his generator. 

The trouble is I'm a electrician and not a mechanic, tech is a mechanic and not a electrician. I don't feel comfortable selling a product that the company will not back up their product.


----------



## randomkiller

Say what you will but the bottom line is always the same you get what you pay for.
Generac is cheap for the little resi type crap.


----------



## bcramer

jwjrw said:


> Like I said the industrial units scream quality. I don't think the residential models do. I will be buying a genset for my house this year and will shop all the major brands generac included. However the Generac models I've seen on the residential side have not screamed quality like the industrial ones I've installed. Until I see the other major manufactures units in the same size I will keep an open mind.
> Please keep in mind when I say the residential models seem cheaply made to me that was my FIRST impression from an electrican in the field. Just like a women in a short rubber skirt may give the impression of being a ho.
> Coming on here is a good thing for Generac. We are professionals giving you real advice about why we dont like your product AND your customer service.
> Listen and pass this up the line. I have no bias against Generac. If anything I'm partial to your product but I didnt get all warm and fuzzy after seeing the resi gen I saw. You only get to make a first impression one time.


Sorry for the late response to your post, I have been travelling and have limited access to my emails. I want to focus this thread back to where it started, MD posted a negative comment about Generac and when confronted his only question was about whom Generac manufactures product for. I will try and help anyone who is having issues with customer or technical support but the common problem is that the proper steps have not been taken. This is a great platform to post concern and try to get answers but the unprofessional comments and lack of actual issues clouds the thread and the people looking for help are often lost in the shuffle. 

So your comment on quality, what exactly is your issue with the quality? Generac manufactures for several different companies EATON, Siemens, CAT Olympian series (thanks to those who support the CAT product) and others who feel the quality of the Generac products meet their standards. Generac has about 70 percent of the market and continues to add customers because of the leading technology used in its manufacturing of their products. Most of the design and changes to the product are a direct result of the comments and concerns of the contractors doing the installs. 

I will continue to listen to your concerns and I AM passing them up the line to the people that need to see and hear this.

No comment on girls in rubber skirts, sorry.


----------



## bcramer

bauler said:


> Mr Cramer
> Thanks for coming here and hearing all our concerns. That said, your products are crap and your customer service is awfull. I installed one of your 16kw units 2 years on a new house. My customer bought your unit from Amazon.com. I installed it, went to start it, no go. Went through all your trouble shooting guide, checked oil level, switches, barrowed a manometer to check gas pressure, ect, ect. I called your customer service. Went over everything with your tech, then he tells me to take the air cleaner off and put a rag over the carperator to start, huh, but it worked. No problem, tech was great.
> 
> Fast forward 6-8 months later. Unit will not stay running. Went through all the trouble shooting again, same thing. Customer contacted you, lots of hoops. Finally found an authorized tech about 90 miles away, he came out, worked for awhile, same trouble again. Here it is 2 years later, out of waranty and my customer is without his generator.
> 
> The trouble is I'm a electrician and not a mechanic, tech is a mechanic and not a electrician. I don't feel comfortable selling a product that the company will not back up their product.


Send me the serial number of the unit allong with the zip code of the installation and I will look into it.


----------



## bcramer

kbsparky said:


> I have been involved on some projects with installation of transfer switches and generators. While I have not been the one who specified or purchased the gen sets themselves, I have dealt with a number of dealers who are involved in this end of the supply chain.
> 
> One of the things that I have heard -- repeatedly -- is that the Generac stuff is junk, and their customers don't realize it until their units are a few years old, and they need service and repair. That is when the reality kicks in, in trying to get replacement parts. They tell me it's hell either in getting the parts in a timely manner, or at a reasonable price (or both). While this may be considered heresay, there are many similar recommendations that can be had in this trade, both positive and negative, based on the experiences of others. So as far as that is concerned, when I hear numerous negative experiences on the same manufacturer, it makes me want to avoid doing business with them.
> 
> There is one thing that I have also repeatedly heard about gen sets that can set apart a good unit from a cheap one is the operating RPM. Good = 1800, and cheap = 3600. The units that operate at 1800 RPM have dual windings, the engine runs slower (thus using less fuel), quieter, and does not wear out as fast.
> 
> How many of your smaller units (less than 20kW) operate at 1800 RPM?


Our air-cooled product runs at 3600rpm and our liquid-cooled product 10kw and up runs 1800 to 3600 depending on models. All of our spec sheets are available at www.generac.com


----------



## Bob Badger

Mr Cramer, I do thank you for coming back, I think it takes some guts on you're end to post here.





bcramer said:


> I will try and help anyone who is having issues with customer or technical support but the common problem is that the proper steps have not been taken.


So it is not that Genracs customer service is poor it is that the customers do not know how to deal with Genrac when they have a problem.

Interesting spin blaming the people that buy your product for not knowing how to get service when it breaks.



> This is a great platform to post concern and try to get answers but the unprofessional comments and lack of actual issues clouds the thread and the people looking for help are often lost in the shuffle.


So basically if someone speaks honestly about their experiences with Generac and it is uncomplimentary they are 'unprofessional'.

Again blaming the customers or users of you're product.



> Generac has about 70 percent of the market and continues to add customers because of the leading technology used in its manufacturing of their products.


Lets be honest, Genrac is gaining market share because they sell for less then most other units of the same size not because of some great technology.



> Most of the design and changes to the product are a direct result of the comments and concerns of the contractors doing the installs.


Did someone ask for Genrac to add a gearbox between the motor and the generator? Gearboxes used under continuous high loading are prone to failure particularly sandwiched between a hot engine and generator. At least provide an oil cooler for the gearbox.

Gear boxes are a major cause of failures for wind turbines but in those there is no choice but to use a gear box.

Did another customer ask that 50% of the threaded holes that hold the covers on the electrical enclosure show up already striped out?

Who asked that the field wiring enter a compartment with large unguarded spinning parts?


----------



## Mark_R

bcramer said:


> As far as manufacturing an item that requires you to purchase a switch also manufactured by the same company is smart. I surprised that you bring up Simplex; with their merger with Grinnell in 2001 they took control of a large portion of the market and are very success for doing that, isn’t that the American way. Let me know when Microsoft starts making things to be used in an Apple application.


Wow, 
I had to join just to reply to that.
That sadly _is_ the American way. At least corporate America. Market share does not indicate quality.
We have a fire alarm division, of the dozens of customers we service who have Simplex systems, every single one can't stand that company. Every single one. The systems were installed by lowballing the bid at install and then sticking it to the customer for the rest of time. I have had three customers bash the panel with a sledge on the day we replaced it. I have bid jobs where the bid specification was "Anything except Simplex" True story.
This is not a company you want to tout as being a good role model in the presence of electricians.

Don't even get me started on Microsoft.

Generac has lost many sales from my desk due to the "dumb" ATS issue. That is a non-starter for me (no pun intended). We have had the same problem with the temporary generator hook ups mentioned earlier as well.
We recently had to install a generator at a facility pre-wired with a Generac "dumb" transfer switch, do you think we bought a Generac because that was the corner we were forced into? Hell no, the Generac transfer switch went into the dumpster and was replaced.

Kudos to your marketing team there. You underestimate the negative impact of pissing people off. 

Some of us still run our business with principal before profit. I want customers because people choose to do business with us, not because they are forced to.

I do applaud you for confirming on the open internet what I suspected all along; that bucking the industry standard for starting generators was a marketing ploy to protect your market, not because it was technically superior. I'm printing that one to show my customers.

Maybe your generators are quality, maybe not, I don't know or care, but I will steer my customers away from your product at every opportunity based solely on your "smart marketing" attitude.


----------



## MDShunk

bcramer said:


> I want to focus this thread back to where it started, MD posted a negative comment about Generac and when confronted his only question was about whom Generac manufactures product for.


Don't suppose you're curious why I did that, are you?

Well, let me tell you. Eventually, every open mind will close upon some resolution. I have resolved that I don't like Generac. I really don't have any questions. Everything I needed to know has been already answered, through field experience. The only remaining question, for me, was what other brand names these things were hiding under. Thanks for answering my question. 

I guess when a marketing person stumbles upon a person that doesn't like their product, they automatically assume they lack information or education on their product. If I was in generator sales, that's the standpoint I'd take too. I'm here to tell you, though, that this is one educated consumer and contractor who will not install Generac.


----------



## B4T

MDShunk said:


> I'm here to tell you, though, that this is one educated consumer and contractor who will not install Generac.


Marc.. can you list the things you don't like about GENERAC?

Maybe the issues that you don't like will get fixed if the people in charge knew what they were.

Just the fact that a GENERAC rep came onto this forum shows they are interested in making a better product and listening to the good, bad, and ugly.


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> Just the fact that a GENERAC rep came onto this forum shows they are interested in making a better product and listening to the good, bad, and ugly.


We must be reading different threads. :blink:


----------



## B4T

bcramer said:


> I will continue to listen to your concerns and I AM passing them up the line to the people that need to see and hear this.


Sounds like they are interested in making a better product or do you think Bob Cramer is just blowing smoke??:blink:


----------



## Southeast Power

MDShunk said:


> Don't suppose you're curious why I did that, are you?
> 
> Well, let me tell you. Eventually, every open mind will close upon some resolution. I have resolved that I don't like Generac. I really don't have any questions. Everything I needed to know has been already answered, through field experience. The only remaining question, for me, was what other brand names these things were hiding under. Thanks for answering my question.
> 
> I guess when a marketing person stumbles upon a person that doesn't like their product, they automatically assume they lack information or education on their product. If I was in generator sales, that's the standpoint I'd take too. I'm here to tell you, though, that this is one educated consumer and contractor who will not install Generac.


We just won a job that would "allow" Generac to be installed but, we choose to take about $10,000 less in pure profit not to be associated with installing that brand.
If they are committed to cleaning themselves up, they should consider a name change to go along with it...


----------



## sbrn33

You guys are funny, generac is about 50% cheaper. which means its a residential grade gen. Couple it with the seimens gen panel and transfer switch and there is nothing easier in the business when it comes to home gen sets.
There are better brands out there but for double the price to the average home owner, there is only 1


----------



## bauler

bcramer said:


> Send me the serial number of the unit allong with the zip code of the installation and I will look into it.



Thanks, thats all I ask, take care of my customer. I'll be sure to post how it comes out. I know my customer is gone till the first part of June. I'll get in touch then.
Thanks again
Bill Bauler


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> Sounds like they are interested in making a better product or do you think Bob Cramer is just blowing smoke??:blink:


I think I have stated pretty clearly what I think.


----------



## Bob Badger

sbrn33 said:


> You guys are funny, generac is about 50% cheaper. which means its a residential grade gen.


So the 100 KW three phase unit I worked with was for a residence?

Generac wants to sell to all, not just homeowners.


----------



## kbsparky

sbrn33 said:


> ...
> There are better brands out there but for double the price to the average home owner, there is only 1


Funny, that is what they used to say about Federal Pacific panels and breakers back in the day..... :blink:


----------



## kbsparky

Funny thing here. I asked a question, and got what I would call a "canned" response. 

My question was very specific:


> How many of your smaller units (less than 20kW) operate at 1800 RPM?


Your reply?


bcramer said:


> Our air-cooled product runs at 3600rpm and our liquid-cooled product 10kw and up runs 1800 to 3600 depending on models. All of our spec sheets are available at www.generac.com


I went to the website mentioned and *could not find one unit* rated at 20 kW or less that operated at 1800 RPM. 

The units that I did find with that specification were very specific in pointing out that "feature" -- these were listed as "premium" models. They listed the very same things I mentioned, such as quiet running, longer engine life, less fuel consumption, etc.

I'll ask again: How many units 20kW or less operate at 1800 RPM? I'd like some specific model numbers this time, if you have any.


----------



## nrp3

I have been looking at 8kw +/- units and haven't found any brand with a 1800 rpm unit. Looking for a small unit for an elderly housing community room, a backup for lights and propane heater.


----------



## Southeast Power

kbsparky said:


> Funny thing here. I asked a question, and got what I would call a "canned" response.
> 
> My question was very specific:
> 
> 
> Your reply?
> 
> I went to the website mentioned and *could not find one unit* rated at 20 kW or less that operated at 1800 RPM.
> 
> The units that I did find with that specification were very specific in pointing out that "feature" -- these were listed as "premium" models. They listed the very same things I mentioned, such as quiet running, longer engine life, less fuel consumption, etc.
> 
> I'll ask again: How many units 20kW or less operate at 1800 RPM? I'd like some specific model numbers this time, if you have any.


We have very little gas service here in South Florida and 90% of the time a residential customer will have to bury a 500 or 1000 gallon LP tank in the ground. This adds about 6 grand to the cost of the project plus the heart attack when they get the bill for filling the tank. Propane is a little hotter than Natural Gas and about a third less efficient in turning stored fuel into horsepower than diesel. 
Therefore, the additional cost of purchasing and reduced cost of operating a diesel generator makes sense here. I just ordered a 20kw for a customer, 1800 rpm diesel, 100 gallon double walled tank with all of the bells and whistles. 
By the time he spent the money to buy a low end 3600 rpm gas unit and spending a couple of grand or more to fill the propane tank, he discovered that he could own a premium diesel unit, manufactured locally, powder coated aluminum sound attenuated enclosure, with an engine that will out live him.


----------



## kbsparky

As I research this, it appears that diesel units have a much lower overall operating cost than the LP models. 

I have a potential customer who has a large on-site storage tank of #2 fuel oil. Couple of thousand gallons of the stuff. Can that be used to directly fuel a diesel unit>?

How about the maintenance costs, diesel vs LP?


----------



## PowerFactor

> I'll ask again: How many units 20kW or less operate at 1800 RPM? I'd like some specific model numbers this time, if you have any


.

Possibly the units that bcramer referred to on Generacs site are the SD010 and the SD015 models. 2.4l turbocharged diesel, 1800 rpm industrial.
http://www.generac.com/Industrial/Diesel/


----------



## kbsparky

OK, it appears that there are actually 3 models available. I did not search the "industrial diesel" listings because I was looking at the residential/commercial listings --- restricting my results to LPG fueled models.

My bad for not considering diesel models in the search.

Now that I have something to compare to, what would the costs for a 15 kW single phase unit be compared to a similar model of another make? Both would have to be diesel fueled, with the required 1800 RPM engine ....


----------



## RIVETER

jrannis said:


> We have very little gas service here in South Florida and 90% of the time a residential customer will have to bury a 500 or 1000 gallon LP tank in the ground. This adds about 6 grand to the cost of the project plus the heart attack when they get the bill for filling the tank. Propane is a little hotter than Natural Gas and about a third less efficient in turning stored fuel into horsepower than diesel.
> Therefore, the additional cost of purchasing and reduced cost of operating a diesel generator makes sense here. I just ordered a 20kw for a customer, 1800 rpm diesel, 100 gallon double walled tank with all of the bells and whistles.
> By the time he spent the money to buy a low end 3600 rpm gas unit and spending a couple of grand or more to fill the propane tank, he discovered that he could own a premium diesel unit, manufactured locally, powder coated aluminum sound attenuated enclosure, with an engine that will out live him.


I remember reading in a post awhile back about the difference between the 1800 rpm generators and the 3600 rpm ones. What is the difference as far as efficiency and fuel usage, and cost?


----------



## Bob Badger

Low speed units cost more, but they last longer. Fuel usage is roughly the same.


----------



## bcramer

Bob Badger said:


> Mr Cramer, I do thank you for coming back, I think it takes some guts on you're end to post here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it is not that Genracs customer service is poor it is that the customers do not know how to deal with Genrac when they have a problem.
> 
> Interesting spin blaming the people that buy your product for not knowing how to get service when it breaks.
> 
> 
> 
> So basically if someone speaks honestly about their experiences with Generac and it is uncomplimentary they are 'unprofessional'.
> 
> Again blaming the customers or users of you're product.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets be honest, Genrac is gaining market share because they sell for less then most other units of the same size not because of some great technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Did someone ask for Genrac to add a gearbox between the motor and the generator? Gearboxes used under continuous high loading are prone to failure particularly sandwiched between a hot engine and generator. At least provide an oil cooler for the gearbox.
> 
> Gear boxes are a major cause of failures for wind turbines but in those there is no choice but to use a gear box.
> 
> Did another customer ask that 50% of the threaded holes that hold the covers on the electrical enclosure show up already striped out?
> 
> Who asked that the field wiring enter a compartment with large unguarded spinning parts?


I have no issues with posting here; I am actually getting a lot of support from the contractors. If you took the time to read earlier post you will see we talked about the changes that have been made at Generac by the direction of our CEO wanting to focus more on customer and technical support, that is also one of the reasons I am responding here. No one is blaming the customer, unfortunately there are times that the proper procedures are not followed or the qualification of the contractor doing the service is not met and it results in a bad eye on the manufacturer which adds fuel to the fire with misleading posts. 

Very simple, tell me what manufacture has more technology in their Home Standby generator then Generac for the same price.

Introduced in 1983, Generac gear driven generators have been successfully installed in thousands of locations. They have a very high reliability record and come with a 10year warranty. I wasn’t here in 1983 so I am not sure of the design origin but we still use it so that a statement of how successful it has been. I will be happy to send you a white paper so you will have the facts you are looking for, send me a private note with your contact information and it will be on the way.

Send me a serial number of the transfer switch you are having an issue with and that will allow me to look up the notes from when you called in with your concern. I will then follow up with you on it.

I have no idea what product you are talking about, that’s the kind of information that would be helpful.


----------



## bcramer

nrp3 said:


> I have been looking at 8kw +/- units and haven't found any brand with a 1800 rpm unit. Looking for a small unit for an elderly housing community room, a backup for lights and propane heater.


Generac Power Sytems has a SD010 (10kw) that may work for your needs but the cost per kW is higher then a LP or NG unit.


----------



## bcramer

kbsparky said:


> OK, it appears that there are actually 3 models available. I did not search the "industrial diesel" listings because I was looking at the residential/commercial listings --- restricting my results to LPG fueled models.
> 
> My bad for not considering diesel models in the search.
> 
> Now that I have something to compare to, what would the costs for a 15 kW single phase unit be compared to a similar model of another make? Both would have to be diesel fueled, with the required 1800 RPM engine ....


Sorry KB for not directing you to the industrial tab of the home page. If you go with the 15kw diesel you would have to order through the local industrial dealer and work with them on your install. I am not is sales so I cant provide pricing but I can tell you the diesel will have a higher cost then the NG or LP product.


----------



## tkb

bcramer, 

Any comment on the HTS two wire start question in post #41?


----------



## Fusion

kbsparky said:


> As I research this, it appears that diesel units have a much lower overall operating cost than the LP models.
> 
> I have a potential customer who has a large on-site storage tank of #2 fuel oil. Couple of thousand gallons of the stuff. Can that be used to directly fuel a diesel unit>?


Yes, you can use #2 diesel for any off-road application - farm equipment, generators, machinery, etc. 

However, if you are caught with #2 red diesel in a highway vehicle, you are in danger of receiving a $1000 fine from the IRS, which as the law is written goes to the driver, not the owner of the vehicle. According to the IRS, it's the driver's responsibility to check for dyed diesel in the tank. 

I know someone who drives a heating oil truck, and as he was at the terminal filling his truck with #2 the IRS was going around dipping the truck's fuel tanks to check for red diesel in them. They do check.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

bcramer said:


> Bob, please provide me the serial number of the unit you are referring to in this post, I would like to look into it for you. The decision for Generac Power Systems to have the “brains” in the generator and not the switch is marketing genius. This was established years ago and secured the sale of a switch with every generator sold. Having our private label agreements with new customers we have modified our controllers to work with their switches which in some cases are two wire start systems.


 

I absolutely am dumbfounded that you have the balls (or stupidity) (it takes both) to come on a public forum and BRAG about pinning your customers in between an unavoiadble rock and hard place. This completely ASTONISHED me. I TOO,,,,will be printing this for my customers to see. My partner is a Generac dealer. We have installed many. The last one we did was 100 kw for a residence that had 13 & 1/2 bathrooms. ,,,,,I can't believe we put that cheap junk on that house. I have a customer RIGHT NOW wanting a 50 kw for a house I just wired. I think you have just made my mind up for me. Thanks, honestly, for being arrogant enough (or dumb enough) to make that statement.


----------



## Southeast Power

RIVETER said:


> I remember reading in a post awhile back about the difference between the 1800 rpm generators and the 3600 rpm ones. What is the difference as far as efficiency and fuel usage, and cost?


I would thing running an engine at twice the speed would contribute to more wear per hour operated. The 3600 rpm unit would seem to require half of the poles of an 1800 rpm unit. It would not in any way benefit the HO to buy a 3600 rpm generator if the decision was only based on operating price.


----------



## Southeast Power

kbsparky said:


> As I research this, it appears that diesel units have a much lower overall operating cost than the LP models.
> 
> I have a potential customer who has a large on-site storage tank of #2 fuel oil. Couple of thousand gallons of the stuff. Can that be used to directly fuel a diesel unit>?
> 
> How about the maintenance costs, diesel vs LP?


Diesel engines are a whole different animal,
A gas unit would be more like a burro or donkey and a diesel would be more like an ox.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

mcclary's electrical said:


> I absolutely am dumbfounded that you have the balls (or stupidity) (it takes both) to come on a public forum and BRAG about pinning your customers in between an unavoiadble rock and hard place. This completely ASTONISHED me. I TOO,,,,will be printing this for my customers to see. My partner is a Generac dealer. We have installed many. The last one we did was 100 kw for a residence that had 13 & 1/2 bathrooms. ,,,,,I can't believe we put that cheap junk on that house. I have a customer RIGHT NOW wanting a 50 kw for a house I just wired. I think you have just made my mind up for me. Thanks, honestly, for being arrogant enough (or dumb enough) to make that statement.


 


I'd just like to add to this that bashing your customers on a public forum is also a dumb move


----------



## Chris Kennedy

frenchelectrican said:


> Where did I heard his name before .,,,,
> 
> It kinda ring the bell but not sure where.


Probably here.


----------



## bcramer

Chris Kennedy said:


> Probably here.


Thats not me so please dont send negative posts to him, I have no idea who that is. My name is spelled as it is on this post and I am from Wisconsin.


----------



## bcramer

tkb said:


> bcramer,
> 
> Any comment on the HTS two wire start question in post #41?


Sorry about that, I missed it. The short answer is yes there is a method that can be used to modify the HTS to work with a two wire start system. I think the original concern was arriving to a job with a temp unit and not understanding how to make it work or having the equipment on hand to modify it to work. I agree that that would pose a challenge and may cause some delays but there is a list of part that can be purchased to make this happen.


----------



## B4T

bcramer said:


> Sorry about that, I missed it. The short answer is yes there is a method that can be used to modify the HTS to work with a two wire start system. I think the original concern was arriving to a job with a temp unit and not understanding how to make it work or having the equipment on hand to modify it to work. I agree that that would pose a challenge and may cause some delays but there is a list of part that can be purchased to make this happen.


 
Bob.. it would be much better to explain how this can be done and what parts are needed to make this work.

I already know your answer will bring nothing but negative comments from the members here who have had this problem in the past.


----------



## bcramer

mcclary's electrical said:


> I absolutely am dumbfounded that you have the balls (or stupidity) (it takes both) to come on a public forum and BRAG about pinning your customers in between an unavoiadble rock and hard place. This completely ASTONISHED me. I TOO,,,,will be printing this for my customers to see. My partner is a Generac dealer. We have installed many. The last one we did was 100 kw for a residence that had 13 & 1/2 bathrooms. ,,,,,I can't believe we put that cheap junk on that house. I have a customer RIGHT NOW wanting a 50 kw for a house I just wired. I think you have just made my mind up for me. Thanks, honestly, for being arrogant enough (or dumb enough) to make that statement.


I am certainly not here to "brag" about anything, the sole purpose was to provide a channel for contractors that where looking for answers to some of their concerns. As a contractor myself I understand how some of the guys feel and am only looking to provide some extra support. 

Selecting a switch and generator for a customer that allows them to save thousands of doallrs is not pinning anyone, its providing a cost effective solution to a unplanned power outage.

I am not sure why you are telling me about the house with 13 1/2 bathrooms needing a 100kw, did we size this for you? We usually dont size generator for contractors only provide tools to assist with that task. If you are saying that the 100kw isnt big enough to support the house how does that become the issue of GPS?


----------



## bcramer

Black4Truck said:


> Bob.. it would be much better to explain how this can be done and what parts are needed to make this work.
> 
> I already know your answer will bring nothing but negative comments from the members here who have had this problem in the past.


I can answer questions to contractors that email me with a serial number of the unit they are having issues with or the switch in question. They would have to be a certified GPS dealer and have gone through the entire training program. The procedure is not one supported with a kit provided by Generac.

Please understand and respect the fact that a lot of you guys have paid good money to go through training to support this product and the proper steps need to followed. 

I can’t elaborate on the issue but rest assured yours and other voices are being heard and things are being done to answer those concerns.

Under the "Service and Support" tab on the GPS web site you can formally ask technical questions and they will be directed to the appropriate team for review.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

bcramer said:


> I am certainly not here to "brag" about anything, the sole purpose was to provide a channel for contractors that where looking for answers to some of their concerns. As a contractor myself I understand how some of the guys feel and am only looking to provide some extra support.
> 
> Selecting a switch and generator for a customer that allows them to save thousands of doallrs is not pinning anyone, its providing a cost effective solution to a unplanned power outage.
> 
> I am not sure why you are telling me about the house with 13 1/2 bathrooms needing a 100kw, did we size this for you? We usually dont size generator for contractors only provide tools to assist with that task. If you are saying that the 100kw isnt big enough to support the house how does that become the issue of GPS?


 

I never said it was not big enough. I simply said it was junk. The alternator quit charging after a whopping 40 hrs of run time. We have had numerous failed to start calls. And believe me, I know you're not here to brag.


PS,,,it's possible to save the customer thousands and still make interchangeabe parts. You're not being honest with yourself or us


----------



## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> PS,,,it's possible to save the customer thousands and still make interchangeabe parts. You're not being honest with yourself or us


I don't agree with this statement at all. :no:

Bob has nothing to gain by giving us false information. 

He is listening to what the members here are saying and as stated by him, passing that information along to the proper channels.

No product is perfect, just ask Toyota about their gas pedals or Lexus about GX 460 roll overs.


----------



## RIVETER

Black4Truck said:


> I don't agree with this statement at all. :no:
> 
> Bob has nothing to gain by giving us false information.
> 
> He is listening to what the members here are saying and as stated by him, passing that information along to the proper channels.
> 
> No product is perfect, just ask Toyota about their gas pedals or Lexus about GX 460 roll overs.


I am for listening to the guy. Anyone who is trying to screw you would not call you back.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Black4Truck said:


> I don't agree with this statement at all. :no:
> 
> Bob has nothing to gain by giving us false information.
> 
> He is listening to what the members here are saying and as stated by him, passing that information along to the proper channels.
> 
> No product is perfect, just ask Toyota about their gas pedals or Lexus about GX 460 roll overs.


 

Well then, if you don't agree with that statement, I would consider you easily fooled. I suppose you actually believe his "marketing genius" transfer switch was necassary in order to deliver the product at a reduced cost? BS!!, that was ABSOLUTELY not their intention, and I'm quite sure he proved that with his statement


----------



## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> Well then, if you don't agree with that statement, I would consider you easily fooled. I suppose you actually believe his "marketing genius" transfer switch was necassary in order to deliver the product at a reduced cost? BS!!, that was ABSOLUTELY not their intention, and I'm quite sure he proved that with his statement


I don't agree with the "marketing genius" statement at all, but that is his opinion.. nothing wrong with that.

It would be better if the parts were easily interchangeable, but right now that is not the case.

Maybe the next generation of ATS will be more compatible with other systems.

Generac is constantly upgrading their product, so anything is possible.

My point is that Bob is not trying to do a song n dance over issues raised on this thread.

You don't agree with it, that is the way it goes.. you had some bad luck with some units.

All the units I installed in the last (7) years have not given me any problems, so I like the product.


----------



## yucan2

Black4Truck said:


> I don't agree with the "marketing genius" statement at all, but that is his opinion.. nothing wrong with that.
> 
> It would be better if the parts were easily interchangeable, but right now that is not the case.
> 
> Maybe the next generation of ATS will be more compatible with other systems.
> 
> Generac is constantly upgrading their product, so anything is possible.
> 
> My point is that Bob is not trying to do a song n dance over issues raised on this thread.
> 
> You don't agree with it, that is the way it goes.. you had some bad luck with some units.
> 
> All the units I installed in the last (7) years have not given me any problems, so I like the product.


My experience has been similar to yours, though I have heard and seen some horror stories, they cross all boundaries. Generac, Kohler, Coleman, Onan and others. They each have their issues.

I applaud you for defending your experience with the product and Bob for continually returning to share his product related info. from the manufacturer.


----------



## LJSMITH1

mcclary's electrical said:


> I never said it was not big enough. I simply said it was junk. The alternator quit charging after a whopping 40 hrs of run time. We have had numerous failed to start calls. And believe me, I know you're not here to brag.
> 
> 
> PS,,,it's possible to save the customer thousands and still make interchangeabe parts. You're not being honest with yourself or us


I can give you numerous, personal examples of premature mechanical and/or electrical failures on other equipment...(i.e. Hydraulic pump failure at 75 hours on a John Deere backhoe, or a compressor failure at 25 days on a Trane condenser, or a catastrophic transmission failure at 45K miles on a 2006 Dodge Durango...the list goes on...). Does that mean that all of these products are crap? 

Like others have stated, all other brands of gensets have their own issues. Onan, Kohler, Honda, etc. Honda may have a great set, but they may not have the best features, or dealer network.

The important thing is that Generac seems to be making an effort to improve customer service and support. To me, customer service and support is the most important part of the after-sale. 

I don't think Generac "wants" or "intends" for their customers to have a bad experience. The critical thing is that they need to immediately and expertly address the issue, and do whatever it takes to make sure the customer is satisfied. The longer the issues drag on, the less likely the customer will have a positive experience to share.


----------



## Bob Badger

LJSMITH1 said:


> The important thing is that Generac seems to be making an effort to improve customer service and support. To me, customer service and support is the most important part of the after-sale.


Tell us what you are basing your opinion on?

Have you had to deal with their equipment or service?


It is very true that all equipment has failures, it is also true that even the equipment with the best reputation can fail.

But it is also a fact some manufactures strive for nothing more then a pretty package and good marketing. In my opinion and experience that is what we have here.

It seems the residential guys are satisfied but those of us that are more commercial oriented and have worked with many different brands have the same low opinion of Generac.


----------



## LJSMITH1

Bob Badger said:


> Tell us what you are basing your opinion on?
> 
> Have you had to deal with their equipment or service?
> 
> 
> It is very true that all equipment has failures, it is also true that even the equipment with the best reputation can fail.
> 
> But it is also a fact some manufactures strive for nothing more then a pretty package and good marketing. In my opinion and experience that is what we have here.
> 
> It seems the residential guys are satisfied but those of us that are more commercial oriented and have worked with many different brands have the same low opinion of Generac.


I have not had to deal with Generac equipment or service, although I have worked on my neighbors Generac LP unit. 

I am basing my comment on the fact that one of Generac's employees/reps is actually on here soliciting opinions and looking to resolve issues. Thats a first step. (It certainly is also one of my reasons for being here and on other similar forums.) If it works, then Generac customers may be much happier in the future.

If Generac is serious about improving their product, service and support, they will evaluate and incorporate customer's suggestions into their 'reinvention'. Horrible customer service & support kills more good companies faster than competition. No amount of marketing 'genius' will change that.

BTW...I am not defending or recommending Generac product....just pointing out the obvious reality that no manufacturer has a perfect record...including my company..:thumbsup:


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> But it is also a fact some manufactures strive for nothing more then a pretty package and good marketing. In my opinion and experience that is what we have here.


So all Bob is trying to do is put a happy face on a product that is riddled with problems? :blink:

Just the fact that a company rep. comes here to listen to complaints about their product tells me they are serious about making changes where they are needed.

Generac could of just avoided the negative comments and laughed all the way to the bank.

Changes take time :thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> So all Bob is trying to do is put a happy face on a product that is riddled with problems? :blink:


Riddled with problems is you're spin.

I am not the only one that has an issue with the product, if you have had good luck and good service by all means keep on going.


----------



## Roger123

LJSMITH1 said:


> Horrible customer service & support kills more good companies faster than competition.


 
Now that is something I can agree with! So:

I had one concern and some questions on two non-standard installs on the Generac Generators. So I PMed Bob Cramer here on this site and asked if he would call me. He promptly call today and took his time to answer all my questions. He was knowledgeable and professional. That is very important to me! He even gave me his call back number for future reference. Good job Bob, A+ service!


----------



## tkb

bcramer said:


> Sorry about that, I missed it. The short answer is yes there is a method that can be used to modify the HTS to work with a two wire start system. I think the original concern was arriving to a job with a temp unit and not understanding how to make it work or having the equipment on hand to modify it to work. I agree that that would pose a challenge and may cause some delays but there is a list of part that can be purchased to make this happen.


I work with the the New England Generac dealer and trainging center and no one here has heard of this option.

Can you PM me with you email address so we can discuss this?

This is something that I have been trying to resolve for the last 2 years with email back and forth to Generac with the answer, we know about it and we are working on it.


----------



## kbsparky

I believe that the original issue was not whether the Generac would start with a 2-wire system, but the opposite: 

How can one install a temp gen set unit during major repairs when the ATS "guts" are incorporated into the unit?

You need the ATS equipment to be outside, and separate from the gen set unit, otherwise you are screwed when attempting to utilize another unit when the original unit has all the components of the ATS!

A 2-wire system assumes that the ATS is separately mounted and controlled.


----------



## tkb

kbsparky said:


> I believe that the original issue was not whether the Generac would start with a 2-wire system, but the opposite:
> 
> How can one install a temp gen set unit during major repairs when the ATS "guts" are incorporated into the unit?
> 
> You need the ATS equipment to be outside, and separate from the gen set unit, otherwise you are screwed when attempting to utilize another unit when the original unit has all the components of the ATS!
> 
> A 2-wire system assumes that the ATS is separately mounted and controlled.


I think there are two ATS issues here.

One is the residential generator line that use an ATS that must be matched to the generator because the brains of the ATS is incorperated in the generator.

The second is on the commercial and industrial generators.
The generator will accept either a two wire start command or the command from the data connection from an HTS Generac ATS.
These generators usually have an H control panel.
The HTS only will communicate with the H panel through the data connection so the two wire start problem is not with the generator it is with the ATS.
If you want you can have either a Generac GTS ATS or any other brand ATS to start any commercial or industrial Generac generator.

To fix the problem Generac needs to modify the HTS transfer switch to output both the data connection and the two wire start.


----------



## Bob Badger

TKB, will I see you on the 12th in RI for the CT 7 hour update?


----------



## tkb

Bob,
I thought that was in September.
When are you going?

I just went to their web site, The CT class is Sept 11th.

Do you have a different place?


----------



## frenchelectrican

tkb said:


> I think there are two ATS issues here.
> 
> One is the residential generator line that use an ATS that must be matched to the generator because the brains of the ATS is incorperated in the generator.
> 
> The second is on the commercial and industrial generators.
> The generator will accept either a two wire start command or the command from the data connection from an HTS Generac ATS.
> These generators usually have an H control panel.
> The HTS only will communicate with the H panel through the data connection so the two wire start problem is not with the generator it is with the ATS.
> If you want you can have either a Generac GTS ATS or any other brand ATS to start any commercial or industrial Generac generator.
> 
> To fix the problem Generac needs to modify the HTS transfer switch to output both the data connection and the two wire start.


TKB.,

Thanks for posting the info and this the way we are looking for the way to change the connetion on transfer switch.

The commercal side it is not too bad I can deal with it however resdentail side that is the quirk but they should have a factory option for two wire control so I can able use the standard ATS much quicker without issue espcally that is true when the oringal generator is down for repairs.

Merci,Marc


----------



## Grounded

What we have here is a failure to communicate. A good Electrician would be able to Improvise and make the temporary Genset work. Most Residential Electrician (wiremen) don’t have the Electrical knowledge to perform that kind of work, if it’s not plug and play or if it has more than 2 wires involved. Why do contractors use 50 cent receptacles when a good one would cost 4+ dollars?


----------



## B4T

Grounded said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate. A good Electrician would be able to Improvise and make the temporary Genset work. Most Residential Electrician (wiremen) don’t have the Electrical knowledge to perform that kind of work, if it’s not plug and play or if it has more than 2 wires involved. Why do contractors use 50 cent receptacles when a good one would cost 4+ dollars?


Why must you be a Troll on a Friday night? :blink:


----------



## Bkessler

I hooked up one a year or two ago, when I first looked at it I thought the piece of plastic it was sitting on was for shipping.....then quickly realized the whole unit sits on a piece of cheap plastic. And for some reason the whole thing does just seem cheap. That's my two cents. I do know the one I installed was for a gated community in Newport Beach and they were never able to get a fuel line approved by the city. So it just sit's there.


----------



## Bob Badger

Grounded said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate. A good Electrician would be able to Improvise and make the temporary Genset work.


You do not have the least bit of a clue what you are talking about.:no:


----------



## Grounded

Bob Badger said:


> You do not have the least bit of a clue what you are talking about.:no:


yep sure do. Residential wiring is so easy a caveman can do it altho 3 way switches can be a challenge for some. any other comments would be  :whistling2: I will say :no: more


----------



## B4T

Grounded said:


> yep sure do. Residential wiring is so easy a caveman can do it altho 3 way switches can be a challenge for some. any other comments would be  :whistling2: I will say :no: more


Since your so smart, ever hear the term "registered member" :thumbup:


----------



## BeanAnimal

bcramer said:


> The calls you received more then likely came from our dealer acquisition group,


 Bob, at least 3 times in the past 7 years we have entertained the same type of calls and considered becoming a dealer. The probolem is that HOME DEPOT and a dozen or more online vendors sell the units for just about what the small dealer's wholesale cost is! You do nothing to protect your dealers margins.

Your words posted in the initial post in this thread gave the impression that you would answer questions and listen to the opinions of the many professionals here. Instead you dove right into sales pitch mode, called your competitors products inferior and boldy defended or attempted to explain away every complaint leveled towards the product or company. From my perspective, you have not done Generac any favors and have instead reinforced the frustrations many of us have with the company and product.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

BeanAnimal said:


> Bob, at least 3 times in the past 7 years we have entertained the same type of calls and considered becoming a dealer. The probolem is that HOME DEPOT and a dozen or more online vendors sell the units for just about what the small dealer's wholesale cost is! You do nothing to protect your dealers margins.[/font]
> 
> Your words posted in the initial post in this thread gave the impression that you would answer questions and listen to the opinions of the many professionals here. Instead you dove right into sales pitch mode, called your competitors products inferior and boldy defended or attempted to explain away every complaint leveled towards the product or company. From my perspective, you have not done Generac any favors and have instead reinforced the frustrations many of us have with the company and product.


 


I agree wholeheartedly 100% and I thikn that is the reason he quit responding. We are a Generac dealer, and HO's can go to Blowe's and buy a generator for the same price I get it for. What's up with that? IMO< Generac are on their way down, they have been shown the door, and are now walking towards it to leave


----------



## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree wholeheartedly 100% and I thikn that is the reason he quit responding. We are a Generac dealer, and HO's can go to Blowe's and buy a generator for the same price I get it for. What's up with that? IMO< Generac are on their way down, they have been shown the door, and are now walking towards it to leave


 
I agree 100%

I just purchased (2) 20kw. units.. my cost with shipping and handling $4302.00 each.

If I purchased from Norwall, the unit would cost me $4319.00 with shipping and lift gate.

That is a saving for me of $8.50 for being a GENERAC dealer 

So it would seem Norwall either is working for free or GENERAC is cutting them a cheaper price.

So why can't the rest of us get the same deal?? :blink:


----------



## Bob Badger

The real problem with Genrac is they are too busy trying to beat the going rate that they do not seem to care about any other issues.


----------



## BeanAnimal

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree wholeheartedly 100% and I thikn that is the reason he quit responding. We are a Generac dealer, and HO's can go to Blowe's and buy a generator for the same price I get it for. What's up with that? IMO< Generac are on their way down, they have been shown the door, and are now walking towards it to leave


They do a big song and dance about customer support, partner training and their authorized dealer program. The reality is that they could care less who sells and installs their products, a sale is a sale. They drive market share by touting their market share. I am sure they strive to build a quality product, but in the end quality gives way to bottom line.

One poster in this thread kept coming to Bob's defense as if Bob was here with an olive branch and a notepad. Bob's presence here had nothing to do with listening and his responses to complaints prove that. He was here because this site is one of the first that comes up in google when Generac is searched for in the context of Kohler, Onan or complaints. He came here to get his bullet points where they would be found easily by those searching for Generac vs other systems and attempt to do some damage control. Bob's job is to spin any negative into a postive and at the same time make sure the bullet points get posted over and over again:

What were those bullet points?

Market share
Partners (Siemens, Briggs, Eaton, Cat, etc.)
Listed specs (distortion, output, etc.)
Web URL with links to specific pages
New support structure for dealers and end users
Innovative technology (??) etc.
He jumped right into sales mode, going as far as blaming customers and dealers, and infering that those who complain are cluess or unprofessional. Each complaint or question was answered with boilerplate spin.

No doubt he has tried to help those who have contacted him and is not likely a bad guy. The problem is that he SHOULD NOT have to step in and make personal efforts to resolve issues that support should have already handled. His need to help proves the point that dealers and customers were not getting the needed support from the support channel.

The Generac program relies on maintenance plans to keep the generators running over the long haul. They assume that is where the dealer will make their money and that is where Generac makes their money as well. 

I don't want a product that needs to have a maintenance plan to keep it running after the warranty period, and most folks feel the same. They don't mind paying somebody a few dollars to test and replace the battery and change the oil, but how much can you honestly charge a customer to change the battery and replace the oil once a year? I don't know many customers that are going to sign on to a $500 a year (2 visit) maintenance plan on a $3,000 genset if it does not include 100% parts and labor. Even then, they are going to wait until the warranty expires. If the unit was higher quality, the point would be moot. Change the oil every year, replace the battery every 36 months and keep the money in your pocket. 

In the near future I will be adding a 12kW unit to my home. I was still on the fence with regard to Generac, but this thread has helped to make up my mind. The Kohler duel fuel appears to be better bang for the buck.


----------



## B4T

BeanAnimal said:


> They do a big song and dance about customer support, partner training and their authorized dealer program. The reality is that they could care less who sells and installs their products, a sale is a sale. They drive market share by touting their market share. I am sure they strive to build a quality product, but in the end quality gives way to bottom line.
> 
> *One poster* in this thread kept coming to Bob's defense as if Bob was here with an olive branch and a notepad. Bob's presence here had nothing to do with listening and his responses to complaints prove that. He was here because this site is one of the first that comes up in google when Generac is searched for in the context of Kohler, Onan or complaints. He came here to get his bullet points where they would be found easily by those searching for Generac vs other systems and attempt to do some damage control. Bob's job is to spin any negative into a postive


I still say Bob was not here just blowing smoke and I have too much invested in the GENERAC brand to think otherwise.


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> I still say Bob was not here just blowing smoke


And I say you must have been reading another thread. 




> and I have too much invested in the GENERAC brand to think otherwise.


Great investment plan, ignore the obvious and throw more money into the fire.:laughing:

Forget everything said about Generac in this thread and focus on just one thing .... $8.50 ... that should tell you loud and clear how much they give a s hit about their dealers.


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> And I say you must have been reading another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great investment plan, ignore the obvious and throw more money into the fire.:laughing:
> 
> Forget everything said about Generac in this thread and focus on just one thing .... $8.50 ... that should tell you loud and clear how much they give a s hit about their dealers.


Bob.. you have all very good points and I may seem dumb, close minded, blinded by corporate spin, thick headed, and fail to see the obvious.. did I missing anything?? :laughing:

I am staying with this ship till the RATS jump overboard


----------



## bcramer

BeanAnimal said:


> Bob, at least 3 times in the past 7 years we have entertained the same type of calls and considered becoming a dealer. The probolem is that HOME DEPOT and a dozen or more online vendors sell the units for just about what the small dealer's wholesale cost is! You do nothing to protect your dealers margins.[/font]
> 
> Your words posted in the initial post in this thread gave the impression that you would answer questions and listen to the opinions of the many professionals here. Instead you dove right into sales pitch mode, called your competitors products inferior and boldy defended or attempted to explain away every complaint leveled towards the product or company. From my perspective, you have not done Generac any favors and have instead reinforced the frustrations many of us have with the company and product.


"BeanAnimal" I have no control how the product is priced or what channels the company decides to sell through. I came on to try and provide support on technical questions or concerns and I think that the few guys that requested support from me got that and their issues have been answered.


----------



## B4T

bcramer said:


> "BeanAnimal" I have no control how the product is priced or what channels the company decides to sell through. I came on to try and provide support on technical questions or concerns and I think that the few guys that requested support from me got that and their issues have been answered.


Bob.. it would be great if you could forward this thread to someone who is in marketing.

As you see, I have a hard time explaining the loyalty GENERAC has for its dealers and that whopping $8.50 I saved. 

Answering technical questions is a wonderful thing, but marketing plays just as big a roll... IMO.


----------



## BeanAnimal

Black4Truck said:


> I still say Bob was not here just blowing smoke and I have too much invested in the GENERAC brand to think otherwise.


We don't want truth to conflict with our investments... but it often does?

When people come to help, they don't answer complaints the way he did. The following 1 act play is escatly what has transpired here.

*Manufacturer:* "I am posting here to open a dialog in order to improve our products and relationships with our dealers and customers. Let me know if I can help, I am all ears!"

*Customer:* "The design of your handle makes my wrists hurt. I looked into it and found that almost all of your users have the same complaint. Sadly, your widget does not accept industry standard handles and support has been no help."

*Manufacturer:* "You are not holding the handle correctly! Your dealer should have shown you the proper technique."

*Dealer:* "You are not listening, the customer says the widget handle makes his wrists hurt. All of my customers say the same thing! We train exactly according to your guidlines. Can you tell us what you are going to do to fix the problem?"

*Manufacturer:* "We own 70% of the widget market share! and other companies buy and re-brand our widgets too! Our competitor does not even list the color of their handles, but we do! If you go to our website you can find the specs and photos."

*Dealer*: "We don't care about the specs, the handles need a redesign. The widget will not accept industry standard handles that are designed with better ergonomics."

*Manufacturer:* "Our proprietary handle design ensures your customer MUST deal with you, that is a good thing! If you go to the website you can print a brochure for them.

*Dealer:* "I don't want a brochure, I just want to make my unhappy customer a happy customer! They have spent countless hours on the phone with me and with your support team. They are not happy and still waiting for an answer. None of my customers are happy with the product!"

*Manufacturer:* "Give me your customers name and contact information. We can arrange for carpel tunnel surgery to help fix the wrist pain."

*Dealer:* "You don't get it, the handles are not designed properly, no matter how many you sell. What can you do to fix the problem?"

*Manufacturer:* "The unprofessional comments are not helping. I cam here to help people and you guys keep changing the subject and being rude! 

Remember, we have 70% market share and many other companies rebrand our product. We are better than the the competition and our handles come in a rainbow of colors. Any more questions?"


----------



## Bob Badger

BRAVO! BeanAnimal

Very well put. :thumbsup:


Describes this thread exactly.


----------



## bcramer

Black4Truck said:


> Bob.. it would be great if you could forward this thread to someone who is in marketing.
> 
> As you see, I have a hard time explaining the loyalty GENERAC has for its dealers and that whopping $8.50 I saved.
> 
> Answering technical questions is a wonderful thing, but marketing plays just as big a roll... IMO.


Send me your contact info in a PM and I will forward it to the appropriate person to have them contact you and talk about your concern. If you have anything technical please feel free to contact me directly.


----------



## BeanAnimal

bcramer said:


> "BeanAnimal" I have no control how the product is priced or what channels the company decides to sell through. I came on to try and provide support on technical questions or concerns and I think that the few guys that requested support from me got that and their issues have been answered.


Bob that is part of the problem. There should be no need for you to be here on a public forum doing technical support for dealers and professionals. If you have to seek out public forums to put out fires, then something is wrong from the top down. That also explains why there is such a HUGE pricing problem, it comes from the top down. Please don't get me wrong: This is not a personal attack. You certainly are doing what is expected by helping those who have specific customer problems, it is just a shame that this had to be the route for them to finally get support.

I don't even know that the products are better or worse than the competition. I do know that I read a lot of negative comments and none of my interactions with Generac regarding the dealer program have made me feel any better about the company or the product. 

My only first hand experience with your product was in a situation where it (an air cooled NG unit) failed a server room in a storm. I can't blame the product because it may have been a lightining strike, nobody is sure. All they know is that the board was damaged and the unit did not provide backup power when it was needed. Again, it may have been no fault of the product.


----------



## bcramer

BeanAnimal said:


> Bob that is part of the problem. There should be no need for you to be here on a public forum doing technical support for dealers and professionals. If you have to seek out public forums to put out fires, then something is wrong from the top down. That also explains why there is such a HUGE pricing problem, it comes from the top down.
> 
> I don't even know that the products are better or worse than the competition. I do know that I read a lot of negative comments and none of my interactions with Generac regarding the dealer program have made me feel any better about the company or the product.
> 
> My only first hand experience with your product was in a situation where it (an air cooled NG unit) failed a server room in a storm. I can't blame the product because it may have been a lightining strike, nobody is sure. All they know is that the board was damaged and the unit did not provide backup power when it was needed. Again, it may have been no fault of the product.


I did not come to this site looking to put out fires, I was sent emails from members of this site to come here and respond to concerns. I also reached out to that person making negative statements here in a private message before posting anything, he chose to post my private comments to him in the very first post. What I haven't done is post his private response stating he only wanted to know what customers we manufacturer for, he had no issue that he made me aware of.

The positive side of this thread is that several guys got help or the answers they were looking for. 

BCramer is also my true name, I am not hiding behind a curtain. I have met a lot of these guys as I traveled across the country and continue to look forward to working with them. Like I said earlier I have no control on pricing or distribution but is a dealer contacts me with a concern I will forward it.


----------



## BeanAnimal

bcramer said:


> I did not come to this site looking to put out fires, I was sent emails from members of this site to come here and respond to concerns. I also reached out to that person making negative statements here in a private message before posting anything, he chose to post my private comments to him in the very first post. What I haven't done is post his private response stating he only wanted to know what customers we manufacturer for, he had no issue that he made me aware of.
> 
> The positive side of this thread is that several guys got help or the answers they were looking for.
> 
> BCramer is also my true name, I am not hiding behind a curtain. I have met a lot of these guys as I traveled across the country and continue to look forward to working with them. Like I said earlier I have no control on pricing or distribution but is a dealer contacts me with a concern I will forward it.


Bob, 

I don't doubt your honesty our your name and in fact none of this is personal. You actually appear to be a pretty nice and informed guy.

With regard to the OP: I think he clearly stated why that was his only question: He wanted to know what other brands used your internals so that he could outright avoid them based on his already formed opinion of the product.

Other than offering to step in to support where the support channel has failed, your posts have been boilerplate sales pitches and to date you do not appear to understand why that rubs people the wrong way. It may not even be the information that has been delivered, but more the context it delivered with.

Nobody expects you to trash your own product but at the same time, it was unexpected to be (in essence) told that the the product is best in class and the only problems are the customers and dealers not understanding it or the support process. 

That almost absurd dialog I posted above is almost exactly what has transpired in this thread.


----------



## B4T

BeanAnimal said:


> Bob that is part of the problem. There should be no need for you to be here on a public forum doing technical support for dealers and professionals. If you have to seek out public forums to put out fires, then something is wrong from the top down. That also explains why there is such a HUGE pricing problem, it comes from the top down. Please don't get me wrong: This is not a personal attack. You certainly are doing what is expected by helping those who have specific customer problems, it is just a shame that this had to be the route for them to finally get support.


 
Why is it a bad thing for a company rep to come on a public forum to answer questions and offer technical help? :blink:

That shows a willingness to listen at the minimum and hopefully make changes down the line.

It is fine to rip a company apart, but at least be fair and give them credit for making an attempt to open a dialog about their product.


----------



## BeanAnimal

Black4Truck said:


> Why is it a bad thing for a company rep to come on a public forum to answer questions and offer technical help? :blink:
> 
> That shows a willingness to listen at the minimum and hopefully make changes down the line.
> 
> It is fine to rip a company apart, but at least be fair and give them credit for making an attempt to open a dialog about their product.


You are straddling that fence awful hard, don't hurt yourself!

The problem is that most of us don't see the _dialog_. Bob has (kindly) offered to help when there is a specific concern about a customer not being supported but has not addressed the more general concerns that are the very reason that these threads and opinions can be found all over the internet. 

Think about it: People are HERE who were unable to get proper support and only lucked into noe becuase Bob found a thread beating up the company he works for and attempted to contact one of the stick holders in private. That is not "support" the way it is meant to be, it is support by happen stance because a company representative is out looking for negative comments in hopes of re-educating people about the product. 

I have absolutely no problem with a company representative frequenting any forum in an effort to support customers. There is a vast difference between opening a dialog to fix issues and entering a thread to change opinions on the assumption that the negative reputation is based merely on misinformation.

I would imagine that Bob is reporting back to the folks who drive decisions, but at the same time the complaints are nothing new, so are they listening? How many dealers do you think have complained about the price model and lack of price protection? They don't care my friend, a sale is a sale. 

Like I said, I don't know how the residential units actually stack up long term against those from other vendors like Kohler and Onan. There is certainly a price difference and more often than not, you get what you pay for. The proproetary transfer switch is enough to make me walk away.


----------



## B4T

BeanAnimal said:


> You are straddling that fence awful hard, don't hurt yourself!


 
I have not had any problems with either GENERAC products or their tech support.

I don't like the idea of saving $8.50 over Joe Homeowner who can buy a unit online from these guys at my cost http://www.norwall.com/?SRC=goog&CA...tors-INSTOCK&gclid=CPmT1MX2qaMCFYxU2godGnlo6A

I am not "straddling" the fence as you put it :no:

I am telling you my history with the product and the company, as I see it.

Seems you are very motivated in attacking GENERAC and so far you have not mentioned about installing any of their products. 

Just what are you basing all of your information on??


----------



## BeanAnimal

Black4Truck said:


> I have not had any problems with either GENERAC products or their tech support...
> 
> ...I am telling you my history with the product and the company, as I see it.


Your opinion of the product and experience are valued, but have no relevance to the points being made here. You are using YOUR experience and applying your bias to the responses made by Bob. You are missing the point completely  



> I don't like the idea of saving $8.50 over Joe Homeowner who can buy a unit online from these guys at my cost...


 Online retailers like that work off of volume. Generac will do NOTHING to stop the practice because they sell more gensets in a week than you will in a year or more. Their price is likely a little bit better than yours, but they could care less. If they make $10 per sale, that is $10 profit. Their only overhead is answering the phone and paying for hosting. The generators are drop shipped, so they don't have to touch anything. They can sell a $30,000 generator for $30,100 and laugh the whole way to the bank, as does Generac for closing yet one more sale.



> Seems you are very motivated in attacking GENERAC and so far you have not mentioned about installing any of their products. Just what are you basing all of your information on??


 Kindly sir, It would help if you read what I posted. It appears that throughout this thread you have had trouble with the context of what others have posted.

So what am I basing my inforamtion and opinion on?


I clearly stated that I have little first-hand experience with Generac products and have based my opinion off of what I have read on the internet and gleaned from several reputable businesses that I work with. I have clearly sated that I do not know if there are in fact quality issues but there appear to be many reports indicating so.
I have clearly stated that I have worked with Generac to get setup as a dealer on at least 3 occasion but have declined the partnership due to the lack of wholesale pricing and protection of that pricing. That is not an attack, that is the simple truth. I refuse to work with companies that undercut their own dealers by not controlling their own supply chain while at the same time pretending to be "dealer" centric.
I kindly pointed out that while Bob is attempting to help those who have specific issues, those issues all appear to have one thing in common. That "thing" is that in each case, Generac support was not able to help and left the customer or dealer hanging. If they never happened upon this thread they would still be waiting for help.
I learned in this thread that Generac uses a proprietary transfer switch. I don't like that idea at all. That point alone is enough for me to choose another brand for myself and/or my customers.
Lastly, I have pointed out that the majority of Bob's posts have been sales oriented and authored in such a way as to infer that Generac products and support are flawless. I have no problem with that, other than the context is contrary to what I read in the first post of this thread and contrary to the opinions of a large number of the poeple who own or sell Generac products. I had hoped to glean answers from this thread and isntead got nothing more than the same bullet points that can be found on the Generac website.
No hard feelings my friend... but I don't think there is much more that can be added.


----------



## Ani Natekar

wow this is quite an interesting thread. I think it's great for a veteran from a genset manufacturer to reach out to a public forum. I also found the 1 act play between a manufacturer and dealer to be quite hilarious.
I'm here as an individual and mere spectator looking at some true voice of the customer.
P.S. sorry to hear about a failing cummins


----------



## Bob Badger

From another forum I frequent




sparky 134 said:


> Recently installed a Generac unit for a family member. Fired up the generator, metered the phases at the transfer switch from the generator and had 120v on each phase to neutral. BUT, when the transfer switch clunked over I suddenly had 40volts on one phase and 240volt on the other !!
> 
> Shut off the generator and go in the house to the lovely smell of burnt electronics. Two surge strips had given their life. I spent about an hour double checking my connections and everything I installed from the transfer switch out to the factory wired junction box was good so I called it a night.
> 
> Returned the next morning and called Generac tech support but since I'm not a dealer anymore they were very limited as to advice. The only thing the tech would say is, "You have an open neutral."
> 
> I knew my wiring was good between the transfer switch, panel and factory wired junction box so I opened the cover on the control compartment in the generator and found the factory had landed the neutral wire that runs between the generator and the junction box on the GROUND post instead of the NEUTRAL post. Called tech support back, told them when I found and asked if the neutral was supposed to be on the GROUND post or NEUTRAL post (I already knew the answer).
> 
> Since I'm not a dealer tech support said they would not pay me to fix the FACTORY error and that I would have to call a Generac dealer to make the repair or do it myself for free. Of course, my only concern was to get my customer up and running so I switched the wire after the customer took several pictures of the factory wiring error.
> 
> That was over a month ago and Generac is still refusing to pay for the damaged equipment. I was told, "In the back of the generator manual it clearly states Generac is not responsible for damage caused by the generator."
> 
> Way to stand behind your product. Generac's first response was they are not responsible for field wiring errors. After clarifying the fact the error was a factory mistake they still hold they are not responsible.


Why am I not surprised?


----------



## RIVETER

I thought they tested each and every generator before it leaves the factory. I wonder if this was a used one that may have been tampered with.


----------



## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> I thought they tested each and every generator before it leaves the factory. I wonder if this was a used one that may have been tampered with.



Yeah I am sure it was used and the poster had just left that part out. 

Generac is full of crap.


----------



## RIVETER

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah I am sure it was used and the poster had just left that part out.
> 
> Generac is full of crap.


He didn't say it was shrink-wrapped.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

RIVETER said:


> He didn't say it was shrink-wrapped.


 
You're weird:laughing:

It was new,,,,,,,,,,just junk,,,that's all


----------



## Shockdoc

I'm wiring up a 20 kw unit Wensday my customer purchased online. I recommended the unit. I hope this product does not make me look bad. This unit's sole function is to keep a business open and it's basement level office from flooding. Hurricane earl might be passing over us on Friday.


----------



## Shockdoc

Does anybody know the control circuit voltage that opens and closes the transfer contactor?


----------



## Greg

The power for the contactor itself is line voltage after it passes through a full wave bridge rectifier, basically DC voltage. What do you exactly need? How many control wires are needed? Where they are landed in the gen and transfer switch? What type of transfer switch, HTS or RTS? PM sent


----------



## nrp3

Anyone got any idea what causes overspeed warnings on an 8kw?


----------



## Mr. Sparkle

nrp3 said:


> Anyone got any idea what causes overspeed warnings on an 8kw?


Bad Flux Capacitor.






















Sorry poor attempt at humor.......:jester:


----------



## RIVETER

nrp3 said:


> Anyone got any idea what causes overspeed warnings on an 8kw?


Going to fast???


----------



## nrp3

I don't have a repair manual, so I don't have the ability to troubleshoot. The warranty guys will be out on the 13th, but I would like to have an idea what the problem is. Guessing some sort of adjustment. Anyone have the book handy?


----------



## RIVETER

nrp3 said:


> I don't have a repair manual, so I don't have the ability to troubleshoot. The warranty guys will be out on the 13th, but I would like to have an idea what the problem is. Guessing some sort of adjustment. Anyone have the book handy?


I am not a generator guy but I bought two 8500s after hurricane Ike blew through Kentucky. They are set up for a certain rpm and if for some reason they exceed that by too much, over voltages will occur. Check that adjustment.


----------



## frenchelectrican

With any generators you should able check the engine speed and the throttle linkage to make sure they are not bind up unless you have run by wire thottle set up that can get little tricky to deal.

For any gaz units check the butterfly to make sure they are clean and not binding up escpally if very humid days or cool humid days the carubater will ice up { I have see it quite few time }

so check it out and also check for any loose connections.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## Shockdoc

Installed a 20 kw generac today, installation and start up went smooth. Nice unit. Thanks Greg!


----------



## Greg

Shockdoc said:


> Installed a 20 kw generac today, installation and start up went smooth. Nice unit. Thanks Greg!


Your Quite Welcome


----------



## r_merc

*seems to me that this thread............*

seems to me that this thread has two minds about it. 

First I am a Generac Dealer of residential products. In other words all their air cooled products 20K or less. In this segment of the market most of the manufacturers use a hybrid system where the brains are not located in the ATS. This setup not unique to GENERAC. This is changing again with the increased use of load shedding/management in the residential ATS. Being a dealer and having been to their school I have not had any support problems. Do I think they make a perfect product....No. Do I think they have improved their product in recent years.....Yes.
Seems like the old Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge argument. All i have to say to that is depends on what time frame and model.


----------



## Bryan

*Generac*

Seems to me that there is alot of misunderstanding about how the Generac systems are designed to operate. Most local distributors offer formal training as well as technical support.


----------



## B4T

Bryan said:


> Seems to me that there is alot of misunderstanding about how the Generac systems are designed to operate. Most local distributors offer formal training as well as technical support.


That is news to me..:blink:

Only dealers can sign up for "formal training" and I don't know any dealers who offer technical support... they will gladly do service calls for a fee.


----------



## Bryan

Formal training for the residential air cooled products does not require you to be dealer. Commercial and industrial products do, however. Factory tech support is a great benefit to those companies that are dealers. All local distributors are supposed to offer training for commercial and air cooled. This does not mean free. 

I personally spend a fair amout of my work week providing telephone tech support for all Generac products to contractors, owners, and techs who work for the competion from all around the country for free. I also train not only my company's techs, but techs from our local dealers as well.

I have worked for Generac's oldest industrial distributor for the last 14 years and am the lead field service tech and factory authorized technical trainer. Maybe, I can help you as well.


----------



## Shockdoc

I'm going to service a 20kw I installed, what visc oil? filters are on order. what else need to be done?


----------



## Bryan

Air cooled, gas or diesel?


----------



## Shockdoc

Bryan said:


> Air cooled, gas or diesel?


Air cooled, nat gas.


----------



## Bryan

SAE 30 above 32 deg. F.
10W-30 between 40 and -10 deg. F
Synthetic 5W-30 10 deg. and below


----------



## PowerFactor

Bryan

Are you a master tech? Gemini / parallel etc.


----------



## Bryan

Yes. Master Tech and trainer.


----------



## Frasbee

Interesting.

My employer was trained to install those things.


----------



## B4T

Bryan said:


> SAE 30 above 32 deg. F.
> 10W-30 between 40 and -10 deg. F
> Synthetic 5W-30 10 deg. and below


I believe it was 1.7 quarts of oil...


----------



## MDShunk

Bryan said:


> SAE 30 above 32 deg. F.
> 10W-30 between 40 and -10 deg. F
> Synthetic 5W-30 10 deg. and below


Seems like a lot of work, changing the oil every time the thermometer changes and all. :laughing:


----------



## Bryan

This is the oil to use for the expected temperature range where the unit is installed. Change oil after first 8 hrs. of operation and then every 200 hrs. or 2 years whichever occurs first. From Generac owners manual.


----------



## BBQ

Genercrap strikes again.

Brand new large unit, commissioned very recently.

Storm comes, generator runs and then shorts internally and fails. Likely less than 15 hours on it.

Very impressive ..............


----------



## piperunner

Well your product is ok in my book fact is most portable generators by example a Honda your instructions state to do the same with the oil .

Honda you change the oil first 8 and pretty much if it runs 24 /7 all portables gensets you change the oil .

If you dont they will lock up .


----------



## kevmanTA

I haven't had a problem with Generacs, regular maintenance is key..
I did have one issue with the gas hookup, the gas company had to adjust the meter, whenever the furnace was running, it was leaning out the feed to the genny, causing an over crank.

Other than that, they seem fine.. What do you want for $3800?


----------



## BBQ

kevmanTA said:


> I haven't had a problem with Generacs, regular maintenance is key..


Regular maintenance?

Both big issues I had where on brand new units.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> Genercrap strikes again.
> 
> Brand new large unit, commissioned very recently.
> 
> Storm comes, generator runs and then shorts internally and fails. Likely less than 15 hours on it.
> 
> Very impressive ..............


Same deal for us, we are towing a 17 kw right now to replace one we installed about 8 years ago. It shut down on low oil pressure, we go fix the oil leak yesterday, crank it up,.and sparks fly off the flywheel. The starter is staying engaged. The flywheel, starter, and control board must be replaced, all to just have an unreliable Genny, so bottom line we're replacing it with a new one. The owner is not happy with genecrap right now...


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Here's the pos


----------



## Widestance_Politics

Mr Cramer I have discovered a quick fix to the issue of swapping a bad generator for a rental in-field......

Just include a back-up generator when selling the original.....
You could put some kind of "Two for One" spin on it.....

I am available for your marketing team if needed....


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Sadly, this is the only machine I could get my hands on this morning.


----------



## B4T

At least that one won't rust out like the original.. :thumbsup:

The neutral strip sucks with such tiny lugs.. :no:

Also connecting to the main breaker is a piss poor design..


----------



## Mr Rewire

B4T said:


> At least that one won't rust out like the original.. :thumbsup:
> 
> The neutral strip sucks with such tiny lugs.. :no:
> 
> Also connecting to the main breaker is a piss poor design..


 I thought you were a dealer and loved generac?


----------



## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> I thought you were a dealer and loved generac?


I have no problems with the product.. but some of the design features really suck.. :no:

They should get one of the engineers out in the field to see what is involved with this "new and improved" product..

They also give you one 3/4" hole to get (3) #3..GRN.. and control wires into the unit..

It has to be punched out to 1 1/4".. why not start with that size and let us use reducing washers if needed..


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B4T said:


> I have no problems with the product.. but some of the design features really suck.. :no:
> 
> They should get one of the engineers out in the field to see what is involved with this "new and improved" product..
> 
> They also give you one 3/4" hole to get (3) #3..GRN.. and control wires into the unit..
> 
> It has to be punched out to 1 1/4".. why not start with that size and let us use reducing washers if needed..


The first thing I did with this one was pull a 1" hole.


----------



## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> The first thing I did with this one was pull a 1" hole.


Any problem using the old ATS with the new design control panel??


----------



## guest

BBQ said:


> Genercrap strikes again.
> 
> Brand new large unit, commissioned very recently.
> 
> Storm comes, generator runs and then shorts internally and fails. Likely less than 15 hours on it.
> 
> Very impressive ..............


Got pics? :laughing: Is the alternator portion Hecho in China perhaps?


----------



## B4T

Service Magic just called.. they are looking for GENERAC dealers.. I passed on the idea.. so there is a open slot if anyone needs more work.. :no:


----------



## BBQ

mxslick said:


> Got pics? :laughing: Is the alternator portion Hecho in China perhaps?


No, I sent a guy on the call but I will not be out to that one.


----------



## BBQ

B4T said:


> I have no problems with the product.


Maybe that is due to your inexperience with quality equipment.:laughing:



Mr Rewire said:


> I thought you were a dealer and loved generac?


As usual you are wrong.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## B4T

BBQ said:


> Maybe that is due to your inexperience with quality equipment.:laughing:


EVERY Generac generator I have sold in the past (8) years is still working fine today..

I do the maintenance work on them so I should know how they are performing out in the field..

So to me this is "*quality equipment".. *


----------



## Mr Rewire

BBQ said:


> Maybe that is due to your inexperience with quality equipment.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual you are wrong.:thumbup::thumbup:


 you just post whatever pops in your pea brain without even an attept at being correct

here is B4Ts post i think it confirms he was a dealer. Maybe you should try thinking first, posting second.:whistling2:


> I have been a Generac dealer for the past (7) years and have installed units from 6kw. - 20kw.
> 
> All the units have performed perfectly and all my customers are happy they got a dependable product.


 now how was i "wrong again":tt2:


----------



## B4T

Mr Rewire said:


> you just post whatever pops in your pea brain without even an attept at being correct
> 
> here is B4Ts post i think it confirms he was a dealer. Maybe you should try thinking first, posting second.:whistling2:
> now how was i "wrong again":tt2:


Rewire finally has a post that is 100% correct and it shuts up the biggest yap here on ET.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:

BBQ.. do you feel "special" now..


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

B4T said:


> Any problem using the old ATS with the new design control panel??


The transfer wiring is the same, but you need one more wire for the t1 lead to make the battery charge


----------



## BBQ

Mr Rewire said:


> you just post whatever pops in your pea brain without even an attept at being correct
> 
> here is B4Ts post i think it confirms he was a dealer. Maybe you should try thinking first, posting second.:whistling2:
> now how was i "wrong again"





B4T said:


> Rewire finally has a post that is 100% correct and it shuts up the biggest yap here on ET.
> 
> BBQ.. do you feel "special" now..


That quote is not mine.:no::no::no:

I have never been a generac dealer nor have I ever said I was one.

You are both a couple of dolts.:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


----------



## B4T

BBQ said:


> That quote is not mine.:no::no::no:
> 
> I have never been a generac dealer nor have I ever said I was one.
> 
> You are both a couple of dolts.:whistling2::laughing::laughing:


It is MY post from a few months ago.. YOU are the dolt.. :thumbup:

Read it again.. S L O W L Y.. :thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ

B4T said:


> It is MY post from a few months ago.. YOU are the dolt.. :thumbup:
> 
> Read it again.. S L O W L Y.. :thumbsup:


Uh huh and when I do it makes even less sense.:laughing:

I say Generac is crap, Rewire counters that by telling me you are a dealer and somehow he thinks that proves me wrong.

You are both a couple of dolts. Enjoy installing your crappy Generacs and your crappy Dayton fans and burying your boxes. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## garfield

BBQ said:


> Uh huh and when I do it makes even less sense.:laughing:
> 
> I say Generac is crap, Rewire counters that by telling me you are a dealer and somehow he thinks that proves me wrong.
> 
> You are both a couple of dolts. Enjoy installing your crappy Generacs and your crappy Dayton fans and burying your boxes. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


What brand of residential backup Benny is recommended


----------



## Jlarson

Generac still sucks, what else is new.


I'll still install one if that's what the customer wants, I have no problem installing it, ripping it out later on and putting in a Kohler or Onan. :laughing:


----------



## B4T

BBQ said:


> Uh huh and when I do it makes even less sense.:laughing:
> 
> I say Generac is crap, Rewire counters that by telling me you are a dealer and somehow he thinks that proves me wrong.
> 
> You are both a couple of dolts. Enjoy installing your crappy Generacs and your crappy Dayton fans and *burying your boxes*. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


I hope this finally puts that rumor to sleep.. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pvc-box-repair-chapter-5-a-28059/#post523905


----------



## piperunner

Well i guess that Mitsubishi Turbine plant we did a few years ago here in Florida likes Generac they have two for back up.

I guess they think there ok and they manufacture turbines in this plant for mega watt Generators .











Just could not resist !


----------



## sbrn33

That pic belongs in the residential forum how?


----------



## Big John

sbrn33 said:


> That pic belongs in the residential forum how?


 What, you mean to say your house doesn't have one of those?! I've got one right next to the cooling tower.

-John


----------



## TooFarFromFenway

bcramer said:


> I agree that we have some work to do and our Customer First team is addressing some of this. We have programs in place and we continue to improve them for all of our customers not just our dealers. Anyone calling 888-Generac with technical questions that is an installing contractor/engineer (not one of our dealers) is sent over to the technical support group. Our focus is to have the "person" working on the generator properly trained to do so.


Mr. Cramer, 

I must say that I am impressed that you, as (I'm assuming) an employee of Generac, have taken the time to search the internet for discussions on your company's product, and address them. 

In this day in age, internet forums and social media are the biggest way people communicate. It's wise to use these tools to your advantage. 

Glad to see you're doing this. 

Cheers! 

~TooFar


----------



## walkerj

Big John said:


> What, you mean to say your house doesn't have one of those?! I've got one right next to the cooling tower.
> 
> -John


I have two at my vacation house in the caymans next to my boat lift.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


----------



## B4T

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Mr. Cramer,
> 
> I must say that I am impressed that you, as (I'm assuming) an employee of Generac, have taken the time to search the internet for discussions on your company's product, and address them.
> 
> In this day in age, internet forums and social media are the biggest way people communicate. It's wise to use these tools to your advantage.
> 
> Glad to see you're doing this.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> ~TooFar


I sent them an e-mail when the chit first started to hit the fan and mentioned it would be a good idea if someone stopped by to answer questions..

He joined the forum and took the heat for the company and tried to answer the questions best as possible.. IMO

He has not been back since March for some reason.. :laughing:


----------



## walkerj

B4T said:


> I sent them an e-mail when the chit first started to hit the fan and mentioned it would be a good idea if someone stopped by to answer questions..
> 
> He joined the forum and took the heat for the company and tried to answer the questions best as possible.. IMO
> 
> He has not been back since March for some reason.. :laughing:


I think it is commendable that he would come here and take some heat.


----------



## tkb

B4T said:


> I sent them an e-mail when the chit first started to hit the fan and mentioned it would be a good idea if someone stopped by to answer questions..
> 
> He joined the forum and took the heat for the company and tried to answer the questions best as possible.. IMO
> 
> He has not been back since March for some reason.. :laughing:


He could not answer the questions about the Generac HTS transfer switches inability to send a two wire start signal to a portable roll up connected generator. 

If a permanent Generac generator fails and a roll up has to be temporarily connected to an HTS transfer switch, the HTS cannot start the roll up without adding some jury rigged setup. 

Having a roll up connection along with a permanent generator is common with some data centers and cable company head end sites.


----------



## B4T

tkb said:


> He could not answer the questions about the Generac HTS transfer switches inability to send a two wire start signal to a portable roll up connected generator.
> 
> If a permanent Generac generator fails and a roll up has to be temporarily connected to an HTS transfer switch, the HTS cannot start the roll up without adding some jury rigged setup.
> 
> Having a roll up connection along with a permanent generator is common with some data centers and cable company head end sites.


GENERAC is constantly updating their products and I would not be surprised if they incorporate that feature in their new models..

To their credit.. they do listen to what the guys out in the field have to say..


----------



## Wireless

BBQ said:


> Uh huh and when I do it makes even less sense.:laughing:
> 
> I say Generac is crap, Rewire counters that by telling me you are a dealer and somehow he thinks that proves me wrong.
> 
> You are both a couple of dolts. Enjoy installing your crappy Generacs and your crappy Dayton fans and burying your boxes. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


I don't usuall get involved but, Rewire quoted B4T not you, you stuck yourself in that one!


----------



## B4T

Wireless said:


> I don't usuall get involved but, Rewire quoted B4T not you, you stuck yourself in that one!


BBQ has a problem admitting when he is wrong.. it has something to do with the world revolving around him.. :no:


----------



## electricmanscott

B4T said:


> BBQ has a problem admitting when he is wrong.. it has something to do with the world revolving around him.. :no:


Fight! Fight! A n.... nevermind. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ

Wireless said:


> I don't usuall get involved but, Rewire quoted B4T not you, you stuck yourself in that one!


I did as far as the quote.


----------



## Jlarson

Well done bbq :laughing:




The whole no two wire start really sunk generac as an option for all but small portion of my clients, the really small utilities that kinda want, not need generators. Everyone else needs the ability to roll a portable up and hook it in in case they need it, no hacking the ATS necessary.


----------



## B4T

Jlarson said:


> The whole no two wire start really sunk generac as an option for all but small portion of my clients, the really small utilities that kinda want, not need generators. Everyone else needs the ability to roll a portable up and hook it in in case they need it, no hacking the ATS necessary.


I sent GENERAC an e-mail about this subject to see if anything has changed in their design to fix this problem..


----------



## frenchelectrican

B4T said:


> I sent GENERAC an e-mail about this subject to see if anything has changed in their design to fix this problem..


 
Ahh Bon !{ Ah Good !} 

Let us know how they respondé to that one.

I will like have a back up two wire connection as well to speed up the connection on service call.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Jlarson

B4T said:


> I sent GENERAC an e-mail about this subject to see if anything has changed in their design to fix this problem..


From the latest literature I have read still only some model xfer switches have aux two wire. If they wanted to market to comm/industrial they need to put it on all switches.


----------



## Jlarson

frenchelectrican said:


> I will like have a back up two wire connection as well to speed up the connection on service call.


Something tells me you see a lot of generac in WI :laughing:


----------



## frenchelectrican

Jlarson said:


> Something tells me you see a lot of generac in WI :laughing:


 
Yeah just enough to tick me off a little plus cussing in French useally do it pretty good.

But good thing We don't have any Generac's in France AFAIK .,,, :whistling2:

Merci,
Marc


----------



## tkb

B4T said:


> I sent GENERAC an e-mail about this subject to see if anything has changed in their design to fix this problem..


Generac will tell you to use their GTS transfer switch and not the HTS.

The HTS communicates digitally to the generator control panel can receive more information from the ATS.

So Generac's answer is to downgrade your ATS to be able to get two wire start.

I know of quite a few generators with HTS transfer switches out there used at communication sites and their owners will be very upset when there is a failure and need to roll up a temp.


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> Well done bbq :laughing:.


Go mop a roof. :laughing:


----------



## WattHead

So have these gotten any better?. I was thinking of buying a 10 KW one for myself and connecting it to a Natural Gas line.


----------



## Bryan

tkb said:


> Generac will tell you to use their GTS transfer switch and not the HTS.
> 
> The HTS communicates digitally to the generator control panel can receive more information from the ATS.
> 
> So Generac's answer is to downgrade your ATS to be able to get two wire start.
> 
> I know of quite a few generators with HTS transfer switches out there used at communication sites and their owners will be very upset when there is a failure and need to roll up a temp.


The Generac HTS line is now produced with a standard two wire start output as standard backup to loss of communication with the Generac H100 generator control. This can be used with a portable generator. The residential line of Generac transfer switches has never had this capability. The GTS transfer switch has been in production since the '70s and has proven to be extremely reliable. The GTS is typically used in an industrial application. They are produced from 100-2600 amp in all voltages. For those of you who are Cat fans, they are even branded for Cat. For all HTS switches that were not factory equipped with a two wire start, there is a retrofit kit that can be installed for this function. Caterpillar has been a long time customer of Generac, using the Olympian brand name. Currently Generac produces Olympian units from 22KW to 150KW gaseous units with the H100 control panel. They can be used with the GTS, HTS, or any other manufacturers transfer switch that uses a two wire start output.


----------



## WattHead

WattHead said:


> So have these gotten any better?. I was thinking of buying a 10 KW one for myself and connecting it to a Natural Gas line.


What's the average lifespan of these newer ones? I see a lot of complaints on the web.


----------



## Bryan

WattHead said:


> What's the average lifespan of these newer ones? I see a lot of complaints on the web.


When properly installed and maintained by a qualified generator technician, any generator should provide many years of service.


----------



## BBQ

Bryan said:


> When properly installed and maintained by a qualified generator technician, any generator should provide many years of service.


If you are trying to say all products are of equal quility that is just foolish.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

I love how generac bragged on the new design of their transfer switches for months. They bragged of adding an extra neutral lug. Then the bozos went and put the MBJ into one of the holes. They added a hole and then used it. Then they bragged of adding pressure terminals to the controls. You still need stakons for n1 n2 and t1. I'm beginning to think they are complete idiots.


----------



## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> I love how generac bragged on the new design of their transfer switches for months. They bragged of adding an extra neutral lug. Then the bozos went and put the MBJ into one of the holes. They added a hole and then used it. Then they bragged of adding pressure terminals to the controls. You still need stakons for n1 n2 and t1. I'm beginning to think they are complete idiots.


Having a bad day..


----------



## chicken steve

Pressure terminals next to_ anything_ motorized isn't really smart imho....~CS~


----------



## Bugz11B

As far as Generators go what seem to be the least problematic?? I really like Kohler, and Cummins/Onan, however I havent installed enough to really have a "expedience based opinion", other then those two seem quality. Is there any better?? What is good for a homeowner on a budget (other then a portable one)


----------



## gold

Erik.Schaeffer said:


> As far as Generators go what seem to be the least problematic?? I really like Kohler, and Cummins/Onan, however I havent installed enough to really have a "expedience based opinion", other then those two seem quality. Is there any better?? *What is good for a homeowner on a budget (other then a portable one)*


Generac.


----------



## nrp3

I don't know that there is a huge difference in price now between Kohler and Generac air cooled. I haven't priced Cummins air cooled lately. There is always Briggs/GE. Haven't done a Kohler yet. I have one really nice 30kw liquid cooled Cummins out there. The rest are Generac. Right now I sell what I can service and thats Generac. Kohler sent a flyer to me the other day saying they were now looking for dealers. I might look into the service side if it isn't too costly. Headed to Jacksonville for liquid cooled service training for Generac in a couple of weeks. Might look into the air cooled service for Briggs too.


----------



## Bugz11B

nrp3 said:


> I don't know that there is a huge difference in price now between Kohler and Generac air cooled. I haven't priced Cummins air cooled lately. There is always Briggs/GE. Haven't done a Kohler yet. I have one really nice 30kw liquid cooled Cummins out there. The rest are Generac. Right now I sell what I can service and thats Generac. Kohler sent a flyer to me the other day saying they were now looking for dealers. I might look into the service side if it isn't too costly. Headed to Jacksonville for liquid cooled service training for Generac in a couple of weeks. Might look into the air cooled service for Briggs too.


In you experience, what would the top 5 best generator systems be?


----------



## nrp3

I don't know that I really can say. I have been doing almost exclusively Generac now for a few years. I got into the service part because I wanted to be able to service what I sold and not have to wait for others to take care of warranty issues. Now I take care of my own and others installs. I suspect I could install most brands and with proper maintenance and installation it would satisfy the customers needs. I am comfortable with Generac because thats what I have the most experience with and don't lose any sleep over selling it. I work on a couple of Briggs that are out of warranty and they don't seem to be any better or worse than the generac. I like the features of the generac control boards.


----------



## HackWork

Generac has a really nice system and the prices are pretty good was well. I think it's perfect for the normal homeowner who may need a backup generator every now and again. I wouldn't install it in a situation in which there would be heavy use, though.

At my own home, I'd probably go with a Kohler system. It is more expensive but I think it may be worth it.

When comparing Kohler to Generac systems, remember that the Kohler ATS is most likely not service rated and the load shedding is not included, two things that Generac systems include. Load shedding the Kohler adds about $600 to the price.


----------



## nrp3

You do have to account for some additional parts for the Generac load shedding. They have gone to a 12v coil for the load shed relays so there is an additional transformer and the relays themselves. Air conditioning condensers can be shed without additional equipment to buy. None of it big money items.


----------



## HackWork

nrp3 said:


> You do have to account for some additional parts for the Generac load shedding. They have gone to a 12v coil for the load shed relays so there is an additional transformer and the relays themselves. Air conditioning condensers can be shed without additional equipment to buy. None of it big money items.


The last Generac I installed was late 2012.

So what you are saying is that the newer units have 12V coming out of the ATS, but the 50A relays still need 120V?


----------



## nrp3

As I understand it, they have made it so the coils on the relays now can use 12 volts provided by this add on transformer. You could also use the relays with 120v coils too. Apparently they are moving away from 120v coils. This should better explain the changes.

http://dealerconnection.generac.com/Media/UserFiles/file/2013PowerManagementModulePMM.pdf


----------



## HackWork

I can't open that link since I don't have an account.

I'm still a bit confused on how the new system works.


----------



## nolabama

HackWork said:


> I can't open that link since I don't have an account.
> 
> I'm still a bit confused on how the new system works.


It breaks the y1 thermostat wire. After that it controls up to five LSM. Sold separately. I have switch book what are you asking in particular?


----------



## nrp3

It has two sets of dry contacts for just that, breaking the y conductor to the condenser. The other sets of terminals provide power to the coils of electrically held relays. The change was made from 120v coils to 12v coils in these relays.


----------



## HackWork

Yeah, the old one had the 2 dry contacts for AC units and 4 120V contacts for the load shedding modules (the 50A relays).

So what you are saying is that the new system still has the two dry contacts for AC units but the 4 load shedding contacts are no longer 120V, they are 12V? 

If the relays are also 12V, what is the add on transformer you mentioned for?


----------



## nrp3

Sorry, actually 24v. That transformer provides the 24v for the relay coils or if you have the 120v ones you can wire for that too.


----------



## HackWork

Now I am even more confused :laughing::laughing:


What voltage does the ATS put out for the 4 load shedding modules?

What voltage does the 4 load shedding modules accept?


The old system was 120V for both. By what I am gathering here, one of them is now 12V while the other is either 24V or 120V.


----------



## nrp3

My bad its 24v to the coils now if you add the transformer to the ats. Get me an email and I'll send that pdf I posted. They do a better job of explaining and with pictures.


----------



## HackWork

nrp3 said:


> My bad its 24v to the coils now if you add the transformer to the ats. Get me an email and I'll send that pdf I posted.


So the ATS is still putting out 120V? The new relay accept 24V? If so, then I finally understand! :thumbup:

I'll PM you my e-mail address, thanks.


----------



## nolabama

Two sets of normally closed 24v contacts. 
4 sets of 5amp 120 vac contacts. The way I read it. Not sure the exact date of this switch.


----------



## HackWork

nolabama said:


> View attachment 26960
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 26961
> 
> 
> Two sets of normally closed 24v contacts.
> 4 sets of 5amp 120 vac contacts. The way I read it. Not sure the exact date of this switch.


That is the same as the older units that I have installed.

nrp3 is saying that has changed recently.


----------



## nolabama




----------



## nolabama

HackWork said:


> That is the same as the older units that I have installed.
> 
> nrp3 is saying that has changed recently.


This was delivered Monday. It is an RTS 200amp switch.


----------



## HackWork

nolabama said:


> This was delivered Monday. It is an RTS 200amp switch.


Then the ATS is still the same, the only thing that changed is the load shedding modules. They are now 24V instead of 120V like the older ones. That's why you need the transformers.


----------



## nolabama

HackWork said:


> The the ATS is still the same, the only thing that changed is the load shedding modules. They are now 24V instead of 120V like the older ones. That's why you need the transformers.


Oh. I do not have any of those. This is the first install I have done. Hope to do more.

Edit

I guess I have to ask why use an LSM if any contactor will work?


----------



## nrp3

I would tend to think that any would work as long as the coil or coils don't exceed what the output is. I have taken them out of the plastic shell and put them in a can for more room. I might even consider a mechanically held one as they are a little noisy.


----------



## nrp3

They have made some other subtle changes to the switches, but there are a couple of extra terminals on the load shed controller to accept the 24v or 120v that feeds to the terminals of the outputs to the relay coils.


----------



## HackWork

Have you tried using this instead of the load shedding module?

http://www.norwall.com/products/Guardian-Auxilary-Transfer-Switch-Contact-Kit.html


----------



## nrp3

That's a good point. I have one I am going to do that will support a portion of a geothermal heating system. I am going to use one of those to lock out the heat strips in the air handler. That will break one side of the contactor feeding the heat strips. It's a good way to ensure something won't come on.


----------



## HackWork

I got your PDF, it clears everything up, thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## gold

HackWork said:


> I got your PDF, it clears everything up, thanks :thumbsup:


Puff Puff Pass. Don't bogart the PDF!


----------



## HackWork

Goldagain said:


> Puff Puff Pass. Don't bogart the PDF!


Tomorrow. I'm iPading from the recliner at the moment.


----------



## wirenut1110

HackWork said:


> Have you tried using this instead of the load shedding module?
> 
> http://www.norwall.com/products/Guardian-Auxilary-Transfer-Switch-Contact-Kit.html


I use a 12 VDC relay ($5.50) paralleled with 23 & 194 to lock out heat strips and other things. Hook up any control to NC contacts on relay so, when the generator calls for transfer, it energizes the coil and opens the contacts.

Usually there's extra conductors at the condenser so, I can use them to break the white to the auxiliary heat. Especially when the AHU is in the attic.

The load shed module now has terminals Load supply 1, T1, neutral, load supply 2.

If you want to use contactors with 120 V coils, jumper between T-1 and Load supply 1, neutral-load supply 2.

If you want to use contactors with 24 V coils, feed transformer primary from T-1 & N, and secondary to Load supply 1 & 2.


----------

