# Conduit runs behind transformer



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I need to run conduits from 2 different panels to 2 pieces of equipment. I am trying to save on material cost and keep my runs as short as possible. I have a 200 amp boiler that is 480 v and is positioned to the left side of the transformer and the 120 / 208 panel. I can go overhead with long drop rods for support but it is much more work and cost. I’m just wondering if there was any code that says I can’t strap my conduit along the wall and pass behind the transformer. The transformer sets about 10” off the wall so I do have ample room. I don’t think that heat from the transformer will be a factor. Can I do it Yes? No?


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I don't see any reason why you would not be able to run behind the transformer as long as you don't have a j-box behind it.


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Yes.


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I thought you quit that brewery job?


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> I don't see any reason why you would not be able to run behind the transformer as long as you don't have a j-box behind it.


Yes a j-box would be a definite violation. I would prefer to go overhead but as I mentioned the runs would be much longer and cost would go up. I would probably have to build stations and use drop rod and the conduit runs would look funky. Thanks ..


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> I thought you quit that brewery job?


I made up with my boss. :smile: He gave me a raise.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Here is a picture of the panels in question. They are being installed by another contractor.
The Brewhouse is only about 4 feet from the 480v panel and that gets washed down when it gets dirty. The contractor used enclosures that are 3R or 3R/12 Notice the 2" set screw connectors at the top where the parallel 4/0 feeders come in. The covers were incorrect as well and he is ordering some kind of gasket kit for them and weather shields for the transformer. 







All of my other runs will go overhead.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Here is the top view of the panel. I can't see how it can qualify as a 3r enclosure.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Looks like Nema 1

Nice drawing, what did you use for that ?


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

dronai said:


> Looks like Nema 1
> 
> Nice drawing, what did you use for that ?


I used Adobe Illustrator. I like it because it's easy to use and you can export to many formats like PDF and even Auto Cad. Yes it looks like Nema 1 but here is a picture of the label inside the enclosure.


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

the label confirms its NEMA 1. It has some specs for Nema 1, 3R or 3R/12 but at the top it specifies it as "Enclosure Type: 1"


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

If you look at the picture you posted of the top of the panel. Water will drip right into the joints of the panel between the top and bottom. Gaskets on the cover will not be enough. He needs a new panel. If he wants it for wash down you would want 4 or 4x. 3R is only meant for rain, not directed water or high pressure. The current panel is NEMA 1.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> the label confirms its NEMA 1. It has some specs for Nema 1, 3R or 3R/12 but at the top it specifies it as "Enclosure Type: 1"


Yes I see it now. This label is probably used for both enclosure types but yes it does say Nema 1 Thanks much.. My first clue was the top of the enclosure. 

The EE and the electrical contractor are the responsible parties for this and when I showed it to the electrician he just said he goes by the print without any consideration for location. Wet Location... Lets see what they do. I thought I was being a nice guy pointing it out to them before they pulled in the feeders.


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

I don't blame the contractor. If the prints say NEMA 1 I would install a NEMA 1. Price can go up quite a bit. How ever I would have submitted a change order (Hefty one at that) when I heard they want to wash down the equipment. Let them pay for their own mistakes (the EE is my guess).


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

It was definitely nice telling them before he pulled wire. Knowing their intent and then seeing a NEMA 1 enclosure with set screw connectors is definitely a red flag.


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Easy said:


> Here is a picture of the panels in question. They are being installed by another contractor.
> The Brewhouse is only about 4 feet from the 480v panel and that gets washed down when it gets dirty. The contractor used enclosures that are 3R or 3R/12 Notice the 2" set screw connectors at the top where the parallel 4/0 feeders come in. The covers were incorrect as well and he is ordering some kind of gasket kit for them and* weather shields* for the transformer.
> 
> 
> ...


Drip shields for the xfmr. aint gonna cut it if it's going to get washed down. They need an enclosed xfmr.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

joebanana said:


> Drip shields for the xfmr. aint gonna cut it if it's going to get washed down. They need an enclosed xfmr.


Makes sense to me. I think it's always a good idea to look at the drawings at least "twice" and read the notations about the equipment that is on the drawings. Especially a Large Stainless Steel Brewhouse that is 4' from a 480v panel. If you don't know, ask.. Lets see what happens. It's up to the customer (my boss) the contractor and the AHJ.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> I don't blame the contractor. If the prints say NEMA 1 I would install a NEMA 1. Price can go up quite a bit. How ever I would have submitted a change order (Hefty one at that) when I heard they want to wash down the equipment. Let them pay for their own mistakes (the EE is my guess).


The EE did a real good job on the overall design but somehow this was over looked. He specked all the discos and combo starer to be WP but not the service. He included switch sizes,CB sizes and fuse sizes. Maybe build a wall and move the wash down area. I can't imagine how much a WP service like this would cost, but it's for a good cause. Bear 
I think it is actually still in plan check status, not sure. City planers take forever.


----------



## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Several years ago I started going against the standard install of panel-trans-panel layout like you have it shown. I never liked walking around the transformer to work in one panel or the other. We always gutter over or under our panels because inevitably you will need two different voltages in the same area across the building, and most of the time they could be combined in the same conduit if you had a gutter. This old arrangement just made the gutter longer having to cross over the gap behind the trans.

Now I do it trans-panel-panel and usually tuck the trans in the corner up against the adjacent perpendicular wall where you won't bump your hips into it. It puts the panels next to each, the gutter gets shorter and more accessible and things just seem to get easier to work on.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I don't think there's anywhere that says as long as the enclosure is rated 3R you can put anything you want into it and it remains raintight  You need a hub and at a minimum EMT with a sealing locknut and raintight compression fittings. 

I don't think 3R is the right designation for this environment, 3R is for falling rain / sleet / snow, you want NEMA 4 for splashing water and hose-down. 

https://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/nema-enclosure-types.pdf


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Cow said:


> Several years ago I started going against the standard install of panel-trans-panel layout like you have it shown. I never liked walking around the transformer to work in one panel or the other. We always gutter over or under our panels because inevitably you will need two different voltages in the same area across the building, and most of the time they could be combined in the same conduit if you had a gutter. This old arrangement just made the gutter longer having to cross over the gap behind the trans.
> 
> Now I do it trans-panel-panel and usually tuck the trans in the corner up against the adjacent perpendicular wall where you won't bump your hips into it. It puts the panels next to each, the gutter gets shorter and more accessible and things just seem to get easier to work on.


I have not done one in a few years now, but a number of years ago I started to hang the Xmfr where possible, just to get it off the floor. Even in the corner, the Xmfr still takes up valuable wall space. Rarely does anyone have to go into the Xmfr and in most installs we have discos on each side of it, so it you wanted to take readings you could do it right from there.

Cheers
John


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

splatz said:


> I don't think there's anywhere that says as long as the enclosure is rated 3R you can put anything you want into it and it remains raintight  You need a hub and at a minimum EMT with a sealing locknut and raintight compression fittings.
> 
> I don't think 3R is the right designation for this environment, 3R is for falling rain / sleet / snow, you want NEMA 4 for splashing water and hose-down.
> 
> https://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/nema-enclosure-types.pdf


Thanks Splatz the document on Nema enclosures you provided is real detailed. I hope the EE will get this figured out soon so I can get to work on running the branch circuits. The town I live in is kind of small and the city inspectors don't seem to have solid electrical knowledge. There are lots of small breweries just like this one and when I visit them it's almost laughable because they are all wired with nema 1 enclosures and set screw connectors. I do agree with everyone that Nema 4 would be the proper enclosure for this application.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

EE's Drawing / partial Hope it's large enough to see
https://sites.google.com/site/marshmanbrewery/_/rsrc/1581270803260/equipment/01-closeup.jpg


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

My policy -- if it can fit -- is to put the XFMR above the twin panels. This may entail hanging it off the wall in a frame -- or -- sometimes -- tossing it atop the lid of an office space at the edge of the warehouse.

Floor-space is EXPENSIVE. No property owner wants to part with it -- and will usually suffer the extra to get that beast up and out of the way.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

As for this build, it needs a total re-think. 

The wall, itself, is not ready for wash-down duty... let alone the gear.

In wash-down mode, the water is going everywhere.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Also pay attention to 450.9 and make sure to allow for the requested ventilation clearances. Used to be a set clearance to the wall, but now it is supposed to be marked on the transformer itself.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

telsa said:


> As for this build, it needs a total re-think.
> 
> The wall, itself, is not ready for wash-down duty... let alone the gear.
> 
> In wash-down mode, the water is going everywhere.


Yes for sure.. It's drywall with plywood ran up to 8 ft. My boss owns the building so he can do as he pleases. I imagine that he figures that his brewery guys will be super careful and try not to get the wall wet or splash water into the service. That might be the case for the first week or so. People do dumb things and we need to build for that.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

telsa said:


> My policy -- if it can fit -- is to put the XFMR above the twin panels. This may entail hanging it off the wall in a frame -- or -- sometimes -- tossing it atop the lid of an office space at the edge of the warehouse.
> 
> Floor-space is EXPENSIVE. No property owner wants to part with it -- and will usually suffer the extra to get that beast up and out of the way.


Perhaps a mezzanine would work for the transformer and panels. The savings on conduit and wire would help offset the cost as the runs would all be shorter.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

This build is begging for such a treatment.


----------

