# What Should Be In First Year Curriculum



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> What should be the Curriculum for a first year Inside Wireman (industrial, commercial and a little residential) apprentice?


Classroom or field?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

brian john said:


> Classroom or field?


I meant classroom but I would appreciate input on either if your offering.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Some math review, ohms law or at least an introduction.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> I meant classroom but I would appreciate input on either if your offering.


Field will vary

Depends on the firm you get assigned too (I assume union).

I did decks and commercial offices,
Our apprentices do data centers and assist with electrical testing.
You could be digging a ditch, sweeping floors, delivering material, or assisting a JW in any work the EC you are working for.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

It would really be helpful to know why you're asking. Are you a non-union contractor or working for a non-union contractor?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> It would really be helpful to know why you're asking. Are you a non-union contractor or working for a non-union contractor?


for ideas of what our curriculum should be (union)


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Here our school is split into 3 terms, ressidential, commercial and industrial. 

Each level also covers code, prints, electronics, electrical theory and instrumentation.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> for ideas of what our curriculum should be (union)


Isn’t your curriculum made for you by the NJATC?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Wiresmith said:


> for ideas of what our curriculum should be (union)


 I'm surprised. I would think that you would already have a curriculum & just have to tweak it.


Check out NCCER's curriculum for ideas...
https://www.nccer.org/workforce-development-programs/disciplines/craft-details/electrical


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Isn’t your curriculum made for you by the NJATC?


there's a core curriculum many locals abide by but the locals decide the rest


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> I'm surprised. I would think that you would already have a curriculum & just have to tweak it.


we do, that's what i'm looking at, tweaking


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> there's a core curriculum many locals abide by but the locals decide the rest


Do your instructors go to NTI?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Do your instructors go to NTI?


yes.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> yes.


Good. You can learn a lot from the different people that go there as everyone does it differently.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Good. You can learn a lot from the different people that go there as everyone does it differently.


I think i do remember you posting a while ago you went into full-time instructing. Do you go to NTI? I've been up there twice just for the Trade Show and ceremony.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Whether it's the local pizza shop, NASA or a trade apprenticeship program, something everyone needs to know is how to work in an organization. Since most people are young at this stage, it would be a good subject to bring up. 



Example: Newbie may be told to sweep a floor from left to right. Supervisor who told him that might have a thousand things going on. For newbie to question why left to right is contraindicated. He was told to sweep from left to right and that's how it needs to be done. If that's wrong that's fine; he did what he was told. If it needs to be done again he (or someone else) will get paid to do it again. No problem. 



Let's say newbie were to question why to sweep it that way. Now he's distracting supervisor who may be working hard to prevent something catastrophic from happening. That's a bad thing. 



Let's say newbie takes it upon himself to do it "a better way" and then along comes another crew expecting the left half of the room to be available when they arrive. Now newbie just cost some company crew time of 8 guys @ $75/ hour for 45 minutes and the EC gets backcharged because his mess was not out of the way when informed.


Just some examples of do what you're told. If you have a better way, you can tell your subordinates the better way when you make supervisor in 10 years. Otherwise, don't tell a guy with 10 years more than you how to do things. Just do what you're told.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> I think i do remember you posting a while ago you went into full-time instructing. Do you go to NTI? I've been up there twice just for the Trade Show and ceremony.


Yes, I completed the “I” group and still go every year to the “C” group for training directors. I also take one or two technical courses each year.
All our trainers, part time and full time attend the four year “I” group even though we do not teach the curriculum at all. We create and teach our own curriculum up here to coincide with the red seal training our apprentices get through the college.
The “I” group is great for teaching an electrician how to be an instructor.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Health and safety on construction sites 254-992 30 h 
Occupation and training 283-401 15 h 
Use a computer 283-412 30 h 
Electrical systems 283-428 120 h 
Sketches and diagrams 283-433 45 h 
Tools 283-445 75 h 
Material Handling 283-453 45 h 
Cables & Channels (EMT, PVC, etc) 283-466 90 hrs 
Residential Branch Circuits 283-477 105 h 
Plans and Technical Manuals 283-484 60 h 
Three-Phase Transformers 283-494 60 h 
Electrical Connection 283-506 90 h 
Electronic Circuits 283-517 105 h 
Logic circuits 283-525 75 h 
Lighting system 283-537 105 h 
Heating system 283-546 90 h 
Communications cabling 283-555 75 h 
Fire alarm system 283-564 60 h 
Home automation and telephony 283-578 120 h 
Single-phase DC and AC rotary machines 283-586 90 h 
Three-phase AC rotary machine 283-597 105 h 
Programmable controller 283-607 105 h 
Electronic instrumentation 283-615 75 h 
Preparation for the job market 

(some of the titles might be a bit wonky, i chucked them into google translate since I'm at school in french)

that's my curriculum spanned out between a year and a half (1800 hours)


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Posting that made me realize how close I am to being done! I'm doing 3 phase motors right now.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Martine said:


> Posting that made me realize how close I am to being done! I'm doing 3 phase motors right now.



We want to see that piece of paper at the end now.


Since we did raise you!


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> We want to see that piece of paper at the end now.
> 
> 
> Since we did raise you!


I'm done February 7th! We're off for almost 3 weeks in December/January, so I'm sure it's going to fly by.

I'm sure I'll be pestering you guys with questions once I'm out on the field and not in class :glasses:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> Health and safety on construction sites 254-992 30 h
> Occupation and training 283-401 15 h
> Use a computer 283-412 30 h
> Electrical systems 283-428 120 h
> ...


That is the complete curriculum, not just the first year. Everywhere else splits that up into 3, 4 or 5 terms while also working in the field. Only Quebec does it all at once before ever working in the field.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> I'm done February 7th! We're off for almost 3 weeks in December/January, so I'm sure it's going to fly by.
> 
> I'm sure I'll be pestering you guys with questions once I'm out on the field and not in class :glasses:


Congrats on almost finishing it.

How many hours must you get in the field before you can write the license?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Only Quebec does it all at once before ever working in the field.


wow, i don't think that's a good idea. but i'm not french, so...


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Congrats on almost finishing it.
> 
> How many hours must you get in the field before you can write the license?


8000! But my 1800 hours is applicable to whatever period in those 8000 hours I choose, so there's apprentice 1,2,3,4 (2000 hours each)

Most people suggest using the 1800 hours to almost completely skip out being a 4th year, since you cost almost as much as a journeyman, but since you're still an apprentice you need a journeyman with you. This typically makes it that you're one of the first ones to get slacked off a job.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> wow, i don't think that's a good idea. but i'm not french, so...


I agree, there's nothing that really compares to working and learning on the field as you go. Quebec is like this for electricity, which the "pool" hasn't been open since like 1992. I don't know if I'm using the right term, being a frenchie and all.

The pool is for certain trades that they don't have enough people coming out of schools for the amount of jobs there are (carpenters being one of them), you can skip school, and I think it's something along the line of working 10 months then you go to school for 2 months and repeat for a few years.

They only do that when they HAVE to though, I'm technically eligible for the electricity pool because they're accepting native americans and women, but the chances of getting hired are slim to none since you know NOTHING about electricity. So I opted for school! 

You HAVE to be unionized here, so it's not bad when you're trying to find a job after school. They also are somewhat lacking workers, so they're subsidizing most of the schooling for people who were able to score high enough to get into the program (they take about 80 a year, just under 400 tried to get in when I did my test). In Ontario (where I'm from originally) it would have cost me a few thousand, and in Quebec it was only 800$, with all my classbooks AND the code included.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> In Ontario (where I'm from originally) it would have cost me a few thousand,


It’s free in Ontario actually. You do have to pay for books (about $1000 including the code book) and a small tuition (less than $2000 for all three levels) but the government gives you $4000 in grants when your done. $1000 for each of the first two levels and then $2000 when your done. 

Also, school is broken up over your apprenticeship so you learn as you go and collect employment insurance while in school. Basically you get paid while in school. 

The hard part is you can not attend school unless you have a job first and are registered as an apprentice.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

eddy current said:


> It’s free in Ontario actually. You do have to pay for books (about $1000 including the code book) and a small tuition (less than $2000 for all three levels) but the government gives you $4000 in grants when your done. $1000 for each of the first two levels and then $2000 when your done.
> 
> Also, school is broken up over your apprenticeship so you learn as you go and collect employment insurance while in school. Basically you get paid while in school.
> 
> The hard part is you can not attend school unless you have a job first and are registered as an apprentice.


We get the grants too! Apprentice grants and also the grants from red seal. My partner is going into his 2nd year apprenticeship for carpentry and he just applied for the first grant and he'll be getting that shortly. :smile:


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

eddy current said:


> It’s free in Ontario actually. You do have to pay for books (about $1000 including the code book) and a small tuition (less than $2000 for all three levels) but the government gives you $4000 in grants when your done. $1000 for each of the first two levels and then $2000 when your done.


I just had a look at the cite collegiale site out of curiosity because I could have sworn it was more

https://www.collegelacite.ca/programmes/31259.htm
Once you add all the regular fees together, the extra fees and the supply fees up together, it comes up to 3851$

it might be different if you go through the union though


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Only Quebec does it all at once before ever working in the field.
> ...


I have had a few apprentices come from Quebec to Ontario who had a hard time passing their license. Their school was so long ago and by the time they are done their hours and want to write the license, a new code book is out that they did not learn from.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > It’s free in Ontario actually. You do have to pay for books (about $1000 including the code book) and a small tuition (less than $2000 for all three levels) but the government gives you $4000 in grants when your done. $1000 for each of the first two levels and then $2000 when your done.
> ...


Is that the actual apprenticeship course or is it a pre apprentice thing? Sorry, I don’t read French. Many colleges offer the pre apprentice thing which is not required at all, just a money grab


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Is that the actual apprenticeship course or is it a pre apprentice thing? Sorry, I don’t read French. Many colleges offer the pre apprentice thing which is not required at all, just a money grab


It's the actual apprenticeship course, the pre-apprentice program (which you just get a diploma for small maintenance (so I'm assuming low voltage and whatnot) is a whopping 4799.65$ which is INSANITY

There's also probably a cost BECAUSE it's in french


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Martine said:


> You HAVE to be unionized here,


is that a literal statement or an exaggeration? do you absolutely have to be union there? is it required by law?


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> is that a literal statement or an exaggeration? do you absolutely have to be union there? is it required by law?


Union associations

In Québec, the labour-relations system in the construction industry, governed by the Act Respecting Labour Relations, Vocational Training, and Workforce Management in the Construction Industry (Act R-20) recognizes union pluralism. The aim of the union associations is to analyze, promote, and develop their members’ economic, social, and educational interests. 

*When they enter the industry, workers are obliged to choose the union association that they want to join*. They have the option of changing associations every four years, during a union vote.

https://www.ccq.org/en/M_RegimeRelationsTravail/M05_AssociationsSyndicales?profil=GrandPublic


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

*Obliged*. LOL, i know you got that off that website, i know it's not your word choice, but that is some communist B.S.


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## Martine (Jan 26, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> *Obliged*. LOL, i know you got that off that website, i know it's not your word choice, but that is some communist B.S.


I *think* they just did a ****ty translation (it happens a lot)

Obliged sounds very very close to "obligé" in french, which means mandatory.

But who knows :vs_laugh:

*edit: I just put the page back in french, and it's "the worker has the obligation to", so yeah, just a bad choice of translation. hahaha


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Martine said:


> I *think* they just did a ****ty translation (it happens a lot)
> 
> Obliged sounds very very close to "obligé" in french, which means mandatory.
> 
> ...


i think they used the word they wanted to, it's funny to me because i often here obliged used to mean something like "thank you" by saying "much obliged". the literal definition of obliged is how they used it though (mandatory). but it just seems like a choice word to me, to avoid any negative connotation of another word they could have used like "mandatory", "required"or "obligated". just seems like they are trying to avoid a "mandatory requirement to join a union" from looking like a negative thing. typical communist propaganda type of thing


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Wiresmith said:


> i think they used the word they wanted to, it's funny to me because i often here obliged used to mean something like "thank you" by saying "much obliged". the literal definition of obliged is how they used it though (mandatory). but it just seems like a choice word to me, to avoid any negative connotation of another word they could have used like "mandatory", "required"or "obligated". just seems like they are trying to avoid a "mandatory requirement to join a union" from looking like a negative thing. typical communist propaganda type of thing


Quebec is 100% unionized for the electrical trade. There are 5 different unions and you must be part of one of them


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Quebec is 100% unionized for the electrical trade. There are 5 different unions and you must be part of one of them


hows that working out? how long has it been like that?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

The thing that stood out to me that was lacking for the whole curriculum was the NEC. There was no code taught, or even referred to that I remember. Just all theory. Print reading, and basic surveying, like stake deciphering, and translating, would be good too.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

My first year njact was mainly therory. Ac, dc , ohms law , a lot of math , 

Hands on we learned s3, s4 switches .

Bending a 4,3 point saddles 

It was cool we had a hands on final
At end of year we had to pass in order to advance .

I think each local should be able to 
Tweak the corriculum depending on 
What kind of wrk the local mainly sends men off to .


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Wiresmith said:
> 
> 
> > i think they used the word they wanted to, it's funny to me because i often here obliged used to mean something like "thank you" by saying "much obliged". the literal definition of obliged is how they used it though (mandatory). but it just seems like a choice word to me, to avoid any negative connotation of another word they could have used like "mandatory", "required"or "obligated". just seems like they are trying to avoid a "mandatory requirement to join a union" from looking like a negative thing. typical communist propaganda type of thing
> ...


Are all the unions in the elctrical trade ibew ?

That’s preety cool I’m glad Quebec is union strong


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> The thing that stood out to me that was lacking for the whole curriculum was the NEC. There was no code taught, or even referred to that I remember. Just all theory. Print reading, and basic surveying, like stake deciphering, and translating, would be good too.


In my local (which goes by the NJATC) the 3rd year apprentices go into something called Codeology which teaches them how to read and understand the code and then in 4th and 5th year they get into Codes & Practices which teaches the NEC directly. It's a very thorough apprenticeship,


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

joebanana said:


> The thing that stood out to me that was lacking for the whole curriculum was the NEC. There was no code taught, or even referred to that I remember. Just all theory. Print reading, and basic surveying, like stake deciphering, and translating, would be good too.


interesting and surprising to hear

i had code, enough quantity wise but not quality geared at all, they just like through the book up in the air and seen what page it turned to closed there eyes and pointed to a section and asked a question on it. we had codeolgy too, it was just about code layout though. what was missing in mine was the why of the code, why the the f^^^^ do we do this? never got a decent why, never saw them in the books either except soares on grounding.

i always loved the part in the NEC that says " not a design manual or for untrained persons.". i ask "when do i get the other books then?" you ask "what books are you referring to?" i reply " the one that will make me a trained person and the design manual."

still haven't came across those, but i always thought it was funny that the code book was(in my experience) completely treated like a design manual and NOT a code book(minimum standard)

code book in my experience was treated as the design manual/desired design/perfection/maximum standard not the minimum standard(what the code actually is)

thanks for the suggestions


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Unionpride277 said:


> Are all the unions in the elctrical trade ibew ?
> 
> That’s preety cool I’m glad Quebec is union strong


it's not union strong, it's government strong

if it was union strong the government would have no need at all to have a law that you must be union.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Wiresmith said:
> ...


Only one is IBEW


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Martine said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Is that the actual apprenticeship course or is it a pre apprentice thing? Sorry, I don’t read French. Many colleges offer the pre apprentice thing which is not required at all, just a money grab
> ...


Here is how it works in Ontario.

The apprenticeship courses are for registered apprentices only meaning you must already be working for an electrical contractor and registered as an apprentice to take the program. 

After about a year or two of working, you will receive a letter from the ministry telling you it’s your turn to go to school. It cost approximately $500 plus $1000 in books for a full time, 8 week course which includes code, theory, practical, electronics etc. (If your unionized they help quite a bit with the books and some also help with the tuition) You also claim unemployment insurance so you are still getting paid while in school. When it is done you then get a $1000 grand from the government. 

You go back to work for another year or two, then get a letter for the next round of school. It costs approximately $600 for a 10 week course but only around $200 in books because you use many of the books you bought the first term. Same deal, unemployment checks while at school and another $1000 grant when done. 

Back to work again until the letter for the last term of school comes in. Approximately $700 plus $200 in books for an 11 week course which includes a week of license exam prep, unemployment checks but no grant. After you pass the license you then get a $2000 grant.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Wiresmith, Does the Curriculum they use include Lesson Plans?
A Lesson Plan describes how the teacher and student will achieve each step of the subject matter. It's broken down into each day or hour of class.
A lesson plan includes:
1. Theory - the subject covered in the Classroom
2. Skills - Physically completing project in the Lab
3. Standards - a description of the Objectives
4. Assessment - Tests or other method to prove the student acquired the knowledge and skills

I taught High School for eight years and have a Masters in Education.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> it's not *union strong*, it's government strong
> 
> if it was union strong the government would have no need at all to have a law that you must be union.


Seems someone (not you) was drinking way too much cool-aid during apprenticeship.


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## metsen duts (Jan 14, 2015)

in ibew lu 666 richmond va the first year curriculum was dc theory and basic conduit bending(emt 90s, offsets, and learning how to run a ridgid threader.)


now that i am 6 months away from topping out. heres what i think the circulum should be. 



lesson one: walking with purpose: how to use your feet to get from one place to another in a timely manner.


lesson two: do as your told: simple do exactly what you were told to do. 



lesson three: the tool list: the tool list is there for a reason you shold always have kliens, channel locks and a screw driver on your person AT ALL TIMES


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> What should be the Curriculum for a first year Inside Wireman (industrial, commercial and a little residential) apprentice?



Get good enough with the ohms law so you can do calculations in your head... will benefit you for the rest of your career.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> What should be the Curriculum for a first year Inside Wireman (industrial, commercial and a little residential) apprentice?



Lazers. 8 o'clock. Day 1!


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Martine said:
> 
> 
> > eddy current said:
> ...


 Wow, when I did my apprenticeship ('91-'95) we didn't pay for anything. We got unemployment even if you didn't have enough hours to qualify normally, plus we got a training allowance, but no grants at the end. That's a good idea though, I know guys that did levels more than once because they didn't care. My employer didn't give you the raise if you didn't pass, so that was a pretty good incentive.
Always lots of code right from day one.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Kawicrash said:


> My employer didn't give you the raise if you didn't pass, so that was a pretty good incentive.


Smart employer


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

3DDesign said:


> Wiresmith, Does the Curriculum they use include Lesson Plans?
> A Lesson Plan describes how the teacher and student will achieve each step of the subject matter. It's broken down into each day or hour of class.
> A lesson plan includes:
> 1. Theory - the subject covered in the Classroom
> ...


Sorry i didn't respond sooner, i didn't catch it in my subscriptions.
No there isn't a formal enough lesson plan like you describe. thank you, that seems like an absolutely necessary step.


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