# Islolated grounding conductor



## Bkessler

Where would an inspector get an idea in his head the an IG receptacle circuit had to have a green with yellow striped insulation for the isolated ground ? I've looked at 250.146 (d) but didn't know if I was missing something somewhere. Or if it's a common spec but not code.


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## Big John

I'm guessing that he's thinking of cable assemblies that include an EGC and an IG conductor where the added IG is often yellow-striped. 










But even there I don't know of anything requiring that color coding, and you could swap the functions of the two grounding conductors as long as your were consistent throughout your installation.


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## erics37

There's no code mandate for it, it's just what is typically done. That's how I do 'em.

Ask him for a code reference. In fact, ask all inspectors for code references when they pull stuff out of their ass.


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## Bkessler

erics37 said:


> ask all inspectors for code references when they pull stuff out of their ass.


I politely told him there was no such code and he'd have to educate me in writing if he wanted it changed.


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## five.five-six

Emphasis on _politely._


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## ND80

250.119 
Individual conductors shall have an outer finish of green or green with yellow stripes as permitted in this section...


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## Meadow

bigger question is where would someone get the idea you need an isolated ground:jester:

Just politely saying.


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## Bkessler

meadow said:


> bigger question is where would someone get the idea you need an isolated ground:jester: Just politely saying.


Engineering school would be my guess.


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## Meadow

Bkessler said:


> Engineering school would be my guess.


Sometimes engineers look for the forest but the trees get in the way:jester:


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## erics37

ND80 said:


> 250.119
> Individual conductors shall have an outer finish of green or green with yellow stripes as permitted in this section...


I think you kinda misunderstood.

We know that insulated EGCs need to be certain colors, but the OP is referring to isolated ground circuits. His inspector is saying it is required to have green w/ yellow stripe (and it is typically done that way) but the NEC doesn't mandate it.


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## cuba_pete

meadow said:


> bigger question is where would someone get the idea you need an isolated ground:jester:
> 
> Just politely saying.


Where noise can be a problem on an audio system where the design minimum ambient is south of 30 dBm.

Where SMPS artifacts on UL approved devices impress noise below 200 Hz.

Where single ended audio outputs are converted to balanced lines.


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## Barjack

cuba_pete said:


> Where noise can be a problem on an audio system where the design minimum ambient is south of 30 dBm.
> 
> Where SMPS artifacts on UL approved devices impress noise below 200 Hz.
> 
> Where single ended audio outputs are converted to balanced lines.


_If_ a properly installed IG (where the IG runs isolated all the way back to the service neutral) corrects these problems, isn't that evidence of other, bigger issues elsewhere in the system, and the IG is just a bandaid?


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## Ontario

Bkessler said:


> Where would an inspector get an idea in his head the an IG receptacle circuit had to have a green with yellow striped insulation for the isolated ground ? I've looked at 250.146 (d) but didn't know if I was missing something somewhere. Or if it's a common spec but not code.


In Canada, there is a code for that. Not sure about the US, but it should pretty much be the same.


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## Service Call

I believe if you have a EGC and an IG in the same raceway, enclosure, etc., there should be an identification difference. Norm as stated would be a yellow ID. If it's not an issue, just do it.


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## don_resqcapt19

cuba_pete said:


> Where noise can be a problem on an audio system where the design minimum ambient is south of 30 dBm.
> 
> Where SMPS artifacts on UL approved devices impress noise below 200 Hz.
> 
> Where single ended audio outputs are converted to balanced lines.


There is no evidence that an isolated ground helps with any of that.


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## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> Where noise can be a problem on an audio system where the design minimum ambient is south of 30 dBm.
> 
> Where SMPS artifacts on UL approved devices impress noise below 200 Hz.
> 
> Where single ended audio outputs are converted to balanced lines.


NOPE, and did I say NOOOOOOOO.

Not when the AC distribution is properly installed.

And I have corrected problems at TV stations, Radio, recording studios, video recording studios, telecom centers, data centers, hospitals and a slew of others.


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## V-Dough

Big John said:


> I'm guessing that he's thinking of cable assemblies that include an EGC and an IG conductor where the added IG is often yellow-striped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But even there I don't know of anything requiring that color coding, and you could swap the functions of the two grounding conductors as long as your were consistent throughout your installation.


I have never seen an American cable with yellow striped conductor. I have done medical and office buildings that speced IG, and just pulled regular green #12 into EMT. The inspector said I can run one home IG run per 2 or 3 circuits. BX IG cable comes with your regular bare bonding conductor and IG solid green conductor.


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## wildleg

We have a couple places around here where you will get turned down if the IG isn't striped, but I think one of them actually has an amendment.


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## cuba_pete

Bad Electrician said:


> NOPE, and did I say NOOOOOOOO.
> 
> Not when the AC distribution is properly installed.
> 
> And I have corrected problems at TV stations, Radio, recording studios, video recording studios, telecom centers, data centers, hospitals and a slew of others.


A few others have replied to my response, so I'll just grab the last one...

I respect that you have been able to correct problems at numerous locations. I can't deny that it's possible, but by utilizing an IG system from day one, there aren't any issues which need to be corrected.

It's crazy to me when a perfectly sound method of grounding and bonding is so adamantly put down. An isolated grounding system _*is*_ part of a properly installed AC distribution system.

An isolated grounding system (star ground) isn't much different than standard grounding methods. The IEEE, NEC, and various government and military manual, instructions and handbooks highlight the methods and benefits of an isolated ground.

A few of those references include: NFPA 70, IEEE Green Book, IEEE Emerald Book, the Unified Facilities Criteria, and MIL-HDBK-411B. Those are just the ones off of the top of my head.


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## cuba_pete

*evidence*



don_resqcapt19 said:


> There is no evidence that an isolated ground helps with any of that.


The IEEE tends to disagree. Numerous case studies are presented in the Green and Emerald books.


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## cuba_pete

Barjack said:


> _If_ a properly installed IG (where the IG runs isolated all the way back to the service neutral) corrects these problems, isn't that evidence of other, bigger issues elsewhere in the system, and the IG is just a bandaid?


Not necessarily.

I cannot control how some devices are wired internally during manufacturing. The design minimum ambient for some audio systems may be so incredibly low that the "noise" on the low side of a single-ended output is intolerable.

I am talking microvolts here.

IG isn't a bandaid...it's a method for a complete grounding scheme.


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## Meadow

cuba_pete said:


> Where noise can be a problem on an audio system where the design minimum ambient is south of 30 dBm.
> 
> Where SMPS artifacts on UL approved devices impress noise below 200 Hz.
> 
> Where single ended audio outputs are converted to balanced lines.


Fixing wiring errors will solve that problem.


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## Meadow

cuba_pete said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> I cannot control how some devices are wired internally during manufacturing. The design minimum ambient for some audio systems may be so incredibly low that the "noise" on the low side of a single-ended output is intolerable.
> 
> I am talking microvolts here.
> 
> IG isn't a bandaid...it's a method for a complete grounding scheme.


 
I disagree. Youd be surprised how many systems have standing ground faults. 

If you really wanted a clean audio system try balanced 60-0-60 volt power.


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## cuba_pete

meadow said:


> I disagree. Youd be surprised how many systems have standing ground faults.
> 
> If you really wanted a clean audio system try balanced 60-0-60 volt power.


I would love to, but can't. We don't have an approved system in the gov't for that type of install, and my facility doesn't have the dough necessary.

My IG works just fine.


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## cuba_pete

Bad Electrician said:


> NOPE, and did I say NOOOOOOOO.


Then, there are other requirements (not the same as the IG):

"Classified communications cannot risk being compromised
and endangered by permitting ungrounded
static electricity discharges. Static electricity
generating equipment used in classified communications
operations will be bonded to a grounding system
*separate from other grounding systems* in accordance
with MIL-HDBK-419 and MIL-STD-188-124...to insure complete
invulnerability to intelligence countermeasures"

"Not more than two such grounding buses will be connected
by shielded conductor to one electrode below
finished grade, Grounding buses will be arranged
with a number of shielding one-wire grounding receptacles
to provide a plug-in grounding jack (telephone
type) connection for each classified unit of equipment"

Government standards get complicated. Munitions storage is even worse.


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## RIVETER

Barjack said:


> _If_ a properly installed IG (where the IG runs isolated all the way back to the service neutral) corrects these problems, isn't that evidence of other, bigger issues elsewhere in the system, and the IG is just a bandaid?


You are "spot" on. In my opinion today's romex cables are still in the dark ages of the bare neutrals. Whenever possible I use insulated egcs to come out to the devices because of the possibility of compromising the separation of the EGC from the Neutral in the outlet boxes. Just my opinion...the code should mandate it.


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## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> Government standards get complicated. Munitions storage is even worse.


Munitions Storage is a totally different animal, but typical government standards are baloney because most govn't engineers I have ever worked with and a around are copy and pasters trying to justify their job with 299 pages of specifications for replacing a light bulb.

I have worked in some of the supposedly MOST sensitive facilities we have.

From all the government agencies with acronyms for their names that take special clearances to gain access, to Telco, data, hospitals, TV, radio, recording studios, live concerts, print news and it all boils down to one thing proper installation practices.

Not saying I won't install IG's I take their money and follow specifications.

And I am not saying there is not equipment that may result in ground current. 

BUT on large projects that we have had issues ground current the IGs were messed up as well because the same electricians that grounded neutrals downstream crossed up the IG and EGCs in the panel.


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## cuba_pete

Bad Electrician said:


> Munitions Storage is a totally different animal, but typical government standards are baloney because most govn't engineers I have ever worked with and a around are copy and pasters trying to justify their job with 299 pages of specifications for replacing a light bulb.
> 
> I have worked in some of the supposedly MOST sensitive facilities we have.
> 
> From all the government agencies with acronyms for their names that take special clearances to gain access, to Telco, data, hospitals, TV, radio, recording studios, live concerts, print news and it all boils down to one thing proper installation practices.


Well, gee whiz...all of those wasted years. I am a gov't engineer...guess my time is wasted here.

BTW...I don't let just any electrician touch anything in my facility unless they actually comprehend electricity...a lot of masters get the boot...a *lot* of hacks.

Clearances help keep out the riff-raff.


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## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> Well, gee whiz...all of those wasted years. I am a gov't engineer...guess my time is wasted here.
> 
> 
> 
> And then you know very well what I posted is the truth, many, many like 99.99999% of jobs specs are copy and paste. And I read a heck of a lot of specs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearances help keep out the riff-raff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting through all the paper work, investigation and interviews that goes into a clearance has nothing to do with whether an electrician is a top of the line or not. AKA what happened in Utah.
> 
> And excluding time in trade requirements durn near anyone can study and pass a masters exam.
Click to expand...


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## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> There is no evidence that an isolated ground helps with any of that.



Well I enjoy reading your comments for one reason you don't have a clue .

Have your ever done any electrical work for Harris corporation or have you ever worked a sound studio for Disney .Or any high tech computer company like Apple .
Any place were high tech sound or stage audio systems function the normal way to isolate is IG run with regular ground or in some places separate.

Here's how it works Don you see from the first source at the start your ground that you normally run is tied into all grounds which pick up trash on the other circuits so if you separate it . It takes another path .
But if you run a isolated ground back to the source its resistance can eliminate that effect its simple trash is not on the IG ground .But most of the trash is on the regular ground .:thumbup:

So that's why they run a isolated ground and a regular ground so the trash goes away .

Yes it does work how put a scope on your circuits with no IG then put it on IG theres your proof Don 

We have always used orange colored tape on all IG grounds that's just a trade thing we do on every job .


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## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> Well I enjoy reading your comments for one reason you don't have a clue .
> 
> Have your ever done any electrical work for Harris corporation or have you ever worked a sound studio for Disney .Or any high tech computer company like Apple .
> Any place were high tech sound or stage audio systems function the normal way to isolate is IG run with regular ground or in some places separate.
> 
> Here's how it works Don you see from the first source at the start your ground that you normally run is tied into all grounds which pick up trash on the other circuits so if you separate it . It takes another path .
> But if you run a isolated ground back to the source its resistance can eliminate that effect its simple trash is not on the IG ground .But most of the trash is on the regular ground .:thumbup:
> 
> So that's why they run a isolated ground and a regular ground so the trash goes away .
> 
> Yes it does work how put a scope on your circuits with no IG then put it on IG theres your proof Don
> 
> We have always used orange colored tape on all IG grounds that's just a trade thing we do on every job .


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I know you do nice work, but stick to what you know and not to what you think you know.


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## piperunner

Bad Electrician said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> I know you do nice work, but stick to what you know and not to what you think you know.


Well I think you might not know what you think I may know 
its funny but lets talk about why a IG ground is used .

Tell me why you think a IG ground doesn't work .

Its very simple you separate your grounding conductor from the IG grounding conductor then any trash you don't want on you system is not on that circuit . Trash that's starts at the devices on your loads you don't have a clue my friend and don't ever make comments to me about electrical theory your way out of your place . Along with big John

Thanks for the comment but lets see what you know about theory .


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## Big John

I sincerely can't tell if you're trolling or if you actually are this full of yourself. Some of you guys must be real peaches to work with.


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## piperunner

Big John said:


> I sincerely can't tell if you're trolling or if you actually are this full of yourself. Some of you guys must be real peaches to work with.



Well lets say this I disagree with you on a IG and your buddies .
Any time you want to talk theory let me know seems if you run pipe they think you never did any electrical work thats generally what I get on this forum .

Or if someone disagrees its a smart comment made . what how a isolated ground works get off your high horse Big John a IG is needed maybe not in a resis job but trust me it works .

If you want to talk civil will talk if you want to be a ass that's find .


By the way iam not trolling


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## Barjack

piperunner said:


> Well lets say this I disagree with you on a IG and your buddies . Any time you want to talk theory let me know seems if you run pipe they think you never did any electrical work thats generally what I get on this forum . Or if someone disagrees its a smart comment made by what how a isolated ground works get off your high horse Big John a IG is needed maybe not in a resis job but trust me it works . If you want to talk civil will talk if you want to be a ass that's find .


You talk like your picture looks.


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## piperunner

Barjack said:


> You talk like your picture looks.


 Well were just pipe monkeys but shut you mouth no one asked you to chim in fish head .:thumbup:


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## Barjack

piperunner said:


> Well were just pipe monkeys but shut you mouth no one asked you to chim in fish head .:thumbup:


Thank you. No one asked you to participate either. 

You still have yet to explain how a properly BONDED, then GROUNDED (or maybe not) system will need to be remedied by an IG circuit to eliminate noise.


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## Big John

piperunner Today said:


> Well I enjoy reading your comments for one reason you don't have a clue....





piperunner Today said:


> ...If you want to talk civil will talk if you want to be a ass that's fine....


 Real impressive. I'm definitely convinced you can contribute intelligently to this discussion.


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## Bad Electrician

Big John said:


> Real impressive. I'm definitely convinced you can contribute intelligently to this discussion.


Read his misunderstanding of the purpose of ground rods. He is an assembler and a durn good one by the pictures he post but he refuses to even admit that all his years in the trade and he still has a misunderstanding of all aspects of grounding he is clueless and hardly worth wasting the time trying to educate, because he does not want to learn.

And I have worked for Disney (hired because they had power quality issues several other contractors could not resolve) and a slew companies with sensitive electronic equipment as I have previously noted.


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## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> I would love to, but can't. We don't have an approved system in the gov't for that type of install, and my facility doesn't have the dough necessary.
> 
> My IG works just fine.


Walter Reed, Bethesda Navy Medical, National Institute of Health, utilize them to to name a few,


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## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well I enjoy reading your comments for one reason you don't have a clue .
> 
> Have your ever done any electrical work for Harris corporation or have you ever worked a sound studio for Disney .Or any high tech computer company like Apple .
> Any place were high tech sound or stage audio systems function the normal way to isolate is IG run with regular ground or in some places separate.
> 
> Here's how it works Don you see from the first source at the start your ground that you normally run is tied into all grounds which pick up trash on the other circuits so if you separate it . It takes another path .
> But if you run a isolated ground back to the source its resistance can eliminate that effect its simple trash is not on the IG ground .But most of the trash is on the regular ground .:thumbup:
> 
> So that's why they run a isolated ground and a regular ground so the trash goes away .
> 
> Yes it does work how put a scope on your circuits with no IG then put it on IG theres your proof Don
> 
> We have always used orange colored tape on all IG grounds that's just a trade thing we do on every job .


I haven't seen a job that where the specs called for IGs in the last 20 years. It had some purpose when the data circuits used a conductor that was connected to ground at multiple locations, but that is not very common any more.


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## piperunner

Barjack said:


> Thank you. No one asked you to participate either.
> 
> You still have yet to explain how a properly BONDED, then GROUNDED (or maybe not) system will need to be remedied by an IG circuit to eliminate noise.


Well yes I don't talk or spell good it takes me a long time to think don't rush me .

Lets see common mode trash on your line do to computers or just about anything electronic . Most electrical installs are not done correctly anyway 
if not installed the right way it doesn't work.

If your using conduit for your SG your picking up every mode of trash that's on your system from the devices plugged into your system . 

So you run a IG ground to limit it on that circuit by not sharing the trash .
So its not all connected to one common ground system and maybe its isolated from all the trash of the system . This way that isolated device can just make its own trash and that's a good thing . 

Metal Conduit used as SG not good for clean power its only good for a fault .

If you want the best isolation install a transformer locally for your IG devices which need isolation but in close not ten miles away is best length wise to be with in 100 feet or less .
Don't use the conduit for your SG run a insulated green SG and run a IG with SG Twisted branch at short distances. Nothing over 100 feet long 
keep it tight . Its called cancel the unwanted trash in the audio world .
Stranded wire only to devices don't have anything on any IG receptacle but 
the same electronic equipment. Meaning don't mixed things up all computers on that circuit only nothing else . Some electronic devices can be a problem when on the same circuit like printers copy machines and the like put them on another circuit . Not on the same IG system find another circuit .

We install a separate SG a separate IG for each dedicated device with twisted branch wiring installed inside conduit . 

You run your IG back to the source that's the transformer 208/120 volt were it started . keep it on a separate ground bar in panel isolated from the SG grounds fairly simple . I know you know this 
Yes its connected to the same ground at source but the wire has resistance and that keeps the other trash from on the SG out .
That's the idea its isolated !


You get trash from electronic equipment


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## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> You get trash from electronic equipment


When electronic equipment gets old it should not be trashed, Think RECYCLE.


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## piperunner

Bad Electrician said:


> When electronic equipment gets old it should not be trashed, Think RECYCLE.


Well great comment iam impressed lets talk go ahead and tell me why its incorrect on the IG ground since you and Big John , Don think its not needed 

Every job we do requires IG grounds on computer/ data and the like its written in the specs I cant see how Don can say he hasn't seen that in his specs for 20 years .
Personally I think he's full of it when I disagree with him which is 99% of the time. Don don't take it the wrong way I know your a good electrician but get real electronics is not a power system theres lots of issues we don't see.

Electrical engineers yes sometimes they make mistakes but its usually things like gear wont fit in the room or a clerical error on the drawings . I have never seen one that didn't know what he was doing trust me .
Now IG ,s can be bad news if its not installed correctly yes I agree with that and in some grounding systems you can get stray current traveling around your system which is bad news . That's due to data shields grounded on both ends or equipment that has a bad connection to the ground plane shielded case of itself which is there to dissipate the stray trash on the system .Or grounding shields on the wrong side which has the opposite effect for its purpose
Capacitive coupling on data cables and voltage induced on grounds lots of stuff can be a issue boys.

Plus its at another frequency its not at 60 or 120 cycles it can be much higher which now effects the voltage of the stray current flow now a bad connection can jump over between metal points which changes its frequency which puts more trash on the line .
Unbalanced or incorrect grounds inside conduit effects this my friends if you just pull a IG into a conduit and don't care how it is installed .
Example running a IG free not twisted or triplexed it can pick up induced current which is bad from conductors in that raceway . 

To me the best way to install a IG having its own source and nothing in that panel can be installed in it but the IG stuff related to that circuit only .



But the panel schedule may not reflect that on projects so yes the engineer of record is wrong. In some cases a electrician adds to that panel non IG power not good keep it separate it might work .

Or so called electrical maintance guys who know everything about electrical work and tell construction electricians we are just pipe monkeys and cant spell correctly screw it up .

Funny but who wires the building before you service folks move in did you ever think of that we do pipe monkeys we run the pipe pull the wire and wire up all the controls . Seems to me we were there before you guys wonder how it got done with out you .

Now if you guys can comment with theory on IG grounding lets talk !


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## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> You run your IG back to the source that's the transformer 208/120 volt were it started . keep it on a separate ground bar in panel isolated from the SG grounds fairly simple .


We rarely see this in older IG installs Pipe dude....~CS~


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## piperunner

chicken steve said:


> We rarely see this in older IG installs Pipe dude....~CS~



Well that's why most electricians get the mind set it doesn't work if your running it back to the main service its not good .
It must be short distance to have any effect .


Iam on a new project now its lots of computers lots of high tech stuff lots of systems to keep out bugs . So its all UPS IG back up and more back up . They even install faraday cages in the walls in this building what can I say but it works in new construction .


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## chicken steve

Well there's obviously a lot of thought going into the project you're on Pipe dude. 

Being i was around for the big IG pitch decades ago, i didn't necessarily disagree with the theory. 

But we have seen it fall out of favor too

Lots of reasons why, least of all that many installs were retro's only made back to the closest sub panel.

I often thought much of it was a band aid at best, where true IG would mean an iso-xformer , and then metal jacket and/or pipe enclosures for any possible induction

~CS~


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## Bad Electrician

Based on the picture I bet there are a lot of vertical EMT runs.

There is nothing wrong with installing an IG, and if it is in the specs you better install it. The issue here is the total misunderstanding of what an IG does or does not do and the fact that some in our trade not only refuse to open their eyes, but the fact they propagate this misinformation to the new generation of electricians.

Read his ground rod post and you will want to run you head into the wall. That someone with this little understanding of something he thinks he knows so much about would be laughable except as noted he is exposed to apprentices.


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## Big John

piperunner said:


> Well great comment iam impressed lets talk go ahead and tell me why its incorrect on the IG ground since you and Big John , Don think its not needed...


 You're the proponent, the obligation is on you to explain their efficacy, and since there's no definition in the IEEE dictionary for "trash on the ground" you're gonna have to do a lot better than that.

I don't like IGs because many people can't adequately explain what they should do or how to correctly install them. How can someone argue that something is beneficial without even knowing what it does?

I don't like IGs because I've seen many installed improperly and yet the "sensitive" equipment plugged into them was still functioning fine and had been for years. How can someone argue they're necessary when stuff still works fine without them?

I don't like IGs because since people don't understand their function, I've seen a properly installed IG cause a fire: It came from a special "clean" panel hundreds of feet away, and was right next to a normal receptacle. As a result there was a voltage drop between the "clean" ground and the normal ground. When an RS-232 cable was connected between them it shunted ground current until it melted and starting smoking.

I'm sure there are times when ground loop current exists that would interfere with equipment function, and IGs might solve that. But I would bet that's applicable for a tiny fraction of the equipment where these are spec'd, which makes the rest of the them just worthless boilerplate requirements.


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## chicken steve

IMHO the whole theory is mighty hard to construct in a physical reality where there are _multiple _xformers in a structure with _multiple _GEC's , creating multiple noodles interfacing multiple utilites.....~CS~


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## Bad Electrician

John

We were called into a mega-church, 2500 seats, recording studio produced over a 1000 CDs at the end of every service for sale, TV broadcast, huge choir and PA system. And they had power problems out the ting yang. Every circuit specified IG.

They had several neutral grounding issues and and all the IG system was a mess, crossed IG's and EGC's. Pia to fix.


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## Big John

Did you end up leaving the IG system in place? How much of their difficulty was due to objectionable neutral current?


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## Bad Electrician

Big John said:


> Did you end up leaving the IG system in place? How much of their difficulty was due to objectionable neutral current?


It was all neutral current, neutrals from separate transformers tied in junction boxes, generator grounded with 3 pole ATS's, many branch circuit neutrals shorted to ground. We corrected all the neutral issues and what we could of the cross connected EGC/IG's where feasible, but in many cases they used the same color green in EMT and trying to fix that would be near impossible. Everything was grounded but the IG was not IG. Which is OK.


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## piperunner

Well Big John I thought you understood what trash was let me say common mode & normal mode noise is that better .

All computers cause this noise which is voltage and current yes you can burn up a data cable because there all inter connected between each other at the router or main frame connections. 

The data cable cant handle it so it burns up .

But it goes back to the subject of ground it wants a point of reference if you don't have a good ground point it travels into your data lines .

Noise in my own words is a induced voltage/ current in your ground and data lines by unequal potential in system it maybe in the neutral or the ground lines .
When neutral ground voltages are unbalanced. Which is the result of computers which internally filters this trash from its own power supply to ground plus if you have 3000 computers dumping into ground you need to connect these correctly to system .

Any voltage difference on data lines which are actually connected by a ground loop in any system if that loop is not installed correctly it will burn.
That's why we use a IG to keep it off the regular SG grounding line which would be hundred times more emissions were you could have a major data loss or a crash on the system .

That IG even if connected to same ground reference at service or first source has a point of return which is some what free of other mode inputs on the system .

And by the way any data cable can burn up even with a regular SG its how you connect it up and stray voltage/ currents can cause it on the data lines.

The reason they burn better with a IG is because it cant find another path like with a SG so yes when its not connected correctly a IG will do damage faster . But its rare to happen if its done the right way boys .


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## piperunner

chicken steve said:


> IMHO the whole theory is mighty hard to construct in a physical reality where there are _multiple _xformers in a structure with _multiple _GEC's , creating multiple noodles interfacing multiple utilites.....~CS~


 Well I agree with that but also if your grounding system is designed correctly its rare . I guess if it didn't work with a IG then we better tell Bill Gates to change all his IG grounds back to the old way with a regular SG grounding system and replace all his UPS installed equipment to any panel just like Bad electrician does in his Church job .:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

I can't touch an GEC to an MBJ downtown w/o creating an arc Pipe dude, it's all metallic municipal h20. 

And the closer we get to a substation the less of a* GEC *and more of a *noodle *said GEC really is. 

And that's_ just _the resi scene , this MEN_ (multiple earthed noodles)_ philosophy we have _(which i'm under the impression euro EE's think nuts) _poses a nearly impossible iso-EGC situation to mitigate

Short version, unless you own a poco or SDS, the IG theory may be valid, but it's practical application is more costly than point of use power conditioning.


~CS~


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> ...And replace all his UPS installed equipment to any panel just like Bad electrician does in his Church job .:laughing:


If you understood how you come across when you type stuff like this, I bet you would stop doing it.


----------



## piperunner

chicken steve said:


> I can't touch an GEC to an MBJ downtown w/o creating an arc Pipe dude, it's all metallic municipal h20.
> 
> And the closer we get to a substation the less of a* GEC *and more of a *noodle *said GEC really is.
> 
> And that's_ just _the resi scene , this MEN_ (multiple earthed noodles)_ philosophy we have _(which i'm under the impression euro EE's think nuts) _poses a nearly impossible iso-EGC situation to mitigate
> 
> Short version, unless you own a poco or SDS, the IG theory may be valid, but it's practical application is more costly than point of use power conditioning.
> 
> 
> ~CS~


 Well I agree with that funny but some jobs are not you everyday install a walk out the door .

You can do it but at a cost which is design into the project .:thumbup:


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> If you understood how you come across when you type stuff like this, I bet you would stop doing it.


 

Well sorry but I started work in the 11th grade as a electrician never could read or write. It was more important to make money back then now I understand that in order to post on this forum I should have stayed in school.

How to use a IG that actually works 100% typical government defense contractor high tech stuff they pay we do the work new construction .Its in the specs they design it and satellite's do ya think they know how it works .
If I come across to harsh its that new jersey in me Johnny .

IG grounds for all data communications systems .

UPS system ahead of IG grounds .

Capacitor shunts to ground .

Online power filters on ac power .

Choke coils on both grounds on AC line .

TVSS on all panels .

Snubbers .

Trust me it works no burnt cables no common mode issues its real and it works fine .


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> Well sorry but I started work in the 11th grade as a electrician never could read or write. It was more important to make money back then now I understand that in order to post on this forum I should have stayed in school....


 That has nothing to do with anything.

You keep coming into these threads and talking down to people. It's especially ridiculous when you do it to guys who are obviously extremely knowledgeable on a subject.

Just stop talking down to folks. It makes you look bad.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Forum quotes from a gentleman who has written the grounding standards for MCI, WorldCom, Alltel, and was a contributing author of IEEE Emerald book, Bellcore TRW-000-295, and ANSI T1.333-2001. 



> To make IG beneficial, they have to be on a single dedicated circuit, installed in conduit, the only circuit in the raceway from origination to the equipment end, use a manufactured cable made for IG, and used on stand alone equipment not interconnected to anything.
> 
> I cannot recall any installation that meets all that criteria. The only situation I can think of would be a home A/V or PC system where all the components are powered from a duplex or quad receptacle. If you were to install two dedicated IG circuits and interconnect the equipment, like you would in a data processing environment, you have compromised the IG system period.





> IG cannot possibly reduce common-mode noise, there are no active or passive circuits. If there is garbage at the input, it passes straight through to the output. Its only possible use is preventing common-mode noise from entering a circuit and the effects range from no effect, worse effect, or desired effect. There is an excellent way to reduce or remove common-mode noise, a separately derived system like a transformer or dual conversion UPS
> 
> The text book definition of Common-Mode Noise is:
> The noise voltage that appears equally and in phase from each current-carrying conductor to ground.





> A dual conversion UPS is absolutely the ultimate means of cleaning up common-mode noise (assuming true sine-wave type) and any other PQ problems you can shake a stick at. What rubbish they are feeding you? An extremely close second place finisher with reference to common-mode noise is an isolation transformer. In fact they are so close in (CMR) perfomance it doesn't matter which one you use. The only difference is the UPS will give you backup capability in the event of a power failure, brownout, or other such interuptions. A transformer cannot do that.
> 
> If cost is the major concern, then the winner is an isolation transformer. Go back and read my post, this is what I have been trying to tell you all along. FWIW the dual conversion UPS already has the isolation transformer built into it on the output.


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> That has nothing to do with anything.
> 
> You keep coming into these threads and talking down to people. It's especially ridiculous when you do it to guys who are obviously extremely knowledgeable on a subject.
> 
> Just stop talking down to folks. It makes you look bad.


Well if any poster treats me with respect ill treat them the same but bottom line I never had a good rep with Don and Bad Electrician started with his mouth so as you thanked him you must be in agreement .
John ive been here for a long time we don't agree you never comment directly to me so what do you want me to say . Its a forum get over my comments grow up suck it in. I really don't care how I look do you read other post or do you just pick mine I just read a few today that were the dumbest posts I have ever witnessed . And it wasn't the spelling .



Iam not trying to impress you or showing off but don't tell me I don't know anything but pipe bending .
You maybe be a great electrician John ive read your posts yes you have a good background but don't tell me you don't understand what I write that's bull and you know it .

When a guy comes on and says a IG doesn't work or a IG is useless he is wrong and I disagree if you don't like that or anyone on this forum that's to bad if you don't understand how it works Ill explain it the best way I can .

But its fair to say if you don't understand what I say you don't understand the subject but that's my thoughts .
:thumbsup:


----------



## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Forum quotes from a gentleman who has written the grounding standards for MCI, WorldCom, Alltel, and was a contributing author of IEEE Emerald book, Bellcore TRW-000-295, and ANSI T1.333-2001.


 Well thanks Don but I think I said all that from the beginning .:thumbup:


----------



## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> Well if any poster treats me with respect ill treat them the same but bottom line I never had a good rep with Don and Bad Electrician started with his mouth so as you thanked him you must be in agreement .
> you know it .
> :


I am not hear to ague with you and your supreme arrogance was evident by your less than friendly post early on, you post crap, know nothing about many topics you try to appear knowledgable about and then attack posters that attempt to point you in the right directions then cry foul.

So in an effort to avoid further disagreements keep posting your misinformation, I should have realized you lack of knowledge does not keep you from posting myths.

Good luck in being wrong again:thumbsup:


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well thanks Don but I think I said all that from the beginning .:thumbup:


Really?? He is basically saying that IG circuits are worthless.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Here is another quote from him.


> So some 50 years ago a bunch of engineers came up with the idea of a Isolated Ground Receptacle, or the forth wire in a standard 120 VAC circuit. It was magic so most thought. In reality an IGR has 3 outcomes, and what follows is *listed in order of what happens*.
> 
> 1. Nothing
> 2. Makes the problem worse.
> 3. Desired effect.
> 
> However someone who really knows what they are doing will not use any IGR as we have a much more effective means at our disposal. We create a new reference ground point near where we need and use it. How you ask? Simple we install a Isolation Transformer with a new N-G bond point. A Isolation transformer even a dry one gives us at least 60 dB of common mode noise rejection isolating the output from everything. Use a true isolation transformer like farromagnetic resonator and we can get 140 dB of common mode noise rejection. FWIW 60 dB = 10,000,000 : 1 or reduces 10 million volts to 1 volt, 140 dB is 1,000,000,000,000,000 : 1 rejection.


----------



## chicken steve

> 1. Nothing
> 2. Makes the problem worse.
> 3. Desired effect.


I'd like to see any EC make a living from that

~CS~


----------



## MTW

piperunner said:


> Well I think you might not know what you think I may know
> its funny but lets talk about why a IG ground is used .
> 
> Tell me why you think a IG ground doesn't work .
> 
> Its very simple you separate your grounding conductor from the IG grounding conductor then any trash you don't want on you system is not on that circuit . Trash that's starts at the devices on your loads you don't have a clue my friend and don't ever make comments to me about electrical theory your way out of your place . Along with big John
> 
> Thanks for the comment but lets see what you know about theory .


This is how it works with Piperunner:

Piperunner disagrees with long accepted industry standard practices and norms. 

Respected, knowledgeable industry experts refute Piperunners error with basic electrical theory. 

Piperunners digs in his heels and continues to be wrong. :laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

One is never totally isolated from a GEC in any given structure.

~CS~


----------



## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Really?? He is basically saying that IG circuits are worthless.


Well read it Don he said if you just install it with the IG ground wire alone its no good it doesn't work .

But read his last statement he said if you install it with a isolation type transformer which we do with a UPS and keep it separate from other non IG loads its fine but at a cost . 

Any thing can be filtered out from input to output problem solved !


Don your not reading my post this is how it works were they actually isolate the ground from noise .

We install it with UPS isolation transformer and keep the load separate from sharing non IG loads one panel dedicated to IG loads . A Low pass filter with snobbur every panel gets TVSS for transits . We even put chokes on the IG and SG grounds this is how we do it in Florida at Harris corp .
I guess if you have the dollars and the engineering in a design you can over come what a single IG ground wire in a home cant do .
So now what Don are you going to tell me you cant make a IG work because someone wrote that years ago and its all about a residential install .:laughing:

Don we do that already thanks


----------



## chicken steve

I'll wager a power conditioner is cheaper than that Iso Xfomer, and comes with a better warranty Pipe dude.......~CS~


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well read it Don he said if you just install it with the IG ground wire alone its no good it doesn't work .
> 
> But read his last statement he said if you install it with a isolation type transformer which we do with a UPS and keep it separate from other non IG loads its fine but at a cost .
> 
> Any thing can be filtered out from input to output problem solved !
> 
> 
> Don your not reading my post this is how it works were they actually isolate the ground from noise .
> 
> We install it with UPS isolation transformer and keep the load separate from sharing non IG loads one panel dedicated to IG loads . A Low pass filter with snobbur every panel gets TVSS for transits . We even put chokes on the IG and SG grounds this is how we do it in Florida at Harris corp .
> I guess if you have the dollars and the engineering in a design you can over come what a single IG ground wire in a home cant do .
> So now what Don are you going to tell me you cant make a IG work because someone wrote that years ago and its all about a residential install .:laughing:
> 
> Don we do that already thanks


He never has suggested the use of an isolated ground conductor on the output of the UPS of the transformer. 
He designs this stuff for a living. He has written the books. I will take what he says over anything you say any day of the week. 

By the way, what code provision permits a choke on the isolated grounding conductor? That is the safety ground for the equipment connected to the IG conductor and it must be able to carry enough current to quickly cause the OCPD to open the circuit in the event of a fault, just like any other EGC.


----------



## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> He never has suggested the use of an isolated ground conductor on the output of the UPS of the transformer.
> He designs this stuff for a living. He has written the books. I will take what he says over anything you say any day of the week.
> 
> By the way, what code provision permits a choke on the isolated grounding conductor? That is the safety ground for the equipment connected to the IG conductor and it must be able to carry enough current to quickly cause the OCPD to open the circuit in the event of a fault, just like any other EGC.


 Well in your post 61 last quote he said isolation transformer clearly .

As far as the choke coils what do you think most freq drives have ahead of there input to limit back feed on the AC power system .
That's what they call reactors commonly used everyday .

At 120 cycles it has no effect on the breaker tripping so whats your point first off if what you think is correct then what your telling me is the the NEC code book is wrong and everything about a IG needs to be removed out of the code book .


Funny part is a simple capacitor/diode and coil can filter out unwanted noises and most electronic equipment today has it already installed .

Plus most have there own protection built internally to limit the common mode issues .


What your reading is old out of date stuff .:laughing:


----------



## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> Well in your post 61 last quote he said isolation transformer clearly .
> 
> As far as the choke coils what do you think most freq drives have ahead of there input to limit back feed on the AC power system .
> That's what they call reactors commonly used everyday.


This has nothing to do with this discussion.

Unfortunately you keep mixing apples and oranges





> What your reading is old out of date stuff .:laughing:


:yawn:


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well in your post 61 last quote he said isolation transformer clearly .


Yes it says isolation transformer, but it does not suggest that you use an IG with that transformer.


> As far as the choke coils what do you think most freq drives have ahead of there input to limit back feed on the AC power system .
> That's what they call reactors commonly used everyday .


Those are not on the EGC. 


> At 120 cycles it has no effect on the breaker tripping so whats your point first off if what you think is correct then what your telling me is the the NEC code book is wrong and everything about a IG needs to be removed out of the code book .


I asked for the code rule that permits the use of a choke on the EGC. You have not provided that. 
The code is a safety code. The installation of an IG per the rules found in the NEC does not decrease the safety. There are people who use them, and as long as they are used, the code needs to tell you how they can safely be used. These rules were required because electronic equipment manufacturers were requiring truly isolated grounding systems. That is system with no tie to the electrical grounding system. That is a serious safety hazard and the code rules are intended to prevent that hazard.


> Funny part is a simple capacitor/diode and coil can filter out unwanted noises and most electronic equipment today has it already installed .
> 
> Plus most have there own protection built internally to limit the common mode issues .


That has nothing to do with the use of isolated grounding systems.


> What your reading is old out of date stuff .:laughing:


No, the suggestion that IG are useful or required for modern electronic systems is what is out of date.


----------



## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Yes it says isolation transformer, but it does not suggest that you use an IG with that transformer.
> Those are not on the EGC.
> 
> I asked for the code rule that permits the use of a choke on the EGC. You have not provided that.
> The code is a safety code. The installation of an IG per the rules found in the NEC does not decrease the safety. There are people who use them, and as long as they are used, the code needs to tell you how they can safely be used. These rules were required because electronic equipment manufacturers were requiring truly isolated grounding systems. That is system with no tie to the electrical grounding system. That is a serious safety hazard and the code rules are intended to prevent that hazard.
> That has nothing to do with the use of isolated grounding systems.
> No, the suggestion that IG are useful or required for modern electronic systems is what is out of date.


Well you know there is no code rule but every electronic device has a ferrite or a choke coil internally for that purpose to smooth ripple stop or limit back feeds and improve the DC power supply primary input . 

Heres what we need to do if you take the SG ground and install a coil inline and also install a coil inline on the IG ground and put these coils next to one another side by side it would cancel out the effects of stray voltage on the grounds which would cancel out the common mode noise no current flow on grounds a filter to pass it to ground which is already built into any computer or high tech devices today would also be needed for stray voltage online but install it on the branch circuit .

So a SG is a ground and a IG is a ground only difference is the IG is up stream from all connections that could add to the noise issue isolated by itself . Resistance at what ever impedance limits current that or drops that voltage on the IG .
To me that works or helps if it was a regular SG the voltage would be unbalanced between and a lower voltage but a higher current there's too many points of connections so its not balanced. 
Sorry Don I don't just read articles by so called experts I look for solutions which are not what the code book may see as safe whats safe about a ground as far as IG goes its unsafe it can make a data cable burn if one installs the data cable wrong so is that safe .

Why is a IG in the code book it needs to be removed or corrected I see a up date in 20 years its funny but were so behind the times with the NEC its a joke .


----------



## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> Why is a IG in the code book it needs to be removed or corrected I see a up date in 20 years its funny but were so behind the times with the NEC its a joke .


The NEC does not require it, it does not say anything about if it works or doesn't it says if used you may.......

It seriously seems you are googling reading and posting as you go and are mixing up thoughts or articles. In any case you have missed the boat on several concepts in this thread which seems to be the norm for you in regards to grounding. You do nice pipe work though.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well you know there is no code rule but every electronic device has a ferrite or a choke coil internally for that purpose to smooth ripple stop or limit back feeds and improve the DC power supply primary input .
> 
> Heres what we need to do if you take the SG ground and install a coil inline and also install a coil inline on the IG ground and put these coils next to one another side by side it would cancel out the effects of stray voltage on the grounds which would cancel out the common mode noise no current flow on grounds a filter to pass it to ground which is already built into any computer or high tech devices today would also be needed for stray voltage online but install it on the branch circuit .


 What is in the equipment is not subject to the rules of the NEC. The EGC and the Isolated Grounding conductor run with the power conductors are both safety grounds and there is no provision that would let you install a choke or other impedance device on these conductors. Any impedance would increase the touch potential to other objects in the event of a ground fault. This elevated touch potential would exist until the fault is cleared. Any increased impedance in the fault clearing path means it will take longer before the fault is cleared.



> ... I look for solutions which are not what the code book may see as safe whats safe about a ground as far as IG goes its unsafe it can make a data cable burn if one installs the data cable wrong so is that safe .
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were saying that we need to install IGs, now you are telling us that they are not safe???
> 
> 
> 
> Why is a IG in the code book it needs to be removed or corrected I see a up date in 20 years its funny but were so behind the times with the NEC its a joke .
> 
> 
> 
> Again I thought you said we needed IGs. The code does not require the use of IGs, it just provides the rules that need to be followed if you install one.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> ...
> Sorry Don I don't just read articles by so called experts ...


But you want us to accept what you say...aren't you just another "so called expert"??


----------



## Bad Electrician

MTW said:


> This is how it works with Piperunner:
> 
> Piperunner disagrees with long accepted industry standard practices and norms.
> 
> Respected, knowledgeable industry experts refute Piperunners error with basic electrical theory.
> 
> Piperunners digs in his heels and continues to be wrong. :laughing:


Accuses others of calling him names when actually he threw the first volley.

Then claims what someone was posting all along was his position but you are too stupid to understand, taking the opposite stance from his first post.


----------



## cuba_pete

*no no no...*



Bad Electrician said:


> cuba_pete said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then you know very well what I posted is the truth
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, just the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting through all the paper work, investigation and interviews that goes into a clearance has nothing to do with whether an electrician is a top of the line or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, no, no...not what I meant. I meant that before any contractor or personnel who do not work in my facility even come through the door I will know about it. I will be there from nuts to bolts to make sure they don't do it wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And excluding time in trade requirements durn near anyone can study and pass a masters exam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed.
Click to expand...


----------



## cuba_pete

Barjack said:


> Thank you. No one asked you to participate either.
> 
> You still have yet to explain how a properly BONDED, then GROUNDED (or maybe not) system will need to be remedied by an IG circuit to eliminate noise.


You should have gotten proper schooling on your way. I don't think you can get a good theory lesson on IG's from a forum.

It's in the NEC...isn't that good enough for you? Weren't you tested and approved on the NEC? Did you fake it through any questions about IG?

Can you install an IG effectively if you don't understand its merits?

Could anyone do the job correctly...or just to code? Remember...those are just the bare minimums!


----------



## cuba_pete

Bad Electrician said:


> Walter Reed, Bethesda Navy Medical, National Institute of Health, utilize them to to name a few,


By "we" I meant a specific SPAWAR P-code.

I don't fall under a health program. That's a totally different purposing of an IG.


----------



## cuba_pete

*Exactly!*



don_resqcapt19 said:


> I haven't seen a job that where the specs called for IGs in the last 20 years. It had some purpose when the data circuits used a conductor that was connected to ground at multiple locations, but that is not very common any more.


The systems I work on were installed very long ago. I have a power supply system which was commissioned in 1972. The system cannot be changed lest we spend billions of dollars for tearout and replacement.

We cannot change our methods mid-stream. The circulating currents kill us.


----------



## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> The systems I work on were installed very long ago. I have a power supply system which was commissioned in 1972. The system cannot be changed lest we spend billions of dollars for tearout and replacement.
> 
> We cannot change our methods mid-stream. The circulating currents kill us.


Then you need to do maintenance and testing to isolate the sources of the improperly grounded neutrals.

Unless of course you are using 1970 equipment as well, then you need to find who in your group upset congress and reinstate all that cut funding.


----------



## Bad Electrician

cuba_pete said:


> Bad Electrician said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad Electrician said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cuba_pete*
> _
> And then you know very well what I posted is the truth_
> 
> Nope, just the opposite.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> You are telling the majority of government specs are not copy and paste loaded with divisions that often have nothing to do with the project, OR are you telling me your specs don't?
> 
> I'd believe your spec's are pertinent to the project. But others engineers in the federal system are not full of copy and paste, items that do not pertain to the project, items that are way over the top, request to follow standards the writer does not understand.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Big John

We do government work, and we often have to go through and revise the scopes and resubmit them with our quote, because the methods and materials have changed so much since the original specs were written in 1972 that it doesn't make sense to do the work in the manner requested.


----------



## Bad Electrician

Big John said:


> We do government work, and we often have to go through and revise the scopes and resubmit them with our quote, because the methods and materials have changed so much since the original specs were written in 1972 that it doesn't make sense to do the work in the manner requested.


Our biggest laughs was and still is a government specification in the mid-80's that required the switchgear in a VERY critical facility to be waxed with two coats of a DuPont XXXX wax, the EC hired us to do all the testing and waxing of the equipment.

In the waxing portion of the specification we asked for a deviation from the requirement for the specific DuPont product and the engineer did not want to waive the spec saying in the years he had been with the government there was never an issues, what was our problem. So we had to explain that DuPont informed us this particular product had not been manufactured since 1952 and any of their newer products would be far superior to this no longer produced wax.

3 years later we go back to this site for an emergency call the UPS had crashed due to battery issues, hey were not maintaining the batteries, and excessive corrosion had lead to an open battery connection during a discharge. 

I took the apprentice in to show him the switchboard and wax or no wax the sprinkler pipe dripping on the board had resulted in rust and who knows what future problems inside the enclosure. 

We all have a vested interest in over written or wrongly written specs and no follow up maintenance, as it is OUR MONEY being wasted.


----------



## cuba_pete

*reference(s)*



Bad Electrician said:


> ...We all have a vested interest in over written or wrongly written specs and no follow up maintenance, as it is OUR MONEY being wasted.


I have gone back a re-read all of the posts for some clarity, then pulled my handy-dandy Emerald book from the shelf.

From the get-go, I saw a lot of common language in the posts against IG's which was very similar to the negative language in the book. A problem I have with that, is that the book is referring to _improper_ IG installations (re: 8.5.2.3) which _ignore_ the NEC. Chapter 8 delves into the options regarding IG's and has recommended practices...all of which are aligned with the NEC.

Without regurgitating the book ad-nauseum, I highly recommend it as a bit of light reading...it's very high level so light is what it really is...not much engineering, just information.

The isolated bonding, isolated grounding, signal reference grid, etc. methodologies described in the book are precisely the methods which I employ now. The same methods have been employed by facilities operating as such for decades (that's not to say it cannot be done better with properly installed newer equipment, but does show a long history of engineering practices _proved_ over time).

Point-of-fact; I have more than 25 SDS' operating in my facility (~65,000 sq. ft.) which are depicted per figure 8-18 of IEEE Std 1100-1999, pg. 323. This does not count a 500 kVA APC Symmetra UPS (since that was brought into the discussion earlier).

The installation methods are simple, tried, and true (Re: B.E. Law, _System Grounding Philosophy_; F.M. Morrell, _Naval Facility Grounding -New Design Concepts and Guidelines)_. It may be a little more costly per installation, but in the long run pays back large dividends by providing precise, clean signals for processing and analysis. (Re: IEEE Std 1100-1999, para 8.5.4.5 Single-point and multipoint grounding.)

Emerald para 8.6 is also fully implemented (with current applicable references) in my facility, and monitored daily.

BTW, *I* cannot go back to the manufacturer for most of my equipment, since the mfr. for some of it has been out of business for over 30 years. Like I said before...it would be hugely cost prohibitive to back-fit my facility...we're talking hundreds of millions which would be compounded by each facility, tallying well over a billion dollars. We've done the cost studies, so we already know this.

The alternative is to operate it in place until it dies, at which point newer systems would be put into place which do not require systematic IG measures (think optical isolation).

p.s., another BTW...we use NPFA-70 2011, even though we are federal. I will be going to 2014 when I finally finish reading the applicable updates. Before I took this particular job a few years ago, the NEC was a passing fancy to the responsible parties. I _am_ making it right, so to speak.


----------



## piperunner

Well Cuba Pete

Most of these guys talk but they haven't even actually been there how do I know this.
Show us you big jobs they never can and never will what I see is romex photos or some old remodel of a building from 1900.
As to Bad Electrician that name fits you perfect lets see your big jobs post some photos . Don't tell me you cant post them its secret that's bull.:no:

And you have never read specs in your life until you work the space coast once tell a NASA engineer about why you think there designed IG wont work .That UPS with transformer cant eliminate noises or clean up power to there systems and isolate it from other branch circuits.


They read the code book they read posts and that's how they get there experience plus Don comes over from MH and copy& pastes old post from the other forum which they have aready talked about years ago .:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

Does the grounding icon Soares have a stance on IG's? ~CS~


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> ...
> They read the code book they read posts and that's how they get there experience plus Don comes over from MH and copy& pastes old post from the other forum which they have aready talked about years ago .:laughing:


You have no idea of what my experience may be and I have no idea what yours is. 

I quoted from a person who was and still is directly involved in the design of these types of systems and did in fact work on the IEEE group that wrote the Emerald Book. He also wrote the standards covering these types of installations for two telecom companies.

I will take his opinion over anything I see posted here, no matter who posts it.


----------



## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> You have no idea of what my experience may be and I have no idea what yours is.
> 
> I quoted from a person who was and still is directly involved in the design of these types of systems and did in fact work on the IEEE group that wrote the Emerald Book. He also wrote the standards covering these types of installations for two telecom companies.
> 
> I will take his opinion over anything I see posted here, no matter who posts it.


 
Well thanks Don yes I know you spend most of your time on multiple forums .
And that's his opinion which is great but I don't agree with it or you .

You cant tell me a UPS isolation type IG system that its main purpose is to just supply power to that isolated area alone is not a isolated system .

And eliminates the trash picked up by other general grounding on other branch circuits all sharing a common grounding system. 

Its up stream and isolated its only issue is itself and its com mode trash .

Not all the com mode trash of the building .


What hes writing about is general work were not talking about a common job were talking about a multi million dollar system inside a building with a real grounding system . So don't tell me you cant use a IG correctly .









Not a pizza hut job or a 7 -11 or home Depo .:thumbup:


----------



## Big John

The part I haven't heard addressed in any of this nonsense is just how any "trash" or "common mode noise" or anything else on an equipment ground _actually messes up _any equipment?

Because short of very severe current flow in ground loops or instrumentation shields, I have never seen a normal equipment ground mess anything up. Arguing about what it does still doesn't address whether it's necessary.


----------



## chicken steve

I'm confused

I just can't see where subscribing to MEN, and isolation works out 

~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician

Big John said:


> The part I haven't heard addressed in any of this nonsense is just how any "trash" or "common mode noise" or anything else on an equipment ground _actually messes up _any equipment?
> 
> Because short of very severe current flow in ground loops or instrumentation shields, I have never seen a normal equipment ground mess anything up. Arguing about what it does still doesn't address whether it's necessary.


In the days of CRT's there was an issue with EMF causing in screen shake but an IG would not correct that.

There is NOTHING wrong with installing an IG (though it is a waste of copper) and in Cuba's case I understand why he would not install a system that wasn't IG. If he did and there was a neutral ground issue, as is typical in lieu of solving the problem with a grounded neutral, his butt would be on the line for not installing a system that covers up grounding issues but does not address the source.

Pipe - He is clueless, his post are full of copy and paste from google searches he does, he does not mix apples and oranges he is mixing bolts and grass and says he is getting pizza. The shame of this is not that he installs IG's but that his misunderstanding of grounding is pushed on young helpers and apprentices giving them a poor start in the trade.


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> The part I haven't heard addressed in any of this nonsense is just how any "trash" or "common mode noise" or anything else on an equipment ground _actually messes up _any equipment?
> 
> Because short of very severe current flow in ground loops or instrumentation shields, I have never seen a normal equipment ground mess anything up. Arguing about what it does still doesn't address whether it's necessary.



Well Audio equipment 
sound equipment 
computers systems 
radio systems dopler radar 
basically plants that manufacture satellites or high tech defense systems .
A ground plane or shield is used on just about anything electronic without a shield to its frame or enclosure its going to pick up static odd currents stay voltages frequency's .
There are filters inside that bypass things to the shield or ground system so the less com mode trash on the line or circuit grounding system its better .
If you can separate the general grounding from the IG stuff your doing great .


----------



## Big John

So you're saying you* have actually seen* all those things get screwed up by being plugged into properly-wired non-IG power systems?


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> So you're saying you* have actually seen* all those things get screwed up by being plugged into properly-wired non-IG power systems?


 
Well in the old days we had a ground that shared all grounds .

I have seen techs cut the grounds off power outlets at production studios to stop audio hum . 

I seen this also in Radio/TV stations projects were common grounding was a problem with the system were it was removed totally unsafe .

Some high tech manufacturing plants meaning construction projects we have done have three different grounding systems 

Yes I have seen it .


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> ...I have seen techs cut the grounds off power outlets at production studios to stop audio hum...
> 
> I seen this also in Radio/TV stations projects were common grounding was a problem with the system were it was removed totally unsafe...


 It's already been addressed in this thread a number of times that IGs can hide wiring mistakes that will cause interference. Without knowing what was causing those problems, it's very thin evidence that a properly wired common ground would not have worked in those applications.


----------



## chicken steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

~CS~


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> It's already been addressed in this thread a number of times that IGs can hide wiring mistakes that will cause interference. Without knowing what was causing those problems, it's very thin evidence that a properly wired common ground would not have worked in those applications.


Well iam not talking about the IG have issues iam talking why we use a IG which I say works fine if installed the correct way .

Like I said a general common grounding method can not be used on Audio systems .

Were not talking back feed in audio were talking static noises 
other equipment on the same ground which interferes with the audio .

When we run IG grounds we run two grounds one for conduit & boxes and one for the IG outlet and that's in a metal raceway .


Funny part is in electronics the frame or metal cabinet is the shield or ground plane it doesn't need the breaker to trip it has its own protection built inside . 

And using the ground is a waste of time but its a code thing and must be done .


----------



## chicken steve

I can't see any true _'isolation' _, unless the electrical isolation is indeed physical Pipe Dude......

~CS~


----------



## Big John

My position is very simple:

Show me evidence of where IGs solve problems that correctly wired common grounds cannot solve.

So far I've got one example in an antiquated communications facility where someone is worried about ground loops due to improper bonding.

And I've got another example of guys cutting off ground pins to solve audio hum.

Neither one of those is a good justification for why we should keep installing these.


----------



## piperunner

chicken steve said:


> I can't see any true _'isolation' _, unless the electrical isolation is indeed physical Pipe Dude......
> 
> ~CS~



Well lets see if you have a UPS that is 500 KVA 3ph 208/120v which is powered by a battery bank that powers up a rectifier to inverter which feeds primary of isolation xtmr which is not connected to the system ground on the transformer side but by a long grounding conductor running back hundreds of feet I say your fairly isolated on the ground . Also thers a filter on that system just a few things to make it separate from the regular grounding system .

So resistance on the grounding wire that connects the ground bars is just enough to some what isolate and its better than the IG connected the way the NEC code shows that's a waste of time .


----------



## Bad Electrician

piperunner said:


> Well lets see if you have a UPS that is 500 KVA 3ph 208/120v which is powered by a battery bank that powers up a rectifier to inverter which feeds
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG, the battery is between the rectifier and inverter.
> 
> The rectifier powers the system through the inverter, the battery is on float charge (drawing minimal current from the rectifier) upon a loss of input power the battery supplies power through the inverter which changes DC (the battery) to AC to power the critical load. Upon restoration if input, the rectifier powers the load through the inverter and charges the battery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The primary of isolation xtmr which is not connected to the system ground on the transformer side but by a long grounding conductor running back hundreds of feet I say your fairly isolated on the ground . Also thers a filter on that system just a few things to make it separate from the regular grounding system .
> 
> So resistance on the grounding wire that connects the ground bars is just enough to some what isolate and its better than the IG connected the way the NEC code shows that's a waste of time .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Plese tell me you are not teaching this to our future electricians.
> 
> Pipe you lack of understanding of the systems you claim to be an expert on really frustrates me. I could care less that you have a misunderstanding of the system but as I have said you are teaching others.
Click to expand...


----------



## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> So resistance on the grounding wire that connects the ground bars is just enough to some what isolate and its better than the IG connected the way the NEC code shows that's a waste of time .


Theoretically it needs to be _zero_, in any event to be 'isolated' Pipe Dude

I just can't see that happening in a structure that's one big noodle to begin with

~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician

chicken steve said:


> Theoretically it needs to be _zero_, in any event to be 'isolated' Pipe Dude
> 
> I just can't see that happening in a structure that's one big noodle to begin with
> 
> ~CS~


Steve the UPS he is misdescribing, if it is as he claims 208/120 then typically there is a bypass, this bypass is 208/120 which would tie the utility neutral to the the UPS output. Unless there are two isolation transformers , typically in the size he is describing the UPS are 480/480 to a PDU (480-208/120 transformer and panel in one).

Multiple PDU's with isolation is a good design, his resistance in the bus aiding ground isolation is back to HOODOO VOODOO electrical design.


----------



## chicken steve

I think i get it Bad One

simplistically _(if i may, because i excel at it):jester: _ any possible common GEC negates any true isolation.....~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician

In theroy the IG makes sense if you willy nilly allow neutras to be compromised but in a properly installed facility with clear neutrals (not downstream grounds) the intent of the IG is wasted.

Now there may have been a time when the IG was important to minimize noise issues. I have never seen it and while some may question my "big job experience", I can insure I have work with all the giants in the Hospital, data, telco, federal (you know the guys with acronyms that like "real clean power" so they can listen to us) and state governments, TV and radio and satellite communication. Where my expierence is somewhat limited is large industrial facilities, though I do have some expierence in manufacturing.

And in my experience, if the systems are properly installed per the NEC the IG is not necessary, can you install it, sure, but I do not feel it adds anything.


----------



## chicken steve

Well i don't have your experience Bad One, i'm as grass root rural as one can get in this trade. But i _did_ do a lot of IG , along with my podunk peers decades ago, and now i _don't_

I figure there's a lotta smarter folks than i'll ever be that constiture a reason for that

~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician

chicken steve said:


> Well i don't have your experience Bad One, i'm as grass root rural as one can get in this trade. But i _did_ do a lot of IG , along with my podunk peers decades ago, and now i _don't_
> 
> I figure there's a lotta smarter folks than i'll ever be that constiture a reason for that
> 
> ~CS~


We did many, many IG's and did a lot of panels with isolation transformers. Some specs called for a seperate ground rod to the IGfor the transformers, fun when the panel was on the 12th floor and the install violated the NEC. Ran 750 KCMILs to the main switchboard for some installs to the Main Electric Room many floors away.


----------



## CFL

I work in the same areas as pipe runner and I know his company. We compete on most jobs. I know plenty of people just like him, many in my company. Somehow by spouting out a bunch of bull**** in language nobody can comprehend, the higher ups will not argue for fear of being wrong and embarrassed. This enables this person to rise through the ranks and become the go-to expert. Eventually, I think these people start believing themselves and turn into what we have here.

As far as these IG's go, I work for Space and Defense contractors and their IG systems are all f'd up. Anything new I install does not contain IG's and honestly, I don't even read the copy/paste specs. They have all kinds of stupid govt specs that are almost never implemented correctly. The ground guru at one facility is a total joke and I have ignored his advice always.

Many data centers I work in have no IG's, and somehow everything works. Most other data centers had IG's at one point, but EC's have since f'd them all up. Everything still works somehow.

Piperunner, you have to know that most of the guys in this thread, including me, understand the theory behind IG's. The one person who appears to know the least is you. This is because the language you use is so strange and your answers are never appropriate. You seem to repeat yourself instead of trying to make a more effective argument. Just because you work on large projects does not make you special. Part of my job is to come behind you guys and fix things. I got to my position by knowing yours first. Chill out.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bad Electrician

CFL said:


> I work in the same areas as pipe runner and I know his company. We compete on most jobs. I know plenty of people just like him, many in my company. Somehow by spouting out a bunch of bull**** in language nobody can comprehend, the higher ups will not argue for fear of being wrong and embarrassed. This enables this person to rise through the ranks and become the go-to expert. Eventually, I think these people start believing themselves and turn into what we have here.
> 
> As far as these IG's go, I work for Space and Defense contractors and their IG systems are all f'd up. Anything new I install does not contain IG's and honestly, I don't even read the copy/paste specs. They have all kinds of stupid govt specs that are almost never implemented correctly. The ground guru at one facility is a total joke and I have ignored his advice always.
> 
> Many data centers I work in have no IG's, and somehow everything works. Most other data centers had IG's at one point, but EC's have since f'd them all up. Everything still works somehow.
> 
> Piperunner, you have to know that most of the guys in this thread, including me, understand the theory behind IG's. The one person who appears to know the least is you. This is because the language you use is so strange and your answers are never appropriate. You seem to repeat yourself instead of trying to make a more effective argument. Just because you work on large projects does not make you special. Part of my job is to come behind you guys and fix things. I got to my position by knowing yours first. Chill out.:thumbsup:



Well said and on the point.:thumbsup:

If you can't dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with BS.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well thanks Don yes I know you spend most of your time on multiple forums .
> ...


So you work for the NSA...you are monitoring my internet access???? 
If not you have no way of knowing anything about the time I may or may not spend on forums...

I have never believed a word that you have posted and with comments like this I never will.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> ... the IG connected the way the NEC code shows that's a waste of time .


I don't understand. I thought you were telling us that IGs are a good thing and that we need to be using them and now you are telling us that they are a waste of time???????


----------



## MTW

Bad Electrician said:


> Plese tell me you are not teaching this to our future electricians.
> 
> Pipe you lack of understanding of the systems you claim to be an expert on really frustrates me. I could care less that you have a misunderstanding of the system but as I have said you are teaching others.


Piperunner is good at one skill set only - getting pipe from point A to point B, setting gear and pulling wire. It's been obvious for years now that he has no solid understanding of basic electrical principles and theory whatsoever.


----------



## chicken steve

Those _higher ups_ mentioned seem to disagree here...

The IEEE, Emerald book, Naval Facility Grounding & NEC , least of all grounding EE experts don't read_ (at least to my take)_ as being on the same IG page

BUT, there's apparently _bizillions of $$$_ at stake addressing the issue

So if us wee folk are misled , it's fodder from above doing so


~CS~


----------



## Barjack

cuba_pete said:


> You should have gotten proper schooling on your way. I don't think you can get a good theory lesson on IG's from a forum.


I didn't go to YOUR school, did I?

This is a common tactic among engineers. They can't answer the question, so they suggest my education is to blame, and offer up supposed reading material on the subject. We both know its a wild goose chase, and its your way of dismissing me. 



> It's in the NEC...isn't that good enough for you? Weren't you tested and approved on the NEC? Did you fake it through any questions about IG?


You are the only one faking it. 

My having a journeyman's license proves I have been tested and "approved" on the NEC. With that, I can tell you NFPA 70 does not mandate IG's and IG receptacles, but only offers installation guidelines, and where it may not be used, such as in health care facilities.



> Can you install an IG effectively if you don't understand its merits?


I sure can. I will install them every day all day for the rest of my career if I'm being paid to do it.



> Could anyone do the job correctly...or just to code? Remember...those are just the bare minimums!


So first, you say its in the NEC, then you talk about minimum code requirements, and how its good to be above the minimum. Which is it?

Same tactic, at work in a different way. Now you suggest I'm a lazy electrician because I won't subscribe to your mumbo jumbo.

You have since admitted that the government facility you work in is antiquated, and very likely has many neutral and ground issues, which would be too expensive to repair. As a taxpayer, I appreciate you taking the least expensive approach in installing IG's. As I said in my original post, it is only a bandaid, covering up the other issues.


----------



## chicken steve

> As a taxpayer, I appreciate you taking the least expensive approach in installing IG's


According to Pete, that would be to live with the older installs .


~CS~


----------



## Barjack

chicken steve said:


> According to Pete, that would be to live with the older installs .
> 
> 
> ~CS~


In a way, I think he is doing that. It's probably very easy and inexpensive to string an AC with insulated ground back to the main panel or SDS, or even pull another proper ground through a pipe. At that point, you are getting the ground you are supposed to have in the first place.


----------



## chicken steve

If i'm reading Pete right, he's stated IG's are debated by folks who disagree on the theory, yet to reconsider the entire doctrine isn't cost effective , so they simply choose to _'live with'_ what they have, as well as continue along with the same questionable installs.

That sounds like bureaucracy 101 making the call , more than anything of electrical theory

Isn't the first time in our profession, probably won't be the last Bar Dude



~CS~


----------



## Barjack

chicken steve said:


> Isn't the first time in our profession, probably won't be the last Bar Dude
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Oh, I get it. I just don't like it. I will fight it every chance I get, especially here.


----------



## chicken steve

We've a long list of two wrongs/right Bar Dude

Just remember, we (the electricians in the field) don't run our profession

~CS~


----------



## Barjack

I do believe it is our job to challenge misconceptions; speak truth to power as it were.


----------



## piperunner

Well so what everyone is stating that a IG doesn't work its a problem .

And any tiny odd frequency chopping or common mode noise on electronic equipment can not be separated by a IG . You know that IG wire running back to its first point of origin.

Separated cant be done from general grounding system because it still ties into the ground point of the same grounding system is that correct BE.

That a grounding conductor that goes to the service doesn't help with tiny micro volts odd freq chop on the shields of any electronic equipment you know this and the NEC covers this in detail ?

Thanks Bad Electrician you are correct generally yes most UPS systems do work that way . So what your saying is you have never had a UPS that was fed from battery 100 % and only on emergency the battery is used or you haven't seen it ?

:thumbup:


----------



## Bad Electrician

> piperunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well so what everyone is stating that a IG doesn't work its a problem .
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Bad Electrician you are correct generally yes most UPS systems do work that way . So what your saying is you have never had a UPS that was fed from battery 100 % and only on emergency the battery is used or you haven't seen it ?
> 
> :thumbup:
Click to expand...

It is impossible to feed a UPS from a battery 100% of the time, there has to be a rectifier or motor generator somewhere in the mix, to keep the batteries charged. Batteries have a limited amount of stored energy and can only supply loads for a limited period, additionally taking the power to run loads from the battery results in a battery discharge. Batteries have a limited amount of discharges, discharging batteries shortens the battery life.

Not a practical nor economical approach to supplying power to critical loads.

And I have been working on and around UPS systems since the 70's, worked on 24 VDC, 48VDC, 120 VDC, up to 540VDC rectifiers, inverters, motor generator,s and static UPS systems all using NiCad or lead acid batteries plus quite a few utilizing fly wheel technology. Are there some systems I may not have seen sure, but having work for and with the big names in the business Pillar, Eaton, Exide, Emerson, IPM, MGE/EPE/Schneider, Chloride, Cyberex, GE, Toshiba, Lorain, Ratelco and a few I forget I have seen many, many UPS setups and as I noted what you describe is not practical.

But if you can supply a link I would happily read about it and learn


----------



## Pharon

piperunner said:


> That a grounding conductor that goes to the service doesn't help with tiny micro volts odd freq chop on the shields of any electronic equipment you know this and the NEC covers this in detail ?


Common mode noise shouldn't exist on a properly installed equipment grounding conductor. On the neutral? Sure. But as long as there's complete separation of grounds from neutrals in your system all the way back to the source, your equipment grounds should be as clean as any IGs.


----------



## cuba_pete

*Beneficial IG installation example*



Big John said:


> My position is very simple:
> 
> *Show me evidence of where IGs solve problems that correctly wired common grounds cannot solve.*


(this is not an all-inclusive dissertation...Q and A is reciprocated)

_I have an example I can share:_

This was modern equipment, purchased just about 5 years ago by an _unnamed_ government contractor. (They liked the equipment so much that they acquired the product line...neat!)

The system was designed for a specific customer using generic commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) products. The system designer/engineer, however, failed to take into account that the design minimum ambient for the analog processing system is about -200 dB (re 1 μPa) at the front end of the analog processing equipment. This is _very_ sensitive equipment

The analog processing equipment provided this low-level signal at spectrum equalized -50 dBV, where the ground floor was between -60 and -90 with multiple harmonics of 60 Hz present, naturally. That's really close.

This does not provide much separation between the analog signals which need to be processed and the common background noise.

Normally, prior to the _new_ equipment utilization, the signals were provided on a shielded twisted-pair (shield bonded at source end) differential input to a differential processing system. The newer equipment, however, utilized a single-ended analog to digital processor. To make matters worse, the common bond was utilized throughout the equipment with the timing circuits and was bonded to the chassis of the equipment, to the rack, etc.

Analog data could be detected all over the chassis, grounding points, shields, etc. due to the differential nature of the input.

To make matters even worse, the low switching speed switch mode power supply in the chassis utilized a floating ground on the DC side (relative to the chassis, but not the processor, obviously). This allowed the SMPS to reference (chassis) ground _through_ the processing circuitry. This injected subharmonics of switching speed at random throughout the spectrum.

Now, ground taking all paths...places all of the "trash", i.e., noise, on the low side of what was a differential input to an analog/digital processor. Spectrum analysis in the areas of concern found numerous wandering artifacts which interfered with normal signal recognition and processing. In other words, it affected the _entire purpose_ of the system.

Without too much more detail, long story short...I went back to the contractor's cabinet and installed an IG from the "ground up". The levels of the noise on the signal low were reduced to such a level as made them insignificant to the desired analog data stream. The noise is still there, but its much quieter now.

All of this was accomplished while maintaining the NEC safety ground. All of my facility grounds are bonded, just like the IEEE and NEC recommend/mandate.

It wasn't so much the effect of the common mode noise. It was the design of the system which didn't take a lot of other items into consideration, allowing the existing common noise to become an issue. The common mode noise wasn't reduced throughout the installation, but the processing floor which _was_ affected by common mode noise was given a better reference.

By providing a better (preferred) path for the ground currents to follow before reaching the sensitive processing front-end, the IG reduced the noise on the intended circuit. Thank you, Kirchoff, for clarifying that for us.


----------



## piperunner

Bad Electrician said:


> It is impossible to feed a UPS from a battery 100% of the time, there has to be a rectifier or motor generator somewhere in the mix, to keep the batteries charged. Batteries have a limited amount of stored energy and can only supply loads for a limited period, additionally taking the power to run loads from the battery results in a battery discharge. Batteries have a limited amount of discharges, discharging batteries shortens the battery life.
> 
> Not a practical nor economical approach to supplying power to critical loads.
> 
> And I have been working on and around UPS systems since the 70's, worked on 24 VDC, 48VDC, 120 VDC, up to 540VDC rectifiers, inverters, motor generator,s and static UPS systems all using NiCad or lead acid batteries plus quite a few utilizing fly wheel technology. Are there some systems I may not have seen sure, but having work for and with the big names in the business Pillar, Eaton, Exide, Emerson, IPM, MGE/EPE/Schneider, Chloride, Cyberex, GE, Toshiba, Lorain, Ratelco and a few I forget I have seen many, many UPS setups and as I noted what you describe is not practical.
> 
> But if you can supply a link I would happily read about it and learn


Well yes theres plenty the information its out its fairly simple NASA has and one space coast defense contractor like Harris corp .

They use fuel cells which is common to everyone today its unlimited power all you need is a supply of water and oxygen which keeps it going 24 /7 theres no down time. Its funny but you may not see this in 20 years but it works fine .

There are two jobs we have done a 500 KVA UPS that is supplied by just fuel cells . 

It can run all day long this is new tech stuff and its not on the market because its so costly to make and run no one would manufacture it .

So were still in the stone age but its been around for many years auto makers tried it but were not set up for pumping hydrogen at the gas pumps yet .

The job we did was just a transformer which is supplied by a fuel cell to rectifier which uses a regular inverter which was a Eaton UPS the unit had a transformer internal .Transformer ahead of the UPS was needed to change the voltage because a fuel cell bank is not the same output of a battery they had a Square-D voltage regulator also in the mix so it was interesting to do that job .
Voltage was maintained by regulator to the Eaton UPS .
This is very costly but its what our government likes to do spend money on new stuff which is how we operate .

So anyone can do it if you have cash from our tax we pay .

I travel 3 hours a day from space coast to Orlando so if I don't come on everyday you guys are lucky


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well yes theres plenty the information its out its fairly simple NASA has and one space coast defense contractor like Harris corp .
> 
> They use fuel cells which is common to everyone today its unlimited power all you need is a supply of water and oxygen which keeps it going 24 /7 theres no down time. Its funny but you may not see this in 20 years but it works fine .
> 
> There are two jobs we have done a 500 KVA UPS that is supplied by just fuel cells .
> 
> It can run all day long this is new tech stuff and its not on the market because its so costly to make and run no one would manufacture it .
> 
> So were still in the stone age but its been around for many years auto makers tried it but were not set up for pumping hydrogen at the gas pumps yet .
> 
> The job we did was just a transformer which is supplied by a fuel cell to rectifier which uses a regular inverter which was a Eaton UPS the unit had a transformer internal .Transformer ahead of the UPS was needed to change the voltage because a fuel cell bank is not the same output of a battery they had a Square-D voltage regulator also in the mix so it was interesting to do that job .
> Voltage was maintained by regulator to the Eaton UPS .
> This is very costly but its what our government likes to do spend money on new stuff which is how we operate .
> 
> So anyone can do it if you have cash from our tax we pay .
> 
> I travel 3 hours a day from space coast to Orlando so if I don't come on everyday you guys are lucky


Any pics? Info? Sounds awesome.

I have seen fuel cells used for CHHWC&E (combined heat, hot water, cooling and electricity aka cogeneration). Works really well for places that use a lot of heat like hospitals, universities and manufacturing.


----------



## Meadow

Bad Electrician said:


> In theroy the IG makes sense if you willy nilly allow neutras to be compromised but in a properly installed facility with clear neutrals (not downstream grounds) the intent of the IG is wasted.
> 
> Now there may have been a time when the IG was important to minimize noise issues. I have never seen it and while some may question my "big job experience", I can insure I have work with all the giants in the Hospital, data, telco, federal (you know the guys with acronyms that like "real clean power" so they can listen to us) and state governments, TV and radio and satellite communication. Where my expierence is somewhat limited is large industrial facilities, though I do have some expierence in manufacturing.
> 
> And in my experience, if the systems are properly installed per the NEC the IG is not necessary, can you install it, sure, but I do not feel it adds anything.


 
Best statement ever. You might not be able to believe how many engineers have chewed me out for saying the IGs are a waste of money. Or do not as they claim provide a low impedance path back to the grounding system to soak up common mode noise. 

I can agree that in audio systems balanced power may help, but IGs are a gimmick. And, imo (I could be wrong) same goes for needing a huge grounding system. Ground rods do nothing to eliminate audio noise or clean up power. I have heard the argument (no idea if its true) that a good grounding system shunts radio waves to ground and I can maybe by that, but the rest is all BS. Same with oxygen free copper wire to supply equipment.


----------



## Fibes

cuba_pete said:


> (this is not an all-inclusive dissertation...Q and A is reciprocated)
> 
> _I have an example I can share:_
> 
> This was modern equipment, purchased just about 5 years ago by an _unnamed_ government contractor. (They liked the equipment so much that they acquired the product line...neat!)
> 
> The system was designed for a specific customer using generic commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) products. The system designer/engineer, however, failed to take into account that the design minimum ambient for the analog processing system is about -200 dB (re 1 μPa) at the front end of the analog processing equipment. This is _very_ sensitive equipment
> 
> The analog processing equipment provided this low-level signal at spectrum equalized -50 dBV, where the ground floor was between -60 and -90 with multiple harmonics of 60 Hz present, naturally. That's really close.
> 
> This does not provide much separation between the analog signals which need to be processed and the common background noise.
> 
> Normally, prior to the _new_ equipment utilization, the signals were provided on a shielded twisted-pair (shield bonded at source end) differential input to a differential processing system. The newer equipment, however, utilized a single-ended analog to digital processor. To make matters worse, the common bond was utilized throughout the equipment with the timing circuits and was bonded to the chassis of the equipment, to the rack, etc.
> 
> Analog data could be detected all over the chassis, grounding points, shields, etc. due to the differential nature of the input.
> 
> To make matters even worse, the low switching speed switch mode power supply in the chassis utilized a floating ground on the DC side (relative to the chassis, but not the processor, obviously). This allowed the SMPS to reference (chassis) ground _through_ the processing circuitry. This injected subharmonics of switching speed at random throughout the spectrum.
> 
> Now, ground taking all paths...places all of the "trash", i.e., noise, on the low side of what was a differential input to an analog/digital processor. Spectrum analysis in the areas of concern found numerous wandering artifacts which interfered with normal signal recognition and processing. In other words, it affected the _entire purpose_ of the system.
> 
> Without too much more detail, long story short...I went back to the contractor's cabinet and installed an IG from the "ground up". The levels of the noise on the signal low were reduced to such a level as made them insignificant to the desired analog data stream. The noise is still there, but its much quieter now.
> 
> All of this was accomplished while maintaining the NEC safety ground. All of my facility grounds are bonded, just like the IEEE and NEC recommend/mandate.
> 
> It wasn't so much the effect of the common mode noise. It was the design of the system which didn't take a lot of other items into consideration, allowing the existing common noise to become an issue. The common mode noise wasn't reduced throughout the installation, but the processing floor which _was_ affected by common mode noise was given a better reference.
> 
> By providing a better (preferred) path for the ground currents to follow before reaching the sensitive processing front-end, the IG reduced the noise on the intended circuit. Thank you, Kirchoff, for clarifying that for us.


So to summarize, you were just applying a bandaid to a bunch of antiquated technology POS equipment.


----------



## cuba_pete

*5-year old equipment is not antiquated...*



Fibes said:


> So to summarize, you were just applying a bandaid to a bunch of antiquated technology POS equipment.


=====================================================

Here is a corollary: Do you consider resistor ignition wires in an automobile a band-aid, or a requirement to ensure the vehicle runs properly? Your answer to that question would tell me the direction of your thinking.

=====================================================

I don't think people are understanding what I wrote. Are they aware of the myriad of exceptions in the NEC? There is a reason for all of those exceptions, and they are _not_ band-aids.

The NFPA does _not_ publish standards for _band-aids._

The system in my example (as requested) _was_ originally grounded and bonded according to the NEC. The NEC does _not_ cover completely the necessary methods to stop natural electrical noise from entering sensitive processing systems. It's not a text-book, it's bare minimum guidelines/requirements for electrical safety.

If someone is only relying on the NEC for their education they are woefully mistaken that they completely understand the theory of electricity.

In fact, in this instance, the normal methods actually _caused_ the issue. What is the point of having equipment installed if it doesn't even serve the purpose?

A properly installed IG is a system which can be designed to prevent the inclusion of noise in the processing of data. This isn't a circulating current which is dangerous to life which is being shunted through some nefarious scheme. 

As another example, frequencies above about 300 kHz should have their communications lines bonded at several points to stop standing waves (trash/noise). Frequencies below tend to be more sensitive to longer waves and bonding the drain/shield at the source end _only_ becomes necessary. Where and how this bonding is done makes a world of difference.

This is especially important when taking into consideration whether the signals are differential, single-ended, balanced, analog, digital, LF, HF, microwave, SHF, etc.

Whether the bonding is internal or external to the equipment is another topic altogether, where image planes and SRG's can be implemented.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why so much vehemence against something that has been included in electrical standards since the Hawkins Electrical Guide was published?


----------



## Fibes

cuba_pete said:


> =====================================================
> 
> Here is a corollary: Do you consider resistor ignition wires in an automobile a band-aid, or a requirement to ensure the vehicle runs properly? Your answer to that question would tell me the direction of your thinking.
> 
> =====================================================
> 
> I don't think people are understanding what I wrote. Are they aware of the myriad of exceptions in the NEC? There is a reason for all of those exceptions, and they are _not_ band-aids.
> 
> The NFPA does _not_ publish standards for _band-aids._
> 
> The system in my example (as requested) _was_ originally grounded and bonded according to the NEC. The NEC does _not_ cover completely the necessary methods to stop natural electrical noise from entering sensitive processing systems. It's not a text-book, it's bare minimum guidelines/requirements for electrical safety.
> 
> If someone is only relying on the NEC for their education they are woefully mistaken that they completely understand the theory of electricity.
> 
> In fact, in this instance, the normal methods actually _caused_ the issue. What is the point of having equipment installed if it doesn't even serve the purpose?
> 
> A properly installed IG is a system which can be designed to prevent the inclusion of noise in the processing of data. This isn't a circulating current which is dangerous to life which is being shunted through some nefarious scheme.
> 
> As another example, frequencies above about 300 kHz should have their communications lines bonded at several points to stop standing waves (trash/noise). Frequencies below tend to be more sensitive to longer waves and bonding the drain/shield at the source end _only_ becomes necessary. Where and how this bonding is done makes a world of difference.
> 
> This is especially important when taking into consideration whether the signals are differential, single-ended, balanced, analog, digital, LF, HF, microwave, SHF, etc.
> 
> Whether the bonding is internal or external to the equipment is another topic altogether, where image planes and SRG's can be implemented.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand? Why so much vehemence against something that has been included in electrical standards since the Hawkins Electrical Guide was published?



I don't think you are understanding my post.

Why is the equipment you are talking about still using the EGC as part of the circuit with todays technology 

When you answer that you will have a better understanding of your problem.


----------



## macmikeman

Bad Electrician said:


> It is impossible to feed a UPS from a battery 100% of the time, there has to be a rectifier or motor generator somewhere in the mix, to keep the batteries charged. Batteries have a limited amount of stored energy and can only supply loads for a limited period, additionally taking the power to run loads from the battery results in a battery discharge. Batteries have a limited amount of discharges, discharging batteries shortens the battery life.
> 
> Not a practical nor economical approach to supplying power to critical loads.
> 
> And I have been working on and around UPS systems since the 70's, worked on 24 VDC, 48VDC, 120 VDC, up to 540VDC rectifiers, inverters, motor generator,s and static UPS systems all using NiCad or lead acid batteries plus quite a few utilizing fly wheel technology. Are there some systems I may not have seen sure, but having work for and with the big names in the business Pillar, Eaton, Exide, Emerson, IPM, MGE/EPE/Schneider, Chloride, Cyberex, GE, Toshiba, Lorain, Ratelco and a few I forget I have seen many, many UPS setups and as I noted what you describe is not practical.
> 
> But if you can supply a link I would happily read about it and learn


You left out ''Best'' . A flywheel company I used to rep along with Leiberman
Probably both gone now....


----------



## cuba_pete

*EGC and IG*



Fibes said:


> I don't think you are understanding my post.
> 
> Why is the equipment you are talking about still using the EGC as part of the circuit with todays technology
> 
> When you answer that you will have a better understanding of your problem.


Ha ha ha!:laughing: I _don't_ have a problem. I followed the NEC and IEEE guidelines to _solve_ issues.

I really am trying hard to keep this civil, but it is trying!

A properly implemented IG system includes an EGC, and both are bonded at the service.

If someone is installing an (NEC) IG which is not bonded at the service along with the EGC, then they don't know what they are doing.


----------



## Fibes

cuba_pete said:


> Ha ha ha!:laughing: I _don't_ have a problem. I followed the NEC and IEEE guidelines to _solve_ issues.


And I didn't question your code compliance did I?



cuba_pete said:


> I really am trying hard to keep this civil, but it is trying!


Ohhh, don't try to hard, it might be fun to see you with your panties in a wad.



cuba_pete said:


> A properly implemented IG system includes an EGC, and both are bonded at the service.


 And you are correct but, the discussion is about an IG not being necessary, not how it has to installed per the NEC.




cuba_pete said:


> If someone is installing an (NEC) IG which is not bonded at the service along with the EGC, then they don't know what they are doing.


Correct again but, that is not the discussion at hand.

You seem to imply that an IG is still needed with todays equipment, in a short concise post tell us why you think that.

I said concise because I am tremendously impressed with your typing skills but, I don't really want to read some long drawn out rambling 
go around the world story.

Thank you


----------



## chicken steve

cuba_pete said:


> By providing a better (preferred) path for the ground currents to follow before reaching the sensitive processing front-end, the IG reduced the noise on the intended circuit. *Thank you, Kirchoff, for clarifying that for us*.


Referencing Gustav Kirchoff probably makes the most sense in this thread yet Pete

~CS~


----------



## piperunner

meadow said:


> Any pics? Info? Sounds awesome.
> 
> I have seen fuel cells used for CHHWC&E (combined heat, hot water, cooling and electricity aka cogeneration). Works really well for places that use a lot of heat like hospitals, universities and manufacturing.




Well first you don't take a camera to the space center second you don't take photos at a defense plant unless you like prison or find another place to work .
But its really nothing special trucks cars and buses trains use fuel cells lots of companys market UPS with fuel cells just pick one on the internet .Link it yourself its been around for years .



But this is a general statement for the few here who think they know everything about grounding . 
Have you any experience with audio systems or radio transmission 
how about video transmission. And iam not saying work on a job were they install it have you built a transmitter or a amplifier do you have a electronics background . Weres your degree in electronics because if you had that you would know what or how a clean ground is used for or why engineers want a IG .


Its not the world electricians deal with theres filters snubbers low pass filters high pass filters . These unwanted signals pass to ground via a wire or shields there microvolts or different frequencies a small amount of wire with a connection other then SG could dissipate these tiny unwanted signals chops trash garbage with out any other interference on that ground .

For the ones who think I talk BS what electronics experience do you have and prove it lets see what you have built or actually made lets see which one is BS . What I see is a bunch of electricians who talk a lot it sounds good but trust me your wrong on the IG . 

Its a cleaner ground by the distance to the point back to the service then if you had it all tied together with the dirty common grounds but you don't understand that because your really don't know how a radio shield works or any shield works unless you built a amplifier or design one .
You have no electrical background but your NEC code or what you hear on the forum.

IG twisted triplex branch circuit the grounding conductor should be twisted not separated as one poster said . You would make the issue worst if you separated the ground wires inside the conduit .

Yes MTW I don't know anything about electrical just been playing around with it before you were born .
As far as attitudes go look at yourself in the mirror your a complete idiot along with your buddies who don't like me when I don't agree with there limited background in electrical .

Pull your head out of the code book theres more to this then just a wire Its just a ground well its not just a ground DA.


----------



## Bad Electrician

macmikeman said:


> You left out ''Best'' . A flywheel company I used to rep along with Leiberman
> Probably both gone now....


Have not seen a Best in sometime, but worked on many. They had real issues when placed on generators even when the ratio was 4 to 1 (Gen 4 times the KW of the UPS)


----------



## cuba_pete

*Another example*



Fibes said:


> You seem to imply that an IG is still needed with todays equipment, in a short concise post tell us why you think that.
> Thank you


There are some things in nature which simply cannot be accommodated for with a one-size-fits-all approach.

I just purchased a brand-new-this-years-model Agilent N9020A MXA Signal Analyzer. When measuring, the analyzer must be on the same service (IG). If I use another service (IG or non-IG), it induces ground loops due to the common ground used throughout the test equipment (mandated by UL for safety reasons). 60 and her sisters run rampant over my intended signals. Also remember, the input is differential with the ground reference for the input is isolated from my facility, geographically speaking.

Isolating the analyzer from a common test-cart using blocks of wood or rubber insulating mat results in a 1dB to 2dB difference in measurements. That's big...outside of tolerance.

Touching the equipment during measurements can, under certain conditions, result in induced signals (not Objectionable Currents, per se). The resistance measured between the bonded raised deck to the IG is less than 1 ohm in most locations...but that's more than enough to create another leg in the measuring circuit (@-90dBm).

Using a non-IG or different IG service results in errors of 5 dB or more. These error rates are unacceptable.

A _simple_ solution is the IG for the processing systems.


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well first you don't take a camera to the space center second you don't take photos at a defense plant unless you like prison or find another place to work .
> But its really nothing special trucks cars and buses trains use fuel cells lots of companys market UPS with fuel cells just pick one on the internet .Link it yourself its been around for years .
> 
> 
> 
> But this is a general statement for the few here who think they know everything about grounding .
> Have you any experience with audio systems or radio transmission
> how about video transmission. And iam not saying work on a job were they install it have you built a transmitter or a amplifier do you have a electronics background . Weres your degree in electronics because if you had that you would know what or how a clean ground is used for or why engineers want a IG .
> 
> 
> Its not the world electricians deal with theres filters snubbers low pass filters high pass filters . These unwanted signals pass to ground via a wire or shields there microvolts or different frequencies a small amount of wire with a connection other then SG could dissipate these tiny unwanted signals chops trash garbage with out any other interference on that ground .
> 
> For the ones who think I talk BS what electronics experience do you have and prove it lets see what you have built or actually made lets see which one is BS . What I see is a bunch of electricians who talk a lot it sounds good but trust me your wrong on the IG .
> 
> Its a cleaner ground by the distance to the point back to the service then if you had it all tied together with the dirty common grounds but you don't understand that because your really don't know how a radio shield works or any shield works unless you built a amplifier or design one .
> You have no electrical background but your NEC code or what you hear on the forum.
> 
> IG twisted triplex branch circuit the grounding conductor should be twisted not separated as one poster said . You would make the issue worst if you separated the ground wires inside the conduit .
> 
> Yes MTW I don't know anything about electrical just been playing around with it before you were born .
> As far as attitudes go look at yourself in the mirror your a complete idiot along with your buddies who don't like me when I don't agree with there limited background in electrical .
> 
> Pull your head out of the code book theres more to this then just a wire Its just a ground well its not just a ground DA.



I knew injecting logic into this would stir up emotions And, btw, MTW has a lot of knowledge that most guys don't.


----------



## Meadow

Again, I maintain my stance. 99.9% of equipment does not need an IG in a properly wired system. Transformer shielding if anything does more for noise.


----------



## macmikeman

My take; If the man says IG on the specs he gets IG. Man don't say IG on the specs or don't say anything about grounding,then he gets conduit ground on larger projects cause that is probably what won the bid for me. Change orders get the ground and the IG when nobody speaks up before the bid. I love audio guys who suddenly come onto a project and start asking where is the IG that wasn't in the specs cause that becomes money for me. I talk like this is happening now, but really it was 20-30 years ago when I was working that arena, there was good money in it, and there was good money going backwards to fix grounding loops that messed up electronic equipments. I agree with Pipemaster, nothing screwed up the electronics of distributing fiber optics once you landed them in the transceivers more than the noisy background on the system power supply to the front and back end of the fiber transmission runs. Airports are the worst with all the different systems in place and all the constant rework going on by a hundred different outfits doing a hundred different things that nobody could keep track of it all it seemed like.


----------



## Big John

cuba_pete said:


> ...I just purchased a brand-new-this-years-model Agilent N9020A MXA Signal Analyzer. When measuring, the analyzer must be on the same service (IG). If I use another service (IG or non-IG), it induces ground loops due to the common ground used throughout the test equipment (mandated by UL for safety reasons)....


 I don't follow what you mean about different services, are you talking about multiple SDS?

To use your signal analyzer example, I don't understand how powering that with a single IG is any different than powering it with a single common ground. With only one path, where is the ground loop flowing to?


----------



## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> But this is a general statement for the few here who think they know everything about grounding .
> Have you any experience with audio systems or radio transmission
> how about video transmission. .


I ran sound systems, nothing to brag about , zero academia .

But i did have to address singers getting bit off mics a lot.

It was interesting....


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

cuba_pete said:


> 60 and her sisters run rampant over my intended signals..


took me a bit.....:laughing:

~CS~


----------



## piperunner

meadow said:


> I knew injecting logic into this would stir up emotions And, btw, MTW has a lot of knowledge that most guys don't.


Well iam not emotional trust me I talk and respond just like they do. Fact is no one is getting the point of a ground whats it is used for besides tripping a breaker I really don't care one way or the other .

First I don't agree with the knowledge displayed on this grounding issue second no one can relate to the simple fact that a ground that goes back to the service or point of origin is a path cleaner than a common ground tied into all other grounds .

A SG is picking up all the induced signals on the line via the wiring in the raceway because we just pull wire into a conduit we don't see it as a problem because unless you put a scope on it you cant.

Its tiny micro/ currents volts that effect electronic equipment you can have lost data you get get a hum you can get odd interference on the ground by this yes its induced into the ground by trash .

So to say this one more time a IG helps this by running it back so its not directly connected to the other normally installed grounds which are all together.The electronic term is ground plane to earth .

Frequency voltage and currents flow into the ground we cant detect it or see it with the voltage tester most electricians think its not a issue but trust me it is .
The only one on this forum who has it together is Cuba Pete he can explain it in detail a lot better then I can .

Lets just say this iam not impressed with MTW or what he thinks he knows.

I have been playing with electronics for many years I think I need to make a video of a normal ground and a IG ground on a scope but I think no one on this forum would trust me so that's about a waste of time .

A IG is better than a normal ground yes it can be a issue but its better than a common ground with most installs .

On some jobs we use no metallic conduit and isolate the frames of equipment we run two grounds the conduit is a antenna in a way . Just more BS to sway you guys yes its a antenna bros at higher frequencies .

The key is resistance from point A to point B it does matter trust me if you think like a electrician your wrong .

Capacitance coupling resistance and induction yes I use these words to BS you guys but bottom line no one is understanding because there lost thinking they know everything about electrical theory trust me they don't.

I have built transmitters and equipment for my ham radio hobby I have built amplifiers bugs and receivers I play around with electronics since I was a kid 
And a spent 4 years on the Nimitz as a EM3 US navy electrician I know theory you don't sorry but your lost bros.
And Grounds are not just a ground that they teach in ABC school bros you need to read more than what they teach in ABC school.

I cant read or write according to this forum lots of laughs.:thumbup:

This photo is the walls in the building iam working on now they have farday cages on the walls its call transmission isolation and its the most high tech install I have seen. Trust me its bad ass job.


----------



## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> The key is resistance from point A to point B it does matter trust me if you think like a electrician your wrong .
> 
> .


Pipe Dude, as long as there is an R factor, the spectre of Gus Kirchoff applies to _some_ degree. 

This is how we _'think'_ as electricians.



~CS~


----------



## cuba_pete

*Loops...*



Big John said:


> I don't follow what you mean about different services, are you talking about multiple SDS?
> 
> To use your signal analyzer example, I don't understand how powering that with a single IG is any different than powering it with a single common ground.


Yes, as I stated in one of my earlier posts, I have over 20 SDS' in my facility, several utilize an IG. All are bonded at the ground vault.

A thorough understanding of the laws for circuit analysis developed by Maxwell/Faraday/Kirchoff help in cases where common mode noise (and many other sources; inductive and capacitive) become an issue.

The IG _is_ the common ground. The differential and analog nature of my signals of interest perform better using an IG, which is an option..._not an adjunct_...to the normal NEC "safety ground" method.



> With only one path, where is the ground loop flowing to?


Basic electronic circuit analysis can be performed for every installation or modification, but it would take an eternity to calculate all of the possible conditions, natural or man-made, which may exist at any one point for any given time. Applying an IG to the analog processing systems (as a whole) such as mine has proven to be the best and most cost-effective method for reducing _all_ noise on the system.
================================================
================================================
Some people on this thread would probably schite if they realized that I also have a galvanic anode ground field entirely separate; which is not bonded to the building ground, but is powered by equipment which is. The difference of potential is _several_ thousand volts.

That's a hell of a loop potential I have to deal with on a daily basis.


----------



## cuba_pete

*Yes...*



piperunner said:


> This photo is the walls in the building iam working on now they have farday cages on the walls its call transmission isolation and its the most high tech install I have seen. Trust me its bad ass job.


This is similar to the construction of my facility.

We have several SCIFs for the higher frequency issues which utilize the SRG's/Faraday cages...all of which are bonded at the ground vault with the IG's and normal grounds.

The HEMP (high-altitude electromagnetic pulse) enclosures (whole rooms) within some facilities add another layer on top of all of this, and utilize complete optical isolation for an equivalent 100-mile altitude burst.


----------



## macmikeman

cuba_pete said:


> This is similar to the construction of my facility.
> 
> We have several SCIFs for the higher frequency issues which utilize the SRG's/Faraday cages...all of which are bonded at the ground vault with the IG's and normal grounds.
> 
> The HEMP (high-altitude electromagnetic pulse) enclosures (whole rooms) within some facilities add another layer on top of all of this, and utilize complete optical isolation for an equivalent 100-mile altitude burst.


Are you the guys who are drying up the lakes around California? Shame on you you new world orderer's..


----------



## cuba_pete

*Nope...*



macmikeman said:


> Are you the guys who are drying up the lakes around California? Shame on you you new world orderer's..


Umm, nope. I'm in Washington State...definitely not dry.

I'll have to Google that. I thought thirsty Californians and the lack of rain were doing that.


----------



## Big John

piperunner said:


> ...Fact is no one is getting the point of a ground whats it is used for besides tripping a breaker...


 You're right, I don't get that. And I still haven't seen a clear explanation of that claim.


> First I don't agree with the knowledge displayed on this grounding issue second no one can relate to the simple fact that a ground that goes back to the service or point of origin is a path cleaner than a common ground tied into all other grounds.


 Is an IG less _likely _to have current on it? Yes. But a ideally a properly wire common-ground shouldn't have current on it either. And again, I'd still like to know why that matters.


> A SG is picking up all the induced signals on the line via the wiring in the raceway because we just pull wire into a conduit we don't see it as a problem because unless you put a scope on it you cant.


 You can often see that with a regular multimeter. IGs are not immune to induced voltages. Like any other conductor, it just depends on how they are routed.


> Its tiny micro/ currents volts that effect electronic equipment you can have lost data you get get a hum you can get odd interference on the ground by this yes its induced into the ground by trash.


 I've seen almost no evidence for this. Severe loop current causes interference. The average ground will not have and should not have significant current flow on it.


> ...The only one on this forum who has it together is Cuba Pete he can explain it in detail a lot better then I can....


 From the sound on it, Cuba Pete works on extremely specialized equipment, in a very unusual environment. 99% of the IGs installed are not in those applications.


> ...I think I need to make a video of a normal ground and a IG ground on a scope...


 Go for it, I'd like to see it.


----------



## Big John

cuba_pete said:


> Yes, as I stated in one of my earlier posts, I have over 20 SDS' in my facility, several utilize an IG. All are bonded at the ground vault.


 So you're saying that when you run equipment connected to multiple separate SDS, you get ground loop current between them? Seems like that would be true any time there was the possibility of interconnecting between two isolated systems. I don't see how an IG would automatically fix that.


> ...The IG _is_ the common ground....


 Please clarify.


> ...Some people on this thread would probably schite if they realized that I also have a galvanic anode ground field entirely separate; which is not bonded to the building ground, but is powered by equipment which is. The difference of potential is _several_ thousand volts.
> 
> That's a hell of a loop potential I have to deal with on a daily basis.


 So it sounds like there is the potential for massive earth return current. If that's the case, then I can understand very much trying to eliminate ground loops. That said, that's an extremely unusual setup.


----------



## piperunner

cuba_pete said:


> This is similar to the construction of my facility.
> 
> We have several SCIFs for the higher frequency issues which utilize the SRG's/Faraday cages...all of which are bonded at the ground vault with the IG's and normal grounds.
> 
> The HEMP (high-altitude electromagnetic pulse) enclosures (whole rooms) within some facilities add another layer on top of all of this, and utilize complete optical isolation for an equivalent 100-mile altitude burst.


Well we do new construction some of the jobs are interesting the security of this project is fairly important to say the least .
Not sure about the air burst but its secure.
The floors & ceilings are included in the cage and have the same covering. 

The walls are metal studs with a faraday cage core board rock with one layer of lead covered drywall 5/8" 12" thick sound batt then a sub wall .
The next sub wall is aluminum cross linked which you can see in the photos attached.

The floors are 18 inch thick with enough rebar 4 matts thick its a cage attached to walls by cad welding tabs.

Even the conduit is sealed and must have four full bends to enter all electrical is cables no standard wire used.
Doors stainless frames and aluminum doors no windows one way out one way in .
Basically everything is sealed air tight in this room 
Nothing can get into this room or out bug wise.

Yes this is you standard space coast construction specs not like the NEC rules but its really not needed all you need is a SG that will take care of the bugs.


----------



## piperunner

.


Big John said:


> You're right, I don't get that. And I still haven't seen a clear explanation of that claim. Is an IG less _likely _to have current on it? Yes. But a ideally a properly wire common-ground shouldn't have current on it either. And again, I'd still like to know why that matters. You can often see that with a regular multimeter. IGs are not immune to induced voltages. Like any other conductor, it just depends on how they are routed. I've seen almost no evidence for this. Severe loop current causes interference. The average ground will not have and should not have significant current flow on it. From the sound on it, Cuba Pete works on extremely specialized equipment, in a very unusual environment. 99% of the IGs installed are not in those applications. Go for it, I'd like to see it.



Well watch for my next U tube video on IG currents at superconduits .

Ive seen 10 amps on a properly wired ground rod you tell me how.

So your picking up high frequency micro volts on your muti meter? 

Well twisting the conductors of the branch helps not letting it just hang in the conduit so it picks up more induction .

How do you know how or what about our IG grounding and for what purpose on the job that my companys downing . 

Ya we work on some unusual construction projects 
that are one of a kind with equipment we never see if you get my drift but its special trust me . 
And the environment is different lots of buildings with no windows .
Ill let you know when give me a few were working 10 hours a day 6 days a week . But ill make a special video just for you with your name on the title ill called it BIG JOHNS IG VIDEO .
:thumbup:


----------



## cuba_pete

Big John said:


> If that's the case, then I can understand very much trying to eliminate ground loops. That said, that's an extremely unusual setup.


The NEC defines our setup as an IG...but truth be told, it is actually defined by other documentation as an Isolated Bonding Network. The NEC does not define that type of system.

The NEC doesn't address things as specific as these exotic systems, but the general guidelines are there.

Could you even imagine the exceptions for something like this? This is just one example from a reputable site.


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well iam not emotional trust me I talk and respond just like they do. Fact is no one is getting the point of a ground whats it is used for besides tripping a breaker I really don't care one way or the other .
> 
> Then tell me what grounding is for. Yes, it does serve other functions, but I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First I don't agree with the knowledge displayed on this grounding issue second no one can relate to the simple fact that a ground that goes back to the service or point of origin is a path cleaner than a common ground tied into all other grounds .
> 
> 
> That is partially correct when neutral to ground bonds exist. But even then, what about the POCO's MGN? An MGN is an exceptionally dirty conductor in post pocos. And no, not in a properly wired system however. I will explain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A SG is picking up all the induced signals on the line via the wiring in the raceway because we just pull wire into a conduit we don't see it as a problem because unless you put a scope on it you cant.
> 
> Its tiny micro/ currents volts that effect electronic equipment you can have lost data you get get a hum you can get odd interference on the ground by this yes its induced into the ground by trash .
> 
> Those micro volts come from voltage gradients from current on the grounding system. What puts current on a grounding system? A neutral to ground fault that is not detected thanks to our lack of GFI protection on branch circuits. There is no such thing as zero ohms so voltage drop will exist on any current pathway. Such a fault makes the grounding system a current pathway. Thus 2 emerging issues take hold. 1. Stray current flow creates magnetic fields, and because its 60hz, they are inductive capable of inducing current in cables and electronic circuits. That induced current is superimposed onto logic circuits/ audio circuits which creates havoc. 2. elevated ground voltages between various points, which ruin the ground reference on electronics. That voltage difference creates is what is then seen as false signals/data on cables that you are referring to.
> 
> 
> Isolated grounds appeared to work since when the equipment was totally isolated and the ground originated from the service that parallel current path was broken which greatly reduced the voltage gradient as well as the induced currents masking the real cause. This is actually why lifting the ground pins appeared to work in many cases. And its that *exact* reason why IGs were capitulated into fame. IGs broke a ground loop while still meeting NEC grounding requirements of equipment. Due to a lack of understanding of how and why IGs work they both became a mask for standing neutral to ground faults as well as many false assumptions.
> 
> The majority of the trash comes from improper wiring. As I said we have no requirements to megger circuits nor are GFIs mandatory on circuits and feeders (other than 277/480 1000 amp and above service mains). Even if we did hack work is another world on its own. As a result, crossed hots, neutrals and standing ground faults go unnoticed. Most buildings have at least a few of them.
> 
> 
> So to say this one more time a IG helps this by running it back so its not directly connected to the other normally installed grounds which are all together.The electronic term is ground plane to earth .
> 
> Yes, lets leave standing NEC violations some of which are a fire hazard and use IGs to mask a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Frequency voltage and currents flow into the ground we cant detect it or see it with the voltage tester most electricians think its not a issue but trust me it is .
> The only one on this forum who has it together is Cuba Pete he can explain it in detail a lot better then I can .
> 
> Nothing flows to ground by itself, assuming you mean earth, soil. Ground doesn't just soak up electricity. That is a myth peddled for decades due to misconceptions. And, if you talking about an EGC, the less current flow on it the better for your electronics. Current flow means a voltage difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets just say this iam not impressed with MTW or what he thinks he knows.
> 
> And thats ok, its your opinion. I disagree. From the posts I have seen he has a lot of potential as well as knowledge.
> 
> 
> I have been playing with electronics for many years I think I need to make a video of a normal ground and a IG ground on a scope but I think no one on this forum would trust me so that's about a waste of time .
> 
> Do it, but Im willing to bet any significant difference is from wiring issues within your building. Just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A IG is better than a normal ground yes it can be a issue but its better than a common ground with most installs .
> 
> On some jobs we use no metallic conduit and isolate the frames of equipment we run two grounds the conduit is a antenna in a way . Just more BS to sway you guys yes its a antenna bros at higher frequencies .
> 
> The key is resistance from point A to point B it does matter trust me if you think like a electrician your wrong .
> 
> Capacitance coupling resistance and induction yes I use these words to BS you guys but bottom line no one is understanding because there lost thinking they know everything about electrical theory trust me they don't.
> 
> I have built transmitters and equipment for my ham radio hobby I have built amplifiers bugs and receivers I play around with electronics since I was a kid
> And a spent 4 years on the Nimitz as a EM3 US navy electrician I know theory you don't sorry but your lost bros.
> And Grounds are not just a ground that they teach in ABC school bros you need to read more than what they teach in ABC school.
> 
> I cant read or write according to this forum lots of laughs.:thumbup:
> 
> ABC school teachs ground soaks up all problems and an IG is your best friend yada yada. The regurgitation of false knowledge.
> 
> If you are throwing around capacitance, inductance and the like just to BS that means you dont know what they mean, or at least fully grasp their relevance in this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> This photo is the walls in the building iam working on now they have farday cages on the walls its call transmission isolation and its the most high tech install I have seen. Trust me its bad ass job.



All that is for highly specialized equipment. I wouldn't be surprised if the incoming feeder for that is a prefab cable with twisted parallel sets of screened cooper... but that is a rarity. 99.999% of equipment does fine without shielded rooms including IGs. 

Every time I see an IG say at a McDonald's for their cash register, I think "what a gimmick". Further add the fact what most don't know being 95% of those aren't even installed correctly, let alone a dedicated ground. Its just an orange outlet jumpered to the metal box that grounds through the conduit. Nothing more. Nobody knows that, registers work fine, and yet someone thinks who wrote the specs a difference was made. Service techs think wow it has its own ground rod, its so special, this puppy will never fail. Wrong. 


And just to add. Equipment manufacturers arent dumb. Dont ask how I know but they figured it out. Most customers don't have clean grounds be it a special IG or plain Jane vanilla outlet. Most equipment, even many low grade devices, are being designed differently so even in cases involving a really dirty ground make no difference to the end user. Operation is no longer dependent external factors the way it was 10 years ago.


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ive seen 10 amps on a properly wired ground rod you tell me how.
> 
> 
> :thumbup:



Thats somewhat irrelevant to IGs, maybe not:laughing:. But that is easy, a TN-C system in operation. An MGN or service noodle, either broken or even under normal operation given the right factors. Thats not electronics doing that, its current using the soil as a way to get back to its source. Very different concept. 


Either that someone ran all the IGs to a common buss bar, drove a ground rod or two or several dozen for an IG wet dream and never bonded it to the service neutral. Something plugged into the IG faults energizing the ground rods.


----------



## cuba_pete

meadow said:


> Thats somewhat irrelevant to IGs, maybe not:laughing...Thats not electronics doing that....


 I gotta agree there...that's excessive. I would like to know the voltage (type?) and frequency (spectrum, as applicable) that current is running. I would also check the harmonic structure. That is the definition of objectionable current.


----------



## don_resqcapt19

Yes, 10 amps on the GEC connected to a ground rod is a trigger to be looking at the system to see why, but 10 amps on a GEC connected to a grounding electrode with a much lower impedance, such as a common underground metal water piping system, maybe not. 

On a grounded service the current path via the grounding electrode system is really in parallel with the grounded conductor. The path via the metal water pipe often has a very low impedance and it is not uncommon to find 20% or more of the total grounded conductor current flowing on the water pipe. It is also, often a good enough path so that in the case of an open service grounded conductor, no one in the building notices that anything is wrong.


----------



## chicken steve

cuba_pete said:


> The NEC defines our setup as an IG...but truth be told, it is actually defined by other documentation as an Isolated Bonding Network. The NEC does not define that type of system.
> 
> The NEC doesn't address things as specific as these exotic systems, but the general guidelines are there.
> 
> Could you even imagine the exceptions for something like this? This is just one example from a reputable site.


Very interesting Pete.... 


> Grounding conductors (i.e., DC equipment grounding conductor (DCEG), AC equipment grounding conductor (ACEG), shields of metallic links such as coax, etc.) entering into the IBN must enter within the designated area of the single-point connection window (SPCW), be referenced to the SPCB, and be insulated from the CBN from there forward. Note: The SPCW has historical reference to the “ground window,” a term not recommended by “The Emerald Book.”


~CS~


----------



## piperunner

meadow said:


> Thats somewhat irrelevant to IGs, maybe not:laughing:. But that is easy, a TN-C system in operation. An MGN or service noodle, either broken or even under normal operation given the right factors. Thats not electronics doing that, its current using the soil as a way to get back to its source. Very different concept.
> 
> 
> Either that someone ran all the IGs to a common buss bar, drove a ground rod or two or several dozen for an IG wet dream and never bonded it to the service neutral. Something plugged into the IG faults energizing the ground rods.



Well at least you give good reason for why you don't agree with me I respect that and you do spell good .

Ground loops do not cause problems if we what ?

1# None of the wires in the loop carry any current .
2# The loop is not exposed to any magnetic field .
3# There is no radio signal interference nearby.

Try and find any place on earth with that. LOL There is just some places who have more of that then others which can be excessive .

By the way I don't work at burger king its a bigger job.

One single Computer switching would you believe can spike the neutral line to 4 amps which can induce a voltage in the ground conductor . agree - yes no ?

Even a small induced voltage can cause a large current in a ground conductor because resistance and induction are low . agree- yes no ? 

What or how does a ground wire become induced by others near current carrying conductors running long lengths untwisted .Best example Tray cables 
or raceways in buildings .

Would you believe I could make a insulated copper conductor insulation glow meaning put out light at some voltage and frequency ? yes /no 


Ok in my thoughts tonite I hope its spelled correctly 

Grounding paths if all the neutral wire and all connections have a combined Z
much smaller than the paralleled grounding conductor paths then that portion of the return current which splits into these ground paths can be neglected ?
yes /no 

Can we say commonly or under any special condition Capacitance is between line & ground of large motors heaters filter capacitors and can inject or induce 
1 amp or more in the grounding conductor on a project .

I always wondered about return current whats returned just what the output was or does induced stray current also return to what source it never had started from in the beginning .
Since I don't know what inductance is or capacitance maybe you can help if you agree if not just tell me iam BS . 
IG this 
YES / NO


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well at least you give good reason for why you don't agree with me I respect that and you do spell good .
> 
> Ground loops do not cause problems if we what ?
> 
> 1# None of the wires in the loop carry any current .
> 2# The loop is not exposed to any magnetic field .
> 3# There is no radio signal interference nearby.
> 
> And a standard ground can do what an IG can to fix that.
> 
> 
> 
> Try and find any place on earth with that. LOL There is just some places who have more of that then others which can be excessive .
> 
> Correct, some have more interference, some less.
> 
> 
> By the way I don't work at burger king its a bigger job.
> 
> The bigger jobs are highly specialized. Those screen rooms are a giveaway very strict requirements are needed where IGs are a drop in the bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> One single Computer switching would you believe can spike the neutral line to 4 amps which can induce a voltage in the ground conductor . agree - yes no ?
> 
> Yes, but in a properly wired system the hot will also spike to 4 amps. Power in power out. Because the power flows in opposing directions you get counter EMFs where the magnetic fields mutually cancel each other out. (think, why wont an amp clamp read a 2 wire lamp cord or two wires at once?) Nearly all magnetic fields never go past the 2 wires. Now if you ground that neutral the current flowing through it will drop. So now if a hot is 4 amps, the neutral may be 2 amps. That is an imbalance that wont cancel out completely. Will this cause problems? You bet! However, we all know that's an issue in itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, there is this. Capacitive inductance, where this will induce a small current in the neutral and ground. In an IG, does the insulated ground not sit in the same conduit or cable assembly? Now take a regular ground, is it not the same deal? In both cases IG and standard the hot will have capacitive potential in relation to ground. That capacitive potential will cause a very small current in the ground wire be it IG or not. There is no way to eliminate it. (Think a role of 14/3 romex, black and white with 120, and a high impedance meter that reads voltage on the red wire) That's classic capacitive inductance. Nothing will stop it. In fact, in detail an insulated IG acts more like an antenna since its so isolated (from service to floating equipment), where as a regular ground wire or conduit has contact with more things like other conduits, building steel and non IG equipment. Any induced current from the hot (which is micro amps if not milliamps) has more places to 'spread out' so to speak. All good antennas are isolated, no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even a small induced voltage can cause a large current in a ground conductor because resistance and induction are low . agree- yes no ?
> 
> Resistance in relation to what? Induced voltage from what? This statement is far to vague.
> 
> If we are talking an average circuit, the combined length, wire dielectric properties, surface area ect ect will lead to a pico or micro farad value that will only lead to micro amps of current from capacitive reactance. At most, milliamps in hundreds of feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What or how does a ground wire become induced by others near current carrying conductors running long lengths untwisted .Best example Tray
> cables
> or raceways in buildings .
> 
> Inductive reactance and capacitive reactance. But, in a properly wired system, that is small. Capacitive reactance contributions are small to as I mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you believe I could make a insulated copper conductor insulation glow meaning put out light at some voltage and frequency ? yes /no
> 
> 
> Elaborate on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok in my thoughts tonite I hope its spelled correctly
> 
> Grounding paths if all the neutral wire and all connections have a combined Z
> much smaller than the paralleled grounding conductor paths then that portion of the return current which splits into these ground paths can be neglected ?
> yes /no
> 
> 
> Elaborate, the sentence structure is a bit cloudy.
> 
> 
> Can we say commonly or under any special condition Capacitance is between line & ground of large motors heaters filter capacitors and can inject or induce
> 1 amp or more in the grounding conductor on a project .
> 
> Its between everything. And 1 amp is way, way to high for most applications. Even whole feeders. Ok filters caps in many large machines combined. However, that would be more like the whole building which is insignificant in that most case since its the whole of something very large. and again, 1 amp is rare.
> 
> 
> But here is the kicker, if you really wanted to nock down ground currents, run a balanced system. Most are to a greater degree. 3 phase MWBC with phases, all in even length? Balanced circuit! In fact, in a feeder, where all the conductors are present such as all 3 phases and neut from the source , the ground currents from capacitive reactance as a whole go down. Why? Symmetrical cancellation. Vector math proves that.
> 
> Take 3 capacitors of even micro fards. Ok 250uf at 120/208 or 277/480. Connect them in wye, and ground the center. Now amp clamp that center. It will be in the milli amp range if not less. Put a 60 watt light bulb between center and ground and it will not light. Take one out leaving just 2 phases. Current will shoot up to many, many amps. Bulb will light up. A feeder with 250uf phase to ground would be more in the miles range, but still, because its even between phases cancelation takes place. In fact, its the reason why in MV, HV and EHV with underground cables the ground screens are transposed between phases (they rotate around) in a good deal of installs.
> 
> 
> Its that principal of symmetrical component cancelation and phase zero sequence values that make balanced power systems so effective in audio. If you want a clean ground balance everything and it will cancel. Be it current, inductance, capacitance ect. An IG doesn't do that.
> 
> 
> Do the math and it works out perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> I always wondered about return current whats returned just what the output was or does induced stray current also return to what source it never had started from in the beginning .
> Since I don't know what inductance is or capacitance maybe you can help if you agree if not just tell me iam BS .
> IG this
> YES / NO


 It goes to its source or impedance components from other phases... but to be honest your sentence structure is so cloudy I can only guess what you are referencing.


If you really, really wanted clean power:

1. shielded transformer 
2. no wiring errors or standing faults (you got this you are all set)
3. balanced power set ups
4. twisted conductors in feeders/ branch circuits
5. RMT conduit

3, 4 and 5 for 99% of applications are overkill never being needed. 1. is a good idea in when dealing with sensitive electronics.

IGs don't even contribute to this.


----------



## piperunner

*signals*

Well now this is just me thinking out the issue today grounding is out of date with the systems designed today we can sit here debating all year .

To me return current on a signal is the path of low Z it doesn't get canceled out because loops and long common grounding is a joke in a conduit .

It goes in any direction think about signals at a high frequency .
And the effects of impedance on conductors.

Nothing can be separated totally grounding wise unless you do not follow the NEC.

When low frequency and high frequency systems combine its trouble .

use of a common ground for signal distribution is not good like a normal SG because its at a different frequency current amplitude voltage drop is limited by signal current on ground.
I see effective impedance path not resistance of conductor because a wire becomes a capacitor or a inductor at high frequency at least that's what I was schooled in the old Navy days .

I don't agree on your canceled effect between neutral to ground on signal circuits when it comes down to data or RF signals sorry .

Ground circuits in a loop or induced allowing ground currents to flow even micro effect data my friend and any signal .

Induced noise voltage in my book I see magnetic coupling which and results into noise on the ground .

We need a separate grounding system we need to change the NEC .

At least you talk to me civil I don't get that much on this forum I like to look at this as a discussion not a NEC battle forget the NEC .


----------



## chicken steve

I analogize the underlying theory here as either_ bird on a wire_ , or_ bird in a faraday cage_ schools of thought.

Each has it's pros/cons .


~CS~


----------



## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well now this is just me thinking out the issue today grounding is out of date with the systems designed today we can sit here debating all year .
> 
> Then how should it be designed? Why do you believe its out of date?
> 
> To me return current on a signal is the path of low Z it doesn't get canceled out because loops and long common grounding is a joke in a conduit .
> 
> An IG has higher Z alone. Its insulated all the way back to the source. A standard ground has many additional inadvertent paths over and IG. In fact, in most commercial applications if you lost a ground or a piece of conduit broke it would probably still clear a standard breaker because of the contact with steal beams, appliances connected to metal piping, conduit straps parelling conduit together attached to metal structures.
> 
> 
> Ok there is the theory external ground paths may raise inductive Z during short circuits (ie ground wire outside of conduit/pvc raise impedance over being in it). But that would be only during fault clearing.
> 
> However, the small 0.05 milli amp leakage from an appliance isn't going to make a difference in this.
> 
> It goes in any direction think about signals at a high frequency .
> And the effects of impedance on conductors.
> 
> Correct, high frequency signals behave differently under impedance comparable to 60hz. But again, you IG is a higher Z over an standard ground.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing can be separated totally grounding wise unless you do not follow the NEC.
> 
> When low frequency and high frequency systems combine its trouble .
> 
> Correct. But why isolate anything? Why? I see IG equipment and people think its isolated. However, again, all that shielded cable bonds everything together. One piece of equipment touches something metal like a shelf its over. You no longer have an iso ground.
> 
> Noise mitigation is more about the design of the equipment itself. In fact, with everything now going fiber optic digital it makes no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> use of a common ground for signal distribution is not good like a normal SG because its at a different frequency current amplitude voltage drop is limited by signal current on ground.
> I see effective impedance path not resistance of conductor because a wire becomes a capacitor or a inductor at high frequency at least that's what I was schooled in the old Navy days .
> 
> Being honest its a poor explanation of the theory.
> 
> 
> I don't agree on your canceled effect between neutral to ground on signal circuits when it comes down to data or RF signals sorry .
> 
> You are correct. Data transfer is different. But what holds true for a regular ground is the same for an ISO. Ground should never help in signal transfer data. That's why cable have their own ground shield with their own specs. A branch EGC is just to protect life and property.
> 
> Ok, true in the old days radios used ground to help pick up radio signals. Many old 2 wire plugs had a resistor in the radio (or even a direct bond in some cases) where the neutral jumped to the internal metal parts/circuits.
> 
> However, in data transmission it no longer holds true.
> 
> My point was, regarding the cancellation, that if your 60hz components don't cancel, you end up with 60hz fields being induced into data circuits. Those 60 hz fields ruin data transfer. That's where the dirty ground notion comes from in most cases and what IGs where trying to solve.
> 
> That is my primary point.
> 
> Ground circuits in a loop or induced allowing ground currents to flow even micro effect data my friend and any signal .
> 
> Induced noise voltage in my book I see magnetic coupling which and results into noise on the ground .
> 
> We need a separate grounding system we need to change the NEC .
> 
> I would really like to hear you proposals/changes.
> 
> 
> At least you talk to me civil I don't get that much on this forum I like to look at this as a discussion not a NEC battle forget the NEC .


 
Ok, NEC aside. Show my papers that explain why an IG is better than a regular ground. Links, anything. I would be curious to see how it really works.


----------



## Big John

meadow said:


> Ok, NEC aside. Show my papers that explain why an IG is better than a regular ground. Links, anything. I would be curious to see how it really works.


 Exactly. All this discussion about whether voltage or current may exist on a non-current-carrying conductor really misses the point.


----------



## Meadow

Big John said:


> Exactly. All this discussion about whether voltage or current may exist on a non-current-carrying conductor really misses the point.


IEEE actually had a paper that said they were only good in some cases, but in some actually mentioned it made problems worse. Basically as a whole no difference was made. I hope someone can dig it up.


----------



## chicken steve

Methinks we're a tad complacent about the physics of 'lectrickity we're used to, perhaps if we could crank up the wardenclyffe tower......? 

~CS~


----------



## piperunner

Well Meadow since your the only one who gave any input besides it wont work and discussed this .

There is no papers on this subject that says yes its a good IG ground and then there is mixed feelings about how it really helps or doesn't its unsafe its due to ground loops which current can flow on a tiny data cable . 

I think it should be removed from the code book .


If I designed a system to use a IG that everything on that circuit must internally be design to bond itself totally completely that would include the passing of data from each .Any internal or external cabling connections.

It must not touch or have any contact with any other grounds totally isolated which I mean metal frames of equipment non related but tied together if its a signal or data related to equipment .

The floor it sits on must be a isolated floor no contact to floor or any ground point . Rubber isolation pad mounted no conduit cable connections.

Nothing electrical can be connected on that independent service just that isolated equipment . 

Isolation transformers to keep the neutral and grounds separate from normal SG .

Its own power its own UPS its own grounded independent service. 
All signals pass thur filters on every cable .

All AC power is filtered thur power supply voltage regulated .

A room for equipment that has complete EMI RF protection .

All signal communications must be light fiber .

All branch power twisted triplex type stranded wire only copper.

All grounding jumpers and ground connections made with Litz wire. 


Who does this I don't want to answer this .


----------



## Big John

This thread is a mess. Unfortunately, my position remains unchanged. The fact that we're 173 posts deep with basically no practical examples that justify IGs (save for one extremely unique installation in a transmission facility) says to me that I'm probably on the right track thinking most IGs are bogus.

My opinion could still be changed, but I'd have to see evidence a whole lot more compelling than what's been said here.


----------



## Meadow

Big John said:


> This thread is a mess. Unfortunately, my position remains unchanged. The fact that we're 173 posts deep with basically no practical examples that justify IGs (save for one extremely unique installation in a transmission facility) says to me that I'm probably on the right track thinking most IGs are bogus.
> 
> My opinion could still be changed, but I'd have to see evidence a whole lot more compelling than what's been said here.


Ok now you've peaked my curiosity. :laughing:


----------



## Big John

meadow said:


> Ok now you've peaked my curiosity. :laughing:


 The one Cuba Pete talks about. He never clarified when I asked, but it sounds like he works on an antenna facility where there exists a lot of possibility for ground-return-current.

Yeah, in an environment like that, IGs might be necessary, as might a lot of other measures to prevent stray current. You know as well as I do that is inapplicable to 99.9% of IG installations.


----------



## piperunner

Big John said:


> The one Cuba Pete talks about. He never clarified when I asked, but it sounds like he works on an antenna facility where there exists a lot of possibility for ground-return-current.
> 
> Yeah, in an environment like that, IGs might be necessary, as might a lot of other measures to prevent stray current. You know as well as I do that is inapplicable to 99.9% of IG installations.



Well John yes there is other installations like Cuba Petes which have lots of radio transmission why do you think we have all that isolation inside the building .
I dont claim 
to know it all but ive seen some odd ball work and I mean stuff we work on is not your everyday box store if you get my drift .

Not to offend anyone but there is places who can over ride the NEC because they supply there own power they can disconnect totally from the grid . We have are own power plant on site so that in itself tells you were under a different inspection plan.

They are a independent secured government facility and rule what they do on there property basically a electrical inspector 80 % of the time and theres 20 % he can not come on site to sign off on .

So its what the design team designs since there engineers they rule . 

On the street the engineer of record rules over any electrical inspector once the paper trail goes in the mix.

Any inspector will tell you if you get me a signed letter stating this you can do it .:thumbup:


----------



## chicken steve

Authority doesn't trump theory Pipe dude, but it does have a certain 'shut yer piehole' effect


~CS~


----------



## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> ...
> 
> Not to offend anyone but there is places who can over ride the NEC because they supply there own power they can disconnect totally from the grid . We have are own power plant on site so that in itself tells you were under a different inspection plan.


While the AHJ can exempt anyone they want to, the code text does not exempt you just because you make your own power. The code text only exempts regulated power utilities for the equipment they use to generate and distribute the power.



> They are a independent secured government facility and rule what they do on there property basically a electrical inspector 80 % of the time and theres 20 % he can not come on site to sign off on .


Yes, many times government facilities are not under any of the local building codes. In fact in the state of Illinois, schools get their permits from the State Board of Education and the local building codes do not apply...the local inspectors don't even get to inspect.



> So its what the design team designs since there engineers they rule .
> 
> On the street the engineer of record rules over any electrical inspector once the paper trail goes in the mix.
> 
> Any inspector will tell you if you get me a signed letter stating this you can do it .:thumbup:


Yes, 90.4 permits that, but there is nothing that says the AHJ has to accept the letter from an engineer. Often they do, but it is up to the AHJ and sometimes the AHJ's attorney...the AHJ has increased liability anytime they use 90.4. Of course if it is one of the government facilities that are not under the authority of the local AHJ they can do what ever their rules say they can do.


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## Meadow

Anyone know why government facilities get their own way? Are their systems really that different or exotic?


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## piperunner

meadow said:


> Anyone know why government facilities get their own way? Are their systems really that different or exotic?



Well I would say there different as to installing good quality 
work and usually not your just get by mini code rule .
So they can expand later in the future.

To say they violate a code rule because a inspector lets them sign it off with a engineer approval is not wrong its a better install then the code rule .

But were iam working now is exotic to any standard job grounding is over kill feeders are over kill everything installed is larger then it needs to be we even have panels 800amp with no circuits there spares .

Shields are not normal like this job RF EMF MW transmission is a major factor its a night mare to keep up with the specs.

Basically you toss the code book in the trash every neutral is 200% every ground is a IG all breakers are GFI generally its like every area has a full back up system the generator is over kill the UPS & PDU are fully operational fuel cells who has that not many jobs ive seen. If needed they can run all day and all night . So yes to your question its not your normal job.


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## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> ...
> Basically you toss the code book in the trash every neutral is 200% every ground is a IG all breakers are GFI generally its like every area has a full back up system the generator is over kill the UPS & PDU are fully operational fuel cells who has that not many jobs ive seen. If needed they can run all day and all night. ...


How is that tossing the code book in the trash??? None of that violates the code rules. Sure it exceeds the code rules, but the code is not being violated. The code is not a design standard...it is a minimum requirement for electrical safety...going beyond is only a design issue, not a code issue.


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## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> How is that tossing the code book in the trash??? None of that violates the code rules. Sure it exceeds the code rules, but the code is not being violated. The code is not a design standard...it is a minimum requirement for electrical safety...going beyond is only a design issue, not a code issue.



Well Don I know iam old and gray and over 60 years old .
When I post on here don't ever take me the wrong way it seems you and others do on this site. 

I just say what's on my mind and I don't have people skills I don't spell correctly I cant explain my thoughts like others do because I don't write very well .That's because when I went to school we didn't have spell check and we never took English and grammar .I started as a electrician in the 11th grade in a trade program so I never went to school much I worked in high school I don't have a degree in the arts . Plus iam from Edison New Jersey and don't know how to talk any other way .

Its just that words or how I put them people get there feathers flying no one can joke on this forum or talk like we do at work or normally on the street . Its just a electricians site for god sakes take a pill.

When I don't agree with all on this forum about a subject they start the gang banging which is lots of fun .But just recite the code but don't discuss the theory .

Its just a expression toss the code out the door we say that a lot at work because were not going to use the code book per say on any job 98% of the time so get real buddy don't take everything I say as hard facts . We do use it oops .

I said in my posts I don't agree with the IG theory its my thoughts its my own electrical thoughts . Iam not going to google it its my theory you want facts you look it up .

As others have commented on what I know about electrical I just laugh it off because i started a long time ago in this trade i also went to electricians school in the union and in the Navy . 

And as a kid was a old Ham operator been around radios and transmitters all my life built lots of stuff over the years WN2MQX 
google that call sign you can check my name when i started in radio.
Not like the Hams today who buy there gear we made ours back then.
And a ground that's insulated that is separate and runs back to the service is a lot different then a regular ground trust me .

Separate it ! conduit is a antenna a tube of EMT is in fact a great Antenna for picking up RF MW transmission .



Its not the ground loops its not the bad or the good issues that we have in the mix on a site that's normal but if the system is working properly when installed and a new job not some fly by nite job it doesn't help eliminate data issues it does trust me . A job that's just a store or home depo its not that important meaning a IG .
Were talking a multi billion dollar government electrical system not a mom and pops system.
I think most posters need to read about data transmission or maybe pick up a little info on radio transmission mirco wave transmission its what we have today .

It does in fact effect the ground it is induced in the ground wire of a branch circuit in conduit or pvc . In fact most transmission MW today is killing us yes its a issue that is covered up that's me talking were polluting the electrical systems but whos going to fix it no one.


In fact micro waves are a big issue today its all over and its getting to be a problem . Mixing electrical power and data transmission has and will be a problem you can send a FM frequency directly into a 120 volt branch circuit live and pick it up on that circuit . The AC is the carrier the radio wave is the wave shape .It does not get canceled out like power frequency its not on the neutral its induced this effects the ground shields on the frames of large electronic systems .

It changes the wave shape of the AC power it effects the pure AC sign wave 
which in fact is damaging to wire insulation and anything now gets a odd supply of power which effects your data .

This effects the data output of the load being supplied by the AC power effected and trust me its not good so they want to keep as much grounding separate from the normal grounding . But it depends on the level of transmission not your wi fi on that desk top.

Yes there all tied into the same system but just that little run of IG ground wire that runs back to the point can help eliminate some not all issues . As to resistance the IG is not just a wire a low or high point ohm wise its a ground plane to electronics at frequency much higher and that includes data transmission . Its a return a ground plane look up the word dipole that might help you understand better what happens .
Check out wave length on transmission to wire length of anything above 40 KHZ 
I do agree that is not perfect but it does work in most cases and if you isolate the AC input from other AC power your better isolated from electrical systems motors freq drives ballast ect ect .

Iam enjoying my three days off .


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## don_resqcapt19

piperunner said:


> Well Don I know iam old and gray and over 60 years old .
> When I post on here don't ever take me the wrong way it seems you and others do on this site. ...


So am I, but not much gray as I don't have much hair.
As far as taking you the wrong way, I can only comment on the words that I read, not the ideas you may have intended to convey to the reader.



> ... Its just a expression toss the code out the door we say that a lot at work because were not going to use the code book per say on any job 98% of the time so get real buddy don't take everything I say as hard facts . We do use it oops . ...


I guess my point is that it appears that the installations you talk about are in compliance with the minimum standards set by the NEC, but the actual design and install goes beyond, far beyond in some cases, that minimum standard. I just don't see that as tossing out the code...to me tossing out the code is an installation that does not comply with the minimum standards as found in the NEC.


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## piperunner

don_resqcapt19 said:


> So am I, but not much gray as I don't have much hair.
> As far as taking you the wrong way, I can only comment on the words that I read, not the ideas you may have intended to convey to the reader.
> 
> I guess my point is that it appears that the installations you talk about are in compliance with the minimum standards set by the NEC, but the actual design and install goes beyond, far beyond in some cases, that minimum standard. I just don't see that as tossing out the code...to me tossing out the code is an installation that does not comply with the minimum standards as found in the NEC.


Well Don yes we exceed the NEC on every job its designed by space engineers who I think have it together . 

Yes they make mistakes but its a minor one at times when it comes to electrical they don't . 

Some jobs are over kill the one were on now is like the worst for odd things we do .


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## Meadow

piperunner said:


> Well Don yes we exceed the NEC on every job its designed by space engineers who I think have it together .
> 
> Yes they make mistakes but its a minor one at times when it comes to electrical they don't .
> 
> Some jobs are over kill the one were on now is like the worst for odd things we do .


Have they ever explained the reasoning behind all the extra copper products? No saying they aren't smart, but Im curious behind the science.


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## piperunner

CFL said:


> I work in the same areas as pipe runner and I know his company. We compete on most jobs. I know plenty of people just like him, many in my company. Somehow by spouting out a bunch of bull**** in language nobody can comprehend, the higher ups will not argue for fear of being wrong and embarrassed. This enables this person to rise through the ranks and become the go-to expert. Eventually, I think these people start believing themselves and turn into what we have here.
> 
> As far as these IG's go, I work for Space and Defense contractors and their IG systems are all f'd up. Anything new I install does not contain IG's and honestly, I don't even read the copy/paste specs. They have all kinds of stupid govt specs that are almost never implemented correctly. The ground guru at one facility is a total joke and I have ignored his advice always.
> 
> Many data centers I work in have no IG's, and somehow everything works. Most other data centers had IG's at one point, but EC's have since f'd them all up. Everything still works somehow.
> 
> Piperunner, you have to know that most of the guys in this thread, including me, understand the theory behind IG's. The one person who appears to know the least is you. This is because the language you use is so strange and your answers are never appropriate. You seem to repeat yourself instead of trying to make a more effective argument. Just because you work on large projects does not make you special. Part of my job is to come behind you guys and fix things. I got to my position by knowing yours first. Chill out.:thumbsup:


 Well your making statements that are real funny CFL our company has a service dept that goes back for anything two years on everything we install free plus if theres any issues with any work we go back and fix it free .

My company will go back 7 years if it needs to make a owner happy your full of it . To say that is funny what did you fix because all our work is inspected by city or county so what your saying is they missed it or were shotty contractor . That's why we make 185 million a year bro .

The size of our company anyone knows your going to have a problem and I know your just making this up for brownie points so get real .

If you cant understand a IG ground that's your problem plus name a job that you went to and did your rework for us.


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## piperunner

meadow said:


> Have they ever explained the reasoning behind all the extra copper products? No saying they aren't smart, but Im curious behind the science.


Well yes by a TLC engineer low impedance ground plane KEY WORD which is all the extra copper that is attached to every ground bar mounting in every electrical room thats all 62 # plus transformers connect there bonding jumper on secondary side which is a grounding system in itself . 

Another key word is voltage drop across neutral to ground do to unbalance neutrals do to electrical issues with both modes induced voltage drop from neutral to ground is not limited to line to ground voltage .
A shunt to earth can exist if and when voltage exceeds the level of source .

He also said that what we normally see is 3 phase and that nothing is in phase at times do to induced voltages at other frequency's on neutrals and ground .

Odd currents don't cancel voltage on non phases there not from the source itself but exist on the ground .

That unequal balance of circuit impedance that no balance can ever be equal on a 3 phase system induced voltage on neutral can exceed from the source to a level much higher . 

That there is no balance on any circuit branch in your system ever you just think there is and you can not measure this impedance capacitance on any branch circuit it does not ever equal Z of you source impedance .

Its impossible to detect measure or define what is going on from ground to earth unless you use a scope attached to earth and a ground rod 24 hours 7 days a week .
That's me talking .

But you can measure voltage from neutral to ground rod but not on a resis job you need some noise.

Our low .0001 ohm ground rod which is not a made up number trust me on every job we get less than 1 ohms .

It will trip a breaker it depends were it is in reference to the impedance of copper wire to ground rod to earth. And that's at 600 volts or less


That gives you a very low impedance at ground rod .

As I said before were not doing a common resis job :thumbup:


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## Walkman

This was so entertaining to watch the "troll-on -troll" action that I almost bust a gut!!! effen pete and piperunner neck and neck!!!!!

I didn't even have to actually read all the BS that Pete was spouting and the responses to almost spew the quality Canadian Whisky that I've been sipping.

What fun!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Too bad some of you guys got pulled into this nonsensical debate.

Don, CS, big John, Mac, Meadow: you know what they say about wrestling with pigs, you both get muddy but the pig likes it!!!!!! 

Let these wankers row their own boat. I got them on ignore so I won't be seeing their nonsensical crap! 

Sorry for bumping this post but ...


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## piperunner

Well here some more BS which is why we need a lower resistance to earth on our grounding system .


We have one building with multiple services lets say 6# 4000 amp mains with tie breaker sections total of three on the normal source each a separate transformer to each of the 6 section mains 6 transformers located in one yard the owner who has his own power on site .

Each building and were talking miles of separate buildings on site which have the same service size or less can if a problem exist on a neutral or ground can transfer its voltage via ground rod to the next . 

How a bad connection a lost neutral a bad grounding system chill water piping cold water piping a high resistance is bad news on a grounding system .

It can re route current because it will flow in any direction it takes to get back if you cut its path off .

If you think that's bull you need to go back and read more up on grounding 
more . High resistance a higher voltage drop on a neutral to ground wire or ground electrode wire which like I said can be at any frequency were not including the primary side but its ground included in the system.


Think open neutral or a high resistance neutral issue during a normal day 
open will be a major loss the high resistance my not be detected and hopefully the GFI sensors will trip the relays .

But in a tie breaker install during a issue when you flip over to the good side 
things don't work perfectly . Current flows to all paths on return not just the one that doesn't work anymore . 
The best way to do this is with lots of ground rods in place in the event of a major failure during a normal nice sunny day at work and have no issues like a multi million dollar loss of equipment because the code said its ok at 25 ohms .

This is just mor BS to dazzle you guys . Were I work if it can happen they already have a plan it seems the code book is not doing that .


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## zen

With any government work tax payers are paying the bill .the theory behind the method is the designers would be our of a job if they value engineered .plus the 10 people who have to ok every screw u turn might have to go do their job. Did a job for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, didnt meet one persob who wasnt screwing tax payers to death. So if anyone doesnt agree with the overkill dont be sad its more money for u and u do agree with the overkill then embrace it ur paying for it

Sent from my SPH-D710BST using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## AllWIRES

Walkman said:


> This was so entertaining to watch the "troll-on -troll" action that I almost bust a gut!!! effen pete and piperunner neck and neck!!!!! I didn't even have to actually read all the BS that Pete was spouting and the responses to almost spew the quality Canadian Whisky that I've been sipping. What fun!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: Too bad some of you guys got pulled into this nonsensical debate. Don, CS, big John, Mac, Meadow: you know what they say about wrestling with pigs, you both get muddy but the pig likes it!!!!!! Let these wankers row their own boat. I got them on ignore so I won't be seeing their nonsensical crap! Sorry for bumping this post but ...


Second thread I've read about this dude ignoring people.... Lame. Bet he's a retired SSgt.


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## MTW

piperunner said:


> Well here some more BS which is why we need a lower resistance to earth on our grounding system .
> 
> 
> We have one building with multiple services lets say 6# 4000 amp mains with tie breaker sections total of three on the normal source each a separate transformer to each of the 6 section mains 6 transformers located in one yard the owner who has his own power on site .
> 
> Each building and were talking miles of separate buildings on site which have the same service size or less can if a problem exist on a neutral or ground can transfer its voltage via ground rod to the next .
> 
> How a bad connection a lost neutral a bad grounding system chill water piping cold water piping a high resistance is bad news on a grounding system .
> 
> It can re route current because it will flow in any direction it takes to get back if you cut its path off .
> 
> If you think that's bull you need to go back and read more up on grounding
> more . High resistance a higher voltage drop on a neutral to ground wire or ground electrode wire which like I said can be at any frequency were not including the primary side but its ground included in the system.
> 
> 
> Think open neutral or a high resistance neutral issue during a normal day
> open will be a major loss the high resistance my not be detected and hopefully the GFI sensors will trip the relays .
> 
> But in a tie breaker install during a issue when you flip over to the good side
> things don't work perfectly . Current flows to all paths on return not just the one that doesn't work anymore .
> *The best way to do this is with lots of ground rods in place *in the event of a major failure during a normal nice sunny day at work and have no issues like a multi million dollar loss of equipment because the code said its ok at 25 ohms .
> 
> This is just mor BS to dazzle you guys . Were I work if it can happen they already have a plan it seems the code book is not doing that .


Wow...just wow.That is so ignorant and actually dangerous to believe that and to be teaching other people that. Thankfully people who actually understand the purpose of grounding and bonding don't believe your nonsense and don't take you seriously.


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## MTW

piperunner said:


> Our low .0001 ohm ground rod which is not a made up number trust me on every job we get less than 1 ohms .



There's no chance in the world that you achieve that kind of reading to an earth connection. None whatsoever. You can't even get a reading that low with a pure metallic path on a building wiring system. You're just flat out lying now.


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## Fibes

MTW said:


> There's no chance in the world that you achieve that kind of reading to an earth connection. None whatsoever. You can't even get a reading that low with a pure metallic path on a building wiring system. You're just flat out lying now.


I missed that, .0001  he really is full of S.


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## Pharon

I can't believe we're still talking about this like it's an important topic.


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## cuba_pete

*Rude...*



Walkman said:


> I didn't even have to actually read all the BS that Pete was spouting and the responses to almost spew the quality Canadian Whisky that I've been sipping.


Well, now you're just being rude. You cannot understand something if you don't bother to take the time to begin with!

Taking into consideration that you don't even understand harmonic structure and how to even take basic measurements (based on one of your other posts), I don't see how you could have any understanding of a complex grounding installation.

Another example of an "electrician" who wouldn't get in the door.:whistling2:

Have another drink...on the job, no doubt.

Go rope a house...


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## AllWIRES

cuba_pete said:


> Well, now you're just being rude. You cannot understand something if you don't bother to take the time to begin with! Taking into consideration that you don't even understand harmonic structure and how to even take basic measurements (based on one of your other posts), I don't see how you could have any understanding of a complex grounding installation. Another example of an "electrician" who wouldn't get in the door.:whistling2: Have another drink...on the job, no doubt. Go rope a house...


I take it you've never met an Air Force "electrician".


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## zen

This is what happens when there arent any new post...

Sent from my SPH-D710BST using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## wildleg

meadow said:


> Anyone know why government facilities get their own way? Are their systems really that different or exotic?


Any client with deep, deep pockets can let engineers loose and . . . presto chango, you get some crazy specs. To be kind, though, there are a lot of government engineers that specialize in stuff that the NEC just doesn't cover, so when it comes to protecting bunkers, weapon storage areas, and areas where explosives are manufactured and tested, and three letter type agencies, you just do what you are told. Good engineers draw pretty good plans, and explain what they want pretty clearly, so it's just a matter of dollars and cents. I don't know about the other stuff, and the big jobs that were being discussed, but I'm sure it's similar in nature.


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## Bad Electrician

wildleg said:


> Any client with deep, deep pockets can let engineers loose and . . . presto chango, you get some crazy specs. To be kind, though, there are a lot of government engineers that specialize in stuff that the NEC just doesn't cover, so when it comes to protecting bunkers, weapon storage areas, and areas where explosives are manufactured and tested, and three letter type agencies, you just do what you are told. Good engineers draw pretty good plans, and explain what they want pretty clearly, so it's just a matter of dollars and cents. I don't know about the other stuff, and the big jobs that were being discussed, but I'm sure it's similar in nature.


And the number of projects I have seen with "STATE OF THE ART" equipment, that was bought on sales hype and then either does not function or does not function as claimed is sickening.


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## cuba_pete

AllWIRES said:


> I take it you've never met an Air Force "electrician".


No, not yet...I work for the Navy. Some Electrician's Mates, Construction Electricians (Seabees), etc., do have some odd concepts. I work with what I'm given and have been successful so far. I teach the indoc course, with all applicable references, at my command.

For the IG questions I start with the NEC (2011), then move on to the Emerald book, then the MIL-STD's and HDBK's. Apparently nobody in my job before me tried that route...weird.


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## chicken steve

piperunner said:


> My company will go back 7 years if it needs to make a owner happy your full of it . To say that is funny what did you fix because all our work is inspected by city or county so what your saying is they missed it or were shotty contractor . That's why we make 185 million a year bro .
> 
> .


So you're claim is your company _size_ constitutes electrical _integrity_ Pipe dude?

do tell.....:whistling2:

~CS~


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## MTW

chicken steve said:


> So you're claim is your company _size_ constitutes electrical _integrity_ Pipe dude?
> 
> do tell.....:whistling2:
> 
> ~CS~


I wouldn't believe much, if anything, that Piperunner says. His company is one of the largest in Florida so I'd say just on sheer work volume, human nature, and the law of averages, they hack stuff up once in a while.


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## chicken steve

I've seen how _'big companies'_ who roll into my turf operate MTW

~CS~


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