# Not an argument, just a discussion...



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Majack16 said:


> Why would someone work Non Union over Union?


So they can work, not sit.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

So they can be well rounded in every aspect of this trade.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

There is no way I can answer why I choose to work non-union without starting crap because someone will be offended.

At it's most basic it is this, the local union guys always treated me like chit anytime I had any dealing with them. I decided I did not want to join a bunch of assholes. 

Be pissed about my answer if you want, but you did ask and that has been my experience.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I decided I did not want to join a bunch of assholes.


You didn't have to join them, hell you have the credentials to be their leader.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The Union schooling is the best thing that can happen to any electrician starting out in the trade.. I have heard that from a bunch of people..

But once the schooling is up you will work only (6) months out of the year if you are lucky..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Majack16 said:


> Why would someone work Non Union over Union?


Back when i tryed to join i was lucky i left the Union hall alive.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Put me in the BBQ camp. I haven't had overly good experiences working union. Pay is much better though. Right now you work for whomever will hire you. Union or otherwise.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You didn't have to join them, hell you have the credentials to be their leader.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


It's a good thing Bob likes you. :laughing:


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Non union all the way.... I don't have to sit and wait on my fat butt for work to call me, If I hate the job, I leave, simple as that.. no penalties, no waiting on the bench, no b.s. That and the way they treated my pops, they can hang one...:no:


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## Rick567 (Mar 3, 2011)

I guess I am biased, I have been working union for the past 18 years with very good results. I like it because of the benefits the health insurance and pension is great. I've swapped contractors over the years and my benefits stays the same. I've have also worked pretty steady over the years but I usually do not turn down work when it comes my way. The other thing you have to look at is, are you happy where you are at, there is bad contractors in each sector and whether or not you are gonna have enough to retire on when you get old and all wrinkled.
Btw not all union guys are assholes. I try to treat everyone equally on my jobs.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

DIdnt get into the union because they didnt' have a family member to get them in.


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## Rick567 (Mar 3, 2011)

henderson14 said:


> DIdnt get into the union because they didnt' have a family member to get them in.


Yes I've heard this was the case maybe still is in some locals but nowadays they want the dues so they will take any one in. If you have the skills to think and get the job done then I think you would have a very good career in the union. I didn't have any family in the union.


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## tweak (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, let me start this off by letting you know that I am a union apprentice, local 494 here in Milwaukee. 
I believe that working a non-union job lets one be more in control of his/her career. I can not speak about every local, but here it seems that regardless of your skills, you are lumped into a particular aspect of the trade - for better or for worse. 
I will be honest - I suck at running conduit. I know this. However, the contractor I am with for the past few jobs has had me do nothing BUT run conduit. I'm not bellyaching, mind you, but if it was up to me, I would try and get into a more controls/automation side of the career because that is what my background is in. Calls for that through our hall, even in the good times, were few and far between. You had to know somebody who knows somebody kind of thing. Even in HVAC controls where at the beginning of my career I had a lot of exposure in.
If I was working non-union, I could go from shop to shop and sell those skills to an employer. I agree, the benefits may not be the same and pay may or may not be the same, but the employee has more of a free hand where he or she works and what type of work they may do.
That being said, I have one more year before turning out, and after that I plan on exercising my GI Bill to obtain an associate's degree in controls and automation. Hopefully I can get to a shop that will be able to put those skills to use. If not, I am going to have to decide which direction I want my career to take - union or non-union.

Just my two cents.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In my case it took me 8 years to get in. Then spent several years on big jobs and putting up with crap by the men that had completed a full apprenticeship and thought less of those that got in the back door.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Brian what do you mean by those that got in the back door...???

Thanks
Frank


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## Rick567 (Mar 3, 2011)

Getting in by the back door means that a person was organized in, meaning they already had the schooling and the experience to not to have to go through the apprenticeship or already have a journeymen's license.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Rick567 said:


> Getting in by the back door means that a person was organized in, meaning they already had the schooling and the experience to not to have to go through the apprenticeship or already have a journeymen's license.


Thanks

So the guys getting in through the back door have done an apprenticeship with a non union employer and have difficulty joining the union..is that correct...???

Frank


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## tweak (Oct 3, 2010)

Yes. Those who "go through the backdoor" are often looked down upon by those who have gone through a union apprenticeship. That being said, I've met top notch guys who were/are non-union just as I have met guys who are top notch union. I don't believe it matters HOW you got your training, I mean we all picked this trade in order to better ourselves and our families. To me, in the end, it doesn't matter how/when/where you picked up the trade, it matters to me that you are in the trade and that's all that matters.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Not an argument? 

Yeah right.

Troll.

I'm not union because I'm better then you, and your a thief for stealing taxpayers money. 

Union guys are all lazy.


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## rosebud1976 (Jul 6, 2010)

Not all union guys are lazy hoss I just turned out here in vegas in may. We hardly ever ran conduit mostly flex and mc even to the feeders. But what I hear is that it saved the contractor money and we were working. So to say union bros are lazy is a faslehood cause the brothers before us fought for our wages.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

........;


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You didn't have to join them, hell you have the credentials to be their leader.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Now that hurts ....... :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rick567 said:


> Btw not all union guys are assholes.


I know and I have worked with some _very_ knowledgeable and professional union members.

Call the assholes the loud minority but it always appeared to me like their actions were all but 'officially' backed by the hall and that really turned me off entirely.

I also like the freedom of being able to cut a 2x4 without hearing some steward cry that I am causing some union members child to starve.


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## Majack16 (Jun 13, 2011)

I worked for a non union company when I first graduated from high school. My experience with them wasnt to great. It seemed like no one wanted to teach me anything because they were job scared and didnt want anyone to further their knowledge. So that lasted about six months and then I went union. I wanted a good education, benefits, and wages. My experience with the union so far has been great. I graduated from the local 26 apprenticeship program which has one of the best training facilities in the country. My last year as an apprentice I made over 70,000. And thats while missing a month and a half for a surgery. This year as a journeyman I have already made over 65,000. Our yearly package with benefits is over 100,000, based on a 40 hour week. Im fortunate right now because work is good with my company. But from what ive seen its usually the lazy ones or the dead weight that goes to the bench first, not that I haven't seen a few good men go, but they were usually the last. I see alot of people say union electricians are lazy, which there are some (and I'm pretty sure every trade union or non union has them). But for the ones that are lazy it doesn't bother me one bit, because when the time comes they will be headed to the bench, and i will continue to make good wages and benefits, while they collect unemployment. Also for as far as the assholes go, I was always told leave your feelings at home.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frank Mc said:


> Brian what do you mean by those that got in the back door...???
> 
> Thanks
> Frank


Worked open shop and tested in in lieu of having family members and flunking your way through apprenticeship school. And while that comment about flunking your war through school, during the period I was trying to get in there were several high profile son’s that did exactly that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Majack16 said:


> I worked for a non union company when I first graduated from high school. My experience with them wasnt to great. It seemed like no one wanted to teach me anything because they were job scared and didnt want anyone to further their knowledge.


I have run into that in open shops and in the local 26, like everything I think that is a product of insecurity in the individual. In my case when they would not teach me I hit the books and aught myself.


As far as lazy, quality, smart or good leader ship that is abundant in the union and open shop. I do believe (at least in our area) the majority of the really good electricians are union. Local 26 in the last 20-25 years reached out to open shop men and tried to organize the better men. Why wouldn’t you work union when for the most part the better pay and benefits are in the union. And the majority of the BS organized men put up with has been curtailed. BUT there are still a few butt heads, but you have that in any field.


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## Rick567 (Mar 3, 2011)

I've usually work for small companies and alwas with union and non-union crews doing the different trades, never had to worry about cutting a stud but I can see how that would piss me off if they said I could not do that. Regarding the slugs, most of the time the guys want to do a good job but you as the Forman have to find out what they are good at and keep them supplied with info and materials. Then if they can't keep up let them go.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frank Mc said:


> Thanks
> 
> So the guys getting in through the back door have done an apprenticeship with a non union employer and have difficulty joining the union..is that correct...???
> 
> Frank


I never did an apprenticeship.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

gold said:


> Not an argument?
> 
> Yeah right.
> 
> ...


:no::no::no::yawn:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rick567 said:


> I've usually work for small companies and alwas with union and non-union crews doing the different trades, never had to worry about cutting a stud but I can see how that would piss me off if they said I could not do that. Regarding the slugs, most of the time the guys want to do a good job but you as the Forman have to find out what they are good at and keep them supplied with info and materials. Then if they can't keep up let them go.


I have only run into that once, and our foreman worked a deal where the carpenters would leave us alone. We put some electric heat in they carpenters shed and loaned them some heavy duty carts. Problem solved, seems the big mouth carpenters calling the hall left that site.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Majack16 said:


> Why would someone work Non Union over Union?


Freedom.

Roger


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have run into that in open shops and in the local 26, like everything I thing that is a product of insecurity in the individual. In my case when they would not teach me I hit the books and aught myself.
> .


As far as lazy, quality, smart or good leader ship that is abundant in the union and open shop. I do believe (at least in our area) the majority of the really good electricians are union. Local 26 in the last 20-25 years reached out to open shop men and tried to organize the better men. Why wouldn’t you work union when for the most part the better pay and benefits are in the union. And the majority of the BS organized men put up with has been curtailed. BUT there are still a few butt heads, but you have that in any field.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Brian for a proactive post.It is my opinion that working union you will make a higher income now and for your future, we have more opportunities for education(paid for by the unions) Yes if you have no intentions of traveling you might ride the books for long periods of time because of our referral system where we let the next person in line on the book take that said job(which relies on personal ethics) When I worked nonunion I was able to continue to search for employment while employed (I had two jobs at once) so I had the freedom to search employment without any concern of the others trying to seek employment. I received less income for the hours I plied and little or no H&W and or retirement.
I am a product of nepotism being third generation and I agree that in some cases it caused the unions grief. The animosity I have experienced of those who organize in, usually has been frustration from those who went through the program.I once worked in Las Vegas on a job a newly organized hand tried to bring drill motors and excessive tools on the job. Situations like this could be rectified with patience with our new members(but this is not always the case.)
I have met hard working, educated journeymen and helpers from both sides it only seems to me that more of the union employee's can afford more in life than the nonunion employees.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

.............


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I have met hard working, educated journeymen and helpers from both sides it only seems to me that more of the union employee's can afford more in life than the nonunion employees.


And if the union and the union contractors are smart (during good times) they will try to hire all the good open shop men, making it harder for open shops to compete.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

1. The union shops here are full of sons of sons of union electricians.
2. I know journeyman that can hardly write, but I'm "unqualified" because I didn't take an algebra course in high school. Even though I scored high marks in all phases of my trade school (including mathmatics). 
3. When the union reps came to the trade school, they flat out lied by telling us that there is NO "testing in", everyone starts at the absolute bottom and works their way up. Even though good friends of mine have been offered testing in at journeyman level.
4. Those same union reps offered $10-12 an hour to start to a room full of 30-40 year old men that had all left $20+ an hour jobs to come to school. But of course, if we could all starve our families through a few years, it would all be "worth it". Can you say "we'll work you till your wages go up then sit you on the bench?"
5. Being told while working in the carpenters union, by a BA, "Why would we waste our time defending you from a BS greivance when you come to work everyday and do your job. We need to save our influence to save Jimbob (lazy MF'R) because he got drunk agian and is about to be fired."
6. Same carpenters union, Steward that I helped keep from being fired early in his career, decided to try to kick me out of my job, and back to night shift over BS politics.
7. Freinds being told to "shut up" or escorted out of meetings by large guys in suits wheen they asked tough questions.

I realize that things going on in the carpenters union is a bit off sides, but it all comes back to BS attitude and politics. If I ever go back to any union, which is doubtful, I will be donating my dues to charity just so the crooked b#stards can't have it.


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## Rick567 (Mar 3, 2011)

The bottom line is if your happy where you are at in this point of your life.


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> I never did an apprenticeship.


You were born with a journeyman card in your hand:thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I worked non-union with my Dad for two years when I got out of the Marines. My Dad had been a union electrician from about 1954 until the recession of 1975. I even went to the ABC school due to the fact that the shop had a couple of PW jobs and needed indentured apprentices.

It became quite apparent that the ABC classes were not a very serious course of study. I was ready to begin my third year when my Dad was offered a position with a non-union shop that was starting out with the former partners of a large union shop in the area.

Me Dad thought I should investigate getting into the union apprenticeship program. I filled out the application and went through all of the testing and interviews. All of the heavy hitters that interviewed me knew my Dad, asked about him and told me that they wished him good luck.

At the time, my Dad became the electrical qualifier for the company and the ended up being the largest electrical contractor in the county. This was never held against me during my apprenticeship.

The union apprenticeship was an incredible experience. It was like a military A school as well as what we used to call 5th phase boot camp.
The knowledge and experience I gained from the school and the Journeyman Wiremen that took the time to shared their knowledge and skills with me set me up to make a nice living for me and my family.
As the years have gone by, some of those guys would end up on my jobs when I was a foremen or General Foremen. 

The guys I worked with were extremely productive and we always were aware that the non-union guys were bidding on the same jobs but were making $5 or $10 an hour less with no benefits. I was trained to get in and get out and do it right the first time. Yeah, we would get some hall trash once in a while or someone with an attitude or a trouble maker. Those guys would not last and be gone very quick. The guys policed themselves very well.

Bottom line is that I got in the IBEW when my dad was qualifying the largest non-union shop in the county and they took us in by scores not by who knew you. Productivity was very high and trouble makers were dealt with by the job foreman.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

kwired said:


> You were born with a journeyman card in your hand:thumbsup:


 I didn't do an apprenticeship, either. I challenged the ticket based on experience.


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## Mrs. Rewire (Jul 17, 2011)

gold said:


> Not an argument?
> 
> Yeah right.
> 
> ...


Coming from a guy who ropes houses all day, you realize you can be easily replaced by a mexican who can learn your job in 2 minutes


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

mrs. Rewire said:


> coming from a guy who ropes houses all day, you realize you can be easily replaced by a mexican who can learn your job in 2 minutes


 Senor Rewire!


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## Current (Jul 4, 2011)

I am a union member, but anyone who has read my posts know that I don't defend the union blindly, I call them out on all their BS. I've even had other union members tell me that there is no way that I can be a member and make me post pics of proof because they didn't believe that a member would say the things that I did. 

With that being said, I think some people have the wrong idea about the work issue. About a year ago I got into it with someone here (I believe Mcclary) about unemployment. To this day I still haven't seen a shred of evidence saying that the unemployment rate in union electrical work is any higher than in non-union electrical work. So when people say things like:



mcclary's electrical said:


> So they can work, not sit.


which coincidentally was said by Mcclary, I have to call BS.

I've said this before and usually most people agree: If you are an electrician that can keep a job with a good non-union electrical contractor, then you would also be able to keep a job with a union electrical contractor. You most likely won't be the guy sitting on the bench. You would be called a "Shop Rocket" or "Ball Washer" by the men who frequently sit the bench, but you will work nonetheless. My hall has 700 men on the bench and a 2 year wait, but there are still 3,000+ men out working, many of which work all year every year. 

Even when a company gets slow and has to lay off core guys, a good electrician would have made connections over the years. Just about every hall that I know of has the "loopholes" to allow jumping the list. The BA's can send their friends out as shop stewards and the contractors can call their friends out as foremen, most locals allow a contractor to pick it's management, and rightly so. I've had this done multiple times and because of that I never sat for more than 2 weeks. Most contractors would rather get someone they know than gamble with the next schmuck off the list.

So in the end, the whole "If you're union you won't work" thing is not very true.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Mrs. Rewire said:


> Coming from a guy who ropes houses all day, you realize you can be easily replaced by a mexican who can learn your job in 2 minutes


Shut up ***...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Current said:


> About a year ago I got into it with someone here (I believe Mcclary) about unemployment. To this day I still haven't seen a shred of evidence saying that the unemployment rate in union electrical work is any higher than in non-union electrical work. So when people say things like:
> 
> which coincidentally was said by Mcclary, I have to call BS.


Oh yeah, you too. Shut up ***


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## Current (Jul 4, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Oh yeah, you too. Shut up ***


That wasn't very nice Jerry.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Current said:


> That wasn't very nice Jerry.


Who ever said I was nice?


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## Current (Jul 4, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Who ever said I was nice?


I know you're a big sweetheart. 

Anyways, back to the discussion, have you found anything to say that there is a higher rate of unemployment in union electrical work than non-union electrical work? If not, then I find it odd for you to still be saying that people choose non-union _"So they can work, not sit"_. 

Also remember that union electrical work only has about 8-12% marketshare, all the rest is non-union. That's a LOT of out of work non-union electrician in the job pool.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I've worked both sides, 4 years nonunion and 15 union. Now on my own nonunion for 7 rears. It was interesting that some estimating software asks if you're union or not. If you answer yes it adds time on to your tasks.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

backstay said:


> I've worked both sides, 4 years nonunion and 15 union. Now on my own nonunion for 7 rears. It was interesting that some estimating software asks if you're union or not. If you answer yes it adds time on to your tasks.


I like how you put in that Freudian Slip in there.

7 rears :laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I like how you put in that Freudian Slip in there.
> 
> 7 rears :laughing:


Those of us in the trade call it a typo.:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

backstay said:


> I've worked both sides, 4 years nonunion and 15 union. Now on my own nonunion for 7 rears. It was interesting that some estimating software asks if you're union or not. If you answer yes it adds time on to your tasks.


4+15+7=26 years in the trade, DUDE YOU ARE OLD.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

41 for me July 5th


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

The Union wants some to do some 'salting' or turn a non union into a union company in order to join. To me that is one of the lowest things someone can do in this trade. That and I dont want to be sitting at home for half the year. Theres jobs where they get 15 guys and then 20 days later they're all back at the hall. After 4 turns at the hall you go to the back of the list and have to wait months for work. This is all of course if you dont know anyone or arent related to anyone, which is going against policy but it happens anyway.

The Union is projected as one thing but in reality its another. I wish it was what it pretends to be.

Sorry but this has been my experience being in a non union company, going union, trying it, getting no where, leaving and going back to non union.

Worked on and off for a year in the union, on jobs where everyone came from the hall and everyone was sent back when the job was done. Left the union and have worked for 4 years steady.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

brian john said:


> 4+15+7=26 years in the trade, DUDE YOU ARE OLD.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> 41 for my July 5th


I started late too, I was 26 when the calling came to me. So that puts me about 52 or so, I forget sometimes. Old age you know!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

backstay said:


> I started late too, I was 26 when the calling came to me. So that puts me about 52 or so, I forget sometimes. Old age you know!


I started at 17.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike in Canada said:


> I didn't do an apprenticeship, either. I challenged the ticket based on experience.


Hi Mike

So were you employed as what the U.S.guys refer to as a "Helper"...???

Why dont the E.C,s put them on as Apprentices (esp if they have had them for a couple of years)...???...Here in Oz only licensed people are allowed to do electrical work...An apprentice is deemed to be licensed but not a helper....

Frank


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frank Mc said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> So were you employed as what the U.S.guys refer to as a "Helper"...???
> 
> ...


The first large company I worked for never mentioned apprenticeship, at 2-1/2 years I got a license and left the large company (they went under) At my next company they did offer and pay for apprenticeship schooling. But seeing as I was licensed I saw no need for schooling, doesn't seem to have hurt me or my advancement in the trade.


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