# understanding union pay



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

nighttrain112 said:


> I've been looking at joining my local for the past week now. Went in and talked to the organizer and he gave me a breakdown of pay, dues and health. Looking at it, I had a few questions about it.
> 
> Base Pay:
> 3rd period JW rate – $17.15 per hour
> ...


PAID BY EMPLOYER, MEANING, YOU DO NOT PAY THE FOLLOWING:


> NEBF – 3% of payroll
> Apprentice Training – 1.3% of payroll
> Administration Fund – .5% of payroll
> NECA Service Charge – 1% of payroll
> ...


$17.15 per hour x hours worked. If 40, you'll gross $696.00 per week. You will pay taxes on that (of course) but none of the above listed benefits are deducted from your pay.



> I understand my pension and dues, but as far as the Fringe Benefits, is all that I would be receiving is my base wage and health benefit?
> 
> nighttrain112
> LU354...maybe


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## nighttrain112 (May 23, 2008)

I understand the $17.15 per hour x 40 hours per week, but the other stuff is where I'm a little confused. The NEBF is one of my pensions and 3% x $17.15 per hour goes to that and is paid by the employer. What about the apprentice training? Does that go to JATC to cover cost for the schooling or does that come to my...and so on, and so forth. What exactly do I get out of these Fringe Benefits????


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

on your check, what you get is that $17.15.hour.

I'm not sure why they gave you some of these figures because they are not considered part of your benefit package. 

What is considered your benefits would be the health and welfare (insurance)and any pension (NEBF) or annuity or retirement fund. The rest are costs charged the employer as being a signatory member of the union contract and does not directly affect the individual but goes to all the expenses associated with the union/contractor symbiosis.



the apprentic training. That is the fund that pays for the apprenticeship. You do not get this money unless your local pays the apprentices to go to school. I have heard of a few but most I am aware of have school at night and you work for a contractor during the day.

don;t forget you will have to pay union dues (in my local we have a working dues (percentage of earnings) and a monthly dues)

I noticed you have something a bit wrong up there. Your first post states:



> 3rd period JW rate – $17.15 per hour


there is no such thing as a 3rd period JW. JW stands for journeyman wireman. You will be a JW, or in our local we are more specific and call it a JIW (journeyman inside wireman). I believe your situation should be termed a 3rd period wireman apprentice.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

$17.15 an hour???

I hope this is 3rd term apprentice pay. There is no way this could be pay for a journeyman.


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## nighttrain112 (May 23, 2008)

yes, it is 3rd term apprentice pay. 58% of Journeyman Inside Wireman rate +$1.00


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

nighttrain112 said:


> I've been looking at joining my local for the past week now. Went in and talked to the organizer and he gave me a breakdown of pay, dues and health. Looking at it, I had a few questions about it.
> 
> Base Pay:
> 3rd period JW rate – $17.15 per hour
> ...


 17.15 an hr will be "on your check" PLUS our union deducts 4% of our gross for the IO (International Organization). Then we pay monthly dues to our local. I am sure yours does the same.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rong said:


> 17.15 an hr will be "on your check" PLUS our union deducts 4% of our gross for the IO (International Organization). Then we pay monthly dues to our local. I am sure yours does the same.


Don't be so sure of the local %'s, it depends on the local wage rate and the number of people within the local. We pay the international and local dues assessment @ 1% of gross. Then bi-yearly dues of 160.00, with 80.00 returned.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

nighttrain112 said:


> I've been looking at joining my local for the past week now. Went in and talked to the organizer and he gave me a breakdown of pay, dues and health. Looking at it, I had a few questions about it.
> 
> Base Pay:
> 3rd period JW rate – $17.15 per hour
> ...


While you "Went in and talked to the organizer", why did you not ask that organizer?

I know, they can be slippery.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Don't be so sure of the local %'s, it depends on the local wage rate and the number of people within the local. We pay the international and local dues assessment @ 1% of gross. Then bi-yearly dues of 160.00, with 80.00 returned.


 I should have said that they will deduct a % of your gross for the IO rather than what our local does. They are all different. Forgot I was talking to a newbie...if I mislead it was _NOT my_ intention. :mellow: Our dues are 26 a month. Our area is very large in area but not alot of members.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

If that is third term apprentice pay....

Then what the hell are you waiting for?? No non-union contractor is going to pay a third termer $17.15 + health to a second year apprentice! Not unless it's the owner's son and the owner is bent on spoiling the brat.

Work a little longer on the 'independent' side. Rope out some more tract homes.

After they make you work tens for eight hours pay this summer, for less per hour, with no health benefits, then cross over as a third year apprentice and know what to be thankful for. There are still sweat shops on the union side, but having health paid up, overtime paid for, and a pension... I feel more secure knowing there is something there at the end of the tunnel. Oh, and I make more on the check, and do more fulfilling work on the union side. 

Once I figured out that I would rather work for someone else the rest of my life, it became crystal clear I needed to be in the union. My father is a businessman, I've seen the nightmares of running a business my whole life, the bankruptcies, how hard it is to find and keep good help, the eighty hour weeks, money lost when people don't pay up and screw you... I've already decided, I don't want to run my own show. I would much rather be the supporting cast to someone like my father who is a smart business man and needs the dependable help.

If you are a people person, who knows the ways of money and could run a successful business, then you have to really think about where you want to go in your future.
If you are honest with yourself, you will probably realize the union is the place for you.

Some advice, don't get sucked into any politics, just be cool with everyone except the mean old geezer, and you will be okay.


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## nighttrain112 (May 23, 2008)

yes, i know that any non-union contractor will not pay $17.15 and health to a second year apprentice. the company that i work for is a good company though. raises every 6 months, holiday and vacation pay, they pay 70% of my health premiums and 100% of my accidental death and disability. i just feel that i'm not being paid for the amount of work that i'm putting out and for the value of my worth with the company.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

You think you produce alot now, and you'll probably continue to produce alot, as long as two rockstars can keep you going strong all day long.

I know a couple guys who can produce like maniacs with high quality, and they've been on the caffeine binge for 20 years with no ill effects. That is unless you call going home at the end of the day and feeling completely destroyed an ill effect. If you get stuck in that rut, you will surely end up wiped out with nothing to show for it. Perhaps in 15 years those mini-mart Extreme Energy Boosters with 20 pills will lose their effect. I've seen guys in their 40's who rope houses, with a meth mouth and a glass pipe getting high in the schulzy (chem toilet) in a last ditch to hold it together.

I'm not saying that's your future, but it has happened to a family guy who used to be a GF on a hi-tech plant, it can happen to anyone.

I don't know what point I was trying to make, but know this, if you bust your hump and don't make any waves on the union side, you're star will shine much brighter and higher than if you were to stay non-union making a fat wad for some company's owner. Well, either way you're making a fat wad for the owners, its just the owners of a union shop are typically shareholders or sophisticated individuals who are very keen on spotting talent and nurturing it. In a non-union situation, you will very well be seen as future competition, ever watch survivor? Ever wonder why it feels like they want to keep you stupid in a non-union shop? If you had the knowledge, you'd have the confidence, and you wouldn't stick around working for less.

I remember when the shop used to get a PW job, there would be infighting among the foremen and each would accuse the others of being buttkissers to get the PW work. I saw the writing on the wall, now I work for PW, no matter where it is, those guys, who are still over on the other side, its too bad if they don't wise up.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

nighttrain112 said:


> yes, i know that any non-union contractor will not pay $17.15 and health to a second year apprentice. the company that i work for is a good company though. raises every 6 months, holiday and vacation pay, they pay 70% of my health premiums and 100% of my accidental death and disability. i just feel that i'm not being paid for the amount of work that i'm putting out and for the value of my worth with the company.


A raise every 6 months sounds wonderful. But what good is a raise from $10.50 to $11.00 when you're already behind the union scale of $17.50? Put quite simply, (and I know every business owner will disagree, but...) the difference between what you get paid and what you're worth is called PROFIT. The less you make the more your company profits. If you want a bigger piece of the slice of pie your boss is alotting you, you need to stand with your fellow workers and unite as a group to form a formidable force against the self-appointed ruler of your dynasty. One on one doesn't cut it because any one person can be replaced. 

It's nice that your shop pays 70% of your medical... but in order to assess that for it's value and worth, you need to know how much coverage you get and what other details are involved to paint a complete picture. WalMart pays part of their employees medical as well, unfortunately the plan requires the employee to pay $175.00 deductables and outrageous co-payments for each and every medical visit, that renders the plan unusable to most employees who are earning less than $9.00 an hour. 

As for accidental death and dismemberment and disability - read that policy very closely. Most of them are worthless in that the chances of you ever needing their coverage are extremely slim.


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A raise every 6 months sounds wonderful. But what good is a raise from $10.50 to $11.00 when you're already behind the union scale of $17.50? Put quite simply, (and I know every business owner will disagree, but...) the difference between what you get paid and what you're worth is called PROFIT. The less you make the more your company profits. If you want a bigger piece of the slice of pie your boss is alotting you, you need to stand with your fellow workers and unite as a group to form a formidable force against the self-appointed ruler of your dynasty. One on one doesn't cut it because any one person can be replaced.
> 
> It's nice that your shop pays 70% of your medical... but in order to assess that for it's value and worth, you need to know how much coverage you get and what other details are involved to paint a complete picture. WalMart pays part of their employees medical as well, unfortunately the plan requires the employee to pay $175.00 deductables and outrageous co-payments for each and every medical visit, that renders the plan unusable to most employees who are earning less than $9.00 an hour.
> 
> As for accidental death and dismemberment and disability - read that policy very closely. Most of them are worthless in that the chances of you ever needing their coverage are extremely slim.


 In this area the contractor pays 100% of our medical insurance. This is through the union , most merit shops around here pay a percentage of the cost. We too have disability insurance for what it is worth. One guy I know was getting 230.00 a wk. Thats less than I make in a day :001_huh: however it is better than 'nuttun'! We also have a local death benefit that we pay into ourselfs , it like $5 every time someone dies.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

That 100% of medical means alot too. My last shop on the other side paid 70% of medical too, that left $110 a week up to you to pay if you had a family and two kids, thats $110 out of your check.

About this profit and piece of the pie thing, there is enough pie out there for all of us. It isn't just small minded business men who nickel and dime their workers. The largest employer in America, Walmart, turned nickel and diming their workers more than the next guy into a trillion dollar business. In my opinion, if you shop there you are a holding your fellow countryman down with a boot on his neck.


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## quest01 (Jul 16, 2008)

The Central New York JATC apprentice program which Im thinking about filling an application out after college says this in terms of pay.

*What sort of income should I expect from the apprenticeship?*
Hourly rates are based on percentages of the current Journeyman Wireman rate. Effective June 1, 2008 the hourly rate at the Journeyman level is $29.00. Apprentice rates are as follows (hourly): 

1st Period 
first 1,000 OJT Hours​ $11.60​ 


2nd Period
1,000 - 1,800 OJT Hrs​ $13.05​ 


3rd Period
(2nd Year)​ $14.50​ 


4th Period
(3rd Year)​ $17.40​ 


5th Period
(4th Year)​ $20.30​ 


6th Period
(5th Year)​ $23.20​ Please note that this reflects only hourly compensation, and DOES NOT include benefit package that is paid for by the EMPLOYER. 



http://www.cnyjatc.org/?FAQs


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Local 3 NYC pays a whole lot more than $29.00 an hour for an journeyman, that rate is out of whack.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

actually that wage does not seem to be out of the normal range for much of New York.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

In my local, 106, western NY state (as far away from NYC as you can get and still be in NY), the *JW rate is currently $28.00*

My *first term apprentice wage is $9.80* (35% JW rate and no benefits until 3rd term). Right now, it's *killin' me*. Wife (pregnant), 2 year old kid, house, mortgage, usual bills. I left a non-union tool & die shop at $17.50/hr as their electrician of one year. I was definitely thinking long-term by moving to union.

The IBEW (my local anyway) didn't give me *any credit* - or even recognize- my Associate Degree in the electrical trade as a 'Construction & Maintenance Electrician'. (I have been told that neighboring locals DO recognize degrees in the way I am referring to). Also, my 10+ years industrial maintenance experience (heavy in motor controls, troubleshooting, running services to machinery) didn't count either. 

Not entirely true... degree gave me 15 points on ranking list and experience gave me 5 points, which made me #2 on the list.

I am not whining, I made the decision, I will have to plow through. 

My point is if the IBEW would like to recruit young adults fresh out of trade school/college, AND electrical professionals who have experience, but have been working non-union or 'non-100%' specializing in electrical work, the union (or my local if they are an exception or just behind) better wake up. (In college you are told by instructors and placement officials that you can expect to start out for X $, and make X $ when experienced. Definitely higher than $9.80/hr!!! Isn't federal minimum wage $7.75??) If I was allowed to take the test to possibly start out at 2nd year, I may be at 55% JW rate and sworn in, and getting some employer-paid benefits. I was told that only 'Construction electrical experience' would be recognized.

How many 37 year age people could leave a job for nearly 2x what I started for ? 

I don't know, maybe my 'type and skills' are *not what the IBEW seeks to acquire*. Not bragging, but I would bet that I can install, troubleshoot, service, and maintain most industrial equipment as good, or nearly as good as any of the JW that I have been with so far, and follow NEC requirements on installations, and work on my own, run conduit, feeders, branch circuits, truobleshoot and service same, etc. (I know, only in my 7th week so far. And I realize that Industrial maintenance electrician is not equivalent to dedicated construction electrical work ---I have not done everything and I have a lot to learn (looking forward to it, and *GLAD TO BE HERE!!*).

Maybe just a rant... don't intend to sound whiney. *I do appreciate the support and encouragement that I have received here so far.* 

Have I raised any valid points or am I just envious/disgruntled?

BP


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

it sounds as if your negotiating skills are the only thing lacking. Unless this particular local has dead set rules against starting a cub above 1st year, negotiation may have gotten you there, maybe not though.

at least it sounds like there is a lot of work in your local. A walk through on book 1 and nearly that on book 2.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

nap said:


> actually that wage does not seem to be out of the normal range for much of New York.


Our local is more along the lines of $46.00.


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## quest01 (Jul 16, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> Our local is more along the lines of $46.00.


I think the main reason why the pay is higher in NYC is because the cost of living is so much higher compared to upstate NY.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Our local is more along the lines of $46.00.


Your local, from what I found, does not post online info although I may have just not been able to find it.

In that list, on the first page, there were 6 out of 10 locals that paid $28/hr or less. One paid like $30 or so and them the remaining 3 were in the upper $30's.

as quwest stated, I would think your cost of living would mandate a higher wage than locals outside the city.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

quest01 said:


> I think the main reason why the pay is higher in NYC is because the cost of living is so much higher compared to upstate NY.


Many of us live south in NJ or even out in PA (where the COL is very good). I have moved all over NY before moving to NJ a while ago. At one point I commuted from Albany, but gas wasn't $4.00 a gallon then.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

nap said:


> Your local, from what I found, does not post online info although I may have just not been able to find it.
> 
> In that list, on the first page, there were 6 out of 10 locals that paid $28/hr or less. One paid like $30 or so and them the remaining 3 were in the upper $30's.
> 
> as quwest stated, I would think your cost of living would mandate a higher wage than locals outside the city.


 
They don't post that type of thing in public areas any longer. I as many guys view scale as the minimum pay, most guys are looking to make more and a few added benefits by being more valuable by being better at one or two specialities, such as control work or something of that nature.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

nap said:


> actually that wage does not seem to be out of the normal range for much of New York.


Much of New York is nowhere near New York City, Westchester, or Long Island, where the cost of living is at the very least double than Saracuse, Buffalo, Albany, etc...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

BP_redbear said:


> In my local, 106, western NY state (as far away from NYC as you can get and still be in NY), the *JW rate is currently $28.00*
> 
> My *first term apprentice wage is $9.80* (35% JW rate and no benefits until 3rd term). Right now, it's *killin' me*. Wife (pregnant), 2 year old kid, house, mortgage, usual bills. I left a non-union tool & die shop at $17.50/hr as their electrician of one year. I was definitely thinking long-term by moving to union.
> 
> ...


It (The IBEW) is not a one size fits all, perfect system. Other jurisdiction's methods are determined by their needs and goals, and cannot be cherrypicked as being right or better because it suits your particular circumstances more to a Tee.

My local (3) actively organized many shops and many a nonunion electrician suddenly began making A-Journeyman inside wireman's rate right off the bat. Apparently, up in your local that top-pay "lure" wasn't necessary to organize or to attract enough qualified applicants to the apprenticeship pool. 



> I don't know, maybe my 'type and skills' are *not what the IBEW seeks to acquire*. Not bragging, but I would bet that I can install, troubleshoot, service, and maintain most industrial equipment as good, or nearly as good as any of the JW that I have been with so far, and follow NEC requirements on installations, and work on my own, run conduit, feeders, branch circuits, truobleshoot and service same, etc. (I know, only in my 7th week so far. And I realize that Industrial maintenance electrician is not equivalent to dedicated construction electrical work ---I have not done everything and I have a lot to learn (looking forward to it, and *GLAD TO BE HERE!!*).
> 
> Maybe just a rant... don't intend to sound whiney. *I do appreciate the support and encouragement that I have received here so far.*
> 
> ...


It's all good...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

When I started open shop I made 2.50 an hour most open shops started you at 1.75. This firm needed low end guys to hump material and hired at a hire wage.

At that time 1970 Mechanics open shop $5.00-$6.00 Union was $6.35.

I was working 80 plus hours a week for 3 months, I was rich. I calculated what a union man would make doing the same hours and I could not figure out how I could spend all that cash.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Yea, and the subway was a nickel...


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

Whenever someone asks me what the difference between Union and non union is, I always say......."About 10 to 15 dollars an hour".


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> Whenever someone asks me what the difference between Union and non union is, I always say......."About 10 to 15 dollars an hour".


From what I see in my area non union is @50% of scale and that is being generous to the non union shops.


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