# How many things do you see...



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I stopped at 4 issues just in this corner of the panel, more than enough to call for a thorough inspection by a licensed Electrician.

This is a residential 200A Panel... Oh yes, framed in as well....

PS... the double taps are from a surge protector

There were lots more issues, I will post a few of them seperately


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

How many people perished?


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

None, ...yet...


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

1st thing i see wrong southwire screw driver! Get yourself a decent one Bob. Throw that thing away. Lol


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Yeah south wire tools are crap dude!


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Got a name of a GOOD 8-way insulated driver? I tried that one because it had two different sized Flats, #2 Philips, two different Roberson (square) drivers, and two nut drivers....

The Flat split, the Philips and Robertson's rounded (soft metal) and the inserts are flakey and don't want to come out sometimes... (and yes I should have been wearing my gloves)


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I dont really see a problem with that, to be honest. The nuetral is like that because they couldnt get to the screw. Definitely not anything to sweat imho.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok, what I saw (just in this corner) was:

Rust Stains on most of the breakers
Stray Neutral wire to nothing
SPLIT Double tap for a surge device
#1 leg goes to the Single 15A breaker 
#2 leg goes to one side of the 50A double breaker
Also, something was "Crooked" and may not have been properly seated, that may not be a real issue, but it makes me wonder (I don't touch or wiggle them)

I called for a licensed Electrician....


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Rust is from the cover. See a lot of that in damp basements. I'd be more concerned with the main breaker's internals. It might not have been cycled in many years. I like my surge devices on their own breakers also.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> Got a name of a GOOD 8-way insulated driver? I tried that one because it had two different sized Flats, #2 Philips, two different Roberson (square) drivers, and two nut drivers....
> 
> The Flat split, the Philips and Robertson's rounded (soft metal) and the inserts are flakey and don't want to come out sometimes... (and yes I should have been wearing my gloves)


Hey Bob,
I wouldn't recommend a multi. I was changing out a breaker and the robinson tip fell out of my screwdriver. It landed on the bus feeding the main breaker. This bus comes up from the bottom and thankfully is insulated because the tip was laying on the side of it. You may not change out breakers but the tip could still come out.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Evidence of water infiltration, but nothing else that gives me any concern.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> I dont really see a problem with that, to be honest. The nuetral is like that because they couldnt get to the screw. Definitely not anything to sweat imho.


I like you GC but you are full of **** when it comes to comments on Bob. He posted some good pics with decent comments and you throw up on it just because he is not a "real electrician". 
Shunk should know better also. Or maybe you guys can't spot the violations. If that is the case just ask us.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Evidence of water infiltration, but nothing else that gives me any concern.


Really? the wiring of that surge arrestor is OK?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I like the Lenox 9 in 1, but I can't seem to find it anywhere anymore... But try the Klein heavy duty one...

I bought one of those southwire 10 in 1 when they first came out because I was doing a hit and run job and lost the shank on my klein. Anyway I take it to the parking lot and open it up and each bit and sleeve was so loose that they just fell out from a little shake. Took it back and opened the second in the store, one sleeve was so tight it wouldn't come out!, opened a third that seemed ok, and broke both flats the same day! And I'm not one of those guys who puts the gorilla grip on a 10-32...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Multi screwdrivers are for union guys and home inspectors. Go get yourself a real set of screwdrivers.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I can't BELIEVE you didn't have your gloves on while poking around in that widow maker. Jesus bob, you live too fast and too loose. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't see the rust marks or the cut off neutral as a real issue. There is the issue of the double taps that are a violation (but probably not a serious hazard), and there is the issue of the 110.26 violation with the recessed panel.

All in all it looks a lot better than many residential panels that I have seen.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Iirc, some of the old MOV's had instructions to double tap the main, leaving leads as short as possible....guess it fell outta vouge....~CS~


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Strictly for style points, I hate to see red on the first leg. That is, I much prefer to see black/red/black/red going down the breakers -- unless the Romex is 14-2/ or 12-2. Commercial habits die hard.

The few surge protectors I've installed had their own C/Bs -- sized heavy. 

A 15A C/B would worry me -- and without a doubt I'd land the taps across the 2-pole C/B... if pressed.

Most residential C/Bs aren't even listed for two taps. Our AHJs would ding us on such matters.

I can't tell if the conductors on the two-pole 50 are appropriate. They look like #6 -- to me... but then what am I to make of the RED conductor double tapping the second pole? 

For a Romex job -- it's STRANDED, and it's seriously undersized -- unless it's a protected tap (tap rules) or feeding an appropriate motor load. (A 50A can protect a #12 feeding a motor -- this NEC provision is not usually accepted in a residential setting, BTW. ) It's neutral is not in the frame.

I see a stranded, fully naked, grounding conductor on the rail, uncommon in a Romex panel.

Like the surge arrester we've got a tap straddling a two-pole breaker. It's looks sketchy -- but without further inspection -- who knows?

When I see this type of work, I'm thinking: "Over stuffed panel." Sketchy work to be expected across the board. Mr. handyman may have been here."


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

There are SOME panel mains that have a special spot for 12ga surge taps, and there are some surges that have flat "paddles" that go under the main lug.... This site had neither...

Didn't anyone have a comment that the Surge was split across two DIFFERENT breakers, one leg was on a single 15A, the other was on half of a 50A... so if the Surge blew, it could not trip both legs, and I doubt it could blow the 50A unless it was melting onto the floor... The 15A was too cold, and the half of the 50A was too hot... a dual 20A would have been just right, and correct. If I am way off base TELL ME, if I am just being picky, that's my job....

When I call for you guys I need it evaluated "by the book" not "its probably OK" My clients ask me to be paranoid, and want to make sure it is truly OK as this is probably the last time it will -ever- get looked at until -THEY- sell in 10-15 years...(or next year if they get transferred)

I agree with some as this panel isn't "bad", but it is WRONG and my clients want to have the seller make it 100% right, not almost right, not OK, not "Minor Risk." It is Electrical, and Electrical is one of the few things (in my region) that the buyer can insist on being "100% Right & Correct."

When you guys get on my case about something I missed, or that I should be taking more safety precautions with, or use better tools, I listen and (try to) learn. But when a "licensed" electrician "says" but won't put his comments in writing, that I am being paranoid and "NOTHING" is wrong in a panel like this, I get pissed. This Panel is WRONG. It doesn't matter "how" wrong, it has something that is enough for me to call for a supposed "expert" to review, report and Fix. Maybe it is going to be sold in 1-year, and the next inspector just might be a picky licensed master electrician (there are two in my chapter) who is going to open the panel and flag some of the same stuff I did, and my client is going to pull out YOUR RECEIPT (if you give them one) that said there was "nothing" wrong...you may get an upset phone call...

I try very hard to give you guys room to find MORE. I get maybe 3 hours to do a typical house, roof to foundation, appliances, bathrooms, garage, plumbing, fireplaces, floors walls, doors, windows and ceilings.
Oh yea, and electrical. So when I see enough wrong stuff to know that there is probably MORE, that I don't/can't see, don't know about, was behind a sofa, or wasn't one of the 25+ random "representative" outlets I did test, I call for you guys to spend the sellers money finding stuff and making it absolutely the best it can be on that day.

This is your chance to -get paid- to make it the way you would do it if it were your child's house. (We all know about our own homes...) If you don't want business, don't answer the phone. Otherwise, constructive comments welcome.... 


Sorry, got carried away... almost hit delete...but I think there are some good points somewhere in there


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I like you GC but you are full of **** when it comes to comments on Bob. He posted some good pics with decent comments and you throw up on it just because he is not a "real electrician".
> Shunk should know better also. Or maybe you guys can't spot the violations. If that is the case just ask us.


some iiss in your cheerios this morning:whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...
> 
> Didn't anyone have a comment that the Surge was split across two DIFFERENT breakers, one leg was on a single 15A, the other was on half of a 50A... so if the Surge blew, it could not trip both legs, and I doubt it could blow the 50A unless it was melting onto the floor.. ....


While the 50a may be too big, having two single pole breakers for a line to line load is compliant with the NEC. The current NEC would require handle ties for the two single pole breaker feeding a line to line load, but handle ties do not result in a common trip, so one of the two could trip with the other one staying on.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

if handleties dont trip both breakers what do they do?


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

It's not listed as common trip


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

agreed, but same question


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I like you GC but you are full of **** when it comes to comments on Bob. He posted some good pics with decent comments and you throw up on it just because he is not a "real electrician".
> Shunk should know better also. Or maybe you guys can't spot the violations. If that is the case just ask us.


Looked at the pics on my phone.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

papaotis said:


> if handleties dont trip both breakers what do they do?


Internal common trip. Its one of the biggest misconception in the industry that handle ties trip both poles during a fault. 

FWIW a line to line load or MWBC can have single pole breakers with handle ties on a 120/240 system.

Anything with 120 and 240 like a range or dryer needs a 2 pole common trip breaker.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

papaotis said:


> if handleties dont trip both breakers what do they do?


They are for a common means of disconnect. They are not intended to be a common trip device for fault conditions. 

Breakers are required to be "trip free". That means that the breaker will still clear the circuit even where the handle is locked in the on position. Sometimes a trip of one breaker connected to a second breaker will open both, but not always. If you have a three pole handle tie, a single trip will almost never cause the other two breaker to open.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I avoid handle ties and go for common trip whenever possible. Is there ever a good reason to use handle ties over common trip?


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

Just to add, Zac makes a good point Bob. I've had old heads give no end of crap if they saw a multi purpose used in panel, and for the reason Zac mentioned. You really don't want potential loose pieces and parts that can fall into live panels.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> I avoid handle ties and go for common trip whenever possible. Is there ever a good reason to use handle ties over common trip?


So you can avoid the common disconnect by removing the handle tie when you want to work on a multi-wire branch circuit:no:


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> So you can avoid the common disconnect by removing the handle tie when you want to work on a multi-wire branch circuit:no:


I would never do something like that! I turn of the main to change a light bulb...safety first...it only takes once ya know!


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## Jay82304 (May 12, 2015)

Bob the 11-1 Klein multi screwdriver is a great one!! It has 3 nut drivers, 2 flats, 2 Phillips, 2 star and 2 robertsons. All multi tools can eventually lose its bits especially with a tight fit like a Robertson so I agree not to use a multi tool in a live panel.


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## SparkOhio (Jun 28, 2015)

JW Splicer said:


> Yeah south wire tools are crap dude!


Because they are Chinese? I have a few pliers and wire strippers and some screwdrivers that go through hell daily and have lasted about a year so far.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I never use anything -IN- a panel, all I do is remove the dead front, look, maybe take some pictures, and put it back on. However, I hear that I would be better served with a couple of good non-removable blade screwdrivers.

It is a rarity to have all the proper screws in a Dead Front, normally it's a mix of Flat, Roberston/flat, philips, and HexHeads...That why I really like my 6-in-1 so I can switch between Roberston and Flat or whatever else I need.


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Bob Sisson said:


> Ok, what I saw (just in this corner) was:
> 
> Rust Stains on most of the breakers
> Stray Neutral wire to nothing
> ...


 Yep all good valid points that require further investigation, :thumbsup:
Hence calling in the Sparky. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Hard to tell from the picture, but it "looks" like the insulation on the surge wire for the top breaker may be under the clamp.

The screw head for the large bare bonding wire looks stripped, I'd question how well it was seated. 

Check the make and model of the Surge protector, see what the manufacturer recommends, should be a quick google. 

Looks like the RH 50A breaker was added long after the others. Is it Pool/Hot-tub? Where is the GFCI for those? 

Neat trick that comes in handy for electrical and maybe home inspectors is that a lot of wire will have manufacturing date or date codes on it. 
(I've seen a few pale faces when I ask why the "old work", has wire less than a year old in it,  :laughing:  )


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

SparkOhio said:


> Because they are Chinese? I have a few pliers and wire strippers and some screwdrivers that go through hell daily and have lasted about a year so far.


That's one reason to hate them... I like my USA tools if I can get them!


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Bob, I think you're doing well enough now,
To turn in that Southwire screwdriver in to the recycle bin (or a detractor),
And carry either a Klein or a Picquic, multi-screwdriver!

I wish more home inspectors took the time to research and find issues. 

It really helps to highlight the "hacks" out there and remind homeowners not to take shortcuts when it comes to electricity.


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## SparkOhio (Jun 28, 2015)

JW Splicer said:


> That's one reason to hate them... I like my USA tools if I can get them!


I understand that. Most of my tools are snap on or other high end USA brands( mac,proto)


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I hate home inspectors. I was required to remove the "bare wires" from the old meter on the house or the buyer's insurance wouldn't cover it. Idiots. Was an easy task at least.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

At the risk of getting flamed more than usual, "Bare Wires" and "Old Meter" are you talking about an abandoned meter from a heavy up, a conversion or something else? So long as there is no way, anyway, even by mistake, they could become energized they are just junk that should be cleaned up eventually... 

Insurance carriers are weird, they let some stuff like FPE go through, but want something like your abandoned disconnected dead and cold meter base to be removed...

But you got paid to clean it up.... So why is that the inspectors fault? He probably commented that there was an abandoned meter connection, if he didn't say something he would have gotten grief from someone else...


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

TGGT said:


> I hate home inspectors. I was required to remove the "bare wires" from the old meter on the house or the buyer's insurance wouldn't cover it. Idiots. Was an easy task at least.


 It's not upto the home inspectors to determine what is safe or has a reasonable expectation of what is safe. They don't go through the training and get all the experiences we do.
Besides for liability, they cannot make that call! They get paid to identify any potential issues or things that may not be right. 

You got a service call for something that my not have been important,
that time. But still should've been done at some point in time.
But it sounds like it was easy,
I'm sure you got paid,
Soooooo it sounds like you hate an entity... that generated some work for you? 

Me, I'll take easy work/money any day. :thumbup: 

"Yes Mam, you want all your receptacles swapped so they are ground up, so it's safer for your cats? 
Well maybe we can switch them to TR and add GFCI also, in-case the little darlings decide to play with any forks or some of those crazy metalic cat toys.
You saw one playing with a fork the other day on the counter?
Yes Mam I'll have a crew right over, Yes I'll tell them to hurry and ask them to stay overtime if needed."
:jester: :whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...
> Insurance carriers are weird, they let some stuff like FPE go through, but want something like your abandoned disconnected dead and cold meter base to be removed...


Maybe because they understand that the risk from FPE breakers is not near as great as the much of the stuff says on the net. It was only some of their 2 pole breakers that failed the calibration tests.
The CSPC said this about FPE in 1993.


> The Consumer Product Safety Commission announced today that it is closing its two year investigation into Federal Pacific Electric Stab-lok type residential circuit breakers. This action was taken because the data currently available to the Commission does not establish that the circuit breakers pose a serious risk of injury to consumers.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i removed an fpe today that was shootin sparks as soon as i touched it! but yes i agree they arent all bad


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

oh, and thanks for tghe comments on handle ties. my expierince has been that they do trip both breakers, but havent encountered that situation with 3 phase.


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

AK_sparky said:


> I would never do something like that! I turn of the main to change a light bulb...safety first...it only takes once ya know!


 Sadly, that would have saved one maintenance guy's life. http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Research/Face/Files/LightBulbElectrocution.pdf


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

I have said this numerous times before regarding FPE, I worked with a contractor that was involved in the recall, all the circuit breakers on the recall were bolt-in circuit breakers and had to do with AIC ratings. No Stab-Locs were on the recall.

Now there may have been another recall for the Stab-Locs but I never saw documentation for this.


Not saying FPE is a good product and in my opinion I really think most panels pushing 35 years in service should be in question, particularly those in humid basements and the CB's are never exercised. 

I would consider CB replacement more than the back box, depending on a visual inspection.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Emphasis on '_visual inspection'_ BadOne.

That's what the _inspection_ world does

It's up to us to deenergize ,dismantle, investigate, meter what's out there.

The onus of _responsibility_ being clearly placed on the EC , just how detailed would we get with the OP's panel?

~CS~


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Think of Home Inspectors as "Triage." We get to see the patient first, and do a quick -Visual- assessment of who they need to see. Do they need a plumber, roofer, appliance guy, roofer, foundation guy, window guy, or electrician? Ok, they need an electrician, what are the symptoms (visual clues) that lead you to make that call? We are NOT doctors (electricians, plumbers, etc...) but coreman/interns etc who have been trained by people like YOU to look for certain things. 

There ARE people who call in a plumber, electrician, roofer, flooring guy, roofer, HVAC technician, landscaper etc... and have each one of them write a report of what they think needs to be done. As you can imagine, that takes a lot to setup, some of those people get big $$ for their reports, and it is NOT going to happen on a single day. Home Inspectors are a compromise for sure, but some of us really do try to become educated, go to training (Like on 2014 NEC changes, 2015 70E changes, etc...) 
Where YOU can help (and get more business) is to teach/educate/mentor/or just prod home inspectors with "symptoms" that can be SEEN and that mean a lot. Burn marks are easy. Wire nuts are easy. Rev Pol, Open Neu, ungrounded, etc are easy with a 3-lite tester. Patterns of things such as all of a room is rev-polarity. The entire recently renovated house is all 3-wire outlets but the Panel is all 2-wire old cloth NM (hum... bootleg grounds anyone?) 

I go to a LOT of classes each year, some on Electrical stuff, some of it Basic, some of it advanced, but where I learn the MOST is from guys like you who speak up and say "You should have said this about that rather than..." 
Who benefits, BOTH OF US. You get more business, even if it is putting in GFCI's,declaring the Rust in a panel as safe, or even a heavy up, and we write better comments that mean more to you when you do get the call.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Bob- 

Ideally (IN MY WORLD) a house would be fully tested* prior to a sale. BUT this is very expensive and requires a large investment in specialized equipment and training of employees. Being cynical and knowing what has happened to the electrical Infrared market I know this work would be beaten to the bottom dollar and there would be unqualified people performing the work, with improper equipment.

*-All branch circuits insulation resistance tested and all circuit breakers tested. Average home this is a two men a full day about $2,000.00. And even this would not provide insurance there is not some hidden electrical defect in a wall or box.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hey Bob, the Lennox 9-1 screwdriver is great. Cheaper than the Klein, but the guts don't fall out as easily. Personally I would get an electric screwdriver (like the milwaukee m12 non-impact driver) and keep a 5/16 nut driver and #2 robbie and #2 phillips bit handy, with a straight blade in my back pocket. Saves on the ol' wrists.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> *-All branch circuits insulation resistance tested and all circuit breakers tested. Average home this is a two men a full day about $2,000.00. And even this would not provide insurance there is not some hidden electrical defect in a wall or box.


The UK sparkys would _love_ you .....~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Oh, and i like '_triage_' Bob, i might have to steal that in lieu of _'point man_' :thumbup:

~CS~


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I also have been aggravated by HI reports and finally realized it's easy money fixes. Correct double-tapped breakers? Bring 'em on, all day every day. Install GFCI's in places where they were not required when house was built? Yes ma'm, $35-$50 each (what kind of boxes, how many, and how sure I feel about getting the job explains price range). Verify service grounded=$50 ground rod.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've worked with many HI's over the years. 

The term is, however, all inclusive of engineering level qualifications down to retired GC. 

I really with NACHI would institute a national benchmark, especially being an EC where none exists.

~CS~


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I have two problems with home inspectors, so you're the easy target.
1. Splices in the main distribution panel is not a code violation. The next paragraph says something like... Unless there is adequate space for the splice...and there is always adequate space.
2. Learn local requirements. In this area where the requirement is almost always conduit there will be Romex run to the main panel. It's a huge flag of non-professional work and is almost never listed on a home inspection report.

And it may seem like your report leads to big bucks for lucky electrical contractors, but many homeowners and realtors really just want to waste our time getting a free written report to negotiate the sale.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

My suggestion is to find the local Chapter of the Home Inspectors and offer to do a talk about "current codes" and "things to look for" as many of the local chapters are always looking for speakers. You may get a meal out of it, and make a lot more contacts. More importantly you can tell them to stop writing some things, and tell them what they are often missing. Everyone wins. If your state requires YOU to get CE's every year, most give EXTRA CE's when you teach.

In MY area, I write the report, the realtor negotiate what will get fixed between the seller and buyer, and then the seller hires -YOU- to do the work... You never have to write anything, you just get a "punch list" that needs to be fixed (or OK'd in writing).

Somethings just need to be OK'd like (minor) overspray or Rust in a Panel. I can't see behind the breakers, so I don't know if the breakers or Buss are involved or not, that's your call. You get to pull the breakers and decide if the Buss is ok, or if the breakers have corrosion on them worth replacing. 

I tell my clients, I am not the expert, I do Triage only. The Electrician will decide what needs to be fixed/replaced and if anything is OK as is he will give you a invoice/letter saying its OK (Overly paranoid or not up on his education HI)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I tell my clients, I am not the expert, I do Triage only. The Electrician will decide what needs to be fixed/replaced and if anything is OK as is he will give you a invoice/letter saying its OK (Overly paranoid or not up on his education HI)


And we should be playing off of this cue too Bob!

Education is a key factor Bob, it can not be downplayed or discounted. 

But many here are EC's , with _liability_ always in mind.

And so, through many experiences , some of which ended in litigation, i have learned your above approach the hard way.

If i am handed a HI's , I am usually expected to address the electrical woes on it. 

Those boo-boos are often a tool less (panel cover off at best) visual inspection.

The bottom line to all this is, and you'll excuse me for having to think this way, is _who gets the subpoena _ when the home owner realizes repairs are going to be $0000, instead of $0 _(they confront certifications first btw)_

Case in point, one HI report totally missed the K&T , the home owners insurance agency insisting on cancelation of policy in leui of $0000 repairs 

In his defense, none of it was visual _(BX in basement)_

We've adopted our own '_tooled'_ electrical inspection check list, often visiting areas the HI may have missed, and/or citing items the HI did not for this reason. Our panel report>>









You can imagine the feedback we get.....

This is only in an EC's back pocket when we are on the same page, it can really be a chore when we are not

~CS~


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I do whole-house evaluations for a fee greater than home inspectors. I tell prospective customers that I usually spend as much time on the electrical system as a HI spends on all the systems. 

Sellers don't want a documented full report on their problems, which they would need to disclose, and buyers don't want to pay the fee before the purchase.

But a free written quote for closing negotiations...I did them for 20 years.


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

Wow, this is a topic I could really get into. I am having major issues with HIs these days but I just got licensed as a real estate broker on top of my EC. Are HIs in MD licensed by the state? They aren't here in NM and they are all over the board in terms of knowledge and ability. I'm just happy to see one actively pursuing further information from experienced spe******ts. 
Without even getting into the details, your photo is a big red flag that at very least, there is likely to be poor quality work throughout that home. Recommending an EC eval was definitely the right thing to do.
By the way, I love that "Light Bulb Replacement Fatality" link. People always give me this sour look when I don't automatically agree that "anybody can change a light bulb". That's like saying "anybody can drive a car".


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Here in MD we are licensed, and we need Lots of hours to get that license, and have to pass a NATIONAL proctored exam. We also have to get 15 CE's a year to keep it.

That doesn't mean we are all the same... There are good, bad and ugly like any trade. 

And Chicken S... I like that list. My current page covers all of that, but not as concisely, mind if I borrow a good portion of it? 

Most panel I see would start off with a lot of strikes immediately with Accessibility, Workspace, illumination, Cover screws, Rust, Brand match, and then we would start with double taps, labeling, damaged dead front, scorched wires, Gnd/Neu under same screw, etc....

PS...didn't see Gnd/Neu under same screw on your list.. Where do you put Paint/Overspray? 

Another one, AFCI's... there is a BIG storm coming on those as now that we have OUTLET AFCI's they are supposed to go in as replacements when you replace outlets (just like GFCI"S have been forever) in listed locations.... I will really be surprised when I see my first one. Waiting for my First GFCI for the Dishwasher and Food grinder as well, everyone here is working on older code...

I also get in arguments about "readily accessible" GFCI's behind screwed shut panels, on ceilings, behind equipment, etc... I often will leave them tripped in new construction houses to see the builder squeeze between the furnace and water heater to re-set it. It never gets moved, but it is amusing. Light switches behind doors is another favorite.

Ooops, sorry, got distracted...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> > And Chicken S... I like that list. My current page covers all of that, but not as concisely, mind if I borrow a good portion of it?
> 
> 
> It would be most appropriate , seeing as i _'borrowed'_ it from one of our more savvy area HI's.....
> ...


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Bob Sisson;2078361 Light switches behind doors is another favorite.
[/QUOTE said:


> I am probably like most electricians in that I have never ever put a lite switch behind a door.
> 
> But I have had plenty of doors hung in front of my lite switch.
> 
> ...


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

In the op picture, I see two different name brand breakers, the panel may or not be rated for multiple brands.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I have said this numerous times before regarding FPE, I worked with a contractor that was involved in the recall, all the circuit breakers on the recall were bolt-in circuit breakers and had to do with AIC ratings. No Stab-Locs were on the recall.
> 
> Now there may have been another recall for the Stab-Locs but I never saw documentation for this.
> 
> ...


Having witnessed more than one instance of an FPE stab-loc breaker of both the single and two pole variety not only refuse to trip when a dead short was present, but lock up and be impossible to manually shut off, I couldn't in good conscience tell anyone an FPE panel and / or breaker is "OK".

I've seen all the described problems presented in the "favorite" FPE critical web site and quite frankly think the CPSC was manipulated by other government entities to let the issue drop. The fact New Jersey did in fact have a lawsuit that found fault is a bit telling.

Personally, I refuse to deal with many FPE panels without a work order in hand as many times two skinny breakers were forced into a slot only meant for one (the "E" and "F/ rectangle" slot issue) and consequently only the cover holds the breakers in position. These, of course, tend to fall out when the cover is removed and can't be legally reinstalled as they are not installed per the manufacturers instructions. And, these panels are usually full so any reconfiguring is out of the question. 

I would caution any home inspector against removing a cover unless they understand the possible consequences.

I've had many offers from realtors to write a letter telling a buyer that an an FPE panel is safe and have turned down the easy money every single time.

And Bob, wonderful thing you do. Love seeing someone asking questions instead of assuming they know more than a tradesman with 30 or 40 years experience. There are a bunch of jerks in your field, as in mine, but you guys find a lot of very questionable stuff that would never be seen till someone got hurt otherwise.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

There are THREE panels that I won't open because they are just too old, hazzardous, obsolete or just plain cantankerous. There are people who will argue that they got bad raps, are fine, have secondary dead fronts, and more... They are just not worth the Risk to open or to have in -my- home, so that's what I tell my clients.

-Federal Pacific Stab-Locks
-Zinsco
-Bulldog Pushmatics.

I tell my clients to Google the panels and make up their own mind, but our recommendation is replacement and repairs of any other issues found while performing the replacement. When I find one of these, there are typically lots of other electrical issues such as NO GFCI's, handyman wiring, overfused AC compressors, frayed SE drops, <100A service, and more that will keep a sparky busy for a day...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> There are THREE panels that I won't open because they are just too old, hazzardous, obsolete or just plain cantankerous. There are people who will argue that they got bad raps, are fine, have secondary dead fronts, and more... They are just not worth the Risk to open or to have in -my- home, so that's what I tell my clients.
> 
> -Federal Pacific Stab-Locks
> -Zinsco
> ...


Yet Stab-Locks are still made and used in Canada and the advertizing touts the Stab-Lock as a superior bus connection over other push on/in bus connections.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I have had too many inspectors in my own chapter tell stories of opening a Stab-lock and having the breakers fall out....

Not worth the Risk.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

...I take a couple weeks off from posting and you guys let Sisson run the show again over here?

Jesus.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

itsunclebill said:


> Having witnessed more than one instance of an FPE stab-loc breaker of both the single and two pole variety not only refuse to trip when a dead short was present, but lock up and be impossible to manually shut off, I couldn't in good conscience tell anyone an FPE panel and / or breaker is "
> :


I have tested literally 1000's of circuit breakers, if want to see the manufactures that never had a failure see the list below in yellow

0


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Usually i don't need much _detail _as you walking up to these 40 yr old rust buckets in our New England basements....

~CS~


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ARRR.. Methinks thar be liars in these here woods.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Usually i don't need much _detail _as you walking up to these 40 yr old rust buckets in our New England basements....
> 
> ~CS~


I am of the belief that most CB's in basements or high humidity areas (as I said prviously) should be replaced 35plus years never operated except an ocassional ovrload.


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