# Light Switch in Bathtub Surround



## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

Is a light switch allowed by NEC in a bathtub surround where no shower head is present?

Thanks,

Aaron


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

404.4 tells you.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

See NEC 404.4


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Damn, missed it by that much!


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

So where if the wet location for a tub? We can install a fixture over a tub so why can't a switch be mounted over the tub as long as there is no shower?


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## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

Sparky:

404.4 says:

404.4 Damp or Wet Locations.
A surface-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2. A flush-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be equipped with a weatherproof cover. Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

and then 100 says:

Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

I guess what my question should be is this: is the surround in a bathtub not equipped with a shower head considered a wet, damp, or dry location?

Thanks for your patience,

Aaron


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

aaronm said:


> Sparky:
> I guess what my question should be is this: is the surround in a bathtub not equipped with a shower head considered a wet, damp, or dry location?
> 
> Thanks for your patience,
> ...


I would say no but I bet it will be a hard sell to the inspector.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> So where if the wet location for a tub? We can install a fixture over a tub so why can't a switch be mounted over the tub as long as there is no shower?


You're far more likely to touch a switch than a light in a tub or shower area.



aaronm said:


> Sparky:
> 
> 404.4 says:
> 
> ...


100 is just definitions. 404 tells you specifically what you need to know. Unless it is a listed assembly, you can't just cut a switch in.


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## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

electricista said:


> I would say no but I bet it will be a hard sell to the inspector.


Is that a no to installing the switches in the surround? My thought on the subject is this: with or without a shower head this switches is subject to being splashed with water. Someone standing ankle deep in water with wet hands operating the switch seems to me to be dangerous.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

aaronm said:


> Is that a no to installing the switches in the surround? My thought on the subject is this: with or without a shower head this switches is subject to being splashed with water. Someone standing ankle deep in water with wet hands operating the switch seems to me to be dangerous.


I would say yes-- If the switch were just outside the tub basin you could still touch it but it is legal so.....


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're far more likely to touch a switch than a light in a tub or shower area.
> 
> Where does it say that the area above a tub is wet location.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Why are we having this debate?

Where did you install/intend to install the switch at aaron?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> Where does it say that the area above a tub is wet location.


Definition of a wet location, Art. 100.


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## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Why are we having this debate?
> 
> Where did you install/intend to install the switch at aaron?


Here's a picture of the install - not mine.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

*FAIL.*


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## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> *FAIL.*


Celtic:

Thanks,

Aaron


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

aaronm said:


> Celtic:
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron


That is just MY opinion...someone might disagree:whistling2:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Definition of a wet location, Art. 100.


I think I will have to disagree. There can be no saturation with water above a tub with no shower. Well no more so then taking a bucket and throwing water all over the place.


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## aaronm (Jan 24, 2009)

electricista said:


> I think I will have to disagree. There can be no saturation with water above a tub with no shower. Well no more so then taking a bucket and throwing water all over the place.


Hypothetical sceanrio: you're taking a bath. The phone rings. You've got soap in your eyes and a wash cloth in your hand. You stand up to find a towel so you can get out of the tub and get to the phone and hold the wash cloth against the switches. Saturation occurs, no?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> ..... Well no more so then taking a bucket and throwing water all over the place.


 
Well, there you go. 

_Splish splash, I was taking a bath_
_Long about a Saturday night_
_A rub dub, just relaxing in the tub_
_Thinking everything was alright_
_Well, I stepped out the tub, put my feet on the floor_
_I wrapped the towel around me _
_And I opened the door, and then_
_Splish, splash! I jumped back in the bath_
_Well how was I to know there was a party going on?_
_They was a-splishing and a-splashing, reelin' with the feelin'_
_Moving and a-grooving, rocking and a-rolling, yeah_
_Bing bang, I saw the whole gang_
_Dancing on my living room rug, yeah_
_Flip flop, they was doing the bop_
_All the teens had the dancing bug_
_There was Lollipop with-a Peggy Sue_
_Good golly, Miss Molly was-a even there, too_
_A-well-a, splish splash, I forgot about the bath_
_I went and put my dancing shoes on, yeah_
_I was a rolling and a-strolling, reeling with the feeling_
_Moving and a-groovin', splishing and a-splashing, yeah_
_Yes, I was a-splishing and a-splashing, I was a-rolling and a-strolling_
_Yeah, I was a-moving and a-grooving, we was a-reeling with the feeling_
_We was a-rolling and a-strolling, moving with the grooving_
_Splish splash, yeah_
_Yes, I was a-splishing and a-splashing_
_I was a-splishing and a-splashing_
_I was a-moving and a-grooving..._

_.............................Bobby Darin_


Despite whether you consider it a wet location, damp location, saturated location or what, *404.4 says no unless it is listed*.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

My honest opinion is that I believe the intent is what you all are saying. I just don't see it in the NEC-- I think it needs a rewite to say no switch is allowed within the confines of the tub / shower stall unless it is listed. One could define that area as done in 410 I believe.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> .... I think it needs a rewite to say no switch is allowed within the confines of the tub / shower stall unless it is listed......


Isn't that what 404.4 says?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Isn't that what 404.4 says?


No it says in a wet location. I don't see this area as a wet location



aaronm said:


> Hypothetical sceanrio: you're taking a bath. The phone rings. You've got soap in your eyes and a wash cloth in your hand. You stand up to find a towel so you can get out of the tub and get to the phone and hold the wash cloth against the switches. Saturation occurs, no?


Same scenario with the switch 3" outside the tub-- saturation occurs?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> No it says in a wet location. I don't see this area as a wet location......


Then do what you want and see if it passes inspection.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Since there is no shower head for this tub, I have trouble seeing it a "subject to saturation", therefore, not a wet location.

However, I would consider it "subject to moderate degrees of moisture", hence a damp location. No weatherproof cover per 404.4, so it's a violation.

I simply can't see this as a dry location.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Then do what you want and see if it passes inspection.


I never said I would do it. In fact I said it would be a hard sell to an inspector.

For the record I would not do it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Let's see what 'the experts' say:

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NECQ-HTML/HTML/March-NEC-Questions~20040115.htm

http://www.passandseymour.com/2005neccodebook.pdf

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stumped_code_10/


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Let's see what 'the experts' say:
> 
> http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NECQ-HTML/HTML/March-NEC-Questions~20040115.htm
> 
> ...





EC&M said:


> *Code Quandaries*
> 
> Mar 1, 2004 12:00 PM, All, By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant
> javascript:void(0)
> ...



Again, this is subject to the interpretation of whether or not that is a wet or damp location.


My opinion - no shower head, it is a damp location
It still needs a WP cover.


Would *I *install a switch there? _*NO*_ :no:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Let's see what 'the experts' say:
> 
> http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NECQ-HTML/HTML/March-NEC-Questions~20040115.htm
> 
> ...



Both Mike holt and the ecm link mention shower stall. The op does not have a shower stall.

The art. states you cannot install a switch in the wet location of a bathtub space but it does not define where that space is. I agree it states what you are saying-- and of course the questions and answers are based on a tub/shower install-- that does not define the wet location of the tub. If they wanted to exclude the entire area it should say no switch shall be located within the shower otr tub space-- It does not -- t specifically mentions the wet location areas of those spaces. Seems like they did not want to exclude the space above the tub.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

electricista said:


> The art. states you cannot install a switch in the wet location of a bathtub space but it does not define where that space is.


The point I was trying to make, only stated better. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm guessing some of you folks never saw a kid take a bath ....when mine do, it's like a friggin' Tsunami ...water somehow manages to even start dripping in the basement under that tub.

That's pretty "saturated" and "normal" in my house.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I'm guessing some of you folks never saw a kid take a bath ....when mine do, it's like a friggin' Tsunami ...water somehow manages to even start dripping in the basement under that tub.
> 
> That's pretty "saturated" and "normal" in my house.


So do the switches in the basement fall within the wet location.
Of course, if you take a hose to anything it will be wet location but I still don't see it defined in the NEC


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> Both Mike holt and the ecm link mention shower stall. The op does not have a shower stall......


At Mikes, read Q4.

ECM shows a tub right off the bat.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricista said:


> So do the switches in the basement fall within the wet location.


Yes...I have a big blue trap set up draining into the double slop sink 
The basement is a "hole"....nothing in it but W/D...finishing it off next Winter ~ that bath get the ax in Spring.:thumbsup:



electricista said:


> Of course, if you take a hose to anything it will be wet location but I still don't see it defined in the NEC


Look up "Location, Wet".

By your logic, inside a conduit would never be considered "Location, Wet".


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Y
> Look up "Location, Wet".
> 
> By your logic, inside a conduit would never be considered "Location, Wet".


By my logic??? I am not debating wet location meanings. What I am debating is where the defined area for wet location in that tub area begins and ends. That is not defined-- you are defining the area over a tub as wet location. 5' off the floor I would not consider t a wet location. If you did then a switch just outside the basin area should also be a wet location. Take those hoses away from those kids. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> By my logic??? I am not debating wet location meanings. What I am debating is where the defined area for wet location in that tub area begins and ends. That is not defined-- you are defining the area over a tub as wet location. 5' off the floor I would not consider t a wet location. If you did then a switch just outside the basin area should also be a wet location. Take those hoses away from those kids. :laughing:


 
I would say the wet location of a tub would be the footprint of the tub up to either the ceiling, or 8'. Naturally, that's my interpretation. But I don't have anything other than my experience to back it up with. No UL White book, nothing. But what do you have to back up _not_ calling it a wet location?

Consider this, however. Let's say the tub is 24" tall. You're saying the 'wet location' ends at 24" So if it's legal, in your mind, to install a switch 48" AFF in the tub area, why don't you put them there?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricista said:


> 5' off the floor I would not consider t a wet location. If you did then a switch just outside the basin area should also be a wet location.


The only thing I can say is: Have your AHJ call the shot.

IMHO, 404.4 is pretty clear.






electricista said:


> Take those hoses away from those kids. :laughing:


They'll just find something else :laughing:


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

the super for the GC recently asked me why are'nt electric water coolers/ drinking fountains on a GFCI.why not? ( hope this is not a complete hijack )


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

paul d. said:


> the super for the GC recently asked me why are'nt electric water coolers/ drinking fountains on a GFCI.why not? ( hope this is not a complete hijack )



New thread please!!:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

paul d. said:


> the super for the GC recently asked me why are'nt electric water coolers/ drinking fountains on a GFCI.why not? ( hope this is not a complete hijack )


Typically, the cooler is plugged in behind the unit, and nothing else gets plugged in because the cooler covers the receptaclel up. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program....


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

thanks!!!!


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I would say the wet location of a tub would be the footprint of the tub up to either the ceiling, or 8'. Naturally, that's my interpretation. But I don't have anything other than my experience to back it up with.


Exactly my point. You are using logic and part of the info from art.410.10(D)



> D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.


Granted I have no basis for my answer either other than it does not define that space. 

Here is an example which I know you have seen that is relevant to light fixtures










Why is the switch allowed closer? Who knows...

Imagine having to inspect this. Pretend the fixture is above 8' of the shower threshold.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Since there is no shower head for this tub, I have trouble seeing it a "subject to saturation", therefore, not a wet location.
> 
> However, I would consider it "subject to moderate degrees of moisture", hence a damp location. No weatherproof cover per 404.4, so it's a violation.
> 
> I simply can't see this as a dry location.


Totally agreed! Put A WP cover and a GFCI brkr for it, Call it a day.

Sleep well!


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *paul d.*  
_the super for the GC recently asked me why are'nt electric water coolers/ drinking fountains on a GFCI.why not? ( hope this is not a complete hijack )_

Typically, the cooler is plugged in behind the unit, and nothing else gets plugged in because the cooler covers the receptaclel up. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program....
__________________
Better read 422.52 in the 2008 - 
Electric drinking fountains shall be protected with ground fault circuit-interrupter protection

NOW back to your regularly scheduled program.......


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

I can't recall the article off the top of my head but look up the restrictions on fixtures over a tub. I believe it's 8 ft from the highest point of water (the plumbing fixture) to the nearest point on the fixture.

If you can't hang a chandelier unless it's 8 ft from the tub you think installing a switch in the surround is ok?

(Edit: It'd help if I read the last 2 pages of the thread!)


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricista said:


> Why is the switch allowed closer? Who knows...


A switch is not utilization equipment like a recept. or a luminaire.


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## Megawatts (Jan 12, 2009)

It will fail because of Section 404.4 of the NEC. It is not apart of the surround by the manufacture. Article 100 applies here also. It is classified as a damp and wet location. It's not a dry location. 

Maybe you can get away with it by using a blank GFCI as used for switch. Depends on your Inspector.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Megawatts said:


> ..........Maybe you can get away with it by using a blank GFCI as used for switch. Depends on your Inspector.


GFIs are not designed to be used as a switch.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

480sparky said:


> GFIs are not designed to be used as a switch.


Is there an actual article that forbids this?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> Is there an actual article that forbids this?


There are dead front GFCI's that may be used as switches.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> Is there an actual article that forbids this?


UL White book KCXS.

.....The ‘‘TEST’’ and ‘‘RESET’’ buttons on the GFCIs are only intended to check for the proper functioning of the GFCI. They are not intended to be used as ‘‘ON/OFF’’ controls of motors or other loads unless the buttons are specifically marked ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF.’’ Products with ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF’’ markings have been additionally Listed under Motor Controllers, Mechanically-operated and Solid-state (NMFT)...........​


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Well, a friend and I were discussion the issue of lights in the shower area. So we looked up 410.10(D) and low and behold the last sentence basically defines a wet location in a bathtub and shower area. Again no shower then it is not a wet location. IMO, the switch is legal in the bathtub area as long as there is no shower. Now this article is talking about lights which I believe would be more prone to danger over a tub than a light switch but there it is in RED & White--


> D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations,* or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.*


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

aaronm said:


> Is a light switch allowed by NEC in a bathtub surround where no shower head is present?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron





> Well, a friend and I were discussion the issue of lights in the shower area. So we looked up 410.10(D) and low and behold the last sentence basically defines a wet location in a bathtub and shower area. Again no shower then it is not a wet location. IMO, the switch is legal in the bathtub area as long as there is no shower. Now this article is talking about lights which I believe would be more prone to danger over a tub than a light switch but there it is in RED & White--
> Quote:
> D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations,* or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.*


No shower head, per the OP. This is a damp location, IMO.


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## sparkky052873 (Feb 25, 2009)

your not alowed to install a switch with in 5 ft of a shower or bathtub


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparkky052873 said:


> your not alowed to install a switch with in 5 ft of a shower or bathtub


Says who?

NEC, local amendment, ???


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## Kletis (Jan 18, 2008)

480sparky said:


> UL White book KCXS.
> 
> 
> .....The ‘‘TEST’’ and ‘‘RESET’’ buttons on the GFCIs are only intended to check for the proper functioning of the GFCI. They are not intended to be used as ‘‘ON/OFF’’ controls of motors or other loads unless the buttons are specifically marked ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF.’’ Products with ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF’’ markings have been additionally Listed under Motor Controllers, Mechanically-operated and Solid-state (NMFT)...........​


I think they were referring to hooking a switch up off of the load side of a gfi that would always (unless it is tripped) be on and using that to control the lights. Not using the buttons on the gfci to turn the lights on and off. 

I think that most of us are in agreement that regardless of the code....this is a very bad idea.....what about some kind of a low voltage solution?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Now really read it:

(D) Bathtub AND shower areas. 1,the other or both.

Does not say combination bathtub and shower areas.

relate it to MOTOR VEHICLES in Dmv rules. stated as such for a reason.
not Cars AND trucks. Coz that would leave out motorcycles.

Just my take on it.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

*Couldn't read the original....



480sparky said:


> UL White book KCXS.
> 
> .....The ‘‘TEST’’ and ‘‘RESET’’ buttons on the GFCIs are only intended to check for the proper functioning of the GFCI. They are not intended to be used as ‘‘ON/OFF’’ controls of motors or other loads unless the buttons are specifically marked ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF.’’ Products with ‘‘ON’’ and ‘‘OFF’’ markings have been additionally Listed under Motor Controllers, Mechanically-operated and Solid-state (NMFT)...........​





Kletis said:


> I think they were referring to hooking a switch up off of the load side of a gfi that would always (unless it is tripped) be on and using that to control the lights. Not using the buttons on the gfci to turn the lights on and off.
> 
> I think that most of us are in agreement that regardless of the code....this is a very bad idea.....what about some kind of a low voltage solution?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

sparkky052873 said:


> your not alowed to install a switch with in 5 ft of a shower or bathtub



I have heard that there are local amendments to the NEC in some areas that require the 5' clearance but it is not an NEC rule.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Says who?
> 
> NEC, local amendment, ???


Maybe Canada?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Maybe Canada?



Maybe...

Maybe Rhode Island?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I was hoping it was RI, Canada. :whistling2:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I was hoping it was RI, Canada. :whistling2:


Is that in Sweden? :blink:


I did not know there was an RI, Canada....I've only been to Quebec ~ and I was like 10.


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