# Fixture Tails



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Here's one for the forum...as it's a hot topic in NYC lately.
> 
> What is the minimum size conductor for fixture tails? The common holding is the age old 14AWG, however, as one delves deeper and depending on your interpretation one can go as low as 16AWG...
> 
> ...


I think it would be better if they only allowed # 10 or larger...:whistling2::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Here's one for the forum...as it's a hot topic in NYC lately.
> 
> What is the minimum size conductor for fixture tails?


From the 2011 NEC




> *240.5 Protection of Flexible Cords, Flexible Cables, and
> Fixture Wires.
> 
> (B)(2) Fixture Wire.* Fixture wire shall be permitted to be
> ...


Of course they have to be 'fixture wires' as specified in table 402.3.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> ...............However, some jurisdictions are now pushing for 12AWG for tails. ...........


Their logic being...............?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Their logic being...............?


You decide:

- #12 is better
- "what if" situations
- etc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> You decide:
> 
> - #12 is better
> - "what if" situations
> - etc



My guess is, "We're not electricians, so we don't know why."


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> My guess is, "We're not electricians, so we don't know why."












Same vein


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Well, my thoughts were this...if you look at 410.115 - 410.122 I believe the answer is there...in 410.117(C). Then you put it together with 402.5...it would mean 18AWG - 12AWG for tails...

What do you guys think?

Steve from NYC


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> I believe the answer is there...in 410.117(C). Then you put it together with 402.5...it would mean 18AWG - 12AWG for tails...
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think 410.117 only applies to some fixtures.



> *XI. Special Provisions for Flush and Recessed
> Luminaires
> 
> 410.110 General.* Luminaires installed in recessed cavities
> ...


.

On the other hand I think 240.5 applies to all fixtures unless modified by Article 410.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I think NYC is wacked.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I think NYC is wacked.



Best post ever........ :laughing:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I think NYC is wacked.


And...?

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll give you an example of just how "whacked" we are...NYC has 269 Amendments that sit on TOP of the 2008 NEC.

Steve from NYC


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> I'll give you an example of just how "whacked" we are...NYC has 269 Amendments that sit on TOP of the 2008 NEC.
> 
> Steve from NYC


#12 wire for everything, RMC, BX ....but yet ConEd can run three #6s to feed thru five houses. Try getting proper voltage doing a 200 amp upgrade tapping off that.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> #12 wire for everything, RMC, BX ....but yet ConEd can run three #6s to feed thru five houses. Try getting proper voltage doing a 200 amp upgrade tapping off that.


Two words sum up Con Ed....

FREE AIR

LOL

Steve from NYC


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Two words sum up Con Ed....
> 
> FREE AIR
> 
> ...


No, in conduit underground.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> No, in conduit underground.


Oh I know...about 20 something years ago, I just got my A Card and the company I was with did every Fayva Shoe Store in 4 out of 5 Boroughs of NYC. I was given one on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. Brand new reno job. Myself and a helper, about a 5 week job. When it came time for the service, I had to replace the existing end line box, go over to a meter, then a 200A disconnect. I had already ran the conduit upstairs to the 42 circuit panel. (Just about every service in Brooklyn, NY is underground whereas just about every service in Queens is above ground.)

So anyway...I pop open the existing ancient end line box and I'm like WHAT THE F*CK?? There are what appears to be #6 AWG's...but with FAT insulation. Now remember...as you guys do...there were no cell phones then. It's late, because this had to be done after all the other trades left the jobsite and it's just me and a kid. I had a spanky new A Card and couldn't call my Super and look like an idiot. 

So.....

I go to a payphone outside and call my old man, who...along with my grandfather were also in the trade...and describe the wire to him. 

This was my first introduction to lead sheathed cable. A god damned horror show! 

There were indeed #6's...and I had to use a razor knife, *****, and a WHOLE lot of patience to skin back the insulation so I could bug onto the...hmm I think it was 2/0 at the time. 

For the younguns...Lead Sheathed Cable has a layer of rubber, a layer of LEAD, another layer of rubber, and then the copper conductor. What that means is...

You can NOT just cut the wire...if you did, you would blow your ass up. Also remember, this was the mid 80's...no one did Utility Shut Downs then...because you are charged for that and it just wasn't done. So this had to be done live. 

It's like opening one of those old canned hams...with the key...you have to peel each layer off...to get to the copper, and then cut the wire, then peel more off so you can bug the other conductor on. 

Anyway...after I was done...at like midnight...nerves SHOT...I went home, crashed, and made a note to call Con Ed the next day. 

What they told me blew my mind. They said, that the underground transformer vault is no more than 10' from my POE. Therefore, with that conductor, 200A is more than adequate. I was shocked. I kept telling the guy...but #6 is for 60A! How can you tell me that it will handle a commercial space that's open for 12 hours a day. The engineer on the phone said, it can. Thank you. And hung up on me. LOL 

So yeah...Con Ed is f*cked up. They aren't required to abide by any Code other their own. In NYC it's called the Blue Book. I know other jurisdictions have similar "books" for their services. 

Steve from NYC


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Oh I know...about 20 something years ago, I just got my A Card and the company I was with did every Fayva Shoe Store in 4 out of 5 Boroughs of NYC. I was given one on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. Brand new reno job. Myself and a helper, about a 5 week job. When it came time for the service, I had to replace the existing end line box, go over to a meter, then a 200A disconnect. I had already ran the conduit upstairs to the 42 circuit panel. (Just about every service in Brooklyn, NY is underground whereas just about every service in Queens is above ground.)
> 
> So anyway...I pop open the existing ancient end line box and I'm like WHAT THE F*CK?? There are what appears to be #6 AWG's...but with FAT insulation. Now remember...as you guys do...there were no cell phones then. It's late, because this had to be done after all the other trades left the jobsite and it's just me and a kid. I had a spanky new A Card and couldn't call my Super and look like an idiot.
> 
> ...


Yeah that lead sheath, we pretty much become surgeons when dealing with it. The rubber in between is usually dry rotted from heat . Con Ed by far is the most f'd up utility company.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Only dealt with lead once in 18yrs! City of Reading has " underground network" on a coupl streets in downtown district! The meterbases are in the basement and specs say to use a ug meterbase with a 3" pvc ta for entrance into the mb as a bushing basically!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Exactly...you had to be a surgeon to work with or around it. In 26yrs I've only come across it twice. In that same time, I've also come across unlabeled DC here in NYC once also! You want to talk about sweating bullets!! WOW. Some of the real old buildings in lower Manhattan used to have DC elevators. The DC services were all disconnected in the 70's...yeah...right. I had a service call to a building and while in the basement that was supposed to have ONE house panel...had two. I was like...hmmm that's odd....

And why is it painted black? I had no clue...So I opened it up to see what free "breakers" there were. Only they weren't regular breakers! So I was confused...you know...when that little warning goes off in your head...I remembered seeing a Con Ed truck up the block from the building so I leave and go to the truck. I introduce myself to the 2 guys and tell them what I found. They didn't believe me and walk with me back to the address. Once they saw it, they looked at each other and I swear on a cross...the look of shock/fear in their faces after they tested it, saw it was live. HA! I still didn't know it was DC! One guy looked at the entrance conductors...RH wire...all rotted to ****...and goes..we gotta call this in. I go to put the cover back on and they GRAB ME. LOL I was like dude...WTF?!

The one older guy goes...son...it's BLACK...and it's LIVE...

I go..um...ok...let go of me. LOL

He goes...you don't know what this is do you. I go no...

He replies, it's a live 250A DC line unfused to the street!

DC?!? 

He goes yeah...this isn't supposed to exist. At all. So they call it in, a Supervisor shows up, my Super shows up, and then a Con Ed Red Truck shows up and they start working in the street outside the building. Turned out there was a manhole that was covered up! And yeah...the damn thing could have blown up at any minute once I disturbed it. 

Talk about scary ****!

Steve from NYC


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