# Wirenuts for aluminum wire



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Here's the MSDS from Ideal for NoAlox, ALCU wirenuts and normal wirenuts. After reading the MSDS I'd be completely comfortable using NOAlox in a normal wirenut on copper and aluminum wire. 

http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/msds/twister_al-cu_msds.pdf
http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/msds/noalox_msds.pdf
http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/msds/twister_msds.pdf

As always it's up to you in the end. After reading the MSDS it really looks like all Ideal does is put NOAlox in a wirenut.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

How about installing aluminum receptacles? They cost around $1.00 at HD. That will save around $6.50 an outlet.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

someone was trying to sell a mess of them on here about 3-5 weeks ago.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/what-do-2000-30-365-wire-nuts-16076/#post275121


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Tapeman said:


> I have a job where I am installing copper pigtails on receptacles in a house wired in the '70s' with aluminum romex.
> 
> Ideal makes a wirenut listed for this, but they cost $2.50 each!
> 
> ...


whatever you decide to do, be careful, aluminum likes to break and snap


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## ff500 (Sep 13, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> How about installing aluminum receptacles? They cost around $1.00 at HD. That will save around $6.50 an outlet.


They do not make a tamper proof rec for aluminum wire, at least not a month ago.

I priced a similiar job and priced it with the purple wirenuts, about $2.00 per wirenut.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

ff500 said:


> They do not make a tamper proof rec for aluminum wire, at least not a month ago.
> 
> I priced a similiar job and priced it with the purple wirenuts, about $2.00 per wirenut.


OK. Different code cycles here. TP not required where I'm at.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

ff500 said:


> They do not make a *tamper proof *rec for aluminum wire,


If they did, how would you plug anything into them? :no:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> If they did, how would you plug anything into them? :no:


 

:laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> If they did, how would you plug anything into them? :no:



By not tampering with them. :whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> After reading the MSDS it really looks like all Ideal does is put NOAlox in a wirenut.


Don't forget the price increase.


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> How about installing aluminum receptacles? They cost around $1.00 at HD. That will save around $6.50 an outlet.


Don't those need to be re-torqued every 5 years according to the manufacturers? I would not trust an aluminum wire wrapped around a screw no matter what the device is rated for! I've done a lot of houses T&M and charge $3.15 per wirenut. Some of my clients opt to do one floor at a time. I'm in the middle of 2 of them now. They'll call when they have the $$$ for the next phase.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Using the Ideal purples is a better deal than anything else I have seen on the market.

You can put decora devices if that comes into play.

Now the big question is what do you do with the neutrals in all the switch boxes??

They are connected with a (30) year old brown wire nuts most likely,

All this work and how could you possibly leave them alone.. :blink:

They don't make a wire nut for AL/AL, so you either use a purple or leave the (30) year old wire nut.

Purples are only rated for AL/CU combinations.. in case you asked.. 

I used the purple.. IMO it is a better job changing all the wire nuts and this is what I charge the customer for.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> How about installing aluminum receptacles? They cost around $1.00 at HD. That will save around $6.50 an outlet.


Sometimes the wires are really short to begin with.. so you either strip for a new loop or take a chance using the old one.

Problem is the wire could snap off the terminal and you won't know it till the power is back on.

Now you have to find where the broken wire is..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Now the big question is what do you do with the neutrals in all the switch boxes??


No touchy. :no: Or you can rewire that switch with copper and jbox in the attic and whatnot, I've had to do that when I've come across toasted Al neutrals.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

One more thing that is important..

I won't do a pigtail job without putting all the circuits on AFCI breakers.

The customers I have pigtailed for don't mind the added cost because of the safety factor of the AFCI.. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> No touchy. :no: Or you can rewire that switch with copper and jbox in the attic and whatnot, I've had to do that when I've come across toasted Al neutrals.


Say there is no attic.. you going to pigtail the neutrals?? :blink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Say there is no attic.. you going to pigtail the neutrals?? :blink:


Then defiantly no touching them. I guess if the box was big enough you could pigtail each Al neutral and then make the copper up with a regular nut.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What is this "touchy" thing you keep babbling about?:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> ..........I won't do a pigtail job without putting all the circuits on AFCI breakers........



What does pigtailing have to do with AFCIs?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Another option is the Alumiconns, they are Al/Al rated. Or a small Al rated split bolt if you want to go old school.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What does pigtailing have to do with AFCIs?


Just in case there is a buried splice box somewhere.. the AFCI is just another safety factor.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Just in case there is a buried splice box somewhere.. the AFCI is just another safety factor.


What do you do if you can't get AFCI's for the panel? And they don't want to drop the cash on a panel or service change.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Just in case there is a buried splice box somewhere.. the AFCI is just another safety factor.



Fine, but what does pigtailing have to do with AFCI protection?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> What do you do if you can't get AFCI's for the panel? And they don't want to drop the cash on a panel or service change.


So far that has not happened.. I would not do the job if AFCI protection is not part of it.

That is just how I roll.. too much liability with AL wire to begin with.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> What do you do if you can't get AFCI's for the panel? And they don't want to drop the cash on a panel or service change.



He'll install a new service for the 'going rate' of installing new services for people who don't want to pay for it........ which will be $0.00. :whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> He'll install a new service for the 'going rate' of installing new services for people who don't want to pay for it........ which will be $0.00.


:laughing::laughing:


So you do a lot of free work B4T?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> He'll install a new service for the 'going rate' of installing new services for people who don't want to pay for it........ which will be $0.00. :whistling2:


Ok we get it

One trick pony


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have worked out payment plans with people many times in the past where work needed to be done, but no money in the budget.

Never got burned either by someone not paying me in full.. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Fine, but what does pigtailing have to do with AFCI protection?


I can't believe your asking me this.. _twice_.. :blink: :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I can't believe your asking me this.. _twice_.. :blink: :no:



Because you haven't answered me.

There's two types of circuits with pigtails in them... those you _didn't_ do, and those that you _did_.

If you didn't do them, and you arrive at someone's house and found a pigtail in a box, you're saying there's a good chance there's a buried box somewhere and the circuit suddenly requires AFCI protection? Conversely, if there's no pigtails anywhere, how does that magically mean there simply cannot be any buried boxes?

If you did the pigtails yourself, does that mean you're so inept that there's a chance you buried a box somewhere?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

How often do you run into aluminum wiring on smaller branch circuits? I haven't come across any in years.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> How often do you run into aluminum wiring on smaller branch circuits? I haven't come across any in years.


There are thousands of houses here with it.

Some guys ran AL for all 15A circuits and CU for all 20A circuits.

Then there are the ones who used it for everything.. #10 AL in the kitchen, dining room, and WM..


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## ff500 (Sep 13, 2010)

Sorry, I meant the TR receptacles. :001_huh:

Anyways I priced it at $25.00 per device to change in hopes I wouldn't get the job, and I didn't. It could become an insurance nightmare if something were to happen, especially in a 10 story low income apartment building with FPE panels.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Does anyone else here have trouble understanding using AFCI breakers on circuits I am pigtailing?? :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Does anyone else here have trouble understanding using AFCI breakers on circuits I am pigtailing?? :blink:



So, YOU are installing the pigtails?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So, YOU are installing the pigtails?


Yes..isn't that what this thread is about.. AL wire repair?? :blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Yes..isn't that what this thread is about.. AL wire repair?? :blink:



Yes. But still...... you install AFCI on circuits that you pigtail because, as you put it.....



Black4Truck said:


> Just in case there is a buried splice box somewhere.. the AFCI is just another safety factor.


So...... why pigtail then? Not pigtailing means there's no buried boxes! Now you've save the cost of an AFCI breaker!


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

I think that B4T is saying that the AFCI adds another level of protection to a less than ideal situation. The old type aluminum wire was very brittle and prone to break in places that were not directly at the termination point. 

Y'all are more brave than me. I would not want to do aluminum romex repairs.
That stuff was the worst idea ever installed in the electric trade.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

varmit said:


> I think that B4T is saying that the AFCI adds another level of protection to a less than ideal situation. The old type aluminum wire was very brittle and prone to break in places that were not directly at the termination point.......


I understand that.... but what the he11 does _pigtailing_ in a box have to do with the possibility of _buried boxes_?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I understand that.... but what the he11 does _pigtailing_ in a box have to do with the possibility of _buried boxes_?


It depends on if the box is buried in the wall or out in the front yard at grade level prior to laying sod.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I understand that.... but what the he11 does _pigtailing_ in a box have to do with the possibility of _buried boxes_?



.. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!.... I am saying the house is 30+ years old and might have splice boxes in attic or walls.

Houses that old have most likely been remodeled a few times.

I am not going to try and find the unknown.. instead I am installing AFCI breakers on the circuits that have AL wire..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

So basically B4T you are putting AFCI's in not because you pigtailed the Al but as a CYA measure.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> So basically B4T you are putting AFCI's in not because you pigtailed the Al but as a CYA measure.



*YESSSSSSSSSS... :thumbsup::thumbsup:*


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh, now it makes _perfect _sense.



Black4Truck said:


> .............I won't do a pigtail job without putting all the circuits on AFCI breakers..........





Black4Truck said:


> Just in case there is a buried splice box somewhere.. the AFCI is just another safety factor.


:001_huh:


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## Tapeman (Feb 24, 2009)

I am not planning on AFCI breakers as there are multi wire circuits and their budget will not allow it anyway. I guess I will bite the bullet and buy the purple wirenuts. I can get them for $210./ hundred if I buy 200 or more.


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## Cal Pacific (Nov 8, 2010)

*Regular Wire nuts w/ AL/Cu with No Lox*

Back about 10 years ago, an old boss of mine had me go to a site he had already addressed with Cu pigtails and he used regular wire nuts and added no-lox conductor fluid. I found 6 different boxes that had burned wire nuts that weren't even related to the orignal problem that the home owner called us for. He was convinced that this was the way to handle the Aluminum to Cu pigtails to save costs. Also the Purple Wire nuts are rated for AL-AL and Cu-Cu and obviously Cu-Al. I also agree with AFCI protection on these branch circuits. Most likely an arc would form at some point at the poor connection and this could help keep a house from burning. Hidden boxes that an electrician would never see are actually quite common. I can't tell you how many times I had to troubleshoot a bad connection that was either hidden in the wall or made inaccessible unless you cut an access panel to find the bad connection. Here is a link to show that the wire nuts are compatible for AL-AL. In all the homes we provide pigtails in we provide purple wire nuts for all conductors except for the grounding conductor. http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_termination/twist-on/twister_al-cu.jsp


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If you read the MSDS the stuff is the same. I'm not saying it's as good as using the correct nuts but it does seem to be the same NoAlox


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## Cal Pacific (Nov 8, 2010)

I have never seen a wirenut for Cu/Al that wasn't purple. And using a wirenut only rated for Cu would be a violation. Am I missing something?


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Cal Pacific said:


> Back about 10 years ago, an old boss of mine had me go to a site he had already addressed with Cu pigtails and he used regular wire nuts and added no-lox conductor fluid. I found 6 different boxes that had burned wire nuts that weren't even related to the orignal problem that the home owner called us for. He was convinced that this was the way to handle the Aluminum to Cu pigtails to save costs. Also the Purple Wire nuts are rated for AL-AL and Cu-Cu and obviously Cu-Al. I also agree with AFCI protection on these branch circuits. Most likely an arc would form at some point at the poor connection and this could help keep a house from burning. Hidden boxes that an electrician would never see are actually quite common. I can't tell you how many times I had to troubleshoot a bad connection that was either hidden in the wall or made inaccessible unless you cut an access panel to find the bad connection. Here is a link to show that the wire nuts are compatible for AL-AL. In all the homes we provide pigtails in we provide purple wire nuts for all conductors except for the grounding conductor. http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_termination/twist-on/twister_al-cu.jsp


The only ratings I saw had AL to CU. Some had multiple ALs w/ a CU. I didn't see anything that listed it for straight AL to AL. I may have overlooked it.


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## Cal Pacific (Nov 8, 2010)

*Purple Wirenuts*

Actually just found that it works only Cu-Al and Cu-Cu. It states do not use on Aluminum to Aluminum in both charts. Here is the link http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/references/ideal_ul_listed_combinations.pdf


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Cal Pacific said:


> Actually just found that it works only Cu-Al and Cu-Cu. It states do not use on Aluminum to Aluminum in both charts. Here is the link http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/references/ideal_ul_listed_combinations.pdf


That's what I remembered. I have done it though.


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