# FPE Replacement Breakers



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

This is such a DYI question, I feel shamed for even asking...

A friend of mine wants to add a dryer in his unfinished basement in addition to his existing dryer, for what reason I have no clue.

Existing 200A service, FPE panel and breakers.

I've urged him to replace the service because the cost of new breakers can be costly and Arc Faults aren't available. But for the time being he is completely uninterested in that.

There's a local and rather reputable guy around who specializes in the oddities of the industry and my former company uses him religiously to purchase replacement FPE products. I'm going to give him a call tomorrow and get a price for a 2pole 30A breaker.

What I'm wondering is if there is a more cost effective route other than changing the service to get a replacement breaker. Is there anything listed out there for direct replacement? The supply house turned me loose onto a Thomas and Betts TB230C that's listed for Challenger but not outright listed for FPE.

I'm a little unsure about this subject as I have no great experience with FPE products, it was before my time but I've heard all the good stories.

Are the T&B breakers legit for use in the FPE panel or would I be better off seeking out the actual FPE breaker?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

does he ever plan on using both dryers at the same time


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I've heard some blowes etc sell them. I have a slew of used ones. Just changed another one friday. That one had some brown colored aftermarket breakers in it.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The first thing to find out is whether you need a thin or thick type. A lot of these panels, maybe all will accept both. Looking at some images of the TB breaker, thats not going to fit. FPE is unique. There are plenty of places selling FPE stuff online. Seeing some of the images will help you better see what you need. There NA and NC, thick and thin types. Think like tandems or cheaters for the thins.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You can buy new, FPE, we rely on oldies?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> The first thing to find out is whether you need a thin or thick type. A lot of these panels, maybe all will accept both. Looking at some images of the TB breaker, thats not going to fit. FPE is unique. There are plenty of places selling FPE stuff online. Seeing some of the images will help you better see what you need. There NA and NC, thick and thin types. Think like tandems or cheaters for the thins.



You are correct. In the pic I posted are "thins" full size and aftermarket brand breakers.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I have a half size double 30 FPE I will send you for free just PM me were to send it.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Menards carries them if you have one in your area. For what it's worth friend family or whoever if this is a side job paid or not I would not touch a FPE panel without insurance.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Shame on your supply house. The T&B TB230C is a classified replacement breaker, but it will NEVER fit in an FPE panel in a million years. It only fits the Westinghouse-style bus, like Challenger, Arrow Hart, Seimens, Bryant, Westinghouse, Homeline, Cutler-Hammer BR, etc. The only replcement breakers I know of for FPE are made by a company called American Circuit Breaker Company. They morphed into Connecticut Electric Products sometime around 2005-ish for some reason, and now they're made under that name. Same company. 

http://www.connecticut-electric.com...log/6cfc4c7c-b1d1-4f55-9673-897e6f8b1b34.aspx


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I've used the Connecticut Electric replacements of both FPE and Zinsco and haven't had any real problems.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Shame on your supply house. The T&B TB230C is a classified replacement breaker, but it will NEVER fit in an FPE panel in a million years. It only fits the Westinghouse-style bus, like Challenger, Arrow Hart, Seimens, Bryant, Westinghouse, Homeline, Cutler-Hammer BR, etc. The only replcement breakers I know of for FPE are made by a company called American Circuit Breaker Company. They morphed into Connecticut Electric Products sometime around 2005-ish for some reason, and now they're made under that name. Same company.
> 
> http://www.connecticut-electric.com...log/6cfc4c7c-b1d1-4f55-9673-897e6f8b1b34.aspx


OK Skunk, I respect your opinion. Would you use that breaker in an existing FPE panel? I would.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

MDShunk just posted a link to the one's Menards carries. Connecticut Electric used to package Siemens ITE breakers into a package that said interchangeable and then listed about 50 different brands on it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> ............. I would not touch a FPE panel without insurance.


I touch 'em all the time.

The last time I touch 'em is when they're getting tossed in the trash bin.:laughing:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I touch 'em all the time.
> 
> The last time I touch 'em is when they're getting tossed in the trash bin.:laughing:


You touch 'em with insurance. I sense that the OP is about to do a favor job for a buddy and I'm stating my opinion that unless I had company insurance covering me I would not do it even as a favor.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> does he ever plan on using both dryers at the same time


I'm sure at some point they will both be on at the same time. I'm really not sure of what his intentions are with this one.



nrp3 said:


> The first thing to find out is whether you need a thin or thick type. A lot of these panels, maybe all will accept both. Looking at some images of the TB breaker, thats not going to fit. FPE is unique...


I looked quickly into it an they appeared to be the thicker of the two, but now that you mention it I do remember seeing some thin ones lying around the shop. I'll double check.



brian john said:


> You can buy new, FPE, we rely on oldies?


I was completely unaware of that. I don't deal with them at all other than removing them. 



MDShunk said:


> Shame on your supply house. The T&B TB230C is a classified replacement breaker, but it will NEVER fit in an FPE panel in a million years. It only fits the Westinghouse-style bus, like Challenger, Arrow Hart, Seimens, Bryant, Westinghouse, Homeline, Cutler-Hammer BR, etc. The only replcement breakers I know of for FPE are made by a company called American Circuit Breaker Company. They morphed into Connecticut Electric Products sometime around 2005-ish for some reason, and now they're made under that name. Same company.
> 
> http://www.connecticut-electric.com...log/6cfc4c7c-b1d1-4f55-9673-897e6f8b1b34.aspx


Thanks for the heads up on that Marc, I wasn't keen on the guy behind the counter telling me that it would work. I know about selective coordination and I wasn't buying it.



MF Dagger said:


> For what it's worth friend family or whoever if this is a side job paid or not I would not touch a FPE panel without insurance.


I'm really pushing him to go for the service change. I honestly see this as a waste of both time and money.



480sparky said:


> I touch 'em all the time.
> 
> The last time I touch 'em is when they're getting tossed in the trash bin.:laughing:


That's about the extent of my experience with this stuff.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I pull them out all the time and generally don't throw them away.

I would install one in a heartbeat if I couldn't sell an upgrade. I tell customers to Google Federal Pacific breakers and they usually bite.

Home Depot used to carry replacements but I have so many old ones, I don't remember the last time I bought one.

I pulled this one out of a 1970ish residence a couple weeks ago and the breakers were really clean. Will they trip if required?????


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

220/221 said:


> I pull them out all the time and generally don't throw them away.
> 
> I would install one in a heartbeat if I couldn't sell an upgrade. I tell customers to Google Federal Pacific breakers and they usually bite.
> 
> ...


He's had me at his house before because one of the circuits wouldn't stop tripping. Found an old cloth wire from some old BX that had the insulation worn off in the right spot and the receptacle was loose and over time it just got into the right spot against the metal box. It took me 2 hours of divide and conquer. That breaker works just fine, it got it's exercise that day.

I checked online for the CE replacements and one site wanted $70+, Amazon wanted $40, any way you look at it I'm getting ed on shipping.

I think I might pull the panel cover and look for any water damage or corrosion or any real reason to change the service other than it being FPE, because that's more of a visible selling point and a wake up call to the HO.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Thats a good photo. Take a look and see whats in there. Those are all NA, ie thick ones. There are two spaces for single pole thick ones. If you look online at the photos of the breakers you'll see that the stabs that poke into the buss are different for the thicks and the thins, not that it matters. The big thing is that if you have two adjacent thick spaces available and use a two pole thin (NC) you will need a couple of thin single poles to fill the empty spaces around it, or a couple of thin breaker blanks, if you can find them.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

220/221 said:


> I pull them out all the time and generally don't throw them away.
> 
> I would install one in a heartbeat if I couldn't sell an upgrade. I tell customers to Google Federal Pacific breakers and they usually bite.
> 
> ...



I would not feel comfortable installing a used FPE circuit breaker unless it was tested and approved for reuse.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I was looking at one site for instance and they mention tested. After reading some of what had been posted in the past about breaker testing, I might be skeptical too.


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## Wiredude (May 14, 2010)

Check around, I can get new replacements (labeled as "Federal Pioneer", so maybe they're Canadian imports?) from 2 supply houses within 10 miles of our shop. In fact, I had to buy one less than a month ago, customer did not want to bite on a full service change. Cost like $95 though.
That one was a full-size, the other supply house had the 'mini' for basically the same price.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I pulled this one out of a 1970ish residence a couple weeks ago and the breakers were really clean. Will they trip if required?????


God only knows, and He ain't talking.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I pull them out all the time and generally don't throw them away.
> 
> II pulled this one out of a 1970ish residence a couple weeks ago and the breakers were really clean. Will they trip if required?????


Send them to me, I'll test them, just for grins and then trash them.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> He's had me at his house before because one of the circuits wouldn't stop tripping. Found an old cloth wire from some old BX that had the insulation worn off in the right spot and the receptacle was loose and over time it just got into the right spot against the metal box. It took me 2 hours of divide and conquer. That breaker works just fine, it got it's exercise that day.
> 
> I checked online for the CE replacements and one site wanted $70+, Amazon wanted $40, any way you look at it I'm getting ed on shipping.
> 
> I think I might pull the panel cover and look for any water damage or corrosion or any real reason to change the service other than it being FPE, because that's more of a visible selling point and a wake up call to the HO.


 I wasn't joking I have some and wouldn't mind sending you one for free I don't sell them just keep them around for late nite emergencys we have hundreds of homes in this area built in the 70s that have them.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> I wasn't joking I have some and wouldn't mind sending you one for free I don't sell them just keep them around for late nite emergencys we have hundreds of homes in this area built in the 70s that have them.


 

Then , you have hundreds of service changes that need to be done.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Wiredude said:


> Check around, I can get new replacements (labeled as "Federal Pioneer", so maybe they're Canadian imports?) from 2 supply houses within 10 miles of our shop. In fact, I had to buy one less than a month ago, customer did not want to bite on a full service change. Cost like $95 though.
> That one was a full-size, the other supply house had the 'mini' for basically the same price.


I just got back from Cheapo and they no longer carry Connecticut Electric products in the store, I might try a couple of other supply houses tomorrow if I strike out with the local guy that my former company deals with. 



doubleoh7 said:


> Then , you have hundreds of service changes that need to be done.


With QO panels nonetheless.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

we can get them everywhere in canada, they are now sell by schneider electric
http://www.schneider-electric.ca/ca...on_id=5100&p_family_id=15201&p_range_id=7227#


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

oliquir said:


> we can get them everywhere in canada, they are now sell by schneider electric
> http://www.schneider-electric.ca/ca...on_id=5100&p_family_id=15201&p_range_id=7227#


And those Federal Pioneer are listed for use in older Federal Pacifics?


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## pesdfw (Jun 23, 2010)

If you replace a breaker in it you were the last one to touch it so you become responsible. I would rather be safe and just walk away than to start adding an additional load to a panel that is known to burn down homes.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

pesdfw said:


> If you replace a breaker in it you were the last one to touch it so you become responsible. I would rather be safe and just walk away than to start adding an additional load to a panel that is known to burn down homes.


You're right, I'll just tap it off the load side of the meter, bypass a listed breaker altogether, it works doesn't it?

I've had zero luck finding anything local so far, Granite City couldn't pull anything up on the Federal Pioneer breakers, I need to locate a part number. 

I won't lose any sleep at night putting a properly sized breaker on a set of properly sized conductors serving a load that won't exceed the rating of the breaker inside of a panel that it's listed to be used in. 

Did you miss the part where he doesn't want a service change? It's probably going to run him around $2,500 - $3,000 as it's a two family dwelling and both have FPE panels and if you're going to do one, you might as well do both.

Edit: I just located them on HD's website for Canada, so I have part numbers but they're only NC's and no NA's.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I hate to say it, but Amazon.com. or Relectric. I don't think I'd go ebay for breakers. Figure out whether you need the NA or NC, try for new if you can, and do it. I know I'll get flamed for this, and I'd love to sell a whole change out too, but it is what it is. I deal with 100's of these in the apts that I work on. I change the panel if the buss is burnt, replace breakers when I need too. I still sleep well at night.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

pesdfw said:


> If you replace a breaker in it you were the last one to touch it so you become responsible. I would rather be safe and just walk away than to start adding an additional load to a panel that is known to burn down homes.


 
If we did that 10-15% of our work would go to our competition. FPE in 1970 high rises is everywhere, just like homes. We perform EPM and testing on FPE switchboards all the time and recently rebuilt several 4000 amp switches in FPE boards.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Alright, I'll say this.

If you guys can provide me literature on the history of FPE panels and the problems that occur with them to physically show the HO, I would appreciate it. 

I'm not keen on the idea of adding into an existing FPE panel, certainly not keen with using an old or reconditioned breaker. The only way this is getting done is if I can acquire a new Federal Pioneer breaker.

Like I said earlier, what he's asking for makes absolutely no sense to me and I see no logic behind it at all. It's an opportunity to make a little cash on the side and nothing more. If I do something I'm going to do it right and charge accordingly. 

I'm trying to get him to go for the service change, but he's the type of guy that there isn't a problem until there's a problem. We all know of the stigma involved with FPE but without actual evidence to show him, I'm going to have a real hard time selling it to him.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Search for this part number for new NA: UBIF230N
NC: UBIF0230N

*http://www.connecticut-electric.com/ConnecticutElectric/wwwroot/files/ZJRJ9705ZJ.pdf
*


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Furthermore he has to understand with these, if you want to play (not replace the whole panel) then you have to pay. Wait till you have to source some of the bolt in ones. I've got those too. Sometimes there comes a point where it is close to the cost of changing the panel when you have enough breakers to add. When I replace these in the apartments I go to QO because that is the second most common brand they have. Zinsco is there as well as GE.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Furthermore he has to understand with these, if you want to play (not replace the whole panel) then you have to pay. Wait till you have to source some of the bolt in ones. I've got those too. Sometimes there comes a point where it is close to the cost of changing the panel when you have enough breakers to add. When I replace these in the apartments I go to QO because that is the second most common brand they have. Zinsco is there as well as GE.


I'm hoping that once I present him with my price that he thinks twice about everything. I'm going heavy on the markup, the one 2pole 30 is going to be more than half the cost of a new 40 space QO panel.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess it depends on whether you want it or not. Sometimes better to get some than nothing. I like QO and use it some situations, but don't overlook Siemens, GE, or Cutler Hammer BR. You may find a lower cost happy medium to get the whole replacement. Sell, sell, sell.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> I guess it depends on whether you want it or not. Sometimes better to get some than nothing. I like QO and use it some situations, but don't overlook Siemens, GE, or Cutler Hammer BR. You may find a lower cost happy medium to get the whole replacement. Sell, sell, sell.


I'm going to try and upsell. I have no objection using other brands, I've installed a lot of Siemens, Cutler Hammer and GE products and have no gripes about their quality or construction, but will always try to upsell to a QO and use the Trip Indicator as a selling point. Some go for it, some don't.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I would have had this thing installed and spent the money by now. :laughing:


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