# new lead man



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

i sent my newest lead man about 100 miles away with a decent helper on wednesday this week. he had 2 houses to rough in and i allotted 3 days for this (1750 sq,ft. track homes). he failed to get these done on time and went back sat to finish,returns around 1 oclock and still not complete,has about 3 hrs left. this kid has been with me about 4 yrs now and is a great helper but im torn if he is leadmam material now??. i literally pushed him on these houses and explained that he is tapped out on helpers pay,time to man-up and make the move upwards. personally i would work late/early or whatever i had to do my first time out to show my boss i can do it. i have explained all facets of overhead to him,gas prices,labor cost,general operating etc,and most important SCHEDULING. so he has a decent knowledge of what this costs me. now i wonder if i should let him do the next couple houses there or put him back where he was..


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

3 8 hour days? or just 3 days as long as you can work in a day?


----------



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Depends on how close his worksite was to the beach!

Sometimes bosses send people out not knowing the exact scope of work. Are you sure you have the numbers right?

I wouldn't turf him right away. Sometimes it takes a bit to get going if you're not used to it. Maybe he spent too much time planning, and was just scared to get started.

You know, you stand back scratching your head, and ask "where do I start?" Do that too long...

Why don't you talk to him about what happened. If he gets angry, maybe it's you. If he slouches and admits he underperformed, at least he knows he can do better. If he just stares and says "what?" maybe it's not his time.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> 3 8 hour days? or just 3 days as long as you can work in a day?


 in fairness, probably 6.5 hr days. they leave my shop at 6:30 or so then drive about 1.5 hrs then work till 3:30


----------



## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Basements?
Services?

What do you mean by roughing in?

Personally 100 km travel means 12 hour days


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> in fairness, probably 6.5 hr days. they leave my shop at 6:30 or so then drive about 1.5 hrs then work till 3:30


I don't do tract housing but that sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Have other guys in your shop been doing these houses in the time allotted? Can YOU do them this fast?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Depends on how close his worksite was to the beach!
> 
> Sometimes bosses send people out not knowing the exact scope of work. Are you sure you have the numbers right?
> 
> ...


kinda where i was on this,its not easy the first time on your own. yes my numbers are right (assuming you mean timeline) we usually do these houses in 1 day flat,for him i allotted 1.5


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm so glad I don't do tract houses.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I don't do tract housing but that sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Have other guys in your shop been doing these houses in the time allotted? Can YOU do them this fast?


 yes,and yes.. these are very basic, they only have 20 or so cans each.very basic. this helper can wire a custom home as fast,but only if a lead man is there doing the thinking for him, i think he overthinks everything, which to a degree.. is a good thing


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I'm so glad I don't do tract houses.


 DONT... there is no money in it. the only reason im doing this subdivision is the GC is one of my best customers that gives me alot of work each year


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> Basements?
> Services?
> 
> What do you mean by roughing in?
> ...


 yes.. about 85 miles from shop. about 1.5 hrs each way


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> Basements?
> Services?
> 
> What do you mean by roughing in?
> ...


 no basement, or service build, rough wiring only


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> DONT... there is no money in it. the only reason im doing this subdivision is the GC is one of my best customers that gives me alot of work each year


There is no money in them because you guys work like total fools instead of professinals.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> There is no money in them because you guys work like total fools instead of professinals.


 sorry i dont get what you mean by this?, we are as professional as they come. and my lowest paid guy knows how to spell "professional"


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

When I finished my apprenticeship and started working on my own, the first project they stuck me on was a f**king water treatment plant upgrade. BY MYSELF. New 1.5 million gallon tank with a pump building, had to tie the whole thing in with the existing system.

First year journeyman jumping on a job like that, I didn't know WHAT the f**k I was doing. I hauled ass and just tried to keep myself busy, called my more experienced coworkers a lot for advice, and just tried not to get totally flustered. In the end I finished up with like a 20% profit margin. Could have been worse but it SUCKED. However, even though I didn't make my boss much money on it, he was glad I finished it without going crazy. I learned a lot too, probably more than my whole apprenticeship combined :laughing:

So go easy on your new lead guy. He'll get the hang of it.

A day to rough in a house seems pretty brutal to me but I don't do much residentail so I'm slow at it


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> sorry i dont get what you mean by this?, we are as professional as they come. and my lowest paid guy knows how to spell "professional"


Don't pay much attention to Harry when he says stuff like that. You know as well as anyone that a well trained and organized crew can knock out a new house in no time flat and still make money on it. Sure, it's hard to, but if you have your system down and ducks in a row you can do it. I'd call that pretty professional myself.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> sorry i dont get what you mean by this?, we are as professional as they come. and my lowest paid guy knows how to spell "professional"


Thats good i'm glad he can spell..

I don't expect you to know what i mean.

You run a slave shop it's that simple.

You are bent on how fast "Your Best Helper" can run a job instead of a professional job if all you give your guys is a day to wire a house then you really have to wonder why you don't make any money on them..

And i'll bet the finished product looks real good.

Gee what do you pay your guys for that day $200 and a can of peanuts.:laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats good i'm glad he can spell..
> 
> I don't expect you to know what i mean.
> 
> ...


Harry, do you have any full time employees?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

erics37 said:


> When I finished my apprenticeship and started working on my own, the first project they stuck me on was a f**king water treatment plant upgrade. BY MYSELF. New 1.5 million gallon tank with a pump building, had to tie the whole thing in with the existing system.
> 
> First year journeyman jumping on a job like that, I didn't know WHAT the f**k I was doing. I hauled ass and just tried to keep myself busy, called my more experienced coworkers a lot for advice, and just tried not to get totally flustered. In the end I finished up with like a 20% profit margin. Could have been worse but it SUCKED. However, even though I didn't make my boss much money on it, he was glad I finished it without going crazy. I learned a lot too, probably more than my whole apprenticeship combined :laughing:
> i have felt that pain myself.. but it makes you a better worker overall.
> ...


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Don't pay much attention to Harry when he says stuff like that. You know as well as anyone that a well trained and organized crew can knock out a new house in no time flat and still make money on it. Sure, it's hard to, but if you have your system down and ducks in a row you can do it. I'd call that pretty professional myself.


Yup till the GC see's how fast it can be done then its time to shop around for a lower price..

Fast = financial suicide.....:laughing:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats good i'm glad he can spell..
> 
> I don't expect you to know what i mean.
> 
> ...


 in point of fact, read the OP and you will see that the helper in question has worked for me for 4 yrs,if you cant figure out the system in four yrs. something is wrong.. also my final product is above standard and furthermore who said i wasnt making money.. all i said was he didnt make it in the 3 allotted days, never mentioned losing or not making money


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> in point of fact, read the OP and you will see that the helper in question has worked for me for 4 yrs,if you cant figure out the system in four yrs. something is wrong.. also my final product is above standard and furthermore who said i wasnt making money.. all i said was he didnt make it in the 3 allotted days, never mentioned losing or not making money


You have to teach him how to be a lead man you cannot expect him to go from helper to lead man.

He will never learn if you push him into the ground and if he is still getting helper pay then there is no incentive for the guy to become a lead man.


----------



## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

Recycle Him!


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Don't pay much attention to Harry when he says stuff like that. You know as well as anyone that a well trained and organized crew can knock out a new house in no time flat and still make money on it. Sure, it's hard to, but if you have your system down and ducks in a row you can do it. I'd call that pretty professional myself.


 Thanks for the input.. we do not usually do trac homes but mostly custom stuff. but i would like to start this kid with smaller homes and move him up, im just a little pissed that he didnt meet deadline(for scheduling reasons only), but he wont know that. I am going to let this one go but casually mention it to him and i have confidence that he will pick it up a little. he is a good worker and a fine young man, so im sure he will do o.k.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Harry, do you have any full time employees?


Not any more thank you...:thumbsup:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> You have to teach him how to be a lead man you cannot expect him to go from helper to lead man.
> 
> He will never learn if you push him into the ground and if he is still getting helper pay then there is no incentive for the guy to become a lead man.


 i have done this, also i havent pushed too hard, but rather let him know that there is nowhere to go but up. I have offered the incentive, and also let him work with me personally and let him do the "lead man thing". material list,critical path (type) scheduling,and even given him his own helper under him(under me). it is this simple... he has the skill and ability, just doesnt seem to have the drive.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

also in all fairness to him. this is his first job where i told him to "take this van and go do this job" so i might be expecting a little too much. ONE MINOR FACT I LEFT OUT: he is also my nephew.. his dad is an EC, im an EC, his uncle is an EC, and his grandfather (our father) was an EC,and EE,and taught electrical theory. so i might be expecting alot from him


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> i have done this, also i havent pushed too hard, but rather let him know that there is nowhere to go but up. I have offered the incentive, and also let him work with me personally and let him do the "lead man thing". material list,critical path (type) scheduling,and even given him his own helper under him(under me). it is this simple... he has the skill and ability, just doesnt seem to have the drive.





> also i havent pushed too hard


Ok then i missread your first post then,,,My Bad,.


It is possible that he just needs more time to get used to being the man in charge verses have a lead man to go to.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> also in all fairness to him. this is his first job where i told him to "take this van and go do this job" so i might be expecting a little too much. ONE MINOR FACT I LEFT OUT: he is also my nephew.. his dad is an EC, im an EC, his uncle is an EC, and his grandfather (our father) was an EC,and EE,and taught electrical theory. so i might be expecting alot from him



That could be the problem right there he may be to comfortable..


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Ok then i missread your first post then,,,My Bad,.
> 
> 
> It is possible that he just needs more time to get used to being the man in charge verses have a lead man to go to.


 thats allright.. i totally agree with you here. i think he just needs a few under his belt and he will be ok,just gotta get his mind wrapped around "what am i going to do tommorrow with the help and projects i have"


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That could be the problem right there he may be to comfortable..


 i also think thats alot of it. MY UNCLE WOULDNT FIRE ME kinda thing. but my dad would fire my ass in a ny miniute if i wasnt making money.He would never let us get comfy.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> thats allright.. i totally agree with you here. i think he just needs a few under his belt and he will be ok,just gotta get his mind wrapped around "what am i going to do tommorrow with the help and projects i have"


 When i first became a Journeyman they put me in there sink or swim.

I don't have any one in my family that was an Electrician so i had no choice but to do it or get fired fast...:laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm glad I work for myself, Mr. Electric. If I miss the mark on something, it's my fault and the only conflicts I have are internal. I would not want to work for someone where lightening speed is required. Now I don't know enough about this house to know if your expectations are reasonable. I might make a judgement if I knew how many TOTAL openings are involved and whether they were putting the service and panel in too.

I like to work at a comfortable pace. I'm faster, in the end, that way. At that pace, I'm always thinking ahead, what is the next step, when I go back out to the truck, is there something else I need to bring back in, maybe there is something else I'm done with and an take back out to the truck. Things like that.

On new residential construction, how much time do you allow per opening for rough in?


----------



## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> thats allright.. i totally agree with you here. i think he just needs a few under his belt and he will be ok,just gotta get his mind wrapped around "what am i going to do tommorrow with the help and projects i have"


Even though he's doing the same job, going from taking orders to being put in the drivers seat is a big change the first few times out. Trying to remember all the things you're supposed to do, planning ahead, second guessing yourself, not wanting to screw the job up. There's a definite period of adjustment.

He's been with you 4 years and you say he's a good worker. If saw the potential in someone, I'd be willing to take a hit while he gets comfortable with the new position. So long as he shows signs of progress and an honest effort to do right by the company, I'd just keep encouraging him to do better.

If I was convinced he was taking the relations for granted, I'd make it pretty clear that I though so and I'd give him a chance to prove otherwise but if things didn't change I'd have to let him go.

It can be tough mixing family and business, I did it when I was a GC working with my dad and uncles. It played a small part of my walking away from the business. Though mostly I just wanted to get into something a little more focused and (read lucrative) strictly regulated.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> I don't do tract housing but that sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Have other guys in your shop been doing these houses in the time allotted? Can YOU do them this fast?


I'd like to say that I asked the new guy at work who had been doing tract housing how long they were taking. He said about 6 hours without services or basement finishes. So sorry I laid into you about the time.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I'd like to say that I asked the new guy at work who had been doing tract housing how long they were taking. He said about 6 hours without services or basement finishes. So sorry I laid into you about the time.


thats ok. he did finish todayBTW:thumbsup:
it all looks good. i think that my expectations may be a little higher for him because he has been with me for a while,and because he is family. He did say that the hardest obstacle to overcome was not having somebody to tell him where to get started. i simply explained that we have all been there and when you make a mistake, learn from it and move on. i need another resi. lead man and he is the next in line.its better than hiring somebody that you dont know their qualifications. im confident he will do better with time


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I'd like to say that I asked the new guy at work who had been doing tract housing how long they were taking. He said about 6 hours without services or basement finishes. So sorry I laid into you about the time.


 there is a company in town that does about 5 trac houses a day with one crew.
(no sh** i have personally seen it), but they land with a 6 man crew and everybody has a job of his own, one guy will lay out, one guy is allready drilling,another hanging/wiring cans and bath fans another pulling ckts right behind,lead man helps everywhere and starts cutting in sw joints, guy thats finished drilling is now cutting in plugs, everybody finishes at about same time go across the street and do it again. CRAZY!! what a system.. the funny part is a good crew doesnt do half bad work (all things considered)


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> i sent my newest lead man about 100 miles away with a decent helper on wednesday this week. he had 2 houses to rough in and i allotted 3 days for this (1750 sq,ft. track homes). he failed to get these done on time and went back sat to finish,returns around 1 oclock and still not complete,has about 3 hrs left. this kid has been with me about 4 yrs now and is a great helper but im torn if he is leadmam material now??. i literally pushed him on these houses and explained that he is tapped out on helpers pay,time to man-up and make the move upwards. personally i would work late/early or whatever i had to do my first time out to show my boss i can do it. i have explained all facets of overhead to him,gas prices,labor cost,general operating etc,and most important SCHEDULING. so he has a decent knowledge of what this costs me. now i wonder if i should let him do the next couple houses there or put him back where he was..


There is no f-ing way you sent one person with 1 green helper to rough 2 houses in in 3 days. You deserve to lose your ass on this job. What the f does a "decent Helper" mean. Say what you want you could not do that. So why should he.
Just out of Curiosity. What are you paying him.


----------



## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

2 Tract houses @ 1750 each. Assume 3 bedroom, 2 bath, with a 200amp service each. Low voltage consists of Doorbell, 3 home runs of CATV and 3 runs of Cat5 to the service, and garage door opener. Stop by parts house for will call order each day for 2 days.
You allowed 48 man-hours for the rough in. Then I hear that 1.5 x 2 (3 total) x 3 days deduction for driving. So the kid has 39 man-hours to do 3500 square feet? That’s BS. Especially a green lead.
You have him flying (ain’t going to happen)!
Fast would be at about 47 hours (2 units mirrored) with a well laid out plan – ready to fly. 
Reality would be 62 to 70 hours, especially first time out the door. Probably 75 if you’re lucky.
That’s the picture I have, and I wouldn’t want to be an actor in that show. If I was doing it, I could make it in 70 hours, but it would be a rock and roll show, and the first day would be a ten hour day, Maybe OT on the second day, third day be wrap up, and ready all holes for trim, do a walk through.
Just an opinion. 

Did I miss anything?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> There is no f-ing way you sent one person with 1 green helper to rough 2 houses in in 3 days. You deserve to lose your ass on this job. What the f does a "decent Helper" mean. Say what you want you could not do that. So why should he.
> Just out of Curiosity. What are you paying him.


 first, yes i did
second, i never said "green helper". is said "Decent". to me this means a helper that understands the basic circuitry for a bedroom,living room,smoke alarms etc.knows how to pull phone,cable etc.
third, i still cant remember ever saying i lost my ass on anything. maybe a lower profit margin than expected, thats all.
quite honestly HE would tell you that we do these houses within this time frame everytime that we get them,he would further tell you that its none of your business what i pay him but to make you feel better he makes $12 hr as a helper and will make 13 or 14 when he is comfy as a lead man. i am from up north and i know this is not even close to the payscale up there,but here that is fair wages, well within the industry standards here


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

Why don't you hire a journeyman and run a real electric business ?


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Say what you want but you can't rough-in a house and do the 200 ampere service in 36 hours. Anyone that says different is just bull****ting you.
$13 an hour? Why would he bust his ass? Crazy!


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> 2 Tract houses @ 1750 each. Assume 3 bedroom, 2 bath, with a 200amp service each. Low voltage consists of Doorbell, 3 home runs of CATV and 3 runs of Cat5 to the service, and garage door opener. Stop by parts house for will call order each day for 2 days.
> You allowed 48 man-hours for the rough in. Then I hear that 1.5 x 2 (3 total) x 3 days deduction for driving. So the kid has 39 man-hours to do 3500 square feet? That’s BS. Especially a green lead.
> You have him flying (ain’t going to happen)!
> Fast would be at about 47 hours (2 units mirrored) with a well laid out plan – ready to fly.
> ...


 totally agree here..:thumbsup:. no doubt i put it on him. but my only complaint with him here you will notice that i said he would work till 3:30,andcall it a day, personally i would stay till dark to get it done if i said i could. you seem to have a certain knowledge of this so you would also understand that, often we judge the quality of our leadmen by not only what they get done in a day,but also how hard they are willing to try and produce results. my experienced guys WILL do these same houses in a day flat and let me be CLEAR: he is experienced but not as a leadman yet


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> i sent my newest lead man about 100 miles away with a decent helper on wednesday this week. he had 2 houses to rough in and i allotted 3 days for this (1750 sq,ft. track homes). he failed to get these done on time and went back sat to finish,returns around 1 oclock and still not complete,has about 3 hrs left. this kid has been with me about 4 yrs now and is a great helper but im torn if he is leadmam material now??. i literally pushed him on these houses and explained that he is tapped out on helpers pay,time to man-up and make the move upwards. personally i would work late/early or whatever i had to do my first time out to show my boss i can do it. i have explained all facets of overhead to him,gas prices,labor cost,general operating etc,and most important SCHEDULING. so he has a decent knowledge of what this costs me. now i wonder if i should let him do the next couple houses there or put him back where he was..


People who think and treat their people like that make it easy for a union to come in. Have you possibly thought that you didn't bid them right? A good worker is a good worker.


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> totally agree here..:thumbsup:. no doubt i put it on him. but my only complaint with him here you will notice that i said he would work till 3:30,andcall it a day, personally i would stay till dark to get it done if i said i could. you seem to have a certain knowledge of this so you would also understand that, often we judge the quality of our leadmen by not only what they get done in a day,but also how hard they are willing to try and produce results. my experienced guys WILL do these same houses in a day flat and let me be CLEAR: he is experienced but not as a leadman yet


You pay OT to wire tract homes?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Mike_586 said:


> Even though he's doing the same job, going from taking orders to being put in the drivers seat is a big change the first few times out. Trying to remember all the things you're supposed to do, planning ahead, second guessing yourself, not wanting to screw the job up. There's a definite period of adjustment.
> 
> He's been with you 4 years and you say he's a good worker. If saw the potential in someone, I'd be willing to take a hit while he gets comfortable with the new position. So long as he shows signs of progress and an honest effort to do right by the company, I'd just keep encouraging him to do better.
> 
> ...


oh yes im with you.. i dont think he does take the family thing for granted, but it may be that im harder on him than i would be on some other guy.. maybe i expect too much from him because he is family


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Did you tell him to work OT. That changes everything. I could do that home in 3, 15 hour days. 
Sorry. What was I thinking. Give me the 12 bucks, I hope i'm salaried.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> People who think and treat their people like that make it easy for a union to come in. Have you possibly thought that you didn't bid them right? A good worker is a good worker.


 once again: I DID NOT LOSE MONEY on these jobs, but it was simply his first time out and i thought he couldve done better. not a union guy myself so i dont have an oppinion


----------



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Yup till the GC see's how fast it can be done then its time to shop around for a lower price..
> 
> Fast = financial suicide.....:laughing:


 I remember back my first year in the trade , contractor told me to replace 30 F96 -277V . ballasts at the el torito factory in irvine ca, I huAled ass down to the job...got my ladder ready and kicked ass ...at 7 dollars an hour i knocked out all 30 in one day ....i made all of $56.00:no: ..the contractor charged him $1500.00 he made a killing..el torito was  fiqured it would take 2 days...I NEVER WORKED THAT FAST AGAIN ,ONLY FOR MY SELF...


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Did you tell him to work OT. That changes everything. I could do that home in 3 !5 hour days.
> Sorry. What was I thinking. Give me the 12 bucks, I hope i'm salaried.


 all my guys know that if they need to work late its an open invitation if it will get it done.our problem is keeping schedules current and keeping up


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

ce2two said:


> I remember back my first year in the trade , contractor told me to replace 30 F96 -277V . ballasts at the el torito factory in irvine ca, I huAled ass down to the job...got my ladder ready and kicked ass ...at 7 dollars an hour i knocked out all 30 in one day ....i made all of $56.00:no: ..the contractor charged him $1500.00 he made a killing..el torito was  fiqured it would take 2 days...I NEVER WORKED THAT FAST AGAIN ,ONLY FOR MY SELF...


 WHAT NO BONUS!!! thats F***** up


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> all my guys know that if they need to work late its an open invitation if it will get it done.our problem is keeping schedules current and keeping up


So your paying OT, right?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Why don't you hire a journeyman and run a real electric business ?


 if you are looking for work id love to give ya a shot, as long as you are not one of the many "real" electrical companies i have seen come (AND GO) over the years


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

So. RNR Can you or could you ever "rough that house" in in 3 days. By your self??


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

K2500 said:


> So your paying OT, right?


 they are adequatley reimbursed for their time:whistling2:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> once again: I DID NOT LOSE MONEY on these jobs, but it was simply his first time out and i thought he couldve done better. not a union guy myself so i dont have an oppinion


I'll have to admit... your response to my post was a good one. Usually, people who are self-motivated and work well are the ones who start businesses. The problem usually is,is that they estimate as if they are doing the job. Not everyone that you hire has your motivation, but they CAN be good workers, and you have to learn how to accommodate that dynamic.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> So. RNR Can you or could you ever "rough that house" in in 3 days. By your self??


 absolutely NOT, but with a decent helper.. absolutely


----------



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

rnr electric said:


> WHAT NO BONUS!!! thats F***** up


 I quit 2 weeks later...Worked for a tract home ,spa/swimming pool contractor ....trimmed out 6-7 1000 sq.ft condo's a day ...no light fixtures ..7 dollars a hour .....took no breaks ...20 min. lunch no bonus:no::no:...was let go on christmas eve by phone ...he said i worked way too fast...I got a job in one day.....I was an athete, in the best of my life ..i was only 18 :laughing:


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> they are adequatley reimbursed for their time:whistling2:


I will take that as a no, no wonder he didn't work late.
14/hr + no OT pay for OT worked equals your a douche bag, or a troll.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I'll have to admit... your response to my post was a good one. Usually, people who are self-motivated and work well are the ones who start businesses. The problem usually is,is that they estimate as if they are doing the job. Not everyone that you hire has your motivation, but they CAN be good workers, and you have to learn how to accommodate that dynamic.


 this is very true. i have hand picked all of my guys on these criteria
must be able to see it through and get it done,MUST be able to get along with lead men,(period, end of discussion,no exceptions). and must be a team player, when i say this i mean that we all are in this together,the more i make the more "you"make. i am not stingey and when asked for a loan i never say no, but i take it outa your pay $50 a week or whatever. i treat all my guys like my family because we all know "when you are not with me you DO represent me" and id rather have guys i trust doing that


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

ce2two said:


> I quit 2 weeks later...Worked for a tract home ,spa/swimming pool contractor ....trimmed out 6-7 1000 sq.ft condo's a day ...no light fixtures ..7 dollars a hour .....took no breaks ...20 min. lunch no bonus:no::no:...was let go on christmas eve by phone ...he said i worked way too fast...I got a job in one day.....I was an athete, in the best of my life ..i was only 18 :laughing:


 sorry, but when they make me money.. im HAPPY to pass that good fortune along.


----------



## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> totally agree here..:thumbsup:. no doubt i put it on him. but my only complaint with him here you will notice that i said* he would work till 3:30,andcall it a day, *_personally i would stay till dark to get it done if i said i could. _you seem to have a certain knowledge of this so you would also understand that, often *we judge the quality of our leadmen by not only what they get done in a day,but also how hard they are willing to try and produce results.* my experienced guys WILL do these same houses in a day flat and let me be CLEAR: he is experienced but not as a leadman yet


Where I have it in bold *is his direction.* _This would have been a skilled approack to the situation, which is learned through doing the drill a few times. But he's too green to know the bull. So it intimidated him, and choked._ 

I understand the essence of the proper leads, (I kept 60 to 80 guys in material last year) but they need to be established. Part that sucks about a family deal. Lots of good JW's steer clear of a potential problem, or at least till that shop has a proven track record. Then if the shop is good, people beat a trail to your doorstep. 

Also, with 4000 miles from doorstep to door step, I have no idea how your AHJ or contractors, or even framing is like there, from my house here. Just sounds tight. Again, I'm 4000+ miles away though.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Sounds tight to me... You cant expect guys to go full bore all the time just to show you they are dedicated...I wouldnt want to work in a place that didnt alot for a coffee break and a proper lunch. Those poor guys must be miserable....I would never expect someone to work for free....Thats just abuse. Unions were created because of this mentality.
Sorry not picking on you....just seems a bit unreasonable to expect guys to work like they have some sort of stake in the company like you do..


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> Where I have it in bold *is his direction.* _This would have been a skilled approack to the situation, which is learned through doing the drill a few times. But he's too green to know the bull. So it intimidated him, and choked._
> 
> I understand the essence of the proper leads, (I kept 60 to 80 guys in material last year) but they need to be established. Part that sucks about a family deal. Lots of good JW's steer clear of a potential problem, or at least till that shop has a proven track record. Then if the shop is good, people beat a trail to your doorstep.
> 
> Also, with 4000 miles from doorstep to door step, I have no idea how your AHJ or contractors, or even framing is like there, from my house here. Just sounds tight. Again, I'm 4000+ miles away though.


and once again i have no arguement for sound reasoning!! he did just fine but does need alot of fine tuning


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> sorry, but when they make me money.. im HAPPY to pass that good fortune along.


Sure you are, just not in the form of a proper wage.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

As far as I know, the men are supposed to have a break every 4 hours....Coffee break and Lunch... Am I wrong....?


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> if you are looking for work id love to give ya a shot, as long as you are not one of the many "real" electrical companies i have seen come (AND GO) over the years


IMO , if he doesn't have a license, he is not qualified to pull wire, not to mention running an electrical layout on a residence. Furthermore, rushing an unqualified and unlicensed pre-leadman HELPER on a job without legal supervision is recipe for going out of business. What GOes around, comes around.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Sounds tight to me... You cant expect guys to go full bore all the time just to show you they are dedicated...I wouldnt want to work in a place that didnt alot for a coffee break and a proper lunch. Those poor guys must be miserable....I would never expect someone to work for free....Thats just abuse. Unions were created because of this mentality.
> Sorry not picking on you....just seems a bit unreasonable to expect guys to work like they have some sort of stake in the company like you do..


 i think we all have a stake in it. let me put it this way, i have had 1 man quit in 7 years.. and he came back about 3 or 4 mths. later. all my guys take a break whenever they want it,but they also know that i also work in the field a i know how much can get done in a day.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> As far as I know, the men are supposed to have a break every 4 hours....Coffee break and Lunch... Am I wrong....?


 YES.. florida requires a lunch (unpaid,which i do pay) and not to work more than 4 consecutive hrs without a 15 min brk


----------



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

I currently work for the goverment, passed the superintendent test looking at 7000 a month ....I've earned it outright ,did my home work ...Been with the goverment for 11 years ....:thumbup:I will be in charge of hiring and firing supervisors and the like...I hate people who do not give at least 60 -70 % effort ...:no: put in a good days work .....:thumbsup:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> IMO , if he doesn't have a license, he is not qualified to pull wire, not to mention running an electrical layout on a residence. Furthermore, rushing an unqualified and unlicensed pre-leadman HELPER on a job without legal supervision is recipe for going out of business. What GOes around, comes around.


 just curious; what EXACTLY does texas require for helpers on site??
do you have to have a master on site with them or journey man?


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> YES.. florida requires a lunch (unpaid,which i do pay)...


Wow, and extra 7 bucks. I hope it's not breaking the bank.


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> just curious; what EXACTLY does texas require for helpers on site??
> do you have to have a master on site with them or journey man?


Journeyman under supervision of a master.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> i think we all have a stake in it. let me put it this way, i have had 1 man quit in 7 years.. and he came back about 3 or 4 mths. later. all my guys take a break whenever they want it,but they also know that i also work in the field a i know how much can get done in a day.


 Hey what ever works for you, personally I as the owner of the company work 12 hours days sometimes for weeks on end but I would never expect someone to do it for free.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

ce2two said:


> I currently work for the goverment, passed the superintendent test looking at 7000 a month ....I've earned it outright ,did my home work ...Been with the goverment for 11 years ....:thumbup:I will be in charge of hiring and firing supervisors and the like...I hate people who do not give at least 60 -70 % effort ...:no: put in a good days work .....:thumbsup:


 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
good for you and it sounds like you EARNED IT.. i have gone through probably 300 guys and have kept 6. the ones that WANT to work. it seems the younger they are the less they want to excell. i expect "A's n B's out of my kids in school but when i expect that out of employees i am an instant a**hole.. go figure


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Hey what ever works for you, personally I as the owner of the company work 12 hours days sometimes for weeks on end but I would never expect someone to do it for free.


 Nor would I, all my guys make decent money. when i first started my business i called every EC around and "fake applied" over the phone. kinda got a feel for what the wage scale was, it was SUPER LOW to me too. but that was the going rate. i am still a little above average for my area


----------



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

rnr electric said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> good for you and it sounds like you EARNED IT.. i have gone through probably 300 guys and have kept 6. the ones that WANT to work. it seems the younger they are the less they want to excell. i expect "A's n B's out of my kids in school but when i expect that out of employees i am an instant a**hole.. go figure


 One last thing, i love to work ,work is fun...i HATE SIITING ON THE COUCH WATCHING THE DAY WITHER BY.. You only live once ....remember take time to stop and smell the roses.:thumbsup:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Journeyman under supervision of a master.


just to be clear(because i have no idea), a journeyman resi. electrician cannot be on the job without a master present


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> good for you and it sounds like you EARNED IT.. i have gone through probably 300 guys and have kept 6. the ones that WANT to work. it seems the younger they are the less they want to excell. i expect "A's n B's out of my kids in school but when i expect that out of employees i am an instant a**hole.. go figure


No, I don't think your a a**hole Mr elec, I just think that if this guy wants to be a leadman, he should first learn the theory, put in the time studying on his own and become efficient in the trade. Obviously you did this at some point in your career. Right? He is not ready.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

ce2two said:


> One last thing, i love to work ,work is fun...i HATE SIITING ON THE COUCH WATCHING THE DAY WITHER BY.. You only live once ....remember take time to stop and smell the roses.:thumbsup:


 you will find me one of 3 places,
working,hunting hogs,or with the kids and wife.
theres only 24 hrs a day and the kids deserve at least 1/3 of that.. schedule or not. i can sleep plenty when im gone


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> just to be clear(because i have no idea), a journeyman resi. electrician cannot be on the job without a master present


No. Journeyman has to be on the job and must be employed by the master electrical contractor doing the job. If it is different in your state, I apologize.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> No, I don't think your a a**hole Mr elec, I just think that if this guy wants to be a leadman, he should first learn the theory, put in the time studying on his own and become efficient in the trade. Obviously you did this at some point in your career. Right? He is not ready.


 first its RNR Electric, yes you are right but where did THEORY come into this. he has a very firm grasp on this,knowing elec theory has NOTHING to do with practical field application. i will, however agree with you that he needs to be more proficient in his application, and i also agree that this will come in time


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> No. Journeyman has to be on the job and must be employed by the master electrical contractor doing the job. If it is different in your state, I apologize.


 although i dont agree with this policy, with a masters liscense in florida, i can hire a monkey off the street and put him to work.. kinda weird, but their business test is supposed to weed this type of EC out. where im from i had to have a helpers liscense then a journeymans liscense and finally a masters


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> No. Journeyman has to be on the job and must be employed by the master electrical contractor doing the job. If it is different in your state, I apologize.


 do they test for journeymens lic. in texas? or is it accumulitive hours


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> knowing elec theory has NOTHING to do with practical field application.


Mostly in correct statement.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

What was the process like in getting you Florida license...? I looked into it a few years ago but it made my head hurt....


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

K2500 said:


> Sure you are, just not in the form of a proper wage.


 just out of PURE curiosity im going to find the wage scale in texas, i could be wrong but i bet its not alot different than where i am, dying to know what a helper or JM makes there:no:


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

Ok. If this guy is worth it to you, my suggestion is to send him out again and follow up on his progress. Give him a four to five hour head start and show up unannounced. I'll bet you will find out where the improfficiancy lies. At that point get him on track and lay out your expectations. Small investment - Big payoff.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> What was the process like in getting you Florida license...? I looked into it a few years ago but it made my head hurt....


 "THEY" say its 2nd hardest liscense to get in the country. i dont know but thats what everybody says. short answer; it sucks,elect. test,business and law test,assets etc. and once they are comfortable you can navigate all the paperwork,they issue you your lic. that simple.


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> do they test for journeymens lic. in texas? or is it accumulitive hours


It used to be SBCCI testing. Now the State gives the test after 12,000 hours.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Ok. If this guy is worth it to you, my suggestion is to send him out again and follow up on his progress. Give him a four to five hour head start and show up unannounced. I'll bet you will find out where the improfficiancy lies. At that point get him on track and lay out your expectations. Small investment - Big payoff.


 oh yeah:thumbup:.. as i have said he will be fine i just wanna see motivation


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> "THEY" say its 2nd hardest liscense to get in the country. i dont know but thats what everybody says. short answer; it sucks,elect. test,business and law test,assets etc. and once they are comfortable you can navigate all the paperwork,they issue you your lic. that simple.


 I think MIke holt has something to do with all the confusion...Why does Florida need to make it so complicated..?


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> just out of PURE curiosity im going to find the wage scale in texas, i could be wrong but i bet its not alot different than where i am, dying to know what a helper or JM makes there:no:


Well "K2", our wages are probably not a "HIGH" as yours, but we seem to be able to feed our families with it. Helpers range from $9 - $13. Journeyman - $16-$22.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> It used to be SBCCI testing. Now the State gives the test after 12,000 hours.


 and i think they should "unify" southern building code,and all geographical areas for that matter. it would make AHJ job alot easier,and print a clear,consisive roadmap for all trades to follow. allways been one of my biggest complaints


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

what is "legal" or "acceptable" in one part of the state, is not in the other. unify it and now we all know the rules, and can "functionally" play by them


----------



## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> what is "legal" or "acceptable" in one part of the state, is not in the other. unify it and now we all know the rules, and can "functionally" play by them


I agree.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I think MIke holt has something to do with all the confusion...Why does Florida need to make it so complicated..?


 dont kno.. 15 years ago you went to the tax collecters office and paid $25 (or so) and got an EC liscense.. then mid 90s they started testing for it and somebody said "lets make this as hard as possible". got my lic in 03 or 04.. once again a day late:jester:


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You act like a big time contractor. I am trying to figure you out. There is no way you are real. Nobody would work for somebody like that.
Are there really tract homes being built in Florida?
You expect double the work out of the guys you hire?


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> just out of PURE curiosity im going to find the wage scale in texas, i could be wrong but i bet its not alot different than where i am, dying to know what a helper or JM makes there:no:


Wage scale? Just call up some contractors and "fake apply" sight unseen, same way you did down there.

You've got alot of calling to do, though. We've got about 5 times the land area of Florida, and 10million more people.

Maybe Florida's economy took a big hit, but your wage determination method sucks. 
Just trying to keep up with the work, are you? Not a sign of a ****ty local economy. 
You've kept 6 out of 300 guys and you fired the other 294? How long have you been in business? Something doesn't jive.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Well "K2", our wages are probably not a "HIGH" as yours, but we seem to be able to feed our families with it. Helpers range from $9 - $13. Journeyman - $16-$22.


 if K2 and you are from the same state, why are his wages so much higher??. mine are about level across the board for my area.. But Texas is a big F****** place


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> what is "legal" or "acceptable" in one part of the state, is not in the other. unify it and now we all know the rules, and can "functionally" play by them


 Well I used to say the same thing...but now I can totally understand the regionallity of it.... We dont get the storms that you guys get in Fla every hurrican season so im sure they want the ECs down there to understand concret footings better, or like if your an EC in the desert towns in AZ and Nevada grounding must be a little more difficult to get under 25 ohms. I can see how its annoying when the county next to you has a different requirement.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

K2500 said:


> Wage scale? Just call up some contractors and "fake apply" sight unseen, same way you did down there.
> 
> You've got alot of calling to do, though. We've got about 5 times the land area of Florida, and 10million more people.
> 
> ...


 well if you are looking for a resume..
i was a partner in a rather lage corp. from 96 till 01. i sold my end went to work for another EC business where i ran a very successful crew,got my liscense in late 03 or 04, ( right when sh** hit the fan) and been struggling ever since, just like everybody else. you??


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Well I used to say the same thing...but now I can totally understand the regionallity of it.... We dont get the storms that you guys get in Fla every hurrican season so im sure they want the ECs down there to understand concret footings better, or like if your an EC in the desert towns in AZ and Nevada grounding must be a little more difficult to get under 25 ohms. I can see how its annoying when the county next to you has a different requirement.


 yes and myself coming from Maine, thats why i stated "geographical areas". we do not have the same hardships you have there,nor do you have the same as we do


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> well if you are looking for a resume..


What part of my post did you assume was a resume request....


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Well I used to say the same thing...but now I can totally understand the regionallity of it.... We dont get the storms that you guys get in Fla every hurrican season so im sure they want the ECs down there to understand concret footings better, or like if your an EC in the desert towns in AZ and Nevada grounding must be a little more difficult to get under 25 ohms. I can see how its annoying when the county next to you has a different requirement.


 one thing i have learned is that that alll goegraphical areas will not tolerate the same applications,


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

K2500 said:


> What part of my post did you assume was a resume request....


 im sorry, but you asked how long i have been in business, and that something didnt jive. BTW the 300 number was a number i pulled out of my a**, not a real number. Sorry,it was more figureative than anything, what i meant was i have gone through alot of guys and only kept a small handfull.. the ones that wanted to work


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> if K2 and you are from the same state, why are his wages so much higher??. mine are about level across the board for my area.. But Texas is a big F****** place


He has no idea what I make, and neither do you. My wages are high for open shop in my area, but that doesn't matter. You just needed an argument for varying wages across a distance.

Your wage determination methods still suck, and apparently occurred five or six years ago.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

K2500 said:


> He has no idea what I make, and neither do you. My wages are high for open shop in my area, but that doesn't matter. You just needed an argument for varying wages across a distance.
> 
> Your wage determination methods still suck, and apparently occurred five or six years ago.


 i have been nothing but cordial to you and am NOT looking for an argument,but rather allways looking for advice,you chimed in about how my wage determination methods "suck"
i would ask how do you do it??,you seem very sensitive in this regard..
sit at home much?:whistling2:


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> i have been nothing but cordial to you and am NOT looking for an argument,but rather allways looking for advice,you chimed in about how my wage determination methods "suck"
> i would ask how do you do it??,you seem very sensitive in this regard..
> sit at home much?:whistling2:


I sit at home every day after work. Even the long days. I work long days when necessary because my employer actually pays my OT.

Sensitive huh, nice redirect. 

How would I do it? I wouldn't. If I did I would draw base numbers from local union scale, and make qualification judgements on an individual basis. Then pay accordingly.
Worse comes to worse, I would pull a number out of my ass before I would just call around and get lied to more often than I find comfortable.


----------



## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

*Florida sucks*

mr electric has stated

$12 hr as a helper and will make 13 or 14 when he is comfy as a lead man. i am from up north and i know this is not even close to the payscale up there,but here that is fair wages, well within the industry standards here

REST MY CASE ! FLORIDA SUCKS !

I believe i stated " better off tending bar " in that old post.


Donald " Outstanding Citizen of the Conch Republic "


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You know , I understand that nobody is going to tell their rates. Fine. In NE it's $17 to $26.
What I don't understand is how you can send a helper out with a helper? Is there no permitting or licensing requirements?
Plus all I hear about FL is "how many empty homes there are" and how much assistant FL needs.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You act like a big time contractor. I am trying to figure you out. There is no way you are real. Nobody would work for somebody like that.
> Are there really tract homes being built in Florida?
> You expect double the work out of the guys you hire?


 yes some, although this is a generic name for the same modest home being built over and over.TRUST ME i am NOT big time,nor do i have any such aspirations.. all i ask is that everybody that i employ put forth the same effort that i do,let me be very clear on this; my employees feed my family and i feel that they work very hard for me,in return i feed their families and i work very hard for them.I am a firm believer that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link,i explain my expectations and downfalls ( im very forgetful) upfront.and it seems to work being honest. in honesty theres not much to figure out


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

donaldelectrician said:


> mr electric has stated
> 
> $12 hr as a helper and will make 13 or 14 when he is comfy as a lead man. i am from up north and i know this is not even close to the payscale up there,but here that is fair wages, well within the industry standards here
> 
> ...


 i agree here also.. but i cannot set the wage scale


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You know , I understand that nobody is going to tell their rates. Fine. In NE it's $17 to $26.
> What I don't understand is how you can send a helper out with a helper? Is there no permitting or licensing requirements?
> Plus all I hear about FL is "how many empty homes there are" and how much assistant FL needs.


 they still have stupidass investors wanting to build.. the high dollar neighborhoods are booming right now,but trac homes are not doing well. Eglin AFB are the only ones buying right now as far as trac homes go.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You know , I understand that nobody is going to tell their rates. Fine. In NE it's $17 to $26.
> What I don't understand is how you can send a helper out with a helper? Is there no permitting or licensing requirements?
> Plus all I hear about FL is "how many empty homes there are" and how much assistant FL needs.


 also i stated clearly tha this kid is not "helper" material.. he has all the skills of any JM i have ever known, just needs to get motivated, now you hit me with wages.. i could pay the same as they do up north but where would that get me... bankrupt!! i dont set the wage scale, i only follow it as every EC i have ever known does.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

donaldelectrician said:


> mr electric has stated
> 
> $12 hr as a helper and will make 13 or 14 when he is comfy as a lead man. i am from up north and i know this is not even close to the payscale up there,but here that is fair wages, well within the industry standards here
> 
> ...


 allthough i agree with you, you have contradicted yourself (right?) assuming cali. has same wage scale


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> You know , I understand that nobody is going to tell their rates. Fine. In NE it's $17 to $26.
> What I don't understand is how you can send a helper out with a helper? Is there no permitting or licensing requirements?
> Plus all I hear about FL is "how many empty homes there are" and how much assistant FL needs.


 ill tell anything you wanna know about my rates


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

TO THOSE THIS DONT APPLY,PLEASE DISREGARD,
but to everybody else that seems to have a "firm grasp" on how business runs let me add this.
to all those that know how it great it is to be the boss, it is because you have not been there. you have not had a small fortune of your money invested and still got to make payroll,material bills and general overhead costs. nor have you had to come up with a couple grand to put tires on your trucks. i would further invite you to try to bid against a handy man who can do it for half your price and you cannot beat him if you did it at cost.. there are alot of people out there that think they could do it better but in reality cant even get a liscense,write a legible contract,or even put forth the small amount of effor that it takes to start their own business,but rather offer ingnorant remarks to those of us that have the fortitude to do so,do us all a favor and do this.. get a liscense, compete fairly with us,and stop whining about your coffee break and get to work. the leaders will allways lead and the followers will allways bitch about how they got the shaft


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Well "K2", our wages are probably not a "HIGH" as yours, but we seem to be able to feed our families with it. Helpers range from $9 - $13. Journeyman - $16-$22.



That is good money in 1985..Why even bother being an Electrician..


You could get a lawn mower and make much more no school or tests required..


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That is good money in 1985..Why even bother being an Electrician..
> 
> 
> You could get a lawn mower and make much more no school or tests required..


 once again.. i agree but i dont set the wage scale


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That is good money in 1985..Why even bother being an Electrician..
> 
> 
> You could get a lawn mower and make much more no school or tests required..


 i was a hunting guide in mid 80's and made twice this much


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> once again.. i agree but i dont set the wage scale


 All you guys who are EC's down there set the wage scale don't kid your self 
As long as states like yours think that Electrical work is Unskilled labor then the wages will be at the bottom,,

If an Electrician can only make the same as a short order cook then there is no reason to buy all these tools and code books and all the other crap when you can make the same money doing anything else..

IMO an Electrician is a professional trade and should yield a professional wage 

What i mean is he should be able to own his own home support a family and save for retirment.

Up here i would have real trouble finding a good helper for $22 an hour,,,Nevermind a journeyman..:laughing:


BTW i am not a union guy but we will save that for another discussion..:laughing:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> TO THOSE THIS DONT APPLY,PLEASE DISREGARD,
> but to everybody else that seems to have a "firm grasp" on how business runs let me add this.
> to all those that know how it great it is to be the boss, it is because you have not been there. you have not had a small fortune of your money invested and still got to make payroll,material bills and general overhead costs. nor have you had to come up with a couple grand to put tires on your trucks. i would further invite you to try to bid against a handy man who can do it for half your price and you cannot beat him if you did it at cost.. there are alot of people out there that think they could do it better but in reality cant even get a liscense,write a legible contract,or even put forth the small amount of effor that it takes to start their own business,but rather offer ingnorant remarks to those of us that have the fortitude to do so,do us all a favor and do this.. get a liscense, compete fairly with us,and stop whining about your coffee break and get to work. the leaders will allways lead and the followers will allways bitch about how they got the shaft


 

I own my own business. That isn't the point. $12-$14 an hour is not enough to live on with any level of comfort, even for a single person. Do I have employees? hell no.


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> knowing elec theory has NOTHING to do with practical field application


Is this guy serious?


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

HugoStiglitz said:


> Is this guy serious?


There are others here with the same idea, as wrong as I believe it is. 

That said, I believe he is mighty serious about his trolling.


----------



## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Just curious but did this helper/leadsman go through a state approved apprenticeship that your company paid for? Or was it all just on the job training?


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Hey it is what it is....I dont see the point in getting angry at him.....When I was in FLA one year I was talking with an electrician that was setting up a generator for a festival and I asked him what his boss charges per hour for one guy and he told me 50 bucks.....So it is what it is.....
I cant think of many jobs where you make 20 dollars an hour in your first year. That includes college folk....
If your a first year helper I think its a little unrealistic to think our job should be able to support you and your family...Ist year helpers are usually younger people 18- 20. The going rate around here for helpers is anywhere from 10- 18 on the high end......If im not mistaken most new teachers make anywhere from 22- 28 thousand in their first few years, same goes for cops...
Why should the OP pay his guys more than the going rate for his area.....?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Apprentices should not be paid at all. When you go to school to learn a trade or profession, you don't get "paid". 

The system of apprenticeship first developed in the later Middle Ages and came to be supervised by craft guilds and town governments. A master craftsman was entitled to employ young people as an inexpensive form of labor *in exchange for providing food, lodging and formal training in the craft*.


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

backstay said:


> Apprentices should not be paid at all. When you go to school to learn a trade or profession, you don't get "paid".
> 
> The system of apprenticeship first developed in the later Middle Ages and came to be supervised by craft guilds and town governments. A master craftsman was entitled to employ young people as an inexpensive form of labor in exchange for providing food, lodging and formal training in the craft.


They also ****t in pots and 30 was old.


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

backstay said:


> Apprentices should not be paid at all. When you go to school to learn a trade or profession, you don't get "paid".
> 
> The system of apprenticeship first developed in the later Middle Ages and came to be supervised by craft guilds and town governments. A master craftsman was entitled to employ young people as an inexpensive form of labor in exchange for providing food, lodging and formal training in the craft.


Bull****. The trade would be **** if this were the case, no one would be able to afford to learn it. I think you've been hanging out with mr electric too much.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HugoStiglitz said:


> Is this guy serious?


 hugo.. im sorry. that was probably the dumbest comment ive ever said.
after reviewing (and putting a little more thought into it),i have to agree with you here,as we all know when you put on a tool belt the electrical thoery begins,it applies to all facets of the trade and should never be disregarded.
the point that i was trying to make was the helpers knowledge of theory was quite sound and that he just didnt seem very motivated


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HugoStiglitz said:


> Bull****. The trade would be **** if this were the case, no one would be able to afford to learn it. I think you've been hanging out with mr electric too much.


 no, i think they should be paid also. I was


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> hugo.. im sorry. that was probably the dumbest comment ive ever said.
> after reviewing (and putting a little more thought into it),i have to agree with you here,as we all know when you put on a tool belt the electrical thoery begins,it applies to all facets of the trade and should never be disregarded.
> the point that i was trying to make was the helpers knowledge of theory was quite sound and that he just didnt seem very motivated


 also that theory doesnt apply when drilling holes,nailing boxes etc.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

So some guy in a suit teaching you about French art and you pay him, but a master electrician teaching his experiance and he should pay you?


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> hugo.. im sorry. that was probably the dumbest comment ive ever said.
> after reviewing (and putting a little more thought into it),i have to agree with you here,as we all know when you put on a tool belt the electrical thoery begins,it applies to all facets of the trade and should never be disregarded.
> the point that i was trying to make was the helpers knowledge of theory was quite sound and that he just didnt seem very motivated


I know what your saying. When theory is applied in the workplace it becomes more second nature and less 'classroomish', if you know what I'm saying. The term 'electrical theory' doesn't even cross your mind.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HugoStiglitz said:


> I know what your saying. When theory is applied in the workplace it becomes more second nature and less 'classroomish', if you know what I'm saying. The term 'electrical theory' doesn't even cross your mind.


 yes exactly, in the field it seems like you dont even realize that at one point "you didnt know that" because it is second nature


----------



## HugoStiglitz (Apr 11, 2011)

backstay said:


> So some guy in a suit teaching you about French art and you pay him, but a master electrician teaching his experiance and he should pay you?


I highly doubt the person teaching you is the same person paying you but stranger things have happened. Not many apprentices would put up with the **** work they have to do their first couple years without getting paid, in my opinion, rightfully so. It's the way it's been for years, and seems to be working pretty damn good, so why change it now?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

backstay said:


> So some guy in a suit teaching you about French art and you pay him, but a master electrician teaching his experiance and he should pay you?


 if a man works for you as a helper,jm,or master and you recieve financial gain from it, i feel he should also be compensated


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Hey it is what it is....I dont see the point in getting angry at him.....When I was in FLA one year I was talking with an electrician that was setting up a generator for a festival and I asked him what his boss charges per hour for one guy and he told me 50 bucks.....So it is what it is.....
> I cant think of many jobs where you make 20 dollars an hour in your first year. That includes college folk....
> If your a first year helper I think its a little unrealistic to think our job should be able to support you and your family...Ist year helpers are usually younger people 18- 20. The going rate around here for helpers is anywhere from 10- 18 on the high end......If im not mistaken most new teachers make anywhere from 22- 28 thousand in their first few years, same goes for cops...
> Why should the OP pay his guys more than the going rate for his area.....?


 This absolutely applies here, when my nephew(the new leadman) got his taxes done this year,
the gal doing them commented that he was making great money for his age and the area.. his words not mine


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> All you guys who are EC's down there set the wage scale don't kid your self
> As long as states like yours think that Electrical work is Unskilled labor then the wages will be at the bottom,,
> 
> If an Electrician can only make the same as a short order cook then there is no reason to buy all these tools and code books and all the other crap when you can make the same money doing anything else..
> ...


 if you read earlier posts you will see i am from maine, just up the street (so to speak), so i agree with the numbers that you are talking about,but here it is just not the same.. I left maine making $17hr as a journey man and came to florida and started a $7 in 1998. quickly moved up but never made more than $15 hr until i started on my own


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

dawgs said:


> Just curious but did this helper/leadsman go through a state approved apprenticeship that your company paid for? Or was it all just on the job training?


 all OJT..


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Alot of those apprencie programs are BS anyway..YOu see tons of guys in there with glazed looks in their eyes. The ones that really want to learn get more out of it than the ones that are there just going through the motions... 
Its like anything in life, you get out of it what you want to... Nothing beats OJT imo...My guy loves to test me....he asks me about transformer losses, inductive reactance...I kind of laugh to myself that they are even bothering teaching this stuff to 1st and 2nd year guys....Whats the point...? they wont remember any of it any way....


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Whats the point...? they wont remember any of it any way....


I just throw it out there, even if they don't understand it. I think it helps to make things click latter on.


----------



## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> I own my own business. That isn't the point. $12-$14 an hour is not enough to live on with any level of comfort, even for a single person. Do I have employees? hell no.


I'm curious, because of how licensing is in Illinois what are the average wages for an electrician like in your state? I suspect they're higher simply because of geography and climate, but that's just a guess.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> I'd like to say that I asked the new guy at work who had been doing tract housing how long they were taking. He said about 6 hours without services or basement finishes. So sorry I laid into you about the time.


Clarified this today and would like to renege on my apology. He says that 6 hours was with a 5 or 6 person crew. Don't know why I didn't ask that before.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> Clarified this today and would like to renege on my apology. He says that 6 hours was with a 5 or 6 person crew. Don't know why I didn't ask that before.


I dont know what they are calling trac houses exactly.
this i will say with utmost certainty: 2 men will do a 1500-1750 sq ft "trac home" in about 1.5 days work (12hrs or so). this is drilled,boxed,wired,cutin,studguard,nailplate,foamed and gone.this is phone and cable tv also


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

It's a tracT house. And if it takes 12 hours then what are you mad for? You said the kid had 3 days to do 2 houses. But you also said they were only 6.5 hour days. By your 12 hour calc there is no way he could do them in the time allotted.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> sorry i dont get what you mean by this?, we are as professional as they come. and my lowest paid guy knows how to spell "professional"



Don't mind Harry....he's just a goober. I mean who the hell would put "little dog electric" in their profile quote? Hahahahaha what a douche.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> 2 Tract houses @ 1750 each. Assume 3 bedroom, 2 bath, with a 200amp service each. Low voltage consists of Doorbell, 3 home runs of CATV and 3 runs of Cat5 to the service, and garage door opener. Stop by parts house for will call order each day for 2 days.
> You allowed 48 man-hours for the rough in. Then I hear that 1.5 x 2 (3 total) x 3 days deduction for driving. So the kid has 39 man-hours to do 3500 square feet? That’s BS. Especially a green lead.
> You have him flying (ain’t going to happen)!
> Fast would be at about 47 hours (2 units mirrored) with a well laid out plan – ready to fly.
> ...


A long time ago I wired a house which seems about the same size (split level, 3 bedrooms on top floor, 1 bedroom on lower level, 3 baths, electric water heater, electric stove, electric heat, an outdoor unit, 200 amp service) in a single day by myself. I marked it out, boxed it out, drilled it out, pulled all wire, tied in all wire, built the service, tied in the service, pulled the TV's, telephone's, and chime wire, kickplated, and swept the house up. Oh and mounted the siding blocks on the outside. 

I did this all by my lonesome in one long (14 hour ) day. But I had repetition on my side. I didn't have to think about much. These were tract homes and I had wired plenty of them already so I knew exactly on which studs to make my marks and how the circuits went.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> It's a tracT house. And if it takes 12 hours then what are you mad for? You said the kid had 3 days to do 2 houses. But you also said they were only 6.5 hour days. By your 12 hour calc there is no way he could do them in the time allotted.


 aggreed, please read the whole post." went back saturday, got back at 1 oclock".. also, i am by no means "mad", just seems to me if i got out of bed sat. morning, accrued OT for helper and myself, cost $40 in gas, the job would be done, would you agree?


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> aggreed, please read the whole post." went back saturday, got back at 1 oclock".. also, i am by no means "mad", just seems to me if i got out of bed sat. morning, accrued OT for helper and myself, cost $40 in gas, the job would be done, would you agree?


I did read the whole post. What time did he start saturday? Just him or him and a helper?
6.5 hours per day means he needs just shy of two days per house. You gave him 3 days for 2 houses. And then you got mad at him for not completing something in less time than you usually allow for.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> Don't mind Harry....he's just a goober. I mean who the hell would put "little dog electric" in their profile quote? Hahahahaha what a douche.


steelersman oh really **** head tell me more ..:thumbsup:


Btw you are the most useless poster on hear you have nothing to show exchept jumping other posters case ..

steelersman = spelling cop

steelersman how's sitting on your fat *** collecting Unemployment because your not man enough to to take care of your self,,,P****y.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

If I got out of bed on saturday it sure as hell wouldn't be to go wire some stupid tract house for a boss who doesn't want to give me the same amount of time that everybody else gets to wire a house. And as far as the 40 dollars in gas goes, you bid the job man. I bet you aren't even paying for the drive time there or back.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> steelersman oh really **** head tell me more ..:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Btw you are the most useless poster on hear you have nothing to show exchept jumping other posters case ..
> ...


I can't tell if you guys are friends or not.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

steelersman said:


> A long time ago I wired a house which seems about the same size (split level, 3 bedrooms on top floor, 1 bedroom on lower level, 3 baths, electric water heater, electric stove, electric heat, an outdoor unit, 200 amp service) in a single day by myself. I marked it out, boxed it out, drilled it out, pulled all wire, tied in all wire, built the service, tied in the service, pulled the TV's, telephone's, and chime wire, kickplated, and swept the house up. Oh and mounted the siding blocks on the outside.
> 
> I did this all by my lonesome in one long (14 hour ) day. But I had repetition on my side. I didn't have to think about much. These were tract homes and I had wired plenty of them already so I knew exactly on which studs to make my marks and how the circuits went.


 :laughing:

You could not wire a single pole switch ...:laughing:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

steelersman said:


> A long time ago I wired a house which seems about the same size (split level, 3 bedrooms on top floor, 1 bedroom on lower level, 3 baths, electric water heater, electric stove, electric heat, an outdoor unit, 200 amp service) in a single day by myself. I marked it out, boxed it out, drilled it out, pulled all wire, tied in all wire, built the service, tied in the service, pulled the TV's, telephone's, and chime wire, kickplated, and swept the house up. Oh and mounted the siding blocks on the outside.
> 
> I did this all by my lonesome in one long (14 hour ) day. But I had repetition on my side. I didn't have to think about much. These were tract homes and I had wired plenty of them already so I knew exactly on which studs to make my marks and how the circuits went.


 yes thats exactly my point.. after 20 or so a year you can allmost lay these out without blueprints.. should go pretty quick.this kid(remember he is my nephew) did a fine job and worked hard for me.. my point of this post is that not every boss is your uncle and at some point you will have to step up and define scope of work,put the help you have at the most valuable spot, pull the trigger and get the job done within the allotted time.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I can't tell if you guys are friends or not.


 
Not that i Know of but he wants to get in my face lets go steelersman..


Your a big man....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I did read the whole post. What time did he start saturday? Just him or him and a helper?
> 6.5 hours per day means he needs just shy of two days per house. You gave him 3 days for 2 houses. And then you got mad at him for not completing something in less time than you usually allow for.


 first off, why would you start earlier or later on saturday.. 7:00-3:30 when you work (or until finish whichever comes first). second i have never got mad.. please understand this.. my argument has allways been this, IF I SAY I CAN DO IT, THEN I WILL DO IT. i will not come home at 1 o'clock on saturday or any other day for that matter


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> IF I SAY I CAN DO IT, THEN I WILL DO IT.


So go do it. Take the helper he had and go do two. Maybe you're getting out of touch.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

i want to make this perfectly clear.. for those who have not read the whole post.
This kid did just fine, but had alot of little issues that we must work through before he moves to the "custom home market", which if you read this post is his next stop..
He has to program himself to meet deadlines set before him, and take the innititave work through problems that we all face in the field application of our jobs. nothing more.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I read the whole thing. I think the kid is fine and you have some issues. Do you pay drive time or not?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> So go do it. Take the helper he had and go do two. Maybe you're getting out of touch.


 I have done these same houses, in the same allotted time that i have set for him. im not outta touch at all, it can be done with realitive ease.


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I read the whole thing. I think the kid is fine and you have some issues. Do you pay drive time or not?


 i pay from the time you leave my shop


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> I have done these same houses, in the same allotted time that i have set for him. im not outta touch at all, it can be done with realitive ease.


You said 12 hours. And then you expected him done in 9.75 hours.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> i pay from the time you leave my shop


And back to the shop?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> I read the whole thing. I think the kid is fine and you have some issues. Do you pay drive time or not?


 if you had read the whole post, then you have read time and time that i have posted that, he has done just fine. not bad for his first time out and he will come around, just needs to grasp the concept that we are ALL here to make money


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> You said 12 hours. And then you expected him done in 9.75 hours.


That's exactly what he said.

If I drew a picture of a weasel with a trolls head, what would you call it?


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> if you had read the whole post, then you have read time and time that i have posted that, he has done just fine. not bad for his first time out and he will come around, just needs to grasp the concept that we are ALL here to make money


If he's doing fine why the hell are you talking about him on a forum for then?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> And back to the shop?


 no, in fairness i only pay one way


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> If he's doing fine why the hell are you talking about him on a forum for then?


 the OP was before he finished and i didnt have alot of faith in him..(at that point). he was about a day behind,but he pulled through and did O.K., not great but good, and i can deal with this. but we have spoke about, figuring material, timelines, and scheduling since then and he seems to be up for it. So im gonna let him hammer down and see how he does!


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Is he required to come back to the shop at night?


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> You said 12 hours. And then you expected him done in 9.75 hours.


 no, 12 man hrs per house.. 24 hrs for two. i allotted 32 (3 days) for both houses


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

MF Dagger said:


> Is he required to come back to the shop at night?


 no, as im usually not here (baseball):thumbup:.. only drop van off or pick up his truck. but he has green light to take van home if he wants


----------



## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm seeing 45 to 47hrs if he's really good...at the site


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> steelersman = spelling cop


Since when have I been a spelling cop?



HARRY304E said:


> steelersman how's sitting on your fat *** collecting Unemployment because your not man enough to to take care of your self,,,P****y.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


If you wanna insult me that's fine, but at least come up with some that are truthful. I'm not fat, and I'm also not collecting unemployment. :thumbsup:


----------



## hooch (Sep 18, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> although i dont agree with this policy, with a masters liscense in florida, i can hire a monkey off the street and put him to work.. kinda weird, but their business test is supposed to weed this type of EC out. where im from i had to have a helpers liscense then a journeymans liscense and finally a masters


a helper's liscense? what the hell is that?and not just the spelling:blink:


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> There is no money in them because you guys work like total fools instead of professinals.


Spoken like a true professinal.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

jza said:


> Spoken like a true professinal.



Hahahahaha that's Harry for you.....:laughing:


----------



## john120/240 (May 28, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> no, in fairness i only pay one way


I hope you are kidding right ? If he is driving the company van 100 miles

one way how is he not on the clock ? If I'm not on the clock stop at the 

local strip club & have a few beers.


----------

