# Get Ready for the 2014 NEC



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Dishwashers-- hard wired or not-- GFCI required

6' of sinks anywhere, including kitchens, gfci required- this may mean refrig, disposal, instant hots and trash compactors...

Kitchens & Laundry areas-- AFCI

Laundry Areas-- Gfci

That is just a few.....


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dishwashers-- hard wired or not-- GFCI required
> 
> 6' of sinks anywhere, including kitchens, gfci required- this may mean refrig, disposal, instant hots and trash compactors...
> 
> ...



The whole kitchen AFCI protected?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> The whole kitchen AFCI protected?


Whoa! Im OUT!!!


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Somebody needs to just create an afci main breaker panel.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Can we just install a GFCI 200 amp main breaker panel and call it a day?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...the NEC is getting more like Washington DC with each code cycle. 

How much money do they except from manufactures with products directly tied to code changes?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

So who gets sued when the HO goes on vacation for (3) weeks and the fridge GFI or AFCI trips....

I see nothing but headaches with these code changes.... :no::no:

It would be nice if the CMP posted some kind of study or real world reason for making these changes...

Living in a "theory" world is not where I want to be when common sense still means something....


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## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

Ok, so I see a panel full of arc faults, and in the kitchen a couple or three dead-face GFCI's.

Cutler Hammer also made/makes(?) a GFI/AFI breaker, a BR120AFGF.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

b4t said:


> ......it would be nice if the cmp were real electricians.....


fify


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

FlatRateGator said:


> Ok, so I see a panel full of arc faults, and in the kitchen a couple or three dead-face GFCI's.
> 
> Cutler Hammer also made/makes(?) a GFI/AFI breaker, a BR120AFGF.


That combo breaker wasn't a combo breaker.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dennis, wasn't it you or someone else here that actually proposed that within-6'-of-all-sinks rule?

B4T, you can read up on the substantiation for a lot of these. They post it online. Sometimes you see the sense in it afterwards, but sometimes not.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The substantiation of all proposals are in the ROP.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Any hint toward the application of AFCI's to commercial installations?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The substantiation of all proposals are in the ROP.


What is a ROP and where can I find it???


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

B4T said:


> What is a ROP and where can I find it???


it's in your garage and there's a noose at one end


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

mdfriday said:


> Somebody needs to just create an afci main breaker panel.


They will now , lol !


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

wildleg said:


> it's in your garage and there's a noose at one end


Post of the year. :laughing: :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So who gets sued when the HO goes on vacation for (3) weeks and the fridge GFI or AFCI trips....


Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:

Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> Any hint toward the application of AFCI's to commercial installations?


I'm going the way of shockdoc when that chit happens


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> I'm going the way of shockdoc when that chit happens


I would not worry about it seeing as you are using all metal wiring methods.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.


Commercial kitchen owners don't go on vacation for weeks at a clip...

That makes a HO a car of a different color..


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.


I'm sure he meant just AFCIs


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.



Um......... how many commercial kitchens get shut down for 3 weeks and no one ever comes in at all? :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> What is a ROP and where can I find it???


Report On Proposals.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Commercial kitchen owners don't go on vacation for weeks at a clip...
> 
> That makes a HO a car of a different color..


The commercial kitchens also have to deal with the board of health and it only takes a few hours above temp to result in throwing the food out.




480sparky said:


> Um......... how many commercial kitchens get shut down for 3 weeks and no one ever comes in at all? :whistling2:


Banquet halls, camps, churches ....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

LightsOn81 said:


> I'm sure he meant just AFCIs


He said both.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> ..........Banquet halls, camps, churches ....


......which usually will remove all the spoilable food.

Oh, wait..... you're referring to the Nutjobs out East. Never mind. We do things a bit smarter 'round these parts.

Carry on.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dishwashers-- hard wired or not-- GFCI required


 
Whats the reasoning behind that one?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The commercial kitchens also have to deal with the board of health and it only takes a few hours above temp to result in throwing the food out.
> 
> Banquet halls, camps, churches ....


God doesnt need afci protection in his churches


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Commercial kitchen owners don't go on vacation for weeks at a clip...
> 
> That makes a HO a car of a different color..





480sparky said:


> Um......... how many commercial kitchens get shut down for 3 weeks and no one ever comes in at all? :whistling2:



You guys are leaving food in the fridge for weeks then eating it?


Unless its ketchup or some other condiment ~ it's getting tossed out.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Cletis said:


> God doesnt need afci protection in his churches


tru dat, god be frien folks hisself


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is no real technical need for any hardwired equipment to have GFCI protection. The EGC provides the required protection. 

The original GFCI rules were all for cord and plug connected equipment where is it more likely that the EGC will be compromised that it is for hard wired equipment.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> There is no real technical need for any hardwired equipment to have GFCI protection. The EGC provides the required protection.
> 
> The original GFCI rules were all for cord and plug connected equipment where is it more likely that the EGC will be compromised that it is for hard wired equipment.


Or be exposed to water and people. I still dont get it.

Im not on any code making panel but without a doubt Im betting some members there are being paid lavishly by circuit breaker manufactures. And Eaton company seems to come up a little to often in the propsals and code makeing panel:whistling2:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Big John said:


> Dennis, wasn't it you or someone else here that actually proposed that within-6'-of-all-sinks rule?


None of my proposals really made it more stringent. Some clarified the code but I had nothing to do with the sink rule.

Remember that the NEC also has another change that will allow 50' of 14/2 nm and 70' 12/2 nm to be run without break to the first outlet and an afci receptacle can be used there rather than in the panel. There are some if's to that that I don't quite understand yet.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I can see a dishwasher being gfi especially with the splices being so close to the floor.Water,splice,and bare foot I always found a troubling mix. Sump pump on the other-hand shouldn't be gfi because it prevents basements from flooding.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> I can see a dishwasher being gfi especially with the splices being so close to the floor.Water,splice,and bare foot I always found a troubling mix. Sump pump on the other-hand shouldn't be gfi because it prevents basements from flooding.


So if splices _near _the floor are unsafe, what about splices *in* the floor?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So if splices near the floor are unsafe, what about splices in the floor?


There isn't water lines like a dishwasher.and it's pretty much tightly sealed.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> So if splices _near _the floor are unsafe, what about splices *in* the floor?


That should be an in use cover...of course...:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> There isn't water lines like a dishwasher.and it's pretty much tightly sealed.


Oh. So splices _near water_ are dangerous. Like splices in you electric water heater, clothes washer, garbage disposal, sump pump, well, refrigerator ice maker, hot tub, whirlpool...........


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh. So splices near water are dangerous. Like splices in you electric water heater, clothes washer, garbage disposal, sump pump, well, refrigerator ice maker, hot tub, whirlpool...........


No splices near the floor that might be in contact with water is dangerous.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> No splices near the floor that might be in contact with water is dangerous.


So....... splices NOT near the floor that might be in contact with water is safe. Gotcha. :thumbsup:

How near the floor must this splice that might be in contact with water be to be dangerous?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So....... splices NOT near the floor that might be in contact with water is safe. Gotcha. :thumbsup:


Yea. I guess you can say SAFER.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Yea. I guess you can say SAFER.



So if I suspend my dishwasher from the ceiling...............


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> No splices near the floor that might be in contact with water is dangerous.



Oh, wait. My floor is wood. Can I get shocked by a wood floor? What about linoleum? Carpet?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh, wait. My floor is wood. Can I get shocked by a wood floor? What about linoleum? Carpet?


Well if the dishwasher spills over and there is a puddle of water then yea you can get shocked. Suspending your dishwasher would be the way to go.lol


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Well if the dishwasher spills over and there is a puddle of water then yea you can get shocked. Suspending your dishwasher would be the way to go.lol



So electricity goes through me, and then into the water, and then to........ um............. then to.................. uh........................ help me out here.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So electricity goes through me, and then into the water, and then to........ um............. then to.................. uh........................ help me out here.


Travels through the water then to you and then you die.the end


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Travels through the water then to you and then you die.the end


Oh... so the electricity comes out of the water! So all these breakers and wires I'm installing is just a scam to take my customer's money.......


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh... so the electricity comes out of the water! So all these breakers and wires I'm installing is just a scam to take my customer's money.......


Yea. I want to propose that we need to put grounding mesh underneath the dishwasher and kitchen tiles.2017 nec all those breakers don't mean anything according to the manufacturers.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So if splices _near _the floor are unsafe, what about splices *in* the floor?





480sparky said:


> Oh. So splices _near water_ are dangerous. Like splices in you electric water heater, clothes washer, garbage disposal, sump pump, well, refrigerator ice maker, hot tub, whirlpool...........





480sparky said:


> So if I suspend my dishwasher from the ceiling...............





480sparky said:


> Oh, wait. My floor is wood. Can I get shocked by a wood floor? What about linoleum? Carpet?





480sparky said:


> Oh... so the electricity comes out of the water! So all these breakers and wires I'm installing is just a scam to take my customer's money.......


Youre throwing fastballs at a guy with no catchers mitt.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Yea. I want to propose that we need to put grounding mesh underneath the dishwasher and kitchen tiles.2017 nec all those breakers don't mean anything according to the manufacturers.



I'm gonna just cut to the quick and write a proposal banning water from the face of the planet. I never knew how dangerous water was. 












I've always wondered how these things worked. Imagine that.... they just suck the electricity right out of the lake.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Just gfi the damn dishwasher and you will live 480.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh... so the electricity comes out of the water! So all these breakers and wires I'm installing is just a scam to take my customer's money.......


 
Ever heard of gradient potential across the water? 

Fill a porcelain sink up with water, preferably salt water, put two 1 inch electrodes at each end running at 120. Now take a High impedance volt meter. One prob to the center of the sink the other to a good ground source...

What happens?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Ever heard of gradient potential across the water?
> 
> Fill a porcelain sink up with water, preferably salt water, put two 1 inch electrodes at each end running at 120. Now take a High impedance volt meter. One prob to the center of the sink the other to a good ground source...
> 
> What happens?


 480 doesn't believe that water conducts electricity. He is fixed on his wood flooring.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Elephante said:


> 480 doesn't believe that water conducts electricity. He is fixed on his wood flooring.


:laughing:

He believes in tradition:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> Ever heard of gradient potential across the water?
> 
> Fill a porcelain sink up with water, preferably salt water, put two 1 inch electrodes at each end running at 120. Now take a High impedance volt meter. One prob to the center of the sink the other to a good ground source...
> 
> What happens?


Oh...... So I now need a porcelain floor with some electrodes hooked to it and use salt water in my dishwasher to slop onto the floor.

Suppose I use ordinary tap water to spill on my floor? How conductive is that?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh...... Suppose I use ordinary tap water to spill on my floor? How conductive is that?


It varies from area to area based on whats in the water.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> None of my proposals really made it more stringent. Some clarified the code but I had nothing to do with the sink rule.
> 
> Remember that the NEC also has another change that will allow 50' of 14/2 nm and 70' 12/2 nm to be run without break to the first outlet and an afci receptacle can be used there rather than in the panel. There are some if's to that that I don't quite understand yet.


That receptacle costs about the same as a breaker so I don't see an advantage,,,But I do see people taking out the receptacle and there will be no AFCI protection on the full circuit.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Oh...... So I now need a porcelain floor with some electrodes hooked to it and use salt water in my dishwasher to slop onto the floor.
> 
> Suppose I use ordinary tap water to spill on my floor? How conductive is that?


Tap water is pretty conductive. Chlorine,calcium,sodium,etc


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Thousands of people die every year from BFDFEFS (Bare Foot Dishwasher Flood Electrical Fatality Syndrone).

It's a serious issue and should be taken seriously. If we put half as much effort into the War on Dishwashers as we do the War on Drugs, we could increase life expectancy by less than 420%. 

THINK ABOUT IT.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

FastFokker said:


> Thousands of people die every year from BFDFEFS (Bare Foot Dishwasher Flood Electrical Fatality Syndrone).


 
I lost a cousin to this.

So it is close to my heart.....


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I lost a cousin to this.
> 
> So it is close to my heart.....


Thats why I believe all circuits should be GFCI protected rather than AFCI protected.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Sorry to hear. 


That's why I never take my socks off. Oh and I always have a gfci breaker between my butt cheeks. 

Knock on dry wood!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> Thousands of people die every year from BFDFEFS (Bare Foot Dishwasher Flood Electrical Fatality Syndrone).
> 
> It's a serious issue and should be taken seriously. If we put half as much effort into the War on Dishwashers as we do the War on Drugs, we could increase life expectancy by less than 420%.
> 
> THINK ABOUT IT.


I'm thinking..:blink:
















Still thinking..:blink:
















IDKBYDUFORGTABOUTIT:blink::laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Try this for size, the code changes every three years and a whole bunch of guys get to share in the proceeds, including the participants on the CMP's. So, even if stupid codes are produced, at least they got some production, and therefore justification for whatever the compensation they may (? *) receive.






* I have no idea if being on a CMP is a paying position or just a volunteer thing to get shiny gold stars on the shirt sleeves, kinda like how the guys who insist on submitting twenty proposals each cycle seem to be after.........


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

FastFokker said:


> Thousands of people die every year from BFDFEFS (Bare Foot Dishwasher Flood Electrical Fatality Syndrone).
> 
> It's a serious issue and should be taken seriously. If we put half as much effort into the War on Dishwashers as we do the War on Drugs, we could increase life expectancy by less than 420%.
> 
> THINK ABOUT IT.


Your absolutely right.it is an underlying problem that needs more awareness. It needs its own month.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't know about NEC, but CEC nobody gets paid anything. 

Some do it because they care, some do it to have their name printed.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I lost my dog to a dishwasher with a bad splice, no connector, flood malfunction. If it was only gfi.thank god for 2014 nec.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dishwashers-- hard wired or not-- GFCI required
> 
> 6' of sinks anywhere, including kitchens, gfci required- this may mean refrig, disposal, instant hots and trash compactors...
> 
> ...


 
AFCI for Kitchen et Laundry area ? do those guy ever understand the motour function and AFCI never a good mix in there ??

Good thing over here in France we keep the AFCI out the picture for a while but I do not know how long they will hold it back but what I did observe ( see ) is they are watching the North Americiane side how they will deal with AFCI's before they apply it over here.

I don't know which state will take the '14 NEC code but I am watching this part.

Merci,
Marc


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## vos (Apr 1, 2010)

I could be wrong but for some reason I that that if you had an GFCI and AFCI to getter they would mess up. And trip each other and cause problems


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

vos said:


> I could be wrong but for some reason I that that if you had an GFCI and AFCI to getter they would mess up. And trip each other and cause problems


 
Note true. one can have an AFCI breaker and a GFCI outlets. Most AFCIs to begin with have 30ma ground fault protection built in but its not the 5 ma required in wet locations.

The thing that surprises me is why they would have AFCI protection on a laundry circuit. I can get GFCI beacuse of the water but theres close to nothing that can arc in a laundry circuit considering its dedicated.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Note true. one can have an AFCI breaker and a GFCI outlets. Most AFCIs to begin with have 30ma ground fault protection built in but its not the 5 ma required in wet locations.
> 
> The thing that surprises me is why they would have AFCI protection on a laundry circuit. I can get GFCI beacuse of the water but theres close to nothing that can arc in a laundry circuit considering its dedicated.


The dryer or washer cord can arc if damaged and set the lint or clothes on fire. Who knows. Somebody is bored making these proposals.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Elephante said:


> Somebody is *bribed* making these proposals.


I took the liberty of corecting a spelling error:laughing::jester:

Seriously I hate AFCIs as they are, but now we have to put them everywhere?

By chance does anybody know if they are required for hard wired equipment like furnaces?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> I took the liberty of corecting a spelling error:laughing::jester:
> 
> Seriously I hate AFCIs as they are, but now we have to put them everywhere?
> 
> By chance does anybody know if they are required for hard wired equipment like furnaces?


 
I hope not but I am sure someone may know more details on the '14 edition and see what they will cover for that change.

Our NF ( Normes France aka French Electrical Code ) do not allow any RCD on the furnace at all only at the main RCD but branch circuit ., no RCD.

Merci,
Marc


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

FastFokker said:


> Sorry to hear.
> 
> 
> That's why I never take my socks off. Oh and I always have a gfci breaker between my butt cheeks.
> ...


 Otay! Buckwheat.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> ( Normes France aka French Electrical Code ) do not allow any RCD on the furnace at all only at the main RCD but branch circuit ., no RCD.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


What is the reasoning behind that though? Isn't it safer with the RCD?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> I hope not but I am sure someone may know more details on the '14 edition and see what they will cover for that change.
> 
> Our NF ( Normes France aka French Electrical Code ) do not allow any RCD on the furnace at all only at the main RCD but branch circuit ., no RCD.
> 
> ...



we should be so lucky as to have our myopic CMP actually look beyond our boarders....

~CS~


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> What is the reasoning behind that though? Isn't it safer with the RCD?





chicken steve said:


> we should be so lucky as to have our myopic CMP actually look beyond our boarders....
> 
> ~CS~


 
I know you guys will ask me this part so I will fill ya in with few direct simple answers .,

Meadow., The main RCD do set at 100ma so the conventail furance will not affect this function even we have some of the gaz furance have sparkers ( it the same way with oil furances do ingite useing ingtion transfomer ) so it will not affect the main RCD but the branch RCD breaker it have 30ma setting it may kick it out.

So that the reason why we do not use the branch RCD breakers for the furance function.

So we do enjoy this loophole as long the AFCI stay out of our area for time being.

The only major disvanange is that the RCD not always detect parallel arc faults so that is the only quirk we have with it. that why it been talking for a quite a while for few years. 

Poulet Steve.,

The funny thing about this mess it can change tables or hand if you say so .,

But the biggest thing is that the breaker manufacters are pushing something which the techolgy ( sorry for spelling ) not up to the speed with modern items espcally with switching load or motour that something the AFCI breaker manufacters are working on now but how much they improve on it ? That pretty much a open door discussion on that.

( Note: I am not sure but sound like someone is getting the money from somewhere related to this AFCI stuff but I have no proof on this one )

Then again we have one good SOP we always megger the circuit before it is engerized so we pretty much elemated most of the parallel arc faults but still not 100% proof on them ( ya can't just trust any idiots what they do after we are done with the wiring in the building ) 

Hope that help with your question.

If ya got more question I will try to answer much as possible.

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

FrenchOne,

As to the afci R&D , we have (as you know) been subjected to a few versions over the years. 

inasmuch as they seem to pass through our NRTL's , it is questionable as to what they actually address, and if you read into Dr Engle's report on them , it appears thier listings may eventually be confronted by actual hard sciences

To this point in time, they have not

As to your euro system RCD's , which are essentially installed in a decending order of ma within a panel that has a 'main', then 'submains' predicated on an earthing system taken seriously , i personally find to be a superior system. 

Not only in terms of common sense , but in terms of hard science

As it stands now, iirc ,the USofA ,and our Canadian brothers who seem intent on toddling along with us, are the only countries on this rock subscribing to afci technology 

There are no concise and all inclusive electrical fire statistics to validate any of their usage, there are no statistical analysis being created to validate the many installs since their debut (1999 in VT btw) , and there are no hard sciences to back up the technology. 

Even the underlying concept of addressing an _'arcing connection'_ is a complete facade at the apprentice level . considering what _'glowing connections'_ are seen do to at our 120V magnitude(s) here

We are perpetuating a technological fairytale ,essentially selling the public empty fire extinguishers 

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> FrenchOne,
> 
> As to the afci R&D , we have (as you know) been subjected to a few versions over the years.
> 
> ...


I agree in that Europes system is superior on many levels. RCDs have been used a lot more extensively, earthing is superior, no FPE quality or GE quality breakers for that matter exist in Europe, testing of circuits before energizing, lower losses, the list goes on and on. 

The number of fires from arc faults in reality is unknown. Once a structure has buned the usual asumption is the fire was electrical and its difficult to determine the exact cause. Firefighters and marshalls are not trained forensic experts in the anatomy of electrical faliures. Im sure there have been folks on here who have been asked to testify for a fire dparment as to how an electrical fire/faliure/shock ect ect happened and why. 

If anything improve lamp cord durability, jeeze the cords on lamps that have gotten UL labels YIKES! Back stab outlets should be outlawed, no pre-twist wire nuts should be outlawed as well. And if you really wanted to nit pick, the hundreds of exterior lights Ive seen without J boxes, DIY hack work, SEU service cable, 50 cent outlets... Heck the edison screw base socket is a joke. Oh and if anybody wants to know a real danger and a real hazard with electrical systems in this country that is never taken into consideration since day one; go break open a service neutral and then come and talk to me. Big and small there other things that should be looked at first rather than putting un-proven junk in electrical panels. 

I think Shocdoc has figured the whole thing out. :thumbup:

This ones for chicken steve:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Try this for size, the code changes every three years and a whole bunch of guys get to share in the proceeds, including the participants on the CMP's. So, even if stupid codes are produced, at least they got some production, and therefore justification for whatever the compensation they may (? *) receive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know either but I think it's mostly ego driven. Look at the guys here who get a woody just proclaiming how may proposals they made. Imagine if they actually had one accepted or gasp!!! got to decide what gets accepted. :laughing:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You all seem to forget that the cmp do not make the codes by themselves. They look at thousands of proposals and try to determine if they have merit. 

Many member of the electrical industry proposed these changes. This includes electricians and inspectors.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> I don't know either but I think it's mostly ego driven. Look at the guys here who get a woody just proclaiming how may proposals they made. Imagine if they actually had one accepted or gasp!!! got to decide what gets accepted. :laughing:


Some have thier proposals accepted w/o ever saying a word about it.....you wouldn't be able to associate their forum screen name with their actual name....


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

meadow said:


> I agree in that Europes system, earthing is superior,
> 
> Once a structure has *buned* the usual asumption is the fire was electrical
> 
> ...


This is messed up!!!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Some have thier proposals accepted w/o ever saying a word about it.....you wouldn't be able to associate their forum screen name with their actual name....



Ok. :confused1:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Ok. :confused1:


Not everyone is "ego driven" as you proclaimed.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Not everyone is "ego driven" as you proclaimed.


Ok, but I didn't.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> You guys are leaving food in the fridge for weeks then eating it?
> 
> 
> Unless its ketchup or some other condiment ~ it's getting tossed out.


Some people will spend money on a large meat order and keep it in the freezer..

I'm surprised you never heard of that.. http://www.omahasteaks.com/servlet/...M2F9trOx7YCFcJw4Aodg2IA3w:rolleyes::rolleyes:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Firefighters and marshalls are not trained forensic experts in the anatomy of electrical faliures.


boy, you can say that again Meadow

i did my time in the fire service, saw a lot of thumbnail forensics 

there is a national committee that sends out annual reports for statistical data collection _(i forget the name at the moment)_, but it's unfunded, and so everything else follows suit, as you can imagine






> Im sure there have been folks on here who have been asked to testify for a fire dparment as to how an electrical fire/faliure/shock ect ect happened and why.


yes but, it's usually foul play, or no foul play

and the insurance pays out

very few are pursued down to something trade and/or customer ignorance 

that and, a smoking cellar hole tells very few tales....


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You all seem to forget that the cmp do not make the codes by themselves. They look at thousands of proposals and try to determine if they have merit.
> 
> Many member of the electrical industry proposed these changes. This includes electricians and inspectors.



yes, and they respond to them with a rationale that is usually short, reeks of them only reading the first paragraph, and does NOT stick around on line for future reference....


~CS~


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Steve there is some truth to what you say however I have had a few proposals accepted and a few proposals that they read incorrectly. Look at the ROP.... there is alot of time and energy that goes into this. No doubt they miss alot but then you have the comment stage to respond to their decisions. I responded to one of mine because I felt they missed the point and they came back and accepted it.

Have you read thru the ROP?


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

With each code cycle, what you are seeing is a microcosnm of what has happened to American manufacturing. The NEC is getting to the point that it is simply too expensive for your everyday client to hire an electrical contractor. They have no choice but to take a chance with "Joe Trunk Slammer". 

Couple that with the fact I see the States becoming more and more stringent on who can work on electrical systems due to safety/liability/permit fees/license fees, I see a HUGE opportunity for a competing code making panel to produce a "common sense" code book.


----------



## Introyble (Jul 10, 2010)

In an effort to maintain good media exposure and PR the NEC released the coloring book version of 2014 early this week.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

wendon said:


> This is messed up!!!:laughing::laughing:


Ok so I misspelled a word early in the morning. What am I not getting?


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Not everyone is "ego driven" as you proclaimed.





electricmanscott said:


> Ok, but I didn't.


Ok. :confused1:



electricmanscott said:


> I don't know either but I think it's mostly ego driven. Look at the guys here who get a woody just proclaiming how may proposals they made. Imagine if they actually had one accepted or gasp!!! got to decide what gets accepted. :laughing:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Some people will spend money on a large meat order and keep it in the freezer..
> 
> I'm surprised you never heard of that.. http://www.omahasteaks.com/servlet/...M2F9trOx7YCFcJw4Aodg2IA3w:rolleyes::rolleyes:


I have... 

...but when I go away for weeks, perishable food either gets eaten before departure or tossed.

Why would a GFCI trip when there is no human interaction?


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Introyble said:


> In an effort to maintain good media exposure and PR the NEC released the coloring book version of 2014 early this week.


It's awesome




















:thumbup:


----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> With each code cycle, what you are seeing is a microcosnm of what has happened to American manufacturing. The NEC is getting to the point that it is simply too expensive for your everyday client to hire an electrical contractor. They have no choice but to take a chance with "Joe Trunk Slammer".
> 
> Couple that with the fact I see the States becoming more and more stringent on who can work on electrical systems due to safety/liability/permit fees/license fees, I see a HUGE opportunity for a competing code making panel to produce a "common sense" code book.


I see more of an opportunity for every state to have a state based licensed. That will help eliminate the trunk slammers.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Auselect said:


> I see more of an opportunity for every state to have a state based licensed. That will help eliminate the trunk slammers.


Mandatory state licensing will not eliminate trunk slammers. Reducing the costs of doing business will. EC's will then be able to lower prices to the point homeowners will be able to afford hiring an EC and not looking for cheaper options.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Celtic said:


> It's awesome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


3 wire line with a single bushing transformer:whistling2::jester:

The exaust piping and muffler show the gases going in the wrong direction. And oh, the guy in the cat suits needs a better hobby, obviously he isnt getting laid.


----------



## Introyble (Jul 10, 2010)

Celtic said:


> It's awesome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice LMAO:laughing:


----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> Mandatory state licensing will not eliminate trunk slammers. Reducing the costs of doing business will. EC's will then be able to lower prices to the point homeowners will be able to afford hiring an EC and not looking for cheaper options.


I don't see it that way. A state license will mean all EC's must pay a yearly fee, have continuing education, carry proper insurance. Yeah it's going to cost us more money but it puts all EC's on the same level.
The state would need high fines for unlicensed work
You won't completely eliminate trunk slammers but the customers that will use those guys opposed to a legit EC, I'm sure we wouldn't want.

Reducing the cost of business will help the trunk slammers, it will encourage more of them to "think" their becoming legit EC's

If cost of business increases, increase your rate, if we are all on the same playing field, everyone will have to increase their rate.

As for AFCI's, yeah they can suck but once we all become more experienced with them, I'm sure the issues will easily become a thing of the past, just a matter of time. I'm totally for increased electrical safety. Why AFCI's on selected branch circuits??? The whole installation should be protected.
I do like the European system of main GFCI set at 100mA, didn't know they did that, makes sense.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Auselect said:


> I don't see it that way. A state license will mean all EC's must pay a yearly fee, have continuing education, carry proper insurance. Yeah it's going to cost us more money but it puts all EC's on the same level.
> The state would need high fines for unlicensed work
> You won't completely eliminate trunk slammers but the customers that will use those guys opposed to a legit EC, I'm sure we wouldn't want.
> 
> ...


I see your argument bass ackwards. Yes, it does put all LEGIT EC's on the same playing field, however, it will give the advantage to unlicensed handymen. The increased licensing mandate will make the cost of doing business go up. From business licensing to employee wages. The EC will have to charge more to cover their costs.

The unlicensed handyman's costs stay the same in either scenario. 

In contrast, if you reduce the cost of doing business, an EC will be able to charge less and still make the same profit. Thus bringing his cost more in line with the handyman and making the EC's services more attractive to the homeowner.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

meadow said:


> Ok so I misspelled a word early in the morning. What am I not getting?


Why is "earthing" superior to grounding?

What's wrong with Edison base? Are you proposing that they come up with some sort of a safety base that will only allow you to screw in a certain wattage of bulb?

What's wrong with a "no pre-twist" wire nut? If your hands aren't strong enough to twist them tight enough, use the tool!


----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

But the unlicensed runs the risk of huge fines.
Under a state license, only qualified EC's could touch electrical
How many customers do you have that would choose unlicensed over licensed and risk massive fines and zero liability?
I agree an issue would be how to enforce it, all counties and towns would have to be on the same page as the state.....a better inspection system is needed, at least here in Upstate NY


Guess we have to agree to disagree but you have to admit, I can not see them ever decreasing the cost of business.....


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Auselect said:


> I don't see it that way. A state license will mean all EC's must pay a yearly fee, have continuing education, carry proper insurance. Yeah it's going to cost us more money but it puts all EC's on the same level.
> The state would need high fines for unlicensed work
> You won't completely eliminate trunk slammers but the customers that will use those guys opposed to a legit EC, I'm sure we wouldn't want.
> 
> ...



Sounds great on paper. Load of crap in reality. Here in Mass we have strict licensing requirements. I'm all for doing what you have to do to pay the bills but these guys are morons, plain and simple. IF they are operating legally, they make about the same as a part time Home Depot employee. :laughing:

Well we now know the answer to "what's the going rate?" Probably averages out to about 42 bucks an hour. :laughing:




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> 28 YEARS EXP. FULLY LICENSED AND INSURED. FREE WRITTEN ESTIMATES OR BY THE HR. @ $45.00 hr.





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----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Sounds great on paper. Load of crap in reality. Here in Mass we have strict licensing requirements. I'm all for doing what you have to do to pay the bills but these guys are morons, plain and simple. IF they are operating legally, they make about the same as a part time Home Depot employee. :laughing:
> 
> It's a shame of the reality your seeing, maybe the powers that be are not dishing out heavy enough fines to unlicensed work, but you do agree its a great idea.
> The reality I've seen, the system I described works great back in Australia, guess its just how it is implemented.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I have...
> 
> ...but when I go away for weeks, *perishable food either gets eaten before departure or tossed.*
> Why would a GFCI trip when there is no human interaction?


Why would you throw out food in the freezer.. :blink::blink:

It is not the GFCI that will be the weak link.. the AFCI is the problem when motors are connected to it...

There have been plenty of posts here about vacuums and nuisance tripping..


----------



## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Sounds great on paper. Load of crap in reality. Here in Mass we have strict licensing requirements. I'm all for doing what you have to do to pay the bills but these guys are morons, plain and simple. IF they are operating legally, they make about the same as a part time Home Depot employee. :laughing:
> 
> Well we now know the answer to "what's the going rate?" Probably averages out to about 42 bucks an hour. :laughing:


I just read your "quotes" again, so my previous post propably doesn't make much sense.
Let guys charge $42 per hour, they won't be in business for long.....then again it's easier for me to say then to actually be in your shoes


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Auselect said:


> It's a shame of the reality your seeing, maybe the powers that be are not dishing out heavy enough fines to unlicensed work, but you do agree its a great idea.
> The reality I've seen, the system I described works great back in Australia, guess its just how it is implemented.


These are all licensed contractors. I looked at their ads. They show a license number and a name and I checked a few. This is a bunch of "legit" guys. It is not possible to operate legally at those rates. It really kind of ruined my day seeing all of these.


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Big John said:


> Dennis, wasn't it you or someone else here that actually proposed that within-6'-of-all-sinks rule?
> 
> B4T, you can read up on the substantiation for a lot of these. They post it online. Sometimes you see the sense in it afterwards, but sometimes not.


 
It was me ! I wrote the original proposal to include Kitchen sinks . The 2011 excluded kitchen sinks from the 6' rule. It only stated receptacles installed to serve the counter top. I am seeing a lot of receptacles that are within 6' of the sink ,BUT not installed to serve the counter top,even though they are being used for counter top applicances.

The CMP shot it down durnig the proposal phase. But it came back to life during the comments phase.

I also had a proposal accepted that will require all "Other than Cord & Plug Connected" vending machines to be connected to a GFCI protected circuit.

I was talking with Jeff Sargent from the NFPA last month. The GFCI requirement for dishwashers & disposals is IF they are plugged into a receptacle, not hard wired. 
They are adding AFCI protection to the kitchen and Laundry rooms.
There will be a ton of AFCI's in a kitchen. 

An AFCI main Breaker ? what are you insane !
I sure as hell would not want my entire house /detached shop/ detached garages going dark because of a bad lamp cord somewhere. I would much rather it shut down that local cicuit only


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> I was talking with Jeff Sargent from the NFPA last month. The GFCI requirement for dishwashers & disposals is IF they are plugged into a receptacle, not hard wired.


What is the reasoning for this?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> These are all licensed contractors. I looked at their ads. They show a license number and a name and I checked a few. This is a bunch of "legit" guys. It is not possible to operate legally at those rates. It really kind of ruined my day seeing all of these.


Those must be from the Craigs List swamp... :no::no:

Check out the Yellow Page ads and see what those guys charge if they even post a price..


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Those must be from the Craigs List swamp... :no::no:
> 
> Check out the Yellow Page ads and see what those guys charge if they even post a price..


They are CL posters and I knew someone would mention that. Not sure why it matters though.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> They are CL posters and I knew someone would mention that. Not sure why it matters though.


Because Craigs List is like a back alley in the seedy part of town where the hookers and pimps hang out...IMO...


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> It was me ! I wrote the original proposal to include Kitchen sinks . The 2011 excluded kitchen sinks from the 6' rule. It only stated receptacles installed to serve the counter top. I am seeing a lot of receptacles that are within 6' of the sink ,BUT not installed to serve the counter top,even though they are being used for counter top applicances.
> 
> The CMP shot it down durnig the proposal phase. But it came back to life during the comments phase.
> 
> ...


So, do you have stocks in P&S or Schneider Electric? Or both? They better come up with combination AFCI's with the proper ma setting so you won't need to install a GFI receptacle. If you hard wire the disposal or the dishwasher, what are you going to do for a service disconnect?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

meadow said:


> 3 wire line with a single bushing transformer....


 And where the hell is the MGN? That picture is totally unrealistic. 

And maybe I missed it, but it looks to me like GFCI protection on dishwashers was rejected. But for some reason they saw fit to require AFCI protection. 

The substantiation for both of those was really flimsy. It amounted to nothing more than "Do it because this is a problem!" Also, it's hilarious to me that the guy who submitted all the proposals for appliances that fail dangerously and need AFCI and GFCI protection was a representative for *GE Appliance* and Lighting. :lol:


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I stand corrected !!

I just was on the NFPA website reading the ROC for 210.8 GFCI requirements for dishwashers.
What I read states dishwasher outlet- So it appears that it is the direct wired as well as cord connected - I apoligize my bad.

disconnecting means ??
if your dishwasher has a marked off position and disconnnects all ungrounded conductors - it shall be permitted to be the disconnecting means - NEC 422.34

Disposal disconnect - don't they have switches that turn them on and off 

Like it or not GFCI protection is coming to a dishwasher near you


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

wendon said:


> So, do you have stocks in P&S or Schneider Electric? Or both? They better come up with combination AFCI's with the proper ma setting so you won't need to install a GFI receptacle. If you hard wire the disposal or the dishwasher, what are you going to do for a service disconnect?


No I don't have stock in them , (well I best check my mutual funds to be sure)

I did not come up with the dishwasher gfci requirement. I only went for the within 6' of the sink deal


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> disconnecting means ??
> if your dishwasher has a marked off position and disconnnects all ungrounded conductors - it shall be permitted to be the disconnecting means - NEC 422.34


nit picky but, it's technically a disco if it can be lotto'd.....~CS~


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> What is the reasoning for this?


From the ROC:
*(D) Kitchen Dishwasher branch circuit.​*​​​​GFCI protection shall be provided
for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.​
*Substantiation:​*​​​​As the requirement for ground-fault circuit-interrupters
(GFCIs) has been expanded throughout the NEC code, the amount of electrical
shock incidents related to consumer products have continued to decline over
time. Increased usage of GFCls within branch circuits of residential homes is a
highly effective means of further reducing the potential for electrical shocks.
CMP-2 should require GFCI protection on the dishwasher circuit.​
*Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results:​*​​​​Affirmative: 9 Negative: 4​
________________________________________________________________​​​​​


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> ...Like it or not GFCI protection is coming to a dishwasher near you


 Is it? I see a lot of proposals to include GFCI protection on a dishwasher receptacle within 6' of a sink.

But this was the only one I saw specifically for dishwashers:


> 2-58 Log #2561 NEC-P02
> Final Action: Reject
> (210.8(D))
> ________________________________________________________
> ...


 And personally, while I think GFCIs are very effective, I think that substantiation is bogus. By that logic we could literally GFCI protect everything.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

So if you provided a receptacle (outlet) for it, it would be a gfi, but hardwired no?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> So if you provided a receptacle (outlet) for it, it would be a gfi, but hardwired no?


Makes zero sense considering the substantiation posted.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> So if you provided a receptacle (outlet) for it, it would be a gfi, but hardwired no?


 They are using the NEC definition of the word "outlet", which is the connection point for any dishwasher, be that cord-and-plug or hardwired.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

wendon said:


> Why is "earthing" superior to grounding?
> 
> What's wrong with Edison base? Are you proposing that they come up with some sort of a safety base that will only allow you to screw in a certain wattage of bulb?
> 
> What's wrong with a "no pre-twist" wire nut? If your hands aren't strong enough to twist them tight enough, use the tool!


The terms are the same, but in Europe grounding standards are more stringent. For one EGC are required to be insulated which prevents it from shorting out should it touch a hot. Earth loop impedance has to be tested rather than just pounding 2 ground rods and running. Chicken steve could probably explain it better than me. 

The edison screw base is universal, which means someone can toss in a 200 watt bulb in a flush mount rated for 60. That and the fact the currrent carrying shell is partially exposed when screwing in the bulb, a good surprise if the outlet is revere wired. 

"no pre twist wire nuts" are just that for some, they dont twist the ends before putting the nut on. 2 twists and stuff em in, no tools either. The springs just loosly holds the copper in there. I personally have seen poor splices trip AFCIs. 

If the code making panel is that concerned about about arc faults require MC or EMT with metal boxes. Make it a requirment to megger all circuits... I dunno but the AFCI thing just isnt my thing.


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Big John said:


> Is it? I see a lot of proposals to include GFCI protection on a dishwasher receptacle within 6' of a sink.
> 
> But this was the only one I saw specifically for dishwashers: And personally, while I think GFCIs are very effective, I think that substantiation is bogus. By that logic we could literally GFCI protect everything.


That is from the ROP - Report on Proposals.

The ROP is the first go round.

You need to look at the ROC - Report on Comments.

It was accepted during the comments phase

Laundry circuits will also require GFCI protection !


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Are we really that concerned with the impedance to ground in a residential setting when its done to the present standards? I can understand in some commercial situations, but I think its a stretch for residential. Whats the difference between using metal boxes with a insulated bond wire and plastic and a bare? If you are paying attention at finish, you are tucking the wires away from the terminals. My problems with AFCI have been the appliances or lighting, generally not the wiring.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Are we really that concerned with the impedance to ground in a residential setting when its done to the present standards? I can understand in some commercial situations, but I think its a stretch for residential. Whats the difference between using metal boxes with a insulated bond wire and plastic and a bare? If you are paying attention at finish, you are tucking the wires away from the terminals. My problems with AFCI have been the appliances or lighting, generally not the wiring.


 
An insulated EGC is one less thing that can cause an arc fault. A metal box will contain an arc fault or glowing connection better than a plastic carlon. Wiring aside the appliance thing is proof the technology isnt ready for code enforcement.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree that the appliance manufacturers need to burden the responsibility to test their appliances and make them operate in a manner that under normal circumstances they will not cause either GFCI or AFCI devices to trip. Adding a insulated ground to romex wouldn't be that big of a deal, though I'm not convinced. Plastic boxes aren't going anywhere in the residential world. As the guy who teaches the code review classes says when he gets off course "plastic vs steel people". Usually in reference to conduit or NM.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

meadow said:


> An insulated EGC is one less thing that can cause an arc fault....


But where does it stop? 

If you could show me the empirical hazard from using a bare EGC, I'd totally agree to mandated insulation. I changed my mind regarding tamper-resistant receptacles for that very reason.

What I don't like is a sweeping, expensive change that appears to be based on nothing more substantial than than a bunch of people guessing and assuming.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think its more about selling more GFIs than anything else. I don't care as long as it works after I leave and like Steve says not have to spend endless time dealing with issues. The manufacturers don't really care.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Why would you throw out food in the freezer.. :blink:


I wouldn't...I would plan properly and eat it before departure  ..a rather complicated plan for some. :laughing:



B4T said:


> It is not the GFCI that will be the weak link.. the AFCI is the problem when motors are connected to it...
> 
> There have been plenty of posts here about vacuums and nuisance tripping..


...thats great ~ AFCI's nuisance trip [x] check....

but the discussion is about GFCI's on DW, fridges, etc

Here's the Cliff notes you participated in:


Dennis Alwon said:


> Dishwashers-- hard wired or not-- GFCI required
> 
> 6' of sinks anywhere, including kitchens, gfci required- this may mean refrig, disposal, instant hots and trash compactors...
> 
> ...





B4T said:


> So who gets sued when the HO goes on vacation for (3) weeks and the fridge GFI or AFCI trips....
> 
> I see nothing but headaches with these code changes.... :no::no:
> 
> ...





BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.





B4T said:


> Commercial kitchen owners don't go on vacation for weeks at a clip...
> 
> That makes a HO a car of a different color..





Celtic said:


> You guys are leaving food in the fridge for weeks then eating it?
> 
> 
> Unless its ketchup or some other condiment ~ it's getting tossed out.



Derail yourself?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Derail yourself?


No.. not really.. Kitchens and laundry area... AFCI..


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> No.. not really.. Kitchens and laundry area... AFCI..


...we haven't been on AFCI in quite awhile now...





B4T said:


> So who gets sued when the HO goes on vacation for (3) weeks and the fridge GFI or AFCI trips....
> 
> I see nothing but headaches with these code changes.... :no::no:
> 
> ...





BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using *GFCIs* on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for* GFCIs* tripping and spoiling food.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

....since at least #*21*


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Steve there is some truth to what you say however I have had a few proposals accepted and a few proposals that they read incorrectly. Look at the ROP.... there is alot of time and energy that goes into this. No doubt they miss alot but then you have the comment stage to respond to their decisions. I responded to one of mine because I felt they missed the point and they came back and accepted it.
> 
> Have you read thru the ROP?


Yes i usually make the mecca to the nfpa rop site if there's a hot one up @ bat Denny

If i had your patience i might have commented in the past

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I agree that the appliance manufacturers need to burden the responsibility to test their appliances and make them operate in a manner that under normal circumstances they will not cause either GFCI or AFCI devices to trip. .




I dunno nrp3, how many of these dishwasher incidents have come back on the appliance manufacturers would be my Q

My own cynicism moves me to believe they could lobby for gfci protection simply to continue importing 3rd world components and assemblies that dodge the NRTL bullet

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Time for a musical number .....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ...we haven't been on AFCI in quite awhile now...


Threads always run wild in here.. this is not MH.. but the black sheep in the family.. :laughing:

Go back one page and the topic was pricing on CL.. but we got back to AFCI's without any problem...

You just need to keep up.. :thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> FrenchOne,
> 
> As to the afci R&D , we have (as you know) been subjected to a few versions over the years.
> 
> ...


 
I did reply in bleu so you will know that is my comment and I will reply to other members comments along the way so just get on your pompier and go for a ride.

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Deep Cover said:


> With each code cycle, what you are seeing is a microcosnm of what has happened to American manufacturing. The NEC is getting to the point that it is simply too expensive for your everyday client to hire an electrical contractor. They have no choice but to take a chance with "Joe Trunk Slammer".
> 
> Couple that with the fact I see the States becoming more and more stringent on who can work on electrical systems due to safety/liability/permit fees/license fees, I see a HUGE opportunity for a competing code making panel to produce a "common sense" code book.


 
Deep Cover ., 

Just let you know ya guys are not alone with the fees and license etc etc we have the same situation over here in France so you are not alone in the " wood" area. In fact it pretty much allover the European area.

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> Why is "earthing" superior to grounding?
> 
> What's wrong with Edison base? Are you proposing that they come up with some sort of a safety base that will only allow you to screw in a certain wattage of bulb?
> 
> What's wrong with a "no pre-twist" wire nut? If your hands aren't strong enough to twist them tight enough, use the tool!


The word " Earthing " basically it is a ground and that word is widespreaded used allover the European area no matter which langunge it used the earth is the same beside small variation of couple letterings that about it.

Oh by the way the photo you posted that someone did insane hackwork that will not fly around in here.

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> It was me ! I wrote the original proposal to include Kitchen sinks . The 2011 excluded kitchen sinks from the 6' rule. It only stated receptacles installed to serve the counter top. I am seeing a lot of receptacles that are within 6' of the sink ,BUT not installed to serve the counter top,even though they are being used for counter top applicances.
> 
> The CMP shot it down durnig the proposal phase. But it came back to life during the comments phase.
> 
> ...


Cool you did clear up the details on that.

AFCI main breaker ?? naw I doubt it ., but if you look up some of our European panel arrangement I am pretty sure you may spoted our French panels we do have main RCD breaker that useally on outdoor location that have 100ma setting ( typically for common size resdentail useage ) then we have submains so we can split in smaller sections so it will not affect the whole system so the submain is at 30 or 60ma or use the differnal breaker sorta like modifed RCD or GFCI breaker then branch RCD breakers or conventail breakers depending on what it serve.

Merci,
Marc


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> But where does it stop?
> 
> If you could show me the empirical hazard from using a bare EGC, I'd totally agree to mandated insulation. I changed my mind regarding tamper-resistant receptacles for that very reason.
> 
> What I don't like is a sweeping, expensive change that appears to be based on nothing more substantial than than a bunch of people guessing and assuming.


 

I dont have any empirical evidence or studies, but that ones more from personal experience in resi that Im sure many have had here. The most common one being the bare EGC from romex hiting screws on switches and shorting out. If you look at AFCI tripping on here a common cause is th EGC touching the neutral on outlets. 

What I never fully got was why the EGC in MC is insulated but bare in romex. My best guess is galvanic corrosion from steel boxes, but then again Ive never seen that happen with bare contact. Fire code maby?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> I dont have any empirical evidence or studies, but that ones more from personal experience in resi that Im sure many have had here. The most common one being the bare EGC from romex hiting screws on switches and shorting out. If you look at AFCI tripping on here a common cause is th EGC touching the neutral on outlets.
> 
> What I never fully got was why the EGC in MC is insulated but bare in romex. My best guess is galvanic corrosion from steel boxes, but then again Ive never seen that happen with bare contact. Fire code maby?


I think the ground wire is bare in romex because its cheaper,one less insulated wire.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Elephante said:


> I think the ground wire is bare in romex because its cheaper,one less insulated wire.


 
It would be cheaper in MC cable as well, bringing the price down.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> It would be cheaper in MC cable as well, bringing the price down.


Maybe like you said galvanic corrosion is why they insulate the ground for mc or a code issue?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I dunno nrp3, how many of these dishwasher incidents have come back on the appliance manufacturers would be my Q
> 
> My own cynicism moves me to believe they could lobby for gfci protection simply to continue importing 3rd world components and assemblies that dodge the NRTL bullet
> 
> ~CS~


I know one thing, nearly every major dishwasher manufacturer had had a recall on one or a few of models in the last 10 years. About half of them have been from electronic controls getting to hot/ connecters acring. 


This website is just for one problem in a batch of Whirlpool made dishwashers:

http://www.kitchenaidfire.com/


Similar sights can be found for other dishwasher manufactures. No wonder a GE (the 2nd biggest maker of home appliances in the US) guy is making code proposals on DW having AFCIs:whistling2:










Elephante said:


> Maybe like you said galvanic corrosion is why they insulate the ground for mc or a code issue?


No clue, but I wonder all the time why its like that.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> I know one thing, nearly every major dishwasher manufacturer had had a recall on one or a few of models in the last 10 years. About half of them have been from electronic controls getting to hot/ connecters acring.
> 
> 
> This website is just for one problem in a batch of Whirlpool made dishwashers:
> ...


Now that is instering to see that and I can see why someone want to step up to the AFCI protection.

Merci,
Marc


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Dishwasher companies are proposing these arc fault breakers because of their defective control boards.These people are slick to save a buck. Now we have to explain to the customers why their arc fault breaker are tripping. Dishwasher company will point the fingers at us or breaker company and we will point back under our time and labor. Hopefully their new dishwashers aren't crap or the customer doesn't use an older model.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Dishwasher companies are proposing these arc fault breakers because of their defective control boards.These people are slick to save a buck. Now we have to explain to the customers why their arc fault breaker are tripping. Dishwasher company will point the fingers at us or breaker company and we will point back under our time and labor. Hopefully their new dishwashers aren't crap or the customer doesn't use an older model.


I supposed they do that to save their butt on the recall cost that can really drain the compaine resource fast.

Even our European spec'ed verison our common branch RCD breaker will work just fine in most case. so the only issue is the control board but I belive they do use differnt control board / harness for 240 volt circuits which we do used over here.

Merci,
Marc


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Now that is instering to see that and I can see why someone want to step up to the AFCI protection.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Part of the problem is cheap out of country made circuit boards that along with heat nad humidity. Interestingly when machines had electro mechanical timers this was very rare. Go figure.

You might be able to answer this, what is the reasong behind equipment grounding conducters being insulated in Europe and other parts of the world but not in USA romex?:001_huh:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> Part of the problem is cheap out of country made circuit boards that along with heat nad humidity. Interestingly when machines had electro mechanical timers this was very rare. Go figure.
> 
> Ya tell me about that .,, the old school electromechanical timers / controllers are very rare to go bonkers so may be 1 out of probly jezz who know the zut numbers .,, but for the last 15 years I been in France. ( that do count my time for bounceing between usa and France but been stay in here for the last 5 years steady )
> 
> ...


 
Bottom line it have to meet our NF / CE / UK REG 17 plus few other country requirement so they end up useing insluated ground conductor on the T&E ( twin et earth aka Romex cable to your side ) that part I will have to find out when it was in effect but I am pretty sure on safe side it was about 25 years ago they put that in effect on that requirment.

I am not sure which country did start that requirment but I have a feeling it was either UK or Germany they were the first one to spec'ed on that so it got widespread around here and it carry over to other countries.

I just wish the USA side get on the ride with our style of T&E cable I think if they did use that route the numbers of AFCI issue may drop down some degrees even with RCD/ GFCI format as well.

Merci,
Marc


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> I just wish the USA side get on the ride with our style of T&E cable I think if they did use that route the numbers of AFCI issue may drop down some degrees even with RCD/ GFCI format as well.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


 
I wish the same. My opinion is your system in France has major advantages over the one in America, along with your T&E cable. Most on here will not like or agree with this; but I wish the codes and standards in Europe were used over here. Electricity just look a lot easier and more well thought out over in France and The United Kingdom.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

meadow said:


> I wish the same. My opinion is your system in France has major advantages over the one in America, along with your T&E cable. Most on here will not like or agree with this; but I wish the codes and standards in Europe were used over here. Electricity just look a lot easier and more well thought out over in France and The United Kingdom.


It will be a very long time before it can be international standardized.

The NF codes I have is the same size as your NEC code book and we do update every few years 3-5 years unless something come up quick then it can be address quick.

But for now let see how far the North Americian side deal with AFCI and the 2014 NEC code and I will like to compare the notes between the two and just be prepared for some change as Dennis mention one of the highlighted part.

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good one Meadow....:thumbsup:

KitchenAidFire.com




> Problem:
> 
> Dishwasher fires - affecting *24 million*+ KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Sears Kenmore, and Maytag dishwashers (all manufactured by Whirlpool). Product design/defect causes predictable opportunity for control circuit board failure leading to fire.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>



> A federal *class action lawsuit* claims Whirlpool and Sears sold defective KitchenAid and Kenmore-brand dishwashers with electronic control boards that can overheat and spontaneously burst into flames.
> 
> According to the class action lawsuit, Whirlpool and Sears market their KitchenAid and Kenmore dishwashers as top-of-the-line appliances that are of superior quality, reliability and longevity. However, Whirlpool and Sears concealed from the public that the electronic control boards in the dishwashers contain a dangerous defect that cause them to *spontaneously overheat and cause the dishwasher to emit smoke and fumes and erupt in flames. *
> 
> The KitchenAid and Kenmore defective dishwasher class action lawsuit also charges Whirlpool with failing to provide a satisfactory warranty that would cure or rectify the alleged defect, which* the lawsuit alleges the company knew about since at least 2008*



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

a whole page of news reports with vids of dishwasher events


a whole page of news articles of dishwahser events


So what we appear to have is a manufacturer who is selling a known piece of crap, hasn't addressed the issues thier piece of crap has, it embroiled in a class action suit over their piece of crap, and looking to hid it all behind _another_ mandated piece of crap.

Of course they are probably unaware that an afci will not mitigate a glowing (series) event, so their problems will most likely continue

Does anyone else read a death spiral of blatant incompetence into this?

~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> There are some if's to that that I don't quite understand yet.


I'd bet the manufacturers will clear it up when their new product is available.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Arc Faults for DC systems? Someones trying hard there too:whistling2:

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?17019-Afci-for




"Eaton Corporation is working hard to bring a product":laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

meadow said:


> I wish the same. My opinion is your system in France has major advantages over the one in America, along with your T&E cable. Most on here will not like or agree with this; but I wish the codes and standards in Europe were used over here. Electricity just look a lot easier and more well thought out over in France and The United Kingdom.


I don't see an advantage using T&E over romex other then the insulated ground.
All T&E that I have used is silicone based (maybe not actually but it's the best way to describe it). The T&E is similar to the US' SO cord....I could imagine a hell of a lot of issues pulling that into metal boxes, rips far too easily....great to work with on plastic boxes though, you only need a pair of pliers to do all your stripping.
I must be missing something because I see no T&E advantage???


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Auselect said:


> I don't see an advantage using T&E over romex other then the insulated ground.
> All T&E that I have used is silicone based (maybe not actually but it's the best way to describe it). The T&E is similar to the US' SO cord....I could imagine a hell of a lot of issues pulling that into metal boxes, rips far too easily....great to work with on plastic boxes though, you only need a pair of pliers to do all your stripping.
> I must be missing something because I see no T&E advantage???


Ya not missing anything but I know some of the T&E cable were round but for our country ( France ) all are flat unless you have triplex or quad avce earth then it will be round but materalwise it feel little different than what the USA side been using IMO it a little on soft side when they are new but by time they aged down a little it will harden up.

Merci,
Marc


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So if I suspend my dishwasher from the ceiling...............


I pictured this and laughed out loud..... long week i guess:thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I pictured this and laughed out loud..... long week i guess:thumbup:


Don't forget this came from a guy who needs (4) cameras to back up his truck.. :laughing:

Or was that to see where he was coming from.. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> Don't forget this came from a guy who needs (4) cameras to back up his truck.. :laughing:
> 
> Or was that o see where he was coming from.. laughing:


Don't forget this came from a guy who buries unlisted boxes and unlisted connectors.

And thinks that drawing a map magically makes it Code compliant.  :laughing:


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## MisterCMK (Jul 5, 2009)

B4T said:


> So who gets sued when the HO goes on vacation for (3) weeks and the fridge GFI or AFCI trips....


Sounds like environmental monitoring needs to be added on to the burg panel. What is better than getting a call that your fridge is getting warm and the power is out or the sump pump basket is over full?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Told you all there is mad payoffs going on between the manufacturers and the NFPA. Who's watching the watchers ? No one. Class action lawsuit time to tone down the BS going on.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I was dreaming about Canada last night, it was a great place. The NEC and BS in washington makes it look even better.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

the insanity will only stop if and when manufactures are eliminated from code making panels and replaced with working contractors....jmo:thumbsup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We can complain and be part of the problem or help change things by writing proposals and be part of the solution.

I realize we only have so much power but if you can substantiate your reasoning then the changes will usually occur.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We can complain and be part of the problem or help change things by writing proposals and be part of the solution.
> 
> I realize we only have so much power but if you can substantiate your reasoning then the changes will usually occur.


Could I just send them a few hundred cases of defective afci breakers?? That good enough t substantiate?


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Could I just send them a few hundred cases of defective afci breakers?? That good enough t substantiate?


They would probably just say it was due to damage during shipping or some other bs.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Will ya just stop it already. :laughing:
> 
> Commercial kitchens have been using GFCIs on all sorts stuff for years, no one is getting sued for GFCIs tripping and spoiling food.


But commercial kitchens typically are manned 6-7 days a week, no vacations. A HO on vacation and as B4T noted this can and possible will happen, but if the CB trips there should be a reason, one would assume?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We can complain and be part of the problem or help change things by writing proposals and be part of the solution.
> 
> I realize we only have so much power but if you can substantiate your reasoning then the changes will usually occur.


Not that I would, but I doubt this will ever be overturned.

No one likes change I remember GFCI's nd how electricians bemoaned and cried the new rules, adapt and make money.

In the real world laws and rules are seldom to never revoked, whichnis why it is against the law to drive with a sheep in the back seat of your car in Virginia.

I do not like the fact that manufactures SEEM to have a real driving force with the NEC and other associations.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

donselec said:


> the insanity will only stop if and when manufactures are eliminated from code making panels and replaced with working contractors....jmo:thumbsup:


The other option is for communities to come up with another version of the code. Something separate and from a different point of view but that will never happen because of lawyers, politicians and manufactures.
If the cities and states just don't adopt the code the NFPA would go out of business. Or better yet just go back and adopt the 93.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> Some people will spend money on a large meat order and keep it in the freezer..
> 
> I'm surprised you never heard of that.. http://www.omahasteaks.com/servlet/...M2F9trOx7YCFcJw4Aodg2IA3w:rolleyes::rolleyes:


And there will always be a small silent majority like myself who will have no regard to rediculous code changes and continue installing single receptacles on a non AFCI/GFCI breaker for freezers and sump pumps.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> And there will always be a small silent majority like myself who will have no regard to rediculous code changes and continue installing single receptacles on a non AFCI/GFCI breaker for freezers and sump pumps.


You're a badddd man!


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> You're a badddd man!


 
More like common sense.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> You're a badddd man!


 
Maybe so but some local codes may override that requirement so I am not too suprised with that.

Merci,
Marc


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