# Have you ever been failed for this?



## CooperElec (May 6, 2013)

Has anyone ever been failed for bringing romex into the back of a PVC outdoor box surface mounted outside on the siding?

I know people say it's against code and it's a big debate, but what is your real world experience?


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## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

into a pvc box? no i would never do that


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## CooperElec (May 6, 2013)

duramaxdarren said:


> into a pvc box? no i would never do that


So you have no experience with it? :laughing:


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## duramaxdarren (Sep 12, 2012)

yup zero lol


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## youngapprentice (Mar 31, 2012)

ive gone into the back of an fsc box with a two screw connector and just caulked the **** out of it and i dont see nothing wrong with it. itll just suck for the next guy who has to take the caulk off it haha.


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

That is done here all of the time, not an issue.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

CooperElec said:


> Has anyone ever been failed for bringing romex into the back of a PVC outdoor box surface mounted outside on the siding?
> 
> I know people say it's against code and it's a big debate, but what is your real world experience?


done all the time here...no drama


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Years ago, I was failed for bringing romex into the back of a standard bell box for a OS GFI. I've heard they have backed off a little bit on this, but I'm not taking the chance.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

I go right in the back of a bell box and no one ever said it can't be done,What code article does it violate.?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

They were saying that the inside of the WP box was considered the same as the inside of EMT outside. Now I run UF or pipe with THHN/THWN.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Here is the code section in question:



> *300.9 Raceways in Wet Locations Abovegrade.* Where
> raceways are installed in wet locations abovegrade, the interior of
> these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location.
> Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet
> locations abovegrade shall comply with 310.10(C).


My contribution to the discussion is, is a PVC FS box outdoors considered a raceway? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can answer that because I don't know. Personally, I've used romex in that application a few times but I actively try to use UF cable instead.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

In Oregon we have an obscure code ruling that allows romex to be installed in violation of 300.9 for some applications. Here is the link if you care to read the document:

http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external.../20080725_08-03_NMB_Cable_Outdoor_Sleeves.pdf

I'm pretty pissy about that one because I only learned about it recently. Where it really nails me is when I do mini-split A/C units. I've been using UF cable for the interconnect wire and that of course is a real bitch, but apparently the inspectors are allowing romex in that application. When referred to the above document, I argued that there's no way in hell that anyone stuffing romex into LFNMC for a mini-split is complying with the Oregon-allowed method. Carflex mounted vertically is fine but it always loops up into the outdoor condensor unit. I've been back-and-forthing with my local inspector and he told me to write a letter to the state Chief Electrical Inspector and bitch him out.

If the romex thing gets rescinded I'm going to start using TC cable for interconnects.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

erics37 said:


> http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external.../20080725_08-03_NMB_Cable_Outdoor_Sleeves.pdf


Finally someone who is not a tard and has some common sense was hired by a building department :clap: :laughing:


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Here is the code section in question:
> 
> My contribution to the discussion is, is a PVC FS box outdoors considered a raceway? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can answer that because I don't know. Personally, I've used romex in that application a few times but I actively try to use UF cable instead.


As much as I hate to rely on my memory, I recall an article in one of the trade magazines where UL stated the inside of a 3R box is a dry location.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I agree that a box isn't a raceway, but if you think about it, what is the difference between conduit outside and the inside of a box. I remember some here saying they drill weep holes in the bottom of their boxes.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I go right in the back of a bell box and no one ever said it can't be done,What code article does it violate.?


Some inspectors call it a wet location. I have one that says if its flush mount its ok, but surface mount is considered wet.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Does 220/221 run uf cable into all of those outdoor panels he changes out all the time? (I am very jealous of those change outs by the way) I doubt it. What is the difference between those panels and a bell box?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Do you use wire nuts rated for wet locations in those situations?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Here is the code section in question:
> 
> 
> 
> My contribution to the discussion is, is a PVC FS box outdoors considered a raceway? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can answer that because I don't know. Personally, I've used romex in that application a few times but I actively try to use UF cable instead.


An enclosure is not a raceway. The section was specifically written to apply only to raceways. (I submitted the proposal)


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Tom45acp said:


> As much as I hate to rely on my memory, I recall an article in one of the trade magazines where UL stated the inside of a 3R box is a dry location.


If that is the case, why are 3R enclosures required to have drain holes?


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> If that is the case, why are 3R enclosures required to have drain holes?


So if the inside of a 3r enclosure is considered a wet location, then NM can't be inserted into the back of it when it's surface mounted on an exterior wall? As someone mentioned, all of hose outside panels would be a violation?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Tensil said:


> So if the inside of a 3r enclosure is considered a wet location, then NM can't be inserted into the back of it when it's surface mounted on an exterior wall? As someone mentioned, all of hose outside panels would be a violation?


No, because 300.9 only specifically mentions *raceways*. To that end, I offer this:



don_resqcapt19 said:


> An enclosure is not a raceway. The section was specifically written to apply only to raceways. (I submitted the proposal)


That's about as definitive as it gets :laughing:


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

erics37 said:


> No, because 300.9 only specifically mentions *raceways*. To that end, I offer this:
> 
> 
> 
> That's about as definitive as it gets :laughing:


I followed up to that point. But then Don said how 3R enclosures have drain holes, meaning they are a wet location, which NM can't be in whether it's a raceway or not. Or am I way off base here?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Tensil said:


> I followed up to that point. But then Don said how 3R enclosures have drain holes, meaning they are a wet location, which NM can't be in whether it's a raceway or not. Or am I way off base here?


I think the drain holes are to prevent it from being a wet location by letting the water out :laughing: I sure hope that a 3R enclosure with, say, a panelboard in it wouldn't be wet on the inside.


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

erics37 said:


> I think the drain holes are to prevent it from being a wet location by letting the water out :laughing: I sure hope that a 3R enclosure with, say, a panelboard in it wouldn't be wet on the inside.


I see. I thought it would still be considered a wet location.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I think the drain holes are to prevent it from being a wet location by letting the water out :laughing: I sure hope that a 3R enclosure with, say, a panelboard in it wouldn't be wet on the inside.


I brought that issue up with man that was on the CMP for article 240, he responded that there is no requirement for OCPDs to be in dry locations. :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Tensil said:


> I see. I thought it would still be considered a wet location.


Great sig, can you tattoo it on your forehead for me?


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Great sig, can you tattoo it on your forehead for me?


To be honest, what you said kinda hurt my feelings and is still bothering me. I guess putting it in my signature is a defense mechanism.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I brought that issue up with man that was on the CMP for article 240, he responded that there is no requirement for OCPDs to be in dry locations. :blink:


I see. So the interior of a 3R panel installed outdoors would be considered a wet location? Would romex in there be a violation then? Not a violation of 300.9, of course, because as mentioned the enclosure is not a raceway. But a violation of 334.12(B)(4) perhaps?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I see. So the interior of a 3R panel installed outdoors would be considered a wet location?


Let me start by saying I am thoroughly confused by this issue. 

Considering a raceway outside is a wet location, and 3R equipment has drain holes it sure seems like it is a wet location, at the least a damp one.



> Would romex in there be a violation then? Not a violation of 300.9, of course, because as mentioned the enclosure is not a raceway. But a violation of 334.12(B)(4) perhaps?[


It seems so but of course we all do it with outside disconnects etc. :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Tensil said:


> To be honest, what you said kinda hurt my feelings and is still bothering me. I guess putting it in my signature is a defense mechanism.


:lol:

Good one ...


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Let me start by saying I am thoroughly confused by this issue.
> 
> Considering a raceway outside is a wet location, and 3R equipment has drain holes it sure seems like it is a wet location, at the least a damp one.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

Well my solution will just be "F**k it."


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Well my solution will just be "F**k it."


:thumbsup:

Until I am forced into caring about it I will continue doing what I always have.


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## MeAgain (May 5, 2013)

erics37 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Well my solution will just be "F**k it."


That's my solution to almost anything. Electrical or otherwise.


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

BBQ said:


> It seems so but of course we all do it with outside disconnects etc. :blink:


Yes, and in my understanding it's not code complaint to do that. That's why I started the thread, to see if anyone ever actually got failed for it.

Now that I am getting pesky inspections, I might have to switch to using UF


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

CooperElec said:


> Has anyone ever been failed for bringing romex into the back of a PVC outdoor box surface mounted outside on the siding?
> 
> I know people say it's against code and it's a big debate, but what is your real world experience?


hell no. do they expect you to run your romex to a jbox on the inside, pipe through the wall and use THHN to your external box? thats tarded.


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

TOOL_5150 said:


> hell no. do they expect you to run your romex to a jbox on the inside, pipe through the wall and use THHN to your external box? thats tarded.


Either that or UF.


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> hell no. do they expect you to run your romex to a jbox on the inside, pipe through the wall and use THHN to your external box? thats tarded.





Tensil said:


> Either that or UF.


I'll have to bring this up with my local inspector.
Pray I don't get assassinated when he starts enforcing it.

I guess the simple solution would be to not use meter main sub panels.


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## Tensil (May 8, 2013)

forgotflying said:


> I guess the simple solution would be to not use meter main sub panels.


I've never used one.

The question was about surface mounted boxes outside, like typical bell boxes. AC discos apply as well.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

As we drift slightly away from the OP.....

Cnsider a dry type transformer..what makes a typical dry type transformer a 3R rated transformer?


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

Around here we always ran romex outside. Screwed in a romex connector and broke it off flush with the box (Basically a field made chase nipple). Guy who I learned resi from has yet to be called on this and he's been in the trade since '85.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

youngapprentice said:


> ive gone into the back of an fsc box with a two screw connector and just caulked the **** out of it and i dont see nothing wrong with it. itll just suck for the next guy who has to take the caulk off it haha.


Thats what duct seal is for. I honestly don't see a problem with it either.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Thats what duct seal is for. I honestly don't see a problem with it either.


For what it is worth duct seal is not intended for outdoor use. 

Yeah I know it has been used a lot for that but now inspectors are sharper on things like that.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> For what it is worth duct seal is not intended for outdoor use


Shouldn't really be intended for any use, **** sucks.


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

BBQ said:


> For what it is worth duct seal is not intended for outdoor use.
> 
> Yeah I know it has been used a lot for that but now inspectors are sharper on things like that.


I'm kind of surprised by that. Even those seu sill plates come with duct seal.



Jlarson said:


> Shouldn't really be intended for any use, **** sucks.



Everyone that I know uses it and I've never had a problem with it, personally.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> I'm kind of surprised by that. Even those seu sill plates come with duct seal.


Interesting point.

I used to use it a lot but now feel more like jlarson about it.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Our local inspectors haven't picked up on this yet but the state commercial inspector brought this up in a meeting. I've started running UF to recepts and lights mounted on the outside of a building.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> I used to use it a lot but now feel more like jlarson about it.


You know how much of that garbage I've had to clean out of lift station, septic, and well pit conduits? You can't just make that crap go away with carb cleaner like you can with foam.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> Our local inspectors haven't picked up on this yet


I bet they are too wasted. :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> You know how much of that garbage I've had to clean out of lift station, septic, and well pit conduits?


Ah buddy, that ain't duct seal, but if it makes you feel better to think so. :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I bet they are too wasted. :whistling2:


You've been selling them produce from your little horticulture project??


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Ah buddy, that ain't duct seal, but if it makes you feel better to think so.


:laughing: :laughing:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

wendon said:


> Our local inspectors haven't picked up on this yet but the state commercial inspector brought this up in a meeting. I've started running UF to recepts and lights mounted on the outside of a building.


Are you using weatherproof wirenuts as well? Don't half ass it.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

drspec said:


> Are you using weatherproof wirenuts as well? Don't half ass it.


They're not direct buried fixtures!!! NM isn't rated for wet location. If it was up to me I'd disagree that running an NM thru a chase into a bell box is a wet location.:no:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wendon said:


> Our local inspectors haven't picked up on this yet but the state commercial inspector brought this up in a meeting. I've started running UF to recepts and lights mounted on the outside of a building.


 I dunno. I mean by that logic, every single exterior panelboard in this country is crammed full of Romex use violations.

And to clarify, I understand it's not your call, I just don't think the code adequately addresses it.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

They actually covered this in a code class I took last month and the conclusion they came to, it was not considered a wet location, so NM was allowed.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

drspec said:


> They actually covered this in a code class I took last month and the conclusion they came to, it was not considered a wet location, so NM was allowed.


 What was the logic? Someone on here posted this same question not that long ago, and I gave it a bit of thought but couldn't answer it. Seems like a damp location to me.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Big John said:


> I dunno. I mean by that logic, every single exterior panelboard in this country is crammed full of Romex use violations.


I think you're right!! What are you supposed to do, junction all the wires inside the house or just wire the whole house with UF ???!!!:no::no:
Who decides what a wet location is?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Big John said:


> What was the logic? Someone on here posted this same question not that long ago, and I gave it a bit of thought but couldn't answer it. Seems like a damp location to me.


I don't think they ever gave a clear explanation as to why, but concluded it was compliant to use NM and standard wire nuts. (It was the end of a VERY long and boring 8 hour day, so I wasn't paying too close attention at that point)

it would seem that any exterior light or receptacle would be considered a damp location since the interior of conduit is. 

coach lights, flood lights, receptacles, any j box, etc....let's not give the code making panel any ideas.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

While we're at it, we'll need all new siding blocks to accept weatherproof boxes and lets use some uf connectors too.


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