# Confusing Lithonia Acuity LED spec change, unethical or what?



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lithonia's 4' x 1' contractor select went through significant specification change in the last 18 months with the latter having substantially favorable specs. 

They chose everything the same down to the UPC, which makes it impossible to distinguish old production lot from the new one. 

If they had labeled the newer revision -II and changed the UPC, it would help keep them as two separate products to prevent the old ones from being sold under the impression of delivering the same performance as the newest published datasheet. 

What is you guys take on this? The difference is HUGE... all under one UPC. 

The old one is 4000 lm 50W and 50,000 hrs to 30% decay 
New version is 4600 lm 41W and 60,000 hrs to 10% decay


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The entire LED industry is based on lies and scams with regard to longevity and light output, so what else is new?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MTW said:


> The entire LED industry is based on lies and scams with regard to longevity and light output, so what else is new?


I now have hard data that Lithonia pulled this off  this is what's new.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

MTW said:


> The entire LED industry is based on lies and scams with regard to longevity and light output, so what else is new?


what he said


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

I could not attach the spec sheets here due to file size limits, but I have uploaded both the December 2013 and May 2015 revisions here if you wish to inspect them yourself: 

Lithonia Lighting LBL LED Wrap around
2013:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=23527463501477090412

2015:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=28592121626570975125


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

they haven't been able to wipe their a$$ straight since they moved factories to Mexico. All I can say it they are men of their word when they say they are going to pay you to rewire fixtures they sent you that were wired wrong at the factory, I have to give them credit for that. I think they are a decent company, and are just struggling to survive in the global (Chinese) market.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

wildleg said:


> they haven't been able to wipe their a$$ straight since they moved factories to Mexico. All I can say it they are men of their word when they say they are going to pay you to rewire fixtures they sent you that were wired wrong at the factory, I have to give them credit for that. I think they are a decent company, and are just struggling to survive in the global (Chinese) market.


If they're wired wrong and immediately fail to work correctly, it will get noticed, but with the sneaky spec change, it will be very difficult to catch lower spec older products getting installed.

The performance difference is far more than RE80 vs RE70 lamps, yet if RE70 lamps were misprinted as "835", it is not something that will get noticed in the field. 

Specification non-conformance has always plagued LEDs and proving it requires a lab test. While it is not explicitly lying to change specs, not changing model # to reflect change makes it easy for older, poorer performing products to slip through unnoticed which is not in favor of the customer at all. 

Certainly, nobody wants to pay a lot more for fixtures that perform worse than F32T8 wrap around in ever way.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> The entire LED industry is based on lies and scams with regard to longevity and light output, so what else is new?





Electric_Light said:


> I now have hard data that Lithonia pulled this off  this is what's new.


I disagree 100% and I think those comments are outlandishly off the wall unsubstantiated for this one reason: LEDs have not yet been mandated by the NEC. :laughing::jester::whistling2: 


In that regard I stick with these (notice the life expectancy):


http://lightbulb.aerolights.com/vie...ries-light-bulbs-made-in-the-usa-20-000-hours?


http://www.amazon.com/Feit-Electric-60A-25K-Household/dp/B000I1ACSQ

http://normanlamps.com/incandescent...a19-light-bulbs/a19-rough-service/100ars.html


http://www.satco.com/s2992.html

(12,500 hours @ 120 volts)

http://www.eiko.com/Products.aspx?CatID=60&ProductIndex=100A/RS



Minus the decade brand which is now discontinued for not being rough service , all those bulbs last between 8,000 to 20,000 hours having a brass no seize socket, glare free frosted coating, bullet proof 5 to 7 support filament, base cement that doesn't fail, along with no surprise explosions, fires, no premature burn outs, zero mercury, cheap and dimmable. 

Those are light bulbs, the rest serves other purposes besides home lighting.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

meadow said:


> In that regard I stick with these (notice the life expectancy):


100W A19: 1,000 lumens.
A standard 100W bulb is close to 1,700 lumens. They don't to hide it under the same model number as regular light bulb and try to pretend it's just as bright or anything like that :whistling2:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> 100W A19: 1,000 lumens.
> A standard 100W bulb is close to 1,700 lumens. They don't to hide it under the same model number as regular light bulb and try to pretend it's just as bright or anything like that :whistling2:


Doesn't bother or stop me from using them


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

MTW said:


> The entire lighting industry is based on lies and scams with regard to longevity and light output, so what else is new?


Fify...


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Electric_Light said:


> What is you guys take on this?


Maybe ask the supplier when you buy them, to get the new version?

I doubt this is some corporate conspiracy to shed inventory.

Have you bought this light, could be a typo for all I know.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Get over yourself. Lithonia is a high volume, mass producing, budget priced metal stamper. You get what you pay for. None of us in the real contracting world have high expectations from a brand like Lithonia. We buy 'em, throw 'em in and hope for the best. If you want integrity, quality and dependable photometry, you're not going to get it from Lithonia or any other price point manufacturer for that matter.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Get over yourself. Lithonia is a high volume, mass producing, budget priced metal stamper. You get what you pay for. None of us in the real contracting world have high expectations from a brand like Lithonia. We buy 'em, throw 'em in and hope for the best. If you want integrity, quality and dependable photometry, you're not going to get it from Lithonia or any other price point manufacturer for that matter.


Which is the best for LEDs? I get asked that a lot because people are catching on the Chinese version fail after few thousand hours.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I really don't know, meadow, since any LED job I have done has either been customer supplied or specified. Until the smoke clears, I'm okay with that.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Electric_Light said:


> Lithonia's 4' x 1' contractor select went through significant specification change in the last 18 months with the latter having substantially favorable specs.
> 
> They chose everything the same down to the UPC, which makes it impossible to distinguish old production lot from the new one.
> 
> ...


 It sounds to me like Lithonia beat you on a job and now your azz hurts. Sorry, dude, that's the lighting biz. As long as the engineer says it's okay, the contractor is free to hang it. Next time you can bust Lithonia's ballz. That's how it works.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

99cents said:


> It sounds to me like Lithonia beat you on a job and now your azz hurts. Sorry, dude, that's the lighting biz. As long as the engineer says it's okay, the contractor is free to hang it. Next time you can bust Lithonia's ballz. That's how it works.


If you order a 5000K and they ship a 3000K, it will be easy to catch, because the UPC and model are *DIFFERENT* and if you're paying attention, you will catch it before any of them gets installed. 

Next time, we all just need to be a bit more cautious when dealing with LEDs. 

Say...
....The data shows specs subject to change. I know that LEDs are constantly evolving and I just wanted to confirm that, are the specs you presented to me the latest version, or the one applicable to the shipment I will receive?...

Make it know you're serious about specification non compliance. Enclose the spec sheet you were given by the salesman with your order and ask to have a copy of specification applicable to the shipment accompany the shipment.

In this example, the old ones fall short of T8 fluorescent in performance. So they dump the old revision on you and customer consents to having the substandard ones installed, a reasonable adjustment is a 75% discount (Given the WORSE performance than T8, its a reasonable expectation that they be discounted below what a T8 would cost...). If the customer says nay, well they be shipping the proper ones, then hauling the obsolete units back at their expense.

There aren't many electrical products with such a widely varying specs sharing the same UPC. This is a special consideration unique to LEDs given how quickly specs are changing even when the model number and UPC stays static.



99cents said:


> I really don't know, meadow, since any LED job I have done has either been customer supplied or *specified*. Until the smoke clears, I'm okay with that.


This thread is just as relevant to customers. Hopefully, they'll be more precise in specifying in writing in the key specs along with the model # to protect themselves. If the customer does specify the model, UPC *AND* the relevant specs, like "4564 lumen 41W L90/60K" and the 4000 lm 50W L70/50K version gets installed... they're getting ripped out and redone... If you were responsible for sourcing them... then payment gets withheld until proper completion depending.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> If they're wired wrong and immediately fail to work correctly, it will get noticed, but with the sneaky spec change, it will be very difficult to catch lower spec older products getting installed.
> 
> The performance difference is far more than RE80 vs RE70 lamps, yet if RE70 lamps were misprinted as "835", it is not something that will get noticed in the field.
> 
> ...


 Playing devil's advocate here, maybe the original specs were wrong and they are correcting it?????

I hate LED's anyway and I hate the government getting involved in what was obviously a scam to the highest degree starting the banning of bulbs.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

LARMGUY said:


> Playing devil's advocate here, maybe the original specs were wrong and they are correcting it?????


On every model? 
I doubt it. Back in 2013, 30% degradation allowance at rated life was the norm.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

*The sales tempo of these items is so massive...*

That you will not find ANY of the old performance fixtures in the Lithonia distribution network.

Unlike American manufacturers of a generation ago -- EVERYONE has adopted Just In Time inventory policy.

Square D, Cutler-Hammer, GE, on over REALLY are building Service boxes to specific order. Every dang unit going out the door was PRE-SOLD to a customer.

This is just as true for the Lighting crowd. Lithonia -- and its peers -- have largely shut down their warehouses. 

So there was never a prospect of Lithonia -- or any of the other NEMA players slipping you an inferior to spec item. 

With the Just In Time philosophy - THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

If you knew the inside skinny, you'd realize that the spec sheets weren't updated until the old product was blown out the door -- LONG AGO. That's how fast ALL of the NEMA players turn over their 'inventory.'

{ Just an expression: in modern American manufacturing products are SHIPPED not warehoused. The eternal goal is to have ZERO finished product inventory. )

This can't quite be pulled off in every line ( THWN-2, XHHW, etc.) but most assembled products -- yeah -- they go straight onto a delivery truck.

Ditto for electrical distributors. Have you not noticed that it's as common as dust for your local supplier to pull inventory from out of state -- some master national warehouse?

The fact that the product spec is RISING in quality and performance -- while still being brutally competitive -- deserves kudos.:thumbup:

BTW, FYI many Asian imports are being flown all the way in. LEDs are so light that I'd expect that this is done. 

It's gotten to the point that Walmart commissioned the worlds largest, fastest, containerships... a whole fleet. Now get this: they are spec'd to sail at 32 knots CRUISING SPEED. That's DOUBLE the normal speed for even fast containership operations.

The intent is to compete with air cargo! 

And all of this expense -- so as to NOT have stuff sitting in a warehouse.:laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm still not sure why you have this immense axe to grind over LED lighting. It's a work in progress. Like any other technology, it will settle out over time. To blow your wad right now is a waste of energy. I'm willing to wait until the industry develops more history and clarity.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

All I know is that 4 foot 2 light LED wrap is the bomb. Great light and more light than the 2 light T-8. $120 is a steal.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> All I know is that 4 foot 2 light LED wrap is the bomb. Great light and more light than the 2 light T-8. $120 is a steal.


Easier to hang, no lamps to worry about. Fast install  .

Plus, you know those ugly Home Creepo incandescent resi fixtures with a slab of R40 insulation in them? A thing of the past with LED. Thank god. I hate those things.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> All I know is that 4 foot 2 light LED wrap is the bomb. Great light and *more light than the 2 light T-8*. $120 is a steal.


They're not all the same. So, your comment could be true for one T8 fixture vs one LED 2 light 4 foot wrap, but do not say much in general. 

I will compare based on T8 stuff you can buy TODAY against LEDs you can buy today also. Either will likely outperform the existing installs from ~10 years more ago.

Using this common T8 wrap which has a 92.1% light utilization: 
http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=40829

Super T8 fluorescent lamp: 48" 28W rated at 2,650LM 
Philips ICN-2P32-N driving lamps at 0.90 @ 47W (277v) 

Delivered light: 4,390 LM and maintains 4,170 LM after 50,000+ hrs, which means 95% lumen maintenance. CRI 82-85 Does *not* raise power to compensate for lamp degradation. 
Delivered efficacy: 93.5 LPW. 
Cost: $75 or so including super long life T8 lamps at $6-7/ea. 

If you were using two tandem fixtures with one 4 lamp ballast, you have a slight advantage and get 96.3 LPW.

(engineers: for verification, use these common parts: 

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Philips/P-6049-E 2XL EA T8 28W bulletin_v1_web.pdf
Cost: $6.25/ea @ HD supply 

http://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/Philips-ICN2P32N-Spec-Sheet.pdf
) 

LED version of the nearly identical fixture pictured in the screen shot shown here is 50W input with 4,000 LM initial and 2,800 LM @ 50,000 hrs. If this is the version, it's out of consideration. You will need 50% more fixtures to maintain the same output as T8 fluorescent due to very high LED decay factor. (2,800 vs 4,170 lm of T8 ) 

The new version of Acuity Brands Lithonia Lighting LED is rated 41W, 4564 LM new and 4,107 LM at 60,000 hrs. This one is a very close match to 28W HPT8, but the price per fixture is at least double that of 2x28W HPT8 fixture. I do not know if the 90% maintenance at 60,000 hrs is achieved by LED degradation offset system at the expense of increasing power consumption with age.

Does 6W (13%) reduction per fixture justify more than double the price to select LED over Super T8? I am making a big assumption here that LED driver does not rely on active degradation compensation to keep up the L90 specs as this would take a hit on input power. 

About light quality: The choice of light color is something that is available for fluorescent as well as LEDs and the selection of appropriate CCT influences feedback. Satisfaction from changing 4100K fluorescent changed to 3000K LED is not attributed to LEDs, because replacing the existing lamps with 3000K lamps would have accomplished a similar feedback. 

4100K has the stigma as "the fluorescent light" as that was the most common fluorescent lamp for decades. 

The output depends on the lamp type and ballast BF used. 
Fixture efficiency used is 92.1% per datasheet. 

Delivered output: 
5,082 LM with 32W HPT8 3,100 rated lamps 56W input 
6,852 LM if you use QHE2x32T8 ISH 1.20 BF ~75W input

Modern 28W and 25W lamps are available in 70,000 life rating on instant start 12 hour/start and service life is roughly 70-80% of rated life. This is because rated life means time to 50% failure. This puts useful life to 49 to 56K hours, consistent with that of LEDs. 

Delivered light: 4,390 LM and maintains 4,170 LM after 50,000+ hrs.
This factors in fixture reflector loss. Electrical input of 45-47W. This establishes the baseline LEDs should exceed. 

If it doesn't meet or exceed the performance of fluorescent system, LEDs are not justified unless it is for special low ambient use. 

There are many LED products out there with LOWER performance and HIGHER price than comparable T8 systems. Lithonia LED 50W 4,000LM wrap is one such example. The newest 41W 4,564 is a match as long as the degradation compensation don't grow the input wattage and the price is dropped to match the T8.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My brain hurts.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

99cents said:


> My brain hurts.


I know, I know. 

LEDs are strongly pushed by sales force and there is a lot of misinformation about them. Some even passed around by manufacturers. "Great light and more light than the 2 light T-8. $120 is a steal." that someone said is a common incorrect beliefs due to incorrect beliefs from exposures to misleading materials. 

When you're presented with options like this which would you buy? 

Option 1:$140 
uses 50W. 4,000 lm output degrading to 2,800 lm slowly over 50,000 hrs. Provides full output at low ambient temperature, ideal for unconditioned utility corridors and refrigerated storage area. 

Option 2: $70 
uses 47W. 4,350 lm output degrading to 4,170 lm over useful life. Expected service life of 48,000 hrs. (unsuitable for use under 60F) 

Option 3: $70 
Same as #2, different lamps. 56W 5,080 lm. 4,900+ lm maintained over 25,000 hr service life. Reliable starting to -10F. 

#1 is LED
#2 is Super T8 28W for indoor use 
#3 is full wattage Super T8

There are not very many side by side comparisons like mine. Fluorescent literature don't talk about LEDs and LED brochures are designed to make it look like they save "a lot of energy" in reference to existing, aging, luminaires already in place, but not in reference to currently available fluorescent fixtures. 

Option 1 works satisfactory where option 2 works like locker rooms, hallways etc but you just spent twice the money for nothing. LED sales often compare Initial lumens against design lumens for 700 series T8 lamps running on an old ballast running 60W per pair in a low optical efficiency fixture to encourage this kind of unwise spending. #2 is the best value for conditioned spaces. #3 is the brightest and though it takes a couple minutes, it will reach full brightness in chilly rooms.


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