# Going from 220volt to 480.. Is it Cheaper?



## captkirk

Your friend is wrong. You dont get billed for what voltage you are using, you get billed for power or watts. A 100 watt bulb at 120 uses the same "POWER" as a 100 watt bulb at 480. And if anything, if you do what your friend says you will probably wind up paying more money due to losses from the transformer.......
I find it funny that there are many electricians that think this.....

Holy crap I got to answer a question first........yeaeee


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## TOOL_5150

False

Stepping up voltage helps with using less current - making it able to use smaller wire.

Unless you are installing a new wiring system for the lights, and its in a huge warehouse - stepping up voltage does nothing for you.

In the end, the total wattage being used will be the same.

~Matt


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## knowshorts

If your concerned about saving money, look into tax credits and utility rebates to replace those fixtures with fluorescent type. There is only one application that I can see using HID over fluorescent, and if that is the case, then that's just part of the cost of operating a grow farm.


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## BuzzKill

stepping up voltage like that will help with sensitive voltage drop situations


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## RIVETER

captkirk said:


> Your friend is wrong. You dont get billed for what voltage you are using, you get billed for power or watts. A 100 watt bulb at 120 uses the same "POWER" as a 100 watt bulb at 480. And if anything, if you do what your friend says you will probably wind up paying more money due to losses from the transformer.......
> I find it funny that there are many electricians that think this.....
> 
> Holy crap I got to answer a question first........yeaeee


I have talked to apprentices who have said that their instructors tell them that if they wired their homes all for 220 volts that they would save on usage. AND, congratulations on answering first.


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## Lighting Retro

now maybe he should have phrased the question whether or not he should run new wiring and run the fixtures off of the higher voltage vs step up transformer. The fixtures at that point draw less amps, so then what? 

Let's really confuse him. 

There is a reason 480V fixtures exist


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## Bob Badger

Lighting Retro said:


> now maybe he should have phrased the question whether or not he should run new wiring and run the fixtures off of the higher voltage vs step up transformer. The fixtures at that point draw less amps, so then what?
> 
> Let's really confuse him.
> 
> There is a reason 480V fixtures exist


Guy, I know my stuff and you are confusing me.:blink:


Bottom line is when 20 - 1000 watt fixtures are all on together they will always consume at least 20,000 watts or 20 Kwh per hour.

If you use a step up transformer you will use _more_ power not less as you will be paying for all the losses in the transformer.


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## Lighting Retro

mission accomplished! :thumbup:

i think this is where some folks/teachers mix things up. 

In it's simplest form: *Watts = Volts x Amps

(1000W fixtures) x 20 = 20,000 Watts

At 120V, the amp draw is:

20,000=120x (x=amps)
x=20,000/120
x=166 amps

At 277V, the amp draw is:

20,000=277x
x=20,000/277
x=72 amps

At 480V, the amp draw is:

20,000=480x
x=20,000/480
x=41.6 amps

If you mix a guy in who doesn't understand how the billing works, he could very easily say, "See, you are drawing less amps, therefore you will pay less." But like you say, bills are by KWh, not amps. 

Now you might need a few less circuits, less labor to install, etc, but it doesn't impact the bill. 480V fixtures are also always more since they don't produce near as many. (Even multi tap ballasts are usually more than dedicated voltage)

Now if I just had a power correction device, then I could really save some money..... :thumbsup: 
*


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## RIVETER

I have heard that they are a waste of money.:jester:


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## The Lightman

For accuracy sakes, please add 1600 watts to the above calculations. From the Sylvania Catalog:
1000W Metal Halide Lamp - ANSI Code M47 47427 M1000/SUPER5-KIT 120/208/ CWA Input Power *(Watts)1080*


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## Lighting Retro

You are correct. I even have some charts that show 1100 watts. I suppose it depends on the generation of product. (But it was just for general purposes anyways)

I do think that people get confused on the amp draw vs watts measurements.


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## Bob Badger

Lighting Retro said:


> mission accomplished! :thumbup:
> 
> i think this is where some folks/teachers mix things up.
> 
> In it's simplest form: *Watts = Volts x Amps
> 
> (1000W fixtures) x 20 = 20,000 Watts
> 
> At 120V, the amp draw is:
> 
> 20,000=120x (x=amps)
> x=20,000/120
> x=166 amps
> 
> At 277V, the amp draw is:
> 
> 20,000=277x
> x=20,000/277
> x=72 amps
> 
> At 480V, the amp draw is:
> 
> 20,000=480x
> x=20,000/480
> x=41.6 amps
> 
> If you mix a guy in who doesn't understand how the billing works, he could very easily say, "See, you are drawing less amps, therefore you will pay less." But like you say, bills are by KWh, not amps.
> 
> Now you might need a few less circuits, less labor to install, etc, but it doesn't impact the bill. 480V fixtures are also always more since they don't produce near as many. (Even multi tap ballasts are usually more than dedicated voltage)
> 
> Now if I just had a power correction device, then I could really save some money..... :thumbsup:
> *


Man, talk about making the simple complicated. :laughing:

Here is the easy way, we are charged by watts not amps. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

The Lightman said:


> For accuracy sakes, please add 1600 watts to the above calculations. From the Sylvania Catalog:
> 1000W Metal Halide Lamp - ANSI Code M47 47427 M1000/SUPER5-KIT 120/208/ CWA Input Power *(Watts)1080*


Pretty much why I had said ....




> Bottom line is when 20 - 1000 watt fixtures are all on together they will always consume *at least* 20,000 watts or 20 Kwh per hour.


I think most of us know there are ballast losses, or we should as the NEC requires we include them in any calculations. :thumbsup:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> Man, talk about making the simple complicated. :laughing:
> 
> Here is the easy way, we are charged by watts not amps. :thumbsup:


Bob... what is the *going rate* for those watts by you.. :whistling2:


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## Lighting Retro

Bob Badger said:


> *Man, talk about making the simple complicated.* :laughing:
> 
> Here is the easy way, we are charged by watts not amps. :thumbsup:


it's a gift :laughing:


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> Bob... what is the *going rate* for those watts by you.. :whistling2:


There is none, it varies greatly from area to area. 

I happen to live in a town with a municipal non-profit power company and pay low rates for great service. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

Lighting Retro said:


> it's a gift :laughing:



Fair enough. :laughing::laughing:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> There is none, it varies greatly from area to area.
> 
> I happen to live in a town with a municipal non-profit power company and pay low rates for great service. :thumbsup:


Mine is around $.20 KWH, but we get free "H" taps for service changes.

LIPA used to give us postage paid envelopes, but the perk was dis- continued 

I really miss saving that $.39 cents every month :laughing:


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## The Lightman

Of course I know that you know these calcs, Bob. 
According to the Department of Energy figures, the U.S. average commercial cost per kWh of electric energy to commercial end-users was 10.7 cents as of March 2009, up 4.7% from the same period in 2008.
Therefore, when doing an ROI payback if they are burning 24/7 365 even @.11/KWX20X80 we were missing $1542/year.


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## 10492

Actually, if you were able to get the POCO to supply you with 480V, it would be cheaper to run the lights at 480V, than 220V.

Care to guess how?


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## Bob Badger

Dnkldorf said:


> Actually, if you were able to get the POCO to supply you with 480V, it would be cheaper to run the lights at 480V, than 220V.
> 
> Care to guess how?


Do tell.


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## The Lightman

your couch


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## 10492

Bob Badger said:


> Do tell.


However miniscule, IR loses would be less.:jester:


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## Bob Badger

The Lightman said:


> According to the Department of Energy figures, the U.S. average commercial cost per kWh of electric energy to commercial end-users was 10.7 cents as of March 2009, up 4.7% from the same period in 2008.
> Therefore, when doing an ROI payback if they are burning 24/7 365 even @.11/KWX20X80 we were missing $1542/year.


OK Commander Spock. :laughing:

Lets also mention that the increased load also wastes more money in voltage drop and and and .... :jester:



Just busting here, I know you are speaking facts. I just thing we are getting carried away with simple question. :jester:


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## Bob Badger

Dnkldorf said:


> However miniscule, IR loses would be less.:jester:



Increase the wire size and you can spin it the other way. :laughing:


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## 10492

Bob Badger said:


> Increase the wire size and you can spin it the other way. :laughing:


 
Change the fixtures and we can spin things all day long. Chuck in some rebates, and we might even be able to afford a case of beer a month.:thumbsup:


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## The Lightman

You are right, Bob


jman said:


> He states that if if I use a step up transformer that goes from 120volts to 480v, I will actually save on monthly electricity cost. Is this true?


NO!


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## nitro71

I'm not quite sure how you got 220 volts, maybe you split the difference between 208 and 240, LOL! There isn't a such a cat as 220 in the US. You probably have a 240 volt single phase system.


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## ampman

Dnkldorf said:


> However miniscule, IR loses would be less.:jester:


 power = amps squared times resistance


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## RIVETER

nitro71 said:


> I'm not quite sure how you got 220 volts, maybe you split the difference between 208 and 240, LOL! There isn't a such a cat as 220 in the US. You probably have a 240 volt single phase system.


Man, I am in trouble. I have been putting in 220 volt receptacles for a lot of years. I hope they still work.:jester:


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## Big John

nitro71 said:


> I'm not quite sure how you got 220 volts, maybe you split the difference between 208 and 240, LOL! There isn't a such a cat as 220 in the US....


I wonder if that will ever go away. Nominal voltages have been 120 and 240 for decades, but people still talk about 220.

Is it because it is easier to say? Is it because a lot of other countries actually use that voltage? Why the heck does that hang around? Seems like the only time I hear the "proper" voltage is when talking to electricians.

-John


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## nitro71

Big John said:


> I wonder if that will ever go away. Nominal voltages have been 120 and 240 for decades, but people still talk about 220.
> 
> Is it because it is easier to say? Is it because a lot of other countries actually use that voltage? Why the heck does that hang around? Seems like the only time I hear the "proper" voltage is when talking to electricians.
> 
> -John


Actually I hear it from electricians sometimes and it makes me uncomfortable. We should know better!


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## varmit

Gang,

Are we forgetting that 480 volt interior lighting is no longer allowed? See NEC 210.6(D).

As posted earlier, the only savings with operating lighting at a higher voltage is the installation costs: fewer circuits, possible smaller service, less breaker space, ect.


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## Bob Badger

varmit said:


> Gang,
> 
> Are we forgetting that 480 volt interior lighting is no longer allowed? See NEC 210.6(D).


210.6(D) does not prohibit 480 volt interior lighting.

That section applies to circuits that _exceed_ 277 volt to ground.


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## varmit

Bob Badger said:


> 210.6(D) does not prohibit 480 volt interior lighting.
> 
> That section applies to circuits that _exceed_ 277 volt to ground.


It would prohibit a non wye 480 system from suppling lighting.


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## Bob Badger

varmit said:


> It would prohibit a non wye 480 system from suppling lighting.


I agree. 

The work I do I rarely run into 480 delta but always have 480 Wye.


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