# Solve This Service Call



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's one I was at yesterday. 

What the HO told me on the phone: Breaker keeps tripping. What the HO informed me of when I get there: I was shown the breaker panel, and one 15a breaker was turned off. It powers two bedrooms, the bathroom, hallway, dining room and sunroom. House was built c. 1930. Panel was not original, but appeared to be 10-15 years old. She said it 'just trips for no reason.' Sometimes it will stay on for days, other times it will trip within minutes.

So let's solve this service call! What would be your first step, and why?

_Remember: you're not the only one who wants to tackle this, so don't expect me to respond immediately to every post. Let's let others have a crack at it, too. After all, this is a holiday weekend, and not everyone is online right now. And it's no fun if I give the solution 2 minutes after posting this._


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I know what I would do


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

I would unplug the curling iron in the bath and then unplug the hot tub in the sunroom. 

But seriously I would walk around the sunroom, look for an outside feed and hope there is newly disturbed landscaping. When that doesn't work I woukd start to divide and conquer and hope I get lucky before the day is over.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

How'd I get in this. Haha


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

Sell them a AFCI, then a whole house rewire (with more AFCI's).


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

tell them not to turn on everything on that circuit at the same time:jester:and then seperate the load buy whatever means


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Here's one I was at yesterday.
> 
> What the HO told me on the phone: Breaker keeps tripping. What the HO informed me of when I get there: I was shown the breaker panel, and one 15a breaker was turned off. It powers two bedrooms, the bathroom, hallway, dining room and sunroom. House was built c. 1930. Panel was not original, but appeared to be 10-15 years old. *She said it 'just trips for no reason.' Sometimes it will stay on for days, other times it will trip within minutes.*
> 
> ...


Trip within minutes of what? First step, get all the facts. Customers are notorious for trivial facts and misinformation.

Spend a few days with her. 

Borgi


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I would hire a guy from Cornpatch USA to solve the issue for me. 

The problem would be solved and both of us would walk away with a decent profit....Then, on to the next!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Go to all the rooms on that circuit and turn off all the loads.
Put my amp clamp on the circuit wire to the breaker. Have the HO turn on loads, one at a time, one room at a time.
Check current draw on each load before turning on the next.
If within tolerance, move on to next room.
Keep adding loads until you're over the limit or all loads are on.
If all loads are on and you're still not over, ask the HO to plug in that curling iron or hair dryer that she forgot to tell you about.
Or the vacuum cleaner that gets used while the other loads are on!:whistling2:

It's almost a given with that many rooms on a 15A breaker it is overloaded.
Especially since there is a bath on the circuit.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Here's one I was at yesterday.
> 
> What the HO told me on the phone: Breaker keeps tripping. What the HO informed me of when I get there: I was shown the breaker panel, and one 15a breaker was turned off. It powers two bedrooms, the bathroom, hallway, dining room and sunroom. House was built c. 1930. Panel was not original, but appeared to be 10-15 years old. She said it 'just trips for no reason.' Sometimes it will stay on for days, other times it will trip within minutes.
> 
> ...


you were bored and didnt want to make this a pol, right?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I would put 33+ on all the wirenuts and check if they were pretwisted, then I would change out all the stab in receps, and finally tell the HO that it was the aluminum oxide that tripped the AFCI.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'd ask her what time of day it trips most times.

Does it always trip when someone is home ?

then I'd look for the hair dryer, plug in heater, vacuum, outside lights (if it's at night that it trips), or other appliance that's tripping it. I guess in order to make my fee I'd look for other stuff that needed to be fixed while I was "troubleshooting", and pull off panel cover and amprobe to justify my fee and also look for upsells. Remember, I'm only saying this because that's what you are supposed to do to make money. Service calls aren't my thing (yet).


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The symptoms as explained to me at the beginning:

Sometimes the breaker would trip within minutes or even seconds of resetting, sometimes it would hold for days. There seemed to be no rhyme or reason. No one, single item that caused it (like plugging in a specific load or turning on a certain light). She commented that the family was having dinner at the dining room table and it just tripped. No changes in the load they had caused. The breaker had been replaced as well.

So when I noticed the breaker was _off _instead of _tripped_, I asked her if someone had actually turned it off. She said yes. I asked if anyone had been at the panel when it trips. She said a few times that happens. I asked if there was a loud buzzing sound when it does, or does it just trip?

Her response was, "Well, I can hear a slight buzzing sound when the breaker is on, but have never been able to find out what it was."

So I turned the breaker on, and I too could hear a _very faint_ buzzing. Maybe a locked up motor, or the transformer in the furnace. But it wasn't concentrated in one area. It seemed to be in the ceiling of half the basement. No buzzing could be heard on the main level or upstairs.





The purpose of this thread is to learn better TS techniques and tricks. As for all the naysayers that seem to think I'm using the thread to TS the issue for me, the problem was located. So if you don't have anything positive to add, please move along. There's nothing for you here.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

What type of breaker is it? AFCI? Did you find an authentic case of a series arc and the AFCI catching it?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Standard breaker. Not an AFCI or GFCI.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok, so we're narrowed down to something in the basement ceiling/first level floor. Sounds like a locked motor or a transformer but it's neither of those?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Pop out breaker and check busbar behind it for burning / damage along with same for breaker itself.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Sounds like she has an " Overload " and breaker trips when reset .

That is a hot breaker .

Don't forget to find that Old Florescent Ballast acting up now and again .





Pete


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Pop out breaker and check busbar behind it for burning / damage along with same for breaker itself.


He heard buzzing coming from the ceiling, not the panel.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

pete87 said:


> Sounds like she has an " Overload " and breaker trips when reset .
> 
> That is a hot breaker .
> 
> ...


What is causing the overload?


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Examine breaker and busbar, then close breaker and check amp draw


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

What kind of lights are in the basement?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

CFL said:


> What is causing the overload?





Old florescent Ballast ... I put that in an edit that did not take .





Pete


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

pete87 said:


> Old florescent Ballast ... I put that in an edit that did not take .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've been to the same house?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Did you megger it? I'm gonna say staple or nail driven too far... 

Although buzzing sounds like a loose or broken connection.

What did you find? It's hard to troubleshoot from my couch, can't see/hear anything, so total picture of situation feels limited.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

OP did not disclose all relevant facts in first post. Another tarded episode in a long novel.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> OP did not disclose all relevant facts in first post. Another tarded episode in a long novel.


Once again, just for our resident surfer:

*Remember: you're not the only one who wants to tackle this, so don't expect me to respond immediately to every post. Let's let others have a crack at it, too. After all, this is a holiday weekend, and not everyone is online right now. And it's no fun if I give the solution 2 minutes after posting this.*


In case you're too busy being an electrician and can't take time out from surfing, I'll repeat it just for you:

*If you don't have anything positive to add, please move along. There's nothing for you here. You may now go back to installing your oversized boxes for range receptacles.
*


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Someone forgot to take out the hot to neutral jumper at a receptacle!:laughing:

So the buzzing is not at the breaker, but in the ceiling?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Without any more clues I don't think it's possible to solve. We could be guessing for hours. I give up, unless you have more clues.

I hope this is good, and I hope you don't embellish just to get a better payoff.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

At this point, I would disconnect the circuit, as close as I could, just before the buzzing in the basement ceiling. Then try to reset the breaker. If it held, I'd know the fault/problem is after the point I disconnected. 

Then I'd split the disconnected section in half, and disconnect it again. 

Reconnect the spot before the basement buzz, and see what happens.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, here was my next step:

I traced the circuit up into a ¾" EMT that ran across the basement ceiling. It went through to boxes, then terminated in a 3rd box as part of a MWBC with an adjacent circuit. It was terminated to a old 3-wire NM original to the house where the service used to be. From there, it went up into the first floor.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_hmmmmmm_....:blink:

ceiling buzz? .....old MWBC? .... emt on ceiling?

i'll wager they've all something in common!

~CS~


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

It was attached to a vibrator someone stashed in the ceiling? Or it was an electrified fence pre-nazi Germany... Uh... I... Uhhh... I don't know what to guess anymore man. Now it's in conduit and I probably wouldn't have guessed that, probably could have found it, never would've guessed though without being there.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, here was my next step:
> 
> I traced the circuit up into a ¾" EMT that ran across the basement ceiling. It went through to boxes, then terminated in a 3rd box as part of a MWBC with an adjacent circuit. It was terminated to a old 3-wire NM original to the house where the service used to be. From there, it went up into the first floor.


Was there a ground (EGC) in that old 3-wire. Some folks call hot-neutral-ground a 3-wire, others don't count the ground as you shouldn't if it's 12-2, 12-3, 14-2, 14-3, etc.

Here's my second attempt at a solution. Since you mentioned conduit, I'm going with no EGC or a bad connection if there was one. Or maybe they were using the EMT as part of the EGC. The buzzing is a ground fault, probably in the conduit and only trips when it happens to make a good enough connection to make it back to the panel.

What did I win?


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

It needs a 1" conduit. The electricity will flow better and won't buzz. 


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

This thread is over 6 years old 
















Or maybe it just seems like it


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> OK, here was my next step:
> 
> I traced the circuit up into a ¾" EMT that ran across the basement ceiling. It went through to boxes, then terminated in a 3rd box as part of a MWBC with an adjacent circuit. It was terminated to a old 3-wire NM original to the house where the service used to be. From there, it went up into the first floor.


well you spilled the beans with that post. most guys know what "buzzing" + emt means


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

Was the emt traced from the new panel or was it from where the old service came in and was in the past connected to the old panel which I am guessing was next to the old service which allowed the emt to be a ground with a connection to the GEC via the panel so if that is the scenario and the panel was moved to a new location when the new service was installed then the emt lost its connection to the GEC because it is no longer grounded via the pipe to the new panel


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## Singlepole (May 2, 2012)

wildleg said:


> well you spilled the beans with that post. most guys know what "buzzing" + emt means


 mmmm I have been an Electrician for 30 years and have installed miles of EMT and far as I know the only time it buzzes is when there is a dead short and that lasts only a moment until the IR of the breaker is met. Now since I am from Canada I dont rightly understand your wire type acromyns but I sure am curiuos to know what the answer is here. 
My guess, maybe a doorbell transformer overheating, peeps seem to like to hide them little buggers up un ceilings.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ampman said:


> This thread is over 6 years old


Quality work takes time.....~CS~:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

For those of you interested in learning:

My next step was to disconnect the MWBC at the box where the THHN was spliced to the NM to see if the fault was in the EMT or in the original NM.

Doing so reduced to load to 0 amps at the breaker, and there was no more humming. This told me the fault was in the NM that was original to the house. I tried using a circuit tracer hooked up to the disconnected NM, but I got a signal just about everywhere in the house, even back in the panel on other circuits.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Step one in troubleshooting. Upsize conduits. Pull existing circuit back into new pipe . If that doesnt work i have no idea


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

480sparky said:


> For those of you interested in learning:
> 
> My next step was to disconnect the MWBC at the box where the THHN was spliced to the NM to see if the fault was in the EMT or in the original NM.
> 
> Doing so reduced to load to 0 amps at the breaker, and there was no more humming. This told me the fault was in the NM that was original to the house. I tried using a circuit tracer hooked up to the disconnected NM, but I got a signal just about everywhere in the house, even back in the panel on other circuits.


It sounds like the circuit was double fed ?


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

480sparky said:


> For those of you interested in learning:
> 
> My next step was to disconnect the MWBC at the box where the THHN was spliced to the NM to see if the fault was in the EMT or in the original NM.
> 
> Doing so reduced to load to 0 amps at the breaker, and there was no more humming. This told me the fault was in the NM that was original to the house. I tried using a circuit tracer hooked up to the disconnected NM, but I got a signal just about everywhere in the house, even back in the panel on other circuits.


Off topic: What type of circuit tracer?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pjholguin said:


> Off topic: What type of circuit tracer?


http://www.grainger.com/product/GREENLEE-Hidden-Cable-Locator-1UG79


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Probably had more than one shared neutral location since you detected it several places. Or maybe a "bootlegged" ground.

I think everyone has had a chance.

NOW SPILL IT 480!:jester:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Probably had more than one shared neutral location since you detected it several places. Or maybe a "bootlegged" ground.
> 
> I think everyone has had a chance.
> 
> NOW SPILL IT 480!:jester:


I agree.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

480sparky said:


> For those of you interested in learning:
> 
> My next step was to disconnect the MWBC at the box where the THHN was spliced to the NM to see if the fault was in the EMT or in the original NM.
> 
> Doing so reduced to load to 0 amps at the breaker, and there was no more humming. This told me the fault was in the NM that was original to the house. I tried using a circuit tracer hooked up to the disconnected NM, but I got a signal just about everywhere in the house, even back in the panel on other circuits.


Did you happen to notice when disconnecting which conductor(s) gave you the 0 amps?

Original NM continuation of the MWBC, 2 hots and a neutral no ground?

Can your signal tracer differentiate between conductors in the same cable? If so, any clue here?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> Did you happen to notice when disconnecting which conductor(s) gave you the 0 amps?
> 
> Original NM continuation of the MWBC, 2 hots and a neutral no ground?
> 
> Can your signal tracer differentiate between conductors in the same cable? If so, any clue here?


Usually, my tracer can. But in this case, I got a signal everywhere in the house. Somehow it was bleeding into all circuits even though it was disconnected at the last j-box in the EMT run.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

could it be your tracer is for 240-500v and you were looking for 120? or was that just a model #?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i also agree, TIME TO SPILL IT!:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If I spill it, I'll have to clean it up.

I'd much prefer you to THINK.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

My tracer shows me opens and shorts. It also latches when the circuit changes state so I can verify continuity. 

Disconnect both ends of the MC conductors and reference each one to ground and each to the outer cover.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*thiMk!*

So the house was rewired , and the last piece of _original _NM octopus was still energized.

Taken off @ the thhn JB @ the emt , _load=0, hum=0_....

But _which _conductor of the old NM MWBC actually faulted? Was it one of the hots, or the noodle?

In the case of the hots, something was obviously energized and drawing. In the case of the noodle it would be a parallel path. 

In either scenario, the OCPD did not reach it's trip potential , so there obviously exists some poor connection and/or incomplete path

The 'hum' being indicative of this. sympathetic resonance coming to mind....

~CS~


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So the house was rewired , and the last piece of _original _NM octopus was still energized.
> 
> Taken off @ the thhn JB @ the emt , _load=0, hum=0_....
> 
> ...


That's where I was going with my first question which was overlooked for some reason. :whistling2:

Remove a conductor, current goes to zero. Hook it back up and see if any other conductors give the same result.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So the house was rewired , and the last piece of _original _NM octopus was still energized.
> 
> Taken off @ the thhn JB @ the emt , _load=0, hum=0_....
> 
> ...


If the neutral was faulted, then _both_ circuits being on would cause the hum, no? Turning off one or the other would still create a hum.


Since my tracer wasn't helping, I fell back to the old 'divide and concquer' method. There were two receptacles in the wall right above where the old NM came up from the basement, but both of them only had one 2-wire NM in them.

The dining room light switch, however, was jam-packed with old NM.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bad ceiling fan or maybe even a bad hood fan in the kitchen if it is close.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Bad ceiling fan or maybe even a bad hood fan in the kitchen if it is close.




That Bad Fan is near the Bad Old Florescent .





Pete


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> If the neutral was faulted, then _both_ circuits being on would cause the hum, no? Turning off one or the other would still create a hum.
> 
> 
> Since my tracer wasn't helping, I fell back to the old 'divide and concquer' method. There were two receptacles in the wall right above where the old NM came up from the basement, but both of them only had one 2-wire NM in them.
> ...


You said you wanted everyone to have a chance over the Memorial day weekend.
Now what, you gonna stretch it out through the 4th of July holiday?:whistling2::jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> You said you wanted everyone to have a chance over the Memorial day weekend.
> Now what, you gonna stretch it out through the 4th of July holiday?:whistling2::jester:



Well, pretty much everyone is _guessing_ what the issue might be instead of actually _trying to *trace it down*_.

*That's the point*.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you dribble out information like a bad faucett. if you'd have put all the info down to start with, it would have been more interesting.

jmsio


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> you dribble out information like a bad faucett. if you'd have put all the info down to start with, it would have been more interesting.
> 
> jmsio



Well, I guess you figure out all your service calls when you ring the doorbell. Good for you!

Sorry, but the rest of us have to figure them out.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> > If the neutral was faulted, then _both_ circuits being on would cause the hum, no? Turning off one or the other would still create a hum.
> 
> 
> .


Mmmmaybe....if in fact that noodle was common from the mbj to multiple sources of _'return' _, then one could load it from any source, even one _next door_.....


~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Sorry, but the rest of us have to figure them out.


You're such a tease 480.....too bad you're male!










~C:jester:S~


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, pretty much everyone is _guessing_ what the issue might be instead of actually _trying to *trace it down*_.
> 
> *That's the point*.


You seem to think we were all there with you. Kinda hard to trace what you can't see and you're not giving us enough info to trace anything. You haven't conceded any correct guesses if there are any nor have you refuted any.

The buzzing/humming is most likely a ground fault that has too high resistance path back to the breaker. I already said that and think others have also. I also said there were probably more than one location for the shared neutral since it was spliced from NM to EMT and you found a box "crammed" full of NM.

I'm sure if you were sitting on "our" side of the fence you would have already solved it with the limited info given & moved on!:notworthy:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> You seem to think we were all there with you. Kinda hard to trace what you can't see and you're not giving us enough info to trace anything...........


I've already conceded my entire TS process up to a point.

The idea is to think, "What next?"


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd start disconnecting parts of the circuit ......~CS~


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Here's one I was at yesterday.
> 
> What the HO told me on the phone: Breaker keeps tripping. What the HO informed me of when I get there: I was shown the breaker panel, and one 15a breaker was turned off. It powers two bedrooms, the bathroom, hallway, dining room and sunroom. House was built c. 1930. Panel was not original, but appeared to be 10-15 years old. She said it 'just trips for no reason.' Sometimes it will stay on for days, other times it will trip within minutes.
> 
> ...




Sell this lady a whole house rewire .

She needs it .

Seriously , start with the Breaker and Bus check , then divide at a easy point and decide how far that new Breaker holds good . You either refeed that bad section or jump it . After 15 minutes I am on to a solution ... Are the recept. grounded ? Pig tailed ? Is there an outside light filling with water when it rains ?



Pete


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> I'd start disconnecting parts of the circuit ......~CS~


That's what I started to do. In the switch box, the circuit that trips had a splice of 3 conductors, plus a pigtail for the light switch. Since the light was off during my investigation up to this point, I could be reasonably sure the light wasn't the issue.


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## 6 shooter (Feb 4, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's what I started to do. In the switch box, the circuit that trips had a splice of 3 conductors, plus a pigtail for the light switch. Since the light was off during my investigation up to this point, I could be reasonably sure the light wasn't the issue.


I usually trouble shoot this way with a wiggy tester. disconnect conductors in a box reset circuit breaker then do tests from the source in the boxes un grounded conductor to the disconnect other ungrounded conductors. The one that has voltage from a hot to a hot is bad.

Keep going from box to box till you find it.
I don't know if that would work as well with the breaker intermittently tripping on this trouble shoot?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

6 shooter said:


> I usually trouble shoot this way with a wiggy tester. disconnect conductors in a box reset circuit breaker then do tests from the source in the boxes un grounded conductor to the disconnect other ungrounded conductors. The one that has voltage from a hot to a hot is bad.
> 
> Keep going from box to box till you find it.
> I don't know if that would work as well with the breaker intermittently tripping on this trouble shoot?


I pulled the splice apart and determined which one was the feed. I then hooked up one of the other wires, and had a measly 4 amps at the breaker. When I hooked up the other, I could actually _feel_ the wires vibrate. I checked the ammeter at the breaker.... 16.2.


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

LARMGUY said:


> My tracer shows me opens and shorts. It also latches when the circuit changes state so I can verify continuity.
> 
> Disconnect both ends of the MC conductors and reference each one to ground and each to the outer cover.


Off topic: What type of tracer?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I pulled the splice apart and determined which one was the feed. I then hooked up one of the other wires, and had a measly 4 amps at the breaker. * When I hooked up the other, *I could actually _feel_ the wires vibrate. I checked the ammeter at the breaker.... 16.2.


When you hooked up the "other".
Well what did the "other" go to?

I already said in post #9 to isolate the loads, one load at a time. then one room at a time until you see what's overloading it.

Either give us ALL the info or tell us what you found!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> When you hooked up the "other".
> Well what did the "other" go to?
> 
> I already said in post #9 to isolate the loads, one load at a time. then one room at a time until you see what's overloading it.
> ...


Apparently this concept escapes you, so I will attempt to explain. 

Maybe _some_ of you have a Miracle Meter model ABC123DoReMi that can scan the house and display the location and nature of the fault, but* for the rest of us*, we rarely have the luxury of rolling up on a service call and can identify the problem by the time we ring the doorbell. We must use our knowledge, training and background to systematically find the problem and correct it. 

Troubleshooting does not mean one gets ALL the information needed to locate and identify the problem when you cross the threshold of the door. It must be methodically collected. These bits and pieces must be utilized to envision possibilities, sort out scenarios and discount various options.

If you want to start isolating loads, that's exactly where we're at. Obviously, one must know WHERE to isolate the load as there may be many possible locations where this can be done. * FINDING that point is part of troubleshooting.* There can be no short-cuts. Yeah, you could just start randomly taking things apart, but doing so and being efficient would be pure dumb luck in attempting to narrow things down.

If I gave you ALL the information you demand, then what would be the point?


If you just want an answer, I suggest you try this thread.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

ok, so you found the branch that was overloaded. you followed it around the house, to the basement, into the attic, finally found the problem, fixed it.

now let's get to the good stuff:

how long did this call take ?
how much did you charge ?
was the homeowner pissed off at the bill ?
did you take a helper with you ? (why? /why not ?)
did you come up with a great troubleshooting technique that you would like to share that made that type of repair special ?
was the homeowner pleased ?
did she show you videos of her cat ?
did she invite you to stay for breakfast ?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> ok, so you found the branch that was overloaded. you followed it around the house, to the basement, into the attic, finally found the problem, fixed it.
> 
> now let's get to the good stuff:
> 
> ...



It was a two-story brick house.
It was not a corner lot.
It had asphalt shingles.
The lawn needed mowed, but I could excuse that due to all the rain we had gotten.
No special techniques... _just trying to teach those with less experience the basics_. Obviously, you're far past this so you can move along.
I showed up at 8:57:21.3 AM.
She had a dog, which she tied up outside.
It was a sunny day.
Is your Shift key broken?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

my laptop has a few missing keys. I told the great nieces that it had too many keys so I took a few off, but I don't think they were buying it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> my laptop has a few missing keys.  I told the great nieces that it had too many keys so I took a few off, but I don't think they were buying it.


Did you discover some new, special technique to deduce that out and you're going to share it with us?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think maybe you are developing a thin skin in your old age, or did you forgot to take your happy pill today ? Isn't this about the time of year we pay you to jump off a building or something ?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I pulled the splice apart and determined which one was the feed. I then hooked up one of the other wires, and had a measly 4 amps at the breaker. When I hooked up the other, I could actually _feel_ the wires vibrate. I checked the ammeter at the breaker.... 16.2.





480 , What was using 12.2 amps ? That is a decent size load for ressi .




Pete


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

pete87 said:


> 480 , What was using 12.2 amps ? That is a decent size load for ressi .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once I found the problem, it became a moot point.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> It was a two-story brick house.
> It was not a corner lot.
> It had asphalt shingles.
> The lawn needed mowed, but I could excuse that due to all the rain we had gotten.
> ...


So you showed up for your first job at 9:00 am. Good job right there. 
You haven't told us how long this took to find and repair. Many have asked this question.
As a Mod I would think you would make an effort to not talk down to new members and all, being you are trying to "teach" us all a bit more info would be great.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> So you showed up for your first job at 9:00 am. Good job right there.
> You haven't told us how long this took to find and repair. Many have asked this question.
> As a Mod I would think you would make an effort to not talk down to new members and all, being you are trying to "teach" us all a bit more info would be great.


Seems more just wanna _complain_ about the thread as opposed to participate.

How long it took me is not relevant.


And no, it wasn't my first job of the day. That's your assumption, which is incorrect.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

I'll bet Cletis is spoon feeding this information to 480 so he can live on. :thumbup: :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Here's one I was at yesterday.
> 
> What the HO told me on the phone: Breaker keeps tripping. What the HO informed me of when I get there: I was shown the breaker panel, and one 15a breaker was turned off. It powers two bedrooms, the bathroom, hallway, dining room and sunroom. House was built c. 1930. Panel was not original, but appeared to be 10-15 years old. She said it 'just trips for no reason.' Sometimes it will stay on for days, other times it will trip within minutes.
> 
> ...


Amp probe


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Seems more just wanna _complain_ about the thread as opposed to participate.
> 
> How long it took me is not relevant.


Seems you don't read well, many, including myself have given our thoughts. To which you haven't confirmed or denied.
I've asked question(s) with no answer.
How else are we supposed to participate.

You being there and us only reading what you tell us is a whole different ballgame.

Apparently a week after you said "wait through the holiday weekend" is not relevant either, as it's been a week now.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Seems you don't read well, many, including myself have given our thoughts. To which you haven't confirmed or denied.
> I've asked question(s) with no answer.
> How else are we supposed to participate.
> 
> ...


I sure hope that some of the animosity here will be alleviated by the time of the Annual Electrician Talk picnic this summer. It is always so much fun. I am making plans and have,,,just this evening discarded the date expired nitrile gloves I got from Harbor Freight.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> Seems you don't read well, many, including myself have given our thoughts. To which you haven't confirmed or denied.
> I've asked question(s) with no answer.
> How else are we supposed to participate.
> 
> ...



Well, let's take a look at the questions you_ have_ asked.



A Little Short said:


> ..............What did I win?


A: Nothing




A Little Short said:


> ............Well what did the "other" go to?..........


A: The answer is part of the TS routine. There weren't notes in the box attached to the wires saying, "This wire goes to _____ and this wire goes to ______". The point is:_ How do you determine where it does go?_* This is such an incredibly simple concept, *and one that experienced TSers do without thinking. 

Most responses have just been guesses and conjecture. That's not solving anything. It's an attempt at using just pure dumb luck. And that's the purpose of the thread: To bring out those steps that one must take in order to find the problem, for the benefit of those wishing to improve their TS skills. 

Without learning and developing these steps and the reasoning behind them, ALL service calls can be reduced to, "Find the problem and fix it. See how easy it is?" Can you really expect people to learn how to troubleshoot without taking ALL the steps necessary?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Here's one I was at yesterday......
> 
> _it's no fun if I give the solution 2 minutes after posting this._


This wasn't much fun.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JW Splicer said:


> This wasn't much fun.


Yeah, since no one understands the meaning or even tries to.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, since no one understands the meaning or even tries to.


Ok last time....

You found a switch box that was full of NM. *(BTW, I asked you earlier if the old NM had a ground, no answer from you.)*
Anyway, you either had a ground fault in that box or it was backfed or double fed. That's the best I can do without being there.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, since no one understands the meaning or even tries to.


You might get different responses if you weren't so condescending and arrogant all the time.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Well I for one do like the Solve the Problem Threads . Gee , I even picked up a thing or two . Thanks to all those who post them .





Pete


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Guess our questions-speculations-etc. are not worthy of what was found.
Or maybe it's not been long enough yet!:whistling2:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Guess our questions-speculations-etc. are not worthy of what was found.
> Or maybe it's not been long enough yet!:whistling2:


nah, I think 480 is just still trying to untwist his panties. he just didn't appreciate all the humour, I guess.
you go girl !


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

480sparky said:


> A: The answer is part of the TS routine. There weren't notes in the box attached to the wires saying, "This wire goes to _____ and this wire goes to ______". The point is:_ How do you determine where it does go?_* This is such an incredibly simple concept, *and one that experienced TSers do without thinking.
> 
> Most responses have just been guesses and conjecture. That's not solving anything. It's an attempt at using just pure dumb luck. And that's the purpose of the thread: To bring out those steps that one must take in order to find the problem, for the benefit of those wishing to improve their TS skills.
> 
> Without learning and developing these steps and the reasoning behind them, ALL service calls can be reduced to, "Find the problem and fix it. See how easy it is?" Can you really expect people to learn how to troubleshoot without taking ALL the steps necessary?


So I take it you want someone to list all the steps they would take to solve the problem?

Kinda impossible without feedback from the system you are testing which means YOU have to provide the feedback to the questions. If you don't, it's pointless to go further because assumptions will lead to different paths.

If you want a flow chart on troubleshooting, here it is.


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## electricialjunkie23 (Jul 26, 2015)

Put in a 20amp Breaker


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