# Supplier just got new T8 ballasts in - 5 year warranty!



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Our supplier is now getting electronic ballasts with 5 year warranties that acually says "5 year warranty" on the ballast! A few months ago, I was asking around and saying my customers would pay more for a better quality ballast.
> 
> Is it possible that they listened to a few of us who want quality?
> 
> ...


That is because they wont be in business in 5 years..:laughing::laughing:


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

First: Keep all your invoices.

Second: Write the date installed on every ballast with a Sharpie marker right on the ballast label.

Third: WHen one goes bad, you have documentation of when you bought it, and when it was originally installed. 

MAKE THEM HONOR ANY GUARANTEES!!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I was ready to post that Sola makes fine transformers, so they probably make decent ballasts, then I decided to look into it further. 

Sola/Hevi-Duty is an old-school transformer maker in the US, and they have a fine reputation.

Sola Basic is a ballast manufacturer in Mexico, and I don't know anything about them. 

These two appear to be two different companies.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Our supplier is now getting electronic ballasts with 5 year warranties that acually says "5 year warranty" on the ballast!.


It seems the major ballast suppliers are doing 5 years on some of their lines but to me that is just a hassle. Besides the customer wants to know why they still have to pay for lifts and labor.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am pretty sure Advance has a 5 year warranty. I'll go look.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

BBQ said:


> It seems the major ballast suppliers are doing 5 years on some of their lines but to me that is just a hassle. Besides the customer wants to know why they still have to pay for lifts and labor.


 The cost of the ballast is the least of their worries. Many of the Sola ballasts originally installed in an office, where I used to work only lasted 25 to 30 years.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Our supplier is now getting electronic ballasts with 5 year warranties that acually says "5 year warranty" on the ballast! A few months ago, I was asking around and saying my customers would pay more for a better quality ballast.
> 
> *Is it possible that they listened to a few of us who want quality?*
> 
> ...



GE
Advance-Philips
Osram SYLVANIA

They all offer 5 year warranty. If you use brand-matching lamp-ballast combo and register, they each have lamp/ballast combo warranty program.

5 year warranty on electronic ballasts? Been around for a long time.

Universal offers it too.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

One thing I'm noticing about the electronic ballasts.... if you leave a burned out lamp in the fixture for very long, it seems to kill the ballast. A lot of places that don't have a maintenance guy wait until they have a certain amount of lamps burned out before they call in an electrician to change them. It seem like the longer a fixture goes with a spent lamp, the greater the chances are that it will need a new ballast. I'm not sure why that is, with the electronic ballasts in particular.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

I want them to go bad in 2 yrs, when I offer a 1yr guarentee.

I ain't offering 5 for this type job.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> One thing I'm noticing about the electronic ballasts.... if you leave a burned out lamp in the fixture for very long, it seems to kill the ballast. A lot of places that don't have a maintenance guy wait until they have a certain amount of lamps burned out before they call in an electrician to change them. It seem like the longer a fixture goes with a spent lamp, the greater the chances are that it will need a new ballast. I'm not sure why that is, with the electronic ballasts in particular.


That's odd, seeing that most T8 ballasts support one fewer lamp than it is designed for. 

i.e. GE232MAX-N supports either one or two T8 lamp. If one burns out, its just as its operating on one lamp. Once a T8 lamp is out and can't strike, its more or less the same as not being there. 

They're moving away from series-wired system as much as possible where a failure of one lamp causes more than one lamp to go out, because it reduces the mean hours before group re-lamp is needed.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Starts*

Ask them how many starts per day / year it's good for to get 5 years


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Ask them how many starts per day / year it's good for to get 5 years


It's the lamps affected by start counts, not ballasts.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> It's the lamps affected by start counts, not ballasts.



Now that is some funny stuff.:laughing:

All electronic devices are affected by the number of starts.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Now that is some funny stuff.:laughing:
> 
> All electronic devices are affected by the number of starts.


 On standard Instant Start ballasts, *lamp *life is 
significantly affected by frequent starting, not ballast life. Programmed 
Start ballasts provide a “soft start” and will 
reduce the cathode degradation that occurs at each start.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> On standard Instant Start ballasts, *lamp *life is
> significantly affected by frequent starting, not ballast life. Programmed
> Start ballasts provide a “soft start” and will
> reduce the cathode degradation that occurs at each start.



No kidding? Can you also tell me what color a green ground screw is? :laughing:


Yet still, ballast life is affected by the number of starts.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Yet still, ballast life is affected by the number of starts.


I'd agree with that. I think anything that has a capacitor in it, would.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No kidding? Can you also tell me what color a green ground screw is? :laughing:
> 
> 
> Yet still, ballast life is affected by the number of starts.


:laughing: It's green Bob.

I would never in a million years challenge your code prowess,  however I disagree about ballast life though. Anything that I've ever read always addressed lamp life being effected not ballast. 

Here'e an interesting read about it from Universal. Ballast life is never mentioned.
http://www.unvlt.com/literature/programmed.html


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Ima Hack said:


> I would never in a million years challenge your code prowess,


It's ok. Just remember a few rules about Bob, and all will be well:

1) Bob is always right.

2) Even when Bob is wrong, he is still right

3) Any questions, see rule #1. 

:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> :laughing: It's green Bob.


Thanks :thumbup:



> I disagree about ballast life though. Anything that I've ever read always addressed lamp life being effected not ballast.


At this point I reference the rules to live by as posted by the Hunchback of Notre-Dame



Peter D said:


> It's ok. Just remember a few rules about Bob, and all will be well:
> 
> 1) Bob is always right.
> 
> ...


Now that the ground rules have been established there should be no further questions.

_As it has been typed so shall it be done!_





OK, maybe not. :laughing:


But back onto ballasts, the heating and cooling of electronic components lead to quicker break downs. 

Just because lamps are much more severely affected and are the subject of many more articles does not mean that the number of starts does not affect electronic ballast life.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> The cost of the ballast is the least of their worries. Many of the Sola ballasts originally installed in an office, where I used to work only lasted 25 to 30 years.


It is true that passive devices tend to last longer and they're more resilient to extreme abuse. Magnetic ballasts don't have any semiconductor parts and they fail over time from sustained overload or overheat.

Modern design electronic ballasts do not swing in power usage from normal line voltage fluctuation. Many older ones from 90s as well as magnetic ones do though. 

The ballast loss is significantly less and the intrinsic nature of fluorescent lamps improve efficiency when they're driven at high frequency. Electricity is expensive enough that compromise in device resilience is considered economically just.

Well made electronic made is inaudible and has less flicker than a filament lamp and these irons out main objections about fluorescent lights by occupants. 

Wall-warts with core and coil transformers seldom fail sparing long overload caused by misapplication or failed load. Solid state power supplies, which provides much better DC output regulation and much superior regulation are far more likely to fail suddenly.

Ballast life isn't affected by number of power cycles within the scope of NORMAL usage. Unreasonably fast, repeated, cycling may damage them. By that, I mean lighting contactor that chatters badly every time it is turned on.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

If memory serves me correctly, I remember reading ballast life was 50,000 or 100,000 hours. I'm not sure which it was but I do remember reading that somewhere. I would guess the normal 3 hours per start is how life is calculated.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Electricity is expensive enough that compromise in device resilience is considered economically just.


Yeah, except when the ballast fails within the warranty period. Then it's not so "economically just" for the installing contractor.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Ballast life isn't affected by number of power cycles within the scope of NORMAL usage.


Of course it is, without a doubt.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Ballast life isn't affected by number of power cycles within the scope of NORMAL usage. Unreasonably fast, repeated, cycling may damage them.


What is Normal usage?

When tested, they turn them on, leave them on, and see how long an X mount of them fail.

In an office enviroment, let's say with todays "go green" aprroach to energ savings, the standard light switch is replaced with a motion sensor/infared/ambient light sensor.

These lights could feasibly be cycled 5 or more times during a Normal work day, when before they where cycled once.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> What is Normal usage?
> 
> When tested, they turn them on, leave them on, and see how long an X mount of them fail.
> 
> ...


That's well within normal usage for ballast. If it's an instant start, it will take a toll on lamp life, but if the lamps are installed in such a way a maintenance guy could just get on the step ladder and change them in two hours, its worth it even with instant start.

If it's a single occupancy gas station restroom on five-minute time out that is switched hundreds of times a day, you're definitely going to want programmed start or the lamps are not going to last long.

From what I said in an earlier post: 
*Unreasonably fast*, repeated, cycling may damage them. By that, I mean lighting contactor that chatters badly every time it is turned on. 

So if you turn it on, it boink boink boinks five times within a second, you can stress the ballast's front end.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> One thing I'm noticing about the electronic ballasts.... if you leave a burned out lamp in the fixture for very long, it seems to kill the ballast. A lot of places that don't have a maintenance guy wait until they have a certain amount of lamps burned out before they call in an electrician to change them. It seem like the longer a fixture goes with a spent lamp, the greater the chances are that it will need a new ballast. I'm not sure why that is, with the electronic ballasts in particular.


I have noticed the same thing, and have tried to see the logic since you can use a 4L for 3L as said below. 



Electric_Light said:


> That's odd, seeing that most T8 ballasts support one fewer lamp than it is designed for.
> 
> i.e. GE232MAX-N supports either one or two T8 lamp. If one burns out, its just as its operating on one lamp. Once a T8 lamp is out and can't strike, its more or less the same as not being there.
> 
> They're moving away from series-wired system as much as possible where a failure of one lamp causes more than one lamp to go out, because it reduces the mean hours before group re-lamp is needed.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> That's well within normal usage for ballast. If it's an instant start, it will take a toll on lamp life, but if the lamps are installed in such a way a maintenance guy could just get on the step ladder and change them in two hours, its worth it even with instant start.
> 
> If it's a single occupancy gas station restroom on five-minute time out that is switched hundreds of times a day, you're definitely going to want programmed start or the lamps are not going to last long.
> 
> ...


Asking a straight question

Is it your belief that cycling a ballast once a day will not decreases it's operating hour life span compared to one that stays on 24/7?

Simple yes or no question.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I'd answer my own personal belief. I think shutting it off for half a day is better for the ballast. Only because electronics degrade by use and heat. But of course there must be a balancing point.

Maybe you guys aren't really disagreeing that much, if you understand it's not totally a black and white thing.

Also I asked my supplier about getting "rapid start" ballasts instead of "instant start" or a "programmed start", but he just looked at me funny and checked his computer and said no. But they don't specialize in lighting.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I'd answer my own personal belief. I think shutting it off for half a day is better for the ballast. Only because electronics degrade by use and heat. But of course there must be a balancing point.
> 
> Maybe you guys aren't really disagreeing that much, if you understand it's not totally a black and white thing.
> 
> Also I asked my supplier about getting "rapid start" ballasts instead of "instant start" or a "programmed start", but he just looked at me funny and checked his computer and said no. But they don't specialize in lighting.


Grainger has them..


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Asking a straight question
> 
> Is it your belief that cycling a ballast once a day will not decreases it's operating hour life span compared to one that stays on 24/7?
> 
> Simple yes or no question.


*In practical sense, not at all. *

Thermal cycling affects may affect total "on time" but not useful time. 

Car engines are just like that as well. If you start it up in cold, then drive to work for ten minutes and shut it off, the total run hours before failure maybe lower than leaving it running continuously. Even if you get a second key and leave it running all day while you're working, those hours are not "useful hours". 

Programmed start ballasts are designed to minimize wear and tear on lamps in "turn off the engine at light" style usage. They provide great life from lamps that are cycled tens of times a day, however they're not meant to be flashed hundreds of times an hour, like Vegas neon signs(cold cathode).



kaboler said:


> I'd answer my own personal belief. I think shutting it off for half a day is better for the ballast. Only because electronics degrade by use and heat. But of course there must be a balancing point.


Leave it on all day vs shut off was a big debate topic when the average computer cost thousands of dollars. Computers are a bit different since they have fans. If you leave it on all day, dust accumulates and it decreases maintenance interval. Stalled fan is one of the leading causes of computer failures. 

Maybe you guys aren't really disagreeing that much, if you understand it's not totally a black and white thing.



> Also I asked my supplier about getting "rapid start" ballasts instead of "instant start" or a "programmed start", but he just looked at me funny and checked his computer and said no. But they don't specialize in lighting.


Magnetic ballasts are basically getting banned for commercial use since they don't meet energy efficiency standards. 

Rapid start electronic ballasts are uncommon. They're still available for T12s and they were available for T8s in 90s but they suck. Starting temperature is usually no lower than 50F, just like old fashioned standard magnetic. The filament heat is left-on after starting, so the system lumens/watt is lower and since it doesn't wait until filaments are warm to apply voltage, so lamp cycle life gain isn't all that good.

There's really no reason to use them. Programmed rapid start effective replaces them. They provide substantial cycle life increase and can start lamps down to 0F to -20F depending on model as starting voltage can often be close to that of instant start.

The sequence is very similar to starting a diesel engine in a very cold climate.

glow-heater on-> Wait until proper temperature is reached-> Fire the lamp->turn off glow heaters. There's a trade off that pre-heat takes anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 seconds, depending on ballast.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Simple yes or no question.


yes, that is my belief.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> *In practical sense, not at all. *
> 
> Thermal cycling affects may affect total "on time" but not useful time.


So the answer is yes.

You seem to have trouble with just answering the question.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

BBQ said:


> So the answer is yes.
> 
> You seem to have trouble with just answering the question.


The answer is no. 
It is only a "yes" in unreasonable situations, like I mentioned, such as extending total useful hours of engine by running it all day while you're at work.


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