# Small town inspector with big ideas.



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Sounds like you know it's not an NEC requirement for residential circuits (voltage drop limitations that is). 

So, is this inspector failing the job for this? If so, what is he using for justification? What % of drop is he looking to not exceed?


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Unless he can cite a specific Code Section showing that the VD he measures is a violation of said specific Code Section, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. If need be, go over his head to his boss if he tries to red-tag your job based on his little tester.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Arcs65 said:


> Ok, I've ran into this inspector that gets his jollies off of voltage drop. He has a Ideal 61-165 arc-fault tester sure test circuit analyzer. He'll load the circuit up to 80% & check for v.d. I can't find another inspector in our state that does this or agrees with it. It's completely legal here to run 14 NM in residential. By the 2nd plug no more than 25' from the panel. Your at the limit. I can't find anything in the code book that justifies him doing this except AHJ. Which in my opinion AHJ doesn't justify this. Let me hear yalls opinions.


I would show Mr. AHJ my voltage drop calculations according to the NEC and tell him to pack up his new toy and move on. He may be getting interesting data from his tester but he isn't qualified to interpret it or to use it to supersede the NEC.
If your building department adopted the 2008 or whatever, he has an obligation to use it.


----------



## Arcs65 (Aug 12, 2012)

Yes! He'll red tag you. He claims most of your t.v. manufacturers recommend no lower than 106 volts. He draws the line there. Older guy, that interprets the code as saying your supposed to load the ckt to 80% to chk it. I've tried talking to him, but it's like beating your head against a concrete wall.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Simply ask him for a code rule.


----------



## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree, he is making his own rules.

Meet in his office next am. You, him and the chief have a 5 min.consult. 

Walk out with your green sticker.


----------



## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Will his tester stand up to 240v?



looks like it's good to 265. 

https://ssl.biggiweb.com/testersand...ureTest-Arc-Fault-Tester-Circuit-Analyzer.php


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

whip his a$$


----------



## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It seems he is taking his job a little to far. He is there to see if you meet code. Never had one go this far.


----------



## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

Are you on good terms with this inspector? Some of these guys pull this stuff if they don't like you personally. I've seen it happen, but only to a few guys. 

ALL inspectors have something they want to see done in order to pass inspection. Call it an itch they want you to scratch. I never heard of anything like this on a resi job. I would have a meeting with the inspector and the head of the building department so they can show you where they amended the code. They can amend the code threw local ordinances, but if they haven't done that then the town should abide by the NEC.


----------



## RMatthis (Nov 9, 2009)

Arcs65 said:


> Yes! He'll red tag you. He claims most of your t.v. manufacturers recommend no lower than 106 volts. He draws the line there. Older guy, that interprets the code as saying your supposed to load the ckt to 80% to chk it. I've tried talking to him, but it's like beating your head against a concrete wall.


TV's are more energy efficient now than they were 50 years ago... so where's the logic? Tell him to quit getting his education from HGTV and to join a local IAEI.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Walk into his bosses office with the biggest high paid attorney in your town in tow. Watch how fast his little tester goes back into his tool box and stays there. Fark those kind of inspectors .... (note- unless he is truly trying to save you from a real problem down the road out of his being a truly nice guy that you just do not understand his motivations well enough, but I doubt that seriously....).


----------



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

What does he consider "full load"??. I can plug in a shop vac at 12a or so or I can plug in a electric heater and draw 20 amps on the exact same plug.. I just wired a house that had master bed and bath 200' or so away, I run both in #10 wire home runs but probably didn't need to.(err on the side of caution). I would not allow this,go to his boss and ask for a NEC reference.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

although 90.5 explains 210.19(A)(1) IN #4 and 215.2(A)(4) IN#2 as not mandatory, 110.4 voltages could be seen as a 110.3(B) requirement

~CS~


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> although 90.5 explains 210.19(A)(1) IN #4 and 215.2(A)(4) IN#2 as not mandatory, 110.4 voltages could be seen as a 110.3(B) requirement
> 
> ~CS~


:no:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Walk into his bosses office with the biggest high paid attorney in your town in tow. Watch how fast his little tester goes back into his tool box and stays there. Fark those kind of inspectors .....


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Arcs65 said:


> Yes! He'll red tag you. He claims most of your t.v. manufacturers recommend no lower than 106 volts. He draws the line there. Older guy, that interprets the code as saying your supposed to load the ckt to 80% to chk it. I've tried talking to him, but it's like beating your head against a concrete wall.


That's almost a 12% VD. Personally, I would not want to wire a circuit where at an 80% load you see a 12% VD. I think he has a valid point from an engineering point of view and I agree with him.

The issue though, he does not have the right to fail you based on the NEC.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Arcs65 said:


> Yes! He'll red tag you. He claims most of your t.v. manufacturers recommend no lower than 106 volts. He draws the line there....


While he's right that you're getting to the lower limits of ANSI voltage tolerances, that doesn't matter because he's only there to enforce the NEC, so unless he can cite a code section, he's wrong.

_Hardworking, _I was surprised to see that amount of VD is actually normal for a #14 circuit loaded that heavily. It just goes to show you how rarely circuits are actually loaded like that, and how tolerant most equipment is, because how often is this really a problem?

-John


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's rarely a problem John

I've a similar meter, to address what it's asking for would mean addressing the home runs in any circuit over 200' (average) wire length

which is easy to assume (the lentgh) , even in a modest dwelling

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> _Hardworking, _I was surprised to see that amount of VD is actually normal for a #14 circuit loaded that heavily. It just goes to show you how rarely circuits are actually loaded like that, and how tolerant most equipment is, because how often is this really a problem?
> 
> -John


If you use the VD calculator from the MH site, using #14 wire and a 5% VD, you can go almost 80' at a 12-amp load. That would mean you can go 159' and have a 10% VD.

Years ago, the city of Baltimore conducted studies and I thought (but am not sure) enacted a local law limiting VD to 10%. I don't remember if they used a 100% load or not.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

most poco service manuals dictate lateral install sizes based on full load VD

while not premisis NEC wiring, the doctrine is not isolated

any of us confronted with , say a customers distant outbuilding with a feeder /branch inadequate for the customers electrical desires inevitably will utter the word _VOLTAGE DROP_, and explain it's implications on their equipment (110.3(B)

~CS~


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

:wallbash: Hardworking, you're absolutely right. My original post was a quick check with ohm's law and I accidentally read the "ohms/km" column instead of "ohms/kft" so my numbers were high. 

-John


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

> The Philadelphia Housing Development Corporation requires contractors to perform the 15-ampere-load test prior to insulating existing homes with insulation blown into attic crawl spaces in older row homes. [3] Prior to instituting the test, smoldering fires were associated with half a dozen installations. The PHDC found that 70% of the homes flunked the 5% maximum voltage drop test with “a cluster around 6%”. The PHDC arbitrarily established 10% as an unacceptable voltage drop, beyond which the contractor must repair/replace the circuit prior to proceeding with the insulation project. PHDC has been using this criteria successfully for 2 years (no fires in 2,500 installations).


http://www.psihq.com/iread/faqvolt.htm

Maybe it was Philly and not Baltimore (I'm getting older and more forgetful).


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*My opinion*

If you want to be a "better" EC, IMO, you should consider VD in your wiring. I have found with the marinas I've wired that using a 2% PoCo drop, a 100% load, and an overall (final voltage) VD of 10% to be the lower limits of adequate power supply.

It's a fine line, people don't want to overspend, but if you can maintain 108V on the 120 side or 216V on the 240 side the end user can deal with it. Much lower and you may get a bad reputation. IMO, you can't put a price on a good reputation.


----------



## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

Check your state and/or local building or energy efficiency code. That's where they nailed us in FL. 2% max on feeders, 3% max on branch circuits. I don't know if they are doing it for residential yet, but I am getting pretty sick of #8 home runs in commercial.

The VD has to be part of the engineered plans. Most engineers now call for #12 HR up to 60' on 20 amp 120V circuits, #10 up to 120', and #8 after that. Some will call for just the HR to be upsized, others will call for the whole circuit.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I wired a residential dock once, it was 400' long. The customer wanted 120-volt receptacles on it so he could plug in a pressure washer and he wanted good voltage. I ran #8 for the circuit and a buddy EC of mine came by and laughed and said


> Only you would run #8 for a 120-volt circuit


.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Since I bought one of those testers, I see the vd in second floor bedrooms start to get up there especially if its on the opposite side of the house from the panel. Not that big of an issue if you aren't running a window ac. I usually do them a room to a circuit. I tried that with a 1500w heater the other day at newer home and the voltage fell to 106v if I remember right. I wonder how accurate these testers are at no load. If he's going to continue doing this, he needs to establish a number and put it in writing.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Since I bought one of those testers, I see the vd in second floor bedrooms start to get up there especially if its on the opposite side of the house from the panel....


 Even though my original voltage drop estimate was high, I still question whether VD is that much of a concern. How often does someone really run a 250' circuit in a house?

-John


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> Even though my original voltage drop estimate was high, I still question whether VD is that much of a concern. How often does someone really run a 250' circuit in a house?
> 
> -John


Where does the 250' come from?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Where does the 250' come from?


 That's about the length I figure to get down below ANSI tolerances of 104V.

-John


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> Even though my original voltage drop estimate was high, I still question whether VD is that much of a concern. How often does someone really run a 250' circuit in a house?
> 
> -John


That is a lot of VD in 250' of 14 with 15 amps of load @ 120 VAC.

I think to stay under NEC recommendations you are under 100' and actually may be under 75'.


Maybe you are just counting one direction, not out and back (250' x 2 = 500')


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's about the length I figure to get down below ANSI tolerances of 104V.
> 
> -John


It's a rule of thumb. Most rules of thumb are hit with the biggest mallet we can find on this forum. But that is a good one.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

:laughing: First Hardworking says my numbers are high and now BBQ says my numbers are low. This is the last time I do basic math on this forum.

I got that number with 2KLI/CM
2(12)250'(12A)/4110 = 17.5VD

-John


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Our rule of thumb, and one we see from engineers in job specs is to increase one conductor size for every 100' of circuit length on 120 volt branch circuits.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> :laughing: First Hardworking says my numbers are high and now BBQ says my numbers are low.



:laughing:

Would you expect less from us? :jester:


Your wrong to the left, you are wrong to the right, you just can't be right. :jester:


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

figure out a way to smoke his tester


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

One can assume nore than 250' on the far end of a ciruit that daisychains itself around a dwelling

H*ll, half the manufactured homes out there have lighting circuits that bounce across the length of them in #14 wire

and there's a _perfect_ 110.3(B) for you btw.....

~CS~


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The last manufactured home I did, ranch style, I'm sure in all #14, except the sabc's, dryer, range, and bath recepts, certainly wasn't going to leave me awake at night worrying about voltage drop. Mcmansions might cause me to rethink, or add some subpanels.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Run all 10 wire, 12 is good, 10 is better.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

This place can sure get silly fast.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> Run all 10 wire, 12 is good, 10 is better.


And who is going to accept that quote?


----------

