# Ground electrode conductor in meters



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

GEC in a meter socket is verboten here. Go to the panel.


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

2008 has a "common location" change but i think thats where you have more than (1) service and no common outside disconnects or main. thats when you have say (2) 100A services fed from (1) 200A service, in those cases i use to go from panel to panel one unbroken length out to the rod/s


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

remote meters here need there own GEC


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## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

mollydog said:


> Ok, This is a "hot" topic. I dont allow it and I dont have to accept it. Some inspects let it go but its supposed to be done in the MDP. Main reason: Acsessibility (meters are sealed) I know its a fine line and I'm gonna hear some crap about it but I like to know if anybody else does this ? I cant stand when they do that.


Sometimes I have seen inspectors ask for a groundrod on underground meters placed at the road off the pole. I dont agree that it is required but sometimes it is easier to just drive a rod and get your check. It is aparently allowed more down south from what I gather. I was always tought to land it at the first point of disconnect.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

mollydog said:


> Ok, This is a "hot" topic. I dont allow it and I dont have to accept it. Some inspects let it go but its supposed to be done in the MDP. Main reason: Acsessibility (meters are sealed) I know its a fine line and I'm gonna hear some crap about it but I like to know if anybody else does this ? I cant stand when they do that.


Meter seals can be opened easier then screws on a panel. Also I have rarely ever had to get to the GEC except when I am changing the service or moving it. In this area the GEC is almost always terminated in the meter. I think this is a POCO call rather than an NEC call. Some POCO's allow it while others don't


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> Meter seals can be opened easier then screws on a panel.....


No one in your area has ever tried to 'steal' electricity by bypassing their meter?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No one in your area has ever tried to 'steal' electricity by bypassing their meter?


Apparently that is not as big a problem here as it is there-- Cut the seal and that's it. No lock.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> Apparently that is not as big a problem here as it is there-- Cut the seal and that's it. No lock.


Those 'knuckle' locks are a royal pain. It's a day of calling the POCO time & time again to get a line crew out to unlock them. I always get their standard response of 'Well, just cut the lock with your linesmans!"

I once got ahold of one of these locks, and spend days tearing it apart and grinding it down just to see how it worked. Never did figure it out.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

sherman said:


> Sometimes I have seen inspectors ask for a groundrod on underground meters placed at the road off the pole. I dont agree that it is required but sometimes it is easier to just drive a rod and get your check. It is aparently allowed more down south from what I gather. I was always tought to land it at the first point of disconnect.


If you place a meter socket out at the end of the property on a pole, in my humble little opinion, you now have a seperate structure and therefor are subject to 250.50 and 250.52.


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

no no no, he's still outside of the building, its not a feeder.... he can run outside the building and terminate as service entrance.:thumbup:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

mollydog said:


> no no no, he's still outside of the building, its not a feeder.... he can run outside the building and terminate as service entrance.:thumbup:


I agree unless there is a disconnect at the pole.


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

not just that but where customer service says "cut the seal" there is a big difference in a seal and a barrel lock, your not getting a barrel lock off with ease... i gotta get back to work.............................................


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

no no no, if there is OCP @ the pole its a feeder, if its just a disconnect that isnt the definition of a feeder.....:001_unsure:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

mollydog said:


> no no no, if there is OCP @ the pole its a feeder, if its just a disconnect that isnt the definition of a feeder.....:001_unsure:


I stand corrected but I was thinking an ocpd as the disco.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The problem with multiple panels fed from a single meter socket and bringing the GEC into each panel, is paralleling the neutral. Seems to me that is a bigger no no than landing the GEC in the meter socket. If I had to make a choice between jumping a GEC to each panel or landing it in the meter socket, I'd choose the socket.

Let's not forget that we can also land the GEC on the neutral at the overhead service drop...


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## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> If you place a meter socket out at the end of the property on a pole, in my humble little opinion, you now have a seperate structure and therefor are subject to 250.50 and 250.52.


It is not on a pole but a frame of 4x6 pressure treated acq approved by the poco meter to a height of 4' 6" no ocp just fed off the street down the pole underground 15' clear of right of ways is the meter set on front lawn then to house. A ground rod would create a ground loop to the meter disconnect ground rod. There is a swimming pool in the area and it just made the clearance of the underground by less than a foot. In my opinion another rod could be dangerous.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

sherman said:


> It is not on a pole but a frame of 4x6 pressure treated acq approved by the poco meter to a height of 4' 6" no ocp just fed off the street down the pole underground 15' clear of right of ways is the meter set on front lawn then to house. A ground rod would create a ground loop to the meter disconnect ground rod. There is a swimming pool in the area and it just made the clearance of the underground by less than a foot. In my opinion another rod could be dangerous.


 How would the second rod make a ground loop with the first?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> How would the second rod make a ground loop with the first?


If both rods are bonded to the neutral at their respective locations, then the earth is now a parallel path for neutral current.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Those 'knuckle' locks are a royal pain. It's a day of calling the POCO time & time again to get a line crew out to unlock them. I always get their standard response of 'Well, just cut the lock with your linesmans!"
> 
> I once got ahold of one of these locks, and spend days tearing it apart and grinding it down just to see how it worked. Never did figure it out.


I got one of these. Takes me me 5 seconds to get that "Watt Lock" opened! :thumbsup:


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

I did a new water well recently. The rural Co-Op had already installed the pole, riser, and meter before I got there. The GEC was attached to the Meter. I asked the inspector about it, he said it's up to the PoCo. The city PoCo doesn't want it that way.

"When in Rome".


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

BTW, isn't installing a grounded bushing on a metal nipple between the meter and the panel/disconnect about the same thing as installing the GEC into the meter?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> I got one of these. Takes me me 5 seconds to get that "Watt Lock" opened! :thumbsup:


 
Gonna keep it a secret where to get them?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> If both rods are bonded to the neutral at their respective locations, then the earth is now a parallel path for neutral current.



The earth won't be a very good path. Normally we will install 2 rods at least 6' apart for a service -- I am assuming that is the reason for that requirement. If we normally drive 2 rods 6 feet apart or more and tie each rod separately back to the panel/meter then we have the same scenario. I do not see this as an issue. Putting the gec at the meter just puts the so called parallel path at the utility end. Perhaps we should not be allowed to run 2 separate GEC's. 

That being said I always terminate at the meter and always run I continuous conductor- I know the GEC does not have to be continuous.

I just don't see this as an issue but perhaps I am incorrect-- been there before.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> The earth won't be a very good path. Normally we will install 2 rods at least 6' apart for a service -- I am assuming that is the reason for that requirement. If we normally drive 2 rods 6 feet apart or more and tie each rod separately back to the panel/meter then we have the same scenario. I do not see this as an issue. Putting the gec at the meter just puts the so called parallel path at the utility end. Perhaps we should not be allowed to run 2 separate GEC's.
> 
> That being said I always terminate at the meter and always run I continuous conductor- I know the GEC does not have to be continuous.
> 
> I just don't see this as an issue but perhaps I am incorrect-- been there before.


Two GECs connected to two rods at the same panel is not the same as two rods dozens of yards apart connected to the neutral at different locations. In the first case there is no potential difference between the two, in the second case voltage drop and line resistance creates a PD.

I personally don't care for the way we bond things. The current way we do it allows for circulating neutral currents all over the place. Neighboring services have foreign currents flowing between them all the time. In my opinion, we should have a single point for an earth connection to the neutral. That should probably be at the transformer. Then a separate ground run with the service conductors to our service. For single phase this would mean a 4-wire drop, and for three phase it would be 5-wire. The POCO ground would be connected to a rod at the service to equalize earth potential, and then tie to a ground bus for branch circuits, never intersecting the neutral except at the transformer.

But I'm just dreaming.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Gonna keep it a secret where to get them?


Another EC gave it to me. He had bought some old PoCo trucks at an Auction and found 2 of 'em... and several seals! :icon_wink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> Another EC gave it to me. He had bought some old PoCo trucks at an Auction and found 2 of 'em... and several seals! :icon_wink:


Ive got this one, but it opens very few locks as the POCO that uses them is phasing them out.


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## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

electricista said:


> How would the second rod make a ground loop with the first?


Two groundrods with a difference of potential in parallel with the source conductors will conduct some of the neural current through the ground via groundrods.


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey, thats nice! Where the heck did you get that ?


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## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

I think your confused about bonding around concentric knockouts and the termination of the ground electrode system. When you bond through the steel nipple your usually bonding around the nipple because of concentric knockouts. If you have a hub you dont have to, the meter is bonded by way of the service neutral and the disconnect enclosure is bonded via a bonding screw, that being said the nipple is threaded into the hub which is a recognized bonding method. It doesnt hurt to bond around the nipple even if a hub is used.......... The electrode is totally seperate and has to be terminated in the main distribution panel (MDP) some POCO's and inspectors allow it to be in the meter but I dont.:thumbsup:


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Nope, not confused. I understand why we use the bonding bushing (except one AHJ here requires the bonding bushing EVEN IF using a hub) because of eccentric/concentric KO's. I also understand that the GEC terminates in the first panel or disco (except that one PoCo installed a bare #4 in the Neutral on the meter, and ran it down their pole into the ground. Probably into a circle under the pole). 

I'm just asking what the difference in potential is there between bonding bushings in a meter, and terminating the GEC in the meter.


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## SmithBuilt (Jan 9, 2009)

mollydog said:


> its supposed to be done in the MDP. Main reason: Acsessibility (meters are sealed)





Is this a local code or does the poco not allow it?


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## TheElectricalGuru (Jan 16, 2007)

Better let Mike Holt know this as he shows MANY of his images with the GEC coming out of the meter can. The connection is MADE to the grounded conductor as specified in the NEC...now the issue of accessible is being used loose....I hardly think a TAG on the meter would keep most electricians out of it.....if they really needed to get to it.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

TheElectricalGuru said:


> The connection is MADE to the grounded conductor as specified in the NEC...now the issue of accessible is being used loose....I hardly think a TAG on the meter would keep most electricians out of it.....if they really needed to get to it.


Location, location, location. It's not the potential, it's the access. Got it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

TheElectricalGuru said:


> Better let Mike Holt know this as he shows MANY of his images with the GEC coming out of the meter can. The connection is MADE to the grounded conductor as specified in the NEC...now the issue of accessible is being used loose....I hardly think a TAG on the meter would keep most electricians out of it.....if they really needed to get to it.


The Code does allow the GEC to terminate in the meter can, but some localities and POCOs won't allow it. A local electric Co-Op near me specifies the GEC to land in the meter socket only. They won't connect if it goes anywhere else.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Some POCOs here require a grd rod to the meter, regardless of the service GEC.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

*Attaching GEC*

The POCO I am working with now does not want the GEC connected to the meter socket base. They say they don't want any wires in there that are not from the pole. Well since we don't have lightning problems here in N CALI. I will go along with them, not that I have much choice anyway.

But If I were in some place with lots of lightning, I would want the shortest most direct path from the the meter to ground. I would rather not share the lightning current path with even a few inches of bus or wire from the meter to the neutral bar before making the GEC connection.

The lightning current pulse has lots of energy into the rf region so reducing inductance in the earth connection is more important than at 60 Hz.

EJPHI


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