# Stupid Amatrol Trainer



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

In my industrial electrical class for the mechatronics class I had to design a control circuit to accomplish this:










With this timer:










According to the diagrams on this timer in on delay timing, A, I can make both sets of contacts timed but no matter how I flipped the switch I could not get them to act as timed.










This is the first diagram I came up with:










Everything worked except the red light, the light would come on for a split second then go out when the control circuit dropped out.

So since last Wednesday I was trying to draw a diagram that would work, I tried off delay, but the problem with that was either the closed contact in the forward coil was impossible to make work or I'd have to use a normally closed (to make my instantaneous N.O. close for the forward coil rung) to control Y1 of the timer so it would never time out in the event of a jam.

Wednesday I had suggested to the instructor I use a control relay controlled by the timed relay and he said that I should be able to do it all with the timer he's seen it done before. So I was playing with the drawing trying to get it to work without a control relay.

Last night I tried a few things and still nothing would work. He drew a diagram and actually came up with the exact drawing I did (my original) Wednesday.

We looked at what the book had as the drawing:










That diagram would never work as they are only using instantaneous contacts on the TR and not timed ones, so it does not meet the criteria.

There was another student that did this skill already and his diagram he used off delay and added a control relay as, I had suggested, to make it work. He gave me credit for my original drawing.

Can any of you make this work without a control relay, or is it really just that crappy timer?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Red indicator to indicate a jam on the conveyor. 
So when there is a jam, you need to drop out the holding contact (f). Use a No contact in a new parallel circuit. You need a sensor to trip when there is a jam, this triggers the new no contact, to close and light the red pilot. In fact the drawing under yours looks good. But you need another contact. You might be able to use the Off delay, I don't have time to study your sequence. Off delay is just that. The relay contacts will close, or open (depending which you chose), after the relay coil has been de energized.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> Red indicator to indicate a jam on the conveyor. So when there is a jam, you need to drop out the holding contact (f). Use a No contact in a new parallel circuit. You need a sensor to trip when there is a jam, this triggers the new no contact, to close and light the red pilot. In fact the drawing under yours looks good. But you need another contact.


Put a new NO contact where? The photo eye has to be the sensor to sense a jam by not sensing the presence of an object for 10 seconds. Like I said everything in my drawing worked flawlessly except for that damn red light because the timer only has one set of timed contacts. I need two sets of timed contacts as I need one set ththat has constant power from before PB1f or the red indicator and I need a contact with power after PB1 to drop out the forward coil.

The only way I can get that to work is to add a contactor controlled by the timed relay, I didn't do a drawing that way because the instructor insisted that it was possible with just the timed relay.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

pudge565 said:


> Put a new NO contact where? The photo eye has to be the sensor to sense a jam by not sensing the presence of an object for 10 seconds. Like I said everything in my drawing worked flawlessly except for that damn red light because the timer only has one set of timed contacts. I need two sets of timed contacts as I need one set ththat has constant power from before PB1f or the red indicator and I need a contact with power after PB1 to drop out the forward coil.
> 
> The only way I can get that to work is to add a contactor controlled by the timed relay, I didn't do a drawing that way because the instructor insisted that it was possible with just the timed relay.


I have to study your drawing more, and the assignment. Should I be looking at the nice drawing at the bottom, or the rough scratch drawing at the top ?


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> I have to study your drawing more, and the assignment.


No problem take your time. I have a habit of over complicating things so it may just be me. But that timer is really confusing as well, IMO has too many settings for a learning environment.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> I have to study your drawing more, and the assignment. Should I be looking at the nice drawing at the bottom, or the rough scratch drawing at the top ?


Rough scratch drawing, that is the one I made, the other was the book's.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

The Timed relays have two sets of contacts or more on the base, which can be N/O, and N/C. So you can open some thing's, and close others, when the relay is activated. You don't have anymore contacts to work with on yours, is what your saying ?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

OK, I see it. Look at the book drawing. The yellow pilot light comes on with the photocell contacts closing. The TR also, and TR has two sets of contacts, the N/O that goes to the light, and the N/C which opens the first rung.


On your drawing, First rung, you need to draw a N/C contact labeled TR1. Should look like your O/L Lose the relay you drew. On the last rung for the red pilot, draw a set of N/O contacts. Your TR1 coil should be on the same rung as the photocell contact, and yellow pilot light in parallel


Now I'm looking at that TR relay you have to work with. I see what you mean by confusing. A1 A2 is the coil, and the diagram below that is the timing chart of all the available settings. I think, 15, and 16 is N/C, and 15, and 18 is N/O. Hard to interpet that kind. Use a continuity tester to determine if there is a N/O, and N/C contacts on that.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> The Timed relays have two sets of contacts or more on the base, which can be N/O, and N/C. So you can open some thing's, and close others, when the relay is activated. You don't have anymore contacts to work with on yours, is what your saying ?


Correct I only have one set of timed contacts in on delay mode. The other set there is a switch for timed or instantaneous which seems does not work with on delay even though the diagram shows A, which is the on delay setting, as R1/R2 being able to both be timed (I think).

I need two sets of timed contacts to accomplish what I need (without a control relay) because I have one that has the common from after the start and another that has common from before the start to power the red light so it stays on to signal a jam even after the circuit drops from fault.



dronai said:


> OK, I see it. Look at the book drawing. The yellow pilot light comes on with the photocell contacts closing. The TR also, and TR has two sets of contacts, the N/O that goes to the light, and the N/C which opens the first rung.
> 
> On your drawing, First rung, you need to draw a N/C contact labeled TR1. Should look like your O/L Lose the relay you drew. On the last rung for the red pilot, draw a set of N/O contacts. Your TR1 coil should be on the same rung as the photocell contact, and yellow pilot light in parallel
> 
> Now I'm looking at that TR relay you have to work with. I see what you mean by confusing. A1 A2 is the coil, and the diagram below that is the timing chart of all the available settings. I think, 15, and 16 is N/C, and 15, and 18 is N/O. Hard to interpet that kind. Use a continuity tester to determine if there is a N/O, and N/C contacts on that.



According to the book the symbols they have for the NC in the first rung is an instantaneous and not a timed same for the others off the TR. There shows nothing on that diagram actually using timed contacts which is why I say it won't work.

Possibly I'm not being clear, everything in my diagram works except for that red indicator.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

pudge565 said:


> According to the book the symbols they have for the NC in the first rung is an instantaneous and not a timed same for the others off the TR. There shows nothing on that diagram actually using timed contacts which is why I say it won't work.
> 
> Possibly I'm not being clear, everything in my diagram works except for that red indicator.


I see a N/C contact in the book ladder which reads TR which stands for timed relay. The coil that's says TR is the relay, and the contacts are just labeled TR


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> I see a N/C contact in the book ladder which reads TR which stands for timed relay. The coil that's says TR is the relay, and the contacts are just labeled TR


Correct, but according to that book the symbol they have there is not for a timed contact of a TR it is for an instantaneous contact of a TR the timed cintacts use the symbols I have in my drawing which are on delay off delay has the arrow on the bottom the opposite direction.

I can't say one way or the other as I had never dealt with time delay relays nor symbols before.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

Looking at the diagram on the timer for A I should be able to make the R2 contacts timed, but no matter what position I had the dip switch in I could not make them timed. If I could have my problem would have went away.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

The timer you have needs voltage applied to a1-a2 at all times. you switch it on/off with y1. that is not shown on either print. hook up power to them and try powering y1 to make it time


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> The timer you have needs voltage applied to a1-a2 at all times. you switch it on/off with y1. that is not shown on either print. hook up power to them and try powering y1 to make it time


Not in A mode it does not, Y1 from what the book says and those diagrams is only used on C which is an off-delay. I had tried what you suggested and it had no effect other than the timer would never time out.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

I do appreciate all the ideas and help, and I thank you for taking time to help.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Pudge. Its great to see the young guys learning this stuff. Most electricians never learn these things. The guys that do learn them usually learn them at work. We learned by being thrown into the fire.
You will know what you are doing before the fire starts.

You will have the advantage when you apply for your next job. I for one would like to see your resume.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Pudge. Its great to see the young guys learning this stuff. Most electricians never learn these things. The guys that do learn them usually learn them at work. We learned by being thrown into the fire.
> You will know what you are doing before the fire starts.
> 
> You will have the advantage when you apply for your next job. I for one would like to see your resume.


I'll PM it to you once I get on my laptop.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

pudge565 said:


> Correct, but according to that book the symbol they have there is not for a timed contact of a TR it is for an instantaneous contact of a TR the timed cintacts use the symbols I have in my drawing which are on delay off delay has the arrow on the bottom the opposite direction.
> 
> I can't say one way or the other as I had never dealt with time delay relays nor symbols before.


Bet :laughing:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

From the timing chart, U looks to be instantaneous on and off without a delay. Made in France, Uh huh


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

dronai said:


> From the timing chart, U looks to be instantaneous on and off without a delay. Made in France, Uh huh


My diagram is instant? If so my damn book is wrong.

EDIT: NVM got it. U is the coil, R2 is capable of being an instantaneous or timed contact depending on the position of a dip switch, butbi can't get it to actually work like a timed contact.


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## beardie (Sep 12, 2013)

Maybe you can run the red light through the normally open on the motor thermal overloal


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

What does NCTO mean?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

mr hands said:


> What does NCTO mean?


normally closed, timed open


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

beardie said:


> Maybe you can run the red light through the normally open on the motor thermal overloal


Negative that would only activate the red indicator if the motor goes out on an OL, not if the timer times out on a sensed jam.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Pudge,

I would do your homework for you if I could see the pictures.

I hope our median GPA has greatly improved.


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