# Garvin Color Coded Wire Marker ad in EC&M, far fetched?



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah, we had a discussion on that a week or so back, and it was concluded that there's no violation by using ordinary wire markers.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Greenblinker said:


> I saw this ad in EC&M this month on page C24 and it seems to me like they are stretching the need for them. Does anyone really see the traditional white wire markers as being a code violation like the ad suggests?



Take a look at this thread...http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/how-code-violation-21644/


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

Awesome, I will continue using my boring white labels until someone starts making sparkly glitter labels. Those will really set my installation apart.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm waiting for wire markers to come out with themes like they have for BandAids.

You know: Ninja Turtles, Spiderman, Hello Kitty, SpongeBob, Muppets......


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'm waiting for wire markers to come out with themes like they have for BandAids.
> 
> You know: Ninja Turtles, Spiderman, Hello Kitty, SpongeBob, Muppets......


Why wait? Come up with some designs and get a patent on them and start production. We can upsell them for an increased cost with matching stickers for the panel cover.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Greenblinker said:


> Awesome, I will continue using my boring white labels until someone starts making sparkly glitter labels. Those will really set my installation apart.


 Sparkly may not be such a good idea!:laughing::laughing:


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

What about branded ones... Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci...We can have seasonal collections to. "Oh Mrs Robinson, you got your main distribution panel just in time for our spring collection."


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Greenblinker said:


> What about branded ones... Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci...We can have seasonal collections to. "Oh Mrs Robinson, you got your main distribution panel just in time for our spring collection."


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Greenblinker said:


> Awesome, I will continue using my boring white labels until someone starts making sparkly glitter labels. Those will really set my installation apart.



Can't wait for the supply house to get them in stock, can ya?








​


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

I saw the same add in Electrical Contractor Feb 2011 pg 126 and I posted a similar question about this product over at MH.

I also sent an email to Garvin about it.
Someone called me a couple of hours later and said that these markers were "developed" by a licensed electrician, but could not explain why the statement "code violation in in their add.

He told me that the electrician would be calling me to explain why it is a code violation.

I won't be holding my breath waiting for him. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

tkb said:


> ....................He told me that the electrician would be calling me to explain why it is a code violation.
> 
> I won't be holding my breath waiting for him. :thumbup:


The real answer will be, "Well, they (Garvin) paid me a lot of money!"


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## Dierte (May 12, 2009)

Look at the picture again guys. They're calling it a code violation because the pic on the left, the Red and Blue numbers are crossed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dierte said:


> Look at the picture again guys. They're calling it a code violation because the pic on the left, the Red and Blue numbers are crossed.



A code violation according to............? :001_huh:


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## Dierte (May 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> A code violation according to............? :001_huh:


 According to no one. That's just the only difference I can see between the two. Maybe somewhere there's an inspector who cares. On the other hand it doesn' take a rocket surgeon to figure out multiples of 6 to number correctly.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

Like stated above I believe it's a code violation because of the incorrect phasing of the wires that's the code violation. Now these little handy dandy markers make it so you think about what color goes with which phase and mark it correctly. That's what I'm coming up with at least.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Scantone said:


> Like stated above I believe it's a code violation because of the incorrect phasing of the wires that's the code violation. Now these little handy dandy markers make it so you think about what color goes with which phase and mark it correctly. That's what I'm coming up with at least.


If you think it is a code violation, please state the article.
I doubt that you can because it doesn't exist.

Colors on phases are not determined in the code.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

I no theirs not in the code book ahj will have their set ways they want phases marked as well as the power company and at the end of the day it's a code violation if they say it is


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Scantone said:


> I no theirs not in the code book ahj will have their set ways they want phases marked as well as the power company and at the end of the day it's a code violation if they say it is


If you just cower to the AHJ without any justification you are wasting money.
The power co has no say in the building wiring.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

tkb said:


> If you just cower to the AHJ without any justification you are wasting money.
> The power co has no say in the building wiring.


No the power company do sent but they sure do appreciate a phasing they have come to expect when hooking up to your service conductors. Also when it's your business you will learn real quick how important it is to get along with all inspectors. Even when what their saying is bs. Also for a few more bucks I think they are worth it they look nice to me on the wire a heck of alot better then a white tab. It's little things like that that set you apart from the crowd. Some people dont care how things look others have nightmares over a wire striped a little to much on a breaker.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Scantone said:


> No the power company do sent but they sure do appreciate a phasing they have come to expect when hooking up to your service conductors. Also when it's your business you will learn real quick how important it is to get along with all inspectors. Even when what their saying is bs. Also for a few more bucks I think they are worth it they look nice to me on the wire a heck of alot better then a white tab. It's little things like that that set you apart from the crowd. Some people dont care how things look others have nightmares over a wire striped a little to much on a breaker.


I am not saying that the markers might be a good idea.
What I have a problem with is that they say it is a code vilation not to use them.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

Ic what you mean. But hey look at it this way his or their advertisement got our attention maybe not in a positive way but what's the old saying bad publicity is better then none


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I say boycott Garvin MFG. for dubious statements, outright lying, and misrepresentation.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

The code violation occurs when you identify the phase colors as being A=black, B=red, C=blue at the panelboard, and then use red wire for circuit #5. I personally think using the same colors consistently throughout a building is a good idea. It's not foolproof and I don't always trust that someone used the correct colors, but it still helps in installations and troubleshooting. 

I think it's a cool product and it would be cool to use on a new installation. Where I am currently working they would be useless because anything goes.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

tkb said:


> If you think it is a code violation, please state the article.
> I doubt that you can because it doesn't exist.
> 
> Colors on phases are not determined in the code.


canadian code:

4-036 colour of conductors

3) Where colour-coded circuits are required, the following colour coding shall be used...
a: 1 phase ac or dc (2 wire) 1 black and 1 red or 1 black and 1 white (where identified conductor is required);
b: 1 phase ac or dc (3 wire) 1 black, 1 red, and 1 white; and
c: 3 phase ac - 1 red (phase A), 1 black (phase B), 1 blue (phase C), and 1 white (where neutral is required)

and though I can't quite find it in my code book, isolated circuits in hospitals and stuff are orange brown yellow and it's not a 600v thing. But some people make that mistake.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CFL said:


> The code violation occurs when you identify the phase colors as being A=black, B=red, C=blue at the panelboard, and then use red wire for circuit #5. .............



But it's NOT a code violation to use A=black, B=blue and C=red.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> But it's NOT a code violation to use A=black, B=blue and C=red.


Ken, some people just won't get it.... :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Ken, some people just won't get it.... :no:



They should read 90.1(C) then.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Can't wait for the supply house to get them in stock, can ya?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



bling bling.....


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

480sparky said:


> They should read 90.1(C) then.


is it NEC code similar to canadian code? Cuz according to wikipedia, you're black red blue down there. JUST GOTTA have red and blue together. (talking about your flag). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_power

says it's mandatory in canada and common practice in USA.

Looking at the chart, I'd be a poor electrician in China. Yellow Green Red and the neutral blue. Green as a hot and green/yellow as ground. That can't be right hahaha.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Scantone said:


> Also for a few more bucks I think they are worth it they look nice to me on the wire a heck of alot better then a white tab. It's little things like that that set you apart from the crowd.



I honestly can say that I think that they look better with the white tabs as opposed to the colored ones. With the colored tabs, it's harder to see the numbers.....


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Scantone said:


> bad publicity is better then none


It should be "than", rather than "then".....


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

steelersman said:


> It should be "than", rather than "then".....


The advertising says "Insure" rather than "Ensure". I didn't want to correct their spelling, but if you're going to be picky, I will too!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> is it NEC code similar to canadian code? Cuz according to wikipedia, you're black red blue down there. JUST GOTTA have red and blue together. (talking about your flag).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_power
> 
> ...


Ungrounded conductors colors are pretty much an design choice here. There are a few specified, like orange for a hi-leg, but otherwise it's open season. I could use blue, orange & purple for 120/208 and red, yellow and pink for 277/480.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

480 you 'mericans better rectify the situation!!! But seriously, it'd be nice to have things nice and orderly. I think if I were an electrican there, I'd be going wth wth all day. Should be code to have panels labeled properly too. IMHO. That'd be a lot of work for us too.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> 480 you 'mericans better rectify the situation!!! But seriously, it'd be nice to have things nice and orderly. I think if I were an electrican there, I'd be going wth wth all day. Should be code to have panels labeled properly too. IMHO. That'd be a lot of work for us too.



It IS code to have panels labeled properly. It's just too many hacks & DIYers & handymen don't change them after we get done with 'em.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> 480 you 'mericans better rectify the situation!!! But seriously, it'd be nice to have things nice and orderly. I think if I were an electrican there, I'd be going wth wth all day. Should be code to have panels labeled properly too. IMHO. That'd be a lot of work for us too.


It IS Code to label panels properly.

The color code for phases is pretty much standard Blk/R/Blu 120/208 or 120/240 Brn/Or/Yel 277/480 but is NOT required or enforceable. 

Does it make for a nicer, neater job? Yes.
Do I follow proper color coding? Yes
Would I buy color coded wire? Maybe
Is it NEC enforceable? Not currently. 
Do I have to do it? Not at all.

As I said, it's an industry standard and widely accepted but nothing as of right now is making it required. When I open something up and see colored THHN and notice that it's 277/480 colors, I'm not going to assume it's really 277/480 voltage without putting my meter on it first.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

steelersman said:


> It should be "than", rather than "then".....


My bad professor English


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

steelersman said:


> It should be "than", rather than "then".....


This was not missed ......... go hang with Peter D.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> This was not missed ......... go hang with Peter D.


I can't find him.....


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Scantone said:


> Like stated above I believe it's a code violation because of the incorrect phasing of the wires that's the code violation. Now these little handy dandy markers make it so you think about what color goes with which phase and mark it correctly. That's what I'm coming up with at least.


If that is your excuse for the code violation then their pretty colored label pic would also be in error since its numbered the same. 
So what is the proper way to phase those wires and by excepted practice or code?


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

kaboler said:


> 480 you 'mericans better rectify the situation!!! But seriously, it'd be nice to have things nice and orderly. I think if I were an electrican there, I'd be going wth wth all day. Should be code to have panels labeled properly too. IMHO. That'd be a lot of work for us too.


Kaboler what's with the mericans crap? You put the ' in why not just type the "A" its just as easy and proper.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Ps the white labels show better but if I used all black conductors in a run a colored label and number tag may make it easier and quicker to identify. Not that I buy them from these liars. They probably forgot to add the adhesive to them too.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Kaboler what's with the mericans crap? You put the ' in why not just type the "A" its just as easy and proper.


I think Kaboler forgot what continent he lives on. I'm gonna go Google it, but I think it's called North America. So by definition, he's 'merican too.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I think Kaboler forgot what continent he lives on. I'm gonna go Google it, but I think it's called North America. So by definition, he's 'merican too.


Racists aren't always literate.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> *The code violation occurs when you identify the phase colors as being A=black, B=red, C=blue at the panelboard, and then use red wire for circuit #5.* I personally think using the same colors consistently throughout a building is a good idea. It's not foolproof and I don't always trust that someone used the correct colors, but it still helps in installations and troubleshooting.


Bulls**t. Show me the Code article which mandates that the branch circuit wires MUST be matched to the phase colors. There is no such requirement. You can wire ALL of your branch circuit hots in whatever colors you want (except white and green) and still be compliant. The one and only exception would be in hi-leg where the stinger branch conductor must be identified. (Heck, I think even then the BRANCH circuit leg could be any color, it may only be the feeder that MUST be identified..I'll dig through the Code again to make sure.)

With that said, I do agree that using the same color sequence consistently throughout a building is a good idea but again there is NOTHING in the Code that makes it mandatory that you do so. 



tkb said:


> If you think it is a code violation, please state the article.
> I doubt that you can because it doesn't exist.
> 
> *Colors on phases are not determined in the code.*


Exactly. 



Dierte said:


> Look at the picture again guys. They're calling it a code violation because the pic on the left, the Red and Blue numbers are crossed.


You need a new monitor and look again, they are NOT crossed. :whistling2::laughing:



tkb said:


> If you just cower to the AHJ without any justification you are wasting money.
> The power co has no say in the building wiring.


Exactly right again on both counts. Any thing the AHJ tries to enforce had better have an NEC or local written amendment to back it up.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *CFL*  
_*The code violation occurs when you identify the phase colors as being A=black, B=red, C=blue at the panelboard, and then use red wire for circuit #5.* I personally think using the same colors consistently throughout a building is a good idea. It's not foolproof and I don't always trust that someone used the correct colors, but it still helps in installations and troubleshooting. _



mxslick said:


> Bulls**t. Show me the Code article which mandates that the branch circuit wires MUST be matched to the phase colors. There is no such requirement. You can wire ALL of your branch circuit hots in whatever colors you want (except white and green) and still be compliant. The one and only exception would be in hi-leg where the stinger branch conductor must be identified. (Heck, I think even then the BRANCH circuit leg could be any color, it may only be the feeder that MUST be identified..I'll dig through the Code again to make sure.)


The code rule is in 210.5, but it only applies to buildings with more than one nominal voltage system. It does not require you to use colors to identify the conductors by phase and system. It leaves the method to the installer. It does require that the method be posted at all panels, and if the posted method uses colors, then the use of a color other than what is shown on the posting is a violation


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

mxslick said:


> You need a new monitor and look again, they are NOT crossed. :whistling2:



Actually they are. The red and blue wires are labelled with a different number in each pic. So what the ad is trying to say is that the colored labels can help you to not get mixed up....although they are misleading by saying that it violates the code.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

tkb said:


> Racists aren't always literate.


Hey now, we call you Americans because your country doesn't have a name, unlike the Canadians and Mexicans.

And I love America, but I'm racist too, but I love America. I want to live in San Diego and be a spark there! Ah, San Diego.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CFL*
> _*The code violation occurs when you identify the phase colors as being A=black, B=red, C=blue at the panelboard, and then use red wire for circuit #5.* I personally think using the same colors consistently throughout a building is a good idea. It's not foolproof and I don't always trust that someone used the correct colors, but it still helps in installations and troubleshooting. _
> 
> ...


So I am both right and wrong...if the building has only one voltage system, I am correct..but you are right, if more than one system is in place then color coding must be posted and complied with.:thumbsup: 



steelersman said:


> Actually they are. The red and blue wires are labelled with a different number in each pic. So what the ad is trying to say is that the colored labels can help you to not get mixed up....although they are misleading by saying that it violates the code.


LOL I stand corrected on that point... I needed to adjust the color on my monitor. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mxslick said:


> ......... I needed to adjust the color on my monitor. :laughing:



Here...... these'll help.








:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Greenblinker said:


> I saw this ad in EC&M this month on page C24 and it seems to me like they are stretching the need for them. Does anyone really see the traditional white wire markers as being a code violation like the ad suggests?


i like how the fancy labels eliminate math problems and repulls


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Hey now, we call you Americans because your country doesn't have a name, unlike the Canadians and Mexicans.


United Statesians


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> United Statesians


Yankees.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Here...... these'll help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ken!! :thumbup: (I used up my Thanks button earlier.) 

Guess this is what I need to do: 



My gem in the old Like Button Thread said:


> Tie the thanks button into the like button. The like button is tehy gay. That is what you need to operate your thanks button correctly. I bet that your amazing posts are taking too much bandwidth from the thanks button, aren't they. Talk to one of the moderator experts at your favorite electrician's forum. They can explain how to do this and provide you with all of the instructions required to complete the project.
> 
> Problem solved, next question please!


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## mike8487 (Mar 29, 2011)

*awesome labeler*

best labels in the business

http://www.bradyid.com/bradyid/pbpv/Labels,-Markers-and-Tapes~Printer-Tapes-and-Labels~TLS-2200%C2%AE-Thermal-Transfer-Printer-Labels.html

when you've got serious indutrial labeling, you can't beat this machine. 

could someone enlighten me what part of the code says we have to use red and blue wires and brown, orange and yellow colors? its quite clear as far as what color the grounded wire is and what color the equipment ground is but i haven't seen what color is dedicated for an ungrounded conductor.
thanks


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mike8487 said:


> ...............could someone enlighten me what part of the code says we have to use red and blue wires and brown, orange and yellow colors? .........


That's the point...... there isn't a Code.



mike8487 said:


> ...............its quite clear as far as what color the grounded wire is and what color the equipment ground is but i haven't seen what color is dedicated for an ungrounded conductor.
> thanks


Well, there is orange........


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Yankees, I guess that's true.

But would that apply to Northern Americans? Hahahaha, that'll piss you sticklers off.

If Yankees is a group of people, would we be calling the country "Yanke"?


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

mike8487 said:


> best labels in the business
> 
> http://www.bradyid.com/bradyid/pbpv/Labels,-Markers-and-Tapes~Printer-Tapes-and-Labels~TLS-2200%C2%AE-Thermal-Transfer-Printer-Labels.html
> 
> ...


 I've discussed this with master electricians in the 'states before, and I'm convinced that there is no code regarding what colour conductors must be, with the exception of the bonding/ground and neutral. Interestingly enough, in Canada there *is* a rule.

4-036 Colour of conductors
(1) Insulated grounding or bonding conductors shall
(a) have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes; or
(b) if larger than No. 2 AWG, be permitted to be suitably labelled or marked in a permanent manner
with a green colour or green with one or more yellow stripes at each end and at each point where
the conductor is accessible.
(2) Conductors coloured or marked in accordance with Subrule (1) shall be used only as grounding or bonding
conductors.
(3) Where colour-coded circuits are required, the following colour coding shall be used, except in the case of
service-entrance cable and when Rules 4-030, 4-032, and 6-308 may modify these requirements:
(a) 1-phase ac or dc (2-wire) — 1 black and 1 red or 1 black and 1 white*† (where identified conductor
is required);
(b) 1-phase ac or dc (3-wire) — 1 black, 1 red, and 1 white*†; and
(c) 3-phase ac — 1 red (phase A), 1 black (phase B), 1 blue (phase C), and 1 white* (where neutral is
required).
*Or grey
†Or white with coloured stripe (see Rule 4-028)
(4) Where the midpoint of one phase of a 4-wire delta-connected secondary is grounded to supply lighting
and similar loads, the conductors shall be colour-coded in accordance with Subrule (3) and the phase A
conductor shall be the conductor having the higher voltage-to-ground.
(5) Where a panelboard is supplied from a 4-wire delta-connected system, the grounded conductor referred
to in Subrule (4) shall be located in a compartment provided for single-phase connections and the phase
conductor having the higher voltage-to-ground shall be suitably barriered from that compartment.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> Yankees, I guess that's true.
> 
> But would that apply to Northern Americans? Hahahaha, that'll piss you sticklers off.
> 
> If Yankees is a group of people, would we be calling the country "Yanke"?



Go anywhere in the world and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone in the USA.

Go anywhere in the USA and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone north of the Mason-Dixon line.

Go north of the Mason-Dixon line and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's those living in New England.

Go to New England and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone in Vermont.

Go to Vermont and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone who puts cheese on their apple pie. :laughing:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Greenblinker said:


> I saw this ad in EC&M this month on page C24 and it seems to me like they are stretching the need for them. Does anyone really see the traditional white wire markers as being a code violation like the ad suggests?


This is another brand but there all white and they slide on to your wire kinda the same story waste of money !

We were given these by a rep one day during our termination time on lots of panels what we found was it did not save time .

Heres why they come in a package with one thur nine numbers only you have to make up your combo high numbers above nine if thats what your showing on your post .

Well if you have 250 panels on a commercial site its a joke to use this product you actually waste time getting these off the sticks they put these on and you then have to push them over your insulation on a wire before your tighten it down into the breaker . Try sliding these over wire is a joke this wasnt made buy a electrician who worked in the field .

Its a labor waste of time and electricians hate extra work !

So i can tell you my guys trashed the free stuff in the trash !


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Go to Vermont and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone who puts cheese on their apple pie. :laughing:


Apple pie without the cheese is like a hug without the squeeze!

Make mine old cheddar...


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Go anywhere in the world and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone in the USA.
> 
> Go anywhere in the USA and ask someone what a Yankee is, and they'll say it's someone north of the Mason-Dixon line.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha, I don't understand the New England thing, but the rest is great!


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Hahahaha, I don't understand the New England thing, but the rest is great!


You wouldn't.


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