# meter box rusted outside



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I've seen this a few times. The inside of the boxes are generally OK, but old. In this case it's not under a downspout, no sign of gutter leakage etc (not now anyway). The cable seems in reasonably good condition. What the heck causes the OUTSIDE of a box to rust completely this way?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Poor paint back in the day. 40-50 year old meters all look like that around here.


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Well paint doesn’t last forever, but it’s a testament to the over engineered steel alloy the pan is made from. An hour with a wire brush and some 80 grit sandpaper then some gray Rustoleum brushed on would transform that meter pan.


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

One of the reasons a lot of MFG's use powder coating instead of paint. 

I was working in Hawaii and noticed that the majority of the residential panels were all CH/Eaton. I was riding around with the head sales man for the area I asked why. CH has the best powder coating process. Sea air every where must have been true.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> An hour with a wire brush and some 80 grit sandpaper then some gray Rustoleum brushed on would transform that meter pan.


So would an upgrade to 200 amps. Might be quicker, too.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

SWDweller said:


> One of the reasons a lot of MFG's use powder coating instead of paint.
> 
> I was working in Hawaii and noticed that the majority of the residential panels were all CH/Eaton. I was riding around with the head sales man for the area I asked why. CH has the best powder coating process. Sea air every where must have been true.


Interesting. If/when I get it open, I'll check out the brand. Milbank is quite common around here, probably the market leader. This problem is rare.


----------



## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

On the Oregon coast they specify stainless steel meter bases. Even stainless corrodes. If I worked there ( I don't) I would paint the stainless steel anyway, just to give the meter base some extra life


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

mikewillnot said:


> So would an upgrade to 200 amps. Might be quicker, too.


Unless the loads have changed or the homeowner wants a bigger service for a EV charger, why? I doubt you can swap
out the service in the time it could be cleaned and repainted.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

The outside rust first because the paint gets broken down from UV degradation. The inside received no UV exposure. Newer or more expensive formulations as well as powder coats are more UV resistant, just like car paints today.

If you were to recoat them look for a formulation that is UV resistant. Or install it where there is less UV exposure. Even PVC degrades in the full sun.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> Unless the loads have changed or the homeowner wants a bigger service for a EV charger, why? I doubt you can swap
> out the service in the time it could be cleaned and repainted.


The loads have changed, and the homeowner wants a bigger service, and I was kidding about the time.


----------



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

CMP said:


> Even PVC degrades in the full sun.


hahahahahahah. full sun. hahahahahahah


----------



## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

Are you still allowed to do a service like that?? Man, that would be sooo easy!!


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Sometimes the opposite happens- water leaking in through the top or occasionally the utility connects and the connection is higher than wxhd and water sneaks in with the electrons. Had a good one last year where it made it all the way in to the panel and down onto the busses. From an outside look, everything seems fine.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

That should teach you to seal the load side of your wiring exit from the meter can, so that leaks in the mast/ weather head do not continue on down to the load center. It happens on small and large services regularly.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

I had a small 60 amp panel inside an outbuilding that looked like that.
Mine rusted due to the chlorine tablets I kept in the shed for the pool.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

CMP said:


> That should teach you to seal the load side of your wiring exit from the meter can, so that leaks in the mast/ weather head do not continue on down to the load center. It happens on small and large services regularly.


In one case, the water was dripping off of the line lugs onto the load lugs and in to the panel inside of the insulation. In that case, the infiltration was due to dried up mastic. In another case, poco left their connections higher than the weatherhead and infiltration occurred at the top, into the base. Again, under the insulation. Are you suggesting sealing the cut ends of the wire?


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

WannabeTesla said:


> Are you suggesting sealing the cut ends of the wire?


Yes, exactly that. A lesson learned many years ago at one of my own homes. I moved and upgraded an overhead service, fabricated a rigid offset riser, overhead meter can, then a SE cable into the basement loadcenter. Weeks later while running some branch circuits to the loadcenter, I noticed water running down inside the SE cable, right into the main breaker terminals. Never a good thing, especially on something you had just replaced.

Water from inside the mast was dripping straight down through the center of the meter, and into the SE cable. It was not due to a sloppy job. That mast was custom fabricated, welded on angle iron mounting brackets (NEC violation), and triple coated etch primer paint job, before installation. The SE cable at the bottom exiting the meter can was splayed open, training the conductors to each side of the meter lugs. It acted as a funnel to direct the drippings directly into the cable assembly. Where at the bottom end the cable conductors acted as a hose to direct the water into the lugs of the main breaker and neutral bar.

The fix was to caulk up the upper end of the SE cable jacket to prevent the water entry at the source. I made the sealant higher in the center of the cable, encapsulating the conductors, so any leaks would drain to the enclosure, instead of the jacket. The Milbank meter cans used here had two 1/4" knockouts in the bottom, that could be used for drainage, or grounding electrode conductors. Opening these holes to allow for drainage, or making your own, allows for drainage and air circulation to dry up any excess moisture accumulation, to prevent rotting the interior.

Later on I learned that these type "water leaks" are sometimes not really liquid leaks at all, and do occur on many type of conduit runs. It is usually due to *air circulation* through the conduit system. If air can travel through the conduit, so can humidity. When humid air enters and travels to a cooler surface, it condenses and forms liquid water in the conduit system. With enough condensation buildup, it develops into a "water leak" eventually destroying connected equipment. The NEC has a passage that states that conduits shall be arranged to drain, but many installers never realize that condensation needs a place to drain as well, or that the conduit system needs to be sealed to prevent the entrance of humid airflow for long life of the connected equipment.

Whenever I install Bell boxes or 3R rain-tite enclosures outdoors or where subject to wide temperature swings, I always drill two 3/16" drain/vent holes at opposite sides of the enclosure bottom to allow for drainage and cross ventilation to dry out any collected moisture or humidity. Even better is to also plug each of the conduit ends to prevent the passage of air. Duct seal is the approved method, many times I will use a piece of plastic trash bag or similar to pack into the conduit ends, if I need easy access for future modification.

I can give many examples I have seen over the years, but not to bore you, I'll give one more personal one from a few years back at my shop. I needed to install a couple of communication dish antennas on the flat roof. Fabricated a strut rack to hold the antenna mast, a disconnect for a A/C condenser disconnect, and a 120V GFCI service outlet. Drilled the roof and bolted the stand and diagonal braces thru the bar joists centers. Added two EMT conduits for power and communication wiring, stubbed down to the bottom chord of the truss. Sealed up the roof penetrations and pulled and terminated the wiring.

A few weeks later, on a quiet day I hear some dripping up in the mezzanine. Investigating I found that the conduits were dripping from the interior. Dam it, I forgot to plug the conduits, finished the job in the dark and was anxious to test the dish aiming and functionality and get packed up on the roof. Well back up on the roof to plug the conduits, that seemed to take care of the condensation drips. A few months later I heard a few drops again. Sure enough, interior of the conduits again, I failed to go up in the mezzanine and plug the lower end of the conduits. The moisture in the warmer shop air was rising up through the 7' uninsulated EMT conduit stubs hitting my top seal, then condensing and falling back out the bottom end. It just goes to prove with the right atmospheric conditions outside and temperature differential on the inside, it is best to plug both ends from air entry to prevent "water leaks".


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

This is the panel in the pool shed I was writing about.
Shed and pool no longer exist.
Working on a new shed.
Now I have to fix this "gift", the previous owner left.








Plumbing 90's with perforated Plumbing PVC.
No biggie.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

CMP said:


> Yes, exactly that. [...]


1) Cup refill warning violation. 
2) per 300.7 (x)- i always seal at the last point before it enters a controlled climate, and the first point in that controlled climate. I might have missed some, but that's the target. Being relatively new to lanside real world electrical, are you saying this isn't enough- that i should be sealing top and bottom of outside and/or inside conduits- basically the second outside and inside points? I haven't had a chance to see any of my service entrance installs after a decade+. I always insist that hos allow me to run conduit. Very rarely do they insist that i don't. Even if running se, I've been working under the impression that any exterior wall penetration must be in conduit. I know it rarely happens with se cables though. I can't remember the article on that one.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

I posted the photo example to show that the 7' long conduits, were enough to cause an issue, even with the outside end plugged.

*300.7 Raceways Exposed to Different Temperatures.*
(A) Sealing. Where portions of a raceway or sleeve are known to be subjected to different temperatures, and where condensation is known to be a problem, as in cold storage areas of buildings or *where passing from the interior to the exterior of a building, the raceway or sleeve shall be filled with an approved material to prevent the circulation of warm air to a colder section of the raceway or sleeve.* An explosionproof seal shall not be required for this purpose.

In my case shown, the warmer section depends on the time of year, so both ends needed to be sealed, to prevent the condensation in all seasons and weather conditions.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Now that is a unique patina, with a clear coat that could be a collectors item, and the McCoy's price sticker makes it authentic. Whats up with the plumbing pipe and 90's, Is that the feeder to the outbuilding? That could be a changeling pull...


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

backstay said:


> Poor paint back in the day. 40-50 year old meters all look like that around here.


Same here.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

CMP said:


> Yes, exactly that. A lesson learned many years ago at one of my own homes. I moved and upgraded an overhead service, fabricated a rigid offset riser, overhead meter can, then a SE cable into the basement loadcenter. Weeks later while running some branch circuits to the loadcenter, I noticed water running down inside the SE cable, right into the main breaker terminals. Never a good thing, especially on something you had just replaced.
> 
> Water from inside the mast was dripping straight down through the center of the meter, and into the SE cable. It was not due to a sloppy job. That mast was custom fabricated, welded on angle iron mounting brackets (NEC violation), and triple coated etch primer paint job, before installation. The SE cable at the bottom exiting the meter can was splayed open, training the conductors to each side of the meter lugs. It acted as a funnel to direct the drippings directly into the cable assembly. Where at the bottom end the cable conductors acted as a hose to direct the water into the lugs of the main breaker and neutral bar.
> 
> ...












I don't know how many times I have found condensation pooling up in ground fixtures. The easy fix was to drill drain holes in the bottom as you suggested.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> View attachment 159396
> 
> 
> I don't know how many times I have found condensation pooling up in ground fixtures. The easy fix was to drill drain holes in the bottom as you suggested.


I drain drill every wp sealed box i install. I have seen a water level/corrosion line inside a wp box for a gfci recept as much as 1 inch above the bottom


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

CMP said:


> Now that is a unique patina, with a clear coat that could be a collectors item, and the McCoy's price sticker makes it authentic. Whats up with the plumbing pipe and 90's, Is that the feeder to the outbuilding? That could be a changeling pull...


Yep..that's the feeder to the outbuilding.
3 #6 with ground.
I haven't investigated but I believe the cable to be direct burial and the PVC just protection from weed eaters.
There is a second conduit that stubs up inside the building with a 10/2 with ground that was the original circuit.
Now here's the kicker..... the wire and pipe with the 90's was added by the previous owner who happened to be an electrician. 
I'll cut him a little slack, after all he was an outside lineman.


----------

