# Knowledgable Opinions Needed!!!



## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Greetings,


I would like to apologize in advance for the lengthy post, I will try to get all pertinent info across in the most efficient way I can. I appreciate your patience if you make it to the end, lol.


Anyways, I have been a lurker on this forum for many years and fortunately for me most questions or problems I need to solve have been asked and answered by those before me, until now, and that brings me to you tonight.


I am at a crossroads in my career and even more dramatically the trajectory of my life and I need the input of those who have forgotten more than I know about the subjects and all issues surrounding it.


A little background on me. I am in my early 30's. I currently work as a controls and instrumentation technician for a global company. great job and career path unfortunately for a medical reason I can no longer work in the environment's required for the job.


I have only been in this position since the beginning of this year. I recently graduated college with a 2 year degree in Industrial Automation. While in college I served an internship at a Big 3 automaker as a controls engineer. I excelled in this internship and was offered a fulltime position if I was willing to relocate my family, I was not. I declined but not for the relocation issue alone, I learned something about myself, I HATE working in an industrial setting. I love the work but hate the setting. It feels too controlling, too stiff.


Prior to attending college I was a very accomplished low voltage technician in the automotive field for almost 10 years. I am known in my region as the go to guy for electrical issues. Successfully ran a repair shop for 5 years until my business partner passed away in an accident. After a little soul searching I decided I needed a change. I realized that what I had been specializing in the for the past decade was nothing more than various control loops and that knowledge could be applied to many more lucrative enterprises. It was amazing the possibilities I imagine once I looked outside of the four walls of my little shop. This lead me to closing my shop and moving into the controls field.


*Are you still there? I'm almost to the point of the post I promise, lol*


So, here I am a great worker with a wealth of knowledge and strong skillset. I have not only technical knowledge but years of hands on experience and a mind that seems to thrive on troubleshooting and problem solving yet I have no direction.


I know where I want to be I am just not sure how to get there and so I bring this to you.


I love electrical systems, I love electricity. there is something zen that happens when working with it, no stress, just the laws of physics and a few tools. I have no interest in working with mechanical systems at this point in my life. Even more than electrical, I love controls. I love low voltage systems, the design, the troubleshooting, the possibilities. but I hate the industrial setting. I know the automation trend is coming and in many ways already here but not yet in our daily lives.


It will be though, mark my words, and when it does I want to be ready! I will play the long game here.


Since I live in Ohio there is no state issued journeyman electricians. There is only a electrical contractors license. the requirements come down to the counties and my research show only 2 counties have a journeyman's license and I live in neither. this makes the concept of getting experience required(5 years) to obtain a state electrical contractors license(end goal) confusing and convoluted to me, can anyone clear that up?


My plan is to become a commercial(stores, restaurants, etc) electrician, I understand at most companies the residential and commercial positions seem to overlap, which is fine. I am not interested in industrial, lots of opportunity around here just not for me for many reasons.


I would like to obtain my Electrical Contractors license and pursue a path in consulting as the automation industry evolves over the next 5-10 years to include food service, commercial and residential projects. I will continue to pursue controls projects in my off time to become a leader in that market as it evolves.


So how do I do it? I know I can go door to door and will if necessary but how do I present what I am looking for? I don't want to come off as arrogant but I cant for financial reasons and probably shouldn't because of my current knowledge and skillset have to start as a first year apprentice but I don't know how that situation is handled in the industry.


And before anyone asks I would love to go through the union but there is no way I could literally cut my pay by 2/3rds for that long, I have a family to feed. I know I will take a loss in pay at the beginning of this path, but I have to know when low is too low, and thats just too low.


So, I guess that's it, bare it all to strangers on the web, lol


What would you do? 


What should I do? 


How should I approach these companies without coming off as arrogant with a "take your apprenticeship and shove it" attitude?


How do non-union apprenticeships work in Ohio?


How do I showcase my knowledge and experience in the best light?


I am open to any and all ideas, thoughts or follow up questions. Thanks a lot for reading and hopefully chiming in.


-Joe


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just remember macmikeman alway say, when you get to walk into commercial building and fifty hacks have laid hands on the formerly well done original installation and massacred the crap out of it, with overstuffing junction boxes with wire, cutting wire too short at outlets and switches to get the device to come out of the box without a pry bar, or perhaps one million times finding no covers on any of the existing junction boxes and noticing there is all the unused knock outs have been knocked out and no KO seals have ever been used to fill those holes. None of the existing 2x4 lay in fixtures have any support wires, or even quake clips or a screw holding them in to the t-bar, zero labeling in the panels, more debachery like all the do's missing in the panels, breakers stuffed to over what the panel is designed for, and maybe missing the panel cover entirely, that stuff. 
I forgot to mention the emt separated at suspended runs where there might be two places per 100 feet where the guy used a strap of some sort to hold it all up in place and because of that the couplings have come apart and there is exposed live wire between halves of the conduit run dangling there, just waiting to explode in a shower of sparks and flame. Yep. 


Then you will become so wistful for how great the industrial environment you left behind was.....................


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'll try a very brief response to balance things out LOL. 

Not all industrial environments are the same; maybe if you keep an open mind, you can find one that you like. 

One of my customers makes automated materials handling products, their engineers occasionally visit the warehouses and factories where the products are used but most of their days are at their cubes or in their shop. 

Send a resume to Johnson Controls, Honeywell, and other building controls companies. Lots of great paying commercial jobs, around here they're having a hard time finding good people.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Avoiding industrial when you like working with controls normally is a sign that you fear working with higher voltages or hard physical labor. In all honesty if you are good at controls you tend to do very little of either.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

JDW05 said:


> Greetings,
> 
> 
> ...I learned something about myself, I HATE working in an industrial setting. I love the work but hate the setting. It feels too controlling, too stiff....
> ...


Get a self-help book on emotional control. If that right there is effecting your ability to do your job, there will be another reason on the next job. You need to deal with that first. 

I could go on and on and rant about how millennials were taught they are perfect they way they are, how they should constantly tell everyone else about their feelings, etc. but I won't. You were lied to. You are imperfect and you will always will be. You're just like everyone else. Nobody cares about your feelings other than you. Your feelings are your choice. Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. Get a self-help book, go to work, and do the job you spent a lifetime preparing for, in whatever environment the job presents.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

couldn't make it through the op. hopefully your resume doesn't read like that.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Becoming an electrician represents a change in career for you, which comes with a pay cut at first. If you can't accommodate that, stick with controls. You may have some cursorily relevant experience, but not enough to skirt by the needed training to be a qualified electrician. Like splatz said, apply to some of the controls contractors in your area. And like wildleg said, work on brevity in your writing. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

First off, welcome [email protected]!

Secondly, at your age it's about time you buckle down and pick a career choice and stick with it.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Think long term. Electrical is hard on the body. Most electricians hope for a controls job so they can save there knees and back and.......


I work in controls in an industrial environment that is not bad and offers plenty of challenges. If you get into commercial it is going to be just replace this or that, or chase someone else's screw ups.


Good luck
Cowboy


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Wow thanks for all the great replies!


macmikeman - exactly the type of knowledgeable opinions I was hoping to gain, I never even consider that as an issue, thank you!


splatz - Thank you, I will look into those companies deeper! I may continue to look into the BAS route unfortunately have been unable to find anything close enough to me.


gpop - Not wanting to be in an industrial setting has nothing to do with working hard(been doing that from a very young age) or high voltage(I'm respect it for what it is but I am but not scared). I just enjoy a little more freedom in my day to day life.


MikeFL - Wow right away with millennial bashing, way to add a productive post to this thread I really appreciate it! 


To clear things up I am not an attention starved participation trophy needing millennial looking for validation from you on the internet. I simply needed a little quidance with an issue that I thought people here may be able to help with. I apologize if I have triggered you(and you call me the millennial, geez)


Secondly, I do not need self help for not wanting to work in industrial settings. the fact of the matter is I have spent the last 15 years working in small shops where the buck started and ended with me. I was free to come and go as I pleased and was not tied in to the over bloated rules and regulations of a top heavy global company. Life is too short to spend most of my waking time in a environment I am unhappy in. I will not apologize from my pursuit of a path that fits who I am better than that. Give me a service truck and a stack of work orders, that is the environment I thrive in.


wildleg - afraid I don't see the point in your taking time to make that pointless and unneeded post but whatever, you do you I guess


B-Nabs - I really appreciate the post, I understand I will have to take a pay cut but going from $80-100k yr to $16/hr with little OT is just not feasible otherwise I would be in the union as soon as they would take me. I also was not implying that I desire to skirt the training required, I just am not sure how it handled when someone joins the field well above first level apprentice yet not ath that electrician level yet. I was curious as to the paths available to me.


I also did not realize I was required to write cliff notes and keep my messages as brief as possible on this board. I will be sure to read through the rules a little more carefully I suppose. 


So to you and wildleg, I apologize for the inconvenience I was simply trying to pass and relevant information about the situation I could think of to help get the best advice I could receive.


MechanicalDVR - Amen brother! I couldn't agree more so help me figure this out lol.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Think long term. Electrical is hard on the body. Most electricians hope for a controls job so they can save there knees and back and.......
> 
> 
> I work in controls in an industrial environment that is not bad and offers plenty of challenges. If you get into commercial it is going to be just replace this or that, or chase someone else's screw ups.
> ...



Thanks Cowboy!


I understand the hard on the body aspect. it was a big deciding factor in my path away from the automotive field a few years back.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I dont understand what freedom is.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

gpop said:


> I dont understand what freedom is.


Some jobs and career fields have more freedom than others. Industrial settings seem to be very low on the scale.

I have always had the freedom to come and go as I please. No security check points to go to work. No rules saying I cannot run to Burger King for my lunch break, etc. etc. I come from small shops, a garage rat if you will. Working in a large scale industrial facility is night and day difference from what I am used to and cormfortable with.

I understand we have to adjust and make do sometimes but I will not settle when I know for a fact other opportunities that suit me better exist.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

JDW05 said:


> I have always had the freedom to come and go as I please. No security check points to go to work. No rules saying I cannot run to Burger King for my lunch break, etc. etc.QUOTE]
> 
> You just have to find the right place, look for companies with 50-100 people.
> 
> I go out to burger king every day with no check point. I do what I want all day as long as I got things running. That is what a control guy does.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> JDW05 said:
> 
> 
> > I have always had the freedom to come and go as I please. No security check points to go to work. No rules saying I cannot run to Burger King for my lunch break, etc. etc.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

An Ohio guy may chime in or contact the state.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

just the cowboy said:


> Think long term. Electrical is hard on the body. Most electricians hope for a controls job so they can save there knees and back and.......Cowboy


Not sure where you worked Cowboy, but I was always on my knees and hurting my back while I did control work.

Lets be honest. Control work, electronics, drives and gearing do not happen standing in front of a control panel or PLC.
You will be under, on top and sideways of the machines you work on.
I guess if you are a PLC programmer, you get to sit all day while us control, guys check and help you all day. I know, as I did that for years until I became the in house PLC programmer.

Hard to verify the limit switch is good 100' below the floor. Or 100' above.
We can watch the input turn on and off. But what if it doesn't show anything?

Building control panels is a shop/bench job. Control work is everything including climbing up on top of a silo. Or going down into a pit.

In an industrial environment, as a controls guy, be prepared to climb, squat, kneel, stand for hours and go under and around all types of equipment. Get dirty too.
Of course there is always that guy.
You know the one who volunteers to do the dirty work. But really can you trust someone who knows nothing about what you are doing? 

Maybe he can actuate the switch in question. But can he remove it and replace it while you enjoy the view form the control panel?

Nope. Controls is a great thing. But it is far from gravy.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

So the thing about yesterday was I was finishing a remodel in the Mauna Luan and looking out the window directly onto the swimming pool four stories below. It was awesome. Take my word on this. And the weather was perfect because we left summer exactly 1 week ago, and now the trades are blowing 30 just aft of starboard. It's great work, and zero controls to deal with. WHOOP WHOOP


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

splatz said:


> I'll try a very brief response to balance things out LOL.
> 
> Not all industrial environments are the same; maybe if you keep an open mind, you can find one that you like.
> 
> ...


You forgot my old stompin grounds, Siemens Building Controls.

They would welcome you with open arms and wads of cash.

Maybe you could be a sales rep for the controls you have worked with?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Maytag man*



John Valdes said:


> Not sure where you worked Cowboy, but I was always on my knees and hurting my back while I did control work.
> 
> .



Yes I have holes in the knees of my pants. But it is only about 10% of the time that I need to abuse my body.


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

Curious as to what the medical reason is, aside from just general dislike of industrial environments...

Seems like you might be able to solve this problem with just some changes in work culture and environment. So far you've mentioned "big 3 auto" and a global company, those tend to have lots of very rigid procedures to ensure an operation that large will run smoothly. You mentioned working in a shop before, so that's quite a stretch. The other difference I notice is that you're probably been doing shift work, vs. task based (you mentioned preferring work orders).

You may want to consider looking for something with industrial control applications that isn't shift work for large, highly regimented companies. I&C shops, commissioning, things like that?


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

> A little background on me. I am in my early 30's





> Secondly, I do not need self help for not wanting to work in industrial settings. the fact of the matter is I have spent the last 15 years working in small shops where the buck started and ended with me.


Quite a bit of freedom and authority for a 15-18 year old.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Chops146 said:


> Quite a bit of freedom and authority for a 15-18 year old.


Sure not always shop foreman especially in the beginning but it didn't take long, started working in shops at 17, wrenching long before that. 

Running(not owned) an independent muffler shop before my 20th birthday. Ran a few others after that and had my own shop by 25. Ran successfully and profitable for over 5 years. Unfortunately could not continue.

Even when not store manager or lead tech a line level technician is pretty much responsible for a project from beginning to completion, his paycheck rides on his attitude and a successful outcome. So in a healthy independent shop environment the buck will pretty much stop and end with mid level techs and up.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Rora said:


> Curious as to what the medical reason is, aside from just general dislike of industrial environments...
> 
> Seems like you might be able to solve this problem with just some changes in work culture and environment. So far you've mentioned "big 3 auto" and a global company, those tend to have lots of very rigid procedures to ensure an operation that large will run smoothly. You mentioned working in a shop before, so that's quite a stretch. The other difference I notice is that you're probably been doing shift work, vs. task based (you mentioned preferring work orders).
> 
> You may want to consider looking for something with industrial control applications that isn't shift work for large, highly regimented companies. I&C shops, commissioning, things like that?


Thanks for the response, I currently work in a chemical refining operation(makes up majority of the workforce here) and had the lower lobe of my right lung removed a few months ago. The problem is genetic and was solved by surgery but my lung function is hindered now and even with extensive work with pulmonologists I am still unable to pass the required respirator fitness test which will rendered me unemployable in a majority of companies in my vacinity. Other than refining we have auto makers and suppliers. Some of the suppliers are smaller but still are held to global standards thus bloated global procedures.

I knew the environment would be different and take some mental rearranging on my part but wasn't expecting the pure disdain I have for it. 

Closest thing I could imagine it feels like is turning yourself into jail everyday for 8-12 hrs for the rest of your life, lol, just too much control for me I guess

I have considered joining an integration or commissioning company at least I would get a change of scenery when the job was done but I really feel that for me having an electrical contractors license in the next 10 years will help me accomplish my goals and so I'm looking for an opportunity that not only works me but is also giving my relevent experiece for the board.

I know, keep dreaming I guess, but that's why I'm here asking you guys for input in case I'm not seeing a path that will work.

Thanks again!


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

JDW05 said:


> Thanks for the response, I currently work in a chemical refining operation(makes up majority of the workforce here) and had the lower lobe of my right lung removed a few months ago. The problem is genetic and was solved by surgery but my lung function is hindered now and even with extensive work with pulmonologists I am still unable to pass the required respirator fitness test which will rendered me unemployable in a majority of companies in my vacinity. Other than refining we have auto makers and suppliers. Some of the suppliers are smaller but still are held to global standards thus bloated global procedures.
> 
> I knew the environment would be different and take some mental rearranging on my part but wasn't expecting the pure disdain I have for it.
> 
> ...


I can't speak for how things work where you are, but in my area a person in your position would still have to serve a full apprenticeship.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

you need to have worked on permitted jobs one for each of the last five years to take the contracting license test. study some business books. don't completely turn your back on industrial, figure out exactly what you don't like about it, there's probably some industrial you would like to do, just not everything or for anyone.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

B-Nabs said:


> I can't speak for how things work where you are, but in my area a person in your position would still have to serve a full apprenticeship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the insight!


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> you need to have worked on permitted jobs one for each of the last five years to take the contracting license test. study some business books. don't completely turn your back on industrial, figure out exactly what you don't like about it, there's probably some industrial you would like to do, just not everything or for anyone.


Wiresmith,

I read that on the Ohio website but I still don't understand a few aspects. Are you from Ohio by chance?


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

JDW05 said:


> ...


That is tough, man. Gotta say I can see why you'd want to pursue electrical contracting. It will be tough in terms of jumping through the hoops, but on the other hand, you do have a fair bit of professional clout in your current career stream. I would try to leverage that towards an interim position that could serve as a halfway point towards a license... perhaps industrial or commercial electrician apprenticeships that involve controls/PLC programming. You could move up the "ranks" quickly and learn the important economic factors in the industry, get a license, then start working for yourself.

Hopefully other experienced industrial sparkies will weigh on this course of action...


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

JDW05 said:


> Wiresmith,
> 
> I read that on the Ohio website but I still don't understand a few aspects.


what aspects? you can go online and find the permits you have worked under, submit them with your application. i think you may want to submit a w2's or paystubs with that employer those years as well


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Rora said:


> I would try to leverage that towards an interim position that could serve as a halfway point towards a license... perhaps industrial or commercial electrician apprenticeships that involve controls/PLC programming. You could move up the "ranks" quickly and learn the important economic factors in the industry, get a license, then start working for yourself.
> 
> Hopefully other experienced industrial sparkies will weigh on this course of action...


And this is exactly what I'm here to try and find out. What positions I should be looking for that will allow me to do just that.

I haven't had any luck finding that type of position I'm sure will give me required documentation, etc for a license in 5 years. Let alone one willing to let me start halfway or so through the 'program'. Just not sure what I should be looking for here or how to approach them once I find it without coming off arrogant/ignorant.

Thanks for your input and also for seeing a bit of what I see in my bigger picture.


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> JDW05 said:
> 
> 
> > Wiresmith,
> ...


I guess my biggest unknown is what occupations fall into the scope of the accecptable work.

For instance can an in-house industrial electrician use his experience? I'm sure he works on at least on 1 project a year that requires permitting but I doubt he is listed on the permit.

What about a sign electrician? I can walk right into a position of electrician on a crew servicing and installing mainly high rise and animated commercial signage. I see in some other states that there is a special license for sign electrician but I see nothing for Ohio. I know the company is licensed for electrical work in multiple states.

I also have a good 'in' at an automation systems company as an electrician on the commissioning crew. This would keep me as close to my current training/knowledge as possible I believe but I'm not sure it'll meet state requirements. Again sure it should be permitted but without a state or union structured apprenticeship I'm not sure how to make sure I'm getting what I need.

It comes down to the fact I have a few options I can see working for me(anyone can chime in any others they see lol) but without knowing which careers count and which don't I feel stuck.

Thanks for your time and reply!


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

worked under electrical permitted jobs, job had electrical permit


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## Rora (Jan 31, 2017)

JDW05 said:


> And this is exactly what I'm here to try and find out. What positions I should be looking for that will allow me to do just that.
> 
> I haven't had any luck finding that type of position I'm sure will give me required documentation, etc for a license in 5 years. Let alone one willing to let me start halfway or so through the 'program'. Just not sure what I should be looking for here or how to approach them once I find it without coming off arrogant/ignorant.
> 
> Thanks for your input and also for seeing a bit of what I see in my bigger picture.


Right, so your biggest hurdle will be the fact that most industrial electricians who have PLC programming as one of their primary responsibilities are almost always going to be experienced journeyman. You're not gonna find that in the job description of a new apprentice, and it would suck to have to start at the bottom anyways. I think it might be harder to transition like that than you'd think (I don't think you're gonna find anything that will put you halfway) but here's what I'd consider:

Job postings aren't going to outright say "PLC programmer needed, oh and by the way we'll train you as an electrical apprentice too"... you should look for that implication by considering the market and presence of electrician position a company has, i.e., a PLC programming or I&C type position for a company that also does a lot of electrical work and employs electricians.

Once you've got your foot in the door, you'd want to be working around/with electricians and then press for an apprenticeship. That way you have a decent chance of logging hours while retaining your pay and de-facto position as an experienced I&C guy. That is the strategy I'd employ for myself if I ever pursue a dual ticket (currently in instrumentation).


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## JDW05 (Oct 16, 2018)

Rora said:


> ......


Thank you for your insight, I will continue to work this out and consider all advice given. Thanks again to everyone!


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