# NEC Vs CEC = Canadian VS Oklahoma CIB



## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Just how many and what types of differences do they want you to show? There are a lot of little differences sprinkled throughout both books, some might be important and some are very minor. Personally I found the largest differences between the two were in the sections on grounding and bonding.  
A few years ago I attended a seminar (two days) on the differences between the two through CSA, I'm not sure if they still offer it but it might be worth looking into.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

well, if you want to work in the US, you are going to have to study the whole book, so you might as well just do that and note the differences as you go ? while you are at it, you could assemble it into a sensible form and maybe sell it on the internet for others who want to do the same.


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

gardiner said:


> Just how many and what types of differences do they want you to show? There are a lot of little differences sprinkled throughout both books, some might be important and some are very minor. Personally I found the largest differences between the two were in the sections on grounding and bonding.
> A few years ago I attended a seminar (two days) on the differences between the two through CSA, I'm not sure if they still offer it but it might be worth looking into.



I'll have to see if they have anything like that here in Oklahoma, (the seminar) as i cannot leave till have my A number.
I believe they want big differences.

I plan on doing this and amking it available for other people planning on challenging Construction Industries boards in any state.


So far i have AFCI protection, GFCI protection, Panel clearances, theres alot it seems


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

wildleg said:


> well, if you want to work in the US, you are going to have to study the whole book, so you might as well just do that and note the differences as you go ? while you are at it, you could assemble it into a sensible form and maybe sell it on the internet for others who want to do the same.


I plan on doing just that


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mikey137 said:


> Hey guys, I had no idea where to post this, it seems i am the first 309a (construction & maintenance electrician) to challenge the unlimited journyman test in Oklahoma.
> 
> I have been told i must show the differences between the codes and that i acknowledge the NEC's Differences, Before i can take the test.
> 
> ...


I need a copy of the CEC to tell you that,,Have a spare on?:laughing:


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> I need a copy of the CEC to tell you that,,Have a sore on?:laughing:


I do https://rrcteachereducation.wikispaces.com/file/view/CEC+2009.pdf


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, I know of a few off the top of my head. (only from what I read on these forums)

If you have a MWBC here in Canada, you do not need to tie the breaker unless the circuits terminate at the same device. If you are terminating an 208 AC unit or a split receptacle for example, then you need to tie. If you are running 3 separate lighting circuits (for example) and sharing a neutral, you do not.

Neutral at switch, not required here.

Splice in a panel, not allowed here.

Im sure you could find many differences in just the layout of the book, how sections are organized, etc.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Cujo said:


> Splice in a panel, not allowed here.


But it is.

Also AFCI requirements seem different. Colour coding seems to be different.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> But it is.
> 
> Also AFCI requirements seem different. Colour coding seems to be different.


You can't in Alberta under any circumstance. I'm not sure about Ontario, I don't think you can in new construction there but in renos I think you can.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

In new construction why would anyone? to use up scrap wire from the floor?

Can you post a link, or picture of some sort of document that says you cant in Alberta? I have a real hard time believing anything of the sort exists. But stranger things have come from Alberta! :laughing:


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Cujo said:


> You can't in Alberta under any circumstance. I'm not sure about Ontario, I don't think you can in new construction there but in renos I think you can.


There are a lot of panels with splices in them in Alberta.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

gardiner said:


> There are a lot of panels with splices in them in Alberta.


I see code violations all the time as well.



> Can you post a link, or picture of some sort of document that says you cant in Alberta?


The CEC says you can't. Others interpret it differently, but it is enforced this way here. Alberta Beef is an inspector, and if he chimes in here I'm sure he will verify the claim.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I think some of the more obvious ones would be panel orientation, no connectors on cables entering the panel, branch circuit conductors “passing through” the service entrance area.

Cheers

John


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Cujo said:


> I see code violations all the time as well.
> 
> Can you quote me the code it violates? I’ve seen people look into the code book and read the first part of a sentence and believe they know the entire meaning. I have also seen many people that read sections of the code and do not relate it to Appendix “C” for the Organization and rules of procedure. Not to mention how many times someone that isn’t that good with English punctuation principals, misreads a section.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

gardiner said:


> Cujo said:
> 
> 
> > I see code violations all the time as well.
> ...


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

Cujo said:


> I see code violations all the time as well.
> 
> 
> 
> The CEC says you can't. Others interpret it differently, but it is enforced this way here. Alberta Beef is an inspector, and if he chimes in here I'm sure he will verify the claim.


This one is pretty contentious it seems. I am looking further into it for some solid clarification.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

AlbertaBeef said:


> This one is pretty contentious it seems. I am looking further into it for some solid clarification.


When I worked in ontario, people did it all the time. When I moved to Alberta, I have never seen anyone think it is acceptable.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

6-212 `shall not be used as junction boxes for *feeding through* or *tapping off* to other apparatus` why is this unclear in the province of Alberta:blink:


Dedicated circuits for residential washrooms I think is a NEC code?


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

eddy current said:


> 6-212 `shall not be used as junction boxes for *feeding through* or *tapping off* to other apparatus` why is this unclear in the province of Alberta:blink:


I believe the reason it seems to be unclear as many just read the first few words and not the whole sentence. There is no comma after the word boxes, but many act as though there is a comma or period there.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

That rule (6-212(1))clearly states that you are NOT allowed to use the panel as a junction box for tapping off of a circuit or splicing wires that are leaving that panel.


For example.....you can't splice out a new switch loop in the panel. You can't bring a circuit back into the panel and splice it in there and then run that circuit back out to a new device ( plug, light, etc etc) you can't extend a circuit that just happened to be passing by the panel so you figured it was a convient spot to make up the splice.

You can , however; extend an individual conductor in a panel. For example......you find it necessary( for whatever reason) to move circuit number 2 down to circuit number 42 and the conductor isn't long enough to reach. It is perfectly code compliant to splice that wire and move it where you need it in the panel. It has not been extended outside of the panel and it has not passed through the panel.

If someone thinks I'm wrong on this (and that's possible:laughing then give us all a code rule to back it up.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Agreed. 
Another example is when you need to terminate two conductors on one breaker that is not rated for it. You can splice them together and use a short tail to the breaker.

Doorbell transformer


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Another good example......thanks eddy


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## lobstermasher (Apr 16, 2013)

One odd difference off the top of my head : High leg delta 

US high = black, Canada high leg = red......no idea why the difference.


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

mikey137 said:


> Hey guys, I had no idea where to post this, it seems i am the first 309a (construction & maintenance electrician) to challenge the unlimited journyman test in Oklahoma.
> 
> I have been told i must show the differences between the codes and that i acknowledge the NEC's Differences, Before i can take the test.


What the ...? I've never heard of having to show the differences between the CEC and the NEC! Much less - BEFORE you take the test. Must be some new international one world order crap! 

I took my Unlimited Contractor in OK back in 1999...we didn't play that back then!


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## Introyble (Jul 10, 2010)

Holy chit don't get me started. Where in Oklahoma are you just curious.


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

htneighbors said:


> What the ...? I've never heard of having to show the differences between the CEC and the NEC! Much less - BEFORE you take the test. Must be some new international one world order crap!
> 
> I took my Unlimited Contractor in OK back in 1999...we didn't play that back then!



Yea they are telling me that i am the first Canadian Electrician that has sought to challenge the Oklahoma test. Lol

And they told me i had to compare the two, and acknowlege that i know the NEC better than the CEC.


Interesting stuff..


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

Introyble said:


> Holy chit don't get me started. Where in Oklahoma are you just curious.


I'm in Norman, Cleveland County.


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

Hey guys just bees soaking up the NEC, Thanks for your Examples, they are greatly appreciated!!!


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

Mikey137, 

Who exactly is telling you that you - "must show the differences between the codes and that i acknowledge the NEC's Differences, Before i can take the test."? 

There is nothing in the OK electrical licensing rules or laws stating such BS. As long as you are qualified, fill out the app, pay the fees - bingo! Go take the test and pass and you got it!


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

htneighbors said:


> Mikey137,
> 
> Who exactly is telling you that you - "must show the differences between the codes and that i acknowledge the NEC's Differences, Before i can take the test."?
> 
> There is nothing in the OK electrical licensing rules or laws stating such BS. As long as you are qualified, fill out the app, pay the fees - bingo! Go take the test and pass and you got it!




When I called the CIB they said that since i didn't apprentice under the NEC, I would have to sit in front of the CIB committee and plead my case, as far as the similarities and differences between the codes. In order to be granted eligibility to write the OK test.

It was Gary, Apparently he approves who can and cannot take the test.



Mike


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

mikey137 said:


> When I called the CIB they said that since i didn't apprentice under the NEC, I would have to sit in front of the CIB committee and plead my case, as far as the similarities and differences between the codes. In order to be granted eligibility to write the OK test.
> 
> It was Gary, Apparently he approves who can and cannot take the test.
> 
> ...


Gary Williamson is the Head Inspector/Supervisor of the electrical department there. I've never heard of anything like that happening. I'll look again through the OK laws and rules and see if I find anything about this type of thing. I would think as long as you could verify electrical trade experience - from anywhere - you should be approved to test. Then, taking the test based on the NEC would be up to you to know. 

Since you live in Norman, I would suggest you contact Moore-Norman Technology on 12th Ave NW and Franklin. It's in the north part of Norman, a mile north of Tecumseh and a mile west of Porter. Kevin Gunter or David Jackson are the electrical dept instructors there and teach continuing ed classes also. I know Kevin is still there; David teaches continuing ed classes at a Vo-tech down south of Norman in Wayne, OK, but I think he still teaches at Moore-Norman. 

Explain your situation to them and see what they have to say. They're super good guys and damn smart when it comes to the NEC. I know they have NEC classes. I took one from them back in 1999 and passed my electrical contractor's test the first attempt. That was before you had to have a journeyman license for 2 years before getting the contractor license. 

Good Luck!


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## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

OK Journeyman requirements: 

Applicants for an unlimited electrical journeyman examination must be at least eighteen
(18) years of age or older and must verify eight thousand (8,000) hours (4 years) on-the-job
experience in the electrical construction trade, as defined in 90-2 National Electrical Code, under
the supervision of a journeyman or contractor. Experience must be obtained while employed by a
licensed electrical contractor. Six thousand (6,000) of the hours of experience must be verified in
commercial/industrial work. No more than two thousand (2,000) of the hours may be counted as
experience for any combination of verified actual classroom hours of formal electrical education​and/or military electrical experience.

* NEC* *90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered.​*​​​​This _Code _covers the installation of electrical
conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications
conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical
fiber cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures,
mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating
buildings
(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect
to the supply of electricity
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office
buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and
recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a​
generating plant, substation, or control center.


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## mikey137 (Apr 30, 2013)

htneighbors said:


> OK Journeyman requirements:
> 
> Applicants for an unlimited electrical journeyman examination must be at least eighteen
> (18) years of age or older and must verify eight thousand (8,000) hours (4 years) on-the-job
> ...



Thanks much for the info, been working on immigration paperwork, sorry for the late reply.
I will contact the guys at moore Norman and see what they say, atm I have snapz test software and have been studying off that.

Mike


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