# Shorter Apprenticeships?



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm non-union, but thought this article would best be put in this section.

I'm sure some of you guys who put in their full time will have a problem with this.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/sk...g-shortages-of-workers-2m796ah-176114351.html



> *Shorter apprenticeships*
> 
> But faced with looming shortages of workers in the skilled trades, there's renewed interest in apprenticeships - including shorter programs so that it doesn't take four or five years to become a journeyman pipe fitter, carpenter or electrician.
> 
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

k_buz said:


> I'm non-union, but thought this article would best be put in this section.
> 
> I'm sure some of you guys who put in their full time will have a problem with this.
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/business/sk...g-shortages-of-workers-2m796ah-176114351.html





> "The employment prospects aren't bad either, if the economy doesn't tank and companies eventually look to replace thousands of older workers in the skilled trades."


 
Because they are too expensive and slow and have medical problems which increase costs to employers older workers demand top dollar and are smart enough to know When they are getting screwed.




> "Much of the world used to run on apprenticeships, too, although the traditional career path for the skilled trades has been eroded by the loss of manufacturing jobs and declining interest in pipe fitting, machining, carpentry and other hands-on occupations."




Yes because of Unsteady employment the construction trades have to offer when a slowdown in the economy hits everyone gets fired exchept the brown nosers and back stabbers.




> "Wisconsin has about 8,000 apprentices in programs ranging from animal training to "


Well that's good news,I'm sure those animals will really be happy with the pain and agony of the Laboratory.



> "Wisconsin has about 8,000 apprentices in programs ranging from animal training to welding, down 20% from four years ago, according to the Department of Workforce Development."


Gee I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that we do not have enough jobs for all the tradesmen we have sitting on the bench now..:whistling2:

Naaah!!.:blink:



> *"Shorter apprenticeships*
> 
> But faced with looming shortages of workers in the skilled trades, there's renewed interest in apprenticeships - including shorter programs so that it doesn't take four or five years to become a journeyman pipe fitter, carpenter or electrician."


 "We MUST DO A BETTER JOB CONTROLLING THESE PEOPLES WAGES"
So we will lower the standards and make it easy to become a journeyman Electrician so we can really flood the trades and cut their wages down to what they should be getting because THEIR DIRTY PEOPLE AND they did not go to Harvard like we did We must prevent them from making enough money to live on like before"

We all know who these people are and they have been saying this for the 38 years I've been in the trade.

You can find this same BS type article in 1970,1980,1990,2000,and now it does not matter it is an attack on the professionalism of our trade.


I get calls everyday from Journeymen Electricians looking for a job.


As for veterans giving them some credit is fine with me, but no one else should get a free ride.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

...I remember this same thing 25..30 years ago...they set up a 90 day wonder program...we use to "wonder" what they were teaching guys....I did 2 years in high school then 4 more years after....there is just sooooooo much to learn and now there is way more tech stuff....so in the nut shell NO way NO how....:no: ....you could spend 2 years studying motors and their systems alone!!!...the suits think if you get dirty ya can't be to smart...:no:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I'm non-union, but thought this article would best be put in this section.
> 
> I'm sure some of you guys who put in their full time will have a problem with this.http://www.jsonline.com/business/sk...g-shortages-of-workers-2m796ah-176114351.html


I think this has some serious potential, especially the programs that encourage our veterans into the workforce.

Good, safe and properly trained workers benefit everyone, whether union or non union. Raising the level of skill across the trades increases all of our worth.

Currently we are swamped with apprentices but I can see in the near future where this would be a good thing.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

While it has merit, I don't believe it would work for us. I wish there was MORE time to teach the kids what they need to know to hold a job. We have over 2,000 Apprentices here in Local 3. Four years of Empire State College and with 5.5yrs of NJATC training. After A4, we have what is called MIJ year and a half. This is where the Apprentices are supposed to go out on their own before taking their A Test. Basically to be working on a truck, jobbing, thinking for one's self. This year is completely dedicated to Advanced hands on training...be it Code, PLC's, Conduit Bending, whatever the focus they choose. There's simply not enough time to teach the kids coming out everything...you can only hope you've done them a service and given them enough to keep their jobs...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

eejack said:


> I think this has some serious potential, especially the programs that encourage our veterans into the workforce.
> 
> Good, safe and properly trained workers benefit everyone, whether union or non union. Raising the level of skill across the trades increases all of our worth.
> 
> Currently we are swamped with apprentices but I can see in the near future where this would be a good thing.


So you think lowering the standards of the trade is a good thing???:blink::blink:


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

Where I live there is a program where you can do part of your last year in high school as an apprentice. You spend a few weeks of the semester learning about safety and other construction basics, and then you spend the rest of your semester working for a contractor. You get credit for the time worked in your apprenticeship and you also get the credits you need to finish high school. 

Making it shorter, I don't think so. I think 4-5 years should be the minimum. The times are changing. People still think that getting a 4 year arts degree is a better option then getting in to a trade.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> So you think lowering the standards of the trade is a good thing???:blink::blink:


From what I gathered in the article, they number of hours in training increased, the length of the overall training period decreased.

I suspect the number of training hours works out about the same.

So, no, I do not believe we should lower any standards, but if we can get apprentices trained up quicker ( and help veterans out as well ), then I think it could be a good thing.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

The problem here is that Apprentices eventually turn into Journeymen. If you bring up exponentially more JW's than you have retiring you end up with what some of the larger markets have had...an overabundance of new journeymen and the old times not leaving at 60-62...but staying on as long as they physically can. Here in NYC we have a goal of 40yrs of service. After that we don't earn credits anymore. However that's pretty new. My "big brother" and best friend for the last two decades has 44yrs in NOW! He's 62 and just won't retire. I break his balls CONSTANTLY. However, this guy has been a Mentor to me in just about every aspect of the trade. Seeing those guys retire will be a hard blow to us. But they're not retiring quick enough...and we have what...15,000 Inside Wiremen, 1200 City Electricians, 8-9000 M Division (CW/CE) Electricians, 2000 Administration Division guys (office personnel), and the rest of the 30,000 members being smaller divisions...Building Maintenance, Sign, Street Lighting, Divisions...that's not including the Manufacturing Division...who aren't considered "wiremen". 

Apprentices come out at a rate of 2000 a year here...Ha...the cost of their BOOKS alone is unreal! Unlike many locals...we do not charge our Apprentices or Journeymen for ANY course materials. But at 2000/yr entering the "work force"...that puts an enormous strain on the work possibilities for us all...


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> The problem here is that Apprentices eventually turn into Journeymen. If you bring up exponentially more JW's than you have retiring you end up with what some of the larger markets have had...an overabundance of new journeymen and the old times not leaving at 60-62...but staying on as long as they physically can. Here in NYC we have a goal of 40yrs of service. After that we don't earn credits anymore. However that's pretty new. My "big brother" and best friend for the last two decades has 44yrs in NOW! He's 62 and just won't retire. I break his balls CONSTANTLY. However, this guy has been a Mentor to me in just about every aspect of the trade. Seeing those guys retire will be a hard blow to us. But they're not retiring quick enough...and we have what...15,000 Inside Wiremen, 1200 City Electricians, 8-9000 M Division (CW/CE) Electricians, 2000 Administration Division guys (office personnel), and the rest of the 30,000 members being smaller divisions...Building Maintenance, Sign, Street Lighting, Divisions...that's not including the Manufacturing Division...who aren't considered "wiremen".
> 
> Apprentices come out at a rate of 2000 a year here...Ha...the cost of their BOOKS alone is unreal! Unlike many locals...we do not charge our Apprentices or Journeymen for ANY course materials. But at 2000/yr entering the "work force"...that puts an enormous strain on the work possibilities for us all...



I think 40 years of service is just way to long in this trade.
Our magic number is 88 for the double pension payout. 88 is your years of service plus your age. Minimum age of 56. So, you would need 32 fully credited years to grab that extra $2000 a month or whatever it works out to be. To hell with that. I like to see the magic number lowered to 82. Just for a start.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

eejack said:


> From what I gathered in the article, they number of hours in training increased, the length of the overall training period decreased.
> 
> I suspect the number of training hours works out about the same.
> 
> So, no, I do not believe we should lower any standards, but if we can get apprentices trained up quicker ( and help veterans out as well ), then I think it could be a good thing.


The article has nothing to do with veterans,They are Using Veterans as a smoke screen so that they can ease the rules for all not just Veterans ,I thought I made that clear in post #2 

The cost of professional tradesmen labor is way to high for them even with a 6 year recession where 20-50% of the available Professional Tradesmen constantly Under employed.

The last thing we need is a bunch of Moonbats deciding to flood the trades with Apprentices when we have so many professional Tradesmen looking for a job.

Like I said before this type of BS article has been put up every year !1970,1980,1990,2000,2010,2012 .

The only labor shortages there is ,Is a shortage of guys who will work for "FOOD"


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Heck, after my first year as an apprentice I thought "heck, I'm ready to be a j-man" thought the same thing after my 2nd, 3rd and 4th year too. Then after taking my j-man test I kept thinking, "damn, I would have been a terrible sparky if I had tested any sooner." Hard to beat time and experience as a teacher.


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## Vic098 (Oct 27, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> The article has nothing to do with veterans,They are Using Veterans as a smoke screen so that they can ease the rules for all not just Veterans ,I thought I made that clear in post #2
> 
> The cost of professional tradesmen labor is way to high for them even with a 6 year recession where 20-50% of the available Professional Tradesmen constantly Under employed.
> 
> ...


I can't believe I am saying this but, I actually agree with you.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Vic098 said:


> I think 40 years of service is just way to long in this trade.
> Our magic number is 88 for the double pension payout. 88 is your years of service plus your age. Minimum age of 56. So, you would need 32 fully credited years to grab that extra $2000 a month or whatever it works out to be. To hell with that. I like to see the magic number lowered to 82. Just for a start.


I agree with you Vic. I was down in Philly for the big Rally...were you there that day?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> The article has nothing to do with veterans,They are Using Veterans as a smoke screen so that they can ease the rules for all not just Veterans ,I thought I made that clear in post #2


Well if it has nothing to do with helping out vets it is a different story. 

Veterans have already put in time as far as I am concerned - maybe not learning about a trade but certainly learning.

I do apologize for not reading post number 2 - my mind automatically skips post with lots of font and color changes.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> my mind automatically skips post with lots of font and color changes.


Yes, hard to follow those posts.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

eejack said:


> Well if it has nothing to do with helping out vets it is a different story.
> 
> Veterans have already put in time as far as I am concerned - maybe not learning about a trade but certainly learning.
> 
> I do apologize for not reading post number 2 - my mind automatically skips post with lots of font and color changes.


Sorry..

I put the quotes from the article In quotes so you can read it better.

And no matter what they say making the Apprenticeship shorter and hiding behind Veterans is about as low as it gets.

Again this is about flooding the trades with more men when we already have too many sitting at home or under Employed The motive is to lower the standards so that they can lower the wages professional tradesmen are paid.

The fact is there is no labor shortage like they claim ,There is a shortage of people who are willing to work at the minimum wage.

I am all in favor of giving Veterans all the help possible They've already earned it,.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Sorry..
> 
> I put the quotes from the article In quotes so you can read it better.
> 
> ...


Dang Harry, I "thanked" you twice in one thread.  :laughing:


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

I can't see an upside to shortened apprenticeships. All we get are journeypersons with even lower skills. In addition to my 4 year Electrical Program I also did a 3 year High school trades program which went a long way to improving my Trade School marks. If anything longer aprenticeships would be good or after apprenticeship to improve our skills but shorter? Not in my mind.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> While it has merit, I don't believe it would work for us. I wish there was MORE time to teach the kids what they need to know to hold a job. We have over 2,000 Apprentices here in Local 3. Four years of Empire State College and with 5.5yrs of NJATC training. After A4, we have what is called MIJ year and a half. This is where the Apprentices are supposed to go out on their own before taking their A Test. Basically to be working on a truck, jobbing, thinking for one's self. This year is completely dedicated to Advanced hands on training...be it Code, PLC's, Conduit Bending, whatever the focus they choose. There's simply not enough time to teach the kids coming out everything...you can only hope you've done them a service and given them enough to keep their jobs...


Sounds like local 3 has a good program!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> Sounds like local 3 has a good program!



Thanks! Not that I had anything to do with it...LOL. We have one of the most comprehensive training centers in the country. Much of what we do training wise was collaborated with Chicago LU 134 and other Locals Training Directors have come to us and now model their programs similarly. The issue is the NJATC. We do not use their whole program, we mix their program along with our own. Chicago and a few other Locals do this. HA...they don't understand that when they change a book for Apprentices...we have to roll it out to 2000 kids. The last book change cost us over $40000! 

That's a LOT of money for anything...none the less school books!


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

The efficacy of an apprenticeship is based on quality rather than quantity. 

1 year on a truck in a small business troubleshooting and seeing jobs from start to finish > 5 years on megajobs doing assembly line-type repetitive tasks


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

black said:


> The efficacy of an apprenticeship is based on quality rather than quantity.
> 
> 1 year on a truck in a small business troubleshooting and seeing jobs from start to finish > 5 years on megajobs doing assembly line-type repetitive tasks


True [email protected] Guys that make a career out of big jobs can't do much more than big jobs.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Not as true as it used to be. There was a time when there guys that only did deck work. Then this recession hit. Now there is a vast mix up of guys going out on tickets to jobs they've never done before...on both ends of Blacks statement. Guys who had trucks and were jobbers are now going out to decks and deckies are going to shops doing interior work. We do not allow Apprentices to stay at any one shop during their Apprenticeship. 

They are rotated yearly to a different shop doing a different aspect of the industry. One year is usually big projects, another of interior build outs, another of data, etc...all to give the kids a rounded training experience.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

What local are you in Black?


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