# Union apprentice hazing and treatment



## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Eat it and smile. You might be all those things you say you are, but you're not a journeyman wireman, and right now you are doing electrical work, not welding, not maintenance.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

ohmed out said:


> ..........
> I'm not a wimp but as a former Army Ranger I'm not used to bending over and taking it. I never disrespect anyone...on or off the job. I've seen enough bad in the world and a true tough guy doesn't have to belittle others or be disrespectful.
> 
> Your suggestions are appreciated.
> Apprentice aren't supposed to be insubordinate but I'm getting tired of the crap. What would you do...as an apprentice


I don't think you're supposed to talk about this. :whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

JW Splicer said:


> Eat it and smile. You might be all those things you say you are, but you're not a journeyman wireman, and right now you are doing electrical work, not welding, not maintenance.


Seriously??

So he is expected to be treated like sh*t and just take it? Just because someone with more years than him in a different trade thinks they are a big shot?


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

not JW but am human... I don't think I'm great, just giving my background. Eat it and smile does seem to be the best approach, though.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

*You've got some web research to do...*

O.O. -- you are a psychological threat to the other guys. :whistling2:

You are experiencing their compensation mechanism. 

http://michaelwferguson.blogspot.com/p/the-inappropriately-excluded-by-michael.html

You ought to poke around Ferguson's website. :thumbsup:

"My recruiter said I had the highest score on my ASVAB he seen in his 10 years of recruiting..." 

You can bet the word has gotten out. 

I've been in similar jambs, having 'broken the meter' at the national scale on this or that knowledge test... 

[ Wonderlic once threatened to sue over my score. (Heh) HQ sent out a senior manager check me out, build the defense. Wonderlic threw in the towel. The 'impossible' score was for real. ] 

So I know your pain. 

{

The worst flat-out hazing I ever endured resulted after the GF found my ( jaw-dropping ) employment application back at the office -- and scoped me out. He was terrified that his boss -- should he ever figure 'it' out -- would demote him and promote me in his stead. 

I (unwittingly) compounded matters by correcting all of his take-off mistakes. ( seven full sheets of one-lines = a whole lot of pipe and trench. The GF instructed me to scour the (ie his) mark-ups for mistakes. It was my bad luck that I did, and there were many... I did not recognize his handwriting. ( Heh. ) 

I was thus ejected from the job trailer; really puzzling at the time. Let the hazing begin! 

}

The result was no small amount of black balling. This has been a recurrent theme in my professional life. And all I was trying to do was not screw up. 

You are destined to be in the minority -- all of your days. 

Click on the link to see why. :thumbsup:

Cheers.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I


Speedy Petey said:


> Seriously??
> 
> So he is expected to be treated like sh*t and just take it? Just because someone with more years than him in a different trade thinks they are a big shot?


It's not a hazing. The guy is a second year apprentice. He's gonna dig the trench, he's gonna haul the material, he's gonna drive the truck, he's gonna pay his dues just like everyone else. I broke out at 23, you know how many older apprentices I had that thought they should command more respect in the trade than me? Yeah, I'm telling him what he needs to hear. We know nothing of his attendance, grades in school, work ethic, or attitude. 

How many times have you had to jump on a cub a little bit to get them to work, or get off the phone, or recognize a hazard, or just get the point? Some guys get that more than others... 

If you really are being absolutely treated as a sub human, then file a grievance, call the steward and the jatc director, tell them what's going on, and report it to the company HR rep.


And remember it's only 5 years and you're the man.

You're gonna get chewed on, wether you're an ape, a JW, or a GF.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

You can be the super smartest genius cone head, but you're still just a wire twister, and we all make the same dough in the union. You'll find your niche, and if you don't, there's still pipe to be bent and wire to be twisted.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dude.....you are _soooooOOOoo_ in the wrong place for sympathy.....:no:~CS~


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

18 months??? If I was you, I'd begin a period of self-reflection and ask myself what I've done to either draw the ire of my coworkers or what I've done to make myself a target. You shouldn't be treated like that, but if it has continued for 18 months, there's something fundamentally wrong in your personal makeup that you've either permitted it for so long or have done something to perpetuate it for so long.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Do your time, dig and sweep as requested, don't worry about the hazing and just flip the offender the bird.
If they get in your face, remove his head and sh//t down the hole. Then go back to work.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

JW Splicer said:


> I
> 
> It's not a hazing. The guy is a second year apprentice. He's gonna dig the trench, he's gonna haul the material, he's gonna drive the truck, he's gonna pay his dues just like everyone else. I broke out at 23, you know how many older apprentices I had that thought they should command more respect in the trade than me? Yeah, I'm telling him what he needs to hear. We know nothing of his attendance, grades in school, work ethic, or attitude.


I never mentioned "hazing". I get the impression that it is more than just telling him to do his job. 



> Being called a ******, moron, stupid, or being referred to along those lines is starting to get old.



He's doing trade work in NYC. Either I have it wrong and he is an asshole, or he works with a bunch of assholes. I know NYC, and I'd bet it's the latter.




JW Splicer said:


> If you really are being absolutely treated as a sub human, then file a grievance, call the steward and the jatc director, tell them what's going on, and report it to the company HR rep.


Yeah, that'll go over well. :whistling2:


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Ya just gotta suck it up
And take it on the chin
If ya wanna learn !
We all went thru it
Time to man up !


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

Umm it's not part of the job if you work for decent company. I have zero tolerance for that kind of behavior and have fired more then one for pulling that crap with apprentices. Good humor now and then is great for moral but name calling and that garbage shows the low class in people that this trade or any trade can accept. Anyone that says "suck it up" is part of the problem, if you can't teach, support, guide and mentor properly then you should have no business being a journeyman. 

Think it's time for some people to grow up


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

let's make sure that everyone in the program gets through the apprenticeship and does so with a big happy smile. How about a no fail apprenticeship.

Late for work? No problem. Bad grades, no problem. Unsafe? No problem. We will get you through this lil feller!

I don't agree with childish name calling, tool throwing, or rage fits. There are people in every profession who act this way however, and being on the far other side is no better. The trade isn't for everybody.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

With a sharp tongue you can set the AH on his ass. Make sure he looks stupid whenever he attacks you. Pretty soon it won't be fun for him. If need be, take him in the ally and pound him. Worked for me.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 1, 2015)

JW Splicer said:


> let's make sure that everyone in the program gets through the apprenticeship and does so with a big happy smile. How about a no fail apprenticeship.
> 
> Late for work? No problem. Bad grades, no problem. Unsafe? No problem. We will get you through this lil feller!
> 
> I don't agree with childish name calling, tool throwing, or rage fits. There are people in every profession who act this way however, and being on the far other side is no better. The trade isn't for everybody.


Can you be more random? What is wrong though with a guy going to work with a smile? Wouldn't that be nice if more people enjoyed what they do for 8-10 hours a day? The apprenticeship program last I checked does not include harassment and it usually does eliminate those that shouldn't be in it. Late for work, bad grades etc are a totally separate issue because those fall on the apprentice and him alone not some **** being a **** because he thinks he can or should.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Again if he is really being mistreated he can call the director of the jatc, or talk to his steward, and HR rep. 

For the record, I absolutely love this trade and love what I get to do everyday. But I also take the good with the bad. There are different cultures at different shops, areas, and union halls. I understand that NY might be a little different from the rest of the world, but NY turns out some of the best wireman in the country year after year. It's a HUGE area with something like 25000 members in local 3 alone.

I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, but 18 months in, layed off for being "unqualified" 2 months in!!!!?!?!?!?!? 

Seriously? Yeah he's completely unqualified being that green, so what was actually going on?!

And it seems like nobody wants to work with the OP? Even after 18 months? We're only getting one side of the story here, and you can't tell me you've never had a bad apprentice... Let alone a bad journeyman. You know the JW that just can't hang no matter what you're doing? Can barely read prints, can't even find 310.16 in the code book. Yeah, why are those guys getting through?

Again not trying to be an a hole, sometimes it just sounds like it.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

ohmed out said:


> not JW but am human... I don't think I'm great, just giving my background. Eat it and smile does seem to be the best approach, though.


Welcome aboard and thank you for your service....:thumbup:


First off, do not take anyone's Chit, these assholes feed on guys who will not stand up for themselves. Do not tolerate it for one minute...these guys are p-u-s-s-y's and once they figure out that you might beat the ever living chit out of them, they will back off---if not then it's time to drop the gloves and smarten them up! You may get sent back to the hall after but word will get around that you should not be messed with.

Good luck!:thumbsup:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Some people just need a smack in the face. You can be the smacker or the smackee, but one things for sure, smacks are a coming. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

JW...

If the OP could make it as an Army Ranger, he's not a slacker. _IF_.

He may prove to be way too introverted -- even by the standards of electricians. :001_huh:

I would not be too surprised to find out that he's a southern boy that's an alien in the Big City. :001_huh:

( Ranger types are as common as dust with the Scots-Irish. ) 

He may have made the foolish decision to re-locate to NYC because of the nominally high wage rate -- not comprehending that he'd never fit in culturally -- nor that the local cost of living sucks back the nominally high wage. :no:

( We see a TON of such disappointments for southern talents that make their way to California. Yeah, they don't fit in here, either. ) :no:

One should never apprentice many states away from home. 

JW, so you're right: the OP has left off just about every embarrassing factor. And I'd put speaking with a strong out-of-state accent as being a distinct possibility. :whistling2:


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

all joking aside 
yes contact your supervisor via the union rep!
then 2nd step to the hr director
then 3rd step to the international union rep (if you have one)
document everything said or done in the attempt to correct the problem and any retaliation attempts done.
it should not get to the point where you need to hire legal assistance, but if it does having documented following the proper steps is to your best benefit.

no matter what any one else says there are hostile workplace laws out there and no company wants the label of hostile workplace as it can seriously affect the pocketbook by making them prime targets for law suits.

that being said many jobs tend to test the waters to see if an apprentice can handle the job and stress.
but there is no set guidelines that they follow.

as an apprenticeship committee member I spend a lot of time investigating problems and fine tuning training for the apprentice to get the most benefit for them.
but then again not everyone is as dedicated as i am to the apprenticeship programs.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Tesla, no doubt he's a tough mudda. No doubt he's sharp. Something just seems amiss... 

I had a Ranger for a cub once, one of the best apprentices I've had. Great person, hard worker, and smart! Unfortunately he moved away and got a job as a diesel mechanic his second year. He moved for family not the job...


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Damm , If I had a Cub Steamfitter I might send him out for a Bucket of Steam . 

A steam fitter I knew had that happen to him ... So he went out and got some Dry Ice and put it in the Bucket ... Alas a Bucket of Steam ! He was Loved for that .

OP , There is always the " Ma Bell Approach " , Reach Out and Touch Someone .


Pete


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

I work in Chicago and I really don't ever see apprentices being disrespected and called named to their faces. Maybe it's different in other locals.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> I work in Chicago and I really don't ever see apprentices being disrespected and called named to their faces. Maybe it's different in other locals.


It's never a good idea, but the more east you go, the more you find of this type of behavior/attitude. The guys acting like this really have no idea they're behaving irresponsibly; it comes natural. If you grew up around people like this, it's like water off a duck's back. You tell them to lick your balls or something off the cuff and you move on without giving it two seconds more thought. If you never grew up around people that act like that, then I can see how that would grind on you day after day. I wish it would stop altogether, though. It's hard enough finding good guys to do this work. It would be dumb to ruin one by screwing with his head day after day.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

Everything in NY is about busting your balls and constantly testing you to see if you have the heart to stick it out. If you're from around here, you can tough it out, if not, it can crush you. With the "me first" attitude currently a large part of the society we live in, it has only gotten worse. People that have recently become Journeymen are always the worst, and, looking back, I have to admit I have been guilty-as-charged myself. It's hard to avoid doing what was done to you as an Apprentice, to someone else when you're the JW ("Go get my coffee, Bitch"), when it has been going on for generations, in all Trades. Nowadays, I ask them if they know how to do it and have everything they need, then leave them alone. Much better way to assess their future in the Biz.


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## VoltJames (Nov 1, 2012)

I truly don't understand why apprentices are getting hazed to the point of disparity. Construction sector can be rough but if this sort of thing were to happen in an office environment (insults, sexual harassment), the accused can easily get fired. So far, I'm glad that I have not encountered any big d**ks. Small ones, I have but not big ones. I take it in stride. It's part of the 'culture'. Sadly, it shouldn't be this way and it needs to be changed. Frankly, it's down right illegal. However, JWs should take into account that apprentices do buy their coffee. Treat them well otherwise they may just add special ingredients to make their coffee taste better. 

That alone is reason enough not to disrespect apprentices.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

While there is always a certain amount of back and forth any JW constantly dissing an apprentice will be looking elsewhere for work.

What MD said is spot on if you are still eating crap after 18 months take a look at yourself.

I worked with a few D*CKHEADS as a helper and I swore I would never be a DH when I became a JW, and I never bust on anyone.

Though I will reprimand you for screwing up.


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## sae (Aug 17, 2012)

You're likely taking it the wrong way and/or showing a bad mood over it. I can't think of any reason why it would go on for so long other than that. I had a guy in my class that would bitch every shop he was at treating him bad. Then I worked with him and whenever I gave him **** he would take it way too seriously and his mood would just be crap from then on. I chalked it up to him being a candy ass.

If people bs with you, you need to be able to take it and dish it right back without being all pissy or whiny about it. It seems more like you're just not fitting into the crowd. I can't really imagine all of a shop/local being ****s without reason whether it be attitude, ****iness, etc.


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## Rourk (Sep 5, 2015)

Honestly, If I have an apprentice who has a good attitude, wants to work, and overall TRIES I leave him alone. Sure I'll bust his balls a little bit, but I'll also make sure he is taken care of as well.

Some people are just rotten assholes. Nothing in the world will change that. Do not hit the guy. That is a great way of being thrown out of the union and losing all the great benefits. Things come around full circle, maybe one day he will work for you, or his kid will. Thats happened to me and I've only been topped out for 2 years now.

Sometimes the work sucks, but honestly, are you going to send the old guy who can't be depended on with maybe a bad back or the apprentice who was an army ranger and is probably physically fit.

Take everything with a grain of salt. Give it back but in a very fun light manner, but most importantly, do your job the best way its laid out to you and ask a lot of questions. Focus on learning rather then some old prick.


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## jack103x (May 17, 2009)

Rltw !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

Thank you to all who have answered to this post. YOUR COMMENTS ARE ALL GREATLY APPRECIATED. I am not used to eating s$%t but this is what I have found. For all apprentices going through tough times. 

1. Exemplify what the JATC and your contractor want and expect.
2. When you pal around with JW's as an apprentice your setting yourself up for failure.
3. Be No-nonsense on the job.
4. If you dont respond and keep your mouth shut eventually people will tire of riding you.

The greatest thing an apprentice can do his his job...in a professional and craftsmen like manner and KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT.

The harassment has stopped and I've become much more humble. Shutting up doesn't make you a chump or less of a man. When Im a JW I'll be more vocal then.

For all the guys going through a tough apprenticeship, it will get better. Thanks to all the Union brothers who helped me to assimilate. I love my job.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

We all usually have to park in the same place....hint hint


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Seriously??
> 
> So he is expected to be treated like sh*t and just take it? Just because someone with more years than him in a different trade thinks they are a big shot?


 
I think JW Splicer was just giving you the best answer..

If I can explain..

If the OP wants sees this apprenticeship through, and wants to make life easier on him, the "eat it and smile" approach is without a doubt the better road to take. 

Name calling and hazing stuff is only detrimental if you let it get to you, and I would bet that if the OP maintains a positive attitude, and strives to learn from these guys (when they give him the opportunity) then his situation will get better. 

Apprenticeship is a long road, and can be bumpy at times, but I had to endure the same treatment early on, from helper, and on up into my apprenticeship years. 

If the OP decides to let his pride get in the way and complain to his supervisors, it will probably get back to the JWs and his situation will get worse.

Just the way it is.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

ohmed out said:


> Thank you to all who have answered to this post. YOUR COMMENTS ARE ALL GREATLY APPRECIATED. I am not used to eating s$%t but this is what I have found. For all apprentices going through tough times.
> 
> 1. Exemplify what the JATC and your contractor want and expect.
> 2. When you pal around with JW's as an apprentice your setting yourself up for failure.
> ...


I'm really glad to hear things are going better! Best of luck! :thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ohmed out said:


> 2. When you pal around with JW's as an apprentice your setting yourself up for failure.


 


I hung with JW's from day one and never had an issue resulting from that.


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## Ink&Brass (Nov 6, 2013)

This is the reason I dig being in a small company right now, you avoid a lot of this political bullcrap.

As much as I enjoyed being in the army, experiences like you describe are one of the reasons I didn't resign for a second contract. If my civilian job every stooped to that I'd be gone real quick. There's a big difference between "knowing your place and paying your dues" and hazing.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Moonshot180 said:


> *Name calling and hazing stuff is only detrimental if you let it get to you, *and I would bet that if the OP maintains a positive attitude, and strives to learn from these guys (when they give him the opportunity) then his situation will get better.
> 
> Apprenticeship is a long road,* and can be bumpy at times, but I had to endure the same treatment early on, from helper, and on up into my apprenticeship years. *
> 
> ...


Well, that's not the way it should be. This is a JOB, not the military and especially not a fraternity. It is your place of employment.

How is standing up for yourself considered "pride"??? I guess it is a proud thing to not let someone abuse you for no good reason other than they worked at a place longer than you.
So it is expected that one is submissive or has to lay low in order to "fit in"??

I think the ones defending this situation do think of it like a fraternity and are the ones who were submissive early on only thinking they will be the abusers later and not the abused.
Like having the attitude if you can put up with the crap afterward you'll be "on of us".

I totally understand that we do/did not know the OP's situation. He could be a real jerk for all we know, but if he is sincere in his original post I highly doubt it. It's just I am reading far too many folks here defending this hazing ritual as normal.


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## Rourk (Sep 5, 2015)

I feel like there is more to the story honestly.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> I work in Chicago and I really don't ever see apprentices being disrespected and called named to their faces. Maybe it's different in other locals.


I can tell you this is not true.... 

Most are good guys, but some are complete assholes.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

mikeh32 said:


> I can tell you this is not true....
> 
> Most are good guys, but some are complete assholes.


I think that could be said for all locals. 
Treating people poorly and disrespectfully when they are needing to learn, build confidence, and perform their expected tasks is very counter productive and simply bull****. If a guy or gal is going to wash out, it should be based on criteria other than just not wanting to put up with childish pricks on a daily basis.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

I think it's not uncommon for JMs to become overloaded by the sheer amount of entitled BS from generation after generation of marginally parented "participants", and as a result develop the scattergun hardass attitude when dealing with all apprentices. Those with a clue get past it, IMO.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

Now your talking... and I'm listening.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

I see that now...you are most definitely right.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

agreed.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

thanks for the link; very insightful.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

It has been based on the foreman I've been paired up with; it hasn't been constant abuse. I did take in all your points and found that my demeanor was partially the issue. I have never had problems in the past before now and refined how I deal with others (less friendly, less eager to please...but still all about business) and it worked. I used to hear "Your to polite, you wont last a week". Now I have no problems. The life of a union electrician took me some time to get used to. Because of JW's like you I get it. THANKS.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

I definitely agree. I am with a new, smaller contractor know and have no issues.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> Dude.....you are _soooooOOOoo_ in the wrong place for sympathy.....:no:~CS~


Ray Stevens...that was funny. I get.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

danhasenauer said:


> Everything in NY is about busting your balls and constantly testing you to see if you have the heart to stick it out. If you're from around here, you can tough it out, if not, it can crush you. With the "me first" attitude currently a large part of the society we live in, it has only gotten worse. People that have recently become Journeymen are always the worst, and, looking back, I have to admit I have been guilty-as-charged myself. It's hard to avoid doing what was done to you as an Apprentice, to someone else when you're the JW* ("Go get my coffee, Bitch"),* when it has been going on for generations, in all Trades. Nowadays, I ask them if they know how to do it and have everything they need, then leave them alone. Much better way to assess their future in the Biz.



I'll gladly go get your coffee. I'll make sure it's extra special just for you. :whistling2:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

ohmed out said:


> I am an indentured 2nd year apprentice. I love the work and put my best foot forward each day. I have a military back ground and have been a plant mechanic for over ten years. Electrical was my weak point. I am a certified welder, proficient in all areas except electrical service. I entered the union late...at 36.
> 
> My questions is in regards to treatment. Being disrespected. I have dealt with the hazing for 18 months. I understand it's part of the job. At my first contractor I was told by my foreman to stand up for myself. Big mistake; I was laid off for being "unqualified" two months into my apprenticeship. I never disrespect anyone and always do what I'm told to the best of my ability.
> 
> ...


You just spilled your gutsack all over us in about 30 seconds.
I know more about you than people I have worked with for 5 years and I didn't need to know any of it.
Your accomplishments outside of the trade really don't matter much to those that make a living in the present.
You need to keep your jib closed, work hard, get dirty and go home tired.
That's all that matters.
One local can have thousands of members and what they know or assume about you will be cast in stone for the next 30 to 40 years in that local.
Your reputation will be on the job about an hour before you show up.
You won't have to tell a soul about how smart you are or anything like that, your actions will speak volumes.
Starting tomorrow, only talk about women, beer and seasonal sports, right now, that would be NFL.
If you really want to be the job nerd, start with article 100 and work your way into motors. Don't go much past that. People just are not ready for it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

ohmed out said:


> not JW but am human... I don't think I'm great, just giving my background. Eat it and smile does seem to be the best approach, though.


Or, you could bag up the worst one, hang him by his ankles and just be cool like nothing ever happened.
You know, like send a message.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Or, you could bag up the worst one, hang him by his ankles and just be cool like nothing ever happened.
> You know, like send a message.




Thats Old School ...


" Ma Bell Approach " ... Reach out and Touch Someone !









some Music to Help !



Pete


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

:thumbup:


electricmanscott said:


> I'll gladly go get your coffee. I'll make sure it's extra special just for you. :whistling2:


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

I know an apprentice who used metal braid zip ties and zipped his JW's legs to a rail in a JLG.


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

the music does help...ROCK ON!


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## Rourk (Sep 5, 2015)

ohmed out said:


> I know an apprentice who used metal braid zip ties and zipped his JW's legs to a rail in a JLG.



Thats actually kinda funny if the jw took it well and it wasn't a safety issue. I personally hate heights so if it was up the air I'd freak out.

Heights being 60+ feet


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

I never talk personally or reveal anything about myself. I don't think I'm a genius...just wanted to give my background. But...YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Wasn't ready for the construction racket when I first started. I agree with everything you said. I need advice like yours. I've heard it from a few others...followed the lead, now I get it and fit in. The construction racket isn't the place to stand out. Thank you for your valuable insight. Go Giants!


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## ohmed out (Jul 30, 2015)

The JW thought it was funny. The only reason he was angry is he wished he had done the same to a hardass JW when he was an apprentice.


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