# The differences in our electrical systems



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I think you should pick a less controversial subject ........ you know, abortion, religion, politics, nuking gay whales .......:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well i'll go nuke a gay whale for Jesus , right after i read some OP commentary BBQ.....~CS~


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Im told by sparkies that we have one of the best electrical systems in the world, electrocutions and electric fires are very rare to hear of yet the only pipe threaders onsite are manned by sprinkler apes. I believe your 120v is more lethal than our 230v, Ive been belted twice with no ill effect though Im not sure of amperage from outlets.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

chewy said:


> Im told by sparkies that we have one of the best electrical systems in the world, electrocutions and electric fires are very rare to hear of yet the only pipe threaders onsite are manned by sprinkler apes. I believe your 120v is more lethal than our 230v, Ive been belted twice with no ill effect though Im not sure of amperage from outlets.


so educate us a tad Chewy, what protectants do you employ there? 

do you have anything like the vid desribes? isolated noodles? enhanced main breaker?

how are you fire stats collected?

be gentle, i'm an American, speak only one language, and i don't know which way Canada is....

~CS~


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

why does the video keep stopping after every sentance..? Interesting...vid


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

chewy said:


> I believe your 120v is more lethal than our 230v, Ive been belted twice with no ill effect though Im not sure of amperage from outlets.


Not true, since the human body is purely resistive the higher the voltage, the higher the current draw through the body. (V/R=I) 240 volt's is far more lethal 120 volt's.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Im not a sparky so Ill try my best, we would be the same as Aussie I think. 

Ill describe a typical commercial fitout which is what I see most - 

Distribution board is housed inside a locked closet only specific people have access to and all breakers must be on an RCD. Perforated metal tray is run above the drop ceiling over a good proportion of the walls and droppers, the rest are just put on catenary wires bisecting the tray, external wiring is run in PVC, indoors and outdoors like a plant room with HVAC on the roof. For regular outlets 2.5mm TPS (thermo plastic sheathed) cable is used with red, green and black conductors in a white sheath. 1.5mm tps is used for some lighting. 

The cables are dropped directly off the tray or off cat wires into timber framing or steel stud in which a plastic bushing is required for all penetrations through metal. Then it goes into a plastic box or a metal one if its a fire rated wall. After theyre fitted off they are all meggered and a rare earth impedence test is required.

For residential I believe all wiring is done with 2.5mm except 1.5mm for lighting and a 4mm or 6mm for stove. 

Working live is common place here so most sparkys have insulated screwdrivers. 

No metal conduit though I dont work industrial often enough to see if thats the case there, Id imagine some situations call for it but its not as common as you guys use it.

Thats about all I can think of now.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chewy said:


> No metal conduit though


People here are going to have a hard time with flexible plastic cables, no metal conduit and a lower electrical fire rate.

People here are entirely brainwashed that metal pipe is always better even though a lot of the world and many ships are wired all in flexible cables.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

We also have switches on all our outlets and grounds are always down.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

chewy said:


> We also have switches on all our outlets and grounds are always down.


cool... I wished i could turn off cords once in a while. when my daughter was young... she liked to pull on them.... which promted me to install lots of gfci breakers... LOL she is still youg ...only 3...wow how fast it goes..


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

BBQ said:


> People here are going to have a hard time with flexible plastic cables, no metal conduit and a lower electrical fire rate.
> 
> People here are entirely brainwashed that metal pipe is always better even though a lot of the world and many ships are wired all in flexible cables.


I don't care how it gets done. I could do without the rigid pipe. But the guys I'm surrounded by have such a hard-on for the stuff.

At least step it down to IMC, it's a helluva lot lighter.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

captkirk said:


> why does the video keep stopping after every sentance..? Interesting...vid



Reminds my of Jimmy Carter.

"My fellow Americans.


Many of you


are probably wondering


why I speak


only three words


at a time.




The answer is, 


I don't know."


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Reminds my of Jimmy Carter.
> 
> "My fellow Americans.
> 
> ...


Oh crap, another political post .......... :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Oh crap, another political post .......... :laughing:


Most here won't know who the peanut farmer is. :no:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Anyone ever see "The Life Aquatic" with Bill Murray?

Even Wes Anderson's most recent movie "moonlight kingdom" has similar editing style where the camera angle/location change every few words. It's kind of awkward to watch and somewhat humorous.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

chewy said:


> Im not a sparky so Ill try my best, we would be the same as Aussie I think.
> 
> Ill describe a typical commercial fitout which is what I see most -
> 
> ...


These RCD's seem like a good idea>











this what it looks like over your side of the rock Chewy?










from here>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device


with this in mind.....>



> This section *needs additional citations for verification*. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. _(February 2012)_


~CS~


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## toklover (May 7, 2012)

chewy said:


> After theyre fitted off they are all meggered and a rare earth impedence test is required.
> 
> For residential I believe all wiring is done with 2.5mm except 1.5mm for lighting and a 4mm or 6mm for stove.
> 
> Working live is common place here so most sparkys have insulated screwdrivers.


Okay.... I just need to address this 

Cable is MEGGERED/insulation resistance tested, and a impedance testing is not rare, at least I hope not, AS/NZS 3000:2007(our bible) outline maximum allowable restitance for a given run based on size of CB & cable(active & earth).

Again, 2.5mm and 1.5mm is a rule of thumb standard, doesn't always fly, ie if the cable is fully enclosed in insulation etc etc, the circustance and current and cb dictate the cable.

Working live,.... the rule is no, the reality is yes
It is illegal to work live, you can only work live if, your employer & you agree, and only if it can be done "safely"

As far as protection, in Australia we use the M.E.N earth system


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

We have RCD breakers here, we just call them GFCI breakers. And most of ours are set at 6 mA. I believe they would be far more effective at fire prevention than the mythical AFCI.

I'm also all for a GFCI main. Having said that... F*ck the French:jester:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> People here are going to have a hard time with flexible plastic cables, no metal conduit and a lower electrical fire rate.
> 
> People here are entirely brainwashed that metal pipe is always better even though a lot of the world and many ships are wired all in flexible cables.



Good point, if you've ever seen a video about building construction in Asia, Europe, Australia, etc, they use NM cable for just about everything. I watched one of those "build a highrise in one week in China" videos and the wiring was all NM cable.


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## cortez (Oct 23, 2011)

toklover said:


> Okay....
> 
> Working live,.... the rule is no, the reality is yes
> It is illegal to work live, you can only work live if, your employer & you agree, and only if it can be done "safely" ...quote]
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> > We have RCD breakers here, we just call them GFCI breakers. And most of ours are set at 6 mA. I believe they would be far more effective at fire prevention than the mythical AFCI.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

toklover said:


> As far as protection, in Australia we use the M.E.N earth system


i _think_ this is what you are referring to Tok>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

but it gets a tad confusing (at least for me)>>>










*TN-S*: separate protective earth (PE) and neutral (N) conductors from transformer to consuming device, which are not connected together at any point after the building distribution point.









*TN-C*: combined PE and N conductor all the way from the transformer to the consuming device.









*TN-C-S earthing system*: combined PEN conductor from transformer to building distribution point, but separate PE and N conductors in fixed indoor wiring and flexible power cords.


~S~


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

In Australia the standared power supply is 400/230 volt's. This is achieved by a star connected secondary transformer, similar to Steves second picture. The first and third picture I've never seen before, but it look's like the first picture has the MEN connected at the transformer not the consumers property. I don't know whats going on with the third one????

If you go rural in Aus you will find what we call a SWER system, which is an HV/HV isolation tranformer down to an HV/LV transformer single phase. The feed from the HV/HV transfomer down to the HV/LV transformer users one wire and the ground for the return. The LV side is a 480 volt winding with a centre tap so we have two actives and one neutral (480/240). Down here we actually call this a 2 phase supply.

The earthing system used in Aus is known as MEN earthing (multiple earth neutral). Which just means that the earth and neutral are bonded together at various point's thoughout the distribution system. Usually in the main switchboard.


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

that's a 10 years old picture so i don't know if it's much different nowadays ,here a typical residential main distribution in France , electronic digital meter top left with main on the right , probably 40 amps service and the subpanel under need , 1 phase and neutral . you also have two small wire with your feeder , like #14 or 12 from the ultilites so you can control a contactor to use for you electric water heater or electric heater also to turn itself on when electricity is cheaper at different times of the day , the one on the bottom left corner .







I think if I recall , there are 4 differential breakers probably 2 x 300ma and 2 x 30 ma to feed receptacles and lights circuit so of course if one trip here you won't be in total darkness like in the video where there is only one , and then single breakers 10amps for light and 16 amps for receptacles also with phase and neutral disconnection .


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

toklover said:


> Cable is MEGGERED/insulation resistance tested, and a impedance testing is not rare, at least I hope not, AS/NZS 3000:2007(our bible) outline maximum allowable restitance for a given run based on size of CB & cable(active & earth).


Fault loop impedance is not rare at all. It is if anything it is more important than IR testing. Just to add to the last line the trip curve of a breaker is also a large factor with loop impedance (B,C or D type).




toklover said:


> Again, 2.5mm and 1.5mm is a rule of thumb standard, doesn't always fly, ie if the cable is fully enclosed in insulation etc etc, the circustance and current and cb dictate the cable.


Not to mention volt drop and fault loop impedance also have to be taken into consideration.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have started to use the Ideal circuit tester with the impedance feature. Found a nearly open ground that had been like that for almost thirty years. Would likely have passed with a regular plug tester. Safer and more $ in my pocket. I assume this is one of the features of those multifunction testers I see marketed to the European market.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

ill stick to the USA crap. As far as electrocutions, those can be put in 2 categories: Accidental, and natural selection.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

They could have shortened that video from 9 mins to 2 mins since over half of it was repeats.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Over the past years I have stareted to talk to many foriegn Electricians and Enginears and many of them have told me that the americam system is a joke. I can type for hours what they have told me. 

At first I thought they were either Jealous or ignorant but after studying the theory (like 30ma RCD on all or certain circuits) I have started to realize they do have areas which are more advanced then America.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

french connection!! said:


> that's a 10 years old picture so i don't know if it's much different nowadays ,here a typical residential main distribution in France , electronic digital meter top left with main on the right , probably 40 amps service and the subpanel under need , 1 phase and neutral . you also have two small wire with your feeder , like #14 or 12 from the ultilites so you can control a contactor to use for you electric water heater or electric heater also to turn itself on when electricity is cheaper at different times of the day , the one on the bottom left corner .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
FC.,

That is a common monophase resdentail panel and you have all the answer there and there is some change along the way.

If you need more details on them let me know I will be gald to fill ya in if you want to.

Now for the rest of readers this panel is typical for small to meduim service size useally less than 63 amp on Interrupteur principal ( main breaker )

For triphase service the panel is larger and it will look little differnt than what FC did posted above.

I know someone mention about our RCD ., Oui we do have them but in few differnt ratings depending on the useage if on Principal it will be either 100 or 300ma rating for RCD tripping level ( the commercal / industrial have higher setting ) but for branch circuit the RCD setting is lower useally 30ma is typical. and yeah we do have lower setting but resvered for special useage like swimming pool or bathroom or other places which the NF ( Normes De France aka French verison of NEC ) will call for it.

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chewy said:


> We also have switches on all our outlets and grounds are always down.


We don't have switches next to the power points ( receptales or outlets ) and our grounds is always up. ( only in France ) 

The only time we will have a switch next to the power point is useally triphase loads or specal requirement we have in Norms de France.

Guys.,, Just don't start with up/down ground locations just leave as it.

Merci,
Marc


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Did you get deported again?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Did you get deported again?


Who got deported ?

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> > In Australia the standared power supply is 400/230 volt's. This is achieved by a star connected secondary transformer, similar to Steves second picture. The first and third picture I've never seen before, but it look's like the first picture has the MEN connected at the transformer not the consumers property. I don't know whats going on with the third one????
> 
> 
> it came with the link Aussie, so i had to ask....
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

french connection!! said:


> Nice,
> 
> so does this panel have a nuetral bar?, or is it one that has evolved away from it, all the smaller breakers having their own nuetral connection?
> 
> ~CS~


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## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> the SWER's seem a tad dangerous imho....


Some over here would agree with you there. Though I have never really had direct experiece with SWER systems. Using the actually ground as the return has both good and bad point's I suppose. The good being you only have to run out one wire and then drive and earth eletrode in for you're return. So the cost saving's are huge. 

But the downside is that there is real risk of large step potential's forming between the two transformer's. Generally they have to drill quite far down to get a good earth. 




chicken steve said:


> Your system employs (as per pix 2) a PEN, meaning they are run in branch circuits out as a single entity. We did away with that some 40yrs ago here, but you folks utilize protective breakers, an interesting trade off
> ~CS~


My bad, looking at the diagrams again Australia actually uses diagram 3 for earthing. (blame the crap drawing from wikepedia). Which uses a combined PEN up until the building distribution point. Then a seperate PE and neutral for everthing after that. (sorry for the confusion) I assume our earthing system is similar to your's then?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

My bad, looking at the diagrams again Australia actually uses diagram 3 for earthing. (blame the crap drawing from wikepedia). Which uses a combined PEN up until the building distribution point. Then a seperate PE and neutral for everthing after that. (sorry for the confusion) I assume our earthing system is similar to your's then? 


Yes, they would be similar. However you folks up the ante' with RCD's main breakers , and what may be RCD branch circuit breakers

so you win the _safer_ system award , as far as i can reckon here Aussie


It also comes to mind that higher voltages means lesser conductors, less infastructure

seems you get the _economic_ nod as well....


best i can do (at the moment) ..>










~CS~


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

schematic not for that panel , mf725 25 A thunder strike protection required in some area . I'm guessing each differential breaker are around $120 . Then your grounding has to be less than 100 ohm with 500ma main , so in some place it can be really tricky to reach it , cause , I haven't work there now for the past +14 years , that was the first thing the inspector check , and they have the right tool to measure it with the triangulation .Where you grouding cable leave the panel we had to install a ground bar disconnect so you can measure it from that point , so it can be difficult to bid a service sometime cause you don't really know how much time you could spent for the ground . We did a military radio station once on a mountain top , where they required a 1 ohm maximum ground , took us 3 days .


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)




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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

french connection!! said:


> schematic not for that panel , mf725 25 A thunder strike protection required in some area . I'm guessing each differential breaker are around $120 . Then your grounding has to be less than 100 ohm with 500ma main , so in some place it can be really tricky to reach it , cause , I haven't work there now for the past +14 years , that was the first thing the inspector check , and they have the right tool to measure it with the triangulation .Where you grouding cable leave the panel we had to install a ground bar disconnect so you can measure it from that point , so it can be difficult to bid a service sometime cause you don't really know how much time you could spent for the ground . We did a military radio station once on a mountain top , where they required a 1 ohm maximum ground , took us 3 days .


 
Thank you FC

so looking at this, i'm seeing the blue nuetral bar to the upper right, red hot to the upper left, all feeding down to 5 larger breakers (the schematic 40's and 30's )

then each differential breaker has it's own nuetral/hot connection

the only outgoing _'bar'_ would be the PE (protective earth, seen @ bottom)

am i seeing this right sir?

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Aussielec said:
> 
> 
> > the SWER's seem a tad dangerous imho....
> ...


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Thank you FC
> 
> so looking at this, i'm seeing the blue nuetral bar to the upper right, red hot to the upper left, all feeding down to 5 larger breakers (the schematic 40's and 30's )
> 
> ...


If FC don't mind if I take over for a minuite.,

Poulet.,

This set up as FC show you the recent photo the bleu is common used as netural and for phase colour I know the older verison the red is allowed but new recent codes that came up few years back now the Brown is first colour for phase conductor ( the Gris et Noir* is used as well ) 

The Noir ( Black ) conductor it was used to be used as netural for short while but it is no longer legit so it switched over to phase conductor format.

That panel we used that is common on small Maison ou appartement ( home or apartment ) but for larger panels we just add more rows below of the panel so it kinda pretty exandable as long that panel do have proper fitting to expand if need to.

The small panel can be anywhere from 15 amp to 63 amp monophase but once you get over that size it kinda crossed over to triphase but no question asked once you get over 160 amp mantory triphase panels.

( Gris = Grey ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> If FC don't mind if I take over for a minuite.,
> 
> Poulet.,
> 
> ...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> chicken steve said:
> 
> 
> > Several European enginears told me that they thought the SWER system and Multi grounded neutral was risky and was only favorable for remote villages at small loads otherwise ground currents can become an issue.
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > some valid points Meadow.....
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

For whats worth the diagram you posted is not a stable connection because the primary wye is left floating from the neutral while the secondary is connected. Sever voltage imbalance would result on the secondary on neutral connected loads. Also is the non bonded ground on the secondary


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## Dhfisher (May 6, 2011)

Seen bumper sticker, (says it all) "let's nuke all the new born, gay, baby whales"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dhfisher said:


> Seen bumper sticker, (says it all) "let's nuke all the new born, gay, baby whales"


Never seen that, around here is was 'Nuke a gay whale for Jesus'.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Poulet.,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope that help ya.

Merci,
Marc


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Differential devices 30 ma*



french connection!! said:


> schematic not for that panel , mf725 25 A thunder strike protection required in some area . I'm guessing each differential breaker are around $120 . Then your grounding has to be less than 100 ohm with 500ma main , so in some place it can be really tricky to reach it , cause , I haven't work there now for the past +14 years , that was the first thing the inspector check , and they have the right tool to measure it with the triangulation .Where you grouding cable leave the panel we had to install a ground bar disconnect so you can measure it from that point , so it can be difficult to bid a service sometime cause you don't really know how much time you could spent for the ground . We did a military radio station once on a mountain top , where they required a 1 ohm maximum ground , took us 3 days .


*Hello.* 

*Please note today, the price for a differential device (40 A 30 mA) is* *22/40 € > $ 28/50. > For all the Panel = $ 112 / 200.*

*It's the price for the full protection against Parallel Arcs ( phase-to-ground and Neutral -to-ground) for a whole house. *

*For example look at here:*


*http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/interrupteur-differentiel/index.php/cPath/36*


*Regards*


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello.*
> 
> *Please note today, the price for a differential device (40 A 30 mA) is* *22/40 € > $ 28/50. > For all the Panel = $ 112 / 200.*
> 
> ...


*Details:* *(For example, 2 Units Réf RKN-2P-40/AC = 21€+21 € + 2 Units Réf RKN-2P-40/A = 25.89€ + 25.89€ = 93,78€ = $ 115 ) for a whole house.*

Best Regards

French ICC -


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Hello & welcome French ICC

i would ask that you possibly break down these costs a little bit

looking at the panel pictured, there is >

*the panel itself*

*the panel main breaker*

*5-6 sub-breakers*

*29 individual breakers*

une traduction est nécessaire, s'il vous plaît me PM

~CS~


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Never seen that, around here is was 'Nuke a gay whale for Jesus'.


nuke a gay unborn whale for jesue


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

ampman said:


> nuke a gay unborn whale for jesue


Or a blow up a green peace boat since we have a French flavour in this thread :laughing: (Rainbow Warrior sunk in Auckland Harbour).


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

French ICC said:


> *Details:* *(For example, 2 Units Réf RKN-2P-40/AC = 21€+21 € + 2 Units Réf RKN-2P-40/A = 25.89€ + 25.89€ = 93,78€ = $ 115 ) for a whole house.*
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> French ICC -


 
Bonjour French ICC.,

Bienvenu au fourm. cependant je dois vous demander quelque chose est que les disjoncteurs sont ils ont inscrit au prix des prix ou au détail de gros dû je obtenant peu de réponses là.


La raison pourquoi je demande parce qu'il y a le tarif de couple que j'a utilisé je veux juste m'assurer que nous sommes à la même "page"

( English verison below ) 
Welcome to the fourm. however I have to ask you something is that the circuit breakers are they listed to the wholesale price or retail price due I getting few answers there.


The reason why I ask because there is price-list of couple which I used I just want to make sure that we are on the same "page"


Merci,
Marc


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chewy said:


> Or a blow up a green peace boat since we have a French flavour in this thread :laughing: (Rainbow Warrior sunk in Auckland Harbour).


 
Hello. Thank you for the comment... How to say ... How many French have not endorsed this act, or some other ! I think there are good people everywhere, in every country. Best regards.


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Bonjour French ICC.,
> 
> Bienvenu au fourm. cependant je dois vous demander quelque chose est que les disjoncteurs sont ils ont inscrit au prix des prix ou au détail de gros dû je obtenant peu de réponses là.
> 
> ...


Bonjour Marc. 

Merci pour ton message de bienvenue. J'ai du mal à comprendre ce que tu me dis. Mon Americain n'est pas exellent non plus.. désolé si je fais des erreurs. Mais on va essayer d'y arriver...

En premier, il ne s'agit pas de disjoncteurs. 

Les prix sont ceux d'interrupteurs differentiels, pas de disjoncteurs différentiels.

Ce sont les prix au détail pour les artisans ou les particuliers. 

Mais pas dans la même marque que celle qui est sur la photo.

Cela répond t'il à ta question ? 

Cordialement, 

French ICC
-------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Hello Marc, 

Thank you for your welcome message. I have trouble understanding what you say. My American is not exellent either .. sorry if I make mistakes. But we'll try to get there ...

First, the subject is not circuit breakers! Prices are those of Differential Switches, no Differential Breaker. These are retail prices for artisans or individuals. But not in the same brand as the one on the picture.

These prices are common in France.

It's good for you ?

Best regards,

French ICC

Annuler les modifications


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Hello & welcome French ICC
> 
> i would ask that you possibly break down these costs a little bit
> 
> ...


Hello Chicken Steve, and thank you for your Welcome.

If I understand... A typical example below:

_Protection against overcurrent / Short circuits and parallel arcs (0.5 A) (phase to ground) between main breaker and differential interrupteurs & individual breakers._
_Protection against overcurrent / Short circuits by individual breakers. _
_Protection against parallel arcs ( 30 mA) ( phase to ground & Neutral to ground ) in all circuits by Differential Interrupteurs._

*1.00€ = $1.25*

*Support for current meter and Main breaker* Réf. P400= 35.52 € = $ 40.65
http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/disjoncteur-d-abonne-edf/index.php/cPath/80

*Main Breaker* 30/60 A Réf. 585020 = 48.53 € = $ 60.66
http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/disjoncteur-d-abonne-edf/index.php/cPath/80

*Panel *Réf. GD313 = 36.00 € = $45.00
http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/coffret-electrique-vide/index.php/cPath/48

*Differential Interrupteurs*

_(Please, note French standards do not impose more than 4 Differential Interrupteurs (Dwelling + 100 m²)_

http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/interrupteur-differentiel/index.php/cPath/36

2 Units 40A/ 30 mA type AC > Réf. RKN-2P-40/AC (21.00€) = 42.00€ > $ 52.50
1 Unit 63A/30 mA Type AC > Réf. RKN-2P-63/AC (26.02€) = $ 32.52
1 Unit 403A/30 mA Type A > Réf. RKN-2P-40/A (25.89€) = $ 32.36


*Individual Breakers : *

http://www.bis-electric.com/catalog/materiel-electrique/disjoncteur-phase-neutre/index.php/cPath/35

I Unit 02 A > Réf. BKP C2A (7.00 €) > $8.75
10 Units 10 A > Réf. BKP C10A (4.75 €) = 47.50€ > $ 59.37
12 Units 16 A > Réf. BKP C16A (4.75 €) =57.00€ > $ 71.25
4 Units 20 A> Réf. BKP C20A (4.75 €) =19.00€ > $ 23.25
I Unit 32 A> Réf. BKP C32A (5.00 €) > $ 6.25 

*To resume:*

*Support for current meter and Main breaker Réf. P400 = $ 40.65*
*Main Breaker 30/60 A **Réf. 585020 = $ 60.66* ( Include differential device 0.5 A )

*Both = $ 101.31**

*---------------------------------------------*
*Panel : $ 45.00*
*Differential Interrupteurs = $ 117.38*
*Individual Breakers = $ 168.87*
*---------------------------------------------*
*Total = $ 331.25*** 
*---------------------------------------------*

I hope this information do you expect. Best Regards, French ICC


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2010)

French ICC said:


> Hello. Thank you for the comment... How to say ... How many French have not endorsed this act, or some other ! I think there are good people everywhere, in every country. Best regards.


I did not say it was a bad thing, haha.


----------



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I know when I did electrical work in Thailand, the ground was entirely isolated from the system.

What is funny is that a white guy came and wired up his house, and bonded the neutral to ground. As you can imagine, his hose burned down because much of the return current was going through his house, and not out to the transformer far away.


----------



## chewy (May 9, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I know when I did electrical work in Thailand, the ground was entirely isolated from the system.
> 
> What is funny is that a white guy came and wired up his house, and bonded the neutral to ground. As you can imagine, his hose burned down because much of the return current was going through his house, and not out to the transformer far away.


Why was an electrical apprentice undertaking work in Thailand? They may have thought you were a journeyman? Were you there picking out a wife?


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

chewy said:


> Why was an electrical apprentice undertaking work in Thailand? They may have thought you were a journeyman? Were you there picking out a wife?



Read that again.... he said his *hose* burned down.


----------



## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Thank you FC
> 
> so looking at this, i'm seeing the blue nuetral bar to the upper right, red hot to the upper left, all feeding down to 5 larger breakers (the schematic 40's and 30's )
> 
> ...


correct


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Chicken Steve, and thank you for your Welcome.
> 
> If I understand... A typical example below:
> 
> ...


 

yes & thank you..........



American version, ICC.....>

simplest meter= $30---------------------------------X1--------------$30

wire and connectors into main panel= $30---------X1-------------$30

main panel 100A 30 cir w/100A main= $130--------X1------------$130

normal 20 a single pole breakers= $5 ea-----------X5------------$25

normal 20a dual breakers= $7 ea------------------X1-------------$7

normal 30a dual breakers- $8 ea------------------X1--------------$8

20a AFCI= $38 ea-----------------------------------X20------------$760

total = ---------------------------------------------------------$990


~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> If FC don't mind if I take over for a minuite.,
> 
> Poulet.,
> 
> ...


Hello all.

If I may, I think that the only mandatory colors are blue for neutral and green & yellow for earth. Phases are usually red, black or brown, because these colors are used by cable manufacturers. But in terminal circuits, phases can be orange, grey, purple, brown, black, red, and white is now banned.

And in France the neutral is always on the left.

The current can be supplied in single phase (230 V) or three-phase + neutral (400 V). It is the user who chooses. In doing so, it's possible to have 230 V circuits, and 400 V circuits (eg for electrical motors).

The limit for the national electricity company is 90 A (single phase) or 3x30 A (3 phases+ Neutral) for a dwelling. Beyond this power the national electricity company does not install the main breaker. The electrician contractor installs the Main Breaker under its responsibility.

Generally 90 A is enough for a dwelling (20 700 watts) although there are houses with 100, 200, 300 A etc.

Regards, 

French ICC


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Pretty sure in some countries the current flows on the left side of the cable instead of the right side of the cable.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> yes & thank you..........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Sorry, I can not understand your request.*

*In France the current meter is provided by National company. It's cost is about $78. And I havent account wiring accessories.* 

*So (it will be more clear) :*

*Support for current meter and Main breaker Réf. P400 = $ 40.65*
*+Current meter > $78*
*+Main Breaker 30/60 A **Réf. 585020 = $ 60.66* ( Include differential device 0.5 A )
---------------------------------------------
*Total = $ 179.31**
*---------------------------------------------*

*---------------------------------------------*
*Panel : $ 45.00*
*+Differential Interrupteurs = $ 117.38*
*+Individual Breakers = $ 168.87*
*---------------------------------------------*
*Total = $ 331.25*** 
*---------------------------------------------*
+wiring accessories > $ 40.00
*---------------------------------------------*
*GENERAL TOTAL = $ 550.56*
*---------------------------------------------*

After, no need outlets with GFIC, Differential interrupteurs ( in panels ) are sufficient for a good protection.

_I hope this information do you expect. _

Best Regards, 

French ICC


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> *Sorry, I can not understand your request.
> *





ICC,

it is comparing French to American installations

very much general overview

~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Pretty sure in some countries the current flows on the left side of the cable instead of the right side of the cable.


...Left in the protections (eg breakers), of course....

Regards


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Most here won't know who the peanut farmer is. :no:


Or "Billy Beer" for that matter...:laughing:


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Well tomorrow I am going to India for a few weeks of vacation time with the fam...wait till you see the electrical pictures I post. Everyone's face will either look like  , :blink: , or


----------



## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Most here won't know who the peanut farmer is. :no:


Mitt Romney was commenting the other day regarding some of Mr. Carters policies were leading this country in the right direction.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> The small panel can be anywhere from 15 amp to 63 amp monophase but once you get over that size it kinda crossed over to triphase but no question asked once you get over 160 amp mantory triphase panels.


The French invented the metric system, and yet have such strange standard circuit ratings. 6*3* amps? 6 amp lighting circuits. 16 amp radials, 32 amp rings (in the UK). Etc.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

so we have..... wiring a small house> 

with a $500+ meter/panel/breakers with no need of gfci's 

_vs._

$1000 worth of meter/panel/breakers , and then having to install all the gfci devices 

and 3 ph in larger homes, which means smaller serv ent wire, smaller motors

As an EC, i think i'd take the Euro model over our American version here, were it available

As a consumer , i'd probably opt for it as well

In the consideration of safety, i'd definitely give it the nod as well

~CS~


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> As an EC, i think i'd take the Euro model over our American version here, were it available


Yeah, imagine being able to build a service for a commercial space without needing a transformer to step down from from 600 or 480 to 120/208. Everything would be 1Ø 230 or 3Ø 400.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> The French invented the metric system, and yet have such strange standard circuit ratings. 6*3* amps? 6 amp lighting circuits. 16 amp radials, 32 amp rings (in the UK). Etc.


Hello InPhase277

In fact for dwelling it's very simple. 

From top to bottom: 

*Main breaker with differential device 0.5A* 
_Protection against overcurrent / short circuit (like USA) _
_Parallel arcs (0.5 A) (phase to ground) between Main breaker and Panel _

*+Differential interupteurs 30 mA* 
*+Fuse or breakers* (like USA) 
_Protection against overcurrent / short circuit breakers by Individual. _
_Protection against parallel arcs (30 mA) (Phase to Neutral & ground to ground) in all circuits_ 
*-No GFCI in outlets* 

Ground wire is is not connected to the neutral, and differential devices are separated from breakers = When a fault occurs in a circuit, the origin is obvious.

When the ground wire is connected to neutral (as in the USA) (banned in France for housing), electricians generally install Differential breakers at the top of circuits. ( 300 mA, 30 mA ) to limit the value of accidental defects. And that's to be about the same as for dwelling...

*Terminals circuits:* 

For lighting, (8 lightings max for 1 circuit) wire Cu 1.5 mm², breaker 10 A
For usual circuit outlet, (5 outlets max for 1 circuit ) wire Cu 2.5mm², breaker 16 or 20 A.
For specialized outlet (dishwasher, washing machine, ect.) one circuit, wire Cu 2.5 mm² for one outlet and one breaker 16 or 20 A.
For oven, wire Cu 6 mm², one breaker 32 A
etc.

Regards,

French ICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Yeah, imagine being able to build a service for a commercial space without needing a transformer to step down from from 600 or 480 to 120/208. Everything would be 1Ø 230 or 3Ø 400.


Hello all.

I'm not saying it's better, it's just to explain the differences. Thank you for your comments, and sorry for my english.

In fact the major difference is the use of differential devices at the head of circuits since the 60s. They are still electromechanical = never tripping for nothing and are almost never HS. 

When the neutral and PE are connected, and without differential device at the head of circuits, a "leak" current must reach the value of the overcurrent protection = 15, 20, 30 A etc. ... to cut the current. 

For single phase circuits 115 v :

> 15 A = 1725 Watts
> 20 A = 2300 Watts, 
> 30 A = 3450 Watts ... 
> etc.

And it is known that these defects are often progressive...

In the minds of French, used to control these defaults at low values for 50 years, it's dangerous ...

It is considered that 300 mA differential devices at the head of circuits can prevent the fire risks ( accidental hot spots generated by a "leakage" of current to the ground conductor). 

In a scheme or the neutral and PE are connected, and with a differential device at the head of circuits, the "leakage" current must reach the value of the differential device protection, for example:

> = 35 watts for all circuits (15, 20 , 30 A, etc.. (115 volts & 300 mA), 

> = 3.5 watts for all circuits ( 115 volts & 30 mA).

... to cut the current.

That the PE is connected to the neutral, or connected to the ground. And whatever the voltage ... 

The main difference is there.

Best Regards,

French ICC


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Wow, so you guys have 300ma leakage current protection for everything? That's pretty interesting.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Wow, so you guys have 300ma leakage current protection for everything? That's pretty interesting.


Hello !

For dwelling it's like post 77. For small public buildings, often it's like dwelling.

For more important public buildings, generally (except the main breaker) it's 300 mA for lighting and other circuits; for outlet circuits 30 Ma; for lighting and appliances bathroom, 30 mA.

In fact, except in very special cases, it's been nearly 50 years that Differential devices are used at the head of all circuits.

Regards,

French ICC


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I'm not saying it's better, it's just to explain the differences. Thank you for your comments, and sorry for my english.
> 
> ...


 

*The main difference is HERE


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello !
> 
> For dwelling it's like post 77. For small public buildings, often it's like dwelling.
> 
> ...


 

French ICC,
Do any kind of _'electrical fire'_ statistics exist for your system?
~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> French ICC,
> Do any kind of _'electrical fire'_ statistics exist for your system?
> ~CS~


*Hello chiken steve.*

*Yes we have statistics.*

*In France (60 million) each year there are approximately 280,000 homes fires.* 

- *30% are of electrical origin.*

*In Industry "only" 1**2 / 15% of electrical fires**

_*This difference is due to maintenance and inspections (thermographic cameras) because no automatic protection can detect hot spots in circuits. _

According experts, about 85% of fires are caused by hot spots in connections. And it's logic. Over time, connections often generate hot spots.


In the USA, there may be a lower percentage of electrical fire? _(but is it easy to have statistics?)_

The Main differences I noticed:

*Often, a much better quality of work* _(congratulations to the professionals)_

Often so, a better quality of connections _(twisted wire, in France no, and wirenuts are prohibited)._

The same causes produce the same effects, in the USA it seems that connections are also the main cause of electrical fires.

What is also logical...

Best Regards.

_French ICC_


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> _*This difference is due to maintenance and inspections (thermographic cameras) because no automatic protection can detect hot spots in circuits. _
> 
> According experts, about 85% of fires are caused by hot spots in connections. And it's logic. Over time, connections often generate hot spots.


This is very interesting French ICC

i wish i knew more about _'hot spots'_ , what they are, how they are created, and the difference in the materials (such as wire nuts) used that could be a factor for creating them

I am aware of what is being called a _'glowing connection'_ , a term used recently to describe this

This is different from an _'arcing connection'_ , at least in terms of what we have on the market to address them

please, if you will, expand on this

~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> This is very interesting French ICC
> 
> i wish i knew more about _'hot spots'_ , what they are, how they are created, and the difference in the materials (such as wire nuts) used that could be a factor for creating them
> 
> ...


Hello chicken Steve.

Please, do not be offended, but I do not understand the concept of _'arcing connection'_ for the safety. Because here we consider that when arcs occur, it is too late for safety.

*About hot spot:*

*For example, when you use a soldering iron for electronics, (approx. 40w) the tip is yet to 660°F. The resistance of the tip has been calculated. The temperature remains stable (approximately). *

*It's an hot spot in a circuit* (increase of the resistance on a point = Joule effect). *Any protection cut off current = ( approx. 0.34 A /115 V), and here, everything is OK... *


*Hot spots and Glowing Connections... **What is known here about "Glowing connections":*

*The connections often, over time, are affected by an increase of resistance. *

*In fact, the Global Resistance of a connection (Rg) can be written as the sum of several sub-resistances ( r1+r2+r3, etc.).*

*For example, *

*Rg*
*= *
*r1** = Related to resistivity of materials (wires and connection device) related to temperature*
*+*
*r2** = Resistance related to oxidation (very important)*
*+*
*r3 =**Resistance related to the contact surface*_ (R =ρ L/S)_
*+*
*etc. (depending on specific cases)*​ 
*We know that all parts of this system are linked, and if one of these sub-resistance increase, all the sub resistances will increases, and step by step, the temperature will rise continuously. *

For example, r2 = Copper oxidizes readily in air, in time. And very few oxides can increase greatly the resistance. (for worse, we know that heat greatly enhances the oxidation of copper).

*So,always fo example, if r2 increases a little, it will generate a little small hot spot. The heat will be transmitted across the connection (heat dissipation). = The resistivity of materials will increase so* (the resistivity increase with the temperature)* = r1, r2, r3 will increases = Global Resistance (Rg) will increase again. The Global resistance increased, the heat will increase again. The resistivity of materials will further increase…ect.*

*= The temperature will rise according to an exponential curve*

*At the same time, the temperature rise will transform the PVC insulation (craking) = **This is allows the enabling environment to ignite a fire = **At this step, it's too late for safety.*

*At very high temperatures, thermal expansion will occur. This can also lead to arcs. *

*But t**he Joule effect alone can light the fire, without arch:*

*For example, **Forensic Studies have measured the heat in some glowing connections to be as much as 1400° F = It is enough to ignite all PVC ...*

*And **any protection cut off current, because t**hese phenomena may occur even with few watts…*

I hope I well understand your questions and I tried my best to answer. 
I remain at your disposal if you have comments.
Thank you for this exchange of views. 
Sincerely, 

French ICC


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Old thread, I know, but came across an over the pond NEC and Handbook in case any American Sparky is interested: 

BS7671: http://www.thailandlift.org/documents/BS7671-2008.pdf

Handbook: http://simpte.ch/ebooks/Guide%20to%20the%20Wiring%20Regulations%20-%2017th%20Edition%20IEE%20Wiring%20Regulations.pdf


----------



## Nuzzie (Jan 11, 2012)

meadow said:


> Several European enginears told me that they thought the SWER system and Multi grounded neutral was risky and was only favorable for remote villages at small loads otherwise ground currents can become an issue.
> 
> 
> What struck them most was how extensively the Multi Grounded Neutral system was used in North America and most of them agreed that it is one of the most unsafe systems to use.
> ...


I don't know how good your earth is in Aussie but in NZ this is definitely not true. The impedance of the general mass of earth is so high that effectively all of your current travels in the neutral unless you've got a high resistance connection or open neutral. Which other than not detecting it, your high earth loop impedance would lead to no protective devices operating in the event of a P-E short.


----------



## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

chewy said:


> Im told by sparkies that we have one of the best electrical systems in the world, electrocutions and electric fires are very rare to hear of yet the only pipe threaders onsite are manned by sprinkler apes. I believe your 120v is more lethal than our 230v, Ive been belted twice with no ill effect though Im not sure of amperage from outlets.


He's just an apprentice !
you know,
far too cocky for his own good 
So go easy on him !

View attachment 45482


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Nuzzie said:


> I don't know how good your earth is in Aussie but in NZ this is definitely not true. The impedance of the general mass of earth is so high that effectively all of your current travels in the neutral unless you've got a high resistance connection or open neutral. Which other than not detecting it, your high earth loop impedance would lead to no protective devices operating in the event of a P-E short.


Current takes all paths, not the path of least resistance. 

The general mass of the earth actually tends to be a good conductor, its getting to that conductor which is difficult. A single 10 foot ground rod may be a high impedance path, but when one interconnects many ground rods, concrete foundations, metal poles, pipes, ect... anything in contact with the soil causes resistance as a whole to go down. Many high resistance paths become one low resistance path. 

Interconnecting water pipes/gas pipes between buildings, phone and data shields ect further become another, if not a third parallel path. Pipes in particular have an impedance equal to or lower than a PEN conductor. 

On average where a MEN/PEN (TN-C) system is used half the current tends to be on other conductive paths beside the neutral. An amp clamp of each phase relative to the PEN or a net current reading (clamping all phases +PEN) often confirms that. 

You are correct a single residential earth system such as a few ground rods will yield a resistance to high trip an standard thermal magnetic breaker, but this is exactly why an RCD is required to fulfill earth loop impedance requirements in a TT system allowing a fault to be detected. 


Here are examples of current division from PENs:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=AB-DE8fWroGZY6FfzDB15A&bvm=bv.84349003,d.eXY

And where I got the pic from: https://openwiki.uninett.no/_media/gigacampus:samling:spenningssystem.pdf


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Old thread, I know, but came across an over the pond NEC and Handbook in case any American Sparky is interested:
> 
> BS7671: http://www.thailandlift.org/documents/BS7671-2008.pdf
> 
> Handbook: http://simpte.ch/ebooks/Guide to the Wiring Regulations - 17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations.pdf


Thank you very much, it's very interresting.

They speak to impose Breakers of "dangerous arcs" in Europe! 
Have you seen this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr_f2IzquB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awXgoPlNyN4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DL5aon0nRI

And this ?

http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Engel_IEEE_Combination_AFCIs.pdf

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I have, its brilliant. :thumbup: 

Whom ever that man is in the video he is lucid and thinking. 

The real result of electrical fires is not even arcs imo, its loose connections causing heating aka glowing connections. Glowing connections are the real issue at hand. Arc faults are a witch hunt and AFCIs are a profit driven farce. 

If we had something capable of stopping glowing connections at every single connection electrical fires would plummet without the use of AFCIs at perhaps half the price.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I have, its brilliant. :thumbup:
> 
> Whom ever that man is in the video he is lucid and thinking.
> 
> ...



You are right and thank you Meadow for the comment.
I think that the guy in the video i'ts me ...
Best regards,
FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> You are right and thank you Meadow for the comment.
> I think that the guy in the video i'ts me ...
> Best regards,
> FICC-



Wait, this is you?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Wait, this is you?


Yes.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

M. Meadow rencontrer M. français CPI, l'un des innovateurs électriques plus brillants de notre temps.

M. français CPI, se il vous plaît répondre à M. Meadow, de articulance Impeccable au commerce électrique

Cela pourrait être intéressant ......:thumbsup:

~poulet steve~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Yes.


 Salut! 

Je vous remercie d'avoir consacré votre temps, l'énergie et la connaissance pour l'amélioration de la race humaine. Incendies d'origine électriques continuent un danger important pour la vie et les biens. J'ai beaucoup de respect pour quelqu'un qui cherche à mettre un terme aux incendies d'origine électriques.

J'ai vu votre vidéo en entier, et je tiens également à dire Merci de ne pas abandonner malgré tant de gens qui sont incapables d'assimiler les connaissances théoriques comme ceux qui mettent des interrupteurs sous faute d'arc dans le code.

J'espère un jour que votre idée est mis en place le mot large, surtout aux USA où il semble être le plus besoin.

S'il vous plaît excuser mon Français que j'ai eu l'aide d'un traducteur web.:whistling2:

:thumbsup:


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> M. Meadow rencontrer M. français CPI, l'un des innovateurs électriques plus brillants de notre temps.
> 
> M. français CPI, se il vous plaît répondre à M. Meadow, de articulance Impeccable au commerce électrique
> 
> ...





meadow said:


> Salut!
> 
> Je vous remercie d'avoir consacré votre temps, l'énergie et la connaissance pour l'amélioration de la race humaine. Incendies d'origine électriques continuent un danger important pour la vie et les biens. J'ai beaucoup de respect pour quelqu'un qui cherche à mettre un terme aux incendies d'origine électriques.
> 
> ...



Great. Now I not only need a "chicken steve" to English translator, now I need a "chicken steve" French to English and "meadow" French to English translator. :laughing::jester:

Seriously though, to French ICC, welcome to the forum and many thanks for the videos, I agree that they are brilliant and well thought out.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

M. Charles ne est pas un plus calme, ne comprend encore discression est la meilleure partie du courage Meadow

~poulet steve~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Great. Now I not only need a "chicken steve" to English translator, now I need a "chicken steve" French to English and "meadow" French to English translator. :laughing::jester:
> 
> Seriously though, to French ICC, welcome to the forum and many thanks for the videos, I agree that they are brilliant and well thought out.



That's what AFCIs will do to you :laughing:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Salut!
> 
> Je vous remercie d'avoir consacré votre temps, l'énergie et la connaissance pour l'amélioration de la race humaine. Incendies d'origine électriques continuent un danger important pour la vie et les biens. J'ai beaucoup de respect pour quelqu'un qui cherche à mettre un terme aux incendies d'origine électriques.
> 
> ...


Hello and sorry for the delay.

First, thank you Meadow for your time and for this translation near perfect! :thumbsup: And thank you for your comments. 

As I am not alone, many people also thank you. We must also thank Jean Pierre DENONAIN, who was a very good senior expert engineer, which allowed us to advance considerably. Including the drafting of a summary report of the differences between US and French electrical installations; and the risk of fires in these specific installations. I went at Quebec to validate the US part of this report. (Quebec for technical language, French). Also others engineers (French and US) and US professionals with whom we have experimented the GCI Technology.

Glowing connections are the origin of virtually all fires. Because it’s impossible to detect an hot spot with breakers, GFIs or AFCIs. And for reasons known, connections aims to create hot undetectable hot spots. At first the temperature rises slowly, changing the insulating materials and making them more flammable. Then the temperature will rise by an exponential curve with a good chance of a fire. With or without arc. It is known, electricians, engineers, manufacturers knows, it's published, etc ...

I have some notes about that, if you're interested

The danger is the hot spot. All disorders come from it: No hotspot in an electrical installation, no fire... 

Thank you again for your encouragement and my turn to apologize for my English! 

Sincerely,

FICC


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> M. Meadow rencontrer M. français CPI, l'un des innovateurs électriques plus brillants de notre temps.
> 
> M. français CPI, se il vous plaît répondre à M. Meadow, de articulance Impeccable au commerce électrique
> 
> ...




Thank you chicken steve, but this is too much! :blink:

I'm just an electrician who has studied and worked! 

The answer is done.:thumbsup:

Thank you again, best regards and good to you!

French ICC


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Thank you*



mxslick said:


> Great. Now I not only need a "chicken steve" to English translator, now I need a "chicken steve" French to English and "meadow" French to English translator. :laughing::jester:
> 
> Seriously though, to French ICC, welcome to the forum and many thanks for the videos, I agree that they are brilliant and well thought out.


Thank you to you to accept me on the forum.Also thank you for your comment about videos. I love your great country and the people I met! 

Best regards,

French ICC


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Our National Bureau of Standards issued a report, listed in our Library of Commerce 37 years ago insisting 'glowing connections' as the major point of electrical fires

1977 Glowing connection report

I recognize some of the names as having a hand in the nec or cmp's

So, my Q is, why has the CPSC not taken this to task?

~CS~

*

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*

Notre Bureau national des normes a publié un rapport, figurant dans notre bibliothèque de commerce il ya 37 ans insistant 'connexions élogieux »comme le point majeur des incendies électriques


1977 Glowing rapport de connexion

Je reconnais certains des noms comme ayant une main dans le NEC ou de cmp

Donc, mon Q est, pourquoi le CPSC pas pris cela pour tâche?

~ CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello and sorry for the delay.
> 
> First, thank you Meadow for your time and for this translation near perfect! :thumbsup: And thank you for your comments.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you! Yes, I would be very interested. 

While the French system does have RCDs, meggering of circuits and wire in plastic flexible conduit which reduces the chance of an overdriven staple, it still lacks (like nearly all electrical installations) a way of detecting glowing connections. 

I thank you for your research as well. I think that unless glowing connections are addressed no amount of effort will stop electrical fires as they make up the bulk of fires.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Unfortunately I regret to say that people are very mislead on the true cause of fires. Many still believe arc faults are some type of miracle when they are not. Further, I still see people defending single strand aluminum and FPE breaker. 


Here are 2 threads from a forum I post in and what I read worries me a great deal:no: I have some good links in my post however:

AFCIs:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/should-we-recommend-circuit-breakers-updated-afci-97773/


This one in particular defends FPE:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/electric-off-good-reason-97886/


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*An another quote*



meadow said:


> That's what AFCIs will do to you :laughing:


"The Bigger the ... the more people Believe It". " If you repeat a ... often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself". Attributed to ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> "The Bigger the ... the more people Believe It". " If you repeat a ... often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself". Attributed to ...


That is exactly how it works, and toss in a pinch of poor education people are lead to believe something that only benefits those at the top.


As I often say, the truth is the truth even if no one believes it, a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That is exactly how it works, and toss in a pinch of poor education people are lead to believe something that only benefits those at the top.
> 
> 
> As I often say, the truth is the truth even if no one believes it, a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.


That's right.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> That's right.


Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the French electrical codes?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*The main cause of electrical fires*



meadow said:


> Thank you! Yes, I would be very interested.
> 
> While the French system does have RCDs, meggering of circuits and wire in plastic flexible conduit which reduces the chance of an overdriven staple, it still lacks (like nearly all electrical installations) a way of detecting glowing connections.
> 
> I thank you for your research as well. I think that unless glowing connections are addressed no amount of effort will stop electrical fires as they make up the bulk of fires.


Hello! 
An old video with C-Joule-Effect, Inc. About French electrical installations and protections. Initially, in France and USA, patterns were the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4

Best regards,

FICC


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks! 

Some good stuff to learn from. And no FPE


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Nfc-15-100*



meadow said:


> Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the French electrical codes?


Hello Meadow.

For French homes it’s NFC-15-100 Standard.

Below the Official website UTE & Afnor but it’s not free, it’s expensive:

http://www.boutique.afnor.org/recherche/resultats/mot/NFC%2015-100

SCHNEIDER Electric (SQUARE-D) publishes free parts of this standard here:

http://www.schneider-electric.fr/sites/france/fr/support/reglementation/norme-nf-c-15-100/reglementation-electrique-norme-nf-c-15-100.page

This website also for example:

http://www.schema-electrique.net/norme-electrique-NF-C-15-100-normes-installation-electricite-2013-2014.html#Règles générales de la norme électrique NF C 15-100

I hope you'll find your happiness 

Let me know if you need anything or an explain.

Best regards, FICC


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Thank you!   I am finding much happiness, along with lots of knowledge. Its like re-learning electrical all over again :thumbup:

So, by the codes, am I correct to assume that a 16 amp breaker can serve no more than 5 outlets and a 20amp no more than 8?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Further, why can a breaker have a higher amerage than a fuse for the same size wire? :blink::001_huh::blink: I apologize for the DIY questions but this is all new to me.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*The Lord's mysterious ways*



meadow said:


> Further, why can a breaker have a higher amerage than a fuse for the same size wire? :blink::001_huh::blink: I apologize for the DIY questions but this is all new to me.


Not aologize you're right it's weird ... :blink: 

It’s a new standard

- 1.5mm² (minimum) Fuse 10 Ampères or Breaker 16 Ampères.
- 2.5 mm² (minimum) Fuse 16 Ampères or Breaker 20 Ampères.

- 1.5mm² + Breaker 16 Ampères = 5 outlets
- 2.5mm² + Breaker 20 Ampères = 8 outlets

The Standards for homes make that electricians stopped calculate.:laughing:
.
For buildings that receive public, these standards do not apply to the same way. Everything has to be calculated, and this is checked by a control body.

For me, if I have to do an home electrical install

- 1.5 mm² = Breaker 10 Ampères, no outlet but only lights or other < 2200 Watts (220 v)
- 2.5mm² = Breaker 16 Ampères, 5 or 8 outlets (Depending on the expected power will be called).

Best regards, 

FICC

:whistling2:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*The Lord's mysterious ways II*



meadow said:


> Further, why can a breaker have a higher amerage than a fuse for the same size wire? :blink::001_huh::blink: I apologize for the DIY questions but this is all new to me.


Sorry Meadow, I do not quite understand :wallbash:

1.5 mm² 10 A for the 1.5 mm² and 16 A for the 2.5 mm², initially, of course, there is a margin of safety ... The difference between Fuses and Breakers is based on the idea that a breaker will react more reliably and faster than a fuse. 

But for me (220-230 V single phase) 1.5mm² = Breaker 10 Amp., 2.5mm² = Breaker 16 A, it's a good job.

Thank you for your interest ! :detective:

Best regards,

FICC


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC, 
We rarely install fuses in residential , can we assume you operate the same? 


<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


CPI français,
Nous installons rarement fusibles dans le secteur résidentiel, pouvons-nous supposer que vous utilisez les mêmes?



~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> French ICC,
> We rarely install fuses in residential , can we assume you operate the same?
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Chiken Steve ! 

No, we no longer installs fuse for homes. 

Only breakers.

:cool2:

Best regards,

FICC


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Not aologize you're right it's weird ... :blink:
> 
> It’s a new standard
> 
> ...



That is strange. 

You say France used to be 110 volt? 2.5mm2 is a bit larger than 14 gauge which comes out as 2.08mm2:

http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/2971C51A-C344-4B41-A03F-272F190B51BA/0/82_SPEC_A185.pdf




Is there a possibility that wire was restricted to a lower ampacity to compensate for voltage drop? Or was it because older wire had a lower temperature installation? Or just a greater degree of over engineering? 

In theory if our branch circuits became 240 volts we could lift the blanket rating in the NEC and fuse 14 gauge at 20amps and come out with 16 gauge THHN and fuse that at 15amps because voltage drop would no longer be as much of a concern. Newer THHN is rated at 90*C (it can handle more than that, trust me), and the NEC restricts it to 75*C but in the real word wire doesn't even come close to 45*C {even when sizing per 75*C and de-rating in conduit }(except perhaps an incandescent light fixture with over wattaged bulbs which is not to code to start with)

Thus in theory removing 240.4 (D) in the NEC would not constitute a safety hazard as the predominate driver behind the blanket is voltage drop rather than a dangerous over temperature condition if it were to be removed. After all, why can motor circuits and conductors over 10 gauge ignore it? 

Is my way of thinking correct? Just wondering aloud.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Sorry Meadow, I do not quite understand :wallbash:
> 
> 1.5 mm² 10 A for the 1.5 mm² and 16 A for the 2.5 mm², initially, of course, there is a margin of safety ... The difference between Fuses and Breakers is based on the idea that a breaker will react more reliably and faster than a fuse.
> 
> ...


 
See the above, I have a theory regarding that 

IMO a fuse is more reliable and faster than a breaker (at least the fuses I have dealt with) but when factoring RCD and a single phase to ground fault I could see faster clearing time as nothing has to wait for large currents or to be heated (fused open).


And welcome! I am fascinated by your interest in eliminating electrical fires as well as the difference between our codes and those the rest of the world uses. A lot can be learned as all of them have strong points.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That is strange.
> 
> You say France used to be 110 volt? 2.5mm2 is a bit larger than 14 gauge which comes out as 2.08mm2:
> 
> ...


Hello Meadow.

With the translation, I'm not sure to understand everything. Perhaps I misspoke, I apologize for my English. 

I'll try to clarify.

I think there is perhaps a confusion; There are no links between AWG and French wires. These Both standards have evolved independently. The above table gives just an idea of comparison. There is no historical links between the two.

So there was no reduction of French wires in the home electrical installations, if that's what you think.

The voltage change has had an interest for the electricity distribution network : By increasing the voltage, it decreased the intensity and thus the section of the public network wires.

I have answered to your question? :icon_rolleyes: Again sorry for my e,glish and thank you for you interest.

FICC -


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> See the above, I have a theory regarding that
> 
> IMO a fuse is more reliable and faster than a breaker (at least the fuses I have dealt with) but when factoring RCD and a single phase to ground fault I could see faster clearing time as nothing has to wait for large currents or to be heated (fused open).
> 
> ...


Thank you. I think also that there are good things everywhere ... In my opinion, for simple uses, a fuse is perfect. And in time we are sure it will work! 

But what is IMO please? 

Sorry for my ignorance

:hang:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow.
> 
> With the translation, I'm not sure to understand everything. Perhaps I misspoke, I apologize for my English.
> 
> ...




No its ok. I am sorry, my English isn't that good to start with 

AWG and French wires sizes are different. 

However that aside I think I have a theory as to why 2.5mm2 is good for a 20 amp breaker while only being good for a 16 amp fuse.

Home wiring used to be protected by fuses. The voltage used to be 110 volts. Thus, voltage drop is more at 110 volts than at 230 volts. This forced the use of larger wire simply because of voltage drop. So, 2.5mm2 was restricted to 16amp only because of voltage drop rather than thermal limitations.

When the voltage was raised to 230 volts and breakers starting coming along at the same time voltage drop was no longer a concern. So, as a result the ampacity rating could be raised without negative effect.


Similar could be done in the states if we switched to 240 volts. In our NEC 14 gauge is good for 20 amps 12 gauge is good for 25 amps and 10 is good for 35 amps but restricted to 15, 20 and 30 respectively predominantly because of us using 120 volts. 

My point is perhaps the wire amperage restrictions in fuses vs breakers exists only because voltage drop was more at 110 volts as apposed to 230 volts? 

I know people normally think wire tables are only based on thermal limitations, but other factors play a role to.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Thank you. I think also that there are good things everywhere ... In my opinion, for simple uses, a fuse is perfect. And in time we are sure it will work!
> 
> But what is IMO please?
> 
> ...


 
NO! You are not ignorant. Brilliant man with brilliant ideas!


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IMO= In My Opinion

also...

Intensity , or magnitude = ampacity

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>

= OMI, à mon avis

aussi ...

Intensité, ou l'ampleur = ampacité


~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks, I should have remembered that. My fault :icon_redface:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> No its ok. I am sorry, my English isn't that good to start with
> 
> AWG and French wires sizes are different.
> 
> ...



Hi!

I think I must learn every day ...So I'm always ignorant compared to someone who knows more. Everything is relative ... I dont speak a good English for example...  So, thank you so much for pre-translation, I get it!.

No, increasing of the voltage = 60’s, with differential Main breaker and independent ground electrode for all French homes. (Neutral schematic TT) 
1960's > Then or at the same time : standards for wires. So the standard for wires was made for 220 Volts after the increase of the voltage. Circuit Breakers are generalized in ... 90’s = There is no link :no: That's why I said “The Lord's mysterious ways”.

Tables son / protections are based at first IMO :smartassn thermal limitations. 

I hope that answers your expectations. If you need other things no problem.

Best regards and thank you,

FICC


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> IMO= In My Opinion
> 
> also...
> 
> ...



I'll have to think about it! 

Thank you!

:thumbsup:

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hi!
> 
> I think I must learn every day ...So I'm always ignorant compared to someone who knows more. Everything is relative ... I dont speak a good English for example...  So, thank you so much for pre-translation, I get it!.
> 
> ...


Ok, makes sense. Wire table came after 220 volts. You answered my question! 

May I ask, why is TT employed? What is wrong with TN_S?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Joke*



meadow said:


> Unfortunately I regret to say that people are very mislead on the true cause of fires. Many still believe arc faults are some type of miracle when they are not. Further, I still see people defending single strand aluminum and FPE breaker.
> 
> 
> Here are 2 threads from a forum I post in and what I read worries me a great deal:no: I have some good links in my post however:
> ...


*Hello,

Thank you very much for the links.
*
*The first time I heard of a certain product, in 2000, at a Headquarter of a big French  with my friend (colleague) at first we thought it was a joke. **Arcs ?* *But it’s* *glowing connection, the main cause of electrical fires! **But the R&D engineer showed us a printed documentation. **Waoo... it's was not a joke!!! **Then this engineer explained how this product works with details. At this instant, we :laughing: :laughing: and we have explained why, in our opinion, it could not work reliably. For us,unlikely that trips when we have to do,or they might trip often for… nothing.
*
*The video:
*
*http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=162009* *is a very good illustration* *of a good part of objections we said this day…Really funny! Thank you again**!

Come Back in 2000: So, we have explained why, in our opinion, risks that it does not trigger when they should, or they often trigger for nothing. (And may be worse, it should still be less reliable in the US electrical installations).
*
*The R&D engineer said no but he could not dismantle our arguments. So we could not imagine that these products are widely sold years later... Then, we meet Jean Pierre DENONAIN (2001). It is important to know all the skills out of standards of this expert engineer. Jean Pierre instantly :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: and he fully agreed with this analysis. **And at first, he does not see any need of .... for home security!*

*Best Regards,

FICC -*


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s

Bienvenue à notre nigthmare ....











Notez les différences .....










*VS.*











Even if one is an advocate of afci technology, it's easy to see they are complicated and intricate, inclusive of sensitive _'microprocessors'_ electronics.

The instructions on these clearly state to remove them before megger. Mother nature usually being the best megger i know of leads me to believe most of our installs result in decreased efficacy over time.:no:

Or as one inspector i know put it, _'we know the test button works, that's all' _:whistling2:

~CS~

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Même si l'on est un défenseur de la technologie AFCI, il est facile de voir qu'ils sont compliqués et complexes, y compris les sensibles _ «microprocesseurs» _ électronique.

Les instructions sur ces indiquent clairement de les enlever avant mégohmmètre. Mère nature étant généralement le meilleur mégohmmètre je sais de me porte à croire la plupart de nos installations entraîner une diminution de l'efficacité au fil du temps.:no:

Ou comme un inspecteur je sais mettre, _ «Nous savons les œuvres de bouton de test, ce est tout '_:whistling2:

~CS ~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello,
> 
> Thank you very much for the links.
> 
> ...




*And this is the truth, *electrical fires are predominantly caused by glowing, high resistance thermal connections with no arcing signature. Yet, few people know that fact while only being exposed to the statistics of electrical fires. Those statists create fear, and suddenly comes along a product that plays on that fear with false promises. With that comes the wide spread misconception that arc faults are the predominate cause of electrical fires as well as the false belief that a simple logic circuit can reliably detect them.

As Ive stated in this thread: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=166586 the amount of logic needed to differentiate between normal and abnormal arc faults is monumental. You need the computing power of at least an IPhone, or better yet a home computer. A $35 AFCI breaker with its mediocre logic board is wishful thinking. Dangerous faults are hit or miss, and nuisance tripping is rampant for the exact reason he breaker's circuit board has no clue that is has no clue. 

AFCI logic used in MV&HV utility feeder breakers and reclosers is many, many times more complex. It has to be because reliability is paramount for something POCOs count on to serve millions of customers while the NESC does not require it unlike the NEC. High bit oscilliographic wave form analysis is completed and run through a myriad of equations based on mathematical morphology with some systems even going as far as using layered artificial neural logic. The computing power is impressive and those make these relays know please the customer is mandatory rather than optional. Data can be gathered through SCADA, changes can be made to the algorithms unlike an AFCI breaker and the darn device can even tell you how far down the line the problem is.


The irony is, and I think its important to note this, that perhaps the biggest driver of MV and HV AFCI logic (sensitive earth fault protection) is the high ground pick up values in reclosers and feeder breakers resulting from muli grounded neutral distribution systems.

Unlike California and Europe where most MV to LV transformers are delta primary or connected phase to phase, North American POCOs use wye primary transformers with the primary neutral connected to a bare neutral wire that is earthed repeatedly (schematic TN-C for medium voltage). The end result is large neutral currents that divide between the MGN and all other parallel paths which makes low ground fault current detection (low zero sequence pickup values) (RCD logic) impossible. Phase time currents are typically set at 1200amps time inverse and ground pick up values might be set at 650 amps time inverse on a 13.8kv feeder breaker. That 650 amp inverse curve is necessary to prevent phase to neutral loads from tripping the breaker. 

The issue that arises is that down conductors go unnoticed. Something of like 2/3 of downed conductors do not touch the MGN. Rather they may come down on asphalt or a wooden fence. The situation while dangerous, does not draw enough current to reach standard ground pick up curves on an MGN system. If the wire came out of an insulator onto a wooden cross arm the same thing would happen. The conductor would remain live destroying the entire pole, which not only dangerous, costs POCOs money and increases outage restoration times. 

Thus, protective relaying engineers had to come up with a solution. What was discovered is that nearly all downed conductors had an arcing signature. Therefore, sensitive earth fault logic, or AFCI logic was developed for MV and HV feeder protective relays in an effort to catch these dangerous conditions. 

As anyone would guess, 3 wire lines or those with no phase to neutral connected loads do not need sensitive earth fault logic, or at least the one described above. All an EE has to do is set breaker ground pick up values to a few amps and use a definite time current curve. The end result is that nearly all downed conductor conductions trip a breaker immediately. 

Therefore we reach the conclusion the AFCI logic exists in pocos predominantly because GFCI logic could not be implemented to start with. 

Thus, if we apply the logic to indoor wiring, along with the fact most faults are ground faults (outside of glowing connections), and that all arc faults involving ground (which are the most common) put current on the earth wire, we can therefore say most arc faults can be detected via RCD.

Further, if we read up on this:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/afcis-not-needed-parellel-arc-faults-83753/



We discover that dangerous parallel arc faults are never under a few dozen amps and always pull over 100amps, so, in the end we can assume that a low magnetic trip will catch them. 

Finally, a hypothetical conclusion can be reached reached that 95% of faults that occur (parallel arc fault and arcing ground fault) outside of glowing connections, can be cleared via an RCD with a low magnetic trip. 

An RCD with low magnetic pickup will not nuisance trip or be as expensive or complex while still detecting most faults that an AFCI can. And on the contrary, AFCI logic in itself will not pick up on wiring errors like crossed neutrals or neutral to ground faults all fire hazards in themselves. 5, 10 and 30ma RCD also buys people protection against electrocution to some degree or another, something AFCIs can not. 


But we all know that just one cracker in the box. The majority of electrical fires are glowing connections, something that neither RCD or AFCI can catch. 


Part 1.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*



The video:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=162009 is a very good illustration of a good part of objections we said this day…Really funny! Thank you again!


Click to expand...

*
That's reality! That is what AFCIs actually do, they are not reliable. The electronics are to dumb, to primitive, to premature. 



And lets be honest, with all those electronics, will they will they survive transients and still work 30 years from now? 

*



Come Back in 2000: So, we have explained why, in our opinion, risks that it does not trigger when they should, or they often trigger for nothing. (And may be worse, it should still be less reliable in the US electrical installations).


Click to expand...

*

Your concerns are right. That is exactly what will happen in a lack of computing power. 

When large companies worked on these for utilities, their goal was to specifically avoid such an issue. 



*



The R&D engineer said no but he could not dismantle our arguments. So we could not imagine that these products are widely sold years later... Then, we meet Jean Pierre DENONAIN (2001). It is important to know all the skills out of standards of this expert engineer. Jean Pierre instantly :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: and he fully agreed with this analysis. And at first, he does not see any need of .... for home security!

Best Regards,

FICC -

Click to expand...

[/quote]*


I see it the same way, perhaps we speak the same language after all :laughing:


AFCI only hit the market because the are profit revenue, and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here, but look at everything else and soon one learns the nature of the farce. 

Both the American NEC and the global IEC need an overhaul.

Part 2


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If i _may _Meadow......

http://www.scada.com/

SCADA - supervisory control and data acquisition

Scada via Wiki

~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> If i _may _Meadow......
> 
> http://www.scada.com/
> 
> ...


Yup!  The remote monitoring of equipment like high voltage breakers. With the right logic in the breaker SCADA can tell you everything about a circuit, even an arc fault in progress.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's reality! That is what AFCIs actually do, they are not reliable. The electronics are to dumb, to primitive, to premature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see it the same way, perhaps we speak the same language after all :laughing:


AFCI only hit the market because the are profit revenue, and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here, but look at everything else and soon one learns the nature of the farce. 

Both the American NEC and the global IEC need an overhaul.

Part 2 [/quote]


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's reality! That is what AFCIs actually do, they are not reliable. The electronics are to dumb, to primitive, to premature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see it the same way, perhaps we speak the same language after all :laughing:


AFCI only hit the market because the are profit revenue, and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here, but look at everything else and soon one learns the nature of the farce. 

Both the American NEC and the global IEC need an overhaul.

Part 2 [/quote]

*"...and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here..."* 

*This is exactly THAT!*

:blink:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*



"...and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here..." 

This is exactly THAT!

:blink:

Click to expand...

[/quote]*


Its a sad reality. In the USA and Canada (and many other places outside of Europe) it is not common for electricians to megger (test) the circuit before energizing. Same goes for earth fault loop impedance testing. Thus, wiring errors such as over driven staples or standing ground faults are missed. 

The NEC requires that any new electrical installation is "free of defect" but truth is we don't know that unless we test.

In the past many electricians claimed we did not need to test because they were confident enough (and some can be) or that the "breaker not tripping" enough to indicate an installation free of defect. 

When AFCIs came into being they caught many issues much to everyone's surprise. Granted some trips were nuisance tripping on UL listed appliances, but in other cases electricians were discovering loose connection, over driven staples and over tightened clamps. Crossed neutrals and grounded neutral were another on... basically many scenarios where current was leaking to ground from code violations, some of which like over driven staples, can be a serious fire hazard that can go for years without being noticed. 

In fact, in one case a guy over on Mike Holt said that he was getting trips all because one copper strand ended up outside the wire nut resting against the meal switch box. 

Just goes to show you I guess.


FWIW, I have heard British electricians claiming that testing should be added to the NEC as a requirement for new installations because of the above.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This is from the UK forum Mr. French ICC. A fight does break out over some misunderstanding over TT earthing schematic in the NEC, but talks about adding testing requirements to the NEC:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...ks/96409-adding-test-procedures-nec-code.html


For those who are unfamiliar with UK testing I can post some You tube videos.


EDIT: I apologize for the link now that I read it, past the first page it goes down hill very fast, my apologizes Mr. French ICC. I will find a better one


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The NEC does have *550.17 Testing. *, but just for the sloppiest of manufactured electrical installs....:whistling2:~CS~:no:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> The NEC does have *550.17 Testing. *, but just for the sloppiest of manufactured electrical installs....:whistling2:~CS~:no:


Unfortunately its only Mobile homes, and compared to IEC testing, leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Here are some vids:


Testing of branch circuits part one and two (watch first):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VytiM2V0x8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flQiuX7zAjs



Panel test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyLsBfTdxOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUTn3t65na4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyLsi1GFqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvNfI__kYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-C8cwSA8Vg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtZpe4_Go78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9h3z9HPZcA








Testing is for a consumer unit (breaker panel) change is mandatory. I apologize if it has code violations, the commenters say otherwise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-tKS6sIMo 


Quick preview of some tests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgZGbzZqTE0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdstwqcaT_Y


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Earth Fault loop impedance explained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bpHMvg1rsk

Ok, Im done :laughing:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Ok, makes sense. Wire table came after 220 volts. You answered my question!
> 
> May I ask, why is TT employed? What is wrong with TN_S?


Hi!

I'll talk, I have to translate! :wallbash:

Sorry for my English and for the delay

Thank you for all your links, I very interesting. 

Sincerely

FICC -


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'll talk, I have to translate! :wallbash:
> 
> ...


Take you time 

I can translate, but not sure how technical terms will come out. Translating Earth fault loop impedance will probably be turned into bikini under wear :laughing::laughing: As I am not good with translators.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Interesting testings Meadow. :thumbsup:

They even have code values subscribed.

As you know , we do meg circuitry in the states , just not preemptively , usually only when we're in trouble.:whistling2: 

I wonder how our installs would fare here under their doctrine....

~CS~


----------



## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

meadow said:


> Ok, makes sense. Wire table came after 220 volts. You answered my question!
> 
> May I ask, why is TT employed? What is wrong with TN_S?


My guess would be that it depends on what sort of cable the supply authority has installed between the transformer and installation, TN-S might not be available. Similar with a TN-C-S type arrangement, the option to bond to the neutral creating a PEN conductor back to the transformer may not be allowed either. In which case you have to provide your own "earth" at the installation in the form of a TT system.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> My guess would be that it depends on what sort of cable the supply authority has installed between the transformer and installation, TN-S might not be available. Similar with a TN-C-S type arrangement, the option to bond to the neutral creating a PEN conductor back to the transformer may not be allowed either. In which case you have to provide your own "earth" at the installation in the form of a TT system.


Other than caravans, why would TN-C-S be forbidden? Does the risk of breaking the neutral have an role in this choice?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Interesting testings Meadow. :thumbsup:
> 
> They even have code values subscribed.
> 
> ...


I think it would be met with resistance. More along the lines of 'well we never have megged and not every single home has burned down, so why bother?'  But truth be even the best electricians can goof when in a hurry. Even cable manufactures have their hickups as other member have reported brand new roles of defective NM-B. 

But the good news is testers like this do all the thinking for you:

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uken/Ins...ltifunction-Installation-Tester.htm?PID=72320

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1508435.pdf


----------



## Aussielec (Apr 1, 2012)

meadow said:


> Other than caravans, why would TN-C-S be forbidden? Does the risk of breaking the neutral have an role in this choice?


The fact that the supply authority can't ensure the integrity of the PEN conductor along it's length is definitely a possibility. Other than that, my second guess would be that they can't keep EPR on the PEN within limits;the neutral isn't connected to the mass of earth in the first place or there may be trouble obtaining a minimum resistance between the PEN conductor and the mass of earth.

But like I said, only a guess.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's reality! That is what AFCIs actually do, they are not reliable. The electronics are to dumb, to primitive, to premature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see it the same way, perhaps we speak the same language after all :laughing:


AFCI only hit the market because the are profit revenue, and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here, but look at everything else and soon one learns the nature of the farce. 

Both the American NEC and the global IEC need an overhaul.

Part 2 [/quote]


*Hello Meadow, I hope you'r doing well.*

There may be more. To understand, I have to continue the story if you are interested.

Just after the meeting at the end of 2000, at the headquarters of a big French * we meet JP Denonain (2001). He thinks that the GCI Technology will prevent almost all electrical fires.* Sohe asked us to work for this project. For him, *saving lives is a goal*. After lots of problems here :furious: (incomprehensible at this time) we decide to look to the US. *So first, we make a comparison between the French and American electrical installations.* This brings us to your last question (#129). So for the response et to understand why we :laughing: it is important to expose who was JP DENONAIN. Here a part of his CV:

----------

http://hpics.li/9543e79

*Expert Engineer, Career at the APAVEand duties fonctions:*

*At the APAVE since 1970.*
Head of the electrical checks and inspection section.
Head of development, Lightning protection business with the APAVE Group.
Engineer in the Electrics Department.

*Since 1970*

*Engineer at the APAVE South West*
*Assistant technical engineer with industrials*

*Posts and missions:*

*Technical adviser, technical assistance engineer*
(Studies – Approvals of plans - surveillance & work receiving)

- Ford factory at Blanquefort
- Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique
- Bordeaux airport
- Bordeaux urban district council building
- Regional council building
- Hospitals
- Bordeaux expo fair
- Etc.

*Expert Engineer:*

- Adaptating electrical standards at Ford Germany to European Standards
- Drafting of electricity standards for Bordeaux airport

*Lightning protection study:
*
- IBM Site at CANEJAN (100 Hectares), 
- Pont d’Aquitaine, (Cable suspension bridge) 
- Civil, military and space aviation sites.

*Since 1977:*

*Expert Engineer with the GAPAVE*

- Maintenance of the electrical services documentation body,
- Drafting working practice documents

*1982:*

*Setting up SECUREL at ABIDJAN*
- Africa's first inspection body.

*From 1986 and 1992*

*Chief Engineer Electrical Inspection Section*

*In the field of lightning protection:*

Space flight (CNRS - Guyane Space Centre) Audit of vulnerable CNRS installations at KOUROU - Technical assistance for the REGULLUS & AIR LIQUIDE SPATIAL factories (KOUROU) - Inspections under the order issued on 28/01/1993: the launch pads of ELA 2 ARIANE 4 and ELA 3 Ariane 5.

- Civil and Military Aviation – Coastal Surveillance - France Telecom – EDF – SFR - etc

*Technical expert for the Ministry of the Environment.*

*In the field of electrical safety:*

- Joint technical inspections with the Department of technical inspections in constructions

*In the field of training:*

- Setting up and conducting training courses in NFC 15-100, Lightning, Company of Experts approved by the APSAD, ARIANE Espace.

*1998 - 2000:*

*EUROPEAN COMMISSION –Directorate-General XII for SCIENCE, RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT **MESA PROJECT:*

_*Methodology for analysing Electromagnetic Susceptibility, European Scientific research Programme 
*_
*Participants:* France: ONERA-DIMENSION-CERPEM-APAVE SUD. 
England: AEA Technology – EA Technology. Germany: IAM – SPECTRUM –TÜV.

*Chief Scientist for first and subsequent trials on the French Naval Coast Guard site. *

- Methodology - Lightning damage simulation programme at any point in the installation - Building or vulnerable equipment - Creation of a pulse generator - Comparison of trial results with the simulations.

Successful completion of the project in June 2000. 

*From 1975 to 2001*

Expert adviser for Legal and Insurance Experts in the electrical field

----------

*It is understandable** to see that Jean Pierre was an expert in the field of the prevention of electrical hazards but also an expert in the field of electromagnetic phenomenas.* :laughing:. 

Sorry for my English, now I must continue translation... :wheelchair:

Best regards,

FRENCH ICC


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Aussielec said:


> The fact that the supply authority can't ensure the integrity of the PEN conductor along it's length is definitely a possibility. Other than that, my second guess would be that they can't keep EPR on the PEN within limits;the neutral isn't connected to the mass of earth in the first place or there may be trouble obtaining a minimum resistance between the PEN conductor and the mass of earth.
> 
> But like I said, only a guess.


EPR? Still learning the IEC. 

That makes sense though in terms of having the concern that the neutral could break.

Out of curiosity, why would have a low resistance between neutral and earth matter? If the neutral is large enough voltage drop across is will be minimal, and any equal potential bonding within the structure will offset any remaining neutral to earth voltage.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> I see it the same way, perhaps we speak the same language after all :laughing:
> 
> 
> AFCI only hit the market because the are profit revenue, and the 30ma RCD built into them is exposing sloppy electricians creating a good picture here, but look at everything else and soon one learns the nature of the farce.
> ...



*



Hello Meadow, I hope you'r doing well.

There may be more. To understand, I have to continue the story if you are interested.

Just after the meeting at the end of 2000, at the headquarters of a big French  we meet JP Denonain (2001). He thinks that the GCI Technology will prevent almost all electrical fires. Sohe asked us to work for this project. For him, saving lives is a goal. After lots of problems here :furious: (incomprehensible at this time) we decide to look to the US. So first, we make a comparison between the French and American electrical installations. This brings us to your last question (#129). So for the response et to understand why we :laughing: it is important to expose who was JP DENONAIN. Here a part of his CV:

----------

http://hpics.li/9543e79

Expert Engineer, Career at the APAVEand duties fonctions:

At the APAVE since 1970.
Head of the electrical checks and inspection section.
Head of development, Lightning protection business with the APAVE Group.
Engineer in the Electrics Department.

Since 1970

Engineer at the APAVE South West
Assistant technical engineer with industrials

Posts and missions:

Technical adviser, technical assistance engineer
(Studies – Approvals of plans - surveillance & work receiving)

- Ford factory at Blanquefort
- Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique
- Bordeaux airport
- Bordeaux urban district council building
- Regional council building
- Hospitals
- Bordeaux expo fair
- Etc.

Expert Engineer:

- Adaptating electrical standards at Ford Germany to European Standards
- Drafting of electricity standards for Bordeaux airport

Lightning protection study:

- IBM Site at CANEJAN (100 Hectares), 
- Pont d’Aquitaine, (Cable suspension bridge) 
- Civil, military and space aviation sites.

Since 1977:

Expert Engineer with the GAPAVE

- Maintenance of the electrical services documentation body,
- Drafting working practice documents

1982:

Setting up SECUREL at ABIDJAN
- Africa's first inspection body.

From 1986 and 1992

Chief Engineer Electrical Inspection Section

In the field of lightning protection:

Space flight (CNRS - Guyane Space Centre) Audit of vulnerable CNRS installations at KOUROU - Technical assistance for the REGULLUS & AIR LIQUIDE SPATIAL factories (KOUROU) - Inspections under the order issued on 28/01/1993: the launch pads of ELA 2 ARIANE 4 and ELA 3 Ariane 5.

- Civil and Military Aviation – Coastal Surveillance - France Telecom – EDF – SFR - etc

Technical expert for the Ministry of the Environment.

In the field of electrical safety:

- Joint technical inspections with the Department of technical inspections in constructions

In the field of training:

- Setting up and conducting training courses in NFC 15-100, Lightning, Company of Experts approved by the APSAD, ARIANE Espace.

1998 - 2000:

EUROPEAN COMMISSION –Directorate-General XII for SCIENCE, RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT MESA PROJECT:

Methodology for analysing Electromagnetic Susceptibility, European Scientific research Programme 

Participants: France: ONERA-DIMENSION-CERPEM-APAVE SUD. 
England: AEA Technology – EA Technology. Germany: IAM – SPECTRUM –TÜV.

Chief Scientist for first and subsequent trials on the French Naval Coast Guard site. 

- Methodology - Lightning damage simulation programme at any point in the installation - Building or vulnerable equipment - Creation of a pulse generator - Comparison of trial results with the simulations.

Successful completion of the project in June 2000. 

From 1975 to 2001

Expert adviser for Legal and Insurance Experts in the electrical field

----------

It is understandable to see that Jean Pierre was an expert in the field of the prevention of electrical hazards but also an expert in the field of electromagnetic phenomenas. :laughing:. 

Sorry for my English, now I must continue translation... :wheelchair:

Best regards,

FRENCH ICC

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]*

His passing is tragic , a great man.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This is just heart breaking  The amount of disinformation about glowing connections and fraud cover-up. 45 minutes I will never get back:


http://www.spreaker.com/user/masterthenec/afci-rant


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

His passing is tragic , a great man.[/quote]

*Thank you**. Yes, he worked 3 ½ years with us and yes, it was a great man. His death has greatly affected us.
*
Here, all electricians, electrical engineers, engineers :laughing: instantly. Why? But physics laws are universal and the same on each side… *This leads to two things:*

*1/-The differences between French and US electrical **installations.* (to give an answer to your question). 

*The TT** was imposed in the 60s* (for homes) officially, because the new voltage, to increase the safety of users thanks the RCD. But I've also heard (in back rooms) it was also to prevent that users can steal current (the user can’t create another neutral to distort the counter because in this calculation = the RCD trips) And this reason is not necessarily stupid.

_Please, do not take wrong that follow, it is not question to say that it's better here or there, who is the best, ... _

*The following is from the report made with Jean Pierre Denonain and documented among other publications, some of which are from manufacturers.*

*From here, used to work with the TT, in 2000,* US Home electrical installations seems a litle more dangerous. In my memory it was or is still prohibited for certain activities (mining and quarrying). 

*This may suggest **that* *(summary):
*
*-Parallel arc phase to ground* (insulation fault) *Since 60's and 90's,* in the TT, the defect is limited to the value of the Main Breaker RCD (0.5 Amp. = 110 watts maxi for all circuits). In the US Homes, without GFCI, it will be the value of the overcurrent protection (10, 15,20, etc ... Amp. = 1.150, 1.725, 2.300 Watts) (even with GFCI, the risk remains in the US panels).This is a major difference for fire prevention. Here this point is taken very seriously. For example, in buildings open to the public, it is recommended (for decades) limit values for differential 0.3Amp. for lighting, instead of 0.5Amp. Because it assuming that beyond 70 watts an insulation fault is dangerous (fire hazard). In fact it is less. But 0.3 Amp is a compromise between security and continuity of the power supply.

*-The outbreak.* A Differential Breaker reacts fast. In addition, if you watch the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4 you may find that there is virtually no arc at the fault! This may be important if situation limits on a hot spot. A big arc of short-circuiting is not welcome on overheated and charred materials...

*Others points, specifics:* 

In the 80s, *the neutral bus have been removed* (explained in the video whose link is above).

*For** troubleshooting,* with the TT it is easier to identify faults: short circuit will trip the breaker, a ground fault will trip the differential device feeding the group of breaker:

*- Between 60's and **90s,* if only the main breaker trip without other Circuit breaker = it’s a parallel arc phase to ground >115 watts,
*- A**fter 90s,* If a differential device 30 ma trip = = it’s a parallel arc Phase to ground or perhaps Neutral to ground) > 7 watts


*All this have **accustomed us* *to** identify very precisely, easily*, *and precociously defects* that may occur, and for decades. And for historical reasons we have so several neutral systems in operation since decades, allowing us to compare,

*So we think that when** there is arcs, it's often too late.* *But in* *addition, since 60's years, parallel arc phase to ground are not problems because they are controlled at low values by RCD ! And more since 90's years, with differential devices 0.03 A, like your GFCIs! Others arcs ? Phase to neutral ? It's the job of fuse or circuit breaker... Into a connection ? It's glowing connection! And we can have a glowing connection without arcs, by Joule effect...*

*That's why **we know, that the only risk that remains uncontrollable is the glowing connection.* *And it's easy to understand and to see every day here that glowing connections are the cause of almost all electrical fires.* *In addition, **a lower voltage is perhaps more dangerous with a loss connection, failure can progress faster for the same power...*

*I believe that a study is at home too and it dates from 1977 “Chiken Steve”, reminded in a previous post:
*
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf

*About glowing connections this document is also Interesting :
*
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Important_Update_from_a_Certified_Fire_Investigator~20020812.htm

*In his publication, Combination AFCI That they will and will not do, Dr J.Engel also highlights the problem of Glowing connections:
*
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Engel_IEEE_Combination_AFCIs.pdf

_If there is someone in a position to discuss of this, I believe he can do it
_

*2/- Electromagnetic-phenomena:*

But I must continue to translate ... Sorry for the bad translation.

*Thank you for your attention.

Best regards,

FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Thank you!!!!!! :thumbup:

That is a gold mine of info, and it is fascinating why TT was chosen. The thing about TT is that is acts like a high resistance grounded system in that a fault to ground is low current, entirely governed by the resistance of the grounding electrode. I never thought it could have so many advantages.

What I find also note worthy is that in Norway the IT system was chosen and used successfully for decades. A down fall was that earlier installations had no RCD and grounding systems between home were not interconnected. This resulted in one phase going to ground which turned the system into a TT system and nothing picked up on it. The problem came when a second phase came to ground in another building. The result was 2 separate grounding (earthing) systems at different potential and only connected together via earth soil. This 230 volt difference in potential had no low impedance path and no RCD, which is thought to have cause many fires.

But the theory is much the same as TT earthing. In an IT system the first fault only lets as much current flow as natural phase to ground capacitance does. In fact in smaller IT system one can grab any phase and only be exposed to minimal current. This same concept is applied to isolated power systems in Hospitals where the first ground fault is supposed to not shut anything down with current flowing to ground very minimal.

IMO, if the IT system was refined such as interconnecting all neighboring building grounds, RCDs on all circuits and the neutral was earthed through a high resistance at the transformer this would perhaps be the safest system in the world. 

This thread has good info as it discusses Norways IT earthing:

http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...topics/209335/Norwegian_power.html#Post209335


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

In terms of the disinformation, Iwire started a thread in Mike Holt to address it. Post #7 IMO is very informative, the difference between USA and IEC based practices:


http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=167656


Also spotted today:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=167621


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I suppose someone should inform BBQ he's now a celebrity .....:whistling2:~CS~:laughing:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> His passing is tragic , a great man.


*Thank you**. Yes, he worked 3 ½ years with us and yes, it was a great man. His death has greatly affected us.
*
Here, all electricians, electrical engineers, engineers :laughing: instantly. Why? But physics laws are universal and the same on each side… *This leads to two things:*

*1/-The differences between French and US electrical **installations.* (to give an answer to your question). 

*The TT** was imposed in the 60s* (for homes) officially, because the new voltage, to increase the safety of users thanks the RCD. But I've also heard (in back rooms) it was also to prevent that users can steal current (the user can’t create another neutral to distort the counter because in this calculation = the RCD trips) And this reason is not necessarily stupid.

_Please, do not take wrong that follow, it is not question to say that it's better here or there, who is the best, ... _

*The following is from the report made with Jean Pierre Denonain and documented among other publications, some of which are from manufacturers.*

*From here, used to work with the TT, in 2000,* US Home electrical installations seems a litle more dangerous. In my memory it was or is still prohibited for certain activities (mining and quarrying). 

*This may suggest **that* *(summary):
*
*-Parallel arc phase to ground* (insulation fault) *Since 60's and 90's,* in the TT, the defect is limited to the value of the Main Breaker RCD (0.5 Amp. = 110 watts maxi for all circuits). In the US Homes, without GFCI, it will be the value of the overcurrent protection (10, 15,20, etc ... Amp. = 1.150, 1.725, 2.300 Watts) (even with GFCI, the risk remains in the US panels).This is a major difference for fire prevention. Here this point is taken very seriously. For example, in buildings open to the public, it is recommended (for decades) limit values for differential 0.3Amp. for lighting, instead of 0.5Amp. Because it assuming that beyond 70 watts an insulation fault is dangerous (fire hazard). In fact it is less. But 0.3 Amp is a compromise between security and continuity of the power supply.

*-The outbreak.* A Differential Breaker reacts fast. In addition, if you watch the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4 you may find that there is virtually no arc at the fault! This may be important if situation limits on a hot spot. A big arc of short-circuiting is not welcome on overheated and charred materials...

*Others points, specifics:* 

In the 80s, *the neutral bus have been removed* (explained in the video whose link is above).

*For** troubleshooting,* with the TT it is easier to identify faults: short circuit will trip the breaker, a ground fault will trip the differential device feeding the group of breaker:

*- Between 60's and **90s,* if only the main breaker trip without other Circuit breaker = it’s a parallel arc phase to ground >115 watts,
*- A**fter 90s,* If a differential device 30 ma trip = = it’s a parallel arc Phase to ground or perhaps Neutral to ground) > 7 watts


*All this have **accustomed us* *to** identify very precisely, easily*, *and precociously defects* that may occur, and for decades. And for historical reasons we have so several neutral systems in operation since decades, allowing us to compare,

*So we think that when** there is arcs, it's often too late.* *But in* *addition, since 60's years, parallel arc phase to ground are not problems because they are controlled at low values by RCD ! And more since 90's years, with differential devices 0.03 A, like your GFCIs! Others arcs ? Phase to neutral ? It's the job of fuse or circuit breaker... Into a connection ? It's glowing connection! And we can have a glowing connection without arcs, by Joule effect...*

*That's why **we know, that the only risk that remains uncontrollable is the glowing connection.* *And it's easy to understand and to see every day here that glowing connections are the cause of almost all electrical fires.* *In addition, **a lower voltage is perhaps more dangerous with a loss connection, failure can progress faster for the same power...*

*I believe that a study is at home too and it dates from 1977 “Chiken Steve”, reminded in a previous post:
*
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf

*About glowing connections this document is also Interesting :
*
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Important_Update_from_a_Certified_Fire_Investigator~20020812.htm

*In his publication, Combination AFCI That they will and will not do, Dr J.Engel also highlights the problem of Glowing connections:
*
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Engel_IEEE_Combination_AFCIs.pdf

_If there is someone in a position to discuss of this, I believe he can do it
_

*2/- Electromagnetic-phenomena:*

But I must continue to translate ... Sorry for the bad translation.

*Thank you for your attention.

Best regards,

FICC-*[/quote]

*Please** excuse me for any errors due to translation ... **thank you* :wheelchair:

*2/- Electromagnetic-phenomena:*

*The RCD, the Ground electrode independent of the neutral, **make residual current are lower in TT. **
*
*Given this, in our minds, below are the limits of an electronic system for reliable protection...**Both sides we all know that** every electronic device is susceptible over time;* we all know that several phenomena can to impact electronic device like surges, high frequencies, the natural aging, oxidation, etc ... *If one postulates that this can be controlled over a period of 20 to 30 years* (this smile, but admit, with advances in technology, we believe in, come on, we are optimistic) :laughing: *it still poses the problem of periodic audits to satisfactory beings.* I read that atone time some testers do not exist yet for security products.

*This is breathtaking*. But suppose that this also is set ... continue ...

So a device that would be able to make the difference between signing a normal phenomenon and producing these hundreds of times, even thousands in a day and almost the same phenomenon, but it would be dangerous... And remainsperfectly reliableyear after year ... It is almost miraculous. But here we talking about a difference ... very subtle. The identification of a signature, very fine, among hundreds of similar quasi-signing ... A tour de force ... But the fire it burns and the water, it wets.

*The power supply is not linear. Many phenomena to disrupt the networks = surges maneuvers intra cloud lightning, etc ...* It's embarrassing ... Then necessarily the current generates its own magnetic phenomena Domestic and they can be powerful. Starts motor (vacuum cleaners and others) microwave, capacitors, transformers… Then there is also the problem of electromagnetic waves from outside sources, etc ...

*Those who laid** sensitive electronic systems near electrical installations know, even for relatively simple systems such as measuring the resistance of a loop. ( Automatic**electronicdetection**of fires for example).* *Even taking all precautions, disturbances may occur that require troubleshooting and investigations that are sometimes ... real break heads ... *:wallbash:

*And in American homes, electromagnetic phenomena are also presentand the magnetic** compatibility is bad or worse that in TT…* 

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schéma_de_liaison_à_la_terre

*A signal so small, can not it find themselves changed unpredictably by unpredictable phenomena such as**?* *While the device is performing, what can it do? Expanding the detection spectrum?* *But we may get false alarms with troubleshooting breakages heads that go with**...*

*And** are we sure that it will trigger when it’s necessary?
*
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLmC5quELrE

*And it was in every way a labyrinthine system, which is used for what? *

*Parallel arcs Phase to Neutral are already controlled by **the Circuit breakers. Parallel arcs* *Phase to ground and neutral to ground can be prevented by simple differential devices that cost almost nothing ... They are simple, reliable and well suited for use in residential homes. *

*Even if the **system is reliable, t**o detect arc in a loss connection? But glowing connection can occur without arcs… *

*I'm pretty amazed because all is known by professionals ... It’s why we :laughing: with Jean Pierre who was so an Expert in the field of electromagnetic phenomena.* And experienced, educated people do not know all this?

*The** glowing connections are still not detected, they are THE major problem of security. It is known, also, to all good professionals.*

*If it's can help
*
*Thank you for your attention,*

*Best regards,

**FICC
*


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thank you!!!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> That is a gold mine of info, and it is fascinating why TT was chosen. The thing about TT is that is acts like a high resistance grounded system in that a fault to ground is low current, entirely governed by the resistance of the grounding electrode. I never thought it could have so many advantages.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'll read it. :thumbsup:

sincerely,


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Thank you**. Yes, he worked 3 ½ years with us and yes, it was a great man. His death has greatly affected us.
> *
> Here, all electricians, electrical engineers, engineers :laughing: instantly. Why? But physics laws are universal and the same on each side… *This leads to two things:*
> 
> ...


*Please** excuse me for any errors due to translation ... **thank you* :wheelchair:

*2/- Electromagnetic-phenomena:*

*The RCD, the Ground electrode independent of the neutral, **make residual current are lower in TT. **
*
*Given this, in our minds, below are the limits of an electronic system for reliable protection...**Both sides we all know that** every electronic device is susceptible over time;* we all know that several phenomena can to impact electronic device like surges, high frequencies, the natural aging, oxidation, etc ... *If one postulates that this can be controlled over a period of 20 to 30 years* (this smile, but admit, with advances in technology, we believe in, come on, we are optimistic) :laughing: *it still poses the problem of periodic audits to satisfactory beings.* I read that atone time some testers do not exist yet for security products.

*This is breathtaking*. But suppose that this also is set ... continue ...

So a device that would be able to make the difference between signing a normal phenomenon and producing these hundreds of times, even thousands in a day and almost the same phenomenon, but it would be dangerous... And remainsperfectly reliableyear after year ... It is almost miraculous. But here we talking about a difference ... very subtle. The identification of a signature, very fine, among hundreds of similar quasi-signing ... A tour de force ... But the fire it burns and the water, it wets.

*The power supply is not linear. Many phenomena to disrupt the networks = surges maneuvers intra cloud lightning, etc ...* It's embarrassing ... Then necessarily the current generates its own magnetic phenomena Domestic and they can be powerful. Starts motor (vacuum cleaners and others) microwave, capacitors, transformers… Then there is also the problem of electromagnetic waves from outside sources, etc ...

*Those who laid** sensitive electronic systems near electrical installations know, even for relatively simple systems such as measuring the resistance of a loop. ( Automatic **electronic detection **of fires for example).* *Even taking all precautions, disturbances may occur that require troubleshooting and investigations that are sometimes ... real break heads ... *:wallbash:

*And in American homes, electromagnetic phenomena are also presentand the magnetic** compatibility is bad or worse that in TT…* 

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%A9ma_de_liaison_%C3%A0_la_terre

*A signal so small, can not it find themselves changed unpredictably by unpredictable phenomena such as**?* *While the device is performing, what can it do? Expanding the detection spectrum?* *But we may get false alarms with troubleshooting breakages heads that go with**...*

*And** are we sure that it will trigger when it’s necessary?
*
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

*And it was in every way a labyrinthine system, which is used for what? *

*Parallel arcs Phase to Neutral are already controlled by **the Circuit breakers. Parallel arcs* *Phase to ground and neutral to ground can be prevented by simple differential devices that cost almost nothing ... They are simple, reliable and well suited for use in residential homes. *

*Even if the **system is reliable, t**o detect arc in a loss connection? But glowing connection can occur without arcs… *

*I'm pretty amazed because all is known by professionals ... It’s why we :laughing: with Jean Pierre who was so an Expert in the field of electromagnetic phenomena.* And experienced, educated people do not know all this?

*The** glowing connections are still not detected, they are THE major problem of security. It is known, also, to all good professionals.*

*If it's can help
*
*Thank you for your attention,*

*Best regards,

**FICC
*

[/quote]


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > *Please** excuse me for any errors due to translation ... **thank you* :wheelchair:
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> > So, in theory (and Id say reality) any electronic device be it GFCI, AFCI or electronic device for glowing connections (should one be developed) can fail from an myriad of surges. Testing each device periodically isn't always practical. That is very true from real world personal experience.
> >
> > Further, electronic interference can cause nuisance tripping. Which makes sense for AFCIs.
> >
> ...


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Unfuzz me fellas.....:blink:

Am i to understand the afci has this_ 'microprocessor'_ susceptible to all of mother natures wrath _(as well as any domestic wrath)_ , while the Euro differential is a non-computerized entity , not subject to the same?

_~Chicken Steve~_


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Unfuzz moi les gars .....:blink:

Dois-je comprendre l'AFCI a cette _ 'microprocesseur' [/ I] sensibles à toutes natures de mère Wrath  (ainsi que toute la colère intérieure) [/ I], tandis que le différentiel Euro est un non informatisé entité, pas soumis à la même?

~Poulet Steve~_


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Unfuzz me fellas.....:blink:
> 
> Am i to understand the afci has this_ 'microprocessor'_ susceptible to all of mother natures wrath _(as well as any domestic wrath)_ , while the Euro differential is a non-computerized entity , not subject to the same?
> 
> ...


_


My same thoughts. _


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*IT*



meadow said:


> Thank you!!!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> That is a gold mine of info, and it is fascinating why TT was chosen. The thing about TT is that is acts like a high resistance grounded system in that a fault to ground is low current, entirely governed by the resistance of the grounding electrode. I never thought it could have so many advantages.
> 
> ...



*Hello Meadow *and thank you for your interest.

IT system is used here for the reasons you specify, we agree :notworthy:
In France this schematic is usable only for installations supplied by a private transformer.
IMO It's a simple solution to the study and installation. But in my memory, operation is more delicate than TT particularly in large installations where here, this IT requires maintenance personnel for monitor operations.

If I can help.
Best regards,
FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello Meadow *and thank you for your interest.
> 
> IT system is used here for the reasons you specify, we agree :notworthy:
> In France this schematic is usable only for installations supplied by a private transformer.
> ...


 
Glad we agree. 

IT is a poor choice in residential. IT is prone to surges as well since it has no connection to earth. An arcing fault can cause over voltages. 

High resistance grounded is better, but in residential and commercial (where one transformer feeds more than one building) the purpose is defeated should a ground fault occur on a branch circuit without RCD or before an RCD. In this case the system will act as a corner grounded delta with no advantage. 

......................................................................................................



In France, were networks (supplies to homes) at one point in time 127/220Y during the conversion from 110 to 220 volts? 3x220 sans neutre? Latter becoming 220/380Y then 230/400Y like today?


In Belgium, I have heard that 133/230Y (3x230 sans neutre) is used in residential neighborhoods. IMO this system is the best for residential and light commercial. No neutral can fail on this system, and lower voltage to ground makes it safer. Plus no using the neutral as ground or ground as neutral by DIYs (unskilled people) because 133 volts is not a useable voltage.


Also, my understanding is that 50Hz European motors can be reconfigured from delta to wye? Motor in delta is 230 volts and can go on a 230 volts supply like Norway's 230v IT, while the same motor can be reconfigured to Y? Y allows 400 volts operation like in mainland Europe with 230/400Y supplies.

.......................................................................................................


I found this delightful video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05u1cBI9H7s


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Glad we agree.
> 
> IT is a poor choice in residential. IT is prone to surges as well since it has no connection to earth. An arcing fault can cause over voltages.
> 
> ...



*Hello,*

I dont know why some links were added at my last post...

*In France, were networks (supplies to homes) at one point in time 127/220Y during the conversion from 110 to 220 volts? 3x220 sans neutre? Latter becoming 220/380Y then 230/400Y like today?*

*Below an picture of our old electrical distribution network*

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/y1j.png


*In Belgium, I have heard that 133/230Y (3x230 sans neutre) is used in residential **neighborhoods**. IMO this system is the best for residential and **light commercial**. No neutral can fail on this system, and lower voltage to ground makes it safer. Plus no using the neutral as ground or ground as neutral by DIYs (unskilled people) because 133 volts is not a useable voltage.
*
*I don't know Belgium* *electrical network* _:no: _*Sorry*


*Also, my understanding is that 50Hz European motors can be reconfigured from delta to wye? Motor in delta is 230 volts and can go on a 230 volts supply like Norway's 230v IT, while the same motor can be reconfigured to Y? Y allows 400 volts operation like in mainland Europe with 230/400Y supplies.*

*If I well understand, you ask if it's possible to make run a motor designed for 380 volts in 220 volts ? if it's the question, there is no clear response. It's linked at the age of motor, for what initially designed, the trademark of motor, it's model, ect...It's a large topic and good spe******ts can speaking about of this better that me.*

*For the general cases, It's possible for small motors with the help of a capacitor. It's necessary to change wiring at the terminals Y /Delta (triangle). It's easy to inverse the rotation by change the wires of capacitor at the terminal of motor (W terminals). **But engine performance are often worse (-20 to 30% approximately) there arises especially the problem of the starting motor linked to its brand, model, etc .For a good starting motor, It's can run or not.*

*Generaly for virtually all motors 1, 1,5, 2 horses power,(perhaps 95-97%) in these conditions OK…For others motors more powerless more the percentage (95-97%) fall.*

*It's necessary to make studies for find other solution each case by each* *case.*_:whistling2:_


*Your video*

*It's an good educative video for start... it's very clear* _:thumbsup: _

*Below some drawing about the french electrical network, in French language, I think that it's simple to understand without mistake. *

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/french-electrical-network.png

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/french-electrical-ne_o52.png

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/french-electrical-ne_6ho.png

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/french-electrical-ne_t0j.png

*No problem if you need of other precisions, if I can answer...
*
*Best regards,*

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello,*
> 
> I dont know why some links were added at my last post...
> 
> ...



Thank you! I guess I should have worded it better regarding motors. This is what I had in mind:

230 tension phases triangle, 400 tension phases etoile: 


http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/911025Sanstitre.gif


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...UsA/w353-h234-no/Plaque+signal%C3%A9tique.png


https://www.google.com/search?q=230...m%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D6153;353;234


https://www.google.com/search?q=230...ectriques.net%2FElectr%2Ftriphase.htm;292;195


..................


400 tension triangle, 720 tension etoile:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...moteur&ei=I_LgVPjBL4yvggTw-QE&ved=0CAkQ9C8wAA


Basically a motor wound with 230 volt coils can be wired in delta to fit a system with 230 volts between phases, and wye (etoile) to fit system with 400 volts between phases.


Similar, a larger motor with 400 volt coils can be in triangle for 400 volt system between phases and etoile for 690 volt system between phases.

So, the same motor can handle two voltages only by configuration.


I bring this up because I think it is done frequently in Europe, or at least 50Hz motors have that option. 

I apologize if its translating poorly, I included links need be. Hope they help 


I bring multi voltage systems up because a while ago I did a theoretical analysis (purely theoretical) of creating a global voltage and frequency standard, mainly adopting a new voltage standard in North America over time with the infrastructure already standardized (in place). 

I guess France had to do something similar when eliminating 110 volts? 


Post #6 is describes the proposed voltage standard I came up with (along with restrictions to occupancy and qualification) :

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=165535


............................................................................................


A thread on standardizing voltage, post # 56:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=156121&page=6 



........................................


A bit off topic to glowing connections :whistling2::laughing: 


Am I correct to assume, that because the voltage went from 110 volts to 230 volts that hazards associated with this caused RCDs to be implemented as well as TT earthing, to simply other considerations outside of voltage?


(I apologize for taking smiles out, but forum will not let me post more than 8)


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

In regards to a previous post, are wire nuts less likely to fail than the screw terminals in France? 

Both can sub come to a glowing connection, however, I have heard from British Electricians that wire nuts are inferior and their terminal blocks are less likely to fail?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thank you! I guess I should have worded it better regarding motors. This is what I had in mind:
> 
> 230 tension phases triangle, 400 tension phases etoile:
> 
> ...


*Hello Meadow. *
*
Do not apologize you for translation, it's my English :whistling2:
I understand better, thank you :thumbsup:
I'm very busy for 1-2 days so I come back as soon as can do it (translations).
Best regards,

FICC-
*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello Meadow. *
> *
> Do not apologize you for translation, it's my English :whistling2:
> I understand better, thank you :thumbsup:
> ...


 
Thank you! Its ok, don't worry  I will be hear, and as is I need to do research of my own, you have provided me with a wealth of knowledge.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thank you! I guess I should have worded it better regarding motors. This is what I had in mind:
> 
> 230 tension phases triangle, 400 tension phases etoile:
> 
> ...




*OK, sorry Meadow, I have not understand the question ! :furious:*

(I thought the goal was to change an engine designed only for 400)

Of course 380 V Y 230 V Triangle and 720 V Y and 400 V triangle. All works well, there are designed for that, no problem :thumbsup:

Take care, on the picture http://www.electriciantalk.com/null

"Réseau" 3x230V it's no longer in operation here, (very rare) 

-----------
_"Am I correct to assume, that because the voltage went from 110 volts to 230 volts that hazards associated with this caused RCDs to be implemented as well as TT earthing, to simply other considerations outside of voltage?"_
-----------

Like in the post # 161:

_"The TT was imposed in the 60s (for homes) officially, because the new voltage, to increase the safety of users thanks the RCD. But I've also heard (in back rooms) it was also to prevent that users can steal current (the user can’t create another neutral to distort the counter because in this calculation = the RCD trips) And this reason is not necessarily stupid".
_
----------

*In addition, in any event, even if the RCD were installed only at the beginning to the safety of people, use it appeared since over ... 50 years and by comparaison with others neutral schematics that they have an essential utility for fire prevention! *

*It's very very important, really a key point.*

It's like V-i-a-g-r-a. This is the second unintended effect that is as important as the first target!

I hope you have brought the information you expected and sorry for the error and the delay. I will read your links, they seems very interesting but I need to translate and I'm busy. :boxing:
As soon as possible with pleasure 

Best regards

FICC-​


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Glowing connections*



meadow said:


> In regards to a previous post, are wire nuts less likely to fail than the screw terminals in France?
> 
> Both can sub come to a glowing connection, however, I have heard from British Electricians that wire nuts are inferior and their terminal blocks are less likely to fail?


*Hello Meadow* 

*I hope no offense **anyone but* *I can not agree with this. IMO I think that connections and glowing connections are a big topic very important for the public safety... *:detective: *Glowing connections cause victims milllers every year ... *:devil2:

*IMO It's a topic which should be completely exposed to be precise, with documents and publications. What do you think about ? *

*Best regards, and thank you for all *

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> OK, sorry Meadow, I have not understand the question !
> 
> (I thought the goal was to change an engine designed only for 400)
> 
> ...


 Its ok. ​ That is very interesting to know. Y vs triangle for 50hz motors. I finally understand. ​ Your picture does not work though, I guess the link broke.​ 


> "Réseau" 3x230V it's no longer in operation here, (very rare)


​
Ok, that makes sense!  I had heard of this in old vintage electrical installations. It peaked my curiosity. 

Why did they stop (abandoned) 3x230 with 3x400+N? IMO 3x230 pas neutre safer, less dangerous since the voltage (tension) to earth is less. 133 vs 230. 



> -----------
> _"Am I correct to assume, that because the voltage went from 110 volts to 230 volts that hazards associated with this caused RCDs to be implemented as well as TT earthing, to simply other considerations outside of voltage?"_
> -----------
> 
> ...


 Sorry for the double question. TT is not allowed in the NEC, and everything in the US by experts say is always "you need a low impedance path". As you can see TT is a new concept to me, so I apologize for needing time to grasp the concept.​ As they say what is seen regularly is easy to understand, what is not seen is harder to understand.​ TT is very new to me, but I am beginning to understand it more. :thumbsup:​ Basically the soil acts as a resistor which limits fault current to a low value.​ This value produces a lower amount of energy and arcing during a earth fault and is promptly cleared via RCD breaker. Because the current is limited the thermal magnetic breaker does not trip, but only the RCD indicating a ground fault and not a short circuit.​ In a nut shell we have a high resistance earthed neutral (similar to that effect)​ Very clever I might add. ​ Further, the RCD provides people safety in addition to fire safety.​ 


> It's like V-i-a-g-r-a. This is the second unintended effect that is as important as the first target!


​
Maximum effect, 2 birds one stone 
​


> I hope you have brought the information you expected and sorry for the error and the delay. I will read your links, they seems very interesting but I need to translate and I'm busy.
> As soon as possible with pleasure
> 
> Best regards
> ...


 ​ I am learning. I finally understand TT earthing! A fascinating concept.  ​


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Does France outlaw steel screws for electrical terminations? How do French electricians prevent glowing connections? What are the legal ways to make a splice?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*


French ICC said:



Hello Meadow 

I hope no offense anyone but I can not agree with this. IMO I think that connections and glowing connections are a big topic very important for the public safety... :detective: Glowing connections cause victims milllers every year ... :devil2:

Click to expand...

*No offense! All is harmony! 

My apologies as I received this only second hand, and I still am sorting through all the information. 

I agree, glowing connection are the biggest cause of electrical fires. Eliminating them will save countless lives all over the world. 

A doctor saves one life and we have a ticker tape parade, but an engineer saves the lives of millions of lives yet no honor 

Such an accomplishment deserves huge reward and recognition. You deserve all the honor here. :thumbup: 





*



IMO It's a topic which should be completely exposed to be precise, with documents and publications. What do you think about ? 

Best regards, and thank you for all 

FICC-

Click to expand...

[/quote]*


*I believe this topic should be completely exposed among various other problems in our trade being covertly repressed. *

*Glowing connections are a real, very serious problem and Id say are responsible for most electrical fires yet that truth is scrubbed from almost every institution and nearly every piece of literature on electricity and fire prevention. People are left with an information void. *

*What few electricians, engineers and experts are ever told , or figure out, is that information they are exposed to is not "pure". Its tailor made with intent to have those exposed to it reach a conclusion that the crafters of such desire. People believe (and they really have in theory) reached their own conclusion, but what is never brought to light is the amount of raw real world statistics redacted without any awareness of it missing in action. *

*I think the amount of traffic this thread is getting may be proof of that to some extent. Not judging anyone here, but so far I could hypothesize cognitive dissonance or more likely others just not being aware of the truth they were never told. Clearly, few electricians at no fault of their own are never taught what glowing connections really are, what they do, or to the extent they occur.*

*Same I could say for grounding and bonding, where to this day many electricians peddle incorrect information that has cost lives (ie, driving ground rods at faulted equipment hoping the danger will go away). *

*If every electrician knew to what extent glowing connections played in electrical fires and not having something already in 2015 to stop them, would be met with the same alarm as if someone wired a home without any circuit breakers. I am being wholly serious. *

*If today I wired a home without any OCPDs I would draw opposition. I could not claim "well, as long as nothing happens nothing will catch fire" "but its THHN wire in metal conduit" "the boxes are 4 hours fire rated" That claim would be thrown out because wisdom has given us valuable insight. We are well aware of the importance of OCPDs in fire prevention. Thus, using those same arguments to discredit glowing connections is just as silly. It does not change reality. *

*Reality is short circuits do and will happen and the power needs to be cut before the wires glow red hot.*

*Reality is connections do and will fail (just as much) and power needs to be cut before wires glow red hot. *

*The sad reality is that the latter is missing in action. But few are aware of that. *


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> cognitive dissonance


A billion dollar industry can parlay a lot of that Meadow. :whistling2:

We've read constant pro-afci articles in our trade mags, but you'll never see Dr Engle's paper published, or even referred to by ANY writer or trade periodical.

In fact, i've fielded outrigth _refusals_ by editors. 

The CSPC is completely ignoring UL's glowing connection findings

And no NRTL is going to revisit it, despite evidence to the contrary.

But hey, if they can coerce us into a war here, electrical fairy tales should be a cakewalk....


~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> A billion dollar industry can parlay a lot of that Meadow. :whistling2:
> 
> We've read constant pro-afci articles in our trade mags, but you'll never see Dr Engle's paper published, or even referred to by ANY writer or trade periodical.
> 
> ...


It doesn't fit the agenda. Statistics or information that is not appetizing is discarded. The simplest yet most powerful concept ever created in shaping public opinion. 

Where anything is devoid of facts imagination takes over and with imagination you get fairy tails.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Arcs are a big joke?*



meadow said:


> Its ok. ​ That is very interesting to know. Y vs triangle for 50hz motors. I finally understand. ​ Your picture does not work though, I guess the link broke.​
> Ok, that makes sense!  I had heard of this in old vintage electrical installations. It peaked my curiosity.
> 
> Why did they stop (abandoned) 3x230 with 3x400+N? IMO 3x230 pas neutre safer, less dangerous since the voltage (tension) to earth is less. 133 vs 230.
> ...


Hello 

Thank you for your interest!

_Why did they stop (abandoned) 3x230 with 3x400+N?_
I think it was when the tension change was done.

_Sorry for the double question. TT is not allowed in the NEC, and everything in the US by experts say is always "you need a low impedance path". As you can see TT is a new concept to me, so I apologize for needing time to grasp the concept. As they say what is seen regularly is easy to understand, what is not seen is harder to understand. _

It's exactly that. One can compare only that one can see...It's for that we in 2000 because we had tools to compare and to understand the joke. And if US electricians read French publications (often made by manufacturers who are also in USA ) US electricians :laughing: also. IMO, I think that there is good chance that this point is the basis of our problem...

_TT is very new to me, but I am beginning to understand it more. Basically the soil acts as a resistor which limits fault current to a low value. This value produces a lower amount of energy and arcing during a earth fault and is promptly cleared via RCD breaker. Because the current is limited the thermal magnetic breaker does not trip, but only the RCD indicating a ground fault and not a short circuit. _

It's exacly why, this schema is forbiden in specifics areas here, because it seems more dangerous. 

_In a nut shell we have a high resistance earthed neutral (similar to that effect) Very clever I might add. _

Your reasoning is very interesting. When I was in USA, I'm asking in my mind : May be it's for that Americans people think that arcs are the main cause of electrical fire. Because an arc is noisy, and each default make an arc, and everybody can ear arcs. Arc = default = fire ? 

Here, with the TT we cans see that arcs are the consequence of defaults and it's too late when one can hear. And with tis TT, we can see and understand since decades that arcs are not the root of the problem!

_Further, the RCD provides people safety in addition to fire safety._

Yes in a very important way!

It was a key point IMO for the 2000’s 

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> Does France outlaw steel screws for electrical terminations? How do French electricians prevent glowing connections? What are the legal ways to make a splice?


Hello Almost always lurkin 

At first thank you to apologize me for my bad English and if I make mistakes.

_Does France outlaw steel screws for electrical terminations?_

No you can use material with steel screws but there is less and less. A lot of connections are with spring. That is not necessary best. 

_How do French electricians prevent glowing connections? _

Circuit Beaker, GFCI, AFCI, Nothing can detect a Glowing connection!* :no:

_What are the legal ways to make a splice?_

A splice here, is not legal (except in rare conditions). I think that is not necessary intelligent, a good splice well done and well maintained in time is perhaps the best connection. 

I hope I respond at your questions. If you want some precisions or other, you can come back, no problem, if I can answer. Thank you for your interest.

Best regards

FICC-

*Currently on the market


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> No offense! All is harmony!
> 
> My apologies as I received this only second hand, and I still am sorting through all the information.
> 
> ...



*I believe this topic should be completely exposed among various other problems in our trade being covertly repressed. *

*Glowing connections are a real, very serious problem and Id say are responsible for most electrical fires yet that truth is scrubbed from almost every institution and nearly every piece of literature on electricity and fire prevention. People are left with an information void. *

*What few electricians, engineers and experts are ever told , or figure out, is that information they are exposed to is not "pure". Its tailor made with intent to have those exposed to it reach a conclusion that the crafters of such desire. People believe (and they really have in theory) reached their own conclusion, but what is never brought to light is the amount of raw real world statistics redacted without any awareness of it missing in action. *

*I think the amount of traffic this thread is getting may be proof of that to some extent. Not judging anyone here, but so far I could hypothesize cognitive dissonance or more likely others just not being aware of the truth they were never told. Clearly, few electricians at no fault of their own are never taught what glowing connections really are, what they do, or to the extent they occur.*

*Same I could say for grounding and bonding, where to this day many electricians peddle incorrect information that has cost lives (ie, driving ground rods at faulted equipment hoping the danger will go away). *

*If every electrician knew to what extent glowing connections played in electrical fires and not having something already in 2015 to stop them, would be met with the same alarm as if someone wired a home without any circuit breakers. I am being wholly serious. *

*If today I wired a home without any OCPDs I would draw opposition. I could not claim "well, as long as nothing happens nothing will catch fire" "but its THHN wire in metal conduit" "the boxes are 4 hours fire rated" That claim would be thrown out because wisdom has given us valuable insight. We are well aware of the importance of OCPDs in fire prevention. Thus, using those same arguments to discredit glowing connections is just as silly. It does not change reality. *

*Reality is short circuits do and will happen and the power needs to be cut before the wires glow red hot.*

*Reality is connections do and will fail (just as much) and power needs to be cut before wires glow red hot. *

*The sad reality is that the latter is missing in action. But few are aware of that. *[/quote]




*Hello ! *

*I'm completly agree with all you say. Here, with our comparaison tools,* _(The TT with RCD prevent also the insulations faults - parallel arcs between Phase and PE or as the case, Neutral to PE if the value of the differential device is low )_ *all professionnals understand and know that glowing connections are the main cause of electrical fires* 

*- Because nothing can detect a isolated hot spot; *
*- Because connections have vocation to create this hot spots; *
*- Because connections have also vocation to increase the temperature of hot spot in a exponential way until the melt and the probable firing, without alert any protection.* :devil2:

*Here, professionnals and experts think that 80-90% of electrical fires are linked to glowing connections.* 

*The Professionnals make electrical installations like this because in their mind, nothing exist to prevent a glowing connection. There is nothing to do other. Just to hope that nothing happens! They say all "With the glowing connection problem, it's like to make electrical installations without fuse or circuit breakers" And it's the truth!*

*So you have the same words!*

*I had many meeting with US and Canadien professionnals of electricity. Engineers, contractors, and others, often at the top level. And virtually all know also that glowing connections are the root of problem!*

*If I can help,*

*Best regards,*

*FICC- *


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Thank you, FICC! A lot of glowing connections seem to be caused by loose screws. Those can be prevented by more careful work. Do French electricians use torque screwdrivers, the kind that show exactly how tight the screw is, measured in Newton-meters? Or has your country solved the problem by using some other kind of termination? 

Bad material choices seem to increase the risk. That's why I asked about steel screws in particular. 

It is legal in the US to terminate a connection to a receptacle by simply inserting the wire in a hole where a weak spring grabs the wire. Am I right that this would be unthinkable in France? If my description doesn't make sense to you, Google "Leviton Quickwire" for illustrations of what it looks like and how it works. 

It's fascinating that splices are illegal. That's a big difference in how people think. In the US many people think it's superior workmanship to build a splice in a box and feed a device using a wire from the splice (it's called "pigtailing"). 

The UK does splices with screw terminal strips, which they call "chocolate blocks". Are those also illegal in France? 

You don't have to apologize for your English, by the way. Now, if I said something in French, that would be so bad I'd have to apologize to your entire country and the ghosts of your great authors.

(BTW this is the THIRD time I've posted this because the [gosh-darned] forum software keeps removing my paragraph breaks)


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Glowing connections*



Almost always lurkin said:


> Thank you, FICC! A lot of glowing connections seem to be caused by loose screws. Those can be prevented by more careful work. Do French electricians use torque screwdrivers, the kind that show exactly how tight the screw is, measured in Newton-meters? Or has your country solved the problem by using some other kind of termination?
> 
> Bad material choices seem to increase the risk. That's why I asked about steel screws in particular.
> 
> ...



Hello 

_A lot of glowing connections seem to be caused by loose screws. Those can be prevented by more careful work. _

You are right for connections a careful work is very important, and multiple recommendations exist for a good job. 

_Do French electricians use torque screwdrivers, the kind that show exactly how tight the screw is, measured in Newton-meters? _

For specific areas yes. For residential almost never. The problem is that, even you make a very good job, in time, several phenomena make loose screws. The period ground vibration, vibration roads or streets, air, electromagnetic efforts, etc ... And for periodic checks, it's tricky. Retighten a screw is tricky, the retightening can damage more the copper, etc ...

_Or has your country solved the problem by using some other kind of termination?_ 

No. In my memory, "modern connections " exists since the Second World War with hundreds or thousands patents for improving them ... springs, screws, cables, anti-release devices, many control devices...Everything has been tried since a long time. There is no solution that can guarantee a glowing connection will not occur in time (post # 85).

_Bad material choices seem to increase the risk. That's why I asked about steel screws in particular._

Yes of course. Generally terminals and screws are in brass. Of course also the steel used for screws have a specific treatment. Like the steel of springs for connection with grabs-wire! Usually except sometimes screws, terminals and screws are in brass with treatment also.

_It is legal in the US to terminate a connection to a receptacle by simply inserting the wire in a hole where a weak spring grabs the wire. Am I right that this would be unthinkable in France? _

Not. In france we use the same.

_If my description doesn't make sense to you, Google "Leviton Quickwire" for illustrations of what it looks like and how it works. _

Ok, thank you. It's the same in France.

_It's fascinating that splices are illegal. _

Yes, I'm agree with you. I think that there was accidents with bad job, and especially for connection solid wire with flexible wire. But I do not have enough information on this. I do not want to say inaccurate things. Splices are prohibited here since a very long time .

_That's a big difference in how people think. In the US many people think it's superior workmanship to build a splice in a box and feed a device using a wire from the splice (it's called "pigtailing&quot)._

I'm agree with you, a good splice with a good system maintains is not a bad connection! Is often better than screw or spring connections. But this does not solve the problem of glowing connections.

_The UK does splices with screw terminal strips, which they call "chocolate blocks". Are those also illegal in France? _

No we have since 50 years. The first model were made of porcelain. _(For the "little story"a large French company operating in the US has embarked on electrical equipment because originally it was a porcelain factory)_ So we have and we call them "dominos". And we have also glowing connections. We have also since 20 years, spring connections. Also with glowing connections. In the video report on You tube "The Electrical French Connection or the Real Truth about AFCIs" at 7'.35 >8.58 there is a short summary of the glowing connections problem with 2 or 3 photos. 

_You don't have to apologize for your English, by the way. Now, if I said something in French, that would be so bad I'd have to apologize to your entire country and the ghosts of your great authors._

Thank you for your indulgence and you have great authors also :thumbup: and a great Country! :thumbsup: Thank you for your interest, if I can help,

Best regards,

FICC-


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> No offense! All is harmony!
> 
> My apologies as I received this only second hand, and I still am sorting through all the information.
> 
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > No offense! All is harmony!
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Metal box*



meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome!
> ...


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## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

French ICC said:


> * it seems that metal box is better*
> *It will be desirable to confirm*...
> 
> But it in my mind, for 3 reasons:
> ...


as a canadian, i say thank you, we don't use those plastic box, and are often laugh at for our use of metal gangable box


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Metal box*



metalpats said:


> as a canadian, i say thank you, we don't use those plastic box, and are often laugh at for our use of metal gangable box


Hello! 

I think you are right to :laughing: !

Unfortunately, there is no metal box here ! :furious:

Thank you!

FICC-


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## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello!
> 
> I think you are right to :laughing: !
> 
> ...


i was sure euro device did not use a box. i was thinking they were either surface mount or the device itself was the box and they had a cover plate

like in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NZE9R2zgwwM#t=1600


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Thank you again, FICC. This is fascinating.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

metalpats said:


> as a canadian, i say thank you, we don't use those plastic box, and are often laugh at for our use of metal gangable box


People will make fun of what is they don't understand or is superior, which usually comes in a pair.


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*120 Volts Standardisation*



meadow said:


> Thank you! I guess I should have worded it better regarding motors. This is what I had in mind:
> 
> 230 tension phases triangle, 400 tension phases etoile:
> 
> ...


*
Hello. *

*All is fine...*

*I have read the post # 6 on Mike Holt forum, thank you for the link, this seems very intersting, but, apologize me, I need some technical precisions because technical language different can lead to mistakes. So I want to be sure.*

*Years ago I did propose a distribution system that should be employed in the US and through out. From crunching the numbers I came to this as the most optimal considering all perspectives:*

*A. For residential and light commercial: 240Y/139 *
*
All loads are connected phase to phase. Standard utilization equipment is 240 volts 60 hertz. Small to medium (1HP-60HP) 3 phase Motors are 6 lead connected in delta. Single phase customers can also be fed from a 240 volt center tap transformer need be. The advantage of both these system is that voltages are always below 150 volts to ground nominal making them far safer for both users and amateur DIYs. No neutral means no mix up between grounded and grounding conductors, no over voltage either from one getting broken either. *

*Could you specify if you please "Solid grounded XO" "4 wire (H-H-H-G) no neutral" *

*In addition since we are in this notions, I have a question for you, if you want. *

*Have you in USA the notion of "indirect contacts" and "direct contacts" for the protective of persons ? *(It's the basis notions of French protective for persons)

*All french standards (for the person protectives) come from this notion, and I think that is a good tool to understand different approaches and more...*:thumbsup:

*Best regards,*

*FICC -*


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *
> Hello. *
> 
> *All is fine...*
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*



Could you specify if you please "Solid grounded XO" "4 wire (H-H-H-G) no neutral" 

Click to expand...

*H-H-H-G means: Hot wire, Hot wire, Hot wire, ground (protective earth) 

phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, protective earth. *3x240 sans neutre*.

3 active phase wires (brown, black, grey) and one green/yellow protective earth wire. Neutral (zero) not present. 


Let me know if adequate. 

Sorry about the pictures in the last post, they are blurry. Click on picture to see larger size.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*



Have you in USA the notion of "indirect contacts" and "direct contacts" for the protective of persons ? (It's the basis notions of French protective for persons)

All french standards (for the person protectives) come from this notion, and I think that is a good tool to understand different approaches and more...:thumbsup:

Best regards,

FICC -

Click to expand...

* To my knowledge USA has no direct and indirect contact, unless this means something we call different.

Where electrical outlets (sockets) are in kitchens, bathrooms, exterior locations, ect ect 5ma RCD is required for anything that plugs in.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

My apologies, In case you are wondering what a "pad mount transformer" is:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pad...&sa=X&ei=1h7nVLf8C4eeNouahIAB&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Meadow

those dual voltage motors you mentioned ....you would normally use the 230v delta connection when connected to a VFD which has a single phase supply ,but 3 phase out....

Frank


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Frank Mc said:


> Hi Meadow
> 
> those dual voltage motors you mentioned ....you would normally use the 230v delta connection when connected to a VFD which has a single phase supply ,but 3 phase out....
> 
> Frank


 
Good to know 

Here in America we have 208-230/460 volt motors where the windings can be reconfigured for different voltages. 

My understanding is that America was mostly delta for industrial with voltages being multiples of 120. 120/240 for homes while industrial was 240, 480 and 600 volts ungrounded delta. 

Latter things changed and voltages like 277 and 208 came about with the conversion of systems to wye grounded. 

Most buildings today either have 120/240, 120/208 and 277/480 so dual voltage motors come in handy.


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Increase the voltage*



meadow said:


> My apologies, In case you are wondering what a "pad mount transformer" is:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=pad...&sa=X&ei=1h7nVLf8C4eeNouahIAB&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


*I have understand, sorry for the delay, and it’s fine :thumbsup:*

*For the notion of indirect and directs contacts, it’s just a classification (CEI classification in my memory)*

*Electrical chocs:*

Electric shock: Physiological effect resulting from the current flow through the human body. Mainly affects the respiratory functions and sometimes causes severe burns. Gravity is a function of the current, its passage of time and the path through the body. CIS distinguished zones Current / Time by product effect. IEC 479-1 specifies the limits to be observed. Example: 500ms item 100 mA corresponds to a probability of
fibrillation of 0.14% 

It's considered that if a un current of more 30 ma who pass in a part of a man, this man is in danger if the current is not cut off in a short delay.

CEI distinguished zones Current / Time by product effect and states to respect the limits

*1/-Indirect contacts:*

When a men touch an appliance where the is a insulation fault ( washing machine, refrigerator, motor, or others).

*2/-Direct contact :* 

When a men touch directly an active part of an electrical installation.

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/contactsdirects-indirects.png

And in the different neutral ground schematics (TT, IT, etc...) electrical protections against electrical choc must be according with these basis.

*TT :* 

Electrical protection against indirect contacts = Main beaker with differential device.
0.5 A ( for homes) .
0.3 A ( for receiving public buildings ) = *To prevent also fire risk !*

Here images of an electrical panel I've done it a few years ago for an auto repair shop, all the protections are *0.3 Amp. or 0.03 Amp*. The Main Breaker (which is outside) is a *0.5 Amp. delayed for selectivity.*

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/garage-1-.png

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/garage-2-.png

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/garage-3-.png

Electrical protections against direct contacts = strict rules for isulation, often "classe II" (double isulation), isolating transformers and....Differential devices 0.03 Amp.

We have not outlet with 5 differential device milliamperes. Only 0.03 A at the panel, for outlet circuits and it’s OK.

_(Except__ to make a direct and simultaneous contact between the phase and neutral, in specific conditions (no chance, really) it is almost impossible to electrocute with these devices)._

Your idea to increase the voltage is very interesting! 

If I talk about these notions it is that I believe that a higher voltage leads to a more reliable protection (trip time). But I have no time to check…

What do you think about ? I'm apologize if I have made mistakes wiht the translation:blink: 

*Best regards *

*FICC-*


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> H-H-H-G means: Hot wire, Hot wire, Hot wire, ground (protective earth)
> 
> phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, protective earth. *3x240 sans neutre*.
> 
> ...


*Thank you !   *

*Best regards,*

*FICC-
*


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *I have understand, sorry for the delay, and it’s fine :thumbsup:*
> 
> *For the notion of indirect and directs contacts, it’s just a classification (CEI classification in my memory)*
> 
> ...


 
That's a huge wealth of data! Good translation 

So am I correct to assume that disconnect times a governed by the voltage to ground? Or the voltage rise to remote earth while the fault is happening? 


My understanding is that if the voltage is say 230 volts, code requires it disconnected in 5 cycles? In order to accomplish this earth fault loop impedance comes into play were a short circuit at the furthest end of the circuit must produce a current over the magnetic trip rating of the breaker? 

Earth fault loop impedance is a function of Ze & Zs? Ze is the impedance between the panel and utility transformer while Zs is impedance between the consumer unit and last point of a circuit? Thus both must produce a current over a breaker's magnetic trip rating? 


http://www.ee.co.za/article/earth-l...ective-short-circuit-psc-testing-methods.html


If current is below a breaker's magnetic trip rating the following must occur:

1. Implementation of RCD (earth fault loop impedance of a TT network will force this, mandatory)

2. Lowering the magnetic trip rating

3. Increasing the protective earth conductor in size

4. Equal potential bonding around the metal object like motor.

These are derived of course by the voltage a person will see between different points during a fault. The theory is the higher the voltage the faster the disconnect time?

30ma is interesting because here in the states its set at 5ma. 


................................................................................................


This question is very important to me:

Do European RCDs have electronics in them?


.................................................................................................


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> Here images of an electrical panel I've done it a few years ago for an auto repair shop, all the protections are *0.3 Amp. or 0.03 Amp*. The Main Breaker (which is outside) is a *0.5 Amp. delayed for selectivity.*
> 
> http://img.myzupics.com/ac/garage-1-.png
> 
> ...


 

Now, this is a DIN rail panel? And the buss bar is composed of wire jumpers from breaker to breaker? 

I find this rather interesting. The neutral (zero) is switched at all breaker points. 

Is this because:

1. The neutral can fail (break) and be back fed from other circuits if the breaker is only switching the hot like in the US?

2. In a TT system the neutral is not connected to the earthing system within the structure so the neutral may above potential within the structure in relation to pipes and other objects within the building? This comes from the voltage drop between the panel and transformer which Id imagine may be up to 12 volts under normal operation?

................................................................................................


In that regards TT has an advantage. Should the neutral break, it will not energize the grounding system within the building which create both fire and shock hazard, especially where something has been left unbounded or cant be like a concrete floor slab or Gas pipe. Here in the US we are not required to bond gas pipes unless unlike the UK. 

My understanding is that TT and TN-S is mandatory for caravans for this exact reason as the skin may become like during neutral break. 


................................................................................................


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

....


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Part 1. 


I went back to re-read an old article. Cyril, you are correct one again 





> Consequently, future evolution should favour earthing systems generating fault currents which do not exceed a few dozen amps. TT earthing systems should therefore be increasingly used.​


​ http://www2.schneider-electric.com/documents/technical-publications/en/shared/electrical-engineering/dependability-availability-safety/low-voltage-minus-1kv/ect173.pdf​ I think this statement requires further investigation. With the correct implementation such a system is indeed safer. I now know why France choose this over TN. Further, TT has the advantages that TN-S bring like no EMFs; stray voltage; or energized grounding systems under a broken PEN without power companies having to pay for a 5th protective earth (grounding/EGC) conductor. (In fact in the US power companies abusively use TN-C because it saves money over having to use TN-S) TT naturally limits current during fault reducing the hazard, a big plus. ​ In the US a low TT fault current may not be so easy to achieve in some places. Often metal water lines continue under the street connecting all homes together and travel for miles in contact with the earth, TELCO and cable lines are also bonded and grounded frequently interconnecting structures as well as gas lines. The result is multiple low Z paths back to the transformer. So a fault may be hundreds of amperes in a city or urban area instead of a few amps. ​ I wonder if France requires the main protective earth bar to be isolated from TELCO (phone) and cable TV lines to limit low current paths? Or it doesn't matter? Are water lines plastic? What if the home has a gas line?​ Personally, the easiest way around this is a resistance earthed neutral system. Such a system would limit fault current regardless of inadvertent low Z paths between structures and the transformer neutral bushing (X0). ​ Such a system would behave like a TT in terms of fault current levels. However, since we don't want such a system to behave like an IT in residential or commercial (having a ground fault remain standing), we would have branch RCDs in addition to a main RCD. RCDs would prevent the system from becoming a TN, so any fault would be cleared at a very low current value. Having the system remain fault free would keep its intended function. ​ Such a system would be the easiest to implement in 3x230 pas neutre, but in theory could be used on all systems, even where the N is drawn out to the load such as 230/400.​ Here is an example of a high resistance earthed system. As seen, the fault current is minimal:






​ Of note, selecting the correct ohm value for the resistor is essential. Sizing the resistor so that it allows at least 20% more current over than the total capacitive reactance to ground of any phase would prevent severe over voltages if the fault was intermittent or arcing. A resistor passing 2 to 5 amps should be sufficient for most systems. Where a transformer feeds many homes or commercial 6 to 35 amps may be needed, again depending on the amount of system reactive current to ground. In any case the goal is to limit fault current to amperes (instead of hundreds or thousands of amperes) and clear it via RCD. ​ Having a bond wire (protective earth wire) between all the structures would be a good idea IMO, as it add another layer of safety. ​


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Part 2:

It is important to note a major difference (of course, this is if I am correct) in RCDs between the US and Europe. US RCDs have electronics which can fail. If TT was implemented in the US it may be a disaster since electronics can fail, much like an AFCI can during a surge. Thus, if the electronics failed, it would go unnoticed. Having a back up main RCD would help, but it this was failure via surge, it to will also have failed. As a result a fault years down the road would occur without being cleared creating both fire and shock/electrocution hazards.​ However, my understanding is the European RCDs have no electronics? They work much like a mechanical watt-hour meter, ie current flow translates to mechanical movement? ​ If so, this really translates into a device unlikely to fail from an overvoltage or natural occurrences like lightning. In that case TT earthing or high resistance grounded neutral systems begin to look very attractive as the device designed to clear a fault is not likely to fail. as is an American RCD or AFCI.​ All this aside, a none electronic RCD will guarantee fire protection better than an electronic AFCI... again, because its not likely to fail. ​ There is an irony. UL is now implementing self testing because electronics can fail without notice:​ http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/self-test-gfcis-90953/​ As you can see, the wheel is being reinvented all over again when a much simper solution exists. ​ If home panels in the US took an approach with sub main non electronic RCDs protecting say 6 circuits each, the cost would be lower than AFCIs giving the same results with more reliability. ​ An American RCD, notice the electronics:​ http://beta-a2.com/GFCI_PHOTOS/PICT2593A.jpg​ http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachments/f19/16238d1195796008-installing-gfci-garage-no-ground-gfci.jpg​ http://www.diychatroom.com/attachments/f18/6088d1226890754-energy-use-gfcis-afcis-wh-surge-gfci_pcboard_sm.jpg​ http://ecmweb.com/site-files/ecmweb.com/files/archive/ecmweb.com/mag/903ecmFORENpic2.jpg​ http://www.kf5idh.com/PC/GFCI-4-Web-Large.jpg​ https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACbWaTwIAbxjoIjhnRRGJ_1g GVHmHtNS3Fmf11FDDrRI3IZ_1hD8FqGF5g_1A4QHwWXgTroUku jijpVIR6Y7VAw119auEyoSCWdFEYn-AZUeEcMf180_1hFd8KhIJYe01LcWZ_1XURdm3xr_1TdCrYqEgk UMOtEjchn-BEqmWp_1AVmioSoSCUPwWoYXmD8DEQLZ8xdAd7VMKhIJhAfBZe BOuhQRc-14VK6Eh34qEgmS6OKOlUhHphFBpuaAGHOfmSoSCTtUDDXX1q4T EdhHcA8GVXei&q=gfci%20internal%20circuit&ei=IRjqVP uPCIGGNuqlgLAC&ved=0CAkQ9C8wAA#tbm=isch&q=gfci+cir cuit+board&imgdii=_​


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

OK, Thanks 480! The you tube video works now


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

For sake of visual comparatives.....>


Residual-current device






























~CS~


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's a huge wealth of data! Good translation
> 
> So am I correct to assume that disconnect times a governed by the voltage to ground? Or the voltage rise to remote earth while the fault is happening?
> 
> ...


*Hello and thank you!* 

I'm currently busy with the GCI Technology. So sorry if I do not answer today. I need to make good translations, etc...

*For the question about RCDs,* as said as a precedent post, I am not concerned about this point recently. I dont want affirm wrong things. I need to check, I will try to have a reliable response soon as possible..

*At last news, the principle of these devices ( detection of the leak) in France is electromecanic, no electronic.* ( like mechanical watt-hour meter). 

http://couleur-science.eu/?d=2014/04/06/22/12/40-comment-fonctionne-un-disjoncteur-differentiel

*Always in my memory, there had blockages (France) for the adoption of electronics RCDs, because in a particular rare case *(I'm apologize, I dont remember more precisely) there was a possibility that it will not work as well as possible, if i had well understand. But I cannot certify...

*I know that there is electronics watt-hour meter now…* *But IMO for a safety device (with CEM problems and others) nothing can be remplace the electromecanic systeme.* Except connections problems, there are indestructibles. When I talked about Main breaker with differential device, some says "It's no good, because may be the entire current must cut, ect..." *A main breaker with electromecanical differential device NEVER cuts the current for nothing* :nowe use this devices since over 50 years) except of big storms (X tripping possible) with surges for example *but surge protector do the same.*

*If a Main Breaker with differential device trips, there is really a problem, and thank you to the device to cut off the current: *

*Maybe he saved a life or prevented fire.*

*We can compare with electromecanical current watt-hour meter...never broken down, it's the same principle! 

If I can help,

Thank you very much,

Best regards,

FICC-*


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

I know nothing about these except what's on the Amazon product page, but there are receptacles that cut power if they overheat.

http://www.amazon.com/ELECTRIX-RTC-15-W-THERMAL-CUT-OFF-RECEPTACLE/dp/B00IXZ32FY


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > *Hello and thank you!*
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> For sake of visual comparatives.....>
> 
> Residual-current device
> 
> ~CS~


These to what a GFCI and AFCI do, notice the nail being driven into the wall trips the RCD in addition to providing electrocution protection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfDOAfBS3HE








Complementing the above:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sho...&sa=X&ei=axHrVMOCH5WTsQTLkoBI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you Meadow :thumbsup:

At the risk of appearing a luddite, less intricate devices _last_ longer.

Ergo, safety in the _broader_ scope, being addressed more uniformly.

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Thank you Meadow :thumbsup:
> 
> At the risk of appearing a luddite, less intricate devices _last_ longer.
> 
> ...



Not sounding luddite. You are 100% correct as usual

Even the most advanced technology hold to this rule: *KISS *Keep It Simple Stupid. All practical engineers are taught the key to true art is mathematical elegance. Which often translates to nothing more that accomplishing your intended goal with the fewest parts. 

So in that regard, a toroidal coil with a solenoid accomplishes GFCI and AFCI function with no nuisance tripping or failure.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Reliable and indestructibles*



meadow said:


> > *No need to worry.  I am satisfied, Id rather you work on GCI technology. *
> >
> >
> > *My apologies, curiosity had a hold of me. To me this is so new, that I am like a kid before Christmas wondering what is wrapped underneath the presents. Temptation makes me try to find out :jester:*
> ...


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Never trip for nothing:
> *


I wish we could say that about these>>>>(Siemens afci shown) 











They say right in the package to _'remove before megger' _ ....

which leads me to believe most of them are subject to mother natures wrath

which, as we are learning in this thread (thanks) given our grounding system's AIC (punch) can't be good for it's longevity


~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> These to what a GFCI and AFCI do, notice the nail being driven into the wall trips the RCD in addition to providing electrocution protection:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfDOAfBS3HE
> 
> ...


*Hello ! *

*I just saw the video after posting. Well Done! What more everything is exposed.*

*Except that the RCD does not completely protect Glowing connections, far from it. Sometimes with luck, it can work *(This is the improvement about GFCI fonction was talking J.Engel in its publication)* and I tested there 20 years... 

But if the RCD protecting the glowing connections, there would be more electrical fire here!

The laws of physics are the same, do different things they are shown on both sides? Or I have not understand, cause translations...

Very nice post! 

Best regards,

FICC-

*


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> I know nothing about these except what's on the Amazon product page, but there are receptacles that cut power if they overheat.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/ELECTRIX-RTC-15-W-THERMAL-CUT-OFF-RECEPTACLE/dp/B00IXZ32FY


*Hello *

*It's certainly a very good product. :thumbsup:*

*For to protect virtually all connections for a very low cost and without extra work or extra wire, IMO a parallel wiring is mandatory.*

*Best regards,*

*FICC- *


----------



## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello *
> 
> *It's certainly a very good product. :thumbsup:*
> 
> ...


what do you mean by parallel wiring ? individual run ?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Wiring*



metalpats said:


> what do you mean by parallel wiring ? individual run ?


Hello metalplast 

I apologize if my english is not perfect. 

For the technology who is in my mind it's no necessary to have input terminal and output terminal, like there is in a thermostat (serial wiring). You can see at the electrical french connection or the real truth about afcis Part III US -11'32 the example for a connector (parallel wiring): 6 wires (2 PE wires, 2 Phase wires, 2 neutral wires) and only 3 terminals, and the technology works. In addition the technology had a very very small size. So it can be placed in almost all electrical equipments. :whistling2:

I hope I have answered your question,

Berst regards,

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's a huge wealth of data! Good translation
> 
> So am I correct to assume that disconnect times a governed by the voltage to ground? Or the voltage rise to remote earth while the fault is happening?
> 
> ...


Hello 

*That's a huge wealth of data! Good translation *

*So am I correct to assume that disconnect times a governed by the voltage to ground? Or the voltage rise to remote earth while the fault is happening?* 

*Thant you very much for all your explanations Meadow, I really appreciate, thank you again.*

*In fact for CEI it's relative to the contact tension (Uc). *
*More Uc is, more trip must be quick.*

For alternativ current :
Uc < 50 V = 5'
Uc = 50 V = 5'
Uc = 75 V = 0.6'
Uc = 90 V = 0.45'
Uc = 120 V = 0.34'
Uc = 150 V = 0.27'
Uc = 220 V = 0.17'
Uc = 280 V = 0.12'
Uc = 350 V = 0.08'
Uc = 500 V = 0.04'

*But it's not the mind of my question, **And I'm sorry for this incomprehension.*

*In fact, I had meetings with US engineers, and I cannot give names* (even under torture :no. *One time, we speak about our electrical systeme with an important R&D engineer* ( and he knowed the French system ) *and he said "you have chance because with your voltage it's easy to make breakers more reliable* ( trip). *In my memory it was question of case of short –circuit at the end of long wire… I have not other information, or no idea and I have no time to check, but it's seems not to be stupid.:whistling2:*

*Maybe this track will be good to explore for your studies ? :detective:*

*It was the meaning of my reflection.*

*Thank you again.*

*Best regards*

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > Hello
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Ok, back op topic for me! 


I have a question that is screaming at me: What is the voltage drop across a glowing connection? 

Can voltage drop across a splice catch a glowing connection? 


Am I correct to assume a device that measures voltage drop across a glowing connection may be unreliable or not detect it because the voltage drop is so small?


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Electromecanicals*



meadow said:


> That's a huge wealth of data! Good translation
> 
> So am I correct to assume that disconnect times a governed by the voltage to ground? Or the voltage rise to remote earth while the fault is happening?
> 
> ...



Hello 

*I confirm, all differentials devices are still electromecanic in France :*

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/interdiffleg.jpg

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/disjdiff.jpg

*Best regards,*

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*120 vs 230 volts GFCI; RCD; direct & indirect contact*

This is interesting. No idea how accurate, but its food for thought.:thumbsup: Perhaps if we decreased the maximum trip time for 30ma RCDs, from 300ms to 40ms we could get the same result? In any case 30ma with a 300ms trip time would still be satisfactory for all in wall wiring, with 5ma where needed at sockets. 

What is the usual disconnect time of France RCDs for direct contact sockets like exterior use? 


{Of note, I only question the accuracy because 2 phase is not a correct term for 120/240, which is really called "split phase" having 180 degrees in phase shift. True 2 phase has 90* in phase shift and considered functionally obsolete. Also, in US 120/240 residential, the earthing system is TN-C-S, not TN-S, unless describing a source within a building like a 480 volt to 120/240 step down like in many commercial buildings where TN-S is code mandated (which they probably are referring to because TN-S is indeed safer).} 


http://www2.schneider-electric.com/...s-monitoring/low-voltage-minus-1kv/ect114.pdf




> In the United States, certain circuits supplying
> socket-outlets and not equipped with a PE
> conductor are protected by a GFCI (ground-fault
> circuit interrupter) which is a residual-current
> ...


The the above bold added by me for emphasis, perhaps this could be the reason why the NEC has no disconnect time requirements under a fault? 

In addition to restrictions on circuits over 150 volts to ground? Such as voltage restrictions in dwellings, 277 volt equipment/circuits and changes in grounding/bonding on circuits over 150 volts to ground, ie bond bushings on conduits landed in concentric knock outs, changing EGC requirements for equipment, ect ect? 

Part of those restrictions are to limit voltages where the probability of none qualified personal increase such as a dwelling, but part of them may accompany direct vs indirect contact and fault clearing. This of course is only a guess, as I have no evidence showing reasoning of why code making panels adopted those rules. 


I do not expect an answer for these question as the are NEC based, just me thinking aloud.  


In such a case, when a fault does occur, the voltage rise to earth would be about 60 volts, which is not as dangerous as 115 volts to ground. So in theory if a fault took 2 seconds to clear in a 120 volt appliance the hazard would not be as great as with a 230 volt appliance, so disconnect times would be less of a concern for the NEC. 

It also must be noted that NEC requires full size grounds in smaller 15, 20 and 30amp circuits with voltage drop limiting the practical length of any 120 volt circuit. A full size EGC further reduce the amount of voltage rise to earth on a metal frame while short runs increase fault current that may reach magnetic trip. Also, in the NEC, if we increase the size of the current carrying conductors (voltage drop) we must also increase the EGCs size. 

3 factors (voltage, EGC size, circuit length) in essence take over or inadvertently fulfill disconnect times... though not fully... or guaranteed...

That does not mean disconnect times not be considered as a beneficial additional to the NEC. Disconnect times under a fault not only increase people safety in all conditions, but concomitant to fire safety. 


To me, it seems that many IEC safety requirements are the result of the increased voltage to ground and its resulting side effects (increased fire and electrocution risk) Which in turn created stricter standards to combat both. 

A good example is nearly all exposed live parts in new switchboards and load centers are insulated via plastic bareirs with small ports only for test probes where 120/208 panel boards have exposed bus bars at finger's reach. More dangerous yes, but less of a concern since direct contact on a dry floor is less dangerous than 230 volts. 

Ive heard, but cant confirm, that before RCDs electrocution and injury was greater in 220 volt countries than in North America? 

Closing off you are more likely to dodge a bullet at 120 than 230, but an irony has occurred exactly because of that. We assume the risk to be less, where that thinking has backfired opening more doors to risk, in particular fire.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Just adding this for any international readers. In English, our NEC:

2011 NEC:

http://www.belmont-ma.gov/sites/belmontma/files/file/file/national_electrical_code_2011.pdf

2014 NEC:

https://ia700505.us.archive.org/35/items/nfpa.nec.2014/nfpa.nec.2014.pdf


Direct vs indirect contact from Schneider IEC PDF:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Now, this is a DIN rail panel? And the buss bar is composed of wire jumpers from breaker to breaker?


*Hello!*  

*Yes a DIN Rail, and wire jumpers from General differential breaker of the panel > wires 3 phases + neutral > to different block Terminals

From block Terminal > to circuits breakers
*


meadow said:


> I find this rather interesting. The neutral (zero) is switched at all breaker points.


*Yes, no more Neutral Bus (since 80's), and the neutral bus is swiched breaker all points.
*
*Breakers make protection of phase and haves a switch for neutral. If the breaker trip, phase an neutral are cut off.
*


meadow said:


> Is this because:
> 
> 1. The neutral can fail (break) and be back fed from other circuits if the breaker is only switching the hot like in the US?
> 
> 2. In a TT system the neutral is not connected to the earthing system within the structure so the neutral may above potential within the structure in relation to pipes and other objects within the building? This comes from the voltage drop between the panel and transformer which Id imagine may be up to 12 volts under normal operation?


*I believe that is was done to increase safety for repairs. The full circuit is isolated of others and cut off. And yes in TT all PE and structure are connected to a PE BUS> independent ground < 50 Ohms.
*


meadow said:


> In that regards TT has an advantage. Should the neutral break, it will not energize the grounding system within the building which create both fire and shock hazard, especially where something has been left unbounded or cant be like a concrete floor slab or Gas pipe. Here in the US we are not required to bond gas pipes unless unlike the UK.


*Yes. *

*About Neutral, the Main danger *(for us )* is that the loose of Neutral *(before circuit breakers in a block terminal for example)* in a neutral patterns 400 V + with neutral phases divided in circuits 220 V, *(as is the case here for many circuits) : 

*The circuits concerned with what is connected with these circuits can be found fed 400V *.:furious:

*Therefore neutral in these cases, we look it 2 times ...:detective: even 3...:thumbdown:...or 4!*

*Thank you for your interest,*

*Best regards,*

*FICC-*


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

meadow said:


> Ok, back op topic for me!
> 
> 
> I have a question that is screaming at me: What is the voltage drop across a glowing connection?
> ...


There are some numbers on this in the 1977 NIST study. Let's see if pasting from a PDF works:
TABLE 2. TYPICAL GLOWING CONNECTIONS 


Current (Amps)  20 15 10 
5 
O.R 

 Voltage Drops (Millivolts)  1000 - 2000 1200 - 2400 1500 - 3000 2000 - 4000 4000 - 7000 

 Power Dissipated   (Hilliwatts)  20,000 - 40,000 18,000 - 36,000 15,000 - 30,000 10,000 - 20,000 
3,000 - 5,000 




Well, that was horrible. Bottom line, about the same voltage range as household batteries. (Ref: NBSIR 77-608341).


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Ok, back op topic for me!
> 
> 
> I have a question that is screaming at me: What is the voltage drop across a glowing connection?
> ...


*Hello Meadow *

*I explored in this way *(1990-2000's). *After with JP Denonain *(2001-2004).* Again *(2013)* and others more specifics with progress of electronical material. We always blocked. It's long to fully explain and it's public forum. IMO for a lot of reasons, for home electrical circuits, even with a technical "tour de force" it could be as simple, and reliable :wallbash:as electronical device who want detect serial ...:whistling2:*

*If I can help, *

*Best regards,*

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> > *Hello!*
> >
> > *Yes a DIN Rail, and wire jumpers from General differential breaker of the panel > wires 3 phases + neutral > to different block Terminals
> >
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> There are some numbers on this in the 1977 NIST study. Let's see if pasting from a PDF works:
> TABLE 2. TYPICAL GLOWING CONNECTIONS
> 
> 
> ...





Thanks! 

Perhaps what a house hold battery produces, but enough to at least indicate something is going on. Not necessarily a lost cause.








French ICC said:


> *Hello Meadow *
> 
> *I explored in this way *(1990-2000's). *After with JP Denonain *(2001-2004).* Again *(2013)* and others more specifics with progress of electronical material. We always blocked. It's long to fully explain and it's public forum. IMO for a lot of reasons, for home electrical circuits, even with a technical "tour de force" it could be as simple, and reliable :wallbash:as electronical device who want detect serial ...:whistling2:*
> 
> ...



It is possible to detect a glowing connection via voltage drop across a splice (at least that is what conclusion I reach). In theory one could have a breaker with electronics that measure neutral and hot voltage to ground and then have a device all the way at the last point in the circuit that does the same. The breaker and device would communicate to each other looking for an imbalance. A voltage drop on either the hot or neutral that is not attributed from outside the branch circuit being monitored, especially under heavy load (like 12 amps) would indicate a problem. 

This has been done to some degree in utilities, especially newer protective schemes involving distribution network automation. If VTs (voltage potential transformers) attached to line bays between substations, or VTs in SCADA reclosers/electronic automatic switches (where relcosers/ auto switches are in series one after another or meshed) detect a voltage imbalance (drop) not attributed to line impedance variants across phases and unbalanced loads between any 2 points/nodes in a circuit that in turn would indicate a failing splice or a broken conductor lying on the ground. Both hazards that fall of potential between points would pic up.


However, applying fall of potential comparison to 600 volt and under building wiring is doable but I have my concerns. 

1. Switch legs or loops equate to asymmetrical impedance on a circuit where voltage drop will be greater across the hot than the neutral creating a challenge since it would cause nuisance tripping. These are common in lighting circuits.

2. Cost would be significantly more than AFCIs in that not only does the breaker need electronics, but so does a device at the end of the circuit. Id imagine these two devices would need to talk to each other for somehow voltage comparison which would further necessitate both devices having separate electronic circuits just for data exchange further increasing cost alone, complexity and dependability. 

3. Something like this is complex. The device can not nuisance trip. Voltage comparison may be easy (assuming it doesn't need logic to adjust itself to switch legs) however communication between devices opens the door to nuisance tripping from interference. Even if communications took place via the 3 conductors involved, the risk is still in place since interference can be found within wiring itself (perhaps even more than air).

4. Surge tolerance/ dependability. Electronics are subject to failure (unreliable). If this device is being implemented in a cost friendly manner (cost friendly alone would be called obscene by home builders) it is unlikely these devices will have the best tolerance to damaging over voltages and spikes. 50 years from when they are most needed they might not even work. Testing may help, but who will test billions of circuits? 

Considering IEC RCDs with only a coil and solenoid doing so much with fire safety makes this look very unpromising, even impractical for detecting a glowing connection.

5. More research will need to be done to accurately concluded what is the lowest level of voltage drop that a splice can have in regards to a connection capable of combustion. If that value comes up to be very low, say a 1/2 volt, then all the more complex an electronic device will have to be with all the more chance of nuisance tripping because values deemed dangerous are so narrow. A switch leg will for example cause well over 1/2 a volt of imbalance. 

6. Treeing of circuits, or limited design. Circuits branching out (most do) will need devices at each end point, so that will either mean more devices (and all hurdles around that) or designing circuits in a radial loop. Further, if devices are pigtailed, the protection ends after the pigtail.

In a nut shell detecting voltage drop between nodes is doable, but not an easy one, not a reliable one, and definitely not cost effective. Im sure more is into this to start with.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks! That makes sense now!  *
> ...


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

What's easier to detect, a 7-volt voltage drop, or a 1500 degree Fahrenheit heat source in a cramped box? 

Why not do a thermocouple and relay, or, if the dissimilar metals problem could be overcome, a simple low melting point alloy link somewhere? "Low" would mean high enough to deal with air conditioner current draws on hot days, but low enough to melt and de-energize the device before anything ignites, maybe even before the insulation hits its temperature rating. 

Or a bimetal strip.

Just brainstorming here. A real EE would have better ideas. Everything I mentioned has at least one serious drawback.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Perhaps what a house hold battery produces, but enough to at least indicate something is going on. Not necessarily a lost cause.
> 
> ...


*Yes Meadow.:thumbsup:

I cannot speak about our recherches in a public forum. But I agree with you.  It's exactly the mind of the "blockages" that I indicated given the goal to have a protection:

-Without electronic *(and without all problem linked with, CEM, ect...)
*-Reliable *(for at least 35 years and more)* 
-Very low cost in the goal of all people can to buy security.*
*-Easy to understand for electricians, and easy to implant :
-Without extra work or extra wire *(installation) 
*-Without any maintenance or tests *(for homes it's better)* 
-Without X tripping possible and with very quick and simple repairs after tripping.
An compatible with all protections, AFCIs, GFCIs, or even simple breakers. :whistling2:

If I can help

Thank you very much Meadow for your interest :thumbup:

Best regards,

FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > *Thank you for these précisions *
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Yes Meadow.:thumbsup:
> 
> I cannot speak about our recherches in a public forum. But I agree with you.  It's exactly the mind of the "blockages" that I indicated given the goal to have a protection:
> 
> ...


Thanks! Very interesting, fascinated by this


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> What's easier to detect, a 7-volt voltage drop, or a 1500 degree Fahrenheit heat source in a cramped box?
> 
> Why not do a thermocouple and relay, or, if the dissimilar metals problem could be overcome, a simple low melting point alloy link somewhere? "Low" would mean high enough to deal with air conditioner current draws on hot days, but low enough to melt and de-energize the device before anything ignites, maybe even before the insulation hits its temperature rating.
> 
> ...


*Hello Almost always lurkin* 

Sorry for my english, and I am a new member here, I want offense nobody, so apologize me if I make mistakes. 

I want to thank you to your interest about glowing connection. 

In my knowledge, there is many phenomenoms who happens when a hot spot born and increases in a connection. For example there are incredible dissipations thermical phenomenoms in glowing connections through wires and others (for example few times we noted 230*F just for 1 cm between the hot spot and the thermal probe and it was a very big problem for our work). :wallbash: So IMO, it's necessary to probe on the terminal, and in a junction box, it's seems not reliable, because an other important point is that when you have a 1000 or 1200°F it's to late, the fire can be start. :devil2:

Generaly, in a glowing connection, the hot spot increases very slowly at the start, and the increase of temperature follows an exponential curve. But from about 212-240°F, start the cracking of isulation materials (colliery) and the elements favorable to ignite the fire start slowly up. So IMO, an other important point is: At what time, in this exponential curve, it's necessary to cut off current! That is the question...

*I think that glowing connection are a good topic to develop! :thumbsup:*

Thank you very much.

If I can help.

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > So if I had a 4 pole breaker 3P+N, I couldn't run brown, black, grey, blue, green/yellow and have brown feed 8 sockets, black another 8 and grey another 8 sockets while each share the same blue that goes back to 4 pole breaker?
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > Hello !
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > So no shared neutrals, even in commercial industrial?
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Meadow
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks! That makes sense now!  *
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Meadow
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > A clarification, sorry for the delay:
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that's it! In the USA this is super common. Its every where. My own home has shared neutral circuits where 4 wire cable (2P+N+PE) goes and splits into mono phase circuits. Code now requires the breakers have handle ties so manual hand disconnection will turn off all poles.
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> meadow said:
> 
> 
> > OK, thank you !
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

My apologies.

Cooking range:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ran...P4CA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=cooking+range


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*1,400 Swiss Code Violations and Defects*

Mr. French ICC, I think you will like this.  I apologize the descriptions are in German, but 1/3 of those pictures are overheating connections. 

What I find interesting is that even though this thread is littered with dangerous violations like over fused cables, bypassed RCDs, energized ground wires, and even light bulbs melting objects near by, the biggest fire hazard that stands out by far to me are poor connections as can be seen by the amount of heat damage around them. They are copious in amount to. Perhaps it is not out of step for me to say a loose connection is the most dangerous defect or code violation? At least 1.5mm2 (16 gauge) cable fused at 63 amps is not likely to see load that will cause a fire unlike a loose connection will? And unlike all other defects, a connection capable of starting a fire can appear completely normal at first? 



http://www.kontrollbuero.ch/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.htm




I left out most of the plug and socket pics, but there seemed to be many of those as well.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Part 2 of loose connections:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Part 3 of loose connections


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Part 4 of loose connections:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bonus pictures, typical IEC DIN rail terminal block and 2 old 220/380 TN-C-S services. Of course by today's standards exposed buss bars and those wiring colors for L,N,&PE would be flat out illegal.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> French ICC said:
> 
> 
> > meadow said:
> ...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> And what do you think of a differential device in the main circuit breaker? (0.03 Amp. for example if the voltage increases 230 V) IMO It will be good for security (To prevent some parallels arcs into panel, for to commence ?)
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> FICC-


[/QUOTE]

I think having 30ma protection in the system is essential. to fire and human safety. I would avoid a single main breaker as primary protection as a fault would trip it taking out the whole house.

At the very minimum I would have 2 submain, 1 for one side of the house a second for the other half of the circuits like in a newer UK consumer unit.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Mr. French ICC, I think you will like this.  I apologize the descriptions are in German, but 1/3 of those pictures are overheating connections.
> 
> What I find interesting is that even though this thread is littered with dangerous violations like over fused cables, bypassed RCDs, energized ground wires, and even light bulbs melting objects near by, the biggest fire hazard that stands out by far to me are poor connections as can be seen by the amount of heat damage around them. They are copious in amount to. Perhaps it is not out of step for me to say a loose connection is the most dangerous defect or code violation? At least 1.5mm2 (16 gauge) cable fused at 63 amps is not likely to see load that will cause a fire unlike a loose connection will?


Hello Mr. Meadow 

Thank you so much and do not apologize, it's perfect! :thumbsup: This pictures are interesting, speaks very much to me! Thank again for your interest and for your time.

Yes, IMO too, the main risk of electrical fire is gowing connection. 
In my mind the better work must be done for connections, a fault of an electrician at a connection is almost a sure fire. 

But even if the job is OK, in itself, the connections have vocation to create hot spots and fires.



meadow said:


> And unlike all other defects, a connection capable of starting a fire can appear completely normal at first?
> 
> http://www.kontrollbuero.ch/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.htm



Yes the hot spot increases slowly at first, nothing is abnormal. But if the hot spot is present in the heart of a terminal, even if it low at the start, (and at the start it is always low) by Joule Effect,and by others specific elements linked to connecttions, fatally temperature will increase in a exponential curve, until the fusion of elements, and the risk of fire is important.

And breakers, differentIal devices, GFCIs, or AFCI can detect this specific hot spots. And it IS for these logical reasons that Glowing connections are the main cause of electrical fires... 



meadow said:


> I left out most of the plug and socket pics, but there seemed to be many of those as well.


Yes there are a lot too. 

*Worst glowings connections are those that grow in the linings, ceilings, attics, basements, etc., there are not many pictures because usually ... everything has burned!
*
A topic about glowing connection woull be usefull for a good and large understanding. What do you think about ?

Sorry for my English.

If I can help, 

Thank you again 

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Mr. Meadow
> 
> Thank you so much and do not apologize, it's perfect! :thumbsup: This pictures are interesting, speaks very much to me! Thank again for your interest and for your time.
> 
> ...



This mistranslated. :wallbash: Can not turned into can. As in AFCI will detect glowing connection. That is incorrect, because it mistranslated. 

Trust me, it happens.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> > Bonus pictures, typical IEC DIN rail terminal block and 2 old 220/380 TN-C-S services.
> 
> 
> Some of that is *'Electrical Eye Candy' ** :thumbsup:
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> This mistranslated. :wallbash: Can not turned into can. As in AFCI will detect glowing connection. That is incorrect, because it mistranslated.
> 
> Trust me, it happens.


Yes, you are right!

I'm sorry Meadow, *I am confused for this error *

*And breakers, differential devices, GFCIs, or AFCIs CAN NOT detect this specific hot spots*. And it's for these logical reasons that Glowing connections are the main cause of electrical fires... 

Thank again,

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Yes, you are right!
> 
> I'm sorry Meadow, *I am confused for this error *
> 
> ...


 
Its ok , I am sure my text translates worse 

Is there a minimum amperage where a glowing connection will not take place? Can an alarm clock with only 300ma cause a glowing connection or must it be a 12 amp heater?


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Glowing connection with low Amp.*



meadow said:


> Its ok , I am sure my text translates worse
> 
> Is there a minimum amperage where a glowing connection will not take place? Can an alarm clock with only 300ma cause a glowing connection or must it be a 12 amp heater?


It's clear IMO that with a loose connection, more is Amp, more the temperature will increase quickly. :devil2:

But yes I have know of fires with only alarm clocks (Glowing connections), or with only night lights, this is was confirmed at the meetings with technical staff of insurances. JP Denonain had saw the same (he was un technical adviser for 4 insurances companie and an expert engineer), and it's always confirmed by others expert legal engineers. IMO and in concordance with our tests and others, with a low Amp. it's possible to have a dangerous hot spot. 

for example here: 

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/incendie-vitroles.png

IMO It's necessary to keep in the mind that these defaults increase very slowly at the begining. This leaves the time to degrade the insulation and to prepare the elements favorables to ignite the fire. Even with few watts this is possible with time, in month or years.Then, there is a gearing effect, and temperature increase more and more quickly. ( the primer elements of this gearing effect are well visibles on your photos). At each use, The systeme find its balance with with heat dissipations, whith a peak of heating at the heart of glowing connection. The temperature slowly craking insulation wires and other. And at each use, in the same conditions, with the same power and in the same time, the heating peak will increase more than once before, and at the end, more and more violently.:furious:

Best regards, and I apologize for my English and for mistakes.

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> Some of that is *'Electrical Eye Candy' ** :thumbsup:


I was hoping you would notice.  I rarely see anything like that. 









> Yet it is understandable once one gets used to the color scheme....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, its not easy. That is why you always need to test your wires in Europe!!


In older (first generation) installations:

Yellow= neutral

Yellow with red twirl= ground :blink:

Green, Blue, Red= Hots

..................................
Then it went to:

Yellow or blue= neutral 

Yellow with green stripes= ground

Black, white, Red= hots

...................................

Now, New IEC colors:

Blue= neutral

Green with yellow stripes= ground

Brown, Black, Grey= hots

...........................................

And the icing on the cake:

In the UK black used to be a neutral for decades with blue as a phase.


So with that said any particular wire color means you have just about anything. :no:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> It's clear IMO that with a loose connection, more is Amp, more the temperature will increase quickly. :devil2:
> 
> But yes I have know of fires with only alarm clocks (Glowing connections), or with only night lights, this is was confirmed at the meetings with technical staff of insurances. JP Denonain had saw the same (he was un technical adviser for 4 insurances companie and an expert engineer), and it's always confirmed by others expert legal engineers. IMO and in concordance with our tests and others, with a low Amp. it's possible to have a dangerous hot spot.
> 
> ...


I find that amazing. Who would have guessed? 

Perfect translation this time! :thumbsup:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I find that amazing. Who would have guessed?
> 
> Perfect translation this time! :thumbsup:


Thank you for the translation, I think that it remains mistakes! 

It is true that it may seem suspicious at first but electricians from all countries frequently find connections where hot spot has evolved, according to these phenomena, as seen in the photos. Here we find a lot too :devil2:

I think that it will be good to keep at mind that for equal power, with a more low voltage, a glowing connection is more dangerous ! :devil2: :devil2:

What do you think about ? 

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

http://img.myzupics.com/ac/incendie-vitroles.png

is there a way to translate this?

~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> http://img.myzupics.com/ac/incendie-vitroles.png
> 
> is there a way to translate this?
> 
> ~CS~


Hello Chiken Steve 

No way, sorry, it's a Screen copy of a online French newspaper. 

The article relate an Electrical fire with a 5 years boy well burned. The fire stated to the connection of the outlet connected to an alarm clock... In the bed room of the little boy. (maybe 0.02Amp) The fire started in the night, all the dwelling was ransacked, and all occupants 
of the résidence was evacued. I knew after a portion of the mattress had burned the child 

Best regards,

FICC -


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Chiken Steve
> 
> No way, sorry, it's a Screen copy of a online French newspaper.
> 
> ...


 
Hard to believe, but I guess a home without short circuit protection is no different than a home without something to stop a glowing connection. 


I also want to further go on record, that contrary to popular belief over fusing is unlikely to start a fire. In fact, if I saw #14 fused at 30 amps Id still worry more about a glowing connection.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Hard to believe, but I guess a home without short circuit protection is no different than a home without something to stop a glowing connection.


It's true



meadow said:


> I also want to further go on record, that contrary to popular belief over fusing is unlikely to start a fire. In fact, if I saw #14 fused at 30 amps Id still worry more about a glowing connection.


I'm sorry Meadow, I not understand the last § 

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So…bottom line is that AFCI's are the biggest scam ever.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> So…bottom line is that AFCI's are the biggest scam ever.


 
Some of the most of the most covert, elaborate, creative, deceptive, aggressive, immoral, manipulative, subversive, fraudulent, and illegal schemes were used to get AFCIs into the code.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

MTW said:


> So…bottom line is that AFCI's are the biggest scam ever.


IMO the main cause of electrical fire is Glowing connection :devil2:. 

 can not prevent glowing connection:no:

, can not prevent serial in US dwellings. :no:
_"Combination AFCIs that they will and will not do". 
_
_:whistling2:
_


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> It's true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My apologizes. A common myth is that over fusing wire like putting 14 gauge wire on a 30 amp breaker (2.5mm2 on a 32 amp breaker )will result in a fire. That is simply untrue and I can explain why.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Some of the most of the most covert, elaborate, creative, deceptive, aggressive, immoral, manipulative, subversive, fraudulent, and illegal schemes were used to get AFCIs into the code.


Hello Meadow 

This is certainely this. 
And I'm well placed to appreciate that there is problem


Best regards

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow
> 
> This is certainely this.
> And I'm well placed to appreciate that there is problem
> ...


 
Now my question: Is over loaded wiring more likely to lead to a glowing connection? 

I have a theory, that electrical fires from over fused circuits are not from the wring itself, but rather marginal connections being stressed more than they would be.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> My apologizes. A common myth is that over fusing wire like putting 14 gauge wire on a 30 amp breaker (2.5mm2 on a 32 amp breaker )will result in a fire. That is simply untrue and I can explain why.



Do not apologise Meadow, the fault is my bad english.

If I well understand you say that it's possible to connect a 14 gauge wire on a 32 Amp, without fire. Why not , if it's the mind of the problem, my first question is what is the length of the wire ? 

Thank you!


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Do not apologise Meadow, the fault is my bad english.
> 
> If I well understand you say that it's possible to connect a 14 gauge wire on a 32 Amp, without fire. Why not , if it's the mind of the problem, my first question is what is the length of the wire ?
> 
> Thank you!


It can be done, no problem. I will say 200 feet from panel to last socket, in wall fused at 32 amps.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> It can be done, no problem. I will say 200 feet from panel to last socket, in wall fused at 32 amps.


OK Meadow, thank you. 

I suppose that in your mind, the circuit feeds a 32 amp appliance. I never made this and I have never made calculation. It seems difficult to make with Joule effect and the resistivity linked to the heating and with the same Joule effect, (and others) but one can make a good approach...Or it's more simple? 

You think what Meadow, I'm interested ? :notworthy:

If i can learn, it's always good for me! :thumbup:

Thank you very much!

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is Schneider Electric behind the AFCI scam?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Is Schneider Electric behind the AFCI scam?


Nope, Eaton Cutler Hammer. At least in term of the CMP money under the table magic.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> OK Meadow, thank you.
> 
> I suppose that in your mind, the circuit feeds a 32 amp appliance. I never made this and I have never made calculation. It seems difficult to make with Joule effect and the resistivity linked to the heating and with the same Joule effect, (and others) but one can make a good approach...Or it's more simple?
> 
> ...


 I have a theory, that most over current fires are pure myth. Fire Fighters and many others assume that a 30amp fuse will over heat wires to the point of fire, but my theory is that is untrue. Rather, the stressed connection at outlets (primarily daisy changed back stabs) weaken to form glowing connections igniting fires where EMS and fire investigators falsely assume to be attributed to over fused wiring or pennies behind fuses.

Sounds insane right? 

I have a source that proves part of the theory. Notice the REAL (at least claimed) current capacity of #14:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Nope, Eaton Cutler Hammer. At least in term of the CMP money under the table magic.


Please, I dont offense anybody... IMO Would it be interresting to see who was behind or with  or in the same luggages ? :laughing: It's just a question...


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I said it before and I will say it again - the solution to the American problem is to require local fuse protection on every cord. If UL requires it for Christmas and other seasonal lighting, why not other cords? 

Either that, or a modern residential fuse panel - but that is not ever going to happen.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I said it before and I will say it again - the solution to the American problem is to require local fuse protection on every cord. If UL requires it for Christmas and other seasonal lighting, why not other cords?
> 
> Either that, or a modern residential fuse panel - but that is not ever going to happen.


I agree, its a practical solution over reinventing reality. 


Arcs, overcurrent fires and the rest aren't even as predominate as they make them out to be.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I have a theory, that most over current fires are pure myth. Fire Fighters and many others assume that a 30amp fuse will over heat wires to the point of fire, but my theory is that is untrue. Rather, the stressed connection at outlets (primarily daisy changed back stabs) weaken to form glowing connections igniting fires where EMS and fire investigators falsely assume to be attributed to over fused wiring or pennies behind fuses.
> 
> Sounds insane right?
> 
> ...


It's interresting, I must make a good translation to have a good opinion :blink:

But short-circuits are not the main cause of electrical fire. it is an abuse of language. In France and in part of Europe, press says "A short-circuit is responsible of this fire" that is a mistake of language, like it's said "An Arc is responsible of this fire" 

*Thank you very much for these information, it's very interresting, as always*! :thumbsup:

*Best regards,
*
FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> It's interresting, I must make a good translation to have a good opinion :blink:
> 
> But short-circuits are not the main cause of electrical fire. it is an abuse of language. In France and in part of Europe, press says "A short-circuit is responsible of this fire" that is a mistake of language, like it's said "An Arc is responsible of this fire"
> 
> ...





I agree, big mistake and very misleading! Plugging in so many appliances to the point the wire will burn is unlikely.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I have a theory, that most over current fires are pure myth. Fire Fighters and many others assume that a 30amp fuse will over heat wires to the point of fire, but my theory is that is untrue. Rather, the stressed connection at outlets (primarily daisy changed back stabs) weaken to form glowing connections igniting fires where EMS and fire investigators falsely assume to be attributed to over fused wiring or pennies behind fuses.
> 
> Sounds insane right?
> 
> ...


I knew that the cables could bear more intensity than the mandatory protections associate. But here we are far from!!!

Thank you this informations, I understand better some strange situations that I saw when troubleshooting ....:cursing:
You are right.

With an electrical installation without weak points, with circuit breakers of fuses, a "sudden" short circuit can not ignite a fire.Here when there is an electrical fire, always newpapers says "a short-circuit" is responsible of the fire....And it's an technical mistake. A joke like the "arcs"...:laughing:

The problem IMO is weak points where the favorable elements to ignite a fire can be creates. 

To summary I see 2 main situations. 

That we called with Jean Pierre "short-circuits slow" (phase-neutral) when an insulation leak happens very slowly, (generally in a device like a small transformer or other). If generally Amp. increase quickly, in certain cases, the temperature have time to create the favorable elements to ignite the fire, before intensy (Amp.) reaches the value of the Circuit breaker. Small fuses can improve safety but it's do not work always...

What do you think about this, please ?

The second main situation is, of course the connections. :devil2:

Good informations !:thumbsup:

Thank you again

Best regards,


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Why, IMO, Glowing Connections are the Main cause of electrical fires?*



meadow said:


> I agree, big mistake and very misleading! Plugging in so many appliances to the point the wire will burn is unlikely.


Hello Meadow 

I've just posted this in the topic "glowing connections" but I think that maybe of interest in this topic, so I repost. Best regards.

*Why, IMO, Glowing Connections are the Main cause of electrical fires?

*Gentleman's, 

I would like apologize by advance for my English and for the mistakes linked to a the translation and I dont want offense anyone. I just want to display a summary of the knowledge I have gained on this issue. It come from my experience, experience of colleagues, tests, papers, interview of engineers experts and experts from the courts, technical staff of insurance company's, and works, especially with JP Denonain ( CV post 151# of the topic "The differences in our electrical systems"). 

If it can help.

Here we use RCD since 60’s, with the public schema TT, for dwelling. In this schema, it's mandatory to have a RCD at the head of electrical installation (Main Breaker) and all masses are interconnected to an individual earth electrode, separated of the Neutral. But for specific cases, we use also TN-C and TN-C-S schema ( close schemas used in the USA) 

This global overview give a good comparison of these different systems. 

Indeed, an overload or a direct parallel arc between Phase and Neutral (short circuit) will be detected by a circuit breaker. A parallel arc between Phase and PE (or a mass, insulation fault) will be detected at acceptable values by an RCD or a GFCI. An parallel arc between Neutral and PE (insulation fault) will be maybe detected by a GFCI. For these defaults, without RCD or GFCI, the defaults can be detected too late, and the risk of fire is more important.


*Isolated hot spots remains undetectable.*

A common point between all this schemas (except these cases) is that it's remains impossible to detect from a panel, an isolated hot spot in an electrical installation. *The laws of physic are universals and to two side of Atlantique,* to find isolated hot spots in electrical installations, it is used thermographic infrareds. *The evidence that there is no automatic protection to detect these specific defaults: **An isolated hot spot can start and rise in a circuit, and nothing can detect him. *

*It's embarrassing if we want to prevent fires, but it’s a fact.*


*In time, all kind of events can alter the connections.*

Even well done, many factors can weaken the connections. The vibrations of the ground, the period (screws), the oxidation,electromagnetic surges following occasional short circuits with motors starting up, and small transformers being plugged in, or high frequency surges induced by network operations, or by lightning strikes to the ground or between clouds, and finally to various degradations due to aging from hostile and damp environments, and from tugging forces when the mechanical fixtures are inadequate. 


*The electrical equipment is of good quality **but* *c**onnections are intended to create hot spots. **These hot spots which can increases only in an exponential curve...and to generate Glowing connections.*

In addition, and to resume, the Global Resistance of a connection (Rg) can be written as the sum of several sub-resistances ( r1+r2+r3, etc.).

For a home connection could express it like that (to summary):

RG = r1 = Related to resistivity of materials (wires and connection device) related to temperature + r2 = Resistance related to oxidation cooper + r3 = Resistance related to oxidation brass ( for example) + R4 =Resistance related to the contact surface + etc. (depending on specific cases)

We know that all parts of this system are interdependent: If one of these sub-resistance increases, all the other sub-resistances will increase, and step by step, the temperature will rise continuously. 

Here, for example, we will say that this is R2 which initiates the process. But it can start with any other sub-resistance.

*r2* : Copper oxidizes readily in air, in time. And very few oxides can increase greatly the resistance. In addition, *we know that heat greatly enhances the oxidation of copper: *On the pictures posted by Meadow on the topic "The differences in our electrical systems" post # 248 

http://www.electriciantalk.com/attachments/f2/49361d1424996723-differences-our-electrical-systems-001sk-reihenklemme-l2.jpg

For example, we can see the characteristic oxidation of the copper as result of hot spot. The same on the pictures posted by “Chiken Steve” # 3 and 4 or other.

So, always for example, if *r2* (oxidation copper) increases a little, it will generate a small hot spot by Joule effect. The heat will be transmitted across the connection. The system finds its thermal balance with heat dissipations (copper and brass transmit heat well)</SPAN>,with a peak of heating at the heart of glowing connection and the temperature of the connection increased, *RG is increased. *

*So the resistivity of materials* *r1* will increase so (the resistivity increase with the temperature) *r2, r3* will increases = *Global Resistance (Rg) will increase again*. The Global resistance increased, the heat will increase again. The resistivity of materials will further increase…ect. 

Here an explanation of these phenomena for industrial connection but is the same principles: 

http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Catalogues/SZ_Multilam-F_(en)_hi.pdf


*These hot spots **are intended to create favorable elements to ignite fires and these fires.*

These defaults increase very slowly at the beginning. This leaves the time to degrade the insulation and to prepare the favorable elements to ignite the fire. Even with few watts this is possible with time, in month or years. The temperature slowly cracking insulation wires and other. And at each use, in the same conditions, with the same power and in the same time, the heating peak will increase more than once before. And the temperature rise will transform the PVC insulation (cracking) = This is allows the enabling environment to ignite a fire = *At this step, it's too late for safety.*


*The temperature will rise according to an exponential curve*.*The risk of fire **becomes critical.*

As the standards require that connections devices must have good resistance against temperature, ect ... there may chance that fault contact interrupt current! At high temperatures, thermal expansion will occur, and this can also lead to arcs. 

*Depending on conditions, the* *first arc can ignite the fire. The Joule effect alone can light the fire, without arc*. (for example we had made tests with more of 1150°F in glowing connections, it is enough to ignite PVC ...)

In France, since 60’s, RCD limit insulation fault to 0.5 Amp. or 0.3 Amp. *In 90’s , differential devices 30 ma (like GFCIs) had been generalized for all circuits. I have think at this time, *(like Dr. J.Engel says in his publication)* that this protection (0.03 amp) can prevent more against glowing connection.* Why not, circuits breakers works very well here, and there is RCD and differential device 30 ma for all circuits. In addition, the TT schema, with RCD and earth electrode, separated of the neutral makes very soft tripping, almost without arcs. *We have no more big arcs tripping* *here since decades*, and the faults are very well identified and mastered at very low values, for example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4 *6’59 > 6’19
*
*One can not do better*. 

In addition we use spring connectors also since 20 years. 

*But after all this the proportion of electrical fires remained virtually unchanged, (30% of home fires have an electrical origin). Reminding of at all professionals, engineers and experts, all days, what is knows since decades: *

*The real problem is not the arcs or the short circuits, but hot spots in glowing connections. *

*Because nothing can detect it.*

*And** they kill and injure people everyday.*

Thank you for your attention, 

Best regards.

---------------------
An Other document if it can help : http://www.iafss.org/publications/fss/11/45/view


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I have a theory, that most over current fires are pure myth. Fire Fighters and many others assume that a 30amp fuse will over heat wires to the point of fire, but my theory is that is untrue. Rather, the stressed connection at outlets (primarily daisy changed back stabs) weaken to form glowing connections igniting fires where EMS and fire investigators falsely assume to be attributed to over fused wiring or pennies behind fuses.
> 
> Sounds insane right?
> 
> ...


Hello Meadow 

IYO is it true that European circuit breakers would be more reliable than circuit breakers US? Or have I made an error in translation?

Best regards,

FICC-


Is it true


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow
> 
> IYO is it true that European circuit breakers would be more reliable than circuit breakers US? Or have I made an error in translation?
> 
> ...


_"Is it true"_

Sorry for this mistake ... !


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow
> 
> IYO is it true that European circuit breakers would be more reliable than circuit breakers US? Or have I made an error in translation?
> 
> ...


European breakers have lower magnetic trip. Means they are more likely to trip on a parallel arc fault. More reliable and preventing fires, yes.

I started a new thread on the over current fire myth not to Hi-jack this one:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/will-14-gauge-30-amp-burn-down-home-93201/


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> European breakers have lower magnetic trip. Means they are more likely to trip on a parallel arc fault. More reliable and preventing fires, yes.
> 
> I started a new thread on the over current fire myth not to Hi-jack this one:
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/will-14-gauge-30-amp-burn-down-home-93201/


Thank you for these informations Meadow.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Thank you for these informations Meadow.



Welcome! 

Reading your thread has got me thinking. I continually hear fire safety experts speak of over current fires, however I have come up with a theory which leads be to believe that to be a myth, or at least misunderstood. 

My hypothesis is that most most 14 gauge (2.08mm2) and 12 gauge (3.31mm2) NM-B (similar IEC twin and earth cable) has a great enough safety factor designed in (and enough heat dissipation in most cases) to the degree where it would take an extraordinary amount of appliances plugged to reach current values great enough to melt insulation let alone ignite wooden framing members. 

Thus I believe that a 30 amp fuse in place of a 15 amp is not a major fire hazard, especially in newer 90*C THHN (PVC) insulated conductors. In fact I would say where the fuse is bypassed or a circuit breaker has failed the risk would still not be great as the occupant would have to create an overload condition that is practically deliberate with an intent to start a fire. 5+ 1500 watt 120 volt space heaters are not likely on a single 15 amp circuit, even in older homes. Keep in mind at that point voltage drop will alarm the occupant.


I will further go out and say that the predominate reason why older homes have more electrical fires is not because of fewer circuits, but rather aged connections, some sub par from the day the home was built. More current will stress connections more, but it is the connections themselves, not the wire going up in flames. Experts claim AFCIs give older homes the most protection, but that is a pure lie as glowing connections produce no arcing signature. So in that regard an AFCI is useless in an older home. AFCIs provide no significant fire protection in older dwellings, same can be said for new homes. 



I believe most, if not nearly all over current fires (where the wire itself burns, insulation melts, or ignites wood) are caused by short circuits where the fuse has been bypassed or the circuit breaker has failed. A short circuit will produce hundreds of amps more than any overload can. In fact the further away from the fuse box a fault occurs, the less current the main fuse or breaker will see increasing the time it takes for the main fuse to blow or the odds of current failing to reach the main's magnetic trip. This increases the time the circuit remains energized prolonging the amount of intense heat insulation and wood member are exposed to. A fire is a very real outcome, a given. 

A short circuit with breaker bypassed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqM25h04PmI




Thus, my belief is that most fires caused by over fused circuits have nothing to do with the wire itself. The real fire risk from over fused circuits is not in where the wire passes or how it behaves, but rather connections at devices and joints. Having over fused circuits stresses the connections more, particularly back stabbed outlets and marginal splices/joints. The fuse allows more current to flow so each joint heats more. The cyclic nature of appliance load causes metal to expand and contract, especially back-stabbed outlets. 

The connections begin to become weak faster than they normally would, and because of the higher current, when the connection does become weak disintegration becomes faster. 

The end result is a glowing connection which starts a fire. I believe the risk of a glowing connection goes up where over fusing takes place, with the greatest risk coming from back stabbed outlets, worse of all being daisy chained back stabs. As you can see it would make sense why this would give rise to a myth, and it is in theory ok to assume higher fusing= more fires, but its not so much the wire. Its the connections. 

On the subject of back stab: I believe this wiring method to be a very poor connection, especially when dealing with large current carrying appliances. I believe back stabs loosed over time and result in glowing connections. 

Here are some pics,

Quickwire push-in= back stab: 

http://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/


http://www.handymanhowto.com/how-to-repair-a-shorted-electrical-outlet-part-1/



Back stabbed outlets:

https://www.google.com/search?q=bac...0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=backstabbed+receptacle

https://www.google.com/search?q=bac...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=backstabbed+outlet



Daisy chaining:

http://www.mauenvios.com/trujillo2001/DIYH/DIY_my-own-house-electrical-wiring_files/image062.jpg

https://www.google.com/search?q=dai...q=daisy+chaining+receptacles&spell=1&imgdii=_

Some overheated connections:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Zrexxer/media/fire2.jpg.html

http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Need4racin/media/outlet015.jpg.html


My belief is that fires resulting from arc faults, over currents, short circuits and current leaking to ground is only a small percentage of electrical fries. My guess is that 95% of all electrical fires are from glowing connections, many of which occur in code complaint circuits. 

I believe arc faults and over current fires are mostly a myth, misunderstood and a hyped statistic. I believe experts automatically assume electrical fires predominately stem from arc faults or over currents because myths lead them to misinterpret evidence. In turn misinterpreted evidence keeps the myth alive. A true perpetual motion machine in existence. 

Until glowing connections are addressed, I do not believe we will ever see a decrease in electrical fires. On the contrary, as electrical systems age glowing connections will increase.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I just want to add that glowing connections are not a problem exclusively to over fused circuits. They happen on code complaint circuits, sometimes at only a few amps (and thanks to French ICC I learned they can happen at much lower currents like from an alarm clock), even those protected with RCD or AFCI. 

Looking for an arc signature is a witch hunt as most electrical fires will NEVER produce an arc signature. So with that said AFCIs offer no significant protection, if any. The obscene money being thrown into pseudo science AFCI could come up with a real solution to glowing connections.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Agreed on all your points, and very well detailed points at that Meadow:thumbsup:

As i hail from a state where nothing changes quickly, i can honestly claim a career of K&T (one circuit does all)_ original_ installs operating via fused OCPD's 

Traditionally , it's been the junctions and devices , not the K&T conductor itself that has been troublesome.

When afci's first debuted i sold them as the 'fix' for older wiring. After all they were adverstized in full page ads in the late 90's AS the cure.

I even convinced a few insurance companies that this was true :no:

But now the insurance companies don't care , and want ALL K&T removed, or they'll cancel HO's and/pr Biz insurance policies.

One would think, as Big Insurance basically underwrites the NFPA, that this would not be so.....:whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Edison Fuses are the best circuit protection and the most reliable .

The K & T wiring can be replaced with better conductors we have today .
Much better insulation .

If you want to prevent fires , a 20A circuit in each room and better devices .


Just Sayin;

Pete


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

hot spots will be not detected...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Agreed on all your points, and very well detailed points at that Meadow:thumbsup:
> 
> As i hail from a state where nothing changes quickly, i can honestly claim a career of K&T (one circuit does all)_ original_ installs operating via fused OCPD's
> 
> ...


 
That is another myth. Undisturbed knob and tube is far safer than BX or what replaced it. Knob and tube can sustain the largest overloads of any wiring method, perhaps more than our newer 90*C THHN. Knob and tube was designed around heat dissipation and isolation from wood. Further, knob and tube is held up via insulators, so if a section of insulation does become weak bare wire is not likely to contact anything. Watch the video, extreme yes, but notice how open wires behave on an insulator vs cable. Its apparent. 

Insurance companies need to go after what followed Knob and tube.

1. BX cable is a fire hazard. The armor of BX cable was not meant to be an equipment ground because it lacked a bonding strip, it was only meant for physical protection. HOs find a metal box and will install a grounding outlet. Faults also happen inside boxes themselves. The result is overheating armor acting like a heater coil because the impedance is to high to trip a breaker but low enough to generate intense heat. If a 30amp fuse is found within the box you can guarantee that will take the blame, not BX armor which will turn into a toaster even with a 15 amp fuse. Few know that. 


2. Early cloth covered romex. The insulation crumbles and falls off with age. It varies between age and make, but in quantities enough to justify replacement. Hot wires come in contact with wood. Current will trickle drying the wood into practically charcoal (pyrophoric carbonization) to the point ignition temperatures are lowered significantly. A fire may start, often on a particular framing member or within a certain wall section. Statistics may believe an arc fault caused this by an over driven staple, not compromised insulation. 


And if I really wanted point another risk more than K&T, that would be over wattage bulbs in flush mount light fixture with older wire insulation. Pre 90*C THHN is the greatest risk, and often why many light fixtures come with stickers say "use only 90*C insulated wire" 


With that said Knobe and Tube is the bottom of my worry list. Ill take a K&T home any day over BX or first gen romex.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Edison Fuses are the best circuit protection and the most reliable .
> 
> The K & T wiring can be replaced with better conductors we have today .
> Much better insulation .
> ...


K and T can survive overloads perhaps better than our newer wires. 20 amps may help, but only to a small degree. 







French ICC said:


> hot spots will be not detected...


 :thumbsup: Yup, that's where our problem is.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*Part I*



meadow said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Reading your thread has got me thinking. I continually hear fire safety experts speak of over current fires, however I have come up with a theory which leads be to believe that to be a myth, or at least misunderstood.
> 
> ...


Hello! 

Thank you for reading the document and for very interesting photos :thumbsup:... And sorry for the delay of the response ...Translations...

*I agree 100%! In the Europeen dwellings the electrical disorders never starts in cables! *

But, if I may, for protection, I considered it a little differently. For example, for a 2000 watt heating. Many electricians put a 2.5mm² circuit (only for this heating) with a protective 16A. The circuit can therefore deliver 3680 W. Ok. Heating will pull 2000 watts. I always preferred to install a circuit (always only for this heating) of 1.5mm² or 2.5mm² with a protective 10 A. The circuit can deliver 2300 W. I stayed as close to the nominal consumption for a release trip the earliest in the case of a progressive defect *.

But this is only a theory for here, what do you think?:notworthy:

_* (A dead short 10 or 16 amp that does not change anything)_



meadow said:


> I will further go out and say that the predominate reason why older homes have more electrical fires is not because of fewer circuits, but rather aged connections, some sub par from the day the home was built. More current will stress connections more, but it is the connections themselves, not the wire going up in flames.


*I agree 1000% :thumbsup:*




meadow said:


> Experts claim AFCIs give older homes the most protection, but that is a pure lie as glowing connections produce no arcing signature. So in that regard an AFCI is useless in an older home. AFCIs provide no significant fire protection in older dwellings, same can be said for new homes.


*I agree :thumbup: %*

*From what we know here, and please, consider that this is maybe is important:
*
*1 / -A glowing connection may well start a fire without arcs, ignition can be caused only by heat. **It is a fact that experts knows.*

*2 / - It is known that in glowing connections, temperature follows an exponential curve. And generally, if there is arcs, this is because of the excessive temperature which generates expansions of materials and loss of contact! *

*This means that:*

*- These arcs will intervene generally in the top of the exponential curve.
- Before this point, usually live hot spot has formed elements conducive to ignition of a fire (coal PVC and others) and the first arc will can light the fire.

In conclusion, IMO detect serie arcs in connections seems** unnecessary. B**ecause it's too late.**
*
*In addition, according to the publication of Dr.Joe Engel, and various others publications on forums and other, the series arc detection function does not work in American homes...

*http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_iee_paper_presentation_orlando_2012_02_03.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...I_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLmC5quELrE

*What to say and add yet...*



meadow said:


> Thus, my belief is that most fires caused by over fused circuits have nothing to do with the wire itself. The real fire risk from over fused circuits is not in where the wire passes or how it behaves, but rather connections at devices and joints. Having over fused circuits stresses the connections more, particularly back stabbed outlets and marginal splices/joints. The fuse allows more current to flow so each joint heats more. The cyclic nature of appliance load causes metal to expand and contract, especially back-stabbed outlets.
> 
> The connections begin to become weak faster than they normally would, and because of the higher current, when the connection does become weak disintegration becomes faster.
> 
> The end result is a glowing connection which starts a fire. I believe the risk of a glowing connection goes up where over fusing takes place, with the greatest risk coming from back stabbed outlets, worse of all being daisy chained back stabs. As you can see it would make sense why this would give rise to a myth, and it is in theory ok to assume higher fusing= more fires, but its not so much the wire. Its the connections.


*:thumbsup:*

*I totally agree, you are absolutely right Meadow.

**Here we know that almost all electrical fire comes from hot spots in the connections.

**And we know why also ...*

*../...

*


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> On the subject of back stab: I believe this wiring method to be a very poor connection, especially when dealing with large current carrying appliances. I believe back stabs loosed over time and result in glowing connections.
> 
> Here are some pics,
> 
> ...


Hello I'm come back for the Part II...:wheelchair:

Thank you for these pictures, it's very interesting 

Are you the type of metal used for the line? IMO too, this seems low, but I guess it has been well studied. 

Concerning the "Back wiring", we use this system from décades. I think it can be better, handling the plug, there is no to torque effort on the screw ... But that's just an idea.



meadow said:


> My belief is that fires resulting from arc faults, over currents, short circuits and current leaking to ground is only a small percentage of electrical fries. My guess is that 95% of all electrical fires are from glowing connections, many of which occur in code complaint circuits.
> 
> I believe arc faults and over current fires are mostly a myth, misunderstood and a hyped statistic. I believe experts automatically assume electrical fires predominately stem from arc faults or over currents because myths lead them to misinterpret evidence. In turn misinterpreted evidence keeps the myth alive. A true perpetual motion machine in existence.
> 
> Until glowing connections are addressed, I do not believe we will ever see a decrease in electrical fires. On the contrary, as electrical systems age glowing connections will increase.


:thumbsup:

I* agree with this. Myths that can sell equipment while not necessarily reducing not much fire? :devil2:I am sure that as long as the glowing connection will not be mastered the proportion of electrical fires did not significantly decline, in spite of that growing expenses of users **:whistling2:
*
*And despite all the efforts of electricians to do better.

Thank you for all your posts, they are very interesting :thumbsup: 

Best regards,
*
FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Agreed on all your points, and very well detailed points at that Meadow:thumbsup:
> 
> As i hail from a state where nothing changes quickly, i can honestly claim a career of K&T (one circuit does all)_ original_ installs operating via fused OCPD's
> 
> ...


*Hi Chicken Steve ! *

Do not take my question wrong, I do not want to offend anyone but:

*"Is this a problem for insurance companies if there are electrical fires in homes?" :blink: ... **:laughing:*

*Best regards,*

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> Hello!
> 
> Thank you for reading the document and for very interesting photos ... And sorry for the delay of the response ...Translations...


 Welcome. Talking to you is an honor, my entire perception of our trade has changed for the better. Enlightenment is something I enjoy being part of and experiencing. :thumbup:




*



I agree 100%! In the Europeen dwellings the electrical disorders never starts in cables! 


Click to expand...

*My understanding is that cables are imbedded in stone or mason walls? But I do know of dwellings (like Norway) where wire is in plastic conduit within a wooden stud wall?

Is it the same where the cable is within a wooden wall, cable never fails?


I think testing cables before energizing them is good at catching damage where in the US that is unheard of. Electricians will run and staple the wire and then connect it to circuit breakers without testing :furious: A damaged wire will go unnoticed until to late. 






> But, if I may, for protection, I considered it a little differently. For example, for a 2000 watt heating. Many electricians put a 2.5mm² circuit (only for this heating) with a protective 16A. The circuit can therefore deliver 3680 W. Ok. Heating will pull 2000 watts. I always preferred to install a circuit (always only for this heating) of 1.5mm² or 2.5mm² with a protective 10 A. The circuit can deliver 2300 W. I stayed as close to the nominal consumption for a release trip the earliest in the case of a progressive defect *.
> 
> But this is only a theory for here, what do you think?:notworthy:
> 
> _* (A dead short 10 or 16 amp that does not change anything)_


I think I get your reasoning? 


If something happens like a fault less current (incident energy at contingency point) will need to be drawn to trip the breaker. I wonder a lot about that. 

To be honest, Im still thinking, but IMO I think it makes little if any difference, especially with an RCD in the mix. 


Now, if I may. Is the magnetic trip of a type B 10 amp breaker the same as a type B 16 amp as is a Type B 20amp? All 3 are 150 amps? Or does the 10amp breaker trip magnetically at 100amps, 16 amp trip magnetically at 160amps and 20 amp trip magnetically at 200amps? 



Correct me if wrong, but 1.5mm2 is for 16 amp breaker and 2.5mm2 is for 20amp breaker? You can not go higher than this? Even with motors?




*



I agree 1000% :thumbsup:




I agree :thumbup: %

From what we know here, and please, consider that this is maybe is important:

1 / -A glowing connection may well start a fire without arcs, ignition can be caused only by heat. It is a fact that experts knows.


Click to expand...

**I 100% agree. No arc or current leaking to ground. *


*



2 / - It is known that in glowing connections, temperature follows an exponential curve. And generally, if there is arcs, this is because of the excessive temperature which generates expansions of materials and loss of contact! 


Click to expand...

**I agree. However, arcs are not always produced, or produced when a fire has already ensued. *





*



This means that:

- These arcs will intervene generally in the top of the exponential curve.
- Before this point, usually live hot spot has formed elements conducive to ignition of a fire (coal PVC and others) and the first arc will can light the fire.


Click to expand...

**I agree, and sometimes no arcs are even present. *



*



In conclusion, IMO detect serie arcs in connections seems unnecessary. Because it's too late.


Click to expand...

**Series arcs may be beneficial in the rare event of a broken lamp cord (across the conductor) where said cord is stepped on by something making and breaking the connection over and over. However, with in wall wiring no protection is offered by series arc protection. Unless something is repeatedly jiggling the wire back and forth sustaining a series arc at 120 volts with the typical dwelling current is not likely. *


*Further, most loose connections produce no series arc.* 





> *In addition, according to the publication of Dr.Joe Engel, and various others publications on forums and other, the series arc detection function does not work in American homes...
> 
> **http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_iee_paper_presentation_orlando_2012_02_03.pdf*
> 
> ...


*It was determined regular (branch/feeder) AFCIs could not detect series arcs. As a result the 2005 NEC required all AFCIs as of January 1st 2008 to be of the combination type.*

*All combination AFCI means is that they can detect series arcs. But that does not improve or change anything.*

*1. Series arc protection has caused nuisance tripping to sky rocket*. *Where regular AFCIs sought arc signatures at 75 amps and above, newer AFCIs look for arc signatures at 5 amps. With the lack of computing power in AFCIs there is simply no way to reliably differentiate between a 5amp abnormal arc and an UL listed appliance. This is where most AFCI headaches come from. Customers are now endowed as the research and development labs for a technology that is not even theoretically correct or feasible. *

*3. Further, with the technology being poor at differentiating between normal arcs it also has trouble differentiating abnormal arcs. So when a dangerous arc does begin to take place their is no guarantee it will detect it fast enough or even trip altogether. *

*3. Even if Series arc protection was perfected, it is of little if any value to dwelling wiring. *

*In fact, Id even make an off the wall claim having it would be a bigger hazard. The odds of a series arc occurring only by itself are so small, that the risk of loosing the service neutral and having the equipment damaged is many times greater.*

*4. The only way I can see series arc protection being perfected (become operationally feasible) is with great capital investment, many times over what is being spent now. Panels would probably be better suited with a central processer (original idea) or communicating breakers where the logic can be updated regularly as advancements are made in arc logic algorithms. This of course would also require hard ware with far more computing power than AFCIs have now. *












*



What to say and add yet...





I totally agree, you are absolutely right Meadow.

Here we know that almost all electrical fire comes from hot spots in the connections.

And we know why also ...

../...



Click to expand...

**Thank you! :thumbsup:*

*That is correct. And the few that don't come from glowing connections can be caught via GFP/RCD. *

*AFCIs aren't even targeting the root of the problem. *

*I liken AFCIs to power factor correction devises being mandated for residential. They do nothing outside of everything claimed by those who reap finical gain.*

*Can you say scam?*


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

"*Panels would probably be better suited with a central processer (original idea) or communicating breakers where the logic can be updated regularly as advancements are made in arc logic algorithms"

*Oh, yes. A little network, where each branch circuit reports its waveform to a decent-sized CPU, which then makes the go/no-go decision and can tell a breaker to trip. Pay for one good computer rather than twenty puny ones. Then as long as you've got a computer analyzing what's on the wire, design it with a micro-SD slot so you can download its records of what's happening on every circuit. Imagine having that information the next time you troubleshoot an intermittent problem.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

> Hello I'm come back for the Part II...
> 
> Thank you for these pictures, it's very interesting
> 
> Are you the type of metal used for the line? IMO too, this seems low, but I guess it has been well studied.


It is low, its a very poor cheap low quality connection. These outlets are meant to save contractors money at the expense of putting lives in danger.

You'd think well studied and yes, for the short term. Go 30 years down the road... you've got to be kidding me  




> Concerning the "Back wiring", we use this system from décades. I think it can be better, handling the plug, there is no to torque effort on the screw ... But that's just an idea.


It better, but as you see from this post http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/glowing-connections-92673/index5/#post1741761 even a back wire can fail. All connections can fail, that is how it works. Some more than others, but still. 








> I* agree with this. Myths that can sell equipment while not necessarily reducing not much fire? :devil2:I am sure that as long as the glowing connection will not be mastered the proportion of electrical fires did not significantly decline, in spite of that growing expenses of users **:whistling2:
> *


 *Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! :thumbup:*

*That sums up everything. No truer words have been said thus far. This is the modus operandi, an unwritten and unknown rule to most in the industry. *


*AFCI swill not make a significant dent in fires. Years from now I am sure another expensive device will be made to address another small issue. The following dialog in quotes is purely factious only to represent what will probably take place considering current trends. 'it turns out we were wrong, arcs aren't the only cause of fire, extensive research has recently alerted us to a condition that no one knew about. We have come up with this new device through back breaking testing and development that detects pyrophoric carbonization {see further explanation*} from over  driven staples only catching the hot conductor' People think 'wow progress' And then another device will come out adding cost, and another promising to fix yet another small issue and then another fixing something not even an issue... Each device complex, expensive, deceptive you name it. People believe that for the first time a problem was discovered (it was known for decades, just covertly repressed until half truths could be wrapped around it), a "solution" created and a profitable device that will save lives.*


*It will be the same way if years and years down the road glowing connections are addressed (and I wouldn't be surprised if they are addressed last). No simple reliable solution will be offered where one is created, because it will not be profitable enough. 'advancements in recent research has shown us glowing connection may be a slightly larger contributor to dwelling fires than previously thought' 'some glowing connections may not break apart fast enough before catching fire' 'Where AFCI have saved countless people this will save perhaps some more' An expensive pseudo functioning device will be put on the market in hopes of fulfilling a promise. Probably several for each one; after all "research" will identify a dozen "different" types of glowing connections. People will call this "human progress" and be grateful to a lie. *

*That is nothing more than complete fraud. All of it is fraud.*


*The current system is engineered so an electrician firefighter, safety expert ect can hold up a clear case AFCI promo breaker and say "wow, how  sexy. Technology is finally going to stop electrical fires" As glitzy or promising they look to someone associating technology with better living that circuit board is about as useful as a gum wrapper. 
*

*What electricians, firefighters and other experts are never told is that data is manipulated and evidence redacted because glitz makes more money than a practical solution. If lightbulbs lasted for eternity they'd sell a heck lot less. That business venture is no dissimilar to life and property. 
*




> *And despite all the efforts of electricians to do better.
> 
> Thank you for all your posts, they are very interesting :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Welcome.  See part two below.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

*Pyrophoric Carbonization*

*Further explanation 

I believe pyrophoric carbonization is another repressed concept manipulated to support AFCIs. I believe many electrical fires deemed as arcing cables within walls are caused by pyrophoric carbonization where an over driven staple will damage the insulation of the hot conductor energizing the staple. The neutral and ground are not electrically involved with the staple thus no arcing or short circuiting. The staple will trickle current into the wood for months, even many years going unnoticed slowly drying out the wood and turning it into charcoal. The current is low and resistive, so no arcing signature is ever produced. Heating is local, with the most drying out occurring around the staple. Eventually a fire ensues, intensifying while spreading with ease because the wood has little moisture. 

It is then falsely assumed that the wood was set on fire or dried out because the staple was creating an arcing condition between the hot and ground or hot and neutral that persisted long enough to accomplish this. 

That can not be easily confirmed, yet attractive to assume. Once the fire starts evidence is destroyed. By the time the fire is put out, all thats left is consumed wood and wire without insulation. I guess if one really looked further they would find evidence of wood drying out beyond the staple such as where it nails to the floor studs... but again that might not be considered or even remaining as evidence. 

In fact, Id say where an arc did take place fire is far less probable. The arc will cause intense heat, which in effect damaging wire insulation increasing the amount of exposure to copper. If a staple was driven hard enough or through the cable to damage insulation in the first place room for extensive intimate contact once insulation is burned away is very likely. Think about it, wire bulges when a nail is driven through it, would the wire not push back? With the wire squeezing the nail or compressed by a staple, wouldn't the copper conductors come closer as insulation is burned or melted out of the way? For these reasons I believe an over driven staple or nail piercing a cable is more likely to trip a breaker than not. If an RCD is involved the tripping will be immediate as soon as the event initiates with near 100% of events being caught since current will be shunted into the EGC. UL testing has shown nearly all conditions involve the EGC. The arcing that takes place in the time to trip a standard breaker will not start a fire (unless prolonged over a long period of time) because the wood has moisture in it. I am not denying cases exist where an arc event lasts long enough to set fire and not trip a standard breaker, but my belief is that they are not anywhere as common as they are made out to be. 

My belief is that many (if not most) in wall cable fires are not triggered by arcing, but rather low level current leaking into wood. Experts jump to the conclusion it was arcing, and this is desired because it will create a profitable myth. But truth is I could drive a staple, have it tough the hot conductor and have fire down the road without arc logic ever picking up on it. Who would figure that out?


My belief is that at least half (if not over) of in wall fires believed to be caused by arc faults are from pyrophoric carbonization. My belief is nearly all pyrophoric carbonization events are re-branded as arc faults with few ever challenging it. Because evidence is burned away, the same mentality takes flight as with glowing connection: no evidence no existence. So therefore it cant happen. But it does. 

So with that said cable fires will continue without arc fault breakers ever stopping them.

Funny thing is a good insulation tester would catch the condition. All the more reason to test, but I don't see the NEC ever requiring it.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This graphic depicts the condition. Yes an open neutral could cause it, but most cases are caused by a live conductor with damaged insulation. I believe this condition is severely under-reported with a false assumption made as to having been caused by an arc condition fueling the staple/nail arc fault myth keeping AFCIs afloat:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This is a phenomenal concept to get one's head around Meadow

~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> This is a phenomenal concept to get one's head around Meadow
> 
> ~CS~


Not so much the concept as the relabeling. 

Perhaps even here where it says 

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf



> its not unusual for cables and power cords after being damaged to take years before their insulation finally breaks down enough to allow short-circuit current to begin flowing


 How do we know it takes years for damaged insulation to be break down? What if the insulation is damaged from day one but it takes years for the wood to dry out and ignite? How do we know short circuits (arcing) is taking place before the fire starts? What if the fire isn't even started by a short circuit arc?

See where I am going with this...? :whistling2:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Welcome. Talking to you is an honor, my entire perception of our trade has changed for the better. Enlightenment is something I enjoy being part of and experiencing. :thumbup:


Thank you Meadow, it is also very interesting to talk about technical problems with you. :notworthy:

Just for this part, because today i'm busy: 



meadow said:


> I think I get your reasoning?
> 
> If something happens like a fault less current (incident energy at contingency point) will need to be drawn to trip the breaker. I wonder a lot about that.
> 
> ...


You are right, a short circuit "franc" (a direct and instantaneous contact between the live and neutral -not phase between the PE or a mass or others) will generate Icc thousands ampères (Hey, ICC ) So regardless of the value of the suritensité protection, it will not change anything ....

I completely agree with that, no problem.

With JP Denonain and others, we made the list of faults which can occurs in an electrical installation well done and up to code. A defect did not appear often mentioned (although everyone saw its effects) or may be insufficiently alerted.

We called it "slow short circuit" (the word can be discussed ). It is when a current path between the phase and neutral forms slowly (eg 5-10-20 secondes or others) before the fault reaches sufficient to make trip the overcurrent protection.

In these case, more is less the over current protection, better is, it was the sense of our observations, and of our reflexions ...

What do you think of this?

Sorry for the bad translation!

Best regards

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Thank you Meadow, it is also very interesting to talk about technical problems with you. :notworthy:
> 
> Just for this part, because today i'm busy:
> 
> ...




I think its possible depending on the impedance between hot and neutral. Higher magnetic trip means more incident energy.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> *Further explanation
> 
> I believe pyrophoric carbonization is another repressed concept manipulated to support AFCIs. I believe many electrical fires deemed as arcing cables within walls are caused by pyrophoric carbonization where an over driven staple will damage the insulation of the hot conductor energizing the staple. The neutral and ground are not electrically involved with the staple thus no arcing or short circuiting. The staple will trickle current into the wood for months, even many years going unnoticed slowly drying out the wood and turning it into charcoal. The current is low and resistive, so no arcing signature is ever produced. Heating is local, with the most drying out occurring around the staple. Eventually a fire ensues, intensifying while spreading with ease because the wood has little moisture.
> 
> ...



Bump. Everyone needs to read this and understand why AFCI's are the biggest scam ever in the electrical trade.


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

This page has some more references about pyrolysis.

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hohotwall.htm


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> This graphic depicts the condition. Yes an open neutral could cause it, but most cases are caused by a live conductor with damaged insulation. I believe this condition is severely under-reported with a false assumption made as to having been caused by an arc condition fueling the staple/nail arc fault myth keeping AFCIs afloat:


Hello Meadow 

That you say seems interesting.

We was relationship and we had a very long meeting with a great engineer in Tex. (about electrical fires), who is spe******ed in chemistry of fire. He appraisals for courts and solved several very complicated cases about electrical fires. He is very well known for his great skills and I think it might be a valuable opinion. :thumbsup: I can send to you this contact (PM) if you want.

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*My answer to Meadow was only to **the subject*:

*Pyrophoric Carbonization* 

*I apologize for not putting it in the title.*

*Best regards*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow
> 
> That you say seems interesting.
> 
> ...


 
Great! :thumbup:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> This page has some more references about pyrolysis.
> 
> http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hohotwall.htm


Hello! 

It's very interesting. I had heard a fire in Quebec professional emphasize a glowing connection could transmit energy (radiation) timber thanks to the use of metallic case and that it was not good ..

We have not wood house here, it's very rare so I have not experience 

Best regards


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Welcome. Talking to you is an honor, my entire perception of our trade has changed for the better. Enlightenment is something I enjoy being part of and experiencing. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Hello Meadow  *

*A French word is " I do not share confidences with God" ... But that is published by the French journalist and other publications seems to report many problems... *

*What do you think?*

*Best regards,*

*FICC-*


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *Hello Meadow  *
> 
> *A French word is " I do not share confidences with God" ... But that is published by the French journalist and other publications seems to report many problems... *
> 
> ...


Do you have links to the published literature? I wonder what they are saying.


I think our fundamental understanding of electrical fires is flawed to begin with. I still believe glowing connections are the #1 cause of fire and are responsible for 80-95% of all electrical fires.

I also have considerable suspicion to believe a hot wire trickling into wood for long enough will start a fire, and that fire is miss labelled as an arc fault. To my surprise there is an incredible shortage or published studies regarding electrical pyrophoric carbonization... perhaps a truth to inconvenient, to incriminating to bring to public knowledge? Same with glowing connections. Some studies exist, but few. This I believe is no accident. 


As an example this post gives away, people are beginning to believe AFCIs will do everything in the prevention of electrical fires:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/cell-charges-arc-fault-248137/


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> See where I am going with this...? :whistling2:


Yes, apparently Mr Franklin's research came before UL & the CMP , along with EIA recommendations>



> A 1993 UL Fact-Finding Investigation sponsored by the Electronic Industries Association (EIA)7
> recommended that the magnetic trip level of circuit breakers should be lowered to improve the ability of a
> circuit breaker to react to arcing faults (particularly parallel arcing faults). This resulted in an EIA proposal
> for the 1996 NEC Section 210-20,8
> ...



source

Rather bad timing , as the CMP had already been infiltrated to debut the afci.

Some original members , btw, still serve on cmp-2 . One can view the same names back almost 2 decades as either a seated member or non-voting capacity

See where _i'm going_ with that? :whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I also have considerable suspicion to believe a hot wire trickling into wood for long enough will start a fire, and that fire is miss labelled as an arc fault. To my surprise there is an incredible shortage or published studies regarding electrical pyrophoric carbonization...


IIRC, we have a number of states who's addendums include insulated staples.

Being i'm from the land of leaky old stone foundation cellars who's hand hewn log joists expand and contract with seasonal moisture, i can honestly attest to overdriven staples damage.

The floor joists will swell (this time of year) , causing the staple(s) to bear down and into the romex. 

The damage done is relevant not only to the type of staple_ (because the older ones were bigger w/more metal)_ , but also the type of wire, cloth nm, thermoplastic nm, etc.

What is often first seen are rings of corrosion, itself _providing a more conductable path_ over the surface of the wiring to the wood :no:

we (our antiquated installs of vintage era) could be a grand study....

I could prattle on, but the notion to meg the entire home from the MBJ on out to all four corners has crossed my mind ......two scenarios, one with said MBJ made to poco , one lifting it from all GEC's and poco ....what would be the dif...????


~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Id megger the individual home runs, its the most optimal. If every branch circuit was megged in a resi dwelling many would be to surprised...


----------



## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

i've just seen this and i wonder if it is only done that way in russia and if so is itthere more fire caused by hotspot there than there is in france ? 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=T4DxyI3QWko#t=298


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

At least they pretwist.....

~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

My understanding is that Russia has some of the lowest installation standards in The east. In fact most communist controlled countries used TN-C up to outlets until the early 90s where France and UK got rid them decades past. My understanding is that UK and Europe have been using a terminal block for some time, but could be wrong as I only hear this stuff second hand.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> At least they pretwist.....
> 
> ~CS~


:laughing: That's just embarrassing for us


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This is interesting, 3:13:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8drjty7UNA


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Posted before but worth reading for those who have not. Page 25 (16 on the page itself) supports my statement that armored cable has a high ground fault path resistance. Surprisingly, even BX with a bond strip might be to high, something few know:



http://ewh.ieee.org/cmte/pses/ffat/support/RESAReport.pdf


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> This is interesting, 3:13:


Is that a heat sink within the arc chamber of a russian breaker...?

~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Is that a heat sink within the arc chamber of a russian breaker...?
> 
> ~CS~


Yup! 

It seems those breaker contacts open partly creating an arc which is than drawn into the heat sink while stretched out and eventually extinguished. Something I have to say is neat.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

metalpats said:


> i've just seen this and i wonder if it is only done that way in russia and if so is itthere more fire caused by hotspot there than there is in france ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello matalpats 

I have not information about russia electrical installations. On the video, wires semble the same like France. The rest is pretty much the same. Except that there is no splices, it is forbidden (I do not say it's worse, I think a splice with mechanical means of holding it's good) .A thing seems different. The junction-box. If you look at the covers, I think they will be covered with plaster. Here it is forbidden, all connections must remain accessible.

Although you and thank you for the video :thumbsup:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> This is interesting, 3:13:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8drjty7UNA


Hi Meadow  
We have also a chamber arcs, have you the same in your circuits breakers? 

In fact, these circuits breakers look like to our old French circuit breakers...( before 80's)

Best regards, 

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Yup!
> 
> It seems those breaker contacts open partly creating an arc which is than drawn into the heat sink while stretched out and eventually extinguished. Something I have to say is neat.


Yes Meadow, it's that. :thumbsup:

This will absorb heat such as radiator, we have too, here.

Best regards

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*After a great success in the USA, it just arrived in France. *

*(it was already announced for year-end 2013 ...):whistling2:*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ra2lRzFZno

:laughing:


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

*An in addition, on the French wikipedia article on electrical fires,
*
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendie_d'origine_%C3%A9lectrique

*it is said that* :

"*The arc is the most common cause according to experts"* 2

2. ↑* New Technology for Preventing Electrical Fires Residential: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCIs) By Douglas A. Lee, Andrew M. Trotta, William H. King, Jr. *

*http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/108737/AFCIFireTechnology.pdf/*

...


----------



## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

French ICC said:


> *After a great success in the USA, it just arrived in France. *
> 
> *(it was already announced for year-end 2013 ...):whistling2:*
> 
> ...


at least they prove it's preceded by glowing connection,
if only electrician and politician in europe can learn about Paschen's law before it is too late ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

metalpats said:


> at least they prove it's preceded by glowing connection,
> if only electrician and politician in europe can learn about Paschen's law before it is too late ...


*Hello* 

*Arcs are just a possible cause of overheating.* *There are a lot of expertise with no trace of fire arcs*. *Usually arrives before the Joule effect. **Also insulation can only charboner heat without a single arc, insinuating **contrary to what is said. *_(I did the tests)_*.* *I think that everybody knows that...
*
*If I can serve as a translator:*
----
*Than they show that when the insulation is carbonized there arcs of leakage current. *
*----*
*But where they indicate that this is happening, there is the same potential :blink:.... Difficult to have arcs :no: :laughing:*

*Who have seen this video here were :laughing: because they think that arcs detection is a joke and unnecessary, and the real problem is glowing connection. 
*
*No one spoke of these products here, complete silence.* 

*Suddenly, the announcement of the commercial launch of these produce has occurred just about 2 weeks after the publication of the report "The electrical french connection or the real truth about afcis" in 2013 (?).* *They were announced for the end of 2013, **on the site, but .....they never arrived. **Incredible ...!*

*But it arrive again !*

*Best regards


*


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Yup!
> 
> It seems those breaker contacts open partly creating an arc which is than drawn into the heat sink while stretched out and eventually extinguished. Something I have to say is neat.


Hello Meadow 

http://jacob.patrick.free.fr/rss/co/disjoncteurs_web/co/01_arc.html

Have you the same system? I think yes, but I just realized that I never dismantled a circuit breaker US. Other stuff YES, but no circuit breaker 

Thank you very much.

Best regards


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello Meadow
> 
> http://jacob.patrick.free.fr/rss/co/disjoncteurs_web/co/01_arc.html
> 
> ...




In some breakers yes, in others the gap is larger and that alone is enough to self extinguish. I will have to find some pics.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> Do you have links to the published literature? I wonder what they are saying.


Hello Meadow 

*I have** great respect for everyone, I do not want to offend anyone, but **here's what** we saw: *

_*Extract of the # 130 post: *
_
"The first time I heard of a certain product, in 2000, at a Headquarter of a big French with my friend (colleague) at first we thought it was a joke. Arcs ? But it’s glowing connection, the main cause of electrical fires! But the R&D engineer showed us a printed documentation. Waoo... it's was not a joke!!! Then this engineer explained how this product works with details. At this instant, we and we have explained why, in our opinion, it could not work reliably. For us,unlikely that trips when we have to do,or they might trip often for… nothing. .../... The R&D engineer said no but he could not dismantle our arguments. So we could not imagine that these products are widely sold years later... "

*IMO, at this time (2000) the function "serial arc detection" could not work and these products are probably only RCDs*

*I would add that the R & D engineer just said before, that, the glowing connections are the major cause of electrical fires (all professionnels knows ) before saying, 10 minutes after that arcs was the major cause. **Without laugh. **First improbability ?*

*Then we see this, 2002:*

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Important_Update_from_a_Certified_Fire_Investigator~20020812.htm

In it, it says in particular: 

( Extracts )

*Margaret Simonson*

*…/…*

Safety has a cost. If an AFCI cost the same or less than a normal circuit breaker, but improved safety .001% then it would be a desirable feature and it is probable that no one would have any disagreement. Regrettably, the AFCI costs more than a normal circuit breaker and that cost is being passed on to the consumer. A higher level of safety is being provided by installing the AFCI, but how much higher is that safety level and does that unknown level of increase justify the cost to the consumer? At a June 7,2002 meeting with the National Association of Home Builders, a representative of Cutler Hammer indicated that an AFCI will sell for approximately seven times the cost of a typical circuit breaker.

…/…
(The order is not important) 

*1- The main cause of electrical fires is resistance heating, an area not addressed by the AFCI*
…/…
*3- Many of the faults detected by an AFCI will also be detected by a normal circuit breaker and/or a GFCI. It is recognized that the AFCI will detect them faster, with a lower release of total energy.*
*4- Electrical arcing is not recognized as a common cause of electrical fires. An electrical arc will not normally ignite a wooden structural member.*
*…/…*
*7- The requirement for the AFCI was adopted with minimal supporting data on a non-UL listed product. The consumer is now being used as a mandated test subject. *

And in this document also, *GENERAL COMMENTS *

1- The original UL report to CPSC outlined 14 tests that were needed if ALL electrical fires were to be prevented. The present UL standard only contains 4 of those 14 tests. See article by David Dini of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. in IAEI News - September/October 2001
…/…
*2- The most common cause of electrical fires is the overheated connection such as a loose wire nut, back wired receptacle, or corroded terminal screw. This type of heating is often referred to as resistance heating or “Joule heating”.*
…/…
*An article by Dr. George Gregory of Square D Co. “Using Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters to Reduce Residential Fires” states “An AFCI will not detect a glowing connection or hot spot, unless arcing is present.”*
…/…
An article in Fire Technology (vol 36, No.3) - co-authored by William King of CPSC states “Existing AFCI’s do not detect another cause of electrical fires - the glowing connection - unless an arc or ground fault is also present.”
…/…
3- Some allegations are being made that when resistance heating occurs, an arc will eventually result and the AFCI will operate. This is a true statement. As the fire spreads, it is extremely likely that the spreading fire will contact energized electrical wires and cause a fault. This may or may not occur before the fire spreads beyond the junction box. UL has proposed two tests, the Overheating Conductor: Hot plug; and the Overheating Conductor: Glowing connection (“Technology for Detecting and Monitoring Conditions that could Cause Electrical Wiring System Fires”, September 1995 pages 103 and 108). If indeed the AFCI will prevent resistance heating faults, they should be capable of passing these tests.
…/…
*10- Presently there is no independent test device to determine if an AFCI is functioning properly*. Pushing the test button is the only choice. As noted with the GFCI problem noted above, pushing the test button does not provide an adequate level of assurance of safe operation. An independent, certified test device is needed for inspection authorities to verify correct operation.

*INCREASED COST *

.../...
In a letter dated May 17, 2002 from Eaton Corporation they admit that installation of a full panel AFCI will add “...about $3.50 to the monthly mortgage payment.” For a 25 year mortgage this means an added cost of $1,050.00 to the consumer. 
…/…
Ect...

*This brings us back** to what we already knew since a long time, the main cause of electrical fires is glowing connections, more often by Joule effect.*

*More improbabilities** ?*

*Then we saw that:* 

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

*This Engineer can not** operate the "arc detection serial" *

:laughing:

*So this engineer ask manufacturers, and see please, the last response:
*
There is another test that Manufacturer ‘B’ referred to the carbonized path arc clearing time test. This is a load-sustained series type of arc, such as that produced by a broken wire or a loose connection (what our test set-up produced). This test requires that the insulation eventually be burned away so that it becomes like #1 above a fault to ground. *According to Manufacturer ‘B’, there are no commercially available devices that are required to meet this test.*

*?! *

*How is this possible? :blink:*

*We are talking again about the series arcs **detection function... And this engineer said:* 

*“We believe that the electrical community in general (authors included) has been duped into thinking that these devices are a significant safety improvement, while in reality they will only do what GFCIs and regular circuit breakers do already. We are very concerned that people are spending their money on these devices, and they are truly not getting their money’s worth”.**
**

**Then we saw that:*

*AFCI Inventor Responds*

*http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCI_Inventor_Responds~20020814.htm*

_"Mike,_

_I invented the AFCI circuit breaker in the 1980s and my engineering staff at www.zlan.com advanced its technology in the 90s: (Lee Blanton & Bob Clunn)._

_Bob Huddleston's 8/01/02 article "AFCI - Why I Have A Problem With It" only scratches the surface of the underlying problems associated with the AFCI. However, our homes and offices desperately need the protection of today's AFCI circuit breaker._

_I strongly recommend installing AFCIs in all circuits in the home. Even with all the problems and improvements that are equally desperately needed._

_An unadvertised electrical path that Bob may not have tested is the GFI path: Line (hot) to Ground. The AFCI circuit breaker has a pigtail and two connectors because of the pseudo GFI function, not the AFCI function. Of the AFCIs that we tested, all used the GFI path to ground. The GFI reacts when a current of 60 milliamps or larger is detected to ground. This path does not qualify as a GFCI path as it exceeds the body model of 3 to 5 milliamps.However, this GFI path addresses a large percentage of the electrical fires; either a Line (hot) to Ground shorts or after a Line to Neutral shorts that bridges to the ground wire causing a GFI trip._

_Try the series arcing test from Line to Ground! The AFCI may also trip Neutral to Ground if the Neutral voltage is elevated._

_The fast response of the GFI path is the saving grace of today's AFCI circuit breaker._

_----- I strongly urge you not to repeal the use of the AFCI breaker --- this would be a major mistake._

_----- I instead encourage expanding its use. I say this knowing of a ton of problems and issues that must be standardized and fixed._

_The problems with the present AFCI are a direct reflection of UL, NEMA, and the UL-1699 code._

_I know that everyone feels that they have been duped by UL and NEMA, and we have, (Congress needs to fix this issue)._

_After working with these organizations for several years; I feel a Congressional hearing to remove UL and NEMA from this process is the only way the problems & issues can be resolved._

_By misleading us, and not allowing outside inputs & scrutiny, these organizations are a detriment to our safety!_

_Zlan can demonstrate most of what Bob's testing was hoping to find in the AFCI breakers._

_Again in closing, I strongly encourage you not to defeat the AFCI, instead I implore you to expand its use. Its pseudo GFI function will save thousands of lives._

_The action that I encourage you to take is:_

_---- push for a Congressional hearing ---._

*OK. *

*Onc again, I have great respect for everyone, I do not want to offend anyone, Tell me **please if I'm wrong .... I'll be the first to recognize and apologize ...**but please, where the** inventor** said that Bob was wrong and that the series arc detection works? *

*It simply says that** the differential function works! Great! *

*We know that since ... 50’s and improved in 90’s. Where is the new function touted by adverts? Just a question...
*

*One can find still other improbabilities, as here:*

*AFCI Tester a Scam?*

*http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/AFCI-HTML/HTML/AFCITesterScam~20020828.htm*


*Or as here: *


http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_iee_paper_presentation_orlando_2012_02_03.pdf


*Once again, I have great respect for everyone, I do not want to offend anyone, but all this seems normal? :whistling2:*

*It’s just questions…*

*Thank you for your attention and for your patience,given my English!*

*If it can help, *

*Best regards, *

*FICC-*


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> _*Try the series arcing test from Line to Ground! *_



:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> -*--- push for a Congressional hearing ---*.


Ok....

Is there a petition....?

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BTW, i am seeing the same names in these links that i've seen now since the debut of the afci....

~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> :no::no::no::no:
> 
> ~CS~


Hello 

Yes it's the differential device which works in this case! :whistling2:

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Ok....
> 
> Is there a petition....?
> 
> ~CS~


No, it was in the document...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> Hello
> 
> Yes it's the differential device which works in this case! :whistling2:
> 
> FICC-


IIt's like a leak. This is not the new function tested by engineer! 

A series of arcs in the same wire, without contact with an other wire, neutral, PE or Ground, or other phase. 

In addition the inventor does not deny! :no:

:whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> In addition the inventor does not deny! :no:
> 
> :whistling2:


yes & no FrenchOne

Spencer _'stretches' _the definition , calls an NFPA EE incompetent , and suggests to Mike Holt that a Congressional hearing is in order

I think he should have one.

Unfortunately , the same bias cast of characters will probably appear to testify on his behalf

~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> yes & no FrenchOne
> 
> Spencer _'stretches' _the definition, calls an NFPA EE incompetent , and suggests to Mike Holt that a Congressional hearing is in order
> 
> ~


OK, Chiken Steve Thank you 

The definition, an an improbability more ?....

I have seen videos of manufacturers or arc detection in series in the same wire works (in the videos) It's this new feature that justify these products, if not, they are like RCDs. 

Now this function, the engineer says that it can not to work.

And the inventor does not say otherwise :

He said just something else... arcs line to ground are not arcs in the same wire! 

Just or wrong?



chicken steve said:


> I think he should have one.
> 
> Unfortunately , the same bias cast of characters will probably appear to testify on his behalf
> 
> ~CS~


Ok thank you so muchn Chicken Steve, I wanted to say that this phrase was in the paper, it is not mine.

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> yes & no FrenchOne
> 
> Spencer _'stretches' _the definition , calls an NFPA EE incompetent , and suggests to Mike Holt that a Congressional hearing is in order
> 
> ...


*Hello. 

I allows me to post these pictures below, perhaps be simpler cause my bad English. 

I did this to show the different functions, I think everyone knows, of course, it's just to clarify my thoughts. 
*​ 





 *Arc Phase - Neutral :*​ 





 *Arc Phase -PE:*​ 





 *Arc Phase Earth:*​ 
​
 






​ *Arc Neutral - Earth :*​ 






 *Arc Neutral - PE:*​ 






​ *Serial arcs tested by the engineer :*​ *
*






 *I do not want to offend anyone, I'm just asking, thank you for everything Chicken Steve!*​ *Best regards,*​ *FICC-*​


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Arcs, especially at 120 volts are the least of my concerns when it comes to stopping fires. Glowing connections are the real issue, nothing more nothing less.


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Has anyone done lab testing to answer the following fundamental questions?

How many glowing connections, if any, get started without an initial period of arcing to form the high-resistance connection? And will a combination AFCI trip at the start of the formation of the glowing connection?

That first question is fiendishly difficult to answer of course.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> > Has anyone done lab testing to answer the following fundamental questions?
> 
> 
> Would field testing count?
> ...


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> Has anyone done lab testing to answer the following fundamental questions?
> 
> How many glowing connections, if any, get started without an initial period of arcing to form the high-resistance connection? And will a combination AFCI trip at the start of the formation of the glowing connection?
> 
> That first question is fiendishly difficult to answer of course.


Hello  

Not necessarily difficult, here. When the fire expert engineers courts are well on their reports and there are many cases where there are no traces of arcs. I saw the beautiful, detailed photos enlarged microscope, etc ...And if the disaster is major, the experts of manufacurers are also present, of course.... So everyone knows ...:blink:

In fact arcs often arrive at high temperatures (thermal expansion) ... When it's too late ...:whistling2:

*This is the hot spot in the connection which must to be detected! *:devil2:

Best regards

FICC-


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> Has anyone done lab testing to answer the following fundamental questions?
> 
> How many glowing connections, if any, get started without an initial period of arcing to form the high-resistance connection? And will a combination AFCI trip at the start of the formation of the glowing connection?
> 
> That first question is fiendishly difficult to answer of course.


I have reason to believe that most glowing connection produce to arc signature or ground fault current so neither a branch feeder, combination or GFP will stop them.


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> yes & no FrenchOne
> 
> Spencer _'stretches' _the definition , calls an NFPA EE incompetent , and suggests to Mike Holt that a Congressional hearing is in order
> 
> ...


Hello Chicken Steve! 

This means that a differential device became a serial arc detector, only with the operation of the Holy Spirit...? 

If it's the case, we have a colloquial expression for that here...

Best regards

FICC-


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

IAEI 2003


Note the _fine print_......


~CS~


----------



## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> IAEI 2003
> 
> 
> Note the _fine print_......
> ...


Thank you very much for the document 

** Attested with series arc and no grounding conductor in the circuit.

OK. 

I imagine no other conductor (neutral for example) and without any mass .. But someone have tested ? Because here, it's seems do not very well works :whistling2: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLmC5quELrE

It's just a question. 

Best regards,

FICC-


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> circuit *means for detecting an existence of an upstream series arc, and upon detection of said upstream series arc, for signaling said processing means to send said trip signal to said tripping means*; and
> circuit means for detecting an existence of an upstream parallel arc, and upon detection of said upstream parallel arc, for deactivating said processing means so that said processing means does not send said trip signal to said tripping means.


2003


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

French ICC said:


> If it's the case, we have a colloquial expression for that here...


I have a few as well French One, but i don't believe this forum would like it if i typed them here.... ~CS~:no:


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> 2003
> 
> 
> ~CS~




This is a "redefinition" of an electronic RCD, with a new quasi-magic function, detecting series arcs in the same wire...?

What is written is exactly what said to us the engineer, R & D manager of the French manufacturer in 2000. I do not say that the means for this magical function not exists. My colleague and me we had told that this serial arcs detection function in the same wire (without any other wire or ground or otherwise) could not to work reliably.

It seems to me that when the product was launched, advertisements boasted that series arc detection function in the same wire, I have even seen a video of a very clear manufacturer.

Now if this function quasi-magic function does not works, that it remains?

The equivalent of a RCD more or less sensitive, with a parasertenseur, the all sold a fortune ? It's just a question. And the main cause of electrical fires, glowing connections, remains without protection ? It's just an other question... :whistling2:

All is fine...


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Almost always lurkin said:
> 
> 
> > Would field testing count?
> ...


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Almost always lurkin said:


> chicken steve said:
> 
> 
> > In some ways it's better. Post-mortems from the field will be about how glowing connections happen in real life. Lab tests will be about whether an AFCI would trip given the experimenter's favorite way of making a glowing connection.
> ...


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

French ICC said:


> This is a "redefinition" of an electronic RCD, with a new quasi-magic function, detecting series arcs in the same wire...?
> 
> What is written is exactly what said to us the engineer, R & D manager of the French manufacturer in 2000. I do not say that the means for this magical function not exists. My colleague and me we had told that this serial arcs detection function in the same wire (without any other wire or ground or otherwise) could not to work reliably.
> 
> ...


"*a surge **protection"* 

Sorry for the mistake.

Best regards


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> BTW, i am seeing the same names in these links that i've seen now since the debut of the afci....
> 
> ~CS~


Hello Chicken Steve ! 

They are part of?










It just a question 

Best regards

FICC-


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I was doing some research and just have a question. In regards to the French twin and earth current carrying capacity: 


http://img8.bricozone.be/148194e54c78f09ea1.jpg

http://wiki.cannaweed.com/images/b/bb/Section_fusible.png


What IEC installation method are these values based upon? Do they change when the wire is within insulation? Is it true that all terminals in France are rated 70*C? 

http://www.lightwiring.co.uk/lighti...-cables/twin-and-earth-cable-current-ratings/

http://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/General_method_for_cable_sizing


Further, if anyone is curious I found a table that translates American Wire gauges to mm2, thus IEC cables can be compared. Looking closely I see an interesting pattern emerging.


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## French ICC (Mar 21, 2011)

meadow said:


> I was doing some research and just have a question. In regards to the French twin and earth current carrying capacity:
> 
> 
> http://img8.bricozone.be/148194e54c78f09ea1.jpg
> ...


Hello Meadow !  

_Is it true that all terminals in France are rated 70*C? 
_
No. It's depends of the areas of use.
For domestic (homes) in my memory, 50 / 55°C.

Best regards,

FICC-


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

50/55*C, Thanks!  


Ours are rated 60*C with most going to 75*C.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

*French receptacle outlets, sockets, power points.*



frenchelectrican said:


> We don't have switches next to the power points ( receptales or outlets ) and our grounds is always up. ( only in France )
> 
> The only time we will have a switch next to the power point is useally triphase loads or specal requirement we have in Norms de France.
> 
> ...


I really liked the way the cord connection points in Paris were recessed into the cover plate so that the conductive connecting pins were completely out of reach before they made contact with the the energized wipers inside the receptacle. There was simply no way to have anything else in contact with the pins when they were energized.

-- 
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


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