# Any tips to make my panel looks better



## Steve W (Dec 18, 2008)

Looks nice , but I think all the slack is unnecessary I wouldn't leave slack , just terminate right into neutral bar or breaker. 
I like the plastic bushings.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Where's the ground bar?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes, I agree, no need for all the loops. Is that MCAP Cable?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Where's the ground bar?


Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any ground wires either....

Get rid of all that slack, a little bit is fine, too much is unwelcome. Get rid of the zip ties and plastic bushings too, you just wasted like $3 of your boss's money.

What's up with the ground wires/bar, that's bugging me. I can't tell where it's at in this pic.


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## ghostwriter (Nov 1, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any ground wires either....
> 
> Get rid of all that slack, a little bit is fine, too much is unwelcome. Get rid of the zip ties and plastic bushings too, you just wasted like $3 of your boss's money.
> 
> What's up with the ground wires/bar, that's bugging me. I can't tell where it's at in this pic.


Could be MCAP, but AC (BX) cable is still used quite often in the 5 boroughs.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any ground wires either....
> 
> Get rid of all that slack, a little bit is fine, too much is unwelcome. Get rid of the zip ties and plastic bushings too, you just wasted like $3 of your boss's money.
> 
> What's up with the ground wires/bar, that's bugging me. I can't tell where it's at in this pic.


 If that is self grounding cable, like MCAP then there is no need for a ground bar in that panel.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ghostwriter said:


> Could be MCAP, but AC (BX) cable is still used quite often in the 5 boroughs.





Roger123 said:


> If that is self grounding cable, like MCAP then there is no need for a ground bar in that panel.


Okay. Just looked like regular MC and some flex to me.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

looks good. small panel, but i personally like to see some slack where is plenty of room. been in many panels that needed to be rearranged to accomodate changes and that slack sure helps! shoundnt be any reason to need it on the neutrals though.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any ground wires either....
> 
> Get rid of all that slack, a little bit is fine, too much is unwelcome. Get rid of the zip ties and plastic bushings too, you just wasted like $3 of your boss's money.
> 
> What's up with the ground wires/bar, that's bugging me. I can't tell where it's at in this pic.


That's BX cable, no ground wire included.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

get rid of about 1/2 of the slack (some is ok)
lose the zipties looks good though!
label or number the conductors and the breakers it will make for easier identification later


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Get rid of the slack and bushings.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

There must be a ground wire somewhere bonding the enclosure.


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

Why? Could be a sub-panel.

Patrick



wendon said:


> There must be a ground wire somewhere bonding the enclosure.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I wasn't even aware that they sold mc cable without a ground. I've never ordered it, and nobody I've ever worked for has had it on the jobs either.

The only stuff we have without a ground is that really old bx cable in old homes.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Yep, get rid of the zip tied loops. They make me want to vomit. 

Otherwise :thumbsup:

BTW, those bushings might give the inspector the wrong idea. If he winks at you, you'll know why.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Enanosky44 said:


> Any tips to make my panel looks better


Put the cover on it.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Come on now....



pjholguin said:


> Why? Could be a sub-panel.
> 
> Patrick


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> I wasn't even aware that they sold mc cable without a ground. I've never ordered it, and nobody I've ever worked for has had it on the jobs either.


You mean "Mr. I Save Every Penny" hasn't heard of that new Mc cable yet? :blink::laughing:


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I'll show you a few of my panels, I spent a little extra time on this first one. The other two pics are how I usually do them. All from the same job.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Cow said:


> I'll show you a few of my panels, I spent a little extra time on this first one. The other three pics are how I usually do them. All from the same job.


 :thumbup:

Thems purty.

Didnt know they had electricity in Eastern Oregon.:laughing:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> You mean "Mr. I Save Every Penny" hasn't heard of that new Mc cable yet? :blink::laughing:


 If you worry about the pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves.

And no, I haven't heard or seen this stuff. Is it new, or just a northeast thing?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> If you worry about the pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves.
> 
> And no, I haven't heard or seen this stuff. Is it new, or just a northeast thing?


It's been out for a few years now, and as far as I know it's available across the country.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> It's been out for a few years now, and as far as I know it's available across the country.


Used it? What are talking about in price difference?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Used it? What are talking about in price difference?


MCAP is a little cheaper than MC but the connectors are more money
But it well worth it for the time you save, you are working with 1/3 the wire


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Used it? What are talking about in price difference?


Here it is, ask your supply house about it

http://www.southwire.com/products/MCAPTypeMCAllPurpose.htm


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> MCAP is a little cheaper than MC but the connectors are more money
> But it well worth it for the time you save, you are working with 1/3 the wire


Most standard MC connectors are listed for use with MC-Ap now.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Used it? What are talking about in price difference?


Haven't used it yet, but I've been told it's the same price.


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## karl_r (Nov 5, 2012)

Cow said:


> I'll show you a few of my panels, I spent a little extra time on this first one. The other two pics are how I usually do them. All from the same job.


are you allowed to bundle wires like that??:no:
otherwise nice job


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

karl_r said:


> are you allowed to bundle wires like that??:no: otherwise nice job


Where do you see bundling?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> Most standard MC connectors are listed for use with MC-Ap now.


What do you mean by standard? 
I am pretty sure they have to be the push in connectors, (no lock nuts, or screw/clamp)
I only use the Arlington ones that are rated MCAP


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> What do you mean by standard?
> I am pretty sure they have to be the push in connectors, (no lock nuts, or screw/clamp)
> I only use the Arlington ones that are rated MCAP


There are locknut and screw/clamp types that are rated for MC-Ap. If you have an Arlington book, check out the cable/fitting compatibility chart. You'll be surprised.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> There are locknut and screw/clamp types that are rated for MC-Ap. If you have an Arlington book, check out the cable/fitting compatibility chart. You'll be surprised.



I only use MCAP for new work as I have been told you cannot use the MC yoke in a old work box. Have you heard the same thing


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> I only use MCAP for new work as I have been told you cannot use the MC yoke in a old work box. Have you heard the same thing


No, in fact, the old work MC cable boxes are stamped "MCI" indicating they're suitable for use with MC-Ap.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

electricalwiz said:


> I am pretty sure they have to be the push in connectors,





electricalwiz said:


> I only use MCAP for new work as I have been told you cannot use the MC yoke in a old work box.


 
It sounds like you are mixing up the requirements for AC cable needing anti-short bushings.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> No, in fact, the old work MC cable boxes are stamped "MCI" indicating they're suitable for use with MC-Ap.


Really? I will have to look, where is the stamp at. Talking the MFR reps they tell me I cant use old work boxes


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> Really? I will have to look, where is the stamp at. Talking the MFR reps they tell me I cant use old work boxes


It's stamped right on the clamp itself.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Shock-Therapy said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Thems purty.
> 
> Didnt know they had electricity in Eastern Oregon.:laughing:


They do but it's not very reliable because the Indians keep attacking their wagon train every night.


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## Enanosky44 (Jul 27, 2013)

ghostwriter said:


> Could be MCAP, but AC (BX) cable is still used quite often in the 5 boroughs.



Hey man thanks for taking ur time to answer. Yes I think the same the loop I left was little too much left some slack in the ceiling just in case I had to move the panel or things like that which I just found out I have to install a bigger panel so that mean I'm saved by the bell.... The zip ties believe it or not it looks stupid to me, but two of the inspectors started arguing that how do we know which neutral is which, in some other panel and he said to my boss in front of me that we need to identified the pair in the braker like which neutral is for which circuit.,. NEVER HEARD THAT.. But so far we been passing inspection. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Enanosky44 said:


> he said to my boss in front of me that we need to identified the pair in the braker like which neutral is for which circuit


 
You have to identify which neutral is with which hots on a MWBC where it enters the panel.

You don't have to do it with cable.

Ill look it up and find the reference.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Here it is.

210.4 (D)

* Grouping.​*​​​​The ungrounded and grounded circuit conductors​
of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped​ by cable ties or similar means in at least one location within​ the panelboard or other point of origination.​_ Exception: The requirement for grouping shall not apply if​ the circuit enters from a cable or raceway unique to the​ circuit that makes the grouping obvious.​_* ​*​​​​​


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## Enanosky44 (Jul 27, 2013)

GUYS THIS PANEL AS U CAN SEE ITS 8/16 really small panel, this will b for small gym where there is only 2 treadmills, and like 8 small tv for the stationary equipment... The light fixtures is on a 20A breaker there's a total of 12 receptacles which is 6 in a 20A and the other 6 in another 20A
The two treadmills are dedicated 20a breaker for each 1...
Then we have one 30A 2pole for the AC UNIT. 
THE PANEL BREAKER IS a 2 pole 40A... My question is is it necessary to change the service and make it 60A 2phase? Or that 2 phase 40a is good enough? And please I would like a good answer so I could understand the reason


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Enanosky44 said:


> GUYS THIS PANEL AS U CAN SEE ITS 8/16 really small panel, this will b for small gym where there is only 2 treadmills, and like 8 small tv for the stationary equipment... The light fixtures is on a 20A breaker there's a total of 12 receptacles which is 6 in a 20A and the other 6 in another 20A
> The two treadmills are dedicated 20a breaker for each 1...
> Then we have one 30A 2pole for the AC UNIT.
> THE PANEL BREAKER IS a 2 pole 40A... My question is is it necessary to change the service and make it 60A 2phase? Or that 2 phase 40a is good enough? And please I would like a good answer so I could understand the reason
> ...


To me, that's pushing it for a 40 amp sub. Others here may not feel the same, and of course, it's never all pulling at the same time so it actually may be alright. BUT....If it were my job, and my risks, I'd pull at least a 60 amp breaker/feeder, if not something a little higher than that.

I know when it comes to installing small sub panels, you can get away with installing something small, since the loads won't be pulling at the same time. But, sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution, especially if ít would be a huge pain to change later. JMO.


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## octanevane (Aug 23, 2012)

Just a few.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Why is it every commercial guy loves to ty-wrap and bundle? Not knocking it I just find it funny here (at least) do a panel in Resi. like that they bitch about bundling but commercial no issue.
Admit it you strictly commercial guys have stock in Ty-wraps....


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## octanevane (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes I will admit we do use a crap ton of Ty wraps.


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

octanevane said:


> Yes I will admit we do use a crap ton of Ty wraps.


Me too :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Octane, why the striped hots? I'll have neutrals striped when I need to keep track of them but have never had my hots striped before.

Also, you should give the Knipex ***** a shot. I used to use those blue handled Kleins exclusively until I tried the Knipex. Now there's no going back!

Panels look good!


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## octanevane (Aug 23, 2012)

Cow said:


> Octane, why the striped hots? I'll have neutrals striped when I need to keep track of them but have never had my hots striped before.
> 
> Also, you should give the Knipex ***** a shot. I used to use those blue handled Kleins exclusively until I tried the Knipex. Now there's no going back!
> 
> Panels look good!



Thanks COW. On that job for the HRs we were using barreled wire and pulling 2 full boats in each pipe. Solid phase colors went with same color, single pin stripped neutral and stripped phase colors had double stripped neutrals. "If that makes any sense"

I may look into those knipex *****, your not the first person to speak good words about them.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

FWIW I never ty-wrap, its to time consuming and come moving/adding a circuit is B.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

And yes folks, that's type MC cable that has a bonding strip in the armor that does the grounding. Saves copper. NY has been doing it like that for decades.

BTW, I could be wrong but that CH-BR might not be rated for NY... I know they have restrictions on panel boards. Often they need to be NYC approved, and 200amp panels are often limited to 100amps, ect, ect. Id double check.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> And yes folks, that's type MC cable that has a bonding strip in the armor that does the grounding. Saves copper. NY has been doing it like that for decades.
> 
> BTW, I could be wrong but that CH-BR might not be rated for NY... I know they have restrictions on panel boards. Often they need to be NYC approved, and 200amp panels are often limited to 100amps, ect, ect. Id double check.


I'm pretty sure the small print says it's NYC approved. I've seen it on CH panels before.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Enanosky44 said:


> Hey guys I'm installing panel, I seen some really good clean, and neat panels... Any pics u want to share so I could see
> Any tips I have this one done
> View attachment 39319
> 
> ...


Spray the insides with Mercruiser black enamel paint so it doesn't show so much.:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Here it is.
> 
> 210.4 (D)
> 
> ...


This section makes sense to me but do all of you...out there, do it?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't like too many cable ties but a few is ok.

Label all wires including the neutrals


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

eddy current said:


> I don't like too many cable ties but a few is ok. Label all wires including the neutrals


I used to number my neutrals until I started using striped neutrals.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

very pretty, but whats the point of the curls on the nuetrals? takes up more space and time


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

You know at some point along the way, I just completely stopped caring about making a panel look good. There was no reward, benefit, or prize for taking the time to make everything look nice and neat..so it simply was no longer important to me.

First off, I was *amazed* at how much faster I could make them up. Second, I was amazed at how much importance I had put on making a panel look nice and neat in the past, and I kicked myself for caring so much about something that didn't matter at all in the scheme of things. 

I'd say this was a good turning point in my life, and it pushed me to find and change other things in my work where I was too focused on something that didn't matter.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> You know at some point along the way, I just completely stopped caring about making a panel look good. There was no reward, benefit, or prize for taking the time to make everything look nice and neat..so it simply was no longer important to me. First off, I was amazed at how much faster I could make them up. Second, I was amazed at how much importance I had put on making a panel look nice and neat in the past, and I kicked myself for caring so much about something that didn't matter at all in the scheme of things. I'd say this was a good turning point in my life, and it pushed me to find and change other things in my work where I was too focused on something that didn't matter.


Not caring doesn't have to go hand in hand with not looking good. There should be a balance between speed and quality. I can take the time and make a panel look exquisite if I want but you're right- it doesn't benefit anyone. I have a system where I'm very efficient and quick with my panels, and they look good, because I'm good at my job. There's really no excuse for a dog turd end product


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Not caring doesn't have to go hand in hand with not looking good. There should be a balance between speed and quality. I can take the time and make a panel look exquisite if I want but you're right- it doesn't benefit anyone. I have a system where I'm very efficient and quick with my panels, and they look good, because I'm good at my job. There's really no excuse for a dog turd end product


The ugliest dog turd panel works just as good as a decent panel and a pretty panel.  Electricity doesn't care.

Only difference is the first guy finished before the other two.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> The ugliest dog turd panel works just as good as a decent panel and a pretty panel.  Electricity doesn't care. Only difference is the first guy finished before the other two.


Can you make up a panel quickly and still make it look good? Or do you play a game with yourself to see how fast/ugly you can make it? Why does all quality of work have to go out the window just because you're always thinking about the next job?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Can you make up a panel quickly and still make it look good?
> 
> 
> > Yes. Everywhere I've ever worked wanted this.
> ...


Good question. The same reason McDonald's stopped caring about making a good hamburger and started worrying about selling 1000 hamburgers.

I don't know buddy. Money drives everything, and all anybody cares about now is cheap and fast.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> The ugliest dog turd panel works just as good as a decent panel and a pretty panel.  Electricity doesn't care.
> 
> Only difference is the first guy finished before the other two.


Honestly I would be embarrassed to have the next electrician open up something I made a mess of. You don't have to be anal about things but when you let workmanship slide that's when I draw the line with our guys. It's no different than installing out of plum conduit, boxes, or device plates. It's all workmanship.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I couldn't figure out how to chop up your post. Hopefully you can still make it out, even if it looks like a 5 year old typed it. :laughing:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Good question. The same reason McDonald's stopped caring about making a good hamburger and started worrying about selling 1000 hamburgers. I don't know buddy. Money drives everything, and all anybody cares about now is cheap and fast.


I'm not dogging on you I just got the impression you didn't care if your panels look like crap. Maybe what you meant is you don't care if they don't look pretty.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> I'm not dogging on you I just got the impression you didn't care if your panels look like crap. Maybe what you meant is you don't care if they don't look pretty.


Sure. That's probably a better way to put it anyway.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Hrm. Got into the wrong thread.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

The amount of time it would take to make matching sweeping curls on every conductor would be ridiculous. I'll say that myself. Better be self employed.


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## Ontario (Sep 9, 2013)

I usually leave slack in case they may want to upgrade their panel in the future and they may want to move it elsewhere. 

I think the most annoying thing is having to replace a Commander and the people who installed it a decade ago decided to make it look pretty rather than functional.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> The ugliest dog turd panel works just as good as a decent panel and a pretty panel.  Electricity doesn't care.
> 
> Only difference is the first guy finished before the other two.


The owners son would always say "pretty don't pay the bills".


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> You know at some point along the way, I just completely stopped caring about making a panel look good. There was no reward, benefit, or prize for taking the time to make everything look nice and neat..so it simply was no longer important to me. First off, I was amazed at how much faster I could make them up. Second, I was amazed at how much importance I had put on making a panel look nice and neat in the past, and I kicked myself for caring so much about something that didn't matter at all in the scheme of things. I'd say this was a good turning point in my life, and it pushed me to find and change other things in my work where I was too focused on something that didn't matter.


 I feel the the same way...I think I have OCD and one of the steps I took was to stop obsessing over neat panels.I care about connections first then neatness...


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## mr4160volts (Nov 26, 2011)

*Ground bar*

Speaking of ground bars, generally speaking are GB's not required on service entrances?


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## nola electrician (Mar 3, 2015)

Thank you DAWGS i have been screaming that in my head workmanship sells the next job and the next job pays the bills it doesn't matter how fast you do it if its ugly chances are you wont have the next job to jump on take care of thos job you are on and the next job will be there when you get there and you will have fewer problem call backs and more repeat business


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