# Welder Issues



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

VeteranElectricmn said:


> This welder has 3/0 copper and a 200amp single phase 208v breaker.
> 
> When in operations the wires slap in the conduit as well as lighting flickers a bit... any ideas as to what could be the cause of this as well as a possible resolution?
> 
> ...


sounds like a ground fault to me but not a good enough path back to trip the breaker or to short of a time constant to trip the breaker


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Is it a underground conduit by chance ?


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

Overhead conduit...

Length of run is around 150ft


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

I may put a data recorder on it and see what that may reveal


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Says it’s 220v and your running at 208 so that could be a problem. Unluckily. I’m leaning towards ground fault. Unhook the machine and Meg the wires


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

That was an assumption of mine as well. I need to look the manual up.. it is new machine and apparently i was told the machine has a built in buckboost for 220 operation... i have not verified that however.. yet


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

To me it seems like with it being 1phase it has to be a ground fault becuase the vibration of the wire in conduit is caused by lenz law basically 2 magnets pushing against each other and the only way to have that on 1 phase would be ground fault. Be it in your wiring or the machine. Could be I squared r loss too and that’s amplified by being undervolted increasing the resistance


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

This is a service call i need to address this week. Another shop had installed this. I was given the explanation...

Well x shop installed it (big union shop in mn) youd think they did it correctly.. my reply was just remember... everyone in med school are all called a doctor upon graduation despite being 1st or last in the class...


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

VeteranElectricmn said:


> This is a service call i need to address this week. Another shop had installed this. I was given the explanation...
> 
> Well x shop installed it (big union shop in mn) youd think they did it correctly.. my reply was just remember... everyone in med school are all called a doctor upon graduation despite being 1st or last in the class...


biggest screw ups i find is from "big union shops" so im not too shocked.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

VeteranElectricmn said:


> This is a service call i need to address this week. Another shop had installed this. I was given the explanation...
> 
> Well x shop installed it (big union shop in mn) youd think they did it correctly.. my reply was just remember... everyone in med school are all called a doctor upon graduation despite being 1st or last in the class...


Let us know what you find


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

Thanks for all the input... i will post the resolution i find


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> biggest screw ups i find is from "big union shops" so im not too shocked.


That’s crazy because I clean up **** from non union shops all the time


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> That’s crazy because I clean up **** from non union shops all the time


Wanna know a secret?we all do. turns out nobody is perfect lol


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## VeteranElectricmn (Jan 6, 2022)

Union or non i dont think it matters... its like saying before you get married "shes different" hate to break it to you. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Its a big bloody spot welder and im amazed you can run that on single phase. Huge power draw can make the wires jump.



Equations and Calculations related to Resistance Welding - Spot Weld, Inc.



The 208 might not be a problem as you may be able to change the taps on the transformer.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

VeteranElectricmn said:


> Union or non i dont think it matters... its like saying before you get married "shes different" hate to break it to you. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME


yup.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> yup.


Agreed I don’t know why it had to go there in the first place


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Agreed I don’t know why it had to go there in the first place


he brought it up! dont be mad at me.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Not uncommon to get conductor movement from high inrush. 

Twisted conductors and sometimes going through some tight back to back 90's can help reduce/eliminate the movement.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Given that it's a spot welder, I'd say it's normal.

I've heard wires jump in pipe when A/C units start up.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

How did you determine a 200A breaker for that machine?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> he brought it up! dont be mad at me.


Not in the manner u did tho I will continue to be upset


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Not in the manner u did tho I will continue to be upset


Poppycock


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

VeteranElectricmn said:


> This welder has 3/0 copper and a 200amp single phase 208v breaker.
> 
> When in operations the wires slap in the conduit as well as lighting flickers a bit... any ideas as to what could be the cause of this as well as a possible resolution?
> 
> ...


The wires are moving because of the amount of current flowing. Wires carrying current in opposite directions will push themselves apart. If anything, larger conductors will allow more current to flow.

Bus bars can be bent if enough current flows during a fault. That's why cables should be lashed inside gear.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You didn’t watch the video about current not flowing, did you?


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

backstay said:


> You didn’t watch the video about current not flowing, did you?


I didn't see a video posted. Maybe I'm ******** lol 😆

I thought the problem was the wires slapping around in the pipe and the lights dimming


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Slay301 said:


> To me it seems like with it* being 1phase it has to be a ground fault* becuase the vibration of the wire in conduit is caused by lenz law basically 2 magnets pushing against each other and the only way to have that on 1 phase would be ground fault. Be it in your wiring or the machine. Could be I squared r loss too and that’s amplified by being undervolted increasing the resistance


I am not sure about that, if the current on the two wires is in opposite directions, they push apart, right? The two phase conductors are 120* apart but the current in the conductors is still equal and opposite at any time, the magnitude of the current is still alternating on a sine wave.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

splatz said:


> I am not sure about that, if the current on the two wires is in opposite directions, they push apart, right? The two phase conductors are 120* apart but the current in the conductors is still equal and opposite at any time, the magnitude of the current is still alternating on a sine wave.


You’re right, when current flows through a conductor, it’s a magnet. When it’s on AC current it’s going to move around and rattle in a conduit that’s not full. 

Watch loosely coiled welding leads hanging while someone is stick welding with a high current. They jump and move quite a bit.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

splatz said:


> I am not sure about that, if the current on the two wires is in opposite directions, they push apart, right? The two phase conductors are 120* apart but the current in the conductors is still equal and opposite at any time, the magnitude of the current is still alternating on a sine wave.


That’s right I forgot he feed it with 208 sp so they are 120degrees I stand corrected


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## CWL (Jul 7, 2020)

I can't believe nobody has pointed out the obvious solution. Wires jumping around in the conduit just means the conduit is too big. Smaller conduit = no room for the wire to move. Simple 

Seriously though. Isn't a spot welder basically a fault by design?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

CWL said:


> I can't believe nobody has pointed out the obvious solution. Wires jumping around in the conduit just means the conduit is too big. Smaller conduit = no room for the wire to move. Simple
> 
> Seriously though. Isn't a spot welder basically a fault by design?



NAILED IT !!


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## Mbit (Feb 28, 2020)

When I used to do a lot of primary injection you could get the cables to push each other apart a good foot, foot and a half.

When we were maxed out on current on a particular setup, twisting the cables would sometimes give us that little bit of extra current to hit the pickup we were shooting for.


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## Nomad860 (May 1, 2016)

Cables with a large current flow will move. Sometimes quite a bit.


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