# Freezer tripping gfci AGAIN



## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

I know this is suppose to be an appliance guys issue. But does any one have a name of a 'good' manufacturer that sells commercial freezers that 'compatiable' with gfci breakers??

Before the questions are asked, 

Yes it was megged, and yes it was replaced with a new unit, and yes we have went back and forth with this 'manufacturer'. and Yes we checked the circuit, it is dedicated, and there's NO shared neutral or miswiring. we even megged the line from the panel all good. This is on going issue. it only happens periodically, and we suspect its the 'mullion heaters. I believe those 'defrost' heaters are an issue. too much leakage

Short of 'hard wiring these in the commecial kitchen, not sure what else to do. 

.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

What was replaced, the entire freezer or the compressor? And what size is this freezer that it's being plugged into a gfi? We're not talking a walk in so what's the voltage and the amps of the unit/compressor/fan? 

Whats' the refrigerant type and charge? Hard start kit installed? What's it doing exactly? Is she freezing up or is she running normally and just tripping the gfi upon start up? 

Why is this thing plugged into a gfi in the first place?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Traulsen is probably the best brand of reach-in coolers and freezers.

Did you switch brands of GFCI yet?


Roadhouse, it's required to be GFCI protected in a commercial kitchen.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

MD, I literally just called my master electrician bud ( I always do whenever I'm on this site for info  ) and he said the same thing you did concerning commercial equipment at 120v.

He also said that the gfi could be removed from the equation altogether and hard wire the freezer directly to the panel using a gfi breaker, holds better than gfi's.

Sound right?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roadhouse said:


> He also said that the gfi could be removed from the equation altogether and hard wire the freezer directly to the panel using a gfi breaker, holds better than gfi's.
> 
> Sound right?


No. There's two problems with that. Few reach-in freezers are rated for direct wire. That's a special order reach-in. You can't compliantly direct wire a reach-in that was originally supplied with a factory cord.

Secondly, there in ZERO evidence that a GFCI breaker provides better service than a point-of-use GFCI receptacle. The same technology is inside both. Matter of fact, with the added branch circuit on the load side of a GFCI breaker, I could make a fine argument that you add even more possibilities to trip the GFCI protection.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

Wait, this is a gfi breaker. I thought is was a gfi plug. Make certain the nuetral isn't being shared but dedicated or has that already been said too? Ack.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Roadhouse said:


> MD, I literally just called my master electrician bud ( I always do whenever I'm on this site for info  ) and he said the same thing you did concerning commercial equipment at 120v.
> 
> He also said that the gfi could be removed from the equation altogether and hard wire the freezer directly to the panel using a gfi breaker, holds better than gfi's.
> 
> Sound right?


 It depends on what is causing the G F I to trip!

If you remove the G F I receptacle and install a G F I breaker, and it still trips, you are no better off. Try to find the cause!


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

I get what you're saying, he did ask what brand and how old this unit was and I told him I don't know and he then began rambling on of the different aspects, I think he was trying to say something about what you just said about compliance, and wouldn't stop and so I hung up on him.  

I'm wondering if the breaker is sized properly.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> It depends on what is causing the G F I to trip!
> 
> If you remove the G F I receptacle and install a G F I breaker, and it still trips, you are no better off. Try to find the cause!


 
Yes sir, I agree with you completely. Always there's a problem with why switches trip so detect that and fix it. It's the same in hvacr, like with roll out switches (the flame literally rolls out of it's compartment) or high limit switches (too hot in the cabinet) that will trip the unit or shut off a component or end a signal for heat so no more heat can be produced but that's not the problem, the safety switch was only doing it's job.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roadhouse said:


> I'm wondering if the breaker is sized properly.


That wouldn't matter. The breaker isn't tripping. The GFCI receptacle is. The problem is on the load side of the GFCI receptacle.

Mullion heaters are a popular suspect, as is the hermetic or semi-hermetic compressor motor. The start cap is another suspect, since it seem that if they get the starting phase angle too much out of wack, it plays hell with the GFCI. I'm not sure I understand why.

The OP talks about potentially getting the manufacturer involved. This must be done, but it's going to turn into a monumental finger pointing event. The OP really needs to catch the nonconforming event that trips the GFCI on a PQA or recording scope of some sort in order to prove to the manufacturer that it's their equipment -OR- meg all parts of the equipment and not just the things the megger can "reach" with the cord unplugged when megging from the attachment cord.

Brother: Can you post the brand and model of the reach-in? I'd like to see if I can scare up a print of the thing to puzzle on.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That wouldn't matter. The breaker isn't tripping. The GFCI receptacle is. The problem is on the load side of the GFCI receptacle.
> 
> Mullion heaters are a popular suspect, as is the hermetic or semi-hermetic compressor motor. The start cap is another suspect, since it seem that if they get the starting phase angle too much out of wack, it plays hell with the GFCI. I'm not sure I understand why.
> 
> ...


 
That's why I asked if a hard start kit was installed for the compressor as I think the compressor is tripping the gfi when it's kicking on, the usual. 

5-2-1, common start run.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roadhouse said:


> That's why I asked if a hard start kit was installed for the compressor as I think the compressor is tripping the gfi when it's kicking on, the usual.
> 
> 5-2-1, common start run.


With refrigeration equipment that trips GFCI's, the startup is often what trips the GFCI, but it's 99% of the time the root cause will be from failing motor windings. In this case, it seems that the OP is dealing with brand new equipment. 

The presence or absence of a hard start would not distract me in my troubleshooting process, unless the breaker was tripping on overload. The existence of a hard start kit wouldn't normally concern me if I was troubleshooting a tripping GFCI issue.

By the way, a relay with 5-2-1 on it IS NOT a hard start kit. It could be, but every CSIR commercial hermetic compressor will have a potential relay. That's how you kick out the start cap. It's not a hard start kit. You can't have an end switch on a hermetic motor, so you need a potential relay. Mars, and all the copycats, labels their terminals 5, 2, and 1.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

A hard start kit is pretty much another capacitor. It will store enough electricity in it to start that compressor without having to pull amps from the panel so the need for that start up amp draw which is greater than running amerage will be in the hard start kit. Prevents tripping.


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## Mrkbalon4 (Mar 30, 2009)

Maybe this is obvious but I hope you at least replaced the GFCI receptacle with a new one. A lot of the older ones tripped easier in commercial kitchens. Moisture is another cause. If the freezer receptacle is low on the wall or even on the floor this can be a problem when the kitchen is mopped.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roadhouse said:


> A hard start kit is pretty much another capacitor. It will store enough electricity in it to start that compressor without having to pull amps from the panel so the need for that start up amp draw which is greater than running amerage will be in the hard start kit. Prevents tripping.


Yeah, but in this case the motor is not tripping the breaker. The GFCI is what's tripping. GFCI's do not trip on overload. Only ground faults.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

Eh eh, hard starts are very commonly used in brand new/replacement a/c systems, add ons.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

brother said:


> I know this is suppose to be an appliance guys issue. But does any one have a name of a 'good' manufacturer that sells commercial freezers that 'compatiable' with gfci breakers??
> 
> Before the questions are asked,
> 
> .


I will give you this, pretty complete pre-testing to avoid all the WELL DID YOU.....

As for my input, if you were local I'd love to hook up a recorder to the circuit. In lieu of that, see Marc's answers.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, but in this case the motor is not tripping the breaker. The GFCI is what's tripping. GFCI's do not trip on overload. Only ground faults.


 
Oh, so the compressor would have to be grounding in order for the ground fault indicator to trip? And this being a new compressor in a new freezer that is highly doubtful. Am I on the right track?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Roadhouse said:


> Oh, so the compressor would have to be grounding in order for the ground fault indicator to trip? And this being a new compressor in a new freezer that is highly doubtful. Am I on the right track?


Uh, no. Could be anything grounding out. Not just the compressor. 

And, yes, GFCI's only trip when there's more than 6ma of current imbalance between hot and neutral. If there's "missing current", it trips. Overloads never trip GFCI receptacles, unless the overload event is accompanied by a ground fault (it sometimes is, as would be the case with failing windings in a locked up compressor: locked rotor amps plus ground leakage)


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Uh, no. Could be anything grounding out. Not just the compressor.
> 
> And, yes, GFCI's only trip when there's more than 6ma of current imbalance between hot and neutral. If there's "missing current", it trips. Overloads never trip GFCI receptacles, unless the overload event is accompanied by a ground fault (it sometimes is, as would be the case with failing windings in a locked up compressor: locked rotor amps plus ground leakage)


 
I meant in the terms of speaking about a compressor tripping a ground fault, but I know what you mean.


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

Roadhouse said:


> Eh eh, hard starts are very commonly used in brand new/replacement a/c systems, add ons.


Now that I'm fully awake, hard start kits are used in reciprocating and not scroll compressors unless the scroll is dying of course, than a hard start can lengthen it's life but that is the only reason a hard start will be needed for a scroll compressor.

Reciprocating compressor with txv's: Thermostatic expansion valve shuts the refrigerant flow off and the refrigerant does not equalize with a reciprocating compressor thus too much load (refrigerant load) for the starting motor torque of the compressor to start (during cycles) thus the need for brand new recipricating compressors to have hard starts which usually amplify starting power by up to 500%, a few brands even more than that.

Heat pumps.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



MDShunk said:


> Yeah, but in this case the motor is not tripping the breaker. The GFCI is what's tripping. GFCI's do not trip on overload. Only ground faults.



I slightly disagree with that about overloads. I mean I know they are designed for that, but I just had a call that a GFCI was tripping on the xmas tree circuit. I went there and it did trip in front of me. Then reset, then tripped a min or so later. Turns out it had about 22 amps running on a 15 amp circuit through a 15 amp GFCI. It was also brown and the plastic was deforming from melting. In this case I think the overload did something to the circuitry kicking it?? 

Sound possible?? 

We got rid of the 150Watt Halogen (put in 75W) in the strings and put in a new gfci and worked fine.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Cletis said:


> I slightly disagree with that about overloads. I mean I know they are designed for that, but I just had a call that a GFCI was tripping on the xmas tree circuit. I went there and it did trip in front of me. Then reset, then tripped a min or so later. Turns out it had about 22 amps running on a 15 amp circuit through a 15 amp GFCI. It was also brown and the plastic was deforming from melting. In this case I think the overload did something to the circuitry kicking it??
> 
> Sound possible??
> 
> We got rid of the 150Watt Halogen (put in 75W) in the strings and put in a new gfci and worked fine.


Yeah, but a thermally damaged device can not be counted on to operate properly.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Cletis said:


> I slightly disagree with that about overloads. I mean I know they are designed for that, but I just had a call that a GFCI was tripping on the xmas tree circuit. I went there and it did trip in front of me. Then reset, then tripped a min or so later. Turns out it had about 22 amps running on a 15 amp circuit through a 15 amp GFCI. It was also brown and the plastic was deforming from melting. In this case I think the overload did something to the circuitry kicking it??
> 
> Sound possible??
> 
> We got rid of the 150Watt Halogen (put in 75W) in the strings and put in a new gfci and worked fine.


You can't say the GFCI didn't trip on current imbalance. In the case of an overloaded circuit, the things on the load side of that GFCI (if electrically leaky) will leak more in proportion to how much they are loaded. When you lower the load, you also lower the amount of leakage current. That is to say, if a circuit has a 4ma leak at 10 amps, it will have a 8ma leak at 20 amps.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And an overload circuit with the added heat can and will damage the insulation.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> And an overload circuit with the added heat can and will damage the insulation.


Which is a big reason why I think many people mistakenly believe that GFCI's can somehow trip on overload.


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> That wouldn't matter. The breaker isn't tripping. The GFCI receptacle is. The problem is on the load side of the GFCI receptacle.
> 
> Mullion heaters are a popular suspect, as is the hermetic or semi-hermetic compressor motor. The start cap is another suspect, since it seem that if they get the starting phase angle too much out of wack, it plays hell with the GFCI. I'm not sure I understand why.
> 
> ...


 
Ive been busy today, sorry for the delay. Here is the model # G12010 its a 115volt freezer 9.5 amps. I will answer the others questions when I have a chance.


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## sfeyelectric (Dec 31, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Uh, no. Could be anything grounding out. Not just the compressor.
> 
> And, yes, GFCI's only trip when there's more than 6ma of current imbalance between hot and neutral.


Well anywhere between 4 and 6ma


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

there is some 30ma gfci breaker , this may solve the problem, gfci outlets are often too sensitive for that kind of loads


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

oliquir said:


> there is some 30ma gfci breaker , this may solve the problem, gfci outlets are often too sensitive for that kind of loads


No, no, no... You need to find that short!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

oliquir said:


> there is some 30ma gfci breaker , this may solve the problem, gfci outlets are often too sensitive for that kind of loads


Yeah, but they are for equipment protection not personnel protection. There is a difference between a GFCI (6mA trip) and a GFP (30mA trip). 

The fix to a tripping GFCI is not replacing it with a GFP, doing so is a lame half-assed "fix".


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah, but they are for equipment protection not personnel protection. There is a difference between a GFCI (6mA trip) and a GFP (30mA trip).
> 
> The fix to a tripping GFCI is not replacing it with a GFP, doing so is a lame half-assed "fix".


Correct - the 30mA trip level is for equipment protection, Square-D calls theirs a GFEP (Ground Fault Equipment Protector).

We use them on outdoor heat-trace circuits used for roof drains and the like (in areas not normally accessible).

One other note about GFCIs - you will have capacitive leakage current on long feeders which can cause nuisance tripping of GFCI circuit breakers - example, trip level is 5mA, but maybe 2mA of capacitive leakage on the feeder, so actual leak current required to trip is only 3mA. Using a GFCI receptacle will minimize this issue, as it is closer to the load and doesn't see the leakage current on its upstream feeder.

There is definitely something to inductive loads tricking GFCI circuitry - I have an electric shaver (2-wire, so no ground to leak current away to) that will trip one GFCI receptacle about 50% of the time, right when it is turned on.


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

*Grrrr*

Grrrr!! Well, this 'issue' with the freezer has stopped. Not because the 'problem' was found, but because one of the other guys decided to go ahead an put a 'NON' gfci breaker inside the panel, so now the 120 volt 'pendant' twist lock cord cap/receptacle doesn't have gfci protection. Remember this is a kitchen and this 2008 rules apply. 

I did have a talk with him and he feels since its a 'twist lock' its less likely to be a risk seeing how alot of freezers are not compatable gfci. And also some of the freezers that are on 'existing' circuits that are not gfci one more wont make a difference. All I can say to him is it is a 'code' requirement even though I agree it may be less of a risk on twist locks. 

GRRR is all I can say and I tell him its on his head now. I have more important battles to fight! It just seems like a 'cop' out to put it on a breaker that is non gfci protected. There is no gfci protection for this new 120v 20 amp circuit that was installed for the freezer. 

Oh and before you ask the question, Yes I did show him in the code NEC 2008 where its required for commercial kitchens. 

Thanks for all the input and help though.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I recently wired a whole basement of a cafe, no GFCI for freezers. We just can't afford needless tripping.... I also used three wire feeds with no handle ties. I love my job and love it more when it's cash.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> I did have a talk with him and he feels since its a 'twist lock' its less likely to be a risk seeing how alot of freezers are not compatable gfci.


This is absolute BS. The UL standard for refrigeration equipment requires that all refrigeration equipment have a leakage current far less than the 4 to 6 milliamp range that will trip a Class A GFCI device. The idea that some modern fridges and freezers aren't compatible with GFCI protection is utter nonsense.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I recently wired a whole basement of a cafe, no GFCI for freezers. We just can't afford needless tripping.... I also used three wire feeds with no handle ties. I love my job and love it more when it's cash.


Was the basement considered a kitchen according to the NEC definition?

The requirement for GFCI protection in 210.8(B)(2) applies to kitchens so if the freezers are not located in the kitchen then GFCI protection is most likely not required unless one of the other sections in 210.8(B) apply.

If it was a kitchen I would not want the liability of not providing the required GFCI protection.

Chris


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Was the basement considered a kitchen according to the NEC definition?
> 
> The requirement for GFCI protection in 210.8(B)(2) applies to kitchens so if the freezers are not located in the kitchen then GFCI protection is most likely not required unless one of the other sections in 210.8(B) apply.
> 
> ...


I'd say it was in the room adjacent to the kitchen area. I choose not to GFCI any fixed freezers/refrigerators because the area is plagued with frequent power outages. My customer can stand to loose thousands if a power outage trips a GFI and it goes unoticed. I'm very selective about the latest codes these day since much of it is profiteering
, personal interest and corporate interest. I explain the code requirements and the pros and cons of them before a customer can make a descision on which way to take and some ways require cash with no paper and others, checks with reciepts.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

So you have a GFCI that is tripping, presumably a ground fault in an appliance. Lets go ahead and remove gfci protection and leave that ground fault. So the next person to come in contact with the freezer gets blasted. Wheres the logic?

When the smoke alarms go off do you disconnect them or put out the fire?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> So you have a GFCI that is tripping, presumably a ground fault in an appliance. Lets go ahead and remove gfci protection and leave that ground fault. So the next person to come in contact with the freezer gets blasted. Wheres the logic?
> 
> When the smoke alarms go off do you disconnect them or put out the fire?


I've had them trip in the building when power gets restored. Just because the NEC mandates it does'nt mean it's useful. Read my post thouroghly, says nothing about the units tripping a GFI, only the constant outages.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I've had them trip in the building when power gets restored. Just because the NEC mandates it does'nt mean it's useful. Read my post thouroghly, says nothing about the units tripping a GFI, only the constant outages.


and I am not referring to you but the "other electrician" that removed GFCI protection in a ground fault situation


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> and I am not referring to you but the "other electrician" that removed GFCI protection in a ground fault situation


Sorry....


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

I_get_shocked said:


> and I am not referring to you but the "other electrician" that removed GFCI protection in a ground fault situation


 
I feel the same way, This is even after 'we' had went back and forth with the manufacturer about the design of their units. But Like I said, I have more important battles to fight. This is on 'him' now.


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