# cutting in recessed cans



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There are hole saws but I use an adjustable set with a dust collector. I paid $80 for it years ago but I see this is on sale here http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-HS-2001-/22-7385


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

journeyman777 said:


> what are you guys using to cut out ceiling for 6'' cans? Ive seen an adjustable kit my supply shop carries. I also use the Milwaukee 4 1/8'' hole saw for 4'' cans. Im not sure if there is a hole saw large enough for 6'' cans.



http://www.service.kleintools.com/T... Saws DRILLBIT-HOLE SAW-CARBIDE/Product/31605

http://www.lenoxtools.com/pages/Product.aspx?productId=CarbideGritLightingHoleSaws

This type also works well......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Greenlee carbide-tip hole saws. 6-3/8, 6-5/8 and 6-7/8.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I use this....


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I use a Remington rem grit. It's perfect for 6" Halos.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

Lightolier kit for drywall, Milwaukee Carbide grit with Rack-a-tiers Dust bowl for lathe/plaster. The Lightolier kit is good for up to 8", while Milwaukee has them up to at least 6 and 7/8" (I have most of the size from roughly 2" up to the 6 and 7/8, they might have even bigger).

If you aren't using the Lightolier kit or similar (as posted above), get yourself a dust bowl!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I still use these.. I hate drilling blind and this method never failed me yet.. :thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Keyhole saw or roto zip for me. Side note, 6 inch cans????  Since you are still in 1996 I'm going to give you a warning. Things get ugly come mid-late 2k's. stash your cash.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

B4T said:


> I still use these.. I hate drilling blind and this method never failed me yet.. :thumbup:


Does the drywall saw you use have a camera on the end of it? Whats the difference between cutting blind and drilling blind? At least with the hole saw you are only penetrating maybe an inch with the pilot bit (and it stays in one place), whereas with a drywall saw you're going up several inches (and the blade travels the entire 19.6 inches of the circumference of the circle.

Using a hole saw and a drilling bowl is faster, cleaner, and less risky.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

B W E said:


> Does the drywall saw you use have a camera on the end of it? Whats the difference between cutting blind and drilling blind? At least with the hole saw you are only penetrating maybe an inch with the pilot bit (and it stays in one place), whereas with a drywall saw you're going up several inches (and the blade travels the entire 19.6 inches of the circumference of the circle.
> 
> Using a hole saw and a drilling bowl is faster, cleaner, and less risky.


Once I mark the hole.. I cut across in both directions probing for anything to ruin my day..

If I find something.. moving the circle over is easy with minimum drywall repair..

Once you cut a 6" hole you have a mess to move it over if location is not good...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B W E said:


> Does the drywall saw you use have a camera on the end of it? .........


His has the Magic Obstruction Detection Alarm in the handle. Hold it up next to the ceiling, and if there's any joists, pipes, ducts, gas lines, wiring, etc that will cause an issue, it sends a 600v shock to the user.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> His has the Magic Obstruction Detection Alarm in the handle. Hold it up next to the ceiling, and if there's any joists, pipes, ducts, gas lines, wiring, etc that will cause an issue, it sends a 600v shock to the user.


Close... but it just makes a really ugly sound..


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

svh19044 said:


> Lightolier kit for drywall, Milwaukee Carbide grit with Rack-a-tiers Dust bowl for lathe/plaster. The Lightolier kit is good for up to 8", while Milwaukee has them up to at least 6 and 7/8" (I have most of the size from roughly 2" up to the 6 and 7/8, they might have even bigger).
> 
> If you aren't using the Lightolier kit or similar (as posted above), get yourself a dust bowl!



We use the same kit. It works on plaster well too.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

B4T said:


> Once I mark the hole.. I cut across in both directions probing for anything to ruin my day..
> 
> If I find something.. moving the circle over is easy with minimum drywall repair..
> 
> Once you cut a 6" hole you have a mess to move it over if location is not good...


Use one of these. Poke it through the center mark at an angle, and use it to feel around for obstructions. Knowing how a house is built, and what kinds of things are around you (fireplace with gas line? bathroom above? ) helps to reduce the number of unforeseen obstructions....

A hole saw with a dust bowl is the best way to go.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> I still use these.. I hate drilling blind and this method never failed me yet.. :thumbup:


:laughing::whistling2:


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

B4T said:


> I still use these.. I hate drilling blind and this method never failed me yet.. :thumbup:


You also still use these, right?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

B W E said:


> You also still use these, right?


OK... who has been talking.. :laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hackzall.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

B W E said:


> Does the drywall saw you use have a camera on the end of it? Whats the difference between cutting blind and drilling blind? At least with the hole saw you are only penetrating maybe an inch with the pilot bit (and it stays in one place), whereas with a drywall saw you're going up several inches (and the blade travels the entire 19.6 inches of the circumference of the circle.
> 
> Using a hole saw and a drilling bowl is faster, cleaner, and less risky.


You can feel if you hit a wire or pipe with a gib saw, not with a holesaw in my experiance. Also a holesaw can jerk out of the hole and you end up with a hole that looks like O))).

When Im doing speakers I use a Fastcap Accuscribe to do the circle.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

chewy said:


> You can feel if you hit a wire or pipe with a gib saw, not with a holesaw in my experiance. Also a holesaw can jerk out of the hole and you end up with a hole that looks like O))).
> 
> When Im doing speakers I use a Fastcap Accuscribe to do the circle.


I guess anything's possible, but due to the pilot bit on my hole saw, I've never once cut anything but a clean round hole. My long skinny screwdriver takes care of finding things a stud finder misses. I guess Im a "work smarter, not harder" kind of guy. No matter what, hole saw or drywall saw, if there is an obstacle, you've got a patch to deal with.....

to each his own.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> OK... who has been talking.. :laughing:


You have. :whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Greenlee carbide-tip hole saws. 6-3/8, 6-5/8 and 6-7/8.


Nope i even have one. Let me guess, you paid $4.50 for it.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

B4T said:


> Once I mark the hole.. I cut across in both directions probing for anything to ruin my day..
> 
> If I find something.. moving the circle over is easy with minimum drywall repair..
> 
> Once you cut a 6" hole you have a mess to move it over if location is not good...


I allways do it that way, I recently had a small remodel and had to add about 35 old work cans, drywall repair guys were scheduled for next day so I bought the hole cutter from Lowes.. It worked good but I hit rafters on about 60% of them.
I like the old way better personally, it is slower but definitely easier to shift holes.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> I allways do it that way, I recently had a small remodel and had to add about 35 old work cans, drywall repair guys were scheduled for next day so I bought the hole cutter from Lowes.. It worked good but I hit rafters on about 60% of them.
> *I like the old way better personally, it is slower but definitely easier to shift holes.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly... but we get laughed at by the "speed" guys.. :no:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Some of the finest work I've ever seen was from some TURTLE slow old timers.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> I allways do it that way, I recently had a small remodel and had to add about 35 old work cans, drywall repair guys were scheduled for next day so I bought the hole cutter from Lowes.. It worked good but I hit rafters on about 60% of them.
> I like the old way better personally, it is slower but definitely easier to shift holes.


Which ever way you go, you don't just start drilling or cutting. Make a small access hole first, then stick a 14AWG wire bent, coat hanger, wobbly screwdriver, etc. and probe around first.

A rafter should be an easy find, no reason to just blind drill/cut before checking.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> Which ever way you go, you don't just start drilling or cutting. Make a small access hole first, then stick a 14AWG wire bent, coat hanger, wobbly screwdriver, etc. and probe around first.
> 
> A rafter should be an easy find, no reason to just blind drill/cut before checking.


Oh no, I would not usually just start drilling. But in this case the house was dead, no water,no homeowner,had drywallers and plumbers coming in after me,so if I hit anything it would be an easy fix. So it was a rare occasion that I could just "go for it" so to speak.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> Oh no, I would not usually just start drilling. But in this case the house was dead, no water,no homeowner,had drywallers and plumbers coming in after me,so if I hit anything it would be an easy fix. So it was a rare occasion that I could just "go for it" so to speak.


And in fairness, I think it was harder. Once you shift the can hole you have to come up with an alternate way to get the can fasteners to hook on the wider side of the enlarged hole.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> I allways do it that way, I recently had a small remodel and had to add about 35 old work cans, drywall repair guys were scheduled for next day so I bought the hole cutter from Lowes.. It worked good but I hit rafters on about 60% of them.
> I like the old way better personally, it is slower but definitely easier to shift holes.


You don't check before you drill?? No stud finder, no skinny long screwdriver?? Who paid for all the patches on a 60% failure rate???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Nope i even have one. Let me guess, you paid $4.50 for it.


I got my 6-3/8 so long ago I forgot what I paid for it. The other two were given to me.

Of course, this is all a lie because you & electricmanscott will say so.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

B W E said:


> You don't check before you drill?? No stud finder, no skinny long screwdriver?? Who paid for all the patches on a 60% failure rate???


This particular job was make all the holes u need to kinda job, so I figured I try the can saw out. But usually I would probe with a piece of wire or screwdriver first.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I also prefer to use the simple jab saw. Though I do start with a 1/4" pilot hole and a bent bit of ceiling tie wire to check for rafters and other obstructions.

"Toothed" hole saws grab into drywall and you're not in a very good position as you hold the dril overhead. The 'fly cutters' make WAY too much dust. 

Rotozip throws dust all over the house. 

I have not tried the carbide grit saws; those just might work well. 

Rack-a-tiers sells what looks to be a real nice dust catcher- I'll have to try it some day.

Another thing I'm eager to try for can lights is the Multi-master. This tool has been amazing for cut-in boxes; it might be great for these holes as well.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> I have not tried the carbide grit saws; those just might work well.
> 
> Rack-a-tiers sells what looks to be a real nice dust catcher- I'll have to try it some day.


Here's the exact setup I use, a carbide hole saw (one for 4", 5" and 6") and a dust bowl. This works perfectly. About once a year the little grommet in the dust bowl tears off, and I gotta buy a new one. HD (at least here) sells the hole saws, made by Remgrit, in 4" and 6" and both include the arbor and pilot bit for about $30. The dust bowl is from my supplier, made by Morris. It's a very fast, very clean method. Few things suck as bad as a boatload of over your head drywall cutting.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

My low tech saw and cardboard box takes me less that a minute to cut a round hole..

I don't see a big time saver in using a mechanical saw to do the work.. but I already know some of you will  because I carry a beeper.. :jester:


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

B W E said:


> Here's the exact setup I use, a carbide hole saw (one for 4", 5" and 6") and a dust bowl. This works perfectly. About once a year the little grommet in the dust bowl tears off, and I gotta buy a new one. HD (at least here) sells the hole saws, made by Remgrit, in 4" and 6" and both include the arbor and pilot bit for about $30. The dust bowl is from my supplier, made by Morris. It's a very fast, very clean method. Few things suck as bad as a boatload of over your head drywall cutting.


What size hole saw are you using for 5" cans? Is it slightly bigger than 5"?


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

journeyman777 said:


> What size hole saw are you using for 5" cans? Is it slightly bigger than 5"?


5 3/8" I believe


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> There are hole saws but I use an adjustable set with a dust collector. I paid $80 for it years ago but I see this is on sale here http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-HS-2001-/22-7385


I own this kit and have yet to use it. I was told the ceiling needs to be new built with newer board and some older ceilings may trash this tool. Not sure how true this is?


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## case320 (Mar 4, 2009)

As far as dust catching, I cut a basketball in half, and put the arbor through a hole drilled in the bottom big enough for the arbor. The basketball seals good to the ceiling and keeps the dust off me and the floor around me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> My low tech saw and cardboard box takes me less that a minute to cut a round hole..........


Drill and hole saw, 10 seconds max.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

case320 said:


> As far as dust catching, I cut a basketball in half, and put the arbor through a hole drilled in the bottom big enough for the arbor. The basketball seals good to the ceiling and keeps the dust off me and the floor around me.


Exactly what I do. I don't even pay for the basketballs.... Mother Nature keeps me supplied with them from the park across the street. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Drill and hole saw, 10 seconds max.


It takes you twice as long to walk to the truck than I do.. so we are even..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> It takes you twice as long to walk to the truck than I do.. so we are even..


Even if that's true, then we're even_ on the first one_.

After that, I'm leaving you in the dust.


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

Shoot the ceiling with your infrared camera. You can see where all the joists are and layout your can lights accordingly.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

B4T said:


> It takes you twice as long to walk to the truck than I do.. so we are even..


Yea but then you have to add in stopping to make stupid posts in forums.

Come on B4T that clown hasn't worked since al gore invented the Internet.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I got my 6-3/8 so long ago I forgot what I paid for it. The other two were given to me.
> 
> Of course, this is all a lie because you & electricmanscott will say so.


You turn into a baby when someone calls you on your BS. :yes:

So I'll ask again, have you ever used Service Magic, yes or no. Can you show us the invoice for your phantom GFCI's yes or no, if yes let's see it.


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## MadDawg (Jun 12, 2012)

This saves me alot of time.


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## FanelliBT (Dec 14, 2012)

B4T said:


> Once I mark the hole.. I cut across in both directions probing for anything to ruin my day..
> 
> If I find something.. moving the circle over is easy with minimum drywall repair..
> 
> Once you cut a 6" hole you have a mess to move it over if location is not good...


Why not just carry an 8" flat head screwdriver and use that to check to see if you are clear then you have a nice tiny quarter inch hole that you can patch with your finger if the can doesnt cover it anyway?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

FanelliBT said:


> Why not just carry an 8" flat head screwdriver and use that to check to see if you are clear then you have a nice tiny quarter inch hole that you can patch with your finger if the can doesnt cover it anyway?


It's all the same


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

​I always use my offset screw driver... I have a beater for recessed work. The offset allows you to sweep side to side pretty effectively..

I love the carbide blades for plaster and the thick metal mesh... Its really the only way to do it right... But it makes a mess....you need to run a vac while you cut. 

I have a lightolier hole saw with bowl and my own vacume attachment.. I swear its the best thing for this kind of work .

It has really cut down on my clean up time. Last time i used it on 8 four inch cans in plaster i was really happy not to find dust everywhere... even the drop cloth was pretty clean..​​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> It's all the same


Exaclly... all about what you feel comfortable with...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Hotlegs said:


> Shoot the ceiling with your infrared camera. You can see where all the joists are and layout your can lights accordingly.


 really do you have a pic of that ....?


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

captkirk said:


> really do you have a pic of that ....?


I'll try and make one this weekend. Camera is in my truck.


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

Hotlegs said:


> Shoot the ceiling with your infrared camera. You can see where all the joists are and layout your can lights accordingly.


Does an infared camera really show all the joists in a ceiling?


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

journeyman777 said:


> Does an infared camera really show all the joists in a ceiling?


Yes it will, the timber will act as a conductor of the cold from the roof. I remember some discussion on steel vs timber framing and there was noticeably different temps between the steel and the timber.


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

chewy said:


> Yes it will, the timber will act as a conductor of the cold from the roof. I remember some discussion on steel vs timber framing and there was noticeably different temps between the steel and the timber.


That makes sense on the top level floor. What about lower floors?


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

journeyman777 said:


> That makes sense on the top level floor. What about lower floors?


Im not sure, the timber might absorb and retain heat more than the surface of the drywall. Its a bloody good idea to think of using a thermal imager to find studs though.


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

chewy said:


> Im not sure, the timber might absorb and retain heat more than the surface of the drywall. Its a bloody good idea to think of using a thermal imager to find studs though.


ya, im pretty interested in this...If I had one for next weeks job it would be a huge help. Seems like an Entry level Flir is around 1495- New. Definitely an expensive toy!


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

journeyman777 said:


> ya, im pretty interested in this...If I had one for next weeks job it would be a huge help. Seems like an Entry level Flir is around 1495- New. Definitely an expensive toy!


Theres a Milwaukee M12 one which wouldnt be that expensive surely. It would be like having Xray vision into walls! :laughing:


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## FanelliBT (Dec 14, 2012)

chewy said:


> Theres a Milwaukee M12 one which wouldnt be that expensive surely. It would be like having Xray vision into walls! :laughing:


Check this out on AMZN: Milwaukee 2260-21 M12 160 x 120 Thermal Ima... http://amzn.com/B007IUYCYK

It's a lot on amazon I never thought of using a thermal imager for layout! But these toys are way to much for me  I will stick with my dust off chaulk line 8" screwdriver and elco adjustable holesaw for now.


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

Not the greatest pic but you can see the can light and the rafters. The attic and my house are about the same temp right now. If I had taken this in the summer when the attic is 130 deg, the results would be much clearer.

That's an eye ball trim on a recessed can. I mostly use the camera in the summer to shoot ceilings checking for insulation and the rafters always show up !!


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## LBC Jesse (Apr 26, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Drill and hole saw, 10 seconds max.


I used a shotgun to make a hole for a bathroom exhaust fan (.00001 seconds).. unfortunately i was also thrown out of the house and my wife called one of yall to do the job correctly..:jester:


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

journeyman777 said:


> Does an infared camera really show all the joists in a ceiling?


Yes sir


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

I really want one! By the way you can buy these refurbished directly from Flir . The entry level I3 was right about $1000 with free shipping and warranty. I may go that route. I like the I5 tho (1250)


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

I've bought one thing in my life that was "refurbished" and when i plugged it in smoke poured out of it. I'd rather spend the extra money and buy something new. Preferably from a supply house where I can always take it back to replace it if it breaks.


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

Hotlegs said:


> I've bought one thing in my life that was "refurbished" and when i plugged it in smoke poured out of it. I'd rather spend the extra money and buy something new. Preferably from a supply house where I can always take it back to replace it if it breaks.


This is directly from Flir.....it will be brand new when you get it. Warrantied.


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## Hotlegs (Oct 9, 2011)

journeyman777 said:


> This is directly from Flir.....it will be brand new when you get it. Warrantied.


Well get ya one. They can be used for about 1000 things. Ever want to know which is the coldest 12 pack at the store? Now ya know


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

B4T said:


> rnr electric said:
> 
> 
> > I allways do it that way, I recently had a small remodel and had to add about 35 old work cans, drywall repair guys were scheduled for next day so I bought the hole cutter from Lowes.. It worked good but I hit rafters on about 60% of them.
> ...


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

Back on the can size and proper hole saw. I can't find a holesaw for a halo 5" can? 5" is too small and so is 5 1/2" .... Anyone familiar with the proper hole saw size for a halo 5"?


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

journeyman777 said:


> Back on the can size and proper hole saw. I can't find a holesaw for a halo 5" can? 5" is too small and so is 5 1/2" .... Anyone familiar with the proper hole saw size for a halo 5"?


For Juno/Halo/CE/Cooper 5" recessed and Lightolier 1000 remodel 5", 5 1/2" is the correct size.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I dunno, you will notice I said this is the first time I have ever just "let er rip" so to speak. And it was a drywall ceiling. I have cut into a ton of plaster and lathe when I was young so I'm gonn just going to say it would suck....


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

B4T said:


> I still use these.. I hate drilling blind and this method never failed me yet.. :thumbup:


That's funny I still use the saw too.I have bad luck with those other kinds.Everytime I use one i find a copper water line dead center.:laughing: If i hit something with my saw I can adjust.


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