# Panel change - How do you guys label your circuits



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

White tape and a Sharpie on the sheath.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

In resi, I almost never label conductors before a panel change. The 2-pole circuits are pretty self evident, most of the time. The single pole stuff is so often wrong that I'd just as soon run around the house and sort it out when the new panel is all done and heated up. Done literally hundreds of panel changes that way.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> In resi, I almost never label conductors before a panel change. The 2-pole circuits are pretty self evident, most of the time. The single pole stuff is so often wrong that I'd just as soon run around the house and sort it out when the new panel is all done and heated up. Done literally hundreds of panel changes that way.


Unfortunately a mwbc needs to be landed on a two pole breaker if being inspected. This adds more time to isolate a circuit to identify what it feeds. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

I don't really label most stuff either. I twist together MWBC's and 240V circuits so I know that they go together. If need be I'll label with some white tape to mark one or the other (because occasionally, there are 240V 20A circuits). You can make quick work of identification that way.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I don't label before either. The only thing I take note of is 2-wire 220 feeds or if there is something unusual in the panel like different coloured spliced wires, two wire spliced in the panel, etc.

90% of the stuff is never marked anyway, and when we add circuits during a panel change we mark our own stuff.

We mark the entire panel when complete and power is restored.

Cheers
John


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> In resi, I almost never label conductors before a panel change. The 2-pole circuits are pretty self evident, most of the time. The single pole stuff is so often wrong that I'd just as soon run around the house and sort it out when the new panel is all done and heated up. Done literally hundreds of panel changes that way.


That's a waste of time. Even if half are wrong, half are right.

The best circuit breaker finder is a jobsite radio with volume at max.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I usually follow the existing panel schedule 
that is...(if there is one and I can read it)...

Some of those old panel schedules are written in 
Olde English cursive writing:vs_mad:

Anyhoo , I use tape numbers and write it down 
as I remove each one...I'm not much for running around
a furnished house to figure out a 30 year old panel schedule


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with 99 here.

I use white tape and a sharpie and identify before removal. 

Then once it's in you're done collect the dollars and walk away smiling.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Back in the day, we would just label "lites and plugs", now the inspectors what a more detailed legend such as "15A - Receptacles in Northwest bedroom, Northeast bedroom and upstairs hallway". Nobody's old schedule would be that detailed even if it existed and was legible. "Plugs in Bobbies' room" will get you a defect around here...

Cheers
John


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

If a panel is labeled correctly or detailed enough we mark everything with tape and a sharpie. If it's not labeled correctly we label what is marked correctly and run around after with a radio looking for the mystery circuits.

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Navyguy said:


> Back in the day, we would just label "lites and plugs", now the inspectors what a more detailed legend such as "15A - Receptacles in Northwest bedroom, Northeast bedroom and upstairs hallway". Nobody's old schedule would be that detailed even if it existed and was legible. "Plugs in Bobbies' room" will get you a defect around here...
> 
> Cheers
> John


Yeah cause Bobbie has been married and gone since 1973!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I go through miles (kilometers) of white tape. I'm always making notes to myself at panels and splice boxes. It's just habit to label cables before I yank them out of the panel.

I just finished a commercial job. The panel directory card was too small for the size of panel (way to go Siemens). I put a laminated label beside each breaker. Now the owner wants me to go back with a card because he says labels will fall off  .


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

I buy the extra sticky label tape for my label maker... they can still come off... depends on the paint of the panel they're going onto.


99cents said:


> I go through miles (kilometers) of white tape. I'm always making notes to myself at panels and splice boxes. It's just habit to label cables before I yank them out of the panel.
> 
> I just finished a commercial job. The panel directory card was too small for the size of panel (way to go Siemens). I put a laminated label beside each breaker. Now the owner wants me to go back with a card because he says labels will fall off  .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I buy the extra sticky label tape for my label maker... they can still come off... depends on the paint of the panel they're going onto.


Learned a long time ago when the shop I worked for made the sheetmetal boxes for our control panels, put white vinegar on a cotton rag and wipe the panel down before you put your labels on.

They will be there until the material wears away!


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

I usually dont label before a panel change with the exception of multi wire branch circuits or any splices in the panel. 
I label everything after the change and use as much detail as possible and using easy to understand references ie back bedroom, south small bedroom etc etc. In older homes I will usually come across the original circuit which did lights and 1 outlet in every room and can cover all sorts of other things ....its a real pain in the ass tracking these ones down because some have been ripped out and boxed, ripped out completely or left in place and new wiring circuits used and the old one left in place...all depends on what someone was thinking back in the day i suppose but they can take up a few lines very easily on a schedule


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Before I take the old panel apart I use a number book same as what commercial guys use for wire pulls and label each branch circuit 1-42, or if I'm running out of numbers I will use A-Z. 
I just use a pad of paper and write down the numbers and what the old schedule says it should be and the breaker size that it was on. If it is not labeled it gets a ? most of those are something that was added afterwards and somewhat easy to find, If I can't figure it out quickly It stays a ? unless they want to pay me more to find it. 

My hand writing is not the best so I make a typed up schedule which goes in a clear pocket in the door.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If the homeowner is around, I will have him/her run around the house while I stay on the phone at the panel.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

use a number book to mark the wires, take a picture of the old panel breaker configuration and match that up on the new panel


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

T&B Wiremarkers.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

drspec said:


> use a number book to mark the wires, take a picture of the old panel breaker configuration and match that up on the new panel


You can never have enough pictures. 
I mark the numbers down on a note pad as well. 

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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I am just habituated to labelling and taking a picture before I take things apart, its saved my bacon too many times. It might not really be necessary with a panel but If some weird problem is reported after the fact you might wish you remembered what came from where.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I write "plugs and lites" at the top of each column and then draw an arrow the whole way down.


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

drspec said:


> use a number book to mark the wires, take a picture of the old panel breaker configuration and match that up on the new panel


Really good tip. What do you do if the panel schedule is not labelled properly or has chicken scratch all over it?


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

NDC said:


> Really good tip. What do you do if the panel schedule is not labelled properly or has chicken scratch all over it?


I put a ? unless the customer wants me to spend the time figuring it out. In that case the Tasco circuit finder comes out.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

zac said:


> Unfortunately a mwbc needs to be landed on a two pole breaker if being inspected. This adds more time to isolate a circuit to identify what it feeds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I can tell how the circuits come into the panel 9/10 times if they are MWBC.
Ill make a map of the circuits, number them with the labels from a number book and then that's about it.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

JohnJ65 said:


> I put a ? unless the customer wants me to spend the time figuring it out. In that case the Tasco circuit finder comes out.


Our inspectors don't really go for the "?" answer. While I will say that there are situations where we really don't know where a circuit goes to; we have put in a reasonable effort to find it.

It could be a coiled wire in an attic, attic exhaust fan, spare wire in a basement junction box, etc; but some times you just don't know. In these cases I will talk to the client and see if they want me to leave it off and once they figure out something is not working they can turn it on and label it later.

But if the inspector asks why a circuit is not identified, I need to be able to tell him that we could not find it after a serious effort.

Cheers
John


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Navyguy said:


> Our inspectors don't really go for the "?" answer. While I will say that there are situations where we really don't know where a circuit goes to; we have put in a reasonable effort to find it.
> 
> It could be a coiled wire in an attic, attic exhaust fan, spare wire in a basement junction box, etc; but some times you just don't know. In these cases I will talk to the client and see if they want me to leave it off and once they figure out something is not working they can turn it on and label it later.
> 
> ...


When you are doing a panel change, does your inspector show up after you're done branch circuits?
The inspectors around here usually show up way before I'm at the point of identifying my circuits.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Well the truth is sometimes then don't even show up... but generally well before the panel is in and circuits are hot. For us it is about the relationship / trust. If they go to the job after the fact for a follow-up, they know they will find a fully detailed legend.

In the early years, we received defects for incomplete panel legends... over 9000 defect in 2017 https://www.esasafe.com/assets/file...0-Marking-of-elec-equipment-FINAL-Apr2018.pdf


Cheers
John


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Navyguy said:


> Well the truth is sometimes then don't even show up... but generally well before the panel is in and circuits are hot. For us it is about the relationship / trust. If they go to the job after the fact for a follow-up, they know they will find a fully detailed legend.
> 
> In the early years, we received defects for incomplete panel legends... over 9000 defect in 2017 https://www.esasafe.com/assets/file...0-Marking-of-elec-equipment-FINAL-Apr2018.pdf
> 
> ...


I have never booked for a disconnect and hold and had the inspector show up twice. I hope it stays that way also.
They just show up, say its good to go, and leave. Hydro shows up and I'm already well away into cutting in circuits.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Generally that is true, but not always for us. As an example we may be doing a basement reno and will get a disconnect and hold and rough-in at the same time, but get a final several months later. For the final the inspector will look for that detailed panel legend.

Sometimes we will get called back to a home for additional work, perhaps a year later or more and he will comment that we did the panel change here and note our detailed legend.

Sometimes the inspector will not visit on the disconnect and hold day and come back at a later inspection day due to some scheduling reason (only has happened twice) and they will see the detailed legend.

So there are a number of opportunities for the inspector to return and "double check our work", which I am totally happy with.

Cheers
John


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

If it's an really old one , I put a disclaimer in my bid that
says running around the house is an extra cost at $75.00
an hour.

They usually say they want to do that themselves


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Learned a long time ago when the shop I worked for made the sheetmetal boxes for our control panels, put white vinegar on a cotton rag and wipe the panel down before you put your labels on.
> 
> They will be there until the material wears away!


A little more convenient is those alcohol swabs in foil packages. They'll even let stick-ons live up to their name.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Gnome said:


> A little more convenient is those alcohol swabs in foil packages. They'll even let stick-ons live up to their name.


I don't think alcohol does more than clean the surface where as the acidic properties of the vinegar actually dulls the surface in addition to cleaning.


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## diveholik (Oct 14, 2017)

I did white tape to identify circuits before we purchased a circuit mapper. It’s a good upsell for pinpoint labeling. Only downfall is you have to remove switch plates to identify and homes with T/R receptacles I use grounding adapter to make easier readings


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## Whocares05050 (May 14, 2018)

Because 8/10 panels I change have no previous labels or they are so freaking old the labels are gone or faded, I just swap and re-wire and go breaker by breaker when finished while my other guy is on the cell phone telling me what is off to label. 



If it is labeled beforehand, I will take pictures and write down the list and before copying over I will do the cell method again to verify...


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## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

it shouldn't be mandatory to label these freakin panels. There is no safety hazard involoved. You just can't locate what some circuits are feeding


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