# Compatible “Smart” Switches



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I have a client that we just installed some exterior slim pots in their soffit.

They currently have a “Smart” switch that is both a dimmer and timer control (Leviton DW6HD-1BZ). The lights that I installed are Lithonia (Acuity) WF4 model; I can find lots of information on compatible dimmers, but not on “Smart” switches.

I have a call / email into the supplier; thought I might get some recommendations here. Light will turn on / off at 100%. No other functions work. Wattage is well within limits of switch (only 6 lights).

This is the only switch he has like this, so changing to another one really is not an issue, just want to get the right one.

Cheers
John


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

If I understand correctly why in the world would a building owner reduce the amount of light on the exterior? It highlights their brand and provides security. The timer part I get for sure. 
Dimming, do not get that at all. I personally do not have any dimmers in my home. I do not have problems getting the right lighting for each room with out them.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

While this is not the case in this situation, I have been on jobs in the past where the illumination was guided by the proximity of persons approaching. As an example I was on a job where if someone approached the walkway, the lights were slightly lit, as you moved up the walkway, the lights ahead of you brightened and the then dimmed back after you passed or after a certain period of time. It was called a "cascading effect" if I recall.

I am not a light designer, but I also think that you do not need to have 100% brilliance to highlight certain aspects of a property / building, but lets say an alarm went off, you might want to have them 100% on as an output to an event.

Cheers
John


----------



## dgarmstrong (Dec 20, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> I have a client that we just installed some exterior slim pots in their soffit.
> 
> They currently have a “Smart” switch that is both a dimmer and timer control (Leviton DW6HD-1BZ). The lights that I installed ate Lithonia (Acuity) WF4 model; I can find lots of information on compatible dimmers, but not on “Smart” switches.
> 
> ...


I would highly recommend the Lutron product with the smart bridge for control on smartphones. I used the Leviton wifi dimmers and switches and had nothing but issues with them. I used all LiteLine 4" Luna Pot Lights in the home. Than used the Leviton Dimmers and did nothing but flicker and not dim down to the 10% or 5% (whatever the lowest dimming is on 120V LED Dimmers is). I would say it didn't even dim past 60%.
I removed 15 Devices between dimmers, switches, and 3-ways and replaced it all with the Lutron and had no problems since with call backs.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I have not had the opportunity to try out one of these load caps with a dimmer and LED's but it's supposed to help and it is a Lutron Product.
_The LUT-MLC load adapter is provided to help ensure proper operation of the switch with LED, CFL, fluorescent, and ELV lighting loads. When controlling one of these load types, a LUT-MLC may be required, especially at lower wattages.

*It's worth a try for only $5 ea.*







_


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> They currently have a “Smart” switch that is both a dimmer and timer control (Leviton DW6HD-1BZ).
> Light will turn on / off at 100%. No other functions work.


To be honest, I think either the smart switch is defective, or it's not set up right (didn't look at the spec sheet, but is it programmable ? )

IME, when the light/dimmer aren't compatible, they just don't dim enough, or they will flicker.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> If I understand correctly why in the world would a building owner reduce the amount of light on the exterior? It highlights their brand and provides security. The timer part I get for sure.
> Dimming, do not get that at all. I personally do not have any dimmers in my home. I do not have problems getting the right lighting for each room with out them.


What have you got against dimming? Only the Sith deal in absolutes.


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

LGLS said:


> What have you got against dimming? Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
> [/QUOTE
> When I was dealing a lot with dimmers they were basically transformers that burned off the excess light as heat. I know there are new types using triacs and PWM. For me it is just to easy to design and install for my purposes, light switches. I do not do new installs of lighting.
> So for this instance I will walk with the Sith.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> When I was dealing a lot with dimmers they were basically transformers that burned off the excess light as heat. I know there are new types using triacs and PWM. For me it is just to easy to design and install for my purposes, light switches. I do not do new installs of lighting.
> So for this instance I will walk with the Sith.


Auto transformer/ variac style dimmers? How old are you?


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

LGLS said:


> Auto transformer/ variac style dimmers? How old are you?


72 years young.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I just looked at the compatibility chart for the Leviton DW6HD-1BZ and the WF4 was not on the list. 
It's hard enough to match up a dimmer with LED fixtures without throwing in a timer. 
If there was some way to separate the two devices that might be the best option.
Perhaps there is something in the app under settings that will help you set up dimming for that switch.


----------



## dgarmstrong (Dec 20, 2019)

Easy said:


> I just looked at the compatibility chart for the Leviton DW6HD-1BZ and the WF4 was not on the list.
> It's hard enough to match up a dimmer with LED fixtures without throwing in a timer.
> If there was some way to separate the two devices that might be the best option.
> Perhaps there is something in the app under settings that will help you set up dimming for that switch.


The smart switches and dimmers are definitely the direction that people are taking these days with times. With the Lutron Product, it doesn't matter if it is a switch or a dimmer, you can do timers on outdoor lighting or even indoor lighting. I have my outside lights and all my inside lights on the Lutron System. I have my outside light turn on at sunset (Changes every day based on time of year). they then turn off every night at 10:30pm. From there I have all the inside lights to turn off every morning at 9:30am just incase I forgot to turn off any lights.
I have installed the system of a lot of unknown LED lighting products and haven't had any issues. So if you are looking for something that is worry free I would try that.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

dgarmstrong said:


> The smart switches and dimmers are definitely the direction that people are taking these days with times. With the Lutron Product, it doesn't matter if it is a switch or a dimmer, you can do timers on outdoor lighting or even indoor lighting. I have my outside lights and all my inside lights on the Lutron System. I have my outside light turn on at sunset (Changes every day based on time of year). they then turn off every night at 10:30pm. From there I have all the inside lights to turn off every morning at 9:30am just incase I forgot to turn off any lights.
> I have installed the system of a lot of unknown LED lighting products and haven't had any issues. So if you are looking for something that is worry free I would try that.


I really like Lutron products. Do you have a model number for a Lutron switch with integrated time clock and dimming function that does not require a hub?


----------



## dgarmstrong (Dec 20, 2019)

Easy said:


> I really like Lutron products. Do you have a model number for a Lutron switch with integrated time clock and dimming function that does not require a hub?


You need the hub for the Lutron Smart product. That way they can be programmed with the timers and the current date and time of the area. Here is the starter kits (I do know there are other starter kits)
Switch Starter Kit - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/lu...ncing-2-points-of-control-in-white/1001595162
Dimmer Starter Kit - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/lu...lighting-dimmer-switch-starter-kit/1000854806

It is extremely easy to program. Just plug the hub into the internet modem (or network switch for larger houses with networking), Download the lutron app, and just follow all the instructions. Can be installed and programmed within 10 minutes


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

dgarmstrong said:


> You need the hub for the Lutron Smart product. That way they can be programmed with the timers and the current date and time of the area. Here is the starter kits (I do know there are other starter kits)
> Switch Starter Kit - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/lu...ncing-2-points-of-control-in-white/1001595162
> Dimmer Starter Kit - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/lu...lighting-dimmer-switch-starter-kit/1000854806
> 
> It is extremely easy to program. Just plug the hub into the internet modem (or network switch for larger houses with networking), Download the lutron app, and just follow all the instructions. Can be installed and programmed within 10 minutes


I guess if the OP wants to go with a Hub then I agree this would be the way to set it up.
I kind of think he's is just looking for an in wall switch. 

It would be nice if you could access the bridge from a remote location. 
Is the RA2 required with a Lutron Bridge to accomplish that? 
It would be nice to adjust times without having to drive to the job site.

See diagram below


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Another double post ?


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

emtnut said:


> To be honest, I think either the smart switch is defective, or it's not set up right (didn't look at the spec sheet, but is it programmable ? )
> 
> IME, when the light/dimmer aren't compatible, they just don't dim enough, or they will flicker.


The switch worked previously with a standard LED bulb in a fixture. All we did was move it to the new soffit lights (6 x WF4 slims), so we know it worked on the LED single light before.

Cheers
John


----------



## dgarmstrong (Dec 20, 2019)

Easy said:


> It would be nice if you could access the bridge from a remote location.
> Is the RA2 required with a Lutron Bridge to accomplish that?
> It would be nice to adjust times without having to drive to the job site.


The hub is what makes it possible to be accessed remotely. it is also required to tell the switches and dimmers what to do. This is why they are a lot better than your normal WiFi dimmer. They removed the "Brains" of the switches/dimmers and put it into the hub so the switches/dimmers have more processing power to deal with dimming the LED loads.

The RA2 product you have to have the training for from lutron. Its kind of your higher end brand of the lutron product. The switches and dimmers also look a lot better. They kind of have the same look at the Maestro Dimmers.

and finally as for the time adjustments. There is 2 ways of doing this. If using the Cesada Bridge or Cesada Pro Bridge. The homeowner after the system is installed can change how the programming is. Meaning changing times, dimming ranges, and names of switches/dimmers.



Navyguy said:


> The switch worked previously with a standard LED bulb in a fixture. All we did was move it to the new soffit lights (6 x WF4 slims), so we know it worked on the LED single light before.


So I am not sure how much you know about LED Lights, but here is the info for anyone else reading.
LED Lights have probably been the worst invention for electricians and the cause of almost 60% of lighting issues that you will come across.
LED Lights have what is called a "Forward Phase Dimming" and "Reverse Phase Dimming". Depending of the LED lighting manufacturer that you are using, they can decide how they want their bulbs to act. From there even the amount of bulbs on one dimmer can change the "Phase Dimming". So if you have 2 LED Pot Lights on one Dimmers, it could be a forward phase dimming. But if you add 4 more on to 6 LED Pot Lights, the resistance and the way the lights operate internally, it could change to a Reverse Phase Dimming. At which point, if the dimer you are using can't dim reverse phase than you will start to get that flickering or lack of dimming to the lower percentages or even dimming than shutting off when it looks to still be at 60% dimming.

To fix this issue though. Using higher end brands can help and not using "All-In-One Dimmers" AKA WiFi Dimmers. If you aren't spending at least $70+ on a "Smart Dimmer" than you are going to have issues. The higher end dimmers have the forward phase and reverse phase dimming. so no matter what you put on them they will always work.


----------



## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

dgarmstrong said:


> The hub is what makes it possible to be accessed remotely. it is also required to tell the switches and dimmers what to do. This is why they are a lot better than your normal WiFi dimmer. They removed the "Brains" of the switches/dimmers and put it into the hub so the switches/dimmers have more processing power to deal with dimming the LED loads.
> 
> The RA2 product you have to have the training for from lutron. Its kind of your higher end brand of the lutron product. The switches and dimmers also look a lot better. They kind of have the same look at the Maestro Dimmers.
> 
> ...


True. I had a chandelier with 20 or so led bulbs on a control 4 switch that would never shut off. It would stay on at like 5%. I think that MLC Easy was recommending would have helped with that. I swapped 1 led bulb for an incandescent bulb and that fixed it. 

I had some expensive Lutron QS switches with 6 wall sconces that had Satco bulbs in them that strobed. Replaced one fixture with a Feit bulb and it fixed it. 

At my house I put in some of the first Lithonia canless led lights on the market and they strobed as they increased from 0-50% on an Insteon Dimmer. I tried the MLC and it didn’t help at all. I swapped one of 8 Lithonia’s out for a Juno and that solved it. 

Not sure why one bulb makes them all work but it does from my experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

dgarmstrong said:


> The hub is what makes it possible to be accessed remotely. it is also required to tell the switches and dimmers what to do. This is why they are a lot better than your normal WiFi dimmer. They removed the "Brains" of the switches/dimmers and put it into the hub so the switches/dimmers have more processing power to deal with dimming the LED loads.
> 
> The RA2 product you have to have the training for from lutron. Its kind of your higher end brand of the lutron product. The switches and dimmers also look a lot better. They kind of have the same look at the Maestro Dimmers.
> 
> ...


Boy are you confused.

In terms of controlling LEDs the device itself is inherently low voltage DC around 6 V. It also has a negative temperature coefficient (resistance decreases with temperature) so it inherently likes to go into thermal runaway. All high power LEDs work best with current control and optionally some kind of temperature sensor for this reason. Dimming via current (or voltage) is a waste of time and effort. The device is inherently highly nonlinear and varies from one to the next. But it can turn on and off in microseconds so it is very easy to just pulse it on and off fast enough so that you don’t notice the flicker (say 120 Hz).

LED drivers are thus unlike almost all other power supplies because almost all other devices need voltage control, not current. As an example dimmers for incandescent lamps simply chop off part of the AC sine wave. The cheapest method with the best efficiency is to use a TRIAC. It is very rugged and simple. Of course just varying the firing angle from 0 to 180 degrees (100% to 0%) ignores two issues. The first is that when the firing angle gets close to 180 degrees the voltage is more like a spike or pulse and you can noticeably hear the filaments rattle. The second is that just cutting the waveform isn’t very linear in terms of power output and neither is the incandescent bulb. So the dimmer manufacturers make the actual firing pattern a curve.

So getting back to LEDs it should vd obvious if you put a nondimmable LED lamp on a dimmer it may work sort of. A dimmablw driver still creates a constant current source for the LED. It reads the pulsing from the dimmer and attempts to divine what the intended on/off pattern “means” by trying to back-calculate the “curve” then modulates the LED output pulse width which is highly linear. The inherent difficulty here is the magic back calculation. Different dimmers behave differently so everybody is trying to guess what to do. The results are obviously going to be inconsistent. High end lighting systems fake it by letting lighting techs screw with the dimmer calibration curves and running multiple dimmers from one control.

Reverse phase dimming is another way to do it. In forward phase dimming the power device is a TRIAC. A voltage pulse turns it on. But it cannot shut itself off. Current (nor voltage) must go to zero to turn it off. This is fine for resistive lamps like incandescent and even magnetic ballasted discharge lighting. In fact it is required with magnetic ballasts or inductive kick will blow up the dimmer. Electronic ballasts though like ELV lights don’t work well (at all) with TRIACs. For those we need to cut off rather than cut on. We can turn an output both on and off at will using a power transistor such as a MOSFET or an IGBT. These are both more expensive and generate more heat. One inherent feature though is that at low lighting levels to avoid the “spiky” output they delay turn on AND turn off early to generate more of a squarish pulse output.

Either way reverse phase dimmers are highly optimized for one specific type of lighting load. So if you go putting a different type of load on it (LEDs) or mix types you get mixed with it just as with the TRIAC types.

So it all dims the same but it’s the calibration curves that are messing with you. This is no different than mixing say incandescent and CFL lighting...they both dim but the brightness will NEVER match. LED is the same way but you can’t mix anything even if they are all LED unless you have some way of tuning each one separately. It doesn’t matter how many fixtures are in use or forward vs reverse phase...it’s all a crap shoot with lighting unless you stick with all the same stuff throughout. And since it gets obsoleted every couple years you have to start fresh every time even if changing just one fixture. The only real “answer” is “scene” controllers that let you tune each dimmer separate.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

dgarmstrong said:


> The hub is what makes it possible to be accessed remotely. it is also required to tell the switches and dimmers what to do. This is why they are a lot better than your normal WiFi dimmer. They removed the "Brains" of the switches/dimmers and put it into the hub so the switches/dimmers have more processing power to deal with dimming the LED loads.
> 
> The RA2 product you have to have the training for from lutron. Its kind of your higher end brand of the lutron product. The switches and dimmers also look a lot better. They kind of have the same look at the Maestro Dimmers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this very informative post. It's been kind of a crap shoot for me setting up dimmers and LED's. I have been using Lutron Maesto's quit a bit for dimming LED can lights and normally have not had issues but this explains why some products are not compatible. The Bridge seems like a very valuable asset to accomplishing our goals. Thanks again.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Either the switch or the fixtures/lamps/bulbs arent dimmable.

Leviton has good customer service and I would give them a call. We use their smart dimmers with Alexa and they do not require a hub. You do need a phone with their app.


----------



## dgarmstrong (Dec 20, 2019)

dspiffy said:


> Either the switch or the fixtures/lamps/bulbs arent dimmable.
> 
> Leviton has good customer service and I would give them a call. We use their smart dimmers with Alexa and they do not require a hub. You do need a phone with their app.


I did call Leviton when I was having the issue. After a 30 minute conversation with them about the setup and the material that was used they came up with this conclusion. Short Form -> LiteLine pot lights ($45 EACH!) aren't on our approved lighting list so OH WELL........
And with wi-fi dimmers or switches, having 1 or 2 on your wi-fi is fine. When you start having upwards of 10+ dimmers/switches, they put one hell of a strain on your wi-fi system slowing it down for more in-need wi-fi devices. Such as your Alexa hubs, your smart devices, your TVs, your gaming conceals, hell even your fridges and freezers are on wi-fi now.
Best advice, when using anything smart lighting, stay away from anything wi-fi and get a product that has its own hub that all the lighting communicates with.


----------



## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

dgarmstrong said:


> I did call Leviton when I was having the issue. After a 30 minute conversation with them about the setup and the material that was used they came up with this conclusion. Short Form -> LiteLine pot lights ($45 EACH!) aren't on our approved lighting list so OH WELL........
> And with wi-fi dimmers or switches, having 1 or 2 on your wi-fi is fine. When you start having upwards of 10+ dimmers/switches, they put one hell of a strain on your wi-fi system slowing it down for more in-need wi-fi devices. Such as your Alexa hubs, your smart devices, your TVs, your gaming conceals, hell even your fridges and freezers are on wi-fi now.
> Best advice, when using anything smart lighting, stay away from anything wi-fi and get a product that has its own hub that all the lighting communicates with.


I made the same mistake, set up my whole house with wifi based devices. My solution was to separate the router into 2G and 5G. The smart devices use the 2G, the laptops and Netflix and such uses 5G. No problems unless the internet goes down.


----------

