# Elevator auxiliary contacts



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Probably, some details would help answer that question.


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## Aphillips (Oct 27, 2017)

Ok, we have a Siemens gear with 70 amp breakers to the elevators, elevator guys said they need auxiliary contacts at the breakers to communicate back to the battery backup so whenever power is manually disconnected the battery backup cannot move the elevators in case a technician is up there. The breakers have a shunt trip system integrated into them, so I need to know if there is any way to introduce auxiliary contacts to the breakers that we already have in place


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

My best guess is that the elevator will fail its inspection until you've swapped out the C/B for an approved unit. I'd contact Siemens. I'd say they -- the elevator crew -- will already know what's required and they are messing with you. 

It's happened -- repeatedly -- with crews I've dealt with. It's their version of Where's Waldo. They laugh and chuckle as you spin your head trying to figure out a suitable solution -- when there is absolutely only ONE solution that will pass inspection.

The longer it takes for you to figure this out, the funnier they think it is.

( It's an illusion that you have any design freedom -- when it comes to elevators. They want what they want. And the game won't end until they get it. )

I've never seen any elevator inspector that will permit any work-around that's been cobbled up in the field. Everything has to be Listed for the purpose.

But, then, my experience has been with hard azz Californian inspectors.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

telsa is probably correct in his assertion. my recollection is that the answer to this is to install a lockable disconnect in the machine room for the unit that has the ability to have the aux contact installed (a common item). the shunt trip can be ahead of the manual disco so that both perform the needed operation.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

wildleg said:


> telsa is probably correct in his assertion. my recollection is that the answer to this is to install a lockable disconnect in the machine room for the unit that has the ability to have the aux contact installed (a common item). the shunt trip can be ahead of the manual disco so that both perform the needed operation.


I agree with wildleg and there is very few and I mean very few options you can do with elevator system and Wildleg and telsa both have good points there.

even over here in my islands they are very strict with it too. there is not much leeway on that. 

I would run that info with inspector first before you do anything more on that. due some inspectors want to see the whole package and if any modifactions it have to be approved from elevator manufacter.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

wildleg said:


> telsa is probably correct in his assertion. my recollection is that the answer to this is to install a lockable disconnect in the machine room for the unit that has the ability to have the aux contact installed (a common item). the shunt trip can be ahead of the manual disco so that both perform the needed operation.


The more I think on it, I'd say you're on the right track.

&&&

For the general readership:

You can't hardly imagine how picky elevator inspectors are.

They will spend an entire day -- no short cuts -- inspecting an elevator.

Because of this, hereabouts, such inspections are scheduled at least four weeks out.

The fees are mighty.

Should an elevator fail its inspection -- in the SLIGHTEST -- the inspector absolutely will not return -- for WEEKS. Period.

In California, the elevator inspectors are a often kith and kin. Yup. 

Otis is Number One. I had the privilege of working with Otis' number one master.

He had the Otis boss 'in charge' of the entire West Coast wrapped around his finger. I saw this up front and close. His uncle was one of the highest ranked inspectors -- for Otis' products. He was a Master, no doubt. Also a key union man - who hated management - just on principle.

Rest assured, EVERYTHING dealing with an elevator -- that carries people -- has to be flawless -- like a NASA space capsule.

There can be absolutely NO unnecessary splices. There can be no attempts at economy WRT raceways. It's EMT or better. ( PVC below grade. ) The location of the safety switch is HIGHLY restricted. They demand that it be so located that a blind man could find it once he passed through the door.

There can NEVER be ANY alien raceway in their room, their shaft, etc. Don't even dream of co-locating anything not directly needed by the elevator system it its space.

They will be VERY demanding WRT fire alarm elements. 

&&&&

The result of all of this: no person has ever died in an elevator during a fire in the last one-hundred years.

Responding firemen are safer in the elevator shaft than anywhere else in the building.

&&&

The end result: one NEVER reads of victims of elevator failure. They just don't happen. They are not allowed to happen. Otis invented the industry. Otis has been safety obsessed from day zero. That's where his patents lie. Otis made it impossible for an elevator to free-fall. 

His patents are the basis for every high-rise city on Earth.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Aphillips said:


> I have an ongoing headache with shindler elevators. They need auxiliary contacts at every location of disconnection. We have 4 auxiliary contacts at all disconnects but now they are saying that we need them at the switchgear as well. The problem is that the gear was made with shunt trips installed on the breakers and not auxiliary contacts. Is there any way to introduce auxiliary contacts at the breakers without replacing the whole shunt system?


If I wanted to know if I could get aux contacts on a breaker, I'd call my gear rep with a breaker cat # and go from there.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

telsa said:


> There can be absolutely NO unnecessary splices. There can be no attempts at economy WRT raceways. It's EMT or better. ( PVC below grade. ) The location of the safety switch is HIGHLY restricted. They demand that it be so located that a blind man could find it once he passed through the door.
> 
> There can NEVER be ANY alien raceway in their room, their shaft, etc. Don't even dream of co-locating anything not directly needed by the elevator system it its space.
> 
> They will be VERY demanding WRT fire alarm elements.


Most of this is spelled out in the NEC for those interested. Fire alarm will depend on local codes for the most part.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Everything will depend on the series of Siemens breaker that you have. Some can have aux contacts added that have nothing to do with the Shunt Trip, others have them built-in when you order a shunt trip so you may already have them and not know it, yet others cannot have them added, but you may be able to mount the other kinds into that same panel. Only a good experienced Siemens guy (or gal) can sort that out for you. And they will need both the catalog number of the panel AND the breakers you have now.

If you'd ever been in an elevator with someone who suffers from extreme claustrophobia, you'd know why inspectors harp on it. A woman I work with is absolutely nuts in elevators and if there is a slight hiccup, she practically soils herself, then starts looking for a head to chop once she gets out. I feel sorry for the building maintenance guy here. they aren't even really responsible for the elevators, there's an Otis guy that comes out for those, but she _has to_ have a victim if she ever gets caught in the elevator, even if it's only a minor glitch. I try to never be in there with her.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Aphillips said:


> Ok, we have a Siemens gear with 70 amp breakers to the elevators, elevator guys said they need auxiliary contacts at the breakers to communicate back to the battery backup so whenever power is manually disconnected the battery backup cannot move the elevators in case a technician is up there. The breakers have a shunt trip system integrated into them, so I need to know if there is any way to introduce auxiliary contacts to the breakers that we already have in place


...to rely on an auxiliary contact to lockout a batt backup sys is stupid and wrong.

From an electrical safety standpoint, once something is locked out and tagged out, it should be completely impossible to energize, regardless of which scenario occurs . Must be mechanically locked out, not electrically.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

360max said:


> ...to rely on an auxiliary contact to lockout a batt backup sys is stupid and wrong.
> 
> From an electrical safety standpoint, once something is locked out and tagged out, it should be completely impossible to energize, regardless of which scenario occurs . Must be mechanically locked out, not electrically.



there's a little more to it than that.

there is a sequence of logic built into the controller, and the controller needs to know whether or not the unit has been manually locked off, and that is often by means of the disconnect to the unit by virtue of the aux contacts on the handle. this is very common. there is other logic involved, but I am not an elevator man so I can't help you with that. the elevator controller does not want to lower the unit on battery if the manual disco to the unit has been thrown, and that is mainly what this is all about.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Around here the auxiliary contacts on the disconnect in the elevator machine room is all that's needed. Very easy to buy the kit to do that. It's probably the place the mechanic is going to shut off before working on it. I can't see the guy walking to an electric room somewhere to turn off a breaker when the disconnect is already right next to him. 

When will these codes stop? Next you'll need another contact on the service! 

I have seen relays to tell the controller that it was being supplied by generator or normal power. I think that time it had an annunciator light on each floor. Once we had to put a camera on top of the elevator. I can't remember why. I thought it had something to do with being insight of something.


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## Aphillips (Oct 27, 2017)

thanks for the responses guys, we did end up contacting Siemens and thankfully they make a breaker that has both auxiliary contacts and a shunt trip built into it, at the low low price of $750 a piece! I appreciate the feedback and will be using this site as a great resource, happy electron manipulation to all.


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