# Non Due Paying Employees



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Don't they miss out on the other benefits of being a union member that you receive because you are a dues paying member?


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## ghostrank (Dec 15, 2007)

Call your BA, get his opinion


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

If they aren't Union I would agree with Pete, in that they aren't getting benfits either. I would also call your BA and get his side on that one as well.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Gil, are you sure you have the facts right? How did they get a referal from the local without being a member? Are they new members who are either classified as a construction worker or construction electrician. These folks are paided differently than a class A journeyman electrician and their benefit package is also different. Even through you are in a right to work state as I am if the contractor is signority with IBEW they employe only IBEW labor for electrical installations.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Not positive about all of the benefits but they do get some, I know that. 

Yes, some, not all, did get a referral from the local. All are CE's and CW's. I'll have to dive a little deeper as I'd like to know exactly what the deal is.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> Yes, some, not all, did get a referral from the local.


Then I would say that is who you need to talk to.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> Ok, I live in a "right to work" state, so legally no company can enforce employing only union members. At the company I work for there are quite a few people who got the job through the union but never actually signed up, therefore they don't pay dues. I am a due paying IBEW member. It just seems kinda crappy that some people aren't paying their dues for the wages and benefits that the union has negotiated for.
> 
> Anyone else run into this? Am I being a schmuck for paying my dues?


Only you can answer that. In a RTW state, if a union negotiates on behalf of the workers it must include and represent the non-dues paying workers as well, and it ALSO must afford those non-members all of the same rights and benefits of union mermbership.


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## tpr (Jan 10, 2008)

here is a little info from local 481 indianapolis ,in. on rtw(for less)
 
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 *Right-To-Work (For less)* *THE TRUTH ABOUT RIGHT-TO-WORK (FOR LESS) LEGISLATION*​ As a union Electrician would you like to work in a "Right-to-Work" state such as Florida where, *if you can find a union contractor,* the hourly wage in St. Petersburg is only* $16.35 *with a fringe package of *$7.38*?

"Right-to-Work" is a slick slogan designed to trick people into believing that it protects a worker's right to a job. Nothing could be further from the truth. Right-to-Work legislation assures no worker a job, protects no worker against employer bias or retaliation, and undermines the workers' ability to build a strong union that bargains for fair wages and benefits.

Right-to-Work laws are essentially anti-union laws. They are created by a loophole in the National Labor Relations Act, which allows a state to prohibit employers from negotiating a union security clause into a collective bargaining agreement. A union security clause requires all workers who receive the benefits of a collective bargaining agreement to share the cost of that representation, through the payment of union dues. Right-to-Work encourages some workers to ride the backs of their union brother and sisters by benefiting from good wages, benefits and job protections negotiated by the union without sharing the costs of winning and maintaining those benefits. 

This anti-union Right-to-Work movement was started by the National Association of Manufacturers in 1905. Along the way other anti-worker groups such as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and American Farm Bureau joined in. These are the same organizations that *led the fight* *against* the National Labor Relations Act, opposed child labor laws, minimum wage laws, unemployment insurance and worker's compensation. 

The latest group to join in this shameless Right-to-Work movement is the Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) - a nationwide anti-union contractor association. The ABC supported the passage of Right-to-Work in Oklahoma in 2001. Upon passage of Right-to-Work, the ABC claimed it was a true victory and would set a national precedent for other states to follow. 

There are 23 states, which have become Right-to-Work (For-Less) states. Don't be fooled into thinking that this can only happen in those other states. The National Right-to-Work movement has set up shop in Indiana with one goal in mind - eliminate the unions. A bill was introduced in the Indiana legislature in 2004, which would not only make Indiana a Right-to-Work state but also make it a criminal offense for employers to require payment of union dues. 

*Project Labor Agreements* The National Right to Work Committee, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and the Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) - what do these three organizations have in common? They all oppose Project Labor Agreements (PLAs). Why? Because PLAs give every worker on a construction project the right of a collective bargaining agreement.
A PLA is a comprehensive pre-hire collective bargaining agreement. They are a guaranteed right under the National Labor Relations Act. Under a PLA, the basic terms and conditions for labor are established in advance for everyone involved in the project. A PLA becomes a bid specification that covers the most important element of any construction project  the worker.
PLAs date back to the 1938 construction of the Grand Coulee Dam in the state of Washington. NASA used PLAs in the construction of Cape Canaveral, Fl, during the 1960's. PLAs were also used on the Trans-Alaska Pipeline and Disney World. 
In Indiana, PLAs have been used successfully for the past 19 years, on billions of dollars of projects including the Conseco Fieldhouse and the Destec Coal Gasification Project. (See attached for a more complete listing of projects.) Under our free market, the owners of these projects chose to utilize PLAs. They did so because PLAs are a very important tool to ensure on-time and within budget completion of the job. 
In spite of this successful history, the ABC, a small group of non-union contractors, has made outlawing PLAs one of their driving forces. For the past several years, the ABC has been on a crusade across the country challenging PLAs in the courts. Fortunately, they have lost virtually every court challenge. In fact the U.S. Supreme Court, in the Boston Harbor case, ruled unanimously against the ABC and in favor of PLAs. 
After losing their court battles, the ABC has now embarked on a shameless public relations campaign in an attempt to persuade state legislators to outlaw PLAs. They have spent huge sums of money on television and print commercials to deny workers the right of a collective bargaining agreement under a PLA. They have accused any politician who supports PLAs as being in the pocket of big labor. They have even had the nerve to accuse union PLAs of being discriminatory - this coming from the ABC, an organization that in *2004 had only a 0.8% minority enrollment* *rate* in their apprenticeship program.
Collective bargaining and Project Labor Agreements are your rights guaranteed by the National Labor Relations Act and the U.S. Supreme Court. Don't let a few non-union contractors take control of our state legislature and outlaw PLAs. 
 *PROJECTS IN INDIANA BUILT UNDER PLAs*​ 1. Subaru-Isuzu Factory: Lafayette ($500 million dollar project)
2. Circle Centre Mall: Indianapolis ($500 million dollar project)
3. Toyota Truck Assembly: Plant Gibson County, Indiana ($250 million dollar project)
4. Conrad Hilton Hotel: Indianapolis ($90 million dollar project)
5. Conseco Fieldhouse: Indianapolis ($185 million dollar project)
6. Special Bar Quality Mini Mill: Pitsboro ($148 million dollar project)
7. New Castle Correctional Facility ($120 million dollar project) 
8. Indianapolis Marion County Central Library 
($102 million dollar project)
9. Montpelier Generating Project: Northeastern Indiana ($80 million dollar project)
10. Indiana State Museum: Indianapolis ($55.2 million dollar project)
11. Phase IV Expansion of Convention Center: Indianapolis ($45 million dollar project)
12. (NCAA) National Headquarters: Indianapolis, 
($30.2 million dollar project)
13. Combustion Turbine Peaking Station Project: Indianapolis
($30 million dollar project)
14. Dupont Hospital: Northeastern Indiana ($20 million dollar project)
15. RCA Dome Renovation: Indianapolis ($20 million dollar project)
16. Destec Engineering Wabash Coal Gasification Repowering Project:
Terre Haute
17. PSI Wabash River Coal Gasification Project
18. AK Steel Facility Southwestern Indiana
19. Enron Power & Industrial: Lawrence County
20. Hammond City Schools 
21. Bev Pak: Monticello, 
22. Congressional Medal of Honor Plaza: Indianapolis 
23. Indiana Downs Horse Track: Shelbyville,
24. Ivy Tech - Columbus Learning Center: Columbus 
25. Hartland Steel, Inc.: Terre Haute ($80-100 million dollar project)
26. Sullivan Elementary School: Sullivan ($10 million dollar project)
27. Sugar Creek Project: Terre Haute
($250 million dollar project)
28. United States Penitentiary: Terre Haute ($200 million dollar project)
29. Power Generating Station: Washington, Indiana ($100 million dollar project)
*INDIANA'S COMMON WAGE LAW - UNDER ATTACK*​ The Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC), a small group of non-union contractors, is once again trying to cut your wages. There is a crusade to convince our state legislators that the construction of public schools and universities should be exempt from the Common Wage law. Additionally, there is a movement to eliminate *all* public construction under $500,000 from the scope of the Common Wage law.
How soon they forget the Indiana Common Wage rally of 1995, the largest rally ever to be held at a statehouse in the United States. On Tuesday morning, March 14, 1995, over 22,000 working men and women marched on our State Capitol to block efforts by the ABC to make radical changes in the law. Unfortunately, many legislators turned a deaf ear to our concerns and voted to change the law. Only through subsequent law suits, filed by organized labor, did we recover from this legislative injustice.
Currently, the law requires contractors, on government-financed construction projects over $150,000, to pay workers no less than the common wage rate which prevails in that area. Our law was designed to protect workers and contractors from the unscrupulous practice of cutting wages in order to be the low bidder on public construction work. This ensures that competition is based on: efficient management, sound engineering, good design and quality craftsmanship.
When the construction bid phase is underway, all construction contractors have available to them the same material prices. Suppliers put together prices for the materials needed to complete the project, and these prices are then made available to anyone bidding the project. On a public works project, where wages are determined by law, the contract award will not be determined by materials and wages; but instead, by the contractors' ability to maximize efficiency and productivity through their supervisors and workers. Without area wage standards, contractors invariably cut wages to win work. As each new wage-low is reached, it becomes the unofficial ceiling for the next round of bidding. It then becomes a race-to-the-bottom on which contractor can "get away" with paying the lowest wage.
Indiana's Common Wage Law contributes substantially to the stability of the construction industry, which otherwise would not exist. The common wage requirement provides the continuity required for the industry to maintain: craft skills, decent pay scales, privately funded training and health and retirement programs. This benefits all communities, all businesses, and all workers, as well as state and local treasuries.
Other than the greed of a few non-union contractors, why would anyone advocate the elimination of Common Wage on the construction of public schools? We can't afford to take the risk of our children attending schools that were built by low-paid and under-skilled workers. It is time to tell your legislators *NO!* to proposed changes in our Common Wage law.
 *Paycheck Protection* *PAYCHECK PROTECTION LEGISLATION*​ 
Like the shameless "right to work" campaign, the so-called "paycheck protection" movement is an extremist effort aimed at silencing the voice of American workers in the political process. Special interest groups and non-union contractors have joined forces and are pushing to make "paycheck protection" the law of the land. The mastermind of this campaign is Grover Norquist, an extremist and confidant to Newt Gingrich. In an interview with Reason magazine, Norquist declared that his objective is "[to] crush labor unions as a political entity". Their plan is to legislate severe restrictions on union speech that applies to no other organizations, not even large corporations.

Paycheck protection laws place massive reporting and administrative burdens on unions by forcing them to secure annual written approval from every single member before spending any portion of his or her dues on educational activities. These "educational activities" include informing members about issues and candidates, and communicating with government officials regarding prevailing wage, workers compensation, unemployment benefits, and project labor agreements.

"Paycheck protection" unfairly singles out unions, leaving big business and anti-union associations unaffected. Huge corporations such as Enron, Haliburton, and WorldCom have spent millions of dollars on lobbying without any special consent from shareholders. Special-interest groups like the Chamber of Commerce and the Associated Builder and Contractors (ABC) - a nationwide non-union contractor association - do not obtain special authorization from their dues-paying members before lobbying in support of anti-worker legislation. 

Rather than helping workers, "paycheck protection" is an effort by special interest groups to punish the unions for their successful efforts to enact workplace protections. The unions have led the fight for the 40-hour workweek, the eight-hour day, minimum wage, occupational safety and health laws, the Fair Labor Standards Act, workers compensation, unemployment insurance, and the ban on child labor. If these special interest groups can silence the voice of unions, through "paycheck protection" legislation, they will be free to pursue their anti-worker agenda of destroying the unions and driving down wages and benefits for American workers.

***PAYCHECK PROTECTION IS POLITICAL PAYBACK***​ *AGAINST*​ *UNIONS AND AMERICAN WORKERS*​ 


 *Lockout Tags* © Copyright 2003-2008, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local Union #481, All Rights Reserved.​


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Wow, good info, thanks.

After asking around some more from the more settled down guys, if you're not a union member you get the wages and insurance coverage for themselves, nothing else. But those are the 2 big ones IMO. They don't get the retirement packages or full family coverage if they are a JW, which if non-union you can't be classified as a JW.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> Wow, good info, thanks.
> 
> After asking around some more from the more settled down guys, if you're not a union member you get the wages and insurance coverage for themselves, nothing else. But those are the 2 big ones IMO. They don't get the retirement packages or full family coverage if they are a JW, which if non-union you can't be classified as a JW.


OK, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. :whistling2:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

gilbequick said:


> Wow, good info, thanks.
> 
> After asking around some more from the more settled down guys, if you're not a union member you get the wages and insurance coverage for themselves, nothing else. But those are the 2 big ones IMO. They don't get the retirement packages or full family coverage if they are a JW, which if non-union you can't be classified as a JW.


 Lawnguy, what he is saying:


Non Union: 
Wages (hourly the same as Union)
Medical insurance for themselves
Position "craft worker" not journeyman

Union:
Wages
Full medical for self and family
Annuity
Retirement

Clear enough?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I feel very fortunate not to live in the 'other' America where I could have the right-to-work. With rights like that, who needs punishment?

Anyways, I feel that any way at all the IBEW can have a positive effect on the industry is better than having nothing at all.

Here we are at 90% on share, I can't begin to imagine other places where its down around 5%.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Lawnguy, what he is saying:
> 
> 
> Non Union:
> ...


That is clear enough, but I don't understand how/why this happens. I suppose in a RTW state it simply evolved from something. It could be that the IBEW simply picked up these "craft workers" and represent them under a different bargianing unit other than the construction division.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That is clear enough, but I don't understand how/why this happens. I suppose in a RTW state it simply evolved from something. It could be that the IBEW simply picked up these "craft workers" and represent them under a different bargianing unit other than the construction division.


You don't have "tradesmen" or "B" book guys in your local?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> I feel very fortunate not to live in the 'other' America where I could have the right-to-work. With rights like that, who needs punishment?
> 
> Anyways, I feel that any way at all the IBEW can have a positive effect on the industry is better than having nothing at all.
> 
> Here we are at 90% on share, I can't begin to imagine other places where its down around 5%.


 
The local Gil works out of is down around 3% to 5% share and there are a lot of people not paying there dues.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

There sure are, because you don't have to to be with a "union company". They'll hire cheap labor and keep them around because they're cheap, due paying or not. Kinda chaps my ass. If you want to stay in the CE CW program and not progress well then go ahead and screw yourself in the long run, but pay your dues, man, like everybody else.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That is clear enough, but I don't understand how/why this happens. I suppose in a RTW state it simply evolved from something. It could be that the IBEW simply picked up these "craft workers" and represent them under a different bargianing unit other than the construction division.


No. It is simply a function of the RTW laws.



gilbequick said:


> There sure are, because you don't have to to be with a "union company". They'll hire cheap labor and keep them around because they're cheap, due paying or not. Kinda chaps my ass. If you want to stay in the CE CW program and not progress well then go ahead and screw yourself in the long run, but pay your dues, man, like everybody else.


Even this is harmful to a union though. YOU are paying for these guys to have any representation. They are *ucking you big time.

I am not a violent person but I could simply not work in a situation such as this. It is like the suckass that is able to screw off all the time and recieve the same pay as the guys who bust their ass. The suckass is getting paid because all the other guys make money for the company but the suckass gets to reap the benefits of thier work without working.

RTW work laws are only (at most) 61 yyears old. The amendment allowing RTW passed congress in 1947. It is still an evolving situation.

Until recently, the union was required to represent a non-union employee just as they would a union member in greivances of the contract. At least one state has since allowed the interpretation of the law to support fees or charges for that time the union does represent them. A huge plus for the dues paying members of the union.

Here is one snippet of a website I ran across concerning these laws:



> 1986 — Idaho becomes 21st state to pass right-to-work. After passage, the average annual wage of carpenters there dropped from $33,000 to $22,000.


that is a full 1/3 reduction in pay. 

from the same website:



> None of the 22 right-to-work states have an average annual pay level above the national average. When wages fall, state tax revenues fall — that means less funding for education, transportation and other vital programs. That's why right-to-work is bad not just for union members, but for everyone.


One of the biggest problems I see in RTW states is the "anti-union" workers never seem to realize they are actually causing their own wages to be reduced. Sounds pretty dumb to me.

Here is a link to a site about Michigan and the fight for RTW laws there. It is from the perspective of the RTW proponant. If you folks believe the slanted repsonses to the questions posted, we are in a sad sorry state and destined to become the new Mexico, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and on down the line of the home of outsourced employment at the lowest costs possible.

http://www.educationreport.org/article.aspx?ID=9180


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I feel very fortunate not to live in the 'other' America where I could have the right-to-work. With rights like that, who needs punishment?
> 
> Anyways, I feel that any way at all the IBEW can have a positive effect on the industry is better than having nothing at all.
> 
> Here we are at 90% on share, I can't begin to imagine other places where its down around 5%.


 
Yeah the rights guaranteed us as Americans are way overblown.

We could have a much safer country if we just trashed a few more rights.


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## kapakahi (Feb 12, 2007)

Unions have been over all a good thing for America. When a licensing board is dominated by Union members and makes it impossible to become a licensee without legally challenging the exam answers then I have an issue with that. Everyone has a right to attain certification and open their own business. As an inspector I have seen Union Jobs that were good and also loaded with violations. You have to be tough to stand up to these guys and say, "Sorry, you have to bring that up to compliance. I don't care if you have to do it again." I have also seen it in the merit shops. So, the question boils down to representation as a collective bargaining tool. There is power in numbers. The union does get its hands dirty by doing dirty things. Flatting my tires or turning my truck over does not help any situation. When I have a small job and the Union has a large job and we are working side by side I don't think there is any right to give me a hard time. We are doing the same quality of work. The Unions get the majority of the large work, I am not taking away from anyone's wallet what is not also rightfully mine. I have heard the claim that merit shops are taking food away from their table. Free enterprise means you have the rights equally. This is assuming that you are properly licensed, insured, etc. But don't raise your hand against me, nor bad mouth my right to business. This does not build America. 
PLAs are not a guarantee of meeting project deadlines. They are a guarantee that merit shops will not get a chance to bid the same job. Remember, with a PLAs, all shops have to show they are meeting the prevailing wages. However, that prevailing wage is supposed to be determined by an average across the board, not only across union shops, but the entire trade. Whenever there is animosity in the trade, especially between merit shops and union shops, and it spills into politics, we have a situation that is not bringing us together as citizens but rather slitting us and "deunionizing" us. As Americans we have enough on our plate to have to deal with terrorism and the likes of people in the World who like to see America slide into the sea. When we are together, and not fighting, we stand a lot better chance of surviving the agressors fo the World.


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## shunt trip (Jan 15, 2009)

*Paying dues*

If they are not members in good standing they probably are not entitled to all benefits. Such as NEBF, medical plan, training, ETC. 
No, you are not a schmuck. You are trying to establish a standard for all the industry.
I lived in a RTW state while working for a union shop many times.On a recent Job, The customer(hard core Non Union businessman) could not find a non union contractor to supply 40 electricians for a year. The same customer had our shop wire his 25K square foot custom home. He had the choice, we won him over. Although he still runs his business's Non Union. 
Back when Idaho went RTW my employer at the time said we would be fired if we did not vote for it, I did not vote for it. & I did not get fired. How would he know what I voted for? Left him for a better job and never looked back. He has huge turn over in employees still.


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

kapakahi said:


> Unions have been over all a good thing for America. When a licensing board is dominated by Union members and makes it impossible to become a licensee without legally challenging the exam answers then I have an issue with that. Everyone has a right to attain certification and open their own business. As an inspector I have seen Union Jobs that were good and also loaded with violations. You have to be tough to stand up to these guys and say, "Sorry, you have to bring that up to compliance. I don't care if you have to do it again." I have also seen it in the merit shops. So, the question boils down to representation as a collective bargaining tool. There is power in numbers. The union does get its hands dirty by doing dirty things. Flatting my tires or turning my truck over does not help any situation. When I have a small job and the Union has a large job and we are working side by side I don't think there is any right to give me a hard time. We are doing the same quality of work. The Unions get the majority of the large work, I am not taking away from anyone's wallet what is not also rightfully mine. I have heard the claim that merit shops are taking food away from their table. Free enterprise means you have the rights equally. This is assuming that you are properly licensed, insured, etc. But don't raise your hand against me, nor bad mouth my right to business. This does not build America.
> PLAs are not a guarantee of meeting project deadlines. They are a guarantee that merit shops will not get a chance to bid the same job. Remember, with a PLAs, all shops have to show they are meeting the prevailing wages. However, that prevailing wage is supposed to be determined by an average across the board, not only across union shops, but the entire trade. Whenever there is animosity in the trade, especially between merit shops and union shops, and it spills into politics, we have a situation that is not bringing us together as citizens but rather slitting us and "deunionizing" us. As Americans we have enough on our plate to have to deal with terrorism and the likes of people in the World who like to see America slide into the sea. When we are together, and not fighting, we stand a lot better chance of surviving the agressors fo the World.


I agree that anyone with the knowledge they need should be able to get their liscense, as far as challenging questions....Why would you have to ...you either pass or fail . Every shop has it's quirks....you're non-union , you're union , or you're union but opperate like a non-union shop . I'm not saying all no-union guys out there are crappy electricians , the contractors just expect them to work after hours....no pay , no OT , and kiss a$$ . One of the non union shops up here pays $15 an hour for his "foreman" who has been there for 20 yrs , no medical , no retirement..hell you could be the manager at Mc Donalds for that price !! All non-union does is bring wages down , which affects everything . Would you bust your a$$ 12 hours a day for $15 an hour ? Would you take shortcuts because your boss said the job is taking him under . It happens quite frequently here.....They can under bid because they try to get away with crap that is not up to code .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> I feel very fortunate not to live in the 'other' America where I could have the right-to-work. With rights like that, who needs punishment?


Yeah why should we have choices, lets all bend over and take what YOU feel is good for all. HMMMMMM hell no more America land of the FREE.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

unionwirewoman said:


> ...I'm not saying all no-union guys out there are crappy electricians , the contractors just expect them to work after hours....no pay , no OT , and kiss a$$ ...


 That's an awful big paintbrush you are using there. I bet you would not like it if that same brush were used on IBEW.

There are merit shops in my area that must be doing something right becuase I have rarely been able to steal any of their labor and have tried more than once.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *unionwirewoman*
> _...I'm not saying all no-union guys out there are crappy electricians , the contractors just expect them to work after hours....no pay , no OT , and kiss a$$ ..._




_You have been reading too much union propaganda._


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

unionwirewoman said:


> I agree that anyone with the knowledge they need should be able to get their liscense, as far as challenging questions....Why would you have to ...you either pass or fail . Every shop has it's quirks....you're non-union , you're union , or you're union but opperate like a non-union shop . I'm not saying all no-union guys out there are crappy electricians , the contractors just expect them to work after hours....no pay , no OT , and kiss a$$ . One of the non union shops up here pays $15 an hour for his "foreman" who has been there for 20 yrs , no medical , no retirement..hell you could be the manager at Mc Donalds for that price !! All non-union does is bring wages down , which affects everything . Would you bust your a$$ 12 hours a day for $15 an hour ? Would you take shortcuts because your boss said the job is taking him under . It happens quite frequently here.....They can under bid because they try to get away with crap that is not up to code .


Wow! Just wow. 

If this is happening it is the worker's own fault. If you work OT for straight time it is YOUR fault. If you work and don't get paid it is YOUR fault. 
If you are being treated like sh*t for more than a day or two, it is YOUR fault. If you are expected to kiss ass and get treated bad because you don't, it is YOUR fault. (YOUR being the worker's fault).
I say it is your fault because that means you are not doing anything about it. Complain, report the conditions to the labor board, QUIT, whatever. Just don't live with it and bitch about it!
I have seen the repercussions of a union worker complaining, especially about the wrong person. I don't want any part of those politics either!


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

The only thing more dumb than not paying OT is not paying income tax and while I have seen a few go out in flames not paying their taxes, I have never seen any contractor not pay OT when it's due… and if they did they would not stay in business after they tried that stunt. Its amazing what a little indoctrination will lead you to believe.

I expect some of my guys to work after hours, its just part of the job, but because it’s OT most of them ask for it and some even kiss ass to get it.

Oh and I run a union shop too.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> The only thing more dumb than not paying OT is not paying income tax


Unless you are a member of the new presidents cabinet then you get a pass because you are needed.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

unionwirewoman said:


> . *All non-union does is bring wages down* , which affects everything . Would you bust your a$$ 12 hours a day for $15 an hour ? Would you take shortcuts because your boss said the job is taking him under . It happens quite frequently here.....They can under bid because they try to get away with crap that is not up to code .




No, what brings the *union* down is the lazy a$$ workers within the union.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

p_logix said:


> No, what brings the *union* down is the lazy a$$ workers within the union.


Uhhhh, the lazy guys started going home a couple weeks ago :thumbup:
Soon the guys who work are going to be at home.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> The only thing more dumb than not paying OT is not paying income tax and while I have seen a few go out in flames not paying their taxes, I have never seen any contractor not pay OT when it's due… and if they did they would not stay in business after they tried that stunt. Its amazing what a little indoctrination will lead you to believe.
> 
> I expect some of my guys to work after hours, its just part of the job, but because it’s OT most of them ask for it and some even kiss ass to get it.
> 
> Oh and I run a union shop too.


Obviously not a contractor but WalMart tried to get away with it and they are still in business.

I have seen contractors refuse OT to it's employees. They often do not report it because they know they will not have a job after they do. They fear their employers so the egregious acts continue unabated.

I have seen a company refuse to cover an employee injury. His statement was, "I'll spend my last dollar fighting paying the bill before I willingly pay". One big problem is, although this particular guy is legal, many of his co-workers aren't and he knows if he says anything, his buddies are going back to Mexico so he keeps his mouth shut.

Both of those examples are non-union situations.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> Ok, I live in a "right to work" state, so legally no company can enforce employing only union members. At the company I work for there are quite a few people who got the job through the union but never actually signed up, therefore they don't pay dues. I am a due paying IBEW member. It just seems kinda crappy that some people aren't paying their dues for the wages and benefits that the union has negotiated for.
> 
> Anyone else run into this? Am I being a schmuck for paying my dues?


I think what you have is a scab:
Someone that enjoys the benefits without paying dues. Here its 3% what is it in NC?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

nap said:


> I have seen a company refuse to cover an employee injury. His statement was, "I'll spend my last dollar fighting paying the bill before I willingly pay". One big problem is, although this particular guy is legal, many of his co-workers aren't and he knows if he says anything, his buddies are going back to Mexico so he keeps his mouth shut.


That goes both ways though. Why is it always the guy who has only been with the company for a month who gets hurt and has to go on disability? Meanwhile you see him at the mall or Home Depot every other day. :whistling2:
Or the guy who told other employees about how his back has always hurt, yet that box he lifted (on the job) the other day really did him in. :whistling2:

I know a contractor who had a guy fall off a very low roof. I don't know the exact circumstances, but I DO know no negligence was involved.
Well, this guy has "transportation issues" (what does THAT tell you?) so the GC (non-union BTW) has a guy pick him up at home, take him to rehab, and then back home. EVERY week. They have been doing this longer than the guy was working on the job. 

It goes both ways. There are shyster contractors and shyster workers who are only out for a free ride. We ALL know this is true.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> I think what you have is a scab:


And if IMO if you use this terminology LOOK IN THE MIRRO cause it is YOU, In my experience small minded, pretty low on the scale of knowledge electricians use these terms to bolster their manhood and SEVERE lack of knowledge.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> It goes both ways. There are shyster contractors and shyster workers who are only out for a free ride. We ALL know this is true.


For sure. In this case, I do know the guy was injured. My point being that with a union, there is that support so there is less fear when it comes to reporting such things and carrying through with the legal aspect if need be.

Some of my favorite TV programs were those where an investigator went out and films some schmuck claiming some injury playing golf or carrying roof shingles all the while claiming he can't work.


Did you see the one about the fireman that applied for a disability pension due to an OJT injury yet he was an active bodybuilder?

from the doctor that stated the guy was disabled:

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2008/07/22/92085.htm

general info:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=60216&sectionId=46

I saw an interview with either a guy this fireman trained with or maybe it was even his trainer. He said the training brought him back from the injury.

To that I say,"Great. Now he can get back to work"

btw, the fireman is apparently an inspector. No real active fireman duties.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> For sure. In this case, I do know the guy was injured. My point being that with a union, there is that support so there is less fear when it comes to reporting such things and carrying through with the legal aspect if need be.


I worked with a guy that fell off a transformer the employer and work mans comp. fought this guy every inch of the way (union member, union contractor) he finally got a lawyer on his own and won the case. Then had to sue again to get the money awarded him as the insurance company was dragging their feet in paying. The lawyers took a sizable chunk of the money.

The point is union or open shop there are dishonest folks everywhere.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Back on topic...

From an employers perspective RTW employees put us in an awkward position and creates extra work for HR and PR dealing with special rules for special people. Although it can and has gotten me into trouble I avoid RTW employees but only because I have not found one good enough to warrant the headache.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Someone that enjoys the benefits without paying dues. Here its 3% what is it in NC?


4% plus monthly dues.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> And if IMO if you use this terminology LOOK IN THE MIRRO cause it is YOU, In my experience small minded, pretty low on the scale of knowledge electricians use these terms to bolster their manhood and SEVERE lack of knowledge.


Are you telling me to look at my manhood in the mirror?

Scab (Australian slang), a person who obtains things for free, especially from verge collections or giveaways from friends (a practice known as *scabbing*). [1]


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

i always thought a " scab " was someone who crossed a unions picket line during a strike.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

And I am telling you in my opinion anyone who uses this terminology referring to another human being is a small minded person. TAKE it or LEAVE it.

I have NEVER worked worth a "brother" worth his salt (they knew how and what he/she were doing) that needed to trash other workers trying to make a living in their choosen trade.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

I wonder how many of you, that are so angry about these guys not paying their dues, look the other way when the poor little illegal immigrant doesn't pay his taxes but still gets all the benefits of living in this country.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

CFL said:


> I wonder how many of you, that are so angry about these guys not paying their dues, look the other way when the poor little illegal immigrant doesn't pay his taxes but still gets all the benefits of living in this country.


 Excellent point, I could not care less whether or not a union man pays his dues, but illegal immigrants not paying taxes and while they use our services annoys me.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I am required by law to post this on two of my jobs.

---------------------------------------- 

* Notice to Employees*

Under Federal law, employees cannot be required to join a union or maintain membership in a union in order to retain their jobs. Under certain conditions, the law permits a union and an employer to enter into a union-security agreement requiring employees to pay uniform periodic dues and initiation fees. However, employees who are not union members can object to the use of their payments for certain purposes and can only be required to pay their share of union costs relating to collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment. 

If you do not want to pay that portion of dues or fees used to support activities not related to collective bargaining, contract administration, or grievance adjustment, you are entitled to an appropriate reduction in your payment. If you believe that you have been required to pay dues or fees used in part to support activities not related to collective bargaining, contract administration, or grievance adjustment, you may be entitled to a refund and to an appropriate reduction in future payments. 

For further information concerning your rights, you may wish to contact the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) either at one of its Regional offices or at the following address or toll free number: 

National Labor Relations Board Division of Information 1099 14th Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20570 1-866-667-6572 1-866-316-6572 (TTY) 

To locate the nearest NLRB office, see NLRB's website at http://www.nlrb.gov.

--------------------------------------- 

For the record if a person objects for political, religious, or personal reason to the big money contributions a union gives political campaigns and such, I believe they should have the right to a refund of that portion of their dues and nobody is a scab for standing up for what they believe in.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CFL said:


> I wonder how many of you, that are so angry about these guys not paying their dues, look the other way when the poor little illegal immigrant doesn't pay his taxes but still gets all the benefits of living in this country.


 
Actually quite a few pay taxes and FICA and will never reap the benefits of FICA (I hope cause they are illegal) But Mr. O may change this.

Mr O is for

Socializing our health care. Not good for the brothers.
Sanctuary cities and not deporting illegals. Not good for the brothers.
Bringing the Cuban Muslims here. Not good for any of us
and taxing fire arms owners out of ownership. Not good for second amendments advocates which are a sizable of our hunting brothers/

Tell me again why you union bosses want you to support O?


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

brian john said:


> Tell me again why you union bosses want you to support O?


'cuz the other guy was worse.

It's always a lesser of 2 evils. There is no perfect candidate.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nap said:


> 'cuz the other guy was worse.
> 
> It's always a lesser of 2 evils. There is no perfect candidate.


 
That may be true but that is not why.


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

CFL said:


> I wonder how many of you, that are so angry about these guys not paying their dues, look the other way when the poor little illegal immigrant doesn't pay his taxes but still gets all the benefits of living in this country.


 
If (one) was upset with non-dues paying workers, why would anyone think (they) would be OK with illegals?


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> Actually quite a few pay taxes and FICA and will never reap the benefits of FICA (I hope cause they are illegal) But Mr. O may change this.
> 
> Mr O is for
> 
> ...


There is one person to blame for O winning, that complete a-hole GW.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Hey, I am grateful Hilary did not win. I think its always important count your blessings when things don't work out like you thought they should.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> Actually quite a few pay taxes and FICA and will never reap the benefits of FICA (I hope cause they are illegal) But Mr. O may change this.
> 
> Mr O is for
> 
> ...


Bro, you gotta stop listening to the AM radio entertainment network!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Bro, you gotta stop listening to the AM radio entertainment network!


 
How would it cost you 875 a month.

Sancturary cities are the union strongholds you want the city you built and pay taxes too to under mind your work base.

The Cuban muslims are the Guantanamo friendly's.

Guns issue is the new taxes on ammo he is proposing, Like cigarettes he will try to tax them out of existence. Oh O added .62 cents to cigs this week.

Did not say I supported the GOP, but I sure do not support the Dems. In addition this financial mess we are in is a byproduct of the housing market failure and blame for that goes to both sides trying to create financing that allows the POOR into the American dream.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

brian john said:


> That may be true but that is not why.


that's why I voted for him. I find him far from ideal but JM was even further from that point. 3rd party candidates are a waste to vote for or even put in office as they are not effective due to the political brotherhoods and do not have the political support given to members of a congressmans own party.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

knaack134 said:


> If (one) was upset with non-dues paying workers, why would anyone think (they) would be OK with illegals?


I have a different perspective than most union workers because I live in a RTW state. The union has a very small presence here. It's my personal observation that most pro-union/union workers (around here) are lazy liberal whiners. They tend to buy into anything the liberal media puts out there. There is this strange mentality that exists among them that we are to feel sorry for the law breaking, "hard working" illegal. Obviously, my opinion is going to anger alot you, but what do you expect when you align yourselves with such polticians. With so few in our local unions it tends to attract only a specific type of individual (the kind I already mentioned), and like I said, it's my personal observation.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

CFL said:


> I have a different perspective than most union workers because I live in a RTW state. The union has a very small presence here. It's my personal observation that most pro-union/union workers (around here) are lazy liberal whiners. They tend to buy into anything the liberal media puts out there. There is this strange mentality that exists among them that we are to feel sorry for the law breaking, "hard working" illegal. Obviously, my opinion is going to anger alot you, but what do you expect when you align yourselves with such polticians. With so few in our local unions it tends to attract only a specific type of individual (the kind I already mentioned), and like I said, it's my personal observation.


I dont think you can get any SE than I am. I have a whole different perspective than you do.
You might think guys should be jumping around like a bunch of monkeys on a job to get work done and I understand that mentality.
The other side of the coin is working smart and planning your work. I have seen the most incredible productivity out of the Union guys we have here. We plan the work, make sure they have the tools and materials they need and they will burn up as much pipe and wire you can feed them.:notworthy:
If someone shows up that is perceived to be lazy, or a troublemaker, the guys take care of it themselves. Believe me it doesn't take very long at all.
I make my living estimating and managing projects. I would starve if I had to work a bunch of untrained wannabes. 

You gotta turn off that AM entertainment radio!


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