# Where's all the union work?



## McClary’s Electrical

Sounds pretty par for the course in most locals.


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## chicken steve

truer words are seldom posted LR

i've had the pleasure of working with old ibew salts

you folks are good sparky's, can't take that away from you

your history of setting standards speaks for itself, and is the priveledge of any of us in the field

it's just this internal system i keep hearing about that seems so detrimental

~CS~


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## lightning rod

Ya, I am in my mid-thirtys and I am apparently all washed up. The freakin hall says that they know "it's hard out there". I can see that as they carry around their coffee cups all day in their offices, I don't think they laid anyone off at the hall even though we have had about 35-40% of our guys off for years. Just as long as the dues keep coming in they don't care. You know when the union will care? When people like me say "I have had enough of your crap, I quit. I'm not paying dues anymore." Once the hall starts having a hard time making payroll to everyone employed there, then they will say whoa, whoa, whoa we gotta do something. Maybe we shouldn't have hung 35% of our members out to dry after all. I'll bet that then they will find a way to get more people work and share the work with all members instead of just a select group.


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## brian john

I believe all locals are different and how much work they have most likely effects how they operate. In tough times if you have less than stand up guys running the hall you could get a system that is hardly fair.

If I was in your shoes and unfortunately there are tons of guys in the same boat, I would try to find where the IBEW has work and try to get on there. If that is not possible I would find an open shop and try to get work there, it might be better if the open shop work was not in your locals territory. Though the added cost of travel may make that unrealistic.

I assume you have a house and family with all the major obligations that go with that?

I do not think it is good for you mentality to be out of work, some job, any job is better than no job.

Also if you get a open shop job, no matter what crap you might see or lower pay, keep your yap shut. They do not want to hear it and it will only ferment bad feelings against the IBEW.


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## Master Apprentice

Time to go on a book signing tour.


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## lightning rod

been doing the book signing tour. only work near here is north dakota, and as I am sure most of you know, there is some work you can get out there but good luck finding a place to live. Can't take a job if ya can't find a place to live. 
If there were rooms up there all the jobs would be filled within a couple days. I love the part though that we(the unemployed) are forced to travel the country looking for work so we are not competing against our working brothers. There is no more brotherhood, it's everyone out for themselves. If this were really a brotherhood, then the brothers in your home local would take turns working and give everyone a shot at equal work time. How about that, then the guys who were off can build up some money and replentish their unemployment, medical, and other accounts. Mean while the guys who have been working steady would have full unemployment and medical paid for still. Then they could go back to work for a while and so on. THIS would be a TRUE BROTHERHOOD!!! Right now we just have a (non-union)union hall. We unemployed IBEW members have no rights, benefits or any reason to even stay in the union as far as I can see. As long as we keep paying our dues thats all that matters to the halls.


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## local134gt

lightning rod said:


> Mean while the guys who have been working steady would have full unemployment and medical paid for still. Then they could go back to work for a while and so on. THIS would be a TRUE BROTHERHOOD!!! Right now we just have a (non-union)union hall. We unemployed IBEW members have no rights, benefits or any reason to even stay in the union as far as I can see. As long as we keep paying our dues thats all that matters to the halls.


I would say this issue goes well beyond the Unions, this is a problem with humanity. The majority of people out there do not care about anybody but themselves, and sadly this probably won't change till you and I are long gone (if ever)


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## cccp sparky

The good news is that your workings has made the moneys to pay for all of a dues money. Not much moneys left over, if only the two months a year, for a living expenses. But dues is paid back, yes?

Of course, CCCP's loyalty has its limits....


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## 87Electric

Some of us been in your shoes. It doesnt matter if your the hardest worker, all that matters is who put you there. Sometimes you may have to ask the agent several times for help! It may not work but keep trying. Be ready to help them also...they like to have control Its what keeps them in power.


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## jordan_paul

Wow, just wow.

Ask the steady's how they haven't been laid off. Then do what they do. Maybe banking hours (which is a good thing) and working for straight time isn't a bad idea after all.

If you wanted to work, you'd work. Here's some places listed in North Dakota to live:

http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/apartments-for-rent/?catId=100037

http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/housing/?catId=100034&nCatId=100043

http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/rooms-roommates/?catId=100042

98 places in total. Even if 98 places were a bust, buy a crappy tow-behind trailer and park it in a campground close to the job. Or go to the next state where there's work. There's no excuse for working 8 months total in 4 years if you're as good as you say you are.


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## lightning rod

WOW, spoken like a true brother. Whine because you have had to take a few days off and haven't had a full forty every week. Its people like this that are ruining the brotherhood. Banking hours is against union bylaws, but I guess it's all about what is the best thing for YOU and screw the rest of your brothers huh? As long as your ass is covered, doesn't matter how many people you step on in the process right. Let me guess, another organized guy right??? These are the people that bitch because they have to take their ITO week of vacation on occation when the contractor says and its not when they had their big vacation planned. I don't know how many times I have heard these guys say, "I can't afford to take this week off and still have my other weeks off", if they are guys who actually take the time off.


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## lightning rod

Oh yea the biggie, working straight time is a good idea instead of time&half or double time also huh??? Keep stabbing yourself and all of us in the back and soon we will all be working straight time 7 days a week. moron. It's a race to the bottom and we have already started.


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## brian john

lightning rod said:


> WOW, spoken like a true brother. Whine because you have had to take a few days off and haven't had a full forty every week. Its people like this that are ruining the brotherhood. Banking hours is against union bylaws, but I guess it's all about what is the best thing for YOU and screw the rest of your brothers huh? As long as your ass is covered, doesn't matter how many people you step on in the process right. Let me guess, another organized guy right??? These are the people that bitch because they have to take their ITO week of vacation on occation when the contractor says and its not when they had their big vacation planned. I don't know how many times I have heard these guys say, "I can't afford to take this week off and still have my other weeks off", if they are guys who actually take the time off.


After your first post in this thread this post makes NO SENSE. But taking a slam at organized men because you seem to think you are some high and mighty electrician because you came in through the apprenticeship is arrogant and shows a certain bigotry and ignorance. You really should rethink your assessment of other electricians.


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## lightning rod

So Brian you think it is a good idea to have IBEW members working for straight time when they should be making more and banking hours is fine with you also huh????? I don't know how they run your locals but here in MN that is a huge NO NO... Maybe as a contractor its just fine for you though?


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## brian john

lightning rod said:


> So Brian you think it is a good idea to have IBEW members working for straight time when they should be making more and banking hours is fine with you also huh????? I don't know how they run your locals but here in MN that is a huge NO NO... Maybe as a contractor its just fine for you though?


I operate a union shop by my locals rules and in 26 years have had no issues. My issue with your post is you rant about organized members, like they are not your equal but something beneath you, seems to be a real brotherhood attitude.


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## jordan_paul

lightning rod said:


> WOW, spoken like a true brother. Whine because you have had to take a few days off and haven't had a full forty every week. Its people like this that are ruining the brotherhood. Banking hours is against union bylaws, but I guess it's all about what is the best thing for YOU and screw the rest of your brothers huh?


How could my banking hours be screwing you, or the rest of the "brothers?" It's one of the stupidest bylaws in that book. 



lightning rod said:


> As long as your ass is covered, doesn't matter how many people you step on in the process right.


It is all about me. If I was laid off, how many 'brothers" would step up and make my truck payments? I have to look out for number one. So if that means being buddies with the boss, having the best tools, working fast, not complaining like you are, showing up early, staying a few minutes late than I'll do it. 



lightning rod said:


> Let me guess, another organized guy right??? These are the people that bitch because they have to take their ITO week of vacation on occation when the contractor says and its not when they had their big vacation planned. I don't know how many times I have heard these guys say, "I can't afford to take this week off and still have my other weeks off", if they are guys who actually take the time off.


Why should I take time off for vacation? If I wanted to take my vacation pay and work right through the year whats so bad about that? And I have moved my vacation time when it dosen't mesh with my companies schedule. For instance I asked for a week off to go up to my families cabin. My boss said he had a big job comming up and that he really needs my help on it. That wasn't a problem, I worked that week and took my week off later on.



lightning rod said:


> Oh yea the biggie, working straight time is a good idea instead of time&half or double time also huh??? Keep stabbing yourself and all of us in the back and soon we will all be working straight time 7 days a week. moron. It's a race to the bottom and we have already started.


Alot of time I can't bill myself out for time/half or double time. If job one lasts 5 hours, and job two lasts 5.5 hours, I "should get" 2.5 hours of OT right? My boss can't charge customer #2 the OT rate because we were only there for 5.5 hours. If we took the hard line and said we had to have the OT my boss would loose money. If he looses money too many times he will go tits up. If he goes tits up then 6 guys will be out of work. How is that working in anyones favor? 

Stabbing ourselves in the back IS taking the hardline, that's why we have such crappy market share right now. If we actually worked with the people who puts food on our tables we would be farther ahead then we are now. The race to the bottom started when "our brothers" decided to screw over the companies we work for.

Does it make you mad that I pay 3 dollars a week into a "shop fund" with the boss and other guys? Keep in mind that the owner of my company manages this money too . And that I use my personal cell phone for work related phone calls? And that the odd time I have put a a bit of material in my truck as I was on my way to a job that was close to my house? The problem with YOU union brothers is that you just want, want, want and take, take, take. Working for anyone in any industry is a give and take relationship.

Like I said before, if you wanted to work you would find it. I asked a few guys I work with what is up with a J-Man that has only worked 8 months in a 4 year period. They all said that he is eaither lazy or useless, there is work out there, sometimes you have to travel for it. Saying there's no where to live near where the work is, is a poor excuse.


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## knowshorts

lightning rod said:


> So Brian you think it is a good idea to have IBEW members working for straight time when they should be making more and banking hours is fine with you also huh????? I don't know how they run your locals but here in MN that is a huge NO NO... Maybe as a contractor its just fine for you though?


Do you know this for a fact? It's most likely hearsay.


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## 87Electric

I can feel for op. Its tough out there. If you have been gain fully employed during the the last 4 years consider yourself lucky and blessed. Not everyone unemployed is lazy! The work will come back its just when......I have traveled for work,and can tell you its not easy when you have kids...


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## jordan_paul

87Electric said:


> I can feel for op. Its tough out there. If you have been gain fully employed during the the last 4 years consider yourself lucky and blessed. Not everyone unemployed is lazy! The work will come back its just when......*I have traveled for work,and can tell you its not easy when you have kids*...


You're damn right it's tough. But would you rather travel knowing you're able to feed your kids giving them a good way of life, or live on the government handout while living in substandard conditions but be able to see your kids 7 days a week? When they get older they will understand. Growing up until I was about 12 I barely knew my father, he was always working nights, so I only seen him on the weekends. I know now why he was never around, he was working his balls off to keep a roof over our heads!


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## cccp sparky

I have my doubt that the lightning rod is a quality electrician.

He is probably the brothers who is only employed when contractors needs a warm body to hang out on a job.

No one is entitled to be a employed by ibew agreement only. If no work availables by agreement, seek work elsewheres. If waiting more than six months, you waiting too long. Only brothers who waiting so long is stuck in couch lock. Couch lock makes for a low quality installer after too long.


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## lightning rod

Hey you guys can justify your actions any way you want to justify what you do. I take issue with "brothers" who do not go by the union rules and skirt the laws by justifying it one way or another. How would you feel if you were laid off and knew there were guys banking hours and getting full checks 3 weeks a month but had to sacrafice that one week a month. It would sound like a joke to you wouldn't it. Then you have others who call you lazy when they no nothing about you or how often you have worked out of town, pretty piss poor excuse of a brother and a human being to me and most. This is the reason why the ibew is going down the toilet right there. Thank you to the morons on here who prove the reasons why the ibew is failing its members. My only hope is that what comes around goes around and bites you right in the ass. Why don't you guys just go back to your non union shops, it would save you paying dues.


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## brian john

Lighting Rod back to your basic issue, work, there is a union member that watches these post but rarely post Brother Noah. he may be able to help you, he knows a WHOLE LOT about traveling and where the work is. I understand your frustration but taking it out on other electricians will not get you a job.

Good luck.


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## Island Electric

jordan_paul said:


> Wow, just wow.
> 
> Ask the steady's how they haven't been laid off. Then do what they do. Maybe banking hours (which is a good thing) and working for straight time isn't a bad idea after all.
> 
> If you wanted to work, you'd work. Here's some places listed in North Dakota to live:
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/apartments-for-rent/?catId=100037
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/housing/?catId=100034&nCatId=100043
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/rooms-roommates/?catId=100042
> 
> 98 places in total. Even if 98 places were a bust, buy a crappy tow-behind trailer and park it in a campground close to the job. Or go to the next state where there's work. There's no excuse for working 8 months total in 4 years if you're as good as you say you are.


Blow me :laughing:


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## cccp sparky

I would the rather to work a non-union by my home, than to work a union with a hundred lazys on a job in the siberia making a two-thousand dollars the week after a taxes.

What I have seen these tramp electricians, they slow down and make a job last longer, because when a job ends, the payday ends too.

I think the lightning rod making a mistakes by laying in a couch lock for the four years. Somebody becoming apprentice to journeyman in the same times.


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## Mr Rewire

cccp sparky said:


> I would the rather to work a non-union by my home, than to work a union with a hundred lazys on a job in the siberia making a two-thousand dollars the week after a taxes.
> 
> What I have seen these tramp electricians, they slow down and make a job last longer, because when a job ends, the payday ends too.
> 
> I think the lightning rod making a mistakes by laying in a couch lock for the four years. Somebody becoming apprentice to journeyman in the same times.


You type the worst Russian accent I have ever readski.


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## brian john

cccp sparky said:


> I would the rather to work a non-union by my home, than to work a union with a hundred lazys on a job in the siberia making a two-thousand dollars the week after a taxes.
> 
> What I have seen these tramp electricians, they slow down and make a job last longer, because when a job ends, the payday ends too.
> 
> I think the lightning rod making a mistakes by laying in a couch lock for the four years. Somebody becoming apprentice to journeyman in the same times.


There are many advantages for out of work electricians to travel when times are slow, one is their benefits continue, two the wages, three working open shop in their home turf can bring some union issues.


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## nitro71

jordan_paul said:


> Wow, just wow.
> 
> Ask the steady's how they haven't been laid off. Then do what they do. Maybe banking hours (which is a good thing) and working for straight time isn't a bad idea after all.
> 
> If you wanted to work, you'd work. Here's some places listed in North Dakota to live:
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/apartments-for-rent/?catId=100037
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/housing/?catId=100034&nCatId=100043
> 
> http://northdakota.ebayclassifieds.com/rooms-roommates/?catId=100042
> 
> 98 places in total. Even if 98 places were a bust, buy a crappy tow-behind trailer and park it in a campground close to the job. Or go to the next state where there's work. There's no excuse for working 8 months total in 4 years if you're as good as you say you are.


There's something called licensing. In some states it's difficult to get a license depending on where you are coming from. It also doesn't happen over night. Every state having different licensing requirements makes traveling difficult.


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## lightning rod

Don't even bother trying to get through to these scum. They are all back-stabbing pricks. These are the same guys who will rat you out on a job site about any thing and every thing they can just to try to make themselves look good and you look bad. Just because you are a good brother to your fellow brothers and play by the rules and follow the by-laws you are labeled lazy and worthless by these other "electricians", and I use that term very loosley. Like I said earlier, what goes around comes around. Keep laughing it up and bragging about how you have a job. Old karma might just get your ass fired or hooked up to some 480 for a while. The later wouldn't surprise me, because I'm sure these people are the same ones that take short cuts and risks at work all the time. Hey then there might even be a job for a lazy guy like me huh, well here's to karma then.


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## knowshorts

lightning rod said:


> Don't even bother trying to get through to these scum. They are all back-stabbing pricks. These are the same guys who will rat you out on a job site about any thing and every thing they can just to try to make themselves look good and you look bad. Just because you are a good brother to your fellow brothers and play by the rules and follow the by-laws you are labeled lazy and worthless by these other "electricians", and I use that term very loosley. Like I said earlier, what goes around comes around. Keep laughing it up and bragging about how you have a job. Old karma might just get your ass fired or hooked up to some 480 for a while. The later wouldn't surprise me, because I'm sure these people are the same ones that take short cuts and risks at work all the time. Hey then there might even be a job for a lazy guy like me huh, well here's to karma then.


Am I reading this correctly? You are so bitter, you are wishing death to your brothers? Maybe you need to look into the mirror. At first I was feeling for you, but maybe I was wrong and you are more to blame than you think.


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## lightning rod

reread the post, I was not wishing death. I said that I will bet that these are the same people who take short cuts all the time and cheat on things like safety. You can only do that for so long before something bad happens to you.


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## brian john

lightning rod said:


> reread the post, I was not wishing death. I said that I will bet that these are the same people who take short cuts all the time and cheat on things like safety. You can only do that for so long before something bad happens to you.


 
You are making a statement about all working electricians. The minute you make a blanket statement and encompass all of any group, you are immediately wrong, as all we have to do is find one decent hard working person to destroy your statement. 

In lieu of wasting effort and personal sanity on them, focus on yourself and what it will take to get you back on track


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## lightning rod

I never said it was all electricians that do that stuff, just a certain few. We all know someone on our job sites that works like that. And we all know people who have been hurt or killed because of short cuts and lack of safety.


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## di11igaf

jordan_paul said:


> How could my banking hours be screwing you, or the rest of the "brothers?" It's one of the stupidest bylaws in that book.
> 
> 
> 
> It is all about me. If I was laid off, how many 'brothers" would step up and make my truck payments? I have to look out for number one. So if that means being buddies with the boss, having the best tools, working fast, not complaining like you are, showing up early, staying a few minutes late than I'll do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I take time off for vacation? If I wanted to take my vacation pay and work right through the year whats so bad about that? And I have moved my vacation time when it dosen't mesh with my companies schedule. For instance I asked for a week off to go up to my families cabin. My boss said he had a big job comming up and that he really needs my help on it. That wasn't a problem, I worked that week and took my week off later on.
> 
> 
> 
> Alot of time I can't bill myself out for time/half or double time. If job one lasts 5 hours, and job two lasts 5.5 hours, I "should get" 2.5 hours of OT right? My boss can't charge customer #2 the OT rate because we were only there for 5.5 hours. If we took the hard line and said we had to have the OT my boss would loose money. If he looses money too many times he will go tits up. If he goes tits up then 6 guys will be out of work. How is that working in anyones favor?
> 
> Stabbing ourselves in the back IS taking the hardline, that's why we have such crappy market share right now. If we actually worked with the people who puts food on our tables we would be farther ahead then we are now. The race to the bottom started when "our brothers" decided to screw over the companies we work for.
> 
> Does it make you mad that I pay 3 dollars a week into a "shop fund" with the boss and other guys? Keep in mind that the owner of my company manages this money too . And that I use my personal cell phone for work related phone calls? And that the odd time I have put a a bit of material in my truck as I was on my way to a job that was close to my house? The problem with YOU union brothers is that you just want, want, want and take, take, take. Working for anyone in any industry is a give and take relationship.
> 
> Like I said before, if you wanted to work you would find it. I asked a few guys I work with what is up with a J-Man that has only worked 8 months in a 4 year period. They all said that he is eaither lazy or useless, there is work out there, sometimes you have to travel for it. Saying there's no where to live near where the work is, is a poor excuse.


Dude come on really? 
Your contractor is taking advantage of you, what sounds like illegally. 
Putting money into a shop fund? For what, so he can have a leg up on the honest union contractor, or just so you can pay his bills. 
Like I said before, I work work with a small contractor as well, he would never ask me to do this. Luckily for me, he was a union electrician for a long time, and treats us like it. To the point where I want NOTHING MORE than to see him succeed. That's how it should be. Not working weekends for straight time and putting money in the contractors shop fund.
And what is it with people on here thinking every man on the list is a piece of ****. There are guys on YOUR list I guarantee will work circles around everyone in your company.
Some guys don't like to stay with one contractor, I used to be one of them. That doesn't mean I don't know my **** and I'm lazy. Through the years I've been out more than I'd like to remember, but I always made something else happen. Fortunately for me the last call I took 3 years ago worked out to be the best ive taken.
Jordan, sorry man, but I can bet you will have a rude awakening one day. Apprentices usually stay employed throughout the apprentiship, but when you top out and he gets slow your gonna be surprised to see how fast he sends your ass back to the hall. I've seen it dozens of times and the apprentices are shell shocked.
Mark my words my friend, I was with a contractor for 6 years who would promise the world. The day I got laid off it was just another time signing the book. I don't think for a second it won't happen again one day.
It WILL happen to you, its a matter of when. NOBODY stays busy forever.


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## RGH

At the end of the day this about your choice..you can't change the powers that be...so what are your choices?...maintenance electricians make good $$ and work steady..is that available in your area?..or maybe career change?...I have to support my family..me..just like you..either you go to the work...or you find work...myself..I rather make a little less and work year round..then wait for that phone..thats me..you have to do whats good for your family...good luck man...try Indeed.com 5000+ sparky jobs available....take a breath and don't burn your bridges.:thumbsup:


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## SHOPROCKET1

I happen to know Lighting rod personally and he is as good as he says he is! The man is a machine and loves his family, and is willing to go anywhere to provide for them. Gulf war vet '91 hard worker will do anything and has taken every class to make himself more employable, and just passed his Masters test. So I'd check your tongue. The thing he can't and won't do is kiss a$$. I will say this about most organized guys. They will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat. It's a pretty broad brush that we are painting with here. The fact that banking hours is "one of the dumbest bylaws" is not a logical argument....it's a bylaw! That's like saying "I think driving 55 mph is a dumb rule so going 80 mph is what I'm going to drive". It's the bylaws set up by our Locals and the International for the well being of all brothers....so I'd check your tongue there also. There is no bylaw for being friends with the boss or charging a valued customer a fair rate for quality Union work if the job takes longer to complete than thought to keep this customer happy. However, giving time and money away for free is not in the best interest of the Union, you, your family, or most importantly me. Last but not least.....the argument that being away from your is ok and someday the kids will understand.........Having come from a family where my dad worked for the railroad and was gone constantly, not able to fish with me, not able to hunt with me, not able to coach my teams, not attending family functions with us, not being there for Xmas or any other holiday because the railroad owned him.....I would give back all that he provided to have spent more time with him when I was younger, yeah I'm bitter! I think what is lost in this is the fact that there are people suffering through this and some thriving. Maybe a little help from some brothers with things like medical would be a good start. I'm sure you could still make your truck payment!


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## SHOPROCKET1

Also, to respond to "laziness and uselessness" I have signed books in locals 160, 343, 292, 1426, 288, 405, 714, and my home local 110 with no luck other than in 110. Also have worked short calls for Ryan Electric and Gephart Electric and they have tried to keep me, but "stupid bylaws" prevented that from happening. Now, these are shops that build stadiums and large industrial facilities.......... they must think I'm useless.....eh?


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## cccp sparky

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> I happen to know Lighting rod personally


TLDR.

I think a Lightning Rod should open his own shop and pay the lazy brother to fiddle fart on the resi job for a commercial scale. Maybe after he gives away much moneys, he will realize how expensive business we are working in.

It makes not a difference that commercial guy can work circles around the service guy. Because service guy knows all scope and completes job in the one time.


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## SHOPROCKET1

CCCP-

I don't know if you read my post but let me repeat myself. This man was willing to give his life for his country, in Gulf War 1. He would be a fine owner of a shop and would'nt fall for a$$ kissing from any employees! He also spent $30,000 to adopt a little boy from Russia....FACT!!! Be carefull how you speak about people on the internet! You seem to be very knowledgeable. Why don't you come to MN and take our JW test?


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## SHOPROCKET1

I don't know why my lasts post are not on here yet but this is fact Lighting Rod adopted a son from Russia to provide a better life for him. Why is that top secret? Also it is a fact that the MN JW is one of the hardest to pass in the nation. The Masters here is even harder...fact. Take it. The real problem here is this....we compete against ourselves as union brothers! I have been on a job where a "Sister" failed her drug test and kept her job over other people. AND! She was late every day. She said being 6 mins late was not "late". Is this one of the "lazies" you speak of CCCP? Lightning rod went to day school with this one.....The App Comittee interviewed her.


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## cccp sparky

Thank you to a Shoprocket1 for fine story.

I cannot take your test for a Mine journeyman. I am busy here, doing the driving truck for warehouse, deliver a parts, and make organized the materials.


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## jordan_paul

di11igaf said:


> Dude come on really?
> Your contractor is taking advantage of you, what sounds like illegally.
> Putting money into a shop fund? For what, so he can have a leg up on the honest union contractor, or just so you can pay his bills.
> Like I said before, I work work with a small contractor as well, he would never ask me to do this. Luckily for me, he was a union electrician for a long time, and treats us like it. To the point where I want NOTHING MORE than to see him succeed. That's how it should be. Not working weekends for straight time and putting money in the contractors shop fund.
> And what is it with people on here thinking every man on the list is a piece of ****. There are guys on YOUR list I guarantee will work circles around everyone in your company.
> Some guys don't like to stay with one contractor, I used to be one of them. That doesn't mean I don't know my **** and I'm lazy. Through the years I've been out more than I'd like to remember, but I always made something else happen. Fortunately for me the last call I took 3 years ago worked out to be the best ive taken.
> Jordan, sorry man, but I can bet you will have a rude awakening one day. Apprentices usually stay employed throughout the apprentiship, but when you top out and he gets slow your gonna be surprised to see how fast he sends your ass back to the hall. I've seen it dozens of times and the apprentices are shell shocked.
> Mark my words my friend, I was with a contractor for 6 years who would promise the world. The day I got laid off it was just another time signing the book. I don't think for a second it won't happen again one day.
> It WILL happen to you, its a matter of when. NOBODY stays busy forever.


The three bucks a week goes towards the christmas party, shop barbecues, flowers and cards for our family that may pass on etc. It's mostly a feel good thing. I hope the money dosen't go into the owners pocket, but I trust him because he's a stand up guy. 

And there's guys there that have been there for over 20 years because they want to. When times get slow, as they have in the past the owner dosen't lay anyone off. If they want they can stay employed until it gets busy again. About 15 years ago the shop got so slow that 4 guys had no work for 10 weeks, but they didn't ask for a lay off. They wanted to stay with the company because the owner treats us fairly. I'm good with my money so when the time happens that we get super slow, I'm going to stick with this company, even if it's for 10 weeks at a time. I want to work for these guys until I start my own company and go out on my own.



SHOPROCKET1 said:


> I happen to know Lighting rod personally and he is as good as he says he is! The man is a machine and loves his family, and is willing to go anywhere to provide for them. Gulf war vet '91 hard worker will do anything and has taken every class to make himself more employable, and just passed his Masters test. So I'd check your tongue. The thing he can't and won't do is kiss a$$. I will say this about most organized guys. They will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat. It's a pretty broad brush that we are painting with here. The fact that banking hours is "one of the dumbest bylaws" is not a logical argument....it's a bylaw! That's like saying "I think driving 55 mph is a dumb rule so going 80 mph is what I'm going to drive". It's the bylaws set up by our Locals and the International for the well being of all brothers....so I'd check your tongue there also. There is no bylaw for being friends with the boss or charging a valued customer a fair rate for quality Union work if the job takes longer to complete than thought to keep this customer happy. However, giving time and money away for free is not in the best interest of the Union, you, your family, or most importantly me. Last but not least.....the argument that being away from your is ok and someday the kids will understand.........Having come from a family where my dad worked for the railroad and was gone constantly, not able to fish with me, not able to hunt with me, not able to coach my teams, not attending family functions with us, not being there for Xmas or any other holiday because the railroad owned him.....I would give back all that he provided to have spent more time with him when I was younger, yeah I'm bitter! I think what is lost in this is the fact that there are people suffering through this and some thriving. Maybe a little help from some brothers with things like medical would be a good start. I'm sure you could still make your truck payment!


Because he passed his masters test dosent make him a good electrician. Anyone can study for an exam. Maybe most organized guys are snitches but I wouldn't know. The company I work for was organized in the early 1950's. Even still, I'm not a snitch. I was on a job with the most useless union workers when I first joined the union. Their motto was "can't work ourselves out of a job." Even though most of them sat around I didn't run to anyone and rat them out. Nobody likes a tattle-tale, and snitches get stitches.

A bylaw is just a bylaw. Speed limits are a law under the criminal code. Speed limits are set so people don't get hurt or killed. What harm does banking hours do? I'd honestly like to know.

Our local has a Health and Crisis fund we pay into, I think 9 cents a man hour. It was set up so guys in financial crisis can get help from the brothers. Anymore then that is charity. I'd help a guy out if he was a stand up guy down on his luck and fell through the cracks getting on jobs if he was a hall guy. I wouldn't help the loud mouth "Union rah-rah-rah" a$$hole at all though. He did it to himself.

As the old song goes, "you gotta know when to hold em, when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut if it keeps you working. Pick your battles, if you throw a flag on EVERY minor violation, you end up not working.


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## cccp sparky

Man who does most of talking when first he coming to the job. He says again and again how he is here to work, and he is good electrician with much experience. He is talking alot about himself. As job progressing, he continues talking, to everyone else. And he does not stop talking. If he stops talking, maybe he finishes something. When time is coming to inspect a quality, I spends much time talking to him about what he should do to correct the errors. Much talking leads to even more talking. Now he is talking to his wife at home everyday. He is talking from his couch, saying, 'bring me the beer!'

So you see, is CCCP different very much from America? I think it is not.


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## SHOPROCKET1

Now that I'm up to speed on the difference between a by law and a crime, and have been brought back to about age 7 with the fine quote from Kenny Rogers, by the attourney/electrician maybe we can get back to the original topic. Listen, guys are frustrated by the lack of work and the last thing you want is some dude on the internet trying to slap you around calling you lazy when that is simply not the fact. The frustration continues when you take a job as I did at a Nuke plant for a shut down, and a tsunami in Japan shuts the job down or your on a job with a minority quota and you don't fit in to that category so when work slows down you are gone, why? because you are not a minority they even laid off the Russian guy so you would have been smoked too CCCP Mexicans are a minority Russians are not. Or all the new hires get smoked because some equiptment from Germany is late on arrival soooooo bye bye,when it shows up they just re hire new guys off the bench, we do not have a call back by name system nor can we sollicite our own work, so now you are at the back of the book. Or when work slows down so the shop smokes all new hires and slides their reg. guys into your job, not because your lazy, because they hold loyalties to those other guys. We have approx 1900 members in our local, 553 JW are off right now with many more guys under employed with their shop. I do agree that usually the Union rah rah guys like to stir the pot, and can sometimes be some of the worst slackers, but most of the 553 guys that are off are not "that guy" they just want to work. But you have to speak up when you want sheetrock screws and your foreman tells you to take them out of the wall......true story, or to just take material from another shop on site because it saves your shop $, true story. That one was said by my Foreman/Steward.

I just took a 3 week call for a shop here, and thats what is was, 3 weeks. I went from #374 to #524 in those 3 weeks. In the mean time I had to remove my name from all the books I signed....another one of those by laws, to keep from double booking. I just don't have the $ now to keep driving around to all these local to resign their books in hopes that there might be a job. Although I have resigned a few. 
These shops are just hiring guys for what they need to get done and then smoke them. They simply don't have the work to keep you, it's not that you're lazy. So now guys are trying to fall back on their "Brothers" and they aren't there either. Helping guys out with medical is just one example ......9 cents would'nt go far here in the U.S. we can make a doc appointment and see them without waiting 6 months, that costs $. But I guess 9 cents is better than the 0 cents we put in.


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## jordan_paul

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Now that I'm up to speed on the difference between a by law and a crime, and have been brought back to about age 7 with the fine quote from Kenny Rogers, by the attourney/electrician maybe we can get back to the original topic. Listen, guys are frustrated by the lack of work and the last thing you want is some dude on the internet trying to slap you around calling you lazy when that is simply not the fact. The frustration continues when you take a job as I did at a Nuke plant for a shut down, and a tsunami in Japan shuts the job down or your on a job with a minority quota and you don't fit in to that category so when work slows down you are gone, why? because you are not a minority they even laid off the Russian guy so you would have been smoked too CCCP Mexicans are a minority Russians are not. Or all the new hires get smoked because some equiptment from Germany is late on arrival soooooo bye bye,when it shows up they just re hire new guys off the bench, we do not have a call back by name system nor can we sollicite our own work, so now you are at the back of the book. Or when work slows down so the shop smokes all new hires and slides their reg. guys into your job, not because your lazy, because they hold loyalties to those other guys. We have approx 1900 members in our local, 553 JW are off right now with many more guys under employed with their shop. I do agree that usually the Union rah rah guys like to stir the pot, and can sometimes be some of the worst slackers, but most of the 553 guys that are off are not "that guy" they just want to work. But you have to speak up when you want sheetrock screws and your foreman tells you to take them out of the wall......true story, or to just take material from another shop on site because it saves your shop $, true story. That one was said by my Foreman/Steward.
> 
> I just took a 3 week call for a shop here, and thats what is was, 3 weeks. I went from #374 to #524 in those 3 weeks. In the mean time I had to remove my name from all the books I signed....another one of those by laws, to keep from double booking. I just don't have the $ now to keep driving around to all these local to resign their books in hopes that there might be a job. Although I have resigned a few.
> These shops are just hiring guys for what they need to get done and then smoke them. They simply don't have the work to keep you, it's not that you're lazy. So now guys are trying to fall back on their "Brothers" and they aren't there either. Helping guys out with medical is just one example ......9 cents would'nt go far here in the U.S. we can make a doc appointment and see them without waiting 6 months, that costs $. But I guess 9 cents is better than the 0 cents we put in.


The fund is pretty stacked. 1200 guys plus about 300 travelers putting in 9 cents a man hour adds up. And it's not really for medical, we pay $2.50 an hour for our bennies but health care is free up here. Our benifits cover perscription drugs not covered by the government, dental, massages, short term disability etc. And it dosen't take 6 months to see a doctor here, that's propaganda against socialized medicine. When my appendix blew up in the summer I went into the hospital at 5:00am, seen a doctor, had a CAT scan and they had my appendix out by 5:00pm. My family doctor takes about 3-7 days to see, but he's a busy guy. Both my grandfathers needed open heart surgery and they had it within a week of when they found out they needed it.

But back to the original point I made then. If work is so slow in your local why don't you pick up and move somewhere else where there is work? I think I'd leave my provence to find the work if I was out of work for just one year. It's probably different down there but in Canada once an electrician (and 52 of the other reconized trades) writes his CofQ he becomes Red Seal certified meaning his license is good for all of Canada. Tomorrow a guy living in British Columbia can move to Newfoundland and start work the next day as an electrician.


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## klien tools

yea right


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## SHOPROCKET1

jordan_paul said:


> The fund is pretty stacked. 1200 guys plus about 300 travelers putting in 9 cents a man hour adds up. And it's not really for medical, we pay $2.50 an hour for our bennies but health care is free up here. Our benifits cover perscription drugs not covered by the government, dental, massages, short term disability etc. And it dosen't take 6 months to see a doctor here, that's propaganda against socialized medicine. When my appendix blew up in the summer I went into the hospital at 5:00am, seen a doctor, had a CAT scan and they had my appendix out by 5:00pm. My family doctor takes about 3-7 days to see, but he's a busy guy. Both my grandfathers needed open heart surgery and they had it within a week of when they found out they needed it.
> 
> But back to the original point I made then. If work is so slow in your local why don't you pick up and move somewhere else where there is work? I think I'd leave my provence to find the work if I was out of work for just one year. It's probably different down there but in Canada once an electrician (and 52 of the other reconized trades) writes his CofQ he becomes Red Seal certified meaning his license is good for all of Canada. Tomorrow a guy living in British Columbia can move to Newfoundland and start work the next day as an electrician.


 
Thats not the way it works here although Minnesota JW lic. recipricates with more states than most, why? because it is difficult to pass. As far as picking up and moving to where the work is....where in the hell is that? Yeah No. Dak...thats only going to be a short boom, you can't keep uprooting the family to chase 6 months worth of work. I have looked into Nebraska and recently into Kansas but again thats short term employment too. The other thing about going somewhere else is the fact that locals have shut their doors on letting people changing thier ticket....now you can sign book 2 as a traveler but most locals have unemloyment on book 1 so the chances of getting a call is slim. Following me? Its easy to sit back and have all the answers when you have a steady job. I used to think that way til it happened to me. I went 9 yrs with a shop and never missed a day being off. When I did finally get laid off staying employed has been difficult the shops simply do not have the work to keep you and they have no loyalty to you. My example would be like if you got laid off from the shop that you work for now, they love you but they can't keep you, now you got to a shop that has a few jobs they like you too but winter is coming and work is slowing down so they lay you off to keep their reg. guys going, so down the road you go. Nothing personal not that your lazy, just no work. And on and on it goes. I was ona job last summer where 5 of us had to build and put up 1100 8' light fixtures 27' in the air by oct 1st. We busted a$$ to get it done and finished on sept 20th our reward was a layoff on sept 23rd all 5 of us. We were working 6 10hr days for 6 weeks, most guys didn't miss 1 hr of time. I was driving 88 miles 1 way to get to this job. They were happy with us and thanked us for our hard work never the less we got smoked...nowhere else to put us.


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## knowshorts

To the MN guys,

I don't know if you are one of the same or not. It doesn't really matter. Anyways, I would like to be the first to welcome you both to this forum. I understand you are bitter, angry, pissed, upset, whatever. I guess lack of work will do that to a man. What I am amazed about is, after spending a year in SLP, Minnetonka, and Bloomington, I cant remember meeting someone some grumpy. But like I said, maybe the lack of work has done that to you.

I am not gonna dissect a couple dozen posts, but there is work for you to do. If you need to go to ND for work to provide for your family, then do it. Come home every other week. Go find work at one of the casinos. Find a job at the mall. Find something. Shovel snow. Your family is counting on you. 

About the post about busting your ass installing on those fixtures....Guess what? You know what your reward was? You were expecting long term employment, but guess what, your reward was exactly what was originally agreed upon. A paycheck. Nothing more, nothing less.

You need to remember life is a social game. It doesn't matter how great you think you are, or how fast you think you are. You need to make the people paying you like you. At work, use the same principles you used to land your wife. I know you don't look like a 23 year old Brad Pitt, have a million in the bank, or have a 10" personality. But for some reason she saw something in you to keep you around.


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## SHOPROCKET1

KNOWSHORTS-I think you read my post wrong. I was just trying to make a point that no matter how hard you work or how fast you get it done, if there is no work when you complete the job it's down the road you go. There was never a promise of long term employment at that job or any of the last 4 jobs I have worked on, in fact it's been quite the opposite. They just come out and say when this is over chances are you guys are gone It's not a dislike or lazy issue in most cases....now, those guys usually get smoked first but in most cases now it's just part of life in construction. Heck I have carpooled into work with my last 3 foreman they like me and my work fine, but the shop can't pay guys for the hell of it when the work dries up. For the record also, I'm not "grumpy" or trying to pick fights on here but it does rub me wrong when guys say someone is lazy because they can't find work or can't stay employed. I am now recovering from shoulder surgery that I had last month and still have 4 months of rehab, it takes a long time to type with one hand, but it's something to do right? So hopefully I'll be ready to go by spring. But before that I have made myself available for all jobs on the job line, I had a job with Home Depot that I woke up at 3am to go stock shelves, and unload freight after I'd get off there I would do side work just about every day then at 4:30 I would go to my other job at a liquor store til 10PM. I don't want a reward for that, just explaining that I didn't just sit on the couch and ask for beers, although I do that too. You are exactly right on when you say the shop owes me nothing but the paycheck that we all work hard for. I think we all misinterpret what people say on these threads sometimes, and if we were just having a face to face discussion it would be totally different. Sarcasm get lost in translation I think. I think most of us would get along great on a job site, again, most guys do. But there are the worms out there that is my issue. Even if the back stabbing isn't about me, I have an issue with it. There have been so many big jobs moth balled here for one reason or another, if one or more would just break it sure would help. They are talking stadium here new power plants, upgrades of power plants, Nascar track, 200 plus million dollar redo of the State Capital, to name a few. I those would ever go it could dang near clear our book. our book in St. Paul is 553 like I said, 292 MLPS is 840. And PS There is no snow to shovel here we haven't had snow all winter. It's going to be 37 deg. today, so even the plow drivers aren't working. We've only been below 0 1ce I think and that was and over night low. Not a bad winter!


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## cccp sparky

I think the Shoprocket is full of a BS.

No one goes to removing the signature from a Book 1 in the home local when taking a Book 2 call in the other local.

And a powerhouse shutdown is the notorious infestation point of a nasty electrician known as the flea.

Now thinking shoprocket is the flea troll.

Just sayings to you, lightning rod and shopsrocket, maybe you shoulda be more the company man. It only takes the small consideration for employer's needs, and you might still be employed, or inside the backdoors to new employments. No doubting, your familys need you to be a little more the company man, and your bank account wants you to be company man, and I want to stop wasting my taxes on the unemployments for you, so please becoming a bit more company man.


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## SHOPROCKET1

Wrong Boris- I signed book 2 in 292 which is the MLPS local because I was just laid off from the hospital that I was working at and heard that those calls were coming in from the apprentice that I was working with. A company put 76 calls in and it went to book 2. We did the 2 weeks of training, we were waiting to be badged and they eliminated 44,000 man hours of the job. We never stepped foot in the plant they laid off all of book 2 guys and even some of the book 1's got it. It was going to be 2 month of 6 12's overnights......didn't pan out. I removed my name from the books I signed when I took my last call in my home local this Dec. the 3 week call I was talking about. Try to keep up. I notice you are not working now...must be in bread line or drink much vodka and taking anabolic steroids to play much fun game at Olypics? And we all pay taxes here sport! Some immigrants get out of some of them though don't they?


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## klien tools

After reading a bunch of these posts I would have to say it appears that we need to call the exterminator at the international, because the IBEW has a huge infestation of RATS. Jordan from canada, you need to just shut your mouth and be glad that you have a job and stop berating others who don't. Nobody cares what you filthy frenchies think, you keep working below scale wages, banking hours, and giving your time and wages away, thats your business. The day will come when you too will have to travel, and some day you are going to pull that crap in the wrong local and your going to wake up in a dumpster after you mouthed off to the wrong crowd. Although I sure you are only tough on your computer after you have a case of moose drool beer to wash out the taste from being at work on your knees all day. 

And CCCP electrician, Why don't you take some freaken english lessons so people can understand you. You bitch about paying taxes for people in this country, well here is a idea; get back on whatever raft you floated here on and go back to your third world country. I can't stand it when people come over here and don't even bother to learn the language. I'm sure you got your strong suck ass work ethic by stabbing everyone you know in the back, just so you had some money to buy rotted chickens from a street vendor back home. So please take yourself and the rest of the people like yourself and leave our country.

Unbelieveable, the two biggest loud mouths on here who are voicing how to make it by working against our american union by-laws are not even from this country, but they know the secret to success huh!


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## Mr Rewire

cccp sparky said:


> Thank you to a Shoprocket1 for fine story.
> 
> I cannot take your test for a *Mine* journeyman. I am busy here, doing the driving truck for warehouse, deliver a parts, and make organized the materials.


 are you pretending to be Russian or German?:laughing:


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## klien tools

It sounds like he is pretending to pose as a electrician. I am sure this piece of crap is probably about 45, virgin, and "if parents come to amerika too" he is living in their basement. I am sure this tool doesn't even have a lic. You ever even been on a big job in your life cccp? I am guessing no because you probably can't pass the backround check, well that and I am sure you know what would happen to you if you got on a big job like that and started running off at the mouth with your crap.


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## SHOPROCKET1

He parts organizerski must be great sparkyski!?! He's a jeep jockey much important for large bank account. I see a dungeons and dragons player here maybe? Probably a "gamer" who goes on threads like this and brings out his alter ego....Boris. Klien Tools Boris and the Hoser are not going to like your post!


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## di11igaf

anybody wanna take a shot at the forum member:IP address ratio in this thread?


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## Mr Rewire

I think CCCP is PeterD


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## cccp sparky

I reading how the klein tools and a shopsocket are being a very defensive against the cccp. They make a threat of the violence against a man who care about healthy business for a contractor. May I stating the obvious? If either man is ever the foreman for company, job probably made a contractor thousands only if the contract of time and materials. 

CCCP always getting a last laugh. Monkey worker like the tiny brain shopsocket kleins is not having the future. If he wants a work, he must take a construction electrician $25 per hour calls from hall's new book for a neck-down sparky. Then CCCP will babysit a neckdowners for the above scale a wages. I laughing at you Mr. Neckdown.


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## Mr Rewire

cccp sparky said:


> I reading how the klein tools and a shopsocket are being a very defensive against the cccp. They make a threat of the violence against a man who care about healthy business for a contractor. May I stating the obvious? If either man is ever the foreman for company, job probably made a contractor thousands only if the contract of time and materials.
> 
> CCCP always getting a last laugh. Monkey worker like the tiny brain shopsocket kleins is not having the future. If he wants a work, he must take a construction electrician $25 per hour calls from hall's new book for a neck-down sparky. Then CCCP will babysit a neckdowners for the above scale a wages. I laughing at you Mr. Neckdown.


 Sa te vije ju nuk mund ta lexoni russian?


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## SHOPROCKET1

Yep you got me! You are a clever one. The delivery man, parts sorter foreman......ski. I will just go Watch Rocky 4 to cheer me up.


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## local134gt

Mr Rewire said:


> Sa te vije ju nuk mund ta lexoni russian?


Why must you taunt him after every one of his posts?


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## chicken steve

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07...een-decline-unions-and-rise-income-inequality

Western and co-author Jake Rosenfeld, a sociology professor at the University of Washington, looked at the period between 1973 and 2007, when inequality in hourly wages spiked by 40 percent. During that time, union membership for private-sector male workers fell from 34 percent to 8 percent (female workers were never as unionized as their male counterparts). Their paper in the August issue of the _America Sociological Review_ concludes that deunionization's biggest effects on inequality were indirect: 

~CS~


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## klien tools

Once again cccp, learn to speak our language or get the hell out. Go crawl back under your rock, for piss sake a 2yr old makes better sense than you do. I don't think this worm is russian, he sounds like he is asian to me. I'm guessing that cccp doesn't work commercial or industrial work because he doesn't have enough intelligence or ability. If a guy like this ever did show up on a big job, I am sure he would have to fear for his safety after spewwing his diareha out of his mouth about sucking ass up to the contractor and stabbing his brothers in the back.


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## Brother Noah1

Lighting Rod this is the worst economic situation that any of us will ever experience, and I am thankful for hard times because you never really know how a person is until the stakes are high and their back is up against the wall. You could be an awesome person but the angst and hostility that comes out in your post puts most on edge.Work has been available in the last 4 years but the scales are not what they pay in your part of the country so we tramps have had to travel long roads for less pay and sometimes even worse conditions to earn a living. Instead of groaning about things you can not change why not take a chance in locals like 479 or hell come on down to my home local of 1579 we will be hiring travelers for the next 3-5 years ( the scale is low but I am sure you will still witness some wigglish stuff) So instead of lashing out on the web just come on down south put your frustration into plying the tools.PM me I am sure I can give you some useful information.


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## brian john

Brother Noah said:


> Lighting Rod this is the worst economic situation that any of us will ever experience,


LET's HOPE



> and I am thankful for hard times because you never really know how a person is until the stakes are high and their back is up against the wall. You could be an awesome person but the angst and hostility that comes out in your post puts most on edge.Work has been available in the last 4 years but the scales are not what they pay in your part of the country so we tramps have had to travel long roads for less pay and sometimes even worse conditions to earn a living. Instead of groaning about things you can not change why not take a chance in locals like 479 or hell come on down to my home local of 1579 we will be hiring travelers for the next 3-5 years ( the scale is low but I am sure you will still witness some wigglish stuff) So instead of lashing out on the web just come on down south put your frustration into plying the tools.PM me I am sure I can give you some useful information.


We do have common ground.

Are you working out of your home local?


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## SHOPROCKET1

Lightining rod is not a bad guy and like I said before sarcasm get lost here.....and in fairness he and I have been under attack a little. No one knows anyone here, how can blanket statements be made. The second someone says they will do more for less and calls you and idiot for not doing that while some of us are trying to keep certain standards and suffering for it...that will piss a guy off. I am FAR from a Union drum beater, and lightiningrod just lit up our BA 3 weeks ago, do you know what the BA told him? He said you are right and there isn't a thing I can do about it. That will piss a guy off too. We went and took a class last year called "Code of Excellence" basically a class teaching you what you should already know as a human being, give 8 for 8, dress nice, speak nice, look nice, please the customer. After completeing this course you get a card that says "this guy is clean!" Then you go to work and people fail their drug test but because they are a minority they stay over others, or another fails his JW test but hangs around because they have to fill the quota, or you go to another job and the foreman is telling you how he crapped in a shoe box and put it on the Superintendant desk....trust me, he noticed I didn't think that was funny,then I'm labeled the prick. Code of excellence huh? I will say this too, I think we do need to take a pay cut to regain work, mostly by reducing the dues we pay every year....$3600 a year that gets passed on to the customer. But until we vote on that as a local you work under the contract agreed apon......Rocky won


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## Brother Noah1

A cut in pay has never created more work and only makes all electrician's labor worth less in a volatile market.
I am working in my home local Brian for low wages even though travelers are getting out in the bay area (California)within a couple of weeks and starting to get into book2 at $48 an hour. I worked out of 292 in 1999 and 2000, stayed at a local contractors home and even helped build a school for a church in my spare time there.The area and the people were awesome so I wonder why such a black post from a 11-0 hand?


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## TattooMan

Brother Noah said:


> A cut in pay has never created more work and only makes all electrician's labor worth less in a volatile market.
> I am working in my home local Brian for low wages even though travelers are getting out in the bay area (California)within a couple of weeks and starting to get into book2 at $48 an hour. I worked out of 292 in 1999 and 2000, stayed at a local contractors home and even helped build a school for a church in my spare time there.The area and the people were awesome so I wonder why such a black post from a 11-0 hand?


Here at the 595 and the 332 in California there is plenty of work. Travelers and people stationed here alike. Company I am with, to use an example, has 6 ongoing jobs for another 2 1/2-3 years and 3 jobs of equal time about to get underway. It is the norm here to see the GC hire 3 different EC subs for one project. Fire alarm, sparky, data. Enough to go around IMO. If you are willing to come this way drop me a message and I can get you in touch with the right people.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

Brother Noah said:


> A cut in pay has never created more work and only makes all electrician's labor worth less in a volatile market.
> I am working in my home local Brian for low wages even though travelers are getting out in the bay area (California)within a couple of weeks and starting to get into book2 at $48 an hour. I worked out of 292 in 1999 and 2000, stayed at a local contractors home and even helped build a school for a church in my spare time there.The area and the people were awesome so I wonder why such a black post from a 11-0 hand?


Times have changed Noah '99 was a long time ago I had just turned out life was good. 292 is the black hole 840 guys off. I'm not saying take less pay on the check I'm saying clean house and pay less in dues find cheaper med insurance, do we really need 4 organizers in the hall? Boot people that can't keep their nose clean, bid on resi jobs, bid on strip malls, bid on town home developments, find ways to charge customers less, and gain work. $48 sounds like a good wage we are at $55 and change $35.55 on the check. There is work here but the nonunion shops are picking it up first because they charge less. The customers could care less if you are a union shop or not.


----------



## jordan_paul

klien tools said:


> After reading a bunch of these posts I would have to say it appears that we need to call the exterminator at the international, because the IBEW has a huge infestation of RATS. Jordan from canada, you need to just shut your mouth and be glad that you have a job and stop berating others who don't. Nobody cares what you filthy frenchies think, you keep working below scale wages, banking hours, and giving your time and wages away, thats your business. The day will come when you too will have to travel, and some day you are going to pull that crap in the wrong local and your going to wake up in a dumpster after you mouthed off to the wrong crowd. Although I sure you are only tough on your computer after you have a case of moose drool beer to wash out the taste from being at work on your knees all day.
> 
> Unbelieveable, the two biggest loud mouths on here who are voicing how to make it by working against our american union by-laws are not even from this country, but they know the secret to success huh!


Lol, this trolling this is pretty fun. It's took 70 posts of just saying the oppopsite of what three people wanted to hear before the ignorance came to the surface. HAHAHHA, what a joke.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

Glad you are having fun. Now go get some rest you have a big day of kissing a$$ and giving away your time and money tomorrow!


----------



## cccp sparky

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> you have a big day of kissing a$$ and giving away your time and money tomorrow!


LOL.

I would rather to give little free time and agree with boss on somethings trivial, than too watch a TV all day like you. Or are you working the Home Depot? I forget.

Maybe you are the 'salting.' Working a non-union job and keeping hush hush. I know the man from business manager inner circle who did such things.

Anyways, I ask you to do a math. You calculating how much is 39.10 times 8 hours for me. And then you calculate your home depot wages. Who makes more tomorrow? hmmmm..... I do not know.

My conclusion is that you are jealous of the CCCP Sparky, so you claim that I am unrighteous the rule breaker. And you are the righteous union man martyr. Sounds like the bible story or something. Bible or no bible, CCCP only cares the payday.


----------



## jordan_paul

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Glad you are having fun. Now go get some rest you have a big day of kissing a$$ and giving away your time and money tomorrow!


Knowing I got under your skin will make me smile tomorrow while I collect a paycheque while you collect a glorified welfare cheque.

But remember man this is only this internet. Maybe I'm not even an electrician.......... Maybe I'm actually a die hard union guy who only works 6 months a year because of my big mouth......maybe I sit down on the job and bitch to the BA because I had to work 1.25 minutes past quitting time.............maybe I'm unemployed right now. 

You're a joke ahhahahaha,


----------



## Widestance_Politics

lightning rod said:


> Ya, I am in my mid-thirtys and I am apparently all washed up. The freakin hall says that they know "it's hard out there". I can see that as they carry around their coffee cups all day in their offices, I don't think they laid anyone off at the hall even though we have had about 35-40% of our guys off for years. Just as long as the dues keep coming in they don't care. You know when the union will care? When people like me say "I have had enough of your crap, I quit. I'm not paying dues anymore." Once the hall starts having a hard time making payroll to everyone employed there, then they will say whoa, whoa, whoa we gotta do something. Maybe we shouldn't have hung 35% of our members out to dry after all. I'll bet that then they will find a way to get more people work and share the work with all members instead of just a select group.


I pulled my retirement and went back to the non-union sector last summer.....the hall didn't care at all. If you feel that they don't care about you now...it will be the same when you have left. Just move on and worry about yourself and your actual family....


----------



## mikeh32

try being an apprentice, have 2 years in, and only worked 3 months...


Just saying, it could be worse. I am lucky enough to have sold my company, and now just do side work for expendable funds. 

I have given up hope for the union. The only reason I am still in it, is i have a pre-existing condition, and need to keep my insurance.


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## chicken steve

anyone else get the _"watching the me generation trash the we generations work"_ blues reading this thread? ~CS~


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

jordan_paul said:


> Knowing I got under your skin will make me smile tomorrow while I collect a paycheque while you collect a glorified welfare cheque.
> 
> But remember man this is only this internet. Maybe I'm not even an electrician.......... Maybe I'm actually a die hard union guy who only works 6 months a year because of my big mouth......maybe I sit down on the job and bitch to the BA because I had to work 1.25 minutes past quitting time.............maybe I'm unemployed right now.
> 
> You're a joke ahhahahaha,


WOW you have quite the ego to think you're under my skin, far from it. It doesn't surprise my that you lay down and obey your boss' EVERY command, you're French you always have a white flag on you! It doesn't matter what you or the commie say to me. I don't mind a little friendly bantor (that means bickering) it gives me something to do right now. Trust me, there is nothing glorious about collecting an unemployment check. I have posted on here that I just have had shoulder surgery and that means I'm collecting a disabillity check or cheque,something I have paid into for 16 yrs. Fortunatly people like you don't have your hands in the bennies office, or this benefit probably wouln't even be there for me....well unless YOU needed it too. So no need to worry about me :thumbsup:. And before you even say it, this is and 18 yr old injury that I'm finally getting fixed. Hopefully ready to go by May. And if you are getting off by "thinking" you're making someone miserable makes you smile....well then God bless you! You have issues beyond kissing a$$!

CCCP you need to make up your mind comrade. First you rip because you say I'm sitting on the couch, then you rip because I go get a less than desireable job to provide, 2 of them in fact. Between the 2 jobs I was making $20 an hr. Yeah lots of hrs to total that but I had to bring in income. Is that the lazy you speak of? I only had the Depot job for about 3.5 months between electrical calls that finally got to me. No couch sitting! Just pick one side, thats all I ask. Now get back to the parts room and use that thing above your neck and get ready, it's almost fire, mudslide and rolling black out season in Cali! 


Steve-yes I'm tired of the me first people. Again I'm not a union drum beater there's plenty of problems at the hall too too. But there are things I think we need to do to help out peolple and to ensure certain standards are kept. Even certain guys on this post deserve that. When I'm working I'm more than happy to help out guys that are not. That should be just basic human nature though, no matter what you do for a living. I don't go on job and shoot my mouth off and talk smack, that will get you your pink slip like right now. Do you think you should have a place to wash your hand when you work at an oil refinery? I have a friend worked almost two yrs for a shop who asked at the safety meeting if the slop sink could be fixed so the guys could wash their hands in it again. After the meeting he was told that he shouldn't have done that by another electrician that had been out there for a while. Sure enough, 1 man lay off a few weeks later. This guys wasn't pissed and ranting and raving, he just asked if the sink could be fixed? For those interested check out the web site from 405 Cedar Rapids IA, 288 Waterloo, IA, and 714 Bismark, ND. They all post jobs every day,even the big oil boom ND hasn't been doing much hiring. 

Good Luck to the guys out there that are struggling and looking for work, thats all I really want to do. Not pick fights with people on here, not raise hell on a job, not backstab people when you can see that the work is drying up, Just get back to work and provide for my fam. Just like some of you guys are. And thats NO JOKE Jordan!


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Steve-yes I'm tired of the me first people. Again I'm not a union drum beater there's plenty of problems at the hall too too. But there are things I think we need to do to help out peolple and to ensure certain standards are kept. !


 
You do realize by definition being union is a ME FIRST attitude, you get in and limit the number of electricians in a local to PROTECT *YOU.* You work against the contractors for *YOU.*

You may not see it that way and may not agree, but there are 1,000's of open shop men that would laugh at you based on the lousy treatment they have taken at the hands of unions. From not being allowed to join and therefore working for lower wages or verbal abuse of SOME union members.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

brian john said:


> You do realize by definition being union is a ME FIRST attitude, you get in and limit the number of electricians in a local to PROTECT *YOU.* You work against the contractors for *YOU.*
> 
> You may not see it that way and may not agree, but there are 1,000's of open shop men that would laugh at you based on the lousy treatment they have taken at the hands of unions. From not being allowed to join and therefore working for lower wages or verbal abuse of SOME union members.


The way I see it being a part of a union is doing things as a united group, and the contractors should be a small part of that because they need us and we need them to a certain degree. I DO NOT buy into it's us against the contractors. I can't believe they are not allowed to join, our hall has pretty much taken in all askers it seems. We have 4 organizers I think. They just appointed another one. I have personally heard guys in the hall say things like "we need to stop using terms like rats for the non union, we need to try to bring them on board". This is true, as long as you can get the work, not just the guys. Again we need the contractors in too.
I'm not interested in mistreating anyone, union or non union. If a guy has a great owner working with a non union shop that treats his guys right and pays a fair wage have at it. I have never personally witnessed a non union tradesman being mistreated, and have been on jobs with them when I was doing temp control work. I don't doubt that it does happen though because I've seen union guys treat union guys bad. I think here in MN we try to push Companies to use Union labor not harrass the actual elec contractor on a job. The union, non union thing never was an issue of mine on here. The only thing I said is that some of the worst backstabbers I have worked with were organized guys. That is just what iv'e seen. My view of contractors is this, if you do not work hard and make them money there will be no job for you and if they have no work they can't pay you just for fun. I've heard guys say things like "I'd like to see this shop go out of business" which never made sense to me....who are you going to work for if you drive these shops out? I have used my personal phone for work not a ton but I've done it. I've also run jobs without getting foremans pay I asked for it but was denied. I plugged my nose and swallowed because I wanted to keep my job. I just try not to make a habbit of giving away a ton of time or money when I'm working for someone. If you work late it's overtime....have I ever worked an hr late and left a hour early on a fri of course. But there were some guys that had banked 800 hrs for a shop here the shop laid them of and said they only had record of 300. The hall said tough you shouldn't be banking hrs. Someone had said something earlier about getting put in a dumpster, well I don't know if that still happens but I do know there are people just waiting for certain other people that had mistreated them in the past to show up on these jobs with them as travelers and call them out up there. Like I said I just want to work. And when I feel better I'll do what I have to do that.


----------



## cccp sparky

chicken steve said:


> anyone else get the _"watching the me generation trash the we generations work"_ blues reading this thread? ~CS~


ME generation is a baby boomers.


----------



## cccp sparky

So shopsocket is the big job electrician. Obviously not foreman.

What does this say of a Shopsocket?

Shopsocket wants CCCP to feel the guilty, because giving little extra to the shop. Maybe Shopsocket should know that CCCP's competitor nonunion electrician is making the 60% of CCCP's total wage package. Shopsocket should know that CCCP is grateful for a 40% difference, and shows the little gratitude. Maybe CCCP is the ******** in Shopsocket's eyes. Who cares? Now Shopsocket is working for the less than nonunion electrician wage. I laughing.


----------



## di11igaf

cccp sparky said:


> So shopsocket is the big job electrician. Obviously not foreman.
> 
> What does this say of a Shopsocket?
> 
> Shopsocket wants CCCP to feel the guilty, because giving little extra to the shop. Maybe Shopsocket should know that CCCP's competitor nonunion electrician is making the 60% of CCCP's total wage package. Shopsocket should know that CCCP is grateful for a 40% difference, and shows the little gratitude. Maybe CCCP is the ******** in Shopsocket's eyes. Who cares? Now Shopsocket is working for the less than nonunion electrician wage. I laughing.


So last week you were a business owner now your a union electrician? Decide to go out of business overnight?


----------



## gold

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Lightining rod is not a bad guy and like I said before sarcasm get lost here.....and in fairness he and I have been under attack a little.
> 
> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> No one knows anyone here, how can blanket statements be made. The second someone says they will do more for less and calls you and idiot for not doing that while some of us are trying to keep certain standards and suffering for it...that will piss a guy off. I am FAR from a Union drum beater, and lightiningrod just lit up our BA 3 weeks ago, do you know what the BA told him? He said you are right and there isn't a thing I can do about it. That will piss a guy off too. We went and took a class last year called "Code of Excellence" basically a class teaching you what you should already know as a human being, give 8 for 8, dress nice, speak nice, look nice, please the customer. After completeing this course you get a card that says "this guy is clean!" Then you go to work and people fail their drug test but because they are a minority they stay over others, or another fails his JW test but hangs around because they have to fill the quota, or you go to another job and the foreman is telling you how he crapped in a shoe box and put it on the Superintendant desk....trust me, he noticed I didn't think that was funny,then I'm labeled the prick. Code of excellence huh? I will say this too, I think we do need to take a pay cut to regain work, mostly by reducing the dues we pay every year....$3600 a year that gets passed on to the customer. But until we vote on that as a local you work under the contract agreed apon......Rocky won


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

cccp sparky said:


> So shopsocket is the big job electrician. Obviously not foreman.
> 
> What does this say of a Shopsocket?
> 
> Shopsocket wants CCCP to feel the guilty, because giving little extra to the shop. Maybe Shopsocket should know that CCCP's competitor nonunion electrician is making the 60% of CCCP's total wage package. Shopsocket should know that CCCP is grateful for a 40% difference, and shows the little gratitude. Maybe CCCP is the ******** in Shopsocket's eyes. Who cares? Now Shopsocket is working for the less than nonunion electrician wage. I laughing.


Ive done it all pal, Stadiums, power plants, sh!t plants, schools, swimming pools, town homes, shacks, hospitals, clinics, electrochromatic plant, temp controls, Street crew, Data centers, retrofits, goverment builings, strip malls, Wall mart remodels, Park softball fields, snow making pump house for ski slopes, Resaurant remodels, a post office main hub, and service work. Have been trained to do solar ready for that when/if that comes. Been on 200 man crew and have worked alone.

Do you think before you hit sumit? At least Jordans posts are funny. Go pick a fight with your life partner. I'm tired of your gas.


----------



## electricalwiz

shoprocket how long have you been doing electric


----------



## chicken steve

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> The way I see it being a part of a union is doing things as a united group, and the contractors should be a small part of that because they need us and we need them to a certain degree. I DO NOT buy into it's us against the contractors. I can't believe they are not allowed to join, our hall has pretty much taken in all askers it seems. We have 4 organizers I think. They just appointed another one. I have personally heard guys in the hall say things like "we need to stop using terms like rats for the non union, we need to try to bring them on board". This is true, as long as you can get the work, not just the guys. Again we need the contractors in too.
> I'm not interested in mistreating anyone, union or non union. If a guy has a great owner working with a non union shop that treats his guys right and pays a fair wage have at it. I have never personally witnessed a non union tradesman being mistreated, and have been on jobs with them when I was doing temp control work. I don't doubt that it does happen though because I've seen union guys treat union guys bad. I think here in MN we try to push Companies to use Union labor not harrass the actual elec contractor on a job. The union, non union thing never was an issue of mine on here. The only thing I said is that some of the worst backstabbers I have worked with were organized guys. That is just what iv'e seen. My view of contractors is this, if you do not work hard and make them money there will be no job for you and if they have no work they can't pay you just for fun. I've heard guys say things like "I'd like to see this shop go out of business" which never made sense to me....who are you going to work for if you drive these shops out? I have used my personal phone for work not a ton but I've done it. I've also run jobs without getting foremans pay I asked for it but was denied. I plugged my nose and swallowed because I wanted to keep my job. I just try not to make a habbit of giving away a ton of time or money when I'm working for someone. If you work late it's overtime....have I ever worked an hr late and left a hour early on a fri of course. But there were some guys that had banked 800 hrs for a shop here the shop laid them of and said they only had record of 300. The hall said tough you shouldn't be banking hrs. Someone had said something earlier about getting put in a dumpster, well I don't know if that still happens but I do know there are people just waiting for certain other people that had mistreated them in the past to show up on these jobs with them as travelers and call them out up there. Like I said I just want to work. And when I feel better I'll do what I have to do that.


 
The entire history of unions had little to do with people _vs._ people

It was people _vs_ corporatism

to argue about who has the bigger crumb now, especially given this guilded age redux, flys in the face said history

~CS~


----------



## cccp sparky

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Ive done it all pal, Been on 200 man crew and have worked alone.


Maybe you have been on many the jobs. But not many lately. LOL

Why did not this much time on butt, recalibrate one's attitude?


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## RGH

you have answered your own question in the 1st post...8 months of work outta 48...like I said before...you have to find work...you have to make it happen..you have to support yourself and your family...do the math..you have lost what..$200000 ???minus unemlpoyment insurance..find a new direction....this don't work...this money is gone forever we all only have x amount of time to earn period...union..nonunion is not the point...you need an income!!!!!!!!...good luck...


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## BuzzKill

Union work has gone overseas...Union manufacturing job losses over the last 30 years has been 79%.


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## sparky970

klien tools said:


> Once again cccp, learn to speak our language or get the hell out. Go crawl back under your rock, for piss sake a 2yr old makes better sense than you do. I don't think this worm is russian, he sounds like he is asian to me. I'm guessing that cccp doesn't work commercial or industrial work because he doesn't have enough intelligence or ability. If a guy like this ever did show up on a big job, I am sure he would have to fear for his safety after spewwing his diareha out of his mouth about sucking ass up to the contractor and stabbing his brothers in the back.



Don't get your panties in a wad. Can't you see he's trolling. You're doing exactly what he wants


----------



## TattooMan

knowshorts said:


> To the MN guys,
> 
> I don't know if you are one of the same or not. It doesn't really matter. Anyways, I would like to be the first to welcome you both to this forum. I understand you are bitter, angry, pissed, upset, whatever. I guess lack of work will do that to a man. What I am amazed about is, after spending a year in SLP, Minnetonka, and Bloomington, I cant remember meeting someone some grumpy. But like I said, maybe the lack of work has done that to you.
> 
> I am not gonna dissect a couple dozen posts, but there is work for you to do. If you need to go to ND for work to provide for your family, then do it. Come home every other week. Go find work at one of the casinos. Find a job at the mall. Find something. Shovel snow. Your family is counting on you.
> 
> About the post about busting your ass installing on those fixtures....Guess what? You know what your reward was? You were expecting long term employment, but guess what, your reward was exactly what was originally agreed upon. A paycheck. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> You need to remember life is a social game. It doesn't matter how great you think you are, or how fast you think you are. You need to make the people paying you like you. At work, use the same principles you used to land your wife. I know you don't look like a 23 year old Brad Pitt, have a million in the bank, or have a 10" personality. But for some reason she saw something in you to keep you around.


10" personality ::laughing:


----------



## Charlie K

BuzzKill said:


> Union work has gone overseas...Union manufacturing job losses over the last 30 years has been 79%.


People say this but 80% of the factories in my area that left were Nonunion. Yes there were some union plants that closed but it was not the unions it was the market. I am going back about 20 years to current. The reason I know this is we were hired to disconnect equipment and get it ready to move.


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## SHOPROCKET1

CCCP The life parner not home yet? 


E wiz started doing electric in 1994. 

And I don't know where I said I've only worked 8 months in 4 yrs????? I worked 6 last year hoping for more this year, no matter what I have to do. Long story short we can "bid" on jobs now on the job line. If you are #300 and guys 1-299 don't call in and make themselves available for work, you get the job. When I first got laid off the hall would call guys 1,2,3,4 and offer the job every day. This now gives the guys at the back a chance to work if no one if front of him wants the job. I make myself available for all jobs, if they don't get to me I try again on the next call. Maybe you guys have had that for a while but our local started it 2 yrs ago maybe? I admit I waited around the first yr I was off, as far as traveling goes. I never thought it would be this bad.


----------



## cdnelectrician

sparky970 said:


> Don't get your panties in a wad. Can't you see he's trolling. You're doing exactly what he wants


Yea, it's pretty obvious that cccp is a troll. Honestly don't people have better things to do? Sad.


----------



## Mr Rewire

lightning rod said:


> I am a union electrician in mn and am tired of being laid off. I have worked a little over *8 months* total in the last *4yrs.*


Maybe it is you :whistling2:


----------



## klien tools

Yea, I don't know what kind of LOW LIFE gets off on laughing at people who are laid off, and suffering. Probably likes torturing small animals too. Extremely disturbing that we have people like that walking around in society, much less working next to you on a job site.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

Mr Rewire said:


> Maybe it is you :whistling2:


 

I'm 'shoprocket1' REWIRE......LIGHTININGROD is a buddy of mine. We are not the same....I catch more fish than him and a better shot on the wing! Plus, I'm not quite as angry as him, and have never been to Iraq. He actually told me about this site. I'm sure the moderator can say that we are indeed different people! I have probably worked 9 mos of electrical since '09 in my local but I have picked up odd jobs too. I was doing maint. on townhomes until dec. when I took a 3 week job in 110. If calls don't get to me in May I will do that again until one gets to me. I was told I'll be busier than a one legged man in an a$$ kicking contest at these townhomes this spring?????? We'll see.


----------



## BuzzKill

Charlie K said:


> People say this but 80% of the factories in my area that left were Nonunion. Yes there were some union plants that closed but it was not the unions it was the market. I am going back about 20 years to current. The reason I know this is we were hired to disconnect equipment and get it ready to move.


Overall, man, overall: sure things may be different in your area but statistically speaking, non union labor has stayed the same while union labor has declined 80% in the manufacturing division over the last 30 years. The evidence is clear: union companies prohibit capital investment by companies in themselves, thus allowing non union companies to better compete.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

In our area all contractors from all trades have started a program called pro 10. This is supposed to provide the best people and best workers the Union has to offer. I took this class with Lighteningrod.....he lit up that teacher too, the man pulls no punches, guess thats what scud missles do to a guy. Anyways, this class was a total joke but if you have the certificate it will get you on any job that requires you to be pro 10 certified. MN is still hanging in there with the Unions being stong, but there is NO question that the non union shops are busier than ours.....with out a doubt.


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> In our area all contractors from all trades have started a program called pro 10. This is supposed to provide the best people and best workers the Union has to offer. I took this class with Lighteningrod.....he lit up that teacher too, the man pulls no punches, guess thats what scud missles do to a guy. Anyways, this class was a total joke but if you have the certificate it will get you on any job that requires you to be pro 10 certified. MN is still hanging in there with the Unions being stong, but there is NO question that the non union shops are busier than ours.....with out a doubt.


Pro 10 sounds like too little too late a false band-aid to feel good?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

Roger that! We took it so we would be "hireable" if a call came in that said "must be pro 10 certified" So far we are 2 guys of 70 out of 1900 that have taken the course.


----------



## 360max

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Roger that! We took it so we would be "hireable" if a call came in that said "must be pro 10 certified" So far we are 2 guys of 70 out of 1900 that have taken the course so far.


...so, do tell, whats involved in the pro 10 course?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

jordan_paul said:


> Knowing I got under your skin will make me smile tomorrow while I collect a paycheque while you collect a glorified welfare cheque.
> 
> But remember man this is only this internet. Maybe I'm not even an electrician.......... Maybe I'm actually a die hard union guy who only works 6 months a year because of my big mouth......maybe I sit down on the job and bitch to the BA because I had to work 1.25 minutes past quitting time.............maybe I'm unemployed right now.
> 
> You're a joke ahhahahaha,


 
So Jordan...you're a 3rd yr appretice going on line and talking smack!!! Help me I need advice?????? BOO HOO!!! I love it!! I bet you're 22, 23 yrs old got the world by the tail! Ha! Hilarious! Did your shop get you an arc flash suit when you drilled into that 400 amp gear hot? That is 35,000 degrees phase to phase...oh but you probably already know that??? Proper PPE? The correct calorie suit? Are you NFP70-E trained? Do you know what that all even is? HA! You my friend are a not an electrician...you are an apprentice electrician! Pass your test then talk tough! Keep your mouth shut cub!!! You had better talk to your "friend" the boss and have the proper gear sent out to you when you do things like that.....and what is an apprentice doing in a hot piece of gear.....oh it just keeps getting better!!:laughing::laughing::laughing: you live with the folks still too don't you? You had no spine to defend your life "I'd better ask the guys online what they'd do". Guess what LIGHTINING ROD didn't get to do that when the scud missles were comming down on their camp in Kuwaitt!! This is exacly what I'm talking about, if I complain I might get laid off. You Sally!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

360max said:


> ...so, do tell, whats involved in the pro 10 course?


 
It's a lot like the code of excellence. I'll try to get more info about it but here's the gist. The unions are trying to get back market share and one of the ways is to put the workers thru a 10 hr course teaching them how not to be animals. I'm sure there is something on line I'll try to find it then post it. Basically this give 8 for 8, no cat calling, Know how to wear PPE, be aware of your surroundings, look out for others, have a positive union attitude to whomever you speak to, get rigging training, safety first, organize non union electricians, treat cutomers with respect.......This is not just an electrical trade thing here. This is being trained by all trades and contractors in MN to try to keep out of state out of country non union trades out I think.


----------



## chicken steve

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> It's a lot like the code of excellence. I'll try to get more info about it but here's the gist. The unions are trying to get back market share and one of the ways is to put the workers thru a 10 hr course teaching them how not to be animals. I'm sure there is something on line I'll try to find it then post it. Basically this give 8 for 8, no cat calling, Know how to wear PPE, be aware of your surroundings, look out for others, have a positive union attitude to whomever you speak to, get rigging training, safety first, organize non union electricians, treat cutomers with respect.......This is not just an electrical trade thing here. This is being trained by all trades and contractors in MN to try to keep out of state out of country non union trades out I think.


 
My dear Lad,

 you should be aware the old addage _"Pride Goes before the fall"_ rings to near deafening levels on your posts

Let me tell you something, my grandaparents were immigrants who worked the sweat shops, they held secret meetings to form unions, much to thier own personal hazard

My Uncle rose to union rep in the next generation

Do you honestly think the inception of collectivist labor utlilized these one upmanship tactics your writing us? 

Rather, you were either pro collective, _or _co. man, _period_. They did not pose themselves as better tradesmen because they knew too well they'd fall victim to such volition

Instead, they sold themselves as a protectant for labor doled out with accountability

that you've come so full circle from your roots is sad commentary on the state of the unions

what i'd suggest is you do some reading

~CS~


----------



## jordan_paul

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> So Jordan...you're a 3rd yr appretice going on line and talking smack!!! Help me I need advice?????? BOO HOO!!! I love it!! I bet you're 22, 23 yrs old got the world by the tail! Ha! Hilarious! Did your shop get you an arc flash suit when you drilled into that 400 amp gear hot? That is 35,000 degrees phase to phase...oh but you probably already know that??? Proper PPE? The correct calorie suit? Are you NFP70-E trained? Do you know what that all even is? HA! You my friend are a not an electrician...you are an apprentice electrician! Pass your test then talk tough! Keep your mouth shut cub!!! You had better talk to your "friend" the boss and have the proper gear sent out to you when you do things like that.....and what is an apprentice doing in a hot piece of gear.....oh it just keeps getting better!!:laughing::laughing::laughing: you live with the folks still too don't you? You had no spine to defend your life "I'd better ask the guys online what they'd do". Guess what LIGHTINING ROD didn't get to do that when the scud missles were comming down on their camp in Kuwaitt!! This is exacly what I'm talking about, if I complain I might get laid off. You Sally!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


You don't have to be licensed to see you are a lazy good for nothing asshole. Maybe you should SALT, or better yet quit the union because its obvious they aren't doing a ****ing thing for you. You are the typical union drum beater, you have an excuse for everything to make yourself or atleast convince yourself that you being out of work is not your fault. Remember you're a family man first, an electrician second and a union man third. Again, it dosent take someone with an electrical license to see you have your priorities mixed up.

I'm glsd you went through my post history and found that, but that has nothing to do with you being out of work for 4 years taking a welfare cheque.

Keep chirping J-Man, I may be an apprentice but I'm miles ahead of you when it comes to being a good worker. Its sad I made more then you in the past two years as an apprentice then you did as the "great union J-man."


----------



## Salvatoreg02

lightning rod said:


> I am a union electrician in mn and am tired of being laid off. I have worked a little over 8 months total in the last 4yrs. I am thinking about just saying screw it and going non-union. lower wages is better than no wages. My hall has basically hung myself and about 35% of our members out to dry. My local took in so many guys years back and now is flooded with workers and no work. We have people failing drug tests, coming in late, apprentices failing their state tests, guys banking hours, guys working straight time on weekends and just banking their time also. People who turn in their vacation days and not taking vacation also. All this **** is going on in my hall and probably in every hall but the people in charge just look the other way. What the hell am I PAYING DUES FOR THEN? Where is the equality, the fairness. I go and have taken almost every class there is out there to take, and for what. If you do get a job, its for a couple months a year and then your laid off because your the newest guy in the shop. When the shop gets busy again they will just put in a call for more HALL TRASH right...
> 
> The ibew wonders why they are loosing members huh? Maybe its because they take members in the back door and keep them working because they break the rules as mentioned above and the guys who go to school and bust their ass just, do stuff the right way get the shaft.
> 
> Want to take a good class, take the code of excellence. Learn how you should be doing everything safely to cover the contractors ass and then get on a job and actually ask for that flash suit or other safety gear, see what happens to you. You wind up LAID OFF, but if you didn't ask for it and then got hurt then once again your LAID OFF because you should have asked for it.
> 
> I am just getting to the point that I have decided that my union has decided that they don't really want any of the guys who are laid off around any more. The people in the hall and the guys working steady act like people who are laid off are lazy or just want to be off. OOOHHH I'm sorry did I miss that call for work, Hell no because there isn't any. Maybe if the guys who are fortunate enough to have a job would actually take their time off when they have their vacation time like they are supose to do, then maybe some guys off could at least get a short call once in a while.


I feel your pain! Be proactive and go on your own or go somewhere else. The union is f/uped. Think positive and don't let the negative hold you down. 
Love,
IBEW 3


----------



## brian john

chicken steve said:


> My dear Lad,
> 
> 
> Do you honestly think the inception of collectivist labor utlilized these one upmanship tactics your writing us?
> 
> Rather, you were either pro collective, _or _co. man, _period_. They did not pose themselves as better tradesmen because they knew too well they'd fall victim to such volition
> 
> 
> ~CS~


 Because in lieu of improving the trade they made the lowest common work effort the norm and now years later the fruits of their efforts have been paid off as jobs stream out of the USA.

Seems like a good plan.


----------



## brian john

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I feel your pain! Be proactive and go on your own or go somewhere else. The union is f/uped. Think positive and don't let the negative hold you down.
> Love,
> IBEW 3


 
The union can be a very good operation for all involved, unfortunatly after extended periods of bad economic times, the union has little to offer.

The unions and the contractors all need to be on the same page but this seldom happens as there is a long standing mistrust of each other.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

n


chicken steve said:


> My dear Lad,
> 
> you should be aware the old addage _"Pride Goes before the fall"_ rings to near deafening levels on your posts
> 
> Let me tell you something, my grandaparents were immigrants who worked the sweat shops, they held secret meetings to form unions, much to thier own personal hazard
> 
> My Uncle rose to union rep in the next generation
> 
> Do you honestly think the inception of collectivist labor utlilized these one upmanship tactics your writing us?
> 
> Rather, you were either pro collective, _or _co. man, _period_. They did not pose themselves as better tradesmen because they knew too well they'd fall victim to such volition
> 
> Instead, they sold themselves as a protectant for labor doled out with accountability
> 
> that you've come so full circle from your roots is sad commentary on the state of the unions
> 
> what i'd suggest is you do some reading
> 
> ~CS~


 
I never said I was better than anyone on here. There is no one that protects anyone in the trades. Maybe in other Unions but not here. There is no HR department. I'm not disagreeing with most posts on here about what things are like out there. I don't even know what in the hell your talking about....do I need to bring a lawyer in here to translate this gibberish? I am actually reading a great book now..."Band of Brothers" saw the HBO show but now reading the book. Let me tell you "Lad", I'm fully aware of what people have laid down for me and I do not need a lecture about accountabillity from you!


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

brian john said:


> Because in lieu of improving the trade they made the lowest common work effort the norm and now years later the fruits of their efforts have been paid off as jobs stream out of the USA.
> 
> Seems like a good plan.


 
You are wrong here, there are all kinds of classes thatare held for all who want to take then to improve knowlege and skills in the trade,jobs have left because it's less expensive to hire.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

jordan_paul said:


> You don't have to be licensed to see you are a lazy good for nothing asshole. Maybe you should SALT, or better yet quit the union because its obvious they aren't doing a ****ing thing for you. You are the typical union drum beater, you have an excuse for everything to make yourself or atleast convince yourself that you being out of work is not your fault. Remember you're a family man first, an electrician second and a union man third. Again, it dosent take someone with an electrical license to see you have your priorities mixed up.
> 
> I'm glsd you went through my post history and found that, but that has nothing to do with you being out of work for 4 years taking a welfare cheque.
> 
> Keep chirping J-Man, I may be an apprentice but I'm miles ahead of you when it comes to being a good worker. Its sad I made more then you in the past two years as an apprentice then you did as the "great union J-man."


 
Glad I was able to put a smile on your face! Sounds like I may be under your skin? Ever thought that maybe they keep you around because your an apprentice and you are cheap labor? Especially when you give it away? We have 557 JW off but all app. are working....is that beacause they know more and are better workers? My work ethic has never been questioned...ever. You have no character son! Careful in those hot panels. Your shop cares about you! Remember man this is just the internet!!!! Is this post by Jordan not one ups manship Steve? Hipocracy? This kid gets a kick out of the fact that guys aren't working and labels themas lazy when we hasn't a clue. Is this what the nonunion sector is like? Do I want to go there?


----------



## klien tools

So big mouth jordan is just a wee cubby, and he thinks he knows everything. I am guessing that he must really hate his job, and can't stand to look at himself in the mirror, partly being a rat and partly being a frenchy. You are so happy at work yet you rush home and jump on the computer to bash americans who are out of work. Whats the matter, is the lic. jorneyman picking on you at work and you can't take it, so you have to go home and try to vent your anger by attacking jorneymen on the internet. Here's a idea for you, maybe if you spent as much time studying to pass your jorneymans test as you did shooting off your mouth on the computer you would have your lic. already. I am guessing that you won't make it very long in this trade, people like you are bound to shoot your mouth off sooner or later on a job site and it won't take long till you cross the wrong guys in person and not from the safety of your computer. That is if you don't hurt or kill yourself and others on a job from working unsafely because you think you know it all.


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> You are wrong here, there are all kinds of classes thatare held for all who want to take then to improve knowlege and skills in the trade,jobs have left because it's less expensive to hire.


 
Read jobs leaving the USA, our jobs are not leaving they are going open shop. A lot of that has to do with the economy and a lack of a decent PR program by the unions.

We need a decent campaign to present the unions and there has to be more than lip service, of we are better them them. We need to be better.

There was a picture in the news paper years ago when they had finished building a stadium all union in our area. The picture below the caption is built with IBEW union labor.

Never saw a bigger bunch of maggots posing for a picture. They might be the best of the best work wise, but for goodness sake wear something decent to get a picture representing the local in a major newspaper.


----------



## cccp sparky

You can't give the class Code of Excellence and expect any changes.


----------



## FCR1988

brian john said:


> Never saw a bigger bunch of maggots posing for a picture. They might be the best of the best work wise, but for goodness sake wear something decent to get a picture representing the local in a major newspaper.


I'm non union, so maybe I don't belong here, but this was one main reason why I and a few of my classmates got turned off from the union. While I was in school they were wiring a new building and we got to take a walk through with the foreman (which was pretty exciting), but the way he conducted himself was embarrassing (he went on and on about how he'd rather cut wood than work for anything under $30)


----------



## cccp sparky

I propose the new forum here.

It is the forum for a union foreman to complain about a lazy incompetent electrician sent to his job from a dispatcher. I not laughing now. 
It is the disenchanting to work hard, and try building something, only to have a men sent to job who only want the money for a nothing.

I guess a bad attitude from the shoprocket and klien is okay, if they can bust the hump and get a crap done, without a babysitting, that is all the cccp cares about.


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> You are wrong here, there are all kinds of classes thatare held for all who want to take then to improve knowlege and skills in the trade,jobs have left because it's less expensive to hire.


All kinds of classes that Few take.


----------



## cccp sparky

brian john said:


> All kinds of classes that Few take.


Most important a habits cannot be taught by the classes.

The work ethic is something encultured into the child by a parents.

When a modern union culture combined with the free money for unemployment corrupts a work ethic, what can be done to the save it?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

cccp sparky said:


> I propose the new forum here.
> 
> It is the forum for a union foreman to complain about a lazy incompetent electrician sent to his job from a dispatcher. I not laughing now.
> It is the disenchanting to work hard, and try building something, only to have a men sent to job who only want the money for a nothing.
> 
> I guess a bad attitude from the shoprocket and klien is okay, if they can bust the hump and get a crap done, without a babysitting, that is all the cccp cares about.


 
You are right CCCP those guys should be dumped on the spot. I think if you've read my posts I said that thats one thing the hall has to do is clean house of those types. Let guys that want to work earn the money.
This is not preschool and everyone doesn't get a trophy.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

brian john said:


> All kinds of classes that Few take.


 
Quite a few guys take classes up here. There was an electrical grounding class that I wanted to take but I had prior commitments. I'd like to take the high volt cable splicing cass too. Maybe get my CDL? Is the culture that different between states and thats why some us aren't seeing eye to eye on some things here? I just have never seen or heard any of the things guys are saying about unions here in MN? Time to figure this out here we are pissing into the wind by bickering.


----------



## IBEWRockstar

lightning rod said:


> Hey you guys can justify your actions any way you want to justify what you do. I take issue with "brothers" who do not go by the union rules and skirt the laws by justifying it one way or another. How would you feel if you were laid off and knew there were guys banking hours and getting full checks 3 weeks a month but had to sacrafice that one week a month. It would sound like a joke to you wouldn't it. Then you have others who call you lazy when they no nothing about you or how often you have worked out of town, pretty piss poor excuse of a brother and a human being to me and most. This is the reason why the ibew is going down the toilet right there. Thank you to the morons on here who prove the reasons why the ibew is failing its members. My only hope is that what comes around goes around and bites you right in the ass. Why don't you guys just go back to your non union shops, it would save you paying dues.


Do you whine this much on job sites too?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

IBEWRockstar said:


> Do you whine this much on job sites too?


 
Is that whining or speaking up and fighting for what you believe in...right or wrong? As long as you walk your talk!


----------



## IBEWRockstar

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> It's a lot like the code of excellence. I'll try to get more info about it but here's the gist. The unions are trying to get back market share and one of the ways is to put the workers thru a 10 hr course teaching them how not to be animals. I'm sure there is something on line I'll try to find it then post it. Basically this give 8 for 8, no cat calling, Know how to wear PPE, be aware of your surroundings, look out for others, have a positive union attitude to whomever you speak to, get rigging training, safety first, organize non union electricians, treat cutomers with respect.......This is not just an electrical trade thing here. This is being trained by all trades and contractors in MN to try to keep out of state out of country non union trades out I think.


Shouldn't this be part of your first year of apprenticeship?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

IBEWRockstar said:


> Shouldn't this be part of your first year of apprenticeship?


 
Dude it should just be human nature, it's a joke. Like Boris said you learn these things from your parents. I'm not disagreeing I took the class so if a job came in that said "must be pro 10 certified" I could get hired on that job. Hey, I take any class I can to give me an advantage. Even dumb ones.....4 HRS I'LL NEVER GET BACK!!!


----------



## slickvic277

The Code of Excellence is a joke. What are we? 7 years old? GTFOH with that nonsense. Embarrassing. :no:


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

slickvic277 said:


> The Code of Excellence is a joke. What are we? 7 years old? GTFOH with that nonsense. Embarrassing. :no:


See above! If a call comes in that requires it and you don't have it...you don't get the job. Look on the 110 web site under jobs right now, there are 2 on there that require it today.....


----------



## slickvic277

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> See above! If a call comes in that requires it and you don't have it...you don't get the job. Look on the 110 web site under jobs right now, there are 2 on there that require it today.....


My local doesn't practice such scabby-nonsense.
After all, one of the requirements of apprenticeship application is to be a high school grad. Actually, I believe the COE DVD is collecting dust on the BM's shelf. :laughing:


----------



## BIGRED

slickvic277 said:


> My local doesn't practice such scabby-nonsense.
> After all, one of the requirements of apprenticeship application is to be a high school grad. Actually, I believe the COE DVD is collecting dust on the BM's shelf. :laughing:


Yo Vic, I remember going down to 98 30yrs. ago. I had my GED, well the guy walks up to the podium turns on the light and says "If you have your GED, you might as well get the  out now", I was done before I even got started.


----------



## slickvic277

BIGRED said:


> Yo Vic, I remember going down to 98 30yrs. ago. I had my GED, well the guy walks up to the podium turns on the light and says "If you have your GED, you might as well get the  out now", I was done before I even got started.


:laughing:

Im sure your smarter and more educated then half the local!


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

slickvic277 said:


> My local doesn't practice such scabby-nonsense.
> After all, one of the requirements of apprenticeship application is to be a high school grad. Actually, I believe the COE DVD is collecting dust on the BM's shelf. :laughing:


 
Don't even know how to respond to this????? Enjoy that Jack Daniels tonight boys! Ummmm.....yeeeee haw?


----------



## cccp sparky

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Don't even know how to respond to this?????


The Shoprocket might prefer a dispatch styles of the local 98, compared to the way of all other ibew locals.

Maybe if the CCCP can choose half the manpower coming out to a jobsite, I can have a chance for less stress and more the success.


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## brother

Heres some jobs

http://www.roadtechs.com/green/wwwboard/getpost.php?rec_nbr=196890


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## brian john

BIGRED said:


> Yo Vic, I remember going down to 98 30yrs. ago. I had my GED, well the guy walks up to the podium turns on the light and says "If you have your GED, you might as well get the  out now", I was done before I even got started.


I was told after attempting to get in I was not qualified to be an electrician and might considering plumbing.


----------



## chicken steve

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Is that whining or speaking up and fighting for what you believe in...right or wrong? As long as you walk your talk!


 
alright

_specifically_ then....

please _speak up_ and clarify what you believe is worth_ fighting_ for Mr Shoprocket

~CS~


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

chicken steve said:


> alright
> 
> _specifically_ then....
> 
> please _speak up_ and clarify what you believe is worth_ fighting_ for Mr Shoprocket
> 
> ~CS~


 
Everyones beliefs are different proven by this thread. I believe the second or third post on this thread was YOU saying "truer words are seldom spoken here"........I didn't send the origininal post starting this thread LIGHTENINGROD did.....just "fighting" for someone being accused of being a whiner for saying how they feel about his treatment by the hall and his fellow union members when I know he wasn't whining he's venting and pissed off. Agree, disagree I don't care thats fine. Should we change this thread to talking about politics or religion?


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Everyones beliefs are different proven by this thread. I believe the second or third post on this thread was YOU saying "truer words are seldom spoken here"........I didn't send the origininal post starting this thread LIGHTENINGROD did.....just "fighting" for someone being accused of being a whiner for saying how they feel about his treatment by the hall and his fellow union members when I know he wasn't whining he's venting and pissed off. Agree, disagree I don't care thats fine. Should we change this thread to talking about politics or religion?


He may be the best of the best, and his initial post received support, but after that he attacked electricians and seemed to be spreading a layer of BS. At that point the vultures on this forum will jump, some a bit too hard.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

brian john said:


> He may be the best of the best, and his initial post received support, but after that he attacked electricians and seemed to be spreading a layer of BS. At that point the vultures on this forum will jump, some a bit too hard.


 
I've seen that. I'm not a CPU guy and really don't do the thread thing, at first it was fun just responding to peolple. But then you find yourself having to defend every comma you put in your post! I can have a sharp tounge too which doesn't help.  The way I saw it the "vultures" baited him and he lashed out at electricians that did things that he didn't feel was right, not all electricians....it really makes no difference to me. And LIGHTENINGROD seems like he's going to live!


----------



## oldschoolvdub

I always say I'm never going to get sucked onto the pro-union/anti-union threads because the posts are always going from extreme left field to extreme right field. Just as there are pros and cons of being part of the union, there are also pros and cons of how business is conducted between the employer and the employee. I am a union.member and have been for the last 7 years. I have worked on big jobs, small jobs, service, and some low voltage. Everyjob is different, as is every JW.

Work is getting tough to find right now and has been for a couple years. I have stayed fairly busy and am greatful for that, but i cant say the same for my entire local. There are a lot of guys that either only want to work on the big jobs with lots of overtime or have burned their bridges with so many contractors that they have to wait til out of town contractors come around. I find that if I stay busy and don't complain, then j usually don't have a problem keeping a job. And j also have never been told j cant have a piece of safety equipment and have never been laid off for a minor injury. If anything I think it is because the union that the shops in my area push safety so hard. 

Lightning, I don't know your exact situation and I hope work turns around and everything looks better soon. But as for badmouthing the union and organised members, I don't feel that's ok. I'm happy you got some steam off and j think now would be a good time to move to the next topic. Haha......


----------



## bobelectric

The next time you attend a Union meeting, cry to your B.A., not us.


----------



## klien tools

bobelectric said:


> The next time you attend a Union meeting, cry to your B.A., not us.


Who was talking to you? You chose to click on this thread, if you don't like it then turn turn your computer off.


----------



## chicken steve

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Everyones beliefs are different proven by this thread. I believe the second or third post on this thread was YOU saying "truer words are seldom spoken here"........I didn't send the origininal post starting this thread LIGHTENINGROD did.....just "fighting" for someone being accused of being a whiner for saying how they feel about his treatment by the hall and his fellow union members when I know he wasn't whining he's venting and pissed off. Agree, disagree I don't care thats fine. Should we change this thread to talking about politics or religion?


 
LR's OP lamented inequality , the internal protection of the unfit assuming a common denominator for all participants _(as others have here)_, no reward for the achievers

you, otoh, seem to dwell on external influences, so i'm compelled to ask what your stance _really_ is.....

~CS~


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

chicken steve said:


> LR's OP lamented inequality , the internal protection of the unfit assuming a common denominator for all participants _(as others have here)_, no reward for the achievers
> 
> you, otoh, seem to dwell on external influences, so i'm compelled to ask what your stance _really_ is.....
> 
> ~CS~


I think if you have really read SOME of my posts you would have seen what my stance is. And it goes farther than Union or nonunion and even in the electrical field. But you can take the time and go back and read them if you are truely interested in knowing my stance. The external influeces I "dwell" on seem to have to be adressed every 10 posts or so because someone comes on here and calls someone a whiner or someother name because the man posting has a complaint. I've seen it on other threads on here also. Isn't thatwhat these boards are all about asking ?'s and venting frustrations? If things were great we'd all be on some other site arguing about if labradors were better hunting dogs than short hairs or something like that. 250 yrs ago a bunch of whiners dumped a bunch of tea into a harbor because they were sick of how the were being treated. Why should a guy just sit back and take the crap that is shoved into his face? Why can't a guy speak up? Should we all sit back and be puppets to the MAN because we may piss someone off? I'm not saying complain over trivial or minor things. But if things are supposed to be a certain way or you would like to see change you need to have a voice! Even at the cost of upsetting a few carts. This "ME FIRST" generation sits back and as long as it doesn't affect "me" well then everything is just fine. Heres an example. 2 yrs ago the MN Twins stadium was being built. The Gov, said there had to be 30% minority work force on that job. 30%! We don't have 30% minorities in our trade nor do any others up here. There were 800 plus guys off in 292 AND 500 plus in St. Paul, not to mention a lot of good non union guys that could have been put to work. But, they were bringing in guys from other locals and guys/gals off the street to fill that quota. Now should a guys sit back and take it up the shoot? Your out of work, you need a job, your a good worker, you live in the state, but people from outstate and that have no experience are coming in to work here. Not their fault, (the minority workers) I'd do it too. When you talk to guys at the hall about it....."nothing we can do, we think it's bs too". Unfortunately alot of these "stimulis" jobs are just like this one, so some workers jump from job to job with little or no time missed and you rot or you get smoked before them because the shop "needs" them, they are the "protected" ones. Just one example. Is that whining or am I the only one that sees a problem with that?


----------



## brian john

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> I think if you have really read SOME of my posts you would have seen what my stance is. And it goes farther than Union or nonunion and even in the electrical field. But you can take the time and go back and read them if you are truely interested in knowing my stance. The external influeces I "dwell" on seem to have to be adressed every 10 posts or so because someone comes on here and calls someone a whiner or someother name because the man posting has a complaint. I've seen it on other threads on here also. Isn't thatwhat these boards are all about asking ?'s and venting frustrations? 250 yrs ago a bunch of whiners dumped a bunch of tea into a harbor because they were sick of how the were being treated. Why should a guy just sit back and take the crap that is shoved into his face? Why can't a guy speak up? Should we all sit back and be puppets to the MAN because we may piss someone off? I'm not saying complain over trivial or minor things. But if things are supposed to be a certain way or you would like to see change you need to have a voice! Even at the cost of upsetting a few carts. This "ME FIRST" generation sits back and as long as it doesn't affect "me" well then everything is just fine. Heres an example. 2 yrs ago the MN Twins stadium was being built. The Gov, said there had to be 30% minority work force on that job. 30%! We don't have 30% minorities in our trade nor do any others up here. There were 800 plus guys off in 292 AND 500 plus in St. Paul, not to mention a lot of good non union guys that could have been put to work. But, they were bringing in guys from other locals and guys/gals off the street to fill that quota. Now should a guys sit back and take it up the shoot? Your out of work, you need a job, your a good worker, you live in the state, but people from outstate and that have no experience are coming in to work here. Not their fault, (the minority workers) I'd do it too. When you talk to guys at the hall about it....."nothing we can do, we think it's bs too". Unfortunately alot of these "stimulis" jobs are just like this one, so some workers jump from job to job with little or no time missed and you rot or you get smoked before them because the shop "needs" them, they are the "protected" ones. Just one example. Is that whining or am I the only one that sees a problem with that?


OK now you have gone from the realm of minimal logic to ridiculous.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

bobelectric said:


> The next time you attend a Union meeting, cry to your B.A., not us.


 
This is a prime example....why even post this?


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

brian john said:


> OK now you have gone from the realm of minimal logic to ridiculous.


Ridiculous? How? Was it ridiculous that a bunch of workers were burned to death because their employer was affraid they would steal the material so they locked the doors, the building caught on fire and they all died? Or that immigrant workers in California (picking grapes) as recently as the 90's weren't even given bathrooms to use in the fields? Is that too much to ask? Is that more recent and not as hard hitting for you? It was just a point that I was trying to make. People from the south aren't exactly known as the hardest workers or the smartest people that walk the planet. Your from VA right? Thats the south....is that how you view yourself? A NASCAR lovin, hoop dang! saying, dueling banjo playing, tobacco spittin, marry your sister thinking, cotton pickin, square dance dancin, spur wearin, atteneded 4th grade six times, Wranglers jeans forever, Rhinestone cowboy? I bet you don't, and I don't view you like that either, but a lot of people do think that up here. Would you defend yourself againt someone that accused you of being those things? I bet not. And you wouldn't admit to it now anyway. If I have to explain to you why I asked you that question, this whole thing is pointless. What % people are poor in the south? Do you people label them too? What % of people are being paid a fair wage in the south compared to the rest of the nation? It is a fact that the south is by far the weak link in just about every category this nation has. From good education on down.....does that bother you or does it not affect you so you don't care and just label them as something too? Just asking. This is not a slam againt you this is just going after you because you belong to the south and thats just how you are.....right? Just like I'm a lazy whiny union member


----------



## brian john

Shop;

I no longer see any logic in your continual rants, from your first post you have ranted against everyone and everything. You seriously need to take a breath.


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

We are not going to see eye to eye on this.


----------



## chicken steve

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Heres an example. 2 yrs ago the MN Twins stadium was being built. The Gov, said there had to be 30% minority work force on that job. 30%! We don't have 30% minorities in our trade nor do any others up here. There were 800 plus guys off in 292 AND 500 plus in St. Paul, not to mention a lot of good non union guys that could have been put to work. But, they were bringing in guys from other locals and guys/gals off the street to fill that quota. Now should a guys sit back and take it up the shoot? Your out of work, you need a job, your a good worker, you live in the state, but people from outstate and that have no experience are coming in to work here. Not their fault, (the minority workers) I'd do it too. When you talk to guys at the hall about it....."nothing we can do, we think it's bs too". Unfortunately alot of these "stimulis" jobs are just like this one, so some workers jump from job to job with little or no time missed and you rot or you get smoked before them because the shop "needs" them, they are the "protected" ones. Just one example. Is that whining or am I the only one that sees a problem with that?


I'm a foreman on what is the biggest job in southern VT right now Shop

we've more H1B's with Virgina plates than locals

their workmanship amounts to a a zit on a real tradesman a*s imho

add to this all the unlicensed work the state is ignoring _(thier office is walking distance btw)_

also add to this the level of toxins the EPA is walking by, as well as all the violations OSHA is walking by (_because the govenor really wants this place to fly)_

so the jist of your stance is the union _can't _do anything for you?, or perhaps for the_ sake_ of the job?

gee, and here i was frustrated enough to go and sign up....

~CS~


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

chicken steve said:


> I'm a foreman on what is the biggest job in southern VT right now Shop
> 
> we've more H1B's with Virgina plates than locals
> 
> their workmanship amounts to a a zit on a real tradesman a*s imho
> 
> add to this all the unlicensed work the state is ignoring _(thier office is walking distance btw)_
> 
> also add to this the level of toxins the EPA is walking by, as well as all the violations OSHA is walking by (_because the govenor really wants this place to fly)_
> 
> so the jist of your stance is the union _can't _do anything for you?, or perhaps for the_ sake_ of the job?
> 
> gee, and here i was frustrated enough to go and sign up....
> 
> ~CS~


 
Yep....we see eye to eye......I think? We may have to start this over? What in the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Brother Noah1

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> Quite a few guys take classes up here. There was an electrical grounding class that I wanted to take but I had prior commitments. I'd like to take the high volt cable splicing cass too. Maybe get my CDL? Is the culture that different between states and thats why some us aren't seeing eye to eye on some things here? I just have never seen or heard any of the things guys are saying about unions here in MN? Time to figure this out here we are pissing into the wind by bickering.


Just Curious Shoprocket but have you ever received an invitation or attended the "Pickle Party"?


----------



## chicken steve

i'm afraid to ask.....~CS~


----------



## SHOPROCKET1

Brother Noah said:


> Just Curious Shoprocket but have you ever received an invitation or attended the "Pickle Party"?


No couldn't even tell you what one is? I've seen the t shirts though. A guy was wearing one 16 yrs ago June 21st 1995 day 1 of my apprenticeship. In 16 yrs of being in the union I've been to about 5 or 6 union meetings and those are contract meetings. I don't even own an IBEW t shirt. I don't do the sticker thig either. I'm being as honest as I can be here guys. That doesn't seem to be the case with some on here. Any other ?'s...trying not to rant here. Hey ~CS'ER~ I could actually read and understand your last post! It wasn't all Shakespeary!

The following was posted on Local 714's page yesterday......I for one agree with this......

Sisters and Brothers;
I’m writing this lettr because of the things I’ve been hearing going on in this brotherhood. It’s been going on too long and has become common practice.
In my belief a brotherhood is formed to protect the greater good of the majority of the organization. From what I’ve seen lately this is not the case, me included. We as a brotherhood need to start protecting the majority, that do the great work, that made this organization what it is today. Far too often we protect, or just choose to ignore, the problems on the job or in the shop for fear of being labeled unhonorable or unloyal to the brotherhood. When in fact by not speaking up we are letting down the majority, that we know will be behind you all the way.
Case in point, a recent major job was lost to nonunion because we ignored the problems and let the customer down. Which may have cost this brotherhood tens of millions of dollars of work. With out the customer, who will hire Union labor, we have nothing. So if we think we’re doing the right thing, by turning a blind eye to wrong doing, we need to change our way of thinking. We as individuals need to uphold the integrity and ethics of this organization for the greater good.
Work in our local is in abundance at this time, but that could end as quick as it started. Just because we have an over abundance of work, doesn’t mean we can treat the customer with any less respect. The things that we do now, that adversely effect the customer, will come back to haunt us, when times get tight and work is slow.
So in closing, do the best we can with integrity and pride, the rest will take care of itself.
Sincerely, Brother Jeff


----------



## slmraf1

I am a JW union brother from Arizona, looking to travel. Can anybody help???


----------



## brian john

slmraf1 said:


> I am a JW union brother from Arizona, looking to travel. Can anybody help???


 
We have a resident IBEW traveling expert, hopefully he will chime in.

NOAH, where are you working this month?


----------



## slmraf1

Thanks. I hope to hear from him.


----------



## sparky970

slmraf1 said:


> I am a JW union brother from Arizona, looking to travel. Can anybody help???


Local 48 had 10 calls go to book 2 today and 5 unfilled calls for a 2 month job in The Dalles. They've had over 60 calls this week.


----------



## sparky970

Local 932 will be putting out 30-40 calls in the next couple weeks. Supposedly topping out at 160 for a 4 day shutdown


----------



## sparky970

Local 48 had 22 calls for today, 4 unfilled. 48 calls for tomorrow.


----------



## Rockyd

Cool, glad someone has up, and coming work :thumbsup: !


----------



## cowboyznindianz

Mr Rewire said:


> You type the worst Russian accent I have ever readski.


NOW THAT THERES FUNNY AND I DON'T CARE WHO YA ARE....:laughing:


----------



## sparky970

10 of the 48 calls went unfilled. Apparently no one needs a job.


----------



## TattooMan

sparky970 said:


> 10 of the 48 calls went unfilled. Apparently no one needs a job.


And after all that complaining a couple weeks ago...the nerve of some people


----------



## cowboyznindianz

sparky970 said:


> 10 of the 48 calls went unfilled. Apparently no one needs a job.


 
I called today and apparently I need to take the inside exam for Oregon...They said it would take 6 to 8 weeks to get a license...I was an apprentice out of 191 when we built the Pilot travel center in brooks or brookings back in 1997....right there on I-5 8 miles north of Salem...out of 180 now...transfered my apprenticeship in 1997...I think I'll get my license for next time it gets so bad...Californias a slow start compared to other areas...


----------



## sparky970

cowboyznindianz said:


> I called today and apparently I need to take the inside exam for Oregon...They said it would take 6 to 8 weeks to get a license...I was an apprentice out of 191 when we built the Pilot travel center in brooks or brookings back in 1997....right there on I-5 8 miles north of Salem...out of 180 now...transfered my apprenticeship in 1997...I think I'll get my license for next time it gets so bad...Californias a slow start compared to other areas...


In Washington you take your test on a computer and get your results immediately. My apprentice took his test and had license in hand in about a week ans a half.


----------



## brian john

sparky970 said:


> In Washington you take your test on a computer and get your results immediately. My apprentice took his test and had license in hand in about a week ans a half.


That is the way it should be.

In Washington DC it was 4-6 months to apply, 3-4 months to schedule a test, 2-4 months for results. Not sure on the wait today?


----------



## cowboyznindianz

sparky970 said:


> In Washington you take your test on a computer and get your results immediately. My apprentice took his test and had license in hand in about a week ans a half.


 
We take ours here on a computer and get our results immediately but first you have to schedule....the lady I talked to was in Portland....You guys just merged so how does that work...Is there only 1 hall now in Portland where you sign the books...Back in the day, Washington I think recipped with Idaho and Montana as well as Oregon...Oregon however was a 1 way street...They did'nt recip with anyone....They did however enjoy a HEALTHY 95% market share....:yes::yes:


----------



## sparky970

Our hall shut down so we only have Portland. Washington doesn't reciprocate with anyone bit I think Oregon does with Idaho and Montana.


----------



## erics37

sparky970 said:


> Our hall shut down so we only have Portland. Washington doesn't reciprocate with anyone bit I think Oregon does with Idaho and Montana.


And Arkansas, Maine, Utah, and Wyoming.


----------



## erics37

cowboyznindianz said:


> I called today and apparently I need to take the inside exam for Oregon...They said it would take 6 to 8 weeks to get a license...


It'll take a few weeks, but more like 2 to 3. I think they tell you 6 to 8 weeks to lower your expectations :laughing:



> I was an apprentice out of 191 when we built the Pilot travel center in brooks or brookings back in 1997....right there on I-5 8 miles north of Salem


That'd be Brooks. I peed on the wall there by accident once. Brookings is on the south coast, near the California border :thumbup:



> ...out of 180 now...transfered my apprenticeship in 1997...I think I'll get my license for next time it gets so bad...Californias a slow start compared to other areas...


I've got my Oregon and Washington licenses, kicking around the idea of getting the California cert just for the hell of it.


----------



## cowboyznindianz

erics37 said:


> And Arkansas, Maine, Utah, and Wyoming.


 
You would think they would just go for a standardized test that would allow reciprocity accross the board......I guess that would cut too much into individual state funds plus it would make way too much sense....:yes:


----------



## erics37

cowboyznindianz said:


> You would think they would just go for a standardized test that would allow reciprocity accross the board......I guess that would cut too much into individual state funds plus it would make way too much sense....:yes:


:laughing: Yeah. Well, states rights and all that too.


----------



## cowboyznindianz

erics37 said:


> It'll take a few weeks, but more like 2 to 3. I think they tell you 6 to 8 weeks to lower your expectations :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> That'd be Brooks. I peed on the wall there by accident once. Brookings is on the south coast, near the California border :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got my Oregon and Washington licenses, kicking around the idea of getting the California cert just for the hell of it.


What a coinkydink...I've got my California an am thinking about getting Washington and Oregon......:laughing:

I'm pretty low on the books now but if something comes up in socal for a longer gig, I might jump on it....Kids are grown now so I can travel a little if I want to....:thumbup:


----------



## cowboyznindianz

erics37 said:


> :laughing: Yeah. Well, states rights and all that too.


 
They have the right to sign if they pay their dues just like you and I....


----------



## erics37

Well like 970 said, Local 48 is short handed. Tons of dudes out at the Intel site.

Our local is vying for an LNG terminal down in Coos Bay area, if that goes through it will be solid work for a hundred or more guys for a couple years.


----------



## cowboyznindianz

Whats the scale now?


----------



## erics37

cowboyznindianz said:


> Whats the scale now?


Like $37 or something like that, I think.


----------



## TattooMan

erics37 said:


> Well like 970 said, Local 48 is short handed. Tons of dudes out at the Intel site.
> 
> Our local is vying for an LNG terminal down in Coos Bay area, if that goes through it will be solid work for a hundred or more guys for a couple years.


Coos Bay Area?


----------



## brian john

Working for reciprocity of licenses would be a good area for the ABC or IBEW to try to use some clout to push legislation.


----------



## cowboyznindianz

brian john said:


> Working for reciprocity of licenses would be a good area for the ABC or IBEW to try to use some clout to push legislation.


 Copy that...:thumbsup:


----------



## sparky970

Only 20 unfilled calls today.


----------



## bobelectric

klien tools said:


> Who was talking to you? You chose to click on this thread, if you don't like it then turn turn your computer off.


Aye Aye,Sir!*** You're right. This is a "Professional Electrician Forum"!


----------



## sbreba

You must be Local 26 like me huh?


----------



## sbreba

Not in Local 26


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Working for reciprocity of licenses would be a good area for the ABC or IBEW to try to use some clout to push legislation.


The IBEW has been pushing for that for years. The ABC has been fighting licensing of any kind for years. Why do you think Pennsylvania STILL doesn't have a state wide license?


----------



## cowboyznindianz

slickvic277 said:


> The IBEW has been pushing for that for years. The ABC has been fighting licensing of any kind for years. Why do you think Pennsylvania STILL doesn't have a state wide license?


 
Because it would put 1/2 of their electrical work force out of a job until they could comply.....:laughing:


----------



## sparky970

13 unfilled today and 1 book 4 hand took a call


----------



## cowboyznindianz

sparky970 said:


> 13 unfilled today and 1 book 4 hand took a call


 
I caught a call out of 180 on Monday....3 went out today....we've had a few short calls going out....:thumbup:


----------



## brian john

sbreba said:


> Not in Local 26


Who are you asking? I am a signatory contractor with the IBEW.


----------



## slmraf1

*Laid off*

Just got laid off from Intel, out of LU640 in Phx. This is bull****!! cuz we were working 60hrs a week, and still lots of work out there. Rosendin laid off alot of us, why??? 640 is all politics and weak, but this is my home union. Would like to do a little traveling, but need some info on where the jobs are moving into Book 2.


----------



## Zog

cccp sparky said:


> Of course, CCCP's loyalty has its limits....


Awesome quote! :thumbup:


----------



## leland

chicken steve said:


> truer words are seldom posted LR
> 
> i've had the pleasure of working with old ibew salts
> 
> you folks are good sparky's, can't take that away from you
> 
> your history of setting standards speaks for itself, and is the priveledge of any of us in the field
> 
> it's just this internal system i keep hearing about that seems so detrimental
> 
> ~CS~



Well put. Ask a (good) Teacher.

It is 'For the children' after all. Ya right!!!!!!!!! 

There is no money left in the municipalities, The .... are taking and mis-spending it all.

The 'dreaded private' sector refuse to pay the rates. 

Sorry- IMO- Priced selfs right out of work.

But Thank you for all the safety regs etc that have been implemented.

Now they are LAW- so... never mind...


----------



## cowboyznindianz

slmraf1 said:


> Just got laid off from Intel, out of LU640 in Phx. This is bull****!! cuz we were working 60hrs a week, and still lots of work out there. Rosendin laid off alot of us, why??? 640 is all politics and weak, but this is my home union. Would like to do a little traveling, but need some info on where the jobs are moving into Book 2.


 
595 in Dublin Cal. is going into book 2 daily


----------



## Sponge Rob

In salt lake city, the union is at the Utah data center , looking for people. 28.05 + around 7 to 9 in bennies


----------



## Brother Noah1

slmraf1 said:


> Just got laid off from Intel, out of LU640 in Phx. This is bull****!! cuz we were working 60hrs a week, and still lots of work out there. Rosendin laid off alot of us, why??? 640 is all politics and weak, but this is my home union. Would like to do a little traveling, but need some info on where the jobs are moving into Book 2.


Local 639 has had calls left over for their solar farms, all around the bay area in California work has broke and book 2 (license needed on most jobs) 477 has been in need of certified welder/JW's and I hear 440 will need some help from book 2 in the near future. Go to your hall (I hear its on 7th st) speak with a BA get a "Tramp Guide" and get your rep to make a few calls to other locals to check before you jet out on the road.I also hear Brothers and Sisters have been finding employment in Texas and Wyoming working off permits. Now the way you worded "your home union" I will assume you are a new member, so please try and be patient with matters you apparently have little experience with and lets all be thankful we are top side dirt? When you go by your "home union" check on their bandanna's the chili pepper one's are way cool.


----------



## Lemus"TheDon"Navarro

*Vet Waiting to take the aptitude test*

As a veteran who got out of the airforce after 5 years of service as an electrican and returned home to IL 4 NOV 11 waiting to join the apprenticeship program I don't know how good I feel about these negative comments about finding union work I was always told the union was a great choice by others and fellow civilian electricians I worked with during my time in the service all I can do is hope for the best In joining local 701 I miss doing electrical work hopefully my work experience will help me out in my apprenticeship times are hard but we must press on


----------



## chris856

Lemus"TheDon"Navarro said:


> As a veteran who got out of the airforce after 5 years of service as an electrican and returned home to IL 4 NOV 11 waiting to join the apprenticeship program I don't know how good I feel about these negative comments about finding union work I was always told the union was a great choice by others and fellow civilian electricians I worked with during my time in the service all I can do is hope for the best In joining local 701 I miss doing electrical work hopefully my work experience will help me out in my apprenticeship times are hard but we must press on


 This is the worst it has been for anyone in the trade, but things are slowly picking up. I don't know how attached you are to IL, but local 46 in Seattle has an awesome program for veterans. PM me if you want any more info.


----------



## Lemus"TheDon"Navarro

To tell the truth not to attached I got family here but being back making me realize dont feel like home no more guess I got use to the south


----------



## chris856

Lemus"TheDon"Navarro said:


> To tell the truth not to attached I got family here but being back making me realize dont feel like home no more guess I got use to the south


 Well, if you like the south then you would HATE Seattle.


----------



## Lemus"TheDon"Navarro

Well will see got to get in and as said by others go where the work is I can adjust


----------



## brian john

Brother Noah said:


> .



Where have you been?


----------



## TOO_SL:IM

There seems to be a lot of work out there, lots of fed monies going out to local military bases, plus small towns are getting some good grant money. Just need to keep a sharp pencil. Eastside of 191 looks good


----------



## slmraf1

Thanks for the info. I have the material to study for the CA state test and hopefully will be able to take it, in the very near future. Any help with that,would be greatly appreciated. I have been with Local 640, in Phx for 12yrs and unfortunately, this local is very weak and doesn't do alot to back their workers. Work is very, very sporadic, in fact in the 12yrs, I have not worked more than 6-9 months out of each yr and that is working for multiple contractors each yr. One year, I worked for 13 different ones?!?!? Hell to do my taxes that year!


----------



## Brother Noah1

slmraf1 said:


> Thanks for the info. I have the material to study for the CA state test and hopefully will be able to take it, in the very near future. Any help with that,would be greatly appreciated. I have been with Local 640, in Phx for 12yrs and unfortunately, this local is very weak and doesn't do alot to back their workers. Work is very, very sporadic, in fact in the 12yrs, I have not worked more than 6-9 months out of each yr and that is working for multiple contractors each yr. One year, I worked for 13 different ones?!?!? Hell to do my taxes that year!


In the couple three years I have plied the trade I have willingly traveled our great country.I do understand not all desire and or can not be away from the security of family and homestead.My view on this is I chose construction as a way of life, we get our job, work for wages and agree to complete a project, get laid off then repeat the cycle.Along the way I have seen some of the most admired attractions in the world, worked and lived where most people save all year long to go for a week long vacation, and most of all have been blessed to meet some very wonderful people in my travels. Most of my 30 years now I have only worked partial years as well, yet my family lived fairly well off with a few struggles along the way(you know like most people)
So if you can not or do not want to leave your area, I suggest checking into maintenance work or maybe even run for your locals BM position to help put things in order. You earned your yellow ticket and that gives you the right to work union.


----------



## cowboyznindianz

Brother Noah said:


> In the couple three years I have plied the trade I have willingly traveled our great country.I do understand not all desire and or can not be away from the security of family and homestead.My view on this is I chose construction as a way of life, we get our job, work for wages and agree to complete a project, get laid off then repeat the cycle.Along the way I have seen some of the most admired attractions in the world, worked and lived where most people save all year long to go for a week long vacation, and most of all have been blessed to meet some very wonderful people in my travels. Most of my 30 years now I have only worked partial years as well, yet my family lived fairly well off with a few struggles along the way(you know like most people)
> So if you can not or do not want to leave your area, I suggest checking into maintenance work or maybe even run for your locals BM position to help put things in order. You earned your yellow ticket and that gives you the right to work union.


Very well said Brother Noah....:thumbup:


----------



## jimmy21

jordan_paul said:


> How could my banking hours be screwing you, or the rest of the "brothers?" It's one of the stupidest bylaws in that book.
> 
> 
> 
> It is all about me. If I was laid off, how many 'brothers" would step up and make my truck payments? I have to look out for number one. So if that means being buddies with the boss, having the best tools, working fast, not complaining like you are, showing up early, staying a few minutes late than I'll do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I take time off for vacation? If I wanted to take my vacation pay and work right through the year whats so bad about that? And I have moved my vacation time when it dosen't mesh with my companies schedule. For instance I asked for a week off to go up to my families cabin. My boss said he had a big job comming up and that he really needs my help on it. That wasn't a problem, I worked that week and took my week off later on.
> 
> 
> 
> Alot of time I can't bill myself out for time/half or double time. If job one lasts 5 hours, and job two lasts 5.5 hours, I "should get" 2.5 hours of OT right? My boss can't charge customer #2 the OT rate because we were only there for 5.5 hours. If we took the hard line and said we had to have the OT my boss would loose money. If he looses money too many times he will go tits up. If he goes tits up then 6 guys will be out of work. How is that working in anyones favor?
> 
> Stabbing ourselves in the back IS taking the hardline, that's why we have such crappy market share right now. If we actually worked with the people who puts food on our tables we would be farther ahead then we are now. The race to the bottom started when "our brothers" decided to screw over the companies we work for.
> 
> Does it make you mad that I pay 3 dollars a week into a "shop fund" with the boss and other guys? Keep in mind that the owner of my company manages this money too . And that I use my personal cell phone for work related phone calls? And that the odd time I have put a a bit of material in my truck as I was on my way to a job that was close to my house? The problem with YOU union brothers is that you just want, want, want and take, take, take. Working for anyone in any industry is a give and take relationship.
> 
> Like I said before, if you wanted to work you would find it. I asked a few guys I work with what is up with a J-Man that has only worked 8 months in a 4 year period. They all said that he is eaither lazy or useless, there is work out there, sometimes you have to travel for it. Saying there's no where to live near where the work is, is a poor excuse.




It seems to me that only one side is doing the giving and one is doing all the taking. I bet if you got under your bosses desk it would help him relieve stress and he would be able to get you guys more work. Where do you draw the line?

Does your boss sugar coat it or does he come right out and say "I need you to take next week off and instead of letting you collect unemployment, ill just pay you money I already owe you and I'm only going to pay you 2/3 of what I owe you". ???


----------



## Blay

Lightning rod, the reason you probably don't get calls has got to be due to your bad attitude. Though we do put our names on the book, if none of the contractors want to hire you your out of luck. I would start with working on that.


----------



## Echo Four Tango

Local 440, Riverside Ca. has call going into book 2 about every other day.


----------



## Brother Noah1

Echo Four Tango said:


> Local 440, Riverside Ca. has call going into book 2 about every other day.


440 has been putting out on book II along with 639,595,477,479. There are available jobs for those that are willing to go that extra mile and spend the extra time searching for a better way of life for their family.


----------



## D-Bo

Brother Noah said:


> 440 has been putting out on book II along with 639,595,477,479. There are available jobs for those that are willing to go that extra mile and spend the extra time searching for a better way of life for their family.


are you implying dragging the innocent wife and kids around the country with you while you follow the work is a better way of life? that line is just getting old bud


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## brian john

D-Bo said:


> are you implying dragging the innocent wife and kids around the country with you while you follow the work is a better way of life? that line is just getting old bud


It does beat unemployment. Man since the beginning of time has followed the seasons, the herds and for some time the jobs. Heck California is full of those following the gold in 1849.


----------



## D-Bo

brian john said:


> It does beat unemployment. Man since the beginning of time has followed the seasons, the herds and for some time the jobs. Heck California is full of those following the gold in 1849.


i can follow that yeah. i think for some a better way of life would be a steady job and a happy family, and for others its a big check and a benefits package. everyone finds satisfaction in their own way


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## Brother Noah1

D-Bo said:


> are you implying dragging the innocent wife and kids around the country with you while you follow the work is a better way of life? that line is just getting old bud


Actually what I posted was if YOU want something go out and work for it. Don't sit back and wait for others to make it happen for YOU. If this life does not suit YOU then stay were you are make do with what YOU have. I have already posted before that the life I lead is not for every one but I do advocate taking YOUR life into your own hands (perils and all) instead of putting off for tomorrow what should be done today( YOU get what you earn in life.)By the way I believe this thread was started by someone looking to find work out there on the road???
So are you implying a person has to drag their wife and kids on the road in order to work? Or maybe they should stay home and collect government assistance??? 
I have never had to take my family on the road with me but they have followed for some awesome vacations.


----------



## slickvic277

Brother Noah said:


> Actually what I posted was if YOU want something go out and work for it. Don't sit back and wait for others to make it happen for YOU. If this life does not suit YOU then stay were you are make do with what YOU have. I have already posted before that the life I lead is not for every one but I do advocate taking YOUR life into your own hands (perils and all) instead of putting off for tomorrow what should be done today( YOU get what you earn in life.)By the way I believe this thread was started by someone looking to find work out there on the road???
> So are you implying a person has to drag their wife and kids on the road in order to work? Or maybe they should stay home and collect government assistance???
> I have never had to take my family on the road with me but they have followed for some awesome vacations.



Wow.
Punctuation. Clear stream of thought. This is actually a really good post.
:thumbup:


----------



## tbears

*Besco ltd*

BESCO LTD is looking for a service truck driver. Must be a journeyman electrician, with 5-10 years service truck experience. We do HVAC Controls, APC UPS maintenance along with other service type calls. Candidate will be on call at least one week each month. Some evening and weekend work should be expected. Also we are only looking for electricians well versed in the NEC. Bermuda electrical is based on NEC 2011.
We are basically looking for a jack of all trades but a master of none. BESCO will do anything, We need a very mechanically inclined, electrician, who could replace a pump, work on a condenser unit. Fix a jack at the shop, just ready to take on anything thrown his way, figure it out and excel at it. We are located in Hamilton Bermuda.
Interested parties should contact Todd Bears at [email protected] 
On another note, I'm a 32 year member of the IBEW LU #26 Card # D858921, this is a no bulls**t offer.


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## tbears

Dragging the wife and kids around.... My wife has been drug from one end of the country to the other and back, so many times she can't count them, lived in 28 different states since 1991. Now she is in a foreign country, but as she says, being married to me has kept her life interesting! Thing of it is she wouldn't have it any other way. She is usually ready to hit the road before me. But it is a way of life, are you making a living or building a dying. We will never have to ask our selves what if.....


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## zawala

jp. The only person you're screwing over by banking hours and not charging O.T. is yourself. With that being said i agree that the relationship between a worker and an employer has to be give and take. like you said if your boss loses money to often no one will benefit. Unoin or non the game is still the same everyone needs to make money and the ones who can make a contractor the most with the least amount of "issues" tend to stay employed longer.I' m not sure how your Halls work but mine doesn't cut me a check my employer does. You have to pick the battles you fight( as far as rules go). It's Not always right but it is what it is. As for LR. I think Gary/ Hammond is still rolling guys out on book two. Good money to.


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## sparky970

Not sure about other contractors on the West coast, but we'll be hiring over 100 people by the first of the year.


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## Cl906um

if you two would stop argueing for a second, i would like to add some input.yes. banking hours is wrong. working over for straight time is wrong. show some old fashioned brotherhood for a minute. i think the union has some great electricians still. maybe you have a high opinion of yourself. but there is work out there.go onto ibew jobs board and find it. maybe take a salting class and try working for a non union contractor. youll find out soon enough what it is too truly be taken advantage of. i should know. i worked in an open shop 13 years , union now for last 7. work is slow in most locals. join the club. just stop bashing everyone else. now is not the time to seperate brotherhood. i am currently working at a hospital with several jobs going. some union some not.we have salts with the out of town rats. treating them humanely seems to work well. may have future nob's.


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## knowshorts

Out of town rats? Nice. How about digging through your history books and tell me when exactly Henry Miller used that derogatory word.


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## Cl906um

dont worry. i got pretty used of being called one. even after i joined the union i was still called one for years. what do u know about that? it took a long time for people to consider me equal in the brotherhood. so i can call the non union whatever i want. i have earned the respect of others in the trade. if its derogatory or i offended you whatever. i worked along side non union workers who were wearing ftu printed on their t shirts. if you havent figured out what that stood for... i told them that unions are the reason why their wages were so good. not because their boss thought they deserved it. it's cause they have to keep up to the union scale to recruit new hires. why else. if no unions existed, we would be working for minimum wage.btw i know what happened on the corner of 36th and newark.


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## brian john

cl219um said:


> if you two would stop argueing for a second, i would like to add some input.yes. banking hours is wrong. working over for straight time is wrong. show some old fashioned brotherhood for a minute. i think the union has some great electricians still. maybe you have a high opinion of yourself. but there is work out there.go onto ibew jobs board and find it. maybe take a salting class and try working for a non union contractor. youll find out soon enough what it is too truly be taken advantage of. i should know. i worked in an open shop 13 years , union now for last 7. work is slow in most locals. join the club. j*ust stop bashing everyone else.* now is not the time to seperate brotherhood. i am currently working at a hospital with several jobs going. some union some not.*we have salts with the out of town rats*. treating them humanely seems to work well. may have future nob's.


You are a bit of a hypocrite, and a bigot as well.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Cl906um

Why is that being a bigot? Or even a hypocrite? The union I work out of has little work at this moment. When I got in there was more. It is a hard time to organize one or two cause how do you bring people in without jobs? In my opinion, it's go big or go home. I think we should be less selective on organizing men. We have been taking in few by some crappy testing process that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be good electricians or not. I may have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, but when I got out of high school I applied for union apprenticeship next to my friend who's uncle was the ba. He got in, but not me.you know who is still in the trade? You can think what you want about me. I decided to go non union at this time and after some years, abc apprenticeship, and two state licenses I went back. Organize is what I'm saying. If someone wants to be an electrician. Let them give it a try. Let them in.. At least for a two year trial. I had to cross picket lines to start out. Not proud moment in my life. Call me hardened. Not a bigot. Got any more insults?


----------



## spiderneck30

Im a non union guy who just got accepted into local 25. However i am a little worried. For one, i am currently working open shop with a great company that is growing and has plenty of work, great pay, 401k, benefits, lots of overtime, prevailing wage jobs etc. Things are just great and the future looks promising with this particular company. At the same time i just got the acceptance letter from the IBEW. Now i know that going union may seem like a no brainer. But the problem is that EVERYWHERE i look and EVERYONE i talk to and EVERY THREAD i read seem to suggest that joining the union is synonomous to sitting on the bench. Lots of stories about guys working only 2-3 months a year and etc.

I really want the union and the opportunity is now here. But i dont want to leave a shop which has work for the next 10 years just to go union and sit on the bench for most of my life. The local in question is local 25 which covers all of long island, new york. Is there anyone here that can inform me as to the politics of local 25 as well as the percentage of workers who are currently on the bench? A guy on my job said that the current waiting list is TWO YEARS. Thats just crazy man. I know that work can get slow whether union or non union but it just seems like the work union is synonomous with unemployment when i speak to most people. I mean is it really that bad and if so whats the point.


----------



## beach bum

*union work*

happy labor day brothers!!! i hope everyone that is seeking work is finding it !

in regards to work there is a big solar project going on in stateline ( border of california and nevada ) Ivanpah to be exact ..i've talked to a couple of brothers out there n from what they tell me they are bringing home 2500 $$ or more a week..i believe that call is going out of the san bernardino local 440 or 47 ?? if you can handle the heat i think it'll be going on for a bit longer !!! 

there is also a big mining job in close proximity also hailing from those locals !

as for local 11 ( los angeles calif. ) calls have been going into book 4 !!!!!! once again the calls that aren't being filled by the local hands are the ones out in the desert..i think some of those calls have overtime !!

local 11 jobline is 323-517-9618

good luck brothers n sisters...i wish you health n fat wallets !!!!

for all the lucky brothers working rest your bones cause we're back at it tomorrow !!!

beach bum

ps...go raiders !!!


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> You are a bit of a hypocrite, and a bigot as well.
> 
> You should be ashamed of yourself.


But it's OK for you to bash the IBEW whenever you see fit right?
Honestly, you seem to be the hypocrite most often then not.
You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> But it's OK for you to bash the IBEW whenever you see fit right?
> Honestly, you seem to be the hypocrite most often then not.
> You should be ashamed of yourself.


Show me where I bash, there is a difference between the truth and bashing then there is someone saying he does not call others names than says open shop men are RATS.

Vic at least be a little open minded and fair.

If you do not think there are issues with the union and feel others that criticize the union should be ashamed you will become part of the problem not the solution.

If the union is to return to a major factor in the market they need to take a long hard look at how they operate.

Enjoy a hot dog and a beer.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Show me where I bash, there is a difference between the truth and bashing then there is someone saying he does not call others names than says open shop men are RATS.
> 
> Vic at least be a little open minded and fair.
> 
> If you do not think there are issues with the union and feel others that criticize the union should be ashamed you will become part of the problem not the solution.
> 
> If the union is to return to a major factor in the market they need to take a long hard look at how they operate.
> 
> Enjoy a hot dog and a beer.



Well Brian lets see, all over this forum people constantly take shots at the IBEW. And I am not talking about constructive and open conversations. AND you are one of the main offenders.

I never said that there wasn't issues with the union. Don't put words in my mouth. 

I think you gotta lot of nerve calling people hypocrites. You openly attack the IBEW and your own local YET you make a handsome living employing union electricians. Well, supposedly anyway.

Maybe, in a public forum, which anyone, anywhere, at anytime can see you would be a little more supportive of the workforce which you employ. How about sticking an IBEW symbol up on that company website of yours.

You wanna talk about operations? I just got off a _long_ salting gig working side by side with a HUGE open shop contractor. Perhaps I should post all the horror stories of how the REAL MERIT system operates. But no, no, we won't go there.....Because according to the Gospel of Brian John, the open shop is far superior to the IBEW and we all know that your word is the book.....


----------



## Brother Noah1

LU 11 if union you must have a paid up dues receipt with seal, BM to BM with seal before you can get a job but not book 4 ? They have calls left over just about every day for the solar project which does not require a state license, 438 an hour and 6-10's.440 has several calls some that require license others not they are paying in the mid to upper 40's. 639 has solar jobs that does not require license.477 calls have slowed.
Now Brian I chatted with Ed Hill last night and he has received no request to do emergency work during Labor Day. Anyway Labor Day is only of the many benefits we have because our union fore fathers made sacrifices.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> Show me where I bash, there is a difference between the truth and bashing then there is someone saying he does not call others names than says open shop men are RATS.


A couple of points if I might.

The term open as in open shop is meant as an insult to union workers. It originated in the 1920s as part of the 'American Plan' of the NAM. Anyone who has gone through a union apprenticeship is aware of it.

Your disregard for union bylaws and traditions is self professed in your own posts.

Your disdain for salts is disturbing.

Being union is not just holding a card. Your attitude toward the very organization that provides your livelyhood is incomprehensible.

You may be, by some bizarre interpretation, not bashing unions, the ibew, union workers et. al. but you do not say anything positive about them either.

In many respects, you are as much of the problem with the unions as anything else - destroying from the inside.

So go and enjoy your hot dog and beer and contemplate how others perceive you - a self aggrandizing pompous know it all who is better than the filth he has to work with - and take a reflective moment to find a way to change to the person you think you are, a well mannered considerate mechanic who is doing what he can to make the world a better place.

L'Chaim!


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> A couple of points if I might.
> 
> The term open as in open shop is meant as an insult to union workers. It originated in the 1920s as part of the 'American Plan' of the NAM. Anyone who has gone through a union apprenticeship is aware of it.
> 
> Your disregard for union bylaws and traditions is self professed in your own posts.
> 
> Your disdain for salts is disturbing.
> 
> Being union is not just holding a card. Your attitude toward the very organization that provides your livelyhood is incomprehensible.
> 
> You may be, by some bizarre interpretation, not bashing unions, the ibew, union workers et. al. but you do not say anything positive about them either.
> 
> In many respects, you are as much of the problem with the unions as anything else - destroying from the inside.
> 
> So go and enjoy your hot dog and beer and contemplate how others perceive you - a self aggrandizing pompous know it all who is better than the filth he has to work with - and take a reflective moment to find a way to change to the person you think you are, a well mannered considerate mechanic who is doing what he can to make the world a better place.
> 
> L'Chaim!


I get it Love it or leave, no constructive criticism, let the organization fail as SOME blindly follow a path that leads to failure. GOOD POINT.

I am a vegetarian and I don't drink.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

spiderneck30 said:


> Im a non union guy who just got accepted into local 25. However i am a little worried. For one, i am currently working open shop with a great company that is growing and has plenty of work, great pay, 401k, benefits, lots of overtime, prevailing wage jobs etc. Things are just great and the future looks promising with this particular company. At the same time i just got the acceptance letter from the IBEW. Now i know that going union may seem like a no brainer. But the problem is that EVERYWHERE i look and EVERYONE i talk to and EVERY THREAD i read seem to suggest that joining the union is synonomous to sitting on the bench. Lots of stories about guys working only 2-3 months a year and etc.
> 
> I really want the union and the opportunity is now here. But i dont want to leave a shop which has work for the next 10 years just to go union and sit on the bench for most of my life. The local in question is local 25 which covers all of long island, new york. Is there anyone here that can inform me as to the politics of local 25 as well as the percentage of workers who are currently on the bench? A guy on my job said that the current waiting list is TWO YEARS. Thats just crazy man. I know that work can get slow whether union or non union but it just seems like the work union is synonomous with unemployment when i speak to most people. I mean is it really that bad and if so whats the point.


 
A person in the position you describe (if you're not exhaggerating) would be absolutlety CRAZY to join the union. Yes, you'll be laid off alot, and also keep in mind that EVEN when you do work, it may not be at full scale. Jobs around here get bid at 79-85% quite often. Poor union guys pay their dues, pay for apprenticeship, ride the books for a year, and then go to work at 73%. What a frigging joke the IBEW is.


----------



## brian john

What is your preferred terminology- Merit Shop, Non-Union?

From Wiki



Open Shop

An open shop is a place of employment at which one is not required to join or financially support a union (closed shop) as a condition of hiring or continued employment. Open shop is also known as a merit shop.

An open shop is a place of employment at which one is not required to join or financially support a union (closed shop) as a condition of hiring or continued employment. Open shop is also known as a merit shop.

The term open shop is also used similarly in Canada, mostly in reference to construction contractors that have at least a partially non-union workforce. Canadians enjoy the freedom to associate, guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, inherently including the right not to associate.[4]
United States labor law outlaws the open shop in its extreme form: it prohibits private sector employers from refusing to hire employees because they are union members just as it prevents discrimination against employees who do not wish to join unions.[5].
The open shop in its milder form, in which the open shop represents only an employer's refusal to favor union members for employment, is legal. Although the National Labor Relations Act permits construction employers to enter into pre-hire agreements, in which they agree to draw their workforces from a pool of employees dispatched by the union, employers are under no legal compulsion to enter into such agreements.
Non-union construction employers have also adopted the phrase "merit shop" to describe their operations. In many connotations, the terms are interchangeable, however it may be used differently by different sides of the open shop issue.
The open shop is also the legal norm in those states that have adopted right-to-work laws. In those cases, employers are barred from enforcing union security arrangements and may not fire an employee for failure to pay union dues.


The American Plan

The American Plan is the term that most U.S. employers in the 1920s used to describe their policy of refusing to negotiate with unions. The policy promoted union-free "open shops," where workers would not be required to join a labor union. It was endorsed by the National Association of Manufacturers in 1920. As a consequence of companies' promoting the "American Plan," as well as Supreme Court decisions hostile to labor, union membership shrank from 5.1 million in 1920 to 3.6 million by 1929.


----------



## wendon

eejack said:


> A couple of points if I might.
> 
> The term open as in open shop is meant as an insult to union workers. It originated in the 1920s as part of the 'American Plan' of the NAM. Anyone who has gone through a union apprenticeship is aware of it.
> 
> Your disregard for union bylaws and traditions is self professed in your own posts.
> 
> Your disdain for salts is disturbing.
> 
> Being union is not just holding a card. Your attitude toward the very organization that provides your livelyhood is incomprehensible.
> 
> You may be, by some bizarre interpretation, not bashing unions, the ibew, union workers et. al. but you do not say anything positive about them either.
> 
> In many respects, you are as much of the problem with the unions as anything else - destroying from the inside.
> 
> So go and enjoy your hot dog and beer and contemplate how others perceive you - a self aggrandizing pompous know it all who is better than the filth he has to work with - and take a reflective moment to find a way to change to the person you think you are, a well mannered considerate mechanic who is doing what he can to make the world a better place.
> 
> L'Chaim!


Ease up a little, everyone has a right to their opinion just as you obviously aren't afraid to give yours.


----------



## brian john

mcclary's electrical said:


> A person in the position you describe (if you're not exhaggerating) would be absolutlety CRAZY to join the union. Yes, you'll be laid off alot, and also keep in mind that EVEN when you do work, it may not be at full scale. Jobs around here get bid at 79-85% quite often. Poor union guys pay their dues, pay for apprenticeship, ride the books for a year, and then go to work at 73%. What a frigging joke the IBEW is.


The work a North Anna isn't all union?

I know once you get south of Warrenton, East of 95 and Richmond and except for a few pockets down 81 it is pretty much Open/Merit/non-union.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> A couple of points if I might.
> 
> 
> Your disdain for salts is disturbing.
> 
> L'Chaim!



Yep SALTS stink, no other way to cut, low lives trying to destroy a company, I guess I am a basher.

I believe you organize the men outside the shop and if the company doesn't go union through lack of man power is a better approach.


----------



## sparky970

mcclary's electrical said:


> A person in the position you describe (if you're not exhaggerating) would be absolutlety CRAZY to join the union. Yes, you'll be laid off alot, and also keep in mind that EVEN when you do work, it may not be at full scale. Jobs around here get bid at 79-85% quite often. Poor union guys pay their dues, pay for apprenticeship, ride the books for a year, and then go to work at 73%. What a frigging joke the IBEW is.




:no::no::no:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

In 1980 union membership was aroun 21%. Last year it was barely 11% Wonder why that is? 

Union guys honestly think there is no better way, but yet, 11%????? and dropping???? You really keep kidding yourself saying you're the best?? Man, that takes Cahunas (or stupidity)


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

sparky970 said:


> :no::no::no:


 
You show me one frigging thing in there that's false and I'll join the union myself. I personally know people working at 75-85% after riding the books. It's not like I'm making this up (although kinda hard to believe the union would do that)


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> I get it Love it or leave, no constructive criticism, let the organization fail as SOME blindly follow a path that leads to failure. GOOD POINT.
> 
> I am a vegetarian and I don't drink.


Constructive criticism is one thing. What you post is not constructive criticism, it is just plain critical.

Not that there is anything wrong with your viewpoint, just let us bold enough to be honest about it.

I can put a falafel on for you and a nice stewarts birch beer if you prefer.

Nostrovia!


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

eejack said:


> Constructive criticism is one thing. What you post is not constructive criticism, it is just plain critical.
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with your viewpoint, just let us bold enough to be honest about it.
> 
> I can put a falafel on for you and a nice stewarts birch beer if you prefer.
> 
> Nostrovia!


falafel is a good drunk food at 4:00 in the morning.


----------



## stuiec

mcclary's electrical said:


> In 1980 union membership was aroun 21%. Last year it was barely 11% Wonder why that is?
> 
> Union guys honestly think there is no better way, but yet, 11%????? and dropping???? You really keep kidding yourself saying you're the best?? Man, that takes Cahunas (or stupidity)


I am a non-union apprentice. I have a strong work ethic and do my best at work, and consider my work and the company I work for with a certain sense of pride. That being said, It seems to me that in North America, we are slowly but surely working ourselves to the bone. The same work ethic that was hammered into me, along with the disdain for those that did not work as hard, is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. When compared to (some) other developed nations, our mandated holidays and compensation are meager to say the least. I beleive that, given the choice, more would be pro union if the (often unfair) stigma / stereotype of laziness were not propogated by those of us who did not know any better.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> What is your preferred terminology- Merit Shop, Non-Union?


Non union and union. There is nothing insulting in either term. I have heard some folks take 'merit' as an insult so I don't use it.

Words are very important.


----------



## sparky970

mcclary's electrical said:


> You show me one frigging thing in there that's false and I'll join the union myself. I personally know people working at 75-85% after riding the books. It's not like I'm making this up (although kinda hard to believe the union would do that)


I've never been laid off, worked for less than scale, or paid for apprenticeship.:thumbsup:


----------



## eejack

wendon said:


> Ease up a little, everyone has a right to their opinion just as you obviously aren't afraid to give yours.


I am unabashed about my views. I have no problem at all with someone having opinions and ideas far different than mine, but I do like them to be honest when they present them.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> Yep SALTS stink, no other way to cut, low lives trying to destroy a company, I guess I am a basher.
> 
> I believe you organize the men outside the shop and if the company doesn't go union through lack of man power is a better approach.


The way my local salts is to put very good mechanics in non union shops so the contractor can see what real skilled labor can do. I admit, it is not fair, putting a guy with 30 years experience in a shop full of young folks - shark in the guppies tank if you like.

When the contractor sees the work that gets done and the young ones here about the better benefits and pay it is usually just a matter of time.


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> You show me one frigging thing in there that's false and I'll join the union myself. I personally know people working at 75-85% after riding the books. It's not like I'm making this up (although kinda hard to believe the union would do that)


I have never worked below scale and did not pay for my apprenticeship.

I DO get laid off all the time - the last few years I have not worked way more than I have worked.

And I don't doubt what you are saying, I have heard of locals writing special agreements to get particular jobs - so below scale work is likely - so please don't feel obligated to join. 

However, if you are interested I can point you in the right direction...


----------



## 19kilosparky984

Brother Noah said:


> LU 11 if union you must have a paid up dues receipt with seal, BM to BM with seal before you can get a job but not book 4 ? They have calls left over just about every day for the solar project which does not require a state license, 438 an hour and 6-10's.440 has several calls some that require license others not they are paying in the mid to upper 40's. 639 has solar jobs that does not require license.477 calls have slowed.
> Now Brian I chatted with Ed Hill last night and he has received no request to do emergency work during Labor Day. Anyway Labor Day is only of the many benefits we have because our union fore fathers made sacrifices.


Oh i see the friends and family piss boy came out of the woodwork to post.

Brother Noah still has yet to
Post anything electrical .


----------



## 19kilosparky984

19kilosparky984 said:


> Oh i see the friends and family piss boy came out of the woodwork to post.
> 
> Brother Noah still has yet to
> Post anything electrical .


Btw Noah I also chatted with Ed hill and he told me your friends and family website needs to be renamed slackers and travelers,


----------



## Brother Noah1

brian john said:


> Yep SALTS stink, no other way to cut, low lives trying to destroy a company, I guess I am a basher.
> 
> I believe you organize the men outside the shop and if the company doesn't go union through lack of man power is a better approach.


Brian you seem extremely twisted.Almost like the best mouth piece the nonunion has.You evidently have experienced something harsh from a former SAlt cause you do not know jack crap about today's motives. You claim to own a union shop where you posted was slated to work during Labor Day.Really? I questioned if you had the okay from our international president, which is OUR protocol in a dire situation.(you know danger to life) I have worked as a Salt where my instruction was to give 8 for 8 in a journeyman like fashion.The thought was to show what WE are capable of. Now yes I was called from the hall before the job was through along with other Salts, but the contractor was offered to have us all back if he would sign an agreement just for that job. Brian you at times come across with compassion and or intellect but at times you seem like a mad third grader who will take his toys else where to play cause you did not get your way and spread untrue propaganda. This is a wonderful site for all electricians to bridge our gaps without the hostile emotions.


----------



## 19kilosparky984

Brother Noah should be banned until
He posts something other then pro union bull****


----------



## walkerj

There was a big job here in BR 995 that just laid off most everyone. 
Hospital is complete everyone laid off. 
Another job is coming up but not in town. 
This is what I hear from guy. 
A few contractors also do small jobs and stay pretty busy but they have shop guys. 

A friend of mine just recently tested out of the apprenticeship and joined at the J-man rate. 
He got laid off. 
1 month now. 

I prefer to have a full time job with equal benefits and more freedom. 
I've been off since last Friday and I have 2 years of work staring me in the face. 
When I am off, I am not drawing unemployment. 
I get a 40hr check. 

We are open shop. 

Any guy can get equal or greater pay and benefits working open shop. 
It depends on if you care about what you are doing. 

IMO, union contractors care less about their men than open shop contractors. 

Now, if we go out of business, I have to find a job. But if we continue to work hard, that shouldn't be a problem other than economy. 
I could always go test out and join 995!


----------



## slickvic277

mcclary's electrical said:


> A person in the position you describe (if you're not exhaggerating) would be absolutlety CRAZY to join the union. Yes, you'll be laid off alot, and also keep in mind that EVEN when you do work, it may not be at full scale. Jobs around here get bid at 79-85% quite often. Poor union guys pay their dues, pay for apprenticeship, ride the books for a year, and then go to work at 73%. What a frigging joke the IBEW is.


And yet, there's absolutely ZERO proof that a union electrician will be laid off any more then a non union electrician. AND through out most of the country even 75% of the unionized rate is still more then 100% of the non union rate.

I like to see just one non union pay stub, of an employee, on a non PW job for $35 per hour let alone $49



> *mcclary's electrical*In 1980 union membership was aroun 21%. Last year it was barely 11% Wonder why that is?


Because we live in a Walmart world. No one cares about quality or training anymore. People are not fleeing the IBEW in mass, no, political policies, outsourcing, and the so-called "right to work" laws are slowing growth.
The fact is, up until 2008 the IBEW was showing groth across all sectors.



> Union guys honestly think there is no better way, but yet, 11%????? and dropping???? You really keep kidding yourself saying you're the best?? Man, that takes Cahunas (or stupidity)


Yup, here's the better way. I call it the E.T. road map to stardom.
You quit your current employer because there's very few who are willing to pay a decent wage. So, since your sick of working 2600 hours a year for a measly $47K you go into business for yourself.

Then you come here and bash those who were smart enough to figure it out.



brian john said:


> Yep SALTS stink, no other way to cut, low lives trying to destroy a company, I guess I am a basher.
> 
> I believe you organize the men outside the shop and if the company doesn't go union through lack of man power is a better approach.


You don't have a clue.



This site is made up of a bunch of people who live in a fairy tale.
My eyes are WIDE OPEN.

I just got off of a NON UNION OPEN SHOP MERIT JOB.

The majority of the "electricians" had zero training or experience. They were hired for between $12-18 per hour and were miss-classified by the EC so the EC didn't have to document the hours towards the employees license.

There was close to 100 electricians on this job. These guys had NOTHING to look forward to at the end of the job. Back to the lay off and most were totally out of unemployment. There were men in there 50's working with no health care, no retirement, and nothing at the end of the line.

On top of that the EC treated these people like slaves.

12 hour days, 7 days a week mandatory. One 30 minute break to eat, use the bathroom, and make any phone calls.
You need a day off-fired.
You have a vacation planed-fired.
Your car needs to get inspection-fired.
go to the toilet more then necessary (They determine how much you get to go)-Fired.
I guess this is all a lie. If Brian John said this about the IBEW you all would be lining up for the ceremonial blowjob.

Lets talk about the physical project.
Transformers not grounded, sub panels bonded, conduits barely supported, grounds used as neutrals, under sized feeders, paid off inspectors, you get the idea.

Lets talk about the men.
These guys were on friggin' welfare. food stamp assistance, housing assistance, some of them were talking about how they took advantage of Obama's home owner affordability act. Living in there parents and friends homes because they couldn't afford to buy there own.

Everyone of them to a man, there biggest dream was to land on a rate job at least once a year. It was like hitting the lottery to them.

So tell me McClary, tell me how great the other 89% really has it.


----------



## walkerj

slickvic277 said:


> And yet, there's absolutely ZERO proof that a union electrician will be laid off any more then a non union electrician. AND through out most of the country even 75% of the unionized rate is still more then 100% of the non union rate.
> 
> I like to see just one non union pay stub, of an employee, on a non PW job for $35 per hour let alone $49
> 
> Because we live in a Walmart world. No one cares about quality or training anymore. People are not fleeing the IBEW in mass, no, political policies, outsourcing, and the so-called "right to work" laws are slowing growth.
> The fact is, up until 2008 the IBEW was showing groth across all sectors.
> 
> Yup, here's the better way. I call it the E.T. road map to stardom.
> You quit your current employer because there's very few who are willing to pay a decent wage. So, since your sick of working 2600 hours a year for a measly $47K you go into business for yourself.
> 
> Then you come here and bash those who were smart enough to figure it out.
> 
> You don't have a clue.
> 
> This site is made up of a bunch of people who live in a fairy tale.
> My eyes are WIDE OPEN.
> 
> I just got off of a NON UNION OPEN SHOP MERIT JOB.
> 
> The majority of the "electricians" had zero training or experience. They were hired for between $12-18 per hour and were miss-classified by the EC so the EC didn't have to document the hours towards the employees license.
> 
> There was close to 100 electricians on this job. These guys had NOTHING to look forward to at the end of the job. Back to the lay off and most were totally out of unemployment. There were men in there 50's working with no health care, no retirement, and nothing at the end of the line.
> 
> On top of that the EC treated these people like slaves.
> 
> 12 hour days, 7 days a week mandatory. One 30 minute break to eat, use the bathroom, and make any phone calls.
> You need a day off-fired.
> You have a vacation planed-fired.
> Your car needs to get inspection-fired.
> go to the toilet more then necessary (They determine how much you get to go)-Fired.
> I guess this is all a lie. If Brian John said this about the IBEW you all would be lining up for the ceremonial blowjob.
> 
> Lets talk about the physical project.
> Transformers not grounded, sub panels bonded, conduits barely supported, grounds used as neutrals, under sized feeders, paid off inspectors, you get the idea.
> 
> Lets talk about the men.
> These guys were on friggin' welfare. food stamp assistance, housing assistance, some of them were talking about how they took advantage of Obama's home owner affordability act. Living in there parents and friends homes because they couldn't afford to buy there own.
> 
> Everyone of them to a man, there biggest dream was to land on a rate job at least once a year. It was like hitting the lottery to them.
> 
> So tell me McClary, tell me how great the other 89% really has it.


Dude those guys are sloths and lazy. 
Maybe not at work, but in the real world. 
They should be more than capable of finding a better job. 

They are also more than capable of not working at that job if they have a life outside of work. 

Nobody held a gun to their heads and said 'go work for a ****ty contractor or I will blow your brains out!'


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

slickvic277 said:


> And yet, there's absolutely ZERO proof that a union electrician will be laid off any more then a non union electrician. AND through out most of the country even 75% of the unionized rate is still more then 100% of the non union rate.
> 
> I like to see just one non union pay stub, of an employee, on a non PW job for $35 per hour let alone $49
> 
> 
> 
> Because we live in a Walmart world. No one cares about quality or training anymore. People are not fleeing the IBEW in mass, no, political policies, outsourcing, and the so-called "right to work" laws are slowing growth.
> The fact is, up until 2008 the IBEW was showing groth across all sectors.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, here's the better way. I call it the E.T. road map to stardom.
> You quit your current employer because there's very few who are willing to pay a decent wage. So, since your sick of working 2600 hours a year for a measly $47K you go into business for yourself.
> 
> Then you come here and bash those who were smart enough to figure it out.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> This site is made up of a bunch of people who live in a fairy tale.
> My eyes are WIDE OPEN.
> 
> I just got off of a NON UNION OPEN SHOP MERIT JOB.
> 
> The majority of the "electricians" had zero training or experience. They were hired for between $12-18 per hour and were miss-classified by the EC so the EC didn't have to document the hours towards the employees license.
> 
> There was close to 100 electricians on this job. These guys had NOTHING to look forward to at the end of the job. Back to the lay off and most were totally out of unemployment. There were men in there 50's working with no health care, no retirement, and nothing at the end of the line.
> 
> On top of that the EC treated these people like slaves.
> 
> 12 hour days, 7 days a week mandatory. One 30 minute break to eat, use the bathroom, and make any phone calls.
> You need a day off-fired.
> You have a vacation planed-fired.
> Your car needs to get inspection-fired.
> go to the toilet more then necessary (They determine how much you get to go)-Fired.
> I guess this is all a lie. If Brian John said this about the IBEW you all would be lining up for the ceremonial blowjob.
> 
> Lets talk about the physical project.
> Transformers not grounded, sub panels bonded, conduits barely supported, grounds used as neutrals, under sized feeders, paid off inspectors, you get the idea.
> 
> Lets talk about the men.
> These guys were on friggin' welfare. food stamp assistance, housing assistance, some of them were talking about how they took advantage of Obama's home owner affordability act. Living in there parents and friends homes because they couldn't afford to buy there own.
> 
> Everyone of them to a man, there biggest dream was to land on a rate job at least once a year. It was like hitting the lottery to them.
> 
> So tell me McClary, tell me how great the other 89% really has it.


 
Well, if the ENTIRE other 89% was as bad as you describe, then I'd probably jump fence and be right there with you. But the fact is, it's not. I have never seen a paid inspector, never seen people come off welfare to work as electricians, and never seen 12 hr days with no breaks. If this were all true everywhere, people would be flocking to the union for help. But the fact that they ARE NOT, tells me your story is not only exhaggerated, but not even close to what happens with the other 89%. Don't get me wrong Vic, I HATE CORPORATE AMERICA, and I can only IMAGINE what would happen to the average worker if there were no unions. But there's no way in hell all the union leaders making 3 and 4 hundred thousand dollars a year while nobody is working is fair. There's no way in hell it's fair to pay union dues, and then the union take a job at 73% There's no way in hell it's fair to pay union dues, the union says it's broke, yet they're building a brand new headquarters. Again, if the other 89% was as bad as you describe, I'd be there with you. But it's not.


----------



## slickvic277

> *walkerj*;]Dude those guys are sloths and lazy.
> Maybe not at work, but in the real world.


:blink:
Really???? All I saw were a bunch of poor bastards trying to make ends meat.



> They should be more than capable of finding a better job.


More then capable???? Do you live in a box? Do you really understand whats going on in our country today? 

Im wondering, where all these "good jobs" are hiding at. Are you hiring? 



> They are also more than capable of not working at that job if they have a life outside of work.


What exactly does this mean?



> Nobody held a gun to their heads and said 'go work for a ****ty contractor or I will blow your brains out!'


Thats a typical answer I expected to get on this site. I'm surprised that Brian John didn't beat you to it.
I think there's a whole bunch of "good ole' boys" who would disagree with you.

After all, the country is just booming with awesome job possibilities. Look at all the contractors on this site who are hiring by the trucks full. :laughing:


----------



## Shockdoc

My former JW from the 20 years ago is now a union foreman. He's good and they keep him on steady. it's not the IBEW , it's the shop. If the shop see's you as a money maker you will stay working. Same applies in the non union field.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

stuiec said:


> I beleive that, given the choice, more would be pro union if the (often unfair) stigma / stereotype of laziness were not propogated by those of us who did not know any better.


 

Nice try, but I've been in the union first hand. THEY DO protect lazy, slow, fat, rebellious workers. THEY DO hold back good workers who are worth more and cannot get a raise due to seniority rules. THEY DO make good workers not care, and slow down to match the lazy one, who could blame 'em? They're not getting paid more for being better (as you would open shop) So, your sentence about not knowing better doesn't apply to me, because I've worked both sides. I saw FAR MORE people barely skating by, with both attendance and performance, than peolpe that thrived at work. FAR MORE. The union protects these slobs so they can do what they want.


----------



## Chris1971

What a great thread for Labor Day.:no::no:


----------



## brian john

stuiec said:


> I am a non-union apprentice. I have a strong work ethic and do my best at work, and consider my work and the company I work for with a certain sense of pride. That being said, It seems to me that in North America, we are slowly but surely working ourselves to the bone. The same work ethic that was hammered into me, along with the disdain for those that did not work as hard, is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. When compared to (some) other developed nations, our mandated holidays and compensation are meager to say the least. I beleive that, given the choice, more would be pro union if the (often unfair) stigma / stereotype of laziness were not propogated by those of us who did not know any better.


Because the French and Greek economy is doing so well.


----------



## Shockdoc

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nice try, but I've been in the union first hand. THEY DO protect lazy, slow, fat, rebellious workers. THEY DO hold back good workers who are worth more and cannot get a raise due to seniority rules. THEY DO make good workers not care, and slow down to match the lazy one, who could blame 'em? They're not getting paid more for being better (as you would open shop) So, your sentence about not knowing better doesn't apply to me, because I've worked both sides. I saw FAR MORE people barely skating by, with both attendance and performance, than peolpe that thrived at work. FAR MORE. The union protects these slobs so they can do what they want.


You just completely described the civil and police unions of New York.


----------



## walkerj

slickvic277 said:


> :blink:
> Really???? All I saw were a bunch of poor bastards trying to make ends meat.
> 
> More then capable???? Do you live in a box? Do you really understand whats going on in our country today?
> 
> Im wondering, where all these "good jobs" are hiding at. Are you hiring?
> 
> What exactly does this mean?
> 
> Thats a typical answer I expected to get on this site. I'm surprised that Brian John didn't beat you to it.
> I think there's a whole bunch of "good ole' boys" who would disagree with you.
> 
> After all, the country is just booming with awesome job possibilities. Look at all the contractors on this site who are hiring by the trucks full. :laughing:


We are hiring. 
Louisiana has a strong economy. 
Port of Baton Rouge. 

Those guys are poor bastards. 
Why don't they join the union and see the light.?
Did your salting work for any men or the contractor?

You know damn good and well the vast majority of actual contractors on this site are one man shows. 

There are plenty of electricians in south la that make 35 on the check whatever TF that means. 

I make it just fine with no help from anyone but myself and this may sound f'ed up but I don't care what anyone else makes and if they are struggling blah blah blah. 

They have had the same opportunity we all have had. 
If you weren't enlisted would you just sit there with your thumb up your ass on govt assistance?

Come salt on my job and you will be side by side with the laborers pushing a broom and pumping out water.


----------



## brian john

I have said this before, I have seen hard working men, and some not so hard working men in both work forums, few if any lazy workers make it very far. 

Work ethics are not necessarily in a worker because they are union or open/merit/non-union, I believe it is in the person.


----------



## slickvic277

*mcclary's electrical*;


> Well, if the ENTIRE other 89% was as bad as you describe, then I'd probably jump fence and be right there with you. But the fact is, it's not.


So, how long have you been with your current employer?



> I have never seen a paid inspector, never seen people come off welfare to work as electricians, and never seen 12 hr days with no breaks. If this were all true


I forgot about the ET rule. If you didn't see it, then it never happens.
I didn't say no breaks, i said one 30 minute break in a 12 hour day. Even I have never seen that before.



> everywhere, people would be flocking to the union for help. But the fact that they ARE NOT,


Like I said, before 2008 IBEW membership was growing from previous years.




> tells me your story is not only exhaggerated, but not even close to what happens with the other 89%.


There's no need to exaggerate. Perhaps when it's all said and done I'll post all the labor board depositions. From everyone involved. These guys were drinking energy drinks by the 6 packs to keep themselves going.

You know what the big talk on the job was? How much weight did you lose?




> Don't get me wrong Vic, I HATE CORPORATE AMERICA, and I can only IMAGINE what would happen to the average worker if there were no unions. But there's no way in hell all the union leaders making 3 and 4 hundred thousand dollars a year while nobody is working is fair.


Who said nobody is working? My local has about 500ish out of work. There's still around 3200ish working. 

And you bring up the word fair. When Mutt Romney was absorbing companies and laying people off by the 1000's, everyone said he was a good business man making tough decisions. Welcome to the global economy.
When unions lose there bargaining rights and members are forced out of work, all of a sudden there elected leaders are over paid??????



> There's no way in hell it's fair to pay union dues, and then the union take a job at 73% There's no way in hell it's fair to pay union dues, the union says it's broke, yet they're building a brand new headquarters. Again, if the other 89% was as bad as you describe, I'd be there with you. But it's not.


Nope it's all a lie. :whistling2:

This is the major problem with the people on this site. You guys make things up to suit your opinions. No where in any of my posts did I say that the IBEW was perfect or infallible. My beef is with people who make things up out of thin air just to suit there own agenda. I did not say that what i just experienced was the norm. I came from non union before I was union and I never experienced anything like this before. My point is, this is the direction the trade is going and it seems to be getting worse.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> *mcclary's electrical*;
> 
> 
> This is the major problem with the people on this site. You guys make things up to suit your opinions. .


Yeah somebody said you were a good guy...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

walkerj said:


> We are hiring.
> Louisiana has a strong economy.
> Port of Baton Rouge.
> 
> Those guys are poor bastards.
> Why don't they join the union and see the light.?
> Did your salting work for any men or the contractor?
> 
> You know damn good and well the vast majority of actual contractors on this site are one man shows.
> 
> There are plenty of electricians in south la that make 35 on the check whatever TF that means.
> 
> I make it just fine with no help from anyone but myself and this may sound f'ed up but I don't care what anyone else makes and if they are struggling blah blah blah.
> 
> They have had the same opportunity we all have had.
> If you weren't enlisted would you just sit there with your thumb up your ass on govt assistance?
> 
> Come salt on my job and you will be side by side with the laborers pushing a broom and pumping out water.



Enlisted???????????
No thanks. I just got a taste of how the south operates. I'll pass on seconds.
I didn't know that an unemployment rate of 7.5% is considered strong.
Good for you.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Yeah somebody said you were a good guy...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Sorry BJ.
I live in reality. no need to sit on here ALL DAY LONG and talk about how lazy everyone else is. Oh, I really don't give a flying **** what anyone thinks about me. Especially you, or anyone from an internet forum for that matter.


----------



## Shockdoc

News flash-Disturbed Union employee opens fire on forum members


----------



## stuiec

brian john said:


> Because the French and Greek economy is doing so well.


Are you joking, or are you just that naive? Do you really think that I was referring to these two countries? My point is that just because things can be done quickly does not necessarily mean that it is better to do so. Life, as I have recently read you have realised, can pass by rather quickly. Where does quality of life fit into the equation. This is my point.


----------



## BBQ

slickvic277 said:


> Oh, I really don't give a flying **** what anyone thinks about me. Especially you, or anyone from an internet forum for that matter.


If that was true you would not be posting ...........


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

slickvic277 said:


> And you bring up the word fair. When Mutt Romney was absorbing companies and laying people off by the 1000's, everyone said he was a good business man making tough decisions. Welcome to the global economy.


 

Good point VIc, but Romney wasn't collecting dues from these workers supposedly with their best interest in mind. He was making business decisions solely based on what was best for him. At least he wasn't screwing the people paying dues.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> Sorry BJ.
> I live in reality. no need to sit on here ALL DAY LONG and talk about how lazy everyone else is. Oh, I really don't give a flying **** what anyone thinks about me. Especially you, or anyone from an internet forum for that matter.


As long as you are working and happy or content, and if you are content with your lot in life what does work really mean in the end? Take the path you want be it union, open shop or retired . I enjoy the banter between bouts of working around the house.


----------



## stuiec

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nice try, but I've been in the union first hand. THEY DO protect lazy, slow, fat, rebellious workers. THEY DO hold back good workers who are worth more and cannot get a raise due to seniority rules. THEY DO make good workers not care, and slow down to match the lazy one, who could blame 'em? They're not getting paid more for being better (as you would open shop) So, your sentence about not knowing better doesn't apply to me, because I've worked both sides. I saw FAR MORE people barely skating by, with both attendance and performance, than peolpe that thrived at work. FAR MORE. The union protects these slobs so they can do what they want.


So you did not like being employed, and could see that everything could be done way better, and that it would be easy to fix. Seems I've heard this before. I'm not saying that unions are perfect. I'm saying that the race to the bottom is being run in the non-union sector, and it is being driven by greed. JMO.


----------



## Aegis

These are all things I saw.

My company got salted and ended up going union.

My first job in the union I saw guys do a straight run of 1/2 EMT on concrete 50ft long (no wires), took them all day.

Saw guys that couldn't run pipe or do other simple tasks and they said they've been in the trade for 15+ years. 

For lunch there wasn't a set of chairs and table so they went around the whole building complaining about not having a table for lunch, none of them had lunch until they had one. They spent 45mins before they got a table and some chairs. I sat in my car and ate while I watched this all happen.

The owner of the company showed up one day with his tools and was going to help out in the main electrical room. He got yelled at by the union rep because he's stealing the workers work.

An apprentice went into the trailer 5 mins earlier to start getting ready and the rest of the guys got mad at him for stealing work and made him sit in the corner for an hour.

After being called to 4 different companies I got sent to the back of the list. I never got to meet any of the owners/regulars from any of the companies, how was I supposed to build up a rapport so that any of them would keep me? I asked the hall how long it would it be until I got work they said something like 6-8 months. I left the union and have had constant work ever since.


----------



## Acadian9

Aegis said:


> These are all things I saw.
> 
> My company got salted and ended up going union.
> 
> My first job in the union I saw guys do a straight run of 1/2 EMT on concrete 50ft long (no wires), took them all day.
> 
> Saw guys that couldn't run pipe or do other simple tasks and they said they've been in the trade for 15+ years.
> 
> For lunch there wasn't a set of chairs and table so they went around the whole building complaining about not having a table for lunch, none of them had lunch until they had one. They spent 45mins before they got a table and some chairs. I sat in my car and ate while I watched this all happen.
> 
> The owner of the company showed up one day with his tools and was going to help out in the main electrical room. He got yelled at by the union rep because he's stealing the workers work.
> 
> An apprentice went into the trailer 5 mins earlier to start getting ready and the rest of the guys got mad at him for stealing work and made him sit in the corner for an hour.
> 
> After being called to 4 different companies I got sent to the back of the list. I never got to meet any of the owners/regulars from any of the companies, how was I supposed to build up a rapport so that any of them would keep me? I asked the hall how long it would it be until I got work they said something like 6-8 months. I left the union and have had constant work ever since.


I've been with the union for 5 years, and I've never seen any of this. Not all union shops are like that.


----------



## brian john

stuiec said:


> Are you joking, or are you just that naive? Do you really think that I was referring to these two countries? My point is that just because things can be done quickly does not necessarily mean that it is better to do so. Life, as I have recently read you have realised, can pass by rather quickly. Where does quality of life fit into the equation. This is my point.


So what are the options, you go on the dole? You run your country in the ground with takers while makers become fewer and fewer, or you find something you enjoy doing and go for it.


----------



## brian john

Acadian9 said:


> I've been with the union for 5 years, and I've never seen any of this. Not all union shops are like that.



Shops can be like people all different. Some excellent, some OK and some pure hell.


----------



## greenman

That is why we drop the ibew and whent on own. run by members ex 1788


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nice try, but I've been in the union first hand. THEY DO protect lazy, slow, fat, rebellious workers. THEY DO hold back good workers who are worth more and cannot get a raise due to seniority rules. THEY DO make good workers not care, and slow down to match the lazy one, who could blame 'em? They're not getting paid more for being better (as you would open shop) So, your sentence about not knowing better doesn't apply to me, because I've worked both sides. I saw FAR MORE people barely skating by, with both attendance and performance, than peolpe that thrived at work. FAR MORE. The union protects these slobs so they can do what they want.


Seriously?

Do we want to play the same record over and over again?

Okay...I like to dance.

Non union is the way to go. When you get fired for taking a 4 minute piss break then you lose your insurance. 

If you are not related to the boss you don't get any raises and you have to 'take time off' when things are slow. Don't you dare collect unemployment when you do 'take time off' since that will increase the contractors contributions. 

If a non union contractor fires you, you don't get unemployment.

If one of your coworkers decides to stab you in the back with the foreman, guess what, you just lost your job.

How many pages of fairy tales do you want to exchange mcclary?

and what I don't understand is what is your real issue with unions? it makes no sense that you would have any problems with unions. all unions do is benefit everyone working for wages. So tell us, please, what is your real issue with unions?

No fairy tales. No 'I know a guy' stories about working under scale. No tall tales about lazy slow fat rebellious workers. No BS about union and non union wages being the same.

Just the cold hard reasons why you dislike unions.


----------



## Zog

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nice try, but I've been in the union first hand. THEY DO protect lazy, slow, fat, rebellious workers. THEY DO hold back good workers who are worth more and cannot get a raise due to seniority rules. THEY DO make good workers not care, and slow down to match the lazy one, who could blame 'em? They're not getting paid more for being better (as you would open shop) So, your sentence about not knowing better doesn't apply to me, because I've worked both sides. I saw FAR MORE people barely skating by, with both attendance and performance, than peolpe that thrived at work. FAR MORE. The union protects these slobs so they can do what they want.


Amen, I have been on both sides as well and have never seen a non union guy go to his boss and ask for a lay off so he could take a nice family vacation. Saw that often in my IBEW days. 

I never benifited one bit from a penny of the dues I paid.


----------



## greenman

greenman said:


> That is why we drop the ibew and whent on own. run by members ex 1788


 we started our own Union


----------



## Zog

eejack said:


> Non union is the way to go. When you get fired for taking a 4 minute piss break then you lose your insurance.


 No, you get fired for being a ****bag, unlike in the union where that is acceptable. 



eejack said:


> If you are not related to the boss you don't get any raises and you have to 'take time off' when things are slow.


 Hmmm, all my guys get raises every year, minimum of 10% the last few years but Obamacare might make that hard next year. 



eejack said:


> If a non union contractor fires you, you don't get unemployment.


 Um, wrong. 



eejack said:


> and what I don't understand is what is your real issue with unions? it makes no sense that you would have any problems with unions. all unions do is benefit everyone working for wages. So tell us, please, what is your real issue with unions?


 unions are dinasours, simple as that, we don't need them anymore and they are destroying some of the best companies in our nation. Look at GM, prime example. Auto companies are thriving in the non union south, guiding a robot to put a door on a car (With a GED prereq) is not a $60k/yr job.


----------



## eejack

Aegis said:


> These are all things I saw.


Some of the things I saw...

The tallest building in NJ being built on time and on budget with union labor.

Two stadiums being built at the same time, on time and on budget, with union labor.

The destroyed path stations under the WTC rebuilt on time, on budget - by union labor.

You want to tell me stories about a couple of individuals and I want to share stories about major events.

Every shop, every crew, every job, every office and every store, every workplace has its weak, has its useless, has its crappy workers. The bagel store down the street, the idiot teller in the bank, the doofus that screwed up your oil change at the jiffy mart.

Sometimes that crappy worker is you, sometimes it is the other guy.

But somehow, since it is a UNION worker doing a crappy job it is an indictment on all unions workers. 

Sheesh.


----------



## eejack

Zog said:


> No, you get fired for being a ****bag, unlike in the union where that is acceptable.


So a four minute piss break is being a ****bag. Good to know.



Zog said:


> Um, wrong.


unemployment benefits are only available to those who were laid off. fired means no or delayed benefits.

Unions are killing good businesses?. Crappy management, greedy ceos, wall street and investment bankers are killing good businesses. the dire need for short term gains to appease stock holders instead of long term investment, these are the things that are killing good businesses.

If workers don't make a good wage, they cannot spend money on the goods they make. Henry Ford knew that and he paid his workers fairly.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

eejack said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Do we want to play the same record over and over again?
> 
> Okay...I like to dance.
> 
> Non union is the way to go. When you get fired for taking a 4 minute piss break then you lose your insurance.
> 
> If you are not related to the boss you don't get any raises and you have to 'take time off' when things are slow. Don't you dare collect unemployment when you do 'take time off' since that will increase the contractors contributions.
> 
> If a non union contractor fires you, you don't get unemployment.
> 
> If one of your coworkers decides to stab you in the back with the foreman, guess what, you just lost your job.
> 
> How many pages of fairy tales do you want to exchange mcclary?
> 
> and what I don't understand is what is your real issue with unions? it makes no sense that you would have any problems with unions. all unions do is benefit everyone working for wages. So tell us, please, what is your real issue with unions?
> 
> No fairy tales. No 'I know a guy' stories about working under scale. No tall tales about lazy slow fat rebellious workers. No BS about union and non union wages being the same.
> 
> Just the cold hard reasons why you dislike unions.


 
Fair enough. Unions had their place in the 30's through the 60's. But after that they got greedy. A broom pusher at Phillipp Morris is not worth $26/ hr. Sorry, that's just pure greed. But to be 100% honest, that doesn't bother me NOT ONE TINY BIT. If they can get the money, more power to them. What I HATE about unions, is they protect lazy, slow, trifling, rebellious, truant, tardy, workers whereas an open shop would have fired them long ago. On top of that, the good workers don't get raise because they are supposedly "equal" to all the other men. That's complete bullchit. Nobody's equal. If one worker averages 400 feet of pipe per day and another averages 200, one should be paid more or the other should be fired. Palin and simple. But not with the union. So there's my main gripe. The union protects workers that don't deserve the position they have, and the union also holds back more valuable workers. As I said before, I'm not making this up, I've worked both


----------



## eejack

mcclary's electrical said:


> What I HATE about unions, is they protect lazy, slow, trifling, rebellious, truant, tardy, workers whereas an open shop would have fired them long ago. On top of that, the good workers don't get raise because they are supposedly "equal" to all the other men. That's complete bullchit. Nobody's equal. If one worker averages 400 feet of pipe per day and another averages 200, one should be paid more or the other should be fired. Palin and simple. But not with the union. So there's my main gripe. The union protects workers that don't deserve the position they have, and the union also holds back more valuable workers. As I said before, I'm not making this up, I've worked both


So, you should have no problem then with the ibew. Brian John can attest to this since he runs his shop this way....

Of course these are broad generalizations....

On a typical job ( union or non union ) there will always be better and worse workers. On a non union job, your contention is that the better workers will be rewarded for their better work through better pay. There is a certain straightforward relationship between production and wages.

On a union job the reward is greater longevity. Better workers will be laid off last, and typically have the better tasks during the job. The 'fat lazy protected worker who can run only 10 feet of conduit a day' tends to end up in the wiring pulling gang and tends to get laid off first. Your truly good workers end up working year round for shops.

In both cases there are exceptions - we all know them and could fill a large tome with stories of the lazy cousin who knew the bosses dark secret...

But in both cases, that reward is there.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> So, you should have no problem then with the ibew. Brian John can attest to this since he runs his shop this way....
> 
> Of course these are broad generalizations....
> 
> On a typical job ( union or non union ) there will always be better and worse workers. On a non union job, your contention is that the better workers will be rewarded for their better work through better pay. There is a certain straightforward relationship between production and wages.


Or get over scale, a truck, better bennies, bonuses and as permanent a job as possible in this trade.



> On a union job the reward is greater longevity. Better workers will be laid off last, and typically have the better tasks during the job. The 'fat lazy protected worker who can run only 10 feet of conduit a day' tends to end up in the wiring pulling gang and tends to get laid off first. Your truly good workers end up working year round for shops.


I THINK (?) some of this comes from reports from power houses. Some of the stories fleas told me in the past about condoned slacking, by everyone involved from the GCs to the apprentices, would curl you hair.



> In both cases there are exceptions - we all know them and could fill a large tome with stories of the lazy cousin who knew the bosses dark secret...
> 
> But in both cases, that reward is there.


You have to work a minimum of 40 hours a week (as a general rule) why not get the most you can for that 40?


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> I THINK (?) some of this comes from reports from power houses. Some of the stories fleas told me in the past about condoned slacking, by everyone involved from the GCs to the apprentices, would curl you hair.


Part of the problem the IBEW faces is the public face the FLE has put on it. I can tell scary stories of their behavior that I shall not else it paints the whole of the IBEW with the same twisted brush. 

All I can say is, verify whatever anyone tells you, but if is coming from a Fun Loving Electrician, don't bet anything you love on it being true.


----------



## Brother Noah1

brian john said:


> Or get over scale, a truck, better bennies, bonuses and as permanent a job as possible in this trade.
> 
> 
> 
> I THINK (?) some of this comes from reports from power houses. Some of the stories fleas told me in the past about condoned slacking, by everyone involved from the GCs to the apprentices, would curl you hair.
> 
> 
> 
> Now Brian some IBEW member may have told you stories of the power house life but you spoke another lie laying the blame on a flea!


----------



## Chris1971

Hope everyone union or nonunion enjoyed the labor day weekend.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

I know an apprentice whose first day on the job involved getting tires put on the bosses truck, getting it inspected, and a supply house run. Is that ok that they (undoubtedly) billed the company they were working for to get that done?


----------



## 347sparky

mcclary's electrical said:


> I know an apprentice whose first day on the job involved getting tires put on the bosses truck, getting it inspected, and a supply house run. Is that ok that they (undoubtedly) billed the company they were working for to get that done?


 
Was that a bid job or T&M? :whistling2: JK


There was a foreman here 20 years ago fired for having his apprentice change his flat tire on the job.

So were you in the union as an apprentice or journeyman?


----------



## sparky970

mcclary's electrical said:


> The union protects workers that don't deserve the position they have, and the union also holds back more valuable workers.


If I get a guy from the hall who's lazy or can't hold his own, I have no trouble sending him back to the hall. How is he being protected? My valuable guys get more responsibility, foreman jobs, better pay, phone, truck, and opportunities.


----------



## brian john

Brother Noah said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or get over scale, a truck, better bennies, bonuses and as permanent a job as possible in this trade.
> 
> 
> 
> I THINK (?) some of this comes from reports from power houses. Some of the stories fleas told me in the past about condoned slacking, by everyone involved from the GCs to the apprentices, would curl you hair.
> 
> 
> 
> Now Brian some IBEW member may have told you stories of the power house life but you spoke another lie laying the blame on a flea!
> 
> 
> 
> OK a traveler that was a member of the IBEW, commonly referred to as FLEAS (by the travelers and other IBEW members on the jobs where I encountered them), whether they were or were not was not in my job description to check
Click to expand...


----------



## jordan_paul

greenman said:


> That is why we drop the ibew and whent on own. run by members ex 1788


Oh man, I hate to say this word but these are the worst kind of Rats. They have taken away alot of good jobs these past few years. I know a few locals are pissed off at these idiots.


----------



## stuiec

jordan_paul said:


> Oh man, I hate to say this word but these are the worst kind of Rats. They have taken away alot of good jobs these past few years. I know a few locals are pissed off at these idiots.


They are not here in Alberta yet. Why are they idiots?


----------



## Cl906um

:jester::laughing:Not getting the use of this forum. Half the stuff I post gets removed. Yet all of the stuff this B j guy posts remains. Are you even an electrician? Seems to me you have a lot of computer time for a business owner. It's like going into home depot and this guy tells you he is a master plumber. I think he tells it loud for everyone to hear. Yet he works there.


----------



## Cl906um

Almost 18000 posts.really dude. You called me a hypocrite before?


----------



## brian john

cl219um said:


> Almost 18000 posts.really dude. You called me a hypocrite before?


What does 18,000 post have to do with what you said?

And to be honest I can't even remember what you posted to place you in the realm of being a hypocrite. I think you said to treat people fair and then called open shop men rats???????

NO ONE HAS REMOVED YOUR POST (unless they are against forum policies), it most likely is your lack of computer skills.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Cl906um

Then why don't my replies come up on forum search? Cause my wifes making me use this friggin I pad.


----------



## wendon

cl219um said:


> :jester::laughing:Not getting the use of this forum. Half the stuff I post gets removed. Yet all of the stuff this B j guy posts remains. Are you even an electrician? Seems to me you have a lot of computer time for a business owner. It's like going into home depot and this guy tells you he is a master plumber. I think he tells it loud for everyone to hear. Yet he works there.


WOW!!! And you've been a member since JULY !!!! Maybe they thought you were posting on the wrong forum!!!

http://www.electriciantalk.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage


----------



## Cl906um

Nice recollection. I was a nonunion electrician for 13 years.whats your history?


----------



## Cl906um

Ibew for 8 after that.waiting...


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

again with the names?


----------



## Cl906um

Ganging up won't help. What is your history said the man asking politely. Names only hurt if you are twelve. Not an uctually hardened construction worker.


----------



## brian john

cl219um said:


> Then why don't my replies come up on forum search? Come on my wifes making me use this friggin I pad.


No idea but I will ask the other moderators.


----------



## Cl906um

Corner of Newark and...


----------



## Cl906um

Get off the subject of wives. I just got off yours...


----------



## Cl906um

The moderators Brian? You mean you know them personally. You must be special.:thumbup:


----------



## wendon

cl219um said:


> Get off the subject of wives. I just got off yours...


Did I get this correct that you belong to the Ibew?


----------



## Cl906um

Or is it moderator like the title under your name?


----------



## brian john

I worked commercial construction, apartments and condos for 2.5 years, got my first license.
Worked for a small firm for 4 years doing residential service, and construction of hospitals, schools and churches.
Got my first masters at 4 years
Joined the IBEW and did construction for 1.5 years
Did commercial service and started doing electrical testing.
Was instrumental is starting infra red testing in the early stages of IR cameras(1980-82) for a testing firm. 
Became a NETA certified Electrical Tester
Started my firm, doing electrical testing,infrared and resolving power issues, grounding issues, and doing electrical work many firms shy away from.
20-30% of my customers are electrical contractors and electrical manufactures. We service generators, DC power systems and AC power systems.
Certified thermographer, though I seldom do IR anymore.
At present I have 38 men working for me with 12 service trucks.

In the last 6 years I have hired two assistants to take some of the work load off me, I was working 60-80 hours a week now I do 40-60 hours and I do pretty much what I enjoy in the trade. Resolving problems.

Right or wrong I have my beliefs, I never call any workers derogatory names, I prefer the truth about the union and open shop workers. Much of what is posted is not so much BS but a misunderstanding between two groups of workers that should get along for the betterment of the trade and all electricians.

AND I hate it when union members call others RATS. I despise that term.


----------



## Cl906um

Well... Get upset when my posts get deleted like my opinions don't count. I have a voice. This is America. Isn't it? You are questioning my brotherhood now? What about freedom of speech. I thought the union stood for this as well.


----------



## brian john

I am a moderator I have met one moderator and only know the others Mods from here.


----------



## brian john

cl219um said:


> Well... Get upset when my posts get deleted like my opinions don't count. I have a voice. This is America. Isn't it? You are questioning my brotherhood now? What about freedom of speech. I thought the union stood for this as well.


If you post were deleted I never saw it and I would see deleted post. Are you sure you posted here and not in the ANTI-ET site? There is one seriously.


----------



## wendon

cl219um said:


> What about freedom of speech. I thought the union stood for this as well.


 You're not serious are you???


----------



## brian john

cl219um said:


> Well... Get upset when my posts get deleted like my opinions don't count. I have a voice. This is America. Isn't it? You are questioning my brotherhood now? What about freedom of speech. I thought the union stood for this as well.



I never questioned your brotherhood.


----------



## Cl906um

I have been crapped on every Thursday when the nonunion contracting eagle pooped. Not a great gig I admit, but 7 or so years ago, I decided to go union when I got tired of broken promises from contractors 401k s flopped and prevailing wages were only for the contractor. Worked for some of the biggest and baddest of the Midwest. And now I am neither ashamed nor afraid of my opinions toward them. I mAy be bit rough on the edges, but I come here to vent, to help, and voice my opinion on whatever. I am proud and have prevailed I am not sure that I will act like a scared little woodland creature though.


----------



## brian john

cl219um said:


> I have been crapped on every Thursday when the nonunion contracting eagle pooped. Not a great gig I admit, but 7 or so years ago, I decided to go union when I got tired of broken promises from contractors 401k s flopped and prevailing wages were only for the contractor. Worked for some of the biggest and baddest of the Midwest. And now I am neither ashamed nor afraid of my opinions toward them. I mAy be bit rough on the edges, but I come here to vent, to help, and voice my opinion on whatever. I am proud and have prevailed I am not sure that I will act like a scared little woodland creature though.


And you should be proud of your work. I am checking on the possibility of deleted post.


----------



## Cl906um

I got used of the term when I crossed picket lines for the first time when I was fresh out of high school working 400 miles from home. My father is a teamster. This kind of making me the black sheep. I didnt know any better back then, but it's pretty clear now. Not one of my prouder moments. Hell the veteran non union guys call each other this. I don't feel the same. Sorry.


----------



## MollyHatchet29

I learned it from a guy who used to be vice president of the local here. He's one of the most anti union guys I've ever met, and he's still a part of it. Odd...


----------



## brian john

MollyHatchet29 said:


> I learned it from a guy who used to be vice president of the local here. He's one of the most anti union guys I've ever met, and he's still a part of it. Odd...


I worked with a guy that hated anyone that did not go through the apprenticeship, called us scabs, rats and a lot of other names. Would not take orders from any men that came in the back door.

He started his own firm a few years later OPEN SHOP. Good enough for him when he was an employee, but to heck with his employees.


----------



## Speedy Petey

cl219um said:


> Well... Get upset when my posts get deleted like my opinions don't count. I have a voice. This is America. Isn't it? You are questioning my brotherhood now? What about freedom of speech. I thought the union stood for this as well.


This is a private forum, NOT "America". Freedom of speech only goes as far as the owner of the site allows. But he allows a lot. 

I also see no evidence of anything of yours being removed. It is not uncommon to think you posted something only to find it did not go through. This is especially true on a phone or tablet.

You need to take a step back and chill a bit before throwing all these accusations around.


----------



## eejack

brian john said:


> I worked with a guy that hated anyone that did not go through the apprenticeship, called us scabs, rats and a lot of other names. Would not take orders from any men that came in the back door.


Most of the folks I have run into who throw those terms around and act like that are one small step from ending up there themselves. I believe it is all part of 'protesting too much'.

Like any other group of persons, you have a small percentage of truly exceptional, a vast majority of decent but ordinary folks and a small percentage of loud mouthed self loathing morons.

We notice that last group because they make themselves so blessedly obvious and it is only natural to paint the whole group based on that rather twisted minority. Sometimes it seems like those folks are aberrant just to attract attention...


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> Most of the folks I have run into who throw those terms around and act like that are one small step from ending up there themselves. I believe it is all part of 'protesting too much'.
> 
> Like any other group of persons, you have a small percentage of truly exceptional, a vast majority of decent but ordinary folks and a small percentage of loud mouthed self loathing morons.
> 
> We notice that last group because they make themselves so blessedly obvious and it is only natural to paint the whole group based on that rather twisted minority. Sometimes it seems like those folks are aberrant just to attract attention...


 
My point was the fact that he operated non-union shop. If you are pro union as a worker NO MATTER how you act or what you say, and you enjoyed the benefits of being union why would you open a merit shop?

AND BELIEVE ME I THOUGHT ABOUT IT.....But that would make me a HYPROCRITE, I'd have more money in my pocket BUT STILL......


----------



## Cl906um

I am sorry if I offended you bros last night. Sometimes I would rather vent to a computer cause fellow sparkys know what I am talking about rather than my wife simply nodding in agreement. The company I went with when I first started also learned the trade union, then two of them pooled$ together and hired young kids trying to break into the trade like me. I still want to call the NLRB on them for screwing me out of so much. Ie they had me working on a prevailing wage job for two yrs. they told me they would put the extra wages earned into 401k plan as a company match. Well, after all of six years I couldn't stand my boss any longer I changed companies. I felt they were trying to get away from paying their end when they told me I had to be vested for seven years. These j offs know all the tricks.needless to say, I am happier than ever with my current companies that I have worked through in local union. United we bargain...


----------



## bobelectric

Local # 5 here in the Burg is still backing osammy.


----------



## Cl906um

Brian, about your post on fle in our trade. I have worked partners with some of them, and they are not the problem. Some of the best workers out there are part of this group. Only when the contractor violates the system do they start working differently. Some of the more knowledgable guys of the trade. I worked some powerhouses and the only problem they had with me is that I didn't bump thumbs? Just some guys keeping it square with a twist. I would say guys relying on their ticket instead of a contractor. I would worry more about guys using the contract only when it suits them for self gain.


----------



## Brother Noah1

brian john said:


> I worked commercial construction, apartments and condos for 2.5 years, got my first license.
> Worked for a small firm for 4 years doing residential service, and construction of hospitals, schools and churches.
> Got my first masters at 4 years
> Joined the IBEW and did construction for 1.5 years
> Did commercial service and started doing electrical testing.
> Was instrumental is starting infra red testing in the early stages of IR cameras(1980-82) for a testing firm.
> Became a NETA certified Electrical Tester
> Started my firm, doing electrical testing,infrared and resolving power issues, grounding issues, and doing electrical work many firms shy away from.
> 20-30% of my customers are electrical contractors and electrical manufactures. We service generators, DC power systems and AC power systems.
> Certified thermographer, though I seldom do IR anymore.
> At present I have 38 men working for me with 12 service trucks.
> 
> In the last 6 years I have hired two assistants to take some of the work load off me, I was working 60-80 hours a week now I do 40-60 hours and I do pretty much what I enjoy in the trade. Resolving problems.
> 
> Right or wrong I have my beliefs, I never call any workers derogatory names, I prefer the truth about the union and open shop workers. Much of what is posted is not so much BS but a misunderstanding between two groups of workers that should get along for the betterment of the trade and all electricians.
> 
> AND I hate it when union members call others RATS. I despise that term.


I appreciate your post Brian and I believe that you believe what you stated to be the truth.I have read several of your post you claim to be truth is only your (skewed) opinion. It would be a wonderful thing if we could get past the BS and help our fellow workers instead of using lies,propaganda and biased views.


----------



## brian john

Brother Noah said:


> I appreciate your post Brian and I believe that you believe what you stated to be the truth.I have read several of your post you claim to be truth is only your (skewed) opinion. It would be a wonderful thing if we could get past the BS and help our fellow workers instead of using lies,propaganda and biased views.



My bias see's you bias and negates this topic. 

Please tell me that you do not believe you open minded about this topic.

We all post from our particular slant, mine is lining my pockets off the backs of hapless union workers, forced to slave away for pennies as I enrich myself. OH THE SHAME.


----------



## sparky970

cl219um said:


> Brian, about your post on fle in our trade. I have worked partners with some of them, and they are not the problem. Some of the best workers out there are part of this group. Only when the contractor violates the system do they start working differently. Some of the more knowledgable guys of the trade. I worked some powerhouses and the only problem they had with me is that I didn't bump thumbs? Just some guys keeping it square with a twist. I would say guys relying on their ticket instead of a contractor. I would worry more about guys using the contract only when it suits them for self gain.


You're not supposed to talk about the secret handshake. Next thing you know everyone will know about the lightning bolt ear ring.:whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## Brother Noah1

brian john said:


> My bias see's you bias and negates this topic.
> 
> Please tell me that you do not believe you open minded about this topic.
> 
> We all post from our particular slant, mine is lining my pockets off the backs of hapless union workers, forced to slave away for pennies as I enrich myself. OH THE SHAME.


Actually I was referring to your knowledge or there lack of union affairs. I would like to believe by your post your work force is treated well by the owner, and yeah you do come across with a twinkle of greed every so often(that's your job though)


----------



## BBQ

Brother Noah said:


> Actually I was referring to your knowledge or there lack of union affairs.


Your continuous head in the sand posts are funny. :laughing:


Union pride http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/verizon_strike_picketing.html



Now wait, that must be made up because Noah says that stuff stopped long ago. 


.


----------



## Chris1971

You may not want to hear this but, every project my company gets, it's one less union project. Sorry folks, just a fact.


----------



## eejack

Chris1971 said:


> You may not want to hear this but, every project my company gets, it's one less union project. Sorry folks, just a fact.


Is there any particular reason why your company is non union? I'm certain the employees could enjoy the benefits of being union and the company would benefit from having a predictable work force at their disposal.


----------



## eejack

BBQ said:


> Your continuous head in the sand posts are funny. :laughing:
> Union pride http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/verizon_strike_picketing.html
> Now wait, that must be made up because Noah says that stuff stopped long ago. .


That was a particularly ugly strike by recent standards. I almost got run over by one of the fill in workers ( some of us electricians walked the lines in support of the comm workers ) - they drove through the lines with a recklessness that bordered on homicidal. 

What has stopped is the pinkertons coming by and bashing our skulls in, but all the other insane crap - that it still on, and in more devious ways.


----------



## knowshorts

eejack said:


> Is there any particular reason why your company is non union? I'm certain the employees could enjoy the benefits of being union and the company would benefit from having a predictable work force at their disposal.


You question wasn't directed at me, but I will answer also. It's just too damn expensive. Plain and simple. Every electrician gets paid exactly what they are worth (in the bosses eyes), unless they are union. I can pay scale to a guy and save $25 an hour. 

The predictable work force is kinda laughable in these parts. Sure you can get bodies, but are you getting a good electrician? Most of the contractors on this site are small sized. Small sized shops do not need to be union. There is no benefit.


----------



## eejack

knowshorts said:


> You question wasn't directed at me, but I will answer also. It's just too damn expensive. Plain and simple. Every electrician gets paid exactly what they are worth (in the bosses eyes), unless they are union. I can pay scale to a guy and save $25 an hour.
> 
> The predictable work force is kinda laughable in these parts. Sure you can get bodies, but are you getting a good electrician? Most of the contractors on this site are small sized. Small sized shops do not need to be union. There is no benefit.


I understand the cheaper part - most non union shops pay way less than union shops. The workers get less money, less benefits etc and it saves the contractor money.

I have to disagree about the laughable work force part however. It may be that the electricians from the hall are not trained like your non union electricians and that is an issue for you.

Most union electricians are well trained, but trained to work safely, to not use shoddy tools and equipment, and to not cut corners in craftsmanship. 

From what I have seen from east coast non union contractors, this is a big issue. They expect all electricians to do 'whatever it takes' to make the contractor happy - and your typical union electrician will draw a line somewhere.

Small shops that stay small really don't benefit from the union hall.

I especially feel small shops that want to expand can best benefit from union labor. Making that payroll is tough every week - and in a non union shop you pretty much have to carry folks through every slow week, just to keep them. Union shops can lay off and hire by the job if need be. 

If you get a job that needs 10 men for two weeks, you call the hall and get ten men for two weeks. Predictable wages, no muss no fuss.


----------



## Brother Noah1

BBQ said:


> Your continuous head in the sand posts are funny. :laughing:
> 
> 
> Union pride http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/verizon_strike_picketing.html
> 
> 
> 
> Now wait, that must be made up because Noah says that stuff stopped long ago.
> 
> 
> .


Yes it is true what I have been exposed to in the last 10 years in reference to organizing is nothing like what I experienced in the past.I do travel the entire USA but you can not expect me to be at every incident you think is an insane union movement. I am proactive union Brother who strives to help all working class within the scope of the electrical industry where as I am capable. Most all contracts I (wake up this means me)have worked under have a no strike clause.Now if a contract is not signed and there is a dispute over working conditions and or (yes) wages, I will walk a peaceful picket line myself(which I have not since Detroit in the late 90's when USA TODAY newspaper sent thug cops to beat union members) 
All union members should have a desire to help make the contractors money as a partnership not slave to master relationship.
Now if you feel the need to try and make fun or jokes of union members post of their beliefs you show an immature approach to a serious matter. 
Yes I do love the IBEW and even thought of a union here elates me.Yes there have been mistakes made by union members in strikes or protest, where passion and emotions are high and where both union members and or contractors are bound to make mistakes in the heat of a movement. We
all have choices and I have almost no issue with others choice to be nonunion as long as we all do have A CHOICE.


----------



## knowshorts

eejack said:


> I understand the cheaper part - most non union shops pay way less than union shops. The workers get less money, less benefits etc and it saves the contractor money.


Remember, we are in 2 different geographical regions. The wages can be comparable if not more for a good non-union electrician. It is my opinion that the benefits are way out of line. Mainly medical. Los Angeles guys pay $1787.52 per month and Orange County guys pay $966.00 per month. Huh? What's that about. Exact same plan.

A big problem here is that a very large portion of the union work is public PLAs. Costing this broke ass state billions. A public works project nearby went majority non-union. PW job, mind you. 2 year project. $38M under budget. 30 days late due to rain. That doesn't happen in CA on public PLAs. 



> I have to disagree about the laughable work force part however. It may be that the electricians from the hall are not trained like your non union electricians and that is an issue for you.


Up until the early 90's the apprenticeship was only 4 years around here. Then it went to 5 years. But since the mid 90's, most local guys have entered through the back door. Training may have suffered. I don't think you can say every union guy has the same training anymore. That goes the same with the non-union. But, I think those guys get more job specific training. 



> Most union electricians are well trained, but trained to work safely, to not use shoddy tools and equipment, and to not cut corners in craftsmanship.


Safety policies are put in place to save WC insurance money. End of story. Realistically, if a guy gets hurt, oh well, call the hall and get a replacement. Do you really think the president of a company like Morrow-Meadows gives a rats ass about a twisted ankle? No, it's about the bottom line.

I wouldn't even know where to find the statistics, but with the non-union doing approximately 88% of the work, does that mean 88% of injuries, lost time accidents, and deaths are non-union. I willing to bet no for some reason.

Corners are cut on both sides of the fence. Do you think slinging MC is true craftsmanship?



> From what I have seen from east coast non union contractors, this is a big issue. They expect all electricians to do 'whatever it takes' to make the contractor happy - and your typical union electrician will draw a line somewhere.


I think both sides will draw that line. Unfortunately in this economy, that line is more in the contractors favor.



> Small shops that stay small really don't benefit from the union hall.


See. We can see eye to eye and agree on something.



> I especially feel small shops that want to expand can best benefit from union labor. Making that payroll is tough every week - and in a non union shop you pretty much have to carry folks through every slow week, just to keep them. Union shops can lay off and hire by the job if need be.
> 
> If you get a job that needs 10 men for two weeks, you call the hall and get ten men for two weeks. Predictable wages, no muss no fuss.


That's why you network. 

The problem is, there is muss and fuss. You don't know who you're gonna get. With a job application on my desk and an interview, I'm pretty good at figuring out how well that person will turn out. That is based on my other experiences, not as an EC.


----------



## eejack

knowshorts said:


> See. We can see eye to eye and agree on something.


I think most people here can see eye to eye on most things. The devil is in the details though. I don't really have any issues with non union, however I do see lots of advantages in going union, both for the contractor and the worker.

I think worker safety is higher on union jobs as a percentage - injuries per man hour for example - mostly because larger jobs mean an increase in safety attention and larger contractors tend to have safer equipment.

The biggest issue I hear about is 'I don't know what kind of worker I am going to get from the hall', and whether or not you get good workers is immaterial, they are *not* the workers *you *picked.

That makes a lot of contractors uncomfortable - especially in small shops.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> I think most people here can see eye to eye on most things. The devil is in the details though. I don't really have any issues with non union, however I do see lots of advantages in going union, both for the contractor and the worker.
> 
> I think worker safety is higher on union jobs as a percentage - injuries per man hour for example - mostly because larger jobs mean an increase in safety attention and larger contractors tend to have safer equipment.


That may have been true in the past, but in the last few years on large jobs, safety SEEMS to about the same. The jobs I have been on they have really cracked down, I THINK a lot of this is driven these days by insurance companies.

Now on small jobs it is another issue.


----------



## Brother Noah1

While we are in a discussion about where all the union work is??? I hear 639 will have many calls soon for their solar arrays. Local 11 there no telling but they have yet to man all their solar work. 440 has 2 different solar projects plus other industrial work on the agenda, in the bay area I hear local 6 only has a hand full on book 1 and their work picture will explode soon for those who have the license, San Jose has been getting into book 2 on a regular basis and 595 has yet to even start on a couple of new power houses. Some of the projects that are funded by the feds does not require a license so call ahead and check for your self, I understand that 11 has been going into book 4 to fill their solar jobs, no license required.
My opinion on the other side issue being discussed is in the union the workers get more of a percentage of the total income and or benefits while the non union contractor takes a lions share leaving crumbs for the workers.


----------



## user4818

Brother Noah said:


> My opinion on the other side issue being discussed is in the union the workers get more of a percentage of the total income and or benefits while the non union contractor takes a lions share leaving crumbs for the workers.


Yeah, you're right, the owners of union shops are non-profit organizations and live like paupers.


----------



## knowshorts

Brother Noah said:


> My opinion on the other side issue being discussed is in the union the workers get more of a percentage of the total income and or benefits while the non union contractor takes a lions share leaving crumbs for the workers.


I know that is your opinion, but it is most likely false. While it is true, as a whole, the union guys make more per hour, but that is because on the non union workers are paid exactly what they are worth. Not every union guy deserves to be earning scale, just like not every non union guy deserves to be making $40 an hour. No one should be entitled to sh!t. You should earn it.

And if you think all these non-union contractors are getting super rich because they resorting back to pre 1865, you are mistaken. There are quite a few business owners who are making far less than their employees. 

A lot of those projects you mentioned are public projects. What is gonna happen when people wake up and realize it's all a bunch of bullsh1t? People are tired of government wasting their tax money.


----------



## Kirk89

spiderneck30 said:


> Im a non union guy who just got accepted into local 25. However i am a little worried. For one, i am currently working open shop with a great company that is growing and has plenty of work, great pay, 401k, benefits, lots of overtime, prevailing wage jobs etc. Things are just great and the future looks promising with this particular company. At the same time i just got the acceptance letter from the IBEW. Now i know that going union may seem like a no brainer. But the problem is that EVERYWHERE i look and EVERYONE i talk to and EVERY THREAD i read seem to suggest that joining the union is synonomous to sitting on the bench. Lots of stories about guys working only 2-3 months a year and etc.
> 
> I really want the union and the opportunity is now here. But i dont want to leave a shop which has work for the next 10 years just to go union and sit on the bench for most of my life. The local in question is local 25 which covers all of long island, new york. Is there anyone here that can inform me as to the politics of local 25 as well as the percentage of workers who are currently on the bench? A guy on my job said that the current waiting list is TWO YEARS. Thats just crazy man. I know that work can get slow whether union or non union but it just seems like the work union is synonomous with unemployment when i speak to most people. I mean is it really that bad and if so whats the point.


To quote an ex union member that I talked to he said - "truth is the union shops only want the apprentices because of the cheap labor and unless your the 2% of shop guys that run work you’ll be unemployed most of your illustrious IBEW career." 
I'm looking into the electrical field as a career, and just like you the more people I talk to and the more threads I read on this forum it seems like going union is a waste of time.


----------



## eejack

knowshorts said:


> ... the non union workers are paid exactly what they are worth.


The non union worker is paid whatever the worker can get. A productive worker that does not ask for more money, does not have an idea that he can get more, is afraid for his/her job is going to take whatever he/she is offered. They are getting what they can dare to afford.

I realize that not every shop is that way, but let us be honest - contractors want to make money - it is why they are in business. They believe they make more money by paying less wages. And contractors know there is a glut of skilled labor out there right now, so skilled labor is making less money.

What they are worth?

What they are worth to the contractor.

And how many of you have heard ( union, non union ) lately that you are 'lucky to have a job' in the last four or five years?


----------



## eejack

Kirk89 said:


> To quote an ex union member that I talked to he said - "truth is the union shops only want the apprentices because of the cheap labor and unless your the 2% of shop guys that run work you’ll be unemployed﻿ most of your illustrious IBEW career."
> I'm looking into the electrical field as a career, and just like you the more people I talk to and the more threads I read on this forum it seems like going union is a waste of time.


In my 28 years in the union I have worked most of the time. I probably average a monthish layoff a year up until three years ago. The last few years have been tough - I was out for 22 months in one stretch.

Keep in mind, we are currently experiencing depression level unemployment in the skill trades so union and non union are doing poorly. I suspect that in recent years non union workers have had more opportunity to work, though for less wages, so short term non union appears to be better. However, even with my long layoff, I never lost my insurance or other benefits.

Don't take the word of any one individual - go out and talk to lots of folks, go to your local supply houses, your local union hall and ask around.

And welcome to the trade, best of luck.


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## Kirk89

Just curious in the almost 2 year layoff you had what were you doing for income? You don't have to answer, again just curious.


----------



## Roger.

Brother Noah said:


> while the non union contractor takes a lions share leaving crumbs for the workers.


You want to try again or remain being viewed as a dumb POS? I work for a medium size merrit shop (300 to 400 employees) and even in these rough times we see to it that employees make good wages, (yes that is regionally speaking) have vacations, paid holidays, insurance, 401K, and a few more benefits while we as a company as well as the owners are making very little. 


Roger


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## eejack

Kirk89 said:


> Just curious in the almost 2 year layoff you had what were you doing for income? You don't have to answer, again just curious.


I collected unemployment, used my annuity and my local subsidized my unemployment with their Supplemental Unemployment Benefit fund.

I did do a bit of painting and roofing and carpentry side work - mostly work for favors, and a good bit of volunteer work. A lot of what I did was to keep busy, being idle depresses me.

The worst part is not 'earning' a check, even though I probably worked harder for less than any other time in my life.


----------



## BBQ

eejack said:


> Don't take the word of any one individual - go out and talk to lots of folks, go to your local supply houses, your local union hall and ask around.


Really great advice there. 

We should never take the word of one.


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## Shockdoc

DO you want to hear it from the


The Horses Ass

or

The Horses mouth


----------



## Chris1971

eejack said:


> I collected unemployment, used my annuity and my local subsidized my unemployment with their Supplemental Unemployment Benefit fund.
> 
> I did do a bit of painting and roofing and carpentry side work - mostly work for favors, and a good bit of volunteer work. A lot of what I did was to keep busy, being idle depresses me.
> 
> The worst part is not 'earning' a check, even though I probably worked harder for less than any other time in my life.


Stealing work from union painters, carpenters and roofing contractors. No shame?:no:


----------



## eejack

Chris1971 said:


> Stealing work from union painters, carpenters and roofing contractors. No shame?:no:


All residential - so only stealing from union painters, carpenters, and roofers who do side work for my friends and family..


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## Chris1971

eejack said:


> All residential - so only stealing from union painters, carpenters, and roofers who do side work for my friends and family..


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## EBFD6

eejack said:


> All residential - so only stealing from union painters, carpenters, and roofers who do side work for my friends and family..


They have street signs named after guys like you


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## eejack

EBFD6 said:


> They have street signs named after guys like you


Maybe I'm a bit dense today...I don't get it.


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## BBQ

EBFD6 said:


> They have street signs named after guys like you





eejack said:


> Maybe I'm a bit dense today...I don't get it.


----------



## eejack

BBQ said:


> very nice pic of a one way sign


... still don't get it ...


----------



## EBFD6

eejack said:


> ... still don't get it ...


Let me 'splain for you

You and your union buddies get your panties all twisted up when us non-union lowlifes "steal your work"

But, it's perfectly ok for you to take food off the tables of non-union painters, carpenters and roofers.

That makes you one way, as long as it's good for you, great. F#@k everyone else.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy, that's all.


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## Shockdoc

...................


----------



## brian john

Kirk89 said:


> To quote an ex union member that I talked to he said - "truth is the union shops only want the apprentices because of the cheap labor and unless your the 2% of shop guys that run work you’ll be unemployed﻿ most of your illustrious IBEW career."
> I'm looking into the electrical field as a career, and just like you the more people I talk to and the more threads I read on this forum it seems like going union is a waste of time.


In my area good union workers are employees 99.9 percent of their career, there are always a few men out of work, but there are usually good reasons for this.

All my employees are long term employees 5-25 years with a few new guys, they average 48-60 hours a week.

We had apprentices transfers in June. One of the apprentices that worked for me had his baby daddy's mothers father ask me to get him a job. I hired him from Dominos (delivering pizza) he had a knocked up his girl friend and no clue what to do. One thing I explained to him when he transferred was to keep an open mind, do not look down on open shops and be don't drink too much kool-aid. 

Last week he met with a few of our younger workers for beers and called them all fu*king rats. Seems the construction electricians he is working with, have convinced this ungrateful POS that union workers that are long term employees, that work OT when asked are beholding to the *MAN* and therefore are no better than rats.

I really thought we were pass that here?

Guess who won't be getting a rehired in 4 years.


----------



## Cl906um

For all of the nay Sayers of the ibew. Currently there is an organizing blitz. If you are unhappy with your wages and benefits now is the time to come out of this dull drum and take a stand for better wages and benefits. Let's face it. I wasted 13 years working non union. I have nothing to show for as far as retirement goes. Until I joined the union.. If you are serious about the trade.sure when I was young I to felt why not go merit? I can run as good as anyone else. Now, that seems like the competition. Teach them to bend some emt and pull some wire. This isn't what it's all about. Cheap labor. What about actually teaching the way to build a job from the ground up. Not just with the electrical drawings. Hurray for me.. But actually working with other trades. Why wouldn't you want a chance and opportunity to work with friends in hometown? And get paid what you are worth. There are great opportunities for everyone out there. United we stand. Divided we beg. Obama or lose.(Davis bacon act.) contact your local union hall. They will open your eyes to the matter. I was organized. It really was hard to cash the bigger checks and see my pension statement for a while, but I got used to it.


----------



## ohiosparky99

cl219um said:


> For all of the nay Sayers of the ibew. Currently there is an organizing blitz. If you are unhappy with your wages and benefits now is the time to come out of this dull drum and take a stand for better wages and benefits. Let's face it. I wasted 13 years working non union. I have nothing to show for as far as retirement goes. Until I joined the union.. If you are serious about the trade.sure when I was young I to felt why not go merit? I can run as good as anyone else. Now, that seems like the competition. Teach them to bend some emt and pull some wire. This isn't what it's all about. Cheap labor. What about actually teaching the way to build a job from the ground up. Not just with the electrical drawings. Hurray for me.. But actually working with other trades. Why wouldn't you want a chance and opportunity to work with friends in hometown? And get paid what you are worth. There are great opportunities for everyone out there. United we stand. Divided we beg. Obama or lose.(Davis bacon act.) contact your local union hall. They will open your eyes to the matter. I was organized. It really was hard to cash the bigger checks and see my pension statement for a while, but I got used to it.


Normally I never comment on the union topic stuff, but come on man, stop drinking the cool-aid and blow that stuff up someone else's butt


----------



## Cl906um

This coming from who?


----------



## walkerj

cl219um said:


> For all of the nay Sayers of the ibew. Currently there is an organizing blitz. If you are unhappy with your wages and benefits now is the time to come out of this dull drum and take a stand for better wages and benefits. Let's face it. I wasted 13 years working non union. I have nothing to show for as far as retirement goes. Until I joined the union.. If you are serious about the trade.sure when I was young I to felt why not go merit? I can run as good as anyone else. Now, that seems like the competition. Teach them to bend some emt and pull some wire. This isn't what it's all about. Cheap labor. What about actually teaching the way to build a job from the ground up. Not just with the electrical drawings. Hurray for me.. But actually working with other trades. Why wouldn't you want a chance and opportunity to work with friends in hometown? And get paid what you are worth. There are great opportunities for everyone out there. United we stand. Divided we beg. Obama or lose.(Davis bacon act.) contact your local union hall. They will open your eyes to the matter. I was organized. It really was hard to cash the bigger checks and see my pension statement for a while, but I got used to it.


Dude. 
People do this in open shops too. 

All this means to me personally is that you are a lazy sloth that found a way to get retirement without any extra effort. 

The only reason there is a 'blitz' is because the BA and the BM want a raise or can't cover rent at the local. 

JMSHO


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## Cl906um

What stuff. The fact that we earn a better wage. Don't tell me. Wait for it. Wait for it. You are a non union contractor who doesn't want employees to learn the truth. Paying poverty wages and no benefits?


----------



## user4818

cl219um said:


> For all of the nay Sayers of the ibew. Currently there is an organizing blitz.


Not surprising considering the amount of government work going on. I'd love to see some hard numbers of just how much the IBEW depends on taxpayer funded projects.


----------



## walkerj

cl219um said:


> What stuff. The fact that we earn a better wage. Don't tell me. Wait for it. Wait for it. You are a non union contractor who doesn't want employees to learn the truth. Paying poverty wages and no benefits?


No I am an employee of a non union contractor. 

If I were in the hood I would be one of those evil shoppies that care more about the owner than the men. 
He signs my check. 
He took the risk. 
He deserves the direct rewards. 
I get my cut also. 
I make more than scale with better benefits. 

In other words, salts can GFYs


----------



## Cl906um

I guess you don't get it. I could run circles around you. I worked non union for years. The guys that get promotions there are assho&@ jerks that completely sucked with the tools. And they were usually one and done. How many older guys do u see working in the nonunion field. The answer. None.why? Cause they have all come to their senses or opened a dog house wiring business on there own.


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## Cl906um

Scale in baton rouge sucks anyway.why. Not because non union workers demand better. It's cause of lack of union. Start one! New one. Why is it that abc is a type of union. For contractors. It's ok for a contractor to talk amongst others, but not employees? What do you think goes on at these meetings? Are they talking about how they can make employees richer. Heck no. They are talking about how they can fatten there pockets, abolish prevailing wage... SOme of the things that make middle class have the ability to golf at their courses. Maybe camp next to them. All the union stands for is preserving the middle class. I too know what your boss has been feeding you. I have been fed the same shot. Broken promises.. lies.

Ing


----------



## eejack

EBFD6 said:


> Let me 'splain for you
> 
> You and your union buddies get your panties all twisted up when us non-union lowlifes "steal your work"
> 
> But, it's perfectly ok for you to take food off the tables of non-union painters, carpenters and roofers.
> 
> That makes you one way, as long as it's good for you, great. F#@k everyone else.
> 
> Just pointing out the hypocrisy, that's all.


Ahh.

I apologize if you feel like a lowlife - I have no issue with you but I shall not take any blame for your feeling inadequate. That is on you.

If you feel like you are stealing union work and that makes you feel bad, again, that is on you. My 'panties' ain't twisting over it in the slightest.

There is no hypocrisy here. I support union labor. I see no reason why I should then go out of my way to have my friends and family use non union labor when they are surrounded by out of work union brothers and sisters. They have tables, surrounded by families that need to eat as well.


----------



## Cl906um

I signed up for the ibew. If you don't care for it get together amongst all the others in your open shop and talk together about wages. It has always been a big secret in the open shops I have worked. Why? They say there is a problem with nepotism ? How can you argue it in an open shop? You can't. It is what it is there. No hard feelings ? Bosses son comes off the street and maybe you have no ties. He makes same when you have say, four years. Sucks don't it?


----------



## Shockdoc

cl219um said:


> Scale in baton rouge sucks anyway.why. Not because non union workers demand better. It's cause of lack of union. Start one! New one. Why is it that abc is a type of union. For contractors. It's ok for a contractor to talk amongst others, but not employees? What do you think goes on at these meetings? Are they talking about how they can make employees richer. Heck no. They are talking about how they can fatten there pockets, abolish prevailing wage... SOme of the things that make middle class have the ability to golf at their courses. Maybe camp next to them. All the union stands for is preserving the middle class. I too know what your boss has been feeding you. I have been fed the same shot. Broken promises.. lies.
> 
> Ing


That has some weight with some large non union shops, not all though however. You put your time in and then go off on your own, trust me I wish I had the annuity and pension I once had while IBEW 25. That's something that did'nt exist in the non union sector I worked. I push myself at age 41 but I keep my eyes on the prize such as finishing a two week job in 8 days .


----------



## eejack

Peter D said:


> Not surprising considering the amount of government work going on. I'd love to see some hard numbers of just how much the IBEW depends on taxpayer funded projects.


That is a interesting question. I suspect if you count in utilities it would be a fair bit of what the IBEW ( and unions in general ) does.

Since generalized government spending is about 40% of the gross domestic product in America, I would suspect as a percentage we would be about the same - around 40%.


----------



## walkerj

cl219um said:


> Scale in baton rouge sucks anyway.why. Not because non union workers demand better. It's cause of lack of union. Start one! New one. Why is it that abc is a type of union. For contractors. It's ok for a contractor to talk amongst others, but not employees? What do you think goes on at these meetings? Are they talking about how they can make employees richer. Heck no. They are talking about how they can fatten there pockets, abolish prevailing wage... SOme of the things that make middle class have the ability to golf at their courses. Maybe camp next to them. All the union stands for is preserving the middle class. I too know what your boss has been feeding you. I have been fed the same shot. Broken promises.. lies.
> 
> Ing


My boss doesn't feed me anything. 
He just allows me to live a good life. 
It might be stressful and it might be hard sometimes. 
I run all the jobs and am privy to all information. 
Payroll, budget, P&L. 
I know what tools cost, what the guys cost, the cost of job x at time y, how much my superiors make, how much our accountant makes, how much we owe the SHs, what we are owed, what is projected for the month/year, what we are doing next week, what we billed for last month, what the best price was on the 70k RI order was at job A last week. 

All of our guys could see this info, all they have to do is ask. 

We are all about our guys making money and living a good life. But if boss man can't get paid this month then they are on the chopping block. 
It's a two way street guy. 

I'm with Roger. 
Most contractors of bigger shops make the same or sometimes less than the field.


----------



## Theriot

All the Union work is here.


----------



## Cl906um

Shockdoc said:


> That has some weight with some large non union shops, not all though however. You put your time in and then go off on your own, trust me I wish I had the annuity and pension I once had while IBEW 25. That's something that did'nt exist in the non union sector I worked. I push myself at age 41 but I keep my eyes on the prize such as finishing a two week job in 8 days .


And how long did it take god to build heaven and earth? You must be something.:notworthy:


----------



## rlc3854

cl219um said:


> And how long did it take god to build heaven and earth? You must be something.:notworthy:


 
We all get it, you are proud to be union. You are the sum of all of your training and experience. Move on to topics of electrical work/practices. All the union brothers should work to increase their numbers not scare them off. The world has changed, even large states with strong unions are losing market share. People are being trained through other learning institutions that are certified. People starting/running businesses know what the costs are for skilled/educated workers. Wages and benefits can be attained through good companies. I worked for a large industrial contractor here that paid above New Orleans scale and had better benefits (medical,dental,vision, sick and vacation). They had over 2,000 men on one job, we were a maintenance and turn around crew of 300. The unions started to fade here in the early 1980's, Baton Rouge went from around 20 union shops to 3 in 1983 alone. Ask yourself why?


----------



## walkerj

rlc3854 said:


> We all get it, you are proud to be union. You are the sum of all of your training and experience. Move on to topics of electrical work/practices. All the union brothers should work to increase their numbers not scare them off. The world has changed, even large states with strong unions are losing market share. People are being trained through other learning institutions that are certified. People starting/running businesses know what the costs are for skilled/educated workers. Wages and benefits can be attained through good companies. I worked for a large industrial contractor here that paid above New Orleans scale and had better benefits (medical,dental,vision, sick and vacation). They had over 2,000 men on one job, we were a maintenance and turn around crew of 300. The unions started to fade here in the early 1980's, Baton Rouge went from around 20 union shops to 3 in 1983 alone. Ask yourself why?


Thanks


----------



## Cl906um

This is the union forum. Move on? Not as long as people are going to bash something that I truly believe in. I am out for every electrician trying to better themselves. 300 sounds like a good number. If you are making more than scale plus benefits maybe I should follow your lead:thumbsup:


----------



## Cl906um

walkerj said:


> Thanks


Had better benefits you say? Where did they go?:no:


----------



## rlc3854

Like a lot of folks here I have trained and worked both union and non union in three states. I'm old and retired, I have worked for very large EC's, the government and my own EC business. This is a right to work state and I have worked both union and non union here. Good people and very ugly people in both. It is unfortunate that here you can make better wages and benefits working for an out fit like Stewart's Services then you can with the union. Hell there is a union plumbing shop here that hires their own non union electricians and wait for it---pays better than the local!


----------



## Mulder

cl219um said:


> This is the union forum. Move on? Not as long as people are going to bash something that I truly believe in. I am out for every electrician trying to better themselves. 300 sounds like a good number. If you are making more than scale plus benefits maybe I should follow your lead:thumbsup:



And to some people you are bashing something they truly believe in.


----------



## Cl906um

Agree to disagree then. Hard to beat self to death. Feel like a one leg man an an ass kicking contest talking to you. Like I said. If I had the opportunity to make more than in the union. I would drop my ticket today. Probably wouldn't be doing lectrical work though'


----------



## black

Ain't no work around here, I know that for a fact...


----------



## BBQ

cl219um said:


> Agree to disagree then. Hard to beat self to death. Feel like a one leg man an an ass kicking contest talking to you. Like I said. If I had the opportunity to make more than in the union. I would drop my ticket today. Probably wouldn't be doing lectrical work though'


For some of us there is more to it than just the money. 

Assuming i could get in I could likely make more in the union, I still would not be intrested.


----------



## ibuzzard

black said:


> Ain't no work around here, I know that for a fact...


What local are you in? Still plenty of calls in 332.


----------



## 360max

rlc3854 said:


> Like a lot of folks here I have trained and worked both union and non union in three states. I'm old and retired, I have worked for very large EC's, the government and my own EC business. *This is a right to work state* and I have worked both union and non union here. Good people and very ugly people in both. It is unfortunate that here you can make better wages and benefits working for an out fit like Stewart's Services then you can with the union. Hell there is a union plumbing shop here that hires their own non union electricians and wait for it---*pays better than the local!*




hard to believe


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> [/B]
> 
> hard to believe


It happens, my rate is far above RI electricians union 'residential rate'.


----------



## 360max

BBQ said:


> For some of us there is more to it than just the money.
> 
> Assuming i could get in I could likely make more in the union, I still would not be intrested.


...only because you are established in your current situation. If work was plentiful and had a choice to go union as a young electrician, you'd be a fool not to at least try the union, IMO. Not saying non union is bad, btw, we all need to feed our families.


----------



## 360max

BBQ said:


> It happens, my rate is far above RI electricians union 'residential rate'.


...and what about industrial/commercial rate?


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> ...only because you are established in your current situation.


:wallbash::wallbash:

God you guys just can't accept anything. :laughing:

The post that started our conversation had said they 'hire' at higher than rate. That has nothing to do with being established.

My point was simply that some union rates are surprisingly low. Not all by any means, just some.



> If work was plentiful and had a choice to go union as a young electrician, you'd be a fool not to at least try the union,


Agreed and I might have gone that way had the unions actions not turned me off to it. I had a great chance to get a full time union in house position, but turned it down.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Agreed and I might have gone that way had the unions actions not turned me off to it. I had a great chance to get a full time union in house position, but turned it down.


I'm good with that.:thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> I'm good with that.:thumbsup:


:laughing:



> In 2010, the percentage of workers belonging to a union in the United States (or total labor union "density") was 11.4%, compared to 18.6% in Germany, 27.5% in Canada, and 70% in Finland.[1] Union membership in the private sector has fallen under 7%[2] — levels not seen since 1932.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States


Seems like they need to work on not turning people off. ... Really, no ball busting just an opinion.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Seems like they need to work on not turning people off. ... Really, no ball busting just an opinion.


That's fair. You could use a dose of that yourself.:laughing:


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> That's fair. You could use a dose of that yourself.:laughing:


:laughing::laughing:

But my membership has always been one, it will not decrease till I am dead,


----------



## sparky970

Local 48 is still putting out quite a few calls


----------



## rlc3854

360max said:


> [/b]
> 
> hard to believe


 
Yes it is but, it is a fact in this state. A lot of the local union brothers always traveled out of state until the economy tanked. Some talked of early retirement because of what they were able to earn on the check and pension from locals like LU 3. But now the years for retirement are extended out. When I joined a local here the talk was about the problems of recruiting apprentices and keeping new JW's because of the CBA being reduced to below what was being offered by new construction contractor as well as in house maintenance contracts. Local businesses are one thing for trying to drive down wages and benefit packages but, businesses like tradesmen international and America corp as well as job agencies are sucking the blood right out of labor. Just take a look at what the locals offer here in this state, wages/bennies. Calif offered better packages in the mid 80's!


----------



## Brother Noah1

LA has work on solar farms only taking a couple of days to get a call(no cert required) 428 has the same with solar farms and some school and or power work that do require a state license, 639 has still been putting out on their solar farms as well with no cert required. The Bay area has several locals putting out (taking a couple three weeks with license) but scales are the highest in the country.From what I have read of Federal money already appropriated they will need several thousand licensed JW's(more than what is available) for the next 5-7 years. If I am a tad bit correct I believe this thread was about Work!!!


----------



## 360max

rlc3854 said:


> Yes it is but, it is a fact in this state. A lot of the local union brothers always traveled out of state until the economy tanked. Some talked of early retirement because of what *they were able to earn on the check and pension from locals like LU 3*. But now the years for retirement are extended out. When I joined a local here the talk was about the problems of recruiting apprentices and keeping new JW's because of the CBA being reduced to below what was being offered by new construction contractor as well as in house maintenance contracts. Local businesses are one thing for trying to drive down wages and benefit packages but, businesses like tradesmen international and America corp as well as job agencies are sucking the blood right out of labor. Just take a look at what the locals offer here in this state, wages/bennies. Calif offered better packages in the mid 80's!


local 3 is NYC, and I doubt someone is coming from LA to sign on NYC books, yet alone have any chance of seeing work. Local 3 is a great local, but has been hungry for work for quite some time.


----------



## rlc3854

360max said:


> *local 3 is NYC, and I doubt someone is coming from LA to sign on NYC books, yet alone have any chance of seeing work. Local 3 is a great local, but has been hungry for work for quite some time.[/*quote]
> 
> 
> Just checking, from my earlier post I was trying to explain to YOU how the local brothers from here traveled to NYC to work and earn the higher wages and benefits "UNTIL THE ECONOMY" tanked and now they will have to work years longer in the local area to make it on their retirement. I'm beginning to believe as BBQ stated "you just can't except anything said other than your own statements". I do understand that some times it is hard to convey what you want to say on the internet. Several people here have made comments about traveling to other states to sign the books, brother noah has given advice to where getting out on book 2 is still possible. And apprentices still use the term after turning out "Going on a book signing tour".


----------



## knowshorts

I usually don't jump back into threads that are 21 pages long, but Brother Noah fails to mention something. That solar farm north of LA is going unfilled and has been going to book 2.

Here is the live job posting:



> _# Reqst:_4_District:_5_Start:_ 06:30 am _Location:_FIRST SOLAR AVSR #1 _Duration:_4 WEEKS+ _Notes:_STATE CERT RQRD*CERT CABLESPLICER RQRD*ZIP CODE RQSTD; DRUG TEST RQRD WHEN DISP'D; NEXT DAY START; 138 TO 170TH WEST, HEAD NORTH FOLLOW FIRST SOLAR SIGNS; RPT TO SECURITY; MED VOLTAGE CABLE SPLICING


With a Zip Code requirement, chances are no travelers will be eligible.


----------



## slickvic277

knowshorts said:


> I usually don't jump back into threads that are 21 pages long, but Brother Noah fails to mention something. That solar farm north of LA is going unfilled and has been going to book 2.
> 
> Here is the live job posting:
> 
> 
> 
> With a Zip Code requirement, chances are no travelers will be eligible.


I'm about as far away as possible with out leaving the country and quite a few guys from my local have made the trip out there and all of them went out pretty fast. With in a few days to a week. :thumbsup:


----------



## Brother Noah1

slickvic277 said:


> I'm about as far away as possible with out leaving the country and quite a few guys from my local have made the trip out there and all of them went out pretty fast. With in a few days to a week. :thumbsup:


Yes and I also understand that even book 4 has benefited from the solar farm boom!


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> *I'm about as far away as possible with out leaving the country a*nd quite a few guys from my local have made the trip out there and all of them went out pretty fast. With in a few days to a week. :thumbsup:


If you want to leave the country we'd miss you but you are free to go, without leaving a forwarding address.:laughing::laughing::no:


----------



## Brother Noah1

knowshorts said:


> I usually don't jump back into threads that are 21 pages long, but Brother Noah fails to mention something. That solar farm north of LA is going unfilled and has been going to book 2.
> 
> Here is the live job posting:
> 
> 
> 
> With a Zip Code requirement, chances are no travelers will be eligible.


The only zip code requirement I am aware of for these said solar farms right now is that are from somewhere in the USA!


----------



## knowshorts

That's kind of interesting that Local 11 would dispatch out of state travelers. They were behind the whole State Certification law getting passed. It was their idea. They rushed the law in really fast before Gray Davis got booted and the language of the law was too vague. 

The mistake of the language is that is states all employees of C-10 contractors that "terminate any electrical apparatus" must be certified. The quotes are mine. Basically you can do all electrical work except terminating wire and not be required to be certified.

It's just interesting. They wanted the law, fought for the law, got the law, and are now ignoring the law (even though the law is probably not being broken).


----------



## big2bird

knowshorts said:


> That's kind of interesting that Local 11 would dispatch out of state travelers. They were behind the whole State Certification law getting passed. It was their idea. They rushed the law in really fast before Gray Davis got booted and the language of the law was too vague. Nope. That came from 441. I was there that night.
> 
> The mistake of the language is that is states all employees of C-10 contractors that "terminate any electrical apparatus" must be certified. The quotes are mine. Basically you can do all electrical work except terminating wire and not be required to be certified.Nope. Only trade show work is exempt.
> 
> It's just interesting. They wanted the law, fought for the law, got the law, and are now ignoring the law (even though the law is probably not being broken).


Not really.


----------



## knowshorts

big2bird said:


> Not really.


Orange County helped. It was LA who pushed it. They had the money and were in bed with Davis. LA/OC share money but LA is the daddy in that relationship.

This is what the state law says:



> Labor Code section 108 (c)
> As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons who engage in the *connection of electrical devices* for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes. This section does not apply to persons performing work to which Section 7042.5 of the Business and Professions Code is applicable, or to electrical work ordinarily and customarily performed by stationary engineers. This section does not apply to electrical work in connection with the installation, operation, or maintenance of temporary or portable electrical equipment performed by technicians in the theatrical, motion picture production, television, hotel, exhibition, or trade show industries.


While there are specific exemptions, they messed up on the language. The original language said ALL employees of C-10 contractors. Remember how there was a delay in making this law the law and they kept extending certifications for those who already took the test? That was because the original working was incorrect. ALL included all office and field personnel that were not employed as electricians. So ALL was replaced by "connection of electrical devices" which has been argued successfully to mean "terminating wire". 

I like the basis of the law but unfortunately it's birth was flawed by politics.

I think it was a poor design and could have been written a lot better. I mean hell, it took them a what, a dozen years to figure out how this was going to be enforced? None of the money we pay every three years goes to enforcement? It goes to a bunch of fat chicks up in Sacramento with sweaty cankles. Oh, and who else? The business manger of local 11.


----------



## big2bird

knowshorts said:


> Orange County helped. It was LA who pushed it. They had the money and were in bed with Davis. LA/OC share money but LA is the daddy in that relationship.
> 
> This is what the state law says:
> 
> 
> 
> While there are specific exemptions, they messed up on the language. The original language said ALL employees of C-10 contractors. Remember how there was a delay in making this law the law and they kept extending certifications for those who already took the test? That was because the original working was incorrect. ALL included all office and field personnel that were not employed as electricians. So ALL was replaced by "connection of electrical devices" which has been argued successfully to mean "terminating wire".
> 
> I like the basis of the law but unfortunately it's birth was flawed by politics.
> 
> I think it was a poor design and could have been written a lot better. I mean hell, it took them a what, a dozen years to figure out how this was going to be enforced? None of the money we pay every three years goes to enforcement? It goes to a bunch of fat chicks up in Sacramento with sweaty cankles. Oh, and who else? The business manger of local 11.


Can you boil this down to a point? Do you have proof the BM of 11 is recieving $$ from Sacramento?


----------



## knowshorts

big2bird said:


> Can you boil this down to a point? Do you have proof the BM of 11 is recieving $$ from Sacramento?


I am going to try to follow forum rules and not get political, but in order to answer your question, I was doing research on Novembers elections. When I got to a certain proposition (and I am sure you know which one I am talking about) a certain name kept popping up. With my undiagnosed ADD I kept getting sidetracked and more and more questions kept popping up. I found out that he is damn near what they call a 1% because of his salary. Which I can't really figure out the math. I still have a copy of the by-laws they gave me when I inquired about becoming signatory and cross referencing with the PW site, it doesn't make sense. I also found out he was given a position in Sacramento. I don't recall the specifics but I read it somewhere. The more I read, the more I understood why they want a no vote. There is just too much irony there.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

I'm out of local 76 Tacoma, Washington. I will most likely be working through January then plan on coming down to California to work. I have filled out the paper work and have made copies of my JW license as well as a certificate from my apprenticeship saying I've graduated and have all the hours.

I am curious though about the California request for a Social Security work history report. It looks as though you must also get that in order to take the state test? Know anything about that knowshorts or bigbird?


----------



## knowshorts

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I'm out of local 76 Tacoma, Washington. I will most likely be working through January then plan on coming down to California to work. I have filled out the paper work and have made copies of my JW license as well as a certificate from my apprenticeship saying I've graduated and have all the hours.
> 
> I am curious though about the California request for a Social Security work history report. It looks as though you must also get that in order to take the state test? Know anything about that knowshorts or bigbird?


That is a newer requirement that I actually heard about from a discussion here. It is just to verify hours. I don't know how that report can be used to verify hours though. I would contact the DIR and explain your situation to find out how to properly time everything. You want to get the ball rolling while you're in WA.


----------



## Brother Noah1

Although I do read up on issues that effect the unions well being, I have not found the time to dwell on one particular BM's finances in my efforts to better our union. By your post it would make me believe you are accusing local 11's BM of unethical business dealings? My basic knowledge of the solar farms in locals 11,440,428, and 639 that are hiring unlicensed Journeymen is any entity that receives Federal funds for construction of electrical generation, does not have to require state license.With all the work that already has had federal money appropriated there should be a need for several thousand more licensed JW's that the state of California does not have at this post.


----------



## BBQ

Brother Noah said:


> My basic knowledge of the solar farms in locals 11,440,428, and 639 that are hiring unlicensed Journeymen is any entity that receives Federal funds for construction of electrical generation, does not have to require state license.


Glad it is not like that here. Here a license is required to perform electrical work unless you are working directly for a utility doing things that the NEC does not apply to.




> With all the work that already has had federal money appropriated there should be a need for several thousand more licensed JW's that the state of California does not have at this post.


It seems you are advocating that the want for a job to be done is reason enough to use under-qualified help and screw over those that took the time to get their license.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Glad it is not like that here. Here a license is required to perform electrical work unless you are working directly for a utility doing things that the NEC does not apply to.


We are talking about utility work here.


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> It seems you are advocating that the want for a job to be done is reason enough to use under-qualified help and screw over those that took the time to get their license.


It seems you are trying to spin doctor his statement.


----------



## big2bird

I have known brother Noah quite awhile. He travels frequently, knows his stuff, and is more likely to be better informed about Federal works requirements than a one man residential EC from Mass.:laughing:


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> We are talking about utility work here.


He said power generation, that could be private or utility.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> It seems you are trying to spin doctor his statement.


Just looking at it from a different prospective. Each person can decide how they feel about.


----------



## BBQ

big2bird said:


> than a one man residential EC from Mass.:laughing:


No, I have told you before, I sell women shoes at the mall. :whistling2:


----------



## slickvic277

BBQ said:


> Glad it is not like that here. Here a license is required to perform electrical work unless you are working directly for a utility doing things that the NEC does not apply to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you are advocating that the want for a job to be done is reason enough to use under-qualified help and screw over those that took the time to get their license.



You are a better troll then you get credit for. :laughing:

I kinda agree with you. We don't have individual licensing here. Just the EC is required to take the ICC masters test that was written specifically for the city in order to contract work. Other then that, the individual electrician works directly under the EC's license.

Our local has lobbied hard for a state wide licensing requirement for electricians but has been road blocked by the ABC, IECA and the COC for a long time now. The open shop doesn't want licensing for there employees. I wonder why????

Anyway, I have mixed emotions for licensing requirements. On one hand it ensures a trained workforce, which in theory should raise wages but on the other hand it makes things a little difficult for the traveling electrician. Not so much that the test it's self is too difficult, but the logistics of traveling across country, scheduling a test, taking the test and then securing a job, in a market where jobs won't and don't wait around is problematic.

I was outta state this summer and had to get licensed for the job. Money well spent I suppose. Except now I have a license in a state I_ may _never return too. 

I guess if I were forced to choose, I would choose a licensing requirement but I would like to see some more reciprocity among the states. 

Here's an example of how licensing can get out of control. Like I already explained, we don't have state wide licensing and locally it is only required for the EC to have. (Things are different through out the state) Each municipality is different. Here most contractors have anywhere from 3-5 licenses just to contract work in our locals jurisdiction and the neighboring locals too. Seems a bit crazy to me.

Also, for some reason there seems to be a thought among the lawmakers that Solar for some reason isn't an electrical instillation. We had to fight tooth and nail to enforce the licensing requirements for EC's when it came to Solar here in my area. When the credits and government incentives came out, every cockroach with a contractors license became over night "solar experts". Most of them where janitors and handymen who were finishing basements just a month earlier.

So Bob, do you support a more regulated and government controlled market place and endorse licensing to perform a service? OR do you take a more conservative, open market approach and support freedom of the customers choice and let the reputation of the entity offering a service be the deciding factor in a bid win?

I'm curious.


----------



## slickvic277

slickvic277 said:


> You are a better troll then you get credit for. :laughing:
> 
> I kinda agree with you. We don't have individual licensing here. Just the EC is required to take the ICC masters test that was written specifically for the city in order to contract work. Other then that, the individual electrician works directly under the EC's license.
> 
> Our local has lobbied hard for a state wide licensing requirement for electricians but has been road blocked by the ABC, IECA and the COC for a long time now. The open shop doesn't want licensing for there employees. I wonder why????
> 
> Anyway, I have mixed emotions for licensing requirements. On one hand it ensures a trained workforce, which in theory should raise wages but on the other hand it makes things a little difficult for the traveling electrician. Not so much that the test it's self is too difficult, but the logistics of traveling across country, scheduling a test, taking the test and then securing a job, in a market where jobs won't and don't wait around is problematic.
> 
> I was outta state this summer and had to get licensed for the job. Money well spent I suppose. Except now I have a license in a state I_ may _never return too.
> 
> I guess if I were forced to choose, I would choose a licensing requirement but I would like to see some more reciprocity among the states.
> 
> Here's an example of how licensing can get out of control. Like I already explained, we don't have state wide licensing and locally it is only required for the EC to have. (Things are different through out the state) Each municipality is different. Here most contractors have anywhere from 3-5 licenses just to contract work in our locals jurisdiction and the neighboring locals too. Seems a bit crazy to me.
> 
> Also, for some reason there seems to be a thought among the lawmakers that Solar for some reason isn't an electrical instillation. We had to fight tooth and nail to enforce the licensing requirements for EC's when it came to Solar here in my area. When the credits and government incentives came out, every cockroach with a contractors license became over night "solar experts". Most of them where janitors and handymen who were finishing basements just a month earlier.
> 
> So Bob, do you support a more regulated and government controlled market place and endorse licensing to perform a service? OR do you take a more conservative, open market approach and support freedom of the customers choice and let the reputation of the entity offering a service be the deciding factor in a bid win?
> 
> I'm curious.


Come on Bob???? You were just reading this. Tell us. Are you a liberal scumbag or a raging hemorrhoid they call a Conservative????? 

Which one is it? Inquiring minds would like to know. :laughing:


----------



## big2bird

I think he said he was a shoe salesman.:laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

big2bird said:


> I think he said he was a shoe salesman.:laughing:


Well, does he support licensing for shoe salesmen? Or does he support a more open market approach. Surely we must protect all the women of the world from an untrained shoe horn.


----------



## big2bird

slickvic277 said:


> Our local has lobbied hard for a state wide licensing requirement for electricians but has been road blocked by the ABC, IECA and the COC for a long time now. The open shop doesn't want licensing for there employees. I wonder why????


I dunno. That's a toughy.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## big2bird

slickvic277 said:


> Well, does he support licensing for shoe salesmen? Or does he support a more open market approach. Surely we must protect all the women of the world from an untrained shoe horn.


I told a friend, an engineer, that electricians have to be licensed, and rocket scientists do not.
He told me that put me somewhat higher than tatoo artist and beautician.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

big2bird said:


> I dunno. That's a toughy.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I am still waiting for the shoe salesman to respond.


----------



## slickvic277

big2bird said:


> I told a friend, an engineer, that electricians have to be licensed, and rocket scientists do not.
> He told me that put me somewhat higher than tatoo artist and beautician.:laughing::laughing:


I think Rocket Scientist have a higher unemployment rate right now too. 
****, maybe licensing isn't hurting us!


----------



## big2bird

slickvic277 said:


> I think Rocket Scientist have a higher unemployment rate right now too.
> ****, maybe licensing isn't hurting us!


Nope. My dog is licensed, and I have him employed full time.:laughing:


----------



## BBQ

slickvic277 said:


> I am still waiting for the shoe salesman to respond.


Sorry, there is a shoe emergency, a 300 pounder broke a heel and I have to go meet the material handler to lug her out of the way.


I will be back much later. :thumbsup:


----------



## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Sorry, there is a shoe emergency, a 300 pounder broke a heel and I have to go meet the material handler to lug her out of the way.
> 
> 
> I will be back much later. :thumbsup:


Fair enough. I have to struggle thu some double time tonight myself.


----------



## slickvic277

BBQ said:


> Sorry, there is a shoe emergency, a 300 pounder broke a heel and I have to go meet the material handler to lug her out of the way.
> 
> 
> I will be back much later. :thumbsup:


Good luck. I bet an unlicensed hack put her in a heel rated for only 225lbs but charged for the 300lb rated heel.  Damn trunk slammers.


----------



## big2bird

slickvic277 said:


> Good luck. I bet an unlicensed hack put her in a heel rated for only 225lbs but charged for the 300lb rated heel.  Damn trunk slammers.


Maybe she was derated.:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

slickvic277 said:


> Good luck. I bet an unlicensed hack put her in a heel rated for only 225lbs but charged for the 300lb rated heel.  Damn trunk slammers.


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Brother Noah1

BBQ said:


> Glad it is not like that here. Here a license is required to perform electrical work unless you are working directly for a utility doing things that the NEC does not apply to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you are advocating that the want for a job to be done is reason enough to use under-qualified help and screw over those that took the time to get their license.


What I advocate and make sacrifices for are, working conditions that are safe, fair pay for a fair day of work.So we can spend more quality time with our family's. That is for all working class not just union workers! What little bit I am aware of through my hours of scouring the web, is that unlike what was posted about no work in So-Cal the next 5-7 years there will be a boom of employment opportunities, to the point where contractors will be forced to make adjustments(no ah I am not saying I am anti nor pro) just that there is work available, most of which has a high scale and or package! Hey if you are tired of roping those residential firetraps for pennies on the dollar load up the truck and head to Beverly! I am sure all one has to do is ask the right Brother or Sister for a helping hand and you will be led in the right direction.After all I wish to repeat again I think this thread was where the union work is about???


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## 360max

Brother Noah said:


> Although I do read up on issues that effect the unions well being, I have not found the time to dwell on one particular BM's finances in my efforts to better our union. By your post it would make me believe you are accusing local 11's BM of unethical business dealings? My basic knowledge of the solar farms in locals 11,440,428, and 639 that are hiring unlicensed Journeymen is any entity that receives Federal funds for construction of electrical generation, does not have to require state license.With all the work that already has had federal money appropriated *there should be a need for several thousand more licensed JW's that the state of California does not have *at this post.





BBQ said:


> Glad it is not like that here. Here a license is required to perform electrical work unless you are working directly for a utility doing things that the NEC does not apply to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It seems you are advocating *that the want for a job to be done is reason enough* to use under-qualified help and screw over those that took the time to get their license.*




...after reading Noah's statement, how do you come to that conclusion Cletis?:whistling2:


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## fatz14

If your going to work in an open shop there is a practice called "salting" !!!!!


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## jimmy21

anywhere in the country a walk through or going to be soon?


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## John Valdes

chicken steve said:


> truer words are seldom posted LR
> 
> i've had the pleasure of working with old ibew salts
> 
> you folks are good sparky's, can't take that away from you
> 
> your history of setting standards speaks for itself, and is the priveledge of any of us in the field
> 
> it's just this internal system i keep hearing about that seems so detrimental
> 
> ~CS~


I can't figure out why I like you, but I do! :laughing:


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## Brother Noah1

jimmy21 said:


> anywhere in the country a walk through or going to be soon?


Not a walk through but 440 and 47 (they are in the same building) 440 has 2 solar projects and 47 has been putting jw's out on book 3. Both are in the high $40's and real good packages. I know in the north east there is activity caused by the horrible storm and maybe check 16,369 and around that area.


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## jimmy21

im in a pretty wierd situation. I moved with the intent of switching locals. I need 1500 hours to sign book 1. I got about 1350. Work isn't going book 2 anymore so im stuck in a catch 22. Can't work because im book 2 and can't get book 1 without working. Im starving out on book 2 and i dont want to travel because i need to get those hours and don't want to lose my place on the books. I talked to the organizer today and it sounds like hes going to be able to get me out on some salt work to get my remaining hours.


if he can't swing something for me i might have to go travel and hope to come back this summer. When work is going book 2 again


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## 0volt

Who did you vote for, we just had an election?

Our infrastructure, power grid, bridges around the country need repairs and replacement, not to mention schools need to be built and remodeled.

Other countries have better cell phone technology, faster internet speed and high speed trains.

Goggle Ford, GM and Chrysler in Europe and they have turbo diesels and gasoline engines getting 40 to 60 mpg. If they are really concerned about creating jobs in the US with the price of fuel; why are these engines not available in the U.S.? If they were made here jobs would be created for the retooling and increased sales.

I am so glad our tax money is going to many other countries so they can have better schools, infrastructure and healthcare.


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## uconduit

...meanwhile, back on earth...


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## 360max

0volt said:


> Who did you vote for, we just had an election?
> 
> Our infrastructure, power grid, bridges around the country need repairs and replacement, not to mention schools need to be built and remodeled.
> 
> Other countries have better cell phone technology, faster internet speed and high speed trains.
> 
> Goggle Ford, GM and Chrysler in Europe and they have turbo diesels and gasoline engines getting 40 to 60 mpg. If they are really concerned about creating jobs in the US with the price of fuel; *why are these engines not available in the U.S.?* If they were made here jobs would be created for the retooling and increased sales.
> 
> I am so glad our tax money is going to many other countries so they can have better schools, infrastructure and healthcare.


We have higher pollution control standards and higher safety standards (that must add to the weight of a vehicle) than in Europe.


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## 0volt

360max said:


> We have higher pollution control standards and higher safety standards (that must add to the weight of a vehicle) than in Europe.


 

Then how are they selling Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Saab, BMW ect. In the U.S?

Click on link for one example of clean gasoline & diesel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKYACTIV

*You didn’t mention anything about creating jobs in the U.S. by rebuilding America!*

Do you really think the U.S. can’t build higher mpg vehicles? We have been doing space travel for over 50 years and once in space these large ships and platforms are powered by small fuel cells.


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## 360max

0volt said:


> *Then how are they selling Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Saab, BMW ect. In the U.S?*
> 
> they can sell foreign cars here, but those cars must meet our standards (Honda and others are even built here)


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## 0volt

360max said:


> 0volt said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Then how are they selling Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Saab, BMW ect. In the U.S?*
> 
> they can sell foreign cars here, but those cars must meet our standards (Honda and others are even built here)
> 
> 
> 
> As car companies are being globalized around the world to compete with the global economy, the standards in foreign countries are becoming more universal.
Click to expand...


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## uconduit

Why does every post in "union topics" seems to attract union-bashers? How about 2 more categories, "non-union topics," and "union vs non-union topics". 

We're all pawns to some extent of powerful people and interests. The non-union argument needs to invest a lot more into propaganda because it's harder to convince someone to work for inferior wages and conditions. People actually get paid to go on forums to spread misinformation and I wonder sometimes if I'm talking to a real person or "spy".


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## 0volt

uconduit said:


> Why does every post in "union topics" seems to attract union-bashers? How about 2 more categories, "non-union topics," and "union vs non-union topics".
> 
> We're all pawns to some extent of powerful people and interests. The non-union argument needs to invest a lot more into propaganda because it's harder to convince someone to work for inferior wages and conditions. People actually get paid to go on forums to spread misinformation and I wonder sometimes if I'm talking to a real person or "spy".


How does investing into America rebuilding our infrastructure, power grid, bridges, schools, improving transit; updating our cell phone and internet technology equate to union bashing?

I completed an IBEW apprenticeship. I am very irritated that local, state and federal government are just hiring contractors based on price only and not quality. Inspections are not really inspections any more this combined with cheap price the quality of workmanship is lacking.

Over all society sees construction workers as unskilled labor and anyone can do it; what they do not understand the true definition of a skilled tradesman/Journeyman is one who has completed an accredited apprenticeship.

Just think of how many Union jobs could be created if we started investing in America again!


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## electricalwiz

0volt said:


> How does investing into America rebuilding our infrastructure, power grid, bridges, schools, improving transit; updating our cell phone and internet technology equate to union bashing?
> 
> I completed an IBEW apprenticeship. I am very irritated that local, state and federal government are just hiring contractors based on price only and not quality. Inspections are not really inspections any more this combined with cheap price the quality of workmanship is lacking.
> 
> Over all society sees construction workers as unskilled labor and anyone can do it; what they do not understand the true definition of a skilled tradesman/Journeyman is one who has completed an accredited apprenticeship.
> 
> Just think of how many Union jobs could be created if we started investing in America again!


Where do you plan on getting all this money from to do all this work


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## RUSSIAN

332 is close to a walk, it took me a week to get out the week before Christmas.


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## 0volt

electricalwiz said:


> Where do you plan on getting all this money from to do all this work


Roosevelt did it with the “New Deal”

Start investing in the U.S. not abroad. Give less tax dollars to foreign countries. Use union organized skilled tradesman.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-10-27/opinions/35280516_1_pension-funds-infrastructure-projects-fewer-funds


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## Zog

0volt said:


> Roosevelt did it with the “New Deal”
> 
> Start investing in the U.S. not abroad. Give less tax dollars to foreign countries. Use union organized skilled tradesman.


 
Yep, too bad we re-elected the worst possible guy to follow that plan. Let's focus on immigration reform shall we?


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## BananaSeeds

I have given up hope that the human race will progress.

Too much ignorance, too much apathy.

Join me fiddling, while rome burns.


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## electricalwiz

0volt said:


> Roosevelt did it with the “New Deal”
> 
> Start investing in the U.S. not abroad. Give less tax dollars to foreign countries. Use union organized skilled tradesman.
> 
> http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-10-27/opinions/35280516_1_pension-funds-infrastructure-projects-fewer-funds


Roosevelt is a bad example and we got a Raw Deal, we are still paying for Roosevelt decisions and will continue to. 
Even Roosevelt knew public unions were a bad idea
I am with you on less money in foreig aid
But why only use union workers
I think the goverment credit card is alost maxed out, then we will rely on Bernanke more which will cause more inflation
Sorry to say, we are in trouble as a nation


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## Bearufisr

Check out 611


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## Tn1orange

I use to think union's were an evil monster, until my position was restructured and I was let go from 16yrs in the healthcare profession. I live in a right to work state and an employer can cut you loose at anytime and you have no backing. I just applied for the apprenticeship and waiting to test. My father is part of the United paper workers, and they have supported him and his fellow brothers in ways I can't even start to explain.


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## Loose Neutral

Don't be fooled, if your working union electrical construction you can be let go just as easy. Most agreements give the contractor right to refusal.


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## chris856

Loose Neutral said:


> Don't be fooled, if your working union electrical construction you can be let go just as easy. Most agreements give the contractor right to refusal.


 True, but you don't have to take a massive paycut and lose your benefits when you take the next job.


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## uconduit

As far as I know most locals have it to where the administration of benefits is handled by the local union hall and not the employer. No re-enrollment of healthcare, or dealing with a 401k every single time you get another job.


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## Loose Neutral

chris856 said:


> True, but you don't have to take a massive paycut and lose your benefits when you take the next job.


That's the beauty of having the ticket in your pocket.


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## Loose Neutral

uconduit said:


> As far as I know most locals have it to where the administration of benefits is handled by the local union hall and not the employer. No re-enrollment of healthcare, or dealing with a 401k every single time you get another job.


Most are handled by an benefit administrator and that fund will be watched by an equal number of labor trustees and management trustees.


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## uconduit

Loose Neutral said:


> Most are handled by an benefit administrator and that fund will be watched by an equal number of labor trustees and management trustees.


Benefit administrators are simply agents of the LU. Some administrators actually don't do a good enough job at paying the doctors, responding to problems, and whatever else benefit administrators are supposed to do and are their services are terminated, others do a great job and may administer the fringe benefits of several LUs. I've even had papers sent to me with the wrong letterhead one time, I think it was the Operating Engineers.. (Followed by an apology letter IIRC) In any case a third party administration service doesn't have supremacy over the local. So let's just say that the LU and its agents administer benefits.

For non-Unionized electricians, their benefits (if any) are handled through either their employer, themselves, or some combination thereof. So if they work for several different companies over the course of a few years they may have several 401k accounts (I'm thinking), they have lot's of paperwork from having to re-enroll into new health care systems, sometimes even changing their doctors. And I think that the worst part of it is is that they may not even have benefits for a time period after being hired, essentially "forfeiting" that part of their compensation.


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## Loose Neutral

[ So let's just say that the LU and its agents administer benefits.

Like I said.


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## drumnut08

Tn1orange said:


> I use to think union's were an evil monster, until my position was restructured and I was let go from 16yrs in the healthcare profession. I live in a right to work state and an employer can cut you loose at anytime and you have no backing. I just applied for the apprenticeship and waiting to test. My father is part of the United paper workers, and they have supported him and his fellow brothers in ways I can't even start to explain.


Don't be fooled by this ! The union contractor you work for ( for how ever many years ) , can also let you go when work dries up , or he feels like downsizing . If and when this happens , chances are , you're not going right back out to work for another contractor . It depends on how the workload is in the local you belong to . If its slow ( like most of the country now ) and there's 200+ guys ahead of you on the out of work list , you're not going back to work for a long time ! You will get a call a d they will find you a job , but it's not a next day thing in this current economy . You can travel to where the work is , collect unemployment ( until that runs out ) , or get a non - electrical job until you get a call back to work . Years ago , you could write your own ticket , a d layoffs lasted as long as you wanted them to . These are different times . There's a little security , but not like you think .


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## chicken steve

STUDY: TWO-THIRDS OF U.S. JOBS UNDER 'RECOVERY' WENT TO IMMIGRANTS

~CS~


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## eejack

chicken steve said:


> STUDY: TWO-THIRDS OF U.S. JOBS UNDER 'RECOVERY' WENT TO IMMIGRANTS
> 
> ~CS~


breitbart link - don't bother clicking as it is fabricated.

srsly chickensteve, I don't know why I bother taking you off of ignore as I am disappointed every time.

Plonk.


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## sparky970

Local 48 have 35 calls for tomorrow. Intel jobs are ramping up


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## Switched

Thread jack here, by a non-union guy!

Glad to say that after about 4-5 months my BIL is back to work! Union Sheet Metal worker. He is now on at the 49ers new stadium!:thumbsup:

Whether you are union or not, I just keep hoping that we are all to busy working to post here!.....or not!:thumbsup:


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