# The elevator shaft automatic fire sprinkler war!



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Sounds a lot like a couple of big-shots wanting to have things their way with no regard to actual safety........sort of like 3rd grade recess...........


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

The problem we have is that a fire inspector can take a 2-week course and cause all kinds of problems for PE


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

hornetd said:


> requirement that an indicator light be installed in each car which would backlight the outline of a traditional firefighters helmet. That would warn that the timer had started which would energize the shunt trip. I don't remember what the timer was to be set for. This would allegedly provide people with enough time to exit the car and avoid entrapment. No instruction sign was required by the language of that addition of the Safety Code For Elevators And Escalators. Firefighters could be trained to keep a careful watch on the trip warning light and react appropriately but with no instructions the general public wouldn't have any idea what the light meant.


Around here there is no timer. The smoke in the shaft sends the elevator to the primary or secondary recall floor. Then the elevator is disabled and the hat flashes. The public doesn’t need to know what a flashing hat means because the elevator is disabled. A fireman can override the elevator, but does so at his own risk, especially if the hat is flashing. While there are several smoke detectors that will send the elevator to recall, only the one in the shaft turns on the flashing hat. That would be the pre-action. Next is the heat which sets off the shunt trip.

Around here sprinklers are only required in the shaft if there is hydraulic fluid, or non-fire rated traction belts. It’s cheaper to sprinkle the elevator than it is to get fire rated traction belts.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Interesting read. Thanks for that. 

Now I know what the pre action panel does, I have one to wire at the job I'm on...


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

HertzHound said:


> Around here there is no timer. The smoke in the shaft sends the elevator to the primary or secondary recall floor. Then the elevator is disabled and the hat flashes. The public doesn’t need to know what a flashing hat means because the elevator is disabled. A fireman can override the elevator, but does so at his own risk, especially if the hat is flashing. While there are several smoke detectors that will send the elevator to recall, only the one in the shaft turns on the flashing hat. That would be the pre-action. Next is the heat which sets off the shunt trip.
> 
> Around here sprinklers are only required in the shaft if there is hydraulic fluid, or non-fire rated traction belts. It’s cheaper to sprinkle the elevator than it is to get fire rated traction belts.


I wasn't writing about the present requirements for the integration of elevator and automatic fire sprinkler controls. I cannot follow why they would have integrated them in the way your describe but that is not germane to what I was writing about. 

I was only trying to highlight the dangers of the elevators built under permits drawn in the 7+ years the dispute was ongoing. All of the elevators built under those codes are death traps. None of them have the kind of integration that you are describing. 

Elevators built during the first cycle of the Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators, applied during the period I describe, have no warning that the elevator will loose all motive power if the heat of a fire enters the elevator shaft. I do mean none. Once the set point of the heat detector at the top of the shaft is exceeded the shunt trip solenoid coil built into the circuit breaker that protects the feeder to the elevator drive motors or motor generators opens the breaker. That deprives the elevator's machinery of ALL motive power. The Elevator stops dead in more ways than one. The controls cannot make it go anywhere because the power to the drive equipment has been cut off. It does not matter were it is in the shaft or whether it is occupied or not. As I mentioned previously many single set point heat detectors are one time use. The only way to reset the breaker and restore motive power when the shunt is controlled by a single use detector would be to cut the wires which carry the shunted breaker output to the solenoid trip coil inside the breaker's case. That would require an intimate knowledge of how the circuit was designed and how it was actually built.

The following 3 year cycle the only thing that changed was that a delay prior to the loss of power and an indicator in the cab of each elevator about to be affected was added to the Elevator Code. That additional requirement does not provide any elevator control such as cab return to a primary or alternate building exit floor. It only allows people that somehow have learned about the danger to take escape actions when the warning indicator activates before trip coil is energized to open the breaker. No instructions or warning about the hazard was posted in the elevator cabs. 

That makes a period of about 7 years during which elevators which are truly an immediate danger of loss of life to the users were built. Because there is no way to compel the correction of those dangers they'll be around as long as the buildings they are part of continue to stand unless someone discovers a way to make the corrective work a part of the legally required periodic maintenance and thus not a retroactive enactment which will not survive constitutional review. 

Tom Horne


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## GrayHair (Jan 14, 2013)

Thaks Tom. I wondered what would be the final outcome of that, even after retiring. Never "puckered" while riding an elevator until that stuff started.


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