# Replace device requires arc fault?????



## mgmac (Jan 3, 2009)

Had a small fire job. Re-wired affected area. Arc fault protected. Installed smokes throughout home...Arc Fault protected because of lengthening circuit. 
Painters oversprayed some devices.... Devices replaced ONLY... Inspector is requiring to arc fault.... am I missing something.... We are going to do it to satisfy... But just replacement of device.... ?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

No. AFCI applies to new wiring/circuits.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Wait to see what some of the US guys say.
I've heard that NEC requires it, even with just a device change. Not sure if that's with all areas, or just some AHJs down there.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Yes, sorry I don't speak for the NEC.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

They don't make us install afis out here for just a device. It can be a little grey though, unfortunately. For large scale rewiring they would though- new circuits would get afi in the required areas- for sure. I've only done residential for a couple years though. Just my experience...


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

it is under Receptacles in the NEC. 406.4.D. Very few people follow it. I think inspectors enforce it when they want to bust on people.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> it is under Receptacles in the NEC. 406.4.D. Very few people follow it. I think inspectors enforce it when they want to bust on people.


Yeah it can be a grey area. For sure if a new circuit is being put in they'll require it- i think the op was asking about simply changing a device. It's like: customer calls you in to replace a bad switch. Are you going to verify all bonding throughout the place, test the garage gfis, then measure the distance from outlet to a/c unit, then verify that the wiring to the lamp post is uf, etc...? No. We're gonna change the switch, check a few other things/ change a couple hard to reach light bulbs since we're there anyway, and move on. I completely get why we want afis, but honestly, i believe the technology needs much improvement before I'll preach it.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I think the reason was due to the fire. The inspector probably felt that it would be a good idea to safeguard against it in the future. 
Sometimes it's better to just go with the flow and not argue with the AHJ especially if he will be inspecting future projects.
Installing an Ark Fault Breaker would not make the system less safe so it seems reasonable. 
If the inspector was to ask for something that was unsafe or unreasonable then it would be worth arguing about.
I think you did the right thing in this case.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm in the other boat. I always ask for a code reference. In the OP's case, with regards to existing outlets, replacing a receptacle is maintaining an approved installation. 



kb1jb1 said:


> it is under Receptacles in the NEC. 406.4.D. Very few people follow it. I think inspectors enforce it when they want to bust on people.


If you don't mind, and you have a moment, could you post the pertinent wording of that article? Just curious.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I'm in the other boat. I always ask for a code reference. In the OP's case, with regards to existing outlets, replacing a receptacle is maintaining an approved installation.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't mind, and you have a moment, could you post the pertinent wording of that article? Just curious.


I have to figure it out. I do not have 2017 NEC in PDF. I guess I have to scan it rather than paraphrase it..
It is 406.4.D and D1.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Here you go @joe-nwt 

406.4. 
(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable. Arc-fault circuit-interrupter type and ground-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacles shall be installed in a readily accessible loca‐ tion.

(D)(4)


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Thanks for that. Any idea of the locations specified in 210.12 (A) or (B) are?


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> Thanks for that. Any idea of the locations specified in 210.12 (A) or (B) are?


Basically, livable square footage of a dwelling with the exception of bathrooms.


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

mgmac said:


> Had a small fire job. Re-wired affected area. Arc fault protected. Installed smokes throughout home...Arc Fault protected because of lengthening circuit.
> Painters oversprayed some devices.... Devices replaced ONLY... Inspector is requiring to arc fault.... am I missing something.... We are going to do it to satisfy... But just replacement of device.... ?


The way things are going AFCI will be required on every curcuit, with the GFCI locations being combos. Just look at the jump from the 2017 NEC to the 2020.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

ohm it hertz said:


> Basically, livable square footage of a dwelling with the exception of bathrooms.


Thanks. Makes you wonder though.


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

This is timely for me. I just re-deviced a whole home and the inspection is tomorrow. I did not add AFCI protection to anything other than one new receptacle that was added. After reading through this thread, my anxiety kicked in a bit, lol. So I called the inspector. He said AFCI not required for replacement devices, only for new devices. Whew! 

However, when I re-read the code (and this article), by rights, I guess my install technically should be failed and AFCI protection should be required. I've always made my decision to add AFCI based on the exception in 210.12(D). Apparently I've been wrong this whole time....and it won't be the last time for sure.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

funkking said:


> This is timely for me. I just re-deviced a whole home and the inspection is tomorrow. I did not add AFCI protection to anything other than one new receptacle that was added. After reading through this thread, my anxiety kicked in a bit, lol. So I called the inspector. He said AFCI not required for replacement devices, only for new devices. Whew!
> 
> However, when I re-read the code (and this article), by rights, I guess my install technically should be failed and AFCI protection should be required. I've always made my decision to add AFCI based on the exception in 210.12(D). Apparently I've been wrong this whole time....and it won't be the last time for sure.


From my observations, inspectors will bust on you for this if they want to give you a hard time. Around here there are many house flippers that do their own electrical work or have their laborers change out the devices and sell it as a newly renovated house. Lipstick on a pig.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

funkking said:


> This is timely for me. I just re-deviced a whole home and the inspection is tomorrow. I did not add AFCI protection to anything other than one new receptacle that was added. After reading through this thread, my anxiety kicked in a bit, lol. So I called the inspector. He said AFCI not required for replacement devices, only for new devices. Whew!
> 
> However, when I re-read the code (and this article), by rights, I guess my install technically should be failed and AFCI protection should be required. I've always made my decision to add AFCI based on the exception in 210.12(D). Apparently I've been wrong this whole time....and it won't be the last time for sure.


You pull a permit to change devices?


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> You pull a permit to change devices?


Not usually, but in this case I also added some baseboard heating and a new outlet to a bathroom.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

funkking said:


> Not usually, but in this case I also added some baseboard heating and a new outlet to a bathroom.


Baseboard electric heat? Are there any wall receptacles above the baseboard?


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Baseboard electric heat? Are there any wall receptacles above the baseboard?


No, there are not.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Baseboard electric heat? Are there any wall receptacles above the baseboard?


In a bathroom?


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> In a bathroom?


You'd be surprised. I once found not one but two receptacles next to and across from a toilet. Thankfully, all of it was gutted with the rest of the pastel bathroom I found them in.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Have any of you seen the article in ECM magazine with the panel in the wall of the bathtub enclosure smack in the middle of the long side? 

That is almost as good as the receptacle installed in a liquid soap bottle ended extension cord so it would float, with the cord for an electric drill plugged into it, AND the user is on top of an aluminum A frame ladder with both sides in the pool water. That was also in a country were the building wiring is all 220 volts to ground. It simply must have been a double insulated tool in very good condition or the user would have died the first time he depressed the switch. 

-- 
Tom Horne

"So John Henry say to the Shaker, now Shaker you bettah pray, cause I'm swinging 20 pounds from my hips on down if I miss twill be your buryin day. If I miss twill be your buryin day." 

John Henry was a rock driller for tunnel face blasting. They often worked at a crouch right against the face itself. The Driller struck the steel rod drill bit at a fast pace and the Shaker shook the bit between blows while pulling on a leather thong tied on to a T handle and wrapped around the bit to turn it and push the chips back out of the hole. Bits varied in length between 1&1/2 to 6 feet. In softer rock the bit could be even longer. It is a unique skill to be able to drill quickly without producing chips too large for the bit to push out thus jamming the bit and stopping the work. The team was paid by the foot of hole drilled.


----------



## hbiss (Mar 1, 2008)

joe-nwt said:


> You pull a permit to change devices?


I certainly wouldn't just for receptacle replacement. If other work is going to be inspected I would replace all the receptacles with non-TR receptacles and not say a word. If the inspector says something just say they have always been there. 

Say somebody has their house painted and want's all the old receptacles changed. What are you going to do, charge them 2K because you have to install AFCI protection? 

-Hal


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I simply repair the original installation back to it's approved configuration.


----------

