# swimming pool ground currents



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

myenergy said:


> I just finished the electrical install for a permanent swimming pool and the pool installers said they felt tingles while completing their part of the job. I am reading 5.4 volt from the pool water to the sand or ground around the pool also 5.4 volt from the coping to the ground. all the bonding is complete, 3' mesh and all sections tied back to it and to the pool equipment. the cement apron has not been poured. and when I completely remove power from the house and pool equipment at the meter. the 5.4v potential still remains. I have not felt and tingles or shock. and of course the inspector will not pass while this potential remains.
> there are two ground level trans formers from the utility and two main feeds from these within 25 feet of the pool. the xformers are about 100-200 feet away. the feeds to the pool are # 6 200' 240v 1 Phase at 30 amp. any suggestions on how to fix this.
> 
> Thanks Joe


At this point I would say to make sure that you have a good equipotential bonding system around the pool and tied to any metal parts of the pool. Whatever is causing the stray currents you have to give it a better way to go...around the pool, or to ground. If it doesn't go away with all of this being done, cut the water service ...let it drain and check again. A loose service neutral at the residence OR from the closest neighbor tied to the same service transformer could be causing it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is very possible a power company issue or an issue with the grounding in a house that may be attached to the trany and have common metallic water lines to the house in question.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

if there is a pony panel near the pool make sure the neutral to ground jumper is pulled and check the polarity on any 120 volt curcuts near the pool maybe a neutral and hot is switched.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

sparky105 said:


> if there is a pony panel near the pool make sure the neutral to ground jumper is pulled and check the polarity on any 120 volt curcuts near the pool maybe a neutral and hot is switched.


Sparky, the op is saying there is still voltage present when he shuts the power to the house & Pool at the meter.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

crap that's a new one to me. Sorry I miss read that part.


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

There is a sub panel that serves the pool equipment and the neutral is isolated from the ground at that panel that panel is 25 feet fro the edge of the pool. all the houses have thier own well. why does the neutral matter when the load is disconnected. I just dont understand the direct electrical relationship. nothing is connected


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

myenergy said:


> There is a sub panel that serves the pool equipment and the neutral is isolated from the ground at that panel that panel is 25 feet fro the edge of the pool. all the houses have thier own well. why does the neutral matter when the load is disconnected. I just dont understand the direct electrical relationship. nothing is connected


 
Well if you had community water with metallic pipes you could be getting stray voltage thru a neighbors home that isn't properly bonded or grounded.

So if this is a well then I believe there is a power company wire underground that is leaking current. Don't tell me everything is overhead.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

myenergy said:


> There is a sub panel that serves the pool equipment and the neutral is isolated from the ground at that panel that panel is 25 feet fro the edge of the pool. all the houses have thier own well. why does the neutral matter when the load is disconnected. I just dont understand the direct electrical relationship. nothing is connected


Just because YOUR power is disconnected doesn't mean you are totally not tied to stray voltages... the neutral is still entwined, unbroken through the system via your service, possibly your neighbors service and the fact that the neutral is grounded at the secondary at the pole or vault. Loose neutrals can allow stray currents to flow on anything that you bond to your neutral at your disconnect...and stray currents cause stray voltages.


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

I crossed the path of two xfromer feeds when I trenched for this one. I really apprieciate all the input on this. I dont think I have any loose neutrals on my end but I will check.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

myenergy said:


> I crossed the path of two xfromer feeds when I trenched for this one. I really apprieciate all the input on this. I dont think I have any loose neutrals on my end but I will check.


It may not be anything that you did incorrectly. Check the service disconnect and the lug securing the neutral...be careful, as always. Have your helper there to assist and learn.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

myenergy said:


> I crossed the path of two xfromer feeds when I trenched for this one. I really apprieciate all the input on this. I dont think I have any loose neutrals on my end but I will check.


 
You may have cut into one of the transformer feeds. That could explain it. What I don't get is why you can feel it if the EPB system is installed properly.


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## Joe Mush (May 17, 2008)

Have you picked up the coping and the pool water with the bonding wire?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Joe Mush said:


> Have you picked up the coping and the pool water with the bonding wire?


 
Joe that really has nothing to do with his problem, IMO


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You may have cut into one of the transformer feeds. That could explain it. What I don't get is why you can feel it if the EPB system is installed properly.


 I carefully hand dug over the xformer feeds.
so what you are saying is I will still get readings to ground if the EPB is installed correctly. I just wont get shocked.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

myenergy said:


> I carefully hand dug over the xformer feeds.
> so what you are saying is I will still get readings to ground if the EPB is installed correctly. I just wont get shocked.


 
I am not sure where you are taking the reading. I would think if everything was the same potential you should not get a shock but if you are getting a reading between two metal parts that are part of the EPB then I would think you should not get a reading. It would be as if you were getting a reading from one long piece of wire that is just lying in the ground. 

It may not be possible to get everything at the same potential. This I am not sure of. Actually I am not sure of lots of things because this is not my forte.


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

the water the coping and the grid are all at 0 volts when they pour the apron that will set all surfaces directly related to the pool at equil potential. is that right ? the fact that I am reading volts to ground / sand around the pool right now means nothing. am I correct in this line of reason?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

myenergy said:


> the water the coping and the grid are all at 0 volts when they pour the apron that will set all surfaces directly related to the pool at equil potential. is that right ? the fact that I am reading volts to ground / sand around the pool right now means nothing. am I correct in this line of reason?


No, not necessessarily. Have you bonded all the sections of wire mesh to each other and not reliant on the concrete to make the connection?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if it were my job, I would cut the main and lift all the load side conductors, including the neutral and the bonding jumper, then check for the stray voltage/current. If it still exists, this would satisfy me that it was a poco problem, and I would write a letter to poco as well as have the homeowner write one, too, certified to the poco. 

If that solved the problem, as others have said, you could have stray current coming into the property on the water lines, or on the neutral returning current to source from a neighbors loose neutral, poco problem, or whatever. 

But the key, as I see it, is trying to find the source (as I'm sure you are aware). 

this, of course, is just the advice of a professional tiddley wink player.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

wildleg said:


> if it were my job, I would cut the main and lift all the load side conductors, including the neutral and the bonding jumper, then check for the stray voltage/current. If it still exists, this would satisfy me that it was a poco problem, and I would write a letter to poco as well as have the homeowner write one, too, certified to the poco.
> 
> If that solved the problem, as others have said, you could have stray current coming into the property on the water lines, or on the neutral returning current to source from a neighbors loose neutral, poco problem, or whatever.
> 
> ...


 If you do this be carefull of the neutral, as others have said it may be carying current. I would put an amp clamp on it before I lifted it.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

It really sounds like you are missing something in your bonding. are you getting voltage to other parts of the grid or just the dirt in that one spot?


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

Hey just wanted to update everybody on this. I called the utility and they had one of their enginners call me back. this guy is involved extensivly with Michigan States agricultural dept and he and that dept have been doing test on EPB. he asked me about how the grid was assembled as far as four point bonds to the coping and 3' of mesh on perimeter and if the grid was at 0 potential to the water I said that all this exsisted. and he said that once the apron or cement was poured that it would push that grid down into the earth and create an equil potential on that apron also. and that nuetral currents are very common and that this method was developed as a solution to this problem weather the currents are there at install or occur later.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

So is he going to look for the source of the problem or not?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So is he going to look for the source of the problem or not?


 Sounds like a no to me. Typical poco, They won't invest time and money into finding a problem on a system that still works.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I tried to follow all this but my question is does the voltage exist if the service entrance neutral is disconnected and power turned off? Is it possible the POCO has a bad connection to their neutral somewhere and the neighbor hood grounding is carrying some of the load back to the POCO transformer? I'm a bit foggy on how a 120/240 single phase POCO transformer works..


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## myenergy (Jan 25, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> Sounds like a no to me. Typical poco, They won't invest time and money into finding a problem on a system that still works.


 Originally they were supposed to write a work order and send a crew to look for the problem but this guy called instead. I asked him if they were still sending a crew and he said no as long as the bonding is correct there is no problem. I called the inspector told him all this and he did not like it but said he would inspect it and go from there. the POCO engineer offered to meet on site with the inspector and offered contact #. My only concern is pouring the apron and the problem remains. but I am faily confident it wont.

I just want the job done and safe. so I can move on. I have $%^ ^&*& to do. And $$$$$ to make. Thanks for all the input. this is a good site and a produtive tool.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> If you do this be carefull of the neutral, as others have said it may be carying current. I would put an amp clamp on it before I lifted it.


that's a good comment, and I'm glad you mentioned that. It applies to a ground as well. Always amp them before lifting.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

We have this problem alot of times. It will usually go away if you bury the bonding wire 4" to 6" deep in the dirt under the pool deck, before the pouring of the deck. I am not sure if this is required by the NEC,(too lazy to look it up) but our area AHJ (many cities and counties) make us do this, as they have for many years. When the bond wire is in direct contact with the earth, the stay currents that we experience dissappear. If the ground is really dry, there will still be small amounts of current, unless we dampen the ground.


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