# why are non union people not qualified?



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I don't know. Since non-union electricians have the majority market share, I'm not sure they'd know what they were talking about if they said that. I'd be surprised if any man, union or otherwise, said that a non-union electrician was unqualified. That would be absurd and silly.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:



They are wrong.


They use that as a sellling point to get work.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I really dont think that applies to all union members. I certainly don't think that way and I'm union. Most of my friends are non-union contractors and they dont think the opposite. I know where it stems from and it's just pure ignorance on behalf of those that think that way. 
PS, do yourself a favor and don't post controversial topics such as this one. I had enough of the bickering of both sides. Grow up and act like real a men!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm non-union and I'm highly unqualified.  :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I'm non-union and I'm highly unqualified.  :laughing:


Same here..:blink::blink::laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Well ma'am, I'm not not a gynecologist, but I'll take a look... :laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

This thread is Dildos.:laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

most non union shops have no formal training program so their is no way to actually track how they are trained and what knowledge has been passed on. Unless the non union guy takes it on himself he probably is going to be limited to what the guy he works with shows him.
with many non union shops all the guys no how to do the job but only one will know why they are doing it that way.I can teach you in a day how to nail on a box,drill a hole and pull a wire to it but it will take a little longer to teach you things like box fill, derating, cicuit ampacity......


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> most non union shops have no formal training program so their is no way to actually track how they are trained and what knowledge has been passed on. Unless the non union guy takes it on himself he probably is going to be limited to what the guy he works with shows him.
> with many non union shops all the guys no how to do the job but only one will know why they are doing it that way.I can teach you in a day how to nail on a box,drill a hole and pull a wire to it but it will take a little longer to teach you things like box fill, derating, cicuit ampacity......



I hope you are talking about your state .

Because that is not the way it is up here.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I hope you are talking about your state .
> 
> Because that is not the way it is up here.


 Do all the shops in Mass. have a formal training program?


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

I'll take an observation shot at it. 

In an earlier time, if you were union, you had obviously completed a 4 year apprenticship program. For "open shops" that wasn'talways the case.

These days, anyone with a couple of nickels, and ambition can go to school, military training, or do correspondence to cover theory, and basics. Lot of OJT happens too.

When each group understands the other a litle better,things get better. For the most part it reminds of a song from the sixties by Buffalo Springfield with the lines -

A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

That seems to be where we are in today's times.


Edit - Just proves what I just said! -

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f3/studying-electricity-23302/


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

:no:


Mr Rewire said:


> most non union shops have no formal training program so their is no way to actually track how they are trained and what knowledge has been passed on. Unless the non union guy takes it on himself he probably is going to be limited to what the guy he works with shows him.
> with many non union shops all the guys no how to do the job but only one will know why they are doing it that way.I can teach you in a day how to nail on a box,drill a hole and pull a wire to it but it will take a little longer to teach you things like box fill, derating, cicuit ampacity......


 :no:

:sleep1::sleep1:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Who said that union guys are qualified? :sleeping: :sleep1:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

tkb said:


> Who said that union guys are qualified? :sleeping: :sleep1:


Can't say that I've ever met one that I'd call unqualified, but many of them get stuck on a certain type of work for a lot of their career, so the hand's on isn't always there- but the knowledge is. People are people anyhow. Some guys are still dumb as a rock, despite top notch training. Other guys excel on their own, with little training and guidance.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


 I've been on both sides of the fence. There are qualified and not so qualified workers on both sides of the fence. I have to say that the union apprenticeships are the best that I've seen, but the non-unions shops have their own apprenticeship training and they're doing a decent job in training their apprentices. Some union electricains have a superior attitude toward non-union workers. They take on an antagonistic attitude toward the non-union workers, calling them rats and other derogatory names. They would turn down many non-union workers that were good workers for different reasons. Where do you think those non-union workers ended up? Over the last several decades non-union shops have gained much of the market share partly because of this, but mainly because they can bid lower.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

Rockyd said:


> I'll take an observation shot at it.
> 
> In an earlier time, if you were union, you had obviously completed a 4 year apprenticship program. For "open shops" that wasn'talways the case.
> 
> ...


I agree the training has gotten a lot better for non-union shops. I some cases the non-union members hustle more, work harder than the union members do, and visa-versa. One big draw-back with the union is you get stuck on the out of work list, and it's difficult to chose what type of work get. 80% of what you learn is on hands training. You don't get that if you don't work.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I had enough of the bickering of both sides.



No one is forcing you to follow the links or read the posts so man up and shut up. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Do all the shops in Mass. have a formal training program?


No one gets a license here without at least 600 hours of formal training. And you cannot work without having a license or be under the direct supervision of a license holder.

I would say most of the time that training is paid for by the apprentice. Some large shops up here provide the schooling either by just paying the tuition or providing it in house.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Do all the shops in Mass. have a formal training program?


In Massachusetts we have a license system,, so all aprentices must go to school and work for a licensed Electrician for at least 8,000 hours in the field.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Minnesota requires 8000 hours of experience to be able to take the state journeymans test. Reduced to 6000 hours if you go to a two year trade school for electrical. So, last time I checked, the union and nonunion electricians take the same state of minnesota tests for journeyman and master licenses. Upon passing these exams, we are required to take 16 hours of continuing education every two years.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

When I went through we had 800 hours classroom and 8000 ours OJT.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

BBQ said:


> No one gets a license here without at least 600 hours of formal training. And you cannot work without having a license or be under the direct supervision of a license holder.
> 
> I would say most of the time that training is paid for by the apprentice. Some large shops up here provide the schooling either by just paying the tuition or providing it in house.


 Is that 600 hours of classroom or a combination of classroom and OJT? Do you have to go to a certified class or can you go online?


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## jchabot2012 (Apr 20, 2011)

Local 1253 in Central Maine still has 800+ classroom hours and 8000 OJT hours. Some apprentices are not ready to top out and some are. I'm a 2nd year apprentice and have less than 500 OJT, because of the economy. I'll be lucky to get my Journeymans license in 6-7 years.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


I think it is a marketing ploy more than anything else. The IBEW ran commercials on local TV around here a few years ago that advised customers to ask to see IBEW membership proof from an electrician before letting them perform any work on your property saying, "It's the only way to be sure you are getting highly skilled quality service from your electrician." They are just fighting to keep their market share. In Indiana, there have been 8 attempts over the last 20 years to institute state-wide licensing for electricians like we have had for plumbers for the last 40 years. The IBEW lobbies heavily against it each time and always wins. They've got a bigger war chest than the unaffiliated when it comes to politics.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I don't know. Since non-union electricians have the majority market share, I'm not sure they'd know what they were talking about if they said that. I'd be surprised if any man, union or otherwise, said that a non-union electrician was unqualified. That would be absurd and silly.


That is a valid point. The union share of work has decreased dramatically, and, if I have read correctly, it is in the "teens" as a percentage...very low. What I don't understand is why, if that is a fact, the union salaries are the downfall of the country. It just does not add up.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

amptech said:


> I think it is a marketing ploy more than anything else. The IBEW ran commercials on local TV around here a few years ago that advised customers to ask to see IBEW membership proof from an electrician before letting them perform any work on your property saying, "It's the only way to be sure you are getting highly skilled quality service from your electrician." They are just fighting to keep their market share. In Indiana, there have been 8 attempts over the last 20 years to institute state-wide licensing for electricians like we have had for plumbers for the last 40 years. The IBEW lobbies heavily against it each time and always wins. They've got a bigger war chest than the unaffiliated when it comes to politics.


They tried that here about 6 years ago....... stated in radio & TV ads that only union electricians had 9000 hours of experience. The campaign lasted 2 days before it was removed for being false advertising.


I wonder what those union apprentices did for the first 4½ years of their careers.


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


To be honest with you the only time I ever hear this kind of BS is from non union guys, at my meetings, at the box, and on break with the guys I never hear this brought up. :laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

amptech said:


> I think it is a marketing ploy more than anything else. The IBEW ran commercials on local TV around here a few years ago that advised customers to ask to see IBEW membership proof from an electrician before letting them perform any work on your property saying, "It's the only way to be sure you are getting highly skilled quality service from your electrician." They are just fighting to keep their market share. In Indiana, there have been 8 attempts over the last 20 years to institute state-wide licensing for electricians like we have had for plumbers for the last 40 years. The IBEW lobbies heavily against it each time and always wins. They've got a bigger war chest than the unaffiliated when it comes to politics.


 
Pure marketing on the IBEW's part. They should be sued for false advertising. Desperate times call for desperate measures.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well i guess its how long you have been in the trade over the years yes ive heard that many times who said it union electricians and pipe fitters and mechanical contractors and its true . They did have better schooling 


Funny but years ago the union was better trained thats is a fact but over the years its turned around we have the same schools and in fact have more training today then the local .

We see a major change in America union labor!

Folks just dont want high dollar labor they want it done and were doing it bottom line were giving them the same project done . Any size project any type project anywhere so they can say what they want . This has been said for years nothing new 

And truthfully times and change this country is going thur now wait another ten years .


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> In Massachusetts we have a license system
> .


On Long Island we have a cashier.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> On Long Island we have a cashier.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


Cash and carry.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

amptech said:


> I think it is a marketing ploy more than anything else. The IBEW ran commercials on local TV around here a few years ago that advised customers to ask to see IBEW membership proof from an electrician before letting them perform any work on your property saying, "It's the only way to be sure you are getting highly skilled quality service from your electrician." They are just fighting to keep their market share. In Indiana, there have been 8 attempts over the last 20 years to institute state-wide licensing for electricians like we have had for plumbers for the last 40 years. The IBEW lobbies heavily against it each time and always wins. They've got a bigger war chest than the unaffiliated when it comes to politics.


I agree!!! Doesn't that suck!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## chris856 (Jun 12, 2009)

I did non-union schooling for a couple years and I recently started my apprenticeship and I can say that the union schooling is far better than what I went through.
The union makes available all the tools for someone to be a top notch electrician, but it is up to the electrician to make use of it. I have yet to go out in the field so I can't say for sure if the majority of the guys make use of it.
I can say for sure that there are some top notch non union guys but there are a lot of lazy idiots too.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

chris856 said:


> I did non-union schooling for a couple years and I recently started my apprenticeship and I can say that the union schooling is far better than what I went through.
> The union makes available all the tools for someone to be a top notch electrician, but it is up to the electrician to make use of it. I have yet to go out in the field so I can't say for sure if the majority of the guys make use of it.
> I can say for sure that there are some top notch non union guys but there are a lot of lazy idiots too.


 
The trade has a few lazy worthless people union and nonunion. It's up to you to make the most out of your education.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> most non union shops have no formal training program so their is no way to actually track how they are trained and what knowledge has been passed on. Unless the non union guy takes it on himself he probably is going to be limited to what the guy he works with shows him.
> with many non union shops all the guys no how to do the job but only one will know why they are doing it that way.I can teach you in a day how to nail on a box,drill a hole and pull a wire to it but it will take a little longer to teach you things like box fill, derating, cicuit ampacity......


 I call BS. What about the union guys that don't know any theory? 
I know some damn good electricians on both sides of the fence, But there are also dumba$$es on both sides.


BBQ said:


> No one gets a license here without at least 600 hours of formal training. And you cannot work without having a license or be under the direct supervision of a license holder.
> 
> I would say most of the time that training is paid for by the apprentice. Some large shops up here provide the schooling either by just paying the tuition or providing it in house.


 I am all for a statewide license, I've said this countless times. The licensing system that we have in place is a joke.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Let's add another issue to keep the thread lively -

I don't care if your union, or open shop, what would be your take on working union, if 50% of the book was SOJ (that's *S*olicit *O*wn *J*ob) where you can ask the contractor direct for work, and the other 50% came off the out of work list...creating opportunity for both contractor, and worker. I think the dynamic would be far better for the industry as a whole:thumbsup: Thoughts positive or negative - am curious.

I think it's a way overdue concept myself...

Just for the record - I'm union.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Rockyd said:


> Let's add another issue to keep the thread lively -
> 
> I don't care if your union, or open shop, what would be your take on working union, if 50% of the book was SOJ (that's *S*olicit *O*wn *J*ob) where you can ask the contractor direct for work, and the other 50% came off the out of work list...creating opportunity for both contractor, and worker. I think the dynamic would be far better for the industry as a whole:thumbsup: Thoughts positive or negative - am curious.
> 
> ...


You mean guys have to fend for their self and find their own job? That'll never work.:laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Rockyd said:


> Let's add another issue to keep the thread lively -
> 
> I don't care if your union, or open shop, what would be your take on working union, if 50% of the book was SOJ (that's *S*olicit *O*wn *J*ob) where you can ask the contractor direct for work, and the other 50% came off the out of work list...creating opportunity for both contractor, and worker. I think the dynamic would be far better for the industry as a whole:thumbsup: Thoughts positive or negative - am curious.
> 
> ...


Whats the point of begging a contractor for a job ? If a contractor has a need for a hand let them call the hall and get someone off the book preferably the guy who is next up. I think SOJ would put the older worker at a disadvantage i'm to old to kick the bottom rung off the ladder.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Whats the point of begging a contractor for a job ? If a contractor has a need for a hand let them call the hall and get someone off the book preferably the guy who is next up. I think SOJ would put the older worker at a disadvantage i'm to old to kick the bottom rung off the ladder.


Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


Lmfao!!

Sent from my iPhone using the ElectricianTalk Forum app


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

................................. 











brian john said:


> Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Whats the point of begging a contractor for a job ? If a contractor has a need for a hand let them call the hall and get someone off the book preferably the guy who is next up. I think SOJ would put the older worker at a disadvantage i'm to old to kick the bottom rung off the ladder.


That's why I'm saying one from the hall, one from anywhere, 50/50 on hiring. Old guys aren't as fast, pups aren't as smart.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


I*F* yo*u see K *ay *Y*ou *o*ughta *u*nwind:laughing:


Edit - you to 480, & Marc!!!:whistling2::laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I am unqualified because my tiny rat brain cannot comprehend the complexities of electrical work.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I am unqualified because my tiny rat brain cannot comprehend the complexities of electrical work.


It might help to work out. Us rats gotta stay strong!


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Up here union/non-union go thru the exact same apprenticeship and schooling. They even share the same classroom. 

SO, if you try to make the argument that union electricians are more qualified it really shows your intelligence level


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## moman (Apr 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> In Massachusetts we have a license system,, so all aprentices must go to school and work for a licensed Electrician for at least 8,000 hours in the field.


I wish it were mandatory everywhere.
:thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

moman said:


> I wish it were mandatory everywhere.
> :thumbsup:


I did not Know it was not till i went on the forums..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> On Long Island we have a cashier.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:



I hope they only have $100 bills..:thumbup::thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Mainly because the EC could end up hiring a good electrician, in lieu of getting someone from the bench. There was a time they may have gotten stuck with you.:whistling2::blink::laughing:


 I was a gang box baby :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Is that 600 hours of classroom or a combination of classroom and OJT? Do you have to go to a certified class or can you go online?


600 hours of classroom time.

No you cannot do it online, your body has to be in a accredited classroom.

You also have to have 8000 hours of on the job training over the course of four years, the class room time must coincide with the OJT.

So once you have 600 hours class time, and 8000 hours OJT you are qualified to sit for an all day test to see if you will get your J-man card.

In this state the above rules apply equally to union members or non-union members.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Do all the shops in Mass. have a formal training program?


Do all Union Electricians know how to calculate box fill, ampacity, and derating?

Training does not = knowledge does not = wisdom


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mdfriday said:


> Do all Union Electricians know how to calculate box fill, ampacity, and derating?
> 
> Training does not = knowledge does not = wisdom


I think most locals work hard at getting a good class room experience for the apprentices.


I cannot speak for everywhere, but typically the union program is very good for the class room portion. In addition they have transfers, so you work for different companies, this often, but not always, gives the apprentice a wide range of exposure to different aspects of the trade. In an open shop it is possible to do only one aspect of the trade your complete apprenticeship.

Though I do know apprentices that have transferred from company to company and end up doing the same type of work, especially at big companies. Last year we had a 3rd year apprentice that had only ever operated a ditch witch and a back hoe.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

mdfriday said:


> Do all Union Electricians know how to calculate box fill, ampacity, and derating?
> 
> Training does not = knowledge does not = wisdom


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

Most unions has excellent education opportuity, for both the apprentice, and journeyman upgrade classes. Our local's class time is 980 hours of classroom and 8000 OJT to test for your card. So if a person seeks training, yes he should be able to do all the "general jw skill sets".

Then there are others, that are slugs - and there's no difference between union, and open shop, everyone gets them. Some just shouldn't be electricians:whistling2:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> Some just shouldn't be electricians:whistling2:



We need more ditch diggers.:laughing::laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Rockyd said:


> Then there are others, that are slugs - and there's no difference between union, and open shop, everyone gets them. Some just shouldn't be electricians:whistling2:


That is in every profession.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> No one gets a license here without at least 600 hours of formal training. And you cannot work without having a license or be under the direct supervision of a license holder.



Six hundred? Really? We need a nine THOUSAND hour apprenticeship up here.

Edit: You meant class time. Well, up here the normal flow is to have 9000 hours, including 840 hours of in-class instruction.
However. You *can* challenge the ticket. If you can prove experience (at least 9000 hours of it) and you can convince an apprenticeship coordinator that you're 'worthy' then you can write the ticket without attending classes. This gets you a C of Q (Journeyman's license) but does *not* get you a C of A (proof of apprenticeship). Rarely does an employer ask for a C of A.
Additionally, there are exemption tests for each year of classes. When I was getting my millwright license I never sat a day in class. I wrote three exemption tests, one for each year of schooling, and by passing them all was allowed to write the C of Q. By going this route I still received my C of A. So I have both a journeyman's license and proof of apprenticeship for millwrighting despite having never attended a single day of classes.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> Six hundred? Really? We need a nine THOUSAND hour apprenticeship up here.


That's 600 schooling and 8000 in the field.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Rockyd said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...
> 
> Then there are others, that are slugs - and there's no difference between union, and open shop, everyone gets them. Some just shouldn't be electricians:whistling2:


Exactly what I meant. You hit the nail on the head.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

A union journeymans attitude in my area is "we learned it in school". They don't discuss code issues. Just put in whatever the boss wants. And they do think they are superior. Self delusion is all that is. The apprentices are fairly educated but once they make JW they quit studying. Non-union is about the same. Apprentices aren't as well educated but they both still get the job done. IE: go run that conduit or MC.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

who cares what a union guy thinks, or if your union who cares what a non union guy thinks, I only care what my client thinks.


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## nomad (Jul 27, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> A union journeymans attitude in my area is "we learned it in school". They don't discuss code issues. Just put in whatever the boss wants. And they do think they are superior. Self delusion is all that is. *The apprentices are fairly educated but once they make JW they quit studying.* Non-union is about the same. Apprentices aren't as well educated but they both still get the job done. IE: go run that conduit or MC.


 
I'm guilty of this and I've become complacent since becoming a JW, other than taking the required CEU classes to renew your license. It's coming to bite me in the rearend because we've recently moved up to AK, due to my wife's job, and now I'm having to take their state electrical exam (thanks to Wa State for dropping their reciprocal) and looking over practice questions and reading through the code book, I realize how much I've forgotten or failed to keep memorized, so perhaps it's a good thing I have to take the test and recognize I have gotten lazy over the years. It's not as simple as showing up to a jobsite, getting handed blueprints and getting the job done.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

I will admit that when I joined the Union I had a bad opinion of the non-union electricians. As it turns out I now realize I was wrong and we are all here in the end for the same reason. To put food on the table. There are good/bad Electricians Union/Non-Union. Whether you are a brother in the IBEW or just a non-union Electrician... cheers.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

do we all agree we hate plumbers:thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


Because the union thinks its the best thing since sliced bread and the only ones that should touch electricity. They also think that schooling/licensing is the most important thing and what makes an electrician. Sorry guys that believe this but you're wrong.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> do we all agree we hate plumbers:thumbup:


You know how they decide whos gonna be a plumber and a fitter? They put all the kids in a pile of crap. Then they screet a 2x4 across the top of the crap.... whoever sinks into the crap is a plumber.... whoever gets hit by the 2x4 becomes a plumber :thumbup: They really don't like it when you tell them this for some reason :whistling2:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Because the union thinks its the best thing since sliced bread and the only ones that should touch electricity. They also *think that schooling/licensing it the most important thing and what makes an electrician*. Sorry guys that believe this but you're wrong.


 And you don't believe that schooling and licensing makes an electrician???


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> And you don't believe that schooling and licensing makes an electrician???


 
You can be an electrician without either a license or schooling, you can't be an electrician with just a license and schooling.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> And you don't believe that schooling and licensing makes an electrician???


No, I most defiantly do not.


----------



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> And you don't believe that schooling and licensing makes an electrician???


nope, not in the least


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

brian john said:


> You can be an electrician without either a license or schooling, you can't be an electrician with just a license and schooling.


exactly, could not have said it any better


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> You can be an electrician without either a license or schooling, you can't be an electrician with just a license and schooling.


 No you can be a person who calls himself an electrician , I can learn everything I need to know from books.
Besides most areas require a license or you are not considered an electrician but an apprentice.Areas that require a license also require a set amount of hours actually preforming electrical work.
No school and no license= no electrician


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

EC around me hires day laborers to rough houses they have no training ,no knowledge of the code and no English. So according to you guys he can call himself Electrician at least for the day.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Sparky3 said:


> EC around me hires day laborers to rough houses they have no training ,no knowledge of the code and no English. So according to you guys he can call himself Electrician at least for the day.


 El electriciano:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Sparky3 said:


> EC around me hires day laborers to rough houses they have no training ,no knowledge of the code and no English. So according to you guys he can call himself Electrician at least for the day.


If a guy picks up garbage for a day, he can call himself a garbage man. That is just the way it is... if there is no code enforcement.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

Sparky3 said:


> EC around me hires day laborers to rough houses they have no training ,no knowledge of the code and no English. So according to you guys he can call himself Electrician at least for the day.


Not electrician, but maybe wireman.


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

K2500 said:


> Not electrician, but maybe wireman.


Your always going to be better no matter how mechanically gifted you are if you get formal training.


----------



## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

cthermond said:


> Your always going to be better no matter how mechanically gifted you are if you get formal training.


Perhaps better quicker, but not simply better.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

K2500 said:


> Not electrician, but maybe wireman.


 I always thought wireman was the better term when comparing (electrician vs wireman) A wireman is one who knows why hes doing what hes doing. An Electrician just knows what hes doing..... If that makes sense.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I always thought wireman was the better term when comparing (electrician vs wireman) A wireman is one who knows why hes doing what hes doing. An Electrician just knows what hes doing..... If that makes sense.


Not at all.
While I do distinguish between electrician and wireman, I generally hold electrician to be the term for the more competent.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> I can learn everything I need to know from books.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :no:



cthermond said:


> Your always going to be better no matter how mechanically gifted you are if you get formal training.


:no: 

I know quite a few formally trained electricians and they are totally useless. They know random theory crap but if you actually need them to work or solve a problem forget about it. 



al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I always thought wireman was the better term when comparing (electrician vs wireman) A wireman is one who knows why hes doing what hes doing. An Electrician just knows what hes doing..... If that makes sense.


I'm an electrician not a wireman and I know the what, why and how of everything I do.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cthermond said:


> Your always going to be better no matter how mechanically gifted you are if you get formal training.


I have NO formal training and electrician against electrician, I think I more than hold my own.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> No you can be a person who calls himself an electrician , I can learn everything I need to know from books.
> Besides most areas require a license or you are not considered an electrician but an apprentice.Areas that require a license also require a set amount of hours actually preforming electrical work.
> No school and no license= no electrician



Than a DIYer should be OK? They get the best Lowes and HD have to offer.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have NO formal training and electrician against electrician, I think I more than hold my own.


Every DIY feels that way.:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Every DIY feels that way.:laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:



I bought a _Simplified Wiring_ book the other day from HD just so I could put it on my desk. :laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> I have NO formal training and electrician against electrician, I think I more than hold my own.


 You can't tell me you never sat in a class, seminar or other form of "training" just because it was not a total program doesn't mean it wasn't formal training. I took a class to become a certified scaffold builder it wasn't part of a program but it was "training".I am EPA lead certified it too was a class but not a part of a formal program.I took a class fom AMP to become certified to terminate fiber optic it was a clas but not a formal program. I can add more but I think you have attended similar classes.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :no:


 so name something that can't be learned from a book :whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> so name something that can't be learned from a book :whistling2:


 
Humility??????


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> You can't tell me you never sat in a class, seminar or other form of "training" just because it was not a total program doesn't mean it wasn't formal training. .


 
Most of my knowledge is self taught and I was very fortunate to work with a knowledgeable tester and in the right place at the right time.

But no formal apprenticeship, which has been most of the discussion of what is necessary to become an electrician.

But I am all for everyone getting as much training as is available then more. I am currently attending college.

You'll never damage you brain with knowledge.

I also think, that schooling and a license, give workers a moral boost, that may improve their work quality (?) If only for a short period of time.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't know about unqualified but I can sniff out a union moonlighters work in a half of minute. Seems out here they run all #12 and use 1900 boxes on residential work.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Every DIY feels that way.:laughing:


You're cruel,Badger.I like it.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Humility??????


 Actually that can be learned from several passages from the bible Jesus washing the feet of the aposiles. I can learn know how to do something and still not do it.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Most of my knowledge is self taught and I was very fortunate to work with a knowledgeable tester and in the right place at the right time.
> 
> But no formal apprenticeship, which has been most of the discussion of what is necessary to become an electrician.
> 
> ...


 I never attended a formal apprentishipo either i started in the military where I achieved my associates in applied science.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I generally live by the principle of "Learn by experience - preferably someone else's."


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I generally live by the principle of "Learn by experience - preferably someone else's."


Why didn't you use that logic when it came to getting banned on Internet forums.. :whistling2::laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Why didn't you use that logic when it came to getting banned on Internet forums.. :whistling2::laughing:


:sleep1: 

:jester:

:thumbup:

Trust me, I learned my lesson.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I had a Union heavy equipment operator tell me today that he asked (2) Union electricians working in a commercial building about how to wire a 3-way swith..

Both electricians could not explain how to run the wires.. 

This guy has no reason to lie so it must be true.. or they just didn't want to talk to the guy..


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> I had a Union heavy equipment operator tell me today that he asked (2) Union electricians working in a commercial building about how to wire a 3-way swith..
> 
> Both electricians could not explain how to run the wires..
> 
> This guy has no reason to lie so it must be true.. or they just didn't want to talk to the guy..


 I would not tell him either let him call and make an apointment like everyone else.:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> I would not tell him either let him call and make an apointment like everyone else.:thumbsup:


Why would you be so against sharing your knowledge with someone who asked you a question? :blink:

I always found the time when a stranger asked me questions about my trade..

Telling someone you don't know the answer just makes you look stupid..

Telling someone you don't want to talk to him makes you look like a arrogant POS.. :no:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> Why would you be so against sharing your knowledge with someone who asked you a question? :blink:
> 
> I always found the time when a stranger asked me questions about my trade..
> 
> ...


 My knowledge is how I put food on my table it has value and i am not one to just give it away its not personal its just business.:no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> My knowledge is how I put food on my table it has value and i am not one to just give it away its not personal its just business.:no:


Just being nice to people can generate new customers.. in case you haven't learned that already.. :thumbsup:

I don't see what you are "giving up" by answering a simple question.. :blink:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> so name something that can't be learned from a book :whistling2:


 


Most of the things a mechanic does cannot be learned from a book. We may get started with a book and we may refer to a book for guidance but we learn most everything *by putting our hands on it.*










You could read all about hitting but you need to do it a few hundred time before you have ant sucess.











There wasn't a book available to tell me that I could/couldn't reuse these pole bases instead of throwing them in a landfill and pouring new ones.











You can't learn to operate machinery from a book.












You could read for a week on travertine installation but the first couple jobs are going to be really difficult and not very professional.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Most of the things a mechanic does cannot be learned from a book. We may get started with a book and we may refer to a book for guidance but we learn most everything *by putting our hands on it.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All of this and more can be learned from books I can read manuals that show me how to operate machines and the proper way to hit a ball the thing is you are correct in thinking doing will lead to mastery but knowledge can be had from books .


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:laughing:

People with book learning only never cut it with us. I don't even really look at resumes with no field experience anymore. And apprentice resumes with shop and auto classes in HS listed get more consideration than ones that don't.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing:
> 
> People with book learning only never cut it with us. I don't even really look at resumes with no field experience anymore. And apprentice resumes with shop and auto classes in HS listed get more consideration than ones that don't.


I'll second, and third, and fourth that. 

In my area, it's a lot easier. If you grew up on a farm, and your daddy was a farmer, that puts you ahead of 95% of the other applicants. You know how to work, you know how to figure stuff out, and you're reliable. God bless America's farmers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I tell, teach and explain anything I know about anytime, anywhere. 

I've got nothing to hide.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> People with book learning only never cut it with us.


Code nuts also don't last with us. Every one I've dealt with in person thought they were all that and were amazing cause they could spout off a some numbers from memory. If I see extensive NEC/code classes on a resume I'm round filing it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Book lean'n does seem to scare AZ residents.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> IBoth electricians could not explain how to run the wires..


 This doesn't surprise me as much as it should. I think a lot of electricians learn things like this by wrote rather than understanding what's really going on. With paper and pencil it's easy to show exactly how three way and four way switches work, but it's hard to explain in words.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well yes and no!!!! Yes books are fine but actual field work has to be experienced .

I cant tell you how many master electricians ive seen come and go over the years .

Example 25 year man oh i never seen that type of electric bender before ! Ive heard this many times .

Bull**** !

Or ive only done industrial work but ive been in the trade 25 years .

Electric is electric do it .

Underground work 30 years in the trade never seen it !

What ! They go to the shop and fill out the application and come out to us and we send them back !


You run pipe you pull wire you use the code book you terminate you trouble shoot even in new construction you must be able to work it all .

Theres lots of years and many ways to do it better and i must say it takes years to learn it but its not that hard if you can work but it does take time in our trade. 
In my case we only do commercial construction new projects and were just installers we always hear this . Construction guys dont have a a skill they just install it per the plans anyone can do that .

Any one who thinks that is way off base or never did a real large electrical project . 

We all have a scope union or non union each has its ups and downs work is work pay is what it is and no one can say there smarter or better .

Example as of this year we hired some new guys one of my helpers is a layed off NASA engineer this guy is from the space center never seen actual hard work before .

And we have 45 year old men who never had a real job before steady job now there starting ABC school .

And we have bums in our trade folks who dont want to work its just a 8 hour day these are electricians who have been in the trade for 30 years but must be layed out each day because they can not think for themselves or run a crew there not a leader they follow never had the chance to or just lazy .
Once there out of school its no more books or it just stops !

Just some input sorry if i offended anyone but thats life !


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Code nuts also don't last with us. Every one I've dealt with in person thought they were all that and were amazing cause they could spout off a some numbers from memory. If I see extensive NEC/code classes on a resume I'm round filing it.



So if someone has to take several classes just so they can wrap their heads around the Code, you're gonna forget them and hire the guy who manages to pick it up the first time around?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So if someone has to take several classes just so they can wrap their heads around the Code, you're gonna forget them and hire the guy who manages to pick it up the first time around?



What id like to see is one electrician who wants to work comes everyday to work on time! Has all tools on him reads the code book at break time goes to school can bend pipe and has a drivers license valid ! Has a car or truck that runs speaks English never talks back does what i tell him the way i want it done .

And runs when i send him for material !

Cleans up on his own !

Hummm never mind this is way off base sorry !:laughing:


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

piperunner said:


> What id like to see is one electrician who wants to work comes everyday to work on time! Has all tools on him reads the code book at break time goes to school can bend pipe and has a drivers license valid ! Has a car or truck that runs speaks English never talks back does what i tell him the way i want it done .
> 
> And runs when i send him for material !
> 
> ...


 One addendum... when he arrives he is not drunk or high, and does not indulge in the kinds of things that might make him drunk or high until after he is done work.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, then.... let's add:

Must provide all tools, from a screwdriver to a bucket truck, regardless of cost.

Must work in all kinds of weather.... -40 to 130°F, winds to 300mph, any precipitation.

Must always smile.

Will work for 30¢ an hour, no bennies.

Daily butt-kissing of boss's arse required.

Will need to work 178 hours a week, no OT pay.






















Wait........... Hey! We've just described the typical non-union worker! :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The best guys are the ones not afraid of books or field work. I don't put much stock in courses and classrooms, but I'm impressed by a guy who has a good technical library of his own: It shows a hunger to really understand.

I don't care how many books you read, you'll never become a good pipe bender until you actually do it.

I don't care how many VFDs you install, you'll never have a good knowledge of theory until you read about them.

-John


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

with more states requiring a combination of classroom and field experience the overall quality of the workforce will improve.I want people that are also hired from the neck up i want them not only to understand how to do it I want them to know why its done that way.Abe Lincoln was self taught but he wouldn't mstand a chance in todays highly competitive world.30 years ago a high school diploma would get you in the door but today you need something more just to get a look..


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> with more states requiring a combination of classroom and field experience the overall quality of the workforce will improve.I want people that are also hired from the neck up i want them not only to understand how to do it I want them to know why its done that way.Abe Lincoln was self taught but he wouldn't mstand a chance in todays highly competitive world.30 years ago a high school diploma would get you in the door but today you need something more just to get a look..


 Explain this: Why do (some) high schools, say; if your child is not too smart, then the best option is to take up a trade.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> Just being nice to people can generate new customers.. in case you haven't learned that already.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I don't see what you are "giving up" by answering a simple question.. :blink:


 Next time you are at KFC ask for the "recipe" so you can cook some at home:no: I am nice and I will discuss what I do but when it comes to giving DIY answers sorry not unless I'm on the clock. When you go into business you will understand.:thumbsup:
I know a doctor who hates telling people he is in medicine because they will always seek a free diagnosis, His answer is always call my office monday for an appointment.:yes:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I know a doctor who hates telling people he is in medicine because they will always seek a free diagnosis, His answer is always call my office monday for an appointment.:yes:


when I am out and HO's, ask what I do for a living I say "Electrical Tester", to keep me out of that realm of having to do their work. They say, "oh your an electrician?" Me well sort of but not that kind." 

But others in the trade or on site when facility folks want to know something I offer freely. I have taught classes and the information I gave there was invaluable.

IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUSE CALL Mid-Atlantic Power Specialist. Then I teach. I still have customers from my first classes 26 years ago.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> When you go into business you will understand.:thumbsup:


You already know I am in business..(self employed 36 yrs.) but that comment must go back to your rant about retirement..

_"I am not self employed I own an electrical service company." _

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/retirement-23219/#post429525


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

B4T said:


> You already know I am in business..(self employed 36 yrs.) but that comment must go back to your rant about retirement..
> 
> _"I am not self employed I own an electrical service company." _
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/retirement-23219/#post429525


 Like I said when you go into "business"


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

If I am on a jobsite or in a home depot and someone politely asks me question, I will try to help them out for free. If I had plumbing question and the plumber was on site I would ask him and hope he would not be a jerk and say call the office. You know do unto others as you would have them do to you.
and yes I am self employed and own my own business


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

You're one of us or you're one of 'em. You work while we strike, we burn your house down. 

Union is just a collective bully that tends to promote outsourcing


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> If I am on a jobsite or in a home depot and someone politely asks me question, I will try to help them out for free. If I had plumbing question and the plumber was on site I would ask him and hope he would not be a jerk and say call the office. You know do unto others as you would have them do to you.
> and yes I am self employed and own my own business


those of you who dipense free advice I hope it works out well for you :thumbsup:

Being in business nothing I do has not been thought out and examined carfully and the pros and cons weighed before a desision is made. That beingf said I will give a short sample of my reasoning not to give free advice.

My guys drive large vans with our company name on the side very visable, they also wear company shirts with the company name in bold letters on the front above the pocket.

So one of my guys gives free advice to joe homeowner on how to connect his three way switch. Joes happy because he just saved himself a few hundred dollars on a service call my guy has the warm fuzzies from helping his fellow man and all is right with the world. Remember no good deed goes unpunished.

Now Joe homeowner trots off and does his install but screws it royally. Now does Joe blame himself for the burnt switch? of course not he blames the guy that must have given him bad advice and he remembers that guy because the company name was on his shirt and he was driving a van that had a big logo and this guy was the one who didn't know how to hook up a three way.

Now Joe homeowner is not one to keep quiet so he has a need to tell a friend and that friend tells another and the next thing you no someone is posting on ET about a friend telling him the guys at Mr Rewire can't hook up a three way switch.

My people are all trained to be polite and when asked for free advice they hand a card to the person and say we would be happy to come out and install it for you.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> those of you who dipense free advice I hope it works out well for you :thumbsup:


It always has.. I have no problem wearing the label of a 'nice guy'..


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> those of you who dipense free advice I hope it works out well for you :thumbsup:
> 
> Being in business nothing I do has not been thought out and examined carfully and the pros and cons weighed before a desision is made. That beingf said I will give a short sample of my reasoning not to give free advice.
> 
> ...


Great advice!!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Rust (Mar 15, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> You're one of us or you're one of 'em. You work while we strike, we burn your house down.
> 
> Union is just a collective bully that tends to promote outsourcing


:blink::blink::blink:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Like I said when you go into "business"


 
You seem to have a good business plan and it must work you have been in business for some time (by your account). During these hard times you appear to be weathering the storm. BUT, and this is one durn big but, you do not, and have not cornered the market on how to operate a business.

I have been at this 26 years and many of my customers are EC's. I do work for one man shops, and every size firm up to several 1000 electricians and one thing I can tell you not all successful business operate off the same game play book.

Just a thought for your seemingly massive ego. 

Oh and I do realize many businessmen have big ego's. 

Just a thought, but at your age few men change, unless they hit rock bottom or have a life shattering event, which I doubt my rant on ET qualifies for.


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> You seem to have a good business plan and it must work you have been in business for some time (by your account). During these hard times you appear to be weathering the storm. BUT, and this is one durn big but, you do not, and have not cornered the market on how to operate a business.
> 
> I have been at this 26 years and many of my customers are EC's. I do work for one man shops, and every size firm up to several 1000 electricians and one thing I can tell you not all successful business operate off the same game play book.
> 
> ...


:laughing::jester::laughing::jester::laughing::jester::laughing::jester:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> My guys drive large vans with our company name on the side very visable, they also wear company shirts with the company name in bold letters on the front above the pocket.


 
If this is true why are the van logos on your website picture computer photoshoped? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> If this is true why are the van logos on your website picture computer photoshoped? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


 you mean these vans?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> those of you who dipense free advice I hope it works out well for you :thumbsup:
> 
> Being in business nothing I do has not been thought out and examined carfully and the pros and cons weighed before a desision is made. That beingf said I will give a short sample of my reasoning not to give free advice.
> 
> ...


I can certainly understand your point of view.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> you mean these vans?


 
I ment more like the vans owned by the business that went under in Sept of last year http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/129226-shuting-down-a-business/page3


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> I ment more like the vans owned by the business that went under in Sept of last year http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/129226-shuting-down-a-business/page3


Is that the same guy? If so, WTF!!!!!


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chris1971 said:


> Is that the same guy? If so, WTF!!!!!


Yea it is,click on his name over there and then click on homepage takes you to his site.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> Yea it is,click on his name over there and then click on homepage takes you to his site.


That guy is full of sht. Never trust a fart.:laughing: Thanks for the good research.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

So what about it Rewire? Did you go out of business?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

amptech said:


> So what about it Rewire? Did you go out of business?


 
I feel bad for him if he did.

I just don't get all the posts he has been making.

 The big ego,the bragging, the my sh!t doesn't stink attitude.

All his business posts obviously were just him talking out of his can


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> I feel bad for him if he did.
> 
> I just don't get all the posts he has been making.
> 
> ...


This probably explains all the time he has to post on this site.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I'd like to hear the rest of the story from Rewire himself. There is probably a lot more to it.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

This thread will magically disappear in 11 seconds.


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> I feel bad for him if he did.
> 
> I just don't get all the posts he has been making.
> 
> ...


The guy may be a  but no one should brag about his work ethic if his business did go out of business.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Google street view is a picture of his shop still, downgraded to a minivan though it looks like.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

I guess he is just going to ignore the fact that we know he is a fake.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Strickland ??? What cartoon is that from ?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> I guess he is just going to ignore the fact that we know he is a fake.


 Man you have some serious issues? Am I going to find you hiding in my bushes sniffing my old underwear?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Strickland ??? What cartoon is that from ?


 
Stickland Propane...King of the Hill


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)




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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> Man you have some serious issues? Am I going to find you hiding in my bushes sniffing my old underwear?


 
Im not the one who got everyone on a forum pissed off at me.

Went bankrupt and posted about in on 2 different forums and then came back 6 months later,added a Mr to my name and started preaching about how to run a business.


Im not stalking you this is all been posted BY YOU!!!!

You need to tone down the ego,your just like the rest of us.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> you mean these vans?


I used to work in Jersey for a "and son" outfit with green lettering and an image of a pipe smoking leprechaun on thier truck. It was a complete clown outfit. I stuck a white rock in the leprechauns pipe.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> Im not the one who got everyone on a forum pissed off at me.
> 
> Went bankrupt and posted about in on 2 different forums and then came back 6 months later,added a Mr to my name and started preaching about how to run a business.
> 
> ...


 So you do realize the difference between an internet forum and reality:no: Dont let it get to you step back if needed seek counseling just keep repeating to yoursel its just a forum, its just a forum. Why does the things I post matter to you so much you have to reaserch other forums I think you have just a little problem.:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Wait a minute here.. Mr. Rewire said I am not in business and I am doing it all wrong giving out free advise.. 

Now I read he went belly up last year.. :blink:

So exactly what is the real truth about Mr. Rewire.. :blink::blink:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I used to *work* in Jersey for a "and son" outfit with green lettering and an image of a pipe smoking leprechaun on thier truck. It was a complete clown outfit. I stuck a white rock in the leprechauns pipe.


 Well we know this can't be true ,now if you had said you showed up and drew a paycheck ....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mr. Rewire.. 9/8/10.. MH

_"Not sure what i will do next still busy shutting down I meet with accountant and lawyer next week to do all the final paperwork. I may check and see if i have any VA bennies and go to school."_


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Well we know this can't be true ,now if you had said you showed up and drew a paycheck ....


I do work for a living . "and son" was where I would drive with two feet, one constantly mashed on the accelerator, the other on the brake to control speed and stop.:laughing: Kept burning out transmissions one after the other.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I used to run into another EC much like Rewire who was all high on himself at the supplyhouse. He had a comment towards me when he involved himself as C in an A-B conversation between the counter clerk and myself. They did not stock SQ D and only sold Murray Panels which i commented suck. Needless to say I now work for one of his former GCs . Some people really need to deflate themselves and stop walking around holding thier breathe so they look like they have a chest. Hey, I'm just an electrician, much like many of them out there.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Mr Rewire said:


> So you do realize the difference between an internet forum and reality:no: Dont let it get to you step back if needed seek counseling just keep repeating to yoursel its just a forum, its just a forum. Why does the things I post matter to you so much you have to reaserch other forums I think you have just a little problem.:laughing:


Mr. Rewire, I am not posting here to sling ****. I do believe you are having issues with reality. Counseling may be in your best interest. People on this forum dont know when to believe you myself included.

Charlie


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Charlie K said:


> Mr. Rewire, I am not posting here to sling ****. I do believe you are having issues with reality. Counseling may be in your best interest. People on this forum dont know when to believe you myself included.
> 
> Charlie


 Two things I learned 

1. You can do everything right and still fail.

2. Just because you are down doesn't mean you have to stay down.

My little internet stalker went back 8 months and found some posts from another site and now thinks hes got the "goods" well first I am sad for him that he is letting me live in his head rent free. :no:

Second this is an internet forum and if I ever derive my self worth from an opinion of someone who posts here please shoot me.


As much as i love talking about me i believe this thread had a different topic.:thumbsup:


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Mr. Rewire, I agree with you on numbers 1 & 2. Number 3 should be know when to move on. Number 4 should be choose your battles wisely. I have been down on the bottom more than once and swear I will never make those mistakes again. We all do its human nature. I would like to work 2 or 3 days a week for a few months. Daughter informed my wife and I she is going back to grad school and needs some help. Oldest son who has been out of work for a while just called for money. Damn if you do damn if you dont. Just keep your chin up.

Charlie


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> Two things I learned
> 
> 1. You can do everything right and still fail.


 No, if you are doing EVERYTHING right, failure will not occur. Matter of fact, you can do several things wrong, still recover, and succeed.....



Mr Rewire said:


> 2. Just because you are down doesn't mean you have to stay down.


No, and hard learned experience is invaluable, it does not, however, make one a "expert" instantly...



Mr Rewire said:


> My little internet stalker went back 8 months and found some posts from another site and now thinks hes got the "goods" well first I am sad for him that he is letting me live in his head rent free. :no:


 Hey, don't get mad that he found embarrassing "goods" on ya, take the hit, man up, and get over it... 



Mr Rewire said:


> Second this is an internet forum and if I ever derive my self worth from an opinion of someone who posts here please shoot me.
> As much as i love talking about me i believe this thread had a different topic.:thumbsup:


Which you have successfully derailed......


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Jmohl said:


> No, if you are doing EVERYTHING right, failure will not occur. Matter of fact, you can do several things wrong, still recover, and succeed.....


 I use to also think that until I realized some things are out of my control.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> I use to also think that until I realized some things are out of my control.


What you can control will have a direct impact on what you can't. Advertising for instance. It is a major expense but if you neglect it, it will have a major negative impact. And when advertising starts paying off, you need to go that much harder at it. Stuff like that...:thumbup:


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

Non-union johnny's are a dime a dozen. Or about 60% the union rate. Take your pick.

Funny, they never had a clue how their foreman is making more than union scale. LOL

Tools get paid tool wages.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

VictorM78 said:


> Non-union johnny's are a dime a dozen. Or about 60% the union rate. Take your pick.
> 
> Funny, they never had a clue how their foreman is making more than union scale. LOL
> 
> Tools get paid tool wages.


Pfft I would never pay anyone that much. Maybe 30% of union wage. Unless its PW but there gonna have to kick some back.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


There are good non union electricians, we all know that. When someone says..."He's really " good at what he does , what does that mean? If he has gone through a Department of Labor approved process he is probably qualified. If he has not gone through a program that is approved by the department of labor he can still be good but just not "qualified".


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I said it before and I'll say it again - the reason non-union workers are not qualified is their tiny rat brains cannot comprehend the complexity of electrical work.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter D said:


> comprehend the complexity of electrical work.


Yeah crap like tightening setscrews on fittings, putting straps on conduit, using a bender, pulling wire and cable is just too complex.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah crap like tightening setscrews on fittings, putting straps on conduit, using a bender, pulling wire and cable is just too complex.



It's rocket science, don'tcha know! :laughing:

But it sure beats roofing or pulling pumps out of septic pits. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's rocket science, don'tcha know! :laughing:
> 
> But it sure beats roofing or pulling pumps out of septic pits. :whistling2:












Dammit, Smithers! This isn't rocket science.... it's brain surgery!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter D said:


> But it sure beats roofing or pulling pumps out of septic pits. :whistling2:


I gotta shingle a little dog house for a hydro pneumatic tank air compressor next week. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I gotta shingle a little dog house for an hydro pneumatic tank air compressor next week. :laughing:


Perfect. :thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I said it before and I'll say it again - the reason non-union workers are not qualified is their tiny rat brains cannot comprehend the complexity of electrical work.


Nope.. :no:

Rats don't know how to take a (2) month job and stretch it out to (3) months with plenty of overtime..


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

B4T said:


> Nope.. :no:
> 
> Rats don't know how to take a (2) month job and stretch it out to (3) months with plenty of overtime..


Yeah, a rat would finish the job in 5 weeks on straight-time with no bennies, go home dog tired every night, then try and recover on the weekends. Excuse me, not rat..... the RAT is the contractor. I must clarify, the non-union merit johnny would do that. He deserves a MERITORIOUS AWARD for that!!!! He's a hero!!!


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

VictorM78 said:


> Yeah, a rat would finish the job in 5 weeks on straight-time with no bennies, go home dog tired every night, then try and recover on the weekends. Excuse me, not rat..... the RAT is the contractor. I must clarify, the non-union merit johnny would do that. He deserves a MERITORIOUS AWARD for that!!!! He's a hero!!!


Until you have something positive to contribute, could you kindly go fornicate a chainsaw?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

VictorM78 said:


> Yeah, a rat would finish the job in 5 weeks on straight-time with no bennies, go home dog tired every night, then try and recover on the weekends. Excuse me, not rat..... the RAT is the contractor. I must clarify, the non-union merit johnny would do that. He deserves a MERITORIOUS AWARD for that!!!! He's a hero!!!


Thats all you dummys think about is bennys when all you need is money and know how to budget it, so you have a retirment and heath care why do you need some else to spend your money for you? are you just that dumb or what?:blink:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Rockyd said:


> I*F* yo*u see K *ay *Y*ou *o*ughta *u*nwind:laughing:
> 
> 
> Edit - you to 480, & Marc!!!:whistling2::laughing:


Was i drunk or on my pain meds the day I typed this?????

Better go check my supply of Crown Royal Down half a bottle....

Edit - It was a post from 4/20 self induced medication:laughing:


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats all you dummys think about is bennys when all you need is money and know how to budget it, so you have a retirment and heath care why do you need some else to spend your money for you? are you just that dumb or what?:blink:


 You're talking about the smallest percentage of working people out there! I was brought up that you have to put away a little for that rainy day. Very few people can save anything, even if there life depended on it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

But these days I can hire an out of work union guy for less than non union wages. unfortunately they suck and don't know how to produce.


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## FCR1988 (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm not trying to act immature by saying this, but, in my opinion from what I've seen, most of the Union guys who are working on a building at school look really trashy, they act cocky and vulgar. Don't get me wrong, I'm the same way when I'm around my classmates or when I'm on a jobsite. But when we're taking a tour with our instructors, Dean and female counselors, I would think that they would at least act professional. 

As far as work goes, the runs look nice. But so does my teachers, and everyone else in my program - because we're trained to do a job the right way. I personally think that, after a few years in the field, everyone in my program will be too qualified to work for any union. 

I'm sure not everyone who works for a Union is what I described, but from my slim experience it seems enough of them are.


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## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

TorchRed said:


> i'm non union and it seems like alot of union people tend to believe that non union people aren't qualified to do the work they do, or don't have the right to. please explain....:sweatdrop:


 The only diffrence union and non union is our contract we have, thare are very qualified and unqalified people on both sides of the fence.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

IBEW191 said:


> The only difference union and non union is our contract we have, there are very qualified and unqualified people on both sides of the fence.


Without a doubt at all that is the truth.:thumbsup:


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

gold said:


> Pfft I would never pay anyone that much. Maybe 30% of union wage. Unless its PW but there gonna have to kick some back.


30% union wage? Where I am that amounts to a whopping $11.12. A pre-apprentice makes more than that. I do hope you're being sarcastic because that is an insult to anyone in our trade. I'm not doing 5 years of training for a wage that a cashier would laugh at.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Acadian9 said:


> 30% union wage? Where I am that amounts to a whopping $11.12. A pre-apprentice makes more than that. I do hope you're being sarcastic because that is an insult to anyone in our trade. I'm not doing 5 years of training for a wage that a cashier would laugh at.


 
Well 30% equals to more then twice that so stay in Canada EHHHHH!!!!!


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

In my area Union guys don't talk code much or open a code book unless they are the foreman because they "learned it in school". Essentially most are mechanics and not real electricians. This is just being honest.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

In my area most non union guys don't even own a code book and the only knowledge they have is what the guy they work for was willing to show them . Most have no formal training and the boss is afraid to show them to much or next week they will start competing against him. You can always tell when the non union guye tried their hand at a commercial job when you open a box and find black white green,black white green, black white green 12 thhn pulled in the conduit.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> In my area Union guys don't talk code much or open a code book unless they are the foreman because they "learned it in school". Essentially most are mechanics and not real electricians. This is just being honest.


Just think about what everyone says about expensive union labor. Something that is valuable is usually managed very well. With very few exceptions, every union job I have been on has skilled supervision calling all of the shots. No one needs to pull out a code book and try to design something by the seat of their pants.
The foreman lays out the work and makes sure all of the tools and materials are at the work site. I have seen some incredible productivity out of people that seem to make the work look effortless. 
Good planning is essential to profitable work.
Remember that union contractors are paying PW and bidding and winning jobs from contractors that pay what ever they care to.

99% of the time, guys that show up from our hall can work proficient bending pipe, making up panels, terminating cables and what ever is asked of them. They have all of the tools required of them and will usually know them or know of them. 

BTW, I have worked both sides and know the difference.


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## Variant (Aug 20, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> In my area Union guys don't talk code much or open a code book unless they are the foreman because they "learned it in school".


 That's not true at all. It's not because "they learned it in school", it is because they don't need to use a code book to do most of their job. When you send an electrician to install a typical residential service, do you expect him to use his code book? Do you look down on him if he doesn't have to?

Most union work is commercial new construction or large renovation. In that type of work, most of the electrical system has been engineered and must be installed to the plans and specs. In the few instances that leeway is given, it is usually up to the foreman to figure it out and instruct the electrician how he wants it done. It's not the electrician's fault, as you like to put it, that he isn't doing the engineering, it's just the way the job goes. 

There is, however, still code that every electrician needs to know to do his job, but those are things that they have learned over the years and know without having to look it up. 



> Essentially most are mechanics and not real electricians. This is just being honest.


You're not being honest, you're being inaccurate. Who are you to judge what a "real electrician" is? 

Furthermore, why have you aimed your disparaging remarks directly at union electrician when it's a fact that the union only has about 10% marketshare and the other 90% of the electricians who are doing this type of "not real electrician" work are non-union?


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## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> In my area most non union guys don't even own a code book and the only knowledge they have is what the guy they work for was willing to show them . Most have no formal training and the boss is afraid to show them to much or next week they will start competing against him. You can always tell when the non union guye tried their hand at a commercial job when you open a box and find black white green,black white green, black white green 12 thhn pulled in the conduit.


 I serously doubt that was a union worker, ive never in my life seen this on any of the jobs ive been on, with the exeption of isolated grounds. you damn non union guys stir up more crap then we do, thats for damn sure! Ive yet to see a thread whare a union guy is bashing non union. Im still new to the site though.. My code book is a tool of my trade, i take it with me just as i do every other tool i own!


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## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> In my area Union guys don't talk code much or open a code book unless they are the foreman because they "learned it in school". Essentially most are mechanics and not real electricians. This is just being honest.


 Mechanics? I dont get this. What is your deffinition of "REAL ELECTRICIAN" Please share...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> In my area most non union guys don't even own a code book and the only knowledge they have is what the guy they work for was willing to show them . Most have no formal training and the boss is afraid to show them to much or next week they will start competing against him. You can always tell when the non union guye tried their hand at a commercial job when you open a box and find black white green,black white green, black white green 12 thhn pulled in the conduit.



Mebbe you need to head north out of the State of Misery.


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## Kite&KeyElectric (Mar 31, 2011)

In Florida where it is "right to work state" the union is not very strong. Non-union do not have to go through apprenticeship, heck a journeyman isn't required to be on the job. The company I started with did join a conglomerate of other contractors that started a school and got it certified. It was a good program and I went through it. In order to get your certification you had to take the 4 year course and log 8000 hours. But the crazy thing is, you don't have to go through apprenticeship to take the journeyman's exam. And to go even crazier, you don't have to be a master or journeyman electrician to take your contractors exam. You have to prove 6 years of 3 phase work with 2 of them in a supervisor or foreman position. 

I will say, the union is strong when it comes to teaching there electricians. I hired a union guy (union couldn't get him work for a year except a couple weeks here and there) and he was smart. He knew the code very well.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Mebbe you need to head north out of the State of Misery.


 Alot of this is directly related to no state licensing.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

IBEW191 said:


> Ive yet to see a thread whare a union guy is bashing non union. Im still new to the site though..


HA! Stick around. 

Or you can just do a search for the word "rat" and see what gems you come up with. 

Quite a few of the union guys I know are intensely pro-union, and by this I mean anti-open shop.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> .........Or you can just do a search for the word "rat" and see what gems you come up with. .....


"Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms. The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : *rat"*


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is my one and only contribution to this thread. "Qualified" does not always equal "competent". Likewise, there are many who are extremely capable but do not have "qualifications". The ability to learn and practice a trade is dependent on the aptitude and attitude of the individual. There are no-load slugs in union shops and in open shops (less tolerance generally in open) and hard working, knowledgeable tradesmen in each. In this forum that comes into perfect focus.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms. The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : *rat"*


 :wallbash::surrender:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms. The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : *rat"*



There is another way to search this site


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> There is another way to search this site



Or you could do it the easy way.

But I'm a rat, so I don't have the mental capacity to do either.


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

FCR1988 said:


> As far as work goes, the runs look nice. But so does my teachers, and everyone else in my program - because we're trained to do a job the right way. I personally think that, after a few years in the field, *everyone in my program will be too qualified to work for any union. *


Don't cry when you graduate from your program Perry Tech boy, and then you have to start out in the apprenticeship from square one. LOL

Tell your instructor, 'those who can't do, TEACH.' Probably because he's old as hell and needs a gravy job.


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

Rockyd said:


> Was i drunk or on my pain meds the day I typed this?????
> 
> Edit - It was a post from 4/20 self induced medication:laughing:


You eat some chocolate? LOL


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

nitro71 said:


> In my area Union guys .......


There are no union guys left in your area, to speak of. Because there is no work there. LOL Maybe you should move to the tri-cities, where there is tons of work, and the local is STRONG.


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Or you can just do a search for the word "rat" and see what gems you come up with.


Let me help, RAT, RAT, RAT, and RAT.

And all you one-man shows who exhibit false pride in being a rat, Let me set the record straight: you're not good enough to be a RAT, you are a mere 'independent contractor.' LOL


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

VictorM78 said:


> Let me help, RAT, RAT, RAT, and RAT.
> 
> And all you one-man shows who exhibit false pride in being a rat, Let me set the record straight: you're not good enough to be a RAT, you are a mere 'independent contractor.' LOL


And you are not man enough to make your way through life, you need the union to fight your battles and protect you from the world.


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## VictorM78 (Aug 18, 2011)

BBQ said:


> And you are not man enough to make your way through life,


That's odd, I feel as if I'm being proffered advice by a tub of jello. LOL


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

VictorM78 said:


> That's odd, I feel as if I'm being proffered advice by a tub of jello. LOL


 
Watch him wiggle

Cool and Fruity :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

VictorM78 said:


> Let me help, RAT, RAT, RAT, and RAT.
> 
> And all you one-man shows who exhibit false pride in being a rat, Let me set the record straight: you're not good enough to be a RAT, you are a mere 'independent contractor.' LOL



Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah!

Most union Sparkies don't have the testacular mass to attempt to make a go if it on their own.

FYI, "Independent" means we make our own decisions, instead of paying someone else to make them for us.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

And we're off again with a throw back troll that can not stay away. Stir stir stir and down the drain they will go again.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

And with that we are back to the old "I'm great, you suck" union/non-union argument that will surely persuade folks to change their thinking. 

This argument is as old as the ground up/down argument, and I highly doubt anything anyone says in a thread like this is going to change anyone's mind.


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