# Electrical safety vs " The Money Grab "



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

At least home owner permits mean it gets inspected. Otherwise we would see even more DIY death traps than we do already.

In the renovation game we see unpermitted home owner specials all the time. The stupidity of people is mind numbing.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Borgi said:


> Morning everyone:
> 
> I am sure this topic has been discussed to death, but I seem to be seeing it more in one of the so called richest provinces in Canada! Alberta, for those of you unfamiliar.
> 
> ...


#1- homeowners should never ever be able to wire their own houses. Those get sold to victims at some point or are handed down to the victims. Fire is an awful thing .

#2. You should continue in learning your trade till you get yourself educated enough to be able to whiz right thru your masters test with no difficulty, and then you can join those of us who have , and enjoy the fruits of your studies thereafter. 

#3. I also hear this lament often from 1yr apprentices who think they learned the whole trade after 6 months on the job bending 90's and a few saddles. 

Now if you have been in your trade for decades (from your picture I suspect you have, and I also suspect you would ace the test...) and have mastered it, then why the hell haven't you bothered to advance your tickets to the top level that you can? The few hundred dollars for taking a test pales next to the thousands in profit to be gained from holding a master's ticket.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

#2. You should continue in learning your trade till you get yourself educated enough to be able to whiz right thru your masters test with no difficulty, and then you can join those of us who have , and enjoy the fruits of your studies thereafter. 


Now if you have been in your trade for decades (from your picture I suspect you have, and I also suspect you would ace the test...) and have mastered it, then why the hell haven't you bothered to advance your tickets to the top level that you can? The few hundred dollars for taking a test pales next to the thousands in profit to be gained from holding a master's ticket.[/QUOTE]

I am writing it soon, and yes I will pass easily. That's not the point!

"Electrical Safety" should be the point NOT money used to be a so called "Master"

All theses letters after your name, and titles like "Master", do NOT make you, ( not you personally ), a good electrician! As I am sure you are aware, nothing nor any amount of money, makes up for years of experience and a dedication to SAFETY! 

I do appreciate your advice and your taking the time to comment. I am getting old  and a little tired of having to pay for everything in life while lazy crooks like Mike Duffy cruise through life at our expense. 

Sorry for the rant! :no:

Thanks, Borgi


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Permits are no guarantee of anything. Permits should never be required. If they are required, they should be available to absolutely anyone at no cost. Inspections are the only check and balance for safety. The permit is the big money grab for an otherwise useless document. Happy to pay whatever is required for inspections, however.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> Permits are no guarantee of anything. Permits should never be required. If they are required, they should be available to absolutely anyone at no cost. Inspections are the only check and balance for safety. The permit is the big money grab for an otherwise useless document. Happy to pay whatever is required for inspections, however.


I agree 100%!

I was going to comment on that regard later, but I will add to your comment.

Permits in Alberta, and in other jurisdictions, are based on the cost of the project. Like you said, that's the " Money Grab ". I'll go one step further and say inspections should be free as well ! Well the inspector himself should get paid, but by the jurisdiction!

I have heard first hand how Agencies want as many permits pulled and inspected as possible. Silent condition of employment. 

Thanks, Borgi


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Borgi said:


> I agree 100%!
> 
> I was going to comment on that regard later, but I will add to your comment.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go so far, myself, to say inspections should be free. The inspectors provide a service, and as such should be paid. I'm the one requiring the service, so I'm the one that should pay.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

I was editing when I heard I had mail, and read your your reply!

Thanks, Borgi


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If it's not permitted you can't call for a permit. As far as the Master's license goes, I am not sure if I understand your point. A standard needs to be established and how do you enforce that standard without some sort of test of experience and code/technical knowledge?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Permit costs, however, do encourage people to fly under the radar.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

99cents said:


> If it's not permitted you can't call for a permit. As far as the Master's license goes, I am not sure if I understand your point. A standard needs to be established and how do you enforce that standard without some sort of test of experience and code/technical knowledge?


To clarify, I ask the client to call here in Alberta.

The standard is the license we get when we pass the code exam after an apprenticeship. The " Safety Codes Act " is what should be used to enforce that standard.

To be a Master only requires three more years of experience after you have been licensed, another exam, and more MONEY! 

Clients ask for me because of my grey hair,  not because I am a "Master". Obviously, I don't have my "Master" yet! I do agree it helps in some ways, but shouldn't be a requirement!

Thanks, Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hello again:

Ok, let's talk code updates.

When I recently got my certification as a SCO it was based on the 2009 code, because Alberta hadn't accepted the 2012 CEC yet, and I didn't want to wait.

As luck would have it, the 2012 CEC was made law in Alberta late last fall. So now I have to update to the 2012 CEC, which I already knew, to keep my certification. I contacted the SCC, ( Safety Code Council ), and asked if I can write my Master license based now on the 2012 CEC, and use that as my code update and keep my recently acquired certification. Sounds perfectly logically to me. Plus I save money. 

Well you can probably guess the answer. :no: If I pay for and take the pre Master course, that counts as an update.  See my dilemma! 

So now I will be forking out money for the pre Master course, so I might as well get my Master certificate. I am told by wise men that doors may open when I get it! :laughing:

Thanks, Borgi


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I wouldn't go so far, myself, to say inspections should be free. The inspectors provide a service, and as such should be paid. I'm the one requiring the service, so I'm the one that should pay.


Our permit fees pay the inspectors salary. Now, whether the job actually gets inspected after the permit is pulled is anybody's guess. Some do, some don't. Either way, the township gets their $$$.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Electrical safety is not some altruism Borgi, it is a business.

~CS~


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I have what I think is an interesting perspective on this.

I worked for a time as a resi. contractor in California and got my C-10 licence, but that was a LOOOONG time ago. Still, I was involved in may inspections (there is no requirement for a "Master" in California). I got out of the resi. business and got into industrial, then got out of contracting and got an EE degree later in life, then got back into it in Washington State by opening a Systems Integration business. But even though I had maintained my C-10 for all that time, there was no reciprocity between Calif. and Washington State, so I could not get a license there without starting over and they DO have a Master license requirement to pull a permit, which would mean working as a J-man under one to be able to get it. So I passed the J-man test, but partnered with someone who HAD a Masters license and stayed in the trade, albeit as an industrial SI who just installed my own systems.

Be that as it may, when I moved back to Calif., I added on to my own house. I acted as my own GC, then subbed out the foundation, framing, roof, plumbing etc., basically everything but the electrical. Why would I do that? I have to say, having been through many inspections AS a licensed contractor in the past, the inspections done as a "DIY HOMEOWNER", even though I had told the inspector that I USED TO have a C-10 license, were incredibly tougher than what I had ever experienced as a contractor. Maybe he didn't believe me, maybe he was just a Richard, I don't know. 

But if I ever do it again, I'm just going to pay someone.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Some states and countries have a lot of safety related bureaucracy, some do not. 

My state requires nothing, zero, nada, for a single family dwelling. 

You are free to do whatever you please within your OWN existence here , short of building rocket launchers on your roof _(which your neighbors might like, but HS will not)_

This is because nanny statism does _not_ work, you will never legislate safety , because all you do is insist on $$$$ thrown at resources that ONLY see $$$$



~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> Electrical safety is not some altruism Borgi, it is a business.
> 
> ~CS~


I don't agree. Safety should be an absolute, irrespective of money. If you can't afford to do it safely then it should NOT be done. I am talking electrical safety. 

Unfortunately, everything in this world seems to be about the all mighty dollar!

Time for a pop 

Love your slogan by the way.

Thanks, Borgi


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It costs more to fill up the average pickup truck than it does to renew my Masters license. Hardly a cash gab. I willingly pay my annual fee.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

All a Masters means is being subject *TO* safety standards 

Most of which are created by the _desires _of manufacturers they _collude_ with

Lawyers who make a living , on_ both _sides of the bench, from them

And politicians who win due to their contingency_ insisting_ on them

~CS~


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Borgi said:


> Unfortunately, everything in this world seems to be about the all mighty dollar!
> 
> Thanks, Borgi


Borgi, go to school and write your Masters Exam. Pay the fee and get the piece of paper.

I'm a Master Electrician. Have had my own company since '75. Been a Master since '75. Paid the yearly fee since '75.

No more of this electrical stuff.

I have to pay a fee for my two cats and one yorki... every effin year.

It doesn't matter if you want to drive a nice truck or a dirty filthy stinken diesel air/noise polluting pos. You have to pay a fee. Your licence will cost more if you want to drive an 18 wheeler. I drive a 1/2 ton. My plates cost more then my neighbour that drives a 1/2 ton. Commercial plates you see. Same damage to the road but it's the system.

It's the way our free world works. Everything is financed either with taxes, licence fees or photo radar.

You want to be a Master than do what the system wants. Just like a brain surgeon, in our world there is a way to get that ticket and a price to pay for it.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> All a Masters means is being subject *TO* safety standards
> 
> Most of which are created by the _desires _of manufacturers they _collude_ with
> 
> ...


I agree to a degree! 

One example is AFCI receptacle protection. I have read that in the United States they are required all through the home. Here in Canada only in bedrooms. 

Daycare centres must have TR receptacles, so do homes in most areas. I agree with that. More later.

I have read here, and at other sites, the many issues with AFCIs. I am old school and believe that if a quality licensed electrician does the install, ( all of it, including rough in ) there should be no need for AFCI protection. Maybe optional as a backup perhaps. 

Even though you get nuisance trips, if you understand why, they can be helpful. Plus different manufacturers have better results.

Fires I believe, now I don't have all the tainted skewed stats, are caused by old wiring overloaded by plug in heaters, and poor workmanship at times. Home owners should be forced, if renovating, to replace all of the old wiring, or at least be able to physically inspect it!

But, as you mentioned chicken Steve, a whole lot of lobbying and corruption occurred before AFCI became law! 

Thanks, Borgi


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## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Who's stopping you from getting a contractors license? 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

-electrician's license
-master's license
-contractor's license
-Code book fee
-Code book Updates fee
-Safety bulletin fee
-Inspection fees
-Workmans comp fees
-H&S (Green/Orange) book fee
-Yearly boom truck inspection
-WHIMIS training fee
-First Aid certification training fee
-Fall Arrest Training fees
- Then we have taxes
- If anything is left over I may get to eat. 

If a customer ever asks why Electricians are so expensive I rattle those off real quick. I'm all for the INTENT of this system but when you start looking at it as a whole it gets real expensive. I'm all for the INTENT but it seems we're just feeding a cash bureaucratic-monster when you look at it as a whole.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> Who's stopping you from getting a contractors license?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Nobody is stopping me. I am not interested in being a contractor again.

I work as a consultant on small projects. Mostly through word of mouth. I got my SCO certification simply to upgrade, and possibly work under contract if the opportunity presents itself.

Helping people is what electrical safety should be about! 

Thanks Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

daks said:


> -electrician's license
> -master's license
> -contractor's license
> -Code book fee
> ...


I agree, other than loving the trade, sometimes it's just not worth it! 

A customer, who happened to own a pub in a campground, questioned me once on my fees, which are very reasonable. I told them I don't question the price of a beer, and I have yet to get a free one! :laughing:

Still one of best customers. Every now and then I get a cold beer from them too! They have since closed the pub. 

Thanks, Borgi


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