# Aluminum or copper?



## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

What so you guys use for your services? I guess I use copper as an old habit, but to be competitive I might start using aluminum. Help keep the costs down. And why would you use one over the other?


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

I use aluminum because there is absolutely no reason to use copper.

Once in a blue moon I will get a customer who asks for copper, so I happily sell it to them with a huge markup.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Aluminum is good enough for the POCO so it's good enough for me

serious statement, no sarcasm


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Haxwoper said:


> I use aluminum because there is absolutely no reason to use copper.
> 
> Once in a blue moon I will get a customer who asks for copper, so I happily sell it to them with a huge markup.


Pretty much sums it up. :yes:

I haven't used CU for a service in recent memory.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

drspec said:


> Aluminum is good enough for the POCO so it's good enough for me


 What kinda logic is that? Power may come through four-hundred miles of aluminum to reach your house, but if those last 15 feet ain't copper then it's all down-hill. :no:

(This is sarcasm. Apparently I suck at it.)


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> What kinda logic is that? It may come through four hundred miles of aluminum to reach your house, but if those last 15 feet ain't copper* then it's all down-hill.* :no:


Jezze, no kidding, I have an overhead service, of course the last 15' are down hill. What an idiot. :laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I hope you step on a Lego block.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Big John said:


> I hope you step on a Lego block.



:laughing:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Big John said:


> What kinda logic is that? Power may come through four-hundred miles of aluminum to reach your house, but if those last 15 feet ain't copper then it's all down-hill. :no:


 ..............................


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

We have graduated from Legos to earnings.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

drspec said:


> ummm.......either our wires or crossed
> 
> or you can't read
> 
> ...


 A good rule of thumb is "When in doubt, assume sarcasm."

I'm just making all kinds of friends in this thread. Why can't I go back to Pony's bitching thread?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Big John said:


> A good rule of thumb is "When in doubt, assume sarcasm."


I would have used one of those gay :jester: smilies if I was being sarcastic


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I only use tin-coated copper. Regular copper is for casuals and fake electricians. Aluminum is just hacky.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> I use aluminum because there is absolutely no reason to use copper.
> 
> Once in a blue moon I will get a customer who asks for copper, so I happily sell it to them with a huge markup.


A fool and his money are soon parted. Engineers are good for this. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Always AL. I live in the land of SE cable and it's 99.9% aluminum. On those rare occasions you see a PVC service on a house, it's usually AL wire in those too.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Big John said:


> I hope you step on a Lego block.


Lmfao


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

You can't even get aluminum here in SoCal. All the supply houses only carry copper. I'd use aluminum if it was readily available.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

What's the going rates if your guys areas for 200 amp upgrade, 40/40 panel with about 30 circuits? Basic service, nothing crazy with meter/main dissconnects.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

djcubinlinx said:


> what's the going rates if your guys areas for 200 amp upgrade, 40/40 panel with about 30 circuits? Basic service, nothing crazy with meter/main dissconnects.


$2300.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Bkessler said:


> $2300.


With CU or AL?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Djcubinlinx said:


> With CU or AL?


CU.....


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I switched to aluminum in 2004 when copper prices started to rise, I found that Stabiloy is the happiest xlpe to work with


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

The funny thing is that around here you could only find copper in THHN while you can only find aluminum in XHHW, which is a better insulation. So you could say the aluminum installation is better.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> The funny thing is that around here you could only find copper in THHN while you can only find aluminum in XHHW, which is a better insulation. So you could say the aluminum installation is better.


I think Southwire introduced aluminum Simpull THHN a few years ago. I've never seen it though.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I only sell copper services.. but I did use AL for a riser that over 60' run....

Copper is still king here and people don't mind paying for it....

It comes down to asking a customer if they want "gold or silver".. 

I already know you guys don't agree with this... but there is a benefit of only stocking one type for me.. :thumbsup:

If people are willing to pay for it.. why is there a problem.. :blink::blink:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

B4T said:


> I only sell copper services.. but I did use AL for a riser that over 60' run....
> 
> Copper is still king here and people don't mind paying for it....
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense. Tying those fancy copper service conductors to aluminum lugs on an aluminum buss murray panel. That's some logic right there.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

MTW said:


> I think Southwire introduced aluminum Simpull THHN a few years ago. I've never seen it though.


You're right, I've used Al THHN in large size feeders about 3 years ago when I was still doing union work. But it's not something I could get in 4/0 at my smaller supply house, I've asked.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> I already know you guys don't agree with this... but there is a benefit of only stocking one type for me.. :thumbsup:


 You stock it?? I always order the length that I need for each job. Much easier and the cost is the same.



> If people are willing to pay for it.. why is there a problem.. :blink::blink:


Here's the thing, 97% of the people asking for service upgrades don't know the difference, they certainly don't come out and ask. So if I am going to sell them a service for $2,700, why not use aluminum and put an extra $100-150 profit into my pocket vs. using copper?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> You stock it?? I always order the length that I need for each job. Much easier and the cost is the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing, 97% of the people asking for service upgrades don't know the difference, they certainly don't come out and ask. So if I am going to sell them a service for $2,700, why not use aluminum and put an extra $100-150 profit into my pocket vs. using copper?


Most of my services are PVC risers and SEU into the basement...

I will buy extra THHN and save it for the winter time... I always have a few services where the parts are all paid for and in stock.. ready to go...

If things fall into place those jobs are straight cash and we all know where that goes.. :whistling2::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MTW said:


> I think Southwire introduced aluminum Simpull THHN a few years ago. I've never seen it though.


I got it in 4/0,4/0,4/0,4/0 MC a few years back, nice stuff to work with.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

B4T said:


> Most of my services are PVC risers and SEU into the basement... I will buy extra THHN and save it for the winter time... I always have a few services where the parts are all paid for and in stock.. ready to go... If things fall into place those jobs are straight cash and we all know where that goes.. :whistling2::laughing:


PVC riser seems shoddy to me. Shouldn't the gold service upgrade include RMC. The PVC seems like it might get a little brittle in the cold.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Makes perfect sense. Tying those fancy copper service conductors to aluminum lugs on an aluminum buss murray panel. That's some logic right there.


:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> You stock it?? I always order the length that I need for each job. Much easier and the cost is the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing, 97% of the people asking for service upgrades don't know the difference, they certainly don't come out and ask. So if I am going to sell them a service for $2,700, why not use aluminum and put an extra $100-150 profit into my pocket vs. using copper?


B4T sells copper services for less than one with AL SE cable. I guess he doesn't like making money. :blink:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> Most of my services are PVC risers and SEU into the basement...
> 
> I will buy extra THHN and save it for the winter time... I always have a few services where the parts are all paid for and in stock.. ready to go...


How is stock material "paid for"? :001_huh: If it's leftover from other jobs it's waste, not "paid for".


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MTW said:


> How is stock material "paid for"? :001_huh: If it's leftover from other jobs it's waste, not "paid for".


Simple concept.... I can sell a service change and owe nothing to the SH... all materials are paid for....

If the job is $2700.00... that is what goes into the cash drawer...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> Simple concept.... I can sell a service change and owe nothing to the SH... all materials are paid for....
> 
> If the job is $2700.00... that is what goes into the cash drawer...:thumbup::thumbup:


I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. :blink: Please explain this one better or provide some numbers to show how this works.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

:confused1: B4T, the stock cost has to be subtracted from the job cost, even if it's already paid for. You still gotta take money "out of the cash drawer" to pay for it, right?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> You're right, I've used Al THHN in large size feeders about 3 years ago when I was still doing union work. But it's not something I could get in 4/0 at my smaller supply house, I've asked.


That's too bad, it would come in handy for smaller feeders.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Bkessler said:


> PVC riser seems shoddy to me. Shouldn't the gold service upgrade include RMC. The PVC seems like it might get a little brittle in the cold.


 im just curious, where does this idea come from?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know what the heck you morons are arguing about. It's pretty obvious that the flux capacitors are the only way to go.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4t, I don't understand your reasoning in response to what I said earlier.

You sell the job at the cost of using copper, but you install aluminum. You just made yourself lots of extra profit.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> :confused1: B4T, the stock cost has to be subtracted from the job cost, even if it's already paid for. You still gotta take money "out of the cash drawer" to pay for it, right?


You're missing the point completely.. :blink::blink:

I buy extra in times of "plenty" and get back the reward of PAID IN FULL when times are slow...


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> You're missing the point completely.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I buy extra in times of "plenty" and get back the reward of PAID IN FULL when times are slow...


But there is no reward, at the end it evens out exactly, nothing was gained.

If you left your cash in the bank during times of plenty instead of buying extra material, you'd be better off.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> You're missing the point completely.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I buy extra in times of "plenty" and get back the reward of PAID IN FULL when times are slow...


Wow...just wow.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I run lean on the materials...homeless depot is everywhere here...my supply house is awesome too. I place order on web and run in, well more like hobble, well limp in and have the young dude throw the chit in my truck while I drink their coffee and plan lunch.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> You're missing the point completely.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I buy extra in times of "plenty" and get back the reward of PAID IN FULL when times are slow...


Show us the math how this is the case.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

RGH said:


> I run lean on the materials...homeless depot is everywhere here...my supply house is awesome too. I place order on web and run in, well more like hobble, well limp in and have the young dude throw the chit in my truck while I drink their coffee and plan lunch.


I like that method, when I was on my own I did it that way. I have multiple HD's and supply houses located right off Rt. 95 (main highway) so I never bothered keeping much stock. I just picked it up on the way to the job.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

MT we need to lobby for free coffee there(HD).....sales driver :laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

My "unit" 15' by 20' self storage was right next to a HD. $200 a month I had 4g internet phone. An entire mini office. It was also nice to go to on a Saturday if I needed a little peace and quite from mrs bkessler.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MTW said:


> Show us the math how this is the case.


Pete..it is common sense.... I am not going to waste my time explaining a simple concept to you.. it is a lost cause.....

Continue to "deny" what I am telling you and figure it out for yourself... :no::no:


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> Pete..it is common sense.... I am not going to waste my time explaining a simple concept to you.. it is a lost cause.....
> 
> Continue to "deny" what I am telling you and figure it out for yourself... :no::no:


Why do you have to do this every time?

It's not just Peter, I asked you to explain as well, so did Big John.

It's not common sense. You are not benefiting from buying full service change material ahead of time. It's evening out, the money works out to be exactly the same. The only difference is that you tied up cash that could have been used for a difference purpose, one that had a return on investment.

Now instead of attacking me and telling me that replying isn't worth it, please explain how you think buying all that material is going to benefit you later.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> With CU or AL?



You used up your 1 question already.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Why do you have to do this every time?
> 
> It's not just Peter, I asked you to explain as well, so did Big John.
> 
> ...


I explained it as best I could... those of you who don't understand it .. I feel sorry for.. 

IT IS COMMON SENSE...


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> Why do you have to do this every time?
> 
> It's not just Peter, I asked you to explain as well, so did Big John.
> 
> ...


I understand what he is saying. I've been buying 100' of 2/0 each service. Using about 70-80' of it on a service. 25' left over for the next job. I don't ever want to be caught short. I have plenty of extra fitting in the van, so when I go do a small service, all I have to buy is the meter pan/panel. Basicly laying out only $250 for that job. So that job is out of pocket at that time is $250.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> I explained it as best I could... those of you who don't understand it .. I feel sorry for..
> 
> IT IS COMMON SENSE...


It's not common sense, it makes no sense.

You haven't benefited, all you did was tie up cash.

Tell me HOW you think you benefited? What do you get out of buying the material months earlier? Why not just keep that cash handy and use it to buy the material right before the job?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> I explained it as best I could... those of you who don't understand it .. I feel sorry for..
> 
> IT IS COMMON SENSE...


so you mean everyone but you?

I know you have said some stupid **** in the past, but your claim now has to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever read on this forum.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

A classic thread in the making. Holy moses


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> I understand what he is saying. I've been buying 100' of 2/0 each service. Using about 70-80' of it on a service. 25' left over for the next job. I don't ever want to be caught short. I have plenty of extra fitting in the van, so when I go do a small service, all I have to buy is the meter pan/panel. Basicly laying out only $250 for that job. So that job is out of pocket at that time is $250.


I understand that you will buy some extra stuff here and there and have it available for the future.

But purposely doing that under the false notion that it is financially benefiting you makes no sense.

How does it benefit you to go out and buy all the material needed to do a service change and let it sit I your basement vs. keeping the cash instead?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> Pete..it is common sense.... I am not going to waste my time explaining a simple concept to you.. it is a lost cause.....
> 
> Continue to "deny" what I am telling you and figure it out for yourself... :no::no:


Unless you are getting the material for free, it's not "paid in full" simply by buying it ahead of time. In fact, you lost money on that material by keeping it in stock because it had no value until it was installed and paid for.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

MTW said:


> Unless you are getting the material for free, it's not "paid in full" simply by buying it ahead of time. In fact, you lost money on that material by keeping it in stock because it had no value until it was installed and paid for.


Incorrect. If I paid $1.50 per foot of 2/0 and now it costs $2.50, that's a dollar profit because I bought it a year or so ago. If I run short on a cable, I lose money and time running to the supply house. So it's a win/win situation.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> Incorrect. If I paid $1.50 per foot of 2/0 and now it costs $2.50, that's a dollar profit because I bought it a year or so ago. If I run short on a cable, I lose money and time running to the supply house. So it's a win/win situation.


You don't know that, the price could have gone down since you bought it and you would have lost money.

And B4T is not talking about copper speculation anyway.

We all order extra wire to make sure that we aren't short, and we save that wire and use it on the next job.

But it makes no sense to order lots of extra wire in anticipation of it somehow making you money in the future.

Nothing is free, that wire cost you more money. When you use it in the future, it is not free and clear, it's been paid for. At the end of the year it all evens out to be the same thing, this is basic math, anyone running a business should follow this.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> You don't know that, the price could have gone down since you bought it and you would have lost money.
> 
> And B4T is not talking about copper speculation anyway.
> 
> ...


Well, I get a lot of wire for free so it's all profit for me. Speak for yourself. It's like investing, there are bumps in the road, but it will aways go up over time.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> Well, I get a lot of wire for free so it's all profit for me. Speak for yourself. It's like investing, there are bumps in the road, but it will aways go up over time.


The point has gone right over your head.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> The point has gone right over your head.


I understand totally, arguing on the internet is like banging your head on the wall. You get frustrated and start to have a headache.:thumbsup:


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> I understand totally, arguing on the internet is like banging your head on the wall. You get frustrated and start to have a headache.:thumbsup:


Says the guy who starts the thread asking how to save money by purchasing cheaper wire and ends it by saying he gets his wire for free :laughing:

Good one, Cletis.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Me and my boss fight about this stuff all the time. I am the who cares use aluminum , stop ordering so much crap guy of the crew.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

Haxwoper said:


> Says the guy who starts the thread asking how to save money by purchasing cheaper wire and ends it by saying he gets his wire for free :laughing:
> 
> Good one, Cletis.


2/0 copper and 4/0 aluminum for free. SER and SEU I have to pay for. Hence, the need for the first post.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Im so confused


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Next72969 said:


> Im so confused


ill splain it to you tommorrw lucy!:laughing:


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Djcubinlinx said:


> 2/0 copper and 4/0 aluminum for free. SER and SEU I have to pay for. Hence, the need for the first post.


Taking the cable out of your bosses truck isn't "free".


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> Taking the cable out of your bosses truck isn't "free".


 In fantasy land, he can do whatever he wants. Me? I'm a p0rn star.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Big John said:


> In fantasy land, he can do whatever he wants. Me? I'm a p0rn star.


without pictures it didnt happen!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

papaotis said:


> without pictures it didnt happen!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Google search "Big John Pórn Star" and his pics will come up.


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

Aluminum is soft and cuddly, but copper is a hard mistress.

Anybody here use dielectric grease on the copper feeders? It's only for "high pressure connectors" because it is an insulator and must be squeezed out by the mechanical connection to allow the base metals to make contact.

Everybody knows Nolox is listed for the aluminum feeders and IMC joints. Can you use Nolox on RMC joints?

I am familiar with galvanic corrosion series but am more interested in your practical and enforcement experience here...


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*CUAL-GEL® Oxide Inhibitor Compound*

Found some new goo safe on rubber:








CUALGEL8OZ

Newest formulation designed for user & protective benefits
High quality general use non-melting, non-petroleum base compound
Specifically designed to prevent oxidation and corrosion of aluminum, copper, tin and steel
Works over a wide temperature range, sealing out moisture and air
Little or no effect on rubber and most other insulating materials
Easiest cleanup with soap and water.


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*DX Engineering Penetrox*

This one is a thick paste/putty - guys relocate it to a wide tin and use toothpicks to apply:









Ensure a proper electrical connection between aluminum and copper metal parts such as conductors, telescoping aluminum tubing, or other antenna and grounding parts
Intended to be used between all aluminum to aluminum and aluminum to copper tubing or bare conductor connections.
Compounds of a natural oil base with suspended zinc particles, which ensure high conductivity at all voltage levels by displacing moisture and preventing the corrosion or oxidation of the metal. 
Not recommended for use with rubber or polyethylene insulated wire


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*DeoxIT® Grease Cartridges*









Use with standard caulking gun. 
Superior Performance on Electrical & Mechanical Applications 
Available with copper, aluminum, graphite, quartz, Teflon or
without particles 
Convenient and Safe to Use 
Available in all L260 and M260 Greases


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*Technicians' SURVIVAL KIT Part No. SK-IN30*











DeoxIT® DN5MS-15, (Applications = 150 +/-)
DeoxIT® GOLD GN5MS-15, (Applications = 150 +/-)
DeoxIT® SHIELD SN5MS-15, (Applications = 150 +/-)
DeoxIT® D1W, Individual Wipes, 3 each
DeoxIT® GOLD G1W, Individual Wipes, 3 each
DeoxIT® D100L-2C, (Applications = 50 +/- drops, 0.04 ml/drop)
DeoxIT® GOLD G100L-2C, (Applications = 50 +/- drops, 0.04 ml/drop)
DeoxIT® SHIELD S100L-2C, (Applications = 50 +/- drops, 0.04 ml/drop)
Lint-free swabs, brushes, cloths, Display box, (8.0 x 5.0 x 1.5")


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Installing copper wires is like installing gold wires.

It's a waste of money. I would install all aluminum everywhere if the alumiphobes didn't kill the idea.


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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

*DEOX Oxide Inhibitor*










Working temperature range -40 C to 90 C
UL File E312012 Listed for 600 Volts 
PLAIN - DE-OX series is suitable for aluminum or copper terminations
ZINC - DE-OX-Z series contains flecks of zinc mixed into the plain formula for aluminum and copper terminations.
COPPER - DE-OX-C series contains flecks of copper mixed into the plain formula for copper terminations.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

markore said:


> Working temperature range -40 C to 90 C
> UL File E312012 Listed for 600 Volts
> PLAIN - DE-OX series is suitable for aluminum or copper terminations
> ZINC - DE-OX-Z series contains flecks of zinc mixed into the plain formula for aluminum and copper terminations.
> COPPER - DE-OX-C series contains flecks of copper mixed into the plain formula for copper terminations.


For what it is worth the NEC does not directly require that type of product or any of the other ones you posted.


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## Djcubinlinx (Dec 21, 2013)

BBQ said:


> For what it is worth the NEC does not directly require that type of product or any of the other ones you posted.


The AHJ requires anti-ox on all aluminum outdoor connections, not CU. But I try to use it anyways.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Djcubinlinx said:


> The AHJ requires anti-ox on all aluminum outdoor connections, not CU. But I try to use it anyways.


Unless the equipment listing requires it your AHJ is making rules up.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm still waiting for B4T to show us some real examples of how material bought ahead of time is "paid in full" for future jobs. :blink:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MTW said:


> I'm still waiting for B4T to show us some real examples of how material bought ahead of time is "paid in full" for future jobs. :blink:


It takes "common sense" to understand.. very simple concept to people who want to *learn* how to make things better when turning a profit...

You will continue to rant it "doesn't make sense".. not my problem.. :no::no:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B4T said:


> It takes "common sense" to understand.. very simple concept to people who want to *learn* how to make things better when turning a profit...
> 
> You will continue to rant it "doesn't make sense".. not my problem.. :no::no:


Then provide a real example, with numbers. If you can't teach others what with an example, then I have to conclude that what you're saying is false.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> It takes "common sense" to understand.. very simple concept to people who want to *learn* how to make things better when turning a profit...
> 
> You will continue to rant it "doesn't make sense".. not my problem.. :no::no:


So in other words you can't explain it because it makes no sense.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> It takes "common sense" to understand.. very simple concept to people who want to *learn* how to make things better when turning a profit...
> 
> You will continue to rant it "doesn't make sense".. not my problem.. :no::no:


wow....just wow

I would say that I can't believe that you are still defending your position, but that would be a lie.

You come on here and say some of the dumbest **** of any poster here and when ZERO people agree with you you still defend your position and act like everyone else is clueless.

Prepaying for material does NOT make for a higher profit no matter how many ways you want to look at it.

In lots of cases it could actually mean reduced profits.

But keep defending your position and deem the rest of us idiots.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> It takes "common sense" to understand.. very simple concept to people who want to *learn* how to make things better when turning a profit...
> 
> You will continue to rant it "doesn't make sense".. not my problem.. :no::no:


Please explain how spending money in January for material you will use in June can possibly make you more profit than if you kept that cash in the bank and spent it in June right before the job.

If it's so simple, you can explain it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So in other words you can't explain it because it makes no sense.


I have explained it.. you guys REFUSE to understand it... 

A few years I had almost $10,000 left over in cash to pay end of year taxes and bills...

It is a simple concept...buy extra in times of plenty and be rewarded when times are lean.. :thumbsup:

I can have (4) complete 200 amp. services in my shop.. ALL PARTS PAID FOR... I owe nothing to SH.. ALL MONEY is FREE AND CLEAR.. :thumbup:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> I have explained it.. you guys REFUSE to understand it...
> 
> A few years I had almost $10,000 left over in cash to pay end of year taxes and bills...
> 
> ...


 ................

how do you think something that you PAID for be FREE AND CLEAR money?

I think you need to donate your brain to science when you pass so they can study it. Would LOVE to know what the hell rattles around in that head of yours.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> ALL MONEY is FREE AND CLEAR.. :thumbup:


It's not free and clear, you took that cash out of your business checking account and invested into something that won't yield any returns.

You've LOST money by doing that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I have explained it.. you guys REFUSE to understand it...
> 
> A few years I had almost $10,000 left over in cash to pay end of year taxes and bills...
> 
> ...


I read your words and understand each one of them.

You have not saved any money, you have not gotten a reward. 

All you are doing is tying your money up.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> I can have (4) complete 200 amp. services in my shop.. ALL PARTS PAID FOR... I owe nothing to SH.. ALL MONEY is FREE AND CLEAR.. :thumbup:


How does storing 4 full service changes make you even 1 cent more than if you kept the cash in your checking account and purchased it right before doing the work?


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## Schmoppy (Jan 8, 2012)

He Charges the extra parts to jobs through out the year and when he has a full service he uses the parts on a cash job where there is no paperwork involved and thus no way to be forced to pay tax on the income. If he were to purchase the materials at the time of the job there would be a paper trail for a auditor to follow because there would be a expense but no income for it. It also sounds like he is charging the customer for all the wire purchased and not just the wire installed.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Schmoppy said:


> He Charges the extra parts to jobs through out the year and when he has a full service he uses the parts on a cash job where there is no paperwork involved and thus no way to be forced to pay tax on the income. If he were to purchase the materials at the time of the job there would be a paper trail for a auditor to follow because there would be a expense but no income for it.


This makes no sense. 

"_If he were to purchase the materials at the time of the job there would be a paper trail for a auditor to follow because there would be a expense but no income for it._" 

This is extreme silliness. He could say that he was buying stock. What auditor is going to look at him buying material and say "You didn't do a job right after, you must have done it for cash!!!"


"It also sounds like he is charging the customer for all the wire purchased and not just the wire installed."

B4T isn't charging T&M for a service change so there is no distinction in what you just said.


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## Schmoppy (Jan 8, 2012)

It all comes down to how he tags orders at the SH. If he tags everything as a stock purchase then it just follows as you say and is silly. But if he tags materials per job then having a couple of stock purchases in the slow months looks suspicious. Auditors look for things that seem out of line. If you buy stock and get audited and can't show the person that stock then there is a problem. It is assumed that is was sold under the table and that you didn't report the income.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Schmoppy said:


> It all comes down to how he tags orders at the SH. If he tags everything as a stock purchase then it just follows as you say and is silly. But if he tags materials per job then having a couple of stock purchases in the slow months looks suspicious. Auditors look for things that seem out of line. If you buy stock and get audited and can't show the person that stock then there is a problem. It is assumed that is was sold under the table and that you didn't report the income.


What fantasy land are you in where an auditor is going to want to see B4T's $400 in service material in his basement?


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## Schmoppy (Jan 8, 2012)

W/e believe what you want and ignore a plausible explanation if you wish.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Inventory is money. The ROI on inventory depends on the ability to markup the inventory cost so the cost to carry the inventory can be overcome. The most famous of inventory experts invented JIT a concept that the Japanese embraced first during the 1980s. After watching the model work so well the Americans grabbed hold of it and soon the model was the gold standard of control. Add fuel to the "cash is king" model that is an age old model. Ah what is old is new again. Given the speed and accuracy of todays computers and transportation systems that exploit air/land and or sea models inventory holding is a concept that has come and gone. A click on a cell phone and a FedEx truck can and will deliver the world to your door.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Schmoppy said:


> W/e believe what you want and ignore a plausible explanation if you wish.


The point is that your explanation isn't plausible. 

B4T said he purchased 4 service changes worth of material and is storing that for slow times because it is somehow going to lead to him making more profit. Your auditor paranoia doesn't support that theory.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> Please explain how spending money in January for material you will use in June can possibly make you more profit than if you kept that cash in the bank and spent it in June right before the job.
> 
> If it's so simple, you can explain it.


Maybe some day you'll get it.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Maybe some day you'll get it.


Not if the only two people who believe in it aren't willing to share their knowledge with the rest of us poor folk. :laughing:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I'll bite.
Let's say I bid a job for a service change.

I now have 50' of 2/0 and 25' of 1/0 left over. Current service change, customer paid for all the wire I purchased.

On the next service change, this left over wire (which is already paid for) now gets used and the current customer is charged accordingly for it.

I think this is what B4T is talking about.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I'll bite.
> Let's say I bid a job for a service change.
> 
> I now have 50' of 2/0 and 25' of 1/0 left over. Current service change, customer paid for all the wire I purchased.
> ...


You still spent the money on that wire when you purchased the extra for the first job. 

If you are charging T&M, and you are willing to order extra wire on the customer's dime and then take it with you, then you may benefit because you are stealing. But that doesn't apply to B4T because he is not charging T&M for service changes.

And it's not just extra wire, this is what he said:



B4T said:


> *I can have (4) complete 200 amp. services in my shop*.. ALL PARTS PAID FOR... I owe nothing to SH.. ALL MONEY is FREE AND CLEAR.. :thumbup:


That's a LOT of stuff that he went out and paid for.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> I'll bite.
> Let's say I bid a job for a service change.
> 
> I now have 50' of 2/0 and 25' of 1/0 left over. Current service change, customer paid for all the wire I purchased.
> ...


No it is not what he has been talking about.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

The only way B4T's model works is if the is an "EOQ". An EOQ or economic order quantity is when a supplier gives a discount based on quantity of an item that is ordered. Say 100' 0f 12/2 is .25/per foot but if you buy 1000' you'll get it at .15/per foot. Now there is money tied up in in inventory. Either way inventory management at any level is super important. Usually "break bulk quantities" are high so ones cash will be tied up if their usage is low. Maybe this is his model??? Perplexed here.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> Not if the only two people who believe in it aren't willing to share their knowledge with the rest of us poor folk. :laughing:


Why should anyone share knowledge with you,when you just attack them because you've got no idea of the concept every time.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I think what b4t is trying to say is he's usually robbing Peter to pay paul. And every once in a while he gets ahead.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Why should anyone share knowledge with you,when you just attack them because you've got no idea of the concept every time.


can you share knowledge with the other millions of people that are confused by this concept then?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Bkessler said:


> I think what b4t is trying to say is he's usually robbing Peter to pay paul. And every once in a while he gets ahead.


no one ever gets ahead that way


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Its all well and good to have some stock laying around for emergency job....but having 4 services laying around is a waste of real estate....let the SH or big box pay for storage.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Why should anyone share knowledge with you,when you just attack them because you've got no idea of the concept every time.


Wow, just wow.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RGH said:


> The only way B4T's model works is if the is an "EOQ". An EOQ or economic order quantity is when a supplier gives a discount based on quantity of an item that is ordered. Say 100' 0f 12/2 is .25/per foot but if you buy 1000' you'll get it at .15/per foot. Now there is money tied up in in inventory. Either way inventory management at any level is super important. Usually "break bulk quantities" are high so ones cash will be tied up if their usage is low. Maybe this is his model??? Perplexed here.


I think you are overestimating his thought processes.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

drspec said:


> can you share knowledge with the other millions of people that are confused by this concept then?


No, Harry won't. Hell, Harry doesn't even believe what B4T said, he only posted in this thread to troll* because he is mad at me for other things.



*There's your cue BBQ.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> No, Harry won't. Hell, Harry doesn't even believe what B4T said, he only posted in this thread to troll* because he is mad at me for other things.
> 
> 
> 
> *There's your cue BBQ.


You are doing fine on your own. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Haxwoper said:


> No, Harry won't. Hell, Harry doesn't even believe what B4T said, he only posted in this thread to troll* because he is mad at me for other things.
> 
> 
> 
> *There's your cue BBQ.


Thanks for speaking for me,I really don't know how I could ever get along in life without you.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

HARRY304E said:


> Thanks for speaking for me,I really don't know how I could ever get along in life without you.


drspec asked you a question, I informed him that you wouldn't answer it.

I was correct.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

OK, B4T thinks one thing. Seems no one agrees with him. OK, then we'll agree to disagree and stop the bickering and name calling.

No, I'm not taking sides on any points, it's just this thread hit a brick wall pages ago.


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