# Load centers



## dalafosse (May 16, 2011)

Just curious, which brand load center do you prefer and why for a 200 amp basic residential job?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Homeline. They make the best panels and the best breakers. I like QO as well but don't use it too often. I use Square D 99% of the time.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Murray


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

Seimens. All #2 square drive screws, all are backed out already. Usually 2 neutral, 2 ground bars in them. Ko's easy to remove.


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## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

Big Pickles said:


> Seimens. All #2 square drive screws, all are backed out already. Usually 2 neutral, 2 ground bars in them. Ko's easy to remove.


It's often the small things that helps a job go easier.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Remembering the PushMatics I grew up on. The neutral/ground screws ...what a treat.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mtw said:


> homeline. They make the best panels and the best breakers. I like qo as well but don't use it too often. I use square d 99% of the time.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I take it we are talking residential here, I go top end of the line for bolt on panels on commercial jobs if there is a choice I can make due to specs. 
For residential-
I use Cuttler BR series, cause they are so prevalent and I can easily obtain all I need of them at one stop. Then instead of worrying about the miniscule differences between that and other brands like homeline, I prefer to spend the energy and time to educate the brain dead zombie other trade workers who occupy the jobsite on how important it is to not shoot my wiring with nails or stack loose lumber on it, or maybe slam in a last minute piece of blocking where there is a cable running thru without bothering to even notch the wood, or the other endless jackass dangerous things they all seem to desire to do.
Protecting your wiring is where you can make a real not imagined difference in wiring safety on your installs, the plug in brands are all about the same.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

We use homeline because of the price but if price was no object I would prefer the Siemens panels. I like the standard breaker size ARC faults. Now with homeline having snap on ARC fault it may be easier but I still prefer Siemens ITE.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> i take it we are talking residential here, i go top end of the line for bolt on panels on commercial jobs if there is a choice i can make due to specs. For residential- i use cuttler br series, cause they are so prevalent and i can easily obtain all i need of them at one stop. Then instead of worrying about the miniscule differences between that and other brands like homeline, i prefer to spend the energy and time to educate the brain dead zombie other trade workers who occupy the jobsite on how important it is to not shoot my wiring with nails or stack loose lumber on it, or maybe slam in a last minute piece of blocking where there is a cable running thru without bothering to even notch the wood, or the other endless jackass dangerous things they all seem to desire to do. Protecting your wiring is where you can make a real not imagined difference in wiring safety on your installs, the plug in brands are all about the same.















Last picture was an opps, dropped it into the thread by mistake.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm getting away from anything with aluminum bus bars, you many damp basements and laundry rooms, which rules out everything but cutler CH, which is super expensive and not widely available around here, and square D QO.

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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> I'm getting away from anything with aluminum bus bars, you many damp basements and laundry rooms, which rules out everything but cutler CH, which is super expensive and not widely available around here, and square D QO.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


Siemens puts out a copper bus panel. Not too pricey either.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Lowes stocks murray, but I really don't like them. Murray, not lowes. For one thing the KO's are a nightmare.

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## jigs-n-fixtures (Jan 31, 2013)

Square D QO panels are our standard. They hold up well, the Electrical Engineer we work with likes them, and since the nearest real supply house is at best a two hour drive away, the availability to buy breakers at the local hardware store and lumberyards makes a huge difference.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

3D Electric said:


> Siemens puts out a copper bus panel. Not too pricey either.


They make them, but special order from what I'm told.
4-6 week delivery.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> Siemens puts out a copper bus panel


Siemens = Murray


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

im digging Eaton more and more.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Siemens - copper bus. The supplier deal with does not carry aluminum bus


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Siemens all the way for me. My supply house stocks them and supports them. I will use Homeline when I buy it on clearance for someone I know I will never work for again. That aluminum buss stuff is for DIY'ers.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

farlsincharge said:


> They make them, but special order from what I'm told.
> 4-6 week delivery.


They are on hand everywhere here. Maybe it's just regional though


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Almost 100% QO.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wendon said:


> almost 100% qo.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

CH CH 35 plus years no melted buss bars.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Really don't matter, 90% of burnt up busbars are attributable to somebody didn't lug in the wire good. You can do that to any brand, but really easy to do it to GE unless you attach and tighten the wire into their breakers before you clip them in. The wires can get stuck behind the back part of the GE lugs on plug in breakers and you cannot see them cause they are pointed away from visual sight area. A loose wire in a breaker is what causes the busbar to heat up and one thing leads to another ......


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

backstay said:


> View attachment 39608


Maybe you should fix the leaking water pipe illegally installed over the panel!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wendon said:


> Maybe you should fix the leaking water pipe illegally installed over the panel!


 Nice try, no water pipes, just failed QO stuff!



















It never gets old posting QO failures.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CH-CH, unless I'm matching something existing. Breakers plug on tighter than any plug on brand.

If they still made Pushmatic, I'd use those.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks be to the internet, which enables us to find scary pictures of just about anything. It's useful to figure out what exactly caused a failure, more useful to know which are more prone to failure. IMO, aluminum bus bars are major asking for trouble. 
Here's a CH fail., from HERE


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

dalafosse said:


> Just curious, which brand load center do you prefer and why for a 200 amp basic residential job?


Cutler Hammer CH series. But, in all reality most customers could careless what's installed.


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## Kunolop (Feb 9, 2013)

Since I am a Eaton Certified Contractor we use Cutler Hammer BR series 100% right now, we are looking to changing to the CH series as the price difference isn't that much anymore. They will save time when the new 2015 code book comes out with the new arc fault requirements.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Kunolop said:


> Since I am a Eaton Certified Contractor we use Cutler Hammer BR series 100% right now, we are looking to changing to the CH series as the price difference isn't that much anymore. They will save time when the new 2015 code book comes out with the new arc fault requirements.


I would not install the BR series for my worst enemy. I would put in homeline before that.


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## Kunolop (Feb 9, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I would not install the BR series for my worst enemy. I would put in homeline before that.


No big problems in ten years, the odd defective breaker but that's normal when your installing 20-25 panels a month. We were using GE when I first started the business and then went to Siemens, and then to cutler BR and would go back to either of them again.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

mikewillnot said:


> Thanks be to the internet, which enables us to find scary pictures of just about anything. It's useful to figure out what exactly caused a failure, more useful to know which are more prone to failure. IMO, aluminum bus bars are major asking for trouble. Here's a CH fail., from HERE


 I didn't get the scary picture from the internet. I have changed 4 or 5 70's Sq D panels because of breaker failures. You are seeing pictures of one of them. Here's the Siemens replacement panel.








I use to put in CH CH, now it's Siemens.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here's the whole picture spread.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> CH-CH, unless I'm matching something existing. Breakers plug on tighter than any plug on brand.
> 
> If they still made Pushmatic, I'd use those.


CH_CH breakers aren't as good as QO IMO. Pushmatic lacks magnetic trip, and were junky. 


For me its Homeline and QO for when they want the worlds finest.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> I didn't get the scary picture from the internet. I have changed 4 or 5 70's Sq D panels because of breaker failures. You are seeing pictures of one of them. Here's the Siemens replacement panel.
> View attachment 39634
> 
> 
> I use to put in CH CH, now it's Siemens.


Why not put in a 30 space 100 ampere panel there.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I just put in a QO panel. :thumbup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> I just put in a QO panel. :thumbup:


Good job. You make us proud.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

There's usually a reason for a failure. I've almost never had a failure with a QO panel. Moisture is probably one of the biggest culprits that I've seen. If I had to go to an alternative panel, it would probably be CH. My supplier can't bring Cutler Hammer into the area because another company carries that line. It's hard to figure that one out when Menards can handle about what they want to.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wendon said:


> There's usually a reason for a failure. I've almost never had a failure with a QO panel. Moisture is probably one of the biggest culprits that I've seen. If I had to go to an alternative panel, it would probably be CH. My supplier can't bring Cutler Hammer into the area because another company carries that line. It's hard to figure that one out when Menards can handle about what they want to.


 I think the water heaters are the reason. That is the breaker that always fails. Years of failed elements tripping the breaker but they never think to replace it. Just fix the element or replace the water heater.



sbrn33 said:


> Why not put in a 30 space 100 ampere panel there.


Why? These are rental houses that will never get a circuit added. The owner wants the panel replaced, not upgraded.


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

Kunolop said:


> They will save time when the new 2015 code book comes out with the new arc fault requirements.


Most brands have an arc fault ready neutral bar, and 2015 code?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> Why? These are rental houses that will never get a circuit added. The owner wants the panel replaced, not upgraded.



Good job you should be very proud. Hopefully you put that $10 you saved to good use.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Good job you should be very proud. Hopefully you put that $10 you saved to good use.


I didn't save any money, these are T&M jobs. I guess you would slam a 200 amp 40 space in there to fleece the customer. I just replace their failed panel with a...replacement. It's called giving the customer what they want. You should try it sometime.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> I didn't save any money, these are T&M jobs. I guess you would slam a 200 amp 40 space in there to fleece the customer. I just replace their failed panel with a...replacement. It's called giving the customer what they want. You should try it sometime.


No dumbass, I said I would have spent $10 more and put in a 30 space 100 amp panel as to no screw my customer down the road.
Don't act like you are doing your customer a favor by giving them a panel that is full before you even walk off the job.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> I just put in a QO panel. :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

QO is the best. :thumbup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> QO is the best. :thumbup:


Says who?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

QO is simply the best quality panel and circuit breaker you can buy.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> QO is simply the best quality panel and circuit breaker you can buy.


A majority of customer really don't care what brand of panel they end up with.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> No dumbass, I said I would have spent $10 more and put in a 30 space 100 amp panel as to no screw my customer down the road. Don't act like you are doing your customer a favor by giving them a panel that is full before you even walk off the job.


The panels are 40 years old and have never had a circuit added. Why would you put a bigger panel in? Just to make more money, at the expense of your customer? And name calling shows you as unprofessional.


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

backstay said:


> Why would you put a bigger panel in? Just to make more money, at the expense of your customer? .


Do you charge by the breaker count? I charge the same for 100 amp panel, whether 20 space or 30 space.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Big Pickles said:


> Do you charge by the breaker count? I charge the same for 100 amp panel, whether 20 space or 30 space.


 That's nice, I charge T&M by the materials and time. The difference in a 20 to 30 space Siemens is $21.48. On these panel changes, that's almost 3%. I don't like to give 3% away. Nor does my customer. And since in 40 years these rentals have never added a circuit. Why start now? There are almost 50 of these units under the control of this customer. When I Gave them a price. I thought about a CH panel, but it drove the price up by almost $2000 in materials. So when you charge the same for a 30 as a 20, you're throwing away money that adds up. You might want to tighten up your material costs as this is just one item. How much other stuff are you giving away?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> The panels are 40 years old and have never had a circuit added. Why would you put a bigger panel in? Just to make more money, at the expense of your customer? And name calling shows you as unprofessional.


That is funny because that pvc to the side sure looks like it was added in the last 40 years.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> That is funny because that pvc to the side sure looks like it was added in the last 40 years.


It's for the furnace, pretty sure the circuit was original.


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

Flat rate pricing... Not throwing money out at all. Mind telling me how much for 20 space panel change?guessing 750 ish. 
20 space siemens panel $69.00 - 30 space $86.97. Only $17.97 difference around here.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Big Pickles said:


> Flat rate pricing... Not throwing money out at all. Mind telling me how much for 20 space panel change?guessing 750 ish. 20 space siemens panel $69.00 - 30 space $86.97. Only $17.97 difference around here.


 Just a touch more, I think it was $780. $68.37 for the 20, $88.47 for the 30. Flat rate looks good, but I just haven't looked at it enough.


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

$950 is the low end average here for 100 amp swap. Depending on grounding, 1150 is norm. NE Ohio here.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Big Pickles said:


> $950 is the low end average here for 100 amp swap. Depending on grounding, 1150 is norm. NE Ohio here.


If it was a fuse panel to breaker change that would be different. Some of these changes have been more because of damage to conductors away from the panel. Grounding never changes, these are outside the state inspection authority.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

backstay said:


> The panels are 40 years old and have never had a circuit added. Why would you put a bigger panel in? Just to make more money, at the expense of your customer? And name calling shows you as unprofessional.


Do it for the children, Backstay. Do it for the children!!!:laughing: I'd probably offer it as an option. Usually, there's circuits doubled up already so a 30 space is a good option, if the customer agrees.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wendon said:


> Do it for the children, Backstay. Do it for the children!!!:laughing: I'd probably offer it as an option. Usually, there's circuits doubled up already so a 30 space is a good option, if the customer agrees.


This is a different sort of customer, they see no value in adding anything to the job. If this was a regular home, I would never go less than the 30.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

backstay said:


> This is a different sort of customer, they see no value in adding anything to the job. If this was a regular home, I would never go less than the 30.


Gotcha! A penny-pinching, money-grubbing, slumlord! :thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wendon said:


> Gotcha! A penny-pinching, money-grubbing, slumlord! :thumbsup:


No, it's a government type operation. Just not one of our governments.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)




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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)




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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Is that one of those new floor models?


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## cdub347 (Jun 26, 2014)

Siemens all the way


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## Kunolop (Feb 9, 2013)

Has anyone seen the Eaton CH panels with the built in surge suppressor or transfer switch? And if so any ideas on the prices of them?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Homeline. They make the best panels and the best breakers. I like QO as well but don't use it too often. I use Square D 99% of the time.


That narrows it down.:thumbsup:


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## suffolkmike (Dec 19, 2011)

How many of you are familiar with Eaton's blanket pricing? You can get a C-H Eaton panel for about $200. They slash their prices significantly if you buy $1000 or more in eaton products a year. I know that City Electric Supply offers it, I'm not sure if anyone else does.


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## Sbargers (Mar 28, 2013)

I have spa with Eaton. Breakers 2.85 afci 27.50 afci/gfci combo 34.00. This for all track homes customs get ch panels


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