# Who knows what this is ? dont tell what it is



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)




----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

It that for a Brazilian motor?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> It that for a Brazilian motor?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


nope. american motor, american voltage


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Good one, I knew I saw that hook up before but could not remember where.
I won't say


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Ooh ooh ooh I know, I know. pick me pick me.....lol..........I know exactly what that connection is and why you'd use it.

As requested, I won't say but I will give hint. It pertains to voltage.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Forge Boyz said:


> It that for a Brazilian motor?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I see what you did there LOL 😂


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)




----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> Ooh ooh ooh I know, I know. pick me pick me.....lol..........I know exactly what that connection is and why you'd use it.
> 
> As requested, I won't say but I will give hint. It pertains to voltage.


i figured you and cowboy knew and paul and jraef and a few more

but most of us dont and would not believe it anyway if told
myself included


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> View attachment 167454


i wasnt sure if you would know, but i am not surprised that you do


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

The only thing I can think of is that because it was made for a 3 phase 240 Service, it can run on 480 if there are 3 windings in series with each pair of legs


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> The only thing I can think of is that because it was made for a 3 phase 240 Service, it can run on 480 if there are 3 windings in series with each pair of legs


i stated the motor tag voltage as 230/460 , 12 lead


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

emtnut said:


> I see what you did there LOL


Well the math works! 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

edit


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> Well the math works!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


does that mean you know where and how to use that connection?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

well 13 ppl have looked at this and only 3 or 4 seem to know the answer

are we ready for the reveal yet? or should we wait for more ppl to look ?


----------



## mattjmurph (Oct 13, 2021)

Please reveal!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

any body else ready for the answer ?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> any body else ready for the answer ?


I want everything I got coming to me.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> I want everything I got coming to me.


in some places or instances, that could be a dangerous statement LOL


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> does that mean you know where and how to use that connection?


I believe I do. I have never done it myself, but I understand what it is for. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)




----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> I believe I do. I have never done it myself, but I understand what it is for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


i have never worked in a 600V mill so i have never heard of it or seen it

the only reason i knew about it was because i was given some papers stapled together that showed many, many motor connection schemes, including Y start- D run for various motors

other wise i would have looked at someone crazy if they just told me that
so i thought it would be interesting to see how many ppl knew about something i didnt
as well as spread some little known knowledge for others like me


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I actually thought that was for 690V supply


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> I actually thought that was for 690V supply


what do you use instead of 480V ?
it might work on your motors


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> i have never worked in a 600V mill so i have never heard of it or seen it
> 
> the only reason i knew about it was because i was given some papers stapled together that showed many, many motor connection schemes, including Y start- D run for various motors
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed this just on my first cup of Java.

should up load the paper to archive if possible for future reference and preservation of the data.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> what do you use instead of 480V ?
> it might work on your motors


We generally use 600V here.
I thought 690V was a European somewhere thing. Quick google tells me 690V is used in some Oil refineries ?

I could see that being used for any 208-230 motor here on 600V. Never seen it done before thou.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

CAUSA said:


> Sorry I missed this just on my first cup of Java.
> 
> should up load the paper to archive if possible for future reference and preservation of the data.


post #21 has the pic there free for dnldg


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

emtnut said:


> I actually thought that was for 690V supply


That's what the math tells. I thought I had read on here that some industries in South America use 690V which is why I asked about Brazil. I was thinking that some motors are rated 480/690V. One of the motor gurus would have to conform that.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> We generally use 600V here.
> I thought 690V was a European somewhere thing. Quick google tells me 690V is used in some Oil refineries ?
> 
> I could see that being used for any 208-230 motor here on 600V. Never seen it done before thou.


im not sure about 208/230 .... the pic is for 240/480
it is possible it would work, but i am leery


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'll try to memorize this drawing in case anybody ever decides to produce 600 volt supply around here for anything. I think they will find unicorn's first and maybe a Bigfoot .


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i suppose the only valid use would be in an industry using mostly 600V and needing a motor, but only having a 480 . plus it would have to be a 12 lead
a rare animal indeed unless it was a very large hp needing a part start set up


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Forge Boyz said:


> That's what the math tells. I thought I had read on here that some industries in South America use 690V which is *why I asked about Brazil*. I was thinking that some motors are rated 480/690V. One of the motor gurus would have to conform that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


LoL, I thought cause it kinda looks like a Brazilian Bikini 😂


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

I've never encountered that, and it took me a minute to see what it was trying to do. I wouldn't have thought of it in an actual application, but it makes sense in post 21.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I'll try to memorize this drawing in case anybody ever decides to produce 600 volt supply around here for anything. I think they will find unicorn's first and maybe a Bigfoot .


I'm waiting for some old Navy guy to come along and tell me Pearl Harbor uses 600v for shore supply..............


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> LoL, I thought cause it kinda looks like a Brazilian Bikini 😂


LOL ... if you turn it over it could be a thong i guess ...


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> i suppose the only valid use would be in an industry using mostly 600V and needing a motor, but only having a 480 . plus it would have to be a 12 lead
> a rare animal indeed unless it was a very large hp needing a part start set up


Actually I have run into quite a few 12 lead motors, even in small sizes. Teco and Worldwide motors use it sometimes.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> Actually I have run into quite a few 12 lead motors, even in small sizes. Teco and Worldwide motors use it sometimes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


i dont doubt they make them and in some places use them often
but in my 480V mill less than 50 hp is almost always 9 lead


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've used this connection 2 times so far, the first was a 75HP (or thereabouts.....) at a well drilling rig. This rig was powered by a 347/600 volt generator, the 575 motor burnt up and they had a 230/460 12 lead at their warehouse. 

The other time was some sort of industrial machine that came from Canada and thus was 600 volts (575 motors). This was a smaller one (25HP or so) and since 575 motors are not exactly plentiful here in northern Nevada, I got a standard 230/460 one and hooked it up for 600 volts. 

To understand how it works, you need to look at the motor as 2 separate motors in one frame. The first in a 230 ∆. Normally with a 12 lead, connected for 230, it would be a ∆∆, each coil in parallel with another one. But in this case, it's a single ∆. It wants to see 230 volts. 

The other one is 230 volt coils connected Y. In this case, 230 X 1.73 = 398 volts. This Y connection is in series with the ∆ connection so the entire motor would want to see 230 + 398 = 628 volts. 

This connection works only with a 230/460 12 lead motor.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> That's what the math tells. I thought I had read on here that some industries in South America use 690V which is why I asked about Brazil. I was thinking that some motors are rated 480/690V. One of the motor gurus would have to conform that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


If each coil was 240 volts and all 12 leads were brought out, and the connection shown in this thread was used, the motor would want to see 655 volts. A 690 volt supply would work.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

From what I've seen, most manufacturers will use 9 lead Y for motors up to 10HP. From 15 to 100, it'll be 12 lead ∆. 125 and up will be 6 lead ∆.

Baldor uses 9 lead Y up to 10HP, 15 and up is anyones guess. Some are 9 lead Y, some are 9 lead ∆ some are 12 lead ∆. 

There's no industry standard, each manufacturer uses whatever they want.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

micromind said:


> If each coil was 240 volts and all 12 leads were brought out, and the connection shown in this thread was used, the motor would want to see 655 volts. A 690 volt supply would work.


Thanks. Referencing your previous post, I had forgotten about applying the 1.73 multiplier in my math.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> i have never worked in a 600V mill so i have never heard of it or seen it
> 
> the only reason i knew about it was because i was given some papers stapled together that showed many, many motor connection schemes, including Y start- D run for various motors
> 
> ...


I never come across that one before. Being near the international border, across from the Canucks, I normally have the opposite problem, 600 or 400V equipment being imported, for connection to 480 or 240V supplies.

Euro gear can be converted for 240V delta or run on 480V, albeit at a faster speed and load, if the equipment load can handle the increases.

The 600V motors can be run on 480V at reduced HP and load, if equipment loads permit. Run them at reduced capacity until they give up the ghost, at least the 60Hz speed remains the same, so they don’t increase the loading.

We have one Canuk customer on the river at the border, and their plant was mostly put together with used 600V gear. When the motors finally quit, we replace them with 480V models and change the overloads to match the new FLC. 

Some equipment types won’t take the voltage mismatch, and will need a transformer installed. Over the years I have collected an array of transformers for adapting. From 200V Japan equipment to 600V Canuck gear. Sometimes you can build an open delta transformer bank with single phase transformers to adapt to the voltage required, but you have to look at the equipment specifics first. Other times getting the proper 3 phase transformer is the only option.


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

backstay said:


> View attachment 167454


Best motor book out there. I have the red version second edition somewhere, Green was before that, my apprentice instructor had that one.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I had a sawmill owner call me because he had a 24 lead motor on a used belt sander he bought. It would have been much simpler had the wire numbers been standard. Here is the wires numbers and the connections.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Then I had to ring out the coils.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Then I drew the circuit as wired.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Then rewire to 480 volts. Motor rewind guy at the mill said I just got lucky. But I attacked it like any troubleshooting problem, I tried to get into the head of the guy that renumbered it, as to which coil to connect to in which order.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Did you leave the hieroglyphics or did it get relabeled?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

CMP said:


> Did you leave the hieroglyphics or did it get relabeled?


I laminated a card with both 240 and 480 wiring diagrams and left the numbering for the the next generation to appreciate. After I rang out the coils, it only took me 20 minutes to figure out how it should be wired. It just was shocking to see 24 motor leads and 6 leads from the starter in the pecker head. Before that, the most I had ever seen was 12. Two speed dual voltage motor.

Sorry for highjacking the tread.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

An old fashion enigma, 24 lead two speed Dual voltage Delta wound.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> I laminated a card with both 240 and 480 wiring diagrams and left the numbering for the the next generation to appreciate. After I rang out the coils, it only took me 20 minutes to figure out how it should be wired. It just was shocking to see 24 motor leads and 6 leads from the starter in the pecker head. Before that, the most I had ever seen was 12. Two speed dual voltage motor.
> 
> Sorry for highjacking the tread.


on the contrary
i found it a very interesting addition to the thread


----------



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

For a while in the 90s, lumber mills in the US Pacific North West were going bankrupt right and left, while at the same time Canadians were opening up more and more land for timber harvesting in BC and Alberta. So Canadian lumber companies were buying up US based mills for pennies on the dollar at auctions and moving them north, where the power grid was 600V. So I saw this used a lot on many of the larger motors that were coming in with 12 leads. When they were used here in the States, a lot of them were started using Part Winding, but reconfiguring them for 600V like this meant they couldn’t do that any more, so we were building them soft starters. A number of soft starter mfrs made a bunch of money on this back in those days.


----------



## kazzak (Sep 2, 2010)

just the cowboy said:


> Best motor book out there. I have the red version second edition somewhere, Green was before that, my apprentice instructor had that one.


Hello,
I agree. I have this book and been carrying it around for over 20 years.


----------



## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

In my youth, I saw a lot of 575V motors, before all of the textile mills left. I saw an occasional 12 lead motor but at that age I never considered why they were like that. Most of our 575V motors were *three* lead motors. The company I worked for had a bad habit of finishing a machine and getting it ready to ship and suddenly remembering that the customer was 575V! Even back in the late 70s, you couldn't just rush out and buy a new 25Hp 575V motor right quick. And you wouldn't anyway if it was a used machine. We would send them to Bearden & Thompson Electric and they would rewind them for 575V and have them back in a day or two!


----------



## pokeytwo (Dec 6, 2015)

Us fellas on the border see it all the time.


----------

