# Union vote



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Does anyone out there have an opinion on the current vote regarding changes to the current contract? I would hope that only union people respond ...but an opinion is an opinion.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Does anyone out there have an opinion on the current vote regarding changes to the current contract? I would hope that only union people respond ...but an opinion is an opinion.


Each local has their own contact and decisions.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*UAW vote*



drsparky said:


> Each local has their own contact and decisions.


What is currently on the table will affect all locals.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> What is currently on the table will affect all locals.


 Well what is on the table?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What is currently on the table will affect all locals.



And the rest of the world is expected to know what is on your table?:innocent:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> And the rest of the world is expected to know what is on your table?:innocent:


 Yea, that is what I'm thinking.:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Uaw vote*

Okay, my bad. The current vote I am speaking of is the FORD vote, and there is a lot on the table. It has been and will be on the news with current information.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I was to young to vote for Ford in 1976, Jimmy Cater won, votes over.:jester:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Uaw vote*



drsparky said:


> I was to young to vote for Ford in 1976, Jimmy Cater won, votes over.:jester:






That is why most people don't remember who Jimmy CATER is.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I still don't know what you are getting at.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> That is why most people don't remember who Jimmy CATER is.


Sorry, typing to fast, Jimmy Carter.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Sorry, typing to fast, Jimmy Carter.


 I knew what you meant.:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Uaw vote*



william1978 said:


> I still don't know what you are getting at.





With GM and Chrysler kind of out of the picture Ford Motor company is wanting to re- re-open talks about changes to our current contract set to expire in 2011. They want to take away the cap of 20% LOWER TIER WAGE EARNERS as compared to the employees who have been there a while. They want to freeze wages and benefits for current employees and retirees for 6 years. They want us to give up the right to strike for increased benefits and wages when they are KING ON THE HILL again. There is a lot to it and I will say that I am very sorry for the union brothers and sisters at GM AND Chrysler for their troubles that they are having because their respective companies did not plan well enough for today's economy, but in my sorrow for them I do not want to give up ANY MORE.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> With GM and Chrysler kind of out of the picture Ford Motor company is wanting to re- re-open talks about changes to our current contract set to expire in 2011. They want to take away the cap of 20% LOWER TIER WAGE EARNERS as compared to the employees who have been there a while. They want to freeze wages and benefits for current employees and retirees for 6 years. They want us to give up the right to strike for increased benefits and wages when they are KING ON THE HILL again. There is a lot to it and I will say that I am very sorry for the union brothers and sisters at GM AND Chrysler for their troubles that they are having because their respective companies did not plan well enough for today's economy, but in my sorrow for them I do not want to give up ANY MORE.


What is a real issue that all the manufactures the union and the feds allowed was unfunded retirements.

I have no problem with Ford doing what they are, it is called business.

Our contract went into effect in June, Nov. 1 the men get a $1.00 and a $1.00 a year for the next 3 years. In a bad economy not bad.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*UAW vote*



brian john said:


> What is a real issue that all the manufactures the union and the feds allowed was unfunded retirements.
> 
> I have no problem with Ford doing hat they are it is called business.
> 
> Our contract went into effect in June, Nov. 1 the men get a $1.00 and a $1.00 a year for the next 3 years. In a bad economy not bad.


I agree...Good for you guys. Without YOU and US they could not build ANYTHING.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> The current vote I am speaking of is the FORD vote, and there is a lot on the table.


Throw away seniority. It ruins everything. We don't have such a thing.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*UAW vote*

quote=miller_elex;136091]Throw away seniority. It ruins everything. We don't have such a thing.[/quote]

I don't quite see it that way, but thanks for your response.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I am a union member and I do not believe in senority should not be the sole deciding factor in who goes and who stays. The senority systems works only when you have a employer that HAS the BALLS to fire someone is not worth a dam.
For minor issues it works well but the ultimate decision NO WAY NO HOW.
LISTEN THINK SOLVE

LC


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*uaw vote*



Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am a union member and I do not believe in senority should not be the sole deciding factor in who goes and who stays. The senority systems works only when you have a employer that HAS the BALLS to fire someone is not worth a dam.
> For minor issues it works well but the ultimate decision NO WAY NO HOW.
> LISTEN THINK SOLVE
> 
> LC


Seniority works just fine for us...to each his own.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Seniority works just fine for us...to each his own.


Okay Captain Obvious, seniority must be working, because it is one thing about unions that hardworking people in this country find distasteful.

Tell me how great seniority is working for the Autoworkers again, I need it explained to me in plain english.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*UAW vote*



miller_elex said:


> Okay Captain Obvious, seniority must be working, because it is one thing about unions that hardworking people in this country find distasteful.
> 
> Tell me how great seniority is working for the Autoworkers again, I need it explained to me in plain english.


Okay, but you have to assume that I am not an illegal alien and my ENGLISH is good enough.Sorry, I had to say that. In our plant, seniority has many facets. If the company hits a downturn the people with the least amount of time since hiring are the first to go. It doesn't make me feel good but that is the way seniority works. If a job opens up that is distasteful...if no one wants it , the lowest man has to take it. If a senior guy/girl wants a specific shift and a lower senior person is there , they switch. The consolation is that if you truly like what you do, you will do what you do, to keep the job.

RIVETER


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*Sparky*



RIVETER said:


> Does anyone out there have an opinion on the current vote regarding changes to the current contract? I would hope that only union people respond ...but an opinion is an opinion.



HEY SPARKY YOU KNOW KNOW JACK OR DO YOU???i AM i DO THIS THING RIGHT????


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*Irman*



irman said:


> hey sparky you know know jack or do you???i am i do this thing right????


does shoot yourself in the foot ring a bell, i am glad i don't work there just a visitor....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*uaw vote*



IRMAN said:


> HEY SPARKY YOU KNOW KNOW JACK OR DO YOU???i AM i DO THIS THING RIGHT????


You're not doing it right.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

Somebody cost me a thousand dollars. Strikes are left over from the stone age collective bargaining has changed....Have u noticed how BAD the world system is in? Protect your job...But I could be wrong!!!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*UAW VOTE/collective bargaining*



IRMAN said:


> Somebody cost me a thousand dollars. Strikes are left over from the stone age collective bargaining has changed....Have u noticed how BAD the world system is in? Protect your job...But I could be wrong!!!


To me, it is so simple..".If you won't pay me what I think I am worth, I won't work". It does not matter if it is ONE person , or if it is a group of people. You have to establish what you think you are worth. The company, understandably, will want to get by, paying you less than you deserve...If you don't complain, they think that you are okay with things, and are being paid WHAT you are worth.
If they are making money with you being employed there, it is their decision to pay you accordingly...or not.
Sometimes you have to take a stand and say " I deserve more".

RIVETER


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> To me, it is so simple..".If you won't pay me what I think I am worth, I won't work". It does not matter if it is ONE person , or if it is a group of people. You have to establish what you think you are worth. The company, understandably, will want to get by, paying you less than you deserve...If you don't complain, they think that you are okay with things, and are being paid WHAT you are worth.
> If they are making money with you being employed there, it is their decision to pay you accordingly...or not.
> Sometimes you have to take a stand and say " I deserve more".
> 
> RIVETER


 
(Disclaimer: The following opinion is not meant to be disrespectful. It's a point of view...possibly shared by others..)

This is an eternal, capitalistic issue...Let's say I feel I am worth $1M a year. However, no company wants to hire me at that salary - no matter what my resume says. So, I guess I just go and picket outside every company that turned me down - right? I am "entitled" to what I think I am worth, and if a company won't pay me, I will make it very challenging for them to stay in business..... Sounds a little like "extortion" to me...:whistling2:

What determines someone's salary/benefits? I'll tell you...the product's market price - and the CUSTOMER. Indirectly, the price that a product sells for must cover the cost of sales and manufacture. The manufacture of a car has a sizable amount of manual labor built into the cost. The employee pensions and other benefits also add up into the cost of the product. If the cost of the product is out of line with the *consumer expectations*, then the consumer will not purchase the product. If the product doesn't sell, the employees lose jobs and the company fails.

You can talk all day about how the multi-million dollar salaries of the top execs are unjustified - and some might be. However, you cannot run a company the size of Ford without people that have experience managing. Is the shop steward qualified to be the CEO, CFO, or COO? Why not? Just like your point, the market value of these execs is what it is - you and I have no control over that - the market does.

You can say "I Deserve More" all day long, but if you can't justify it to the employer with your increased productivity & quality metrics, perfect attendance and improved skills, then you should be denied more. With the collective bargaining system, you are rewarding everyone for either doing a mediocre or poor job individually.

What's next? Are the unions going to protest against their fellow Americans for not purchasing the product that they built? Picketing in front of your neighbor's house because he bought a Subaru instead of a Ford?

The bottom line is that organized labor's _current goal_ seems to be a *labor cartel*. An exclusive club that employers are forced to use under threat of protests, bad PR, or worse - business shutdowns.

Before you go accuse me of being anti-American or supporting un-documented, illegals, I am not talking about anyone breaking any labor laws. I am only talking about American workers legitimately competing against each other for a job. SOME will work for less, SOME will want more. In the end, you need to justify the higher salary with better skills & productivity. The customer is always looking for a better deal, and why should employer - employee relationship be any different? This is capitalism.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Larry (LJSMITH1) There is no room for facts here 'they deserve more' . :laughing:



I think that was a very well written post and I agree with you 100%.:thumbsup:


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Agreeded, excellent post Larry, well said.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> (Disclaimer: The following opinion is not meant to be disrespectful. It's a point of view...possibly shared by others..)
> 
> T
> What determines someone's salary/benefits?


Unfunded retirements that the company, feds and the union allowed will eventually cripple American unions and manufacturing. In addition local state and county governments with early retirements were they are unfunded or not properly funded will kill local governments



> What's next? Are the unions going to protest against their fellow Americans for not purchasing the product that they built? Picketing in front of your neighbor's house because he bought a Subaru instead of a Ford?


In many locals they did, they flattened the tires of non-American cars and did other "fun" things to those that shopped with their wallets in search of a better product.


Me I have always tried to make more by marketing myself both when I was open shop and union but I took what the market offered, but with my BIG BRAIN I should be getting that million a year! In lieu of the simple check I now receive.

I have said it before unions do more to hurt themselves that any concerted effort by management.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Looks like the workers rejected the changes.

http://www.ajc.com/business/ford-workers-reject-contract-179692.html


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jbfan said:


> Looks like the workers rejected the changes.
> 
> http://www.ajc.com/business/ford-workers-reject-contract-179692.html


So what will happen is Ford will open any new plants and possible relocate existing plants to Mexico, India or China or fold or go on the dole like GM and Chrysler.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I dont know of any company that outsourced it's CEO to India,China,Mexico because the American CEO was to expensive.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Good luck to you Ford Brothers.Times are tough in the auto works.Mr. Ford was fair from the start.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I dont know of any company that outsourced it's CEO to India,China,Mexico because the American CEO was to expensive.


NO because their job is to look out for the investors. If a Japanese or what ever CEO could do the job they MIGHT hire him/her.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Jack*



IRMAN said:


> HEY SPARKY YOU KNOW KNOW JACK OR DO YOU???i AM i DO THIS THING RIGHT????


I met him once.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> Good luck to you Ford Brothers.Times are tough in the auto works.Mr. Ford was fair from the start.


I agree. I have a gut feeling that Bill Ford,BILLY CLAY, as I like to call him, is a good guy. He is trying to salvage the family name without hurting others... That is why he hired Mallalley, who is not as soft hearted.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*Fair market value*

Get serious would you call these union brothers to work at your house and pay the wages????NO.... But what if you are forced to use that labor??? Scary...Is it fair market value??? Have you out priced yourselves?????? I think so...HOW CAN A PERSON MAKING TEN DOLLARS :thumbup:.in the USA....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

IRMAN said:


> Get serious would you call these union brothers to work at your house and pay the wages????NO.... But what if you are forced to use that labor??? Scary...Is it fair market value??? Have you out priced yourselves?????? I think so...HOW CAN A PERSON MAKING TEN DOLLARS :thumbup:.in the USA....


 I am honestly sorry that you only make ten dollars an hour. If you are a skilled electrician, that is not right. You know that you love what you do and want to do it in a safe manner. Sometimes companies will just squeeze you until you cry UNCLE. It is very hard to stand up ALONE....That is why others stand up with you, and that is why it is called a UNION.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> And the rest of the world is expected to know what is on your table?:innocent:



Bologna!!!!!!!


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*Message*



IRMAN said:


> Bologna!!!!!!!


I did not right that.....
:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> So what will happen is Ford will open any new plants and possible relocate existing plants to Mexico, India or China or fold or go on the dole like GM and Chrysler.


Everything has to be taken in consideration. In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.
Right now, the USA is the place to be and the companies will follow that without hesitating. The bottom line is that they are making ten dollars an hour more on OUR LABOR. If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> . If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?


Not at all, you have to work 40 get what you can


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Everything has to be taken in consideration. In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.
> Right now, the USA is the place to be and the companies will follow that without hesitating. The bottom line is that they are making ten dollars an hour more on OUR LABOR. If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?


 
Did you take into account the Euro vs US Dollar value? Is that $10/hr more including the same value in benefits? Where did you get your information??

You are not comparing apples to apples. Unfortunately, the USA is *not* the "place to be" right now for many manufacturing companies - including the auto industry. For too long, we have sat back on our laurels and watched the rest of the developed world catch up to us. Now we expect that when they get too close, we will just pick up where we left off and leave them in the dust...:no: Not so easy as it used to be. These folks have the same technology, similar skilled workforce - paid lower, and lower internal costs from lean manufacturing efforts.

When you are the best and at the top of the heap, you can charge a premium and pay higher wages - not having to worry too much about competition. Unfortunately, when you are mediocre, you can't charge premium prices, and thus have to pay a mediocre wage. 

This entitlement mentality has come home to roost....eventually something needs to give. If its not the union demands, it will be the company going bankrupt. Then NOBODY will have a job.......not even those overpaid CEO's...These folks need to ask themselves, is it worth the fight for another 2-4%/year increase during the worst time in the world economy to be asking for such a thing? Don't forget, the demands are NOT just about prevailing wages...they are about bigger dollar items like PENSIONS, FULL MEDICAL, ETC..:blink:

For me, I'd rather have a mediocre paying job than no job at all...When times are better, then I would stand up and ask for more.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or non-union*



LJSMITH1 said:


> Did you take into account the Euro vs US Dollar value? Is that $10/hr more including the same value in benefits? Where did you get your information??
> 
> You are not comparing apples to apples. Unfortunately, the USA is *not* the "place to be" right now for many manufacturing companies - including the auto industry. For too long, we have sat back on our laurels and watched the rest of the developed world catch up to us. Now we expect that when they get too close, we will just pick up where we left off and leave them in the dust...:no: Not so easy as it used to be. These folks have the same technology, similar skilled workforce - paid lower, and lower internal costs from lean manufacturing efforts.
> 
> ...


Larry, I choose to stand up for what I believe ALL OF THE TIME. That is your choice. If you always wait until the climate is good to take your stand, that makes you a follower. If you are GOOD WITH THAT, who am I to say differently?

RIVETER


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

IRMAN said:


> Bologna!!!!!!!


This is not the time to spell it right...


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Larry, I choose to stand up for what I believe ALL OF THE TIME. That is your choice. If you always wait until the climate is good to take your stand, that makes you a follower. If you are GOOD WITH THAT, who am I to say differently?
> 
> RIVETER


So I guess you like to gamble too? 

This is not about some philosophy, or dogma..It's just business...period. Whether you like it or not, you, me, and the rest of us who work for a paycheck are part of the BUSINESS ENGINE and CAPITALISM. Period. You can get all 'touchy feely' about what you think you are worth...and you can pound your chest until blood comes out your nostrils...but the only time anyone will listen is when you bring something extra to the table. 

No sir..I am not a follower...I am a climber. I climb above those who are happy with the status quo work ethic...I strive to learn all I can about the things I am involved with...to better myself and climb to another level...because I bring something else to the table that makes me worth more. By doing that, I am investing in my future and my family's well being.

I have been laid off 2x in my 21 year career...with little to no severance. My ego took a big hit the first time, by the second, I was in a better frame of mind. I had a mortgage, wife, kid...the usual stress of putting food on the plate. I didn't whine and complain and decide to picket my former employers to show them how bad they treated me. I picked myself up by my bootstraps and found another job within a very short amount of time. No welfare, no job banks, no IRA to keep me afloat...

However, once I realized that the layoffs had nothing to do with *ME* and everything to do with the business tanking, I was much better off. I immersed myself in learning something new every day, and making myself more valuable to my employer. That is how it works. I don't expect my employer to give me a raise just because I am doing what I already am compensated for. I bring something more to the table every year to demonstrate my increased value.

You sir are a follower...you follow those that fight your fight for you. You belong to a collective. I have no problem with that, and I respect your choice. But keep in mind that it is your *choice* to be a follower. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to join the club...:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.


The planes lifted-off from europe, flew over the Atlantic, flew over the good old USA, and touched down in Guadalajara.

Can't compete with Mexican labor, and no trade barriers. Isn't most of a Ford truck made in Mexico anyway? What, are you so proud that you get to put all the Mexican parts together into the finished product?

Get real. Does seniority mean much when they shut-down the whole plant? You might be a great worker, but when it comes to paying the top-notch health benefits of yourself, all those retirees, and guaranteed pensions, we can't compete with workers down south (the US south as well,) the UAW is as much to blame for lost american manufacturing jobs as much as Nafta is.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*union vote*



miller_elex said:


> The planes lifted-off from europe, flew over the Atlantic, flew over the good old USA, and touched down in Guadalajara.
> 
> Can't compete with Mexican labor, and no trade barriers. Isn't most of a Ford truck made in Mexico anyway? What, are you so proud that you get to put all the Mexican parts together into the finished product?
> 
> Get real. Does seniority mean much when they shut-down the whole plant? You might be a great worker, but when it comes to paying the top-notch health benefits of yourself, all those retirees, and guaranteed pensions, we can't compete with workers down south (the US south as well,) the UAW is as much to blame for lost american manufacturing jobs as much as Nafta is.


 The cost of labor for our vehicles, including health, is 4 to5 percent of the total price of the vehicle...Guess where a lot of the extra money goes.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*Riveter*

Good point about labor. The robots do the work. How about Ford. They are not a government owned car company. How about that profit, I am proud of that!!!!
DRIVE ONE! American oldest car maker, I know riveter that you are proud to be a part of that!!! :thumbup:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> The cost of labor for our vehicles, including health, is 4 to5 percent of the total price of the vehicle...Guess where a lot of the extra money goes.


Where do you get your numbers from?? Links?

Labor is absolutely a significant portion of a vehicle's cost - second to only materials. Not just at assembly, but at the subcomponent level as well. You need to expand your mind beyond the hourly wage mentality and include all of the other forms of compensation. Do you really want to know where the bulk of that "extra money" really goes?? *Legacy Costs...*

The pensions, Job Banks, retiree health insurance, etc. etc..All non value added costs that anyone who buys an automobile will pay for. The problem is that many of our foreign counterparts don't have these high legacy costs to deal with (they do have health care and other benefits, but mainly for active workers). Read this article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-burtless-ikenson4-2008dec04,0,2031804.story




> In today's globalized, just-in-time economy, companies need to be nimble. When the economy slows and demand shrinks, companies need to be able to cut back production and costs commensurately -- or else they shouldn't expect to survive. That has always been exceedingly difficult for high-fixed-cost industries, but one of the main reasons the Big Three has such high fixed costs is that collective bargaining has made labor a fixed cost. Yes, it has become more variable pursuant to the most recent contract, but it's still not variable enough. The infamous Jobs Bank is a perfect example. How can General Motors expect to cut costs when demand shrinks if it is obligated to pay obsolete workers almost their entire salaries for two years to not work?
> 
> According to GM's 2008 tax filing, its operating costs in 2007 were $179 billion, of which $53 billion were fixed costs. Included in those fixed costs are "manufacturing labor, pension and other post retirement employee benefits (OPEB) costs, engineering expenses and marketing related costs." The bulk of those costs is the product of labor-management negotiations. Assign blame to the parties as you see fit, but without the union in play, labor costs certainly wouldn't be so fixed -- or so high.
> 
> Total compensation is the cost of labor to the companies, and for GM it is about $73 per hour and for Toyota about $48. The average cost differential between the Big Three and all the foreign nameplate companies is about $30 per hour.


Here's a nice chart for you:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/should-we-really-bail-out-7320-per-hour.html


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or non-union*



LJSMITH1 said:


> Where do you get your numbers from?? Links?
> 
> Labor is absolutely a significant portion of a vehicle's cost - second to only materials. Not just at assembly, but at the subcomponent level as well. You need to expand your mind beyond the hourly wage mentality and include all of the other forms of compensation. Do you really want to know where the bulk of that "extra money" really goes?? *Legacy Costs...*
> 
> ...


So you are saying that you have no opinion. Why are you so upset? If you are doing everything right? Then don't worry about the rest of us and the rest of our working preferences. What have you got to hide? Are you a CLOSET union worker and fell out of favor? What gives?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

IRMAN said:


> DRIVE ONE! American oldest car maker, I know riveter that you are proud to be a part of that!!! :thumbup:


Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign? :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign? :laughing:


WOW.. great point :thumbup:

I thought Ford was strictly USA.. how did the Union ever let that happen :no:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union or non-union*



Peter D said:


> Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign? :laughing:


We, U.S. ford workers, did not ask Ford to go to foreign places for some of their vehicles. We preferred that they did not but we had no say. That does not mean that we aren't PROUD of what they allow us to build.
By the way, IRMAN, Are you from Indiana? Anyway, thanks. I am a Ford UNION worker but I definitely wish the best for all of the autoworkers... and actually for everyone,union or not, who get up every day and does their best to support their families.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Ford vans 86% manufactured in the USA highest percentage of any American Vehicle.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> Ford vans 86% manufactured in the USA highest percentage of any American Vehicle.


, I didn't know that...Thanks for your response.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> So you are saying that you have no opinion. Why are you so upset? If you are doing everything right? Then don't worry about the rest of us and the rest of our working preferences. What have you got to hide? Are you a CLOSET union worker and fell out of favor? What gives?


 
I'm not upset, just disappointed in your lack of knowledge and baseless facts that you keep spouting.:whistling2: Do a bit more research please.

As for being a "closet union worker":laughing: Too funny! LOL!

And before you accuse me of being communist or something, let me state that I have been primarily a Chrysler Corporation customer for at least 18 years. I have owned a 96 Grand Caravan, 94 & 98 Intrepid, a 01 Durango, and now a 06 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I think I have definitely done my part in supporting AMERICAN auto workers. I also just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna AWD for the wife and kids - Made (er..assembled) in America.. The only foreign vehicle I own is my 1999 BMW K1200LT motorcycle. I hope that's ok with you.:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union Vote*



LJSMITH1 said:


> I'm not upset, just disappointed in your lack of knowledge and baseless facts that you keep spouting.:whistling2: Do a bit more research please.
> 
> As for being a "closet union worker":laughing: Too funny! LOL!
> 
> And before you accuse me of being communist or something, let me state that I have been primarily a Chrysler Corporation customer for at least 18 years. I have owned a 96 Grand Caravan, 94 & 98 Intrepid, a 01 Durango, and now a 06 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I think I have definitely done my part in supporting AMERICAN auto workers. I also just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna AWD for the wife and kids - Made (er..assembled) in America.. The only foreign vehicle I own is my 1999 BMW K1200LT motorcycle. I hope that's ok with you.:thumbup:


Thank you for your service.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Thank you for your service.


 
My "service"?? :laughing: I didn't realize owning an American car is considered a "service" to the Union :001_huh:...Hmmm...maybe it is...Maybe I inadvertently contributed to the corporate greed...:blink: Maybe I am just patriotic! :whistling2:

Actually, its called giving the customer what they want. I wanted those cars, they fit within my budget, and they served me well (for the most part)...but I learned a long time ago that all dealer service is a ripoff and a joke. So I do all my own work except for warranty issues...I guess that makes me a hack....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union Vote*



LJSMITH1 said:


> My "service"?? :laughing: I didn't realize owning an American car is considered a "service" to the Union :001_huh:...Hmmm...maybe it is...Maybe I inadvertently contributed to the corporate greed...:blink: Maybe I am just patriotic! :whistling2:
> 
> Actually, its called giving the customer what they want. I wanted those cars, they fit within my budget, and they served me well (for the most part)...but I learned a long time ago that all dealer service is a ripoff and a joke. So I do all my own work except for warranty issues...I guess that makes me a hack....


Doing your own work, in my opinion, makes you a smart person...I do the same.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

So is a Honda or Toyota assembled in the USA with non-union labor and majority domestic parts better than a domestic nameplate assembled in Mexico or Canada? I really can't figure that one out with typical union logic. :laughing:


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> So is a Honda or Toyota assembled in the USA with non-union labor and majority domestic parts better than a domestic nameplate assembled in Mexico or Canada? I really can't figure that one out with typical union logic. :laughing:


You still want to be union, don't you? I could help you join, I told you that I'll give you my book.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> You still want to be union, don't you? I could help you join, I told you that I'll give you my book.


Well, I can either make the big money in the union or make the big money being self employed. Which would you choose?


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Well, I can either make the big money in the union or make the big money being self employed. Which would you choose?


Depends. 

The same money and the same hours?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> Depends.
> 
> The same money and the same hours?


Of course not. Being self employed means way more hours than punching a clock. But, I don't think you can compare being an hourly worker to owning a business. Apples to oranges really.


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Of course not. Being self employed means way more hours than punching a clock. But, I don't think you can compare being an hourly worker to owning a business. Apples to oranges really.


I like a big paycheck for 40 hours a week. Damn the man.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Of course not. Being self employed means way more hours than punching a clock. But, I don't think you can compare being an hourly worker to owning a business. Apples to oranges really.


Oddly enough, I've been on both sides, and agree with both of you. But I sure do miss those 11;00 P.M. calls to people who I trusted to pay me YESTERDAY.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Well, I can either make the big money in the union or make the big money being self employed. Which would you choose?


 
I do not think I could work for someone else again. 24 years of doing what I want to. Coming late 5:00-6:00 AM leaving early 7:00-8:00 PM long vacations (at one point I went 4 years without missing a day and that included most saturdays and a few Sundays), working all the holidays.
:thumbup:
I WOULD NOT trade this for nutin.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*union vote*



brian john said:


> I do not think I could work for someone else again. 24 years of doing what I want to. Coming late 5:00-6:00 AM leaving early 7:00-8:00 PM long vacations (at one point I went 4 years without missing a day and that included most saturdays and a few Sundays), working all the holidays.
> :thumbup:
> I WOULD NOT trade this for nutin.


Most people would agree that it is truly rough to be on your own, in your business. Sometimes, employees think that you must be rolling in the dough because you pay them their wages every week.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Oddly enough, I've been on both sides, and agree with both of you. But I sure do miss those 11;00 P.M. calls to people who I trusted to pay me YESTERDAY.


OK there is a BIG difference......It is call responsible ....


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Most people would agree that it is truly rough to be on your own, in your business. Sometimes, employees think that you must be rolling in the dough because you pay them their wages every week.


I could reach thorough the screen and slap you but wait you may slap me back??? Are U band it is my name

:thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> (Disclaimer: The following opinion is not meant to be disrespectful. It's a point of view...possibly shared by others..)
> 
> This is an eternal, capitalistic issue...Let's say I feel I am worth $1M a year. However, no company wants to hire me at that salary - no matter what my resume says. So, I guess I just go and picket outside every company that turned me down - right? I am "entitled" to what I think I am worth, and if a company won't pay me, I will make it very challenging for them to stay in business..... Sounds a little like "extortion" to me...:whistling2:
> 
> ...


*Of course, for the employer they want that competition between employees. But for employees - the best route is to organize together and tell the employer to f off. And it works!*
:thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> The planes lifted-off from europe, flew over the Atlantic, flew over the good old USA, and touched down in Guadalajara.
> 
> Can't compete with Mexican labor, and no trade barriers. Isn't most of a Ford truck made in Mexico anyway? What, are you so proud that you get to put all the Mexican parts together into the finished product?
> 
> Get real. Does seniority mean much when they shut-down the whole plant? You might be a great worker, but when it comes to paying the top-notch health benefits of yourself, all those retirees, and guaranteed pensions, we can't compete with workers down south (the US south as well,) the UAW is as much to blame for lost american manufacturing jobs as much as Nafta is.


How is the UAW to blame? You think cars would cost the American consumer less all these years if the UAW never demanded 1/2 of what they're getting now?

So much is manufactured in Mexico and those workers earn less in a day than a UAW worker earns in an hour. So.. where is the price break for consumers? NAFTA is the CAUSE of these problems - NO COUNTRY with standards like the USA can compete on labor with a 3rd world hellhole like Mexico - the bigger question is, WHY should we?

Just because we can (have NAFTA) doesn't mean we should. (Have free trade.) Nobody "gained" except corporate profits, and those were NOT folded into new business or opportunities in the USA (as promised...) 

What the US needs to do is CLOSE the borders and end free trade and get the jobs back into this country.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*foreign trade*



Peter D said:


> So is a Honda or Toyota assembled in the USA with non-union labor and majority domestic parts better than a domestic nameplate assembled in Mexico or Canada? I really can't figure that one out with typical union logic. :laughing:


So what was the last time u got a check from a foreign country?????Stupid .......shoot yourself in the foot...........


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Of course, for the employer they want that competition between employees. But for employees - the best route is to organize together and tell the employer to f off. And it works!*
> :thumbup:


 
Who or what do you think determines the market value of labor?? You, your union, some board of directors somewhere? 

What you fail to realize and accept is that labor is a commodity. You won't accept it because you probably equate it with "pork rhinds" or "grain futures". Sad as it may seem, our labor is the only thing we have to sell that is truly ours. So, if the employer is offering $X/hr, and you want $Y/hr, there is no deal. If all of your competition wants the same $Y/hr, then the employer is going to realize that the going rate is not $X/hr but $Y/hr. and then there will be a deal. We don't live in a "one price fits all world".

What you also fail to recognize is that TWO parties need to agree for employment to occur. If your tactic is to hold the employer "hostage" to get what you want, then don't be surprised if the employer goes out of business rather than sign up for something that they can't sustain. I'm sure that you wouldn't care anyway because you probably believe in a "scorched earth" policy. That is, if the company does not give into your demands, put them out of business by striking and severely disrupting the business. 



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *IS it your position that because you can get someone else who is better and more productive to work for less, that all the rest who are less productive are overpaid? *


Uh...yes. I believe that compensation is tied to contribution to the company. That's how most people are paid. My employer only owes me for what I have worked for. I only owe them my continued labor "product".



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Is the name of the game for workers titled: "Race to the bottom?" Is that the name of your game too, or, is it just the employees who have to partake in that folly for the benefit of an employer?*


It's not "MY" game, nor is it a "race to the bottom"...Let me explain again...its the market that determines the cost of labor. If all candidates are in a salary range, than that range becomes the market price. EVERYONE has a price, some are higher or lower than others. There will be no "bottom" as you put it because even those that value their services less than you have a limit on what they can live on. Just like you won't want to overpay for something, employers are in the same boat with materials, services, and of course, labor.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *I would hardly describe all workers banding together a cartel, thet's be 85% of the country.*


Definition for Labor Cartel:
It is a formal organization of trade labor that agrees to coordinate and control wages and labor resources for those that require the trade labor. The aim of such collusion is to increase individual members' wages by reducing or eliminating competition.

Here's an article that goes into detail.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/200905...labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy.html

Couple of quotes from that article:



> "A labor cartel restricts the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers' wages, just as the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) attempts to cut the supply of oil to raise its price.Companies pass on those higher wages to consumers through higher prices, and often they also earn lower profits. Economic research finds that unions benefit their members but hurt consumers generally, and especially workers who are denied job opportunities. "
> 
> "Unions' role as monopoly cartels explains their opposition to trade and competition. A cartel can charge higher prices only as long as it remains a monopoly. If consumers can buy elsewhere, a company must cut its prices or go out of business. "


Now, I am sure you will want to bash me repeatedly about the head, neck and face, but there are plenty of folks that are of the same opinion. In your mind, we are all wrong - and that's fine. You go on and believe what you want, and I'll do the same. 

What you need to realize and accept is that the bottom line is competition is EVERYWHERE. From your kids school, to the local grocery store, to the world economy. Unions despise competition in a competitive world because it interferes with their growth and sustainability.

I am not trying to change you, just explain a different point of view.:thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

IRMAN said:


> So what was the last time u got a check from a foreign country?????Stupid .......shoot yourself in the foot...........



I was responding to Riveters comment of "Buy a Ford." It's not as cut and dry as simply imploring someone to buy an American nameplate anymore but I think that went over your head.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Ouch. "U" got me. :roll:
> 
> I was responding to Riveters comment of "Buy a Ford." It's not as cut and dry as simply imploring someone to buy an American nameplate anymore but I think that went over your head.


 
This thread is so entertaining I could scream.:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

To expand this a little further: In the late 90's I owned a Ford F150 - assembled in Canada. My dad has owned two Dodge Ram trucks in the past 10 years, both of which were assembled in Mexico. My parents owned a Crown Victoria - assembled in Canada. 

Just this past weekend I was at Ford dealership looking for a new car. The two models I was interested in were assembled in the cities of Oakville and Hermosillo. If you're a geography buff, then you'll realize that neither of those cities is in the United States. 

Point being - it's all well and good to say "Buy an American vehicle." Read the fine print to see if the American-brand vehicle you're buying is indeed an American vehicle. There's a good chance it may not be.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Its funny how if a few business owners get together and agree to set their rates is called collusion, but when a few electrician get together to set their rates its called organizing.

Practices that facilitate tacit collusion include:


Uniform prices
A penalty for price discounts
Advance notice of price changes
Information exchange
Sound familiar: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Its amazing what PAC money can get you...


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Its funny how if a few business owners get together and agree to set their rates is called collusion, but when a few electrician get together to set their rates its called organizing.
> 
> Practices that facilitate tacit collusion include:
> 
> ...


 
That collusion stuff is everywhere! Phone companies, airlines, milk, steel, etc...:001_huh: OPEC... 

IMHO ALL PAC money has corrupted the core of the USA government - I don't care where it came from.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> That collusion stuff is everywhere! Phone companies, airlines, milk, steel, etc...:001_huh: OPEC...
> 
> IMHO ALL PAC money has corrupted the core of the USA government - I don't care where it came from.


I cant argue with that, you hit the nail on the head.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Who or what do you think determines the market value of labor?? You, your union, some board of directors somewhere?
> 
> *None of the above. What determines the value of one hour of labor is what we and our contractors agree to. *
> 
> ...


*Your point of view is way to simplistic for a man like me. Try your stunt on some Southern imbred yokel.*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Its funny how if a few business owners get together and agree to set their rates is called collusion, but when a few electrician get together to set their rates its called organizing.
> 
> *The difference beinng, business is supposed to compete. Workers are not. This is the "playing field."*
> 
> ...


*Or sheer ignorance...*


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Your point of view is way to simplistic for a man like me. Try your stunt on some Southern imbred yokel.*


Nobody is listening to you or cares about what you have to say.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Your point of view is way to simplistic for a man like me. Try your stunt on some Southern imbred yokel.*


Wow, a tough guy who thinks he is so smart. It's too bad you are thoroughly brainwashed to see the real world. 

Actually, if you are so smart, how come you are not running your own outfit? That way you can show everyone else how its done!

Good luck with your cause.:thumbsup:

I shouldn't be wasting my time with your informative rhetoric...


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Don't bother he is a FLE that not only drinks the cool-aid, he is one of the guys mixing the pitchers and passing it out.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Nobody is listening to you or cares about what you have to say.


You seem to, based on your replies.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Wow, a tough guy who thinks he is so smart. It's too bad you are thoroughly brainwashed to see the real world.
> 
> *Been on boths sides of the fence LJ, I've seen a lot. There IS brainwashing from BOTH sides I can 1/2 agree with you there. But the real brainwashing is either side assuming their's is the only correct perception or point of view. *
> 
> ...


*I don't think there are too many outfits I can tap into who don't kow "how it's done." And... I'm smart enough to know my limitations and my faults and my weaknesses. I LIKE clocking out and putting it all behind w/o a care or a worry... and I can assure you, going off on my own, save for some quick cash sidework is the SMARTEST thing I've never done. *


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Your point of view is way to simplistic for a man like me. *


He would have to be a door knob to be simpler than your posts make you appear.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> He would have to be a door knob to be simpler than your posts make you appear.


 
..and I know I am not a door knob....





....at least this week I'm not...:jester:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't think there are too many outfits I can tap into who don't kow "how it's done." And... I'm smart enough to know my limitations and my faults and my weaknesses. *I LIKE clocking out and putting it all behind w/o a care or a worry...* and I can assure you, going off on my own, save for some quick cash sidework is the SMARTEST thing I've never done.


 
Well, then good for you. :thumbsup: 

Just leave the hard part about actual business performance, risk, responsibility, and operations to someone else. No wonder you have a hard time understanding what that is all about. It all makes sense now.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> ..and I know I am not a door knob....


Nope, we may disagree on some subjects but I have never once thought of you as simplistic. 

But I think you have an uphill fight.

When you ask this question



LJSMITH1 said:


> Who or what do you think determines the market value of labor?? You, your union, some board of directors somewhere?


And the response is this ..



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> None of the above. What determines the value of one hour of labor is what we and our contractors agree to.


We have to realize the person responding has no clue of real life, they have become entirely assimilated to life in their own little spot in the world they work in and the union they belong to. They can not look beyond that area or even acknowledge another area exists.

The troubling thing to me is they hide behind some moral high ground of 'workers rights' when it is clear it has little to do with anyones rights and everything to do with the income of a specific small group.

They certainly do not care or respect a workers right not to be in a union. 

The above is definitely not aimed at all union workers, hell no. Only the over the top ones that can only see one side of anything. 

I fully admit that there is good and bad on both sides. There are a lot of open shop owners that do take advantage of their worker, I just see that as more of an issue for an indivdule to deal with on their own. 



> ....at least this week I'm not...:jester:


:laughing:


Yeah we all have our days.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Nope, we may disagree on some subjects but I have never once thought of you as simplistic.
> 
> But I think you have an uphill fight.


Actually, I am not even trying to fight or argue with him, I was just imparting another point of view (debate), to which he becomes defensive. :blink: The good thing is that we can disagree on something and still respect each other in the morning.:laughing:



Bob Badger said:


> We have to realize the person responding has no clue of real life, they have become entirely assimilated to life in their own little spot in the world they work in and the union they belong to. They can not look beyond that area or even acknowledge another area exists.


That part sums it up nicely. He will obviously defend his situation as it is enriching him to his satisfaction. :blink:



Bob Badger said:


> The troubling thing to me is they hide behind some moral high ground of 'workers rights' when it is clear it has little to do with anyones rights and everything to do with the income of a specific small group.


Again, nicely put.:thumbsup:



Bob Badger said:


> They certainly do not care or respect a workers right not to be in a union.


This is what I meant in a previous post about being "militant". Like I also said, live and let live. Its fine for him and others to "belong" and I can respect that. However, the moment they start attacking other, hard-working, AMERICAN citizens, is when I have a problem. Nobody is talking about illegal, undocumented workers taking jobs that unions want. 



Bob Badger said:


> I fully admit that there is good and bad on both sides. There are a lot of open shop owners that do take advantage of their worker, I just see that as more of an issue for an indivdule to deal with on their own.


I also realize that too. Not having been union at any point in my career (as a mechanic, marine engineer, or in manufacturing), I have always believed that if I don't like a situation, I will take care of it myself. My first job lasted 7 years. I wanted to grow (i.e. gain more responsibility), but the 2 owners couldn't agree on what level. So after waiting for a year for them to decide, I decided to leave and go somewhere else. Turned out to be the best decision in my career. I have experienced more technology and gained more valuable skills than I would have if I had remained a 'lifer' at my first company. 

My skills, experience, and education dictate my market value. Its not a professional group or other organization that creates the value point.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Nobody is listening to you or cares about what you have to say.


 You are wrong I am listening and I care what he has to say


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

rewire said:


> You are wrong I am listening and I care what he has to say


Why am I not surprised? :laughing:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> My skills, experience, and education dictate my market value. Its not a professional group or other organization that creates the value point.


 Your employer dictates your market value.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

rewire said:


> Your employer dictates your market value.


No, not unless the employer is somehow forcing Larry to work there.

What is hard for you to understand? Larry puts himself back on the market and the market determines his labors value.

If there are to many people seeking the same type of job the value of Larry's labor drops. At that point Larry has a choice, accept the lower pay or change what he does.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

rewire said:


> Your employer dictates your market value.


In a way you are correct, the only problem is as an employer if you dictated them too high, some other employer may dictated them as a lessor value then he gets your work and you don't have any, so you lay your guys off who either choose to work at what the market has accepted or sit on the bench and grumble about the other guy.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you can argue these points ad infinitum. labor unions (understandably) have a hard time accepting deductions in wages. The achilles heel of the labor unions is the inability to establish wages which fluctuate on the marketplace demand (also understandable). Unfortunately, when the contractors, factories, or (whomever) are going under, it is only then that the unions will cede concessions, and usually too late to do anything but delay the inevitable. the manufacturing base of this country is overpriced, therefore it is being shipped elsewhere. concede or die; these are the alternatives. It is unfortunate that, on the other side of the coin, management is also to blame for not making their own fat pay performance based. If it was, then the ceo's and their golden parachutes would be a thing of the past, and unfortunately that also plays into the demise of the large sectors that are currently going under. but, back to my point: this will heal itself. Industries that can't survive, won't survive, and no amount of pissing and moaning is going to change that. It will fix itself, and whatever shakes out shakes out.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No, not unless the employer is somehow forcing Larry to work there.
> 
> What is hard for you to understand? Larry puts himself back on the market and the market determines his labors value.
> 
> If there are to many people seeking the same type of job the value of Larry's labor drops. At that point Larry has a choice, accept the lower pay or change what he does.


Well put Bob. The only other thing I would add is "..or obtain more skills and qualifications and increase my market value." :thumbsup:.

In the case of "white collar labor", many employers rely on salary surveys (like payscale.com or salary.com) to determine market value range. When I go interview for a job, the employer already has an idea of what they are willing to pay me for the base qualifications. However, if I have those PLUS a few more that I bring to the table, I may be hired at the top end of the scale. I could also negotiate a 6 month review into the deal as well as vacation or personal time off. Again, its what else is brought to the table that increases my value in the market. The only way I get that extra stuff is by learning every day.:thumbsup:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No, not unless the employer is somehow forcing Larry to work there.
> 
> What is hard for you to understand? Larry puts himself back on the market and the market determines his labors value.
> 
> If there are to many people seeking the same type of job the value of Larry's labor drops. At that point Larry has a choice, accept the lower pay or change what he does.


 The employer sets the value The labor pool has a part and even unions have a part but it still comes down to the employer and what value he sets on the labor.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Actually is more like IBEW sets the value and then beats you do death with an inside agreement that you can barely live with in good times and cant make at all work in bad times, and lets be honest here IBEW is in the minority nation wide and losing market share in every market.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Actually is more like IBEW sets the value and then beats you do death with an inside agreement that you can barely live with in good times and cant make at all work in bad times, and lets be honest here IBEW is in the minority nation wide and losing market share in every market.


 what part of the agreement can't you live with, the pay, the benefit package,the holidays,vacation time working hours,overtime,what tools you provide?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*What is in your backyard...*

This is not an appropriate time or venue for me to discuss specifics of my inside agreement, in fact it would be stupid to do so here. The fact that I am 13 out of 15 on my last bid tab says a lot about the fact something’s have to change.

Pigs get fat, and hogs get slaughtered, and right now union shops are getting slaughtered in my part of the woods, and IBEW as a whole only represents 10% of the US electrical market as per the DOL statistics and has been steadily losing market share for 20 years.

Instead of asking me what I cant live with, you should be asking yourself why IBEW is losing market share, what can you live without to recover it?


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Actually is more like IBEW sets the value and then beats you do death with an inside agreement that you can barely live with in good times and cant make at all work in bad times, and lets be honest here IBEW is in the minority nation wide and losing market share in every market.


What is it you can't live with?? Beats you to death with an inside agreement? Cry me a river. An agreement that protects us from being taken advantage of? If you can complete the training we are required to go through, working inside the agreement (that is agreed upon by us) is nothing more than knowing we are entitled to a safe work place with people who at a minimum have had the training I have. 

How is it hard to swallow that an organization invest money into a young man or woman to give them an education and provides them with multiple company's to work for and a good wage. Yes they make money off of our dues. Have I ever had to look for a job in 15 years? NO. Go ahead and call it drinking the cool-aid or being held down by the man. I spent 5 years of my life going to school and had to work close to 10000 hours for my JW card. For that, I expect a decent wage package. Am I ashamed for being one of the higher paid electrician I know. Hell No. Most of my friends that are non union are great at what they do but have had a fraction of the education i had to do. (No need to argue value, we have beaten that horse one too many times). Almost all of them worked for different outfits for a number of years until they were told congrats your a JW.... oh and by the way we cant afford you anymore. The difference between them and me is they had to hit the classifieds and find work. Is this fair? 

Yes there is crap in our local just like there is crap in the non union sector... these people are increasingly ruining our creditability as the economy gets worse. 

We were built on the fact that people would pay top dollar in exchange for a company who employs trained personnel, has adequate tools and a lot of times work under a PLA. These days are over as quality is often overlooked by price. Our integrity and high level craftsmanship is all we could offer for our high prices. Customers don't care anymore as long as the plugs are hot and the lights fire up. 

I'm sorry if this comes off like a rant but I'm sick of people portraying us as if we are working under this lead umbrella of rules. I lace up my boots and go to work just like everyone else. As Bob Badger stated before it's not for everyone. This isn't a direct jab at the non Union but more at the people who speak from hearsay about the agreement I work under.

BTW- Phatelvis, I suggest quit talking about FLE's. Your lack of education on them doesn't need to be spread across this forum. And no, I am not one but close to a few.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

bward76 said:


> What is it you can't live with?? Beats you to death with an inside agreement? Cry me a river. An agreement that protects us from being taken advantage of? If you can complete the training we are required to go through, working inside the agreement (that is agreed upon by us) is nothing more than knowing we are entitled to a safe work place with people who at a minimum have had the training I have.
> 
> How is it hard to swallow that an organization invest money into a young man or woman to give them an education and provides them with multiple company's to work for and a good wage. Yes they make money off of our dues. Have I ever had to look for a job in 15 years? NO. Go ahead and call it drinking the cool-aid or being held down by the man. I spent 5 years of my life going to school and had to work close to 10000 hours for my JW card. For that, I expect a decent wage package. Am I ashamed for being one of the higher paid electrician I know. Hell No. Most of my friends that are non union are great at what they do but have had a fraction of the education i had to do. (No need to argue value, we have beaten that horse one too many times). Almost all of them worked for different outfits for a number of years until they were told congrats your a JW.... oh and by the way we cant afford you anymore. The difference between them and me is they had to hit the classifieds and find work. Is this fair?
> 
> ...


 :clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

bward76 said:


> These days are over as quality is often overlooked by price. Our integrity and high level craftsmanship is all we could offer for our high prices. Customers don't care anymore as long as the plugs are hot and the lights fire up.


And why should these customers care about anything more than that? Isn't it their right to spend their money as how they see fit?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Instead of asking me what I cant live with,* you should be asking yourself why IBEW is losing market share, what can you live without to recover it?*



If you guys _really_ care about the union you should be thinking about what the Big E says above.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> IBEW is in the minority nation wide and losing market share in every market.


You're right about nationwide. You're wrong about every market.


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

Peter D said:


> And why should these customers care about anything more than that? Isn't it their right to spend their money as how they see fit?


To start, i will remind you that I am currently working for a controls contractor so I am often working side by side with non Union electricians. We all can spot crappy work when we see it but under this mind set the Sheetrock will cover up most mistakes. 

This took place at a school I was working at over the summer. The rat and yes I mean rat company wired the entire school in MC. Unfortunately this is becoming a standard and there is no arguing faster and cheaper. In the picture below you will see a typical 277/480 v panel wired by a special crew they brought in. If you look close it's wired with low volt mc cable. Once again not illegal but I can honestly say I have never been asked to do this by any company I've worked for. Doesn't matter because all of the plugs and lights work fine correct? Be sure to check out the following pics.












Well here's where all of their savings cost can affect the customer. After all we are just looking for plugs to work and lights to come on and everyone's happy correct?











See a problem here!! I guess they were getting paid by the volt. Not to mention the coffee streaks they had spilled on a finished wall. Whats does $10 an hour less get you? What's your kids hand worth when he/she plugs their ipod in this outlet. This is a large 150+ man contractor who does mostly schools. I brought it to their superintendents attention on day 2 of this not being taken care of and i finally turned it off and covered up with a warning on day 3. Your correct, it is their money to spend how they want, but this is an outlet that anyone could have plugged something into.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

bward76 said:


> This took place at a school I was working at over the summer. The rat and yes I mean rat company wired the entire school in MC. Unfortunately this is becoming a standard and there is no arguing faster and cheaper.


Yeah, better get used to it especially in times like these. Furthermore there is nothing wrong with MC cable other than it takes less time to install which certain labor organizations don't like. 





> Well here's where all of their savings cost can affect the customer. After all we are just looking for plugs to work and lights to come on and everyone's happy correct?


So by inference we can assume that union electricians and contractors never make a mistake? They produce jobs that are 100% free of defects every single time? Pointing out a 277 volt receptacle doesn't prove anything. It proves someone made a mistake.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union Vote*

Okay, either the photo was rigged for effect or someone ran branch circuits from the wrong panel. The panel looked like a lighting panel...is there typically 277 volt lighting fixtures in a school with eight foot ceilings. I honestly don't know. Just asking. 
I can't possibly know everything, just ask my wife.


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, better get used to it especially in times like these. Furthermore there is nothing wrong with MC cable other than it takes less time to install which certain labor organizations don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of coarse we all make mistakes but I can honestly say in 15 years i have never seen this. After watching this crew argue and run around like they did, i can see how they let it happened. Furthermore, they left it at that voltage and the deadfront off for 3 days. I wish I had taken a picture of the 6' ball of MC above all of the panels. 

I agree that MC is an acceptable method if installed correctly as i have had to run miles of it myself. . Please note I am not insinuating that all of you guys with rat avatars are this way. I am merely pointing out the fact that it is up to us (all of us) to give the customer what they pay for.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You're right about nationwide. You're wrong about every market.


Yes you are correct the government employees unions are booming. Exactly who those unions are protecting the workers against is beyond me though....could it be the tax payers?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

bward76,

I wrote this 4 page snarky rebuttal telling you what for and pointing out the errors in your logic, then because I had to fire some of your brothers for stealing copper I ended up spending the rest of the day doing service calls. Normally I would have just put a call in and replaced them but times are slow and with your labor rates I cant even give work away and doing a few calls was a welcome break from the begging, groveling and kissing ass for work that I was not going to get anyways.

This is not hearsay, I have an inside agreement and the market at this time does not support it and my business can’t survive with it as it is now. There will be some changes. Blame Bush, blame the man blame us greedy EC or whoever IBEW tells you the problem is, but simple economics is dictating a change and the workforce will have to accept it and get back to work or sit on the bench and whine. I really don’t care, which. 

Still have not decided whether to post that long inflammatory rant or not. It wont really change any minds or hearts, but it felt good witting it.


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Okay, either the photo was rigged for effect or someone ran branch circuits from the wrong panel. The panel looked like a lighting panel...is there typically 277 volt lighting fixtures in a school with eight foot ceilings. I honestly don't know. Just asking.
> I can't possibly know everything, just ask my wife.


That's a photo I took with my phone with my dirty hand. The panel fed lighting and HVAC equipment. All 277 volt lighting. I asked my wife and she said that even between you and I we don't know everything.:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Union Vote*



bward76 said:


> That's a photo I took with my phone with my dirty hand. The panel fed lighting and HVAC equipment. All 277 volt lighting. I asked my wife and she said that even between you and I we don't know everything.:laughing:


What kind of phone was it?:thumbup:


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What kind of phone was it?:thumbup:


Google G1 --Tmobile I can't say enough great things about it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

bward76 said:


> Google G1 --Tmobile I can't say enough great things about it.


I don't know what that is...The last cell phone I used, I couldn't get through the BARS after calling my lawyer

Proud member of LOCAL 369


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*You want a rant? Here ya go…*



bward76 said:


> ]What is it you can't live with?? Beats you to death with an inside agreement? Cry me a river. An agreement that protects us from being taken advantage of? If you can complete the training we are required to go through, working inside the agreement (that is agreed upon by us) is nothing more than knowing we are entitled to a safe work place with people who at a minimum have had the training I have.


 Do you honestly think that IBEW has anything to do with jobsite safety or protects you in any way? How naïve you must be. As a contractor I fear OSHA and lawyers about a thousand times more than IBEW and as all contractors have learned jobsite safety is more than a choice its either the biggest liability you can have or its almost a profit center because of what you can save in insurance, you can even sell your work at a higher rate with the right insurance modifiers. The biggest safety issues I have now are IBEW not following rules, not wearing hard hats, not wearing safety glasses, and not doing lock out tag out procedures, and not passing drug tests. Here is a clue for you… that inside agreement does not do jack for your safety. Maybe a 100 years ago trade union did a lot for job site safety, but our legal lottery mentality and the growth of the legal community and ambulance chasing has done more for your safety than any union ever has, ever will, or even ever could do. 

Before you wax on and on about you and your brothers superior training, I have to point out that while there are some damn fine electricians that come out of the program there are also quite few that just don’t cut the mustard. I could post several hundred megs of picture of your brothers work that is just plain embarrassing. If pride means so much then maybe some of your brothers should read 110.12 and consider the words and what that might mean when you put them all together in a sentence like that. 

All electricians are not created equal, some are true craftsmen and fantastic mechanics while others aren’t fit to work at McDonalds. I call my best electricians mechanics their work is perfect and we take pictures of it for bragging rights. Out of eight of my best mechanics only 3 went through the JATC, and all three of my very best foreman did not go through the program at all and were organized out of a non-union shop. IBEW brings manpower with lots of strings to the table, but there is no guaranty of quality, or that the man standing next to you knows what he is doing, is sober, or that you are any safer working next to him than a non-organized person.



> How is it hard to swallow that an organization invest money into a young man or woman to give them an education and provides them with multiple companies to work for and a good wage.


Where do you think that money comes from that IBEW so generously invests? Read your agreement for yourself, see how much we as contractors invest in that program, and no it’s not just part of your pay otherwise it would be taxed. You do know IO controls it completely and we have little to no say in how its run, and that while the market is always changing; the program is very slow to any change. You should also know that IEC also has a program; IBEW is not the only game in town… http://www.ieci.org/index.mv?screen=BecElect&xsub=1 

While the union boys are busy calling everyone else rats, scabs, greedy, unsafe and un-organized the non-union shops are quite happy that you think so little of them as they are very organized and quietly take your work away. Look in your code book, note that IEC members sit in just as many code councils as do IBEW. Those rats are quite and a lot smarter, and a lot more qualified than IBEW would lead us all to believe. Since IBEW and your brothers don’t have a clue about business, I going to let you in on another important part of business: Pay attention to what your competition is doing. By labeling and looking down your nose at the open shops you have put blinders on and can’t see what is right in front of you. 



> Yes they make money off of our dues. Have I ever had to look for a job in 15 years? NO. Go ahead and call it drinking the cool-aid or being held down by the man.


 Really, a non-profit making money? Do you think your dues amount to anything? Seriously? The dues are chump change compared to the $9 per hour in fringes I pay for your labor. As for your 15 years, that is the first positive thing you wrote it implies you are actually worth a sh1t, especially if it’s for the same contractor. Can you say the same for every member of your local?


> I spent 5 years of my life going to school and had to work close to 10000 hours for my JW card. For that, I expect a decent wage package.


Big deal just because you went through the program you think you are worth something? You think you are special and owed something because you got training? Let me be the first to welcome you to the US workforce, and training without performance does not me anything. I got news for you there are lots of guys that go through that program that are not worth jack, I have hired boys fresh off daddy’s farm that make better hands than 3rd and 4th year apprentices that come out of your high mighty program. 

Just like there are lots of liberal arts majors checking groceries at the supermarket. A man defines his own worth by his own actions, not his words, or some special card he carries in his pocket. Do you want fries with that?

I can’t tell you how many times I have had your brothers sit in my office, drink my coffee and tell me about all the power plants they have built and all the years or experience, all the men they have run, and how they are god’s gift to man, only to hire them so they can run 40’ of 4” in one day. Just because you belong to some special club and carry some special card does not mean jack to me. The only things I care about are performance, leadership, experience and intelligence; if you bring those to the table I will pay top dollar. All my best mechanics make more than I pay myself, and that is the market we live in. Any profit my company makes goes back into the company and when things slow down that same money is used to keep my best help busy even when it means taking jobs at cost and over-manning them. The problem is now I can’t even give a job away while you jacks-offs blather on and on about fair pay, brotherhood and solidarity. I take care of my people, but IBEW could care less if I go under, and would brag about it if they drove me under.



> Am I ashamed for being one of the higher paid electrician I know. Hell No. Most of my friends that are non union are great at what they do but have had a fraction of the education i had to do. (No need to argue value, we have beaten that horse one too many times). Almost all of them worked for different outfits for a number of years until they were told congrats your a JW.... oh and by the way we can’t afford you anymore. The difference between them and me is they had to hit the classifieds and find work. Is this fair?


Yeah I think opening the classifieds or putting a resume on monster is very fair, it might even give you a clue as to what your real market value is. If I lose this business and have to hit the streets for work, that is what I will do. In fact that is what 90% of the workforce does, why is it you think you are better than everyone else, is your pride and ego that big?


> Yes there is crap in our local just like there is crap in the non union sector... these people are increasingly ruining our creditability as the economy gets worse.


That’s a part I can’t live with. Why can’t I call a man by name? Why do we all pretend all IBEW members are equal? That is the part that is holding the good people back. You have a whole group at any given local that is crap and shows up to every meeting, and votes on issues that affect us all and a BA who knows to keep his job he has to deal with and protect that crap. You don’t have a fair voting system where you vote is private or absentee voting is allowed and you have clicks within your own ivory tower and they will eventually destroy it all. Its attrition, just look at IBEW’s market share over the past 20 years, where do you think this all leads to? Even when the work is flowing this is a problem, only when times get tough now it’s a freaking disaster. So why don’t the good guys stand up against the crap? Or is policing your own brothers such a hard thing to do? Oh and just so we are clear FLEs are crap too.



> We were built on the fact that people would pay top dollar in exchange for a company who employs trained personnel, has adequate tools and a lot of times work under a PLA. These days are over as quality is often overlooked by price. Our integrity and high level craftsmanship is all we could offer for our high prices. Customers don't care anymore as long as the plugs are hot and the lights fire up.


KOOL-AID!!!!!!!! Our non-union competitors do quality work and for less, it’s called the free market. IBEW does not have the soul rights to quality, especially when they can’t always deliver it themselves. Yes the free market will pay top dollar for quality AND PERFORMANCE. It’s the performance part of IBEW can’t seem to get right. Don’t give me some line about how your integrity won’t allow you to sacrifice safety for profits…bla bla bla I have heard all the spin and lies before. 8 hours of work for 8 hours of pay is that so hard?


> I'm sorry if this comes off like a rant but I'm sick of people portraying us as if we are working under this lead umbrella of rules. I lace up my boots and go to work just like everyone else. As Bob Badger stated before it's not for everyone. This isn't a direct jab at the non Union but more at the people who speak from hearsay about the agreement I work under.


I am tired of the typical union member hearsay about what they think our market is doing and what how think that inside agreement is some ultraistic document put in place to protect the workers from the man; you are working under a lead umbrella and IBEW is the “man” too only he is in the middle, it aint hearsay I am under that freaking umbrella and I have had it with IBEW member who are spoon fed indoctrination, lies and pride all their career who think all contractors own 5 vacation house and live the high life off the sweat of their backs, as the free market is whipping our asses. You ever beg for work? Ever grovel or kiss ass go get a job? Of course not you guys are to proud for that and only non-union electricians do that right? I got news for you buddy, I do it every day so guys like you can have a job. It’s called humility and it’s the opposite of pride. 



> BTW- Phatelvis, I suggest quit talking about FLE's. Your lack of education on them doesn't need to be spread across this forum. And no, I am not one but close to a few.


Whatever… I am related one who is crippled and I am paying his mortgage right now as he waits for disability. Where are his FLE brothers now? My lack of education? Oh believe me I have had more than enough education on FLEs and the crap they pull on my jobs. Screw your FLE friends. When I find them I terminate them, as fast as I can, and when I catch them I file charges. As for all the FLE are good people hearsay, keep it to yourself none of the contractors are buying it. 

Or maybe you are going to tell me it’s just a few bad apples making the good brothers look bad? That is a great argument, you know most non-union companies area mostly hard working good guys, but it’s just a few bad apples that make them look bad you know. Wow that works great when you turn it around.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> as all contractors have learned jobsite safety is more than a choice its either the biggest liability you can have or its almost a profit center because of what you can save in insurance, you can even sell your work at a higher rate with the right insurance modifiers.


Yeah, even open shops know this and it drives safety much more than anything.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> Do you honestly think...


P.Elvis speaks the truth. He has got the experience to back it up.

What he said about college graduates with a master's degree who could not 'cut the mustard' waiting tables, rings true. 'Fake it 'til you make it.' Why should someone who cannot perform, have a revolving door back onto the field? I don't hate that person for being sub-standard, they wanted to be an electrician, faked it through the program, and now this is all they know. In fact, I sympathize with that person, but they should not be protected or entitled to xyz wage when they are not suited for the job. The distinction is the guy/gal with the master's degree can't get a job and has $80k in college loans to pay down while checking groceries. Why is being a failure as an electrician accepted?

Honest to gawd, I ferking hate that I can't work for the contractor of my choice. I hate it that the bums are guaranteed ninety days of work before I move up a notch. But the money, pension, and benefits can't be beat. Will someone please offer an alternative to the present way of running the books?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> P.Elvis speaks the truth. He has got the experience to back it up.
> 
> What he said about college graduates with a master's degree who could not 'cut the mustard' waiting tables, rings true. 'Fake it 'til you make it.' Why should someone who cannot perform, have a revolving door back onto the field? I don't hate that person for being sub-standard, they wanted to be an electrician, faked it through the program, and now this is all they know. In fact, I sympathize with that person, but they should not be protected or entitled to xyz wage when they are not suited for the job. The distinction is the guy/gal with the master's degree can't get a job and has $80k in college loans to pay down while checking groceries. Why is being a failure as an electrician accepted?
> 
> Honest to gawd, I ferking hate that I can't work for the contractor of my choice. I hate it that the bums are guaranteed ninety days of work before I move up a notch. But the money, pension, and benefits can't be beat. Will someone please offer an alternative to the present way of running the books?


The contractor can spin you and you dont loose your place ,a contractor can call you out but must pay foremans rate, contractor works you less than two weeks you don't loose your place. You can only pass three calls before you get droped to the end.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

rewire said:


> The contractor can spin you and you dont loose your place ,a contractor can call you out but must pay foremans rate, contractor works you less than two weeks you don't loose your place. You can only pass three calls before you get droped to the end.


That strike b.s. is not enforced.

And now when I get close to the bottom, after waiting forever and a day for short-timers to get their share of the work, I have to go out and tell the manpower guy of who I want to work for to put in a call. 

This is not the way it should work. :thumbdown:


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