# 6 AWG for 50A circuit??



## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

swimmer - 

I think that #6AWG Copper is a requirement in this case because based on the document that is what the manufacturer requires ( NEC 110.3(B) ), regardless if the code book were to indicate something smaller is adequate.

Setting aside the listing requirement in order to use the 90C column all terminations need to be listed as being rated for 90C. This is rarely the case. Many components are only listed for 75C or even 60C.

Cheers!

Jim


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

For circuits 100amps and below use the 60degree column, 110.14(C)(1) terminal temperature limitations.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

shocksystems said:


> swimmer -
> 
> I think that #6AWG Copper is a requirement in this case because based on the document that is what the manufacturer requires ( NEC 110.3(B) ), regardless if the code book were to indicate something smaller is adequate.
> 
> ...


Use caution when using the 90deg column.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Just checked a Cutler Hammer catalog for the breaker and saw the 60C rating. I also saw 75C stamped on the NEMA 14-50 receptacle. 

Thanks for the clarification


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I always use #6 for 50 amp Tesla charger outlets. 
The cost between # 8 and #6 would be very minimal for '25'


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

90 degree column is for derating only. 75 degree column is for over 100amps. 110.14(C)(1) terminal temperature limitations


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

#8 is good for 50 amps as long as it isn't nm cable or se cable. You can use the 75C if the thhn is install in a raceway, the panelboard is rated 75C and the breaker is rated 75C. Unless this is a really old panel #8 would work.

How long is the run? The specs may call for #6 because they are using the worst case scenario--NM cable. In that case it must be #6. If it is very near the panel then just run #6-- a few bucks different


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> *I always use #6 for 50 amp Tesla charger outlets. *
> The cost between # 8 and #6 would be very minimal for '25'



Agree with you 100%.
I thought everybody would use #6 awg for this.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Agree with you 100%.
> I thought everybody would use #6 awg for this.


Fact is #6 may not needed. #8 will work fine. Perhaps if your run was 100' or so maybe $6 would be necessary.

Suppose you were doing a development of 50 homes. Would you run #6 to all those units. Guys that bid these type of homes will do what is code and nothing more. In this case I see no reason to use #6. We always do but that's because we usually are running NM cable


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Fact is #6 may not needed. #8 will work fine. Perhaps if your run was 100' or so maybe $6 would be necessary.
> 
> Suppose you were doing a development of 50 homes. Would you run #6 to all those units. Guys that bid these type of homes will do what is code and nothing more. In this case I see no reason to use #6. We always do but that's because we usually are running NM cable


Good thing I don't do housing developments. Any job I've done #8 MC was good for a 40 amp breaker.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Fact is #6 may not needed. #8 will work fine. Perhaps if your run was 100' or so maybe $6 would be necessary.
> 
> Suppose you were doing a development of 50 homes. Would you run #6 to all those units. Guys that bid these type of homes will do what is code and nothing more. In this case I see no reason to use #6. We always do but that's because we usually are running NM cable


But the OP's attached spec.(says#6), along with 110.3(B) is a reason to use #6, no?
Wouldn't that make it what is code?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> But the OP's attached spec.(says#6), along with 110.3(B) is a reason to use #6, no?
> Wouldn't that make it what is code?


Technically yes if it is part of the listing of the product. But as I said they put that crap in there because they don't want to complicate the install. Now would an inspector turn it down? He/She could but many don't look at that.

That is why I stated to use #6 if it is a short run because of cost. Just wanted to be clear that #8 could work but you are correct that #6 could be enforced.

I have seen a wine cooler that had a amp rating of 1/2 amp. It called for a separate circuit. This is one of the times where I scoff at the mfg. specs.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Good thing I don't do housing developments. Any job I've done #8 MC was good for a 40 amp breaker.


For some reason, our suppliers don't carry MC larger than #10. We can get #6 Romex but not any SE cable.
I run pipe in a garages for a Tesla outlets and would use #8 if they didn't call out #6. I think of #6 as 60 amp wire.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Good thing I don't do housing developments. Any job I've done #8 MC was good for a 40 amp breaker.


But I am sure you used #8 THHN for 50A all the time, right?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> But I am sure you used #8 THHN for 50A all the time, right?


Yes, or THWN I was thinking just in terms of cable.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> For circuits 100amps and below use the 60degree column, 110.14(C)(1) terminal temperature limitations.


Read that section again. The 60° column being used for 100A and under is not automatic. It's only *IF* the terminations are not marked. Most now days are marked and are 75°.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

Bird dog said:


> For circuits 100amps and below use the 60degree column, 110.14(C)(1) terminal temperature limitations.




Really?
I pull 8's for 50 amp circuits all day long. 


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Dash Dingo said:


> Really?
> I pull 8's for 50 amp circuits all day long.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In Romex?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Only place I ever see 90° terminations is MV. I don't think they exist on 600V class gear.

So my rule of thumb is if your ampacity ever exceeds the 75° column you probably have to upsize your conductors.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

Forge Boyz said:


> In Romex?




No. 
The post just said any circuit under 100 amps use the 60 degree column. Nothing about Romex.


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## Tom the lecrician (Sep 23, 2016)

Do t forget the continuous load correction. I'm sure it charges for 3 hours and longer


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## Tom the lecrician (Sep 23, 2016)

Which type of Rome and why?


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## Tom the lecrician (Sep 23, 2016)

Idk, sounds a little funny


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

This is a branch circuit. Look at table 210.24. It doesn't matter the wiring method. 50 amp branch circuits require #6 copper. If you have a wiring method @75C, it still needs number #6 copper for a branch circuit. Use 310.15 (b)(16) to determine the allowable ampacity of your conductor, nothing more. 310.15 (b)(16) is the most abused table in the NEC IMO.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Technically yes if it is part of the listing of the product. But as I said they put that crap in there because they don't want to complicate the install. Now would an inspector turn it down? He/She could but many don't look at that.
> 
> That is why I stated to use #6 if it is a short run because of cost. Just wanted to be clear that #8 could work but you are correct that #6 could be enforced.
> 
> *I have seen a wine cooler that had a amp rating of 1/2 amp. It called for a separate circuit. This is one of the times where I scoff at the mfg. specs*.


The kind of owner who'd have a wine cooler is not putting ordinary table wine within it.

That's the operating assumption. 

The need for a dedicated circuit is risk and economics. It'd be nothing for such a device to be loaded to the gills with $50 to $250 bottles of wine -- say a hundred of them.

The LAST thing such an owner wants to discover is that a casual GFCI trip occurred -- during a heat wave -- and his $12,000 stash of vino is now low grade vinegar.

Sometimes you have to think away from the Code.

I see no end of dedicated circuits specified in commercial projects -- for devices that have utterly trivial loads.* It's just more gravy for our trade, IMHO.* :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> The kind of owner who'd have a wine cooler is not putting ordinary table wine within it.
> 
> That's the operating assumption.
> 
> ...


If I was having pizza night and lost a case of Thunderbird or Ripple I'd be ticked if it was piss warm and had to pair up a meat pizza to another beverage!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Arrow3030 said:


> This is a branch circuit. Look at table 210.24. It doesn't matter the wiring method. 50 amp branch circuits require #6 copper. If you have a wiring method @75C, it still needs number #6 copper for a branch circuit. Use 310.15 (b)(16) to determine the allowable ampacity of your conductor, nothing more. 310.15 (b)(16) is the most abused table in the NEC IMO.


I would not deem the Tesla connection a branch circuit:

It's unique and ONLY connects to Tesla road machines.

There's only the one Tesla specific device on the circuit.

So, I'd have to deem it a device specific circuit with device specific installation instructions.

&&&&

Romex is so MUCH easier to install than pipe & wire that #6 in Romex is going to be the lowest cost install versus #8 in EMT.

It won't even be a close calculation.

In new construction, hereabouts, the Service is set as a semi-flush panel in the exterior wall of an integral garage. The length of run to the Tesla port, if spec'd (* never would happen in tract housing* ) would be trivially short. Romex in #6 would be the norm in such an instance.

As an after-the-build installation I would expect to see surface mounted EMT as standard. Hereabouts, our walls are all closed up -- even the garages. In which case, #8 THWN-2 within EMT would be expected. Hereabouts, exposed Romex is flatly prohibited -- even if it's up inside the rough framing and overhead, and the reason why even garages are fully 'rocked in.'


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

A device specific circuit is still a branch circuit right? I've never heard that term, device specific. Most say dedicated circuit, the code says individual branch circuit.

New construction in California has several specific requirements for car chargers. IIRC, a 1" conduit with all junctions/pull bodies in readily accessible spaces unbroken from a panel with enough ampacity for 240v 60A (I think) to a jbox in the garage. Oh, and two spaces in the panel it comes from has to be labeled "Provisional EVCS" or some wording to that effect. Same label for the garage j box.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Romex is so MUCH easier to install than pipe & wire that #6 in Romex is going to be the lowest cost install versus #8 in EMT.
> 
> It won't even be a close calculation.


Why would you run #6 CU romex for 50A when #6 AL can do it? You people need to think about profit more.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why would you run #6 CU romex for 50A when #6 AL can do it? You people need to think about profit more.


Hereabouts, it's flatly prohibited in dwellings.

That's why.

Only the Poco gets away with aluminum... their service laterals.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Hereabouts, it's flatly prohibited in dwellings.
> 
> That's why.
> 
> Only the Poco gets away with aluminum... their service laterals.


Your stupid liberal state that should fall off into the ocean. 

The desk chair that I am sitting in is illegal in your state because of something in the material being "dangerous to pregnant women".


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

That's a funny statement. Does your state promote things that are dangerous to pregnant women? 

Can someone help me understand why table 210.24 doesn't apply (2011).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Arrow3030 said:


> That's a funny statement. Does your state promote things that are dangerous to pregnant women?


You misunderstood. There is nothing dangerous to pregnant women in my chair. It's only banned in California because the state is filled with liberal idiots. No pregnant women have been hurt by my chair in any other state.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Your stupid liberal state that should fall off into the ocean.
> 
> The desk chair that I am sitting in is illegal in your state because of something in the material being "dangerous to pregnant women".


I'd somehow thought that something in your chair would be dangerous to virgins.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> I'd somehow thought that something in your chair would be dangerous to virgins.


The red Chinese?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The red Chinese?


Forget the Red Chinese -- it'd be your YELLOW duck.

Any fellow with an alligator gif is 'tail' obsessed. 

Just saying....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

telsa said:


> Forget the Red Chinese -- it'd be your YELLOW duck.
> 
> Any fellow with an alligator gif is 'tail' obsessed.
> 
> Just saying....


You better not be saying anything bad about Swampy


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

My mistake. That table is for multi outlet circuits. 

Just about every retail building in California has a placard on it that says "Things in this building have been known to cause cancer." Paraphrased. It's ridiculous.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

telsa said:


> I'd somehow thought that something in your chair would be dangerous to virgins.


Lmao!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

telsa said:


> The kind of owner who'd have a wine cooler is not putting ordinary table wine within it.


That is so not true. These wine coolers cost a few hundred dollars and some people dabble in having wines. 

The one I was talking about was very small undercounter unit that was at my builders house. I know they don't spend $200 a bottle on wine.

My sister and brother -in-law have a few hundred bottles of wine but none of them are over $100 and most of them are $20 or less. The most expensive bottle they own is the one I gave them that was given to me by a customer-- It was right at $100. I don't drink and I knew they love this scene so they were the perfect people to give it to.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Dennis,
Do you mean the ones that are equal sizes to like a pc tower? When I think of smaller or less expensive ones I think of 500-1500$ ones that Costco sells...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> Dennis,
> Do you mean the ones that are equal sizes to like a pc tower? When I think of smaller or less expensive ones I think of 500-1500$ ones that Costco sells...


I think it's funny to see litre soda bottles in undercounter wine coolers.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

Arrow3030 said:


> This is a branch circuit. Look at table 210.24. It doesn't matter the wiring method. 50 amp branch circuits require #6 copper. If you have a wiring method @75C, it still needs number #6 copper for a branch circuit. Use 310.15 (b)(16) to determine the allowable ampacity of your conductor, nothing more. 310.15 (b)(16) is the most abused table in the NEC IMO.




That table is for two or more outlets on the circuit ain't it?


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## specgrade (Oct 18, 2009)

telsa said:


> The kind of owner who'd have a wine cooler is not putting ordinary table wine within it.
> 
> That's the operating assumption.
> 
> ...


Nothing but the best for my stash of Night Train, vintage 1989!


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Dash Dingo said:


> No.
> The post just said any circuit under 100 amps use the 60 degree column. Nothing about Romex.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But I think he's referring to 334.80.

Romex needs to be sized using the 60 degree column. #8Cu= 40 Amps.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

specgrade said:


> Nothing but the best for my stash of Night Train, vintage 1989!


_
Jake:_ That Night Train is a mean wine.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

splatz said:


> _
> 
> Jake:_ That Night Train is a mean wine.




Thunderbird will do just fine


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've seen Miller Lite in wine coolers. It's all good. If the spec called for a dedicated circuit, I'll run one. While I agree with what Dennis said, I'll stick with the manufacturer's instructions.


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