# no contact voltage testers!



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

wing nut said:


> Ok, i know most of us don't like/trust them, but they are a good tool to do some "front line" work with. I'm tired of my Greenlee, and my Klein broke...so, in your opinion, what is the best NCVT out there? I had both versions of the Klein, with the old plastic button on top and the rubber button on the side and honestly, i liked the old one better because i didn't turn it on by accident so often...


I've got a Fluke 1AC-A II. I've had good luck with it, 2nd one I've had, the other one is down inside a wall!!!!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Sanstronics or Amprobe are both really good.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Those things belong in the pocket protector of the ACE Hardware guy... 

I have had false readings... use a pigtail and light bulb if you can't afford a REAL tester...


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> Those things belong in the pocket protector of the ACE Hardware guy...
> 
> I have had false readings... use a pigtail and light bulb if you can't afford a REAL tester...


If you would quit throwing them into the back of your empty U-haul van maybe you'd have better results. I've had lot's of good results with mine. Usually, if you get false readings it's from inductive voltage or something like that. Pigtail and light bulb is hack and not Cat IV rated.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I use a fluke lvd2, it's pretty nice and has an led flashlight built in.

Only complaint is it doesn't make any noise... So you can't wrap it around a conductor out of sight and flip breakers until you hear it go off.

Blue light says you're near voltage or reading a low voltage, and red means it's 120v or greater.


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

Thanks FastFokker (i fokkin LOVE that screen name), that's the one i was thinking about but couldn't remember what kind it was. Sucks that it didn't make noise but i still might get it. I'm also gonna look into the Senstronics and Amprobe...thanks y'all!


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

Well, we happened by Home Depot to get supplies and i ended up buying this little guy...









Never tried a Milwaukee, but its got the LED and it does beep...also the power button is at the top and isn't that hard to trip...that was my main complaint with my old Klein...in my tool bag I'd hear that mf'er going off non stop...going in and off...so we'll see how this one does!


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I like and use the fluke ones can't remember the model right now . It works great in old house with no grounds when you can't tell the wire colors . 
A negative I have found if the wiring is wet it does not always detect voltage when it's actually is there especially if it is wet romex .


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I. Think mine is a Santronics. I use it all the time. It's always in my pocket when I'm working.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I use the Fluke 1AC-A II


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

dthurmond said:


> I like and use the fluke ones can't remember the model right now . It works great in old house with no grounds when you can't tell the wire colors .
> A negative I have found if the wiring is wet it does not always detect voltage when it's actually is there especially if it is wet romex .


Fluke 1AC-A II. You have to hold the button down for a preset time before it turns on. Red light flashes when it's on. When it senses voltage, Red light steady and beep or just red light steady depending on what mood you're in. Auto shut off.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

"For use by competent persons only." That's just a classy way of saying "If anything goes wrong, it's because you're a screwup." :laughing:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

As long as you are not testing 3 phase with the conductors close together I have no problem with them. :whistling2:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Big John said:


> "For use by competent persons only." That's just a classy way of saying "If anything goes wrong, it's because you're a screwup." :laughing:


I love the "test before and after use" too!!:laughing::laughing: Test it for what?


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

wendon said:


> I love the "test before and after use" too!!:laughing::laughing: Test it for what?


Gonnaherpasyphillaiditis Warts. These testers are whores.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

wing nut said:


> Well, we happened by Home Depot to get supplies and i ended up buying this little guy...
> 
> View attachment 25811
> 
> ...


I use this one and love it. Ill admit that i do use it more for a flashlight though :whistling2:


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

JoeKP said:


> I use this one and love it. Ill admit that i do use it more for a flashlight though :whistling2:


Yea i forsee me doing the same thing...you can't ever have too much light...i pretty much always carry my DeWalt flashlight with me...


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

wing nut said:


> Yea i forsee me doing the same thing...you can't ever have too much light...i pretty much always carry my DeWalt flashlight with me...


im slowly tossing all the ryobi tools for miwaulkee stuff, I love their brand


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

This tic tester is my first Milwaukee tool...all my power stuff is DeWalt


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

I use the Milwaukee. I lose my tick testers so often that the fatal flaw of the Milwaukee doesn't bother me...

After about a month of use, the power button comes off. I just return it to DEPOT!!! and get myself another one. The flashlight is worth using that ticker, and I find it to be the same sensitive as my previous Fluke 1AC.


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

I go for the ideal .. its tried and true has no turn on time like every other tic tester oddly it takes button batteries that never seem to die .. my only complaint is the clip likes to break off .. and I and you cannot buy it speratly .. I called and asked


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I use one made for and distributed by CED. there is no on or off button so no worries there. anyone too good for a heat pen is a primadonna


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

I've had my Milwaukee for 2-3 years and it's one of the best Imo.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> I use one made for and distributed by CED. there is no on or off button so no worries there. anyone too good for a heat pen is a primadonna


Sanstronics


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Just make sure you read and understand the information in the instructions.

From the instructions of a Klein non-contact tester:
• *If no indication, voltage could still be present.

*From the instructions of an Idea non-contact tester:
•* Do not assume that no voltage indication means the circuit is de-energized.

*From the Fluke instructions:
*When using the Tester, if tip does not glow, voltage could still be present. *

In my opinion, they are all telling us that their testers cannot be used to prove the equipment is de-energized for the purposes of working on that equipment.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Sounds to me like the lawyers got involved in writing those instructions.

There are plenty of versions that don't include that warning in their manual, Santronics and Extech, for example. Buy one of those.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

svh19044 said:


> I use the Milwaukee. I lose my tick testers so often that the fatal flaw of the Milwaukee doesn't bother me...
> 
> After about a month of use, the power button comes off. I just return it to DEPOT!!! and get myself another one. The flashlight is worth using that ticker, and I find it to be the same sensitive as my previous Fluke 1AC.


Same here, but I break the dam clip. I use the flashlight as much as the ticker.:laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Big John said:


> Sounds to me like the lawyers got involved in writing those instructions.
> 
> There are plenty of versions that don't include that warning in their manual, Santronics and Extech, for example. Buy one of those.


They all work on the same principle and they all have conditions where they will give a false negative...that is show no voltage when there really is voltage. If you know and understand those conditions, you can safely use a non-contact votlage tester, if you don't you are going to get bit or worse.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree with Don, non-contact testers are handy to find voltage but are not to be used to verify an absence of voltage (Per 70E requirements for performing work). 

70E refers you to an IEC standard for voltage testers that clarifies this (For AC <1000V)

Suggested reading
http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/3392477_6003_ENG_B_W.PDF


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Just make sure you read and understand the information in the instructions.
> 
> From the instructions of a Klein non-contact tester:
> • *If no indication, voltage could still be present.
> ...


This is exactly why I don't trust them and would rather check the circuit with a solenoid type tester....

For the guys in this thread.. if you get a NO VOLTAGRE reading.. do you double check it with a REAL tester???


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## pistol pete (Jul 4, 2011)

How come no one has mentioned just always working as if its live? I can't tell you how many times I've but things together and then checked it for what ever reason and oh **** its live... I'm sure ill be ripped to pieces for this statment but oh well... no tester is better then safe habits


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> They all work on the same principle and they all have conditions where they will give a false negative...that is show no voltage when there really is voltage. If you know and understand those conditions, you can safely use a non-contact votlage tester, if you don't you are going to get bit or worse.


 Agreed. That was basically my point: I do not believe these testers will ever fail to operate if used appropriately. This is suggested by the fact that not all testers include those blanket warning statements that you posted.

It's no different than not knowing the possible hazards of using a multimeter: If someone is not trained to use the tool appropriately, they are not a qualified person and have no business doing the job.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> ..........For the guys in this thread.. if you get a NO VOLTAGRE reading.. do you double check it with a REAL tester???


No... I test it with a wire-cutting tool. :laughing:


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

wing nut said:


> This tic tester is my first Milwaukee tool...all my power stuff is DeWalt


how much was the Milwaukee tester?


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I have owned almost every pen tester available and hands down the Fluke 1AC A 2 is the best I have ever used.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

B4T said:


> This is exactly why I don't trust them and would rather check the circuit with a solenoid type tester....
> 
> For the guys in this thread.. if you get a NO VOLTAGRE reading.. do you double check it with a REAL tester???


No because I have checked my tic tracer multiple times throughout the day on live circuits. But I do take the wire that tested dead to ground before I touch it. I only use a pen tester on branch wiring, you wont catch me using it to make sure a feeder is dead, then I use a pen tester first and a meter second. I would like to add you probably add more risk to the situation if you are trying to stick your tester's leads under a marrette then you would if you used a pen tester.


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## vinroc (Feb 15, 2010)




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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

Nice collection. How many of those still work?


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## bmailman20 (Jan 4, 2013)

I had a fluke and it was great until I broke the tip off in an outlet. Then I had a Greenlee, and it was such junk I gave up on pen testers for 10 years. I got a fluke 1-ac six months ago, and its the best. The flashing light lets you know that it's on, and then verbs as it does the auto shut off. It gives everywhere I do with my wallet and iphone.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Why would you trust your life with a crappy pen tester. Remember 120v can kill you.


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## deverson (Feb 15, 2012)

Don't trust these testers with underground cables. They will not read reliably. Dummy notches are living proof! If the hole around the conductors is large enough you will save cutting and repairing underground cables. I do a lot of sidewalk lighting repair and you need them sometimes. Just be very careful with them.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> If someone is not trained to use the tool appropriately, they are not a qualified person and have no business doing the job.


Don't go bringing fact and logic into this.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Don't go bringing fact and logic into this.


 You want something devoid of logic, then go visit the LB thread I'm trolling. If I hadn't just changed my avatar to a vomiting goat, it would already be an Anybody. :laughing:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Big John said:


> You want something devoid of logic, then go visit the LB thread I'm trolling. If I hadn't just changed my avatar to a vomiting goat, it would already be an Anybody. :laughing:


HEY!

:lol:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Big John said:


> Agreed. That was basically my point: I do not believe these testers will ever fail to operate if used appropriately. This is suggested by the fact that not all testers include those blanket warning statements that you posted.
> 
> It's no different than not knowing the possible hazards of using a multimeter: If someone is not trained to use the tool appropriately, they are not a qualified person and have no business doing the job.


So you never use one on a fiberglass ladder? That is one of the possible conditions that may give you a false negative.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

cdnelectrician said:


> No because I have checked my tic tracer multiple times throughout the day on live circuits. But I do take the wire that tested dead to ground before I touch it. I only use a pen tester on branch wiring, you wont catch me using it to make sure a feeder is dead, then I use a pen tester first and a meter second. I would like to add you probably add more risk to the situation if you are trying to stick your tester's leads under a marrette then you would if you used a pen tester.


The conditions are not exactly the same at all of the points where you use the tester on a live circuit. It is the differing conditions that may result in a false negative.


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## wing nut (May 29, 2013)

Lep said:


> how much was the Milwaukee tester?


It was about $18 at Home Depot. I love it thus far!


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

wing nut said:


> It was about $18 at Home Depot. I love it thus far!


18!??! I think I paid 10 for mine


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> So you never use one on a fiberglass ladder? That is one of the possible conditions that may give you a false negative.


 What substantiation do you have for that? I've honestly never heard of that mode of failure.

Besides the fact that I've used them without incident for years from fiberglass ladders, we also routinely connect them to hot sticks designed to be insulated to hundreds of kV: That's standard practice throughout the industry, so if isolation from ground or low user-capacitance were to make these things read faulty, I have to believe we'd have seen it by now.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Big John said:


> What substantiation do you have for that? I've honestly never heard of that mode of failure.
> 
> Besides the fact that I've used them without incident for years from fiberglass ladders, we also routinely connect them to hot sticks designed to be insulated to hundreds of kV: That's standard practice throughout the industry, so if isolation from ground or low user-capacitance were to make these things read faulty, I have to believe we'd have seen it by now.


That is based on the statement in the Fluke instructions that say you have to be "grounded".


> Lack of an indication occurs if the Tester is unable to sense the presence of voltage which may be influenced by several factors including, but not limited to:
> ●Shielded wire/cables
> ●Thickness and type of insulation
> ●Distance from the voltage source
> ...


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

I just used mine for quick checks, like before sticking my hand in a box. I always check with a meter afterwards or sometimes if it's a 15-20amp 120v I'll grab it with my linemans and slap it on the ground to be sure.

Although I haven't used mine in over a year and half because our LOTO procedures don't allow them.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

freeagnt54 said:


> I just used mine for quick checks, like before sticking my hand in a box. I always check with a meter afterwards or sometimes if it's a 15-20amp 120v I'll grab it with my linemans and slap it on the ground to be sure.
> 
> Although I haven't used mine in over a year and half because our LOTO procedures don't allow them.


Your LO/TO procedures allow you to short something to ground to check for voltage?


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

sparky970 said:


> Your LO/TO procedures allow you to short something to ground to check for voltage?


No its checked with a calibrated meter.

Edit: To clarify that's what I would do on previous jobs after checking with no contact and/or meter.


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## kalexv12 (Apr 23, 2009)

JoeKP said:


> 18!??! I think I paid 10 for mine


I got mine 2 for $20 and so did 3 other guys in our crew. I always have mine clipped on my shirt ready at moments notice. I've probably been through close to 20 different testers due to loss or breaking. I've only bought multiples of flukes and milwaukees.


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## Marcus (Mar 30, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> Why would you trust your life with a crappy pen tester. Remember 120v can kill you.


Less than 80V can kill you, it all comes down to current and the path it takes to earth.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> So you never use one on a fiberglass ladder? That is one of the possible conditions that may give you a false negative.


Or in an attic on K&T

They're just another tool, but I wouldn't leave home without one.

Who uses the same tool for everything?


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

Non-Contacts test for an EMF field, and need a path back to ground through capacitive coupling. That is one reason why they don't work on DC. That capacitive path to ground is through your body while holding the tester. How, far from ground you are will affect the sensitivity. That will be a different sensitivity if you are standing on the ground, or on a fiberglass ladder. The conditions will also affect that capacitance, like how much humidity is in the air, to assist in that coupling. Moisture in Romex will also act as an insulator, which will block the EMF signal, an affect the ability to detect the field.

So, all this means the detection range of these testers will be all over the map, based on your environment, and how sensitive the manufacturer has made the unit. A unit that may be sensitive enough to work on a ladder, may be too sensitive when the path to ground is short. So, that makes for a wide range of functionality, and is also why some people love a tester that another person hates. So, find the tester YOU like. Just because it works the way YOU want, doesn't mean it will work the way everyone else wants.

This is why every manufacturer has so many warnings about the environment you use it on, and why you need to validate your readings.


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## mk2munky (Oct 31, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> I use a fluke lvd2, it's pretty nice and has an led flashlight built in.
> 
> Only complaint is it doesn't make any noise... So you can't wrap it around a conductor out of sight and flip breakers until you hear it go off.
> 
> Blue light says you're near voltage or reading a low voltage, and red means it's 120v or greater.


I have the same one, same opinion. I keep mine in my pants pocket always and use it as a backup to my Klein dual mode one. The Fluke, aside from not making noise, is still the nicest one I've had yet.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Voltage Hazard said:


> Non-Contacts test for an EMF field, and need a path back to ground through capacitive coupling. That is one reason why they don't work on DC. That capacitive path to ground is through your body while holding the tester. How, far from ground you are will affect the sensitivity. That will be a different sensitivity if you are standing on the ground, or on a fiberglass ladder. The conditions will also affect that capacitance, like how much humidity is in the air, to assist in that coupling. Moisture in Romex will also act as an insulator, which will block the EMF signal, an affect the ability to detect the field.
> 
> So, all this means the detection range of these testers will be all over the map, based on your environment, and how sensitive the manufacturer has made the unit. A unit that may be sensitive enough to work on a ladder, may be too sensitive when the path to ground is short. So, that makes for a wide range of functionality, and is also why some people love a tester that another person hates. So, find the tester YOU like. Just because it works the way YOU want, doesn't mean it will work the way everyone else wants.
> 
> This is why every manufacturer has so many warnings about the environment you use it on, and why you need to validate your readings.


I can remember the first ones that came out you had to hold your thumb on the end cap to test a circuit or something like that. If it depends on a a capacitive path to ground, why can I take my Fluke and push it into a recept or wedge it between a conductor and it will light up and beep while I go over and shut off the breaker??


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

mk2munky said:


> I have the same one, same opinion. I keep mine in my pants pocket always and use it as a backup to my Klein dual mode one. The Fluke, aside from not making noise, is still the nicest one I've had yet.


Also in the sun sometimes I have a hard time distinguishing the colors on the tip. 

But I think I'll just learn to use it for what it can do.. The flashlight is nice to have.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mk2munky said:


> I keep mine in my pants pocket always and use it as a backup to my Klein dual mode one. .


So do i, great way to pick up chicks! :jester:

~CS~


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

wendon said:


> I can remember the first ones that came out you had to hold your thumb on the end cap to test a circuit or something like that. If it depends on a a capacitive path to ground, why can I take my Fluke and push it into a recept or wedge it between a conductor and it will light up and beep while I go over and shut off the breaker??


Even though these are "voltage testers", they are not really measuring any voltage, with current flow. 

Everyone is thinking about the capacitive value when it comes to passing voltage and current, but you can't think about these this way. Instead, think of it as a radio antenna picking up broadcast stations. These are picking up EMF waves, like a radio picks up radio waves. I'm showing my age, but how many of us had rabbit ears or other antennas on their TV's as kids? Ever go up to adjust the antenna, and the picture was better when you touched the antenna, and everyone says " that's perfect, just stand there and hold that all night". When holding these testers, your body is now a part of the antenna, and aids in picking up these EMF waves. Just like your radio is affected by weather, driving around city skyscrapers, what buildings you are in, etc, your Non-Contact tester is affected the same way. No radio manufacturer can list every condition that a radio would pick up stations, just like no NCVT manufacturer can list every condition this will work in. Measuring 600V verses 60V, would be like how far away you could pick up a 50,000 Watt radio station verses a 5,000 Watt station, and how clear of a day it needed to be.

Now, let's do other similar comparisons. You may have a radio that is the best one you ever had for picking up stations, but you hate the crappy sound of the speaker, or how hard it is to turn on the power button, or that the thing just isn't durable. So, your NCVT may be perfect for detecting signal, but breaks easy, or turns on/off easy. You may own what you think is the perfect radio in every way, but your buddy thinks it sucks. Throwing away your NCVT because it didn't pick up a voltage one day, is like throwing away your radio when it couldn't play your favorite song going through a tunnel.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

There's a lot of assumption and theorizing here. I'm gonna have to test this one out.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I have a question.

If non-contact testers are not intended to verify voltage is off what exactly is their purpose?


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I have a question.
> 
> If non-contact testers are not intended to verify voltage is off what exactly is their purpose?


A iPhone case is intended to protect your phone if you drop it. But, it won't protect it for every drop. Will you not get one because of that?

A NCVT is designed to test for voltage, but it won't work every time. Know that if you get a no voltage reading, and stay safe. But, if you get a voltage reading, you are glad you have it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I have a question.
> 
> If non-contact testers are not intended to verify voltage is off what exactly is their purpose?





B4T said:


> Those things belong in the pocket protector of the ACE Hardware guy...
> 
> I have had false readings... use a pigtail and light bulb if you can't afford a REAL tester...



:laughing:



What a weird thread. I'm pretty sure we all know how to use one and what the dangers are.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Voltage Hazard said:


> A iPhone case is intended to protect your phone if you drop it. But, it won't protect it for every drop. Will you not get one because of that?
> 
> A NCVT is designed to test for voltage, but it won't work every time. Know that if you get a no voltage reading, and stay safe. But, if you get a voltage reading, you are glad you have it.


Like any meter or tool it is only as good as the education of the person using it.

I have no problem using mine and know it's limitations.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Voltage Hazard said:


> So, your NCVT may be perfect for detecting signal, but breaks easy, or turns on/off easy. You may own what you think is the perfect radio in every way, but your buddy thinks it sucks. Throwing away your NCVT because it didn't pick up a voltage one day, is like throwing away your radio when it couldn't play your favorite song going through a tunnel.


If that's the criteria, then my Fluke must be perfect. It doesn't turn off or on easily, it doesn't break easily, I can choose between a red flash or a red flash and a tone!:thumbup: By the way, that was kind of a wordy essay!!:laughing::laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I have a question.
> 
> If non-contact testers are not intended to verify voltage is off what exactly is their purpose?


Well, if you gutted them YOU could probably figure out another use for them!!:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> Well, if you gutted them YOU could probably figure out another use for them!!:laughing::laughing:


:laughing:


I am going to pick up this afternoon, come on over and I will hook you up. :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> I am going to pick up this afternoon, come on over and I will hook you up. :laughing:


:laughing::laughing: I'll probably be out on the lake and I don't want anything to mess up my fishing skills!!!!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> :laughing::laughing: I'll probably be out on the lake and I don't want anything to mess up my fishing skills!!!!


Perfect time for it, you will hear the fish talk to you.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Perfect time for it, you will hear the fish talk to you.


Saying what? "Dave's not home!"?


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## newbi (Dec 17, 2011)

The flashlight is awesome on the lvd2. I don't use it for checking circuits anymore as I find it is too sensitive and picks up other voltages many times.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I have a question.
> 
> If non-contact testers are not intended to verify voltage is off what exactly is their purpose?


They are made to help the TV host look amazing when he finds a live wire hanging out of the ceiling..

I bet he gets love letters from women who think he is "cool" when the little pen starts to buzz and light up.. :laughing:


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I use mine a lot . No one tool is made for everything but this is good to have . Like I said earlier becareful around wet wiring . It does not work well then !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> They are made to help the TV host look amazing when he finds a live wire hanging out of the ceiling.


You are a goof. :laughing:

Everyone one of the field employees in the company I work for now and the company I worked for before is / was required to carry one and use it before touching things that could be live. 

I can't help it if they are too complicated for you to use. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You are a goof. :laughing:
> 
> Everyone one of the field employees in the company I work for now and the company I worked for before is / was required to carry one and use it before touching things that could be live.
> 
> I can't help it if they are too complicated for you to use. :whistling2:


Why play around with one of those testers when you can use a REAL tester that tells you the exact voltage present... not that it is a "LIVE" wire...

What is the company policy if the wire tests dead... does he/she verify the reading with a REAL voltage tester??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> Why play around with one of those testers when you can use a REAL tester that tells you the exact voltage present... not that it is a "LIVE" wire...
> 
> What is the company policy if the wire tests dead... does he/she verify the reading with a REAL voltage tester??



I have a pretty good idea of what voltage I'm dealing with without having to get out a 'real' tester. :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Why play around with one of those testers when you can use a REAL tester that tells you the exact voltage present... not that it is a "LIVE" wire...


I send an employee to cut some NM temp cables, are you suggesting he strip them open without knowing if they are live or not just so he can use a 'real meter'?

And if he is going to use one of your 'real meters' he will have to suit up in PPE to do so.

Or I send them to install devices, does he really need a 'real meter' to make sure the circuit is dead before he reaches in the box to pull the wires out?




> What is the company policy if the wire tests dead... does he/she verify the reading with a REAL voltage tester??


No they use the NCVT to verify it is dead, they do not get a meter in most cases. 

You have no leg to stand on, we have about 150 - 200 guys in the feild and have not had a lost time accident in damn close to a year. 

Our 'mod rate' a measuring stick used by insurance companies to set insurance rates, is well bellow average for an electrical contractor.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I have a pretty good idea of what voltage I'm dealing with without having to get out a 'real' tester. :whistling2:


So you are THAT amazing with your 'pen" tester that you can tell the difference between 120V and 103V.. *WOW*


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> So you are THAT amazing with your 'pen" tester that you can tell the difference between 120V and 103V...


 You don't need to know that difference. No one who's used them for long troubleshoots with them; it's a sure way to chase your tail. 

Power off or power on?
They do that effectively.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So you are THAT amazing with your 'pen" tester that you can tell the difference between 120V and 103V.. *WOW*


Who said anything at all about using one to measure voltage?

It is simply a tool to see if there is a hazardous voltage present or not.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> Power off or power on?
> They do that effectively.


If I am testing a circuit.... I want to know everything possible right away..all I am saying...

I don't have time to waste with false readings... to each their own.. :thumbsup:

The tester I have buzzes when I touch the tip to a live wire.... I can easily test a piece of NM for power without skinning anything...


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

B4T said:


> So you are THAT amazing with your 'pen" tester that you can tell the difference between 120V and 103V.. *WOW*


I've been staying out of this thread because it's a lot like this :bangin: trying to discuss this subject with some of you old stubborn guys that don't understand that there are some new-fangled gizmos that make life a little easier here in the 21st century.

However, a non-contact tester is a go, no go tester. If I'm using a nct, I don't care what the voltage is, only that there is or isn't voltage present. If I want to know the nominal voltage I use a wiggy, if I want to know the exact voltage I use a DMM. All of these various testers (as well as a few other varieties) are on my truck and used regularly depending on the situation.

I get it, some of you don't like nct's. That's fine, don't use one. Some of us can see usefulness of them and use them regularly with success. To each their own.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

B4T said:


> The tester I have buzzes when I touch the tip to a live wire.... I can easily test a piece of NM for power without skinning anything...


You must have a "magic tester". Maybe you can explain to the class how you can take a piece of romex *(in the middle of the run)* and determine if there is power present without stripping the outer sheathing and then the insulation on the conductor itself.

I would love to see it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> If I am testing a circuit.... I want to know everything possible right away..all I am saying...
> ..


That's fine, but we are not talking about testing we are talking about seeing if something like a cable is safe to cut.



> I don't have time to waste with false readings... to each their own.. :thumbsup:


I don't get false readings, I know when it will work and when it won't. If I am concerned I am getting a false reading then out comes a different method. 

Do you even own one?

If yes how much have you used it?



> The tester I have buzzes when I touch the tip to a live wire.... I can easily test a piece of NM for power without skinning anything.


So you are jabbing a probe into what might be a live wire?

That would require PPE and balls of steel when working with a 12/3 cable that is 480 volt 3 phase. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> So you are THAT amazing with your 'pen" tester that you can tell the difference between 120V and 103V.. *WOW*



Ever hear of _'nominal'_ voltages?

I really don't care if the circuit is 118, or 121, or 107, or 128 or 113 volts. 

It's still *120*. I know from experience it's not 277. Or in your case, 268, or 284, or 275, or 286, or 269......

Quit trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I send an employee to cut some NM temp cables, are you suggesting he strip them open without knowing if they are live or not just so he can use a 'real meter'?
> 
> And if he is going to use one of your 'real meters' he will have to suit up in PPE to do so.
> 
> ...


I rarely agree with you, but you've hit it spot on.

Suit up with ppe to reach in somewhere and strip a cable, to cut a wire, to test it against ground to find out that was the right breaker/fuse you switched off, so now you can take off your ppe and do the work? 

Ridiculous.

15+ mins to check something you could figure out in seconds. I do agree these testers are all different and sparkys should learn to use theirs Effectively. Im still working on that!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I do have one of those "gizmo's" in my truck for checking cables that have no end in sight...

I use it as a last resort.. maybe once a year.. if that...

You guys who swear by them I wish you luck.... I didn't get old by shear luck alone.. :thumbsup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Our 'mod rate' a measuring stick used by insurance companies to set insurance rates, is well bellow average for an electrical contractor.


I would love to know what your company "mod" rate is. Just so I could compare it to mine and a few others.
My service guys would not know what our mod rate is, how do you know your companies rate. Do they tell the employees and give you any type of bonus? I can see no real reason to tell an average employee what my mod rate is other than maybe some type of bonus system.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

B4T said:


> I do have one of those "gizmo's" in my truck for checking cables that have no end in sight...
> 
> I use it as a last resort.. maybe once a year.. if that...
> 
> You guys who swear by them I wish you luck.... I didn't get old by shear luck alone.. :thumbsup:


Are you really that daft or are you just trolling?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So do i, great way to pick up chicks! :jester:
> 
> ~CS~


And chicks use stud finders:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Are you really that daft or are you just trolling?


Getting false readings gets my attention... you want to rely on that type of tester.. go right ahead...

Nothing to Troll about.. you captain your own ship as *YOU* see fit.. I wish you luck.. :thumbsup:


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## zapped_electric (May 24, 2013)

I don't get false readings, I know when it will work and when it won't. If I am concerned I am getting a false reading then out comes a different method. [/quote]

What brand/type of NCVT do you use??


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

zapped_electric said:


> I don't get false readings, I know when it will work and when it won't. If I am concerned I am getting a false reading then out comes a different method.


What brand/type of NCVT do you use??[/QUOTE]

The one I just bought was a Milwaukee.. before that.. I don't remember..


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## Voltage Hazard (Aug 10, 2009)

This thread is turning into a fricking novel.

I can't wait to get to the end, and find out "who done it".


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Voltage Hazard said:


> This thread is turning into a fricking novel.
> 
> I can't wait to get to the end, and find out "who done it".


I did it.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Another great use is tracing NM. I turn off all the other circuits and can follow the one I'm interrested in w/ a NCVT. Much better than a toner which may bleed over to other cables.


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## zapped_electric (May 24, 2013)

B4T said:


> What brand/type of NCVT do you use??


The one I just bought was a Milwaukee.. before that.. I don't remember..[/quote]


I have a Greenlee, not very impressed with it. I would never trust it with my life or the life of my guys. 

The voltage shouldn't be an issue. If you know the highest voltage of the building, it won't be any higher. However, if a person doesn't know the source of the cable or the load on it, are there actually people out there who would potentially cut a cable with a load on it??


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I had 2 greenlees prior and i wasnt a big fan. The first often gave false positives, wasting my time trying to kill the circuit. And the second was adjustable and sometimes gave false negatives. Argh!

Operator error of course.


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## zapped_electric (May 24, 2013)

FastFokker said:


> I had 2 greenlees prior and i wasnt a big fan. The first often gave false positives, wasting my time trying to kill the circuit. And the second was adjustable and sometimes gave false negatives. Argh!
> 
> Operator error of course.


What do you have now?? 

I have yet to see/use an NCVT that is 100% accurate.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Another great use is tracing NM. I turn off all the other circuits and can follow the one I'm interrested in w/ a NCVT. Much better than a toner which may bleed over to other cables.


I try not to turning any circuits off that I am working on. Takes waaay to much time.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I try not to turning any circuits off that I am working on. Takes waaay to much time.












Tru dat!


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I try not to turning any circuits off that I am working on. Takes waaay to much time.


So you work everything hot


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> I would love to know what your company "mod" rate is. Just so I could compare it to mine and a few others.
> My service guys would not know what our mod rate is, how do you know your companies rate. Do they tell the employees and give you any type of bonus? I can see no real reason to tell an average employee what my mod rate is other than maybe some type of bonus system.


Average is 1.0


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

zapped_electric said:


> What do you have now??
> 
> I have yet to see/use an NCVT that is 100% accurate.


I use the Fluke lvd2... Although i just had an instance with aluminum wiring where it went blue (voltage near, but not immediate) and it was immediate.

See thread: Aluminum Saved my butt

Other than that its a real good tic tester. Has a sweet LED flashlight built in too.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I would love to know what your company "mod" rate is. Just so I could compare it to mine and a few others.
> My service guys would not know what our mod rate is, how do you know your companies rate. Do they tell the employees and give you any type of bonus? I can see no real reason to tell an average employee what my mod rate is other than maybe some type of bonus system.


The mod rate is brought up in company meetings with all employees to emphasis the need for safe work practices. Many of the GCs and some customers will not use a company with a mod rate that is not less than average.

One guy going to the hospital for a laceration can change the mod rate. For that reason employees are required to wear gloves. 

As far as your mod rate I don't think you have one, as far as I know it is only used with companies that have over 50 employees.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

BBQ said:


> The mod rate is brought up in company meetings with all employees to emphasis the need for safe work practices. Many of the GCs and some customers will not use a company with a mod rate that is not less than average.
> 
> One guy going to the hospital for a laceration can change the mod rate. For that reason employees are required to wear gloves.
> 
> As far as your mod rate I don't think you have one, as far as I know it is only used with companies that have over 50 employees.



Ours is at .58 with over 700,000 man hours for the year


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I knew a guy who would use his heat pen to find cat 5 cables. He'd strip some of the wires back and stick them into the hot side of an extension cord and trace it out with his ncvt. How bout that


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I had to read it a couple times before I understood what you were describing. Then I think I made this face: :icon_eek:

Years ago I found a receptacle installed by an engineer that was fed by multiple pieces of paralleled Cat-5. He even argued with me about how safe it was because the insulation had a value of X ohms, and the parallel conductors had an ampacity of Y. He had all the math to explain why it was safe to run a vacuum cleaner off of phone wire.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> Ours is at .58 with over 700,000 man hours for the year


That is freaking amazing. Nice job.


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

As you guys have mentioned i wouldnt trust my life with this but there are plenty of situations when these are handy.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That is freaking amazing. Nice job.


That is amazing. I have been in business for almost twenty years always with a few employees. Never a insurable accident and I thinh mine is still .9 maybe a little under but not very much.


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