# Romex in a machine shop



## jsmart84

So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


----------



## sbrn33

Gross and embarrassing.


----------



## jsmart84

sBRN I know but I need something concrete that says I can't. There's no fumes they do engraving and welding on body replacements. The only thing o can't figure out is what kind of building is a metal buildi with z bar perling considered


----------



## sbrn33

jsmart84 said:


> sBRN I know but I need something concrete that says I can't. There's no fumes they do engraving and welding on body replacements. The only thing o can't figure out is what kind of building is a metal buildi with z bar perling considered


In NE any commercial is conduit. Which Is a very good code.


----------



## lighterup

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


Not clear on environment this is in , but you can read it in chapter
334 2014 NEC ...334.12


----------



## backstay

15 minute fire rating for a non dwelling.


----------



## frenchelectrican

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


Basically just tell that machine shop owner that you will run EMT or ridge conduit and no romex at all.

you will be surprised when the inspectors see romex cables in commercial building espcally the word machine shop that going raise a bunch of orange and red flags fast.,,

is that machine shop going use overhead crane or not ? that will change the game a bit.,,


----------



## MTW

I'd reroute the romex in a heartbeat.


----------



## lighterup

frenchelectrican said:


> Basically just tell that machine shop owner that you will run EMT or ridge conduit and no romex at all.
> 
> you will be surprised when the inspectors see romex cables in commercial building espcally the word machine shop that going raise a bunch of orange and red flags fast.,,
> 
> is that machine shop going use overhead crane or not ? that will change the game a bit.,,


I was thinking for machine shop , there must be metal flylings , various oils
that make there way up onto the steel ceiling grid supports and rest on
top of that NMC..

I seen this once myself and recall expressing my surprise to the shops
owner when he was showing me around. I just let him know I would not
be mirroring that type of install. Never did get the contract for that place.


----------



## telsa

In my county, Romex is strictly limited to certain types of occupancies.

Romex is also prohibited if it's run exposed... attics, excepted.

You'd best take a peek at your own local amendments to the NEC.


----------



## jsmart84

backstay said:


> 15 minute fire rating for a non dwelling.


Backstay, I was thinking his as well. I will most likely not hear from them unless I'm the only guy returning there call. They asked yesterday if I would be able to do it in there timeline. I know a lot of guys are busy around here so . We'll see I'm pricing out 200 amp bus for 50 feet


----------



## RePhase277

The only way I would use romex in a building like that is if they framed the offices out of wood. Out in the shop, EMT or rigid only.


----------



## flyboy

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft *except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.*


What do you mean "*where it drops*"? They're not using romex for cord drops to equipment are they?!


----------



## flyboy

@;


MTW said:


> I'd reroute the romex in a heartbeat.


Your lying. Nobody using the name "MTW" could mean that. Your just trying to be controversial.


----------



## John Valdes

Is NM rated as oil resistant? That shop will be a mist of oil anytime they are up and running.
Then it will settle onto any surface and the NM as well.
IMO, use EMT. Do it right.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


Don't take this wrong but at some point you need to grow a set and tell an idiot customer it's your license and not to tell you how to do your job. 

There is no way you should even think about putting your stamp on a machine shop using romex let alone reusing romex!

My God man how cheap an SOB do you want to work for?

You don't need a customer that tells you how to do your job....

There are numerous reasons romex is the wrong cable to associate in any manner with 'MACHINE Shop'.

And if he has romex for drops and thinks that's okay I'd just keep my mouth shut, turn and walk out!


----------



## MTW

flyboy said:


> Your lying. Nobody using the name "MTW" could mean that. Your just trying to be controversial.


:whistling2:


----------



## jsmart84

flyboy said:


> @;
> 
> Your lying. Nobody using the name "MTW" could mean that. Your just trying to be controversial.


I am going with subject to physical damage . Mechanical DVR, in no way do I want to use any bit of old. I personally want to run 70 ft of 200 amp bus duct but I'll end up most likely quoting EMT to junction boxes and change over. I can garantee I will not get the job , when I told the guy initially I didn't like he Romex you should have seen the look I got . It's been par for the course lately . I'm always the bad guy coming onto new generator maintenances and finding it's with 5 ft of a window , no load shed , improperly sized gas pipe etc. I point it out and they say well he was a Generac dealer :001_huh: or it passed town inspections.


----------



## RePhase277

flyboy said:


> @;
> 
> Your lying. Nobody using the name "MTW" could mean that. Your just trying to be controversial.


It means "Metrosexual Tiddly Wink"... so....


----------



## gnuuser

MTW Moisture, Heat and Oil Res. Flame ******ant Thermoplastic. Machine tool wiring in wet locations 140°F. Or 196°F. In dry locations with Nylon or Equivalent Jacket.


----------



## MTW

RePhase277 said:


> It means "Metrosexual Tiddly Wink"... so....


:no:


----------



## MechanicalDVR

jsmart84 said:


> I am going with subject to physical damage . Mechanical DVR, in no way do I want to use any bit of old. I personally want to run 70 ft of 200 amp bus duct but I'll end up most likely quoting EMT to junction boxes and change over. I can garantee I will not get the job , when I told the guy initially I didn't like he Romex you should have seen the look I got . It's been par for the course lately . I'm always the bad guy coming onto new generator maintenances and finding it's with 5 ft of a window , no load shed , improperly sized gas pipe etc. I point it out and they say well he was a Generac dealer :001_huh: or it passed town inspections.


"It was fine before you came" is my favorite one.

After "the look" I'd have said "you obviously can't afford the correct job or me to do it" and left.


----------



## JRaef

Tell him this:
_*THERE IS NO WIRING METHOD MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ONE THAT HAS TO BE DONE TWICE.*_


----------



## MechanicalDVR

JRaef said:


> Tell him this:
> _*THERE IS NO WIRING METHOD MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ONE THAT HAS TO BE DONE TWICE.*_


But "it's been working fine all this time".

The handyman that did should be hung.


----------



## lighterup

telsa said:


> In my county, Romex is strictly limited to certain types of occupancies.
> 
> Romex is also prohibited if it's run exposed... attics, excepted.
> 
> You'd best take a peek at your own local amendments to the NEC.


Reference to NM , NMC in attics...even that has stipulations...cannot be 
within 6' of attic access and 3' out from corner where roof truss and ceiling truss meets depending on pitch of roof.


----------



## lighterup

John Valdes said:


> Is NM rated as oil resistant? That shop will be a mist of oil anytime they are up and running.
> Then it will settle onto any surface and the NM as well.
> IMO, use EMT. Do it right.


NMC is "corrosion resistant" , but that don't cut it for me. It
don't say nothing about oil or for that matter metal flylings/
metallic dust that always ends up settling on conduit above.


----------



## lighterup

MechanicalDVR said:


> Don't take this wrong but at some point you need to grow a set and tell an idiot customer it's your license and not to tell you how to do your job.
> 
> There is no way you should even think about putting your stamp on a machine shop using romex let alone reusing romex!
> 
> My God man how cheap an SOB do you want to work for?
> 
> You don't need a customer that tells you how to do your job....
> 
> There are numerous reasons romex is the wrong cable to associate in any manner with 'MACHINE Shop'.
> 
> And if he has romex for drops and thinks that's okay I'd just keep my mouth shut, turn and walk out!


:thumbsup:that's a fact ! What the H..E.. double hockey sticks is so-cord
invented for if romex meets code ?


----------



## macmikeman

Conversely, I have seen many open markee type auto workshops and machine shops, and warehouses, wired with emt exclusively where rust has attacked the conduits mercilessly over the years turning it all into a pile of reddish goo. Whereas had they wired it with Romex, (at least the stuff up high out of physical damage reach) it would be probably dirty as all get out by now, but still functioning well and intact . 

So lets all be honest. Neither method is foolproof in some situations. Sometimes , pvc is the proper answer.


----------



## MTW

Let's be honest here. What is going to happen to romex slung across bar joists in a shop ceiling other than looking ugly? Nothing.


----------



## Chris1971

MTW said:


> Let's be honest here. What is going to happen to romex slung across bar joists in a shop ceiling other than looking ugly? Nothing.


I'll tell you what's going to happen. The shat will be torn out and redone.:thumbsup:


----------



## MTW

Chris1971 said:


> I'll tell you what's going to happen. The shat will be torn out and redone.:thumbsup:


----------



## lighterup

I was being honost


----------



## John Valdes

lighterup said:


> NMC is "corrosion resistant" , but that don't cut it for me. It
> don't say nothing about oil or for that matter metal flylings/
> metallic dust that always ends up settling on conduit above.


That was kinda my point. NM does not say its oil resistant where THHN says it right on the jacket.


----------



## eddy current

In Canada we have a code for romex that says it can only be in buildings of combustible construction, or in other types of construction where acceptable. 12-504

It also says to check building code for specific details of other types of construction. I haven't checked but I bet in the building code it restricts it.

You must have something like that in the NEC?


----------



## paulengr

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


Romex is for where it is not subject to physical damage. Just take one look at the NEC section on NM and it will be painfully obvious that except maybe near the ceilings you can't do that. In the past the alternative would be rigid conduit at least for some of the run but that's changing. I would NOT recommend bus duct. It tends to develop arcing faults in the joints over time and the resulting mess is awful, and there's really no way to PM it. Industrial plants are phasing it out because of OSHA safety requirements. The European approach that is popular industrially here is cable trays and tray cable. MUCH cheaper than conduit but you still have to run conduit stubs and/or MC to the equipment. You can by the way run MC which is sort of the industrial version of Romex but its expensive and the TNCs aren't any better and special order. The latest option that I like the best is "exposed run rated" or TC-ER cable. This is tray cable that is tested to meet the mechanical requirements of MC but no armor so terminations are just CGBs (cord grips). You support it the same as Romex and MC and where you have multiple runs just drop in trays which is less labor that one or two hole straps and makes it very easy to replace/reroute later. Its quickly becoming standard in industrial plants because its the lowest cost not only for initial installation (no conduit runs) but ever try to remove wire from a conduit or pull extra years later? Most of the time you'll never get anything in/out ever again after a year or so. With TC-ER you just pull it out of the tray and/or roll out a new one and you're done.

With cable trays supports can be up to 40 feet apart. Within the tray depending on the cable type and whether it is vertical or not you might have to secure it with zip ties (that's what they were invented for!) to maintain spacing on bigger cables for amlacity but on smaller ones you can often just throw them in randomly without any order to it at all.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Going_Commando

jsmart84 said:


> So full scope includes removing all this old wiring all the way and re stringing it back up in a new location . Owner had machine shop in romex temporarily. Now there moving and wan to reuse it . It doesnt feel right at all. Id rather run 60 ft of 200 amp bus duct and put in bus plugs. Is there anything specifically saying he cant use romex? it is supported 4.5 ft except where it drops. Let me know your thoughts.


If I were you, I would take out my code book, flip to article 334, look at articles 334.10 and 334.12, and go from there.


----------



## varmit

Here are some code articles that would prohibit Romex in a machine shop.
334.10 (3)
334.24 (B) 2
110.11

Most AHJs will not allow Romex within 3 inches of metal siding or roofing. Also no practical and code compliant method comes to mind to attach Romex to the metal structure. Open air drops of Romex would for sure be a violation. 

I do a good amount of work in machine shop type places. The oil and coolants will devour rubber and plastics.


----------



## varmit

You say that this is a steel frame building with metal siding? If so it would be a Type 2 construction class. Romex (NM cable ) is only allowed in Types 3,4, and 5 construction. 

Romex as a temporary, non code compliant, wiring method is only allowed on construction sites, not in a "normal" permanent work place. So, this install was wrong from the beginning.


----------



## paulengr

This is what going back behind some jack leg looks like.

So there's an asphalt plant close to two major metro areas that needed to replace the fan drive on their baghouse. I didn't get into this until the tail end so I'm not 100% sure on all the up front details. It's family run and in the past the last guy in charge had the money but liked it better than we did so he was really slow to pay and ended up on credit hold with us. So they decided that we were too expensive anyways so went with company B.

Company B charged them $23K to come in and replace their fan motor and bearings and install a "new" soft starter where the existing drive was at. I don't know what was their previously but it was installed in a single 20" MCC section with a very narrow depth (12" I think).

Company B then bought used Ebay motor and soft start. I mean used...it was rusty and this came from a motor shop that was too cheap to even paint the motor before they sent it out. They didn't even pull the bearings and regrease them...just stick it in service with dried out grease and all. About the only thing new is that the pillow block bearings were new that they bought from us. The soft start was about 20 years old. They had 5 electricians there doing the installation and frankly I'm not sure what two or three were doing other than picking their butts because this is a 3 man/1 day job.

Then the fun starts and the dollars grow out of control. First the fan is vibrating so hard they freak out and call out a (cha-ching) technician to diagnose the vibration. It's not just balancing...the motor bearings are...surprise, shot. Can't even tell if the fan is a problem. So motor gets repaired (cha-ching). Newly rebuilt motor goes in. Now it needs balancing, too (cha-ching). Also while the balance tech is there he watched the seals smoke and walk right out of the bearing. Company B says it's just due to vibration (what? huh?) Fan gets balanced but not before motor blows smoke again and now needs full rewind due to failure that appears drive related (cha-ching).

Drive technician comes out and identifies that snubbers are shot within 15 minutes. Drive sticker says something like 20+ years old and snubbers are made with electrolytic capacitors which tend to dry out and fail after 8-10 years.. Company B says there was nothing wrong with the drive and they ran it in the shop and must be because the motor tore up the drive. Drive technician can't even warranty repairs because there is a snubber on the third phase and multiple electrolytic capacitors in the drive power supply that are likely to fail any time now, too. That's when the bomb shell hits that Company B is attempting to charge for all the labor repairing the motor, bearings, etc., over and above the original $23,000 quote. Job isn't even close to Code. Since the drive sticks out past the door, Company B simply left it with the MCC door wide open claiming that it's not any worse than they normally keep everything. Wiring was all mechanical lugs and split bolts. I think there were a half dozen wire nuts in there too.

Drives technician shakes his head and explains what the problem is and offers a brand new soft starter delivered and installed next day for about the price of the labor and materials to fix the existing drive (for now...no warranty). Drive technician even goes as far as offering a competitive quote of about $16,000 for the whole job using brand new factory authorized parts, over and above the credit hold/COD hassles. Customer goes from frustrated to pissed. Drives technician is scheduled to install starter on the very next day. Customer is up and running.With one small quick tune up to handle cold startups, customer is happy. Company B's biggest worry is recovering their EBay drive so that they can send it back for a refund after customer tells Company B to take a hike.

You can't make this crap up. Company B used crap parts did a crap installation, and was charging to the tune of $30,000 and climbing when quality workmanship and parts would have been about half the price. Only time I use EBay drives is when I'm desperate and so far the reliability has been 50/50.


----------



## Mulder

paulengr said:


> This is what going back behind some jack leg looks like.
> 
> So there's an asphalt plant close to two major metro areas that needed to replace the fan drive on their baghouse. I didn't get into this until the tail end so I'm not 100% sure on all the up front details. It's family run and in the past the last guy in charge had the money but liked it better than we did so he was really slow to pay and ended up on credit hold with us. So they decided that we were too expensive anyways so went with company B.
> 
> Company B charged them $23K to come in and replace their fan motor and bearings and install a "new" soft starter where the existing drive was at. I don't know what was their previously but it was installed in a single 20" MCC section with a very narrow depth (12" I think).
> 
> Company B then bought used Ebay motor and soft start. I mean used...it was rusty and this came from a motor shop that was too cheap to even paint the motor before they sent it out. They didn't even pull the bearings and regrease them...just stick it in service with dried out grease and all. About the only thing new is that the pillow block bearings were new that they bought from us. The soft start was about 20 years old. They had 5 electricians there doing the installation and frankly I'm not sure what two or three were doing other than picking their butts because this is a 3 man/1 day job.
> 
> Then the fun starts and the dollars grow out of control. First the fan is vibrating so hard they freak out and call out a (cha-ching) technician to diagnose the vibration. It's not just balancing...the motor bearings are...surprise, shot. Can't even tell if the fan is a problem. So motor gets repaired (cha-ching). Newly rebuilt motor goes in. Now it needs balancing, too (cha-ching). Also while the balance tech is there he watched the seals smoke and walk right out of the bearing. Company B says it's just due to vibration (what? huh?) Fan gets balanced but not before motor blows smoke again and now needs full rewind due to failure that appears drive related (cha-ching).
> 
> Drive technician comes out and identifies that snubbers are shot within 15 minutes. Drive sticker says something like 20+ years old and snubbers are made with electrolytic capacitors which tend to dry out and fail after 8-10 years.. Company B says there was nothing wrong with the drive and they ran it in the shop and must be because the motor tore up the drive. Drive technician can't even warranty repairs because there is a snubber on the third phase and multiple electrolytic capacitors in the drive power supply that are likely to fail any time now, too. That's when the bomb shell hits that Company B is attempting to charge for all the labor repairing the motor, bearings, etc., over and above the original $23,000 quote. Job isn't even close to Code. Since the drive sticks out past the door, Company B simply left it with the MCC door wide open claiming that it's not any worse than they normally keep everything. Wiring was all mechanical lugs and split bolts. I think there were a half dozen wire nuts in there too.
> 
> Drives technician shakes his head and explains what the problem is and offers a brand new soft starter delivered and installed next day for about the price of the labor and materials to fix the existing drive (for now...no warranty). Drive technician even goes as far as offering a competitive quote of about $16,000 for the whole job using brand new factory authorized parts, over and above the credit hold/COD hassles. Customer goes from frustrated to pissed. Drives technician is scheduled to install starter on the very next day. Customer is up and running.With one small quick tune up to handle cold startups, customer is happy. Company B's biggest worry is recovering their EBay drive so that they can send it back for a refund after customer tells Company B to take a hike.
> 
> You can't make this crap up. Company B used crap parts did a crap installation, and was charging to the tune of $30,000 and climbing when quality workmanship and parts would have been about half the price. Only time I use EBay drives is when I'm desperate and so far the reliability has been 50/50.




I thought this thread was about NM cable in a machine shop.


----------



## telsa

paulengr said:


> This is what going back behind some jack leg looks like.
> 
> So there's an asphalt plant close to two major metro areas that needed to replace the fan drive on their baghouse. I didn't get into this until the tail end so I'm not 100% sure on all the up front details. It's family run and in the past the last guy in charge had the money but liked it better than we did so he was really slow to pay and ended up on credit hold with us. So they decided that we were too expensive anyways so went with company B.
> 
> Company B charged them $23K to come in and replace their fan motor and bearings and install a "new" soft starter where the existing drive was at. I don't know what was their previously but it was installed in a single 20" MCC section with a very narrow depth (12" I think).
> 
> Company B then bought used Ebay motor and soft start. I mean used...it was rusty and this came from a motor shop that was too cheap to even paint the motor before they sent it out. They didn't even pull the bearings and regrease them...just stick it in service with dried out grease and all. About the only thing new is that the pillow block bearings were new that they bought from us. The soft start was about 20 years old. They had 5 electricians there doing the installation and frankly I'm not sure what two or three were doing other than picking their butts because this is a 3 man/1 day job.
> 
> Then the fun starts and the dollars grow out of control. First the fan is vibrating so hard they freak out and call out a (cha-ching) technician to diagnose the vibration. It's not just balancing...the motor bearings are...surprise, shot. Can't even tell if the fan is a problem. So motor gets repaired (cha-ching). Newly rebuilt motor goes in. Now it needs balancing, too (cha-ching). Also while the balance tech is there he watched the seals smoke and walk right out of the bearing. Company B says it's just due to vibration (what? huh?) Fan gets balanced but not before motor blows smoke again and now needs full rewind due to failure that appears drive related (cha-ching).
> 
> Drive technician comes out and identifies that snubbers are shot within 15 minutes. Drive sticker says something like 20+ years old and snubbers are made with electrolytic capacitors which tend to dry out and fail after 8-10 years.. Company B says there was nothing wrong with the drive and they ran it in the shop and must be because the motor tore up the drive. Drive technician can't even warranty repairs because there is a snubber on the third phase and multiple electrolytic capacitors in the drive power supply that are likely to fail any time now, too. That's when the bomb shell hits that Company B is attempting to charge for all the labor repairing the motor, bearings, etc., over and above the original $23,000 quote. Job isn't even close to Code. Since the drive sticks out past the door, Company B simply left it with the MCC door wide open claiming that it's not any worse than they normally keep everything. Wiring was all mechanical lugs and split bolts. I think there were a half dozen wire nuts in there too.
> 
> Drives technician shakes his head and explains what the problem is and offers a brand new soft starter delivered and installed next day for about the price of the labor and materials to fix the existing drive (for now...no warranty). Drive technician even goes as far as offering a competitive quote of about $16,000 for the whole job using brand new factory authorized parts, over and above the credit hold/COD hassles. Customer goes from frustrated to pissed. Drives technician is scheduled to install starter on the very next day. Customer is up and running.With one small quick tune up to handle cold startups, customer is happy. Company B's biggest worry is recovering their EBay drive so that they can send it back for a refund after customer tells Company B to take a hike.
> 
> You can't make this crap up. Company B used crap parts did a crap installation, and was charging to the tune of $30,000 and climbing when quality workmanship and parts would have been about half the price. Only time I use EBay drives is when I'm desperate and so far the reliability has been 50/50.



Deserves its own thread. :thumbsup:

BTW, that's not a description of a jackleg -- it's the description of a fool -- as in the contracting customer.


----------

