# phase taping conductors



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

200.6 or .7 some where in that area.


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

william1978 said:


> 200.6 or .7 some where in that area.


I see what you mean but, article 200 is for grounded conductors. what if you have a white # 6 awg wire and want to phase the wire to make it a ungrounded conductor? Anyone seen an article saying no to that?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cal said:


> I see what you mean but, article 200 is for grounded conductors. what if you have a white # 6 awg wire and want to phase the wire to make it a ungrounded conductor? Anyone seen an article saying no to that?


 
Is it part of a cable assembly?


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Is it part of a cable assembly?


-just thhn in e.m.t., The thhn is white already.

2 blacks, 1 white all #6 thhn., I wanna tape the white to another color to use these same conductors for a 3 phase piece of equipment and yes I do have 3 phase power in the panel these wires come from.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cal said:


> -just thhn in e.m.t., The thhn is white already.


Then you need to get a color other than white or grey.


----------



## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Then you need to get a color other than white or grey.


Or green.:thumbsup:


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Then you need to get a color other than white or grey.


so..... basically you're telling me that you have no idea if it's code or not to do this? If you already got the wire and you already got the tape then...... why would you go buy more wire? any code telling me not to?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

cal said:


> any code telling me not to?


 110.12:thumbsup:


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

cal said:


> so..... basically you're telling me that you have no idea if it's code or not to do this? If you already got the wire and you already got the tape then...... why would you go buy more wire? any code telling me not to?


try reading 200.7 (2005) again. if you think it allows you to use the white conductor for anything except a grounded conductor, read again. repeat if necessary.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

*200.7(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.* The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3). 
(1).If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.

That doesn't work.

(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. 

Nope.

(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

Sorry, not a cord.


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> *200.7(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.* The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
> (1).If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
> 
> That doesn't work.
> ...


This is a great response! thanks, I still don't get where that guy came up with the #4 awg and smaller though.... Thanks for the info though.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cal said:


> This is a great response! thanks, I still don't get where that guy came up with the #4 awg and smaller though.... Thanks for the info though.


Maybe fom:

*200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.* An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Maybe fom:
> 
> *200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
> (A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller.* An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.


Ya i read that but, that article does'nt apply to this application of reidentifying a conductor. It tells you how a grounded conductor must be identified. That last quote you had was the ticket.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cal said:


> Ya i read that but, that article does'nt apply to this application of reidentifying a conductor. It tells you how a grounded conductor must be identified. That last quote you had was the ticket.


And you owe 480 an apology! For you insinuation that he did not know what he is talking about.


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

While it's technically illegal I have done it before and probably would again if the circumstances were right.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> While it's technically illegal I have done it before and probably would again if the circumstances were right.


Yeah, if I have red, black, and white, but I need red, black, and blue, I'm not readily going to pull out 100' of wire just to change the color. Tape or Sharpie will worl just fine.


----------



## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

I've used the sharpie trick in a pinch, run a piece of white tape long ways up the conductor, from the point it enters the box to the end and then color it with a colored sharpie. It works good when you have no other option.


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd use the white to pull in a blue or an orange. Think about the next guy who opens up a coupling to install a box and assumes the white is a grounded conductor. Happens.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Phase taping*

Cal, I have been wrong before but I think that a grounded conductor is only a grounded conductor after if installed and the system is ready for energization. I would tape the wire to indicate what purpose it serves at all j-boxes and all other openings of the system.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

waco said:


> I'd use the white to pull in a blue or an orange. Think about the next guy who opens up a coupling to install a box and assumes the white is a grounded conductor. Happens.


Same here. With conduit you can do these things quite easily. 
However, I just re identified a #10 the other day. I did it here at home. Turned a green into a white for a dryer. I used the EMT for the ground.
I used white tape and covered as much of the green as possible. I would have painted it, if I had more time.


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Cal, I have been wrong before but I think that a grounded conductor is only a grounded conductor after if installed and the system is ready for energization. I would tape the wire to indicate what purpose it serves at all j-boxes and all other openings of the system.


That would violate 200.7(A)

Also the definition of grounded conductor does not depend on whether or not the system is energized but whether or not the conductor is intentionally grounded.



> Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.


Chris


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Phase taping*



raider1 said:


> That would violate 200.7(A)
> 
> Also the definition of grounded conductor does not depend on whether or not the system is energized but whether or not the conductor is intentionally grounded.
> 
> ...


 The point I was trying to make was that if there is a reel of WHITE #2 awg wire laying out in a field...it is NOT a neutral wire.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Just pull the damn wire. Use the white for a pull wire, lube it and pull it. How hard is that.


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

pull a new wire 
tape and paint fall off 
white is the issue if it were any other color I'd say change the color with paint or tape but being white tells everyone that is a grounded conductor *when in a pipe.*:no:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> The point I was trying to make was that if there is a reel of WHITE #2 awg wire laying out in a field...it is NOT a neutral wire.


 No it is scrap.:jester:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> Just pull the damn wire. Use the white for a pull wire, lube it and pull it. How hard is that.


 What he said.:thumbsup:


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

brian john said:


> And you owe 480 an apology! For you insinuation that he did not know what he is talking about.


Ha, I thought we are all adults here......... I did'nt realize how easily feelings get hurt. okay i am sorry.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cal said:


> Ha, I thought we are all adults here......... I did'nt realize how easily feelings get hurt. okay i am sorry.


Gee. I was unaware my feelings were ever hurt.:001_huh:


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

waco said:


> I'd use the white to pull in a blue or an orange. Think about the next guy who opens up a coupling to install a box and assumes the white is a grounded conductor. Happens.


 I think the next guy should do a little research that way he knows what he is tieing into. One of the first rules I learned is never assume anything.


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Gee. I was unaware my feelings were ever hurt.:001_huh:


Ya, see it's all good. by the way you come up with great answers for these posts. Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> I think the next guy should do a little research that way he knows what he is tieing into. One of the first rules I learned is never assume anything.


This is one of the best statements for any job! You're right, once you start assuming stuff that's when everything goes down hill fast.


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

cal said:


> This is one of the best statements for any job! You're right, once you start assuming stuff that's when everything goes down hill fast.


 I learned that years ago when I hooked up a fart fan for a buddy. Problem was I tied it in to a 240v circuit. I flipped the switch and, WOW that thing really moves some air. About that time all the smoke fell out. Oops:whistling2:


----------



## cal (Nov 1, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> I learned that years ago when I hooked up a fart fan for a buddy. Problem was I tied it in to a 240v circuit. I flipped the switch and, WOW that thing really moves some air. About that time all the smoke fell out. Oops:whistling2:


Ha, ya that happens! I went to a job a while back where a guy burnt up a brand new copy machine because he did the same thing. The guys that did the previous job had used the neutral for a hot and never taped it a phase color. so..... the owner assumed he had a hot and a neutral. But.... that assumption was wrong and he hooked it up to 220 volts instead of 120 volts!


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

cal said:


> Ha, ya that happens! I went to a job a while back where a guy burnt up a brand new copy machine because he did the same thing. The guys that did the previous job had used the neutral for a hot and never taped it a phase color. so..... the owner assumed he had a hot and a neutral. But.... that assumption was wrong and he hooked it up to 220 volts instead of 120 volts!


I was involved in a remodel where the original electrician was fired. Turns out he wired a bunch of receptacles to the 208 V high leg. Well, when all home theater showcases were turned on... _poof! _He assumed and fried like $20k worth of electronics.


----------



## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

cal said:


> I was told that the nec code does not allow conductors smaller than 4 awg to be phased with tape. Does anyone know where this would be found in the nec? Is there anything in chapter 3 or anywhere else for that matter that states this? Thanks for any ideas.


210.5(C) Branch Circuits - one place in the NEC where it specifically states you "shall be permitted" to color code conductors "by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means." 

I seriously doubt all his branch circuits are #4 or larger! :blink: When someone desires to inform you what the NEC says - have them show you! :whistling2:


----------



## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

BTW - As far as the "smaller than #4" - I have seen the requirement of #6 and larger as being the only conductor sizes allowed to be taped in MANY clients specs over the years. Falling back to Art 110.12.


----------



## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I found that if you phase tape the intire exposed wire at each location it is availble the inspector will not ding you. But he can require you to pull in a wire other than white, gray or green. I'm sure some inspector will soon see this and point out exactly where it says you cannot phase tape a wire smaller than #4.
David


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

David Channell said:


> I found that if you phase tape the intire exposed wire at each location it is availble the inspector will not ding you. But he can require you to pull in a wire other than white, gray or green. I'm sure some inspector will soon see this and point out exactly where it says you cannot phase tape a wire smaller than #4.
> David


200.6 permits wires larger than #6 to be phased taped white or grey to identify a grounded conductor.

250.119(A) permits wires larger than #6 to be phase taper green to identify an equipment grounding conductor.

As far as 210.5(C) goes there is no limit to the size for the wires that can be identified by phase taping. For example on ungrounded conductors you can phase tape a #12 conductor.

Chris


----------



## Marshall175 (May 23, 2009)

Anyone have any idea why #6 or smaller neutral and ground wires must have green or white insulation and not just be identified at the point of termination? 
Just curious how they picked that size.... 

our inspector made us re-pull all of our grounds and neutrals that were black and taped. Lot of #6 and #8 scraps.....


----------



## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

I can tell you why I think it is required. If there are multipule pulling points (j-boxes) along a run, the chance of someone opening up a j-box and cutting into what they think is an ungrounded conductor is very possible, and since it is possible to get all colors in wires up thru size 6, it makes sense to require the proper colored wires end to end to prevent the next person who is adding outlets from making a mistake.
David


----------



## htneighbors (Jan 23, 2009)

David Channell said:


> I can tell you why I think it is required. If there are multipule pulling points (j-boxes) along a run, *the chance of someone opening up a j-box and cutting into what they think is an ungrounded conductor is very possible*, and since *it is possible to get all colors in wires up thru size 6*, it makes sense to require the proper colored wires end to end to prevent the next person who is adding outlets from making a mistake.
> David


*TRUE :thumbsup:*

*You can also get conductors larger than #6 in colors... :thumbup:*


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

You are not supposed to reidentify a wire smaller than #4 except in a few cases. One is you can feed down on white up on black. Cant remember if any others no book with me.


----------

