# Love the union ...hate the officials...please help .



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Sounds like you got under someone's skin and now you are black balled.

"Docked" *100* hours for late reports????? I'd be in someone's face so fast their head would spin!!


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Sounds like you got under someone's skin and now you are black balled.
> 
> "Docked" *100* hours for late reports????? I'd be in someone's face so fast their head would spin!!


Beleive me...I have been ... no one wants to return my calls , or discuss ANYTHING . Can't wait to turn out and get on the apprenticeship comitee...maybe I'll run for BA , get the wormy sob's out of there so we can train qualified Union members , not back scratchers .


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

do you have a shop steward? If so, they should be able to offer some guidance.

as to working out of state; no, it is often not against contract. Some locals take in all sorts of kids and more or less tell them if they want to work they will have to travel. Can;t remember the local but somewhere mid country southern state was notorious for this. As long as the apprentice has his traveling papers from his local he can run the country.


> Recently , I was laid off because the company I worked for did not want me to work on the same job as my husband (he has been a union wireman for 23 years ) . I called BS on this , tried to talk with my BA , director , and even my local I.O. rep . All that happened was an apprenticeship meeting , which I was invited to . The director flat out asked the contractor if she had a problem with me working on the same job as my husband ....she said yes , and that was the end of it .


I have no problem with this either. I do not like to see married couples working together. As much as they try, home life often comes to work and is a distraction.

If you are attractive, although not acceptable to me, you will get looks and comments that can tend to infuriate the spouse which ends up with some guy getting tossed off the top of some building. An ugly thing that is easily prevented.


> My first year in the trade , I had to teach another apprentice how to bend conduit , wire fixtures , and terminate .


and the problem here is?

Teaching another is part of my daily life. Granted, I am a JIW but what rules stops you from passing on knowledge you have acquired?



> 90% of the first year was me teaching myself how to do my job


I agree, this is a problem.

.


> I contacted my BA quite a few times about this ( apprentices should not be working alone or together by themselves in the first year ) nothing was done . I contacted my apprentice director , he blew it off


.You are correct. This is not allowable. You have a couple avenues.



> I was told that I HAD to work 277 live , was left alone for 8 hours (no other wire man within 5 miles of me ) .


then you should have told them NO. You are ultimately responsible for your own safety. 

At that time, you should have called the apprenticeship director, the BA, and if possible, the chairman of the apprenticeship commitee (if you can do conference call, this would be an ideal use) and inform them of the unsafe and improper situation.

So, the avenues available to you:
apprenticeship director
apprenticeship committe (you can request to be heard at a meeting)
BA 

then things get serious

You can file a grievance against anybody that requires or demands you work contrary to your contract (which includes safety requirements in some manner)

IF your union rep refuses to accept a grievance on your behalf, you need to contact the IO rep (apparently you know who he his and how to contact)

If no success, you continue up the line at the IO.

There are a few other avenues but you need to exhaust these first.

I will also print this thread and take it to work and speak with the steward on my job to see if he has any recommendations or direction.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

You could also ask for an ROF and wait for another call with a different contractor. Our local is very strong and something like this would have never happened. Lucky for us all of the contractors I have worked for understood and followed the "Agreement". Also, when I worked outside of our locals jurisdiction, it had to be approved by the other local and all of their apprentices had to be working.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

> I'm a 3rd year union apprentice out of local 768 . I have been fighting from day one to get the education I need to do my job when I'm turned out . My first year in the trade , I had to teach another apprentice how to bend conduit , wire fixtures , and terminate . 90% of the first year was me teaching myself how to do my job . I contacted my BA quite a few times about this ( apprentices should not be working alone or together by themselves in the first year ) nothing was done . I contacted my apprentice director , he blew it off . I was told that I HAD to work 277 live , was left alone for 8 hours (no other wire man within 5 miles of me ) .


It's called teamwork or helping a brother out. I'm not impressed with a third year knowing how to bend conduit, land wires, or tie black to black, white to white etc, especially if they have a spouse in the trade. You sound almost like you're bragging or want a pat on the back. If you did not want to work on live circuits you should say no. I don't get the impression you bite your tongue much. To be honest, you sound like trouble.



> Recently , I was laid off because the company I worked for did not want me to work on the same job as my husband (he has been a union wireman for 23 years ) .


Did they not have any other jobs? If not, then maybe you should learn to pipe down when work is slow. If they had work, then maybe you should learn to pipe down as a third year apprentice.



> I am now in BFE , working on a wind farm 150 miles away in another district .


You are not required to work out of your jurisdiction are you? I know many of us have seen those T-shirts that say "want to see the world? Piss off your BA" . I think you are learning that. You should probably have went to your JW, foreman, Steward, or PM first and not go over their heads. You don't have to do anything that may cause you harm, but you should learn how to approach AD's, BA's etc. From the tone of your post , I'm not sure you do.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

I unsderstand and agree with the tenor of the other posters replies but there are still some irregularities that are very wrong.

After speaking with the steward on my job, his suggested steps were;

speak with your JW
speak with your steward
speak with your apprenticeship coordinator
bring the situation to the floor of the union meeting

after that, he believed the situation would be addressed so he went no further.

Once you exhaust these steps and have no resolution, come on back and I will seek further direction. Since you seem to have already attempted 3 of the 4 steps he suggested, in less than a month you should be able to utilize the last. Come on back with what is happening.


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

"daddymac"...how do I respond to your post ....while I appreciate the advice , I believe the old phrase "don't judge a book by it's cover " applies to this situation . If you took my post as bragging...well I don't know what to tell you other than you read it wrong . I help my brothers EVERY chance I get , Organized or not . My point in the whole post is why have a 5 year program when for the first 3 years I'm learning all of it on my own . I am an apprentice because I'm here to learn from journeymen...good and bad . 

I would have to ask what my husband has anything to do with me knowing anything about the trade...especially when we don't work together . I understand that people feel uncomfortable with man and wife teams...some screw it up for others . I believe it's no different than a father and son working together .

As for me biting my tongue.....I did for the first year . I got tired of being ****ed around . We are UNION for a reason and EVERYONE deserves to be educated the same ...be it school or work . Let me ask you a question....are you afraid that if you stand up for Union rules to the contractor that you'll piss off your BA and the contractor ? Are you for the Union or are you for what the Union can do for you ?

I don't think that anyone realizes that withholding a job from someone just because their spouse is on that job is against our contract and the law . I am not the type of person that plays that card...at times I wish I was .

As far as working out of my jurisdiction is concerend....Our state may be big ...but only in land . We have to travel when times get slow . The reason I brought up going to the wind farms was because my friend the app. director said there was no work in my local . I found out 2 weeks ago that an apprentice was transfered down there when I first talked with my director . Please don't talk with me about contacting my steward , JW , or BA....most of the time I don't have a JW....Most jobs I've been on have no steward , and our BA just got our rights to trials taken away from us because the I.O. jerked it for having the same people on the trial board and appeals board . So .... as far as you telling me to talk to certain people before going to the top notch guys...I did . My tone comes from being so frustrated that no-one cares about us "lowly" apprentices . 

Do all of you really want JW's just turned out who have spent more time training themselves than they have with a JW ? We are your future . We will be the ones to insure that your legacy lives on....not to mention part of your bennies . If you don't teach us....will the Union's name still mean craftsmanship , hard work , and loyalty to your brother ? 

Just a little P.S. to macdaddy.....as I said my husband has been IBEW for 23 years , his father is retired IBEW.....they BOTH told me to stand up not just for myself ...but for the future . Things might be all roses for you in your local , but it's not here .


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Sounds almost exactly like my local in FL. I have taught myself 85% of my time in the apprenticeship so far and it sucks. Defeats the whole purpose of apprenticeship. Here in FL some companies like to give 5th years jobs as foremen but at 5th year pay of course. And the hall, they seem to work for the contractor, ALWAYS! Best thing to do is grin and bear it because they will make your apprenticeship hell. Or I'll P.M. you the OR.


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

surfbh said:


> Sounds almost exactly like my local in FL. I have taught myself 85% of my time in the apprenticeship so far and it sucks. Defeats the whole purpose of apprenticeship. Here in FL some companies like to give 5th years jobs as foremen but at 5th year pay of course. And the hall, they seem to work for the contractor, ALWAYS! Best thing to do is grin and bear it because they will make your apprenticeship hell. Or I'll P.M. you the OR.


I know I'll get through it , I just want it to be better for others in the future.....Is the same guy making our lives hell..or are they just cloning them !! Guess the only thing to do is turn out and try to help out after that .


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

> =unionwirewoman;39685]"
> 
> I don't think that anyone realizes that withholding a job from someone just because their spouse is on that job is against our contract and the law .


Prove it. I challenge you to put forth a law or union rule that dissallows this.



> Please don't talk with me about contacting my steward , JW , or BA....most of the time I don't have a JW....Most jobs I've been on have no steward , and our BA just got our rights to trials taken away from us because the I.O. jerked it for having the same people on the trial board and appeals board . So .... as far as you telling me to talk to certain people before going to the top notch guys...I did . My tone comes from being so frustrated that no-one cares about us "lowly" apprentices .


I gave you the directions as given to me by a steward (and a pretty good one at that). Now you want to argue those. I stated in my post that it appears you have already exhausted all of these up to the "bring it to the union meeting floor". I see you did not address that. Have you done this yet? You have to take the steps in order. If you want to skip steps, the people at the next level will tell you to go back and follow order. 




> Do all of you really want JW's just turned out who have spent more time training themselves than they have with a JW ? We are your future . We will be the ones to insure that your legacy lives on....not to mention part of your bennies . If you don't teach us....will the Union's name still mean craftsmanship , hard work , and loyalty to your brother ?


No I don't. That is why I took the time to seek advice. Advice you seem to complain about. Have you taken all the steps I suggested? If so, and there has been no action, I will seek more advice. If not, then do so and let us know how things turn out.


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

Sorry nap...I did try to bring it up at a meeting...twice actually...but to my dismay , we rarely have a quorum to have a meeting . I was told by my father in law to take these steps also (He is retired 45 years IBEW ).....I took his advice to no avail . I guess politics here are different ? I don't mean this in a bad way , but all I seem to get is the run around of...so and so said this , I talk to so and so and they say ..no it should be this way...I'll make a call . It all goes around in one big circle , and nothing gets resolved . The one issue I had I finally went to our district I.O rep and he said he didn't deal with apprentice issues .

nap...if I knew how to work the computer properly I would bring up the resources you asked for .....maybe I can get my husband to do it tomorrow before we leave for work . I'm still trying to figure out how to put pics up for this website....you should see me type ! At my age (28) you'd think I'd be better at all this stuff !


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

Here is my view on apprentices. Apprenticeship refers to the period of service as a learner of a trade. The apprentice is bound by mutual agreement to serve a Master for a fixed number of years during which the master promises to instruct him, provide him with a good academic education, pay him a decent livable wage and make him a good electrician.
I have trained 3 apprentices in my career and I take it very seriously to make sure that the apprentice gets the proper skills, experience and knowledge to become a journeyman. 

Now are you getting this from the union? If not it may be time to move on and find a better situation in order to become an electrician. It appears that the IBEW local is not adhering to the age old tradition of “Apprenticeship” and you may have to look outside the union in order to get what you want. Sometimes the union environment is not a good fit for some people.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

nap said:


> Prove it. I challenge you to put forth a law or union rule that dissallows this.
> 
> That is considered an Unfair Labor Practice by the National Labor Relations Act and it also violates the IBEW Constitution. Article 25 Section 1 (g). That is just off the top of my head.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

cannibalism


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

All I can say about this situation is most JW, foremans, owners and the hall that I have been associated with want an apprentice that causes no problems PERIOD. Cause problems and you'll be balck balled.

Is it right no, but that it is a way of life.

I try to treat my apprentice decent, they get above union benefits (vacation and sick leave) some make above scale. But I do not want a thorn in my side.

Ask the good electricians on this site how many are self taught, and I bet some of the best are. Why because they have the brains to look around and figure things out. The non-self taught are still driving the truck, carrying material and are not the nor never will be, and the best do not whine and complain either.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

True, learning for yourself can be the best way to learn, unless I am teaching myself a wrong way of doing something.

One thing I have learned is that most JW seem to be not too receptive when an apprentice attempts to cite a NEC code requirement. I try to word it carefully, like "I believe the NEC requires..." or "I believe we're required to..." not "The NEC says..." or "The Code requires...".

I got responses like "Don't recite the Code to me." and "Don't quote the Code to me." and "The Code is what I interpret it to be." 

One JW just said to realize that not everything you see being done is 'to code', and just keep that in mind. He said to not contradict or argue with a JW about methods, but when I am doing something, have the confidence to do what I know is correct.

I have not experienced any of the problems as the original poster in my apprenticeship. Hopefully, all locals can be blessed with first-rate leadership.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BP_redbear said:


> True, learning for yourself can be the best way to learn, unless I am teaching myself a wrong way of doing something.


I always reviewed the NEC and read all I could on the subject at hand.



> One thing I have learned is that most JW seem to be not too receptive when an apprentice attempts to cite a NEC code requirement. I try to word it carefully, like "I believe the NEC requires..." or "I believe we're required to..." not "The NEC says..." or "The Code requires...".


Or "We just learned in school"



> I got responses like "Don't recite the Code to me." and "Don't quote the Code to me." and "The Code is what I interpret it to be."


Look there are small minded people everywhere, as part of your training you have to learn to deal with these jerks, and VOW not to become one of them.




> Hopefully, all locals can be blessed with first-rate leadership.


 Hopefully all ELECTRICIANS can be blessed with first rate leadership


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

surfbh said:


> nap said:
> 
> 
> > Prove it. I challenge you to put forth a law or union rule that dissallows this.
> ...


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

All I can say about this situation is most JW, foremans, owners and the hall that I have been associated with want an apprentice that causes no problems PERIOD. Cause problems and you'll be balck balled.

*Same way here. *

Is it right no, but that it is a way of life.

I try to treat my apprentice decent, they get above union benefits (vacation and sick leave) some make above scale. But I do not want a thorn in my side.

*Smart business man. You know if you give a little more than the other contractors your guys will appreciate it and you'll benfit in many ways. Never would happen here. Hardly any contractors can even live up to the agreement they signed.*

Ask the good electricians on this site how many are self taught, and I bet some of the best are. Why because they have the brains to look around and figure things out. The non-self taught are still driving the truck, carrying material and are not the nor never will be, and the best do not whine and complain either.

*I have been mainly self taught which is fine for the most part, but I can't teach myself all those tricks that make things easier that have been passed down for generations. Right now at work, nobody is usually around to ask a question to. Can be frustrating. One thing I like about running conduit on my own though is I don't have a JW forcing his way of bending on me, I have my own, it works and that's the way I'm doing it, go mess up your own pipe! By the way I bend all emt with a combo of center of bend and measured rise.*


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

First, to the IBEW constitution:

(this part was kind of a trick question)

Not hardly. The constitution does not rule the employers actions. Where did you get the idea it does?

*I thought she was being held out by the director or biz mgr etc. which would make it a violation. I was wrong! *



so, to the NLRA. The NLRA deals with a persons right to unionize, it does not control this situation. If you have some section within the NLRA that does control, please at least list a citation. 

*If she was held out by the director or biz mgr. etc., then it would be considered an unfair labor practice. Section 8 of the act. If the union is screwing its members, members do have recourse with the act.*


So, what laws do control protections of ones civil rights? How about the laws enforced by the EEOC such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Do any of those laws cover marital status? If you can find any, I am more than willing to read it.

Montana does have a state law that deals with civil rights based on marital status. 

Montana code 49-2-303:


I believe the problem those reading this and considering this to be an illegal action are making the mistake that the discrimination is based upon marital status. IT ISN'T. It is based upon the fact the OP's husband was also employed by the same contractor. A world of difference. To make a case for marital discrimination, you would have to show that this empoyer refused to hire all married people, which obvioulsy is not the case since the OP's husband does work there and is in fact married.

The decision to not hire the OP was based on the fact her husband works for that company. The fact they are married is only important because it is what makes the relationship. An employer can refuse to hire relatives if they so desire. Personally, I believe it makes good sense. There are problems inherent to a married couple that are difficult to keep out of the work place.

So surf, maybe you would care to dig a bit deeper into your head?

*I was thinking it was her director holding her out, I was wrong I admit it.*

Any other takers with non-specific claims of illegal actions?

Please be more specific with your claims though. It is easier to refute them


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

I appreciate the response. 

can we teach you how to block quote so it makes a cleaner post for you?


To begin with, click on the quote button on the bottom of the post you wish to quote. You can quote multiple posts as well. Then, go into what shows up and remove the "quote" at the beginning and end of everything.



> Then highlight the section you wish to address at the moment and go up and click the little symbol that looks like a balloon used for talking in drawings (the one to the right of the little square with the mountains in it). So it will do this to it.


Then place your cursor after the "quote" and type your response.

You can delete anything on the page not wanted or needed. Just hit enter a few times to add space between your response and the next following quote.

Not trying to be a know-it-all but it appears you are not familiar with this possibility. It makes what you are addressing and your response into seperate sections. that are quite easy to read.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

unionwirewoman said:


> Beleive me...I have been ... no one wants to return my calls , or discuss ANYTHING . Can't wait to turn out and get on the apprenticeship comitee...maybe I'll run for BA , get the wormy sob's out of there so we can train qualified Union members , not back scratchers .


 
I guess my opinion isn't worth that much, but I salute you for sticking up for yourself, especially being a female:thumbsup: If you alone won't speak up for yourself, than you really can't expect anyone else to do so. I have heard BS in the field like this isn't a woman's job, B*llsh*t, you can do anything us males can do and maybe better. You may not make any friends with the higher up's, but I say you stand your ground from the get go.

It was your choice to enter the field, you best stick by your guns and give it 110%. Don't take any sh*t from anyone. Work your *ss off and when you have a problem, get it resolved, or at least don't take it in the rear

Don't EVER let anyone tell you this isn't women's work. Give it 110% and show your younger brothers and sisters how it's done right from the get go!!!!!!

I'd give you my opinion on the Union, but I would be sure to get banned from this forum. Don't take any grief from anyone, work your *ss off, and suck in all the knowledge you can. Don't ever let one person be a roadblock for you. Don't bow down to anyone, and be the best you can be.

I wish you all the best. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

76nemo said:


> It was your choice to enter the field, you best stick by your guns and give it 110%. Don't take any sh*t from anyone. Work your *ss off and when you have a problem, get it resolved, or at least don't take it in the rear
> 
> Don't EVER let anyone tell you this isn't women's work. Give it 110% and show your younger brothers and sisters how it's done right from the get go!!!!!!
> quote]
> ...


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

nap said:


> can we teach you how to block quote so it makes a cleaner post for you?


I appreciate the tips nap, I can get the one quote, but have had trouble trying to get multiple quotes in the same response. Sometimes the quote will be there, but the name of the poster I quoted won't be.

Takes practice, apparently.

Perhaps a sticky on one of the 'READ THIS before posting' forums with tips or instructions for qouting would be helpful (it would be to me).

Is there already one?


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

to get multiple quotes, click on the " mark within each post you want to include in your post. Then click on the "post reply" at the end of the thread.

You can then go in and edit as desired. Using "preview post" will allow you to view how the post will appear before actually posting it as well. It allows me to correct some of my mistakes or when I screwed up the quote tags and such and does not come through clear.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

nap said:


> 76nemo said:
> 
> 
> > It was your choice to enter the field, you best stick by your guns and give it 110%. Don't take any sh*t from anyone. Work your *ss off and when you have a problem, get it resolved, or at least don't take it in the rear
> ...


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

> "daddymac"...how do I respond to your post ....while I appreciate the advice , I believe the old phrase "don't judge a book by it's cover " applies to this situation . If you took my post as bragging...well I don't know what to tell you other than you read it wrong . I help my brothers EVERY chance I get , Organized or not . My point in the whole post is why have a 5 year program when for the first 3 years I'm learning all of it on my own . I am an apprentice because I'm here to learn from journeymen...good and bad .


While I don't know you personally, this isnt the first time I have seen this story. After years in the trade you've seen many apprentices try to talk the talk but are clueless as to what they are talking about.

I guess many of us are wondering what you are so fired up about? You said you have been fighting since day one. I know in my day, one of the first lessons in school was if you don't like it, quit. It may not be for everyone.

I felt good when I was able to work alone as a cub. It meant they had faith in me to do the job right. Would you rather have a JW hold your hand on everything? or not let you do nothing? I got a feeling you would be complaining about either of those situations as well.

What do you want to be taught??? Are you not having classes? Paying attention at work is a good way of learning. YOU ARE NEVER GONNA KNOW EVERYTHING.



> I would have to ask what my husband has anything to do with me knowing anything about the trade...especially when we don't work together .


I would think your husband could teach you some things since you feel that your OJT is lacking. Just as others on this thread have noticed, you seem to skip a lot of obvious steps. 

And married couples are a little different then father son etc. Father, son don't bring personal stuff to work. Husband and wife often ride together so if one is late, both are. Not saying that is the case with you, but it happens.



> As for me biting my tongue.....I did for the first year . I got tired of being ****ed around . We are UNION for a reason and EVERYONE deserves to be educated the same ...be it school or work


Again... A lot of words. We are not all gonna be educated the same. You may spend more time in commercial while someone else does more industrial. I'm thrilled you want to learn but pace yourself. You will be learning this trade for the duration of your career.



> Let me ask you a question....are you afraid that if you stand up for Union rules to the contractor that you'll piss off your BA and the contractor ? Are you for the Union or are you for what the Union can do for you ?


 I know how to approach people to get things done. Flying off the handle is not option one for me. I also know how to pick my battles. A few years ago I attacked a guy on a job for accusing my cub of hitting a wall with a lift. Now I will buy my cubs lunch and stand up for them. But they WILL lock up gang boxes , ladders, and sweep.And I don't wanna hear any whining about it.

Now you like to spout all this Union stuff but someone needs to show you how it really is cause whats on paper is not whats always out on the job. 

Read my post in other threads and you can see how I stand up for the union.



> Do all of you really want JW's just turned out who have spent more time training themselves than they have with a JW ? We are your future .


Maybe it's just you. Is it possible no one wants to work with you? You just seem to complain about the wrong stuff to me. Please be specific and tell me what you want from a JW.
What are the comments on your reports? Confront the person who fills it out. Tell them that you don't feel comfortable working alone, or you need help figuring something out. Problem solved.




> Just a little P.S. to macdaddy.....as I said my husband has been IBEW for 23 years , his father is retired IBEW.....they BOTH told me to stand up not just for myself ...but for the future . Things might be all roses for you in your local , but it's not here .


Standing up does not always mean being confrontational. But also I hope they told you to be ready for a possible backlash including working in BFE. We all have to stand at some point, just make sure what you stand for is worth the consequences. 

And for the most part to me, your fight sounds like a bunch of nothing.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

When I was an apprentice, there were 3 women in my class. 1 was very small and expected the easy jobs, 1 was 6', 180lbs had a mouth like a logger and tried too hard to fit in with the boys, she earned little respect. The other was average size, knowledgeable but lacked some of the physical strength. She took some weight training classes at the college, could do her job, was well liked and respected. Another female JW was the daughter of the BA. She could defineltely carry her own and wanted no special treatment, she happens to be an excellent JW and is respected by many. It doesn't matter who you are, just do your job and get along, that will take you a long way in the trade.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Im not union so maybe i should keep my yapper shut but I hear alot of stories like this from you guys/gals. It seems like it can be very clikkey in some companies. But I guess it goes for non union too.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I find more and more reason to avoid the Union...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

The major difference is we don't have one-tenth the amount of buttkisses at our contractors as you do.

On the other side, everybody schemes all day because so-and-so makes a couple dollars more an hour, and so-and-so is getting a promotion because he cleans the cobwebs under the desk.

Not like that here, because everyone is paid the same, end of story. If you are worth more, then you will be a foreman, and get foreman pay no matter what.

I don't miss the days when talent was passed over for a promotion because the promoted was the best at buttkissin.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

My first couple of months in the trade was non union. I can remember some guys just working an extra 2 hrs. a night free.

Us union guys may disagree on things at times but, I prefer my honest days work for an honest days pay.


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## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

Sorry to not repspond for so long...been working 7 tens at the wind farm .

Daddymac... I'm sure that you have heard "my " story before , but have you been in my shoes or the other Montana apprentices shoes ? Not really meaning to come off as a **** per say...but I have a hard time believing that saying nothing will give me the training and safety work ethic that I will need in the future . 

You told me in the first post that I was bragging . You then asked me what my work reports are like . I will try not to brag....but the meeting I had with the apprenticeship commitee would tell you everything you need to know about my work ethic . I am 5'2" and 120 pounds . I rode bulls for 10 years and have an assc. degree in HVAC which I used for 6 years...anywhere from service work , gas piping , soldering , brazing , and fabricating ALL of the duct work by hand and installing it . ALL of my work reports are good , most of my journeymen don't want to see me leave BECAUSE I don't complain about hard work and do a good job . The one committee member even went as far as to say " I was hoping to meet you , you have a great work report record . "

Schooling through the NJATC does nothing but teach you the code book and text book . How can I learn OJT from school ? My husband can only teach me so much at home .My point is...most apprentices DON"T have someone in the trade to teach them at home . If they don't have that......and aren't being trained in the field....how are they learning ?

As for journeymen not wanting to work with me...maybe not at first...then once they do it's not a problem . What you don't understand is our jobs are not big jobs . Most of the time you might have 2-15 JW's on . Alot of them are organized in and don't care about us . Alot of them are shop rockets that just want to get the job done . I do have to say since working on this wind farm , I have talked with many brothers from out of state and ALL agree that what is and has been done is wrong .

If you have a fax machine .....I would be more than happy to send you my work reports . Then you can judge on facts instead of just assuming I'm another big mouthed , whiney apprentice . You can't tell me that no father son team out there NEVER brings any personal crap to work . There are some people who despise their toolies and it causes problems . How is this not the same ? I worked with my husband on the same job , him as my JW , for a year , and there were NO problems . We both put on our hard hat at work , and take it off when we go home . That's what's called being professional , getting the job done , and getting paid .

On a side note....I joined the UNION for a reason.....Hell would have to freeze over first before I would consider quiting . I may not change anything for myself....but maybe I'll be able to help others in the future . Just because we are apprentices does NOT mean that we don't deserve the same training that was given 20 years ago to other apprentices . Some of us REALLY do deserve to be trained . I taught myself how to wire up the trans former deck on these towers . Would have saved the company alot of money to have someone teach me how to do it . Our crew had 2 JW's , 7 apprentices on a 280' tower . The 2 JW's did not climb . They kept me on till the last though , want me to come back in the spring to finish up the second phase .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have said this before I have worked both sides and AND THERE IS LITTLE to no difference A*holes exist everywhere even on this forum (self excluded). No one side has a lock on excellent work or work ethics. The biggest benefit to union is the transferable benefits and wages remain the same as you go from employer to employer. For the employer there are disadvantages to union like same wages for the excellent worker and slacker.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

> Not really meaning to come off as a **** per say...but I have a hard time believing that saying nothing will give me the training and safety work ethic that I will need in the future .


I never said to not say anything but to consider how you say it and who to say it too. Follow the chain of command if you will.


> ALL of my work reports are good , most of my journeymen don't want to see me leave BECAUSE I don't complain about hard work and do a good job . The one committee member even went as far as to say " I was hoping to meet you , you have a great work report record . "


So you do have a JW. Your first post gives the impression you work alone. Why aren't you telling your JW that you don't feel you are getting proper supervision? 


> How can I learn OJT from school ? My husband can only teach me so much at home .


Well you said you have learned everything on your own, so I just asked about school. So now I know you haven't learned everything on your own. I have a nephew in the trade And we talk all the time about what he's doing and I help him out alot. I can't do the work for him if thats what he wants , but I can explain to him how things work etc.


> My point is...most apprentices DON"T have someone in the trade to teach them at home . If they don't have that......and aren't being trained in the field....how are they learning ?


I think most apprentices are satisfied with the program and the OJT. I have asked before what is it that you want? You seem to be smart and capable of doing your job. What else do you want????


> What you don't understand is our jobs are not big jobs . Most of the time you might have 2-15 JW's on . Alot of them are organized in and don't care about us . Alot of them are shop rockets that just want to get the job done .


LOL. That I understand. What you may not understand is thats the nature of the beast. On small Jobs you may be asked to do more. You have to set your limits to keep yourself safe though. On big jobs you may find yourself with a broom or handling material all day. begging to be back to working by your self. Organized guys don't always understand brotherhood. They are in it for themselves as are some of the people who came through the program. With the International over organizing, some don't want to train their competition. You may have to ask for a rotation but , again, go through the channels.



> I worked with my husband on the same job , him as my JW , for a year , and there were NO problems . We both put on our hard hat at work , and take it off when we go home . That's what's called being professional , getting the job done , and getting paid .


After reading your first post I thought the root of the problems was you wanting to work with your husband. I didn't want to come out and say but rather carefully choose my words to have you bring it out. That will work out a little better once you top out.


> Some of us REALLY do deserve to be trained . I taught myself how to wire up the trans former deck on these towers . Would have saved the company alot of money to have someone teach me how to do it .


Do you say "I don't know how to do it" or do you say "I'll figure it out"? And if you can't do it- do it not get done? You are not specific in your explainantion of not being trained. I think it all boils down to unless you are on a job with your husband or other aceptable JW, you will not be happy. I think I have given you plenty of options to help you out. I hope it works out for you.


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