# Romex vs conduit



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Assume a low end 1500 SQ FT home with electric water heater, range, dryer, heat pump, etc, just all electric without any fancy stuff like vac or intercom or a bunch of recessed lighting.

It would seem to me that 2 experienced romex guys could rough this in 2 days (maybe a long day) (cut in ready for devices). (I need confirmation from the resi guys).

How long would it take to rough it in EMT? Wire pulled and ready for devices.

I was just wondering how much longer it really takes guys who do it daily to wire a house in EMT vs the experienced guys wiring in romex.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

2 days, 2 workers... if they were movin along, I would day its doable. As long as it is single story.

~Matt


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Two men, two days, very doable, as long as its single story and not a bunch of stupid cans and changes. Also both guys need to work the same way. 

I have no Idea how long it would take to rough in with EMT - wood frame and EMT seems to me would take a minute. Do not know though.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy (Dec 21, 2009)

*emt*

emt=double min


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I did romex piece work for about a year (yeah, don't ask) so I know what's fast. Me and another guy, like me, could easily get it roughed in in two days. We are talking average low end right? 
That emt would take me forever. But hey, I've never emt'd a house.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

what would the point be in doing a house in EMT? 
is it for
ability to change circuits?
cost?
neatness?
other?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

JoeKP said:


> what would the point be in doing a house in EMT?
> is it for
> ability to change circuits?
> cost?
> ...


Well if you are in Chicagoland its required by law. The OP may be a commercial guy with little "roping" experience.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

JoeKP said:


> what would the point be in doing a house in EMT?
> is it for
> ability to change circuits?
> cost?
> ...



Exactly!

2 guys no extras-no Hi-hats (pot lites as some call them) 1 looong day- I'ld go 2- For 'Justin'.
Assuming both guys know what they are doing.


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

EMT in wood framing would take a lot longer than romex. Your holes through the studs would have to be perfectly aligned, and you would need to make larger holes to allow for the radius of an elbow. If it were a one story house you could stub into the basement. Any way you look at it you would use a lot of 4 squares, couplings and connectors. If you were to triple the labor and material cost you would be close. I could be a little high with that guesstemite. I have done a lot of emt in metal studs and that is not bad if the rock heads line the studs up the same every time. With the wood studs you need 4 square box with flange and a 1/2 inch mudring. That would be about $3.00 per device box opposed to $0.30 for a Peter D. blue Carlon box. I guess it all depends on who is paying the bill.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

leland said:


> Exactly!
> 
> 2 guys no extras-no Hi-hats (pot lites as some call them) 1 looong day- I'ld go 2- For 'Justin'.
> Assuming both guys know what they are doing.


Do not tell me you have worked with Justin also. Dumbest guy on the planet.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

"Pot lights":no:

I've watched too much Holmes on homes because i actually know that. 

Can we just call them "cans"?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

crazymurph said:


> EMT in wood framing would take a lot longer than romex. Your holes through the studs would have to be perfectly aligned, and you would need to make larger holes to allow for the radius of an elbow. If it were a one story house you could stub into the basement. Any way you look at it you would use a lot of 4 squares, couplings and connectors. If you were to triple the labor and material cost you would be close. I could be a little high with that guesstemite. I have done a lot of emt in metal studs and that is not bad if the rock heads line the studs up the same every time. With the wood studs you need 4 square box with flange and a 1/2 inch mudring. That would be about $3.00 per device box opposed to $0.30 for a Peter D. blue Carlon box. I guess it all depends on who is paying the bill.


That's so lame. I try my best to not use a single j-box in new construction under the house or in the attic.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> "Pot lights":no:
> 
> I've watched too much Holmes on homes because i actually know that.
> 
> Can we just call them "cans"?



1st time I ever heard that term-2 yrs ago- LMFAO!!!

'Roping a house'- never heard that 'till I saw it on this forum- Not an east coast phrase. Thats close to- the term 'JUICE'.

As far as 'Justin' (justin case) been doing that for 18 yrs!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

leland said:


> 1st time I ever heard that term-2 yrs ago- LMFAO!!!
> 
> 'Roping a house'- never heard that 'till I saw it on this forum- Not an east coast phrase.
> 
> As far as 'Justin' (justin case) been doing that for 18 yrs!


I actually don't use "roping" that much. Kinda like "dude", it just pops out.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> "Pot lights":no:
> 
> I've watched too much Holmes on homes because i actually know that.
> 
> Can we just call them "cans"?


 
How 'bout "High Hats"?:thumbsup:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How 'bout "High Hats"?:thumbsup:


I've never used that term. I visualize it, i understand it, but it ain't happening.
Does "high hats" refer to 6" cans or just cans in general?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> How 'bout "High Hats"?:thumbsup:



1st and only term I've heard since 1981.

6" cans and all others,yes.
Regional I guess.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I shouldn't watch Holmes on homes. Is it me or do the lectrians on that show piss you off a bit?
Sideways subpanels?
Always a surge protector, and you have to tell me about it?
Pot light retrofits?
Only twelve receptacles on a twenty amp circuit? What? What happens if you put thirteen? The house will burn down?
Dunno maybe the cec is very different compared the nec.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Holmes on homes.

Damn,Another thing I'm missing-learning from this site.
(never heard of or seen it) Guess I gotta stay home more.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

When I stated roping houses in the mid 70's, a 2 man crew would rough in TWO tract houses a day including the service.

No prints, there were only 4 or 5 floor plans so once you did a couple of them, layout was a no brainer. We just ran thru, marked, drilled, boxed, made up, swept up and moved on.

Today it seems to take twice as long as the olden days but without a crapload of cans, a framed 1500 foot single story house with 8' ceilings shouldn't take more than a day for experienced resi guys.

Conduit has GOT to more than double the time. Think about how long it would take to string romex in one bedroom. romex, 15/20 minutes. Conduit would have to take an hour.


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

RE: Holmes on Homes, I've watched probably all of them. Kind of sick to watch work when you get home from it. I think some of what they do is regional and based on Canadian code. The surge protector is probably donated and needs to be shown. Mike Holmes has also said in one episode that he lost all of his electronics in a surge.


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## Raverill (Aug 30, 2008)

JoeKP said:


> what would the point be in doing a house in EMT?
> is it for
> ability to change circuits?
> cost?
> ...


The big "other" with emt, or any metal raceway, is safety. 
>Conductors are more protected from nails and screws.
>The possibility of an electrical fire caused by the house wiring is damn near eliminated. (You can still run an ext. chord under a carpet and torch the place.)
>If there is a lightning event, lightning current will tend to be conducted through the pipe, fittings, and metal boxes and much less, if any, through the circuit wiring.
>Ground fault; Even though we install an equipment grounding conductor in emt nowadays, as a secondary low resistance path to ground, emt beats mc and ac (BX) coiled sheathing. Romex has no secondary ground path.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

crazymurph said:


> That would be about $3.00 per device box opposed to $0.30 for a Peter D. blue Carlon box.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Raverill said:


> The big "other" with emt, or any metal raceway, is safety.
> >Conductors are more protected from nails and screws.
> >The possibility of an electrical fire caused by the house wiring is damn near eliminated. (You can still run an ext. chord under a carpet and torch the place.)


I think you will find most electric fires are due to connections and splices not an errant NM staple.



> >If there is a lightning event, lightning current will tend to be conducted through the pipe, fittings, and metal boxes and much less, if any, through the circuit wiring.


And this does what set fire to the studs in lieu of melting the NM, I think your are grasping here unless you have some statical evidence. In addition in a lighting strike the lighting takes ANY PATH it wishes through the energized, grounded or grounding conductor.



> >Ground fault; Even though we install an equipment grounding conductor in emt nowadays, as a secondary low resistance path to ground, emt beats mc and ac (BX) coiled sheathing. Romex has no secondary ground path.


Do you REALLY think house guys are installing an EGC in the EMT? Heck the cost is already high without adding extra copper. Adding a "SECONDARY" EGC is not mandatory and unless you are paying the bill or it is spec'd I would not spend my money on it.

And ROMEX has a full size EGC, which is more than adequate per the NEC.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Only twelve receptacles on a twenty amp circuit? What? What happens if you put thirteen? The house will burn down?
> Dunno maybe the cec is very different compared the nec.


CEC states......8-304 (1) There shall not be more than 12 outlets on any two wire branch circuit, except as permitted by other rules of this Code.

so it does not matter if it is a 15 or 50 amp circuit, the most we can have is 12.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

We regularly encounter wood framing for schools here in California and EMT is typically specified.

A wood framed building at 1500 sq ft would easily more than double the labor rate of romex.


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## Raverill (Aug 30, 2008)

"I think you will find most electric fires are due to connections and splices not an errant NM staple."
"
Areed. Metal raceway will contain the fire.

"Lighting takes ANY PATH it wishes through the energized, grounded or grounding conductor."
Lightning doesn't "wish" anything. It takes the most direct course of least resistance 
between earth and cloud. A continuous, mechanically tight, grounded, metal raceway provides just that for all but the biggest lightning strike.

I am a commercial/industrial/institutional journeyman w/ 30+ yrs in the trade. Every job I have worked on in the past decade has specced a seperate egc, sized per NEC Art. 250, in all metal raceways. It has become a standard engineering spec. whether the Code requires it or not. Will a residential wireman use an egc in emt? Sure! The only time they use emt, in my neighborhood anyway, is a straight piece, no bends or box offsets, supported, maybe, by a mineralac strap, to sleave a length of romex down a wall.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Having never roped a house, I could not directly compare how long it would take vs. pipe. But I did work resi for a year and three guys could pipe, pull and ring a house (about 2500 sq. feet) in three days. What really slowed things down were the really tall entries. No doubt in my mind that romex would be faster, it simply isn't an option here. 

I was a first year apprentice throwing in about 500 ft. of EMT per day and I was pretty slow. Good guys were going twice that speed. 800 feet a day in resi is considered minimum productivity.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Raverill said:


> "I think you will find most electric fires are due to connections and splices not an errant NM staple."
> "
> Areed. Metal raceway will contain the fire.


You missed the point! read my post again



> "Lighting takes ANY PATH it wishes through the energized, grounded or grounding conductor."
> Lightning doesn't "wish" anything. It takes the most direct course of least resistance
> between earth and cloud. A continuous, mechanically tight, grounded, metal raceway provides just that for all but the biggest lightning strike.


Actually that is not true do some reading, lighting takes many paths and will often take a course that you would least expect. I have completed numerous lighting investigations and am often surprised of the journey lightning will take through a house or commercial facility



> I am a commercial/industrial/institutional journeyman w/ 30+ yrs in the trade. Every job I have worked on in the past decade has specced a seperate egc, sized per NEC Art. 250, in all metal raceways. It has become a standard engineering spec. whether the Code requires it or not. Will a residential wireman use an egc in emt? Sure! The only time they use emt, in my neighborhood anyway, is a straight piece, no bends or box offsets, supported, maybe, by a mineralac strap, to sleave a length of romex down a wall.



And if you read my post I said SPEC'd is one thing, if you install EGCs when they are not spec'd you are wasting your bosses money and in a competitive market like residential I doubt anyone is wasting copper.
It may be a standard engineering spec where you are from but it is not nationally accepted practice unless specified.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> When I stated roping houses in the mid 70's, a 2 man crew would rough in TWO tract houses a day including the service.


That's pretty fast. The best I ever did was a duplex in 8.5 hours (just me). Total of 4 bedrooms, 2 kitches, 2 bathrooms, baseboard heat, W/D, water heater, and just stub the home runs outside for an outdoor panel to be installed after the brick. No phone or cable.


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

goose134 said:


> Having never roped a house, I could not directly compare how long it would take vs. pipe. But I did work resi for a year and three guys could pipe, pull and ring a house (about 2500 sq. feet) in three days. What really slowed things down were the really tall entries. No doubt in my mind that romex would be faster, it simply isn't an option here.
> 
> I was a first year apprentice throwing in about 500 ft. of EMT per day and I was pretty slow. Good guys were going twice that speed. 800 feet a day in resi is considered minimum productivity.


How much BX do you guys use in a wood framed house? I have wired many houses in romex, and many commercial buildings in EMT, but I have never saw a house in EMT.

I have always wondered about Chicago houses, Id like to see one roughed in some day.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> How much BX do you guys use in a wood framed house?


None. The only time we can is if drywall is up and you have to fish. Other than that you have a 6ft maximum length.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

There are some good pics of Chicago EMT-wired homes out there, but I'll be darned if I can remember where they are. Google didn't turn up much. 

One thing you guys use a lot of when wiring a dwelling unit with EMT is couplings.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> ...........One thing you guys use a lot of when wiring a dwelling unit with EMT is couplings.


Compared to what Peter would use........ duct tape. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Compared to what Peter would use........ duct tape. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


>


What?? You wouldn't even use that?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What?? You wouldn't even use that?



I tried joining some EMT with Scotchkote the other day - FAIL!


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

goose134 said:


> None. The only time we can is if drywall is up and you have to fish. Other than that you have a 6ft maximum length.


How do you wire a 2 story house with several can lights in a 1st level room and still have access to all your junction boxes after the drywall is hung?


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> I have always wondered about Chicago houses, Id like to see one roughed in some day.


All the houses I piped I never once snapped a picture. I keep saying when I get time, I'm going to go on some jobsite and snap some pics. It looks a lot like silver frozen romex.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> How do you wire a 2 story house with several can lights in a 1st level room and still have access to all your junction boxes after the drywall is hung?


Same way you do. Use switches as J-box, and all cans are designed to be accessible. (this point may debatable, but you can get to them.) I've had to drop a few cans after drywall and it wasn't awful (they were 6 inch). The worst is when guys use the space NEAR a can in drywall to place a 1900 box.


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

do you hard pipe can lights, do you use much 1/2" or all 3/4? Do you have a junction near the can access hole, and run flex or bx to the can light junction box?

Its funny to me that you call it a 1900 box, here in Kentucky we call them 4X4 boxes.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hard pipe to the cans. The only whips will generally be to appliances (dishwashers, disposals and the like)
Not much 3/4" in resi, except at my house.


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the info I find it very interesting. Living life as a Chicago Electrician must be like trying to be a fire fighter in Hell. 
:thumbup:

I bet you guys are the best EMT benders in the world.

What does it cost to get a house wired up there? $10-$15 a square foot not counting fixtures or service?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

EMT is a great wiring method for basements with a lot of crap in them. You don't have to drill holes in the beams or clean up all the wood clippings afterwards. Good planning helps too!


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## rivermanchris (Dec 27, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> EMT is a great wiring method for basements with a lot of crap in them. You don't have to drill holes in the beams or clean up all the wood clippings afterwards. Good planning helps too!


Do you use EMT for Resi in NJ?


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

I have worked on a lot of apartments (nothing more than 6-unit buildings) in the Palo Alto in CA and most of them were wired with emt. Mostly from the 50's and 60's. Also in South San Francisco, a lot of houses from the 60's-70's were wired with flex. Made it real easy to wire in switched outlets, etc.
I have been contemplating doing it in my own house...


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## Raverill (Aug 30, 2008)

"Actually that is not true do some reading, lighting takes many paths and will often take a course that you would least expect. I have completed numerous lighting investigations and am often surprised of the journey lightning will take through a house or commercial facility."
Indeed, lightning takes some strange paths. But the laws of physics still apply. Provide a low resisitance, high current capacity path to ground, and lightning will take it. Otherwise lightning-rod systems would be useless. (In my state of Conn. lightning system installation is a seperate trade with its own license.) Lightning does not like sharp bends, which explains the weird paths it sometimes takes. The radius bends and the high current capacity of galvanized steel emt, with an egc bonding all parts, will take all but the largst lightning strikes. If lightning current goes through current conductors and explodes them, I've seen that, the flash is contained within the raceway, keeping the structure safer. Not safe; safer. That's all I said.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

220/221 said:


> When I stated roping houses in the mid 70's, a 2 man crew would rough in TWO tract houses a day including the service.
> 
> No prints, there were only 4 or 5 floor plans so once you did a couple of them, layout was a no brainer. We just ran thru, marked, drilled, boxed, made up, swept up and moved on.
> 
> ...


I did low-income housing for awhile all over california and it was basically the same deal. Typical 150 apartment complex and four floor plans; two bedroom mirrored, three bed mirrored. Once you've done them a couple times you don't need the prints no more. The helpers we had would box out and pull the sub panel feeders and the electricians would get assigned apartments two at a time. With party walls running through the two you could wire them at the same time. If they were third floor apts I could easily get four done in a ten hour day. Trimming out, well that was another story. Piece work, paid really well but the traveling kinda sucked.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's pretty fast. The best I ever did was a duplex in 8.5 hours (just me). Total of 4 bedrooms, 2 kitches, 2 bathrooms, baseboard heat, W/D, water heater, and just stub the home runs outside for an outdoor panel to be installed after the brick. No phone or cable.



What year, township and was it inspected.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Raverill said:


> "Actually that is not true do some reading, lighting takes many paths and will often take a course that you would least expect. I have completed numerous lighting investigations and am often surprised of the journey lightning will take through a house or commercial facility."
> Indeed, lightning takes some strange paths. But the laws of physics still apply. Provide a low resisitance, high current capacity path to ground, and lightning will take it. Otherwise lightning-rod systems would be useless. (In my state of Conn. lightning system installation is a seperate trade with its own license.) Lightning does not like sharp bends, which explains the weird paths it sometimes takes. The radius bends and the high current capacity of galvanized steel emt, with an egc bonding all parts, will take all but the largst lightning strikes. If lightning current goes through current conductors and explodes them, I've seen that, the flash is contained within the raceway, keeping the structure safer. Not safe; safer. That's all I said.



An easy way to post someones quote is to click on on the bottom right of the post blue block QUOTE. Or

Use brackets [ insert the word QUOTE] at the beginning of the post at the end of the post use brackets and slash and the word quote [/ word QUOTE]


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Fredman said:


> What year, township and was it inspected.


circa 1975, Norfolk VA, yes (and passed on 1st trip). We did a lot of these, me and my boss (who was then my age now) used to do these in a casual 1.5 days (he was older and didn't care to race around like a crazy man, as I feel now). He was off on a hunting trip and I just wanted to see if I could do it in a day, I humped!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rivermanchris said:


> do you hard pipe can lights, do you use much 1/2" or all 3/4? Do you have a junction near the can access hole, and run flex or bx to the can light junction box?
> 
> Its funny to me that you call it a 1900 box, here in Kentucky we call them 4X4 boxes.


In Virginia they are 1900 boxes and a 3.5 round is an 8-B.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

goose134 said:


> I was a first year apprentice throwing in about 500 ft. of EMT per day and I was pretty slow. Good guys were going twice that speed. 800 feet a day in resi is considered minimum productivity.


 
The question was raised regarding EGC's (equipment grounding conductors), do they normally pull an EGC to each opening in a house?


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> The question was raised regarding EGC's (equipment grounding conductors), do they normally pull an EGC to each opening in a house?


 
No not in a emt house around here. Especially in high volume work (BTW where did that all go?).


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## thekoolcody (Aug 30, 2008)

Romex all the way.. conduit should not be used in residential at all.. That's just my opinion..


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

I bet 2 good guys could get it done in 2.5-3 days. I say that cause I did it all the time. We would go in box, drill ,pipe almost all on one day. Both of us would get in over 1200 feet of pipe though. So the labor isnt much more but I believe the cost is way up there. Im not an estimator and have done little romex work so I cant speculate on prices for whole house. 

also the comment about placing multiple j-boxes is false for residential, I have NEVER placed a junction box in a new house that wasn't used for a device. That is the way commercial guys do it.

If you need to fit the radius of the pipe close to the stud you just drill a couple holes below where the pipe needs to run and the radius slides right in. 

Pulling the wire and slicing is done VERY quickly, and using multiple colors for travellers and switch legs makes it idiot proof. 

I personally love doing pipe but there have been occasions where I wished I could have used romex.


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## adk (Jan 6, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> That's so lame. I try my best to not use a single j-box in new construction under the house or in the attic.


Welcome to NY.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Peter D said:


>


Last I remember A bracket 1900 box (4x4x1.5) was $0.75 and a mud ring is $0.50. But it's been almost 2 years sence I seen a bill. Never purchased a plastic box. They don't seem very cheap at the box stores.

I always wanted to do those small minimum houses just so I could say I could pipe a house in XX hours.

While there is a lot of unknowns such as garage, unfinished basement, 1 or 2 bathroom, etc. Depending on the area they may neep sump pumps, well power, radon requirements, CO detectors, the list gos on. Sometimes the small details take time like 4 waying all over the place. Well I wouldn't figure if it has standard cielings and no stairs that the framing would be much of an issue. But there always seems a way for them to build a wall to make it way dificult such as a steel beam or microlam blocking you. That said I would say 2 guys experianced in piping wood framing 1 day on the fast side and 2 days on the slow side. That is not inclusing building the service.


Several thing are a must have. An assortment of sharp drill bits 1 1/8 & 1 1/4 short, 6" long and extensions. A minimum is a 90 drill. A super hole hog for the clear shots will drill a room no time.

As said almost all conduit is 1/2". An exception may be A/C, oven, hot tub, some home runs, or stubs for communcations. I would try to use 3/4 if I had a lot of travelers to pull but I doubt that the case with such a small house. Most companies use 1 1/2" boxes. If your lucky some will use 2 1/8 for home runs, GFI's, & switches that may get dimmers.

It really depends what your skilled at. Some guys would thell me they would rope a 2-3,000 sf home in a long day on flat rate (everything boxed before). While I knew another person that only did EMT jobs. He thought using NM in a house would be easy and take no time. He said it took him way longer, he had all sorts of problems, and he would never do that again.

Yes in Chicagoland the resi cans were piped about 98% of the time. An exception may be a can that would be about imposable to pipe because of framing without damaging the structure. Or very impractable. Such as cans in a tight soffit 28' high and your working with an extension ladder.

On custom homes we would average 1 sf of emt and I think (been a while) 3' of wire for every sf of finished space. But there was a lot of tall walls, high cielings, 4 ways, always a reason why you could not go straight to the next opening, and the communications was stubed.

A simple 1500' sf house I would guess would take 800-1000' of conduit. For piping wood framing I would figure 300' on the low side to 500' on the high side per person day.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

brian john said:


> The question was raised regarding EGC's (equipment grounding conductors), do they normally pull an EGC to each opening in a house?


Never. 
Never.
Never.

No ground pig tails except for GFI's. 
All rec are self grounding.

Larger circuits may have an EG like a oven, A/C, or a feeder. Also pools, & hot tubs always had EG.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

rivermanchris said:


> Thanks for all the info I find it very interesting. Living life as a Chicago Electrician must be like trying to be a fire fighter in Hell.
> :thumbup:
> 
> I bet you guys are the best EMT benders in the world.
> ...


While I didn't price per sf I would check it that way some times and it's more $4-5 /sf.


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## GDK 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

active1 said:


> Yes in Chicagoland the resi cans were piped about 98% of the time. An exception may be a can that would be about imposable to pipe because of framing without damaging the structure. Or very impractable. Such as cans in a tight soffit 28' high and your working with an extension ladder.


So you're saying that the EMT actually goes into the hihat itself? Not to a junction box, and then a small whip to the hihat? How about if you have two hihats in one bay, a few feet apart. You go from hihat to hihat with emt??


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

GDK 13 said:


> So you're saying that the EMT actually goes into the hihat itself? Not to a junction box, and then a small whip to the hihat? How about if you have two hihats in one bay, a few feet apart. You go from hihat to hihat with emt??


Yes, We pipe into the junction box already on the can and then pipe from can to can.


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## GDK 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

running dummy said:


> Yes, We pipe into the junction box already on the can and then pipe from can to can.


wow-that just seems to me like a lot more work, and time to rough a job out. I guess once you are used to it, it goes by quicker.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

GDK 13 said:


> So you're saying that the EMT actually goes into the hihat itself? Not to a junction box, and then a small whip to the hihat? How about if you have two hihats in one bay, a few feet apart. You go from hihat to hihat with emt??


Pipe can to can. No J-boxes except what comes with the can.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

GDK 13 said:


> wow-that just seems to me like a lot more work, and time to rough a job out. I guess once you are used to it, it goes by quicker.


But the cool thing is work = $ for the employee. 
Right now I don't have either.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

All that pipe work must take a long time but doing the make up with stranded thhn would be easier than nm.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> All that pipe work must take a long time but doing the make up with stranded thhn would be easier than nm.


Really depends on the company. Many are all solid because of the price diference. Other times it was 14 solid and 12 and larger stranded.

In Chicagoland resi 14 gauge is used anywhere it's permitted. 12's were only used where required like bathrooms and kitchens. But on the positive side most of the time adding a circuit was not a big deal. Where a lot of the NM homes I see are all 12's. Maybe because if the circuit capicity is not large enough with Romex you may be SOL.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> All that pipe work must take a long time but doing the make up with stranded thhn would be easier than nm.


maybe for the can lights, but I prefer solid when doing outlets/switches, just a lot easier to bend a solid wire around a screw, than stranded, unless you put crimps on them, which seems like its twice as much work to me


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

I have mostly dealt with solid wire in resi but you see a good mix. Piping becomes a breeze like you said and can actually be kind of fun when you get good at it


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

JoeKP said:


> maybe for the can lights, but I prefer solid when doing outlets/switches, just a lot easier to bend a solid wire around a screw, than stranded, unless you put crimps on them, which seems like its twice as much work to me


Yeah it's easier to install devices with solid for sure.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

active1 said:


> Really depends on the company. Many are all solid because of the price diference. Other times it was 14 solid and 12 and larger stranded.
> 
> In Chicagoland resi 14 gauge is used anywhere it's permitted. 12's were only used where required like bathrooms and kitchens. But on the positive side most of the time adding a circuit was not a big deal. Where a lot of the NM homes I see are all 12's. Maybe because if the circuit capicity is not large enough with Romex you may be SOL.


Good point. You always have access to the raceway. That's gotta make you feel pretty comfortable in a high end residence.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Yeah it's easier to install devices with solid for sure.


 
Buy spec grade and don't worry about bending wire around a terminal!

:thumbsup:

I'm lucky all the projects I work on require spec grade.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

JayH said:


> Buy spec grade and don't worry about bending wire around a terminal!
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm lucky all the projects I work on require spec grade.


:laughing:
yeah, that's be nice. 

I use the cheap Levitons most of time, and no, before anyone asks, I do not backstab... ever. 
:thumbup:


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## captin jimmy (Jan 6, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Assume a low end 1500 SQ FT home with electric water heater, range, dryer, heat pump, etc, just all electric without any fancy stuff like vac or intercom or a bunch of recessed lighting.
> 
> It would seem to me that 2 experienced romex guys could rough this in 2 days (maybe a long day) (cut in ready for devices). (I need confirmation from the resi guys).
> 
> ...


 worked for an old man years ago,we roughed apts. in EMT and it took well over tice as long. He did say anyone who drills holes for the conduit doesnt know what there are doing, you notch the studs and use nail plates


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

captin jimmy said:


> worked for an old man years ago,we roughed apts. in EMT and it took well over tice as long. He did say anyone who drills holes for the conduit doesnt know what there are doing, you notch the studs and use nail plates


Huh? You'd have to hire a carpenter to do that.
:whistling2:


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

captin jimmy said:


> worked for an old man years ago,we roughed apts. in EMT and it took well over tice as long. He did say anyone who drills holes for the conduit doesnt know what there are doing, you notch the studs and use nail plates


That's very old school. It was done at one time. I would guess most electricians quit notching studs in the 50's at least in Chicagoland. At the time they probibly only used had hand tools on a house. You could noch with a hand saw and bust out way faster than using one of them old hand crank drills with an auger bit. That was also when a framing nail bent over was a nail strap for the EMT. Most every house had a hardwood floor. I think it was a HUD requirement at one time. The conduits were also run between the sub floor and the hardwood floor. The bottom plates also noched for the 90's out of the floor. 

Today the GC might throw you off the job if you noched every stud & joist. It's debateable how much and where can be noched. Bottom line is you don't want to have that debate with a carpenter, inspector, GC, customer, or your boss. Someone will say it's wrong. Besides with the drills and bits today many times I believe you could drill faster than noching and chipping.

They do make a product to repair a noched stud, weakened from the hole too big, or too close to the edge. It's not a standard nail plate. Notching tends to cause a failed inspection, repair, then tring to prove the repair is adequate.

If I was working on something that had the studs noched in the past I would try to avoid using those holes so it didn't look like I did it. Don't get me wrong there are a few times were it has to be done and is acceptable such as a furring strip.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Yeah it's easier to install devices with solid for sure.


try installing a GFI with #12 wire for Line and Load and see how easy it is... regular outlets and switches are nice in solid but gfi's can be a pain in the ass to make them look nice and flush when you have solid 12 pushing against it

my .02


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

running dummy said:


> try installing a GFI with #12 wire for Line and Load and see how easy it is... regular outlets and switches are nice in solid but gfi's can be a pain in the ass to make them look nice and flush when you have solid 12 pushing against it
> 
> my .02


do it enough it gets quite easy and IMO not that hard to put a GFI in w/#12, but #10...:laughing::laughing::jester:


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

yea #10's would be a nightmare. Ive had a couple bad experiances with packed boxes and gfi's so I am partial to trimming stranded  I love pulling with solid wire though...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've noticed in the few pictures of Chicago EMT wiring that I've seen that they use 1 1/2" deep boxes instead of 2 1/8". I imagine this has to do with saving money, but seems to me it would be a lot better to use deep boxes.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I've noticed in the few pictures of Chicago EMT wiring that I've seen that they use 1 1/2" deep boxes instead of 2 1/8". I imagine this has to do with saving money, but seems to me it would be a lot better to use deep boxes.


 
yes this is true in my experiance. I never used deep boxes in residential and if we needed more room we would install 1 1/2 extension rings. This was mostly where our homeruns would come in and sometimes where GFI's will be installed. If you plan your pipes right this method never seems to be a problem


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## Elec Tek (Jan 28, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I've noticed in the few pictures of Chicago EMT wiring that I've seen that they use 1 1/2" deep boxes instead of 2 1/8". I imagine this has to do with saving money, but seems to me it would be a lot better to use deep boxes.


 
The guys that use 1.5 boxes know how to calculate wire fill.


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## Xknob&Tube (Jul 30, 2008)

*Easier in "olden days"*

Over the years, changes in the code have increased the time it takes to rough an average house. A few would include: interconnected smokes & kitchens. Also, open floor plans require more 4 ways.
How about MC cable instead of conduit in Chicago?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

running dummy said:


> yes this is true in my experiance. I never used deep boxes in residential and if we needed more room we would install 1 1/2 extension rings. This was mostly where our homeruns would come in and sometimes where GFI's will be installed. If you plan your pipes right this method never seems to be a problem


I rarely, if ever, use anything but a 1-1/2" deep 4x4 box for a device in pipe work. The rock is usually 5/8" so you use a 3/4" mud ring. That gives you 2-1/4", more or less, from the face to the back of the box. That's plenty of depth for even a GFCI receptacle.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Mostly 4x4x1.5" boxes. Like I said before it really depends on the company and who is doing the work. Some places will never get you a deep box. Myself I like to use them for dimmers, GFI's, HR (if not bigger). I would do the box fill. Also I figure if the box costs a bit more but makes things go together faster it may be a wash. While I would agree a single GFI does not need a deep box. Many times like in a kitchen there is a lot more going thru the box like line, load, other circuits, many 12's. 

I agree some electricians don't know how to do box fill weather it's MC or EMT. Others can't even think ahead enough to guess the size. It's agervating for me. I believe some companies will only get deep 4 square boxes because of this. Some jobs if you supplied many different sizes of boxes they will have the deeps at the dead end rec and 1.5" for HR, and 4 11/16 somewhere in between. 

Something elce with EMT is you don't always have to splice all the conductors, some can be pulled tight thru. Add that to no EG and you lower your box fill.

Someone brought up the idea that some devices like GFI's or dimmers should have a different calculation for box fill. I agree with that.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

What if you're running multiple plugmolds in a kitchen from one gfi location taking the load from there for protection? I usually use a deep four square for that or even a 4-11/16 depending on how many I need to feed. 
:thumbsup::scooter:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

active1 said:


> I believe some companies will only get deep 4 square boxes because of this.


I have worked for several companies with that policy. You almost never have a problem with box fill and you almost never have to calculate it. It makes inventory and ordering a lot easier too. The biggest "problem" that you have is there's plenty of room in the box.


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## GDK 13 (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd LOVE to see some pics of a home roughed out in EMT. Anyone have some to post up??


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## Raverill (Aug 30, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I have worked for several companies with that policy. You almost never have a problem with box fill and you almost never have to calculate it. It makes inventory and ordering a lot easier too. The biggest "problem" that you have is there's plenty of room in the box.


Agreed! The difference in price between a 1 1/2" and and a 2 1/8" box, especially at the prices paid for wholesale case orders, is almost nothing. The same goes for conduit. The nickel or dime difference in price is more than made up in labor savings in pulling, make-up, and trim. Plus you also leave the customer with some room for future modifications/additions. As far as I'm concerned, anything close to maximum legal wire-fill in pipe or boxes is too full; up-size.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Elec Tek said:


> The guys that use 1.5 boxes know how to calculate wire fill.


Ah I guess all the times I see overfilled 1.5 boxes are just imagined.:laughing:


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