# Bathroom w/ Door Separating Sinks From Toilet



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Water and electricity don't mix?
That would be reason enough for me. 
First time razor falls into the sink would justify it.
I ran the lighting on a GFI too.


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hey, I'm with you, no question common sense tells you this needs GFCI protection, the question is, is it NEC required or not. 
The Handbook says yes. Is there a source?


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

josh5879 said:


> Hey, I'm with you, no question common sense tells you this needs GFCI protection, the question is, is it NEC required or not.
> The Handbook says yes. Is there a source?



Are you doubting whether or not the image in the picture is an "area"?


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

That's right. If a door doesn't close an area what does. 
Maybe the outlets right outside every bathroom are considered in the bathroom? Of course not, theres a door it's a separate room.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bath area*

I agree with all of the responses to this question,so far. The bath room is a generic term for Bathroom, Washroom, Dump-room, or what have you. It only makes sense that if you have a sink there and a receptacle, it should have GFCI protection.
Another problem I have seen, a lot, is not paying attention to the correct polarity when installing the light fixtures.


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> The bath room is a generic term for Bathroom, Washroom, Dump-room, or what have you.


Sorry bathroom is not a generic term, it is defined by NEC article 100 as "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower"
not what have you.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

josh5879 said:


> That's right. If a door doesn't close an area what does.
> Maybe the outlets right outside every bathroom are considered in the bathroom? Of course not, theres a door it's a separate room.



Ok...so what word/s would you use to describe these "rooms"?

Extra points in you use NEC terminology :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd say most likely it's going to be considered a bathroom. Door or no door.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bath room*

Ok, I know you are correct. But the intention of the code is that IF, you have a receptacle in that area close to a sink or basin it is cheaper to GFCI protect it than to buy and frame a door to get out of the requirement.

P.S. I hope you have a sense of humor...And the original question, in fact, was a good one.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Ok, I know you are correct. But the intention of the code is that IF, you have a receptacle in that area close to a sink or basin it is cheaper to GFCI protect it than to buy and frame a door to get out of the requirement............


 
The Code could care less which is cheaper.


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

maybe you don't know what a "basin" is.

all the other stuff comes AFTER the presence of the basin; so yes GFI.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> maybe you don't know what a "basin" is.
> 
> all the other stuff comes AFTER the presence of the basin; so yes GFI.



So if we put a recept. where the tub/toilet is [in OP's 1st post] ....then no GFCI protection required ?


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Celtic said:


> So if we put a recept. where the tub/toilet is [in OP's 1st post] ....then no GFCI protection required ?



Not saying I'd want to be the one to fight it with the ahj...
but as per the code language...if there is no basin.... yeah no gfi either.

re the ahj :
much simpler to just feed that recept downstream of the gfi at the lav


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> Not saying I'd want to be the one to fight it with the ahj...
> but as per the code language...if there is no basin.... yeah no gfi either.
> 
> re the ahj :
> much simpler to just feed that recept downstream of the gfi at the lav




Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.


That sounds like a very nice distinction, but is that definition backed up by anything?


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.


as in the last thread on the areas where the SA 20A circuits apply.
you could also say that the toilet and tub are also basins.

the rule affecting comm'l bathrooms may come into play too. 
You don't have to install a recep., but if you do it better be GFI protected.


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

BryanMD said:


> you could also say that the toilet and tub are also basins.


The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

josh5879 said:


> The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.



your grasping at straws dude.

everyone likes to play devils advocate in these as a mental exercise and some are genuinely confused... but don't confuse that with suggesting extreme interpretations are the route to "correctness".

The NEC is about the lowest common denominator. It has to be.

On that basis then... "area" includes the space in proximity to X which has installed fixtures commonly and ordinarily associated to X; regardless of how fancy the "architect" may be with their design.

KISS. Live by it. You'll sleep better.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*What is a basin?*

BryanMD is correct. The argument is all about what a basin is..."a bowl-shaped vessel usually used for holding liguids, or food."
There are vessels in both rooms...If there is a receptacle in either room, it must be GFCI protected.
RIVETER


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

Can you answer this?


josh5879 said:


> The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

josh5879 said:


> Can you answer this?
> If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.


and it could have limited the description to sink.
but it didn't... did it?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If you were to step into that room with the divider door at my house in the early morning, you would instanly recognise that it is indeed a bathroom, complete with a toilet somewhere in the vicinity. Panasonic fan no less. You could if you were wise and fearless, decipher it as such even if you were 15 feet away from the outer door. Just sayin.......:whistling2:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Basin*

If you are correctly quoting the code and I think you are, it is saying "with a basin", and the words TOILET ,TUB, OR SHOWER ARE USED TO DESCRIBE THE BASINS usually found in the rooms that we call bathrooms.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

josh5879 said:


> That sounds like a very nice distinction, but is that definition backed up by anything?



Just by my gigantic cranium :laughing:






Seriously though, when common sense fails, you must seek some sense from someone that is supposedly full of it...enter the AHJ :laughing:





Seriously, seriously now ....what word/s would you describe the "area" as ~ bonus points for using NEC terminology :thumbsup:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Let's try this....

A commercial/public bathroom...
Recepts. ARE installed ~ truckers need their plug in shavers for back hair and what not :blink:
Rows of stalls
Rows of sinks

Does the mere presence of the stall AND door mean the "area" is no longer a "bathroom" as defined by 100?

BTW, this is the ladies bathroom
:laughing:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bathroom*

Valid point, Celtic.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If that argument was made to me I'd then cite 210.8(A)(7) and I'd label it a utility sink as you utilize it to wash your hands. GFI required no matter what the space is if there is a sink and a receptacle within 6'.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Valid point, Celtic.


The part about the woman truck drivers shaving their backs, right?
:laughing:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Valid point*

You are quick, Celtic; I went in there once, then left quickly. I'm not staying anywhere for long that doesn't have GROUND FAULT PROTECTION.

RIVETER


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> If that argument was made to me I'd then cite 210.8(A)(7) and I'd label it a utility sink as you utilize it to wash your hands. GFI required no matter what the space is if there is a sink and a receptacle within 6'.


You would FAIL.

A utility sink is typical something like this:










Sure you can wash your hands in there ~ but is that the style of sink one normally sees in an area with a toilet?


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Good point celtic- Now add a partition with a toilet in it.
That sink just turned into a 'basin'. It would need GFI with in 6' reagardless of the 'area'.

I think the key word in all of this is 'AREA'.Op's diagram clearly is an 'AREA'. ask the AHJ.

thats a bathroom all day & nite long.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

leland said:


> I think the key word in all of this is 'AREA'.


:thumbsup:

Kind of hard to be exact with vagueness.


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

This will change in 2011 anyway


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Seems the intent of the code is to have a GFI withing 6' of any type of water basin that you might be washing your hands, tools or whatever in. Is fun to play NEC lawyer though!


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

GFIs are so cheap these days , the rule should be if you can see any source of water install GFIs


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> ... if you can see any source of water install GFIs




My town is surrounded on three sides by water....I can see water from just about everywhere.


----------



## charlie Bob (Jul 26, 2009)

Note that the definition says an "AREA" znd not a "room".
That's why it requires GFCI protection. in that case your toilet, tub and lavatory are in the same area.


----------



## Zinsco (Oct 14, 2009)

While you're out buying that GFI receptacle, you'll need an exhaust fan too, unless there's a window by that toilet.


----------

