# Insulated PPE and arc flash PPE



## 3phase

The company I work for is in the process of requiring PPE. We currently have to wear the gloves anytime we are in a panel with over 120VAC. They are in process of doing the arc calcs and getting ready to get the necessary PPE for that. But they move slow. I find the gloves cumbersome at times but I wear them.


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## Mark Henderson

That is some really nice metal on that there buckle.
Humm. What rating is on that buckle?:no: LOL

Mark


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## K&R

We have the rubber insulated gloves but have not had a need for the shoulders. We also have not had the need for Mr. Tedesco's set up. I have been looking into the ARC flash suits a bit. I hope they all dont look like footie PJ's with oven mits though.:laughing:


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## MDShunk

Mark Henderson said:


> That is some really nice metal on that there buckle.
> Humm. What rating is on that buckle?:no: LOL
> 
> Mark


Eh, I was just showing off some of the gear. Not doing any work. I had pens in my pocket, too.


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## sckeeth

Does anybody have any recommedations on gloves and eye protection, I am currently looking for some gear.


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## Joe Tedesco

www.osha.gov


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## MDShunk

In my photo above, the black rubber gloves are by White Rubber, the leather glove protectors are by Kunz, the sleeves are by Salisbury, and the overshoes are by Servus. I forget who's shield that is. I'm pretty sure it's clipped into a regular MSA hard hat. The above manufacturer's are some of the main one's for such gear. Here's a tip... sometimes the local POCO will test your gloves and sleeves for you for free if you're an electrician. Saves you 20 bucks a year in testing. 

The stuff I'm wearing in the pic is just di-electric, and doesn't help in an arc flash. Well, the face shield will. Otherwise, you'd just have melted rubber all over yourself. The stuff Joe's wearing on the right that looks like quilted coveralls is genunie high-dollar arc-flash gear.


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## sckeeth

I would fall under the first two categories and rarely in the second. So what recommendations do you have for me of gear to get. My wife has been on my case to get at least gloves to work on panels, including a tattoo for my ring finger. I am willing to do so I just haven't found any that are not to bulky.


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## MDShunk

sckeeth said:


> I am willing to do so I just haven't found any that are not to bulky.


And you won't. The best thing you can do is to order your gloves 1/2 a size too small for a snug fit.


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## sckeeth

do you wear gloves when you are working on a resi panel by yourself?


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## MDShunk

sckeeth said:


> do you wear gloves when you are working on a resi panel by yourself?


Nope, but I'm a rebel like that. If it's a screwed up panel such that I can see the possibility of getting hurt because of a pre-existing mess, I don't hesitate to pull the meter. The frieldly neighborhood linemen keep me stocked up on new seal tags.


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## sckeeth

so what would you recommend?


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## MDShunk

sckeeth said:


> so what would you recommend?


If you're asking me, I'll have to defer the question. I'm not educated enough on this topic to be able to give a recommendation.


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## John

sckeeth said:


> I would fall under the first two categories and rarely in the second. So what recommendations do you have for me of gear to get. My wife has been on my case to get at least gloves to work on panels, including a tattoo for my ring finger. I am willing to do so I just haven't found any that are not to bulky.


Since you already know what category you fall under try this link. These are packaged as kits and are easy to store on the truck. The equipment can be ordered online or you might have a local branch near you.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...obeCompatable=true&toolbar=false&CatPage=1990

View attachment 205


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## Joe Tedesco

*Tools for compliance*

www.eri-safety.com see the videos


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## sckeeth

I have all those tools already, I was just looking for a little more protection. So I can come home at the end of the day to my family.


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## gsawyerjr

*PPE at a Nuke*

We have, here at this plant, worn PPE for years. 480 Volts required Nomex labcoat or coveralls, face shield, and rubber inner gloves with leather outers. These are air tested before every usage. Hearing protection was also required. Just recently, we have changed over to Excel coveralls because they have a 7.7 Kcal rating as opposed to a 6.6 for Nomex.

Recently, we also purchased 25 Kcal complete suits. Hoods with air supplies and green face shields. 25 Kcal overalls with a 25 Kcal outer jackets. This will be used on some special 480 volt evolutions.

We also use 100 Kcal complete suits for working 4.1 and 6.9 KV. This includes 100 Kcal hoods and face shields, air supplies, leggings, shoe covers and outer jacket. We also wear rubber gloves rated 22 Kv and water test them before every usage. They are also tested by our lab every year. Over those are leather gauntlet gloves. The 100Kcal and 25 Kcal PPE is made by Oberon.

The 100 Kcal PPE is laundered after every usage. We have about $100,000 in PPE alone. I think we now have at least 25 100 Kcal suits complete.

We also purchased new hotsticks and shephards hooks (useless). 

All of our hot work, 480 v and above require 2 people. One person is the worker and the other is the safety checker. Both have to be suited out equally.

Anyone needing more PPE info, such as our PPE matrix here at the plant, just get in touch with me. I use this stuff on a daily basis and am pretty familiar with its field usage.


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## Joe Tedesco

*Thanks for the detailed information*

Search on: www.osha.gov for PPE rules


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## gsawyerjr

*PPE Revisited*

Before I worked here at the Power Plant, I enjoyed 33 years as a Construction Electrician. I have traveled all over the US and worked in 12 different states. 

I have worked about every conceivable electrical job known, from power plants, refineries, pulp mills, mines, food processing, hospitals, high rises to residential work.

There isn't too much that I haven't done or seen done. No brag, just fact.

In all that time, I never used PPE. The thought never occurred to me. As far as I was concerned, PPE was for wusses.

However, since I have been here at the power plant, my ideas have changed. If I had to do it over again, I would definitely wear PPE.

When working anything live above 120 volts, at a minimum; hard hat with colored face shield, a nomex or excel shirt and low voltage gloves. For the one or two man shop, this outlay of a few dollars will more than pay for itself in the long run. 

When I think of the videos and training that I have received here, I consider myself lucky that I made it through the trade all these years.


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## NewtonsApple

*Arc Flash Clothing*

After we received our calc's we had a very difficult time getting our arc flash clothing and equipment. Our order was on backorder with Salisberry for over 2 months, and this included common items like insulated gloves. When then found this supplier and they got us covered quickly http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/category/electrical-safety-products.html

It really chaps your hide when you are trying to do things safely and all you can do is wait. It was nice to find a company that was able to take care of all of our arc flash needs.


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## mickhick

PPE is very important and as important is the correct fit from trousers and boots, to eyewear and gloves.


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## Zog

MDShunk said:


> The stuff I'm wearing in the pic is just di-electric, and doesn't help in an arc flash. Well, the face shield will. Otherwise, you'd just have melted rubber all over yourself.


Actually the rubber gloves hold up very well to an arc flash, while they wont carry an ATPV rating, because no such testing standard exists to rate them, a friend of mine has done extensive testing on the rubber gloves at KEMA and the melt points were very high. The leather protectors for the gloves is your best arc flash hand protection, higher than any arc rated PPE. 


MDShunk said:


> The stuff Joe's wearing on the right that looks like quilted coveralls is genunie high-dollar arc-flash gear.


The stuff Joe is wearing is crap, those gloves have very low ratings and are hard to work in, there is no requirement for arc rated gloves. Plus they get mis used. I have seen these gloves, rated at 10-12 cal/cm2 sold with HRC 2 kits. If you have an HRC 2 labeld piece of equipment the Ei at the assumed working distance (Usually 18") can be up to 8 cal/cm2. If you use 10 cal/cm2 gloves and your hands are only a few inches away the Ei will be much higher, maybe 40 cal/cm2 @ 2" so those gloves will break open and not offer any protection. 

Most people don't understand this concept looking at that label, I never recommend arc rated gloves, too dangerous. Use you leather protectors from your rubber gloves, they offer more like 80 cal/cm2 of protection.


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## Zog

MDShunk said:


> And you won't. The best thing you can do is to order your gloves 1/2 a size too small for a snug fit.


Bull, I have plenty of arc rated garments that are the same as the clothes people wear everyday. Slacks, dress shirts, long sleeve T-shirts, etc...

The problem is most people don't know what they are looking for and turn to some local supply house or online safety sales site that dosen't carry any of the new materials and styles that have become available in the last 5 years.


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## Zog

sckeeth said:


> I would fall under the first two categories and rarely in the second. So what recommendations do you have for me of gear to get. My wife has been on my case to get at least gloves to work on panels, including a tattoo for my ring finger. I am willing to do so I just haven't found any that are not to bulky.


What PPE do you need?
Daily wear or coveralls?
What climate?
Rent/lease or buy?
Laundering? Who will do it, who will ensure it is done right?
What HRC's are you exposed to? (Voltage has little to do with it)
Any chemical exposure? That determines your material choice.
How dirty will they get, industrial or home laundering?
Any clean room requirements?
Does Made in USA matter?
Does it need to be union made?
Does price matter or do you want the best regardless of price?

All these questions and more need to be considered to get the right PPE, there are about 20 different materials out there, all with advantages and disadvantages. 

However, 90% of these guys selling the PPE have no idea about the performance of the materials or the other choices, they just sell what they buy, and usually that means Indura Ultra Soft, which is a good material for alot of people. Anyone can make coveralls or flash suits out of these fabrics (Indura is made in Chicago by Westex for example), the features and quality of the PPE you buy varies greatly from one place to the other so you better do your homework. 

Your employer is required to provide your PPE for you, bew OSHA law in Summer of 2008.


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## Phillips05

Originally Posted by *sckeeth*  
_I would fall under the first two categories and rarely in the second. So what recommendations do you have for me of gear to get. My wife has been on my case to get at least gloves to work on panels, including a tattoo for my ring finger. I am willing to do so I just haven't found any that are not to bulky.

You previously mentioned that you fall within two categories and rarely in the second. What do you mean by those categories? "HRC?"
_


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## Joe Tedesco

MDShunk said:


> How imporrtant is the right PPE to you? Do you use PPE? Under what circumstances do you know you're supposed to use personal protective equipment, but you choose not to? Under what circumstances do you always use personal protective equipment?
> 
> The following picture shows rubber insulated PPE in the left pic, and arc flash PPE in the right picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right hand photo courtesy of Joe Tedesco, NEC consultant, www.joetedesco.org.


Most people ignore the need for PPE! That's really sad!!


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## oldtimer

Joe Tedesco said:


> Most people ignore the need for PPE! That's really sad!!


 Slightly off topic: What do you think about electricians wearing jewellery?

I am not being funny!

When I used to work at the mines, we were not allowed to wear rings, and I have not worn one since.

My wife had it sized down, and she still wears it.

I always thought it was a good thing, to not wear items that CAN cause problems. 

Now, with the style I see tradespeople wearing chains, and other ornaments.

Is it recommended not to, by safety organizations etc?


What is your opinion???


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## Zog

OSHA 1910.333(c)(8) "Conductive apparel." Conductive articles of jewelry and clothing (such a watch bands, bracelets, rings, key chains, necklaces, metalized aprons, cloth with conductive thread, or metal headgear) may not be worn if they might contact exposed energized parts. However, such articles may be worn if they are rendered nonconductive by covering, wrapping, or other insulating means.


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## Wirenuting

Rings are fun to wear at work. Except that day I got it caught on a vertical lift. Took me off my feet and almost tore my arm off as it went thru the ceiling. 
Lucky someone hit the e-stop. 
30 years later I still don't wear it at work.


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## oldtimer

Wirenuting said:


> Rings are fun to wear at work. Except that day I got it caught on a vertical lift. Took me off my feet and almost tore my arm off as it went thru the ceiling.
> Lucky someone hit the e-stop.
> 30 years later I still don't wear it at work.


 Exactly my point. Why take chances.


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## jza

oldtimer said:


> Slightly off topic: What do you think about electricians wearing jewellery?
> 
> I am not being funny!
> 
> When I used to work at the mines, we were not allowed to wear rings, and I have not worn one since.
> 
> My wife had it sized down, and she still wears it.
> 
> I always thought it was a good thing, to not wear items that CAN cause problems.
> 
> Now, with the style I see tradespeople wearing chains, and other ornaments.
> 
> Is it recommended not to, by safety organizations etc?
> 
> 
> What is your opinion???


I used to wear a watch. Got told by my first employer not to wear it at work.

Haven't worn a watch ever since. 

Oh, and I'll wear PPE depending on who's looking.


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## sbrn33

I still wear my ring at work. If I am doing anything dangerous I take it off and stick it in my pocket. Even climbing ladders and **** like that I take it off. I want my wife to wear hers so I feel like I should wear mine. 
I know,kinda gay but whatever.


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## Zog

jza said:


> Oh, and I'll wear PPE depending on who's looking.


 That may be the dumbest comment ever posted here.


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## 76nemo

Stupid is as stupid does


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## MDShunk

oldtimer said:


> Slightly off topic: What do you think about electricians wearing jewellery?
> 
> I am not being funny!
> 
> When I used to work at the mines, we were not allowed to wear rings, and I have not worn one since.
> 
> My wife had it sized down, and she still wears it.
> 
> I always thought it was a good thing, to not wear items that CAN cause problems.
> 
> Now, with the style I see tradespeople wearing chains, and other ornaments.
> 
> Is it recommended not to, by safety organizations etc?
> 
> 
> What is your opinion???


I haven't worn mine in years. I used to take it on and off all the time, depending on the task at hand. That was a pain, and the potential to lose it was always there. I'm thinking about getting a wedding band tattoo on my finger, maybe. I see that as a good compromise.


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## Wirenuting

I wear my gloves when needed and my hard hat all the time and hearing protection as needed, But that's all we get. They will not provide any further PPE. They say we don't need it and can't have it. 
And no work does not come to a halt. Electrical PPE is something they wish would go away. But it can't. It's a shame that we can't enforce our own rules,,, but OSHA is never invited to our house,,, so to speak. LoL


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## Jlarson

Nothing but a watch for me, and I take that off before I t-shoot live. 

I'm defiantly not wearing rings on the job, _ever_, look up the degloving injury, and you'll see why.


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## AFOREMA1

Ok first unless it has changed it applies to anything over 50 volts. As far as what PPE you need to wear that would be determined by the arc fault rating of the equipment you are working on, that is determined by an arc fault study of the equipment by engineers. The information is the supposed to be placed on the arcflash tag on the equipment.

PPE goes from level 0 ,just basic fire ******** clothes eye and ear protection and gloves, to level 5 which is basically a double quieted suit and hood. There is a lot to choosing your PPE


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## Big John

AFOREMA1 said:


> ...PPE goes from level 0 ,just basic fire ******** clothes eye and ear protection and gloves, to level 5 which is basically a double quieted suit and hood....


 I know they make 100 cal. suits but I was under the impression that NFPA didn't sanction anything over Category 4 because the survivability drops off so much even with a suit. Is there a true Category 5?

-John


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## MDShunk

Big John said:


> I know they make 100 cal. suits but I was under the impression that NFPA didn't sanction anything over Category 4 because the survivability drops off so much even with a suit. Is there a true Category 5?
> 
> -John


You might not get burned, but the pressure wave would knock out your hearing and cave in your chest. It would be like getting hit by a freight train.


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## farlsincharge

Safety glasses whenever there is an actual hazard present. I have had enough **** in my eyes to be diligent with this one.
Gloves, nomex coveralls, and a shield when working live at 480 and 600.
I did buy a hard hat, but damned if I could tell you where it is.


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## AFOREMA1

MDShunk said:


> You might not get burned, but the pressure wave would knock out your hearing and cave in your chest. It would be like getting hit by a freight train.


Yes their is a level 5 protection , but if you get hit at that level your pretty much wrecked
But the suits exist. If a facility completes its arc flash study and finds level 5 its recommended changes be made to reduce it down to no more than a level 4 to make it safer.plus there are more steps in your safety plan if you have level 5's around.


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## Joe Tedesco

*Best PPE to use in the world...is your mind!*

*Best PPE to use in the world...is your mind!*
*Keep the gears working* :thumbsup:

PS: Look here for NIOSH information on FACE. 

Don't make a mistake and wind up as an accident victim. Search for this report:

U.S. Department of Energy
Office of Environment, Safety and Health
Type A Accident Investigation
Electrical Arc Injury
on October 11, 2004, at the
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center,
Menlo Park, California​


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## Zog

AFOREMA1 said:


> Yes their is a level 5 protection , but if you get hit at that level your pretty much wrecked
> But the suits exist. If a facility completes its arc flash study and finds level 5 its recommended changes be made to reduce it down to no more than a level 4 to make it safer.plus there are more steps in your safety plan if you have level 5's around.


There is no such thing as HRC 5, but I know where you work now because I know the dolt who put those stickers on.


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## Zog

Wirenuting said:


> I wear my gloves when needed and my hard hat all the time and hearing protection as needed, But that's all we get. They will not provide any further PPE. They say we don't need it and can't have it.
> And no work does not come to a halt. Electrical PPE is something they wish would go away. But it can't. It's a shame that we can't enforce our own rules,,, but OSHA is never invited to our house,,, so to speak. LoL


Employers are required to pay for the PPE you need for your job, with a couple of exceptions. This final rule came out in 2008. 
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=20094&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER


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## AFOREMA1

Zog said:


> There is no such thing as HRC 5, but I know where you work now because I know the dolt who put those stickers on.


Sorry about that , there are.5 levels of protection but you are correct level 4 is the highest
since they start at level 0.


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## Wirenuting

Zog said:


> Employers are required to pay for the PPE you need for your job, with a couple of exceptions. This final rule came out in 2008.
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=20094&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER


Great link, thank you. I'll print and reread it tonight. But I think their," were I work", loophole & out is under amendments XVII & XVIII towards the end of the document. 
But alot of the info can help with some things here.


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## Joe Tedesco

*Take off your ring!*

*Take off your ring!*


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## Zog

I have to disagree with that video. It has nothing to do with shock, it makes no difference if you have a ring on or not, if your finger makes contact, you will get shocked. 

However, there is an arc flash hazard, if the ring gets between 2 different potentials you can develop an arc flash. 

And rings are a huge hazard if they get caught on something. Had a guy in my submarine use a pipe above his top rack to swing out of his rack for a fire drill, ring got caught on the pipe hanger and ripped his finger off.


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## Joe Tedesco

*Work related electrocution*



Zog said:


> I have to disagree with that video. It has nothing to do with shock, it makes no difference if you have a ring on or not, if your finger makes contact, you will get shocked.
> 
> However, there is an arc flash hazard, if the ring gets between 2 different potentials you can develop an arc flash.
> 
> And rings are a huge hazard if they get caught on something. Had a guy in my submarine use a pipe above his top rack to swing out of his rack for a fire drill, ring got caught on the pipe hanger and ripped his finger off.


Take a look here it supports your last paragraph. Also, see the gory images.


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## MDShunk

I've seen arc flash labels that say "No Hazard Category Found". I don't know if that's really good or really bad.


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## 76nemo

MDShunk said:


> I've seen arc flash labels that say "No Hazard Category Found". I don't know if that's really good or really bad.


 

That boils down to "qualified" personnel only.


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## Zog

MDShunk said:


> I've seen arc flash labels that say "No Hazard Category Found". I don't know if that's really good or really bad.


Really bad, that usually means >40cal/cm2 because the moron that did the analysis did not know squat about what he was doing, that is a default HRC message for one of the software suites, Easypower I think.


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## Zog

Joe Tedesco said:


> Take a look here it supports your last paragraph. Also, see the gory images.


I saw that happen, had some of his blood on me in fact. Doc was able to re-attach it, the surgery (Like all of them) was in crews mess on a table we all ate on with a bunch of us watching.


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## MDShunk

Zog said:


> Really bad, that usually means >40cal/cm2 because the moron that did the analysis did not know squat about what he was doing, that is a default HRC message for one of the software suites, Easypower I think.


Recently, I've seen that message on stickers done by these guys: http://www.faithtechnologies.com/services/esp_arc_flash


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## RIVETER

MDShunk said:


> How imporrtant is the right PPE to you? Do you use PPE? Under what circumstances do you know you're supposed to use personal protective equipment, but you choose not to? Under what circumstances do you always use personal protective equipment?
> 
> The following picture shows rubber insulated PPE in the left pic, and arc flash PPE in the right picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right hand photo courtesy of Joe Tedesco, NEC consultant, www.joetedesco.org.


Two weeks ago I wore the uniform to verify that 13.800 volts was not there for the outside contractors. But I looked good in it.


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## Zog

MDShunk said:


> Recently, I've seen that message on stickers done by these guys: http://www.faithtechnologies.com/services/esp_arc_flash


Just by looking at the plethora of services they offer I would be leary of thier abilities. They do not even list short circuit studies as a service, and you have to do one to do an arc flash study. No mention of PDC studies either. 

Then I read the arc flash page and it gets scary. 

"We provide ARC Flash Hazard analyses in accordance with the National Fire Protection Association’s Guidelines, including NFPA 70E and other standards like IEEE "

Put in perspective it would be like "We wire houses just like OSHA says to do it, and other books like the NEC"

Now that is just all based on impressions, and my experience discussing this same thing about unqualified contractors doing arc flash studies with the 70E and IEEE 1584 commitee, but all the red flasgs are here.


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## mattsilkwood

MDShunk said:


> You might not get burned, but the pressure wave would knock out your hearing and cave in your chest. It would be like getting hit by a freight train.


 The way it was explained to me was it was the difference between an open casket and a closed casket.


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## Joe Tedesco

*Donnie's Accident*

*Donnie's Accident*

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMb5zhtR8hw&h=0fa78


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## jza

Zog said:


> That may be the dumbest comment ever posted here.


Dumber than the guy who took it seriously?

Doubt that.


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## Zog

jza said:


> Dumber than the guy who took it seriously?


Yep, dumber than that. But not as dumb as your previous 100 most recent posts, none of which have shown any sign of knowing anything about your trade, just insults and smart alec comments. 

Let's review shall we?
http://www.electriciantalk.com/search.php?searchid=1015979


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## Mike_586

Zog said:


> none of which have shown any sign of knowing anything about your trade, just insults and smart alec comments.



I beg to differ! Check this link out.

:001_huh:





....never mind :laughing:


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## Joe Tedesco

jza said:


> I used to wear a watch. Got told by my first employer not to wear it at work.
> 
> Haven't worn a watch ever since.
> 
> Oh, and I'll wear PPE depending on who's looking.


*Electrical Safety is no Accident! *


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## jza

Joe Tedesco said:


> *Electrical Safety is no Accident! *


Whatever that means.


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