# Arc fault breaker



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

There's a lot written here about afci diagnostics , but most of us basically treat them like a GFPE (30ma) dalafosse. 

One common problem is mixed neutrals , usually relevant quickly

However, sometimes all it takes is a heavy enough load where_ inducuction _, through JB's of mutual circuitry, amounts to an intermittent pita 

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You have not given us enough info. An afci generally needs to see 4 amps or so before it will trip unless it has gfci protection also-- If it has gfci protection then it would trip all the time rather than every few weeks or months. I suspect something you are using is causing the issue.

I have seen a laptop as well as smart phones trip gfci receptacles at my house. The units never trip until the family comes here ( they will be here starting Sun) and start using their phones. I suspect it will trip again. It does not always do it but it does it periodically when they are here. My wife and I have the old flip phones


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

dalafosse said:


> I have a home I wired and have one afci breaker serving a bedroom that trips every 3 weeks to 2 months. I have traced wire back, taken switches and receps out to check wiring behind them, and changed breaker out and problem still continues. There is not much in the room using power but light, fan, computer, lamp, and router. I can not isolate it to one item. The gc is adamant that the issue is on me. Any advice?


Just for s&g's, can you move that breaker to the opposite phase and see if that solves it?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

dalafosse said:


> I have a home I wired and have one afci breaker serving a bedroom that trips every 3 weeks to 2 months. I have traced wire back, taken switches and receps out to check wiring behind them, and changed breaker out and problem still continues. There is not much in the room using power but light, fan, computer, lamp, and router. I can not isolate it to one item. The gc is adamant that the issue is on me. Any advice?


Is this an Eaton panel?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dalafosse said:


> I have a home I wired and have one afci breaker serving a bedroom that trips every 3 weeks to 2 months. I have traced wire back, taken switches and receps out to check wiring behind them, and changed breaker out and problem still continues. There is not much in the room using power but light, fan, computer, lamp, and router. I can not isolate it to one item. The gc is adamant that the issue is on me. Any advice?


Is there a smoke device in the room and possibly has an unintentional neutral path back to the panel?


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

My Call

You need to megger the line; split up the circuit and test the partial lengths. 

Short of that you might have them turn up the heat for a half an hour before
you get there, then put a hair dryer on the line.

Was it when they used a larger amount of heating?

A temperature difference ever so slightly will cause the circuit
to move against a nail to cause your short.

Any variables like air space above or below where the circuit might
be affected by the heated space it could be just the difference.
Even just loading up the one circuit is pushing it and then the 
temperature changes.



Your fault, no it's the nail bangers fault!


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## whittom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have seen loose light bulbs in ceiling fans trip arc-faults. After opening up all devices in room of course.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm often confronted with either the afci doing it's job, or it being defective. 

Like all sensitive electronica, they don't age well with dirty power 

and so on many of these _'intermittent w/no obvious culprit'_ calls we often just change them out , wait & see.

It's gotten to the point where i've a whole box of questionable afci's in stock which i wish i could send back to the manufacturers 

~CS~


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I'm often confronted with either the afci doing it's job, or it being defective.
> 
> Like all sensitive electronica, they don't age well with dirty power
> 
> ...


Send them back and they will end up back in the supplyhouse...:no:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

dalafosse said:


> I have a home I wired and have one afci breaker serving a bedroom that trips every 3 weeks to 2 months. I have traced wire back, taken switches and receps out to check wiring behind them, and changed breaker out and problem still continues. There is not much in the room using power but light, fan, computer, lamp, and router. I can not isolate it to one item. The gc is adamant that the issue is on me. Any advice?


Does this happen when vacuuming the room?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Morning:

All excellent responses to a problem the " powers that be " created.

I have no problem with manufacturers being consulted when making code, BUT *the tail should not wag the dog*

AFCI were designed to prevent fires in homes. They are getting better, but they still have issues. Seldom is the problem caused by a qualified experienced electrician.

I feel for our members to the south where AFCI is required through out the home. In Canada it's only bedrooms.

When manufacturers design a product that works and helps our trade, electricians should then push to make it code. Manufacturers should *NOT* be pushing code changes to sell crap products that don't solve a safety issue.

Sorry for the rant! :no:

Borgi


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

There is another problem to the issue. I have had experience where afci breakers reacted to *upstream* electrical loose connection issues in the power company wiring up past the point of attachment to the dwelling. It took a long time and many trips back to the location before I finally figured out what was going in and had it fixed by the poco. I want about 5,000 bucks for the time expended and having to fill my spare drawer up with reject afci breakers like what chicken Steve has. I just can't figure out who to send the bill to that will actually pay me back.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I can recall all those past claims of upstream not being a problem. But when there is nothing internally found , there's no other place to look. :001_huh:

They _(the afci's)_ say right on the instructions to remove them before megging. But the simple truth is, mother nature megs 'em anyways. 

So how does one warranty this>>>> ? 










I'm informed about the only thing the test button proves, is that the test button trips them. 

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

1) Remove AFCI

2) Place AFCI on anvil or other hard surface

3) Smash with hammer

4) Install regular breaker


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> 1) Remove AFCI
> 
> 2) Place AFCI on anvil or other hard surface
> 
> ...


 
:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

MTW said:


> 1) Remove AFCI
> 
> 2) Place AFCI on anvil or other hard surface
> 
> ...


Get it inspected first. Then proceed with above instructions. :laughing:

Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I still service panels full of type 1 afci's. 

Some of these i installed in the late 90's/early 00's, until an_ nfpa ruling_ resulted in our then chief state inspectors desire for them in service upgrades null & void

The type 1's heat up. One can place their hand over 4-5 and palpate enough heat to be a concern. I've entertained numerous complaints on that alone.:no:

One of our more understanding local ahj's suggested i place them every other slot, which seemed to help.:whistling2:

Because we were the first state, one would think we'd lend some forensic insight to longevity, efficacy , consumer product reviews, or the like

~CS~


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## Lectric (Nov 22, 2014)

I have had a similar problem with a Siemens breaker, after the third trip to the house I called Siemens and they suggested to change out breaker and call it a day. Siemens admitted to me that any breaker manufactured before June 18 2014 is in question, these were know to have problems with certain dimmers, cfl's, and other electronics. The Tech from Siemens told me that Lutron was working with them to make their dimmers more arc fault friendly. As in most cases when something is dictated by industry and political influence, the cure is worse than the disease, We can all argue wether these things really work or not but I for one don't think they are worth the expense..JMHO.


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