# Flat Rate...again



## chicken steve

FR _totally _depends on the situation

If you've xray eyes for old work, along with a crystal ball for customers incessant indecisions & AHJ add ons , go you

If not , or if you simply don't have_ time_ to, you might want to quote the old fashioned and quaint T&M estimate and let the chips fall in your back pocket

Oh and btw, for those here that always comment i'm some sort of FR denier , i just activated and passed inspection on a FR job that grossed $500 a man hr

all without some internet _'failed EC now FR guru'_ software , tutorial, or intervention

why? because i've being doing this before they had a place to log on and spam you

Image that!:whistling2:

~CS~


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## electricmalone

chicken steve said:


> FR totally depends on the situation If you've xray eyes for old work, along with a crystal ball for customers incessant indecisions & AHJ add ons , go you If not , or if you simply don't have time to, you might want to quote the old fashioned and quaint T&M estimate and let the chips fall in your back pocket Oh and btw, for those here that always comment i'm some sort of FR denier , i just activated and passed inspection on a FR job that grossed $500 a man hr all without some internet 'failed EC now FR guru' software , tutorial, or intervention why? because i've being doing this before they had a place to log on and spam you Image that!:whistling2: ~CS~


The bosses want to explore doing a flat rate system for Resi service. They've done quite well with their construction, but were floundering in the service aspect. I came along and showed them that they were leaving money on the table by charging straight T&M. They let me straight price a couple of jobs that had already been done by another service guy, asked a dozen customers if they would rather pay the T&M gamble game, or get a straightforward price. They all said straightforward pricing, even though it was on average 20% higher. It seems like the flat rate puts the unknown time variable on the EC and takes the burden off the customers.


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## HARRY305E

electricmalone said:


> The bosses want to explore doing a flat rate system for Resi service. They've done quite well with their construction, but were floundering in the service aspect. I came along and showed them that they were leaving money on the table by charging straight T&M. They let me straight price a couple of jobs that had already been done by another service guy, asked a dozen customers if they would rather pay the T&M gamble game, or get a straightforward price. They all said straightforward pricing, even though it was on average 20% higher. It seems like the flat rate puts the unknown time variable on the EC and takes the burden off the customers.



*ES2 Flat Rate Software*


It gets better and better every day:thumbsup:


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## Power Trip

I use ES2 and agree with Harry it's awesome I have used others but there task have nothing on ES2. It's the best $99 a month you can spend. You better sign up soon because the new software is coming out and it's sure to go up.


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## electricmalone

Anyone have multiple users on ES2? Wondering how easy it is to merge data into the company's Sage Timberline (or whatever they're calling it now) accounting software...


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## Power Trip

That's the only thing I noticed about electrical flat rate. electrical flat rate is terrible ES2 has great task but no financials for you accountant or doesn't sync any data. The ones that will sync have terrible task's there is no complete system for electricians like plumbing and HVAC then you have the new flat rate and Joe Crisara's whose give different options per task either way there is no complete package to make it easy I always have to do double entries one for flat rate software then I need to go to the office and enter it into quick books. I hope someone gets it right and comes out with a complete system


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## Switched

We are a multi man service shop running ES2. We have had great success using FR for about 2-2-1/2 years now. ES2 has come along way in the last couple of years, and I have been along for that ride. It is a great product that simplifies things and saves time. 

Is ES2 the only system out there? No, even CS has some type of system that he has created, possibly on spread sheets or something. ES2 is however "Turn Key". You only need to do a minimal amount of stuff; enter labor rates, tax rates, contract language, etc....Then your good to go!


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## FrunkSlammer

Power Trip said:


> You better sign up soon because the new software is coming out and it's sure to go up.


What is changing in the new software? I'm going to keep chugging along doing my own quotes, but this summer I might advertise and try out ES2 to do quicker quotes. 

Any Canadians use the software? I emailed them and they said a lot of Canadians use it.


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## Switched

FrunkSlammer said:


> What is changing in the new software? I'm going to keep chugging along doing my own quotes, but this summer I might advertise and try out ES2 to do quicker quotes.
> 
> Any Canadians use the software? I emailed them and they said a lot of Canadians use it.


There are a number of Canadians that use it. In fact, they are the reason that some of the changes in the new software will be there. From what I understand, you guys seem to pay a higher cost on materials. In the new system, you will be able to adjust your materials costs.

That is just one of the new changes. There will be a substantial change from the old system to the new one. It will become much more of a CRM software, with the ability of inventory control, and some type of QB integration. This should eliminate a lot of the double and triple entry with other programs.


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## T&K

I can't make money T&M...period. You can tell a customer you charge $75/hour/man, and they laugh. However, you can tell them you will replace their old 100 amp service with a 200 amp service, and get rid of the old fuse box and replace it with a new breaker panel for $1800, and make waaaaayyy more than $75/hr/man. The best "flat rate" software is experience, and learning by way of the hard knocks.


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## macmikeman

The thing is, with CSS3 and HTML 5 there will be tons of new entry's into the flat rate software market, you can bet your lunch money on it. The libraries are already there , it is more pick and pop in than what was essentially a pretty daunting undertaking in the past, even with the first and easiest to institute multiplatform IDE that you could get thru the Apple Store with. 

Having said all that, I am also as anxious as Harry and others to have the new system out. It is going to be a wonder kid is my guess. 


Flat rater since around 1990 for service work..


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## chicken steve

Switched said:


> Is ES2 the only system out there? No, even CS has some type of system that he has created, possibly on spread sheets or something. ES2 is however "Turn Key". You only need to do a minimal amount of stuff; enter labor rates, tax rates, contract language, etc....Then your good to go!


Ask what the last generation of estimators did Switch. 

For the most part, they all made a living w/o the wonders of the 'net

They also has a lot more going on upstairs , because they lacked the crutch of electronica that athropies it

I find it ironic that this forum has many times lamented the younger generations inability to make change w/o an electronic cash register providing the tally

Yet subscribe to what is basically the same tool estimating

~CS~


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## chicken steve

T&K said:


> I can't make money T&M...period. You can tell a customer you charge $75/hour/man, and they laugh. However, you can tell them you will replace their old 100 amp service with a 200 amp service, and get rid of the old fuse box and replace it with a new breaker panel for $1800, and make waaaaayyy more than $75/hr/man. The best "flat rate" software is experience, and learning by way of the hard knocks.



_word up!_

guess who's got the job when the big storm knocks out the power!



~CS~


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## macmikeman

chicken steve said:


> Ask what the last generation of estimators did Switch.
> 
> For the most part, they all made a living w/o the wonders of the 'net
> 
> They also has a lot more going on upstairs , because they lacked the crutch of electronica that athropies it
> 
> I find it ironic that this forum has many times lamented the younger generations inability to make change w/o an electronic cash register providing the tally
> 
> Yet subscribe to what is basically the same tool estimating
> 
> ~CS~


I offer that if you had it as together estimating wise as you would lead, for the length of time you have been at it, you would not be raisin chickens for a living.... Perhaps maybe just maybe it is time for you to invest in some softwares yourself Steven. You just might like the country club life once you start gettin y'self somes......


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## chicken steve

How do you know i haven't Mac? 

~CS~


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## macmikeman

chicken steve said:


> How do you know i haven't Mac?
> 
> ~CS~


I don't really know for sure, but you have indicated as much often in your postings about the hard times for Steve. 


Me? I bitch about customers and situations, but ever see me whine about the bottom line? 

What I need is some software to contend with the other boneheads I run into....:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve

macmikeman said:


> I don't really know for sure, but you have indicated as much often in your postings about the hard times for Steve.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because i've been in the workforce 40 yrs Mac.
> 
> I've been the **** o' the walk, as well as scratched out a living in this trade
> 
> lotta perspective to opine on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me? I bitch about customers and situations, but ever see me whine about the bottom line?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor I....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I need is some software to contend with the other boneheads I run into....:thumbsup:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> as you wish>
> 
> http://www.boneheadsoftware.com/
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## FrunkSlammer

I've been doing my own flat rate estimating for a few months and I like it a lot more than T&M. I just guess how long things will take me, some things I take longer, some things are quicker.. seems to balance out. 

I'll buy the software when I need to pump out a lot more quotes and quicker. I can see it would pay for itself easily.


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## electricguy

FrunkSlammer said:


> Any Canadians use the software? I emailed them and they said a lot of Canadians use it.



Yes I use it.


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## FrunkSlammer

electricguy said:


> Yes I use it.


How do you deal with the pricing difference on material?


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## chicken steve

electricmalone said:


> The bosses want to explore doing a flat rate system for Resi service. They've done quite well with their construction, but were floundering in the service aspect. I came along and showed them that they were leaving money on the table by charging straight T&M. They let me straight price a couple of jobs that had already been done by another service guy, asked a dozen customers if they would rather pay the T&M gamble game, or get a straightforward price. *They all said straightforward pricing, even though it was on average 20% higher*. It seems like the flat rate puts the unknown time variable on the EC and takes the burden off the customers.


Scratch a bean counter, find a coward every time Malone

That translates to them looking good before their corporate masters, and you taking it in the shorts for the unforeseen (or what they aren't telling you)

Been there, done that, lost the Tshirt

good luck

~CS~


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## Bootss

I use a flat rate book, and pictures of previous jobs together its a good sales tool. we use it as a third party pricing athority ( helps to keep the customer from haggling the price)
the book covers about 80 percent of the projects we do in the service work.
if needed one of my associates can call into the office and will give them a flat rate price over the phone.
use the pricing sticky to refine the prices I use, book has two prices for each task.


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## Tiger

We switched to flat rate or upfront pricing 8 or 9 years ago. In that time I have never heard someone in residential service say "I tried flat rate for a year and couldn't make it work so I went back to T&M". 

Any pricing system will need to be adjusted. If you track every job and check it for profitability you will have the correct price for that job. If you track each task that went into that job you will have the correct price for each task. Any pricing system gives the basic price. Basic prices must be adjusted after looking at actual conditions.

What we use for pricing a task or job is Loaded Labor (labor with overhead) plus Materials with sales tax with profit. I have a spreadsheet for checking jobs but after 8 or 9 years I can do it pretty well in my head.


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## Classic_Toby

For those of you that have employees. Do they still get paid by the hour or by the job? If by the job how has it been working out? 

Can or how do you flat rate a repair or troubleshooting, when you really do not know what the problem is? 

Flat rating is new to me, not sure it will work for our company. But from what some of you are saying, sounds like a great gig...


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## FrunkSlammer

I don't have employees, but if I did, I wouldn't really want to pay per job.. The best people to make the most money per job will be greasy salesman who lie and oversell. And that'll be bad for your business, unless your name is rewire. 

I'd rather just pay a competitive wage, teach them how to properly quote, expect good work and top quality service and then do profit sharing in the form of bonuses to those who excelled overall.


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## electricmalone

FrunkSlammer said:


> I don't have employees, but if I did, I wouldn't really want to pay per job.. The best people to make the most money per job will be greasy salesman who lie and oversell. And that'll be bad for your business, unless your name is rewire. I'd rather just pay a competitive wage, teach them how to properly quote, expect good work and top quality service and then do profit sharing in the form of bonuses to those who excelled overall.


This is the route the owner of my company has decided to go, for the time being. We do a good clip of business on T&M, and he's satisfied with the profit we are turning. He wants us to grow the division, reassess in three months, and probably have me try a flat rate program side by side for the next three months, compare what we charged on T&M...


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## chicken steve

Classic_Toby said:


> For those of you that have employees. Do they still get paid by the hour or by the job? If by the job how has it been working out?
> 
> Can or how do you flat rate a repair or troubleshooting, when you really do not know what the problem is?
> 
> Flat rating is new to me, not sure it will work for our company. But from what some of you are saying, sounds like a great gig...


The employees still get paid by the hour. They are sent out to do a _'diagnostic'_, which determines a FR, the diagnostic charge(s) often being included on acceptance.

They have the customer sign off, and when what would take Xray eyes to have _diagnosed anything properly_ in the first place appears a problem, revisit the fine print to up the ante'

~CS~


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## RGH

I made my own flat rate system. Refining it all the time assemble type systems fully burdened labor then gang up assembly's to fill task. Most resi is terribly redundant. Only variable is situation then I x up factions by. 25hr for difficulties.


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## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> The employees still get paid by the hour. They are sent out to do a _'diagnostic'_, which determines a FR, the diagnostic charge(s) often being included on acceptance.
> 
> They have the customer sign off, and when what would take Xray eyes to have _diagnosed anything properly_ in the first place appears a problem, revisit the fine print to up the ante'
> 
> ~CS~



Just have a diagnostic fee, tell the client up front what that is, also tell them that once you discover what the problem is, you stop and give them a price to fix the problem before you do the work, if they object to the price of the repair, then you collect your diagnostic fee and leave.

People are much happier when they know what the grand total is up front.

If you tell them it will be T&M Your rates better be really low and they will not be happy because they will not know what the job will cost in the end.

T&M exposes your hourly rate and it had better be lower then what "THEY" make at their job because they think that someone else pays for all of your business costs and that you live in a homeless shelter and get fed in a soup kitchen....


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## RGH

This is all fine and well....but my bigger problem is the no stop race to the bottom.....I was out bid last week by 3 companies...200 amp service upgrade for $1600 by a well known 70+ yr old company....wtf....f\r or t\m I am at home for that kind of money....I was shocked this guy runs a 4 truck shop too vs 1 man guy me...bet he did it to stay busy.....for 1 day???...idk this spark has bigger fish to fry....however you guys can stay afloat is the real q & a.


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## HARRY304E

RGH said:


> This is all fine and well....but my bigger problem is the no stop race to the bottom.....I was out bid last week by 3 companies...200 amp service upgrade for $1600 by a well known 70+ yr old company....wtf....f\r or t\m I am at home for that kind of money....I was shocked this guy runs a 4 truck shop too vs 1 man guy me...bet he did it to stay busy.....for 1 day???...idk this spark has bigger fish to fry....however you guys can stay afloat is the real q & a.


That just means he's not busy with what he normally does, and does not know how to price a service change, or the client is outright lying to you.


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## RGH

That's what I thought...but Ho invited me back and asked me if I could beat the written quotes he has...he gave me their names...I called 1 of the other sparks that bid {we are friends} he confirmed as much....I decliend.....plumbers charge $80\hr and smile at you...we should be so obvious if we would collectively charge are worth.....and hold firm at some baseline{s}...IMHO


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## HARRY304E

RGH said:


> That's what I thought...but Ho invited me back and asked me if I could beat the written quotes he has...he gave me their names...I called 1 of the other sparks that bid {we are friends} he confirmed as much....I decliend.....plumbers charge $80\hr and smile at you...we should be so obvious if we would collectively charge are worth.....and hold firm at some baseline{s}...IMHO


Man those plumbers are cheap there.:blink:


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## robnj772

HARRY304E said:


> Man those plumbers are cheap there.:blink:


I thought the same thing.


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## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> Just have a diagnostic fee, tell the client up front what that is, also tell them that once you discover what the problem is, you stop and give them a price to fix the problem before you do the work, if they object to the price of the repair, then you collect your diagnostic fee and leave.
> 
> People are much happier when they know what the grand total is up front.
> 
> If you tell them it will be T&M Your rates better be really low and they will not be happy because they will not know what the job will cost in the end.
> 
> T&M exposes your hourly rate and it had better be lower then what "THEY" make at their job because they think that someone else pays for all of your business costs and that you live in a homeless shelter and get fed in a soup kitchen....


Thanks, but that addresses _zero_ of what i said Harry.

Read what i wrote, then respond, not the opposite please :thumbsup:

~CS~


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## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> Thanks, but that addresses _zero_ of what i said Harry.
> 
> Read what i wrote, then respond, not the opposite please :thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah I know, but you could of hit the thanks button...:whistling2::laughing:


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## chicken steve

It's a little hard thanking posters who respond_ missing _the point Harry

~CS~


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## yrman

RGH said:


> That's what I thought...but Ho invited me back and asked me if I could beat the written quotes he has...he gave me their names...I called 1 of the other sparks that bid {we are friends} he confirmed as much....I decliend.....plumbers charge $80\hr and smile at you...we should be so obvious if we would collectively charge are worth.....and hold firm at some baseline{s}...IMHO


Wrong customer that's all. Keep moving on. While those guys are tied up on a no profit service change, you are free to spend time with quality customers. Not all customers only pick the lowest price provider. Avoid the bargain basement shoppers and realize that you won't be the right match for every customer. We try to weed that type out lest you begin to think they are all that way. They are just bad for your spirit. Blow them off and keep moving on with a positive attitude that you should be paid what you are worth. Anyone who doesn't recognize the value you offer is not worth wasting more time on. 

Electrical work is not a commodity product.


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## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> Thanks, but that addresses _zero_ of what i said Harry.
> 
> Read what i wrote, then respond, not the opposite please :thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


So basically you are wanting clarification of the tiered diagnostic that a lot of companies offer when troubleshooting a problem like "X amount of receptacles aren't working, I want them fixed", or "My lights are flickering when I turn the dishwasher on", etc? I mean, it doesn't really matter what any of these guys give for an explanation, because when it comes to flat rate, you don't want to be confused with facts, as your mind is so obviously made up on the subject. Your posts concerning flat rate service companies, and especially those who utilize ES-2, sound like you think they are the 2nd coming of Bernie Madoff or something. It's just a different way to skin the cat. I still, for some reason, believe that human nature makes most people honest individuals, so be they service techs that use a flat rate book or doing the same T&M, they aren't going to try to stiff the customer. Apparently you have so little faith in humanity that you just assume most people are out to screw other people, regardless of their actions. 

Honestly, I am actually intrigued at how the diagnostic portion of flat rate works. I know I have seen levels of diagnostics, but can't seem to recall how each level is determined. I assume the levels of diagnostics are linked to the amount of time the electrician has to be on site figuring out the problem, and that the price includes some amount allocated to the cost of repair.


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## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> Apparently you have so little faith in humanity that you just assume most people are out to screw other people, regardless of their actions.
> .


My misanthropism is an _earned _affliction Commando, _especially _peaked when i read backslappin' high 5's from advocates of iron clad doctrines _beyond_ refutation.

I make no apologies for slapping the rose colored glasses off them for the light of reality 

That said, i'll ask _yet again_.....

What happens when those _'EC's in training'_ drop the FR ball ?

Your _(et all) _serve sir....

~CS~


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## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> My misanthropism is an _earned _affliction Commando, _especially _peaked when i read backslappin' high 5's from advocates of iron clad doctrines _beyond_ refutation.
> 
> I make no apologies for slapping the rose colored glasses off them for the light of reality
> 
> That said, i'll ask _yet again_.....
> 
> *What happens when those 'EC's in training' drop the FR ball ?*
> 
> Your _(et all) _serve sir....
> 
> ~CS~


Could you please, rephrase the question sir? Little bit too cryptic, and not enough coffee to figure out what you mean by "dropping the FR ball".


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## chicken steve

I'm asking what happens when those FR #'s don't work out Commando

~CS~


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## rewire

chicken steve said:


> My misanthropism is an _earned _affliction Commando, _especially _peaked when i read backslappin' high 5's from advocates of iron clad doctrines _beyond_ refutation.
> 
> I make no apologies for slapping the rose colored glasses off them for the light of reality
> 
> That said, i'll ask _yet again_.....
> 
> What happens when those _'EC's in training'_ drop the FR ball ?
> 
> Your _(et all) _serve sir....
> 
> ~CS~


what happens is training. We have a weekly training where we present the invoices from the previous week and discuss how the Tech arrived at their final bill. By presenting the various scenarios the Techs encounter everyone learns how not to drop the FR ball. doing this aids each Tech with their atychiphobia .


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## chicken steve

Confidence does not grant one Xray eyes Rewire 

answer the q please :thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> Confidence does not grant one Xray eyes Rewire  answer the q please :thumbsup: ~CS~


Flat rate is based on the law of averages. Sooo, if adding a receptacle to a circuit is, say $299, and there ends up being a bunch of blocking and stuff in the way, and it takes way longer than expected, that cuts into profit. If it goes nice and easy, that adds to profit. It averages out, leaning towards the more profitable side, but sometimes they aren't going to make money and sometimes they will make a lot. If I give an estimate for a job, the same thing can happen. I can run into an obstacle that screws up my labor allocation and I end up not making any money. Sh*t happens! and you just have to roll with the punches. Unfortunately, we can't do all jobs t&m, and that's just how it is. I would love to have more customers call up and say "come do this", not ask how much it costs, and not b*tch when they get the bill. We have quite a few that are like that, and they are solid accounts, but most still want to know how much something is going to cost. It's awesome when I don't have to give an estimate, because obstacles just get rolled into the bill.


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## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> Flat rate is based on the law of averages. Sooo, if adding a receptacle to a circuit is, say $299, and there ends up being a bunch of blocking and stuff in the way, and it takes way longer than expected, that cuts into profit. If it goes nice and easy, that adds to profit. It averages out, leaning towards the more profitable side, but sometimes they aren't going to make money and sometimes they will make a lot. If I give an estimate for a job, the same thing can happen. I can run into an obstacle that screws up my labor allocation and I end up not making any money. Sh*t happens! and you just have to roll with the punches. Unfortunately, we can't do all jobs t&m, and that's just how it is. I would love to have more customers call up and say "come do this", not ask how much it costs, and not b*tch when they get the bill. We have quite a few that are like that, and they are solid accounts, but most still want to know how much something is going to cost. It's awesome when I don't have to give an estimate, because obstacles just get rolled into the bill.



FR is basically a contract or bid i.e-solid $ for small change work Commando

Estimates are_ 'my best guess'_ , i.e.-can change when flying monkeys appear , etc

These are two time honored distinctions that most of the public is aware of, and if any contractor plays it differently, is basically_ disingenous_


FR works well on the _knows_, which would include those that are diagnostically evident. It doesn't on the _unknowns_, or that which would not be diagnostically evident


The FR advocates , along with their software wishing to launch as many service trucks as Cleopatra did ships , want to address every possible electrical event , knows & unknows, and with fledgling Jmen at that

Their corporate beancounting masters _(some of which don't know an outlet from an omlet btw)_ grant them X amount of time for a_ 'diagnostic'_
They are provided with a menu that in turn allows them to provide the customer with a contractual FR for either the _'fix'_ or _'install'_ .

The installs are easy, the fixes are not.....

Do you really think that said beancounters haven't considered say , in the case of the_ 'fix' _, remuneration where the signed contract is blown by say 2X's the labor and/or materials ?

Do you employ contractual protectants? acts of God, AHJ, or _'dog ate my homework'_ , etc?

Would anyone like to post specifics on their win/loose contractual ratio here? Further, would anyone like to specifically designate losses to the experience _( years in field) _ _(do i hear a software update in the making?)_

If diagnostics are the crux of the debate, I think most of us can tell you the contractual _'law of averages_' from a seasoned EC's stance , and i'll bet most could opine on a fledgling EC in training batting average .

On that note, good luck Malone....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## robnj772

Once again chicken Steve ruins a good thread with unreadable gibberish .

That Vermont weed I am sure is to blame.


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## chicken steve

Haven't smoked weed since you wore short pants Rob

But i do pay attention, and i can be very detailed, as well as have a decent command of vernacular

Now if you want to debate a point, _any_ point, i'm in. You'll find my responses are usually in step with the posts here

If you want to ignore me, do so

But if you wish to post non sequiturs and ad hominems , you forfeit any viable standing , and join the ranks of hecklers

~CS~


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## robnj772

chicken steve said:


> Haven't smoked weed since you wore short pants Rob But i do pay attention, and i can be very detailed, as well as have a decent command of vernacular Now if you want to debate a point, any point, i'm in. You'll find my responses are usually in step with the posts here If you want to ignore me, do so But if you wish to post non sequiturs and ad hominems , you forfeit any viable standing , and join the ranks of hecklers ~CS~


Thanks for proving my point with another gibberish post


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## rewire

chicken steve said:


> Confidence does not grant one Xray eyes Rewire
> 
> answer the q please :thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


I answered your question you just did not like the answer. The goal is to mitigate the dropping of the FR ball by gaining knowledge of the various scenarios which are encountered and having this knowledge the need for X-Ray eyes becomes insignificant.


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## macmikeman

There have been times when I got lost in the complexities of the system and what I know that I know to the extent that it took me a way too damn long time troubleshooting something. And then it turns out the problem is actually located in the same spot where the homeowner pointed me at in the first place, but I loftily rejected that notion based on all my experience and vastly superior electrical know how. So, the resident of said dwelling made out like a bandit cause I flat rated a specified amount to diagnose the problem and it took way longer.


That is what prompted me to become an expert after 15-30 minutes at announcing I found the problem and it can only be removed and re-run at great cost to the owner, the thing has let all the magic smoke out and now is totally useless. I have me a Supco 500 and it shows '' BAD'' when operated a creative way on wiring. Homeowners are very astute. The know that BAD is bad when it comes to electrical wiring.......

By the way Steve, I'm hitting around 95% '' do it'' with that method, corrupt or not....


----------



## chicken steve

macmikeman said:


> By the way Steve, I'm hitting around 95% '' do it'' with that method, corrupt or not....


I would expect something close to that of an experienced man Mac :thumbsup:

And i do read the majority of FR success stories , at least here, from one or two man shops, and hey, go you!

Yet this is not universal, what is being preached is sending out _minimally _trained worker ants to _maximize_ profits via software

I've seen how this works in my local area, with those budding monopolies who've bought into it btw. 

~CS~


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> Yet this is not universal, what is being preached is sending out minimally trained worker ants to maximize profits via software
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Where did you get this from? 
Who exactly is preaching this? The Mr Sparky Mr Electric ESI Nexus all promote and encourage training. A well trai ed tech will produce larger tickets


----------



## 10492

HARRY304E said:


> Just have a diagnostic fee, tell the client up front what that is, also tell them that once you discover what the problem is, you stop and give them a price to fix the problem before you do the work, if they object to the price of the repair, then you collect your diagnostic fee and leave.
> 
> Good luck collecting a fee, if your proposed price to repair isn't close to what they perceive it should cost.
> 
> 
> People are much happier when they know what the grand total is up front.
> 
> 
> That's all fine and good, but that's not what your doing. They have no idea what the total is, until you find the problem, and then give them another proposal to actually fix the problem. And if you get that wrong, you have to give them yet another proposal to fix yet another problem....
> 
> If you tell them it will be T&M Your rates better be really low and they will not be happy because they will not know what the job will cost in the end.
> 
> Nonsense. Utter propaganda
> 
> 
> T&M exposes your hourly rate and it had better be lower then what "THEY" make at their job because they think that someone else pays for all of your business costs and that you live in a homeless shelter and get fed in a soup kitchen....
> 
> Again, nonsense.



Disclosure.

Harry's business plan works great if you have to find a brand new customer everyday, and you live around no-one within 100 miles who makes more than $15/hr.


----------



## T&K

It seems as if FR is something that only a multiple truck, multiple employee shop could really use to its advantage. Why would a one man show with/without a helper need to consult with a computer program (that he entered the info into) for something that he has done multiple times? And lets face it, if you are adding a receptacle in a business, there would have to be multiple scenarios for the simplest of tasks. i.e. drop ceiling? Sheetrock ceiling? Interior wall? Exterior wall? Interior insulated wall? Sheetrock walls and ceiling, foam insulation, etc. etc. etc... All considerable variables for the simplest of requests. My second question is for multiple service truck companies. do you have different hourly allotments for different trucks? Because let's face it, truck 1 has 2 good men in it, and truck 2 has the lazier guy with the new helper. Do they have a different program with different times for their level of boneheadedness? Seems to me flat rate would have a good baseline for "estimates" but a good customer knows the difference in an estimate and a quote, and a customer who wants a set price to add something with so many unknowns should be prepared to pay twice as much as the customer who wants to accept said risk and pay for the actual service knowing they don't have an electrician racing the clock.


----------



## HARRY304E

HARRY304E said:


> Just have a diagnostic fee, tell the client up front what that is, also tell them that once you discover what the problem is, you stop and give them a price to fix the problem before you do the work, if they object to the price of the repair, then you collect your diagnostic fee and leave.





Dnkldorf said:


> Good luck collecting a fee, if your proposed price to repair isn't close to what they perceive it should cost.


If they do not agree to pay the fee then the work will not be done by me.




HARRY304E said:


> People are much happier when they know what the grand total is up front.






Dnkldorf said:


> That's all fine and good, but that's not what your doing. They have no idea what the total is, until you find the problem, and then give them another proposal to actually fix the problem. And if you get that wrong, you have to give them yet another proposal to fix yet another problem...


If you get it wrong, then you're going to eat it because you already gave your word.



HARRY304E said:


> If you tell them it will be T&M Your rates better be really low and they will not be happy because they will not know what the job will cost in the end.





Dnkldorf said:


> Nonsense. Utter propaganda


Really?




HARRY304E said:


> T&M exposes your hourly rate and it had better be lower then what "THEY" make at their job because they think that someone else pays for all of your business costs and that you live in a homeless shelter and get fed in a soup kitchen....





Dnkldorf said:


> Again, nonsense.


Again, Really?



Dnkldorf said:


> Disclosure.
> 
> Harry's business plan works great if you have to find a brand new customer everyday, and you live around no-one within 100 miles who makes more than $15/hr.


Dnkldorf, You really do not know what my business plan is, I do quite well on the jobs I sell, and there are more than 6 million people around here.

From what you just composed it seems to me that your own business plan makes life for yourself much harder than it needs to be.


----------



## Mshow1323

I don't really understand the hang up with Flat Rate. In a backward, indirect sense, we T&M our jobs as well. The only difference is we use the law of averages. 

We figure out a salary we are willing to work for, add expenses, markup, and profit. Divide that by our possible yearly billable hours and we have our "hourly rate." Then we take a particular project, say a service change, figure the _average_ time it takes to complete, add material costs, and that gives us our total cost per project.

T&M guys tell their customers, "I charge this amount per man-hour, and it _should_ take this many man-hours, and this much in material cost. At the end I will give you your actual total cost." 

There are only a few differences. One, we use _averages_ based on experience to determine project labor hours. Where as you guys "ballpark" the time, which is really the same thing. A fast job will make us money, a slow job will cost us, but it all averages out. A fast or slow job, will net you guys the same, thus, there is no incentive for speed, expertise, or experience. Two, we hide our "hourly wage" into our price, where as you guys expose it. I find it hard to believe that any customer would accept an open ended contract that is being billed at $175 per man-hour. 

Realistically, the only difference in the two systems is exposure. I don't need my customers knowing what I, or my company actually earn per hour. You guys don't mind disclosing it. 

Both systems have there advantages. Our's makes the customer comfortable with how much the outcome of the project will cost. Your's makes the customer feel like they are getting exactly what they pay for, no more, no less. It's all a matter of perception. 

I however, don't like to get eyeballed while I take a phone call. I started my own business because I didn't like getting micromanaged by my boss. All T&M guys did was change the bosses name.

Obviously both systems work, but FR works better for me


----------



## HARRY304E

T&K said:


> It seems as if FR is something that only a multiple truck, multiple employee shop could really use to its advantage. Why would a one man show with/without a helper need to consult with a computer program (that he entered the info into) for something that he has done multiple times? And lets face it, if you are adding a receptacle in a business, there would have to be multiple scenarios for the simplest of tasks. i.e. drop ceiling? Sheetrock ceiling? Interior wall? Exterior wall? Interior insulated wall? Sheetrock walls and ceiling, foam insulation, etc. etc. etc... All considerable variables for the simplest of requests. My second question is for multiple service truck companies. do you have different hourly allotments for different trucks? Because let's face it, truck 1 has 2 good men in it, and truck 2 has the lazier guy with the new helper. Do they have a different program with different times for their level of boneheadedness? Seems to me flat rate would have a good baseline for "estimates" but a good customer knows the difference in an estimate and a quote, and a customer who wants a set price to add something with so many unknowns should be prepared to pay twice as much as the customer who wants to accept said risk and pay for the actual service knowing they don't have an electrician racing the clock.


There is no need to "race the clock" and anyone who does is a fool and will leave a huge trail of mistakes.

The only client you'll ever get that wants electricians racing the clock are GC's because they don't care about quality.


What is the difference between an estimate and a quote?:blink:

An estimate is,"This work will cost $54,987.03".

A quote is, "This work will cost $54,987.03".

Either way the client pays $54,987.03.

Right?

A one man shop or a thousand man shop can use Flat rate pricing software or they can scratch out estimates by hand on paper, either way the goal is to make a good living.

Using the software saves a chitload of time and cuts down on mistakes in pricing, and you can bang out a price on the spot in most cases and get the client to sign.

You guys can feel free to suck up all the clients that want item pricing with hourly rates, believe me, they're not worth the headache and losing all the profits.


----------



## Mshow1323

chicken steve said:


> Ask what the last generation of estimators did Switch.
> 
> For the most part, they all made a living w/o the wonders of the 'net
> 
> They also has a lot more going on upstairs , because they lacked the crutch of electronica that athropies it
> 
> I find it ironic that this forum has many times lamented the younger generations inability to make change w/o an electronic cash register providing the tally
> 
> Yet subscribe to what is basically the same tool estimating
> 
> ~CS~



You're certainly right, Flat Raters have it much easier now with software, than we did 20 years ago. But isn't that the whole idea? Why should I make the mistakes, other EC's have made, if I have the tools to avoid them? 20 years ago, if you wanted to FR you had two choices, learn from experience, or buy a book. A book is too cumbersome to lug around, and I don't have 25 years to develop my own systems for every conceivable circumstance. The difference is convenience, speed, and simplicity. What used to take 2 hours to put together a quote, now takes 15 minutes. That's a 1.5 hour savings, per project. Add that into all the project I don't get a contract for, and the time (cost) savings are exponential. 

Now multiple 1.5 hours X 5 days X 50 weeks X 30 years, and divide it by 24 hours. That's 468.75 days, I just saved myself by doing it with the wonders of the net.
The "programs" are literally a life enhancer.


----------



## Switched

Harry....Generally most people associate an estimate with a cost that can go up or down. So, I estimate that it will cost $xx.xx to repair the light. Now that cost could go up or down dependent upon how long it takes and what you run into.

A quote on the other hand is generally regarded as a fixed cost. It will not go up or down. It is what it is.

On the other hand, many people and dictionary's will interchange the definitions of both. 

Just tell them it is a "Fixed Cost" quote or estimate to remove the confusion.


----------



## HARRY304E

Switched said:


> Harry....Generally most people associate an estimate with a cost that can go up or down. So, I estimate that it will cost $xx.xx to repair the light. Now that cost could go up or down dependent upon how long it takes and what you run into.
> 
> A quote on the other hand is generally regarded as a fixed cost. It will not go up or down. It is what it is.
> 
> On the other hand, many people and dictionary's will interchange the definitions of both.
> 
> Just tell them it is a "Fixed Cost" quote or estimate to remove the confusion.


I just put down "Grand Total".:laughing:


----------



## T&K

HARRY304E said:


> There is no need to "race the clock" and anyone who does is a fool and will leave a huge trail of mistakes.
> 
> So if you have flat rated a job and have assumed that it will take you 2 hours, and you are 5 hours in, you aren't going to speed up??? Please...
> 
> The only client you'll ever get that wants electricians racing the clock are GC's because they don't care about quality.
> 
> There again, an across the board statement. I work for plenty of high end residential contractors who only care about quality. You get hung up with those guys and you turn in to those guys.
> What is the difference between an estimate and a quote?:blink:
> 
> An estimate is,"This work will cost $54,987.03".
> 
> A quote is, "This work will cost $54,987.03".
> 
> Either way the client pays $54,987.03.
> 
> Right?
> 
> Wrong. A quote is a flat rate that the customer is given. And that is what the customer pays, regardless of the amount of time you spend. An estimate is what you expect the job to cost, but neither party is held to it. The GC's I work for on high end residential expect to know an estimate, but unless the actual is going way over (for any reason) it is just that... An estimate. You are estimating when you flat rate.
> 
> A one man shop or a thousand man shop can use Flat rate pricing software or they can scratch out estimates by hand on paper, either way the goal is to make a good living.
> 
> I agree totally. If you have to add in variables to the computer program, isn't that the same as just writing them down. Seems to me all it is is a fancy calculator.
> 
> Using the software saves a chitload of time and cuts down on mistakes in pricing, and you can bang out a price on the spot in most cases and get the client to sign.
> 
> I can bang out a price on the spot also. I do it on a daily basis.
> 
> You guys can feel free to suck up all the clients that want item pricing with hourly rates, believe me, they're not worth the headache and losing all the profits.


Just so you know... I do 95% flat rate pricing. I just don't need a computer program to go back and look at for a service change, generator install, or new construction residential. I totally agree that T&M makes no money. (Look back at my earlier post in this thread) I'm weighing in on this subject simply because its a debatable subject, and the debate had shifted to "if you don't use a software program to run your business, you're an idiot" sounds like this software is a tool that is used by some people, and not used by others. I think I have seen this same debate about the new Milwaukee m12 cable cutter.


----------



## T&K

Sorry, didn't do the multiple quote thing right harry, I inserted my answers in your quote in my previous post.


----------



## T&K

For the record, I'm all for someone using whatever they need to make sure they make a good living being self employed, because let's face it. If we all made really really good money on every job, and we all got accustomed to it, we wouldn't have to worry about bidding against someone who was comfortable with just making $30 an hour to be self employed with all the bs to go with it.


----------



## Switched

T&K said:


> Just so you know... I do 95% flat rate pricing. I just don't need a computer program to go back and look at for a service change, generator install, or new construction residential. I totally agree that T&M makes no money. (Look back at my earlier post in this thread) I'm weighing in on this subject simply because its a debatable subject, and the debate had shifted to "if you don't use a software program to run your business, you're an idiot" sounds like this software is a tool that is used by some people, and not used by others. I think I have seen this same debate about the new Milwaukee m12 cable cutter.


I think that most of us could probably ball park jobs just off the top of our head and make money, not all of us of course, but with experience you can. 

One of the things that I personally enjoy about a program like ES2 vs. a FR book or paper, is the paper trail accessibility. When you are a one man shop, it might be easy to keep track of everything on paper, but as you grow, it creates more work, and becomes more difficult to keep track of everything. Impossible, no, but nonetheless more difficult.

I can go to any job we have done for the last 2-2-1/2 years and with the push of a button pull up all that customers information. What was done, what quotes were given, who performed the work, etc....If a guy quits while, I still have everything they have done up to that point recorded, no missing paperwork to worry about, as far as the job is concerned.

Yes, it is a crutch. A crutch however is a tool. A tool is something that has been designed to make a job easier. It does not perform the job for you, the tool has to be mastered. Once you master the tool, then you get to reap the benefits associated with using that tool. Why not use something that makes your job easier?

The problem that a lot of guys have with FR is not FR, but rather with a particular company, owner, or some group. The system and the software is not the problem. However, the ethics of certain businesses, business owners, and employees can be. Don't mistake one for the other, they are two separate issues.


----------



## Mshow1323

Switched said:


> Yes, it is a crutch. A crutch however is a tool. A tool is something that has been designed to make a job easier. It does not perform the job for you, the tool has to be mastered. Once you master the tool, then you get to reap the benefits associated with using that tool. Why not use something that makes your job easier?


X2 :thumbsup:


----------



## macmikeman

Here is my one and only one problem with using flat rate software. It goes like this; When I need to use the calculator on my mobile devices or desktop, I do not need to log in and wait for some server connection to begin to find the square root of 9..... 

In regards to processing payment thru the some program, however at that point a screen change and an increased security level with passwords and login's and the like, well yeah that I understand. 

Otherwise, I stand with the crowd who see's the usefulness of having a pocket guide crafted together to help speed up and guide the user thru to a profitable ending while eliminating the tendency to under figure the actual time or material to complete the task at hand.

To each his own, but using makes me go faster, (loggin hassle excepted...)


----------



## Switched

macmikeman said:


> Here is my one and only one problem with using flat rate software. It goes like this; When I need to use the calculator on my mobile devices or desktop, I do not need to log in and wait for some server connection to begin to find the square root of 9.....
> 
> In regards to processing payment thru the some program, however at that point a screen change and an increased security level with passwords and login's and the like, well yeah that I understand.
> 
> Otherwise, I stand with the crowd who see's the usefulness of having a pocket guide crafted together to help speed up and guide the user thru to a profitable ending while eliminating the tendency to under figure the actual time or material to complete the task at hand.
> 
> To each his own, but using makes me go faster, (loggin hassle excepted...)


Your also supposed to inform us of the weather there today, as well as how many bikini clad women you are watching from the beach house you are currently wiring......Remember, pics or it didn't happen!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## FrunkSlammer

I had trouble yesterday in a customer's condo unit and lack of cell signal.. made things awkward. Had to stand at the door with my phone up high in the air just to get a good enough signal.

It's the first time, but I'm sure it's not the last. Gotta figure something out.


----------



## macmikeman

Switched said:


> Your also supposed to inform us of the weather there today, as well as how many bikini clad women you are watching from the beach house you are currently wiring......Remember, pics or it didn't happen!:laughing::laughing:


It did happen. Whether or not your you can believe without seeing first is the crux of all faith......


----------



## Mshow1323

FrunkSlammer said:


> I had trouble yesterday in a customer's condo unit and lack of cell signal.. made things awkward. Had to stand at the door with my phone up high in the air just to get a good enough signal.
> 
> It's the first time, but I'm sure it's not the last. Gotta figure something out.


If only there was a program that you could use off-line without sacrificing its user ability.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Mshow1323 said:


> If only there was a program that you could use off-line without sacrificing its user ability.


I use Freshbooks right now for all my estimating, invoicing, expenses, time tracking for projects, customer database and tax collection. It requires an internet connection to use.. which _now_ is annoying. I wish more data was stored local.

Is there something you know of that does similar tasks, but can work offline?


----------



## macmikeman

Mshow1323 said:


> If only there was a program that you could use off-line without sacrificing its user ability.


Even at that you still get the endless circle of splash screen at startup coupled with the limitations of IOS that lts the thing go to sleep and screw you thru the wake up routine again. 

macbook air has solved 99% of my woe, you youngsters can have your Ipads and your teeny screen phones.......

Nothing but nothing irritates me more than hardware hangups in front of my customers. I blame IOS and underlying IDE , and developer paranoia for most of that... Kinda lets all the air out of your tires right in front of the audience of your grand performance. 

Good thing my Supco 500 comes on when I hit the power button.........


----------



## robnj772

Dnkldorf said:


> Disclosure. Harry's business plan works great if you have to find a brand new customer everyday, and you live around no-one within 100 miles who makes more than $15/hr.


How the hell are you still in business?


----------



## yrman

We have our prices on an excel spreadsheet that we can refer to if needed. We also still have some nice books we made too. Same info just looks nicer. Now everything is uploaded in our software bur if there is a connection problem the guys can still get a price.

As for all the different scenarios and multi-day jobs where we will be in one place all day and not driving from place to place we have price grids which are based on T &M.

Guy looks at a project and estimates 3 hours of hands on labor $100 in material, he goes down the column to 3 hrs and across the row to $100 for material. Box where those values intersect = price.
Or if its a multi day job there is a grid with days down the column and materials across the top. Its a day rate based on 80% efficiency not hourly at 40%. 

Electrician quotes "instal blah blah blah, run blah circuit from blah to blah, includes this that and the other" total price $5,674,937
Materials, labor and taxes included. 

Software is great but its not the only way. FR is just T/M quoted in advance with overhead and non productive time factored in. It doesn't matter if you pull that price from your head, your butt, a book, spreadsheet or software program. Most owners or one man shops can pull the numbers from their head. The rest are tools for showing to the customer or helping someone else price consistently.


----------



## Mshow1323

FrunkSlammer said:


> I use Freshbooks right now for all my estimating, invoicing, expenses, time tracking for projects, customer database and tax collection. It requires an internet connection to use.. which _now_ is annoying. I wish more data was stored local.
> 
> Is there something you know of that does similar tasks, but can work offline?



You can send ES2 offline, before you get to the job. Do all you estimating, input new customers, yada, yada, yada, then bring ES2 back online and it will force all that information onto the cloud and into your software. You just factor in , rates (overhead included) and taxes, and it spits out you avg. labor hours based on your tasks. 

I like being _live_ while I'm at a project, so I switched to an cell data plan with my iPad, but working with it offline works well too. 

Like Macmikeman said, the desktop version works a little faster and smoother, but the iPad version, imo, looks more technically advanced and professional.


----------



## chicken steve

You folks with all the fancy gizmo's remind me of the hunters with the biggest knife

It's ain't jack if there's nothing going on above the neck....

~CS~


----------



## Mshow1323

You can have your knives and campfires...I'll stick with my ovens, grills, and grocery stores.


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> You folks with all the fancy gizmo's remind me of the hunters with the biggest knife
> 
> It's ain't jack if there's nothing going on above the neck....
> 
> ~CS~


Steve's still installing knob & tube. The rest of us are installing romex.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

That's because i live in K&T central 120

That said, would any of you care to send out your fledging Jman & spankin' new software to FR against me on a K&T job?:whistling2::thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

yrman said:


> We have our prices on an excel spreadsheet that we can refer to if needed. We also still have some nice books we made too. Same info just looks nicer. Now everything is uploaded in our software bur if there is a connection problem the guys can still get a price.
> 
> As for all the different scenarios and multi-day jobs where we will be in one place all day and not driving from place to place we have price grids which are based on T &M.
> 
> Guy looks at a project and estimates 3 hours of hands on labor $100 in material, he goes down the column to 3 hrs and across the row to $100 for material. Box where those values intersect = price.
> Or if its a multi day job there is a grid with days down the column and materials across the top. Its a day rate based on 80% efficiency not hourly at 40%.
> 
> Electrician quotes "instal blah blah blah, run blah circuit from blah to blah, includes this that and the other" total price $5,674,937
> Materials, labor and taxes included.
> 
> Software is great but its not the only way. FR is just T/M quoted in advance with overhead and non productive time factored in. It doesn't matter if you pull that price from your head, your butt, a book, spreadsheet or software program. Most owners or one man shops can pull the numbers from their head. The rest are tools for showing to the customer or helping someone else price consistently.



Very eloquently stated. That sums it up perfectly.


----------



## Mshow1323

chicken steve said:


> That's because i live in K&T central 120
> 
> That said, would any of you care to send out your fledging Jman & spankin' new software to FR against me on a K&T job?:whistling2::thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


We do. Every day. We win some, lose some, just like you do. 

The point is, there is more than one way to skin a cat. What works for you doesn't necessarily work for me, and vice versa. You're using your tools of disposal, your experience, and I use a different tool. I just choose not to spend years learning every conceivable task involved on the job. It takes too long for me to game plan on a certain aspect of the job I have no experience in. I choose to use other people experiences to help me. 
Different tools, same job. Which is exactly the arguement you used in your knife analogy.


----------



## chicken steve

Yet misses a key element

Those noobs who drop the FR ball aren't simply _'sent to more training'_

The company , seeking a check before dispatch, will often impose nefarious _'charges'_ over and above the original FR agreement, engineered to take up the slack....

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> We do. Every day. We win some, lose some, just like you do.
> 
> The point is, there is more than one way to skin a cat. What works for you doesn't necessarily work for me, and vice versa. You're using your tools of disposal, your experience, and I use a different tool. I just choose not to spend years learning every conceivable task involved on the job. It takes too long for me to game plan on a certain aspect of the job I have no experience in. I choose to use other people experiences to help me.
> Different tools, same job. Which is exactly the arguement you used in your knife analogy.



My stance isn't, nor has never been against FR Mshow

My position is the _predators_ wish to peddle it to any skill level in any given situation

Trust me, it's all in their back pocket, a proverbial EC training camp that'l be trotting it's way to their door when the noobs open theirs

just like YOU did, eh?:whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

T&K said:


> Sorry, didn't do the multiple quote thing right harry, I inserted my answers in your quote in my previous post.


No problem, but it took a little surgery..:laughing: 


HARRY304E said:


> There is no need to "race the clock" and anyone who does is a fool and will leave a huge trail of mistakes.





T&K said:


> So if you have flat rated a job and have assumed that it will take you 2 hours, and you are 5 hours in, you aren't going to speed up??? Please...


No, because speeding up, leads to making mistakes that will cost even more at the end, sometimes it happens, rushing around will not get the work done properly, you have to keep your cool and make it look good in front of the client, on occasion the client will tip you when this stuff happens.

It would be great if they do it all the time...:laughing: 



HARRY304E said:


> The only client you'll ever get that wants electricians racing the clock are GC's because they don't care about quality.





T&K said:


> There again, an across the board statement. I work for plenty of high end residential contractors who only care about quality. You get hung up with those guys and you turn in to those guys.


I have a few them too, but to many of them have no respect for the other trades.

Most of the GC's around here have no code of honor and can't even keep their word, and try to cut you down on the contract in the middle of the job hoping that you do not have a good attorney that fix their butts when they try to pull that crap. 



HARRY304E said:


> What is the difference between an estimate and a quote?:blink:
> 
> An estimate is,"This work will cost $54,987.03".
> 
> A quote is, "This work will cost $54,987.03".
> 
> Either way the client pays $54,987.03.
> 
> Right?





T&K said:


> Wrong. A quote is a flat rate that the customer is given. And that is what the customer pays, regardless of the amount of time you spend. An estimate is what you expect the job to cost, but neither party is held to it. The GC's I work for on high end residential expect to know an estimate, but unless the actual is going way over (for any reason) it is just that... An estimate. You are estimating when you flat rate.


When I give an estimate, that is the price the client pays.

If anything needs to be added to the total, then a new estimate will be given and signed for before it gets done, that is the way I do it otherwise there will be a big fight at the end of the job.



HARRY304E said:


> A one man shop or a thousand man shop can use Flat rate pricing software or they can scratch out estimates by hand on paper, either way the goal is to make a good living.





T&K said:


> I agree totally. If you have to add in variables to the computer program, isn't that the same as just writing them down. Seems to me all it is is a fancy calculator.


Yes, but it's much faster then on paper.

The program it's self gets updated by the the crew that works on it everyday ,that is the service we are paying for, also each member has a say in what goes into the system. 



HARRY304E said:


> Using the software saves a chitload of time and cuts down on mistakes in pricing, and you can bang out a price on the spot in most cases and get the client to sign.





T&K said:


> I can bang out a price on the spot also. I do it on a daily basis.


Typing is much better than penmanship, and it's readable too..:laughing:



HARRY304E said:


> You guys can feel free to suck up all the clients that want item pricing with hourly rates, believe me, they're not worth the headache and losing all the profits.





T&K said:


> Just so you know... I do 95% flat rate pricing. I just don't need a computer program to go back and look at for a service change, generator install, or new construction residential. I totally agree that T&M makes no money. (Look back at my earlier post in this thread) I'm weighing in on this subject simply because its a debatable subject, and the debate had shifted to "if you don't use a software program to run your business, you're an idiot" sounds like this software is a tool that is used by some people, and not used by others. I think I have seen this same debate about the new Milwaukee m12 cable cutter.


You're an idiot dam it!:laughing:

Just kidding bro..:laughing:

I'm not sure how you see it like that, You run your business your way, if you price your jobs out on paper and your happy with it that's great, I did it the same way just a couple of years ago and still do it now sometimes it all depends on what I'm looking at, I have found I make out much better since I started using the software, before I ever was on the forums I was doing flat rate without ever reading about it, I simply called it "Grand total pricing,"when I started doing it that way I found I was able to make much more per hour than when I did T&M, so I stopped offering hourly rates and learned to keep the conversation away from hourly rates when making sales.

Using this software has helped me make more in less time and learn more about pricing and sales than I ever could have gotten by going to some estimators school, We are all learn fast together everyday, money well spent in my opinion.

That does not mean that you must do it, you should do what makes you most comfortable...:thumbsup:


----------



## robnj772

chicken steve said:


> You folks with all the fancy gizmo's remind me of the hunters with the biggest knife It's ain't jack if there's nothing going on above the neck.... ~CS~


And you remind me of the kid who took too much acid in high school


----------



## Mshow1323

robnj772 said:


> And you remind me of the kid who took too much acid in high school


Steve and I may not see eye to eye on business philosophy, but I don't believe we were slinging mud at each other. 

Thanks for your input.


----------



## T&K

That does not mean that you must do it, you should do what makes you most comfortable...:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I'm for that. Just out of curiosity, what does FR software cost?


----------



## HARRY304E

T&K said:


> That does not mean that you must do it, you should do what makes you most comfortable...:thumbsup:


Exactly. I'm for that. Just out of curiosity, what does FR software cost?[/QUOTE]

$99 a month http://www.electricalflatrate.com/index.php/order-now/es2?view=application

No contract..:thumbsup:


----------



## chicken steve

> HARRY304E said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I'm for that. Just out of curiosity, what does FR software cost?
> 
> 
> 
> $99 a month http://www.electricalflatrate.com/index.php/order-now/es2?view=application
> 
> No contract..:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

$99 a mo, until they convince you THEY can manage your biz better than YOU can Harry.......:whistling2:








> Originally Posted by T&K View Post
> Wrong. A quote is a flat rate that the customer is given. And that is what the customer pays, regardless of the amount of time you spend. An estimate is what you expect the job to cost, but neither party is held to it. The GC's I work for on high end residential expect to know an estimate, but unless the actual is going way over (for any reason) it is just that... An estimate. You are estimating when you flat rate.





> When I give an estimate, that is the price the client pays.
> 
> If anything needs to be added to the total, then a new estimate will be given and signed for before it gets done, that is the way I do it otherwise there will be a big fight at the end of the job.


You're obviously confused on what the term* 'estimate'* means Harry

This would probably indicate you're also confused on what FR means

I rest my case

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> $99 a mo, until they convince you THEY can manage your biz better than YOU can Harry.......:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're obviously confused on what the term* 'estimate'* means Harry
> 
> This would probably indicate you're also confused on what FR means
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> ~CS~


I'm not confused about anything....:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

Perhaps you'd care to join the sematical shenanigans here Harry? :whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


~CS~


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Has anybody out there tried ES2 for the month, and just ran through a few hundred of the more common tasks and saved them to spreadsheet and then cancelled ES2? 

I like the idea of flat rate and do it now... but I don't care for the idea of paying $100/mo forever, just to have some company tell me how much I should be charging. I'd rather keep plugging in my own flat rates into Freshbooks and keep using that for everything.


----------



## macmikeman

Filemaker. 


But , (there always seems to be a but...) This new html5 and css3 is gonna blow that out of the water as well, since it makes for any platform you can think of.
Were I younger I would be all over learning html5 and css3


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> Perhaps you'd care to join the sematical shenanigans here Harry? :whistling2::thumbup::laughing:
> 
> 
> ~CS~


You have made several claims without and substantiation. when you are asked as I did to provide the source for your claims you simply ignore the request and continue to beat the drum of ignorance.


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Just funny that ES2 flat rate software doesn't even charge a flat rate, they charge time and material! $99/mo

Guess they know they won't get the job if they bid it at $6000.. ($99 @ 60 months) but they know they can squeeze you for a lifetime of addiction and make waaaay more money.


----------



## chicken steve

rewire said:


> You have made several claims without and substantiation. when you are asked as I did to provide the source for your claims you simply ignore the request and continue to beat the drum of ignorance.


The silence _and _confusion of FR advocates here substantiates my stance rewire.

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

FrunkSlammer said:


> Just funny that ES2 flat rate software doesn't even charge a flat rate, they charge time and material! $99/mo
> 
> Guess they know they won't get the job if they bid it at $6000.. ($99 @ 60 months) but they know they can squeeze you for a lifetime of addiction and make waaaay more money.


Great gig, if you can get it Frunk

~CS~


----------



## FrunkSlammer

Seriously must be!

I think people can make money off both FR and T&M and both can lose money on FR and T&M.

I just like flat rate because it takes the pressure off me to work fast and have owners watching me and tracking my time. Plus the "sticker shock" is dealt with before the work even begins, when I'm in the power position, instead of at the end when I'm desperate to get paid and they want to go over and over the bill.

Flat rate is great for some people, not everyone. 

And they all lived happily ever after. The end.


----------



## macmikeman

FrunkSlammer said:


> Seriously must be!
> 
> I think people can make money off both FR and T&M and both can lose money on FR and T&M.
> 
> I just like flat rate because it takes the pressure off me to work fast and have owners watching me and tracking my time. Plus the "sticker shock" is dealt with before the work even begins, when I'm in the power position, instead of at the end when I'm desperate to get paid and they want to go over and over the bill.
> 
> Flat rate is great for some people, not everyone.
> 
> And they all lived happily ever after. The end.



All of em except for Chicken Steve who became bitter and jealous of other's success due to risk taking that he was unable to attempt due to fear of it actually working.


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> The silence and confusion of FR advocates here substantiates my stance rewire.
> 
> ~CS~


Your ignorance falls on no one but yourself.
Your have nothing to offer but unsubstantiated opinion while those who actually use FR are attepting to gain you edification.


----------



## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> That's because i live in K&T central 120
> 
> That said, would any of you care to send out your fledging Jman & spankin' new software to FR against me on a K&T job?:whistling2::thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


Soooo, only old people should be doing estimates? I am 25, and do k&t rewire estimates all the time, and actually I do the brunt of the estimates. I am already working on adding some FR stuff just to have for quickie jobs, and if the phone was ringing enough I would shell out the money for ES-2 just to save me the hassle. Why do you hate things being easier? Sounds like you are more afraid of technology than anything else.

Also, just about every larger EC uses estimating software. That software is loaded with pre-priced assemblies that include labor units. Heck, I was trained to estimate on ConEst Intellibid, which is $5000/year software. How is that any different than a one man show using ES-2 for their pricing on small jobs? I really don't understand the hangup, and your assumptions that these guys are kicking out freshie journeymen to do all the pricing/guessing. Even if they were, how else do you learn? It's not like you, Steve, were born with an innate gift to properly estimate jobs. You learned from trial and error, and figuring out labor units for certain tasks in your head.


----------



## chicken steve

I do hail from before these infernal devices Commando, but i'm far from being a luddite.

In fact, we run an almost paperless biz, save for those dinosaurs that didn't wish to sign onto the computer age

And age has little to do with the price of poker in any bid arena , save for the fact a prospective customer might buy you before me, the dumpy old guy, because you _look like _you'll move your azz faster

That said, gimme a spankin' new Jman with whatever software s/he thinks is the cat's pajamas to FR_ (or whatever bs term is in vouge) _against, and i'll show you how age's acquired treachery can rip it a new one

~CS~


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> I do hail from before these infernal devices Commando, but i'm far from being a luddite.
> 
> In fact, we run an almost paperless biz, save for those dinosaurs that didn't wish to sign onto the computer age
> 
> And age has little to do with the price of poker in any bid arena , save for the fact a prospective customer might buy you before me, the dumpy old guy, because you look like you'll move your azz faster
> 
> That said, gimme a spankin' new Jman with whatever software s/he thinks is the cat's pajamas to FR (or whatever bs term is in vouge) against, and i'll show you how age's acquired treachery can rip it a new one
> 
> ~CS~


You use a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing


----------



## drspec

rewire said:


> You use a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing


I think the same can be said for a lot of people here


----------



## chicken steve

And you can continue to be intimidated, or aspire to be well thought and written yourself rewire....:thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

I'm happy using FR software. One of the best business decisions I've made.


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> And you can continue to be intimidated, or aspire to be well thought and written yourself rewire....:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


I have no Intimidation of someone who veils their ignorance behind a mask of attempted eloquence


----------



## robnj772

chicken steve said:


> I do hail from before these infernal devices Commando, but i'm far from being a luddite. In fact, we run an almost paperless biz, save for those dinosaurs that didn't wish to sign onto the computer age And age has little to do with the price of poker in any bid arena , save for the fact a prospective customer might buy you before me, the dumpy old guy, because you look like you'll move your azz faster That said, gimme a spankin' new Jman with whatever software s/he thinks is the cat's pajamas to FR (or whatever bs term is in vouge) against, and i'll show you how age's acquired treachery can rip it a new one ~CS~


 ......


----------



## jza

chicken steve said:


> I do hail from before these infernal devices Commando, but i'm far from being a luddite.
> 
> In fact, we run an almost paperless biz, save for those dinosaurs that didn't wish to sign onto the computer age
> 
> And age has little to do with the price of poker in any bid arena , save for the fact a prospective customer might buy you before me, the dumpy old guy, because you _look like _you'll move your azz faster
> 
> That said, gimme a spankin' new Jman with whatever software s/he thinks is the cat's pajamas to FR_ (or whatever bs term is in vouge) _against, and i'll show you how age's acquired treachery can rip it a new one
> 
> ~CS~


Dude... just stop...


----------



## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> I do hail from before these infernal devices Commando, but i'm far from being a luddite.
> 
> In fact, we run an almost paperless biz, save for those dinosaurs that didn't wish to sign onto the computer age
> 
> And age has little to do with the price of poker in any bid arena , save for the fact a prospective customer might buy you before me, the dumpy old guy, because you _look like _you'll move your azz faster
> 
> That said, gimme a spankin' new Jman with whatever software s/he thinks is the cat's pajamas to FR_ (or whatever bs term is in vouge) _against, and i'll show you how age's acquired treachery can rip it a new one
> 
> ~CS~


So basically, your whole argument is that you are old and have been estimating a long time, and that all FR companies only have greenhorn service electricians? I think Rob is right, you are burned out as phuck and are losing your mind. You are stroking with an awful large brush, with 0 proof to back it up with, and are acting like you are winning a argument. Basically, all the usual FR proponents are sick of trying to have discussions with your drunken gibberish, and I just happen to be bored enough to attempt to. You actually don't have any kind of argument against whether flat rate pricing strategies are good, profitable, etc. you have no real argument against ES2 either, other than you imagine the owner is some evil guy trying to take over the service world, or some other kookie horse hockey. You have this imagined boogie man in your head with hundreds of service trucks with freshie j-men and apprentices randomly pulling prices out of an iPad or book and stealing all the work from you, the lone protagonist against the bourgeoise flat raters. Maybe people would take you seriously of you stopped the drunken ramblings and actually made a point, as you didn't answer a single one of my questions in any of my previous posts in this thread.


----------



## macmikeman

Lordy I love a good smackdown.


----------



## yrman

Going_Commando said:


> So basically, your whole argument is that you are old and have been estimating a long time, and that all FR companies only have greenhorn service electricians? I think Rob is right, you are burned out as phuck and are losing your mind. You are stroking with an awful large brush, with 0 proof to back it up with, and are acting like you are winning a argument. Basically, all the usual FR proponents are sick of trying to have discussions with your drunken gibberish, and I just happen to be bored enough to attempt to. You actually don't have any kind of argument against whether flat rate pricing strategies are good, profitable, etc. you have no real argument against ES2 either, other than you imagine the owner is some evil guy trying to take over the service world, or some other kookie horse hockey. You have this imagined boogie man in your head with hundreds of service trucks with freshie j-men and apprentices randomly pulling prices out of an iPad or book and stealing all the work from you, the lone protagonist against the bourgeoise flat raters. Maybe people would take you seriously of you stopped the drunken ramblings and actually made a point, as you didn't answer a single one of my questions in any of my previous posts in this thread.


But GC, Its a CULT doncha know. 
A bunch of can't do losers trying to take over the universe by sucking in all the naive idiots desperately searching searching searching searching for new or better ways...bunch a naive morons I tell ya.


----------



## sbrn33

I would like to try it but I am chicken.


----------



## flyboy

sbrn33 said:


> I would like to try it but I am chicken.


Try what?


----------



## nrp3

Ok, lets apply this to something I am working on this weekend. I buy into the idea of being able to set the price to set the hook so to speak. Doing a small business expo this weekend. I typically like to visit people's homes to sell the correct size generator, location load shedding etc. Maybe something I could use to price the smaller sized units, 8-10kw with limited or no load shedding?


----------



## sbrn33

flyboy said:


> Try what?


electricalflat rate


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

I wonder what the FR would be if a HO complained of an AFCI tripping?

Once it held would they have a years worth of warranty?


----------



## Switched

sbrn33 said:


> electricalflat rate


What about it makes you scared?


----------



## flyboy

sbrn33 said:


> electricalflat rate


I started using a flat rate book in the year you started your business. 1994.

...don't be scared, it works.


----------



## HARRY304E

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I wonder what the FR would be if a HO complained of an AFCI tripping?
> 
> Once it held would they have a years worth of warranty?


There's no warranty on tripping breakers...:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

HARRY304E said:


> There's no warranty on tripping breakers...:laughing::laughing:


How about bad wiring?


----------



## HARRY304E

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> How about bad wiring?


I've never been called back for that,,,,,,,,Yet..:whistling2:


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

I get a lot of troubleshooting calls, sometimes after others have thrown their hands in the air and gave up.

A steady diet of that could loose big bucks on FR.


----------



## Switched

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I get a lot of troubleshooting calls, sometimes after others have thrown their hands in the air and gave up.
> 
> A steady diet of that could loose big bucks on FR.


We get a lot of the same, and are not loosing money. Cool thing is, after they have had 2-3 companies out there that couldn't solve it, and we do, we now have a client for life!


----------



## HARRY304E

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I get a lot of troubleshooting calls, sometimes after others have thrown their hands in the air and gave up.
> 
> A steady diet of that could loose big bucks on FR.


FR is an average time to fix problems like that, once you know what the problem is, then you can price the repair before you do it, get the approval.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

HARRY304E said:


> FR is an average time to fix problems like that, once you know what the problem is, then you can price the repair before you do it, get the approval.


True, but if you have long circuit that trips an AFCI you could spend hours to find a bad section of wire, replacing a section of wire could be as fast as one hour.

If very many HO's have gone through every EC in the phone book before you get a crack at them, you could loose your shirt, PDQ. 

I saw this in Radio/TV repair, which turned out to be a nightmare at FR.


----------



## sctracker

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> True, but if you have long circuit that trips an AFCI you could spend hours to find a bad section of wire, replacing a section of wire could be as fast as one hour.
> 
> If very many HO's have gone through every EC in the phone book before you get a crack at them, you could loose your shirt, PDQ.
> 
> I saw this in Radio/TV repair, which turned out to be a nightmare at FR.


Yes but on the other side of the coin sometimes your going to go do a troubleshooting job, and by using your experience guess its going to take x amount of hours and it ends up only taking 5 minutes. Flat rate works on averages. 9/10 jobs your going to do well on, probably better than if you had done it T+M, so hopefully when that 10th job rolls around you have enough profit made to cover that expense.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

sctracker said:


> Yes but on the other side of the coin sometimes your going to go do a troubleshooting job, and by using your experience guess its going to take x amount of hours and it ends up only taking 5 minutes. Flat rate works on averages. 9/10 jobs your going to do well on, probably better than if you had done it T+M, so hopefully when that 10th job rolls around you have enough profit made to cover that expense.


So true. I have a flat rate of $249 to troubleshoot. 9/10 I'm in and out in 15-30 min, sometimes with a bigger job. But like the other day I got called and it was a loose neutral. I spent 1.5 hours and couldn't find it. Gave the customer a level 2 troubleshoot price of $789 or rewire the the whole circuit for $4500. Waiting to hear back.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

FranklinsApprentice said:


> So true. I have a flat rate of $249 to troubleshoot. 9/10 I'm in and out in 15-30 min, sometimes with a bigger job. But like the other day I got called and it was a loose neutral. I spent 1.5 hours and couldn't find it. Gave the customer a level 2 troubleshoot price of $789 or rewire the the whole circuit for $4500. Waiting to hear back.


I couldn't even fathom charging those kinda prices. So you charged 249 and couldn't fix the problem, I can kinda understand giving a rewiring price but to charge additional money for more troubleshooting???


----------



## chicken steve

Interesting, so what do your particular TS levels include Franklin?

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff

RGH said:


> I made my own flat rate system. Refining it all the time assemble type systems fully burdened labor then gang up assembly's to fill task. Most resi is terribly redundant. Only variable is situation then I x up factions by. 25hr for difficulties.


How many hours of work do you think you put into this?


----------



## chicken steve

How does one bum noodle equate to a $4500 rewire? :001_huh:

How big is this _'circuit'_?

~CS~


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

chicken steve said:


> How does one bum noodle equate to a $4500 rewire? :001_huh:
> 
> How big is this 'circuit'?
> 
> ~CS~


My thoughts exactly. I think he'll be waiting awhile for that call back.


----------



## nrp3

I think we have to consider where some of us live in this equation. I am guessing some of these prices are in relation to expensive places to live. I have a friend from college whose parents live in Chatham. Big dollar area, some of this is relative.


----------



## yrman

FranklinsApprentice said:


> So true. I have a flat rate of $249 to troubleshoot. 9/10 I'm in and out in 15-30 min, sometimes with a bigger job. But like the other day I got called and it was a loose neutral. I spent 1.5 hours and couldn't find it. Gave the customer a level 2 troubleshoot price of $789 or rewire the the whole circuit for $4500. Waiting to hear back.


These situations are hard. We clarify in our diagnostic charge that it includes one minor repair in an accessible location. Once you know the problem is in an inaccessible location like behind a wall or buried somewhere you HAVE diagnosed the issue. "mr customer, you have loose neutral in an inaccessible location". Then quote to work around or to locate a fault in an inaccessible location. The key is to clearly explain up front.


----------



## RGH

Idk how many hours. I was very lucky years ago 25 maybe I was trained to estimate mil-spec dod work. Honestly resi is very simple 80percent of it is redundant . Learn to gang assemblies etc switch legs and price accordingly. You all can price a full service change in 5 mins what's harder than that in a resi setting. Food for thought.


----------



## pete87

Franklin Man


Locate a fault ? Heck , if its that f-ed up i spend little time on it and rewire .

$4500 hmmm , thats got to be a 20A ressi right ?



Pete


----------



## 10492

FranklinsApprentice said:


> I spent 1.5 hours and couldn't find it. Gave the customer a level 2 troubleshoot price of $789


A level 2 troubleshoot?:laughing:

What's level 3, demolish the house and start over?

:laughing::laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> These situations are hard.
> 
> 
> 
> K&T, BX, the list can be rather extensive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We clarify in our diagnostic charge that it includes one minor repair in an accessible location.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And if that's the entire repair, you'll bill accordingly? For instance, tripped breaker ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once you know the problem is in an inaccessible location like behind a wall or buried somewhere you HAVE diagnosed the issue. "mr customer, you have loose neutral in an inaccessible location". Then quote to work around or to locate a fault in an inaccessible location.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is where i can clearly see a domino effect , being that i've made those situations accessible , only to find a whole lot more work than what was NOT clearly diagnosed.
> 
> None of us have Xray eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The key is to clearly explain up front.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Being honest trumps that by a country mile
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## yrman

....


----------



## HARRY304E

yrman said:


> ....


I saw that....:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

I'd like to bid on that $4500 circuit:thumbsup:

info will be needed though

or do i pay diagnostic fees to get it?:whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> ....


Your expertise and thread contribution is duly noted 

thx :whistling2:



~CS~


----------



## yrman

HARRY304E said:


> I saw that....:laughing:


Yeah, I got in before the 30 minute window. Some idiot whose name I won't mention, but everyone knows who it is, doesn't deserve his trollish behavior to be dignified with a direct response. :2guns: I have a pile of PM's saying what a moronic turd he is and to just ignore the attacks. I forgot all about the ignore button. Time to revisit it. 

IDK why I even bother looking at this site anymore. It's sort of like a wreck, you can try but you can't quite completely ignore it. 

I guess I should feel flattered that at my age someone has such a huge hard on for me. :blink: (need a vomit icon)

As more people with something positive to contribute get run off by the trolls, this site has become more and more boring and less useful anyway.

edit: Hooray! The ignore button works like a charm.


----------



## electricmalone

nrp3 said:


> I think we have to consider where some of us live in this equation. I am guessing some of these prices are in relation to expensive places to live. I have a friend from college whose parents live in Chatham. Big dollar area, some of this is relative.


 as in Chatham Cape Cod? That's upper - middle class cape cod LOL. Right in my service area. We charge Boston prices and are too busy to keep up most weeks. Have them call me if they're looking to get screwed, fairly...


----------



## nrp3

I'm talking NJ, but I am familiar enough with the Cape and Islands to know where you're coming from. Like working in Nantucket when all expenses are paid.


----------



## electricmalone

nrp3 said:


> I'm talking NJ, but I am familiar enough with the Cape and Islands to know where you're coming from. Like working in Nantucket when all expenses are paid.


 Chatham Cape Cod is nice, it's at the elbow. Nantucket and Martha's. Vineyard are a pain in the a$$ when you're from here. We charge double normal rates plus expenses to go, if they pay we go, if not, call someone else.


----------



## HARRY304E

yrman said:


> Yeah, I got in before the 30 minute window. Some idiot whose name I won't mention, but everyone knows who it is, doesn't deserve his trollish behavior to be dignified with a direct response. :2guns: I have a pile of PM's saying what a moronic turd he is and to just ignore the attacks. I forgot all about the ignore button. Time to revisit it.
> 
> IDK why I even bother looking at this site anymore. It's sort of like a wreck, you can try but you can't quite completely ignore it.
> 
> I guess I should feel flattered that at my age someone has such a huge hard on for me. :blink: (need a vomit icon)
> 
> As more people with something positive to contribute get run off by the trolls, this site has become more and more boring and less useful anyway.
> 
> edit: Hooray! The ignore button works like a charm.


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Ok people, calm down. Yes I get $249 troubleshoot calls all the time. Like I said, 9/10 times they take me or one of my guys 15-30 min to fix. The call I mentioned earlier, I did not collect. I will not collect if I don't find the problem. I only have 2 levels of trouble shooting. The level 2 for $789 is for 2 guys to take everything apart in the circuit. Should take no more than 2 hours. If they can't find the problem, then it's a buried junction box or some other form of shadiness. And your Damn right I'm charging $4500 to rewire. It's 16 devices in the basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor that need to be rewired. It will take at least 2 days. I don't hack the hell out of the walls, I fish. 

I don't put a gun to my customers heads. I give them options and they choose. This customer has not called me back. I don't care. I get plenty of other good calls, such as the $3500 job where thieves cut all the wire out of an open basement. It will take my 2 guys 1 day. Plus the daily troubleshoot calls I get.


----------



## 120/208

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Ok people, calm down. Yes I get $249 troubleshoot calls all the time. Like I said, 9/10 times they take me or one of my guys 15-30 min to fix. The call I mentioned earlier, I did not collect. I will not collect if I don't find the problem. I only have 2 levels of trouble shooting. The level 2 for $789 is for 2 guys to take everything apart in the circuit. Should take no more than 2 hours. If they can't find the problem, then it's a buried junction box or some other form of shadiness. And your Damn right I'm charging $4500 to rewire. It's 16 devices in the basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor that need to be rewired. It will take at least 2 days. I don't hack the hell out of the walls, I fish.
> 
> I don't put a gun to my customers heads. I give them options and they choose. This customer has not called me back. I don't care. I get plenty of other good calls, such as the $3500 job where thieves cut all the wire out of an open basement. It will take my 2 guys 1 day. Plus the daily troubleshoot calls I get.



You do not have to justify your costs or business operations to me or anyone else on this forum. I'm glad that you seem to be running a successful Electrical contracting business.


----------



## HARRY304E

120/208 said:


> You do not have to justify your costs or business operations to me or anyone else on this forum. I'm glad that you seem to be running a successful Electrical contracting business.


X2.

It takes guts to charge what the work is worth.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

120/208 said:


> You do not have to justify your costs or business operations to me or anyone else on this forum. I'm glad that you seem to be running a successful Electrical contracting business.


Actually, it's a little "I'm tired of people like CS tearing down and discouraging" and a lot of "I want others, especially start ups, to know they can be successful and price there work how it needs to be." I just hit my 2 year anniversary and if it weren't for the flyboys and yrmans constantly encouraging me and providing great advice, I wouldn't be where I am. If CS was my mentor, I would have quit a long time ago. No offense CS, but if we were to take a pole, you are quite a downer.


----------



## Ol Sparky

Customer: How much do I owe you?

Ol sparky: How much do you got?

Customer: No no, I am asking how much do I owe you?

Ol sparky: and _I'm _asking you, how much you got!



(Just kidding. Compliments of Nat'l Lampoons Vac)


Flat rate, shmat rate. Union vs non union. 

Bottom line ---its all debatable. What works for you may not for the other fellow.


----------



## Going_Commando

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Ok people, calm down. Yes I get $249 troubleshoot calls all the time. Like I said, 9/10 times they take me or one of my guys 15-30 min to fix. The call I mentioned earlier, I did not collect. I will not collect if I don't find the problem. I only have 2 levels of trouble shooting. The level 2 for $789 is for 2 guys to take everything apart in the circuit. Should take no more than 2 hours. If they can't find the problem, then it's a buried junction box or some other form of shadiness. And your Damn right I'm charging $4500 to rewire. It's 16 devices in the basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor that need to be rewired. It will take at least 2 days. I don't hack the hell out of the walls, I fish.
> 
> I don't put a gun to my customers heads. I give them options and they choose. This customer has not called me back. I don't care. I get plenty of other good calls, such as the $3500 job where thieves cut all the wire out of an open basement. It will take my 2 guys 1 day. Plus the daily troubleshoot calls I get.


Hey, thanks for the breakdown. I'll admit, my eyes bugged out of my head the first time I read your reply, but figured there was more to it. Thanks for fleshing it out. Those numbers are legit, and make a lot of sense. Keep it up guy. :thumbup:


----------



## FrunkSlammer

I don't think any company has to justify their prices of anything. If you think that Starbucks double mocha frappe misto vente soy non-fat extra foam coffee is too expensive, don't go there. 

I don't like greasy sales people who lie to sell more.. but honest work for honest pay is just fair. Most of us are working for less than we're worth, and unless we collectively figure that out, it's going to continue being a race to the bottom.


----------



## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> yrman said:
> 
> 
> 
> K&T, BX, the list can be rather extensive
> 
> 
> And if that's the entire repair, you'll bill accordingly? For instance, tripped breaker ?
> 
> 
> 
> This is where i can clearly see a domino effect , being that i've made those situations accessible , only to find a whole lot more work than what was NOT clearly diagnosed.
> 
> None of us have Xray eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being honest trumps that by a country mile
> 
> ~CS~
> 
> 
> 
> There you go flying out into irrelevant land again. Obviously none of us have X-ray eyes and can magically figure out what is wrong. You troubleshoot however long you choose to, and when the problem is isolated you go from there. I don't see what the big deal is. I know you'll probably respond with the same ol' "green journeyman know nothin' whipper snapper guessing what to charge and lying to the customer" schtick that you keep rocking, but it doesn't make any sense in this discussion.
> 
> Now, to pick apart your points, yes, electricians deal with K&T, BX, un grounded romex, melted wires, wires that were hit by nails or screws and eventually burn out, K&T insulation melting and shorting out in a box because it got buried in insulation, old splices that pulled apart, etc. We have all been there. Sometimes people want to know what things are going to cost before the work gets done, including troubleshooting. Yrman and Franklin explained quite clearly how they approach the customer, what's included, and how much it is going to cost. When it goes beyond that, it goes from there. The problem will get remedied one way or other other, and it will cost money. Some people will charge more than others.
> 
> If someone is too dumb to reset a circuit breaker, so they call an electrician, should we reset that breaker for free? Sure, I've been known to do it for free for elderly persons or whatever on the drive home, but I am getting at least my service call fee to show up. My rate to show up is less than Franklin's, and I don't recall what Yrman's is, but to get a sparky with a loaded truck to show up at your door in a convenient amount of time costs money, and that's just how it is. To argue that is asinine.
> 
> If you actually read what they say, it's not like they are just slapping charge after charge on the customer. They are saying "Okay, from your explanation of the problem, we are going to check all likely, accessible places for this amount, and it will cover a repair in those places (ie boxes, panel, fixture). If the problem isn't in an accessible spot, then they give the customer an option whether to have them cut open walls and go to town, or to rewire/replace the defective wiring, which is the culprit. This stuff isn't rocket science, so I don't see how you can be so confused and perturbed about it still. It is probably just your leanings towards hating corporations (though you own one), hating people making money (though you love money), hating people in power (even though you seem to love more legislation limiting evil corporations) and general flip flop attitude towards life.
> 
> *drops mic, walks away*
Click to expand...


----------



## macmikeman

Time to take a commercial break. Have you wondered how real pro's like macmikeman make all the money they do and not seem to work so hard at it?
Well it is because they took some time out of their daily routines along the way to study up on how to properly estimate jobs and earn a profit. YOU can do it too. And for free I am going to help you with a link drop. Now get off your asses and do some studying. Follow all the way thru and learn how to not screw up. http://www.electricalresources.com/Help/Electrical_Estimating_Techniques/NetHelp/default.htm

Oh and here is another tip: if you are doing electrical service work , learn how to provide a profitable price to perform the work up front. Don't be discouraged by losers who never actually had the balls to attempt to try it even if they claim they have. The lack of success on their part is how we know they didn't try. Too cowardly. So buck up punkards and learn how to take a leap of faith and start charging larging. Make money, not debt. 
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.......


----------



## hardworkingstiff

HARRY304E said:


> X2.
> 
> It takes guts to charge what the work is worth.


If you don't respect your worth, no one else will.


----------



## hardworkingstiff

FranklinsApprentice said:


> No offense CS, but if we were to take a pole, you are quite a downer.


Yea, but he's a likable guy. 

I think he's just been on the wrong side of some of life's experiences.


----------



## drspec

hardworkingstiff said:


> Yea, but he's a likable guy.
> 
> I think he's just been on the wrong side of some of life's experiences.


I think you meant to use :jester: instead of


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Actually, it's a little "I'm tired of people like CS tearing down and discouraging" and a lot of "I want others, especially start ups, to know they can be successful and price there work how it needs to be." I just hit my 2 year anniversary and if it weren't for the flyboys and yrmans constantly encouraging me and providing great advice, I wouldn't be where I am. If CS was my mentor, I would have quit a long time ago. No offense CS, but if we were to take a pole, you are quite a downer.


Your a noob being led around by other noobs Franklin. 

They all find some new toy to foist on the net like they invented it. 

The reality being it's the same old format with a new cover.

How do expect some of us that have been in biz for decades to react?

Sorry, i'm not the cheerleader type, seen it all, not impressed.

And yeah, were i your mentor, you'd probably be crying yourself to sleep most nights

~CS~


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> Your a noob being led around by other noobs Franklin.


Do you hear that flyboy? You're a noob ;-)


----------



## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> Your a noob being led around by other noobs Franklin. They all find some new toy to foist on the net like they invented it. The reality being it's the same old format with a new cover. How do expect some of us that have been in biz for decades to react? Sorry, i'm not the cheerleader type, seen it all, not impressed. And yeah, were i your mentor, you'd probably be crying yourself to sleep most nights ~CS~


Good thing the Lone Denier is there to stir up hate and discontent, tell people who are doing well in business and making money that they don't know what they are doing/talking about, and insulting those who try new things. 

Steve, how long have you been in business? If you are going to call everyone that uses FR on this site n00bs, then you might want to step up to the plate and say how long you've been in business, how you charge, and why your way is better. At this point. You are just acting like a scared monkey at he zoo throwing feces at the plexiglass.


----------



## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> Good thing the Lone Denier is there to stir up hate and discontent, tell people who are doing well in business and making money that they don't know what they are doing/talking about, and insulting those who try new things.
> 
> Steve, how long have you been in business? If you are going to call everyone that uses FR on this site n00bs, then you might want to step up to the plate and say how long you've been in business, how you charge, and why your way is better. At this point. You are just acting like a scared monkey at he zoo throwing feces at the plexiglass.



Commando, i don't feel the need to explain something i didn't say 

Now if you've anything new to bring to the table, i'm all ascii ears

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Do you hear that flyboy? You're a noob ;-)



More like Joe C's cousin....


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Btw Franklin

Anyone who succeeds via monopolizing on their local area buying out their competitors is doing well because THAT is their biz plan, software greasing it along is secondary to this

~CS~


----------



## btharmy

Maybe I am missing something here? I don't see where the argument lies. FR has been around for a LONG time. Is it because someone finally put it in the form of an app which is easily edited and adapted to contractors overhead cost and local economic environment that is the problem? If flat rate was still only available in print form would this thread still be going on?


----------



## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> Btw Franklin Anyone who succeeds via monopolizing on their local area buying out their competitors is doing well because THAT is their biz plan, software greasing it along is secondary to this ~CS~


Why do you think software removes an electrician's ability to price out work or to get things done? Why do you assume that flyboy bought out all his competition so he monopolized his service area? Those are some bold accusations, Cluckie.


----------



## Mshow1323

The differences between FR and T&M are simple. 
FR works with averages over long periods of time. If we only look at individual jobs, sometimes it benefits the contractor and sometimes the customer. But the customer always gets a price up front. Because sometimes it benefits the contractor, some customers have the perception that they are getting ripped off and over charged. 
T&M deals with absolutes, and gives a prices AFTERWARD based on actual hours worked. The customer has the perception of fairness. 

CS's argument, I believe, is that FR, and especially books and software, is an easy pricing strategy for new contractors. And new contractors give out prices without the full understanding of how hey are generating. 

My stance on T&M, and this is in regards of service work only, I find it impossible to tell a customer that I charge $195 an hour. I like I give upfront prices to keep my business costs private.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

I wonder if FR should be expanded to healthcare?

Doc, I have a headache..how much will it cost me?

Well the of last four patients with your symptoms, two required brain surgery but the other two only required asprin. So, I'll charge you $20,000, FR


----------



## Mshow1323

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I wonder if FR should be expanded to healthcare?
> 
> Doc, I have a headache..how much will it cost me?
> 
> Well the of last four patients with your symptoms, two required brain surgery but the other two only required asprin. So, I'll charge you $20,000, FR


Right..... Because doctors don't diagnose the problem first....
:whistling2:
Terrible rebuttal.


----------



## yrman

Going_Commando said:


> You are just acting like a scared monkey at he zoo throwing feces at the plexiglass.


ROTFLMAO! What a great and accurate image!
Viva l'ignore button! Free at last!


----------



## yrman

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I wonder if FR should be expanded to healthcare?
> 
> Doc, I have a headache..how much will it cost me?
> 
> Well the of last four patients with your symptoms, two required brain surgery but the other two only required asprin. So, I'll charge you $20,000, FR


No they would say it will be $300 to ask you a few questions and do a brief exam. Depending on what I find, I'll let you know what if anything is needed next. If DR's charged by T/M they would go out of business or charge absurd hourly rates. No way to cover all the insurance, overhead and other costs of doing business and make a profit and be compensated for their education and experience if they only charged for the time they spent examining a patient.

Geez, that sounds eerily familiar...... Now where have I heard that before?


----------



## yrman

Mshow1323 said:


> The differences between FR and T&M are simple.
> FR works with averages over long periods of time. If we only look at individual jobs, sometimes it benefits the contractor and sometimes the customer. But the customer always gets a price up front. Because sometimes it benefits the contractor, some customers have the perception that they are getting ripped off and over charged.
> T&M deals with absolutes, and gives a prices AFTERWARD based on actual hours worked. The customer has the perception of fairness.
> 
> CS's argument, I believe, is that FR, and especially books and software, is an easy pricing strategy for new contractors. And new contractors give out prices without the full understanding of how hey are generating.
> 
> My stance on T&M, and this is in regards of service work only, I find it impossible to tell a customer that I charge $195 an hour. I like I give upfront prices to keep my business costs private.


All true unless of course the job takes longer than they expected or costs more than they anticipated or they get a slow moving guy or one who is green or not that good. Then they feel ripped off with T/M. The work is done, the electrician spent time which they are now obligated to pay for. A highly skilled guy will have to work twice as hard to bill the same revenue. How is that fair either?

We always explain that we feel FR is fair because the customer is not penalized if they get a slower or less experienced electrician and an experienced and highly skilled electrician who is very fast is not penalized but rewarded for his skill. If we run into problems that we didn't anticipate then its on us not them. That is one reason fr prices can seem higher...they anticipate common issues and delays. Essentially the better the electrician the more revenue he can generate per hour. The customer knows right up front what it will cost to do a specific task and can say yes or no. No surprises, sticker shock is right up front. I think its better to not get a job because the customer didn't want to pay that much then to have them be pissed off afterwards because it took too long for something they thought would be quick and simple. Our guys can cut our charges if the issue is minor or they are in and out real quick. Our level 1 diagnostic with repair is $363. They cut it to $181 if its a simple and quick call. If its a lightbulb or tripped gfi then we charge only the $59 trip charge. It happens sometimes. Its much easier to price for potential challenges and cut it than ask for more once you get into it. Even in t/m there is usually a minimum charge. If you have a 2 hr. min then you risk them wanting you to do housework or do additional electrical work since they think they own your time for 2 hours.

Also, think about the last time you had any repair person or trade come out to your house. Its freaking expensive to get a plumber or appliance repaired or your car. Why are so many in this trade so hesitant to charge enough to make a profit? Its not a dirty word and too many don't understand the difference between wages and revenue, directs costs and overhead or gross profit vs net profit. Once you really grasp your true costs of running a business then it becomes much clearer what you really need to charge and why. It doesn't matter how you want to charge it T/M and F/R are the same concept just presented to the customer in different ways. No matter how you slice it, you need to cover all costs and ALL overhead and make a reasonable profit.


----------



## macmikeman

link drop, from one shameless mentor to another......... 






Steve's most important hour coming up....


----------



## 10492

yrman said:


> All true unless of course the job takes longer than they expected or costs more than they anticipated or they get a slow moving guy or one who is green or not that good. Then they feel ripped off with T/M. The work is done, the electrician spent time which they are now obligated to pay for. A highly skilled guy will have to work twice as hard to bill the same revenue. How is that fair either?
> 
> We always explain that we feel FR is fair because the customer is not penalized if they get a slower or less experienced electrician and an experienced and highly skilled electrician who is very fast is not penalized but rewarded for his skill. If we run into problems that we didn't anticipate then its on us not them. That is one reason fr prices can seem higher...they anticipate common issues and delays. Essentially the better the electrician the more revenue he can generate per hour. The customer knows right up front what it will cost to do a specific task and can say yes or no. No surprises, sticker shock is right up front. I think its better to not get a job because the customer didn't want to pay that much then to have them be pissed off afterwards because it took too long for something they thought would be quick and simple. Our guys can cut our charges if the issue is minor or they are in and out real quick. Our level 1 diagnostic with repair is $363. They cut it to $181 if its a simple and quick call. If its a lightbulb or tripped gfi then we charge only the $59 trip charge. It happens sometimes. Its much easier to price for potential challenges and cut it than ask for more once you get into it. Even in t/m there is usually a minimum charge. If you have a 2 hr. min then you risk them wanting you to do housework or do additional electrical work since they think they own your time for 2 hours.
> 
> Also, think about the last time you had any repair person or trade come out to your house. Its freaking expensive to get a plumber or appliance repaired or your car. Why are so many in this trade so hesitant to charge enough to make a profit? Its not a dirty word and too many don't understand the difference between wages and revenue, directs costs and overhead or gross profit vs net profit. Once you really grasp your true costs of running a business then it becomes much clearer what you really need to charge and why. It doesn't matter how you want to charge it T/M and F/R are the same concept just presented to the customer in different ways. No matter how you slice it, you need to cover all costs and ALL overhead and make a reasonable profit.




Right out of the bullsh1t catalog.:thumbsup:


Crickies, it's like word for word from you guys. 

Do what you want, how you want, and no-one will really care.


Posting BS you heard, from some asswipe, who heard it from another asswipe, who read it in so-and-so's book, won't make it true....


----------



## 10492

FranklinsApprentice said:


> So true. I have a flat rate of $249 to troubleshoot. 9/10 I'm in and out in 15-30 min, sometimes with a bigger job. But like the other day I got called and it was a loose neutral. I spent 1.5 hours and couldn't find it. Gave the customer a level 2 troubleshoot price of $789 or rewire the the whole circuit for $4500. Waiting to hear back.


Franklin, on last question about this.

You have a dispatch fee, $79 I recall?

You didn't charge the customer a dispatch fee, and a level one t-shoot call, and still didn't find the problem, did you?

You couldn't, you just couldn't.......right?


----------



## HARRY304E

Dnkldorf said:


> Right out of the bullsh1t catalog.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Crickies, it's like word for word from you guys.
> 
> Do what you want, how you want, and no-one will really care.
> 
> 
> Posting BS you heard, from some asswipe, who heard it from another asswipe, who read it in so-and-so's book, won't make it true....





Dnkldorf said:


> Franklin, on last question about this.
> 
> You have a dispatch fee, $79 I recall?
> 
> You didn't charge the customer a dispatch fee, and a level one t-shoot call, and still didn't find the problem, did you?
> 
> You couldn't, you just couldn't.......right?


What is your point?


Is there another way to learn, without ever reading what those who have proven track record can teach us?


----------



## Mshow1323

Dnkldorf said:


> Right out of the bullsh1t catalog.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Crickies, it's like word for word from you guys.
> 
> Do what you want, how you want, and no-one will really care.
> 
> 
> Posting BS you heard, from some asswipe, who heard it from another asswipe, who read it in so-and-so's book, won't make it true....


The classic reason why FR doesn't work. I have still yet to hear a valid thought out response against FR. We tend to give reasons why and how we justify our prices, and you T&M guys say "because it doesn't."


----------



## yrman

Why is my OPINION so BS to you? I could care less how you charge for your services and am simply sharing how we charge for ours and what is working for us. Nowhere will you EVER find that I have said ours is the only or best way except for for us. Do what works for YOU. There are lots of successful T/M companies. We cannot compete with them on the types of work that call for T/M and will never win those jobs. We do 85% residential service and this is where we are at now. When we find a new or better or more profitable way we will try that too. 

Why does a different opinion or that someone does things differently than you bother you SO much?

We went from struggling week by week to profitable with ever improving cash flow and revenue and from being dependent on one person to do everything to being able to have multiple people producing revenue. We can actually go away now and the business will still run. Phones will get answered, customers will get taken care of and money will still come in, bills will get paid and so will people. 

One day we will have a business that can actually be sold or support us to retire. We now provide jobs with reasonable pay AND benefits for 12 people. We offer health, dental, vision, life and supplemental insurance. Adding 401k and profit sharing on May 1. This has been an extremely challenging journey and we still struggle as we try to improve and grow. Sorry if this offends you so deeply. We learned a lot from others who were willing to share what worked for them and I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. A lot of people ask about how others charge and what works for them. We ask other people what is working for them all the time. Maybe instead of getting so offended by other peoples differences you should share what works for you so others can learn from YOUR experience.

If you can share any tips that will help us improve our business or profitability or increase revenue then I am all ears and will definitely give it a try.


----------



## Mshow1323

I also have a sneaking suspicion that some folks here are not contractors but work for somebody else, thus have no actual experience with the process.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

I suspect folks who use and like FR pricing:

1) Have good inspection in their area, so they will not be working on sub-standard projects.

2) Have a large shop and fairly deep pockets and can do quite nicely using statistics

3) Are well equipped and employ well trained individuals

It would not be logical, on my part to advise someone who has a business model using FR and is rolling in money, to change their ways.

To each his own and BTW, this thread has been very informative.


----------



## EBFD6

yrman said:


> As more people with something positive to contribute get run off by the trolls, this site has become more and more boring and less useful anyway.


You just need to keep in mind that this site is for entertainment purposes only. You can't ask a serious question and expect serious answers here. You can have a lot of fun reading threads and busting balls here, but if you're looking for serious answers there are other sites that are better suited for that type of thing. 

I basically come here for two reasons, to ruffle the feathers of the safety nazis and to argue with the union guys. 

I also like to read some of the threads with business owners talking about stuff they expect from their employees. It usually makes me appreciate my job knowing that other employees have it far worse than I do.


----------



## yrman

Dnkldorf said:


> Right out of the bullsh1t catalog.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Crickies, it's like word for word from you guys.
> 
> Do what you want, how you want, and no-one will really care.
> 
> 
> *Posting BS you heard, from some asswipe, who heard it from another asswipe, who read it in so-and-so's book, won't make it true...*.


Not posting what we _heard_ from some_ asswipe_.
Sharing what we actually *DO *and have learned about from others who are *MORE SUCCESSFUL* than us and the actual *RESULTS we have EXPERIENCED first hand. * 

I think there are a lot more people on this site who want to share and learn from each other and a much smaller number who make more noise who prefer to tear down and insult anyone expressing a different point of view. Jealousy maybe? I dunno. You never know what another persons reality is.

Again, sorry that my opinions and sharing my personal experiences offends you so deeply. 

However I want to clarify that I do not share information that I _read_ in someone's (some asswipes as you say) book or _heard about_ but our own first hand, real life experiences. 

Just because something is not true for YOU, does not make it a lie for the rest of the world.


----------



## sctracker

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I suspect folks who use and like FR pricing:
> 
> 1) Have good inspection in their area, so they will not be working on sub-standard projects.
> 
> 2) Have a large shop and fairly deep pockets and can do quite nicely using statistics
> 
> 3) Are well equipped and employ well trained individuals
> 
> It would not be logical, on my part to advise someone who has a business model using FR and is rolling in money, to change their ways.
> 
> To each his own and BTW, this thread has been very informative.


I'm a one man shop and I get some really terrible jobs in the mountains here all the time. Old meth labs, garages turned into pot farms with all kinds of weird electrical problems that I don't see coming but I still do better on flat rate then I did on t+m. So my pockets aren't that deep, I don't have a shop at all, but I would like to think I'm a good electrician


----------



## yrman

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> I suspect folks who use and like FR pricing:
> 
> 1) Have good inspection in their area, so they will not be working on sub-standard projects.
> 
> 2) Have a large shop and fairly deep pockets and can do quite nicely using statistics
> 
> 3) Are well equipped and employ well trained individuals
> 
> It would not be logical, on my part to advise someone who has a business model using FR and is rolling in money, to change their ways.
> 
> To each his own and BTW, this thread has been very informative.


A lot of this is true. The biggest key and also the biggest challenge is finding and training the right people. If the crew both inside and outside does not buy into the concept and the value all around it won't work. 

Our selling techs who are the most successful are great electricians *FIRST*. That is the most single important factor hands down. If they are knowledgeable, skilled and confident then people will buy from them and usually gladly pay the prices we charge. Otherwise forget it. If you are average and seem the same as everyone else you get stuck in the "going rate" race to the bottom. If you don't think your are worth it and that the pricing is fair, neither will the customer. We are upfront that our prices will be higher than a lot of our competition. We have to pay decent wages and offer benefits and care in order to attract committed and caring employees. That means we have to charge enough to pay them and still make a profit. For those who are employees and not owners it would blow your mind to know what it costs to operate a business. Especially here in CA. If we can't charge enough then we can't pay either and downward spiral we go. 

Finding the right people who are a fit is absolutely the hardest part. We have extremely high quality standards and will quickly part ways with anyone who refuses or is incapable of meeting them- it doesn't matter how much work they can sell. We are sticklers about the quality of the work and service and care about providing value to the customer. If you don't do that and still charge high prices then you cross the line into rip off. 

Electricians who come from a T/M background are usually shocked by our prices at first but they see very quickly that many customers ARE willing to pay them and they also quickly buy into the value because we work really hard to make sure it is and feels worth it to the customer. It doesn't usually take too long for them to feel just fine about our pricing structure. BTW the "going rate" in the large city we live it is still $75-$95/ per hour. Our service upgrade with permit is close to 4K and the "going rate" here is probably around $2,000-$3000. Yet we still win the jobs... even when they shop and get lower pricing. Sure we loose some but some of you would be surprised at how many we win. We win and do 2-3 per week. I disagree that it is always all about the price. For some customers yes, but not all. However it is true that it's easier to get the higher prices if you are established and have a good reputation. I think it is much harder for guys just getting started until you get a lot of referrals going.

We keep detailed records of where every call and job comes from and about 35% are repeat and referral YTD. Our goal is to increase that to 50%. We run about 120-150 service calls a month at an average ticket of over $700 so 35% repeat and referral calls is pretty respectable IMO. 

We have hired guys who were selling their own side work at $40/hr and it's surprising how quickly they adjust and become just fine with our prices.

This model definitely does not work well for commercial or T/I work. We win some small commercial jobs but typically they are far more price sensitive and commodity like situations. We absolutely cannot compete there and lose a lot more than we win. Our day rate at 80% efficiency is $125/hr. vs the $75 many are looking to pay. I think it mostly depends on what type of work you want to focus on.

F/R pricing is best suited in a residential service environment where you waste a lot of time doing things that cannot be billed at an hourly rate.

I guess I need to look elsewhere but I am scarily hooked on this site.


----------



## RGH

There is no valid argument for success


----------



## rewire

yrman said:


> A lot of this is true. The biggest key and also the biggest challenge is finding and training the right people. If the crew both inside and outside does not buy into the concept and the value all around it won't work.
> 
> Our selling techs who are the most successful are great electricians FIRST. That is the most single important factor hands down. If they are knowledgeable, skilled and confident then people will buy from them and usually gladly pay the prices we charge. Otherwise forget it. If you are average and seem the same as everyone else you get stuck in the "going rate" race to the bottom. If you don't think your are worth it and that the pricing is fair, neither will the customer. We are upfront that our prices will be higher than a lot of our competition. We have to pay decent wages and offer benefits and care in order to attract committed and caring employees. That means we have to charge enough to pay them and still make a profit. For those who are employees and not owners it would blow your mind to know what it costs to operate a business. Especially here in CA. If we can't charge enough then we can't pay either and downward spiral we go.
> 
> Finding the right people who are a fit is absolutely the hardest part. We have extremely high quality standards and will quickly part ways with anyone who refuses or is incapable of meeting them- it doesn't matter how much work they can sell. We are sticklers about the quality of the work and service and care about providing value to the customer. If you don't do that and still charge high prices then you cross the line into rip off.
> 
> Electricians who come from a T/M background are usually shocked by our prices at first but they see very quickly that many customers ARE willing to pay them and they also quickly buy into the value because we work really hard to make sure it is and feels worth it to the customer. It doesn't usually take too long for them to feel just fine about our pricing structure. BTW the "going rate" in the large city we live it is still $75-$95/ per hour. Our service upgrade with permit is close to 4K and the "going rate" here is probably around $2,000-$3000. Yet we still win the jobs... even when they shop and get lower pricing. Sure we loose some but some of you would be surprised at how many we win. We win and do 2-3 per week. I disagree that it is always all about the price. For some customers yes, but not all. However it is true that it's easier to get the higher prices if you are established and have a good reputation. I think it is much harder for guys just getting started until you get a lot of referrals going.
> 
> We keep detailed records of where every call and job comes from and about 35% are repeat and referral YTD. Our goal is to increase that to 50%. We run about 120-150 service calls a month at an average ticket of over $700 so 35% repeat and referral calls is pretty respectable IMO.
> 
> We have hired guys who were selling their own side work at $40/hr and it's surprising how quickly they adjust and become just fine with our prices.
> 
> This model definitely does not work well for commercial or T/I work. We win some small commercial jobs but typically they are far more price sensitive and commodity like situations. We absolutely cannot compete there and lose a lot more than we win. Our day rate at 80% efficiency is $125/hr. vs the $75 many are looking to pay. I think it mostly depends on what type of work you want to focus on.
> 
> F/R pricing is best suited in a residential service environment where you waste a lot of time doing things that cannot be billed at an hourly rate.
> 
> I guess I need to look elsewhere but I am scarily hooked on this site.


The net is where we all are successful, covered up with work, have great employees in vast numbers, and we turn down million dollar jobs for billion dollar jobs.


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> CS's argument, I believe, is that FR, and especially books and software, is an easy pricing strategy for new contractors. And new contractors give out prices without the full understanding of how hey are generating.
> 
> 
> 
> Consider the source Mshow.
> 
> What do most FR software pedalers want?
> 
> They wish to proliferate the market
> 
> How do they do this is a key point. FR to them is anything up from coffee time, all a grand EC training camp in their future back pocket
> 
> Last but not least, you'll pay a monthly fee, then anything that is a failure will require them to _charge you more_, anything that is a success is testimony to _their _marketing skills
> 
> Do stop me if you've heard this scam before......:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My stance on T&M, and this is in regards of service work only, I find it impossible to tell a customer that I charge $195 an hour. I like I give upfront prices to keep my business costs private.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've recently FR _(which was called bid in my day)_ to the tune of $500 a man hour
> 
> Luck , skill, or crap shoot, you tell me....:whistling2:
> 
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## chicken steve

RGH said:


> There is no valid argument for success



Which is exactly why excess exceeds in this country RG

:thumbsup:


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> I also have a sneaking suspicion that some folks here are not contractors but work for somebody else, thus have no actual experience with the process.


AND taking notes......:whistling2:


~CS~


----------



## 120/208

Proud flat rate pricer since 2013.:thumbup:


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> I guess I need to look elsewhere but I am scarily hooked on this site.


Please don't let the door slap you in the azz Yrman....

But if i does, know that _some of us_ have earned the right to be here

_Some of us_ have back backs, bum knees, crap grip, as well as other trade related problems you'll _never_ have

_Some of_ us spent nights falling asleep with the NEC

_Some of us_ actually can decipher what the NEC is trying to impart

_Some of_ us gambled our last  dime on what we do, and everyday live the _threat_ of being torn down from the position we've scrathed our way up to inch by inch over YEARS of dilligence

All you can say is you married into what may be what WE are 

And have some shiny new toy to wave about .....:whistling2:

how do you expect to be responded to?

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> Why do you think software removes an electrician's ability to price out work or to get things done? Why do you assume that flyboy bought out all his competition so he monopolized his service area? Those are some bold accusations, Cluckie.



Well lets sum it up then Commando...

We've an EC who admittedly through multiple posts pays for the _best_ help, offers the _best _deal, and gets the _best _dollar for what he offers

Kinda sounds like the 'ol car salesman who _'get a $100 car, puts a $100 into it , sells it for $100, and *still* makes $100'_

:whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> Please don't let the door slap you in the azz Yrman....
> 
> But if i does, know that _some of us_ have earned the right to be here
> 
> _Some of us_ have back backs, bum knees, crap grip, as well as other trade related problems you'll _never_ have
> 
> _Some of_ us spent nights falling asleep with the NEC
> 
> _Some of us_ actually can decipher what the NEC is trying to impart
> 
> _Some of_ us gambled our last  dime on what we do, and everyday live the _threat_ of being torn down from the position we've scrathed our way up to inch by inch over YEARS of dilligence
> 
> All you can say is you married into what may be what WE are
> 
> And have some shiny new toy to wave about .....:whistling2:
> 
> how do you expect to be responded to?
> 
> ~CS~



And what makes you more qualified to give business advice?


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> Proud flat rate pricer since 2013.:thumbup:


And i since the mid 80's 120

Yet i've found _pride_ is a poor biz attribute 

Try meticulous , speculative, intuitive .....

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> And what makes you more qualified to give business advice?


Did i say i was giving out biz advice 120?

No, i'm confronting the usual biz advice here

Get it right please

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> Did i say i was giving out biz advice 120?
> 
> No, i'm confronting the usual biz advice here
> 
> Get it right please
> 
> ~CS~


Strike a nerve?:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

Do try harder lad.....

~CS~


----------



## flyboy

120/208 said:


> Proud flat rate pricer since 2013.:thumbup:


Me too since 1995 :thumbsup:

...but as much as I ache to help and contribute, please, don't ask me how it's working, or what's the best way to make it work, or share any numbers with you because as much as I'd like to tell you I can't. Not on this site! I've been called a liar and accused of ripping off little old ladies. :laughing:


----------



## MTW

flyboy said:


> I've been called a liar...


Because you are. :whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve

flyboy said:


> Me too since 1995 :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, 9 yrs your prior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been called a liar and accused of ripping off little old ladies. :laughing:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well let's not feel so alone then Flyboy
> 
> feel the love with us all!
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## MTW

chicken steve said:


> Please don't let the door slap you in the azz Yrman....
> 
> But if i does, know that _some of us_ have earned the right to be here
> 
> _Some of us_ have back backs, bum knees, crap grip, as well as other trade related problems you'll _never_ have
> 
> _Some of_ us spent nights falling asleep with the NEC
> 
> _Some of us_ actually can decipher what the NEC is trying to impart
> 
> _Some of_ us gambled our last  dime on what we do, and everyday live the _threat_ of being torn down from the position we've scrathed our way up to inch by inch over YEARS of dilligence
> 
> All you can say is you married into what may be what WE are
> 
> And have some shiny new toy to wave about .....:whistling2:
> 
> how do you expect to be responded to?
> 
> ~CS~



Dude, you're in love with her. Just come out and say it already.


----------



## chicken steve

MTW said:


> Dude, you're in love with her. Just come out and say it already.


It's true, you've outed me 

I want her bad too, i'd pay anything for her to grow a seat the shape of my 'puter chair & blow chunks on the 'net while i go do the _real _work

:whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> And what makes you more qualified to give business advice?


Perhaps to provide clarity , anyone who comes to ET, anyone at all, is subject to scrutiny in what they offer 120

This site is full of old dogs like me who'll growl at so much as a wirenut

That's part of our charm :thumbsup:

So how do you expect any of us to respond to the disciples of some hack _'can't do but can teach'_ sales hack that was permanently exiled out of here?


~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> Please don't let the door slap you in the azz Yrman....
> 
> But if i does, know that _some of us_ have earned the right to be here
> 
> _Some of us_ have back backs, bum knees, crap grip, as well as other trade related problems you'll _never_ have
> 
> _Some of_ us spent nights falling asleep with the NEC
> 
> _Some of us_ actually can decipher what the NEC is trying to impart
> 
> _Some of_ us gambled our last  dime on what we do, and everyday live the _threat_ of being torn down from the position we've scrathed our way up to inch by inch over YEARS of dilligence
> 
> All you can say is you married into what may be what WE are
> 
> And have some shiny new toy to wave about .....:whistling2:
> 
> how do you expect to be responded to?
> 
> ~CS~


Steve; I usually enjoy reading your posts, but you're way of line here, the fact is you do not like the business expertise that Yrman brings to the forum, for which I'm positive many of the guys here have learned some very valuable information that is otherwise unavailable by you, many of us enjoy reading what she has to say on this topic, if you do not like what she has to say, then by all means say so, but try to make your case in a manner that does not insult and attack like a 14 year old would, that just got his jug of whiskey confiscated .


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> if you do not like what she has to say, then by all means say so, but try to make your case in a manner that does not insult and attack like a 14 year old would, that just got his jug of whiskey confiscated .


No i don't like her, in fact i find her rather like an ankle biting dog with little to offer other than excruciating blather.....

Read her, read me ....

Make your own assumptions, judge me as an electrician *AND* biz man of tenure IN THE FIELD for decades

respond w/o_ bias_ :thumbsup:

That's always a key point Harry, because so may of us _(as this thread proves with repeatedly regurgitation )_ goes through life with denial shields on full power

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> No i don't like her, in fact i find her rather like an ankle biting dog with little to offer other than excruciating blather.....
> 
> Read her, read me ....
> 
> Make your own assumptions, judge me as an electrician *AND* biz man of tenure IN THE FIELD for decades
> 
> respond w/o_ bias_ :thumbsup:
> 
> That's always a key point Harry, because so may of us _(as this thread proves with repeatedly regurgitation )_ goes through life with denial shields on full power
> 
> ~CS~


Steve; every flat rate thread we have here which are less and less thanks to your constant beat down of the topic, we've got it already with you, you hate this topic, I'm sure that the next guy that starts a flat rate pricing thread, looking to learn about the topic, you'll be right on it ready to beat down the thread until it gets closed or dies off.

It is you that trashes every flat rate thread and now your resorting to attacks and insults,,,, chill out.


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> It is you that trashes every flat rate thread and now your resorting to attacks and insults,,,, chill out.


I'm adding* logic* to feel good cheerleading Harry

imho, there's very few who step up to _that _plate, pack mentality and the cowardice it cultivates applying :whistling2:

If you wish to counter any point i've made you'll need to counter with *logic* for my response

~CS~


----------



## yrman

You will never see me post technical information or in any code discussion as I am not a certified electrician. 

My husband has been an electrician in the field since 1979 and has all the physical wear and tear to show for it. He just doesn't post. 

*HE* is the reason our company has a great reputation in our area. NOW it is also due to the talented people who work with us. He used to sell all the work and do most of it, now he only sells a fraction of it and wears his tools infrequently because we have grown the company to a point where he doesn't have to anymore.

*HE* sets the standard for the workmanship and quality standards we demand.

*HE* still wears his tools although at 60 less and less now.

So what does that have to do with me posting in the _business and marketing _ section about a trade that I spend all of my waking hours working in and thinking about?

As for marrying into this business.....

True* He* was in business since 1988 and when I started working with him in 2010 it was just him and a helper working from his house. Revenues were <200K He made a decent living but not much more.

*WE* started our marriage (his 3rd, my 2nd) and business partnership with close to $0 between of us. We were both wiped out financially from our divorces. Both starting over from scratch.

I put the last few dollars of my retirement from my previous life into this (OUR) business. When we could not make payroll I borrowed money from MY family and invested the last few thousand I had from my mothers inheritance to keep us afloat during the roughest times. 

WE have lived completely hand to mouth, day by day, week by week, month by month until recently. We had $0 operating capital, $0 savings or safety net and NO CREDIT of any kind. We bootstrapped it to the extreme.

Our situation has been gradually improving bit by bit over the last 3 years and when I say bit by bit, I mean BIT BY TEENY TINY BIT. 

For a long time, we needed today's money to pay 3 month old bills. Gradually it got to last months bills, then last weeks bills and finally this weeks bills. For the first time, we have some backup and this weeks earnings are set aside for next weeks expenses. We are _FINALLY_ getting dug out and caught up and putting money aside for operating capital and actually starting to get ahead. We are _Almost_ out of the woods but still in a place where one bad month can still cause us to get behind on our bills.

Our electricians take home more pay then we do still because we are building for a future. We have worked 10-15 hour days 6-7 days a week over the last few years trying to build something. EVERYONE else still gets paid before we do. 

CS makes it sound like I walked into a successful thriving operation and just started spouting out electrician advice about topics I know nothing about. He is wrong wrong wrong. I share the direct experiences we have had together about business and marketing topics- which I DO know about. First hand and directly, and I work far longer days than my husband. Usually all evening after getting home too. Not with tools no, but hard work nonetheless. He will tell anyone that. To say there is only one kind of work is the stupidest comment I have heard in a really long time. Even considering the source.

I married a great (and handsome :thumbsup electrician with a great reputation and added my marketing and business experience and skills to work *together* in the business he _started_ to take it to the next level. A feat that we are finally starting to succeed at. We have far from made it but to go from < $200,000 to 1.5M (proj) in 4 years is something we are both proud of and *we* _earned_ with hard work and long hours and many sleepless nights. No one GAVE me ANYTHING. I put both my MONEY and my TIME into this business. 

To say that I have not earned a place in this business that I mostly run is absurd. My husband is the first one to acknowledge my contributions to the business HE started and ran alone for so many years. 90% of those years as a one or 2 man shop. To say that the only work is the work in the field is just plain stupid. 

I have cried and stressed and sat up and sweated payroll and other critical expenses and bills so many nights. My kid went without, and I have no retirement or college fund for my teenager. I drive an 18 year old car and have not bought clothes for 5 years. I am sure many of you can relate to the horrible feeling of not knowing where the next $ is going to come from. I/We sure can. Together WE have been building something that NEITHER of us could have done alone. 

Just because I don't wear tools does not mean I didn't earn my place in this company. 

I really think that CS just can't stand the fact that I am a woman. .

This thread is about flat rates and num nuts keeps saying that anyone who uses it is lying blah blah blah.

I post proof that working this way has helped *us* grow from being almost $100,000 behind in bills and taxes to profitable and having positive cash flow in a few years. I am pretty sure this is really what makes him loose his mind and start tossing his online cookies. (or feces through the Plexiglas :laughing. I'll share our books if anyone wants to see the proof. PROOF CS PROOF. PROOF ya no.... *proooooof* of the numerical kind....of real growth and going from barely making ends meet to making a profit and having positive cash flow... at least more often than not now. (not in a big way but good steady progress) THAT is what is really twisting his knickers. He hates it when anyone shares success stories - especially if it involves using flat rate pricing- but most of all from me.

ps. We do NOT subscribe to any FR program either. It is just how we price our work.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Way to go yrman! All the bs rants and accusations that CS throws at the plexiglass are baseless. I don't follow any programs either. I FR based on what a job will take my guys to do. If it's a 1 hour job, then it's a specific price. If it's a 2 hour job it's a specific price, half day, full day, specific price. I don't use a program or subscribe to an idea. I combine many ideas, none of which have been CS's. I know I am feeding into his ego by mentioning him. How about this for logic CS, "make more money than you spend." It's rather sad that he has so much to say of what shouldn't, couldn't, or won't work. Like yrman said, I am no way saying my way is the best way. Only that it works for me. With myself, another electrician and a helper, I did over $500,000 in sales last year. So far in 3 months I've done almost $200,000 with the same size crew. If you would like, I will share with you what I've done, a pay it forward. Yrman, flyboy, big John, Harry, 120, and so many others will actually share there successes and failures to help those of us to either deal with similar struggles or avoid them altogether. CS has offered nothing. CS in my opinion is a man with a microphone that has been bullied and taking out all his frustrations on those he feels superior to. Especially young contractors and women. In his rants he demands respect yet earns none. To him any attention is good attention. And if that's not wants going on, then he is a very disturbed individual that could probably use some medication, in my humble opinion. I feel sorry for the man. To everyone here, may your businesses prosper. Yours to CS. I wish no man to struggle, or woman.


----------



## electrician1

Read a lot of posts here, but don't normally chime in. Yrman, thats an inspiring story and I'm sure it really hits home with a lot of electricians that have gone into business for themselves including MYSELF.

As far as C.Steve debating your point of view because your a woman, I don't think that's the case. He seems to be quite intelligent and from all the posts I've read here, I don't think he's a bad guy. I just think he's set in the way he does things and doesn't like to necessarily agree with some views that are different than his. Long story short, my father is 67 and has been an electrician since 1965. The best electrician I know personally. Can pretty much wire anything you put in front of him, but when it comes to him doing estimating, he puts his blueprints on a table, has a magnifying glass and a pencil with paper. If I attempted to put him in front of a computer, he would chew my head off. In any case, he does things the way he wants and I don't think anyone will ever change him. Some might say that C.Steve can have his opinion as to whether T&M is better than FR, but the problem is him not admitting that FR works better for some, but again I just think he's an electrician that's set in his ways. If anybody here can say they have never worked for or with an electrician who thought they were right about most things, I would say you are lying.


----------



## HARRY304E

Dnkldorf said:


> Right out of the bullsh1t catalog.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Crickies, it's like word for word from you guys.
> 
> Do what you want, how you want, and no-one will really care.
> 
> 
> Posting BS you heard, from some asswipe, who heard it from another asswipe, who read it in so-and-so's book, won't make it true....


looks like you're the ass wipe....



> 04-14-06, 17:07 EST #6
> *Dnkldorf*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Member
> 
> 
> Join DateApr 2006Posts35
> 
> 
> 3 tips I'll give you..
> 
> 1) Don't call anyone from the yellow pages with full or half page adds, they will be the most expensive and slickest talkers.
> 2) If the electrician wants money up front to give you an estimate, hang up the phone and move down the list. Chances are they will charge you $99 just to come out and look for 10 minutes, and then give you a $5000 estimate. This way they made $99 for 10 minutes and don't have to do the work they quoted.
> 3) If you have a contractor open a pricing book, smack him. They will use words like industry standard pricing, better quality parts ect. Truth is, all supply houses sell kits pre-made up for this type work. The kits run about $4-$500 for everything you probably going to need. Now pay a decent guy $75/hr, and it pobably will take him 4-5hrs to install everything by himself. Should be around $1000-$1200 tops. The guys that charge by the job, will quote you $3-6K, this hides their labor rates. Hense the reason the charge by the job, would you know they are charging you $1000/hr for a 3-4 hr job?
> 
> They will claim the horror stories of guys charging on a T&M basis, to scare you into their "flat rate pricing"...
> 
> Call around, you'll be surprised. Just remmember if anyone wants to charge you to come out and look, hang up the phone. Legit guys will usually quote you a price for free...​
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/e...replacing-electrical-panel.html#ixzz2xtEwtfID
> ​


----------



## yrman

HARRY304E said:


> looks like you're the ass wipe....


 AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
That post is absolutely hysterical Harry. :laughing::laughing: Delivered to exactly the customers we never want. When they do call and squawk because we charge to go out, all I can say, is "great" let the competition run around for free. When someone says *"all the other contractors will come out for free"* I want to tell them that is EXACTLY WHY we charge a fee to put an electrician who is on payroll into a truck to spend 1-2 hours driving to, speaking with and educating a person who does not value his time, knowledge or expertise. 

Our true "competition" is also trying to make a decent living too. Might as well keep the low-ballers tied up with the cheap azz customers. Match made in heaven! 

BTW I made a mistake in my post. My husband started in the trade in 1971 not 1979. He asked me to correct it. Don't want to cheat him of any of his years! :no:

Personally, I have nothing against this poster. The only person I have an issue with is the one who attacks me no matter what I say.

p.s. Thanks for the kind PM's! It really means a lot to me. I do take some of this stuff personally even though I know I shouldn't.


----------



## HARRY304E

yrman said:


> AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
> That post is absolutely hysterical Harry. :laughing::laughing: Delivered to exactly the customers we never want. When they do call and squawk because we charge to go out, all I can say, is "great" let the competition run around for free. When someone says *"all the other contractors will come out for free"* I want to tell them that is EXACTLY WHY we charge a fee to put an electrician who is on payroll into a truck to spend 1-2 hours driving to, speaking with and educating a person who does not value his time, knowledge or expertise.
> 
> Our true "competition" is also trying to make a decent living too. Might as well keep the low-ballers tied up with the cheap azz customers. Match made in heaven!
> 
> BTW I made a mistake in my post. My husband started in the trade in 1971 not 1979. He asked me to correct it. Don't want to cheat him of any of his years! :no:
> 
> Personally, I have nothing against this poster. The only person I have an issue with is the one who attacks me no matter what I say.
> 
> p.s. Thanks for the kind PM's! It really means a lot to me. I do take some of this stuff personally even though I know I shouldn't.


We have a thread on the FR forum about that post going...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## RGH

God I hope I win the lottery saturday :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

RGH said:


> God I hope I win the lottery saturday :laughing:


Hell YES!!!!:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


----------



## yrman

HARRY304E said:


> We have a thread on the FR forum about that post going...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


 I haven't logged in there for a really long time. Just checked it out and it looks like lots of good stuff from motivated people since my last visit.

Thanks!


----------



## RGH

Only on ET will we tie the dead horse the van and drag her down the road. Flat works for x T&M works for y........:thumbup: next:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

yrman said:


> I haven't logged in there for a really long time. Just checked it out and it looks like lots of good stuff from motivated people since my last visit.
> 
> Thanks!


The content is really good there and we have fun too,,,feel free to jump in any time, Your Knowledge is very welcome there.....:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E

RGH said:


> Only on ET will we tie the dead horse the van and drag her down the road. Flat works for x T&M works for y........:thumbup: next:laughing:


I'm sure we can get another 200 posts out of this thread .:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Ok people, calm down. Yes I get $249 troubleshoot calls all the time. Like I said, 9/10 times they take me or one of my guys 15-30 min to fix. The call I mentioned earlier, I did not collect. I will not collect if I don't find the problem. I only have 2 levels of trouble shooting. The level 2 for $789 is for 2 guys to take everything apart in the circuit. Should take no more than 2 hours. If they can't find the problem, then it's a buried junction box or some other form of shadiness. And your Damn right I'm charging $4500 to rewire. It's 16 devices in the basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor that need to be rewired. It will take at least 2 days. I don't hack the hell out of the walls, I fish.
> 
> I don't put a gun to my customers heads. I give them options and they choose. This customer has not called me back. I don't care. I get plenty of other good calls, such as the $3500 job where thieves cut all the wire out of an open basement. It will take my 2 guys 1 day. Plus the daily troubleshoot calls I get.


So, the customer gets 2 levels, one for $249 (can we assume 1 man hr) , then level tw0 $789 2 man hrs x 2

Out a total of $1038 for , can we say, a total of 5 man hours?

The customer is also left with his circuitry taken apart, with _'buried JB' _

S/he's then given a total fix price of $4500.

As we keep hearing the diagnostics are waved upon contract, can we further assume the $1038 is knocked off this $4500 ?

If so, the customer faces approx $3500. , or about $220 to fish each outlet



Now a smart customer shops, evident everyday @ ET btw. What if s/he decides to ask for a_ 'per stop'_ price , and finds it cheaper than $200?

In fact, what if s/he comes up repeatedly with _'per stop'_ pricing lower than yours, in your area?

The customer , if i'm reading this correctly, has this option, if s/he wishes to pay the diagnostic fee, _correct_?

But this would add that $1038 on top of whatever pricing the customer can gain shopping around.

Methinks i see muzzle..... :whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> I'm sure we can get another 200 posts out of this thread .:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


Bring it on! :thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## 10492

FranklinsApprentice said:


> I did over $500,000 in sales last year. So far in 3 months I've done almost $200,000 with the same size crew.


Andy, the only one you are kidding is yourself.

1. I don't believe you had the capital set aside for the advertising budget needed to achieve such numbers in such a short time. You are a new business, less than 2 yrs...right?

2. You claim you base your pricing on averages. Averages that you know you don't have, because you haven't been in business very long. This means you must of based these averages on someone elses numbers. If that is the case, just come out and say it. Don't claim they are based on your stats....

3. Back to the averages thing. You come across a problem you can't figure out within this average time and cost, and you bail. You gave up, and left. How does that figure into your averages? According to your numbers, this happens 10% of the time. (9 out of 10)

4. You claim it costs a lot of money to train techs, and that is why your overhead is so much, and why you need to charge a premium price for your services. Sounds fine in theory, but I think you know where I am going with this, so I'll stop.....

5. Look, you like flat rate because you hide your labor rate, it's that simple. All the rest is fluff, sizzle if you want to call it that. Just stand right up and say it next time someone asks, they don't need nonsense and BS.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> So, the customer gets 2 levels, one for $249 (can we assume 1 man hr) , then level tw0 $789 2 man hrs x 2 Out a total of $1038 for , can we say, a total of 5 man hours? The customer is also left with his circuitry taken apart, with 'buried JB' S/he's then given a total fix price of $4500. As we keep hearing the diagnostics are waved upon contract, can we further assume the $1038 is knocked off this $4500 ? If so, the customer faces approx $3500. , or about $220 to fish each outlet Now a smart customer shops, evident everyday @ ET btw. What if s/he decides to ask for a 'per stop' price , and finds it cheaper than $200? In fact, what if s/he comes up repeatedly with 'per stop' pricing lower than yours, in your area? The customer , if i'm reading this correctly, has this option, if s/he wishes to pay the diagnostic fee, correct? But this would add that $1038 on top of whatever pricing the customer can gain shopping around. Methinks i see muzzle..... :whistling2: ~CS~


No need to make it complicated. Its all about odds. Chances are 99% that the problem is in a device box. I did not charge for the first diagnostic. If we were to do the level 2, we're confident we will find the problem. My 1.5 hours, plus the 2 hours my two guys will take - $789. If by some reason it cannot be found, then we would not charge the $789 either. If we don't fix it, we don't charge for it. Now before you get your panties in a wad, this has happened only once in my 2 years. If the customer accepts the rewire, then yes its $4500. My daily rate for 2 electricians and a stocked box truck is $2000/day + materials. This will take all of 2 days. I don't care about per stop pricing. If someone else will do it cheaper then they can I have it. I get $2000/ day jobs plus consistently whether its a generator install or a 100 amp panel swap with a couple troubleshoot calls. I'll be honest. I would rather not have the rewire job. Its a complete pain in the ass. But if I am going to take it, its for what I'm worth.


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> No need to make it complicated. Its all about odds. Chances are 99% that the problem is in a device box. I did not charge for the first diagnostic. If we were to do the level 2, we're confident we will find the problem. My 1.5 hours, plus the 2 hours my two guys will take - $789. If by some reason it cannot be found, then we would not charge the $789 either.* If we don't fix it, we don't charge for it. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm obviously confused.
> 
> Aren't diagnostic charges simply to find the problem, and suggest a fix? not actually fix anything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now before you get your panties in a wad, this has happened only once in my 2 years. If the customer accepts the rewire, then yes its $4500. My daily rate for 2 electricians and a stocked box truck is $2000/day + materials. This will take all of 2 days. I don't care about per stop pricing. If someone else will do it cheaper then they can I have it. I get $2000/ day jobs plus consistently whether its a generator install or a 100 amp panel swap with a couple troubleshoot calls. I'll be honest. I would rather not have the rewire job. Its a complete pain in the ass. But if I am going to take it, its for what I'm worth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You, I , and everyone else here is worth what the market will bare, not what we would like to _THINK_ we're worth
> 
> You really need to place yourself in your customers shoes, which is _GOOD_ biz practice Frank
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Dnkldorf said:


> Andy, the only one you are kidding is yourself. 1. I don't believe you had the capital set aside for the advertising budget needed to achieve such numbers in such a short time. You are a new business, less than 2 yrs...right? 2. You claim you base your pricing on averages. Averages that you know you don't have, because you haven't been in business very long. This means you must of based these averages on someone elses numbers. If that is the case, just come out and say it. Don't claim they are based on your stats.... 3. Back to the averages thing. You come across a problem you can't figure out within this average time and cost, and you bail. You gave up, and left. How does that figure into your averages? According to your numbers, this happens 10% of the time. (9 out of 10) 4. You claim it costs a lot of money to train techs, and that is why your overhead is so much, and why you need to charge a premium price for your services. Sounds fine in theory, but I think you know where I am going with this, so I'll stop..... 5. Look, you like flat rate because you hide your labor rate, it's that simple. All the rest is fluff, sizzle if you want to call it that. Just stand right up and say it next time someone asks, they don't need nonsense and BS.


I'm sorry, you made me chuckle. I will gladly answer them one at a time. 1. You are right. I didn't have the capital for an advertising budget to justify those sales numbers. Actually my sales were closer to $550,000. I attribute that to first page ranking on Google - Free, and Generac's infomercial that provided close to 70 generator leads that I sold 20 of - Free. Now I do pay for Angies List, YP.com and HomeAdvisor so between all that, I was able to reach my numbers. 2. I do have averages. Annually, Monthly, weekly, and daily. We receive 5-10 calls a day. Out of those we usually get 1 troubleshoot calls a day. Sooooo averages say 1 x 5 days x 50 weeks = 250 troubleshoot calls a year. There are many days where we'll get 2-4 troubleshoot calls. Now I will admit I am not scientific about it. But when 95% of those calls are 15-30 min calls max, then its safe to say I can figure out averages. I am basing everything off of my own stats. Again, not scientific. 3. I never mentioned (9 out of 10) I mentioned that 95% of the time the call will take 15-30 min, but what I haven't said is that 4% of the time it will take us up to 1 hour, and and probably .01% where we don't find the problem and give the customer options to circumvent the problem area. 4. I don't remember talking about what it costs me to train a tech. You may be confused with someone else. I hardly posts on here anymore. I'll probably go another couple months without posting soon. I don't remember discussing overhead either. Actually my overhead is quite low. I have $1000/mo rent for my shop, and spend $1500/mo on advertising. The other stuff is insurance, payroll, and all the other normal overhead costs. 5. I love flat rate. I look at 2-4 jobs a day for proposals. I price them out for the most part on site. It's easy. 1 hour jobs costs $350 + materials. 2 hour jobs costs $650 +. 3 hour jobs costs $900 +, half day jobs costs $1000 and full day jobs costs $2000 +. No programs, no gimmicks........no BS.


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> No programs, no gimmicks........no BS.



Until you explain your _diagnostic shtick_ a little clearer, you'll have to pardon my stance Frank

On the consumer end, being consistent is key

~CS~


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> Until you explain your diagnostic shtick a little clearer, you'll have to pardon my stance Frank
> 
> On the consumer end, being consistent is key
> 
> ~CS~


When a customer calls for a troubleshoot they are happy to actually be speaking to me rather than a call center , I get there info and then tell them the troubleshoot call is $249. This includes a device or wiring in a box repair whether it's a breaker or receptacle. 9 out of 10 times they are more than willing.


----------



## svh19044

This is such an odd argument. Im flat rate, but those numbers are rooted in t&m. I can quote a job either way and 99 percent of the time it will be within a couple percent of the other. I just find that most people prefer a quoted number.

For things like troubleshooting, its going to be t&m up until a point where there is another option (new circuit is cheaper than three hours of troubleshooting why one recep isnt working as an example obviously a bit more complicated than that sounds).

Of course there are jobs I make out with on flat rate (fixture r&r).


----------



## 10492

FranklinsApprentice said:


> When a customer calls for a troubleshoot they are happy to actually be speaking to me rather than a call center ,


Name 3 Electrical Contracting companies, found on google, in your immediate area, that use call centers.

STOP THE BS....


----------



## 10492

svh19044 said:


> This is such an odd argument. Im flat rate, but those numbers are rooted in t&m.



Say it ain't so....T&M is used to achieve a flat rate number?

So it just the overhead and profit margins that make up the price differences?


Simple, and no fluff......I like it..


----------



## HARRY304E

Dnkldorf said:


> Say it ain't so....T&M is used to achieve a flat rate number?
> 
> So it just the overhead and profit margins that make up the price differences?
> 
> 
> Simple, and no fluff......I like it..


So you are saying you're paying for your own overhead?:blink:


----------



## yrman

Dnkldorf said:


> Say it ain't so....T&M is used to achieve a flat rate number?
> 
> So it just the overhead and profit margins that make up the price differences?
> 
> Simple, and no fluff......I like it..


Omg. This has been said this 1000x. Suddenly it clicks and makes sense. Its ok as long as its coming from somewhere else.

Folks....just because you personally are not achieving certain results does not automatically make a person who is a liar. 
Sour grapes.


----------



## 10492

yrman said:


> Omg. This has been said this 1000x. Suddenly it clicks and makes sense. Its ok as long as its coming from somewhere else.



I was being sarcastic..........

The "say it ain't so" pretty much gave that away...


----------



## 10492

HARRY304E said:


> So you are saying you're paying for your own overhead?:blink:



Harry, have breakfast. You're not thinking clearly again.


----------



## HARRY304E

Dnkldorf said:


> Harry, have breakfast. You're not thinking clearly again.


I'm fine bro, I'm almost ready for lunch considering I had my breakfast at 0500 EDT....:laughing:


----------



## rewire

Take your average time to do a task. You need on average 15 minutes to change a switch and .50c in material your hourly is $200 so you have $50 + $1.00 (double material) or $51.00 a level 1 repair.

trip charge $69.00
diagnostic $249.00
repair $51.00

total $369.00

x3 daily $1107.00

x5 week $5535.00

x50 weeks $276,750.00

x4 vans $I,107,000.00


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Dnkldorf said:


> Say it ain't so....T&M is used to achieve a flat rate number? So it just the overhead and profit margins that make up the price differences? Simple, and no fluff......I like it..


Wow, how did I piss you off? I didn't mean call center, I meant CSR. Customer Service Rep.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Dnkldorf said:


> Say it ain't so....T&M is used to achieve a flat rate number? So it just the overhead and profit margins that make up the price differences? Simple, and no fluff......I like it..


 Wow, how did I piss you off? I didn't mean call center, I meant CSR. Customer Service Rep.


----------



## 10492

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Wow, how did I piss you off? I didn't mean call center, I meant CSR. Customer Service Rep.


You didn't piss me off, I'm just real good at spotting BS.

You speak like you just viewed a get rich flat rate seminar, and believe everything they said, hook line and sinker.

And,

Attempting to brag on the internet about how much you make, how successful you are, how much sales you do in a month, and everything else, pretty much means your full of sh!t.


----------



## svh19044

I can't get over the idea that small shops actually pay for flat rate software.


----------



## 10492

svh19044 said:


> I can't get over the idea that people actually pay for flat rate software.



Troll....:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

svh19044 said:


> I can't get over the idea that small shops actually pay for flat rate software.


Worth every penny....:thumbsup:


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Dnkldorf said:


> You didn't piss me off, I'm just real good at spotting BS. You speak like you just viewed a get rich flat rate seminar, and believe everything they said, hook line and sinker. And, Attempting to brag on the internet about how much you make, how successful you are, how much sales you do in a month, and everything else, pretty much means your full of sh!t.


Dink, I am not trying to brag. Everything I have stated is true. The only reason I continue on this thread is to share that FR has been very successful for me. I worked real hard on my marketing to get the phone to ring. I get that you and CS are not going to believe me. I'm ok with that. But for others that are following and would like for me to share what has worked for me, I would be more than willing. Others have truly helped me here and I hope I can encourage others as well. I am in no way an expert. Yes, Ive only been doing this for 2 years. I've been in the black since the 2nd month of business. I read a lot and I call a lot of successful contractors. I do not consider myself successful. I still have to put in too many hours and consider once a week of throwing in the towel.


----------



## svh19044

HARRY304E said:


> Worth every penny....:thumbsup:


Eh

$99 per month isnt bad for multiple field techs, but it's the other features outside of actual pricing that would make it an ok deal.


----------



## HARRY304E

svh19044 said:


> Eh
> 
> $99 per month isnt bad for multiple field techs, but it's the other features outside of actual pricing that would make it an ok deal.


Makes life much easier, just send invoices by email, and it's all stored so you can keep track of it all.


----------



## svh19044

Can you adjust pricing?


----------



## HARRY304E

svh19044 said:


> Can you adjust pricing?


You sure can, plus you can have after hours rates construction rates,and a dispatch fee too, you create your own rates.

Also you can adjust the time to what you usually take to do a task .


----------



## sctracker

Once again, I'm a one man shop and using some really affordable software like es2 saves me time. That means that it saves me money. Saying that its rediculous for a one man shop to buy time saving tools is like saying its rediculous to buy a portaband instead of using a hacksaw. The less time I spend bidding, billing, taking notes etc the more time I spend actually doing jobs and making money.


----------



## btharmy

Dnkldorf said:


> You didn't piss me off, I'm just real good at spotting BS.
> 
> You speak like you just viewed a get rich flat rate seminar, and believe everything they said, hook line and sinker.
> 
> And,
> 
> Attempting to brag on the internet about how much you make, how successful you are, how much sales you do in a month, and everything else, pretty much means your full of sh!t.


Im pretty sure he wasn't bragging about anything. He was simply providing the information that some on here require in order to believe what he is saying. Taking him at his word is somehow impossible for some here. Just because a guy applys himself to his work and makes it successful, when others merely tread water, does not make him a liar.


----------



## btharmy

svh19044 said:


> I can't get over the idea that small shops actually pay for flat rate software.


The fact that the monthly cost of the software is less than one billable hour is a big factor. How much time will it save per month? How many more jobs will it generate per month if you can generate a price on the spot as opposed to going back to the shop (house) to figure and email a price. If the software fits in with the way you do business then it can pay for itself in no time. If it doesn't, you only invested $99 to find out for yourself. Not a major cost for the chance to see.


----------



## MTW

How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.

Food for thought. :whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> I worked real hard on my marketing to get the phone to ring. I get that you and CS are not going to believe me. I'm ok with that.


It's not a matter of believing you or not Frank

It's pointing out the _obvious_ FR flaws

and there's plenty of Sour Grapes to be had , with just a quick google



> Look at the Facts!
> 
> The higher prices are masked until it is too late – you’ve already paid your “show up fee” in order to find out the real price!
> 
> You then can either lose your money and call another plumber, or pay the increased rate.
> 
> Flat-rate pricing also means commission is paid to Plumbers. Do you really want a commissioned sales guy diagnosing the nature of the problem, knowing he is getting a cut?
> 
> The average service repair call takes under 2 hours – flat rate pricing costs you much more!



~CS~


----------



## rewire

MTW said:


> How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.
> 
> Food for thought. :whistling2:


Plumbers have been using flat rate for years and doing quite well. I have no problem payind their flat rate . I would never use a T&M plumber they wont be in business longer than the warranty and the only way they make money is drag the job out


----------



## svh19044

btharmy said:


> The fact that the monthly cost of the software is less than one billable hour is a big factor. How much time will it save per month? How many more jobs will it generate per month if you can generate a price on the spot as opposed to going back to the shop (house) to figure and email a price. If the software fits in with the way you do business then it can pay for itself in no time. If it doesn't, you only invested $99 to find out for yourself. Not a major cost for the chance to see.


Let me just set something straight.

When I was talking about flat rate software, I was basing that simply on the idea that you guys are paying monthly for a glorified estimating/billing program. That made absolutely zero sense to me when there are solid programs for doing that at a relatively inexpensive one time price. 

After I clicked on the link in Harry's signature, I am now assuming that you are all talking about the ES2 which is similar to programs like Field Aware. It's WAY WAY WAY more than just "flat rate software". I don't even know why they would want it to be referred to that. That phrase is doing them a serious disservice. 

So now I am looking at the ES2 setup and it is actually a decent price for what you get and in line with all of the other similar programs. I know someone that works for us that loses out on way more than $99/month do to his poor paper keeping habits. :laughing: And now I'm asking questions and I'm genuinely interested in ES2.


----------



## yrman

"


> How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.


In other words:

"Anyone who charges more than I do must be a ripoff"
or
"If I can't charge that much, neither should anyone else"
or
"No one in their right mind will ever pay a higher rate for services unless they are just plain stupid" 

"Everyone" knows there could not possibly be any difference in the service provided? Right? Of course right! No one should charge more than the going rate!

Everyone should only be able to charge what the CS's of the world consider the "going rate" because everyone knows that anyone who dares to charge more than the "going rate" is clearly a thief out to rip off little old ladies.

I know..... Maybe the government should regulate what businesses can charge so that no one can bitch about anyone who charges more than they do and *gasp* might dare to make more than they do. Oh the unfairness of it all. 

..................But employers should all pay at least $40/hr in wages, guarantee a 40 hour week, plus overtime, provide full benefits, retirement, paid vacations ....... and still only charge the "going rate" to the customers. :thumbsup:

Electrical service is a commodity right? There is no difference in quality or service from one company to another. All electricians are created equal, anyone who passed the test is as good as any other right? There are no hacks or skilled craftsmen, all are the same and should be paid the same right and charge the same? Right?

Hammer down that tall nail! Profit is a dirty word it seems. Anyone who tries to make one should be tarred and feathered.

Oh the horror of a free market system.


----------



## svh19044

HARRY304E said:


> You sure can, plus you can have after hours rates construction rates,and a dispatch fee too, you create your own rates.
> 
> Also you can adjust the time to what you usually take to do a task .


Is it $99/user/tech or $99/company?

(ETA never mind, $99/month for up to 3 users, $119/5 and $139 for 10+). It's a good price and I might just be giving it a try.


----------



## MTW

yrman said:


> "
> 
> In other words:
> 
> "Anyone who charges more than I do must be a ripoff"


I never said that. Personally I don't care if a plumber or electrician charges $500 per hour. Everyone is free to make their own decisions about what they pay and who they hire. 

The question is how many of you would pay those rates. If you're honest, you will have to admit that you wouldn't.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> It's not a matter of believing you or not Frank It's pointing out the obvious FR flaws and there's plenty of Sour Grapes to be had , with just a quick google ~CS~


This is not the FR system I have. The hourly rate is high for low hour jobs but evens out for full day jobs. I need to make $2000 per day. What do you suggest I do to make that if all I get is 4-5 troubleshoot calls which is all I can squeeze in a day. If I was a T&M guy, what should my hourly rate be?


----------



## svh19044

MTW said:


> I never said that. Personally I don't care if a plumber or electrician charges $500 per hour. Everyone is free to make their own decisions about what they pay and who they hire.
> 
> The question is how many of you would pay those rates. If you're honest, you will have to admit that you wouldn't.


I won't let people work at my own house on an hourly basis. It is way way way easier to get screwed or to screw with billing by the hour. Obviously there ARE times where T&M is pretty much a necessity (at least IMO, I'm not buying in to that tiered troubleshooting nonsense). 

Flat rate: you get a price, you accept a price, you pay the bill.

Hourly: you pay the bill?

Hourly is fine so long as you know the contractor is trustworthy. Again, I just find that most new customers would rather have a job quoted for an exact hard cost, perhaps because there are so many dishonest contractors.

Otherwise, I would have no problem billing T&M and when requested, I do so.


----------



## 10492

Steve, look into turbo bid also. I have it at the shop, but only use it for construction. One time price, and really flexible. Change it how you want, task wise. You can build Build your own sub assemblies, and tasks....it pretty useful if you keep up with it. 

For what you guys do, that I am aware of, you might be better off building your own excel program. (if you really need it). That's pretty easy too.


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> It's not a matter of believing you or not Frank
> 
> It's pointing out the _obvious_ FR flaws
> 
> and there's plenty of xxxxzxx to be had , with just a quick google
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Steve;

Lets stick to the rules regulations and standard of living inside of the united states, what is written in Australian media about how they want to lower the standard of living for their tradesmen does not cut it here, Just by posting such trash if prof that you are not interested in keeping the electrical trade as a profession and wish to drag it down to it's lowest form of low wage labor, seriously bro, how is a journeymen electrician supposed to make a good living if the owner can only charge a visible and low labor rate because of bull chit like this,,,,Is that what you want? Do you hate the electrical trade so much that you want wages to fall to the minimum?, Perhaps YOU should consider taking you tools and throwing them in the river!

If you're not with us raising the bar so that electricians can make a good solid living practicing the electrical trade, then it's time for you to retire,,,oh! wait,you have nothing saved because you've been just collecting "wages" for your business instead of building your own wealth, But worry not my friend those of us that are younger than you will help making sure your Social security checks show up on time.....


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone should only be able to charge what the CS's of the world consider the "going rate" because everyone knows that anyone who dares to charge more than the "going rate" is clearly a thief out to rip off little old ladies.
> "No one in their right mind will ever pay a higher rate for services unless they are just plain stupid"
> 
> 
> 
> One needs to be aware of their market. For instance when i flat rate, i'm aware what others will also charge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because there could not possibly be any difference in the service provided.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More when one is bagged on a bid _waaay_ higher than the competition , it is their only recourse to pull themselves up, especially by pulling others down Yrman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electrical service is a commodity right? There is no difference in quality or service from one company to another. All electricians are created equal, anyone who passed the test is as good as any other right? There are no hacks or skilled craftsmen, all are the same and should be paid the same right and charge the same?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you care to explain your special electrical skills that validate that statement Yrman? :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh the horror of a free market system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Warts and all my dear lass....Love it or leave it!
> 
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## svh19044

Dnkldorf said:


> Steve, look into turbo bid also. I have it at the shop, but only use it for construction. One time price, and really flexible. Change it how you want, task wise. You can build Build your own sub assemblies, and tasks....it pretty useful if you keep up with it.
> 
> For what you guys do, that I am aware of, you might be better off building your own excel program. (if you really need it). That's pretty easy too.



I actually played with Turbo Bid about 5 years ago and the software was pretty archaic. We have our own flat rate pricing/excel setup so I don't really need software for that. The field stuff that ES2 appears to come with is what I would be using it for. I could honestly do without ES2's built in flat rate databases and just use it for everything else, and the price is still well below other software subscriptions. While I have been pretty good with job pricing and record keeping, there have been multiple screwups lately by a couple people and some money has been lost. The scheduling/tasking options would be nice to have too.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> It's not a matter of believing you or not Frank It's pointing out the obvious FR flaws and there's plenty of Sour Grapes to be had , with just a quick google ~CS~


I have a day rate. I need to make it every day. If I get a full day job then the hourly is less than if the customer gives me a 2 hour job. I compete against TM guys all the time, and when it comes to full day jobs we are all close. But thats where a lot of TM guys struggle. If I were to follow there system and I had a full day of one hour troubleshoot calls, I would only make $500 if was lucky. But my business demands $2000/day to pay for my guys, my salary, and my overhead. Therefore my smaller jobs are more expensive. They have to be.


----------



## chicken steve

Dnkldorf said:


> Steve, look into turbo bid also. I have it at the shop, but only use it for construction. One time price, and really flexible. Change it how you want, task wise. You can build Build your own sub assemblies, and tasks....it pretty useful if you keep up with it.
> 
> For what you guys do, that I am aware of, you might be better off building your own excel program. (if you really need it). That's pretty easy too.


My better 1/2 is a software engineer , who's done wonders with Excel here Dnk. 

That said, does anyone remember _trade service_ , way before the 'net or PC's were a staple of biz? 

~CS~


----------



## svh19044

Chicken Steve;

Can you please point out the flaws of flat rate and why it is bad for a contractor?

"Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you". Do you believe it's some kind of gamble that the contractor always loses against? The law of averages steers us away from that happening. And we also win as many or more than we lose. 

Or is it bad for the customer? 

If a customer asks for a job quote, do you refuse and state that you only work hourly? 

If a flat rate contractor is asked for hourly, it's already built in to the idea of flat rate so it should come up pretty close. Therefor, it's rather easy to accept a T&M job. 

I guess it comes down to me not understanding your hatred for flat rate. I certainly don't hate T&M as it is essentially the same in my mind.


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> Therefore my smaller jobs are more expensive. They have to be.


An honest answer...:thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

svh19044 said:


> If a flat rate contractor is asked for hourly, it's already built in to the idea of flat rate so it should come up pretty close. Therefor, it's rather easy to accept a T&M job.
> 
> .


ahhh, not in my experience.... it isn't....:no:

not unless i'm charging _time sleeping _to my FR customers :whistling2:

you need to realize that the market is readily searchable, by anyone anywhere, anytime

If one can't find the _'going rate' _of any given tradesman, there are a multitude of entities on the net that will

~CS~


----------



## svh19044

chicken steve said:


> ahhh, not in my experience.... it isn't....:no:
> 
> not unless i'm charging _time sleeping _to my FR customers :whistling2:
> 
> you need to realize that the market is readily searchable, by anyone anywhere, anytime
> 
> If one can't find the _'going rate' _of any given tradesman, there are a multitude of entities on the net that will
> 
> ~CS~


That's great, you just gave a link to 2 million more links that talk about how much electricians (the employees) are paid by the hour. 

Are you going to avoid the question?



> Can you please point out the flaws of flat rate and why it is bad for a contractor?


----------



## HARRY304E

MTW said:


> How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.
> 
> Food for thought. :whistling2:


And now that most of the over the counter pharmaceuticals are gone and only available by prescription at the pharmacy, what used to be $20 is now $600 for the same thing, and now that you are forced to pay for insurance the price is $30,000 instead of $1,000 a year.

It's okay for them who are our customer to make those profits, but not us Right !

When my water heater blows up, I want it fixed right now and I will pay the first one that shows up at my door.

Besides I've got a good plumber....


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> If you're not with us raising the bar so that electricians can make a good solid living practicing the electrical trade, then it's time for you to retire,,...


All for it Harry :thumbup:

but you'll have to do better than some software created by a predator in a piss poor economy he couldn't hack it in :no:

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> All for it Harry :thumbup:
> 
> but you'll have to do better than some software created by a predator in a piss poor economy he couldn't hack it in :no:
> 
> ~CS~


Nobody is forcing me to use it, I simply read about it for a long while then decided to give it a shot, I found that It's a well built system and it works well for me, if you don't want to pay for it then do not sign up for it, it's that simple.


----------



## MTW

HARRY304E said:


> And now that most of the over the counter pharmaceuticals are gone and only available by prescription at the pharmacy, what used to be $20 is now $600 for the same thing, and now that you are forced to pay for insurance the price is $30,000 instead of $1,000 a year.
> 
> It's okay for them who are our customer to make those profits, but not us Right !
> 
> When my water heater blows up, I want it fixed right now and I will pay the first one that shows up at my door.
> 
> Besides I've got a good plumber....


:sleep1:


----------



## HARRY304E

MTW said:


> :sleep1:


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## chicken steve

svh19044 said:


> Are you going to avoid the question?


FR are just mini contracts svh

Now is it any secret what mentality we have on contract jobs ESPECIALLY those that might have unforseen pitfalls ?

We're looking at the quickest and cheapest solution, or we're going down change order avenue

Now if you've been an EC for a few of these, you know that you'll often have to eat those changes , and even if they ARE negotiated, they're often _'economically correct' _

Now we've produced this on a mini scale, where the incentive is to get in/out , and the faster one does it, the more the company _(as well as those under commission or profit share)_ make

Further, the jist is to hand out software to all the 'EC's in training' Jmen to jump through hoops with

This has call backs and bad name written all over it

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> Nobody is forcing me to use it, I simply read about it for a long while then decided to give it a shot, I found that It's a well built system and it works well for me, if you don't want to pay for it then do not sign up for it, it's that simple.


Go you then!

:thumbup:


~CS~


----------



## svh19044

chicken steve said:


> FR are just mini contracts svh
> 
> Now is it any secret what mentality we have on contract jobs ESPECIALLY those that might have unforseen pitfalls ?
> 
> We're looking at the quickest and cheapest solution, or we're going down change order avenue
> 
> Now if you've been an EC for a few of these, you know that you'll often have to eat those changes , and even if they ARE negotiated, they're often _'economically correct' _
> 
> Now we've produced this on a mini scale, where the incentive is to get in/out , and the faster one does it, the more the company _(as well as those under commission or profit share)_ make
> 
> Further, the jist is to hand out software to all the 'EC's in training' Jmen to jump through hoops with
> 
> This has call backs and bad name written all over it
> 
> ~CS~


I think I got it.

You suck at pricing jobs and estimating so you don't like flat rate. Is that the gist of it? If so, just say it.


----------



## chicken steve

svh19044 said:


> I think I got it.
> 
> .


I think you didn't. It cultivates hacks out of good electricians 

~CS~


----------



## svh19044

chicken steve said:


> I think you didn't. It cultivates hacks out of good electricians
> 
> ~CS~


:laughing:

You are really in a world of your own. Enjoy it.



chicken steve said:


> i just activated and passed inspection on a FR job that grossed $500 a man hr
> 
> ~CS~


----------



## Mshow1323

MTW said:


> How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.
> 
> Food for thought. :whistling2:



I personally, am more than happy to pay the quoted price I get from a plumber, or any other tradesman that comes to my door. If a contractor was to come to my door and say T&M at $100 per hour, the first question out of my mouth would be "how long, and how much material." You'd be an idiot not to. When was the last time you took a car to the mechanic and he said $125 an hour for as long as it takes? The answer is never, they give you an estimate and they stick to it.

In fact, here in Chicago T&M companies do not exist at all. Here, T&M is generally reserved for employees and moon lighters. Why? Because telling a customer your rates are $135/hour would get you slapped. Just because some of us charge FR, does not automatically make us rip off artists, some of us understand the costs of running a business. 

Whether or not you involve yourself in ripping people off is an ethical issue, not a business plan issue. To group the 95% honest companies with the 5% dishonest companies because of a business plan is just plain ignorant.


----------



## Mshow1323

chicken steve said:


> I think you didn't. It cultivates hacks out of good electricians
> 
> ~CS~


Not always. Sometimes good people just want to earn good money. That includes salary, benefits, and keeping the company healthy. Don't assume that every company pays out with commission and profit sharing. A lot of what you say is true, but sometimes your assuming too much and grouping everyone into the "hack/rip off" group.


----------



## Classic_Toby

FranklinsApprentice said:


> I have a day rate. I need to make it every day. If I get a full day job then the hourly is less than if the customer gives me a 2 hour job. I compete against TM guys all the time, and when it comes to full day jobs we are all close. But thats where a lot of TM guys struggle. If I were to follow there system and I had a full day of one hour troubleshoot calls, I would only make $500 if was lucky. But my business demands $2000/day to pay for my guys, my salary, and my overhead. Therefore my smaller jobs are more expensive. They have to be.



This is a great point!!! Thank you...


Everyone that is using flat rate- are you going after the one time resi customer or repeats? What is your % of return customers? Can/Do you mix F/R T/M for different customers.

Also I do not understand why letting the customers know you have a high hourly rate is a bad thing? I don't see a difference in justifying lets say $125 per hour or $250 for what equals a two hour job. [expect for the fact someone might want to keep you at their house for an hour]

I understand FR TM are business models and we do what works best for us. As long as your doing what you want, that all that matters. I am just trying to get a better understanding of the FR side


----------



## yrman

About 35% of our revenue comes from repeat customers and referrals and we also do a lot of advertising because we are growing. Ultimately I'd like to see 50%. The % will depend on the size of your business and how long you've been around. Lots of people here get all or most of their business from repeats and referral. 

No matter how you slice or dice the prices you charge; in order to make a profit (which is the entire point of running a business) you MUST not only charge enough to cover the labor and materials (your direct costs), but also 100% of your overhead. Overhead includes every single expense that it costs you to run your business. That includes rent, utilities, insurance, auto expenses, TAXES (DON"T FORGET TAXES) printing, internet, paper, gas, accounting, all those unexpected expenses that ALWAYS crop up. ALL that stuff must be covered with the prices you charge your customer. You have to pay your bills no matter what and the only way you can do that is to charge enough to pay all your bills from the money that is left after labor and materials. BUT NET *PROFIT* IS WHAT IS LEFT AFTER ALL THAT. Profit is not what is left after labor and materials. That is your gross profit but then what about everything else? Ya gotta eat and pay rent and pay the gov etc...

The premise is that:
T/M works great if you will be in one place most of a day and can bill out 7 or 8 hours. If you can bill for most of a day, presumably your hourly rate will be enough to cover all your labor and overhead and then you put materials on top. 

If you are doing service work where you move from job to job and spend a lot of your day driving, talking to customers, and doing non-billable tasks like buying parts or writing estimates, it is very hard get enough billable hours to cover all expenses and make a profit. 

With service work, as a general rule most people can bill for approximately 1000 hours in a year instead of the 2,040 working hours. But, your overhead is exactly the same whether you are able to bill for most of your time or not. So the flat rate model takes all overhead plus your desired profit and divides it by 1000 hours which is your hourly rate. Since it's 1/2 the working hours the rates come out much higher- double or more than your rate if you could bill all day. BUT since you are not billing for 7-8 hours but more typically 3-5 hours it HAS to be (at least if you want to make a profit). 

So rather than bill at a rate that is way higher (and that no one would agree to) for short 1 or 2 hour service calls, you figure out the amount of time a task typically takes and price it upfront by the task rather than hourly. Some tasks are priced at fractions of an hour. Most customers won't pay an electrician $300/hr but they will pay $55 to have a receptacle replaced. 

"Ms. customer- I will install the blah blah and do blah for $750 and that includes all labor, materials and taxes" The customers generally like it because they know exactly what the job will cost. They are not watching the clock because it doesn't matter how long it takes you. 

Our company goal is 3.5 billable hours per man per day but our electricians usually work at least 8 hours. As an owner, it's pretty tough to pay a guy for an 8 hour day if you can only charge for 1/2 that time! Flat rate works for this because the higher hourly rates take the inefficiency of service work into the consideration. 

Most flat rate companies also have day rates which are much less and more in line with typical T/M hourly rates because on multi day jobs, you are in one place all day, not driving all over .

Think about it, small jobs HAVE to cost a lot more per hour. You still have to go in, talk, fill out paperwork, set up, do the work, clean up and get paid. Everything else besides the actual work still eats up your time whether you do a 40 minute job or a 6 hour job. It is that way most everywhere. Plus you have to drive from place to place which eats up even more time that you cannot bill for. (but your landlord doesn't care about that)

Lots of people use a combination. Again, Flat rate is just T/M sliced and diced to be quoted by the task or job instead of by the hour. In the end it's all the same. Hourly rate to cover labor, materials, overhead and PROFIT.

There are some jobs which only make sense to do as T/M but F/R works well for service work. 

Why some people think it's the devil is beyond me. For service work it makes a lot more sense. It's no different than giving a T/M price with a total NTE amount but you won't charge less if you get done quicker. However it it takes longer, then it's on you so knowing how long tasks take is key. 

That is where the F/R software helps. It has many common tasks already broken down by how long and materials costs. You can do the same with an excel spreadsheet if you are inclined to DIY.


----------



## Mshow1323

Classic_Toby said:


> This is a great point!!! Thank you...





> Everyone that is using flat rate- are you going after the one time resi customer or repeats? What is your % of return customers? Can/Do you mix F/R T/M for different customers.


Generally no matter which business model you use, repeat and referral customers had better be your bread and butter. My repeat and _direct referral_ customers are around 80%. Your name and reputation will be the driving factor. Advertising will get you noticed, but closing new customers is, has been, and always will be the hardest thing in business. 



> Also I do not understand why letting the customers know you have a high hourly rate is a bad thing? I don't see a difference in justifying lets say $125 per hour or $250 for what equals a two hour job. [expect for the fact someone might want to keep you at their house for an hour]


*Perception.* I as a consumer, would much rather have somebody tell me $250, rather than the open-ended $125/hour. I don't want to have to monitor a hired contractors multiple phone calls. *Perception.*



> I understand FR TM are business models and we do what works best for us. As long as your doing what you want, that all that matters. I am just trying to get a better understanding of the FR side


There is tons and tons of great literature on FR Pricing. On this forum alone, Flyboy, CaptainSparky, and yrman are some of the best I've learned from. In print, look for Ellen Rohr and Frank Blau.


----------



## Mshow1323

Also, CS rants about some of the people I mentioned as to not having any field experience, to which I answer who gives a f___? 

If I want to know tricks of the trade or have a code question, I'll ask him or another electrician. However, if I want help on the business side of equation, guess who I'm going to ask? The electrical side is easy, we've all been doing it for years, the business side...well I'm a trained electrician, now I want training in running a successful business.

I'll ask and search out answers from people that are trained and experienced in that given field.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Classic_Toby said:


> This is a great point!!! Thank you...
> 
> Everyone that is using flat rate- are you going after the one time resi customer or repeats? What is your % of return customers? Can/Do you mix F/R T/M for different customers.
> 
> Also I do not understand why letting the customers know you have a high hourly rate is a bad thing? I don't see a difference in justifying lets say $125 per hour or $250 for what equals a two hour job. [expect for the fact someone might want to keep you at their house for an hour]
> 
> I understand FR TM are business models and we do what works best for us. As long as your doing what you want, that all that matters. I am just trying to get a better understanding of the FR side


When you're a young company, you'll go after what ever you can get. My repeat/referral business is growing but still small. I rely more on new customers but it works because we get calls every day. 

The reason why you don't want to tell your hourly rate no matter if it's $80, $150, or $250 is human psyche. That customer will on average make no more than $50/hr, more than likely less. When you tell them your hourly rate, they can't help but think, "Damn that's such and such more than what I make!" They will not think of our overhead and costs of running a business. They will only see the number.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

Mshow1323 said:


> Also, CS rants about some of the people I mentioned as to not having any field experience, to which I answer who gives a f___?
> 
> If I want to know tricks of the trade or have a code question, I'll ask him or another electrician. However, if I want help on the business side of equation, guess who I'm going to ask? The electrical side is easy, we've all been doing it for years, the business side...well I'm a trained electrician, now I want training in running a successful business.
> 
> I'll ask and search out answers from people that are trained and experienced in that given field.


That's wisdom.


----------



## Maximumbob

yrman 

Do your guys get commission+salary? If they do, what checks are in place, especially as you grow your company, to keep them from pushing un-needed parts or service?


----------



## nrp3

I took some time to read the software site and I can see where they are coming from describing the customer's point of view. Thinking about when the van goes into the shop, knowing the price up front helps, gotten used to it being pricey, though I understand the costs.

Doing that small show tomorrow will be an interesting experiment. Sales hasn't really been my strong suit, though well enough to keep things going. Really feel better about looking at the job first and giving a number fairly quickly if not right then. See what happens.


----------



## MTW

Mshow1323 said:


> I personally, am more than happy to pay the quoted price I get from a plumber, or any other tradesman that comes to my door.


Of course, we all would. The question is would you pay significantly more for service from a flat rate company versus a contractor who gives a quoted price but isn't using a flat rate system?


----------



## 120/208

MTW said:


> Of course, we all would. The question is would you pay significantly more for service from a flat rate company versus a contractor who gives a quoted price but isn't using a flat rate system?


My customers do all the time and they keep calling us back. So yes people do all the time.


----------



## Mshow1323

MTW said:


> Of course, we all would. The question is would you pay significantly more for service from a flat rate company versus a contractor who gives a quoted price but isn't using a flat rate system?



That is not the question. The entire argument has been about FR or T&M. If you'd like to change the argument to FR Software and FR Paper we can. 
(FR Software is identical to "quoted price") 

FR Software and FR Paper are identical in calculating the work forces payroll. 
FRS and FRP are identical in calculating overhead.
FRS and FRP are identical in calculating a cost for a given task.
FRS and FRP are identical in calculating all business related costs.
FRS and FRP are identical in the final cost presented to a customer.

The only difference between FRS and FRP are how easily and quickly those numbers are inputed into your given computer or file cabinet.

What is your question?


----------



## nrp3

If the result is successful, what difference does it make, right?


----------



## dthurmond

MTW said:


> How many of you would hire an outrageously priced flat rate plumbing contractor to replace your water heater or fix your faucet or toilet? Likely none of you would, because you know they are a ripoff.
> 
> Food for thought. :whistling2:


Ha we're electricians no way we would even get a plumber to change our hot water heater we would DIY .


----------



## MTW

dthurmond said:


> Ha we're electricians no way we would even get a plumber to change our hot water heater we would DIY .


Of course. :laughing:

But anyone who says they would pay more than they have to is flat out lying (pun intended.)


----------



## nrp3

As much as I hate plumbing, I'll hack in my own water heater or replace my own faucets. More than that, I pick up the phone and call some one who knows what they are doing. Not touching the ac either.


----------



## dthurmond

nrp3 said:


> As much as I hate plumbing, I'll hack in my own water heater or replace my own faucets. More than that, I pick up the phone and call some one who knows what they are doing. Not touching the ac either.


I took some hvac courses at a tech school and the instructor said 80 percent of the problems were electrical . His numbers seem pretty close since I took over some hvac duties at work . I think most electricians could take care of most of there problems on there on .


----------



## nrp3

Agreed, and I have helped build some really nice systems too. However, that was working with people who knew what the controls do and when. That's what keeps me from messing with it too much.


----------



## Going_Commando

nrp3 said:


> As much as I hate plumbing, I'll hack in my own water heater or replace my own faucets. More than that, I pick up the phone and call some one who knows what they are doing. Not touching the ac either.


Man, I'll attack all of that myself. Same with carpentry, excavation, you name it. I am waaay too cheap to pay another tradesman to do work for me. :laughing:


----------



## FrunkSlammer

If other tradesmen are anything like me, they're overpriced and under skilled. :laughing:


----------



## yrman

Maximumbob said:


> yrman
> 
> Do your guys get commission+salary? If they do, what checks are in place, especially as you grow your company, to keep them from pushing un-needed parts or service?


They get an hourly base plus monthly commissions. Right now we are still small and the guys we don't have issues with this, but its something we do worry about for the future. We hire for electrical skill not sales skill so that helps and we also do a lot of training and constantly talk about putting the best interest of the customers first. We do review most jobs with the techs and know how long work should take relative to the price. We will definitely question any job that seems out of whack for revenue vs time. We're very sensitive to making sure the customer feels they got value for the money they spent. We get a lot of good jobs but also plenty of $200-300 jobs too.

My first question at the end of each day when we talk about jobs is was the customer happy. I think a lot hinges on the culture of the company and we are working hard to keep the focus on the customer. Right now we are in a good spot but with growth comes change so as we grow we'll have to put checks in place.


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> Also, CS rants about some of the people I mentioned as to not having any field experience, to which I answer who gives a f___?
> 
> .


You might start paying attention if they gave your co a bad name Mshow

Which is exactly what FR software in the hands of inexperience can amount to

When they're told that _every event_ can be and will be managed by it , it becomes a crutch....one that's_ easily _kicked out from under them btw :thumbsup:

Notice how the die hard FR'ers here (in past threads mostly) claim they don't _'bid'_ :whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## nrp3

In doing service work, I think if I get in six billable hours a day, I have done well. The other two, as mentioned are tied up in supply house runs, phone, the factors mentioned by others. $2k a day seems like a lofty goal. I figured if I was getting that a week, I was doing well. This is working by myself and the help is on jobs that they can stay at all day. Not being critical. Intrigued.


----------



## chicken steve

As long as your books are in the black, your fine nrp3

FR can help with some of those serv calls, especially if you can upsell well

life safety stuff, serv upgrades, smoke jobs, etc , one can $ them all out @ bid rates:thumbup: I do it all the time, get some years after i'm gone...

btw, this is also what the footbridge cabal insists _noobs _ engage in , and an _easy_ kill if you've any field experience past a piece of software :whistling2:

best fishes!

~CS~


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

nrp3 said:


> In doing service work, I think if I get in six billable hours a day, I have done well. The other two, as mentioned are tied up in supply house runs, phone, the factors mentioned by others. $2k a day seems like a lofty goal. I figured if I was getting that a week, I was doing well. This is working by myself and the help is on jobs that they can stay at all day. Not being critical. Intrigued.


When it was just me in the truck, working out of my house, my daily goal was $900. When I hired a helper, it became $1200. When I hired another electrician, bought my Tacoma, and got a shop, it went to $2000/day. Ultimate goal is $3000/day which can be achieved if I pick up a few troubleshoot calls while my guys are installing a generator or doing a service upgrade.


----------



## chicken steve

Go you Frank :thumbsup:

It comes down to P/E ratio, and if you've assumed the _overhead_ , and need to crunch #'s to keep it in the black , there's no shame in asking a $$$ for that

~CS~


----------



## Mshow1323

chicken steve said:


> As long as your books are in the black, your fine nrp3
> 
> *FR can help with some of those serv calls, especially if you can upsell well
> 
> life safety stuff, serv upgrades, smoke jobs, etc , one can $ them all out @ bid rates:thumbup: I do it all the time, get some years after i'm gone...*
> 
> btw, this is also what the footbridge cabal insists _noobs _ engage in , and an _easy_ kill if you've any field experience past a piece of software :whistling2:
> 
> best fishes!
> 
> ~CS~


Service call prices are totally different than Bid Prices.

Services calls involves fixing a loose receptacle, hanging a ceiling fan, fixing an inoperable switch.

Bid Work is much more intensive, smokes, service upgrades, under cabinet lighting, recessed cans.

Service work is based on 1000 billable hours or 100% of our base hourly rate
Bid work generally gets 1500-1800 billable hours or 75%-90% of our base rate

It's all based on efficiency, if we're at a job for an entire day we can spread those same overhead costs, over the span of more billable hours. Effectively, the longer we're at a job the lower our billable hour rates. It has a direct correlation.

But you know all this, because you have used it in the past...

You have two different issues you're arguing against.
1. the flat rate system, which you don't seem to be totally against
2. flat rate software, or book

I can understand the 2nd. Everybody should be versed in the system before they engage in the crutch. We all should have a pen and paper and figure out, *and understand* our actual cost before we have anybody (software) tell us what they are. 

And if that is your stance, I can understand it, my father and his cabinet business have the same hesitations.


----------



## Tiger

yrman said:


> We get a lot of good jobs but also plenty of $200-300 jobs too.


I'm surprised about this part. I consider the $200-300 jobs as losses even though I have run my share of $49 calls. Many of the contractors on this forum have minimums in the $200-300 range. A minimum or no-sale usually ends up an hour including travel so I'm curious what you would consider break-even. I'm not a great numbers guy so I'm never sure what would be included in calculating the service...certainly vehicle costs and tech costs.


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> You might start paying attention if they gave your co a bad name Mshow
> 
> Which is exactly what FR software in the hands of inexperience can amount to
> 
> When they're told that _every event_ can be and will be managed by it , it becomes a crutch....one that's_ easily _kicked out from under them btw :thumbsup:
> 
> Notice how the die hard FR'ers here (in past threads mostly) claim they don't _'bid'_ :whistling2:
> 
> ~CS~


So giving a grand total price is not a Bid?:blink:


----------



## MTW

Flat rate is much easier to pull off with plumbing than it is with electrical. There are far fewer variables with plumbing and HVAC and the work is straightforward. Hence why FR is pretty much a joke with electrical work.


----------



## captkirk

I flat rate 99 percent of my work. Its worked out pretty well for me. If you're experienced enough you know how long certain jobs are going to take. People wanna know how much something is going to cost them they don't want to hear well it's going to be 125 per hour not to exceed 3000 yada yada yada


----------



## Tiger

MTW said:


> Flat rate is much easier to pull off with plumbing than it is with electrical. There are far fewer variables with plumbing and HVAC and the work is straightforward. Hence why FR is pretty much a joke with electrical work.


Most FR in residential service is a big yawn...ceiling fan, GFCI, switch, add a circuit in the basement, dryer circuit above a basement, fishing wires, replacing light fixtures, etc. Anyone can do it. The hardest item to FR is diagnostics. Will I find THE PROBLEM in a few minutes or a few hours? It is SO SCARY.

So focus on diagnostics in FR with this very old point. As you gain experience in diagnostics you find the problem sooner. You charge $100/hour and you find the problem in an hour. Next month you find the same problem in a half hour. With T&M you got paid $100 last month, this month you got paid $50. In this world an apprentice would earn more for the company than a journeyman.

So generally diagnostics in FR are set high. If you find most problems in less than an hour you set the fee at an hour. Harder ones at 3 hours, or whatever. With experience you can guess the hard ones. If you run into one at 7 hours as I did ONCE, it is OK because of averages.


----------



## yrman

Tiger said:


> I'm surprised about this part. I consider the $200-300 jobs as losses even though I have run my share of $49 calls. Many of the contractors on this forum have minimums in the $200-300 range. A minimum or no-sale usually ends up an hour including travel so I'm curious what you would consider break-even. I'm not a great numbers guy so I'm never sure what would be included in calculating the service...certainly vehicle costs and tech costs.


Yeah we don't love those either but what can you do? Sometimes it is what it is. As long as they get in and out quickly those little jobs can still add up to a respectable day.

Our goals are $1200/ day / man. We have had guys that are very challenged to reach that and others who easily hit $2000-$4000 per day, day in and day out.

The main difference is in their attitude about the idea of selling work. Some guys feel bad about discussing prices and always look for the least expensive and minimal repair for a single issue and dont feel comfortable offering more expensive, permanent solutions. The ones who sell work spend time discussing the big picture and are not afraid to discuss multiple options and offer suggestions that address the big picture. 

Sometimes a small repair can turn into a really nice job. Perfect example is an outage caused by a loose backstabbed outlet. One guy will diagnose the issue and replace the outlet and walk out with $181. Another one will discuss the problems caused by these outlets and educate the customer about overloaded circuits in older homes and check out the panel and the customer will opt to re-device the whole house, add new circuits and maybe even upgrade their service or do a panel restoration. That guy might turn that job into $3000. Some customers will go for the permanent fix and others for the bandaid but you never know if you don't at least discuss it. Thats the biggest difference we see between an $800/ day guy and a $3000/ day one. 

Tech A might discuss all the solutions and say "this is the permanent fix, if you ever want to do it one day let us know". 
Tech B will discuss the exact same solution and give the same price but he says "We are here now and can take care of this for you once and for all TODAY. We can do A,B, or C. What would you like us to do today". 
Thats the main difference between a few hundred or thousands per day in service work. Its not about pressure or up-sells but educating customers and offering choices. 


The information is true and accurate but one feels bad about talking about it and the other believes that educating the customer and offering solutions is good service. (and doesn't feel bad about discussing work that costs thousands not hundreds) Many but not all customers will WANT to take care of everything at once. And, just because YOU personally might not want to or be able to spend that kind of money doesn't mean no one else will.


----------



## captkirk

Tiger said:


> Most FR in residential service is a big yawn...ceiling fan, GFCI, switch, add a circuit in the basement, dryer circuit above a basement, fishing wires, replacing light fixtures, etc. Anyone can do it. The hardest item to FR is diagnostics. Will I find THE PROBLEM in a few minutes or a few hours? It is SO SCARY.
> 
> So focus on diagnostics in FR with this very old point. As you gain experience in diagnostics you find the problem sooner. You charge $100/hour and you find the problem in an hour. Next month you find the same problem in a half hour. With T&M you got paid $100 last month, this month you got paid $50. In this world an apprentice would earn more for the company than a journeyman.
> 
> So generally diagnostics in FR are set high. If you find most problems in less than an hour you set the fee at an hour. Harder ones at 3 hours, or whatever. With experience you can guess the hard ones. If you run into one at 7 hours as I did ONCE, it is OK because of averages.


What you see as a problem I see as money...


----------



## Tiger

captkirk said:


> What you see as a problem I see as money...


I used to work with a GC who had his roots in paving. I asked how he could tolerate the smell. He said "It smelled like money".


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> So giving a grand total price is not a Bid?:blink:


What i meant is, many FR'ers will give a _'grand total price'_, but also refuse to have it bid _against_ Harry

These , ironically but to no surprise, are usually the sorts advocating the free market....

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> What i meant is, many FR'ers will give a _'grand total price'_, but also refuse to have it bid _against_ Harry
> 
> These , ironically but to no surprise, are usually the sorts advocating the free market....
> 
> ~CS~



Please explain the part about refusing to have it bid against? Not sure what you mean?


----------



## svh19044

chicken steve said:


> What i meant is, many FR'ers will give a _'grand total price'_, but also refuse to have it bid _against_ Harry
> 
> These , ironically but to no surprise, are usually the sorts advocating the free market....
> 
> ~CS~


What in the world (or should I say, what in YOUR world) are you talking about?


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> First off, almost anything can be FR'ed Mshow.
> 
> That's the entire _shtick_, put solid prices on everything asked of us
> 
> You'll excuse me if i forgo the semantical argument over terminology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have two different issues you're arguing against.
> 1. the flat rate system, which you don't seem to be totally against
> 2. flat rate software, or book
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand the 2nd. Everybody should be versed in the system before they engage in the crutch. We all should have a pen and paper and figure out, *and understand* our actual cost before we have anybody (software) tell us what they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When i went thru my apprenticeship, they didn't allow calculators. The instructors i had would give it to us , _if we were close_.....
> 
> It's very similar with any biz tool, you've got to have it in your head first, the tool simply lending itself as an adjunct only.
> 
> But my stance is a little more than the tool itself
> 
> It;s how biz folks _use it_ to run their biz
> 
> Right now we've two rising stars in my neck of the woods, they are literally buying out all their local competition , giving their biz _'friends' _close to retirement a shluffy foreskin position. (stop me if you've heard ET posters foisting this avenue...:whistling2
> 
> Easy to do in a small pond and/or economically depressed area btw :thumbsup:
> 
> They've invested in new vans w/wrap arounds, run full page or radio ads, dress their men up in spankin' new uniforms, making sure they shave daily, along with breast awareness booties and cha cha , etc etc ad nausem.
> 
> They've assumed insane overhead, and are out to pull down as much of it as they can. And, they'll upsell and flat rate absolutely _anything_ they can
> 
> I'm ok with all this, until (and here's your *perception *back at you) they try and go down_ 'we're better that the rest'_ animal farm mentality , because the public outs their rates as higher than the rest of their competition.
> 
> Now _who _in this thread, may i ask, is howling like a wounded farm animal about being _'better_'? ,
> 
> And _who _is simply saying truthfully he's got a large biz, with lots of overhead to consider? :thumbsup:
> 
> Note how the noisy ones simultaneously declare themselves proletariats? Note how any CL, Homeadvisor, Angie's etc sparky is _always _put down by them?
> 
> Think on _that_ please
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## chicken steve

svh19044 said:


> What in the world (or should I say, what in YOUR world) are you talking about?


Just go away! 

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> Please explain the part about refusing to have it bid against? Not sure what you mean?




You'll need to ask the diehard FR's here 120 

They, in past threads, have stated bids _(meaning contracting for work against their competitors)_ is way low on their list 

Of course, this entails a bit of _honesty_, so don't hold your breath :whistling2:

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> You'll need to ask the diehard FR's here 120
> 
> They, in past threads, have stated bids _(meaning contracting for work against their competitors)_ is way low on their list
> 
> Of course, this entails a bit of _honesty_, so don't hold your breath :whistling2:
> 
> ~CS~


To me, it sounds like your not so much against FR pricing as you are against some of the methods associated with how some go about doing it. Is this an accurate statement?


----------



## Mshow1323

chicken steve said:


> What i meant is, many FR'ers will give a _'grand total price'_, but also refuse to have it bid _against_ Harry
> 
> These , ironically but to no surprise, are usually the sorts advocating the free market....
> 
> ~CS~


Come on guys, even you can decipher that one.



> Please explain the part about refusing to have it bid against? Not sure what you mean?





> What in the world (or should I say, what in YOUR world) are you talking about?


He's clearly talking about a service tech that walks in and gives a price.
Tech:"We can do this now."
Customer: "I want to get some other opinions"
Tech: "Now or never"

CS, you had me up until this:


> Note how the noisy ones simultaneously declare themselves proletariats? Note how any CL, Homeadvisor, Angie's etc sparky is always put down by them?
> 
> Think on that please


Now I realize you're not talking about me but a lot of us use CL, HA and Angie's List. I am one of them. I get a fair amount of work from Craigslist, as terrible as the close rate is on them, I still utilize it as a source of revenue.


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> To me, it sounds like your not so much against FR pricing as you are against some of the methods associated with how some go about doing it. Is this an accurate statement?


*>>>>>>yes<<<<<<*

and thank you!


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Mshow1323 said:


> Now I realize you're not talking about me but a lot of us use CL, HA and Angie's List. I am one of them. I get a fair amount of work from Craigslist, as terrible as the close rate is on them, I still utilize it as a source of revenue.


No, we aren't targeting you Mshow, but there are many who _will_ target you, and they'll do so because _they_ feel threatened 

This is due to all our lovely social media being one of the _best_ sources for the general public to decipher the ever _evil_ FR killing _'going rate'_

~CS~


----------



## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> *>>>>>>yes<<<<<<*
> 
> and thank you!
> 
> 
> ~CS~


You could have said that in post number2 and then they could of closed this thread.:laughing:


----------



## svh19044

chicken steve said:


> *>>>>>>yes<<<<<<*
> 
> and thank you!
> 
> 
> ~CS~


And T&M has never milked the customer. Nope, never. 

The problem is that your argument is irrational and not based on the real world.


----------



## Mshow1323

120/208 said:


> You could have said that in post number2 and then they could of closed this thread.:laughing:


you didn't ask in post number one :whistling2:


----------



## Mshow1323

svh19044 said:


> And T&M has never milked the customer. Nope, never.
> 
> The problem is that your argument is irrational and not based on the real world.





> Just go away!
> 
> ~CS~
> __________________
> I live in my own mind


 :whistling2:


----------



## 120/208

Mshow1323 said:


> you didn't ask in post number one :whistling2:


Okay, he should have said it by post #6.:laughing:


----------



## rewire

The chickenone opposes the attempt by those who FR to add value to their product by doing certain things that are above and beyound what the average construction EC is willing to provide. A fone restaurant csn sell their hambuger fare for $100 while the local McD is $1 . The "going rate " has absolutely no affect on the pricing but all the bells and whistles id what determines the perceived value in the customers eye.


----------



## Mshow1323

rewire said:


> The chickenone opposes the attempt by those who FR to add value to their product by doing certain things that are above and beyound what the average construction EC is willing to provide. A fone restaurant csn sell their hambuger fare for $100 while the local McD is $1 . The "going rate " has absolutely no affect on the pricing but all the bells and whistles id what determines the perceived value in the customers eye.



edit out *perceived*, it sounds slimy, lol


----------



## yrman

Mshow1323 said:


> Come on guys, even you can decipher that one.
> 
> He's clearly talking about a service tech that walks in and gives a price.
> Tech:"We can do this now."
> Customer: "I want to get some other opinions"
> Tech: "Now or never"
> 
> CS, you had me up until this:
> 
> Now I realize you're not talking about me but a lot of us use CL, HA and Angie's List. I am one of them. I get a fair amount of work from Craigslist, as terrible as the close rate is on them, I still utilize it as a source of revenue.


We do not EVER say "now or never". We do ask if they want to get service work done today.....isn't that why we went out? We have no problem with customers checking with other companies. If they are price sensitive they may choose someone else. It happens all the time. But just as often they call us back and say "your price was higher but we felt more confident in your company so choose to go with you.". We ALL win some and lose some.

I think he is referring to what we call "bid work" at our company.

For us that is when a GC is bidding out a job and wants us to bid the electrical or when the city or anyone for that matter is sending out specs and taking bids from multiple contractors. We pass on those opportunities because we are not set up to bid them.....its just not what we do as a resi service company. Just like we only work cod and only rarely for GCs. We almost never work as a sub contractor. We don't have the staffing to do those jobs, the experience in that area to bid them competitively or the time it takes to put involved written bids together OR the willingness to work at the margins required to win that type of work. We are a service company and focus on service work. Service work is a necessary evil for lots of ECs and bid work is their bread and butter. We only focus on service and pass on the rest.
CS cant stand our point of view on this. (gee what a surprise)
We are just not set up for it and its not what our company does.


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> We only focus on service and pass on the rest.
> CS cant stand our point of view on this. (gee what a surprise)
> We are just not set up for it and its not what our company does.


Cutting out the diversity of work you_ could_ have , for a narrow market of work you _do have_ isn't what i subscribe to Yrman

But that choice you've made isn't simply because you don't _care_ to do it, it's because you _can not compete_ with the method of operation footbridge has sold you on

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

BTW Mshow

i've signed up on CL :zorro:

what have i got to loose? :thumbup:

wouldn't it be ironic if i contracted a few FR jobs , sigth unseen, $$$ per smoke , etc.....?:devil2:

~CS~


----------



## nrp3

I have been reading the articles written in one of the trade mags by one of the Mister Sparky people. He states that you really need to have seperate divisions for service and construction. I try to set up the help on the jobs where they can stay all day and I do the running around doing service if there is any to be had. It seems to work.


----------



## rewire

chicken steve said:


> Cutting out the diversity of work you_ could_ have , for a narrow market of work you _do have_ isn't what i subscribe to Yrman
> 
> But that choice you've made isn't simply because you don't _care_ to do it, it's because you _can not compete_ with the method of operation footbridge has sold you on
> 
> ~CS~


here is where your logic fails ,Yrman made the choice to focus into a specific market segment only then did Yrman seek to find a method to maximize profitability in that segment. The method Yrman decided upon was a method designed to work with the type of work Yrman would choose to pursue. If Yrman choose another type of work to pursue then I have no doubt Yrman would seek a method that would fit that choice.


----------



## chicken steve

Mr Patrick Kennedy nrp3

He has some valid points to offer

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

rewire said:


> here is where your logic fails ,Yrman made the choice to focus into a specific market segment only then did Yrman seek to find a method to maximize profitability in that segment. The method Yrman decided upon was a method designed to work with the type of work Yrman would choose to pursue. If Yrman choose another type of work to pursue then I have no doubt Yrman would seek a method that would fit that choice.


Seems to me Yrman made the decision to be _stuck _in a narrow market rewire

so much for the golden contractual goose, eh?

don't you read trade mags?

~CS~


----------



## yrman

I wonder about something the great feathered one said a few posts up.

It claims that all these dang newfangled newcomers to the market are going out and spending lots of money on their marketing and overhead and charging people - especially all the little old ladies :001_huh:- out the wazoo and ripping off the general public. He says they claim to be better when in fact they are sending out green apprentices with FR books to charge inflated prices for inferior work. I believe that is the gist of it.

So IMHO it stands to reason that this would open up _great opportunities_ for the feathered ones operation. If the new comers (or repackaged established companies) are such an overpriced rip off, surely the poor stupid public will be raising an outcry. If not yet, then certainly soon. This would not hurt his company but he should be _thriving_ and growing because all those customers will prefer the going rate T/M pricing right? He should be that much more able to capitalize on having much lower prices. Right? Everyone can research prices and will make their decisions based strictly on the price. Yes?

All those rip off companies should leave a trail of pissed off consumers dying to hire the low overhead, T/M going rate shop right? Seems logical eh?

Or if people actually buy into that phony image crap and are actully willing to pay the rip off inflated prices that FR companies charge, one could raise their own prices and improve their own margin? No? Or if one has much lower overhead and can therefor charge less, I'd imagine it's a great opportunity to win jobs against those dang corporate scoundrels left and right.

I can't imagine they will last long if the local market won't bear it or if they are that terrible at the work and that bad of a rip off. How DARE they spend money on marketing and overhead and then have the audacity to try and recover it in their prices. The NERVE of some people!

It stands to reason there will be even MORE opportunity for the old school, going rate companies that have been around right? Especially since everyone buys only base on price. Isn't that what a few here keep insisting? 

This sounds like exact the opposite problem of when say a Walmart comes to town and drives out the local small mom and pop shops because they can't compete with Walmarts much lower prices and tiny margins. It drives the small shops out.

Here the newcomer charges MUCH MORE than the old companies. (and supposedly delivers less too). Why isn't that a _GREAT OPPORTUNITY_ for the lower priced shops? He should be cleaning up right? If the economy is so horrible in the area why are these dumb azzes investing all that cheese into that business model? 

just sayin....:whistling2:


----------



## rewire

nrp3 said:


> I have been reading the articles written in one of the trade mags by one of the Mister Sparky people. He states that you really need to have seperate divisions for service and construction. I try to set up the help on the jobs where they can stay all day and I do the running around doing service if there is any to be had. It seems to work.


We departmentalize so that we can see what is producing the best profit margin. What we found was although construction produced more revenue than service it cost us more.


----------



## nrp3

I'll take remodels as well, especially if it comes from other trades that I am used to working with. Those have been profitable just because of the customers that these guys bring and they are good people to work with. I have been working with one of these service based larger companies on the generator side and watched with interest on how they do business and what they charge.


----------



## chicken steve

rewire said:


> We departmentalize .


Been witness to a lot of that here, only prob is it's _long_ on the department, _short_ on the mental....:laughing:


~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

nrp3 said:


> I'll take remodels as well, especially if it comes from other trades that I am used to working with. Those have been profitable just because of the customers that these guys bring and they are good people to work with. .


I've been into a network of reno's here , same game.

Reno's can be good jobs , but there's always some sort of drama that seems to appear

We just turn it into a $$$ if we can :thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## yrman

Correct CS . We cannot compete in doing certain types of work. We can't compete there and do not choose to even try. There is enough revenue and profit for us in the niche we choose to put our time and resources into. We are a small shop and know our limitations. IMO it would be foolish to try and be all things to all people. We know where we want to be and focus on that.

Working in a narrow and specific niche is a deliberate choice that is the right one for _US_. Most of our competition chooses to go after a broader market. Who says one way has to be wrong and the other right? Not us. 

We don't do any new construction, we don't do industrial and we only do some light commercial and are quick to pass on work we are not as good at as other companies. There are a lot of things we don't do for many reasons. 

We don't aim to be the lowest price or the fastest like in construction. I like to work on good margins, not razor thin ones that depend on change orders. We don't want to be in a position where if the job goes sideways, we'll lose our azz.
We want to get paid when the work is complete and not wait for our money or maybe never get paid at all.

We pay reasonable wages and provide benefits to our employees. We are trying to get ahead, not just survive.

SO WHAT?


----------



## rewire

Our business model does not include being the lowest bidder


----------



## nrp3

Most of it comes with no prints made up on the fly. Always some challenges and there is often some extras to be sold, services especially when there isn't any space left for the job at hand. Good people to work with make it go smoother when everyone works together.


----------



## Tiger

chicken steve said:


> You'll need to ask the diehard FR's here 120
> ~CS~


I'll take one for the team and face the harsh the harsh judgement of chicken steve. I resemble those remarks.

Most of my work is referred and repeat. I paid my dues for a few decades to get it there. My advertising budget is $0 which is really stupid but it works for me. I don't do footbridge but I probably mimicked a website of someone that does.

So breathe easy and I'll tell you why I don't/can't bid competitively. 

People that do what every "hiring a contractor" article say by getting 3 or more quotes leaves me with a less than 50% chance of getting the project. Not very attractive to me. 

General contractors in my experience go with the cheapest contractor. I am convinced that GCs prey on contractors that don't understand their cost of business and are working below cost. Subs rust-bucket vans are typical evidence. Once in awhile I bid for a GC at cost or less and do one project. They typically ask for additional free work or push me into overtime hours to clear the project for someone who never shows the next day. They are never happy. Maybe they would be if I bid lower or did more free work.

As chicken steve has aptly pointed out, the additional overhead in our FR includes vehicle maintenance and replacement, health benefits, retirement benefits, etc. These are not typical for contractors in this area. A discussion on retirement benefits on forums like this will get crickets for a response. This "additional" overhead makes us non-competitive with GCs. So...

*You are so right chicken steve!*


----------



## nrp3

It has been all word of mouth for me. I bought my first print ad today. Did a small local business expo today. May have one generator sale, not as much traffic as I would have liked. Had a discussion with a friend of my parents about not understanding why people like myself would charge as much as we do compared to someone with his level of education. I didn't get into it, but said I was willing to take him on as a customer. Explain the business side later. My guess is he has been an employee all his life. Which is fine.


----------



## Tiger

nrp3 said:


> It has been all word of mouth for me. I bought my first print ad today. Did a small local business expo today. May have one generator sale, not as much traffic as I would have liked. Had a discussion with a friend of my parents about not understanding why people like myself would charge as much as we do compared to someone with his level of education. I didn't get into it, but said I was willing to take him on as a customer. Explain the business side later. My guess is he has been an employee all his life. Which is fine.


Most employees don't know the cost/value of benefits or even that their employer pays half of the payroll taxes.


----------



## nrp3

It wasn't the time or place to argue. Might have been counterproductive. Follows right along with the text on that software site though.


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

I too limit what I bid on. I get calls for rehabs all the time, but I refer them out. To do a rehab, I have to do them minimum, $10,000. Even then, I'm not too hip on getting those jobs, because I miss out on the calls that come in while my guys are working the rehab. The company I refer them to and most others will do them for $7000. I have no desire to bid on them anymore.


----------



## Tiger

FranklinsApprentice said:


> I too limit what I bid on. I get calls for rehabs all the time, but I refer them out. To do a rehab, I have to do them minimum, $10,000. Even then, I'm not too hip on getting those jobs, because I miss out on the calls that come in while my guys are working the rehab. The company I refer them to and most others will do them for $7000. I have no desire to bid on them anymore.


Sometimes when you stop chasing the little fish, a big fish jumps in your boat.


----------



## electricmalone

nrp3 said:


> I have been reading the articles written in one of the trade mags by one of the Mister Sparky people. He states that you really need to have seperate divisions for service and construction. I try to set up the help on the jobs where they can stay all day and I do the running around doing service if there is any to be had. It seems to work.


I am trying to accomplish this with my two guys, soon to be a third. The accounting dept is all set up for their end. I am catching resistance from an operational stance from my boss who runs the construction end of things. He keeps pulling my best guy to do fill in time on a sizable construction project he started before I pulled him to do service. It's leaving me short on labor. Baby steps, I was told. I'm pushing back, if they want this to work, I need independence.


----------



## Going_Commando

Well Steve, in case you haven't noticed, a very large percentage of contractors suck in one way or another. Talk to a lot of homeowners, and they complain about contractors not showing up when they say they will leave a mess, smash something and don't say anything, leave oil stains from their vehicle in the driveway, smell bad, look haggard, etc. The estimate comes in, the customer agrees and then when the final bill comes in it is double what the original estimate was for. These are commonplace and I hear it all the time. If a contractor is fully licensed, insured, a sparky shows up on time looking clean and professional, the customer is explained a price p, customer agrees, job gets done, the place is clean, and the electrician leaves with check in hand, what's not to like? If a contractor is like that, and the customer is satisfied, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't they charge more for their services if the customer is happy? That stuff costs money. Uniforms, newer trucks, clean tools, quality electricians, insurance, benefits, etc.

Obviously not all are like that, but I'm sure that Franklin is like that, Flyboy's company, and Yrman's company is like that. Sure, some FR service companies are scammers and whatnot, but there are plenty of contractors like that. Obviously this doesn't change the fact that FR service can be a solid business model

As far as overhead goes, advertising costs money. When you go for a niche market (as 1/2 of trade rag articles push, the other 1/2 pushing diversity) then you need to advertise to expose your company to as much of that niche market as possible to make it workable. The fact that Yrman and Flyboy's companies can support several dedicated office staff and bosses that don't need to put on the tools without being buried in debt spells success to me. If your idea of success is being 75 and crawling around attics and crawlspaces running cable and whatnot than that is fantastic for you, but it ain't my recipe.

For a guy who brags about applying logic to this discussion and bragging about your years of experience, it is pretty sad that a 25 year old has to spell out the logic and reasoning being spread around this thread even though it's practically plastered on a 100 foot tall billboard in your door yard.

New things aren't bad, and the dedicated residential service company with flat rate pricing is a newer idea in the electrician world. No one does it in my area, we are all in the old guard "Diversity is necessary, and FR is a scam." I hear that crap all the time, but times are changing. If you can secure a niche, be it resi service, commercial tenant up fits, whatever, then good for you. Specialization breeds efficiency. If you can roll with the punches, innovate, and can adapt with new technology, then long term should be no problemo.


----------



## chicken steve

yrman said:


> SO WHAT?


No biz guts, no biz glory...

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff

electricmalone said:


> I am trying to accomplish this with my two guys, soon to be a third. The accounting dept is all set up for their end. I am catching resistance from an operational stance from my boss who runs the construction end of things. He keeps pulling my best guy to do fill in time on a sizable construction project he started before I pulled him to do service. It's leaving me short on labor. Baby steps, I was told. I'm pushing back, if they want this to work, I need independence.


Keep pushing, it sounds like you have a good grasp on what you are trying to accomplish. I wish you good luck, but, I don't think you need it.


----------



## chicken steve

> Well Steve, in case you haven't noticed, a very large percentage of contractors suck in one way or another. Talk to a lot of homeowners, and they complain about contractors not showing up when they say they will leave a mess, smash something and don't say anything, leave oil stains from their vehicle in the driveway, smell bad, look haggard, etc.


Indeed so, as well as there are contractors who dwell in the superficial realm of _appearances_ due to their_ lack_ of expertise Commando :whistling2:

That said, you've inspired me to shave my _haggard old _mug this morning, but i'm not ridding myself of my leaky old truck w'_uncle buck_ option...:wheelchair:

And i'll be _dipped in dung _before you see me in pink breast awareness boot covers...




> The estimate comes in, the customer agrees and then when the final bill comes in it is double what the original estimate was for.


Well then, they simply _can't_ estimate, can they? :no: 

If you figure some piece of electronica is the proposed fix to this, you've stated my case best yet here.....THANK YOU!




> These are commonplace and I hear it all the time. If a contractor is fully licensed, insured, a sparky shows up on time looking clean and professional, the customer is explained a price p, customer agrees, job gets done, the place is clean, and the electrician leaves with check in hand, what's not to like? If a contractor is like that, and the customer is satisfied, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't they charge more for their services if the customer is happy? That stuff costs money. Uniforms, newer trucks, clean tools, quality electricians, insurance, benefits, etc.



Perhaps you could explain how *'Customer happiness'* via any given biz model occurs then Commando? 

I'm sure aspiring entrepreneurs _3 forums away_ will be all ascii ears 




> Obviously not all are like that, but I'm sure that Franklin is like that, Flyboy's company, and Yrman's company is like that. Sure, some FR service companies are scammers and whatnot, but there are plenty of contractors like that. Obviously this doesn't change the fact that FR service can be a solid business model


I never claimed FR _could not_ be a solid biz model Commando, what i did claim is i'm nobody's_ cheerleader_ , and have pointed out the obvious _flaws _to the model.

Now if the advocates here can't take a little piss on their parade, just imagine what the general public running through them like chocolate ex lax will do to them

They are _'the market'_ , those that try and distance themselves from it , or create their own _reality _of it, or are otherwise convinced to do so are doing their biz a _major_ disservice. 



> For a guy who brags about applying logic to this discussion and bragging about your years of experience, it is pretty sad that a 25 year old has to spell out the logic and reasoning being spread around this thread even though it's practically plastered on a 100 foot tall billboard in your door yard.


And you, as a prodigal son , offer exactly what here?:whistling2:



> New things aren't bad, and the dedicated residential service company with flat rate pricing is a newer idea in the electrician world.


Nope, it's actually older than the hills .

It's just been recycled and sold as software since the inception of the computer age

Please.....don't be such a tool , it's an embarrassment Commando.....:laughing:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> If your idea of success is being 75 and crawling around attics and crawlspaces running cable and whatnot than that is fantastic for you, but it ain't my recipe.


Decades ago i worked for a company who's owner was that 70ish man

Despite the delegation of many noobs like myself at the time, he made no bones about crawling _anywhere_ with a toolbelt.

His work ethic is something i try an emulate to this day, because he led by example.:thumbsup:

He lived the life of an electrician , and died one , because he loved this trade

Now if you're _suggesting_ there's some _shame_ in this, or shame in _not _evolving to growing an azz the shape of some executive office seat....*get out !*


~CS~


----------



## ponyboy

Going_Commando said:


> Well Steve, in case you haven't noticed, a very large percentage of contractors suck in one way or another. Talk to a lot of homeowners, and they complain about contractors not showing up when they say they will leave a mess, smash something and don't say anything, leave oil stains from their vehicle in the driveway, smell bad, look haggard, etc. The estimate comes in, the customer agrees and then when the final bill comes in it is double what the original estimate was for. These are commonplace and I hear it all the time. If a contractor is fully licensed, insured, a sparky shows up on time looking clean and professional, the customer is explained a price p, customer agrees, job gets done, the place is clean, and the electrician leaves with check in hand, what's not to like? If a contractor is like that, and the customer is satisfied, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't they charge more for their services if the customer is happy? That stuff costs money. Uniforms, newer trucks, clean tools, quality electricians, insurance, benefits, etc. Obviously not all are like that, but I'm sure that Franklin is like that, Flyboy's company, and Yrman's company is like that. Sure, some FR service companies are scammers and whatnot, but there are plenty of contractors like that. Obviously this doesn't change the fact that FR service can be a solid business model As far as overhead goes, advertising costs money. When you go for a niche market (as 1/2 of trade rag articles push, the other 1/2 pushing diversity) then you need to advertise to expose your company to as much of that niche market as possible to make it workable. The fact that Yrman and Flyboy's companies can support several dedicated office staff and bosses that don't need to put on the tools without being buried in debt spells success to me. If your idea of success is being 75 and crawling around attics and crawlspaces running cable and whatnot than that is fantastic for you, but it ain't my recipe. For a guy who brags about applying logic to this discussion and bragging about your years of experience, it is pretty sad that a 25 year old has to spell out the logic and reasoning being spread around this thread even though it's practically plastered on a 100 foot tall billboard in your door yard. New things aren't bad, and the dedicated residential service company with flat rate pricing is a newer idea in the electrician world. No one does it in my area, we are all in the old guard "Diversity is necessary, and FR is a scam." I hear that crap all the time, but times are changing. If you can secure a niche, be it resi service, commercial tenant up fits, whatever, then good for you. Specialization breeds efficiency. If you can roll with the punches, innovate, and can adapt with new technology, then long term should be no problemo.


You're 25?


----------



## captkirk

If a tradesman came to my house to replace my boiler and told me "well its gonna be 130 per hour plus the boiler and other material... Im not really sure how long it will take because you never know.." 
I would personally tell him im not interested. Number one I would think he is trying to fleece me, number two I wonder with all his experience why he cant just come up with a price and number three I would wonder if im paying for all his trips to the truck for a smoke, lunch break or what ever else he is doing on my time. 
Hell even when I bring my trucks to the dealership for maintenance they give me a firm price and stick to it. 

I can probably sell a 200 amp service for 2000 bucks and make my nut for the day but why in gods name would I do that when all my market research tells me that the AVERAGE price for my area is around 3-3500 dollars. why would I leave that money on the table...? and if I did it T and M I would probably be in the 1800-1900 dollar range.. 
You need to ask yourself why do you work for yourself... to be a honest fair business man and have everyone like you or to make money at market value and provide a good future for your workers and your family.
Not every electrician makes a good business man... You need to be an entrepenuer, manager and technician at the same time and some of you are stuck in the technician mentality.


----------



## captkirk

chicken steve said:


> Decades ago i worked for a company who's owner was that 70ish man
> 
> Despite the delegation of many noobs like myself at the time, he made no bones about crawling _anywhere_ with a toolbelt.
> 
> His work ethic is something i try an emulate to this day, because he led by example.:thumbsup:
> 
> He lived the life of an electrician , and died one , because he loved this trade
> 
> Now if you're _suggesting_ there's some _shame_ in this, or shame in _not _evolving to growing an azz the shape of some executive office seat....*get out !*
> 
> 
> ~CS~


No offense but imo that is your problem steve... you do this because you love it not because you want to make money... and you frown upon guys that want a little more out of it. I enjoy electrical work but damn man its hard work and I want to be compensated for it as do my guys... They want more than a job but a career with bennies and a future. That stuff costs money..


----------



## chicken steve

I would stick with your market research Cap'n :thumbsup:

I would also add to that, not to allow anyone else into a position where they dictate to you what the _'market' _is or is not :no:

This is exactly the fallacy of the FR $99 software, which equates to nothing more than a gateway drug for marketing predators :whistling2:

They will then play one _against_ their market, claiming any success as their baby, while insisting on more $$$ to mitigate one's failure

~CS~


----------



## captkirk

I do my own homework.. and have my own pricing structure developed over the years. Its worked pretty well for me. 
If your happy with the way you do business more power to you... and when I speak about what works for me its pretty much to my area... I have no idea what its like in Vermont or Arizona or Florida.. so take it all with a grain of salt.


----------



## chicken steve

captkirk said:


> No offense but imo that is your problem steve... you do this because you love it not because you want to make money... and you frown upon guys that want a little more out of it. I enjoy electrical work but damn man its hard work and I want to be compensated for it as do my guys... They want more than a job but a career with bennies and a future. That stuff costs money..


I like my work, and never claimed to have a bone for anyone who makes good on the trade Cap'n

I'm a proletariat from head to toe, as such you'll usually find me confronting those expressing themselves as _holier than thou_ in this venue, be it FR or union puffed chests 

Because they.......are not!

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

captkirk said:


> I do my own homework.. and have my own pricing structure developed over the years. Its worked pretty well for me.
> If your happy with the way you do business more power to you... and when I speak about what works for me its pretty much to my area... I have no idea what its like in Vermont or Arizona or Florida.. so take it all with a grain of salt.


Had you ended up in any other place, i'm sure you'd have done your homework there as well

There is no _fast track _to success, other than the lottery Cap'n

Most of the predators , the ones who claim they can be dumped into any city w/$100, and turn it into $1000 overnight are those who _failed_ at what dilligent successful biz men do daily

~CS~


----------



## captkirk

Being in business and not knowing what your competitors are charging is bad business steve... im not getting in a pissing match with about it but I hope I can let some new guys starting out learn from my mistakes...


----------



## captkirk

...........


----------



## Mshow1323

:whistling2:


captkirk said:


> Being in business and not knowing what your competitors are charging is bad business steve... im not getting in a pissing match with about it but I hope I can let some new guys starting out learn from my mistakes...



I'd have to somewhat disagree. My cost of living and business overhead, is not, nor will it ever be dictated by the "going rate." The only thing I care about is making a comfortable living, and having my clientele dictate my price points. I find this out by my close rate. I know if it the percentage wavers out of 35%-75%, I've got to make adjustments. My business plan does not involve anybody but my customers and my company.


----------



## nrp3

I suspect I could be guilty of being a far better technician than businessman. Trying to change that.


----------



## rewire

captkirk said:


> Being in business and not knowing what your competitors are charging is bad business steve... im not getting in a pissing match with about it but I hope I can let some new guys starting out learn from my mistakes...


are you basing your pricing on what your competitors charge?


----------



## 120/208

I flat rate price, send estimates and occasionally do T&M work. I bet our feathered friend will take issue with this.:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

120/208 said:


> I flat rate price, send estimates and occasionally do T&M work. I bet our feathered friend will take issue with this.:laughing:


I've been doing the same for decades 120....:thumbup: ~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

captkirk said:


> Being in business and not knowing what your competitors are charging is bad business steve... im not getting in a pissing match with about it but I hope I can let some new guys starting out learn from my mistakes...


My first venture out in this trade was in the 80's 

Since that time i've probably made enough mistakes to be some biz schools poster boy....









Did i learn anything?

Well, i'm still here.....

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

captkirk said:


> ...........


I think I agree with this......:laughing:


----------



## Tiger

chicken steve said:


> Decades ago i worked for a company who's owner was that 70ish man
> 
> Despite the delegation of many noobs like myself at the time, he made no bones about crawling _anywhere_ with a toolbelt.
> 
> His work ethic is something i try an emulate to this day, because he led by example.:thumbsup:
> 
> He lived the life of an electrician , and died one , because he loved this trade
> 
> Now if you're _suggesting_ there's some _shame_ in this, or shame in _not _evolving to growing an azz the shape of some executive office seat....*get out !*
> 
> 
> ~CS~


I have had several projects with a couple in their 80s who are business owners of a trucking company. One of the latest projects was creating a full bath including double sink, shower, spa, toilet, etc. He was doing most of the work himself. I'll guess that he was 85-87 at the time. I told him "You are my hero". 

Although I have learned a little about business over the years, mostly out of desperation, I am a tradesman at heart. I plan to keep the tool belt on as long as possible.


----------



## yrman

Tiger said:


> I have had several projects with a couple in their 80s who are business owners of a trucking company. One of the latest projects was creating a full bath including double sink, shower, spa, toilet, etc. He was doing most of the work himself. I'll guess that he was 85-87 at the time. I told him "You are my hero". Although I have learned a little about business over the years, mostly out of desperation, I am a tradesman at heart. I plan to keep the tool belt on as long as possible.


 My husband can go out and do a meter upgrade by himself and come back tired but with a spring in his step and a gleam in his eye. But after an entire day in the office he is dead on his feet. Thursday night we were having problems with our ceiling fan on our bedroom. 11pm, there he was wearing his PJ bottoms and a robe up on a ladder with his tool belt on. Cracked me up! If this trade wasn't so godawful hard on your body he'd MUCH prefer to be out wearing tools. He doesn't care as much for the business end. Damn...there is something about a man in a tool belt!  .


----------



## MTW

Tell him he needs to lighten that tool belt up a bit.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

yrman said:


> My husband can go out and do a meter upgrade by himself and come back tired but with a spring in his step and a gleam in his eye. But after an entire day in the office he is dead on his feet. Thursday night we were having problems with our ceiling fan on our bedroom. 11pm, there he was wearing his PJ bottoms and a robe up on a ladder with his tool belt on. Cracked me up! If this trade wasn't so godawful hard on your body he'd MUCH prefer to be out wearing tools. He doesn't care as much for the business end. Damn...there is something about a man in a tool belt!  .


Judging by you're posts, I'll bet you guys make a great team:thumbsup:


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

captkirk said:


> Being in business and not knowing what your competitors are charging is bad business steve... im not getting in a pissing match with about it but I hope I can let some new guys starting out learn from my mistakes...


I have to disagree. I have no idea what my competitors charge except for the occasional customer that shows me there estimate. Sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower. Either way it doesn't matter. I have to charge what my company demands. My goal is 25% net profit. I need to find my break even costs and add 25%. What difference does it make to know what my competitors are charging. Unless they're charging way more than me and I'm leaving money on the table. But I know that's not the case.


----------



## chicken steve

Have you ever been to an open pre bid Frank? Kind of situation where all the local EC's are called in to view say, a larger reno, all at once?

~CS~


----------



## yrman

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Judging by you're posts, I'll bet you guys make a great team:thumbsup:


We do! 









He's also a much better housekeeper than me!
It's a beautiful day and I want to go to the beach but nooooo he wants to clean the house.


----------



## T&K

It's hard for me to take anyone serious that "makes his nut", or has people call around to get a bid from other "reputable" EC's in his area, so his price can be determined. Seems to me like the same thing that most bitch about, and that's bid shopping.


----------



## captkirk

Tiger said:


> I have had several projects with a couple in their 80s who are business owners of a trucking company. One of the latest projects was creating a full bath including double sink, shower, spa, toilet, etc. He was doing most of the work himself. I'll guess that he was 85-87 at the time. I told him "You are my hero".
> 
> Although I have learned a little about business over the years, mostly out of desperation, I am a tradesman at heart. I plan to keep the tool belt on as long as possible.


Knock yourselves out guys..personally I hope to have the tools off in another 5 years...
You know the natural progression of things for a small buisiness owner...start with one truck/store get another and another till you make the switch from wire humper to full time business man. you guys seem to be happy being self employed electricians... enjoy it I have loftier goalz that dont involve working till my knees and back give out...


----------



## captkirk

T&K said:


> It's hard for me to take anyone serious that "makes his nut", or has people call around to get a bid from other "reputable" EC's in his area, so his price can be determined. Seems to me like the same thing that most bitch about, and that's bid shopping.


I bet you have a hard time with a lot of things....lol...

Thats normal to know what your market is.... havent you read anything...???? Why sell a service for less when you know others are getting more...????
If I didnt do what I do I would still be selling them for 1800.....I get about 3000 now....lol....
But ok.... ill bury my head in the sand because what im doing is immoral. ...lol.....


----------



## captkirk

Thats like if your a restaurant owner and someone opens another accross the street your saying its immoral to look at the prices on the menu....lol.....OK sport.....lol.
Oh I should just charge what I need and never mind that others are getting 20-40 percent more money for the same thing.... ok guys...


----------



## T&K

captkirk said:


> I bet you have a hard time with a lot of things....lol...
> 
> Thats normal to know what your market is.... havent you read anything...???? Why sell a service for less when you know others are getting more...????
> If I didnt do what I do I would still be selling them for 1800.....I get about 3000 now....lol....
> But ok.... ill bury my head in the sand because what im doing is immoral. ...lol.....


No one said anything about being less....you did... Learn to make your own pricing and let your reputation sell the work. Anyone can win a bid if they know what their competition is bidding and they bid lower. You are selling yourself short.


----------



## rewire

captkirk said:


> I bet you have a hard time with a lot of things....lol...
> 
> Thats normal to know what your market is.... havent you read anything...???? Why sell a service for less when you know others are getting more...????
> If I didnt do what I do I would still be selling them for 1800.....I get about 3000 now....lol....
> But ok.... ill bury my head in the sand because what im doing is immoral. ...lol.....


What if the competition is leds do you lower your price?


----------



## captkirk

You guys can rip me all you want.... call me immoral or what ever else you want but im in my seventh year now, I own two trucks I bought outright, my two guys have real jobs with benefits, 401, health, and I did this all during the crappiest economy in the last 100 years...
Yea I dont know sh it..... keep doing what your doing. Ill be ok....


----------



## captkirk

rewire said:


> What if the competition is leds do you lower your price?


Your on the ignore list because your obviously not listening and for some reason are offended by my advice...


----------



## T&K

rewire said:


> What if the competition is leds do you lower your price?


EXACTLY!!!! Quit trying to know what everyone else is doing, and let your work dictate the price. Most of my work is done on a give me the price, and I'll give you the job basis. Anyone can be cheaper, and get the job.


----------



## captkirk

I wish I was still in college. ... this would be great material of how NOT to be....lol peace out guys my work is done here....happy hunting all...


----------



## T&K

College educated, and doesn't know the correct usage of your and you're... Now that is hilarious!!


----------



## T&K

Wait...in college educated terms it would be LOL...


----------



## captkirk

Oh and not only do I know what my competition charges but I go after accounts.....I hand out cards, introduce myself to everyone and I recently picked up a 50 store account all because I went after them..I took the owner out to dinner on day and bam....
Handed out some cards and made some people laugh at a Kohler meeting and now im looking at two roof top generators in hoboken with a union mechnical contractor this week...and possibly more to come....
Dont sit home on your ass content with being a nice guy ...... go get it.


----------



## rewire

captkirk said:


> Your on the ignore list because your obviously not listening and for some reason are offended by my advice...


Offended? Do you call competitors and pretend to be a customer or do you rummage through their trash hoping to find a discarded invoice? Seriously a competitors price is useless for a busimess such as ours. I have no idea how a competitor arrived at their price they could use a dart board. My price is based on one thing and one thing only and that is my business making a profit. I dont allow a competitor to set my price either higher or lower.


----------



## captkirk

T&K said:


> Wait...in college educated terms it would be LOL...


 im very familiar with the differences but im typing fast because my kids want me ... and fwiw you might as well raise the white flag and admit your wrong..... pulling out the grammar police crap is the first sign your loosing a debat....


----------



## captkirk

rewire said:


> Offended? Do you call competitors and pretend to be a customer or do you rummage through their trash hoping to find a discarded invoice? Seriously a competitors price is useless for a busimess such as ours. I have no idea how a competitor arrived at their price they could use a dart board. My price is based on one thing and one thing only and that is my business making a profit. I dont allow a competitor to set my price either higher or lower.


Amazing I have even brought this up in the past and you still dont get it.....I dont do the calling....thats what friends are for..come on man ......keep up.


----------



## rewire

captkirk said:


> Oh and not only do I know what my competition charges but I go after accounts.....I hand out cards, introduce myself to everyone and I recently picked up a 50 store account all because I went after them..I took the owner out to dinner on day and bam....
> Handed out some cards and made some people laugh at a Kohler meeting and now im looking at two roof top generators in hoboken with a union mechnical contractor this week...and possibly more to come....
> Dont sit home on your ass content with being a nice guy ...... go get it.


Gaining work does not equate succsses . You picked up 50 dtores because you were cheaper than the guy they had and when some guy is cheaper than you well. I have found that the first to whip out the tape measure are the most insecure.


----------



## T&K

captkirk said:


> I wish I was still in college. ... this would be great material of how NOT to be....lol peace out guys my work is done here....happy hunting all...


I believe it is evident who was leaving the debate first...


----------



## captkirk

Have a good Sunday all its been fun once again....im going outside to play with the kiddies then off to dance practice for my daughters father daughter dance...


----------



## captkirk

rewire said:


> Gaining work does not equate succsses . You picked up 50 dtores because you were cheaper than the guy they had and when some guy is cheaper than you well. I have found that the first to whip out the tape measure are the most insecure.


Yea sure..... I picked them up because I , unlike the guy he used before am willing to take payment in installments, also because I alwayz answere my phone and can do what eber tbey need in a drop of a hat.... but tell yourself what ever you need...


----------



## captkirk

Greed is good..


----------



## captkirk

Im tired of hearing all the bitching and moaning in here and back and forth of what is right and wrong and how its slow and yada yada.....

Bull.... if you want something you have to go and get it...

And im not patting myself on the back because quite frankly im small potatoes to a lot of guys in here but there is a better way to do stuff and I think a lot of guys can learn a thing or two from my mistakes. That is my only intent here..


----------



## chicken steve

T&K said:


> EXACTLY!!!! Quit trying to know what everyone else is doing, and let your work dictate the price. Most of my work is done on a give me the price, and I'll give you the job basis. Anyone can be cheaper, and get the job.


You might find yourself rethinking that after a string of losses to low bidders TK

~CS~


----------



## yrman

Or another angle might be to seek out customers who are not shopping for the lowest price and making their selection on price alone. 

Maybe try fishing in a different pond OR find a way to add more value to what you are offering. It could be offering financing, better payment terms, longer warranty, better quality materials (if applicable) added on items, priority or better service, more experience, better references and reviews, more experienced employees, faster or neater work......

OFTEN the reason someone _tells you _lost a job is not the _real_ reason.

"Your price was too high" is an easy out. We hear that sometimes but we also hear "your price was higher but the other guy couldn't answer all our questions or didn't seem as knowledgable, they seemed sketchy, they didn't show up on time, they were sloppy......"

Believe it or not, we even hear "their prices were too low, we don't believe it can be done right or the way we want for that amount". "We figured it would cost between x and y and your price was right in there."

You can bet they didn't actually say that to the losing bidder. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not all customers choose on price alone. And that is true everywere. Why do some people buy cheap and others expensive? If everyone decided only based on price we'd all shop only at the 99cent store and drive Kia's. It's the same reason why we do far more business in blue collar neighborhoods than the rich ones. You would think that the rich folks could better afford our prices and while that may be true, we also find that working people place a higher value on quality workmanship and reputation are more willing to pay for it than people who run their lives by squeezing the last drop out of each nickel.


----------



## btharmy

captkirk said:


> off to dance practice for my daughters father daughter dance...


Have fun with it. I got pulled up on stage during a recital a couple months ago with no warning by some girls during a teenage dance performance. Both of my girls are in dance since the age of 2. My wife's helps run a dance studio and is an instructor. Enjoy it while it lasts. My 10 yr old is still happy to have dad around but my 14 yr old, not so much.


----------



## T&K

chicken steve said:


> You might find yourself rethinking that after a string of losses to low bidders TK
> 
> ~CS~


I chimed in on this simply because its hilarious how some think they are the greatest that ever lived, and make way more money than anyone else, and on and on... While you are correct on rethinking the way I do things after a streak of losses to low bidders, I would never stoop to the level of calling competitors to get their price. I'm going to guess that at some point in time, he has even used the line "i know you have been using ABC electric, get their price on the next job, and I'll beat it by 5%." I base my bids off of my own experience. When I start to lose bid after bid, I start to question myself. When I fall below 50-60% wins, I start to try to adjust. However, I don't do it immediately. I let it ebb and flow. I may lose 10 in a row, or more, and not change anything, especially if I have been on a winning streak. I try to bid according to the job, the homeowner/GC/business owner, and the competition (if any). This method has always seemed to be a no fail approach, and I have never let a lowballer affect my pricing just to start winning bid work. I look at a few days of nothing to do, or a few slow weeks of hit and miss as a blessing, and time to get caught up on other more important, non work related things, such as my kids, and a little hunting. That's the whole point of my being self employed. Make plenty on the jobs I win, so I don't have to work everyday.


----------



## T&K

yrman said:


> Or another angle might be to seek out customers who are not shopping for the lowest price and making their selection on price alone.
> 
> Maybe try fishing in a different pond OR find a way to add more value to what you are offering. It could be offering financing, better payment terms, longer warranty, better quality materials (if applicable) added on items, priority or better service, more experience, better references and reviews, more experienced employees, faster or neater work......
> 
> OFTEN the reason someone tells you lost a job is not the real reason.
> 
> "Your price was too high" is an easy out. We hear that sometimes but we also hear "your price was higher but the other guy couldn't answer all our questions or didn't seem as knowledgable, they seemed sketchy, they didn't show up on time, they were sloppy......"
> 
> Believe it or not, we even hear "their prices were too low, we don't believe it can be done right or the way we want for that amount". "We figured it would cost between x and y and your price was right in there."
> 
> You can bet they didn't actually say that to the losing bidder. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not all customers choose on price alone. And that is true everywere. Why do some people buy cheap and others expensive? If everyone decided only based on price we'd all shop only at the 99cent store and drive Kia's. It's the same reason why we do far more business in blue collar neighborhoods than the rich ones. You would think that the rich folks could better afford our prices and while that may be true, we also find that working people place a higher value on quality workmanship and reputation are more willing to pay for it than people who run their lives by squeezing the last drop out of each nickel.


Very well said


----------



## chicken steve

T&K said:


> I chimed in on this simply because its hilarious how some think they are the greatest that ever lived, and make way more money than anyone else, and on and on...
> 
> 
> 
> It's how they validate it that gets me going TK
> 
> As one who's come full circle from the local God of electricity to a slum sparky ,i'll tell you the number one thing i've learned that they so obviously need to
> 
> *humility.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While you are correct on rethinking the way I do things after a streak of losses to low bidders, I would never stoop to the level of calling competitors to get their price.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor would I, yet otoh, it's good to rub elbows with them and talk. The various contractors, chamber of C, or code updates present opportunities for this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to guess that at some point in time, he has even used the line "i know you have been using ABC electric, get their price on the next job, and I'll beat it by 5%." I base my bids off of my own experience. When I start to lose bid after bid, I start to question myself. When I fall below 50-60% wins, I start to try to adjust. However, I don't do it immediately. I let it ebb and flow. I may lose 10 in a row, or more, and not change anything, especially if I have been on a winning streak. I try to bid according to the job, the homeowner/GC/business owner, and the competition (if any). This method has always seemed to be a no fail approach, and I have never let a lowballer affect my pricing just to start winning bid work. I look at a few days of nothing to do, or a few slow weeks of hit and miss as a blessing, and time to get caught up on other more important, non work related things, such as my kids, and a little hunting. That's the whole point of my being self employed. Make plenty on the jobs I win, so I don't have to work everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You seem aware of, and in tune with your market, considering every possible influence, yet bowing to no one element.
> 
> This is exactly what i've been trying to impart to those who've been sold an isolationist biz plan
> 
> The basic biz plan being foisted is overhead divided by 1000 man hours to conclude the FR you've been privy to (nail in head :whistling2 for 20 odd pages , _does not_ work in isolation
> 
> Lets say i assume a boatload of overhead, and my numbers crunch to something_ way outside_ the local market, because they have to
> 
> How long do you think it'll be before that bites me in the tailfeathers?
> 
> That's whats being preached ,it's not a Flat Rate in step with the local competition, it's really _MY RATE_ because it can't _possibly _compete with it.
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


----------



## chicken steve

captkirk said:


> Greed is good..


got a few minutes Cap'n ?






~CS~


----------



## Mshow1323

Good video, and yet so terrible


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician

Good info CS.

I wonder why some folks are satisfied with their wealth and way of life?

How many of the top 1% will lay on their death beds saying "all the sacrifices were worth it" and take all their wealth to the grave?

Most of the "average folks" will be surrounded by loved ones who will mourn their passing and recall all the times they spent with their loved ones.

I applaud folks who quit chasing the bucks every now and then to "smell the roses".


----------



## MTW

The love of money is the root of all evil.


----------



## Going_Commando

MTW said:


> The love of money is the root of all evil.


Well, I guess that makes me evil because I absolutely love money. I love the smell of it, the taste of it, the look of piles of it laying in front of me, and the higher the number in my bank account the better. I guess I'm cool with being evil.


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> got a few minutes Cap'n ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Cool post,,,so now that the democrats have been in charge since 2006,,,,,,,,,,,(2000'AND"6 For you liberals), has it become better for anyone below the one percent?


Nope, It has become much worse by design..


----------



## hardworkingstiff

Going_Commando said:


> Well, I guess that makes me evil because I absolutely love money. I love the smell of it, the taste of it, the look of piles of it laying in front of me, and the higher the number in my bank account the better. I guess I'm cool with being evil.


It could mean you are spiritually deficient (notice I did not mention religion).

A lot of it of course is who are you willing to screw over to get more money?


----------



## hardworkingstiff

HARRY304E said:


> Nope, It has become much worse by design..


Yes, but you are mistaken that the design is a Democrat design. But yet, you continue..... 

I thought you had gone past political sides and were preaching that both sides are corrupt, now you are back to saying the dems are the evil ones? 

Harry Harry Harry, :no:


----------



## chicken steve

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Good info CS.
> 
> I wonder why some folks are satisfied with their wealth and way of life?
> 
> How many of the top 1% will lay on their death beds saying "all the sacrifices were worth it" and take all their wealth to the grave?
> 
> Most of the "average folks" will be surrounded by loved ones who will mourn their passing and recall all the times they spent with their loved ones.
> 
> I applaud folks who quit chasing the bucks every now and then to "smell the roses".


I've read and have a lot of economic info, that i won't bore you with, but this vid went viral , mainly because it expressed the gravity of disparity simplistically.

When i heard *'greed is good'* _(the Mike Douglas wall st movie quote)_ , all i can think of is just how much greed is tearing this country apart.

The advocates of greed are the_ 'me generation'_ , never satisfied with their lot in life, who or what they are, always seeking more on their plate. 

In their defense, it's a philosophy the elites have, for a generation, imparted as the 'American dream'

How does this relate to this thread?

Well being a prosperous biz man is good, being a greedy one is better

THAT is a ball the biz management predators have been running with for quite a while now

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> Cool post,,,so now that the democrats have been in charge since 2006,,,,,,,,,,,(2000'AND"6 For you liberals), has it become better for anyone below the one percent?
> 
> 
> Nope, It has become much worse by design..


Ok, your a republican

I get that Harry

Your view(s) on this one please>








~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

hardworkingstiff said:


> Yes, but you are mistaken that the design is a Democrat design. But yet, you continue.....
> 
> I thought you had gone past political sides and were preaching that both sides are corrupt, now you are back to saying the dems are the evil ones?
> 
> Harry Harry Harry, :no:


Okay LOU why are the democrats and the establishment republicans,(One in the same) such as McCain McConnell and others destroying our health care system, our work force system, the spending power of ordinary folks?.

Because they've sold us all out to make themselves rich and they're creating a third world living hell for the rest of us to live in.


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> Ok, your a republican
> 
> I get that Harry
> 
> Your view(s) on this one please>
> ~CS~


What are you talking about?:blink:


----------



## captkirk

With the exception of a few people in here your all a bunch of babbling ****heads that like to hear yourselves talk and post stupid crap from the internet...acting like your way is the only way .....
Money is evil......lol yea sure....lol.... Didn't you go out of business Peter......lol......im providing a future for my kids and men.....
Im going back to mikes .....this place has turned into romper room for the mentally disabled.....


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> I've read and have a lot of economic info, that i won't bore you with, but this vid went viral , mainly because it expressed the gravity of disparity simplistically.
> 
> When i heard *'greed is good'* _(the Mike Douglas wall st movie quote)_ , all i can think of is just how much greed is tearing this country apart.
> 
> The advocates of greed are the_ 'me generation'_ , never satisfied with their lot in life, who or what they are, always seeking more on their plate.
> 
> In their defense, it's a philosophy the elites have, for a generation, imparted as the 'American dream'
> 
> How does this relate to this thread?
> 
> Well being a prosperous biz man is good, being a greedy one is better
> 
> THAT is a ball the biz management predators have been running with for quite a while now
> 
> ~CS~


Just in-case you have forgotten, this thread is about Flat rate pricing, not greed and all the other Bull chit.


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> What are you talking about?:blink:


Do you like the republican Teddy Roosevelt?

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> Just in-case you have forgotten, this thread is about Flat rate pricing, not greed and all the other Bull chit.


Thanks for the reminder Harry :thumbsup:

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve

I'll settle for a _yes_ or _no _Harry....

~CS~


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> I'll settle for a _yes_ or _no _Harry....
> 
> ~CS~


Ruling Class Republican,,,,,,,NO....


----------



## chicken steve

HARRY304E said:


> Ruling Class Republican,,,,,,,NO....


Interesting response

TR actually spoke _against_ the ruling class.

Try > * 'New Nationalism Speech August 31, 1910'* for a search Harry

You'll also find the Heritage people _(so called modern republicans)_ response picking TR apart as a *flaming liberal* , due to their _pro-ruling greed is good_ class 

*My point?* 

Rome ,my friend, has been burning for a while...

There is no political party to pin _'greed'_ or it's detrimental effects on

~CS~


----------



## hardworkingstiff

captkirk said:


> Money is evil......lol yea sure....lol....


I missed it, other than you, who said money is evil?


----------



## HARRY304E

hardworkingstiff said:


> I missed it, other than you, who said money is evil?





MTW said:


> The love of money is the root of all evil.








:laughing:


----------



## hardworkingstiff

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing:


So, are you saying that if the love of money is the root of all evil that makes money evil? :no:


----------



## HARRY304E

chicken steve said:


> Interesting response
> 
> TR actually spoke _against_ the ruling class.
> 
> Try > * 'New Nationalism Speech August 31, 1910'* for a search Harry
> 
> You'll also find the Heritage people _(so called modern republicans)_ response picking TR apart as a *flaming liberal* , due to their _pro-ruling greed is good_ class
> 
> *My point?*
> 
> Rome ,my friend, has been burning for a while...
> 
> There is no political party to pin _'greed'_ or it's detrimental effects on
> 
> ~CS~


Yes Rome has been for a while now, and it has been accelerated to the extreme because of 'progressivism' of today TR is the founder of 'progressivism' and todays 'progressivism' is quickly turning in to fascism.

Here is fascism latest *victim*, .


----------



## rewire

HARRY304E said:


> Yes Rome has been for a while now, and it has been accelerated to the extreme because of 'progressivism' of today TR is the founder of 'progressivism' and todays 'progressivism' is quickly turning in to fascism.
> 
> Here is fascism latest *victim*, .


You would have called the Montgomery bus system the "victim"


----------



## HARRY304E

rewire said:


> You would have called the Montgomery bus system the "victim"


What are you talking about, The racists Democrats that controlled Alabama in the 1950's?


----------



## rewire

HARRY304E said:


> What are you talking about, The racists Democrats that controlled Alabama in the 1950's?


you would have been a democrat back then the republicans were the liberals


----------



## HARRY304E

rewire said:


> you would have been a democrat back then the republicans were the liberals


Wrong as usual you're just promoting the lefts properganda to cover up they're own history, and here is where the racist facists are taking us..

http://nypost.com/2014/04/06/jay-zs-medallion-bears-logo-of-five-percent-radical-group/



He's one of the presidents buddy's


----------



## HARRY304E

T&K said:


> I chimed in on this simply because its hilarious how some think they are the greatest that ever lived, and make way more money than anyone else, and on and on... While you are correct on rethinking the way I do things after a streak of losses to low bidders, I would never stoop to the level of calling competitors to get their price. I'm going to guess that at some point in time, he has even used the line "i know you have been using ABC electric, get their price on the next job, and I'll beat it by 5%." I base my bids off of my own experience. When I start to lose bid after bid, I start to question myself. When I fall below 50-60% wins, I start to try to adjust. However, I don't do it immediately. I let it ebb and flow. I may lose 10 in a row, or more, and not change anything, especially if I have been on a winning streak. I try to bid according to the job, the homeowner/GC/business owner, and the competition (if any). This method has always seemed to be a no fail approach, and I have never let a lowballer affect my pricing just to start winning bid work. I look at a few days of nothing to do, or a few slow weeks of hit and miss as a blessing, and time to get caught up on other more important, non work related things, such as my kids, and a little hunting. That's the whole point of my being self employed. Make plenty on the jobs I win, so I don't have to work everyday.


Well said.....:thumbsup:


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

That video is true, but to say it's just now getting like that is BS. I'm watching Game of Thrones and I know it's fiction but the premise of medieval life is right on. There was a ruling class, less than 1% and the peasants. No middle class. We have it great. Yeah it may not be fair, but we all have an opportunity to become wealthy. Quit griping. If your happy they be happy. If you want more, get smarter. If you want to create wealth distribution, go to Russia.


----------



## HARRY304E

FranklinsApprentice said:


> That video is true, but to say it's just now getting like that is BS. I'm watching Game of Thrones and I know it's fiction but the premise of medieval life is right on. There was a ruling class, less than 1% and the peasants. No middle class. We have it great. Yeah it may not be fair, but we all have an opportunity to become wealthy. Quit griping. If your happy they be happy. If you want more, get smarter. If you want to create wealth distribution, go to Russia.


That's right they do have that in Russia "wealth distribution"The ruling class has all the money and the rest don't and they make sure that the rest never get that chance too, at least here the door to wealth is open to anyone that wants in,,,,,,just find the keys,,,,of course I'm still looking...:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> That video is true, but to say it's just now getting like that is BS. I'm watching Game of Thrones and I know it's fiction but the premise of medieval life is right on. There was a ruling class, less than 1% and the peasants. No middle class. We have it great. Yeah it may not be fair, but we all have an opportunity to become wealthy. Quit griping. If your happy they be happy. If you want more, get smarter. If you want to create wealth distribution, go to Russia.


That video is _us_ now, and closely mirrors the _us_ of 1929.

If that ruling class is allowed to own enough of this country, we might as well be Russians, because we'll be about as free as they are 

~CS~


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> That video is us now, and closely mirrors the us of 1929.
> 
> If that ruling class is allowed to own enough of this country, we might as well be Russians, because we'll be about as free as they are
> 
> ~CS~


When that happens, I'll deal with it. But I'm not going to live my life in fear. The only way we can change anything is to either make a lot of money or convince enough people at the poles. The ones doing the most convincing are convincing the poor by offering more welfare and the immigrants legalization. The other party is trying to do the same and become like to other. As long as that happens, the poor will stay poor, and the ruling class will rule with more power, aka the politicians and wealthy.


----------



## chicken steve

FranklinsApprentice said:


> When that happens, I'll deal with it. But I'm not going to live my life in fear. The only way we can change anything is to either make a lot of money or convince enough people at the poles. The ones doing the most convincing are convincing the poor by offering more welfare and the immigrants legalization. The other party is trying to do the same and become like to other. As long as that happens, the poor will stay poor, and the ruling class will rule with more power, aka the politicians and wealthy.


It is happening, and i'd only ask you live in understanding and acknowledgement , not fear Frank

National zeitgeist is the way anything changes 

Those welfare queen target(s) are a total distraction, ironically the machination of the biggest recipients in American history, the elites.

~CS~


----------



## FranklinsApprentice

chicken steve said:


> It is happening, and i'd only ask you live in understanding and acknowledgement , not fear Frank
> 
> National zeitgeist is the way anything changes
> 
> Those welfare queen target(s) are a total distraction, ironically the machination of the biggest recipients in American history, the elites.
> 
> ~CS~


I acknowledge.


----------



## rewire

HARRY304E said:


> Wrong as usual you're just promoting the lefts properganda to cover up they're own history, and here is where the racist facists are taking us..
> 
> http://nypost.com/2014/04/06/jay-zs-medallion-bears-logo-of-five-percent-radical-group/
> 
> 
> 
> He's one of the presidents buddy's


You might have a point if you totally ignored history and did not look at how the vote on the civil rights act of 1964 was actually broken down not just by party but also by geographic location. 








In this case, it becomes clear that Democrats in the north and the south were more likely to vote for the bill than Republicans in the north and south respectively. 

Nearly 100% of Union state Democrats supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act compared to 85% of Republicans. None of the southern Republicans voted for the bill, while a small percentage of southern Democrats did.


----------



## MTW

I would never hire a flat rate con artist and I'm not sure why anyone else would either. Unless they don't know better. :whistling2:


----------



## MTW

Going_Commando said:


> Well, I guess that makes me evil because I absolutely love money.


Yes. 



> I love the smell of it, the taste of it, the look of piles of it laying in front of me, and the higher the number in my bank account the better. I guess I'm cool with being evil.


That's too bad.


----------



## electricmalone

Good to see flat rate brings us down a side track....


----------



## MTW

captkirk said:


> Money is evil......lol yea sure....lol....


That isn't what I said. Go back and read it. The love of money (aka greed) is evil. 



> Didn't you go out of business Peter


I still have my van, inventory and my license and insurance are paid in full. Doesn't sound like out of business to me. :whistling2:



> im providing a future for my kids and men.....


Not too hard to do when your wife works full time. :whistling2:


----------



## HARRY304E

rewire said:


> You might have a point if you totally ignored history and did not look at how the vote on the civil rights act of 1964 was actually broken down not just by party but also by geographic location.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this case, it becomes clear that Democrats in the north and the south were more likely to vote for the bill than Republicans in the north and south respectively.
> 
> Nearly 100% of Union state Democrats supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act compared to 85% of Republicans. None of the southern Republicans voted for the bill, while a small percentage of southern Democrats did.




Funny how your history book only goes back to 1964....:laughing:



*Civil Rights Act of 1957*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*The Civil Rights Act of 1957*, Pub.L. 85–315, 71 Stat. 634, enacted September 9, 1957, primarily a voting rights bill, was the first civil rights legislation passed by Congress in the United States since Reconstruction following the American Civil War.
The Civil Rights Act of 1957 was also Congress's show of support for the Supreme Court's _Brown_ decisions. [1] The _Brown v. Board of Education_ (1954), eventually led to the integration of public schools. Following the Supreme Court ruling, Southern whites in Virginia began a "Massive Resistance." Violence against blacks rose there and in other states, as in Little Rock, Arkansas, where that year President Dwight D. Eisenhower had ordered in federal troops to protect nine children integrating a public school, the first time the federal government had sent troops to the South since Reconstruction.[2] There had been continued physical assaults against suspected activists and bombings of schools and churches in the South. The administration of Eisenhower proposed legislation to protect the right to vote by African Americans.
Democratic Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, an ardent segregationist, sustained the longest one-person filibuster in history in an attempt to keep the bill from becoming law. His one-man filibuster lasted 24 hours and 18 minutes; he began with readings of every state's election laws in alphabetical order. Thurmond later read from the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and George Washington's Farewell Address. His speech set the record for a Senate filibuster.[3] The bill passed the House with a vote of 285 to 126 (Republicans 167-19 for, Democrats 118-107 for) [4] and the Senate 72 to 18 (Republicans 43-0 for, Democrats 29-18 for).[5] President Eisenhower signed it on September 9, 1957.
*
*


----------



## EBFD6

MTW said:


> I would never hire a flat rate con artist and I'm not sure why anyone else would either. Unless they don't know better. :whistling2:


Why not? 

They wear booties and have name tags. That's worth $300 to change a gfci isn't it?


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

EBFD6 said:


> Why not?
> 
> They wear booties and have name tags. That's worth $300 to change a gfci isn't it?


300???? That's only after the $250 trip charge to find out the gfi just needed to be reset but talked them into changing it.


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## EBFD6

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> 300???? That's only after the $250 trip charge to find out the gfi just needed to be reset but talked them into changing it.


"While we're here we might as well change the oil in your main breaker and tighten the screws on your flux capacitor. Not all electrical contractors will give you this kind of superior service, it's a good thing you called us. I know we're 3x more expensive than everyone else, but we're worth it. Didn't you notice my boots are freshly polished? You're welcome."


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## rewire

you keep hating flat rate and I will keep cashing the checks:whistling2:


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## rewire

HARRY304E said:


> Funny how your history book only goes back to 1964....:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> *Civil Rights Act of 1957*
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> *The Civil Rights Act of 1957*, Pub.L. 85–315, 71 Stat. 634, enacted September 9, 1957, primarily a voting rights bill, was the first civil rights legislation passed by Congress in the United States since Reconstruction following the American Civil War.
> The Civil Rights Act of 1957 was also Congress's show of support for the Supreme Court's _Brown_ decisions. [1] The _Brown v. Board of Education_ (1954), eventually led to the integration of public schools. Following the Supreme Court ruling, Southern whites in Virginia began a "Massive Resistance." Violence against blacks rose there and in other states, as in Little Rock, Arkansas, where that year President Dwight D. Eisenhower had ordered in federal troops to protect nine children integrating a public school, the first time the federal government had sent troops to the South since Reconstruction.[2] There had been continued physical assaults against suspected activists and bombings of schools and churches in the South. The administration of Eisenhower proposed legislation to protect the right to vote by African Americans.
> Democratic Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, an ardent segregationist, sustained the longest one-person filibuster in history in an attempt to keep the bill from becoming law. His one-man filibuster lasted 24 hours and 18 minutes; he began with readings of every state's election laws in alphabetical order. Thurmond later read from the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and George Washington's Farewell Address. His speech set the record for a Senate filibuster.[3] The bill passed the House with a vote of 285 to 126 (Republicans 167-19 for, Democrats 118-107 for) [4] and the Senate 72 to 18 (Republicans 43-0 for, Democrats 29-18 for).[5] President Eisenhower signed it on September 9, 1957.


actually my history book goes further than yours:whistling2:


The *Civil Rights Act of 1866*, 14 Stat. 27-30, enacted April 9, 1866, is a United States federal law that was mainly intended to protect the civil rights of African-Americans, in the wake of the American Civil War. This legislation was enacted by Congress in 1865 but vetoed by President Andrew Johnson. In April 1866 Congress again passed the bill. Although Johnson again vetoed it, a two-thirds majority in each house overcame the veto and the bill ostensibly became law.
John Bingham and some other congressmen argued that Congress did not yet have sufficient constitutional power to enact this law. Following passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, Congress reenacted the 1866 Act in 1870.


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## Chris1971

electricmalone said:


> Here we go again... LOL. For those using the flat rate programs out there, how's it working out? What are you using? Our shop is looking to make a clean cut division between construction and service. I'm heading the service. My suggestion is drop T&M immediately and pick up flat rate. Looking for real world pros / cons.


I can only speak from personal experience and using flat rate software for my company. I enjoy the ease of use and the upfront pricing before the work begins. It eliminates the customer second guessing the invoice upon completion. This works well for my business model.


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## FrunkSlammer

Today I was just thinking how nice flat rate is.. I can answer my phone, I can take a break, I can do the work properly and not worry about a customer hounding me. They know the price in the end for the work and I know how much I'm going to make in the end. All that is left is to just do the job. 

Pretty stress free.


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## Chris1971

FrunkSlammer said:


> Today I was just thinking how nice flat rate is.. I can answer my phone, I can take a break, I can do the work properly and not worry about a customer hounding me. They know the price in the end for the work and I know how much I'm going to make in the end. All that is left is to just do the job.
> 
> Pretty stress free.


It does have its advantages.


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## HARRY304E

rewire said:


> actually my history book goes further than yours:whistling2:
> 
> 
> The *Civil Rights Act of 1866*, 14 Stat. 27-30, enacted April 9, 1866, is a United States federal law that was mainly intended to protect the civil rights of African-Americans, in the wake of the American Civil War. This legislation was enacted by Congress in 1865 but vetoed by President Andrew Johnson.(Democrat) In April 1866 Congress again passed the bill. Although Johnson(D) again vetoed it, a two-thirds majority in each house overcame the veto and the bill ostensibly became law.
> John Bingham and some other congressmen argued that Congress did not yet have sufficient constitutional power to enact this law. Following passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, Congress reenacted the 1866 Act in 1870.


Excellent, It's good to see you're on the road to recovery.... 

historical Highlights *The Civil Rights Bill of 1866*

April 09, 1866







Image courtesy of Library of Congress A New York state politician for more than a decade, Republican Representative Henry Raymond served only one term in the House of Representatives. 
On this date, the House overrode Democratic President Andrew Johnson’s veto of the Civil Rights Bill of 1866 with near unanimous Republican support, 122 to 41, marking the first time Congress legislated upon civil rights. First introduced by Senate Judiciary Chairman Lyman Trumbull Republican of Illinois, the bill mandated that "all persons born in the United States," with the exception of American Indians, were "hereby declared to be citizens of the United States." The legislation granted all citizens the “full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property.” To Radical Republicans, who believed the federal government had a role in shaping a multiracial society in the postwar South, the measure seemed the next logical step after the ratification of the 13th Amendment on December 18, 1865 (which abolished slavery). Representative Henry Raymond Republican  of New York noted that the legislation was “one of the most important bills ever presented to this House for its action.” President Johnson,(Democrat) disagreed with the level of federal intervention implied by the legislation, calling it “another step, or rather a stride, toward centralization and the concentration of all legislative power in the national Government” in his veto message. The Civil Rights Bill of 1866 proved to be the opening salvo of the showdown between the 39th Congress (1865–1867) and the President over the future of the former Confederacy and African-American civil rights.


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## trolling4u

Does anyone know if the ES 2 software is integrated with Quickbooks?
That would be very important to me.


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## HARRY304E

trolling4u said:


> Does anyone know if the ES 2 software is integrated with Quickbooks?
> That would be very important to me.


That is coming.:thumbsup:


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## trolling4u

HARRY304E said:


> That is coming.:thumbsup:


Any idea of a time frame?


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## Mshow1323

I believe the beta comes out in June. By the looks of things it will move fairly quickly after that.


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## trolling4u

I'll give it a try once the QB integration is out. Looks like a good program.


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