# Not to **** on the ibew but I don’t get the obsession and nut hugging .....



## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

Maybe it’s the fact I live in San Diego and the local here is very old school and very up and down with work but I don’t understand the blind union nuthuggers.

It’s especially true on the r/electricians subreddit and ofc the r/ibew one as well.

people pretty much say if you can’t go union you’re some kind of worthless loser and just a moron. Do people not realize it is entirely dependent on where you live and your unions market share ? I’ve got nothing against the ibew , I think it’s a great way to go but there are good locals and bad locals just like there are good open shops and bad ones.

I’m not even gonna trash talk 569 , I’ve never worked a day in the ibew here but I can tell you what I know and what I’ve heard from first hand accounts.

1. You have to interview twice unless you have family. Sucks but it’s true. They don’t count your 1000 otj hours towards the apprenticeship ( more on this later). It normally takes about a year to get a call for your first job so that’s two years from your first interview.

2. From what I’ve heard , it’s very nepotistic. I know a lot of major city locals aren’t like this anymore but 569 might be. I spoke to someone who was family friends with someone on the interview board and journeyed out here. He said shops have their own books and even for apprentices dynalectric and CSI electric are known for huge layoffs. It explains why when you look at where2bro book 1 is always at 300. Last time I looked it went down to 298 because work picked up for the time being.

The guy in question said it took 6 1/2 years to get his license then he went to local 48.

3. That’s my job ****. This might be more of a union thing as a whole but in the union , Atleast here from what I’ve heard, you’re delegated one task.
That’s it. You dig a trench ? Don’t put the underground pvc together. Cutting or bending pipe ? Don’t help the guy on the lift run it.

you do more than the one task you’re delegated based on your level , you’re not seen as a hard worker eager to learn , you’re seen as a wormy **** who needs to get his ass kicked for stealing another “brothers” work.


expect to have a group of guys run up on you and get in your face if you do that.

4. Redwing licking/ brown nosing - everyone’s job scared so foreman will take Jman pay , jmen will take last period pay. Just stuff like that.

5. If you’re a jman trying to organize in you’ll get bent here. The last electrical company I worked at there was a guy there who was jman and did a lot of work with big names like helix , berg , industrial contracts for the DOD , etc.

he said he applied to the union and he though he was getting reviewed by the board to get organized in as a JW. They said they where gonna send him through the apprenticeship program and start him at 18/$hr (first period). They didn’t even care he had is license and hours signed for.

he politely declined.

I Also met a street light tech that’s a CE , they didn’t even let him in the apprenticeship program , he did electrical for almost 20 years and had his card and everything. Stuck forever as b rate through the hall.


6. CW/CE - can’t say I’m shocked this is pushed so hard. Just don’t do it. Dyna and the other big shops will promise you a spot in the apprenticeship program but it’s all lies to keep you working for 13.60/$hr.


That’s about it as far as 569 goes. I work with someone who’s testing for his very soon who’s dad was 569 and his dad said it’s just not the same as it used to be and told him to go open shop.

the shop I work at , the journeyman make low to mid 40s depending on how many years they’ve had their card and the foreman who have been running jobs for a while have to be making in the low 50s I’d imagine.

We do everything the union here does but we have a lot more of the contracts hence a sick amount of OT. Biotech ,government laboratories , pharmaceutical, hospital , some industrial outside of control work.

Medical coverage is 18/$ a paycheck for single comprehensive. Dental is dirt cheap. 401k matching. I think it’s like up to 10-15% ?

They’re sending me to school in January and started me at 20/$hr. With OT on the job we’re working I’m taking home 4K a month. I can negotiate a merit raise after 90 days and will push for 22/$hr which is close to when I’ll start school. Mandatory raises every 6 months of 2/$hr minimum.

Union guys here get retirement paid for , sure , better health benefits ( I’ll give them that , it’s good) but just got bumped up to 48/$hr on the check.

After California taxes and lay offs is that extra 5/$ really worth it ? You might have to work your way up after getting licensed for a few years but with a good company you can get close to union pay.

I just don’t get the blind union love. I’m still new but everyone here really likes that company. Nobody lost an hour of work because of COVID either.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Sucks looking in the window of the candy store knowing you ain’t going to get a lick of that lollipop. I would be all butt hurt too.
Open your own candy shop.
Get some people together, open your own shop, pay your people PW, set them up with a nice fat 401, Cadillac healthcare, and quit blaming others for your lot in life.

I know how it is. My dad was a member so I got patched in, my son got in. I cant get anyone not blood in. Its frustrating but it’s a private organization and they can do what they want.


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## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

Southeast Power said:


> Sucks looking in the window of the candy store knowing you ain’t going to get a lick of that lollipop. I would be all butt hurt too.
> Open your own candy shop.
> Get some people together, open your own shop, pay your people PW, set them up with a nice fat 401, Cadillac healthcare, and quit blaming others for your lot in life.
> 
> I know how it is. My dad was a member so I got patched in, my son got in. I cant get anyone not blood in. Its frustrating but it’s a private organization and they can do what they want.


Nah I like where I’m at. I’m not jealous of being laid off half the year and paying dues as an apprentice. Also the **** sucking that comes with a local like this. I’m not hating on the ibew but ofc you’re defensive because how could a open shop ever be better than the union anywhere in the world ?

Must be a hard pill to swallow coming from a union family.

I encourage you to come down and live here , meet the people I’ve met in the trade and then make an assesment . You’re just talking out your ass otherwise.

“you must be a loser or butt hurt if you’re not in the union or like your local”

yawn


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

dg628 said:


> the local here is very old school....
> 
> I just don’t get the blind union love.


Your first point is the nature of your local, and its unfortunate that paints the IBEW picture for many. I'm grateful mine was good to me - was hired off the street with no connections, and earned my TQ in the minimum time required.

Unions, historically and generally, do better for their workers. Keep in mind construction and trades unions don't function the same as other organized labour. In some industries the remuneration gap between union and non is much greater. People who have good union experiences tend to want to stay union as they change jobs and even careers. The union I'm in now (not electrical or construction) might as well be from a different planet from my old IBEW local.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

dg628 said:


> Nah I like where I’m at. I’m not jealous of being laid off half the year and paying dues as an apprentice. Also the **** sucking that comes with a local like this. I’m not hating on the ibew but ofc you’re defensive because how could a open shop ever be better than the union anywhere in the world ?
> 
> Must be a hard pill to swallow coming from a union family.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm reading this wrong but from your original post headline you come off as a whining pissant with a hard-on for union locals in your area. 
But as you say you're new and have a lot to learn about life.......


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## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong but from your original post headline you come off as a whining pissant with a hard-on for union locals in your area.
> But as you say you're new and have a lot to learn about life.......


just relaying what I’ve been told. everyone ive spoke to has never bad mouthed or came off as resentful to the ibew , they just said they where stating the facts about our local. One said if you can manage to stay working consistently here it’s worth it.

If I lived somewhere else with a good union I’d definitely go that route for the schooling and benefits alone but I love SD too much to leave. I’m not Ever gonna afford a house here union or non so As long as I get a nice condo and can have a nice truck or two and not worry about finances I’m happy. That’s possible with the right merit shop.

Don’t get me wrong , there are some bad merit shops here too. Berg doesn’t pay much and won’t even take ETs off the street here. Neither will helix. The ABC has to send you to work for them through their direct program. The waitlist for the ABC is just as long to get into the union. That’s SoCal for ya. Is what it is. Getting a shop to sponsor you like I’m doing is a much better way to go imo. The company I work for is big but not a big name if you get what I mean.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong but from your original post headline you come off as a whining pissant with a hard-on for union locals in your area.
> But as you say you're new and have a lot to learn about life.......


I might have been reading it wrong too but I thought his points had merit, I have seen some of the same thing around here. I am a huge believer and supporter in unions in general, even though there would never be a spot for me in my local, regardless of ability, because I am not related to anybody that could help. 

I feel that unions are too busy hiring their cousins and keeping the cream or themselves, and aren't doing nearly what they could to grow, get more work, expand, and organize and represent more of the trade. 

In my opinion more people in the union should be pressuring their locals to do better for them.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

There is a finite amount of work out there. The problem is that people are willing to take less than PW. How do you explain to your family that you work for a merit shop and your merit is less than the minimum wages established for your jurisdiction? Just why??


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## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

Southeast Power said:


> There is a finite amount of work out there. The problem is that people are willing to take less than PW. How do you explain to your family that you work for a merit shop and your merit is less than the minimum wages established for your jurisdiction? Just why??


It’s not. I make 20/$hr. When my 90 days hit I’ll ask for 22/$hr. 569 starts there guys off at 18/$hr. When I top out I might until I move up a little in the company as a journeyman but an extra 5-8/$hr doesn’t mean **** if you’re not working. I’m not gonna fight hard to be a vested ibew jw to work at target or Home Depot half the year. **** that.

I’m sure there’s a job or two here that has overtime for 569 but I never see OT mentioned on where2bro and I’ve been checking periodically the last 2 years almost.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> There is a finite amount of work out there. The problem is that people are willing to take less than PW. How do you explain to your family that you work for a merit shop and your merit is less than the minimum wages established for your jurisdiction? Just why??


Why? Wouldn't the union's answer to that be, because they don't have any representation, and isolated workers negotiate at a big disadvantage, to get a fair shake they need to organize, bargain collectively, etc.? 

Why don't they have any representation? Because they aren't related to anyone.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

This is exactly why everyone can’t get in. There is a finite amount of work due to people willing to work for less than PW. You might get $1 more on the check in the very short run but, you are most likely not getting much on the benefit side.
This discussion can go on forever and not get anywhere. It would be best if the mods could lock this thread.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's not less work because some people take less for the work. If anything, people taking less for the work creates more work, that's simple economics. There's a finite amount of work because everything is finite. Union members don't make more because they refuse to take less, they make more because the union's on their side. Which is 👍


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Those guys that you talk about in your post are doing the same thing that you are. They (you) have an opinion and they (you) are making sure that everyone knows exactly what it is.
> 
> You just don't agree with their opinion, get used to it.


I am a union contractor with a few years under my belt and our local was like that a long time ago, so I would say he is not bitchin he is pointing out the obvious and which is why locals shrink in market share.


This sounds like an old school IBEW working to shrink their market share. There are good locals and others never saw
the writing on the wall, time to change the old ways.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Every local is different as is their region they are working out of. So my experience is going to be different, and it’s going to be different from members of my own local.

Your (1). Your area local has over 3,000 members. They probably have hundreds of applicants that they can’t take in every year. They may even be weedeing out the one and done applicants. The ones that had no experience and weren’t even sure if they would like the trade. There is going to be family in the local. There’s plenty of family outside the local in open shops. The best thing a member can do if he wants to get his kid in, is make sure he did good in school, and get a job open shop for the experience. My state doesn’t have mandatory apprenticeship to work, so it’s a little easier to get out their and start working. At least 3/4 of my local doesn’t have relatives in the local. I don’t. As far as having to start again, and them not acknowledging any past time, it is what it is. Accept it, and get over it, or don’t. In the end your never going to stop taking classes and learning. It’s never ending.

Our apprentices go right to work once they have been chosen. Theirs no waiting years. From what I’ve read on this forum, there’s a labor shortage. I can’t believe an apprentice is waiting years for his first job.

(2) Signatory contractors don’t have their own books. If a guy gets laid off he signs the list at the hall. They may have “Journeyman recall”, where the contractor can request a guy back if he worked for them in the last six months. But the hall would work that out. It would be against the bylaws if the guy got laid off and didn’t sign the book and went back to work for the same employer. I don’t know of any locals that allow their guys to solicit their own work. If they allowed that, they would call us carpenters, not electricians.

300 guys out of work, but work picked up and now it’s 298? That’s funny. Companies usually hire more than that when things pick up. Truthfully it’s hard to tell how many are really on the book. With 300 on the book, it doesn’t count guys that are working short calls or out of town in another local. So you could be taking 30 day calls, and your number is still riding the list. Or you could be traveling and you don’t loose your spot on the list. Some guys may be out on disability and they keep their spot on the list. Our real out of work list is usually half of what it looks like. It looks like there is 3,369 members. So that would be 8% out of work. Could be closer to 4%.









Union FactsUnion Facts







www.unionfacts.com





(3) Total bull$h!t. There’s was to be wormy, but most of want you described is just work. Larger jobs, guys get pigeon holed into tasks, or select parts of the job. Isn’t that the same open shop? You gain on repetition. Why would someone constantly change things up? Some guys eventually build up certain talents. Like some guys will just work in subways etc...

(4) No jman is going to take apprentice pay. No jman is going to take CE/CW pay. There may be guys not getting Foreman’s rate, even though they have the amount of journeymen under them. Shame on them. It’s not like I never overlooked it. At this point, it’s rare to not get it. Even if I’m working alone. Again though, I don’t know what the state of that local is. You are pretty close to the boarder. 

(5) Back to this again. Some states have mandatory apprenticeships, some don’t. Mine doesn’t. There’s no way of knowing what a guy knows. I did four years of school along with five years in the trade. That with $1.00 would buy me a cup of coffee. I got my foot in the door as a residential “B” guy. Had to pass electrical test to prove I didn’t need their two year residential apprenticeship. Then do five years as a “B” guy. Then pass another electrical test to finish out the last two years as an “A” apprentice. The apprenticeship was just changing to five years. Finally topped out at thirty years old. So I’ve jumped through my hoops. All the “B” guys that changed over with me all had their state contractors license already. We just sucked it up. Like everyone before us. As far as the new CE/CW guys. They are already in. There is no contractors stringing them along. They just have to do their time. They have to do one extra year of school. They do three years of the apprenticeship as CE/CW and then changeover and do three more years as “A” apprentices. But they usually don’t have to take a cut in pay depending on how much experience they had. It’s not for everyone. It was well worth it for me. Yeah I wish I could have made JW faster, but I played the long game. I never even tried to get in as a first year apprentice


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

No doubt that the IBEW or any union is not perfect, but name any organization that is perfect.

But answer me this: Do you take the first Monday in September off every year? If so, remember to thank unions.


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## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

HertzHound said:


> Every local is different as is their region they are working out of. So my experience is going to be different, and it’s going to be different from members of my own local.
> 
> Your (1). Your area local has over 3,000 members. They probably have hundreds of applicants that they can’t take in every year. They may even be weedeing out the one and done applicants. The ones that had no experience and weren’t even sure if they would like the trade. There is going to be family in the local. There’s plenty of family outside the local in open shops. The best thing a member can do if he wants to get his kid in, is make sure he did good in school, and get a job open shop for the experience. My state doesn’t have mandatory apprenticeship to work, so it’s a little easier to get out their and start working. At least 3/4 of my local doesn’t have relatives in the local. I don’t. As far as having to start again, and them not acknowledging any past time, it is what it is. Accept it, and get over it, or don’t. In the end your never going to stop taking classes and learning. It’s never ending.
> 
> ...



uhhhh I hate to black pill you but please speak for your local not mine unless you’ve worked in it. 

Even 569 members on the r/ibew subreddit can all pretty much confirm the lower pay. A lot say they MIGHT not have joined the union if they knew how it was here and stayed merit. I’m the first to think the union apprientices who whine about the smallest things are being pansies , yes, this is electrical work , not the ****ing Girl Scouts , we’re men but getting told you’re not entitled to your pay rate or any breaks at all without leaving early is bullshit. That’s not something you should just suck up. You give an inch and the contractor starts taking a mile.

You might be on to something with not getting your licensed recognized though. In CA , most unions require a state approved apprenticeship. Otj hours don’t necessarily qualify you for jw depending on the local. Neither do bullshit “ET” classes.

some shops do have their own secret books and yes CWs are often filled with empty promises about guarnteed apprentice placement. Dyna is one of the biggest shops here and they’re ****ing famous for it. Ask any book 1 wiremen in 569 and they’ll tell you this.

They don’t give a **** about violating the contract because people are so desperate for work here and the union perks they keep their mouth shut.

dyna is high roller dude. They’re not gonna drop them for violating the contract. They’ll look the other way.

I’ll give you credit for the book thing too, we don’t know the situation with those 300 or so guys. I know when I filled out cw paper work at the hall I called dispatch every night and nothing. Then when I went to resign they said they don’t have any cw calls for the foreseeable future ( might have been COVID). I really hope that’s because they’re finally filling those calls with apprentices instead but that’s very unlikely. So much bureaucratic BS if you ask me.

“muh union can’t be corrupt”



Please........


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I have nothing against unions and i have been a member in the past. My biggest problem always seemed to be with the shop stewards that seemed to be power hungry little pricks that would never have made a position for themselves outside of the union.
As a outsider i generally get nothing but abuse when we are working in the same area as the union guys but as i have a serious messed up sense of humor so im ok with that. One of my jobs is to sign off on there work and fill in the punch list so i smile a lot.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

dg628 said:


> uhhhh I hate to black pill you but please speak for your local not mine unless you’ve worked in it.
> Please........



Unless you have a reading comprehension problem you totally missed the fact that he prefaced his post with:

"Every local is different as is their region they are working out of. So my experience is going to be different, and it’s going to be different from members of my own local."


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Any person who tells you that a shop has its own book is an idiot. 
Shops may have a list of people that they will turn away aka spin around to the hall and they have that right per the contract to to deny a call. This is to keep well known [email protected] off their jobs. 

In our business its easy to "pigeon holed" into a task. This really depends on the company and type of work they do. He is a power guy, he is a pipe guy, he a fire alarm guy, he is a lighting guy, he is security guy etc etc etc. I was a power guy, pulled wire, did conduit but before I am also well rounded so I do various other tasks. I can read prints and do fire alarm but I am not the guy you would ask to trouble shoot it because while I could others are better at it through repetition same is true for lighting on the smart systems where the components sent out are completely wrong -- Lutron is well known for doing this. I would have no idea if a component is not capable but others do. I have worked on smart lighting systems, terminated panels etc etc but lets say the prints missed a booster out in the field because the wire is so long... I would be sitting there with my d!ck in my hands trying to figure out whats wrong while someone else would pick up on it right away. You want to be well rounded but there is far to much in our business to be the "guy" for all the various aspects. I stepped away from power and large conduit which I loved because of the mindset of far too many doing it... the old look at those small wires how cute, look at that 3/4 conduit how small like large wire or conduit makes them a damn man.... 
Fact is that many suck at other tasks. 

Now to what is really important. Your local needs new leadership because they sound like they are more content on "protecting" what they have then expanding and taking part on the non union market. My union aggressively went after the non union market share with market recovery programs and it worked. Guys are in the suburbs doing jobs mid size and small jobs once not even thought of when most work used to be the urban core and much still is.
It wasn't pretty when it was enacted about 20 years ago and many loudly complained but the forward thinking of competent, good leadership expanded our market share to levels unseen before. Are they perfect, far from it and many things I despise but the drive to expand market share is one thing I love and they were forced to do this because like your union they got complacent.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Go to a different local. I didn't have friends or family and got into mine as a CE. Got my license, turned in my hours and turned out as a JIW 2 years later. A contractor was willing to pay me JIW wages since I was licensed while I finished off my 14,000 otj hours.

I've gone from CE to JIW, been a steward several times, been a foreman and a general foreman for several years simply because I wanted to be. Nobody held me back. I've looked out for the guys even when I was a foreman, and have always done my best to be fair to all and made sure they had their steward present if we had to have a talk. Most guys here don't even know to ask for their job steward but it's what separates us from open shop. A guy to back you up and be in your corner.

I've had my own issues with my local, but I'd still take this over most open shops any day.

Regardless of the contract, we'd all be better off if we made a point to be fair and look out for each other.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## dg628 (Jan 9, 2020)

TGGT said:


> Go to a different local. I didn't have friends or family and got into mine as a CE. Got my license, turned in my hours and turned out as a JIW 2 years later. A contractor was willing to pay me JIW wages since I was licensed while I finished off my 14,000 otj hours.
> 
> I've gone from CE to JIW, been a steward several times, been a foreman and a general foreman for several years simply because I wanted to be. Nobody held me back. I've looked out for the guys even when I was a foreman, and have always done my best to be fair to all and made sure they had their steward present if we had to have a talk. Most guys here don't even know to ask for their job steward but it's what separates us from open shop. A guy to back you up and be in your corner.
> 
> ...


The money in the puget area in western Washington and no Income tax is very very tempting plus you’re in arguably the most beautiful area of the US. I’d probably have a much easier time in local 46 , being prior service and having experience I’m sure I’d make a decent number on the list. I don’t want to leave San Diego though. The Seattle area sucks for day to day life. My sister lives there and she says it’s too insanely progressive for even her.

The city’s downtown area is being burned and turning into a ghost town. It’s a shame , it was a cool city but that was before my time. Clown world is in full effect there.

San Diego is dope but I see the writing on the wall for CA. I still have my ET card for WA just in case I ever change my mind but I’m hoping a union shop can hire me as just a helper or pre apprientice up there and write me a letter of recommendation for 46. I’d take the demotion for that.

union shops here take pre-apprentices iirc. I remember seeing it somewhere in our agreement but I’m not sure how that works compared to the CW program.


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## NotMeAgain (Jun 10, 2021)

As of June 2021, I recently got out of the Air Force after 8 years as an electrician (Back in March) and went to my local 684 in California... They were very nice and welcoming. I made them fully aware that I know enough that I should be a journeyman, but I’m not the ****, there’s a lot of things that are done very differently on the outside in terms of trade skills and even certain technology (like certain brackets and just how to strap things... or welding). They put me through an aptitude test and I passed all 5 components.

I have a lot to learn still, but they gave me Journey pay and I recently got my first civilian job and call! Pretty exciting! I signed their books only a few weeks ago and COVID has everything so backed up I won’t be seeing my Exam date from the DIR for probably a couple more weeks at least, I applied maybe 4 weeks ago.

So I have some 15,000+ hours as an electrician... But the work was just different... Very, very old school. My mentor, the man I thought was a genius electrician when we were in the service together, said it took him 9 months to get spun up on how the civilian world does things, and he had been an electrician for 15 years. He’s at a local out in Michigan, but he loves the union. Loves it. The camaraderie is very similar to the Air Force... It’s one of the things I also love about the union.

Tool belts are like... They’re so obvious. But I never had one in the service, they don’t teach us to have them (maybe something to do with our uniforms?)

So I’m getting a lot of **** for being a journeyman and not being like... IBEW quality. But I’m doing the best I can and trying not to look stupid; but I also am not afraid to ask stupid questions (saves everyone time in the long run). The union has its ups and downs, but they have helped me out a lot, so I see more ups than downs.

You also can’t beat $42/hr, plus full benis for the fam, a pension, and a Beni-card too... I mean... Not every local is like California; but hell, I work swings and I’ll be finding myself at the training hall this week so I can get spun up on stuff. I really want to keep my job and make the union proud.

Union workers are just a proud bunch, and that’s good! Taking pride in one’s work trickles down to everyone involved... Perhaps not all unions are the same, but I hope I’m not just lucky for being in the same area as 684, I hope most are like mine.

Every non-union job offer has been less than $35/hr for me in my area and $400 in health benefits... It’s a slap in the face in California for a licensed General Electrician... I might have taken it with full benefits, but that’s a lot of contractors around here.

Sorry about your luck man. Try another local though... I am a big believer there are those who actually want to help. But if you try to get into the apprenticeship, good luck, the classrooms can’t fit an unlimited number of people... So it’s tough. You could always join the Air Force for a few years (get free schooling for it too, and opportunities to be a lineman, oh and can’t forget the VA loan, they just removed the VA Loan limits too... You only have to qualify now... 2.5% fixed rate mortgage).


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## wannabetech (Nov 21, 2019)

I stopped paying attention after the second paragraph where you mentioned being a part of the mentally unstable, liberal Reddit community. If you’re against better pay and better benefits then by all means, continue to gripe about it on the internet. That always makes things better


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## RemoPearl (8 mo ago)

A non union co. wouldn't hire me (resi work), a local took me in, 

BUT.........it is a business relationship......as long as the dues come in , the I.O. is happy & the hall gets a %age of my pay,.....I have no gripes, I've traveled some.....the impression I had 15+ yrs, ago has tarnished....like it did for people before me that I met that were 15+ yrs. older than me.....15+ yrs. ago.



The top brass needs to spend a few weeks w/o a comfy office and AC and get a taste of what it's like for us ham & eggers that make the contractors shine while we take pay cuts ( $.25/hr for night shift diff. wtf? ) , as the BA's bend over for mega giant contractors............remember , the BA's NEVER take pay cuts,,,,,


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Don't forget that many homeowners simply could not afford to buy a house if it was built by ALL union carpenters, electricians, plumbers, carpet installers, painters, union tile guys, etc. The cost of the house would be astronomical. And I doubt most of the union guys on here would want to pay union rates for any and everything that needs install or repair at their own house. If everything had to be at union rates your union pay would be considered Sh*t.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

in my mind ,,, unions had their place nearly a century ago
when the factory owners and so forth dictated the wages

nowadays ... not so much

but we still have to thank them for getting everyone on a better standard of pay and living 

to this day there are many unions in factories and mills
most states dont force you to join them, optional usually

but in some places they still have a worthwhile function


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Don't forget that many homeowners simply could not afford to buy a house if it was built by ALL union carpenters, electricians, plumbers, carpet installers, painters, union tile guys, etc. The cost of the house would be astronomical. And I doubt most of the union guys on here would want to pay union rates for any and everything that needs install or repair at their own house. If everything had to be at union rates your union pay would be considered Sh*t.


That’s a lie and you know it!  We all get paid the same, Union or not. I read it on here all the time. 

There are different rates along with the different classifications. My local has always had a “B” rate for residential/small commercial. That’s how I got my foot in the door after working five years Non-Union and four years of school. The rate was 50% of JW with the same benefits minus the annuity.

This reminds me of conversations with my old roommate. There were four of us renting the house in the affluent town that they grew up in. One was working his way up the ladder on Wall Street, the other was in Re-insurance, also in Manhattan. The two of them would bitch about how expensive it was to buy a house. They both blamed the Unions. My $11.54 an hour (1988) was bringing the housing market to its knees. And although our local did have purely residential contractors, it didn’t have the market share non-Union had.
So, what happened to my old roommates? The Wall Street guy cashed out at maybe 40, and started a business in Maine selling logs that have been under a lake for centuries. His father had a seat on the NY stock exchange which he leased out. It was no wonder his kid had a job with one of the big investment firms. He was the first to move out. He would just hang out when he wanted to slum it. The other is now a big wig at the re-insurance company. Beautiful house on the river. Put his three kids through Ivy League schools. I could never afford his house or style of living. I’m just a lowly electrician ruining the housing market.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Don't forget that many homeowners simply could not afford to buy a house if it was built by ALL union carpenters, electricians, plumbers, carpet installers, painters, union tile guys, etc. The cost of the house would be astronomical. And I doubt most of the union guys on here would want to pay union rates for any and everything that needs install or repair at their own house. If everything had to be at union rates your union pay would be considered Sh*t.


My house was union built? There are many all
Union home builders around here. The shop rates between the two are the same, it just gets spread around more even. The only thing that differs is the union members are better trained, better paid, and more well rounded.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> My house was union built? There are many all
> Union home builders around here. The shop rates between the two are the same, it just gets spread around more even. The only thing that differs is the union members are better trained, better paid, and more well rounded.


Bullshit


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Bullshit


Man they really brainwash you guys in the IEC don’t they ?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> Man they really brainwash you guys in the IEC don’t they ?


I am not union and have never been union. I do have to hire union guys on some of my jobs. For the most part they are really really lazy and have no clue what they are doing. NOTE: these are union guys that just get sent out by the mafia to work for non union companies so the union mafia can get there cut and pay off the local politicians. I'm sure union workers who work for union shops work much more efficiently and are better trained but the guys the ibew hall sends out to non union ECs are lazy and useless 9 out of ten times. These might be the people that give union guys the lazy rep. Im guessing the ibew sends out the guys that can't hold a job at the ibew shops.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> I am not union and have never been union. I do have to hire union guys on some of my jobs. For the most part they are really really lazy and have no clue what they are doing. NOTE: these are union guys that just get sent out by the mafia to work for non union companies so the union mafia can get there cut and pay off the local politicians. I'm sure union workers who work for union shops work much more efficiently and are better trained but the guys the ibew hall sends out to non union ECs are lazy and useless 9 out of ten times. These might be the people that give union guys the lazy rep.im guess the ibew sends out the guys that can't hold a job at the ibew shops.


You have literally no clue what you’re talking about. No dues money can go towards politics. It is illegal. Can you prove the mafia is part of the IBEW ? This is so fuggin dumb of a statement. The IBEW is majority Irish. Your opinion on who is lazy and isn’t is obviously Skewed. You also failed to prove how we aren’t better trained and paid or how non union shops charge the exact same per man hour and just keep more profit. Also have you considered maybe people lay down on you because you’re not nice to them and treat them poorly ?


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> You have literally no clue what you’re talking about. No dues money can go towards politics. It is illegal. Can you prove the mafia is part of the IBEW ? This is so fuggin dumb of a statement. The IBEW is majority Irish. Your opinion on who is lazy and isn’t is obviously Skewed. You also failed to prove how we aren’t better trained and paid or how non union shops charge the exact same per man hour and just keep more profit. Also have you considered maybe people lay down on you because you’re not nice to them and treat them poorly ?


Lol, I'm stating the union is the modern day mafia. Look at who is the top contributors to ANY election, it is always a Union. Not a coincidence. This is how they pay them off.

Around here almost no one is irish that comes from the local unions. I treat EVERYONE on the job site with respect, Period. Like I said I think the people the local union mafia sends to non union ECs are the bottom of the barrel. *Just looking around this site the most knowledgeable members are both union and non union*. I have a feeling these people will do good in their trade no matter what because they have the personal drive from within themselves to learn and do good work. Union or non union have nothing to do with it. 

Also on here many many union guys do non union side jobs for well below the going rate. A lot state it's to help the old lady or neighbor who is poor, blah blah blah. They do it for profit and they also know the union rates don't translate to most residential jobs. I work 95-98% commercial and pay PW wages. I have to on some jobs and do it anyways on all other jobs because I have a mixture of public works jobs and non public works and my guys are good and worth every penny no matter what the job. Cost gets past along to customer. There is no way in he'll I could rope a house and not loose money if I had to pay PW wages on those jobs. That's why I don't do residential.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Lol, I'm stating the union is the modern day mafia. Look at who is the top contributors to ANY election, it is always a Union. Not a coincidence. This is how they pay them off.
> 
> Around here almost no one is irish that comes from the local unions. I treat EVERYONE on the job site with respect, Period. Like I said I think the people the local union mafia sends to non union ECs are the bottom of the barrel. *Just looking around this site the most knowledgeable members are both union and non union*. I have a feeling these people will do good in their trade no matter what because they have the personal drive from within themselves to learn and do good work. Union or non union have nothing to do with it.
> 
> Also on here many many union guys do non union side jobs for well below the going rate. A lot state it's to help the old lady or neighbor who is poor, blah blah blah. They do it for profit and they also know the union rates don't translate to most residential jobs. I work 95-98% commercial and pay PW wages. I have to on some jobs and do it anyways on all other jobs because I have a mixture of public works jobs and non public works and my guys are good and worth every penny no matter what the job. Cost gets past along to customer. There is no way in he'll I could rope a house and not loose money if I had to pay PW wages on those jobs. That's why I don't do residential.


That’s crazy that non union guys can’t rope a house cheaper than a union guy can? They must be poorly trained.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Also what’s this mafia you speak of? Any political money donated. Was donated by the members for that purpose. Has nothing to do with dues. Its
Literally the same as you or I giving someone 20$


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> Also what’s this mafia you speak of? Any political money donated. Was donated by the members for that purpose. Has nothing to do with dues. Its
> Literally the same as you or I giving someone 20$


32 million from the local union to a mayor's position in LA is not the same. If each member wants to donate, let them do on their own.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> 32 million from the local union to a mayor's position in LA is not the same. If each member wants to donate, let them do on their own.


They do. What are you not understanding? I and many other choose to donate to my locals political fund for them to donate to candidates who support union labor


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> That’s crazy that non union guys can’t rope a house cheaper than a union guy can? They must be poorly trained.


Unions do not build residential around here because they can't compete due to their rates. How is this hard for you to understand? I said I couldn't build residential and turn a profit because I pay my guys PW wages and couldn't compete or turn a profit on the going rate to rope a house. My wage rate before material would be higher than the total job of the local builders. The only union residential around here is high rise apartments and condos due to size. So you either have union or non union shops that are large and job is no where near the residential price per square foot a house would be.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> They do. What are you not understanding? I and many other choose to donate to my locals political fund for them to donate to candidates who support union labor


Yep, To guarantee you keep your local government payed benefits(payed indirectly by the mandated union projects) that otherwise could not be afforded for by the type of service you offer in any other setting. It's modern day mafia. The union literally says "You have to use our guys on that project or you can't do it". Straight up mafia tactics. They then "donate " money to those politicians to make sure certain jobs are union only.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Yep, To guarantee you keep your local government payed benefits(payed indirectly by the mandated union projects) that otherwise could not be afforded for by the type of service you offer in any other setting. It's modern day mafia. The union literally says "You have to use our guys on that project or you can't do it". Straight up mafia tactics. They then "donate " money to those politicians to make sure certain jobs are union only.


Ya it doesn’t work like that.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Unions do not build residential around here because they can't compete due to their rates. How is this hard for you to understand? I said I couldn't build residential and turn a profit because I pay my guys PW wages and couldn't compete or turn a profit on the going rate to rope a house. My wage rate before material would be higher than the total job of the local builders. The only union residential around here is high rise apartments and condos due to size. So you either have union or non union shops that are large and job is no where near the residential price per square foot a house would be.


I doubt it. You just don’t wanna pay.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> Ya it doesn’t work like that.


That's exactly how it works on jobs that require union labor. I know because I have to file 10 times the paperwork and comply with the BS on those jobs. I will not do any that require only union labor. I do the jobs that require only a percent of my work to be completed by a union apprentice (1/5th of all hours must be by a union apprentice). Otherwise I'm not even allowed to do physical work on those jobs(100% union only) because I'm not "Skilled Labor" trained by a union. AND 100% of all labor hours on jobs that require me to have a union apprentice I have to pay a per labor hour rate to the union training fund (California Apprentice Council training fund). Even for the hours I work and the hours my non union JWs work. For training we do not benefit from. Complete Mafia tactics.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> I doubt it. You just don’t wanna pay.


It's amazing how everyone talks about the greed and profits of a business when they probably never ran a successful business in their life. You obviously have NO CLUE the costs it takes to run a business and pay for overhead. I choose not to do residential because I could not compete while paying my guys the wages I feel they deserve and yes what I deserve. I also prefer more technical jobs that pay better so I can make a good living while also paying my guys a good living. Those jobs are not generally residential. It's almost always a union guy who's never owned or run a business that is an expert on how much it cost to operate a business and how all ECs are skum,greededy and don't want to pay a good wage. Then they do side jobs under cutting everyone with no overhead and say how everyone rips everyone off.

If the local government wants to mandate a minimum wage, requirements for health care and pension fine. Let's do it without a union and cut out those greedy middleman who have fancy cars, houses, and yachts that don't do any of the physical work themselves. Unions had a place years ago, now they are the swamp. NOTE: I'm saying the union is a swamp not the workers.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This is from Larry Haun's book, "A Carpenter's Life as Told By Houses." Haun worked in the postwar construction boom in southern California, he came up with some innovations to make framing much more efficient, a lot of his methods are now industry standards. It's pretty crazy how much things have changed with the economy and unions since the 1950's. 



> We were building solid, one- and two-story tract houses that working-class families could afford to buy. Brother Jim, taking advantage of the GI Bill, was able to move into a new three-bedroom house in the Valley in 1951 for $400 down. With the median house price around $9,000, his monthly payment was $65, which included taxes and insurance. For the first and probably the last time in our nation’s history, masses of ordinary workers could afford to buy and actually own homes; it was the American dream fulfilled.





> In 1953, my older brother, Jim, got a contractor’s license. My younger brother, Joe, was home alive from the Korean War, so we decided to start a business. A carpenter’s wage was around $2 an hour, $16 a day. We found a developer in the valley who was willing to let us do just the house framing for a flat fee. We became piece workers, being paid by work done and not by the hour. Framing a small, 900-sq.-ft. two-bedroom, one-bath house built on a concrete slab went for $90. A threebedroom, 1,100-sq.-ft. version went for $120. Framing included setting door jambs and window frames, putting on some redwood siding in the front, and making all ready for roofing and plaster. In a short time, we were framing one of these houses complete every day, making much more than our daily wage.
> 
> The fact that we were just labor contractors was resisted mightily by many older carpenters and by the carpenter’s union, fearing it would mean less work for its members and affect their paychecks. I recall a union business agent visiting our job site in 1954. He asked to see my long-handled, 22-oz. hammer. He walked to a saw and cut several inches off the handle so that it would comply with union rules. I went home that evening and put on an even longer handle.
> 
> Brother Jim was ordered to appear several times in front of the union governing boards to justify what we were doing. There is an old saying that lets you know how it all panned out: “You can cut the flowers, but you can’t hold back the spring.” The revolution in construction was on.


Point being, there was a time when union labor was viable for residential construction. In most of the country, it isn't any more, hasn't been for a long time. “You can cut the flowers, but you can’t hold back the spring.” You hear some stories like @HertzHound 's about chapters with scales that are realistic for residential construction but you hear far more where the union has just resigned itself to getting a big piece of pie for a sliver of the workers and a sliver of the market, then they wonder why the politicians that they support do so little for their sliver of the vote.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

splatz said:


> This is from Larry Haun's book, "A Carpenter's Life as Told By Houses." Haun worked in the postwar construction boom in southern California, he came up with some innovations to make framing much more efficient, a lot of his methods are now industry standards. It's pretty crazy how much things have changed with the economy and unions since the 1950's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting about the book, just ordered it. Used to enjoy his articles in Fine Homebuilding.


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