# Organizing



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Will the Union boot you if you don't try to organize?


----------



## Thomp (Feb 11, 2008)

You should talk only at lunch and break to your co workers about organizing and there is nothing the company can legally do about it. I came in with a group like that. Good luck


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

calimurray said:


> I got an email from Local 134, stating that I should organize the shop i work for, and a phone number to call. I have not called them yet , because I just got the email.
> 
> Has anybody done this on here,I mean I'll probably get fired trying this, maybe one of you guys can help....
> 
> What are my rights if I am unsuccessful?


Call them, get a NAME and all of the DETAILS and WRITE THEM DOWN. Then arrange a personal meeting. Organizing is a wonderful thing, but if it's done wrong or mistakes are made it can turn your life into a nightmare. You should want assurances that you will not suffer for your efforts.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I don't have any advice on how to pull this off, but good luck.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

This happened to a company I used to work for. The guys all got together and went union. 

For the life of me I cannot see how this is AT ALL legal. How can you force someone to make their company go union????? It should be the decision of the company owner or officials, not some outside group.

If you want to go union, quit the open company you are working for, go down to the hall (or where ever) and get assigned to a union shop. 

Can this be done with a sole prop shop, or only an incorporated shop? 

This is not a slam or intended to start another debate, but I am truly curious.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> This happened to a company I used to work for. The guys all got together and went union.
> 
> For the life of me I cannot see how this is AT ALL legal. How can you force someone to make their company go union????? It should be the decision of the company owner or officials, not some outside group.
> 
> ...


I think if enough of the guys tell the employer that they are organizing and going union, then the employer either agrees with them and pays them their union scale and benefits or doesn't and risks losing them all.


----------



## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I think if enough of the guys tell the employer that they are organizing and going union, then the employer either agrees with them and pays them their union scale and benefits or doesn't and risks losing them all.


 OR close the doors , go fishing, come back 2 weeks later and hire a whole new crew . ( i saw it )


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

steelersman said:


> I think if enough of the guys tell the employer that they are organizing and going union, then the employer either agrees with them and pays them their union scale and benefits or doesn't and risks losing them all.


So I guess it is less of a fact of being _forced_ into changing than it is being scared that you will loose all your men. 
OK, that makes sense then.




paul d. said:


> OR close the doors , go fishing, come back 2 weeks later and hire a whole new crew . ( i saw it )


That's what I would do.


----------



## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> This happened to a company I used to work for. The guys all got together and went union.
> 
> For the life of me I cannot see how this is AT ALL legal. How can you force someone to make their company go union????? It should be the decision of the company owner or officials, not some outside group.
> 
> ...


I contacted the organizer at 134 to possibly join, and he responded with you should organize your company. The only hall I know of is local 701 which takes applications every other Tuesday but they are way far from where i live.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Go to the organizer.

Grab a stack of yellow cards.

Have as many electricians at your shop as you can get, sign those yellow cards.

The local's hands are tied when it comes to many things, at best, the local could send the guys in your shop a letter and video about the benefits of joining, but your hands are not tied.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

calimurray said:


> I contacted the organizer at 134 to possibly join, and he responded with you should organize your company.


Of course he did. :whistling2:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Be careful the owner of the company that your working for might tell all of you that want to join the union to go ahead , and he goes out and find replacements for all of you. Right now there are plenty of electricians will ing to work.


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cal, I wish you the best of luck. Here is a link that may help answer some of the basics about your rights, minimum requirements and some of what to expect.
http://clear.uhwo.hawaii.edu/CB-FAQ.html#Q3


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Be careful the owner of the company that your working for might tell all of you that want to join the union to go ahead , and he goes out and find replacements for all of you. Right now there are plenty of electricians will ing to work.


Don't talk to the owner. Only a ****** would go talk to the owner.
You think he wants to give up the Escalade, second and third vacation homes, silver plated Quad, and daughters BMW?


----------



## Thomp (Feb 11, 2008)

calimurray- Talk to the Local's business manager. In Chicago this shouldn't be to hard to pull off. It is a strong Union city. Good luck Thomp


----------



## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I think if enough of the guys tell the employer that they are organizing and going union, then the employer either agrees with them and pays them their union scale and benefits or doesn't and risks losing them all.


What risk is there in losing everyone? How many people are unemployed right now? Just be thankful you have a job. 



paul d. said:


> OR close the doors , go fishing, come back 2 weeks later and hire a whole new crew . ( i saw it )


Yup. I know a company that did that here. They caught wind of the employees wanting to go union so he layed everyone off went on vacation and hired guys that actually wanted to work. 
It was stupid too because the shop had great benefits and as far as I knew treated the employees great, really no benefit to even going union.


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I know I might "stepping in it" with this remark but here goes anyway.

I seems to me that this method is sort of underhanded and sleezy.
Why does the union insist on sneaking in the back door like this?


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Good luck, Cal, you will never regret joining with your brothers in 134. The timing is not good, there are 1800 members on the bench. But Chicago is a great town and 134 is a great local and things will turn around eventually.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Don't talk to the owner. Only a ****** would go talk to the owner.
> You think he wants to give up the Escalade, second and third vacation homes, silver plated Quad, and daughters BMW?


What gets me is comments like this. Like open shop owners: a) are the only ones that have all this; and b) have all this period. 

I know some open shop electrical contractors that have nice houses and toys, but the union shop owners are doing just as well or better. I don't know ANY that have three vacation homes. 

So how are the above comments AT ALL valid??? For the most part it is pure sensationalism and sarcasm.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I know I might "stepping in it" with this remark but here goes anyway.
> 
> I seems to me that this method is sort of underhanded and sleezy.
> Why does the union insist on sneaking in the back door like this?


It has been a very standard practice for a long time. I guess back when things were really bad for the employees it was a good choice.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> What gets me is comments like this. Like open shop owners: a) are the only ones that have all this; and b) have all this period.
> 
> I know some open shop electrical contractors that have nice houses and toys, but the union shop owners are doing just as well or better. I don't know ANY that have three vacation homes.
> 
> So how are the above comments AT ALL valid??? For the most part it is pure sensationalism and sarcasm.


Sensationalism and sarcasm? That sounds familiar!


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I know I might "stepping in it" with this remark but here goes anyway.
> 
> I seems to me that this method is sort of underhanded and sleezy.
> Why does the union insist on sneaking in the back door like this?


Read the link Goose posted. I thought like you do now, until I read that link. It opened my eyes to the way things can go.
It doesn't change my mind in any way, just saw what the law was all about.


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

....


----------



## Augie (Mar 10, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Don't talk to the owner. Only a ****** would go talk to the owner.
> You think he wants to give up the Escalade, second and third vacation homes, silver plated Quad, and daughters BMW?


 If yea envy what the owner has why not become an owner yourself.Seems there is no understanding of risk and reward on these boards.I just dont understand complaining about what someone else has instead of going out and doing what it takes to get it for yourself.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Augie said:


> If yea envy what the owner has why not become an owner yourself.Seems there is no understanding of risk and reward on these boards.I just dont understand complaining about what someone else has instead of going out and doing what it takes to get it for yourself.


Sure, will the owner of IES Co. please step forward? Last I heard, IES lost their bonding capacity and went after all the small jobs that you mom&pop shops need for bread&butter. So you see, Oldman's 'Circle of life' runs in reverse too. 

Nobody wants to organize you and your five man shop. But I'll bet your most talented installer sure would be happier on the other side once he found out how good it is.


----------



## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Organizing the company I work for is not the option I am looking for:
1. I contacted the union and there only answer for me is to organize my shop, It's obvious that they have no work and are not accepting apps, from journeymen anyway. I organize the shop and my boss goes bankrupt, and then I get laid off, like most other union guys right now.

2.Everyone except for 1 person is anti-union, The one guy we got was union and he does not enjoy working non union let me tell ya.{ Limited Knowledge }

3. Forcing a company to go union seems unfair to me. If it were my company I would not be to happy about it thats for sure, it's another example of the crap the union pulls. I just want to join I don't want to force anybody to do something they don't want to do!It cost a lot of money for a contractor to be union why would I force that On a employer.


Union does offer a great package, but I will not be doing there dirty work to get in thats for sure, I'd like to join by applying so I guess I'll have to wait until they need guys huh!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> This happened to a company I used to work for. The guys all got together and went union.
> 
> For the life of me I cannot see how this is AT ALL legal. How can you force someone to make their company go union????? It should be the decision of the company owner or officials, not some outside group.


The company doesn't go union, the employees do.
As an American, you enjoy certian rights and freedoms. And as a group of Americans, you also have the right to decide to bargian with an employer collectively instead of as individuals. 



> If you want to go union, quit the open company you are working for, go down to the hall (or where ever) and get assigned to a union shop.


That's an option too but not the only option.



> Can this be done with a sole prop shop, or only an incorporated shop?


It can and is done all the time with sole prop shops.



> This is not a slam or intended to start another debate, but I am truly curious.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paul d. said:


> OR close the doors , go fishing, come back 2 weeks later and hire a whole new crew . ( i saw it )


This would prompt a legal action. Once a company is union, that's it. Even if it reincorporates and changes it's name it's still a union shop. Unions get the largest back-pay awards from contractors who do these things.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> What risk is there in losing everyone? How many people are unemployed right now? Just be thankful you have a job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why would the employees of a shop that are getting treated well and getting great benifits want to join a union? Maybe this is the way the owner tells the story?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> What gets me is comments like this. Like open shop owners: a) are the only ones that have all this; and b) have all this period.
> 
> I know some open shop electrical contractors that have nice houses and toys, but the union shop owners are doing just as well or better. I don't know ANY that have three vacation homes.
> 
> So how are the above comments AT ALL valid??? For the most part it is pure sensationalism and sarcasm.


Petey...

I think the comment was meant to stir the pot a little, but I can recall an incident where a shop was being organized and this situation rang very true. Back in the early 90's a shop owner had a beautiful home on Long Island's North Shore (the "Gold Coast") in an exclusive waterfront community. He drove a Jaguar, his wife (who never worked a day in her life) had 2 matching Meercedes Benzs, one a convertable. He owned not 1 but 3 boats, one docked near the home and the other 2 on the South Shore because it's easier to access the Ocean and the Barrier Beaches of Fire Island and the Hamptons that way. 

His daughter was the company "comptroller" who worked about 4 hours a week processing the payroll and paying the bills, and for this was "paid" a 6-figure salary. 

This owner had the entire shop duped into believing his wife's family had all the money, and the shop was just barely keeping it's head above water. I brought these guys in a mini-schoolbus TO HIS HOUSE and TO THE DOCKS (on both shores) to show them how well he was actually doing, and we researched the local paper's archives to find the wedding announcement to prove to his employees that his wife's family was actually DIRT POOR! (These guys were scared if the union made them pay real wages and benifits the shop would just close and go bankrupt.) 

In the end it organized, and has been so ever since, and nobody lost their job, except the daughter.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Augie said:


> If yea envy what the owner has why not become an owner yourself. Seems there is no understanding of risk and reward on these boards. I just dont understand complaining about what someone else has instead of going out and doing what it takes to get it for yourself.


I think everyone understands risk & reward, just as most people understand glouttony and just compensation and that a rising tide raises all ships. 

I don't think owning an expensive car and having a beautiful home in an expensive neighborhood and a bunch of boy's toys, and the trophy wife is the definition of success. Success to me is, how are your employees doing?


----------



## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I think everyone understands risk & reward, just as most people understand glouttony and just compensation and that a rising tide raises all ships.
> 
> I don't think owning an expensive car and having a beautiful home in an expensive neighborhood and a bunch of boy's toys, and the trophy wife is the definition of success. Success to me is, how are your employees doing?


Very well put...so many companies these days are out of touch . Worked with the ones barely scraping by , worked with the ones who have three homes and cancer to boot . Yes some non-union companies pay good bennies...some match or exceed what the local around them offers....I guess I have to ask...if you're non-union...do you sign a a contract that is for you ? You sign one to cover your employers ass...but do you sign one that gives you rights also ? Do you have someone to back you up ? Do you as a non-union worker have to kiss ass when you don't want to ? Can you work in other states without filling out a job application when work gets slow ?JMO.

No company HAS to become a Union shop as stated before , they can refuse . Everyone has the right to do what they want....even to be union. It's called America....yet it seems the non-union are reaping the benefits so many generations have worked hard for ( Right to work states....yes..it still comes out of Union pockets IE Union members ) Sorry...done ranting .


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This would prompt a legal action. Once a company is union, that's it. Even if it reincorporates and changes it's name it's still a union shop. Unions get the largest back-pay awards from contractors who do these things.


This is my point. It is MY company. If I choose not to be a union shop NO ONE is going to force me into it. 
In this post you say it is the employees that go union, not the company.
If an employee of mine is not happy and wants to go union he is welcome to quit and go down to the hall, no hard feelings at all. Contrary to what some might think I am not anti-union for other folks. It's just not something I would do.

This is yet another in the long list of reasons I like to stay very small. :thumbsup:


----------



## unionwirewoman (Sep 7, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is my point. It is MY company. If I choose not to be a union shop NO ONE is going to force me into it.
> In this post you say it is the employees that go union, not the company.
> If an employee of mine is not happy and wants to go union he is welcome to quit and go down to the hall, no hard feelings at all. Contrary to what some might think I am not anti-union for other folks. It's just not something I would do.
> 
> This is yet another in the long list of reasons I like to stay very small. :thumbsup:


Well then , it's an easy solution...don't go Union . It is your company , and as stated a few times above , you don't have to , especially being a small shop . When I did HVAC , the small shop I worked for didn't pay good , but he'd send a $100 bill my way every once in awhile . He is a very nice guy and am still friends with him . Do what you have to do ...and treat your employees right ...they'll do what they want with thier lives , even if they go union . Shouldn't hurt you , nor any big business , as long as you can find quality workers . Not a jab to you !


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Always remember the Union has never put a single person to work ,outside of the business office, every person has went to work because of a contractor. Being Union doesn't gaurentee you work ,just ask the people sitting the bench right now.


----------



## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

In my opinion the International organizes to get people to pay union dues. The international does not care if you work or not as long as you pay your dues.

Contractors are about money right or wrong that is the nature of the beast. 

Its always about power or money or both


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

It's always about the money. For both contractors and employees. And there is nothing wrong with that. 

But how man employees risk everything they have everyday in order to produce and provide jobs?

When an employee starts doing that, he can talk about the greedy contractor and what's fair. 

Until then, itks just a bunch of whining and crying. If you work for a bad boss, quit. Get another job. Become your own boss. But to sit there and bemoan that a contractor isn't fair, or that you deserve more, well that reminds me of 10 year olds. 

So when you choose to act like a kid, stop getting upset that you are treated like a kid.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In some cases the unions have worked hard on the behalf of their members gaining new contractors


http://www.fklaborlaw.com/union-salt-objectives.html


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Salting is why I did not join when I was offered a guaranteed in with the local.
I was working for a company that was only a few years old ,at the time, had 30 men and lots of good commercial work. 
Next thing you know here comes the union salt, trying to sneak in under the radar,in the back door. They caused so much sh*t in that company that the owner gave serious thought to closing up shop. Cost the company a ton of money in legal fee's and lost production. The union used some underhanded tactics to get enough guys to sign cards expressing interest in the union.
The labor board was brought in as a vote was called for. 
The companies owner, his lawyer(s), the union reps, and the labor board spent 3 months arguing over who was allowed to vote and who was not.

The union vote was a drastic failure with only 4 votes for and 25 against. 

The union lost because they did not do their homework. The company gave raises 1 time a year. They were also in the process of promoting 2 guys to foreman positions with new trucks. The union became involved at this time and when the labor board came in they prohibited giving any raises or promotions until after the issue was settled. They didn't want it to look like the company was "buying" their votes.

Salting is what gives the IBEW a bad name.


----------



## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

oldman said:


> It's always about the money. For both contractors and employees. And there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> But how man employees risk everything they have everyday in order to produce and provide jobs?
> 
> ...


 
OH PLEASE with the contractor concerned about providing jobs- some are and are good contractors, most are not. Just because a person is a contractor does not mean they are risking everything and should be treated as some kind of God. Most are greedy arrogrant assholes and yes you can always quit, but dont act like contractors are something special.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> OH PLEASE with the contractor concerned about providing jobs- some are and are good contractors, most are not. Just because a person is a contractor does not mean they are risking everything and should be treated as some kind of God. Most are greedy arrogant assholes and yes you can always quit, but don't act like contractors are something special.


Have you EVER been a contractor? No we are not god but, everything about contracting is a risk, starting out is very risky slip up and you can lose it all, one bad bid and you can lose it all, stupid employee and he messes up badly cost exceeds your insurance limits you can lose it all, not including one to three years where the employees get regular paychecks while you scrap by. 60-120 hours a week, salesman, accountant, electrician, master electrician, baby sitter, purchasing agent, estimator, foreman, customer representative. 

GET REAL, being a contractor takes something a little extra above the average electrician otherwise everyone would contract. 

I work with countless contractors in my 25 years (ECs are my customers) most are decent fair employers some are jerks BUT in almost all cases risk were involved in starting their company.

Did you live in TN. as a union electrician or did you retire there?


----------



## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Don't talk to the owner. Only a ****** would go talk to the owner.
> You think he wants to give up the Escalade, second and third vacation homes, silver plated Quad, and daughters BMW?


Obviously a post from someone who has never run his own shop...

You ought to look in your own back yard, the compensation plans the big boys at the union get is way more than I make. I wonder how many vacation homes Ed Hill has and why he has better insurance than you.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> OH PLEASE with the contractor concerned about providing jobs- some are and are good contractors, most are not. Just because a person is a contractor does not mean they are risking everything and should be treated as some kind of God. Most are greedy arrogrant assholes and yes you can always quit, but dont act like contractors are something special.


True, but the same can be said for open shop contractors. :whistling2:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> True, but the same can be said for open shop contractors. :whistling2:



This is so true and as both sides give their point of view one thing is continuously obvious, there are good and bad on both sides of this discussion. When it comes to work there also good and bad being union does not make you a better electrician and working open shop does not make you a bad person.

There are a number of members that were open shop prior to joining the IBEW, did the magically become abetter workers, most likely not.

When I worked open shop during slow times there were always a slew of applications from union men. I always wondered why were called names during good times but were OK guys when times were lean?


----------



## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

I do not know how this topic got turned to a conversation between open shop or union. I was talking about contractors.
Brian if it was so hard to be a contractor why woud anyone be one. I am sure not jealous of anything that someone else has whether they be contractors or whatever.
I have known only a few contractors and have mostly only worked with or for their managemen team, foreman on up.
A lot of these so called management teams have very few people skills and supervisor skills. Most everything is blamed on the worker when alot of times it is management that is at fault. Management seems to worry about 5 or 10 minutes instead of the whole working day. If contractors had better management teams they could make a lot more money. Contractors usually dont promote the best electrician to foreman they promote the best suckasses and yes man.
I owe a contractor nothing except an honest days pay for an agreed upon wage. I do believe that a business should pay a decent wage, health insurance and some form of retirement benefits or they should not be allosed to be in business. I realize there are bad employees, but that is simple to remedy with a lay off slip.
Its a catch 22, contractors need workers and workers need contractors.

Brian the whole thing about organizing is the IBEW takes in bodies and very little work. So there is an excess of workers all paying dues. 
Brian where I live has nothing to do with this discussion.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> I do not know how this topic got turned to a conversation between open shop or union.


the OP and the point of the thread is organizing an open shop into a union shop...that's how it got turned into a conversation between open shop and union...



retired 7373 said:


> I was talking about contractors.
> Brian if it was so hard to be a contractor why woud anyone be one. I am sure not jealous of anything that someone else has whether they be contractors or whatever.


most guys become contractors in an effort to create a better life for themselves...it's hard, and risky, but the upside is unlimited...and you may not be jealous, you just feel they should give you more...




retired 7373 said:


> I have known only a few contractors and have mostly only worked with or for their managemen team, foreman on up.
> A lot of these so called management teams have very few people skills and supervisor skills. Most everything is blamed on the worker when alot of times it is management that is at fault. Management seems to worry about 5 or 10 minutes instead of the whole working day. If contractors had better management teams they could make a lot more money. Contractors usually dont promote the best electrician to foreman they promote the best suckasses and yes man.
> I owe a contractor nothing except an honest days pay for an agreed upon wage. I do believe that a business should pay a decent wage, health insurance and some form of retirement benefits or they should not be allosed to be in business. I realize there are bad employees, but that is simple to remedy with a lay off slip.
> Its a catch 22, contractors need workers and workers need contractors.
> ...


what you want is socialism, bordering on communism...unfortunately for me (and other capitalists) this country is on the verge of giving you your wish...

but where you live has much to do with it...all the benefits you want cost money...that cost has to be passed along to the end user (customer or taxpayer)...if you retired to tennessee due to a lower cost of living, it's due to less wages and benefits to the public employees...so, you want more for you...but not so much more for everyone else...

there are great union electricians out there...but they are not in here complaining that they deserve more...they prove it and earn it...if not, they move on to where they do...


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

*organizing*








*organizing* 
If an electrician signs on with a local fo a few years.

Does that mean he can never do electrical work agin unless


he works through the union?


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

luby104 said:


> *organizing*
> If an electrician signs on with a local fo a few years.
> 
> Does that mean he can never do electrical work agin unless
> ...


the union is not a gang. I know some will say it is, but you can leave the union anytime you want, unlike a gang where the only way out is to die.


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

The "union" shop I worked with was great.

But will I ever be able to work for an "onion"

shop agin without getting harassed or sued by IBEW?

Mi reason for asking is because I really enjoy electrical

work. But I don't think I could handle the heavy pipe

and "big" mcm anymore. But I might still be able to pull

rope and do recpts and stuff for some local onion shop.

Would the union have a problem with that?


----------



## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

oldman said:


> the OP and the point of the thread is organizing an open shop into a union shop...that's how it got turned into a conversation between open shop and union...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
totally amazing- I was born in Tennessee- Capitalists is what you want -well you got your fair share in the last 8 years. I still say just because a person starts or owns a business does not mean he or they are special. Are they driven-yes-do they make sacrifices-yes- should they be allowed to suck the blood out of their employees-no-
OLD MAN- no where did I say anything about deserving more- your words-


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Hey what's this...?

I think...I think it's a horse...

-sniff-

Whoa! Long dead too.

Anybody wanna take a bat to it?

Y'know, just for kicks?


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Hey what's this...?
> 
> I think...I think it's a horse...
> 
> ...


:hammer::bangin:


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry


----------



## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

luby104 said:


> The "union" shop I worked with was great.
> 
> But will I ever be able to work for an "onion"
> 
> ...



If you formally leave the union...No.
If you are paying dues and working on the side...Yes.
If you are retired and drawing a pension. BIG YES.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Brian where I live has nothing to do with this discussion.



My point there was trying to figure out if you worked in the IBEW in the south or in the north retiring to TN. NO harm meant.


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks Mr ousooner.


I believe that I may have formally left.

Not sure because they never wrote back.

Six years ago, I sent them a registered, return receipt requested,

notarized letter stating that I no longer wanted to be in the IBEW.

There were many not working at the time. But I was. So there was

resentment. They had wives, children and/or lots of bills. I had none of

the above. So I quit. They received my letter but never responded. 

I am not retired but I have no job. Can I go back to doing electrical

work of some kind without getting sued by union?


----------



## ousoonerfan3 (Jun 29, 2008)

Art XXI Sec 4 of the IBEW Constitution states "Any member indebted to his L.U. for six (6) months' full dues shall be dropped from membership-by the F.S. and cannot become a member in good standing again in the I.B.E.W. except by joining as a new member."

If you dropped your card 6 years ago I would say you are free to do whatever you choose.


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you much Mr. Sooner.

You have been a great help.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is my point. It is MY company. If I choose not to be a union shop NO ONE is going to force me into it.


Petey, the problem with your thinkng here is when your employees decide to organize and join a union, it is their decision. There really is no designation "union shop" other than that's what someone might refer to a shop that has union employees working for it.



> In this post you say it is the employees that go union, not the company.
> If an employee of mine is not happy and wants to go union he is welcome to quit and go down to the hall, no hard feelings at all. Contrary to what some might think I am not anti-union for other folks. It's just not something I would do.


It isn't a question of happy or unhappy. Your employees have rights, including the right to union representation if that is what the majority of your employees desire. 

Now if the business owner isn't happy with that situatioon, he's free to close up shop and go into some other kind of business unrelated to the one that was organized... no hard feelings. 



> This is yet another in the long list of reasons I like to stay very small. :thumbsup:


The motto or mantra of the IBEW and probably every other union is "Organize the unorganized." 

Keep in mind Petey, if every single electrical worker and business in the US was union, how much better off everyone, INCLUDING the owners, even the owners of small shops would be? A rising tide raises all ships.

Also keep in mind, aside form one's own personal interest in and fondness of the electrical field, many if not most of us got into the electrical business because there was good money to be made. Well, were it not for the IBEW's actions and the American labor movement in general, do you think that would have ever been the case when you entered the field?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> Always remember the Union has never put a single person to work ,outside of the business office, every person has went to work because of a contractor. Being Union doesn't gaurentee you work ,just ask the people sitting the bench right now.


Well, the unions do fight for laws that result in more union work. Aside from that, you're generally correct. But also keep in mind no electrical contractor ever created a job either, electrical jobs exist because they do, and will exist whether there are contractors or not.

Contractors are the Madames.
Customers are the Johns.
Guess what I am? That's right - an electrician WH--E.

What my union DOES do is see to it that I'm paid and treated fairly, even when the current economy would be used against me.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well, the unions do fight for laws that result in more union work. Aside from that, you're generally correct. But also keep in mind no electrical contractor ever created a job either, electrical jobs exist because they do, and will exist whether there are contractors or not.
> 
> Contractors are the Madames.
> Customers are the Johns.
> ...


if things go wrong, the whore goes to jail for a night and gets a fine...the madame gets 5-10...more risk..more reward...contrary to what some would have you believe...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> It's always about the money. For both contractors and employees. And there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> But how man employees risk everything they have everyday in order to produce and provide jobs?
> 
> ...


Now now Oldman let's be realistic. The PRODUCT being sold is electrical work - LABOR. Contractors don't sell labor or provide labor - they BROKER labor and skim a profit from it. They also afford management services. 

But if any contractor in the USA dropped off the face of the planet tomorrow, they would not be missed, and no jobs would be lost - because all the customer base still exists and still needs the labor done.

If getting into the game required tyou to risk something, that's your issue. Nobody held a gun to your head. And quite frankly, I never knew a contractor to not take advantage of all the wonderful and glorious laws of incorporation that effectively eliminate all of the personal risk you're so fond of parading for the sake of justifying whatever it is you feel you're entitled to.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> Salting is why I did not join when I was offered a guaranteed in with the local.
> I was working for a company that was only a few years old ,at the time, had 30 men and lots of good commercial work.
> Next thing you know here comes the union salt, trying to sneak in under the radar,in the back door. They caused so much sh*t in that company that the owner gave serious thought to closing up shop. Cost the company a ton of money in legal fee's and lost production. The union used some underhanded tactics to get enough guys to sign cards expressing interest in the union.
> The labor board was brought in as a vote was called for.
> ...


Why did the company spend a ton of money on lawyers? Oh yes... becaust that's cheaper than actually treating and paying their entire workforce fairly. 

In this case, the union lost because of a corprate anti-union campaign that was waged by the company. It is done all the time and it is sucessful about 50% of the time.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Now now Oldman let's be realistic. The PRODUCT being sold is electrical work - LABOR. Contractors don't sell labor or provide labor - they BROKER labor and skim a profit from it. They also afford management services.
> 
> But if any contractor in the USA dropped off the face of the planet tomorrow, they would not be missed, and no jobs would be lost - because all the customer base still exists and still needs the labor done.
> 
> If getting into the game required tyou to risk something, that's your issue. Nobody held a gun to your head. And quite frankly, I never knew a contractor to not take advantage of all the wonderful and glorious laws of incorporation that effectively eliminate all of the personal risk you're so fond of parading for the sake of justifying whatever it is you feel you're entitled to.


refresh yourself with corporate law...everything is a personal guarantee...hell, petrocelli probably had to personally guarantee his payments....

yep, the jobs will still be there...but the contractor will be out whatever his equity was...and the guys immediately working for him will be jobless (at least temporarily)...

and nope, no one held a gun to my head...but some of the tactics described here, by some members, are basically just that..

imagine a world with no contractors in the sense of todays employer...but rather everyone an independent contractor..not collecting a weekly paycheck whether they produce or sit on their ass hiding...

remember one thing, I will never change your mind, but the young guys reading this might just think and make a better life for themselves....


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Obviously a post from someone who has never run his own shop...
> 
> You ought to look in your own back yard, the compensation plans the big boys at the union get is way more than I make. I wonder how many vacation homes Ed Hill has and why he has better insurance than you.


Ed Hill is the President of an International union, that's why he makes more than I do. I have no idea what kind of insurance plan he has, but I do know he's beyond retirement age and won't start collecting until he does.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why did the company spend a ton of money on lawyers? Oh yes... becaust that's cheaper than actually treating and paying their entire workforce fairly.
> 
> In this case, the union lost because of a corprate anti-union campaign that was waged by the company. It is done all the time and it is sucessful about 50% of the time.


he told you why....you just don't want to believe anything but your own opinion...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> This is so true and as both sides give their point of view one thing is continuously obvious, there are good and bad on both sides of this discussion. When it comes to work there also good and bad being union does not make you a better electrician and working open shop does not make you a bad person.


Nobody has even alluded to this. If an open shop electrician was considered bad why would the IBEW try to organize them? 

I was an open shop electrician once too...



> There are a number of members that were open shop prior to joining the IBEW, did the magically become abetter workers, most likely not.


In MY experience I did. I had a good head on my shoulders before, and was always thirsting for knowledge but got ZERO support from open shop contractors who basically saw everyone as a labor unit and not an investment and not a human resourse. But since joining, I was suddenly surrounded by thousands of electricians who knew their chit inside and out, and focused intently on the CRAFT and I benifitted for working with people who only ever had to worry about the work, and not the paycheck, not the hour shaving, not the new shop policy that sucked, and not trying to "wing it" because the company wasn't prepared, or equipped, or strapped for tools or cash... 



> When I worked open shop during slow times there were always a slew of applications from union men. I always wondered why were called names during good times but were OK guys when times were lean?


Despite the good pay we get, I know more than a couple of sparkys who are not good with finances. They live week to week and a layoff is financially devastating to them. People who owe money or are living right at or even beyond their means will do anything not to sink. Including working rat if necessary.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ousoonerfan3 said:


> If you formally leave the union...No.
> If you are paying dues and working on the side...Yes.
> If you are retired and drawing a pension. BIG YES.


 
Dues paying members work open shop all the time in a bad economy such as we are having now. I would never blame a man (or woman) for trying to support their family any way they can.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> the OP and the point of the thread is organizing an open shop into a union shop...that's how it got turned into a conversation between open shop and union...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just want to say that I do not believe that a comprehensive medical plan and retirement benifits for employees constitute socialism or communism. Capitalism is a good thing but it is definately not a perfect thing. What this country is going through right now is, in a nutshell the result of drastic deregulation. 

In the early days of the USA there was little regulation. There were plantations and the wealthy, and everybody else lived in squalor. Some define this as "freedom" when what they really mean is greed.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> if things go wrong, the whore goes to jail for a night and gets a fine...the madame gets 5-10...more risk..more reward...contrary to what some would have you believe...


True in the literal sense. However, my kind of whoring isn't illegal, neither is yours, madame... 

And, quite literally, should your entire house of cards collapse, you risk nothing but starting again as an electrician. If you happen to put up a bunch of personal assets you stand to lose, this was the price you paid to get in the game.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> refresh yourself with corporate law...everything is a personal guarantee...hell, petrocelli probably had to personally guarantee his payments....
> 
> *Petrocelli got a bond to guarantee performance. He's a multi millionaire and everything from his tools to his trucks are leased from another shell corporation. His only risk is losing a bid and therfore not profiting from that work. But whoever he loses the bid to gets the work and hires the labor. *
> 
> ...


*There are 3 union electricians in my neighborhood, and 4 nonunion electricians. I'll let you know when the nonunion guys look like they're living better than me. *


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> he told you why....you just don't want to believe anything but your own opinion...


He told HIS side of the story. And who is he? I dunno. I do know about corporate campaigns.


----------



## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Petey, the problem with your thinkng here is when your employees decide to organize and join a union, it is their decision. There really is no designation "union shop" other than that's what someone might refer to a shop that has union employees working for it.
> 
> It isn't a question of happy or unhappy. Your employees have rights, including the right to union representation if that is what the majority of your employees desire.
> 
> ...


If the owner of "Joe Electric" isn't happy with it he is free to close up the doors and open up the next day as "Joe Electric 2009". 

If every electrical shop was union then the trade probably wouldn't advance like it has, there would be twice as many workers as needed and take twice as long. I hate to say this, but the non union shops keep the union shop time lines in check. Probably all be limited to basic hand tools too. 

I have worked union (not electrical) before, and I felt like I was being held back. Missing opportunities that I was far more qualified for to someone just because they had more seniority then myself. Its stuff like that where I have a problem.


----------



## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Having seen and worked on both sides of this fence, I can tell you quite honestly the nonunion contractors suffer from losses due to lack of production far more than union contractors - and this is because of 2 factors: 1- many nonunion contractors suffer from poor management - not just in the head office, but in the field. 2- nonunion contractors care more about seeing their employees working than actually working productively.
> 
> One recently organized contractor was going ballistic because 2 weeks into a large pipe job no pipe had been ordered or installed. The foreman focused on laying out, drilling and installing 3-tier racks. Prior to organizing, he judged production on material orders. His (inexperienced) foremen used to throw pipe up willy nilly and rack as they went.
> 
> This job came in 900 manhours less than he bid. Part of his problem was unique in that he bought his license and never worked a day in his life with a tool. Another part was he was used to dictating to a foreman what was to be done and how, unknowingly to his own detriment. Losing that ability to micromanage from his cellphone he made more money than he expected.


After reading your post and others I have a feeling that Unions, and well trades in general work a whole heck of a lot different in the states then they do here in Canada. 

What you are talking about here in inexperience, you can not really fault that on being non union, I mean really, after all your ranting about stereo types you just can not say that. 
I am non union. The electrical part is very well planned and managed. The only people that are slowing anyone down are the Union rod busters. I mean if any more water falls from the sky then a guy can spit they go home, if the winds are up, they go home, if its colder then -15C they go home (This is Canada, thats most of the winter). And they never work with the other trades. We have lights and other drops that need to be made on the deck, and the plumbers have their cans to put down. Instead of working with us in a nice order they demand that we work around them or they go home. If we start stringing out coreline before they put their integrity bars down they stop work altogether until we remove it, but if they start second steel before bottom mat is down for us to run coreline then its fine, as long as we don't start cutting their ties other wise they stop working. 
I mean they could be nice and start at one end and work to the other end, we could work infront of them laying out, and then once we are done we could start coreline before they are done the bottom mat, then we could again stay just infront of them putting the top mat up. But nope, they put all the bars going one way down, then when they start putting the bars the other way they start doing the top mat at the same time. We have to lay out as the carpenters are putting the deck up otherwise we get run over. 
This has been going on 2 years now, one pour a week. (200+ cubic meter pours). The only time things ran smooth was a 3 week period a non union team came in when it was "too cold" for a long stretch. 
Maybe I am just sour from them, I dunno.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> If the owner of "Joe Electric" isn't happy with it he is free to close up the doors and open up the next day as "Joe Electric 2009".


No, because the law says it is not legal for Joe to do that. Now, Joe doesn't have to like that or agree to that, but it is the law, If Joe doesn't want to follow the law, then Joe is free to not engane in business and find some other way to make money.



> If every electrical shop was union then the trade probably wouldn't advance like it has, there would be twice as many workers as needed and take twice as long. I hate to say this, but the non union shops keep the union shop time lines in check. Probably all be limited to basic hand tools too.


If every electrical shop was nonunion, the pay across the country would hover somewhere around minimum wage, offer no benifits, and no pension, and only poor imbred idiots would seek employment in that situation. Sort of like what you see going on right now in "low voltage" shops and and "AST" shops, alarm companies, and companies that subcontract for cable and nonunion phone companies.

Indeed, electricians NEVER "did very well" until the IBEW came into the picture. IF a nonunion shop does pay and treat it's employees well, it is ONLY because it knows that if it doesn't, the IBEW will be sucessful in organizing it.




> I have worked union (not electrical) before, and I felt like I was being held back. Missing opportunities that I was far more qualified for to someone just because they had more seniority then myself. Its stuff like that where I have a problem.


Then your issue is with with that union and that company.

When a company closes and reopens, it is still the same company, legally, even if there's a new name. 

Now Jeff... you're in Canada, so medical insurance isn't an issue. It IS a big issue here. Imagine if an employer pays 30 bucks an hour to his employees and that is pretty typical in this business... and pays 400 bucks a month towards the employees medical coverage... and then along comes JACKLEG ELECTRIC who decides he's going to pay 25 bucks an hour and NOT provide benifits at all - just so he can bid & win jobs a little less and HE can live large without really doing anything to earn that reward other than make other people suffer for his well being?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> After reading your post and others I have a feeling that Unions, and well trades in general work a whole heck of a lot different in the states then they do here in Canada.
> 
> What you are talking about here in inexperience, you can not really fault that on being non union, I mean really, after all your ranting about stereo types you just can not say that.
> I am non union. The electrical part is very well planned and managed. The only people that are slowing anyone down are the Union rod busters. I mean if any more water falls from the sky then a guy can spit they go home, if the winds are up, they go home, if its colder then -15C they go home (This is Canada, thats most of the winter). And they never work with the other trades. We have lights and other drops that need to be made on the deck, and the plumbers have their cans to put down. Instead of working with us in a nice order they demand that we work around them or they go home. If we start stringing out coreline before they put their integrity bars down they stop work altogether until we remove it, but if they start second steel before bottom mat is down for us to run coreline then its fine, as long as we don't start cutting their ties other wise they stop working.
> ...


OK maybe it's because you 're froma frozen tundra, but I have NO IDEA what you're talking about, eyh! :whistling2:


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> If the owner of "Joe Electric" isn't happy with it he is free to close up the doors and open up the next day as "Joe Electric 2009".


 Actually he closes up and his "wife" opens up Mrs Joe Electric and he goes to work for her

Second option is file for banckrupcy and reorginization this will usually sen d the union packing.


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

Jeff000 mentioned something about union workers and hand tools.

I was working with a union shop who managed to get a job in a nearby

state. 

We were working in the jurisdiction of a very strong local.

They didn't like that even though we were still IBEW.

We were required to have 5 guys from their local on our crew.

The contractor that we worked for provided us with 110 volt and battery saws to cut conduit. But the guys from the big local refused to use them.
They were running 2" EMT using a hacksaw. One of them would just leave the job site at noon every Friday without telling anyone and expected
to get payed even though he wasn't there. He told our foreman he had been doing that for 20 years.

Our foreman kept sending these guys back to there local until he finally
got some who were willing to work. Our pipe threading machine mysteriously disappeared.


----------



## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If every electrical shop was nonunion, the pay across the country would hover somewhere around minimum wage, offer no benifits, and no pension, and only poor imbred idiots would seek employment in that situation. Sort of like what you see going on right now in "low voltage" shops and and "AST" shops, alarm companies, and companies that subcontract for cable and nonunion phone companies.
> 
> Now Jeff... you're in Canada, so medical insurance isn't an issue. It IS a big issue here. Imagine if an employer pays 30 bucks an hour to his employees and that is pretty typical in this business... and pays 400 bucks a month towards the employees medical coverage... and then along comes JACKLEG ELECTRIC who decides he's going to pay 25 bucks an hour and NOT provide benifits at all - just so he can bid & win jobs a little less and HE can live large without really doing anything to earn that reward other than make other people suffer for his well being?


I think we can agree that Union and Non Union are required for the benefit of each other. On their own Neither would be worth working for. 

You guys make 30/hr plus medical? 
****, JM average here is 34 an hour, (union is 33.50 if i recall, unless they raised the rate), where I work they keep a buck ahead of the union, its 34.50. And I get benefits, dental, optical, prescriptions, and 12 massages a year, or 24 chiropractor visits. About the same as the Union, most non union trades use Merit around here (http://www.meritalberta.com) they pay for school and stuff too. 

But what I was getting to, lol. between the cost of living differences and the dollar I would probably need to make 40-45/hr plus my benefits to be making the same as you (all things being equal). 
I would still like to bail to the states once I get my ticket, if the job market allows. 



rewire said:


> Actually he closes up and his "wife" opens up Mrs Joe Electric and he goes to work for her


Yes that is what I meant, there are other ways around it too. But same idea.


----------



## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Yeah yeah contractors don’t do anything but make money on the sweat of labors backs, we take no risks whatsoever, we all are making money hand over fist, the system is completely rigged because we are secretly connected to wall street, drive Escalades, have vacation houses all over the world and if it were not for the unions to keep us in line we would all retire at 29…bla bla bla 

It’s truly sad that there are people who are actually dumb enough to believe that crap, but if it were true they would have to be complete morons for not becoming contractors themselves... 

Original Poster, 

Take a hard look at your work situation and ask yourself what you will gain and lose by organizing. The union does offer some good things, but it does have it’s draw backs. Maybe your boss is an egotistical jerk taking you for a ride, or maybe it’s a mom and pop shop just trying to get by, either way once you organize any relationship you may have had with the contractor is OVER, whether it be a good one, or a bad one. 

IMHO organizing and increasing overhead for a contractor in a recession may not work like you think it should. I can tell you right now as a union contractor that my work opportunities which in good times were limited to commercial/industrial/government work are in this recession narrowed down industrial/government work and I still have to compete with non-union shops. My workforce of 120 men is down to 50 and if some work does'nt break loose soon I will be down to my foremen and key players by June. 

If you do a lot of commercial and residential work, what you decide will have an effect on the business you work for.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

luby104 said:


> Jeff000 mentioned something about union workers and hand tools.
> 
> I was working with a union shop who managed to get a job in a nearby
> 
> ...


They're called locals for a reason. Every local has a jurisdiction, one does not cross their jurisdictional boundaries taking jobs from the locals while simultaniously trumpeting "brotherhood" and "family."

Otherwise, 1500 hicks from Alabama would storm NYC and work for 3 months to make their regular annual salary. 



> The contractor that we worked for provided us with 110 volt and battery saws to cut conduit. But the guys from the big local refused to use them.
> They were running 2" EMT using a hacksaw. One of them would just leave the job site at noon every Friday without telling anyone and expected
> to get payed even though he wasn't there. He told our foreman he had been doing that for 20 years.
> 
> ...


And then, one night at band camp...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> I think we can agree that Union and Non Union are required for the benefit of each other. On their own Neither would be worth working for.
> 
> You guys make 30/hr plus medical?
> ****, JM average here is 34 an hour, (union is 33.50 if i recall, unless they raised the rate), where I work they keep a buck ahead of the union, its 34.50. And I get benefits, dental, optical, prescriptions, and 12 massages a year, or 24 chiropractor visits. About the same as the Union, most non union trades use Merit around here (http://www.meritalberta.com) they pay for school and stuff too.


I was just using round numbers to keep the issue as simple as possible.
The wages for JW here vary according to what local.


----------



## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

You all agree?

Locals are not supposed to work out of their jurisdiction?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Yeah yeah contractors don’t do anything but make money on the sweat of labors backs, we take no risks whatsoever, we all are making money hand over fist, the system is completely rigged because we are secretly connected to wall street, drive Escalades, have vacation houses all over the world and if it were not for the unions to keep us in line we would all retire at 29…bla bla bla


*Well.. at LEAST one of you finally admits it!*



> It’s truly sad that there are people who are actually dumb enough to believe that crap, but if it were true they would have to be complete morons for not becoming contractors themselves...
> 
> Original Poster,
> 
> Take a hard look at your work situation and ask yourself what you will gain and lose by organizing. The union does offer some good things, but it does have it’s draw backs. Maybe your boss is an egotistical jerk taking you for a ride, or maybe it’s a mom and pop shop just trying to get by, either way once you organize any relationship you may have had with the contractor is OVER, whether it be a good one, or a bad one.


*Only in your mind. Many union contractors were once union members and have no issue, no problem, and no resentment that their employees demand a decent living. *



> IMHO organizing and increasing overhead for a contractor in a recession may not work like you think it should. I can tell you right now as a union contractor that my work opportunities which in good times were limited to commercial/industrial/government work are in this recession narrowed down industrial/government work and I still have to compete with non-union shops. My workforce of 120 men is down to 50 and if some work does'nt break loose soon I will be down to my foremen and key players by June.


Yea yea yea cry me a river. And then explain how lowering your price and decreasing wages is going to cause work to magically appear out of thin air. You're small time - a little ant on a little planet. You want to better YOUR lot by lowering the standard so that YOU can continue, in a recession, to profit as if nothing was wrong... while you feast off the backs of labor who should, in your mind, suffer the hit. Meanwhile, whatever gains you realize by knocking down conditions are someone elses losses, which you obviously couldn't care less about.

Sure sure... you're another KoolAid drinking Walmart shopper for damn sure.



> If you do a lot of commercial and residential work, what you decide will have an effect on the business you work for.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sure sure... you're another KoolAid drinking Walmart shopper for damn sure.


Sounds to me like you've had a bit of IBEW flavored Kool Aid over the years yourself. 

Are you on the IBEW payroll for salting forums by any chance? :blink: :laughing:


----------

