# Under cabinet lights with NM



## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

im going to be installing undercabinet light at my parents place once they redo the kitchen. I have very little experience with residential, let alone using NM. The under cabinet lights i've done we used BX so the 3"-4" of exposed BX wasnt an issue.

what do you guys do when running romex to an undercabinet light? is it kosher to do this? what is the proper way to do this? sleeve it with flex into the wall?

it is a 120v light


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Here in Ontario that would be fine. Can be a lot longer and still be fine. The 
wires in your walls are more likely to be damaged (long nails, screws etc) 
than a wire tucked up tight under the cabinet.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I would never leave exposed romex, if it had to be like that I'd look into a piece or wiremold or similar cover. I have always mounted the lights tighter to the back of the cabinet.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have run exposed NMD but line voltage UC fixtures aren't very common anymore. Driver in an inconspicuous place and thermostat wire to the fixtures.

I just use cable ties and sticky backs.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

If you can't flush mount it to the back of the wall you will need to sleeve it with flex. This will of course need to be done with a from to (romex to flex ) inside the drywall. If you can't make it fit I would tape the romex up as it enters the flex. 
Don't buy home depot fixtures. Typically they don't have a knock out in the back, are cord supplied (meaning can't put a 7/8 hole in the back ) and are not user friendly. Buy something at the supply house and make sure you have a 7/8 hole saw our unibit to offset where your whips are. 

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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Mech Diver said:


> I would never leave exposed romex, if it had to be like that I'd look into a piece or wiremold or similar cover. I have always mounted the lights tighter to the back of the cabinet.


tight to the back of the cabinet makes for very poor lighting, imh.


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## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

papaotis said:


> tight to the back of the cabinet makes for very poor lighting, imh.


I agree, I always install all the way to the front also.

Does anyone understand 334.15 (A) its a little confusing especially after you continue to read 334.15 B and (C). (A) shouldn't even be in there. So is NM allowed to be run on a building finish like it states? Not that I ever would


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

zac said:


> If you can't flush mount it to the back of the wall you will need to sleeve it with flex. This will of course need to be done with a from to (romex to flex ) inside the drywall. If you can't make it fit I would tape the romex up as it enters the flex.
> Don't buy home depot fixtures. Typically they don't have a knock out in the back, are cord supplied (meaning can't put a 7/8 hole in the back ) and are not user friendly. Buy something at the supply house and make sure you have a 7/8 hole saw our unibit to offset where your whips are.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Why would you have to sleeve it? How would that ever get damaged?


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

backstay said:


> Why would you have to sleeve it?


So it's not subject to physical damage. Out here they would shoot that down (exposed romex ). 


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

in my opinion, it states'cable shall protected as necessary'! does it need to be protected on the bottom of a cabinet in residential?:no:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

papaotis said:


> in my opinion, it states'cable shall protected as necessary'! does it need to be protected on the bottom of a cabinet in residential?:no:


I agree. You would really have to try to damage a romex wire under a cabinet and above a counter top. Basically you have to lie on your back on the counter and stab the wire witha sharp object...
But it won't pass inspection and home inspectors love to cite it out.

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

papaotis said:


> in my opinion, it states'cable shall protected as necessary'! does it need to be protected on the bottom of a cabinet in residential?:no:


It's surfaced mounted and not going to be damaged unless the fixture is destroyed first. Running NM inside BX is hack.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

backstay said:


> It's surfaced mounted and not going to be damaged unless the fixture is destroyed first. Running NM inside BX is hack.


Technically it's 1/2 aluminium flex. And it's code. 

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

zac said:


> Technically it's 1/2 aluminium flex. And it's code.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


How is it danger of being damaged? You can surface mount NM if it isn't exposed to damage. I have a couple of very strict inspectors and they haven't flagged any yet.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

backstay said:


> How is it danger of being damaged? You can surface mount NM if it isn't exposed to damage. I have a couple of very strict inspectors and they haven't flagged any yet.


I would have to look at my files tomorrow. But technically it's subject to damage. Just like romex exposed below 7' in garages (surface mounted ).

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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Half the work you do is based on the sun shining. Go to bed! 

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

zac said:


> Half the work you do is based on the sun shining. Go to bed!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


MRI tomorrow, no work.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

backstay said:


> MRI tomorrow, no work.


Well I pray that all goes well. 
And if I do that I will need to know why (in regards to your privacy ).

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

zac said:


> Well I pray that all goes well.
> And if I do that I will need to know why (in regards to your privacy ).
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Knee replacement coming up in June. Insurance wants another look. Just wasting money at this point. The Tibia and Femur have started to grind pockets into each other. Surgeon said my knee will feel better when I wake up. Even with the pain of the surgery.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

backstay said:


> Knee replacement coming up in June. Insurance wants another look. Just wasting money at this point. The Tibia and Femur have started to grind pockets into each other. Surgeon said my knee will feel better when I wake up. Even with the pain of the surgery.


You can't inject a little ideal yellow 77 in there? Thanks for the info. 

It's out of your hands, but doing your do diligence should ease your conscience.

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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

zac said:


> You can't inject a little ideal yellow 77 in there? Thanks for the info.
> 
> It's out of your hands, but doing your do diligence should ease your conscience.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


They tried that three times already. It's a mess in there now. There's bone spurs and chunks of cartilage, bone and meniscus floating around. Thing is, the other one is right behind it.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Romex wire to under cabinet lights would be the norm around here. It has never been a problem with inspectors or installers.

An island outlet I would use BX. I would use EMT if you can get the drop into the basement before the cabinet guy puts the tops on.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> Knee replacement coming up in June. Insurance wants another look. Just wasting money at this point. The Tibia and Femur have started to grind pockets into each other. Surgeon said my knee will feel better when I wake up. Even with the pain of the surgery.


Knee replacements (so I've heard) take a bit longer to recover from than hip replacement surgery. Based on my experience with hip replacement surgeries last year, I bet you will feel so much better you will wonder why you didn't do this sooner (at least that's the experience I hope you have).

How long does the surgeon want you to stay out of work? Are you OK with that?

Best of luck to you Backstay! 

When's the surgery?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Knee replacements (so I've heard) take a bit longer to recover from than hip replacement surgery. Based on my experience with hip replacement surgeries last year, I bet you will feel so much better you will wonder why you didn't do this sooner (at least that's the experience I hope you have).
> 
> How long does the surgeon want you to stay out of work? Are you OK with that?
> 
> ...


After two weeks I'm cleared to drive. He said I can do whatever I feel like after that. So I'll say a month before any real work. Ladders, I'll take as I feel up to it. I'm going in the first week of June. Summer vacation! Lucky me. This is my questions. 
1. Spinal or General anesthesia?
2. Nm or armor on the lights?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> After two weeks I'm cleared to drive. He said I can do whatever I feel like after that. So I'll say a month before any real work. Ladders, I'll take as I feel up to it. I'm going in the first week of June. Summer vacation! Lucky me. This is my questions.
> 1. Spinal or General anesthesia?
> 2. Nm or armor on the lights?


1. IDK, but for my hips they told me they were putting me out with drugs and doing something other than General aneshesia (the GA was a backup if I woke up before they wanted me to). My 1st surgery I stayed in the hospital room for 5 hours after I left recovery before I went home, the 2nd one I went home 3 hours after I left recovery. Walking w/out a cane after a week. No work for 2 months because of the risk of driving the metal stake they installed in my femur down into the femur and splitting it open (like a log).

2. It seems NM is fine, but I haven't done resi since the '70s.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Fwiw hospitals have the best dope & like a happy customer Backstay....best of luck ....:thumbsup:~CS~:thumbsup:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Just push the UC all the way back like others have said. 
A better UC is Kichler LED Tape. Run it along the perimeter left, front and right, not the rear of the cabinet.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> tight to the back of the cabinet makes for very poor lighting, imh.



I've installed thousands of lights that way with great results.




backstay said:


> Why would you have to sleeve it? How would that ever get damaged?


Reasonable people know that it never will get damaged. In 30 years I had ONE miserable little inspector make an issue out of literally one inch, one inch, of romex between the wall and the fixture..


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Inspectors must know me too well around here.. either way I do things they never look at my work anymore unless new. They show up BS for a few then ask wheres the sheet. Id be fine exposed or not. If want to cover just pull MC.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The fact is NM can be exposed and it would be a BS call to say that the wire is exposed to damage. Do they think the owners are going to hang their meat from the wire...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The fact is NM can be exposed and it would be a BS call to say that the wire is exposed to damage. Do they think the owners are going to hang their meat from the wire...


Exactly.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

zac said:


> I agree. You would really have to try to damage a romex wire under a cabinet and above a counter top. Basically you have to lie on your back on the counter and stab the wire witha sharp object...
> But it won't pass inspection and home inspectors love to cite it out.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk



It's a kitchen would say steam from a coffee maker on the counter below damage the nm jacket over time ? Or a build up of grease from an electric frying pan ? Too many variables.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

There are environmental things that could damage the nm, HOs do crazy chit.

I as most guys put the lights to the back of the cabinet with no complaints.

At this time more use LEDs or some other type lighting. 

If this nm exposed is fine do you also run nm to an undersink outlet for a garbage disposal and instant on faucet or water heater an figure that won't get damaged inside a cabinet ?


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## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

A crazy wife may take a knife to it...you know, when wives go wild!

I've always pulled the light to the front with exposed romex. Know plenty others who do the same. I haven't used line voltage lights in a long time. Been using LED ribbon light with a lensed channel to get rid of the dots from the LEDs http://www.environmentallights.com/led-strip-lights.html
I'm sure most of you have seen the channels for the LED ribbon, if not check it out. http://www.environmentallights.com/led-channel.html


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Mech Diver said:


> There are environmental things that could damage the nm, HOs do crazy chit.
> 
> I as most guys put the lights to the back of the cabinet with no complaints.
> 
> ...


I dunno. I don't have your concerns. I have ripped out old line voltage UC fixtures with exposed NM and there were no issues.

Certainly, there is no problem protecting the NM. I just need to be aware of my time spent on the job. 

Inside a cabinet is a different story. AC90 or flex.

I sure wouldn't use line voltage fixtures these days. Low voltage wire is easy to work with and easy to hide.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Mech Diver said:


> There are environmental things that could damage the nm, HOs do crazy chit.
> 
> I as most guys put the lights to the back of the cabinet with no complaints.
> 
> ...


No comparison with under cabinet and inside cabinet.


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## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

While we're at it maybe piping in our household lamp cords would be a good idea...those are way more hazardous then the couple inches of exposed romex on the underside of a cabinet.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I use to run the romex to them as well never an issue. I see Mech-D point about steam raises a point. I have been using low voltage lights/LED etc for 3/4 years now. I would highly recommend them to HO , open soffits snake that cord up between cabinets zoom bang gone ! Good luck Backstay my buddy loves his new knee!! Was out 3 months he was 55? And said he should of went sooner (goalie) lol


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

thank you guys for the response. 

just some background info

the house is in NH and it wont be getting inspected. but i would still like to do the job the right way. we are trying to get in touch with a local electrician who was recommended and see if he is willing to work side-by-side with me, for two reasons; i dont know residential at all, and timing may be an issue since i work in NYC.

the lights we are using are WAC LEDme Lightbars. 

we plan on mounting it closer to the front of the cabinets, so flush mounting it towards the back is out of the question.

I am almost tempted to run BX to the lights so i wont have to worry about exposed NM. does that sound like an awful idea?

again, i have no residential experience so please excuse my lack of knowledge


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

chknkatsu said:


> thank you guys for the response.
> 
> just some background info
> 
> ...


Think how trying to clean that BX is going to be. If I install LED tape lights, I run them all the way forward. If it's fixtures, they sit two inches off the back wall. Otherwise you can see them.


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

backstay said:


> Think how trying to clean that BX is going to be. If I install LED tape lights, I run them all the way forward. If it's fixtures, they sit two inches off the back wall. Otherwise you can see them.



i guess you're right about them being visible from the front if i bring it forward. as far as cleaning i dont think it's really an issue, not for me at least:whistling2:.

the lights i am installing are 1" thick, so if it's close to the front, unless you're really short i dont think it will be an issue. either way, the finished location will be determined once the cabinets are up. at the moment i just want to know whether exposed NM is okay as much as i hate it. 

ALSO, what kind of screws do you guys prefer for mounting to cabinets?


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Pan head 1/2"


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

chknkatsu said:


> i guess you're right about them being visible from the front if i bring it forward. as far as cleaning i dont think it's really an issue, not for me at least:whistling2:.
> 
> the lights i am installing are 1" thick, so if it's close to the front, unless you're really short i dont think it will be an issue. either way, the finished location will be determined once the cabinets are up. at the moment i just want to know whether exposed NM is okay as much as i hate it.
> 
> ALSO, what kind of screws do you guys prefer for mounting to cabinets?


Most fixtures I install have mounting screws attached. Most women are short. Just ask the customer, you can hold one up and let her choose.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

chknkatsu said:


> i guess you're right about them being visible from the front if i bring it forward. as far as cleaning i dont think it's really an issue, not for me at least:whistling2:.
> 
> the lights i am installing are 1" thick, so if it's close to the front, unless you're really short i dont think it will be an issue. either way, the finished location will be determined once the cabinets are up. at the moment i just want to know whether exposed NM is okay as much as i hate it.
> 
> ALSO, what kind of screws do you guys prefer for mounting to cabinets?


I know a guy who was in a rush to get a job done and used double sided tape. What a hack artist :whistling2: .


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

A cabinet guy played one of the best pranks on me. He cut the tips of some #6 drywall screws off. He put small piles of wood dust where the mounting screws would be, if the screws were to long, and went through the cabinet. Then he stood the screw tips up in the dust. 

He opens up the cabinet when I am working in the kitchen and starts screaming and carrying on. When I looked in the cabinet I almost died. Then he wiped his hand across the screws, knocks them down, and starts laughing. 

Just curious, in NYC do you have to use the steel MC and BX, of can it be aluminum?


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

cabletie said:


> A cabinet guy played one of the best pranks on me. He cut the tips of some #6 drywall screws off. He put small piles of wood dust where the mounting screws would be, if the screws were to long, and went through the cabinet. Then he stood the screw tips up in the dust.
> 
> He opens up the cabinet when I am working in the kitchen and starts screaming and carrying on. When I looked in the cabinet I almost died. Then he wiped his hand across the screws, knocks them down, and starts laughing.
> 
> Just curious, in NYC do you have to use the steel MC and BX, of can it be aluminum?


i think pretty much everyone uses aluminum. regular BX is now longer allowed, need to have a bare ground. 

to be honest i've been doing control work for the past 2-3 years so ive probably missed some details


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> No comparison with under cabinet and inside cabinet.



I agree with you and have only used mc or conduit myself but of all the kitchen demos I have been on there wasn't one that had more than nm inside cabinets, other than the ones that had run extension cords cabinet to cabinet or worse.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

ALSO, what kind of screws do you guys prefer for mounting to cabinets?

Steel stud framing screws


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

backstay said:


> Most fixtures I install have mounting screws attached. Most women are short. Just ask the customer, you can hold one up and let her choose.


i guess the customer would be my mom since she is the shortest :laughing:. 

on another note, i despise NM


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Some sort of sleeve in a cabinet makes sense. Undercabinet, not going to worry about having small amounts of it exposed. Whether front or back is better is a good question. I use line voltage LED. I hate anything with seperate transformers or drivers.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chknkatsu said:


> i think pretty much everyone uses aluminum. regular BX is now longer allowed, need to have a bare ground.
> 
> to be honest i've been doing control work for the past 2-3 years so ive probably missed some details


I can buy steel MC for the same price as aluminum MC depending on the supply house. I prefer it when I am using 250' coils. 1000' reels, and it's going to be aluminum sheath MC all the way.


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## chknkatsu (Aug 3, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> I can buy steel MC for the same price as aluminum MC depending on the supply house. I prefer it when I am using 250' coils. 1000' reels, and it's going to be aluminum sheath MC all the way.


hey Going_Commando, where in NH are you from?


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I have sometimes installed a receptacle inside the cabinet near the point where the string of lights begins, and run the fixture line cord directly up into the cabinet to the receptacle; dress the cord up inside the cabinet with stickybacks and ty-wraps. more work though.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I don't get the phobia with exposed romex. It makes absolutely no sense to me, especially if you live in an area with basements. Guess what is in basements? Exposed romex. Literally countless millions of miles of exposed romex in basements all across the country. But a few inches of exposed romex under a cabinet is an issue?  I can't wrap my head around that lack of logic.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

MTW said:


> I don't get the phobia with exposed romex. It makes absolutely no sense to me, especially if you live in an area with basements. Guess what is in basements? Exposed romex. Literally countless millions of miles of exposed romex in basements all across the country. But a few inches of exposed romex under a cabinet is an issue?  I can't wrap my head around that lack of logic.


I agree. In san diego we no have no basements (not many ) so exposed romex is a gold mine for inspectors! 

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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

zac said:


> I agree. In san diego we no have no basements (not many ) so exposed romex is a gold mine for inspectors!


Funny you mention that. Reminds me of a house I stayed in once, late 80's, early 90's tract condo development in Carlsbad, CA. All the homeruns came out of the wall in the front of the garage, were strung across the garage ceiling "clothesline style" then back into the outside wall to the panel outside. I guess the inspector missed that one. :laughing:


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> I don't get the phobia with exposed romex.


Exposed cabling under the cabinets can often be seen easily by someone seated in the room (kitchenettes, etc). Personally, I think exposed cabling visible like that is relatively unattractive -- or at least a customer might think so.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> I don't get the phobia with exposed romex. It makes absolutely no sense to me, especially if you live in an area with basements. Guess what is in basements? Exposed romex. Literally countless millions of miles of exposed romex in basements all across the country. But a few inches of exposed romex under a cabinet is an issue?  I can't wrap my head around that lack of logic.


IMHO, more a hazard exists with folks stuffing combustibles up against high heat puc or halogens.......~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

mikewillnot said:


> I have sometimes installed a receptacle inside the cabinet near the point where the string of lights begins, and run the fixture line cord directly up into the cabinet to the receptacle; dress the cord up inside the cabinet with stickybacks and ty-wraps. more work though.


This I don't get. Having a cord in the cabinet just gets in the way of whatever you are storing in the cabinet and IMO subjects the cord to more physical damage than you would ever have to a short piece of romex under the cabinet going from the fixture into the sheetrock.


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