# Whats wrong with this situation?



## sparkthrowa212 (Jan 5, 2009)

HO has a very unique electrical problem, it seems that his wife was using a blow dryer in the master bath room. When she turned the dryer off . The light above the vanity went out .As a result of that, half of the receptacle circuits on the second floor are de-energized, along with GFIC'S in the bathrooms . In addition to these problems a lighting circuit that consist of two threeway switches and the fixtures. Is some how being operated by a battery powered switch That is installed in the master bedroom closet. This switch is used to turn on a light, that was originally a pull chain fixture. There is no wiring between the three ways and the remote battery switch. There is no wiring between the fixture in the closet and the light in the hallway. After troubleshooting and ringing out wires between areas. I went to the panel and de-termed the circuits, only to discover the circuit in question was some how still energized, even though it was not terminated on the breaker. :whistling2::blink:WTH. I will gladly entertain any suggestion and or possible solutions. Thank you


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sparkthrowa212 said:


> HO has a very unique electrical problem, it seems that his wife was using a blow dryer in the master bath room. When she turned the dryer off . The light above the vanity went out .As a result of that, half of the receptacle circuits on the second floor are de-energized, along with GFIC'S in the bathrooms . In addition to these problems a lighting circuit that consist of two threeway switches and the fixtures. Is some how being operated by a battery powered switch That is installed in the master bedroom closet. This switch is used to turn on a light, that was originally a pull chain fixture. There is no wiring between the three ways and the remote battery switch. There is no wiring between the fixture in the closet and the light in the hallway. After troubleshooting and ringing out wires between areas. I went to the panel and de-termed the circuits, only to discover the circuit in question was some how still energized, even though it was not terminated on the breaker. :whistling2::blink:WTH. I will gladly entertain any suggestion and or possible solutions. Thank you


 

In my opinion, it sounds double fed. It's not uncommon to see 2 circuits in a house that got tied together mistaking during rough in. Then, on trim out, if the electrician lands both of those circuits on the same phase, the problem never gets caught, and you now have a circuit that is doublefed. Find that first and seperate it.


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## wirenut71 (Dec 5, 2010)

I agree. If if is an older house it has probably been hacked to death and that could be another reason that the circuit has been double feed.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

MWBC?:whistling2:


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## iJuke (Jan 27, 2011)

Yes on the 2 circuits getting tied together... Second the pwr may go from the gfci to supply the rest of the lighting circuit & second floor... I would check the gfci and what else it feeds also I would look at the switch in the bath to see if it's spliced wrong and or the 3ways are spliced correctly... Bad gfci? 
The closet Lt either has a screw-in remote sensor base for the battery operated switch or the lampholder has it built in... Either way pwr is in the Lampholder Lt box...


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> MWBC?:whistling2:


Seen that also on a few MWBC especially when doing a panel change out.


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## sparkthrowa212 (Jan 5, 2009)

In as far as the way the house was roughed in. There are three GFCI, one in each bathroom. And the way the nm cable is routed, is as follows. In the first floor half bath room, the GFCI has two nm cables wired to the line side of GFCI. One cable provides a feed to second floor master bedroom bath GFCI. In that outlet box there are a total of two nm cables, both of which are wired to the line side of the GFCI. 

Of the two nm cables in the master bath room GFCI, one of them feeds the GFCI in the third (common) bathroom. In this outlet box there are two nm cables, one of which feeds two single pole switches, in a two gang box. These switches control the lights in the bathroom. In the two gang box there are four nm cables, one cable comes from the GFCI to feed the switches, two of the remaning three cables are returns for the lights in the bathroom. The fourth cable goes to a three way switch. Located in the hallway, this cable uses the neutral wire only. The black wire is NOT connected to anything. This neutral is used for the light in the hallway, which is part of a three way lighting circuit. The other three way switch is located on the first floor. There is a light at the bottom of the steps, which I beleive is controlled by the three way switches.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Hmmmm... Carter system three way? Surely not At any rate, the receptacles and the lights have formed a series circuit somehow. Disconnect the cable leaving the last GFI that feeds the lights. Ohm the circuit to make sure it is complete and functional. Leave the light feed disconnected and start opening up boxes to find where the problem is.


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## sparkthrowa212 (Jan 5, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Hmmmm... Carter system three way? Surely not At any rate, the receptacles and the lights have formed a series circuit somehow. Disconnect the cable leaving the last GFI that feeds the lights. Ohm the circuit to make sure it is complete and functional. Leave the light feed disconnected and start opening up boxes to find where the problem is.


 The only boxes that are known. Are the one in which the devices are in. And in regards to continuity. Thats how I traced and indentified each cable, from one device to the next device. At the panel the circuit(s) in question were teminated on a 15 A mini tandem breaker , where there are three circuits. Two of the circuits are pigtailed together with an individual wire termed at one side of the tandem breaker. The thrid circuit is termed on the other side of the tandem breaker.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

How about the light boxes? Did you open them up? Check continuity between both ends of the three way and find out how that is laid out and you will find the problem. If you don't I would suspect a box buried in a wall somewhere.


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## sparkthrowa212 (Jan 5, 2009)

:whistling2:


InPhase277 said:


> How about the light boxes? Did you open them up? Check continuity between both ends of the three way and find out how that is laid out and you will find the problem. If you don't I would suspect a box buried in a wall somewhere.


 Yes, all the ceiling outlet boxes were opened , each had only one cable in them. I checked for continuity through the travellers.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Ok, let's run this down again. If you have continuity between the panel and receptacles, they should work. Power leaves the last GFI and hits a switch box. This box powers the bathroom lights, then sends a neutral only to a three way. What happens to the neutral in that three way box?

Draw up a diagram so we can visualize this better.


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## sparkthrowa212 (Jan 5, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Ok, let's run this down again. If you have continuity between the panel and receptacles, they should work. Power leaves the last GFI and hits a switch box. This box powers the bathroom lights, then sends a neutral only to a three way. What happens to the neutral in that three way box?
> 
> Draw up a diagram so we can visualize this better.


The neutral in the three way switch box is spliced to the neutral wire coming from the light . One other thing, in the 2gang switch box in the miffle bathroom. I had voltage reading of 120 volts between the neutral and ground:whistling2:. And no voltage between neutral and the feed:whistling2:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

sparkthrowa212 said:


> The neutral in the three way switch box is spliced to the neutral wire coming from the light . One other thing, in the 2gang switch box in the miffle bathroom. I had voltage reading of 120 volts between the neutral and ground:whistling2:. And no voltage between neutral and the feed:whistling2:


 I would think, that you have what you think is a neutral, but is a hot. 

Better re-check your connections on the 3 ways.


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## madmaxx (Nov 12, 2010)

*Question*

Your passing your power into line side of each gfci? Is that from a pig tail or straight in and out of each line side gfci? When saying each bathroom has a gfci is that an actual gfci or do you mean protected ?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

wirenut71 said:


> I agree. If if is an older house it has probably been hacked to death and that could be another reason that the circuit has been double feed.



Buried box- back fed and now an open neutral out there.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

That circuit could be fed from one side of the double pole breakers at the panel. I have run across this a few times................... 
as far as the problem, loose connections usually break contact at higher amps like using a hair blower or vacuum etc............................


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

sparkthrowa212 said:


> ho has a very unique electrical problem, it seems that his wife was using a blow dryer in the master bath room. When she turned the dryer off . The light above the vanity went out .as a result of that, half of the receptacle circuits on the second floor are de-energized, along with gfic's in the bathrooms . In addition to these problems a lighting circuit that consist of two threeway switches and the fixtures. Is some how being operated by a battery powered switch that is installed in the master bedroom closet. This switch is used to turn on a light, that was originally a pull chain fixture. There is no wiring between the three ways and the remote battery switch. There is no wiring between the fixture in the closet and the light in the hallway. After troubleshooting and ringing out wires between areas. I went to the panel and de-termed the circuits, only to discover the circuit in question was some how still energized, even though it was not terminated on the breaker. :whistling2::blink:wth. I will gladly entertain any suggestion and or possible solutions. Thank you



sounds like some moron romex jerker ****ed up


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electrolover said:


> sounds like some moron romex jerker ****ed up


 

Thank you for your contribution:blink:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Did you check any devices for backwiring, it could have just been coincidental timing that the lights went out simultainiously to the blow dryer being turned off. Sometimes a heavy load will keep a weak connection flowing.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Sometimes a heavy load will keep a weak connection flowing.


 
I agree 100%. I worked at a large production facility and VERY often(seen it hundreds of times) a machine would be working perfectly fine at quitting time, but would not startup the following morning. I came to the conclusion vibration in production equipment loosens connections but while current is flowing on the circuit, it will retain connection. Once the machine is turned off, the bad connection is released and the problem becomes evident.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

mrmike said:


> That circuit could be fed from one side of the double pole breakers at the panel. I have run across this a few times...................
> as far as the problem, loose connections usually break contact at higher amps like using a hair blower or vacuum etc............................


Quoting myself here to clarify my last sentence per other replies. I am implying that it happens when there is a Higher load appliance being used. It usually happens when the load is shut off or just turned on, & the loose or weak connection breaking contact at that point, usually from the arcing...................... otherwise, it is understandable that the load (amps) will keep the connection together while running...................


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## racerjim0 (Aug 10, 2008)

sparkthrowa212 said:


> The neutral in the three way switch box is spliced to the neutral wire coming from the light . One other thing, in the 2gang switch box in the miffle bathroom. I had voltage reading of 120 volts between the neutral and ground:whistling2:. And no voltage between neutral and the feed:whistling2:


The coffee hasn't kicked in yet but this is where I would concentrate. Are you sure the whited wire is a neutral and not part of a switch leg/travelers


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## iJuke (Jan 27, 2011)

racerjim0 said:


> The coffee hasn't kicked in yet but this is where I would concentrate. Are you sure the whited wire is a neutral and not part of a switch leg/travelers


Thinking along those lines... Maybe it's a switch loop pwr up on the black(to the light) & down on the white(from the light) to the switch, not a neutral.


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## Sparky_Stew (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds to me like what you have is a lost neutral. figure out where the last working device is in line and check that and your first one that is out, usually thats where your problem is going to lie. I see it alot in speed wired plugs where the wires just work themselves loose over time from all of the expanding and contracting they do


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