# Standard height of boxes above countertops



## subelect

The short version of my question: Is there a standard height at, which you install boxes above the countertops in the kitchen during rough-in?

Long version:
Last month, we roughed in the kitchen & office at a commercial restaurant. Checked the cupboard plan with the owner, and installed the boxes so that the top of the box was 8 inches above the top of the cupboards. He agrees, good to go.

And, last week, after the drywall is installed & painted, the countertop guy informs me that the owner specified extra tall back splashes. My boxes need to be installed so the top of the box is at 48", 4" higher than my original height.

I talked to the owner & moved my boxes. The drywall workers fixed the holes in the drywall.
This leads to my question: above a countertop, is there a standard height at that you install boxes? And, is this height governed by the Americans Disability Act?

Finally, where can I learn the ADA height requirements for general outlets & light switches?

Thanks,
Rick


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## owl

Refer to the code. Switches should be 48 inches to center.


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## AlbertaBeef

I always put them 48" from the floor, which is one foot above the cabinet. I have gotten pinched by putting them lower once. That will never happen again.

As far as handicapped ruling goes, I can only speak for the CEC requirements. The ruling for counter receptacles is that they can be 14/3 or 12/2, and max 2 per circuit. However, if required for handicapped access, receptacles can be placed on the front face of the counter, and can be in addition to the 2 receptacles on the circuit. I don't really see what difference it would make to put the receptacles 4 inches lower on the backsplash, as it is difficult to reach across the counter from a wheelchair.


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## Galiani

receptacle outlets shall be not more than 20" above countertops. 210.52(C)(5)


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## 480sparky

owl said:


> Refer to the code. Switches should be 48 inches to center.


And what code would that be?


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## big2bird

subelect said:


> The short version of my question: Is there a standard height that you install boxes above the countertops in the kitchen during rough in?
> 
> Long version:
> Last month, we roughed in the kitchen & office at a commercial restaurant. Checked the cupboard plan with the owner, installed the boxes so that the top of the box was 8 inches above the top of the cupboards. He agrees, good to go.
> And, last week, after the drywall is installed & painted, the counter-top guy informs me that the owner specified extra tall back-splashes. My boxes need to be installed so the top of the box is at 48", 4" higher than my original height.
> I talked to the owner & moved my boxes. The drywall workers fixed the holes in the drywall.
> Which leads to my question: above a counter-top, is there a standard height that you install boxes?
> And, is this height governed by the Americans Disability Act?
> Finally, where can I learn what the ADA height requirements for general outlets & light switches?
> Thanks,
> Rick


ADA and CDA, minimum is 15" AFF, switches 48" to center.
Counters are normally 36" + 6" backsplash. Add the trim, and 44" is cutting it close. I just set them at 48" to center unless the arch elevations show otherwise.


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## Teaspoon

AlbertaBeef said:


> I always put them 48" from the floor, which is one foot above the cabinet. I have gotten pinched by putting them lower once. That will never happen again.
> 
> As far as handicapped ruling goes, I can only speak for the CEC requirements. The ruling for counter receptacles is that they can be 14/3 or 12/2, and max 2 per circuit. However, if required for handicapped access, receptacles can be placed on the front face of the counter, and can be in addition to the 2 receptacles on the circuit. I don't really see what difference it would make to put the receptacles 4 inches lower on the backsplash, as it is difficult to reach across the counter from a wheelchair.


I always set my Counter top Rec. 48" to top of box. As well as switches.


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## backstay

Teaspoon said:



> I always set my Counter top Rec. 48" to top of box. As well as switches.


Same for me.


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## Salvatoreg02

I like to install sideways and install just below the top cabinet so you don't see them or plugmold works well.


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## 3D Electric

48" to the top of the box. It will keep you out of the countertop and out of the cabinets


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## 99cents

The short answer to your question is no.

Don't you just love those receptacles that are half in the tile and half out? You can always fill the gap between the plate and the wall with mud, caulking or chewing gum. Duct tape works too.


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## drumnut08

480sparky said:


> And what code would that be?


The NEDHC silly ! National electrical device height code , lol .


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## wildleg

the answers to your questions are in the ADAAG.

while some of the answers are in 4.27, the basic ones are 4.2.5 and 4.2.6
http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.2



> 4.2.5* Forward Reach. If the clear floor space only allows forward approach to an object, the maximum high forward reach allowed shall be 48 in (1220 mm) (see Fig. 5(a)). The minimum low forward reach is 15 in (380 mm). If the high forward reach is over an obstruction, reach and clearances shall be as shown in Fig. 5(b). Appendix Note
> 
> 4.2.6* Side Reach. If the clear floor space allows parallel approach by a person in a wheelchair, the maximum high side reach allowed shall be 54 in (1370 mm) and the low side reach shall be no less than 9 in (230 mm) above the floor (Fig. 6(a) and (b)). If the side reach is over an obstruction, the reach and clearances shall be as shown in Fig 6(c). Appendix Note


the above answers vary depending on how far forward you have to reach if your approach is forward, or sideways, so you should read 4.27, and for other occupancies other parts of this code may apply.

The reason I am quoting the above is because I hear a lot of people saying "put the center of the switch at 48", but if you READ the code, it says that the MAXIMUM height of the control should be at 48" (or the height that applies). Well, a switch/control centered at 48" would be a violation if the maximum height that applied was 48".
Same applies to MINIMUM heights for receptacles and controls.

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.27


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## Dennis Alwon

Unless you are dealing with ADA rules- most homes do not req. ADA rules- then there is no set height. I do switches and receptacles at 43" off the sub floor to the bottom of the box. Around here 48" is no longer the standard as 43" seems to be the accepted practice.

IMO, 48" for switches is too high and a bit of an eyesore.


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## big2bird

wildleg said:


> The reason I am quoting the above is because I hear a lot of people saying "put the center of the switch at 48", but if you READ the code, it says that the MAXIMUM height of the control should be at 48" (or the height that applies). Well, a switch/control centered at 48" would be a violation if the maximum height that applied was 48".
> Same applies to MINIMUM heights for receptacles and controls.
> 
> http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#4.27


Wrong. I have an illustrated inspectors handbook here that clearly says 48" max to centerline of switch.All local inspectors I have talked to accept this as norm.


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## wildleg

big2bird said:


> Wrong. I have an illustrated inspectors handbook here that clearly says 48" max to centerline of switch.All local inspectors I have talked to accept this as norm.


I quoted the exact ADA code. I'm not going to argue with you about what the ADA handbook says, nor what the inspectors think it says. READ what it says.


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## Dennis Alwon

I didn't take the OP as saying that his job was an ada job but rather whether the height is limited because of ADA rules. I would say there is no height nor lower limit in a residence unless the home is an ada home. 

Generally speaking homes do not need to meet ada standards.


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## Ultrafault

I put switches and counter recs at 48.5 to the top so the top of the box is the top of the lower course of sheetrock. If they use stretchboard then all bets are off.


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## FastFokker

Not your problem the owner chose extra tall backsplash.

Sounds like an extra charge to move them. Cha-Ching!


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## micbev

I have always done residential at 42 to the bottom. And in commercial 48 to the bottom or middle depending on prints or in this case backsplash. It is our responsibility to know what is being installed or so I have been told. But charge the guy and next time he will remember and u will too. Been there done that got burned but got paid.


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## highleg

I have a place on my upper hip that I hold the box into and then lean against the stud, placing the box perfectly* every time. 




**Where* it's placed I do not know. All I know is that it's perfect.


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## big2bird

wildleg said:


> I quoted the exact ADA code. I'm not going to argue with you about what the ADA handbook says, nor what the inspectors think it says. READ what it says.


I did. http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig5a.html

48" to centerline.


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## BBQ

big2bird said:


> I did. http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig5a.html
> 
> 48" to centerline.


Where are you finding centerline?

The switches handle cannot exceed 48" which it will if you make 48" the center of the box.


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## 220/221

Refer to the millwork elevations on the blueprints. 

If no elevations, ask and document.

Standard base cabinets are appx 36" and a "standard" splash is 4" so +44 to the bottom is my standard.


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## B4T

220/221 said:


> Refer to the millwork elevations on the blueprints.
> 
> If no elevations, ask and document.
> 
> Standard base cabinets are appx 36" and a "standard" splash is 4" so +44 to the bottom is my standard.


Just to add to those measurements.. there is usually 18" between countertop and upper cabinets..


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## big2bird

BBQ said:


> Where are you finding centerline?
> 
> The switches handle cannot exceed 48" which it will if you make 48" the center of the box.


BBQ. It's not rocket science. I have a CDA drawing here I will scan. CDA excedes ADA in Cal.
It's 48" to center. I mount all boxes 48" to center for switches, and 16" to center down low. That gives you the 15" minimum.
It's drawn that way to keep it simple. 
Quit trying to key in the fact when on the handle is above 48" by 1/4" or something like that. That is NOT the intent, nor is it the way it is written.
The illustration I will post later is in the Code Check handbook most all inspectors have in their truck for quick reference.


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## drumnut08

big2bird said:


> I did. http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig5a.html
> 
> 48" to centerline.


Try telling a mason that and see what happens to your box that's in between two courses , lol ! In between the 6th and 7th course to be exact . In block walls , I always did 16" to bottom of box for receptacles and 48" to top of box for switches and pull stations . ADA has been lowering switches more and more though .


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## big2bird

drumnut08 said:


> Try telling a mason that and see what happens to your box that's in between two courses , lol ! In between the 6th and 7th course to be exact . In block walls , I always did 16" to bottom of box for receptacles and 48" to top of box for switches and pull stations . ADA has been lowering switches more and more though .


Been there, done that, perfectly legal.


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## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Quit trying to key in the fact when on the handle is above 48" by 1/4" or something like that. That is NOT the intent, nor is it the way it is written.


It is the intent and it is the way it is written.


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## Chris1971

480sparky said:


> And what code would that be?


His own personal code book.:laughing:


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## big2bird

Here ya go BBQ. This is a book published by Taunton Press, recognised country wide as it contains both the UBC, IBC, ADA, NEFPA, SMACNA, and PIPE.
Most building inspectors are issued this $40, 200 page loose leaf binder.Most of my colleagues call it "Inspection for dummies."
IF you do your own remodeling, or do a lot of residential, I promise you this is a great book to have.










As hard is it is to believe the government actually made something stupid simple, here it is. Nobody carries around a micrometer. It's very easy to do.


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## Shockdoc

48" to the top of the box for switches and counter outlets, 40" to the bottom for bathroom outlets and switches.


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## Magnettica

I do 44" to the bottom of the box. Always that height since forever.


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## BBQ

big2bird said:


> Here ya go BBQ. This is a book published by Taunton Press, recognised country wide as it contains both the UBC, IBC, ADA, NEFPA, SMACNA, and PIPE.
> Most building inspectors are issued this $40, 200 page loose leaf binder.Most of my colleagues call it "Inspection for dummies."
> IF you do your own remodeling, or do a lot of residential, I promise you this is a great book to have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As hard is it is to believe the government actually made something stupid simple, here it is. Nobody carries around a micrometer. It's very easy to do.


You are really making this hard, wildleg quoted 'The law' you seem to be trying to quote someones opinion, I can't tell becuse it is too small to see.

See if you can follow this.

The ADA rules were not written specifically for wall switches, they were written for any item a handicapped person might have to interact with. A doorknob, a wall oven, a switch etc.

That being the case measurements to 'the center-line' would be, and are meaningless. 

The measurement is to the uppermost part that the person has to touch. So a switch mounted at 48" to center is in fact too high even if by just .75"

Now same applies to receptacles, 15" is the minimum height to the bottom, not the center-line. If you put a duplex at 15" to center the bottom receptacle is below the required minimum height.

I am sorry this logic escapes you but it really seems to be passing you by.


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## drumnut08

BBQ said:


> You are really making this hard, wildleg quoted 'The law' you seem to be trying to quote someones opinion, I can't tell becuse it is too small to see.
> 
> See if you can follow this.
> 
> The ADA rules were not written specifically for wall switches, they were written for any item a handicapped person might have to interact with. A doorknob, a wall oven, a switch etc.
> 
> That being the case measurements to 'the center-line' would be, and are meaningless.
> 
> The measurement is to the uppermost part that the person has to touch. So a switch mounted at 48" to center is in fact too high even if by just .75"
> 
> Now same applies to receptacles, 15" is the minimum height to the bottom, not the center-line. If you put a duplex at 15" to center the bottom receptacle is below the required minimum height.
> 
> I am sorry this logic escapes you but it really seems to be passing you by.


Centerline heights are big with electrical engineers on the legend page of plans . However , they usually say something like 18" to center ( which is 16" to bottom or 20 " to the top ) , or 46" to center ( 48" to top , 44" to bottom ) . Whatever height we're putting boxes , I'm fairly certain most of us aren't measuring to the center of the thing , lol ? Top or bottom of box or ring and even numbers . This isn't that hard , is it ?


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## Magnettica

Use a level too so each box is at the same height.


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## micbev

No offence buddy but are u an electrician. Or an shade tree electrician. This is day one stuff. It is a no brainer. Do u have prints on this job? Is it a customized job? Meaning higher than normal cabinets, that's right the backsplash was over sized. Look u adjust accordingly. Find out ahead of time, if not possible set them at 42", 44", 46" or even 48". The if the owner flips all of a sudden charge him. And adjust to the wider backsplash as u have done I am sure. It is ur pref. I set mine at 42" to the bottom. I think it works out perfect.


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## BBQ

drumnut08 said:


> Centerline heights are big with electrical engineers on the legend page of plans . ?


Of course they are.

But we are not talking about electrical engineers, we are talking about an ADA requirement that applies to a metric-buttload of different things, not just simple wall switches.:jester:

Picture a wall mounted oven that had to comply with the ADA, if you make it 48" to center at least 12" to 15" of it would be out of reach.


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## drumnut08

BBQ said:


> Of course they are.
> 
> But we are not talking about electrical engineers, we are talking about an ADA requirement that applies to a metric-buttload of different things, not just simple wall switches.:jester:
> 
> Picture a wall mounted oven that had to comply with the ADA, if you make it 48" to center at least 12" to 15" of it would be out of reach.


Again , not disagreeing with you at all . Different jobs call for different heights based on finishes , cabinetry and or counter height . Commercial buildings are a little more stringent with the ADA rules than a single family home . My point was , who the hell sets the height of a box by its center ?


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## drspec

drumnut08 said:


> Again , not disagreeing with you at all . Different jobs call for different heights based on finishes , cabinetry and or counter height . Commercial buildings are a little more stringent with the ADA rules than a single family home . My point was , who the hell sets the height of a box by its center ?


 
I do when I'm setting 4 sq brackets. Mark center line and set the notch on the bracket at the center mark. I thought everyone did


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## BBQ

drumnut08 said:


> My point was , who the hell sets the height of a box by its center ?


I do almost always. That way if you use different types of boxes on the same job the devices always end up the same.


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## drumnut08

drspec said:


> I do when I'm setting 4 sq brackets. Mark center line and set the notch on the bracket at the center mark. I thought everyone did


If its a center mounted box bracket , yes that makes sense . If its any other wall case with no center marking other than one you put on it , not so much . The point of this was some people apparently only set boxes based on centerline height , which in most cases is two inches above or below that height . I think the op 's question was wanting to know if there were standard " code defined " heights for setting boxes , but as with most threads , it spirals into something that barely resembles what it was , lol .


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## drspec

drumnut08 said:


> If its a center mounted box bracket , yes that makes sense . If its any other wall case with no center marking other than one you put on it , not so much . The point of this was some people apparently only set boxes based on centerline height , which in most cases is two inches above or below that height . I think the op 's question was wanting to know if there were standard " code defined " heights for setting boxes , but as with most threads , it spirals into something that barely resembles what it was , lol .


 

so....getting back on track of the op's question.

when IS the best time to plant lettuce in NC? :whistling2:


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## walkerj

BBQ said:


> I do almost always. That way if you use different types of boxes on the same job the devices always end up the same.


For a nail up box you are limited to top or bottom for your marks. 

If using 4" boxes with p rings, you mark out the center. 

We use caddy tsgb1624's for boxes so you mark the center. 

Most plans/specs call out centerline measurement. 

Most EEs specify 4" to bottom above the backsplash. 

If I had to wire a house after all this time I would bankrupt my company I think...


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## drumnut08

drspec said:


> so....getting back on track of the op's question.
> 
> when IS the best time to plant lettuce in NC? :whistling2:


The ides of march ?


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## BBQ

walkerj said:


> For a nail up box you are limited to top or bottom for your marks.


Maybe you are but not me, I am that good. :jester:


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## drumnut08

BBQ said:


> I do almost always. That way if you use different types of boxes on the same job the devices always end up the same.


Ok , wrong statement as I've used the center too . I don't care what part of the box people use as a benchmark , just keep it consistent . If it works for you , go for it . Now , I'm done ! Don't know how I got sucked into another almost pointless thread , damn !


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## big2bird

BBQ said:


> I am sorry this logic escapes you but it really seems to be passing you by.


The only thing that escapes me is your fear of being wrong.:laughing:


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## big2bird

BBQ said:


> I do almost always. That way if you use different types of boxes on the same job the devices always end up the same.


Yep. Sometimes you have a 4s, a ring, and a 4 11/16" box in a row. Kinda hard to work off the top.


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## walkerj

BBQ said:


> Maybe you are but not me, I am that good. :jester:


I agree. 
I was talking about the average romexicans here reading the thread :laughing:


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