# MC cable and wood framing



## MDShunk

I dunno. I use staples on MC that's in a wood framed building. Sometimes drive straps on the larger sizes. Even though we call them "NM staples", are they only supposed to be used on NM cable? Dang, you ask hard questions.


----------



## Joe Momma

We've always and only used 3/8's straps on MC in any installation. This may be because we didn't have staples readily available, or perhaps because we were too dumb to see an easier way......?


----------



## raider1

I have always used 3/8 straps also, but a staple would work just as well.

Chris


----------



## Speedy Petey

I use 9/16" staples for MC/AC in wood framing. Other than that I use BX(AC/MC) straps.


----------



## MDShunk

I was looking over some boxes of staples purposely today with this question in mind. The "regular" staples are marked on the box for NM cable only. The one's with long legs (9/16" and longer) are just marked "cable staples", so I guess that makes them okay for MC too. I've always used staples on MC when it's a wood framed building because it's quick and cheap. As with NM, you just don't need to bash them in like an idiot.


----------



## Joe Momma

Also instead of "wood framed"
Have you guys used the term "stick framed"?


----------



## MDShunk

Joe Momma said:


> Also instead of "wood framed"
> Have you guys used the term "stick framed"?


No, because a building can be of wood framed construction that wasn't stick framed. Stick framing is a process by which wood framing is utilized. Stick framing implies that a pile of lumber got delivered to the job, and it was assembled stick by stick. Wood framing can by of modular components, such as panelized walls, factory fabricated trusses, etc.


----------



## Joe Momma

Didn't know that MD, so by that logic if there are factory trusses the building was not stick framed?

I've always heard the term in reference to any wood framed structure, or at least so I thought, but I may have assumed.


----------



## brian john

Around here it is called stick built, and the carpenters I know will add with a trussed roof if trusses were utilized. 
And while I am not sure they are necessarily better, carpenters feel they are better, much like electricians would about a prewired assembly.

But one thing I have picked up as I travel the country for projects is the terminology, what we call a 1900 box, I have heard referred to as a 4 Square, standard square (as compared to an 11-B square?). Different areas have different names such as mineralacs or stand offs.


----------



## Joe Momma

I've heard "stand offs" reffered to as 'back-straps' but not mineralacs, but I've never heard a 4s called a 1900 box

Just wait till that 'hart lock' guy reads this and gets his panty's in a bunch.


----------



## brian john

Joe do you call them 4 square or a 4S? What about 4 11/16 Square = 11B or 3" round=8B?


----------



## rod213

We call 4 squares 4x4's. 4 11/16ths we call 4 11's.

How about strut. I've heard it called junior (7/8ths) and senior (1 5/8th's) strut. Normally we just call it by it's measurement though.


----------



## brian john

How about strut. I've heard it called junior (7/8ths) and senior (1 5/8th's) strut. Normally we just call it by it's measurement though.[/quote]


You mean Kindorf (no matter who makes it or the color.)


----------



## Joe Momma

I call it 4s here for typing's sake, because I'm sure everyone knows what I mean. But in the real world I'll say the words four square.

For strut we'll call it deep and shallow, but typically call it by it's measurement.


----------



## MDShunk

brian john said:


> Joe do you call them 4 square or a 4S? What about 4 11/16 Square = 11B or 3" round=8B?


I call a 4" square box a "4 square". I call a 4-11/16" square box a "4-11/16th box". I have a guy that calls them "five by fives", and it drives me batty. 

I always knew an 8B to be a 4-1/8" octagon box, but I just call them an "octagon box". 

Mostly I order by the Steel City or Raco part number, so that I can get the exact case of boxes I wanted. SC and Raco part numbers cross over to whatever brand any supply house carries. Last time I ordered a few cases of 4 squares by name only, I got deep welded one's and they're almost exactly 3 times more expensive than 1-1/2" drawn boxes. That's what causes me to order by part number.


----------



## brian john

Here we call them 1900 or 1900 deep. I was once told Washington DC was the only area to call boxes by these numbers.


----------



## MDShunk

brian john said:


> Here we call them 1900 or 1900 deep. I was once told Washington DC was the only area to call boxes by these numbers.


I don't know... I've known guys who call them 1900 boxes, but I'm not far at all from DC. I know I've heard guys at the supply house asking for them by that name. I don't know what "1900" refers to, because they're closer to 21.00 cubic inches, as memory serves. Might have been an old part number. 

I hear the term "Gem box" a lot too, and I have no idea what that is. I'm not ashamed to admit it either. :laughing: I think it refers to a beveled corner metal wall box, but I'm not sure.


----------



## MDShunk

Joe Momma said:


> Didn't know that MD, so by that logic if there are factory trusses the building was not stick framed?.


In that case, it would be a little of both. A stick framed building with factory built trusses.


----------



## Joe Momma

You've got me on the "gem box" name too.

Though for certain installations I do prefer the pressed boxes over the welded boxes.

Oh and 4 11/16 boxes are also called "4 11/16's" boxes here too


----------



## MDShunk

Joe Momma said:


> You've got me on the "gem box" name too.


Well, I just had to research it a little. Seems it's a pretty generic slang term, that can refer to just about any style of 2" x 3" metal wall box.


----------



## brian john

Gem box is a common name here, and then there is old work gem, how about mud box and do you have a utility box? And heck we have not started wiring the place.

I was told 1900 was an old part number, maybe we need the Discovery Mythbusters


----------



## MDShunk

brian john said:


> how about mud box and do you have a utility box?


Mud boxes I call masonary boxes. Utility boxes I call handy boxes. Somebody needs to start posting this slang stuff in the electrical section of www.Buildpedia.com


----------



## Mountain Electrician

I've always used 4 square and 4-11. I use p-ring or mud ring for plaster ring. A utility box is a handy box, old work boxes are cut in boxes, and reducing washers are called chineese money. Also, I often call my 9" linesman pliers "kliens" regardless of the brand. I'm about 30 miles from Quebec, and there they call unistrut "cantruss", which really threw me for a loop.


----------



## HCECalaska

some times i think they need a translation dictionary on just electrical material. depending on where your at it a 4s box a 4square or a 1900, but that is just the standard box. then add the 2 1/8 box. you have steam boats, battle ships, and box supports, all the same part. you have boxes with lume clamps 

will the madness never end?


----------



## faber307

some of our local slang:

cut in box supports = Madisons
1/4" beam clamp = fulman
9' diagonals = dikes
water pump pliars = dogs
split bolt = Kerney
right angle GRC clamp = Korn


cut in box = 222
Masonary box in lieu of "mud" although I've heard it used.
4" square special = 1-1/2" deep combo ko's
4" square deep = 2-1/8"
guy wire clamp = Crosby
Rod clamp = acorn


----------



## John

Here are couple more that i don't see.

I use the term Madison clips also and you have to be careful when using side wired devices because I have seen them short out.  If you use them I wrap tape aroud the device so it won't short out.

"Spring Wings" and if you say it fast enough it sounds like spirg wigs.

MD has said “Smart Box” a few times and I call it an inside rework box.

I use the the terms 4 square and 4-11 also. 

"Pull Ell"= RACO 2752 conduit fitting 

This is a new one that my apprentice started using and it drives me crazy. "Green Piggy's" for ground pigtail.


----------



## Mountain Electrician

John said:


> This is a new one that my apprentice started using and it drives me crazy. "Green Piggy's" for ground pigtail.


Thats new to me for sure. I've heard the grounding wirenuts called "greenies"


----------



## Louieb

Gem box is a metal outlet box w/ears(nail on )_old work used w/madison bars or sheetrock clips, beleive GEM came from GE manufacturing like back in knob and tube days,right after gaslight......


----------



## Louieb

Gem box is a metal outlet box w/ears(slap on )_old work used w/madison bars or sheetrock clips,or the (nailon) with nails going thru the side of the back of the box in which you will never get a gfic in .I beleive GEM came from GE manufacturing like back in knob and tube days,right after gaslight......


----------



## Joe Momma

Mountain Electrician said:


> I've always used 4 square and 4-11. I use p-ring or mud ring for plaster ring. A utility box is a handy box, old work boxes are cut in boxes, and reducing washers are called chineese money. Also, I often call my 9" linesman pliers "kliens" regardless of the brand. I'm about 30 miles from Quebec, and there they call unistrut "cantruss", which really threw me for a loop.


 
We line up exactly with this slang, and I've always seen odd slang as people trying to hard to sound different or throw you for a loop.

I'm sure this list could go on for days, especially if you get into the obscene terms, ever heard an auger type sheetrock anchor, also known as "zip-it's", called "pig d*cks"

And it seems every new apprentice doesn't know what a "tye wrap" is until you say "zip-tye"


----------



## oldnslow

4 square
4-11
3-O box
4-0 box
f-straps, battleship clamps


----------



## frank

Keep it simple. I buy boxes as;

Switch box
Single box
Double box
Dual appliance box ( to fit 2 single units side by side) All come as 20mm/25mm/32mm/40mm/50mm. Pressed galvanised steel.

Clips are 1mm/2.5mm/4mm/6mm/10mm/16mm for twin and earth flat cable 
and ditto for round cables.

We do not use the staples you find in the US Not used them for years. You would find autostaples though for clipping alarm cables with a gun. But not for heavy current carrying cable. After above we use saddles and strappers.












Round Clip and Flat clip



Frank


----------



## Mountain Electrician

Thought of a couple more:

pancake box is shallow 3-O box 
pecker head is motor junction box


----------



## Joe Momma

pancake box has also been called a "panic box" in CA


----------



## mdfriday

brian john said:


> Here we call them 1900 or 1900 deep. I was once told Washington DC was the only area to call boxes by these numbers.


 
1900, 11B, 8B here in Illinois. Then you have deep, with or with out bracket, 1.5" bracket. To many combos.


----------



## mdfriday

MDShunk said:


> I hear the term "Gem box" a lot too, and I have no idea what that is. I'm not ashamed to admit it either. :laughing: I think it refers to a beveled corner metal wall box, but I'm not sure.


 
Some times on the case of handy boxes it says, "Gem box." We usually refer to cut-in boxes as handy boxes. The hangers are called madison hangers. One dude calls 'em ears.


----------



## BIGRED

Check out www.tradeslang.com


----------



## brian11973

:laughing:


mdfriday said:


> Some times on the case of handy boxes it says, "Gem box." We usually refer to cut-in boxes as handy boxes. The hangers are called madison hangers. One dude calls 'em ears.


 
Cutins's r knot handy boxes. Can we get the English screwed up anymore more?? Madison straps are just that. "Ears" referrs to the screws / clamps on the sides of the boxes? Plastic boxes have the clamps on the top / bottom. Maybe we should give them a different name than metal boxes???:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: There must be :jester: out there naming this stuff for us!


----------



## walkerj

We call a nailon box an LC. dunno why tho


----------



## Bkessler

You guys ever buy a carton of eggs? You know a box of equipment green ground screws!


----------



## 220/221

Nobody else calls 4 11/16 boxes "5 square"?


----------



## MDShunk

220/221 said:


> Nobody else calls 4 11/16 boxes "5 square"?


I worked with an old man once that called them "5 by 5's". Only person I ran across like that. Wasn't really a big deal. Everyone knew what he meant.


----------



## kbsparky

17-A Box:









8-B Box:









Gem Box:









1900 Box:









2100 or 11-B Box:


----------



## kbsparky

Pancake or Dishpan:









Utility or Handy Box:









Mud Box:


----------



## Andy in ATL

1900, 1900 deep, and 4 11 boxes in ATL. Those little "f" clips that holf a cut in box are called jiffy clips here.


----------



## WIREDOG

back on topic the code is very clear. you treat nm and mc the same as securing. same rules apply either way. me recomendatio is 1/4" ridid straps on single wires or a normal staple because there is no bunching factor with mc, it is too big to buch more then one under one staple.


----------



## beartard

Andy in ATL said:


> 1900, 1900 deep, and 4 11 boxes in ATL. Those little "f" clips that hold a cut in box are called jiffy clips here.


Thank you!
And we have pancake boxes and shallow/deep octagon boxes (sometimes 8B, never 17A).


----------



## kbsparky

The "17-A" box is the older type: 3¼" octagon or round; while the "8-B" refers to the 4" octagon.


----------



## beartard

Gotcha. Hadn't heard that term before.


----------



## MSheild

If MC and NM are to be treated the same can we secure MC to wood framing with a staple gun shooting uninsulated staples?

We always refer to madison straps as battle ships.


----------



## leland

Thats because they look like the battle ship Madison.

Old post sorry, Up late for no reason .


----------



## Minky

*Weimaraner*

Loved the Weimaraner pic by an earlier poster.:thumbsup: Cool as f**k!


----------



## obi-wan

MSheild said:


> If MC and NM are to be treated the same can we secure MC to wood framing with a staple gun shooting uninsulated staples?
> 
> We always refer to madison straps as battle ships.


Word to Battleships, same slang In Arizona.

Some places in Texas the city or county codes state to use only listed straps so there the answer would be no. 

Any inspector could bust you on 110.3*. The universal code of hurt feelings.*


----------



## electricalperson

Rikki said:


> Is it okay to use a staple, such as the Viking #125, to secure MC cable to wood framing? If not, what are some other easy, low-cost options for this application?
> 
> Thank you.


i use insulated staples. :whistling2:


----------



## w.krueger

The subject of this post has gone off in a odd direction. NEC 330.30 states that MC cable can be secured with staples,cable ties,straps,hangers, or similar fittings. Staples rated for type NM cannot be used for MC. MC staples are different than MN staples because that have a insulation on them to protect from digging into the cable. Most staple boxes specify what type of cable they are rated for.


----------



## MDShunk

w.krueger said:


> The subject of this post has gone off in a odd direction. NEC 330.30 states that MC cable can be secured with staples,cable ties,straps,hangers, or similar fittings. Staples rated for type NM cannot be used for MC. MC staples are different than MN staples because that have a insulation on them to protect from digging into the cable. Most staple boxes specify what type of cable they are rated for.


Untrue. Staples have no listing.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> Untrue. Staples have no listing.


Not only untrue, but impractical as well. A staple is a staple.


----------



## w.krueger

try reading on your staple box, it WILL clearly say what type of electrical application it can be used for. try gardner bender web site, NM staples are clearly different from MC staples.


----------



## Speedy Petey

w.krueger said:


> try reading on your staple box, it WILL clearly say what type of electrical application it can be used for. try gardner bender web site, NM staples are clearly different from MC staples.


That's IF your area requires insulated staples. Not all do obviously. 

Marc is right, NM staples are NO different from MC or AC staples. All that matters is the size of the staple and the cable in question. 

Look here, it's pretty clear: http://www.brisconelectric.com/catalogPages/1_cableStaples.pdf
Even insulated staples are rated for MC and AC.


----------



## w.krueger

Some areas do obviously, our inspectors would have a fit if they saw uninsulated staples used on MC. If you feel that pounding a metal staple into MC cable is ok, then fine but IMO its safer not to. I guess it comes down to what you feel is comfortable, I will opt for the better staples


----------



## Speedy Petey

w.krueger said:


> Some areas do obviously, our inspectors would have a fit if they saw uninsulated staples used on MC. If you feel that pounding a metal staple into MC cable is ok, then fine but IMO its safer not to. I guess it comes down to what you feel is comfortable, I will opt for the better staples


Better why? Because you say so? 
Safer? Are you saying that Briscon staples are less safe because they will let you use both insulated and non-insulated staples on both NM and MC/AC?

And would your inspectors have any written substantiation for having this fit, or do they just want it that way? :whistling2:


----------



## 347sparky

I asked one of our inspectors about 7 years ago about using romex staples on MC cable in wood framing and he had no problem with it.



> Some areas do obviously, our inspectors would have a fit if they saw uninsulated staples used on MC. If you feel that pounding a metal staple* into* MC cable is ok, then fine but IMO its safer not to. I guess it comes down to what you feel is comfortable, I will opt for the better staples


Why would they need to be insulated on MC cable?

Plus I put the staple around the MC cable, not into it.


----------



## w.krueger

What i'm saying is that it depends on what brand of staples you are using. Briscon staples let you use both, others do not. If a inspector asks to see what type you are using and the box says type NM only, they will probably have a problem. And yes I THINK insulated staples ARE BETTER for MC, whatever you think is your opinion. Like I said the first time, the box says what it is or isnt allowed to be used for. As for arguing with a inspector, always a smart move right?


----------



## Speedy Petey

w.krueger said:


> What i'm saying is that it depends on what brand of staples you are using. Briscon staples let you use both, others do not. If a inspector asks to see what type you are using and the box says type NM only, they will probably have a problem. And yes I THINK insulated staples ARE BETTER for MC, whatever you think is your opinion. Like I said the first time, the box says what it is or isnt allowed to be used for. As for arguing with a inspector, always a smart move right?


You said using insulated staples was better. WHY is this? I am curious because I can't think of a reason. 
My supply house carries Briscon, so I guess I'm all good. :thumbsup: :whistling2:

And yes, arguing with inspectors is dumb. Asking them for a code citation is smart IMO. It keeps both of you honest and on your toes. 
Do you simply jump whenever an inspector asks for something silly like this?


----------



## w.krueger

My supply house carries GB, which is not rated for MC. Maybe I will recommend your brand to them! And yes code citations are nice, but if my box of staples says type NM only I can tell you what code citation it will be. I agree that the NM GB brand looks the same as your brand that is rated for MC, but in the end the box will make the difference, because the box says what it is rated for.


----------



## MDShunk

I just checked on how the UL evaluates staples. They only check metal staples for mechanical strength and resistance to corrosion. Not for suitability on any certain cable type.


----------



## 220/221

w.krueger said:


> The subject of this post has gone off in a odd direction.



Yeah.....4.5 years ago. 


And my staples come in a bucket that says "staples".


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> What i'm saying is that it depends on what brand of staples you are using. Briscon staples let you use both, others do not. If a inspector asks to see what type you are using and the box says type NM only, they will probably have a problem. And yes I THINK insulated staples ARE BETTER for MC, whatever you think is your opinion. Like I said the first time, the box says what it is or isnt allowed to be used for. As for arguing with a inspector, always a smart move right?


Code wise I can support MC with a bent over nail. 

I have no clue at all why you think MC cable needs insulated staples, that is just plain nuts.


----------



## B4T

BBQ said:


> Code wise I can support MC with a bent over nail.
> 
> I have no clue at all why you think MC cable needs insulated staples, that is just plain nuts.


I think his reasoning is same as using steel hangers on copper water pipes.. two different metals produces oxidation??? :blink::blink:


----------



## BBQ

B4T said:


> I think his reasoning is same as using steel hangers on copper water pipes.. two different metals produces oxidation??? :blink::blink:


Maybe ......

Looks like I need to get some insulated EMT straps. :laughing:


----------



## RGH

curveball time...how about issues with overdriven staples f"ing with AFIC....anyone have this issue(s) yet...2007 not an issue...2012 things have changed...have at it....


----------



## w.krueger

Insulated EMT straps? Ive never seen a EMT strap cut through EMT, dont even think its possible. I have seen quite a few staples that were hammered into MC,AC,and NM to tightly and caused a short. I'm not saying you cant use non insulated staples for MC, if the box says you can then you can. I wouldnt but that personal preference. As far as using a nail, are you supporting it or securing it?


----------



## Going_Commando

I'll use 125s all day long with MC. Heck, I've even used uninsulated staples on NM when I ran out of insulated! Oh the humanity! It ain't a fricken nail, so don't treat it like one, and you'll be all set.


----------



## CFL

w.krueger said:


> Insulated EMT straps? Ive never seen a EMT strap cut through EMT, dont even think its possible. I have seen quite a few staples that were hammered into MC,AC,and NM to tightly and caused a short. I'm not saying you cant use non insulated staples for MC, if the box says you can then you can. I wouldnt but that personal preference. As far as using a nail, are you supporting it or securing it?


 
I've never used an insulated staple for anything. But if I really felt the need, I would use it on nm before I would think about using it on mc. You shouldn't smash any type of cable with any type of staple, period. And a bent over nail works just fine sometimes.

I have a feeling you are wasting a lot of time and money out there if you are devoting this much attention to such a stupid idea. I know you'll come around though.:thumbsup:


----------



## icefalkon

As far as I remember, you ONLY need an insulated staple for NM...DEFINITELY not for MC Cable. We use it all the time...and yes...our staples come in a box labeled STAPLES too. LOL

Steve from NYC


----------



## w.krueger

I guess there is a abundance of boxes only labeled 'staples', i bet if you do a little more research you will find what they are rated for. As far as code goes, its all relevant to me, no matter how small you might think it is, otherwise it wont be in the code book, right? ALL electrical staples have a listing for them (and if they dont then they dont comply with code), whether MC,AC,NM,etc, its your job to find out, or not i guess. Its amazing that so many people overlook things like this that could cost you big on a job if the inspector calls you out. All my employees know this. And you DONT have to use insulated staples on NM, better off to, but not code. Nails should be saved for what nails are made for, none of which involve strapping electrical wire


----------



## icefalkon

w.krueger said:


> I guess there is a abundance of boxes only labeled 'staples', i bet if you do a little more research you will find what they are rated for. As far as code goes, its all relevant to me, no matter how small you might think it is, otherwise it wont be in the code book, right? ALL electrical staples have a listing for them (and if they dont then they dont comply with code), whether MC,AC,NM,etc, its your job to find out, or not i guess. Its amazing that so many people overlook things like this that could cost you big on a job if the inspector calls you out. All my employees know this. And you DONT have to use insulated staples on NM, better off to, but not code. Nails should be saved for what nails are made for, none of which involve strapping electrical wire


I have to agree with w.krueger on this. It is our job to know what staples are correct for the job. I especially like the line about using nails for the purpose for which they're made!

Steve from NYC


----------



## MDShunk

Some guys sure do get a woody about staples. I have a letter from the president of an electrical staple company, where he plainly states that the only qualification is "is it secure"?


----------



## parnellelectric

Just dont leave the bucket or box on the job. That way the inspector will not know. Who uses GB anything? I thought GB stuff only came from Home Depot.?


----------



## w.krueger

so if I get a letter from Obama stating that #10 thhn is good for 100 amps would the inspector give a sh!t? probably not! it's just funny (kinda sad)when a electrican dosent know if the staple or any other product is 'approved and listed' for that application. you should care enough to know, any electrican that dosent isn't a very good electrician. Home depot sells Klein so I guess that's crap to huh? And just hide it so the inspector won't know, that's some pretty good advice.


----------



## Speedy Petey

w.krueger said:


> so if I get a letter from Obama stating that #10 thhn is good for 100 amps would the inspector give a sh!t? probably not! it's just funny (kinda sad)when a electrican dosent know if the staple or any other product is 'approved and listed' for that application. you should care enough to know, any electrican that dosent isn't a very good electrician. Home depot sells Klein so I guess that's crap to huh? And just hide it so the inspector won't know, that's some pretty good advice.


This is just silly. You are arguing full tilt that one insulated staple rated for the job is better than an uninsulated staple rated for the SAME JOB. And that if you use the wrong uninsulated staple it is some sort of dangerous thing and the person in question is "not much of an electrician".
Dude, get over yourself. It's staples. Use the right staple for the job and move on. Like I said, don't use junk GB staples and you'll be FINE. Briscons and most others don't have such silly convoluted cable ratings.


----------



## user4818

Speedy Petey said:


> Dude, get over yourself. It's staples.


Exactly. :thumbsup:


----------



## parnellelectric

w.krueger said:


> so if I get a letter from Obama stating that #10 thhn is good for 100 amps would the inspector give a sh!t? probably not! it's just funny (kinda sad)when a electrican dosent know if the staple or any other product is 'approved and listed' for that application. you should care enough to know, any electrican that dosent isn't a very good electrician. Home depot sells Klein so I guess that's crap to huh? And just hide it so the inspector won't know, that's some pretty good advice.


Dont get mad because you use crappy staples. Just buy better material...made for a electrician, not a hack...


----------



## Jlarson

:laughing: They're just staples, hammer them in and move along.


----------



## icefalkon

I find it interesting how some guys are so quick to judge the skill of another based upon one or a few statements...without ever having met the individual or seen his work. In my opinion, that is ridiculous. 

What was that Aerosmith line...

"if you can judge a wise man by the color of his skin...then mister you're a better man than I..."

No one here can judge or has the right to judge another's skill level based on the comments they type. They, like you...may have had a bad day...or are just venting...or are kidding around and the words came out wrong. I'm sorry, I have a particular problem with that. I've worked for some of the largest electrical contractors in the United States and have had to evaluate Journeymen to determine who gets kept, and who gets laid off. Throwing a snap judgement out on someone...union or non union...because of an errant statement, in my opinion, is just not right. It's arrogance. 

::stepping off soapbox::

Sorry.

Steve from NYC


----------



## w.krueger

if u read anything I've said you would know that I don't care what brand of staple you use as long as it's listed for that application, the hacks are the ones who say hide the box or use a nail. mad cause I use crappy staples, sounds like you are the one defending your brand of staples, not me. as long as it's listed for the application I'll use any staple. and yes if your staples are made for it they will say it. it's more crappy for someone not to care than just educating yourself, no matter how small it might seem. and I stand behind my work longer than 2 years....


----------



## icefalkon

w.krueger said:


> if u read anything I've said you would know that I don't care what brand of staple you use as long as it's listed for that application, the hacks are the ones who say hide the box or use a nail. mad cause I use crappy staples, sounds like you are the one defending your brand of staples, not me. as long as it's listed for the application I'll use any staple. and yes if your staples are made for it they will say it. it's more crappy for someone not to care than just educating yourself, no matter how small it might seem.


Again, good points. It's the delivery I think. Misinterpreting your meaning seems to be what's happening. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## parnellelectric

http://meproducts.net/products?subcategory=C54

Try these, you might save a few bucks.....


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> if u read anything I've said you would know that I don't care what brand of staple you use as long as it's listed for that application,


And if you would listen for a minute you might pick up that staples are not required to be listed and that many of use staples that are not listed and can be used for many applications.


----------



## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> And if you would listen for a minute you might pick up that staples are not required to be listed and that many of use staples that are not listed and can be used for many applications.


You're not much of an electrician :lol:


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> You're not much of an electrician :lol:


Well no chit.:laughing:


----------



## parnellelectric

teaching, teaching....always teaching....


----------



## w.krueger

so nec 110.2 "approval" , does not apply to staples? if it's listed as a NM staple then u can't use it for any other cable, simple as that. and saving bucks on staples, if your that worried about staples blowing your budget...wow. so if I use a stapler from my office to staple romex its ok by your definition ?


----------



## parnellelectric

Nobody seems to care about cost until there paying for it.
And no, the stapler from the office is a bad idea, unless its for cable.


----------



## Jlarson

Only time you need to worry about the listing of a staple is if you bother buying listed staples.



BBQ said:


> many of us use staples that are not listed and can be used for many applications.


I too get a bucket that says "staples". We use them on MC, antenna coax, grounding conductors, belden cable ect....

We also buy big buckets of unlisted staples from our pole line hardware supplier for when we do wood pole work for telemetry antennas, power, site lighting.


----------



## Going_Commando

w.krueger said:


> so nec 110.2 "approval" , does not apply to staples? if it's listed as a NM staple then u can't use it for any other cable, simple as that. and saving bucks on staples, if your that worried about staples blowing your budget...wow. so if I use a stapler from my office to staple romex its ok by your definition ?


IT'S A GOD DAMN STAPLE! It's not like it grows magic burrs and eats its way into the wire causing a catastrophic failure or something, it's a F****** STAPLE! Though, you probably can't see the box of staples from astride your high horse.


----------



## erics37

I avoid the whole staple cable listing/rating issue by simply not installing them.


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> so nec 110.2 "approval" , does not apply to staples? if it's listed as a NM staple then u can't use it for any other cable, simple as that. and saving bucks on staples, if your that worried about staples blowing your budget...wow. so if I use a stapler from my office to staple romex its ok by your definition ?


You have to be trolling, no one can get this worked up over a bent steel wire.


----------



## Going_Commando

w.krueger said:


> so nec 110.2 "approval" , does not apply to staples? if it's listed as a NM staple then u can't use it for any other cable, simple as that. and saving bucks on staples, if your that worried about staples blowing your budget...wow. so if I use a stapler from my office to staple romex its ok by your definition ?


Are your zip ties listed for wiring support, with numbers, conductor type, and size when you use them to bundle control wiring and the like?


----------



## w.krueger

yes my zip ties (bag says 'cable' ties) are listed for supporting/securing cable, it even gives you a max diameter for bundling. And if your box of staples says cable in front of it then it's listed. I'm not on a high horse, if you really knew me I'm pretty humble. I talked to our head inspector about this so it dosent bother me, and if I'm so wrong it shouldn't bother you, right?


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> yes my zip ties (bag says 'cable' ties) are listed for supporting/securing cable, it even gives you a max diameter for bundling. And if your box of staples says cable in front of it then it's listed. I'm not on a high horse, if you really knew me I'm pretty humble. I talked to our head inspector about this so it dosent bother me, and if I'm so wrong it shouldn't bother you, right?


Nothing is listed unless there is an NRTL mark on it


By the way, tie wraps unless for plenums are not required to be listed,


----------



## w.krueger

I guess I should have said approved, not listed. I'm not saying that if it's not it's going to start a fire or anything like that, I'm just stating what the nec says


----------



## w.krueger

was at a home depot buying lumber, decided to check put their staples, asked the guy in the electrical department if they had staples for MC, took me right to them, then asked if they had them for NM, sure, just read the box he said, it tells you right there. funny the guy at home depot knows more about that than some electricians. Reading is so overrated anyways


----------



## icefalkon

LOL trouble maker...LOL

Steve from NYC


----------



## 220/221

Mine are listed for BX...what about MC, AC , HGAC etc? I guess I better throw them out because I haven't seen a piece of BX installed here since 1950 something.


----------



## Shockdoc

220/221 said:


> Mine are listed for BX...what about MC, AC , HGAC etc? I guess I better throw them out because I haven't seen a piece of BX installed here since 1950 something.


The problem I see with staples and the "new" lightwieght aluminum MC and AC is hammering down often crushes the jacket too easily


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> was at a home depot buying lumber, decided to check put their staples, asked the guy in the electrical department if they had staples for MC, took me right to them, then asked if they had them for NM, sure, just read the box he said, it tells you right there. funny the guy at home depot knows more about that than some electricians. Reading is so overrated anyways



You should just quit before you look more foolish.

This was the closest box of staples to me ....... even UL listed, not required but can be buy choice.


----------



## w.krueger

o so staples are listed for what they are meant to be used with. but a staple is a staple....and your bucket says romex/bx, they still do use romex so keep them. and a UL listing, impressive


----------



## BBQ

w.krueger said:


> o so staples are listed for what they are meant to be used with. but a staple is a staple....


Try to follow along and we can teach how to become a contractor. :thumbsup:

The NEC does not require staples to be listed, never has.

So if you buy 'unlisted' staples you can use they however the hell you want. I was dead serious the NEC does not prohibit supporting MC with a bent nail.



Now on the other hand, if you do happen to buy listed staples than 110.3(B) requires them to be used as listed and labeled.


----------



## Speedy Petey

BBQ said:


> Now on the other hand, if you do happen to buy listed staples than 110.3(B) requires them to be used as listed and labeled.


CRAP!

I was driving some staples today.....but without safety glasses. I was in violation of 110.3(B). 
I think I'm in trouble.


----------



## Shockdoc

RX staples hold chicken wire up pretty well


----------



## Shockdoc

Speedy Petey said:


> CRAP!
> 
> I was driving some staples today.....but without safety glasses. I was in violation of 110.3(B).
> I think I'm in trouble.


Indeed you are, the electrical police and OSHA will be pulling up in your driveway any minute.:jester:


----------



## BBQ

Speedy Petey said:


> CRAP!
> 
> I was driving some staples today.....but without safety glasses. I was in violation of 110.3(B).
> I think I'm in trouble.


I was thinking the same thing when I was taking the picture, I almost cropped it out.


----------



## hardworkingstiff

Shockdoc said:


> The problem I see with staples and the "new" lightwieght aluminum MC and AC is hammering down often crushes the jacket too easily


I guess that's where the skill part comes into the skilled tradesman? :jester:


----------



## drspec

I remember working at an OSHA inspectors personal house a couple of years back. I told my guys to do something a certain way. I can't recall what it was exactly, but I remember what he said.

"Don't worry about that Osha ****. This is my house. I don't care."

Then he gave me his business card and told me if I ever had a problem, to let him know.

Damn, now I wonder what I did with his card.


----------



## icefalkon

drspec said:


> I remember working at an OSHA inspectors personal house a couple of years back. I told my guys to do something a certain way. I can't recall what it was exactly, but I remember what he said.
> 
> "Don't worry about that Osha ****. This is my house. I don't care."
> 
> Then he gave me his business card and told me if I ever had a problem, to let him know.
> 
> Damn, now I wonder what I did with his card.


LOL now that's funny!

That's like...a lot of us electricians have the worst garages...basements out there. I swear my wife broke my balls the whole time I had pig tails and cages in the basement during the remodel...

Well...maybe for the year or so after the remodel...

But still...LOL

At least I had cages on them! 

Steve from NYC


----------



## 347sparky

> That's like...a lot of us electricians have the worst garages...basements out there. I swear my wife broke my balls the whole time I had pig tails and cages in the basement during the remodel...


Ha! I just put on my garage panel cover tonight while doing some light cleaning. I think it's been off maybe 3-4 years!


----------



## Going_Commando

347sparky said:


> Ha! I just put on my garage panel cover tonight while doing some light cleaning. I think it's been off maybe 3-4 years!


Somewhere I have pictures of my Great Uncle's panel (electrician for 30 years), and he didn't use a single romex connector on his panel. Just ran all the circuits right in the front when he built his house. :laughing:


----------



## icefalkon

LOL it's just how we're....wait for it....

wired...

Ha! Try the veal...I'm here all week!  LOL


----------



## HARRY304E

347sparky said:


> Ha! I just put on my garage panel cover tonight while doing some light cleaning. I think it's been off maybe 3-4 years!


I used mine on another job....:laughing:


----------



## icefalkon

HARRY304E said:


> I used mine on another job....:laughing:


LOL not for nothin...I've done that too...:thumbsup:


----------



## hardworkingstiff

347sparky said:


> Ha! I just put on my garage panel cover tonight while doing some light cleaning. I think it's been off maybe 3-4 years!


You are so lucky your house didn't burn down!


----------



## 347sparky

hardworkingstiff said:


> You are so lucky your house didn't burn down!


Detached garage 100' from the house. But now that I think about it, the panel in the basement has the cover off too.


----------



## icefalkon

347sparky said:


> Detached garage 100' from the house. But now that I think about it, the panel in the basement has the cover off too.


LOL too funny~!


----------

