# How do you wire 3 ways?



## Arrow3030

I was splicing a ground up construction today which I haven't done in a while. I noticed the other electricians were putting all the neutrals together for three/four ways in every box, 3 wire was ran between each set of switches.
I'm pretty sure this makes a series parallel on the neutral and is a code violation. I'm also pretty sure this is a common practice. 
My questions are, do you keep your neutral clean and how bad could the EMF really be if not?


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## Dennis Alwon

Yes the 3 way neutrals should be separate otherwise it is a violation. You will have parallel paths on the neutral- a violation, and you will create electromagnetic field's but that is not a violation unless the wiring method is metallic.


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## chicken steve

They'll be having to parse those noodles out for the afci/gfci's....~CS~


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## Arrow3030

I think the afci/gfci's will still work because the paralleled neutral goes back to a single neutral to get to the panel. 
Will having a bunch of paralleled neutrals all over the house create a large enough EMF issue to disrupt the daily life of an occupant?


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## macmikeman

chicken steve said:


> They'll be having to parse those noodles out for the afci/gfci's....~CS~


I think they have been quietly taking gfi out of the afci breakers. Actually I think they have been taking afci's out of afci breakers as well, but they look the same and still cost fifty bucks.......... win, win...


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## chicken steve

Arrow3030 said:


> I think the afci/gfci's will still work because the paralleled neutral goes back to a single neutral to get to the panel.
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the norm Arrow....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will having a bunch of paralleled neutrals all over the house create a large enough EMF issue to disrupt the daily life of an occupant?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quantifying what that would be something of a sisyphean feat
> 
> jmho
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## Arrow3030

CS,
By referencing sisyphus I assume you mean it isn't a big deal. Not sure if I'm correct on that. Do you keep your neutrals separate when doing make up?
Personally, I didn't even know it was a code issue until a year ago. Now that I know I wasn't trained properly I've modified my technique.


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## backstay

Mixing neutrals from different circuits?


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## Arrow3030

No, same circuit. I'll try explaining better. 
Example:
A set of 3ways are on opposite ends of a hall.
Both 3ways are in 2 gang boxes with a SPST
A 14/2 is ran to both boxes supplying 120v to each.
A 14/3 is ran between for the travelers and a neutral. 
A 14/2 is ran to the light controlled by the 3ways from the far end box.

Now, if you hooked up all the neutrals in the far end box you get a paralleled neutral between the boxes.


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## Barjack

Arrow3030 said:


> No, same circuit. I'll try explaining better.
> Example:
> A set of 3ways are on opposite ends of a hall.
> Both 3ways are in 2 gang boxes with a SPST
> A 14/2 is ran to both boxes supplying 120v to each.
> A 14/3 is ran between for the travelers and a neutral.
> A 14/2 is ran to the light controlled by the 3ways from the far end box.
> 
> Now, if you hooked up all the neutrals in the far end box you get a paralleled neutral between the boxes.


If right was right they'd mark the white wire in the 14/3 and use it as the common on the 3 way, not the neutral.


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## backstay

Arrow3030 said:


> No, same circuit. I'll try explaining better.
> Example:
> A set of 3ways are on opposite ends of a hall.
> Both 3ways are in 2 gang boxes with a SPST
> A 14/2 is ran to both boxes supplying 120v to each.
> A 14/3 is ran between for the travelers and a neutral.
> A 14/2 is ran to the light controlled by the 3ways from the far end box.
> 
> Now, if you hooked up all the neutrals in the far end box you get a paralleled neutral between the boxes.


I don't see many 3 ways in boxes together like that.


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## hardworkingstiff

backstay said:


> I don't see many 3 ways in boxes together like that.


A 3-way and single-pole in the same box (at 2 locations)? Seems like that might actually be pretty common. Either you or I are not understanding the post you replied to.


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## theJcK

Im not understanding either.. same circuit right?..


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## macmikeman

If say a long hallway or something where a three gang at each end, with 3way switches running lights, roped in nm cable, and the three cables are run near to each other and fed from same circuit, then to me no problem or code violation that I know of. Running to separate switch boxes and now you have a chance at emf running around the area, but still no code violation if nm cable is being used. It might make a volt tic go somewhat crazy, and ring on near contact to drywall or wood doors like I have witnessed before on similar situations where they ran two wire cable for travelers in dwellings. Either way, it is a wiring method I don't care for, don't wire like that myself, and fart in the general direction of those who do.


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## hardworkingstiff

theJcK said:


> Im not understanding either.. same circuit right?..


I thought it was, but if it's not, it's a bigger no/no.


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## tersus

It seems like the subject here shouldn't be methods of wiring 3-ways, but instead the proper way to rough-in a circuit. If you're paying attention to what you're doing and aren't just running romex from opening to opening aimlessly, then it's likely you won't have to think about which neutrals to tie together/isolate. Based on arrow3030's description with the hall light and the two 2-gangs, if I'm making up those boxes, I'm not using the 14-3 to carry a neutral (since I've got each box fed with a 14-2). The 3-way opposite from the one which has the 14-2 to the light is going to be my 'dead-end' 3-way--problem solved, no chance of tying together neutrals that shouldn't be. As for the subject of wiring 3ways, my choice is to keep the neutral out of the 14-3--which means a 'dead-end' 3way on one end, and in the other 3way opening I've got power and the switch leg to the light(s). I realize the issue with this is, if you want to be a stickler, is having a white wire that's not a neutral, plus, you don't have a neutral at one of the 3ways (code now is that there has to be a neutral at each switch, or at least a means of getting one there without having to tear up a finished surface to do so).


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## telsa

Arrow3030 said:


> I was splicing a ground up construction today which I haven't done in a while. I noticed the other electricians were putting all the neutrals together for three/four ways in every box, 3 wire was ran between each set of switches.
> I'm pretty sure this makes a *series parallel* on the neutral and is a code violation. I'm also pretty sure this is a common practice.
> My questions are, do you keep your neutral clean and how bad could the EMF really be if not?


You must mean parallel... just parallel.

Without a wiring schematic your post is too thin to read your mind.

You seem to be describing (A,B) switching for 3-ways -- which is mandated by Title 24 here in California.

But, you're talking Romex values.

Please post a schematic -- as it's plain that you over rate our mind reading skills.


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## emtnut

tersus said:


> It seems like the subject here shouldn't be methods of wiring 3-ways, but instead the proper way to rough-in a circuit. If you're paying attention to what you're doing and aren't just running romex from opening to opening aimlessly, then it's likely you won't have to think about which neutrals to tie together/isolate. Based on arrow3030's description with the hall light and the two 2-gangs, if I'm making up those boxes, I'm not using the 14-3 to carry a neutral (since I've got each box fed with a 14-2). The 3-way opposite from the one which has the 14-2 to the light is going to be my 'dead-end' 3-way--problem solved, no chance of tying together neutrals that shouldn't be. As for the subject of wiring 3ways, my choice is to keep the neutral out of the 14-3--which means a 'dead-end' 3way on one end, and in the other 3way opening I've got power and the switch leg to the light(s). I realize the issue with this is, if you want to be a stickler, is having a white wire that's not a neutral, plus, you don't have a neutral at one of the 3ways (code now is that there has to be a neutral at each switch, or at least a means of getting one there without having to tear up a finished surface to do so).


Not familiar with your code down there, but I thought I read somewhere that 3 way switches were exempt from needing the neutral ?


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## Year_Zero

tersus said:


> Based on arrow3030's description with the hall light and the two 2-gangs, if I'm making up those boxes, I'm not using the 14-3 to carry a neutral (since I've got each box fed with a 14-2). The 3-way opposite from the one which has the 14-2 to the light is going to be my 'dead-end' 3-way--problem solved, no chance of tying together neutrals that shouldn't be. As for the subject of wiring 3ways, my choice is to keep the neutral out of the 14-3--which means a 'dead-end' 3way on one end, and in the other 3way opening I've got power and the switch leg to the light(s). I realize the issue with this is, if you want to be a stickler, is having a white wire that's not a neutral, plus, you don't have a neutral at one of the 3ways (code now is that there has to be a neutral at each switch, or at least a means of getting one there without having to tear up a finished surface to do so).


If I'm reading you right you're saying take 3 wire to 2nd box and dead end it, bring back the switched common, send it to the light with 2 wire, tie all the neutrals and hots together and take a separate 2 wire to the second box for the separate light on the single pole.

I like it. Especially since you didn't take the travelers through the ceiling box like a cheapass and make it a pain for everyone else to troubleshoot.


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## chicken steve

emtnut said:


> Not familiar with your code down there, but I thought I read somewhere that 3 way switches were exempt from needing the neutral ?



Well you'd be right ENut, posted for your (et all) viewing pleasure>>>>



*404.2 Switch Connections. *
*(A)* Three-Way and Four-Way Switches. Three-way and 
four-way switches shall be wired so that all switching is 
done only in the ungrounded circuit conductor. Where in 
metal raceways or metal-armored cables, wiring between 
switches and outlets shall be in accordance with 300.20(A). 

_*Exception: Switch loops shall not require a grounded 
conductor.*_ 

*(B) * _blah blah blah...._


*(C)* Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. The grounded 
circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be 
provided at the location where switches control Jighting 
loads that are supplied by a grounded general-purpose 
branch circuit for other than the following: 
(I) Where conductors enter the box enclosing the switch 
through a raceway, provided that the raceway is large 
enough for all contained conductors, including a 
grounded conductor 
(2) Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for 
the installation of an additional or replacement cable 
without removing finish materials 
(3) Where snap switches with integral enclosures cOElply 
with 300.15(E) 
(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or 
bathroom 
(5) Where multiple switch locations control the same light-
ing load such that the entire floor area of the room or 
space is visible from the single or combined switch 
locations 
(6) Where lighting in the area is controlled by automatic 
means 
(7) Where a switch controls a receptacle load 

*Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded conductor is to complete a circuit path for electronic light-
ing control devices. *


404.2 (C) is fairly recent , of note would be the _'informational note'_ which evidences the dimmer cabals influence in the NEC

~CS~


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## chicken steve

telsa said:


> You must mean parallel... just parallel.
> 
> Without a wiring schematic your post is too thin to read your mind.
> 
> You seem to be describing (A,B) switching for 3-ways -- which is mandated by Title 24 here in California.
> 
> But, you're talking Romex values.
> 
> Please post a schematic -- as it's plain that you over rate our mind reading skills.


Lots of ways, but i would encourage the *kiss *method for noobs>>>>










~CS~


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## telsa

chicken steve said:


> Lots of ways, but i would encourage the *kiss *method for noobs>>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Agreed.


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## Arrow3030

Hope this clears up any confusion. 
Blue is neutral. The blue and purple blocks are wagos or wire wire nuts.


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## chicken steve

To be honest, methinks you've a ring circuit there Arrow:whistling2:...are you working with anyone from the UK....? ~CS~


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## Arrow3030

What's a ring circuit? I really don't know any of the guys on this crew but I doubt they're from UK


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## BBS

The very first reply still has your answer. You have a parallel path on the neutral.

If you were up here I'd say run the feed from the panel to the 2 gang box and dead-end the single 3-way, but I believe that'd be a NEC violation (?).

Use two separate wire nuts for the neutrals in the 2 gang box.


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## Arrow3030

BBS said:


> The very first reply still has your answer. You have a parallel path on the neutral.
> 
> If you were up here I'd say run the feed from the panel to the 2 gang box and dead-end the single 3-way, but I believe that'd be a NEC violation (?).
> 
> Use two separate wire nuts for the neutrals in the 2 gang box.


I agree. Post #2 was pretty exact. I'm not sure I'm willing to stir the pot on this job as I'm a temp coming in to someone else's territory. 

I followed the advice given in your last stanza as I felt it was the most professional way of doing the make up. 

It's also the way I do make up. 

I'm not a fan of dead end 3-ways. I like my neutral to be with my hot.


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## sayn3ver

You have a single feed in one two gang box with two 3 ways correct? 

You bring two 3 wires over to a second 2 gang box. The switch legs for these switches leave the second box going to their respective lightinf loads, Correct? 

My understanding is the neutrals should be kept separate in the second box. Ive reread that code section many times. I still think it's a grey area for exception 5 by dead ending 3ways with the neutral required at the switch locations. Is the area in an open concept type home? Loft living where its all technically one room? Warehouse? 

Obviously if each 3 way pairing was fed by a different circuit you'd want to label and separate your neutrals for afci reasons. Same for gfci reasons.


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## Arrow3030

That's close enough to exactly what I was describing. All the important parts anyway. 
The code violation is that if, in the second box, the neutrals are spliced together a parallel path is made.


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## Hippie

I always keep each switch path separate. Neutrals are only tied together where the circuit branches out. Ive seen what youre talking about done a lot though and I dont like it when I do. In fact it bothers me almost as much as when I find UF cable used throughout a house with 3" of wire in the box. But theres plenty of other things that bother me just as much or more. Too many ignorant hands on this stuff IMO


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## RIVETER

Arrow3030 said:


> I was splicing a ground up construction today which I haven't done in a while. I noticed the other electricians were putting all the neutrals together for three/four ways in every box, 3 wire was ran between each set of switches.
> I'm pretty sure this makes a series parallel on the neutral and is a code violation. I'm also pretty sure this is a common practice.
> My questions are, do you keep your neutral clean and how bad could the EMF really be if not?


With 70 posts I have to assume that you are fairly new to the trade and there is not a thing wrong with that. So, you are here to learn...right? A neutral is needed at each switch box in order to accommodate a future install of a lighted switch, etc . No other reason. Conductors for a three way switch are run, as you say, for proper operation.


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## Arrow3030

I was hoping this thread would take a different turn. I was more interested in finding out if anyone thought it was a big enough deal to tell people with more tenure than me that they're doing it wrong.


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## RIVETER

Arrow3030 said:


> I was hoping this thread would take a different turn. I was more interested in finding out if anyone thought it was a big enough deal to tell people with more tenure than me that they're doing it wrong.


It is never wrong to stand your ground if you believe you are correct. As far as "tenure" goes, I have more than most.


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## Arrow3030

When I said, "people with more tenure..." I wasn't directing it to anyone on this forum but rather the people I worked with for that one day.


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## A Little Short

Arrow3030 said:


> I was hoping this thread would take a different turn. I was more interested in finding out if anyone thought it was a big enough deal to tell people with more tenure than me that they're doing it wrong.



I don't think this would be something I would stir the pot over. Now if they ask you your opinion I would tell them.
I honestly don't think any problems, other than maybe troubleshooting, GFCI, AFCI, will be caused by that wiring method.


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## hardworkingstiff

sayn3ver said:


> You have a single feed in one two gang box with two 3 ways correct?


My understanding from the OP's posts is that your statement is incorrect.

I took it that each 2-gang box has a 3-way (that work together) and a single-pole switch (one in each box). 

There is a feed into each box (whether there is a feed out I don't think was clarified and really doesn't matter to the discussion), a 3-wire for the set of 3-ways and the switch legs to the lights being controlled.


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## hardworkingstiff

Arrow3030 said:


> I was hoping this thread would take a different turn. I was more interested in finding out if anyone thought it was a big enough deal to tell people with more tenure than me that they're doing it wrong.


It's all in the presentation. Maybe ask someone with tenure how that type of installation is not a violation of 310.10(H)?


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## sayn3ver

hardworkingstiff said:


> My understanding from the OP's posts is that your statement is incorrect.
> 
> I took it that each 2-gang box has a 3-way (that work together) and a single-pole switch (one in each box).
> 
> There is a feed into each box (whether there is a feed out I don't think was clarified and really doesn't matter to the discussion), a 3-wire for the set of 3-ways and the switch legs to the lights being controlled.




Just saw his paper drawing above. Essitianlly the same situation I was describing. I'd still keep the neutrals separated. One extra splice or possible parallel path in the circuit. I don't think it's the end of the world. Running a two wire would eliminate the extra neutral but then introduce emf and another code violation. 

Because it's not a parallel path going back to the panel (important for fault clearing and safety for future electricians doing work) I don't see an issue persay. But I'm still pretty green. 

I think this is a situation the code writers didn't really consider when requiring the neutral at the switch locations. I was told the intent of this code was to get manufacturers away from making oc sensors and other devices that were getting away with using the "allowable leakage current" allowed on the egc as a make shift neutral. Kind of a quid pro quo so to speak.


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## hardworkingstiff

sayn3ver said:


> Just saw his paper drawing above.





Arrow3030 said:


> Hope this clears up any confusion.
> Blue is neutral. The blue and purple blocks are wagos or wire wire nuts.





Arrow3030 said:


> No, same circuit. I'll try explaining better.
> Example:
> A set of 3ways are on opposite ends of a hall.
> *Both 3ways are in 2 gang boxes with a SPST*
> A 14/2 is ran to both boxes supplying 120v to each.
> A 14/3 is ran between for the travelers and a neutral.
> A 14/2 is ran to the light controlled by the 3ways from the far end box.
> 
> Now, if you hooked up all the neutrals in the far end box you get a paralleled neutral between the boxes.


It appears to me that the "drawing" and the written description do not match up.


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## Arrow3030

Hippie said:


> I always keep each switch path separate. Neutrals are only tied together where the circuit branches out. Ive seen what youre talking about done a lot though and I dont like it when I do. In fact it bothers me...


Hippie totally understood what I was asking. There are a few others. I like the term switch path. That's really what I'm asking about.


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## chicken steve

Arrow3030 said:


> When I said, "people with more tenure..." I wasn't directing it to anyone on this forum but rather the people I worked with for that one day.


Actually, there's been some phenomenal epiphanies here Arrow....

~CS~


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## chicken steve

Some time ago , the old timers used to call the common the '_heel_' , represented by them pivoting their foot back & forth on their heel....

As long as the '_line_' was on one heel, and the _'load_' on the other , the configuration didn't really matter....

The noodles weren't the issue then, so much as they are now....

~CS~


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## LGLS

Fact of the matter is, neutral splicing shouldn't have been part of the finish work anyway. When I roughed houses, all the splicing was done then. 3-ways were indicated where 2 travelers, both stripped, would be wrapped by the common, and whoever was doing the switch and receptacle didn't have to figure anything out. In the event that a hot feed for both a 3-way and a single pole occured, it would be extra long, wrapped around the travelers and then paired with the single pole switchleg.

IMHO, the finish crew shouldn't have to be wasting time trying to figure out how the rough electrician did the circuiting.


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## Devildogwillbur

*weird 3-way help*

I figured out my question


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## 480sparky

Devildogwillbur said:


> I wanted to add a switch at the base of the stairs so we can shut off the light when we are downstairs. The wiring in this house is ****, and needs a whole rewire, but I am a disabled Veteran and unable to do a whole house rewire so I am just going to do a temp job until I can afford to pay someone to do the whole house.
> 
> The switch at the top of the stairs has power in, the branches off down stairs and up to the celling light. I want to replace the top switch with a 3way and add a 3way at the bottom. Here is an image of what I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to run it, but SW1 acts as a master switch, SW2 only works when SW1 is on. I might have the right idea, and just need to swap 2 wires to make it right, but I want to get a second opinion on how it could be wired correctly.
> 
> One option I could do, if I had more 2 wire, would be to run one between the two lights, but I dont have enough wire currently to do that so I would like to use what I have now.
> 
> could someone help me with a diagram on the proper way to run this? Thanks



Sorry, you can't just add two 3-ways to existing 1p wiring and make it work. You need to _add _wiring.

I understand your dilemma, but this isn't a DIY forum.


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## Devildogwillbur

I've done electrical before, I have already ran 3 wire. I figured out what I did wrong and it is working the way I wanted it to work. I already removed my previous post prior to you responding. Thanks for the unhelpful response.


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## backstay

Devildogwillbur said:


> I've done electrical before, I have already ran 3 wire. I figured out what I did wrong and it is working the way I wanted it to work. I already removed my previous post prior to you responding. Thanks for the unhelpful response.


He does that a lot.


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## backstay

IslandGuy said:


> Fact of the matter is, neutral splicing shouldn't have been part of the finish work anyway. When I roughed houses, all the splicing was done then. 3-ways were indicated where 2 travelers, both stripped, would be wrapped by the common, and whoever was doing the switch and receptacle didn't have to figure anything out. In the event that a hot feed for both a 3-way and a single pole occured, it would be extra long, wrapped around the travelers and then paired with the single pole switchleg.
> 
> IMHO, the finish crew shouldn't have to be wasting time trying to figure out how the rough electrician did the circuiting.


When you say "common", do you mean the "hot"? I wire the boxes so you just need strippers, devices and the wall plates. No figuring needs to be done at trim out.


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## 480sparky

Devildogwillbur said:


> I've done electrical before, I have already ran 3 wire. I figured out what I did wrong and it is working the way I wanted it to work. I already removed my previous post prior to you responding. Thanks for the unhelpful response.



OK, now that it works,.............. is it done correctly and is it _safe_?



backstay said:


> He does that a lot.


You're right.......... 'cuz this is a DIY question.


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## PlugsAndLights

Arrow3030 said:


> No, same circuit. I'll try explaining better.
> Example:
> A set of 3ways are on opposite ends of a hall.
> Both 3ways are in 2 gang boxes with a SPST
> A 14/2 is ran to both boxes supplying 120v to each.
> A 14/3 is ran between for the travelers and a neutral.
> A 14/2 is ran to the light controlled by the 3ways from the far end box.
> 
> Now, if you hooked up all the neutrals in the far end box you get a paralleled neutral between the boxes.


Ahhh, now this explanation I understand!
So, I keep the neutrals separate in situations like this. Can't claim 
it's important. But I do consider it the right way to do it. 
P&L


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## Jarp Habib

Home run box i take 12/3 down the wall to the first 3way (HTrTrNG), 12/4 down the hall to the second 3way (HTrTrSwNG), 12/2 (SwNG) daisy chains down the hall for the lights. Home run box likely gets a power pack for occupancy sensor as well. If the other end of the hall gets multiple switches I'm probably going to run conduit. Hell, probably going to be conduit anyways. 

The convenience of drop ceiling. It would be weird thinking about how to do literally everything without accessible boxes everywhere.


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## Meadow

Power in, white to the first 2 way, red and black as travelers, white back down to the first box and hooked up to the black going out.


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## papaotis

IMHO, one thing that SHOULD be a standard in the NEC!


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## 480sparky

papaotis said:


> IMHO, one thing that SHOULD be a standard in the NEC!


Then make a proposal for the '20.


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## papaotis

ok, lets do this! PM me with your way and see if we can come up with a proposal!


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## 480sparky

papaotis said:


> ok, lets do this! PM me with your way and see if we can come up with a proposal!


I don't have 'a' way. I use several, all of which are legal.


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## Meadow

papaotis said:


> IMHO, one thing that SHOULD be a standard in the NEC!



No, I mean yes it would easier for us but at the same time it would not make anything safer. The NEC should be bare bones safety. Not any other objective.


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## Meadow

480sparky said:


> I don't have 'a' way. I use several, all of which are legal.



I think the requirement to remark whites as hot should be dropped. Anyone who takes the cover off anything should know a white has a good chance of being live... even a 120 volt circuit. If the neutral breaks under load it will be very live. So black tape is meaningless.


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## 480sparky

AcidTrip said:


> I think the requirement to remark whites as hot should be dropped. Anyone who takes the cover off anything should know a white has a good chance of being live... even a 120 volt circuit. If the neutral breaks under load it will be very live. So black tape is meaningless.



I agree. Anyone working with lighting and switches who can't understand a white might be hot shouldn't be in the trade.

I think that change was one of the stupidest 'dumbing-down' acts in the history of the NEC. All probably because some handy-hack got zapped and started to cry about it.


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## Meadow

480sparky said:


> I agree. Anyone working with lighting and switches who can't understand a white might be hot shouldn't be in the trade.
> 
> I think that change was one of the stupidest 'dumbing-down' acts in the history of the NEC. All probably because some handy-hack got zapped and started to cry about it.



_BUT i THOUGHT IN THE WHITE WIRE ELECTRONS WENT TO GROUND INSTEAD!! :vs_cry::vs_cry:_


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## Hippie

480sparky said:


> I agree. Anyone working with lighting and switches who can't understand a white might be hot shouldn't be in the trade.
> 
> I think that change was one of the stupidest 'dumbing-down' acts in the history of the NEC. All probably because some handy-hack got zapped and started to cry about it.



When you see a white tied in to a black or multiple blacks that instantly tells you its a switch loop. anyone who doesnt know this is ******ed. That is also the reason you dont use the black in the loop cable as the constant hot, that way you dont have a white wire that may be off at the time and appear to be a neutral (to the guy who doesnt take the time to use a meter to check what hes tying into first) lol


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## nrp3

Not like this:


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## macmikeman

nrp3 said:


> Not like this:


Oh my Lord, somebody painted that switch........


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## skittles

nrp3 said:


> Not like this:


Hmmmmm.... you mean this isn't how it's done?


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## nrp3

I don't know how this ever worked. All 12 ga and nasty small metal boxes. Fed from here 12-3 to lighting and 12-3 to other side dead end. Bad dimmer as well.


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## Majewski

Obviously the tape kept it from failing.


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## papaotis

yes, tape on the wirenut ensures a safe install of something that wasnt done right in the first place!


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## Majewski

papaotis said:


> yes, tape on the wirenut ensures a safe install of something that wasnt done right in the first place!


It's fine. Those yellow nuts are awesome.


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## skittles

Majewski said:


> It's fine. Those yellow nuts are awesome.


Seriously? I guess I'm pretty spoiled as far as wire nuts go.


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## Majewski

skittles said:


> Seriously? I guess I'm pretty spoiled as far as wire nuts go.


No not seriously. The yellow ones suck dirty donuts. :jester:


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## Monkeyboy

skittles said:


> Seriously? I guess I'm pretty spoiled as far as wire nuts go.


Those are great. Not cheap though.


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## MechanicalDVR

Monkeyboy said:


> Those are great. Not cheap though.


You get what you pay for, I tend to buy Ideals but I've never bought bags of chinese generics I've seen some guys use.


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## Majewski

I like 3ms and ideals.


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## Monkeyboy

MechanicalDVR said:


> You get what you pay for, I tend to buy Ideals but I've never bought bags of chinese generics I've seen some guys use.


I am definitely willing to pay extra for quality. The more comfortable the better. Twisting those all day gets old.


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## MechanicalDVR

Monkeyboy said:


> I am definitely willing to pay extra for quality. The more comfortable the better. Twisting those all day gets old.


I like to use the little Ideal driver to tighten them used in a hand driver, I've also used the little star type wire nut wrench but it's a PIA. Last thing we need is a carpal tunnel injury or something along those lines.


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## flyboy

MechanicalDVR said:


> I like to use the little Ideal driver to tighten them used in a hand driver, I've also used the little star type wire nut wrench but it's a PIA. Last thing we need is a carpal tunnel injury or something along those lines.


My father taught me to laugh at people that used those things. You can guess what we called people that used them. 

Today, at 65, as I write this, I have a constant on going pain in the knuckles of my fingers and backside of the hand that goes right up my arm to my armpit.

I wish I'd used those type of tools, wore a back brace and used ear plugs. I'm paying for it now.


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## MechanicalDVR

flyboy said:


> My father taught me to laugh at people that used those things. You can guess what we called people that used them.
> 
> Today, at 65, as I write this, I have a constant on going pain in the knuckles of my fingers and backside of the hand that goes right up my arm to my armpit.
> 
> I wish I'd used those type of tools, wore a back brace and used ear plugs. I'm paying for it now.


It was a new helper that brought one to my attention, he used it in a drill and had issues with it. I found it worked well in a hand driver. I also recall the pain in my fingers following a full day of wiring after age 40. Yeah I do recall 'gimmick' guys being called candy asses or pansies. I'm not much younger than you but the damage I've done to my body is 90% all on me. If only we knew some things sooner.


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## Majewski

flyboy said:


> My father taught me to laugh at people that used those things. You can guess what we called people that used them.
> 
> Today, at 65, as I write this, I have a constant on going pain in the knuckles of my fingers and backside of the hand that goes right up my arm to my armpit.
> 
> I wish I'd used those type of tools, wore a back brace and used ear plugs. I'm paying for it now.


You're 65!? You don't type a day over 40.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> You're 65!? You don't type a day over 40.


LOL, funny the impressions we get of others.


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## skittles

MechanicalDVR said:


> It was a new helper that brought one to my attention, he used it in a drill and had issues with it. I found it worked well in a hand driver. I also recall the pain in my fingers following a full day of wiring after age 40. Yeah I do recall 'gimmick' guys being called candy asses or pansies. I'm not much younger than you but the damage I've done to my body is 90% all on me. If only we knew some things sooner.


Did you actually get to use a "bad" word in this forum? First time I've seen that. I was starting to believe none of you guys were actually electricians, lol


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## Majewski

We don't ****ing use ****ty words here. Just happy, pretty lameass words.


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## MechanicalDVR

skittles said:


> Did you actually get to use a "bad" word in this forum? First time I've seen that. I was starting to believe none of you guys were actually electricians, lol


I guess I did, maybe the program thought it fit well in the context of things.


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## B-Nabs

It never censors the word ass


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## Majewski

Because of the animal?


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## B-Nabs

I don't know why, I've just noticed it doesn't.


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## Majewski

Most automated censors don't...or that's my opinion at least. I suppose you could manually add restrictions.


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## B-Nabs

I bet it's because the censoring algorithm targets the combinations of letters that comprise censored words regardless of the other letters they are surrounded by. The letter sequence "ass" is common enough that this would eliminate too many other words, ones like: pass, passion, passable, passive, bass, lass, lassie, brass, crass, you get the idea. Just my theory anyway. Also ass is pretty inoffensive. Watch, now I'll get banned.


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## Majewski

B-Nabs said:


> I bet it's because the censoring algorithm targets the combinations of letters that comprise censored words regardless of the other letters they are surrounded by. The letter sequence "ass" is common enough that this would eliminate too many other words, ones like: pass, passion, passable, passive, bass, lass, lassie, brass, crass, you get the idea. Just my theory anyway. Also ass is pretty inoffensive. Watch, now I'll get banned.


Only an ass would ban you.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> Only an ass would ban you.


Doubt it, I think the 'ass' has quit the forum.


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## Majewski

MechanicalDVR said:


> Doubt it, I think the 'ass' has quit the forum.


Gee golly I hope so!


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> Gee golly I hope so!


Me too, I hated being banned over NOTHING.


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## Majewski

MechanicalDVR said:


> Me too, I hated being banned over NOTHING.


Lol. I used to get banned in computer games.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> Lol. I used to get banned in computer games.


Never done that.


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## Majewski

I like video games.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> I like video games.


When I was recouping from spinal surgery my nephew gave me a game system with Maxx Payne and Grand Theft Auto, I played GTA non stop til I finished way too many levels to recall. I was like obsessed for like 3 days straight.


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## Majewski

I love max Payne and gta lol


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## johntempleman

3 way neutral should not be combined this i am certain about. Although i myself haven't seen what my electrician has cooked inside the wiring.


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## MechanicalDVR

johntempleman said:


> 3 way neutral should not be combined this i am certain about. Although i myself haven't seen what *my electrician* has cooked inside the wiring.


Are you a contractor or apprentice?


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## 99cents

Haven't paid attention to this thread but run a hot to one switch and your switch leg from the other. Three wire in between. Keep your rough-in simple. Less head scratching during finishing. Make your splices in your device boxes so you're not standing on a ladder scratching your head.


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## MechanicalDVR

3 ways were more a 30s things for me.


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## johntempleman

MechanicalDVR said:


> Are you a contractor or apprentice?


Well I am more of a self learner and knowledge seeker who at times practices such tasks so as to get some excitement out of my job.


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## MechanicalDVR

johntempleman said:


> Well I am more of a self learner and knowledge seeker who at times practices such tasks so as to get some excitement out of my job.


That can be admirable. How old are you?


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## Majewski

johntempleman said:


> Well I am more of a self learner and knowledge seeker who at times practices such tasks so as to get some excitement out of my job.


Reminds me of Dirty Jobs. Being bored in a mundane job sucks, I can understand trying to wet the beak in other areas.


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> Reminds me of Dirty Jobs. Being bored in a mundane job sucks, I can understand trying to wet the beak in other areas.


*Knowledge is power!*


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## johntempleman

MechanicalDVR said:


> That can be admirable. How old are you?


I am 21 and growing. Hope there was something that could make the time run slower.


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## johntempleman

Majewski said:


> Reminds me of Dirty Jobs. Being bored in a mundane job sucks, I can understand trying to wet the beak in other areas.


Exactly Majewski, there is nothing more comforting and exciting than talking with people having similar interests. It is like cherry on the iceCream cone. We get our job done and with that get a lot of ideas to experiment with as well.


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## Majewski

God, the enthusiasm is radiating from you! Awesome dude, keep it up!


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## MechanicalDVR

Majewski said:


> God, the enthusiasm is radiating from you! Awesome dude, keep it up!


*I was like that when I was young, tried to become a doctor but the cost of special tools to become a brain surgeon at home was too high so I fell back into my second doctorly interest, gynecology on the home study program. Just call me Goldfinger.*


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## telsa

MechanicalDVR said:


> *I was like that when I was young, tried to become a doctor but the cost of special tools to become a brain surgeon at home was too high so I fell back into my second doctorly interest, gynecology on the home study program. Just call me *Goldfinger*.*


Color correction necessary:

_Excuse me_ doctor, but such research is why and how the pinky finger got its name. :thumbsup:


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## telsa

MechanicalDVR said:


> 3 ways were more a 30s things for me.


That dates you, then.


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## MechanicalDVR

telsa said:


> Color correction necessary:
> 
> _Excuse me_ doctor, but such research is why and how the pinky finger got its name. :thumbsup:


*In the circles I've been in it's known as* *"The Shocker"*


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## MechanicalDVR

telsa said:


> That dates you, then.



*What can I say? I had so much more energy back then......
*


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## A Little Short

MechanicalDVR said:


> *I was like that when I was young, tried to become a doctor but the cost of special tools to become a brain surgeon at home was too high so I fell back into my second doctorly interest, gynecology on the home study program. Just call me Goldfinger.*


That was a good choice as there is a lot of openings in that field!:thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR

A Little Short said:


> That was a good choice as there is a lot of openings in that field!:thumbsup:


Yes indeed and I tried like hell to fill them all.

I only wish I could have gone all the way and become accredited, I'd gladly have put in all the effort and worked above and beyond buried elbow deep in my study materials.


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