# Old t-12 ballasts?



## Drivewizard

I have a 48 x 36 ft shop, lighting is done by a lot of old t-12 fixtures. I think they are around 1980 vintage. I assume they have the old style ballasts. I got them for free about 8 years ago when a local High School was upgrading their fixtures. 
I go thru a lot of bulbs, and was wondering if these old ballasts could be replaced with a newer style that are more efficent, or won't burn through bulbs as fast.

I really don't want to change out the whole fixture, it would be easier for me to change the ballasts, if that is still possible?

My background: 25 years in Commercial/Ind HVAC, working on millivolts to 4160 V. Just clueless on the latest lighting technology.


----------



## cdnelectrician

What size of lamps are they? 8 foot, 4 foot? Are they high output lamps?


----------



## wildleg

some examples of lighting available (other than HO) (basically T5 or T8):
http://www.aeilighting.com/aeiproducts.htm


description of T5:
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightingAnswers/lat5/abstract.asp


----------



## Drivewizard

cdnelectrician said:


> What size of lamps are they? 8 foot, 4 foot? Are they high output lamps?


 They are 4 ft, some have 2 bulbs and others have 3.
If memory serves, they use FCW40 bulbs.
I do not believe they are high output, but then again I am not sure what determines "High Output". 

I think I'll just ask some Electrician Buddies, or a local supply house. 
It is tough asking a question, or answering one on-line in writing. Originally what seems like a simple question results in 2-3 more questions. Made worse when I don't have all the facts. But I appreciate the effort to assist me. 
Just had some time to kill while watching Football, thought I would give it a try. 
I'll take one of my old ballasts in and see if it can be upgraded. 
Thanks for the replies.


----------



## crazymurph

A T-8 Ballast is about $15 and the tombstones are $2.00 each. That would be $23.00/fixture. And then you have the cost of the lamps.


----------



## John Valdes

Take down old 4' fixtures and discard whenever a ballast goes out. Pick out new fixtures and install. Personally I would not use 4' fixtures in your application. I always use 98" with whatever ballast it comes with. Most likely today they (ballast) will be electronic and cost about $50.00 each. The fixtures can be purchased for less money. Last time I had a 98" lamp ballast go out, it was less expensive to just replace the complete fixture. It will be more apparent with 4' fixtures. It sucks, but what can you do?


----------



## Lighting Retro

Hello John, I believe you are paying way too much for electronic ballasts. It's difficult to find one for $50--way too high. Must be an ultra retail outlet. 

For the 4' fixtures you can most definitely change the ballasts from old style magnetic to electronic. There is no need to change tombstones, as they are both made to support bi-pin lamps. (Both T12 and T8 in 4') You should move to T8 lamps at the same time as the ballast change, and you will find that the lamps and ballasts will last MUCH longer than what you currently have. Good luck!


----------



## scruffy

yep go for the T8 ballast and lamp retro than to get new fixtures as for the tombstones i'd only change the one's that are needed as the old ones if are in good condition will be fine for use of the newer lamps.


----------



## user4818

Lighting Retro said:


> You should move to T8 lamps at the same time as the ballast change, and you will find that the lamps and ballasts will last MUCH longer than what you currently have. Good luck!


I must disagree with you here. I have routinely replaced magnetic ballasts that are 30 or more years old. I have zero faith whatsoever that a modern electronic ballast will last anywhere near that long. The oldest I have seen is a bunch of first generation Motorola electronic ballast about 10-11 years old and at that point many of them were failing and needed replacement.


----------



## Lighting Retro

Some of the old stuff kicks for some time no doubt, but they are all moving to electronic. Even T12 is moving to electronic on replacements. The electronic ballasts now have warranties of 5 years, and any magnetic left typically have 2 years. From a new install stand point and company warranty, it's a no brainer if you will. 

One way or the other, electronic is all that is going to be there. And if that is true, it's time to go T8. No reason to buy electronic T12.


----------



## Southeast Power

Drivewizard said:


> I have a 48 x 36 ft shop, lighting is done by a lot of old t-12 fixtures. I think they are around 1980 vintage. I assume they have the old style ballasts. I got them for free about 8 years ago when a local High School was upgrading their fixtures.
> I go thru a lot of bulbs, and was wondering if these old ballasts could be replaced with a newer style that are more efficent, or won't burn through bulbs as fast.
> 
> I really don't want to change out the whole fixture, it would be easier for me to change the ballasts, if that is still possible?
> 
> My background: 25 years in Commercial/Ind HVAC, working on millivolts to 4160 V. Just clueless on the latest lighting technology.


I would give these a try. 
http://www.thegreensavingscompany.com/t5-retrofit-kit
You might be able to used half the lamps you are using now. And you can disconnect the ballast.


----------



## Lighting Retro

There may not be a reason to buy a T5 retrofit kit over T8. The lumens are not hugely different in a non HO environment, and the cost difference between T8 and T5 is very noticeable. T8 also comes in a 28 watt, so the cost for a T5 retro is usually not justified. 

You can move to a 2 Lamp T8 kit from a 4 Lamp T12 fixture with equal or better light if you install a reflector. We've priced it both ways, and the only application we've been able to justify in T5 are HO lamps in High Bays. I would be curious as to if you have found different results. There are times you could use the extra lumens from a design perspective, but that seems to be so rare....


----------



## ricoreece1

I'm pretty sure a T8 lamp will not match up with T12 High Output tombstones,so you might have to replace that as well. Might be a good idea to take an existing tombstone with you to the supply house and make sure its gonna work and if its good, all you would have to change is the ballast.


----------



## Lighting Retro

If the previous lamp is HO T12, a standard T8 will not fit the sockets. I did not catch that they might have been referring to HO since they are mostly used for signs and freezers in our neck of the woods.


----------



## bobelectric

Phase in new 2 lamp,t8,surface fixtures,that will carry you into your golden days. (With diffusers).


----------



## MDShunk

Lighting retro, I know it's your business to promote lighting retrofits, but I can't pretend for even a second that the electronic ballasts have a long life. Comparing warranties is apples to oranges. It was quite normal to expect a 20-30 year life out of a magnetic ballast. I have yet to have a replacement T12 electronic ballast make it past the 3-year mark. Bold statement, eh? Well, it's true. Many out of the box failures, and many don't make it past the 6-month mark. I've had pretty decent luck with entire new fixtures, but when replacing a magnetic T12 with an electronic T12 ballast.... well, I almost hate to do it. Even during T8 conversions, even if I change the tombstones to eliminate any possible loose tombstones drawing high current, the lifespan is just not there. 

I agree with PeterD, however. The first Motorola electronic ballasts seemed to have a pretty good lifespan. I switched to them for a spell, favoring them over my normal Advance, but they too seemed to decline in lifespan. 

My kingdom for a magnetic ballast again...


----------



## MDShunk

Lighting Retro said:


> If the previous lamp is HO T12, a standard T8 will not fit the sockets. I did not catch that they might have been referring to HO since they are mostly used for signs and freezers in our neck of the woods.


In northern climates, shops that are unheated or just slightly heated will normally feature HO or VHO lamps if they're T12 or T14 sized. I changed all my F96T12's in my shop to 96" T8's. So far, so good. They lamp up pretty well when it's cold (I only keep the shop about 45-50 in the winter). I added a couple 6-lamp T5 freebies in a couple darker spots. They're the cat's ass, but expensive to buy if I was ever to want to buy more.


----------



## jwjrw

MDShunk said:


> Lighting retro, I know it's your business to promote lighting retrofits, but I can't pretend for even a second that the electronic ballasts have a long life. Comparing warranties is apples to oranges. It was quite normal to expect a 20-30 year life out of a magnetic ballast. I have yet to have a replacement T12 electronic ballast make it past the 3-year mark. Bold statement, eh? Well, it's true. Many out of the box failures, and many don't make it past the 6-month mark. I've had pretty decent luck with entire new fixtures, but when replacing a magnetic T12 with an electronic T12 ballast.... well, I almost hate to do it. Even during T8 conversions, even if I change the tombstones to eliminate any possible loose tombstones drawing high current, the lifespan is just not there.
> 
> I agree with PeterD, however. The first Motorola electronic ballasts seemed to have a pretty good lifespan. I switched to them for a spell, favoring them over my normal Advance, but they too seemed to decline in lifespan.
> 
> My kingdom for a magnetic ballast again...


I was working my way thru a new strip mall doing the upfits. Before we finished the second unit I had a ballast go out in the 1st. 4ft 4 tube t8 elec ballast. Ive replaced at least 10. I do like the fact that they dont weigh as much(easier to install way up on a ladder)


----------



## drsparky

If you are changing from t12 to t8 and reusing the tombstones don't forget you must jumper pins together.


----------



## BuzzKill

Peter D said:


> I must disagree with you here. I have routinely replaced magnetic ballasts that are 30 or more years old. I have zero faith whatsoever that a modern electronic ballast will last anywhere near that long. The oldest I have seen is a bunch of first generation Motorola electronic ballast about 10-11 years old and at that point many of them were failing and needed replacement.


 This opinion is indeed widespread. The new fancy-schmancy electronic energy saving ballasts just don't last.
From an engineering viewpoint, just what the hell is wrong with the electronics?


----------



## MDShunk

BuzzKill said:


> This opinion is indeed widespread. The new fancy-schmancy electronic energy saving ballasts just don't last.
> From an engineering viewpoint, just what the hell is wrong with the electronics?


My gut feeling is (based on nothing more than the feeling I have in my gut :jester is that the electronic version gets nearly as warm as the magnetic version, only it doesn't have as much iron in it to soak up and dissipate the heat. I think the electronic one's more or less "stew in their own juices". Not to mention that there's just a lot more components in the electronic one's to go bad... even more components in the automatic voltage sensing one's. When given the choice, I shop for the ballast for the voltage for which it will be used instead of the Intellivolt type. I've had more success with ballasts that were for a particular voltage instead of a multi-volt style. Granted, most all the new fixtures you'll buy have the multi-volt ballasts. I'd probably like them better if they had multi-taps instead of automatic sensing.


----------



## BuzzKill

Makes sense.
Engineers are over doing it, trying to simplify things that don't need simplification; some things are just best left alone.


----------



## Lighting Retro

I understand the appreciation for magnetic ballasts. They reason they are on the way out is energy consumption only. Electronic ballasts SHOULD last longer than the magnetic counterparts based on engineering standards, but we have yet to see the first generations last like magnetic. I am removing ballasts this week that in come cases have been in use for 30+ years. (The dreaded PCB kind) All shapes and sizes, but still kicking, and that is impressive. 

HOWEVER, it is my experience that electronic ballasts are great replacements, but deal poorly with dirty electricity. If you have surges in your area, and are upgrading to electronic ballasts, you may be in for a huge shock. The out of the box bad units are less than 1% on T8 electronic, but the failure rate can be high if the power lines fluctuate in the area of the install. It can be a real warranty nightmare if it is not written into the contract. Companies will often no even know they have dirty electricity until moving to electronics. So while the product might be superior in many ways, it does not stand up to magnetic in this department.


----------



## Lighting Retro

MDShunk said:


> Lighting retro, I know it's your business to promote lighting retrofits, but I can't pretend for even a second that the electronic ballasts have a long life. Comparing warranties is apples to oranges. It was quite normal to expect a 20-30 year life out of a magnetic ballast. I have yet to have a replacement T12 electronic ballast make it past the 3-year mark. Bold statement, eh? Well, it's true. Many out of the box failures, and many don't make it past the 6-month mark. I've had pretty decent luck with entire new fixtures, but when replacing a magnetic T12 with an electronic T12 ballast.... well, I almost hate to do it. Even during T8 conversions, even if I change the tombstones to eliminate any possible loose tombstones drawing high current, the lifespan is just not there.
> 
> I agree with PeterD, however. The first Motorola electronic ballasts seemed to have a pretty good lifespan. I switched to them for a spell, favoring them over my normal Advance, but they too seemed to decline in lifespan.
> 
> My kingdom for a magnetic ballast again...


I can actually state that for the 3 years I have been doing this that I have replaced about 3 electronic ballasts on warranty, and they were bad within the first couple of weeks. So while I believe what you say, my previous post may explain why I haven't had issues where I've been at.


----------



## MDShunk

Lighting Retro said:


> I can actually state that for the 3 years I have been doing this that I have replaced about 3 electronic ballasts on warranty, and they were bad within the first couple of weeks. So while I believe what you say, my previous post may explain why I haven't had issues where I've been at.


If that's true, then there's only one explanation. The failures have gone unreported. Either that, or you're full of it. What brand are you using, mostly?


----------



## Lighting Retro

MDShunk said:


> If that's true, then there's only one explanation. The failures have gone unreported. Either that, or you're full of it. What brand are you using, mostly?


I stay with the major brands, and have used mostly GE. We have now put some Advance out, and one other. Not on the tip of my tongue. I don't doubt that some go unreported since most of the work we do is out of state. We also do a lot of labor only projects, so on those we do not service warranty issues. 

Still, had we experienced failures after 6 months, I would for sure know locally. It just hasn't been the case. I don't believe there is only one explanation at all. Like I said, if you have clients with dirty electricity, they WILL have problems. That needs to be in your agreements, as we have found electronic T8 ballasts to be very reliable in every sense of the word. If they go bad, we typically know within one week. After hearing of your experience, it has me wondering if yours isn't the exception to the rule. 

I would only tell about something that was positive, and have no motivation to share news about substandard product. I have an additional business I would spend time on before I would sing the praises of a mediocre solution. :thumbsup:


----------



## MDShunk

Don't know about "dirty power", but if they won't perform in the same installations formerly served by magnetic ballasts, they're of little value. One such installation that I get to revisit on a fairly regular basis replacing failed electronic ballasts is a data center. One could hardly sugguest that they have "dirty power", since the lighting comes out of the PDU also. If the ballasts are more sensitive than the computers; Houston, we have a problem.


----------



## Lighting Retro

MDShunk said:


> Don't know about "dirty power", but if they won't perform in the same installations formerly served by magnetic ballasts, they're of little value.


Agreed. On those sites they would be of little benefit if you had to change them out all of the time. 

I came from a Fleishman's site last week where they said they updated 400W MH fixture to high bay fluorescents, and the installing company was in there weekly doing warranty work on lamps and ballasts that went out. They knew they had an issue with the power, and that the warranty would not last forever. They put in a capacitor bank, did some PF correction, and the problem went away. They love the lighting, and the additional equipment saves wear and tear on the motors, and the increased PF saved heavy penalties from the power company Paid for itself in 14 months. 

It's unfortunate that the electronics are not as tolerant of bad conditions as the older equipment, but it is what it is. The savings are significant enough that magnetic is on it's way out. If the results you stated were happening everywhere, the technology would not be as embraced as it is nationwide and world wide. That's why I said I thought your experience may be the exception and not the rule.


----------



## bobelectric

Where did you come up with the term "fancy-shmancy"?


----------



## Lighting Retro

bobelectric said:


> Where did you come up with the term "fancy-shmancy"?


don't want to speak for him, but it's in the dictionary....

:laughing:


----------



## MDShunk

Lighting Retro said:


> Agreed. On those sites they would be of little benefit if you had to change them out all of the time.
> 
> I came from a Fleishman's site last week where they said they updated 400W MH fixture to high bay fluorescents, and the installing company was in there weekly doing warranty work on lamps and ballasts that went out. They knew they had an issue with the power, and that the warranty would not last forever. They put in a capacitor bank, did some PF correction, and the problem went away. They love the lighting, and the additional equipment saves wear and tear on the motors, and the increased PF saved heavy penalties from the power company Paid for itself in 14 months.
> 
> It's unfortunate that the electronics are not as tolerant of bad conditions as the older equipment, but it is what it is. The savings are significant enough that magnetic is on it's way out. If the results you stated were happening everywhere, the technology would not be as embraced as it is nationwide and world wide. That's why I said I thought your experience may be the exception and not the rule.


My first experience with high bay fluorescents was not so good. Mid 1990's. They were 4-pin 55W lamps from GE that went into 4-lamp 2x2 chain hung fixtures. They looked like tightly bent T5 U-bent lamps. Forget the lamp number. Sort of like really long PL lamps. They got so hot they actually exploded about a year into their life. Had the GE factory people there checking it out. It was early technology, and the GE people actually gave us Sylvania lamps to replace them all with (which lasted well). Seems like most high bay fluorescents are now 4 foot T8's and T5's.


----------



## JayH

Lighting Retro said:


> don't want to speak for him, but it's in the dictionary....
> 
> :laughing:


dictionary shmictionary


----------



## Lighting Retro

> Seems like most high bay fluorescents are now 4 foot T8's and T5's.


Yes, and we see pretty great results on those. Visually, heat wise, energy wise, etc. Not a lot of downside.


----------



## MDShunk

Lighting Retro said:


> Yes, and we see pretty great results on those. Visually, heat wise, energy wise, etc. Not a lot of downside.


I put a bunch in a new PetsMart store a couple years ago. 6 lamp fixtures, IIRC. Four across the bottom, and two sort of on the sides. Ne'er a callback yet. I think they have corporate maintenance, so I probably wouldn't know anyhow.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> My gut feeling is (based on nothing more than the feeling I have in my gut :jester is that the electronic version gets nearly as warm as the magnetic version, only it doesn't have as much iron in it to soak up and dissipate the heat. I think the electronic one's more or less "stew in their own juices".


The earlier generation of e-ballasts were like the magnetic ones in that they were made with potting compound in the same "footprint" as a mag ballast. Then they stopped manufacturing them that way and it's now just a circuit board in a box. I have noticed that the old potted e-ballasts seem to last quite a long time.


----------



## Murphy

replacing fixtures with newer ones will be quickest and after labor it may even be cheaper


----------



## Lighting Retro

Murphy said:


> replacing fixtures with newer ones will be quickest and after labor it may even be cheaper


It actually costs 1/3 to 1/2 to retrofit vs replace factoring parts and labor, so there is a very good business case for retrofit vs. replacement. This is a common thought among those who have not bought the specialty products to retrofit though, so I understand the sentiments. There is some great material out there now that makes retrofitting fast and cost effective.


----------



## MDShunk

Murphy said:


> replacing fixtures with newer ones will be quickest and after labor it may even be cheaper


That's what I end up doing most of the time when faced with a 4-lamp T12 fixture with a prismatic lens. I push to replace it with a 3-lamp T8 with an 18-cell parabolic lens. It takes the entire look of the fixtures in the office from something out of a bad 1970's basement remodel to something more appropriate for 2010.


----------



## Old Spark

You probably got a lot more information than you expected. That's good though. One thing I did not see is how you can easily tell an HO or VHO. Instead of two pins at the ends of the lamps, you have an oblong plug that slip into the tumb stone, one is tumb is fixed the other is spring loaded. If you have two pins, you do not have HO. As far as taking a tumbstone out, just get a T8 lamp and see if it fits in the existing fixture. don't try to run it on the existing ballast, just check fit. If the fixtures are pretty old, you are likely to have some bad tumbstones, maybe a lot of them. To bad you cannot afford to purchase half as many lights in LED and get the same aprox. effect at a big savings in energy use and long lasting fixtures and lamps.


----------



## West Coast Lighting

*Electronic Ballast Life Span*

When installing electronic ballasts its important to know if your installing instant start or rapid start (program start) ballasts.
If your retro fitting to instant start you must use a shunted socket. Which 
is a jumper from pin to pin on the socket. These can be purchased shunted or you can shunt them your self with a SHORT jumper (less than 3 inches). If your using non shunted sockets on instant start ballasts this will GREATLY reduce the life span of the ballast. Rapid start electronic ballast would typically only be used where motion sensors are controlling the circuit as they are more expensive and less efficient than instant start.

Hope this helps

Terry


----------



## MDShunk

West Coast Lighting said:


> When installing electronic ballasts its important to know if your installing instant start or rapid start (program start) ballasts.
> If your retro fitting to instant start you must use a shunted socket. Which
> is a jumper from pin to pin on the socket. These can be purchased shunted or you can shunt them your self with a SHORT jumper (less than 3 inches). If your using non shunted sockets on instant start ballasts this will GREATLY reduce the life span of the ballast. Rapid start electronic ballast would typically only be used where motion sensors are controlling the circuit as they are more expensive and less efficient than instant start.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Terry


Got any technical information that suggests that the shunt should be that short? I've generally been hooking the electronic ballast lead to BOTH wires coming from the former T-12 tombstone. Mathematically, that should be even better than a single ballast wire to one side of the socket and a jumper to the other side.


----------



## West Coast Lighting

*Documentation*

See attached file


----------



## bobelectric

I can't see the purpose of banks of fixtures being nippled togeher. what a replacement headsore.


----------



## Lighting Retro

bobelectric said:


> I can't see the purpose of banks of fixtures being nippled togeher. what a replacement headsore.


There are times we would recommend taking out rows of 8' industrial strips connected this way, but it can be so much cheaper just to retro to T8 vs. run new power and high bays that we often leave them in place. But I agree, not the easiest to work with.


----------



## ElectricAve.ca

check the wiring diagram on the new ballast you will have to rewire the toomstones


----------



## Electric_Light

Hey, this will be my first post, although I've been on contractortalk.com for a few years and well, I specialize in lights  

Old "cool white" T12 lamps used halophosphor which produced ghasty white ~60 CRI 4100K which gives fluorescent lights a bad image. EPACT banned the F40T12 cool white and forced replacement lamps to be 34W, or provide better than CRI 70. 

I don't recommend the energy saver lamp for a shop, because the special gas fill as they struggle badly in cold weather. 40W lamps are legal, but they're only available in rare earth phosphor type with a CRI of 75 to 85.

T8 simply means smaller diameter and it isn't superior to T12 per se, but the rare earth phosphors cost more, so it makes sense to reduce the surface area. 

For this application, I would use F32T8 841 or 850. 
8 means 8x CRI. 41=4100K and so forth. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and pick out a few different colors which range from 3000 to 6500K and decide on the color you like before you purchase them by the case. 

Use a Sylvania 2-lamp ballast per pair of lamp for normal output. If you want a higher output, use a 3 or 4 lamp ballast to run 2 lamps. Instant start ballasts are parallel and Sylvania 3 and 4 lamp models support the operation of 2 lamps. 

If the fixtures are circa 1980, I would buy pre-jumpered retrofit sockets. They're probably weathered anyways and it saves you the time of making a bunch of 3" jumpers. 

Using 32W T8 in conjunction with instant start ballast, they'll start down to 0F as opposed to 50F or so for rapid start T12. 

It will also make a safer shop environment as the electronic ballast reduces stroboscopic effect significantly (normal fluorescent can cause a moving machine to appear stopped or moving backward slowly just like a timing light does)

I would not even bother with programmed rapid start. They're costly and they don't offer any benefit except in applications subject to frequent switching. They're for public restrooms on motion detectors and classrooms where teachers cycle the lights every five minutes whenever the projector or overhead is being using. With programmed start, the lamps can withstand 50,000 to 100,000 on-off cycles or in other words, life is hardly affected by cycling them often.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

I'm doing a bunch of t12 to t8 retrofits. I've been using the universal brand 4lamp instant start ballast. I just checked their website and it doesn't mention anything about using shunted sockets...It basically shows a "retrofit" diagram that is exactly what I'm doing. You are basically connecting the old wires 2 for 1..


----------



## Electric_Light

NolaTigaBait said:


> I'm doing a bunch of t12 to t8 retrofits. I've been using the universal brand 4lamp instant start ballast. I just checked their website and it doesn't mention anything about using shunted sockets...It basically shows a "retrofit" diagram that is exactly what I'm doing. You are basically connecting the old wires 2 for 1..


Just do it. It will work fine either way at the time of commissioning. You won't know it until the client realizes that a significant portion of lamps are failing out much sooner than they should. 

If you look at the diagram, you'll see something like this in diagram =]---- showing the two pins are connected together. 


http://www.gelighting.com/na/busine...white_papers/download/121878_lamp_holders.pdf

Rapid start to rapid start = no action required

RS to IS = must be jumpred or converted to shunted sockets. 

If you're going to be retrofitting to T8 dimming, DO NOT use shunted or you'll kill all the ballasts. If the current sockets have a flat contact rather than edge contact, I would replace them to edge type to ensure proper operation.
http://www.lutron.com/ballast/pdf/LutronBallastpg6-7.pdf


----------



## NolaTigaBait

I can't see how it is a problem...I'm wiring it as described on universal's website...I'm not touching the sockets, unless they are damaged...I'' post the info...
Aren't the old magnetic style already jumpered?...
http://www.unvlt.com/techSupport/retrofit_wiring/media/4-Lamp%20Rapid%20Start%20to%204-Lamp%20Instant%20Start.pdf


----------



## Electric_Light

NolaTigaBait said:


> I can't see how it is a problem...I'm wiring it as described on universal's website...I'm not touching the sockets, unless they are damaged...I'' post the info...
> *Aren't the old magnetic style already jumpered?...*
> http://www.unvlt.com/techSupport/retrofit_wiring/media/4-Lamp%20Rapid%20Start%20to%204-Lamp%20Instant%20Start.pdf


No, it isn't.
You don't need to get shunted sockets. You just have to manually jumper the two connections as close as possible to the socket otherwise. If the sockets are aging, or when you consider the time of doing the wiring, it might just make more economic sense to just pull the old ballasts out together w/ all the sockets, then fit the new one with new jumpered sockets.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Electric_Light said:


> No, it isn't.
> You don't need to get shunted sockets. You just have to manually jumper the two connections as close as possible to the socket otherwise. If the sockets are aging, or when you consider the time of doing the wiring, it might just make more economic sense to just pull the old ballasts out together w/ all the sockets, then fit the new one with new jumpered sockets.


 
I understand the difference between the shunted sockets and not...What I don't get is the engineers at the ballast company approve of what I am doing, yet you( probably a maintainance man) doesn't...I'll go with the ballast companies recommendations.


----------



## Electric_Light

NolaTigaBait said:


> I understand the difference between the shunted sockets and not...What I don't get is the engineers at the ballast company approve of what I am doing, yet you( *probably a maintenance man)* doesn't...I'll go with the ballast companies recommendations.


and you are what, apparently an electrician who thinks rapid start sockets might already be jumpered :laughing:

Nothing wrong with cutting two wires 3" from the sockets, then connecting together with one wire from ballast, given that you don't mind the additional effort incurred in that.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

> and you are what, apparently an electrician who thinks rapid start sockets might already be jumpered


That came out wrong...I didn't mean internally jumpered, I meant with a jumper wire...The yellows have a jumper wire acoss the pins and then goes to the 2nd yellow socket. The red/blue have 2 wires going to each socket...All I do , when I retrofit is that I'm tying them all together, and I think that is the same result as using a shunted socket...

Also, the maintenance man thing came out wrong...I meant it as no disrespect...I was just implying that you do lighting maintainance mainly and that you aren't an engineer.


----------



## Electric_Light

NolaTigaBait said:


> The yellows have a jumper wire acoss the pins and then goes to the 2nd yellow socket. The red/blue have 2 wires going to each socket...All I do , when I retrofit is that I'm tying them all together, and I think that is the same result as using a shunted socket...


It is. This is a setup on my test unit using a short jumper with a rapid start socket. Removing the socket is just a matter of yanking it out. This setup works just as well as internally shunted socket, or what you described.

Though, if the sockets are original from 1980, they are probably becoming brittle, so replacement won't hurt. 

Figure out the needed lead length for the type of fixture, and the ballast wires can be trimmed and fitted with new internally shunted sockets in the shop rather than on the lift, then its just a matter of yanking old sockets out by the wire, slipping in the new ones on units you had pre-assembled in your shop. 

Providing fresh sockets give you a competitive advantage(we include brand new sockets in retrofit... our competitors don't...), and the cost of socket might break even or even offset the cost of having guys do the jumpering at each fixture. So, it might let you bid lower, or bid the same and reduce the cost, thus increasing profit margin.


----------

