# Wet Breakers



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I've got a 3 phase sub panel in a fabrication shop that got seriously wet. (they broke a sprinkler pipe with a forklift) Mind you, this is fresh water and they didn't really go under but they got really soaked. They are regular 240 V stab on breakers.


Are they junk?

I've had panels that went under before but it was nasty dirty water and I considered them junk and just replaced them.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Are they making snap crackle pop sounds yet ?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I would think that once they're wet they've been compromised. How do you know they aren't? Rust will build up and they may not trip when expected.


----------



## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

Why risk it? Just replace it.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Change 'em out. Even 'fresh' water has chemicals in it that can be harmful to breakers. And there may not be any problems now, but years down the road, those chemicals can corrode the innards and prevent them from working as designed.

I'm sure the insurance agency will agree to changing them. UL does.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

No, they seem fine. The guy (a friend) took the cover off and ran a little space heater blowing into the panel and dried everything out pretty good before he energized the panel again. 

I would hate to see him have to buy all new. He helps me out a lot with steel cut offs and lets me use his press brake to bend stuff when I need to. If it was just common single phase breakers I would just give them to him, but most of the bigger 3 phase stuff I don't even have to give him.


He isn't making an insurance claim. He just fixed the sprinkler pipe and reset the dry valve. That was fixed about 2 hours after it happened. But I'll bet there is a good $1,000 worth of breakers that got wet. I've known the guy for 30 years, he won't claim anything like that on his insurance.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> .........I would hate to see him have to buy all new. ..........



Would you rather have him die in a fire?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> No, they seem fine. The guy (a friend) took the cover off and ran a little space heater blowing into the panel and dried everything out pretty good before he energized the panel again.
> 
> I would hate to see him have to buy all new. He helps me out a lot with steel cut offs and lets me use his press brake to bend stuff when I need to. If it was just common single phase breakers I would just give them to him, but most of the bigger 3 phase stuff I don't even have to give him.


They're junk, they gonna rust internally.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> No, they seem fine. The guy (a friend) took the cover off and ran a little space heater blowing into the panel and dried everything out pretty good before he energized the panel again.
> 
> I would hate to see him have to buy all new. He helps me out a lot with steel cut offs and lets me use his press brake to bend stuff when I need to. If it was just common single phase breakers I would just give them to him, but most of the bigger 3 phase stuff I don't even have to give him.


 Might work, I remember drying out a main breaker that got soaked from a overflowing kitchen sink back in the day. Never heard back from the customer.
You might want to spray CRC electro contact cleaner and a water displacer on all the breakers and bus bar.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Would you rather have him die in a fire?


Actually you couldn't set this place on fire if you wanted to. Between the cutting torches, the welders, the sparks from the grinders, and the cut off saws, if there was anything there to burn, it would already be burnt.

But I know what you mean, My first thought was they were junk. I was worried they might trip but not open up all three phases.


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Here is a link that will help

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Power Management/0110DB0401.pdf


----------



## AnthonyClifton (Sep 14, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> No, they seem fine. The guy (a friend) took the cover off and ran a little space heater blowing into the panel and dried everything out pretty good before he energized the panel again.
> 
> I would hate to see him have to buy all new. He helps me out a lot with steel cut offs and lets me use his press brake to bend stuff when I need to. If it was just common single phase breakers I would just give them to him, but most of the bigger 3 phase stuff I don't even have to give him.
> 
> ...


 

If he is that good of a friend, why don't you sell hin the new breakers at cost?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> Actually you couldn't set this place on fire if you wanted to. Between the cutting torches, the welders, the sparks from the grinders, and the cut off saws, if there was anything there to burn, it would already be burnt.
> 
> But I know what you mean, My first thought was they were junk. I was worried they might trip but not open up all three phases.


Trust your instincts in this case.




joethemechanic said:


> .......... But I'll bet there is a good $1,000 worth of breakers that got wet. ..........


 Are you kidding? $1k worth of breakers that got wet and you're wondering about whether replacing them or not?

$_10k_ I can see questioning. *But one stinking lousy grand?* Get real. 

I guess his safety isn't worth $1,000.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I removed these breakers from my house when I moved in. They got wet years before that and no one noticed. I saw rust color on the breakers so I opened them up.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> No, they seem fine. The guy (a friend) took the cover off and ran a little space heater blowing into the panel and dried everything out pretty good before he energized the panel again.


Seem fine??? What does that mean? Don't you own a megger? Do an insulation resistance test before even considering putting them back in service. But really you should either have them tested or replace them.


----------



## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Nema.org has a comprehensive downloadable doc. on what they consider when electrical products get wet.

Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment

Now one has to sign up with e-mail to download the doc.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Never smelled sprinkler water that wasn't rancid from the years in pipe. Corossive to me.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Per NEMA, they MUST be replaced.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I removed these breakers from my house when I moved in. They got wet years before that and no one noticed. I saw rust color on the breakers so I opened them up.


If you don't mind if I swipe the photo so I can show couple of my customer in case they try to bluff me I have French verison but need Américaine verison.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Zog said:


> Seem fine??? What does that mean? Don't you own a megger? Do an insulation resistance test before even considering putting them back in service. But really you should either have them tested or replace them.


Seems fine meant I was down at his place for a social visit in my car. he told me what happened I walked over and looked. His machines were running. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary except the cover was off and everything looked pretty clean. I told him to put the cover back on before he killed somebody.

Then we went and got a pizza for lunch while I busted his balls about the numbnuts that broke the pipe and the stupid thing they were doing when they broke it.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

drsparky said:


> I removed these breakers from my house when I moved in. They got wet years before that and _no one noticed_. I saw rust color on the breakers so I opened them up.


This is just the thing, how much of this stuff is out there that has gotten wet and no one noticed, or even thought that it was a problem after the water dried up. Or for that matter how many times does an employee do something and get equipment wet and not tell the boss to avoid getting in trouble.

And then there is the whole issue of used machinery, How do you know what has happened? Maybe the trucker didn't tarp it properly, maybe the guy selling it had some numbnuts pressure wash it so it looked good in pictures.

Really, other than a visual with the covers off and a test with a megger, how do you really know?


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Trust your instincts in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It isn't my call anyway. it's his building and his equipment. Did you think I should have put on my safety patrol badge and opened up the primaries feeding his transformer?










Why did they always yell "I'm taking you up" when you hit your buddy with a snowball at the bus stop? That's usually when we pelted the safety with snow balls lol


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> If you don't mind if I swipe the photo so I can show couple of my customer in case they try to bluff me I have French verison but need Américaine verison.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Pas de problème, n'importe qui peut les utiliser.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> It isn't my call anyway. it's his building and his equipment. .........


Yet he's asking _you_..... the alleged professional.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I told him to let them go for now but to keep his eye on them. LMAO I've been after him to up the voltage in the shop anyway. As he has been expanding he has been pushing the load a bit on his 240/120 V 4 wire delta service.

Just curious, have you ever worked in heavy industry? Like a steel mill, or a scrap processing facility? There are lots of ways to get killed. Personally I think the open span wires on his bridge crane are more likely to kill someone than a panel that got wet mounted in a block building with a concrete floor and a steel roof.

So if it was me, before I spent a penny on that panel, I would replace the span wires with safety rail. Especially with that Delta transformer. One of those wires has a high leg (208V) potential to ground.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> ....... I've been after him to up the voltage in the shop anyway. ............


To what? And why?


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> I told him to let them go for now but to keep his eye on them. LMAO I've been after him to up the voltage in the shop anyway. As he has been expanding he has been pushing the load a bit on his 240/120 V 4 wire delta service.
> 
> Just curious, have you ever worked in heavy industry? Like a steel mill, or a scrap processing facility? There are lots of ways to get killed. Personally I think the open span wires on his bridge crane are more likely to kill someone than a panel that got wet mounted in a block building with a concrete floor and a steel roof.
> 
> So if it was me, before I spent a penny on that panel, I would replace the span wires with safety rail. Especially with that Delta transformer. One of those wires has a high leg (208V) potential to ground.



Up the voltage???

Do you mean up the amperage???


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> Up the voltage???
> 
> Do you mean up the amperage???



No I want him to up the shop voltage to 480. That 240 V BS is really for a smaller operation


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> No I want him to up the shop voltage to 480. That 240 V BS is really for a smaller operation



And then do what with 480v? Make him buy all new equipment? Install all new 277v lighting?

How long will that be for the ROI?


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> To what? And why?


The guy has like 25 and 30 HP motors in there running stuff like air compressors, not to mention starting some high inertia loads like flywheel powered Press brakes, shears, and an iron worker.

The high inertia stuff has class H (high rotor resistance) induction motors with magnetic motor starters. They probably should have soft starts on them too But,,,,,,,,

I just think his shop has kind of outgrown his 240 V 3 phase service 

15 or 20 years ago when he bought some of those machines we had to have the motors rewound. The company he bought them from was an old 2 phase shop. Big old U frame stuff. Not that it would have been a big deal to adapt a T frame, but the high rotor resistance units were very pricey. And so were plc, and soft start divices. I'm glad I had them wound with 9 leads coming out into the peckerhead


----------



## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> Up the voltage???
> 
> Do you mean up the amperage???


Probably a little of both. The service is obsolete and the poco won't increase the ampacity.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> Probably a little of both. The service is obsolete and the poco won't increase the ampacity.



How do you know this? Are you the O.P? :blink:


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> And then do what with 480v? Make him buy all new equipment? Install all new 277v lighting?
> 
> How long will that be for the ROI?


Pretty much all the equipment in the place is 240/480V , The lighting is all high bay fixtures and if I remember right it all had ballasts with multiple taps.

Really other than the office and the 120 V recepticles in the shop, this is just a matter of changing panels, connections, heaters in the motor starters, and adding a small dry transformer for the 120 V loads


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

retiredsparktech said:


> Probably a little of both. The service is obsolete and the poco won't increase the ampacity.


Not sure what the POCO will or will not do, but the service is obsolete. hell in the late 90's I saw him blow the primaries trying to test a 75 HP screw compressor against my advice.



Just thinking about that is funny. The secretary about chit herself. It was one of those "Hey y'all watch this" moments


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

BTW for those of you who don't know, this is a primary blowing


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Joe. If he is a friend and he does not want to spend the money, all you can do is warn him. You cannot force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Just because everyone on this forum says they must be changed (I am in agreement with them) the customer/friend can do as he pleases. Just let him know of the possible safety issues and the possibility it could cause machine damage. It's up to him to replace, and it's up to you to tell him. Thats where your responsibility ends.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Joe. If he is a friend and he does not want to spend the money, all you can do is warn him. You cannot force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Just because everyone on this forum says they must be changed (I am in agreement with them) the customer/friend can do as he pleases. Just let him know of the possible safety issues and the possibility it could cause machine damage. It's up to him to replace, and it's up to you to tell him. Thats where your responsibility ends.



That was pretty much my worry, high resistance in the breaker, especially when running those flywheels up to speed.


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Actually you couldn't set this place on fire if you wanted to. Between the cutting torches, the welders, the sparks from the grinders, and the cut off saws, if there was anything there to burn, it would already be burnt.
> 
> But I know what you mean, My first thought was they were junk. I was worried they might trip but not open up all three phases.


I can hardly believe the premis you are using to avoid changing the breakers out. CAN'T BURN THE BUILDING DOWN.
Ever seen an arcing fault even in movies? It can burn steel, aluminum, copper, concrete, etc.
If a breaker fails to trip because it is rusted internally what might happen to the equipment? It might melt down around the electrical components. Imagine the cost of changing out a punch press motor if it was internally melted and the auxilliary electrical equipment like the starter and controls is fried? How long to get the parts? How long is the machine down? What cannot be done if the machine is down for a week or two?
$1000 worth of breakers is false economy. Last and scariest to you. You are the expert in this discussion so if you recomend leaving the wetted breakers and there is a loss of property or life how are you going to defend against a law suite or coroner's inquest.
Wet breakers are scrap metal and each one should be placed on an anvil and smashed.
Only large format breakers can be repaired.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

And when I say friend, I mean a "help me get rid of this body and kidnap a witness" kind of friend. We don't take each other's advice all the time, although we do ask for it a lot


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Mshea said:


> It can burn steel, aluminum, copper, concrete, etc.



Steel, copper, concrete? Really 240V???????

How about cinder block and brick?


BTW he has a cutting torch in there that you have to run off of a liquid line into a special evaporator because otherwise it freezes the liquid ox bottles. The torch tip has a ox hole in the middle that you could stick your pinky in. If that hasn't set the place on fire yet nothing will


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> Steel, copper, concrete? Really 240V???????
> 
> How about cinder block and brick?
> 
> ...


I would not argue this point as you will loose the argument. Fire is fire and smoke kills just as easy.
Voltage has no bearing on this subject.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Mshea said:


> Last and scariest to you. You are the expert in this discussion so if you recomend leaving the wetted breakers and there is a loss of property or life how are you going to defend against a law suite or coroner's inquest.



I couldn't do the kind of work I do if I was that paranoid about stuff.

What happens when I am lifting something that weighs 20,000 with my forklift for a grand total of 54,000 pounds, with the majority of it on the front axle and I run over some pit in the ground that was covered up in 1930 and the ground collapses. For that matter I could get hit by a drunk driver walking out to get my mail. When your time is up, your time is up. Que Sera Sera


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> I've got a 3 phase sub panel in a fabrication shop that got seriously wet. (they broke a sprinkler pipe with a forklift) Mind you, this is fresh water and they didn't really go under but they got really soaked. They are regular 240 V stab on breakers.
> 
> 
> Are they junk?



So why did you even ask the question?

It was pointless as you did not listen or care what anyone thought.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> I would not argue this point as you will loose the argument. Fire is fire and smoke kills just as easy.
> Voltage has no bearing on this subject.


I think you guys don't understand what kind of building this is. It looks something like one of these.










We are talking 200 feet long with 35 foot to the roof trusses, There is so much ventilation you could burn a pile of tires in there and not kill anyone.

Damn, am I that old that I am the only one who remembers working in steel mills and foundries?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> I think you guys don't understand what kind of building this is. It looks something like one of these.
> 
> 
> We are talking 200 feet long with 35 foot to the roof trusses, There is so much ventilation you could burn a pile of tires in there and not kill anyone.


"Excuses are tools of the incompetent, and those who specialize in them seldom go far."



Excuses are tools of the incompetent used to build monuments to nothing. For those who specialize in them shall never be good at anything else."



An excuse is worse than a lie, for an excuse is a lie, guarded. Alexander Pope



Bad excuses are worse than none. Thomas Fuller



Don't make excuses, make good. Elbert Hubbard



Every vice has its excuse ready. Publilius Syrus



He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. Benjamin Franklin



He who excuses himself, accuses himself. Gabriel Meurier



Hold yourself responsible for a higher standard than anybody else expects of you, never excuse yourself. Henry Ward Beecher



If you don't want to do something, one excuse is as good as another. Yiddish Proverb



Nothing is impossible; there are ways that lead to everything, and if we had sufficient will we should always have sufficient means. It is often merely for an excuse that we say things are impossible. Francois De La Rochefoucauld



The best job goes to the person who can get it done without passing the buck or coming back with excuses. Napoleon Hill



Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse. Thomas Szasz



We are all manufacturers. Making good, making trouble, or making excuses. H. V. Adolt



We have forty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse. Rudyard Kipling



There aren't nearly enough crutches in the world for all the lame excuses. Marcus Stroup



Excuses are the nails used to build a house of failure. Don Wilder



Difficulty is the excuse history never accepts. Edward R. Murrow



It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one. George Washington



We are all manufacturers. Making good, making trouble, or making excuses. H. V. Adolt



He who excuses himself accuses himself. Gabriel Meurier



The real man is one who always finds excuses for others, but never excuses himself. Henry Ward Beecher



People with integrity do what they say they are going to do. Others have excuses. Laura Schlessinger



For many people, an excuse is better than an achievement because an achievement, no matter how great, leaves you having to prove yourself again in the future; but an excuse can last for life. Eric Hoffer



Several excuses are always less convincing than one. Aldous Huxley



The trick is not how much pain you feel but how much joy you feel. Any idiot can feel pain. Life is full of excuses to feel pain, excuses not to live; excuses, excuses, excuses. Erica Jong



It is easier to find an excuse than to find a reason. Doug Brown



I attribute my success to this: I never gave or took an excuse. Florence Nightingale



Don't make excuses, make good. Elbert Hubbard



There's a difference between interest and commitment. When you're interested in doing something, you do it only when circumstance permit. When you're committed to something, you accept no excuses, only results. Art Turock



Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses. George Washington Carver



You can give in to the failure messages and be a bitter deadbeat of excuses. Or you can choose to be happy and positive and excited about life. A.L. Williams



Difficulty is the excuse history never accepts. Edward R. Murrow

He who excuses himself accuses himself. Gabriel Meurier

An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie; for an excuse is a lie guarded. Alexander Pope

Excuses are the nails used to build a house of failure. Don Wilder

Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses. George Washington Carver



There aren't nearly enough crutches in the world for all the lame excuses. Marcus Stroup

People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." George Bernard Shaw



Never ruin an apology with an excuse. Kimberly Johnson



Uncalled for excuses are practical confessions. Charles Simmons



"Don't look for excuses to lose. Look for excuses to win." Chi Chi Rodriguez



“Love will find a way. Indifference will find an excuse.”



“Good taste is the excuse I've always given for leading such a bad life” Oscar Wilde



“Bad things are always going to happen in life. People will hurt you. But you can't use that as an excuse to fail or to hurt someone back. You'll only hurt yourself.”



“Man gives every reason for his conduct save one, every excuse for his crimes save one, every plea for his safety save one; and that one is his cowardice” George Bernard Shaw



“There's no excuse to be bored. Sad, yes. Angry, yes. Depressed, yes. Crazy, yes. But there's no excuse for boredom, ever.” Karolvig Viggo Mortensen



“Pessimism is an excuse for not trying and a guarantee to a personal failure.” Bill Clinton



“We have more ability than will power, and it is often an excuse to ourselves that we imagine that things are impossible.” François de la Rochefoucauld



“Smokers, male and female, inject and excuse idleness in their lives every time they light a cigarette.” Sidonie Gabrielle Colette



“Destiny: A tyrant's authority for crime and a fool's excuse for failure.” Ambrose Bierce



“Every man ought to be inquisitive through every hour of his great adventure down to the day when he shall no longer cast a shadow in the sun. For if he dies without a question in his heart, what excuse is there for his continuance?” Frank Moore Colby


----------



## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> How do you know this? Are you the O.P? :blink:


 According to their metering manual, WE Energies will support existing installations, they will not increase the size of existing services.


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Jesus Christ, if I said the panel was in a transformer vault with a fire supression system you guys would still say someone is going to get killed and I'm going to go to jail lol

In reality it is mounted on a steel column next to a filled cinderblock wall.


And like I said, first things first, I'm more worried about those span wires in the crane way from like 1950. **** they are fed off of a piece of messenger wire suspended from the roof trusses.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> Jesus Christ, if I said the panel was in a transformer vault with a fire supression system you guys would still say someone is going to get killed and I'm going to go to jail lol
> 
> In reality it is mounted on a steel column next to a filled cinderblock wall.


You came here, you asked if breakers that had been soaked were any good.

We all said no.

We could also link you to NEMA documents saying the same.

Now personally I don't care if you pack these breakers with black powder and stick them back in the panel.

But the fact remains this entire thread is here because you asked for our opinion and you got it. 




> And like I said, first things first, I'm more worried about those span wires in the crane way from like 1950. **** they are fed off of a piece of messenger wire suspended from the roof trusses.


That sounds legal, ARTICLE 396 Messenger-Supported Wiring.:jester:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Perhaps Joe and Cletus should form a partnership.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> Jesus Christ, if I said the panel was in a transformer vault with a fire supression system you guys would still say someone is going to get killed and I'm going to go to jail lol
> 
> In reality it is mounted on a steel column next to a filled cinderblock wall.
> 
> And like I said, first things first, I'm more worried about those span wires in the crane way from like 1950. **** they are fed off of a piece of messenger wire suspended from the roof trusses.


So you think breakers are just to protect against combustibles??? They're to protect the guys equipment too.!!


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I wouldn't worry as much about a fire as I would a fault to something metal on one of the machines and someone touches it. The breaker didn't trip because it was rusty. Not something I would want on my conscience. I don't know how many breakers there are but you could change them a couple at a time for a few weeks, and check the bus bar after removing each one.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

What a joke, you asked the question and got multiple answers, basically all the same. But you must be smarter then the ones that tried to help you with answers, since you do not listen well....


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> I've got a 3 phase sub panel in a fabrication shop that got seriously wet. (they broke a sprinkler pipe with a forklift) Mind you, this is fresh water and they didn't really go under but they got really soaked. They are regular 240 V stab on breakers.
> 
> 
> Are they junk?
> ...


 
Joe, you really should change your password. Obviously, the guy who posted 3 pages worth of rationalizations with your account has hacked you.


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Steel, copper, concrete? Really 240V???????
> 
> How about cinder block and brick?
> 
> ...


An arc may not be easy to sustain at 240 volts but it burns at 35,000 degrees which is hot enough to burn a lot of materials not considered to be combustible. Ever measure the open circuit voltage on a welder? a lot lower than 240 volts yet it burns metal doesn't it?

While there is some debate about the ability to sustain an arc at 240 volts I promise you I have seen at least 2 - 240 volt panels where the steel enclosure was literally burned away.

Most single pole 10,000 amp interupt breakers are less than $10. Sure the multi pole breakers are pricier but again unless you test each breaker on a certified test bench and verify each breaker still trips within their protection curves I don't see the logic in your defense? How much Future "bad" is sense to save $1000 today.

I am sure you have read all the responses as it looks like you are following the thread but I would add my voice to the better safe than sorry group.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

These flywheels you mention, what if somebody gets caught in one? His buddy happens to see it, runs over just in time as it wrapping the guys shirt around the shaft. Luckily, he makes it to the service panel just in time, flips the breaker off, but nothing happens, the machine keeps running, pulling his friend in and ripping him to shreds. 

Sure glad you saved the $1,000 bucks


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> These flywheels you mention, what if somebody gets caught in one? His buddy happens to see it, runs over just in time as it wrapping the guys shirt around the shaft. Luckily, he makes it to the service panel just in time, flips the breaker off, but nothing happens, the machine keeps running, pulling his friend in and ripping him to shreds.
> 
> Sure glad you saved the $1,000 bucks


S*&T those flywheels have about a 10 minute rundown, if you get caught in one you are getting seriously F ed up power on or not. Not to mention there are safety switches near the machines.

He doesn't want to do it anyway, there is no point in arguing with him. The more I tell him they are junk, the more he is going to want to use them just to prove me wrong.

He is probably my best friend, but he is a total hard headed coal cracker.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> S*&T those flywheels have about a 10 minute rundown, if you get caught in one you are getting seriously F ed up power on or not. Not to mention there are safety switches near the machines.
> 
> He doesn't want to do it anyway, there is no point in arguing with him. The more I tell him they are junk, the more he is going to want to use them just to prove me wrong.
> 
> He is probably my best friend, but he is a total hard headed coal cracker.


 
Jeez, you're full of excuses. The point of that "fable" was to show you they're not just to keep the panel from catching fire. Why'd you even start this thread?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> And when I say friend, I mean a "help me get rid of this body and kidnap a witness" kind of friend. We don't take each other's advice all the time, although we do ask for it a lot


In that case the proper course of action here is have him get some beer and contact cleaner and go to work getting bombed and and sniffing contact cleaner fumes.


----------



## GA FRANK (May 10, 2011)

Joe, I have worked in steel mills and foundries and I know the conditions
that are there, you can't change-out every breaker that gets some kind of
contamination, I would suggest going in when the shop is shutdown and open up one of these breakers and see if moisture actually did enter the
breakers.Some people do not live in a perferct world.I know.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> I've got a 3 phase sub panel in a fabrication shop that got seriously wet. (they broke a sprinkler pipe with a forklift) Mind you, this is fresh water and they didn't really go under but they got really soaked. They are regular 240 V stab on breakers.
> 
> 
> Are they junk?
> ...


They are junk unless you contact your insurer and explain the situation. If they agree with you ...reuse them. What is your gut feeling about calling your insurer?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Jeez, you're full of excuses. The point of that "fable" was to show you they're not just to keep the panel from catching fire. *Why'd you even start this thread?*


My guess is another troll.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

GA FRANK said:


> Joe, I have worked in steel mills and foundries and I know the conditions
> that are there, you can't change-out every breaker that gets some kind of
> contamination, I would suggest going in when the shop is shutdown and open up one of these breakers and see if moisture actually did enter the
> breakers.Some people do not live in a perferct world.I know.


 
You're preaching to the choir, heavy equpiment is my specialty:


































My point was, why'd he start the therad if his mind is already made up?


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You're preaching to the choir, heavy equpiment is my specialty:
> 
> 
> View attachment 9453
> ...


Just to see where all you guys stand, 

That panel in the first picture gives me a woody. It reminds me of my youth.

Is that a paper mill? You're somewhere down south aren't you.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A little sprinkler water never hurt anything.
We have soaked dozens of panels here with fire main slop.

Heck it makes them panels stronger..

Them breakers never trip..

Cheap is cheap and stupid is stupid.
They go hand in hand.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> My point was, why'd he start the therad if his mind is already made up?


Oh I know, I know!!!


Because he is just another sad stupid troll.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> Just to see where all you guys stand,
> 
> That panel in the first picture gives me a woody. It reminds me of my youth.
> 
> Is that a paper mill? You're somewhere down south aren't you.


 
If you liked that one. you'll love this one:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Pffft. Rookie.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

My pictures are of working equipment, i think yours was sunk in the ocean for a few years


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Sludge thickener drive in Pasaic Valley Sewage Newark NJ. one of eight. The biggest part of the job was setting up the scaffolding to support the tank lid so I could cut the support collom that passes through the center of the gearbox.

That is the largest Zimpro sludge processing installation in North America


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> Sludge thickener drive in Pasaic Valley Sewage Newark NJ. one of eight. The biggest part of the job was setting up the scaffolding to support the tank lid so I could cut the support collom that passes through the center of the gearbox.
> 
> That is the largest Zimpro sludge processing installation in North America


 

You're the guy the arrow's pointing at? Man you look gay:whistling2:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

ok, so it's a wet breaker contest with noalox shots then.....~CS~


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> Sludge thickener drive in Pasaic Valley Sewage Newark NJ. one of eight. The biggest part of the job was setting up the scaffolding to support the tank lid so I could cut the support collom that passes through the center of the gearbox.
> 
> That is the largest Zimpro sludge processing installation in North America


How do you thicken sludge. Do you add a flocking agent?


----------



## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm not sure about what chemicals are added upstream. The sludge thickener is really just a huge sediment bowl. sludge is pumped up in the center. as it moves toward the outer wall it transitions from a turbulent flow into a laminar flow. The elements with the highest specific gravity settle to the bottom and the lighter stuff flows over a weir on the wall and most likely to some kind of bio contactor.

The drive turns rake arms in the bottom of the tank pull the thickened sludge into the center and into a pit and pumped to the next stage of the process.

The rakes turn very slowly making one revolution in about an hour. I'm thinking that particular gearbox was rated for 345,000 foot pounds of torque. It weighed 14,000 and change and that is really a medium sized drive. We put one on a paper mill in Georgetown SC that weighed 35,000 and I believe the output was somewhere around 1,000,000 foot pounds. We had to bring in a 500 ton crane to lift it.


----------

