# Starting Out As A CW



## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

1) any local that does the CW program probably 80% of the members are trash anyways, thats why they need the cw program. so your question is quite a conundrum for me, to be a normal brother in that local you would have to be trash or be able to act like your okay with most everyone else being, which is very hard.

2) work for 4 years, keep your paystubs, study code and then take the journeyman test. don't go through apprenticeship, that local has a cw program so there apprenticeship is obviously garbage. if you go through apprenticeship sounds like it will take you at least 6 years of which you will have to go through a program that wastes your time. if you test as a jman you can do it in 4 yrs or 8k hours. when the local bucks you on taking the jman test call the district and tell them there not letting you take the test, it's in our ibew constitution that they have to let you test in, but many locals will lie to you to pay you less (yes the union side will lie to you for this)

3)nope, i can teach anybody this stuff.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I've been J-dubin for a CW for 2 weeks. Today we ran ~ 300' of 4" EMT in trusses @ a warehouse TI, and for a mid 30's guy, he kicks some ass. He isn't afraid to jump right in, and thinks ahead. That's a plus. Don't wait around to be told what to do, anticipate. Planning your job is an important part of the job, too many trips to the gang box gets noticed. Knowing how to use power tools safely is a must.

And, 80% of our local isn't trash, and we don't treat people like that. So, I don't know what that other dude is talking about. He seems pissed about something.


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

Wiresmith said:


> 1) any local that does the CW program probably 80% of the members are trash anyways, thats why they need the cw program. so your question is quite a conundrum for me, to be a normal brother in that local you would have to be trash or be able to act like your okay with most everyone else being, which is very hard.
> 
> 2) work for 4 years, keep your paystubs, study code and then take the journeyman test. don't go through apprenticeship, that local has a cw program so there apprenticeship is obviously garbage. if you go through apprenticeship sounds like it will take you at least 6 years of which you will have to go through a program that wastes your time. if you test as a jman you can do it in 4 yrs or 8k hours. when the local bucks you on taking the jman test call the district and tell them there not letting you take the test, it's in our ibew constitution that they have to let you test in, but many locals will lie to you to pay you less (yes the union side will lie to you for this)
> 
> 3)nope, i can teach anybody this stuff.


I appreciate the reply, Wiresmith. Thank ya, sir.


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

joebanana said:


> I've been J-dubin for a CW for 2 weeks. Today we ran ~ 300' of 4" EMT in trusses @ a warehouse TI, and for a mid 30's guy, he kicks some ass. He isn't afraid to jump right in, and thinks ahead. That's a plus. Don't wait around to be told what to do, anticipate. Planning your job is an important part of the job, too many trips to the gang box gets noticed. Knowing how to use power tools safely is a must.
> 
> And, 80% of our local isn't trash, and we don't treat people like that. So, I don't know what that other dude is talking about. He seems pissed about something.


Thanks Joe, I appreciate the reply. 

And can do, will do. Certainly don't want to let my J-Man down. 

And I kinda wondered that as well lol.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Being a CW beats being a DA (dumb ass) and not going union at all. Just an observation made after more than forty years in the trade.....


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

macmikeman said:


> Being a CW beats being a DA (dumb ass) and not going union at all. Just an observation made after more than forty years in the trade.....



Thanks Mac !! Appreciate the post, sir ! Just doing what I can to get a foot in the door.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Good luck. Sounds like you're excited and you have a good head on your shoulders.


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

MikeFL said:


> Good luck. Sounds like you're excited and you have a good head on your shoulders.



Thanks Mike !!!


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

joebanana said:


> I've been J-dubin for a CW for 2 weeks. Today we ran ~ 300' of 4" EMT in trusses @ a warehouse TI, and for a mid 30's guy, he kicks some ass. He isn't afraid to jump right in, and thinks ahead. That's a plus. Don't wait around to be told what to do, anticipate. Planning your job is an important part of the job, too many trips to the gang box gets noticed. Knowing how to use power tools safely is a must.
> 
> And, 80% of our local isn't trash, and we don't treat people like that. So, I don't know what that other dude is talking about. He seems pissed about something.


I am, LOL. I don't mean the CW's themselves suck, i mean it sucks the union would do that to someone that wants to be union. they are being taken advantage of for the benefit of other members paycheck at the expense of the CW's paycheck. i would throw something if we were in person talking about this, lol. i want everyone that wants to be union to be union, but cw program is not that, i don't want everyone to be union just to pay dues, i want them union for them to be better off and from day one.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Edit: oops, double post


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wiresmith said:


> I am, LOL. I don't mean the CW's themselves suck, i mean it sucks the union would do that to someone that wants to be union. they are being taken advantage of for the benefit of other members paycheck at the expense of the CW's paycheck. i would throw something if we were in person talking about this, lol. i want everyone that wants to be union to be union, but cw program is not that, i don't want everyone to be union just to pay dues, i want them union for them to be better off and from day one.


It's a tricky subject. I've been noticing lately, that there are more and more "CWs" on projects that used to have at least a few JW's. Now they're all apprentices, CW's, and a foreman. And they don't make bad wages.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

CW is a terrible place to stay. CE's are closer to turning out, and I encourage them to get their license and move up ASAP. CW should be for temporary labor, or just a place holder until there is space in the apprenticeship program.

Our local requires 16,000 OTJ hours to turn out and the CE3's make around $22 an hour.

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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

joebanana said:


> It's a tricky subject. I've been noticing lately, that there are more and more "CWs" on projects that used to have at least a few JW's. Now they're all apprentices, CW's, and a foreman. And they don't make bad wages.


there doing the same work they should get the same minimum pay and *benefits* were f***ing union.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

TGGT said:


> CW is a terrible place to stay. CE's are closer to turning out, and I encourage them to get their license and move up ASAP. CW should be for temporary labor, or just a place holder until there is space in the apprenticeship program.
> 
> Our local requires 16,000 OTJ hours to turn out and the CE3's make around $22 an hour.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


your extending the apprenticeship program and length of time they are at lower wages, your taking food out of there kids mouths. or at least money out of there pocket, a little exaggeration never hurt though, if theres work in the local for the cw theres work for them being an apprentice let them in now, not later. wheres the brotherhood? if theres one group we should look out for it is the old and decrepid, right behind them is the new guys or guys not in yet, our forefathers did it for us. wheres the brotherhood?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wiresmith said:


> there doing the same work they should get the same minimum pay and *benefits* were f***ing union.


 Actually, they're doing work JW's, and apprentices used to do, because they're cheaper. Everything except termination, testing, or, actual electrical work. They do staple/plug in Reloc's, and hang fixtures in warehouses though. 

There's only so much work to go around, and the old timers are getting squeezed by the younger cheaper labor influx.
Like you said before, it's all about the dues.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

joebanana said:


> Actually, they're doing work JW's, and apprentices used to do, because they're cheaper. Everything except termination, testing, or, actual electrical work. They do staple/plug in Reloc's, and hang fixtures in warehouses though.
> 
> There's only so much work to go around, and the old timers are getting squeezed by the younger cheaper labor influx.
> Like you said before, it's all about the dues.


yeah, i actually think it hurts the people(JW's) that support the program about as much as it does the cw's. it is lowering all of our wages but the CW's are disproportionately hurt more. the whole flawed logic of the program is based on racing to the bottom (who can pay there guys less) how is this a union program? higher wages means more non-union guys will come work with us, if our wages are not much better, we pays dues and have to put up with all the other union BS why would anyone want to switch from non union to union? i honestly see no angle where this program could be beneficial, but only detrimental and i believe very detrimental.

How about we put more focus on actually training our guys so we can be more productive per dollar of our wage package(entire labor cost), there was just a thread recently from i think a fifth year about to top out and talking about how little confidence he has in his abilities. our problem is not our wages are too high its because our false confidence is so high, we do not train our people as well as we claim, in my opinion our training that i have seen is shameful, i will add i have heard about some locals with exceptional training, but i am talking in generalities here, overall we suck.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wiresmith said:


> yeah, i actually think it hurts the people(JW's) that support the program about as much as it does the cw's. it is lowering all of our wages but the CW's are disproportionately hurt more. the whole flawed logic of the program is based on racing to the bottom (who can pay there guys less) how is this a union program? higher wages means more non-union guys will come work with us, if our wages are not much better, we pays dues and have to put up with all the other union BS why would anyone want to switch from non union to union? i honestly see no angle where this program could be beneficial, but only detrimental and i believe very detrimental.
> 
> How about we put more focus on actually training our guys so we can be more productive per dollar of our wage package(entire labor cost), there was just a thread recently from i think a fifth year about to top out and talking about how little confidence he has in his abilities. our problem is not our wages are too high its because our false confidence is so high, we do not train our people as well as we claim, in my opinion our training that i have seen is shameful, i will add i have heard about some locals with exceptional training, but i am talking in generalities here, overall we suck.



I tend to agree with your assessment on essential aspects of training being less than what would be expected in our field of work.
But, CW's are basically high dollar laborers.
Why pay one JW to kick pipe in a trench, when you can get two CW's for the same price? The ones I've met are making more money than they could, or have, anywhere else. And they don't have to know anything.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

joebanana said:


> I tend to agree with your assessment on essential aspects of training being less than what would be expected in our field of work.
> But, CW's are basically high dollar laborers.
> Why pay one JW to kick pipe in a trench, when you can get two CW's for the same price? The ones I've met are making more money than they could, or have, anywhere else. And they don't have to know anything.


Are CWs helpers not apprentices?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Wiresmith said:


> your extending the apprenticeship program and length of time they are at lower wages, your taking food out of there kids mouths. or at least money out of there pocket, a little exaggeration never hurt though, if theres work in the local for the cw theres work for them being an apprentice let them in now, not later. wheres the brotherhood? if theres one group we should look out for it is the old and decrepid, right behind them is the new guys or guys not in yet, our forefathers did it for us. wheres the brotherhood?


It starts with you and me. Not the BA, not the contractor. We forgo so many of our rights and privileges out of ignorance. Stewards that will stand by and watch as you get bent over, because they are job scared and won't stand toe to toe with management as is their Right and Duty. We need to be stepping up and looking out. We need to be more militant and aggressive in protecting each other.

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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> Are CWs helpers not apprentices?


Basically. The program is supposed to be a "pathway" to an apprenticeship. But, when there's more CW's on a project than JW's, there appears to be an ulterior motive.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

joebanana said:


> Basically. The program is supposed to be a "pathway" to an apprenticeship. But, when there's more CW's on a project than JW's, there appears to be an ulterior motive.


i will try to find an agreement in pdf. but the ones i read do not read like that, they are completely separate programs than A membership, its the lower wage side of the union, they say to retake market share. the only market they take is from JMAN and apprentices. traditional jman and apprentices should be doing all of the electrical work, we should be able to kick that pipe in quicker and better /per dollar of labor cost, we should be able to manage and organize better to be lower total job cost while still being paid more.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wiresmith said:


> i will try to find an agreement in pdf. but the ones i read do not read like that, they are completely separate programs than A membership, its the lower wage side of the union, they say to retake market share. the only market they take is from JMAN and apprentices. traditional jman and apprentices should be doing all of the electrical work, we should be able to kick that pipe in quicker and better /per dollar of labor cost, we should be able to manage and organize better to be lower total job cost while still being paid more.


That's the way it used to be. The CW/CE's on the jobs would be there to take out the cardboard from light fixtures, and "run material", then when they were standing around, they got recruited to assembling fixtures, then hanging them, then running Reloc's, and MC, all stuff apprentices used to do. It's different everywhere, but, that's the trend I've been seeing.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

CW- Construction Wireman

CE-Construction Electrician

if anyone had the wool pulled over there eyes as to what the intent of the program is that's on them. they don't call them electrical laborers, there called wireman.


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

Learning a lot here. Appreciate the replies, fellas.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

If it wasn't for the contractors needing apprentices on prevailing wage jobs, they should just do away with the first two years of the "A" apprenticeship. Make everyone go through the CW/CE program. 

You would have a more well rounded electricians, especially if they weren't working in the trade before. Nothing like learning the trade from the beginning. I'm not in buisiness, but there's no way I'd pay a guy $100,000 a year with only five years experience. It puts our contractors at an unfair disadvantage. 

I guess if your local market share is 80% or greater you don't need the program. Our local has always had a residential program. We called it the "B" program, but the international would still consider them "A" members. Everyone's pension was the same. The pay was less, but the benifits were the same minus the annuity. Back then they were killing it. Everything right down to garden apartments. You can forget it now. Even with a residential program you won't get any work like that unless there's public money on it. You can't compete with the low wages today. They have high rise housing jobs going up all around me now all with $12-20 electricians. You can't even get a Union contractor to waste their time bidding it. 

It sorta pushes the CW/CE guys into larger projects, but there are still limits to where your allowed to use them. Either way I got no problems with the classification. I can say for a fact that having the CW/CE guys that we have working right now has kept quite a few JWs working. It is to bad that they would have had better benefits if they were "B" guys. We can't all be chiefs, and their time will go quick. It did for me.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

cabletie said:


> If it wasn't for the contractors needing apprentices on prevailing wage jobs, they should just do away with the first two years of the "A" apprenticeship. Make everyone go through the CW/CE program.
> 
> .


Here we have the Residential program but very few contractors do residential work, but having this added workforce has allowed our local to pick up open shop men, young workers coming out of high school and the military holding them in the trade with a path to "A" program. Which has allowed the local to grow and take work that often was only completed by open shops.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I'd like to see more CE's turn out to JIW. I've known guys that have been CE's for twice as long as the apprenticeship.

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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

TGGT said:


> I'd like to see more CE's turn out to JIW. I've known guys that have been CE's for twice as long as the apprenticeship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Why do you think that is, TGGT ?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

ZatDevil27 said:


> Why do you think that is, TGGT ?


Lack of discipline to study and take classes. Lack of encouragement from the hall and the membership. Fear that if they make more they'll work less.

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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Probably half the journeymen out of our hall went through the "B" program. They only take in maybe ten first year apprentices a year. So you can either wait, or get started with your career. 

Back when I went through there were quite a few guys that were happy where they were. There were companies that did nothing but residential/commercial jobs and never hired a journeyman. Most had a job for life if they stayed, or until the company closed. 

Most had no intention on staying "B". Some were just held back because they couldn't pass the changeover test after five years. Then the changeover test was an electrical test. Mostly theory. If you went through "B" school or other formal classes you could pass. Although most said it was rigged, I didn't think so. 

The things that are different today, is that it's mandatory to do the CW school. So the changeover test is just an interview. A technicality. An asking permission. 

The other difference is the benifits. Before it was all the same minus the Annuity. We had one health plan and everyone was on it. Everyone paid the same and collected the same local pensions and international pension. Now there's basically three tiers for health. I'm not sure about the pension for the CEs. Still only $.25c an hour for the CEs annuity. That's voted on by themselves. If they want to raise it, it'll come from their take home pay. 

The only other difference was apprenticeship was only four years. So if you went the whole route, you did two years "B" apprenticeship, worked three years as residential wireman then did the last two years as an "A" apprentice. 

If you came in the side door you passed a test that you didn't do the first two years of the apprenticeship, but still did your five years as residential wireman. That changed befor the programs name change (CW/CE) no skipping the first two years. Everyone goes through the classes if they are going to changeover. 

That being said I know of one guy that's not doing the school and has no intention changing over. Damn Millennials! I think he has other plans of easy money.


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## ZatDevil27 (Mar 12, 2016)

Just started work this past week and I got to say, I really respect what you guys do. Truly. I mean it.

Thus far, after a couple of days (started Thursday), I really enjoy the work. Plus, my JMan's are really cool, helpful, professional guys. And I've learned quite a bit in just 2 days too. Particularly one thing that I've learned is that I'm out of shape lol (as I type this, I am sore from head to toe hahaha). Clearly the office job I've been working the past year (complete with air conditioning) has hindered me a bit lol. But it's all good. 

All right, update over. Thanks for your time, guys.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

So when your a cw after you get all your hours in , is the program set up for you to be indentured and start the apprentiship as a 1st year apprentice .

Or do you have to start the application process all over again .

What’s the process when your a cw to become a 1st year apprentice .

Our local dosnt have cw 
We have labor histor .

You do two years Labor histor schooling , you wrk for contractors 
And then , you start as a first year apprentice as long as you get good reviews .


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> So when your a cw after you get all your hours in , is the program set up for you to be indentured and start the apprentiship as a 1st year apprentice .
> 
> Or do you have to start the application process all over again .
> 
> ...


The CE/CW program is an alternative path to JIW. Our local requires 8 years of life time OTJ hours.

CW1-5, then CE1-3.

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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

TGGT said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > So when your a cw after you get all your hours in , is the program set up for you to be indentured and start the apprentiship as a 1st year apprentice .
> ...


So at the end of the cw program will be be a journeyman , ?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> So at the end of the cw program will be be a journeyman , ?


If you have a state license here, yes. 8 years is a long time if you're starting from the bottom and don't take any classes.

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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

TGGT said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > So at the end of the cw program will be be a journeyman , ?
> ...


So when your in the cw program 
You go to school aswell 

And are you officially indentured apprentice .

What the diff between cw and the regular apprentiship program .

Is the wages diff and benies packages


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> So when your in the cw program
> You go to school aswell
> 
> And are you officially indentured apprentice .
> ...


You CAN take classes, you are not required to as a ce/cw. The wage rates in our contract are fixed, they are not tied to JIW wage rates.

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