# 120V LED tubes



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Has anyone had any experience with the Type B 120V LED replacement F8 tubes?

I realize that they are too new to have longevity record.

How where they to install? Any issues with rewiring the holders to 120V.
Any concerns about future replacement availability?
Generally, any and all opinions regarding the use of these 120v verses using regular ballast type LED tubes


TIA


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I have used them several times in lights that I control the maintenance on. It has been less than one year so I cannot vouch for the longevity. There might be a problem if the skill set of the maintenance worker does not realize that the fixtures were re-wired for 120 volts and go back to T8 fluorescent tubes. I am sure we all seen people installing T12 lamps into T8 fixtures and visa-versa. An advantage is you do not have to worry about ballast compatibility and the plug and play type of LED tubes.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I install around a 1000 most in a huge cold room. Had maybe 4 that failed instantly and a couple in the first week. The rest were still working 2 years later when i left.

The Leds do a lot better in cold weather then florescent which struggle to start (even the expensive freezer ones). Another advantage is they are plastic which in a food grade area is worth it even if it cost a little more.

We did add sticker inside all the fixtures saying that the unit was wired 120v


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Make sure you get the type that can be wired either end-to-end or side-by-side. Makes it easier to wire the sockets due to how they were originally wired. Also get the ballast by-pass type. To me, it defeats the purpose to keep the ballast.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> There might be a problem if the skill set of the maintenance worker does not realize that the fixtures were re-wired for 120 volts and go back to T8 fluorescent tubes. I am sure we all seen people installing T12 lamps into T8 fixtures and visa-versa. An advantage is you do not have to worry about ballast compatibility and the plug and play type of LED tubes.


The potential use of wrong lamps is one of my concerns. Even with the labels, sure as sh#t someone will install the wrong lamps. as long as I look after the building, that wont happen. But we all know when there is management change, there is a possibility that they can get rid of you with one call :sad:
The reason I'm looking at the 120s, is the ballasts in the fixtures are not compatible. Substantial savings to the customer by not having to pay for all new ballasts


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

I’ve installed hundreds of them with almost no failures. The only thing is, and they may all be this way bu the power is just to one of the tombstones. The other tombstone just holds the lamp in place so if you install the lamp backwards it won’t come on.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> I’ve installed hundreds of them with almost no failures. The only thing is, and they may all be this way bu the power is just to one of the tombstones. The other tombstone just holds the lamp in place so if you install the lamp backwards it won’t come on.



see post #4


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

How does one say Attorney in Spanish? Or in my case Hawaiian, Chinese, Tagalog, Portuguese, Japanese, and Spanish?

I won't wire those. I was asking about some at a strictly lighting wholesale house a few weeks back. They told me they are steering away from direct wire LED tube sales cause there have been "incidents" .


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Abogado.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wcord said:


> The potential use of wrong lamps is one of my concerns. Even with the labels, sure as sh#t someone will install the wrong lamps. as long as I look after the building, that wont happen. But we all know when there is management change, there is a possibility that they can get rid of you with one call :sad:
> The reason I'm looking at the 120s, is the ballasts in the fixtures are not compatible. Substantial savings to the customer by not having to pay for all new ballasts


I've done several thousand and sold probably 10K. Make sure you buy end to end wired tubes, avoid H/N on the same end. Only a matter of time before you encounter shunted tombstones and then you will have to change them. 

Buy from a reputable source. Make sure they are certified. Investigate the certification, there are a lot of counterfeit out there. 

Future wrong tubes should not be an issue. Certified products come with new retrofit labels that are to be installed with the tubes showing how they are wired.

Out of curiosity, I installed a few fluorescent tubes across 120V just to see what would happen. Nothing.

Just in case you missed it the first time, certified products from a reputable source.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> How does one say Attorney in Spanish? Or in my case Hawaiian, Chinese, Tagalog, Portuguese, Japanese, and Spanish?
> 
> I won't wire those. I was asking about some at a strictly lighting wholesale house a few weeks back. They told me they are steering away from direct wire LED tube sales cause there have been "incidents" .


This has me curious. Any more info?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

As a side note, of the 1000's tubes I installed I've had 1 failure after about a year in service. Of the tubes I sold, I have had not 1 warranty claim over several years.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I too, have installed somewhere close to 1000 of these LED tubes and I've mostly got nothing but good things to say about them, AS LONG as you are using a reputable name brand. 

The first LED tube job I did was for a lighting company several years ago when these first hit the market. No name brand on the boxes, only a few Chinese symbols. We had failures. The job probably had 3-4 thousand installed and I probably replaced close to 20 or 30 over the next few months after the job was done. 

Then for another company, I think we used the GE and ESPEN brands. 100's of stores across the country. I have no idea how many failures there were, but from my experience they were minimal. I even put a couple up in my garage and their still kicking just fine. 

Make sure to include new non-shunted tombstones. Don't even bother trying to make the existing one worktait's just better to use new stuff.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Like all electronic products, I expect them to have a short life. They will probably be as bad or worse than the electronic ballasts they are eliminating. They're throw away junk IMO.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Like all electronic products, I expect them to have a short life. They will probably be as bad or worse than the electronic ballasts they are eliminating. They're throw away junk IMO.


I want you name 6 things that are on the market right now that wouldn't be considered throw away junk. For electrical work. 

I tell everyone that LEDs are just the new lighting systems that are getting installed and everything else is becoming obsolete. I also tell them that the lifespan is usually between 1-5 years. The upside is that they are energy efficient and cut down on maintenance costs.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> I want you name 6 things that are on the market right now that wouldn't be considered throw away junk. For electrical work.
> 
> I tell everyone that LEDs are just the new lighting systems that are getting installed and everything else is becoming obsolete. I also tell them that the lifespan is usually between 1-5 years. The upside is that they are energy efficient and cut down on maintenance costs.



I consider anything LED to be throwaway, whether it's a $9 closet light or a stadium flood light.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> Out of curiosity, I installed a few fluorescent tubes across 120V just to see what would happen. Nothing.


Never thought to test it but im glad someone did.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

MTW said:


> I consider anything LED to be throwaway, whether it's a $9 closet light or a stadium flood light.


How about these.?

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/radion-xr30-g5-pro-led-light-fixture-ecotech-marine.html


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MTW said:


> I consider anything LED to be throwaway, whether it's a $9 closet light or a stadium flood light.


Forget the lasts 25 years sales pitch and look on the bright side. The sealed ones don't leak, They work in cold weather, they survive vibration, there's no glass to break, you can throw them in the back of the van pile crap on them and dig them out later and best of all you don't contain mercury so they not a pain in the arse to get ride of the old ones.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Did you know the first batch of these tubes would take hot on one side and neutral on the other? So you had to wire the tombstones accordingly...lol

You would crap your pants when you accidentally wired one up wrong and it blew up in your hands.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MHElectric said:


> Did you know the first batch of these tubes would take hot on one side and neutral on the other? So you had to wire the tombstones accordingly...lol
> 
> You would crap your pants when you accidentally wired one up wrong and it blew up in your hands.


I thought that the first generation had hot and neutral on the two pins of one end? Or is that what you mean?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Hot on one side, neutral on the other. They would have a P or something on one end, and that's where you put power. 

You had to wire the tombstones accordingly. And after 10hrs straight, you would sometimes forget which side you did...especially if you changed your ladder around.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

wcord said:


> Has anyone had any experience with the Type B 120V LED replacement F8 tubes?
> 
> I realize that they are too new to have longevity record.
> 
> ...


As you say, too new to say. I had 18 of the older style that used the ballast in my living room. The ballasts failed often. I replaced them with the magnetic strip version. Thus far I love color & color rendering. Energy consumption is sweet. They are dim able.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

I have about 500 Topaz ballast bypass T8 48” at 14 watt. 2 years no failures at 16 hours of use/day. 

200 Topaz ballast bypass T5 48” 28 watt. 1 year at 16 hours per day with no failures. 

25 Topaz ballast bypass 8’ T12 (forgot the wattage). 2 years almost always in use. No failures. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eliasgarcia22 (May 6, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> I have used them several times in lights that I control the maintenance on. It has been less than one year so I cannot vouch for the longevity. There might be a problem if the skill set of the maintenance worker does not realize that the fixtures were re-wired for 120 volts and go back to T8 fluorescent tubes. I am sure we all seen people installing T12 lamps into T8 fixtures and visa-versa. An advantage is you do not have to worry about ballast compatibility and the plug and play type of LED tubes.


I agree.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

batcave said:


> Evening, got a Question regarding the 309 A eletrical & Maintnance Exam. I know the exam is based on open book, Canadian eletrical code,part 1 2018. I was wondering if the Eletrical Quick Reference booklet is allowed aswell..as i find it very helpfull.?


Might wanna post this in the Canadian code section instead of lighting design.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Batcave. I moved your posts to the Canadian section of the forum.

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/309-eletrical-maintnance-exam-281188/


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Make sure you get the type that can be wired either end-to-end or side-by-side. Makes it easier to wire the sockets due to how they were originally wired. Also get the ballast by-pass type. To me, it defeats the purpose to keep the ballast.


I ran a bank of lights with a PQ meter with fluroescent T8's, hybrid LED T8's on ballast, and the same troffers with the ballasts removed 120V on the hybrids.

The energy savings by removing the ballast that essentially created waste heat was about 17% for the LED tubes we were using.

Overall energy savings was about 60%...by running the LEDs continuous and getting rid of the lighting control system that would run occupation sensors and work hour times.

The hybrids wouldn't run on the fixtures connected to the energy conservation system, so we removed the ballasts from those. The regular reflected ceiling troffers worked fine with ballasts intact, yet consume more energy that those wired 120V.



joe-nwt said:


> This has me curious. Any more info?





gpop said:


> Never thought to test it but im glad someone did.


I ran into several tubes that had the pin wiring pinched between the aluminum heat sink and the end caps. That was a shocking experience for me, luckily, since I was the run doing the "acceptance" testing for our facility. I had a case open with the Consumer Product Safety Commission for the tubes after we found the shoddy construction and counterfeit UL labeling.

*Caveat Emptor.*


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

A Little Short said:


> Make sure you get the type that can be wired either end-to-end or side-by-side. Makes it easier to wire the sockets due to how they were originally wired. Also get the ballast by-pass type. To me, it defeats the purpose to keep the ballast.


If you can get this type you may be able to run a hot to one end and the neutral to the other. This way only one wire connection at each end, when someone screws up and puts a reg lamp in no completed circuit.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Does anybody take a light meter before and after? To me many areas seem darker when using the comparable LED to T8 or PSMH.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> Does anybody take a light meter before and after? To me many areas seem darker when using the comparable LED to T8 or PSMH.


You have to watch the lumen output on the tubes. A lot of them are 1600-1800 lumens which often isn't enough. You can get tubes that are around 2400 lumens which will be brighter than worn out T8's. Manufacturers also play fast and loose with equivalences so take a look at lumen output on the fixtures replacing MH. I've found that an LED that is around 21000 -23000 lumens is a good replacement for 400W metal halide.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Hot on one side, neutral on the other. They would have a P or something on one end, and that's where you put power.
> 
> You had to wire the tombstones accordingly. And after 10hrs straight, you would sometimes forget which side you did...especially if you changed your ladder around.


I just retrofitted an old T12 96" fixture to use two T8 style ballast bypass LED lamps. There was no mention nor did I even check to see if the tube needed a special configuration for 120 volts?
I just put power to both ends. Neutral to one end and hot to the other end.
They worked.
Never considered the LED tube requiring neutral/hot positioning in the fixture. How would this even matter? I mean 120 volts is 120 volts.

I still have 8 fixtures to retrofit.


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## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

For those that might wonder what will happen if you install a regular florescent lamp into a fixture rewired for LED ballast bypass lamps. Nothing, they don't light even dimly and they certainly blow up.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

rjniles said:


> For those that might wonder what will happen if you install a regular florescent lamp into a fixture rewired for LED ballast bypass lamps. Nothing, they don't light even dimly and* they certainly blow up.
> *
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


Typo?


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## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> Typo?


Yes typo, they certainly do not blow up.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

And it makes no difference what end gets what. Hot and neutral can go either end.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> I just retrofitted an old T12 96" fixture to use two T8 style ballast bypass LED lamps. There was no mention nor did I even check to see if the tube needed a special configuration for 120 volts?
> I just put power to both ends. Neutral to one end and hot to the other end.
> They worked.
> Never considered the LED tube requiring neutral/hot positioning in the fixture. How would this even matter? I mean 120 volts is 120 volts.
> ...


You areprobably using the newer style LED tubes where you rewire the tombstone with non-shunted and have a hot & nuertral wire coming off one tombstone and then the other is just a dummy tombstone to hold the lamp in place right? 

Much different than the type I mentioned in my other post. LED has gone through a few different generations now and the type I was talking about were some of the early retrofit tubes to get mass released on the market. They have since moved to different styles. I doubt they still make those.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> _*I've done several thousand and sold probably 10K. Make sure you buy end to end wired tubes, avoid H/N on the same end. Only a matter of time before you encounter shunted tombstones and then you will have to change them. *_
> 
> Buy from a reputable source. Make sure they are certified. Investigate the certification, there are a lot of counterfeit out there.
> 
> ...


I was about to type the same answer and found that you had nailed it. To me, single end wiring is a thing of the past. Why encounter the extra time and headache of having to replace shunted lamp holders?!


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Forge Boyz said:


> _*You have to watch the lumen output on the tubes. A lot of them are 1600-1800 lumens which often isn't enough. You can get tubes that are around 2400 lumens which will be brighter than worn out T8's. Manufacturers also play fast and loose with equivalences so take*_ a look at lumen output on the fixtures replacing MH. I've found that an LED that is around 21000 -23000 lumens is a good replacement for 400W metal halide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I have even run into the Chicom junk that is labeled 2400 lumens but puts out more like 1700.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The Sylvania and E-conolight direct wire tubes are double end feed. The Toggled brand are single end feed.

If you happen to install a flouresent tube with 120 volts on each pin on one end, you will short out the cathode and it will burn out instantly. Will it blow up? Probably not. But it will be bright and make a loud noise for a second.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> You areprobably using the newer style LED tubes where you rewire the tombstone with non-shunted and have a hot & nuertral wire coming off one tombstone and then the other is just a dummy tombstone to hold the lamp in place right?
> 
> Much different than the type I mentioned in my other post. LED has gone through a few different generations now and the type I was talking about were some of the early retrofit tubes to get mass released on the market. They have since moved to different styles. I doubt they still make those.


No dummy end. Both ends together read 120 volt.
I just wired the spring loaded tombstones hot on one end and neutral on the other. 96" fixture.
I just made sure each end had power. One end had red and blue and the other yellow, white and black. I think. I still have several more to do.....lol

It was simple and I did not have to move any wires. Just grabbed all on one end and grabbed all on the other.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MTW said:


> The Sylvania and E-conolight direct wire tubes are double end feed. The Toggled brand are single end feed.
> 
> If you happen to install a flouresent tube with 120 volts on each pin on one end, you will short out the cathode and it will burn out instantly. Will it blow up? Probably not. But it will be bright and make a loud noise for a second.


Part of a certified retrofit is to install labeling that indicates the fixture has been modified for LED and to *not* install fluorescent lamps. Any certified LED product will come with these labels. Label to be placed in an area conspicuous when relamping.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> No dummy end. Both ends together read 120 volt.
> I just wired the spring loaded tombstones hot on one end and neutral on the other. 96" fixture.
> I just made sure each end had power. One end had red and blue and the other yellow, white and black. I think. I still have several more to do.....lol
> 
> It was simple and I did not have to move any wires. Just grabbed all on one end and grabbed all on the other.


Gotcha. Yeah, those are the ones I was talking about. I didn't realize they were still making them. 

I thought the newer style with the non-shunted to tubes had taking over. 


joe-nwt said:


> Part of a certified retrofit is to install labeling that indicates the fixture has been modified for LED and to *not* install fluorescent lamps. Any certified LED product will come with these labels. Label to be placed in an area conspicuous when relamping.


You are 100% correct my friend. 

Now, think how many millions of them got installed before they started putting those stickers in the retrofit boxes.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MHElectric said:


> Now, think how many millions of them got installed before they started putting those stickers in the retrofit boxes.


That is true, there were installations prior to the requirement for certification.

As I recall the LED craze started with lamp-over-ballast lamps being available first followed by the bypass (retrofit) lamps. The first retrofit lamps I was involved with came without labels. While a true standard for these products was not yet available, there were TIL's (technical information literature) addressing the new products issued in Canada. TIL's are not an actual standard, they are an interim guideline but they contained much of the content that would form the eventual standard. The TIL concerning ballast bypass lamps already contained the requirement for labeling. 

I was in contact with my inspection department regarding these tubes before I installed the first one. I'm at the stage in my career business-wise were I don't really want to test my liability insurance or recover from litigation for installing defective products. But I recognized the potential to make a few bucks if one got in early enough. As a side, our energy rates are extremely high here and people have no problem spending money to cut consumption.

Anyway, I was able to begin installing the tubes, AND printing my own labels, UNDER a permit, until a true standard requiring labels in the box was developed. 

Some might cringe at the permit part but we are modifying an approved product by removing the ballast/rewiring so it might be an expensive case to argue. 

So, yes, there are likely millions of lamps installed without labels, and maybe without certification.

How has the process unfolded in the USA?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> That is true, there were installations prior to the requirement for certification.
> 
> As I recall the LED craze started with lamp-over-ballast lamps being available first followed by the bypass (retrofit) lamps. The first retrofit lamps I was involved with came without labels. While a true standard for these products was not yet available, there were TIL's (technical information literature) addressing the new products issued in Canada. TIL's are not an actual standard, they are an interim guideline but they contained much of the content that would form the eventual standard. The TIL concerning ballast bypass lamps already contained the requirement for labeling.
> 
> ...


Interesting post Joe.

Here was my experience: When the LED retrofit wave began to hit, everyone was swimmng in uncharted territory. There really wasn't a set standard with installations or with products and everything was being figured out on the jobs. Cutting edge is the way to put it. 

I was sub-contracting for a lighting company that was landing big projects from green "Energy consultant/Lighting Consultant" companyies. At that time there was SOOO much work coming up, it was like this enormous wave that had just broken through. Pretty exciting, but there were lots of product failures, lots of learning experiences. Basically we were all making it up as we went. 

I can understand your reasoning behind pulling the permits - more or less, liability. Nobody can fault you for wanting to play it safe. 

The boom has probably come and gone (I think) but the work is still out there. Now it's starting to be changing older generation LEDs for the newer generations. It's a good business to be in, as lighting doesn't seem to be going anywhere soon. But I don't think the jobs where you could change out older T12 for new LED and drop their energy consumption by half are still out there. They are probably few and far between. 

Not sure if I answered your question....im just kinda rambling here. :vs_laugh:


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I agree the boom is over. We still have a few procrastinators here. Eventually, when fluorescent products start to dry up they will have no choice.

A few weeks ago I tried to dump a full case of new T8 ballasts at a ridiculously low price on our local buy/sell. Not one reply. 

Ramble away, I enjoy your conversation on the matter.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Here in the US the lamps came with stickers in the master box. For linear tubes there would be a stack of stickers in the box and the supply house would always forget to give them out. The U lamps came with the sticker and replacement socket with each lamp. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

VELOCI3 said:


> Here in the US the lamps came with stickers in the master box. For linear tubes there would be a stack of stickers in the box and the supply house would always forget to give them out. *The U lamps came with the sticker and replacement socket with each lamp.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be very handy!


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I agree the boom is over. We still have a few procrastinators here. Eventually, when fluorescent products start to dry up they will have no choice.
> 
> A few weeks ago I tried to dump a full case of new T8 ballasts at a ridiculously low price on our local buy/sell. Not one reply.
> 
> Ramble away, I enjoy your conversation on the matter.


From a small business point of view, I never wanted to pursue medium to large scale projects. My interest was in small local businesses. Plenty of them out here that were still using flourescent lighting. The only time I did bigger jobs was as an employee or sub-contractor.

Eventually, your right. They will all need to change over. But a lot of small businesses won't go that route till they have to. I gave away a bunch of cases of top of the line HIGH efficiency 28w T8 lamps to my church. They weren't doing me any good sitting in my shed, took forever for me just to sell 1 case, and I had close to 8-10 just laying around. Figured somebody else could use them more than I could. 

As a side note - it was really REALLY hard for me to break into the lighting market as a small contractor. Seemed like most of the business was on this large scale "40+ stores in 13 states" type of contracts. Nothing a small company could easily handle. All on pushed schedules. All night work. All travel. 

Ultimately, it was another one of my ventures that never really worked out. Most of my time here was working for others. But there's still plenty of opportunity for the right person. Maintenance contracts has mostly become extinct but the retrofitting jobs are still there.


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