# AFCI "Devices" 210.12(A)



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Yes, you're stuck installing AFCI's in those cases. Just make sure you remove them after the final inspection to spare yourself of any callbacks later on. :thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> Yes, you're stuck installing AFCI's in those cases. Just make sure you remove them after the final inspection to spare yourself of any callbacks later on. :thumbsup:


Unless I just face the switching into the garage (I'm thinking)

Same thing goes for 3 way switch down stairwell to unfinished 
basement lights...stuck there too.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> Unless I just face the switching into the garage (I'm thinking)
> 
> Same thing goes for 3 way switch down stairwell to unfinished
> basement lights...stuck there too.


In both cases, face them in and the problem is solved. Why would you have the light switch outside of the basement stairs anyway? :001_huh:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> In both cases, face them in and the problem is solved. Why would you have the light switch outside of the basement stairs anyway? :001_huh:


I wouldn't. I put them the same place most others do...it's the code 
change is now saying "Device" and not just the load it's switching.

Do ya foller me now?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lighterup said:


> I wouldn't. I put them the same place most others do...it's the code
> change is now saying "Device" and not just the load it's switching.
> 
> Do ya foller me now?


I do, but there's no requirement for basement lights to be AFCI protected if the switches are in the basement stairwell.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> I do, but there's no requirement for basement lights to be AFCI protected if the switches are in the basement stairwell.


I'll buy that..the question is , will the inspector.

He'll say the finished stairs is part of the homes living space...
I don't know.

We just started this code Jan 2016 and I have missed a lot of 
work in the last year , so I'm playing catch up. I have several
approved new builds and I guess I'm gonna find out.


But back to your point...there is no code saying outdoor lights
garage lights etc need to be afci , but since the device is in house
my OP was asking if this means afci is required ????

I will be around. I will intentionally NOT afci these areas just
for shi** & giggles to see what happens.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

lighterup said:


> I'll buy that..the question is , will the inspector.
> 
> He'll say the finished stairs is part of the homes living space...
> I don't know.
> ...


That switch in a living space has been arcfault requried before 2017 code.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> That switch in a living space has been arcfault requried before 2017 code.


I believe he said it was the 2014 he was reading from.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I believe he said it was the 2014 he was reading from.


We are on 17 already.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Furnace switches , which fire marshals often want _outside_ of furnace area's , suffer the same code related fate....~CS~


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Furnace switches , which fire marshals often want _outside_ of furnace area's , suffer the same code related fate....~CS~


Then you install AFCI protection in that scenario. What's the issue?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Furnace switches , which fire marshals often want _outside_ of furnace area's , suffer the same code related fate....~CS~


another reason not to go to Vermont


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I have NOT arc faulted and passed many inspections under the 2011 NEC
in the following (so far)..

* Garages - both receptacle circuit and lighting circuits - 
The switching for garage lights is normally inside the doorway to the 
garage , usually a Mud Room.
* Outdoor lighting - same situation - lights may be outdoors , but device 
(switch) controlling lights is inside , at a man door 
* Unfinished basements.
* 120 volt air handlers (these are usually 9 out of 10 times in basements)
* Any equipment in unfinished basements (water softeners , power vents
sump pumps).
* Stairwells leading to basements - finished or unfinished- 6 or more risers

Like I said ...I have not arc faulted any of these YET , but now having seen in the 2104 NEC the word "devices" is shaded in 210.12A , I'm thinking much of these may have to be.

The reason I see "*devices*" as different is because in the previous codes
we were AFCI protecting "*Outlets*"per definition in Article 100 I .
For clarity - by definition an outlet is not just "receptacles" , it's defining "load"
which is taking electrical potential and making something useful of it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> Then you install AFCI protection in that scenario. What's the issue?


Nuisance tripping that leaves a house without heat. I'd rather not install an AFCI than deal with that scenario.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Nuisance tripping that leaves a house without heat. I'd rather not install an AFCI than deal with that scenario.


if required, we'll install AFCI protection.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> if required, we'll install AFCI protection.


Well aren't you special. Go back to MH with all the other perfect electricians.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> if required, we'll install AFCI protection,
> but bitch about it when it causes us problems


fify


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Well aren't you special. Go back to MH with all the other perfect electricians.


It wouldn't pass inspection if we didn't install AFCI protection.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> It wouldn't pass inspection if we didn't install AFCI protection.



No kidding, it wouldn't here either. 

That's why we don't get inspections if we don't have to. :shifty:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> No kidding, it wouldn't here either.
> 
> That's why we don't get inspections if we don't have to. :shifty:


We are required to get inspections on most of the work we do in my area.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Maybe you're buying fake products and your workmanship is lacking. I've not had a problem with arcfaults tripping for years. That's why I install these.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> We are required to get inspections on most of the work we do in my area.


we are required to get inspections on ALL work we do, but does it always happen?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> We are required to get inspections on most of the work we do in my area.


So are we, but we rarely do. :thumbsup: Most electricians I know and work with avoid them at all costs. This is because the inspectors and building departments are very difficult to deal with, like having a 4-hour inspection window. Never mind the made up code rules.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

backstay said:


> Maybe you're buying fake products and your workmanship is lacking. I've not had a problem with arcfaults tripping for years.


I agree. I don't understand how some are having so many issues with arc Fault protection.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

backstay said:


> Maybe you're buying fake products and your workmanship is lacking. I've not had a problem with arcfaults tripping for years. That's why I install these.


It must be great to be perfect. I have had issues with them, as well as everyone I know in the trade. There is a very good reason why AFCI's are so hated.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> So are we, but we rarely do. :thumbsup: Most electricians I know and work with avoid them at all costs. This is because the inspectors and building departments are very difficult to deal with, like having a 4-hour inspection window. Never mind the made up code rules.


We have challenges with electrical inspectors in my area sometimes. We work through them and don't avoid them.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> We have challenges with electrical inspectors in my area sometimes. We work through them and don't avoid them.



This forum isn't really for you. The perfect electricians are at Mike Holt's.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MTW said:


> It must be great to be perfect. I have had issues with them, as well as everyone I know in the trade. There is a very good reason why AFCI's are so hated.


Oh, I had issues too. Most were breaker failures, but not for several years. I had a couple of ground/neutrals touching in devices. That was because it was never an issue before, except for ground faults. Attention to detail when inserting devices has eliminated those. Perfect, no...but damn close:thumbsup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> This forum isn't really for you. The perfect electricians are at Mike Holt's.


I like both forums.:thumbsup:


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## Skipbayless (May 19, 2014)

Inspectors are only required in my area when the work performed is over $2500 worth of work. Also someone mentioned "We are in NEC 2017". As long as I've been an electrician the enforceable code has been a few classes behind. Example; we are currently just beginning to use 2014.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> So are we, but we rarely do. :thumbsup: *Most electricians I know and work with avoid them at all costs*. This is because the inspectors and building departments are very difficult to deal with, like having a 4-hour inspection window. Never mind the made up code rules.


This is just the case in so many locations, if it's admitted or not.


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## socket2ya (Oct 27, 2016)

Chris1971 said:


> I agree. I don't understand how some are having so many issues with arc Fault protection.


There's no way that you love these breakers as much as you let on.
What about when you change a couple receptacles in a AFCI required areas. Take the panel cover off and it's chock full of wires, you can barely pull on the neutral wire to trace back and take off the terminal strip, and then the screw is rusted tight. Once you have the breaker installed you do the arc-fault prayer and hope that there aren't branch circuit neutrals mixed in the house. Then you hand the home-owner a bill for $500 to change a couple plugs and listen to the crying. Then you go back home and hope the maid's old vacuum doesn't trip the breaker (I still get that one once in a while). 
They can ram these things up our asses, but please, lets not act like we enjoy it.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

socket2ya said:


> There's no way that you love these breakers as much as you let on.
> What about when you change a couple receptacles in a AFCI required areas. Take the panel cover off and it's chock full of wires, you can barely pull on the neutral wire to trace back and take off the terminal strip, and then the screw is rusted tight. Once you have the breaker installed you do the arc-fault prayer and hope that there aren't branch circuit neutrals mixed in the house. Then you hand the home-owner a bill for $500 to change a couple plugs and listen to the crying. Then you go back home and hope the maid's old vacuum doesn't trip the breaker (I still get that one once in a while).
> They can ram these things up our asses, but please, lets not act like we enjoy it.


In that situation I would install AFCI receptacles. Boom!! Problem solved.:thumbsup:


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## socket2ya (Oct 27, 2016)

Mixed neutrals in switch boxes downstream of the AFCI device. Start backing switches out


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

socket2ya said:


> There's no way that you love these breakers as much as you let on.
> What about when you change a couple receptacles in a AFCI required areas. Take the panel cover off and it's chock full of wires, you can barely pull on the neutral wire to trace back and take off the terminal strip, and then the screw is rusted tight. Once you have the breaker installed you do the arc-fault prayer and hope that there aren't branch circuit neutrals mixed in the house. Then you hand the home-owner a bill for $500 to change a couple plugs and listen to the crying. Then you go back home and hope the maid's old vacuum doesn't trip the breaker (I still get that one once in a while).
> *They can ram these things up our asses, but please, lets not act like we enjoy it*.


No we  don't. ~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll use the AFCI or dual function receptacles in cases where there are FPE or Zinsco when changing a receptacle or GFCI. Fairly good luck so far. Problem is, they may end up behind furniture. Sometimes you may have limited choices. I've had Siemens do funny things, just like other brands. Sometimes it ends up being at the end of a reno when you are livening things up that are combinations of old and new. In the past its been tough because it wasn't always obvious what the problem was, vacuums, fluorescent lighting, etc.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I'll use the AFCI or dual function receptacles in cases where there are FPE or Zinsco when changing a receptacle or GFCI. Fairly good luck so far. Problem is, they may end up behind furniture. Sometimes you may have limited choices. I've had Siemens do funny things, just like other brands. Sometimes it ends up being at the end of a reno when you are livening things up that are combinations of old and new. In the past its been tough because it wasn't always obvious what the problem was, vacuums, fluorescent lighting, etc.


I'm reading these posts and see some guys are saying they haven't had
problems in years? Wow...good for them..can't relate though.

I have been working on a kitchen and bathroom remodel of an old
home (all knob & tube existing ) . It's a large home , about 7500 sq ft .

The kitchen was completely demoed and that included the sub panel
that used to be in the old kitchen. This sub panel is the primary 
(not main) distribution panel for most of the home to include
feeding another sub panel on the 2nd floor.

I used seimens arc fault breakers for the first time in quite a while
cause the 2 pole is readily available and I needed it for some existing
circuits.

IT AIN'T WORKING.

I told the GC before the job ...I'll be shocked if AFCI technology
actually holds steady in this house.

I got called yesterday . The 2 pole will not hold. I just went there 
and swapped it out with a standard 2 pole breaker. I'm done 
wasting time on these products.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

This last one took some time to figure out, but it was wiring and worth fixing. Pinched wiring on a outdoor light fixture on aluminum siding. Megger was helpful. It does take some time and your trying not to fry anything along the way. This was QO so I don't know that it has the diagnostic LED's that the Siemens has. Probably would have shown as ground fault in this case.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I'm reading these posts and see some guys are saying they haven't had
> problems in years? Wow...good for them..can't relate though.
> 
> I have been working on a kitchen and bathroom remodel of an old
> ...



:thumbsup:

But as some would say 'anecdotal' evidence, return trips are just a PIA no matter how you slice it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

On reno's we de-energize, remove and separate all the noodles from the noodle bar, ring 'em to ground and to each other 

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Also read the 406 changes in the '17 

they threw the 6' rule out....

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Also read the 406 changes in the '17
> 
> they threw the 6' rule out....
> 
> ~CS~


I did not know that. Thank you..ESSEX..(I'm just kidding!:icon_wink


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> On reno's we de-energize, remove and separate all the noodles from the noodle bar, ring 'em to ground and to each other
> 
> ~CS~


In this particular instance , the kitchen ceiling was removed. 
There ended up being a huge amount of wiring up inside
a void (the ceiling had been dropped about 2' lower) , which
I had to rewire.

Anything I could demo (that wasn't headed to the 2nd floor
I rewired in 12 awg NM cable.

The Kitchen itself was completely rewired with all new 12 
awg NM cable.

The Sub panel was removed and a new one installed on 
opposite wall of the remodeled kitchen.

I added a new grounding / bonding jumper as the old one
did not have that.

I could visually see about six different soldering points on
copper cold water lines where the original install connected
neutrals to the cold water lines. that was what I could see.
Imagine what else is where one cannot see in this big of a 
house.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Also read the 406 changes in the '17
> 
> they threw the 6' rule out....
> 
> ~CS~


Do not have the 17 yet. Still on 14.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The best AFCI is the one that never gets installed. :thumbsup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

MTW said:


> The best AFCI is the one that never gets installed. :thumbsup:


Or the ones you use over and over to get thru inspections:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Or the ones you use over and over to get thru inspections:laughing::laughing::laughing:





MTW said:


> The best AFCI is the one that never gets installed. :thumbsup:



You guys.....LOL!

I get scolded for talk like that.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You guys.....LOL!
> 
> I get scolded for talk like that.


Oh you mean the scolding from StevEssex.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> Oh you mean the scolding from StevEssex.


One in the same!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

lighterup said:


> I could visually see about six different soldering points on
> copper cold water lines where the *original install connected
> neutrals to the cold water lines.* that was what I could see.
> Imagine what else is where one cannot see in this big of a
> house.



That would be a problem for an afci / gfci ,anything_ toroidal _ assuming some manufacturers name ,stamp and listing. 

The thing to remember is, no matter how much electronic they heap onto it, it is still a _toroidal_ coil , will only sense what a _toroidal_ will sense, will only act like any other _toroidal_ will act.

Which brings us to those grounding & bonds you've installed. They are important to the _functionality_ of a toroidal . The 3 basic doctrines are IT TT & TN

Having some pseudo electrician/plumber install his own '_take_' on this wreaks havoc in the toroidal world :no::no::no:

~CS~


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