# Getting a HUGE fine



## HackWork

First, once you're calm go in and talk to them. Maintain that you understand that you are at fault but it was a mistake. Ask for forgiveness on the fine. No hardball, no threats, just admit to it and ask that they give you a pass. You thought it was a repair, you didn't know it needed a permit.

Second, charge the customer for the extra work that the town is making you perform. That should be in the contract and understood from the beginning. I have a line item note that I include in every estimate that has to do with a main panel spelling out how if the municipality or power company require any upgrades to bring the system up to code, that it will cost extra. That is between the customer and the town to argue.

Finally, stop with that nonsense about making the customer pay the fine. The customer is not responsible to keep secrets for you. They did nothing wrong by telling someone what you did. If you did something that you don't want someone or some entity to know, then that is on you if they find out. I understand that you are pissed and probably just saying this in vain.


----------



## MikeFL

Did you replace enclosure, bus, breaker or just replace the one breaker in an existing cabinet/ panel?


----------



## bullheimer

i replaced a breaker. but i apparently made the mistake of not just taping up the bare s.e.c. that had insulation burned off, but i replaced that too. a wire about 6" long to the bottom lug of the meter base. they are siting that as well, but it's basically moot since the breaker was their main concern. no pun intended. i called the inspector supervisor at 8am but have not received any call back. just great.


----------



## telsa

I always operate under the assumption that no Good Deed will go unpunished.

The Revenuers are ALWAYS thirsty.

The $2,000 fine is because they figure you've beaten them out of countless permits.

That's where they're coming from.

[ Their pensions are unfunded, too. ]


----------



## bullheimer

i couldn't agree with you more. and i've told them as much


----------



## HackWork

bullheimer said:


> i couldn't agree with you more. *and i've told them as much*


I hope it was worth $2,000.


----------



## bullheimer

dont know. lead insp said he and the clown that wrote me up had to talk about it at length as far as the type of permit: repair vs altered. repair would let me replace the wires from meter to main, but only it turns out, in case of wind or tree damage. so he said pull an altered. he did not mention any citations, but that's how sneaky these p-heads are, smiling at you while they stick the knife in your back. i fully expect to get the fine. 

and as for your ASSumption, i told them this about five years ago at an interview, and was asked back last year. but that was the reason i didn't get it five years ago i come to find out.


----------



## Navyguy

In our world, almost everything needs a permit and it is the LEC's responsibility to get it.

I always find it interesting on how differently our friends to the south operate when it comes to permits and inspections.

There is no way we (meaning the royal we of Canada) would have done this without a disconnect from the local utility and a permit and inspection.

Cheers
John


----------



## HackWork

bullheimer said:


> dont know. lead insp said he and the clown that wrote me up had to talk about it at length as far as the type of permit: repair vs altered. repair would let me replace the wires from meter to main, but only it turns out, in case of wind or tree damage. so he said pull an altered. he did not mention any citations, but that's how sneaky these p-heads are, smiling at you while they stick the knife in your back. i fully expect to get the fine.
> 
> and as for your ASSumption, i told them this about five years ago at an interview, and was asked back last year. but that was the reason i didn't get it five years ago i come to find out.


Did you just call me an ASS? If so, I’ll have them double your fine.


----------



## MikeFL

Around here a permit is required for anything that requires POCO to disconnect or reconnect. 
You need to know the regulations in your area.
Let's see what happens when they call you back. Be calm and professional when you talk to them. If they are the only AHJ around who requires a permit for that, make sure you tell them that.


----------



## Cow

I replace mains all the time. I just did an 800 amp main breaker inspection last week. 

I didn't pull any covers off when the inspector showed up. He knows my work, I told him behind the covers it looks like any other breaker with wires attached to it. He agreed. Good enough for him and me.

I'm sure he realizes the permit for a like for like main breaker replacement is just a money grab for permit fees. You have to know the rules and play the game.

A big fine makes it a hard lesson to learn. We're right on the Columbia River so I'll cross over into WA for work off and on. I know WA doesn't mess around with their rules and laws and fines!!!! 

I get spot checked for my journeyman license every time I have an inspection up there.


----------



## bullheimer

YES i know ordinarily ANYTIME power co is involved they want permit but NOT always. had lady call two weeks back a tree knocked the weather head off. one power guy said get repair work done w/permit. the next guy came by and reconnected her power as it was. i can only assume he found the top of the weatherhead laying on the ground and put it back on. I put right on her invoice that permit and re-tagging fees were going to be additional. I never said IF, they want it permitted, but i left it up to them. Problem was the power official we talked to when we did the work on sunday didn't care. Whoever took over for them on monday must have had a melt down. They called the idiot customer and said get a permit. that was her que to call me. instead the idiot went to LnI and they said come here and pull a permit, then they had her pull one for a safety inspection, when it should have been me just pulling one. this this is a load horse hockey.

i've talked to two other contractors who have replaced them w/o permits with power co's blessing. inconsistency.


----------



## chicken steve

This was a _burnt _main, _no_ power service call?

Have i got that _right_?

Not a _new _install, just a main?

If so, who issues a permit in 15 minutes for that?

There exists an avenue of appeal in almost every state in the union, $2k is not worth a lawyer , but it warrants some asking around
:vs_cool:
~CS~


----------



## lighterup

Here we would be allowed and some would say we would
be EXPECTED to make that repair (extreme safety issue)
on a Sunday and then on Monday contact the AHJ to 
see if a permit is needed (not all repairs qualify).


----------



## The_Modifier

bullheimer said:


> Lady called me on sunday with hot main. it was old but i had one at home. swapped it out. told her if power co called and wanted permit to call me.
> 
> well they called her and told her to call AHJ. they talked her into getting a Safety inspection. she NEVER called me to tell me Power co told her she needed permit. they only told her to call AHJ. I had not pulled a permit cause only a breaker. well turns out breaker doesn't need permit only if it's for a Branch ckt. Now AHJ is giving me a big fine AND my co. a big fine as well for
> 1 no permit, 2 not calling inspection w/o 24hrs of heating it up.j
> 
> I know that i was framed somehow by the power co and same for AHJ. Customer had no idea what she had done, had no intention of filing any kind of complaint or getting me in trouble since i saved her panel from burning up.
> 
> Now AHJ is telling me that i need a permit NOT for a service REPAIR, but for an ALTERED SERVICE!!! he said that therefor he wants me to go and do the usual for a panel change: two ground rods, bond all the gas and water!!! i told the customer i am charging her double for this and she is pissed but i dont care as i am going to charge her for my fines too. I even wrote on her receipt, if permit required, additional fees will be charged. the c-word was to f ing STUPID to call me as soon as power co told her she needed a permit. she had no idea that labor and industries was the people who are the AHJ. i am so gd p-o'd i can't even see straight. we called power co as soon as i was done to come re-tag the meter i pulled and they said there was no hurry to do it since it wasn't an emergency and would be there in three or four days. they usually are all over saying to get the work tagged before they will come back. i feel like they should have said to get it tagged on that conversation. I can't even believe anybody, even this lady my age at @ 60 could be so g'd stupid and coerced into calling the AHJ without even knowing wtf she was doing. g-dammit! This is going to be like a $2000 fine for me. s.o.bees!


Can we pleeeease hire you as a customer service rep? And please post all your replies on a *public* forum for the internet to see? :vs_laugh:


----------



## joebanana

And I thought Ca. was scrood[sic]. We got nothin' on that.


----------



## Southeast Power

I don't know about this one. I honestly think an exact breaker swap is a point of maintenance and maybe even an exact bus swap.
Problem is, if you know your jurisdiction requires a permit for such things, you should have pulled one.

Here, if we do a panel swap, our inspectors will always ask to see the smoke detectors so, we know to at least look for battery type. If the HO doesn't have them, we have to make sure they ar there on inspection or they will not release. The meter. I think it's a great idea. 
They also expect to see working GFCIs in the bathrooms and near the kitchen sink at a minimum. 
They have no other way to enter a building and do a safety check so, I don't see a victim here.


----------



## lighterup

Southeast Power said:


> I don't know about this one. I honestly think an exact breaker swap is a point of maintenance and maybe even an exact bus swap.
> Problem is, if you know your jurisdiction requires a permit for such things, you should have pulled one.
> 
> Here, if we do a panel swap, our inspectors will always ask to see the smoke detectors so, we know to at least look for battery type. If the HO doesn't have them, we have to make sure they ar there on inspection or they will not release. The meter. I think it's a great idea.
> They also expect to see working GFCIs in the bathrooms and near the kitchen sink at a minimum.
> They have no other way to enter a building and do a safety check so, I don't see a victim here.


wait a sec..you guys pull a permit for a panel swap and your AHJ
starts walking around the whole place looking at these other areas?


----------



## The_Modifier

lighterup said:


> wait a sec..you guys pull a permit for a panel swap and your AHJ
> starts walking around the whole place looking at these other areas?


If our AHJ did that up here, they are only allowed to advise the client of hazards. If the hazard is deemed dangerous, they would receive a notification stating they had 30 days to have it repaired or they will disconnect power to the property until it has been corrected.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> wait a sec..you guys pull a permit for a panel swap and your AHJ
> starts walking around the whole place looking at these other areas?


I've heard in some locations once you let them in they are like demons that try to take over.


----------



## Wiresmith

around here you do not need a permit for "maintenance"- ("replacing something with like kind" is how it is worded). from what i read what you did is allowed without a permit around here.


----------



## lighterup

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've heard in some locations once you let them in they are like demons that try to take over.


I have had many customers express concerns over my
pulling permits...sighting this as reason.

I usually respond that I have never seen a bldg dept
walk around inspecting other areas ...that they should 
only be inspecting my work & materials.

This evidently must be going on in other geographical areas


----------



## HackWork

I poop on building departments.


----------



## Glock23gp

If you ever have questions regarding permits needed you need to call the proper AHJ and get their opinion (email is better to CYA) on questionable installs. 

I have contacted mine 3x last week regarding questions about getting the correct permit for the specific application.

It's interesting in different areas what's required to be permitted and what's not..

Here like many others if you replace a receptacle you need a permit. If doing a service change we cannot (literally) remove meters as they have a tamper proof device on them and need to email a special letter to the Poco and AHJ before the Poco will renenergize prior to inspection.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## nrp3

Fortunately here we can cut the seal and make a phone call to the utility to let them know we've been in there. Have to explain what you are doing and why and give license and contact info. Pretty low stress. If its something that needs a permit and inspection, I think most inspectors here would be fine waiting till the next day or Monday if its a weekend. Nothing like this happens after hours right? The utility for the most part locally is pretty good to deal with. The line guys and ones they send out to look at job requests will work with you. This is Eversource.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> I have had many customers express concerns over my
> pulling permits...sighting this as reason.
> 
> I usually respond that I have never seen a bldg dept
> walk around inspecting other areas ...that they should
> only be inspecting my work & materials.
> 
> This evidently must be going on in other geographical areas


NYC an inspector in a building was always like opening a can of worms.


----------



## lighterup

MechanicalDVR said:


> NYC an inspector in a building was always like opening a can of worms.


Our bldg dept is pretty mellow. They do not go
snooping around looking for other stuff to gig...

But I would not put this past Akron/Summit County to do this.

Cleveland Bldg dept used to be corrupt but was busted in an
FBI sting operation years ago...A couple inspectors went to
prison for bribery and extortion

Matter of fact , a bunch of politicians were also busted as well as some contractors.

All went to prison becuase of this huge FBI sting operation


----------



## MikeFL

Glock23gp said:


> ...
> Here like many others if you replace a receptacle you need a permit. ...


You must be in snow-flake-afornia. Only the most egregious asshole of a bldg dept would require a permit from a licensed contractor for that. Where is this place? I'll write the letters and get DJT to shut that **** right down.


----------



## Glock23gp

MikeFL said:


> You must be in snow-flake-afornia. Only the most egregious asshole of a bldg dept would require a permit from a licensed contractor for that. Where is this place? I'll write the letters and get DJT to shut that **** right down.


1 state North.

They actually had no inspection process until we taught them how to start their inspection process and licensing requirements.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> Our bldg dept is pretty mellow. They do not go
> snooping around looking for other stuff to gig...
> 
> But I would not put this past Akron/Summit County to do this.
> 
> Cleveland Bldg dept used to be corrupt but was busted in an
> FBI sting operation years ago...A couple inspectors went to
> prison for bribery and extortion
> 
> Matter of fact , a bunch of politicians were also busted as well as some contractors.
> 
> All went to prison becuase of this huge FBI sting operation


I can see that in many locations I've done work in.

Even saw this in government inspectors on mil/gov projects where they were fairly open about extortion desires.

In NYC a permit often brings the electrical and fire inspector to jobs and they in turn often call on the building inspector and or code enforcement inspectors that are under the police dept. 

All of which can get pretty nasty.


----------



## MikeFL

Glock23gp said:


> 1 state North.
> 
> They actually had no inspection process until we taught them how to start their inspection process and licensing requirements.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Last time I rewrote our city code chapter on permit requirements, here's what I did:

A permit shall be required for all development, construction and maintenance and repairs. 
Exception: Maintenance and repairs, with a valuation of $1,000 or less, to previously permitted and inspected work shall not require a permit.
Exception: Electrical maintenance and repairs which require the power company to disconnect and/ or reconnect shall require a permit regardless of valuation of the work.

That's not the exact wording but that's effectively what it said. 

A permit to replace a receptacle? OMG.


----------



## nrp3

What's the going rate to replace a receptacle with permit, inspection, arc fault, receptacle, labor....? That's a bit over the top.


----------



## flyboy

MechanicalDVR said:


> NYC an inspector in a building was always like opening a can of worms.


$50 - $100 in cash always took care of that.


----------



## HackWork

nrp3 said:


> What's the going rate to replace a receptacle with permit, inspection, arc fault, receptacle, labor....? That's a bit over the top.


Writing up the permit takes me 15 minutes office time.
1 hour to go to the building department and find parking ,then pay for the parking, then go walk a few blocks into town hall, then another quarter mile to the building department in the sub-basement off the annex thru the tunnel under the court.
1 hour to go back to pay for and pickup the permit.
$50 minimum permit.
Once the work is done, 4 hours to wait for the inspector. 

So that comes to 39 hours and $5,850.

Plus material.


----------



## flyboy

nrp3 said:


> what's the going rate to replace a receptacle with permit, inspection, arc fault, receptacle, labor....? That's a bit over the top.


$1,001

Edit
With permit: $6,851

Plus material.


----------



## nrp3

Some of the online permitting is getting to be useful, the scheduling and waiting for inpections, while not bad in all jurisdictions, can be a problem.


----------



## MTW

My policy is to avoid permits whenever possible. Either that, it's important to have a friend or family member who is an inspector or works for the building department. Then all your troubles magically go away. :thumbup:


----------



## nrp3

Which is all well and good till the State (whatever form) shows up unannounced. The customer sells and the next gets assessed upon buying the property and you get thrown under the bus. At least around here they won't fuss over small stuff, but do a remodel, I'd rather not do it at all these days. I just don't want the hassle of one of these guys showing up and not being permitted.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

flyboy said:


> $50 - $100 in cash always took care of that.


Back in the 60's?


----------



## MTW

nrp3 said:


> Which is all well and good till the State (whatever form) shows up unannounced. The customer sells and the next gets assessed upon buying the property and you get thrown under the bus. At least around here they won't fuss over small stuff, but do a remodel, I'd rather not do it at all these days. I just don't want the hassle of one of these guys showing up and not being permitted.


Or the customer tells you then don't want the inspectors anywhere near their property, and we are happy to oblige. I was involved in a $1.2 million dollar renovation of a mansion and not a single permit was pulled other then for the service because we relocated it.


----------



## nrp3

Do I always agree with the rules and the seemingly never ending growth and spread of them, or how invasive they can be, No? On the other hand it's tough to look them in the eye when you get caught and they say you know better... Especially on something of that scale.


----------



## MTW

nrp3 said:


> Do I always agree with the rules and the seemingly never ending growth and spread of them, or how invasive they can be, No? On the other hand it's tough to look them in the eye when you get caught and they say you know better... Especially on something of that scale.


I'll have no more conversation with you until you learn how to use the quote function. :vs_mad:


----------



## nrp3

MTW said:


> I'll have no more conversation with you until you learn how to use the quote function. :vs_mad:


Ok.

Some of my motivation is this a single income family and the risk isn't worth the reward.


----------



## HackWork

Darn it, I am no longer the only person that nrp3 has ever quoted :sad:


----------



## MTW

nrp3 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Some of my motivation is this a single income family and the risk isn't worth the reward.


To each their own, I'm only describing how things are where I live and work. Obviously there are times when a permit is essential, but there are times when it gets avoided and life goes on.


----------



## lighterup

I got a call one time , by someone who purchased a home with
an FHA inspector involved.

The home had been vacant and "winterized" but someone broke
into it , gotten into the crawl space and cut out all the copper 
wiring they could see as well as water lines.

The FHA inspector had told the HO just get a licensed electrician
to do the work. The HO had accepted my proposal but was not
sure I had needed a permit or not.

He went back and asked FHA inspector who told him they did not
care about all that as long as I provided a copy of my license to
prove I was licensed in Ohio.

I was skeptical and went to the county (known to be PITA's)and 
they were just that. 

Here I expected to go there and register & pull a permit. 

There was an old lady at the reception (horned rim glasses with
a voice like "Roz" (Monsters Inc) who started in with her 
bureaucratic crap about it takes minimum 2 weeks for the
county inspectors board to review my "request" for registration
and 2 weeks for the board to review the plans for my permit 
and 2 weeks for this & 2 weeks for that and then looks at me
and sais..."what ya think you were gonna come in here and
just get registered & we were ganna jump for ya,,,you can't
just walk in here"...(blah blah blah) - My ears were ringing at 
this point from her grating voice , so I just said can I see my 
packet , I gotta verify ( as she handed it back to me) _zoooom_
to the door i went...her yelling ...sir come back here..you cannot 
work in this county without (slam!)


----------



## nrp3

I think everyone has a story like that. That's a good one.


----------



## MikeFL

My first time stepping foot in a building department I got thrown out. True story.

Today I'm retired from one (a different one).


----------



## lighterup

nrp3 said:


> I think everyone has a story like that. That's a good one.


If your referring to my story above its true and the
only time in a 20+ year career it ever happened.

The fact is , if I had gone in there with IBEW crad
i would walked right out with my permit that hour.

Since that's how they play there, I'll work in that county but before
I cross the county line , off come the company logo magnets and I go
right into Frunkslammer mode.

They will never get a penny from me


----------



## telsa

lighterup said:


> If your referring to my story above its true and the
> only time in a 20+ year career it ever happened.
> 
> The fact is , if I had gone in there with IBEW crad
> i would walked right out with my permit that hour.
> 
> Since that's how they play there, I'll work in that county but before
> I cross the county line , off come the company logo magnets and I go
> right into Frunkslammer mode.
> 
> They will never get a penny from me


Sacramento City is SO BAD that the city lost in court -- fined Big Time -- for screwing over non-IBEW contractors -- carried to the absurd.

As a consequence, un-permitted work within the city is epic.

No GC will file for permits if a build can possibly be pulled off.


----------



## bullheimer

well, i talked to the inspectors supervisor and he busted it down to just getting two warnings. like the two possible fines, one was for me, the electrician, the other one was for the company, me again, since i am it. what ever happened to Double Jeopardy? 

i cried the blues and it worked i guess. i'd be titts up with those fines. funny how i get a big ass chewing and if you look around this ladys panel, there are three romexs draped across the roof of her back yard area with inadaquate stapling, with the roof about 12" away from the wires under the mast.

think she got any correction to remove her roof or raise her mast? no way. homeowners do what they want.

i was forced to pull a permit for an Altered service. so i had to go under her house today and bond both hot and cold water, and the metal drain pipes, as well as the gas line. it was great. i also had to install a second ground rod. per WA state rules. i charged her another 5 bills plus the $90 permit fee. hope she likes it. i know i am lucky i am only getting warnings!!! Next time, i learned my lession. i'm just walking away from it.


----------



## telsa

#####


----------



## HackWork

I'm still waiting for my apology.


----------



## eddy current

Southeast Power said:


> I don't know about this one. I honestly think an exact breaker swap is a point of maintenance and maybe even an exact bus swap.
> Problem is, if you know your jurisdiction requires a permit for such things, you should have pulled one.
> 
> Here, if we do a panel swap, our inspectors will always ask to see the smoke detectors so, we know to at least look for battery type. If the HO doesn't have them, we have to make sure they ar there on inspection or they will not release. The meter. I think it's a great idea.
> They also expect to see working GFCIs in the bathrooms and near the kitchen sink at a minimum.
> They have no other way to enter a building and do a safety check so, I don't see a victim here.


In my area they won’t do that at all. There is no regulation to force someone to replace their old receptacles with gfi or arc fault protection unless the wiring has been altered. A panel swap is just a panel swap.

Even if you replace an old receptacle beside a sink you don’t have to install a GFI. It is recommended, but not mandatory.

Smoke detectors are covered under the Fire code which requires one on every floor but the electrical inspector will not check for them if it is just a panel swap or main breaker replacement.


----------



## lighterup

telsa said:


> Sacramento City is SO BAD that the city lost in court -- fined Big Time -- for screwing over non-IBEW contractors -- carried to the absurd.
> 
> As a consequence, un-permitted work within the city is epic.
> 
> No GC will file for permits if a build can possibly be pulled off.


funny you should mention "non -IBEW contractors" becuase
the word is (on this particular county dept) thta may very
well have been what my scenario was all about.

They probably did a quick reference check with the union
and verified I'm not a member.

Had it not been for this one experience , I would not 
have EVER had this experience to date ...all other
departments is normally a few hours & done


----------



## fiddler

2009 IRC 
R314.3.1 When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or crested in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms as required for new dwellings.

Exceptions 
1. work done to the exterior of the house.
2. work on plumbing or mechanical systems.

R314.4 Smoke detectors shall be hardwired, interconnected with battery backup.
Exceptions
1. where no commercial power is available.
2. where alterations or repairs do not result in removal of finishes to allow hard wiring.

I di a little paraphrasing on the 2nd section, and your state or local may have made amendments but that is why thay are requiring smoke detectors.

Same holds true for CO. detectors by the way.


----------

