# Unclear on Union



## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm in NC at the moment and have a year left before finishing my electrical technology degree after finishing I plan on obtaining my license. I'm from baltimore, maryland and was going to go back home to join the union would I have to start fresh in the apprenticeship program or would they credit me with what I've learned and put me at third year?

Its important for me to know because it might determine whether I stay in NC get my license after finishing school or go back home and join the union!


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Only the JATC Board for that local can answer that question.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Do you have any OJT?


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## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

Our JATC will let you challenge the first or second year if you have experience such as prior military or a degree related to the trade, but they decide if you will get that chance and then you test into the third year program.

I knew a few that did this but it didn't work to their advantage. The first two years are filled with conduit bending and all the basic tools you need to do your job right. If you go into the third year without knowing how to do the basics you will be of no good to the company that put the call into the JATC for a third year apprentice.

I would start over, it will only help you in the long run.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I doubt you will be able to get your license with an electrical technology degree. If you are accepted they will maybe let you test out of your 1st maybe second year, but as beam up states your better off getting the extra experience.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> I doubt you will be able to get your license with an electrical technology degree. If you are accepted they will maybe let you test out of your 1st maybe second year, but as beam up states your better off getting the extra experience.


No I'm quite sure I can take the license exam after getting my electrical technology degree as long as I have classroom instruction I'll be allowed to take the exam. Will I know as much as I need to to be a good electrician no.

EDIT: Need four years experience two primary and two secondary so my two years in the classroom count.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Most jurisdictions require OJT. I doubt they are any Different.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

BEAMEUP said:


> Our JATC will let you challenge the first or second year if you have experience such as prior military or a degree related to the trade, but they decide if you will get that chance and then you test into the third year program.
> 
> I knew a few that did this but it didn't work to their advantage. The first two years are filled with conduit bending and all the basic tools you need to do your job right. If you go into the third year without knowing how to do the basics you will be of no good to the company that put the call into the JATC for a third year apprentice.
> 
> I would start over, it will only help you in the long run.


If I was allowed to take the test I would only want to be placed past the first year but if you guys really think I should start over I'll start over. I talked with a guy today and he'll most likely use me for part-time help as an electrician helper. 

Do you think getting placed past the first year would be too far?

This is all hypothetical in that I'm allowed to join the union and is still a year ahead of me but I want to have a solid plan in place.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

stc9357 said:


> but if you guys really think I should start over I'll start over.


If you haven't worked on a job site as an apprentice yet, you never really started. Thus you aren't really starting over. Or am I missing something here?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Right, What he has is a good foundation to get going.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

I look on the application and I feel it would be a lot of repetitive information for me three years of day classes and two years of evening classes. If I already have a degree in electrical technology all I need is on the job training which is why I thought skipping the first year might be beneficial.

No I haven't worked on a job site as an apprentice besides the interview with a local today I was told by another company they would be looking for electrician helpers in the next 30-45 days which would be the beginning of my on the job training. If I come up there in a years time with 2,000 hours under my belt I think taking the first year would be stupid.

Also the closet local for me would be 865 but I was told only local 24 does the apprenticeship program is that correct?

They only say drug testing for the entry but isn't there random drug testing throughout the program? I ask because I'll be truthful I like to smoke weed occasionally but haven't in the past 45 days because I'm trying to get a job any job really.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Like I said, they may let you test out of the first year, but either way you will still be required to go thru the apprenticeship if accepted. Yes there are lot's of drug tests in your career. And yeah they don't like it, I don't know why.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

stc9357 said:


> If I come up there in a years time with 2,000 hours under my belt I think taking the first year would be stupid.


I missed that part earlier, if you have the OJT then yes skipping ahead would be beneficial. You just don't want to skip ahead a year or two and show up to work not knowing how to bend pipe or how to do other simple tasks that they could have a 1st year apprentice doing instead of you.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like I said, they may let you test out of the first year, but either way you will still be required to go thru the apprenticeship if accepted. Yes there are lot's of drug tests in your career. And yeah they don't like it, I don't know why.


I want to go thru the apprenticeship because I feel like I have a lot to learn. I figured they do randoms for the drug testing like you said I can't figure out why I can't smoke a little weed at home when that's none of anybodies business. Right now I don't even have my license because I can't pay for insurance so hopefully in this year's time I can find a steady job.

If somebody could tell me what the first year entails it would help me make the decision on skipping the first year or not skipping it. There's not a lot of companies in my area and the biggest one said they would be hiring in 30-45 days for helpers I live in greenville, nc. Even if I don't join the union I might leave here in a year's time just to find employment with a non-union company.

I have a record will that stop me from joining the union?
I ask because I've had several interviews for different jobs and its stopped me from getting a job I have a felony manufacturing of marijuana charge on my record from 2010 I feel like two years time is a significant amount of time not to be in any trouble.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Your toast.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Honestly Loose Neutral I won't be able to join the union? I'm most likely going to have to go home anyway to get a job nobody will hire a felon down here they will in Baltimore. Next year will make three years with no additional charges. I can stop smoking weed if it means steady employment because I already have just have gotten downtrodden when getting to the interview process and being denied solely because of that fact.

Everyone makes mistakes and I'm trying to move on from that.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Like celtic said, the only one that can really answer your question is the local your applying to. Chances are your better off staying down there. Hey, you can apply at bulldog's dad's company. He's down there in NC somewhere and maybe with your degree he will make you bulldogs boss.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like celtic said, the only one that can really answer your question is the local your applying to. Chances are your better off staying down there. Hey, you can apply at bulldog's dad's company. He's down there in NC somewhere and maybe with your degree he will make you bulldogs boss.



It said nothing about not being able to join the union because of a felony. I'm from Baltimore and I'm going home regardless because of not being able to find a job down here. I have no relatives that live in the big cities of north carolina. Staying down here frankly would be stupid when I have relatives and friends in Baltimore with jobs that have multiple felonies on their record. If I find no job in a year's time the great exodus will take place and I'll go home and stay with my Dad.

Just called my local they said it wouldn't be held against me are you trying to keep me out of the union?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

stc9357 said:


> Just called my local they said it wouldn't be held against me are you trying to keep me out of the union?


pot / kettle?

~CS~


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Please enlighten me I'm a little slow. Are you saying I'll be put further down on the list because of my felony or not?

I did however graduate highschool with a 3.8 gpa and managed to blow a full scholarship being a criminal. I like working with my hands better anyway was going to be an engineer still might after obtaining a job.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

stc9357 said:


> Please enlighten me I'm a little slow. Are you saying I'll be put further down on the list because of my felony or not?
> .


 
Heaven forfend STC, methinks you'd make shop stewart in _record _time

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Nothing means nothing, until you talk with the local, I have know men with 4 years OJT, 2-3 years open shop schooling and be made to start from day one. Other guys with not much more test in. All depends on how bad they need help, the locals rules and how they feel on any given day.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

stc9357 said:


> I
> 
> Just called my local they said it wouldn't be held against me are you trying to keep me out of the union?


Legally they cannot hold it against, but behind closed doors HECK YES.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

stc9357 said:


> Please enlighten me I'm a little slow. Are you saying I'll be put further down on the list because of my felony or not?
> 
> I did however graduate highschool with a 3.8 gpa and managed to blow a full scholarship being a criminal. I like working with my hands better anyway was going to be an engineer still might after obtaining a job.



And a mental reject with a worse felony and a daddy and/or uncle in the local can leave you in the dust.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I have said the construction industry is the most forgiving.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I have said the construction industry is the most forgiving.


Except most of the major jobs here require security clearances. Not up to the union or the employer, Uncle SAm makes or breaks you.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> I have said the construction industry is the most forgiving.


well if to err is human, and we're closer to divinity every time we forgive it, we should all glow like Gods........~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

brian john said:


> Uncle SAm makes or breaks you.


he really can be an>


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Are you sure your an electrician and not some literary poet? You are well versed.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm not going to be in the construction industry even though I have two years of experience I want to be an electrician. I don't mind starting from day one if I can join the union looks like the union has significant slow periods though and your not allowed to do non-union work.

I was only apprehended because of an informant if worse comes to worse I'll move to Oregon, Colorado, or California and do what I do best. Thanks for the advice I'll always have my green thumb.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

You can move to the emerald triangle and hone in those skills.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

stc9357 said:


> I have a record will that stop me from joining the union?
> I ask because I've had several interviews for different jobs and its stopped me from getting a job I have a felony manufacturing of marijuana charge on my record from 2010 I feel like two years time is a significant amount of time not to be in any trouble.


You may feel that "two years time is a significant amount of time not to be in any trouble"...and you might be alone feeling that way.

Talk to a lawyer...ask about "expungement"......it may not help you now, but it may help eventually....or it may not even be possible.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

stc9357 said:


> I'm not going to be in the construction industry even though I have two years of experience I want to be an electrician. I don't mind starting from day one if I can join the union looks like the union has significant slow periods though and your not allowed to do non-union work.
> 
> I was only apprehended because of an informant if worse comes to worse I'll move to Oregon, Colorado, or California and do what I do best. Thanks for the advice I'll always have my green thumb.


If you truly want to be an electrian, then DO it

_rule #1>_

throw out this idea of using any other entity as a crutch

_rule #2>_

answer to nobody save for those of intricate knowledge

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Celtic said:


> You may feel that "two years time is a significant amount of time not to be in any trouble"...and you might be alone feeling that way.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer...ask about "expungement"......it may not help you now, but it may help eventually....or it may not even be possible.


 




> In many states, juvenile records are sealed automatically and immediately. These laws allow a minor who has committed criminal or delinquent acts, to erase his record permanently, usually at the age of 17 or 18. The idea is to allow the youth offender to enter adulthood with a "clean slate," shielding him from the negative effects of having a criminal record.


nice Celt

~CS~


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Celtic said:


> You may feel that "two years time is a significant amount of time not to be in any trouble"...and you might be alone feeling that way.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer...ask about "expungement"......it may not help you now, but it may help eventually....or it may not even be possible.


Expungement is 5 years away already looking ahead to it. I'll try not to use anything as a crutch can't find a horticultural job either (Hispanics have that area covered here) had three years of horticulture experience from high school and two more botany classes in college.

I'm just looking to make an honest wage but periods of unemployment scare me after I'm no longer an apprentice. I figure I'll most likely get in I'll crush the algebra that's in the aptitude test. Either way I'll become an electrician whether I work Union or get my experience as non-union I'll make it I have that much faith. I'll try to absorb as much as I can!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> I'll try to absorb as much as I can!


good, best thing you can do.....

~CS~


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

stc9357 said:


> Right now I don't even have my license because I can't pay for insurance so hopefully in this year's time.


......Don't spend so much $$ on weed and get your license, who's going to hire you if you don't have transportation?


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

local134gt said:


> ......Don't spend so much $$ on weed and get your license, who's going to hire you if you don't have transportation?


Did you read my post I haven't smoked in 45 days no job equals no license I have no income at all. I've already talked to two companies and they'll hire me as long as I'm on site in the morning and have transportation home. You allow your helpers to drive?



Even when I get my license I'll have no car and will be taking the bus once I get back home.


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## T.J. (Apr 3, 2012)

stc9357 said:


> Did you read my post I haven't smoked in 45 days no job equals no license I have no income at all. I've already talked to two companies and they'll hire me as long as I'm on site in the morning and have transportation home. You allow your helpers to drive?
> 
> 
> 
> Even when I get my license I'll have no car and will be taking the bus once I get back home.



Yes, Helpers are not only allowed, but encouraged to drive, ONLY if they drive like this.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

T.J. said:


> Yes, Helpers are not only allowed, but encouraged to drive, ONLY if they drive like this.



Thats how I drive how'd you guess? Nothing better than smoking a blunt on the clock right and talking to your boss with bloodshot eyes I live for it.

Yeah I just have to get liability insurance in order to get my license. In Maryland I don't have to have insurance at all to get my license so I'll get it no matter what and march into the union parachute style.


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## T.J. (Apr 3, 2012)

stc9357 said:


> Thats how I drive how'd you guess? Nothing better than smoking a blunt on the clock right and talking to your boss with bloodshot eyes I live for it.
> 
> Yeah I just have to get liability insurance in order to get my license. In Maryland I don't have to have insurance at all to get my license so I'll get it no matter what and march into the union parachute style.


The union interview is sorta like this.






Except there are five to six guys there.
























Actually they pretty much frown on drugs.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

T.J. said:


> The union interview is sorta like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know they do but as long as I can stay clean I don't see how it'll matter I expect to take more randoms than other people though. Be honest would they rather it be an attempted murder charge, robbery charge, or a non-violent marijuana felony?

Thanks for the sense of humor.


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## T.J. (Apr 3, 2012)

stc9357 said:


> I know they do but as long as I can stay clean I don't see how it'll matter I expect to take more randoms than other people though. Be honest would they rather it be an attempted murder charge, robbery charge, or a non-violent marijuana felony?
> 
> Thanks for the sense of humor.


I really couldn't tell you what goes through their minds when it comes to what they would "rather". Brian John probably said it best though earlier in the post.

As for me, I'm an aspiring apprentice myself. I'm waiting to hear back from my interview April 19th.

Gotta have a sense of humor in life IMO. Thought you would get a kick out of that. 
Good luck with whatever you decide and do what is important.


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## bthesparky (Jan 23, 2009)

I got probably the same 2 year degree your finishing and I started from square one. Very happy I did, the first couple of years of class felt very repetitive, but practice makes perfect plus the extra ojt was absolutely needed. Do yourself a huge favor and start from scratch, you'll gain respect from the old timers as well.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

bthesparky said:


> I got probably the same 2 year degree your finishing and I started from square one. Very happy I did, the first couple of years of class felt very repetitive, but practice makes perfect plus the extra ojt was absolutely needed. Do yourself a huge favor and start from scratch, you'll gain respect from the old timers as well.


I've already decided I'm going to start from scratch and hope my degree will get me a helper non-union job in Maryland in the meantime, if not there's always McDonalds until I get in the union I just want to work I'm a hard worker.


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## Legion (Oct 19, 2010)

stc9357 said:


> No I'm quite sure I can take the license exam after getting my electrical technology degree as long as I have classroom instruction I'll be allowed to take the exam. Will I know as much as I need to to be a good electrician no.
> 
> EDIT: Need four years experience two primary and two secondary so my two years in the classroom count.


Perhaps I'm reading it wrong... but...

If you read Sections .0202 (a) Primary Experience of the North Carolina State Board, you'll not find educational training listed. Community college or vocational training is listed in Section .0202 (b) Secondary Experience, and it's only valued at 50%. Meaning your 2 year degree equates to only one of the 4 years required and is classified as secondary at that.

So I really don't see how you'd qualify for the examination. Seeing as you have zero years primary experience and they require a minimum of 2, and you only have the equivalent of 1 year secondary experience. 

Additionally, while the accountability varies a bit between the states. I'd personally be more than a bit hesitant to go out on jobs as a journeyman, if you were to pass, and not have practical on the job training and experience. Desiring responsibility is great as along a you're aware of the liability that comes with it.

Every local is different, but I know many that prefer an apprentice who's taken electrical classes... but they still start off with everyone fresh.

While every local or company for that matter is different. I know many that wouldn't give you any preferential treatment for having a 2 year degree, as far as starting further ahead in the program. I even know of actual engineers and military electricians whom started as first year apprentices.



brian john said:


> Legally they cannot hold it against, but behind closed doors HECK YES.


+1. It's been widely acknowledged in some business magazines that even mere minor misdemeanors are being used against people in the hiring process now. Admittedly it's illegal, but it happens behind closed doors.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Legion said:


> Perhaps I'm reading it wrong... but...
> 
> If you read Sections .0202 (a) Primary Experience of the North Carolina State Board, you'll not find educational training listed. Community college or vocational training is listed in Section .0202 (b) Secondary Experience, and it's only valued at 50%. Meaning your 2 year degree equates to only one of the 4 years required and is classified as secondary at that.
> 
> ...


You obviously read my first post and didn't bother to read any of the thread I posted the same info. I also said I was going to start fresh thanks for taking your time to post however. I didn't read the section in its entirety now I'm slightly confused.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

Legion said:


> Perhaps I'm reading it wrong... but...
> 
> If you read Sections .0202 (a) Primary Experience of the North Carolina State Board, you'll not find educational training listed. Community college or vocational training is listed in Section .0202 (b) Secondary Experience, and it's only valued at 50%. Meaning your 2 year degree equates to only one of the 4 years required and is classified as secondary at that.
> 
> ...


I have a question for you they count an electrician helper as secondary experience how are you supposed to gain primary experience when it basically says you have to be a journeyman? I don't think I'm understanding this correctly in order to qualify for the exam you have to have two years of primary experience how can you achieve that without being a licensed electrician?

(a) Primary. As used in this Chapter, primary experience means working experience gained by the applicant while engaged directly in the installation of electrical wiring and equipment governed by the National Electrical Code or work activities directly related thereto. Examples of the capacity in which a person may work in gaining primary experience and the percentages for creditable primary experience are as follows:
In calculating accumulative primary experience, a total of 2,000 hours shall equal one creditable year. The total number of creditable years shall be calculated by dividing the total hours of primary experience by 2,000. Example: Applicant has worked in primary capacity for a total of 7,200 hours of primary experience.


 journeyman electrician or electrician mechanic, both meaning the same: 100% 
 electrical foreman: 100% 
 electrical general foreman: 100% 
 electrical superintendent: 100% 
 electrical general superintendent: 100% 
 estimator for licensed electrical contractor: 100 % 
 electrical inspector recognized as such by the State Department of Insurance: 100 % 
 time spent by a professional engineer who is responsible for follow-up project supervision, beyond the point of delivery, in electrical engineering, design, or consulting: 100% 
 full-time instructor teaching National Electrical Code, NFPA 72 and related electrical courses at a college, university, community college, technical institute, high school or vocational school: 50%
 maintenance journeyman electrician or electrician mechanic employed in a full-time electrical maintenance department: 100%
 time actually spent in electrical maintenance by a maintenance journeyman electrician or electrician mechanic regularly employed in other than a full-time electrical maintenance department: 100%
 military person holding an electrician rating or rank of at least E-4 who is engaged in land based electrical installations similar or equivalent to work performed by an electrical contractor: 100% 
 time actually spent in part-time or incidental work in any primary experience category: 100%
 time actually spent installing or maintaining fire alarm/low voltage systems; 100%
 time as a holder of NICET certification on NFPA 72 Level I, II or III; 50%
 time as a holder of NICET certification on NFPA 72 Level IV; 100%
 7,200 = 3.6 years creditable primary work experience
2,000​ (b) Secondary. As used in this Chapter, secondary experience means working experience gained while engaged in work or training that is related to the installation of electrical wiring and equipment governed by the National Electrical Code. Examples of the type of work or training in which a person may engage to gain creditable secondary experience and the percentages for creditable secondary experience are as follows:


 apprentice electrician training in an apprentice program approved by the North Carolina Department of Labor: 100% 
 time spent as an apprentice electrician or helper other than as described in subparagraph (1) and (3) of this paragraph: 80% 
 time actually spent in electrical maintenance by a maintenance apprentice or electrician helper regularly employed in other than a full-time electrical maintenance department: 80% 
 student satisfactorily completing National Electrical Code and related electrical courses at a college, university, community college, technical institute, high school or vocational school: 50% 
 time spent by a professional engineer who is not responsible for follow-up project supervision, beyond the point of delivery, in electrical engineering, design, or consulting: 50% 
 electrical construction design under the supervision of a professional engineer: 50% 
 sales representative for an electrical wholesaler, distributor, or manufacturer: 20% 
 appliance service and repair: 20% 
 electric utility lineman: and 10% 
 electric utility serviceman: 20%
 In calculating accumulative secondary experience, a total of 2,000 hours shall equal one creditable year. The total number of creditable years shall be calculated by applying the percentage for creditable secondary experience and dividing the remainder hours by 2,000. Example: Applicant has 1,000 hours of work experience as a helper or regular apprentice and 2,200 hours of experience while enrolled in an approved apprentice training program: 1,000 hours at 80 percent = 800 hours secondary experience; 2,200 hours at 100 percent = 2,200 hours secondary experience;
2,200 + 800 = 1.5 years of creditable secondary experience
2,000​ (c) Other Experience. The Board shall approve other experience that it finds to be equivalent or similar to the primary or secondary experience defined in this Rule.


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

*.0201. REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL EXAMINATION APPLICANTS* (a) To take an examination in any electrical contracting license classification, the applicant must:
(1) be at least 18 years of age;
(2) submit the required duly filed application as defined in Rule .0210;
(3) submit with the application written statements from at least two persons attesting to the applicant's good character; and
(4) meet any other requirements set out in Paragraph (b) of this Rule.​ (b) Examination applicants must meet the following requirements for the specified license classifications:
(1) Limited classification. An applicant must have at least four years of experience, as defined in Rule .0202 of this Section, of which at least two years shall be primary experience. The balance of experience may be primary, secondary or both.​


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## stc9357 (Mar 16, 2012)

If I understand this correctly than my remaining three years can be all secondary?

I'm asking because if you have to have primary then the biggest local company around wouldn't have a 4 year apprenticeship program in which after completing it you can become a journeyman electrician. There are also apprenticeship programs in Raleigh, Charlotte and one other area which allows you to do the same thing.


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