# Recent panel swap gone wrong.



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Who with even the slightest bit of pride in their work would post that perfect example off garbage electrical work on an electricians forum??? 

Your work is an embarrassment and insult to real electricians everywhere.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

looks like a 30/40 panel to me and the tandems are in the wrong locations


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> looks like a 30/40 panel to me and the tandems are in the wrong locations


Whoops, your right. I was thinking of the GE 32/40 I installed on another job.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> looks like a 30/40 panel to me and the *tandems are in the wrong locations*


:blink: What do you mean?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Whoops, your right. I was thinking of the GE 32/40 I installed on another job.


 
what about the tandems being installed in the wrong locations?

you do know that only the bottom 5 can accommodate tandems don't you?

you cant just put them where ever the hell you feel like it and call it good


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

He can find the correct neutrals when he provides me a professional installation.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> what about the tandems being installed in the wrong locations?
> 
> you do know that only the bottom 5 can accommodate tandems don't you?
> 
> you cant just put them where ever the hell you feel like it and call it good


:jester: I did not know about that. They fit in this panel without any modification to the breakers.
Is that a MFG recommendation? I figured if tandems were not allowed in a particular spot on the buss, the buss would be designed not to accept the tandem.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

What about the reused/old breaker 3rd down on the right?

You don't provide all new breakers with a panel change? I'm also questioning the top breaker on the right.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> :blink: What do you mean?


 
please tell me you don't think you can put tandems in the panel wherever you want and as long as you don't have more than 40 circuits in the panel youre good?

PLEASE tell me you KNOW that there are only certain sections of the buss that accept tandems?

PLEASE!!!!


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> :jester: I did not know about that. They fit in this panel without any modification to the breakers.
> Is that a MFG recommendation? I figured if tandems were not allowed in a particular spot on the buss, the buss would be designed not to accept the tandem.


You figured incorrectly


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> He can find the correct neutrals when he provides me a professional installation.


Well. I went back yesterday and did my best to clean it up without without pulling everything but the grounds out and starting over.

I had to splice some hots and neutrals to make the best of it.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> What about the reused/old breaker 3rd down on the right?
> 
> You don't provide all new breakers with a panel change? I'm also questioning the top breaker on the right.


 
yep, used gfci breaker.....looks like an old ITE and not BR

and the afci definitely looks like a branch/feeder and not a combination


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> :jester: I did not know about that. They fit in this panel without any modification to the breakers.
> Is that a MFG recommendation? I figured if tandems were not allowed in a particular spot on the buss, the buss would be designed not to accept the tandem.


ummmm.........

have you never noticed the notched buss on the BR panels?

Siemens and Homeline have the same design


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> :jester: I did not know about that. They fit in this panel without any modification to the breakers.
> Is that a MFG recommendation? I figured if tandems were not allowed in a particular spot on the buss, the buss would be designed not to accept the tandem.


 
and with that logic why even change the panel at all?

just slap in a bunch of tandems and call it a day


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> please tell me you don't think you can put tandems in the panel wherever you want and as long as you don't have more than 40 circuits in the panel youre good?
> 
> PLEASE tell me you KNOW that there are only certain sections of the buss that accept tandems?
> 
> PLEASE!!!!


By accept, you would mean that a tandem would only plug into a certain spot(s) on the buss right?

This could be a 30/60, it's been a while since this panel was put in. The tandems went in without modification to the breaker itself.

I have been in plenty of panels where slims or tandems would not be accepted due to the design of the buss.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> and with that logic why even change the panel at all?
> 
> just slap in a bunch of tandems and call it a day


I am confused by the term you are using.
Do you mean accept as in the buss is designed to accept the tandem.
Or do you mean allow as in I am only allowed to place the tandem on a certain spot on the buss?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I'd be curious to see a pic that shows the very top of this panel and why it _appears_ that the neutrals come in one side and the grounds in the other side.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

These are the ****ing morons we have to compete with. This should be converted to a "name the violations" thread.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> ummmm.........
> 
> have you never noticed the notched buss on the BR panels?
> 
> Siemens and Homeline have the same design


I have noticed the notched buss. And if it is not notched that means it will only accept a full sized breaker.

Now mind you, I did not pay attention to the buss in this particular panel.

The tandems did plug in without modification to the breaker which leads me to believe that the place I plugged in the tandem was notched to accept said tandem.

Next time I go back, I will double check.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

The butcher strikes again


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Next time I go back, I will double check.


That should be on your sig line


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> I'd be curious to see a pic that shows the very top of this panel and why it _appears_ that the neutrals come in one side and the grounds in the other side.


I stepped back as far as I could but the garage is storage space and I had little clearance behind me.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I thought this was in an attic and someone else installed the panel?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I know it looks like I'm piling on...but come on...there wasn't enough room in the bid for a tie wrap? I've had inspectors ding me for less.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

This story is as bad as the work



aftershockews said:


> Finishing up an attic conversion where we swapped out the 20/40 for a 30/40 in order to gain more spaces for the added AFCI's.
> 
> Co worker did the swap. I gave him the heads up about matching the hot and neutral for the existing 2 AFCI's and the 5 we added. I went upstairs to button up some things.
> So where are they???
> ...


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> What about the reused/old breaker 3rd down on the right?
> 
> You don't provide all new breakers with a panel change? I'm also questioning the top breaker on the right.


On this particular job, no. We used the same MFG panel that was existing in order to use the existing breakers. House was built in the early to mid 2000's


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> I thought this was in an attic and someone else installed the panel?


The job was an attic conversion. This panel is in the garage. And a co worker installed the panel.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Forgot to post the pic from yesterday.

Not proud of it, but did what I could to straighten it up.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

I thought you fired the co worker ? why did you run the grounding conductor separate from the feeders?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

What is the point of "separating" the grounds and neutrals when the bars are connected. All that does is create that conglomerate of crap at the top of the panel.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I have noticed the notched buss. And if it is not notched that means it will only accept a full sized breaker.
> 
> Now mind you, I did not pay attention to the buss in this particular panel.
> 
> ...


 
maybe you had some old style tandems......maybe youre a tard

you decide

what type of screws did the breakers have? slotted or square?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> What is the point of "separating" the grounds and neutrals when the bars are connected. All that does is create that conglomerate of crap at the top of the panel.


I do not see a point as well. I have had inspectors in the past gig me for not doing it in this manner, so I avoid issues with them and just separate.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> maybe you had some old style tandems......maybe youre a tard
> 
> you decide
> 
> what type of screws did the breakers have? slotted or square?


Square.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Man you farked up. Never post any pictures of your work on this forum or these guys will rip you a new one. Steal them from somebody else like McCramer does..


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I do not see a point as well. I have had inspectors in the past gig me for not doing it in this manner, so I avoid issues with them and just separate.



Gig you for what? They are mechanically the same bar.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Man you farked up. Never post any pictures of your work on this forum or these guys will rip you a new one. Steal them from somebody else like McCramer does..


I knew what I was getting into. Best way to get used to it.:laughing:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> Gig you for what? They are mechanically the same bar.


I agree with you. If it does not cost me anything to avoid issues, I do it in a manner to avoid any issues.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Man you farked up. Never post any pictures of your work on this forum or these guys will rip you a new one. Steal them from somebody else like McCramer does..


 
I don't normally rip someone's work because I know for damn sure my work is far from perfect. 

I've actually seen some pretty impressive work here that I found NO problems with.

But the OP's work was HACKTASTIC!!!


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I do not see a point as well. I have had inspectors in the past gig me for not doing it in this manner, so I avoid issues with them and just separate.


 If the main disconnect is in the panel then you bond here and the neutral buss and ground buss. do not need to be separated and grounding and grounded conductors can be landed anyplace on either buss. If you are allowing an inspector to tell you otherwise you don't understand code.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I agree with you. If it does not cost me anything to avoid issues, I do it in a manner to avoid any issues.


I don't bow to an inspector's whims, wants, or wishes unless he can show me where my work doesn't meet code.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I hope that's a before picture of the project? Otherwise that's horrible and you should be ashamed of yourself. Are you?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

and I see a double tap going to one of the tandems on the left side in your second pic


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> I hope that's a before picture of the project? Otherwise that's horrible and you should be ashamed of yourself. Are you?


Depends on which picture you mean.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> and I see a double tap going to one of the tandems on the left side in your second pic


Optical illusion due to the camera angle.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Optical illusion due to the camera angle.



No way...something is double tapped there.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rewire, what are you sorry for?

Being friends means you never have to say you're sorry.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Things could have been a lot worse...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Did you do this during the great two pole breaker shortage of 2013?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> No way...something is double tapped there.


:001_huh:

I looked at the picture closely , counted the wires compared to the throws and I came up with the same count.

I will be back to this job soon anyway and will double check.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I agree with you. If it does not cost me anything to avoid issues, I do it in a manner to avoid any issues.


 How about spending the money for a code book


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> :001_huh:
> 
> I looked at the picture closely , counted the wires compared to the throws and I came up with the same count.
> 
> I will be back to this job soon anyway and will double check.


 
you seem to make a lot of return trips to all of your jobs


you know that if you did it right the first time, that wouldn't be necessary


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

rewire said:


> How about spending the money for a code book


 
and some code classes


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Rewire, what are you sorry for?
> 
> Being friends means you never have to say you're sorry.


 you politely asked me to change my sig and I didn't .


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> you seem to make a lot of return trips to all of your jobs
> 
> 
> you know that if you did it right the first time, that wouldn't be necessary


On going job. The ceiling and 2 walls will be cleared of sheetrock due to building code requiring a certain fire rating.

I will be adding LED can lighting and a receptacle in the garage.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't do this very often, but I had to in this case...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> On going job. The ceiling and 2 walls will be cleared of sheetrock due to building code requiring a certain fire rating.
> 
> I will be adding LED can lighting and a receptacle in the garage.


_Please_ guys, don't say anything. Let's just wait for the pictures. :whistling2:


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> I don't do this very often, but I had to in this case...


check the right side below the breaker with the white tape for the second one


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> I don't do this very often, but I had to in this case...


The last one you have marked in red is landed to the 2 pole 50. It is a #10 for the CAC unit.
Like I stated, it is an optical illusion due to the camera angle.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> The last one you have marked in red is landed to the 2 pole 50. It is a #10 for the CAC unit.
> Like I stated, it is an optical illusion due to the camera angle.


 
even if that is true, I have never seen an AC with a 25 - 30 min and 50 max

dude.....Im beginning to think you're the guy you're always complaining about and your "helper" is actually fixing YOUR work


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> even if that is true, I have never seen an AC with a 25 - 30 min and 50 max
> 
> dude.....Im beginning to think you're the guy you're always complaining about and your "helper" is actually fixing YOUR work


4 ton units with 29 MCA and 50 amp max breaker requirement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> dude.....Im beginning to think you're the guy you're always complaining about and your "helper" is actually fixing YOUR work


He proved that with that church troubleshooting thread. 

I don't know what to believe from him.

You know what's funny, in one thread he mentioned how much of his own money he spent on stuff that he uses for his boss's business and it was more money than I have put into my own legitimate business. So either he is insane or just trolling.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> He proved that with that church troubleshooting thread.
> 
> I don't know what to believe from him.
> 
> You know what's funny, in one thread he mentioned how much of his own money he spent on stuff that he uses for his boss's business and it was more money than I have put into my own legitimate business. So either he is insane or just trolling.


Insane, maybe.:thumbsup:
And what was wrong with the church thread? I disconnected the circuit in question.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Fail


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm starting to wonder if he isn't cletis.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

wildleg said:


> I'm starting to wonder if he isn't cletis.


I was actually sitting here thinking the same thing


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Did someone say that #10's are on a 50?

Is this allowed even in motor circuits?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

We should change the OPs name to "The Member formally Known as Cletis."


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

3xdad said:


> Did someone say that #10's are on a 50?
> 
> Is this allowed even in motor circuits?


Next time I am out at this job, I am going to double check the nameplate. IIRC, the last 4 ton I did was 29/45. And it is possible I was the install 45 amp breakers and forgot about it.

Alot going on with this job as things keep getting added here and there.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Did someone say that #10's are on a 50?
> 
> Is this allowed even in motor circuits?


Possible.

Depends on the nameplate MCA, MOCPD, and integral thermal protection of the equipment.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I least I got to be the first person on this hack electricians ignore list... and then the second when I got a new user name! 

I just can't believe he posts his "best" work up on here to get ripped to shìt. Imagine, these posts are his.. I mean, HIS HELPERS *best* work, imagine the stuff even he's embarrassed about.

SCARY. 

Scott's right, this is your competition, learn him well so you can compete.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Fail



You missed a good one: 










ID tape or bare conductor? :whistling2:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mxslick said:


> You missed a good one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ID Tape.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I cannot figure out all the other red circles unless there is an explanation behind them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> I cannot figure out all the other red circles unless there is an explanation behind them.


Doubled up neutrals, MWBC's not on 2-pole breakers.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Doubled up neutrals, MWBC's not on 2-pole breakers.


 
don't forget the ITE breaker in a BR panel


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Doubled up neutrals, MWBC's not on 2-pole breakers.


Neutrals are not doubled up. but I see your point on the MWBC's not on 2 pole breakers. I forgot about that. Is it in the 2008? We just started the 2008 the first of this year.

Anyways thanx for pointing that out. I will correct that before final.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Neutrals are not doubled up. but I see your point on the MWBC's not on 2 pole breakers. I forgot about that. Is it in the 2008? We just started the 2008 the first of this year.
> 
> Anyways thanx for pointing that out. I will correct that before final.


 
you could use listed handle ties too.....doesn't have to be a 2 pole breaker


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Neutrals are not doubled up. but I see your point on the MWBC's not on 2 pole breakers. I forgot about that. Is it in the 2008? We just started the 2008 the first of this year.
> 
> Anyways thanx for pointing that out. I will correct that before final.


Hmm, that brings up a question. I had asked in another thread about being required to install combination AFCI's on an existing AFCI circuit if I was just doing a panel swap and was informed I would not need to.

Would that also hold true to using 2 pole breakers on MWBC's that were existing when only doing a panel swap?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> you could use listed handle ties too.....doesn't have to be a 2 pole breaker


I got a 20/20 quad on the van. I will just replace the 2 tandems at the bottom right.
I may have a 20 amp 2 pole as well for the left side.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I got a 20/20 quad on the van. I will just replace the 2 tandems at the bottom right.
> I may have a 20 amp 2 pole as well for the left side.


 
that still won't fix the other tandem breakers in the panel that are in the wrong spots


I highly doubt that's a 30/60 panel.....Im not even sure they make one 
and if they did, a straight 40 would be cheaper and easier to get


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> MWBC's not on 2-pole breakers.


We just did a panel upgrade a couple of weeks ago where I ran 3 MWBC's to the existing panel in the house to extend the original circuits to the new panel.

Inspector did not call me on it.:blink: But then again it was county and this thread deals with state.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> that still won't fix the other tandem breakers in the panel that are in the wrong spots
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that's a 30/60 panel.....Im not even sure they make one
> and if they did, *a straight 40 would be cheaper and easier to get*


Are you basing that on where you are or where I am?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Are you basing that on where you are or where I am?


 
I base that on supply and demand along with manufacturers rebates

the most frequently used panels would be lower priced


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> I base that on supply and demand along with manufacturers rebates
> 
> the most frequently used panels would be lower priced


I do not disagree with that statement, but I was originally looking for a 40 space panel to begin with.
This is all I could get based on the fact I have no control over where my company purchases material.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

https://platt.com/platt-electric-su...ker/Eaton/BR4040B200/product.aspx?zpid=269787

40 circuit $157

https://platt.com/platt-electric-su...ker/Eaton/BR3040B200/product.aspx?zpid=269767

30/40 circuit $169


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> *that still won't fix the other tandem breakers in the panel that are in the wrong spots*
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that's a 30/60 panel.....Im not even sure they make one
> and if they did, a straight 40 would be cheaper and easier to get


I am going to touch on this one more time. I am just looking for answers.
Are those breakers in the wrong spot because you think they are?
If a new tandem breaker plugs into that slot(s) without being modified and said breaker(s) are listed for use in said panel, is it a code or MFG violation to place them there?

I will move them if needed, but I have not seen any evidence that those breakers are not suppose to be there other than your word without anything other than your word to back it up.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> https://platt.com/platt-electric-su...ker/Eaton/BR4040B200/product.aspx?zpid=269787
> 
> 40 circuit $157
> 
> ...


We do not get our materials from that supply house.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If it's a 30/40 panel, then only 10 spaces would accept tandems.

The only way around that is if you are using cheater tandems.


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I am going to touch on this one more time. I am just looking for answers. Are those breakers in the wrong spot because you think they are? If a new tandem breaker plugs into that slot(s) without being modified and said breaker(s) are listed for use in said panel, is it a code or MFG violation to place them there? I will move them if needed, but I have not seen any evidence that those breakers are not suppose to be there other than your word without anything other than your word to back it up.


It should tell you on the cover what spaces you can use tandems on.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

The CPSC should attack 20/40 GE panels.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I am going to touch on this one more time. I am just looking for answers.
> Are those breakers in the wrong spot because you think they are?
> If a new tandem breaker plugs into that slot(s) without being modified and said breaker(s) are listed for use in said panel, is it a code or MFG violation to place them there?
> 
> I will move them if needed, but I have not seen any evidence that those breakers are not suppose to be there other than your word without anything other than your word to back it up.


try reading this REAL slow

if....the....buss....bar....on....that....panel....is....not....notched.....then....you....cannot....install....tandem....breakers....in....that....spot

for a 30/40 panel only the bottom 5 spots are rated for tandems

UNLESS you are using a tandem breaker (which are more expensive) that are designed for older 30/40 panels then they will not fit without modifying the breaker


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> If it's a 30/40 panel, then only 10 spaces would accept tandems.
> 
> The only way around that is if you are using cheater tandems.


Ok, that helps. I doubt they are "cheater tandems" (I guess that means field modification), but I will check.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I am going to touch on this one more time. I am just looking for answers.
> Are those breakers in the wrong spot because you think they are?
> If a new tandem breaker plugs into that slot(s) without being modified and said breaker(s) are listed for use in said panel, is it a code or MFG violation to place them there?
> 
> I will move them if needed, but I have not seen any evidence that those breakers are not suppose to be there other than your word without anything other than your word to back it up.


It's a violation of the UL listing for the panel


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

Are you kidding me. Are youanapprentice doing side work because thats the stuff they would do


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> try reading this REAL slow
> 
> if....the....buss....bar....on....that....panel....is....not....notched.....then....you....cannot....install....tandem....breakers....in....that....spot


I guess that was necessary for your own reasons.


drspec said:


> for a 30/40 panel only the bottom 5 spots are rated for tandems


I am not going to argue that going because I do or did not know this



drspec said:


> UNLESS you are using a tandem breaker (which are more expensive) that are designed for older 30/40 panels then they will not fit without modifying the breaker


These tandem breakers were originally in the existing BR panel. They are not the older types, they have not been field modified. They plugged right in.

NOW READ SLOWLY.:laughing:
I...WILL....CHECK...NEXT....TIME....I....AM....ON.....THIS.....JOB.



I will even get pictures of the buss for you.:thumbsup:


Sorry about the last part, but damn, when one is trying to get information, some on this forum just like to talk down to others rather than helping.


Eventually I will just have to get used to it.:thumbup:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I guess that was necessary for your own reasons.
> 
> 
> I am not going to argue that going because I do or did not know this
> ...


 
I mentioned the notched buss and the bottom five spots a few pages back and you STILL chose not to listen and question it

do you think the manufacturer notched a few spots of the buss for ****s and giggles?


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

bkmichael65 said:


> It's a violation of the UL listing for the panel


Now why did not someone come out and say that?

So even if the breakers plug in, it is a UL violation? I mean I am familiar with MFGs designing the buss so they will not accept tandems or slims.

I would think a MFG would not have a buss or part of a buss designed to fit tandems or slims if their's or UL intended for tandems or slims not to plug in.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> I mentioned the notched buss and the bottom five spots a few pages back and you STILL chose not to listen and question it
> 
> *do you think the manufacturer notched a few spots of the buss for ****s and giggles?*


I do not know. I know what you mentioned, but unless you can see the buss through the pictures I posted then neither you nor I know whether or not the buss is notched.

You have posted as if you already know if that buss is notched or not.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Now why did not someone come out and say that?
> 
> So even if the breakers plug in, it is a UL violation? I mean I am familiar with MFGs designing the buss so they will not accept tandems or slims.
> 
> I would think a MFG would not have a buss or part of a buss designed to fit tandems or slims if their's or UL intended for tandems or slims not to plug in.


 
I'll ask you this and then I'm done

As you can see by your install a Siemens/ITE breaker will fit in the BR panel

GE, ITE, Homeline and BR will FIT in each of the other manufacturers panel

DO YOU REALLY NEED SOMEONE HERE TO TELL YOU THAT WOULD BE IN VIOLATION OF THE UL LISTING?


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> I'll ask you this and then I'm done
> 
> As you can see by your install a Siemens/ITE breaker will fit in the BR panel
> 
> ...


I am not worried about that 30 amp single pole breaker right at this moment.
We were talking about the tandem breakers.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

You ever see one of these on the panel cover


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

How many bedrooms are in that house? If there are 6 or 7, then I see why you installed that many AFCIs. But if there are only 3 or 4, you went overboard on them as Tn only requires AFCI protection for bedrooms.

Also, why do you think they call the panels 30/40? Means there are 30 spaces but you could have 40 circuits using the bottom 5 spaces for tandems. 

I don't know why you would have a problem getting a 40 space C/H panel. You can't walk in any S/H or big box here and not trip over one.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sparky402 said:


> You ever see one of these on the panel cover
> 
> View attachment 30421


Yes I have.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Yes I have.


Well that tells you where you can put your tandems.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

That's it! 

Aftershockews is fed up with all of you and your rules and professionalism.
*
YOU'RE ALL ON IGNORE!*


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> How many bedrooms are in that house? If there are 6 or 7, then I see why you installed that many AFCIs. But if there are only 3 or 4, you went overboard on them as Tn only requires AFCI protection for bedrooms.
> 
> Also, why do you think they call the panels 30/40? Means there are 30 spaces but you could have 40 circuits using the bottom 5 spaces for tandems.
> 
> I don't know why you would have a problem getting a 40 space C/H panel. You can't walk in any S/H or big box here and not trip over one.


It is now a 5 bedroom house. It was originally a 3 bedroom and at the time it was built only the receptacles of the bedrooms were required to be AFCI protected.

Now both lights and receptacles need to be protected.

I added 8 lights to the original master bedroom, thus we now have 1 new 15 amp AFCI

It took 2 light circuits for the upstairs bedrooms. 1 bedroom has 7 light openings plus 3 additional for attic space. Thus 2 15 amp AFCI's.

The other bedroom has 9 light openings plus 2 light openings for the equipment closet. Now we are at 3 15 amp AFCI's.

the 2 bedrooms combined with the hall upstairs required 2 20 amp AFCI's so I would not go over 16 receptacle openings per circuit, thus now we are up to 3 15 amp AFCI's and 2 20 amp AFCI's.

I hope that cleared it up.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sparky402 said:


> Well that tells you where you can put your tandems.


I will check when I need to go back.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Finishing up an attic conversion where we swapped out the 20/40 for a 30/40 in order to gain more spaces for the added AFCI's.
> 
> Co worker did the swap. I gave him the heads up about matching the hot and neutral for the existing 2 AFCI's and the 5 we added. I went upstairs to button up some things.
> 
> ...


You're such a hack.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> It is now a 5 bedroom house. It was originally a 3 bedroom and at the time it was built only the receptacles of the bedrooms were required to be AFCI protected.
> 
> Now both lights and receptacles need to be protected.
> 
> ...


Complicates things a bit since you are dealing with existing wiring. You mentioned attic space and equipment closet. Neither of those require AFCI unless they are in the same room as the bedroom. But I suppose you ran them off the bedroom circuits.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> Complicates things a bit since you are dealing with existing wiring. You mentioned attic space and equipment closet. Neither of those require AFCI unless they are in the same room as the bedroom. But I suppose you ran them off the bedroom circuits.


Yes, to keep from running additional circuits, I combine what I can on any circuit I run.


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> the 2 bedrooms combined with the hall upstairs required 2 20 amp AFCI's so I would not go over 16 receptacle openings per circuit, thus now we are up to 3 15 amp AFCI's and 2 20 amp AFCI's.


Is the 16 outlets per circuit a TN amendment?


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

rrolleston said:


> Is the 16 outlets per circuit a TN amendment?


I do not know. It is a county amendment. Before I started this job I tried to get info from the web and this site on what the state requires but to no avail. So I roughed this job to county specs.


----------



## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Finishing up an attic conversion where we swapped out the 20/40 for a 30/40 in order to gain more spaces for the added AFCI's.
> 
> Co worker did the swap. I gave him the heads up about matching the hot and neutral for the existing 2 AFCI's and the 5 we added. I went upstairs to button up some things.
> 
> ...


I don't even think your an electrician.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I don't even think your an electrician.


That pretty much sums it up.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I don't even think your an electrician.


The first 4 words of your post account for your credibility.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> The first 4 words of your post account for your credibility.


The 5th is ok though


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sparky402 said:


> The 5th is ok though


Sure, the word "your" is fine


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

sorry bro. I want to stick up for you, but you gotta go back and do it over.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Sure, the word "your" is fine


Not in your post in the post you were posting about.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rewire said:


> If the main disconnect is in the panel then you bond here and the neutral buss and ground buss. do not need to be separated and grounding and grounded conductors can be landed anyplace on either buss. If you are allowing an inspector to tell you otherwise you don't understand code.


They're is nothing wrong with doing it that way in fact it will make a panel look neater,you just want to jump in the pig pile.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

You're not your.

Why don't people flip panelboard's so the entrance is on the proper side. I hate that stuff.

He doesn't know if 16 receptacles on a circuit is even allowed, but he does it. wtf!


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

I am also confused why so many people don't flip the panel and run the wire right into the breaker instead of going all the way from bottom to the top. I see this done so many times. When I do see the panel flipped with the breaker on the bottom the feed is from the top. Is this done for a certain reason?


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

FrunkSlammer said:


> You're not your.
> 
> Why don't people flip panelboard's so the entrance is on the proper side. I hate that stuff.
> 
> He doesn't know if 16 receptacles on a circuit is even allowed, but he does it. wtf!


I would make sure I knew I had to do it before spending the extra 45 for a afci. Every bit extra in my pocket I can get the better it is.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

the only thing that looks good in this panel is the waste of colored tape. is it taped in the conduit too? only have to do it for#8 or smaller. or if you work for chuck e cheese electric.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Hmm, that brings up a question. I had asked in another thread about being required to install combination AFCI's on an existing AFCI circuit if I was just doing a panel swap and was informed I would not need to.
> 
> Would that also hold true to using 2 pole breakers on MWBC's that were existing when only doing a panel swap?


You don't need any unless you're adding a new circuit .

Also you don't have to leave the white wire on your AFCI's curled up like that ,just stretch out that wire so it's strait and cut it to fit in your neutral bar.


----------



## boora2 (Jan 28, 2012)

Why do you Mericans persist with AL busbars in swicthboards,tried this idea in the 1970's in some states of Australia along with AL romex but due to fires being traced to this stuff,we normally tell people where we see this crap,it's just gotta go,on another note,please pray for all the victims of the bushfires in NSW,my sister lost her house at Springwood,but managed to save Dracula,her vampire kitty and her 77 Chevy Caprice fitted with a 454,built 700r4 trans,3.73 posi rear,etc.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

alot of stuff that looks like al is tinned cu. hard to tell the difference though.


----------



## oldblue (Mar 2, 2013)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I don't even think your an electrician.



I'm an unlicensed informally trained HVAC guy that plays electrician and you won't even find any of my panels looking like this. He!! my illiterate dumb as a box of rocks helper that I trained would make up a better panel then this and he's never done one by himself.


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> They're is nothing wrong with doing it that way in fact it will make a panel look neater,you just want to jump in the pig pile.


Would be really nice if panels had ground and neutral bars on both sides it makes a mess when crossing your grounds and neutrals over to the other side especially in 40 space sub panels where it's required.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

rrolleston said:


> Would be really nice if panels had ground and neutral bars on both sides it makes a mess when crossing your grounds and neutrals over to the other side especially in 40 space sub panels where it's required.


Cutler Hammer panels have them on both sides just pick up an extra ground bar.:thumbsup:


----------



## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

.....


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

rrolleston said:


> Is the 16 outlets per circuit a TN amendment?





aftershockews said:


> I do not know. It is a county amendment. Before I started this job I tried to get info from the web and this site on what the state requires but to no avail. So I roughed this job to county specs.


Here is Tn's amendment for AFCI:



> In Article 210.12(B) of the 2008 NEC, arc-fault circuit interupters, combination type, shall be required for all bedrooms and in all other rooms shall be optional. There shall be a maximum of no more than ten (10) outlets on a fifteen (15) ampere circuit or no more than twelve (12) outlets on a twenty (20) ampere circuit.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

16, 10... 

What's the difference to someone who's not actually an electrician?


----------



## shadowcaster44 (May 6, 2013)

All this and no one says nothing about the panel being up side down.The branch circuits and bare grounds should never be in dead front area with main feed.WOW,that would never fly here.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

shadowcaster44 said:


> All this and no one says nothing about the panel being up side down.The branch circuits and bare grounds should never be in dead front area with main feed.WOW,that would never fly here.


Some of us did.



FrunkSlammer said:


> Why don't people flip panelboard's so the entrance is on the proper side. I hate that stuff.
> 
> He doesn't know if 16 receptacles on a circuit is even allowed, but he does it. wtf!


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

shadowcaster44 said:


> All this and no one says nothing about the panel being up side down.The branch circuits and bare grounds should never be in dead front area with main feed.WOW,that would never fly here.


Because none of that foolishness applies in the USA! :thumbsup:









Actually I would support a code change requiring the service conductors to be guarded like they are in Canada


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> Here is Tn's amendment for AFCI:


Where were you when I asked for this info before I started this job?

I could not find any amendments online and not one person answered a request when I asked..

Oh well.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/tn-amendments-nec-58008/


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

oldblue said:


> I'm an unlicensed informally trained HVAC guy that plays electrician and you won't even find any of my panels looking like this. He!! my illiterate dumb as a box of rocks helper that I trained would make up a better panel then this and he's never done one by himself.


Post pics of your electrical work.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Post pics of your electrical work.


Post pics of your electrical work!

Because every picture you post of work is your "coworkers" or "helpers" or some other dummy.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sparky402 said:


> Not in your post in the post you were posting about.


Just in the post I posted. Why are you here? Oh never mind, just trolling eh?:thumbsup:


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Damn Canadians are just like liberals when it comes to government issues. Always sticking their noses where they don't belong.
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Damn Canadians are just like liberals when it comes to government issues. Always sticking their noses where they don't belong.
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


You posted this on the internet.

Internet
noun
a *global *computer network providing a variety of information and communication facilities, consisting of interconnected networks using standardized communication protocols.​
Yeah.. global, around the world. That means inside USA and outside USA. Next time post on your intranet and talk to your "helper" about his hack work.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

And there is FrunkSlammer to prove my point.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

FrunkSlammer said:


> You posted this on the internet.
> 
> Internet
> noun
> ...










He really meant to say Canadians keep out.​


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I guess FrunkSlammer also posts his likes and dislikes on male gay sites, since they are on the INTERNET .:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Damn Canadians are just like liberals when it comes to government issues. Always sticking their noses where they don't belong.
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


You don't have to be a Canadian to point out that you're a hack and don't know what you're doing.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> You don't have to be a Canadian to point out that you're a hack and don't know what you're doing.


I had to quote this because im out of thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

> This message is hidden because Rochsolid is on your ignore list.


I do this because it is best. You guys just can't keep your noses in your own business.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I do this because it is best. You guys just can't keep your noses in your own business.


Ignoring everyone does not make you less of a hack


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> Ignoring everyone does not make you less of a hack


If calling me names makes you feel better about your shortcomings then go ahead. I can only pity you.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Where were you when I asked for this info before I started this job?
> 
> I could not find any amendments online and not one person answered a request when I asked..
> 
> Oh well.


Ever hear of a PM?
Sometimes I'm busy and don't get on often.
When I'm on, I sure don't read every thread.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> Ever hear of a PM?
> Sometimes I'm busy and don't get on often.
> When I'm on, I sure don't read every thread.


I do not know or memorize where everyone is located. I did not know you were located in TN until this thread.
I will see how the final goes. If I have to, I can get another circuit from the panel.


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Because none of that foolishness applies in the USA! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks BBQ....I know which movie I want to watch tonight. :thumbsup: I agree with the guarding too.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I am curious, what is the reasoning behind the need for the guard? Fewer spaces to bring circuits in through the top. Is that only for panels with mains or subs too?


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I am curious, what is the reasoning behind the need for the guard? Fewer spaces to bring circuits in through the top. Is that only for panels with mains or subs too?


Just for mains, because you can't flip a switch and make it unenergized.. so it should be guarded. Otherwise I suppose one needs to wear complete PPE when working in the panel. (yeah right, nobody does that) Which is why its easier to put a piece of metal between.


----------



## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I do this because it is best. You guys just can't keep your noses in your own business.


This is everyone's business, you posted your work and asked what everyone thought. And as for your post in the other thread about your hack work, your rant about how your just doing what you can to make money is BS. There is a code for a reason, and good electricians follow it and still make a **** ton of money, your a fly by night hack, that chops in ****ty work at every one of your jobs, and blames it on your "co worker"


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

May I make the suggestion that people be careful about what they post of their own work. It becomes public knowledge. The way people are these days, how what was posted would be interpreted might not be in your favor, technically legal or not. Its one thing if this is something you had found. There are crazy people out there looking to profit however they can and just hoping they will find someone who'll settle rather than fight. As you get closer to possibly being in business for yourself, it becomes critical that you consider how you conduct yourself. Those of us who have been doing this for awhile know what I am talking about. Having to defend what you have done is no fun.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Where were you when I asked for this info before I started this job?
> 
> I could not find any amendments online and not one person answered a request when I asked..
> 
> Oh well.


You are blaming the people on this website because you didn't know your state's amendments?

Aren't you the same guy that claims to be running a dying man's company?


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow! You really su(k ! Please leave this forum to real electricians and go to DIY forums.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> If calling me names makes you feel better about your shortcomings then go ahead. I can only pity you.


 
:laughing::laughing:

dude, you came here and posted hack work and expected a pat on the back?

everyone here, including myself, in the beginning tried to tell you what was wrong with your install

but you were too stubborn to accept that you had anything wrong

you were just looking for justification to leave your hack work in place with no corrections

sorry, but that's just not going to happen

if you truly wanted to learn, you would listen and accept criticism

Ive posted my own work here in the past and have definitely taken what people have said into consideration without getting upset about it

but if you want to continue doing things your way and get pissed when someone points out how wrong it is, you're never going to be anything but a hack electrician

if you're ok with that, then so be it


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Still using tandems after doing a panel swap is pretty sad. 40 circuit panels are fricken EVERYWHERE man. Moreso, not reading the panel cover to see where you can put tandems is hack. Using white tape to identify conductors going to circuits is Hack. Doubling neutrals up is hack. Multi-wire branch circuits without simultaneously disconnecting the ungrounded conductors is hack. Not tidying up the pigtails on AFCI breakers is hack.

Here is a pic of my panel work. No zipties, no using wire to bundle conductors together:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

For Christ sake back off this guy a little. Try being constructive and help the guy. This is embarrassing.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

> Multi-wire branch circuits without simultaneously disconnecting the ungrounded conductors is hack.


It is true that that is against code, but up until the 2008 cycle, nobody installed handle ties/multi pole breakers on MWBCs.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> For Christ sake back off this guy a little. Try being constructive and help the guy. This is embarrassing.


:lol::lol:


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

OP you may want to consider continues schooling or electrical refresher courses.
we all have room for improvement.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> For Christ sake back off this guy a little. Try being constructive and help the guy. This is embarrassing.


Gold,

have you read the entire thread?

people have tried helping him

he is bullheaded and doesn't want to listen

its his way or no way

he is kind of like B4T, he's looking for the ONE person to justify his wrongs

he doesn't care if a million other people disagree with him as long as he finds that ONE person


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Still using tandems after doing a panel swap is pretty sad. 40 circuit panels are fricken EVERYWHERE man. Moreso, not reading the panel cover to see where you can put tandems is hack. Using white tape to identify conductors going to circuits is Hack. Doubling neutrals up is hack. Multi-wire branch circuits without simultaneously disconnecting the ungrounded conductors is hack. Not tidying up the pigtails on AFCI breakers is hack.
> 
> Here is a pic of my panel work. No zipties, no using wire to bundle conductors together:


Those loops are hack.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

drspec said:


> Gold,
> 
> have you read the entire thread?
> 
> ...


Yeah I read the thread. Thats why I said it. IMO this is the kind of thread that needs a lock.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Yeah I read the thread. Thats why I said it. IMO this is the kind of thread that needs a lock.


You are so gay.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You are so gay.


That works out fine for you ...:whistling2:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

HackWork said:


> You are so gay.


So is your crippled truck driving Mom. 

Time for eggs.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> So is your crippled truck driving Mom.
> 
> Time for eggs.


Are you aware that there are people in this world that have a severe medical condition which causes them to be that way? My mother for instance is one of those people. She is a truck driver that has bad knees and a bad back from driving the truck but you probably do not care about that case either. Oh well I am not one of those people I am 6'4" 245lbs and I exercise every day. I would love to see you say something like to my mother in front of me. Probably never happen though you are probably just an internet tough guy. I doubt very seriously you would say that to someones face. Just my thought.What do you think. Oh I am sorry you probably do not have a brain. I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Here is a pic of my panel work.


...and the added bonus of the NM ID sleeves :thumbsup:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

I lost tally keeping track of how many times the OP stated:
- I forgot
- Next time I go back
- I don't know


Anyone keeping score ?
:laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> ...Time for eggs.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> For Christ sake back off this guy a little. Try being constructive and help the guy. This is embarrassing.


The Cletis/aftershockews posting usually follows this format:


Cletis/aftershockews : look at the crap job my helper did
Peanut Gallery: So go fix it
Cletis/aftershockews: Next time I go back
Peanut Gallery: When will that be
Cletis/aftershockews: I don't know
Peanut Gallery: You should really make it a point to fix that ASAP, PDQ and STAT
Cletis/aftershockews: You have shortcomings
Peanut Gallery: ...like whatever, go fix that crap
Cletis/aftershockews: Be constructive, not mean
Peanut Gallery: getting real tired of your crap
Cletis/aftershockews: I put you on ignore
Peanut Gallery: Cletis/aftershockews cannot see your message because you are on his ignore list
Cletis/aftershockews: I took you off ignore
Peanut Gallery: ?


It's a great comedy routine, but it's getting a bit stale. :jester:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

HackWork said:


> A I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.


Just how big is NJ that we need to travel around in planes to insult each face to face?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

That was good. Haven't had scrapple in a while.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Just how big is NJ that we need to travel around in planes to insult each face to face?


Gold likes to travel in style.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> It's a great comedy routine, but it's getting a bit stale. :jester:


Who's on first?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Yeah none of that rental van crap for me.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Gold likes to travel in style.


So, will that be a 1st class ticket or a private G6 you are paying for :laughing:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Who's on first?


The helper :thumbsup:


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Those loops are hack.


I never said I wasn't a hack. :laughing: Old man wants me to do to loops, so the jobs he is on, I do loops. The jobs that I do where he doesn't come around? No loops. :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)




----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Gotta go buy snacks and drinks for the game. 6-0 here we come!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Here's a new panel that I wired up last week, I'm pretty proud of the workmanship I put into it.


View attachment 30481


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Here's a new panel that I wired up last week, I'm pretty proud of the workmanship I put into it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 30481


I just wired up this one. It was a serious budget job so I had to make due with a used panel:



:laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> ...Peanut Gallery: Cletis/aftershockews cannot see your message because you are on his ignore list
> Cletis/aftershockews: I took you off ignore
> Peanut Gallery: ?


 :lol:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

this is one I installed a couple weeks ago


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

....the hell with panel....dude where can I score sum dat 60's paneling:whistling2:


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

RGH said:


> ....the hell with panel....dude where can I score sum dat 60's paneling:whistling2:


Soooooooo ugly. :laughing:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

RGH said:


> ....the hell with panel....dude where can I score sum dat 60's paneling:whistling2:


 
that was actually in a garage 

went there a couple of weeks ago to install some gfci receptacles and fix some issues they were having with lights

tried to sell them on a panel change....still waiting


----------



## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

.....paneling pretty common here to....helped the ol'man hang a whole bunch in the basement about 40 years ago....:laughing:..


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Swingin'


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> For Christ sake back off this guy a little. Try being constructive and help the guy. This is embarrassing.


You should use some smileys to indicate your sarcasm. :laughing:


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Your panels suck mine are great. I put in this bad boy today.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

i need to go back out and fix this one.


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

3xdad said:


> i need to go back out and fix this one.


That is some thinking outside of the box! :laughing:


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> That is some thinking outside of the box! :laughing:


:laughing:

We chuckled fo 'bout a week ana half spoofing various scenarios for it.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

3xdad said:


> i need to go back out and fix this one.


That's fricking beautiful


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

3xdad said:


> :laughing:
> 
> We chuckled fo 'bout a week ana half spoofing various scenarios for it.


Where do you get single pole 100's never seen them.


----------



## Dfresh64 (Sep 10, 2011)

rrolleston said:


> Where do you get single pole 100's never seen them.


Well contractors use them . That's where I gotten them .


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

rrolleston said:


> Where do you get single pole 100's never seen them.


Neither have i.

These were a 2 pole 100 sawn in half for some reason.


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> Your panels suck mine are great. I put in this bad boy today.


in misery, i wouldnt be surprised!:whistling2:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

3xdad said:


> i need to go back out and fix this one.


That says well guy. :laughing:


----------



## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

3xdad said:


> i need to go back out and fix this one.


They hired the gardener.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> Finishing up an attic conversion where we swapped out the 20/40 for a 30/40 in order to gain more spaces for the added AFCI's.
> 
> Co worker did the swap. I gave him the heads up about matching the hot and neutral for the existing 2 AFCI's and the 5 we added. I went upstairs to button up some things.
> 
> ...


it looks good with the deadfront on. You label breakers the same way I do when doing a panel swap. the very last thing I do before collecting the check is label the deadfront, to try to limit mistakes on the final breaker directory.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I had to splice some hots and neutrals to make the best of it.


I could be wrong, but I was always told that panels are not rated for splices.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> I could be wrong, but I was always told that panels are not rated for splices.


Yes you could be wrong. Matter of fact, you are wrong.  75 % cross sectional area of them are.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> I was always told that panels are not rated for splices.


Now why would that be?


Anyway check out NEC 312.8, read the entire paragraph not just the first sentence.


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

3xdad said:


> Neither have i.
> 
> These were a 2 pole 100 sawn in half for some reason.


Must have been what they guy at home depot or lowes suggested.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> I could be wrong, but I was always told that panels are not rated for splices.


What a piss poor attempt at trolling


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I never said I wasn't a hack. :laughing: Old man wants me to do to loops, so the jobs he is on, I do loops. The jobs that I do where he doesn't come around? No loops. :thumbup::laughing:


What does he say the loops are for?


----------



## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

OMG this was a GREAT read!!!!

It has everything, drama, comedy, thrills, learning......and pictures too.

I like pictures.

will there be a sequel to this thread?


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

five.five-six said:


> I could be wrong, but I was always told that panels are not rated for splices.


It's a California myth, that I've heard since day 1. I just had to point out the article to an inspector last week, and he said I know, but I don't like seeing them ! 



electricmanscott said:


> What a piss poor attempt at trolling


It's a local inspector thing.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> It's a California myth, that I've heard since day 1. I just had to point out the article to an inspector last week, and he said I know, but I don't like seeing them !


Than he will need to learn when to close his eyes.


----------



## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

dronai said:


> It's a California myth, that I've heard since day 1. I just had to point out the article to an inspector last week, and he said I know, but I don't like seeing them !
> 
> 
> 
> It's a local inspector thing.


another inspector enforcing his opinion not the NEC? :no:

Do tell...... :laughing:


----------



## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

SparkyDino said:


> will there be a sequel to this thread?


Oh yes indeed. This is not Aftershockews first hackjob thread.. he's had a half dozen or more.. they're always very popular.

Next week will be another hack job done by his "helper". :laughing:


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

8V71 said:


> What does he say the loops are for?


He has never explained why, and just says "Stop f*cking asking me about them, that's how we do it, so do it." :laughing:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have to admit, making loops has saved me some trouble a few times over the years when things needed to be changed.


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> He has never explained why, and just says "Stop f*cking asking me about them, that's how we do it, so do it." :laughing:


I feel your pain. I work with my dad. I have just weaned him from his loops.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

If Obama had and electrician for a son, the work he did would look like this:



aftershockews said:


>


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> If Obama had and electrician for a son, the work he did would look like this:


Your point being?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Mate said:


> Your point being?


His point was that if Obama had a son who was an electrician this is what his work would look like.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The point was he hates Obama and tried to make a stupid joke that failed. :thumbsup:


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have to admit, making loops has saved me some trouble a few times over the years when things needed to be changed.


A few times for me too when a breaker failed and a connection heated up. Sucks when there is not enough to cut the wire and reconnect. I hate having to splice or run a new feed because there is no slack.


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> His point was that if Obama had a son who was an electrician this is what his work would look like.


Ah ok thanks for the clarification! Still a dumb statement


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Mate said:


> Ah ok thanks for the clarification! Still a dumb statement


I didn't say it.


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Blah blah bama blah blah merican blah blah


Look at the evidence.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have to admit, making loops has saved me some trouble a few times over the years when things needed to be changed.


Yea because you can't wirenut in a panel in an emergency.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea because you can't wirenut in a panel in an emergency.


We were talking about feeders.

In new installations splicing in a brand new panel is almost too hack for me.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HackWork said:


> We were talking about feeders.


It is not his fault he is slow.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Mate said:


> Ah ok thanks for the clarification! Still a dumb statement


Wait, you don't get it? LOL.....what were you saying was dumb? :laughing:


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> In new installations splicing in a brand new panel is almost too hack for me.


In a new instalation, the only valid excuse for wirenutting wires is that your helper cut them too short.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The point was he hates Obama and tried to make a stupid joke that failed. :thumbsup:


I actually laughed. :blink: loud racist laughter


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

dronai said:


> It's a California myth, that I've heard since day 1. I just had to point out the article to an inspector last week, and he said I know, but I don't like seeing them !
> 
> 
> 
> It's a local inspector thing.


What a MoRon


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

electricmanscott said:


> I actually laughed. :blink: loud racist laughter


Racist love Obama, Obama's only redeeming quality is that he is 1/2 black.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> If Stevie Wonder was an electrician, the work he did would look like this:


FIFY :thumbsup:


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Celtic said:


> FIFY :thumbsup:


Close, what I was actualy saying is that it seems *aftershockews* is the Travon Matin of electricians.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> Close, what I was actualy saying is that it seems *aftershockews* is the Travon Matin of electricians.


Who is Travon Matin?

If you mean Tra*y*von Ma*r*tin [Florida, Zimmerman, etc]...ummm, no....and comparing the two is in very bad taste.


----------



## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> Close, what I was actualy saying is that it seems *aftershockews* is the Travon Matin of electricians.


Not funny


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Celtic said:


> Who is Travon Matin?
> 
> If you mean Tra*y*von Ma*r*tin [Florida, Zimmerman, etc]...ummm, no....and comparing the two is in very bad taste.


Martin went out of his way to earn that bullet, it's in perfactly good taste.


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> Close, what I was actualy saying is that it seems aftershockews is the Travon Matin of electricians.


Holy chit you do know this is the internet right? This is either your fist day here or you think we have never seen a troll before.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Who is Travon Matin?
> 
> If you mean Tra*y*von Ma*r*tin [Florida, Zimmerman, etc]...ummm, no....and comparing the two is in very bad taste.





Mate said:


> Not funny


I have to side with the troll on this one. Trayvon sucked at being a thug. Aftershock (oops I mean his helper :whistling2: ) sucks at being an "electrician".


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Who is Travon Matin?
> 
> If you mean Tra*y*von Ma*r*tin [Florida, Zimmerman, etc]...ummm, no....and comparing the two is in very bad taste.





Mate said:


> Not funny


What? Too soon?


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

*My work is done here*



electricmanscott said:


> What a piss poor attempt at trolling


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I was back yesterday wiring up can lights in the garage. While in the panel, I pulled one of the br1515 tandems.

Sure enough, the buss should not accept a tandem. I checked the front of the breaker and it was not modified.:001_huh:

I am not a breaker expert. Can someone tell me why this breaker would fit where it shouldn't?


I am going to move any tandems down to the lower 5 slots when I trim out the garage.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I was back yesterday wiring up can lights in the garage. While in the panel, I pulled one of the br1515 tandems. Sure enough, the buss should not accept a tandem. I checked the front of the breaker and it was not modified.:001_huh: I am not a breaker expert. Can someone tell me why this breaker would fit where it shouldn't? http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/A...TERSHOCK/WP_20131023_002_zps08b66442.jpg.html I am going to move any tandems down to the lower 5 slots when I trim out the garage.


They sell cheater tandems that will fit anywhere for double the cost.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparky402 said:


> They sell cheater tandems that will fit anywhere for double the cost.


This^

Altho sometimes they aren't that much more. Square D's definitely are. But I bought some CH BR cheaters the other day for $13 while the normals were $10.17.


aftershockews, the breakers that are compliant to use in that panel would have a little metal clip in the slot stopping it from being so deep.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sparky402 said:


> They sell cheater tandems that will fit anywhere for double the cost.


Is this the MFG doing it? It would seem so since the name is on the breaker.

And if this is the case, then using this breaker on the part of the buss that was designed to accept full size breakers would not be a listing issue?

This is where I had been confused throughout this discussion, but some just prey on that to resort to name calling.


----------



## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

aftershockews said:


> I was back yesterday wiring up can lights in the garage. While in the panel, I pulled one of the br1515 tandems.
> 
> Sure enough, the buss should not accept a tandem. I checked the front of the breaker and it was not modified.:001_huh:
> 
> ...


Yup, those are tandems without rejection clips.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> aftershockews, the breakers that are compliant to use in that panel would have a little metal clip in the slot stopping it from being so deep.


I know that part.

If the breaker I showed in the picture is not listed for use in the panel picture I posted in this thread, then which panel is it listed for?


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I know that part.
> 
> If the breaker I showed in the picture is not listed for use in the panel picture I posted in this thread, then which panel is it listed for?


I am going to have to study up more on these Eaton panels.

I am used to 20/40's and mainly GE


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> I know that part.
> 
> If the breaker I showed in the picture is not listed for use in the panel picture I posted in this thread, then which panel is it listed for?


It's called a non-CTL breaker. I'm not sure where it is code compliant to use it. I believe it says for replacement use only, but I am not sure if even that is compliant.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Is this the MFG doing it? It would seem so since the name is on the breaker.
> 
> And if this is the case, then using this breaker on the part of the buss that was designed to accept full size breakers would not be a listing issue?
> 
> This is where I had been confused throughout this discussion, but some just prey on that to resort to name calling.


 Check your panel and see if the buss is designed for tandems at the bottom . As long as the breaker is accepted on the buss I don't see anything that would make it non compliant. Eaton states all their breakers have rejection tabs.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rewire said:


> Eaton states all their breakers have rejection tabs.


No they don't.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No they don't.


 from eaton site
All BR circuit breakers have rejection tab feature.
Units feature a quick-make, quick-break switch mechanism combined with inverse time element tripping operation and trip-free handle design.


I should have been specific and said BR


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

If this is like the older CH panels, they have an extended tab on the panel for the tandem breaker spaces. The tandems will fit anywhere but they are only held in by the bus bar spring tension and miss the extended tab on the panel. Seems kinda backwards to me.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rewire said:


> from eaton site
> All BR circuit breakers have rejection tab feature.
> Units feature a quick-make, quick-break switch mechanism combined with inverse time element tripping operation and trip-free handle design.
> 
> ...


I don't know what situation that is talking about. But I can tell you for a fact that Eaton makes CH BR breakers without the rejection clip. The OP is using them in his panel, I used them the other day as well as many other times over the years, I'm sure everyone here has seen them.


----------



## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I don't know what situation that is talking about. But I can tell you for a fact that Eaton makes CH BR breakers without the rejection clip. The OP is using them in his panel, I used them the other day as well as many other times over the years, I'm sure everyone here has seen them.


 http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...BRCircuitBreakers/BRThermalMagnetic/index.htm


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rewire said:


> http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...BRCircuitBreakers/BRThermalMagnetic/index.htm


I saw that, read my post.

Apparently the reason why it says that is because the tandems for those panels are type BD or BDR.


----------



## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

I try to stay away from ch panels.


----------



## Guntrician (Jun 20, 2012)

Well, that's an hour I'll never get back. That was freaking hilarious though.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> I was back yesterday wiring up can lights in the garage. While in the panel, I pulled one of the br1515 tandems.
> 
> Sure enough, the buss should not accept a tandem. I checked the front of the breaker and it was not modified.:001_huh:
> 
> ...


 
as myself and a few others tried to tell you earlier in the thread, Eaton makes 2 tandem breakers

1 has the rejection clip and will only fit on the notched buss designed specifically for this. You have a 30/40 panel and the bottom 5 spaces are designed to accept tandems or full size breakers

Now, the 2nd tandem breaker doesn't have the rejection clip. It is manufactured as a replacement for older 20/40, 30/40, etc panels that DID NOT have the notched buss but were designed to accept tandem breakers ONLY in specific locations. 

They changed to the notched buss and the rejection clip tandems because people were using the tandem breakers EVERYWHERE.

Im sure you've seen a straight 40 circuit panel box with 60 circuits in it.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> Im sure you've seen a straight 40 circuit panel box with 60 circuits in it.


Not yet, here they just double tap anything for more circuits, including the main.:laughing:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Not yet, here they just double tap anything for more circuits, including the main.:laughing:


 
Im not trying to be funny, but when you are doing additions and service work, these are the types of things you REALLY need to know.

Could work in your favor or work against you as far as circuit capacity in the breaker box.

Ive had homeowners call me up and say their panel is full and another EC said they had to do a panel upgrade to add circuits. I get there and see that it's a 16/24, 30/40, etc. and get the job.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> Ive had homeowners call me up and say their panel is full and another EC said they had to do a panel upgrade to add circuits. I get there and see that it's a 16/24, 30/40, etc. and get the job.


In your scenario, did what you do create a code or listing violation?


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> In your scenario, did what you do create a code or listing violation?


no, because the panel was listed to accept tandem breakers


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

drspec said:


> no, because the panel was listed to accept tandem breakers


I definitely understand then.When I do bids for additions or added circuits, the first thing I check is the current load on the existing panel. If I can add the load needed, I then check if I can get the space(s) I need for my circuits by checking the panel.

I did not know about the "cheater" breaker from Eaton. I was thinking it meant a field modification of a tandem breaker, which I have done in the past, but do not do anymore.


----------



## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> I did not know about the "cheater" breaker from Eaton. I was thinking it meant a field modification of a tandem breaker, which I have done in the past, but do not do anymore.


Me too, I leave those modifications to my helper.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> It's called a non-CTL breaker. I'm not sure where it is code compliant to use it. I believe it says for replacement use only, but I am not sure if even that is compliant.


Are you talking about the Eaton "CL" breaker?
If so, there is a spec sheet that comes with them that lists the panels that are acceptable to install them in.
You're supposed to leave the paperwork in the panel for the inspector.

That is if it's going to be inspected!:whistling2:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Little-Lectric said:


> Are you talking about the Eaton "CL" breaker?
> If so, there is a spec sheet that comes with them that lists the panels that are acceptable to install them in.
> You're supposed to leave the paperwork in the panel for the inspector.
> 
> That is if it's going to be inspected!:whistling2:


That's different than what we are talking about here.

Here we are talking about CTL and non-CTL tandems.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> That's different than what we are talking about here.
> 
> Here we are talking about CTL and non-CTL tandems.


Oh-Tay then!


----------



## RFguy (Sep 11, 2013)

I guess I can add panel pole capacity to socialized medicine as good reasons to live in Canada 

Our typical CH panel is a rated for 60 poles CSA (Canadian standard), but only 30 poles UL. In residential, we only see full width breakers for circuits above 40-amps or GFCI/AFCI breakers. All the generic loads are all 1/2 width breakers.


----------



## CaptainSparky (May 6, 2013)

Those BR1515 are a NON CTL listed breaker and are for replacement use only. 

There are times in old work situations where that breaker would be used to addd a circuit to an existing panel but never in a new installation. That breaker also cost conciderably more then the BD1515 that is listed for use in that panel.

A BD1515 that is CTL listed can be used in the lower portion of the panel just like dozens have all ready stated.

This topic is driving me BATTY


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> It's called a non-CTL breaker. I'm not sure where it is code compliant to use it. I believe it says for replacement use only, but I am not sure if even that is compliant.





Little-Lectric said:


> Are you talking about the Eaton "CL" breaker?
> If so, there is a spec sheet that comes with them that lists the panels that are acceptable to install them in.
> You're supposed to leave the paperwork in the panel for the inspector.
> 
> That is if it's going to be inspected!:whistling2:


HackWork is referring to CTL (circuit total limitation). The rejection tabs, etc. and bus designs are all part of this. It started in 1965.

I suspect aftershockews is reusing old "non-CTL" tandem breakers which don't have rejection tabs. Or perhaps he found some in Lowe's...I've seen both of the big BigBox stores selling these "for replacement use only" tandems.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

CraigV said:


> I suspect aftershockews is reusing old "non-CTL" tandem breakers which don't have rejection tabs. Or perhaps he found some in Lowe's...I've seen both of the big BigBox stores selling these "for replacement use only" tandems.


I was using the same breakers that were in the 20/40 panel we swapped out.
I took a pic of the lid cover and noticed after the fact that the tandem pics I posted are not for use in the upper part of the panel buss, but can be used in the lower 5 slots.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> I was using the same breakers that were in the 20/40 panel we swapped out.
> I took a pic of the lid cover and noticed after the fact that the tandem pics I posted are not for use in the upper part of the panel buss, but can be used in the lower 5 slots.
> 
> http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/A...TERSHOCK/WP_20131025_001_zpsdb2b482e.jpg.html


What professional in their right mind would put old breakers on a new buss bar?


----------



## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> I was using the same breakers that were in the 20/40 panel we swapped out.
> I took a pic of the lid cover and noticed after the fact that the tandem pics I posted are not for use in the upper part of the panel buss, but can be used in the lower 5 slots.


I think you're missing the point. The tandems that you put in the upper bus slots _should not fit_ there. If they fit in a solid bus tab, then they are non-CTL breakers, which are only legally installed as replacements in *really* old (pre-1965) panels.
You really shouldn't reuse old breakers in a new panel, and if you do, it's important to check to see if they are CTL types that are at least allowed to be there.


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What professional in their right mind would put old breakers on a new buss bar?


He's not a pro what does he care


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Still not pretty.


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## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

Is that 14 gage on that 20 amp bottom right?


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

It looks like a rat's nest


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Mate said:


> Is that 14 gage on that 20 amp bottom right?


No it is not.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

vincevega75 said:


> It looks like a rat's nest


I agree. I did not swap the panel out. I am just doing my best to clean up the mess.


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

Stop using wire nuts in panels but splices look a lot better (when you have to)


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

vincevega75 said:


> It looks like a rat's nest


Damn, just jump right in there, huh?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

vincevega75 said:


> Stop using wire nuts in panels but splices look a lot better (when you have to)


I hate using a crimp type splice unless I have to. But I agree it would look neater.
If I did the panel swap, there would not be any splices. This swap went wrong due to someone else getting ahead of himself.

I did what I could and thanks to the responses to this thread, i corrected issues that I did not realize I had.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

3xdad said:


> Damn, just jump right in there, huh?


He is right, it looks like Medusa's hair doo.:laughing:


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## Mate (Sep 5, 2009)

As stated before, you could shape your neutral from your afci.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Mate said:


> As stated before, you could shape your neutral from your afci.


I know, I did that in another panel i trimmed out. I just did not have the time and money vested to worry about that on this one.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I have to say it looks much better than the earlier version and Im not seeing any immediately noticeable violations


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

It sure doesn't look like a rat's nest to me. It works, it meets code, problems were fixed. If you got paid, all is well. It's one thing to point out code violations and obvious issues like reusing old breakers, but style points don't put money in the bank.


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

That means if you go out and buy a $50,000 car amd the inside looks like crap it's okay just as long as it won't break down any engine works as long as the dealer got paid that's fine


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## someonespecial (Aug 31, 2012)

vincevega75 said:


> Stop using wire nuts in panels but splices look a lot better (when you have to)


Looks the same with the cover on.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

someonespecial said:


> Looks the same with the cover on.


That is a great call from someone with no pride in there work. Then you wonder why we don't get paid enough.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

aftershock would thank that. He doesn't even know what a good job is. 
"It works doesn't it"


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> That is a great call from someone with no pride in there work. Then you wonder why we don't get paid enough.


Who has no pride in their work?


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

When guys say that to me on site that's a red flag that they're not going to be there much longer it takes just as long to do I neat job as it is to do a ugly job your work is an extension of yourself and I do understand it's only a kid doing the panel but you need to keep an eye on them .if there are problems on my site its my fault . I hate it when guys say it looks good from my house .I hand them sharpie and tell them to sign their name on the dog sh.. work


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

vincevega75 said:


> I do understand it's only a kid doing the panel but you need to keep an eye on them .if there are problems on my site its my fault . I hate it when guys say it looks good from my house .I hand them sharpie and tell them to sign their name on the dog sh.. work


This kid so to speak, was being paid my equal. He felt he was my equal due to his attitude when I brought up issues with him. So, ok, swap out this panel. now I have to clean it up.

Am I the one who answers for it? :no:
If he is paid as my equal, then he is responsible. Well he is gone now, so I guess I am responsible for it.


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

That sucks


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

Be glad he's gone so you don't have to clean up anything else that would be the bright side


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> Who has no pride in their work?


going off that last picture... YOU!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> going off that last picture... YOU!


Brush up on your reading skills.
You just made yourself look like an idiot.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Theres a point where neat gets too expensive. I'd say its acceptable. Kudos on going back to fix it Aftershock. You took some sh!t from everyone, made the repairs, and did the right thing. Good job. :thumbsup:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Theres a point where neat gets too expensive. I'd say its acceptable. Kudos on going back to fix it Aftershock. You took some sh!t from everyone, made the repairs, and did the right thing. Good job. :thumbsup:


Thanx, I try my best. Now that it is just me, then i can be sure to have it right. I will post work here for opinions although I do get ****, but it sets me in the right direction if I do make a mistake.


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

You learn from mistakes


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

vincevega75 said:


> You learn from mistakes


If one learns from mistakes, aftershockews must have a PhD in electrical.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

CraigV said:


> It sure doesn't look like a rat's nest to me. It works, it meets code, problems were fixed. If you got paid, all is well. It's one thing to point out code violations and obvious issues like reusing old breakers, but style points don't put money in the bank.





vincevega75 said:


> That means if you go out and buy a $50,000 car amd the inside looks like crap it's okay just as long as it won't break down any engine works as long as the dealer got paid that's fine


No, two completely different sets of requirements. A panel that's wired to look pretty but can't have a circuit relocated without splicing the wires, or that takes an hour of unbundling to get the wires out, is not a plus in my book. Houses and businesses are not a car that will not have its basic circuitry moved or changed, let alone something like the interior or engine.

Poor analogy, sorry.


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

Bull****.. you buy a product it should look good period. and what do you mean a circuit can't be relocated put four square box above it and reroute it. takes 10 minutes for something that looks so much better


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

vincevega75 said:


> Bull****.. you buy a product it should look good period. and what do you mean a circuit can't be relocated put four square box above it and reroute it. takes 10 minutes for something that looks so much better


a 4square above a panel box in a finished wall looks better than a splice in a panel that cant be seen with the cover on?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Come on guys.
the panel looks like chit can we agree on that?
I should have changed it out myself.
I didn't so I had to clean it up.
I found out about cheater breakers in the process because I posted my work.
I did my best to make it look good, but it still looks like chit, BUT, I corrected any code violations due to the members on this forum.

End of story,, what is left to argue?


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

I dont care just advice you can do what ever you want to do .I like details. I wired a sh.. load of panels and I got my way and if you work for me that's how you do it. I have been told I'm anal retentive a lot. i could clean that up nice in 20 mins without a four square but I had a lot of trial and error you learn by doing .you will get there drspec I got a good feeling about you


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## vincevega75 (Nov 1, 2013)

I know it's not ur work


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I'm glad we can use these so called "cheater" breakers in Canada anywhere in the panel. Who's dumb idea was it to only allow tandems to be installed in certain spots?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drspec said:


> a 4square above a panel box in a finished wall looks better than a splice in a panel that cant be seen with the cover on?


:laughing: The first though that popped in my head when I read his post was "this sorry bastard is hitting the crack pipe!!!"


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

vincevega75 said:


> I dont care just advice you can do what ever you want to do .I like details. I wired a sh.. load of panels and I got my way and if you work for me that's how you do it. I have been told I'm anal retentive a lot. i could clean that up nice in 20 mins without a four square but I had a lot of trial and error you learn by doing .you will get there drspec I got a good feeling about you


I'm not saying that a panel wired to look pretty is bad. If you're paying for it and that's the spec, you do it. I've done plenty that way. 

I'm as OCD/anal retentive as anyone. But I also know that the job is what your boss says it is. The OP isn't working for you, and his boss didn't tell him that bundled and cut-to-length conductors were the spec. So he's not being paid to do that. So riding him for not doing that is uncalled-for.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

vincevega75 said:


> Bull****.. you buy a product it should look good period. and what do you mean a circuit can't be relocated put four square box above it and reroute it. takes 10 minutes for something that looks so much better


What about when the panel is in a finished room? Which is what the OP's situation was.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

aftershockews;1142336[URL=http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/AfterShockEWS/media/AFTERSHOCK/WP_20131101_005_zpsd2c691df.jpg.html said:


> [/URL]


You have really nice hand writing.


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