# Federal Pacific



## artisanelec (Aug 6, 2008)

I have a customer that wants to add a few circuits to a FP panel, I told him I would not add any circuits unless he does a panel change.
UNSAFE FIRE HAZARD

What do you guys do in this situation ?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Install a couple used FPE breakers for straight hard cold cash/ no receipt .......or sell a panel change/ add a sub panel with the proper NEC approved AFCI breakers.


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Install a couple used FPE breakers for straight hard cold cash/ no receipt .......or sell a panel change/ add a sub panel with the proper NEC approved AFCI breakers.




As far as I knew you didnt have to install arcfaults on panel change, just when modifications or additions are done to branch wiring. Maybe it's different in your area.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would have no problem adding a small sub and adding new circuits to that. I would even consider adding to it depending on what generation FPE it was.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

There are aftermarket FPE breakers around.. use them.. get paid and move on..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

elecpatsfan said:


> As far as I knew you didnt have to install arcfaults on panel change, just when modifications or additions are done to branch wiring. Maybe it's different in your area.


Correct, sounded as if you were adding ckts and depending where they were going, possible AFCIs might have come into play. Many inspectors in my neck of the woods are NOT enforcing AFCIs for modifications to original branch circuits.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We will not add a breaker to a fp panel. I just price a panel change because the are all old and past replacement age. Here is a replacement bolt in I saw on my parts house desk the other day.


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## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

*trouble free*

I would stick to your guns about a panel change, I know their are a thousand hacks that will breaker off the FP, and add a sub panel. Tell him he can pay for it up front with a panel change or pay for a new house when the main doesnt trip and it burns to the ground.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I give them the facts and let them decide. It's their property.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

PureElectric said:


> I would stick to your guns about a panel change, I know their are a thousand hacks that will breaker off the FP, and add a sub panel.


This is your opinion and if you knew the facts about FPE perhaps changing the panel is overkill. FPE only had trouble during the 80's -- not sure exactly. Panel before that were fine, however, I agree that advising them about the age of the panel is worth it. I would not call it hack.--


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I would recommend the FPE panel be replaced.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> There are aftermarket FPE breakers around.. use them.. get paid and move on..


That's what I'd do. 



PureElectric said:


> I know their are a thousand hacks that will breaker off the FP, and add a sub panel.


"There's a difference between hack work and "hack work". The former is work that is not code compliant and the latter is work that doesn't conform to some people's ideas of how electrical work should be done."

Your "hack work" opinion carries no real weight


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

PureElectric said:


> I would stick to your guns about a panel change, I know their are a thousand hacks that will breaker off the FP, and add a sub panel. Tell him he can pay for it up front with a panel change or pay for a new house when the main doesnt trip and it burns to the ground.


I'm not sure that has much factual basis.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'd recommend it be replaced, but I'm sure not using scare tactics to do it. I've added circuits to old fuse panels and a slew of old breaker panels, and will continue to do so. Never had to add to an FPE since they are fairly rare here thankfully.


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## PureElectric (Aug 5, 2011)

*Hacks*



MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure that has much factual basis.


Many of the FP that I have worked on are dangerous because how little room you have to work in. The reason they all need to be replaced in California is because when you touch any panel ;you are repossible for installing Arc faults in all bedrooms lights and plugs. I shouldnt have said "hacks" because the codes are enforced different from state to state. I will be much more careful on wording. Please let me know if the make an FP Arc Fault.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure that has much factual basis.


Yeah, my understanding the problem was with some larger breakers. And of coarse, just for laughs...


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Even in the panels that were bad it was only the 2 pole breakers that failed to open (trip) under prolonged exposure to gradual load increases. They still tripped under bolted shorts.

I think.

Still the same there has been so many law suits over them here I just tell my customer that they are questionable and recommend they google them and make the decision themselves.

Magnatrips / Zinsco on the other hand I don't touch. Only because as soon as you touch one they fall into a billion tiny little pieces.

Or any other panel in really poor condition for that matter I suppose.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would have no problem adding a small sub and adding new circuits to that. I would even consider adding to it depending on what generation FPE it was.



Where could a person get information on which generation of FPE panels that are safe? I have yet to find any information this.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Fpe*

We don't repair or replace breakers for federal pacific panels. We don't work on mobile homes for the same reason. 

Poor people, poor people sue more !


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Cletis said:


> We don't repair or replace breakers for federal pacific panels. We don't work on mobile homes for the same reason.
> 
> Poor people, poor people sue more !



I haven't worked on FPE panels. We'll typically recommend replacement.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Where could a person get information on which generation of FPE panels that are safe? I have yet to find any information this.


Well you can't find info on any panel company that states they are safe. What you will find, and I will have to search for it another day, is info on testing that was done that determine that certain breakers during the 80's were a problem. There are still tens of thousands of FPE breaker panels out there. Why would a FPE panel from the 60's be an issue if the problems were from breakers in the 80's?


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why would a FPE panel from the 60's be an issue if the problems were from breakers in the 80's?


Besides being 50 years old.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is a link to something similar to what I read but the info I read was an official document from some government agency.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

gold said:


> Besides being 50 years old.


That is a different issue-- that can be said about every brand not FPE. I don't believe that was what this thread was about.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Why would a FPE panel from the 60's be an issue if the problems were from breakers in the 80's?


I understand but, I'm not going to tell a customer they are safe if I don't have proof to back it up. Also, who knows if the panel from the 60's was modified or altered in the 70's or 80's?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is the real deal from the US consumer safety report

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be careful but , IMO there are people making money off of homeowners using unfounded fear tactics. Again not all FPE breakers are an issue.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is the real deal from the US consumer safety report
> 
> Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be careful but , IMO there are people making money off of homeowners using unfounded fear tactics. Again not all FPE breakers are an issue.



Sorry couldn't open your link. I personally don't use fear tactics. Just tell the homeowner a 15 amp single pole replacement breaker is 40-60 dollars


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Sorry couldn't open your link. I personally don't use fear tactics. Just tell the homeowner a 15 amp single pole replacement breaker is 40-60 dollars



The perfect combination - FPE breakers, aluminum NM with Leviton receptacles in a Carlon box. :thumbup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Peter D said:


> The perfect combination - FPE breakers, aluminum NM with Leviton receptacles in a Carlon box. :thumbup:


:thumbsup::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm not so sure about the double poles or larger breakers being the problem. From my personal experience, I have seen first hand on two separate occasions complete failure to trip on single pole 20 amp stab-lok breakers. In one case a dead short tripped the 200 main breaker before it tripped the 20 amp breaker.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> I'm not so sure about the double poles or larger breakers being the problem. From my personal experience, I have seen first hand on two separate occasions complete failure to trip on single pole 20 amp stab-lok breakers. In one case a dead short tripped the 200 main breaker before it tripped the 20 amp breaker.


I have seen the same on other breaker brands as well.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

In the hundreds of FPE panels in the apartments I work on, I see as many failures of other brands. I have bolt on FPE, Stablok, and Zinsco. We also have GE and QO. The last one I replaced in a unit with a burned bus was a QO. Moisture seems to kill panels in damp basements. Window airconditioners seem to cause trouble too. Adding a circuit that needs an arc fault tends to skew the argument somewhat. If you don't need an arc fault and the panel doesn't seem in bad condition do it. I sleep pretty soundly at night. I worry less about a panel full of FPE than the landlord who won't upgrade his fuses and his tenant with a dozen extension cords with three or four window ac's.


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## artisanelec (Aug 6, 2008)

Well, Thanks for all the feedback. I gave the guy an estimate he didnt go for it no big deal I rather be safe then make a few dollars in the long run. 

I know I made the right move. He can get someone else to do the job no big deal.
It was a p i t a kitchen job anyway.

Thanks again guys.


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## travelingelec (May 31, 2011)

If I were a H.O. that had fp panel and breakers that was 20 to 30 years old and they still are working properly. I could assume these aren't the ones that are the bad eggs. RIght?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I wouldn't assume anything. Its a system, what is the overall condition of the homes wiring in general, what type of wiring, etc. If its old knob and tube or maybe bx, than yes I might suggest the panel be replaced due to age as much as anything else. Are renovations in the future? I can't get arc fault circuit breakers for those panels and those are required for renovations. What is the condition of the panel itself? There are more reasons to replace or keep it than just the brand. Finding someone to evaluate the whole thing is a good idea, not selling fear.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

travelingelec said:


> If I were a H.O. that had fp panel and breakers that was 20 to 30 years old and they still are working properly. I could assume these aren't the ones that are the bad eggs. RIght?


in normal condition we never overload any circuit so we cant say they will trip on overlaod if they never had to trip before


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## darenk (Aug 6, 2011)

If its a stab-lok panel we usually really push the panel change. Just be honest and tell them the hazards. Personally I've seen too many you could weld a bead with and they wouldnt trip. Scary.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Personally I think its crazy the consumer commission cant reach the conclusion that these breakers are complete garbage and a serious hazard. Heres a pic of the flawed insides from a web sight if interested:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> I understand but, I'm not going to tell a customer they are safe if I don't have proof to back it up. Also, who knows if the panel from the 60's was modified or altered in the 70's or 80's?




That is a good point. Almost every one has had circuits added over the years. I changed this one saturday. There is an old fuse block inside that is unfused. Then someone added the fp and extra crap later on.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

We have quite a few FPE panels in my area. We've replaced alot of them. IMO they are worth replacing. We don't use scare tactics just give the customer recommendations.


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## darinr (Mar 26, 2012)

Seems the class action lawsuit in New Jersey over FPE only included panels originally sold between June 29, 1971 and July 1, 1980. They extend this timeline through 1991 for panels that have been modified or upgraded.

From the docket issued by the Superior Court in New Jersey:



> ...note that if your panel box or the circuit breakers within the panel box refer to "Federal Pacific Equipment Inc." it is referring to a different company from Federal Pacific Electric Company. If you have Federal Pacific Equipment Inc. circuit breakers they are not included in this claim.


That I find interesting.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Before about 1970, FPE equipment was THE name in OCP. Especially their fused stuff. I have had the pleasure of working on alot of old equipment and the best of it was Bulldog and FPE. Nothing built today can stand up to that stuff.


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## darinr (Mar 26, 2012)

Inspected an FPE this week. overrated breakers for the heat pump, breakers and conductors blasted with paint. Gotta love those quick flips.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> That is a good point. Almost every one has had circuits added over the years. I changed this one saturday. There is an old fuse block inside that is unfused. Then someone added the fp and extra crap later on.


good grief! Is that flex I see going over to the right hand side meter??
...and that pvc/lb/90 job below....tsk tsk tsk. :laughing::no:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Before about 1970, FPE equipment was THE name in OCP. Especially their fused stuff. I have had the pleasure of working on alot of old equipment and the best of it was Bulldog and FPE. Nothing built today can stand up to that stuff.


Yep, a lot of plants still use them, this one is in my shop right now.


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## MrsElectric (Aug 12, 2011)

We have a lot of FPE around us, houses built 50-80's. Some insurance companies threaten to drop HO's insurance if they don't replace them. Easy $ for us!
Recommend replacing them when we see them anyway tho.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Yep, a lot of plants still use them, this one is in my shop right now.


 
Federal Pioneer?

You install the Utility Relay OCP?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Federal Pioneer?
> 
> You install the Utility Relay OCP?


Yep, and a new charging motor, new contacts, new wiring package, new bearings, bunch of other parts, and a complete refirbishment. This was all siezed up when it came in, someone put spray lube in the mech as part of a PM, the lube mixed with the grease and caused a complete failure about 3 weeks later.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

artisanelec said:


> I have a customer that wants to add a few circuits to a FP panel, I told him I would not add any circuits unless he does a panel change.
> UNSAFE FIRE HAZARD
> 
> What do you guys do in this situation ?


Add the circuits and leave after the final.
FPE panels are fine and so are the breakers except for that brief period where they were a problem.

Schnieder is dropping the FPL and FPE stabloc lines in favour of a new breaker type reportedly using the same internals as Square D.
Seems the reputation of FPE is crap in a neighbouring country to our south. The new PFL panels have buss fingers more like Cutler hammer.

Oh and I would never tell a customer anything is SAFE just because that is a time limited answer that expires as soon as I leave.


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## gargoyle (Mar 26, 2012)

the only thing fpe panels are god for is a jb. replace the panel!


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Before about 1970, FPE equipment was THE name in OCP. Especially their fused stuff. I have had the pleasure of working on alot of old equipment and the best of it was Bulldog and FPE. Nothing built today can stand up to that stuff.


My family has been in the electrical trades since 1939, and would not agree with that statement. My Grandfather has always said FPE was absolute junk, and I can verify that their Stab-Lok stuff is, but I also demoed out an FPE 400A distribution panel, and that thing was nothing to write home about compared to the GE stuff in the next building over of the same vintage. I think it was mid-70s vintage. I have to say, the older GE stuff is well built. I have only worked with Bulldog disconnects, and they didn't seem too bad. You are, honestly, the only person I have ever heard comment positively on the quality of FPE equipment. All the other positive stuff I have heard has amounted to nothing more than snarky comments about not having to worry about nuisance tripping with FPE :laughing:


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## gargoyle (Mar 26, 2012)

every fpe panel i have dealt with in the past 20 years has been replaced,mostly because of age. but i have seen older panels ge,bulldog and such that have stood the test of time and continue to be serviceable


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