# No conduit on vinyl siding?



## Sparkman1234

I wired a hot tub in a city in the northern metro area of Minneapolis, and the inspector there said that my 3/4 inch emt looked great, except that I cannot install it on vinyl. Anyone else ever run into this? I asked the ELECTRICAL inspector what I should do. His response: "I don't know, call the BUILDING inspector". Called the building inspector and asked the same question, and he said "I don't know". 
He then told me that vinyl needs 1/2 inch for expansion, so maybe I could drill a 1" hole where my screws enter the house, and silicone caulk around the screw to prevent water from entering. What a joke. I asked what about if I had to run a pipe vertically, and he said that a back to back j-channel is the solution. Looks like I'm going to have to get friendly with a vinyl contractor here.....wtf!


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## flashmn

What code art. did he qoute?


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## electricmanscott

The world has gone mad.


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## Shockdoc

Ask the inspector for an article # because that if it exist is a local code.


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## 480sparky

A bane of our world: Partially educated inspectors.


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## Sparkman1234

flashmn said:


> What code art. did he qoute?


The quote wasn't the electrical code. It was a building code that the electrical inspector was quoting. He compared it to the smoke detectors required in new homes.....


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## captkirk

I would call the state on him...thats just plain outright STUPID..... I would leave it on the house untill he shows you why you cant put it there... 

How do they do services out there....


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## user4818

electricmanscott said:


> The world has gone mad.


And getting worse by the day.


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## wildleg

Peter D said:


> And getting worse by the day.


FYI: there's a guy in another thread that is dying to come and work for you for free.


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## erics37

I'd just make the dork face sign off on my electrical install and then ignore the building inspector.


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## LARMGUY

Sparkman1234 said:


> The quote wasn't the electrical code. It was a building code that the electrical inspector was quoting. He compared it to the smoke detectors required in new homes.....


WTF? Smokes in new homes is like maintaining expansion slots when installing vinyl siding?


The guy's on crack. :blink:


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## Sparkman1234

LARMGUY said:


> WTF? Smokes in new homes is like maintaining expansion slots when installing vinyl siding?
> 
> 
> The guy's on crack. :blink:


I agree. They wouldn't budge on this one either. They're calling themselves "innovative" in that city, and I'm not joking. They have meetings with all of the inspectors and collaborate ideas.....sounds like a good way to prevent pulling permits to me!


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## HARRY304E

Sparkman1234 said:


> I agree. They wouldn't budge on this one either. They're calling themselves "innovative" in that city, and I'm not joking. They have meetings with all of the inspectors and collaborate ideas.....sounds like a good way to prevent pulling permits to me!


It is an approved wiring method ,Is this guy a real Electrician?:blink: What are you supposed to use?:blink:


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## HARRY304E

What is a back to back j-channel?


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## ratrod56

Sparkman1234 said:


> I wired a hot tub in a city in the northern metro area of Minneapolis, and the inspector there said that my 3/4 inch emt looked great, except that I cannot install it on vinyl. Anyone else ever run into this? I asked the ELECTRICAL inspector what I should do. His response: "I don't know, call the BUILDING inspector". Called the building inspector and asked the same question, and he said "I don't know".
> He then told me that vinyl needs 1/2 inch for expansion, so maybe I could drill a 1" hole where my screws enter the house, and silicone caulk around the screw to prevent water from entering. What a joke. I asked what about if I had to run a pipe vertically, and he said that a back to back j-channel is the solution. Looks like I'm going to have to get friendly with a vinyl contractor here.....wtf!


 
The bad thing about this story is the customer and the contractor are tring to do the right thing by pulling permit and calling for inspection. The inspector isnt providing a service that is needed. All he is doing is being a . Hopefully customers will continue to hire contractors to do the job right, pulling permits instead of being discouraged and sidestepping the system by using some guy on unemployment with no license or insurance


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## Shockdoc

Al Queada has finally succeeded, biological Stupid has now reached even the lowest of government employees.


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## McClary’s Electrical

I doubt that's a real rule, and I would make him prove it. 
If he was able to prove it by showing their written documented amendment, I then would remove the EMT and fish a piece of UF right behind the vinyl. That would piss him off.


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## hardworkingstiff

I guess I'm the only one that is thinking the inspector (building code) may be on to something? I've installed vinyl siding and the #1 rule is DON'T SECURE THE VINYL SIDING SOLIDLY. When you install your fasteners you are effectively securing the vinyl every 10' thereby removing it's ability to expand and contract (as required in the installation instructions).

Personally, although it's not an electrical code violation, it shows a lack of understanding of good installation practices for vinyl siding, and IMO the inspector is protecting the homeowner from an electrician that either didn't know or didn't care about the proper way to not secure vinyl siding.


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## 10492

hardworkingstiff said:


> I guess I'm the only one that is thinking the inspector (building code) may be on to something? I've installed vinyl siding and the #1 rule is DON'T SECURE THE VINYL SIDING SOLIDLY. When you install your fasteners you are effectively securing the vinyl every 10' thereby removing it's ability to expand and contract.


One would think that shutters wouldn't be allowed then.

Neither would disconnects mounted on it, meter cans, SE cable...


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## hardworkingstiff

Dnkldorf said:


> One would think that shutters wouldn't be allowed then.
> 
> Neither would disconnects mounted on it, meter cans, SE cable...


Good point. I bet shutters don't get inspected, and they don't secure the vinyl for any significant distance, so probably no one really thinks about it.

As far as SE cable, the majority of that run is in the vertical so you only have one screw and expansion/contraction can still happen on each side of the screw.

But, either way, both the shutters and SE cable should have holes in the vinyl that are larger than screw that will allow for expansion and contraction. 

This is something that we have never been properly instructed on and therefore we think it's BS. 

Sort of like using a definite purpose contactor in a box for controlling a load that is not part of a listed assembly. It's a no-no, but a lot of us have done it and still do it.


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## Amish Electrician

It IS an interesting problem. I mean, if we were mounting our stuff to a tile wall, we'd want to find a way to make holes without trashing the wall, wouldn't we? 

Same principle here ... we don't want our methods to cause the siding to fail.

Looks to me as if we need to adjust our methods. Perhaps use a rotozip or Dremel (tiny router) to make a slot where our screws pass through the vinyl - then cover the slot with a fender washer? Would we also want to use a nut to 'stand off' from the wall a bit, so we don't pinch the siding?


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## 10492

Amish Electrician said:


> Same principle here ... we don't want our methods to cause the siding to fail.



Really? The siding will fail?

Where's the face palm image?


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## Celtic

mcclary's electrical said:


> ... fish a piece of UF right behind the vinyl. That would piss him off.


...and impress the hell out of the customer too.:no:


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## JDJ

wildleg said:


> FYI: there's a guy in another thread that is dying to come and work for you for free.



You enjoy chaos don't you Wildleg?:whistling2:


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## macmikeman

Hey ....don't tell anyone I told you this but it's the illuminati black ops controlling the weather.


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## Sparkman1234

HARRY304E said:


> What is a back to back j-channel?


j-channel is the stuff that is next to your windows and doors where the vinyl attaches. it leaves a gap for the vinyl to contract and expand in. Basically, what it amounts to is you have to hire a vinyl siding contractor in order to run pipe on a vinyl house.


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## SHADOW

I would just change the EMT for PVC pipe with a expention coupling.(Not sure of the term).


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## Celtic

SHADOW said:


> I would just change the EMT for PVC pipe with a expansion fitting.(fixed it for you).


...which does nothing to alleviate the effect of the nails/screws that hold the strap down.


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## hardworkingstiff

SHADOW said:


> I would just change the EMT for PVC pipe with a expention coupling.(Not sure of the term).


You would still have the issue the inspector in the OP is complaining about. His issue is the need to allow the vinyl siding to expand and contract, and mounting the screws in the horizontal plane effectively stops the siding from having the ability to expand and contract (that one piece that has the conduit strapping screws installed through it).


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## Big John

Dnkldorf said:


> Really? The siding will fail?
> 
> Where's the face palm image?


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## 10492

^^^

:laughing:


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## SHADOW

My mistake,
Does the EMT will fit in the caost beind the vinyle?
You could just pup out the clippinp and past the EMT behind it.
If the EMT is to big,could you past a NMWU behind the vinyle?


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## electricmanscott

Some of the stuff I'm reading here is embarrassing.


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## B4T

I never heard of vinyl siding failure because of the electrician mounting his service and the siding was not able to more.. :blink::blink:

What is more important here.. the service falling off the side of the house or the vinyl siding able to "move"..

What about all the vinyl siding installed with nail guns that have a tad too much pressure..

Just another dumb idea someone came up with where there is no easy solution without causing more problems..


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## Magnettica

This kind of crap makes the good inspectors look bad because they get lumped into the "too stupid to succeed in the private sector" opinion of guys like me!


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## captkirk

hardworkingstiff said:


> I guess I'm the only one that is thinking the inspector (building code) may be on to something? I've installed vinyl siding and the #1 rule is DON'T SECURE THE VINYL SIDING SOLIDLY. When you install your fasteners you are effectively securing the vinyl every 10' thereby removing it's ability to expand and contract (as required in the installation instructions).
> 
> Personally, although it's not an electrical code violation, it shows a lack of understanding of good installation practices for vinyl siding, and IMO the inspector is protecting the homeowner from an electrician that either didn't know or didn't care about the proper way to not secure vinyl siding.


 Sooooo whats your solution..? 

Really bob... ? a thanks...? come on dude.....


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## BBQ

captkirk said:


> Really bob... ? a thanks...? come on dude.....


Really. There was nothing he said that was not true.

I am not sure there is a great solution, I agree it is not an NEC violation but I bet if you dig deep enough you could find a building code violation.

As he explained the instructions for hanging vinyl siding is to leave it loose, that is why the nail holes for hanging it are slots.

Vertical runs would not be an issue, horizontal runs could cause the siding to buckle from expansion and contraction.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> What is more important here.. the service falling off the side of the house or the vinyl siding able to "move"


But that is not the only two options.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> But that is not the only two options.


Our equipment has to be securely mounted in place.. are we suppose to build a raised platform for the service.. :blink:

I have seen plenty of siding jobs where it is rippled when the sun hits it and there is nothing restricting movement..

Just poor installation.. but nobody is going to fix it since there is not a safety hazard.. just looks _really_ bad..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Our equipment has to be securely mounted in place.. are we suppose to build a raised platform for the service.. :blink:


If that is what it takes why not? Of course you would have to adjust your price for the extra work.

Wish I had a picture of the only 400 amp service I installed on a home. Vinyl siding and yes at my request the carpenters provided a raised area for me to mount the meter and conduit.



> I have seen plenty of siding jobs where it is rippled when the sun hits it and there is nothing restricting movement..


It rippled because the nails were two tight or the installer ignored the directions.



> Just poor installation.. but nobody is going to fix it since there is not a safety hazard.. just looks _really_ bad..


I agree.

And to be clear I am unlikely to worry about this issue in the least, if I had to run a conduit I would.


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## hardworkingstiff

BBQ said:


> And to be clear I am unlikely to worry about this issue in the least, if I had to run a conduit I would.


I'm in this camp too. 

I agree that it's not a safety issue and I don't have an easy solution to the OP's problem. The worst that will happen will be the siding warping/buckling when it tries to expand (just that one sheet where the conduit is installed horizontally) or it will possibly cause a rip over time (where the screws are) from the contacting forces.

All I'm saying is the building officials are correct in saying the way the OP installed the conduit does not allow for the vinyl siding to expand/contract. Whether or not they should be enforcing this issue I'm not sure of. 

I do know that if my siding had long term damage due to an electrical installation I'd be disappointed and would not use that contractor again and I would tell everyone that would listen what a crappy job the electrician did.

Just sayin


Edit: Think about this, we are all the time talking the talk about how we do it better than the hacks. Paying attention to this type of detail will get you a rep that will win jobs at higher prices than your competition and make customers willing to wait for you to be available for their work. There is no down side to trying to deal with this at the time of installation.


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## Amish Electrician

Slight tangent here, but ....
My current house, and the previous rental, had ACB siding ( that's 'asbestos cement board shingles'). You can say quite a bit about the stuff, but one thing is clear: it's brittle. The stuff survives time well (1940 and 1957 houses), but one crack and it falls out. It can be a challenge finding replacement tiles, too.

At both houses - several states and time zones apart - the cable guys were quite careless and cavalier about banging their nails into the tiles. Now, this stuff is quite common, so maybe you can forgive my innocence in expecting them to come with the proper tools and fasteners.

Sure, bang in that little nail - and 15 minutes later you have a crack; by the next day yhere's a chunk of tile laying on the ground. 

Let me put it out quite plainly: Homeowners get real mad when this crap happens- especially when they made a point of cautioning the tradesman.

In my instance, I wasn't overly excited, as I already had plans in place to replace the siding. 

So - back on topic - If my vinyl siding buckled and cracked a year after the electrician filled it with nails, I'd be pretty mad. At that point, a proper repair would be difficult - might even require residing the house, as the replacement pieces would be a different color.

Would the homeowner be able to collect? Probably not .... but you can be sure you'd waste some time on it, waste some of your lawyers' time, and the customer would make sure the whole town heard what a skunk you were.

Nixon may nave said 'there' no such thing as bad publicity,' but he wasn't a contractor.


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## cortez

Most homeowners have scrap left from the vinyl job and any dis-formation (from an overheated BBQ or whatever) is easily repaired. 

Vinyl is far from "Black matter" science. Double J channels are just two J channels formed to make a "raceway" of sorts. :thumbup:


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## 10492

I doubt anyone is going to notice a little warp in the siding from the screws of a one hole strap.(if it really happens enough to care about)

All they are going to notice is that ugly conduit strapped on their house.


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## hardworkingstiff

*more thoughts*

OK, thinking about this some more, since you ran EMT and I'm assuming you went to the 10' distance between straps, and most siding is in approximately 10' lengths, you may just have one screw in each section of siding. If that is the case, then you can tell the building official that the siding can still expand/contract on each side of the screw so their concerns are unfounded based on the way you installed it.


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## Sparkman1234

Here's what I ended up doing:
I cut a hole in the siding 1" round with a hole saw. Then I re-installed the toggle bolts that I had installed with a spacer (1/2" emt) to make sure that I didn't pull the siding too tight so it couldn't move again. Then I caulked in around said spacer and covered the works with a 1-1/4" fender washer. I feel that this is a more than reasonable job that'll allow the siding to be able to contract and expand. Also, the city "building official" told me that this route will be ok. Next time, I will just run the damn pipe down low in the rocks so I can secure it to the concrete block on the house!


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## Chris1971

Sparkman1234 said:


> Here's what I ended up doing:
> I cut a hole in the siding 1" round with a hole saw. Then I re-installed the toggle bolts that I had installed with a spacer (1/2" emt) to make sure that I didn't pull the siding too tight so it couldn't move again. Then I caulked in around said spacer and covered the works with a 1-1/4" fender washer. I feel that this is a more than reasonable job that'll allow the siding to be able to contract and expand. Also, the city "building official" told me that this route will be ok. Next time, I will just run the damn pipe down low in the rocks so I can secure it to the concrete block on the house!


I will be doing a job in this city next week Friday. I also will be running some exterior conduit for a mini split unit. I can't believe how anal the building inspectors are in that city.:no:


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## carryyourbooks

here's a solution that i wouldn't try, but you can. remove all straps and use spring nuts. glue the spring nuts to the vinyl siding with some good old gorilla glue. ty wrap the conduit to the spring nuts. put a piece of flexible conduit in every little bit. there ya go. all is flexible.


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## carryyourbooks

hardworkingstiff said:


> I agree that it's not a safety issue and I don't have an easy solution to the OP's problem. The worst that will happen will be the siding warping/buckling when it tries to expand (just that one sheet where the conduit is installed horizontally) or it will possibly cause a rip over time (where the screws are) from the contacting forces.
> 
> I do know that if my siding had long term damage due to an electrical installation I'd be disappointed and would not use that contractor again and I would tell everyone that would listen what a crappy job the electrician did.
> 
> Just sayin
> 
> 
> Edit: Think about this, we are all the time talking the talk about how we do it better than the hacks. Paying attention to this type of detail will get you a rep that will win jobs at higher prices than your competition and make customers willing to wait for you to be available for their work. There is no down side to trying to deal with this at the time of installation.





Amish Electrician said:


> So - back on topic - If my vinyl siding buckled and cracked a year after the electrician filled it with nails, I'd be pretty mad. At that point, a proper repair would be difficult - might even require residing the house, as the replacement pieces would be a different color.
> 
> Would the homeowner be able to collect? Probably not ....


 
warranty is only 1 yr. too bad, too sad.:whistling2:


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## k_buz

I have never heard of this, but the way I would have handled it would be to run the EMT below the siding on the foundation. When I had to 90 up for the disco, I would make that less than 36" so my first strap was on the block/concrete, then I would inform the customer that he/she would need to get a siding guy out there to cut in a siding block for me to mount the disco to.


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