# Wire lacing technique



## Wiresmith

Clove hitches the run of the lace

I use a small roll of twine and pass the role through the loops rather than guestimating length and cutting, but it's cheap you can guesstimate when you get used to knowing how much extra it will take, some scenarios ask for it.

You will never look at cable ties the same way, I look at them and put them in the same category as those factory boxoffset things, factory elbows and people that use unions everywhere.

I think it is beautiful, you couldn't create a sharp edge if you tried, I have seen cable ties cut through wires and shut down a plant(panduit makes better cable ties with rounded edges). And I think it takes less time sometimes after you get the hang of it. I like to run the parallel line on the backside so you don't see it. And you don't need ten different size ties, just one type of twine. A little bit larger string/rope but it works for big wire as well, look up truckers hitch if you get into that.


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## jelhill

Wiresmith said:


> Clove hitches the run of the lace
> 
> *I use a small roll of twine* and pass the role through the loops rather than guestimating length and cutting, but it's cheap you can guesstimate when you get used to knowing how much extra it will take, some scenarios ask for it.
> 
> You will never look at cable ties the same way, I look at them and put them in the same category as those factory boxoffset things, factory elbows and people that use unions everywhere.
> 
> I think it is beautiful, you couldn't create a sharp edge if you tried, I have seen cable ties cut through wires and shut down a plant(panduit makes better cable ties with rounded edges). And I think it takes less time sometimes after you get the hang of it. I like to run the parallel line on the backside so you don't see it. And you don't need ten different size ties, just one type of twine. A little bit larger string/rope but it works for big wire as well, look up truckers hitch if you get into that.


If you can find it... I always liked the WAXED nylon twine.... super strong... stays in place better and not bunch up. I certainly agree with @Wiresmith about the beautiful part... like conduit bends that match perfectly.


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## splatz

I like learning about old methods too and occasionally find modern uses for them. 

There's actually tons of info available by Google. The two places I know of that were really big on cable lacing are NASA and the telcos. So if you google "cable lacing telco" or "cable lacing NASA" you'll find lots. 

I have never seen NASA work, but some of the old work still in use in telco CO's is really impressive. There was work way more impressive than what you see in "cable ****" threads on reddit etc. these days, in telco offices 50+ years ago. 

Waxed string was used for cable lacing, the wax gives the string a little tackiness and makes it work better. I think you can still find it if you look. Of course you wouldn't use it inside enclosure with line voltage terminals or connections, it's combustible material - pretty much a fuse. Like cable ties, but more so, if you over tighten it, it could mess up cat 5 / cat6 cables. 

I have used it here and there over the years, it still works fine, not much different from making a cable tie bundle, except it's smoother - you don't have the burrs from the cable tie heads on the finished bundle.


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## Wiresmith

jelhill said:


> If you can find it... I always liked the WAXED nylon twine.... super strong... stays in place better and not bunch up. I certainly agree with @Wiresmith about the beautiful part... like conduit bends that match perfectly.


Thanks, looking for it now. I never heard of it although I have had some bootlaces like that and I see how it would be better.


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## CoolWill

I've cut a chit ton of it out and tossed it on the floor. It looks nice, but it is just pointless in the cut throat market of today.


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## splatz

CoolWill said:


> I've cut a chit ton of it out and tossed it on the floor. It looks nice, but it is just pointless in the cut throat market of today.


What did you cut it out of?


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## CoolWill

splatz said:


> What did you cut it out of?


I worked at a mill that had a ton of old machines. They never upgraded, just kept repairing. A lot of control cabinets had the wires laced. By the time I got there, there was a good mix of old lace and new hack.


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## splatz

CoolWill said:


> I worked at a mill that had a ton of old machines. They never upgraded, just kept repairing. A lot of control cabinets had the wires laced. By the time I got there, there was a good mix of old lace and new hack.


I see it in some old alarm systems around here, I wonder if there was one company doing all the old work. Some pretty impressive work. Some of these systems still have old window foil glass break alarms, where the foil survives, it still looks nice. I thought that foil was decorative until I learned it was part of the alarm system.


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## splatz

This company is usually a decent source for telco stuff: 


https://www.specialized.net/install.../cable-installation/lacing-needles-twine.html


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## drsparky

Cable lacing is a art that can not be taught a few lines on a forum. It is still done and a quick check with google there are many pages devoted to it. 
The old school cable twine can be hazardous to work with. some were impregnated with rat poison to keep mice from chewing on it. Tugging on you could push it into the folds of your skin. 
Lacing twine has been replaced with lacing tape in most modern installs, it has a flat surface and does not dig into wire jackets as much. 
Learn it practice it and will have a marketable skill.
Needles are even available from Amazon.


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## Wiresmith

I left out, you can use those bigger black screw on cable tie mounts as cleats for the twine, or if you don't pass the roll through the loops like me you could pass the twine through the holes for the cable tie. You can get very fast and efficient at it and not take more time than cable ties, just like anything else, just because there is a shortcut used by the incompetent doesn't mean the competent can't get good enough to be efficient.


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## jelhill

https://www.amazon.com/waxed-nylon-thread/s?k=waxed+nylon+thread


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## CoolWill

Wiresmith said:


> I left out, you can use those bigger black screw on cable tie mounts as cleats for the twine, or if you don't pass the roll through the loops like me you could pass the twine through the holes for the cable tie. You can get very fast and efficient at it and not take more time than cable ties, just like anything else, just because there is a shortcut used by the incompetent doesn't mean the competent can't get good enough to be efficient.


Yes, because using zip ties is a sign of incompetence.


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## Wiresmith

The pic @splatz posted I think uses half hitches the length of the run except at the ends. I recommend clove hitches because if you move the wires around the halves will move one direction and the twine gets loose, cloves won't do that.

And if you want to bundle a lot or big wires, truckers hitches Will let you cinch down like a cable tie. I actually use ropes and trucker hitches instead of ratchet straps, I'm a knot and rope lover, it drives people crazy.


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## Wiresmith

CoolWill said:


> Yes, because using zip ties is a sign of incompetence.


I knew we could agree on SOMETHING


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## TGGT

I've had to lace cable once. I felt like it was a total waste of time considering the man hours.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Charlie K

The issue with ty-raps is they will leave a sharp edge if not installed correctly and they will get hard and brittle over time. Lacing is an art using #7 waxed polyester. The tool to get under the stitching for a new row is called an Evans Needle. They are made by P.K Neuss Co. Yes you can make better time with cable tys but when the customer specs lacing they want lacing.


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## MechanicalDVR

I have never done it or tried it myself but I sure can appreciate a good looking neat job of it.


Closest I've come is wire ties.


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## Wirenuting

Clove hitch to start and at every intersecting point were a wire drops out. Use 1/2 hitches for the run.


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## Wiresmith

Wirenuting said:


> Clove hitch to start and at every intersecting point were a wire drops out. Use 1/2 hitches for the run.


Using halves does make it easier to put a new wire in the bundle as well, sometimes you have to straighten up the lace when you move the bundle around though. Although I haven't used waxed so that might help.


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## Wirenuting

Wiresmith said:


> Using halves does make it easier to put a new wire in the bundle as well, sometimes you have to straighten up the lace when you move the bundle around though. Although I haven't used waxed so that might help.


You need to keep tension on the 1/2 hitch's and the waxed string works great. 
Natural fiber string that's waxed is best. Like someone else mentioned it's loom not a hardware store string.


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## Wardenclyffe

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/cata...u9XmtlO4qwY7WGlOAEvdVzk51-VTvfmRoCKIgQAvD_BwE


Guess it's still used ,...

This product conforms to the requirements of A-A-52081-C-3 MIL-T-43435B; Type II, Size 3, Finish C.


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## MTW

When I worked at the machine tool builder, I heard stories about an old school guy that worked there that could still lace everything and have it look perfect without needing panduit.


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## scotch

Telco required you to lace all the DC cables on the runways down to the equipment ...waxed string and they supplied the fingerless gloves too.


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## Navyguy

Wirenuting said:


> You need to keep tension on the 1/2 hitch's and the waxed string works great.
> Natural fiber string that's waxed is best. Like someone else mentioned it's loom not a hardware store string.


The knot you are actually looking for is called a marling hitch. To the untrained, it looks the same as a half hitch, but actually the tuck is done in such a way that it binds and holds taught.

The twine that I have used (not for electrical work) is impregnated with bees wax. I am sure you can get the same results with candle wax or some other form of material.

Larger materials we use "tarred marlin", which is more of a petroleum based material that resisted salt water and quite rugged.

Cheers
John


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## drsparky

Just remember, no beer stitches.


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## Wiresmith

Navyguy said:


> The knot you are actually looking for is called a marling hitch. To the untrained, it looks the same as a half hitch, but actually the tuck is done in such a way that it binds and holds taught.
> 
> The twine that I have used (not for electrical work) is impregnated with bees wax. I am sure you can get the same results with candle wax or some other form of material.
> 
> Larger materials we use "tarred marlin", which is more of a petroleum based material that resisted salt water and quite rugged.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I think that's what's in @splatz pic as well not a half hitch

Thank you very much, just busted out the twine and it stays put better

Still use clove hitch to terminate the twine ends?


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## Wirenuting

Navyguy said:


> The knot you are actually looking for is called a marling hitch. To the untrained, it looks the same as a half hitch, but actually the tuck is done in such a way that it binds and holds taught.
> 
> The twine that I have used (not for electrical work) is impregnated with bees wax. I am sure you can get the same results with candle wax or some other form of material.
> 
> Larger materials we use "tarred marlin", which is more of a petroleum based material that resisted salt water and quite rugged.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Ok thanks John.

So it’s a Marlinspike hitch to start, end and used at all intersecting points and overhand for the runs. 
Correct?


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## varmit

This waxed thread will work. Available at paragear.com. Parachute riggers use this to tack harnesses before final sewing. It is flat and somewhat sticky.



SUPER TACK CORD - MIL-T-43435 TYPE 1 SIZE 2

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SUPER TACK CORD -



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MIL-T-43435, Type 1, Size 2, Finish "B". Color: Black.

Shipping Weight: 10 oz. (285g)

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## Navyguy

Wiresmith said:


> I think that's what's in @splatz pic as well not a half hitch
> 
> Thank you very much, just busted out the twine and it stays put better
> 
> Still use clove hitch to terminate the twine ends?


I think there could be any number of knots that could be used to secure the ends such as a clove hitch or a rolling hitch.

Many of the same knots have different names based on their use; but the classics like clove and rolling hitch are the to everybody.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy

Wirenuting said:


> Ok thanks John.
> 
> So it’s a Marlinspike hitch to start, end and used at all intersecting points and overhand for the runs.
> Correct?


I think you could use a Marlingspike Hitch to start, but a simple clove hitch is just as good to; the marling spike hitch has a specific purpose and this is not it. In the marling hitch (not the marlingspike hitch) it is like "overhand knots", but the need to be bound the same way or the there could be slack in the middle (in the original purpose of bundling of sails).

Many of the same knots have different names depending on their use. Ashley is the leading authority of knots for a hundred years!

Cheers
John


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## mburtis

Ive been doing a lot of google searches and even went through the NASA workmanship manual, a navy gas turbine manual, and an airplane manual. They all are suspiciously similar, pretty sure they use the same picture. They all say to start with a clove hitch locked with a overhand knot with an extra turn followed by marling hitches. All the pictures show something that doesn't quite look like a standard clove hitch but its all the same really bad picture. I ordered some waxed nylon tape the other night so ill start playing with it. 

Now from my searching I have discovered there are two things commonly called cable lacing. The first being tying up wiring harnesses in control cabinets or in vehicles or airplanes. The second being tying com lines onto ladder racks. Its the first one that I'm interested in mostly. 

I hadn't really thought about the consumable material aspect of it. I'm a brand new apprentice and am just starting to learn the code(did quite a bit of control system specification work as an engineer but never had to deal with the code). Ill have to look into the code book on that tomorrow as far as where it would be allowed and where not. I'm sure it was used on 120VAC control cabinets and even higher voltage stuff in the past but that might be frowned on now days? 

Good to see this much interest in old school techniques.


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## Wirenuting

Navyguy said:


> I think you could use a Marlingspike Hitch to start, but a simple clove hitch is just as good to; the marling spike hitch has a specific purpose and this is not it. In the marling hitch (not the marlingspike hitch) it is like "overhand knots", but the need to be bound the same way or the there could be slack in the middle (in the original purpose of bundling of sails).
> 
> Many of the same knots have different names depending on their use. Ashley is the leading authority of knots for a hundred years!
> 
> Cheers
> John


Ya, I even looked thru a 3-D knot app and it looks like a clove is the first one. 
The knots do go by many different names for the same thing. 
The Marlin is good for lifting or ladders.


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## Navyguy

mburtis said:


> They all say to start with a clove hitch locked with a overhand knot with an extra turn followed by marling hitches. All the pictures show something that doesn't quite look like a standard clove hitch but its all the same really bad picture.


I have not studied this, so I cannot confirm, but it sounds like you are doing a rolling hitch; a clove hitch with an additional turn in it. To tie off the clove hitch (rolling hitch) with an overhand knot is not something I would not normally see; the overhand knot has very limited uses in ropework so if anything I might expect to see a Reef Knot (square knot it is often called).

The purpose of any knot is that when it is tied and stressed the knot still can be untied easily; the overhand knot itself does not lend itself to that approach and that is why it is not usually a "stand alone" knot.

Cheers
John


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## CoolWill

MTW said:


> When I worked at the machine tool builder, I heard stories about an old school guy that worked there that could still lace everything and have it look perfect without needing panduit.


Yeah, but then someone invented Panduit, which is 100 times faster and easier to modify, and he was laid off and died in the foodstamp line.


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## Navyguy

drsparky said:


> Just remember, no beer stitches.


I tend to get dark rum stitches... well not so much any more!

Cheers
John


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## splatz

Look at this - I think (A) is the marline hitch (marlinspike hitch, you'd use it to wrap a cord around a spike so you can pull it tight without cutting your hand), (B) is the overhand knot, and (C) I don't know of any name for. 

Edit - nah, marlinspike hitch is something different. I don't know what A is either.


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## B-Nabs

splatz said:


> Look at this - I think (A) is the marline hitch (marlinspike hitch, you'd use it to wrap a cord around a spike so you can pull it tight without cutting your hand), (B) is the overhand knot, and (C) I don't know of any name for.


I think A is a half hitch, B is a marline hitch, and C may be an overhand knot. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## splatz

B-Nabs said:


> I think A is a half hitch, B is a marline hitch, and C may be an overhand knot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


AFAIK a half hitch and an overhand knot are the same thing. 

Wrap a piece of wire around a pencil and take out the pencil, you'll see B is an overhand knot.


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## MTW

CoolWill said:


> Yeah, but then someone invented Panduit, which is 100 times faster and easier to modify, and he was laid off and died in the foodstamp line.


That's not far from the truth actually.


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## mburtis

I can't post pictures or links yet, but there is an animation on flight mechanic .com that shows the knots for the lacing. Now this appears to be a recreated newer version of the same illistration from all the old manuals. All the old manuals call it a clove hitch with an extra turn, it doesn't look like a rolling hitch though and it doesn't quite look right for a normal clove hitch either.


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## brian john




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## B-Nabs

splatz said:


> AFAIK a half hitch and an overhand knot are the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrap a piece of wire around a pencil and take out the pencil, you'll see B is an overhand knot.


A half hitch is not the same as an overhand knot. A half hitch comes undone if the "pencil" is removed. Knot A in the picture is a half hitch. Knot B is a marline hitch (which becomes an overhand knot if the "pencil" is removed, you're right about that). I don't know what C is called, but it becomes a figure 8 knot if the "pencil" is removed. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Wiresmith

splatz said:


> Look at this - I think (A) is the marline hitch (marlinspike hitch, you'd use it to wrap a cord around a spike so you can pull it tight without cutting your hand), (B) is the overhand knot, and (C) I don't know of any name for.
> 
> Edit - nah, marlinspike hitch is something different. I don't know what A is either.


A is a half hitch
B is marling/marline hitch NOT a marline spike hitch
C is cable lacing hitch(i just made the name up i cant find a real name, it's just a marling hitch through a underhand loop)i did see something called a telepone hitch which looked similar but used double line


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## Navyguy

I am not sure what "C" is either. I see in the write up they say it is "more secure". I question that because if that turn was to be flipped over, the lacing would become a loose overhand knot... that is why I think the Marling Hitch would be better.

I am not sure why anyone would be lacing cable in a modern network environment as per that video. Maybe some specification said that Velcro or cable ties are not suitable for diagonal application so they had to lace them up...

Cheers
John


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## Wiresmith

Navyguy said:


> I am not sure what "C" is either. I see in the write up they say it is "more secure". I question that because if that turn was to be flipped over, the lacing would become a loose overhand knot... that is why I think the Marling Hitch would be better.
> 
> I am not sure why anyone would be lacing cable in a modern network environment as per that video. Maybe some specification said that Velcro or cable ties are not suitable for diagonal application so they had to lace them up...
> 
> Cheers
> John


you can actually get very quick with it. you dont have to reach down for cable ties, you dont have to carry and restock cable ties in your pocket, you only cut once. And also, no sharp edges, one size fits all, re-adjustable, material costs less especially if you normally buy quality cable ties. And i think they make some cool velcro straps i have never used that you may be able to get tight, but velcro tape doesn't get tight.


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## JRaef

OMG... just... shoot... me.......


When I started out in the 70's at a steel mill, that was what I was taught. When I was given my first piece of Panduit, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I would NEVER go back.


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## QMED

I was taught the single tie method at the widget factory. Clove hitch with either a surgeon knot or square knot. In high vibe areas you run one pass of the clove hitch under one wire in the bundle and finish with a surgeon or square knot.


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## Southeast Power

Worked on old airplanes in another life.
In A school we started with a clove hitch and the what hey called a half hitch which I just found out today was really a Marline Hitch. Nice to learn something.


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