# Southwire meter mishap



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

He was measuring 995 volts. Now I don't know about you, but at that voltage I wouldn't want to use anything other than a fluke, while wearing arc flash gear (min. Gloves, face shield and shirt).

That meter is rated cat 4 600 volts and cat 3 1000 volts...

Nuff said.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> He was measuring 995 volts. Now I don't know about you, but at that voltage I wouldn't want to use anything other than a fluke, while wearing arc flash gear (min. Gloves, face shield and shirt).
> 
> That meter is rated cat 4 600 volts and cat 3 1000 volts...
> 
> ...



Can't say I disagree with you about the Fluke. The thing here is that this meter is rated for 1kV at Cat IV and should be able to handle that voltage. Here is a link to the model:

http://www.southwiretools.com/tools/tools/11060S

That is a non-starter though. The post is about Southwire's incorrect statement that voltage should be measured phase-to-ground and not phase-to-phase. Either it is incorrect, or I am incorrect.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> He was measuring 995 volts. Now I don't know about you, but at that voltage I wouldn't want to use anything other than a fluke, ...That meter is rated cat 4 600 volts and cat 3 1000 volts


A meter rated CAT III 1000V is supposed to be OK at a 995V receptacle. The problem is, Southwire meters are garbage, Southwire is not a meter company. 

There's just no wiggle room for cheap meters, I won't use them.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

sparkiez said:


> Can't say I disagree with you about the Fluke. The thing here is that this meter is rated for 1kV at Cat IV and should be able to handle that voltage. Here is a link to the model:
> 
> http://www.southwiretools.com/tools/tools/11060S
> 
> That is a non-starter though. The post is about Southwire's incorrect statement that voltage should be measured phase-to-ground and not phase-to-phase. Either it is incorrect, or I am incorrect.


1000 volts is only Cat III.

Either way it's a garbage meter.

I do agree that stating just don't use it as you normally would in the field is a hack way to prevent re calling all the meters.









Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

splatz said:


> A meter rated CAT III 1000V is supposed to be OK at a 995V receptacle. The problem is, Southwire meters are garbage, Southwire is not a meter company.
> 
> 
> 
> There's just no wiggle room for cheap meters, I won't use them.


I'm wondering if there may have been condensation on the circuit board inside the meter. I've only ever heard of this being an issue, and never seen it myself (and hope I never will).

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sparkiez said:


> That is a non-starter though. The post is about Southwire's incorrect statement that voltage should be measured phase-to-ground and not phase-to-phase. Either it is incorrect, or I am incorrect.


TOTAL fiction. Ridiculous to the point that anyone that could say that, may not be qualified to USE a meter, but certainly isn't qualified to MAKE meters. 

Now that I think of it, I like Southwire WIRE less knowing that it's a company that will try and weasel out of liability with this kind of BS.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

I always mix those damn numbers up. Didn't they change the category numbers not too many years ago? I seem to remember learning the Cat numbers, then having them switched around by OSHA. Perhaps that was for arc hazard.

I should also add that I never do any work above 600V. I tend to be pretty clumsy, so I try my best to avoid it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I find it hard to believe that someone could bring in or allowed to bring in a meter like that to a mine or industrial site. 
I can't imagine what could have been a problem. It could have been the leads or the receptacle could have had some kind of termination problem that shorted out when the maintenance guy started troubleshooting it. 
no matter.
The conversation is the practice of testing phase to ground or neutral. I believe that to be a novice or amateur practice unless you are performing some part of the equipotential test no one has heard of.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

From a safety stand point phase to ground is more important than phase to phase readings. From a electrical stand point phase to phase is more important.

This is why arc flash teaches you the 9 step test on disconnects. 

There's no way to prove that the guy didn't do a phase to ground test then do the phase to phase test with a meter that was rated to handle the test.

On single phase 480v lighting its common to find a low phase to phase reading of less than 50v when you drop one phase. Both wires are still 277v to ground. 

As for southwire telling you to *only* take the phase to ground reading that's bull and they need to recall the meter if it can not do whats its rated to do


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

beyond 480V.....you should only use a properly rated non contact tester or rated phasing sticks.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Why would anybody buy a Southwire meter? Seriously, that’s just dumb.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Don’t confuse a meters rated voltage reading with its Cat rating. 
They are two different animals.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Not withstanding the conversation regarding the quality or branding of meters, you should always test “Phase to Ground”, but that is not the only one test.

A to B, A to C, and B to C
A to N, B to N, and C to N
A to G, B to G, and C to G

And in a fused application you need to add “across” each fuse, or perhaps line to load.

Most common error in testing I have seen guys make is not testing Phase to Ground; in situations where there is a blown fuse as an example, they will test Phase to Phase and get zero volts, but if they had tested phase to ground they would have got a reading of XX volts.

I actually see this in resi more then commercial or industrial; classic is the split receptacle with a non-broken tab and a fuse panel. One of the two plug fuses blow because the homeowner did not break the tab and it backfeed to the other plug fuse. Of course the one plug fuse blows instantly. If you measure Phase to Phase only, you will get zero volts, but if you do Phase to Ground or Neutral you will get your 120 volts.

Cheers
John


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Tonedeaf said:


> beyond 480V.....you should only use a properly rated non contact tester or rated phasing sticks.


Maybe in your opinion. We have 347/600 up here in Canada.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Maybe in your opinion. We have 347/600 up here in Canada.
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


480V-600V nominal....

you get near 1000V its not safe to use a regular meter fluke or not......all you need is some worn leads and you are in a burn center for 6 months if you are lucky


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

sparkiez said:


> Can't say I disagree with you about the Fluke. The thing here is that this meter is rated for 1kV at Cat IV and should be able to handle that voltage. Here is a link to the model:
> 
> http://www.southwiretools.com/tools/tools/11060S
> 
> That is a non-starter though. The post is about Southwire's incorrect statement that voltage should be measured phase-to-ground and not phase-to-phase. Either it is incorrect, or I am incorrect.


Did Southwire make that statement? It looks like MSHA letterhead.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> Did Southwire make that statement? It looks like MSHA letterhead.


Good catch there ... I was thinking about the CAT requirements, it might be that in mines, CAT IV is always required. If I am not mistaken, all outdoor _and underground_ conductors are CAT IV due to the possibility of a lightning transient.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Can't hurt to post this, it's a pretty good article:


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Tonedeaf said:


> 480V-600V nominal....
> 
> 
> 
> you get near 1000V its not safe to use a regular meter fluke or not......all you need is some worn leads and you are in a burn center for 6 months if you are lucky


I will refuse to touch anything above 750 volts to ground or phase to phase if its live. I'm not trained for it.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

alot of the procedures guys follow in industrial and utility arena. 9 times our of 10 the procedures are a result of an accident.

For example...when i worked for a POCO in the 80's....when we pulled out and 5KV breakers for maintenance....there was a written procedure I followed.....one of the steps was to after the breaker was pulled out.......I would lay on my back inside the cubical with only gloves, hard hat and safety glass and measure the voltage in the cubical bushings before racking the new breaker.

Looking back I understand how dangerous this is....and i am glad I wasn't the poor bastard that got fried before the procedure changed.

my point is many procedures get changed only after there was an accident.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Tonedeaf said:


> my point is many procedures get changed only after there was an accident.


Learned that handling heavy ordnance in the navy. 
All handling instructions are written with someone blood after an accident.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Anyone have any info on the max voltage for using a clamp-on? I've looked and can't find it.

Many years ago, I clamped a 6.9KV lead on the primary bushing of a small transformer in a substation. I was wearing rubber gloves rated for the voltage, but the vibration in the meter suggested it didn't like it. 

Anyone?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Anyone have any info on the max voltage for using a clamp-on? I've looked and can't find it.
> 
> Many years ago, I clamped a 6.9KV lead on the primary bushing of a small transformer in a substation. I was wearing rubber gloves rated for the voltage, but the vibration in the meter suggested it didn't like it.
> 
> Anyone?


Well.... It shouldn't matter. I guess as long as there is nothing close enough to arc to, voltage doesn't really matter, but corona discharge might break the delicate circuitry.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Phase to phase vs. phase to neutral/ground depends on what you're testing for. 

If it's a 3Ø 3 wire load (like a motor), then phase to phase is all that matters. What if it's a 240 4 wire ∆ system? Phase to ground would be useless and confuse anyone who doesn't understand the system.

Also, why don't they get rid of the category crap and simply make meters that don't blow up?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> Also, why don't they get rid of the category crap and simply make meters that don't blow up?


More profit plain and simple, there’s no designing to 200% safety factor anymore. There is build to the spec and no more. Sort of like NEMA vs IEC, one is built to last an eternity, and one to a minimum spec. 
It’s all dollars and cents.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Has anybody mentioned that ungrounded, or high impedence ground systems you won't read anything to ground, only PtP. Could lead to surprises on motor circuits.


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