# Who has the strictest licensing requirements



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Really tough question because licenses mean different things in different areas.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I would think the smaller the area.. the harder the test..

Best way of keeping competition in check..


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Oregon


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*oregon*



green light said:


> Oregon


I thought oregon was all peace and love. That's one of a couple states I'd like to retire in. NC is my number 1 still though...


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

8000 hours is a hell of a long time I gotta say!
As far as the JW test, It was not that bad.
The RCW/WAC part is a PITA. Mostly because all the questions I got were related to communications installation's.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Many years ago I took the license test for Oyster Bay.. Nassau County..

The test was (100) questions based on electrical code and theory..

Passing was 85%.. 

Me being from a different county is a NO NO.. to them..

I never went back to take the test again after I failed it...


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I thought oregon was all peace and love. That's one of a couple states I'd like to retire in. NC is my number 1 still though...


 Much love brother:thumbup: Just not when it comes to being an electrical contractor. 
In state of Oregon in order to become a journeyman I was required to have 8000 hrs on the job training and 2000 hrs of related training or skool. Then I had to pass the state journeymans exam. As a jman I think your required 24 hrs continuing education every 3 yrs. 
On to the next phase... In the state of Oregon you are required to have a supervisors *license*, or employ a supervisor in order to be an electical contractor. I believe our supervisors *license* is the equivalent of the masters *license* in other states? To get my supervisors *license* I was required another 8000 hrs ojt (16000 total), and I had to pass the state supervisor exam. The exam is a 4 hr 2 part test. One part is 52 code question, and the other is a 12 question calculation. Im required to be licensed with the Oregon Construction Contractors Board "CCB", the Oregon Builing Codes Division "BCD", maintain a business *license* in most any city I work in, be bonded and insured, and achieve 24 hrs of continuing ed every 3 yrs.


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I thought oregon was all peace and love. That's one of a couple states I'd like to retire in. NC is my number 1 still though...


 Its beautifull where I live, bout 4 miles from the ocean in the foothills of the coast range. The rain sucks, but the summers are great:thumbup:


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Really tough question because licenses mean different things in different areas.


 
Ok, Ill try to make my license question somewhat equivalent. It appears most areas (states and cities) require at least 8000 hrs of commercial/industrial hands on work to take the Electricians test. It just looks like that Alaska has more stringent documents you have to provide to do this.


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

brother said:


> Ok, Ill try to make my license question somewhat equivalent. It appears most areas (states and cities) require at least 8000 hrs of commercial/industrial hands on work to take the Electricians test. It just looks like that Alaska has more stringent documents you have to provide to do this.


 A lot of areas require little to no licensing


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Colorado might be a contender....~CS~


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

green light said:


> Much love brother:thumbup: Just not when it comes to being an electrical contractor.
> In state of Oregon in order to become a journeyman I was required to have 8000 hrs on the job training and 2000 hrs of related training or skool. Then I had to pass the state journeymans exam. As a jman I think your required 24 hrs continuing education every 3 yrs.
> On to the next phase... In the state of Oregon you are required to have a supervisors *license*, or employ a supervisor in order to be an electical contractor. I believe our supervisors *license* is the equivalent of the masters *license* in other states? To get my supervisors *license* I was required another 8000 hrs ojt (16000 total), and I had to pass the state supervisor exam. The exam is a 4 hr 2 part test. One part is 52 code question, and the other is a 12 question calculation. Im required to be licensed with the Oregon Construction Contractors Board "CCB", the Oregon Builing Codes Division "BCD", maintain a business *license* in most any city I work in, be bonded and insured, and achieve 24 hrs of continuing ed every 3 yrs.


lol. the state of Oregon got you paying alot of 'license' fees huh?? 

In my area it's also a minimum of 8000 hrs of *documented, signed off* commercial and industrial (some residential) to qualify for the Journeymans electrical test. 8000 hrs can take an average of 4yrs to get.. ie 2000 hrs a year, alost like going to college to get a degree. Also there is a 24hrs of continual education you have to have every 3 years to keep your license.


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

green light said:


> A lot of areas require little to no licensing


 Im aware of those areas, so they would not be in race.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Based on my own first hand experience having worked all over the country...
Starting from scratch as a green rookie... it's all about the same everywhere that actually has work to be hired for.

But for anything else.. the west (NECA) is far harder to break in and get hired on than in the east.
Once hired on and "in"... the process for licensing is again about the same everywhere:
documented job time, school hours and tests which you either have or you don't.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

We should have national uniform licensing. Just my opinion.


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

Chris1971 said:


> We should have national uniform licensing. Just my opinion.


 States and local areas would lose too much money they are not going to let that happen. 

I did find this site on Mike Holt. It lists the requirements of the licensing 

http://www.mikeholt.com/statelicense.php#WA


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> We should have national uniform licensing. Just my opinion.


We should have uniform national law for **everything**...
and far fewer of them would be nice too.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

brother said:


> States and local areas would lose too much money they are not going to let that happen.


The states can still have their separate licensing but just like with drivers licenses... 
uncomplicated reciprocity should be the standard.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

green light said:


> Oregon


Agree. You can't even change a light bulb in Oregon without a license. Absolutely pathetic. 

Moving away from that communist regime was the best thing I ever did.....by far!


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

micromind said:


> Agree. You can't even change a light bulb in Oregon without a license. Absolutely pathetic.


That is, of course, wanton hyperbole.

*Oregon Administrative Rules 918-282-0110*

General Licensing Exemptions

In addition to the exceptions provided in ORS 479.540, *electrical licenses are not required to:

(1) Replace light bulbs, fluorescent tubes or approved fuses, or to connect approved portable electrical equipment to permanently installed and properly wired receptacles;*

(2) Do experimental electrical work or testing of electrical products in electrical shops, educational institutions, industrial plants or recognized testing laboratories;

(3) Operate, maintain, repair and replace broadcast equipment of commercial radio and television stations; or

(4) Install limited energy systems not exceeding 100 voltampere ("VA") in Class 2 and 3 systems limited to:

(a) Single station smoke or ionization detectors installed in buildings three stories or less in height;

(b) Closed circuit television systems installed in buildings three stories or less in height;

(c) Master Antenna Television ("MATV") systems installed in buildings three stories or less in height; or

(d) Intercom and audio systems installed in one- and two-family dwellings.



> Moving away from that communist regime was the best thing I ever did.....by far!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

At the opposite end of the spectrum California has to be the easiest. I took and passed the Michigan journeymens test in 99. That was extremely hard in my opinion. Got a 76 and needed a 75.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

green light said:


> Much love brother:thumbup: Just not when it comes to being an electrical contractor.
> In state of Oregon in order to become a journeyman I was required to have 8000 hrs on the job training and 2000 hrs of related training or skool. Then I had to pass the state journeymans exam. As a jman I think your required 24 hrs continuing education every 3 yrs.
> On to the next phase... In the state of Oregon you are required to have a supervisors *license*, or employ a supervisor in order to be an electical contractor. I believe our supervisors *license* is the equivalent of the masters *license* in other states? To get my supervisors *license* I was required another 8000 hrs ojt (16000 total), and I had to pass the state supervisor exam. The exam is a 4 hr 2 part test. One part is 52 code question, and the other is a 12 question calculation. Im required to be licensed with the Oregon Construction Contractors Board "CCB", the Oregon Builing Codes Division "BCD", maintain a business *license* in most any city I work in, be bonded and insured, and achieve 24 hrs of continuing ed every 3 yrs.


Where do you get 2000hrs of "skool"


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> At the opposite end of the spectrum California has to be the easiest. I took and passed the Michigan journeymens test in 99. That was extremely hard in my opinion. Got a 76 and needed a 75.


I briefly looked into the Michigan test, seemed about on par with a few others I've looked into. 

I have a Washington General Journeyman license. It was an NEC test which was bonehead easy (I think I missed only one question), and then a portion on WAC/RCW (Washington-specific rules & laws), which was difficult, primarily due to the weirdness level of WAC/RCW.

I also have a Washington Electrical Administrator license. It was 3-part; NEC, WAC/RCW, and Calculations.

NEC was easy like the Journeyman test, WAC/RCW was hard (actually failed it and had to retake that portion later), and Calculations were mostly easy with a couple complex, difficult ones thrown in. Dual occupancy commercial/machine shop building with welders, motors, outline lighting, etc. That one was a bitch :blink: I passed the calcs first time (barely).

When enough time goes by I will take the WA Master exam which combines those licenses into one, basically.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

I'm surprised your standards in the States differ so much from state to state.Canada has the same requirements across the country.Four sessions of trade school 4 year apprenticeship then write a redseal interprovincial test,which is recognized across Canada.Has there been any discussion there about adopting a similar process?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

The have made the ca cert test a lot harder to pass now. Something around thirty percent passed the exam last year.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> The have made the ca cert test a lot harder to pass now. Something around thirty percent passed the exam last year.


It's because they're all high:whistling2:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*what this does*

In my opinion, when states and cities make it super strict and hard to get permits, it does 2 main things. 

It raises prices and encourages secret uninspected hackwork. 

Ex. Kentucky, California, New Jersey 

I've been to every state out there and looked at residential properties, commercial, etc...those are by far the biggest hackwork states there are!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

crosport said:


> I'm surprised your standards in the States differ so much from state to state.Canada has the same requirements across the country.Four sessions of trade school 4 year apprenticeship then write a redseal interprovincial test,which is recognized across Canada.Has there been any discussion there about adopting a similar process?


No there is no discussion. Which is stupid, there should at least be a national card that is recognized everywhere in the US.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> No there is no discussion. Which is stupid, there should at least be a national card that is recognized everywhere in the US.


The underlying issue is the same "states rights" stuff that has been at the root of our dysfunctional domestic policies for nearly the entire 235 years; and absolutely the last 100 years worth.

If a rational argument can be made to align the civil process, procedure and expectation for treatment by citizens whether we are standing in Michigan or Mississippi or Montana or Maryland on this issue... 
the floodgates will open to have such expectations on the other civil (and criminal) matters we may face as well.

The prospect of this scares the bejeebus out of a lot of people.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

micromind said:


> Agree. You can't even change a light bulb in Oregon without a license. Absolutely pathetic.
> 
> Moving away from that communist regime was the best thing I ever did.....by far!


_really?_

you mean the regulation of viable tradesmen working for the general public _is in_ the communist manifesto?

please point that out here, inquiring microminds wish to know....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BryanMD said:


> The underlying issue is the same "states rights" stuff that has been at the root of our dysfunctional domestic policies for nearly the entire 235 years; and absolutely the last 100 years worth.
> 
> If a rational argument can be made to align the civil process, procedure and expectation for treatment by citizens whether we are standing in Michigan or Mississippi or Montana or Maryland on this issue...
> the floodgates will open to have such expectations on the other civil (and criminal) matters we may face as well.
> ...


 
10thers.....another excersice in mental masturbation imho....~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

When Virginia had local licensing, Alexandria VA, was a strange mix.

You had to have 4 years to take the JW test, but I talked my way into 2.5 years if I got an 85 or higher.

But the masters was 8 years no waivers and it was an 8 hour test.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> really? you mean the regulation of viable tradesmen working for the general public is in the communist manifesto? please point that out here, inquiring microminds wish to know....


Of course the 'change the light bulb' was facetious, but Oregon has FAR more regulations and licenses than Nevada does; hence the reference to communism. 

For what it's worth, in my opinion, I've seen far more hack work in Oregon than in Nevada. Nevada doesn't license journeymen at the state level. Some cities (like Vegas and Reno) do though.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

micromind said:


> Of course the 'change the light bulb' was facetious, but Oregon has FAR more regulations and licenses than Nevada does; hence the reference to communism.
> 
> For what it's worth, in my opinion, I've seen far more hack work in Oregon than in Nevada. Nevada doesn't license journeymen at the state level. Some cities (like Vegas and Reno) do though.


granted MM, in fact i see your point...

i hold a Jman ticket in Ma, but for the same reason you cite , i'd have to be_ starving_ to work there, as i consider them mostly ineffective in terms of administrative bureaucracy

further your point could easily be debated as strictest licensing requiremnts _vs._ enforcing of them

i mean, you could have Hitler and Eva Von Braun on the licensing board, with little done if they has _no_ teeth right?

~CS~


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## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

green light said:


> Much love brother:thumbup: Just not when it comes to being an electrical contractor.
> In state of Oregon in order to become a journeyman I was required to have 8000 hrs on the job training and 2000 hrs of related training or skool. Then I had to pass the state journeymans exam. As a jman I think your required 24 hrs continuing education every 3 yrs.
> On to the next phase... In the state of Oregon you are required to have a supervisors *license*, or employ a supervisor in order to be an electical contractor. I believe our supervisors *license* is the equivalent of the masters *license* in other states? To get my supervisors *license* I was required another 8000 hrs ojt (16000 total), and I had to pass the state supervisor exam. The exam is a 4 hr 2 part test. One part is 52 code question, and the other is a 12 question calculation. Im required to be licensed with the Oregon Construction Contractors Board "CCB", the Oregon Builing Codes Division "BCD", maintain a business *license* in most any city I work in, be bonded and insured, and achieve 24 hrs of continuing ed every 3 yrs.


and if you are a contractor from out of state you have to have gone threw an oregon apprenticeship program or have double the experience listed about to take their test or you have to employ an oregon supervisor electrician to pull permits for you


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

B4T said:


> Many years ago I took the license test for Oyster Bay.. Nassau County..
> 
> The test was (100) questions based on electrical code and theory..
> 
> ...


Rockland county is closed book. I got a 38 and also will never go back. NYS sucks!!!

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Outdoorguy (Sep 5, 2011)

Montana is not far behind.

http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/license/bsd_boards/ele_board/pdf/journyman_residential.pdf


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## cccp sparky (Nov 5, 2011)

Mostest difficult exams is the Florida General Contracting a license.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*inspector*



Outdoorguy said:


> Montana is not far behind.
> 
> http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/license/bsd_boards/ele_board/pdf/journyman_residential.pdf


Better watch out when your working way out in the sheridan national forest. Let's say in centennial. An inspector might walk up on you and bust your ass!


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## National Electrical (Jan 7, 2012)

In Michigan now, in order to get an apprentice license you must be in rolled in a state approved electrical coarse throughout your apprenticeship and in order to apply to take the journeyman test you must have a total of 576 hours of coarse studies, along with 8000 hours on the job training and 4 years minimum, not including overtime.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

micromind said:


> Of course the 'change the light bulb' was facetious, but Oregon has FAR more regulations and licenses than Nevada does; hence the reference to communism.


We're all liberal hippies here, duh. Personally I prefer electrical licensing regulations and rules, it means there's more work notched out for me.



> For what it's worth, in my opinion, I've seen far more hack work in Oregon than in Nevada. Nevada doesn't license journeymen at the state level. Some cities (like Vegas and Reno) do though.


For what it's worth, Oregon also has over a million more people in it than Nevada, with the proportional increase in hack work. It also depends on what area you're in. Cheapo suburban housing developments outside of Portland, Salem, Eugene, Corvallis, etc. have a lot of craptastic work done. Lots of the chain stores and franchises have "proprietary" electrical contractors that travel around just doing those places, a lot of their work is crap. Others are good though, it all depends. Hack work is ubiquitous (hell I've done plenty of it myself) and is rather subjective to determine, anyway.



National Electrical said:


> In Michigan now, in order to get an apprentice license you must be unrolled in a state approved electrical coarse


I'm glad I never had to be unrolled in an electrical course


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

New Hampshire seems to have some strict requirements

i'll cross the connecticut river a few times a year to do work there on what would be the western side of the state

thing is, most of the small towns don't care _what _the state wants

and last i heard there were only 3 state electrical inspectors 

~CS~


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> and last i heard there were only 3 state electrical inspectors
> 
> ~CS~


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

erics37 said:


> We're all liberal hippies here, duh. Personally I prefer electrical licensing regulations and rules, it means there's more work notched out for me.
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, Oregon also has over a million more people in it than Nevada, with the proportional increase in hack work. It also depends on what area you're in. Cheapo suburban housing developments outside of Portland, Salem, Eugene, Corvallis, etc. have a lot of craptastic work done. Lots of the chain stores and franchises have "proprietary" electrical contractors that travel around just doing those places, a lot of their work is crap. Others are good though, it all depends. Hack work is ubiquitous (hell I've done plenty of it myself) and is rather subjective to determine, anyway.


One thing that irritates me a LOT about Oregon (and other states like it) is that they don't recognize actual talent and/or experience. Only state approved requirements.

I have more than 40,000 hours of actual electrical experience, a lot of it as a journeyman working alone. I've done just about every aspect of electrical work. I'm certainly not the sharpest tack in the box, but I'm not completely stupid. 

Technically, I could not get an Oregon journeymans license. I couldn't even take the test. At least not right away. The reason....I have never been an apprentice, so I don't have any classroom hours. 

Why would any government agency deny a person with my knowledge and experience the right to work in a trade that I'm more than qualified for?

In my opinion, licensing should not be based on the number of hours or even years of experience; it should be based on knowledge alone. It shouldn't matter how you gained the knowledge, just the fact that you possess it.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

micromind said:


> In my opinion, licensing should not be based on the number of hours or even years of experience; it should be based on knowledge alone. It shouldn't matter how you gained the knowledge, just the fact that you possess it.


.... um, okay. So how are they supposed to determine your level of knowledge?


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

erics37 said:


> .... um, okay. So how are they supposed to determine your level of knowledge?


 That's right I agree.Somewhere along the line a test is needed to determine your level of knowledge.I had to work my ass off to get thru the apprentice schooling to pass all the tests.I wonder about the fairness of it if the next guy did'nt have to do the same.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Micro, doubtless you're very adept at the trade, but sorry dude, the licensing rules in Oregon have been in place for quite a while, more or less unchanged since they were instituted. We don't have a "communist regime" that "wronged" you, it's just a matter of being fair to everyone and to ensuring that people who are issued licenses have received a minimum requirement of training and education.

Whether that training and education works 100% of the time is of dubious merit, of course, but the law is fair as far as I can see.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

erics37 said:


> .... um, okay. So how are they supposed to determine your level of knowledge?


Simple... "they" don't.
The State Licensed Master who would hire you determines your ability.

He needs help, talks to you asks a few questions, maybe gives a test...
when he sees that you aren't an idiot... puts you on a job.

It's not that hard.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BryanMD said:


> Simple... "they" don't.
> The State Licensed Master who would hire you determines your ability.
> 
> He needs help, talks to you asks a few questions, maybe gives a test...
> ...


Just like any other licensing efforts, I can see that being a hit-and-miss affair. You might have some reputable, conscientious Licensed Masters (how did they go about getting their licenses, by the way?) that will hire competent people like you described. But you might also have some cheap, shady guys with no ethics that only want warm bodies that work for peanuts. Then you get dangerous stuff happening that doesn't need to.

I really can't argue one way or another, all the different systems have their problems. Personally I like knowing that if I run into a Journeyman electrician in Oregon, that they went through a similar training program that I did, and that they passed the same exam that I did. Whether they slept through class or not is anyone's guess, but some of that information had to stick somewhere. I wouldn't want my house wired by a Supervisor with no scruples that just wants to make bank on his subdivision bid and hires out of the Home Depot parking lot.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Just like any other licensing efforts...


What good it might (and often does have)...
it's still mostly about enforcing restraint of trade.

From which contractors can qualify to bid on work...
right on down to which guy can get hired to set the devices.

Those who are on the inside, in general and in particular states, like it.
Those who would like to break into a new area, the ones squeezed out for no good (technical) reason... don't.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BryanMD said:


> What good it might (and often does have)...
> it's still mostly about enforcing restraint of trade.
> 
> From which contractors can qualify to bid on work...
> ...


Well personally I don't think that Micromind would have been disqualified from taking the Oregon Journeyman exam, assuming that all the work hours he had accrued can be documented:



> *Oregon Revised Statute 479.630(4):*
> 
> If the person pays the applicable application fee required under ORS 479.840 and complies with ORS 479.510 to 479.945 and the rules adopted under ORS 455.117 and 479.510 to 479.945, the Department of Consumer and Business Services shall issue:
> 
> ...


The rules determined by the board as highlighted above are described in Oregon Administrative Rule 918-282-0170.

We're a communist regime. We want as many taxpayers as possible here. To that end, it doesn't make any sense for us to prohibit qualified, competent people from coming into the state and paying into the State coffers. I imagine it's not at all unheard of for the Oregon BCD to accept appeals and grant variances for licensing applications due to situations exactly like this. When I applied for my Washington licenses all I had to do was have the State of Oregon send an Affidavit documenting my work experience, and that was good enough for Washington.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

erics37 said:


> I don't think that Micromind would have been disqualified from taking the Oregon Journeyman exam...


The question is about the restrictions and limits on getting hired.

Once hired and settled in a bit, all that other stuff may (or may not) be solveable and lead to getting licensed for a capable person without the local cred. But first the guy needs to be able to pay the rent.

The rules, like prevailing wage rules, are set up to protect those already in a state or area.


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## Turtle3000 (Feb 25, 2012)

haha I don't know if colorado is I have a license here!


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## Bo69 (Apr 11, 2012)

Chicago


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