# Strapping a nipple?



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

JasonCo said:


> That section has been taken out sense then. If you look at the code now, would it be if the nipple is 36"+ you have to strap it, you don't if less than 36"?



The code reads you have to support it even if it’s 1inch.

Although, I don’t believe any one has done it or been called on it either.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

That's also the way I read it, but I've talked to 2 supervisors and a inspector and they seam to think differently.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

It seems to me that you would follow what the rules say about strapping distances from boxes. EMT must be strapped within 36 inches of a box, so if you leave one box and enter another less than 36" away, you are good.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> It seems to me that you would follow what the rules say about strapping distances from boxes. EMT must be strapped within 36 inches of a box, so if you leave one box and enter another less than 36" away, you are good.


The EMT wouldn’t be strapped “within” 36” in you scenario.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> The EMT wouldn’t be strapped “within” 36” in you scenario.


If the code considers the conduit supported by the box up to a distance of 36" before needing another strap, then it must be supported double-plus good if there's a box on each end of the conduit less than 36" apart.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> If the code considers the conduit supported by the box up to a distance of 36" before needing another strap, then it must be supported double-plus good if there's a box on each end of the conduit less than 36" apart.


I agree on the double -plus good. 

But, I don’t think it says the conduit is supported up to 36”.

I believe it’s “securely fastened within 36”


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I agree on the double -plus good.
> 
> But, I don’t think it says the conduit is supported up to 36”.
> 
> I believe it’s “securely fastened within 36”


Yeah, it says something, the gist of which is that short nipples are fine.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

From the 2017 Code book



> 358.30 Securing and Supporting. EMT shall be installed
> as a complete system in accordance with 300.18 and shall
> be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance
> with 358.30(A) and (B).
> ...


The way I see it. The word "within" 3 foot. So if a nipple is 37 inches, it must be strapped "within" the 36 inches. If a nipple is 8", it still needs to be strapped. The code is just saying you must strap it within 3 feet. I see no rule about it not being strapped. That's the way I'm reading it. But all my supervisors seam to disagree.

Would the box and the connector be considered a securely fastened support for the EMT? The code needs to be more clear... The way I'm reading it though you have to strap the raceway. :/


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

JasonCo said:


> From the 2017 Code book
> 
> 
> 
> The way I see it. The word "within" 3 foot. So if a nipple is 37 inches, it must be strapped "within" the 36" area. If a nipple is 8", it still needs to be strapped. The code is just saying you must strap it within 3 feet. I see no rule about it not being strapped. It just has to be strapped within the 3 foot line. That's the way I'm reading it. But all my supervisors seam to disagree. I'm not going to further escalate it or anything haha, but just for ease of mind I just want to know if I'm right or wrong!


You’re right. 

I’ve never seen anyone called out on it before though.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> Yeah, it says something, the gist of which is that short nipples are fine.


It actually says the opposite of that. No?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> It actually says the opposite of that. No?


I don't read it that way. I get how someone could. But how could you strap a 1" nipple, let's say? Logically, a conduit that's strapped 36" from a box is being supported by the box inside of that 36". At say, 5 inches, what's holding the conduit up? Most people would say the box. If a box can support the conduit all the way out to 36", then it must be supporting a 1" conduit between two boxes.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> I don't read it that way. I get how someone could. But how could you strap a 1" nipple, let's say? Logically, a conduit that's strapped 36" from a box is being supported by the box inside of that 36". At say, 5 inches, what's holding the conduit up? Most people would say the box. If a box can support the conduit all the way out to 36", then it must be supporting a 1" conduit between two boxes.


I agree the box is supporting it.

But, I also believe it says it needs secured within 36”, whether it needs it or not.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I agree the box is supporting it.
> 
> But, I also believe it says it needs secured within 36”, whether it needs it or not.


To me, "within", in this case, is intended to mean "don't exceed 36 inches". That's how I interpret it, and apparently so do at least two of Jason's supervisors.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> To me, "within", in this case, is intended to mean "don't exceed 36 inches". That's how I interpret it, and apparently so do at least two of Jason's supervisors.


Well Jason’s supervisors are wrong too,lol.

I’m not sure what it’s intended to mean, I read to mean it has to be secured regardless of the length.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

This is ABSOLUTELY the LAST time I look at a post with this title with anticipation.:sad:


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

There’s a difference between supported and secured.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Here it is from 2008 McGraw Hill. I have to get a newer book. 


358.30. Securing and Supporting. Figure 358-3 shows this rule applied to an EMT layout. As stated in the basic rule of this section, EMT must be supported every 10 ft (3.0 m) and within 3 ft (900 mm) of each “outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing terminations.” Prior to the 1993 NEC, this section referred to “each outlet box, junction box, cabinet, and fit- ting.” If the word fitting is taken to include couplings, then a strap must be used within 3 ft (900 mm) of each coupling. The definition of fitting, given in Art. 100, includes locknuts and bushings. That wording was changed to provide a “laundry list” of enclosures that are covered by this rule. The intent was to clar- ify that supports are not required within 3 ft (900 mm) of EMT couplings. As permitted by Exception No. 1, clamps on unbroken lengths of EMT may be placed up to 5 ft (1.5 m) from each termination at an outlet box or fitting where structural support members do not readily permit support within 3 ft (900 mm). This exception allows the first clamp to be up to 5 ft (1.5 m) from a termination of EMT at an outlet box. This is like the comparable permission for heavy-wall steel conduits but with an important difference. The EMT between the support 5 ft back and the termination must be unbroken, without coupling. Exception No. 2 allows EMT to be fished; although this may seem odd, it has been done successfully where there is room to stage the unbroken length required.
Part (B), following the two exceptions, makes clear that no additional means of support or securing are needed where framing provides support for horizon- tal runs at least every 10 ft (3.0 m); however, in addition, the EMT must be secured within 3 ft (900 mm) of every termination.
Part (C) is new in 2008; refer to the extensive commentary at the same point in Art. 342 for essential information on the problems with this provision.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Oops. I gues it was the commentary from 342 that I meant to post.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Well Jason’s supervisors are wrong too,lol.
> 
> I’m not sure what it’s intended to mean, I read to mean it has to be secured regardless of the length.


Ok, so how do you secure a 1" nipple between boxes? What means exist to pull that off? What about chase nipples or close nipples? The conduit fill rules don't apply to nipples, why do the strapping rules?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Where is it secured within 36" of the box on the left? At the box on the right. ✓


Where is it secured within 36" of the box on the right? At the box on the left. ✓

✓✓


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I agree that it seems like it is required to be strapped because the code is not clear. And it hasn't been clear for decades, which is as long as this question has been asked and debated. And a 7th grader who got a C- on his vocabulary test could make it clear. But the code making panel is too busy accepting stupid code and making manufacturers money to actually do the right thing and clean up the code.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Stop strapping your nipples!

Don't strap other peoples nipples either, it's not nice.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

I like to clamp my nipples


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

JasonCo said:


> I like to clamp my nipples


That's quite enough information from you.:surprise:


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

I prefer this product for strapping my nipples:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

If a “Nipple” must be strapped, please tell me how to properly strap & support a “Chase Nipple”?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I might consider strapping a 3 foot long 1/2" nipple if it was in an area that someone might bend it but with larger conduit sizes I see no need for it. Besides code and the dark web say no strap until you reach the magical 36". I am fairly certain that code also requires us to strap EMT within 3 feet of a coupling as well. Correct me if I'm wrong about couplings.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> I might consider strapping a 3 foot long 1/2" nipple if it was in an area that someone might bend it but with larger conduit sizes I see no need for it. Besides code and the dark web say no strap until you reach the magical 36". I am fairly certain that code also requires us to strap EMT within 3 feet of a coupling as well. Correct me if I'm wrong about couplings.


That’s not true about couplings.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in
place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
between termination points shall be securely fastened
within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device
box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination. = coupling ?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Awg-Dawg said:


> That’s not true about couplings.


I honestly don't know about that but if you place a coupling mid span it's probably more likely to be susceptible to sag especially on a horizontal run of 1/2" EMT supported every 10 ft.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> (A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in
> place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run
> between termination points shall be securely fastened
> within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device
> box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination. = coupling ?


A coupling isn’t a termination.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

A coupling terminates at the end of a stick of conduit. lol


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Awg-Dawg said:


> A coupling isn’t a termination.


Ok I see that you are correct about this.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Easy said:


> A coupling terminates at the end of a stick of conduit. lol


Go back and read post 18. 

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother....


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HertzHound said:


> Go back and read post 18.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder why I even bother....


Thanks for that. My instincts were in-correct. It just seems like the right thing to do as it does not take any extra effort or extra materials and it is much more solid of a run.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I almost want to break down and buy the current McGraw Hill Handbook to see what they have to say on the subject. As soon as I buy it, the next one will be out. I was supposed to get a good discount on it from a friend who knows someone who works there. It hasn’t happened in two years. The discount was supposed to be really deep. :vs_cool:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> Thanks for that. My instincts were in-correct. It just seems like the right thing to do as it does not take any extra effort or extra materials and it is much more solid of a run.


 It could get really expensive if you’re running larger conduit and you have to drop strut/rod.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

The only exception is in 2008 NEC for conduits 18" or less. It went away with the 2011 NEC. And no, the word "nipple" is not a magic word that means no supports are required.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Your all crazy, if a cable is held in place with a zip tie and the NEC considers it "secured and fastened" I can't see how the termination of EMT into a panel is not secured/fastened at short distances. The NEC does not have the definition for Fastened or Fasten because it is a standard term used everywhere, just have him look up the definition.

Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fasten
Fasten:
; to make or become firmly attached or closed:
; to fix one thing to another:
; to (cause something to) become firmly fixed together, or in position, or closed:


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Well I did breakdown and buy the latest McGraw Hill Handbook. I haven’t had time to figure out how to get the EPub I bought from iBooks to load on my other devices. I’m going to be pissed if it’s stuck on just my phone. I synced iBooks with the iCloud, but I don’t see the book listed? And look at that, it puts a copyright after. My PDF version didn’t do that. 



> “The special support limitations for conduit nipples imposed in the 2008 NEC have been revoked and the text returned to that of the 2005 edition. Any nipple not over the general limit on the first point of support in length, namely 900 mm (3 ft), is considered supported by its “terminating hardware and no additional support is generally required.”
> 
> Excerpt From
> McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code (NEC) 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition
> ...


Excerpt From
McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code (NEC) 2017 Handbook, 29th Edition
Frederic P. Hartwell & Joseph F. McPartland
https://books.apple.com/us/book/mcgraw-hills-national-electrical-code-nec-2017-handbook/id1219093221
This material may be protected by copyright.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

HertzHound said:


> Well I did breakdown and buy the latest McGraw Hill Handbook. I haven’t had time to figure out how to get the EPub I bought from iBooks to load on my other devices. I’m going to be pissed if it’s stuck on just my phone. I synced iBooks with the iCloud, but I don’t see the book listed? And look at that, it puts a copyright after. My PDF version didn’t do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That is an opinion, and a poorly written one at that.

It’s not that I agree with it or not, it’s just that it doesn’t answer the question and it also uses wrong terminology.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I’d go by Hartwell and McPartland any day. But only after Cool Will or Hackwork didn’t already give an explanation. :biggrin:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

HertzHound said:


> I’d go by Hartwell and McPartland any day. But only after Cool Will or Hackwork didn’t already give an explanation. :biggrin:


 Yeah, I’d have a winning record on here if it wasn’t for those guys.:smile:


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## Wirenut951 (Aug 3, 2014)

JasonCo said:


> That section has been taken out sense then. If you look at the code now, would it be if the nipple is 36"+ you have to strap it, you don't if less than 36"?


You wouldn't need to strap an EMT nipple if it was in a backbone for instance with less than 36' between the boxes. You need a strap no further than 36" away from a termination so if the boxes are less than 36" away from each other the installation wouldn't meet that criteria.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Wirenut951 said:


> You wouldn't need to strap an EMT nipple if it was in a backbone for instance with less than 36' between the boxes. You need a strap no further than 36" away from a termination so if the boxes are less than 36" away from each other the installation wouldn't meet that criteria.


Where would I look for securing a nipple in the NEC?


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## Wirenut951 (Aug 3, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Where would I look for securing a nipple in the NEC?


I don't see any specific information about strapping or supporting a nipple. I hear guys all the time say if its 24" or less it doesn't need a strap but I can't find it in my code book (2017). The best thing to do I think is look at the specific type of conduit you're using (Ex. Article 358 for EMT). Each article has a "securing and supporting" section, if you don't see anything about a nipple then chances are its more of a preference issue and not a code issue.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Wirenut951 said:


> I don't see any specific information about strapping or supporting a nipple. I hear guys all the time say if its 24" or less it doesn't need a strap but I can't find it in my code book (2017)


 I don5 even think nipples are mentioned in the code.


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## Wirenut951 (Aug 3, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> I don5 even think nipples are mentioned in the code.


They are just not strapping and supporting. check chapter 9 note 4


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Chapter 9 is only reference information, not technically prescriptive “code”, even though it’s contained in the “code book”. Similar to the informational notes, which are “not code”. The info in ch9 is derived and compiled from the code, so it’s accurate and dependable as such. 

Nipple was a term in the code in years past, but was removed as anything special or specific in the 2011 code. It’s just difficult for some of us to get the concept of “a small piece of conduit being treated any differently from any other raceway” out of our heads. So we still operate as though a “nipple” (which is no longer a defined, technical code term) was anything special with special rules. 

Part of the confusion comes in that we have special de-rating rules in chapter 3 regarding quantity of conductors run through short lengths of raceway (310.B(3), etc). Although it has special rules for raceways shorter than 24”, it nowhere uses a special word for those raceways, let alone the word “nipple”. We often refer to them as a “gunner”, and strap or don’t strap it depending on how long it happens to be. Not whether it’s a “nipple” or not. 

Part of the confusion comes in that we can still buy a “close nipple” or a “chase nipple” and such. But that’s just the name of the item, not any special reference to preferential code treatment or identification. At the end of the day, it’s nothing more than a really really short run of raceway. 

I like kitty cats.


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