# Old load management device



## MDShunk

I still run into these from time to time. This is a circa 1955 GE 720 cycle load management device. They were installed on water heaters back in the day, along with a reduced rate "water heater meter". This device would toggle the water heater on and off when the utility sent out the 720 cycle signal. These old one's have a HUGE blob of mercury inside, so disposal can sometimes be tricky. Pictures for your enjoyment:


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## te12co2w

Never have seen one of those. We still run into some of the old dual meter systems, one meter being for water heat only. Also have never heard of the 720 pulse thing, but then we are in the sticks here. Interesting.


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## HighWirey

Beautiful pictures . . .

I miss Washington, DC where ole this stuff still lurks.


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## randomkiller

HighWirey said:


> Beautiful pictures . . .
> 
> I miss Washington, DC where ole this stuff still lurks.


Can still be seen in the older parts of NY and NJ as well.
Hell I think some of Edisons original work is still working in upper NJ.


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## HighWirey

Old is not necessarly bad . . .


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## randomkiller

HighWirey said:


> Old is not necessarly bad . . .


 
Depends on the item, in girl friends and wives it can suck real
bad.


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## Dave Dawson

Please explain the 720 cycle pulse, new to me.


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## bigredc222

I'd seen them in the past and never was sure what they were used for. I deff. didn't know about the 720 cycle. Someone can probably explain better than me about the 720 cycle but, it's like the way fiber optic cable can send mutiple signals at the same time. It's using the wire at a different time than the normal 60 cycle.


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## Dave Dawson

Thank you. I am familiar with superimposing signals, an info stream or data pulse "riding" on the 60 cycle line, I was asking what the purpose of the 720 signal was. Does the fact it's a multiple of 60 mean anything?


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## batwing44

flat rate water heater contolled by poco. 720 hertz imposed on line for 30sec = off 60sec = on. 720hertz is passed by capacitor 60 hertz is blocked.


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## Phil DeBlanc

Going strictly from memory, the 720hz switching device was an extrapolation of the Bell Telephone selective frequency party line ringer. There had been a lengthy period of negotiation to determine if a tuned circuit to pull a relay coil in or a Wurlitzer Organ Company vibrating reed system would be chosen. Wurlitzer must have been more expensive on licensing.

The system was originally envisioned for a method line operators could employ to remote operate substations and believed to be more cost effective than leasing paths from the telco. 

The idea of controlling water heaters remotely to absorb excess generating capacity was brilliant in that the heaters could be brought on or off line quickly when needed as opposed to allowing heater load only in pre determined time slots. There seems to be a movement to go back to utility control of customer owned load today to fill the same need.


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## HARRY304E

batwing44 said:


> flat rate water heater contolled by poco. 720 hertz imposed on line for 30sec = off 60sec = on. 720hertz is passed by capacitor 60 hertz is blocked.



Welcome to ET...:thumbup:


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## doubleoh7

randomkiller said:


> Depends on the item, in girl friends and wives it can suck real
> bad.


 

I don't want no dusty taco.


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## TOOL_5150

batwing44 said:


> flat rate water heater contolled by poco. 720 hertz imposed on line for 30sec = off 60sec = on. 720hertz is passed by capacitor 60 hertz is blocked.


You realize that this thread is 3+ years old?


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## Phil DeBlanc

TOOL_5150 said:


> You realize that this thread is 3+ years old?


That makes the discussion less relevant exactly how?


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## user4818

Phil DeBlanc said:


> That makes the discussion less relevant exactly how?


It means that nobody cares about it anymore.


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## HARRY304E

Peter D said:


> It means that nobody cares about it anymore.


No it means you don't care,,,Not every one else...


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## user4818

HARRY304E said:


> No it means you don't care,,,Not every one else...


Harry stop being such a troll.


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## HARRY304E

Peter D said:


> Harry stop being such a troll.


Look who is talking you are the one that comes here to pick apart just about every post you read and recking the enjoyment of the forum for the other guys that post here ..

You are more then welcome to be here but why don't you tone down the jumping on peoples case crap..

Calling every one on here a hack because you somehow think you better does not cut it.

I don't mind jokes and a little rasinig but really you seem to enjoy posting crap that makes people look like fools when they have a question that derserves a valid answer..


You are an Electrician try to be a little more professional.


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## batwing44

TOOL_5150 said:


> You realize that this thread is 3+ years old?


Old threads in my opinion are one of the parts of a forum that make it a good one. Being new here I explored the forum, saw a flat rate water heater switch that I used to install in the early 1970's. Why have old threads if not to read & comment. sorry to have spoiled your day.


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## egads

batwing44 said:


> Old threads in my opinion are one of the parts of a forum that make it a good one. Being new here I explored the forum, saw a flat rate water heater switch that I used to install in the early 1970's. Why have old threads if not to read & comment. sorry to have spoiled your day.


This is the only forum I have ever been on where the bumping of old threads is frowned upon. Of course those doing the frowning are just equal members and have no say, just opinions. They all think it's "their place" It isn't.


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## Big John

If it hadn't been bumped, I never would've seen it and never would've learned about the superimposed 720Hz.

It was useful and I appreciate it. Y'all should relax. :thumbsup:

-John


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## BBQ

Speedy the mod explained it well once.

In a thread like this it makes perfect sense to bump it, someone came along with new info about the device and we are all better for it.

On the other hand when some asks a question in 2008 like _'I am doing a service change tomorrow what size GEC do I need?'_ and three years later someone bumps it to the front with _'4 AWG'_ that is kind of stupid.


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## Shockdoc

I appreciate the proud stampings that read , " MADE IN U.S.A." . You know there was quality involved in the manufacturing and jobs for our countrymen. wall street and big business.


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## Phil DeBlanc

Shockdoc said:


> I appreciate the proud stampings that read , " MADE IN U.S.A." . You know there was quality involved in the manufacturing and jobs for our countrymen. wall street and big business.


I well remember the GE Plant where that was made. It's hard to forget a place where you're driving along the main street of a city and get passed by a NY Central train that does NOT stop for red lights. 

I suppose it's difficult for folks who weren't around in the 50s to understand that it was a different world then. The US was manufacturing 24/7 while the rest of the world was still restacking bricks and rebuilding manufacturing bombed to rubble in World War II. Of course it was made in the USA, where the hell else was there a factory that could make it, and where the hell else was their a functioning power grid that had surplus electrons to send off to heat water?

Today we live in a different world and economic reality. Our elected lawmakers have caused the copper wire we use to be refined from copper ore off shore. We can lament this situation but it won't change because we cry.


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## guest

TOOL_5150 said:


> You realize that this thread is 3+ years old?





batwing44 said:


> Old threads in my opinion are one of the parts of a forum that make it a good one. Being new here I explored the forum, saw a flat rate water heater switch that I used to install in the early 1970's. Why have old threads if not to read & comment. *sorry to have spoiled your day.*


Don't sweat it, he's a tool. :laughing:



Phil DeBlanc said:


> That makes the discussion less relevant exactly how?


It doesn't make it less relevant. 



Big John said:


> If it hadn't been bumped, I never would've seen it and never would've learned about the superimposed 720Hz.
> 
> It was useful and I appreciate it. Y'all should relax. :thumbsup:
> 
> -John


Exactly. :thumbup:

And here's a video of how they do it in New Zealand:


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## frankwell

I spent ten years (1987-1997) installing the modern version of this device. Over 65,000+ work orders!
I could write a book about all the crazy stuff I saw, electric related and otherwise.
DCU-M1181A, the water heater unit, was controlled by radio frequency, manufactured by Scientific Atlanta and was employed by our customers PEPCO,BG&E & NOVEC. 
Virginia Power used a similar device made by CHANCE but was actuated by a line carrier signal.
During those times I saw many remnants of several utility demand side load control experiments.
I never saw one of these, interesting.


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## RICK BOYD

*Me too*



Big John said:


> If it hadn't been bumped, I never would've seen it and never would've learned about the superimposed 720Hz.
> 
> It was useful and I appreciate it. Y'all should relax. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> DITTO


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## Wirenuting

The clocks in the hospital I worked in we're reset hourly by our master clock.
Had a freq generator that would pulse out at 1220hz. 
It had 2 different time durations. A short one for a small correction of minutes/seconds and a longer one at midnight to do a complete sync. 
The old unit worked without fail for 45 years. 
I could tell when one of our buss ducts had tripped out by what clocks in the building had the wrong time. 
We had 4 power centers that were all cross tied.


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## Nukie Poo

MDShunk said:


> I still run into these from time to time. This is a circa 1955 GE 720 cycle load management device. They were installed on water heaters back in the day, along with a reduced rate "water heater meter". This device would toggle the water heater on and off when the utility sent out the 720 cycle signal. These old one's have a HUGE blob of mercury inside, so disposal can sometimes be tricky. Pictures for your enjoyment:


I want it.


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## wendon

Nukie Poo said:


> I want it.


You want the clock too?? I might be tearing one out this week.


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## Nukie Poo

wendon said:


> You want the clock too?? I might be tearing one out this week.


I collect those kind of things. Love old technology. Ever seen an old electro-mechanical elevator controller or a telephone cross bar system? Love that stuff.


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## TOOL_5150

lol you guys get so worked up over 1 sentence.. i love it.


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## Nukie Poo

Anybody here ever work on any AMF pinsetters - like the 82-30s? Designed in the fifties and use stepper relays for the sequential logic control.


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## guest

Nukie Poo said:


> Anybody here ever work on any AMF pinsetters - like the 82-30s? Designed in the fifties and use stepper relays for the sequential logic control.


Youtube is your friend: 








Assisted a friend at one local bowling alley doing some repairs, can't recall the AMF pinsetter model but they seemed to be this same vintage. 

What I found really cool is how they used a Geneva (Maltese Cross) drive system on their mechanisms....a Geneva drive is the way a film projector steps and positions the frames of film for projection: 












http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector


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## BBQ

mxslick said:


> Youtube is your friend:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assisted a friend at one local bowling alley doing some repairs, can't recall the AMF pinsetter model but they seemed to be this same vintage.
> 
> What I found really cool is how they used a Geneva (Maltese Cross) drive system on their mechanisms....a Geneva drive is the way a film projector steps and positions the frames of film for projection:


Where is the drama?


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## retiredsparktech

frankwell said:


> I spent ten years (1987-1997) installing the modern version of this device. Over 65,000+ work orders!
> I could write a book about all the crazy stuff I saw, electric related and otherwise.
> DCU-M1181A, the water heater unit, was controlled by radio frequency, manufactured by Scientific Atlanta and was employed by our customers PEPCO,BG&E & NOVEC.
> Virginia Power used a similar device made by CHANCE but was actuated by a line carrier signal.
> During those times I saw many remnants of several utility demand side load control experiments.
> I never saw one of these, interesting.


I picked one up at the ward yard, on recycling day. Someone had a service change and it was removed. It wasn't GE or SA. Took the cover off to see the circuit board. It has a large P-B relay in it and appears to have circuitry to pick up a signal on the power line. There is no tuned circuits inside, so it's not a receiver based design. Made to be plugged in a meter socket.

I understand, they're not being used anymore.


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## Nukie Poo

mxslick said:


> Youtube is your friend:
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1W-lrHAuU8">YouTube Link</a>
> 
> Assisted a friend at one local bowling alley doing some repairs, can't recall the AMF pinsetter model but they seemed to be this same vintage.
> 
> What I found really cool is how they used a Geneva (Maltese Cross) drive system on their mechanisms....a Geneva drive is the way a film projector steps and positions the frames of film for projection:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector


If you saw a geneva cam then it was a Brunswick model A series pinsetter you were looking at. They use a cable operated geneva cam to shift what they call the "moving deck" which causes the pins in the chutes, attached to the moving deck, to shift reward allowing them to drop on the spots. Those machines are recognizable by the rotating turret that stores the next set of pins on top of the machine. And, your are right: that machine was from the era of the AMF 83-30. BTW, the Brunswick's sequencing logic is all mechanical; 1 motor drives all 3 of the major moving components through a contraption of gears, clutches, latches, cams, etc, where the AMF is an electrically-controlled system of 3 motors, 2 solenoids & a bunch of microswitches.


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## retiredsparktech

retiredsparktech said:


> I picked one up at the ward yard, on recycling day. Someone had a service change and it was removed. It wasn't GE or SA. Took the cover off to see the circuit board. It has a large P-B relay in it and appears to have circuitry to pick up a signal on the power line. There is no tuned circuits inside, so it's not a receiver based design. Made to be plugged in a meter socket.
> 
> I understand, they're not being used anymore.


I looked at it again today. It's made by American Scientific Instruments, of Cambridge, Ma. The unit was built in the late 70's. It uses 4000 series CMOS IC chips and a 40 pin custom chip. The relay is a SP/NC Magnacraft. 
There's a jumper plug inside to change the address codes.
Not worth anything, but interesting, just the same. :no:


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## BEAMEUP

Nukie Poo said:


> Anybody here ever work on any AMF pinsetters - like the 82-30s? Designed in the fifties and use stepper relays for the sequential logic control.


hell ya I use to work in a bowling alley before becoming an electrician, very cool stuff.


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## wildleg

BBQ said:


> Speedy the mod explained it well once.
> 
> In a thread like this it makes perfect sense to bump it, someone came along with new info about the device and we are all better for it.
> 
> On the other hand when some asks a question in 2008 like _'I am doing a service change tomorrow what size GEC do I need?'_ and three years later someone bumps it to the front with _'4 AWG'_ that is kind of stupid.


yeah, but those are the funniest

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/ufer-ground-detached-garage-1176/


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## guest

Nukie Poo said:


> *If you saw a geneva cam then it was a Brunswick model A series pinsetter you were looking at. They use a cable operated geneva cam to shift what they call the "moving deck" which causes the pins in the chutes, attached to the moving deck, to shift reward allowing them to drop on the spots. *Those machines are recognizable by the rotating turret that stores the next set of pins on top of the machine. And, your are right: that machine was from the era of the AMF 83-30. BTW, the Brunswick's sequencing logic is all mechanical; 1 motor drives all 3 of the major moving components through a contraption of gears, clutches, latches, cams, etc, where the AMF is an electrically-controlled system of 3 motors, 2 solenoids & a bunch of microswitches.


Yep, you are right, I stand corrected. A return visit to the lanes I saw the backstage action at confirmed they are Brunswick pinsetters. :thumbup:


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## erics37

Weirdly enough, mere days after this thread was resurrected, I just wired up a modern version of the same thing. It's set up at our local Poco's main office as part of their metering demonstration setup. This one receives an RF signal from the smart meter or some such. I doubt it's for any flat rate scheme, just a load management device maybe for peak hours or something. Sorry for the bad cell pic


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