# Non permitted/Insurance claims



## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Try to look past the code violations in the OP, I'm looking at the insurance side of this.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

A couple years ago I called my agent and asked specifically if they would refuse a claim for non-professional electrical work performed by a homeowner/carpenter/handyman. He said they would pay the claim.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I really have no idea if an insurance company would or would not pay a claim arising from damage from un-permitted work but I do know that they *WILL* subrogate. I have been deposed on two separate occasions where the insurance company was looking to pass the cost on to the person and/or company that performed work that resulted in damages.

That being said, a permit, inspections and approvals for your work will not necessarily protect you from a law suit but if you have all that documentation in your pocket you can at least show that what work you performed was within the legal requirements of the jurisdiction where you performed the work.

Pete


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

k_buz said:


> While reading another thread here, I remembered a post from a different forum that was contrary to much I know about insurance companies. The OP was from Long Island, and the respondent was from Boston. Is the respondent correct, or blowing smoke?


Instead of asking a bunch of knuckle dragging electricians:jester: why not call your insurance agent and ask them?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

1) I'm not a home owner
2) There are a variety of different people here, from all over the country/world, who have had many different experiences.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

First, there is very possibly no one right answer here, because insurance companies all write different policies, and if they change the language, that's the policy the homeowner agrees to accept. And obviously, every state may have its own laws regarding insurance coverage and policy language.

Having said that, in my experience living in NY and PA as a homeowner and asking the exact same specific questions, I was told in NY (In the late 90's) and in PA from then until now that my carrier (Traveler's) would not deny a claim based on the cause. The exception is willful negligence proven in a court of law and commited by the homeowner. So..if you're just ignorant of electricity and put a penny or copper pipe in the fuseholder....claim paid. If you do so knowing that it's wrong (and your profession/trade in the electrical field can make you easier to "prove" an expert and therefore NOT ignorant of your actions) and this can be proven in court, you won't get paid. It is very costly and difficult to prove willful negligence against the average homeowner unless he's dumb enough to admit his actions to someone willing to testify to his statements. So basically the guy in the OP wasn't blowing smoke.

Keep in mind that while an insurance compay may be obligated to pay the claim, there's often nothing to say *when* they must pay, and I've both seen this and had it done to me....they delay and hem and haw and delay and until you get a good agent or a good lawyer to get them off their @$$3$, you don't see dime-1.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

My experience with ins. co's is they do pay as mentioned above and will also will drop you afterwords as mentioned already. 
One of my fire jobs is a good example. 2 story single family house burned almost completly to the ground. 
Cause found to be 1 of thier children tried putting piece of firewood in thier wood burning stove, thier mom was in the shower, dad sleepling upstairs. Mom came out just in time (read towel wrapped around her, wintertime) to grab the children and make thier escape. Dad had to jump out 2nd floor bedroom window (in his shorts). 
Ins. co . paid for complete rebuild to same/as liike condition. They wete dropped and as I remember had real difficult time finding new ins. co to accept them.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Instead of asking a bunch of knuckle dragging electricians:jester: why not call your insurance agent and ask them?



Knuckle dragger...Knuckle dragger? Why I ougt to..........*


(*members who still use Google may insert photo of Moe Howard here..)


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

as others said, there is no one answer. some insurance companies are great, some will use any technicality to try to weasel out of paying claims. if the work is permitted, you do not have to worry about it. the real question is: do you want to gamble ?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The insurance company will dispute the claim when, as in what I experienced. Major renovation was under way, I had already commenced work on the first floor in disconnecting old wiring and prepping new wiring. Carpenters removed walls on second floor and left a pile of live bx piled . Approximately 10 pm in the vacant house, the pile ignited and wiped out the second floor. HO insurance battled HI and EC insurance co's . Ultimately the HO insurance payed the loss.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

k_buz said:


> Try to look past the code violations in the OP, I'm looking at the insurance side of this.


in as much as it's really hard to type while dragging my
knuckles, i'll try....

insurance is a contract between the policy holder, and
the insurance company. in the absence of bad faith,
or fraud, they legally have to pay for claims that are
covered.

insurance companies make money three ways on the
front end:

1. collecting premiums
2. not paying claims
3. subrogation

will they pay a damage claim arising from permitted
work? yep.
will they pay a claim arising from unpermitted work?
yep. just as fast.

will the subrogation department come after the person
performing the work causing the damage? yes. normally,
even before the claim check has been cut.

does it matter if you are licensed or not? no. they will
be camped on either your door or the door of your
insurance company, until they get some money.

will MY insurance company pay their insurance company?

not if they don't have to. see number two above.

if my insurance doesn't pay the subrogation claim,
what happens next? if you are smart, you will homestead
your house. you are now ground zero for the collection bomb.

if my insurance company does have to pay the claim,
can they have any recourse on me personally,
or my assets?

not generally. if they can, you will know, even before 
they pay a claim on your behalf. the subrogation department
of your own company will be climbing up your left pant leg.

short version: if you do any work, or any of your employees do
any work, you are liable for that work. license or no license,
bond or no bond, insurance or no insurance.

if you are incorporated, that is another layer between you
personally and the insurance company, but it is a layer that
has been breached in the past. if you have a shell corporation
without all the i's dotted and t's crossed, the coroporation
can be plowed thru and leave you exposed. not common,
but it has happened.

another thing at risk... your bond. that will be immediately
claimed on. your bonding company will pay a legitimate claim,
and immediately want full payment from you.

immediately.

if you don't pay, they pull the bond, and notify every bonding
company you are in arrears, until you pay.

you will have to self bond, as you are unbondable until that
is resolved.

bonding companies and insurance underwriters maintain a
shared database. if you are on it for any reason, nobody will
write you paper.

hope this clears it up for you.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Knuckle dragger...Knuckle dragger? Why I ougt to..........*
> 
> 
> (*members who still use Google may insert photo of Moe Howard here..)


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