# Ding System



## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

The problem with the ding system.

When looking at any major change in policy, we must look at four major points. Those points are how does it work, who does it hurt, who does it help and what is it's efficacy.

What is the ding system and how does it work? When a call goes out for bid and is not filled from the top of the book, the ding system comes into effect. Anyone who did not bid on it who had a lower registration position than the winning bidder or bidders receives a ding. After a predetermined number of dings, the registrant is either rolled to the back of the book or removed from the book, requiring resign. These dings can be applied per call or per day.

Who does this hurt? For book 2 registrants it primarily hurts those waiting for a specific call, realistically doing little harm. For book 1 registrants, this has the potential to do serious harm. Those working an overtime and/or per diem jobs stand to lose money taking these calls. Though we should strive to man our work, it doesn't make sense to tell a local brother to come home and man a 3-4 week 40 hour call when he's on a long term call making good money. Then there's the issue of refusal. If a member know's he will get spun by the contractor in question, there's no point in bidding while on the road. If, on the off chance said contractor does take him, it will most likely be under undesirable conditions. Another party hurt by it is the local member who can't work for medical reasons.

Who does it help? Generally, no contractor will have trouble filling their calls on a regular basis. Even in low paying locals, there is the desire to be home. If a contractor consistently has problems filling calls, it can usually be attributed to a call that is undesirable to fill or a contractor that is undesirable to work for. In the former, the Union, contractor, and customer should confer and review what can be done to alleviate the hardship or incentivise the hardship. In the latter case the contractor needs to alleviate the undesirability of working for them.

How efficacious is the ding system? If you have many unfilled calls for multiple contractors, marginally. Otherwise, not at all. It serves onlt to alienate those members it directly effects. This can have definite electoral consequences. As a note to all business agents and dispatchers/referral agents: If you enact the ding system with one contractor benefitting from it the question will be asked, "Who do you work for?"


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

If a member is on a job, they can't be dispatched to another job. Our local had a three strikes policy, you could turn down two calls, but on the third one you get rolled to the back of the book, but when work got slow, they ended the policy.
Getting rolled for one turn down is rather harsh, there are some contractors that suck and people don't want to work for them for one reason or another.
It used to be that when certain member got close to the top of the book, they'd sit there waiting for a particular contractor, or project, and just turn down everything else. I don't see what the problem with that was.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This union chit is simply way too complex and ordered for a simple moron like myself. Somebody (it might have been my kid) told me they even make you wear shoes. Holy Crap.......


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

You didn't mention short calls? How does that work with your system?

Before the bottom dropped out in '08 the IO took away most systems in place. The way I understood it was that NECA was complaining about maning jobs. They put an end to short calls and strike systems. I think the locals have to strike a happy balance between the members and the contractors. 

So when times were good, if you didn't take the job offered you had to resign the list. Not a big deal. You signed right behind your own name pretty much. Slowly the referral system went back to the way it was. 

We have the bid system also. That came about later. Basically gets through the list faster for the Hall and the contractor. No sense calling a guy that doesn't want the job, just give him a strike if the call gets to his number and he didn't put his name in. Three strikes and resign. You could get three strikes in one day. 

Any call less than 30 days (short call) is strike exempt. You can do up to 60 days of short calls, then you have to take a long call. So any combination of days or weeks as long as no single call is over not over 30 days. They have to cap it at 60 days because some guys would just work the short call list for all the overtime and never loose their place on the list. 

While on a short call, working out of town, on medical/disability or one week vacation every six months, you are strike exempt and working your way up the list. If your on a short call, you can't drag up for a long call. I'm not sure how it works out of town. I know they can't pull you back, but I'm not sure how the feel about dragging up. 

Other strike exempt jobs are at the discretion of the buisiness manager. Drug test jobs are not strike exempt. A job where you need a TWIC card or some special certification are strike exempt.

It all seems pretty fair to me. But they'll get the IO to come in and crack down on it when someone complains. Until then......


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

One reason dings exist is so unpopular contractors can get men and not be allowed to take white paper off the street


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> This union chit is simply way too complex and ordered for a simple moron like myself. Somebody (it might have been my kid) told me they even make you wear shoes. Holy Crap.......


Nice flip flops.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The IBEW locals have a duty to their men, their contractors, and their territory.

Travelers come far last. If you want to go travel, do it as your own risk. But don't cry because you can't have the freedom to turn down as many calls as you want just because you don't like them.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> The IBEW locals have a duty to their men, their contractors, and their territory.
> 
> Travelers come far last. If you want to go travel, do it as your own risk. But don't cry because you can't have the freedom to turn down as many calls as you want just because you don't like them.


I agree. That's why it says in my OP that it does little harm to book 2 registrants.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chops146 said:


> I agree. That's why it says in my OP that it does little harm to book 2 registrants.


Your entire point is talking about travelers who are out of area working but signed on book 1 at their hall.

If they want to travel, they take the risk.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

If your off working (travelling) in another local you should not be allowed to sign a book at your home local and sit at the top of the list. Only members who are not employed with the IBEW should be on the out of work list.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Your entire point is talking about travelers who are out of area working but signed on book 1 at their hall.
> 
> If they want to travel, they take the risk.


I almost always come home to help man our work. I encourage my roadies to do the same. The who it hurts is there to be contrasted with who it helps. The local does have a responsibility to the local, it's members and it's contractors, but it is officers are supposed to represent it's members just as NECA is supposed to represent it's member contractors.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chops146 said:


> I almost always come home to help man our work. I encourage my roadies to do the same. The who it hurts is there to be contrasted with who it helps. The local does have a responsibility to the local, it's members and it's contractors, but it is officers are supposed to represent it's members just as NECA is supposed to represent it's member contractors.


Blah blah blah. You like to travel so you want special privileges. 

Travelers shouldn't get free reign to sit at the top of the list waiting for a call that suits them, while the men who are actually taking part int he work in their territory get screwed over.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

eddy current said:


> If your off working (travelling) in another local you should not be allowed to sign a book at your home local and sit at the top of the list. Only members who are not employed with the IBEW should be on the out of work list.


How do you propose a member working on the road get back home then? Wait until it's a walkthrough? Sit on unemployment? Some books rarely move.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chops146 said:


> How do you propose a member working on the road get back home then? Wait until it's a walkthrough? Sit on unemployment? Some books rarely move.


The same way as every other member of the local.

No special privileges.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> The same way as every other member of the local.
> 
> No special privileges.


The top 30-40 on our book are working maintenance jobs in our local. Should they be off the book as well?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chops146 said:


> The top 30-40 on our book are working maintenance jobs in our local. Should they be off the book as well?


Union maintenance jobs? They shouldn't be on the list at all. That is not allowed in my local.

Non-union maintenance jobs? Then they are bound by the same 2 refusal rule as everyone else in the local, including those who are working in other locals.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Union maintenance jobs? They shouldn't be on the list at all. That is not allowed in my local.
> 
> Non-union maintenance jobs? Then they are bound by the same 2 refusal rule as everyone else in the local, including those who are working in other locals.


That's fair. I could get onboard with that. That is not how it's been presented here, but it hasn't been enacted yet.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

As long as there is a book tier system, you should be able to stay signed on your own book, unless we go back to a seniority system (it is to laugh). Working book 2 is not the same as taking a home call and we all know it. 



Few like to travel, I didn't and stayed home until a call came in. I do not begrudge any who traveled and stayed signed in, the calls floated down to me sooner, I went back to work sooner, how does keeping those guys active ahead of me put me back to work sooner?


They get the pick of the better jobs? Not if the job starts tomorrow and they are unable to return home in time. An honest book, no favors, cures most of those concerns


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Taconite said:


> As long as there is a book tier system, you should be able to stay signed on your own book, unless we go back to a seniority system (it is to laugh). Working book 2 is not the same as taking a home call and we all know it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that men who are working out of territory should be able to sign book 1 and be on the list. But they should have to follow the same rules as everyone else. 2 refusals and they go to the back like all the other members.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chops146 said:


> How do you propose a member working on the road get back home then? Wait until it's a walkthrough? Sit on unemployment? Some books rarely move.



Why to heck should you get special treatment because you travel to jobs with possibly higher pay and OT. Get in line with all the others.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Why to heck should you get special treatment because you travel to jobs with possibly higher pay and OT. Get in line with all the others.


Guys like him want to be able to come to areas like yours and mine and make the big money, then take it back home to their low cost living of area to spend it. And now he wants to be able to sit at the top of his home list and pick only the best jobs.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

We only have one book, the out of work book. Only unemployed members can sign it and it requires an ROE (record of employment) to do so. Members from other locals can not sign our book either. 

You work out of town on a travel call, in town, maintenance, whatever, as long as it is a union job your working and can not sign the book.

You can go work at Home Depot or cut grass and stay on the list as long as you pay dues.
You are not allowed to work in electrical for non union at all unless it is some deal you have going with the organizers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eddy current said:


> We only have one book, the out of workbook. Only unemployed members can sign it and it requires an ROE (record of employment) to do so. Members from other locals cannot sign our book either.
> 
> You work out of town on a travel call, in town, maintenance, whatever, as long as it is a union job your working and can not sign the book.
> 
> ...


What about travelers?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> What about travelers?


If we need travellers to fill jobs, then we put out a call for them. There were over 200 here last year from all parts of the country. You can not just come and sign our book unless invited. There are thousands of out of work IBEW members in western Canada for instance. If we just allowed them to come and sign our book then we would also have thousands of out of work members.

If a member from another local wants to move here and join then he/she must work with our organizers.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

brian john said:


> Why to heck should you get special treatment because you travel to jobs with possibly higher pay and OT. Get in line with all the others.


I didn't say anything about special treatment for anyone. The post was about implementing a ding system or not.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chops146 said:


> I didn't say anything about special treatment for anyone. The post was about implementing a ding system or not.


More like Ding-aLing:vs_whistle::vs_laugh:


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

If the local has instituted the ding system because the calls are not getting filled, that means it's a walk through and the traveling brother can get out anyway, if there are dings just because there can be, that is wrong. 



To many hiring halls play politics, to many young journeyman get their ticket and a road map. To many apprentices find there are no jobs at home once they top out and are no longer cheaper labor. 



There is no reason to ding anybody unless call are going unfilled.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Taconite said:


> If the local has instituted the ding system because the calls are not getting filled, that means it's a walk through and the traveling brother can get out anyway, if there are dings just because there can be, that is wrong.
> 
> To many hiring halls play politics, to many young journeyman get their ticket and a road map. To many apprentices find there are no jobs at home once they top out and are no longer cheaper labor.
> 
> There is no reason to ding anybody unless call are going unfilled.


You are so silly. 

Nothing you just said makes any sense. And we explained why at least 10 times in this thread.

Everything is not as black and white as you made it out to be. The hall could be a walk thru one day, then the next week 100 guys can sign the book.



> There is no reason to ding anybody unless call are going unfilled.


 Of course there is a reason. You can't have men sitting at the top of the list while out traveling, wait for the best jobs to come home and poach from the members who have been waiting on the list. It's unfair, and it's the reason why the vast majority of locals limit refusals.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

"Poach" is a word with many implied meanings and your reeks of entitlement, Hackwork. 



Dings have negative consequences on members and their families,many members choose not to travel, I chose not to travel, I sat at home and waited . I did not worry about other guys getting the best jobs and try to turn the system to my personal advantage by denying brothers ahead of me with rules with no merit. 



Show how this benefits or hurts the local, stop talking about your feelings, it's not just about you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Taconite said:


> "Poach" is a word with many implied meanings and your reeks of entitlement, Hackwork.


 YES, exactly.

The traveler who sits at the top of the list steals (poaches, snipes, whatever term you want to use) the job from the good member who is entitled to it. The traveler swoops in and takes the job away from the person that it should have gone to, the next person on the list.

It is absolutely insane for you to say otherwise. 



> Dings have negative consequences on members and their families


 And they should. But it's fair when they are applied correctly: which is across the board. 



> many members choose not to travel, I chose not to travel, I sat at home and waited . I did not worry about other guys getting the best jobs and try to turn the system to my personal advantage by denying brothers ahead


 That's a load of crap. It is NOT to your personal advantage. It is fair.

Allowing a traveler to sit at the top of the list and cherry pick only the best jobs is to HIS personal advantage. And that is why the vast majority of IBEW locals do not allow such a horrible thing to happen.


> Show how this benefits or hurts the local, stop talking about your feelings, it's not just about you.


I didn't talk about my feelings, and I do not get work out of my local so I don't even have a dog in this fight.

It benefits the local because it is *fair to all members*. Your idea of not using refusals for travelers is incredibly unfair to the members of the local who do not travel.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Taconite said:
> 
> 
> > If the local has instituted the ding system because the calls are not getting filled, that means it's a walk through and the traveling brother can get out anyway, if there are dings just because there can be, that is wrong.
> ...


.... should a traveling brother be exempt from the ding system as a reward for helping other locals man their jobs?


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> YES, exactly.
> 
> The traveler who sits at the top of the list steals (poaches, snipes, whatever term you want to use) the job from the good member who is entitled to it. The traveler swoops in and takes the job away from the person that it should have gone to, the next person on the list.
> 
> ...


When it's applied across the board, yes.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

360max said:


> .... should a traveling brother be exempt from the ding system as a reward for helping other locals man their jobs?


It's good to help, but we have to man our own work first.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> .... should a traveling brother be exempt from the ding system as a reward for helping other locals man their jobs?


Does a non-traveling worker get exemption from the ding system as a reward for helping his own local??

THAT is the primary goal, to man your own local, that comes first. Traveling is dead last in comparison. 

Screwing over your members who are doing the right thing at home to benefit those who are chasing big OT jobs around the country because they hate their family is a stupid idea.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > .... should a traveling brother be exempt from the ding system as a reward for helping other locals man their jobs?
> ...


1. I’m referring to book 1 having 200 guys sitting in the bench.

2. Not every traveler is chasing the OT dollars, some must travel because they can’t afford to sit and collect measly UI. Some don’t mind sitting and refuse to travel ( which is ok)

That’s what my question was based off of.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> 1. I’m referring to book 1 having 200 guys sitting in the bench.


So how would you like it if you were a good member of your local who is on that list of 200 men... You wait for 4 months to get to the top of the list. You are ready for tomorrow when your number is up. You are number 45, but those 45 have sat there for months so you know you are next. 

You hear that it is a good long term job, you are happy. But then you hear that 15 travelers who have been working big OT jobs 2 states over for the last 2 years and maintained their position at the top of the list have taken those calls. You now have to wait another few weeks for your job, which you get because it was only a 5-6 week job that no traveler wanted.

How would you like that? How is that fair?



> 2. Not every traveler is chasing the OT dollars, some must travel because they can’t afford to sit and collect measly UI. Some don’t mind sitting and refuse to travel ( which is ok)


 There are far more options than traveling or unemployment insurance. Most members of the locals work at home doing other non-electrical jobs. 

If you choose to travel, that is fine. But you do NOT deserve special privileges to screw over every other member of the local.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

"If you choose to travel, that is fine. But you do NOT deserve special privileges to screw over every other member of the local."


Such inflammatory rhetoric, screw, poach,cheat,unfair. What whining, for a person asking for special treatment without demonstrating benefit to the local. You ask for a rule to jump the book and then whine it's the only fair way.


Demonstrate the benefit to the local instead of just you, a traveler signs book 2, you sign book 1, he cannot jump you. If you are both book 2, he pulls his name when he gets work. Or is he book one and just a lowly traveler to you when he hit the road?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Taconite said:


> "If you choose to travel, that is fine. But you do NOT deserve special privileges to screw over every other member of the local."
> 
> 
> Such inflammatory rhetoric


 It's not rhetoric, it's simple fact. 



> What whining


 I am not whining, I am simply telling you how it is. 

As I mentioned, I have no dog in this fight. If anything, I spent a little over half my union career working out of territory. I am only here to educate you, just because you don't accept that, it doesn't mean that my facts are "whining".



> for a person asking for special treatment without demonstrating benefit to the local.


 I never asked for special treatment, but I demanded fair treatment. Luckily, most locals (including my own) give that.



> You ask for a rule to jump the book and then whine it's the only fair way.


 When did I ask for a rule to jump the book? Now you are posting lies. The entire premise of my posts is no jumping, just a rotating list with an equal amount of refusals for everyone across the board.



> Demonstrate the benefit to the local instead of just you


 I have tried to be reasonable, but now you are just being an idiot.

I have been very clear that I am not looking for any benefit, nor do I get one in the way the system work. I want it to be fair across the board. No matter how many time you lie and say that I am looking to benefit myself, it will never be true.



> a traveler signs book 2, you sign book 1, he cannot jump you. If you are both book 2, he pulls his name when he gets work. Or is he book one and just a lowly traveler to you when he hit the road?


What are you talking about? Book 2 has no place in this discussion. This discussion is about the members of a local signing their Book 1, and some of them going out to work on the road while still being signed into Book 1 in their home local and expecting to be able to sit at the top of the list refusing jobs without getting the same refusal "ding" that everyone else gets.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

If the dings hit everyone equally, then it is an equitable system. I don't like a ding system at all, but if there is one, it shouldn't favor anyone. Taconite, I think when Hack said travelers he was referring to book one members who are working on the road. I could be wrong though.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I’m referring to book 1 having 200 guys sitting in the bench.
> ...


...I see your point, but remember, some travelers even lose money( make less hourly and pay for hotel), .... but at least they get a pension year on extended travel stays.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> ...I see your point, but remember, some travelers even lose money( make less hourly and pay for hotel), .... but at least they get a pension year on extended travel stays.


I don't care how much they lose or what they have to pay for. 

Most people in the local lose money when they are out of work in their territory. Travelers aren't special. 

And as I explained to you in the past and you are trolling about now, many people do not get a pension credit when traveling.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

360max said:


> ...I see your point, but remember, some travelers even lose money( make less hourly and pay for hotel), .... but at least they get a pension year on extended travel stays.


I've lost money to come home. Only one contractor I wouldn't do it for. If we get the ding system, I'd happily roll to the back before taking their calls. Screwed me over twice.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> I don't care how much they lose or what they have to pay for.
> 
> Most people in the local lose money when they are out of work in their territory. Travelers aren't special.
> 
> And as I explained to you in the past and you are trolling about now, many people do not get a pension credit when traveling.


If you're enrolled in ERTS, your pension money comes home.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Chops146 said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care how much they lose or what they have to pay for.
> ...


....as it should


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > ...I see your point, but remember, some travelers even lose money( make less hourly and pay for hotel), .... but at least they get a pension year on extended travel stays.
> ...


I wasn't trolling


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

360max said:


> ....as it should


Now the health and welfare is another story...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MONEY, yes. NOT hours.

The money I would make in 99% of the IBEW locals across the country would get me around .6 pension credits. 

It might get 360max .7 credits. He will not get a "pension year" as he said.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> MONEY, yes. NOT hours.
> 
> The money I would make in 99% of the IBEW locals across the country would get me around .6 pension credits.
> 
> It might get 360max .7 credits. He will not get a "pension year" as he said.


Gotcha. That's right. With pension you get all the money, but the hours are based on your local contribution rate.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

"It is absolutely insane for you to say otherwise."
Where is the merit to the local?


"That's a load of crap. It is NOT to your personal advantage. It is fair."
Wanting to move up the book, taking people out of the way to get higher, is by definition seeking advantage


" I didn't talk about my feelings, and I do not get work out of my local so I don't even have a dog in this fight."
Steal? Poach? Good vs bad member ? Not emotional terms for a illogical. emotional, response? So sorry you can't travel.



Maybe you just are trying to justify your past practices to yourself, again where is the benefit to the local ? Are calls getting filled? White paper being taken from the street? Why ding anybody ? Book one brothers are still book one even on the road. 



Only whiners cry about how they are cheated because it's unfair.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Here is an example. What you call a Ding system, we have always called a refusal system:









Refusing this job will get you a "refusal". If the job required any special skills or had special conditions then they would not count it as a refusal. You get 2 refusals, the 3rd one sends you to the back of the list. There is an unwritten rule to allow you a 3rd refusal, you can submit for a vacation by the end of the day, that can be done once every 6 months.

This rule is applied fairly to all members across the board. It doesn't matter where you work, in territory or not. The entire point is that it does not benefit anyone and hurt anyone else, it does not give anyone an advantage.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > ...I see your point, but remember, some travelers even lose money( make less hourly and pay for hotel), .... but at least they get a pension year on extended travel stays.
> ...


... not to argue with you, but the travelers do man the jobs when the need is there , which is often on larger projects. That’s an advantage unions have, to complete huge projects in a reasonable time frame , due to available manpower and travelers willingness to travel.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I had to look at our referral system because I forget all the ins and outs. 

For us if you travel, you get a 30 day countdown timer when a call gets to your number before strikes start to take effect. So let’s say you are working out of town for a month. Not one call gets to your number. When the first call gets to you, and your working out of territory, your countdown timer starts. You are now strike exempt for 30 days. After the 30 days you get three strikes or roll off the list. 

We used to have two book one lists. One for short calls. The IO took away the short call list, you took the job or were rolled to the back. No strikes. Over time the local made changes. We still run one list, but anything under 30 days is a short call. Your allowed 60 days total of short calls. I think anything less than 30 is strike exempt. 

I think the trick is, it’s one list. 

Looking at our list there’s 60 out. Just over 30 are strike exempt. Which most likely means there working out of town or on short call. 

Seems fair.


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## fisher33 (Dec 5, 2017)

i like the idea of the strike system when it's needed, but only when all the calls are passed by a large number of people on book one constantly, i believe ours is book one long call, book one short call, then book 2, if it goes to book 2 multiple times, then the strike system starts. because we simply can't man our local which means something has to change, other wise the system doesn't operate that often, book one almost always covers most of the calls.


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