# separate laundy circuit needed?



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

:thumbsup::thumbsup:Wiring a remodel 10'x10' combo bath laundry rm. installing 20A Circuit for bath vanity.30A -2-Pole for stackable washer+dryer.Am I required to install another 20A For laundry as stated in 210-52.or can I come from said 20A Bath outlet 5ft away with another receptacle for ironing etc. Thanks for your time. got some great Tradesman on this site.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

sparky1plug said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:Wiring a remodel 10'x10' combo bath laundry rm. installing 20A Circuit for bath vanity.30A -2-Pole for stackable washer+dryer.Am I required to install another 20A For laundry as stated in 210-52.or can I come from said 20A Bath outlet 5ft away with another receptacle for ironing etc. Thanks for your time. got some great Tradesman on this site.


No. You need another 20amo circuit


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't see a way around the dedicated 120 volt laundry circuit


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Well now that I thought about it. Is it considered a laundry rm? And the 20 amp circuit required is for laundry equipment. So, you may have satisfied the code with a 30.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

210.52(F) drives the _receptacle _for laundry.



> *210.52(F) Laundry Areas.* In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.



210.22(C)(2) requires the _circuit_.



> *210.22(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits*. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> 210.52(F) drives the receptacle for laundry. 210.22(C)(2) requires the circuit.


Yes, but his equipment is rated for 30amp 240. The required circuit is for laundry equipment that would operate at 120 volt. The laundry circuit can not have any additional outlets. I think he's not required to install.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

I Think the key word here is receptacle for laundry.which happens to be a 30A Receptacle servicing laundry equip.satisfing 210-52 (F). But not 210-11 (C)(2) Is the future being considerd here by the code?unlikely! nothing will fit in this space but a solo washer or dryer.or another stackable.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Yes, but his equipment is rated for 30amp 240. The required circuit is for laundry equipment that would operate at 120 volt. The laundry circuit can not have any additional outlets. I think he's not required to install.


There is no relief for using 240v equipment. The code sections require the 120v 20-a circuit and receptacle.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> There is no relief for using 240v equipment. The code sections require the 120v 20-a circuit and receptacle.


WELLLL....it's debatable. 💪


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Is there an additional laundry rm within the dwelling?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> WELLLL....it's debatable. 💪


The code section requires _*a *20a_ circuit. Not a _*minimum* 20a_ circuit. At least one 20a circuit. Not 25 or 30 or 40 or 50. Run a 20a circuit. Now you're free to add anything else you like.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit required?*

The existing laundry area is in the Basement.to be relocated to 1st fl.1/2 Bath/Laundry rm.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit needed?*

Was going to run it anyway.wrote up the quote to include it.d'ont do a lot of resi work.seems to be a lot of stacked units.very popular.didn't know if you guys have seen this question before. outlet will never be seen or used.behind unit.just a waste.but I'm getting paid to install. Thanks for your time.Go out and make lots of $!


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> The code section requires a 20a circuit. Not a minimum 20a circuit. At least one 20a circuit. Not 25 or 30 or 40 or 50. Run a 20a circuit. Now you're free to add anything else you like.


Just want to pose this question to you and see your thoughts on it. So a dedicated laundry room would need one circuit for the laundry outlet(s) and a feed from either a 15 or 20 amp circuit for wall space outlets and lighting then.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit required?*

Could always run circuit from Loadcenter to bath/laundry rm.make up recp. just not land it.save on cost of breaker. sounds cheap! nothing says it has to be energized.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit required?*

That was posed in my original question.come off the 20A GFCI circuit serving the Bath Basin. 5ft away to serve as a20A Recp for Laundry.with no know Load.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The Laundry circuit shall have no other outlets.

The Bath circuit shall have no other outlets.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit required?*

Just grasping. great dialog. was referring to 210.11(c)(3) exception rule.


----------



## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Just want to pose this question to you and see your thoughts on it. So a dedicated laundry room would need one circuit for the laundry outlet(s) and a feed from either a 15 or 20 amp circuit for wall space outlets and lighting then.


The laundry is not counted in the wall spacing. 



> 210.52(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).


----------



## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Remember this one guys.



> Charlie’s Rule of Technical Reading
> 
> It doesn’t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn’t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don’t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.
> 
> Copyright © 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> The laundry is not counted in the wall spacing. [/QUOTE
> " or similar room or area of a dwelling unit" what exactly disqualifies this room vs others. I have had inspectors enforce installing additional receptacles.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*Laundry circuit required?*

Maybe there needs to be an exception for a know 30A stackable laundry circuit. But then again maybe not. I guess that's how we make $ putting in receps. needed or not.


----------



## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

In a kitchen there is cooking and food prep, bathroom "bathing," the other rooms involve relaxing/lounging etc. In a laundry none of those things take place. Much like a hallway or foyer, it is left off the list.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> In a kitchen there is cooking and food prep, bathroom "bathing," the other rooms involve relaxing/lounging etc. In a laundry none of those things take place. Much like a hallway or foyer, it is left off the list.


Sex on the washing machine!


----------



## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Doesn't the Laundry Circuit show up in both the optional and standard house
calculations ?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Provide one. You might have a single stack or combo now, but if down the road an owner went with an individual stacked washer and dryer the dryer would have a plug, washer would not. Only argument about having one. 



Apartments often getting a standard single piece stack get wired with one 30amp plug but half the time inspectors require another even though it may never be used.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparky1plug said:


> Was going to run it anyway.wrote up the quote to include it.d'ont do a lot of resi work.seems to be a lot of stacked units.very popular.didn't know if you guys have seen this question before. outlet will never be seen or used.behind unit.just a waste.but I'm getting paid to install. Thanks for your time.Go out and make lots of $!


If the space is tall enough for a stack washer and dryer it can certainly hold individual stacks, where the washer will need separate 120. So don't think its a waste


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Sex on the washing machine!


well that would be a dedicated space, not branch cir issue Sal....:laughing:~CS~


----------



## Nobaddaysinak (Jan 17, 2012)

I thought they were required for flat ironing purposes. Like a small appliance outlet in kitchen


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 210.52(F) drives the _receptacle _for laundry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean 210.11 (C)(2) :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> You mean 210.11 (C)(2) :laughing:


Damned computer can't type.


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*laundry circuit required?*

How is the 210.11(c)(2)exception interpreted? all circuits are in the same room/space.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

A _Bath Circuit _is installed to provide power to the receptacles used in a _Bathroom_. Bathroom is defined in Art. 100.

A _Laundry Circuit_ is installed to provide power to clothes washing & drying appliances.

Both circuits are required.


----------



## Skipbayless (May 19, 2014)

Just reading Mike Holt understanding electrical code, again, and saw this. I'm sure the issue is long resolved by now. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Skipbayless said:


> Just reading Mike Holt understanding electrical code, again, and saw this. I'm sure the issue is long resolved by now. Sent from my SCH-I535 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


But, Mike Holt's doesn't even explain it correctly. He's stating that requirement shall be met and that's it. He should also explain that the laundry branch circuit also serves for other purposes such has ironing or steam equipment not just a washer and dryer as I or we would interpret it.


----------



## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

It's fairly simple. The code states that we need a 20 amp circuit to supply for the laundry. It does not say what type of laundry equipment needs to be installed. The 20a recep is there to meet the requirement. A 220v 30 amp receptacle meets the customer's needs, and would be installed just for convenience of the customer's chosen equipment. It's not the codes problem if the customer utilizes different equipment. In fact the code, requires many receptacles and oulets, but doesn't necessarily require equipment that utilizes the requirement. 

For example: 210.70 requires a lighting outlet be installed, not once does it require a fixture or luminare be installed on the "outlet"

Mike Holt doesn't have to explain it, he merely has to read and interpret what is written. Not what may or may not be intended.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> A _Bath Circuit _is installed to provide power to the receptacles used in a _Bathroom_. Bathroom is defined in Art. 100.
> 
> A _Laundry Circuit_ is installed to provide power to clothes washing & drying appliances.
> 
> Both circuits are required.


A laundry circuit is required, but there is nothing saying you are required to use washing & drying appliances. The circuit is only for the required receptacle per the 210.52(F). Neither says you have to use the equipment in that area.



> (2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
> of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
> least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
> to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
> 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.





> (F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle
> outlet shall be installed for the laundry.


I know what the circuit & receptacle are intended for, but just pointing out what the code actually says!


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I wish the NEC was this serious to running a dedicated circuit to the fridge. I never understood why the laundry needs it more than the fridge?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

meadow said:


> I wish the NEC was this serious to running a dedicated circuit to the fridge. I never understood why the laundry needs it more than the fridge?


Why would a fridge need a dedicated circuit? My 36" side by side with icemaker is rated 6.5 FLA.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> I wish the NEC was this serious to running a dedicated circuit to the fridge. I never understood why the laundry needs it more than the fridge?


Because not everyone buys a Viking or SubZero.

Why not require a dedicated circuit for big screen TV? Pressure washers? Whirlpools? Because not everyone uses them.

If a dedicated circuit is required for every possible contingency, we'd need to install 500 - space panels. Gotta put 20 amps in every closet for a possible grow operation!


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

sparky1plug said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:Wiring a remodel 10'x10' combo bath laundry rm. installing 20A Circuit for bath vanity.30A -2-Pole for stackable washer+dryer.Am I required to install another 20A For laundry as stated in 210-52.or can I come from said 20A Bath outlet 5ft away with another receptacle for ironing etc. Thanks for your time. got some great Tradesman on this site.



Make sure the laundry rec.(120-20A) is GFCI protected. It is in a bath room.
I just got hit on that, I had a brain lock. easy miss.:thumbsup:


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Just my interpretation but, would you all agree that this requirement is not only for w/d and also as a convenience receptacle(s) as well?? 
Because the definition of "laundry" is much more then just a w/d.,,,


----------



## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

The receptacle required is not specified as to what it is utilized for, but we can certainly make assumptions. 

However


> Laundry [lawn-dree, lahn-] Show IPA
> noun, plural laun·dries.
> 1.
> articles of clothing, linens, etc., that have been or are to be washed.
> ...


The definition does not even imply a washer/dryer


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

When it comes right down to it, the only interpretation that counts will be the inspectors.


----------



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

Are we still beating this horse?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Why would a fridge need a dedicated circuit? My 36" side by side with icemaker is rated 6.5 FLA.


Why would a washer need a dedicated circuit? The average washer only pulls 9 amp. Why does it have to be a 20 amp circuit when no residential washer pulls over 12 amps? 







480sparky said:


> Because not everyone buys a Viking or SubZero.
> 
> Why not require a dedicated circuit for big screen TV? Pressure washers? Whirlpools? Because not everyone uses them.
> 
> If a dedicated circuit is required for every possible contingency, we'd need to install 500 - space panels. Gotta put 20 amps in every closet for a possible grow operation!



And not everyone has a washer with a T slot plug. The average washer could get away with being tapped from a general use branch circuit. And in terms of contingencies Id be more concerned of keeping power on to a fridge rather than a clothes washer. 

Just thinking


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> Why would a washer need a dedicated circuit? The average washer only pulls 9 amp. Why does it have to be a 20 amp circuit when no residential washer pulls over 12 amps?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People still use irons........... and steamers.........

Just sayin'.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> People still use irons........... and steamers.........
> 
> Just sayin'.



In some cases. But a small second floor closet laundry room with just enough space for a W and D less so.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

meadow said:


> Why would a washer need a dedicated circuit? The average washer only pulls 9 amp. Why does it have to be a 20 amp circuit when no residential washer pulls over 12 amps?


 My washer is plugged into a 20a receptacle, and the dryer was plugged into a 30a 240v until I switched to gas. Guess where the dryer is plugged in now?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> In some cases. But a small second floor closet laundry room with just enough space for a W and D less so.



You can always try to codify your exceptions and submit them for the '17.


----------



## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Tell me it has an ex fan or window so I can quit wondering


----------



## sparky1plug (May 23, 2008)

*laundry circuit*

Both. ex-fan and window. why u ask?


----------



## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

sparky1plug said:


> Both. ex-fan and window. why u ask?


Here its a requirement and I didn't hear it mentioned when u said circuit for the vanity. As I remember it we had to have the equipment outlets plus one dedicated circuit for, as we were today anything the maid would need to plug in. If that helps


----------

