# Estimating commercial labor and bidding. New Dollar General



## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Sooo, I’m in the process of putting an electrical bid together for a new Dollar General being built in my area. It’s a pretty basic job, 70 x 130 mostly open plan metal building. The service is going to be 400 amp 3 phase with 2 panels, lighting controller, 81 - 4ft lights hanging from unistrut, wall packs, flood lights, emergency lights, couple dozen duplex and quad receptacles, 2 rooftop hvac units, etc. The area my business covers has a few small towns and several communities. It’s rare for a new commercial business to open. I’ve worked on new commercial jobs many times in my early career, but that was for other companies. I’ve never had the chance to bid on a commercial job like this and wanted to find out what other electrical businesses are charging (ballpark figure) for labor on a job like this? I’ve got the materials and everything else other than labor under control. My overhead is very low, bucket truck, work trucks, equipment, etc is all paid for. I have a couple of guys that work for me part time, but only as needed. I don’t want to bid too high on this job and I definitely don’t want to bid too low. Any advice on how much to charge for labor? Has anyone else here bidded on a new Dollar General? And help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

You need to charge what you need to charge to make money and pay your help. This is what you do: You look at each part of the job and do your best to figure out how long it will take you, at your WORST to do that task. If you assign help to a task, figure their time at their worst, and then add 25% more. Your help won't work like you will, and they don't have any interest other than getting paid.

Add all the times for each task and multiply that by the hourly rate you have determined you require to pay yourself and your employees. Add some percentage (8% in my case) to stick in the business cookie jar. 

Don't worry about being too high. Worry about being too low. Don't take this job at a loss just to get it.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Good points, thanks. One thing about the situation is strange, the company called me 5 days before the bid was due. Ask me if I was interested, I said definitely, but that I was swamped with work and I didn’t feel like I could get a bid completed on such short notice. 5 days roll around and they contacted me again and said they had noticed I didn’t bid. I apologized and explained how busy I was and that I wished they would have contacted me earlier because it was out of the blue at a hectic time. I then said I appreciated the opportunity and to please contact me the next time they had a job in my area. As I finished the sentence the guy said no worries, we will give you another 5 days to get it finished. I said look, if you were planning on waiting the extra time anyway before deciding on which bid to take that’s fine, I also said I will keep working on it, but even with 5 more days I still make not have time to get it done. I told him I really don’t want to be the reason for the job being delayed and that I’ve purposely built a good reputation for my business by always meeting deadlines even when I’ve had to schedule people to work around the clock and that I didn’t want to tarnish that with a late or lack of bid. He then said no worries, just continue with my proposal and he would check back in a week and see how I was coming. At that point I’m thinking to myself, what is the deal here. I’ve nicely explained 2x that I more than likely will not have a complete bid by the set deadline. Yesterday (4 days after the original deadline) I started emailing the specified national accounts for quotes and immediately got a response from the one company that supplies the switchgear. The rep wrote “we supply this, this, this and this, oh and by the way you are the first person requesting a quote for the switchgear. So now I can’t figure out if I just got lucky and no other electrical business is available to work the job, or if it’s a bad thing and nobody else wants to bid the job because the company is crappy to work for / with?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

This happens all the time. You are just the local guy who some out-of-state, or maybe in-store, but large city, general contractor found on Google and called to get a low bid because it's near you. They're price shopping and may not even have the job themselves yet. 

These kind of cookie cutter jobs are so narrow in the margins that it they're hoping you'll lowball yourself so they get a better cut. I did K-Mart renovations for such a GC. You either learn how to play or you lose. If you win this job, just know that it's because you were the lowest bidder for a GC who was the lowest bidder. Don't put one extra drop of sweat or one penny on it that you don't have to. The key to makingbthks profitable is to get it done ASAP and not have to backtrack on anything.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Ya know that never crossed my mind, but now that you said that it makes sense. Possibly that’s also the reason the plans are so vague. Even printed out on full size plans, I noticed that many of the receptacles, emergency lighting and other electrical items were almost like trying to find hidden pictures in a puzzle. Tiny and blended into other items that partially overlay the symbols. I literally had to circle everything on the plans so I wouldn’t miss anything when figuring my conduit runs. Dog eat dog I guess.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's a good deal of risk for a first time bidder. 

Your estimate may be way off, that's the obvious gamble. Accurate estimates are based on experience, but you haven't developed the experience yet, so you have to guess a lot. 

You're going to have to invest a good deal of time preparing the bid, that's another gamble. This person at the other end of the phone may have no intention of using you, just getting bids until he gets a low one to beat up his regular guy with. 

If you're really busy, you're not making money somewhere else with your bread and butter while you pursue this. If you see yourself branching out into commercial / retail new construction you might want to take a swing at this, even if you lose money, to learn this kind of work and make that money back on the next one or two or three. 

Of course it might turn out that you learn there's more money for you in what you're already doing, and you lose that money to learn not to chase this work in the future. 

If your area doesn't see much new commercial construction, you may be learning this for nothing, even if you figure out how to make money at it, you can't make money on work that isn't there.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

On the plans, try using highlighters. Different color for each item you're counting. Duplex receptacles are all one color, EM lights another color, exit signs another color, etc. Makes it easier, faster & more accurate.

On the bid, if you know you're the only one in town, figure out what lodging is going to cost anyone else for per diem for their crew, and there's your cushion. Capture part of that.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

jodywade said:


> Sooo, I’m in the process of putting an electrical bid together for a new Dollar General being built in my area. It’s a pretty basic job, 70 x 130 mostly open plan metal building. The service is going to be 400 amp 3 phase with 2 panels, lighting controller, 81 - 4ft lights hanging from unistrut, wall packs, flood lights, emergency lights, couple dozen duplex and quad receptacles, 2 rooftop hvac units, etc. The area my business covers has a few small towns and several communities. It’s rare for a new commercial business to open. I’ve worked on new commercial jobs many times in my early career, but that was for other companies. I’ve never had the chance to bid on a commercial job like this and wanted to find out what other electrical businesses are charging (ballpark figure) for labor on a job like this? I’ve got the materials and everything else other than labor under control. My overhead is very low, bucket truck, work trucks, equipment, etc is all paid for. I have a couple of guys that work for me part time, but only as needed. I don’t want to bid too high on this job and I definitely don’t want to bid too low. Any advice on how much to charge for labor? Has anyone else here bidded on a new Dollar General? And help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


Just becarefull with biding .,, I am not being mean on this one but some store like Dollar General they pretty much know what the X cost will be so they have a little leeway with local priceing but just prepared for fast pacing on the set up once if you get the bid. 

the labor rate that will varies a bit in some degrees so expect that. and you may get some out of town/ state yahoos show up to do the work so be prepared for that. 

sometime it will be wise to check with other EC to see what they know about it and they can give you the tips if they are aware of it. 

I have done few major big box stores in my area and they can move pretty fast if the price is correct. the main thing is do not UNDERBID that what will bite ya hard. 
and if everything is is open ( no ceiling tile ) it will be not too bad at all.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry, but there's a 99% chance any time you spend on this will be wasted time.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> On the plans, try using highlighters. Different color for each item you're counting. Duplex receptacles are all one color, EM lights another color, exit signs another color, etc. Makes it easier, faster & more accurate.
> 
> On the bid, if you know you're the only one in town, figure out what lodging is going to cost anyone else for per diem for their crew, and there's your cushion. Capture part of that.


IMO the best you can do is a combination of old and new. 

You can use a program like Bluebeam Revu to automate takeoffs. It doesn't take much time and it will almost always find stuff you missed. After working it over with Bluebeam, print it and check it by hand. 

A printer that will handle a 36" roll is in the $2000 - $3000 range but it pays for itself pretty fast in efficiency and avoided mistakes.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Thanks to all for the info and advice, it helps me tremendously. I’m definitely going to give it a go, because I need the experience estimating and putting a job together like this. Ive been contemplating expanding my coverage area anyway and 20 miles of my current coverage area there are larger towns (large for Mississippi that is), Flowood, Brandon, Pearl, & Jackson. After I get my feet wet I can decide on whether it’s a good idea to expand or not. I’m going to slow down on this bid a bit though and take my time to avoid mistakes. I’m going to present a comfortable bid, including the things you all pointed out and focus heavily on the wording by laying out exactly what items and work my bid will be covering. Anything else that’s not crystal clear on the plans will be excluded, they can send me more detailed plans if they want the items I exclude addressed. Thanks again, if anyone thinks of anything else to add, please let me know. Oh and by the way I drove by the location of where the store is going to be built. No dirt work or clearing has been done whatsoever, didn’t even see any stakes marking boundaries or property lines. Like one of you said they may only want my bid to lower the other guys prices, I will just have to wait and see I guess.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Also regarding the printer that handles full size plans. I’m able to print out full size plans by using a regular printer, you just have to select the poster option and you can print 1 full size page that’s broke into 12 - 8.5” x 11” sheets of paper. It’s a pain in the azz to trim and tape it together but it forms complete regular size plans. Figured that might help someone else that didn’t know that was an option with a regular printer. I would definitely spend the money if I was regularly printing out plans though.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

See if you have a blueprint shop in town who will print them for $1.50 per page. That will get you started. Some time later you can see about buying a plotter. Personally today I'd rather have a big monitor (which I have several of) than a plotter.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

I will have to check on that, I’d much rather spend $60 - $75 to have them printed than the time to trim and tape 12 sheets of paper 40+ times.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

jodywade said:


> Thanks to all for the info and advice, it helps me tremendously. I’m definitely going to give it a go, because I need the experience estimating and putting a job together like this. Ive been contemplating expanding my coverage area anyway and 20 miles of my current coverage area there are larger towns (large for Mississippi that is), Flowood, Brandon, Pearl, & Jackson. After I get my feet wet I can decide on whether it’s a good idea to expand or not. I’m going to slow down on this bid a bit though and take my time to avoid mistakes. I’m going to present a comfortable bid, including the things you all pointed out and focus heavily on the wording by laying out exactly what items and work my bid will be covering. Anything else that’s not crystal clear on the plans will be excluded, they can send me more detailed plans if they want the items I exclude addressed. Thanks again, if anyone thinks of anything else to add, please let me know. Oh and by the way I drove by the location of where the store is going to be built. No dirt work or clearing has been done whatsoever, didn’t even see any stakes marking boundaries or property lines. Like one of you said they may only want my bid to lower the other guys prices, I will just have to wait and see I guess.


I'm sure this is stating the obvious, but if the base building hasn't even broken ground yet, it's going to be a long while before this TI starts, meaning you're putting time in now estimating a job that won't start for months, rather than looking at stuff that could be making you money sooner.

Is this job out for tender? Or just budgeting? (often it will say somewhere on the drawing what those plans were "issued for") The person who invited you to bid, is it their job, or are they bidding it competitively? What's the construction schedule? These are all questions that we weigh when deciding whether or not to pursue a project. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

If this is your first high-speed TI -- run away.

I've seen these jobs break ECs.

If you want to break into commercial work -- these are not the way.

You want to shop around -- and YOU select GCs -- not the other way around.

BTW, it's common for such 'plans' to be full of holes -- gaping holes.

You will be astonished.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> If this is your first high-speed TI -- run away.
> 
> I've seen these jobs break ECs.
> 
> ...


Jodywade ., this part is true espcally on last part what Telsa posted so that I ran into pretty often and once you are good at it you will know what is missing and many time with blueprints they like to throw it everywhere and put it hard to find spot which it can eat up your time and profits.,,


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> Your estimate may be way off, that's the obvious gamble. Accurate estimates are based on experience, but you haven't developed the experience yet, so you have to guess a lot.


Worst advise ever.....accurate estimates are based on accurate takeoff of all materials and applying published labor units to come up with total man/hrs. Then apply your shop rate to those units, add labor burden, then coming up with your total labor COST.
Add materials/tax, quoted materials, special systems, subcontracts, job expenses.....then you have your overall job COST.
Then add overhead/profit....
Do this on every commercial job you bid. 
If you don't know what YOUR estimated COSTS are in commercial...you won't last long.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

BTW jodywade....is this GC from out of town?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Assemblies are your friend. Also keep in mind you arent the only one bidding that job, and the gc isnt the only one either. You have probably a 5% chance of getting the job, so keep your investment to a minimum.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

You can also expect hefty insurance requirements and bond requirement.

Also keep an eye out for amount time allowed to complete your work and penalties for delays. Some places go up overnight and others take months. I can't speak for Dollar General specifically; maybe others can.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

If they demand a bond -- run -- run -- run -- run away.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

> Your estimate may be way off, that's the obvious gamble. Accurate estimates are based on experience, but you haven't developed the experience yet, so you have to guess a lot.





cdslotz said:


> Worst advise ever.....
> 
> If you don't know what YOUR estimated COSTS are in commercial...you won't last long.


But don't you learn* YOUR estimated costs in commercial* by experience - if you don't have experience, you have to guess at your costs, which is the gamble.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

splatz said:


> But don't you learn* YOUR estimated costs in commercial* by experience - if you don't have experience, you have to guess at your costs, which is the gamble.


As far as I am concerned, estimating is more of an exact science. That's why I trust my labor units for giving me the total number of man/hrs for a job, or just the man/hrs to rough in the slab, or install light fixtures.
When I am at the bottom line before I add OH&P, I am very confident in what my raw costs are. It also tells me what my competition's approximate costs are because they all use the same method which is....labor units


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Don't worry about being too high. Worry about being too low. Don't take this job at a loss just to get it.


This *exact* post should be a damn sticky in the business section!:vs_cool:


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

I’ve got experience working on big commercial ground up jobs but the difference is I was working for other companies. Never as the owner / operator and I have never bidding a commercial ground up job like this before. I’ve got the material and markup costs under control and also the actual time involved to perform the work and what I would need to break even. The things I don’t have a clue about are how much other electrical contractors that regularly work these jobs are charging and what all to watch out for. What I mean is stuff like roadblocks where I might get delayed due to other people working on the job, plumber, builder, etc dragging azz, issues with the national accounts that supply materials, or ways the general contractor might try to screw me. That’s the kinda stuff I don’t know. I’ve did every bit of this work many times but it was as a worker for another company or as an owner when dealing directly with owners of the commercial buildings on repairs, remodels and additions. I’ve heard tons of horror stories over the years but I’ve never experienced them first hand if you know what I mean. You all have mentioned the exact things I was trying to find and it helps tremendously. I assure you all I will not underbid where I lose money on this job. I just didn’t want to bid too far under other electrical contractors and throw away extra profit I could pocket. Like I mentioned before I have very low overhead and if everyone else on this DG job (if I did happen to get it) stays on schedule and out of the way I could knock it out in no time. I pay the guys that help based on work completed not hourly. Ive got really good help when I need it. They know what they are gonna make ahead of time and that the quicker we get done means we make less trips and time involved there and when I make more money they make more money.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

To the other questions, the GC told me they had the job and that it starts Feb 4th but like I mentioned doesn’t make any sense there are no marks, stakes etc. The GC is in state, over an hour away though


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Sent this email to the GC yesterday at lunch. 

XXXX,
I’m in the process of getting prices together from the national accounts. I sent an email to each asking for a list of the items that their company supplies and the pricing. I received this reply from one of them.

“The LV pricing and install is handled directly through the awarded GC. The cable tray and any conduits needed for the LV will fall into the electrical package, as well as the EMS and any HVAC cabling.”

Would you like me to estimate labor for the above, or disregard that in the bid? Also, I visited the recently built Dollar General in XXXX, Ms yesterday to get a better idea of the layout.
Also, do you know the timeframe of when the job is scheduled to start and be completed by?

Since then no response.
Looked back at earlier emails and I saw where they said Feb 4. Too many things don’t match up, like the one and only national account that supplies the switchgear told me I was the first EC to even request a quote. Also these plans do not look like finalized plans, looks like plans that would be used to solicit bids in the beginning


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> I’ve got the material and markup costs under control and also the actual time involved to perform the work and what I would need to break even


and you came up with that how?


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Just watched one of these go up near me. I would not want to be involved, crews came in all at the same time. From build, to up and running in about 5 weeks. If it is only you and part time help you may not be fast enough for the job.


Cowboy


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

just the cowboy said:


> Just watched one of these go up near me. I would not want to be involved, crews came in all at the same time. From build, to up and running in about 5 weeks. If it is only you and part time help you may not be fast enough for the job.
> 
> 
> Cowboy


This is very typical of chain retail jobs.
The OP needs to know what the schedule is and bid accordingly. If it will take overtime, he needs to include it now. Asking for it later is useless


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Quote:
I’ve got the material and markup costs under control and also the actual time involved to perform the work and what I would need to break even

and you came up with that how?


From previous jobs and experience. None of the work, materials, or equipment are new to me. I’ve estimated jobs involving the same work on upgrades, remodels, additions and repairs. I’ve just never bidded a complete ground up commercial job through a general contractor. Also there are no other licensed electrical contractors in my area within a 30 mile radius. For that reason I’ve never had a chance to learn or talk to other Ec’s about how they estimate and bid and most importantly what they would charge on a job like this, I had to figure everything out on my own by trial and error, and by loss and gain. My way is slow and probably inefficient compared to others here, but that’s also one of the reasons I joined this forum to hopefully learn from the ones that have experience in estimating and bidding. Im not saying I’m good at it, but I have no doubt that I can estimate this job and make a profit. For example, let’s assume I win the bid, have the lowest price and make a profit. My concern is that I could be throwing money away, because I don’t know if my bid was $500, or $10,000 lower than the second lowest bid. I want to get more in line with what other electrical contractors charge and learn from people that are experienced in estimating and bidding. I estimate using actual material costs then add markup and estimate my time by averaging my time on previous jobs where I did the same task and then add 10% - 30% on top of that depending on difficulty or ease of access. I use the plans and a tape or ruler to get lengths and map out runs of conduit and wiring, also I go through a lot of lead and scratch paper. Ok stop laughing... For real though, I know there are programs and apps for this exact thing, but I don’t know where to start and I don’t want to waste money and time not knowing which ones will work for what I need. On this subject I’m here to learn. Other areas of the field such as electrical fault locating, electronics fault locating and troubleshooting anything in general, I’m your man and will be glad to help out, but on estimating I’m behind the times.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

The GC just email me and confirmed the job is theirs.

“Yes sir. We’re the owner/developer/contractor for this project.”


They still haven’t told me the timeframe though. Will ask again if I don’t get a response soon


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

"Thanks for the response. I look forward to submitting a bid for this job for you. It's important for me to know the proposed schedule for this project to give you an accurate number. Please send me the latest schedule as well as the contact info to other trades for coordination.

Thanks,

Jody Wade"

Ask if there is a general spec book and how you can get a copy. Don't forget your exceptions and list anything you find contrary in the spec and plans as exceptions.

Then you can finally get down to pricing.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Awesome! Thank you. Will send it now.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

jodywade said:


> Quote:
> I’ve got the material and markup costs under control and also the actual time involved to perform the work and what I would need to break even
> 
> and you came up with that how?
> ...



sooooo....how many total man/hrs did you come up with?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Things as trivial as available parking can blow up your bid. I've seen that happen.

Watch out for pay-if-paid gambits by the GC. If the GC steps on your cash flow, you can be sunk.

You should also re-visit your favored supply houses and nail down an expanded credit line. Don't take it for granted.

The small stuff can easily build into a fiasco.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“sooooo....how many total man/hrs did you come up with?”


Still got a ways to go before I figure that up. About half way done laying out conduit runs. I’m not able to work on it continuously. I’m not going to turn down my usual service calls either. When I get finished I will post the highlights here and get everyone’s opinion before I submit it.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Things as trivial as available parking can blow up your bid. I've seen that happen.
Watch out for pay-if-paid gambits by the GC. If the GC steps on your cash flow, you can be sunk.
You should also re-visit your favored supply houses and nail down an expanded credit line. Don't take it for granted.
The small stuff can easily build into a fiasco.”


This is a very rural area. The location was literally fenced cattle land at one time. It’s all open now. 

Can’t I list my payment terms in my bid? If I can’t set my payment terms I’m out.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

"Can’t I list my payment terms in my bid? If I can’t set my payment terms I’m out."

Your terms will be their terms. Jobs like this you can be done with the job before you get your first check


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

" we will give you another 5 days to get it finished"

Does it concern you at all that they are really anxious to get a number from you?


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Your terms will be their terms. Jobs like this you can be done with the job before you get your first check.”

So my hands are basically tied and I will have no say so as to how or when I get paid? I was thinking I could list terms of payment in my bid and if they did not agree with my terms they could disregard my bid.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Does it concern you at all that they are really anxious to get a number from you?”

Yes it does, when people rush, they miss things and make mistakes.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

jodywade said:


> ...
> 
> Can’t I list my payment terms in my bid? If I can’t set my payment terms I’m out.


You can put anything you want in your bid. The whole world is negotiable.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Plans


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

jodywade said:


> I’ve got experience working on big commercial ground up jobs but the difference is I was working for other companies. Never as the owner / operator and I have never bidding a commercial ground up job like this before. I’ve got the material and markup costs under control and also the actual time involved to perform the work and what I would need to break even. The things I don’t have a clue about are how much other electrical contractors that regularly work these jobs are charging and what all to watch out for. What I mean is stuff like roadblocks where I might get delayed due to other people working on the job, plumber, builder, etc dragging azz, issues with the national accounts that supply materials, or ways the general contractor might try to screw me. That’s the kinda stuff I don’t know. I’ve did every bit of this work many times but it was as a worker for another company or as an owner when dealing directly with owners of the commercial buildings on repairs, remodels and additions. I’ve heard tons of horror stories over the years but I’ve never experienced them first hand if you know what I mean. You all have mentioned the exact things I was trying to find and it helps tremendously. I assure you all I will not underbid where I lose money on this job. I just didn’t want to bid too far under other electrical contractors and throw away extra profit I could pocket. Like I mentioned before I have very low overhead and if everyone else on this DG job (if I did happen to get it) stays on schedule and out of the way I could knock it out in no time. I pay the guys that help based on work completed not hourly. Ive got really good help when I need it. They know what they are gonna make ahead of time and that the quicker we get done means we make less trips and time involved there and when I make more money they make more money.


Um, is your enter button broken? That's one long difficult to read paragraph. TLDR


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

This job is a 'roper.' You largely can't afford to run EMT.

I suspect that you'll not be allowed to run much under the slab.

You need to see the GC's progress time-line. 

I've seen bids blow up because the GC flatly refused to let the EC run ANY PVC under the slab... others where such runs were super restricted.

You're going to have to have ALL of your minor hardware in hand early in such a job. You can't afford to be scrounging for CADDY products. This job is going to consume a lot of them.

I can't see if there is a Lighting Control Panel -- which is going to be central to your e-room assembly. Obviously a huge part of the bid will be lighting. Don't be surprised if the other trades deliberately sabotage your tempo. (put stuff in your way -- all over the floor if they have to) They'll want you to be in the dog house -- instead of them.

It's also the case that some idiot GCs permit the plumber to cut up the floor and leave it cut up way too long. Such trenches can totally frustrate your tempo.

I'd bid high and not weep if I lost the bid.

The entire job smells of a speed-up, too. It's the way modern retailers roll.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You need to see if the plumber is going to be dropping floor sinks all over the place. He'll be given priority, not you.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Um, is your enter button broken? That's one long difficult to read paragraph. TLDR”

Writing proper has never been a skill for me. Hated essays and English period.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“This job is a 'roper.' You largely can't afford to run EMT.
I suspect that you'll not be allowed to run much under the slab.
You need to see the GC's progress time-line. 
I've seen bids blow up because the GC flatly refused to let the EC run ANY PVC under the slab... others where such runs were super restricted.
You're going to have to have ALL of your minor hardware in hand early in such a job. You can't afford to be scrounging for CADDY products. This job is going to consume a lot of them.
I can't see if there is a Lighting Control Panel -- which is going to be central to your e-room assembly. Obviously a huge part of the bid will be lighting. Don't be surprised if the other trades deliberately sabotage your tempo. (put stuff in your way -- all over the floor if they have to) They'll want you to be in the dog house -- instead of them.
It's also the case that some idiot GCs permit the plumber to cut up the floor and leave it cut up way too long. Such trenches can totally frustrate your tempo.
I'd bid high and not weep if I lost the bid.
The entire job smells of a speed-up, too. It's the way modern retailers roll.”



Thanks for the info, lighting goes to controller. Also the plans say all power Is preferred overhead.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm glad you found a way to get into my 1% scenario. :wink:

You will need to find as many shortcuts as possible, things like using the "quote" button under a post you wish to directly address. 



:biggrin:






just the cowboy said:


> Just watched one of these go up near me. I would not want to be involved, crews came in all at the same time. From build, to up and running in about 5 weeks. If it is only you and part time help you may not be fast enough for the job.
> 
> Cowboy




One of the must remembers in bidding work like this is that _every_ other contractor dumps their installs on the electrician for wiring at the last possible second. They've all met the deadline and you will be a scramblin! :vs_laugh:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> You can put anything you want in your bid. The whole world is negotiable.


This is very, very important. You can't hand the reigns of your business over to an anonymous GC on the other end of the phone. You have to drive the bus. 

This looks like a very manageable size job if you're going to get into this kind of work, so it's a good job to learn the process, in that respect. But dealing with an anonymous GC - in that respect it's the worst possible job to learn with. 

The two main things are TIME AND MONEY.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MONEY 

Once you get your estimate together you have to figure out a payment schedule. If you search the business forum for "payment schedule" you'll find lots of ideas. Here's a start. 

Be very, very aware that you are extending credit to the GC for whatever you do to be paid after completion. Contractors are not banks so you really don't want to extend much credit. 

Extending credit a gamble, and it's a risky one with an anonymous GC. Just like playing cards, gamble smart, and never gamble more than you can afford to lose. 

Try to structure the payment schedule so you can stop work if there's a dispute and if necessary walk away without taking a beating. 

Maybe something simple like 

down payment upon acceptance of your proposal 
payment at rough-in 
payment at installation and distal termination of lighting 
final payment 

Make change orders paid in advance. Don't be shy with change orders. 

Put some verbage in your contract that once materials are on site, the customer takes ownership; if lost stolen or damaged, they were stolen from the CUSTOMER, not from you; they will have to pay to replace the materials. This way if the tinbangers wreck lights you don't go after the tinbangers, the GC does. 

Worst case scenario with a dispute is a lien. Make sure your contract is set up so that you have some recourse with your state's lien laws. You probably have to consult with your lawyer to make sure you have your ducks in a row on this.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

TIME 

To feel out the GC, ask about the schedule. If a GC does not have a detailed schedule and Gantt chart for the job, it's going to be a free for all / **** show. Small jobs, this is the rule not the exception. If I get a sense its going to be a nightmare, truth - I just decline to bid, life is too short. 

If there's no schedule, the attitude is basically F. the contractors, just press them as hard as possible and let them hammer it out. If your contract doesn't protect you, it could be a very unpleasant five weeks of losing money. 

Don't commit to a schedule you can't keep! 

If your estimate is off and you have to work overtime to get things done, you'll have to pay for the extra time, and if your crew has to work overtime, the overtime premium too. So you can quickly go way over. But that's on you, not them, sharpen that pencil when you're estimating. 

I generally require 24-7 access to all areas on the site so that if necessary, I can work overtime if I have to catch up, rather than bringing more people, which usually isn't practical on small jobs anyways. This is super important for me, and probably you too, I don't go out of business for all my regular customers while I do this job, I have to keep both balls in the air. 

Make sure your contract guarantees you'll get more time to complete if for whatever reason conditions on the site prevent you from working. In other words, don't let others' headaches become your headache. The contract should state that if you do not have access to the site during 7AM-5PM with access to the necessary areas such that the work can be performed in a safe and efficient manner, the schedule is void. 

If they want you to let others work days, and want your crew to work nights or weekends or holidays so others can work, to keep the schedule, that might be OK, but it's another contract, a change order. If you can only work half days, that's OK, but the schedule is void, want something different? Work out another agreement.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

The OP has not mentioned if this job has a full set of contract documents.

Plans...complete set with Architectural, civil, MEP (dated and approved for permit)
Specs...General conditions, special conditions, subcontractor (this includes schedule, payment, change order, etc requirements)

Do you have these things? If not...get them and read them


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

In this catfish end of the market, the wise EC attaches his own contract appendix to his bid.

Call it Package X. 

In it you shift the terms of the deal back in your favor.

You CAN'T live with the one-sided deal that the GC and Big Guy owner will be feeding you.

Such a contract modifier is best prepared by an attorney that specializes in construction.

A regular attorney will simply not do. They'll all lie and say they can handle it, but they can't.

Martindale.com

Forget the others. This is the master index of attorneys. It's what attorneys use when they need an attorney. The other indexes are a joke.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cold cases at the front of the store mean floor sinks -- and a wet cut floor stretching straight across the front door to reach the toilets. ( You just don't see multiple sewer hook-ups for plumbers. ) That trench is going to be a serious PITA until it's filled. But that many cases means a lot of floor sinks. That trench is going to stay open longer than you can imagine.

THIS ^^^ is the kind of thing that forces you to estimate and bid ONLY with the plumber's sheets, and all the rest.

Surface treatments are also a killer detail in retail. Stuff like slot-wall can drive you crazy.

Expect to see a few power poles//drops -- in the middle of the store -- thrown in, too. They can be a PITA when the ceiling is way high or you must go all the way to the roof. Long power poles are not a locally available item. They can be as much as a week away. ( Unless you're near to Memphis, the national distribution center for everything.)

EMT will be too slow on this job, so I'm shocked to read that you've invested any time at all on such runs. The long stuff will require 10-4 as back-bones. This would be whipped down the perimeter walls until it's appropriate to shift to 12-3 & 12-2 daughter runs. Going with such hefty MC is lowest cost because you're doing it so as to mount DIRECTLY to the perimeter wall -- first thing. The scheme is to go the longer way -- but the faster way. A decent man can pull in multiple MC runs, on a scissor lift, getting the entire back-bone done in half-a-day. 

You'll also need to know if a powder-actuated tool is going to be required. CBU// tilt-up says: yes. 

You can't be a neatness freak. So back at the panels -- presumed to be surface mounted based on the print -- you'll simply turn and drop your home runs. You'll not have the $$$ or the time to make their entries pretty. 

You'll need to BEAT THE FRAMERS so that your wall crossing rough-in beats their work. That's why you must have the ability to rope your home-runs in right at the start of the first day -- when they will also kick into high gear. They will NOT permit you to have a window in their framing for your scissor lift. Before you know it, they will one-side the framing with sheet rock. Count on it.

So this job needs a three to five man crew from the first day -- or you will buried. (Size depends upon experience, especially of the foreman.)

The down payment must cover ALL of your materials -- but these must all be obtained on credit, anyway. 

The procedure for EXTRAS must be absolutely nailed down.

Myself: I'd bid insanely high and... pray to lose the bid. 

Keep the documents for the experience. 

Then visit the job after the Other Guy loses his shirt to see how lucky you are.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

It's always better to lose the job because you bid too high, than to lose your shirt because you bid too low.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

joebanana said:


> It's always better to lose the job because you bid too high, than to lose your shirt because you bid too low.



Why would you bid too high intentionally? 

Why would you bid a job too low intentionally?

If you're not doing either intentionally.....then you're guessing


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

cdslotz said:


> *Why would you bid too high intentionally? *
> 
> Why would you bid a job too low intentionally?
> 
> If you're not doing either intentionally.....then you're guessing


Are you kidding?

This is done all the time when risk is very high;

when you're booked solid but don't want to permanently displease the GC;

when the job, if won, will force you into a lot of new hires;

if it's a building boom;

if there's a local labor shortage;

if there's a war economy;

on and on it goes. :biggrin:

As for Low Bidding:

You need to 'buy' your way into a market with high costs of entry -- but otherwise great profits;

Your crew would otherwise face catastrophic layoffs -- foremen, in particular;

The economy is in the tank, but if you can keep the crew together you'll be set for the rebound;

You're going to burn through existing inventory and then shut down;

And so forth.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

You guys would know better, but wasn’t there a time when you paid hundreds for the plans to bid. When you looked into it and decided you didn’t want the job, you bid high. If you bid and didn’t get the job you got your money back for the plan set. If you didn’t bid you wouldn’t get reimbursed. 

True or false.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> Are you kidding?
> 
> This is done all the time when risk is very high;


I get that, did you read where I said, If you're NOT doing intentionally....you're guessing, and have no clue what your costs are


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

cdslotz said:


> Why would you bid too high intentionally?
> 
> Why would you bid a job too low intentionally?
> 
> If you're not doing either intentionally.....then you're guessing



Who said intentionally? Never underestimate the unexpected. Sometimes other trades can really screw up your timeline, sometimes you screw up other trades. Sometimes you miss things on a bid, sometimes things are eliminated that were included in your bid. Some larger contractors bid based on square footage, some count every singe wirenut. It's all a "guessing game", but educated guesses work to your favor.......sometimes.
It's a cutthroat world out there, and every cut is a lesson.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I highly recommend that a noob EC deliberately place his bids way high.

1) He will have missed all kinds of stuff in the first place...

2) He wants to keep his foot in the door...

3) While not taking a beating if, Heaven forefend, he should get stuck with success...

4) Which usually means that he REALLY missed something...

5) Like the fact that the GC is virtually insolvent. (!)


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> Sometimes other trades can really screw up your timeline


That's why you don't bid GC's you don't know or from out of town....if you do, you have the schedule prior to bidding, and that is part of your contract



> Some larger contractors bid based on square footage


I don't know any that do in commercial....and anyone who does is a fool.



> It's all a "guessing game", but educated guesses work to your favor.......sometimes.


Wrong....it is an almost exact science


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Sorry for delay, got extremely busy. By the time I finished my bid it was late and I noticed dirt work was started. Like some of you mentioned I now believe they had no intention of actually using me for the job, and were hoping I would submit a lower bid so they could drive other EC’s pricing down. 

I went ahead and submitted my bid anyway and asked for feedback. The GC contacted me back the next day and said that my bid was very detailed and competitively priced. He said that if I had finished and submitted it the week before there was a good chance I would have gotten the job. He stated that he would like me to bid on the next DG job which is around 45miles away and coming up within a couple of months. 

Who knows if that’s true or if it would be just to lower the normal EC’s price again. I don’t think I going to put any time towards it, because I really don’t have to the time available to work the job, even if everything worked out in my favor. I wasted a lot of time, but it was good practice that I needed and the pricing for materials and labor ended up being 2.5x higher than I was thinking at first glance.

Definitely not something anybody should ever rush through, no matter how much you are rushed to get it done by a deadline. If I would have submitted a bid without taking the time to go over everything multiple times and get multiple prices on quotes, I would have lost money on material costs. Also be sure to ask about things that you know are supposed to be included in new construction. even if there are no mention of them on the plans. 

The wording was extremely tricky. It basically said all conduit, wiring, raceways, low voltage, controls, etc, would all be provided and installed by the EC ( anything power or electrical related). There was no mention of temporary power and other things that I knew it should be included. I asked about them and they were expected to be covered in the bid.

What I did to be safe was list everything my bid covered and made it clear that if it was not mentioned in my bid, it was not covered. I added a clause that other items could be added if more information was provided and also that change orders could be issued anytime during the construction process as long as all parties agreed to terms, conditions and costs.

After determining the cost of materials, my bid ending up being for labor only and reminded the GC if they were willing to supply the materials it would increase their overall profits by eliminating markup. I was actually surprised they were ok with that on that bid or future bids. 

Like I had mentioned in the beginning, I wanted to find out where my pricing fit in compared to what other EC’s are charging. I didn’t get the exact pricing difference, but at least now I know I was lower than other bids and can use that in the future if I need to bid around the same when I’m slow on work, or if I want to bid higher and make more money on jobs. 

It’s not that I want to excessively charge anyone, but I definitely do not want to be far below the lowest range of bids and I’ve got a better idea where that range is now. If anything I came up with on my bid would help anyone, let me know and I will send you a copy of it. I am not an expert by no means, but I will be glad to share anything I figure out while I’m learning more about estimating and bidding myself. 

Thanks again to all for the help...


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

> After determining the cost of materials, my bid ending up being for labor only and reminded the GC if they were willing to supply the materials it would increase their overall profits by eliminating markup. I was actually surprised they were ok with that on that bid or future bids.


No offence, but you dodged a bullet by doing that and you should never do it again.
The markup on materials is the one thing that can save you if labor goes over. You need to learn the relationship between the two and it's different on every job.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

I didn’t have $35k that I could tie up materials for 2-3 months though. I looked into short term construction loans but the interest rates seem ridiculously high. How does everyone else do it? Have you just got extra money on hand to put out there, or take out some type of loan?


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

usually a deposit for 50% upfront. That generally covers the materials, then a payment schedule after that.

Something like:

50% Deposit
20% on Rough-in
20% on final
10% holdback (30 days)

You might want to separate the 20% rough-in to something like

10% when all lighting installed
10% on rough-in of interior wiring

Cheers
John


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

If operating expenses are low for you and you have cash to play with why not make an attempt at the bid then send the plans to an estimating firm where they will use take-off software. Then put the 2 together. 

I don’t have lots of commercial bid experience either, but I did this the first few bids I drew up to see where I stood compared with software. It was a small investment, sometimes you need to pay to learn. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Based on the GC's comments your bid was way too low.

I also must take you to task for even messing with EMT runs for your bid.

The job was a roper. That ought to have been obvious within the first moments with the documents.

The next DG is going to be a roper, too.

If you're even THINKING about running pipe -- Heaven help you.

The correct solution was provided up-thread: 10-4 MC back-bones wrapped FIRST THING around the perimeter. Some exceptions to 10-4 could be justified back near the panel -- the short runs.

You want to WASTE you $$$$ on 10-4 MC because it saves you Big Time on labor; it permits you to get ahead of the framers. It's then a simple matter to jump out with 12-3 and 12-2 runs -- and the very occasional 12-4 to a commercial 3-phase load. These usually need the neutral for their control logic -- which you may well have to install -- and or some associated lighting -- think of a walk in cold box with a 3-phase compressor.

If you've never seen your scope of action shut down by fast moving framers -- it's a treat.

After your back-bones are in, it's a snap to jump out and pick up lighting circuits.

On this job I see the plumber wet cutting the floor and leaving a trench open.

If this is an up-from-the-dirt build, you have a shot at under-slab runs... but not always.

I've seen GCs kick ECs off the job during the slab. They didn't want any stubs in their pour. If the bid numbers are based upon under-slab PVC -- then the profit just evaporated for the EC.

If it is an up-from-the-dirt build, the plumber ought to be able to get his floor sinks -- and much else -- done without a wet-cut slab.

All of these details are under the control of the GC. 

This means that any bid calculation will jump all over the place. You can't even count on the same scheme being used on the next Dollar General. 

I'd keep a constant eye on this job -- as it's your first, best opportunity to see plans turned into a building. Yes, it's an eye-opener. Take PLENTY of notes. 

Concentrate on the tempo of the build, the sequence, the manning, and the savvy of the GC.

In all of this, you're getting to learn on the cheap. Thank the stars!

With any luck, you'll be asked to bid other projects. Be sure to come in high and or late or both.

You're not financially set for this end of the pool.

BTW, if you banker hates you -- then it's high time you spent effort with RMA -- Robert Morris Associates. This firm has the monopoly on the banker's database. Your interest quote was base upon the fact that you don't have enough liquidity -- read that to mean scratch.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

jodywade said:


> I didn’t have $35k that I could tie up materials for 2-3 months though. I looked into short term construction loans but the interest rates seem ridiculously high. How does everyone else do it? Have you just got extra money on hand to put out there, or take out some type of loan?


Your supply house may extend you some credit and you may get some credit from a bank, but believe me they know how to collect money. If you're the weakest link, you'll get cleaned out, or bankrupted, or both. 

I am going to say you probably dodged a bullet not getting this, if you didn't work out how payment schedules work, and how contracts put teeth on payment schedules, you could have been fleeced. 

There are a lot of GCs that live off regularly screwing naive contractors. If you find a GC shopping for contractors, good chance it's because they burned a bridge when they burned the last batch of contractors. 

It's not enough that they seem easy to deal with BEFORE you start demanding money from them. It's hard to vet them. You have to structure the contract so you're not vulnerable or it's just a matter of time. If you're fleeceable you'll get fleeced.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“usually a deposit for 50% upfront. That generally covers the materials, then a payment schedule after that.”


I figured asking for a large deposit would be a sure way to lose bids. My thought was that you couldn’t invoice material until they was on the job site. Are most other EC’s requiring upfront deposits on new commercial jobs?


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

jodywade said:


> “usually a deposit for 50% upfront. That generally covers the materials, then a payment schedule after that.”
> 
> 
> I figured asking for a large deposit would be a sure way to lose bids. My thought was that you couldn’t invoice material until they was on the job site. Are most other EC’s requiring upfront deposits on new commercial jobs?


You work off the terms of the specs and contract on commercial.
They would laugh at you for asking for a 50% deposit


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“If operating expenses are low for you and you have cash to play with why not make an attempt at the bid then send the plans to an estimating firm where they will use take-off software. Then put the 2 together”

I don’t think I would have time to work the job. The first one was within 10 miles of my office and less than 5 miles from my home. The future job is 45 miles away. I like the idea of sending plans to an estimating firm though and I will check into that. In your experience did you win many bids using that method? And did you use the number they gave you or did you average your bid and their bid together?


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Based on the GC's comments your bid was way too low.
I also must take you to task for even messing with EMT runs for your bid.
The job was a roper. That ought to have been obvious within the first moments with the documents.”

Thanks for the info. I had planned on using a good bit of MC, I don’t really trust my measuring enough to stub up pipe to be set in concrete at this point. I guess the worse that could happen is having to abandon it if it’s placed wrong and rerun overhead.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jodywade said:


> “If operating expenses are low for you and you have cash to play with why not make an attempt at the bid then send the plans to an estimating firm where they will use take-off software. Then put the 2 together”
> 
> I don’t think I would have time to work the job. The first one was within 10 miles of my office and less than 5 miles from my home. The future job is 45 miles away. I like the idea of sending plans to an estimating firm though and I will check into that. In your experience did you win many bids using that method? And did you use the number they gave you or did you average your bid and their bid together?




The first job I sent to a firm was far to big for me and I knew this but I wanted to see the process out. It was 4 phases at the tune of 180k -200k each phase. 

It was a great learning experience to see how this was done and then to get the detailed take-off sheets with each item, count, and cost. 

Like I said it’s not that expensive for the job you described. These guys will have that done in 60-120 minutes if the plans are clear enough. 

Just starting out at the time and knowing where I wanted to be in the future I felt this was money i needed to spend just to get a feel. 

The second job I did was a 7000 sq’ retail space which I came in Lower than the software, but it still made me adjust my number slightly higher. This was my entry into a larger job environment compared to what I was used to so I stayed lower just to get in and take the experience.... still made out very good. 

I was a nervous freak on this job. Transformers , multiple 480v RTU’s, large commercial panels... My point is somewhere you need to the the leap. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

cdslotz said:


> You work off the terms of the specs and contract on commercial.
> They would laugh at you for asking for a 50% deposit


The terms of the contract are not contained in the specifications of the project; at least not the ones I have ever seen.

Asking for a deposit upon signing is nothing unusual in commercial. Having said that, if you are working for the same GC over and over, then it is less of an issue then just some random bid coming from nowhere. No large GC is expecting a small guy to carry their job for 60 or 90 days; now if you are a large sub-trade, then the terms can be different.

If you don't want to ask for a deposit, then you need to calculate your loan payments and interest into your bid; I have never read in any specification that it is the sub-trades responsibility to fund the client's build; so don't ever be afraid to ask.

I would say typically I would carry the first 30 days on my own; most places you get 30/60/90 terms so if you go to the SH as an example and let them know you can change your terms based on what is negotiated.

Any project that I have over $250K, I go to my bank and let them know that I will be extending my credit for the 90 days to get over the hump; this is normal for them. Now if you get everything done within the 30 days, you are golden.

Cheers
John


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“I'd keep a constant eye on this job -- as it's your first, best opportunity to see plans turned into a building. Yes, it's an eye-opener. Take PLENTY of notes. 
Concentrate on the tempo of the build, the sequence, the manning, and the savvy of the GC.
In all of this, you're getting to learn on the cheap. Thank the stars!
With any luck, you'll be asked to bid other projects. Be sure to come in high and or late or both.”


Yeah, I plan on seeing how this job works out even though I’m not part of it. I pass by it every day. I had estimated my time to be 8 weeks working the job and want to see how fast it goes based on what I was thinking. Hopefully the guys working there will be willing to share some info.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“Your supply house may extend you some credit and you may get some credit from a bank, but believe me they know how to collect money. If you're the weakest link, you'll get cleaned out, or bankrupted, or both. 
I am going to say you probably dodged a bullet not getting this, if you didn't work out how payment schedules work, and how contracts put teeth on payment schedules, you could have been fleeced. 
There are a lot of GCs that live off regularly screwing naive contractors. If you find a GC shopping for contractors, good chance it's because they burned a bridge when they burned the last batch of contractors. 
It's not enough that they seem easy to deal with BEFORE you start demanding money from them. It's hard to vet them. You have to structure the contract so you're not vulnerable or it's just a matter of time. If you're fleeceable you'll get fleeced.”



This was the payment terms I listed in my bid for labor.


“If accepted, labor on this bid will be split into 4 equal payments and billed bi-weekly over 8 weeks. Invoices will be sent starting the second Friday after work begins. Payment is expected within 21 calander days of invoice date.”

If I had covered the cost of materials my payment terms for that would have been.

“Materials purchased and received will be billed weekly. Each Friday a invoice will be sent including the cost of materials received that week. Payment is expected within 21 calander days of invoice date.”


My local building supply did offer to extend credit. The national accounts would not.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“The first job I sent to a firm was far to big for me and I knew this but I wanted to see the process out. It was 4 phases at the tune of 180k -200k each phase. 
It was a great learning experience to see how this was done and then to get the detailed take-off sheets with each item, count, and cost. 
Like I said it’s not that expensive for the job you described. These guys will have that done in 60-120 minutes if the plans are clear enough. 
Just starting out at the time and knowing where I wanted to be in the future I felt this was money i needed to spend just to get a feel. 
The second job I did was a 7000 sq’ retail space which I came in Lower than the software, but it still made me adjust my number slightly higher. This was my entry into a larger job environment compared to what I was used to so I stayed lower just to get in and take the experience.... still made out very good. 
I was a nervous freak on this job. Transformers , multiple 480v RTU’s, large commercial panels... My point is somewhere you need to the the leap.”


Sounds a lot like where I’m at now. The work itself would not concern me, but I would be worried about staying on schedule and second guess myself the whole job worrying about running into to something that I forgot to add the time and cost of on my bid.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“The terms of the contract are not contained in the specifications of the project; at least not the ones I have ever seen.
Asking for a deposit upon signing is nothing unusual in commercial. Having said that, if you are working for the same GC over and over, then it is less of an issue then just some random bid coming from nowhere. No large GC is expecting a small guy to carry their job for 60 or 90 days; now if you are a large sub-trade, then the terms can be different.
If you don't want to ask for a deposit, then you need to calculate your loan payments and interest into your bid; I have never read in any specification that it is the sub-trades responsibility to fund the client's build; so don't ever be afraid to ask.
I would say typically I would carry the first 30 days on my own; most places you get 30/60/90 terms so if you go to the SH as an example and let them know you can change your terms based on what is negotiated.
Any project that I have over $250K, I go to my bank and let them know that I will be extending my credit for the 90 days to get over the hump; this is normal for them. Now if you get everything done within the 30 days, you are golden.”


thanks for the info


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

I think it’s safe to say everyone here does certain things differently. I understand that everyone’s situation is different and other reasons that EC’s do not publicly post what they charge on different jobs. What I don’t get why the other information is not more readily available so everyone could get on the same page. 

What I’m referring to is that some people ask for deposits and some some don’t. Some take out loans, some cover cost out of pocket and some ask the GC to cover materials. Many methods and expectations vary greatly and it’s seems like it would benefit electrical contractors as a whole if everyone got on the same page. It would also reduce the chance of people being taken advantage of that are just getting into bidding and estimating larger jobs. In this one post I’ve learned more about what other electrical contractor methods are than I have in the 18 years that I’ve worked in the electrical field. The knowledge everyone has shared here is invaluable and I appreciate it greatly.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

jodywade said:


> I think it’s safe to say everyone here does certain things differently. I understand that everyone’s situation is different and other reasons that EC’s do not publicly post what they charge on different jobs. What I don’t get why the other information is not more readily available so everyone could get on the same page.


I think you are right and some of that comes from being competitive. As an example, if you are large enough to float 90 days worth of material and labour, your cost will be lower and terms more attractable to the GC. The opposite to that is can they afford to take a hit for a delay or a non-payment; a non-payment will bankrupt a small company.

So even if you get the banks and SH on side, up your bid to cover those costs and win the bid, what if they don't pay? Can you afford to take the hit? Likely not, none of this has to do with you being able to do the job, it is all about your ability to ride out any issues that may arise.

One thing is for sure, no contractor regardless of trade has lost money on bid they did not win.

Cheers
John


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

“One thing is for sure, no contractor regardless of trade has lost money on bid they did not win.”

Amen to that brother. This side of the job definitely seems overwhelming. Hopefully it will all work out in the next few years and if I’m lucky, maybe I won’t run into many sticky situations. Like one of the guys mentioned in the welcome forum. It had to be extremely hard figuring out everything without the luxury of having internet and forums like this one.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

I missed a lot of info above while I was out and I’m just now seeing it. How do I do this (below) while I’m on the forum using cell phone? I don’t see a quote button. Or is that only possible from computer?


“You will need to find as many shortcuts as possible, things like using the "quote" button under a post you wish to directly address.” 

Hell I think I clicked something wrong and it said I left the conversation.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

jodywade said:


> “The first job I sent to a firm was far to big for me and I knew this but I wanted to see the process out. It was 4 phases at the tune of 180k -200k each phase.
> It was a great learning experience to see how this was done and then to get the detailed take-off sheets with each item, count, and cost.
> Like I said it’s not that expensive for the job you described. These guys will have that done in 60-120 minutes if the plans are clear enough.
> Just starting out at the time and knowing where I wanted to be in the future I felt this was money i needed to spend just to get a feel.
> ...




Nevermind, excuse my dumbness...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You need to re-work cash flow terms based upon YOUR cash flow outlays. They will prove to be very uneven.

Out my way it's COMMON for the deposit to include ALL materials. That way the EC can take a beating on labor -- but at least can cover his supply house -- theoretically. 

The usual drill in these inflationary ( and Red Chinese demand driven ) times is to nail down ALL of your materials about as fast as possible after winning the bid. Have the supply house HOLD BACK your materials until the appropriate moment. Typically, major drops will occur for:
The underground // underslab; PVC, etc.
Rough-in; MC and a pitiful amount of EMT -- for surface work back in the e-room...
Major Materials; the Big Boxes -- all custom assemblies, so often purchased on a national contract by the Big Boy -- Dollar General figures to have gone this route -- you haven't mentioned it. Don't figure to obtain ANY profit out of marking up the Big Boxes because of this gambit.
The lighting package; again, often nationally sourced by the Big Boy -- no mark-up to be had...
Trim-out minor materials; switches, receptacles and last-minute extras...

Don't use the calendar for these. Use the state of the job. 

The GC and Big Guy will place serious importance if you can stay off the Critical Path and don't foul up the flow of work. That's Pure Money in their pocket -- same as if you're working for half-off.

This is something that totally eludes electricians brought up in residential and industrial markets. In the former, the house is usually left all alone for the EC -- who is expected to slam it out. In the latter, perfection is rated higher than working around other trades. In Commercial, the EC has to run a circus act... dancing around a clown show. ( framers, plumbers, HVAC, pipefitters, roofers, flat-work, et al. )


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

It’s much better to sit at home a few days not making any mony than to work several weeks to lose money.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

telsa said:


> You need to re-work cash flow terms based upon YOUR cash flow outlays. They will prove to be very uneven.
> 
> Out my way it's COMMON for the deposit to include ALL materials. That way the EC can take a beating on labor -- but at least can cover his supply house -- theoretically.
> 
> ...



Thanks, it’s good to know that asking for a deposit will not be taken as an insult. Everything in this thread is good to know for future reference. TBH I will probably print the highlights and keep it handy to reference in the future.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> It’s much better to sit at home a few days not making any mony than to work several weeks to lose money.


Yes sir.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.




Scope: Electrical – – FET, Demo (See A1 on plans), Setting power and poles for new registers, Power for tower, Manger station and printer., Door power (See E1 and E1.1 Plans for full scope).
• Buyout: $9,000.00


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

jodywade said:


> A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can provide more of the email if needed.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

jodywade said:


> I can provide more of the email if needed.


Project Buyout

http://www.et.byu.edu/~kmiller/files/BuyoutASCEPub.pdf

Cheers
John


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> jodywade said:
> 
> 
> > I can provide more of the email if needed.
> ...


Thank you for the link. I will have to look over it in detail tonight when I get home.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

jodywade said:


> A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buyout in this context is nothing more than their budgetary wish.

Ignore it... pretty much.

It can me MILES away from your viable numbers. You don't care what they expect.

You only care about what YOU require to make a contract economically viable for YOU.

The whole idea of kicking their 'buyout' budget is to get you to pimp yourself -- as a noob they figure you stupid enough to go with their dream figure.

BTW, door power can be VERY tedious because you have to work with the glaziers. That can be a breeze -- or a can of worms. If you've never done this work before, surprise, surprise. In modern commercial work these are MC feeds that get buried behind sheetrock/ trim. They then snake through to the actuation devices. Many glaziers are entirely happy to lay the conductors in and to terminate them. You only have to bring plenty of MC to their entry mullion. No j-box is expected -- or tolerated. So don't short-whip these puppies. The mullion entry, itself, may require a two-screw MC connector. (it's too thick) If you need one, and it's not handy, your job can blow-up.

Anchoring power poles into a T-grid is fine -- until the grid is WAY HIGH. Then you find you have to bring in a super-sized pole -- and it's a WEEK OUT. This is also true for the new-wave missing ceiling scheme. ( The upper works are all sprayed black at the last moment. ) Now how do you anchor your power pole?

Figure on lift rental -- and that lift had better have white, clean tires that don't leave marks and don't tear up carpeting. Don't be surprised if you don't end up laying down protection for the scissor lift. These are the kinds of things that skip the mind of ECs.

The other bid headache: hours of access. This is often a bid breaker. The TI has to go on within a shopping mall that wants to stay open. This means you have to work around ordinary goods deliveries... and you're not top gorilla.

The sear dimensions of such malls may through you for a loop: the loading dock is hundreds of yards away from where you're going to do your thing. You don't get to stage material to suit yourself, either. You may have to hire on a schlepper. :surprise:

It's also common for an EC to be forced to leave his foreman// lead man on the site while the job is running -- he'll need to wear his sacks. Many seasoned foremen won't (long) tolerate this, BTW. So you need to have the Right Guy to run the work. Don't think of a super-seasoned foreman. This is a young guy's game.

Generally, the EC can't hang around such jobs. So if you don't have the talent, shun the bid.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

jodywade said:


> A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buyout in this context is nothing more than their budgetary wish.

Ignore it... pretty much.

It can me MILES away from your viable numbers. You don't care what they expect.

You only care about what YOU require to make a contract economically viable for YOU.

The whole idea of kicking their 'buyout' budget is to get you to pimp yourself -- as a noob they figure you stupid enough to go with their dream figure.

BTW, door power can be VERY tedious because you have to work with the glaziers. That can be a breeze -- or a can of worms. If you've never done this work before, surprise, surprise. In modern commercial work these are MC feeds that get buried behind sheetrock/ trim. They then snake through to the actuation devices. Many glaziers are entirely happy to lay the conductors in and to terminate them. You only have to bring plenty of MC to their entry mullion. No j-box is expected -- or tolerated. So don't short-whip these puppies. The mullion entry, itself, may require a two-screw MC connector. (it's too thick) If you need one, and it's not handy, your job can blow-up.

Anchoring power poles into a T-grid is fine -- until the grid is WAY HIGH. Then you find you have to bring in a super-sized pole -- and it's a WEEK OUT. This is also true for the new-wave missing ceiling scheme. ( The upper works are all sprayed black at the last moment. ) Now how do you anchor your power pole?

Figure on lift rental -- and that lift had better have white, clean tires that don't leave marks and don't tear up carpeting. Don't be surprised if you don't end up laying down protection for the scissor lift. These are the kinds of things that skip the mind of ECs.

The other bid headache: hours of access. This is often a bid breaker. The TI has to go on within a shopping mall that wants to stay open. This means you have to work around ordinary goods deliveries... and you're not top gorilla.

The sear dimensions of such malls may through you for a loop: the loading dock is hundreds of yards away from where you're going to do your thing. You don't get to stage material to suit yourself, either. You may have to hire on a schlepper. :surprise:

It's also common for an EC to be forced to leave his foreman// lead man on the site while the job is running -- he'll need to wear his sacks. Many seasoned foremen won't (long) tolerate this, BTW. So you need to have the Right Guy to run the work. Don't think of a super-seasoned foreman. This is a young guy's game.

Generally, the EC, himself, can't hang around such jobs. So if you don't have the talent, shun the bid.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Slow...slow...to post ... and then it's a double post.

Something's off back at headquarters.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

telsa said:


> jodywade said:
> 
> 
> > A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> ...


This is pretty much the full email minus the address. Says lift will be provided and work will be done at night. I just got home, after I eat I’m going to dig into the plans more. I did notice at a glance that power pole and equipment would be provided by the store. 



We have an electrical scope of work that we need completed for this project. With the location of the work in the store we will have to do the work between 9 pm – 6 am. We will need everything completed on E1 and E1.1. If you would please let me know if you have the interest and availability, I would appreciate it. 

Details
• Address: 
• Start date: March 31th FET portion starts April 7th
• Scope: Electrical – – FET, Demo (See A1 on plans), Setting power and poles for new registers, Power for tower, Manger station and printer., Door power (See E1 and E1.1 Plans for full scope).
• Buyout: $9,000.00

Please call if you have any questions that I can answer for you.

There will be a lift on site for you.

Thank you,




Haven’t install an automatic door like this before, but I’m pretty good at getting wiring thought right places if that’s what it’s going to involve and have pretty much every gadget available. Speaking off, anybody that’s not familiar with a magnepull, check into it. Freaking life saver. Won’t work right in metal buildings because it uses high strength magnets, but houses, wood frame buildings, and insulated walls it’s bad azz


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

jodywade said:


> A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I work with 2 of these management companies from out of state. However, I’ve never seen a buyout on the scope. 

At first I was skeptical but I’ve never had an issue with them , they pay fast and they send us out to all sorts of places like Barnes & Noble, VIP Auto, Autozone, CVS, Best Buy and companies alike.

As I mentioned in a recent post about gaining more commercial work outside of GC ran construction projects it’s all on the facilities department. Build rapport with them and your in like flynn. But I was talking more about in-house guys.

I would never let anyone tell me my price though. 

Off topic but, 
Have you ever got a call from a Repo company ? 
They sent me plans to go into a known glass company’s facility (in my town) and destroy a glass cutting machine worth around 20k. 
Directions on contract stated kill power, rip out and destroy all electronics within the machine !!

Are they out of their tree ? I mean this could get me arrested ? I told them no thanks , bye...

I still wonder what these company’s are thinking ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Repo man needs a court order. 

Pulling the key (slotted) electronic boards would more than suffice. 

The machine would become brain-dead.

What's weird is that we're in a building boom. 

The players should be flush with cash.

Smells like the owner is a gambling addict.


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## jodywade (Jan 30, 2019)

WronGun said:


> jodywade said:
> 
> 
> > A little bit off topic, but I had a facility management company email me earlier about a remodel job coming up at a chain retail store. I’ve did work with them before and they have been great to work with so far. He sent me the plans and a basic description to see if I was available and interested. What is he meaning by “buyout”? Is that what the job would pay me? Or is that the budget for the entire project, or something else? I’ve never seen “buyout” used like this in a job description. I started to ask but didn’t want to sound like an idiot.
> ...



I’ve always had good luck with facility management companies too and it’s good money if your willing to work late hours. This is the first time they sent me a job with a price. The address of the job is 100 miles away and working night hours on top of that. From what I had time to look at on the plans there is a lot of demo involved and the complete circuits have to be removed from the previous equipment to the panel. Building is 178,000 sq ft, there’s no way I would do the job for that. As far as the repo job you mentioned, that’s crazy. Sounds like they just wanted revenge.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

With $20,000 at issue, one goes to court and compels the debtor to pay or surrender. (the machine)


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## Deadhead_84 (Apr 22, 2019)

Hey, just joined electriciantalk.com and read this whole thread. I just bid my first, very small, commercial job. Adding a couple rooms at a (legit!) massage/spa place, small bathroom too. I used a spreadsheet (free on Google Docs) to add up every piece of material, adding extras the inspector may want. Added 30% on materials which can be justified for several reasons, but easiest being a warranty on your work of some kind. Largest guess was total man hours, but it's just me so if I gotta work extra hours it won't technically cost me anything. Added sales tax and cost of permit. We'll see if I get the job! Any update on this one?


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## Mcastrechino (Jul 18, 2019)

Curious if anyone is willing to share their prices for the dollar general jobs. All new electrical, what you’ve charged or what you bid and didn’t get it? I bid this morning and first larger commercial bid. It’s quite time consuming & I havent a clue If it’s appropriate.


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