# Beautiful Quality Workmanship



## macmikeman

I don't see any code violations........... So pass...........:thumbsup:


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## dronai

macmikeman said:


> I don't see any code violations........... So pass...........:thumbsup:


Fugly


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## macmikeman

Fugly is nothing. Code is everything. Pass.


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## telsa

This project went sideways.

1) Such a tight fit means that it's impractical if not impossible for a field tech to troubleshoot.

2) Any future upgrades// device swaps are out of the question. They'd have to fit like a glove.


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## bill39

For this project, I'd be willing to bet there is a memo, email, or spec somewhere that says there is only so much room for the electrical panel and the system integrator/panel builder made it fit. 

I would hate to try and troubleshoot anything in it.


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## Cow

From what I can see, their only mistake was using too small of a box to fit some wire duct in.

Wire duct would clean that right up.


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## dronai

bill39 said:


> For this project, I'd be willing to bet there is a memo, email, or spec somewhere that says there is only so much room for the electrical panel and the system integrator/panel builder made it fit.
> 
> I would hate to try and troubleshoot anything in it.


No, he just hired the wrong guy on round one. He said he has to eat that cost



Cow said:


> From what I can see, their only mistake was using too small of a box to fit some wire duct in.
> 
> Wire duct would clean that right up.


Yes, and that's the plan if he can open that tight wallet of his.... And it is not numbered, and the schematic is not from this country


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## MechanicalDVR

bill39 said:


> For this project, I'd be willing to bet there is a memo, email, or spec somewhere that says there is only so much room for the electrical panel and the system integrator/panel builder made it fit.
> 
> I would hate to try and troubleshoot anything in it.



These limited space type situations often end up with a deeper enclosure with a hinged door to create a second mounting board that further complicates troubleshooting.


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## dronai

How many hours to rebuild in a new enclosure ? I already bid, just curious what you guys would give.


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## LuckyLuke

Somehow I think at least one component in there doesn't meet manufacturer specifications for mounting distances. That will be one hot little box that's for sure.


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## Bird dog

Forward thinking engineers seems to be an oxymoron like military intelligence.


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## macmikeman

There is too much fancy electronics stuff in there. Toss all that and just use a few ice cube relays and maybe a second hand contractor salvaged from a Trane package ac you hauled off a roof.


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## splatz

dronai said:


> How many hours to rebuild in a new enclosure ? I already bid, just curious what you guys would give.


I am going to throw out an answer with the disclaimer I'm awful at eyeballing this kind of thing and pulling an accurate time estimate out of the air. I can't really see the detail in the picture that well. I'd push for T&M and usually get it. 

I'd figure only about 8 hours to remove it, assemble it, and reinstall it, plus the cost of a bigger enclosure and some DIN rail and slotted duct. 

But that's just the tip of the iceberg, I'd test it as built, reverse engineer the wiring diagram and schematic, ID and document the components and if possible test the components, possibly upgrade questionable choices like those power supplies, install and commission / test the new and improved cabinet. 

So that's a minimum of two days work, really more like three days likely if any issues are encountered along the way, and if I had to make a fixed price I'd go higher to cover my ass.


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## macmikeman

macmikeman said:


> There is too much fancy electronics stuff in there. Toss all that and just use a few ice cube relays and maybe a second hand contractor salvaged from a Trane package ac you hauled off a roof.


For years I worked hand in hand with an AC contractor who used to do lots and lots of replacement work. Very often we would pull six or seven ac's off a roof and replace the same morning. Also very often there would be new components inside those ac's due to recent repairs made keeping them alive and working till the replacement. Such as - contactors, phase relays, soft starts, you name it. They always allowed me to sort thru and snag anything I cared to keep before they hauled it all off to the dump.


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## dronai

splatz said:


> I am going to throw out an answer with the disclaimer I'm awful at eyeballing this kind of thing and pulling an accurate time estimate out of the air. I can't really see the detail in the picture that well. I'd push for T&M and usually get it.
> 
> I'd figure only about 8 hours to remove it, assemble it, and reinstall it, plus the cost of a bigger enclosure and some DIN rail and slotted duct.
> 
> But that's just the tip of the iceberg, I'd test it as built, reverse engineer the wiring diagram and schematic, ID and document the components and if possible test the components, possibly upgrade questionable choices like those power supplies, install and commission / test the new and improved cabinet.
> 
> So that's a minimum of two days work, really more like three days likely if any issues are encountered along the way, and if I had to make a fixed price I'd go higher to cover my ass.


I have a couple days in there, and he didn't email back yet, so I think he's still shopping for a bargain again  It works now, but everything has to be taken out, and reinstalled in the new enclosure. He wants the fabricator to do that part, and he wants to furnish the new enclosure. But I don't want to give all the spec for what I want, unless I get a deposit. Yeah, I am not going to make new drawings, I'll just include his. The problem is reading them.


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## dronai

macmikeman said:


> For years I worked hand in hand with an AC contractor who used to do lots and lots of replacement work. Very often we would pull six or seven ac's off a roof and replace the same morning. Also very often there would be new components inside those ac's due to recent repairs made keeping them alive and working till the replacement. Such as - contactors, phase relays, soft starts, you name it. They always allowed me to sort thru and snag anything I cared to keep before they hauled it all off to the dump.


I do the same, scavage thru all the usuable parts. I have a storage full. I even have an replacement single phase generator altenator, that is brand new, but the guy needed a 3 phase winding, and I swapped on the same engine.


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## sparky970

It is even listed?


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## Going_Commando

dronai said:


> I do the same, scavage thru all the usuable parts. I have a storage full. I even have an replacement single phase generator altenator, that is brand new, but the guy needed a 3 phase winding, and I swapped on the same engine.


We have sooooo many spare used parts that cycle through our shop. Some are stupid and useless, and others (like NEMA starters) are god sends. We live in a geographical anomaly where it takes 2-3 days to get anything control related, so that stock is a real life saver. We can at least cob something together with our stock to get the customer going again to then order the correct parts and repair it at our and their earliest convenience. We also keep a fair amount of new stuff in stock, just to try to cover our bases.


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## dronai

sparky970 said:


> It is even listed?


Oh hell no !


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## John Valdes

Dorian. Did the first guy draw a schematic?
If so just get an enclosure that's at least twice that size and re-use all the devices and the drive.
Just use new wire and use his drawing. ( If it worked properly).

Looking back at the picture I see no numbers on wires and no numbers on the terminal blocks. Still could be a real easy job if the guy actually drew it out before he built the panel. I doubt he did from the looks of it.

If you gotta start from scratch and do it right, you will need to take into account the drawing you MUST make. FIRST!
Then you must be certain it works on paper before taking it to the panel.
Then you gotta see how much the new enclosure is.

Everything is new in there so you can use everything and since the wires are not marked you could possibly reuse most of them.
Just gut it, use parts in new enclosure and wire to schematic.

For the record: I have seen much worse from OEM's. But at least the OEM will provide a drawing.

I have no idea how to put a price on that. That's why I always worked for other people.


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## dronai

John Valdes said:


> Dorian. Did the first guy draw a schematic?
> If so just get an enclosure that's at least twice that size and re-use all the devices and the drive.
> Just use new wire and use his drawing. ( If it worked properly).
> 
> Looking back at the picture I see no numbers on wires and no numbers on the terminal blocks. Still could be a real easy job if the guy actually drew it out before he built the panel. I doubt he did from the looks of it.
> 
> If you gotta start from scratch and do it right, you will need to take into account the drawing you MUST make. FIRST!
> Then you must be certain it works on paper before taking it to the panel.
> Then you gotta see how much the new enclosure is.
> 
> Everything is new in there so you can use everything and since the wires are not marked you could possibly reuse most of them.
> Just gut it, use parts in new enclosure and wire to schematic.
> 
> For the record: I have seen much worse from OEM's. But at least the OEM will provide a drawing.
> 
> I have no idea how to put a price on that. That's why I always worked for other people.


You probably skipped all the posts, but it explains all that you asked. This job has no money, and is of no interest to me


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## Jlarson

That's a lot of crap for like 2 timers, 5 relays and a safety module. :laughing:

If you could loose those stupid power bricks it could have been done in that enclosure just fine probably.


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## JRaef

That's a Murphy Box: a set of component failures just waiting for the most inopportune time to take place.

WAAAY too much in that box, and I seriously doubt those LED drivers are rated for even 40C, let alone whatever temp THAT mess is going to get to...


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## dronai

JRaef said:


> That's a Murphy Box: a set of component failures just waiting for the most inopportune time to take place.
> 
> WAAAY too much in that box, and I seriously doubt those LED drivers are rated for even 40C, let alone whatever temp THAT mess is going to get to...


The Indian man got a little irritated when I told him I can't "just clean Up the wiring, and number it"


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## John Valdes

dronai said:


> The Indian man got a little irritated when I told him I can't "just clean Up the wiring, and number it"


Should have told him that thinking is what got him ****ed to start with.


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