# Trade school vs Apprenticeship



## Rora

For what it's worth, I went through a 2 year trade school for I&C and by the time I was finished I could pass journeyman level exams even if I didn't know half of the finer hands-on procedures. I don't say that to mean it's the right choice for you, but to say that when you're doing theory and labs all day, you're exposed to a lot more material in a concentrated fashion. Perhaps even more-so than a 4-year program, the education is whatever you make of it, if you apply yourself it will give you a very accelerated exposure to many things that you may have otherwise had to pick up here or there in the field over a longer period.

I found trade school very valuable, with the disclaimer that I&C is a lot more theory driven than straight electrical. At the end of the day you will still need to learn all the hands-on procedures that may or may not be taught in your trade program... so while something like this may prepare you for a higher level of "understanding", it may require skipping over basic procedures that a 2nd or even 1st year apprentice would find commonplace, in order to accelerate your exposure to different concepts. This was my experienced with the non-compulsory trade of I&C and may not apply to electrical, so hopefully someone who's gone to trade school for that can weigh in.

What I ended up doing was going through an apprenticeship anyways after graduation... so in my mind, the question is really more like "would you want to bolster your future career with trade school" rather than considering it a replacement for an apprenticeship, because it is not. Considering it's free for you, the question is simply a matter of whether you want to push your career back 2 years so you can go into the field with a better mental toolbelt... and obviously you want to do your due diligence to ensure the program you go through is a quality one that will give you something valuable (read the curriculum and run it by experienced people, make sure you have a good idea whether outcomes like passing the EC exam are valuable, etc).


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## sparkiez

Rora said:


> For what it's worth, I went through a 2 year trade school for I&C and by the time I was finished I could pass journeyman level exams even if I didn't know half of the finer hands-on procedures. I don't say that to mean it's the right choice for you, but to say that when you're doing theory and labs all day, you're exposed to a lot more material in a concentrated fashion. Perhaps even more-so than a 4-year program, the education is whatever you make of it, if you apply yourself it will give you a very accelerated exposure to many things that you may have otherwise had to pick up here or there in the field over a longer period.
> 
> I found trade school very valuable, with the disclaimer that I&C is a lot more theory driven than straight electrical. At the end of the day you will still need to learn all the hands-on procedures that may or may not be taught in your trade program... so while something like this may prepare you for a higher level of "understanding", it may require skipping over basic procedures that a 2nd or even 1st year apprentice would find commonplace, in order to accelerate your exposure to different concepts. This was my experienced with the non-compulsory trade of I&C and may not apply to electrical, so hopefully someone who's gone to trade school for that can weigh in.
> 
> What I ended up doing was going through an apprenticeship anyways after graduation... so in my mind, the question is really more like "would you want to bolster your future career with trade school" rather than considering it a replacement for an apprenticeship, because it is not. Considering it's free for you, the question is simply a matter of whether you want to push your career back 2 years so you can go into the field with a better mental toolbelt... and obviously you want to do your due diligence to ensure the program you go through is a quality one that will give you something valuable (read the curriculum and run it by experienced people, make sure you have a good idea whether outcomes like passing the EC exam are valuable, etc).


I couldn't have said this better myself. I started out doing industrial and machine control with a degree in mechatronics and then got my journeyman's license.

Went into the trade with a very strong grasp of theory, but struggled with the work. Honestly, if you want to spend 6 years in school, I would get an engineering degree, otherwise the apprentice program would be the way to go with supplementary college classes. I bet at that trade school program they would let you take a class or two.


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## John Valdes

Welcome to the forum.


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## Rora

sparkiez said:


> I couldn't have said this better myself. I started out doing industrial and machine control with a degree in mechatronics and then got my journeyman's license.
> 
> Went into the trade with a very strong grasp of theory, but struggled with the work. Honestly, if you want to spend 6 years in school, I would get an engineering degree, otherwise the apprentice program would be the way to go with supplementary college classes. I bet at that trade school program they would let you take a class or two.


Agreed... I think it comes down to learning style. Some people are the type to learn theory then apply (in labs, then in the field, picking up the practical aspects in between) and some will learn the theory as it's implied through hands-on experience. For the former, trade school is a short cut from having to piece together what's going on over years of experience, for the latter, trade school might seem frustrating because they want to get busy and learn the theory, wherever necessary, as they go along.


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## brian john

First off almost NOTHING is free, someone somewhere is paying for this.

Now, from my expierence (48 years as an electrician) hard to beat a decent apprenticeship. 

ALL the helpers I have had from Trade Schools were just that helpers and in their case out of pocket big bucks.

As an apprentice in the union, you will be earning a paycheck, health care, retirement. 

In a trade school, you will be earning butt time.


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## MechanicalDVR

First off, welcome aboard @l8ishop!

Secondly, a proper apprenticeship is ALWAYS the way to go.


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## svh19044

Here I was, about to make a thread about my disappointment in trade school graduates when I read the thread title. It's impossible to get anything more than a helper out of a trade school. They have what amounts to ZERO real world experience and might as well started out with zero knowledge in the field. Think about that, you paid for 2 years of education only to become a helper. You could have done that without going to school. Quite frankly, I'm seriously disappointed in what I've seen come out of trade schools and the lack of real world knowledge, down to how to use a drill. It's not their fault, it's the school. These students are being fleeced out of money.

Give me someone with 2 years real world experience over 2 years trade school any day. One with both would certainly be preferable. If given the choice of one or the other, 10 out of 10 times, I'd suggest the apprenticeship.


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## l8ishop

Thank you so much for the input.
I thought I remember reading that you can shave off some years of the apprenticeship with experience. Obviously that would be at the locals discretion but does anyone have experience with that? 



I think I want to go apprenticeship but the trade school would work much better with my current setup, GI bill, daily schedule, etc. But I'm 30 and would rather not delay my career change more than I have to. :/


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## sparkiez

l8ishop said:


> Thank you so much for the input.
> I thought I remember reading that you can shave off some years of the apprenticeship with experience. Obviously that would be at the locals discretion but does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think I want to go apprenticeship but the trade school would work much better with my current setup, GI bill, daily schedule, etc. But I'm 30 and would rather not delay my career change more than I have to. :/


In that case, go with the apprenticeship. You are going to be studying things in class while going to work and getting that repetition and hands-on in a safe and supervised situation. The only reason that I graduated trade school with ability is that I was going to classes during the day, then working second shift in a control systems department putting all that knowledge to use. Just studying it does nothing, you need to be in the real world actually doing it (not in some lab) to get a handle on the nuance and technique involved. Essentially, I used the trade school my own apprentice program.

I bring this up to reinforce the notion that you should take the hard route and go with an apprenticeship, get paid good money while you do it, and come out a Jman with all the perks and pay involved. That will be your shortest route to your biggest meal ticket.

It is also of note that my trade school was at a public community college and the entire program was less than 10k, and that included a lot of gen ed classes I took towards my engineering degree. If it is a private trade school then no freaking way. They charge like 30-50k and don't even give you a leg up.


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## Dan the electricman

l8ishop said:


> Thank you so much for the input.
> I thought I remember reading that you can shave off some years of the apprenticeship with experience. Obviously that would be at the locals discretion but does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> I think I want to go apprenticeship but the trade school would work much better with my current setup, GI bill, daily schedule, etc. But I'm 30 and would rather not delay my career change more than I have to. :/


Keep in mind that many states require you work a certain number of hours of electrical work (as a helper or apprentice) before you can take the 
journeyman test. Here in CO it's 8000 hours (about 4 years). You also have to have some classroom hours (about 300).

The trade school route seems silly to me.


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## nrp3

Typically you work your apprenticeship during the day with a couple of nights a week for the four years to get educational hours in.


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## Rora

Wall of text incoming (something to consider when posting here is that when you share your experience it helps not only the people on the forum but people who Google stuff like this and end up here)

I agree with what many of you are saying about preferring an apprenticeship... I would strongly advise most people to do an apprenticeship since a person is getting paid to learn and start learning valuable hard skills directly on the job, and learning them right off the bat without having to really think about it. I wanted to share my experience to say that it's not always a bad idea, trade school has worked out very well for me, with a few caveats.



svh19044 said:


> Quite frankly, I'm seriously disappointed in what I've seen come out of trade schools and the lack of real world knowledge, down to how to use a drill. It's not their fault, it's the school. These students are being fleeced out of money.


I don't doubt that many trade schools are of questionable value and a good reason to be very careful about what school a person might be considering. The school I went to is highly regarded by provincial employers and the education was high caliber due to the larger employers dumping millions into it. However, it's hard for me to recommend it to most new students, since I had previous technical experience and was able to approach the material knowing that I would need to apply everything on a practical level some day. This ended up working well for me and I've had a few co-workers say they had assumed I was a journeyman once they found out I was still working on my apprenticeship. For every student like me, there was 100 who wouldn't know how to use a drill, so to speak... but I don't think that's the schools fault. I would have been a little disappointed if they had spent time in class teaching basic skills that could be learned on Youtube. There were a lot of students who were simply not prepared to absorb the information who would have probably done well to go the apprenticeship route.

A lot of these students (most fresh out of highschool) didn't really seem to get what or why they were doing something--they were content with completing labs by treating it like a recipe to follow and never "learned to cook", ask questions, or try to really consider how the material would eventually apply in the field, etc. which is, frankly, useless, since the real world doesn't present problems to you in nice, neat little lab guides. Many of them were only there because of the high pay that was reported, didn't really have passion for it and so didn't really try to apply the material. I suspect this is most of the type of person you are seeing coming out of trade schools, who expected everything to be spoon fed to them, whereas you're unlikely to find apprentices like that since they would wash out, as they're paid employees rather than paying students.

Considering all this, anyone thinking about trade school should be very careful to see if the program is a legitimate education, that takes such form because the curriculum makes more sense condensed into a 2 year format of mixed theory and lab... and not just a diploma or certification mill (which are more common than people think!) They would also be wise to consider whether they're willing to take responsibility for their own education and be realistic about what they're going to accomplish for themselves with the material they're being taught.



l8ishop said:


> Thank you so much for the input.
> I thought I remember reading that you can shave off some years of the apprenticeship with experience. Obviously that would be at the locals discretion but does anyone have experience with that?
> 
> I think I want to go apprenticeship but the trade school would work much better with my current setup, GI bill, daily schedule, etc. But I'm 30 and would rather not delay my career change more than I have to. :/


For what it's worth, that was the case for me. I had 1800 hours knocked off my apprenticeship (this is quite a conservative number considering how much time I spent in school... I suspect only lab time was credited) and was allowed to challenge yearly exams without having to attend the classroom training, so I was accruing more hours instead of the 8-10 weeks of classroom time. I worked a lot of overtime and, had it been solely based on hours, would have completed my ticket earlier than I would have if I had done the apprenticeship route from day 1, by about three months, but there is a minimum amount that must pass in order to advance through the levels. Factoring that in, in my case the total time to get a ticket from starting school is about 5 years... that is at a grueling pace, but in exchange I left with engineering level knowledge that has been valuable to me since I apply it not only to work but also personal projects which advance my skills into areas that neither trade school or an apprenticeship will teach. So again, not really useful for someone who doesn't have deep personal interest in their work and/or doesn't bother taking responsibility for their education by teaching themselves.

I would not take this into account for your situation though, since the school had standard agreements with the apprenticeship board and even then it still felt fairly off the beaten path when dealing with apprenticeship board (if I had to call in, many people were completely unaware of such agreements, my employer was very unfamiliar with it as well). If I had been dealing with locals rather than government regulated apprenticeship, I would feel even more tentative about whether I'd really be able to get ahead that way.


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## nrp3

The education part becomes a part of the trade itself, the books, the continuing education, the education requirements for the apprenticeship itself, product training and certification, generators as an example. It is part of the process and you want to do it in a way that allows you to progress and not cost you any more money or time than necessary. It will always be there and is a part of most any job. It was when I was flying planes, it still is for electrical. New ones as I work on my gas license.


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## l8ishop

Rora said:


> Considering all this, anyone thinking about trade school should be very careful to see if the program is a legitimate education, that takes such form because the curriculum makes more sense condensed into a 2 year format of mixed theory and lab... and not just a diploma or certification mill (which are more common than people think!) They would also be wise to consider whether they're willing to take responsibility for their own education and be realistic about what they're going to accomplish for themselves with the material they're being taught.


So how would you weed out the illegitimate programs? I've looked at the curriculum and apart from offering roughly 2 courses in a variety of different electrical fields, I don't really know what I'm looking for. It's a community college and I've been there before prior to military service so I don't think it's a degree/cert mill but haven't looked into their technical programs at all. I feel like asking the school/program managers directly would be a little biased in their replies. I find it hard to believe anyone in charge of enrollment would talk poorly of their own program.


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## Rora

l8ishop said:


> So how would you weed out the illegitimate programs? I've looked at the curriculum and apart from offering roughly 2 courses in a variety of different electrical fields, I don't really know what I'm looking for. It's a community college and I've been there before prior to military service so I don't think it's a degree/cert mill but haven't looked into their technical programs at all. I feel like asking the school/program managers directly would be a little biased in their replies. I find it hard to believe anyone in charge of enrollment would talk poorly of their own program.


I don't mean to scare you with mentions of cert/diploma mills, just mean to stress that you'll spend a lot of time and resources trying to get an education there and it's definitely worth making sure it's worth all of that... but if you're absolutely certain you want to go through trade school, you're on the right path of thinking if you're considering that it's a community college as a sign of legitimacy. Another, in that case, would be state or federal accreditation of said college, whether they have a decent amount of conventional programs with the ability to transfer credits, etc. because it means they've been vetted by institutions with the time and resources to pay close attention to those kind of things.

In terms of curriculum, compare it to other places, ideally ones with a strong reputation... and on that matter, why this place, what makes it special? On that matter, you are right you can't get unbiased information from enrollment, however they can usually answer questions pretty reliably about the curriculum, perhaps the relevancy of the certification you mentioned, and that information is useful while making a comparison while digging into what place to choose.

Lastly is from word of mouth. This is easier if you live or know people in the local industry in order to find out how they compare. Google is also a great resource, especially if you can find forum discussions about it. Where I'm from, there are two major polytechnics and from word of mouth I learned that the school I went to was considered better than the other... which was why I went there (along with having a slightly stronger curriculum) and the employer perception turned out to be true once I was working in the industry.

If you have the chance, absolutely do not hesitate to visit the facilities and possibly ask for a tour of the department... ask a lot of questions, talk to students, check out the quality of the training equipment (that gives you an idea of how much has been invested in the program which indicates that it's serious/successful)


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## nrp3

If it hasn’t been mentioned, find out the requirements for apprenticeship, what if any licensing there is and the hours to get there for both work hours and education before you commit to anything. Make sure whatever schooling you do meets whatever state or local requirements there are.


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## stiffneck

brian john said:


> First off almost NOTHING is free, someone somewhere is paying for this.
> 
> Now, from my expierence (48 years as an electrician) hard to beat a decent apprenticeship.
> 
> ALL the helpers I have had from Trade Schools were just that helpers and in their case out of pocket big bucks.
> 
> As an apprentice in the union, you will be earning a paycheck, health care, retirement.
> 
> In a trade school, you will be earning butt time.



IBEW apprenticeships are based on Nepotism. Why do some of you continue to deny this? Was there a recent change in hiring practices? Would U like some St. Louis _style_ examples?
From my 34years of experience, schools don't care who your Father, Grandfather, Uncle, Great Uncle is, or who your local Democrat Committeeman, Cit-ay Alderman, County Councilman is. With Local-1, having "connections" with a Democrat State Senator makes you smart :yes:


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## stiffneck

l8ishop said:


> So how would you weed out the illegitimate programs? I've looked at the curriculum and apart from offering roughly 2 courses in a variety of different electrical fields, I don't really know what I'm looking for. It's a community college and I've been there before prior to military service so I don't think it's a degree/cert mill but haven't looked into their technical programs at all. I feel like asking the school/program managers directly would be a little biased in their replies. I find it hard to believe anyone in charge of enrollment would talk poorly of their own program.



This is how I got my start in the Electrical Industry; www.ranken.edu 
Ranken has been turning out graduates for over 100 years, from the same location for over 100 years.
Used to be NCA "North Central College Accredited" now it's www.hlcommission.org.
Take your time a choose wisely, lots of "Schools" out there, not all of them are worth it.


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## stiffneck

brian john said:


> First off almost NOTHING is free, someone somewhere is paying for this.
> 
> Now, from my expierence (48 years as an electrician) hard to beat a decent apprenticeship.
> 
> ALL the helpers I have had from Trade Schools were just that helpers and in their case out of pocket big bucks.
> 
> As an apprentice in the union, you will be earning a paycheck, health care, retirement.
> 
> In a trade school, you will be earning butt time.



Here at St. Louis International Airport Electric Shop, we just got our 6th Local-1 Journeyman in the last 10 years. FPNote-1; 3 of them have left over the years, for various reasons. This latest jy is a 54 year old Democrat Operative who falls in line with the Hillary Clinton type. As opposed to the Bernie Sanders type. He is better than me when it comes to bending pipe. Was very familiar with our Greenly Triple Nickle, a "most excellent piece of equipment", which I also know how to use. But when it comes to sticking a meter in his hands, even my old basic Fluke 77, very dangerous.


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## Journey 2 Master

In 2 years apprenticing you'll learn far more by wearing tools than you ever will in a 2-year trade-school program. The sweet spot would be if you could land an apprenticeship and work days, then go to school in the evenings. Best of both worlds. The classroom setting can be really helpful to expand your real-world knowledge...and working in the real-world will help classroom concepts sink in. But I would never replace a 2 year trade-school program for a 2-year hands-on apprenticeship.


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## Going_Commando

I did a 2-year full time trade school, then still had 3 years of apprenticeship after that for work experience (NH at the time didn't count any time I worked during my schooling as work experience, because they applied 2000 hours of work experience due to going to trade school). I worked part time during the week when I didn't have class, and worked full time over the summer, but I was amazed at how little I actually knew once I got into the field. Now, I am super thankful for the theory and classroom time I had, as the knowledge base it gave me has been a huge boon. The field stuff you learn from doing, but man, being able to apply the theory when troubleshooting or working on new stuff.

It is not practical to jump from trade school to being alone as a field guy. You need the apprenticeship to learn how to do things in different environments and conditions. You can't put a price on real world experience.


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## Bpittman85

brian john said:


> First off almost NOTHING is free, someone somewhere is paying for this.
> 
> Now, from my expierence (48 years as an electrician) hard to beat a decent apprenticeship.
> 
> ALL the helpers I have had from Trade Schools were just that helpers and in their case out of pocket big bucks.
> 
> As an apprentice in the union, you will be earning a paycheck, health care, retirement.
> 
> In a trade school, you will be earning butt time.


He paid for it with his military service


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