# Offset Screwdrivers



## Schreck (Jun 10, 2011)

Does anyone use them? I've heard they supposedly save a lot of time (it was a master electrician telling me this), but I've never found any good use for them. They don't put things on with enough tightness for my liking, so I just carry my standard screwdrivers.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I use mine all day long. Installing devices & cover plates, mostly. 90% faster.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think I bought one back in 1996 or 1997. I still haven't used it. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

They're also great for checking for obstructions when cutting in a box or remodel can.




Peter D said:


> I think I bought one back in 1996 or 1997. I still haven't used it. :no:


You need to actually do work in order to use one.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> They're also great for checking for obstructions when cutting in a box or remodel can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Work? What's that? :blink:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm actually thinking about posting a tutorial here on how to install an old work/cut in box without marking up the wall with a sharpie. The off-set screw driver is a very important part of this process.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Work? What's that? :blink:


I'm not sure. I have a feeling I'm going to find out on Monday....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> .......... without marking up the wall with a sharpie. ..........


Does using a pencil count?





Peter D said:


> Work? What's that? :blink:


What you do when you use a map and a shovel.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Does using a pencil count?


There is never a reason to draw on the wall with anything when installing a cut in box.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

How does an offset screwdriver save time or help with a cut in box?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> There is never a reason to draw on the wall with anything when installing a cut in box.


Okay, I'll bite. What do you know that I don't? I've always located the studs, matched existing heights, unless in plaster and wood lathe, traced box, cut hole, installed box.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

tkb said:


> How does an offset screwdriver save time or help with a cut in box?


lol....... Thats not what they are talking about


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

tkb said:


> How does an offset screwdriver save time or help with a cut in box?


That's a hacks' offset. This is a pro's:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Okay, I'll bite. What do you know that I don't? I've always located the studs, matched existing heights, unless in plaster and wood lathe, traced box, cut hole, installed box.


He just holds the cut in box to the wall.. and kicks it into the wall like a boss.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's a hacks' offset. This is a pro's:


Pros dont use klein


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> There is never a reason to draw on the wall with anything when installing a cut in box.



Anyone can score the wall with a nail, screw, awl, drywall saw, utility knife, screwdriver, etc.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Okay, I'll bite. What do you know that I don't? I've always located the studs, matched existing heights, unless in plaster and wood lathe, traced box, cut hole, installed box.


Why would you draw on the wall? Use an offset as Ken has posted and drill one little ¼" hole in the wall. Spin that bitch around to find obstructions. Then from that little hole you saw horizontally in both directions checking the dimension with the box until your cool the do the same vertically. No marking required.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> He just holds the cut in box to the wall.. and kicks it into the wall like a boss.


Like a boss?

:notworthy:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

That takes to much ****ing around. Find center of the box, put a hole to make sure youre not cutting into a stud, mark it and cut it, wire it up and gtfo.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That takes to much ****ing around. Find center of the box, put a hole to make sure youre not cutting into a stud, mark it and cut it, wire it up and gtfo.


You live in a perfect world. Again, if you feel the need to draw on a wall to install a box, you won't be on my crew for very long. Just absolutely unnecessary.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Why would you draw on the wall? Use an offset as Ken has posted and drill one little ¼" hole in the wall. Spin that bitch around to find obstructions. Then from that little hole you saw horizontally in both directions checking the dimension with the box until your cool the do the same vertically. No marking required.


Why would I? So I wouldn't have to keep checking. I'll put an 1/8" hole in the center of my desired location and take a piece of #12 solid and put a large enough bend onto it to clear any possible obstructions. If I'm clear, I'll level my box, outline, remove material and test fit. If it's a little tight, I'll take some more off. If it's plaster and wood lathe, I'll move the box height up or down depending where it falls on the lathes.

I use pencil, if it's a finished wall, I do so lightly. I don't touch finished surfaces with pen or Sharpie. To each their own really, but if I was caught using your method someone would say something.

You're not wrong and I'm not right, but this is how I was taught. I haven't been wrong yet so I have no reason to approach this situation any differently than I already do.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've got the strangest feeling that a bunch of professional, experienced, journeyman electricians really about to start a 22 page thread about how to properly cut in an old work box....

-John


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> I haven't been wrong yet


Hence the name " thegoldenenboy". Good luck with that.



Big John said:


> I've got the strangest feeling that a bunch of professional, experienced, journeyman electricians really about to start a 22 page thread about how to properly cut in an old work box....
> 
> -John


You may be right, but I stand by my statement that there is absolutely no reason to mark up walls before you cut.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, so whataya do? Hold the box on the wall, level it, and use your laservision to burn the hole?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Hence the name " thegoldenenboy". Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be right, but I stand by my statement that there is absolutely no reason to mark up walls before you cut.


I'm failing to see the link between the alias that I chose to go by on ET and the effectiveness of the method that I have been taught and choose to employ when cutting in an old work wall case. 

Oh wait, there isn't one. :huh:

When I say I haven't been wrong in my approach, I haven't. I've never had to relocate a box once it's outlined, I've never landed in an obstruction.

So thank you for the well wishes in my continued success with my preferred method and I hope you the best with yours.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> I'm failing to see the link between the alias that I chose to go by on ET and the effectiveness of the method that I have been taught and choose to employ when cutting in an old work wall case.
> 
> Oh wait, there isn't one. :huh:
> 
> ...


I'll call shenanigans on this one.

You either don't cut in many boxes, or you're using a IR camera. Please don't try to tell us you have *never* run into a duct, pipe, gas line, c-vac, vent, wires, etc.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You live in a perfect world. Again, if you feel the need to draw on a wall to install a box, you won't be on my crew for very long. Just absolutely unnecessary.


Thats ok with me. I like being the boss, right where I am.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'll call shenanigans on this one.
> 
> You either don't cut in many boxes, or you're using a IR camera. Please don't try to tell us you have *never* run into a duct, pipe, gas line, c-vac, vent, wires, etc.


Yeah, I agree.. SHT happens - and it has nothing to do with there being a stupid ass line on the wall or not.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'll call shenanigans on this one.
> 
> You either don't cut in many boxes, or you're using a IR camera. Please don't try to tell us you have *never* run into a duct, pipe, gas line, c-vac, vent, wires, etc.


I didn't say I've never run into obstructions, I certainly have but I've never cut the hole for the box without being damn sure there is nothing behind it. I said I've never had to relocate a box once I've committed to that location.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> I didn't say I've never run into obstructions, I certainly have but I've never cut the hole for the box without being damn sure there is nothing behind it. I said I've never had to relocate a box once I've committed to that location.


never this, never that.. its going to happen to you monday. :chinese::chinese::chinese: :chinese::chinese::chinese:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That's a hacks' offset. This is a pro's:


Looks like a waste of time and money to me.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> never this, never that.. its going to happen to you monday. :chinese::chinese::chinese::chinese::chinese::chinese::chinese:


I was just thinking that. :laughing: I've made my fair share of blunders but I've got a pretty good streak going on with cut ins, so far.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

tkb said:


> Looks like a waste of time and money to me.


I use both of mine all the time. The best tool for a job is never a waste of time or money.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> That's a hacks' offset. This is a pro's:


I switched to one of these for device installs. As you can see, it's smaller too!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

tkb said:


> Looks like a waste of time and money to me.









You can waste all the time you want compared to a regular screwdriver. I'm beating feet to the next box.



And please don't tell me your cordless is faster. You still need to haul it into the job site, lug the dumb thing around, charge & change batteries, dig around the case and put the bit in it.... Or are you conveniently forgetting about all that?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> I switched to one of these for device installs. As you can see, it's smaller too!



I've tried those, but they're so incredibly.......  s.......  l.......  o.......  w....... .


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You can waste all the time you want compared to a regular screwdriver. I'm beating feet to the next box.
> 
> 
> 
> And please don't tell me your cordless is faster. You still need to haul it into the job site, lug the dumb thing around, charge & change batteries, dig around the case and put the bit in it.... Or are you conveniently forgetting about all that?


I only lug the collapsible garbage can around. The receptacles, swtches, cordless, strippers and wall plates go on my cart. I didn't say it was faster, I said " I switched to one of these"


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Schreck said:


> Does anyone use them? I've heard they supposedly save a lot of time (it was a master electrician telling me this), but I've never found any good use for them. They don't put things on with enough tightness for my liking, so I just carry my standard screwdrivers.


I have never seen those in NZ, is the handle fixed or does it spin freely? Like cranking a fishing reel?


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

tkb said:


> How does an offset screwdriver save time or help with a cut in box?


 


:laughing:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Big John said:


> I've got the strangest feeling that a bunch of professional, experienced, journeyman electricians really about to start a 22 page thread about how to properly cut in an old work box....
> 
> -John


 

Yes, another version of the Mr. Obvious show!


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

I got one of those screwdrivers when I was a green apprentice and it sucked. Haven't picked it up since, gimmicky crap IMO, I can put on devices just fine and plenty fast with a normal one


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

I have one of those offset screwdrivers, great for getting to screws behind an obstruction.


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## keithbussanich (Apr 3, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> Like a boss?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

chewy said:


> I have never seen those in NZ, is the handle fixed or does it spin freely? Like cranking a fishing reel?


The handle spins freely so you can turn screws way faster than a normal screwdriver.

I have one with a slot tip, which is awesome for coverplates. Thinking of getting a #1 Robertson offset for devices.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> The handle spins freely so you can turn screws way faster than a normal screwdriver.
> 
> I have one with a slot tip, which is awesome for coverplates. Thinking of getting a #1 Robertson offset for devices.


Awesome, Id grab a #1 robertson and a phillips for plates and cage nuts if I ever saw them. I wonder why they never took off over here.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I bought a cabinet tip.

Totally worth it, lighter than a drill, awesome for plating.

I worked with Gold's partner and that guy was a speed demon with them. I picked one up right after that. But I haven't touched it since I've gotten out of residential.


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## chrisfnl (Sep 13, 2010)

tkb said:


> How does an offset screwdriver save time or help with a cut in box?


Isn't that what an off-set screwdriver is? If someone was to ask me for an off-set screwdriver, that is what they would get... and if they said "No, that's not an off-set screwdriver, get me an offset screw driver", I'd shrug, take it back, walk 10 feet away, and huck it at the back of their head. Why? Because that is an offset screwdriver. They're the wonderful sort of things that you buy once, throw in a tool box, they sit there for years, unused, but one day... when you finally need one, you REALLY need one...


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

The best thing about off-set screwdrivers is the look on some customers faces when they're seeing one for the first time. I think electricians must be the only trade that uses them.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Off set screwdriver, best out of the clinch tool. When your drill runs out and your apprentice puts a dead battery back in the case, go for the offset. A true master of the tool uses flathead.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Wait a minute, we are talking about the speedy, the one hand held, Klein offset screwdriver. The one you love to watch new guys use?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Bg fire systms 4life said:


> Wait a minute, we are talking about the speedy, the one hand held, Klein offset screwdriver. The one you love to watch new guys use?


Yes, despite what the smartasses are saying.

Klein calls it a rapidriver or something.


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## Eclectic Electric (Jun 18, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You live in a perfect world. Again, if you feel the need to draw on a wall to install a box, you won't be on my crew for very long. Just absolutely unnecessary.


I can't figure out your logic. 

It takes literally 2 seconds to trace around a box. It takes a lot longer to continually bring the box up to check your hole to see if it's the correct size. Your way sounds very hackish, I can't see why you would fire a guy for doing something professionally.

As for me, when I cut out a gem box, I first use my magnet to check for studs. I then cut a horizontal line across the wall at the height of the top of the box. If I hit a stud or any other object, I know to start cutting in the other direction. Once the cut is about the width of the box I then put the box to the wall and trace the other 3 sides, then cut them out. This way is fast, it works well, I never got into any trouble doing it, and it never got me fired.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bg fire systms 4life said:


> Wait a minute, we are talking about the speedy, the one hand held, Klein offset screwdriver. The one you love to watch new guys use?



I worked with a guy who called them "Weekie-Weeks". Because when they turn, they go _Week...... Week....... Week........._ :laughing:


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## Pompadour (Mar 19, 2011)

i have had my offset klein screwdriver for 15ish years. i would bet that i have only used it 20ish times. it is not something i keep in my work tools anymore.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chrisfnl said:


> Isn't that what an off-set screwdriver is? If someone was to ask me for an off-set screwdriver, that is what they would get... and if they said "No, that's not an off-set screwdriver, get me an offset screw driver", I'd shrug, take it back, walk 10 feet away, and huck it at the back of their head. Why? Because that is an offset screwdriver. They're the wonderful sort of things that you buy once, throw in a tool box, they sit there for years, unused, but one day... when you finally need one, you REALLY need one...


No, we are talking about the other kind. 
But I also carry this from Craftsman. They have 3 of them with different angles and take 1/4 bits. It's a ratcheting driver and gets you in close when needed.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I worked with a guy who called them "Weekie-Weeks". Because when they turn, they go Week...... Week....... Week......... :laughing:


LoL,, a "Weekie-Weeks"... 
I like that name for them.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Wirenuting said:


> No, we are talking about the other kind.
> But I also carry this from Craftsman. They have 3 of them with different angles and take 1/4 bits. It's a ratcheting driver and gets you in close when needed.


I have one of those too. They can be invaluable.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*Yankee*

I did have an offset screwdriver when I started. Good for cover plates.


Does anyone remember the "Yankee" screwdriver ?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dronai said:


> Does anyone remember the "Yankee" screwdriver ?


 I actually bought one for when I did residential trimouts. :thumbup:

-John


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> I have one of those too. They can be invaluable.


It's part of the basic package when I get out of the truck on a service call. I keep the bits in an old steel welders tip case. 
.
I still carry the Yankee screwdriver. It's an old Craftsman model # "F". But I made a tip so I can use my 1/4" bits.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> It's part of the basic package when I get out of the truck on a service call. I keep the bits in an old steel welders tip case.
> .
> I still carry the Yankee screwdriver. But I made a tip so I can use my 1/4" bits.


Why don't you carry a pogo stick.... it would be shorter. :whistling2:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

The only problem with the Yankee, is it took a little force, and if you slipped, you punched a hole in the drywall !

I think it was before cordless screw guns cameout.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Why don't you carry a pogo stick.... it would be shorter. :whistling2:


I broke my pogo years ago and the new one don't work very well.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dronai said:


> ..........I think it was before cordless screw guns cameout.


Yeah..... by about 125 years. :thumbsup:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Yeah..... by about 125 years. :thumbsup:


 
Ha ! 
1961 - 1962 - Black & Decker® introduced the world's first cordless electric drill; an innovation powered by self-contained nickel-cadmium cells. A cordless hedge trimmer and four additional cordless drills for professional use were added in 1962.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

dronai said:


> Ha !
> 1961 - 1962 - Black & Decker® introduced the world's first cordless electric drill; an innovation powered by self-contained nickel-cadmium cells. A cordless hedge trimmer and four additional cordless drills for professional use were added in 1962.



Ans this means......... what?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Just trivia bullsh..

Also, that I was 3 yrs old:tt2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Eclectic Electric said:


> I can't figure out your logic.
> 
> It takes literally 2 seconds to trace around a box. It takes a lot longer to continually bring the box up to check your hole to see if it's the correct size. Your way sounds very hackish, I can't see why you would fire a guy for doing something professionally.
> 
> As for me, when I cut out a gem box, I first use my magnet to check for studs. I then cut a horizontal line across the wall at the height of the top of the box. If I hit a stud or any other object, I know to start cutting in the other direction. Once the cut is about the width of the box I then put the box to the wall and trace the other 3 sides, then cut them out. This way is fast, it works well, I never got into any trouble doing it, and it never got me fired.


That's pretty much SOP for cutting in old work boxes. I wasn't aware of any other way, but you learn something new every day. :blink:

I bought one of those $5 Hanson magnets for lath and plaster walls. I didn't think it would work but it actually came in pretty handy. You still have to poke around a bit to get the exact stud location.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

Here's what I typically use for lv brackets and old work boxes.

I'll check for studs, mark it, cut it, if I'm not sure then I'll put a faint horizontal line and cut on that and move as needed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still waiting for Chris to post his super-fast method.


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## Eclectic Electric (Jun 18, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I'm still waiting for Chris to post his super-fast method.


He said earlier that he (and apparently all his men) just cuts a hole and continually brings the box up to it to see if it's the right size.

That's kinda like the trial and error way a 1st year apprentice bends pipe.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

I have notches cut into the edge of my torpedo level for an old work box. 
That is the fastest way that I have found to mark out an old work.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

those funny screwdrivers are not for me. if anyone is worried about the time it takes to screw in a screw then they need to rework their estimate to include screwing time. i hear the jokes coming already


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

The klein offset is the only way to go.
You will notice that the offset is dog-legged.
The ideal and others are a straight offset.

The klein allows you to have more flexibility while spinning the driver.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Eclectic Electric said:


> I can't figure out your logic.
> 
> It takes literally 2 seconds to trace around a box. It takes a lot longer to continually bring the box up to check your hole to see if it's the correct size. Your way sounds very hackish, I can't see why you would fire a guy for doing something professionally.
> 
> As for me, when I cut out a gem box, I first use my magnet to check for studs. I then cut a horizontal line across the wall at the height of the top of the box. If I hit a stud or any other object, I know to start cutting in the other direction. Once the cut is about the width of the box I then put the box to the wall and trace the other 3 sides, then cut them out. This way is fast, it works well, I never got into any trouble doing it, and it never got me fired.


I use same technique for a cut in box. Lightly mark wall with pencil after leveling the box, cut then go opposite way if needed. Perfect holes one time shot. Can me and I bet your holes are oversized for hack play.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> I broke my pogo years ago and the new one don't work very well.


@ wirenutting: in your pics there is an orange tool with two levels that looks to be a template for a cut in box. Say it is so and where may I acquire one? Is it any good?


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Eclectic Electric said:


> He said earlier that he (and apparently all his men) just cuts a hole and continually brings the box up to it to see if it's the right size.
> 
> That's kinda like the trial and error way a 1st year apprentice bends pipe.


Hahaha


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Bg fire systms 4life said:


> @ wirenutting: in your pics there is an orange tool with two levels that looks to be a template for a cut in box. Say it is so and where may I acquire one? Is it any good?


@ Bg Fire,
I don't know which picture you mean. 
The one in this thread of my pouch laid out? If so the brass colored tool on the top left is an spring loaded center punch.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Wirenuting* 
_
I broke my pogo years ago and the new one don't work very well._

@ wirenutting: in your pics there is an orange tool with two levels that looks to be a template for a cut in box. Say it is so and where may I acquire one? Is it any good? 


It was Sarness


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Bg fire systms 4life said:


> @ wirenutting: in your pics there is an orange tool with two levels that looks to be a template for a cut in box. Say it is so and where may I acquire one? Is it any good?


That was sarness who posted that picture. 

Check this out:

http://licensedelectrician.com/Store/LE/Tracer-Tool.htm


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

10-4


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I'm still waiting for Chris to post his super-fast method.


Never said it was fast, may take a minute longer but very professional finish.



Eclectic Electric said:


> He said earlier that he (and apparently all his men) just cuts a hole and continually brings the box up to it to see if it's the right size.
> 
> That's kinda like the trial and error way a 1st year apprentice bends pipe.


Who the hell is this clown???


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> That was sarness who posted that picture.
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> http://licensedelectrician.com/Store/LE/Tracer-Tool.htm


Just found it also. 
Rac-a-tiers has some nice stuff. 
I bought 2 of them wire bending knuckles and they worked great on an old 350 repair in a trough.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Just found it also.
> Rac-a-tiers has some nice stuff.
> I bought 2 of them wire bending knuckles and they worked great on an old 350 repair in a trough.


I've been eying a pair of those for some time now, but I just bought a truck so tools will be taking the back burner for a while unless it's something I'm in a dire need for. One of my supply houses had a tool exhibit on Thursday, Rack-a-tiers had a booth. Got a lot of free stuff from Ideal though, the guy was anxious to give it to us.


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## Eclectic Electric (Jun 18, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Never said it was fast, may take a minute longer but very professional finish.


 How is a hole cut without any markings and more of a professional finish than one that was drawn out perfectly?



> Who the hell is this clown???


Why resort to insults? Did you not say that? 

Act like an adult or I'll have Alwon come and delete all your posts.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

That's similar to the orange one I saw and thanks. This one will work. I get lots of existing add-ons and most of the time it's fifteen to twenty cutin boxes. The manufacturer of the boxes we use sends them out oily and this would prevent dark fingers or paw prints


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Eclectic Electric said:


> How is a hole cut without any markings and more of a professional finish than one that was drawn out perfectly?


You and I may be perfect, but our crews are not.




> Why resort to insults?


I was bored, welcome to the forums.



> Act like an adult


I refuse to grow up.



> I'll have Alwon come and delete all your posts.


I'm starting to think you are Dennis.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You live in a perfect world. Again, if you feel the need to draw on a wall to install a box, you won't be on my crew for very long. Just absolutely unnecessary.


You would fire me in a second. i like to use pencil to mark out my old work box. if i feel brave ill use sharpie but i learned long ago that is not a good idea :laughing: thank god for goof plates:thumbup:


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

Bg fire systms 4life said:


> @ wirenutting: in your pics there is an orange tool with two levels that looks to be a template for a cut in box. Say it is so and where may I acquire one? Is it any good?


Was me! Unless its something illegal then I didn't do it and you can't prove anything.

Yep, Thats what it is, I've had it for over 15 years and it works good, I added all the lines on it though, centering and cover edges, makes adding on to existing and keeping things level simple.

You can get it at sandman.com


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

sarness said:


> Was me! Unless its something illegal then I didn't do it and you can't prove anything.
> 
> Yep, Thats what it is, I've had it for over 15 years and it works good, I added all the lines on it though, centering and cover edges, makes adding on to existing and keeping things level simple.
> 
> You can get it at sandman.com


Yep it was you. Backed up by golden boy and the customer that said all his boxes were crooked/ not crooked I mean. I will be ordering quite a few. Two for me and double the price for the helpers and coworkers. Thanks.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

I will continue to trace on wall. My holes are tight and clean. I refuse to send chris my resume as it will have as a heading " I trace cut in boxes on walls". Jk it really says "I don't trace cut in boxes and take twice, thrice the time and leave a gap around the box for level" hire me. Jk.


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## Bg fire systms 4life (Jun 18, 2011)

Woah woah woah. That's mine........ (Previous posting) .......That's what she said. Woohoo got it.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

I rarely trace on the wall. 
Cut horizontally until you hit stud, or not.

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Christ me kill me, I never figured not marring up walls would be such a huge issue.:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Christ me kill me, I never figured not marring up walls would be such a huge issue.:blink:




OK


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## Eclectic Electric (Jun 18, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Christ me kill me, I never figured not marring up walls would be such a huge issue.:blink:


It's not an issue. The way you said that someone who installs an old work box the common and professional way would be fire from your company is the only issue here.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> OK


Thanks pal, knew I could count on you to put me out of my misery. I'm the yellow one right?



Eclectic Electric said:


> It's not an issue. The way you said that someone who installs an old work box the common and professional way would be fire from your company is the only issue here.


Its not my company, I said my crew. I'm no pleasure to work with, but if you survive on my crew you will have consistent 40+hr work weeks. (and I always have water, juice, soda and snacks readily available for my men)


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Thanks pal, knew I could count on you to put me out of my misery. I'm the yellow one right?
> 
> Its not my company, I said my crew. I'm no pleasure to work with, but if you survive on my crew you will have consistent 40+hr work weeks. (and I always have water, juice, soda and snacks readily available for my men)


Are you hiring?

Or

Do you need a job?

The house across the street from me is for sale :whistling:

Sent from your mom's iPhone. She says hi.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Thanks pal, knew I could count on you to put me out of my misery. I'm the yellow one right?
> 
> 
> 
> Its not my company, I said my crew. I'm no pleasure to work with, but if you survive on my crew you will have consistent 40+hr work weeks. (*and I always have water, juice, soda and snacks readily available for my men*)


Sounds like a day care.:jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> You live in a perfect world. Again, if you feel the need to draw on a wall to install a box, you won't be on my crew for very long. Just absolutely unnecessary.


I use my fist to feel where the beams are.. use painters tape on the wall to mark center of box..

Measure where center of box is on base molding or above BB radiators..

Use 1/16" X 6" drill bit to probe wall.. first straight in.. then to left.. then to right of center of the box..

Making a tiny hole where it can't be seen is the best place to start.. :thumbsup: 

Once I know there are no studs in the way.. I do the same thing where the box will sit.. but use the drill bit up and down looking for horizontal blocking..

Nothing wrong with taking the time to do a perfect job..


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't like using cut in boxes. I prefer to screw them securely to a stud.

1. Find stud (within an inch)
2. Cut horizontally (bottom of box) until I hit the edge
3. Cut vertically (to appx height)
4. If I have a pencil, I will mark it. If not, hold the box up to the cut, vertical line, mark top, bottom and other side with a slight poke of the saw.
5. Finish cutting hole.

Different finishes affect the precautions taken. Wallpaper and woodwork require a disclaimer. You never_ really_ know what you will find.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I don't like using cut in boxes. I prefer to screw them securely to a stud.


I agree and using the method I just described gets me on a stud every time..

BUT.. I don't use a smart box.. hack saw and standard _black_ nail-on box works fine for me.. with (2) drywall screws.. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Its not my company, I said my crew. I'm no pleasure to work with, but if you survive on my crew you will have consistent 40+hr work weeks. (and I always have water, juice, soda and snacks readily available for my men)



I'll be there 8AM Tuesday morning.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

b4t said:


> i agree and using the method i just described gets me on a stud every time..
> 
> But.. I don't use a smart box.. Hack saw and* standard black nail-on box works fine for me.. With (2) drywall screws..* :whistling2:


violator!!!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

backstay said:


> violator!!!


I know.. but those smart boxes suck with their KO design..


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'll be there 8AM Tuesday morning.


Good luck negotiating with my employer "Cheap Ass Joe".


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Good luck negotiating with my employer "Cheap Ass Joe".


Maybe Ken is a great shovel man and could take Al's place..


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

B4T said:


> I know.. but those smart boxes suck with their KO design..


You mean the way you can't get the cable into the box? I like Arlingtons much more.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

backstay said:


> You mean the way you can't get the cable into the box? I like Arlingtons much more.


Yes... I used a (4) gang smart box and it was a PIA to get all the wires in the top KO's..


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> (and I always have water, juice, soda and snacks readily available for my men)


What!! No coffee??? 
No way I would work for such a mean task master.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> What!! No coffee???
> No way I would work for such a mean task master.


I forgot to mention coffee at 2pm if someone can leave the site to fetch and be back in 10. I love my afternoon coffee, yet alas, some job sites don't offer that luxury. Since you got me started on the coffee, I drink a medium black, just beans and water. I give a guy a 20 to fetch coffee for 4 and he brings me back a few coins. Seems the younger guys like cold coffee in huge cups.:blink:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

It sucks that now when you order a coffee at DD they ask if you want a hot coffee. 

If I wanted a girlly iced coffee I would have said iced coffee. 
Seems now a hot coffee drinker is in the minority.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Different finishes affect the precautions taken. Wallpaper and woodwork require a disclaimer. You never really know what you will find.


Obstructions not withstanding, use a utility knife to define your edges.

For wallpaper I'll pull it off and open it up, that way if needed you can paste the paper back on. For test holes cut an x, peel back and poke around.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

sarness said:


> Obstructions not withstanding, use a utility knife to define your edges.
> 
> For wallpaper I'll pull it off and open it up, that way if needed you can paste the paper back on. For test holes cut an x, peel back and poke around.


I was also taught the wall paper trick, just did it recently myself. Didn't know about the X method though, that could be pretty handy. :thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> I was also taught the wall paper trick, just did it recently myself. Didn't know about the X method though, that could be pretty handy. :thumbsup:


Not that you drill thru floors often, but if you need a patch for tile, linoleum or hard wood,, take a section from under a refrigerator or dishwasher.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I usually find the center of the box and my bottom height, use my level to make a vertical pencil line on the wall and then align that with the device holes on the 1104 box then trace the full profile of the box. Cut the top horizontal line first and then the rest, then insert the f clips and push the box tight to the drywall with a screwdriver (from the inside of the box) and pull the f clip tight with ***** fold them over and then crimp the ears with the tips of my *****. Takes 5 minutes and it always comes out neat and level. Just make sure you loosen the 4 screws holding the ears on the face of the box and bring them forward before you install it.


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Eclectic Electric said:


> I can't figure out your logic.
> 
> It takes literally 2 seconds to trace around a box. It takes a lot longer to continually bring the box up to check your hole to see if it's the correct size. Your way sounds very hackish, I can't see why you would fire a guy for doing something professionally.
> 
> As for me, when I cut out a gem box, I first use my magnet to check for studs. I then cut a horizontal line across the wall at the height of the top of the box. If I hit a stud or any other object, I know to start cutting in the other direction. Once the cut is about the width of the box I then put the box to the wall and trace the other 3 sides, then cut them out. This way is fast, it works well, I never got into any trouble doing it, and it never got me fired.


THIS is the correct way. The right way. And should be the only way.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Why would you draw on the wall? Use an offset as Ken has posted and drill one little ¼" hole in the wall. Spin that bitch around to find obstructions. Then from that little hole you saw horizontally in both directions checking the dimension with the box until your cool the do the same vertically. No marking required.


Checking the size as you cut would take a lot longer than holding the box up with a level, marking it, then cutting.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Find someone who sells the Slider boxes. They have much better kos, just more flimsy than the Smart boxes.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Are the slider ones the ones made by Allied? If so they are horrible boxes. Those boxes pull out and push in no matter how hard you tighten the screws on the side. Smart box works fine for me but i would like to see them make a low voltage/line voltage 2 gang or else a barrier to slide in the box.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Are the slider ones the ones made by Allied? If so they are horrible boxes. Those boxes pull out and push in no matter how hard you tighten the screws on the side. Smart box works fine for me but i would like to see them make a low voltage/line voltage 2 gang or else a barrier to slide in the box.


Smart Box does make a barrier for that...it's called the SBMMW


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

These:

http://www.alliedmoulded.com/index....gory/template/products_sub_res/categoryid/222

I've had good luck with them in various forms. They are flimsy compared to the smart boxes but shaped better. If the stud is crooked, it can be difficult.


Oh, and another vote for the wiggly.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

I use










For plugs and switches

And a klien weeky week or what ever its called for cover plates










I also trace my boxes


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## oww-is-that-hot? (Jun 26, 2011)

Peter D said:


> That's pretty much SOP for cutting in old work boxes. I wasn't aware of any other way, but you learn something new every day. :blink:
> 
> I bought one of those $5 Hanson magnets for lath and plaster walls. I didn't think it would work but it actually came in pretty handy. You still have to poke around a bit to get the exact stud location.


Yes and if you do commercial those are a MUST HAVE just because they pick the studs up so well. They are now 3 dollars at home depot. Better than a $20 stud finder any day. Only problem is, it sticks to me every time I get near it


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