# Forgive me but: Ground Up or Ground Down?



## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

I know I'll take a beating for asking this but I searched this forum and couldn't find a topic. So, for switched receptacles do you normally install them ground up or ground down?

For apartment building the owner is asking that we do something to make it clear to the residents that it is a switched receptacle. We were also going to make the switched outlets a different color from unswitched outlets.

I'm ready now for my punishment.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

In newer houses I have seen them install the switched outlets upsidedown. 

It's really up to you. I probably wouldn't install a different color outlet because if they don't like it you may have to eat the service call to go put in the correct color.

A label maker works fine, put a small label on the coverplate that says "Switched".


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

this is silliness.

the proper way to switch outlets is to split the duplexes and put the swtiched ones on the top, or on the bottom, or alternate them at random, or if you aren't going to split them, to put them in random places where you wouldn't expect them to be, and not to have any indicators at all, ever.

this client is a moron.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It's really up to you. I probably wouldn't install a different color outlet because if they don't like it you may have to eat the service call to go put in the correct color.


Or worse the client doesn't like the color period. Keep it simple.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

bill39 said:


> to make it clear to the residents that it is a switched receptacle.


As Hax said label maker or a dark colored face plate screw.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The landlord is obviously pi$$ed at taking calls that an outlet doesn’t work. At least this is creative. Just do it. No big deal.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

99cents said:


> The landlord is obviously pi$$ed at taking calls that an outlet doesn’t work. At least this is creative. Just do it. No big deal.


He may be a cheapskate & not want to put in ceiling lights.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> He may be a cheapskate & not want to put in ceiling lights.


Personally, I don't like ceiling lights in most rooms. I think lamps in bedrooms and living rooms look so much nicer and are better for the typical television watching or reading that is done in those rooms. 

In my living room I have all 3 lamps controlled by 1 switch. I have homeruns of 14-3 to each outlet going back to a 12" box this way I can pick and choose which outlet/s I switch and since they are bi-wired with 3 wire I can also pick whether they will be totally switched or split with constant power.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Personally, I don't like ceiling lights in most rooms. I think lamps in bedrooms and living rooms look so much nicer and are better for the typical television watching or reading that is done in those rooms.
> 
> In my living room I have all 3 lamps controlled by 1 switch. I have homeruns of 14-3 to each outlet going back to a 12" box this way I can pick and choose which outlet/s I switch and since they are bi-wired with 3 wire I can also pick whether they will be totally switched or split with constant power.


Good points. I guess I'm partial to ceiling fans & not everyone has central air/heat.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Label it


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Switch the bottom. They can plug a lamp in there. This leaves the top accessible and always hot.

Ground down of course.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

daveEM said:


> Switch the bottom. They can plug a lamp in there. This leaves the top accessible and always hot.
> 
> Ground down of course.


As with everything in life, it's never that simple :biggrin:

I did that originally, and then I had 2 outlets in which I wanted to plug in cords with either right angle plugs or wall warts. So I learned that switching the top and leaving the bottom constant might be better :smile:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

unless i misunderstand ..the client of the OP just wants it obvious which outlet is switched. I have always put the switched outlet in upside down to differentiate it. We did this
so the building dept inspector could tell right away in the final inspection which was switched .


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Write on the wall next to the receptacle in crayon ""if dis don't work try da switch" use a red crayon to push the point.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

If anything I'd just label them like hacks suggested.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

wildleg said:


> this is silliness.
> 
> this client is a moron.


I think you misread it.

Since the 90's (in my area) switched receptacles have been installed upside down (in relation to the regular receptacles).

I thought it was simple genius.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I hate lamps. Lamps are stupid. Why turn on a light down by the floor? I grew up in a house with ceiling lights and every home I've ever lived in has ceiling lights.


To each their own.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I hate lamps. Lamps are stupid. Why turn on a light down by the floor? I grew up in a house with ceiling lights and every home I've ever lived in has ceiling lights.
> 
> 
> To each their own.


Lamps aren't down by the floor :vs_laugh: They are generally around 4' high. Did you have a liquid lunch today to celebrate Friday? :biggrin:

Lamps with their shades diffuse the soft ambient light nicely and create a more pleasant atmosphere for relaxing. Ceiling lights generally create many hot spots in your field of view which distract you and can strain your eyes. 

I have recessed lights and dimmers in every room in my house. But in the living room, bedroom, and even my office right now, I use lamps. When I have work laid out on my desk I might use ceiling lights if there isn't enough natural light coming in at that time.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

My OCD would not let me have one receptacle in the room mounted upside down.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Lamps aren't down by the floor :vs_laugh: They are generally around 4' high. Did you have a liquid lunch today to celebrate Friday? :biggrin:
> 
> Lamps with their shades diffuse the soft ambient light nicely and create a more pleasant atmosphere for relaxing. Ceiling lights generally create many hot spots in your field of view which distract you and can strain your eyes.
> 
> I have recessed lights and dimmers in every room in my house. But in the living room, bedroom, and even my office right now, I use lamps. When I have work laid out on my desk I might use ceiling lights if there isn't enough natural light coming in at that time.



No liquid lunch. Never did understand why people drink then work, or worse, drink and work.


I've probably drank 3 times this calendar year. Had a beer on Labor Day and probably 2 more times I drank. Just not that in to it any more. Getting old!


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

I saw A guy get hit when his metal snake fell across an extension cord that wasn’t plugged in all the way.

After that I understand why some guys mite want to put grounds up as a safety measure .


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## was240 (May 12, 2011)

i like ground up. 
If i do metal cover plates, i am always ground up.

also, for switched, i found these


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> I saw A guy get hit when his metal snake fell across an extension cord that wasn’t plugged in all the way.
> 
> After that I understand why some guys mite want to put grounds up as a safety measure .


Up or down is not safer then the other. If a cord is not plugged in fully, it’s a hazard reguardless of how the receptacle is installed.

And that is why it’s not a code requirement


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw A guy get hit when his metal snake fell across an extension cord that wasn’t plugged in all the way.
> ...


I agree but I think it’s more likely for a metal object to fall from above and land on the plug like a snake , picture frame , coat hanger etc .

Than something coming from the ground up and hitting the plug .


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Up or down is not safer then the other. If a cord is not plugged in fully, it’s a hazard reguardless of how the receptacle is installed.
> 
> And that is why it’s not a code requirement


thats right

also not code requirement because manufacturer gets same price regardless of orientation when installed?:biggrin:


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

was240 said:


> i like ground up.
> If i do metal cover plates, i am always ground up.
> 
> also, for switched, i found these


Part number? Does the circle line symbol light up when it's hot?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

was240 said:


> i like ground up.
> If i do metal cover plates, i am always ground up.
> 
> also, for switched, i found these



That graphic means it's on a timer.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

was240 said:


> i like ground up.
> If i do metal cover plates, i am always ground up.
> 
> also, for switched, i found these


Can you get them so the words aren’t printed upside Down? :biggrin::vs_laugh:




Just like every other thread on receptacle orientation, this thread is going to get locked.

IBTL


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Can you get them so the words aren’t printed upside Down? :biggrin::vs_laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Might need an EEOC ruling for; _receptacle orientation_ :vs_laugh:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/press/pdfs/Original_WLFSB008.pdf


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

Always switch the top, because wall transformers especially polarized ones need to be on the bottom and no one wants to deal with their phone or ps4 chargers turning off by accident. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

I like the simplicity of putting it ground up. If you choose this way then put the switched part on the bottom. Bulky adapter cords and 90 degree cords with a ground can then go on top and will not block the other receptacle do the opposite if you choose grounds down and label it ie switched part on top


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

A controlled receptacle and a receptacle controlled by a toggle are not the same. That controlled receptacle verbage & marking is for a receptacle controlled by a timer or occupancy sensor where it's going to change state without human intervention.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> I like the simplicity of putting it ground up. If you choose this way then put the switched part on the bottom. Bulky adapter cords and 90 degree cords with a ground can then go on top and will not block the other receptacle do the opposite if you choose grounds down and label it ie switched part on top


Plugging wall warts in upsidedown tend to have them start to fall outward out of the outlet. And right angle plugs with the cord going up is horrible!


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Plugging wall warts in upsidedown tend to have them start to fall outward out of the outlet. And right angle plugs with the cord going up is horrible!


Meh, every union job I am on they put the grounds up and I have never heard anyone complain or say that cords come loose and its been a "thing" here for decades ie all receptacles are grounds up. The thinking was the age old argument on a faceplate falling off …...I know I know lol. Now with tamper proof outlets there is almost no chance of any cord ever falling out, Those freaking things are snug. 
When I do side work I do grounds down because just about every house in the country is that way.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m sorry, but plugging in wall warts or right angle plugs upside down is just wrong.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bill, is this new work? If so you might want to look at 210.52. This would either mean another receptacle that is not switched or split wire the receptacle so half is on the switch.



> 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
> provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle
> outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in
> addition to any receptacle that is:
> ...


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> That graphic means it's on a timer.


No, it does not. The timer icon is usually either showing a clock hand at an angle in a partial circle, or two clock hands in a circle.


That icon means it is a controlled device that has a "Standby" state, meaning it is not fully energized, but it is not completely off and isolated from the line. If the straight line was fully inside of the circle, it would be fully isolated from the line when Off.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol


So in that duplex, they are meaning that the upper receptacle is controlled by something like an occupancy switch or remote control.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is the easy solution...


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

JRaef said:


> No, it does not. The timer icon is usually either showing a clock hand at an angle in a partial circle, or two clock hands in a circle.
> 
> 
> That icon means it is a controlled device that has a "Standby" state, meaning it is not fully energized, but it is not completely off and isolated from the line. If the straight line was fully inside of the circle, it would be fully isolated from the line when Off.
> ...



2017 NEC 406.3(E) states:
Controlled Receptacle Marking. All nonlocking-type, 125-volt, 15 and 20 ampere receptacles tha are controlled by an automotic contrl device, or that incorporate control features that remove power from the receptacle for the purpose of energy management or building automation, shall be permanently marked with the symbol shown in Figure 406.3(E) and the word "controlled". 

For receptacles controlled by an automatic control device, the marking shall be located on the receptacle face and visible after installation.


In both cases where a multiple receptacle device is used, the required marking of the word "controlled" and symbol shall denote which contact device(s) are controlled.


_Exception: The marking shall not be required for receptacles controlled by a wall switch that provide the required room lighting outlets as permitted by 210.70._

The graphic they show is almost a circle with a stick (hand) at 12 o'clock and the word "Controlled" under it.


I'm not familiar with the symbol with the hand at an angle.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> I agree but I think it’s more likely for a metal object to fall from above and land on the plug like a snake , picture frame , coat hanger etc .
> 
> Than something coming from the ground up and hitting the plug .


That's only because that's what they teach you in union schooling.

They needed something to take up your time, so that's one of the BS things they came up with.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree but I think it’s more likely for a metal object to fall from above and land on the plug like a snake , picture frame , coat hanger etc .
> ...


Helmut that comment was extremely 
Ignorant and false 

Just shows how immature your are .

But kids will be kids lol


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> Helmut that comment was extremely
> Ignorant and false
> l


Tell us where you heard it from?

It used to if a dime fell, but I guess they changed it to coat hanger now.

Can't imagine that happening, but young minds are easy to fill with nonsense.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > Helmut that comment was extremely
> ...


At least in the union we have an apprentiship . 

On a job I saw a man on a lift snaking down a colom, his snake fell below and landed on top of the plug and he got hit .


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> At least in the union we have an apprentiship .


So do merit shops, what else you got?




Unionpride277 said:


> On a job I saw a man on a lift snaking down a colom, his snake fell below and landed on top of the plug and he got hit .


I doubt it, you heard that in school. Old wives tale.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Unionpride277 said:


> At least in the union we have an apprentiship .
> 
> On a job I saw a man on a lift snaking down a colom, his snake fell below and landed on top of the plug and he got hit .


48 years of performing all sorts of electrical work 32 years performing PQ, Electrical Testing and investigating electrical accidents never ever heard of a single case of an issue with ground up or down except from engineers trying to show how big their brains are.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I saw a guy stub his toe once, I bet he was not union.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > At least in the union we have an apprentiship .
> ...


Merit shops apprentiship are a joke stop it .


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Unionpride277 said:


> Helmut said:
> 
> 
> > Unionpride277 said:
> ...


I never mentioned union vs union I said how I saw a guy get hit with a snake , 

Just shows helmets very immature 
But kids will be kids .


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> I never mentioned union vs union I said how I saw a guy get hit with a snake ,
> 
> Just shows helmets very immature
> But kids will be kids .


Merit shops use fiberglass rods, not metal snakes. 
Merit shops use KO sets, not hole saws.


You get your tools from inside a Happy Meal?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> But kids will be kids .


I'd say he is in his early 50's.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > But kids will be kids .
> ...


No way def a little boy


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wildleg said:


> this is silliness.
> 
> the proper way to switch outlets is to split the duplexes and put the swtiched ones on the top, or on the bottom, or alternate them at random, or if you aren't going to split them, to put them in random places where you wouldn't expect them to be, and not to have any indicators at all, ever.
> 
> this client is a moron.


The switched always goes on the bottom. No more discussion.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Unionpride277 said:


> Merit shops apprentiship are a joke stop it .


Some of the worst work I have ever seen is from Union guys. Most of them can't even cut a 2X4.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I never mentioned union vs union I said how I saw a guy get hit with a snake ,
> ...


Lol hole saws to punch through to be able to use a ko punch .lol

Coming from the guy that said the conductors in a conduit outside don’t have to be rated for wetlocation .

Please stop


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I never mentioned union vs union I said how I saw a guy get hit with a snake ,
> ...



You told me to Sleeve mc in a conduit that stubs up from a slab .

I think you need some schooling


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> You told me to Sleeve mc in a conduit that stubs up from a slab .
> 
> I think you need some schooling


That is the thread in which you called a "from-to" a "front tube".


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> Lol hole saws to punch through to be able to use a ko punch .lol


Merit shops use Uni-bits




Unionpride277 said:


> Please stop


Take your own advice


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> That is the thread in which you called a "from-to" a "front tube".


You're killing me tonight...:vs_laugh:

He's looking for an argument, and keeps f-ing it up.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > That is the thread in which you called a "from-to" a "front tube".
> ...


Yes and you said to sleeve mc in a wet location lol please did they teach you that in your merit shop for one year lol


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Unionpride277 said:


> Helmut said:
> 
> 
> > HackWork said:
> ...


I can’t you have me dying


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

You guys crack me up. :lol:
Time to pop another bowl of popcorn.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> The switched always goes on the bottom. No more discussion.


Only west of the Missippi. East of that it's always on the top.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > Lol hole saws to punch through to be able to use a ko punch .lol
> ...


So your telling me merit shops have better training than the ibew .

Lol please you are a comedian


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Unionpride277 said:


> So your telling me merit shops have better training than the ibew .
> 
> Lol please you are a comedian


Apparently, they use better tools and are better trained on their use, than you.

You not making out well tonight. Need to learn to pick your battles.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > So your telling me merit shops have better training than the ibew .
> ...


I was going to say the same to you 
Keep pulling mc in wet locations 

And preaching how merit shops have better training .
Lol what a joke you are


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Forge Boyz said:


> Only west of the Missippi. East of that it's always on the top.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


What happens when you mount them horizontal, instead of vertical?

Do the grounds go to the right, because most people are right handed, and if they throw a dime and it hits the receptacle it will deflect off, and not cause a huge god forsaken explosion that burns down the neighborhood?


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Helmut said:


> Forge Boyz said:
> 
> 
> > Only west of the Missippi. East of that it's always on the top.
> ...


Lol you are a joke I never said that receptacles should be mounted grounds up I said I saw a snake land on a plug that wasn’t in the outlet all the way and get some hit .

How’s that mc doing in the slab lol

What a hack hahaha did you learn that in your one year of schooling


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Helmut said:


> What happens when you mount them horizontal, instead of vertical?
> 
> Do the grounds go to the right, because most people are right handed, and if they throw a dime and it hits the receptacle it will deflect off, and not cause a huge god forsaken explosion that burns down the neighborhood?


I forgot about Chicago. The west can have them. I don't care.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm West... never switched the bottoms of a 1/2 switched. Like has been said, wall warts.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I heard that all "Merit Shops" beat the children of their employees and bang their wives, those non union guys are just horrible.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

I heard Union guys eat children and 
And do satinic rituals.

Their evil for getting contractors to pay high wages and pensions .

And the fact that they want to send the men to 5 years of schooling how dare them 

I think I saw a few members branding each other on their bottoms with hot spoons .


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Unionpride277 said:


> I heard Union guys eat children and
> And do satinic rituals.
> 
> Their evil for getting contractors to pay high wages and pensions .
> ...


That's all true, especially for local 666

As to the branding of the bottoms, that may just be you and your crew. :vs_whistle:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> I heard that all "Merit Shops" beat the children of their employees and bang their wives, those non union guys are just horrible.


Thanks for the good idea!

In addition to me opening a company store for my employees to buy everything from and having them live in my company housing, I’m also going to invoke wife privileges. :devil3:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

As soon as my workers turn 12, I start paying them minimum wage.

It's the least I could do, and I sleep better at night now.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Helmut said:


> As soon as my workers turn 12, I start paying them minimum wage.
> 
> It's the least I could do, and I sleep better at night now.


Why? 

At that point they are too old and start to "Know Better". I get rid of them by then.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Given the advent of double insulated devices, the vast majority of things plugged in these days have only two prongs, making the safety argument for ground up receptacles moot. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> Given the advent of double insulated devices, the vast majority of things plugged in these days have only two prongs, making the safety argument for ground up receptacles moot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Oh now you’ve done it...


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

B-Nabs said:


> Given the advent of double insulated devices, the vast majority of things plugged in these days have only two prongs, making the safety argument for ground up receptacles moot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Except for the very common occurrence of hangers, coins, and fish tapes coming into contact with a receptacle/plug connection. 

OH... WAIT!!!

AFCI's will save the world, no need to worry about the rest of the code now. It is all trivial as the AFCI will protect us from all evil, even fish tapes.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Switched said:


> Except for the very common occurrence of hangers, coins, and fish tapes coming into contact with a receptacle/plug connection.
> 
> .


Let's not forget those pesky metal picture frames that fall off the walls on a continuous basis.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Helmut said:


> Let's not forget those pesky metal picture frames that fall off the walls on a continuous basis.


That is exactly why I choose to bubble wrap my kids, never let them outside and refuse to use the word "No" in my house. All H E double hockey sticks could break out!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It’s all fun and games until someone drops something on a plug. Let’s see you bastards laugh then.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

Switched said:


> I'm West... never switched the bottoms of a 1/2 switched. Like has been said, wall warts.



I was thinking the same as some surge protected power bars have an angle plug


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> It’s all fun and games until someone drops something on a plug. Let’s see you bastards laugh then.


That is actually how I make my millions. I take cheap Chinese made night lights, inserts them halfway into a non TR receptacle that isn't AFCI protected and served by an FPE panel and drop a penny between the two prongs.

This is all to demonstrate the murderous nature of electricity to my customers. 

I really wanted to do the whole Elephant thing, but I couldn't find any local.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If anything I'd just label them like hacks suggested.




This is what I have always done.... just label them. Hopefully the tenants can read. AND... the ground is always on the bottom not because it is in the code, but because there are at least 500 million cord sets out there that have angle attachment caps with the grounding prong on the bottom.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

I was taught to switch the bottom half because it's the item that won't get unplugged. The top is more convenient to plugin and unplug the vacume cleaner.


sbrn33 said:


> The switched always goes on the bottom. No more discussion.


Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

jelhill said:


> This is what I have always done.... just label them. Hopefully the tenants can read. AND... the ground is always on the bottom not because it is in the code, *but because there are at least 500 million cord sets out there that have angle attachment caps with the grounding prong on the bottom.*


That's my kind of logic!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I was taught to switch the bottom half because it's the item that won't get unplugged. The top is more convenient to plugin and unplug the vacume cleaner.


Wasn't really ever taught that but it makes perfect sense and have always done it that way.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> jelhill said:
> 
> 
> > This is what I have always done.... just label them. Hopefully the tenants can read. AND... the ground is always on the bottom not because it is in the code, *but because there are at least 500 million cord sets out there that have angle attachment caps with the grounding prong on the bottom.*
> ...





MechanicalDVR said:


> Wasn't really ever taught that but it makes perfect sense and have always done it that way.


But the first post goes against the second.

You agree that ground down makes sense because of all the right angle plugs with the ground down. But if you put the switched outlet on the bottom (which a typical straight lamp cord would be plugged into), then the non-switched outlet that everyone would be plugging the right angled plugs into would be on the top, where it wouldn't work.

There's a lot of right angle plugs these days, wall warts, USB power supplies, power strip plugs, even TV's have them to make it low profile when hanging on the wall. They need to be plugged into the bottom outlet.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> But the first post goes against the second.
> 
> You agree that ground down makes sense because of all the right angle plugs with the ground down. But if you put the switched outlet on the bottom (which a typical straight lamp cord would be plugged into), then the non-switched outlet that everyone would be plugging the right angled plugs into would be on the top, where it wouldn't work.
> 
> There's a lot of right angle plugs these days, wall warts, USB power supplies, power strip plugs, even TV's have them to make it low profile when hanging on the wall. They need to be plugged into the bottom outlet.


I think they both make sense.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

In my experience in residential the grounds were always down. In commercial it depended on how new it was & if it was spec'd in the construction docs.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> But the first post goes against the second.
> 
> You agree that ground down makes sense because of all the right angle plugs with the ground down. But if you put the switched outlet on the bottom (which a typical straight lamp cord would be plugged into), then the non-switched outlet that everyone would be plugging the right angled plugs into would be on the top, where it wouldn't work.
> 
> There's a lot of right angle plugs these days, wall warts, USB power supplies, power strip plugs, even TV's have them to make it low profile when hanging on the wall. They need to be plugged into the bottom outlet.


Meh .... That's what extension cords are for.

And with AFCI technology, absolutely nothing bad will happen :biggrin:


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Sideways!


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I had a service call once where someone replaced a switch for a receptacle with a dimmer. The new tenant didn’t realize and plugged their vacuum into the dimmed portion. The vacuum didn’t like the dimmed voltage and never worked again.


----------



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> I had a service call once where someone replaced a switch for a receptacle with a dimmer. The new tenant didn’t realize and plugged their vacuum into the dimmed portion. The vacuum didn’t like the dimmed voltage and never worked again.


That's why the Code doesn't want us to install a dimmer on switched plugs!... meanwhile I did that for a client last month. Plug is near the ceiling though.

You could always make the box a 2 gang and put the switched plug in ground up and the normal outlet in ground down.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That's why the Code doesn't want us to install a dimmer on switched plugs!... meanwhile I did that for a client last month. Plug is near the ceiling though.
> 
> *You could always make the box a 2 gang and put the switched plug in ground up and the normal outlet in ground down*.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Again my OCD would not allow that :wink:

I have been known to align the screws on switch and receptacle plates while visiting friends houses !


----------



## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

In all new constructions projects, I go all grounds up. In existing buildings, I do whatever is already existing. The reason I prefer ground up is because when you plug something in, the ground prong will be on top of the hot prongs. One example of why this is a good thing: I went to a service call one time where they had a plug behind a cloths hanger. They had a fan plugged into it and the male end was not all the way pushed in. One of the cloths hangers fell off the wrack and hit the hot and neutral prong and caught the wall on fire... This would of never happened with ground up. There are MANY things that can fall down and touch neutral to hot and cause a fire, this is just one example. So always go ground up on new constructions, it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> In all new constructions projects, I go all grounds up. In existing buildings, I do whatever is already existing. The reason I prefer ground up is because when you plug something in, the ground prong will be on top of the hot prongs. One example of why this is a good thing: I went to a service call one time where they had a plug behind a cloths hanger. They had a fan plugged into it and the male end was not all the way pushed in. One of the cloths hangers fell off the wrack and hit the hot and neutral prong and caught the wall on fire... This would of never happened with ground up. There are MANY things that can fall down and touch neutral to hot and cause a fire, this is just one example. So always go ground up on new constructions, it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


The wall caught on fire? 

That's not the fault of the ground being down, that's the fault of having no freakin breaker lol.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

JasonCo said:


> In all new constructions projects, I go all grounds up. In existing buildings, I do whatever is already existing. The reason I prefer ground up is because when you plug something in, the ground prong will be on top of the hot prongs. One example of why this is a good thing: I went to a service call one time where they had a plug behind a cloths hanger. They had a fan plugged into it and the male end was not all the way pushed in. One of the cloths hangers fell off the wrack and hit the hot and neutral prong and caught the wall on fire... This would of never happened with ground up. There are MANY things that can fall down and touch neutral to hot and cause a fire, this is just one example. So always go ground up on new constructions, it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


I saw a man snaking down a column 
And his snake landed on an extension cords prong that wasn’t plugged in all the way . Needles to say he got hit


So I believe this could happen


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> Needles to say he got hit


:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

Thank you for the new Rickyism :biggrin:


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The wall caught on fire?
> 
> That's not the fault of the ground being down, that's the fault of having no freakin breaker lol.


Operator error. Make sure the plug is all the way in & don't try to move the fan as far away as possible & not check the plug!


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

:biggrin::devil3:


----------



## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

Lol hahhahaha


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 130226
> 
> 
> :biggrin::devil3:


Well, Cockle doodle fawking ketchup chips ... how did Ricky know dat :biggrin:


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Is it me, or is there a ton of BS going on here with coat hangers and fish tapes?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


A lawsuit, really? :vs_laugh:

Considering there is no code against installing a receptacle with the ground pin down, How could there possibly be a lawsuit against the installer?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Unionpride277 said:


> I saw a man snaking down a column
> And his snake landed on an extension cords prong that wasn’t plugged in all the way . Needles to say he got hit
> 
> 
> So I believe this could happen


I once had the connection between an extension cord and my drill short out on a ceiling grid because it was not plugged in completely. Upside down plug won’t make a difference there.

This has been a debate for many years but still there is no code demanding the orientation of a receptacle, why? Because one way is not safer than the other.


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

eddy current said:


> Unionpride277 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a man snaking down a column
> ...


Sounds good to me


----------



## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

CEC 72-110 (3)

The only place mentioned in the CEC I think. For the Trailer Park Boys.


----------



## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Original Poster here: 109 posts on this seemingly subject should be enough for me to make a decision. I LOVE it!!

Thanks for all of the varying opinions. A lot of good info shared. I never considered the wall-wart issue or the right angle plugs. Also, had never seen the "controlled receptacle" symbol.


So, for the switched receptacles I'm going with ground up, top will be switched, bottom will be unswitched, brown in color for them and the cover plates will be ivory (this color combo is per the owner). Unswitched receptacles will be ivory w/ivory plates.


I'll let you know how things turn out. Thanks again.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> In all new constructions projects, I go all grounds up. In existing buildings, I do whatever is already existing. The reason I prefer ground up is because when you plug something in, the ground prong will be on top of the hot prongs. One example of why this is a good thing: I went to a service call one time where they had a plug behind a cloths hanger. They had a fan plugged into it and the male end was not all the way pushed in. One of the cloths hangers fell off the wrack and hit the hot and neutral prong and caught the wall on fire... This would of never happened with ground up. There are MANY things that can fall down and touch neutral to hot and cause a fire, this is just one example. So always go ground up on new constructions, it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


Who has metal hangers anymore. Sounds fake.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bill39 said:


> So, for the switched receptacles I'm going with ground up, top will be switched, bottom will be unswitched


That makes no sense.

You said ground up, top switched.

The cord of right angle plugs or wall warts will go upwards (bad), and get in the way of the switched outlet above it (bad).


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I had alcohol at the Hibachi Grill last week. No choice...
Japanese Chef pointed Sake at me and made me drink it.
I felt so violated.

The week before , at the Mexican restaurant , a big 
strawberry daiquiri....that was voluntary


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

TGGT said:


> Sounds fake.



You think?

They sound like hand-me-down stories told in a classroom environment.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

lighterup said:


> I had alcohol at the Hibachi Grill last week. No choice...
> Japanese Chef pointed Sake at me and made me drink it.
> I felt so violated.
> 
> ...


What were you hitting before you posted this, in this thread?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Helmut said:


> What were you hitting before you posted this, in this thread?


I was quoting Mike from Post # 20
Just noticed his post is not showing up...I definitely hit "quote" button.


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

lighterup said:


> I was quoting Mike from Post # 20
> Just noticed his post is not showing up...I definitely hit "quote" button.


Hence my confusion.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Some of the worst work I have ever seen is from Union guys. Most of them can't even cut a 2X4.


the union carpenters can


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Helmut said:


> Hence my confusion.


I'm catching up on reading this post from page 1. I'm on page 3 right now. 
Leave me alone or I'm gonna PM Union pride to intervene:vs_laugh:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> That makes no sense.
> 
> You said ground up, top switched.
> 
> The cord of right angle plugs or wall warts will go upwards (bad), and get in the way of the switched outlet above it (bad).


What gets plugged into a switched recep? Lamps....

Wall warts get plugged into ground down, unswitched receps, along with right angle plugs.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Just did a small job today.
Newly built enclosed , unheated , front porch.
7 outlet receptacles
2 single pole switches
1 coach light outside doorway

Guy didn't want ceiling light or fan ...he wanted a switched outlet.

Nobody home the entire time I was there , no specification on which outlet
they wanted switched so i ran the entire circuit in 3 wire and picked one of 
em to switch.

Forgot to turn the receptacle upside down...so now i wait for the call...
heh-heh-heh


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Mrs Lighterup says...I'm "evil"...heh-heh-heh


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

lighterup said:


> Just did a small job today.
> Newly built enclosed , unheated , front porch.
> 7 outlet receptacles
> 2 single pole switches
> ...


No cell phones in that family? :surprise:

I would suspect that they want every receptacle to be on a switch-leg.

That way no (exterior) loads run in the off hours.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Again my OCD would not allow that :wink:
> 
> *I have been known to align the screws on switch and receptacle plates while visiting friends houses !*


Get help. :devil3:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> What gets plugged into a switched recep? Lamps....
> 
> Wall warts get plugged into ground down, unswitched receps, along with right angle plugs.


When bi-wiring an outlet, you should leave the constant outlet in a position that it can be used. And since so many cords have right angle plugs or wall warts, there is only 1 good way to do that: ground down top switched.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

lighterup said:


> Leave me alone or I'm gonna PM Union pride to intervene:vs_laugh:


Oh great. We might learn that the proper way to unroll TP is from behind, rather from the front, so cats don't unroll them.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> When bi-wiring an outlet, you should leave the constant outlet in a position that it can be used. And since so many cords have right angle plugs or wall warts, there is only 1 good way to do that: ground down top switched.


Ain't seen too many lamps with a right angle plug.

Someone here had a picture one time, that was a duplex and each receptacle of the duplex could spin around. Use them, and case closed..


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> Ain't seen too many lamps with a right angle plug.


 I am not talking about the lamp. I am talking about the second item that you would plug into that outlet.

By installing the outlet ground down with the top outlet switched, you plug a typical straight lamp plug into the top switched outlet and that leaves the bottom outlet open to plug anything into, including wall warts and right angle plugs.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

HackWork said:


> That makes no sense.
> 
> You said ground up, top switched.
> 
> The cord of right angle plugs or wall warts will go upwards (bad), and get in the way of the switched outlet above it (bad).


Yes, ground up for switched.
Ground down for unswitched, since there are more of those than the switched type.

Feel free to chime in, but it seems there’s no way to make everyone happy or make both recep types accommodate the the right angle ground issue.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bill39 said:


> Yes, ground up for switched.
> Ground down for unswitched, since there are more of those than the switched type.
> 
> Feel free to chime in, but it seems there’s no way to make everyone happy or make both recep types accommodate the the right angle ground issue.


There is a way, and we have explained it many, many times :vs_laugh:

Ground down and top outlet switched. That's it, it's that simple.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> There is a way, and we have explained it many, many times :vs_laugh:
> 
> Ground down and top outlet switched. That's it, it's that simple.


It seems everyone except the OP and Helmut are able to see it.


Someone have a pic ??
:biggrin:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

eddy current said:


> I had a service call once where someone replaced a switch for a receptacle with a dimmer. The new tenant didn’t realize and plugged their vacuum into the dimmed portion. The vacuum didn’t like the dimmed voltage and never worked again.





Kevin_Essiambre said:


> That's why the Code doesn't want us to install a dimmer on switched plugs!... meanwhile I did that for a client last month. Plug is near the ceiling though.
> 
> You could always make the box a 2 gang and put the switched plug in ground up and the normal outlet in ground down.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


https://lightingcontrolsassociation...n-electronics-introduces-dimmable-receptacle/

I installed some of these in my bedroom so I could dim some lamps plugged into switched receptacles. They're pretty neat. You replace the plug on the lamp with this special one that mates with a rejection nub on the dimmed receptacle. The lamp can be plugged into any receptacle, but only the special mating plug can be plugged into the dimmed receptacle. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Helmut said:


> You think?
> 
> They sound like hand-me-down stories told in a classroom environment.


I had a job where a lineman repeatedly shorted a meter to the can as he tried to remove it. It backfed into the house and set it on fire.

The meter was installed ground down.













Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

bill39 said:


> Yes, ground up for switched.
> Ground down for unswitched, since there are more of those than the switched type.
> 
> Feel free to chime in, but it seems there’s no way to make everyone happy or make both recep types accommodate the the right angle ground issue.


:vs_laugh:now that you mention it....readers digest version as follows...
went to give an estimate...HO hated previous electrician (evidently)
Couldn't stop pointing out the dumb stuff..."look what he did here"...
"look what he did there"....one of those criticisms was the upside down
receptacle (the switched one).

Yeah...I ran


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

MikeFL said:


> No liquid lunch. Never did understand why people drink then work, or worse, drink and work.
> 
> 
> I've probably drank 3 times this calendar year. Had a beer on Labor Day and probably 2 more times I drank. Just not that in to it any more. Getting old!


I can relate to the “getting old part!”:smile:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

TGGT said:


> I had a job where a lineman repeatedly shorted a meter to the can as he tried to remove it. It backfed into the house and set it on fire.
> 
> The meter was installed ground down.
> 
> ...


Lucky he didn’t lose an eye... I guess the utility has good insurance, they will need it!


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I had a job where a lineman repeatedly shorted a meter to the can as he tried to remove it. It backfed into the house and set it on fire.
> 
> The meter was installed ground down.
> 
> ...


Did the panel have a main breaker? I turn that off when pulling / setting a meter. 

I had a homeowner call me out for a service call once. He tried to change out the main himself. He pulled the meter and the line side of the socket hinged off and came close to the housing! I told the homeowner to call the poco and thank God he didn't get lit up. The nearest transformer was 3/4 of a block down the alley. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I had a job where a lineman repeatedly shorted a meter to the can as he tried to remove it. It backfed into the house and set it on fire.
> 
> The meter was installed ground down.
> 
> ...


What exactly happened? Why did a short between the hot leg and neutral/ground at the can cause a fire on the other side of a brick wall?


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

zac;5111866[B said:


> ]Did the panel have a main breaker?[/B] I turn that off when pulling / setting a meter.
> 
> I had a homeowner call me out for a service call once. He tried to change out the main himself. He pulled the meter and the line side of the socket hinged off and came close to the housing! I told the homeowner to call the poco and thank God he didn't get lit up. The nearest transformer was 3/4 of a block down the alley.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I would never pull a meter off the socket under load.
That is asking for it IMO


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

lighterup said:


> I would never pull a meter off the socket under load.
> That is asking for it IMO


They don’t allow us to do it anymore. Only the utility can do it. When we schedule a service upgrade, they come and remove it and keep it so they can install it. They also will not install it until they have heard from the inspector.

And of course, they charge the customer or EC for the disconnect and reconnect.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> What exactly happened? Why did a short between the hot leg and neutral/ground at the can cause a fire on the other side of a brick wall?


I'm guessing because the fault occurred before the main and that a loose bond between the meter can and the panel caused the raceway to heat up to a temperature so hot it ignited the combustible material on the inside wall.

Couldn't find a good path to ground fast enough?

Hence the code requirement to use grounding bushings before the first means of disconnect? 

IDK...:vs_OMG:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> I'm guessing because the fault occurred before the main and that a loose bond between the meter can and the panel caused the raceway to heat up to a temperature so hot it ignited the combustible material on the inside wall.
> 
> Couldn't find a good path to ground fast enough?
> 
> ...


The neutral from the PoCo gets bonded to the meter can. My assumption is that the current would flow from the hot leg to the meter can and back thru the neutral. I'm not picturing where it enters the house in that situation.

I pull meters all the time so this is something I would really like to understand.


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> There is a way, and we have explained it many, many times :vs_laugh:
> 
> Ground down and top outlet switched. That's it, it's that simple.


I finally got what your explaining. Your referencing a duplex receptacle, whose strap is cut, and you have (3) CCC entering the box.

I was visioning the OP discussing a basic switched duplex. whereby both receptacles in the outlet are being switched.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> I finally got what your explaining. Your referencing a duplex receptacle, whose strap is cut, and you have (3) CCC entering the box.
> 
> I was visioning the OP discussing a basic switched duplex. whereby both receptacles in the outlet are being switched.


Yes, exactly. The OP said that he was only going to switch one of the 2 outlets in the duplex.

Dennis posted the article earlier saying that if you switch both outlets in the duplex, you still need an unswitched outlet next to it for the minimum required spacing. So thats why everyone always bi-wires the outlet in order to switch only one.


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Yes, exactly. The OP said that he was only going to switch one of the 2 outlets in the duplex.





bill39 said:


> I know I'll take a beating for asking this but I searched this forum and couldn't find a topic. So, for switched receptacles do you normally install them ground up or ground down?
> 
> For apartment building the owner is asking that we do something to make it clear to the residents that it is a switched receptacle. We were also going to make the switched outlets a different color from unswitched outlets.
> 
> I'm ready now for my punishment.


I must of missed that. I read something different from the OP


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Dennis posted the article earlier saying that if you switch both outlets in the duplex, you still need an unswitched outlet next to it for the minimum required spacing. So thats why everyone always bi-wires the outlet in order to switch only one.


That only pertains to new work, not old work/additions/alterations.


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Yes, exactly. The OP said that he was only going to switch one of the 2 outlets in the duplex.



There are no 2 outlets in a duplex receptacle, only 2 receptacles in an outlet.

But I knew what you meant...


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> I must of missed that. I read something different from the OP


 Here is what he said:



bill39 said:


> So, for the switched receptacles I'm going with ground up, *top will be switched, bottom will be unswitched*, brown in color for them and the cover plates will be ivory (this color combo is per the owner). Unswitched receptacles will be ivory w/ivory plates.





bill39 said:


> Yes, ground up for switched.
> Ground down for unswitched, since there are more of those than the switched type.


 Switching 1 outlet in the duplex is the standard due to the code requirement, and what I believe most conversations default to.



Helmut said:


> That only pertains to new work, not old work/additions/alterations.


 Yes, I guess we could argue that it's possible that the OP is doing old work, if you'd like. But I would rather argue this: 


Helmut said:


> There are no 2 outlets in a duplex receptacle, only 2 receptacles in an outlet.


 :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The neutral from the PoCo gets bonded to the meter can. My assumption is that the current would flow from the hot leg to the meter can and back thru the neutral. I'm not picturing where it enters the house in that situation.
> 
> I pull meters all the time so this is something I would really like to understand.


The only other thing I can think of would be a heavy load situation whereby an arc flask occurred when the meter left the jaw.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The neutral from the PoCo gets bonded to the meter can. My assumption is that the current would flow from the hot leg to the meter can and back thru the neutral. I'm not picturing where it enters the house in that situation.
> 
> I pull meters all the time so this is something I would really like to understand.


Loose neutral at poco, and if there is good bonding to copper water pipes, I think there could be enough current to start that fire.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Timer icons:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> What exactly happened? Why did a short between the hot leg and neutral/ground at the can cause a fire on the other side of a brick wall?


These pictures might help explain it. Every path was fried. The lineman repeatedly shorted the conductor trying to pull the meter.

It was 3pm on a Friday.









Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That wouldn't have happened if they used a Kenny clamp.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

johngary2 said:


> *There is nothing in the code that says how to a receptacle *- in many commercial installations they are installed with the grounding slot in the up position - because if you drop a metal paper clip down onto a plug that is not installed all the way - you will short out the receptacle and maybe start a fire- maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what does the AHJ have to do with this?


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> So what does the AHJ have to do with this?


Nothing, if it isn't in the code they don't get to have an opinion on it. They have to call out the violation and let you know what code you violated.

Can't just make stuff up, although they like to try.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

TGGT said:


> These pictures might help explain it. Every path was fried. The lineman repeatedly shorted the conductor trying to pull the meter.
> 
> It was 3pm on a Friday.
> 
> ...


I still do not understand this. None of it makes much sense. Pretty rare when bad things happen downstream.


----------



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

johngary2 said:


> There is nothing in the code that says how to a receptacle - in many commercial installations they are installed with the grounding slot in the up position - because if you drop a metal paper clip down onto a plug that is not installed all the way - you will short out the receptacle and maybe start a fire- maybe.
> 
> 
> The code calls out different colors to indicate the special type such as a receptacle with an isolated ground - usually marked with a special marking.
> ...


And to think I spent all these years trying to figure out how to make my customers happy. :crying:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I still do not understand this. None of it makes much sense. Pretty rare when bad things happen downstream.


The ground bar was cooked off inside too. Maybe as paths back got fried, current took less ideal paths into the house the towards the waterline bond and super heating everything on the way. The wood studs caught fire going towards the water pipe and kitchen.

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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Here's some inside photos.









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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

johngary2 said:


> There is nothing in the code that says how to a receptacle - in many commercial installations they are installed with the grounding slot in the up position - because if you drop a metal paper clip down onto a plug that is not installed all the way - you will short out the receptacle and maybe start a fire- maybe.
> 
> 
> :


So now it's a paper clip?

We've had coins, coat hangers, bobby pins, and even picture frames.

Yet no-one has ever seen a fire start because the ground pin has been down all these years.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Helmut said:


> So now it's a paper clip?
> 
> *We've had coins, coat hangers, bobby pins, and even picture frames*.
> 
> Yet no-one has ever seen a fire start because the ground pin has been down all these years.


Don't forget the metal comb that falls out of a back pocket. :biggrin:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Helmut said:


> So now it's a paper clip?
> 
> We've had coins, coat hangers, bobby pins, and even picture frames.
> 
> Yet no-one has ever seen a fire start because the ground pin has been down all these years.


My cousins brothers sisters aunt who was married to this guy, he knew someone who actually saw it happen.:vs_whistle:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> So now it's a paper clip?
> 
> We've had coins, coat hangers, bobby pins, and even picture frames.
> 
> Yet no-one has ever seen a fire start because the ground pin has been down all these years.





flyboy said:


> Don't forget the metal comb that falls out of a back pocket. :biggrin:


Metal rulers is what I always heard. If one of those falls, it's all over.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm going to write in a suggestion for a new code.
It should be violation to have an outlet receptacle below 
the desk / table top because of these fire hazards.

This code should only apply to commercial jobs because 
everyone knows there are no paper clips , coat hangers or 
metal rulers on a residential property.

I will get right on this....after the holidays.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

In the civilized world they don't have these arguments 

http://www.bs1363.org.uk/


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

TGGT said:


> Here's some inside photos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man oh man, my first impression of those pictures was that lightning caused this not someone simply trying to pull a meter. I would have been one very pissed homeowner! :vs_mad:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

It is wild how a simple question (In this case by Bill39) can turn into 167 replies/quotes... Many of which have nothing to do with the original question! :vs_laugh:


We probably have blown poor ole Bill's mind, I notice that he quit responding. :smile:


This is more fun than chewing out a dumb SH counterman! I LOVE IT!


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

jelhill said:


> It is wild how a simple question (In this case by Bill39) can turn into 167 replies/quotes... Many of which have nothing to do with the original question! :vs_laugh:
> 
> 
> We probably have blown poor ole Bill's mind, I notice that he quit responding. :smile:
> ...


Jelhill, I believe this post shows the true nature of electricians and reminds me of the old saying that goes something like this: “The reason you shouldn’t get down in the mud to wrestle a pig is because you discover he likes it.”

I checked out several posts ago as I had to move on. It was amazing how many people apparantly have trouble following a discussion. Thanks again for all of the responses and Merry Christmas!


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

bill39 said:


> Jelhill, I believe this post shows the true nature of electricians and reminds me of the old saying that goes something like this: “The reason you shouldn’t get down in the mud to wrestle a pig is because you discover he likes it.”
> 
> I checked out several posts ago as I had to move on. *It was amazingly FUN how many people apparantly have trouble following a discussion*. Thanks again for all of the responses and Merry Christmas!


Fixed it!:vs_laugh:


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

bill39 said:


> Jelhill, I believe this post shows the true nature of electricians and reminds me of the old saying that goes something like this: “The reason *you shouldn’t get down in the mud to wrestle a pig is because you discover he likes it.”*
> 
> I checked out several posts ago as I had to move on. It was amazing how many people apparantly have trouble following a discussion. Thanks again for all of the responses and Merry Christmas!



Your pig analogy is very profound... there are ET members who sent me private messages, and in so many words have expressed the same thing. :smile:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by johngary2 View Post
> There is nothing in the code that says how to a receptacle - in many commercial installations they are installed with the grounding slot in the up position - because if you drop a metal paper clip down onto a plug that is not installed all the way - you will short out the receptacle and maybe start a fire- maybe.


And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if., And if, and if, and if, And if, and if, and if A frog had brains he would not bump his azz on the ground.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

jelhill said:


> Man oh man, my first impression of those pictures was that lightning caused this not someone simply trying to pull a meter. I would have been one very pissed homeowner! :vs_mad:


It was an old widow. She didn't seem all that upset about it. The utility paid for all the repairs and put her up in a hotel.

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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

TGGT said:


> It was an old widow. She didn't seem all that upset about it. The utility paid for all the repairs and put her up in a hotel.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Picking on old widows.... Not very good press for the POCO. :vs_OMG:


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## Sparkykurt (Dec 23, 2018)

*up or down?*

I'd split the switched outlets and install two of them kitty-corner from each other. That way you're covered with different bed layouts. Use split receptacles so if the user wants to put a bedside lamp and an alarm clock on the night stand both will work properly. Lastly, I wouldn't change the orientation or the color, I would just mark them with a label maker.


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## armsjac (Dec 12, 2017)

eddy current said:


> They don’t allow us to do it anymore. Only the utility can do it. When we schedule a service upgrade, they come and remove it and keep it so they can install it. They also will not install it until they have heard from the inspector.



I received an email two days ago from one of our local power companies (the largest one). They are going to offer an online course to licensed electricians who will be permitted to pull and reinstall meters on their lines after passing the course. Inspections will still be required of course.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

jelhill said:


> Picking on old widows.... Not very good press for the POCO. :vs_OMG:


It doesn't look like it was the poco's fault. Last person to touch it owns it so its good pr to pay for repairs.

From the pictures it looks like the top right jaw came free (may be loose and melted its plastic holder). When the meter was pulled it came free with the jaw and cable still attached. This probably hit meter panel cover (no picture so guessing) and caused a fault that the ground cable could not clear. 
Looks like a ground bond on the inside panel that was on the same buss as the neutrals. With the wire to the ground rod burnt out the easiest path is backwards to the inside panel to neutral. 

If the jaw hadn't failed it wouldn't have happened, If the ground was larger it would have cleared the fault with out turning red hot, If the meter was the bonding point it wouldn't have burnt the inside panel.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

gpop said:


> It doesn't look like it was the poco's fault. Last person to touch it owns it so its good pr to pay for repairs.
> 
> From the pictures it looks like the top right jaw came free (may be loose and melted its plastic holder). When the meter was pulled it came free with the jaw and cable still attached. This probably hit meter panel cover (no picture so guessing) and caused a fault that the ground cable could not clear.
> Looks like a ground bond on the inside panel that was on the same buss as the neutrals. With the wire to the ground rod burnt out the easiest path is backwards to the inside panel to neutral.
> ...


Man! I have been in the trade over 50 years and have never seen that one before. What were the odds??


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Those meter blocks snap all the time down here. A lot of these meters are underground fed. The soil expands and contracts frequently and stresses the connections. This is the most common repair the poco would call us for. The guy knew better, but he was rushing to finish his shift on a Friday. 

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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

TGGT said:


> Those meter blocks snap all the time *down here*. A lot of these meters are underground fed. The soil expands and contracts frequently and stresses the connections. This is the most common repair the poco would call us for. The guy knew better, but he was rushing to finish his shift on a Friday.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Where is "down here?"


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

jelhill said:


> Where is "down here?"


DFW, Texas.

What they do now for underground feeds is partially sleeve a larger PVC conduit over a smaller PVC conduit coming out of the ground and leave some slack on the conductors. The grounds swell and recede with rain and droughts.

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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Here's a few more photos of this kind of problem.

Also, just FYI poco never used noalox on aluminum connections for what it's worth.









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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

eddy current said:


> A lawsuit, really? :vs_laugh:
> 
> Considering there is no code against installing a receptacle with the ground pin down, How could there possibly be a lawsuit against the installer?


You got to think about it. Code might say one thing but a company might have their own codes that they want you to follow on top of the code book. (I run into this all the time, I'm sure everyone does)... If they want you to install all receptacles ground up, and you install them ground down because that's what you are used to doing, and in my earlier (true story) example occurs and catches the cloths/wall on fire, then there is your lawsuit... Not sure why this is debatable lol


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

JasonCo said:


> You got to think about it. Code might say one thing but a company might have their own codes that they want you to follow on top of the code book. (I run into this all the time, I'm sure everyone does)... If they want you to install all receptacles ground up, and you install them ground down because that's what you are used to doing, and in my earlier (true story) example occurs and catches the cloths/wall on fire, then there is your lawsuit... Not sure why this is debatable lol


Just because your boss wants something done a certain way, doesn't really mean it's the best way, the safest way, or even the most accepted industry practice.

Guys make their own silly excuses to justify their way all the time.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > A lawsuit, really?
> ...


Regardless of how the customer wants it, there is NO LAW or proven danger against installing them a certain way so there would be no grounds (pun intended) for a lawsuit. 

They can get money from you or withhold payment because you didn’t do it as spec’d, but no way is it dangerous so no lawsuit.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Personally I feel like ground up is safer. Honestly both ways are acceptable, but if you want to get super nitpicky and technical about it, I personally choose ground up. I agree though, companies have pretty silly rules and regulations sometimes to cover their own asses. We unfortunately have to follow those rules, and whatever the blueprint says, that's what I have to do no matter what. *Unless the GC overrides it.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Personally I feel like ground up is safer. Honestly both ways are acceptable, but if you want to get super nitpicky and technical about it, I personally choose ground up. I agree though, companies have pretty silly rules and regulations sometimes to cover their own asses. We unfortunately have to follow those rules, and whatever the blueprint says, that's what I have to do no matter what. *Unless the GC overrides it.


Your allowed to feel anyway you want about it but there is no code and no grounds for a lawsuit, period.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Regardless of how the customer wants it, there is NO LAW or proven danger against installing them a certain way so there would be no grounds (pun intended) for a lawsuit.
> 
> They can get money from you or withhold payment because you didn’t do it as spec’d, but no way is it dangerous so no lawsuit.


I would have to disagree with "no proven danger" "no way is it dangerous". Like I get it, in the whole ground scheme of things, ground up or ground down, it's not a big deal. What I do know is, I 100% ran into a situation where a plug behind a bunch of cloths hangers had something plugged into it. The male end of the plug was hanging out of the socket, a cloths hanger fell and hit the hot/neutral and caused a bunch of smoke and there was a small/brief fire that was caused from it. That is a 100% true story that I personally ran into when called out to this photography company. I'd say 99% of the time there is no danger, but just through me seeing it with my own eyes, I am positive that would of never happened with ground up. That is all I'm saying. Call me a BS liar or whatever you choose, I can't prove to you over the internet that this service call actually happened, but it did lol.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless of how the customer wants it, there is NO LAW or proven danger against installing them a certain way so there would be no grounds (pun intended) for a lawsuit.
> ...


Not calling you a liar, I’m saying that one way is not safer than the other. 

Electrical is the cause of many fires. I have seen plenty of good, up to code installations burn up for many reasons. 


But to say one way is dangerous is wrong. Again how many millions are there out there that did not cause a fire?
If installing the ground down was an actual dangerous installation, there would be codes against it, but there isn’t. Not in the US, not in Canada.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> I would have to disagree with "no proven danger" "no way is it dangerous". Like I get it, in the whole ground scheme of things, ground up or ground down, it's not a big deal. What I do know is, I 100% ran into a situation where a plug behind a bunch of cloths hangers had something plugged into it. The male end of the plug was hanging out of the socket, a cloths hanger fell and hit the hot/neutral and caused a bunch of smoke and there was a small fire that was caused from it. That is a 100% true story that I personally ran into when called out to this photography company. I'd say 99% of the time there is no danger, but just through me seeing it with my own eyes, I am positive that would of never happened with ground up. That is all I'm saying.


You can't be positive that this wouldn't have happened with the ground up. The cloths hanger would have hit the ground prong and then fell to one side. If it fell to the side with the hot prong, it would span between the ground and the hot prong down below it while the hanger was on a 45 degree angle as it fell. 

This is not an issue. Your quote of this not being dangerous 99% of the time is way off. 99% of the time would mean it happens one out of every 100 outlets installed with the ground down. In reality, it's in the millions, maybe billions.

If there was any risk whatsoever, they would simply require the ground up by code. But there is no danger. None, nada.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Code book isn't perfect, I mean not that long ago the code book used to look like a template lol. My school has every code book in a display case. I don't think we are done improving the codes and safety in the book just yet, there still could be some improvements imo. If you do a brief google search about people discussing ground up vs ground down, every single search link has someone talking about the dangers of something falling down and hitting the hot prongs, vs having something fall down and hit the ground prong. Seams like many have the same mindset as what I am also thinking. 

No it isn't in the codebook, doesn't mean people should disagree with it sense it's not in it. I don't think so. Like I said, does it matter? NOT REALLY, but I think it is SLIGHTLY safer if you do ground up for the very reason of things falling down and hitting the hot prongs. This is brought up literally in almost all the links where people discuss the topic.

Edit: Fun fact, most health care facilities require ground up, FOR THIS VERY REASON! They don't want objects/tools falling down and hitting the hot prong. It is talked about everywhere online now that I'm actually googling it...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> If you do a brief google search about people discussing ground up vs ground down, every single search link has someone talking about the dangers of something falling down and hitting the hot prongs, vs having something fall down and hit the ground prong. Seams like many have the same mindset as what I am also thinking.
> ~
> This is brought up literally in almost all the links where people discuss the topic.


 Yes, but it is all just conjecture. 

If you do a Google search for how to install a wirenut, most of the write-ups will tell you to use electrical tape to hold the wirenuts on. 

I often tell the story of the tamper resistant outlets. When the code first started requiring them I was against it. I said that it was a stupid requirement and unnecessary. Someone else posts the reports showing thousands of hospital visits per year by kids who got shocked or burned from sticking something in the outlet, so I never complained about tamper resistant outlets again.

Show me these instances of something metal falling on a plug and causing an issue. Everyone has a story of how they saw it with their own eyes, but there is no documented evidence of it happening. If it actually happened more than a handful of times out of billions, it *would* most certainly be documented.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

This is just dumb, and so is the thinking that if something falls on a ground pin it won't continue to fall down and then make contact with the ground pin and the hot terminal. 

If this was such an inherent danger, then it would have been addressed and we wouldn't need to argue the point, as all the empirical data would support the need to be ground up.

The data doesn't support it beyond the "Once my cousins sisters aunt knew a guy who worked at a hanger factory.....".


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Well this goes back to what I was saying. 99.99999%* of the time you aren't going to have an issue. BUT I have personally seen an issue where a cloths hanger fell and crossed hot and neutral. I guess it comes down to people not believing something is true because they've never seen it. VS me who has seen it with my own eyes o_0... Idk what else to say. Common sense tells me that if a male end of a plug is hanging out of an outlet (which happens all the time EVERYWHERE), then there is a VERY SLIGHT DANGER of something skinny enough falling down and hitting the hot prong. You can't even debate this, we are talking about gravity lol. Is it going to be an issue, like I said, probably not. I guess you have to get a service call and see it with your own eyes, idk what else to say.

Is it a big enough deal to change the code book, I guess not. Is it safer to install receptacles ground up, YES!!!! As I have seen a problem happen. But if your argument is that it is no different because you haven't seen enough proof, then go ahead and stick with that. I will agree to disagree! I must go out, have errands to run.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Well this goes back to what I was saying. 99.99999%* of the time you aren't going to have an issue. BUT I have personally seen an issue where a cloths hanger fell and crossed hot and neutral. I guess it comes down to people not believing something is true because they've never seen it. VS me who has seen it with my own eyes o_0... Idk what else to say. Common sense tells me that if a male end of a plug is hanging out of an outlet (which happens all the time EVERYWHERE), then there is a VERY SLIGHT DANGER of something skinny enough falling down and hitting the hot prong. You can't even debate this, we are talking about gravity lol. Is it going to be an issue, like I said, probably not. I guess you have to get a service call and see it with your own eyes, idk what else to say.


You're being silly.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Anybody with the filing fee can sue anyone at any time for any reason.

It's one of the first week of law school questions.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

JasonCo said:


> Well this goes back to what I was saying. 99.99999%* of the time you aren't going to have an issue. BUT I have personally seen an issue where a cloths hanger fell and crossed hot and neutral. I guess it comes down to people not believing something is true because they've never seen it. VS me who has seen it with my own eyes o_0... Idk what else to say. *Common sense tells me that if a male end of a plug is hanging out of an outlet (which happens all the time EVERYWHERE)*, then there is a VERY SLIGHT DANGER of something skinny enough falling down and hitting the hot prong. You can't even debate this, we are talking about gravity lol. Is it going to be an issue, like I said, probably not. I guess you have to get a service call and see it with your own eyes, idk what else to say.
> 
> Is it a big enough deal to change the code book, I guess not. Is it safer to install receptacles ground up, YES!!!! As I have seen a problem happen. But if your argument is that it is no different because you haven't seen enough proof, then go ahead and stick with that. I'm good with agreeing to disagree


This is an issue with the receptacle and it should be replaced, it has lost its tension.

Based upon that line of reasoning then we need to go back to using GRC on residential homes, because there is always that off chance that someone could pierce the NM cable with a screw or nail.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Switched said:


> This is an issue with the receptacle and it should be replaced, it has lost its tension.
> 
> Based upon that line of reasoning then we need to go back to using GRC on residential homes, because there is always that off chance that someone could pierce the NM cable with a screw or nail.


How many people in homes/businesses are going to hire a electrical company to do tension tests on all their receptacles, and have us replace the bad ones. Only hospitals have me do this, no one else... I agree, there are millions of plugs out there that need to be replaced, but no one gives a ****, they won't replace them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> This is an issue with the receptacle and it should be replaced, it has lost its tension.
> 
> Based upon that line of reasoning then we need to go back to using GRC on residential homes, because there is always that off chance that someone could pierce the NM cable with a screw or nail.


I would say that there is a much better chance of someone piercing romex with a screw or nail, and that it actually happens more often than something metallic falling on the prongs of a plug hanging from an outlet.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I would say that there is a much better chance of someone piercing romex with a screw or nail, and that it actually happens more often than something metallic falling on the prongs of a plug hanging from an outlet.


Exactly the point, one is a real danger that almost all of us have probably seen, and one is almost mythological in nature. Yet NM cable is still allowed and the preferred method for wiring residential homes.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I would say that there is a much better chance of someone piercing romex with a screw or nail, and that it actually happens more often than something metallic falling on the prongs of a plug hanging from an outlet.


The argument isn't how likely it is or isn't going to happen.

FACTS: Plugs lose tension over time, plugs will start to fall out of the socket, hot prongs are now exposed, gravity is real, there is a chance of something skinny falling down the wall and hitting the hot prong. 

This is way more likely than something defying the laws of physicals and falling upwards and hitting the hot prong. Can we not all agree with this LOL??? 

I am not arguing the likelihood of a freak accident occurring or not occurring. But to tell me that there is no danger at all when I have literally seen it with my own eyes, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

The chances of it causing a fire is so small. First thing, if it did actually happen, the breaker would trip. Second How many outlets are there installed in the US with the ground down that this did not happen to? There are about 150 million homes in the us. Let’s say there are only 20 receptacles in each, that would be about 3 billion!!!! 

Yet, other than the odd person who said they’ve seen it, there is not a single documented case of it causing a fire. And that is why it is not a code violation and never will be.

Out of all the times this silly arguement has come up here, I’ve never seen it get to 200 posts. Most of the time a moderator locks it because it is such a ridiculous topic.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> The argument isn't how likely it is or isn't going to happen.
> 
> FACTS: Plugs lose tension over time, plugs will start to fall out of the socket, hot prongs are now exposed, gravity is real, there is a chance of something skinny falling down the wall and hitting the hot prong.
> 
> ...


You are bordering on lunacy.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Let me ask you @JasonCo, if you were asked to install a receptacle ground down, would you refuse because you consider it dangerous?


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Let me ask you @JasonCo, if you were asked to install a receptacle ground down, would you refuse because you consider it dangerous?


No, because I don't care. Code book doesn't specify, so I have to go off of whatever the customer wants. I've already said there is a small chance of something actually happening, BUT SENSE I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN, and common sense tells me that gravity is real, then there is a chance. End of ****ing story lol.

I gotta go do errands now. I also think this is a silly argument because to me it's common sense, but that's why this is entertaining and why I am still here lol. But yeah I must go now  it was fun guys


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Let me ask you @JasonCo, if you were asked to install a receptacle ground down, would you refuse because you consider it dangerous?


I'm thinking he would refuse even if it was a cord cap like this that was going to be plugged into it... which will add more strain on the receptacle and cause it to wear out and pull out of the receptacle more.









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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> I also think this is a silly argument because to me it's common sense


Well, no.

If it were common sense, then all of us would install them that way.

Your line of thinking is the exact opposite of common sense.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I'm thinking he would refuse even if it was a cord cap like this that was going to be plugged into it... which will add more strain on the receptacle and cause it to wear out and pull out of the receptacle more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In addition to right angle plugs like this, wall warts and USB chargers will often be polarized, which means they need to be plugged in a certain way even with them not having a ground prong. And that way is with the hot (smaller) prong on the right side. 

So if you put the outlet in upside down (with the ground up) then the wall wart needs to be plugged in upside down, which is very bad since all of the weight pulls it out of the outlet and could easily create a poor connection and overheating.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JasonCo said:


> In all new constructions projects, I go all grounds up. In existing buildings, I do whatever is already existing. The reason I prefer ground up is because when you plug something in, the ground prong will be on top of the hot prongs. One example of why this is a good thing: I went to a service call one time where they had a plug behind a cloths hanger. They had a fan plugged into it and the male end was not all the way pushed in. One of the cloths hangers fell off the wrack and hit the hot and neutral prong and caught the wall on fire... This would of never happened with ground up. There are MANY things that can fall down and touch neutral to hot and cause a fire, this is just one example. So always go ground up on new constructions, it'll save you from a potential lawsuit if the building burns down because of this freakish scenario occurring.


Has nobody wondered why there was a receptacle where the hangers are? It makes me suspect that the receptacle is in a closet of some sort. He should have put a blank on the receptacle or used wiremold to relocate it to a safer location.

This sounds like a case of the receptacle being in the wrong spot. By this logic, you're installing kitchen counter receptacles with the ground up "because it's safer". How often have you had a coat hanger fall on a receptacle on a kitchen counter under the upper cabinets? Or in the bathroom? Or outdoors? Or in a hallway? This is a bad example. 

Edit: to add to This, do you install a range receptacle ground up because it's safer? Even though (at lease Ontario code) says to install them with the blades parallel to the ground?

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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

JasonCo said:


> Personally I feel like ground up is safer. Honestly both ways are acceptable, but if you want to get super nitpicky and technical about it, I personally choose ground up. I agree though, companies have pretty silly rules and regulations sometimes to cover their own asses. We unfortunately have to follow those rules, and whatever the blueprint says, that's what I have to do no matter what. *Unless the GC overrides it.


how is ground up safer?

It is required that the ground be the first connected and last disconnected on a cord plug. By rocking a ground up plug, you risk losing that ground connection first.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Well, no.
> 
> If it were common sense, then all of us would install them that way.
> 
> Your line of thinking is the exact opposite of common sense.


People don't install them that way because the likelihood of something happening is super slim. My argument isn't how likely or unlikely it is to happen, my argument is that there is a POSSIBILITYYYYYYYYYY of something to happen. Which I have personally seen. My line of thinking is correct, you simply have a problem agreeing that there is a slim chance, which is my entire argument. 

SO IF THERE IS A SLIM CHANCE, that means that it is SLIGHTLY SAFER to install them ground up. Why do you think hospitals have implemented the ground up rule? (IEEE Std. 602-1986 (Electric Systems in Health Care Facilities)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> how is ground up safer?
> 
> It is required that the ground be the first connected and last disconnected on a cord plug. By rocking a ground up plug, you risk losing that ground connection first.


Do you have any aspiration to one day become an electrician?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> People don't install them that way because the likelihood of something happening is super slim. My argument isn't how likely or unlikely it is to happen, my argument is that there is a POSSIBILITYYYYYYYYYY of something to happen. Which I have personally seen. My line of thinking is correct, you simply have a problem agreeing that there is a slim chance, which is my entire argument.
> 
> SO IF THERE IS A SLIM CHANCE, that means that it is SLIGHTLY SAFER to install them ground up. Why do you think hospitals have implemented the ground up rule? (IEEE Std. 602-1986 (Electric Systems in Health Care Facilities)


It's not safer. It could only be safer if there is a danger to begin with, which there is not.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Has nobody wondered why there was a receptacle where the hangers are? It makes me suspect that the receptacle is in a closet of some sort. He should have put a blank on the receptacle or used wiremold to relocate it to a safer location.
> 
> This sounds like a case of the receptacle being in the wrong spot. By this logic, you're installing kitchen counter receptacles with the ground up "because it's safer". How often have you had a coat hanger fall on a receptacle on a kitchen counter under the upper cabinets? Or in the bathroom? Or outdoors? Or in a hallway? This is a bad example.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


This wasn't in a closet. This was at a photography place where you go and they dress you up with costumes and take your picture with your kids or baby or whatever reasons you have for wanting a professional picture taken. They leased out a space, and had rolling cloth hangers propped up against the walls in the photography rooms.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It's not safer. It could only be safer if there is a danger to begin with, which there is not.


Okay, lets just say you are right, there is no danger (even though I've seen a burnt ****ing wall with burnt ****ing cloths because of it). Let's just say you are right. Wouldn't you want to prevent any possibility of a breaker tripping because something fell from a wall or near a wall. These people have to now spend money to get an electrician out to reset a breaker because they have no idea why their outlets stopped working. Which could of been prevented with a ground up, AT LEAST you can agree with me on that LOL


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JasonCo said:


> This wasn't in a closet. This was at a photography place where you go and they dress you up with costumes and take your picture with your kids or baby or whatever reasons you have for wanting a professional picture taken. They leased out a space, and had rolling cloth hangers propped up against the walls in the photography rooms.


Context. makes more sense now.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is getting crazy, and lacks all common sense.

A metal coat hanger (or a metal ruler like I always heard the legend told) is not going to balance on a tiny little ground prong. It will hit the ground prong and then fall to the left or right. There is a 50/50 chance that it will fall in the direction of the hot prong and hit it while still touching the ground prong, creating the same exact situation as if it touched the hot and neutral.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Okay, lets just say you are right, there is no danger (even though I've seen a burnt ****ing wall with burnt ****ing cloths because of it). Let's just say you are right. Wouldn't you want to prevent any possibility of a breaker tripping because something fell from a wall or near a wall. These people have to now spend money to get an electrician out to reset a breaker because they have no idea why their outlets stopped working. Which could of been prevented with a ground up, AT LEAST you can agree with me on that LOL


No, none of us agree with you.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

The person who pushed the clothes rack against the receptacle with a plug in it is probably the same person who pushes furniture & appliances up against a plug in a receptacle. My point being you can't fix stupid.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JasonCo said:


> Okay, lets just say you are right, there is no danger (even though I've seen a burnt ****ing wall with burnt ****ing cloths because of it). Let's just say you are right. Wouldn't you want to prevent any possibility of a breaker tripping because something fell from a wall or near a wall. These people have to now spend money to get an electrician out to reset a breaker because they have no idea why their outlets stopped working. Which could of been prevented with a ground up, AT LEAST you can agree with me on that LOL


I know here in Ontario, we are now required to install AFCI protection for most of the receptacles in a home. Installing the receptacle ground up or down does not really matter (in theory). 

I think AFCI protection is a gimmick. I installed an AFCI breaker the other day and there was still a worn out receptacle with a space heater. Moving the cord plugged in caused arcing. Didn't trip the breaker tho. 

Regardless Of that, residential should always be installed ground down, And commercial (like your coat hanger incident), should be installed ground up. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Okay, lets just say you are right, there is no danger (even though I've seen a burnt ****ing wall with burnt ****ing cloths because of it). Let's just say you are right. Wouldn't you want to prevent any possibility of a breaker tripping because something fell from a wall or near a wall. These people have to now spend money to get an electrician out to reset a breaker because they have no idea why their outlets stopped working. Which could of been prevented with a ground up, AT LEAST you can agree with me on that LOL


Curious, did you tell them that every receptacle in the place must be turned around or people’s lives are in danger?


Who uses metal hangers nowadays?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I know here in Ontario, we are now required to install AFCI protection for most of the receptacles in a home. Installing the receptacle ground up or down does not really matter (in theory).
> 
> I think AFCI protection is a gimmick. I installed an AFCI breaker the other day and there was still a worn out receptacle with a space heater. Moving the cord plugged in caused arcing. Didn't trip the breaker tho.
> 
> ...


Disagree, there is no reason to install them ground up ever.

ETA. There also is no reason to install them ground down. It doesn’t matter either way


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I know here in Ontario, we are now required to install AFCI protection for most of the receptacles in a home. Installing the receptacle ground up or down does not really matter (in theory).
> 
> I think AFCI protection is a gimmick. I installed an AFCI breaker the other day and there was still a worn out receptacle with a space heater. Moving the cord plugged in caused arcing. Didn't trip the breaker tho.
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree, in theory it shouldn't matter because AFCI will prevent arcing from occurring no matter up or down, in theory it should prevent an arc fault and thus prevent a fire from starting, at least that's what they say! Basically the same with GFCI, measuring the potential difference in current between the hot and neutral and should trip no matter what, preventing a accident from happening as well. 

I honestly never install AFCI outlets, it's always GFCI that I install 99% of the time in commercial. 

I know people who only install outlets ground up, I guess those are the people that need to chap in on this thread haha


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HackWork said:


> You can't be positive that this wouldn't have happened with the ground up. The cloths hanger would have hit the ground prong and then fell to one side. If it fell to the side with the hot prong, it would span between the ground and the hot prong down below it while the hanger was on a 45 degree angle as it fell.





HackWork said:


> A metal coat hanger (or a metal ruler like I always heard the legend told) is not going to balance on a tiny little ground prong. It will hit the ground prong and then fall to the left or right. There is a 50/50 chance that it will fall in the direction of the hot prong and hit it while still touching the ground prong, creating the same exact situation as if it touched the hot and neutral.


^ I posted how ground up could be just as dangerous twice, but Jason ignored it both times.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> ^ I posted how ground up could be just as dangerous twice, but Jason ignored it both times.


You aren't doing simple math. The chunk of metal falls, hits the ground, and has a 50%/50% chance of hitting the hot. YOU even said that. So 50% chance is way better than 100% chance wouldn't you agree? I think part of the issue is that you refuse to agree with anything I say lol
You are a straight male, do you agree with me at least with that?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> You aren't doing simple math. The chunk of metal falls, hits the ground, and has a 50%/50% chance of hitting the hot. YOU even said that. So 50% chance is way better than 100% chance wouldn't you agree? I think part of the issue is that you refuse to agree with anything I say lol
> HackWork, you are a straight male, not sure if you would even want to agree with me even though it's true, hopefully


I would have no problem agreeing with you if anything you said made sense.

All of the reasons you brought up have been refuted, some of them multiple times. 

It's not just me who disagrees with you, it's everyone. 

It is no safer to install the outlet with the ground up.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Everyone else as in a couple people, let me just throw that out there... All you have to do is think about it in a logical way, it's that simple. 

-Tension fails over time
-Prongs begin to fall out of outlet and becomes exposed
-Gravity is real
-Something falls and hits the hot/neutral and causes smoke and a big arc flash.
-What can arc faults/ arc flashes lead to? They lead to heat, they lead to fires

You are telling me that doesn't make sense to you? You are telling me that you don't agree with this lol. WAIT WAIT WAIT, I KNOW IT IS UNLIKELY!!!! That is not the argument, the argument is if it makes sense to you? Even if it is unlikely, Yes or no?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Everyone else as in a couple people


 No, everyone. Ground dow is the way that it is done. Hospitals have ground up due to etiquette and tradition. There are a lot of job specs that don't make much sense and are based off of ignorance and not actual safety.



> All you have to do is think about it in a logical way, it's that simple.


 Your logic falls short, a we have explained.



> You are telling me that doesn't make sense to you?


 Yes, it makes no sense whatsoever. How many more times do I need to tell you? 



> You are telling me that you don't agree with this lol. WAIT WAIT WAIT, I KNOW IT IS UNLIKELY!!!! That is not the argument, the argument is if it makes sense to you? Even if it is unlikely, Yes or no?


 Wow, you just don't listen.

Let me try this once more: It makes zero sense to me. None, nada.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

What your not seeing is that if it was such a big issue and safety concern, code would have addressed it. Neither Canadian code nor the NEC have, and receptacles are not a new thing.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

You keep telling me that it makes no sense to you, but when I bring up all the logical points, you fail to comment on them. You simply go back to "your logic is dumb, it makes no sense"... Well explain to me why this makes no sense to you, put meaning behind your words, please. Here I'll post it again

-Tension fails over time
-Prongs begin to fall out of outlet and becomes exposed
-Gravity is real
-Something falls and hits the hot/neutral and causes smoke and a big arc flash.
-What can arc faults/ arc flashes lead to? They lead to heat, they lead to fires

Explain to me why this doesn't make sense to you? (Keep in mind I've already ran into this and have seen it happen in real life). So yes, instead of telling me I'm crazy, explain to me why my reality isn't real, why you don't agree with what I actually saw happen? Please, explain why it makes no sense to you


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> You keep telling me that it makes no sense to you, but when I bring up all the logical points, you fail to comment on them.


 Bologna. I have commented on every single point you made and explained why it is not logical. You just don't want to listen.



> You simply go back to "your logic is dumb, it makes no sense"... Well explain to me why this makes no sense to you, put meaning behind your words, please. Here I'll post it again


 I never said dumb. 



> -Tension fails over time
> -Prongs begin to fall out of outlet and becomes exposed
> -Gravity is real
> -Something falls and hits the hot/neutral and causes smoke and a big arc flash.
> -What can arc faults/ arc flashes lead to? They lead to heat, they lead to fires


 You just posted a fantasy, a fairy tale. I can come up with a fantasy scenario about anything to justify my own silly opinion. 

You haven't posted any logical points of realistic things that happen. Things do not fall into plug prongs. Fires don't happen, there is nothing dangerous. It is all made up in your head.

We have all heard the legends, but there are no documented cases of it happening. So there is no reason to change the way something is done if there is no risk of danger. That is what it comes down to. Read those last sentences 5 times.



> You are telling me that doesn't make sense to you?


 Yes, it makes zero sense at all.



> You are telling me that you don't agree with this lol. WAIT WAIT WAIT, I KNOW IT IS UNLIKELY!!!! That is not the argument, the argument is if it makes sense to you? Even if it is unlikely, Yes or no?


 You have literally copied and pasted your last post. That is how pathetic your argument has become.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Do you realize 99% of electrical devices have no ground prong? Take a look at everything connected to your receptacles - practically nothing's grounded. So position of the receptacle is moot, either way a slim piece of metal will have the same result.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

JasonCo said:


> I am not arguing the likelihood of a freak accident occurring or not occurring. But to tell me that there is no danger at all when I have literally seen it with my own eyes, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.


I doubt it, to be honest.

A clothes hanger fell, while you were looking at it, and didn't trip the OCP, and started a fire? 



Really?

Give you a hundred bucks if you can replicate it on your phone and post it here.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

SMH... I just said "I'll post it again", and called you out on it. Once again you reply with no answer. Instead you call me "pathetic" for re-posting it lol. Here, let me post it again

-Tension fails over time
-Prongs begin to fall out of outlet and becomes exposed
-Gravity is real
-Something falls and hits the hot/neutral and causes smoke and a big arc flash.
-What can arc faults/ arc flashes lead to? They lead to heat, they lead to fires

I'll call you out again, please explain to me why this is a "fantasy scenario" even though this is literally what happens in an arc fault. What part about the above statement is a fantasy scenario? Can you actually explain to me without just calling me out on BS and calling it a fantasy lol. Like can you actually put meaning behind your disagreements? Please, I post it again so you can actually give me a logical reply as to why none of the above makes sense.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Yeah, I think he's lying.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jason, I have looked thru your past posts and see that you have a long history of asking something basic and then arguing with the people who have much more experience than you who are trying to help you.

I have answered all of your questions. I see that you are currently trying to become a journeyman, I just hope you can leave the know-it-all apprentice attitude behind.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Helmut said:


> Yeah, I think he's lying.


I don't know. Maybe he is not lying. Maybe he actually saw one of the 2-4 times that this actually happened. 

You have any idea how many people die each year from cleaning their ears with Q-tips? Or blowing their nose? Or using a vending machine? The answer to all of those is "far more than the amount of people who die from something metal falling on a plug".

We aren't going to change the way billions of people do things because some guy invented some danger.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

Helmut said:


> I doubt it, to be honest.
> 
> A clothes hanger fell, while you were looking at it, and didn't trip the OCP, and started a fire?
> 
> ...


I was called out to troubleshoot and fix a problem this photography company had with one of their receptacles. I get there, The cloths hanger is pushed to the side from where it was originally placed at. Their wall is black all around the receptacle, some of their cloths has smoke/burns on them, the receptacle is black, the cover is black. The male prongs coming off of the fan has arc shorted out marks on the hot and neutral prongs. The cloths hanger has scorch marks on it. I'm pretty ****ing sure you can put 2 and 2 together? I didn't ****ing day dream this lol. If your argument is that I'm simply making this up, then tell me so I can leave, we are all wasting our time haha


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> I don't know. Maybe he is not lying. Maybe he actually saw one of the 2-4 times that this actually happened.
> 
> .


Who has a receptacle in their closet?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you realize *99% of electrical devices have no ground prong*? Take a look at everything connected to your receptacles - practically nothing's grounded. So position of the receptacle is moot, either way a slim piece of metal will have the same result.


Oh the horror!! (Thanks for pointing this out lawnguy)

@JasonCo, what do we do now? Should we install twistlock receptacles everywhere? So many lives are in danger! :surprise:

Seriously, why can you not see that this is not an issue? 

Yes, you saw it happen and it burnt the wall a bit but there was no fire, no lives were lost. Again if it were an issue it would be against code


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

JasonCo said:


> I was called out to troubleshoot and fix a problem this photography company had with one of their receptacles. I get there, The cloths hanger is pushed to the side from where it was originally placed at. Their wall is black all around the receptacle, some of their cloths has smoke/burns on them, the receptacle is black, the cover is black. The male prongs coming off of the fan has arc shorted out marks on the hot and neutral prongs. The cloths hanger has scorch marks on it. I'm pretty ****ing sure you can put 2 and 2 together? I didn't ****ing day dream this lol. If your argument is that I'm simply making this up, then tell me so I can leave, we are all wasting our time haha


Wait, you said you saw this happen with your own eyes?


So now, you didn't see it happen?

Lier


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

eddy current said:


> @JasonCo, what do we do now? Should we install twistlock receptacle everywhere? So many lives are in danger! :surprise:


He'll want bubble covers on all interior receptacles.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

@HackWork , Sigh... This has nothing to do with "apprentice thinking he knows it all" mentality. This is something that actually happened, and I am debating with people who refuse to believe it. You STILL refuse to answer the fantasy scenario I saw with my own eyes, you are saying it's theoretically impossible by calling it a fantasy. Even though it actually happened lol. Everything I have stated is possible. Arc flash is possible, heat produced from it is possible, a fire is possible, specially with cloths pushed up against the receptacle. A male end of a plug sticking out the outlet is possible. Somehow to you this is all fantasy. I can't argue anymore lol, like how can I debate with someone who ignores physics and just calls it all a fantasy...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> @HackWork , Sigh... This has nothing to do with "apprentice thinking he knows it all" mentality. This is something that actually happened, and I am debating with people who refuse to believe it. You STILL refuse to answer the fantasy scenario I saw with my own eyes, you are saying it's theoretically impossible by calling it a fantasy. Even though it actually happened lol. Everything I have stated is possible. Arc flash is possible, heat produced from it is possible, a fire is possible, specially with cloths pushed up against the receptacle. A male end of a plug sticking out the outlet is possible. Somehow to you this is all fantasy. I can't argue anymore lol, like how can I debate with someone who ignores physics and just calls it all a fantasy...


I never said it was impossible, quite the opposite actually. You are ranting and raving instead of reading and learning. THAT is why I mentioned the know-it-all apprentice mentality.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

You guys are just getting stupid with this now, we're all wasting our time. lol. I'm over this haha, I agree to disagree with whoever. End of story. This is like one of 500 threads on the internet with the same argument lol. Here:










Problem solved


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> You guys are just getting stupid with this now, we're all wasting our time. lol. I'm over this haha, I agree to disagree with whoever. End of story. This is like one of 500 threads on the internet with the same argument lol. Here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I mentioned earlier, you will also find 500 threads on the internet with people justifying taping wirenuts on.

But the professionals know the truth. 

One day, hopefully, you will be a professional. But only if you give up this attitude.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I never said it was impossible, quite the opposite actually. You are ranting and raving instead of reading and learning. THAT is why I mentioned the know-it-all apprentice mentality.


Umm I'm pretty sure you called it a "FANTASY scenario"... Oh now you are changing your mind. So now it is an actual scenario that could happen. Okay, we are getting somewhere. So the fact that it COULD happen would lead me to believe that ground up is .00001% safer? If you can't agree with this then you are now contradicting yourself.

Edit: What attitude? I am debating a real scenario that happened to me that up until this point, you have been calling it a fantasy scenario. o_0


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I just did an experiment dropping a metal hanger on a receptacle with the prongs slightly hanging out. 

My whole family is dead, died in the explosion. Three blocks in all directions have been burnt to a crisp. I only survived by the fact I was holding the ground pin at the time of the experiment.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> I just did an experiment dropping a metal hanger on a receptacle with the prongs slightly hanging out.
> 
> My whole family is dead, died in the explosion. Three blocks in all directions have been burnt to a crisp. I only survived by the fact I was holding the ground pin at the time of the experiment.


Sorry for your loss :sad:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Sorry for your loss :sad:


The worst part is I can't remember if I conducted the experiment with the ground up or down?

:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> I was called out to troubleshoot and fix a problem this photography company had with one of their receptacles. I get there, The cloths hanger is pushed to the side from where it was originally placed at. Their wall is black all around the receptacle, some of their cloths has smoke/burns on them, the receptacle is black, the cover is black.* The male prongs coming off of the fan has arc shorted out marks on the hot and neutral prongs. The cloths hanger has scorch marks on it. *I'm pretty ****ing sure you can put 2 and 2 together? I didn't ****ing day dream this lol. If your argument is that I'm simply making this up, then tell me so I can leave, we are all wasting our time haha


so this fan had a ground prong on its cord? 

It obviously did not as none of them do.

So even in this very rare situation you saw, regardless of how the receptacle was oriented, the same thing would have happened right?


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

We all getting too carried away. Switched burning down his house, Helmut being Helmut, me realizing my reality is just a fantasy. We're all screwed, no one wins in the end.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

No, it’s only you who lost.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> The worst part is I can't remember if I conducted the experiment with the ground up or down?
> 
> :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


OK, fine. I’ll try it. I don’t care much about the prostitute in the bathroom.


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

eddy current said:


> so this fan had a ground prong on its cord?
> 
> It obviously did not as none of them do.
> 
> So even in this very rare situation you saw, regardless of how the receptacle was oriented, the same thing would have happened right?


Literally the first image that pulled up that actually showed a cord. This is the type of fan they were using. I guess to get the whole hair/cloths blowing affect when taking the pictures...










Exact type of fan they had, does that not have a ground prong. SMH


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Literally the first image that pulled up that actually showed a cord. This is the type of fan they were using. I guess to get the whole hair/cloths blowing affect when taking the pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, but you do realize that a ground prong is rare on most things right?

And even in your very rare situation, there was no fire, the fire alarms did not go off, no one was injured etc. So why do you feel it is so important to always have ground up?

Did you replace every outlet in that place to ground up when that happened as well?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

JasonCo said:


> Literally the first image that pulled up that actually showed a cord. This is the type of fan they were using. I guess to get the whole hair/cloths blowing affect when taking the pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ever get those errands done?:vs_cool:


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> > Do you realize *99% of electrical devices have no ground prong*? Take a look at everything connected to your receptacles - practically nothing's grounded. So position of the receptacle is moot, either way a slim piece of metal will have the same result.
> ...





Helmut said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > @JasonCo, what do we do now? Should we install twistlock receptacle everywhere? So many lives are in danger!
> ...


I'm thinking he will want twist lock receptacles AND locking bubble covers on everything. Oh and for those receptacles that are too big for a bubble cover, pin and sleeve.

He is also starting to sound like a broken record. Maybe he is a bot and not a human?


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Switched said:


> I just did an experiment dropping a metal hanger on a receptacle with the prongs slightly hanging out.
> 
> My whole family is dead, died in the explosion. Three blocks in all directions have been burnt to a crisp. I only survived by the fact I was holding the ground pin at the time of the experiment.


Do you work for PG&E maybe ?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

catsparky1 said:


> Do you work for PG&E maybe ?


I live in Paradise, but maybe only in my mind.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

For the Canadian guys...



> 72-110 (3) When mounted in other than a horizontal plane, receptacles shall be oriented so that the U-ground slot is uppermost.


^^ That would be SECTION 72 - Mobile home and recreational vehicle parks.


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