# Guys help me please I had to quit a job bc of code bureaucracy maybe there's code aro



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

the code isn't mindless.

what is mindless are the individuals that think that they can spit out a number that will cover the installation of something when they aren't aware, haven't looked at, or don't care what needs to be done for a compliant installation, and aren't willing to pay the piper to do it properly when it turns out they have missed critical items in their estimate (like proper system bonding jumpers and grounding electrodes and their respective conductors, which are all necessary for a safe installation per NEC, whether you like it or not).


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

Mike Holt has a video where if I understood correctly explains how electricity doesn't try to "find ground" it tries to find its path of least resistance which of course is ground many times. If I understand correctly the bonding protects the equipment, the grounding protects the home owner but the grounding electrode is pretty much pointless. What's the purpose of it if I'm misunderstanding? Also I'm glad you put the money issue in those words. It made me feel better, like the issue is not my ethic and its not exaggerated or unrealistic, I forgot it narrows down to "I need to make this much per job so I don't want you to waste money running this ground wire that far nor repairing things". Thank you.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

Have you read art 250 Math?


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

I've skimmed it here and there but I haven't actually spent time learning it, just the basics for code compliance to pass inspections. I might as well not know anything about it but I'm studying it soon. Is there anything in particular you'd like to point out about it?


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

SISYPHUS said:


> Have you read art 250 Math?





Does it have to do with this 



"If that is the case, The standard 1/2" or 5/8" diameter copperclad 8 foot rods can be cut in half and more driven in. Rods are spaced about twice the distance apart as the depth. (8 foot rods are spaced about 16 feet apart, 4 foot deep rods should be spaced about 8 feet apart, etc)"? 



Is there a code backing this up? I doubt they'd ever let me do this but it's nice to know the proper way should it ever come up again for me.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Ground rods and electrodes are for lightning.

They do nothing to the performance of the electrical system.


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

Math123 said:


> Does it have to do with this
> "If that is the case, The standard 1/2" or 5/8" diameter copperclad 8 foot rods can be cut in half and more driven in. Rods are spaced about twice the distance apart as the depth. (8 foot rods are spaced about 16 feet apart, 4 foot deep rods should be spaced about 8 feet apart, etc)"?
> 
> Is there a code backing this up? I doubt they'd ever let me do this but it's nice to know the proper way should it ever come up again for me.





Oh I see the use NOW. 



"Metal parts of electrical equipment 
are grounded (connected to the earth) to reduce induced volt- 
age on metal parts from exterior lightning so as to prevent fires 
from an arc within the building/structure." 



considering arrays are on top of roofs and piped down and then bonded to the rest of the house too I see how that'd be a giant hazard. I knew it just wasn't right, but I thought it was because they they felt like it. Now I see how that's necessary and a REAL giant danger for the HO, there's no way I'll allow that. I'm not doing that even once for the rest of the week I'm helping the owner. Thank you for making me look at that.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Math123 said:


> If I understand correctly the bonding protects the equipment, the grounding protects the home owner but the grounding electrode is pretty much pointless. What's the purpose of it if I'm misunderstanding?




The purpose of installing ground rods is to comply with code. Being code-compliant is reason enough to do it. 

Whether the code is right or not is not important to the day to day work. We all know that the code is imperfect. But you and I aren’t important enough to decide whether we want to follow it or not. That’s what you signed up for. 

If it’s wrong, it will get corrected eventually in some revision or another; it’s always being revised. Until it’s changed, however, it’s got to be followed.

If I disagree with the rules, I still must follow them until they get changed (if ever).


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

tjb said:


> The purpose of installing ground rods is to comply with code. Being code-compliant is reason enough to do it.
> 
> Whether the code is right or not is not important to the day to day work. We all know that the code is imperfect. But you and I aren’t important enough to decide whether we want to follow it or not. That’s what you signed up for.
> 
> ...



Thanks, although this rule is used to dissipate electricity should lightning strike the house, pipe, or array in the roof potentially electrifying everything grounded if I understood correctly. I do agree with you which is why I quit as opposed to compromise and doing it myself.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I believe the auxiliary rod for solar arrays has been nixed from the 2017 code for the reasons you stated. It's such an egregious hazard that inspectors should be waiving that requirement if they're still on 2014.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

TGGT said:


> I believe the auxiliary rod for solar arrays has been nixed from the 2017 code for the reasons you stated. It's such an egregious hazard that inspectors should be waiving that requirement if they're still on 2014.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Thing is I'm working in NY and most of these houses aren't getting "auxiliary" rods they're getting the first one ever because code didn't require rods when the house was built nor when the last service upgrade happened apparently.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Showing my ignorance here (or maybe it’s a local case-by-case basis), but how much does the electrician “own” when he’s doing for example a solar install. What deficiencies (whether according to current or original install code) is he on the hook to address? I don’t think any, unless it’s directly invoked with his work (such as adding AFCI protection when you add on to an outlet circuit sort of thing)?


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

tjb said:


> Showing my ignorance here (or maybe it’s a local case-by-case basis), but how much does the electrician “own” when he’s doing for example a solar install. What deficiencies (whether according to current or original install code) is he on the hook to address? I don’t think any, unless it’s directly invoked with his work (such as adding AFCI protection when you add on to an outlet circuit sort of thing)?



I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer your question but I have an educated guess based on the requirements we currently need to correct or we fail. We need to fix the jumper for the water meter (somehow they don't care to make sure the boiler is jumped), we need to bond the neutral bar at the main panel if it wasn't done before (some haven't for some crazy reason), actually that's it as far as I know. My guesstimate is we're adding a second source of power so they treat it as a mini service so we need to fill service requirements that are non fulfilled so to speak. Also I don't know how much is actual inspectors and how much is liabilities and coverage of them by subcontracting and requiring pictures with proof of these things done.


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

The connection to the water pipe is not the electricians problem since they did not do it. The inspector could require it to be fixed, but the inspector should tell that to the homeowner and not the electrician that is there just to install the PV. Its the homeowners responsibility to keep the electrical components in working order, not any electrician that happens to be there. Around here the PV would get passed and the homeowner would get the orders to correct the grounding.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

My AHJ goes on the basis of $$$$. If the solar job, or any other, is High Dollar, so great that it's equal or greater than the original build they treat the job as if it can no longer be grandfathered; everything has to come up to code, at least as far as the stuff you're directly involved with. 

(The interior of the house figures to still get a pass.) 

The way it's written up, you end up presenting the EXTRA as government required work critical to getting a 'pass.' And solar subsidies around here are STAGGERING. They figure the home owner can well afford it.

By their logic, abusing you is the ONLY way that they can get home owners to un-cluster rotten work that is by now an obvious safety issue. 

The OP's original post comes off as if he simply doesn't want to perform the work; 
doesn't quite know how to perform the work; 
or doesn't know how to present the home owner with an EXTRA required by the Electrical Inspector. (So he's the one to be blamed. Heh.)

Around here we actually love EXTRAS triggered by the Electrical Inspector. 

By definition, they are modifications demanded that were not a part of the original contract. 

EXTRAS should be pure gravy, what most contractors live for.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Per the OP

cutting ground rods in half would be a code violation
(they have to be 8' long (per 250.52 NFPA 70 2014 code)

250.53(A) (2) supplemental electrode *required
* also no less than 6' apart , so I'm not sure where
the 16' apart reference standard you are using comes from.
7' or 8' apart is fine.(I use the length of a ground rod so
I don't use a tape measure)


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Math123 said:


> Ok ill try to make it long story shot, but PLEASE stick to code advice not personal opinions.
> 
> 
> I'm doing solar, we need to drive ground rods as an electrode, we're doing it in NY which is full of foundation cement concrete everywhere. Many times it's just not possible to get the ground rods all the way down, sometimes not even any further than say 4 - 6ft and obviously you can't pull it back out so they cut it. I can't do that, burying a plate is not an option, and I've never seen nor is it a feasible business expense to buy advanced driver ground rods.
> ...


In my *OPINION* you're doing your employer a favor. Quitting a job because you can't/won't figure out a way to drive a ground rod? 

I live in the NY, NJ, Pa, tristate area with some of the rockiest soil condions in the county and in my 40+ years doing electrical work have never not been able to get an inspection passed involving a grounding electrode.

You're not trying hard enough.

Perhaps a career in retail or the fast food industry is in your future. :whistling2:


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

flyboy said:


> In my *OPINION* you're doing your employer a favor. Quitting a job because you can't/won't figure out a way to drive a ground rod?
> 
> I live in the NY, NJ, Pa, tristate area with some of the rockiest soil condions in the county and in my 40+ years doing electrical work have never not been able to get an inspection passed involving a grounding electrode.
> 
> ...


I'm
going to go ahead and follow your signature's advice on this one. Specially considering he was the one who had to cut them twice so your ignorant comment is inapplicable.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

The _theory_ behind art *250* is the hardest part of it *Math*, even career sparks are often clueless

Google>>> *earthing systems* for starters

Maybe some of our _self made_ men can chime in and help you, when the finish bragging about themselves


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

There are valid reasons to quit a job, but having to cut ground rods is not one of them in my book.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

flyboy said:


> In my *OPINION* you're doing your employer a favor. Quitting a job because you can't/won't figure out a way to drive a ground rod?
> 
> I live in the NY, NJ, Pa, tristate area with some of the rockiest soil condions in the county and in my 40+ years doing electrical work have never not been able to get an inspection passed involving a grounding electrode.
> 
> ...


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Helmut said:


> Ground rods and electrodes are for lightning.
> 
> They do nothing to the performance of the electrical system.



That really depends on the area of performance.


If I didn't have a ground rod I wouldn't be able to bond my antennas, phone, and cable system, for example. If you mean electrical power then yeah, I get that.


I really love the Mike Holt videos on fault clearing and how ground rods do nothing for that...I totally get that.


but...


The IEEE 3000 (formerly Green and Emerald books) has a number of examples where grounding electrode systems are needed...but again...those examples don't really apply to everyday NEC-compliant residential systems.


my 2p


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

MTW said:


> There are valid reasons to quit a job, but having to cut ground rods is not one of them in my book.



Hey we're not perfect nor superman, sometimes you have to, but if I have to do it on a weekly or daily basis, that's too much for me.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

I’m Superman. 

Just sayin’.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

To the OP, you are asking several questions.

To comply with the NEC see Article 690,

690.47 Grounding Electrode System.
(A) Alternating-Current Systems. If installing an ac system,
a grounding electrode system shall be provided in
accordance with 250.50 through 250.60. The grounding
electrode conductor shall be installed in accordance with
250.64.

You can ground the PV system to the building's existing grounding electrode system if it complies.

If it doesn't comply you have to make it comply. Bonding jumpers around water meters is in the NEC. Get it done.

If NYC or the inspector has additional requirements, than you have to do what the AHJ is requesting. If you think it is wrong you can got to the Electrical Inspection Dept. with all your justification as to why you think what you have done complies. Good Luck. Got nothing to do with bureaucracy.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

tjb said:


> I’m Superman.
> 
> Just sayin’.


No you're not, I am.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

flyboy said:


> No you're not, I am.


we dont need superman where i work we have "bam bam" the mexican wrench

me..."bam bam i got this rod stuck can you came give me a hand."

jose...."betty will get it (thats a one handed 20lb lump hammer with a welded handle as he broke the fiberglass 2 handed handle, he names his hammers)"

bam bam bam 

me...."thanks bam bam"

jose..."you got little chicken arms"


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

OP

sounds to me like the real problem is you lack confidence in your leaders and what they are telling you. sadly until you learn the the trade fairly well you will probably have to deal with that, i did to.

driving difficulties
i once zip tied the trigger on a ground rod driver and left it driving for maybe an hour or more while i went and worked on something else. not sure what damage i cause to whatever was in ground but rod got put in. i can't attest to whats in NYC sounds to me like the short rods would be sufficient especially if your tying into whatever else you can and using 2 rods when needed. talk to your journeyman/master electrician about your concerns and see if they can explain some things to you.

I've also heard about someone using coupling ground rods to get i think 100' rod and it hit something and the beginning end of the rod came back up out of the ground somewhere else while they were driving the rod (it did a big u in the ground because it deflected off of something)


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

> Guys help me please I had to quit a job bc of code bureaucracy...


Actually, you didn't have to do anything. You quit your job. Simple as that.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

In almost any installation or service/repair situation, there will be challenges of how to balance code requirements, material specifications and practical limitations. It's a day to day challenge. Comes with the job.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

why cut them off?
I use an air driven demolition hammer 

quick, easy and as long as you don't hit rebar they can drive a rod through a concrete slab!
even in rocky soil you can drive a 10 foot rod in about a minute or less.
or you can use a hilti rod driver


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## Math123 (Jun 16, 2018)

gnuuser said:


> why cut them off?
> I use an air driven demolition hammer
> 
> quick, easy and as long as you don't hit rebar they can drive a rod through a concrete slab!
> ...





We tried using the hilti, it went nowhere. I'd be ok with driving more than one a few feet apart and explaining to the inspector but they hired me to be in an out I'd never see the inspector it was a fast money type of job. It's over now it doesn't matter. Next time I'll try the zip tie thing. Thanks guys.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Math123 said:


> We tried using the hilti, it went nowhere. I'd be ok with driving more than one a few feet apart and explaining to the inspector but they hired me to be in an out I'd never see the inspector it was a fast money type of job. It's over now it doesn't matter. Next time I'll try the zip tie thing. Thanks guys.



while a hilti does work most of the time impact wise they don't have the balls that a demolition hammer or light jack hammer would have.
this makes a lot of difference when driving a rod
figure the force of a 32 pound hammer striking around 200 to 300 blows a minutes and you can see what i mean! (this is the equivalent of the power of a demolition hammer)


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## Travvy (Sep 17, 2017)

Isn’t one permitted to lay ground rods in a 2’ deep trench if driving them vertically is not possible?


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

yes, and the plate option exists as well


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Travvy said:


> Isn’t one permitted to lay ground rods in a 2’ deep trench if driving them vertically is not possible?


You can't stick the tip of your shovel in the ground anywhere around me without hitting a rock, so I start almost every ground rod out at a 45 degree angle to begin with. On occasion, I've had them curve into a "C" shape and come back out of the ground several feet away, or hit something and come out through the basement wall inside the building. Rocky soil sucks, but I can't say that I've ever been so confounded by it that I wanted to quit anything. I've paused on driving a ground rod for a little bit, went and did something else at the place, and came back to it after a little bit. Not being able to get a ground rod in equates to a lack of motivation to do so, in my mind.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

If all else fails, get a bigger hammer. Or hit it with your purse. If you need to get a rod out, use a pipe wrench and unscrew it.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Wondering why the US has no gone to plates like we have up here? Can't remember when I drove a rod last... maybe 10 years ago?

I suppose there might be a specification to use a copper clad rod somewhere, but not in a residential setting.

If you got a copper water line from the street, no rod or plate needed.

Cheers
John


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

California has fallen in love with Ufer.

Which is quite equivalent to a ground plate... Earthing wise.


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