# Sharing a neutral



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> I have a situation where I'm going to install a generator inlet in an outbuilding. The outbuilding has a feeder to a remote panelboard (subpanel.) I'm going to pull the generator conductors into the same conduit as the feeder conductors. Is there anything from stopping me from using the existing feeder neutral for the generator neutral (thus eliminating the need to pull another neutral)?
> 
> Currently the system is a 3 wire (compliant when it was installed) but I intend to pull an EGC.


What is a generator "inlet"?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Can you put the inlet on the out building?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Can you put the inlet on the out building?


Wouldn't that be an outlet?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

why not put an outlet on the inbuilding ? j/k

I don't see why not.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> Can you put the inlet on the out building?


That's what I'm doing. :001_huh:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's what I'm doing. :001_huh:


What are you calling an inlet?The term eludes me as far as generators go.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hopefully don_resqcapt will answer my question. At least he contributes useful information to the forum.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Hopefully don_resqcapt will answer my question. At least he contributes useful information to the forum.


 He is okay but why do you feel you have to suck up to him?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

riveter said:


> what is a generator "inlet"?


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

Look at 300.3 (B) 2011


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

backstay said:


> View attachment 39449


Okay, a male duplex plug in receptacle form. I have just never heard the term inlet except for the fiords in Alaska when I was there.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> Hopefully don_resqcapt will answer my question. At least he contributes useful information to the forum.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

This thread is Cletis.:laughing:


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

I am on vacation and don't have a code book. Or I would gladly help you.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Ultrafault said:


> I am on vacation and don't have a code book. Have you considered that If the generator wires short to the subpanel wires you would defeat the double throw isolation?


You must have not gone far from home.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Ultrafault said:


> I am on vacation and don't have a code book. Have you considered that If the generator wires short to the subpanel wires you would defeat the double throw isolation?


Rewire, I haven't considered it because I'm not evenly remotely concerned by it. Are you talking about the ungrounded conductors?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Ultrafault said:


> I am on vacation and don't have a code book. Or I would gladly help you.





> Originally Posted by *Ultrafault*
> _I am on vacation and don't have a code book. Have you considered that If the generator wires short to the subpanel wires you would defeat the double throw isolation?_






MTW said:


> Rewire, I haven't considered it because I'm not evenly remotely concerned by it. Are you talking about the ungrounded conductors?


These here quotes don't match!
Who are you quoting, and what are you smoking?:laughing:

And who are you calling "Rewire"?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Yeah what are you guys smoking.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> Hopefully don_resqcapt will answer my question. At least he contributes useful information to the forum.


Coming from you, that is just downright precious. :laughing:

Reap what you sow, and all that.


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

Something wrong here in this thread and its only a Wednesday!


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

The OP is trolling.....:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Coming from you, that is just downright precious. :laughing:
> 
> Reap what you sow, and all that.


:thumbup::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> The OP is trolling.....:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> The OP is drunk trolling.....:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:


fify


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MTW said:


> I have a situation where I'm going to install a generator inlet in an outbuilding. The outbuilding has a feeder to a remote panelboard (subpanel.) I'm going to pull the generator conductors into the same conduit as the feeder conductors. Is there anything from stopping me from using the existing feeder neutral for the generator neutral (thus eliminating the need to pull another neutral)?
> 
> Currently the system is a 3 wire (compliant when it was installed) but I intend to pull an EGC.


With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.

However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Barjack said:


> With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


this is some of the info he left out and the reason the thread is cletis


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

*Gennie as a load*



Barjack said:


> With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


In part, a disconnect should be in place.

When the gennie is an SDS, there is no neutral. When the gennie is not an SDS, there is no ground rod.

http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/ma03/ma5.htm


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> In part, a disconnect should be in place.
> 
> When the gennie is an SDS, there is no neutral. When the gennie is not an SDS, there is no ground rod.
> 
> http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/ma03/ma5.htm



I was thinking that, if there was a disconnect that also disconnected the neutral it would be ok.



Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


Good point. :thumbsup: I'll be running a separate neutral.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

cuba_pete said:


> In part, a disconnect should be in place.
> 
> When the gennie is an SDS, there is no neutral. When the gennie is not an SDS, there is no ground rod.
> 
> http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/ma03/ma5.htm


I'm not sure this is 100% accurate nor a correct interpretation of the link you provided. A SDS has a switched neutral, and a non-SDS has a solid neutral with no neutral to ground bond at the generator. And the latter can certainly have a ground rod, just no neutral-ground bond at the gen.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I think so far this thread has been a projective test to demonstrate whose and electrician and who isn't. :whistling2:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I have a situation where I'm going to install a generator inlet in an outbuilding. The outbuilding has a feeder to a remote panelboard (subpanel.) I'm going to pull the generator conductors into the same conduit as the feeder conductors. Is there anything from stopping me from using the existing feeder neutral for the generator neutral (thus eliminating the need to pull another neutral)?
> 
> Currently the system is a 3 wire (compliant when it was installed) but I intend to pull an EGC.




Im having trouble picturing the setup, however if I imagine it correctly Id say no.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Pharon said:


> I'm not sure this is 100% accurate nor a correct interpretation of the link you provided. A SDS has a switched neutral, and a non-SDS has a solid neutral with no neutral to ground bond at the generator. And the latter can certainly have a ground rod, just no neutral-ground bond at the gen.


Yes, it's one interpretation, but the gist is there for any interpretation. My point being that a gennie which is still wired ("inlet" plugged in) while normal power is available should be configured as either _correctly_ separately derived or not to ensure that the grounded/grounding situation is not hazardous.

The OP mentioned a N-G bond at the gennie...a non-SDS as you pointed out should not exist, thus no "load" would be present.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Shock-Therapy said:


> fify


Do not make fun of MTW.  He's one of the smartest members on this forum.:thumbup:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Barjack said:


> With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


The bond to the frame is not permitted if you are using a two pole transfer switch.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Chris1971 said:


> Do not make fun of MTW.  He's one of the smartest members on this forum.:thumbup:


x2 Guy has brains. And avoids GE. 2 best possible gifts in an electrician:thumbup::thumbup:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

I call dildos


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

cuba_pete said:


> Yes, it's one interpretation, but the gist is there for any interpretation. My point being that a gennie which is still wired ("inlet" plugged in) while normal power is available should be configured as either _correctly_ separately derived or not to ensure that the grounded/grounding situation is not hazardous.
> 
> The OP mentioned a N-G bond at the gennie...a non-SDS as you pointed out should not exist, thus no "load" would be present.


Here is the interpretation from UL that counts. A portable that is used to power premise wiring is to be installed as a SDS.

*



ENGINE GENERATORS FOR PORTABLE
USE (FTCN)
GENERAL
This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated
15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets
for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating or
direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery charging
circuits.
When a portable generator is used to supply a building wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance
with ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code’’ (NEC).
2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently
installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other
than the equipment grounding conductor.
3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment grounding
conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the
generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure, the
portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure
grounding electrode for its ground reference.
4. Portable generators used other than to power building structures are
intended to be connected to ground in accordance with the NEC

Click to expand...

*.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

ceb58 said:


> Here is the interpretation from UL that counts. A portable that is used to power premise wiring is to be installed as a SDS.
> 
> .


Note that that statement from UL only applies to listed portable generators....a lot of them are not listed, and the NEC does not specify the use of a listed generator.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW should be a moderator.:thumbup:


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

ceb58 said:


> Here is the interpretation from UL that counts. A portable that is used to power premise wiring is to be installed as a SDS.


If using an interlock kit instead of a transfer switch, there is no other option than making it non-SDS.


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## ivan (Nov 16, 2011)

So I was planning to install a double pole double throw switch to alternately feed a sub panel from utility or portable generator. Homeowner has portable 5.5 kw unit but plans to install larger standby model in the future. I should install a triple pole double throw switch?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

backstay said:


> View attachment 39449


That looks like a plug.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> I think so far this thread has been a projective test to demonstrate whose and electrician and who isn't. :whistling2:


Does it also show who can spell, or not?


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## ivan (Nov 16, 2011)

*related question*



Barjack said:


> With nothing plugged into the inlet I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> However, lets say the generator is plugged in, but not in use. The generator neutral is bonded to the frame, creating a connection with the equipment ground. Wouldn't that create a load side grounding connection at the outbuilding?


I was planning to install a double pole double throw switch to alternately feed a sub panel from utility or portable generator. Homeowner has portable 5.5 kw unit but plans to install larger standby model in the future. I should install a triple pole double throw switch?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Chris1971 said:


> MTW should be a moderator.:thumbup:


No thanks. :no:


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

ivan said:


> So I was planning to install a double pole double throw switch to alternately feed a sub panel from utility or portable generator. Homeowner has portable 5.5 kw unit but plans to install larger standby model in the future. *I should install a triple pole double throw switch?*


Is that a statement showing lack of confidence or a question? :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ivan said:


> I was planning to install a double pole double throw switch to alternately feed a sub panel from utility or portable generator. Homeowner has portable 5.5 kw unit but plans to install larger standby model in the future. I should install a triple pole double throw switch?


Double pole, double throw...center off.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

ivan said:


> I was planning to install a double pole double throw switch to alternately feed a sub panel from utility or portable generator. Homeowner has portable 5.5 kw unit but plans to install larger standby model in the future. I should install a triple pole double throw switch?


My response was to the OP that was considering using an existing feeder neutral as the generator neutral.


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## amigi968 (May 24, 2008)

Amazes me how many didnt know what an inlet is....


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

I wouldn't install anything like that.


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## ivan (Nov 16, 2011)

Shock-Therapy said:


> Is that a statement showing lack of confidence or a question? :laughing:


Note the question mark.


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