# Romex in Air Handler Closet



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not sure all that is necessary...is the romex actually running inside the air handler itself?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

No, but it is in the closet with the air handler and the water heater. 

I know they like to limit the amount of PVC in the closet to just the condensate line but it pains me to think that I have to go back and redo that work.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> No, but it is in the closet with the air handler and the water heater.



Is the closet used for environmental air? :blink:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It sounds like you ran romex out thru the roof sleeved in carflex. That is a NO NO as nm is not wet location rated.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It sounds like you ran romex out thru the roof sleeved in carflex. That is a NO NO as nm is not wet location rated.


yep but as far as the closet is concerned, I think you are okay.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It sounds like you ran romex out thru the roof sleeved in carflex. That is a NO NO as nm is not wet location rated.


I actually pealed off the jacket and put a change over fitting where it entered the carflex. I knew to do that but the air handler closet thing is what gets me.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I actually pealed off the jacket and put a change over fitting where it entered the carflex. I knew to do that but the air handler closet thing is what gets me.


 The wire in romex is not rated for wet location. That would fail around here although I really don't see it as a big issue.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Is the closet used for environmental air? :blink:


Where do you draw the line, at the louvered door? Can an electric water heater occupy the same space?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The wire in romex is not rated for wet location. That would fail around here although I really don't see it as a big issue.


yep again! It ain't thhn/thwn!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Is the closet used for environmental air? :blink:


I know here we have lots of condos with their AHU in a closet and they cut a vent in the closet door and pull return air. Just a possibility.



jrannis said:


> I actually pealed off the jacket and put a change over fitting where it entered the carflex. I knew to do that but the air handler closet thing is what gets me.


Either way, jacket or no jacket, it's a technical no, no.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> yep again! It ain't thhn/thwn!


Well it may be but it isn't marked. :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well it may be but it isn't marked. :thumbsup:


Its manufactured with THHN/ THWN:

http://www.unitedcopper.com/images/stories/common/downloads/nm-b/nm-b_spec_sheet.pdf

*Specifications*

Type NM-B cable meets or exceeds UL Standard 83, UL Standard 719, Federal Specification A-A-59544 and requirements of the National Electrical Code® (NFPA 70).
*Construction*

Type NM-B cable is manufactured as 2- or 3- conductor (*Type THHN/THWN-2*) cable, with a ground wire. Copper conductors are soft-annealed. Stranded conductors are compressed stranded. Phase conductors are insulated with tough, heat- and moisture-resistant, lead-free Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) over which a nylon (polyamide) or UL-recognized equivalent jacket is applied. They are jacketed with moisture- and fungus-resistant lead-free PVC. Jackets are color-coded for ease of conductor size identification: 14 AWG - White; 12 AWG - Yellow; 10 AWG - Orange; 8 & 6 AWG - Black.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Its manufactured with THHN/ THWN:
> 
> *Specifications*
> 
> ...



I understand all that but unless it is marked it is no go. They could use thhn or thwn or both. There is no guarantee that it has a "W" rating. 334.112 states the insulation shall be rated 90C. It does not state otherwise.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

..plus on the instructions itself it says it is to be used in "normally dry" locations


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I understand all that but unless it is marked it is no go. They could use thhn or thwn or both. There is no guarantee that it has a "W" rating. 334.112 states the insulation shall be rated 90C. It does not state otherwise.


I havent seen any THHN/ THWN that wasnt duel rated within the last 25 years or so.

Type NM-B may be used for both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations at
temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in
the National Electrical Code®.

http://www.unitedcopper.com/images/stories/common/downloads/nm-b/nm-b_spec_sheet.pdf


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> ..plus on the instructions itself it says it is to be used in "normally dry" locations


That's why he removed the insulation. Again, I would bet that most nm is thwn/thhn but if it is not marked then it is subject to a red tag. I wish they would mark it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I havent seen any THHN/ THWN that wasnt duel rated within the last 25 years or so.
> 
> Type NM-B may be used for both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations at
> temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in
> the National Electrical Code®.


And what does 300.9 state.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

By the time I played around with all of this Romex crap, I could have just piped the whole job. 

Just got off the phone. The Inspector said that their was so little Romex in the closet and considering that the waterheater was in there and the louvered door closed pretty tight to the intake that he would accept it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> And what does 300.9 state.


My 2005 doesnt have that, goes from 300.8 to 300.10.

Section 300.9 also addresses raceways. It states that where raceways are installed in wet locations above ground, the interior of the raceway shall also be considered a wet location, again requiring conductors listed for wet locations.

Remove jacket, have only THHN/ THWN-2. All is good!!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jrannis said:


> By the time I played around with all of this Romex crap, I could have just piped the whole job.
> 
> Just got off the phone. The Inspector said that their was so little Romex in the closet and considering that the waterheater was in there and the louvered door closed pretty tight to the intake that he would accept it.


And I seriously would not loose sleep over it either. We ran nm in carflex for 20 years outside to the a/c units. I guess the water heater would have to be piped in metal piping and nm sleeved in metal flex. Probably will never be an issue but some inspectors go by code alone.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> ..plus on the instructions itself it says it is to be used in "normally dry" locations


Inside of a sealed conduit on the side of a house is always a dry location.. but still is against code..


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> And I seriously would not loose sleep over it either. We ran nm in carflex for 20 years outside to the a/c units. I guess the water heater would have to be piped in metal piping and nm sleeved in metal flex. Probably will never be an issue but some inspectors go by code alone.


The existing (very small) water heater is in Greenfield, no ground wire, 20 amp breaker with #12s Building circa 1977 or so.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

B4T said:


> Inside of a sealed conduit on the side of a house is always a dry location.. but still is against code..


don't start THAT again!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That's why he removed the insulation. Again, I would bet that most nm is thwn/thhn but if it is not marked then it is subject to a red tag. I wish they would mark it.


I'll wait on the NEC to clarify it is thhn/thwn, until then, I wouldn't do it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> don't start THAT again!


I'm only stating the obvious.. deal with it.. :thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

B4T said:


> I'm only stating the obvious.. deal with it.. :thumbsup:


yeah somehow this whole deal just got overlooked, ignored and denied by the CMP....tsk tsk tsk.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

B4T said:


> I'm only stating the obvious.. deal with it.. :thumbsup:


Do you seriously think there is never moisture in a conduit outside on the side of a building? Esp.run horizontally.. I suspect there must be some condensation.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Do you seriously think there is never moisture in a conduit outside on the side of a building? Esp.run horizontally.. I suspect there must be some condensation.


don't feed the troll! :jester::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I havent seen any THHN/ THWN that wasnt duel rated within the last 25 years or so.
> 
> Type NM-B may be used for both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations at
> temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in
> ...


I ran several miles of straight thhn. Inside within the last 10-12 years.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I havent seen any THHN/ THWN that wasnt duel rated within the last 25 years or so.
> 
> Type NM-B may be used for both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations at
> temperatures not to exceed 90°C (with ampacity limited to that for 60°C conductors) as specified in
> ...


I learned that from a Code class, that the wire used inside NM is THHN.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I ran several miles of straight thhn. Inside within the last 10-12 years.


Me too......... but is always said THHN/THWN-2. When it first came out, it was not labeled with a W. Now all I see is dual rated.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Do you seriously think there is never moisture in a conduit outside on the side of a building? Esp.run horizontally.. I suspect there must be some condensation.


Our fittings leak, we are not plumbers..


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Me too......... but is always said THHN/THWN-2. When it first came out, it was not labeled with a W. Now all I see is dual rated.


I think McClary was saying that the thhn was not dual rated. 

Edit to add: Maybe I read that wrong. He may have been saying he hasn't seen it in the last 10-12 years.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think McClary was saying that the thhn was not dual rated.
> 
> Edit to add: Maybe I read that wrong. He may have been saying he hasn't seen it in the last 10-12 years.


Your first guess was right. He mentioned it's been dual rated for 25 years. So I felt the need to tell him we ran miles and miles of it around 10 years ago.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

The romex is a no go, it would fail anywhere I have worked. And as for the closet being a return air duct, it would need to be MC or conduit, no romex exposed.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I run a good bit of bare copper wire, you know, uffer's and so forth. There is no markings on that either. Do I need to go dig it all up now? Maybe since it has no markings , I cannot prove it is copper and all........:whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I run a good bit of bare copper wire, you know, uffer's and so forth. There is no markings on that either. Do I need to go dig it all up now? Maybe since it has no markings , I cannot prove it is copper and all........:whistling2:


Another example is I've never seen metal boxes with a fire rating like plastic ones. Are they fire rated?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Another example is I've never seen metal boxes with a fire rating like plastic ones. Are they fire rated?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> Inside of a sealed conduit on the side of a house is always a dry location.. but still is against code..


 

You must be nuts. I guess your windshield never fogs up on the inside either. :blink:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It seems as though the electrical inspector is OK with the Romex but now the 90 year old Mechanical Inspector doesn't like it but will not provide me with a code reference.
The Chief Building Official doesn't want to get involved.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Inside of a sealed conduit on the side of a house is always a dry location.. but still is against code..


But it is not.

Not to the NEC and not in real life either.


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