# sharing neutrals



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't share well...:jester:

There is nothing wrong with it if done correctly but due to 210.4(B) it may result in a less than desirable installation especially if you have a ground fault or if you need to trouble-shoot.

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

In a residence I think it is a bad idea. In commercial I am okay with it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I refuse to share my neutrals. I want to keep them all to myself... so go get your own. :jester:

I have no issues with MWBCs at all. If the next person comes along and screws something up, it's not my fault he's not qualified.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

We just finished a job that included running a new 100A sub panel from a 600A main for outdoor GFI's at a shipping facility. We put up 12 poles with a receptacle on each, 2 receptacles per circuit for a total of 6 circuits and shared 3 neutrals. The receptacles are for the trucks to plug in the engine heaters overnight.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

We all share neutrals regardless of how we feel about it.


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

Unless specs say otherwise, I almost always run shared neutrals (commercial).

My Momma taught me when I was little that I should always share, so I've taken that to heart in my electrical business.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

MarkyMark said:


> Unless specs say otherwise, I almost always run shared neutrals (commercial).
> 
> My Momma taught me when I was little that I should always share, so I've taken that to heart in my electrical business.


Momma said these my magic shoes :laughing::thumbsup:


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

NAVFAC quit allowing shared neutrals effective 1-1-2011. I've had a headache ever since


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## CESnc (Dec 12, 2011)

im sure code prohibits sharing neutrals unless all phases on neutral can be disconnected simultaneoulsy


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't really care either way myself.


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## E.D.R. (Jan 8, 2012)

What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

LightsOn81 said:


> NAVFAC quit allowing shared neutrals effective 1-1-2011. I've had a headache ever since


That's news to me.
Which NavFac told you this?
MidWest, SouthEast???
.
Of course if they did tell outside contractors not to share they sure as heck won't tell us.. 
We are mushrooms, kept in the dark & fed bullsh/t.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

E.D.R. said:


> What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.


Nope, can't do that, see 200.6 and 250.119 Besides those articles you now have no EGC


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

E.D.R. said:


> What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.



Double hell no. How does the foreman propose to ground the lights?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

E.D.R. said:


> What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.


That's not sharing a neutral that is just not legal. Well I guess it's kinda sharing a neutral.
It is definitely a ten on the hack scale though.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Double hell no. How does the foreman propose to ground the lights?


Triple hell no.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I usually don't have a problem with it, but I chicken out when it comes to expensive equipment. I haven't had an open neutral yet on a master PLC and I don't think I wanna.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I usually don't have a problem with it, but I chicken out when it comes to expensive equipment. I haven't had an open neutral yet on a master PLC and I don't think I wanna.


If the power supply is modern it may just adjust to it fine.

Or it could smoke.:laughing:


I once made a lot of smoke rise from a display of Apple computers at an old Comp USA.  I opened a 4" square and a badly done neutral splice popped off. 

I got lucky, the computers were OK, the smoke came from surge suppression plug strips. One of the workers there came over to me and asked if the 'clutch was bad' in the lift I was driving. :blink::laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> ...One of the workers there came over to me and asked if the 'clutch was bad' in the lift I was driving. :blink::laughing:


 LMAO. "Yeah, and I think I'm low on washer fluid, too."

-John


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## Hairbone (Feb 16, 2011)

E.D.R. said:


> What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.


208 volt wall pack?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Triple hell no.


I'm still wondering how the hell he became a Foreman if this is his MO...:blink::blink:

Pete


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## E.D.R. (Jan 8, 2012)

Hairbone said:


> 208 volt wall pack?


 No its going straight to the panel hits the lights then back to the panel


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## E.D.R. (Jan 8, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> I'm still wondering how the hell he became a Foreman if this is his MO...:blink::blink:
> 
> Pete


Companys giving him his first job to run " straight to the ground"


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## Hairbone (Feb 16, 2011)

E.D.R. said:


> Companys giving him his first job to run " straight to the ground"


It sounds you should find a better company to work for.

Here is a story for you:

One time we had this helper guy pulling wire. I swear he lived in his van down by the river…literally. He was a hard worker and when work slowed he was laid off. A few weeks later he turned up at another company and in two weeks they had him running a job. Word on the street was that they needed to get the site lights working and he couldn’t figure out how to control three 208V circuits on a single pole mechanical time clock. The GC site super said to use a contactor…..The so called electrician said “what is a contactor?” I saw the guy working the scale at the local scrap yard a few weeks later and i heard the GC never used that EC again


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## Starcraft (Jan 14, 2012)

Hairbone said:


> It sounds you should find a better company to work for.
> 
> Here is a story for you:
> 
> One time we had this helper guy pulling wire. I swear he lived in his van down by the river…literally. He was a hard worker and when work slowed he was laid off. A few weeks later he turned up at another company and in two weeks they had him running a job. Word on the street was that they needed to get the site lights working and he couldn’t figure out how to control three 208V circuits on a single pole mechanical time clock. The GC site super said to use a contactor…..The so called electrician said “what is a contactor?” I saw the guy working the scale at the local scrap yard a few weeks later and i heard the GC never used that EC again


im not a big fan of guys who say they can do things that they really cant, or foreman/contractors who try to make people do things who say they dont know how..as an apprentice i had foreman yelling at me to work on a panel that had like 50 contactors in it i even told the guy i wasnt sure what i was even suppose to be doing and he just walked away, came back awhile later yelling at me, is it his fault for not showing me or is it my fault for not knowing enough...


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

Starcraft said:


> im not a big fan of guys who say they can do things that they really cant, or foreman/contractors who try to make people do things who say they dont know how..as an apprentice i had foreman yelling at me to work on a panel that had like 50 contactors in it i even told the guy i wasnt sure what i was even suppose to be doing and he just walked away, came back awhile later yelling at me, is it his fault for not showing me or is it my fault for not knowing enough...


HIS ,if your the apprentice he should be teaching you.


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## King of Retail (Jan 21, 2009)

E.D.R. said:


> What about using a single piece of mc split to two circuits " black being a hot white being a hot and green as the neutral" mind you we are still sharing the neutrals. Oh by the way this is the formens doing i guess the underground route was a no go so we went through the nearest wall with whats explaind. There for outside lights.


This is insane...
There's nothing wrong with sharing Neutrals at all, I agree with doing it more comfortably in commercial settings. I don't normally do it in residential but if I have to I have absolutely no issue doing so. The 2 Circuits in one piece of MC cable w the ground as a neutral however I have a HUGE problem with. That is 100% unsafe and being a lazy lazy jerk.


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## Starcraft (Jan 14, 2012)

Sparky208 said:


> HIS ,if your the apprentice he should be teaching you.


Ive had guys telling me "thats not how the world works" after asking them to explain how to do something


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

Starcraft said:


> Ive had guys telling me "thats not how the world works" after asking them to explain how to do something


I always tell apprentices working for me to ask, I would rather they ask then screw something up. Especially if it cost money to fix, or it's something that can't be fixed easily. And thats how they learn. Same with a electrician working for me, nobody knows everything. So if your not sure ask


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## Gaterhater (Nov 15, 2011)

Starcraft said:


> Ive had guys telling me "thats not how the world works" after asking them to explain how to do something


That would make someone jobless in my company!


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## Gaterhater (Nov 15, 2011)

With all the simultaneous trip breaker changes that came into affect in 08, it's understandable on 277v lighting circuits. There were some dangerous situations created. But on 120v power circuits, it's been a complete pain in my ass! Especially on any renovation or re-model job.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Starcraft said:


> Ive had guys telling me "thats not how the world works" after asking them to explain how to do something


thats when you _show_ them how _this _works...


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

If I have to pull more than one circuit to an area then I'll share neutrals all day. Fridge + microwave. Furnace + water heater. Garage + central vac. Lighting + receptacles. Multiple lighting circuits. Whatever. I'm with 480 on this one...if some hack comes along later and messes up my properly made connections...that's his fault for being a hack, not my fault for using an efficient and convenient wiring method.


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## Starcraft (Jan 14, 2012)

Gaterhater said:


> That would make someone jobless in my company!


 
he sits around all day reading the blueprint and i do all the work, and then yells at me that i dont know as much as he does about the job...im be struggling by myself trying to figure out some complicated conduit bend that he could help me do in 5 minutes but instead the guys sitting in the trailer eatting his lunch without me

meanwhile im the one that gets laid off...after showing up to work a half hour early everyday for a year, tells the company owner who knows what, im 30 years old, but im still an apprentice so the owner doesnt even talk to me about it just takes his word for it...


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*I smell*

I smell something .......short , squinchy face, under bridge. Believe me, I would know


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

I love it, and in Canada we don't have to handle tie the breakers for a MWBC. I fear the day the CEC follows the NECs lead and requires that..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

E.D.R. said:


> How do you guys feel about that?


I am fine with them, some seem to be afraid of them. *Beware; the Multiwire Branch Circuit*


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't like them, would support a code change to ban them.


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## Starcraft (Jan 14, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> If I have to pull more than one circuit to an area then I'll share neutrals all day. Fridge + microwave. Furnace + water heater. Garage + central vac. Lighting + receptacles. Multiple lighting circuits. Whatever. I'm with 480 on this one...if some hack comes along later and messes up my properly made connections...that's his fault for being a hack, not my fault for using an efficient and convenient wiring method.


 
one of the first things in the NEC is that being efficient and convenient isnt always what the code is asking for..


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## Peerless Design (Dec 3, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> That's news to me.
> Which NavFac told you this?
> MidWest, SouthEast???
> .
> ...


I just designed one project for them. We had to use dedicated neutrals, but I thought it was because each circuit was a dedicated circuit serving sensitive electronic equipment.

I'm working on a couple other projects for them, but no one has requested dedicated neutrals on these projects, and I haven't seen the requirements written anywhere.


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

Sparky208 said:


> I always tell apprentices working for me to ask, I would rather they ask then screw something up. Especially if it cost money to fix, or it's something that can't be fixed easily. And thats how they learn. Same with a electrician working for me, nobody knows everything. So if your not sure ask


Me too, I don't get guys who think they don't have to teach apprentices. Will you be mad when they waste man hours and material doing it wrong? And apprentices are allowed to make mistakes, just not keep repeating the same ones, or make mistakes from failure to listen or speak up when they don't understand what they are told.


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## Starcraft (Jan 14, 2012)

Peerless Design said:


> I just designed one project for them. We had to use dedicated neutrals, but I thought it was because each circuit was a dedicated circuit serving sensitive electronic equipment.
> 
> I'm working on a couple other projects for them, but no one has requested dedicated neutrals on these projects, and I haven't seen the requirements written anywhere.


 
isolated grounds?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

For AV racks and equipment, I do not share neutrals. Some lighting systems (AMX/Radia, Vantage) also prohibit use of shared neutrals on line and load sides. 

For general lighting, general purpose receptacles I have no problem with it and have done it.


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