# Troubleshooting Specific Books?



## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

What are some good books dedicated to troubleshooting of motor control circuits?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

The NJATC has some excellent publications on the subject. Problem being, you can't buy them from Amazon, you have to be in an apprenticeship program.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Good troubleshooting comes from an excellent understanding of the systems and a mind that takes cause & effect and overlays it into the problem. Problem solvers "think" a certain way. You can't teach it, you can only learn the systems. So start with basic electricity and electronics. Learn them, understand them. How relays work, transformers, switches, and the electronic equivalents.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Look into Understanding Motor Controls by Stephen Herman, that should be a good start.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I'm just looking for reading material to maybe pick up on some things I may have not learned yet. I believe I looked through one of his books. 
I'm knowledgeable of how the systems operate and interact but I believe sometimes going over things you already know you may pick up on something you've missed. My experience anyhow. I do agree with the experience aspect! I'm definitely a hands on learner! But I figure time I spend online or watching TV I could put to use reading about stuff I'm passionate about.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Mcswain said:


> I'm just looking for reading material to maybe pick up on some things I may have not learned yet. I believe I looked through one of his books.
> I'm knowledgeable of how the systems operate and interact but I believe sometimes going over things you already know you may pick up on something you've missed. My experience anyhow. I do agree with the experience aspect! I'm definitely a hands on learner! But I figure time I spend online or watching TV I could put to use reading about stuff I'm passionate about.


Try an online class on motor controls, there are some free ones out there.

There is a list of online classes posted here, take a look through the search results.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Hands down the best I've ever seen:
http://www.coxco.net/AC_Motor_Control_Book_p/b0020.ham

His conduit bending book is also much better than most.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I've had 400 hours of motors, control circuits, etc. getting ready to go into 400 hours of residential which I'm pretty familiar and comfortable with then 400 hrs of PLC. Any good books on PLC so I can get a headstart also. 
We done a lot of circuits and I'm comfortable with the troubleshooting and understand how it all works just wanting to add to my library and wondered if there were books specific to troubleshooting areas and procedures.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Mcswain said:


> I've had 400 hours of motors, control circuits, etc. getting ready to go into 400 hours of residential which I'm pretty familiar and comfortable with then 400 hrs of PLC. Any good books on PLC so I can get a headstart also.
> We done a lot of circuits and I'm comfortable with the troubleshooting and understand how it all works just wanting to add to my library and wondered if there were books specific to troubleshooting areas and procedures.


I've never read a troubleshooting book, and the first 15 years in the trade was spent as a troubleshooter. All my books are the standard run of the mill that I've picked up from school and along the path.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

bill39 said:


> Hands down the best I've ever seen:
> http://www.coxco.net/AC_Motor_Control_Book_p/b0020.ham
> 
> His conduit bending book is also much better than most.


Link not working ... need an 'htm' at the end :thumbsup:

http://www.coxco.net/AC_Motor_Control_Book_p/b0020.htm


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

emtnut said:


> bill39 said:
> 
> 
> > Hands down the best I've ever seen:
> ...


 That explains it lol make me troubleshoot the link lol


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Mcswain said:


> That explains it lol make me troubleshoot the link lol


Maybe he was testing you ! sorry I gave it away :laughing:


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Mcswain said:
> 
> 
> > That explains it lol make me troubleshoot the link lol
> ...


I just googled it! Doesn't that count? Lol


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

backstay said:


> Good troubleshooting comes from an excellent understanding of the systems and a mind that takes cause & effect and overlays it into the problem. Problem solvers "think" a certain way. You can't teach it, you can only learn the systems. So start with basic electricity and electronics. Learn them, understand them. How relays work, transformers, switches, and the electronic equivalents.



Dittos ! :thumbsup:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Mcswain said:


> I just googled it! Doesn't that count? Lol


You get 1/2 a point, grasshopper :chinese:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Going to Amazon may have gotten you the wrong book.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> I've never read a troubleshooting book, and the first 15 years in the trade was spent as a troubleshooter. All my books are the standard run of the mill that I've picked up from school and along the path.


If you know what something is supposed to do and see what it isn't doing and what it does do you should be able to figure out the problem.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I agree. Was just wanting some reading material that was specific to what I wanted rather than another book that's just repetitive of what I have already.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

Feel free to PM me with questions on the subject as well. Really there are a few key subjects to cover.

Safety comes first. Know what kind of circuit you are dealing with.
Learn how to use a megger (start at the motor side of a local disconnect and meg the wiring on through the motor)
Learn a basic 3-wire start/stop circuit. Memorize it. You will see it or variations constantly.

https://i2.wp.com/sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/04176.png?resize=362,228&ssl=1

Learn to segment between the power circuit for the motor and the control circuit. Very important.

The basic steps are the following:

Segment between power and control circuit.

If power:

Check motor/wiring to motor

If control:
Segment different sections by taking voltage readings and following the print and seeing where voltage drops off. Don't forget that the overload breaks the neutral most of the time, so if you have voltage you need to verify that you have a good neutral.

It is that simple.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> The NJATC has some excellent publications on the subject. Problem being, you can't buy them from Amazon, you have to be in an apprenticeship program.


I've gotten some off of eBay.... nothing is sacred in the world of commerce.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Most of the troubleshooting I did in the good old days was under pressure. It was machine downtime measured in thousands or tens of thousands of dollars per hour. It was important to narrow the problem down. Methodical circuit test may work when time isn't important, but I found that knowing what didn't have any bearing on your problem and getting that out of your head helped. You reach into the box(your mind) and remove the things it can't be until all that's left is what can be wrong. Wire up some circuits and introduce problems into them. Open neutrals are loads of fun. But doing that and seeing how they look with voltage measurements is very beneficial. Also manual and print reading, I can read( not really read) through a manual in a few seconds(under a minute) and find the information I need. Hours and hours of reading those things, gives you insight into how they are layed out and what is fluff and what is meat.

The thing you need to realize, few can truly troubleshoot. Many are parts changers that introduce more problems into the situation. Maybe two out of hundred can, maybe.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

I agree! I am wanting to get into a plant as an industrial electrician and most of it is troubleshooting. And yes time is money! I'm pretty good at figuring out what something shoukd do and what it's not doing. I'm trying to get really knowledgeable about what the voltage readings will show you under certain situations and what those readings can quickly show you or point you into the next part of the circuit that you should check next. The main thing is I absolutely love it and I can't get enough knowledge. When people are setting in class chatting when we're aniutndkne for the day I'm grabbing books trying to pick up any tidbits or get a headstart for next class. I'm determined to be great and an asset to someone!


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

sparkiez said:


> Feel free to PM me with questions on the subject as well. Really there are a few key subjects to cover.
> 
> Safety comes first. Know what kind of circuit you are dealing with.
> Learn how to use a megger (start at the motor side of a local disconnect and meg the wiring on through the motor)
> ...


Great advice!! Also be sure you know where you are taking voltage readings and what you should expect.. I've seen a fair amount of people measure voltage across a switch (pressure, temperature, etc) and measure no voltage, assume the switch is closed and can't see why the circuit isn't working, when there was no voltage at the switch due to something ahead of it tripped...

Understanding the control is huge and will come with time. Some switches are wired normally closed in a process and some are wired normally open, all dependent on the control philosophy and what they are doing in the process. 

Don't forget the "non electrical causes too". PLC's will have a hiccup from time to time, and components (relays, contacts, contactors, etc) will fail.. But people have been known to leave a valve closed after a service and now that pressure switch "doesn't work"...


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

glen1971 said:


> Great advice!! Also be sure you know where you are taking voltage readings and what you should expect.. I've seen a fair amount of people measure voltage across a switch (pressure, temperature, etc) and measure no voltage, assume the switch is closed and can't see why the circuit isn't working, when there was no voltage at the switch due to something ahead of it tripped...
> 
> Understanding the control is huge and will come with time. Some switches are wired normally closed in a process and some are wired normally open, all dependent on the control philosophy and what they are doing in the process.
> 
> Don't forget the "non electrical causes too". PLC's will have a hiccup from time to time, and components (relays, contacts, contactors, etc) will fail.. But people have been known to leave a valve closed after a service and now that pressure switch "doesn't work"...


This is all great advice too. Especially with the voltage thing. That is why I like to refer to it as "potential." It more clearly states what voltage actually IS.

As far as components, right on the money. Contacts get carbon buildup and start sparking, mechanical parts wear, etc. There is also the mechanical side. "Why are these overloads tripping?" All too often people neglect to see if a belt is slipping, or a sprocket/gear/bearing is worn and getting damage somewhere.

I don't think anyone touched on amp readings either. There is just so much to know when troubleshooting any control circuit. You first have to know how it works to segment the system and isolate the faulty component.


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## Mcswain (Dec 25, 2016)

All great thoughts and info!! I appreciate everyone's thoughts and time!


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

A good industrial electrician is about half electrician and half millwright. Not only do you need to know electrical troubleshooting but mechanical as well. 

I find that a pretty fair amount of problems I run across are mechanical, the electrical system does exactly what it is supposed to.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Most industrial machine problems can be cured with the proper dose of astragalus and curcumin.


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## MCasey (Dec 7, 2016)

micromind said:


> A good industrial electrician is about half electrician and half millwright. Not only do you need to know electrical troubleshooting but mechanical as well.
> 
> I find that a pretty fair amount of problems I run across are mechanical, the electrical system does exactly what it is supposed to.


The best people do not pigeon hole themselves


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Try this one*

Try this one it is one of the old Mc Graw-hill ones redone.


http://www.cmhsoftware.com/mh-emcs.html


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Most industrial machine problems can be cured with the proper dose of astragalus and curcumin.


And sometimes a large hammer.......


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> A good industrial electrician is about half electrician and half millwright. Not only do you need to know electrical troubleshooting but mechanical as well.
> 
> I find that a pretty fair amount of problems I run across are mechanical, the electrical system does exactly what it is supposed to.


I agree with this, but I was in the fortunate position of saying "The gearbox is locked up," or "your valve spool is sticking." Then I would just let the mechanics do their thing. If the problem is tricky it is automatically assumed to be electrical.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

sparkiez said:


> I agree with this, but I was in the fortunate position of saying "The gearbox is locked up," or "your valve spool is sticking." Then I would just let the mechanics do their thing. If the problem is tricky it is automatically assumed to be electrical.


Lol, yes, the problem is ALWAYS assumed to be electrical unless we can prove otherwise. 

In my experience, it's roughly 50/50 electrical vs. mechanical.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

The best class I've taken for general troubleshooting is "Introduction to Logic". It was a 3 credit, 12 week, college course. It develops concrete ways to deductive decision making and is the basis for troubleshooting trees.


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## DIRT27 (Aug 25, 2010)

I did a PLC troubleshooting course a few years ago that was pretty good. It was a download with a simulator and you work at your own pace. They would test you after the modules on the simulator and it would score you when you found it. It looks like it is all cloud based now and you can't buy the individual modules but I am sure there product is still pretty good.



https://www.simutechmultimedia.com/products/


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

As said there really isn't anything that will specifically teach you troubleshooting. Being good at troubleshooting comes from knowledge and experience. Learn everything you can about how electricity and the associated equipment works. If you can get a sense of how most things should operate you will have a good sense on what is preventing it from operating. Get as hands on as you can. The first question you should as is what is it supposed to do. 

Always remember to look for the obvious uncomplicated stuff. That is what will normally bite you in the ass.


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## bin95 (Jan 27, 2012)

backstay said:


> ... You can't teach it, you can only learn the systems.


Actually you can teach good troubleshooting. I think part of what you are eluding to is that the more experience you get troubleshooting, the better you will become. (You can't get that kind of experience from reading book.) But now days, we have *electrical troubleshooting simulation software* that not only teaches you best practices in electrical troubleshooting, but also trains you, and delivers years of experience (practice troubleshooting) in just days.


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## DIRT27 (Aug 25, 2010)

bin95 said:


> Actually you can teach good troubleshooting. I think part of what you are eluding to is that the more experience you get troubleshooting, the better you will become. (You can't get that kind of experience from reading book.) But now days, we have *electrical troubleshooting simulation software* that not only teaches you best practices in electrical troubleshooting, but also trains you, and delivers years of experience (practice troubleshooting) in just days.



That is true but it seems to click with some and others it doesn't. I have worked with guys that have been around for a long time that just don't have it. I think it is a combination of intelligence, interest, and patience is what really makes a good troubleshooter. You have to take the time to understand how equipment works and figure out what it isn't doing. Most guys lack something in the combination of the three things above.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

A real strong grasp and understanding of basic electrical theory goes a long way.


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## bin95 (Jan 27, 2012)

True with some, missing the aptitude. I am that way with mechanics. I can visualize 1/0s all the way down to integrated circuits, understand most physics, etc. ... know mechanical should be easy comparatively speaking, yet I struggle and bang my knuckles.  Same with my two boys. Both raised the same, yet my social mechanical son struggles with computers and problem solving, the other struggles with mechanical and not too social.  They are both equal, just different aptitudes, interest and personalities.

Kind of messes with that "we are a product of our environment" argument, but does lean towards that "you are who you hang out with" argument. At least for my two boys.


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