# Welcome LEDs, and welcome back 1960s retro flickering Disappointing lamp quality



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Fluorescent lighting is where it's at!


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I havent noticed any flicker in any of the LED's I've used. I've used Sylvania, FEIT, and some Chinese brand I cant determine. They all have much better light quality than CFLs.

I have NOT tried to dim any of them.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Fluorescent lighting is where it's at!


If these LED lamps utilized a power supply with output regulation quality comparable to high quality electronic fluorescent ballasts, they wouldn't have flicker issues. I am not sure if this is due to the pressure to make the <$10 retail price target, efficiency pressure so something in ~5-10W INPUT power range can have 80+ lumens power watt efficacy or the combination of both. 

There are electronic ballasts that contain excessive flicker too. LED products should not be built with inferior quality power supply. Take a small solar cell and watch the output while looking at a LED lamp on your portable scope. 
Do the same with electronic ballasted light in a commercial building. 

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/flicker_fact-sheet.pdf

This explains flicker and it is easy to understand. The picture on upper right corner of first page explains the typical LED product problem. Not an LED problem, LED *PRODUCT* problem, which are often implemented with a lousy power supply. 

Just look at how *INFERIOR *some of their LED product samples were compared to 1960s magnetic ballast technology. 
The one labeled "Electronically-ballasted CFL (Quad Tube)" on third page is something you would expect from a good commercial grade ballast. Quad tube CFL is typically externally ballasted, just like linear lamps.



dspiffy said:


> They all have much better light quality than CFLs.
> I have NOT tried to dim any of them.


Please quantify your assertion of better. LEDs dim similar to fluorescent. If you refer to the PDF I just linked in, you can see the flicker issue I brought up. This is a problem with poor quality fluorescent systems too. Many disposable ballasts in CFLs were plagued with premature burn-outs. 

When dimmed, the output changes while the color stays fairly constant compared to incandescent which goes from bright yellow to orange to dark orange.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

they just have to start making drivers with pure dc output (like a power supply) , no more problem


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

oliquir said:


> they just have to start making drivers with *pure dc* output (like a power supply) , no more problem


Yep, if it can be done without compromising the efficacy. Larger devices have an advantage here. Having 15 5W power supplies to have the efficiency of one 75W power supply is a technical challenge. 

DC in its crudest form is simply redirecting the polarity of AC so its facing the same way and this is what you get from a bridge rectifier so you have a roller coaster that goes back and forth between peak and zero. 

A design that passes on a good amount of ripple has a current waveform that sort of follows the voltage waveform responds to dimming, has less THD(at maximum output), but flickers just as bad, or worse than magnetic ballast fluorescent. 

Fluorescent dimming ballasts Lutron Electronics TuWire and OSRAM SYLVANIA PowerSense two-wire do not suffer from cheap LED bulb type flicker even when dimmed to 5% but fluorescent dimming is limited in efficiency from having to keep the heaters powered. These ballasts use a much more sophisticated but provides dimming with no flicker while maintaining low THD.


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## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

Don't they use some kind of phosphor to smooth out the essentially 60Hz pulses in some of the higher-end LED fixtures? I've noticed how some of the can retros have a bit of a glow-in-the-dark for a couple of seconds after power is removed. These same can retros (Sylvania) have quite nice light output which seems to be almost exactly like a typical incandescent.

TWN


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Quit f*cking with cheap Home Depot crap and then complaining that all LED lights suck.

I've got a couple of Phillips LED bulbs in pendants over my kitchen peninsula and they are awesome.

I've installed several LED can lights on dimmers, including a new lighting setup for a 911 dispatch center, and the light quality was top notch, regardless of where your dimmer is set at. I believe those were Halo cans and LED modules (they were installed new - not retrofit kits). That was several years ago and they're still going strong, no failures yet.

Here's my kitchen lights. I originally had some 60 watt incandescents in there but the light output and color with the LEDs is just about spot-on as far as I can tell. (Daytime picture doesn't really do it justice)


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah I'm with eric, i install the high end philips led's for customers and they love them and I love them. Most people can't tell they're not even "regular" bulbs.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I love my LED's. I've got 18 - 12.5 phillips par 38 in cans, four 9 watt Halos in 4" cans. I've got a 10 watt rab mini wall pack. A 17 watt alamp in my porch light and a 2 watt puck light that acts as a night lite in my living room because it's on the photo eye with my exterior lights. I have no plans of buying incandescent ever again. Cfl or led for me. With me it's about all the extra heat. And my electric bill max's out at $650 during the summer.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I love my LED's. I've got 18 - 12.5 phillips par 38 in cans, four 9 watt Halos in 4" cans. I've got a 10 watt rab mini wall pack. A 17 watt alamp in my porch light and a 2 watt puck light that acts as a night lite in my living room because it's on the photo eye with my exterior lights. I have no plans of buying incandescent ever again. Cfl or led for me. With me it's about all the extra heat. And my electric bill max's out at $650 during the summer.


Holy crap  I haven't had an electric bill over $80 since I moved into this house!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Pool, plus AC in an uninsulated house, a black shingle roof and 23 50's style single pane windows with 3 door walls that the afternoon sun beat on relentlessly. No trees for shade. It sucks. 

Windows are next on our to do list.


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## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

Bkessler said:


> Pool, plus AC in an uninsulated house, a black shingle roof and 23 50's style single pane windows with 3 door walls that the afternoon sun beat on relentlessly. No trees for shade. It sucks.
> 
> Windows are next on our to do list.


Insulation and curtains might be a better investment.

Inverter A/C such as a mini-split is WAY cheaper to operate than fixed speed compressor. 

TWN


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

It's a brand new AC and I did have 3 zone dampers put in so we don't have to cool the whole house all the time. I also don't have a ridge vent and need better ventilation in my attic. Insulation is on the to do list too. But the gaps in my windows is ridiculous. Air moves in and out with ease.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Good, don't keep all that cold air to yourself, someone has to help fight global warming! 

:laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Good, don't keep all that cold air to yourself, someone has to help fight global warming! :laughing:


I'am in the wrong place. I like lows in 30's and highs in 50's. Now that's good working weather.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Move to Vancouver (Canaduh), that's about our weather all year.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Move to Vancouver (Canaduh), that's about our weather all year.


I'am hoping climate change makes SoCal wetter and cooler.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I'am hoping climate change makes SoCal wetter and cooler.


Global warming is kind of an improvement here in Oregon.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Global warming is kind of an improvement here in Oregon.


We had a carpentry crew from Oregon roughing houses with us in one neighborhood i wired said " in Oregon if you don't work in the rain, you don't work. "


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> I love my LED's. I've got 18 - 12.5 phillips par 38 in cans, four 9 watt Halos in 4" cans. I've got a 10 watt rab mini wall pack. A 17 watt alamp in my porch light and a 2 watt puck light that acts as a night lite in my living room because it's on the photo eye with my exterior lights. I have no plans of buying incandescent ever again. Cfl or led for me. With me it's about all the extra heat. And my electric bill max's out at $650 during the summer.


I agree. CFL's were a temporary fix in my opinion. I've use a lot of Sylvania products. They dim just fine. LED's in reach in coolers blow traditional fluorescents out of the water.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> We had a carpentry crew from Oregon roughing houses with us in one neighborhood i wired said " in Oregon if you don't work in the rain, you don't work. "


That's true, man :laughing: Annual rainfall here on the central Oregon Coast is something like 140 inches per year. The interior valleys are pretty soggy outside of summer, but not quite as much.

If I wasn't willing to work in the rain, I definitely wouldn't work. Though I try to coordinate indoor work with rainy weather.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Quit f*cking with cheap Home Depot crap and then complaining that all LED lights suck.


You can only get CREE locally at the Home Depot and this is the very respected brand. The CREE CR6 is my go to for cans. The light output is very steady and do not have pulses that interfere with cameras or moving parts showing moire effect.


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