# Madison Bars



## Deep Cover

I'd ask for proof.


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## Chrisibew440

I'm curious. What's a Madison bar and an OWC clip and a gem box?


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## bkmichael65

Chrisibew440 said:


> I'm curious. What's a Madison bar and an OWC clip and a gem box?


Madison bars are slang for cut in box support. Gem box is just an old work box


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## Voltron

Use them all the time for walls and cabinets and have never had any issues with inspectors in our area anyway...


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## robmac85

OWC clips are the things the you slide on the edge of the box and when you tighten the screw the clip pulls inward securing the box against the sheetrock.


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## Chrisibew440

robmac85 said:


> OWC clips are the things the you slide on the edge of the box and when you tighten the screw the clip pulls inward securing the box against the sheetrock.


I know those as cut-in or tiger boxes. And a tiger box without the wings come with "battleships" a clip that you have to add to the box by sliding it between the drywall and the box and then folding in the two metal pieces into the interior of the box. These clips look like battleships.


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## robmac85

Chrisibew440 said:


> I know those as cut-in or tiger boxes. And a tiger box without the wings come with "battleships" a clip that you have to add to the box by sliding it between the drywall and the box and then folding in the two metal pieces into the interior of the box. These clips look like battleships.


It's funny how the trade names vary across the country.


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## drspec

Chrisibew440 said:


> I know those as cut-in or tiger boxes. And a tiger box without the wings come with "battleships" a clip that you have to add to the box by sliding it between the drywall and the box and then folding in the two metal pieces into the interior of the box. These clips look like battleships.


 gem box, single cut in, gangable box

battleship straps, f clips/straps, jiffy clips/strap, Madison straps


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## B4T

These are Madison straps or clips...


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## Chrisibew440

B4T said:


> These are Madison straps or clips...


Yep there's the battleships.


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## Chrisibew440

robmac85 said:


> It's funny how the trade names vary across the country.


Yeah I dig on it.


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## Jlarson

Hit the dumb ass (a.k.a. inspector) in the head with a gem box.


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## bigmiketino

Jlarson said:


> Hit the dumb ass (a.k.a. inspector) in the head with a gem box.


Thats what I would do...LOL


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## brian john

A better response is really, well can you show me in the NEC, I looked and can't find it.

Then when he ca't find it, hit him with a gem box and say "You dumb f*ck, how many electricians have you screwed with your arrogance, ignorance and stupidity.


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## chicken steve

Is this an issue of support listing...? ~CS~


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## Southeast Power

robmac85 said:


> I had an inspector tell me the other day that madison bars are no longer legal to use on gem boxes in existing walls. Only the OWC clips are able to be used now. I checked the code but I didnt see anything about that. I like to use OWC clips because they hold tighter but somtimes the madisons work better along side of a stud and they're cheaper ha. Anyone hear of this?


I hate them but, have to admit, the really hold a cut-in box tight to the wall.
Some people call them "battle ships" I always called them Madison Clips.


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## Southeast Power

robmac85 said:


> I had an inspector tell me the other day that madison bars are no longer legal to use on gem boxes in existing walls. Only the OWC clips are able to be used now. I checked the code but I didnt see anything about that. I like to use OWC clips because they hold tighter but somtimes the madisons work better along side of a stud and they're cheaper ha. Anyone hear of this?


When you get older and don't give a crap about what inspectors might be able to do to you, just say, that doesn't sound right to me, do you really want to die on that hill boy.


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## Going_Commando

How do those owc clips work? I hate mad straps, but didn't realize there were any other options. Anyone use these?


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## drspec

Going_Commando said:


> How do those owc clips work? I hate mad straps, but didn't realize there were any other options. Anyone use these?


theyre very difficult to use


first you snap them onto the side of the box
then you push the box into the wall
and then you turn the screw with a screwdriver or drill 

practice man....youll get it :laughing:


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## DIYer4Life

I don't like OWCs. Madison bars, IMO, work much better.

Hell, I don't like any metal gem box, too small and no good support method. Plastic boxes with flappers FTW!


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## Going_Commando

DIYer4Life said:


> I don't like OWCs. Madison bars, IMO, work much better.
> 
> Hell, I don't like any metal gem box, too small and no good support method. Plastic boxes with flappers FTW!


I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:


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## DIYer4Life

Going_Commando said:


> I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:


I've seen them before, not sure who made them and I haven't seen them often.


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## Shockdoc

He might be following NYC codes where Madison clips are outlawed.


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## Shockdoc

Going_Commando said:


> I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:


 They make em, 2 3/4 and 3" deep gem boxes with built in OWCs, they are expensive however.


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## Deep Cover

One place I worked didn't know the term Madison's...they insisted we called them Hold-Its.


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## robmac85

DIYer4Life said:


> I don't like OWCs. Madison bars, IMO, work much better.
> 
> Hell, I don't like any metal gem box, too small and no good support method. Plastic boxes with flappers FTW!


Thats what I'm sayin. I wish they would come up with a metal box with the same idea as the plastic old work boxes so we could use them with MC. Now wouldnt that be somethin':thumbup:


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## DIYer4Life

robmac85 said:


> Thats what I'm sayin. I wish they would come up with a metal box with the same idea as the plastic old work boxes so we could use them with MC. Now wouldnt that be somethin':thumbup:


And bigger like plastic boxes.


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## drsparky

Growing up in Wisconsin I saw the thread title and natural assumed.......


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## Loose Neutral

Deep Cover said:


> One place I worked didn't know the term Madison's...they insisted we called them Hold-Its.[/QUOT That's what we call them. Hold its or hold ems.


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## captkirk

I would shake his hand and say "good luck with that"...let me know how it works out for you..


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## markore

Chrisibew440 said:


> I know those as cut-in or tiger boxes.


Curious, do you know the origin of the tiger box slang?

In Washington DC area the Lowes stock Steel City metal larger plaster ears with a built-in swing clamp like on plastic boxes that can be screwed on to replace the ears that come with cut-in boxes or to use a square box with a flush mudring.

If you use the ears with square boxes and flush mudrings the ears do stick out farther than most cover plates so I only use them in furnace rooms.

Don't forget to carry some 3/4 inch #4 screws for the little holes in plaster ears when attaching to paneling, structured wiring enclosures, or when you need a little extra support in plaster. Pre-drill with 1/16 or smaller.


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## markore

I don't care for the compressible side clip on clamps much because they are hard to work with around studs and also there more of a one shot consumable item than something you can release and reuse later. I've been known to pop a gem box back out for access to a stud cavity when change orders happen.


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## markore

If you live close to the Canadian border they have a ton of bad a** rework support brackets that put ours to shame. there are some videos on the Thomas & Betts YouTube channel.


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## bmailman20

I've always known them as Madison clips, but started calling them battleships after seeing it on here about a year ago. My co-corners laughed so when I said battleships. To each his own.


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## chicken steve

Going_Commando said:


> I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:



Dunno 'bout Steel city, but i've never been overly enthused about some conductable flapper Commando....


~CS~


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## Wirenuting

chicken steve said:


> Dunno 'bout Steel city, but i've never been overly enthused about some conductable flapper Commando.... ~CS~


I dislike them also and very rarely use them.
They are a great invention, but I would rather cut the wall open and install a nail on next to a stud.


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## DERITM

They're actually "Madson hangers" after the early manufacturer.


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## HARRY304E

Wirenuting said:


> I dislike them also and very rarely use them.
> They are a great invention, but I would rather cut the wall open and install a nail on next to a stud.


All you need is to fined a stud and use these.:thumbup:

http://www.smartboxinc.com/electrical_boxes.php#1

.


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## Wirenuting

HARRY304E said:


> All you need is to fined a stud and use these.:thumbup: http://www.smartboxinc.com/electrical_boxes.php#1 .


I don't know. Plastic boxes seem like decaffeinated coffee to me. 

I'll stick to steel.


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## jeffmoss26

DERITM said:


> They're actually "Madson hangers" after the early manufacturer.


Madison Electric Products...based here in Cleveland.


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## Chrisibew440

markore said:


> Curious, do you know the origin of the tiger box slang?
> 
> In Washington DC area the Lowes stock Steel City metal larger plaster ears with a built-in swing clamp like on plastic boxes that can be screwed on to replace the ears that come with cut-in boxes or to use a square box with a flush mudring.
> 
> If you use the ears with square boxes and flush mudrings the ears do stick out farther than most cover plates so I only use them in furnace rooms.
> 
> Don't forget to carry some 3/4 inch #4 screws for the little holes in plaster ears when attaching to paneling, structured wiring enclosures, or when you need a little extra support in plaster. Pre-drill with 1/16 or smaller.


Yeah I'm not sure. I would think manufacturer off hand but never looked into it. I've heard "tiger grips" as well.


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## JRaef

Just a stupid point of semantics, but saying "OWC clips" is redundant. OWC stands for Old Work Clips. So it's like saying "old work clips clips".

Ok, let the flames begin...


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## BBQ

JRaef said:


> Just a stupid point of semantics, but saying "OWC clips" is redundant. OWC stands for Old Work Clips. So it's like saying "old work clips clips".
> 
> Ok, let the flames begin...


We need to place a bet on this, let me stop by the ATM machine and get some cash.


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## bkmichael65

JRaef said:


> Just a stupid point of semantics, but saying "OWC clips" is redundant. OWC stands for Old Work Clips. So it's like saying "old work clips clips".
> 
> Ok, let the flames begin...


Do I use this :smartass: or this :nerd:?


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## CopperSlave

BBQ said:


> We need to place a bet on this, let me stop by the ATM machine and get some cash.


 I was going to place a bet too but, I don't have the money because my hot water heater broke.


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## B4T

I have seen plenty of Madison straps installed the wrong way and that leads to boxes being pulled out of the wall when a cleaning lady pulls the plug on her vacuum.. 

There is a long side and a short side to these clips.... the short side has to be pointed to the bottom of the box...

Reason is if the clip becomes loose.. the box can't come out of the wall...

After you bend the clips over.. squeeze it shut with needle nose pliers.. 

The clip should not be able to slide on the side of the box..


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## jeffmoss26

CopperSlave said:


> I was going to place a bet too but, I don't have the money because my hot water heater broke.


I had trouble accessing the site to reply to this, I had to replace the NIC card in my computer.


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## Wirenuting

CopperSlave said:


> I was going to place a bet too but, I don't have the money because my hot water heater broke.


Sorry to jump off topic,,. But I have to ask. 

What does a "Hot" water heater look like and why who'd you buy one


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## CopperSlave

Wirenuting said:


> Sorry to jump off topic,,. But I have to ask.
> 
> What does a "Hot" water heater look like and why who'd you buy one


I'm told they resemble a regular water heater...but they are for hot water. I only bought it because the guy at the store told me that was what I needed.:blink:


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## CopperSlave

One thing is for sure......we here at ET can derail a thread quicker than that dude in the Bronx can derail a train.:whistling2:


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## newbi

B4T said:


> I have seen plenty of Madison straps installed the wrong way and that leads to boxes being pulled out of the wall when a cleaning lady pulls the plug on her vacuum..
> 
> There is a long side and a short side to these clips.... the short side has to be pointed to the bottom of the box...
> 
> Reason is if the clip becomes loose.. the box can't come out of the wall...
> 
> After you bend the clips over.. squeeze it shut with needle nose pliers..
> 
> The clip should not be able to slide on the side of the box..


Are there instructions by the manufacturer on how to install the clips ? I distinctly remember my teacher telling us that one side goes up and the other down (short/long ends).

What you describe makes sense and has piqued my curiosity as to how to actually install these clips.


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## B4T

newbi said:


> Are there instructions by the manufacturer on how to install the clips ? I distinctly remember my teacher telling us that one side goes up and the other down (short/long ends).
> 
> What you describe makes sense and has piqued my curiosity as to how to actually install these clips.


You put the short side down because when the clip is bent over it holds the box in the wall even if the clip slides all the way down on the side of the box...


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## Wirenuting

newbi said:


> Are there instructions by the manufacturer on how to install the clips ? I distinctly remember my teacher telling us that one side goes up and the other down (short/long ends). What you describe makes sense and has piqued my curiosity as to how to actually install these clips.


No instructions that I've ever seen. You could check their website. Just make sure you pull the strap out as you press the box into the wall tightly.


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## hardworkingstiff

No one every instructed me to put the long side up. It was just understood that is the way it needed to go by looking at the construction and how it operated.

That makes me think about a post someone made about mechanical aptitude. I think someone with mechanical aptitude would know w/out instructions to put the long side up.


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## B4T

hardworkingstiff said:


> No one every instructed me to put the long side up. It was just understood that is the way it needed to go by looking at the construction and how it operated.
> 
> That makes me think about a post someone made about mechanical aptitude. I think someone with mechanical aptitude would know w/out instructions to put the long side up.


Only if you took the time to think about how it works...

Most guys are in a hurry and this is why they get installed upside down...


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## BBQ

hardworkingstiff said:


> No one every instructed me to put the long side up. It was just understood that is the way it needed to go by looking at the construction and how it operated.
> 
> That makes me think about a post someone made about mechanical aptitude. I think someone with mechanical aptitude would know w/out instructions to put the long side up.


I do one up and one down.

If you cut the hole right they can't pull out even if they slide down.


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## hardworkingstiff

CopperSlave said:


> I was going to place a bet too but, I don't have the money because my hot water heater broke.


That's what you get for heating hot water. 

(I would have just thanked your post but I'm out, so I made this comment instead).


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Only if you took the time to think about how it works...
> 
> Most guys are in a hurry and this is why they get installed upside down...


There is no right way, there is only personal choice.


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## hardworkingstiff

BBQ said:


> I do one up and one down.


Why?


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> There is no right way, there is only personal choice.


But your way a clip can slide out of the box.. that can't be right.. :no::no:


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## BBQ

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why?


My preference is to secure things from each end. 

It's not a big deal but none of this is, if the installer is carful both ways work fine nd will last for along time. 

I take the time to cut a tight hole, adjust the box ears to the right depth, straighten the box if it has been bent in shipping, break the 'mouse ears' off of the device, put the bars in tight and crimp the fold witha tool and I use metal device plates. I feel they help clamp everything to the Sheetrock much more than plastic.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> But your way a clip can slide out of the box.. that can't be right.. :no::no:


Actually if you cut the hole tight to the box the bar cannot fallout, the bar is too long without angling it kitty corner ...... Unless you are cutting the hole to big.


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## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> There is no right way, there is only personal choice.


Same. Don't know why.


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## NacBooster29

We did a huge fire alarm project with probably 1000 old work octagons in the ceilings for heats and smokes. We zipped the holes with a 4" hole saw and popped the boxes in then snap the owc in the corners that are rounded off. Huge time saver rather than key hole saw and mad straps.


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## BlackHowling

These are what we use up here. Only use those F-clips on switch boxes.


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## StaticFilter

B4T said:


> These are Madison straps or clips...


Steamboats here


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## StaticFilter

Oops


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## 360max

BBQ said:


> *There is no right way*, there is only personal choice.


there is a right way, the manufacture states the short side down


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## Rollie73

Going_Commando said:


> I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:












Like these???:whistling2:


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## BBQ

360max said:


> there is a right way, the manufacture states the short side down


Show me.


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## Rollie73

The right way to install Madison bars/battleships/f-clips is so that the box doesn't fall out. Pretty simple.



I've been installing in them in the manner BBQ described with one up and one down for a long time and haven't had a box fall out of the wall.....EVER


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## Hippie

Rollie73 said:


> The right way to install Madison bars/battleships/f-clips is so that the box doesn't fall out. Pretty simple.
> 
> I've been installing in them in the manner BBQ described with one up and one down for a long time and haven't had a box fall out of the wall.....EVER


I used to do one up one down because that's how I learned to do it then one day I realized there was a top and bottom and it makes more sense to put them both short end down. That being said as long as its a tight hole either way is fine


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Show me.


It takes "common sense" to understand the concept.. you don't have any.. :whistling2::laughing:


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> It takes "common sense" to understand the concept.. you don't have any.. :whistling2::laughing:


Buried boxes, empty van, beeper, bullhorn to yell out car window, signs on fence about a car, ......


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## ponyboy

BBQ said:


> Buried boxes, empty van, beeper, bullhorn to yell out car window, signs on fence about a car, ......


Troll proof dude. Troll proof


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## 480sparky

Going_Commando said:


> I don't get why they just don't make steel boxes with flappers. It would be so fricken easy to do. Im going to email steel city and ask them wtf are they doing. :laughing:


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## B4T

ponyboy said:


> Troll proof dude. Troll proof


Pony.. this is your third attempt trying to start trouble with me.. why not give it up and go troll somebody else..


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Buried boxes, empty van, beeper, bullhorn to yell out car window, signs on fence about a car, ......


So what is the point.. those are all problem solvers that have worked 100%.. 

At least I don't need an 80# bag of cement to set a paper thin aluminum post light in somebody's front yard.. :no:


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## brian john

Rollie73 said:


> The right way to install Madison bars/battleships/f-clips is so that the box doesn't fall out. Pretty simple.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been installing in them in the manner BBQ described with one up and one down for a long time and haven't had a box fall out of the wall.....EVER


I did the BBQ method since 1970 and did it because it seemed logical.


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## B4T

brian john said:


> I did the BBQ method since 1970 and did it because it seemed logical.


But isn't it more logical to install the clips with both short sides pointing down.. :blink::blink:

Look at any image on Google and that is how they show it.....

There is a short side and a long side.... one way has to be right and the other way wrong...


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## 360max

BBQ and Brian must really miss Cletis, they have taken over his troll duties. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## nrp3

Mad bars and I think I'd rather argue over bacon. Oh, and one up and one down.


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## ponyboy

Troll proof


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## McClary’s Electrical

My Madison straps have arrows on them


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## BBQ

mcclary's electrical said:


> My Madison straps have arrows on them


Are the arrows supposed to point up or down?


Can you still use them with horizontal boxes?



:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> Are the arrows supposed to point up or down?
> 
> Can you still use them with horizontal boxes?
> 
> :laughing:


I should have been more clear. They have an arrow with the word "up". 


I have definitely used them opposite and horizontal.


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## 360max

BBQ said:


> Are the arrows supposed to point up or down?
> 
> 
> Can you still use them with horizontal boxes?
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing:


..they sell horizontal boxes?


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## markore

*Mechanical Support*

This thread is a good example of how electricians differ on their idea of mechanical support or "mechanically secure":


some do it the way they were taught
some do it the way they've always done it
some read the directions or ask for guidance
some do it whatever way is fastest
some obsess and test it for weeks, but don't get any actual work done
*wait* -- that last one was an engineer!


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## markore

*Adjustable Depth*



360max said:


> ..they sell horizontal boxes?












I like the single gang and double gang metal adjustable boxes, 3.5 deep, cheaper than tile mud rings and you can go flush or 1/8 with them for paneling.










For rework these plaster ears are handy: (Steel city: OW SWING EAR Amazon: B005IMHEOU)
They screw on to most boxes without drilling/tapping. If you drill your own holes only one tapped hole is required because it has an integral clamp on one side.


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## brian john

B4T said:


> But isn't it more logical to install the clips with both short sides pointing down.. :blink::blink:
> 
> Look at any image on Google and that is how they show it.....
> 
> There is a short side and a long side.... one way has to be right and the other way wrong...


I truly do not think it makes an F'ing difference. I thought it was logical 43 years ago and have done it that way (up until I quit working in the field) with no call backs.


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## B4T

brian john said:


> I truly do not think it makes an F'ing difference. I thought it was logical 43 years ago and have done it that way (up until I quit working in the field) with no call backs.


Not all installers are as gifted as you... they have to be installed by employees.. some of which have trouble with the most simplest of tasks...

Teach someone the right way of doing a job and it should stay with them for life.. :thumbsup:


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## brian john

B4T said:


> Not all installers are as gifted as you... they have to be installed by employees.. some of which have trouble with the most simplest of tasks...
> 
> Teach someone the right way of doing a job and it should stay with them for life.. :thumbsup:


Then they are not professionals and for Christ Sakes if they cannot get an old work box to hold in a wall they should quit.

That we are even discussing this is a freaking joke. 

NOT AN ISSUE, NOT A PROBLEM


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## B4T

brian john said:


> Then they are not professionals and for Christ Sakes if they cannot get an old work box to hold in a wall they should quit.
> 
> That we are even discussing this is a freaking joke.
> 
> NOT AN ISSUE, NOT A PROBLEM


No... it is an issue... I have repaired enough of the boxes that were falling out of the wall to make that statement....

The MAIN REASON for failure was the strap was installed upside down and not tightened correctly to begin with..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> No... it is an issue... I have repaired enough of the boxes that were falling out of the wall to make that statement....
> 
> The MAIN REASON for failure was the strap was installed upside down *and not tightened correctly* to begin with..


Bingo, not put in tightly.

B, give it up, a number of very experienced people do it successfully and differently than you.

That is not to say your way is wrong, both ways work fine if made up in the right size hole and are made tight. 

I don't get call backs.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Bingo, not put in tightly.
> 
> B, give it up, a number of very experienced people do it successfully and differently than you.
> 
> That is not to say your way is wrong, both ways work fine if made up in the right size hole and are made tight.
> 
> I don't get call backs.


My point is even the guys who suck at cutting a box in drywall correctly can benefit by installing the straps with both short sides facing down...

I have seen boxes so butchered up the only repair I could make was to cut in a 2/gang so I had some new drywall to support the box.....

SOP for guys doing commercial work here during the building boom was to rock the walls completely and have the EC use OW boxes and Madison straps to wire the offices.. :no::no:


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## 360max

...madison clips that are installed with short end up are more prone to fail, especially if the outlet has things plugged and unplugged frequently.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> My point is even the guys who suck at cutting a box in drywall correctly can benefit by installing the straps with both short sides facing down...
> 
> I have seen boxes so butchered up the only repair I could make was to cut in a 2/gang so I had some new drywall to support the box.....
> 
> SOP for guys doing commercial work here during the building boom was to rock the walls completely and have the EC use OW boxes and Madison straps to wire the offices.. :no::no:


:sleep1::sleep1:


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## B4T

360max said:


> ...madison clips that are installed with short end up are more prone to fail, especially if the outlet has things plugged and unplugged frequently.


Some here can't get that concept.. they tend to yawn a lot.. :no:


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## markore

*Stirring the pot*

Are madison straps listed for metal old work boxes?

:jester: If the manufacturers instructions or stamped orientation are not followed then does an upside down install rank as bad as splicing rope light or hard-wiring a cord-connected sconce in violation of the instructions? :jester:


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## markore

*Is there a requirement on how thick these things have to be?*



B4T said:


> ... and not tightened correctly to begin with..


Not surprising since it seems like they are now making them out of thinner and thinner stamped "steel" (flashing?) with all the holding power of a slice of american extruded cheddar product. 

If you make your own how thick do they have to be? Or do they have to be listed? :whistling2:


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## markore

*OWC Clips*



Going_Commando said:


> How do those owc clips work? I hate mad straps, but didn't realize there were any other options. Anyone use these?


Think you will dislike using the OWC. (old work "single use" clips) Tends to crush the drywall, can't release them easily. The OW SWING EARS are superior if you may need to pull the box back out to get access later, but they take up more room top/bottom.
Want a huge bag of "OWC" snap straps I'm never going to use? Pick them up from me in DC or Dayton Ohio.

...Or share your tricks for using them.


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## daveEM

I put the short ends down.

Going to fish a receptacle in the ceiling later today. I'm not sure what I'll do.


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## BBQ

markore said:


> Are madison straps listed for metal old work boxes?
> 
> :jester: If the manufacturers instructions or stamped orientation are not followed then does an upside down install rank as bad as splicing rope light or hard-wiring a cord-connected sconce in violation of the instructions? :jester:


Supports are not required to be listed. 

Do you have listed screws to hang a surface box on a wall?

Some of the mad bars I get are listed, most are not. 

In either case I have never seen any instructions of any type. 

If they are listed and they do have up arrows we can't use them for horizontal boxes. 

Keep installing them however works for you and makes you happy.


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## Next72969

Amazing this thread carried on for this long


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## BBQ

Next72969 said:


> Amazing this thread carried on for this long


This is exactly the kind of thread that will not die. It's like Ford vs Chevy, Dewalt vs Bosch, R vs D, ground up vs down etc.

The reason is that there is no right answer, only people's personal choice.


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## MTW

Someone will have to explain how the orientation of the madison straps makes one bit of difference when they are installed tightly.


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> Someone will have to explain how the orientation of the madison straps makes one bit of difference when they are installed tightly.


Welcome back


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## MTW

BBQ said:


> Welcome back


Thanks. :thumbsup:

So, what's been going on around here? :whistling2:


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## Next72969

BBQ said:


> This is exactly the kind of thread that will not die. It's like Ford vs Chevy, Dewalt vs Bosch, R vs D, ground up vs down etc. The reason is that there is no right answer, only people's personal choice.


What gets me is how people dispute others preferences. Whats the big deal. I do one up one down btw. Lol


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> Thanks. :thumbsup:
> 
> So, what's been going on around here? :whistling2:


Well ...


Harry has been leaning to the right a bit

Macmike has dropped some links

eejack has been supporting the unions

Shockdoc has posted some family drama

Dennis has been deleting and keeping us kids in line

And I have been a pain in the ass while boosting my post count.


I think that about covers it for now.


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## MTW

BBQ said:


> Well ...
> 
> 
> Harry has been leaning to the right a bit
> 
> Macmike has dropped some links
> 
> eejack has been supporting the unions
> 
> Shockdoc has posted some family drama
> 
> Dennis has been deleting and keeping us kids in line
> 
> And I have been a pain in the ass while boosting my post count.
> 
> 
> I think that about covers it for now.


So what else is new? :laughing: 

You missed one...B4T is telling us how his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong.


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## BBQ

MTW said:


> So what else is new? :laughing:
> 
> You missed one...B4T is telling us how his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong.


 Damn it!


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## BBQ

Next72969 said:


> What gets me is how people dispute others preferences. Whats the big deal. I do one up one down btw. Lol


People are nuts. :jester:


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> Damn it!


I know that your apparent lack of common sense can be a handicap at times... but did it ever occur to you why the manufacture makes the straps with a long *and *a shiort side.... 

The answer is plain as day to a clear thinking person.. :thumbsup:


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## B4T

MTW said:


> So what else is new? :laughing:
> 
> You missed one...B4T is telling us how his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong.


Oh look who is back.. 

I explained why there is a right way to install the straps.. take the time to read the thread and you just might learn something... :thumbsup:


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## ponyboy

MTW said:


> Thanks. :thumbsup: So, what's been going on around here? :whistling2:


B4t is troll proof now.


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## B4T

ponyboy said:


> B4t is troll proof now.


Pony... that is attempt #5 at trying to start trouble... give it up already.. :no::no:


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## Dennis Alwon

Reminder here to watch the person issues. Thanks


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## Wirenuting

Dennis Alwon said:


> Reminder here to watch the person issues. Thanks


Wirenuting is a dirty hack and I want him banned!!!

oh wait, wrong ET screen name.


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## MTW

B4T said:


> Oh look who is back..
> 
> I explained why there is a right way to install the straps.. take the time to read the thread and you just might learn something... :thumbsup:


There is no right or wrong orientation of madison straps. The only thing that matter is they are securely clamped to the box and the hole is cut to the right size.


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## B4T

MTW said:


> There is no right or wrong orientation of madison straps. The only thing that matter is they are securely clamped to the box and the hole is cut to the right size.


So the inventor of these straps made a long side and a short side for no particular reason..

Why can't you see that pointing the short side down makes it impossible for the clip to come loose from the box. and fall inside the wall. :blink::blink:


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## MTW

B4T said:


> So the inventor of these straps made a long side and a short side for no particular reason..
> 
> Why can't you see that pointing the short side down makes it impossible for the clip to come loose from the box. and fall inside the wall. :blink::blink:



They were made with a short and long side so they could be installed at an angle and still fit in a 2X4 opening.

If they are loose enough to fall off the box, then it makes no difference which way they are pointing.


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## Big John

The only thing I have to contribute to this thread is the time I went to check a receptacle that someone had cut in, and the whole damn thing was sloppy-loose because the mad-bars weren't installed well.

I commented to the guy next to me_ "Some idiot needs to go back to receptacle-installation-school 101." _ He was the guy who cut it in.


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## EBFD6

B4T said:


> So the inventor of these straps made a long side and a short side for no particular reason


There is a reason, just not the one you think. It doesn't matter what direction they get installed. 

As others have said it's for installation of the strap in the hole. You slide the long end in first, push it all the way up (or down, it makes no difference) until you can't go any further due to the flaps hitting the edge of the hole. At this point you can push the short end into the hole. 

If they were the same length with the flaps centered you wouldn't be able to install them as easily. When you would try to install them the flaps would hit the edge of the sheetrock and the other end would still be too long to slide in the hole. 

That's why the flaps are offset leaving you with a long end and a short end.


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## nrp3

Bacon


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## BBQ

nrp3 said:


> Bacon


_Crispy_ bacon.


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## nrp3

I suppose in reality, my ideal bacon might be the same as yours, but who knows?


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## Wirenuting

BBQ said:


> Crispy bacon.


Floppy bacon


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## Voltron

Wirenuting said:


> Floppy bacon


Ok Madison straps has obviously ran its course...
New topic... Bacon..on English muffin or bagel??


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## papaotis

after all these years it just occurred to me that when madison straps were invented, its just possible that they wouldnt fall down the inside of a PLASTER AND LATH wall? used em many times, but never tested that theory!if used long side up


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## brian john

B4T said:


> So the inventor of these straps made a long side and a short side for no particular reason..
> 
> Why can't you see that pointing the short side down makes it impossible for the clip to come loose from the box. and fall inside the wall. :blink::blink:


Do it your way, we will do it our way and the Earth will continue to spin. Why do you have this never ending feeling you have to convince us of something that in the whole realm of electrical work is meaningless.


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## brian john

Wirenuting said:


> *Veggie* bacon


*FIFY* aaaaaaaaa


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## 347sparky

BBQ said:


> _Crispy_ bacon.


Yes, crispy bacon is needed to slide by the old work box, but it needs to be flexible enough to fold over and hold the box in place.


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## B4T

brian john said:


> Do it your way, we will do it our way and the Earth will continue to spin. Why do you have this never ending feeling you have to convince us of something that in the whole realm of electrical work is meaningless.


What is meaningless to you might be important to somebody else.. don't read the thread if it upset you.. :thumbsup:


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## nrp3

bagels or muffins. Grilled.


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## Voltron

nrp3 said:


> bagels or muffins. Grilled.


Bagels for bacon..muffins for sausage.


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## markore

BBQ said:


> Supports are not required to be listed.
> Do you have listed screws to hang a surface box on a wall?
> Some of the mad bars I get are listed, most are not.
> In either case I have never seen any instructions of any type.
> If they are listed and they do have up arrows we can't use them for horizontal boxes.
> Keep installing them however works for you and makes you happy.


Nice abstract BBQ, that just about covers every line of reasoning. Only bit you didn't hit on is the debate over screws used from the INside of a box to screw to the wall. 

In the past our crews have been failed by anne aurundal county maryland inspectors failed for screws not provided with the box (no in boxes without recessed holes to prevent contact like the In-Box NM boxes) and also for using screws without a pan-head for metal boxes.

So we can all agree listing is not required for screws OUTside boxes. :laughing:

For some reason I find the market and listing of clips & clamps & box accessories pretty fascinating, especially when it seems like canada has a lot more of them then we have down here... guess they have a bigger market for pimped out goodies when a 75 cent four square just won't do...

If you saw their improved version of madison straps you would never consider using an american one again, guaranteed. They are super slick.


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## markore

*Which end up in Canada*


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## markore

Its just cheap ass stamped sheet metal either way, no major difference in price if quantity is high enough, but minimum wholesale quantity is a pallet.

If you guys stop buying the super thin floppy old F style "battleship" style Madison strips from the stores maybe they will start stocking some of the better ones.

If you are moving enough to go in on a bulk order for 1000 - 5000 you can put me down for 100... strips of crunchy square bendy bacon... :thumbup:


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## OSHA_inspector

Voltron said:


> Use them all the time for walls and cabinets and have never had any issues with inspectors in our area anyway...


Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.


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## HackWork

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.


Hi Steve. OSHA does not inspect electrical installations, just sayin...


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## B-Nabs

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.





HackWork said:


> Hi Steve. OSHA does not inspect electrical installations, just sayin...


Also good work responding to a 6 year old thread where nearly every poster is no longer here. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## glen1971

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.





B-Nabs said:


> Also good work responding to a 6 year old thread where nearly every poster is no longer here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


I was gonna say after 5 1/2 years let me know the costs of the DNA testing to show it was me that did it anyway...:vs_laugh:


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## tmessner

Chrisibew440 said:


> Yep there's the battleships.


Nope. My sons called them "machine guns"


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## Signal1

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.


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## MechanicalDVR

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.


Interesting thread to troll!


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## Voltron

OSHA_inspector said:


> Thanks, I'll make sure to send one of my guys down there.


Sure thing. I'll send you the addresses. The only thing I remember for certain is that I was not wearing my safety glasses or hard hat, and definitely did the installs in tennis shoes.


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## B-Nabs

Voltron said:


> Sure thing. I'll send you the addresses. The only thing I remember for certain is that I was not wearing my safety glasses or hard hat, and definitely did the installs in tennis shoes.


On the top step of the ladder no doubt. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR

Voltron said:


> Sure thing. I'll send you the addresses. The only thing I remember for certain is that I was not wearing my safety glasses or hard hat, and definitely did the installs in tennis shoes.


Because the shoes went perfectly with your bathing suit and tank top?


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## MechanicalDVR

B-Nabs said:


> On the top step of the ladder no doubt.


The special ladder with the duct taped leg no doubt!


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## Bird dog

HackWork said:


> Hi Steve. OSHA does not inspect electrical installations, just sayin...


Apparently, work is slow right now & the bosses want some inside work done...:biggrin:


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## macmikeman

Voltron said:


> Sure thing. I'll send you the addresses. The only thing I remember for certain is that I was not wearing my safety glasses or hard hat, and definitely did the installs in tennis shoes.



I managed to perform all three of those items yesterday flawlessly. Finished up the hardhat and hard toe boots job. Back to the good life......


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## macmikeman

B-Nabs said:


> On the top step of the ladder no doubt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


And that............


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## macmikeman

I also drilled three holes for three ceiling fans thru a 5" x 18' glue lam beam that spread across a wide as hell living room while accomplishing those 4, nay 5 mighty infractions....... :devil3:


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## Dennis Alwon

I seem to remember that that style clip was non compliant in NY many years ago-- 45-50 years ago. Not sure if that is still the case.

btw, here are some other names for them



> Also known as: 781002598503, Battleship, Battleships, Steamboats, F Clips, F-Clips, Fclip, F Clip, F-Clip, DOTSBS165, Dottie, SBS165, Box Supports, Metallic Box - Accessories, Boxes - Metallic, Boxes, Enclosures, elephant ears, bat wings, Madison Straps, donkey ears, e-strip, flex jaks 1/2 inch, angel wings, Madison bars, el camino, f-straps, broken ladder, Steam boat, Boat Clips, battle ship, metal piece, Madison clamps, solid snake, jones, Jiffy clips , rose city bars, Jacob's Ladder, sheetrock clamp, sows ears, LH Dottie


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## LGLS

Dennis Alwon said:


> I seem to remember that that style clip was non compliant in NY many years ago-- 45-50 years ago. Not sure if that is still the case.
> 
> btw, here are some other names for them



They were banned in NYC. And we also must tape our devices.


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## CMP

EBFD6 said:


> There is a reason, just not the one you think. It doesn't matter what direction they get installed.
> 
> As others have said it's for installation of the strap in the hole. You slide the long end in first, push it all the way up (or down, it makes no difference) until you can't go any further due to the flaps hitting the edge of the hole. At this point you can push the short end into the hole.
> 
> If they were the same length with the flaps centered you wouldn't be able to install them as easily. When you would try to install them the flaps would hit the edge of the sheetrock and the other end would still be too long to slide in the hole.
> 
> That's why the flaps are offset leaving you with a long end and a short end.


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## macmikeman

Without having to go read the 150 responses from a long time ago, I hope somebody at least pointed out that using clip in boxes or "Madison clips' on "gem" boxes is not allowed in the NEC for fire walls. The op might have been red tagged for having used the clips in a fire rated wall assembly, and that's why he got tagged.


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## Spark Master

Battle ships.


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