# Whirlpool tubs needing SP switches?



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Just installed a couple new gfi's for 2 whirlpools. My understanding of them is fairly straight forward - usaully dedicated 20 amp, need gfi protection, the cord serves as the disconnect, and there always needs to be an access to plug and cord. Well the HO informed me that her plummer said the manufacture requires a SP wall switch to be installed to control the gfi for them to recognize any sort of warranty....ok, whatever, we put them in. But is this just some crazy warranty requirement so they can screw over less detail-aware customers, or what? I meant to ask the inspector about it, but I didnt remeber till well after the final. Does anybody else here install a switch to control the whirlpool plug!??! I always thought the cord attached to the gfi was the disco!! Am I wrong??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Time for an RFI.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Time for an RFI.


Who you gonna send it into? The idiots that write these owners manuals?!


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

The NEC requires a disconnect which the cord and plug meets. I have never heard of the whole sp switch thing. Maybe the customer is supposed to predict when there is going to be a surge and turn off the unit before or the warranty is void. :shifty:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I always install a dead front GFCI in the room as a safety measure. The dead front controls the receptacle for the tub. GFCI is not allowed to be under the tub and a gfci breaker costs more than a dead front gfci.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I always install a dead front GFCI in the room as a safety measure. The dead front controls the receptacle for the tub. GFCI is not allowed to be under the tub and a gfci breaker costs more than a dead front gfci.


Why is a GFI receptacle not allowed under the tub? As long as the tub has an access panel then The cord on the motor and the GFI can easily be reached. If you dont put the GFI under the tib, you would have to hard wire the motor, wouldnt that void the warranty on the tub?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Why is a GFI receptacle not allowed under the tub? As long as the tub has an access panel then The cord on the motor and the GFI can easily be reached. If you dont put the GFI under the tib, you would have to hard wire the motor, wouldnt that void the warranty on the tub?



It must be readily accessible 680.71-- so I guess if it is underneath with a hinged door or something like that it may be okay. Generally it is a no no--- this change was made in 2008.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> WIf you dont put the GFI under the tib, you would have to hard wire the motor, wouldnt that void the warranty on the tub?



You install a standard receptacle under the tub not a gfci.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You install a standard receptacle under the tub not a gfci.


 Whats the difference installing a GFI or rec under the tub?.........Are you saying you prefer to put a deadfront GFI outside the tub, so nobody has to take the cover off to reset the GFI? For convience right? Not code or manufacture reasons?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Whats the difference installing a GFI or rec under the tub?.........Are you saying you prefer to put a deadfront GFI outside the tub, so nobody has to take the cover off to reset the GFI? For convience right? Not code or manufacture reasons?


I am saying that a gfci must be readily accessible. It is not readily accessible under the tub, at least not usually. The Dead front is a gfci and it is also a cut off for the customer if the air switches should ever stick in the on position. It also keeps kids from playing with it if you turn it off.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I am saying that a gfci must be readily accessible. It is not readily accessible under the tub, at least not usually. The Dead front is a gfci and it is also a cut off for the customer if the air switches should ever stick in the on position. It also keeps kids from playing with it if you turn it off.


 ok thanks


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You install a standard receptacle under the tub not a gfci.


 
Careful with that statement. A "standard" receptacle is often considered to be a duplex receptacle.
You must use a single receptacle under the tub as article 680.71 tells us that the tub must be on an individual branch circuit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Who you gonna send it into? The idiots that write these owners manuals?!


Whoever supplies the unit.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Whoever supplies the unit.


 Scratch that sarcastic remark of mine 480, its was past my bedtime and I was cranky. :whistling2:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> Careful with that statement. A "standard" receptacle is often considered to be a duplex receptacle.
> You must use a single receptacle under the tub as article 680.71 tells us that the tub must be on an individual branch circuit.


Actually it is on an individual cir and it does not need a single recep. If I use a single rec. then it must be rated for the OCPD. Thus a 20 amp cir needs a 20 amp single recep. There is nothing stating that it must be wired to a single device.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It must be readily accessible 680.71-- so I guess if it is underneath with a hinged door or something like that it may be okay. Generally it is a no no--- this change was made in 2008.


That access panel is NOT- Building structure or finish-IMO.


680.73 says GFI under the tub is OK. NEC 2011.

Accessibility:... (New)
PARA phrase, If it is cord/plug connected GFCI can be behind a 'service access panel' for the tub. 

"Rec Shall be installed so that its' face is within direct view and not more than 300mm(1 ft) of the opening."

As far as the switch,consult the tub instructions.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> That access panel is NOT- Building structure or finish-IMO.
> 
> 
> 680.73 says GFI under the tub is OK. NEC 2011.
> ...


 I disagree. 680.73 is talking about the electrical equipment of the tub. This allows the motors to not have readily accessible means but 680.71 clearly states that the gfci needs to be readily accessible. I guess one can argue what readily accessible is but generally if the access needs tool to remove the covering then it is not readily accessible. I know around here under the tub is an accepted no-no. IMO, it is a bad place for a gfci and I have never installed one under there.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I disagree. 680.73 is talking about the electrical equipment of the tub. This allows the motors to not have readily accessible means but 680.71 clearly states that the gfci needs to be readily accessible. I guess one can argue what readily accessible is but generally if the access needs tool to remove the covering then it is not readily accessible. I know around here under the tub is an accepted no-no. IMO, it is a bad place for a gfci and I have never installed one under there.


 Most access covers that I have seen are held on by magnets, or you just simply pop them off, nothing to it. If the customer buys the tubs that get a tile job around them, they just need to have an access panel installed where the motor cord and GFI are. And yes, if the access panel/cover requires a tool I can see an Inspector arguing "readily accessible".

Ive never used a dead front GFI on a situation like this before, I can see its benifits, and I can also see a picky HO not being happy with "how it looks". But this arguement obvously holds no water with the code, only dealing with a picky customer.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

-680.73 is talking about the electrical equipment of the tub.-

Correct,so the cord supplying the motor is part of that equipment.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Actually it is on an individual cir and it does not need a single recep. If I use a single rec. then it must be rated for the OCPD. Thus a 20 amp cir needs a 20 amp single recep. There is nothing stating that it must be wired to a single device.


Read the definition of Branch Circuit Individual and Branch Circuit , General Purpose.

*Branch Circuit, General-Purpose. ​*​​​​_A branch circuit that_
_supplies two or more receptacles or outlets for lighting and_
_appliances._​
*Branch Circuit, Individual. ​*​​​​_A branch circuit that supplies_
_only one utilization equipment._​
 
If you use a duplex receptacle you can have 2 peices of utilization equipment plugged in then it is not a individual branch circuit.

The commentary in the handbook explains it. 

From the 2011 Handbook commentary under Branch Circuit Individual:
an individual branch circuit with a single receptacle for connection of one piece of utilization equipment ( eg one dryer, one range, one space heater,one motor).
The 2002 Hanbook commentary said it best
From the 2002 NEC Handbook Commentary under Branch circuit Individual:
_An individual branch circuit supplies only one single receptacle for the connection of a single attachment plug. This single receptacle receptacle is required to have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit_.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I appreciate everyone clearing up any questions about whirlpool tubs. Dedicated circuit. GFI protection, DISCO being readily accessible. I understand everyone and everywhere does it a little different.

However, Im still wondering if has anyone else has ever had to install a switch to control that GFI protected receptacle - whether the inspector made you or just cause that was what the manufactures manual said? 
And Dennis, I imagine that faceless GFI you install, that you typically do it at switch height, right? If this is what the manufactures are enforcing then I want to have a heads up on it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> If you use a duplex receptacle you can have 2 peices of utilization equipment plugged in then it is not a individual branch circuit.


Again If the unit is plugged into the duplex then it can still be an individual branch cir. I don't see any code statement that states it must have a single receptacle. 210.21(B) states that a single recep, installed on an individual branch cir must be rated no less then the amp rating of the circuit. 

Look at i5t this way. If I supply a motor with an individual circuit and I have a jb then someone could add to that cir. also. Sure it is easier with a recep. but a recep. under the tub is not likely to have anything else plugged in. 

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> -680.73 is talking about the electrical equipment of the tub.-
> 
> Correct,so the cord supplying the motor is part of that equipment.


 Yes the plug is part of the equipment. The recep. is not and 680.71 states it must be readily accessible. I don't know what the argument is here. It says what it says and if you get it past with a gfci under the tub then go for it. IMO, it is often not acceptable.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Look at i5t this way. If I supply a motor with an individual circuit and I have a jb then someone could add to that cir. also. Sure it is easier with a recep. but a recep. under the tub is not likely to have anything else plugged in.
> 
> I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this.


Yes someone could add to the circuit, but by doing so the person would be modifying the individual circuit into a general purpose circuit.
I agree we will have to agree to disagree


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> I agree we will have to agree to disagree


I am in agreement with the fact that you agree that you will have to agree to agree to disagree.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Yes the plug is part of the equipment. The recep. is not and 680.71 states it must be readily accessible. I don't know what the argument is here. It says what it says and if you get it past with a gfci under the tub then go for it. IMO, it is often not acceptable.



NEC 2011 

"680.73 Accesibility.Hydromassage bathtub electrical equipment shall be accessible without damaging the building structure or building finish.
Where the hydromassage bathtub is cord-and plug-connected with the supply receptacle accessible only through a service access opening,the receptacle shall be installed so that its face is within direct view and not more than 300mm(1ft) of the opening."

I interpret this to supersede 680.71. Due the fact that it clearly states Cord-and plug- connected hydro-bathtubs.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I have to go with Dennis on this one.

680.71 Tells us how to protect the tub -it tells us that the tub must be protected by a readily accessible GFCI.
680.73 tells us that the equipment must accessible - It Tells us that the tub equipment and if the tub is cord and plug connected, The Receptacle must be accessible through an access panel.

680.71 Tells us 2 things
The tub must be GFCI protected AND the GFCI device MUST be readily accessible.

680.73 tells us that the equipment for the tub must be accessible via an accesses panel. It also tells us that IF the tub is cord connected the receptacle must face the access panel and it must be accessible via an access panel as well. There is nothing that modifys 680.71 or allows us to put the GFCI device under the tub behind the access panel. 

This entire issue will be mute when the code makes it mandatory that ALL GFCI devices must be readily accessible. It is coming !


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

:thumbsup: so,no tools needed it is ok underneath.
I may be reading too much into it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> This entire issue will be mute when the code makes it mandatory that ALL GFCI devices must be readily accessible. It is coming !



It's here



2011 NEC said:


> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
> Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
> shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
> ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
> readily accessible location.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

First a dead front GFCI must be used, a standard GFCI receptacle is not rated for motor loads. 
Second, I will always install a dead front gfci like Dennis does and install a receptacle in the tub compartment instead of a GFCI receptacle.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> ....., a standard GFCI receptacle is not rated for motor loads..........



Since when? :blink:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Since when? :blink:


Read the specs on a standard GFCI. 
A faceless is rated for motor loads.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Since when? :blink:


Read the instructions to a GFCI rec and read the instructions for a faceless and it will say rated for motor loads, I believe it's a 1/2hp or 1hp.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Read the instructions to a GFCI rec and read the instructions for a faceless and it will say rated for motor loads, I believe it's a 1/2hp or 1hp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Some GFCI ARE NOT MOTOR RATED. SPEC GRADE ARE.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Read the instructions to a GFCI rec and read the instructions for a faceless and it will say rated for motor loads, I believe it's a 1/2hp or 1hp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Where do u install the faceless gfi? Receptacle height next to the tub, or switch next to the bathroom switches?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Where do u install the faceless gfi? Receptacle height next to the tub, or switch next to the bathroom switches?


In a 1900 box with a raised cover, single rec GFCI combo cover. In motor accessible compartment. Sometimes at rec wall height.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Where do u install the faceless gfi? Receptacle height next to the tub, or switch next to the bathroom switches?


I install it over the switches for the bathroom. Sometimes I will hide it in a toilet room if it is close enough.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> First a dead front GFCI must be used, a standard GFCI receptacle is not rated for motor loads.
> Second, I will always install a dead front gfci like Dennis does and install a receptacle in the tub compartment instead of a GFCI receptacle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Salvatoreg02 Quote:
In a 1900 box with a raised cover, single rec GFCI combo cover. In motor accessible compartment. Sometimes at rec wall height.

Now I am confused.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> ... a standard GFCI receptacle is not rated for motor loads. ........





Salvatoreg02 said:


> Read the specs on a standard GFCI.
> A faceless is rated for motor loads..........





Salvatoreg02 said:


> Some GFCI ARE NOT MOTOR RATED. SPEC GRADE ARE........





Salvatoreg02 said:


> Read the instructions to a GFCI rec and read the instructions for a faceless and it will say rated for motor loads, I believe it's a 1/2hp or 1hp...........



[Iphone Spam/Crap deleted]

Wait.....what?!?!?! :001_huh:


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I have installed switches for whirlpool tubs from what I remember it was mostly a builder thing. Though I have also put in timers for them also for some clients. 
Now here's one to blow your mind who grounds the motors correctly at install? 
Think it over and then reply.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sparky J said:


> Now here's one to blow your mind who grounds the motors correctly at install?
> Think it over and then reply.


 Are you talking grounding or bonding? Most tubs are not plumbed with an entire ,metal system so the bonding is not necessary unless it is required by installation manuals. I have never had to install the bonding since most systems are not metallic


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Are you talking grounding or bonding? Most tubs are not plumbed with an entire ,metal system so the bonding is not necessary unless it is required by installation manuals. I have never had to install the bonding since most systems are not metallic


Also most tubs nowadays are of the insulated motor type.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> [Iphone Spam/Crap deleted]
> 
> Wait.....what?!?!?! :001_huh:


Are you doubtful or being sarcastic. I can never tell with you. I installed a GFCI a few yrs back and an inspector asked me is it motor rated. Sure enough it wasn't. So, he told me faceless GFCI are motor rated and specify " can be used with spas, etc, etc. 

So, since then I stopped using them for this type of application. Now, I haven't checked the specs recently on GFCI rec so its possible the specs could have changed.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Are you doubtful or being sarcastic. I can never tell with you. ........


I'm flat-out confused. You're saying two things..... and quoting yourself.

Sent from MyFingers via CherryBomb.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I installed a GFCI a few yrs back and an inspector asked me is it motor rated. Sure enough it wasn't. So, he told me faceless GFCI are motor rated and specify " can be used with spas, etc, etc.


I agree. The dead fronts are motor rated and a standard gfci might not be compliant for other reasons. I guess that same reason is why technically a duplex under the tub may not be compliant. Depends on the amp. of the hydromassage..


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Dennis: The NEC & (usually) the manufactures instructions call for bonding the hydro massage motor.

It doesn't say "Bond the motor to the copper water pipes" - it says "bond the motor". I read that as bonding the motor to the panel ground/neutral. Sure, in the past it was easy and convenient to just bond it to the water pipe. But since the plastic came out everybody just ignores the bonding requirement because a) it's harder and b) nobody enforces it.

People say "Oh, they are double insulated" or whatever - but the instructions and the NEC call for bonding them anyway. Plus, they usually have a landing lug, which just cries out for bonding to something.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> In a 1900 box with a raised cover, single rec GFCI combo cover. In motor accessible compartment. Sometimes at rec wall height.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


If that "motor accessible compartment" requires a tool to open it then you can not place a GFCI device in it.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

kbatku said:


> Dennis: The NEC & (usually) the manufactures instructions call for bonding the hydro massage motor.
> 
> It doesn't say "Bond the motor to the copper water pipes" - it says "bond the motor". I read that as bonding the motor to the panel ground/neutral. Sure, in the past it was easy and convenient to just bond it to the water pipe. But since the plastic came out everybody just ignores the bonding requirement because a) it's harder and b) nobody enforces it.
> 
> People say "Oh, they are double insulated" or whatever - but the instructions and the NEC call for bonding them anyway. Plus, they usually have a landing lug, which just cries out for bonding to something.


Below is a copy of Article 680.74 which covers bonding of the hydromassage tub. Underlining is by me and not the code. The key word in the first sentence is "systems". The copper pipe stubs from the faucet are not metal piping system.
Next is the misconception that this bond ( if required) ties into the electrical system's ground. Think of this bond the same a the equipotential pool bond. It just puts everything on the same plane.


680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be
bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated,
covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding
jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating
pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding
jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated
circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid
copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential
bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not
be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard,
service equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or
larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be long enough to
terminate on a replacement non-double-insulated pump motor
and shall be terminated to the equipment grounding conductor
of the branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated
circulating pump motor is used.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Dennis: The NEC & (usually) the manufactures instructions call for bonding the hydro massage motor.
> 
> It doesn't say "Bond the motor to the copper water pipes" - it says "bond the motor".



Read it more closely, If the water pipe is not ALL metal then you don't need to bond to it. The circulation of the water is always in plastic pipe so that does not apply. The motor is grounded thru the egc and that is usually all that is necessary. I admit there are some units that call for bonding back to the panel even though the NEC specifically states it is not necessary, as pointer out by manchestersparky



> 680.74 Bonding.* All metal piping systems *and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

manchestersparky said:


> If that "motor accessible compartment" requires a tool to open it then you can not place a GFCI device in it.


Most of these covers u can pull off with your hands.

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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Most of these covers u can pull off with your hands.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Sal by code you may be compliant but my understanding is that the gfci was to be accessible so that a homewoner could regularly test the gfci. Now we all know that most will not but I think that was the idea as well as the hassle for an individual to remove the panel and look for the gfci to reset it.


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