# Got laid off for installing according to the NEC



## william1978

Maybe that was a good thing to get laid off from a company that is willing to cut corners just because he screwed up on his bid. You need to find a company that wants to do it right.


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## paul d.

jay47544 said:


> Hey, get this, I got laid off the other day cause I was told to not install a ground and ground pig tails, and I installed them anyway! LOL! Appernently my former employer screwed the bid, and was trying to find any way he could to cut corners! And I was told that he needed to have some one do what he said to do wehter it was right or wrong!


 theres got to be more to this story. dont sound right to me. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky

I don't miss being an employee, but if I ever had to go back and apply for an 8-5 job, I'd look the person right in the eye and ask, "Are you going to fire me for doing it the way you told me to, or are you going to fire me for doing it the way I know it should be done?"


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## Dennis Alwon

480sparky said:


> "Are you going to *fire me *for doing it the way you told me to, or are you going to *fire me* for doing it the way I know it should be done?"



Sounds like either way you lose. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

Dennis Alwon said:


> Sounds like either way you lose. :laughing:


And both have happened.


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## manchestersparky

Clarify what it was you put ground tails in for, Switches ? Receptacles?
surface mounted in 4" square with raised covers? Flush mounted?

Yes it can make a difference !


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## william1978

manchestersparky said:


> Clarify what it was you put ground tails in for, Switches ? Receptacles?
> surface mounted in 4" square with raised covers? Flush mounted?
> 
> Yes it can make a difference !


Plastic nail up boxs.:whistling2:


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## manchestersparky

You were in the right then.

the reason I asked is there are times when one would not need to install ground tails- per the code

If he is that way - I wouldn't want to work for him any way


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## william1978

manchestersparky said:


> You were in the right then.
> 
> the reason I asked is there are times when one would not need to install ground tails- per the code
> 
> If he is that way - I wouldn't want to work for him any way


 You got that right.:thumbsup:


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## oldman

If I priced the job to be installed A,B,C,D. And tell you, the installer to install it A,B,C,D. And you decide you know better and install it W, X,Y,Z and cost me time and money, then we have a problem. 

Maybe I know an exception you don't. Maybe I know its all coming out in 6 months. Maybe I know what the inspector will, and will not, break chops on. 

But at the end of the day, the employee will make his rate regardless of whether he makes, or loses, the company money on that job. 

Do it my way, and lose money, my fault. Do it your way and lose money, wtf?


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## jay47544

here in my neck of the woods you can lose your license if you knowingly install some thing wrong! I have worked too hard for it and not going to lose it just because of some one else


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## william1978

What exactly did you do to get fired?


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## oldman

jay47544 said:


> here in my neck of the woods you can lose your license if you knowingly install some thing wrong! I have worked too hard for it and not going to lose it just because of some one else


In my neck of the woods, only the contractors license is on the line. Employee has no risk.


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## william1978

oldman said:


> In my neck of the woods, only the contractors license is on the line. Employee has no risk.


 It would be the same here.


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## jay47544

yep, was more than just that, he was used to doing shut downs where he did not have a permit, or inspections, while using people with out a license. I am talking about NO GROUNDS what so ever, no green, the ground was the pipe! And strapping not according to code! wire size not correct. The list goes on and on, but basically every day got in an argument over what was right and wrong.


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## william1978

You used to work for a HACK!!!!!


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## william1978

jay47544 said:


> yep, was more than just that, he was used to doing shut downs where he did not have a permit, or inspections,


 Just because it would be a shutdown doesn't mean he didn't need a permit or inspections. This guy should be turned into the state.


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## oldman

You guys do realize that some conduit is code compliant grounding - meanin no gree required. Just saying.


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## jay47544

Emt?


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## 480sparky

oldman said:


> You guys do realize that some conduit is code compliant grounding - meanin no gree required. Just saying.


But you still need to pigtail a ground.


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## oldman

480sparky said:


> But you still need to pigtail a ground.


Self grounding receptacles on a flush box? I agree on raised covers. 

And I believe EMT can be used as a ground. 

Make one think clear, I am not defending Peter D-like work. I've just interviewed enough "journeymen" over the years to know that qualified ones are few and far between. Despite what they believe, and their resumes say. So I'm a little jaded these days.


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## william1978

jay47544 said:


> Emt?


 The code book doesn't require a ground wire in Emt take a look at I think its 250.118 if my memory is correct.


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## william1978

oldman said:


> And I believe EMT can be used as a ground.


 Yes per 250.118.


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## BryanMD

Yet another example of the farce we all operate under when we refer to a "national" code and when we have 50+ standards of licensing associated to the work.

As an employer, I would appreciate a helpful and well intentioned look out from an employee that something I asked him to do was contrary to what he believed to be the code or other good practice... even if it was just something he beieved to be a code issue because "we always did it this way..."

But bottom line? If after being told that I wanted him to do X and he insisted on doing Y... he'd be getting his final paycheck that same day. 

Right, wrong or purple... the boss is the boss. 
If you can't accept that then also accept that this won't be the last time you'll get fired.


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## william1978

BryanMD said:


> Right, wrong or purple... the boss is the boss.
> If you can't accept that then also accept that this won't be the last time you'll get fired.


 Or become your own boss.:whistling2: And even then you would have to answer to your better half.:laughing:


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## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> Or become your own boss.:whistling2: And even then you would have to answer to your better half.:laughing:


Yes to the former. No to the latter.


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## jay47544

yep you are correct, think I will become the boss that way I know it will be installed correctly


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## fraydo

There's always more to the story. If you're arguing the finr points of the code with your boss then I think the boss has the upper hand. If your arguing clear cut legal against illegal, I would rather get fired than do something illegal. Besides in my neck of the woods if a lawsuit arises the lawyers go after anyone they can.


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## 480sparky

jay47544 said:


> yep you are correct, think I will become the boss that way I know it will be installed correctly


What is totally bizzare is I am doing things today the exact same way I did back when I worked for 'the man' (Code changes notwithstanding), and I don't have anyone... *no one*... not a single person.... bîtching and moaning about the quality my work.

By eliminating the several layers of people between me and the customer (foreman, superviser, manager, owner, GC, etc), things seem to run a whooooooole lot smoother.


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## william1978

480sparky said:


> Yes to the former. No to the latter.


 :thumbup:


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## BryanMD

fraydo said:


> There's always more to the story. If you're arguing the finr points of the code with your boss then I think the boss has the upper hand. If your arguing clear cut legal against illegal, I would rather get fired than do something illegal. Besides in my neck of the woods if a lawsuit arises the lawyers go after anyone they can.


I'll grant that the legalities might vary in Texas... but I seriously doubt an employee following a direct order has any sort of culpability.

But getting down to brass tacks... would you be willing to quit (or tell the boss he'll have to fire you) rather than do something you believe (or even are certain) is wrong? 

I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


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## william1978

jay47544 said:


> yep you are correct, think I will become the boss that way I know it will be installed correctly


 Does this mean your going to pull grounds in metal conduit?


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## william1978

BryanMD said:


> I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


 Been there, done that and got a T shirt.:whistling2:


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## oldman

No, it means he's gonna learn real quick how much it costs to do things. I'd love to hear back from him in a year or two.


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## fraydo

BryanMD said:


> I'll grant that the legalities might vary in Texas... but I seriously doubt an employee following a direct order has any sort of culpability.
> 
> But getting down to brass tacks... would you be willing to quit (or tell the boss he'll have to fire you) rather than do something you believe (or even are certain) is wrong?
> 
> I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


You're right about the culpability issue, but that may get resolved after you've been served. That means unnecessary legal expenses.

As for the brass tacks...i see your point. I've never been in a situation with a major conflict of conscience but have I've both left a co. before B/C i stick to my guns and I have stayed on and swallowed my pride


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## william1978

fraydo said:


> and I have stayed on and swallowed my pride


 Been there before. There has been some employers that I have worked for that I would have liked to tell them to F off, but I had a family to feed so I would have to bite my tongue because I have others counting on me.


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## RePhase277

We have all probably fudged the code one way or another. I know I have, especially to make something more right, than not right at all. For example, I was sent to a job 100 miles from anywhere to run a circuit for a ventilation fan in a chicken house. The boss insisted I take all the partial rolls of wire we had. Well guess what? I barely had enough #8 for the circuit, but all the rolls of #10 combined wouldn't make it for the ground. The boss said: "Don't worry about it, it's just a fan up high, don't worry about the ground." Well, I pulled a #12 ground instead. I could have said "no way man" and quit, but I fudged and made it more safe that not.

As opposed to the time the same guy had me check a problem where a 3-way wasn't working in a romex office job. Turns out the rough crew used a 12-2 between the 3-ways instead of 3-wire. I called in and said I'd be there running a 3-wire between the switches. He said "no, just rewire it and use the ground as the other traveler". This time we got into a good argument where he told me to either do it or don't bother coming back. So I left, and dropped his service van at the shop and got a ride home. Three days later he called and begged me to come back to work.:laughing:


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## Mr. Sparkle

I worked for a douche when I was younger that would always cut corners and blame his workers if the GC's or inspectors caught him. He would do this right in front of us too......I was young and did not have the knowledge or gusto to call him out on it......but I am enjoying hearing that his company has been on a steady slide downhill for the last 5 or so years......what comes around goes around.......the walls have ears. :thumbup:


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## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> What is totally bizzare is I am doing things today the exact same way I did back when I worked for 'the man' (Code changes notwithstanding), and I don't have anyone... *no one*... not a single person.... bîtching and moaning about the quality my work.
> 
> By eliminating the several layers of people between me and the customer (foreman, superviser, manager, owner, GC, etc), things seem to run a whooooooole lot smoother.


Hell yeah. There's a few good GC's out there but you're right, working directly for the person footing the bill is the way to go. :thumbsup:


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## leland

BryanMD said:


> I'll grant that the legalities might vary in Texas... but I seriously doubt an employee following a direct order has any sort of culpability.
> 
> But getting down to brass tacks... would you be willing to quit (or tell the boss he'll have to fire you) rather than do something you believe (or even are certain) is wrong?
> 
> I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


In Mass. this is clearly spelled out. Just make sure you have proof come 'judgment day' (court):thumbsup:


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## oldman

Magnettica said:


> Hell yeah. There's a few good GC's out there but you're right, working directly for the person footing the bill is the way to go. :thumbsup:


it is if you have the right temperment...some guys don't...

one thing about working directly for the end use...you better be able to sell...

most guys work for GCs because they only know how to sell on price, so they let the GC's find the work and sell it to the customers...

there are many guys out there who would starve within a week if they had to generate their own projects and sell themselves...


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## prldrp1

here in Chicago the wireman out in the field 9 ( or union steward)is responsible to install as per code, if you don't, the contractor and the union can make you go back and do it the right way at YOUR cost (ex... without pay), and if the contractor tells you to install against code and you follow that order and someone gets hurt, your BOTH can be sued and held liable


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## BDB

prldrp1 said:


> if you don't, the contractor and the union can make you go back and do it the right way at YOUR cost (ex... without pay)



Have always heard this, BUT I have never seen it enforced by the hall


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## prldrp1

BDB said:


> Have always heard this, BUT I have never seen it enforced by the hall


 
BDB...its stated right in our bylaws and yes...in my 37 years in the trade I have seen it only once enforced, the guy was the journey man in charge of a two man job, and he really f'd it up, he spent two saturdays on his time fixing it


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## BDB

prldrp1 said:


> journey man in charge of a two man job, and he really f'd it up, he spent two saturdays on his time fixing it


Glad he had to fix it, good to see them honor the by laws. It is in the by-laws here as well, but try and get someone to actually do it and they will just drag up.


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## brian john

I have been told to do stuff improperly and I did it per the NEC, I was reamed and I pulled out the book and showed my sustantation for my work.

ALWAYS KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT. It appears that the OP may not be 100% up on the NEC just from the statement he made about EMT (barring any local rules).

Me personally it is pride of ALWAYS doing the job properly, I'd either do it per the NEC or walk. But as I stated I'd read the NEC over 5 times to know I was right and then call someone with more knowledge than me like 480, Marc or one of the other NEC experts here.


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## paul d.

as a hourly paid, grunt construction type electrician, i rarely see any code issues. i just do what the boss says. if i see anything thats dont seem right , i let him know. have'nt picked up the NEC in years.


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## brian john

paul d. said:


> as a hourly paid, grunt construction type electrician, i rarely see any code issues. i just do what the boss says. if i see anything thats dont seem right , i let him know. have'nt picked up the NEC in years.


Read the book and aspire to be more than a grunt.


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## prldrp1

paul d. said:


> as a hourly paid, grunt construction type electrician, i rarely see any code issues. i just do what the boss says. if i see anything thats dont seem right , i let him know. have'nt picked up the NEC in years.


don't you get tired of working like a zombie????....don't you want the challenge of having to think alittle bit on the job?...having some input? Maybe helping the boss by taking the print for an area and look it over and in a nice way, tell him you have that area or job covered? I bet he will appreciate it


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## 480sparky

paul d. said:


> as a hourly paid, grunt construction type electrician, i rarely see any code issues. i just do what the boss says. if i see anything thats dont seem right , i let him know. have'nt picked up the NEC in years.





prldrp1 said:


> don't you get tired of working like a zombie????.......


Zombie is right!







I can see his next performance review: "Lacks motivation. Does not aspire to learn. No future with this company."


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## paul d.

brian john said:


> Read the book and aspire to be more than a grunt.


 well, i'm 55 y.o. they usually give me 3-5 guys to do my grunt work. i'm happy with it. BUT i would advise these younger guys to learn more code, controls, AND get licence. do as i say, not as i do.


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## prldrp1

paul d. said:


> well, i'm 55 y.o. they usually give me 3-5 guys to do my grunt work. i'm happy with it. BUT i would advise these younger guys to learn more code, controls, AND get licence. do as i say, not as i do.


 
thats right paul....I am 56, there are certain jobs I won't even try to do anymore......4" in a ditch etc... but I feel its my job to also teach these young ones the RIGHT way and SMART way to do things, boss may not like me taking a few extra min. to show the *kid* whats up......but oh well, but I make up for that by helping the boss in other areas so he doesn't have be 5 places at one time


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## drsparky

My motto is "you can carry a shove or carry a clipboard" its you choice.


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## paul d.

480sparky said:


> Zombie is right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see his next performance review: "Lacks motivation. Does not aspire to learn. No future with this company."


 been with same co. for 15 yrs. same people for nearly 25 yrs. :thumbup:


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## BryanMD

drsparky said:


> My motto is "you can carry a shove or carry a clipboard" its you choice.


I'd rather carry a fly rod.


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## drsparky

BryanMD said:


> I'd rather carry a fly rod.


That is a beautiful rod, who is the maker? What brand is the reel?


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## BryanMD

drsparky said:


> That is a beautiful rod, who is the maker? What brand is the reel?


Orvis. Trout Bum. Matched set.


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## drsparky

Got to get one of them.


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## George Stolz

oldman said:


> You guys do realize that some conduit is code compliant grounding - meanin no gree required. Just saying.





jay47544 said:


> Emt?


These are the moments that make foruming all the more worth while.


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## McClary’s Electrical

He's not talking about emt,,,,he said plastic nail up boxes. Was this on the rough-in???,,,,,,,,,maybe he wanted to do it on the trimout! You should have clarified with him. I personally do THE BARE MINIMUM on a rough-in. Simply because I've done so many that might not trim out for YEARS. And you MAY NOT get the trim out at all,,,,,,,so if that's the case,,,,you deserve to be fired for directly disobeying orders.


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## George Stolz

mcclary's electrical said:


> He's not talking about emt,,,,he said plastic nail up boxes.


I don't think I saw the OP mention plastic boxes in this thread.



> jay47544 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, get this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william1978 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plastic nail up boxs.:whistling2:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## active1

william1978 said:


> Yes per 250.118.


Also for EMT 358.60:
EMT shall be permitted as EG

That's it. 
We need to send in a code change proposal. 
All raceways shall have an EG. 
That way sadly 90% of electricians will be correct in their thinking without opening the book.

Your lucky you were laid off with unemployment and not fired. Laid off means there's no work / or the job was eliminated. Could it have been more that the company was going to lay off a person and you were the winner because....? Some EC's will try to keep a person working even if they are not needed at the time. Any bump in the road could put you out the door. 

You were clearly told to do a job a certain way.
Instead of raising a concern. You just did it the only way you thought was correct.


The NEC has some things we are permitted to do that may not feel correct or be done too often. That does not make it wrong to do.


Realize this:

Your boss may have more experiance and understand the code better than you.

Many EC's are fighting to stay alive.

Some EC's are working for little over cost to keep people working.

If you think something is not right with your instructions you should bring it up in a respectfull maner. Such as "Is that permitted by the NEC?". Or look it up yourself, site the code to your boss for clairification. This could have been a chance for you to learn a bit of code.

Some extra wire, pig tails, and labor may not seem like a lot if your not paying for it. Have you figured in your head what the extra materials would cost? How would you feel if someone took that money from you?

There can be cases where a EG can put you over on box or pipe fill makeing an actual code violation.

You can't argue code based on "that how we always do it".


http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/grounding/grounded.pdf
http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/TechTalk_EquipmentGrounding.pdf


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## Mastertorturer

Good post Active1. 

Although the OP needs to give specific parts and what the material is they are made of. Otherwise it's impossible to tell if the installation was code compliant.

I think everyone has had their boss violate a code or make you skimp on quality. It can make you extremely frustrated. Best to keep your mouth shut unless it's extremely important to you. 

*If you think the violation will directly endanger peoples lives then don't do it! *

If it will cause equipment to fail or degrade without harming anyone you should let it slide and make sure people know it wasn't your idea.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*EMT as Ground*



william1978 said:


> Yes per 250.118.


My inspector here won't let us use conduit for Ground unless we hire a 3rd party independat testing facility to confirm its 5 ohms or less (about $1,000)
so, basically means we can't use it as ground on residential


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## user4818

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> My inspector here won't let us use conduit for Ground unless we hire a 3rd party independat testing facility to confirm its 5 ohms or less (about $1,000)
> so, basically means we can't use it as ground on residential


Your inspector should be fired.


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## Rockyd

Active!,

Excellent post , and welcome to the "other" forum!


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*yeah*



Peter D said:


> Your inspector should be fired.


not much you can do though when a family member of his is head of the electrical inspection dept.:001_huh:


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## JayH

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> not much you can do though when a family member of his is head of the electrical inspection dept.:001_huh:


Ouch! More East Coast shakedown...oops...Ohio is mid-west.


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## user4818

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> not much you can do though when a family member of his is head of the electrical inspection dept.:001_huh:



So they get to make up rules as they go along?


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## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Ouch! More East Coast shakedown...oops...Ohio is mid-west.


HEY! Get you're shakedowns straight!:laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> My inspector here won't let us use conduit for Ground unless we hire a 3rd party independat testing facility to confirm its 5 ohms or less (about $1,000)
> so, basically means we can't use it as ground on residential


 
BS, where did he come up with the 5 ohms? is he just making that up??,,,,,I don't believe it. How could you even prove it? Your EMT would have to be isolated from EVERYTHING METAL in order to measure this. MSHA is the only one that requires the grond measurements, and they don't measure one certain path, they only measure between two points and ensure a ground path is there, no matter what it may be. I think this is a BS post.


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## NolaTigaBait

I doubt it's BS. The inspector is full of chit, but I believe what he is saying.


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## brian john

jay47544 said:


> Hey, get this, I got laid off the other day cause I was told to not install a ground and ground pig tails, and I installed them anyway! LOL! Appernently my former employer screwed the bid, and was trying to find any way he could to cut corners! And I was told that he needed to have some one do what he said to do wehter it was right or wrong!


First off were they required or did you feel they were necessary when the NEC and UL said the equipment you were installing did not require a bond jumper?

If you were in the right then I feel bad you lost your job, BUT who wants to work for a Snake Electric.


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## brian john

mcclary's electrical said:


> BS, where did he come up with the 5 ohms? is he just making that up??,,,,,I don't believe it. How could you even prove it? Your EMT would have to be isolated from EVERYTHING METAL in order to measure this. MSHA is the only one that requires the grond measurements, and they don't measure one certain path, they only measure between two points and ensure a ground path is there, no matter what it may be. I think this is a BS post.


All conduits runs properly installed are way less than 5 ohm.


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## McClary’s Electrical

brian john said:


> All conduits runs properly installed are way less than 5 ohm.


 
I agree, but can he make you prove it? I doubt it


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## NolaTigaBait

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, but can he make you prove it? I doubt it


It seems like one of those things that guys just don;t want to challenge even though the inspector is full of chit. If you cause trouble with the wrong person they will make your life hell.


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## nitro71

One thing you really should do and I've seriously regretted not doing this to a-holes I've worked for is go and talk to the owner or supervisor and tell them to go **** THEMSELVES! You'll feel so much better and have your dignity intact down the road.


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## wildleg

I call shenanigans TROLLS


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Ground*

I actually meant 25 ohms or less. I went to the big shot on him once and I paid for it for about 6 months of period red tags. It was just a kitchen remodel and whole house was a 2 wire system in conduit. I asked him if we could keep one, and that's what he said. I just ran another nm-b with a nice blue carlon box and removed that conduit. Wasn't worth the trouble again with this guy


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## JayH

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> I went to the big shot on him once and I paid for it for about 6 months of period red tags.


I love it when my Foreman come to me with stories like this.

That inspector is pissed at me blah, blah, blah.

Is it a code violation or not?

If it is, fix it.

If not, I'll have a talk with the inspector or his boss, but don't come to me complaining about something that is a violation.


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## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Red Tags*

This probably would make a good new topic but, after that incident he red tagged me for the following 

No PAR on light bulbs, a few staples off by 1" from Carlon Box, 1 screw missing in panel cover, 1 pt over in a deep nail on Carlon, etc...really small stuff


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## NolaTigaBait

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> This probably would make a good new topic but, after that incident he red tagged me for the following
> 
> No PAR on light bulbs, a few staples off by 1" from Carlon Box, 1 screw missing in panel cover, 1 pt over in a deep nail on Carlon, etc...really small stuff


Exactly. If you screw with these a holes then they screw with you for every little thing.


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## Magnettica

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> This probably would make a good new topic but, after that incident he red tagged me for the following
> 
> No PAR on light bulbs, a few staples off by 1" from Carlon Box, 1 screw missing in panel cover, 1 pt over in a deep nail on Carlon, etc...really small stuff


Codes are codes and EI's enforce those codes. Box fill and properly secured cables is something a professional electrician does right the first time. And that's coming from a guy who failed once for lack of antioxidant on an aluminum feeder termination.


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## rdr

BryanMD said:


> I'll grant that the legalities might vary in Texas... but I seriously doubt an employee following a direct order has any sort of culpability.
> 
> But getting down to brass tacks... would you be willing to quit (or tell the boss he'll have to fire you) rather than do something you believe (or even are certain) is wrong?
> 
> I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


No, not culpable per say but you can bet the farm it will be abundantly clear it wasn't my idea when the red tag comes, and that's happened more than once. You can't please all the people all the time just some of the people most of the time and some people you just can't reach at all.



480sparky said:


> I don't miss being an employee, but if I ever had to go back and apply for an 8-5 job, I'd look the person right in the eye and ask, "Are you going to fire me for doing it the way you told me to, or are you going to fire me for doing it the way I know it should be done?"


Fired is fired either way you go. Question is if you do it the way it should be done and he decides to get sideways with you are you gonna wait for the firing or do the walking on principle? Still the same result, just wondering...... :whistling2:


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## smeric28

BryanMD said:


> I'll grant that the legalities might vary in Texas... but I seriously doubt an employee following a direct order has any sort of culpability.
> 
> But getting down to brass tacks... would you be willing to quit (or tell the boss he'll have to fire you) rather than do something you believe (or even are certain) is wrong?
> 
> I doubt there is anyone reading this board who hasn't been in that position at some point. I know I have.


Ahhh, the wonders of incorporation in America... Not even your boss or the company president is responsible. unless they are grossly negligent.


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## ramsy

jay47544 said:


> ..strapping not according to code! wire size not correct. The list goes on and on, but basically every day got in an argument over what was right and wrong.


Young grasshopper must understand your place. Contractors are not required nor want to be benevolent kings, given to charity or unenforced rules. Employees cannot force contractors to follow code, much less buy shoring, PPE, or LOTO, since OSHA has no prosecuting budget and everyone knows it.

Its the inspector's job to catch contractors & owners who cheat, not expendable "at-will" employees. Tantrums about safety or code were usually fired for cause, and I wouldn't expected that to change anytime soon.

My commercial experience is defined by NECA & other contractors who made it their business to find shortcuts, for everything except the pet peeves of each inspector. The opportunity for shortcuts exist partly because inspection can fail multiple times, before increasing permit costs. 

Contractors all bid to code, and don't explain it to JW's plainly, just give you a tongue lashing the first time you act like a code wonk. The only people who ever caved to my code advice were my own customers. 

When employed by contractors, senior employees were a large part of the ignorance problem. I eventually learned they were accurately representing their masters wishes, although pressing safety & building-code issues found tolerance for my own compliance, if PPE was purchased out of my own pocket. :sneaky2:


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## RIVETER

*Laid off*



paul d. said:


> theres got to be more to this story. dont sound right to me. :whistling2:


 I kind of agree here with you Paul. But, there is money out there for whistle blowers...Maybe he should try that.


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## spdone

Exactly right Ramsy! One inspector will walk in and check for ground screws in one city, another inspector will not allow certain kinds of clips for mc support on metal studs. We ALWAYS have an idea of what our inspector will let us get away with in order to cut an expense! Most, however, have no problem (and all of them imo) telling you why they are right. Me pull out a code book? What the f for? The inspector will do it for me if I just ask!

The point is that some things are done certain ways at certain times for certain reasons. and although a boss is not obligated to answer your question, if you ask,"because I said so" sometimes is all you can ever expect.

I have,by the way, always viewed cutting corners as a way to save time and money as long as it does not compromise safety and usually means using a different kind material or taking a more direct route not something like "don't install a ground".


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