# The U.S. Government is playing favorites with T5 lamps



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Next July, many, many fluorescent lamps will be outlawed due to the new DOE ruing. 

Those who market T5s as something special will claim how they're more efficacious and such. 

So, here we have the government, imposing stiffer standards on T8s and T12s than supposedly "more" efficacious T5s. 

T8s and T12s have to meet 89 lm/W for most types, and 88 lm/W for daylight types. 

T5s only have to meet 86 and 81. 
T5s are held to lesser standards by 3lm/W for most types and daylight lamps get a freaking 7 lm/W break. 

This is bull , but its like the ethanol mandate crap. Some stakeholders of T5 system must have lobbied. 

T5s are rated on electronic ballasts, so they already get a boost in printed specs, yet they're held to even lower expectations. 
Why they're allowed to get away with 81 lm/W, who knows! That's about as bad as F40/CW from 40 years ago, that the government banned in 1995.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Man talk about obsessed.

Did a T5 salesman runoff with your wife or something?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Maybe the T5 contain less mercury, less toxic for disposal?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Man talk about obsessed.
> 
> Did a T5 salesman runoff with your wife or something?


If I new it was that easy I would have ordered T5s a long time ago.:jester:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Man talk about obsessed.
> 
> Did a T5 salesman runoff with your wife or something?


You'll probably care if the new law is something that affects YOU. This upcoming mandate bans a substantial amount of T8s and T12s produced today. Let's see how you react when the government outlaws just about everything consumable you use, or if NEC was to mandate upping the size of every wiring from current practices by next year in the name of reducing energy loss.




drsparky said:


> Maybe the T5 contain less mercury, less toxic for disposal?


I'm seeing 1.7mg in T8, 1.4mg in T5 for ALTO II. According to Illinois EPA, a mercury switch thermostat contains about 4 grams. So, each thermostat has the same amount of mercury as about 2,500 lamps. Since the large volume users are commercial users and its illegal in many states for them to throw lamps in trash anyways, mercury content isn't that important.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'll just use LED's . :laughing:


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

No the t5 salesman brought his wife back, and now he is really pissed.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Don't T5's on the market exceed those numbers already though? I thought--from memory--that they have higher lumens per watt than T8. Is the lower initial standard a way to encourage development in that area?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

stars13bars2 said:


> No the t5 salesman brought his wife back, and now he is really pissed.


 :laughing::laughing:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Don't T5's on the market exceed those numbers already though? I thought--from memory--*that they have higher lumens per watt than T8*. Is the lower initial standard a way to encourage development in that area?


If you look at published lumens, then yes, because the measurement standards aren't the same. It's like comparing miles per US gallon to miles per British gallon without explicit notation of the difference. 

All 4' fluorescent lamps gain about 10% output at >10KHz compared to 60Hz. 

A 3,100 lumen 32W lumen T8 lamp will provide 3,100 lumens at 29W on an electronic ballast. 

A 2,900 lumen 28W T5 lamp won't gain one bit, because the specs are already based on electronic ballast use. 

Of course, the lowered standards for T5s will encourage China made lamps with poorer efficacy to come in, that can be made cheaper than existing T5 lamps.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> If you look at published lumens, then yes, because the measurement standards aren't the same. It's like comparing miles per US gallon to miles per British gallon without explicit notation of the difference.
> 
> All 4' fluorescent lamps gain about 10% output at >10KHz compared to 60Hz.
> 
> ...


Off course there was another thread where it was shown you were at the least being untruthful about your statements or at best selectively picking and choosing the facts you presented.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Maybe it is only me but as an EC I really COULD NOT CARE LESS what type of fixtures I install. I install what is on the print and make money doing so.:thumbsup:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe it is only me but as an EC I really COULD NOT CARE LESS what type of fixtures I install. I install what is on the print and make money doing so.:thumbsup:


Then, why do you come to lighting design section of the forum to complain people are talking about lighting design? I don't go into your threads and complain you're talking about electrical contracting.

Some backhoe operator on your site dug into your wires. You dig into wrong threads. Not paying attention, unwilling to exercise care and could not care less where your stupid orange lines are. 

Do I see a commonality here?


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe it is only me but as an EC I really COULD NOT CARE LESS what type of fixtures I install. I install what is on the print and make money doing so.:thumbsup:


You are probably one of those guys that just breaks your mercury filled lamps and tosses them in the nearest trashcan. I suppose you toss PCB ballasts in the trash too. Are you aware of what that stuff does to our health--to our ground water supply? 

Do you care about your children or grandchildren's health? Are you one of those Americans that have no problem with the US government racking up tremendous amounts of debt and saddling future generations with it? Are you just one of those people that care nothing about anything except money? 

That's terrible. Shame on you. [/end sarcasm]

Energy efficiency in lighting is a big push. If you are an installing contractor, there is no reason to care about these things. However, if you are a DESIGNING contractor, it means everything. Let us have our geeky fun thanks.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Lighting Retro said:


> Energy efficiency in lighting is a big push. If you are an installing contractor, there is no reason to care about these things. However, if you are a DESIGNING contractor, it means everything. Let us have our geeky fun thanks.


You are 1000% correct.

But I will bust anyone's balls that have an agenda they will not admit.

It has been so obvious that 'Electric Light' is entirely biased that to me his posts are meaningless and the fact he has chosen not to tell us what his stake in this is says to me he is full of it.

I have asked him a number of times to be up front with us and he has chosen to ignore that request. Well that is his right, just wish he could show us a bit more respect. He would have gotten more respect from me if he had not started out trying to act neutral.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Lighting Retro said:


> Energy efficiency in lighting is a big push.


To an extent anyways. Sometimes, I sigh at wasting public money, but installing contractors aren't complaining. State of Washington has some of the lowest electricity prices in nation, yet one of the most strict energy codes. 

One thing I heard was dimming lighting system don't cost much more than a non-dimming system... maybe not for the customer if the state has ludicrous energy codes and willing to spend tax payers' money to cover the difference.

Of course, mandating adaptation of new technology or outlawing existing technology by using the law creates a market for merit-less "upgrades". 

At 6-8 cents/kWh, these stupid automated dimming system would NEVER pay itself off. 

These days, the talk revolves around what incentives can be collected, rather than $$$ that can be saved through actual savings. Some of the things in ANSI/IES/ASHRAE/etc 189.1 simply do not consider money and I feel that they only make sense in a battery powered house with a very limited demand capacity. 

I have a 100W incandescent on a motion detector in the laundry room and I think its great. The new law will put a blanket ban on general light bulb. Even if tax payers paid for the full upgrade, cutting the power use of something that uses 75 cents a year to 10 cents a year is totally pointless. I doubt the installing contractors will complain about the idea of such a law though.




Bob Badger said:


> I have asked him a number of times to be up front with *us* and he has chosen to ignore that request. Well that is his right, just wish he could show *us* a bit more respect. He would have gotten more respect from * me *if he had not started out trying to act neutral.


me != us. If my posts are meaningless to you, you're wasting your own time by interacting with them.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> You are 1000% correct.
> 
> But I will bust anyone's balls that have an agenda they will not admit.
> 
> ...


Electric Light has given me very useful information. He has gone out of his way to help me. He is not getting paid to come here and post messages. He isn't promoting any product he is selling. Why can't you just move on to another thread if you want to be counter productive on this one?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Skipp said:


> Why can't you just move on to another thread if you want to be counter productive on this one?


Why don't you ignore my posts?


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)




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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

OK here is an olive branch that should warm Electric Light's element. :laughing:

My attic, cellar, garage and some of my kitchen is equipped with T-8s. :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Then, why do you come to lighting design section of the forum to complain people are talking about lighting design? I don't go into your threads and complain you're talking about electrical contracting.
> 
> Some backhoe operator on your site dug into your wires. You dig into wrong threads. Not paying attention, unwilling to exercise care and could not care less where your stupid orange lines are.
> 
> Do I see a commonality here?


Most people on this forum check "New Posts" and do not look at the topics.
You will find people commenting on the "Lighting Design" or "Union Topics" just to put their 2 cents worth of ignorance. 
If you show up with an opinion that is not the same as "someone" around here, be prepared for a deep dark doo doo party.

If you want to claim to be an expert here, proof read every word and provide footnotes. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Then, why do you come to lighting design section of the forum to complain people are talking about lighting design?


I have as much 'right' to question a post as you have a 'right' to post it.



> I don't go into your threads and complain you're talking about electrical contracting.


But you could and I invite you to. 



> Some backhoe operator on your site dug into your wires. You dig into wrong threads. Not paying attention, unwilling to exercise care and could not care less where your stupid orange lines are.


I know exactly what forums I am posting to.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Most people on this forum check "New Posts" and do not look at the topics.
> You will find people commenting on the "Lighting Design" or "Union Topics" just to put their 2 cents worth of ignorance.
> If you show up with an opinion that is not the same as "someone" around here, be prepared for a deep dark doo doo party.
> 
> If you want to claim to be an expert here, proof read every word and provide footnotes. :thumbsup:



I know John, we should only make posts that kiss ass and you can be the only one disagreeing.


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## Skipp (May 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Why don't you ignore my posts?


 Fair enough, I am not here to debate you. I rather get along with my fellow electricans.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Most people on this forum check "New Posts" and do not look at the topics.
> You will find people commenting on the "Lighting Design" or "Union Topics" just to put their 2 cents worth of ignorance.
> If you show up with an opinion that is not the same as "someone" around here, be prepared for a deep dark doo doo party.
> 
> If you want to claim to be an expert here, proof read every word and provide footnotes. :thumbsup:


 

2 cents worth of ignorance? I thought you union guys made a lot more than that!


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