# apprentice on his or her own?



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

Ontario guys do you leave your apprentice on his or her own to do non-energized work? Like running pipe, cleaning up, mounting equipment or panels. I know about the apprentice must work supervised but I get pulled away for service almost everyday and I can't always take him. Anyone know what the labor laws states. I'm doing the research on it now.
I was told today that a wireman was charged criminally for the death of his helper who fell off a roof while he was away. I haven't found this article yet but I'm looking. It has me rethinking my policies.


----------



## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

If you just mean 'working without the journeyman there' then the answer is all the time. If you mean 'working alone with nobody else there' then the answer is virtually never. I'm the only one who works alone. It's against company policy, and against MOL rules, etc.


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

thanks I have had a 5th year for the last bit I kind of treated him differnt but now I have a 1st year with a construction back ground (laborer ) and he knows nothing of electrical but can drill and dig and sweep know what I mean. The MOL always states "work must be completed by a competent person I beleive him competent would they by my definition?


----------



## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

sparky105 said:


> thanks I have had a 5th year for the last bit I kind of treated him differnt but now I have a 1st year with a construction back ground (laborer ) and he knows nothing of electrical but can drill and dig and sweep know what I mean. The MOL always states "work must be completed by a competent person I beleive him competent would they by my definition?



I've run into MOL inspectors who were a long long way from reasonable about certain issues. Every inspector has their favourite 'dead horse' to beat on. If you get the wrong inspector you could be screwed, but the bottom line is that the definition of 'competent' doesn't require any kind of licensing. If you believe in good faith that he is competent to do the task that you are assigning him then you should be fine. If you've observed him doing the task a few times before sending him solo that would be good. Never let him work completely alone... it's just not worth it. The penalties can be severe. I'll work alone while crawling through steel trusses 45 feet up above a concrete floor littered with nasty equipment, but having a flunkie sweeping up alone... nope. Can't risk it.
Mind you, the other person doesn't have to be someone who works for your company....


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

It's alright. So long as he isn't doing anything sketchy and you aren't four hours away.

If you run off to take a dump, do you bring the apprentice with you?


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

Mike in Canada said:


> I've run into MOL inspectors who were a long long way from reasonable about certain issues. Every inspector has their favourite 'dead horse' to beat on. If you get the wrong inspector you could be screwed, but the bottom line is that the definition of 'competent' doesn't require any kind of licensing. If you believe in good faith that he is competent to do the task that you are assigning him then you should be fine. If you've observed him doing the task a few times before sending him solo that would be good. Never let him work completely alone... it's just not worth it. The penalties can be severe. I'll work alone while crawling through steel trusses 45 feet up above a concrete floor littered with nasty equipment, but having a flunkie sweeping up alone... nope. Can't risk it.
> Mind you, the other person doesn't have to be someone who works for your company....


I hear that. I'm leaning on sending a memo to my customers stating do to increased work load I now have a helper working along side of me. Give them the new costs for the tech, apprentice and truck and let them decide if they can support the extra costs and take him with me to every job. I haven't had to deal with the MOL yet and I don't want to endanger anyone.


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

jza said:


> It's alright. So long as he isn't doing anything sketchy and you aren't four hours away.
> 
> If you run off to take a dump, do you bring the apprentice with you?


:no: No but the scenario that was told me about the kid falling off the roof also mentioned that this JM was just running for coffee. so now I am rethinking my decisions in this manner


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I'll bet that's a rumor.

http://www.canlii.org/en/index.php


----------



## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

My previous company threw me out there totally green to put in a 3phase 80a circuit for an large printing press. I was pretty scared about some aspects of that job. I learned alot but it's wrong to throw somebody out there and just tell them to do it. I wised up after that one and told him I'm not installing breakers or terminating. Some guys want to take advantage of a low pay rate and someone thats eager to learn.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hard to weigh in on this adequatly as it depends on the number of years in the program, the individual and the project at hand.

I know JWs I would not let screw in a light bulb.
I have worked with apprentices that can do quite a bit based on expierence and common sense.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

I think this issue depends on whether the work being performed is considered hazzardous, not so much de-energized.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> I think this issue depends on whether the work being performed is considered hazzardous, not so much de-energized.


 
Hazardous? You can get hurt in a porta potty

I know guys that have run a screw driver through their hand switching and pluging.

Dropped a running drill on their foot YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

brian john said:


> Hazardous? You can get hurt in a porta potty
> 
> I know guys that have run a screw driver through their hand switching and pluging.
> 
> Dropped a running drill on their foot YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.


Union guys? :jester:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Union guys? :jester:


Union, open shop, all groups have accidents.


As far as dangerous work goes NO ONE should do it alone. I feel anything questionable requires two men.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> As far as dangerous work goes NO ONE should do it alone. I feel anything questionable requires two men.


I agree, but when I was standing next to a building engineer who put his hand on a 50-year old boltswitch handle and was about to operate it, I said, "If you're going to open that, I'll be standing outside in the hallway". :yes:


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

AWKrueger said:


> My previous company threw me out there totally green to put in a 3phase 80a circuit for an large printing press. I was pretty scared about some aspects of that job. I learned alot but it's wrong to throw somebody out there and just tell them to do it. I wised up after that one and told him I'm not installing breakers or terminating. Some guys want to take advantage of a low pay rate and someone thats eager to learn.


It is totally illegal for you to work without a master or journey present in Michigan anyway and they know that. They can be fined and lose their license if they get caught.


----------



## AWKrueger (Aug 4, 2008)

AFOREMA1 said:


> It is totally illegal for you to work without a master or journey present in Michigan anyway and they know that. They can be fined and lose their license if they get caught.


Yea, luckily for me I dont work there anymore. The master license holder jumped ship and I got out while I could. I now work for a company where I feel I'm not asked to do anything unsafe, and my boss gives a sh*t about my safety.


----------

