# "My brother-in-law can change your panel."



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

White wire not reidentified for circuit #5.

Hot & Neutral conductors in cable feeding it are switched.

Using the tub as a neutral conductor for all the noodles in the bar at the bottom.

Paralleled neutral & ground feeding the panel.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow. He butchered that!


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

That's what happens when you pay someone in advance with beer


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wires on bottom left breaker might be too small for 30 amp.

Uncapped loose black wire in the bottom.

480...bottom neutral bar is bonded with #6 solid? Not sure if that is ok.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> .........480...bottom neutral bar is bonded with #6 solid? Not sure if that is ok.


Not for terminating neutrals on it.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

use of a homeline panel


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

I've said it many times before, as have others on this forum....it is amazing how much time, effort and money (the extra ground bars, etc.) that someone will spend to do it WRONG. 




ampman said:


> use of a homeline panel


Dude, that line is getting as old as the crap about Carlon Blue and SER. 

Homeline breakers have been PROVEN to have the EXACT same trip mechanisms as the vaunted QO line. (Minus the Visi-Trip indicators of course.)


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

mxslick said:


> I've said it many times before, as have others on this forum....it is amazing how much time, effort and money (the extra ground bars, etc.) that someone will spend to do it WRONG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's a joke son don't you get it


----------



## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I like the SER neutral and hot my personal favorite.


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

ampman said:


> it's a joke son don't you get it



Don't need lip from you sonny. :laughing::laughing:

Damn kids, get off my lawn! :wheelchair:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> I like the SER neutral and hot my personal favorite.


I just wonder if he found out the expensive way that he had them crossed.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Let me guess. The 200 amp breaker feeding this exploded when they turned it on?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

mxslick said:


> I've said it many times before, as have others on this forum....it is amazing how much time, effort and money (the extra ground bars, etc.) that someone will spend to do it WRONG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but you don't have to play thread the needle to get the wire into a Square D breaker.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I've seen worse. I'm curious what the other end of that ser looks like.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> White wire not reidentified for circuit #5.
> 
> Hot & Neutral conductors in cable feeding it are switched.
> 
> ...


*I don't see how the tub is being used for the neutral connections at the bottom since it has a bonding jumper up to the other grounding bar, and from that bar there is the main bonding jumper over to the neutral bar.
Although the main jumper may be too small.

I know the rule concerning not using the enclosure for the neutral, but I can't remember or find where it is. What article/section is it? 

* I don't see where the neutral and ground are paralleled. Not arguing it, just don't see it.


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> ...I don't see where the neutral and ground are paralleled. Not arguing it, just don't see it.


Look again:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> *I don't see how the tub is being used for the neutral connections at the bottom since it has a bonding jumper up to the other grounding bar, and from that bar there is the main bonding jumper over to the neutral bar.
> Although the main jumper may be too small.
> 
> I know the rule concerning not using the enclosure for the neutral, but I can't remember or find where it is. What article/section is it?
> ...



The bar is bonded to the can, and the can is bonded to the neutral bar (albiet a home-made jumper). That creates a parallel path.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

:wallbash: Totally missed that the panel was a sub panel!:blush:

I think because it had a main breaker I didn't take into account that it had 4 wires coming in!

Makes it a moot point now, but I think I was right about the tub not being used for the neutral since they used bonding jumpers.

Still can't find that code article for some reason, HELP!


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> :wallbash: Totally missed that the panel was a sub panel!:blush:


No one has said that it is a subpanel. Either way it's still not correct though.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

8V71 said:


> No one has said that it is a subpanel. Either way it's still not correct though.


I would think it would be since it has 4 conductors feeding it.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Little-Lectric said:


> I would think it would be since it has 4 conductors feeding it.


I think that just shows how little the guy who wired it knows. Service neutral to hot bus, service hot to neutral bus, grounding wire at the ground bus and running to who knows where


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> No one has said that it is a subpanel. Either way it's still not correct though.



How many 1-ph. main panels do you feed with 4 wires?


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> How many 1-ph. main panels do you feed with 4 wires?


All of them.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> All of them.



Why ?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> All of them.


Do what???


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

bkmichael65 said:


> I think that just shows how little the guy who wired it knows. Service neutral to hot bus, service hot to neutral bus, grounding wire at the ground bus and running to who knows where





Little-Lectric said:


> I would think it would be since it has 4 conductors feeding it.


Without knowing more from the OP I'm just taking a guess from the guys work. Then I'm thinking how and why feed a sub with such large conductors. Yes, there are hack ways to do so but just a WAG from me on an internet forum.


----------



## boora2 (Jan 28, 2012)

Don't worry,it can all be fixed after the joint burns down,classic DIY f***up.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

8V71 said:


> Without knowing more from the OP I'm just taking a guess from the guys work. Then I'm thinking how and why feed a sub with such large conductors. Yes, there are hack ways to do so but just a WAG from me on an internet forum.



If you had a disconnect straight out of the meter, then fed the inside panel from it, you would then have a sub panel inside.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> ......Then I'm thinking how and why feed a sub with such large conductors.........



What difference does the conductor size have to do with main / sub panels? A subpanel can be 15 amps, or it can be 2500 amps.


----------



## CopperSlave (Feb 9, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Let me guess. The 200 amp breaker feeding this exploded when they turned it on?


Actually no. The installer had used the same set-up at each end. Although wrong, he was consistant.


----------



## oldblue (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't know about you guys but I'm impressed he bought a lug for the ground bar. Last half assed sub-panel I looked at had most the strands cut off the end of the ground so it would fit in the ground bar. Looks like your guys never heard of 15 amp breakers either.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CopperSlave said:


> Actually no. The installer had used the same set-up at each end. Although wrong, he was consistant.


Then it would have fried every 120 volt appliance in the house


----------



## CopperSlave (Feb 9, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Then it would have fried every 120 volt appliance in the house


No, what I mean is, he used the white as an ungrounded, and the black as the neutral....he had it the same, although wrong, at each end.


----------



## boora2 (Jan 28, 2012)

White as the active,black as the neutral,well it might have been wired by a drunk Aussie then.


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

If it is a service panel then there is no ground wire. Service entry cannot have branch wiring run through the main breaker section and a barrier must also be installed if this was in Canada.
Unidentify the white wire on the breaker. remove the 2 extra bonding jumpers as the real one should be in hte top right hand neutral buss. They should also be at least #6 for a 200 amp panel
The big connector/ bushing at the bottom is not sized for the cable(s) and what is the white cable or wire with the red wire nut for? Is that the ground? If so it should be green or bare.
No neutrals on bonding bars and only 1 neutral per terminal.

If it is a sub panel the neutrals are still wrong and there should not be any bonding jumpers but the branch wires may go past the main breaker.

Definitely lots of errors regardless of what side of the boarder this was done.


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Why ?


 around here its required


----------



## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Why ?


2 hots, 1 neutral, and a bonding wire = 4 wires. For a service add a ground wire too but the bond wire might be a raceway if pipe and wire except this is fed with a cable so the bond wire is in the cable.

What wire would you omit? How and why?


----------



## Ason (Oct 4, 2012)

Just curious, why the jumper between the ground bar and the neutral bar? What was he trying to accomplish with that?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ason said:


> Just curious, why the jumper between the ground bar and the neutral bar? What was he trying to accomplish with that?


 He's got neutrals landed on both bars, and you can't use the enclosure itself to carry neutral current. 200.2(B) But I'd be really surprised if the guy who installed this actually knew that. I think he just got lucky.


----------



## Ason (Oct 4, 2012)

Big John said:


> He's got neutrals landed on both bars, and you can't use the enclosure itself to carry neutral current. 200.2(B) But I'd be really surprised if the guy who installed this actually knew that. I think he just got lucky.


Yikes, didn't notice that on first glance. Thanks.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

mxslick said:


> *I've said it many times before, as have others on this forum....it is amazing how much time, effort and money (the extra ground bars, etc.) that someone will spend to do it WRONG*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing; but its a sad fact that even when done wrong like on here it still comes out cheaper price wise. And if it works then it must be right


----------



## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Take your black Sharpie and fill in the white line, then take your white Sharpie and put a line on the black!:thumbup:


----------



## SigmaEl (May 13, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Let me guess. The 200 amp breaker feeding this exploded when they turned it on?


Even worst... breaker will not explode,but outdoor el.meter will do during connection to aerial... some meters don't like shortage...


----------



## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Anyone notice the white wire is a line conductor and the black is the grounded?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> Anyone notice the white wire is a line conductor and the black is the grounded?


Did you read the responses?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Did you read the responses?


Why do you have to give everyone a hard time?


----------

