# Life expectancy of an electrical panel



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I looked for "official" information on that a few years back, and came up empty.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

How about romex????


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I looked for "official" information on that a few years back, and came up empty.



I saw 25 years but, that's what another ec website stated. I want undisputed facts.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

Is age the determining factor on when a panel needs to be changed? I mean do we change them because they are old or because something new to the electrical system requires it?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> Is age the determining factor on when a panel needs to be changed? I mean do we change them because they are old or because something new to the electrical system requires it?


Good point. That shouldn't be the only factor.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> Is age the determining factor on when a panel needs to be changed? I mean do we change them because they are old or because something new to the electrical system requires it?


Some of both, really. Insurance companies often, and regrettably, compel fuse box changeouts as a requirement for issuing the insurance.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Does anyone have any data on the average life expectancy of an electrical panel? I'm talking about a residential panel, indoors, not exposed to a harsh environment, not overloaded.


No data, but if hooked up properly in the first place... and loaded properly, it should last for a lot longer than you need to worry about.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I would say generally 25 years on a lot of stuff. We all know things last a lot longer but then again I have seen new construction lately that hasn't lasted one or two years.
Sad really.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

SHOPROCKET1 said:


> How about romex????


Romex should probably be on another thread, but to answer your question,
according to this in 2010:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/Research%20Foundation/Assessment_of_the_Ability_of_NM_Cable_to_Resist_Arc_Conditions.pdf
UL said it was working on a study that they were targeting to come
out this year, i.e. 2012.

If you scan the paper above, they basically say there really hasn't
been any substantive research about romex lifetimes.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

We have a continuing Ed instructor around here that tells us it is our fault FPE went out of business because we used the wrong breakers for the type of circuit...hypothetically if you walked into a house wired in the 1950s and the electrical system had not been modified and no equipment other than what was available at the time was installed. Would the electrical system ever need to be replaced????


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

rexowner said:


> Romex should probably be on another thread, but to answer your question,
> according to this in 2010:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/Re...lity_of_NM_Cable_to_Resist_Arc_Conditions.pdf
> UL said it was working on a study that they were targeting to come
> ...


 
Agree but thought we could kill two birds with one stone here.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Look at the original romex found in 40's homes: many I find, the insulation is still pliable; inside jboxes and outlets are another story. Modern romex should last just as long. 
Panels should be good for 50 years, depending on manufacturer.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Well on this site we've seen electrical panels from over 100 years ago still in fine shape. I think the key is the amount of hackery that happens to them.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

erics37 said:


> Well on this site we've seen electrical panels from over 100 years ago still in fine shape. I think the key is the amount of hackery that happens to them.


wellll.....manufacturing has much to do with it, too. There is some cr*p brand new I wouldn't install.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Well on this site we've seen electrical panels from over 100 years ago still in fine shape. I think the key is the amount of hackery that happens to them.



Great answer. :thumbsup:

Kind of like your vehicle. All depends what it is exposed to.:thumbsup:

Maintenance helps. Bottom line, what is it exposed to.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm an IEEE member now, so I'm sure they have some specific stuff on that. I'm not real good at navigating their site yet, but what I found so far for AC breakers operating at less than 635volts, is that they are spec'd to endure anywhere between 1100 and 10000 operating cycles. Maintenance intervals on serviceable types are much lower than the rated operating cycle count, however. It's doubtful that any molded case circuit breaker (other than those used for switch duty or motor starting duty) will ever see anywhere near that.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I'm an IEEE member now, so I'm sure they have some specific stuff on that. I'm not real good at navigating their site yet, but what I found so far for AC breakers operating at less than 635volts, is that they are spec'd to endure anywhere between 1100 and 10000 operating cycles. Maintenance intervals on serviceable types are much lower than the rated operating cycle count, however. It's doubtful that any molded case circuit breaker (other than those used for switch duty or motor starting duty) will ever see anywhere near that.


"operating cycles" being opened and closed? Wow.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

How long do the metal wheels on old school roller skates last?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> Look at the original romex found in 40's homes: many I find, the insulation is still pliable; inside jboxes and outlets are another story. Modern romex should last just as long.
> Panels should be good for 50 years, depending on manufacturer.


Based on OP: "







*Life expectancy of an electrical panel* 
Does anyone have any data on the average life expectancy of an electrical panel? I'm talking about a residential panel, indoors, not exposed to a harsh environment, not overloaded."

I have found Knob & Tube in better shape than 10 year old NM cable.

If installed properly and to specs...... No problem.

I will agree,there is junk out there.

That is our job to decipher it and install quality for a reasonable price.

$8.95/sq ft- resi. :thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> "operating cycles" being opened and closed? Wow.


I don't know what the definition of operating cycle is, but I would guess opening under load and closing without load.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Isn't it like asking how long a car will last? Some model "Ts" are still running and some practically new cars are in the crusher.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Isn't it like asking how long a car will last? Some model "Ts" are still running and some practically new cars are in the crusher.


Yeah, it really is, but I'm sure there's a spec somewhere on design life or at least MTBF testing data. What I can dig up has little to nothing on "years" but more on operating cycles.

EDIT: I just found Cutler-Hammer CH breaker testing data, and they list tested operating years at 224.75 years before failure.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

This is why the code changes every three years, it is trying to keep up with all the crap we plug in our house. In 1950 there was no need for multiple 20 amp ckts in the kitchen, but if you remodel the kitchen for today then the weak link will be the 1950 service. It just was not designed for what you are now trying to do with it.


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

Originally Posted by Mr Rewire
A panel over twenty years old should be replaced I don't believe recommending that is a scare tactic. The most common defende of an old panel is " I have never had a problem in the past" every bad panel I have changed worked " fine" until it didn't and that is a major issue because when you need it to work is when you have a problem not caused by the panel..



It's on the interwebz. It is true facts??


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TattooMan said:


> Originally Posted by Mr Rewire
> A panel over twenty years old should be replaced I don't believe recommending that is a scare tactic. The most common defende of an old panel is " I have never had a problem in the past" every bad panel I have changed worked " fine" until it didn't and that is a major issue because when you need it to work is when you have a problem not caused by the panel..
> 
> 
> ...


He says that claim is part of some top secret sales literature, but for some reason won't even cite the data that sales literature was based upon. Nobody does testing of mini molded case circuit breakers... yet!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I guess if we pluged a mathmatical formual into our own life expectancy, I for one, should be dead by now.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> We have a continuing Ed instructor around here that tells us it is our fault FPE went out of business because we used the wrong breakers for the type of circuit...hypothetically if you walked into a house wired in the 1950s and the electrical system had not been modified and no equipment other than what was available at the time was installed. Would the electrical system ever need to be replaced????


NO. I agree.


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## SHOPROCKET1 (Feb 13, 2012)

drsparky said:


> I guess if we pluged a mathmatical formual into our own life expectancy, I for one, should be dead by now.


 
We can't save everyone right?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Oh yeah, and for the record, a mild steel electrical panel with aluminum bus and stab-on breakers installed within 1/2 mile of the ocean will last about one year. Maybe 2. :laughing:


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Oh yeah, and for the record, a mild steel electrical panel with aluminum bus and stab-on breakers installed within 1/2 mile of the ocean will last about one year. Maybe 2. :laughing:


Not a panel, but near the beach. I got called to change this one yesterday










sorry its sideways


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

drsparky said:


> I guess if we pluged a mathmatical formual into our own life expectancy, I for one, should be dead by now.


www.deathclock.com

There the site. 

It claimed that I'm dead right now.
So I don't guarantee the results.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

green light said:


> Not a panel, but near the beach. I got called to change this one yesterday


I see beach grass :laughing: Are you going to replace it with stainless?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

green light said:


> Not a panel, but near the beach. I got called to change this one yesterday
> 
> View attachment 12163
> 
> ...



Can you give some back ground on the situation?

I think it is relevant. Thanx.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

leland said:


> Can you give some back ground on the situation?
> 
> I think it is relevant. Thanx.


I have a feeling that the background on this situation is that the panel is a rusty corroded piece of s**t with holes in it.

I've worked on my share of those things around here too.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

It's like Grandma's diapers man. It Depends :laughing:


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

erics37 said:


> I have a feeling that the background on this situation is that the panel is a rusty corroded piece of s**t with holes in it.
> 
> I've worked on my share of those things around here too.


Cousin IT!!


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Some of both, really. Insurance companies often, and regrettably, compel fuse box changeouts as a requirement for issuing the insurance.


same for around here


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

leland said:


> Can you give some back ground on the situation?
> 
> I think it is relevant. Thanx.


The 400 amp meter base is located on the south side of a house in Pacific City OR, about 200' from the ocean. Very corrosive environment. More info? as eric said its a rusted out p.o.s.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*formula*

I read 38 years x Inverse of Load as percentage

Ex. Calc load 47% of panel rating then 2.12 

so 38 x 2.12 therefore 80.56 years expected life


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> This is why the code changes every three years, it is trying to keep up with all the crap we plug in our house. In 1950 there was no need for multiple 20 amp ckts in the kitchen, but if you remodel the kitchen for today then the weak link will be the 1950 service. It just was not designed for what you are now trying to do with it.


I'll let you in on a secret. It's really to keep the NFPA in business. :whistling2: Oh and to force us to buy new products from manufacturers.


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> Does anyone have any data on the average life expectancy of an electrical panel? I'm talking about a residential panel, indoors, not exposed to a harsh environment, not overloaded.


http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/research/resareport.pdf

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but there actually is some data on this. :laughing:

In summary - except for the panels located outdoors, all the old panels tested to modern standards. This was on panels from 40 to 60 years old.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Chris1971 said:


> I saw 25 years but, that's what another ec website stated. *I want undisputed facts*.


 
Heh heh, good luck with that one :laughing:

There are only a handful of undisputed facts in life. You can even find people who dispute death as a fact, especially now that the internet has blossomed.


To do a study like this whould be a chore. I've seen 50+ year old unmolested installations that looked really good but who knows if the breakers would perform properly.


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

MarkyMark said:


> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/research/resareport.pdf
> 
> Sorry to disappoint everyone, but there actually is some data on this. :laughing:
> 
> In summary - except for the panels located outdoors, all the old panels tested to modern standards. This was on panels from 40 to 60 years old.


That's a great report, I quess I was lucky to find it a couple of years back, it still rides around in the van with me.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

TattooMan said:


> Cousin IT!!


I think you're thinking "Thing".. Cousin It was the walking ball of fur, if I remember right! Have a good day! :jester:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

MarkyMark said:


> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/research/resareport.pdf
> 
> Sorry to disappoint everyone, but there actually is some data on this. :laughing:
> 
> In summary - except for the panels located outdoors, all the old panels tested to modern standards. This was on panels from 40 to 60 years old.


That was good reading today. 
It's a shame they couldn't get as much data as they wanted. It also would have been interesting to know if the noted work was legal when done. 
.
Overall, I liked that document.
Thanks again for posting it.


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## TattooMan (Feb 10, 2012)

jmsmith said:


> I think you're thinking "Thing".. Cousin It was the walking ball of fur, if I remember right! Have a good day! :jester:


You sir would be right. I stand corrected!


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## bgleason (Mar 3, 2012)

I can say for a fact, the panel in my mother's house is 50 years old and is in veryb good shape. Not sure which mfg, but regardless it is in good shape. Installations and loads play major part in longevity as well as how well the panel is made. And of course we all know, they don't make anything like they used to.


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