# Opinion wanted: Apprenticeship program vs unofficial apprenticeship



## Yankee77 (Oct 5, 2020)

Go with a legit apprenticeship program, I say this because it will give you a well rounded education that hits all the bases ( residential, commercial, and industrial), which will create more options for you in the future. JMO


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Where are you, what state and what is their apprenticeship program? Find out out from the state what bid the path to a journeyman’s license is. If there is one. Usually there is is four years of class at nights after work to prep you to take the journeyman’s exam. Make sure you have the documentation from your employer at the end of the time so you can take the exam and get the license. Don’t spend the time being a helper and not get better pay after you’ve done your time.


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## JC_sparky (3 mo ago)

nrp3 said:


> Where are you, what state and what is their apprenticeship program? Find out out from the state what bid the path to a journeyman’s license is. If there is one. Usually there is is four years of class at nights after work to prep you to take the journeyman’s exam. Make sure you have the documentation from your employer at the end of the time so you can take the exam and get the license. Don’t spend the time being a helper and not get better pay after you’ve done your time.


I'm in Arizona we have several programs available, requirements are sort of an odd one compared to other states from what I've found. They don't require any classes, just that you can document, through your employer, your 8000 (I think) work hours. That's why I wonder about working for the one contractor, because technically I don't need the schooling to take the journeyman exam.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I have been in Arizona for 50 years doing electrical work. There is NO STATE Journeyman's test. There is a State Contractors Exam. Which is what I did to prove I was a journeyman.
No one keeps track of your hours unless your in a accredited program.

Watch out for the private paper mills. I applied to be an instructor at one and got so pissed off at them that I walked out of the meeting. They were one of the very few that taught pipe bending and simple motor controls.


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## JC_sparky (3 mo ago)

SWDweller said:


> I have been in Arizona for 50 years doing electrical work. There is NO STATE Journeyman's test. There is a State Contractors Exam. Which is what I did to prove I was a journeyman.
> No one keeps track of your hours unless your in a accredited program.
> 
> Watch out for the private paper mills. I applied to be an instructor at one and got so pissed off at them that I walked out of the meeting. They were one of the very few that taught pipe bending and simple motor controls.


Well that sounds unpleasant. But what exactly do you mean by a private paper mill? 
Also without having been in an apprenticeship before the only way I have to prove my hours are through my resume and contacting my previous employers, but they are long time established and respectable .
Aside from the individual contractor the apprenticeships I've been looking at are with NAECA (Accredited through NCCER I believe), WECA, or IEC. I believe I would be fine at any one of those?


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

A private for profit so called school. There is a huge discourse between those that do and those that teach. Goes back to the monks and the guilds. The guilds could not read or write but they could build cathedrals. The monks could read and write and had there noses in the air because of it. The groups got along with each other because they had to.
Our local community colleges got a huge influx of cash for practical training. I applied to be an instructor and they the teachers with the sheep skins on the wall would not accept my state documents for my contractors license because it was not the original.
Arizona has a independent electrical contractors group that used to have training. You could try the Electric League which is stronger in Maricopa county than in Southern Arizona.


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## ZacharyBob (May 3, 2020)

JC_sparky said:


> ...looking at it now, this got really wordy so I apologize and understand if you don't want to read through all of it. Main questions at the bottom.
> 
> Hi all, I'd like some advice from people who have been through a traditional apprenticeship, and those who potentially took an "alternative" route. Let me explain:
> Just for some background, I've been working in electrical for about a year and a half with a large company in the city, but I never officially enrolled in classes/an accredited apprenticeship program and have no formal education in the trade beyond OTJ experience.
> ...


Hey JC, it sounds like you're in a position very similar to the one I was in when I started. Rather than try to tell you what you should do, I'll just tell you what my experiences have been and you can take from it what you like. I'll be returning the favor of a lengthy post but hopefully you'll find some value in it. 

I'm in rural northern California (Siskiyou county) and in order to a get a start in the trade I brought a converted motor home two hours south to my grandparents house who were in proximity to a much larger population center (Redding, CA).

The guy I got on with was a non union one man shop (one licensed electrician that is) with his teenage son and sons friend roping track homes. He paid poorly, offered no real benefits (I've had better fringes flying coach) and was an emotional burden to those around him. I worked the summer for him showing up at his house @ 6am only to have him stumbled out closer to 7 to start a day in the 110 degree summer heat.

I learned a lot.. about what not to do and who I don't want to be.

Despite his promises to pay for training thru a local trade school for myself and the two teens, somehow he just never got around to getting the boys signed up. I followed thru on my own time, figuring he would reimburse me or that regardless I'd be better off for doing it on my own dime than not at all.

As I'm going thru this summer, I'm leaving voicemails for all the contractors in my home town every month letting them know of my progress, intention and interest. Finally towards the end of the summer, I got a call back from a guy who wanted me to come work for him yesterday. Coincidentally, the guy I was working for had completely abandoned me that day citing back pain as the cause, knowing that it was a midweek beer binge after months of similar offenses, I shamelessly packed my sh!t and headed home to go work for another one man shop where I would be the only apprentice.

With a season of sweat equity under my belt, I was excited to come home to worse pay, fewer benefits, and a different flavor of emotional burden. But hey, I'm back in my own home with my wife to be, my dog, and my own bed.

At this point I had decided the trade school in Redding wasn't a viable option when compared to WECA which was, as you know, a predominately online schooling.

A couple days a week I'd come home to night classes in a virtual classroom with instructors of hugely varying quality, and a group of trainees of below average ambition and aptitude.

I was averaging only about 30 hours a week, given minimal opportunity to grow and fighting to get reimbursed for 100's of miles of travel each week in my own pick up with thousands of dollars of my own power tools.

I started out working for this guy young and broke, but after a couple years of hard work.. I was no longer young.

It became apparent that I needed to explore my options if I wanted to get ahead in the industry. When I got my ducks in a row for my nearest local I went and interviewed, after which I got a job offer in a voicemail before I had even gotten back to my house.

I'd come to learn this was largely due to two factors; #1 I had trade experience, #2 I didn't call any board members "Dude".

I was given credit for all of my work hours and approximately half of my schooling. My life changed almost literally overnight. I found myself in an classroom where education was taken seriously, instructors were informative, experienced and encouraging. This all took place in a training facility that was clean, organized and full of 1/2" EMT to which I could commit heinous acts in an attempt to master box offsets.

Outside of school I work at a mid sized company of about 30 electricians with centuries of combined industry experience that ranged from residential service to new commercial all the way to large industrial where annual labor costs were 7 digits and there was lots of square footage to hide my (at the time) really mediocre pipe work.

I put $10,000 down on a 2021 honda Civic that pays for itself in fuel savings to carry the very short list of tools I was expected to provide for these jobs.

I'm 18 months in with this company, the civic is nearly paid for, I'm making more than double what I made when I came back home from Redding with a benefits package I could've only dreamed of two years prior. My contractor is appreciative, my coworkers are helpful, I feel wanted and my needs are met. Everything I had hoped to get from my wife! 😏

Seriously though, I love my life more than ever. Going union is not the only path, but it's definitely one good option.

I don't begrudge the time I spent non union, and I don't resent the guys I worked for. Despite their short comings they taught me a lot. I do cherish the stability I have with a mid sized union company, and am so very grateful for the fact that my now pregnant wife and my future kid will have a generous coverage under our health and welfare package. The union pensions are just a cherry on top.


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## JC_sparky (3 mo ago)

ZacharyBob said:


> Hey JC, it sounds like you're in a position very similar to the one I was in when I started. Rather than try to tell you what you should do, I'll just tell you what my experiences have been and you can take from it what you like. I'll be returning the favor of a lengthy post but hopefully you'll find some value in it.
> 
> I'm in rural northern California (Siskiyou county) and in order to a get a start in the trade I brought a converted motor home two hours south to my grandparents house who were in proximity to a much larger population center (Redding, CA).
> 
> ...


Thank you, this is actually some pretty good insight. It was entertaining too, always a plus. The good parts of this sounds like the experience I had at my last employer just without having been in the classes, but that was by choice at the time, and they were non-union. Any comment on the potential downsides of union work that people mention sometimes, dues, fees, restrictive labor/business practices? I know there are definitely pros and cons either way and I'm not one to start fights about it, just curious. My only personal experience with unions is not being given an offer (even though I did great on the tests) and having to find an alternative route into the trade. It could be different now that I have experience, if I tried again, but there's less presence here than in the city.


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## ZacharyBob (May 3, 2020)

JC_sparky said:


> Thank you, this is actually some pretty good insight. It was entertaining too, always a plus. The good parts of this sounds like the experience I had at my last employer just without having been in the classes, but that was by choice at the time, and they were non-union. Any comment on the potential downsides of union work that people mention sometimes, dues, fees, restrictive labor/business practices? I know there are definitely pros and cons either way and I'm not one to start fights about it, just curious. My only personal experience with unions is not being given an offer (even though I did great on the tests) and having to find an alternative route into the trade. It could be different now that I have experience, if I tried again, but there's less presence here than in the city.


Here's my most recent weeks paystub, I hope it doesn't come off as boasting or anything of the sort. I only want to offer you a verifiable piece of information based on my experience.

See the highlighted dues on the bottom left under the taxes and deductions category which is my cost for the fringe benefits on the bottom right. I think you'll agree that my cost is more than fair for the benefits I'm receiving.

To summarize the information there, my year to date dues are roughly $700 for about $24,500 in benefits.

The only thing not shown on this paystub is about $45 a month of working dues that are paid directly to the local and covers the cost of benefits not often thought of like legal representation and mediation.


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## ZacharyBob (May 3, 2020)

As far as restrictive labor and business practices, the only thing I see them restricting is the opportunity for shady contractors to take advantage of my body and youth.


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## ZacharyBob (May 3, 2020)

JC_sparky said:


> Thank you, this is actually some pretty good insight. It was entertaining too, always a plus. The good parts of this sounds like the experience I had at my last employer just without having been in the classes, but that was by choice at the time, and they were non-union. Any comment on the potential downsides of union work that people mention sometimes, dues, fees, restrictive labor/business practices? I know there are definitely pros and cons either way and I'm not one to start fights about it, just curious. My only personal experience with unions is not being given an offer (even though I did great on the tests) and having to find an alternative route into the trade. It could be different now that I have experience, if I tried again, but there's less presence here than in the city.


My experience suggests that your thinking is correct, a little experience goes a long way. Not only is it useful to the contractors when you're on the job, but it demonstrates your commitment and desire to be in the trade. 

A lot of folks get passed up on because there's so many that think being an electrician will be easy money. Showing the contractors that you're willing to put your time in crawling attics and digging ditches will put you into a whole different category in their minds and a whole different position in their ranking.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I did not do an official apprenticeship, I also worked for a one-man shop and learned a lot, I have also worked for large firms and learned a lot.

In my opinion, do an apprenticeship if available as many states will not allow you to sit for a J-Mans test without formal schooling. While you are in AZ now you may relocate.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

There's nothing wrong with learning the fundamentals through an apprenticeship program. It can be IBEW or a voc school. I was trained by an IBEW instructor _at a voc school_. Once hired I learned from private business owners who employed semi retired and retired IBEW inside wiremen. I taught myself the rest and now hold my own licenses.

No matter what you do, *you get out what you put in. *


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