# Does the union have control over Chicago?



## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Does the Union have control over Chicago, or is that a myth?

I don't want to ruffle any feathers or send out the dogs , but I am Non union and were working in a heavily unionized area. Which my question is do I have the right to work there as an employee of the contractor that was awarded the contract.

I know there is ways around the union, and the city officials because I have seen proof and have worked on legit jobs down town where the union did not interfere.

But yesterday we were on the job and there was a lot of wandering eyes on us!It is risky and my boss knows that and was reluctant to take this job, but the GC wants us to do the work. So what do you do?

I mean I have been instructed to lock the doors , and not let anyone in but people just walk in anyway because the damn plumber keeps the door open. Also told to lie to anyone who asks me for my union card, which is ridiculous in my eyes , cause if anyone asks me for a card I may just ignore them, or show them a gun card, fishing license, fathers day card,id card, business card, but surely not a union card, Although I do have one that is outdated about 6 yrs and is from local 11, not 134.

I 'd rather be working on a non union job thats for sure no headaches.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

cal, be REAL careful when you energize ANYTHING.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

*Does the union have control over Chicago?*

*Yeah that's pretty much the way I hear it.*


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

where you working these days cali?? :whistling2:


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

between ibew and teamsters....

yeah, i would say so


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

If I told you steve134 the BA might show up! I'll tell ya what you tell me where your working and we'll meet for lunch!


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

I spent 50 years working in Chicago, L.U. 134. I'm now retired in Florida on a generous pension with medical benefits including optical and dental benefits and life insurance. Whatever the relationship between the city of Chicago and the union is should be envied by all. I have never met anyone down here in Florida who had a retirement package even close to what I have. I was fortunate as a young man to join a union like Local 134 and I will always be grateful for my good fortune.


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

wwilson174 said:


> I spent 50 years working in Chicago, L.U. 134. I'm now retired in Florida on a generous pension with medical benefits including optical and dental benefits and life insurance. Whatever the relationship between the city of Chicago and the union is should be envied by all. I have never met anyone down here in Florida who had a retirement package even close to what I have. I was fortunate as a young man to join a union like Local 134 and I will always be grateful for my good fortune.


 

ohh i can't wait for that day.... some day.. hopefully your enjoying retirement!


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Thank you Steve, believe me , that day will come quicker than you could imagine. Good luck to you and yours, BillW


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

*Yes!!!!!!!*

The answer is yes! Local 134 has some power down in the city. I had a visit today from a business rep. from local 134 today. He had a lot of questions for me and my guys let me tell ya. Needless to say we will not be working there no more.

It is a relief let me tell ya, cause there is nothing worse then being in a volatile situation ready to ignite at any second.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

:laughing::laughing:


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

*The B.A. shut us down today!*

I was working today and the Local 134 BA came to our job site today and asked a bunch of questions. Needless to say we had to pull off the job to avoid the strike. 

Although I don't really mind that we cant return to the job it was a hassle driving downtown and paying for parking and traffic sucked also . 

But for all you non union guys did you ever notice a BA is like a car salesmen they just never shut up. I went round and round with the guy, i just wanted to be left alone, and this guy kept trying to sell me the union!He kept asking why I haven't joined the brotherhood, and my answer was because you don't have any work he did not have an answer for me after that.All this guy could do is talk up the union and the turns around and talks [email protected]#t about our work. I know some lucky contractor will finish the job and utilize the work that we had done up to this point.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Got to hate that. Why don't you join the union?:laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm confused, how can they shut you down?

I clearly don't know enough about the Union.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

The previous three posts were moved here from a redundant thread.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

speedy petey : why did you move my post to here this is a non union matter. not a union topic!


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

> Frasbee I'm confused, how can they shut you down?
> 
> I clearly don't know enough about the Union. Yesterday 08:16 PM


Technically they did not literally kick us off the job, but the GC was told by the hotel that we were working at they did not want the union picketing the job. So to avoid the picket line we simply pulled off the job. This was something I expected to happen sooner or later.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Cali, check your PM's.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

calimurray said:


> Technically they did not literally kick us off the job, but the GC was told by the hotel that we were working at they did not want the union picketing the job. So to avoid the picket line we simply pulled off the job. This was something I expected to happen sooner or later.


Good Job Mr. BA that's what we pay you for, Thank you!


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Wow, Union boys sound like a bunch of pricks.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

> wwilson174
> 
> Good Job Mr. BA that's what we pay you for, Thank you!


Yeah and he waited until the job was completely roughed to, it so those union guys don't have to work to hard to finish the job.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Wow, Union boys sound like a bunch of pricks.


We are just protecting our livelihood from pirates.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> I'm confused, how can they shut you down?
> 
> I clearly don't know enough about the Union.


That is the truth!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> We are just protecting our livelihood from pirates.


That's an ignorant statement.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Alright. Let's not let this get out of hand guys.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Alright. Let's not let this get out of hand guys.


You are quite right, there is nothing to be gained by exchanging insults!


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

hey wilson, you gettin tired of chasing girls, drinkin beer, and fishin yet ???


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

paul d. said:


> hey wilson, you gettin tired of chasing girls, drinkin beer, and fishin yet ???


Not yet but getting close!


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

So...can non-union guys picket a union job?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> So...can non-union guys picket a union job?


I'm sure they could, but I don't know any that would stop working to waste there time doing this.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> That's an ignorant statement.


so was this:

Originally Posted by *Frasbee*  
_Wow, Union boys sound like a bunch of pricks._


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> So...can non-union guys picket a union job?


You could, but you'd damn well better be looking over your shoulder the whole way home, and hope no one followed you that they know where you live.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Based off what the original poster said, yes, it *sounds* to me like Union boys are a bunch of pricks. The idea of paying someone to stir up trouble when people are just trying to get in their 8 is 'prickish' behavior in my book.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Based off what the original poster said, yes, it *sounds* to me like Union boys are a bunch of pricks. The idea of paying someone to stir up trouble when people are just trying to get in their 8 is 'prickish' behavior in my book.


maybe the union "boys" are prickish, and maybe the union "men" aren't. Maybe you are a prick. Or maybe you just like stirring the pot.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Well said Steelersman!!!!:whistling2::thumbup:

Charlie


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

steelersman said:


> maybe the union "boys" are prickish, and maybe the union "men" aren't. Maybe you are a prick. Or maybe you just like stirring the pot.


If the only pot I stir is this thread on a forum then I'll find no problem sleeping tonight.

Hope you enjoy work tomorrow.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> If the only pot I stir is this thread on a forum then I'll find no problem sleeping tonight.
> 
> Hope you enjoy work tomorrow.


I hope so too.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> We are just protecting our livelihood from pirates.


It sounds like in this scenario the union were the pirates. This is exactly the bull**** that makes people stay out of the union. Every guy on that job saw that happen and saw that there work was stolen out from under them because they didn't join the club.


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> It sounds like in this scenario the union were the pirates. This is exactly the bull**** that makes people stay out of the union. Every guy on that job saw that happen and saw that there work was stolen out from under them because they didn't join the club.


sorry we do it different in chicago. we put it in pipe, and we don't deal with non-union. especially when good guys are on the bench. stick to the suburbs dude.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

When I originally made this post, I mentioned that I knew and expected the union to interfere, Downtown Chicago you'd have to be a moron to think you could get away with it.



> steve134
> sorry we do it different in chicago. we put it in pipe, and we don't deal with non-union. especially when good guys are on the bench. stick to the suburbs dude.


In Chicago the union is the MOB , basically they come on the Job and offer you a great package but they have no work to offer you, considering all the good guys are on the bench!
And then if you don't comply with them they send those good guys to picket the job, or I have even seen non union people picketing for the unions.

Then when work is slow and your on the bench and cant pay your bills and non union is thriving still , never stopped... they say you cant do side jobs, cant work for another non union shop, or your screwed.

We have a guy that works for us that was union for 12 yrs. got laid off and the books were full for a year at least, the union found out he is working for us and took his pension from him.He had 10 yrs vested.

I am sorry but I that seems ridiculous to me!


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Where there any problems for you/your company Cali, for not completing the project? or have you gotten to that stage yet?

What percentage of the job was complete before you pulled off site?
What about liens, holdbacks, was there any money being held 30/60/(heaven forbid)90 days? you said it was a hotel, so I assume it was a fair sized project. Was it new construction, renovation, etc?

I've never been in a situation where we've been forced (for whatever reason) off of an uncompleted project, but I would have to imagine there would be loads of logistical and financial problems arising.

Just curious, 
thanks.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Wilson, 134, Steeler, et al. Way to break the sterotype. You all would help the unions more by not talking.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Jack London (Call of the Wild author) wrote more than novels and stories.
Back in 1903 Jack wrote on the topic of organizing. The language is a bit stilted to a modern ear but the message still rings true.

It is for this reason that a laborer is so fiercely hostile to another laborer who offers to work for less pay or longer hours. To hold his place, (which is to live), he must offset this offer by another equally liberal, which is equivalent to giving away somewhat from the food and shelter he enjoys. To sell his day's work for $2, instead of $2.50, means that he, his wife, and his children will not have so good a roof over their heads, so warm clothes on their backs, so substantial food in their stomachs. Meat will be bought less frequently and it will be tougher and less nutritious, stout new shoes will go less often on the children's feet, and disease and death will be more imminent in a cheaper house and neighborhood.


Thus the generous laborer, giving more of a day's work for less return (measured in terms of food and shelter), threatens the life of his less generous brother laborer, and at the best, if he does not destroy that life, he diminishes it. Whereupon the less generous laborer looks upon him as an enemy, and, as men are inclined to do in a tooth-and-nail society, he tries to kill the man who is trying to kill him.


But there is more to the question than has yet been discussed. The labor scab is no more detestable to his brother laborers than is the capitalist scab to his brother capitalists. A capitalist may get most for least in dealing with his laborers, and in so far be a non-scab; but at the same time, in his dealings with his fellow-capitalists, he may give most for least and be the very worst kind of scab. The most heinous crime an employer of labor can commit is to scab on his fellow-employers of labor. Just as the individual laborers have organized into groups to protect themselves from the peril of the scab laborer, so have the employers organized into groups to protect themselves from the peril of the scab employers. The employers' federations, associations, and trusts are nothing more nor less than unions. They are organized to destroy scabbing amongst themselves and to encourage scabbing amongst others. For this reason they pool interests, determine prices, and present an unbroken and aggressive front to the labor group.



Check out the rest:
http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

oldman said:


> Wilson, 134, Steeler, et al. Way to break the sterotype. You all would help the unions more by not talking.


I don't know what a "sterotype" is. But I receive help from the Union more than give it!


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I don't know what a "sterotype" is. But I receive help from the Union more than give it!


Yes. Thank you


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

some times this forum cracks me up!I love how all the open shop guys think that the union guys are just laid off,brain washed,unemployed lazy robots.
And the part about non union picketting a union job cracks me up,that was a good one!The LAW states that you can't pickett with no pupose or reason.The reason that the local picketts is because of non union making and working for LOWER WAGES then the local rates.
If the contractor you worked for proved he's paying ATLEAST the scale,then there would be no pickett line,no BA,and the union couldnt do a thing about it.
Don't believe all the hype about union members being out of work all the time and quitting to work non union,because it never really happens.
Bottom line is MOST non union contractors are cheap and will tell there labor any lie and stero type to stop there labor from bettering themselves and organizing a union.
I know from first hand expierence,I organized and never looked back.
Chicago sounds like Philadelphia,good job.:thumbup:


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Vic, 28 years ago I was working nonunion and the owner always told us he was losing work to the Union contractors. I then found out what their scale was. I compared it to what Mr. Tight Wad was paying and went union. I have not been without a job in 25 years. In regards to the picket lines our local has picket line duty. We walk those lines without pay and walk them proudly.:whistling2:

Charlie


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

As do we,I will always show up for my pickett line duty and always respect others pickett lines.
I learned this from my father he was a twu member for 38 years.One year they were on strike for ten months.Because of there determanation we enjoyed proper health care as a family and he now enjoyes a nice pension as a retiree who dedicated 38 years to the union and the company.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> some times this forum cracks me up!


Glad we could cheer you up.




slickvic277 said:


> I love how all the open shop guys think that the union guys are just laid off,brain washed,unemployed lazy robots.


I'm not sure where you see this. I looked for it but can't find it.




slickvic277 said:


> And the part about non union picketting a union job cracks me up,that was a good one!The LAW states that you can't pickett with no pupose or reason.The reason that the local picketts is because of non union making and working for LOWER WAGES then the local rates.
> If the contractor you worked for proved he's paying ATLEAST the scale,then there would be no pickett line,no BA,and the union couldnt do a thing about it.


So you are saying that the local rates are law? And that open shops not charging/paying scale are breaking the law? 
But if it is not the law that open shops must charge scale what legal right do unions have to picket? Simply the fact that they don't like open shops charging what they charge?
Using that logic, I can picket anyone I want for any reason.
I sure would like to see these laws in writing. I never had a reason to look for it so maybe you can post a link.





slickvic277 said:


> Don't believe all the hype about union members being out of work all the time and quitting to work non union,because it never really happens.


No, not all the time. Sometimes. In fact there are a couple of guys on here that have said this very thing.





slickvic277 said:


> Bottom line is MOST non union contractors are cheap and will tell there labor any lie and stero type to stop there labor from bettering themselves and organizing a union.


Lie? Why? Isn't this all public information? We have the interweb now. You can find any information you want. 
What could a boss possibly lie about to stop his men from "organizing"??? 
And "better" is a VERY subjective term. Your opinion is you are better off. My opinion is I am better off. It is unlikely either one of us would agree with the other or that we would change our minds. That is what makes this country beautiful.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Vic:

90% of the trash talks comes from union members. 



> Bottom line is MOST non union contractors are cheap and will tell there labor any lie and stero type to stop there labor from bettering themselves and organizing a union.


You state this because you associated with some unsavory shops.

Charlie why was he a tight wad? Because he figured a way to keep more of his money? 

He has a right to do this just as you have a right to join a union and hopefully it stays this way.

I state this over and over UNTILL the narrow minded, shallow, and sometimes ignorant statements stop being made against open shop workers there will always be angast between the two.

If union members were more open minded and open to open shop guys, MAYBE it would be easier to organize.

Picketing, salting and trashing other electricians BUYS the locals NOTHING in gaining shops men and work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Several years ago I went to several local high schools to try and get the top of the VOTECH classes and steer the others to the local hall. When I started to inform the class about the union (after giving my pitch about my company) the teacher (A NEA member) cut me off and told me he had instructed his class to go open shop and avoid the union. 

I asked why, it seems the local sent a guy to the class in a previous year and told the class that they could forget what they learned in VOTECH, that the union would tell them how to do electric work right. The teacher was livid and never asked them back.

Additionally it seems all material in the classes was donated by open shops, he also explained when he contacted union shops for material he was told NO. The open shops donated the material time and jobs to graduating students

This was not an isolated instance; I heard this from two different counties. 

SOME do us little to promote organizing.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> It is unlikely either one of us would agree with the other or that we would change our minds. That is what makes this country beautiful.


 
Ahhh but if some get their way this will change, no more private voting VERY AMERICAN yeah right.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Don't believe all the hype about union members being out of work all the time and quitting to work non union,because it never really happens.
> Bottom line is MOST non union contractors are cheap and will tell there labor any lie and stero type to stop there labor from bettering themselves and organizing a union.


5 out of the 8 people that I have worked with in the last year quit the union to work non-union. 
Bottom line is MOST non union contractors don't have to tell the labor a damn thing about the union because they work where they want to work and that's how they like it. I'm free to go join the union anytime, but I don't want to because of people like you and the majority of the people that talk union on this site. The few that can hype up the union without being assholes are totally overshadowed by all the people that act like working non-union is akin to killing a guys dog or stealing his wife.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Chicago sounds like Philadelphia,good job.:thumbup:


So sad, but it's true.

I went to Orleans Technical Institute in NE Philly.

They took us to the carpenter's union as a trip.

In fact, many teachers at the school (which was founded by a jewish non-profit), often encouraged us to look to the unions for work. I started to get under the impression that the only way to get into construction in Philly was through the union.

I almost fell for the hype.

I won't deny I still consider the union from time to time. Unfortunately they don't seem keen on teaching you for 4 or 5 years and losing you to a non-union shop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be obligated to pay for all that schooling if I left, correct?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Mf Dagger,look at any of my posts on this forum I have never put anyone down for working,wether its union or non union and I don't personally feel that a non union member dosnt deserve to work and support there family,that being said I support the union members right to protest the lower wages of the non union contractor.

Speedy pete I never said that the locals wages are law,I said picketting with no purpose is against the law.Then its called harassment,so usually the picketting is to protest lower wages as compared to the prevailing rate which is determined by the locals labor agreement.I used this as an example of why there might be a picket line.The law on picketing is under the basic guide to the national labor relations act;under the right to strike section,and its the strike for a lawful object clause.
http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/basicguide.pdf

Frasbee I also went to orleans tech.when did you go?I dont remember them ever encouraging anyone to work union.I remember them avoiding the "U" word like the plauge.And as far as that school being non-profit well I can start a whole other topic on that one.
OH,you want a real good laugh the brand spanking new Orleans tech training facility was built union!

Brian John you said "I state this over and over UNTILL the narrow minded, shallow, and sometimes ignorant statements stop being made against open shop workers there will always be angast between the two."
Yes I agree with this statement but this statement is true in revearse as well.
My first post on this topic was probally taken a little out of context.
I am not anti non union worker,Because I was once there,but Im very pro union for the worker because it can and does work.
And brian I also have mixed emotions on the employee free choice act.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

wow! A lot of good comments from both sides interesting!



> Thomps
> Junior Member
> 
> Join Date: Nov 2008
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In my AREA and in several areas I have worked in the following seems to be true FOR THE MOST PART.

Working union is no different than open shop. WORKING that is the day to day job of being an electrician.

I have had some issues on BIG union jobs where I was accused of working to fast which was "going to put us all out of work". They got laid off I got a service truck.

I have also been on open shop jobs were other union trades trashed our work.

BUT and this is a big but in my opinion. For the worker, if the bullsh*t is not there, union is the best way to go in the long run. Wages are generally higher, benefits are top notch, retirement to boot. And the best thing; this stuff stays with you as you move from company to company over the years. In my area it is possible to stay with one firm forever but should the owner retire, die or go bust you can carry your bennies with you. A MAJOR PLUS.

And if you are a slacker type your benefits and wages are the same as the bust ass electrician you are bitching about being a kiss ass working next to you.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

calimurray said:


> Does the Union have control over Chicago, or is that a myth?
> 
> I don't want to ruffle any feathers or send out the dogs , but I am Non union and were working in a heavily unionized area. Which my question is do I have the right to work there as an employee of the contractor that was awarded the contract.
> 
> ...


 I have no idea why someone would want to sneak around Chicago and lock doors and hide.
Its like someone is seeing someone elses wife or girlfriend.
Thats real noble.
Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
Or
go someplace else and work!:thumbsup:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Frasbee I also went to orleans tech.when did you go?I dont remember them ever encouraging anyone to work union.I remember them avoiding the "U" word like the plauge.And as far as that school being non-profit well I can start a whole other topic on that one.
> OH,you want a real good laugh the brand spanking new Orleans tech training facility was built union!


I went there during '07.

I spent most of my time in the old school, and they moved us into the new school on Red Lion during the last month or two of my term.

I took the building maintenance course which is when I found out electrical was pretty cool.

They never spoke badly about the union. I would say they encouraged union and non-union pretty equally.

I've found the culture in Philly was overwhelmingly union, though.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

jrannis said:


> I have no idea why someone would want to sneak around Chicago and lock doors and hide.
> Its like someone is seeing someone elses wife or girlfriend.
> Thats real noble.
> Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
> ...


Well said, my friend! BillW


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I have no idea why someone would want to sneak around Chicago and lock doors and hide.
> Its like someone is seeing someone elses wife or girlfriend.
> Thats real noble.
> Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
> ...


Let me see...

Broken legs.
Smashed windows
Assaulted wife.
Threaten the kids.

I can sure see why.


So I start an organization ahhhhh lets call it the mafia and I say no one can work in my area unless they pay me, if they don't I strong arm them.

yeah that's the "TICKET"


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Let me see...
> 
> Broken legs.
> Smashed windows
> ...


Sarcasm and and insults are no substitute for reasoned debate!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
> Or
> go someplace else and work!:thumbsup:


So you are saying that without my "card" you don't think I should be working there?
Isn't this a public city? Are there laws stating that ONLY union workers are allowed to work in Chicago? 
If not then WHY do I have to go some place else to work? Just because you say so?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> Sarcasm and and insults are no substitute for reasoned debate!


In some cases this is not sarcasm. And don't tell me things like this don't happened. They do.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> In some cases this is not sarcasm. And don't tell me things like this don't happened. They do.


 I told you nothing of the sort. My comment was meant to illustrate the tactic of using sarcasm in lieu of logic. In my experience whenever I have been involved in a debate,and my adversary abandons the defense of his position and resorts to personal attack and insults then I consider the battle to be won! BillW


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I have no idea why someone would want to sneak around Chicago and lock doors and hide.
> Its like someone is seeing someone elses wife or girlfriend.
> Thats real noble.
> Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
> ...


I don't have my "card" but I do hold a master's license, went through an apprenticeship, have 29 years experience, carry $5 million of liability insurance, am bonded in every jurisdiction where I am licensed to work and am sometimes under-bid by IBEW contractors so I don't believe I'm low-balling anyone. If someone called me a cheat to my face I would assume they were prepared to have their butt handed to them. I have worked along side IBEW guys and never had a cross word or ounce of trouble from any of them. I would not tolerate that crap from anyone and I sure wouldn't expect anyone else to suffer one minute of it from me either. I'm not saying I haven't heard a union or non-union guy trash-talk the other side because I have. It has just never been from anyone from either side that actually worked for a living.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I told you nothing of the sort.


That's not what I meant. I was saying that you can't deny that that sort of thing does not happen, or at least that it used to happen.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's not what I meant. I was saying that you can't deny that that sort of thing does not happen, or at least that it used to happen.


How about something to support that allegation, I challenge you!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> How about something to support that allegation, I challenge you!


Well I cant say I didn't completely expect that reply.

Challenge accepted. 

No, I don't know anyone personally who was actually physically assaulted, but I know guys who have had tires slashed, trucks vandalized, etc.
I myself was <discretely> threatened by a BA. I was told that if I showed back up a job site in "union territory" "_they would take care of things the way the union takes care of things_" (direct quote).
Threats and intimidation are one click below physical incidents.

This might be what he was referring to: 


> The National Institute for Labor Relations Research has compiled a list of incidents of union violence that average nearly 300 per year for the last 30 years.


http://www.unionfacts.com/articles/crimeViolence.cfm
http://www.google.com/search?q=unio...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Please don't be so naive that you don't think these sort of things happen.


Don't get me wrong, I know that not all areas are like this. In some areas the union still has a valid purpose and is doing good things. I don't think NYC and Chicago fit this description though.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Well petey, we all know that unionfacts.com is really a biased antiunion site, so it doesn't count.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> Sarcasm and and insults are no substitute for reasoned debate!


 
No sarcasm, no insults in my post...TELL ME YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING?

Speedy there are several ongoing cases of unions trying to force votes, going on at present, I'll locate the company names.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Does getting shot count?

http://www.unionfacts.com/articles/crimeViolence.cfm


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

For the record, I am not trying to stir the sh*t and beat a dead horse with this ongoing debate. It's just some folks understand that there are two (or more) sides to every story and more than one way to do something. Running a business and working are no different. 

When someone comes on and says that the union is the only way to go, or make comments like:
_"we put it in pipe, and we don't deal with non-union"
"Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
Or
go someplace else and work!"_
Or if someone blatantly says (or challenges) that union violence does not exist I can't keep out of it any more.

I have worked side by side with union guys and rarely had a problem. I should mention this is once I got away from the city. 
It seems bigger city union guys have much more of a chip on their shoulder than their countrified or smaller city brothers. Like if you are not in the union and don't think like them you are beneath them.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> No sarcasm, no insults in my post...TELL ME YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING?
> 
> Speedy there are several ongoing cases of unions trying to force votes, going on at present, I'll locate the company names.


If you review your posts you will see that you referred to me as " ignorant" I consider that to be an insult. You sarcastically refer to "Broken legs, slashed tires, assaulted wives and threatened children." Since you did not cite any documentation I charitably considered it to be sarcasm. If you do not stand behind these assertions perhaps you would like an opportunity to clarify them and a retraction would be in order. BillW


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

As for assertions please see above

as for ignorant you said



> We are just protecting our livelihood from pirates.


You are insulting people you know nothing about, you have NO idea on their skill level, licensing and professionalism.

From Wikipedia.

*Ignorance* is the state in which a person lacks knowledge and is unaware of various issues in general. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education.

You made comments that lead me to feel you were ignorant of the issues. And by your continued post you seem to prove my point.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I have no idea why someone would want to sneak around Chicago and lock doors and hide.
> Its like someone is seeing someone elses wife or girlfriend.
> Thats real noble.
> Get your card and walk in the front door like a man and enjoy the wages and benefits those you are trying to cheat worked so hard for.
> ...



I did walk in the front door like a man, and I am not trying to cheat anybody out of anything. Technically I was doing my job what men do! 

I was following orders from the authority that pays my wages like a man would. 

I don't want or need a card thank you!


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Are all you guys on vacation or do you have a laptop at your work,Its seems to me there's a lot of typing during work hours going on around here!


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

calimurray said:


> Are all you guys on vacation or do you have a laptop at your work,Its seems to me there's a lot of typing during work hours going on around here!


crackberry


you can't have a reasonable, rational debate with a brick wall....i've tried it for years, it doesn't work


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> As for assertions please see above
> 
> as for ignorant you said
> 
> ...


 Incredible! And how do you defend your denial of sarcasm?


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> As for assertions please see above
> 
> as for ignorant you said
> 
> ...


 Incredible! And how do you defend your denial of sarcasm?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> Incredible! And how do you defend your denial of sarcasm?


 
Jeeze I have to win all the points....I mean 2 out of 3 give me a break.

Look we are never going to agree on this issue. I can only tell you that you and those that SEEM to have the attitude YOU have are doing the union organizing movement no good IMO. Additionally the open shop perspective of the union is crap because of attitudes that some lay out there (STRICTLY what I can tell from your post you seem to be the leader of handing the public a bad perspective of unions)

How man have you organized, how many apprentices have you directly brought in to the union. And your family and close friends do not count. I try to take a positive view of the union out to men in the field, schools and to young men I meet in what I consider dead end jobs. I present a positive attitude. You seem to show everything that all open shop men and those that know nothing of the union hate.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I would agree with brian john.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you are saying that without my "card" you don't think I should be working there?
> Isn't this a public city? Are there laws stating that ONLY union workers are allowed to work in Chicago?
> If not then WHY do I have to go some place else to work? Just because you say so?


Thats funny,
I can hear an illegal immigrant making the same argument!:laughing: 

Fact is the labor in productive cities factor in benefits such as health care and retirement benefits to take the financial pressure off the public.

People that come in from the outside of that environment are just takers and do not contribute to the big picture.

See the arguments about illegal foreign labor.

Then if you want to hand me my butt. Bring your lunch and come get some.:thumbsup:

What will your men have to show for 40 years of work?
A picture of your Masters Card and your insurance certificate?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Thats funny,
> I can hear an illegal immigrant making the same argument!:laughing:
> 
> Fact is the labor in productive cities factor in benefits such as health care and retirement benefits to take the financial pressure off the public.
> ...


this is by far one of the most incredulous arguments ever....how do you make the leap to even attempt to equate legal non-union to illegal immigration? additionally, the unions main customer is the government...guess who pays the bill for that? yep, the public...so, all the benefits still put pressure on the public...

be pro-union, but be intellectually honest about it...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

oldman said:


> this is by far one of the most incredulous arguments ever....how do you make the leap to even attempt to equate legal non-union to illegal immigration? additionally, the unions main customer is the government...guess who pays the bill for that? yep, the public...so, all the benefits still put pressure on the public...
> 
> be pro-union, but be intellectually honest about it...


You sir are an ignorant person.:laughing:
I have worked union for over 25 years and cant remember being on one gonverment job.
The first couple of years I had in the trade were non-union. That was all federal government work.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Thats funny,
> I can hear an illegal immigrant making the same argument!:laughing:
> 
> Fact is the labor in productive cities factor in benefits such as health care and retirement benefits to take the financial pressure off the public.
> ...


Way to completely avoid answering my questions.
You sound like a politician.

And your illegal immigrant correlation is so baseless and irrelevant it's not funny.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Way to completely avoid answering my questions.
> You sound like a politician.
> 
> And your illegal immigrant correlation is so baseless and irrelevant it's not funny.


Think about it and then tell me who is in denial!

Just can't get your head in it I guess.

Explain to me why we don't let them come here and work!


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Yup. You're a politician alright. 
Sorry, I won't play your games. I like to play fair. 

If you want to attempt to answer my question fine. Until then you can play <games> with yourself.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

This is one of the reasons I hate this part of the site. I can't stand this B-S. 
I hate that I can't avoid looking at it. It's the proverbial car wreck.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The one fastest growing unions is AFSCME..... GOVERNMENT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFSCME


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D0DEEDD1339E733A25754C1A9659C946197D6CF


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Guys, just a note. Please DO NOT post any more links to adult web sites. 
There have been many complaints about this and I agree. 
We all know what's out there and how to find it. If you want to share something like that send a PM.

Yes, we are mainly all adults here, but that is not to say minors don't come here to get information and ideas for the future.

Nathan has already stated his agreement and said to do whatever I need to to stop it.

Thanks.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I guess I'm an Illegal Immigrant?

Thanks for Enlightening me....

Tom


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

OK now that is just being prejudice.
Seems like if you are the kind of person that helps people out, then you are doing it out of kindness.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yup. You're a politician alright.
> Sorry, I won't play your games. I like to play fair.
> 
> If you want to attempt to answer my question fine. Until then you can play <games> with yourself.


Sorry, I just didn't see a question to answer.
Just looked like comments.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Thats funny,
> I can hear an illegal immigrant making the same argument!:laughing:
> 
> Fact is the labor in productive cities factor in benefits such as health care and retirement benefits to take the financial pressure off the public.
> ...


The illegal immigrant statement isn't even close to being relevant to the discussion. We started out talking about union/non-union American citizens.
Who are the people from the "outside"? Outside what? Outside of the geographical area or outside of the union? If you're talking about the former, then what about travelers? Their money doesn't stay in the local economy it goes home. If by outside you mean the latter, then that is just ridiculous. This is America. You don't have to join a club to exercise your Constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

As far as your inference to retirement("...have to show for 40 years of work"), in my opinion that is one of the things that is wrong in America today. Somewhere over the last 50 years it became a given that someone else, the government, employer, etc. should be responsible for taking care of everyone for the rest of their lives. People were fed the mindset that a worker should just work their job and spend every dime they made as well as every dime they could borrow. Right now our government is working on legislation to spend another trillion of the taxpayer's dollars to buy up failed mortgages. When they retire, someone else pays the freight and foots the bill for the funeral. Sorry, I wasn't raised that way. I was brought up to pay my bills, don't buy it if I can't afford it and save for my own retirement. My dad lived to be 84 and never even filed for Social Security. He said it was for the less-fortunate. When an employer offers a funded retirement plan that is a fringe benefit. Not a Constitutional right everyone is entitled to. Given the choice between a $35 per hr job with retirement and a $40per hr job without and I'd take the $40 deal every time. I don't want/need Big Brother to "take care of me". No thanks. And I think that sums up the basic difference between you and I. You are happy with your choice and to you I say good luck and all the best. But your response to me and others who don't choose your path is to disrespect and exclude us as a whole.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Join the Union , get your card, be a man, stop cheating others, blah blah blah!

This is my take and I know you guys will love this!

The union is good I guess I am sure it has it's benefits and I am sure it has it's cons.You know I was born in America which gives me the right to work where ever I want and do what ever I want. 

Brianjohn seems to know from reading his posts it kinda encourages me to join!

But when I read others I get discouraged to join because I always thought the union was there to protect the worker and an organization that promotes worker rights should not be so hard to join!

It seems that IBEW is a private organization that only certain types are allowed to join, and if your not a part of it then your the enemy!

I mean really who is the IBEW really protecting? I think they protect the current members only for a short while and then they hire on a new breed of apprentices.

IF the IBEW was so great you should be able to go to any local any day of the week and join the brotherhood but that's not the case you have to wait until there accepting applications what kind of **** is that, your there to protect me but I have to wait to be accepted, when you need me!

Based on the rules and regulations to join the Union now a days I'd have to say the Union is Out of Control!


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

cal, you sure are beating you're head against a wall on this one.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Paul There is plenty of room on this wall for your head to!


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

no thanks! got too many knots on this old punkin. i go around the " wall " now. or just find a door, climb in thru a window, get a ladder,......


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

:laughing:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Jeeze I have to win all the points....I mean 2 out of 3 give me a break. You have won no points on my scorecard, instead of defending your position you resort to personal insults. I on the other hand have addressed you with respect, I claim victory on those points
> .
> Look we are never going to agree on this issue. I can only tell you that you and those that SEEM to have the attitude YOU have are doing the union organizing movement no good IMO. Additionally the open shop perspective of the union is crap because of attitudes that some lay out there (STRICTLY what I can tell from your post you seem to be the leader of handing the public a bad perspective of unions)
> 
> How man have you organized, how many apprentices have you directly brought in to the union. And your family and close friends do not count. I try to take a positive view of the union out to men in the field, schools and to young men I meet in what I consider dead end jobs. I present a positive attitude. You seem to show everything that all open shop men and those that know nothing of the union hate.


 I have never taken part in any union organizing activity, I dont't see how that is relevant to this debate. My sons worked with me as summer helpers, two of them went on to become Electrical engineers, three others are JWs in local 134, I don't think that could be considered organizing. I will conclude by remarking that these workers knew exactly what they were doing when they accepted a job in downtown Chicago. The BA did treat them within invitation to join the union,Then he used no intimidation, only the possibility of a legal picket line to accomplish his goal successfully BillW


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Argument what argument?

My point was, I think existing union members would do themselves, other members, the local, the IBEW and all unions a favor if the country at large had a better feeling/impressions regarding unions in particular ours.

Ask most non union workers (the majority of Americans) and they have a very negative opinion of the union and union workers in general. Look here a open shop guy is DOING LEGTIMATE work, LEGALLY and he is attacked as being equivalent to an illegal alien.

If instead they worked with them, helped them (not trash their jobs) ETC. the public in general might hold us in a higher regard. This is not a point to argue this is fact.

Myself I have tried to sway open shop members to join, gone to high schools to find members, Several of the open shop men I hired stayed with me several years before taking a better job making in excess of 125,000.00. 

I try to help people and make sure they have a good job. Do you think there are major benefits for me being a union contractor?

Lastly I will add this and no slights are meant unless this fits you and only you will know.

The majority of the dyed in the wool, lets knock down the open shop men, pickett that job, have a sit down, bring them up on charges workers are USUALLY the laziest, most worthless, hacks I've had the displeasure to meet. The good electricians are doing their job and moving on while the slackers bitch.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

brian john said:


> Lastly I will add this and no slights are meant unless this fits you and only you will know.
> 
> The majority of the dyed in the wool, lets knock down the open shop men, pickett that job, have a sit down, bring them up on charges workers are USUALLY the laziest, most worthless, hacks I've had the displeasure to meet. The good electricians are doing their job and moving on while the slackers bitch.


I agree, the loudest are usually the ones doing the least work. In these times keep your head down and be productive


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I have never taken part in I will conclude by remarking that these workers knew exactly what they were doing when they accepted a job in downtown Chicago. The BA did treat them within invitation to join the union,Then he used no intimidation, only the possibility of a legal picket line to accomplish his goal successfully BillW


Not true it was not an invitation , It was a why are you not union we have the best package around! 

Also the BA took down my bosses License Plate number for what reason , I mean really why the hell does the BA need to take down our License plate Numbers , and what are they gonna do with that information? 

What authority was given to the union where they can take down plate numbers. Its almost like there is an ulterior motive there!

No threat of a picket line on job site , just a lot of down grading of our work because you know the union is the only ones that really know what there doing!!!

Illegal aliens give me a break!!

Yes we knew exactly what we were getting into working down town but who says you have to be union to work downtown? ( that was the original question) There was two union contractors on the site plumbers and hvac !
The rest were non union we only left do to the possibility of stolen materials and tools, violence, damage to our vehicles "especially since they have our plate #'s" and a picket line possibility , YOU KNOW YOU UNION GUYS ARE NOT TO BUSY RIGHT NOW, LETS GO TAKE SOME WORK AND SHOW THEM A LESSON.... 

If you " All American Red Neck type" union guys want to deny these things from actually happening then obviously have been brain washed. I personally have had broken windshields on sites tools stolen, my cousin has lots of problems with the union they go in rough houses complete come back the next day and all there pipework is laying in a pile outside. 

That is exactly the side of the union that I don't want any part of! For what good pay and a pension who cares about those things if you have to steal work from others and threatened there livelihood!! 

Now I am sure there is some real good companies out there that are union and live up to higher standards then this, And I am sure there are some members out there that union life has been good to them without the use of these measures!!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

calimurray said:


> Join the Union , get your card, be a man, stop cheating others, blah blah blah!
> 
> This is my take and I know you guys will love this!
> 
> ...


Apprenticeship applications are only open certain times of the year.
Benefits are negotiated along with pay and are part of the members compensation. NOT a handout from some kind stranger!!
IBEW locals are required to take in anyone working in the trade. Period.
If it takes X amount of dollars to live and work in a city, and someone comes from outside and works cheaper and goes home, who benefits?

The same argument made by anti-illegal immigrant folks!


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Apprenticeship applications are only open certain times of the year.
> Benefits are negotiated along with pay and are part of the members compensation. NOT a handout from some kind stranger!!
> IBEW locals are required to take in anyone working in the trade. Period.
> If it takes X amount of dollars to live and work in a city, and someone comes from outside and works cheaper and goes home, who benefits?
> ...


 Local 134 covers all of cook county and thats where I do most of my work so what you are saying is I cant work in any city cause the union covers them all? Or I am depriving local residents of work in there own cities?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

The union model works perfectly when equal importance is placed upon and equal energy is applied to the two main purposes of a labor union:

1-Hold the company accountable for providing a safe and fair work environment and adherence to the terms of the current labor agreement.
2-Hold it's rank and file membership accountable for providing 8 hours of quality, productive, and responsible work for 8 hours pay and benefits.

How often does this actually happen?


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## garvin (Mar 29, 2009)

Hey Calimurry!!!! I read in one of your posts that you make about 30$/hr to work in the Cook county area as an electrician.

Bending 1/2 Emt is easy, pulling those ity-bity #12 wires isn't all that hard. 

Why do you demand that your boss pays you 30$/hr?

You should be happy you have a job right now, times are tuff.

Why don't you charge your boss 20$/hr? 

Could you run work in Cook county 20$/hr Calimurry? 

Sure you could. You could make it on 15$/hr, you might need to get a roomate to help with your rent. Public transportation is good in Cook county. You could run work for 15$/hr and take the bus to work, you'd have cheep rent because you could get 3 or 4 roommates.

You help out your boss, because it's not easy to bid all those jobs, get you your check, front money for electrical jobs. It would be easier for your boss if you ran work for 15$/hr and took the bus to work.

Why don't you live like that? It would be a lot easier on your poor old boss.


40 year old man with roommates, that’s "country liven in the city BOY!!!" you got to love it. Only in America. Bunch of grown men sharing the same refrigerator in a one bathroom apartment. Ya baby!!! Sign me up, that how I wanta do it!!!:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

garvin said:


> Hey Calimurry!!!! I read in one of your posts that you make about 30$/hr to work in the Cook county area as an electrician.
> 
> Bending 1/2 Emt is easy, pulling those ity-bity #12 wires isn't all that hard.
> 
> ...


You were trying to make a point here?


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## garvin (Mar 29, 2009)

Uh, no why do say that?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Garvin, that's a hell of a first post. 

Did you join up just to stir the sh*t?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

garvin said:


> Hey Calimurry!!!! I read in one of your posts that you make about 30$/hr to work in the Cook county area as an electrician.
> 
> Bending 1/2 Emt is easy, pulling those ity-bity #12 wires isn't all that hard.
> 
> ...


 
garvin I think your a JOKE


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

garvin said:


> Uh, no why do say that?


 
Don't play stupid.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

try it again garvin.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

paul d. said:


> try it again garvin.


 This time come in softly.:thumbsup:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

:thumbup:Welcome to the forum Garvin, BillW


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

william1978 said:


> This time come in softly.:thumbsup:


 
Two hurricanes in a row how about some mild weather.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

garvin said:


> Hey Calimurry!!!! I read in one of your posts that you make about 30$/hr to work in the Cook county area as an electrician.
> 
> Bending 1/2 Emt is easy, pulling those ity-bity #12 wires isn't all that hard.
> 
> ...



I have pulled #10 's once or twice there pretty big!!!!!

One day I will push a hot dog cart around and sell dogs to the white collars......


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Apprenticeship applications are only open certain times of the year.
> Benefits are negotiated along with pay and are part of the members compensation. NOT a handout from some kind stranger!!
> IBEW locals are required to take in anyone working in the trade. Period.
> If it takes X amount of dollars to live and work in a city, and someone comes from outside and works cheaper and goes home, who benefits?
> ...


well, that might be how the locals work down in florida...but here in NY/NJ, try getting an apprenticeship without a father/uncle/brother pulling strings...

so you are gonna stick with that ridiculous illegal immigrant argument, huh?

I would argue that the IBEW has become much like organized crime...you know, the illegal mafia...

there, that's as good as your argument...


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Better watch that hotdog cart. That belongs to the UFCW in Chicago. 

Charlie


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Better watch that hotdog cart. That belongs to the UFCW in Chicago.
> 
> Charlie


Oh no way not in Chicago , in California where its warmer!


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Cant say I blame you. Bet you the scenery is prettier also.


Charlie


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

To the two Florida brothers, what is the union's market share there? How is it living in a right to work state after so many years in a state and city ran by unions? Do you feel guilty not giving back to your city and that your pension from there is more than the brother working in Florida for peanuts? Hopefully the economy will turn around soon and remaining 23 states will not become right to work states such as Florida.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> To the two Florida brothers, what is the union's market share there? How is it living in a right to work state after so many years in a state and city ran by unions? Do you feel guilty not giving back to your city and that your pension from there is more than the brother working in Florida for peanuts? Hopefully the economy will turn around soon and remaining 23 states will not become right to work states such as Florida.


I am here for the sunshine, not the work, so the percentage of work done union does not really affect me. I pity any construction workers down here in the summer. The Federally funded jobs like the powerhouse work or the airport and bridges and such are done union. Their packsges are comparable to anywhere. My contributions to the pension funds over 40 years in Chicago were fruitful investments. I get one pension from Local 134 and two others from the international which is added to my Social Security benefits.Not forgetting my medical, dental and optical coverage.BillW


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> BillW


You're not the guy with all the friends, are you? 

DAMN man you are popular! :thumbsup:


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

<DIV align=center>
Union Construction Electricians
IL, Chicago LU 134 
Jurisdiction: Inside 

Posted: March 30, 2009



Journeyman Scale: $ 39.40 
Health & Welfare: 10.83 
Pension: 4.91 
Annuity: 2.65 
Vacation: 0 
Working Assessments: 0 


Union Construction Electricians


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

FL, Miami LU 349 
Jurisdiction: Inside 
Posted: March 30, 2009
Journeyman Scale: $ 26.15 

Health & Welfare: 5.15 
Pension: 8 % = $2.09
Annuity: 0
Vacation: 0
Working Assessments: 3


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

$58 vs $33.....rlc, you are going to have to stop letting facts get in the way of good opinions...and don't fret, he gots his...


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

are you implying he should feel bad for moving to a warmer climate after busting his hump for 40 years...?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

steve134 said:


> are you implying he should feel bad for moving to a warmer climate after busting his hump for 40 years...?


Not at all but, brotherhood doesn't end with retirement. Why are you his kid?:blink:


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

yes i'm his kid, he got me backdoored in after he won a card game in an italian restaurant in a poorly lit backroom filled with smoke while jimmy hoffa was being buried in concrete, by of course union concrete finishers.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

steve134 said:


> yes i'm his kid, he got me backdoored in after he won a card game in an italian restaurant in a poorly lit backroom filled with smoke while jimmy hoffa was being buried in concrete, by of course union concrete finishers.


:thumbup::laughing::jester:

Now that is outstanding internet humor:thumbsup: Only if MCShunk could pull that off, maybe you could teach him how!


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

garvin said:


> Bending 1/2 Emt is easy, pulling those ity-bity #12 wires isn't all that hard.
> 
> !:laughing:



It's just about as has hard as using a hydraulic bender to bend your pipe, How hard is that.

And just as easy to hook up 4 -500's to rope and use a tugger to pull your wires that isn't that hard either.

:no:


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## garvin (Mar 29, 2009)

Calimurry, your right!! The work is not all that hard. Just because it’s not physically demanding does not mean that you should do it on the cheep.

Your helping out your boss, but it’s not about your boss Calimurry. At the end of the day it’s all about YOU buddy. It’s all about your family and your kids. It’s all about making enough money to live comfortably and being able to have extra money to educate your kids so they have it better than you. Then when you get older you’ll need some money to retire on. Think about it. Right now your making your boss a ton of cash because nobody is holding your boss’s feet to the fire and making him pay you what you NEED to live.

Right now your boss is operating un-checked, and he is playing YOU buddy.

I’d write more, but Bar Lewy (spelling?) is now doing 50% off on Mondays. That’s 50% off of the entire bill drinks and dinner. So what did I do? I rung up a ~150$ bar tab the waiter then knocked the bill in half so it was 75 bucks. Then cuz I was drunk I gave him a 60 dollar tip. So I guess I saved 15 bucks……….or I’m just a sucker after I had way on many drinks. Now I’m going on vacation……I have a ruff life. Because I can afford it


Later Calimurry!!!!!!!!!!


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

garvin said:


> Calimurry, your right!! The work is not all that hard. Just because it’s not physically demanding does not mean that you should do it on the cheep.
> 
> Your helping out your boss, but it’s not about your boss Calimurry. At the end of the day it’s all about YOU buddy. It’s all about your family and your kids. It’s all about making enough money to live comfortably and being able to have extra money to educate your kids so they have it better than you. Then when you get older you’ll need some money to retire on. Think about it. Right now your making your boss a ton of cash because nobody is holding your boss’s feet to the fire and making him pay you what you NEED to live.
> 
> ...


I don't give a **** what you think you NEED. That's what's wrong with this country, we feel entitled, to other peoples things. You want more? You need more? Go out and risk everything you own, everyday to earn it. But don't think for one ****ing second that anyone owes you a goddamn thing. No wonder this country is in the ****ter.


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## garvin (Mar 29, 2009)

By DEBORAH SEWARD, Associated Press Writer Deborah Seward, Associated Press Writer – 2 mins ago
PARIS – Angry French workers facing layoffs at a Caterpillar factory briefly detained four of their bosses Tuesday at the U.S. manufacturer's plant in the Alps to protest job cuts, a regional official said.
It is the third time in the past few weeks that French workers have seized their bosses to protest job losses stemming from the global economic crisis.
Last week, workers at a 3M plant south of Paris held the company boss for two days, and earlier this month workers at a Sony plant held a similar protest.

I just might start calling American Fries "French Fries" again...........NA:laughing:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> Not at all but, brotherhood doesn't end with retirement. Why are you his kid?:blink:


 Please, Please! Steve sounds as though he would be a son to be proud of. But I have eight sons already and it gets crowded at the table! BillW


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

garvin said:


> By DEBORAH SEWARD, Associated Press Writer Deborah Seward, Associated Press Writer – 2 mins ago
> PARIS – Angry French workers facing layoffs at a Caterpillar factory briefly detained four of their bosses Tuesday at the U.S. manufacturer's plant in the Alps to protest job cuts, a regional official said.
> It is the third time in the past few weeks that French workers have seized their bosses to protest job losses stemming from the global economic crisis.
> Last week, workers at a 3M plant south of Paris held the company boss for two days, and earlier this month workers at a Sony plant held a similar protest.
> ...


Why not be intellectually honest, and call them "Marxist Fries"?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

My brother-in-law works in France and one they have a short work week, CANNOT work OT against the law (so he tells me) they have labor enforcers that look for folks working OT.

In addition France has as bad a immigration issue as we have.



> our helping out your boss, but it’s not about your boss Calimurry. At the end of the day it’s all about YOU buddy. It’s all about your family and your kids. It’s all about making enough money to live comfortably and being able to have extra money to educate your kids so they have it better than you. Then when you get older you’ll need some money to retire on. Think about it. Right now your making your boss a ton of cash because nobody is holding your boss’s feet to the fire and making him pay you what you NEED to live.
> 
> Right now your boss is operating un-checked, and he is playing YOU buddy.


Operating unchecked DOES HE PAY TAXES, (DAMN SITE MORE THAN YOU) Is he licensed. What about OSHA and his insurance company. Who is suppose to check on him YOU.

Were to heck were you when (my story not his but I am sure it is similar) When I had no insurance and a pregant wife, When I had no paycheck for weeks at a time, when my men drove a better company truck that I did, when they recieved pay and bonuses and I went without at Christmas, when they made more per year than I did, When I worked 80-120 hours a week. Where were you last year when I paid over 1/2 million in taxes and $2000,000.00 in health insurance. Were you there when I wasted a WEEK with the IRS audit and they blessed my operation (but cost me a fortune). Where you when I had to sit and listen to grown men whine about working with each other. When the guy wrecked his truck DRUNK, when the guy was sick for 7 weeks and I paid him, when the guy went to the nut hut for 2 months and I paid him.

BIG crooked unchecked bosses. Try it, for a month and you'd sing another tune.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Operating unchecked DOES HE PAY TAXES, (DAMN SITE MORE THAN YOU) Is he licensed. What about OSHA and his insurance company. Who is suppose to check on him YOU.

Were to heck were you when (my story not his but I am sure it is similar) When I had no insurance and a pregnant wife, When I had no paycheck for weeks at a time, when my men drove a better company truck that I did, when they recieved pay and bonuses and I went without at Christmas, when they made more per year than I did, When I worked 80-120 hours a week. Where were you last year when I paid over 1/2 million in taxes and $2000,000.00 in health insurance. Were you there when I wasted a WEEK with the IRS audit and they blessed my operation (but cost me a fortune). Where you when I had to sit and listen to grown men whine about working with each other. When the guy wrecked his truck DRUNK, when the guy was sick for 7 weeks and I paid him, when the guy went to the nut hut for 2 months and I paid him.

BIG crooked unchecked bosses. Try it, for a month and you'd sing another tune.

I guarantee I can do you job and most likely smoke you in the ground, BET you can't come close to doing mine


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I guess if you have been labor all your working life and considered your life to be a labor (miserable unhappy) then it is hard to understand what it takes to operate, run and make a business successful. There has been discussion here why union labor when deciding to start a business does so by going non-union. Answer, to help start off alone as a one man shop to learn the learning curve and see if they can make it. Why non-union start ups choose union answer, available work force for larger jobs, most starting out have learned from previous boss's what it takes to run a business. Even with the agreement between the union labor and union contractors there are problems by each using the agreement to settle problems. Brothers who feel they have been wronged say F#&* the contractor and that seems to roll to all contractors. Contractors that have been slow F#&*ed by labor say F#&* the labor and then seems to roll to all union labor. Where does it end? If a guy wants to get a head maybe be a foreman, general foreman or a super then gets tagged as a company man/shoppe whatever. It is a two way street for business and labor. Work to be better provide better service and make money for everyone concerned. Show businesses that the union labor and contractors provide the best service. There will always be a need for small outfits providing services for small business and residential work.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Where were you last year when I paid over 1/2 million in taxes and $2000,000.00 in health insurance.


Not trying to call you out Brian, but since you are a Local #26 what are you doing paying $2,000,000 in health insurance? Or are you referring to how you are the one responsible for taking it out of their checks and sending it in to the H&W?


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

> garvin Calimurry, your right!! The work is not all that hard. Just because it’s not physically demanding does not mean that you should do it on the cheep.
> 
> Your helping out your boss, but it’s not about your boss Calimurry. At the end of the day it’s all about YOU buddy. It’s all about your family and your kids. It’s all about making enough money to live comfortably and being able to have extra money to educate your kids so they have it better than you. Then when you get older you’ll need some money to retire on. Think about it. Right now your making your boss a ton of cash because nobody is holding your boss’s feet to the fire and making him pay you what you NEED to live.
> 
> ...


I guess for any normal employee the thinking is normal. But for me i don't necessarily think its all about me anymore. I used to be a contractor myself so coming back as a regular employee I don't think Like I used to cause I know what it's like on both sides of the fence. 

When I was a contractor I learned the business side of this trade and what it takes to be more cost effective, management, osha , had to pay insurances and bonds so I learned what it takes to be in business. You say its all about me and it's not about my boss well I'd say its a little bit of both If the company I work for is not making money , then I am not making money either.. thats my motto.... 
I believe as an employee it is my responsibility to make sure the company makes money , If I don''t do my part then were losing money both of us!.
I am not one to believe that my employer owes me anything but a honest days work! I don't believe I should depend on my employers to provide me with benefits I 'd like to be in control of them myself.

I 've always heard that union and non union contractors all have the same things they got there toys, and there big homes, boats, whatever they deserve it. It is not always so easy to be a contractor.


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## pzpoy (Jun 2, 2008)

steelersman said:


> Not trying to call you out Brian, but since you are a Local #26 what are you doing paying $2,000,000 in health insurance? Or are you referring to how you are the one responsible for taking it out of their checks and sending it in to the H&W?


http://www.ibewlocal26.org/health.cfm - read the first few sentences. you get your wage in pocket, and in addition to that they pay h&w 4.75 an hour for the workers


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Not trying to call you out Brian, but since you are a Local #26 what are you doing paying $2,000,000 in health insurance? Or are you referring to how you are the one responsible for taking it out of their checks and sending it in to the H&W?


WOW! That is like having 210.5 employees working full time for 2000 hours a year.:001_huh:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Not trying to call you out Brian, but since you are a Local #26 what are you doing paying $2,000,000 in health insurance? Or are you referring to how you are the one responsible for taking it out of their checks and sending it in to the H&W?



If I was open shop my wages would be less and my health insurance would be WAY less. It may be you package but the company pays it with a total package. You wages do not go down when insurance goes up.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

pzpoy said:


> http://www.ibewlocal26.org/health.cfm - read the first few sentences. you get your wage in pocket, and in addition to that they pay h&w 4.75 an hour for the workers


Yeah like I said.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Yeah like I said.


Health insurance premiums don't come out of the employee's check, the employer pays it in addition to hourly wages and other benefits.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

amptech said:


> Health insurance premiums don't come out of the employee's check, the employer pays it in addition to hourly wages and other benefits.


yeah, like I said. It's included in our total benefits package.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

steelersman said:


> yeah, like I said. It's included in our total benefits package.


so, you view it as your money that the contractor collects from you and sends to the insurance company....



amptech said:


> Health insurance premiums don't come out of the employee's check, the employer pays it in addition to hourly wages and other benefits.


you view it as additional cost to the contractor, above and beyond the wages paid to the employee...

who's right?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

oldman said:


> so, you view it as your money that the contractor collects from you and sends to the insurance company....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm right. If it was "taken" out of your check you would be paying taxes on the amount designated for your health insurance. It would count towards your gross income.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

amptech said:


> I'm right. If it was "taken" out of your check you would be paying taxes on the amount designated for your health insurance. It would count towards your gross income.


Would ya just stop with the facts? We only want opinions around here, not facts.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

oldman said:


> so, you view it as your money that the contractor collects from you and sends to the insurance company....


It's not our money, the employer is required to take out $x/hour and send to the H&W. We as employees cannot elect to NOT have insurance coverage in lieu of being paid the $x/hour rate. It's part of the toatal package which is an hourly amount. For us it's something like $53/hour. Out of that we get paid $36.something/hour and there's of course other things such as annuities, retirement, insurance, apprenticeship yada yada yada.





oldman said:


> you view it as additional cost to the contractor, above and beyond the wages paid to the employee...who's right?


I'd say we both are, but in different ways. We were looking at the same thing 2 different ways.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> It's not our money, the employer is required to take out $x/hour and send to the H&W. We as employees cannot elect to NOT have insurance coverage in lieu of being paid the $x/hour rate. It's part of the toatal package which is an hourly amount. For us it's something like $53/hour. Out of that we get paid $36.something/hour and there's of course other things such as annuities, retirement, insurance, apprenticeship yada yada yada.Quote
> As a matter of fact the government is currently considering levying income tax on that money since it is clearly part of the employee's remuneration, BillW.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The H&W is part of an employees total package and if you work open shop on a Davis Bacon project your wages are the hourly plus this H&W money. BUT my point was if I was an open shop I would pay less per hour for H&W.

Our H&W is the same for all men single no kids or married 11 kids, plus it is an excellent program. Most open shops that I know of pay less per hour and have their H&W is not nearly as comprehensive as the union men.

More money in my pocket. AND THERE AIN'T NOTHING WRONG IN THAT. But Big "O" wants that now.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

here's a good video/documentary. Seriously. It's not a joke or a gag or something dirty. I won't do that again. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

steelersman said:


> here's a good video/documentary. Seriously. It's not a joke or a gag or something dirty. I won't do that again. Here it is:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw


 
I watched all 1:53:40 that is scary to think they are really doing that.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> I watched all 1:53:40 that is scary to think they are really doing that.


Yep. The Federal Reserve is a private bank and isn't subject to any laws. Interesting stuff.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

steelersman said:


> Yep. The Federal Reserve is a private bank and isn't subject to any laws. Interesting stuff.


 
I would hate to know all the stuff that goes on with the Government behind the scenes.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> Were to heck were you when (my story not his but I am sure it is similar) When I had no insurance and a pregnant wife, When I had no paycheck for weeks at a time, when my men drove a better company truck that I did, when they recieved pay and bonuses and I went without at Christmas, when they made more per year than I did, When I worked 80-120 hours a week.
> 
> 
> *I know that it does take a lot of sacrifice to build a nice business. I'm sure that your guys didn't have a clue about what you were going through.*
> ...


*I'm sure that you have built great business and have a top notch crew with an excellent reputation with the kind of specialty work that you do.*


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

steelersman said:


> It's not our money, the employer is required to take out $x/hour and send to the H&W. We as employees cannot elect to NOT have insurance coverage in lieu of being paid the $x/hour rate. It's part of the toatal package which is an hourly amount. For us it's something like $53/hour. Out of that we get paid $36.something/hour and there's of course other things such as annuities, retirement, insurance, apprenticeship yada yada yada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't care how you want to "look at it", the employer is not "taking it out of your check". It never was on your check or you would be paying with -holding taxes on the amount and you are not. It is a fringe benefit that was bargained for it the labor agreement. It isn't a Federal law requiring the employer to pay for insurance, yet.
I once worked for a company who insisted on counting the 1/2 of SS the employer pays for an employee as a fringe benefit. If it is required by law, I don't see how you could count it as a fringe benefit. But if it is not required by law and you don't pay State, Federal or SS tax on the amount then it is purely a benefit. I hope they never start levying taxes on the amount contributed by an employer for health insurance and retirement.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

amptech said:


> I don't care how you want to "look at it", the employer is not "taking it out of your check". It never was on your check or you would be paying with -holding taxes on the amount and you are not. It is a fringe benefit that was bargained for it the labor agreement. It isn't a Federal law requiring the employer to pay for insurance, yet.
> I once worked for a company who insisted on counting the 1/2 of SS the employer pays for an employee as a fringe benefit. If it is required by law, I don't see how you could count it as a fringe benefit. But if it is not required by law and you don't pay State, Federal or SS tax on the amount then it is purely a benefit. *I hope they never start levying taxes on the amount contributed by an employer for health insurance and retirement*.


Oh it's coming


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

amptech said:


> I hope they never start levying taxes on the amount contributed by an employer for health insurance and retirement.


 
It is coming.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> *I'm sure that you have built great business and have a top notch crew with an excellent reputation with the kind of specialty work that you do.*


 
I appreciate the kind words, I do try. I worked for a lot of hard asses coming up and when I was an apprentice, I SWORE I'd never treat apprentices like dirt and I haven't. When I was an employee I tried to do the best for myself and the owner and swore I would do things different if I was ever an owner. I try but at times it is tough.

The number one reason I am union is many customers required it years ago when I started and it made sleeping easier at night knowing my employees had top notch pay and benefits. This includes the non-union office personnel.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

brian john said:


> The number one reason I am union is many customers required it years ago when I started and it made sleeping easier at night knowing my employees had top notch pay and benefits. This includes the non-union office personnel.


labor unions would not have a snowballs' chance in hell if you were the rule,
rather than the exception in employers. you aren't. i pay attention when you
post. you appear ethical, and smart, and have succeeded in a difficult niche.

in the mid fifties, my dad owned the largest steel fabrication plant in canada,
riding high on the canadian oil boom. he was non union. the unions in question
vilified him horribly. i've still got the newspaper slurs. why did they hate him
so?

simple.

he paid higher than union scale and benefits. he hired who he wanted, and 
fired the people who didn't work. everyone worked, everyone made very good
money, everyone went to the bank.

except the people who couldn't cut it without feeding off a unions productive
members, 'cause they were either stupid, or lazy, or both.

seeing as everyone has an opinion about this, here's mine.... the "non union"
people who are causing most of the problems with organized labor aren't the
people who haven't signed a working agreement... the problem is the lazy
worthless POS on your crew, doing 2 hours work a day, while every one else
on the crew carries him.

i'm not talking about the old guy who's tired, and still has to work. he'll 
probably produce more than the 25 year old slacker who spends his day
on the cellphone, texting.

and organized labor, with it's arrogant sense of entitlement, and overbearing
heavy handed dealing with everyone and everything it comes into contact 
with, is it's own worst enemy.

and before all you good brothers tell me i don't know what i'm talking about,
i've had a current, dues paid up IBEW membership since 1976. i still do. and i
also have a clogged bull**** filter, especially after reading 9 pages of this
stuff.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

FulThrotl said:


> labor unions would not have a snowballs' chance in hell if you were the rule,
> rather than the exception in employers. you aren't. i pay attention when you
> post. you appear ethical, and smart, and have succeeded in a difficult niche.
> 
> ...


I cant speak for the actions of a few in the great white North 25 to 50 years ago but I can say for sure that the IBEW that I know, will not tolerate slothful workers or "protect" anyone. 
The employers have many tools today to maintain a productive workforce and either they do or they cannot compete.
We are now seeing more and more "organized" electricians on jobs these days. Yes they sometimes do not have the skills that you would expect from people that have been in the trade for 10 or 20 years but they are on the job and working as hard as the next guy and hopefully picking up skills that were not taught through formal training and diversified experience.
On the other hand some guys take a call out to a job and get turned around "without cause" no questions asked.
You will find more and more employers like Brian John that have spent many years building a team and know that his ethics are embedded in his guys and reflected onto the customer. They work hard, get dirty and go home tired just like the guys I work with. If they don't ,they just go home.
Its a different world out there now.:thumbsup:


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Hey we went back to that job downtown to drop off the guts to the panels, and the new UNION electrical contractor that was there said that we did a great job. And he was happy that we did not do cheap, hack job that he would have to fix.

"1" up for us a bunch cheap non union guys!:thumbup:

Actually we put more money into our jobs then we have to, we used zinc compression fittings which conduct electricity better then steel. Which are more expensive then those cheap steel connectors the others used.


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## Theoo7 (May 4, 2009)

*Moving to Chicago*

I'm a journeyman, 8 years certified. I'm moving from FL to Chicago. I know the area is heavily unionized. How do I go about getting into the Local 134?


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Theoo7 said:


> I'm a journeyman, 8 years certified. I'm moving from FL to Chicago. I know the area is heavily unionized. How do I go about getting into the Local 134?


The phone for L.U. 134 is (312) 454-1340. Things are slow in Chicago , 1800 men are on the bench, If you are considering an apprenticeship ask them to notify you of the next registration date. good luck, BillW.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

calimurray said:


> Actually we put more money into our jobs then we have to, we used zinc compression fittings which conduct electricity better then steel. Which are more expensive then those cheap steel connectors the others used.


 
Actually, UL Listed, zinc or steel conduit fittings meet the same UL514B specifications - including current carrying capability. The real benefits of quality Zinc fittings over their steel counterparts are: 1) Dimensional Consistency, 2) Corrosion Resistance and 3) Inherent Functionality Improvements. 

Just like a lot of garbage steel fittings out there, there are also a few manufacturers of crappy zinc fittings. The real change to steel came back in 2005 when zinc prices went through the roof due to raw material speculation. Now that the prices have returned to a more 'normal level', quality zinc fittings are preferred by more electricans around the country.:thumbup:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Actually, UL Listed, zinc or steel conduit fittings meet the same UL514B specifications - including current carrying capability. The real benefits of quality Zinc fittings over their steel counterparts are: 1) Dimensional Consistency, 2) Corrosion Resistance and 3) Inherent Functionality Improvements.
> 
> Just like a lot of garbage steel fittings out there, there are also a few manufacturers of crappy zinc fittings. The real change to steel came back in 2005 when zinc prices went through the roof due to raw material speculation. Now that the prices have returned to a more 'normal level', quality zinc fittings are preferred by more electricans around the country.:thumbup:


yet every spec book out there calls for steel:blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

oldman said:


> yet every spec book out there calls for steel:blink:



Aren't most commercial/industrial job spec written by engineers who have never worked a day in the trade in their lives?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Aren't most commercial/industrial job spec written by engineers who have never worked a day in the trade in their lives?


what's your point? spec's spec...good, bad, indifferent...you can submit an alternate, but why?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

oldman said:


> what's your point?


Nevermind.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Nevermind.


:laughing:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I always avoid zinc because they are physically weak. They do make tear outs easy, just gab the conduit and snap the fittings.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I would choose steel fittings any time I have a choice. I have always thought of those zinc die cast fittings a pot metal junk. They break all of the time. 
I have read studies that show that the fitting to survive best during the earthquake in the SF area a few years ago were steel setscrew fittings.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I would choose steel fittings any time I have a choice. I have always thought of those zinc die cast fittings a pot metal junk. They break all of the time.
> I have read studies that show that the fitting to survive best during the earthquake in the SF area a few years ago were steel setscrew fittings.


Just like anything else, no all like product is of the same quality. I have seen steel fittings that are absolute junk because the locknut threads are cut too big, or the setscrew is too soft, or the plating is peeling off, or worse yet - you can't slide them on the conduit without even the setscrew installed. 

When made properly, and with the right alloy, zinc fittings will outperform steel in three areas - dimensional consistency, corrosion resistance, and functionality. So what if steel has a higher tensile strength than the best die cast zinc alloy. So does titanium. Does that mean that titanium fittings would be better for the application? Would you pay 110% more for a titanium fitting? Quality versions of both steel and zinc fittings pass the same specification - UL514B. Period. 

Many engineers working on government jobs are under the impression that steel is the only fitting material allowed under the governing Federal Specifications. This is patently false. Fed spec. A-A-50553 specifically allows all fitting materials allowed in UL514B, including Zinc. 

Unfortunately, there have been so many poor quality steel and zinc fittings dumped on the market in the last 5 years (due to all of the outsourcing and lack of quality control), that all brands/types tend to 'blend together' at the field level - meaning electricians think they are all mostly the same.

However, there are higher quality versions of both types out there, but they might cost a bit more. This is why many electricians don't get to see/use them - because the bean counters at the supply houses or EC's won't spend marginally more for a much higher quality fitting. Most of the time, the purchasing guys only go by price (and the free hat).

In Chicago, Regal had a great following - and they made a high quality, zinc fitting - not "pot metal" junk.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Union v.s. Open - Shop discussions are always entertaining!

:laughing:


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

calimurray said:


> I was working today and the Local 134 BA came to our job site today and asked a bunch of questions. Needless to say we had to pull off the job to avoid the strike.
> 
> Although I don't really mind that we cant return to the job it was a hassle driving downtown and paying for parking and traffic sucked also .
> 
> But for all you non union guys did you ever notice a BA is like a car salesmen they just never shut up. I went round and round with the guy, i just wanted to be left alone, and this guy kept trying to sell me the union!He kept asking why I haven't joined the brotherhood, and my answer was because you don't have any work he did not have an answer for me after that.All this guy could do is talk up the union and the turns around and talks [email protected]#t about our work. I know some lucky contractor will finish the job and utilize the work that we had done up to this point.





Frasbee said:


> I'm confused, how can they shut you down?
> 
> I clearly don't know enough about the Union.





calimurray said:


> Technically they did not literally kick us off the job, but the GC was told by the hotel that we were working at they did not want the union picketing the job. So to avoid the picket line we simply pulled off the job. This was something I expected to happen sooner or later.


I can't believe this is considered "normal" activity anywhere in the United States of America. I can't believe Americans participate in such behavior in broad daylight, and with support of the local government. How sad.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> I can't believe this is considered "normal" activity anywhere in the United States of America. I can't believe Americans participate in such behavior in broad daylight, and with support of the local government. How sad.


The weirdest part is they carry the American flag while doing these things.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> The weirdest part is they carry the American flag while doing these things.


If a business did this it would violate the Federal Law.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Just like anything else, no all like product is of the same quality. I have seen steel fittings that are absolute junk because the locknut threads are cut too big, or the setscrew is too soft, or the plating is peeling off, or worse yet - you can't slide them on the conduit without even the setscrew installed.
> 
> When made properly, and with the right alloy, zinc fittings will outperform steel in three areas - dimensional consistency, corrosion resistance, and functionality. So what if steel has a higher tensile strength than the best die cast zinc alloy. So does titanium. Does that mean that titanium fittings would be better for the application? Would you pay 110% more for a titanium fitting? Quality versions of both steel and zinc fittings pass the same specification - UL514B. Period.
> 
> ...


I used die cast for 20 years, then the price for them was all of a sudden, much more than steel. Thats when I switched and never really looked back.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think its a foregone conclusion that many northern cities are locked by union. For one thing, its much easier for the mob to control price fixing and skimming that way (it would be next to impossible to do that in a non union town). And that is generally where the violence comes from, too. The occasional cow's head on the car, horse's head in your bed, or dead rat on the front porch is really more amusing than anything else, but I do keep Betsy loaded for the idiots that think that actual physical violence is acceptable.

for those that are unsure - the dead rats that the cat brings home do not come boxed or wrapped neatly in paper.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

wildleg said:


> I think its a foregone conclusion that many northern cities are locked by union. For one thing, its much easier for the mob to control price fixing and skimming that way (it would be next to impossible to do that in a non union town). And that is generally where the violence comes from, too. The occasional cow's head on the car, horse's head in your bed, or dead rat on the front porch is really more amusing than anything else, but I do keep Betsy loaded for the idiots that think that actual physical violence is acceptable.
> 
> for those that are unsure - the dead rats that the cat brings home do not come boxed or wrapped neatly in paper.


Wildleg-Have you actually had someone put a dead rat wrapped in a box on your front porch?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Wildleg-Have you actually had someone put a dead rat wrapped in a box on your front porch?


lol not yet


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

*Quo Vadis*

The most salient thing about this interesting ( and long and convoluted) thread was that Calimurray (the original poster) was last time I read anything from him trying to gain membership in Local 134,I am trying to understand the progression of events that led here.


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

betting the correct permits were NOT aquired for that Chicago job either


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

I have been a 134 electrician for over 30 years, its NOT up to the union to find the jobs, thats up to the contractors, the union supplies the qualified, trained men, I have been laid off for 7 months, and besides the state unemployment, the local supplies us with $300 a week, all my bills get paid and the union continues our health insurance, what do the non-union guys get when they get laid off???....called foreclosure, I can retire at the age of 62 with a very comfortable pension and full health care.Sounds like the best reasons to GO UNION in my mind


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

prldrp1 said:


> what do the non-union guys get when they get laid off???....called foreclosure


I guess the concept of "saving money" is not something you know about? I guess if you're one paycheck away from losing your home you're right, but people living above their means is not my problem.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I guess the concept of "saving money" is not something you know about? I guess if you're one paycheck away from losing your home you're right, but people living above their means is not my problem.


It would seem that your problem is not that simple!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> It would seem that your problem is not that simple!


You made the ridiculous assertion that if a non-union worker loses their job the is foreclosure. I said that saving money and living within your means in the solution to that problem.

But you're right though...union workers are automatically immune to foreclosure and other financial problems. :laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> You made the ridiculous assertion that if a non-union worker loses their job the is foreclosure. I said that saving money and living within your means in the solution to that problem.


 
Actually Peter, prldrp1 made that assertion.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Actually Peter, prldrp1 made that assertion.


Yup, you're right. Thanks. I didn't read far enough back into the thread. Doh!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yup, you're right. Thanks. I didn't read far enough back into the thread. Doh!


I have a very hard time (actually I don't understand at all) understanding wilson's posts. I'm thinking his verbage is too eloquent for me or something like that. I can't even tell what side of the fence he's on!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> I have a very hard time (actually I don't understand at all) understanding wilson's posts. I'm thinking his verbage is too eloquent for me or something like that. I can't even tell what side of the fence he's on!



Yeah, I don't get what he's saying either. :no:


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

i read this whole thing!
i personally havent had any bad dealings with the union, but around here there market share is virtually nonexistent. 
having read this and some of the other threads on here i wouldnt touch the union with a ten foot pole.

the way i read it because you union guys pay dues every month that gives you a right to work and support your families that i dont have. 

thats f***ing stupid.

so lets say im a guy trying to get into the union, i have to wait untill they are taking apps but in the meantime i still have to eat so i take an open shop job.
the union pickets and shuts down the job because they are mad bacause they didnt get the job.
all you have accomplished is you have taken food out of my families mouth, lost a prospective brother and made yourself look like a bunch of five year olds.
if thats brotherhood no thanks ill pass.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I have a very hard time (actually I don't understand at all) understanding wilson's posts. I'm thinking his verbage is too eloquent for me or something like that. I can't even tell what side of the fence he's on!


If I have to, I will abandon subtlety for the sake of clarity. First of all I am a 56 year member of local 134, comfortably retired on generous pensions. This puts me firmly on the side of the Union which has provided me and my family with prosperity for all of my adult life. I bear no animosity to those who have not been fortunate enough to share my good fortune. But I will oppose with all my might anyone who attempts to denigrate the Union leaders and managers who have enabled me to enjoy the fruits of my labor. You have all heard it before, " in union there is strength" . As in anything created by man there are flaws and inequities in the system, but the Union gives us the power and leverage that we need to have a fair share in the fruits of our labors. Those of us who are not union are similarly entitled to the good things in life but without the leverage of the union will in most cases never gain them. BillW


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> If I have to, I will abandon subtlety for the sake of clarity. First of all I am a 56 year member of local 134, comfortably retired on generous pensions. This puts me firmly on the side of the Union which has provided me and my family with prosperity for all of my adult life. I bear no animosity to those who have not been fortunate enough to share my good fortune. But I will oppose with all my might anyone who attempts to denigrate the Union leaders and managers who have enabled me to enjoy the fruits of my labor. You have all heard it before, " in union there is strength" . As in anything created by man there are flaws and inequities in the system, but the Union gives us the power and leverage that we need to have a fair share in the fruits of our labors. Those of us who are not union are similarly entitled to the good things in life but without the leverage of the union will in most cases never gain them. BillW


WWilson, what a nice eloquent statement! :thumbup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> But I will oppose with all my might anyone who attempts to denigrate the Union leaders and managers who have enabled me to enjoy the fruits of my labor.


So what you are saying is that all of the negative, and sometimes illegal, activities that some union members and "higher ups" have committed or engaged in are all OK as long as you and yours benefit from them?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Yes it was. Now I know what side of the fence he rests.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> So what you are saying is that all of the negative, and sometimes illegal, activities that some union members and "higher ups" have committed or engaged in are all OK as long as you and yours benefit from them?


 
Round and round we go. Where we'll stop, no one knows! :laughing:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> So what you are saying is that all of the negative, and sometimes illegal, activities that some union members and "higher ups" have committed or engaged in are all OK as long as you and yours benefit from them?


I did not say that at all, but if that is what you read in my post I can only conclude that you are hopelessly biased. BillW.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> WWilson, what a nice eloquent statement! :thumbup:


Thank you, Sir! BillW.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I did not say that at all, but if that is what you read in my post I can only conclude that you are hopelessly biased.


Oh please. And you're not.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Round and round we go. Where we'll stop, no one knows! :laughing:


I know. :thumbsup:


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