# jokers I work with



## Black Dog

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and 2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each.
> 
> All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot.
> 
> Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


You guys need some safety training and read up on how many guys die on the job doing that crap--it's no joke. does anyone on the job know how to start someones heart if needed, I'll bet not...:no:


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## Black Dog

Read this thread... *http://www.electriciantalk.com/f12/teen-helper-electrocuted-attic-88305/*


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## jeromjenkins

You are correct.


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## Vintage Sounds

There are laws that protect you. In Canada every province has a "right to refuse unsafe work" type law and some have even amended it to "obligation to refuse". In other words, at least in Alberta you are legally compelled to refuse or else you yourself can be held partially responsible for anything that results. There must be an equivalent in your state. Know your labour laws, it really pays.


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## Cow

Find a new employer, stat!

If these guys have been doing this for years, they aren't changing now. Find a place to work with some guys that have some common sense.


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## Voltron

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and 2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each.
> 
> All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot.
> 
> Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


I say if those dumbasses want to do that, it's their choice. Just like it is yours to walk in and turn off the circuit you are working on. Don't ever let someone tell you you HAVE to work hot. Especially in an empty building.


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## jeromjenkins

Thanks for the advice guys. These guys seem to think getting hit by 277 is a badge of honor. We hired on an apprentice who has only done residential, and instead of talking about how gung ho he is, and his skills the guys were focused on how he hasn't been zapped by 277. I am currently working on getting my algebra requirement done for the union. That is my next step. 

In the 18 months I have been doing this I have worked for 3 contractors. First contractor was great for 6 months, then one payday I asked if the checks were in, I was meet with "I can't afford to pay you this week." Got paid a week later, and stuck around for another month with late checks then took a job with a large contractor and got laid of after 2 weeks.

Now I have been at this place for 9 months and it has been very good, but I can no longer ignore the safety issues. I fear the bouncing around is going to look poorly on me.


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## sbrn33

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and *2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each. *
> 
> All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot.
> 
> Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


They are not Journeyman if they are not licensed. They are only glorified apprentices. This would be illegal in my little state.


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## karl_r

Vintage Sounds said:


> There are laws that protect you. In Canada every province has a "right to refuse unsafe work" type law and some have even amended it to "obligation to refuse". In other words, at least in Alberta you are legally compelled to refuse or else you yourself can be held partially responsible for anything that results. There must be an equivalent in your state. Know your labour laws, it really pays.


in SK you have the right to refuse unsafe work but soon after that you must look for a job. It's very common here to have unqualified ppl doing electrical work. In the end you're not better just because you have a piece of paper in your wallet...


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## wildleg

just make a habit of accidently shorting stuff out before working on it.

or invest in a cheap ckt tracer. you can get a 40 dollar one at home depot that actually works fairly well most of the time for receptacles.

Honestly, it's pretty easy to work 120 hot. You shouldn't work 277 hot though, cause you are just asking for it.

If you do get hooked up on 277, though, make a point of going to the hospital. A lot of guys don't know that being hooked up with that can destroy your kidneys. A guy I know got hit bad a few years ago and it blew his shoulder apart. I think he's on his 3rd surgery now to repair it. Not worth it.


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## mdnitedrftr

If you're not comfortable doing something, dont do it. Period. What does the boss have to say about these kinds of work habits? If he willingly allows it, hes an idiot.


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## wendon

Vintage Sounds said:


> There are laws that protect you. In Canada every province has a "right to refuse unsafe work" type law and some have even amended it to "obligation to refuse". In other words, at least in Alberta you are legally compelled to refuse or else you yourself can be held partially responsible for anything that results. There must be an equivalent in your state. Know your labour laws, it really pays.


 You must remember, this is the Granola State............:whistling2:


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## Michigan Master

Sounds like you work with some unqualified boneheads. Absolutely no excuse to not de-energize in an unoccupied building, just sheer ignorance or laziness. 

My advice, start looking for another employer.


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## Michigan Master

wendon said:


> You must remember, this is the Granola State............:whistling2:


Despite whatever dumb laws CA might have, as you are well aware OSHA is not a small town in Wisconsin, and federal law makes these types of work practices illegal.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9910


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## jeromjenkins

I asked to turn the circuits off but the electrical room was locked. The guy in charge didn't want to try to find someone to unlock it. As I think back on the jobs I have done, it's kind of typical. 

When I first started here myself and 2 other guys had to put in a switch gear. One guy stuck his drill in the hot gear next to the one we were installing so he can fasten them together. I was watching him and said that isn't a good idea next he his his forearm on the bussing, his drill goes flying in the air. He has this dazed look on his face, and I am the only one that is concerned. The other guy just says be careful.


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## wendon

Michigan Master said:


> Despite whatever dumb laws CA might have, as you are well aware OSHA is not a small town in Wisconsin, and federal law makes these types of work practices illegal.
> 
> https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9910


I'm not thinking about the labor laws, I'm thinking about people that do crazy things like Russian Roulette, playing with 277 volt, working live when you don't have to, etc. The land of fruits and nuts and the rest are flakes:laughing:


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## wendon

jeromjenkins said:


> I asked to turn the circuits off but the electrical room was locked. The guy in charge didn't want to try to find someone to unlock it. As I think back on the jobs I have done, it's kind of typical.
> 
> When I first started here myself and 2 other guys had to put in a switch gear. One guy stuck his drill in the hot gear next to the one we were installing so he can fasten them together. I was watching him and said that isn't a good idea next he his his forearm on the bussing, his drill goes flying in the air. He has this dazed look on his face, and I am the only one that is concerned. The other guy just says be careful.


You're making this up, correct???


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## jeromjenkins

Thanks for the osha link. I was trying to find that info


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## wendon

jeromjenkins said:


> Thanks for the osha link. I was trying to find that info


Who are you going to blame?? Did your supervisor force you to work live or did you do it willingly??? Ever hear of LOTO????


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## jeromjenkins

I am not making it up. It was my first time doing a switch gear so I knew nothing About it other than don't touch the bussing, or the feeders.


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## wendon

jeromjenkins said:


> I am not making it up. It was my first time doing a switch gear so I knew nothing About it other than don't touch the bussing, or the feeders.


All I can say is WOW!!!! One of these times the chamber will be loaded....


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## jeromjenkins

Of course I wasn't forced. I started this thread to share my experience with unsafe practices and to find some validation for my thoughts on the this subject. I feel like an idiot for speaking up and being more assertive in refusing to do the work.


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## jeromjenkins

For not speaking up


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## wendon

jeromjenkins said:


> For not speaking up


That's a good start> :thumbsup:


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## Michigan Master

jeromjenkins said:


> Thanks for the osha link. I was trying to find that info


Here's another link you might find informative.
https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/Electrical_Safety.pdf#zoom=100

And I agree with Wendon that you bear some responsibility for your own actions, although you may not have known then, you do now. 

Speaking up is the right and admirable thing to do; the other apprentice may not be wise enough to understand this is not acceptable. However, quite frankly being an apprentice working with guys who've been doing this for 20+ years it's likely to not go over well (they'll probably taunt you for being a sissy, and then keep on being idiots). Also consider that we often work in close proximity to each other, and one person's poor decision can have severe negative consequences on the guy standing next to him... As I said before, probably best to start looking for another job.


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## jeromjenkins

This isn't something I witnessed but was told by another co-worker. Him and the same guy from the op were doing a switch gear. The guy from the op has terrible eye sight and refuses to do anything about it by the way.He was tightening the lugs for the feeders on the dead side, set the allen down wiped the sweat off his forehead grabbed the allen and stuck it in the side that was hot. Not sure what the extent of his injuries were at the time.


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## jeromjenkins

I agree with you guys. I am starting to wise up the more I am around the trade. I am sure that me making noise about these things will be unpopular. It's a small company, maybe 20 employees total. So a new job it is.


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## Black Dog

jeromjenkins said:


> I am not making it up. It was my first time doing a switch gear so I knew nothing About it other than don't touch the bussing, or the feeders.


This is what happens playing in live switch gear..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdQR7-Ap6YQ


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## Pete m.

Michigan Master said:


> Sounds like you work with some unqualified boneheads. Absolutely no excuse to not de-energize in an unoccupied building, just sheer ignorance or laziness.


I've worked different things hot and one undeniable fact is that it hurts the profit margin. You can go much quicker not having to worry if you're gonna get the  knocked out of you. What the OP is being basically forced to do is asinine from a safety standpoint for sure and also a profit standpoint.

Pete


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## Aegis

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and 2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each. All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot. Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


You need to get out of there now, you will never learn anything from these guys. I've been there where the guys above you are telling you to work hot. Master Apprentices.


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## backstay

Michigan Master said:


> Here's another link you might find informative.
> https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/Electrical_Safety.pdf#zoom=100
> 
> And I agree with Wendon that you bear some responsibility for your own actions, although you may not have known then, you do now.
> 
> Speaking up is the right and admirable thing to do; the other apprentice may not be wise enough to understand this is not acceptable. However, quite frankly being an apprentice working with guys who've been doing this for 20+ years it's likely to not go over well (they'll probably taunt you for being a sissy, and then keep on being idiots). Also consider that we often work in close proximity to each other, and one person's poor decision can have severe negative consequences on the guy standing next to him... As I said before, probably best to start looking for another job.


This post is the most honest and straight to point you will get. Time to move on.


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## NacBooster29

Pete m. said:


> I've worked different things hot and one undeniable fact is that it hurts the profit margin. You can go much quicker not having to worry if you're gonna get the  knocked out of you. What the OP is being basically forced to do is asinine from a safety standpoint for sure and also a profit standpoint.
> 
> Pete


The real pain in the wallet happens when either osha fines the company, or insurance refuses to cover him for lack of safe work practices.


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## gnuuser

NacBooster29 said:


> The real pain in the wallet happens when either osha fines the company, or insurance refuses to cover him for lack of safe work practices.


add to the fact that a wrongful death lawsuit can get very expensive.
working live can be done with taking the proper precaution.
but is it really worth it?

i don't recommend it at all because you cannot foresee all possible accidents that could happen,
But you can prevent them by ensuring that the power is off and locked out.

all i can recommend to the O.P is get away from those volt dolts because darwins gonna get them and you don't want to be caught in the backlash


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## jeromjenkins

Sent my resume out to a couple contractors. Got a call from rex moore electrical here in Sacramento. Gonna talk to them tomorrow and see what they have to offer. It's s large outfit, so I am just concerned about layoffs, and travel. The hiring manager told me in an email they expect a "construction career commute"


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## dawgs

I would rather commute then die amongst the idiots your working with.


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## sbrn33

mdnitedrftr said:


> If you're not comfortable doing something, dont do it. Period. What does the boss have to say about these kinds of work habits? If he willingly allows it, hes an idiot.


How could he even know if he is comfortable? He has less than a year and a half of experience.


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## chicken steve

Again, we've the worst system in the civilized world here

Little to _no_ isolation in our manufacturing OR our codes

Little to _no_ education of 70E

Little to _no_ enforcement of 70E

All conducive to an apprentice having to either work live, _or _move on


The jokes on us.....

~CS~


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## Michigan Master

CS,

You are correct in that our electrical apprenticeship program is not enforced on a national level; much of that responsibility falls to the states, and to individual employers. 

Appropriate electrical safety training (70E) is actually required by the NEC in order for a person to meet the definition of "qualified". OSHA also requires employers to provide the necessary training, PPE, and have company procedures that comply with regulations to protect electrical workers. OSHA (or state plan) audits are often few and far between, although an inspection will occur in the event of an accident followed by citations if the company has failed to meet regulations.

About 15 years ago my company didn't address arc flash hazards at all, and shock protection consisted of limiting exposure and electrical work to electricians. We appealed to manufacturing management and safety informing them about 70E and requesting procedural changes; it was a slow process but we've since then come a long ways.


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## cuba_pete

*experience*

I have often found that people who only stand on their years of experience put themselves on a pedestal of poo.

I think back to my first year as a newly licensed driver when an old lady scolded my driving habits and said that she had been driving for "over thirty years" or some crap like that...as she drove the wrong way..in the out ramp...of the post office, nearly hitting me. I shouted at her...Yeah, thirty years of *doing it wrong*!

Experience doesn't mean SH*T if you've been doing it wrong the whole time!:no:


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## wildleg

cuba_pete said:


> I have often found that people who only stand on their years of experience put themselves on a pedestal of poo.
> 
> I think back to my first year as a newly licensed driver when an old lady scolded my driving habits and said that she had been driving for "over thirty years" or some crap like that...as she drove the wrong way..in the out ramp...of the post office, nearly hitting me. I shouted at her...Yeah, thirty years of *doing it wrong*!
> 
> Experience doesn't mean SH*T if you've been doing it wrong the whole time!:no:


that's hilarious. It reminds me of a story my brother in law told me about his grandfather. At the time he was 16 or so, and his grandfather (who started the company around 1910 or so), and was a staunch ol Irishman, but getting on in years and losing his eyesight, was driving their ford falcon pretty much down the middle of the road and when the people coming the other way were swerving around and honking, he was honking the horn, raising his fist out the window and yelling at them to "get back on your side of the road you damn fool !"


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## jeromjenkins

Well guys I quit yesterday. I haven't found a new employer yet, but I was sent to do some demo work, only to find out once I got there I was on my own. I didn't want to disconnect the lighting and plug circuits hot, so I just quit rather than deal with being the black sheep for refusing to do live work. 

In my job search, anyone have advice in salary negotiations for some one at my level? I was making 14 an hour, and the last I interviewed I asked for 17 and got scoffed at. Got offered 14 which I rejected. Also any advice on questions about safety protocol that I can ask at future interviews?

Thanks for all the advice you guys have given mein this situation.


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## NacBooster29

I don't know the wages where you live. 
But you made a wise choice. If they were not looking out for your best interests, you need to. 
The money will come once you establish yourself with a reputable employer. 
Maybe start at 14 and see about a review after 6 months....if they are willing


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## jeromjenkins

I am in Sacramento california. I am not exactly sure what the wages are here either. Union for 1st year I believe is on the low 20's an hour. I started totally green at 11.50 an hour. I am not expecting to make top dollar, but would still like to make a livable wage.


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## jeromjenkins

I have a interview Friday with a place called mark three construction. They do mechanical, underground, and electrical. Looks promising


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## wildleg

sorry for your troubles. good luck.


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## nof123

jeromjenkins said:


> Well guys I quit yesterday. I haven't found a new employer yet, but I was sent to do some demo work, only to find out once I got there I was on my own. I didn't want to disconnect the lighting and plug circuits hot, so I just quit rather than deal with being the black sheep for refusing to do live work.
> 
> In my job search, anyone have advice in salary negotiations for some one at my level? I was making 14 an hour, and the last I interviewed I asked for 17 and got scoffed at. Got offered 14 which I rejected. Also any advice on questions about safety protocol that I can ask at future interviews?
> 
> Thanks for all the advice you guys have given mein this situation.


IMO 18 months exp you should be able to do demo work by yourself. You don't have to demo stuff live.

If my boss or anyone told me I had to work on 277 live I'd tell them to kiss my a$$.

In your interview you could possibly ask for a trial day(s) with their lead guy with the intention of discussing the rate again. They can get a better idea of everything you know and you get a chance to prove if you're worth more than they're offering.


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## jimmy21

sbrn33 said:


> They are not Journeyman if they are not licensed. They are only glorified apprentices. This would be illegal in my little state.


Apprentices are in programs and go to school. These are over paid laborers doing illegal electrical work


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## markbrady

You work with total freaking idiots who lack commonsense and have no RESPECT for how electricity can hurt or kill. 
I suggest you go work for another outfit and get away from such asshats 

For the most part working live is illegal and its only after years of electricians needlessly dying or getting seriously hurt for the CONVENIENCE of the customer that rules are now in place to protect us, So don't work live, its not a badge of honor its ****ing stupid


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## cuba_pete

jeromjenkins said:


> I am in Sacramento california. I am not exactly sure what the wages are here either. Union for 1st year I believe is on the low 20's an hour. I started totally green at 11.50 an hour. I am not expecting to make top dollar, but would still like to make a livable wage.


Seattle (and soon all of King County, maybe Washington?) has 15$ _minimum_ wage...

...go figure what skilled labor will be worth:laughing:


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## Shockdoc

markbrady said:


> You work with total freaking idiots who lack commonsense and have no RESPECT for how electricity can hurt or kill.
> I suggest you go work for another outfit and get away from such asshats
> 
> For the most part working live is illegal and its only after years of electricians needlessly dying or getting seriously hurt for the CONVENIENCE of the customer that rules are now in place to protect us, So don't work live, its not a badge of honor its ****ing stupid


Working live is a skill that is only obtainable by many years of practice and care. I still work live today when comfortable with the situation. Sometimes i have no choice but to work live. So before you pass your opinion out in the open try to think logically about this trade. I do know some electricians are not meant to work live, it takes a certain skill,patience and care to do this, very much like open heart surgery.


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## jeromjenkins

So I met with mark three on Friday and it was a good experience. They offered me 2 more dollars an hour more than where I was. 10 paid days off a year, 350 dollars a year in tool reimbursement, fully paid medical, dental and vision. As far as non union goes this is way above what anyone else seems to offer in my area. 

During the interview, he kept reiterating that only the strong will be asked to stick around once the project ends. The project is expected to least 3 to 4 months. It's a Macy's distribution center. I was very upfront and honest about my knowledge and skills. I have never ran pipe or done any bend on a job. Just what I have been practicing on at home. I have only worked on small jobs. I started being concerned about my level of skill, and wether I can meet there expectations. I am excited and nervous about the challenge.

Either way, I am thankful for the advice given to me, and for being encouraged to go elsewhere. Not only from a safety stand point but also moving on to greener pastures. (At least as it appears on paper.)


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## B-Nabs

jeromjenkins said:


> So I met with mark three on Friday and it was a good experience. They offered me 2 more dollars an hour more than where I was. 10 paid days off a year, 350 dollars a year in tool reimbursement, fully paid medical, dental and vision. As far as non union goes this is way above what anyone else seems to offer in my area.
> 
> During the interview, he kept reiterating that only the strong will be asked to stick around once the project ends. The project is expected to least 3 to 4 months. It's a Macy's distribution center. I was very upfront and honest about my knowledge and skills. I have never ran pipe or done any bend on a job. Just what I have been practicing on at home. I have only worked on small jobs. I started being concerned about my level of skill, and wether I can meet there expectations. I am excited and nervous about the challenge.
> 
> Either way, I am thankful for the advice given to me, and for being encouraged to go elsewhere. Not only from a safety stand point but also moving on to greener pastures. (At least as it appears on paper.)


That just means you've got three months to keep learning and get better, and more importantly show them your work ethic and willingness to learn. Nobody is going to expect you to know everything right now, and the only way to learn things like pipe bending is to get in there and make mistakes and learn from them. Good for you for leaving the fools, the new outfit sounds like a massive step up. Now you just have to show up every day, on time, ready to kick ass, and you'll be off to the races.


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## jeromjenkins

My first job with the new outfit is a 115,000v substation for tesla motors. Doing the ground grid now. A lot different from what I am used to, but things are going well so far. Hard to mess up digging


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## Michigan Master

jeromjenkins said:


> Hard to mess up digging


One would think so... attitude, attendance, and work ethic.


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## RIVETER

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and 2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each.
> 
> All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot.
> 
> Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


Are you asking us to explain your stupidity?


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## Shockdoc

I left a temp receptacle tied to a bastard hi leg on a job. I wrote " use at own risk" on plate. Our crew was the only ones laughing when the magic smoke came out.


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## pete87

jeromjenkins said:


> So I met with mark three on Friday and it was a good experience... 350 dollars a year in tool reimbursement, fully paid medical, dental and vision. As far as non union goes this is way above what anyone else seems to offer in my area....





Jeromjenkins , You were given $350 a year for Tools . I have never heard of that . When will you receive that $350 ? 

Anyone ever hear of that ? 



Pete


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## Michigan Master

pete87 said:


> Jeromjenkins , You were given $350 a year for Tools. I have never heard of that . When will you receive that $350 ?
> 
> Anyone ever hear of that ?
> 
> Pete


While we don't technically get a tool allowance, we can order for any tools we need through our employee purchase program and carry up to a $500 balance that can then be deducted from your weekly paycheck ($10-$30/wk. depending on your balance).


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## Mtsparky911

karl_r said:


> Vintage Sounds said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are laws that protect you. In Canada every province has a "right to refuse unsafe work" type law and some have even amended it to "obligation to refuse". In other words, at least in Alberta you are legally compelled to refuse or else you yourself can be held partially responsible for anything that results. There must be an equivalent in your state. Know your labour laws, it really pays.
> 
> 
> 
> in SK you have the right to refuse unsafe work but soon after that you must look for a job. It's very common here to have unqualified ppl doing electrical work. In the end you're not better just because you have a piece of paper in your wallet...
Click to expand...

Sorry but generally yes, you are that much better. I will turn anyone in I catch doing electrical work without a license. I'm tired of cleaning up and sorting things out that non licensed hacks have done


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## Switched

pete87 said:


> Jeromjenkins , You were given $350 a year for Tools . I have never heard of that . When will you receive that $350 ?
> 
> Anyone ever hear of that ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pete


He will be set to receive it the day before he is laid off.....

That is how those big old merit shops work around California. I like the paid vacation, but you might not have a job in 3 months, which means your paid vacation is called unemployment!


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## Michigan Master

Switched said:


> He will be set to receive it the day before he is laid off.....That is how those big old merit shops work around California. I like the paid vacation, but you might not have a job in 3 months, which means your paid vacation is called unemployment!


I've been with my current company for 17 years now and I've never been laid off.


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## B-Nabs

One of the jokers I work with was tying in a small transformer this morning right next to a live 600v 800a switchboard which had the inner cover installed but not the outer door. The EGC in the transformer got away from him and swung up under the cover and shorted out the line side lugs on the main breaker. Now that $5000 breaker is toast. Guy's lucky he didn't kill himself, let alone get any kind of burn at all. Unbelievable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NacBooster29

B-Nabs said:


> One of the jokers I work with was tying in a small transformer this morning right next to a live 600v 800a switchboard which had the inner cover installed but not the outer door. The EGC in the transformer got away from him and swung up under the cover and shorted out the line side lugs on the main breaker. Now that $5000 breaker is toast. Guy's lucky he didn't kill himself, let alone get any kind of burn at all. Unbelievable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is he fired yet?


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## SdCountySparky

NFPA70E covers having to work hot.


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## B-Nabs

NacBooster29 said:


> Is he fired yet?


Unlikely he will be, it's a family business and he's a stakeholder as well as one of the owners' brother. Boy does he feel dumb though...


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## bjjohns

B-Nabs said:


> Unlikely he will be, it's a family business and he's a stakeholder as well as one of the owners' brother. Boy does he feel dumb though...


Was that 'dumb', or 'numb'? I think somebody else posted this earlier, he likely needs to go take a stress test.


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## Aegis

B-Nabs said:


> One of the jokers I work with was tying in a small transformer this morning right next to a live 600v 800a switchboard which had the inner cover installed but not the outer door. The EGC in the transformer got away from him and swung up under the cover and shorted out the line side lugs on the main breaker. Now that $5000 breaker is toast. Guy's lucky he didn't kill himself, let alone get any kind of burn at all. Unbelievable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This kinda stuff happens at our company Nd nothing ever happens. I guess when certain employees become like family members, you can't get rid of them. I've spoke up about these guys before and nothing ever happens.


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## mapmd

We never work on 240 and above hot. Getting zapped with 240 pumping 20 or even 30 amps really, really, really ****ing sucks....so I've been told because I've never been hit with it and refuse to work on 240 hot.

When we rarely do commercial work we basically never work on anything hot. 277v does not sound like something fun to get blasted with, especially not up on a ladder. My lead was hesitant to change a ballast once he saw those grey/yellow wires. Fortunately we kept everything capped off and only hooked up hot at the end.

Sorry you work with such jokers. We have on apprentice in our company who does not do well with ladders. If he's uncomfortable he's allowed to come down or to not go up at all. He doesn't have to do scaffolding either. One of the best workers I've ever seen otherwise, so no one holds it against him. Some shops look out for their employees as long as no one's taking advantage of the company or others.


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## JRaef

sbrn33 said:


> They are not Journeyman if they are not licensed. They are only glorified apprentices. This would be illegal in my little state.


It's illegal here too. They must be unlicensed.


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## Dhender1985

I'm currently party of a remodel team at a local mall that is getting multiple new electrical rooms. A few days ago SCE came out to pull cable and set meters. While testing, they found the "A" phase ringing to ground. Come to find out, there was an angle bracket that wasn't removed during switchgear installation. This thick piece of metal wasn't barely touching, it was bent by the force put on it by the bussing. The guy in charge (who was working with 2 apprentices with about 9 months between them) has 30+ years of experience, and didn't like taking orders from me (on a prior job) because I have about 9. If SCE hasne't tested first, that gear would have blown up. Also, in another room, I installed the switchgear, and almost made the same mistake, but instead of forcing the sections together, I looked and realized the bracket was there.


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## Wirenut951

jeromjenkins said:


> So these are the events of an 8 hour shift yesterday. You have 2 apprentices with about 18 months experience (myself included) and 2 "journymen" quotes are because neither are certified but have at least 20 years experience each.
> 
> All the spaces in these events are unoccupied by the way, so as I see it no need to work on anything live. Journeyman A goes up a ladder to disconnect a 277 circuit, grabs the t bar on his way up with one hand and decides to grab an uncapped wire with the other. Gets hit with 277 and gets knocked off the ladder. Manages to escape serious injury. We then move to another suite to trim out. Same journeyman it's putting in a dimmer switch hot, his the side of the box, trips not the breaker the circuit is on but the main. killing the lighting on the entire floor. The other journeyman gets bit putting in a gfi, cause he forgot it was hot.
> 
> Meanwhile the other apprentice and I are being asked to put in receptacles and switches hot. The other apprentice gets bit putting a receptacle. As these things are happening I am thinking to myself wtf am I doing here? Not only because the lack of safety, but lack of professionalism.


I am an apprentice as well and if I were in your position I'd be moving on. The whole point of apprenticeship is to LEARN. If your journeyman is a hack, then most likely you in turn will pick up on those poor habits and practices. If the "Journeymen" are disregarding something as basic as turning off the power to work safely, imagine how many other corners are being cut and bad habits you are being taught.


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## Noah's Arc

The first place I worked was one of those contractors who do work for the big commercial maintenance companies. That means doing work on businesses while they're running, which means almost always working live. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a choice, since corporate/maintenance has determined that the techs' safety isn't worth losing a few % profits for 4 hours because half the lights on the sales floor were turned off for the work. "Do it live or leave".

Most of the techs were well-trained and experienced jmen, and if they're willing to take the risks that's fine, but then they had guys like me, with 0 training and experience, doing the same work. They didn't offer training, mostly just insults and yelling and "I'm only going to show you this once." After 1-2 months you were expected to do live work (emergency ballasts, installing new circuits, etc) unsupervised. Any early complaints about working live were met with, "if you don't want to work live, this might not be the career for you." All for $10/hr.

The only advice I can give to other new guys is don't work at a place like that. The bosses care more about their fat investment accounts than their workers, which is going to just keep rolling along nicely until the first major claim case or fraud lawsuit. Find a place where they care more about killing circuits than workers.


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