# Approved closet light



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Matt I believe you are okay as NC has made a formal interpretation of this.

Where are you in NC



https://www.ncosfm.gov/2017-nc-additional-amendments-updated-december-17-2019pdf/open





> 410.2 Definition. Closet Storage Space. The volume bounded by the sides and back closet walls and planes extending from the closet floor vertically to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) or to the highest clothes-hanging rod and parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 600 mm (24 in.) from the sides and back of the closet walls, respectively, and continuing vertically to the closet ceiling parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 300 mm (12 in.) or the width of the shelf, whichever is greater; for a closet that permits access to both sides of a hanging rod, this space includes the volume below the highest rod extending 300 mm (12 in.) on either side of the rod on a plane horizontal to the floor extending the entire length of the rod. See Figure 410.2.
> 
> *Exception: Where a shelf is not present in the area of wall above the closet’s entrance opening or doorway extending from the top of such opening or doorway vertically to the ceiling, including the area of ceiling extending perpendicular from the area of wall directly above the closet’s entrance opening or doorway to a horizontal distance of 300 mm (12 in.), shall not be defined as closet storage space*. See Figure 410.2 Exception.


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

not sure how you found that so fast. But It seems pretty clear to me. 

I will present this delicately to the inspector. He was quite proud of “catching” and explaining the “violation”.

western NC in the mountains


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

Well, the inspector got back to me about this amendment and tells me “It does not override the shelving areas of the 3 sides being the issue. It just clarifies the area at the door or front wall. Compare the amendment drawing and the regular code drawing. No shelf present over the door, and 12 inches back, the 12 inches back was in the main drawing all alone but the door entry was never addressed.”

I think he is incorrect, I think it completely overrides the shelving area issue. It specifically says the area above the door is an exception. But I don’t want to argue with him so I’m just going to appease him. Going to look for some sort of approved lighting...


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Let us know what you come up with for a solution. I would ask the inspector if he knew of any "closet approved fixture". It's a small closet and you located your fixture in an appropriate place. I wonder if there is some kind of totally enclosed LED fixture. Something small is all you need for such a small closet. I totally understand why light fixtures need to be kept clear of clothing and combustible materials in a closet. You can't avoid safety challenged hoarders who pack their closets with crap so maybe there is a special fixture made just for them.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Your call. IMO, the inspector is incorrect and I believe Joe Starling would back me up on this. Joe is the states engineer and the authority having jurisdiction for the state. You can call him 919-647-0020 or Danny Thomas 919-647-0062 

I would have no issue calling them and get their ruling. That is what they are there for....


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I just spoke with Joe Starling and he said I was correct in my understanding. The inspector is incorrect

@MattM-NC


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis is such a nice guy. 😊


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Don't know if this is available in the States, but these are used quite a bit here.
Motion led wall/ceiling mount


----------



## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I just spoke with Joe Starling and he said I was correct in my understanding. The inspector is incorrect
> 
> @MattM-NC


I tried once to show a reference in the NEC to an inspector proving that his ruling was wrong, and he told me that he didn't care what the code book said... THAT HE HAD THE FINAL SAY! So I went ahead and bonded the neutral bar in a sub panel... passed inspection... then went back later and took it back out.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Quickservice said:


> I tried once to show a reference in the NEC to an inspector proving that his ruling was wrong, and he told me that he didn't care what the code book said... THAT HE HAD THE FINAL SAY! So I went ahead and bonded the neutral bar in a sub panel... passed inspection... then went back later and took it back out.



I had an inspector say the same to me. He is no longer working for the county he was employed by. His boss told me if any of his inspectors ever says that to me then he wants to know right away. 

The fact is the inspector usually does not have the final say.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wcord said:


> Don't know if this is available in the States, but these are used quite a bit here.
> Motion led wall/ceiling mount


Hah! Just grabbed my first one of these for my house. Still sitting on the dash.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I have used them in the past, they are awesome. Customers love them.

Cheers
John


----------



## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Navyguy said:


> I have used them in the past, they are awesome. Customers love them.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Agreed, they are fantastic. The motion detection is second to none. Only seen them in 5000k though.


----------



## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Leviton makes these, I think they’re specifically made for closets. I’ve used them, they’re pretty nice. 





9850-LED - LED Ceiling Keyless Lampholder with GU24 LED Lamp and Guard in White - Leviton


White - LED Ceiling Keyless Lampholder with GU24 LED Lamp and Guard, 10W-120VAC, 60Hz, Energy Star Qualified




www.leviton.com





I’d post a pic but I unfortunately can’t figure out how from my phone.


----------



## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Leviton 9864-LED 8.7W-120VAC 60 hz LED Ceiling Occupancy Sensor Lampholder, White This is the Leviton led with occ


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I just spoke with Joe Starling and he said I was correct in my understanding. The inspector is incorrect
> 
> @MattM-NC


I sent an email to Danny this morning, and spoke with Joe. Joe is who wrote the amendment and indeed this is what he wrote it for. He told me to email Danny and get the "interpretation" from him. He said that they can't give approval of specific situations based on pictures, so they will use my picture specifically as an example to interpret the code and let the local inspectors go from there.

I'm learning a lot about how all these governing bodies work together from this little situation...


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It pays to go over there head if you do it in a pleasant way. You can say "someone on an electrical forum told me that your interpretation was incorrect so I checked with Joe Starling and he agreed with me."


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

wcord said:


> Don't know if this is available in the States, but these are used quite a bit here.
> Motion led wall/ceiling mount



I appreciate all of the the fixture suggestions, but after looking at each of them, none are actually identified for use per 410.16 c 5. Which is to say they are not approved for use within what is defined as "closet storage space". They are only approved for 410.16 c 1, which is just saying its an enclosed light source. They are still required to be 12inches from "nearest point of closet storage space." 

I don't think anyone has manufactured a light that is identified for use "within the closet storage space", even though the code makes a place for it. That would basically be a light that is UL approved for having clothes, board games, shoes boxes, really combustible materials, just hanging out all over it indefinitely.


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It pays to go over there head if you do it in a pleasant way. You can say "someone on an electrical forum told me that your interpretation was incorrect so I checked with Joe Starling and he agreed with me."


I'm being careful to be respectful about it. Everyone involved is thoughtful and friendly. I don't see any reason to get agro or arrogant about it.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MattM-NC said:


> I'm being careful to be respectful about it. Everyone involved is thoughtful and friendly. I don't see any reason to get agro or arrogant about it.



I got the feeling you were being respectful and careful. Some inspectors get their feelings hurt and then get angry but there is no need for that.

BTW, the only light I know about that is suitable for the closet space is the clothes rod lights


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I noticed that many people think that if a fixture states it is suitable for a closet then it is okay. That is not the case-- It must be suitable for the storage area of the closet.


----------



## funkking (May 27, 2020)

What about this closet light from Lowe's?

I installed 4 of these lights in closets a few weeks ago and they passed inspection.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

funkking said:


> What about this closet light from Lowe's?
> 
> I installed 4 of these lights in closets a few weeks ago and they passed inspection.


Those are fine if they keep the distances from the storage area. They are not suitable for being in the storage area itself.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

A few year ago one of my customers wanted me to take a look at his grandma’s house to see what work needed to be done.

One of the things I noted on the report was the closet lights were a standard keyless with an incandescent lamp.

I went over my findings with the 90+ year old woman who apparently inherited her house from her parents.

Of all the issues with K&T, fuses, open splices and just plain stupid chit... her focus was on the closet lights.

She wanted to know what people are so goddam stupid that they keep breaking light bulbs when getting stuff out of their closet.

It was pretty funny.

We ended up with a complete rewire (grandson paid for it all). After the inspection we installed a keyless in her laundry as a joke.

She loved it and wouldn’t let us remove it.


----------



## MattM-NC (Dec 11, 2016)

How it went: I received an email from state inspector. Among other things, he states, twice, "In my opinion you have provided a code compliant installation of your LED fixture location" He explains clearly that enclosed LED's can be installed in the area defined in the 410.2 exception. _*The area defined in the exception*_ That area is above the door and out from the header on the ceiling up to 12 inches. 

I got a reinspection this morning, same inspector, who was sure that the email did not pertain to this light, and that I had misrepresented him to the state and so he wanted to report my license to the nc board. It took about half an hour, where he really really wanted me to understand closet layout, and I really really felt that I already did. Round and round we went. He eventually gave me a green tag and told me "this is on you and the state." I thanked him for his patience, and apologized for any misunderstandings. And i _think_ we're good. But I hope I don't have bad blood with one of the few inspectors in my area over a closet light.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Sounds like a d**k.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> Sounds like a d**k.


That’s being too nice


----------



## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

MattM-NC said:


> I appreciate all of the the fixture suggestions, but after looking at each of them, none are actually identified for use per 410.16 c 5. Which is to say they are not approved for use within what is defined as "closet storage space". They are only approved for 410.16 c 1, which is just saying its an enclosed light source. They are still required to be 12inches from "nearest point of closet storage space."
> 
> I don't think anyone has manufactured a light that is identified for use "within the closet storage space", even though the code makes a place for it. That would basically be a light that is UL approved for having clothes, board games, shoes boxes, really combustible materials, just hanging out all over it indefinitely.


I realize I'm a few days late to this party, but I think this light could work in this situation (Just happened to have the spec sheet open looking for lumens for a customer when I read this thread). Spec sheet for a cooper halo 4" LED surface downlight. The compliance lists your 410.16 (C)(5). 



https://www.cooperlighting.com/content/dam/cooper-lighting/brands/halo/spec-sheets/halo-sld4xjb-adv141377-sss.pdf



COMPLIANCE • cULus Listed ceiling and wall • cULus Damp Location listed ceiling and wall • cULus Wet Location Listed, ceiling only (shower rated) • Suitable for use in closets, compliant with NFPA® 70, NEC® Section 410.16 (A)(3) and *410.16 (C)(5) *


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Guys there still seems to be a misunderstanding on the difference between a closet and the storage area. Not all of the closet falls into a storage area. The storage is is defined by the graphic in the NEC. Exception being the NC amendment no light can be within that storage area of the closet unless it is listed for the storage area. Being listed for closet does not make the fixture suitable for the storage area in the closet.

Make sure you understand this as many people miss this difference.


----------



## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

This is like many other instances- the light must be placed within a specific area of the closet in order to comply. Like kitchen counter outlets, bathroom gfi, etc... 

Based on what you've said MattM, it looks like the inspector was wrong but couldn't admit it. 
Hard to know when it's better to comply, then correct it when they leave and hope they figure it out later. I try to understand how they come to this mindset, they're people after all. Nice job keeping your cool. 

Although I've never been confused by any part of the code, my friend has been. As a matter of fact, I - I mean, he- remembers simply guessing on the closet question on his exam. I think this inspector will be glad for this experience in the long run and will probably be glad next time you cross paths.


----------



## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Viggmundir said:


> I realize I'm a few days late to this party, but I think this light could work in this situation (Just happened to have the spec sheet open looking for lumens for a customer when I read this thread). Spec sheet for a cooper halo 4" LED surface downlight. The compliance lists your 410.16 (C)(5).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that sure does look like it's listed for storage areas as it states suitable for 410.16 C5. Good find👍


----------

