# New generation HID vs Induction?



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

I know that induction sales people sing reduction in wattage and kWh usage, but conveniently omit the light output.

I came across GE UltraMAX HID brochure, which claims to reduce lamp decay significantly, so that a lower wattage lamp can be used to meet the target mean lumen goal. They also claim reduction in power loss in ballasting by about half. 

Their claim is that their 320W lamps setup consumes 25% less power than conventional 400W MH while increasing maintained output by 25%. 

http://www.gelighting.com/na/busine...re_library/ballast/downloads/ultramax_hid.pdf


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> I know that induction sales people sing reduction in wattage and kWh usage, but conveniently omit the light output.
> 
> I came across GE UltraMAX HID brochure, which claims to reduce lamp decay significantly, so that a lower wattage lamp can be used to meet the target mean lumen goal. They also claim reduction in power loss in ballasting by about half.
> 
> ...


Thats petty good so it looks like they want Metal halide fixtures to compete with the T-5 High bays..:thumbsup:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats petty good so it looks like they want Metal halide fixtures to compete with the T-5 High bays..:thumbsup:


Unlike induction, the thing that looks like a UFO with tripods attaches onto existing fixture and fitted with a new lamp.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> I know that induction sales people sing reduction in wattage and kWh usage, but conveniently omit the light output.
> 
> I came across GE UltraMAX HID brochure, which claims to reduce lamp decay significantly, so that a lower wattage lamp can be used to meet the target mean lumen goal. They also claim reduction in power loss in ballasting by about half.
> 
> ...


I would check further, and see "HOW" they achieve the power loss savings. Are you saying that they are not using transformer technology? I would not believe it but I am open to any new technology.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> I know that induction sales people sing reduction in wattage and kWh usage, but conveniently omit the light output.


 
I'm all ears. Tell me how Induction sales people leave out light outputs.

As far as I can tell, Induction puts out better light than HPS, when putting them side by side.


In regards to the GE brochure, as far as I can see, anything MH, MV, or HPS will be a thing of the past. It's considered old technology.


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> anything MH, MV, or HPS will be a thing of the past. It's considered old technology.


MV certainly is gone. I spent last Friday and Saturday at the Philips lighting application center. The main thing I got out of it was that there are different light sources for different applications. 
Dnk, your not that far from there, you should think about attending some of their courses. It is an impressive facility.
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/connect/lighting_application_center.wpd


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I would check further, and see "HOW" they achieve the power loss savings. Are you saying that they are not using transformer technology? I would not believe it but I am open to any new technology.


Current limiting reactors or loosely coupled transformers are not all that efficient which is how magnetic ballasts are constructed. They suffer from I^2R as well as significant amount of iron loss. They don't use iron core 60Hz transformers. It's just a current limiting power supply that operate at high frequency, which has less loss. 

Although the reduced power loss is a contributing to power savings, its not the most significant thing for that product. What they claim is that whatever method of driving the lamp reduces lamp decay substantially, so that a lower wattage lamp can be used from the start. They're not claiming to be "brighter" on the day of install, but slightly higher sustained output over the life of lamp. A set of brand new 400W MH will be brighter on the day of install compared to 320W on this GE system. 

I have no idea how they achieve their claimed reduction in lamp decay. You can inquire GE if there is a patent and if so get the pat. # and feel free get a copy from the Patents & Trademarks office and read through it. 



Dnkldorf said:


> I'm all ears. Tell me how Induction sales people leave out light outputs.
> 
> As far as I can tell, Induction puts out better light than HPS, when putting them side by side.
> 
> ...






Watts, watts and watts. 
Where's mean lumens? That is, lumen output at 40% of life is spent. Here they omit it entirely. Sometimes, they mention the out of the box lumens. For lighting specifying, its the mean lumen that matters. If you cut power by 60%, but you also cut light by 30%, its deceptive to claim 60% power savings. 

Quality of light from induction is identical to CFLs. They're ring CFLs excited by RF power. Aside from lack of electrodes, the spectrum of light is comparable to CFLs using comparable phosphor blend. It's still a fluorescent lamp. Something being old technology means nothing. Car engines, electric motors, wheels, bearings, pulleys, etc still operate on the same principles as they did over a century ago. They're just a refinements of the same technology. 

Mercury vapor is going away. It does have long lamp life, but CRI and efficacy are both terrible and it's going away, because it's getting outlawed.

So far the only serious flaws with HIDs are long warm-up and significant lamp decay. They've got the warm-up time addressed in automotive HID technology using xenon fill gas. They've got restart delay addressed in instant re-strike lamps and it looks like GEs trying to address the lamp decay issue here.

Fluorescent and HID systems are usually backed by well established manufacturers. 

Did you ever notice that the fields of induction and LED lights are filled with coin flippers who just resell no-name or private labeled generic import products and offer warranties longer than their business existed? It's a joke. You see companies established six months ago offering 10 + year warranties. Warranty is the length of stated warranty or the life of the company, whichever is shorter.


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