# Residential Conduit Installs



## Navyguy

So from reading I am led to believe that some states in the US requires EMT conduit for residential electrical installations for branch circuits.

I have run about a million miles of EMT over the years...but I can't imagine how this would be done.

What are the techniques used to do this? In other words, do you just use short pieces of conduit and couple it all together through the studs or is the conduit run and then another wall placed on top of the conduit?

I suspect this take a lot of planning also...so do you just run 3/4" to everything or do you actually calculate the conduit fills for the entire job?

I would assume that each job would have about 6-8 conduit runs to the panel...what do most of you guys do there...is there a transition where you bring them into a larger JB / pull box and only have one larger conduit or do you have all the small ones go right to the panel?

I find this an interesting practice. Other then the standard "the code requires it" what is the rationale for conduit in combustible construction instead of using standard NMD90 (romex) types of wiring?

Thanks for the answers.

Cheers


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## 480sparky

Many places require something other than NM (Loomix for you Northerners) in exposed situations. Most people just use EMT or MC in these instances.

Only a few locations actually require a metal raceway throughout a house. Chicago is one of them.


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## Navyguy

So this is a city / local requirement verses a state requirement?

We have similar rules about exposed wires also, but I was thinking along the lines of the entire house verses the exposed sections only.

One of the pics I saw on the forum had conduit for the receptacles under the windows in a livingroom...that is actually what led me to my reading / research.

Cheers


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## jwjrw

480sparky said:


> Many places require something other than NM (Loomix for you Northerners) in exposed situations. Most people just use EMT or MC in these instances.
> 
> Only a few locations actually require a metal raceway throughout a house. Chicago is one of them.


Figures Illinois would have a stupid rule like that!:jester:


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## Lone Crapshooter

I too would like to see a typical 4 bed 2 bath house done in EMT. I saw somewhere that houses in Chicago are piped in with EMT.
I can see how you could do a single story but a 2 story I just cannot imagine how you would do the first floor lighting unless the carpenters ran 2 X 2 furring strips on the joists.

LC

Listen Think Solve


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## Voltech

We did some single story 4plex's that had to have a metal raceway on the 3 walls that were between the units. We ran BX at 1st then was told by a very green inspector that BX could be no longer than 6 foot. We have alot of 4plexe's in that part of town coming up so I smiled, and just asked him how he wanted it done. He asked me if I knew what a "3/4 data stub out". The next time I see him Im going to ask him why those walls have to have a metal raceway. This guy also failed a house for not having a green wire nut on the ground at the end of a branch circuit on a rough in. I asked him if the code office was hiring and he didn't get it.


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## wildleg

I haven't done much resi, but I've often thought that it is a great idea to use EMT, the way homeowners nail crap up everywhere. I'd like to do a house in EMT just for fun someday. Anybody have pics of some houses in Chicago showing the rough in ?


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## jwjrw

wildleg said:


> I haven't done much resi, but I've often thought that it is a great idea to use EMT, the way homeowners nail crap up everywhere. I'd like to do a house in EMT just for fun someday. Anybody have pics of some houses in Chicago showing the rough in ?


 
I cant say I have ever had to fix a wire that was damaged from a customer nailing crap up. It may happen but I havent seen it


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## MDShunk

Here's a really nice powerpoint (converted to a PDF), that gives a really nice presentation on why Chicago chooses steel conduit.


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## MDShunk

MDShunk said:


> Here's a really nice powerpoint (converted to a PDF), that gives a really nice presentation on why Chicago chooses steel conduit.


http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/Arendt presentation.pdf
oops... forgot link....


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## Ohmbre

EMT in residential is no big deal really. As far as how its done, we stub up above the top plate and typically use the lighting jboxes to homerun out of. There are times when we need to use short radius benders and goosenecks in the ceilings. Getting around corners or under windows can be a bit tough sometimes.
EMT gives us the advantage of limiting the use of arc fault protection, ease of adding circuits, insuring proper protection of conductors by means of a metalic raceway.
There is no difference if it is a single family residence or a multi unit building. We are allowed to hole gawg thru the joists (within reason).


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## macmikeman

Navyguy said:


> What are the techniques used to do this? In other words, do you just use short pieces of conduit and couple it all together through the studs or is the conduit run and then another wall placed on top of the conduit?
> 
> I suspect this take a lot of planning also...so do you just run 3/4" to everything or do you actually calculate the conduit fills for the entire job?
> 
> I would assume that each job would have about 6-8 conduit runs to the panel...what do most of you guys do there...is there a transition where you bring them into a larger JB / pull box and only have one larger conduit or do you have all the small ones go right to the panel?
> Thanks for the answers.
> 
> Cheers


I have never been to Chicago, but I have completely piped in two house jobs, and dozens of wood framed commercial jobs. You have to think like a plumber is all. Yes there were those times when cutting and coupling for the floor joist perpendicular runs was required, but mostly not due to the fact that since the GC's always fall over trying to please the plumbers with building extra soffits to conceal the plumbing, I have used those routes to go from point a to point b. I use the attics as much as possible. I pound emt thru long stretches of drilled holes and cut the end off the hammered side. I use wire lube to help glide the emt thru wood holes. I route from ground floor outlets up to the second floor outlets, then thru the attic to the next outlet and then back down to ground floor outlets etc. I take as much as possible below the slab to the panel in pvc. If I had to do it all the time I bet I could get fast enough to get it to about 1.5 x regular romex hours, but as it was it did take a lot of labor hours to wire those houses, and you still have to pull wire thru emt once you get it where it is going. I like romex.....


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## Shockdoc

I would imagine chicago prefers steel AC or MC over the aluminum lite stuff since that junk is easily damaged.


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## sparks134

Ohmbre said:


> EMT in residential is no big deal really. As far as how its done, we stub up above the top plate and typically use the lighting jboxes to homerun out of. There are times when we need to use short radius benders and goosenecks in the ceilings. Getting around corners or under windows can be a bit tough sometimes.
> EMT gives us the advantage of limiting the use of arc fault protection, ease of adding circuits, insuring proper protection of conductors by means of a metalic raceway.
> There is no difference if it is a single family residence or a multi unit building. We are allowed to hole gawg thru the joists (within reason).


 The key is a good holehawg with good bits and a file!!!


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## LJSMITH1

Shockdoc said:


> I would imagine chicago prefers steel AC or MC over the aluminum lite stuff since that junk is easily damaged.


 
MC/AC Cable in Chicago is not typically 'allowed' or specified. EMT or Rigid is the standard - even for resi. The further you move away from Chicago proper...the more AC/MC/NM is used in resi.


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## Bob Badger

Shockdoc said:


> I would imagine chicago prefers steel AC or MC over the aluminum lite stuff since that junk is easily damaged.


They do not 'like' cable at all, only pipe. FMC can only be used for short sections.


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## Ohmbre

MC and AC are recognized wiring methods for limited uses only. I'm amused by the way everyone makes it seem as if it's a bad thing that we use metallic conduit for residential.


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## MDShunk

Ohmbre said:


> MC and AC are recognized wiring methods for limited uses only. I'm amused by the way everyone makes it seem as if it's a bad thing that we use metallic conduit for residential.


I don't think anyone feels it's a "bad" thing. It's just harder to comprehend the value of wiring that way.


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## B4T

Only good thing is you won't see HO and HI guys doing their own wiring unless Blue Carlon nail on boxes come with 1/2" holes for emt fittings :laughing:


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## Ohmbre

The value is that; 1) we make a little more money the contractoes make a little more money. 2) most electricians can do residential as well as commercial and industrial because we learn to bend conduit early on.


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## B4T

Ohmbre said:


> The value is that; 1) we make a little more money the contractoes make a little more money. 2) most electricians can do residential as well as commercial and industrial because we learn to bend conduit early on.


Job security is a wonderful thing :thumbsup:

Only bad thing is the price of any install becomes triple the price of NM.

Some day Chicago will look at the rest of the country and see they are doing it all wrong


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## Ohmbre

Thats ok. Your competitors also must bid it for EMT so it is the industry standard. Anything less and the inspectors fail that job


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## Shockdoc

wildleg said:


> I haven't done much resi, but I've often thought that it is a great idea to use EMT, the way homeowners nail crap up everywhere. I'd like to do a house in EMT just for fun someday. Anybody have pics of some houses in Chicago showing the rough in ?


 I've done remods in older estate type homes originally wired in the early 1900s in black iron conduit. I have found rewiring , relocating have been a pleasure. I would either extent or move the point with either coupled EMT or greenfield, easily pulling new conductors to next points, no buried splices boxes in the same throw of the hand. I had once piped out a small residentail 3 car garage with 3/4 emt and 3/4 pvc slab work, All the added equipment the owner moved in there when he lost his main shop was just a matter of pulling a few conductors through a few existing boxes to new disconnects. I recently piped out an entire doctors office, it was fun and profitable.


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## Bob Badger

Ohmbre said:


> MC and AC are recognized wiring methods for limited uses only. I'm amused by the way everyone makes it seem as if it's a bad thing that we use metallic conduit for residential.


I think it is entirely about making work and has little or nothing to do with increasing safety.


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## Navyguy

Well it is certainly interesting, for me anyway. It looks like from the pictures (in that .pdf) that you use a lot of 4" square boxes and then add a plaster ring...I was envisioning a utility box and making a number of off-sets all the time.

In some of those pics... I noticed that there is no conduit support close to the box. I suspect that your code allows the stud to be the support within so many inches of the box?

I am no stranger to running EMT in steel studs or in concrete / block, but I was wondering how it was in wood studs.

So the holes are quite a bit bigger to allow the conduit to move around in there freely and a portion of the stud is cut away close top the box to get your 90* as close to the box when entering / leaving next to the stud. I was assuming that would be "floated" somehow in the cavity space between the studs.

I see the technique of trying to align as much as possible receptacles between floors / levels, that makes sense.

What happens at the panel end?

I can definitely see where the homeowner would not want to get involved in this. I also think that the stats that were presented were very interesting. In Canada an electrical fire is a fairly rare event in general...wonder what the difference is...

Thanks for the responses.

Cheers


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## Bob Badger

Navyguy said:


> I also think that the stats that were presented were very interesting.


Always consider the source of stats and the motivations of those sponsoring the research.


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## Ohmbre

Bob Badger said:


> I think it is entirely about making work and has little or nothing to do with increasing safety.


Not as well versed on the NEC as I should be, but I understand that in the latest update there was an increase in arc fault protection. In Chicago arc fault protection is limited to the bedroom outlets only. There is no need for arc fault as our metallic raceway provides protection for ur conductors as well as a mechanical ground. If a short occurs it occurs within the conduit. 
Take the time and read the PDF sure it may be biased due to the conduit association having something to do with it. 
A fire occured a few years back in a county owned building in downtown Chicago. The city in their infinite wisdom wanted to relax the code as far as the use of metallic conduit for of all things fire alarm. Contractors both union and non-union expressed their concern. These are people within our trade who believed so strongly in our wiring methods that they fought to keep them abd won. 
I have a buddy who works in fire prevention and he gave me a statistic something like Chicago has 4 times less electrical fires than the national average. Is this due to the use of metallic conduit? If we recognized romex as a wiring method would that number be less? Are you gonna tell me properly installed romex wiring is as safe as pipe and wire?


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## macmikeman

Navyguy said:


> In Canada an electrical fire is a fairly rare event in general...wonder what the difference is... Cheers


It is probably you guys are better electricians since your mothers all made you swallow cod liver oil every day during the winter.....:laughing:

By the way, what's up with the dots at the end of your last sentence?:whistling2:


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## 480sparky

macmikeman said:


> ......By the way, what's up with the dots at the end of your last sentence?:whistling2:


Like what's at the end of your signature?.........


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## macmikeman

480sparky said:


> Like what's at the end of your signature?.........


Stop this, your spoiling my fun.....:laughing:


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## 480sparky

macmikeman said:


> Stop this, your spoiling my fun.....:laughing:


 
Sorry...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


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## Ohmbre

We have a "thank you" button maybe we should have a "sorry" button :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

Ohmbre said:


> We have a "thank you" button maybe we should have a "sorry" button :thumbsup:


 







 
I'd rather see Bob's STFU button, but I doubt that's gonna happen.

​


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## Navyguy

Because I have many unfinished thoughts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

Cheers


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## Bob Badger

Ohmbre said:


> I have a buddy who works in fire prevention and he gave me a statistic something like Chicago has 4 times less electrical fires than the national average.


I have read that ststistic and have doubts it really means what it sound like. The fact that Chicago does better job investigating the cause of fires could easily explain that statistic.

If that was a valid statistic I would expect the rest of the country to jump and join the band wagon, I would expect the insurance industry to push for a change.



> Are you gonna tell me properly installed romex wiring is as safe as pipe and wire?


I am going to say that the money spent on pipe would make a bigger difference spent on other safety measures.

You don't see it as odd that not only does most of the USA but most of the world as well use cables but it is not good enough in Chicago?


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## macmikeman

Navyguy said:


> Because I have many unfinished thoughts...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis
> 
> Cheers


:thumbup: That would make a fairly good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moniker for somebody to use if he wanted to have multiple names on this forum. But who would do such a thing anyway??....


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> I have read that ststistic and have doubts it really means what it sound like. The fact that Chicago does better job investigating the cause of fires could easily explain that statistic. ............


Thre are other things to consider as well. It could be Chicago has tighter building codes to prevent fires in the first place, not just from an electrical end, as well as reduce the damage a fire does.


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Thre are other things to consider as well. It could be Chicago has tighter building codes to prevent fires in the first place, not just from an electrical end, as well as reduce the damage a fire does.


You mean they still haven't gotten over Mrs. Murphy's cow knocking over the oil lamp? :blink:


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## sparks134

Mrs O'leary's cow! Get it right!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## B4T

sparks134 said:


> Mrs O'leary's cow! Get it right!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Turns out it was a candle :laughing:


http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...OQyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6QAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=5980,7895256


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## s.kelly

Bob Badger said:


> I have read that ststistic and have doubts it really means what it sound like. The fact that Chicago does better job investigating the cause of fires could easily explain that statistic.
> 
> If that was a valid statistic I would expect the rest of the country to jump and join the band wagon, I would expect the insurance industry to push for a change.


Considering the resistance in this thread,I think that is evidence alone that the rest of the country would not jump on the band wagon. 

Also,there is Lowe's HD Romex Carlon etc etc that would spend lots of money to keep it from happening. Also would be many contractor assns etc.


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## goose134

For those who do not run pipe it must seem pure folly to do so in a residential setting. It is not cost prohibitive, as EVERYONE has to do it. From the NM point of view, it would seem a waste of time and money. Maybe. I think it would take me longer trying to figure out which wires were my travellers and switch legs when I only had black, red and white. Oh, I could figure it out, but that first one would lose some money for sure.


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## Shockdoc

Conduit in residential is a nice thing but I won't be doing it unless the extra dollars are there. On a good note though my helper and I roughed in a deli using 800 ft of 3/4 EMT yesterday, cieling, walls , HRs and appliances all in one day w/ less than $400 worth of material.


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## Navyguy

So is it only Chicago that has this? I was under the impression there were several states / cities that had this practice.

Agreed that if everyone is doing it then it is a cost of doing business. I feel that I am pretty good and bending pipe, but I am sure I would loose on the first few until I figured out the techniques of doing it properly with efficiency.

I would like very much to see one of these from start to finish someday. How long would a standard 1500 sq foot house rough-in take? I see you travelling to each device three times, once to mount the box and run the conduit, once to install the wires and once to install the devices. For running NMD, there would only be two stops at each device box. Also I see each time spent at the device box longer, then dealing with NMD. Regardless I like the idea actually…I am a big fan of conduit.

Up here it is tough to make money in new home construction unless you are doing custom homes. You have one Journeyman watching 5 sites and “wire monkeys” pulling romex like spaghetti and then the journeyman comes in and does all the connections. Not a good scene, that is for sure, but legal and popular in the big cities where large developments are going in all the time.

Cheers


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## rbj

Navyguy said:


> So is it only Chicago that has this? I was under the impression there were several states / cities that had this practice.
> 
> Cheers


Commercial and residential construction in the same structure can have both combined that is common in other States.


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## ralph

Does Chicago require sprinkler systems in residential homes?


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## user438

ralph said:


> Does Chicago require sprinkler systems in residential homes?


 
Down here you have to run EMT on the exterior walls since they are block and only have 3/4" space between drywall and wiring. ( some county's do allow romex on these walls for some reason though)

here is a pic of the last addition I did


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## user438

Another pic


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## goose134

> How long would a standard 1500 sq foot house rough-in take?


I haven't worked resi in a while, but as I recall 3 guys could pipe, pull, and splice a 2500 sq. ft. house in about 3 days. I can remember burning about 2,000 feet of 1/2" per house. I was an apprentice, so I'm sure journeymen could do it faster than me. I was only putting up 500-600 ft. a day.


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## goose134

ralph said:


> Does Chicago require sprinkler systems in residential homes?



Only in high rises.


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## frenchelectrican

Navyguy said:


> So is it only Chicago that has this? I was under the impression there were several states / cities that had this practice.


 AFAIK ., I know couple cities in Wisconsin did try to change the rules to run all conduit in the resdentail and they did meet very stiff restincae and they { contractors } don't want to change what it really work so far.

So they still using the T/E cable { twin and earth } aka NM cable but it may change in future but who knows.

In France not too often we use EMT in resdentail but more common to use either PVC or T/E depending on the run and type of building set up however commercal we lean more toward to conduits plus a wad full of MC's as well 

But don't go there with SWA cables that is diffrent story.

Merci,Marc


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## user438

I think the only point where conduit becomes more cost prohibitive is in labor, especially when the workers you have cant run EMT worth a damn.

It may take me longer to run a 3/4" EMT home run, But I can fit more than 3 14/3's worth of conductors in that..

When it comes to conduit I am like Neo from the "Matrix" movie, I'm moving so fast to the naked eye I am standing still :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott

Rich R said:


> Down here you have to run EMT on the exterior walls since they are block and only have 3/4" space between drywall and wiring. ( some county's do allow romex on these walls for some reason though)
> 
> here is a pic of the last addition I did


The NEC does not prohibit that from being NM


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## Bob Badger

Rich R said:


> Down here you have to run EMT on the exterior walls since they are block and only have 3/4" space between drywall and wiring. ( some county's do allow romex on these walls for some reason though)
> 
> here is a pic of the last addition I did


What NEC section are they citing?

The NEC would allow NM for that.


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## Navyguy

In Canada that would have to be pipe or BX. NMD90 can only be used in combustible construction. If it (NMD90) comes into contact with non-combustible material it needs to be protected.

Cheers


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## rbj

Navyguy said:


> In Canada that would have to be pipe or BX. NMD90 can only be used in combustible construction. If it (NMD90) comes into contact with non-combustible material it needs to be protected.
> 
> Cheers


Would foil batt or even rigid foam require pipe?


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## user438

Bob Badger said:


> What NEC section are they citing?
> 
> The NEC would allow NM for that.


 
Yeah the NEC allows it but local amendments require it. This is one example of how sometimes the code allows for some really unsafe things.

That cable on a block wall will have less than 1" of clearance from the face of drywall, larger cables like 6/3 for example have even less. People nail into these wires all of the time when hanging pictures, shelves etc..

I was at a service call 2 weeks ago where at 9pm the homeowner was hanging his new flatscreen and drilled right into a piece of unprotected romex, lost power to the room and scared the hell out of him.


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## captkirk

Ive done scores of pipe jobs but fwiw resi and pipe are a bit much. I can see where mc is better, (Mice chewing romex) but emt is overkill. What do you do when a customer wants add ons? Cut the wall open..? 
I think Chicago and EMT has more to do with the Union than it does consumer safety. I would be very cuious to know what the ratio if electrical fires is between Chicago and A big city that doesnt mandate emt.


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## sparks134

It all started with tha Mrs. Olearys cow! hahaha!


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## goose134

Marc posted this a bit earlier in the thread:

http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/Arendt presentation.pdf


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## Voltech

goose134 said:


> Marc posted this a bit earlier in the thread:
> 
> http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/Arendt presentation.pdf


Good Read..thanks


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## rbj

In respect to the debate for doing pipe or pulling rope, I have experience in both doing residential and commercial for a fair opinion. Both systems still have a common flaw that the Chicago charts indicate....and peripheral fixture cord still create fires. Eliminating extension cords in most applications in both interior environments could reduce fire occurrence in many cases. 
As far as running pipe in residential, hands down pipe costs about 60% more in labor installation due to lack of drop ceiling access and slab floor channels that cost a lot more than easily pulling romex in an attic...especially with open beam ceilings that require cutting rigid foam or SIPs to accommodate overhead runs on the roof. 
The Romex pics shown in the posted presentation are hack jobs IMHO and are a fire waiting to happen.


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## JohnJ0906

rbj said:


> The Romex pics shown in the posted presentation are hack jobs IMHO and are a fire waiting to happen.


Which ones are you referring to?


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## Dennis Alwon

I would be curious as to the fire record for that of Chicago vs NY City. NYC for all the years I lived there only allowed metal cable or raceway. Basically, during my time there in the 1960-1970's BX was the standard wiring method in homes.


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## rbj

JohnJ0906 said:


> Which ones are you referring to?


NM cross-towns run over truss plate edges, drilled through trusses, 6 cables through one top-plate hole...are examples given to make EMT installs a good reason.


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## Shockdoc

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would be curious as to the fire record for that of Chicago vs NY City. NYC for all the years I lived there only allowed metal cable or raceway. Basically, during my time there in the 1960-1970's BX was the standard wiring method in homes.


I've seen BX glow bright red and light up wood framing, can't say i've ever seen that with conduit.


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## sparks134

Shockdoc said:


> I've seen BX glow bright red and light up wood framing, can't say i've ever seen that with conduit.


 Got pictures?


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## gilbequick

Shockdoc said:


> I've seen BX glow bright red and light up wood framing, can't say i've ever seen that with conduit.


If that BX was glowing bright and red there was a much bigger problem going on than the BX itself, that conduit would not have solved.


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## JohnJ0906

gilbequick said:


> If that BX was glowing bright and red there was a much bigger problem going on than the BX itself, that conduit would not have solved.


BX armor without the bonding strip can act like a long coil in the event of a ground fault, so it would just heat up, and not allow enough current to flow to trip the breaker.
That wouldn't be a problem with conduit. Of course loose connectors could cause trouble.


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## Curt

From what I was told about pipe in Chicago it was pushed by the fire dept.. Seems the belief was if plastic pipe for plumbing or plastic coated cabling was used when burning it would give off toxic fumes that could endanger their lives.. Probably got some of this info from unions and other interested parties but nevertheless it is still the law in Chicago for commercial.. At least as far as plumbing is concerned.. Plastic drains are allowed for residential but conduit is still required for residential. To install in residential you just have to be creative when piping.. I can still feed a length thru a wall of studs by pulling an end thru and then realigning the pipe thru the next hole.. No kinks and looks like the studs were installed after the pipe.. You get used to it after awhile.. Sure makes it easy to expand an existing wiring job down the road when the walls have been closed up.. When I was doing just flatting I could throw up around 1000' per day.. I really liked just piping houses..


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## I_get_shocked

if Chicago does not recognize NM as a wiring method, then why do the Chicago big box orange stores sell it?


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## goose134

We're not allowed to use jake fittings either. There is no law against selling them, it's just not allowed to USE them. We can use NM for temp lighting.


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## sparks134

Here's a small remodeled bathroom in EMT.


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## user4818

You Chicago guys are funny. You put your 1-gang plaster rings on wrong.  And no wonder you can install it so fast - you don't support it near the boxes. 

Do you buy 1/2" couplings in 5-gallon pail quantity?


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## RIVETER

MDShunk said:


> http://www.steelconduit.org/pdf/Arendt presentation.pdf
> oops... forgot link....


I went through a great deal of the PDF and it does make some sense. And if the people are willing to pay for it then it's just more work for the electricians. 
PETA may have a problem with purposely breaking rat's teeth, though.


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## sparks134

Yea! I snaped the pic, before it was straped. We also put the hot terminal on top :laughing::laughing:


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