# Pool Bonding - "FLOWER PATTERN"?



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Recently we wired and bonded an 18ft above ground pool in Fall River MA. We are on the 2008 NEC.

Bonding was bare #8 copper wire. It was continuous and bonded the following: 

Pool Water in skimmer via BondSafe 680 
12 copper lugs one on every upright
Bonded Copper lug on pump

The master electrician pulling the permit decided the bonding wire was to be tied into service panel via the bell box for the twist lock receptacle 


The inspector comes today and says the following:
PASS BUT

"fix bonding in proper flower pattern"

According to the inspector, the pool bond must be in a flower pattern. Also he said we have to remove the bonding wire from the bellbox and keep it separate from the grounding electrode conductor. He claims the bond wire must be at least 18" away from the pool itself and in a flower pedal shape.

This sounds ridiculous and he did not cite any violations.

Does anyone know what he is referring to? This is the first I have heard of this flower shape BS:blink:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

The way I look at it, bringing the bond wire back to the GEC at the service panel is above and beyond. It clearly states in the codebook its not required but also doesn't state it cant be done. 

Maybe Im wrong


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Unless he can provide a local code amendment requiring this "flower pattern" it is something he created out of his own imagination and it is NOT required.

He could very well mean this to cover *680.26(B)(2) Perimeter Surfaces.*


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

I think the inspector is a leftover woodstock vet and just wants to see flowers, but I agree he is looking for 680.26(2) Your master is correct also for bonding outlet box for pump connection. Hooking to panel (in my opinion) would be wrong according to 680.26(B) I do a lot of pools in Fla. and haven't been asked to do that.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

RickB said:


> Your master is correct also for bonding outlet box for pump connection.


Seriously?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

> Equipotential bonding is not required to extend to or be attached to any panelboard, service equipment, or grounding electrode.


I cant find the part where I am violating 680.26(B) by attaching it to the panelboard's ground wire via the twist lock bell box GEC


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> I cant find the part where I am violating 680.26(B) by attaching it to the panelboard's ground wire via the twist lock bell box GEC


Who said you were?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Who said you were?






RickB said:


> I think the inspector is a leftover woodstock vet and just wants to see flowers, but I agree he is looking for 680.26(2) Your master is correct also for bonding outlet box for pump connection. *Hooking to panel (in my opinion) would be wrong according to 680.26(B)* I do a lot of pools in Fla. and haven't been asked to do that.



.......................


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

OK maybe I should't have said it would be wrong, but 680.26(B) states "shall not be required" and part (7) covers the twist lock to be bonded.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> I cant find the part where I am violating 680.26(B) by attaching it to the panelboard's ground wire via the twist lock bell box GEC


By doing this you are no more connecting it to the "panel's ground" than you are by bonding the pump motor. 
IMO bonding a bell box is a complete waste of time, money and energy. 
Same goes for extending a bonding grid wire to a panel. It's completely out of the scope of the purpose of the equipotential bonding grid.


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree with you, but the way its stated, it can be inforced.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

RickB said:


> I agree with you, but the way its stated, it can be inforced.


I certainly agree. There is nothing illegal or non-complaint about it.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I_get_shocked said:


> Recently we wired and bonded an 18ft above ground pool in *Fall River* MA.


That was your first mistake.  :laughing:


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

Any electrical energized equipment associated with pool circulation should have a solid grounding connection with bond grid. Example would be approved gr bar (not wire nuts) in pool transformer. Since a flexable cord could over time become frayed the bond should be exstended to disconnect or box feeding pump.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

RickB said:


> Any electrical energized equipment associated with pool circulation should have a solid grounding connection with bond grid. Example would be approved gr bar (not wire nuts) in pool transformer. Since a flexable cord could over time become frayed the bond should be exstended to disconnect or box feeding pump.


OK, but what does losing the circuit ground have to do with the bonding grid. 

The bonding grid is NOT, and should never be, a "back-up" circuit ground as you imply.


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

Sorry it took so long to respond to your last statement, I've been busy. I 
didn't imply that it was a backup grounding connection. 680.26(B)(6)(a) This requires a connection between bond and ground. Now I understand that this case has a light to do this, but what if light was removed, there would be no connection at all. Then you might have to depend on a cord that could fray, in a short time, to be your sole connection. If you own a 2008 Handbook, it has a good illustration on page 1046 of how the bonding grid could be (not required to be) exstended to cord connected disconnect.


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

Bonding is not grounding
Grounding is not bonding


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Inspector Grump said:


> Bonding is not grounding
> Grounding is not bonding



Explain to me the dangers of GROUNDING a bonding system such as a pool bond and why you believe they should be kept separate?

I am young and eager to learn so maybe I can be enlightened as to why its frowned upon


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## starsailor803 (Jun 10, 2009)

"Flower pattern" is an interesting way of putting it but maybe this is what he's referring to. The last two pools I've bonded were done as illustrated by my crappy little drawing here. 2008 code says you have to add a perimeter bonding wire 18" to 24" away from the pool wall all the way around. It has to be attached to the inner run of bonding(if it's a vinyl pool) at not less than 4 roughly equidistant points.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

The pool bond could induce excessive objectionable currents into the grounding system? Quick guess, but I'd put up a fight with that argument.

Each has a different purpose, different system, keep em separate. The same argument could be said for tying neutrals and grounds together at every outlet. Yes, a plumber would see them as one and the same but _we_ all know they have different purposes, different design uses and should be kept separate. 

End result, like the Offspring say, you gotta keep em separated.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

idontknow said:


> View attachment 1819
> 
> 
> The pool bond could induce excessive objectionable currents into the grounding system? Quick guess, but I'd put up a fight with that argument.
> ...


Since the pump motor is connected to both an EGC and the bonding grid, they will be connected.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

The whole idea is to not get the 2 confused. If you bury the bonding wire to 30" could you use it as a ground ring for your main ECG?


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## RickB (Aug 19, 2009)

680.26(B)(6)(a) Where there is no connection between the swimming pool bonding grid and equipment grounding system for the premises, this bonding conductor shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor circuit. - If they are to be separated, then why is this statment in the the book? Just wondering


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