# Sidework .... or other work



## N2wires (Aug 27, 2008)

I kinda get the sidework deal.... you are not supposed to do it but everyone kind of does , but IBEW doesnt like it ... but in hard times may turn the other cheek..... enlighten me on this please. As for the second part of my post, I understand that I cant even get a part time job at home depot because it relates to the type of work that we do. I read the bylaws but couldnt find a clear cut answer. I DON't want to get myself in trouble, but what is a brother to do that has kids and a mortgage, when things are slow?. do I have to go into a job that is TOTALLY unrelated to construction or can I say work for an electirical supply wholesaler or window installer? I need to suppliment my income somehow when times are rough. For example, I have the opportunity to work for a G.C. doing "whatever" work, not electrical but being a helper or maybe demo or helping to lay tile or something like that. Is that wrong? Any or all input is appreciated!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

leave the union


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

You can work for Home Depot.. However they will not hire you if they know you are an electrician of any other tradesmen for that matter.. 
They know as soon as a real job shows up... you will shove off..


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

N2wires said:


> I kinda get the sidework deal.... you are not supposed to do it but everyone kind of does , but IBEW doesnt like it ... but in hard times may turn the other cheek..... enlighten me on this please. As for the second part of my post, I understand that I cant even get a part time job at home depot because it relates to the type of work that we do. I read the bylaws but couldnt find a clear cut answer. I DON't want to get myself in trouble, but what is a brother to do that has kids and a mortgage, when things are slow?. do I have to go into a job that is TOTALLY unrelated to construction or can I say work for an electirical supply wholesaler or window installer? I need to suppliment my income somehow when times are rough. For example, I have the opportunity to work for a G.C. doing "whatever" work, not electrical but being a helper or maybe demo or helping to lay tile or something like that. Is that wrong? Any or all input is appreciated!



Look the bills and family come first.As long as your not doing electrical work for a non union contractor then I can't see what your local could get pissed at.Take the Home Depot job or supply house or whatever.
Just make sure you keep going to school and filling your obligation to the apprenticeship.

Things are not going to be slow FOREVER. Do what you need to do and don't worry about it.
As an apprentice you shouldn't really experience that much unemployment.And if you are.Get a job and pay the bills.

The only thing that seems a bit sketchy would be working for a "G.C."
That I would run by the executive board.Think about it,your laying tile and some poor tile setter apprentice is outta work.You wouldn't want him being a helper for some electrician would you?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I thought the reason unions existed is to make sure their members were swimming in money.

Huh. Guess I was wrong.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

BuzzKill said:


> leave the union


WTF? Aren't you a hardcore rat? If you are in the union, you sure do a great job of convincing everyone otherwise.


Do the cash work for the small-time GC. Learn all you can. Kiss butt, and he might teach you how he deals with the subs.


Anyone here, union or not, if you turn away side work, you are a fooking dumbass. Now is not the time to rest on yur laurels, earn every dollar you can and put it to good use. There is nothing wrong about doing work for a friend of a friend for cash. 


A 'brother' of mine does sidework for a group of friends, and he rips 'em off. They're angry, and I will be there next time moneybags needs some work done. That's how I roll, I am a people pleaser, and I will be grateful to moneybags for the cash.

Once had a GILF try to seduce me, GAWD, I wish I hadn't blown it off! If that ever happens my friend, don't turn that down!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> WTF? Aren't you a hardcore rat? If you are in the union, you sure do a great job of convincing everyone otherwise.
> 
> 
> Do the cash work for the small-time GC. Learn all you can. Kiss butt, and he might teach you how he deals with the subs.
> ...


Where is that STFU button when you need it :thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I thought the reason unions existed is to make sure their members were swimming in money.
> 
> Huh. Guess I was wrong.


Me too. There should be an investigation into this. This is shocking news.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I thought the reason unions existed is to make sure their members were swimming in money.
> 
> Huh. Guess I was wrong.


It wouldn't be the first time.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> WTF? Aren't you a hardcore rat? If you are in the union, you sure do a great job of convincing everyone otherwise.
> 
> 
> Do the cash work for the small-time GC. Learn all you can. Kiss butt, and he might teach you how he deals with the subs.
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Where is that STFU button when you need it :thumbup:


Just call Whine-1-1.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Just call Whine-1-1.


 
Another TOOL classic :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> It wouldn't be the first time.


 
I'd better join the union. Those people are super-smart, and they're never wrong.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I never understood that. If I can't pay my bills you had better bet that I'm going to go elsewhere. What good is a union anyway if there is no work? And then they want to say you can't work for an open shop. BS


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I know tradesmen that work at HD and Lowes, they love skilled workers.

I have said this before any local that would punish a man for working at any job in these tough times is comprised of A-holes


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I know tradesmen that work at HD and Lowes, they love skilled workers.
> 
> I have said this before any local that would punish a man for working at any job in these tough times is comprised of A-holes



I would have to agree.The bottom line is family comes before all.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

N2wires said:


> I kinda get the sidework deal.... you are not supposed to do it but everyone kind of does , but IBEW doesnt like it ... but in hard times may turn the other cheek..... enlighten me on this please. As for the second part of my post, I understand that I cant even get a part time job at home depot because it relates to the type of work that we do. I read the bylaws but couldnt find a clear cut answer. I DON't want to get myself in trouble, but what is a brother to do that has kids and a mortgage, when things are slow?. do I have to go into a job that is TOTALLY unrelated to construction or can I say work for an electirical supply wholesaler or window installer? I need to suppliment my income somehow when times are rough. For example, I have the opportunity to work for a G.C. doing "whatever" work, not electrical but being a helper or maybe demo or helping to lay tile or something like that. Is that wrong? Any or all input is appreciated!




Side work as a member.

Your steeling work from yourself. What,no rent,bills etc..?
The more side work you do the less work the contractor gets. Less work for you.
Turn the work over to the hall and see where it goes.

Oh,I forgot. "we don't do residential"

But if you did...you may be working more. Ahh never mind.
Home owners don't want to pay the $62.50/hr to have the dish washer removed and reinstalled.

They could remove your card. You may be better off going hungry.
'In good standing' and all.:whistling2:

By the way..... Kitchens (and the like) do burn down. So get insured.

Nothing worse than loosing your house over a $200 score.:no:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Kinda sorry*

Justy... People keep screaming how 'we non-union' people bring down the economy.
then this--


Steady as she goes..............:thumbup::thumbsup:
best of luck. Yes I'm an azz.

Nothing personal I hope ya know !!!!!!!!!


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Anyone here, union or not, if you turn away side work, you are a fooking dumbass. Now is not the time to rest on yur laurels, earn every dollar you can and put it to good use. There is nothing wrong about doing work for a friend of a friend for cash.


I don't agree with that at all. First off I don't mind others doing sidework. They are not stealing from anyone in my opinion. The real issue is that it is illegal in most areas and you could loose your journeyman license or get fined. That is the real issue. Is it worth it to risk loosing your license? If there is enough money to made by doing sidework then you should consider getting the proper licenses, bonding and insurance to do it legaly.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

You show me an electrician who does not do sidework...

He is either a foreman or higher, or he's not worth his salt.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> You show me an electrician who does not do sidework...
> 
> He is either a foreman or higher, or he's not worth his salt.



Side work aint the issue.
loosing you house is. Fortunately- I got a tax # (do I pay(claim it) no.
I screw Sammy! every corner.

Insurance is the rule!!!!!!! Protect yourself. Charge accordingly!

don't work for free. It is in 'Your' best interest.

screw the 1 man shop and you screw your self.

Market value !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. miller- no time for 'class warfare' here.

If you do the work. get paid for it.

Thats the beef here with 'side work'.

Your DRIVING DOWN YOU'R OWN WORTH !!!!


WAKE UP SPARKIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> ..........
> WAKE UP SPARKIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm awake. I just understand two-thirds of that rant.


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

*Read what this area is doing*

I've posted this before concerning sidework.


What do you think of this article? What does your area do about illegal electrical work ?? 

http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensin...ts/elc1003.pdf



 Fighting the Underground Economy

Operating outside the requirements for licensing, certification, and permitting is very tempting to some individuals and contractors working in today’s economy. The underground economy and companies attempting to operate with an unfair competitive advantage take work away from legitimate contractors and individual electricians who take pride in their work and the electrical industry.

L&I is actively doing everything possible to reduce these impacts. As a result our electrical inspectors’ efforts, assisted by the E-CORE team, we have had another successful year working proactively with the industry and combating companies and individuals not playing by the rules. 

For the 2009, calendar year the electrical program issued 9,114 electrical violations. 70% or about 6,400 were issued for unlicensed contracting, uncertified electricians, doing work with no permit, or a related issue. All these violations are considered to be a part of the underground economy.

No matter what you do, inspector, contractor, electrician, regulator, or citizen, we encourage you to do your part in reducing the negative effects of the people who choose to violate the electrical laws and compete unfairly and in many cases unsafely with the legitimate electrical industry. We welcome your referrals about this type of unfair and illegal activity. If you know or suspect this type of violation, we encourage you to notify your local L&I electrical inspection office or a member of our compliance investigative team. Contact numbers for our offices can be found at http://www.lni.wa.gov/Main/ContactIn...ns/default.asp or you can call the investigative team at (360) 902-5249.

Please do your part by helping provide a level competitive environment for legitimate contractors so they can provide safe electrical installations for their customers.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'm awake. I just understand two-thirds of that rant.


Two thirds more than I understood.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I thought the reason unions existed is to make sure their members were swimming in money.
> 
> Huh. Guess I was wrong.




Ahhhh the non-union view. :no:


Here fishy fishy....


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

brian john said:


> I know tradesmen that work at HD and Lowes, they love skilled workers.
> 
> I have said this before any local that would punish a man for working at any job in these tough times is comprised of A-holes



These "rules" aren't exactly "law". In the end its up the the Union to decide if action should be taken. I've seen workers do side work in these times and they weren't put through the system and punished. I have seen a foreman who was on a 5 week furlough start up a side job and he was caught. He was talked to and blah blah... but he still has his job. The only time I heard of this being a really big deal was during good times when a foreman for a larger shop was doing a large scale side gig using equipment that belonged to his contractor. The union wanted to take his card away but the contractor did everything in his power to save his job. And NO the contractor was not in on the side gig.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Ahhhh the non-union view. :no:
> 
> 
> Here fishy fishy....


 
So you join the union because: ?

A. it's fashionable.
B. they've got a cool logo.
C. 'cuz my dad told me to.
D. shîts and giggles.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> ...........when a foreman for a larger shop was doing a large scale side gig using equipment that belonged to his contractor. ............. And NO the contractor was not in on the side gig.


That's more than just doing side work. That's theft, pure and simple.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So you join the union because: ?
> 
> A. it's fashionable.
> B. they've got a cool logo.
> ...



Nope... I joined my local because the pay was better than most other jobs... The benefits were better. My overall health and retirement is better. When I DO find myself out of work I have a nifty little fund I can collect from so I don't have to worry about paying my bills. I could go on. And no... I am NOT swimming in money. My pay is on par, actually just below, with the cost of living in NYC.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That's more than just doing side work. That's theft, pure and simple.



I agree. And I think he should have been thrown out. And fired. But it does go to show you that contractors do have more say than some would like to think when it comes to unions. It was the contractor that saved him... the union wanted him out.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

While working on a bid for the second phase of a major public school project, I had to do a mandatory walk through with the owner and ran into the other electrical contractor and his crew on site doing the first phase. This outfit is stanchly non-union, but I recognized about half his crew as being members of the local, as they had worked for me before.

While I can’t fault any man for taking care of his family and paying his bills, I also can’t help but to see the hypocrisy of the “brothers” who are willing to work for 40% less for my competitors but are totally unwilling to cut me a break in hard times.

…and the “brothers” wonder where their market share is going.


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## sparky131 (Mar 11, 2010)

I was told once that the hall actually told one guy "at least it ain't going to the Non-union" when he tried to turn a guy in for side work. FIGURES

It is a fine line, we all walk it . Technically if you get dinner for fixing a switch it is "pay" for sidework. As far as legals go Notro71 is on track, some states do allow you to "help" immediate family without a contractor license. 

If you can do it on your own, get a contractors license IMO.


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## sparky131 (Mar 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So you join the union because: ?
> 
> A. it's fashionable.
> B. they've got a cool logo.
> ...


 
E: none of the above.

I joined because I believe in doing quality work. Read the mission of the IBEW. I am not saying there are not polatics, but I know for fact I can do more work because of my training, for cheaper because it right the first time. Several generals in Portland OR have stated they will pay more for Union because it saves them money.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

sparky131 said:


> E: none of the above.
> 
> I joined because I believe in doing quality work. Read the mission of the IBEW. I am not saying there are not politics, but I know for fact I can do more work *because of my training, for cheaper because it right the first time.* Several generals in Portland OR have stated they will pay more for Union because it saves them money.


I agree with this premice, especially when it comes to large scale construction. Don't know what the average size project is that most here participate on, but a large scale, portable workforce is formidable.

Think about going around and having to take over a large project and needing to know where your workers skill level might be. Odds are, best training, at all levels, is available through the IBEW. We are not a perfect outfit, but for everyone who plans on doing electrical work as a career should consider how solvent the place they work for is. With the IBEW, it doesn't matter who you work for that is a signatory shop, the money follows the man, doesn't matter if the contractor folds his door tomorrow.

As far as sidework? Hey, if you don't want me competing against you Mr. Contractor, the easiest solution is to hire me. I'm not in a race for the bottom, just a reasonable rate for me, and mine. So call the hall, build a team.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

sparky131 said:


> E: none of the above.
> 
> I joined because I believe in doing quality work. Read the mission of the IBEW. I am not saying there are not polatics, but I know for fact I can do more work because of my training, for cheaper because it right the first time. Several generals in Portland OR have stated they will pay more for Union because it saves them money.


 
:lol:

I think you copied and pasted that off your locals website.

I just blew soda threw my nose.

Thanks for the laughs :laughing::laughing::laughing:.

Ok now that I am done laughing I smell something. 


Smells like Bullsh!t


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky131 said:


> E: none of the above.
> 
> I joined because I believe in doing quality work. .........


And there we can agree. I like to think I do quality work as well. I'm not going to say I the best damn electrician in the world, but I figure if no one's screaming at me about this or that or the other thing, I must be doing it right.

What's strange is, I'm not doing anything different now working for myself than I was years ago working for 'the man'. I still run NM the same, I still bend pipe the same, I still make up boxes the same, I could identify a panel I trimmed out 15 years ago just by looking at it.

But today, I don't have a forman, a supervisor, a project manager, a regional manager, etc etc, breathing down my neck. My customers and the builders I work for are all happy campers.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

More than side work I mean any work that allows one to keep their house.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

You know that whole union is better because we do it right the first time, and are well trained, and safer and bla bla bal…we all have heard it, and it does not really make a good sales pitch to anyone other than yourselves.

I compete against open shops that are the same size and even bigger than me that do just as good if not better work than me and they do so without all the headaches, heartaches and at 30-40% less wages than I pay with IBEW.

The days of telling my customers that my labor is better are long gone, it just does not sell my company any more than you are selling me on it. Also you are not cheaper in my area, IBEW is a solid a 40% higher wage package than the open market I compete against and to top that off a lot of those well trained bench jockeys from the hall are gladly working those side jobs for market price while they brag to me about how much money they could save me if I would just hire them a build a team.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

sparky131 said:


> E: none of the above.
> 
> I joined because I believe in doing quality work. Read the mission of the IBEW. I am not saying there are not polatics, *but I know for fact I can do more work because of my training, for cheaper because it right the first time. * Several generals in Portland OR have stated they will pay more for Union because it saves them money.



God that is funnier each time I read it. :laughing:


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

The only "side work" I have ever done has been for friends and neighbors and for the most part free.. (labor wise) Sometimes they did stuff a few extra bucks or beer into my work boots. :laughing:


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Why does one choose Union? 
Main reason is so you don't become homeless if you get hurt or sick.

Better work? I don't think so.. Better tools.. Yes. Bigger jobs.. Yes.
A ton of guys available if job gets too far behind or unforeseen problems arise. 

Biggest downfall? There are a fair amount of guys that get away with doing very little that would not survive in a open shop.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

One claim that the union contractors can almost never make is that they are _cheaper_ than non-union contractors. Maybe if they get help from the local with their job fund to underbid a non-union shop, but without help they are universally more expensive.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> God that is funnier each time I read it. :laughing:


In some markets his statement may be true, but basically this is a mantra taught in the first few weeks of apprenticeship school.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> WTF? Aren't you a hardcore rat?


Uhm.....yeah.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Side-work is a hassle more often than not. 

I like the extra cash, but the HO's are a pain in the ass. I only work for friends of the family as such, and maybe friends of friends, people I have dinner with after the fact.


But in times like these, it's downright ******** to turn away money! 

Don't want to get busted? Don't do commercial. Doing a commercial side-job just feels wrong. Not to mention having to buy boxes of fittings really adds to the heap in the garage. (See picture of shelves in Peter D's garage.)

Another tip: casually inquire to the HO about how they feel about lawyers. If they respond that a lawyer should hang from every telephone pole, you've got a great customer!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I like the extra cash, but the HO's are a pain in the ass.


You just need better HOs


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Why does one choose Union?
> Main reason is so you don't become homeless if you get hurt or sick.


I don't know where you got that idea, the one where Ma-IBEW will take care of you for life. I happen to know two guys, one with an injury and the other with chronic health problems and both are in serious jeopardy of losing their homes. In fact IBEW has not done JACK for them and could care less is they live on the streets, the only reason they are not homeless now because I (the contractor) am paying one guy's house payment and the other guy has a family that is keeping him afloat. IBEW is NOT your brothers keeper. 



> Better work? I don't think so.. Better tools.. Yes. Bigger jobs.. Yes.


 Quit kidding yourself.... there is no better work, its all the same. Yes you may get better tools, but here in Texas, non-union shops own this market and do work just as big as us union shops.



> A ton of guys available if job gets too far behind or unforeseen problems arise.


 True as a labor service, IBEW is handy to call, but you still have to sort through the applicants and pick the ones you want. Any contractor who just takes whomever the takes the call is a fool.

However I read your comment a second way, instead of [guys available for...]; I see [lets load this job up an milk it...]. I am fighting that one right now, where they hall is working overtime to convince my labor they are behind and need help and to call me to put a call in for more labor.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Opinions Vary..


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

sparky131 said:


> E: none of the above.
> 
> I joined because I believe in doing quality work. Read the mission of the IBEW. I am not saying there are not polatics, but I know for fact I can do more work because of my training, for cheaper because it right the first time. Several generals in Portland OR have stated they will pay more for Union because it saves them money.


I was in the union, and have read the mission statement and lots of other union info. Never read the part about handing out cards to untrained people to convert a large EC to union. That didnt seem right to me, and I didnt like "koolaid"


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Quite obviously the main reason why electricians join the IBEW is so they can put lots of stickers on their hard hats and lunch boxes.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Quite obviously the main reason why electricians join the IBEW is so they can put lots of stickers on their hard hats and lunch boxes.



You forgot about putting up large inflatable rats.:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Quite obviously the main reason why electricians join the IBEW is so they can put lots of stickers on their hard hats and lunch boxes.


 
Here they are running a TV commercial about how "they" are your friends and neighbors, helping the community with free work like Habitat For Humanity


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Here they are running a TV commercial about how "they" are your friends and neighbors, helping the community with free work like Habitat For Humanity


This message is hidden because Black4Truck is on your ignore list.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> This message is hidden because Black4Truck is on your ignore list.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> This message is hidden because Black4Truck is on your ignore list.


This message is hidden because Peter D., along with all the other usernames he goes by, are on your ignore list.

As a pre-emptory move, all possible future usernames he may try are also added to your ignore list automatically.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> This message is hidden because Peter D., along with all the other usernames he goes by, are on your ignore list.
> 
> As a pre-emptory move, all possible future usernames he may try are also added to your ignore list automatically.


I guess you didn't get the message that I don't post under other usernames.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I guess you didn't get the message that I don't post under other usernames.


Yea right.. cough cough cough cough cough cough cough


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

This message is hidden because Black4Truck is on your ignore list.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I don't know where you got that idea, the one where Ma-IBEW will take care of you for life. I happen to know two guys, one with an injury and the other with chronic health problems and both are in serious jeopardy of losing their homes. In fact IBEW has not done JACK for them and could care less is they live on the streets, the only reason they are not homeless now because I (the contractor) am paying one guy's house payment and the other guy has a family that is keeping him afloat. IBEW is NOT your brothers keeper.



You need to stop generalizing. Just because you have a couple of guy's that your helping out, that the local supposedly forgot about doesn't make it a rule for the WHOLE IBEW.

I'll tell you what my local did for me.I had shoulder surgery back in the beginning of the year,I've been out because of the injury since early December.

I filed for workers comp.My claim was denied.My local got me a lawyer.I also get disability checks from the local and there carrying my benefits that cover me and my pregnant wife.

With out the local I would have been f*cked.My shoulder was to the point were moving a ceiling tile was painful.What would have happened to me if I were open shop?Would my good "merit" have gotten the contractor to help me out?Would they have offered to cover my insurance for 7,8 months?Or would they have forgotten about me?

I for one am thankful for my local each and every day.

On the up side it looks like I'm going back to work a couple of months earlier then expected,the PT is paying off.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

slickvic277,

A workeman's comp claim is a far cry from Ma-IBEW taking care of people for life as was GENERALIZED in the post I was replying to.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> slickvic277,
> 
> A workeman's comp claim is a far cry from Ma-IBEW taking care of people for life as was GENERALIZED in the post I was replying to.


Workers comp will dump you as soon as they can find a way to deny the claim.. 
My local has a full time legal dept. just to deal with workers comp. 

The IBEW has supported me.. And if my problem goes away it will be front page news..


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

Do what you have to do in hard times, just don't take on commercial work normally done by your local. Make your clients aware of your union background and do a first class job, be clean and neat and efficient. It acts as positive PR for unions in the long term. You aren't hurting your union doing residential services and basements.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

gmbjr said:


> Do what you have to do in hard times, just don't take on commercial work normally done by your local. Make your clients aware of your union background and do a first class job, be clean and neat and efficient. It acts as positive PR for unions in the long term. You aren't hurting your union doing residential services and basements.


Once again, back the union, promote the union, take on any non-union work illegally, screw everyone else, especially the non-union one man operations trying the put food on the table for his kids. Who do you think does the small projects like service change outs and basements. We jump through the hoops to be legal and then here comes the union boys with there nose in the air to take the work illegally, apparently its ok in your eyes as long as it doesn't hurt the unionized Borg Collective. Do all union drones think alike and promote illegal activities? It sure seems that way from the kind of posting that goes on around here. :no:


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

Grimlock said:


> Once again, back the union, promote the union, take on any non-union work illegally, screw everyone else, especially the non-union one man operations trying the put food on the table for his kids. Who do you think does the small projects like service change outs and basements. We jump through the hoops to be legal and then here comes the union boys with there nose in the air to take the work illegally, apparently its ok in your eyes as long as it doesn't hurt the unionized Borg Collective. Do all union drones think alike and promote illegal activities? It sure seems that way from the kind of posting that goes on around here. :no:


who said anything about illegally? It costs only $50 to become registered with the state and under $1k for a million bucks insurance coverage. But even without that, so many non union "contractors" are not registered, insured, or trained at the residential level your argument just doesn't matter. Most of the electrical work done on additions, basement fit outs and remodels are done by the GC himself by a carpenter, not even an electrician. But I wouldn't expect too much knowledge of the big picture from a Texan.....


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

gmbjr said:


> who said anything about illegally? It costs only $50 to become registered with the state and under $1k for a million bucks insurance coverage. But even without that, so many non union "contractors" are not registered, insured, or trained at the residential level your argument just doesn't matter. Most of the electrical work done on additions, basement fit outs and remodels are done by the GC himself by a carpenter, not even an electrician.* But I wouldn't expect too much knowledge of the big picture from a Texan*.....


 
What ever that’s supposed to mean , I'm not even from Texas, I just live here.

BTW, you are pushing my BS detector into overdrive:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Quite obviously the main reason why electricians join the IBEW is so they can put lots of stickers on their hard hats and lunch boxes.


The IBEW logo sure is cool!

There's a bunch of white guys with shaved heads who signed onto another organization just because that logo looked cool too!


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> The IBEW logo sure is cool!
> 
> There's a bunch of white guys with shaved heads who signed onto another organization just because that logo looked cool too!



Oh yeah? Well... my dad can beat up your dad!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> The IBEW logo sure is cool!
> 
> There's a bunch of white guys with shaved heads who signed onto another organization just because that logo looked cool too!


 
You must mean the Coneheads :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Peter D
> Quite obviously the main reason why electricians join the IBEW is so they can put lots of stickers on their hard hats and lunch boxes


I WILL NOT allow IBEW stickers on my trucks for various reasons. I made one guy take a 12" circular sticker off, he said union labor bought and paid for that truck and the sticker should stay (he did remove it). Funny thing is the last I heard he was working open shop.


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

When things are slow I would see no problem with doing some side work for friends, and friends of friends. I wouldn't try to open up shop or start putting ads in the paper or anything... I can't say I have never done side work, but it is frowned upon. 

And for everyone else yes we do like our logo, our union is designed to keep us swimming in money, and if your worth your salt your still working even when things are rough.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

knomore said:


> When things are slow I would see no problem with doing some side work for friends, and friends of friends. I wouldn't try to open up shop or start putting ads in the paper or anything... I can't say I have never done side work, but it is frowned upon.
> 
> And for everyone else yes we do like our logo, our union is designed to keep us swimming in money, and if your worth your salt your still working even when things are rough.


I know of 700 brothers in Philly myself included who take offense to that last statement. Are you implying we aren't worth our salt? Are you clueless? Do you own a TV? Theres no ****ing work, dirtbag.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

gmbjr said:


> Do what you have to do in hard times, just don't take on commercial work normally done by your local. Make your clients aware of your union background and do a first class job, be clean and neat and efficient. It acts as positive PR for unions in the long term. You aren't hurting your union doing residential services and basements.


What a load of horse ****. Typical union attitude. ME ME ME screw everyone else.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

What makes it worse is that if the employer broke one small union rule they would want him dead. When the shoe is on the other foot the union rules mean nothing.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> What makes it worse is that if the employer broke one small union rule they would want him dead. When the shoe is on the other foot the union rules mean nothing.


And of course if a non union shop was doing work the "belonged" to the union...look out.


In my view, nothing but a bunch of corrupt selfish hypocritical thugs.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

I have been reading this thread and frankly I think this is all pathetic. The idea is make up you mind and stop the bull****. You are either union and believe in it, or your union and just milking the system for what you can get while you can get it or your non union and willing to do what you have to practice your trade. If you are really union and whole heartily believe in it as I have heard many of you say in the past then the only thing you can do is either suck it up, and try and help the union promote more work, or get a job outside the electrical trade to make some money until the union can use you again and don’t lower your standards and steal the work of the people you condemned a year or two ago. On the other hand if all you wanted to do is have the union back you so you can milk the situation which most likely make you the type of person with little or no scruples in the first place go out and take electrical work become what you condemned until times are better then just jump right back on that band wagon.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> And of course if a non union shop was doing work the "belonged" to the union...look out.
> 
> 
> In my view, nothing but a bunch of corrupt selfish hypocritical thugs.



Unfortunately that's a stigma unions have. Is there corruption in some unions? Of course there is. But isn't there also corruption in the non-union world? Companies like Lehman Bros, Halliburton, Xerox and World Com come to mind... non of them were union corruption and/or scandals.

As far as calling union members and their bosses thugs. That's another stigma. You're talking about actions that were taken many years ago. But of course no one ever talks about the anti-union thugs that were sent out by corporations to "deal" with striking workers back in the day. Today there are no thugs that crack heads... on either side. It's all done with lawyers now.

I notice an abundant amount of generalizing on this forum. It goes both way... union and non-union. And to be honest with you it's pretty childish. It's usually the same players saying the same nonsense. 

:no:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Unfortunately that's a stigma unions have. Is there corruption in some unions? Of course there is. But isn't there also corruption in the non-union world? Companies like Lehman Bros, Halliburton, Xerox and World Com come to mind... non of them were union corruption and/or scandals.
> 
> As far as calling union members and their bosses thugs. That's another stigma. You're talking about actions that were taken many years ago. But of course no one ever talks about the anti-union thugs that were sent out by corporations to "deal" with striking workers back in the day. Today there are no thugs that crack heads... on either side. It's all done with lawyers now.
> 
> ...


I usually don't post much in these union discussions but I can't pass this by. I have experienced this "stigma" you speak of and it wasn't years and years ago. I am an electrical contractor, non-union, and have been for 25 years. 10 years ago I was wiring a new optometry office in my town when a guy who said he was the BA from the nearest IBEW hall(another town 20 miles away)approached me on my jobsite and started a conversation with me by asking, "You want to know how you can put the owner's nuts in a vise and see a lot more money every payday?" I was not impressed. When he found out I was the owner he became hostile and started accusing me of robbing my "brothers" and stealing food right out of their children's mouths. He ended up making a lot of vague threats which prompted the GC to hire night security until the job was completed. This BA returned several times and sat in his car along with 2 other gentlemen across the street and watched the job. Nothing else happened until about a month after the practice opened. The staff showed up one Monday morning to find the door locks super glued and "RAT" written in soap on the front door glass. 
At no time during my encounter with this BA did he list the benefits of joining the IBEW. He was only interested in telling me what a raw deal I was getting and what a low-life, greedy demon my boss had to be if he was running an open shop. He obviously didn't know what he was talking about. He was just spewing stereotypical propaganda. Up to that point I didn't have a necessarily bad perception of the union. I have 2 brothers and my mother who were members of the UAW and my father-in-law is a 35 year member of the IBEW. I have always had a live and let live attitude towards the IBEW in this area. Union shops aren't even interested in bidding the work I do until times get slow like they are now and like they were when I had my run-in with the BA. I don't think the union electrician is picked on at this forum any more or less than the non-union electrician is disrespected. It is a free country. Just don't hate on someone because they didn't choose the same flavor of ice cream you did.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

amptech said:


> I usually don't post much in these union discussions but I can't pass this by. I have experienced this "stigma" you speak of and it wasn't years and years ago. I am an electrical contractor, non-union, and have been for 25 years. 10 years ago I was wiring a new optometry office in my town when a guy who said he was the BA from the nearest IBEW hall(another town 20 miles away)approached me on my jobsite and started a conversation with me by asking, "You want to know how you can put the owner's nuts in a vise and see a lot more money every payday?" I was not impressed. When he found out I was the owner he became hostile and started accusing me of robbing my "brothers" and stealing food right out of their children's mouths. He ended up making a lot of vague threats which prompted the GC to hire night security until the job was completed. This BA returned several times and sat in his car along with 2 other gentlemen across the street and watched the job. Nothing else happened until about a month after the practice opened. The staff showed up one Monday morning to find the door locks super glued and "RAT" written in soap on the front door glass.
> At no time during my encounter with this BA did he list the benefits of joining the IBEW. He was only interested in telling me what a raw deal I was getting and what a low-life, greedy demon my boss had to be if he was running an open shop. He obviously didn't know what he was talking about. He was just spewing stereotypical propaganda. Up to that point I didn't have a necessarily bad perception of the union. I have 2 brothers and my mother who were members of the UAW and my father-in-law is a 35 year member of the IBEW. I have always had a live and let live attitude towards the IBEW in this area. Union shops aren't even interested in bidding the work I do until times get slow like they are now and like they were when I had my run-in with the BA. I don't think the union electrician is picked on at this forum any more or less than the non-union electrician is disrespected. It is a free country. Just don't hate on someone because they didn't choose the same flavor of ice cream you did.


Again... it's a generalization of a particular organization. Like I said it goes both ways. For ever negative experience one side goes through the other side can match it. Does that mean the root cause it one particular side? No. Of course not. Your experience may differ from the next guy's. For example a non-union contractor was on a site my shop was working on. They were working nights. They weren't electricians they were carpenters. The job was rather uneventful. There was no "GET THEM OFF THE JOB OR ELSE" going on. Anyway... the job was pretty much all non-union except for us and the steam fitters. So... one day we opened up a gang box and noticed it was wet inside and smelled of piss. Ok... so it happened again. And we found out it was the carpenters. We had the security contract and we installed all the video cameras. So we had it on tape who it did. Needless to say everything in those gang boxes were replaced with brand new tools. 

Do I blame them because they were non-union? No. They did that because they were morons. 

So like you said... "Just don't hate on someone because they didn't choose the same flavor of ice cream you did".


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Again... it's a generalization of a particular organization. Like I said it goes both ways. For ever negative experience one side goes through the other side can match it..........


Care to provide a link where any union electrician on this forum says his locks were super-glued, "Slug" was painted on his window, whatever vandalism you can think of........knowing full well it was a non-union electrician that did it?

I'm not saying there isn't.... I just saying I can't remember one.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Care to provide a link where any union electrician on this forum says his locks were super-glued, "Slug" was painted on his window, whatever vandalism you can think of........knowing full well it was a non-union electrician that did it?
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't.... I just saying I can't remember one.



I just posted an example... It happened to my shop. Are you telling me if it hasn't been posted before my experience it means it's not a valid argument? 

But if you really want to know... do a search. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> I just posted an example... It happened to my shop....



And just like every time some non-union member posts a bad experience with the union, they're either called a liar or told 'it's not like that everywhere'.



Chris21 said:


> Are you telling me if it hasn't been posted before my experience it means it's not a valid argument?
> 
> 
> But if you really want to know... do a search. :thumbup:


You made the claim. It's not on me to prove or disprove it. Your post is the only one I can recall about problems with non-union people.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And just like every time some non-union member posts a bad experience with the union, they're either called a liar or told 'it's not like that everywhere'.
> 
> 
> 
> You made the claim. It's not on me to prove or disprove it. Your post is the only one I can recall about problems with non-union people.



Care to provide a link where I, a union electrician, called a non-union members allegation as being false? 

You're no better than the union member calling the non-union member a liar. You're doing the same thing.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Chris21 said:


> Care to provide a link where I, a union electrician, called a non-union members allegation as being false?
> 
> You're no better than the union member calling the non-union member a liar. You're doing the same thing.


 
:sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Care to provide a link where I, a union electrician, called a non-union members allegation as being false? ..........


See, now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said you did any such thing.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> See, now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said you did any such thing.



See? This is why there is no end to these silly arguments. 

In your original message you asked me:

Originally Posted by *480sparky*  
Care to provide a link where any union electrician on this forum says his locks were super-glued, "Slug" was painted on his window, whatever vandalism you can think of........knowing full well it was a non-union electrician that did it?


I'm a union electrician.

You generalized. So I decided to do the same. :no:


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> :sleep1:



If you're tired why not go to bed?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> ...........You generalized. So I decided to do the same. :no:


Asking for a specific occurance isn't 'generalization'. It's quite the opposite.

I was asking for an instance where a union electrician had a bad experience with a non-union one. You provided only one such incident..... yours. That's about as far from a generalization as you can get.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Asking for a specific occurance isn't 'generalization'. It's quite the opposite.
> 
> I was asking for an instance where a union electrician had a bad experience with a non-union one. You provided only one such incident..... yours. That's about as far from a generalization as you can get.



:no:

I hear the catfish in Saylorville lake are a pretty good catch.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> :no:
> 
> I hear the catfish in Saylorville lake are a pretty good catch.



If frogs had pockets, they'd carry guns so they wouldn't have to be afraid of snakes.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If frogs had pockets, they'd carry guns so they wouldn't have to be afraid of snakes.



You come up with that one all by yourself? 

You just like to hear, or in this case see, yourself speak. You post just to post. You make no valid argument in a debate. You just reword and rephrase what you wish... even if it's another posters post.

So when am I going to be added to your ignore list... you know the list that includes people that call out your arrogance and toy with you?


I've actually seen a frog eat a snake. No guns or other weapons involved.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> You come up with that one all by yourself?
> 
> You just like to hear, or in this case see, yourself speak. You post just to post. You make no valid argument in a debate. You just reword and rephrase what you wish... even if it's another posters post.
> ...........



You actually come up with all that dribble yourself, or did you have to take a break to Google it?

It's kind of hard to make a point with you, valid or not, because all you seem to do is twist around what I say to suit yourself and your agenda.




Chris21 said:


> So when am I going to be added to your ignore list... you know the list that includes people that call out your arrogance and toy with you?.......


So you admit you've made no valid points yourself?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You actually come up with all that dribble yourself, or did you have to take a break to Google it?
> 
> It's kind of hard to make a point with you, valid or not, because all you seem to do is twist around what I say to suit yourself and your agenda.
> 
> ...



:laughing::laughing:

My agenda? Google my dribble? C'mon peanut... you could do better than that. You just, like you've been doing, said to me what I've been saying to you.

:laughing::laughing:

Oh man that's great... my "agenda"... 

But seriously... I like your feistiness... it's a turn on. What do you say we meet up at the extended stay just off the 80... and we can compare tools. :brows:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> But seriously... I like your feistiness... it's a turn on. What do you say we meet up at the extended stay just off the 80... and we can compare tools. :brows:



If that's your way of trying to continue our 'debate', consider it closed.

It's painfully obvious you have nothing further to add. This always seems to happen in these types of conversations when one realizes they don't have anything valid to say....... just change the subject instead.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If that's your way of trying to continue our 'debate', consider it closed.
> 
> It's painfully obvious you have nothing further to add. This always seems to happen in these types of conversations when one realizes they don't have anything valid to say....... just change the subject instead.



You haven't been debating. You've been rambling.

I'll amuse you... so what's my agenda? And I want details, links, references and eye witness accounts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> You haven't been debating. You've been rambling.
> 
> I'll amuse you... so what's my agenda? And I want details, links, references and eye witness accounts.



Research it yourself. That's what you wanted me to do.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Will you two girls get a room already?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Research it yourself. That's what you wanted me to do.



And yet again you offer no validity to anything you claim.

Thanks for my daily dose of laughs. :thumbup:

Sooooo... we still on for some one on one at the extended stay...? Just wondering.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Will you two girls get a room already?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Will you two girls get a room already?



I already made that offer... but he's being coy about it. Hopefully he's not catholic. I don't want any "oh no you can't put it in there" crap.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> Again... it's a generalization of a particular organization. ....


 I am not so sure you understand what the word [generalization] means, Amptech gave a description of a specific indecent.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I am not so sure you understand what the word [generalization] means, Amptech gave a description of a specific indecent.



I'm actually well aware of the definition(s)...

Including but no limited... to derive or induce from particulars, to give general applicability, to make vague or indefinite statements.

This conversation was mostly based on the last definition.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> I'm actually well aware of the definition(s)...
> 
> Including but no limited... to derive or induce from particulars, to give general applicability, to make vague or indefinite statements.
> 
> This conversation was mostly based on the last definition.


 Please refer to post #79, there was nothing vague or generalized about his story.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Please refer to post #79, there was nothing vague or generalized about his story.



His story involved the IBEW in his area. The local in his area is accused of vandalizing property. The non-union carpenters in my story is accused of vandalizing property. The generalization lies in my original message that he replied to. Which was in response to the following message:

Originally Posted by *electricmanscott*  
_And of course if a non union shop was doing work the "belonged" to the union...look out.


In my view, nothing but a bunch of corrupt selfish hypocritical thugs. 
_


The generalization is when one has a negative experience with a person(s) that is part of a group or organization then the entire group or organization conducts themselves in the exact same way.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Again... it's a generalization of a particular organization. Like I said it goes both ways. For ever negative experience one side goes through the other side can match it. Does that mean the root cause it one particular side? No. Of course not. Your experience may differ from the next guy's. For example a non-union contractor was on a site my shop was working on. They were working nights. They weren't electricians they were carpenters. The job was rather uneventful. There was no "GET THEM OFF THE JOB OR ELSE" going on. Anyway... the job was pretty much all non-union except for us and the steam fitters. So... one day we opened up a gang box and noticed it was wet inside and smelled of piss. Ok... so it happened again. And we found out it was the carpenters. We had the security contract and we installed all the video cameras. So we had it on tape who it did. Needless to say everything in those gang boxes were replaced with brand new tools.
> 
> Do I blame them because they were non-union? No. They did that because they were morons.
> 
> So like you said... "Just don't hate on someone because they didn't choose the same flavor of ice cream you did".


I think there is a distinction to be made here. I have heard union electricians run their mouths trash-talking non-union electricians plenty over the years but I take it for just that: individual door knobs running their mouths. Every occupation, union or not, has more than their fair share of blow-hards. The experience I had was with a representative of the IBEW. He is charged by the union of being the face of the IBEW in the field. I don't believe the BA committed any vandalism to the job himself and I don't accuse him of facilitating the vandalism that occurred. But I will hang around his neck the responsibility of his words when he delivered his sales pitch to me. Those were his words and he represents the IBEW so by default, those are the sentiments of his organization. The door swings both ways. I am fully aware that I represent my company and what comes out of my mouth has consequences. My point being, if the IBEW doesn't support the tact this BA takes to the field, then they should get rid of him. If they don't get rid of him, it should be assumed he has the support of his hall in what he says. And yes, he is still there carrying the same torch.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

amptech said:


> I think there is a distinction to be made here. I have heard union electricians run their mouths trash-talking non-union electricians plenty over the years but I take it for just that: individual door knobs running their mouths. Every occupation, union or not, has more than their fair share of blow-hards. The experience I had was with a representative of the IBEW. He is charged by the union of being the face of the IBEW in the field. I don't believe the BA committed any vandalism to the job himself and I don't accuse him of facilitating the vandalism that occurred. But I will hang around his neck the responsibility of his words when he delivered his sales pitch to me. Those were his words and he represents the IBEW so by default, those are the sentiments of his organization. The door swings both ways. I am fully aware that I represent my company and what comes out of my mouth has consequences. My point being, if the IBEW doesn't support the tact this BA takes to the field, then they should get rid of him. If they don't get rid of him, it should be assumed he has the support of his hall in what he says. And yes, he is still there carrying the same torch.



First off... let me say this. I thank you and appreciate the fact that your response was mature and lacked any attack whatsoever.

As a union member I do apologize for that encounter. I can honestly say I have never witnessed anything like that in my own local. Times are different. I don't deny the fact that things were done very differently years ago. 10 years is actually a ways back if you think about it. 

But I can't agree with you when you say the hall supports him. Unless there is any proof whatsoever and it was brought to the attention to the Local with proof in hand you can't really expect the local to get rid of him. Even more so was a police report ever made?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> As far as calling union members and their bosses thugs. That's another stigma. You're talking about actions that were taken many years ago.


Yeah these all look many years old. 











I do understand that the source for some of these are bias, but even if 50% if it is acuate it us still pretty bad.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah these all look many years old.
> 
> I do understand that the source for some of these are bias, but even if 50% if it is acuate it us still pretty bad.



C'mon, Bob. Everyone else knows those are all staged. That *never* happens.:thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

My "generalization" of this "organization" is based on every interaction I have had with that organization and their members. All of which is negative.

Some of it is on this very site. Corrupt, selfish, hypocritical thugs is actually a good description. Sure it doesn't apply to everybody in the "organization" but it certainly applies to the most vocal among the group.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I hope the guy in the last video is living a horrifically painful rectal cancer existence. What an absolutely worthless piece of garbage. My sympathy to those who are suffering undeservedly.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> I hope the guy in the last video is living a horrifically painful rectal cancer existence.


Sounds like the voice of experience


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Corrupt, selfish, hypocritical thugs is actually a good description.


Wow, look, I selectively quoted your post to describe tea-partiers.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah these all look many years old.
> 
> .....
> 
> I do understand that the source for some of these are bias, but even if 50% if it is acuate it us still pretty bad.


No video required, ask an organized hand about how much better he's done for himself in the trade after he signed on.

lets see...
pension,
health benefits,
good wage,
you know the drill.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Then there's the other side... 

There's Coke... 
http://www.colombiasolidarity.org/node/10

Then there's good old Walmart

http://www.walmartworkersrights.org/


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> No video required, ask an organized hand about how much better he's done for himself in the trade after he signed on.
> 
> lets see...
> pension,
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Organizing was the single best move I ever made.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Organizing was the single best move I ever made.


Chances are you do well because you do not have the 'me-first' entitlement mentality.

Speaking of 'me-first' entitlement mentalities...  some unemployed John stole MY work, which belongs to ME, because I say so! :no: 

Lowest overhead wins? :wallbash:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> First off... let me say this. I thank you and appreciate the fact that your response was mature and lacked any attack whatsoever.
> 
> As a union member I do apologize for that encounter. I can honestly say I have never witnessed anything like that in my own local. Times are different. I don't deny the fact that things were done very differently years ago. 10 years is actually a ways back if you think about it.
> 
> But I can't agree with you when you say the hall supports him. Unless there is any proof whatsoever and it was brought to the attention to the Local with proof in hand you can't really expect the local to get rid of him. Even more so was a police report ever made?


I, along with 3 other open shop owners did call the local and report what this BA was doing and how he was doing it that summer. The response was "so what?" Only after a few businessmen who were contracting work from us called and complained did it quietly go away, for a while. So yes, I maintain that since the local president and staff, along with members who lived in our town knew about this BA and his campaign script and 10 years later it still continues, he has the support of his local behind his practices. My father-in-law was the steward in his local at the time(different local) and knew this BA. He approached him and asked him to back off. The BA just laughed and told my father-in-law that this stuff just comes with allowing a daughter to marry a rat.
Don't get me wrong here. I have a great working relationship with 2 union shops in my county. We borrow equipment off of each other and share info quite often. I throw large projects their way when I can't get to them and they refer small stuff to me as well. I've never had a working person from the IBEW disparage me for being non-union. Only the occasional suit.That's why when we've had lengthy, heated threads on this forum concerning the union vs non-union subject I don't get too irritated by the "Union Only" posters who always deny any indiscretion by the union and refuse to give any credit to non-union guys. I seriously doubt any of them actually work for a living. They justify their worth with their talk.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> What makes it worse is that if the employer broke one small union rule they would want him dead. When the shoe is on the other foot the union rules mean nothing.


Your statement is my story. The union shop I worked for was 40 miles away. We were doing a store right next door to my house. We got busted for me not driving to the shop and going to work in a Co. Truck. They made me drive 80 miles a day to work 1/2 mile from from my house. Six months later the shop I worked for merged with a non union shop so the union gave a bunch of cards outs to untrained people. 

Its not for me.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Voltech said:


> Your statement is my story. The union shop I worked for was 40 miles away. We were doing a store right next door to my house. We got busted for me not driving to the shop and going to work in a Co. Truck. They made me drive 80 miles a day to work 1/2 mile from from my house. Six months later the shop I worked for merged with a non union shop so the union gave a bunch of cards outs to untrained people.
> 
> Its not for me.



Wow, that is pretty excessive.:blink:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Voltech said:


> They made me drive 80 miles a day to work 1/2 mile from from my house.


Sounds like the biggest load of BS I've heard today.

Working for a union shop is no different than working for a non-union shop, with some exceptions:

you don't provide your own powertools and batteries,
you take home a bigger check,
and you're not surrounded by suckups and rumpkissers begging to work in the office.
That's about it.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Sounds like the biggest load of BS I've heard today.
> 
> Working for a union shop is no different than working for a non-union shop, with some exceptions:
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Sounds like the biggest load of BS I've heard today.
> 
> Working for a union shop is no different than working for a non-union shop, with some exceptions:
> 
> ...



You're roughly 33.33% correct.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Voltech said:


> The union shop I worked for was 40 miles away. We were doing a store right next door to my house. We got busted for me not driving to the shop and going to work in a Co. Truck. They made me drive 80 miles a day to work 1/2 mile from from my house.


That's sure hard to believe, especially since the vast majority of union electricians report direct to the job. 

The local has no say over whether your required to report direct or report to the shop, unless the work is out of the local and they are using portability and something is negotiated into the contract that would come into play in that situation.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

JayH said:


> That's sure hard to believe, especially since the vast majority of union electricians report direct to the job.
> 
> The local has no say over whether your required to report direct or report to the shop, unless the work is out of the local and they are using portability and something is negotiated into the contract that would come into play in that situation.


Haha, really. Maybe someone should have been picked up in the co. truck in the morning... or walked.
:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Sounds like the biggest load of BS I've heard today.


Another well thought out retort. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

JayH said:


> That's sure hard to believe, especially since the vast majority of union electricians report direct to the job.
> 
> The local has no say over whether your required to report direct or report to the shop, unless the work is out of the local and they are using portability and something is negotiated into the contract that would come into play in that situation.


He was driving a company truck. I am assuming the union had an issue with him driving a company truck unpaid to his home.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> He was driving a company truck. I am assuming the union had an issue with him driving a company truck unpaid to his home.



I never,ever,ever heard of this being a problem in any local in my life.
There has to be more to this story.I know more then a couple guy's who have trucks that go home with them,it's not a problem.Each shop has there own rules regarding company vehicles.Some shops let you take a vehicle home(generally the service guy's)and some companies want the vehicle returned to the shop each night.

I have no idea how having a company vehicle could turn into a problem,unless your using it for personal use or paying for the gas out of your pocket.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

In regards to having a company vehicle,when I worked open shop the guy's use to act like having the van was the single biggest accomplishment.WoW!! you get a company van _and_ a gas card!whoopdedoo!!!

Then the shop would give you this whole shpeel about how having a van is like a $10,000 a year raise and now there counting on you,blah,blah,blah.

I had a van for a short while.Overrated(IMO).I gave it back,I could care less about that headache.


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> In regards to having a company vehicle,when I worked open shop the guy's use to act like having the van was the single biggest accomplishment.WoW!! you get a company van _and_ a gas card!whoopdedoo!!!
> 
> Then the shop would give you this whole shpeel about how having a van is like a $10,000 a year raise and now there counting on you,blah,blah,blah.
> 
> I had a van for a short while.Overrated(IMO).I gave it back,I could care less about that headache.





We value a vehicle and fuel card to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $4.00/hr. Depending on Distance and time of travel. 


That doesn't take into account, insurance, maintenance, etc. 

Some of the guys appreciate the value of the vehicles, some don't. It's a never ending conflict. 

Our position is that a vehicle is offered as a reliable means of transportation to and from work.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> There has to be more to this story.


I am sure there is and before I start saying it is BS I will wait to hear it from the poster.



slickvic277 said:


> In regards to having a company vehicle,when I worked open shop the guy's use to act like having the van was the single biggest accomplishment.WoW!! you get a company van _and_ a gas card!whoopdedoo!!!
> 
> Then the shop would give you this whole shpeel about how having a van is like a $10,000 a year raise and now there counting on you,blah,blah,blah.
> 
> I had a van for a short while.Overrated(IMO).I gave it back,I could care less about that headache.


The fact I do not run a second personal vehicle saves me close to $10,000 per year.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I am sure there is and before I start saying it is BS I will wait to hear it from the poster.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact I do not run a second personal vehicle saves me close to $10,000 per year.


Don't get me wrong I know a van is a nice perk(with the right outfit)*BUT* I didn't like the fact the company was acting like they were doing me a favor.

Here's were I stand,if your a contractor and have service trucks/vans on the road they should be making you money.There's no other reason to have an electrician in a company truck other then to make money.That being said don't treat it like a big todo and some giant raise.You put me in the truck because you feel that you can make money that way.

Which I'm not against,just don't blow smoke up my ass about it.It is what it is.You want a guy to be in your vehicle of course you have to pay for gas and insurance who would want the responsibility with out at least that.

Oh,by the way I feel this way about both union and non union shops.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> I am assuming the union had an issue with him driving a company truck unpaid to his home.


You're not paid for road time to and from work. Gawd, that would be a job in fantasy-land.

Only a sucker could swallow that guy's story.

You have to be real gullible to believe the IBEW is about anything other than common sense.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You're not paid for road time to and from work. Gawd, that would be a job in fantasy-land.
> 
> Only a sucker could swallow that guy's story.
> 
> You have to be real gullible to believe the IBEW is about anything other than common sense.


Only a fool decides what to think with only part of the story.


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Organizing was the single best move I ever made.



I agree!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Don't get me wrong I know a van is a nice perk(with the right outfit)*BUT* I didn't like the fact the company was acting like they were doing me a favor.
> 
> Here's were I stand,if your a contractor and have service trucks/vans on the road they should be making you money.There's no other reason to have an electrician in a company truck other then to make money.That being said don't treat it like a big todo and some giant raise.You put me in the truck because you feel that you can make money that way.
> 
> ...


I am now the guy that offers the vans, I don't make it a 'big todo' I do bring up the good points about having one I also bring up the bad. The guys with vans rotate weeks being on call and we do get 1 AM calls to go on. They are compensated for being on call regardless of getting a call or not. Some guys like it some do not, they get a choice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

On week ends or any overtime my men get paid travel to and from home, I have had to modify this to one hour each way as some of the men live 60-80 miles west of DC. To a guy living 80 miles one way from a job a Van/truck is a major perk. The construction men that live there typically put 40,000-60,000 miles a year on their vehicles gas alone can run $5,000.00 and up depeing on all the variables.

Our mechanics pick a convenient location to pick up the apprentices or the apprentices can drive directly to the job.


A firm I do work for was brought up on charges by a guy they put in a truck, he lived about 40-50 miles away from the job. He was given a truck as the job was finishing up to carry tools and material. He said he should be paid when he gets in the truck and get out in the evening (basically 3 extra hours a day). The contractor, then the local tried to use logic with this fool, but common sense evaded him. The charges went no where and the man was back to driving his car. He told everyone how he beat the man at their game of screwing the worker.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I am now the guy that offers the vans, I don't make it a 'big todo' I do bring up the good points about having one I also bring up the bad. The guys with vans rotate weeks being on call and we do get 1 AM calls to go on. They are compensated for being on call regardless of getting a call or not. Some guys like it some do not, they get a choice.





brian john said:


> On week ends or any overtime my men get paid travel to and from home, I have had to modify this to one hour each way as some of the men live 60-80 miles west of DC. To a guy living 80 miles one way from a job a Van/truck is a major perk. The construction men that live there typically put 40,000-60,000 miles a year on their vehicles gas alone can run $5,000.00 and up depeing on all the variables.
> 
> Our mechanics pick a convenient location to pick up the apprentices or the apprentices can drive directly to the job.
> 
> ...




I'm not out and out against the company vehicle.I think were misunderstanding each other :laughing:.
I just think the vehicle benefits the company just as much as the employee.Maybe even more so,be it they put the right guy in the van.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You're not paid for road time to and from work. Gawd, that would be a job in fantasy-land.
> 
> Only a sucker could swallow that guy's story.
> 
> You have to be real gullible to believe the IBEW is about anything other than common sense.


In all locals in our area, if you pick up a company truck from the shop, you are paid from the time you are scheduled to arrive at the shop (provided you arrive on time) to the time you return (provided you made no personal detours on the way back.)

If you're assigned a company truck, you are paid from the time you arrive at the site to the time you leave the site.

Do you guys remember back in the mid 80's when the IRS instituted a tax on company vehicles? The open shop I worked for back then decided to pass that tax on to me, since I had a company vehicle. I promptly turned my vehicle in. They quickly saw the benefit of absorbing Uncle Sam's money grab.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JayH said:


> In all locals in our area, if you pick up a company truck from the shop, you are paid from the time you are scheduled to arrive at the shop (provided you arrive on time) to the time you return (provided you made no personal detours on the way back.)
> 
> If you're assigned a company truck, you are paid from the time you arrive at the site to the time you leave the site.


And I think that is pretty standard



> Do you guys remember back in the mid 80's when the IRS instituted a tax on company vehicles? The open shop I worked for back then decided to pass that tax on to me, since I had a company vehicle. I promptly turned my vehicle in. They quickly saw the benefit of absorbing Uncle Sam's money grab.


The IRS will try to wrangle every penny out of us they can and more. Under the rule this is a benefit to you if the company pays the added tax this is a benefit toy you and you must pay tax on this tax. Unfortunately it is not the companies obligation. There are ways around this though. But if the feds figure this out they will try again to enforce this strictly.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm not out and out against the company vehicle.I think were misunderstanding each other :laughing:.
> I just think the vehicle benefits the company just as much as the employee.Maybe even more so,be it they put the right guy in the van.


I see your point but I don't agree 100%. The vehicle does make the company money when an employee uses it during work hours. I don't see how it makes the company money transporting the employee to and from work. That part is purely a benefit to the employee, especially if a company gas card is also supplied. Taking home a company vehicle is a generous gesture. If you don't have to provide your own transportation to and from work it is a significant savings. If it was not appreciated, I would extend the offer to someone else that would appreciate it.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

A company vehicle should easily save an employee over $2,000.00 a year in gas alone. That does not include maintenence costs.

When I had a company truck I always let my insurance company know and our second vehicle was reclassified as a utility vehicle thereby lowering my insurance costs as well. (Hope Uncle Sam isn't reading.)


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

amptech said:


> I see your point but I don't agree 100%. The vehicle does make the company money when an employee uses it during work hours. I don't see how it makes the company money transporting the employee to and from work. That part is purely a benefit to the employee, especially if a company gas card is also supplied. Taking home a company vehicle is a generous gesture. If you don't have to provide your own transportation to and from work it is a significant savings. If it was not appreciated, I would extend the offer to someone else that would appreciate it.



The company vehicle should only exist to be a money maker(disregarding material trucks).If it's only being used to transport a guy or two to construction sites it's really not being used to it's potential.A service vehicle should make enough money to pay for ALL the expenses involved in owning it.And yes it is a saving to not have to use your own vehicle to get to and from work but lets not get confused,the vehicle is only offered to guy's that the company feels they can make money from them being in the truck.Let's not act like were giving people birthday presents here.

Gas and insurance,off hours,transporting people between jobs,maintaining and repairs it's all part of the cost of having a service vehicle.If your not doing enough business to cover ALL the overhead that comes with the vehicle then things need to change.

I guess my point is,a van is nice but not without headaches.It's not as great as some people make it out to be.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Don't get me wrong a company truck is nice.But I don't think of it as a gift.It's an added responsibility.The perks make the responsibility fare.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Don't get me wrong a company truck is nice.But I don't think of it as a gift.It's an added responsibility.The perks make the responsibility fare.


As in most things it benefits both parties, as far as foremen (none service) go I think it benefits them quite a bit.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> As in most things it benefits both parties, as far as foremen (none service) go I think it benefits them quite a bit.


Sure it does.But I always thought it a waste to give construction foreman a vehicle(from a business stand point)unless of course the van is a shop on wheels and the foreman is picking up all the tools and material every night and morning.

Then it's kind of a necessity.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Sure it does.But I always thought it a waste to give construction foreman a vehicle(from a business stand point)unless of course the van is a shop on wheels and the foreman is picking up all the tools and material every night and morning.
> 
> Then it's kind of a necessity.


It is often given as a non taxed benefit, but the IRS has wanted to change that for some time


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> It is often given as a non taxed benefit, but the IRS has wanted to change that for some time


These retards want to tax EVERYTHING!


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> These retards tax EVERYTHING!


There, fixed it for ya! :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> These retards want to tax EVERYTHING!


Here in NY they really are trying to do that.

They are going for a "sugar tax" on soft drinks


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Here in NY they really are trying to do that.
> 
> They are going for a "sugar tax" on soft drinks



Yeah they got that from Philly.Were getting the soda tax.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

amptech said:


> I see your point but I don't agree 100%. The vehicle does make the company money when an employee uses it during work hours. I don't see how it makes the company money transporting the employee to and from work. That part is purely a benefit to the employee, especially if a company gas card is also supplied. Taking home a company vehicle is a generous gesture. If you don't have to provide your own transportation to and from work it is a significant savings. If it was not appreciated, I would extend the offer to someone else that would appreciate it.


Actually it benefits 3 parties....the employee, employer, and customer.

Employee - saves wear and tear on personal vehicles, can shorten the working hour day as he can drive straight to and from job, instead of shop to shop then home.

Employer - helps to potentially ensure about 8 productive hours on site daily as opposed to losing hours due to drive time, which can help to win the job in 1st place.

Customer - can get their project finished earlier due to more productive time on site, can save them a few $$$ since excess drive time is not necessarliy having to be included in job price


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

amptech said:


> I don't see how it makes the company money transporting the employee to and from work. That part is purely a benefit to the employee


 It serves the company in two ways. First it helps when a late night service/emergency call is needed, having vehicles all over the area in worker's driveways could help save significant time. It's even a motivator to get guys to go when they would normally say no. When I got a call at 5:30 in the afternoon that some lights went out in part of the mall I would feel obligated to go check it out, and the company would save 1.5hrs (OT) of driving time for me to go to the shop to pick the van up and bring it back vs. me having it in my driveway ready to go. Second, it saves the company from having to pay the employee from when they arrive at the shop until when they come back after work everyday.


> Taking home a company vehicle is a generous gesture.


 I don't know if "a generous gesture" is a fair description. Is paying an employee his salary a generous gesture? Is giving him medical coverage a generous gesture? A company vehicle is a perk, it's part of the compensation package. In my world contractors give company vehicles, even small pickups that never see work material in them, to the producers that they want to keep.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

BadContact said:


> It serves the company in two ways. First it helps when a late night service/emergency call is needed, having vehicles all over the area in worker's driveways could help save significant time. It's even a motivator to get guys to go when they would normally say no. When I got a call at 5:30 in the afternoon that some lights went out in part of the mall I would feel obligated to go check it out, and the company would save 1.5hrs (OT) of driving time for me to go to the shop to pick the van up and bring it back vs. me having it in my driveway ready to go. Second, it saves the company from having to pay the employee from when they arrive at the shop until when they come back after work everyday.
> I don't know if "a generous gesture" is a fair description. Is paying an employee his salary a generous gesture? Is giving him medical coverage a generous gesture? A company vehicle is a perk, it's part of the compensation package. In my world contractors give company vehicles, even small pickups that never see work material in them, to the producers that they want to keep.


I disagree. I think it is "generous" if it is above and beyond the employment agreement. I don't see how lumping salary and benefits in to the take-home vehicle discussion is relevant. I don't see how it is part of the compensation package unless every employee gets a take-home vehicle and it was included in the deal when the employee was hired. I didn't think we were talking about that situation, but I may be wrong. I see all "perks" as generous gestures which don't have to be offered or accepted.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

amptech said:


> I disagree. I think it is "generous" if it is above and beyond the employment agreement.


 Businesses don't do things to be "generous". They do them because it will lead to higher profits. I explained those points in my last post. 



> I don't see how lumping salary and benefits in to the take-home vehicle discussion is relevant.


 Please read what I said again.

Giving an employee a take home vehicle isn't some gift from God. It could very well be seen as part of the compensation package along with salary, benefits, pension, workman's comp, etc. 


> I don't see how it is part of the compensation package unless every employee gets a take-home vehicle and it was included in the deal when the employee was hired.


 Deals change, and deals are not offered to every employee.



> I didn't think we were talking about that situation, but I may be wrong. I see all "perks" as generous gestures which don't have to be offered or accepted.


 If you were to make your company owner a lot of money one year, especially more than normal, and he gave you a bigger bonus than usual- would you think of that as a generous gift? Or as compensation for something that you worked for and earned?

Maybe we are looking at this differently. Like I said in my last post, "In my world" contractors give out company vehicles for two reasons, A) because there are advantages to having your trucks spread around and ready to go on a moment's notice and B) as compensation in an attempt to keep the worker.

Over the years I have been given company trucks, company gas cards, extra hours on each pay check, I even had a pool dug for free. When the company sees that you are producing they are sometimes willing to give extra to keep you from going to a competitor. A company vehicle fits in as that "extra" very often.

Of course this all doesn't happen as much these days with work being so slow :no:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> *I am sure there is and before I start saying it is BS I will wait to hear it from the poster.
> *
> 
> 
> The fact I do not run a second personal vehicle saves me close to $10,000 per year.


Thanks and your right. I was able to drive a Co. Truck because I was so close. And the greenest guy to have one. I also would leave my house at 7 when everyone else was at the shop at 7. I would go from my house to the supply house then meet everyone else at the job. This cut out on everyone else down time by not being able to go to the supply house every morning. 4 guys 15 to 30 mins everyday which is about 5 to 10 man hours per week on a 6 month job. The other guys cried and got someone at the hall to listen. Im not sure if I broke a bylaw or was just strong armed, but I was told I could no longer do it because of my "brothers". Had this been an open shop it would have never been an issue.

Some of the other apprentices also didnt like that I was able to go home and take a shower b4 class..man that tore them up...Not saying that all the locals are like this, just the one I joined. Im sure they are not all full of cry babies.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Voltech, if your story is true, then I blame you for laying down.

When my BAs pull bull**** I call them on it. Bylaws are there for a reason. I've always been willing to sit in front of the E-board and read the bylaws to them while they try to come up with excuses that I will not except.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Voltech, if your story is true, then I blame you for laying down.
> 
> When my BAs pull bull**** I call them on it. Bylaws are there for a reason. I've always been willing to sit in front of the E-board and read the bylaws to them while they try to come up with excuses that I will not except.



At the time it was easier to in your words "lay down" than have a bunch of angry people to work with. Never seen grown men mad about not getting paid to do nothing.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Voltech said:


> At the time it was easier to in your words "lay down" than have a bunch of angry people to work with. Never seen grown men mad about not getting paid to do nothing.


Remember, the union is only as good as the men willing to stand up and represent it.

If you let the assclowns have their way, don't complain when we loose more and more marketshare.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

BadContact said:


> Remember, the union is only as good as the men willing to stand up and represent it.
> 
> If you let the assclowns have their way, don't complain when we loose more and more marketshare.


You will never hear me complain about the union, it got me where I am today.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Voltech said:


> You will never hear me complain about the union.


Humpff, sounded alot like complaining to me.

That the Mississippi shops are not completely ruled by shoppees, is a surprise to me.

Here they give a man a van after he cries that he cannot keep going too and from the supply house in his own rig, that it just ain't right. I saw a man cry uncle when asked to move a company pipe rack in his own rig.

Here you might get a phone after complaining about all the personal cel minutes (hours) used up on company business.

But... I guess when the hourly rate is compared to the Mississippi rate, down there you better fight for every minute you can grab.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Humpff, sounded alot like complaining to me.
> 
> That the Mississippi shops are not completely ruled by shoppees, is a surprise to me.
> 
> ...


This happen in Nashville TN almost 15 years ago. I was just posting a situation I encountered while working for a union shop. I was asked for a better detail of what happen.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

To be fair here that is in the agreement, personal vehicles can not be used to transport company tools or material, but may be used to drive from one job to another provided I pay time and mileage.

That is why I have spare shop trucks and two material handlers with good driving records. I can either issue a truck out for a day, put one on a job-site for material runs or just handle all deliveries in house.

I happen to like this rule, a lot. My trucks, my insurance, my GPS, my rules helps minimize my risk. Also I don't want to get into the repair side for personal vehicles. The way it is now, if a personal vehicle get damages on a job site, its not my problem but if it were being used for my business, it becomes my problem.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

BadContact said:


> Businesses don't do things to be "generous". They do them because it will lead to higher profits. I explained those points in my last post.
> 
> Please read what I said again.
> 
> ...


To answer your question about "bonuses", unless the bonus is tied to a production figure in a written agreement, yes, it would be an act of generosity.
This is where our thinking goes in different directions. If I hire you I tell you up front what your compensation package is and I tell you what is expected in return for that package. I shouldn't expect any more or any less. You shouldn't expect any more or any less. Anything beyond that on either end is generosity. Anything less on either part would be firing grounds for the employee or grievance grounds against the employer. A smart employer will go the extra distance to keep a good employee happy for obvious reasons. A smart employee will work responsibly for obvious reasons as well. I just don't see it as always being lopsided with everything being done just for the benefit of the owner and the employee is somehow getting taken advantage of. I know there are some employers that don't do anything unless it is purely for their benefit but if that's the way they operate they don't last long.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Bonuses have never worked for my business; they always have the opposite effect of what I wanted.

When I gave them out, I got very little appreciation but I did get complaints that some people got more, or they were not big enough…ect ect ect. Last time labor negotiations came up the BA requested an accounting off all the bonuses I gave out, and then used that against me saying that if I could afford bonuses, then I could afford bigger pay raises and dental insurance.

I will NEVER give bonuses again, bonuses and IBEW do not mix.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Bonuses have never worked for my business; they always have the opposite effect of what I wanted.
> 
> When I gave them out, I got very little appreciation but I did get complaints that some people got more, or they were not big enough…ect ect ect. Last time labor negotiations came up the BA requested an accounting off all the bonuses I gave out, and then used that against me saying that if I could afford bonuses, then I could afford bigger pay raises and dental insurance.
> 
> I will NEVER give bonuses again, bonuses and IBEW do not mix.


I know what you're talking about. I worked for a company that had "profit sharing". When we were really booming in the late 80s folks were getting $2500 twice a year. When things went dead it was $500 twice a year. People screamed bloody murder. When everyone else in this area was laying off this company didn't. Nobody appreciated that, they just griped about the profit sharing being down. That company has been here since 1902 and to this day has never layed off a full-time employee and there are 600+ of them now. You should hear the employees hate on this company. It's unbelievable.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

amptech said:


> I know what you're talking about. I worked for a company that had "profit sharing". When we were really booming in the late 80s folks were getting $2500 twice a year. When things went dead it was $500 twice a year. People screamed bloody murder. When everyone else in this area was laying off this company didn't. Nobody appreciated that, they just griped about the profit sharing being down. That company has been here since 1902 and to this day has never layed off a full-time employee and there are 600+ of them now. You should hear the employees hate on this company. It's unbelievable.


Sounds like an awesome place to work for. Profit sharing is the schiznit.
Yeah those evil owners are keeping all the cash! Damn they are so greedy! 90 percent of the people in this world have no idea of economics.


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