# Breaker compatibility



## stephenpilara (Feb 11, 2020)

Forgive me guys, I'm a new home inspector (about a year in) and I'm trying to learn as much as I can to better serve my clients... Can someone direct me to a site where I can check breaker compatibility? I haven't found anything that seems legit. Specifically, I'm looking at a Bryant panel with some G/E breakers. Any direction would be appreciated...


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

GE breakers cant be used legally in a Bryant panel
Eaton-Cutler Hammer type "BR" breakers are the UL listed interchangeable breakers for old Bryant panels. 
You will have to dig around the Eaton site to find the literature
For what's it worth Home Depot sells them. 

Basically Bryant was a subsidiary of Westinghouse way back when then Eaton bought Westinghouse Distribution and Controls Business Unit in 1994


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

stephenpilara said:


> Forgive me guys, I'm a new home inspector (about a year in) and I'm trying to learn as much as I can to better serve my clients... Can someone direct me to a site where I can check breaker compatibility? I haven't found anything that seems legit. Specifically, I'm looking at a Bryant panel with some G/E breakers. Any direction would be appreciated...


This is something that you will learn as you go.

As a home inspector, you are best off just saying something along the lines of "_Some breakers are of a different brand/model than originally specified for the electrical panel. We recommend consulting a qualified electrician to determine compatibility_."


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Compatible and listed are two different things. 

If you can put it in and it works, then it’s compatible. 


Listing requires the manufacture to pay UL etc. to test that model breaker in that panel panel.

But do what Hack said. It covers your ars and there is just no way that you are going to find the kinds of issues that a trained electrician with 4-5 years apprentiship and 10-40 years of experience is going to find.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

stephenpilara said:


> Forgive me guys, I'm a new home inspector (about a year in) and I'm trying to learn as much as I can to better serve my clients... Can someone direct me to a site where I can check breaker compatibility? I haven't found anything that seems legit. Specifically, I'm looking at a Bryant panel with some G/E breakers. Any direction would be appreciated...


Very few breakers are compatible between brand's. The only breakers allowed in a Bryant panel are either old Bryant, or Eaton type BR. Eaton type CL are too, but you arent likely to find those.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

There is some more info on this at a site called "Inspection News" 
You could also contact the manufacture and ask them. Make up a chart of the panels that use plug in breakers and keep it with you. 
Hopefully you wont come across any Zinsco Breakers. Red tag those ..
As home inspectors you guys don't usually pull covers off panels to check inside, do you?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

You have to first understand that there are two separate systems involved; the PANEL, and the BREAKERS. There is NO PANEL that is UL listed using anything other than the ORIGINAL breakers shown in their listing, generally being breakers of the same mfr (although not universally true). So GE PANELS are only listed with GE breakers, Siemens PANELS are only listed with Siemens breakers, etc. etc. Where this counts is in the INITIAL installation and inspection of a panel; the entire setup must be installed as LISTED, and that means, because of how the PANEL is listed, all the breakers must match the panel.


BREAKERS are listed for use IN PANELS, but because a breaker mfr can buy any brand of panel and test their breakers inside of it, they can list their breakers as RETROFIT products for EXISTING panels. The official term for this within the UL listing process is referred to as "Classified" listing. In that process, the breakers MUST be tested and listed for use in SPECIFIC panels of competitive suppliers; you cannot willy-nilly install a Classified Breaker anywhere that it will "fit", at least not _legally_. So before this was all made official within UL some time in the 80s, there were what were referred to as "interchangeable" or "universal" breakers sold; for example Siemens/ITE/Murray breakers would interchange with Bryant/Crouse-Hinds, which became Eaton BR product lines, as well as GTE/Sylvania, which became Challenger, then they were absorbed by Eaton too. Some time after the Classified listing change, Square D released the "Homeline" product lines that fit the same profile as Siemens/Murray/Bryant/Crose-Hinds/Eaton BR. So now there are Siemens (they are dropping the Murray name), Eaton BR (ex-Bryant), and Square D Homeline products, as well as several aftermarket-only brands like Connecticut Electric, that all make plug-in breakers that are classified for MANY of the common panels made by their competitors, meaning you can retrofit a Siemens breaker into a Homeline panel, an Eaton BR into a Siemens panel, a Homeline breaker into an Eaton BR panel, and the _*BREAKERS *_are all listed as acceptable substitutes. The PANEL was already accepted on initial installation, which would have AT THAT TIME required the breakers to match what the PANEL was listed with, but on retrofits, that horse is already out of the barn.


At no time however did GE ever get their THQ plug-in breakers Classified for use in any other brand of panel. GE had a DIFFERENT slot depth that was intended to PREVENT that from happening. So if you tried to use a GE THQ breaker in a Siemens panel, the breaker would not snap down all the way and would not make proper contact with the bus stab. A lot of people discovered however that if you used a pair of needle nose pliers, you could break away part of the plastic housing to allow the breaker to seat all the way down, but this only allowed them to FUNCTION, it was _never_ _permissible_. Conversely however, some of the above mfrs HAVE had their BREAKERS Classified for use in GE panels, because a longer slot opening in the breaker stab did not interfere with use on a panel space that needed a smaller one.


Here is a chart from Eaton showing what THEIR Classified breakers can be used to replace, but it's a pretty safe bet that most of the others have reciprocated. You will see that Eaton has a solution to replace GE THQ breakers, but you will not find this chart for the THQs being able to be used anywhere else, _legally_.


https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Eaton/Breakers-ClassifedType.pdf


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

UL white book will specify breakers listed for use in which panel & which panel lists which breaker. I'm sure: Square D QO- QO only

Cutler hammer CH-Ch only. Most others are limited to their own breakers except Eaton, Siemens, Murray, and Cutler hammer BR interchange. Bryant, Challenger, GE I believe sometimes fit, but aren't listed for the application.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

Easy said:


> As home inspectors you guys don't usually pull covers off panels to check inside, do you?


Of course he is,.how else will he red.flag double tapped neutrals and grounds?

Also, please keep doing this, I make good money. Also the water heater wire needing "protection"

I love home inspectors


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## Paulusgnome (Mar 28, 2009)

What a bloody nightmare.
Down here in IEC-land, any IEC breaker will fit any panel with a din rail.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

mjbasford said:


> Of course he is,.how else will he red.flag double tapped neutrals and grounds?
> 
> Also, please keep doing this, I make good money. Also the water heater wire needing "protection"
> 
> I love home inspectors


I guess it's ok for a home inspector to pull covers off of panels as long as he has been properly trained in the use of PPE's and is required to use such protective equipment when he is exposed to energized parts. If the rules apply to qualified personnel they should certainly apply to non qualified personnel.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Easy said:


> I guess it's ok for a home inspector to pull covers off of panels as long as he has been properly trained in the use of PPE's and is required to use such protective equipment when he is exposed to energized parts. If the rules apply to qualified personnel they should certainly apply to non qualified personnel.


I think that before OP removes any dead fronts, he may want to do a quick refresher course on arc flash boundaries.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Willie B said:


> UL white book will specify breakers listed for use in which panel & which panel lists which breaker. I'm sure: Square D QO- QO only
> 
> Cutler hammer CH-Ch only. Most others are limited to their own breakers except Eaton, Siemens, Murray, and Cutler hammer BR interchange. Bryant, Challenger, GE I believe sometimes fit, but aren't listed for the application.



Siemens and Eaton both have Classified breakers that go into QO panels. Siemens has Classified breakers that go into Eaton C-H panels.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

Easy said:


> I guess it's ok for a home inspector to pull covers off of panels as long as he has been properly trained in the use of PPE's and is required to use such protective equipment when he is exposed to energized parts. If the rules apply to qualified personnel they should certainly apply to non qualified personnel.


Do you really suit up in full arc flash ppe to take a resi deadfront off?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

mjbasford said:


> Do you really suit up in full arc flash ppe to take a resi deadfront off?


No... I don't, but if you work for a company that requires you to I would. Most residential solar companies require it. Usually the JW that does the tie in at the panel will bring out his PPE's and set them on the ground next to the panel just in case the boss man shows up. 

I really doubt that OSHA drives around looking for people working on residential panels without PPE's. Inspectors don't care they pull covers as well without protective gear. 

IMO Removing or replacing a cover on a panel is just as dangerous as working on energized circuits probably more so. If I had my way only electricians would be allowed to inspect electrical panels.


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

Easy said:


> No... I don't, but if you work for a company that requires you to I would. Most residential solar companies require it. Usually the JW that does the tie in at the panel will bring out his PPE's and set them on the ground next to the panel just in case the boss man shows up.
> 
> I really doubt that OSHA drives around looking for people working on residential panels without PPE's. Inspectors don't care they pull covers as well without protective gear.
> 
> IMO Removing or replacing a cover on a panel is just as dangerous as working on energized circuits probably more so. If I had my way only electricians would be allowed to inspect electrical panels.


Not arguing, but I have never heard of a resi company (maybe a big union company that also does resi?) That gives two ****s about ppe besides a cursory mention in a manual as a cya.

You have much better solar guys in your area than here, I'd be surprised if those Yahoo's can spell electricity. None are jws or masters.

I agree, it should be limited to certified electricians and the homeowners. No other company or trade should be allowed, and technically I think that's already a rule, but ain't never gonna be enforced.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

JRaef said:


> You have to first understand that there are two separate systems involved; the PANEL, and the BREAKERS. There is NO PANEL that is UL listed using anything other than the ORIGINAL breakers shown in their listing, generally being breakers of the same mfr (although not universally true). So GE PANELS are only listed with GE breakers, Siemens PANELS are only listed with Siemens breakers, etc. etc. Where this counts is in the INITIAL installation and inspection of a panel; the entire setup must be installed as LISTED, and that means, because of how the PANEL is listed, all the breakers must match the panel.
> 
> 
> BREAKERS are listed for use IN PANELS, but because a breaker mfr can buy any brand of panel and test their breakers inside of it, they can list their breakers as RETROFIT products for EXISTING panels. The official term for this within the UL listing process is referred to as "Classified" listing. In that process, the breakers MUST be tested and listed for use in SPECIFIC panels of competitive suppliers; you cannot willy-nilly install a Classified Breaker anywhere that it will "fit", at least not _legally_. So before this was all made official within UL some time in the 80s, there were what were referred to as "interchangeable" or "universal" breakers sold; for example Siemens/ITE/Murray breakers would interchange with Bryant/Crouse-Hinds, which became Eaton BR product lines, as well as GTE/Sylvania, which became Challenger, then they were absorbed by Eaton too. Some time after the Classified listing change, Square D released the "Homeline" product lines that fit the same profile as Siemens/Murray/Bryant/Crose-Hinds/Eaton BR. So now there are Siemens (they are dropping the Murray name), Eaton BR (ex-Bryant), and Square D Homeline products, as well as several aftermarket-only brands like Connecticut Electric, that all make plug-in breakers that are classified for MANY of the common panels made by their competitors, meaning you can retrofit a Siemens breaker into a Homeline panel, an Eaton BR into a Siemens panel, a Homeline breaker into an Eaton BR panel, and the _*BREAKERS *_are all listed as acceptable substitutes. The PANEL was already accepted on initial installation, which would have AT THAT TIME required the breakers to match what the PANEL was listed with, but on retrofits, that horse is already out of the barn.
> ...


One of my pet peeves is "Homeline in other panels myth". If you put a home line in a GE type panel it will be crooked and put pressure on the contacts and it will eventually fail. The GE type breakers the mounting ears are centered, Homeline they are off centered by 1/16 inch. 








Two breakers back to back, note the mounting ear on the left breaker (Homeline) in taller on the bottom. The mounting rail on the panel is also off center by the same amount. GE types in a Homeline panel will not fit so well ether.
If you open a panel that GE type panel that has a Homeline it is very noticeable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> One of my pet peeves is "Homeline in other panels myth". If you put a home line in a GE type panel it will be crooked and put pressure on the contacts and it will eventually fail.


 With all due respect, I don’t think this is true. It sounds like just an assumption of what might happen. To say that it outright will fail is a leap, IMO. 

The jaws inside of the breaker are spring loaded and will deflect more than enough to continue to make good contact when the far side of the breaker is off by the 16th of an inch that you mentioned.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> With all due respect, I don’t think this is true. It sounds like just an assumption of what might happen. To say that it outright will fail is a leap, IMO.
> 
> The jaws inside of the breaker are spring loaded and will deflect more than enough to continue to make good contact when the far side of the breaker is off by the 16th of an inch that you mentioned.


It's up to you, low amps probable will not fail, put some high current threw it and check with and inferred camera and look the heat signature. 
Go out into your shop, put one in and just look at it, stands out line a sore thumb.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> It's up to you, low amps probable will not fail, put some high current threw it and check with and inferred camera and look the heat signature.
> Go out into your shop, put one in and just look at it, stands out line a sore thumb.


If you could post images of a Homeline breaker heating up significantly more than another brand breaker carrying the same amount of current, then you would be absolutely correct. 

I have a feeling we’re not going to see that.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Found it years ago, didn't take a shot. Just cram one in and tell me it fits correctly. I don't mess with panels any more.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Found it years ago, didn't take a shot


 If you only saw it happen once, then the overheating could’ve been from anything. If the correct breaker was in that position it might have overheated as well.



> Just cram one in and tell me it fits correctly. I don't mess with panels any more.


I’ve installed them and know exactly what you mean.

I just don’t think that slight cant is putting enough strain on the spring loaded jaws to make any difference.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

For the most part, I don't get excited over the wrong breaker type in the wrong panel.
GE has always been behind in AFCI "technology" Every time a different type of arc fault breaker has come out, they had Siemens breakers sticker listed for their panels - Siemens breakers with THQ and GE stickers on them. 

Eaton CL breakers are exactly the same as BR other than the silk screening on the face and the leaflet included in the box. They are listed for use in the other 3 panels and most of the obsolete brand 1" breaker panels. Ironically, about the only panel a CL breaker is not listed for use is in an Eaton BR panel. Remember, same casing:surprise:

Reliance modifies Siemens panels as manual generator transfer panels. They are UL listed for use with all 4 brand breakers. Their newer Pro/Tran switches are also listed for use with all 4.

Generac Homelink transfer switches are listed for use with Q, HOM and BR

Every Milbank meter bank I've seen is listed for use with all 4

I'm sure I missed plenty of examples, but for the most part I have adopted the same slogan as USPS flat rate boxes. If It fits, it ships. I've been doing this long enough to know what is going to fit just fine, and what might be a problem in the future


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> If you only saw it happen once, then the overheating could’ve been from anything. If the correct breaker was in that position it might have overheated as well.
> 
> 
> I’ve installed them and know exactly what you mean.
> ...


I'm just passing on the information. If you feel confident in your choices go for it, do what you believe is right.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

mjbasford said:


> Not arguing, but I have never heard of a resi company (maybe a big union company that also does resi?) That gives two ****s about ppe besides a cursory mention in a manual as a cya.
> 
> You have much better solar guys in your area than here, I'd be surprised if those Yahoo's can spell electricity. None are jws or masters.
> 
> I agree, it should be limited to certified electricians and the homeowners. No other company or trade should be allowed, and technically I think that's already a rule, but ain't never gonna be enforced.


I totally agree. No right minded person would go commando and suit up if they were working on a residential panel. Some rules are there to be broken.


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

I'll put on my gloves and at least safety rated sunglasses if I have to pull a meter, I've seen the line side jaws come off once and plasma ball itself


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I just don’t think that slight cant is putting enough strain on the spring loaded jaws to make any difference.


Here's a question for you (or anyone who has seen a fair number of fair breakers over the years): 

Would you say that of the failed breakers you've found over the years, mismatched have failed any more often than correctly matched, correctly installed?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Here's a question for you (or anyone who has seen a fair number of fair breakers over the years):
> 
> Would you say that of the failed breakers you've found over the years, mismatched have failed any more often than correctly matched, correctly installed?


I wrote down your answer on paper and mailed it to you.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I wrote down your answer on paper and mailed it to you.


Please use a fountain pen and linen paper in the future.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

splatz said:


> Here's a question for you (or anyone who has seen a fair number of fair breakers over the years):
> 
> Would you say that of the failed breakers you've found over the years, mismatched have failed any more often than correctly matched, correctly installed?


I've seen mismatched breakers plenty of times, only once did a GE breaker go tits-up in a Siemens panel. Most burn outs are matched sets.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have seen many burnt up breaker-busbar connections. And since most of the panels around here are older, a lot of those instances were with breakers not rated for those panels.

But there is no reason to believe that the cause was because the breaker was somehow not compatible with the panel.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I have seen many burnt up breaker-busbar connections. And since most of the panels around here are older, a lot of those instances were with breakers not rated for those panels.
> 
> But there is no reason to believe that the cause was because the breaker was somehow not compatible with the panel.


That's what I am getting at. You can't really say why it fried in any one case. But mismatches are not unusual, so lots of people will see enough to have an idea whether mismatched breakers burn up bus bars significantly more often than properly matched breakers. 

For example if half the burnt busbars you find are under mismatched breakers, that's a clear sign that the mismatches are far more prone to this problem, because not nearly 50% of breakers out there are mismatches.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> For example if half the burnt busbars you find are under mismatched breakers, that's a clear sign that the mismatches are far more prone to this problem, because not nearly 50% of breakers out there are mismatches.


I don’t believe you can accurately draw that conclusion from that circumstance. Remember, correlation does not equal causation.

Seeing more burnt up connections with mismatched breakers can simply be due to a factor of age. The connection that’s been stressed for many decades is more prone to failing. And a panel that has been there for many decades is more prone to having mismatched breakers. So the correct breaker in that exact position might have failed at the exact same time. 

I don’t know if we’ll ever know for sure, but in the end I don’t think anyone (other than the gayest Mike Holtish by-the-book-tard) realistically believes that mismatching breakers is a problem other than the concern over the slight cant with Homeline- which is a reasonable concern, just not something that I think is an issue.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Easy said:


> No... I don't, but if you work for a company that requires you to I would. *Most residential solar* companies require it. Usually the JW that does the tie in at the panel will bring out his PPE's and set them on the ground next to the panel just in case the boss man shows up.
> 
> I really doubt that OSHA drives around looking for people working on residential panels without PPE's. Inspectors don't care they pull covers as well without protective gear.
> 
> IMO Removing or replacing a cover on a panel is just as dangerous as working on energized circuits probably more so. If I had my way only electricians would be allowed to inspect electrical panels.


Residential solar DC segment runs nominally at 480V and with amperage from nominal 5A and up. A10KVA central inverter system would typically 25A. That’s a whole lot of ouch.

That said, I don’t suit up. i do remove my wedding ring and wear safety glasses and carefully watch my P’s and Q’s when working the DC component. It’s not my happy place.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

five.five-six said:


> Residential solar DC segment runs nominally at 480V and with amperage from nominal 5A and up. A10KVA central inverter system would typically 25A. That’s a whole lot of ouch.
> 
> That said, I don’t suit up. i do remove my wedding ring and wear safety glasses and carefully watch my P’s and Q’s when working the DC component. It’s not my happy place.


I may have gone a bit overboard with PPE’s. Removing jewelry, using eye protection, gloves and cotton shirt is probably good enough for anyone working on a residential service. I have spent less time working in the residential arena than commercial or industrial but I have actually seen more accidents in residential work. Just don’t get complacent is probably the best advice. 
Here is a link to an article about home inspector safety and a photo of what ark flash look like. 
https://www.nachi.org/arc-flash-dangers.htm


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

The thing about cotton is that it’s not flame resistant, but it doesn’t turn into napalm when it ignites like common textile synthetic fibers tend to.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

five.five-six said:


> The thing about cotton is that it’s not flame resistant, but it doesn’t turn into napalm when it ignites like common textile synthetic fibers tend to.


At least it won't melt into your skin like nylon would. I hope I didn't scare the inspector. My point is to be safe. Thanks for the info about DC solar voltages I will take extra caution if I ever need to work on that type of system. 
I remember the good old days when electricians did service change outs without the involvement of the utility company. Cutting service drops on overhead feeds and insulating underground feeders and carefully sliding panels into position. It was unsafe but was also common practice. 
Don't fear electricity, respect it. No one want to work with a guy who has shaky hands and is working in a live panel. :smile:


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