# Rust in Panels



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

"Have a qualified electrical contractor inspect and/or make repairs as needed"


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Any "rust" is too much, but good luck convincing a customer of that. Advise of the poor condition and recommend replacement and rectifying the situation causing corrosion. Then when they say it's fine, it's been like that forever.. wait until it catastrophically fails, and fix it with your emergency service fee added.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You're doing the right thing. You spot the problem and recommend having an electrician correct it. If you see rust, report it. The degree of rust doesn't matter.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I just did some work for these people who were using a clothes dryer in their house, but it wasn't being ventilated outside. You can imagine how corroded and destroyed their TWO panels (side by side) were. I told them to stop and get it vented.. I guarantee they didn't. I guarantee that house is going to have a catastrophic breaker failure in a few very short years. 

People get complacent... if it's worked fine all this time, why would it stop? If it never hurt anybody yet, why would it now? All we can do is advise and then say...


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ive seen a rusted out panel(from no seal on top of mb) travel 30' horizontal along house and into basement panel( bottom was rusted that u could put ur finger thru it!


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Boys bathroom in a school. In the back of the bathroom is a small custodial room. 3 panels inside. All smell like urine and rusted so bad. Pee crystals all over and and you want me add a circuit?

Awesome!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Wpgshocker said:


> Boys bathroom in a school. In the back of the bathroom is a small custodial room. 3 panels inside. All smell like urine and rusted so bad. Pee crystals all over and and you want me add a circuit?
> 
> Awesome!


Oh no you din't.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

dherfjhrgoijrgf


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

This is a electrician's site and based on what I have seen you post these last 2 days your not and electrician nor a ELECTRICAL inspector maybe you should tell your clients to have an qualified electrician inspect their electrical system. How are you qualified to tell a client what a problem is if you dont know what a problem is?? Just putting that out there. We have a number of who im sure are fine electricians on this site who live in your state, maybe make some kind of deal, but your cheating your clients. Or do you mail checks to people on here who give you advise?? 

Borgi didnt you make a big drama a few days ago about you leaving?? How are you thanking people?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO, if the rust is confined to the bottom as shown I would not worry about it. There are no conduits there and the bus seems fine so I would try and see why it is rusting and fix that isue.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The op is a home inspector and a member of the community. If you have nothing constructive to offer then please don't respond. It is a legitimate question and the man is looking to better himself. Why is this an issue for anyone. I have given talks to home inspectors so that they can do there jobs better. The more they know the better it is for all. IMO


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The op is a home inspector and a member of the community. If you have nothing constructive to offer then please don't respond. It is a legitimate question and the man is looking to better himself. Why is this an issue for anyone. I have given talks to home inspectors so that they can do there jobs better. The more they know the better it is for all. IMO


Fair enough.

Constructive advise: In addition to your question about rust, note other corrosion preventing good contact to the breaker, could single phase that circuit, other then that I have spotted multiple code violations in the panel, one may cause nuisance issues on circuits involved. 
I would advise they call an electrician.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The dp breaker is obvious- needs replacement but the busbar also needs to be checked. I have a feeling the problem is limited to the breaker terminals not the buss.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The dp breaker is obvious- needs replacement but the busbar also needs to be checked. I have a feeling the problem is limited to the breaker terminals not the buss.


To an electrician your correct, which brings me back to a few posts up... However since there is a zoomed in picture of that breaker im assuming it was part of the question.


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

Most of the Panels I inspect in homes are 'Clean' but the rest range from simple double taps, to serious damage.

In an ideal world people WOULD hire an electrician to go through the house. And a HVAC person, a plumber, a carpenter, a roofer, and an appliance person. To get a WRITTEN evaluation from each of them, in less than 5 days, would be, uhm, well, difficult, and expensive. 

Home Inspectors do our best to do TRIAGE and tell the buyer which experts they need, and what to point them at. 

The picture below was not caused by rust, but something I came across recently. 

I definitely called for an electrician. From what I could see it needed replacement...but I can't say that... I can only say what I saw (without removing the other breakers) and recommend you guys. 

PS... I have heard back on one similar to this that the sellers "electrician" *said* (wouldn't write it down) he saw nothing wrong... Would you guys have given this a pass?


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> Most of the Panels I inspect in homes are 'Clean' but the rest range from simple double taps, to serious damage.
> 
> In an ideal world people WOULD hire an electrician to go through the house. And a HVAC person, a plumber, a carpenter, a roofer, and an appliance person. To get a WRITTEN evaluation from each of them, in less than 5 days, would be, uhm, well, difficult, and expensive.
> 
> ...


Absolutely not. It should be replaced.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I love it when an Hi calls out a double tap breaker and in fact the breaker is listed for it. HI's make me quite a bit of money just to go out and tell HO it is compliant.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ive seen some rusted out panels that i couldnt manually open the main brkr... Not sayin it wouldnt trip but...


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## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

oh, oh Double taps....

There -ARE- panels that are listed for two wires...Square-D. Thats why even -I- tell other inspectors to go back to school.

There may be others with Proper saddles like the Square-D, but I haven't SEEN one yet.

However, you can't put both wires on the same side on a Square-D either. Seen that LOTS. 

My favorite double tap is the Surge suppressor stranded 14ga under the bolt for the Main 4/0. There are panels that have a place for taps on the main specifically for Surge devices, but you don't put the stranded under the lug for the 4/0. And the device has to be rated for it as well (few are).

Most common double tap...the Doorbell Transformer. Stranded 14ga stuffed in with the closest 15A circuit. Not a big hazard, but still wrong.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Sisson said:


> PS... I have heard back on one similar to this that the sellers "electrician" *said* (wouldn't write it down) he saw nothing wrong... Would you guys have given this a pass?


This is caused by a bad connection between the buss and the breaker. Alot of heat built up over the years and destroyed the buss as well as the breaker. Sometimes this issue is only at that spot and I have just replaced the breaker by installing it in another spot. I see nothing wrong with doing that if the rest of the buss is fine and there is space to do it. It is not always necessary to change the entire panel.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is caused by a bad connection between the buss and the breaker. Alot of heat built up over the years and destroyed the buss as well as the breaker. Sometimes this issue is only at that spot and I have just replaced the breaker by installing it in another spot. I see nothing wrong with doing that if the rest of the buss is fine and there is space to do it. It is not always necessary to change the entire panel.


dont u think the heat could change the strength or properties of the buss? Hence making it a weak spot?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

considering the thickness of the busbar and the likelyhood of only the contact area being damaged i wouldnt worry about it much, but close inspection would be appropiate


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## StevieScott (Jul 26, 2014)

The pic is not enough to elaborate the current status. Your issue is only solved by seeing the panels. You should talk to your nearest professional contractor and take him advice.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The simple physics of heat attracting moisture becomes almost impossible to avoid in older structures with environmentally _incorrect _ OCPD enclosures.

The best fix is nema rated enclosures, i've sold a few in situations posted here 

Short of this, de-energizing and physically removing all OCPD's for re-termination and visual inspection would be prudent.

That said, there's a world of OCPD related maladies that can occur beyond rust ,much of which could be noted w/o any more toolage than it takes to remove a panel cover

Below is a list we have used to do so, it's proven to be one of our most successful loss leaders , and best of all, i ripped it off from an HI site!!!
(thank you Bob & co!) :thumbup:

*Panel accessibility
Adequate workspace
Adequate illumination
Main disco heigth
Panel labeling
Front cover integrity
cover screws
panel ampacity/capacity/model make
main OCPD identification
individual OCPD identification
service size correct for service entrance conductor
all unused openings closed
correct filler blanks of plates
panel cvr removal
foreign objects
rust, corrosion, moisture damage
entrance conductors & lugs
signs of heat damage
proper clamps, connectors and/or bushings
disconnected and/or loose wiring
neat & workmanlike
main bonding jumper
grounding electrode conductor
nuetral/ground subpanel isolation
double tapped breakers
afci/gfci testing
brkrs match panel make/model
max # of brkrs for make/model
overfused conductors
multiple under single conductor
wire sheathing damage/integrity
proper brkr handle ties
brkr ampacity clearly identified*

~CS~


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Find out how the water is getting in and stop it, or try. Check the drip loop outside,that can be often cause.


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