# Nec Requirement



## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

The facility that I work for in West Virginia will not supply the technicians working for them Nec update classes. Can anyone tell me if this is a requirement? There policy states qualified individuals are Nec knowledgable. Thanks for the help.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Whether or not update classes are "required" may be a licensing issue with the state of WV... not really sure.

One thing I would let your facility know is that the NEC is a constantly changing standard and continuing education classes will help to assure that you are the "qualified individual" that they expect you to be.

Pete


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

according to the WV state website, it doesn't look like plant employees need to be licensed in any way, much less have continuing education, unless I am misreading it.

http://www.firemarshal.wv.gov/Documents/CHAPTER%2029%20ARTICLE%203B.pdf


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I work in a factory in GA and our state does not require people in house to be licensed . We do get a lot of training but I have not seen any on nec though .


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## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

I have explained this to them. My boss has convinced the plant manager that having a code book on site make everyone knowledgable. I have told them that the code book only comes out every three years. If there is any way to convince them please let me know.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

There is nothing in the NEC requiring training or electricians.

Those are the types of issues handled on a local basis.

Even in areas that require continuing education it is usually a requirement of the license holder not the employer. 

Where I am continuing education is required and luckily my employer picks up the cost but they are not required to.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> There is nothing in the NEC requiring training or electricians.
> 
> Those are the types of issues handled on a local basis.
> 
> ...


Ditto. My former company picked up the tab and after the switch, my current employer does also. There's plenty of guys who have to take it on the chin though.


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## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

This maybe a OSHA or a NFPA issue. They have not supplied ace flash training yet either. We have employees doing electrical work with NEC code violations on a daily basis.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Passthru said:


> This maybe a OSHA or a NFPA issue. They have not supplied ace flash training yet either. We have employees doing electrical work with NEC code violations on a daily basis.


the only thing i can suggest that you do is to do some research on your own, and make a small compilation of recent OSHA fines and accidents (outlining the costs of the fines, as well as the consequential costs of the accidents), and show to your employer that training in both the code, and in arc flash, as well as general safety (LOTO, plant specific hazards, general work related safety) will result in an eventual COST BENEFIT to their bottom line (spend a little money on safety, save a little money on the consequences of unsafe activities).


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

So you buy a book on the current code changes and read it...

it can only make your job more secure and keep you from making mistakes that will cost the company money and make you look bad...


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## DesignerMan (Jun 13, 2008)

Passthru said:


> The facility that I work for in West Virginia will not supply the technicians working for them Nec update classes. Can anyone tell me if this is a requirement? There policy states qualified individuals are Nec knowledgable. Thanks for the help.


I'm licensed in WV and they do not require any CEU for electrical contractors. Don't think it would apply to an electrician in a plant anyway, since it doesn't seem to anywhere else. That's up to the discretion of the owner unfortunately.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

*Training*



Passthru said:


> This maybe a OSHA or a NFPA issue. They have not supplied ace flash training yet either. We have employees doing electrical work with NEC code violations on a daily basis.


NEC update class in order to maintain your license... I'm afraid that's one you, (although many employers do provide it). OSHA defines "qualified" with regards to electrical work in 1910.339 (it has nothing to do with licensing).

There is however required training for both qualified and unqualified electrical workers specified in 1910.332 and qualified folks whose work on energized equipment involves either direct or indirect contact must also have the training to meet 1910.333(C)(2). 

There is also an OSHA letter of interpretation concerning employee training requirements to perform work on electrical equipment (including servicing and maintenance).

If your employer claims a person is qualified to do electrical work, they need to produce documentation to support it.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Michigan Master said:


> NEC update class in order to maintain your license... I'm afraid that's one you, (although many employers do provide it). OSHA defines "qualified" with regards to electrical work in 1910.339 (it has nothing to do with licensing).
> 
> There is however required training for both qualified and unqualified electrical workers specified in 1910.332 and qualified folks whose work on energized equipment involves either direct or indirect contact must also have the training to meet 1910.333(C)(2).
> 
> ...


after re-reading 1910.332, it appears that you only are required to be trained if you are going to work on energized equipment (risk of shock). Am I reading that right ?

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9909


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Passthru, can you give us some of the NEC code violations that are done daily at the facility. I have worked at some small and very large facilities with many different processes. It seems that management are the ones who believe that by hiring what they believe are qualified personnel keep them safe from liability. Should some thing go wrong the qualified personnel are at fault and responsible. However, as others have stated OHSA views that very differently. As a Master are you the electrical supervisor at the facility? Are there written safety procedures, lock out tag out? Show the plant manager the finds from the responses here regarding arc flash etc.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> So you buy a book on the current code changes and read it...
> 
> it can only make your job more secure and keep you from making mistakes that will cost the company money and make you look bad...


If it were really that simple.......why are so many seasoned electricians asking questions on this (and similar) forums on a daily basis?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Passthru said:


> This maybe a OSHA or a NFPA issue. They have not supplied ace flash training yet either. We have employees doing electrical work with NEC code violations on a daily basis.


remind them how 2 seconds can change their world forever 

I responded to this one not long after it happened - Contractor was set up to make a couple thousnad dollars doing a repair - going to end up costing the EC about a million now - osha fines, overtime, new gear, permits, loss of revenue for the business, medical bills ..........


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)




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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Seasoned is a good point, seasoned at what? Guys working on stuff at the plant are touching things I know I have no business working on. Fair enough for them to ask how I do some of the things I do. I could learn it, but not making that transition any time soon.


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## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

In response to some of the replies. At our facility everyone that is a senior tech is deemed qualified. The manager wants to use job title to determine who is qualified. No one has been given any training and all are required to work on energized equipment. As far as NEC code violations. All Sr. techs are required to do installs. Only two of us have any experience. Most violations are incorrect methods for installing conduit. Incorrect sizing of wire and devices. Not to fault anyone but the lack of code knowledge is the issue here. Most guys that work here are young and will not tell management they do not know how to do something. I'm worried about their safety and the liability they are assuming.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. damn shame. somebody is going to have to stand their ground (and probably be fired over it). eventually someone will see the light, but unfortunately it sounds like that light will be from an arc flash. be safe. good luck.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

If you are that concerned about safety, call OSHA. I'm not a safety freak, and I would walk off the job if OSHA showed up, but as Wildleg said, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Your other option is to call your State and inform them of unlicensed/unpermitted work. This could get you fired if you are one of the unlicensed.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Passthru said:


> The facility that I work for in West Virginia will not supply the technicians working for them Nec update classes. Can anyone tell me if this is a requirement? There policy states qualified individuals are Nec knowledgable. Thanks for the help.


Why wait for the boss to educate you? Get the education you need to perform at your best.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Celtic said:


> If it were really that simple.......why are so many seasoned electricians asking questions on this (and similar) forums on a daily basis?


Because they are either too lazy to buy the book or just don;t understand the code change as it is written....

Nothing wrong with asking questions if you fit into the reasons I listed.. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Because they are either too lazy to buy the book or just don;t understand the code change as it is written....
> 
> Nothing wrong with asking questions if you fit into the reasons I listed.. :thumbsup:


Many times - WE [speaking collectively of the forum membership] - cannot agree on a code interpretation. 
WE [collectively] generally have have years of experience, on going and continuous training, CEU requirements to be met, test prep classes, etc etc etc..

...and you think the NEC is a simple volume than anyone can pick-up, read, and understand?


WOW


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

wildleg said:


> after re-reading 1910.332, it appears that you only are required to be trained if you are going to work on energized equipment (risk of shock). Am I reading that right ?
> 
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9909


No, that’s not correct. OSHA requires _all_ employees who face a risk of electric shock that is not reduced to a safe level to be trained; employees in the occupations listed in Table S-4 face such a risk and are required to be trained, as should any other employees who may reasonable be expected to face comparable risk of injury due to electrical hazards 1910.332(a).

The degree of training provided shall be determined by the risk to the employee 1910.332(c). For example, a painter is not a qualified electrical worker and therefore does not need to be trained to use electrical test equipment, select appropriate enclosures for damp locations or size motor overloads; however, they should know clearance distances from overhead lines, requirements for cord-and-plug equipment and lockout/tagout procedures. 

At our company we require some basic electrical safety training for all nonqualified electrical workers which includes the company definition of qualified, hazards of electricity (shock, electrocution, falls, arc flash), reviews several examples of workplace fatalities to which nonqualified electrical workers may be exposed (example) and common violations such as the required space around electrical equipment and then proceed to cover MIOSHA-STD-1130 which is very similar to the federal OSHA regulations.

There are then additional requirements for qualified persons; remember, it must be considered energized until verified otherwise.

1910.332(b)(3)(iii)
• Note 1: For the purposes of 1910.331 through 1910.335, a person must have the training required by paragraph (b)(3) of this section in order to be considered a qualified person. 
• Note 2: Qualified persons whose work on energized equipment involves either direct contact or contact by means of tools or materials must also have the training needed to meet 1910.333(C)(2).

Safe guards for personal protection are covered in 1910.335 and PPE in 1910.137. The employer is required to assess the workplace for hazards, select and have employees use the appropriate PPE and train all employees required to use it 1910.132(f).


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## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

education is not required in WV. Our company policy state qualified individuals will be NEC knowledgable. This is not tested or documented. I'm not concerned about this for my personal education requirements but for the safety of others. Also we have been told that we need Arc Flash training for the last three years but it has not been supplied. All Sr Techs are deemed qualified Nd work on energized equipment.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

West Virginia does not have an approved state OSHA plan so it _is_ regulated by federal OSHA. This means that employees are required to be trained per federal OSHA regulations (control of hazardous energy, PPE, electrical safety related work practices).

http://www.oshatraining.com/osha-training-west-virginia.php

If your employer fails to train employees or provide PPE and they audited or there is an accident investigation, they will be fined if they cannot provide documentation showing they’ve met the minimum OSHA requirements.


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## Passthru (Apr 12, 2013)

I was looking at NFPA 70E 110.6. What would be your interpretation of this as far as this topic of conversation and possibly an individuals NEC knowledge?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Passthru said:


> I was looking at NFPA 70E 110.6. What would be your interpretation of this as far as this topic of conversation and possibly an individuals NEC knowledge?


I don't know if you have done a search here of this subject but, it has been discussed quite a bit. A member here Zog is very knowledgeable of the subject also. I know that the Plants and contractors that I have worked for were very serious about how they determined if you were qualified as an electrician and their training/procedures (written) making you quailified as 70E trained and certified to their standards. These standards met both the NEC and OSHA regulations.


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