# Age old topic....fall prevention



## Set271 (Mar 29, 2008)

21 years experience (and third generation)both working for and running my own jobs/contracts the one question that always seems to never be answered....or at the very least consistant. *"Tie-off"*.
OSHA requires tie-off to the basket, bucket, lift, etc.... especially if there is a labeled point on said lift apparatus. Safety meeting documents either supplied by the general contractor or insurance carrier have never been consistant.One would agree with OSHA and the next job/contract the safety standards on tie-off would conflict with OSHA. I've e-mailed OSHA about an industry wide standard on tie-off, but they seem to not want to get in the middle of the debate. I would like to hear/read some of your comments' on this subject. I understand that some people don't want to go down with the lift if it should fail/fall, but that could be worse in some situations. And, if not, why are the tie-off points there on the lift....decoration?


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## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

In the UK...tie off on a cherry picker, bucket, boom but NOT on a scissor lift....yet they all have anchorage points:whistling2: 

I for one would rather be hanging in mid air off a girder / side of a building than meeting the floor at 9.81m/s/s like something fired from a trebouchet!

There again it has never happened yet so I may be forced to change my perspective:laughing:


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

I was under the impression that osha no longer requires tie off on scissor lifts(for safety reasons). when I was in lift training a couple of years ago thats what we were told, and lift rentals are no longer supplied with a harness. I do not want to be tied to a lift thats going over


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I think Russian is on to something. At our current job site we rented four scissor lifts but, when they were delievered there were no harnesses. Our super says he will get the company to bring out new harnesses, GC foreman says we don't have to have harness as long as there are rails and toe boards. However, if we use the zoom booms we must wear a harness. Now the kicker the company building the plant has a policy that anyone entering/using any type of lift regardless of height will wear a harness and tie-off. Tie-off to what? Most supervisors turn and walk away from that question. The tie off questions come up all the time while using a ladder, at what height 6', 8', anything over 5'???


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

The answer for me is, tie-off to a stationary object. When push comes to shove, you do what you believe is the safest thing for you and the situation. 

Company policies look good on paper. But a company pociy that causes a person to be in an unsafe position rather than a safer position by using common sense, ought to result in the firing of the manager(s) who decided that one simple basic rule that has no exceptions is practical and doable and "safer."

Never perform any work you feel unsafe doing.


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## chefsparky (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok so what is the rule when it comes to working on a ladder? Do I tie off or not. Where can I find the rules? Some people tell me too. Some not. I am confused?


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## Old lectrician (Dec 27, 2007)

The following link is an OSHA guide on ladders.

http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3124.pdf



The following are links to OSHA on aerial lifts:

*1926.453(b)(2)(iii)* Belting off to an adjacent pole, structure, or equipment while working from an aerial lift shall not be permitted.

*1926.453(b)(2)(iv)* Employees shall always stand firmly on the floor of the basket, and shall not sit or climb on the edge of the basket or use planks, ladders, or other devices for a work position.

*1926.453(b)(2)(v)* A body belt shall be worn and a lanyard attached to the boom or basket when working from an aerial lift............


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## chefsparky (Mar 22, 2008)

Thank you for the infomation


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## Hawkeye_Pierce (Apr 3, 2008)

I think anything above 5'-0" lacking proper handrails requires you to be tied off.


Dont forget that fall prevention lanyards stretch quite a bit! Would not be fun to fall 9 feet attached to a lanyard that stretches to 10 feet


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

How many electrician's out there use "full" harness & lanyard gear?

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> How many electrician's out there use "full" harness & lanyard gear?
> 
> Chris


I'll start: "One!...."


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Haha... I guess I was just curious as to how many electrician's get into situations where they are hanging from full suspension gear..... and how often, as well.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> Haha... I guess I was just curious as to how many electrician's get into situations where they are hanging from full suspension gear..... and how often, as well.


OK, so I didn't make the differentation between 'wearing' and 'using' fall protection. In that case, I retract my "One!".

But yes, I wear mine. It's always riding in the truck right behind the drivers seat.

As a side note, has anyone checked the _expiration date_ on their fall PPE lately?


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Here I found this, not sure how many of you this will affect.....

*COMPLIANCE ALERT: The employer compliance deadline for OSHA’s final rule on payment for personal protective equipment (PPE) expired May 15th, 2008. All employers must ensure their compliance with this new regulation. *

The new regulation addresses employer payment for personal protective equipment (PPE), which is any safety equipment or device that must be worn in the workplace to prevent worker injury. Common examples of PPE include goggles, gloves, protective footwear, back belts, and ear plugs. To comply with PPE regulations, employers must survey their worksites to determine what type of PPE is needed, communicate those decisions to their workers, and provide the necessary equipment at no cost to the employee where required.
Failure to comply with OSHA regulations, including the new PPE rule, can result in fines up to $7,000 per violation.

Here's the part I found interesting: "...provide the necessary equipment at no cost to the employee..."


Chris


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Oh, and I just learned today that hard hats expire. Good for plastics.......

Chris


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

ANSI A10.32-2004 states the service life of fall protection equipment manufactured of synthetic fiber shall be 5 years unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer.

That took forever to find.....

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> .... "...provide the necessary equipment at no cost to the employee..."...


Roughly translated into plain English:

"Pay the hirelings less."


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> How many electrician's out there use "full" harness & lanyard gear?


I do. When in a bucket that is. The rest of the time it is in the locker in the van in the "SAFETY" tote.

I have yet to "hang" from it though.


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

"I have yet to "hang" from it though."

Probably want to keep it that way, huh.

Chris


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> Probably want to keep it that way, huh.


I went up the side of a 120' water tower once, on an open fixed ladder, NOT caged! 
That was the MAIN thing on my mind.


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

On Discovery, I've seen guys do maintenance/electrical work on some of the older wind turbines... 100 to 200 feet or so. Open, fixed ladder. Nutty stuff. 

You definetely have my respect on that one. I'll take the office gig, thanks.

Chris


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Here in FL, tie off is usually 6 feet or higher, I've had to tie off at 4 feet at 2 different power plants though. What a pain in the ass. It is more unsafe to tie off at 5 feet and step on the lanyard coming down the ladder, which happens regularly. That being said most safety is thrown out the window by the contractor in order to get the job done! Sad but true!


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

surfbh said:


> Here in FL, tie off is usually 6 feet or higher, I've had to tie off at 4 feet at 2 different power plants though. What a pain in the ass. It is more unsafe to tie off at 5 feet and step on the lanyard coming down the ladder, which happens regularly. That being said most safety is thrown out the window by the contractor in order to get the job done! Sad but true!


This is pretty much the way one of our larger customers wants us to work. To say it's a PITA is really putting it mildly.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

I don't know how many times I've stepped on the lanyard while on a ladder and it almost threw me off the thing. I used to think about being an elevator constructor till I wore a harness all day and saw those guys wearing one all day every day. F that!


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'll start: "One!...."


two here.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> How many electrician's out there use "full" harness & lanyard gear?
> 
> Chris


 
Three.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

Four


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

five -odd story- my brother works for a railroad and repairs bridges - coworker has a slip and fall - coworker is 300+ pounds suspended 80 - 100 feet in air - fall protection works no injury but no one can get him back up and they had to get a boom truck out to him to pick him up ... system wide safety policy changes next day


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Wow, bet that lanyard was screamin'. :w00t: Nice gear to support that, though.

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

nolabama said:


> five -odd story- my brother works for a railroad and repairs bridges - coworker has a slip and fall - coworker is 300+ pounds suspended 80 - 100 feet in air - fall protection works no injury but no one can get him back up and they had to get a boom truck out to him to pick him up ... system wide safety policy changes next day


 
What did they change in their safety policy? What brand was the harness/equipment he was using? Hell that's the brand I want to use.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

We issue each new employee a harness and double lanyard the first day they are on the job. It gets fitted for them and they are to keep it with them at all times. We also issue all other PPE including arc flash, gloves, hearing prot., hard hat, safety glasses, safety boots, etc....So their is no reason for them not to follow the rules.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

policy change was that a method of retrieval must be in place before entering workplaces that require fall protection such as a winch or boom - i mean think about it if its a bridge - you put yourself in a bit of danger if your pulling your buddy up from over the ledge - i know i don't ever want to hang from mine but if i do i would like to think i had a plan to get down, hanging from a harness would probably not be the best time to come up with that plan - i will call my brother and find out the brand random


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

nolabama said:


> policy change was that a method of retrieval must be in place before entering workplaces that require fall protection such as a winch or boom - i mean think about it if its a bridge - you put yourself in a bit of danger if your pulling your buddy up from over the ledge - i know i don't ever want to hang from mine but if i do i would like to think i had a plan to get down, hanging from a harness would probably not be the best time to come up with that plan - i will call my brother and find out the brand random


Thanks, I would appreciate that info.


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## k2x (May 20, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I went up the side of a 120' water tower once, on an open fixed ladder, NOT caged!
> That was the MAIN thing on my mind.


I climbed a 90 ft wooden pole, to work on an antenna, without knowing the condition of the pole underground and it was an old pole. That was dumb, i was young, but survived.


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

I once climbed a 90' pole without knowing it's condition..... you see, her father had a shotgun. I was young & dumb, but survived.

Chris


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## k2x (May 20, 2008)

*Fall training.*

I live 3 blocks from the olympic judo training center and worked out with them guys for many years. It is said the a judo "fall' is about the same as falling 18 feet or so. I don't know if I can prove that but i do believe that knowing how to fall is at least as important as fall protection . In almost 40 years of construction I have some serious falls under my belt with no injuries. touch wood... I did give up the judo , however, and the wrestling.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

k2x said:


> I live 3 blocks from the olympic judo training center and worked out with them guys for many years. It is said the a judo "fall' is about the same as falling 18 feet or so. I don't know if I can prove that but i do believe that knowing how to fall is at least as important as fall protection . In almost 40 years of construction I have some serious falls under my belt with no injuries. touch wood... I did give up the judo , however, and the wrestling.


 
After about 20 years of Aikido, I realized that the arthritis from all the constant joint abuse isn't worth the effort, nowadays I believe in just shoot and forget the hand to hand confrontation.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> I once climbed a 90' pole without knowing it's condition..... you see, her father had a shotgun. I was young & dumb, but survived.
> 
> Chris


 
Spent a summer in Va as a teen with my Godparents. Had the father of the girl next door shoot me in the back side with rock salt. When I explained the situation to my Godfather, he had me sit in the hottest bath water I could stand. Talk about learning a lesson, I have never been caught by a father since.


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## k2x (May 20, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> After about 20 years of Aikido, I realized that the arthritis from all the constant joint abuse isn't worth the effort, nowadays I believe in just shoot and forget the hand to hand confrontation.


I've found that fall training in Judo is quite different than fall training in the other martial arts, also different than training for sky diving.


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

Yea, I would give a parachute the title of the Ultimate "Fall Protection".

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Aiken Colon said:


> Yea, I would give a parachute the title of the Ultimate "Fall Protection".
> 
> Chris


 
Won't do you any good falling off a 12' ladder unless you land on it and crack some ribs.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

he believes the brand to be norgaurd - they make the retrieval system that they use also - and one other policy change - you can not be alone and use fall protection anymore - funny note they cant use fall protection until they are at 12 feet because they tie of at their feet instead of above their heads - they use what they call a rail dog - it slips over the head of the rail and allows them to walk around and it sorta slides around following them


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## Aiken Colon (May 16, 2008)

nolabama said:


> he believes the brand to be norgaurd - they make the retrieval system that they use also - and one other policy change - you can not be alone and use fall protection anymore - funny note they cant use fall protection until they are at 12 feet because they tie of at their feet instead of above their heads - they use what they call a rail dog - it slips over the head of the rail and allows them to walk around and it sorta slides around following them


The rules are kind of crazy. OSHA requires fall protection above 6' in certain applications. So technically if you change out a light bulb you have to have it. At that height you're suspose to only use a 3' lanyard. If you have it tied off 1/2 up a 6' ladder, that is still 0 fall protection.

Maximum fall distance is regulated at 6ft. So in a 100% tie off situation you are allowed a 6' lanyard. In any type of lifeline tie off situation you have to take in to account the slack in the lifeline. Most guys only use 3'-4' lanyards for that type of system. The problem with 3' lanyards is, they are very restrictive.

Just as a side note, if a device (lift, cage, etc) has a fall prevention (don't confuse with fall arrest or protection) system in place then you can get away with other fall resistant/fall prevention type gear.

JJ


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

*fall protectrion*

just thinking do not listen to me ,but i just went to a 10 osha course here in florida , i may be wrong, so dont get your old osha book out yet , you need the latest one . but the new changes i think to fall protection not out yet, but will be out ,i think they took out the 6 foot rule now any comments ? you still must be tied off but they do not give a distance ruling , anymore its you problem to be safe there not going to fine you but if you fall they will fine you . now thats just what i heard i maybe wrong ,there has been many changes but what we do is we use a retractable lanyard when working high it auto adjust for your fall but do not use the standard lanyard with it attach just the retractable . we dont tie off on a extention ladders ,we use to tie off above 6 foot when on a regular[ A frame ladder] can someone check this out ?bucket truck we tie off ,zizzer lifts we tie off , if were on top of a switchboard installing conduits we tie off ,we also have a new straps comes with our harness if you fall and are hanging up in the air certain length of time they say blood in your legs the flow is cut off this is bad news your heart beat gos up and you can pass out ,so they give us a new strap that if you can put your leg into it to take pressure off your legs you pick up your leg and strap your leg only after a fall while hanging . but id like to see the osha instructor do it when hes up 50 foot .i maybe wrong or out of line let me know ?


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