# Advantage/Disadvantage of 220V/50Hz and 110/60Hz?



## thanhvu94 (Feb 20, 2016)

Hi guys,

Does anyone know about the advantages and disadvantages of these 2 voltage standard? There must be some technical reasons for some countries to choose to use this one but not that one?

This is probably a very tough questions and I still can't find any good explanations for this on the Internet. I really hope that someone here can give me a good answer (not history again ).

Thank you.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

100 volts was about the highest voltage the first incandescent lamps could tolerate. 110 came around due to voltage drop as Edison's DC mains became longer. By the time lamps became available to tolerate more than 120 volts, there were already too many appliances and lights installed that used 110-120 volts in the U.S. so we stuck with it. By the time Europe began building an electric grid, higher voltage lamps were available, so it made sense to go with the highest voltage type available at the time, which was around 220 volts.

Frequency is a little harder to account for. A series of design changes and new discoveries about electromagnetic effects in induction motors changed their operating frequency several times in North America. There were 16-2/3 Hz motors, then 25, then 33, then 40, then 60. 60 is where it stopped for domestic power distribution in North America, and may have been tied to Tesla and calculations he made for optimal transmission efficiency.

In Europe, 50 Hz was almost certainly based on it being high enough to avoid visible light flickering and at the same time being a number that meshed nicely with the metric system.

The rest of the world bought their equipment from North American companies or European countries, and therefore ended up with those standards as well.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Europeans are manly men who don't mind getting 230V shocks! And 
the Scots don't want to pay for the larger wire required with lower 
voltages....(in a scottish accent) -> It's weee bit deer!


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

What's the advantage of a 220v. toaster, light bulb, or refrigerator? Most modern day stuff runs on wall warts, or power converters anyways, (5 & 12 vdc)


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## psgama (Oct 26, 2015)

Smaller wire size for the same power output.  the higher voltage is worth the additional shock hazard


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

The European 220v system was all about saving copper as well. That small change, combined with the use of ring circuits, would mean a house could effectively get by with about 2/3 less copper to deliver the same watts. 

At the time this system was devised, there were no such thing as low voltage or wall-wart operated devices (computers, game consoles, LED tvs, cellphones, laptops, etc...)


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

The best thing about the 230/400 system is that unlike North America with our five different voltage standards, they have a single system in their buildings and don't need to install 9 billion transformers everywhere. Total waste of copper, iron, space and energy consumed by transformer losses.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Prime mover energy was cheaper in North America.

The higher Hertz saved big time on transformer core sizes -- and the size of induction machines -- and even the size of the synchronous alternators.

The Europeans -- from the outset -- were erecting non-tariff trade barriers.

By the time they were jumping into the game, Edison and Westinghouse were ALREADY hyper-financed by J.P. Morgan -- who used every trick in the book to get Westinghouse's patents ( ie Tesla's ) cross licensed with General Electric ( ie Edison's)

Without active government intervention there was NO WAY that any European manufacturer could compete with the American invention juggernaut and American financial engine. 

( J.P. Morgan not only launched the American power industry as we know it -- he financed it -- and most of American big business, too.

( Today's Federal Reserve System is nothing more, nothing less, that the institutionalization of J.P. Morgan. He died in 1913 and HAD to be replaced.

J.P. Morgan thus founded America's final central bank.

He also cashed out Andrew Carnegie -- to create United States Steel -- the FIRST billion dollar corporation the world had ever known. 

( The Dutch East India company was not nominated in dollars. Heh. )

&&&

Since primary energy was more expensive in Europe, the decision was made to jump to 50 Hertz. This would confound most American induction motors -- they'd have to be de-rated. 

Since EE were in very short supply at the time, even that level of knowledge requirement was too much.

ALL of the rest of the differences between America -- the fountainhead of electricity -- and Europe the laggard -- turn on keeping American products out of the various European trading blocs that we term today as "The Colonial System."

These ruses were used as by that time America was THE critical manufacturing and trading partner for ALL of the Europeans. Any explicit tariff against Americans would've immediately resulted in counter-tariffs -- and Hell to pay with European exporters to America -- already a massively powerful political force across Western Europe.

&&&&&&&&&

This game is still afoot.

France famously would not let Japanese VCR machines in except at ONE airport in southern France.

There EVERY VCR had to be taken completely apart and remanufactured -- for "quality control" purposes. Heh.

Consequently, the Japanese never exported consumer oriented VCRs to France.

THAT'S what a non-tariff barrier looks like. :thumbsup:

&&&&&

The actual engineering practicalities NEVER held sway when these standards were adopted.

They were POLITICALLY engineered from the very start.

And the key politicians have gone on the record to state that very fact.


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## thanhvu94 (Feb 20, 2016)

So, will the 220V machine work well if we simply use a transformer to change the voltage from 110V to 220V? My prof says that there will be a problem due to the difference in frequency? Can anyone explain?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

thanhvu94 said:


> So, will the 220V machine work well if we simply use a transformer to change the voltage from 110V to 220V? My prof says that there will be a problem due to the difference in frequency? Can anyone explain?


It depends on what you want to power. Lights and electronics generally don't care about the frequency. Induction motors will run slightly slower or faster depending on their native frequency.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> 100 volts was about the highest voltage the first incandescent lamps could tolerate. 110 came around due to voltage drop as Edison's DC mains became longer. By the time lamps became available to tolerate more than 120 volts, there were already too many appliances and lights installed that used 110-120 volts in the U.S. so we stuck with it. By the time Europe began building an electric grid, higher voltage lamps were available, so it made sense to go with the highest voltage type available at the time, which was around 220 volts.
> 
> Frequency is a little harder to account for. A series of design changes and new discoveries about electromagnetic effects in induction motors changed their operating frequency several times in North America. There were 16-2/3 Hz motors, then 25, then 33, then 40, then 60. 60 is where it stopped for domestic power distribution in North America, and may have been tied to Tesla and calculations he made for optimal transmission efficiency.
> 
> ...



Almost. There used to be 50Hz and 133Hz in the US as well and both were in use at one time here in North America:


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3407530_The_origins_of_60-Hz_as_a_power_frequency

(send my a PM as I can not upload the above PDF here due to size constraint)

http://www.djtelectricaltraining.co.uk/downloads/50Hz-Frequency.pdf


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

thanhvu94 said:


> So, will the 220V machine work well if we simply use a transformer to change the voltage from 110V to 220V? My prof says that there will be a problem due to the difference in frequency? Can anyone explain?



It depends. Some wont care, some will run faster others will fail. Restive loads and universal motors will not care, but induction motors will spin faster and in turn may cause more drag (torque) on things like blowers which can overheat the motor.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

psgama said:


> Smaller wire size for the same power output.  the higher voltage is worth the additional shock hazard



Which is mitigated via RCDs and sleeved plugs. The high voltages used around the world have lead to some interesting engineering.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

joebanana said:


> What's the advantage of a 220v. toaster, light bulb, or refrigerator? Most modern day stuff runs on wall warts, or power converters anyways, (5 & 12 vdc)



Half the current. So 1000 watt toaster will pull 4 amps instead of 8 amps. A kitchen would need only 1 SABC for the same load, and 2,000 square foot home would need only 2 15 amp general use circuits instead of 4. Voltage drop is also less since voltage drop halves when the voltage is doubled for the same current, and a quadruple reduction for the same wattage (double voltage half amperage) .


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

thanhvu94 said:


> So, will the 220V machine work well if we simply use a transformer to change the voltage from 110V to 220V? My prof says that there will be a problem due to the difference in frequency? Can anyone explain?


As a practical matter, the solution has been to adopt VFD.

China makes them for peanuts.

The power electronics inside a Variable Frequency Drive both changes the frequency and the voltage -- by just punching values in at the key pad.

For most loads -- say a lathe -- even the cheapest VFD is sufficient.






If you listen carefully, the voice over mentions that this unit can just as easily accept 240 Volt AC power. In fact, it could accept 240 Volt DC power... something that no-one encounters in practical experience.

Regardless of the input, it's all converted to DC, and then the power electronics does its tricks to create the variable frequency and voltages required.

Consequently, more and more often, it's MORE practical to drop in a VFD than to bother with a transformer.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> Half the current. So 1000 watt toaster will pull 4 amps instead of 8 amps. A kitchen would need only 1 SABC for the same load, and 2,000 square foot home would need only 2 15 amp general use circuits instead of 4. Voltage drop is also less since voltage drop halves when the voltage is doubled for the same current, and a quadruple reduction for the same wattage (double voltage half amperage) .


I was thinking from the safety aspect. For commercial/industrial applications I could see it, but where "Joe home owner" gets involved, is dying twice as fast really an advantage?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

joebanana said:


> I was thinking from the safety aspect. For commercial/industrial applications I could see it, but where "Joe home owner" gets involved, is dying twice as fast really an advantage?




My theory is unless you know what you are doing stay out. But I do agree, 120 volts is a LOT safer when you have no clue that you have no clue.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

thanhvu94 said:


> So, will the 220V machine work well if we simply use a transformer to change the voltage from 110V to 220V? My prof says that there will be a problem due to the difference in frequency? Can anyone explain?



Here is one example of a device that will not work well on 50Hz and why:









What the video does not mention is that the linear motor in the shaver can also over heat from magnetic saturation since 50Hz has a larger wave.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

AcidTrip said:


> My theory is unless you know what you are doing stay out. But I do agree, 120 volts is a LOT safer when you have no clue that you have no clue.


120v. isn't necessarily "safer", it can still kill ya, but it only hurts half as much if you get bit.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

joebanana said:


> 120v. isn't necessarily "safer", it can still kill ya, but it only hurts half as much if you get bit.




Yes and no. But it tend to be more forgiving. Especially is you damage a cable:


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