# Is this legal for AC outlet?



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Mrmanly said:


> Hi,
> 
> This may be a stupid question but I can't find anything that prohibits this.
> 
> ...


Nope.. no can do.. just run 12/4 and the problem is solved.. :thumbsup:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Mrmanly said:


> Hi,
> 
> This may be a stupid question but I can't find anything that prohibits this.
> 
> ...


 

No! No!


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

B4T said:


> Nope.. no can do.. just run 12/4 and the problem is solved.. :thumbsup:


 
No! No!


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> No! No!


Whywhy not??:blink:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Go for it. :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Nope.. no can do.. just run 12/4 and the problem is solved.. :thumbsup:


Not true at all. Large 480 volt roof top units can be ordered with a 480X120 step down transformer to feed the local 120 volt receptacle and service light. This situation is no different.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would say it depends on the load. IMO, you may be allowed to do it assuming the neutral is run with the other conductors.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

B4T said:


> Whywhy not??:blink:


 
Sharing a neutral. That is also a dildo MWBC. Are you going to find a tripple pole breaker for that? Dildos, it is them.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Go for it. :thumbsup:


Pete he is a new guy and doesn't understand the "climate' here yet..be nice..


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Read article 210.23(A)(2)


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Pete he is a new guy and doesn't understand the "climate' here yet..be nice..



I _am_ being nice. I am saying he should go for it because what he describes does not violate any codes, IMO. If it was a 30 amp circuit, then he would be in violation.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Mrmanly said:


> Hi,
> 
> This may be a stupid question but I can't find anything that prohibits this.
> 
> ...


 

Just run a 12-2 from the panel and add a 20 amp breaker.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would say it depends on the load. IMO, you may be allowed to do it assuming the neutral is run with the other conductors.


That is why I say 12/4.. and having a transformer involved is a completely different animal..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> Just run a 12-2 from the panel and add a 20 amp breaker.


12/2 is for the compressor.. 12/2 is for the receptacle.. that equals 12/4.. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree with peter and dennis, the receptacle would be properly protected, I don't see an issue. 



doubleoh7 said:


> Sharing a neutral. That is also a dildo MWBC. Are you going to find a tripple pole breaker for that? Dildos, it is them.


He said 12/4 so I'm assuming he means a 2 wire 240 circuit and a 2 wire 120 circuit, no MWBC.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> That is why I say 12/4.. and having a transformer involved is a completely different animal..


You could have a 60 amp feeder requirement for your A/C unit, set a small 4-circuit panel, use a 2-pole breaker for your a/c unit and a single 15 or 20 for your service receptacle. Either way, I see no issue using the a/c unit feeder for this as long as it has proper OCP. 

Of course I am just shooting from the hip with no code to back me up, but I'm fairly certain I'm on solid ground. :jester:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Mrmanly said:


> Hi,
> 
> This may be a stupid question but I can't find anything that prohibits this.
> 
> ...


I've done it plenty times before, 9 out of 10 if the unit is being serviced, the disconnect will be in the OFF position. The country is in a recession , hacky or cheap is acceptable to continue making money. I still laugh at all those squaring off rough work wasting resources and profit only to have it covered with sheetrock or cieling tiles.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

B4T said:


> That is why I say 12/4.. and having a transformer involved is a completely different animal..


I agree that your suggestion is fine but that is not what the op asked. If his a/c load is not more than 50% of the circuit he can do what he stated, IMO.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I _am_ being nice. I am saying he should go for it because what he describes does not violate any codes, IMO. If it was a 30 amp circuit, then he would be in violation.


I went through this last summer and the inspector told me NO.. I needed separate set of conductors for receptacle.. it was for a RTU..


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

B4T said:


> 12/2 is for the compressor.. 12/2 is for the receptacle.. that equals 12/4.. :thumbsup:


 
12/3 is for the compressor.. 12/2 is for the receptacle.. that equals 12/5


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I went through this last summer and the inspector told me NO.. I needed separate set of conductors for receptacle.. it was for a RTU..


Did you ask him if he was drunk? :laughing:


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm not debating that it's legal, I feel that it is. I however don't think I would ever do it. I don't really know why, but this exact situation came up 2 weeks ago and I stood there debating in my head whether or not to do it and finally decided screw it and ran an extra 14-2


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> 12/3 is for the compressor.. 12/2 is for the receptacle.. that equals 12/5


Might try counting that one again, unless you are talking a 3 phase ac.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

doubleoh7 said:


> 12/3 is for the compressor.. 12/2 is for the receptacle.. that equals 12/5


You are assuming 3 phase. I think this is single phase.


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

No neutral for the ac, my bad. It's been a long day.:laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I would do this in a heartbeat.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I would do this in a heartbeat.


We all know you would. Ha. Like I said, I have no problems with it just personally don't feel like I would do it. Possibly in a bank owned forerclosure or a dump in the slums, then I would at least entertain the idea.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I would do this in a heartbeat.


And you may not be compliant but I guess you don't care.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> And you may not be compliant but I guess you don't care.


I do care actually. I don't see the problem, is all.


----------



## Mrmanly (May 23, 2010)

I ran this by the electrical inspector today while he was inspecting the service for a townhouse I am doing. He's stumped but is going to check it out for me.

PS. Its single phase.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> Just run a 12-2 from the panel and add a 20 amp breaker.


 How 's the 120v outlet going to work..:blink:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> No neutral for the ac, my bad. It's been a long day.:laughing:


Oh i see that now...woops:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm saying its legal in this case provided it meets 

210.23(A)(2), the 50% dennis was talking about 
210.63, specifically not putting the receptacle on the load side of the disco


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I would do it without question for a 20 A circuit, as long as the feed had the right number of conductors to begin with. Even if it was a circuit larger than 20 A, I might drill a hole and put a fuse holder:whistling2:


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I would do it..If its in the disco no one will probably use it anyway...No one will know its there...I think this came up in MH a few years ago and no one had any real reason why you couldnt...? running a 12/4 is a waste. The guy will have to spend a small nut on a full roll and it wont ever get used....I say let it roll and see what happens..If someone is going to use the outlet for maintance they will proably turn off the unit anyway....Am I the only cat that bends the rules once in a while...?


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I would do it..If its in the disco no one will probably use it anyway...No one will know its there...I think this came up in MH a few years ago and no one had any real reason why you couldnt...? running a 12/4 is a waste. The guy will have to spend a small nut on a full roll and it wont ever get used....I say let it roll and see what happens..If someone is going to use the outlet for maintance they will proably turn off the unit anyway....Am I the only cat that bends the rules once in a while...?


The receptacle will still work even when you turn off the disconnect. You tap the receptacle off of the line side lugs of the disconnect. 

And no you are not the only one who bends the rules. I know I do all the time. I mean there's no way I'm going to lose sleep over overloading and 18 cubic inch box by one conductor. Give me a break.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I do care actually. I don't see the problem, is all.


I posted the article that I believe showed it wasn't compliant but I agree it would probably never be an issue. Passing inspection may be the issue though.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I would do this in a heartbeat.


Of course you would because you are a hack.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

> 210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration
> Equipment Outlet. A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-
> ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed *at an accessible
> location for the servicing of heating, airconditioning,
> ...


Seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the code is to have the receptacle energized while the equipment is de-energized. That's the only way I've ever wired RTU's.


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the code is to have the receptacle energized while the equipment is de-energized. That's the only way I've ever wired RTU's.


That's what they are talking about still, tapping a GFCI off the wires before they are landed on the pullout.


----------



## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the code is to have the receptacle energized while the equipment is de-energized. That's the only way I've ever wired RTU's.



See my post a few before this.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the code is to have the receptacle energized while the equipment is de-energized. That's the only way I've ever wired RTU's.


Where were you ? line side was the conversation, an added neutral was the objective.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Guys, I can't believe this has gone so far. :jester:

I don't want to shock you but all 25 - 30 roof top receptacle outlets at a Loews are each powered by the same circuit that supplies the RTU they are mounted to.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

For the past 20 years I have been pulling the extra circuit for the receptacle on RTU's. I have yet to see any contractor install the receptacle unless it's a line item on the contract. 
The units aren't always turned off during maintenance or repairs here. Most of ours are multiple compressor units.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> For the past 20 years I have been pulling the extra circuit for the receptacle on RTU's. I have yet to see any contractor install the receptacle unless it's a line item on the contract.
> The units aren't always turned off during maintenance or repairs here. Most of ours are multiple compressor units.


At Lowes for instance, the RTUs arrive on the job with building in disconnect switch and built in service GFCI service receptacle, because the circuit is 480 volt 3 phase and around 100 amps there is also a built in transformer with over current protection, all of that is tapped on the line side of the disconnect so you can shut the unit down while the receptacle stays hot as the NEC requires.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Around here everything has to be on the contract or we don't get it. Normally we get the factory left overs or units built to someone elses order and not installed. 
Having the tranny for the receptacle is something never added. 
Our engineering dept is almost clueless. 
They are only good at redesigning their own office. 
I like to drag the circuit up there and when possible I'll also mount a light to shine down on the units. We get alot of midnight call in's for the AC crew and I try to make life easier for them. If the unit is ground level then I don't bother with a light.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Guys, I can't believe this has gone so far. :jester:
> 
> I don't want to shock you but all 25 - 30 roof top receptacle outlets at a Loews are each powered by the same circuit that supplies the RTU they are mounted to.


The OP was using a single phase 20 amp. 220V circuit.. the Lowes RTU units you are talking about are a different setup..

The OP wanted to use one leg of 220v and a neutral for the required receptacle..

So you did not read the first page.. :no:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> The OP was using a single phase 20 amp. 220V circuit.. the Lowes RTU units you are talking about are a different setup..
> 
> The OP wanted to use one leg of 220v and a neutral for the required receptacle..
> 
> So you did not read the first page.. :no:


I'm pretty sure none of that information bypassed him. 

The situation with large RTU's and transformers is exactly the same as the OP's scenario because you are still using the branch circuit that solely supplies the a/c unit to also supply the service receptacle. Can't you see that is the case?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I'm pretty sure none of that information bypassed him.
> 
> The situation with large RTU's and transformers is exactly the same as the OP's scenario because you are still using the branch circuit that solely supplies the a/c unit to also supply the service receptacle. Can't you see that is the case?


There is a BIG difference.. you are dealing with a product designed to give you 120V for the required receptacle.. no extra conductors to pull..


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> There is a BIG difference.. you are dealing with a product designed to give you 120V for the required receptacle.. no extra conductors to pull..


Never mind. I give up. :blink:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I'm pretty sure none of that information bypassed him.
> 
> The situation with large RTU's and transformers is exactly the same as the OP's scenario because you are still using the branch circuit that solely supplies the a/c unit to also supply the service receptacle. Can't you see that is the case?


It is different. If that were a 30 or 40 amp unit how would that be legal. Bob's units are designed for that and I assume they have ocpd to boot.

Again I see nothing logistically wrong with pulling a neutral but 210.23(A)(2) would appear to not allow it in some cases. I am not as familiar with 440 so there may be something in there that allows it- IDK.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is different. If that were a 30 or 40 amp unit how would that be legal. Bob's units are designed for that and I assume they have ocpd to boot.
> 
> Again I see nothing logistically wrong with pulling a neutral but 210.23(A)(2) would appear to not allow it in some cases. I am not as familiar with 440 so there may be something in there that allows it- IDK.


If you had a 30 or 40 amp unit you could add local OCP and be good to go, as I stated earlier in the thread.

The end result is the same regardless of using a transformer or local OCP. You're still "tapping" the branch circuit to feed the required service outlet.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> The OP wanted to use one leg of 220v and a neutral for the required receptacle..


What's the problem with that? I looked through 440 and couldn't find anything. 

I do the same for resi wells and ejector pumps. Pull a neutral for the controls and the GFCI and the service light.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> There is a BIG difference.. you are dealing with a product designed to give you 120V for the required receptacle.. no extra conductors to pull..


What exactly don't you understand? I'm really baffled by this.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> The OP was using a single phase 20 amp. 220V circuit.. the Lowes RTU units you are talking about are a different setup..
> 
> The OP wanted to use one leg of 220v and a neutral for the required receptacle..
> 
> So you did not read the first page.. :no:


I read it all, and the only code issue is the one that Dennis brought up. 210.23(A)(2) and the size of the unit.

But there is no code issue supplying 240 and 120 outlets from a MWBC.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What exactly don't you understand? I'm really baffled by this.


You are taking part of 480V and using a transformer to supply 120V for a receptacle..

The disco and transformer are doing the work.. you feed one end and the correct voltage comes out the other end already connected to the receptacle..


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> You are taking part of 480V and using a transformer to supply 120V for a receptacle..
> 
> The disco and transformer are doing the work.. you feed one end and the correct voltage comes out the other end already connected to the receptacle..


The point is in both case the NEC allows tapping the circuit to HVAC units for service receptacles assuming you can comply with 210.23(A)(2)


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> If you had a 30 or 40 amp unit you could add local OCP and be good to go, as I stated earlier in the thread.
> 
> The end result is the same regardless of using a transformer or local OCP. You're still "tapping" the branch circuit to feed the required service outlet.


So all that is telling us is that you can run a feeder o the unit. Of course, but that is not what the op was asking.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ.. I got your (5000) post.. do I get a free lunch with that.. :jester:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The point is in both case the NEC allows tapping the circuit to HVAC units for service receptacles assuming you can comply with 210.23(A)(2)


I agree with that...:thumbsup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So all that is telling us is that you can run a feeder o the unit. Of course, but that is not what the op was asking.


Yes, if the unit was above 20 amps and I added local OCP, then it would be a feeder and not a branch circuit. If it was 20 amps I would do exactly as the OP describes and run a 12/3 to the unit and tap it for the GFCI.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, if the unit was above 20 amps and I added local OCP, then it would be a feeder and not a branch circuit. If it was 20 amps I would do exactly as the OP describes and run a 12/3 to the unit and tap it for the GFCI.


and would you ignore 210.23?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> and would you ignore 210.23?


Considering I don't know what it says at the moment, yes, I would ignore it. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> BBQ.. I got your (5000) post.. do I get a free lunch with that.. :jester:


You should be buying me lunch. :thumbsup:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

.........................



> (2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Can someone post a pic of a FLA=20A ac unit?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Can someone post a pic of a FLA=20A ac unit?



What color???:blink::blink::laughing:


----------

