# How do you gain experience or learn a niche in the trade?



## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Drop out of the union. Land a maintenance job. New construction can sometimes be a pit. 

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Peewee0413 said:


> *Drop out of the union.* Land a maintenance job. New construction can sometimes be a pit.


Worst advice I have seen here.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Look for and apply for a job like this one 
Solutions Specialist I - HVAC Controls/Building...

Siemens Corporation

Then google them
siemens building automation positions
What you don't know, they will train you.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Worst advice I have seen here.


But doesn't explain why.............Must be a union member lol

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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

OP is wanting more than conduit. A lot of companies regularly hire contractors to do the less technical stuff, like run conduit and pull cable.. Sorta stuff he's trying to get away from. Im sure he works for a contractor. I think i might be making a point here.. I learned the most in the shortest time being a maintenance electrician at a company. Instead of installing what has already been designed, I was able to be a part of the design. Seen the good and bad. Learned from my mistakes after seeing the equipment in services day after day.

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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Welcome to Electrician Talk.
And I second the motion to continue with the union.

Peewee. I learned everything I know about controls in a non union manufacturing environment.
But I also lost out on whats even more important.
My future.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

John Valdes said:


> Welcome to Electrician Talk.
> And I second the motion to continue with the union.
> 
> Peewee. I learned everything I know about controls in a non union manufacturing environment.
> ...


I probably would have quit electrical early on if i didn't fall into the controls side. I can't see myself doing anything else now. My future couldve been fast food if I didn't leave new construction. I also know if you invest 10% in 401k when your 18 and work to retirement, your future has plenty of 0's. 

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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

ibewmatt said:


> I've been in the trade 10 years and quite frankly I'm bored of bending pipe and pulling wire. Recently, I took an industrial controls class and was really drawn to troubleshooting and installing more complex systems such as HVAC controls, instrumentation and building automation.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is I have next to no experience doing any of this work and since I am a journeyman in the union, I find it difficult take a job call where I can learn these skills since they require experience. Currently studying for the EPRI "A" exam for instrumentation but is there any other route I can take to learn on the job? I'm not opposed to taking classes, going to a community college or even traveling to get the experience. I want to stay busy when the economy inevitably slows down again. Currently in the Bay Area in California if that makes a difference.




Take all the classes you want. Unless they are lab classes with a hands off instructor your only gonna learn about 25percent of what you need to know.

You can grab used control parts on eBay and the like. Get some, make something. If you can’t think of anything to make maybe youre a pipe and wire guy after all [emoji3]

Find the makers club in your area. I’m sure the bay has dozens at least. Just join and hang out. You’ll soon have dozens of projects you want to do. If not, you don’t have the imagination for troubleshooting. Get the parts you need and learn to make them do what you want by reading the manuals and tinkering with em. 

In all seriousness you need hands on of some sort. If you think you’re going to learn everything you need to know and then be good at it you are dead wrong. Every troubleshooting instance you come upon is going to make you feel like you don’t know anything. You’ll have to love learning unless you plan on just working on one brand and one system. In which case you’ll just end up bored again if you truly have the heart of a control guy. 




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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

ibewmatt said:


> I've been in the trade 10 years and quite frankly I'm bored of bending pipe and pulling wire. Recently, I took an industrial controls class and was really drawn to troubleshooting and installing more complex systems such as HVAC controls, instrumentation and building automation.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is I have next to no experience doing any of this work and since I am a journeyman in the union, I find it difficult take a job call where I can learn these skills since they require experience. Currently studying for the EPRI "A" exam for instrumentation but is there any other route I can take to learn on the job? I'm not opposed to taking classes, going to a community college or even traveling to get the experience. I want to stay busy when the economy inevitably slows down again. Currently in the Bay Area in California if that makes a difference.




Dude! You’re so ****in lucky. Makers Faire is happening THIS weekend in San Mateo. Go. If you’re the gregarious type you are sure to make contacts that will help guide you. At the very least you’re gonna see some cool **** and get tons of ideas on what to work on to teach yourself controls. GL


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Im not sure I could do industrial controls in a union environment. Since most company's have now combined E&I it may be easier. Half of my time is spent troubleshooting and working on complicated systems that are probably neither E or I.

I have nothing against unions and I was a member years ago and its a good concept the trouble begins when controls runs in to mechanical and other trades. Do you want to spend all day explaining to a mechanic (who thinks your a overpaid lazy princess) what needs to tried and tested or do you want the freedom to grab a wrench to see if a O-ring has jammed a hydraulic flow control valve. As for pay and conditions in a non-union jobs im payed well and treated like a princess because when no one else can fix it im the one whos stuck with it.


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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

gpop said:


> Im not sure I could do industrial controls in a union environment. Since most company's have now combined E&I it may be easier. Half of my time is spent troubleshooting and working on complicated systems that are probably neither E or I.
> 
> I have nothing against unions and I was a member years ago and its a good concept the trouble begins when controls runs in to mechanical and other trades. Do you want to spend all day explaining to a mechanic (who thinks your a overpaid lazy princess) what needs to tried and tested or do you want the freedom to grab a wrench to see if a O-ring has jammed a hydraulic flow control valve. As for pay and conditions in a non-union jobs im payed well and treated like a princess because when no one else can fix it im the one whos stuck with it.




I prefer to be called a Prima Donna thankyouverymuch. 


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Flyingsod said:


> Take all the classes you want. Unless they are lab classes with a hands off instructor your only gonna learn about 25percent of what you need to know.
> 
> You can grab used control parts on eBay and the like. Get some, make something. If you can’t think of anything to make maybe youre a pipe and wire guy after all [emoji3]
> 
> ...


Arduino. Its a poor mans plc and the sensors and parts are dirt cheap.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

Peewee0413 said:


> OP is wanting more than conduit. A lot of companies regularly hire contractors to do the less technical stuff, like run conduit and pull cable.. Sorta stuff he's trying to get away from. Im sure he works for a contractor. I think i might be making a point here.. I learned the most in the shortest time being a maintenance electrician at a company. Instead of installing what has already been designed, I was able to be a part of the design. Seen the good and bad. Learned from my mistakes after seeing the equipment in services day after day.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Peewee, valid points and thanks for the input. The union has been great to me and I have learned a lot. I feel at this point I have hit a ceiling as far what type of work I'm doing. It has been new construction and TI work for the last 2 years. Data centers, science labs and law schools are fun but I'm itching for more brain work. I am not opposed to learning outside of the union, however I would obviously prefer to stay. Had a guy in my class who went to work for Johnson Controls after we turned out and he now oversees some large accounts in Seattle. I have also been told to look into the refinery work here in the Bay Area at Chevron and Shell.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

John Valdes said:


> Welcome to Electrician Talk.
> And I second the motion to continue with the union.
> 
> Peewee. I learned everything I know about controls in a non union manufacturing environment.
> ...


Thank you, John. I have learned a tremendous amount and have been given a lot of opportunities in the union, the pension ain't bad either. I would much prefer to stay but I'd like to be involved with more problem solving and cutting edge stuff. Possibly get into working at a refinery around here in the future.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

Wirenuting said:


> Look for and apply for a job like this one
> Solutions Specialist I - HVAC Controls/Building...
> 
> Siemens Corporation
> ...


Thank you, Wirenuting. A former classmate of mine works for Johnson Controls and started this way, I will look into this


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Peewee0413 said:


> But doesn't explain why.............Must be a union member lol
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


The suggestion is so idiotic it really doesn't need any explanation.

Hourly wage, healthcare, retirement, hours, working conditions, those are the primary reasons.

It's extremely rare non-union is anywhere near close on any level.


Anyone that knows the benefits of being a union member compared to non-union across the board would never say leave the union for a maintenance position.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think that paths are many and varied. From most of the personal stories I know about, it's a long series of small decisions that led a guy to a niche trade, and most seem to have stumbled into it somewhat accidentally with no real preplanning or forethought. I'd love to offer you turn-key advice into doing the building automation work you desire, but I'm coming up empty. If I was you, I'd just start beating on doors at controls outfits and see what shakes out.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Without wanting to have any union / non-union battle ... I'll just say what I personally see, the people I know, union or non-union, that work in automation, whether it's industrial PLC stuff or building automation. 

None of them just took a call from the hall to go start working in PLCs or building automation. Most of the jobs are full time permanent positions. All of them applied for a job at company with a large industrial facility, a contractor that specializes in industrial controls, or with a company like Johnson Controls that services large commercial facilities. Most (but not all) had some education or training to get them in the door. 

It's possible it happens that people just get some basics and start taking calls and somehow become automation specialists but it has to be a small percent, at least around here, because I have never met someone who got into it that way. 

So my point for the OP is the hall probably isn't what's going to get you into the field.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Peewee0413 said:


> I probably would have quit electrical early on if i didn't fall into the controls side. I can't see myself doing anything else now. My future couldve been fast food if I didn't leave new construction. I also know *if you invest 10% in 401k when your 18 and work to retirement, your future has plenty of 0's.*


Funny, I didn't invest my own money in my two retirement accounts and there are still plenty of 0s in the bottomline.

Go union bro!


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

FWIW, 

I started on controls, knowing nothing about it, when I took a job as a field engineer for a large corporation that made custom machines for the Post Office.

I learned more in 6 months building machines with hands on work, than you'll ever learn in a 4 yr school or apprentice program with the unions.

The pay was a little low, but the benies were awesome. And per diem and paid days off in different cities across the country made up for it.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

As for the Arduino suggestion and tinkering - I like all that stuff, I have played with some of those boards. However if I was going to try to use it to get a job I might go for something more like actual industrial / commercial products. Think terminal blocks rather than breadboards. To me the Arduino, the Pi, etc. are more relevant to embedded electronics design. 

For example put two sump pumps in your house and build a lead-lag pump controller with an Micrologic PLC. Or put in a home automation system and learn something about lighting controls and HVAC controls.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> Im not sure I could do industrial controls in a union environment. Since most company's have now combined E&I it may be easier. Half of my time is spent troubleshooting and working on complicated systems that are probably neither E or I.
> 
> I have nothing against unions and I was a member years ago and its a good concept the trouble begins when controls runs in to mechanical and other trades.* Do you want to spend all day explaining to a mechanic (who thinks your a overpaid lazy princess) what needs to tried and tested or do you want the freedom to grab a wrench to see if a O-ring has jammed a hydraulic flow control valve. * As for pay and conditions in a non-union jobs im payed well and treated like a princess because when no one else can fix it im the one whos stuck with it.


When one works for a company that does both electrical and mechanical and you are sent out on a service call first as the problem is normally electrical and you find a suspected mechanical issue doing what is required to make a complete diagnosis is up to you.

I have diagnosed and repaired/replaced many mechanical components. 

This being short of where a system would need refrigerant reclaimed/removed, etc. 

I've repaired/replaced many pumps, flow switches, flow controls, LWCO's, pressure switches/transducers, etc, etc without incident or reprimand. 

In my entire career I've never told my boss "it's not in my scope of work".


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> When one works for a company that does both electrical and mechanical and you are sent out on a service call first as the problem is normally electrical and you find a suspected mechanical issue doing what is required to make a complete diagnosis is up to you.
> 
> I have diagnosed and repaired/replaced many mechanical components.
> 
> ...


That's really refreshing to hear. 

Electricians are often called because no one else can sort it out, so "it must be electrical". Once we figure out it's not electrical, it's often up to us to fix it anyhow because no one else could either.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Funny, I didn't invest my own money in my two retirement accounts and there are still plenty of 0s in the bottomline.
> 
> Go union bro!


So inaccurate. You do pay, its taken off the top before you get paid. You most likely pay for newbies to go to school and retired workers pensions. 

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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Peewee0413 said:


> So inaccurate. You do pay, its taken off the top before you get paid. You most likely pay for newbies to go to school and retired workers pensions.
> 
> Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


So instead of 80bux an hour they are making 60 plus....yeah that must suck!


Lol

Texting and Driving


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> That's really refreshing to hear.
> 
> Electricians are often called because no one else can sort it out, so "it must be electrical". Once we figure out it's not electrical, it's often up to us to fix it anyhow because no one else could either.


I have worked for several companies that had multiple trades under the roof, most electrical and mechanical.

Most service calls started with sending me out to find a DDC control system problem as most were under contract so a service call applied to the contract minimum response requirements.

If I found something like a system low on charge I'd call the shop to send a HVAC/R tech to leak check and repair.

If I found it to be a bad sensor or transducer I'd swap it out and finish out the call faster than if I just called it in and they had to wait for an HVAC/R tech.

90% of HVAC/R repairs are electrical in nature (including mechanical-electrical components), the majority of the rest are a leak or broken compressor.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> So instead of 80bux an hour they are making 60 plus....yeah that must suck!
> 
> 
> Lol
> ...


Or maybe $105+.....just saying.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Most of the time my motivation for just finishing the repair was to avoid the time and drama of explaining the troubleshooting procedure I went through and why/how I determined what the problem really was to the wrench... and the back and forth questioning and debate that often follows. I ain't got time for that nonsense, so I just do it. I spent enough time figuring out the problem. I don't really like the additional time involved in convincing someone else.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Or maybe $105+.....just saying.


Yeah that really sucks! Lol

Texting and Driving


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Peewee0413 said:


> So inaccurate. You do pay, its taken off the top before you get paid. You most likely pay for newbies to go to school and retired workers pensions.


Yup, clueless.

With a total package amount that could send the average non-union worker into heart failure and still a great take home wage why would I care about the amount I received in benefits? 

It was going to come back to me in the long run anyway.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Yeah that really sucks! Lol
> 
> Texting and Driving


Yeah it almost made me feel bad for the guys from NJ locals that made less.

But then I figured they didn't have to pay NY income tax and forgot about their hourly wage.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> gpop said:
> 
> 
> > Im not sure I could do industrial controls in a union environment. Since most company's have now combined E&I it may be easier. Half of my time is spent troubleshooting and working on complicated systems that are probably neither E or I.
> ...



So the union mechanic are cool with you touching there stuff and getting there over time


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yup, clueless.
> 
> With a total package amount that could send the average non-union worker into heart failure and still a great take home wage why would I care about the amount I received in benefits?
> 
> It was going to come back to me in the long run anyway.


I've never spent any time thinking about pay and benefits differences between union and non union. I know a lot of non union people forgot that their company pays a big portion of insurance and matches 401k to some percent. 

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

gpop said:


> So the union mechanic are cool with you touching there stuff and getting there over time


Never had any complaints!


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## phineascage (May 16, 2018)

ibewmatt said:


> I've been in the trade 10 years and quite frankly I'm bored of bending pipe and pulling wire. Recently, I took an industrial controls class and was really drawn to troubleshooting and installing more complex systems such as HVAC controls, instrumentation and building automation.
> 
> The issue is I have next to no experience doing any of this work and since I am a journeyman in the union, I find it difficult take a job call where I can learn these skills since they require experience. Currently studying for the EPRI "A" exam for instrumentation but is there any other route I can take to learn on the job? I'm not opposed to taking classes, going to a community college or even traveling to get the experience. I want to stay busy when the economy inevitably slows down again. Currently in the Bay Area in California if that makes a difference.


You may consider taking an entry level maintenance position in an industrial or commercial type industry. My first exposure to I&C was as a greener than green maintenance mechanic position that I hired on as in my early 20s. Learn by doing has been a great way for me. Good luck with your path forward!


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Don't know for sure.*

Can you not take any calls and go work for a non union shop and still pay your union dues. This would get you some experience in controls then go back and work union, since you can't get the experience in the union.

No idea if this is allowed.

Cowboy


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

splatz said:


> As for the Arduino suggestion and tinkering - I like all that stuff, I have played with some of those boards. However if I was going to try to use it to get a job I might go for something more like actual industrial / commercial products. Think terminal blocks rather than breadboards. To me the Arduino, the Pi, etc. are more relevant to embedded electronics design.
> 
> For example put two sump pumps in your house and build a lead-lag pump controller with an Micrologic PLC. Or put in a home automation system and learn something about lighting controls and HVAC controls.


 
I agree and one of the first things I bought while learning plc's was a half rack plc-5 and a couple of remote I/O's. 
We edit on the live program which isn't the best place to be learning so having my own plc really helped. 
The biggest problem is going to be getting a copy of the software.

When we started changing out to control logics I found it confusing as I had no back ground in C++ so I was advised to try the arduino. $20 and a week later made control logics so much easier to understand. 

I still like to play with the arduino. Its not industrial by any means but it will teach you the idea behind tx/rx, inputs, outputs, relays, analog, floating voltage, etc and the software is free.

It would also be good experience for the OP to see if he really wants to be a control guy. A few hours sitting there wondering why something is not working when it should work will either interest him or make him quit.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

One place you can get experience with controls while still working construction and staying in the union is the water / wastewater industry, affectionately known as "joining the poop troop". There are some large union shops in the Bay Area that specialize in those projects, many of which are large and take years to complete. Blocka Construction, Cupertino Electric and Rosendin Electric are all large union shops that tackle these big "brown trout farms" and are basically always hiring. Sure, you will have to bend pipe and pull wire TOO, but if you keep your eyes open in those projects, you will see opportunities to grow. They need that in their pipeline.

The thing is, YOU have to manage your career path, nobody is going to do that for you just because you think you deserve it or because you went to enough classes. What people REALLY want is initiative.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> When one works for a company that does both electrical and mechanical and you are sent out on a service call first as the problem is normally electrical and you find a suspected mechanical issue doing what is required to make a complete diagnosis is up to you.
> 
> I have diagnosed and repaired/replaced many mechanical components.
> 
> ...


I've long maintained that a good controls electrician is about half electrician and half millwright. 

I can't think of how many times I've gone to an 'electrical' service call only to find the actual issue is mechanical. On these calls, if I can fix the mechanical part, I will. 

The more you know about the mechanical stuff, the more valuable you'll be. Not just money but often you're in demand enough that you can pick which calls you want to take.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> I've long maintained that a good controls electrician is about half electrician and half millwright.
> 
> I can't think of how many times I've gone to an 'electrical' service call only to find the actual issue is mechanical. On these calls, if I can fix the mechanical part, I will.
> 
> The more you know about the mechanical stuff, the more valuable you'll be. Not just money but often you're in demand enough that you can pick which calls you want to take.


All very true!


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I think that a good controls guy can listen to the engineer, operators, wrenchs and management knowing that some of the crap you are being told goes against the laws of physics. Normally somewhere in the conversation little bits of information can be found that points to the problem. 

Nothing like finding some one has used the conduit as the ground for a weld they were doing 100' away.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

gpop said:


> I think that a good controls guy can listen to the engineer, operators, wrenchs and management knowing that some of the crap you are being told goes against the laws of physics. Normally somewhere in the conversation little bits of information can be found that points to the problem.
> 
> Nothing like finding some one has used the conduit as the ground for a weld they were doing 100' away.


Yes indeed, take what you're told with several grains of salt......


A couple of days ago, I was called to a 30HP pump on a VFD that wouldn't go at any speed other than 14.9HZ. I was told it worked yesterday and today it didn't. 

So I went through the parameters and found nothing wrong. Even the deep ones were all ok. The motor current was about what I'd expect given the speed it was operating at so it wasn't mechanical. 

Since 'it worked yesterday', I wasn't looking for an installation error but after quite a bit of troubleshooting, I found the analog input was set for 0 - 10V and the actual signal was 4 - 20mA. 

"It worked yesterday"........


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

if you are looking for an introductory to plc/slc then the cie bookstore plc course is handy for you.
you get the course materials and if you get the hardware lab you get a micro plc and an assortment of sensors, lamps, & buzzers!
they are good to practice with and worth the cost.
I purchased one for training the new apprentices at the plant i just retired from.
they could assemble and program it as they wished without having to actually interfere with the companies installed automation.
we even used it to teach control wiring (using a spare portable conveyor and photo sensors & contactors)


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## Instrumentation (Mar 11, 2018)

I fell into it accidentally, one of those "it's not what you know but who you know" situations.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Instrumentation said:


> I fell into it accidentally, one of those "it's not what you know but who you know" situations.


I think a LOT of us got in that way........


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

micromind said:


> I think a LOT of us got in that way........


The right place and the right time for me.


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## Westward (Mar 3, 2018)

One thing for sure, if you want to go somewhere, you have to pilot the ship. Is there a commissioning team in your local? Who is the last to leave the site? When I commission a larger project, l often request a competent electrician from the install team to stay for any rewires. You be that guy. When you pipe and pull, do you investigate why things are done that way? When there is a need to clarify with engineers, do you lead the quest? As a controls technician, I always look for electricians that can take charge.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

JRaef said:


> One place you can get experience with controls while still working construction and staying in the union is the water / wastewater industry, affectionately known as "joining the poop troop". There are some large union shops in the Bay Area that specialize in those projects, many of which are large and take years to complete. Blocka Construction, Cupertino Electric and Rosendin Electric are all large union shops that tackle these big "brown trout farms" and are basically always hiring. Sure, you will have to bend pipe and pull wire TOO, but if you keep your eyes open in those projects, you will see opportunities to grow. They need that in their pipeline.
> 
> The thing is, YOU have to manage your career path, nobody is going to do that for you just because you think you deserve it or because you went to enough classes. What people REALLY want is initiative.


Thanks for the reply. I understand initiative, thats exactly why I'm asking for advice.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

phineascage said:


> You may consider taking an entry level maintenance position in an industrial or commercial type industry. My first exposure to I&C was as a greener than green maintenance mechanic position that I hired on as in my early 20s. Learn by doing has been a great way for me. Good luck with your path forward!


Thank you for the advice, phineascage


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

gpop said:


> I agree and one of the first things I bought while learning plc's was a half rack plc-5 and a couple of remote I/O's.
> We edit on the live program which isn't the best place to be learning so having my own plc really helped.
> The biggest problem is going to be getting a copy of the software.
> 
> ...


I took a few C++ classes a summer ago and did some FPGA programming in a Digital Design class, I had a blast.


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## ibewmatt (May 10, 2014)

Westward said:


> One thing for sure, if you want to go somewhere, you have to pilot the ship. Is there a commissioning team in your local? Who is the last to leave the site? When I commission a larger project, l often request a competent electrician from the install team to stay for any rewires. You be that guy. When you pipe and pull, do you investigate why things are done that way? When there is a need to clarify with engineers, do you lead the quest? As a controls technician, I always look for electricians that can take charge.


The last few projects I have done the commissioning was done by the mechanical contractor. I would install the VFD's and hook them up and he would commission everything. I'm naturally pretty curious and ask my coworkers and boss questions about information I don't understand, I've been doing mostly lighting controls lately because I understand the systems better.


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