# half burried radiant pools



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I went to look at a 52" metric pool install. They dig a hole backfill around the pool. It has aluminum sides and vinal liner. *Will be grass around pool.* I haven't done a pool since the bonding requirements changed. I assume the aluminum shell will need to be bonded. The water will also have to be bonded by the 9sq" correct? And what would be the best way to do the equip grid around it?


Do not forget perimeter bonding, got to bond the grass out 3' from the edge.




> 680.26(B)(2) Perimeter Surfaces. The perimeter surface shall extend
> for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of
> the pool and shall include unpaved surfaces as well as
> poured concrete and other types of paving. Bonding to perimeter
> ...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob just like you being a thanks button virgin(almost) I ave only done grids around hot tubs. I ran the #8 six inches deep and took it to the motor. Is that what I do here? Is there an easy way to bond the aluminum shell? For the pool water what do you recommend. Im also doing a hot tub here but I got experience doing them! Any help is appreciated!


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

http://www.bondsafe680.com/inground.html


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bob just like you being a thanks button virgin(almost) I ave only done grids around hot tubs. I ran the #8 six inches deep and took it to the motor. Is that what I do here? Is there an easy way to bond the aluminum shell? For the pool water what do you recommend. Im also doing a hot tub here but I got experience doing them! Any help is appreciated!


 

The bondsafe is a good product. But keep in mind if there's enough metal ladder in the pool, that can account for your 9 sq in.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bob just like you being a thanks button virgin(almost) I ave only done grids around hot tubs. I ran the #8 six inches deep and took it to the motor. Is that what I do here? Is there an easy way to bond the aluminum shell? For the pool water what do you recommend. Im also doing a hot tub here but I got experience doing them! Any help is appreciated!


I would do it the same as a Hot Tub but I would also bond the structural steel, if there is any, at 4 points around the pool. Read art. 680.26(B)(2)


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Ok thats the water bond or the ladder if its metal. Whats the best way to bond the shell and how to do the equip grid? Murphy is not answering his pm's so I don't know who else to ask.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I usually find a hole to nut and bolt a lug to on the bottom of the pool supports. 

Make sure you use a "lay in" lug for direct burial.
I run the #8 solid around the pool and go in to the lug and back out 4 times until I get all the way around. The # 8 connects to the lug in the motor.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would do it the same as a Hot Tub but I would also bond the structural steel, if there is any, at 4 points around the pool. Read art. 680.26(B)(2)


 

So if I read that correctly. I have an aluminum /foam/vinyl pool being dug into the ground, no steel so I should be able to run a #8 six inches deep around the perimeter of the pool for my equip grid. I would use a lug from the aluminum frame of the pool to connect a ground wire to the motor?
I also have to bond the pool water.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sounds like you got it right but the steel must be connected to the perimeter loop also. The entire equipotential grid is tied together. Everything metal associated with the pool must bonded to the grid. You can have one big continuous loop or you can use split bolts to different areas of the pool. I prefer the one continuous loop


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Sounds like you got it right but the steel must be connected to the perimeter loop also. The entire equipotential grid is tied together. Everything metal associated with the pool must bonded to the grid. You can have one big continuous loop or you can use split bolts to different areas of the pool. I prefer the one continuous loop


 

Thanks Dennis. Ok what steel are you refering to? Remember I'm a little slow. I understand everything must be tied to grid. Is bonding the frame to the equip grid in one spot ok? I have the handbook and will look over art 680 tonight. I just want to know what im reading.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bob just like you being a thanks button virgin(almost) I have only done grids around hot tubs.


I have not wired a pool from start to finish in at least 25 years, I have done a few bits and pieces of hotel pools or spas. Truthfully I don't feel like I am qualified to do one from start to finish now. To much has changed.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I have not wired a pool from start to finish in at least 25 years, I have done a few bits and pieces of hotel pools or spas. Truthfully I don't feel like I am qualified to do one from start to finish now. To much has changed.


 
I want to do a quality job. I think with all the information I can gather from here, my nec hand book and a call or two to the inspector if needed I can handle it. All I know about ART 680 is how to wire a hot tub.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I want to do a quality job. I think with all the information I can gather from here, my nec hand book


That is what I would do if I had to wire a pool, I would ask questions here to make sure I was not missing something.

There are parts of the code I know very well, then there are the parts I have no clue about. :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> That is what I would do if I had to wire a pool, I would ask questions here to make sure I was not missing something.
> 
> There are parts of the code I know very well, then there are the parts I have no clue about. :laughing:


 
And I would miss something if it was not for you guys.:thumbsup:

I know enough to realize I have a lot to lean about a lot of things.
Everyday is a learning experience for sure.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I said steel but I meant the metal (alum) frame of the pool. Sorry.

I also want to state that we don't do the EPB around here. The pool installers take care of that as well as the pool lights.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I said steel but I meant the metal (alum) frame of the pool. Sorry.
> 
> I also want to state that we don't do the EPB around here. The pool installers take care of that as well as the pool lights.


 
Thank you Dennis. Am I correct only one spot of the aluminum frame needs to be bonded? Does the "4 points" only apply if rebar is present?

This is a kit pool bought from oasis pools. They only dig hole and install pool. The light is an over the side with a cord 15ft long. You plug it into a gfi protected outlet. So I have to include the epb in my bid. And since it does not have a drain I'm still not of the best way to bond the water.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Thank you Dennis. Am I correct only one spot of the aluminum frame needs to be bonded? Does the "4 points" only apply if rebar is present?.


The 4 points only needs to be installed on conductive pools.



> And since it does not have a drain I'm still not of the best way to bond the water.


There are things you can buy to do this. one is the bond safe 680 which has been mentioned already.

Here is another method gotten from this site


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 4 points only needs to be installed on conductive pools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the price of this item? I paid 36 bucks for the bondsafe 680. All the distributors listed on that site, not one has anything listed about it.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The bondsafe is a good product. But keep in mind if there's enough metal ladder in the pool, that can account for your 9 sq in.


Good luck with that theory!!!

Every above ground pool ladder I have encountered since this code took effect has been plastic.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 4 points only needs to be installed on conductive pools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That would only bond the water if the motor was running.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

william1978 said:


> That would only bond the water if the motor was running.


William, I don't believe you are correct. Read the info from the site I posted. It tells you where to locate the fitting where the water will stay filled in it.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> William, I don't believe you are correct. Read the info from the site I posted. It tells you where to locate the fitting where the water will stay filled in it.


I was looking at the picture's that were on that site and they showed it going right on the pump and when the motor I don't think the water would be in that part of the pipe.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 4 points only needs to be installed on conductive pools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Gotcha. Since this has a vinyl liner it is non conductive.:thumbsup: Thank you for your help Dennis and everyone else. Now I gotta figure out what to charge.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Gotcha. Since this has a vinyl liner it is non conductive.:thumbsup: Thank you for your help Dennis and everyone else. Now I gotta figure out what to charge.


That is not right!!!

*Conductive pool SHELL* the liner is not conductive thus the reason for the bonding of the water.

And as William pointed out that water pipe bond method would not be code compliant,now I remember why my supply house doesn't carry them only the bond-safe 680.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> That is not right!!!
> 
> *Conductive pool SHELL* the liner is not conductive thus the reason for the bonding of the water.
> 
> And as William pointed out that water pipe bond method would not be code compliant,now I remember why my supply house doesn't carry them only the bond-safe 680.


 


I read 680.26(b)(1)and see where I misread the conductive part. Now I'm confused. I thought I only had to bond 1 corner of the aluminum frame.But you are saying I have to bond all 4 corners and attach to the EBG? If the pipe bond Dennis listed isn't code compliant what is the best method since I have a plastic ladder and no drain?



Dennis I think im confused now. So I run a #8 around the pool. 4 corners must be attached or looped to the grid. If there will be concrete or pavers around pool it must be 3ft from the inside wall of pool. If not 12 to 18 inches is ok.

I must bond the pool water. I think I will call my ahj and see what they want on this.

Do I have it all right this time?


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

Here are a couple write ups on ART.680


http://ecmweb.com/nec/top2008neccxs_021909/

http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/pools-and-spas-090401/


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I got a call into our assistant chief inspector. I'll let her tell me what they want and bid off of that. Thanks to all of you who gave me your input!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I got a call into our assistant chief inspector. I'll let her tell me what they want and bid off of that. Thanks to all of you who gave me your input!


John, I hope you let us know what the chief says. BTW, it was nice talking to you this morning.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> John, I hope you let us know what the chief says. BTW, it was nice talking to you this morning.


 
They want each individual panel bonded(10 of them). They said the skimmer bond is accepted. So I guess I'm good to go. Thanks again guys! Nice talking to you to Dennis.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> John, I hope you let us know what the chief says.


 I agree. I would be very interested in to what she has to say about it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> They want each individual panel bonded(10 of them). They said the skimmer bond is accepted. So I guess I'm good to go. Thanks again guys! Nice talking to you to Dennis.


I thought they may want that. Not sure if that can be found in writing or whether it is there gut feeling on it. It makes sense, I guess-- that means top and bottom ring also... Yes?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought they may want that. Not sure if that can be found in writing or whether it is there gut feeling on it. It makes sense, I guess-- that means top and bottom ring also... Yes?


Im not sure what you mean by top and bottom ring.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Im not sure what you mean by top and bottom ring.


The aluminum supports are held together by a metal band.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The aluminum supports are held together by a metal band.


 
You know I didn't ask that. I think I should of. Thanks Dennis


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Something like this


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> They want each individual panel bonded(10 of them).


If this is a pool such as Dennis shows than that is a ridiculous request.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> They want each individual panel bonded(10 of them). They said the skimmer bond is accepted. So I guess I'm good to go. Thanks again guys! Nice talking to you to Dennis.


It would be expected that the pool metal components would be bonded, but maybe they would be effectively bonded by virtue of their mechanical fasteners and then bonded once.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is an above ground pool from the oasis website.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> If this is a pool such as Dennis shows than that is a ridiculous request.


It would depend on how well the struts were connected. They may just snap together in which case you may want to bond each slat.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd like to see what the pool in question looks like. What exactly is a "radiant pool" . Is it just very beautiful? Does it emit heat of some sort?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd like to see what the pool in question looks like. What exactly is a "radiant pool" . Is it just very beautiful? Does it emit heat of some sort?


 
I can't describe it. Google radiant pools. This one is designed to be half burried. Its a metric 52 what ever that means. It is 52" deep.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Looks like radiant pool is a brand name and have an R-10 rating in the walls.



> Applying the same technology used to build airplanes and spacecraft, this is the only pool constructed of patented structural insulated panels with 2" think walls of EPS foam insulation bonded between layers of aluminum.
> EPS foam insulation withstands freeze-thaw cycling without losing structural integrity or R-Value.
> The acrylic-coated aluminum walls resist oxidation and corrosion and provide extra liner protection.
> All aluminum components make this pool completely rust free.
> The Radiant Pool wall is stronger than steel, polymer, even 12" of concrete and it will never rust, warp or crack.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I just checked it out. I watched the installation video. I don't know how you would even bond that once let alone attaching to it 10 times.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

This looks like what the OP is explaining. http://www.patiostore.com/Poolstore/trojan/Trojan_Home.html


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