# Live Work



## Black Dog

power said:


> I am not a lineman. I am only an electrician.
> 
> It seems that many electricians are very hesitant to doing work live. As a business owner, I see the apprentices are "spooked" after getting out of each term of trade school. To them, doing live work is tantamount to a criminal record deserving the death penalty. For months, they are unwilling to even splice something live.
> 
> QUESTION (Please: For _*experienced*_ lineman only, _*serious*_ comments only)  :
> 
> 1) Do you guys accomplish live work regularly?
> 
> 2) Are you guys always dressed up in arc flash outfits for live work that is deemed as minor?


Are you talking about high voltage 1,000 volts + ?


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## Safari

power said:


> I am not a lineman. I am only an electrician.
> 
> It seems that many electricians are very hesitant to doing work live. As a business owner, I see the apprentices are "spooked" after getting out of each term of trade school. To them, doing live work is tantamount to a criminal record deserving the death penalty. For months, they are unwilling to even splice something live.
> 
> QUESTION (Please: For _*experienced*_ lineman only, _*serious*_ comments only)  :
> 
> 1) Do you guys accomplish live work regularly?
> 
> 2) Are you guys always dressed up in arc flash outfits for live work that is deemed as minor?


I work in a company that has a continuous line process so there is no way you can switch it off. I work mostly live. However any short with ground will cause the main isolater to trip (2500A) . So iam very careful here.

However in any other machines I wont work live.

I only see arc flash suits in the web.havent used one !


BTWN

We cant always be serious man. We have to joke.this trade man with all its challenges you cant afford to be all the time serious


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## ScooterMcGavin

I'm not a lineman but I work with a lot of them. They do pretty much all overhead distribution work hot (12kv). That being said, they are trained from day one how to work on hot lines and they have all the insulating equipment to do it. Changing a pole with energized lines is regular work. They will sleeve the conductors, use insulating matts, hot gloves, hot sticks in an Insulated bucket truck. The other thing to keep in mind is that striking an arc in a big open area is a lot different than striking an arc in an enclosed piece of switchgear. In open air everything goes up and dissipates in the air. In switchgear its all channelled towards you. The utility around here requires level 2 FR at all times no matter what unless you are in an office.


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## gnuuser

scameron81 said:


> I'm not a lineman but I work with a lot of them. They do pretty much all overhead distribution work hot (12kv). That being said, they are trained from day one how to work on hot lines and they have all the insulating equipment to do it. Changing a pole with energized lines is regular work. They will sleeve the conductors, use insulating matts, hot gloves, hot sticks in an Insulated bucket truck. The other thing to keep in mind is that striking an arc in a big open area is a lot different than striking an arc in an enclosed piece of switchgear. In open air everything goes up and dissipates in the air. In switchgear its all channelled towards you. The utility around here requires level 2 FR at all times no matter what unless you are in an office.



precisely! this is a specialty (linesman) requiring specialized equipment and procedures and training.
seasoned electricians have the skills and the knowledge to run live if needed but our biggest complaint is *if it can be isolated to perform the job **then it must be! *
no amount of percentage bonus is worth the life of me or anyone else


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## MXer774

power said:


> I am not a lineman. I am only an electrician.
> 
> It seems that many electricians are very hesitant to doing work live. As a business owner, I see the apprentices are "spooked" after getting out of each term of trade school. To them, doing live work is tantamount to a criminal record deserving the death penalty. For months, they are unwilling to even splice something live.


 
Overhead distribution requires a different skill set than an electrical contractor. As for apprentices, ground men, they should have fear of handling energized cables/ equipment. I work for a contractor that offers both overhead distribution and electrical contracting servicing. In my experience I am more apt to wear my flash suit when on the ground surrounded by energized equipment that I serve . Equipment voltage ranges 120-35kv. However, when I'm in the insulated bucket, I will mostly wear hardhat, headlamp, safety glasses, and FR clothing. Only coming into contact with conductors with sticks or properly rated gloves.


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## Big John

Not a lineman, but I've also worked with lots of them. The biggest difference I've seen is the attitudes towards PPE. I'm sure there are cowboy linemen, but as a group, they seem to take their PPE extremely seriously because they know that's what sends them home at night. I went through the same safety training as the lineys when I started with the utility, and that was taught like a religion.

I can't say the same for electricians. As a group they seem way more cavalier and way more prone to the idea that their talent alone is what keeps them safe, and it seems like many disdain PPE. 

As long as that difference exists, I will never argue that electricians should have the same live-work privilege as linemen. I think the ability is there, it's the attitude that fails.


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## denny3992

scameron81 said:


> I'm not a lineman but I work with a lot of them. They do pretty much all overhead distribution work hot (12kv). That being said, they are trained from day one how to work on hot lines and they have all the insulating equipment to do it. Changing a pole with energized lines is regular work. They will sleeve the conductors, use insulating matts, hot gloves, hot sticks in an Insulated bucket truck. The other thing to keep in mind is that striking an arc in a big open area is a lot different than striking an arc in an enclosed piece of switchgear. In open air everything goes up and dissipates in the air. In switchgear its all channelled towards you. The utility around here requires level 2 FR at all times no matter what unless you are in an office.


This is big....

The other thing to keep in mind is that striking an arc in a big open area is a lot different than striking an arc in an enclosed piece of switchgear. In open air everything goes up and dissipates in the air. In switchgear its all channelled towards you.


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## don_resqcapt19

power said:


> ...
> It seems that many electricians are very hesitant to doing work live. As a business owner, I see the apprentices are "spooked" after getting out of each term of trade school.


 In general working live electrical equipment for other than troubleshooting is a violation of the OSHA rules.


> To them, doing live work is tantamount to a criminal record deserving the death penalty.


 It often results in an unintended death penalty.


> For months, they are unwilling to even splice something live. ...


They have been correctly taught that, in general, live work for electricians is prohibited.


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## chicken steve

There are old electricians, and bold electricians......


~CS~


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## Walkman

don_resqcapt19 said:


> In general working live electrical equipment for other than troubleshooting is a violation of the OSHA rules. It often results in an unintended death penalty.
> They have been correctly taught that, in general, live work for electricians is prohibited.


The following quote is from NFPA's website.

NFPA 70E requirements for safe work practices to protect personnel by reducing exposure to major electrical hazards. Originally developed at OSHA's request, NFPA 70E helps companies and employees avoid workplace injuries and fatalities due to shock, electrocution, arc flash, and arc blast, and assists in complying with OSHA 1910 Subpart S and OSHA 1926 Subpart K.


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## power

Thanks for all your comments. I have read all of them up to this post. :thumbsup:

@Black Dog = Yes, I was referring to voltages above 1kv.

@nickson = Thanks for your input. It's interesting to hear from an electrician in central Africa.

@scameron81, gnuuser, MXer774, Big John, denny3992, and Walkman = Thanks all for your posts. You put some decent time into them. Thanks guys! 

@dan_resqcapt19 = Thanks, I am wondering if the US OSHA is the same as CAN OSHA. It likely is very similar.....which means, I better get versed in their specific requirements.

@ chicken steve = You are bang on right. I am probably too much of both! "Old" I can't fix.......but "Bold" I can. Thanks :thumbsup:


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## KDC

I'm in agreement with Big John. 

Training and equipment are a lot different once you get to linework and higher voltages. 

The training focuses on safety and procedure, and the equipment is designed so there's at least 2 lines of protection between you and any voltage. 

Look around the forum for what some electricians think of as proper PPE when doing live work. You'll probably find things like plywood, couple of wraps of 88 tape, maybe a set of leather gloves, if you're lucky. 

Lineman? Proper class gloves for the voltages (tested in the last 6 months, field inspected before use), hotstick (tested in the last year, inspected and cleaned before use), Job plan outlining the work to be done, potential hazards, and barriers to remove or minimize said hazards.

Personally, I'm not a lineman, I'm a Power Electrician (known in other parts as a substation electrician) so I do deal with the higher voltages and we're taught from the same rulebook as the linemen.


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## Zog

power said:


> @dan_resqcapt19 = Thanks, I am wondering if the US OSHA is the same as CAN OSHA. It likely is very similar.....which means, I better get versed in their specific requirements.


In Canada you need to adhere to CSA Z462 which is about the same as our NFPA 70E. As a business owner it is your responsibility to have written safety procedures in place, provide training to your employees, and provide the PPE the job requires.


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## triden

There is nothing wrong with doing work live, but you need PPE. The problem is, how much PPE do you wear? Unless an Arc Flash study was done, you don't know. For this reason, live work should not be done on anything without an arc flash study. Sure, you can use the tables and approximate what you should wear, but I doubt the average electrician will know what the potential fault current at the node they are working is. 

CSA Z462-12 defines a qualified person as “one who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and systems, and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.”

CSA Z462-12 Clause 4.3.5.4 requires that equipment that is likely to 
be examined, adjusted, serviced, or maintained while energized shall be 
field-marked with a label containing all of the following information:
a) At least one of the following:
•	Available incident energy and the corresponding working distance
•	Minimum arc rating of PPE
•	Required level of PPE; or
•	Highest Hazard/Risk Category for the equipment
b) Nominal system voltage
c) Arc flash boundary; and
d) Date of the hazard analysis

Today, I just spec'd an interrupter switch and relay (SEL-751A) that uses optical arc flash detection technology. When the light coil detects an arc, it can trip within 2ms and limit the amount of energy into the fault. Relays can essentially reduce the amount of PPE required on most systems which is why I am a huge advocate for them. The only problem is that you usually need to use a Versruptor instead of an average SF6 switch which drives up the cost.


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## lagunavolts

I am a lineman, and the industry is moving towards "de-energized" work methods as a whole. I started off as an electrician then became a lineman. Working ing as an electrician we always worked hot , without ppe. As a lineman ppe is first and foremost. 
We can not become scared of electricity. We need to respect it and know what should happen when we complete a task! Hot work should not go away, especially in the electrical field, as well as for the utilities.


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## Michigan Master

triden said:


> There is nothing wrong with doing work live, but you need PPE.


OSHA and the NFPA-70E would disagree; I’d be willing to wager CCOHS and the CSA Z462 would also. While there are scenarios where live work is acceptable (such as less than 50V, greater hazard, or infeasibility), simply wearing PPE doesn’t make all live work okay. 

PPE is to be used as the last resort and is least effective method to minimize or eliminate exposure to hazards according to the hierarchy of controls. As is often the case, if no single measure can be used to eliminate or sufficiently reduce the hazard, then a combination of controls must be used. 

Elimination of the hazard through de-energization is of course the most effective option; however, the optical arc flash detection relay you mentioned is a good example of engineering controls. Other methods may include remote breaker racking, remote switch actuators, energy-reducing maintenance switches, and arc resistant switch gear. Additional administrative controls consisting of policies, procedures and training are likely also required.


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## Ontario

Had a home owner refuse the right to turn off the breaker to his bedroom because he wanted his computer on at all times (probably because he's too impatient to restart it and wait a while). Therefore, we would work live (which still disconnected the power to his computer).

The idiot then said, "If you guys don't work live, then what am I paying you for? I'm paying you to take risks."


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## Big John

"No, you're not paying me at all. Have a good day, sir."


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## Sparky J

He was probably a day trader like the jackwagon I yelled at when he had a bad neutral and freaked on me when I asked to turn it off. 
Funny thing is this was a rental property and the property manager I've know for years told me I should have turned off the main.


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## power

I find young electricians are particularly "spooked".....likely because of the increased emphasis trade schools are placing on it, and the "runaway train" of the safety industry today. 

Experience is a BIG factor! When I was a young electrician, doing work live wasn't given a second thought......we grew up with it. Actually, I prefer to do work hot . I rarely turn off the breaker. If your not grounded, you won't get shocked. So, when making (or breaking) a live splice, don't touch anything conductive....it's just that simple!


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## Zog

It's not that simple, you are missing the whole point. It's all about liability, do you have any idea what the average cost of a major surviavable electrical accident is? Since the NFPA is written by insurance companies do you think your insurance will pay for that if you violate industry standards? Do you think an industrial facility will let you work like that on thier property when they are fincancially liable for anything that happens to you as a contractor on thier property?


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## power

To Zog: I agree with you, your right. The legal and financial consequences of an electrical accident are apparently considerable......certainly not worth the risk.


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## Big John

_Power_, I was in agreement when you said some live work could be done reasonably safely with proper evaluation of risk and correct use of PPE, but this quote pretty much says the opposite of that:


power said:


> ....Experience is a BIG factor! When I was a young electrician, doing work live wasn't given a second thought......we grew up with it. Actually, I prefer to do work hot . I rarely turn off the breaker. If your not grounded, you won't get shocked. So, when making (or breaking) a live splice, don't touch anything conductive....it's just that simple!


 In my opinion, the fact that people advocate this approach is the reason we *shouldn't* do live work. Because it's really not "that simple" and a lot of guys have gone to the grave with that attitude.


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## Jlarson

KDC said:


> Look around the forum for what some electricians think of as proper PPE when doing live work. You'll probably find things like plywood, couple of wraps of 88 tape, maybe a set of leather gloves, if you're lucky.


You forgot cardboard out of the roll off dumpster. :laughing:


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