# Hate these



## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

There's so little to be said for them and the amount of pita they add for people who have to work on things in the field is just not worth it. I hate them!#=&!!!

End of rant.

Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Often necessary in high vibration environments.

So, you have to crimp them... and then bolt them down.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This is like kicking a puppy, how can you hate that poor little crimp connector? It works great and it never did anything to anybody!


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

If you guys would quit running #6 AWG to condensing units with a 19A MCA, we wouldn't have to keep using them on the cheap contactors manufactures use without box lugs!


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Certain application they are a must like CT secondaries and trip circuits of protective relays but most of the time forks work fine.
LC


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I'm right there with you Flying, I can't count how many times I've had to take some wires loose in some cramped peckerhead. I back the screw out a little and pull on the wire?!?! What the ****?!?! Why won't it pull out? Oh, it's not a fork it's a damn ring terminal!!!

Alright, I think I feel better now!:jester:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cow said:


> I'm right there with you Flying, I can't count how many times I've had to take some wires loose in some cramped peckerhead. I back the screw out a little and pull on the wire?!?! What the ****?!?! Why won't it pull out? Oh, it's not a fork it's a damn ring terminal!!!
> 
> Alright, I think I feel better now!:jester:


Forked terminal in a peckerhead ?

Good grief !


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

telsa said:


> Forked terminal in a peckerhead ?
> 
> Good grief !


Ground. 

Usually one of the terminal box mounting screws. 

I will almost always use rings for grounds except motors. I use forks mainly because the screws are difficult to remove and even harder to get threaded back in.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> Ground.
> 
> Usually one of the terminal box mounting screws.
> 
> I will almost always use rings for grounds except motors. I use forks mainly because the screws are difficult to remove and even harder to get threaded back in.


I like the hybrid ones that kind of snap onto the screw.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

telsa said:


> Forked terminal in a peckerhead ?
> 
> Good grief !


Come on! We as an industry have to get over some of the crap our forefathers drilled into us... No fork terminals, no wirenuts


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

A good compromise


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> A good compromise


Haven't seen or used those in a long while.


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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

I don't buy the high vibration school of thought. It seems sound on the outside but if you dig into the logic it falls apart. What are we saying about the vibration? Obviously we are not saying that a ring terminal will somehow stop a screw from backing out. So what will happen is that the screw will back out and you'll get a loose connection. We are saying a loose connection is better than no connection? Maybe sometimes. In safety circuits that protect life you may want that. If you're trying to prevent overheating or sparking you don't want a ring terminal just hanging on a bolt. You want the connection to come loose so it will have to be re-installed properly. If the thought is that a ring terminal cant be pulled out of its connection by accident we are missing the point that the crimp is the weak link and it will come apart as easily as a ring, fork, or pin termination.

The proper remedy for a high vibration termination is a lock washer, not a ring terminal. The proper remedy for accidental tugging is a cable clamp below the termination point.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

If you have a screw holding screwdriver I don't really see and issue with backing out the retaining screws and getting them back in.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If you have a screw holding screwdriver I don't really see and issue with backing out the retaining screws and getting them back in.


You talking about kleins split shaft screwdrivers? I made the mistake once as an apprentice of trying to torque with one. Whoops!

I have one, but they make 3 sizes and are really handy for anybody from residential to industrial. 

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> You talking about kleins split shaft screwdrivers? I made the mistake once as an apprentice of trying to torque with one. Whoops!
> 
> I have one, but they make 3 sizes and are really handy for anybody from residential to industrial.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


They are handy, I have all the sizes they make and yes they come in very handy at times. 

There are also phillips holding screwdrivers, I think the ones i have are mad eby General Tools.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

http://www.jensentools.com/jensen-tools-double-ended-insulated-screw-holding-screwdriver/g/366


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Turn a ring terminal into a fork terminal with a pair of *****.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cow said:


> I'm right there with you Flying, I can't count how many times I've had to take some wires loose in some cramped peckerhead. I back the screw out a little and pull on the wire?!?! What the ****?!?! Why won't it pull out? Oh, it's not a fork it's a damn ring terminal!!!
> 
> Alright, I think I feel better now!:jester:


I never slow down to use the original hardware ( fasteners) if it's troublesome.

Allen head fasteners -- in all the popular threadings -- are in my kit.

They cost peanuts compared to my tab.

The beauty of Allen head fasteners must be obvious.

Starting a fastener in tight quarters goes A LOT faster if the the first threads are sanded off// lathed off.

You'll see this as common with grounding screws -- the green puppies.

BTW, I toss straight blade screws into the garbage... the second they slow me down.

You can't make life work when you're killing ten-minutes to mess with (save) a $ 0.20 screw.

BTW, my Allens are knurled such that you can start them with your fingers.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

telsa said:


> I never slow down to use the original hardware ( fasteners) if it's troublesome.
> 
> Allen head fasteners -- in all the popular threadings -- are in my kit.
> 
> ...


What does this have to do with a thread about ring terminals?

I simply don't care for rings on ground screws in peckerheads mostly. I never said I had a problem with the 5/16 head ground screw I know I will find in most small baldor motors. I do not feel I need to replace it with an allen either.

If you like allens, go for it. I keep factory hardware installed more often than not, because there is no reason to waste time replacing it.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Turn a ring terminal into a fork terminal with a pair of *****.


Done that more than a few times myself.......lol.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

micromind said:


> Done that more than a few times myself.......lol.


That is atrocious you guys! No REAL lectrician would ever do something like that!:no:


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

When you are working 50 miles from nowhere and you are trying to add something to a treminal strip and you are not sure if the screws will go back into the terminal strip if they are removed. 
You better believe I will open up a ring terminal.Done it more than once.

LC


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> When you are working 50 miles from nowhere and you are trying to add something to a treminal strip and you are not sure if the screws will go back into the terminal strip if they are removed.
> You better believe I will open up a ring terminal.Done it more than once.
> 
> LC


I fully understand what it is like working way far from your home base and even far from your truck (on an island where your van is back on a dock a good ride away). 

Why wouldn't the screws go back in?

I've had plenty that are rough to go back in but none that wouldn't go back at all.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Why wouldn't the screws go back in?


I think some of them they mangle the threads on the tip of the screw or something so they can't be backed out all the way; if you force them they might mangle the threads of the hole and now you have a whole other problem.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cow said:


> What does this have to do with a thread about ring terminals?
> I simply don't care for rings on ground screws in peckerheads mostly. I never said I had a problem with the 5/16 head ground screw I know I will find in most small baldor motors. I do not feel I need to replace it with an allen either.


I hate 5/16th heads! Only because I loose my 5/16th nut driver more than any other in the set.
5/16 is quite the popular one it seems.



micromind said:


> Done that more than a few times myself.......lol.


I actually saw that for the first time during my apprenticeship. Many. many years ago.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> I hate 5/16th heads! Only because I loose my 5/16th nut driver more than any other in the set.
> 5/16 is quite the popular one it seems.
> 
> 
> ...


We hardly use nut drivers any more. I think all of us carry a small 12v impact or drill driver. A guy should have an assortment of bits in his bad. A sq. drive, a philips, and some of those color coded magnetic racky bits that go from 1/4 to 1/2.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> I think some of them they mangle the threads on the tip of the screw or something so they can't be backed out all the way; if you force them they might mangle the threads of the hole and now you have a whole other problem.


Ring terminals don't mate with captive screws, that's for sure.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cow said:


> What does this have to do with a thread about ring terminals?
> 
> I simply don't care for rings on ground screws in peckerheads mostly. I never said I had a problem with the 5/16 head ground screw I know I will find in most small baldor motors. I do not feel I need to replace it with an allen either.
> *
> If you like allens, go for it. I keep factory hardware installed more often than not, because there is no reason to waste time replacing it*.


When I replace factory fasteners - - it's to save time. 

I bring spares// replacements as a habit. Many's the time that a hack has butchered the originals long before I showed up. ( Typically, button-head straight slot screws )

I come loaded for bear... with a kit I've created that holds a slew of those nickel and dime items that, when missing, can hold up work.

Posters, up thread, have complained about getting screws started again -- back in their old holes... a process necessary because they're installing a ring termination.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> I think some of them they mangle the threads on the tip of the screw or something so they can't be backed out all the way; if you force them they might mangle the threads of the hole and now you have a whole other problem.


Most device screws are the same way and with a little patience you can get them back in.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I hate 5/16th heads! Only because I loose my 5/16th nut driver more than any other in the set.
> 5/16 is quite the popular one it seems.
> 
> 
> ...


I carry a long magnetic 1/4" and 5/16" nut driver just for things like that.

Remember that a 10-in-1 or an 11-in-1 also have 1/4" and 5/16" capability.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Ring terminals don't mate with captive screws, that's for sure.


You need to buy different ring terminals!


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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You need to buy different ring terminals!


Yeah, the kind that are open on the end and with straight sides. 

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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

splatz said:


> http://www.jensentools.com/jensen-tools-double-ended-insulated-screw-holding-screwdriver/g/366


I must have wasted 20 minutes on one stupid screw two weeks ago with this tool. The screw had a tapered slot and it kept popping off...stainless to boot so couldn't magnetize the screwdriver.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Flyingsod said:


> Yeah, the kind that are open on the end and with straight sides.
> 
> Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk


Forks are nice but I've used all types depending on my mood and the use at hand.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cuba_pete said:


> I must have wasted 20 minutes on one stupid screw two weeks ago with this tool. The screw had a tapered slot and it kept popping off...stainless to boot so couldn't magnetize the screwdriver.


Try using a dab of duct seal next time.:thumbsup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cow said:


> We hardly use nut drivers any more. I think all of us carry a small 12v impact or drill driver. A guy should have an assortment of bits in his bad. A sq. drive, a philips, and some of those color coded magnetic racky bits that go from 1/4 to 1/2.


I come from an era of few battery tools. Battery tools were around, but not like they are today.
But as an example. If I had a big warehouse that I was replacing ballasts in, I would only carry the nut driver that fit the ballast fastener.

I can not even imagine carrying a battery powered tool around with me all the time.
I'm the guy on the job that has everything needed in my back pocket.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

John Valdes said:


> I come from an era of few battery tools. Battery tools were around, but not like they are today.
> But as an example. If I had a big warehouse that I was replacing ballasts in, I would only carry the nut driver that fit the ballast fastener.
> 
> I can not even imagine carrying a battery powered tool around with me all the time.
> I'm the guy on the job that has everything needed in my back pocket.



I am with you. I would put a guy good with hand tools up against a dummy with an impact any day.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> I come from an era of few battery tools. Battery tools were around, but not like they are today.
> But as an example. If I had a big warehouse that I was replacing ballasts in, I would only carry the nut driver that fit the ballast fastener.
> 
> I can not even imagine carrying a battery powered tool around with me all the time.
> I'm the guy on the job that has everything needed in my back pocket.





Jhellwig said:


> I am with you. I would put a guy good with hand tools up against a dummy with an impact any day.


In my opinion, if you're in this gig for the long haul, it doesn't make sense to do any more twisting turning motions with your hand than you have too. I'm not looking to increase the chances any of us get carpel tunnel.

For example, right now two of our guys are making up lighting boxes with 5 splices in each of the 170 boxes that are in each of the three dairy barns we're wiring. You better believe I handed them a wirenut driver for their cordless tools. There is no way I would want anyone to hand twist that many wire nuts.

If you're old school and think that's the wimpy way out, more power to you. But I do know the guys aren't fatigued at the end of the day and complaining about sore hands and fingers.

Hand tools have their place of course, we use the crap out of them, but most everyone in our shop has a tool pouch or tote with a 12v driver of some sort and bits to go with it. The odds are they are going to reach for that drill and bit before they grab a hand tool and I'm fine with it.

I want them to use whatever is fastest for what they're doing generally. 8/10 times it's probably the battery tool.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I come from an era of few battery tools. Battery tools were around, but not like they are today.
> But as an example. If I had a big warehouse that I was replacing ballasts in, I would only carry the nut driver that fit the ballast fastener.
> 
> I can not even imagine carrying a battery powered tool around with me all the time.
> *I'm the guy on the job that has everything needed in my back pocket.*


That comes with older and wiser (with back, knee, and hip issues too).

I have a ton of battery tools and even with the smaller M12 impacts there are times I'd rather just use a hand driver and spare carrying that extra item around. The pocket-apron tool system has plenty of advantages for the body.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jhellwig said:


> I am with you. I would put a guy good with hand tools up against a dummy with an impact any day.


Yeah man, no stripped threads, no cracked cover plates, no screw heads ripped apart, there are advantages.


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## Flyingsod (Jul 11, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That comes with older and wiser (with back, knee, and hip issues too).
> 
> I have a ton of battery tools and even with the smaller M12 impacts there are times I'd rather just use a hand driver and spare carrying that extra item around. The pocket-apron tool system has plenty of advantages for the body.


I disagree slightly. I think being able to work with only a few tools comes from forgetfulness and losing lots of tools. ;-)

Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Flyingsod said:


> I disagree slightly. I think being able to work with only a few tools comes from forgetfulness and losing lots of tools. ;-)
> 
> Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk


Now you're a comedian? LOL!

I have plenty of tools but carrying that Veto around gets real old real quick.

Nowadays I do very few jobs but I have been using a small pouch loaded for the task at hand and leaving the Veto bag in the Jeep.

My days playing pack mule are long gone!:thumbsup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cow said:


> In my opinion, if you're in this gig for the long haul, it doesn't make sense to do any more twisting turning motions with your hand than you have too. I'm not looking to increase the chances any of us get carpel tunnel.
> 
> For example, right now two of our guys are making up lighting boxes with 5 splices in each of the 170 boxes that are in each of the three dairy barns we're wiring. You better believe I handed them a wirenut driver for their cordless tools. There is no way I would want anyone to hand twist that many wire nuts.
> 
> ...


I don't think its wimpy at all. I'm certain had I come up in this trade with all these battery tools, I would most likely use them as you guys are doing.
I am all in for making my job easier.
My issue is carrying around a drill size tool all day. But If I had all those fixtures like you do, I would use a driver with nut driver tip too!

I look at it kinda like back stabbed recepts. If I have 300 hundred to trim out, they get back stabbed. If I have just a few they get done right......:laughing:

BTW. I have had carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists! 



MechanicalDVR said:


> Nowadays I do very few jobs but I have been using a small pouch loaded for the task at hand and leaving the Veto bag in the Jeep.
> My days playing pack mule are long gone!:thumbsup:


Yep. I learned way back we are not judged by how many tools we can cram into a pouch, but are indeed judged by how much we could get done with least amount of effort. Tool pouches take effort. 

I remember when I first moved here. I was hired by a contractor right away on my resume and showed up to work with a 5 gallon bucket with a few tools I knew I would need.
No one said anything, but a day or so later, the main office sent out a memo about looking professional on the job and gave everyone a tool list. It had a pouch on the list and a set of manual KO's.

I knew it was just for me and while they were at it, they got everyone but me to buy the KO set.
I quit a few days later when I accidentally divulged my salary to a guy I was working with.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Yep. I learned way back we are not judged by how many tools we can cram into a pouch, but are indeed judged by how much we could get done with least amount of effort. Tool pouches take effort.
> 
> I remember when I first moved here. I was hired by a contractor right away on my resume and showed up to work with a 5 gallon bucket with a few tools I knew I would need.
> No one said anything, but a day or so later, the main office sent out a memo about looking professional on the job and gave everyone a tool list. It had a pouch on the list and a set of manual KO's.
> ...



I have always had all the tools I'd need in the truck but learned on the first job that required everyone to wear a pouch that there is no need to carry everything on the tool list. This is especially true on installs. 

I bring just what I need out to the job and leave the rest locked up.

Linemans, strippers, and a 10-in1 go a long way.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Cow said:


> In my opinion, if you're in this gig for the long haul, it doesn't make sense to do any more twisting turning motions with your hand than you have too. I'm not looking to increase the chances any of us get carpel tunnel.
> 
> For example, right now two of our guys are making up lighting boxes with 5 splices in each of the 170 boxes that are in each of the three dairy barns we're wiring. You better believe I handed them a wirenut driver for their cordless tools. There is no way I would want anyone to hand twist that many wire nuts.
> 
> ...


I am not saying you have to do things the hard way but lots of guys go overkill on the power tools for every little thing.

Why are you still wasting time with wirenuts? Get wagos.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have always had all the tools I'd need in the truck but learned on the first job that required everyone to wear a pouch that there is no need to carry everything on the tool list. This is especially true on installs.
> 
> I bring just what I need out to the job and leave the rest locked up.
> 
> Linemans, strippers, and a 10-in1 go a long way.


I liked slab work when I was young. It paid more than scale as well.
All I needed was a pair of linesman's modified to be iron workers pliers and a good screwdriver.
The benders were always up there as were my pliers and screw driver.
I went this way until both 42 story towers were up.
Never touched any other tools unless it was raining and some of us would move inside to work.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I liked slab work when I was young. It paid more than scale as well.
> All I needed was a pair of linesman's modified to be iron workers pliers and a good screwdriver.
> The benders were always up there as were my pliers and screw driver.
> *I went this way until both 42 story towers were up.*
> Never touched any other tools unless it was raining and some of us would move inside to work.


How long was that job?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> How long was that job?


I can't remember exactly, but I was there on that job for a year. 1980.
When I first got there, they had several stories up already. 
There was still lots of inside work when I left for a mall start up.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I can't remember exactly, but I was there on that job for a year. 1980.
> When I first got there, they had several stories up already.
> There was still lots of inside work when I left for a mall start up.


Yeah it sounded like a long running one.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jhellwig said:


> I am with you. I would put a guy *good* with hand tools up against a *dummy* with an impact any day.


This is a silly thing to say. Why not make a fair comparison? Put a guy good with hand tools up against a guy good with an impact?

You will not find a single striped screw (threads or head), cracked cover plate, or any other problem with any screw I used my M12 impact gun on.

Using a screwdriver is wasting time and damaging your wrist.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This is a silly thing to say. Why not make a fair comparison? Put a guy good with hand tools up against a guy good with an impact?
> 
> You will not find a single striped screw (threads or head), cracked cover plate, or any other problem with any screw I used my M12 impact gun on.
> 
> Using a screwdriver is wasting time and damaging your wrist.


I agree with a good part of what you said but an impact and a cover screw just sound like a disaster waiting to occur.

That is along the lines of sledge hammer and thumbtack!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I agree with a good part of what you said but an impact and a cover screw just sound like a disaster waiting to occur.
> 
> That is along the lines of sledge hammer and thumbtack!


You're right, it _could_ be a disaster. But is hasn't been. And that disaster is only a problem because I am lazy and having to go out and get another cover plate is a pain in the butt.

But the truth is that I never broke one. I'm not trying to brag, just saying that it's easy to feather the trigger of an impact gun. 

Most cover plates I will put on by hand, especially GFCI/decora with the short screws. But 3 and 4 gang plates is just agonizing to sit there with a screwdriver when it could be zipped up in seconds with the impact.

Here is part of a post I made 7 years ago about the use of the new smaller impacts:



> I use the Makita 10.8V impact driver to drive 3" long screws thru 2X4's (far side support) then I go and install devices with it. It works very well for trim, I've used it for quite a while and I haven't stripped a 6-32 in a plastic box yet. You get the feel for it very quickly, it's very easy to control.
> 
> You can call me a hack, but I also use it for device screws. I did some playing around at the beginning, tightening down the screws and then checking them with a screwdriver. I found that 2 "impacts" tightens the screw to where I would normally tighten it with a screwdriver. I've trimmed out quite a bit using the "2 impacts" method since then and every once in a while I'll check a screw with a screwdriver and it will be just as tight as I want it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> You're right, it _could_ be a disaster. But is hasn't been. And that disaster is only a problem because I am lazy and having to go out and get another cover plate is a pain in the butt.
> 
> But the truth is that I never broke one. I'm not trying to brag, just saying that it's easy to feather the trigger of an impact gun.
> 
> ...


I can honestly say I've never used an impact to trim out but I have used the small Milwaukee 4v for a few years until the batteries crapped out then I made the switch to the DeWalt 7.2v screwdriver.

I still use the DeWalt for that type work.

Milk. 4v:










DeWalt 7.2v:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I use the M12 impact because it's always right there next to me in my service tray. It does everything. The tools you posted might work well, but they would be a second tool I would need to bring.

Plus, I don't do the typical trimming out in which you do it all day. For example, I go from drilling up thru the floor and bottom plate with the impact gun and daredevil spade bit, to running up and pulling wire thru, then to installing the box, device, and cover plate.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I use the M12 impact because it's always right there next to me in my service tray. It does everything. The tools you posted might work well, but they would be a second tool I would need to bring.
> 
> Plus, I don't do the typical trimming out in which you do it all day. For example, I go from drilling up thru the floor and bottom plate with the impact gun and daredevil spade bit, to running up and pulling wire thru, then to installing the box, device, and cover plate.


I did carry that little Milwaukee in my small pouch as a second driver device so it was always there but for you it would be a second tool.


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## tommydh (Feb 7, 2014)

if you really dont want to use a ring just do the old ground lug instead. I was always taught to use a ring on grounds if stranded #8-14 or hy-press lug 6 and larger with lock washers or star washers or a lug was ok ik sufficient room. Forks should only be used on terminals strips or other lthings like receptacles if stranded pulled.


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## tommydh (Feb 7, 2014)

And as far as holding screwdrivers, I have the old split version the newer claw type and 99% of time I use my magnetized phillips or flat and a lil wrap of tape. If your good you even get the tape to stick on tool and not ave to retrieve from equipment.


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