# So many things wrong here.....



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

mxslick said:


> This is typical of the electrical panels at the Renaissance Fest site I work at every year...this mess is located only about 20 "electrical" feet from the padmount transformer. See how many violations you can see from these pics...:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Throw a gernade at it and rebuild???????lol,lol..


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

ce2two said:


> Throw a gernade at it and rebuild???????lol,lol..


I'm thinking more along the lines of a bucket of metal shavings or salt water. :thumbsup::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Can't tell for sure, but it looks like #2 on a 200a main breaker. If the main is 200a, everything upstream is undersized.

Plus, maybe 2-3 different brand breakers in the panel.

Not sure if this would be considered a wet location, but if it is the GFCIs have the wrong covers.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Can't tell for sure, but it looks like #2 on a 200a main breaker. If the main is 200a, everything upstream is undersized.
> 
> _Good, but what else is wrong with the wiring to the main?
> _
> ...



So far so good..keep looking. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mxslick said:


> So far so good..keep looking. :thumbup:


Outside of the fact that the mains are taped brown-orange-yellow? Is that technically a violation?

If the GFCI's are supposed to be wet-loc. covered, how about the open panel? Sure doesn't look like a 3R.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Double and, looks like quadruple lugging.:laughing:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

#16 apears to have 2 wires in it..if listed for 2 lines are the nuetrals separated on nue-bus?


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

What's up with that piece of MC?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Is that mc coming out of the bottom of the meter can on left?..it looks alot like the mc in the panel that seems to go no where? enters panel on left and loops around till it disappears near ground lug...whata mess


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Outside of the fact that the mains are taped brown-orange-yellow? Is that technically a violation?
> 
> If the GFCI's are supposed to be wet-loc. covered, how about the open panel? Sure doesn't look like a 3R.


Panel isn't a 3R for sure. Now the real question is whether under a canopy outdoors is really a wet location? 

As for the ID on the conductors, 215.12 (C) comes to mind first...and I do not recall if the Code specifies SPECIFIC colors for different voltage levels (the only concrete thing is orange for hi leg), but obviously the colors used here do not meet industry practice for 120/208y.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mxslick said:


> Panel isn't a 3R for sure. Now the real question is whether under a canopy outdoors is really a wet location?


*Location, Damp.* Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. *Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies,* marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage warehouses.

*406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.* 
*(A) Damp Locations.* A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).

The handy-boxes would also be a violation.

*408.16 Switchboards in Damp or Wet Locations.*
Switchboards in damp or wet locations shall be installed in accordance with 312.2.

*312.2 Damp and Wet Locations*. In* damp* or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations.





mxslick said:


> ...... but obviously the colors used here do not meet industry practice for 120/208y.


That still does not constitute a violation.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Not only are the colors a design issue I doubt that and identification is even required at this location.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Double and, looks like quadruple lugging.:laughing:


Yep. And most of that is SO cables running without additional OCP to various locations. 



RGH said:


> #16 apears to have 2 wires in it..if listed for 2 lines are the nuetrals separated on nue-bus?


Yep, it and #18 have twisted paralleled #14 or #12 I have no idea where they go. Couldn't see the neutrals and there was no way in hell I was gonna touch anything to move it out of the way. 



sarness said:


> What's up with that piece of MC?





RGH said:


> Is that mc coming out of the bottom of the meter can on left?..it looks alot like the mc in the panel that seems to go no where? enters panel on left and loops around till it disappears near ground lug...whata mess


That's not MC it is the #6 ground with armor covering...but yeah that armor was supposed to be removed before it entered the panel. 

The electrical system there is just horrible, this is the least of the bad stuff. 

There is a set of switchgear in one building (old Zinsco no less) that feeds several other panels scattered throughout the site. The breaker that feeds the subpanel for the food kitchens (the other horrible panel I alluded to earlier) gets so hot that they have the deadfront off and a portable air conditioner blowing on it to try to keep it from tripping. It still trips at least a few times during the run of the event (6-8 weekends) and has been seen to emit smoke a few times. 

My landlord who owns two sword booths there and has frequently provided things to enhance the site has discussed having me help them straighten out the messes with the electrical systems, but after some thought we decided to leave it alone because the operator of the site would then blame us (me) for anything else that goes wrong. And frankly there are so many problems and violations that neither of us wants the liability. We are both counting on the inevitable electric meltdown to get the changes forced upon the operator.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

grounded delta requires high leg id...nothing for wye....wierd I always thought too....


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> *Location, Damp.* Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. *Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies,* marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage warehouses.
> 
> *406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.*
> *(A) Damp Locations.* A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).
> ...


So 3R it should be and it isn't....and since it's not and the wire to the main is color coded wrong, I would not be surprised if this was a salvaged panel. 

As for whether or not the color code is a violation, see my response to BBQ:



BBQ said:


> Not only are the colors a design issue *I doubt that and identification is even required at this location*.


In this case I can agree 100% with you as 120/208y is the ONLY service/utilization voltage on this site.

BUT....._*IF*_ there was another voltage available (like 480/277 for example) at this site then I think this panel would then be in violation _*IF*_ the 480/277 system used the same markings as this panel's.....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I sent shots of an open panel that any toddler could stick his hand in at an Ag fair to the state

they did nothing about it here

you tax $$$$, making us all safer, eh?

~CS~


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I sent shots of an open panel that any toddler could stick his hand in at an Ag fair to the state
> 
> they did nothing about it here
> 
> ...


This panel and most of the others are all in "backstage" areas not accessible to the public. This setup in particular is also behind an outbuilding and you have to know where it is or you'd walk right by it. 

Two years ago one of the SO cables fed from this mess shorted out and put on a nice fireworks show where it crossed a dirt road...it went off right after a horse stepped on it.  No injuries to the horse but it was kinda fun watching people panic as they kept throwing sand on the fire to try to put it out...it took about 8 minutes before someone thought to follow the cable to the panel to kill the power.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Did you say 208Y120 ?? well at the left meter at the disconnect switch If I did read the size correct there is no way it can be triphase disconnect switch espcally this is true with 600 volt class disconnect switch.( If this is a triphase verison then it may maxed by 60 amp fuse I doubt 100 will fit in there unless you got a triangle stacker type holder ) 

The other thing I did notced the pattern of breakers look like someone did spotted ornage colour tape and skip them. ( seems they never verify it to see what the correct voltage on all phases ) 

The SO cord on the right side of meter is wrong size I don't that is large engough to handle 100 amp load 

I have see few double / triple conductor on one lug or screw.

I did see there is no NM or cable clamp on top of the breaker box for SO cord.

It will be wise just tear it down and redo correct that will slove the major issue there.

I think there were a unqualifed personal was working on the breaker box due you can tell the way they ran the conductors.

Merci,
Marc


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

slick, why the hell do you keep following me around with a camera? If I wanted to post photos of my work, I would.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> slick, why the hell do you keep following me around with a camera? If I wanted to post photos of my work, I would.



:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


(The really scary part would be if this really was your work.)


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

mxslick said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> (The really scary part would be if this really was your work.)


I use 20 amp GFCIs.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

ce2two said:


> Throw a gernade at it and rebuild???????lol,lol..


Nah just get the 2nd term apprentice Katroller to estimate a new one to install for you! :jester::laughing:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

The_Modifier said:


> Nah just get the 2nd term apprentice Katroller to estimate a new one to install for you! :jester::laughing:


You know, I think he may have been the one who did this install.......


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

Looks liek a few mix-matched breakers in there, I can't tell but would assume this is qo, but looks like a few breakers in there dont quite fit correctly.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Svtlightning207 said:


> Looks liek a few mix-matched breakers in there, I can't tell but would assume this is qo, but looks like a few breakers in there dont quite fit correctly.


 

I don't see any QO's in there. I see some homeline's, and possibly seimens or murray's. Might even be a BR or two in there


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

My vision sucks. I assumed it was qo or homeline and they were mixed in because the breakers don't line up.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Here's another panel at the same site: 

See anything right here? 











Yes it was built directly over the concrete "Christie Box" :









This panel is fed by the breaker I talked about earlier in the thread. (See post #14)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jeez, what a cluster****


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> jeez, what a cluster****


Yep it is. 

The green cord on the left, into the grey plated GFCI, is the one that gives power to our booth. It has worked well for over ten years and the only problem we've had is when someone unplugs it or the occasional GFCI trip. I hate getting anywhere near this thing for any reason. 

And did I mention that it is located about 26" above ground, measured at the TOP of the panel? :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mxslick said:


> And did I mention that it is located about 26" above ground, measured at the TOP of the panel? :whistling2:


That's not a violation. Sorry DQ. :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Double and, looks like quadruple lugging.:laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> That's not a violation. Sorry DQ. :laughing:


Sez you punk. :laughing:

I'll find a Code Section to prove you wrong.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Sez you punk. :laughing:
> 
> I'll find a Code Section to prove you wrong.


You can try. :tt2:


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## Svtlightning207 (Apr 2, 2012)

I would want to kick someone in the nuts for that LB in the first picture.


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## Revix (Jun 7, 2012)

Everything is wrong with it. I like the earlier answer of throwing a grenade at it and blowing it all up.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Sez you punk. :laughing:
> 
> I'll find a Code Section to prove you wrong.


 Find it yet?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Find it yet?


Haven't given it a thought again till now and I'm going to bed so it'll have to wait. :laughing:

I am looking at exposure to physical damage possibly or maybe even being in the range of the flood plain. :laughing:


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