# Stumped



## besc (May 16, 2010)

Could be a good one or just me. Someone put in a house panel and replaced all outlets. They call me because they're getting shocked touching the shower head. The panel ground was an old dryer chord stripped back on both ends. All three on one end connected to ground bar inside panel. The other end of stripped back wires were twisted around a painted ground bar. Further investigation was water pipe was grounded but hot water heater not bonded. Gas pipe not grounded and meter not bonded. (Got zapped static discharge when I touched the pipe going into house.) So, bonded and grounded everything. Now the good part. Checked the outlets and the Ideal tester with the three lites showed hot and neutral reversed. Pulled outlets out and white on silver and black on gold screws. Hmm. All boxes are metal (house 1906) and old cloth insulation (two wires only). Here's the deal. I pull the outlets out and plug in my tester and it just shows no ground like it should. But when I touch the outlet to the ungrounded metal box, it shows hot and neutral reversed. I think the shower zapping was from the lousy ground and bonding issue but this was yesterday and haven't heard yet. But can't figure out this other problem. Help. Thanks. Mike.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

"Someone replaced the panel, and receps."? How long ago, and are they still in business? You got you a can of worms there son. First of all, once you disturb that old cloth/rubber stuff, you should re-pull it with new stuff, there is no "tape n hide" repair for that. That's probably where the "shower shocker" is originating. Is there any signs of "rework"? The conduit (rigid I presume) is the only grounding means, so a bad connection/break anywhere back to the panel is a concern, as is the rusted locknut, or paint not removed at the panel. I would pull a ground in everything, but, you can't with that existing old stuff, remember the liability issue. And depending on how "wealthy' they look, tell them they need a complete rewire. I've heard (not verified) that the "old cloth/rubber" stuff only had a 4 year life expectancy at the time of manufacture. I've been where you are, and I'm pretty sure it had something to do with grey hair.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Lack of trade oversight is going to leave us w/o one.....

~CS~


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Just reread the post, the part about the "panel ground" ,"twisted around a painted ground bar"? HOLY CRAP, DUDE. Wasn't that like a giant red flag? Like a clue of things to come? OMG totally.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I think your local ground is being energized by a faulted circuit. Perhaps a wire touching a water pipe. Plug in your tester showing hot-neutral reversed and turn off circuits one by one until the condition goes away. Then find the fault.


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

Hay Joebanana If you're going to slime and belittle me like that then I guess that is a GREEN LIGHT for sliming on this post. HOLY CRAP, DUDE. I told you I fixed those grounding problems or did you miss that part the second time. I just heard that the static discharge problem is gone but I haven't heard any ideas, other than re-wire the house, what could be causing the hot neutral reversal when outlet in box but ok when out of box. Do you talk to your customers this way. Let the flame war begin.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

besc said:


> Hay Joebanana If you're going to slime and belittle me like that then I guess that is a GREEN LIGHT for sliming on this post. HOLY CRAP, DUDE. I told you I fixed those grounding problems or did you miss that part the second time. I just heard that the static discharge problem is gone but I haven't heard any ideas, other than re-wire the house, what could be causing the hot neutral reversal when outlet in box but ok when out of box. Do you talk to your customers this way. Let the flame war begin.


My apologies, I didn't mean to come off as "belittling" or "slimey". I was slamming the previous guy's work, ie. dryer cord, painted bus, twisted on. The first thing you need is proper grounding at the panel.(Rod and cold water) before you try to troubleshoot anything. I've been in your position many times. When it's obvious the previous guy didn't have the slightest clue, there will be problems you'll be chasing for ever, unless you go through the entire install systematically. Especially with that old wire. And, yeah I'm extremely straight forward with my customers, often I have to tell them things they don't want or like to hear, but they trust me, and that's what counts. And when I leave I tell them, "I hope I never see you again". With a smile of course.
And again I'm sorry if I hurt you in any way.
(F-en crybaby)
I'M JUST KIDDING, geeze.


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

Oh golly gee. Quit it.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Troll. You're supposed to be an electrician, you figure it out.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's hard to diagnose a _hack_ Besc

One is always thinking of how the circuitry _should_ be , not the way some one_ thought up_......

~CS~


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

besc said:


> I pull the outlets out and plug in my tester and it just shows no ground like it should. But when I touch the outlet to the ungrounded metal box, it shows hot and neutral reversed.


The only thing I can think of is the neutral or hot is making contact with the box. Those testers (ideal plug ins) can show some strange things when something is on the 'ground' of them.

If it is doing it to EVERY outlet ... that's friggin weird !


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

While proper grounding and bonding may cause the issue to go away, the issue has not been fixed....just masked. 

The lack of proper grounding and bonding was not the cause of the issue....you need to find the real cause.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

I'm reluctant to make any suggestions as I'm not certain that I fully understood 
your description of the symptoms. None the less, I'll suggest sticking to the 
basics. Using a known ground, verify that other grounds are actually grounds
and also that neutrals and hots are what they're supposed to be. I recently 
worked in an old house where every neutral was actually hot and vice versa. 
Old houses have a way of turning the basics into a puzzle. 
Cheers,
P&L


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

besc said:


> Could be a good one or just me. Someone put in a house panel and replaced all outlets. They call me because they're getting shocked touching the shower head. The panel ground was an old dryer chord stripped back on both ends. All three on one end connected to ground bar inside panel. The other end of stripped back wires were twisted around a painted ground bar. Further investigation was water pipe was grounded but hot water heater not bonded. Gas pipe not grounded and meter not bonded. (Got zapped static discharge when I touched the pipe going into house.) So, bonded and grounded everything. Now the good part. Checked the outlets and the Ideal tester with the three lites showed hot and neutral reversed. Pulled outlets out and white on silver and black on gold screws. Hmm. All boxes are metal (house 1906) and old cloth insulation (two wires only). Here's the deal. I pull the outlets out and plug in my tester and it just shows no ground like it should. But when I touch the outlet to the ungrounded metal box, it shows hot and neutral reversed. I think the shower zapping was from the lousy ground and bonding issue but this was yesterday and haven't heard yet. But can't figure out this other problem. Help. Thanks. Mike.



While the receptacle is unattached to a ground, the 3 prong tester is unable to tell if the hot and neutral is reversed. It can only tell you that it is missing the ground. And the middle light should be on. 

Once you ground the receptacle you should have light 1 and 3 illuminating indicating that it is grounded, but has hot/neutral reversed. The ground may not be sufficient enough to see the dimly lit bulb. Somehow the tester is picking up enough of a ground for see a hot/neutral reversed (neutral nicked ?) . 

I would use a known ground/neutral as PlugsAndLights suggested to find your true hot and neutral . I would also check hot to metal box, perhaps something is grounding it a little. None the less, i recommend installing gfci breakers and labeling the outlets as being gfci protected.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

besc said:


> Could be a good one or just me. Someone put in a house panel and replaced all outlets. They call me because they're getting shocked touching the shower head. The panel ground was an old dryer chord stripped back on both ends. All three on one end connected to ground bar inside panel. The other end of stripped back wires were twisted around a painted ground bar. Further investigation was water pipe was grounded but hot water heater not bonded. Gas pipe not grounded and meter not bonded. (Got zapped static discharge when I touched the pipe going into house.) So, bonded and grounded everything. Now the good part. Checked the outlets and the Ideal tester with the three lites showed hot and neutral reversed. Pulled outlets out and white on silver and black on gold screws. Hmm. All boxes are metal (house 1906) and old cloth insulation (two wires only). Here's the deal. I pull the outlets out and plug in my tester and it just shows no ground like it should. But when I touch the outlet to the ungrounded metal box, it shows hot and neutral reversed. I think the shower zapping was from the lousy ground and bonding issue but this was yesterday and haven't heard yet. But can't figure out this other problem. Help. Thanks. Mike.


I love to talk to people interested in learning the trade but you, if you are really in an apprenticeship, need to listen to those on this forum who really know what is going on.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Here is how I would tackle this.

Turn off breakers one at a time until the voltage on the shower head goes away. If after turning off all of the breakers (except the main) the voltage is still there, then turn off the main. If the voltage is still there, lift the service neutral. 

If when turning off the branch breakers the the voltage goes away with one breaker off, then that circuit needs to be checked out thoroughly. 

If you turn off all of the branch breakers and the main and you still have power, on the shower head, then the problem is a bit more complicated. If you have the main off and lift the neutral, then my money is on a bad neutral on the PoCo side but chances are they will tell you it's a grounding problem (they don't admit to problems).

After you get some more diagnostic information, we can help you further. 

You didn't say how much voltage was on the shower head and what was your 2nd point of reference to read the voltage on the shower head?

Does the shower have lathe walls?

If you do a bunch of service grounding and the problem goes away, you most likely didn't fix the problem, just the symptom.

As far as your receptacles go, you need to bring a good H,N,G source via extension cord to the receptacle to check what you have in the receptacle. You also need some way of loading the receptacle to make sure you don't have ghost voltages. A 60W light bulb works if hooked in parallel with your meter. 

I believe you have multiple issues, and fixing one problem may not fix all the issues. 

Does this house have any old knob and tube wiring? 

If you don't have a ground to the receptacles (you said it was cloth rx w/out a ground) then that plug in tester is useless, put it away, use a tester with a small load.

You either need to change out the receptacles back to 2-prong ... or read the requirements of using grounded receptacles on non-grounded circuits (maybe someone will post the article?).

You can wind up fixing the symptoms w/out fixing the problem if you do not pay attention and understand why you are doing what you are doing.

Please come back soon and tell us the 2nd reference point when reading voltage on the shower head.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd encourage addressing that shower deal first.....:no:~CS~:no:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> I'd encourage addressing that shower deal first.....:no:~CS~:no:


Could you live with some local (shower area) bonding between metal components as a solution?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

No....methinks Don said it best in post #12 Lou.....~CS~


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

About a year ago i had the same issue. A plumber had cut out a section of the cast iron waste line and installed PVC, hence loosing the ground. An old cloth jacketed wire had rubbed up against a section of the exiting cast iron enough to achieve 115volts in the waste line (shower head to drain). I was able to locate the damaged wire, cut it out, junction and relocate it so this did not happen any more. I was lucky as it was in an unfinished area, but still hard to get to.


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## Nvsparky (May 2, 2012)

Put a volt meter on we're they are getting shocked if you read real volts then shut off one breaker at a Time off till it goes away I ran into this when a heating element broke in a hot water heater trace your hi impedence back feed to the cause once you find the circuit


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