# old rag wire AC cable in a remodel job



## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

Fellas got a question about nasty ass rag wire. 

I gotta house built in the 50's with Armor Cable with rag insulated conductors throughout. The "flipper" AKA homeowner of course just wants new devices throughout and wants nothing to do with my strong suggestion of "Just Rip that s*** out and let me wire this thing new and safe". The problem with this old junk is when you disturb it when replacing devices its so brittle is just breaks apart. 

When you guys encounter this junk in a remodel job what is your course of action. Im a little worried about liability but i want the work and god knows if its not me, someone else is gonna take the money

how about these ideas... 

1. have homeowner sign document releasing me of liability due to not wanting to rip all the walls out and rewire. (highly unlikely)

2. Install AFCI Breakers on all rag wire circuits. (expensive)

3. Walk away. (VERY expensive.)

4. just say screw it, and put new devices and walk away and pray. (Rollin' the dice...)

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY THOUGHTS...


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Tough call...I know what you mean. If I encounter one or two bad wires, Ill slide some thhn over it and reinstall...But, this is the whole house we are talking about...to me, I'd try to sell him on a rewire...arc faults will be nothing but trouble on that stuff.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I would tell him if I start and the insulation falls off he will be forced to rewire it. Some things are better left alone. But I have done several houses like that and had no problems. How is your luck?


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## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

If its in the 50's then its probably 2 wire. You will have to install new rec with 2 wire rec anyways. I would tell him that since he intends on resale that it will resale better if it is rewired to current code and explain all the updates and why it makes the house so much safer than if he simply changed devices. That way it makes the potential new buyer feel safer about buying a older house.:thumbsup: He is a flipper and wants to make $. This will make the house more sellable.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Charge plenty. Most flippers dont give a crap if you make money and will want you to do a lot more than they agree to. When it comes time to sell they will tell the buyer how good you are and the great job you did and how that now the old house is just as well wired as a new one and all the extra expense that he did just to insure the house is brought up to current code. Good Luck.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I would re-wire the house if I could, if he would not agree to that I would walk away. That stuff is scary when it gets old. I used to do service at a very old golf course that was wired in this stuff...let me tell you, everytime I worked in a panel it put me on edge because the insulation on that stuff will literally fall off when disturbed.


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## VersaJoe (Nov 19, 2009)

I would always suggest replace old with new.. However... we live in a messed up economy now.. people want inexpensive work but want it safe.. I do a lot of work for guys that flip houses.. sometimes there isn't enough margin on a flip to make it cost effective for them to justify rewiring.. however, if I do not feel I can do the job to my standards, I will walk... this does not happen often because we either come to terms... or I can safely salvage alot of the old stuff... when I encounted old "rag coated" AC cable the crumbles when I touch it.. the first this I will do is remove the box it's installed in...9 times ouf 10 there is enough slack in the wall that I can cut the old stuff back, and strip back 6 inches... you would not believe how "fresh" the wires can be...the beeswax coated wires are still soft and very flexible....I then add a new anti short, connector and and box if needed. I can honestly say I feel quite comfortable with the repair at that point...and if I can succesfully use this method, I see no need to press the issue of rewiring...this is especially true when I can go into a basement, find an old junction box overstuffed rag coated wires and separate the circuit into maybe what should be 3 circuits...therefore even more alleviating the aged wire of any future heating issues making the home safer.... I know some will attack me on this but to each his own... if you really think about it...your getting paid...its less expensive for the customer.. better than taping, heatshrink, or sliding THHN insulation over the bare wires....it's now safe.....and everyones happy.


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

thanks guys, I was able to get the GC to agree to rip the basement ceiling out. This gave me the ability to get alot of the rag wire out. Where it went through the floor to the first floor i put in a jbox. Better than nothing i guess. The kitchen is what i really wanted to rip out the most. Just seems to carry the most load on a consistent basis. this Junk is terrible. it falls apart if you look at it wrong!!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I replace old BX whenever and wherever possible. I consider it by far the worst and most dangerous wiring method out there, much worse than K&T or old cloth romex.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Anyone ever seen a box that isn't a box for BX? It has a small maybe 3" round plate with 2 screw in plates on the side that hold 2 BX's per side? No screw holes or knockouts and the fixtures just screwed to the lathe? Those are always real classic to run into. Everyone of them I have seen has 4 BX's attached to it and it's always mostly bare wires by the time I see it from the light fixture. I'll see if I can find a picture.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Anyone ever seen a box that isn't a box for BX? It has a small maybe 3" round plate with 2 screw in plates on the side that hold 2 BX's per side? No screw holes or knockouts and the fixtures just screwed to the lathe? Those are always real classic to run into. Everyone of them I have seen has 4 BX's attached to it and it's always mostly bare wires by the time I see it from the light fixture. I'll see if I can find a picture.



I see them all the time since the majority of housing stock in my area is old. And yes, it's always as you said - the insulation is gone from 70+ years of cooking from a 100 watt bulb.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I see them all the time since the majority of housing stock in my area is old. And yes, it's always as you said - the insulation is gone from 70+ years of cooking from a 100 watt bulb.


Well I'm glad you know what I'm talking about, any ideas as to what one of those is called?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Some of those boxes had gas running to them at one time...


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I see gas lines all of the time above light fixtures. If I can't verify that it's cut somewhere else I will offset my box and let the line sit in the fixture canopy if the light is big enough. The boxes I'm talking about however were installed long after the gas lines I believe probably in the 30's or 40's.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Power21 said:


> thanks guys, I was able to get the GC to agree to rip the basement ceiling out. This gave me the ability to get alot of the rag wire out. Where it went through the floor to the first floor i put in a jbox. Better than nothing i guess. The kitchen is what i really wanted to rip out the most. Just seems to carry the most load on a consistent basis. this Junk is terrible. it falls apart if you look at it wrong!!
> View attachment 3327



:laughing: is that a IG. Rec


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I know what ones you are talking about...it's a small 3'' biscuit box with the bx clamps, stuffed full of brittle bx or cloth wire...


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I know what ones you are talking about...it's a small 3'' biscuit box with the bx clamps, stuffed full of brittle bx or cloth wire...


Similar to that but not quite, it's not even really a box as far as I can tell just a clamp to maintain the grounding. Imagine a 3" box but with no mounting screws and take a cut out portion of each side to clamp the bx's with. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. I'll take a picture next time I see one.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> Similar to that but not quite, it's not even really a box as far as I can tell just a clamp to maintain the grounding. Imagine a 3" box but with no mounting screws and take a cut out portion of each side to clamp the bx's with. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. I'll take a picture next time I see one.


I'm sure I've seen it...post a pic when you take it.


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## crwilliams (Oct 26, 2012)

MF Dagger said:


> I see gas lines all of the time above light fixtures. If I can't verify that it's cut somewhere else I will offset my box and let the line sit in the fixture canopy if the light is big enough. The boxes I'm talking about however were installed long after the gas lines I believe probably in the 30's or 40's.


Wasn’t the original threaded conduit installed so that when this new-fangled electric thing ran its course then conversion back to gas would be easy?


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

user4818 said:


> I replace old BX whenever and wherever possible. I consider it by far the worst and most dangerous wiring method out there, much worse than K&T or old cloth romex.


I have seen old BX literally glowing in the attic


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

cdslotz said:


> I have seen old BX literally glowing in the attic


From age? 



user4818 said:


> I replace old BX whenever and wherever possible. I consider it by far the worst and most dangerous wiring method out there, much worse than K&T or old cloth romex.


Care to explain? I'm here to learn.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> From age?
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain? I'm here to learn.


User 4818 is PeterD. Unfortunately he was excessively naughty and banned.
What they are referring to is the steel armor is many times longer than the conductors and higher impedance. Under a hard fault, such as when the BX is severely over fused, the armor tries in vain to carry the fault current but ends up dangerously hot perhaps never able to open the fuse and creating the “toaster coil”.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> User 4818 is PeterD. Unfortunately he was excessively naughty and banned.
> What they are referring to is the steel armor is many times longer than the conductors and higher impedance. Under a hard fault, such as when the BX is severely over fused, the armor tries in vain to carry the fault current but ends up dangerously hot perhaps never able to open the fuse and creating the “toaster coil”.


I’ve never seen it happen from a fault. I’ve seen it happen from carrying neutral current


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## Grounded-B (Jan 5, 2011)

MF Dagger said:


> Similar to that but not quite, it's not even really a box as far as I can tell just a clamp to maintain the grounding. Imagine a 3" box but with no mounting screws and take a cut out portion of each side to clamp the bx's with. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. I'll take a picture next time I see one.


Here's a picture -


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## tedanderson (Jan 31, 2021)

As much as this would hurt me to walk away, I'd have to pass on it after I show and tell him what he's dealing with. I'd also tell him that the guy who becomes my successor on this project is probably going to say certain things to assert that just replacing the devices is acceptable. 

There's a lot of things that I do against my conscience and preferences just so that I can get that money and move on. But ignoring the potential of a dangerous life-threatening situation is not one of them.


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