# replacing narrow loadcenters



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Siemens and Murray make a 4/8 circuit panel that is narrower than the old Federal Pacific panel is. If you can get by with eight circuits, just use that. It’s under $20.

If I need to fit a larger panel in and have to cut the stud, I use an oscillating tool to cut the plaster, then my Hackzall to cut most of the meat out of the stud away. Then clean up the notch in the stud with the oscillating tool.


----------



## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

yea, bigger panels, and I should have added I'd like to accomplish this without damaging the wall on the other side of the panel. I've never tried one of those oscillating tools. To look at them they just don't look like they would work.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebeadg said:


> yea, bigger panels, and I should have added I'd like to accomplish this without damaging the wall on the other side of the panel. I've never tried one of those oscillating tools. To look at them they just don't look like they would work.


Oscillating tools work awesome on plaster and wood lath. They will also cut through a stud, but they are slow through thick wood. That’s why I use the hacksaw to take most of the meat out of the stud, then just go back with the oscillating tool to trim it square.

I always do this without cutting through the other side of the wall. Most of the time I change these panels out without any damage to the same side of the wall either.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh, and how wide is this opening that you are dealing with? Square D makes small 8/16 circuit panels that usually fit into the Federal Pacific width.


----------



## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

I think the fpe is 13", now often they just have the studs 16" on center with a short piece of 2x4 nailed to it, I just pry those of and count my blessings. then ur not hackwork, hackwork, ur good work! I usually get them in with no damage either side of the wall, but sometimes just don't happen that way


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The panel I pictured above is a little over 12 inches I believe. It fit perfectly in that space between the two studs where a Federal Pacific panel was.


----------



## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

plaster and lath, I haven't seen that stuff in over 30 yrs, I'd probably head out the door know if I came across it, nasty dirty work


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Or get a retrofit interior from Eaton. They are a little pricey but can save a lot of labor. 

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Forge Boyz said:


> Or get a retrofit interior from Eaton. They are a little pricey but can save a lot of labor.


Does it come with a new cover?

I'd be willing to look into that. There is really no need to change out the backpanel. If anything, it is just messing with the wires and causing more possible issues (brittle insulation inside of cloth covered BX, for example).


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Does it come with a new cover?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be willing to look into that. There is really no need to change out the backpanel. If anything, it is just messing with the wires and causing more possible issues (brittle insulation inside of cloth covered BX, for example).


Yes it does. I priced one that gave 10 spaces in a single column. I think it was about $200 for the interior and maybe $50 for the cover. What I priced it for would save probably 2 hrs replacing the old can.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Forge Boyz said:


> Yes it does. I priced one that gave 10 spaces in a single column. I think it was about $200 for the interior and maybe $50 for the cover. What I priced it for would save probably 2 hrs replacing the old can.


Gotcha.

That is more than I was expecting.

Sure, you saved 1-2 hours of your time, but you gave what you would have made in that time to the manufacturer. 

I'm all for making things easier, but at some point we pass too much of the profit off to the material makers.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebeadg said:


> plaster and lath, I haven't seen that stuff in over 30 yrs, I'd probably head out the door know if I came across it, nasty dirty work


I see it often, I wish I could turn the jobs down with it, but I'd lose 35% of my work. 

Anyway, next time you have one of these panels to replace, post the specs here (circuits and width) and I bet we can find you a panel that will fit without cutting the stud.


----------



## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

I don't think so its a 150A MB with 23 poles I'll look into the siemens retro things, but yea, expensive


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebeadg said:


> I don't think so its a 150A MB with 23 poles I'll look into the siemens retro things, but yea, expensive


How wide?

Is that the 13" wide one you are talking about?? 150A and over 20 positions??


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Didn’t Siemens at one time at least make a remodelers panel that was 12” wide? I think I remember seeing them in the catalog.


----------



## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

23 poles in use


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> Didn’t Siemens at one time at least make a remodelers panel that was 12” wide? I think I remember seeing them in the catalog.


This is 12-3/8" https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...novation-Value-Pack-E1020MB1100FCGP/100125954


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> This is 12-3/8" https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...novation-Value-Pack-E1020MB1100FCGP/100125954


Yeah maybe that's what I remember, I have a Siemens catalog at work, I'll look while the truck warms up in the AM.:wink:


----------



## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

The last Zinsco service change I quoted I tried to use one of those Eaton retrofit panels.


But to get the breaker spaces I needed, put me into the Eaton retrofit kits that weren't UL listed. Just something to be aware of.


We ended up using a Siemens and the guys just used a multitool to chop a stud out of the way. Not much you can do when it's shoved into the corner of a room with a stud right against it on the other side....


----------



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Siemens only makes the renovation enclosures in a 4/8 circuit size.

Siemens does make a retrofit kit though.

I've never used either of these, but here's the catalog pages for reference.









Sent from my Samsung using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Siemens only makes the renovation enclosures in a 4/8 circuit size.


What do you mean?


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think the renovation panels are the flush mounts that are 12.3" wide, they are made to avoid the notching etc. if the framing is narrower. Look on page 1-19 here 

https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdis...alog/Documents/2017/SF-17-Sect-01-ALL-web.pdf 

There's a 100A 12-24 and a 125A 8-16. 

The Renovation Interiors are on page 1-21, they have 100A 8-16's and 125A 12-24's.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That's cool, didn't realize Siemens had a retrofit interior. I like the Cutler Hammer ones, but I think they are best suited to when you have time to order and its a multifamily job.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I linked to the Siemens renovation panel earlier: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...novation-Value-Pack-E1020MB1100FCGP/100125954

It's a 10-20 panel.


----------



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

splatz said:


> There's a 100A 12-24 and a 125A 8-16.





HackWork said:


> What do you mean?


I just realized I was looking at the height column not the width column. That screenshot I posted has what OP is looking for (which is the same document you linked splatz).


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

joebeadg said:


> I've never tried one of those oscillating tools. To look at them they just don't look like they would work.


My track record:

dremel corded--horrible
bosch cordless 12v-fair
M-12- better but still just fair
Fein (corded)--very good


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> My track record:
> 
> dremel corded--horrible
> bosch cordless 12v-fair
> ...


I started with the Rockwell a long time back, it worked awesome for years. I sold it when I bought the Milwaukee M18. It works just as well, but no cord.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I put the Fein in the garage corded tool pile after I got the M-18 cordless oscillating tool. Another for it works just as well.


----------



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

I got the M12 one. It's great for what I need it for (fixing box cutouts in cabinets, cutting drywall, cutting lath & plaster are my main uses).

Sent from my Samsung using Tapatalk


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The oscillating tools are another where the cordless is fine for the easy stuff but I want the corded for the harder jobs. The cordless work fine for cutting plaster, lath, drywall, etc. The corded work much better for cutting nails (removing windows from masonry construction) or taking substantial cuts out of wood like a power chisel.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> The oscillating tools are another where the cordless is fine for the easy stuff but I want the corded for the harder jobs. The cordless work fine for cutting plaster, lath, drywall, etc. The corded work much better for cutting nails (removing windows from masonry construction) or taking substantial cuts out of wood like a power chisel.


I can't speak for other brands, but my M18 has as much if not more balls than the Rockwell I had and the Harbor Freight one I have used.

We are at a point in which battery tools are no longer handicapped, and often are more powerful than our corded tools. An example would be the M18 rotary hammer compared to my Hilti corded TE-60.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I can't speak for other brands, but my M18 has as much if not more balls than the Rockwell I had and the Harbor Freight one I have used.
> 
> We are at a point in which battery tools are no longer handicapped, and often are more powerful than our corded tools. An example would be the M18 rotary hammer compared to my Hilti corded TE-60.


We have discussed this before and although the M18 tools are great I think they're still short of the power and speed under load that I get with corded tools. Example being the Bosch Bulldog SDS versus M18 SDS. I like the M18 and I am not sorry I bought it but if I had to have one or the other, it's the Bulldog for me.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> We have discussed this before and although the M18 tools are great I think they're still short of the power and speed under load that I get with corded tools. Example being the Bosch Bulldog SDS versus M18 SDS. I like the M18 and I am not sorry I bought it but if I had to have one or the other, it's the Bulldog for me.


You’re comparing 2 specific tools, but that doesn’t speak for the entire group of battery or non-battery. 

As I mentioned, my M 18 oscillating tool is every bit as strong as my corded. And the largest M 18 rotary hammer is more powerful than my corded. I’ve also spoken to others with real world experience to confirm that. 

In your prior post you said that all cordless are less than corded. But I don’t think it’s fair to generalize like that any longer like it was 10 years ago. Not unless you have actual experience with all of them.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> In your prior post you said that all cordless are less than corded. But I don’t think it’s fair to generalize like that any longer like it was 10 years ago. Not unless you have actual experience with all of them.


No I was speaking in general, for example a good corded SDS like the Bulldog is more powerful than a good cordless SDS like the M18, Dewalt "20V" and Bosch 18V. 

I have no trouble believing a cordless tool running on a car battery could be more powerful, a car battery can deliver 500 amps at what maybe 10V that would be 5000 watts, that's going to beat a 120V tool (briefly ... then the battery is going to die.)


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> No I was speaking in general, for example a good corded SDS like the Bulldog is more powerful than a good cordless SDS like the M18, Dewalt "20V" and Bosch 18V.


 That is incorrect since in many instances you can find battery tools that are more powerful than corded. The same way as my M18 oscillating tool is more powerful than the corded one I used for years. You can also find a cordless SDS rotary hammer that’s more powerful than the bulldog that you spoke of.


> I have no trouble believing a cordless tool running on a car battery could be more powerful, a car battery can deliver 500 amps at what maybe 10V that would be 5000 watts, that's going to beat a 120V tool (briefly ... then the battery is going to die.)


I’m not talking about car batteries, I’m talking about normal 18V tool batteries.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That is incorrect since in many instances you can find battery tools that are more powerful than corded. The same way as my M18 oscillating tool is more powerful than the corded one I used for years. You can also find a cordless SDS rotary hammer that’s more powerful than the bulldog that you spoke of.
> 
> I’m not talking about car batteries, I’m talking about normal 18V tool batteries.


I am going to want to speak to my lawyer.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I am going to want to speak to my lawyer.


No need. Post your Bulldog. If I remember correctly, you got one of the lower models. I guarantee you that there are battery tools out there more powerful. The M18 that you are comparing it to might not be, but there are others.

Now if you were to add a qualifier, such as price or weight, then you would be correct that corded tools (of the same price or weight) are more powerful. But in general, you can't say that because we all know that there are plenty of super powerful battery tools out there that beat the corded tools we have been using.

I mean, I'm not lying (nor is nrp3) when we say that the M18 battery oscillating tool is just as powerful, if not more than our corded models. I've seen a lot of people saying the same about the Dewalt (even through the Dewalt hate). I have cut nails and old wood with my M18 just as easily as with the Rockwell.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

My lawyer said they'd say something like this. I know my rights. 



HackWork said:


> No need. Post your Bulldog. If I remember correctly, you got one of the lower models. I guarantee you that there are battery tools out there more powerful. The M18 that you are comparing it to might not be, but there are others.
> 
> Now if you were to add a qualifier, such as price or weight, then you would be correct that corded tools (of the same price or weight) are more powerful. But in general, you can't say that because we all know that there are plenty of super powerful battery tools out there that beat the corded tools we have been using.
> 
> I mean, I'm not lying (nor is nrp3) when we say that the M18 battery oscillating tool is just as powerful, if not more than our corded models. I've seen a lot of people saying the same about the Dewalt (even through the Dewalt hate). I have cut nails and old wood with my M18 just as easily as with the Rockwell.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> My lawyer said they'd say something like this. I know my rights.


Did he also tell you that push drills and wobbly screwdrivers have a place in this world? Cause he is leading you down a bad road mister.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> We have discussed this before and although the M18 tools are great I think they're still short of the power and speed under load that I get with corded tools. Example being the Bosch Bulldog SDS versus M18 SDS. I like the M18 and I am not sorry I bought it but if I had to have one or the other, it's the Bulldog for me.



I agree, and I'm speaking from ownership of a huge pile of Milwaukee stuff. I think the "increase" in power is perceived and based on the power of suggestion from all the marketing hype. Although I love all my cordless stuff and don't even carry any corded tools anymore, I do believe that some tools aren't as powerful, like my M18 circular saw, Hole Hawg and SDS hammer drill. But, it doesn't matter because the loss of power is more than made up for with the convenience.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I agree, and I'm speaking from ownership of a huge pile of Milwaukee stuff. I think the "increase" in power is perceived and based on the power of suggestion from all the marketing hype. Although I love all my cordless stuff and don't even carry any corded tools anymore, I do believe that some tools aren't as powerful, like my M18 circular saw, Hole Hawg and SDS hammer drill. But, it doesn't matter because the loss of power is more than made up for with the convenience.


Of course _some_ cordless tools aren't as powerful. Maybe most aren't. But there are many, many cordless tools out there that are more powerful than the corded tools we have been using. And not from this "perceived view" that you just made up.

My M18 2nd gen Fuel drill is another example, it spins a 2-9/16" self feed bit thru 5" of old, hard wood faster and easier than the Milwaukee magnum holeshooter that I had been using up until I got that drill.


----------



## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Of course _some_ cordless tools aren't as powerful. Maybe most aren't. But there are many, many cordless tools out there that are more powerful than the corded tools we have been using. And not from this "perceived view" that you just made up.
> 
> My M18 2nd gen Fuel drill is another example, it spins a 2-9/16" self feed bit thru 5" of old, hard wood faster and easier than the Milwaukee magnum holeshooter that I had been using up until I got that drill.


Sounds like you're comparing old power tools to new battery powered tools...

We should be comparing new power tools to new battery powered tools.

Of course old tools won't compare to the new tools...

Sent from my Samsung using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Sounds like you're comparing old power tools to new battery powered tools...


 Not at all. And I have given examples. Notice how when I asked splatz which model Bulldog he uses, he plead the 5th :vs_laugh: 

Fact: there are some battery tools that are as powerful, or more powerful, than the typical corded tools we use today. Or should I say that we used yesterday because we stopped using them because the battery tools have as much power...


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Of course _some_ cordless tools aren't as powerful. Maybe most aren't. But there are many, many cordless tools out there that are more powerful than the corded tools we have been using. And not from this "perceived view" that you just made up.
> 
> My M18 2nd gen Fuel drill is another example, it spins a 2-9/16" self feed bit thru 5" of old, hard wood faster and easier than the Milwaukee magnum holeshooter that I had been using up until I got that drill.


:sleep1:


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I spoke to my lawyer and he said it was OK to take you to tool school. 

I have these two SDS drills 

Bosch Bulldog Xtreme 8 Amp 1 in. Corded Variable Speed SDS-Plus Concrete/Masonry Rotary Hammer Drill with Carrying Case 
*$159 at Home Depot* (new lower price, that's a great value) 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-B...r-Drill-with-Carrying-Case-11255VSR/202080348 
Before this I had another Bulldog, really old, beat to hell, also worked great until it died. 

Milwaukee M18 FUEL 18-Volt Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless 1-1/8 in. SDS-Plus Rotary Hammer (Tool-Only) 
$369 at Home Depot 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauk...lus-Rotary-Hammer-Tool-Only-2715-20/205563079 
Before this I had a Hilti 24V SDS drill that I bought used and it was OK. Just OK. Used it only when a cord was going to present a challenge. 

I consider them comparable SDS drills. Both are good brands, nothing exotic, readily available, affordable. 

Now I have no particular love for lugging around a cord. Since I bought the M18, it's now the go to SDS+, unless I am expecting trouble, I grab that one. Usually I am drilling holes between 1" and 2" through block. It usually works. It was worth buying. 

However many times when for whatever reason it has trouble - not all block is created equal, some is filled, some is much harder than other - it will bog down and stop making progress. 

Normally at this point I'll lean on it, clean out the debris several times, try slightly changing the angle of pressure, etc. and generally waste time. Then, when I realize I am getting behind here, I bite the bullet, walk to the truck, get the Bulldog and extension cord, and *continue the same hole in the same material with the same bit* and the Bosch smashes through where the Milwaukee was bogged down. 

That's happened plenty of times. There have also been times I have discovered I am hitting metal or maybe there's a fist sized diamond buried in the wall and neither's getting through. 

So nobody is really going to convince me that this top of the line cordless is just as powerful as the ham and egger Bulldog that costs half as much. I don't care what the spec sheets say. I don't care if the Milwaukee is rated for 1-1/8" and the Bosch is only rated for 1"


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

So although this is way off the original topic at this point if you're starting out as a contractor and tooling up, what do you buy? 

Everyone needs that Bulldog. It will do what needs done up to SDS Max / spline chores. At that price it's a no brainer. For a lot of people that will be perfectly adequate and you're done. Save your money for top quality assortment of bits. 

If you do work where you drill enough holes that the big cordless SDS+ saves the time to make it worth your while, you buy that too. For example, if you're setting 100 anchors in block in a day, having the cordless pays, maybe in one day if it's a job where running a cord is really a challenge.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Did he also tell you that push drills and wobbly screwdrivers have a place in this world? Cause he is leading you down a bad road mister.


:vs_mad: 

It's a sad day when this offset, a time saving mechanical marvel is persecuted 










and this offset, a crooked foul thing, is OK


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I have these two SDS drills
> ~
> I consider them comparable SDS drills. Both are good brands, nothing exotic, readily available, affordable.


 It's not what you have, its what's available. That is the simple point that I made which started this here when I said this: "_You’re comparing 2 specific tools, but that doesn’t speak for the entire group of battery or non-battery._"

You picked the wrong battery tool. There are other battery tools that will destroy your Bulldog. We both know this, so I don't know why we are even here now...?

You can't discount the entire genre of battery tools as being less powerful just because the one model that you picked is less powerful than the corded tool you have. That makes no sense, you know that there are more powerful battery tools.


splatz said:


> So although this is way off the original topic at this point if you're starting out as a contractor and tooling up, what do you buy?
> 
> Everyone needs that Bulldog.


 Wrong again, no one needs the Bulldog nowadays. And if you search "Bulldog" and my name, you will see me talking about how great it is for a decade, so I am not against the tool. I used them 90% of the time for 15 years, as every contractor had them. Great tool, but for myself I bought a Hilti TE-7C for that size drilling (I should have bought the Bulldog, though).

A few years ago I sold my Hilti TE-7C corded because it was completely unnecessary. Anything that my M12 SDS-plus can't handle is done by my Hilti TE-60. That is corded, but as soon as I am ready it will be replaced by the big M18 SDS-Max that destroys me Hilti in power.

Again, why would you say that everyone needs a corded Bulldog when you KNOW that there are cordless rotary hammers out there that are significantly more powerful?? :surprise:


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Again, why would you say that everyone needs a corded Bulldog when you KNOW that there are cordless rotary hammers out there that are significantly more powerful?? :surprise:


I know that there's an SDS Max M18 with high capacity battery for like a $grand. Plus the cost of additional extensions and bits. That's more powerful than the $159 Bulldog. The $159 Bulldog is a much better value and more practical, unless you are working in places where there's no 120VAC. 



I am not suggesting that it's impossible to get more power out of batteries than you can get out of utility AC. There are electric cars with more horsepower than that Bulldog  There are submarines that run on battery power. (Or there were...) 



I am saying there are common tasks where the most practical tool (price, availability, weight) is a corded tool, such as SDS+ hammer drill, circular saw, etc.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I know that there's an SDS Max M18 with high capacity battery for like a $grand. Plus the cost of additional extensions and bits. That's more powerful than the $159 Bulldog. The $159 Bulldog is a much better value and more practical, unless you are working in places where there's no 120VAC.


You see? Now you are adding the size, weight, and price qualifier that I spoke about before. That’s a completely different conversation, and I would agree with you there.

But that is not the conversation we were having. You spoke of power/speed alone, and that is what I replied to. Further, I don’t think you have to go up to that extreme size rotary hammer, nor that size battery, to beat the bulldog. I don’t think you believe you have to either.

I am saying there are common tasks where the most practical tool (price, availability, weight) is a corded tool, such as SDS+ hammer drill, circular saw, etc.[/QUOTE] This is different than what you said earlier. And when I actually brought this up, you said that you wouldn’t reply because the lawyer nonsense. I hope you didn’t pay him.


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

You guys should just dockbrows and get it over with.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> But that is not the conversation we were having. You spoke of power/speed alone, and that is what I replied to. Further, I don’t think you have to go up to that extreme size rotary hammer, nor that size battery, to beat the bulldog. *I don’t think you believe you have to either.*


No, I did - thought the Milwaukee 1-1/8" I posted earlier was the top of the mark for 18V SDS+ - do you know of any between that one and the SDS max? I might buy.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> And when I actually brought this up, you said that you wouldn’t reply because the lawyer nonsense. I hope you didn’t pay him.


I'd never pay a lawyer


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> You guys should just dockbrows and get it over with.


Hush up I am trying to play hard to get


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> No, I did - thought the Milwaukee 1-1/8" I posted earlier was the top of the mark for 18V SDS+ - do you know of any between that one and the SDS max? I might buy.


I don’t know of a more powerful Milwaukee, there might be a more powerful model from another brand. However, I see no reason to limit it to SDS plus. Anything that bogs down that SDS plus can easily be done with an SDS Max. They clearly can make more powerful SDS plus rotary hammers, but they don’t for a reason. That reason, I suspect, is because people jump up to SDS Max at that point.

As I mentioned earlier, that’s how I do it now. Anything that my M 12 rotary hammer can’t handle, i use the Hilton TE60.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I don’t know of a more powerful Milwaukee, there might be a more powerful model from another brand. However, I see no reason to limit it to SDS plus. Anything that bogs down that SDS plus can easily be done with an SDS Max. They clearly can make more powerful SDS plus rotary hammers, but they don’t for a reason. That reason, I suspect, is because people jump up to SDS Max at that point.


OK let me see. There are pros and cons either way...

SDS+ Corded Drill: 

* $159
* same bits, no new bits to buy 
* same extensions, new extensions to buy 
* light 
* requires 120VAC available 

SDS Max Battery Drill 

* $700 ? 
* need double the core bits in the small sizes
* duplicate the extensions 
* heavy 
* does not require 120VAC 
* also drives ground rods 

It might be that for a residential guy that the SDS max battery _might_ be the one to buy. The ground rods and no-power-needed are big pro's. You might only need a couple sizes core bits, maybe 2.5" and ?? depending one what you usually install.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> OK let me see. There are pros and cons either way...


 Pro's and con's don't enter into this discussion. Those are the qualifiers that I mentioned in an earlier post. 

I was discussing what you brought up, power and speed. Again, I mentioned early on, when you were still hiding behind your lawyer, that if you bring qualifiers into it then sometimes corded tools would win.


----------

