# HAS the IBEW LOWERED ITS SKILL LEVEL BY ORGANI



## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Not trying to be insulting to anyone just a new topic to talk about.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> not trying to be insulting to anyone just a new topic to talk about.


 
organizing


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I don't think its just the IBEW its the whole trade in general because it seems like the skill level has drop on both sides of the fence.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't buy this bit about the skill level of the trade dropping. Our trade is more complex than it's ever been, with more code rules than ever and more technology to deal with. Complex buildings, from a custom house to a skyscraper, are still being built just fine.

Furthermore, let's not forget that it does not take a great deal of education and skills to be an electrician. No higher education, degree or certification is required. Sure, many states require apprentices, where an apprenticeship is even required, to attend school, and require licensed electricians to attend CEU's. But beyond that, having mechanical skills and common sense is all that is needed to be an electrician. To use the old saying, 'its not rocket science.'


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

A few thoughts.

I coach my grandson's ball team. The less experienced kids seem to pick up what the better kids are doing. When we play against the very good teams, our playing ability seems to get better.

Also, Once upon a time, organizing was the battle cry of the Hall, as the number of merit out weighted the number of collective. When the numbers where in the favor of the collective, then the social club mentality emerged. All the work became the IBEW work (in their mind) and the us/them battle began.

I have seen skilled and less than skilled in both sectors. However, cream rises to the top.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I don't buy this bit about the skill level of the trade dropping. Our trade is more complex than it's ever been, with more code rules than ever and more technology to deal with. Complex buildings, from a custom house to a skyscraper, are still being built just fine.'


 I agree, but on most of these large jobs you have some very good electricians and rest don't care or just don't get it. Alot of the highrise condos going up in town are being roughed and trimed out by some idoits. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't enough well rounded electrician's out there that can make it happen and don't need to be baby sitted.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

william1978 said:


> I agree, but on most of these large jobs you have some very good electricians and rest don't care or just don't get it. Alot of the highrise condos going up in town are being roughed and trimed out by some idoits. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't enough well rounded electrician's out there that can make it happen and don't need to be baby sitted.



That's how it's always been though. All you need are a few smart guys to tell the "idiots" what to do. It's just assembly work after all.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Minuteman said:


> I have seen skilled and less than skilled in both sectors. However, cream rises to the top.


 That right there pretty sums it up. The cream still have jobs right now.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Peter D said:


> That's how it's always been though. All you need are a few smart guys to tell the "idiots" what to do. It's just assembly work after all.


 Thats right for sure.:thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

To borrow something that Bob Badger has said in the past, we are not in a Nobel prize winning trade. It's just electrical work.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I like the inflow of ideas of the organized folks. Most are dammed good electricians. Many do not have experience in the heavy industrial environment, but ether did I 10 years ago. What was our core business is getting smaller every year as manufacturing moves overseas. If the IBEW is to survive we must move more into the commercial residential area. The most experience folks in that area are the non-union electricians. I need to learn from them.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

one thing that has occurred is the necessity of the creation of creating labor saving tools and materials...a part of this is due to the increase in wages, and the decrease in productivity, as a whole...

there are too many wasted man hours on projects in general...this simply raises the cost to the customer, or lowers the profit of the contractor...neither is really good...

i've seen jobs where 5 qualified guys would suffice, but 2 qualified and 6 not-so-qualified were all that was available...

add to that the lack of pride in our trades....and well, hopefully it will all turn back around before I retire...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Good electricians are out there but they become fire alarm men, control guys, trouble shooters, and on and on. Most basic electrical work can be done by anybody with a leader directing them. The majority of work on a large project is assembly line work. Even the most expierenced assembly line electricians do not need to know anything about electricity. drill this, cut that, hang it here, run it there.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

brian john said:


> Good electricians are out there but they become fire alarm men, control guys, trouble shooters, and on and on. Most basic electrical work can be done by anybody with a leader directing them. The majority of work on a large project is assembly line work. Even the most expierenced assembly line electricians do not need to know anything about electricity. drill this, cut that, hang it here, run it there.


Thank You Brian, I take that as a compliment :thumbup:
Before I went to "the dark side" all I pretty much did for the last few years was Fire alarms and security in commercial projects 
Well that and "guide" the foremen that ran the electrical side of the project.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

brian john said:


> Good electricians are out there but they become fire alarm men, control guys, trouble shooters, and on and on. Most basic electrical work can be done by anybody with a leader directing them. The majority of work on a large project is assembly line work. Even the most expierenced assembly line electricians do not need to know anything about electricity. drill this, cut that, hang it here, run it there.


Well Brian thats a big misconception your really feel that a construction electrician is not electrically schooled and that they are assemblers ? 

And that a testing electrician is the only electricians that know anything about electrical work and a fire alarm tech is steps ahead of us as far as there ability to install a fire alarm circuit .

You guys have got to come out to our job sites and ill take you on a tour kinda show you what we need to know its a little bit more then monkey work at the assembly line . 
Ive kinda heard this before on this forum and kinda laughed a little but thers different electricians in this big world not just the ones you see each day lets give them some respect when you say bigg jobs you hit a sore spot there Brian . Take care we know you mean well but kinda hit home ther .


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Good electricians are out there but they become fire alarm men, control guys, trouble shooters, and on and on. Most basic electrical work can be done by anybody with a leader directing them. The majority of work on a large project is assembly line work. Even the most expierenced assembly line electricians do not need to know anything about electricity. drill this, cut that, hang it here, run it there.


I would say that control guys are a little more skilled than fire alarm guys simply because I don't think most fire alarm guys could jump right in and do controls unless they've done that before, whereas control guys could jump right in and do fire alarm stuff as it's nothing more than basic controls.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I would say that control guys are a little more skilled than fire alarm guys simply because I don't think most fire alarm guys could jump right in and do controls unless they've done that before, whereas control guys could jump right in and do fire alarm stuff as it's nothing more than basic controls.




Well any job can be mastered if one really wants to do that job . Someone told me that once the most high tech control work is a basic switch on or off . 
It maybe temp- speed- position -rotate - time - delayed controlled but its simply ON or OFF done by the old relay or today a PC/LOGIC and programing I/O . 
We all have our tech spots in this trade and each of us give a project our touch in our scope but thers lots of things done that are a skill and what iam saying is experience on doing new construction from the ground to the final finished project. What is skill ? How or why do we feel any trade is more skilled then the other ? 
How is the union going lower now in there skill ?
Did you know that there is a shortage of new electrical workers and it s coming up in our future there is less looking to do electrical work its a fact !

Heres what i say most electricians after school just work in the trade day to day . They dont read about or study electrical or want to learn any further than getting and passing there JR card STOP .

If you want to suceed in this world one must keep up with new ways study go to classes learn on you own. Read the code book each year when we have a book change read about new electrical inovative stuff . keep up with the times ! No one does that ever we just go by each day thinking were smarter ? BE SAFE


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

nick said:


> Well any job can be mastered if one really wants to do that job . Someone told me that once the most high tech control work is a basic switch on or off .
> It maybe temp- speed- position -rotate - time - delayed controlled but its simply ON or OFF done by the old relay or today a PC/LOGIC and programing I/O .


 
The boss at the first company I worked for wiring houses about 14 years ago once made the comment in the shop at the end of the day that "you guys aren't elcetricians, you're electrical installers". I don't think he was saying it to be demeaning, but just in jest, but it stuck with me nonetheless. I took it to mean that because none of the guys were actually licensed they were just basically installers, which when I thought about it I agreed. 

And controls is basically just a bunch of on off switches, or at least the binary and digital points are. Analog points aren't though. Somehow though, at least for me, when I was new to controls and I was told the same thing by the guy I was working with, it doesn't make it any easier to learn by simply thinking about it as a switch. There is much more to it than that.

I never had experience working with relays before doing controls. I had learned about them in school, but that didn't give me a firm understanding of how they worked. Hell, we've got guys in our company right now who have been doing here longer than me, who don't have a firm understanding about how half of this stuff works! :laughing:

I think anyone can learn anything. It's just a matter of do they actually have a desire to learn it or understand it. Some guys just don't care to know how stuff works. I've always had to know how or why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's never been enough for me to simply be able to install it properly. I have to know why or how it is working. So I guess I've always had the desire to learn this stuff.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nick said:


> Well Brian thats a big misconception your really feel that a construction electrician is not electrically schooled and that they are assemblers ?


Nick I spend my time dealing with issues on construction sites and !))% I stand by my statement. 

{quote]
And that a testing electrician is the only electricians that know anything about electrical work and a fire alarm tech is steps ahead of us as far as there ability to install a fire alarm circuit .[/quote]
I never mentioned testers you did.



> You guys have got to come out to our job sites and ill take you on a tour kinda show you what we need to know its a little bit more then monkey work at the assembly line .


Sorry that you feel slighted BUT facts are facts as I said MOST, not all, not you,. BUT MOST and I spend tons of time bailing out construction electtricians, talking to the same and when 99 of of a 100 do not know what kva is or can calculate the primary and secodary amperage of transformers with factory furnished wallet size kva spread sheet. I question their ability.



> Ive kinda heard this before on this forum and kinda laughed a little but thers different electricians in this big world not just the ones you see each day lets give them some respect when you say bigg jobs you hit a sore spot there Brian . Take care we know you mean well but kinda hit home ther .


There is nothing wrong with not knowing anything about electricity if our job only involves assembly line work. Most of these guys are good at what they do and qualify as electricians by their job, but are not fully knowledgable in the trade.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well your old boss is typical of what the real world thinks . Ive always needed to know also the whole picture on how things work in fact i enjoy controls and electronics as a past time kinda .

I work as a electrician day job many many years and run a small bussiness on my own i sell electricians tools which i design & manufacture and sell to electrical contractors . Steelerman keep up the way you are thinking its good to be educated and know how things work inside and out thats what makes the differance between a electrician and a good electrician . Be SAFE


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well Brian its ok we know what you testing guys do and charge us for testing our equipment on each project , We cant legally do it so we have Electric Power Systems they do it for us ! 

I kinda only see what our company has or does ill say weve got some good people and electricians so that was my point . 


Dont ever see other electrical contractors work or jobs i guess you see more by testing and traveling around the country Brian ? 

Its ok Brian my feathers are not ruffled we see your point makes me wonder what others are doing ? Take care


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

When I read the thread title, I said "oh crap, here we go again". I was wrong. Thanks for playing nice...at least for the first 21 posts.

As far as the IBEW lowering it's skill level, I know there are some who were organized just because they happened to be running a temp power cord when an organizer showed up to their job site. 

After WWII local 11 went down to the Naval shipyards in San Pedro, Wilmington, and Long Beach to gather up electricians for their first formal organizing drive. One of the first to sign up was a small little pipe fitter who wore a blue and white engineers outfit. Didn't know a lick of electrical. He happened into the wrong line. Yet he was a member for quite a few years.

I believe the locals who organize like crazy, just might be in it for recognition or dues money, and in turn might cause higher unemployment. Back in the day, when you had to know someone to get in, I think there was a stronger work ethic and more pride in one's own work.

Overall, the lack of skill level is due to uneducated, unmotivated, entitled kids and for some reason we are not allowed to crack some sense into them, because it might damage their self-esteem.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

nick said:


> Well Brian thats a big misconception your really feel that a construction electrician is not electrically schooled and that they are assemblers ?


In my area, all electricians are required to go to school, but sitting in class and actually learning something are worlds apart. In my experience, I found that very few workers actually care about learning the "nuts and bolts" of the trade - things like electrical principles, derating, etc. 

As for construction electricians being assemblers, that is the very definition of construction work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> Back in the day, when you had to know someone to get in, I think there was a stronger work ethic and more pride in one's own work.


Some of the biggest slackers I know had Daddy's that were in a good place to get their son in the local. Hell some of the biggest druggies in the 70's had connections in the local, that is what kept them in time after time and kept a few good men out.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

From what I've seen and continue to see
The work ethic in general has gone down. That and more electricians seem to getting in a rut and staying there as it's comfortable. Some are pipe wizards, some are large pipe wizards, some wire pull gurus, some are systems fanatics,
There are those who only do service work.
I have seen electricians with 25+ years and can't read a print correctly.
I mean they have no clue how to look at a complete set of drawings and get their answers.
There are those who are at the top of the game also.

It seems that the days of an electrician being able to do it all are slipping away?
Instead we have guy A who runs conduit, Guy B pulls cable,
group C trims out. 
We have residential guys who have never done anything but jerk romex.
Yeah I can see where one can use the term installers


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Nick:

I have 39 years in the trade and that alone gives me an edge BUT I have an edge beyond that. In the first 10 years I did construction, industrial, commercial, fire alarms, controls, generators and transfer switches, gas stations, schools, churches, garden apts., condos, houses tract and custom, homes. I took the time to get around the trade and learn all aspects because I wanted to be well rounded.

Today the one area I lack in is code and espically residential code as I have not kept up with the changes in the residential market an area I do almost no work in.

I base my comments on assemblers not as a slight as I said previously or in some hubris (worked it in boys) approach to our profession but on experience.

I have commented before on how I try to teach others and a vast majority tell me they could care less about what I am doing, get it done and get out. This is not a Washington DC thing, I have expierenced it across the nation, union and open shop.

Remember there is a lot to learn here, yet between here, MH and the other electrical sites there are very few members when compared to the vast numbers of assemblers out there. And those here are usually NOT ASSMEBLERS but professionals that want to get ahead and learn something then there are a few that like to stir the pot.:laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Remember there is a lot to learn here, yet between here, MH and the other electrical sites there are very few members when compared to the vast numbers of assemblers out there. And those here are usually NOT ASSMEBLERS but professionals that want to get ahead and learn something then there are a few that like to stir the pot.:laughing:


 
I can't stand pot-stirrers


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well Brian we see one apprentice out of ten thats going to make a good electrician . Each year we go thur lots of help our company sees lots of workers pass thur the doors so we see it . The future is here ! 

Ive been working in the trade since 1969 . Wve done all the mistakes thats why were wiser today ! 

Lots of jobs thur the years only commercial and industrial & a few power plants i know nothing about a house but i did build mine and failed my electrical inspection because i had a box in the attic . Here i do multi million dollar electrical projects for my company and i failed my own home electrical inspection . we think about just what we see not what anyone else sees .
Take care some posts really get us to think that there is others out there not just us .


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't think this is a union issue. There are good apprentices in non-union and union construction. There are also the ones who you try and show the correct way, or explain a theory to and they are not worth the effort. I believe that open shop and union alike would tell you they have both types of people.

As it has been said, all we can do is show a good example to follow.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Vulcan mind-meld with Nick and Brian John. Do it now Spock!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nick said:


> Well Brian thats a big misconception your really feel that a construction electrician is not electrically schooled and that they are assemblers ?


I agree with Brian and if your honest with yourself I think you will see it as well.

Not everyone on large jobs are assemblers but many are. Nick your the brains, that is why your in that plan shack you posted. But on those large jobs you work on a good portion of the electricians on that job only care about getting their hours in and have no interest in doing anything more then installing equipment. 

If your running 30,000 feet of 4" underground, or 4000 light fixtures most of the guys doing that are just assembly line workers. You will spread some lead guys with a bunch of 'non-leaders'.

You can't tell me everyone on your jobs is equal in ability or motivation.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> If your running 30,000 feet of 4" underground, or 4000 light fixtures most of the guys doing that are just assembly line workers. You will spread some lead guys with a bunch of 'non-leaders'.


And the industry needs those guys, make a guy a specialist and then ask him to install 4" GRS and he'll look at you like you are nuts.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well honestly yes i agree we have people that specialize in each of there own areas like i do gear power distribution on every project we have crews that only do one job on all jobs .

We do flip flop people around meaning let them move around different tasks to give them a chance to see how they perform best in different parts of our projects .

I mostly get the old timers or the most seasoned electricians do to the dollars in gear and the cost on most jobs , our company has a training program if you want to learn they have a actual training center at our main shop which you attend school and learn how to bend conduit , read prints , pull wire , code classes , read and understand mechanical or structural drawns , just about any aspect in our trade. 

And they pay for the guys to attend classes . once a year they have a code seminar and we always have like greenlee or dewalt or others come and demo there best tools for our guys . 

The main goal of our work force is a positive one if you want to be a electrician we will teach you and pay you ! 

Honestly i can say our electricians are well on there way to become better trained electricians in the field . 

If you make the effort to do this your work force will be well trained you production will be at its best and it will pay for itself time and time .

You have to push or sell it to them but most workers what to learn at least i think so i maybe wrong i never stopped learning yet !!

Take care be safe


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

nick said:


> our company has a training program if you want to learn they have a actual training center at our main shop which you attend school and learn how to bend conduit , read prints , pull wire , code classes , read and understand mechanical or structural drawns , just about any aspect in our trade.
> 
> Take care be safe


An inhouse training center sounds like a good place to screen people for advancement. If classes were free, but the time was not paid for, that would identify guys who were hungry to work hard and do a better job.
Not just that, the 'thinkers' are the guys with the most potential, identify them and nurture them, gain trust and loyalty, sounds like a winning business plan. But, I don't know business, just want to be a good installer.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> An inhouse training center sounds like a good place to screen people for advancement. If classes were free, but the time was not paid for, that would identify guys who were hungry to work hard and do a better job.
> Not just that, the 'thinkers' are the guys with the most potential, identify them and nurture them, gain trust and loyalty, sounds like a winning business plan. But, I don't know business, just want to be a good installer.


Well we originally did not pay workers to attend but not many came! When you pay they do come and they actually see that our company is really interested in training .

Then the next class there attendance is less until we see the hardcore interested electricians in class . 

Its a process of elimination and the men get a book that they can show what classes they passed when its evaluation day a pay increase or a progress report yearly on a worker it looks good for them .

If you invest in your work force you will invest wisely .
One must use a little honey and the bees will come ! Take care be safe


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