# Southwire Issues



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

did anyone ever use a megger on the same wire?

Pete


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

flyingspade said:


> Check you 14/3 Romex SIMpull before installing (a simple meter check was used)! We received a phone call yesterday from a local county inspector in Virginia that another local electrical contractor has installed 1000's of feet of faulty 14/3 Romex from Southwire.
> 
> Testing by County
> 
> ...


Someone should tell the inspector about "phantom voltage":laughing:

And tell him to get a professional meter...:laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Someone should tell the inspector about "phantom voltage":laughing:
> 
> And tell him to get a professional meter...:laughing:


Why would they have an unconnected wire? We usually use all the wires we install. Sounds a little strange to me.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

what county
what supply house


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ah, ok. Where's the problem? Sounds like someone flipping out over a little capacitive coupling between the energized and de-energized conductor.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Sounds fishy fishy. That test will tell you nothing.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Sounds like a bunch of unqualified people making a stink about ghost voltage. Time for some continuing ed!!!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

If there ain't an insulation-resistance test involved in this, you've got nothing.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Isn't all southwire dated , with a name on it...?

~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Isn't all southwire dated , with a name on it...?
> 
> ~CS~


Yes it looks like this, 20130313-1759 EDT built by Chicken Steve in Vermont....:laughing:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'd still like the OP to post the county that supposedly is saying this


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

I watched cable tested at Nexans. They submerged the reel in a wet bath and meggered it. I'd be surprised if Southwire didn't test their cable.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I bought a roll of mc a while back, just had a chance to use it. 12-2

I was about halfway through the roll and by chance actually looked at the insulation to see if it was thhn or thwn. It said THHN 10AWG.:blink: This is from Southwire as well.


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## flyingspade (Apr 9, 2009)

First off, I don't appreciate some of the comments received. Let me try to clarify and respond to your comments. 

Scenerio that happened today:
My project manager receives a call from a local county inspector. I happened to be walking by and they asked for my opinion. I did not ask for questions in regards of what county this was, but I can find out tomorrow.
This county inspector informed us a competitor used Southwire Simpull Romex 14/3 cable on a large condo complex. After megger testing of the damaged circuits, the competitor and county determined that 14/3 was the culprit (between the red/black), in large quantities. The county was present and toke a sample of the cable to do further testing and reporting to the UL, but is unaware of the size/dates of the issue yet. Our firm has asked to be provided with manufactured dates once known.
This county inspector asks our office to just take some voltmeter samples of stock of our Romex cable and see if we happened to have any faulty cable. We typically use Southwire SIMpull + other brands for our projects, and we did not find any faulty cables within our warehouse at this present time. The county informed us ,at this time, that the sampled faulty cables failed the simple test described in my earlier post, and were just trying to sizing up the issue.

As for the comments on phantom voltages:
- Phantom voltages in the range of 0-8 volts would be more typical, not 34-84 volts. The county informed our firm that when the unconnected conductor was shorted to ground (with a load attached to primary conductor), a continuous current of up to 8 mA was documented, enough to trip a typical GFCI.
- The Southwire SIMpull 14/3 in question is a flat cable, it is not a typical twisted type of 14/3 romex. Inductance is possible, but it would not be as high as typical spiral wound 14/3.

Now I know I should of have mentioned the fact how exactly the issue was determined, but at the time of posting I was in the office and figured I could quickly post something. I do not post things often, but i regularly visit this site and look at some other people's situations. 
Wouldn't it just suck to find out all that 14/3 you installed today/week/month failed once you check for faults? Don't tell me you check every roll you use, as no one has the time to do that when installing 10,000's of feet. The firm I work for is larger than 10 people, and we are have more than 250 new homes and several other contracts in the books for this year. I don't know, or care, when you check for faults, but this competitor apparently checked for faults during trim-out, as drywall and paint was up. I preform my megger testing during rough-in, and by each panel, but that is my philosophy. Just imagine the situation presented to my competitor. I definately would not want to be in their shoes.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Phantom voltages far above 8 volts are very common....over 50 is not uncommon.
I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe there is any type of problem with the cable.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm with Don... I don't see what the big stink is about.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

To the OP... Nobody has thrown or made personal comments about you, just more or less the data as it sits, is inconclusive. 

For an "epidemic" such as this, I think the county inspector would want testing done by a 3rd party testing company. Properly documented of course. 

Throwing a T5 on the end of a 10' whip of cable that's energized doesn't seem to cut it in my eyes.

Keep us posted.


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## flyingspade (Apr 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Phantom voltages far above 8 volts are very common....over 50 is not uncommon.
> I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe there is any type of problem with the cable.


Don,
I guess how it was worded could make it very confusing. 

Some minor clarifications:
- We were told it was megger tested at the damaged locations, and the fault was found between red / black. I meant to mention to connect the 120 volt circuit between red/white or black/white.
- Phantom voltages of 34-84 volts on a 10' piece of scrap 14/3 would worry me. Typical readings would be anywhere from 0-8 volts. 
- This could still be a very localized issue here, as it is still possible that the competitor could have really pissed someone off. It's just odd the only locations was the 14/3 cable. Maybe these went through a pre-fab facility, and it could of been damaged there. Details are still unknown.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

flyingspade said:


> We were told it was megger tested at the damaged locations, and the fault was found between red / black.


Do you mean the wire was psysically damaged off the roll or during installation?

Depending on the input impedance and type of meter your phantom voltages are going to read all over the place. A high quality digital meter for example will present very little load whereas a cheap meter may measure a much lower voltage.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

flyingspade said:


> Don,
> I guess how it was worded could make it very confusing.
> 
> Some minor clarifications:
> ...


Was the megger used on the 10' test section? If so what were the results. 

Where do you get the idea that the phantom voltage should be less than 8 volts for that application? I could see conditions where the phantom voltage would be almost equal to the supply voltage.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

xlink said:


> I watched cable tested at Nexans. They submerged the reel in a wet bath and meggered it. I'd be surprised if Southwire didn't test their cable.


 After a mine electrical accident,M.S.H.A. does a water bath test on cables running voltage through it to test for faults.Tests at cables rated voltage


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Kind of reminds of this test I performed a few years back:


I jammed the black and white ends from an entire roll of 14/3 into a recept. and read the voltage of the red wire.
The red wire was not attached anywhere.










I used a variety of testers:










I tested for voltage..








GreenLeeGT-11










FlukeT2









AWS Snap8









Vol-Con









Fluke87

Is there really any voltage on that red conductor?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ........Is there really any voltage on that red conductor?


Put a load on it........ _then _measure it.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Kind of reminds of this test I performed a few years back:
> 
> I jammed the black and white ends from an entire roll of 14/3 into a recept. and read the voltage of the red wire.
> The red wire was not attached anywhere.
> ...


Touch it and see


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Try THIS:

Test again, using BOTH the fluke 87 digital meter AND the Ideal Vol-Con testers connected together.

Then post the results of the fluke's reading.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I wired a 500' spool of 12/4 SJWO to a 3 phase 208 panel years ago. 
My non-contact tester chirped on the unconnected wire. It read 48 volts with a DDM & 0 volts with a Simpson. You could not feel anything when you touched it. 
It took about 1 minute to melt it when I connected it to a 2hp motor on an exhaust fan. 

Then it was coffee break time.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

flyingspade said:


> Don,
> I guess how it was worded could make it very confusing.
> 
> Some minor clarifications:
> ...


Your test method does not prove anything right or wrong with the 14/3. Googe capactive reactance and inductive reactance. The conductors in the wire held together in close proximity with one another and only insulated/seperated by thin thermoplastic insulation causes a high capacitive values to be present. Romex is not exempt from physics. Where are you getting the 8 volt limit? Look at the pics above, they are real, and they demonstrate that if you measure with a high impedance meter then you can get voltages measured as high as what is applied to the roll. Theoretically even if the insulation was 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 ohms per mile, which is way below that on romex, you would still have capitive reactance present.


The only way to test it is with a megger, the megger applies a DC voltage to test the insulation resistance itself. From there it would be determined if its within UL spec. Im not entriely doubting you the wire may be defective it may not. I have gotten roles in the past where theres a dead short or the covering is nicked from the factory. It happens sometimes. 


Fun fact, In underground HV and EHV transmission sysyems, when very long lenghths of XLPE or fluid filled cable are used the cpacitive values are so great between the phases and phase to ground that often the charging current alone of the cable is 100 of amps, limiting the amount of power that can be sent.


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## Peewee0413 (Oct 18, 2012)

Call the ghostbusters....or take it back....


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

As for the comments on phantom voltages:
- Phantom voltages in the range of 0-8 volts would be more typical, not 34-84 volts. The county informed our firm that when the unconnected conductor was shorted to ground (with a load attached to primary conductor), a continuous current of up to 8 mA was documented, enough to trip a typical GFCI.
- The Southwire SIMpull 14/3 in question is a flat cable, it is not a typical twisted type of 14/3 romex. Inductance is possible, but it would not be as high as typical spiral wound 14/3.

So a 120 source and load were attached to two of the wires and the third wire was grounded? 

Or was the sorce to load connedction made with one wire and an additional external wire was used to return the load current to the source?



So 8 mA with 120V is only 15 k Ohms. If you want to consider the reactive impedance it would be 0.18 uF. Either way this is too small a shunt impedance for a short run of wire.

Although the phantom voltage reading from a high impdance meter reading is not very useful in judging the quality of the cable, the 8 mA current with only 120V applied is damming.

I cannot think of a way to connect the 120V source and load with good romex and have an 8mA draw when an unconnected wire is grounded.

EJPHI


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

EJPHI said:


> As for the comments on phantom voltages:
> - Phantom voltages in the range of 0-8 volts would be more typical, not 34-84 volts. The county informed our firm that when the unconnected conductor was shorted to ground (with a load attached to primary conductor), a continuous current of up to 8 mA was documented, enough to trip a typical GFCI.
> - The Southwire SIMpull 14/3 in question is a flat cable, it is not a typical twisted type of 14/3 romex. Inductance is possible, but it would not be as high as typical spiral wound 14/3.
> 
> ...


That post I didnt see, only read the first and last, but if thats the actual 8ma draw than theres an issue. 

@OP, what is the name and date on the wire?


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## xlink (Mar 12, 2012)

On the original, faulty install. I wonder if they tested the drywall screws with a non-contact voltage tester.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

meadow said:


> That post I didnt see, only read the first and last, but if thats the actual 8ma draw than theres an issue...


 I agree with that. What bothers me about this whole thing is that it almost sounds like a chain-letter e-mail: A bunch of scary stuff regarding a very specific product, but no explanation of where it happened, who was involved, or what actual industry standard test results were.

Lots of important details missing. I'm waiting to hear more.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Big John said:


> I agree with that. What bothers me about this whole thing is that it almost sounds like a chain-letter e-mail: A bunch of scary stuff regarding a very specific product, but no explanation of where it happened, who was involved, or what actual industry standard test results were.


I agree....one of the reasons I posted that series of test photos...



Big John said:


> Lots of important details missing. I'm waiting to hear more.


....but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for much from a member with 20 posts since 2009.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Famous last words of a dead lineman.

"If it isn't grounded, it isn't dead"


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Kind of reminds of this test I performed a few years back:
> 
> 
> I jammed the black and white ends from an entire roll of 14/3 into a recept. and read the voltage of the red wire.
> ...


Clear violation of 70E. No PPE. Playing with live circuits. Breaking the law, and posting pictures of it. The 70E police will be banging on your door tomorrow. :whistling2:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

A+ thread. :brows:


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