# Europe



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I was in Europe. All 220 volts. The 220 volt hair dryers are nice. Thin coil cords, lighter weight. Even kitchen appliances like Microwaves, low draw items.

The USA 120volt design leaves a lot to be desired. Increased copper cost & labor. Limitations on certain devices.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> I was in Europe. All 220 volts. The 220 volt hair dryers are nice. Thin coil cords, lighter weight. Even kitchen appliances like Microwaves, low draw items.
> 
> The USA 120volt design leaves a lot to be desired. Increased copper cost & labor. Limitations on certain devices.


Another good reason to switch up to 600/347 volt system.:thumbsup:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> Another good reason to switch up to 600/347 volt system.:thumbsup:


We don't have to stop at 600/347 any more...we can go to 1000/577 with the over 600 volt rules having been changed to over 1,000 volts in the NEC.:001_huh:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> We don't have to stop at 600/347 any more...we can go to 1000/577 with the over 600 volt rules having been changed to over 1,000 volts in the NEC.:001_huh:


:laughing: Don't get belted from that...:jester:


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## bjjohns (Jun 10, 2015)

We don't need no stinking wires . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power#Tesla.27s_experiments
:whistling2::laughing:


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

Spark Master said:


> I was in Europe. All 220 volts. The 220 volt hair dryers are nice. Thin coil cords, lighter weight. Even kitchen appliances like Microwaves, low draw items.
> 
> The USA 120volt design leaves a lot to be desired. Increased copper cost & labor. Limitations on certain devices.


Is it 220 hot to neutral or are both conductors hot, like they are in 240v systems in the US?

And can someone explain .. in the higher voltage systems, the resistance of the appliances is higher, so the current is proportionally lower, hence the power consumed by the appliance is the same..

Then, how is the European nominal voltage make things more efficient?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Nutmegger777 said:


> Is it 220 hot to neutral or are both conductors hot, like they are in 240v systems in the US?
> 
> And can someone explain .. in the higher voltage systems, the resistance of the appliances is higher, so the current is proportionally lower, hence the power consumed by the appliance is the same..
> 
> Then, how is the European nominal voltage make things more efficient?


Power wise, they can't. 

What drove these design decisions: Mercantilism.

THE proponent of Mercantilism -- from the first -- has been France -- going back to the 17th Century.

In one sentence, a Mercantilist nation attempts to import silver and export everything else -- and to NOT import anything but silver ... and gold.

{ It would shock gold-bugs, but gold was not used as (commercial) money until the 19th Century. Hence, Pound Sterling (silver) and L'Argent ( that's French for money -- entirely derived from the Latin for silver) }

With that in mind, you can imagine what happened in the 19th Century when all of these standards started: Stop the Americans. Stop Tesla. Stop Edison. Stop AT&T.

Towards that end, the politicians -- not the electrical engineers -- established 50 Hz (not 60 Hz) as the basic frequency of Europe. A 50 Hz motor can be exported to America and work fine. An American 60 Hz motor can't be exported to Europe -- UNLESS it's de-rated. Such a de-rating leaves the American device in an weird niche, either having too much or too little horsepower for a driven load.

Likewise, the politicians made sure to stay away from either Tesla's or Edison's standards at every turn. Hence the ubiquitous Edison screw plug was kept out of Europe... to the extent possible. Once its patents expired, things were different.

And, finally, voltages were selected that would favor domestic manufactures and frustrate all imports. This last bit is only now being corrected. The IEC is shifting to a uniform 400 VAC 50 Hz motor scheme. 

Politics, Mercantilism, drove every one of the key decisions. The players made no bones about it. 

Any engineering justification is mere rationalization for European trade policy.

Switching power supplies and VFDs have proved to be a serious threat to the IEC barrier. So additional, creative differences have been mandated to keep American electrical goods OUT of Europe. 

{ You know how France kept Japanese VCRs from taking over the French market? They forced Japan to send every single unit to a small town in southern France for customs inspection. No other path into France was permitted. (!) :blink:

The inspections required disassembly, and reassembly. (!) } :laughing:


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## billn (Aug 31, 2011)

On the other hand, our 60 Hz transformers are less massive. From what I understand of the UK system, they run their circuits in a complete loop. They are also higher amperage, as all plugs are fused.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Nutmegger777 said:


> Is it 220 hot to neutral or are both conductors hot, like they are in 240v systems in the US?
> 
> And can someone explain .. in the higher voltage systems, the resistance of the appliances is higher, so the current is proportionally lower, hence the power consumed by the appliance is the same..
> 
> Then, how is the European nominal voltage make things more efficient?


They are all 3 phase Y systems, and they're 230v to neutral and 400v line to line. Variations exist like 220/380, 240/415 and 250/433 but I'm given to understand that 230/400 was decided as a target voltage for all the Euro grids to normalise to.

The efficiency is higher because of less power wasted in line loss, and they get away with smaller conductors than we do for the same type of load. On top of that they have a single system for everything in a typical building, in other words no transformers and therefore no standby losses from those. They don't have a 277/480 or 347/600 system which powers their motors and discharge lighting, and then a bunch of transformers to give them 120/208 for receptacles and whatever. All lighting is 230v and all motors 400v.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Their vacuum cleaners are 230volt. No heavy line cords, or hot line cords, with melted plug ends.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Nutmegger777 said:


> Is it 220 hot to neutral or are both conductors hot, like they are in 240v systems in the US?
> 
> And can someone explain .. in the higher voltage systems, the resistance of the appliances is higher, so the current is proportionally lower, hence the power consumed by the appliance is the same..
> 
> Then, how is the European nominal voltage make things more efficient?



Same power, less current. The wiring in the wall is a lot thinner and a lot less voltage drop. If we went to 240 volts, our 120 volt circuits will now carry double the power and in turn literally half the circuits would be needed for any home. With voltage drop no longer a concern we could drop 240.4 (D) and load #14 up to 20amps and #12 up to 25 amps as Canada is already doing so making for even greater copper savings up to 1/3 of what we have use now. 


Large buildings are 230/400Y, much more efficent because you bypass all the 480-120/208 transformers. 




In terms of applainces: 1,800 watts divided by 120 volts =15amp

1,800 volts divided by 230 volts= 7.8 amps. 

In Europe most circuits are 16amps wired in 1.5mm2 copper (thinner then our #14 which is 2.08mm2. Win-win.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Spark Master said:


> I was in Europe. All 220 volts. The 220 volt hair dryers are nice. Thin coil cords, lighter weight. Even kitchen appliances like Microwaves, low draw items.
> 
> The USA 120volt design leaves a lot to be desired. Increased copper cost & labor. Limitations on certain devices.


But it's the system we have and it's far too late in the game to change it. 

The drawbacks to 240 volts L-G is much more fault current and shock hazard, just like our 277 volt system.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Spark Master said:


> I was in Europe. All 220 volts. The 220 volt hair dryers are nice. Thin coil cords, lighter weight. Even kitchen appliances like Microwaves, low draw items.
> 
> The USA 120volt design leaves a lot to be desired. Increased copper cost & labor. Limitations on certain devices.


Europe.:laughing:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MTW said:


> The drawbacks to 240 volts L-G is much more fault current and shock hazard, just like our 277 volt system.



A risk mitigated by the fact that just about everything over there is protected by RCDs (similar to GFCI but mechanical rather than electronic).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B-Nabs said:


> A risk mitigated by the fact that just about everything over there is protected by RCDs (similar to GFCI but mechanical rather than electronic).


True, I had not thought of that. 

Do they require RCD's in continental Europe like they do in the UK?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

B-Nabs said:


> A risk mitigated by the fact that just about everything over there is protected by RCDs (similar to GFCI but mechanical rather than electronic)....




RCD's similar to GFCI but Mechanical rather then Electronic ?

How are they Mechanical , I have never seen one ?



Pete


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MTW said:


> True, I had not thought of that.
> 
> Do they require RCD's in continental Europe like they do in the UK?


In most places, I believe they do. Of course there are older installations that do not have them.



pete87 said:


> RCD's similar to GFCI but Mechanical rather then Electronic ?
> 
> How are they Mechanical , I have never seen one ?
> 
> Pete


As far as I understand it they employ a differential current transformer and a relay to break the circuit if there is a nonzero sum of currents through said current transformer. @meadow seems to know a great deal about these things and has talked about them at length, perhaps he can weigh in if he is so inclined.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

MTW said:


> But it's the system we have and it's far too late in the game to change it.
> 
> The drawbacks to 240 volts L-G is much more fault current and shock hazard, just like our 277 volt system.


Just like the rest of the world thought we would adopt the metric system!
It was tried and not quite successful. We do use it in some practices. I had to learn the basics in apprentice school.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Maybe women could stop shaving their armpits, after all they do that in Europe.........

Maybe we could use outhouses like they have in France. Superior!

British dental care is fantastic!

Love them Italian cobblestone roads!

Burka's could be cool. 

Europe is trendy.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> But it's the system we have and it's far too late in the game to change it.
> 
> The drawbacks to 240 volts L-G is much more fault current and shock hazard, just like our 277 volt system.


I disagree that fault current would automatically be higher, other factors come into play. For example a fault on a 240 volt transformer would automatically be lower then a 120 volt unit or line-neutral of a 120/240 volt unit for the same KVA rating. (see pic from this link)

http://www.alabamapower.com/busines...df/A E Fault Currents Tables FINAL 8 2003.pdf

I do agree that 240 L-G is far more dangerous. If we do ever convert I think we should keep the center tap design for residential both of safety and the fact its all ready there making conversion a breeze. 






MTW said:


> True, I had not thought of that.
> 
> Do they require RCD's in continental Europe like they do in the UK?



Everywhere even in most countries outside of Europe, it would be very rare not to find them in new construction being code almost everywhere outside of North America. Even 100 volt Japan uses RCDs.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

pete87 said:


> RCD's similar to GFCI but Mechanical rather then Electronic ?
> 
> How are they Mechanical , I have never seen one ?
> 
> ...



They operate via toroidal coil thats wired to a solenoid. Currents normally cancel, but an imbalance causes the coil to act like a transformer sending power to the solenoid which then trips the mechanism opening the contacts. Way more reliable then electronics. 

Old RCD tear down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln9Yd6sN0eg

Very old main breaker RCD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dWWJOBftFA


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

B-Nabs said:


> In most places, I believe they do. Of course there are older installations that do not have them.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I understand it they employ a differential current transformer and a relay to break the circuit if there is a nonzero sum of currents through said current transformer. @*meadow* seems to know a great deal about these things and has talked about them at length, perhaps he can weigh in if he is so inclined.


You are correct, they work like an dial meter, everything is electromechanical relying on current cancellation and current induction. When protecting general use circuits they are required to be 30ma just like our GFCIs are required to be 5ma. 

Older installs don't have them but they are now required everywhere due to the shock and fire protection offered. We should have taken them over AFCIs considering an AFCI is just a glorified GFCI. Electricians have the option of having each individual circuit on an RCD of using a sub-main approach where one RCD cover several circuits to save cost. 

Sub main system:

http://www.softwareresourcemanning.com/InsideCU.jpg

RCBO (breaker+plus RCD)

https://www.google.com/search?q=ins...h10IA3J#tbm=isch&q=rcbo&imgrc=l3k1DNu7Ai964M:










macmikeman said:


> Maybe women could stop shaving their armpits, after all they do that in Europe.........
> 
> Maybe we could use outhouses like they have in France. Superior!
> 
> ...



No thanks :laughing: But when it comes to electrical they did manage to produce a Lamborghini. :thumbsup:


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