# Older Home: Exterior conduit to deliver Romex to upper levels



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If the conduit is outside, it ain't legal. Either use UF, convert to THWN, or find an interior chase such as the stink stack or a heat run to follow.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

480sparky said:


> If the conduit is outside, it ain't legal. Either use UF, convert to THWN, or find an interior chase such as the stink stack or a heat run to follow.


I didn't read that as romex in the conduit - I assumed they made a transition. It would be miserable anyway. 

If it's the pipe looks OK, I think it's a real good way to go. Hopefully there's some spot where it isn't too obtrusive, maybe next to a rain gutter, or near the service mast.


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## CGW (Oct 14, 2014)

splatz said:


> I didn't read that as romex in the conduit - I assumed they made a transition. It would be miserable anyway.
> 
> If it's the pipe looks OK, I think it's a real good way to go. Hopefully there's some spot where it isn't too obtrusive, maybe next to a rain gutter, or near the service mast.


I honestly don't remember if we saw what was actually coming up through the conduit. 

They ran the conduit in the corner where the brick chimney met the siding on the non-street side of the house (There were two chimneys, this came up both sides of the house). They color matched it well. No one thought anything until we opened the boxes. 

Is this legal if there was a transition?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

CGW said:


> Is this legal if there was a transition?


It would be legal as 480 pointed out but not romex (NM Cable) inside an exterior raceway.

Pete


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

As long as the conduit and fittings are OK for outdoors, I think it's fine. 

I missed that they made *multiple* conduit runs - that seems weird, maybe they did one per NM. I'd want one big conduit, sized with room to grow.


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## CGW (Oct 14, 2014)

splatz said:


> As long as the conduit and fittings are OK for outdoors, I think it's fine.
> 
> I missed that they made *multiple* conduit runs - that seems weird, maybe they did one per NM. I'd want one big conduit, sized with room to grow.


I want to say there were 2 per side feeding 3 bedrooms, etc. I agree, I would've used a single, larger conduit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NM can be brought outside to a WP box, then changed to a different wiring method (UF, THWN) to run through the conduit, then back to NM in another WP box.

NM can be in a WP box, but not in the raceway.




splatz said:


> .....I missed that they made *multiple* conduit runs - that seems weird, maybe they did one per NM. I'd want one big conduit, sized with room to grow.


You'll run into derating issues fairly quickly.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

480sparky said:


> NM can be brought outside to a WP box, then changed to a different wiring method (UF, THWN) to run through the conduit, then back to NM in another WP box.
> 
> NM can be in a WP box, but not in the raceway.
> 
> ...


Maybe it would be better to run the outside conduit to feed a subpanel if the attic is accessible.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

splatz said:


> Maybe it would be better to run the outside conduit to feed a subpanel if the attic is accessible.


I'd consider it only if there's a permanent set of stairs to the attic. If the stairs are the pull-down type, or if there's just a hatch, no way would I put breakers in the attic. That's just me.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> If the stairs are the pull-down type, or if there's just a hatch, no way would I put breakers in the attic. That's just me.


It's also not legal. Overcurrent devices must be readily accessible per 240.24


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Barjack said:


> It's also not legal. Overcurrent devices must be readily accessible per 240.24


What's wrong with permanent stairs? That makes the attic readily accessible.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> What's wrong with permanent stairs? That makes the attic readily accessible.


I know. I quoted the second part of what you said.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

480sparky said:


> *NM can be brought outside to a WP box*, then changed to a different wiring method (UF, THWN) to run through the conduit, then back to NM in another WP box.
> 
> NM can be in a WP box, but not in the raceway.
> 
> ...


...I know its splitting hairs, but once the NM breaks the exterior siding plane its considered outside, and illegal. Bring outside wiring inside, than make transition to NM.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

What it says is that any raceway installed outside and above grade is a wet location. 

An enclosure is not a raceway. 


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

334.12(B)(4) NM shall not be used in wet or damp locations


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

360max said:


> 334.12(B)(4) NM shall not be used in wet or damp locations




Enclosures and boxes are not raceways. The interior of a 3R rated panel or box is not a wet location.

Think about all those 3R meter/main panels sitting on the outside of homes, with yards of NM running into them. Are the insides of those panels 'wet locations'? If so, where do I buy wet-location-rated breakers?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

This is the new service on a K&T rewire we recently completed and recently passed inspection. NM enters the box below the panel from the crawl space under the house, then transitions to THWN-2 at the box to the panel. 

Yes, those two LFNMC's are less than 24". 


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Barjack said:


> This is the new service on a K&T rewire we recently completed and recently passed inspection. NM enters the box below the panel from the crawl space under the house, then transitions to THWN-2 at the box to the panel.
> 
> Yes, those two LFNMC's are less than 24".
> 
> ...


Heeey
What's that fancy looking ground thing under the meter can?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Heeey
> 
> What's that fancy looking ground thing under the meter can?



Intersystem bonding terminal. I like the look of these over the wire type. Much cleaner. 


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Barjack said:


> This is the new service on a K&T rewire we recently completed and recently passed inspection. NM enters the box below the panel from the crawl space under the house, then transitions to THWN-2 at the box to the panel.
> 
> Yes, those two LFNMC's are less than 24".
> 
> ...


Personally, I'd never put a plastic box that low to the ground. It would be busted up by lawn mowers. *


*Disclaimer: I am not demanding NO ONE should ever do this. I am not implying this should never be done. You are free to do as you wish. This is_ just my personal judgement about the installation_. I am also NOT saying EVERY box installed like this WILL be damaged. It well could last for years, decades even. I am not calling you a hack. In no way, shape or form am I saying that this is a sub-standard installation. It complies with the NEC, I will readily admit that. I'm not going to come over to your job site, hold a gun to your head and demand you do something different. It's your job, so you're free to do as you see fit (so long as _you_ are happy, the _customer_ is happy, and the _inspector_ is happy). No skin off my nose. I will sleep well tonight no matter what happens to this box. I really don't care whether it lasts or not, but this is simply due to the fact that my name is not on the installation. It's just that I would rather not have to deal with the possibility that I would have to come back in 3 weeks to replace the box, or somehow redesign the installation to prevent mowers from ripping PVC boxes off the side of the customer's house. All I'm trying to say is sometimes (not always, sometimes!) we need to go that 'extra mile' and exceed the minimum standards as set forth in the various building codes, of which the NEC is but one of many. Yes, it may be a little more work, and cost a little more money. But in the long run, it may be worth it both in pride in your work as well as having a happy customer. I pen this disclaimer due to the simple reason as I am one who can be labelled, "Been there, done that." So this is merely advice. It's not a mandate. Not a requirement. Not a demand. Nor is it a command. Or an order. Or stipulation. It is merely advice based on my experience, and should be taken only as such. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included. Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Assembly required. Please talk to your health care provider before taking any medication. Chances of winning a prize: zero. Limit one per customer. This disclaimer may contain peanuts or peanut products.


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## EC2253 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do you get baby alligators crawling through those holes in the foundation?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Why take multiple circuits upstairs in the first place? I would have run some ser cable from the panel to upstairs and installed another panel using that. 

It scares me to think there are idiots out there doing stupid stuff like this , but I run across it a lot. The same guys cannot complete an overhead service without using some unistrut to ruin all the looks of every house they get near to. Comes down to experience and training and sadly not enough of that gets distributed lately.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

CGW said:


> We were talking in another thread and it reminded me of this..and it's something I've always been curious about but have never remembered to ask about.. I once did some work in an older home from the early 1900's. Instead of tearing out all the walls someone ran multiple feeds of conduit outside from the basement level to deliver modern rolex to the upper levels. They drilled through the wall and distributed romex throughout the upstairs. They seemed to have used proper materials and installed them correctly. Just curious about the overall idea. Anyone ever see this? And how legal was it?


How old was the install that you saw? Was it TW conduit or Ridged.

I believe that until the 50's, Romex in pipe was not disallowed. 

480, is that correct?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> How old was the install that you saw? Was it TW conduit or Ridged.
> 
> I believe that until the 50's, Romex in pipe was not disallowed.
> 
> 480, is that correct?



NM is allowed to be installed in raceways still today.


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## CGW (Oct 14, 2014)

Wirenuting said:


> How old was the install that you saw? Was it TW conduit or Ridged.
> 
> I believe that until the 50's, Romex in pipe was not disallowed.
> 
> 480, is that correct?



The house was built in the 1910's but I couldn't say when this modification was done. It's been a few years since I was there, but I believe it was Rigid.

Edit: now that I think about it, it might've been PVC.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Personally, I'd never put a plastic box that low to the ground. It would be busted up by lawn mowers.


It was my original intention to cut out the wall behind the panel on the inside of the house, and run all branch circuits into the back of the panel. 

That idea got shot down. Home owner wanted original lathe and plaster walls and ceilings preserved as much as possible. We finished the job with minimal damage to the inside. Home owner was made aware of the drawbacks of this design and accepted it anyway.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Barjack said:


> It was my original intention to cut out the wall behind the panel on the inside of the house, and run all branch circuits into the back of the panel.
> 
> That idea got shot down. Home owner wanted original lathe and plaster walls and ceilings preserved as much as possible. We finished the job with minimal damage to the inside. Home owner was made aware of the drawbacks of this design and accepted it anyway.



Big mistake. Anytime I just don't feel like complying with some homeowner stupid request, I just pull the ol' Sorry , it's not allowed in the code book....................


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Big mistake. Anytime I just don't feel like complying with some homeowner stupid request, I just pull the ol' Sorry , it's not allowed in the code book....................



I think if the client wants something done in a specific way, they're willing to pay for it, and I can do it and meet code, then I'm obliged to comply with their wishes. 


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Barjack said:


> I think if the client wants something done in a specific way, they're willing to pay for it, and I can do it and meet code, then I'm more than happy to take their money.


Fify.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Fify.



What part of 



> …they're willing to pay for it…


don't you understand?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Barjack said:


> What part of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What part of



> I'm more than happy to take their money


don't you understand?


Sent from my moderately-smart phone.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I just do it the better easier code complaint way and still take their money.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

This is a fun game. 


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## Stickshaker (Jun 29, 2012)

Barjack said:


> This is the new service on a K&T rewire we recently completed and recently passed inspection. NM enters the box below the panel from the crawl space under the house, then transitions to THWN-2 at the box to the panel.
> 
> Yes, those two LFNMC's are less than 24".
> 
> ...


 I'm curious why you used Carflex instead of #80?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Stickshaker said:


> I'm curious why you used Carflex instead of #80?



Because apparently I'm a hack who swindles his clients with substandard installations.


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## hooch (Sep 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> NM can be brought outside to a WP box, then changed to a different wiring method (UF, THWN) to run through the conduit, then back to NM in another WP box.
> 
> NM can be in a WP box, but not in the raceway.
> 
> ...


code please


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Exterior conduit for resi branch circuits is very common here for "triple deckers" for A/C outlets on a budget. But they're also occasionally used for budget conscious customers who may have bricked in/ cemented fire stops at the base of the wall (very common here) and don't care about a single conduit on the side of the house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> Because apparently I'm a hack who swindles his clients with substandard installations.


You do electrical work in Florida so you're a hack by default. Anything beyond that is gravy.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Intersystem bonding terminal. I like the look of these over the wire type. Much cleaner.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got a link? Also, isn't the bare ground #4. Why the conduit, or is it #6.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Why take multiple circuits upstairs in the first place? I would have run some ser cable from the panel to upstairs and installed another panel using that.
> 
> It scares me to think there are idiots out there doing stupid stuff like this , but I run across it a lot. The same guys cannot complete an overhead service without using some unistrut to ruin all the looks of every house they get near to. Comes down to experience and training and sadly not enough of that gets distributed lately.


That reminds me. Does anyone remember a few years back some one posted a picture of a service on a house and they used probably a 100 feet of unistrut?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You are going to give chicken a complex.


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## Bringerofcurrents (Dec 19, 2015)

What I like to do is find a chimney and run like a 1 inch emt from basement to attic right next to the chimney pull thhn j box on each end run like 5 or 6 circuits romex from j boxes to breaker panel and 2nd story loads.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

backstay said:


> Got a link? Also, isn't the bare ground #4. Why the conduit, or is it #6.












Home Depot carries it. 

It is bare #4. I just like the look of the conduit as opposed to the other style.


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

Barjack said:


> Intersystem bonding terminal. I like the look of these over the wire type. Much cleaner.


That's a really clean looking ground install. :thumbsup: I like it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

hooch said:


> code please


Code for what? NM in an exterior raceway?

334.12(B)(4) and 300.9.

There is no Code that disallows NM in an exterior ('wet location') box.


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