# Wood frame home EMT rough



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I think many will like theses pictures, I can't tell you much about them. They were sent to me to post on another forum some years ago.


The link brings up a slide show of 13 pictures.

http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/iwire_bucket/Wood Frame with EMT/?albumview=slideshow


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I can appreciate the work, but that seems like a total waste of time to me.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Nice but a waste. Wood framing, plastic boxes and NM just go together.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

What are the blue/white/yellow wires that are running free for?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I think piping a wood-frame dwelling would be fun.:thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks nice. I enjoy piping the world. It might take a little longer, but it makes later work easier. 
Thanks for the shots.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Looks real nice. 50 or 60 years from now the owner is beginning to have trouble with the wiring he will thank you when all he has to do is pull wire out and pull wire in.
All wiring should be in some kind of raceway. 

Good job


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## pugz134 (Nov 8, 2010)

Look at that. A properly piped house. No spaghetti in sight. Looks good. The loose wires in the rings are probably phone, data, cable.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pugz134 said:


> Look at that. A properly piped house.


So as long as it is pipe we can ignore the NEC violations?


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## wirenut71 (Dec 5, 2010)

I have never piped a house, but we did pipe some college dorms once. 
Nice pictures, thanks


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Looks real nice. 50 or 60 years from now the owner is beginning to have trouble with the wiring he will thank you when all he has to do is pull wire out and pull wire in.
> All wiring should be in some kind of raceway.
> 
> Good job


Except the wires that aren't in a raceway.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

backstay said:


> Except the wires that aren't in a raceway.


The tv, phone, ect isn't required to be in pipe. But around here we stub a few 3/4 from above the panel to the attic for later use. One of which we run the LV wires. The worst thing to redo is the ceiling speaker wires.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

I like the looks of that house. The more I think about it, if I ever get a chance to build another house, I am going to to slab everything. The only conduit that will go up will be switch legs.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Nice but a waste. Wood framing, plastic boxes and NM just go together.


Not in the Chicago area. What you see in the pictures is the code there.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Not in the Chicago area. What you see in the pictures is the code there.


Because they're ********.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I got the once in a lifetime opportunity to knock down my house and build a new one. I wanted to do it all in pipe because I would probably never get the chance to do it otherwise. Well in-between doing all the other work I did not have the time, so romex and plastic boxes it is. I just ran very little romex in the basement. All homeruns came out right above the panel.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I think houses and pipe has more to do with union influence rather than safety....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I think piping a wood-frame dwelling would be fun.:thumbsup:


You must have too much time on your hands.. :no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

pugz134 said:


> Look at that. A properly piped house. No spaghetti in sight. Looks good.


After the drywall is installed what do you see besides a bill for more than double the labor?


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Greg said:


> I like the looks of that house. The more I think about it, if I ever get a chance to build another house, I am going to to slab everything. The only conduit that will go up will be switch legs.


I didn't understand trying to slab a house until I noticed that you are in FL.

I guess most houses down there don't have basements and are built on a slab.

Up here in New England almost all of the houses have basements.

I think it would be a nice challenge to pipe a house, but those guys in IL do it all the time.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Complete waste of time!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> After the drywall is installed what do you see besides a bill for more than double the labor?



And double the profit...:thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> And double the profit...:thumbup:


Since when does double the labor equal double the profit.. it should.. but doesn't in the real world..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> Since when does double the labor equal double the profit.. it should.. but doesn't in the real world..


True .

But i'll bet the guys in Chicago make a better profit because it is harder to find guys that can run pipe well so when they get a good crew together they should be able to do very well..IMO..:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> You must have too much time on your hands.. :no:



I'm not drawing maps every day. :whistling2:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I suspect the cost of living is higher in Chicago than in many parts of the country. It may be a more expensive way to do it, but I bet if that was the only way we were allowed to do it here most of us would get the hang of it.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

It is a higher cost area. I don't bust bungalows for a living, but running pipe gets to be second nature when you do it all the time. You only see the word in 360 deg bends. 
I would find myself scratching my head if I had to rope a house tomorrow. 

Besides, there is a bigger profit for a builder who pipes a house. They lean on the "extra safety factor" of conduit. People are scared of the fire concept.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Greg said:


> I like the looks of that house. The more I think about it, if I ever get a chance to build another house, I am going to to slab everything. The only conduit that will go up will be switch legs.


When I piped condos and houses in South Florida we put most all the conduit in the slab. This helped with cost and made it real easy to finish up the rough.
We had a portaband on a hand truck. It would be adjusted for receptacle height and roll it around to cut off all the stubs. Then someone would follow reaming the cuts and mounting boxes. Wire pullers following close behind.
I like pipe too. 

Most anyone that does not like conduit and always pushes NM is most likely unable to bend conduit anyway.

NM has its place. In tight bidding competition for residential construction.


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## kevmanTA (Jul 20, 2010)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Looks real nice. 50 or 60 years from now the owner is beginning to have trouble with the wiring he will thank you when all he has to do is pull wire out and pull wire in.
> All wiring should be in some kind of raceway.
> 
> Good job


Haha never works like that..
Just worked on a building with some wires that went bad, on some 120V 400W metal halides.. The wires were so melted in, not even I could pull them out.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Man those pictures are awesome. I would love to pipe a house. I have no idea how I would do it, though.


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

i wouldn't even know how to rope a house correctly


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Not in the Chicago area. What you see in the pictures is the code there.


I know. Doesn't change the fact it's a waste and a solution looking for a problem.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> You must have too much time on your hands.. :no:


I agree.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

glad all i do is use pipe. hell, even low volt has to be in pipe in chicago.


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## RKRider (Feb 7, 2010)

My house is piped. It did make it a lot easier to repull all the wire in it when I bought it last year :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Most anyone that does not like conduit and always pushes NM is most likely unable to bend conduit anyway.


I'm no commercial genius, but I can still run EMT with the best of them. Every wiring method has a place based on time and budget. Your statement is dumb.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The pipe guys may pick up the nm stuff quicker than I might get the piping, but if I needed to, I would get it, and do it well.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> The pipe guys may pick up the nm stuff quicker than I might get the piping, but if I needed to, I would get it, and do it well.


It is not rocket science to drill a bunch of holes from point A to point B..

I never turn the drill off when I am running a string.. THAT might take them some time to "get"..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I'm no commercial genius, but I can still run EMT with the best of them. Every wiring method has a place based on time and budget. Your statement is dumb.


Yours is dumber he has a good point IMO...


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yours is dumber he has a good point IMO...


No, he doesn't have a good point. 

I'm happy to use whatever methods suits the job, but I would much rather use cable any time I can. It's not because I have a dislike for EMT, it's because I like getting work done quickly and cost effectively.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

mikeh32 said:


> glad all i do is use pipe. hell, even low volt has to be in pipe in chicago.


So if someone wants to replace the ugly 2x4 wrap in their kitchen (floor above) with a few recess cans, you have to gut the kitchen ceiling?

I'd bet that there is some mc/nm cable in every ec's van in Chicago.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> piping





Wirenuting said:


> piping





BBQ said:


> pipe





wirenut71 said:


> piped





captkirk said:


> pipe





Wirenuting said:


> pipes
> I like pipe too.





Vintage Sounds said:


> pipe





mikeh32 said:


> pipe.





RKRider said:


> piped.





nrp3 said:


> pipe


When did this become a plumbing Forum?


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> So if someone wants to replace the ugly 2x4 wrap in their kitchen (floor above) with a few recess cans, you have to gut the kitchen ceiling?
> 
> I'd bet that there is some mc/nm cable in every ec's van in Chicago.


idk, im just a c card


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> No, he doesn't have a good point.
> 
> I'm happy to use whatever methods suits the job, but I would much rather use cable any time I can. It's not because I have a dislike for EMT, it's because I like getting work done .





> quickly and cost effectively


Thats right the faster the better :blink:

Less hours = less profit

Cheaper wiring methods = less profit on mark up

Anyone can do a 200amp service in cable for $999.00

But can you sell the same service in pipe and copper and get $2500.??:whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats right the faster the better :blink:
> 
> Less hours = less profit
> 
> Cheaper wiring methods = less profit on mark up


Not every job is T&M. 



> Anyone can do a 200amp service in cable for $999.00
> 
> But can you sell the same service in pipe and copper and get $2500.??:whistling2:


If you think a 200 amp service in cable goes for $999, you are nuts. :wacko:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> When did this become a plumbing Forum?


You tell me:


Chris Kennedy said:


> Test successful! Nice well thought out pipe job.


 :whistling2: :thumbsup:
-John


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris Kennedy said:


> When did this become a plumbing Forum?


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Not every job is T&M.
> 
> 
> 
> If you think a 200 amp service in cable goes for $999, you are nuts. :wacko:



I have seen ads for less then that...how they do it IDK you are the cable expert...:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Not every job is T&M.


All my jobs are grand total only No T&M...


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

mikeh32 said:


> idk, im just a c card


Tell the truth.

You've installed a few mc whips, haven't you?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> All my jobs are grand total only No T&M...



So when you give a price for a job, this doesn't make sense:



HARRY304E said:


> Thats right the faster the better :blink:
> 
> Less hours = less profit
> 
> Cheaper wiring methods = less profit on mark up


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Peter D said:


> So when you give a price for a job, this doesn't make sense:


Quit picking on Harry.:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> Quit picking on Harry.:laughing:


Now that B4T and I are friends, Harry is my new nemesis. :thumbsup:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I think its very cool and would think about doing it myself if I ever built myself a house.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Now that B4T and I are friends, Harry is my new nemesis. :thumbsup:


Harry is right around the corner from you..


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I think houses and pipe has more to do with union influence rather than safety....


Full time Bovine Scatologist.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Now that B4T and I are friends, Harry is my new nemesis. :thumbsup:


Thats right and don't you forget it...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> So when you give a price for a job, this doesn't make sense:



Why not....:blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats right and don't you forget it...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Hmmmm does that one play with the white fuzzy thing in your avatar picture? :laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

All of the houses here in Dade County were piped until the early 70s. The guys used to brag about piping, including the service and splices made, three bungalows in two days.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Why not....:blink:


Because if you give a price for a competitive bid job, the objective is to complete it with the cheapest material possible in the least amount of time, contrary to what you posted earlier.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats right and don't you forget it...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


When I used to do service calls, those dogs were the most friendly of any dog except maybe a Lab.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

How about a cabled svc for around 2g?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Hmmmm does that one play with the white fuzzy thing in your avatar picture? :laughing:


The white fuzzy thing put him in the hospital :laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Because if you give a price for a competitive bid job, the objective is to complete it with the cheapest material possible in the least amount of time, contrary to what you posted earlier.


No.

That is your objective not mine..


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No.
> 
> That is your objective not mine..


It's a BID, Harry.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> The white fuzzy thing put him in the hospital :laughing::laughing:


My wife was outside with our 3# Yorkie years ago and a guy from down the block was walking his mastiff. He started kidding my wife about the tiny dog. The mastiff stuck his nose to close to my Yorkie and she bit him a good one on the nose. The mastiff went screaming down the street. My wife laughed and told him "I hope my tiny dog didn't hurt your big scary dig".. 

Anyway, keeping on topic, I'm glad I don't have to bid jobs or worry about cost. You all foot my bill. 
But alot of contractors I see seem to cut corners and do things "good enough".


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

I haven't worked resi since before I joined the Navy but back then, seems like all the ECs here in Fl were absolutely ******** over smurf tubing (ENT). Don't know how it goes now days but that stuff just seems to be a waste....:whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jefft110 said:


> It's a BID, Harry.


Yeah so??:blink:

When i go bid a job i know before i leave if i have the job or not it is all about selling the job..


If i leave without the go ahead then i will not get the job because they are looking for the lowest price and i don't want those job's 

Thanks any how...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I know. Doesn't change the fact it's a waste and a solution looking for a problem.


Maybe not. The fire cause and origin stats for Chicago show that their fires of electrical origin are much less than the national average. Only 25% of the national average. Yes there could be a lot of reasons for this, including better trained fire investigators, but I would expect the metal conduit rule is part of it.
Because of the metal conduit rule, the Chicago code does not included AFCIs. They don't see the need with the conduit providing the protection.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

wirenut71 said:


> I have never piped a house, but we did pipe some college dorms once.
> Nice pictures, thanks


 
I laid some pipe in a college dorm.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I laid some pipe in a college dorm.


What was his name?


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Maybe not. The fire cause and origin stats for Chicago show that their fires of electrical origin are much less than the national average. Only 25% of the national average.
> ...
> Because of the metal conduit rule, the Chicago code does not included AFCIs. They don't see the need with the conduit providing the protection.


Curious as to the source of your stats. I'm sure you're correct,
just wondering where they're from.

It would be interesting to compare #'s
A - Pipe without AFCIs
B - Romex with AFCIs
-----------------------------
Update: after posting the above, I went and looked at some data posted by you and others over
at MH:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/126864-Area-with-the-lowest-electrical-fires?
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/OS.electrical.pdf
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa_325.pdf

Based on the fact that so many electrical fires originated from sources other than branch
circuit wiring, e.g. extension cords and appliances, as well as the fact that there
are large states including California, Minnesota and Massachusetts that have 
overall (all causes, including non-electrical) fire/death rates than Illinois, my swag
would be that metal conduit does little to nothing to decrease overall risk of
fire, e.g. in residential settings as compared to say AFCI's, which might help
with some of the extension cord or appliance issues. Pipe will do nothing
about arcing in a bad appliance or extension cord. One of the links did
not work, although I did see that a former Chief Electrical Inspector for
Chicago made the claim:


> In Chicago for the past 50 plus years 100% of legally constructed dwelling type structures have used metal raceway and metal boxes as the wiring method for the fixed wiring in dwellings. I have attached substantiation in the form of NIFRS Data that compares Chicago vs National residential electrical fires. The data shows that Chicago, which uses metal raceway exclusively for dwelling occupancies, has (4) times fewer residential electrical fires as a percentage of total residential fires, than found nationally. Moreover, there are nearly (3) times fewer fires caused by the distribution, which includes the fixed or installed wiring.


Even if true, if one deconstructs what he is actually saying, i.e. what % of fires are caused
by electrical, and then only dealing with "distribution" (i.e. not appliances etc)
it would not make me feel much safer at all if my house had pipe instead of Romex.

I like pipe, but it looks to me like the "waste of time" argument is pretty close to the mark.

Thanks for providing the information for this interesting discussion -- there's still more
that I don't know about the subject than I do know, but I feel like I learned something
from you.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> When I piped condos and houses in South Florida we put most all the conduit in the slab. This helped with cost and made it real easy to finish up the rough.
> We had a portaband on a hand truck. It would be adjusted for receptacle height and roll it around to cut off all the stubs. Then someone would follow reaming the cuts and mounting boxes. Wire pullers following close behind.
> I like pipe too.
> 
> ...


 
I don't bend much emt. I just don't get the chance to very often. It is a matter of practice.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think it would raise all of the skill sets for all electricians if houses were piped and eliminate a considerable amount of handyman work. The price would be a drop in the bucket compared to what the finished square foot of a house costs.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I think it would raise all of the skill sets for all electricians if houses were piped and eliminate a considerable amount of handyman work. The price would be a drop in the bucket compared to what the finished square foot of a house costs.


And home buyers should be happy to pay the extra just because it pleases you.

Sometimes your union inner self shows through.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Anyone got a guess for the price difference, 20-30%?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Anyone got a guess for the price difference, 20-30%?


The guys from Chicago will say it costs very little more and is just as fast.:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Maybe not. The fire cause and origin stats for Chicago show that their fires of electrical origin are much less than the national average. Only 25% of the national average. Yes there could be a lot of reasons for this, including better trained fire investigators, but I would expect the metal conduit rule is part of it.
> Because of the metal conduit rule, the Chicago code does not included AFCIs. They don't see the need with the conduit providing the protection.


I would look closer at the fact since everything is in pipe.. the HO, handy men, and weekend warriors don't do much electrical work because the pipe puts the work out of their league..

How many hack jobs have you seen using pipe compared to using NM and plastic boxes??

It is never the wiring method that causes the fire, but the person doing the work.. IMO

I'm trying to stop the exposed NM guys from having a new banner..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> It is never the wiring method that causes the fire, but the person doing the work.. IMO


We're going to have to stop agreeing like this. It's getting out of hand.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> We're going to have to stop agreeing like this. It's getting out of hand.


I just added another line to that..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> We're going to have to stop agreeing like this.














:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :whistling2:


:no:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Those Chicago guys need to learn how to install plaster rings the right way.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Wow! I totally forgot about that! :laughing:
I can't tell you how many times I had to go back and flip them horizontal before the drywall went up... I mean sheetrock:laughing:


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> Anyone got a guess for the price difference, 20-30%?


Less. On the one house I did in romex the alternate for conduit was $800. That was about 10 years ago.

The house was 11k.

If conduit is what you know, it is what you do faster. I could probabily pipe a house faster than I could rope it because I do not use Romex all that often. I live in a county that allows romex, my house is romex. I do not live in fear of it burning down.

From a business perspective, I prefer conduit, in new construction, because it is "what I grew up on".

For the shops that do a lot of romex work, I have heard conduit adds about 8 hours to the job for a 2500 - 3000 sq/ft house. Bungalow busting is not where you want to be....


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> ...How many hack jobs have you seen using pipe compared to using NM and plastic boxes...?


 If the guys are gonna hack to begin with why would they even try it with pipe? Someone was saying you can still by NM in Chicago big-box stores.

-John


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

B4T said:


> I would look closer at the fact since everything is in pipe.. the HO, handy men, and weekend warriors don't do much electrical work because the pipe puts the work out of their league..
> 
> How many hack jobs have you seen using pipe compared to using NM and plastic boxes??
> 
> ...


You can hack conduit. That does not stop anybody. Plus in areas where conduit is required, the depot still sells romex and plastic boxes.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

There is no way in this world that EMT is faster or cheaper than romex. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would guarantee that a new-house romex crew would smoke a new-house EMT crew hands down any day of the week.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Peter D said:


> There is no way in this world that EMT is faster or cheaper than romex. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would guarantee that a new-house romex crew would smoke a new-house EMT crew hands down any day of the week.


Yup, most likely, but don't forget romex is not allowed in a lot of this area, so the conduit crew would win.

Conduit makes up a lot of time on the home runs.

It is like anything, you need a system.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Peter D said:


> There is no way in this world that EMT is faster or cheaper than romex. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would guarantee that a new-house romex crew would smoke a new-house EMT crew hands down any day of the week.


Yup, most likely, but don't forget romex is not allowed in a lot of this area, so the conduit crew would win.

Conduit makes up a lot of time on the home runs.

It is like anything, you need a system.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I worked with a guy from Chicago for a short while. We compared rough in times between pipe and romex from passed experiences and it did seam a-little unbelievable that they were so close. I asked about all the tricks and after talking a while it sure seemed possible. You have to have a system, just like here. You get the right crew together and you can knock it out.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mdfriday said:


> Yup, most likely, but don't forget romex is not allowed in a lot of this area, so the conduit crew would win.
> 
> Conduit makes up a lot of time on the home runs.
> 
> It is like anything, you need a system.


We are installing the conductors same time as the raceway.. right there it saves half the time..

I can drill out a complete room and if my holes are off half an inches.. it doesn't matter..

My plastic boxes are a complete unit.. nothing to plan for entrance or exit.. 

I can drill across a ceiling and run a wire to a switch in less than (10) minutes..

There is no way a Chicago conduit expert can compete with that..


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Pete if I did not see it with my own eyes I would agree with you. There is a slight difference but not what you are thinking. I was blown away when I saw it. For 12 years that was all I ever knew was Romex. Now 14 more have past and I'm a believer in the pipe and metal boxes.

The HD by me sell plastic boxes and romex. The plastic boxes are up high so you will have to ask for them to be taken down. The romex is right there on the shelf. 

The pricing for new houses in pipe is not that much higher than romex.
here are a few #'s from another contractor who says these are the competitive rates.

NEW WORK wide open brand new house.

200a service 1800

Piped & trimmed
15a receptacles 42
single pole switch 42
3 ways 46
6" can w/ baffle trim 75
smokes 90
Ceiling fan reinforced box w/ switch and blank cover 95


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> There is no way in this world that EMT is faster or cheaper than romex. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would guarantee that a new-house romex crew would smoke a new-house EMT crew hands down any day of the week.




I agree .

But i'll bet you there is not that much of a time difference.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cabletie said:


> I worked with a guy from Chicago for a short while. We compared rough in times between pipe and romex from passed experiences and it did seam a-little unbelievable that they were so close. I asked about all the tricks and after talking a while it sure seemed possible. You have to have a system, just like here. You get the right crew together and you can knock it out.


Let me ask this, do they consider pulling the conductors in as part of the rough or do they consider that part of the trim out? 


I can't see anyway you can do two tasks faster than one task, 'Pipe & Pull' vs 'Pull'.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Let me ask this, do they consider pulling the conductors in as part of the rough or do they consider that part of the trim out?
> 
> 
> I can't see anyway you can do two tasks faster than one task, 'Pipe & Pull' vs 'Pull'.


 wires pulled is part of the rough and all grounding. from what I was told the inspectors want to see box fill


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cabletie said:


> wires pulled is part of the rough and all grounding. from what I was told the inspectors want to see box fill


I was told there is no 'grounding' that they use the raceways.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

There is a big difference between what two people would call a rough. But when you start comparing apples to apples the two methods are probably not far off, but romex wins hand down.
The guy that did my hvac wanted a payment for a rough and all he did was cut holes in the floor and attic plywood, and put in minimal duct and no furnaces. He told me I can get the house closed up and the rest was on the finish. I gave him a little bit of money and told him to catch up with me on the finish.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I was told there is no 'grounding' that they use the raceways.


You are probably right and that is also another time saver. We will have to ask a Chicago guy that question.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'll bet you a nickle I can completely rewire a house that's piped with EMT faster than you can one that's roped in NM. :whistling2:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'll bet you a nickle I can completely rewire a house that's piped with EMT faster than you can one that's roped in NM. :whistling2:


I bet you can too and luckily people are having that done as often as they mow their lawns you will make a killing.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Here is a typical (5) gang switch layout for a standard house.. just drilling the holes above the box was a PIA.. these guys using nail guns shoot in more nails than needed..

If I hit a nail.. I can move the hole over.. running pipe.. what do you do?? :blink:

switch for outside light by door
switch for (2) motion sensors at end of house
switch for HPS for backyard
3-way switch for kitchen recessed lights
3-way switch for dining room light


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

can someone tell me what a romex house costs to wire and trim?

Over here your looking at 22-25K for a NEW 3600 sqft. home done in pipe from begin to end.

Rough with wire pulled 120-150 hrs. 3 men 1 week. Service has already been previously installed.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

B4T said:


> Here is a typical (5) gang switch layout for a standard house.. just drilling the holes above the box was a PIA.. these guys using nail guns shoot in more nails than needed..
> 
> If I hit a nail.. I can move the hole over.. running pipe.. what do you do?? :blink:
> 
> ...



Just a question...... Do you not have to install vapour barrier behind boxes mounted on outside walls?


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Conduit is your ground unless you use greenfield, wire pull is rough in, and yes you can re-pull a house faster if it was done in conduit. 
Of course, it's rare to ever need to re-pull unless the house is that old and the wire is cloth or was nicked because someone didn't ream the conduit. 
Worst part about a house in conduit is adding something years down the road. I'm adding a few receptacles today & a build-in ironing board for my wife. I could have roped it and been done quicker. But if I did that I would be stuck doing something else. 

What's quicker or better? Depends on were you are or what you know.

edit: I hear BX is not allowed in the city of Chicago. Never use it myself, but that's what I heard.
Oh ya, the added cost when I bought my new home 15 years ago was about 5%. I let my wife find the house she wanted with the stipulation that it was all in conduit. 
It's a builders selling point.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> Just a question...... Do you not have to install vapour barrier behind boxes mounted on outside walls?


No.. the vapor barrier is the front face of the insulation..

It never goes against the outside wall from what I have seen..

I'm not sure what these guys did with the foil.. but I will ask..


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> can someone tell me what a romex house costs to wire and trim?
> 
> Over here your looking at 22-25K for a NEW 3600 sqft. home done in pipe from begin to end.
> 
> Rough with wire pulled 120-150 hrs. 3 men 1 week. Service has already been previously installed.


If you use 25K and the 150 hours it seems that your man hour charge is low.:blink:


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Island Electric said:


> can someone tell me what a romex house costs to wire and trim?
> 
> Over here your looking at 22-25K for a NEW 3600 sqft. home done in pipe from begin to end.
> 
> Rough with wire pulled 120-150 hrs. 3 men 1 week. Service has already been previously installed.


 I have no idea of price but the time looks good. I used to do 2,800 sq ft home 3 guys 3 days all custom loaded with hihats and vaulted ceilings. That rough in time was with everything including hanging outside lights, porcelains in attic and basement, furnaces and condensers all wired on rough.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> .......edit: I hear BX is not allowed in the city of Chicago. Never use it myself, but that's what I heard.............


NM isn't allowed. I've never heard of BX being kicked to the curbs of ChiTown.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

B4T said:


> No.. the vapor barrier is the front face of the insulation..
> 
> It never goes against the outside wall from what I have seen..
> 
> I'm not sure what these guys did with the foil.. but I will ask..


 I meant directly behind the boxes, example ...wall...insulation...vapour barrier...box.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


HARRY304E said:



If you use 25K and the 150 hours it seems that your man hour charge is low.:blink:

Click to expand...

*Harry that did not include the time for the 200a service to be installed and trimming out the job. Probably another 50 hours. 

It is a mess out here. You have all kinds of eastern europeans working for 15 an hour. If your #'s are higher depending on the circumstances you will not get the job. I do not contract new work but my very close friend does and he gave me his real #'s and said he is being out bid lately by 10%. 

Again these are not my #'s from my company and I agree with you I would not want to go by these #'s. These are the numbers for NEW Residential jobs here in the suburbs of chi town. I would not call a 3600 sqft house a cookie cutter home either. It's just crazy here lately.

*


cabletie said:



 I have no idea of price but the time looks good. I used to do 2,800 sq ft home 3 guys 3 days all custom loaded with hihats and vaulted ceilings. That rough in time was with everything including hanging outside lights, porcelains in attic and basement, furnaces and condensers all wired on rough.

Click to expand...

*120-150 hours is just for the pipe and wires pulled. No trim at all yet at that point.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Yes the pipe is the ground. If you run a whip from a piece of pipe or out of a box you add a ground wire to that part of the run.

Here is some general info.
Nobody uses BX or MC. It is all pipe and 3/8"-1/2" greenfield but not in length over 6'. If you use greenfield you need a ground wire. 

For commercial apps. In plenum ceilings it's plenum rated boxes and compression fittings. In the walls we use set screw connectors. 
No more shooting up a piece of pencil wire in the pan deck. We use 1/4" threaded rod supported by caddy clips that are shot up with the Hilti. At a certain weight rating the pipe and or trapeze are anchored into the ceiling and up graded to 3/8"+ rod. Never more than 9 wires in a pipe in chicago no matter what size conduit.

Even in the high rises the phone/data/fire alarm are in conduit unless otherwise approved. That make for some awesome 4" pipe work and very crowded ceilings because the pipe fill is very low with that application. Certainly adds lot of work to the job. Sometime the F/A wires are in red pipe.

Now if you go further out from chi-town beyond the suburbs to what I call the country they use Romex, plastic pipe, ect. for their residential apps.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> In plenum ceilings it's plenum rated boxes


What the heck is a 'plenum rated box'?


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> What the heck is a 'plenum rated box'?


Glad that I'm not the only one that's confused. :001_huh:


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Peter D said:


> No, he doesn't have a good point.
> 
> I'm happy to use whatever methods suits the job, but I would much rather use cable any time I can. It's not because I have a dislike for EMT, it's because I like getting work done quickly and cost effectively.


If you took the time to read the second paragraph in my post I did give NM its credit. In residential, NM is king. It was not until the 70's that NM was even allowed in residential in South Florida. I grew up running pipe in residential (houses and multi family) and in commercial.

And I do stand by the statement regarding ability. If you were raised on rope, your going to be a roper, and prefer that method. If you were raised on pipe, your going to be a piper, and prefer that method. Both require a learning curve. So, it is safe to say that "most" ropers are not good benders and visa versa.

Yes, they both have their place.


----------



## pugz134 (Nov 8, 2010)

A plenum rated box is a 1900 box that has no screw holes in it. Also, the knockouts in the box are stressed for knocking out but the metal is continuous around the slug. The cover for a plenum rated box has a gasket on it. Plenum installs are compression fittings only. 

I know some of you think our electrical system in the Chicago area is overdone. I didn't develop the rules. Pipe is all we know around here. I just did a fire alarm system outside the city. We were allowed to run the cable in bridle rings but I piped it. It is just how it is done. Pipe is easy when you do it every day.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


BBQ said:



What the heck is a 'plenum rated box'?

Click to expand...

**


thegoldenboy said:



Glad that I'm not the only one that's confused. :001_huh:

Click to expand...

*
Maybe I should have used the word "Approved".

1900 box that is air tight. (No Holes) There are knock outs provided but are air tight. Gasketed cover blanks.
Same for 4 11/16" boxes. AKA 11B

Pull boxes and junction boxes will also have a gasketed cover.

Basically if you install a lay in fixture the fixture or any fixture for that matter will be plenum approved along with the plenum whip and box it goes into. (No GreenField) This is for plenum ceilings only. Not residential apps.


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Hmm, was not aware of that. Just did some work in a mech. room that was considered a plenum. Regular 1900 boxes, regular blank plates, regular steel set screw connectors, couplings, non-rated fixtures and MC cable. 

I'm going to hell.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


pugz134 said:



I know some of you think our electrical system in the Chicago area is overdone. I didn't develop the rules. Pipe is all we know around here. I just did a fire alarm system outside the city. We were allowed to run the cable in bridle rings but I piped it. It is just how it is done. Pipe is easy when you do it every day.

Click to expand...

*Thats the way it is. 
He is right on with this. Even if we do not have to run pipe 90% of the time we do it anyway because that is the way it is here. It's the quality job.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


thegoldenboy said:



Hmm, was not aware of that. Just did some work in a mech. room that was considered a plenum. Regular 1900 boxes, regular blank plates, regular steel set screw connectors, couplings, non-rated fixtures and MC cable. 

I'm going to hell.[/QUOTE

Click to expand...

*


thegoldenboy said:


> ]
> No.
> I believe it's a chicago code.
> your safe. no hell for you.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Never heard of those boxes either. Learn something every day.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Here is a typical (5) gang switch layout for a standard house.. just drilling the holes above the box was a PIA.. these guys using nail guns shoot in more nails than needed..
> 
> If I hit a nail.. I can move the hole over.. running pipe.. what do you do?? :blink:


What brand of insulated staples are those?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

So I understand this correctly - this rule for EMT only isn't just for the city of Chicago, but all of the surrounding suburbs as well?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What brand of insulated staples are those?


BRISCON.. and I use them even when not required too..

Just seems to give added protection to the NM and IMO is a no - brainer..


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> BRISCON.. and I use them even when not required too..
> 
> Just seems to give added protection to the NM and IMO is a no - brainer..


Cool. I didn't know you could get those on LI. That's all we have around here are those. They are made in your favorite place too - Massachusetts. :thumbsup:

Does your supply house have them or do you need to get them at HD?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Does your supply house have them or do you need to get them at HD?


Supply house.. I get the (5) gal. pail..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Supply house.. I get the (5) gal. pail..


:thumbup:

Do most electricians still use the uninsulated ones in your area?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Do most electricians still use the uninsulated ones in your area?


Yes.. from what I have seen.. 

The staples bend so easily and (3) out of (10) are in straight.. the rest are on a angle cutting into the plastic NM sheath..


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## lovethetrade (Apr 12, 2011)

So what happens when you want to add a new circuit somewhere else in the house? Do you cut the walls open to run pipe?:laughing:

Give it 10+ years it will just be a house full of pipe mixed with romex.:thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

lovethetrade said:


> So what happens when you want to add a new circuit somewhere else in the house? Do you cut the walls open to run pipe?:laughing:
> 
> Give it 10+ years it will just be a house full of pipe mixed with romex.:thumbsup:


I remember reading they are allowed to use FMC or BX cable for short lengths when existing work is involved.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

lovethetrade said:


> So what happens when you want to add a new circuit somewhere else in the house? Do you cut the walls open to run pipe?:laughing:
> 
> Give it 10+ years it will just be a house full of pipe mixed with romex.:thumbsup:


Compleatly gut the entire house...:whistling2::laughing:


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## 8V92TA (Jul 27, 2010)

It's hard to beat nice pipework, but seems a shame to cover it all up!

One of my ex-coworkers did a house with a homeowner who had more money than brains... Guy specifically wanted the entire house piped, but not with EMT. He insisted on rigid steel conduit everywhere. Apparently my friend was unable to convince the homeowner rigid was a waste of time and money, and he ended up doing the job as per customer request. Said it took him weeks to rough-in the house, which happened to be in the neighborhood of 5,000 sf. Fortunately, he didn't have to buy any special equipment, since he already had all the hydraulic benders and threaders from previous industrial jobs. At first I didn't believe him, because seriously, who would want to have a whole house full of rigid steel conduit... About a year after he told me the story, we had a service call at the same house. Sure enough, rigid steel everywhere. It looked great, but man that had to be a lot of work! I wish I would have had a camera with me! Pretty impressive.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As long as he got paid in line with the work that was done. If thats what the customer wanted and hes willing to pay to do it, its all good.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



So I understand this correctly - this rule for EMT only isn't just for the city of Chicago, but all of the surrounding suburbs as well?

Click to expand...

*Correct.:thumbup:

*


lovethetrade said:



So what happens when you want to add a new circuit somewhere else in the house? Do you cut the walls open to run pipe?:laughing:

Give it 10+ years it will just be a house full of pipe mixed with romex.:thumbsup:

Click to expand...

*Only if you are a hack. That $hit does not exist in our vocabulary here.(seriously) :no:
Otherwise you bring some 3/8 greenfield and some THHN wire along with a gem box.:thumbup: It took a couple of years for me to forget about romex. Now when I see it I just:laughing::no: heck it took me 10 years to get use to horizontal mud rings. I still to this day want to go vertical.

EDIT: You will pull that circuit from the panel all the way to your approximate location then fish from there or just separate the circuits in the box right there. no mess no fuss. The bad part is taking all the receptacles out and light fixtures down but it gets done with no damage most of the time.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> Correct.:thumbup:
> 
> 
> Only if you are a hack. That $hit does not exist in our vocabulary here.(seriously) :no:
> Otherwise you bring some 3/8 greenfield and some thhn wire along with a gem box.:thumbup: It took a couple of years for me to forget about romex. Now when I see it I just:laughing::no: heck it took me 10 years to get use to horizontal mud rings. I still to this day want to go vertical.


Outlets and switches are installed sideways? :blink:


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Just receptacles & phone. Even on the counter tops they are horizontal.


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## 8V92TA (Jul 27, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Outlets and switches are installed sideways? :blink:


We had a customer who requested that. They got tired of the ground opening in the outlets getting broken all the time in their old house, so in their new place, they wanted everything mounted sideways. Looked a little weird, and I suggested they just have us install the outlets upside down in vertical boxes... They didn't want to do that, since they said "horizontal outlets make the large baseboards look better". In that particular house, I actually had to agree with them. It looked pretty good! The framers didn't like it though, but then again, there's few things those guys do like. 

That reminds me, on that house with all the rigid steel conduit, the homeowner wanted no nails used in the framing, and 5/8" sheetrock everywhere. Everything got screwed together. I have to say, that place had one heck of a solid feel to it! People with deep pockets sure do request some odd things. Oh well, as long as their money is green, I can't complain.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

The drywall (sheetrock) here is all screwed in. No Nails.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


B4T said:



Here is a typical (5) gang switch layout for a standard house.. just drilling the holes above the box was a PIA.. these guys using nail guns shoot in more nails than needed..

If I hit a nail.. I can move the hole over.. running pipe.. what do you do?? :blink:

switch for outside light by door
switch for (2) motion sensors at end of house
switch for HPS for backyard
3-way switch for kitchen recessed lights
3-way switch for dining room light

Click to expand...

*


B4T said:


>


Ahhhhhh yes it's all coming back to me now. There is your panel in the basement on the right. (I see the HR's) A pancake box for the outside light fixture. You never see a whip sticking out the wall here. there is a box mounted behind the fixture and it is not a pancake box. Jus sayn 

Life would be so much more simple if I could run romex here. I probably would make more money too.
I want to know what do you Romex jockeys bid per opening for NEW residential work? B4T?????? 

BTWwhat does B4T mean? Is that like H7T?:laughing:


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> *
> 
> Ahhhhhh yes it's all coming back to me now. There is your panel in the basement on the right. (I see the HR's) A pancake box for the outside light fixture. You never see a whip sticking out the wall here. there is a box mounted behind the fixture and it is not a pancake box. Jus sayn
> 
> ...


*

B4T = Black4Truck, his old alias.*


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Island Electric said:


> Just receptacles & phone. Even on the counter tops they are horizontal.


I have to ask:
Is the Neutral required to go up?


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Ground to the right. Hot on top, neutral on bottom.


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Island Electric said:


> Ground to the right. Hot on top, neutral on bottom.


Wow, that's code, not trade practice?

When I install one horizontally to fit under a mirror or something, I thought I was doing
the right thing with neutral on top, ground to the left. Go figure.


----------



## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

IIRC in Canada the hot has to be down when you install a horizontal receptacle with a metal cover plate


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


rexowner said:



Wow, that's code, not trade practice?

When I install one horizontally to fit under a mirror or something, I thought I was doing
the right thing with neutral on top, ground to the left. Go figure.

Click to expand...

*Honestly I do not have an answer for you. I never questioned the practice. Hot on top made sense to me. Never thought that far into it. My bad.

The Canadian response was interesting.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Not all the Chicago burbs require EMT. Just the ones closest. Further you get the more relaxed it is. Each town adds their own requirements. 
Adding a piped 1900 box to a basement isn't to bad. 
This was today's home project. The GFCI near the sink ended up coming thru just above an I beam. Then you get creative bending around it. 
The second one in the same utility room had an opening already there. I had a leak from a bathroom behind this wall. It feeds from below and up to the ironing board for a light & receptacle.

Edit, the PS gfci recept is hot up. Then you can read the writing on it.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Not all the Chicago burbs require EMT. Just the ones closest. Further you get the more relaxed it is. Each town adds their own requirements.
> Adding a piped 1900 box to a basement isn't to bad.
> This was today's home project. The GFCI near the sink ended up coming thru just above an I beam. Then you get creative bending around it.
> The second one in the same utility room had an opening already there. I had a leak from a bathroom behind this wall. It feeds from below and up to the ironing board for a light & receptacle.
> ...


I have to say that's crazy that you have to cut out the sheetrock like that to add a receptacle. Why not just use an old work box and some FMC?


----------



## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

all of 134 does, 150 does... thats all i can say for sure. so, that is most of them.....


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Did anyone look at the OP's complete slideshow?

If you did, it's pretty funny to see what appears to be a typical tract home McMansion house with cheesy vinyl windows, PVC drain lines, and other basic wood framing methods wired with EMT. It really does not make sense.


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



I have to say that's crazy that you have to cut out the sheetrock like that to add a receptacle. Why not just use an old work box and some FMC?

Click to expand...

*
Agreed! Thats is the first thing I thought when I saw it. I always try to get it done w/ out damage and would have done the 3/8" GF and a gem box before cutting. Maybe he did try... he did mentioned the beam. Who knows and I do not care either way. Just sayn


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Did anyone look at the OP's complete slideshow?
> 
> If you did, it's pretty funny to see what appears to be a typical tract home McMansion house with cheesy vinyl windows, PVC drain lines, and other basic wood framing methods wired with EMT. It really does not make sense.


Sure it does if romex ,Bx,mc. or any other flexable methode were outlawed then that is how you would have to do it..


Your fear is showing...:laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Sure it does if romex ,Bx,mc. or any other flexable methode were out lawed then that is how you would have to do it..
> 
> 
> Your fear is showing...:laughing:


Uh oh, Harry's drunk again.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Uh oh, Harry's drunk again.


No pete not tonight ,,


But lets face it you can not run pipe to bad for you..:laughing:


----------



## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

For remodeling purposes you can fish a piece of GF.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> But lets face it you can not run pipe to bad for you..:laughing:


If you say so. :wacko:

The funny thing is you have no idea how dumb of a statement that is. :no:


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I have to say that's crazy that you have to cut out the sheetrock like that to add a receptacle. Why not just use an old work box and some FMC?


Sure I could have. I could have run it in romex also. But I like to run TW. 
Besides if I didn't do this today, I would have been out back pulling weeds. 
The walls are getting some paneling so patching the walls is easy.


----------



## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Not all the Chicago burbs require EMT. Just the ones closest. Further you get the more relaxed it is. Each town adds their own requirements.
> Adding a piped 1900 box to a basement isn't to bad.
> This was today's home project. The GFCI near the sink ended up coming thru just above an I beam. Then you get creative bending around it.
> The second one in the same utility room had an opening already there. I had a leak from a bathroom behind this wall. It feeds from below and up to the ironing board for a light & receptacle.
> ...


Is that a double wide?

Other than the emt it looks to be built like one.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> If you say so. :wacko:
> 
> The funny thing is you have no idea how dumb of a statement that is. :no:


 And how is that.


----------



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

jefft110 said:


> Is that a double wide?
> 
> Other than the emt it looks to be built like one.


I never saw a 3000sf double wide that had drywall. 
Did they build yours like that?

The wall with the larger hole is double studded wide for the upstairs plumbing. 
I had planned to install the built in ironing board further down away from the garage door. This was the only free opening in the room, all others were filled.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Island Electric said:


> Ground to the right. Hot on top, neutral on bottom.


This is a trade practice IMO since around 1970. If, for example you have an outlet and switch in the same box by a sink, the outlet is vertical. 

In Illinois each building department has its own requirements. NECs accepted range from 1999 to 2011. Each building department can the adopt amendments such as no NM, no AC, no MC, etc. There are departments that are EMT only and some even limit wire colors. 

While adding an outlet may be easier with NM, I wish my home was wired entirely in EMT. I could rewire the bathroom outlets with 12 ga easily. I could wire all the outlets in 12 ga for that matter. 

When comparing new homes in NM to EMT the labor to rough is one day less (according to a neighbor's son who does both). Trim is the same. I don't know the size of the crew. 

While running EMT may seem daunting to those that run NM it is really barely considered skilled labor. EMT bending is taught very early to an apprentice in union shops, and in non-union shops is done by laborers. There is little difference in material cost IMO when you consider the price difference between NM with plastic boxes to EMT with metal boxes and rings, especially when you consider that multiple home runs are typical in EMT.

Edit to add: With this crew 2 days to rough in NM, 3 days to rough in EMT. Best guess on house size is under 4,000 sq. ft.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

If I was wiring my own house and had all the time in the world and could do it "my way" I wouldn't use EMT but I'd use "smurf tube" and metal boxes. The plaster rings would go on vertical. 

On second thought, nah. I'd use romex. :laughing:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

EMT or conduit would make rewiring the entire house a pretty neat job. Just rewiring, not adding anything additional.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I just spoke with the neighbor about the crew. It's a foreman, his son and sometimes a gopher to help. It would be an exaggeration to call his son an apprentice. He has a harder time with NM than EMT because he doesn't understand which wire to run for switching & why the white wire in switch legs isn't a neutral.

Anyway the conclusion is on a 2-3 man crew with one of them a journeyman, the difference between NM and EMT is one day to rough. At non-union wages we're probably around ($25 + $15 + $10) X 8 hrs = $400 labor difference. Materials for EMT may actually be cheaper because that 1/2" EMT home run may have 3 or 4 circuits in it. In fact EMT with wire might be less than NM. 

It could end up a wash or very little difference either way with materials and labor.

Edit to add: With this crew 2 days to rough in NM, 3 days to rough in EMT. Best guess on house size is under 4,000 sq. ft.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

rexowner said:


> ...
> Based on the fact that so many electrical fires originated from sources other than branch
> circuit wiring, e.g. extension cords and appliances, as well as the fact that there
> are large states including California, Minnesota and Massachusetts that have
> ...


I think the quote from the chief electrical inspector was prior to the code requirement for combination type AFCIs. The original branch circuit and feeder type AFCIs provided no protection beyond the fixed wiring of the building. 


> Even if true, if one deconstructs what he is actually saying, i.e. what % of fires are caused
> by electrical, and then only dealing with "distribution" (i.e. not appliances etc)
> it would not make me feel much safer at all if my house had pipe instead of Romex.


I am not exactly sure what is included in the fire cause definition of "distribution". I don't know if it includes branch circuit wiring or not. If you dig back to many of the proposals that were submitted to support the requirement of AFCIs, you will find that there are claims that 40% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of an electrical cause had their origin determined as being in the fixed wiring of the building.

If you dig even deeper you will find that 85% of the dwelling unit fires said to be of electrical origin were in dwelling units over 20 years old. 



> I like pipe, but it looks to me like the "waste of time" argument is pretty close to the mark.


For what it is worth, my house is not in a "pipe code" area and is wired with NM.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Peter D said:


> So I understand this correctly - this rule for EMT only isn't just for the city of Chicago, but all of the surrounding suburbs as well?


There are a number of suburbs that have a "pipe" code. About half of the total population of Illinois is covered by "pipe" codes. The population of Chicago is about 21% of the total state population.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm in Crystal Lake, about 50 miles from the Oceanarium on the lake. Crystal Lake allows BX/AC/MC not NM. The Village of Lakewood in Crystal Lake is EMT only. Woodstock to the NW is EMT only. All of the cities toward Chicago from here are EMT only.


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## iminaquagmire (Oct 1, 2008)

And McHenry at 20 minutes North has NM. I can definitely see where it would be easier to just run pipe everywhere. I only do MC, AC, and pipe.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> If I was wiring my own house and had all the time in the world and could do it "my way" I wouldn't use EMT but I'd use "smurf tube" and metal boxes. The plaster rings would go on vertical.
> 
> On second thought, nah. I'd use romex. :laughing:


I just finished a house... wired in smurf as HR's to a box, then romex from there. Any HRs exposed in the basement were ran in FMC. Im working on getting pics up for you guys to tear apart.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I just finished a house... wired in smurf as HR's to a box, then romex from there. Any HRs exposed in the basement were ran in FMC. Im working on getting pics up for you guys to tear apart.


Did you put any of the smurf under the the slab? I have a few houses
coming up and will be putting some of the HRs under the slab.  I was
thinking PVC, but would probably be easier in smurf.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

rexowner said:


> Did you put any of the smurf under the the slab? I have a few houses
> coming up and will be putting some of the HRs under the slab. I was
> thinking PVC, but would probably be easier in smurf.


No slab. 1 panel was set in the 3 levels, basement, 1st fl and 2nd fl. from the panel is a smurf with four 2 wire circuits and a ground. mostly the smurf was ran in the walls, and between the 2 levels. Each panel served only its floor, except for the stairs 3way circuits.

But to answer your question - I would use smurf under the slab no problem. I would do 2 things though - step it up 1 size larger than needed, and tape your joints!


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am about 90 miles from Chicago and NM is permitted in dwelling units and multifamily dwellings of 4 units or less. AC, MC and NM are prohibited in commercial occupancies.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> Pete if I did not see it with my own eyes I would agree with you. There is a slight difference but not what you are thinking. I was blown away when I saw it. For 12 years that was all I ever knew was Romex. Now 14 more have past and I'm a believer in the pipe and metal boxes.
> 
> The HD by me sell plastic boxes and romex. The plastic boxes are up high so you will have to ask for them to be taken down. The romex is right there on the shelf.
> 
> ...


 
Typo?

90 smokes? Well I guess so if there are 95 ceiling fans. Why on that large of a residence don't they have a separate fire alarm system?


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


LARMGUY said:



Typo?

90 smokes? Well I guess so if there are 95 ceiling fans. Why on that large of a residence don't they have a separate fire alarm system?

Click to expand...

*

No typo. 120 volt smoke and carbon monoxide detectors. All are wired together in parallel. Separate system not required here in Residential. 
smokes 90
smoke/carbon combo 125

The ceiling fan is just for a feed and box w/ blank cover. (Not to hang the fan)

This guy sent me his bid sheet and I tried to use it today for this kitchen remodel-hallway- subpanel bid today. Let me just say I will not be working that cheap ever! If these numbers he gave me are indeed the going rate I'm in alot of trouble. I thought Electricians made a good living. 
Either way I'm not lowering my prices. This is not walmart electrik:jester:


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## eutecticalloy (Dec 12, 2010)

May have missed this, so do you often oversize conduit for future expansion. If the emt is full it would be silly to justify adding ckts as an easy thing. I do a lot of solar and all of our stuff is run in thin wall conduit. New construction homes aren't too bad unless you're dealing with vaulted ceilings.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And home buyers should be happy to pay the extra just because it pleases you.
> 
> Sometimes your union inner self shows through.


I just want to thank those guys that piped that apartment house back in 1969. I had to get a couple of #10s through a poured concrete apartment and thank God in heaven it was piped! It took me about 20 minutes...


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

im not familiar with the practices in chicago, but do they require liscensed elect. only?. or can anybody wire. Also these are my feelings on up grades and re-wire.. It SHOULD be the policy of the AHJ to interperate, and enforce, but not to assume what might happen in the future. What i mean is, should we leave both sides of the house "wire free" simply because they "might" add a garage,or sunroom,porch etc. I know this is the far extreme, but i think it still applies. yes it is EASIER to re-wire in pipe, but then anybody can do it, Thats where "we" as a collective group make money. This is only my opinion and i could be wrong


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


eutecticalloy said:



May have missed this, so do you often oversize conduit for future expansion. If the emt is full it would be silly to justify adding ckts as an easy thing. I do a lot of solar and all of our stuff is run in thin wall conduit. New construction homes aren't too bad unless you're dealing with vaulted ceilings.

Click to expand...

*From the panel.
Usually we put 2 networks in a 1/2" pipe.
In the kitchen there will most likely be multiple pipes. 3/4" and 1/2" but for the most part everything is 1/2" that can be. 
No normally pipes are not maxed out.
The smokes get their own raceway that is not mixed with anything else.

EDIT: Yes you need a licensed EC. The employees are not required to be licensed or certified.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

As for oversizing the conduit, it can only be done to a point. Only 9 wires are permitted in any conduit (except control circuits). The answer is spare pipes. This is for the city of Chicago only. I can't speak for the burbs.


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## eutecticalloy (Dec 12, 2010)

Island Electric said:


> From the panel.
> Usually we put 2 networks in a 1/2" pipe.
> In the kitchen there will most likely be multiple pipes. 3/4" and 1/2" but for the most part everything is 1/2" that can be.
> No normally pipes are not maxed out.
> ...


What would a JW expect as far as pay out there?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, I must admit it. Even though I think this EMT in a house thing is a ridiculous waste of time and material, it's starting to grow on me a bit. Not that I want to start piping houses or anything, but I have to admit it has its benefits at least in new construction. Adding anything to the system or remodeling - forget it.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

I can only speak for Union scale $40.40


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

eutecticalloy said:


> What would a JW expect as far as pay out there?


Non-union new construction is in the $15-20/hour range with very limited benefits. What does the benefit package bring union scale to Island?


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## All-Circuits (May 31, 2011)

pugz134 said:


> Look at that. A properly piped house. No spaghetti in sight. Looks good. The loose wires in the rings are probably phone, data, cable.


 Yeah, us Lake County boys were expected to have that work done by break time, lol. just another day on the job. to bad those days are long gone up here now.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


Peter D said:



Adding anything to the system or remodeling - forget it.

Click to expand...

*The remodel is not that bad at all. it would be just like the NM except it will be FMC unless the walls are wide open then it will be pipe. 

Most of the time you can pull switch legs or circuits through existing pipes to get in the vicinity of where you want to be. If you have to channel the drywall and have no choice well it is what it is. Same would apply to romex.... right? 

The part that sucks is the FMC is harder to work with and the pipe requires other fittings and boxes so your basic truck stock is a bigger. You will also want to have some colors on your truck. Blk & Red & wht. for power. Yellow and orange for switch legs. 2 browns or 2 purples for travelers. So now you need all this wire too. I hate solid wire and only use stranded.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

*


All-Circuits said:



Yeah, us Lake County boys were expected to have that work done by break time, lol. just another day on the job. to bad those days are long gone up here now.

Click to expand...

*He is right!

Our residential flatters here are just amazing! It is not UNcommon to see them throw up 1000' of pipe per day. Some say they can do 1500' of pipe per day. A take it easy day is 800' of pipe. I am not exaggerating in the least bit. No kidding. Now me I'm lucky if I can get 500' on a good day in a house. I'm more of a commercial guy but from the old romex days in long Island I understand the houses. Most Commercial Electricians want nothing to do with residential. I'm glad I was able to learn it.


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## All-Circuits (May 31, 2011)

Island Electric said:


> He is right!
> 
> Our residential flatters here are just amazing! It is not UNcommon to see them throw up 1000' of pipe per day. Some say they can do 1500' of pipe per day. A take it easy day is 800' of pipe. I am not exaggerating in the least bit. No kidding. Now me I'm lucky if I can get 500' on a good day in a house. I'm more of a commercial guy but from the old romex days in long Island I understand the houses. Most Commercial Electricians want nothing to do with residential. I'm glad I was able to learn it.


 Local 150 residential for 12 years makes you a 1000 foot a day electrician, and make it look good too. I miss it, but..... I don't do it anymore. I just got reclassified to inside wireman. Back to the bottom of the list again.


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## eutecticalloy (Dec 12, 2010)

Tiger said:


> Non-union new construction is in the $15-20/hour range with very limited benefits. What does the benefit package bring union scale to Island?


Are you union or non union? Here in the bay area union JW get 45 or so and non like 30. Fifteen an hour seems way to low to make a living with.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

eutecticalloy said:


> Are you union or non union? Here in the bay area union JW get 45 or so and non like 30. Fifteen an hour seems way to low to make a living with.


I'm non-Union. $15/hour is what my neighbor's kid is making. It beat a 2 year layoff with the Union. He was a journeyman carpenter for a long time. A lot of the new construction work in this area is done by non-english speaking gents for $10/hour cash.

I looked up prevailing wage which levels the field with the Union:

$42.92 Base
$11.16 H/W
$10.87 Pension
$00.54 Training


$65.49 Total/hour


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Tiger said:


> Non-union new construction is in the $15-20/hour range with very limited benefits. What does the benefit package bring union scale to Island?


Union scale w/ benies is somewhere near 67 - 68 / hr. I do not have the sheet in front of me.

Your non union is low. I was much higher than that when I worked for a non-union shop. Had decent benefits and bonuses as well....


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Tiger said:


> I'm non-Union. $15/hour is what my neighbor's kid is making. It beat a 2 year layoff with the Union. He was a journeyman carpenter for a long time. A lot of the new construction work in this area is done by non-english speaking gents for $10/hour cash.
> 
> I looked up prevailing wage which levels the field with the Union:
> 
> ...


Here, I think prevailing wage is slightly less than union scale. For prevailing wage, they do not have to pay all the union costs...

For one project I bid, the prevailing wage was about $7 an hour less than what our package rate is.

That is 134...$40.40/hr is 134 wage.

Is your neighbor's kid a journeyman electrician or a carpenter?


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

mdfriday said:


> Here, I think prevailing wage is slightly less than union scale. For prevailing wage, they do not have to pay all the union costs...
> 
> For one project I bid, the prevailing wage was about $7 an hour less than what our package rate is.
> 
> ...


He was a journeyman carpenter. He's not a journeyman electrician, but he's drilling, bending and pulling. I'd call him a helper since he's not in an apprentice program. They have another guy that knows less, so I guess he's a laborer. The crew apparently is foreman, helper and laborer...all non-union.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

mdfriday said:


> Union scale w/ benies is somewhere near 67 - 68 / hr. I do not have the sheet in front of me.
> 
> Your non union is low. I was much *higher* than that when I worked for a non-union shop. Had decent benefits and bonuses as well....


According to the calls I get from electricians, the unemployment rate is *higher*.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Tiger said:


> According to the calls I get from electricians, the unemployment rate is *higher*.


I am still employed, full time. Thankfully.


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## catfishjack (Sep 4, 2011)

if i ever tried passing off some cobbled up pipework like that i wouldn't have a job


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