# Time delay pump setup... help?



## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

There are specialty timers that are on and off delay, but none of them will be 480V rated, so plan on adding the CPT. You might also look into simple pump controllers from people like Time Mark. The make a low cost simple triplex controller that will do all three pumps and I believe will stagger the starts and stops. But make sure your customer realizes that this surge issue will persist in the event of a power failure, because with electricity the timers do no good. They really should have a hydraulic check valve in those pumps or at least on on the common header. I know the hydraulics is not your problem, but I've had people complain to me that soft starters failed to soft stop their pumps when the power fails! They don't think things through very well before getting themselves worked up. I like to make sure up front that they understand the ramifications and are not stuck in "magical thinking" mode.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

instead of small plc you can call them programmable relay (some are under 100$!), it may be easier to be accepted :laughing: and will cost about 3-4 times less then specialized timers


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Forget the pump controller, they don't stagger the turn off.

But here's a dual on-off delay timer. 
http://www.time-mark.com/FileDownloadHandler.ashx?File=Documents/DataSheets/339_0906.pdf

I agree on the smart relay too, thats actaully what i would use. But it will still take some amount of programming and if that's what they want to avoid, then it doesn't solve the problem.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

JRaef said:


> Forget the pump controller, they don't stagger the turn off.
> 
> But here's a dual on-off delay timer.
> http://www.time-mark.com/FileDownloadHandler.ashx?File=Documents/DataSheets/339_0906.pdf
> ...


Damn, that timer relay is perfect. Where do y'all find this s**t? :laughing::thumbup:

Thanks for the advice.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Take a look at the 
Automatictiming.com 
Website. 
I believe they might have the relay your searching for.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Damn, that timer relay is perfect. Where do y'all find this s**t? :laughing::thumbup:
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


Take a look at the site I listed. 
I believe the 339 is one of theirs.

Also think about the ARM-120 series. They have the option to "skip" a load during a single pump down for maintenance.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Damn, that timer relay is perfect. Where do y'all find this s**t? :laughing::thumbup: Thanks for the advice.


Now, all you have to do is make a drawing of the circuit and bench test it. Do that before you have a few city guys waiting around on you. That is not the time to work out any bugs. Never hurts to make it work the first time. :thumbsup:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I suggested a PLC but they don't want to go through the trouble when the facility is going to be replaced in a few years. So now I'm stuck trying to figure out a way to do this with timing relays..


I would think the PLC would just be reused again later. Programming 3 on delays, and 3 off delays, would take less than an hour.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Zelio or logo would be my choice cheap and easy


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*Check My Work*

Is this drawing right ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Where do y'all find this s**t?


Close out of the **** and go look at a relay manufacture's site once and a while. :laughing::laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

JRaef said:


> But here's a dual on-off delay timer.
> http://www.time-mark.com/FileDownloadHandler.ashx?File=Documents/DataSheets/339_0906.pdf


That's a cool relay. Can anyone help me understand it a little more?

Looking at the wiring schematic, it appears that there are 2 NO/NC/C set of contacts. 

1(C) is NO to 3 and NC to 4.
8(C) is NO to 8 and NC to 5.
2&7 are the coil

On delay on/off relays, I understood we need a constant power terminal that will power the output when the control power drops out. So, does this work in that terminals 1 and/or 8 (the commons) will have constant power and the control power will feed 2&7? If that's the case, where does the power for the timer come from when the control power drops off, the C and terminal 7 (or is the timer not electrically operated)?

I hope this question makes sense (and I don't appear too dumb).

Also, the dials on the top are for each side of the timer? So that would mean the delay on would equal the delay off (in time)?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

No you are very observant and it's not a dumb question. You're right in that most electronic off delay relays need power to the coil constantly and have a separate initiate contact. But the description of this is a "true off delay" which means it mimics the operation of an old pneumatic or spring wound Off Delay timer in that the off delay begins when power is removed from 2 or 7. It's harder to do with electronic timers, that's why you don't see it much, but I like it that way because I think it's simpler. What they do is use a super capacitor inside that maintains power to the electronics for the duration of the off delay setting and still maintains enough juice to operate the contacts at the end.


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## Resiwireman (Apr 27, 2011)

JRaef said:


> No you are very observant and it's not a dumb question. You're right in that most electronic off delay relays need power to the coil constantly and have a separate initiate contact. But the description of this is a "true off delay" which means it mimics the operation of an old pneumatic or spring wound Off Delay timer in that the off delay begins when power is removed from 2 or 7. It's harder to do with electronic timers, that's why you don't see it much, but I like it that way because I think it's simpler. What they do is use a super capacitor inside that maintains power to the electronics for the duration of the off delay setting and still maintains enough juice to operate the contacts at the end.


You have got to be an Engineer, and not an Electrician.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Resiwireman said:


> You have got to be an Engineer, and not an Electrician.


Was an electrician, 99% industrial work (other than as an apprentice) then became and EE after getting hurt on the job a long time ago (fell off a ladder and tore many of the ligaments in my feet and ankles). I still find the "real world" experience I got as an electrician more valuable than the school work I did to become an EE. Most of that stuff was theoretical and generally useless in what I do day to day. 

It was interesting being in a class with younger punks wanting to be bit twiddlers (electronics geeks) and having more experience with power than most of my professors. It's a sad state of affairs in academia right now because almost nobody goes into power, they all want the glory and rewards for making the next video game console. That's why this country has to import power qualified EEs now.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

dronai said:


> Is this drawing right ?


If it were me, I'd put the E-stop between the control relay and motor starter instead of before the control relay. If I understand your drawing correctly, it appears the E-stop might not stop the motor under every condition.


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## fjl810 (Jul 20, 2011)

A true E-STOP would be wired to the coil of a main line contactor that will interrupt the line voltage before all other controling device's


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

fjl810 said:


> A true E-STOP would be wired to the coil of a main line contactor that will interrupt the line voltage before all other controling device's


Is there a reference for that statement? I'm not saying your wrong, just never heard it put quite that way and was wondering if it's a code you read or it's "we've always done it that way" or it's your opinion, or someone taught it to you that way.

Thanks,


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

is there a normal stop or jus an e-stop to stop the pumps. sometimes an e-stop is not hardwired if a sequence must be respected to be safer


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If it were me, I'd put the E-stop between the control relay and motor starter instead of before the control relay. If I understand your drawing correctly, it appears the E-stop might not stop the motor under every condition.


 
I shouldn't have called it an E stop. It's just the off PB. Controls the Timer Off Delay to the same coil. Putting it where I did would drop out C1, which opens the contact to M1

I now think I would need all three coils connected to the same start switch. Iin, and out to the next delay so there is a starting, and stopping sequence.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

oliquir said:


> is there a normal stop or jus an e-stop to stop the pumps. sometimes an e-stop is not hardwired if a sequence must be respected to be safer


Mistake, that was just an off PB to the C1 coil opening M1


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Kind of a pointless argument, that drawing is unworkable anyway (aside from mis-labeled). 

But anyway, E-stops *should* be wired in way that is, with as little room for error as possible, going to positively cause power to stop flowing in a circuit. The more relays and such between the E-stop and the power devices, the more chances there are for something to go wrong. But there are no hard and fast rules for this, there is in fact no absolute _requirement_ for an E-stop at all.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

.....


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*Revised*

Will it work ?


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## 636Sparky (Jun 24, 2011)

What program is that which you are drawing with. I have been looking for something like that.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

dronai said:


> Will it work ?


That looks like the basic idea. Now the problem is that the motor controls are currently all 480 volt. The timing relays are only good for 120 volts. So you need to work 480 v to 120 v control transformer(s) in there and either (a) Find a timing relay with contacts rated for at least 480 volts to switch the actual coil circuit, or (b) Change the starter coils out to 120 volt ones.

Whichever method is cheaper.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

636Sparky said:


> What program is that which you are drawing with. I have been looking for something like that.


Press here


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

erics37 said:


> That looks like the basic idea. Now the problem is that the motor controls are currently all 480 volt. The timing relays are only good for 120 volts. So you need to work 480 v to 120 v control transformer(s) in there and either (a) Find a timing relay with contacts rated for at least 480 volts to switch the actual coil circuit, or (b) Change the starter coils out to 120 volt ones.
> 
> Whichever method is cheaper.


 
Seems with the Smart Relay, or PLC, I would leave it the way it is, and have all internal relays, to one contactor, and leave it at 480V, would be cheaper, than all that hardware. You would still need the switching to be at a lower voltage for the I/O


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Click PLC with the cable, and free software - $160.00
480V to 120V, or 24V for PLC - Control transformer- $75.00 
480V contactor with 120V or 24V coil to all motor starters - $100.00


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## fjl810 (Jul 20, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Is there a reference for that statement? I'm not saying your wrong, just never heard it put quite that way and was wondering if it's a code you read or it's "we've always done it that way" or it's your opinion, or someone taught it to you that way.
> 
> Thanks,


Let's just say that is what I seen done most of the time.
Bridge cranes for instance, From DEMAG , P & H and KRANCO all use a E-STOP controlling a Main Contactor.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

dronai said:


> Will it work ?


I don't mean to be critical, but you asked.


You are missing a seal-in contact around the Start button for CR1.
You have no ability to start or stop any one motor independently of the other two.
I don't see a coil for the timer, or is that supposed to be CR1?
If there is only one timer, you would need two separate On-Off time values, as if it will have two separate sets of output contacts, each one controlled by a different knob. The timer I linked to has separate time values BETWEEN the On and Off times, but the contacts would both operate at those times.
It's simpler in my mind to just use a timer on each motor's Start-Stop Circuit. Assuming you want 3 wire control, (when that is not likely on a pump control system), Start button energizes a relay and the timer coil, relay seals itself in, timer contact operates the starter coil after On delay. Stop button is pressed, relay and timer drop out, timer contacts stay closed keeping the motor starter on until Off delay times out. 

Better yet, whatever decides a pump needs to run is a 2 wire control scheme. Run command energizes or denergizes the timer, timer controls the starter coil, just forget the Start-Stop button and relay.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

JRaef, thanks for all that info, 

1) I didn't think you needed a seal in circuit, or low voltage protection (3 wire control) because who cares if they start back up after a power failure. 
2) Independant control - Good point !
3) Yes C1 is my coil
4) I used that relay you showed that has both built in, I didn't know how to separate the control to them.
5) Improvments- I should have a 3 separate start/stop buttons, or just a run switch. One for each pump for independant control.
6) 2 wire control is what I thought I used, with no seal in circuit.
7) control timers on delay, and off delays separately


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Something like this should work. You can always add some HOAs for more control.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Mattsilkwood, does that have time delay on, and off ?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

dronai said:


> Mattsilkwood, does that have time delay on, and off ?


 Yes, that's with the timer JRaef posted earlier.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

PLC with Run switch only, all three pumps work on, and off with delays


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> Will it work ?


Both drawings have issues. Why not tell us/me again exactly how you want this circuit to behave. Do you have a 3 wire or 2 wire circuit in mind? 
You need only one relay, the timing relay. You only need one motor coil. No need for CR1 when you need only TR1. TR will do all the controlling. You should have a stop/start/e-stop.

When you push the button to start the pump, TR1 should energize and the on delay contact TR1-? should time out. When it times out, it closes and energizes the motor contactor coil. TR1 requires a holding contact. Pushing the off button should drop out (no power) to TR1. When it times out, TR1-? contact opens motor starter coil.

I need to learn how to do the drawings to post them. It is so hard to try an explain it. What program are you using Dorian? I like it.
I have a scanner. Let me try to learn how to use it. If I can draw it, it will make much more sense.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Both drawings have issues. Why not tell us/me again exactly how you want this circuit to behave. Do you have a 3 wire or 2 wire circuit in mind?
> You need only one relay, the timing relay. You only need one motor coil. No need for CR1 when you need only TR1. TR will do all the controlling. You should have a stop/start/e-stop.
> 
> When you push the button to start the pump, TR1 should energize and the on delay contact TR1-? should time out. When it times out, it closes and energizes the motor contactor coil. TR1 requires a holding contact. Pushing the off button should drop out (no power) to TR1. When it times out, TR1-? contact opens motor starter coil.
> ...


http://www.wadeinstruments.com/ez_schematics/description.htm


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks John, Click the link above, He has a free demoversion, I then copy by print screen button on my keyboard, and paste to paint to upload the drawing


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> Thanks John, Click the link above, He has a free demoversion, I then copy by print screen button on my keyboard, and paste to paint to upload the drawing


I see the free trial version, but no demoversion. I hate to pay for something I will rarely use. 
I have never used CAD, or auto CAD. It is intimidating. Is this easier? It looks great with all the symbols we use. I am tempted to try it.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> I see the free trial version, but no demoversion. I hate to pay for something I will rarely use.
> I have never used CAD, or auto CAD. It is intimidating. Is this easier? It looks great with all the symbols we use. I am tempted to try it.


I think you get only so many days to use the trial version. But I don't think you have to pay ?


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> I see the free trial version, but no demoversion. I hate to pay for something I will rarely use.
> I have never used CAD, or auto CAD. It is intimidating. Is this easier? It looks great with all the symbols we use. I am tempted to try it.


John

You get to trial the app...and from memory it only costs around $30 ...

Frank


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*Program Run*


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> I think you get only so many days to use the trial version. But I don't think you have to pay ?


Got it.



Frank Mc said:


> John
> 
> You get to trial the app...and from memory it only costs around $30 ...
> 
> Frank


If it's a one time cost, I am in. Even if I use it one time, it will be worth $30.00. The real/hard question. Is this software easy to use? If it's hard to use, even for free it's not worth it. It has to be inexpensive and easy to use, for me that is. Am I asking to much?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a one time cost, I am in. Even if I use it one time, it will be worth $30.00. The real/hard question. Is this software easy to use? If it's hard to use, even for free it's not worth it. It has to be inexpensive and easy to use, for me that is. Am I asking to much?


 
Really easy !


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Here is a drawing that will allow all three pumps to alternate start and stop. Since each pump will require it's own sequence, it will require 3 electronic timers like shown in the post above.
CR1 is used to initiate the cycle. As in every individual drawing, there can be other ways to do this. I am practicing with the new drawing software. I hope this turns out okay.
Here is your drawing Eric.

Well the drawing is fine. The file sucks and cannot be read. I will try and fix it and edit it. Sorry.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Looks good John. Do you think it needs a seal in circuit ? If there is a power outage, and no one is present to reset it, the pumps don't go back on.

Is mine on post#30 ok ? 

Also what did you use to print the screen to ? or did you just upload the file ?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> Looks good John. Do you think it needs a seal in circuit ? If there is a power outage, and no one is present to reset it, the pumps don't go back on.
> 
> Is mine on post#30 ok ?
> 
> Also what did you use to print the screen to ? or did you just upload the file ?


Yes, In my diagram the seal in circuit (latch) is required to keep power on all three timers and on CR1, until the stop button is pushed. We could have used one of the timers contacts to hold the circuit energized. But for simplicity I used a relay.
Also, if the timing relay (above) has a hold power (latch) function internally we would not need a relay at all. I assume this timer works as others and does require a latch to remain energized. 

Yes, If the power is lost the pumps sit idle until someone physically pushes the start button. Keep in mind, this drawing is designed to work with the dual on/off delay timer discussed above. If we were using standard electronic timers this drawing will not work. It would only work for either on delay or off delay. Using the timer above, we can delay both "on" and "off" in one timing relay.
I did not consider power loss, nor have we been told what initiates operation of these pumps. Do we have float switches? Do we have level control? You can see my drawing is of the most basic form. From this drawing we can add remove and edit anything we like. We become authors in a sense.
I will work on a power loss scenario and post back along with checking Dorian's drawing on post #30.

Dorian. I did not edit the drawing in "ms.paint". I think I know how to do it from there. But I do have issues with not being able to save these prints, documents in standard fashion. Screen print from paint will not be enough should we decide to edit drawings together.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

John, Add HOA, in case they want to overide th TD, and run the pumps separate. 

I thought the Latch circuit was just for Low Voltage Protection, for safety reasons. I used just a Run switch, which would just restart unmaned, if there was an outage. 

I don't think there are any floats in the tanks. Just moving fluids, or water.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> Is mine on post#30 ok ?


Yes. I like it better than mine. You eliminated one of the timing relays. That is how it should be done. We both have not considered a power loss. I used three timing relays to simplify. But if designing a real life application, this would have been addressed and corrected before the material list was started. Besides, I am practicing using the software, so I have an excuse. :laughing:

I have total confidence if you can get Eric to explain this application in detail, you alone can author the schematic for him. This schematic will find it's way to the city/county file. Your drawing will be used by the future electricians to troubleshoot. Keep it simple and give every wire a number. Every wire, including the grounded conductor. Wire colors are second to numbering.
If it's a wet or damp location, use a marking system designed for this environment.

So, Eric. What makes these pumps come on? And what makes them stop?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Whats the system for numbering wires ?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> John, Add HOA, in case they want to overide th TD, and run the pumps separate.
> I thought the Latch circuit was just for Low Voltage Protection, for safety reasons. I used just a Run switch, which would just restart unmaned, if there was an outage.
> I don't think there are any floats in the tanks. Just moving fluids, or water.





dronai said:


> Whats the system for numbering wires ?


Thats right. You can add the HOA to override the control scheme. But we should give each pump it's own start/stop circuit then. If we want total control of this circuit we want to be able to control each pump separately. ( I would encourage this ). This is what we are missing in this equation. We have no instructions. We do not know what is expected from this system. I like to call this the "scope of operation".
When anyone asked for a machine to do the things they want it to do, I ask them to write it down. Step by step. This is how we design the schematic. To meet the requirements written for us. In most every case we are asked for input? We can advise, but the operation needs to be known to all parties, verified and signed off on, in some cases.
In Eric's situation we know very little. We know 3 pumps exist. We know they want them to stagger on and off. But other than that we know very little.
Is there some remote control required. Power loss? Auto restart? Things like that.

The latching part of the circuit is used for all three wire circuits unless we want momentary operation of all devices. If we want a pump to stay running, we must latch the circuit closed once the pump contactor is closed. You understand that. 
Circuits in PLC and drive work allow for programming of control principle. 2 wire, 3 wire, pump control, ect......
In a case like this, you design your circuit as to the programming choice. For an example in a two wire circuit, the need for a latching circuit is not required. Like a light switch in your room. It is a 2 wire circuit. If you added a momentary push button it would require a 3 wire circuit to work. Something must hold/keep power to the fixture, otherwise it shuts off.

Numbering wires is part of your responsibility when designing a schematic diagram. Notice I numbered the wires on my drawing? I did this without thought. It came second nature. I cannot build this system without wire numbers. When I physically install that wire, I check it off. That way I can keep up with the many wires in a control scheme. I also want the end user to know what wire goes where and what it does. Without numbers this is not possible.
You control what numbers are used. Just make sure you use numbers on each and every single wire.
I like to use #2 for the white or colored grounded conductor and #1 coming from the control transformer. Then start with #3 and keep going.
If you only had a book with numbers 100-200, then use 100-200. Just use them. 

Thanks...............John


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

John Valdes;579231
I have total confidence if you can get Eric to explain this application in detail said:


> Wire colors are second to numbering[/B].


Control guru for company I work for uses only red for control wiring - loose a number and your lost
:thumbup:


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## fjl810 (Jul 20, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Control guru for company I work for uses only red for control wiring - loose a number and your lost
> :thumbup:


 
Red # 16 or # 14 MTW is a popular color for control. Black is used for power circuits, In a number equipment cabinets i work on.


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## Dhfisher (May 6, 2011)

Yellow colored insulation will usually designate a outside control power source ( be careful of these) a blue wire will tell us that is a dc. Powered source, there used to be a standard code for machine tool called JIC, I am not sure that everybody adheres to this standard any more ( joint industrial conference)

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Control guru for company I work for uses only red for control wiring - loose a number and your lost
> :thumbup:


I have wired cabinets with one color. It was speced for one color. Usually I try to keep the grounded conductor (neural) white or gray. But I still mark each and every single wire. Jumpers too. Sounds like overkill and it probably is. Its just my own personal preference. I am also certain that anyone that comes in behind me will thank me for doing it the way I did. I want anyone working on the system to understand.
I even number the power conductors. Its not always a control wire that gets loose or gets disconnected. I like to use numbers out of the control sequence for power conductors. 

Color to me is also preference. However, I do try to be consistent with industry standards. Like using blue for DC as an example. 

I have finally purchased the drawing software. It is easy, but is in a format that is not easy. I hope it will be available in a common format soon. As it is right now, it is not professional enough to use, well for professional drawings that could or would be submitted. Thanks Dorian.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Dhfisher said:


> Yellow colored insulation will usually designate a outside control power source ( be careful of these) a blue wire will tell us that is a dc. Powered source, there used to be a standard code for machine tool called JIC, I am not sure that everybody adheres to this standard any more ( joint industrial conference)
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


JIC standards are long gone, but were adopted for the most part by ANSI (where applicable) and many ended up in NFPA 79, the standard for Industrial Machinery Controls. I believe that NFPA 79 shows a basic color scheme that is what John Valdes descibed as "industry standard": Red for control at a voltage lower than the main line incoming power, black for circuits at the same potential as the main line, yellow for foreign sources, blue for DC controls, white for grounded neutrals, green for ground. UL508A also follows these same conventions.


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