# 4 screws vs. pigtailing



## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

What are the general practices that you do? Do you pigtail every receptical? Use the 4 screws and rely on the little tabs to carry the load of the downstream devices? Anyone have any good stories.....well we've all seen the stab-in-the-back fail  I'm talking just about wiring _through _verses _pigtailing. _What do you do with THHN stranded, always pigtail or saty-conns? 

We were having this discussion at a large commercial job site over lunch, what are the thoughts here?

TWN


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I use the "pigtail" method.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

TheWireNut said:


> What are the general practices that you do? Do you pigtail every receptical? Use the 4 screws and rely on the little tabs to carry the load of the downstream devices? Anyone have any good stories.....well we've all seen the stab-in-the-back fail  I'm talking just about wiring _through _verses _pigtailing. _What do you do with THHN stranded, always pigtail or saty-conns?
> 
> We were having this discussion at a large commercial job site over lunch, what are the thoughts here?
> 
> TWN


I do Pigtails, makes the trimout easy...:thumbup:


Stake-on's for stranded, unless they have upturn lugs on them..


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Commercial I pigtail. Resi I use the screws on everything but the 12.


----------



## ND80 (Apr 12, 2012)

I have not been in the trade very long yet but have already seen a receptacle burnt up from the 4 screw method. So pigtails it is for me.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I've done pigtails, 4screw, backstab, wagos.

I do whatever I'm instructed to do, or are inclined to do.

And I don't wrap the receptacle with tape. It's a waste of time and tape.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I still tape receptacles when using old work boxes and hold-its.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

ND80 said:


> I have not been in the trade very long yet but have already seen a receptacle burnt up from the 4 screw method. So pigtails it is for me.


This type of logic baffles me.

If the same electrician installed the pigtail receptacles you promote you could have the same result. 

And I already know your retort, but the receptacles are designed for the rated load and hack is hack.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Pigtails all the way, like Harry said, it faster at trim out.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

My method of connection is usually determined by the budget and timeline of the job, but I'd say most of the time I use the screws.

Money isn't tight, and the customer goes out of their way to specify that they are looking for quality work - Pigtail (not very often)

Average job where there's a budget, but nothing crazy - Side screws

Cheap, fast and to the point *OR*, crazy timeline, *OR* more work than I can handle by myself in a timely fashion - Backstabbing!!! :w00t:




sbrn33 said:


> Commercial I pigtail. Resi I use the screws on everything but the 12.


If I every step foot on a commercial job as someone else's sub, I generally just assume that everything needs to be pigtailed unless they say differently. Also, wagos have made pigtailing much faster and less mundane.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> Pigtails all the way, like Harry said, it faster at trim out.[ /QUOTE]
> 
> Pigtailing consumes ALOT of time during the rough-in, *and*, it is not faster than backstabbing on the trim out. :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I pigtail everything.


----------



## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

Always use pigtails! Makes life much easier.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Pigtailing consumes ALOT of time during the rough-in, *and*, it is not faster than backstabbing on the trim out. :thumbsup:


With AFCI's backstabbing is just another way to create a tripping problem.

Pigtails eat up a lot of time if you do not do them every job, make it a habit and never look back.

With pigtails made up right every time your trimouts will be easy without a big mess and finger prints all over the wall because your fighting to jam your device in the wall with 5 wires attached.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Pigtailing consumes ALOT of time during the rough-in, and, it is not faster than backstabbing on the trim out.


 I wouldn't backstab, so your point is mote to me.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> With AFCI's backstabbing is just another way to create a tripping problem.
> 
> Pigtails eat up a lot of time if you do not do them every job, make it a habit and never look back.
> 
> With pigtails made up right every time your trimouts will be easy without a big mess and finger prints all over the wall because your fighting to jam your device in the wall with 5 wires attached.


I have never seen backstabbing cause problems with arc fault breakers. Never. Crossed neutrals, neutrals touching grounds, black magic - Yes, but never from backstabbing.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> With AFCI's backstabbing is just another way to create a tripping problem.
> 
> Pigtails eat up a lot of time if you do not do them every job, make it a habit and never look back.
> 
> With pigtails made up right every time your trimouts will be easy without a big mess and finger prints all over the wall because your fighting to jam your device in the wall with 5 wires attached.


Harry, that's just silly...


----------



## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

I was just having this discussion with the guy I work with. We were putting in 4 duplexes in two 4x4s chased together. I was giving him a ton of crap for jumping from receptacle to receptacle. He was wanting me to explain why it was better to pigtail. The only reason I could think of was personal preference. I think it looks like crap. He thinks it makes for less places to fail.

We also bicker about taping receptacles and wire nuts. I hate tape.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> I have never seen backstabbing cause problems with arc fault breakers. Never. Crossed neutrals, neutrals touching grounds, black magic - Yes, but never from backstabbing.


Yet.


'Cuz AFCI's are still relatively new. Give 'em time.... you'll find some issues.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Yet.
> 
> 
> 'Cuz AFCI's are still relatively new. Give 'em time.... you'll find some issues.


They've been around for at least 10 years.


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

do you wire nut your pigtails by:

Hand

Offset wire nut driver

cordless wire nut rig driver

customized Yankee wire nuts driver


----------



## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

Lep said:


> do you wire nut your pigtails by:
> 
> Hand
> 
> ...


Wagos!


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Someone with fancy test equipment should run up the load across that little tab between the screws and see how many amps it takes to pop like a fuse - I'm sure at least 20.


----------



## zac (May 11, 2009)

Lep said:


> do you wire nut your pigtails by:
> 
> Hand
> 
> ...


If I know I am trimming out making up wires all day....


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

samgregger said:


> Someone with fancy test equipment should run up the load across that little tab between the screws and see how many amps it takes to pop like a fuse - I'm sure at least 20.


Tomorrow I'll fry a receptacle just for you.

But you have to stipulate the current.


30, 40, 50, 60, 12,000?


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

99cents said:


> Harry, that's just silly...


Wrong;

And you guys are not using AFCI's yet...:tongue_smilie:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Wrong;
> 
> And you guys are not using AFCI's yet...:tongue_smilie:


But if the AFCI trips due to arcing in a back stabbed receptacle then the AFCI is doing it's designed job?


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

zac said:


> If I know I am trimming out making up wires all day....


what do you use to drive your tool. ?


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> But if the AFCI trips due to arcing in a back stabbed receptacle then the AFCI is doing it's designed job?


That is correct, so to avoid that, use the screws and make them up right.


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

icemanjc said:


> Wagos!


which push connector brand do you prefer,only wago ? 

not all push connector brands are built the same

:laughing::laughing:


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

Bad Electrician said:


> Tomorrow I'll fry a receptacle just for you.
> 
> But you have to stipulate the current.
> 
> ...


Well I would say ramp it up until it pops, I want to know when it fails, not just see it explode.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Lep said:


> do you wire nut your pigtails by:
> 
> Hand
> 
> ...


Strip the wires, twist them together, check to see if your splice is rock solid, twist on the wire nut.


----------



## zac (May 11, 2009)

Lep said:


> what do you use to drive your tool. ?


It's all touch. 
I use a m12 milwaukee screw gun, works nice.


----------



## zac (May 11, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Strip the wires, twist them together, check to see if your splice is rock solid, twist on the wire nut.


I know people will frown...but if I have four wires or less I don't twist them b4 wirenutting. If it's a neutral carrying two loads, sure.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Lep said:


> what do you use to drive your tool. ?


My Hips


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

samgregger said:


> Well I would say ramp it up until it pops, I want to know when it fails, not just see it explode.


The temperature rise would be cumulative as I ramp up the current, I rather put 20 amps on the screws and watch temperature, then hit 40 amps and watch....


I could bump it 20......40.....60.....80....100


----------



## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> My Hips




:no::no:


----------



## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

Pigtails all the way, stranded wire: back wired devices all the time, if not available
then sta-kons.

PJHolguin



TheWireNut said:


> What are the general practices that you do? Do you pigtail every receptical? Use the 4 screws and rely on the little tabs to carry the load of the downstream devices? Anyone have any good stories.....well we've all seen the stab-in-the-back fail  I'm talking just about wiring _through _verses _pigtailing. _What do you do with THHN stranded, always pigtail or saty-conns?
> 
> We were having this discussion at a large commercial job site over lunch, what are the thoughts here?
> 
> TWN


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Screw terminals and small impact gun.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Wrong;
> 
> And you guys are not using AFCI's yet...:tongue_smilie:


Wrapping a conductor around a screw is a very solid termination. Folding your wire into a box is very easy. It doesn't result in frustration and damage to finished paint. And unnecessary wire nuts in a box just take up space and increase the chance of a ground wire touching a neutral. 

That's my opinion anyway. I only pigtail when it's necessary.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

That tab on a duplex receptacle isn't a fuse element. It's designed to take the load.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I started in commercial, and I learned to pigtail everything.

I went and did a stint in residential, and the guys who were feeding-through ran circles around me. 

Feed through is now my preferred method. I have no reason to believe it's more likely to fail than anything else; a guy who can mess up screw-terminals can also mess up a splice.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> I started in commercial, and I learned to pigtail everything.
> 
> I went and did a stint in residential, and the guys who were feeding-through ran circles around me.
> 
> Feed through is now my preferred method. I have no reason to believe it's more likely to fail than anything else; a guy who can mess up screw-terminals can also mess up a splice.


:thumbsup: Same story here.


----------



## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

All the receptacles and switches that make it to our site are pre pigtailed in the shop. Thus it really is my only option to make up pigtails with wagos. I honestly have no problem with it though. Plus it makes swapping things out in the future easier for any electrician, especially if they are doing it hot.


----------



## zac (May 11, 2009)

Big John said:


> I started in commercial, and I learned to pigtail everything.
> 
> I went and did a stint in residential, and the guys who were feeding-through ran circles around me.
> 
> Feed through is now my preferred method. I have no reason to believe it's more likely to fail than anything else; a guy who can mess up screw-terminals can also mess up a splice.


The problem I have for the stabbers is that when I do service calls the connection in the back may be engaged, but inside the device it is open. So you really have to pig tail the wire anyways to see if the circuit is complete. 
With the screw device I can visually see and test the device which makes my job quicker and the customer out of pocket expense lower.
But if I was working for someone or running a crew. ... Stan Em in boys!


----------



## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

99cents said:


> That tab on a duplex receptacle isn't a fuse element. It's designed to take the load.


Yes I know that, but any piece of metal can fail if you put enough current though it. I am just wondering at what point that tab would fail, I suspect higher than 20 amps.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I finished an arc fault circuit today. Didn't pigtail once. Even back stabbed one receptacle. The breaker held  .

I'm buying a lottery ticket...


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

99cents said:


> I finished an arc fault circuit today. Didn't pigtail once. Even back stabbed one receptacle. The breaker held  .
> 
> I'm buying a lottery ticket...


Pics or it's not true.:jester::laughing:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

samgregger said:


> Yes I know that, but any piece of metal can fail if you put enough current though it. I am just wondering at what point that tab would fail, I suspect higher than 20 amps.


20, 40, 60, 80 I will know on Sunday.


----------



## thoenew (Jan 17, 2012)

Pigtail, makes trim out much nicer.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

thoenew said:


> Pigtail, makes trim out much nicer.


I wonder if any companies have done any time test, no pigtail faster rough in but slower trim out versus pigtailing on rough in faster trim out?


----------



## chrisg9265 (Oct 9, 2013)

I believe it all depends on the application. I feel pigtails are the most sound way (and I mean joints/not wagos) simply because anything can happen...you won't loose the rest of the circuit...plus it's easier to identify the failure. I taped a receptacle today...I don't always...but it made me feel better...GFI in a metal cut-in...deep box but they're always narrow and I used Fclips. Rather be safe than POW!!! 

You know what they say...once you let the smoke out it won't work anymore...
=D

I also get stuff from the shop prepped and it's not always how I would do it but obviously the powers that be are happy with it...not my license. I've done a lot of service in my career and I was taught that once in the field for a while one should have a since of wiring ethics and should feel safe walking away.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

thoenew said:


> Pigtail, makes trim out much nicer.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

zac said:


> The problem I have for the stabbers is that when I do service calls the connection in the back may be engaged, but inside the device it is open...


 Yeah, but back-stabbing is just one method of feed through. You also have pressure plates and screw terminals. I agree, I am not a fan of back-stabbing, and it seems to have a higher-than-average failure rate.

My theory is that it generally gets used on jobs with very low margins where working quickly is essential, and maybe the skill level is lower-than-average. So maybe back-stabs aren't as tolerant of sloppy installation as other methods?


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Big John said:


> Yeah, but back-stabbing is just one method of feed through. You also have pressure plates and screw terminals. I agree, I am not a fan of back-stabbing, and it seems to have a higher-than-average failure rate.
> 
> My theory is that it generally gets used on jobs with very low margins where working where there's a lot of fast work, and maybe less-than-average skill, and maybe back-stabs aren't as tolerant of sloppy installation as other methods?


And tyically the lowest quality receptacles on the market.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

The test with crap qaulity photos, for a variety of reasons and no accompying IR.

60 amps for 90 seconds
60 amps for 120 seconds
150 amps for 60 60 seconds at that point the #12 AWG was to hot and set the insulating cardboard to smoking.

60 Amps



90 seconds well outside the longest opening time for a 20 amp circuit breaker (300% of rating a standard test for molded case circuit breakers, long time operation).




Ran it to 120 seconds copper # 12 was discoloring yet the termination screws on the receptacle showed no evidence of discoloring.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

150 amps



60 seconds



Same result cooper 312 AWG was losing tensil strenght and drooping had to hld the receptacle up to prevent the bare copper from shorting out n the test set.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

At about 10 seconds into the 150 amp test the cardboard was smoking the small bits of insulation left on the conductors were melting. If this was an actual fault and the circuit breaker had not opened at 150 amps you would have a fire in the wall while the receptacle terminations shows no sign of damage.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> I wonder if any companies have done any time test, no pigtail faster rough in but slower trim out versus pigtailing on rough in faster trim out?


I don't think it's faster overall but finishing is crunch time. Anything you can do during rough-in to speed up finishing is well worth it.

Personally, terminating three wires on a receptacle versus five isn't much of a time saver but we all have our way of doing things that works for us.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Fantastic test. I was working yesterday when I read about this and I was really tempted to try it, but I didn't want to steal your thunder.

Can you rip out the guts and hook one of those tabs to a primary tester and see at what point it _does _actually fuse?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Are you nervous nellies happy now? :laughing:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

99cents said:


> I don't think it's faster overall but finishing is crunch time. Anything you can do during rough-in to speed up finishing is well worth it.
> 
> Personally, terminating three wires on a receptacle versus five isn't much of a time saver but we all have our way of doing things that works for us.


In my day I could loop, hook and snug them down pretty fast.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> In my day I could loop, hook and snug them down pretty fast.


And, in your day, was this your cordless driver  ?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> Are you nervous nellies happy now? :laughing:


These devices are built to standards and there's no way that tab would fail before a breaker. It's interesting, though, that it could take that much current.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

So I step the current in about 25-50 amp steps 
When I reached 449.9 amps the tab between the two termination screws popped.

I also noticed at the start of this test that the plastic on the receptacle had started to melt during the 150 amp test


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Always wear your PPE


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

So to summarize: The feed-through tab on a receptacle will eventually fail after your house is already on fire because of the short circuit.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

99cents said:


> And, in your day, was this your cordless driver  ?


I had the Klein version of this for attaching the device to the box, but just a straight blade for everything else.

http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...CMDFx20140801x001&KPID=00944881000&kpid=28011


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

www.MikeHolt.com always shows pigtails,but he also shows scotch-lok connectors.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

bobelectric said:


> www.MikeHolt.com always shows pigtails,but he also shows scotch-lok connectors.


Up, down
Tape, don't tape
Pull EGC in EMT, don't pull a GEC in EMT
And a few others that are slipping my mind at this time.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

A Mike Holt groupie.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

bobelectric said:


> A Mike Holt groupie.


Mike is a very good businessman and has some excellent people working with him.


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I always feel like contracting is similar to being a cook - whatever you are prepared to spend is what I am going to cook for you.

Saying you never pigtail, is like saying you'd never cook a nice steak & potato dinner for the guy who is ready to drop $30-40 on a meal.

Saying you would never use the screws as a free-through is like saying you dont serve cheeseburgers & fries for $8.

Saying you would never backstab is like saying you wont cook 2 eggs over easy with toast & bacon for $4.50

Each person gets to decide for themselves what they want, and I'm ready to serve them.  Everybody has a preferred method of working, and you probably are required to follow a certain style at the company you work for - this is their "style of food" that they serve. But I feel like the smart businesses, especially if you are a contractor, is to be ready to serve the customer whatever dish it is that they are ready to buy.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> Up, down
> Tape, don't tape
> Pull EGC in EMT, don't pull a GEC in EMT
> And a few others that are slipping my mind at this time.


Set screw fittings, compression fittings.
SE cable, conduit.
MC cable, EMT.
Fuses, circuit breakers.
Isolate ground, common ground (but in fairness, there's only like one guy on the IG side. :whistling2


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

I never pigtailed two conductors for receptacles.
I never back stabbed.

By some standards I am a hack by others I am wasting money, I can't win.:laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> ...Saying you would never backstab is like saying you wont cook 2 eggs over easy with toast & bacon for $4.50...


 I wouldn't cook two eggs over-easy for free, god dammit.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Allright Brian , now to be fair, you should do the same testing on twisted wireing with a wire nut covering, just so we can see once and for all that using the screw terminals is a superior method to making pigtails, which I have had to suffer listening to for all these years........ My money is the wire nuts catch on fire or melt down prior to getting to 500 amps, even though the nut itself is not carrying any current.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Big John said:


> Set screw fittings, compression fittings.
> SE cable, conduit.
> MC cable, EMT.
> Fuses, circuit breakers.
> Isolate ground, common ground (but in fairness, there's only like one guy on the IG side. :whistling2


John, please don't include the SE cable/conduit in with all that little stuff. The other stuff has fusing. SE cable is a dangerous thing.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Loop thru boxes, continuous conductors , 

Time restraints, low budget job, end of the day . backstabbing


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> I have never seen backstabbing cause problems with arc fault breakers. Never. Crossed neutrals, neutrals touching grounds, black magic - Yes, but never from backstabbing.


In about 30 yrs from now , those backstabs might loosen up and trip an afci


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Allright Brian , now to be fair, you should do the same testing on twisted wireing with a wire nut covering, just so we can see once and for all that using the screw terminals is a superior method to making pigtails, which I have had to suffer listening to for all these years........ My money is the wire nuts catch on fire or melt down prior to getting to 500 amps, even though the nut itself is not carrying any current.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_dBep_55mI


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't install receptacles. That's an apprentices job.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

jza said:


> I don't install receptacles. That's an apprentices job.


I have, do and will, good enough for an apprentice good enough for me.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Big John said:


> So to summarize: The feed-through tab on a receptacle will eventually fail after your house is already on fire because of the short circuit.


:lol::lol:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Bad Electrician said:


> So I step the current in about 25-50 amp steps
> When I reached 449.9 amps the tab between the two termination screws popped.
> 
> I also noticed at the start of this test that the plastic on the receptacle had started to melt during the 150 amp test


I had to laugh when I saw that the tab carried 450 amps before failing. That's waaaaay more than I was expecting. :laughing:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

MTW said:


> I had to laugh when I saw that the tab carried 450 amps before failing. That's waaaaay more than I was expecting. :laughing:


That was an instantaneous test not constant current.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> I have, do and will, good enough for an apprentice good enough for me.


Oh God no.


----------



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> In about 30 yrs from now , those backstabs might loosen up and trip an afci


 you are right..it will give more work for someone else...


----------



## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

Elephante said:


> you are right..it will give more work for someone else...


Wow, just wow..........this kind of attitude is sad. I try to do my work to the best of my knowledge, and skills that have been acquired up to that point. It's like putting up some wallpacks and not sealing up the wall penetrations...

TWN


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

TheWireNut said:


> Wow, just wow..........this kind of attitude is sad. I try to do my work to the best of my knowledge, and skills that have been acquired up to that point. It's like putting up some wallpacks and not sealing up the wall penetrations...
> 
> TWN


You have to be able to read sarcasm in some post.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

@ Brian...
Just curious, what was the brand of the recep you tested?


----------



## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Loop thru boxes, continuous conductors ,
> 
> Time restraints, low budget job, end of the day . backstabbing


I've been doing ShockDoc's loop through method on the past few houses. I like it!

I have never come across a receptacle with a burned-apart tab only. Burned on the screws, melted wire nuts and insulation, yes. Especially old aluminum. Backstabs? Every week I locate a bad one causing a circuit to fail.


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Back in the 70's during the housing boom a contractor I worked for used nothing but the cheapest stuff. Slater receptacles with backstab only, no screws. I still have an old box of them in the shop. Junk.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> At about 10 seconds into the 150 amp test the cardboard was smoking the small bits of insulation left on the conductors were melting. If this was an actual fault and the circuit breaker had not opened at 150 amps you would have a fire in the wall while the receptacle terminations shows no sign of damage.


You need to change your name to great electrician! Thanks 

Would it be possible to test: WAGOs , back stab receptacles, twisted wirenut connections & non-twisted wirenut connections.?

I've been doing those tests with 20A loads but don't have the instrumentation you have access to. Those tests haven't been done by anyone that I'm aware of to date.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

FaultCurrent said:


> Back in the 70's during the housing boom a contractor I worked for used nothing but the cheapest stuff. Slater receptacles with backstab only, no screws. I still have an old box of them in the shop. Junk.


Guess what? In tract developments many still do.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> You need to change your name to great electrician! Thanks
> 
> Would it be possible to test: WAGOs , back stab receptacles, twisted wirenut connections & non-twisted wirenut connections.?
> 
> I've been doing those tests with 20A loads but don't have the instrumentation you have access to. Those tests haven't been done by anyone that I'm aware of to date.:thumbsup:


Remind me in a week, I have a very high pressure project going on that is stressing me to the max.


----------



## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> You have to be able to read sarcasm in some post.


Good call, it was a long day and that surely affected my interpretation. 

TWN


----------



## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

FaultCurrent said:


> Back in the 70's during the housing boom a contractor I worked for used nothing but the cheapest stuff. Slater receptacles with backstab only, no screws. I still have an old box of them in the shop. Junk.


I've pulled some of those out. They look weird when you remove the cover.....no side screws. Pulling it from the box reveals backstab only. :no: I guess the brass screws were too expensive to put on 

TWN


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

A Little Short said:


> @ Brian...
> Just curious, what was the brand of the recep you tested?


Levition.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

TheWireNut said:


> I've pulled some of those out. They look weird when you remove the cover.....no side screws. Pulling it from the box reveals backstab only. :no: I guess the brass screws were too expensive to put on
> 
> TWN


Hardly any plastic, hardly and size to them makes you wonder how much cnductiving material there was.


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> Remind me in a week, I have a very high pressure project going on that is stressing me to the max.


 If you're willing to do more free work for the rest of us, then thermometer and voltage drop readings would be valuable. I'll ship you Wagos if you don't have any lying around.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Almost always lurkin said:


> If you're willing to do more free work for the rest of us, then thermometer and voltage drop readings would be valuable. I'll ship you Wagos if you don't have any lying around.


I would use an IR camera, the voltage varies from about 5-15 Volts, FOP would not be useful.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

FaultCurrent said:


> Back in the 70's during the housing boom a contractor I worked for used nothing but the cheapest stuff. Slater receptacles with backstab only, no screws. I still have an old box of them in the shop. Junk.


Mant of those stab only receptacles are still functional and in use 45 years later.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Mant of those stab only receptacles are still functional and in use 45 years later.


But the doors on my last Chevy van became useless at 30,001 miles.......


We are doing it all wrong in the electric business it seems like sometimes.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Shockdoc said:


> Mant of those stab only receptacles are still functional and in use 45 years later.


In the average house.

The typical branch circuit (excluding appliance circuits) hardly sees any load, maybe a few 60-100 lamps, a fan, vacuum cleaner, X-box, TV and PC, hardly a large load. Many of the receptacles I would bet are rarely used or completely unused. 

Just a SWAG


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> In the average house.
> 
> The typical branch circuit (excluding appliance circuits) hardly sees any load, maybe a few 60-100 lamps, a fan, vacuum cleaner, X-box, TV and PC, hardly a large load. Many of the receptacles I would bet are rarely used or completely unused.
> 
> Just a SWAG


Tell that to some of the local electricians in my area that believe in multiple ,20 amp circuits in living rooms and bedrooms.


----------



## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

I'd say don't be a nice guy. Add nothing extra to the install that you think the customer might like. Sure enough, you'll get a complaint and end up servicing the damn thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


----------



## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


----------



## GatewaySparky (Jul 23, 2010)

GatewaySparky said:


> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


Sorry wrong thread

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I worked for a contractor that wired new homes exclusively and we stabbed everything. That was 14 years ago now and I'm sure some have failed, but more than likely the majority are still working fine.


----------



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

My home that was wired in the 70s were all backstabbed. I replaced every single receptacle and switch and only three I have found were burnt.. I think it was improperly installed.. The wire looked shorter than the others and barely were I inserted fully... Backstabbing isn't as bad as people make it seem.. I personally don't do it because I was trained differently. I have backstabbed when the loads were light and box overcrowded...I try to avoid if possible...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> So I step the current in about 25-50 amp steps
> When I reached 449.9 amps the tab between the two termination screws popped.
> 
> I also noticed at the start of this test that the plastic on the receptacle had started to melt during the 150 amp test



That's totally awesome! :thumbup: Something I would totally do.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I stab my end of the next run devices or stab a new extension out of a existing receptacle.


----------



## RandyM (Apr 5, 2012)

No choice here. Pigtail everything.


----------



## TTW (Sep 14, 2012)

I am doing a commercial job right now where the specifications actually require pigtails and expressly forbid through wiring.

Personally, I pigtail whenever possible, although I will use the screws, now with Bad Electricians excellent testing, I will feel just as good using the screws as pigtailing.

What I like about pigtailing is how easy trim out is.

Oh, and I will never ever:blink: backstab.

Hey Bad Electrician, it would be fantastic if you could test push in connectors, I just don't trust them. I would be happy to send you a few to melt if you don't have any.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> I stab my end of the next run devices or stab a new extension out of a existing receptacle.


You sir keep me in service on trouble calls. I salute you.


----------



## goldie32 (Sep 5, 2014)

You know what is funny? For those who say I never backstab and always pigtail. Then you use wagos for your tails. Crack open a plug and look inside. It is the same type of connection as a wago.


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

goldie32 said:


> You know what is funny? For those who say I never backstab and always pigtail. Then you use wagos for your tails. Crack open a plug and look inside. It is the same type of connection as a wago.


Must be nice to be able to afford to crack open a recepticle like some type of rich electrical king.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

goldie32 said:


> You know what is funny? For those who say I never backstab and always pigtail. Then you use wagos for your tails. Crack open a plug and look inside. It is the same type of connection as a wago.


No it's not the same.:no: The backstab doesn't have near the connection/contact area the Wago/push-in connectors have.
I have taken both apart and the Wago beats it hands down.
Plus, when you use the back stab on a receptacle, it is subject to move everytime you plug/unplug something. The Wago isn't subject to the same movement.

Full disclosure: It was actually an Ideal push-in connector that I took apart. But they are made the same or nearly so.


----------



## zac (May 11, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> No it's not the same.:no: The backstab doesn't have near the connection/contact area the Wago/push-in connectors have.
> I have taken both apart and the Wago beats it hands down.
> Plus, when you use the back stab on a receptacle, it is subject to move everytime you plug/unplug something. The Wago isn't subject to the same movement.
> 
> Full disclosure: It was actually an Ideal push-in connector that I took apart. But they are made the same or nearly so.


Well said.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Ultrafault said:


> Must be nice to be able to afford to crack open a recepticle like some type of rich electrical king.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


 
You got my October vote!


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

How about doing your magic on back stab receptacles and wagos Mr Bad Electrician.

If you do I'll nominate you for Electrician of the Month!


----------



## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

Wago
Wago
Wago....

Backstab
Backstab
Backstab....



Film 'em frying....

Put 'em all in an article... 

Become Sparky O D' Month, wear the T-Shirt and drink beer.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> How about doing your magic on back stab receptacles and wagos Mr Bad Electrician.
> 
> If you do I'll nominate you for Electrician of the Month!


It is in my folder of to do, but I am buried at present.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I understand and will still nominate you


----------



## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

goldie32 said:


> You know what is funny? For those who say I never backstab and always pigtail. Then you use wagos for your tails. Crack open a plug and look inside. It is the same type of connection as a wago.


What manufacturer? I didn't know there was a receptacle with a cage clamp termination.


----------



## TTW (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey Meadow,

Still interested in cooking up a nice wago stew?

If you have the time, I for one would really appreciate it!

Getting hungry just thinking about it...:001_huh:


----------



## ras electroid (Oct 22, 2014)

Pigtail is what i am taught


----------



## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

Always screw, and never daisey chain. Seen to many loose connections. Plug a heater in the last outlet of daisey chained circuit for years and you will see problems.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Big Pickles said:


> Always screw, and never daisey chain. Seen to many loose connections. Plug a heater in the last outlet of daisey chained circuit for years and you will see problems.


This is what can keep a Resi service company business busy. I say stab


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

TTW said:


> Hey Meadow,
> 
> Still interested in cooking up a nice wago stew?
> 
> ...




Yup! :laughing:


----------



## John Freeman (Oct 14, 2014)

TheWireNut said:


> What are the general practices that you do? Do you pigtail every receptical? Use the 4 screws and rely on the little tabs to carry the load of the downstream devices? Anyone have any good stories.....well we've all seen the stab-in-the-back fail  I'm talking just about wiring _through _verses _pigtailing. _What do you do with THHN stranded, always pigtail or saty-conns?
> 
> We were having this discussion at a large commercial job site over lunch, what are the thoughts here?
> 
> TWN


I have had excellent luck with the Ideal pigtails but they apparently are no longer available so I use the screws. If I am rushed I will backstab. Since they no longer accept #12 wire I am less concerned about their failing.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

In Canada there is actually a code rule that forbids through-wiring specifically on the neutral (4-036 (4): Where conductors of a multi-wire branch circuit are installed, employing an identified conductor, the continuity of the identified conductor shall be independent of device connections, such as lampholders, receptacles, ballasts, etc., so that devices may be disconnected without interrupting the continuity of the identified conductor). The idea being that if the receptacle is removed and the person removing it doesn't realize that the neutral is shared then you have an open neutral situation somewhere down the line. I, for one, feel that this is a best practice which I apply to all device installations, not just receptacles fed from multi-wire branch circuits. I also have a low opinion of both back-stabs and push-on wire connectors. I realize they are rated, but I think a pre-twisted splice with a hand-applied wire connector is better, and the mark of a good tradesman. I've seen drill-applied marrettes where one conductor poked right through the end! Take your time, do your job correctly and safely, take some pride in your work. Consistency breeds quality.


----------



## CoronadoBruin (Oct 29, 2009)

*I allow nothing but pigtails...*

and where there is a single line and screwed to a terminal, then it must have a connection of 75% of the circumference of the terminal screw, and clockwise, obviously. I never allow or accept stabbing as I've had connections come loose before the job has even been accepted by the owner/developer.

I specify taping with armor and/or metal boxes, or in commercial and multi-family situations. Often the owner/developer will nix the idea of taping in multi-famil situations for reasons of expense.

I know those tabs are engineered to take the load but I've had more than a few old electricians (I'm 57 and a GC/project manager/superintendent) say they don't trust them. I thought Bad Electrician's test was pretty cool and makes me feel much more comfortable with the tabs.

Never, ever stab. Period. Even in a cheesy single-family remodel.


----------



## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

*Backstabbers!*

I love this subject! It seems none of us ever tire of it. Ok, one guy's opinion. Pigtailing before feed through, screws and twisted wires with nuts before any kind of stabbed connection. I might do any of these depending on the job, and never say never. Any connection can be made badly. I've seen pretty much all of these fail, but when I pull out a stabbed device and the wires fall out of the back it makes me cringe so I almost never stab my devices. Daisy chaining allows more cumulative load on a loose connection, but the further out in the circuit you get, the less likely it is to make a difference. And on the subject of long lasting stab only devices, I used to have a girlfriend who would always say "why should I worry about smoking cigarettes, my grandma still smokes and she's 92" to which I would reply "yeah but where are all her friends?" It's just like how they rate bulb life. A 2000 hour bulb might last 5000, but some will be bad out of the box. A receptacle that is never used should last forever. Hey, who do I have to marry to become the electrical king?


----------



## DriveGuru (Jul 29, 2012)

B-Nabs said:


> In Canada there is actually a code rule that forbids through-wiring specifically on the neutral (4-036 (4): Where conductors of a multi-wire branch circuit are installed, employing an identified conductor, the continuity of the identified conductor shall be independent of device connections, such as lampholders, receptacles, ballasts, etc., so that devices may be disconnected without interrupting the continuity of the identified conductor). The idea being that if the receptacle is removed and the person removing it doesn't realize that the neutral is shared then you have an open neutral situation somewhere down the line. I, for one, feel that this is a best practice which I apply to all device installations, not just receptacles fed from multi-wire branch circuits. I also have a low opinion of both back-stabs and push-on wire connectors. I realize they are rated, but I think a pre-twisted splice with a hand-applied wire connector is better, and the mark of a good tradesman. I've seen drill-applied marrettes where one conductor poked right through the end! Take your time, do your job correctly and safely, take some pride in your work. Consistency breeds quality.



I agree with everything but the pre twisting  oops...that's another thread. Lol


----------



## Hometown (Jan 5, 2013)

TheWireNut said:


> What are the general practices that you do? Do you pigtail every receptical? Use the 4 screws and rely on the little tabs to carry the load of the downstream devices? Anyone have any good stories.....well we've all seen the stab-in-the-back fail  I'm talking just about wiring _through _verses _pigtailing. _What do you do with THHN stranded, always pigtail or saty-conns?
> 
> We were having this discussion at a large commercial job site over lunch, what are the thoughts here?
> 
> TWN


Hers the problem I've found multiple time with any type of feed through stab or screw...
Space heater on end of circuit, no damage to the receptacle it's plugged into, it's the receptacle that has a curtain or couch in front of it that, is left unnoticed until it's to late and then the smoke show starts..
10 years in residential thousands of receptacles with a " full tail". It takes one minute to tail a receptacle twisted wire and scotch lok. Nothing is fail proof but I was taught to do it right or not at all.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Hometown said:


> Hers the problem I've found multiple time with any type of feed through stab or screw...
> Space heater on end of circuit, no damage to the receptacle it's plugged into, it's the receptacle that has a curtain or couch in front of it that, is left unnoticed until it's to late and then the smoke show starts..
> 10 years in residential thousands of receptacles with a " full tail". It takes one minute to tail a receptacle twisted wire and scotch lok. Nothing is fail proof but I was taught to do it right or not at all.


When you speak of a scotch lok, what are you referring to? The scotch loks I am familiar with are for splicing tiny wires, like telephone or security.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

DesertDawg said:


> I love this subject!


Always the same _good,fast,cheap_ mentality Dawg

nothing on the market does all 3

~CS~


----------



## Hometown (Jan 5, 2013)

B-Nabs said:


> When you speak of a scotch lok, what are you referring to? The scotch loks I am familiar with are for splicing tiny wires, like telephone or security.


I call a 3m brand red/yellow, blue/orange, or blue gray a scotch lok. Not a wire nut. When I here wire nut I think of the cheap hard shell red or yellow connect or with no skirt.

At one point in time I think they had scotch lok somewhere on the jug. Must be where I got it from.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Hometown said:


> I call a 3m brand red/yellow, blue/orange, or blue gray a scotch lok. Not a wire nut. When I here wire nut I think of the cheap hard shell red or yellow connect or with no skirt.
> 
> At one point in time I think they had scotch lok somewhere on the jug. Must be where I got it from.


Hmm, I don't know that we even have those here, or if we do they're not common. The scotch loks I'm familiar with are an insulation displacement connector you crimp closed with your kleins, filled with anti-oxidant goo. Great for splicing tiny wires.


----------



## Hometown (Jan 5, 2013)

Hometown said:


> I call a 3m brand red/yellow, blue/orange, or blue gray a scotch lok. Not a wire nut. When I here wire nut I think of the cheap hard shell red or yellow connect or with no skirt.
> 
> At one point in time I think they had scotch lok somewhere on the jug. Must be where
> 
> ...


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

B-Nabs said:


> When you speak of a scotch lok, what are you referring to? The scotch loks I am familiar with are for splicing tiny wires, like telephone or security.


 Just about every wire connector that 3M makes is called a scotchlok.


----------



## lobstermasher (Apr 16, 2013)

*traveller story*

Just reading through this and thought I would share a foot in mouth story.

I trained in Vancouver , BC, Canada. They have an amendment(or did), requiring only one hot neutral and ground per device, so we pigtailed everything and I was told at BCIT, "only Americans through wire."

Well that turned out to be untrue. 

I was running a job in Ottawa Ontario shortly after moving there years later and passed by an apprentice through wiring a plug. I asked him WTF he was doing and who taught him to do it. He said the boss did. I asked how many plugs he had done that way. He said ALL of them......OMFG I thought we will have to redo all of them. 

And guess what I did (being a brilliant %$&*&*^)?

Yup call up the boss to ask him WTF he is doing teaching apprentices how to wire incorrectly.......he says well Scott I think that is how we do it here.......
Size 11 work boot tastes rather cruddy 

I am now working in New Brunswick and they also through wire here except for neutrals.....

I still prefer pigtails myself though.

Still trying to keep my mouth shut BTW.......with a bit more success these days.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I have no problem using the screws. It works. People get uppity about the silliest things.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

TGGT said:


> I have no problem using the screws. It works...


 If it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid.


----------



## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

We pigtail in most cases because we makeup with wagos before trim. Recepticals are tailed back at the shop and all ready to go. When the guys get to the job to trim its just like plugging in a lamp... Saves time and time is money. 

At the hospital we backstab because that's what they want, and for good reason. You never know when you will have to repair something you can't shut down. Much easier to just tape up the yoke and remove a backstab than it is to fiddle with a silly notion that a hooked screw is better. 

I have yet to see any single backstab fail... I guess I just know how to use a screwdriver correctly.


----------



## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

knomore said:


> We pigtail in most cases because we makeup with wagos before trim. Recepticals are tailed back at the shop and all ready to go. When the guys get to the job to trim its just like plugging in a lamp... Saves time and time is money.
> 
> At the hospital we backstab because that's what they want, and for good reason. You never know when you will have to repair something you can't shut down. Much easier to just tape up the yoke and remove a backstab than it is to fiddle with a silly notion that a hooked screw is better.
> 
> I have yet to see any single backstab fail... I guess I just know how to use a screwdriver correctly.


The backstabs people talk about don't have pressure plates you tighten with a screwdriver, it's a thin metal spring mechanism that is more prone to failure.


----------



## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

Back stab is not = to back wired. 2 different connections


----------



## Sparky48 (Dec 21, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Commercial I pigtail. Resi I use the screws on everything but the 12.


OK I give, if you don't use the screws for #12 how do you terminate the device???????


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Pssst - If I have two hots and two neutrals, I use the screws. If I have three and three, I backstab and Wago the grounds. Don't tell anyone, okay?


----------



## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

Why does everyone assume a connection made with wire nuts is better than one made with screws


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Galt said:


> Why does everyone assume a connection made with wire nuts is better than one made with screws


Because ummm, erm, duh...I dunno.


----------

