# UF cable cover requirements



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I've always figured 18" UF, 12" PVC, and 6" rigid but I don't see this on table 300.5

I'm digging a 120' trench in a residential yard to a shed , if I were to read the code book for this I would come up with 24" cover requirement. I'm just confused on this because I've done it dozens of time @18" and passed Inspection. What am I missing here ?

I would also like to drop a direct burial CAT cable in the trench but am unsure how to go about this. 

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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Sounds like the inspector made a mistake.

Generally 24" UF; 18" PVC; 6" Rigid.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Big John said:


> Sounds like the inspector made a mistake.
> 
> Generally 24" UF; 18" PVC; 6" Rigid.




Lol, wow! 24" trench for a 14/2 UF for a post light ? 

This definitely is going to change my future regarding trenches 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Lol, wow! 24" trench for a 14/2 UF for a post light ?
> 
> This definitely is going to change my future regarding trenches
> 
> ...


 GFCI protect it.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> GFCI protect it.




Are you talking about table 300.5 column 4 (120v or less with gfci protection) ? 

This column shows 12" 
*** note 4


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, if you're doing a single 20A GFCI circuit, you can get away with 12." 

I'd darn sure throw a warning ribbon 6" above it, though: Only way anyone ever finds UF is by hitting it with the shovel.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Big John said:


> Yeah, if you're doing a single 20A GFCI circuit, you can get away with 12."
> 
> I'd darn sure throw a locate ribbon 6" above it, though: Only way anyone ever finds UF is by hitting it with the shovel.




I always throw ribbon.... 

I'm running (3) 10/2 UF and (2) DB category cable 


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The numbers are for depth of COVER, so the trench has to be yet deeper, still.

Should you have to cross pavement, the minimum jumps to 24" of cover for all types....

Though this is often ducked in practice. ( residential driveways, hint, hint )

Extra depth is such a PITA that most fellas run GFI protected 20A branch circuits -- at 12" of cover.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> The numbers are for depth of COVER, so the trench has to be yet deeper, still.
> 
> Should you have to cross pavement, the minimum jumps to 24" of cover for all types....
> 
> ...




All 3 of my circuits are GFCI protected. Now that I think about it I don't think I've ever buried a non-gfci protected circuit 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What are you running 3 separate 10/2 UF's to a shed for?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I always throw ribbon....
> 
> I'm running (3) 10/2 UF and (2) DB category cable
> 
> ...


Sounds like time for some pvc .......................
Maybe run a small feeder and set a small panel. Your going to need disconnecting means on those 3 UF cables anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The underlined part applies here:

*II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a
Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)

225.30 Number of Supplies.* A building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side
of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only
one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A)
through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire
branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional
buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to
the original building or structure, unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E).

(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits
shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of
supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability

(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional
feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either
of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space
available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to
make two or more supplies necessary

(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or branch
circuits shall be permitted where the capacity requirements
are in excess of 2000 amperes at a supply voltage of 1000
volts or less.

(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or
branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages,
frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations.

(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders
or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply installations
under single management where documented safe
switching procedures


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Even ignoring the code issues with multiple circuits, you'd have a lot more capacity if you ran #4 or #2 aluminum USE and set a little 4 or 6 pole panel.

The wire would definitely be cheaper than 450' of copper, so you'd probably break even by the time you bought the panel and ground rods.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What are you running 3 separate 10/2 UF's to a shed for?




Well I need to edit that ...

(1) is a 12/2 that's stopping at a pergola for lights , outlets , fan, tv, etc (about 70' from panel)

(2) 10/2 are going to a shed that will have lights , and receptacles that will be powering saws, and other power tools. These are 20A circuits with over 120' of distance I've upsized to account for voltage drop


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

No way in the world I would use UF cable for this. PVC all the way.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MTW said:


> No way in the world I would use UF cable for this. PVC all the way.




I wouldn't on my house either! 

I gave him his options ...and told him the benefits of PVC 

PVC/THHN is more expensive , he opted out...

Nothing I can do when someone has a budget. 

The job isn't as expensive as it sounds because he is a sprinkler installer and has a trencher , so the digging is on him. I'm fine with this...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I wouldn't on my house either!
> 
> I gave him his options ...and told him the benefits of PVC
> 
> ...


I agree. If he is being cheap, slap that UF in and call it a day.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why 2 10-2 instead of 1 10-3?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I was briefly watching that man lady on tv that lives up on the Tundra in Alaska talking about how she had to dig a 6'' deep trench so she could bury some electrical cables so she could electrify her fuel pumps instead of gas powered pumps. I made sure to tell the Alaskan NEC authorities about it so they got the dog sleds ready and left on the 6 month journey to put a stop to it. None too soon if you were to ask me........


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why 2 10-2 instead of 1 10-3?


Exactly !


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> I was briefly watching that man lady on tv that lives up on the Tundra in Alaska talking about how she had to dig a 6'' deep trench so she could bury some electrical cables so she could electrify her fuel pumps instead of gas powered pumps. I made sure to tell the Alaskan NEC authorities about it so they got the dog sleds ready and left on the 6 month journey to put a stop to it. None too soon if you were to ask me........


She gets +12" of cover by way of ice and snow.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Just curious - how much difference in price are you figuring with 

2 x 10/2 UF to garage 
1 x 12/2 UF to pergola 
24" trench

vs 

60' 1" PVC to pergola 
60' 1" PVC to garage 
5 x #10 THWN through pergola box to garage 
2 x #12 THWN to pergola 
18" trench

because I am coming out very close in price with a free trench. (If you were paying for the trench, maybe even tip cheaper in PVC?) The deluxe upsell would be RMC, not PVC, PVC is the right way to go on a budget. Burying the cables is a mistake. 

If you use the MWBC and 10/3 to the shop, which is really the only way to go, there's a little more difference but still chump change. Unless I'm miscalculating, I'm just doing the maths in my head. 

People who are building pergolas are not poor. In the big picture of the project it's peanuts. You should be able to sell him the PVC conduit. Present that as the cheaper option compared to RMC. Doesn't he want to be able to put a receptacle out there for a welder? Maybe a heater? Maybe he can dig the trench cheap but he'll be pissed if he has to dig up the lawn to do an upgrade or maintenance in the future. 

I would never have even brought up doing it direct burial. Now that the cat's out of the bag I might do it as a free upgrade just so I don't have to strip UF. Friends don't let friends bury cables.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As much as I like getting paid to find and fix UF nightmares, I don't think I'd even give UF as an option for new. 150 feet on a GFCI doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either. I remember seeing a suggested limitation in the instructions of CH GFCI breaker once, though I've forgotten what the number was.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Why 2 10-2 instead of 1 10-3?




I've never gotten into the method of sharing neutrals for separate circuits... 

i'm not saying there is something wrong with it , I've just never done it this way. 

I came up in the commercial/heavy construction end.. I've personally never seen this done in large building circuitry 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I've never gotten into the method of sharing neutrals for separate circuits...
> 
> i'm not saying there is something wrong with it , I've just never done it this way.
> 
> ...


 It would be no different in your situation then if you ran a typical feeder. The end result is exactly the same. Plus, running two separate branch circuits is against code. 

As for the last part, you're saying that you did commercial work yet you never saw three phase multiwire branch circuits being common?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> It would be no different in your situation then if you ran a typical feeder. The end result is exactly the same. Plus, running two separate branch circuits is against code.
> 
> As for the last part, you're saying that you did commercial work yet you never saw three phase multiwire branch circuits being common?




3-phase wiring with neutrals ? Sharing neutrals ? No I do not recall that ever..

Every hot circuit I ran that had a neutral had to be numbered with a numbered corresponding neutral 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I've never gotten into the method of sharing neutrals for separate circuits...
> 
> i'm not saying there is something wrong with it , I've just never done it this way.
> 
> ...


To me it's far more common in commercial-industrial than any where else in this trade.

Don't take this as ball busting but sometimes reading your posts on what you have quoted you would be much better off coming here first for advice and along before you write things up, a second set of experiences can save a lot of time messing around.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> I've never gotten into the method of sharing neutrals for separate circuits...
> 
> i'm not saying there is something wrong with it , I've just never done it this way.
> 
> I came up in the commercial/heavy construction end.. I've personally never seen this done in large building circuitry


Wait...what?  For the cost and labor of a double run of 10/2 UF cable, you could easily have one PVC conduit with 4 individual conductors. There is no need whatsoever to do it the way you've described.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> To me it's far more common in commercial-industrial than any where else in this trade.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take this as ball busting but sometimes reading your posts on what you have quoted you would be much better off coming here first for advice and along before you write things up, a second set of experiences can save a lot of time messing around.




I agree with you on that...

As far as the neutrals I'm certain this is how we ran things in hospitals....at least I've done it this way all the time.... I pulled a neutral with every hot line.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun, that is simply outrageous. Whoever you did that for taught you the wrong way.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MTW said:


> Wait...what?  For the cost and labor of a double run of 10/2 UF cable, you could easily have one PVC conduit with 4 individual conductors. There is no need whatsoever to do it the way you've described.




Maybe I'm missing something here. 

I get to the job open up a 250' coil of 10/2 UF ... unwind it into the ground .....Done

With PVC 
I unload the truck..., piece together and cement the whole pipe run
(2-3 hrs ? Maybe)

Now I have to set up my thhn coils or custom cuts , unwind them....send my fiberglass snake though (apprentice? maybe , maybe not)

I don't know about you but my price comes out to more with PVC....


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> WronGun, that is simply outrageous. Whoever you did that for taught you the wrong way.




I'm so confused here ....

So you have an operating room with multiple circuits throughout.... your saying it's practice to pull back only 1 neutral to the panel for 2 or more or how ever many hot lines ? 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I'm so confused here ....
> 
> So you have an operating room with multiple circuits throughout.... your saying it's practice to pull back only 1 neutral to the panel for 2 or more or how ever many hot lines ?
> 
> ...


 Yes, hospitals are just like any other commercial job. If you need three circuits it's common to run three hots and a neutral. 

As for what you said to MTW about PVC, it doesn't take two or three hours to glue together 15 sticks of PVC, I could do that in about eight minutes if I had a helper holding the glue. You walk out with the PVC on your shoulder and drop a stick every 10 feet right next to the trench, then you walk back and glue them together, then you slide the whole thing into the trench.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Yes, hospitals are just like any other commercial job. If you need three circuits it's common to run three hots and a neutral.
> 
> As for what you said to MTW about PVC, it doesn't take two or three hours to glue together 15 sticks of PVC, I could do that in about eight minutes if I had a helper holding the glue. You walk out with the PVC on your shoulder and drop a stick every 10 feet right next to the trench, then you walk back and glue them together, then you slide the whole thing into the trench.




Like I said in the first post about this... I'm not doubting you, I've just never done this....every circuit I pulled it was required to have a numbered corresponding Neutral on branch circuits. 

I don't know if it was something adjusted by Hospital PM's in my city because they would go above and beyond on certain things for sake of facilities/maintenance crews... I don't know... but I would definitely remember this...

As far as PVC .... it's not a straight run.. there are some turns.... I'm not trying to break down the minutes here ....but in my world the pvc way takes longer and uses more material than dropping some UF lines in the ground... therefore , I charge for it.....

I know what's better , I know what I would do.. 

the customer wasn't completely clueless ... he was aware of the methods.... I explained my thoughts on PVC and why it's better and did say it will cost more.... not a whole lot more , but more .....

My main point was future expansion potential with PVC.... he completely disregarded it .... idk

I will try to sell it again before the finalization, because I agree ... ofcourse it's the better way ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Like I said in the first post about this... I'm not doubting you, I've just never done this....every circuit I pulled it was required to have a numbered corresponding Neutral on branch circuits.
> 
> I don't know if it was something adjusted by Hospital PM's in my city because they would go above and beyond on certain things for sake of facilities/maintenance crews... I don't know... but I would definitely remember this...
> 
> ...


As others have mentioned, I just don't think PVC will take much longer, and I have done a lot of both methods. I have some of the biggest malls in the country in my area and I have done tens of thousands of feet of site lighting, and I could tell you right now that I would rather throw PVC together than deal with a heavy coil of 250 10 gauge UF.

As for the 2 runs of 10-2, you can't do that if you are getting inspected or care about code. Running a 10-3 MWBC to the shed is the same as running a typical 120/240V feeder. It's the right way to do it, and in your case it's the only way.

Yes, some places might spec no MWBC's, but the fact that you have never seen them in commercial work is really mind boggling. I spent a total of around 6 years working in 4 different hospitals and never ran a neutral for every hot nor did I see any existing work like that. 

In the end, I just want you to realize that there is nothing wrong with it.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> As others have mentioned, I just don't think PVC will take much longer, and I have done a lot of both methods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Definitely good to know ... it's a method I will look into using....

This job is definitely being inspected , so I will be using it here 


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

WronGun said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here.
> 
> I get to the job open up a 250' coil of 10/2 UF ... unwind it into the ground .....Done
> 
> ...


2-3hrs for 12 sticks of pvc???
Are you huffing the glue? Lol

No primer, just glue the sh×t together....

Not a straight run? You can bend it to a 90

Id use 3/4 pvc, you can easily pull 4 wires #10. So now ot just got a bit cheaper👍

That UF is and will be heavy and stripping it will take longer than gluing pvc and pulling the thhn.

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Just bring the 10-3 into a deep 1900 box. Install a mud ring and a 2-pole 20A rated toggle switch. Use the switch to disconnect both hots and wirenut the 3 neutrals together.

If you draw it out it ends up being the same as if you landed the 10-3 in a subpanel and took 2 branch circuits out of the panel.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am running 4-4 urd and putting a panel in the shed. Then feeding the lights out of that. Way cheaper and not wasting all the panel space in the home.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Wrongun you know you don't have to put straps on the buried part of the conduit right?  

All good info above. I'd also remember if you are going to put a tape over the buried cable, which you should, that's another waste of time and another small cost. 

Remember, the service itself with 120/240 split phase is one big MWBC.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> Wrongun you know you don't have to put straps on the buried part of the conduit right?
> 
> All good info above. I'd also remember if you are going to put a tape over the buried cable, which you should, that's another waste of time and another small cost.
> 
> Remember, the service itself with 120/240 split phase is one big MWBC.




Yes I understand about the service being a MWBC...

Why is the ribbon a waste of time , it's needed for inspection anyways...

I was going to install PVC with ground supports , staked down with 7/8" strut and tie wire.......Kidding , lol 

This is what I used to do to keep the PVC from lifting during a concrete pour 


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Yes I understand about the service being a MWBC...
> 
> *Why is the ribbon a waste of time , it's needed for inspection anyways...*
> 
> ...


No it is not only for SE conductors. Still a good idea.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I am running 4-4 urd and putting a panel in the shed. Then feeding the lights out of that. Way cheaper and not wasting all the panel space in the home.



Are you direct burying the URD or putting it in pipe? I pretty sure the 4/4 URD is probably cheaper than 10/3 UF as well.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Are you direct burying the URD or putting it in pipe? I pretty sure the 4/4 URD is probably cheaper than 10/3 UF as well.


Just direct bury it at 24. This allows for future expansion in that tool shed. Not a ton but some and I bet the price difference is nil.
Now if there was a chance of a driveway I probably would run PVC and thhw AL.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Why is the ribbon a waste of time , it's needed for inspection anyways.


I consider the ribbon necessary with buried cable whether it's required or not, it's just going to waste time waiting for him to half fill the ditch so you can run the tape.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Maybe my terminology is off but isn't URD similar or the same as Triplex ? No idea this could be buried ?

I just did a google image search for URD looks just like the coil of triplex I have


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Maybe my terminology is off but isn't URD similar or the same as Triplex ? No idea this could be buried ?
> 
> I just did a google image search for URD looks just like the coil of triplex I have
> 
> ...


URD stands for "Underground residential distribution" and is rated for direct burial. Triplex is for a service where you only need 3 conductors. What you need in this case is "Mobile home feeder" cable version of URD, it has the required 4 conductors.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> URD stands for "Underground residential distribution" and is rated for direct burial. Triplex is for a service where you only need 3 conductors. What you need in this case is "Mobile home feeder" cable version of URD, it has the required 4 conductors.


Yea actually URD can not go inside the home I can't remember what I usually use.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea actually URD can not go inside the home I can't remember what I usually use.


I've seen both kinds. They do make a dual rated version that can go inside.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sweet briar.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't think I have ever seen URD installed, except for maybe on the POCO side. Do each of the wires have a marker for identification?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here.
> 
> I get to the job open up a 250' coil of 10/2 UF ... unwind it into the ground .....Done
> 
> ...


Sorry, I missed this post. 

Yes, UF is faster in some situations, I'll give you that. I'm not sure where you are, but our soil conditions here (rocky, filled with roots, frost heaves) is very unkind to direct buried methods. UF has fallen out of favor in my area for this reason, so that's why I always recommend and use pipe for all but the smallest of exceptions (post light, landscape lights, short runs, etc)

For long runs I never use a snake. I vacuum a string through, and pull a rope if necessary. I have a wire rack and set up the spools quickly as well.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> I don't think I have ever seen URD installed, except for maybe on the POCO side. Do each of the wires have a marker for identification?



Yes. For me, it's a no-brainer. It's already assembled, it's phase marked, it's cheap, light and it glides through conduit like greased lightning.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You've got a trivial PVC run that can be buried at 12" of COVER ( hence you need 14" of trench if it's GFI protected. )

The way to whip this stuff out is to glue up the PVC back at your truck/van street-side into twenty-foot// thirty-foot elements. Then drag them to final assembly and lay them in the ditch.

My style is to oversize the PVC a tad as then fishing and pulling go extra easy, so 1" for me.

Unless it's a sharp bend, PVC will tolerate a fair amount of forced bending. ( in warm weather )

Forget the warning ribbon, just use clean back-fill. 

Absolutely you want to run this as a MWBC. 

If the loading will get large, consider jumping to #8. 

It's AMAZING how loads grow back out at the shed.

A pergola with trivial LED lighting loads can easily get by with #12.

UF is a labor pig, IMHO.

My style for receptacles back out in the landscaping is to use IMC as the last stick in the run... use a (5) hubbed (3/4") 2-Gang deep WP box... with a straight shaft of IMC running down into a puddle of concrete to anchor it, just so... and the other hub stuffed with a quarter - turn ninety that transitions to PVC to feed the box.

This scheme gets one entirely away from design headaches WRT how to mount the WP box while making the effort clean, quick and Code worthy... and without exotic materials.

You can plop this scheme anywhere it's not a trip hazard... and it will look fine... even years down the road.

As for the shed end, it's often the case that the customer is only ever going to use the power connection in decent weather, for this or that project.

So rather than deluxe it up, just set the afore mentioned 2-gang box nearby and exterior to the shed... with an in-use bubble cover.

This way you don't get involved in setting a GEC System for the shed, nor penetrating its exterior wall, nor performing a whole lot of hand digging where the raceway merges with the shed.

He's got his power out their where he wants it... and you're in and out of there in double-quick time.

Wrongun, you didn't address how to transition from the home panel to the U/G run.

That aspect of this job can be a real labor burn... I'd figure it to dominate this job.

Keeping an open mind, many's the time that a slinky run of Sealtite can get you from PVC to the inside of a basement -- ultra fast. 

Sealtite is Code worthy above, below, and encased in concrete. A few feet of Sealtite can eliminate a TON of filthy ditching at the foundation. It's perfect for nasty transitions where straight pipe or factory nineties are not going to lay-in.

{ Think: rubble foundations, complex bends, etc. }

STOP focussing on minor materials -- zone in on ease of your build -- elegance.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Running a 10/3 for a mwbc to the shed would make it legal and help with vd slightly too.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I agree with you on that...
> 
> As far as the neutrals I'm certain this is how we ran things in hospitals....at least I've done it this way all the time.... I pulled a neutral with every hot line.
> 
> ...


I'm so used to MWBCs I have done them one every job of my own and or working PT for others resi and commercial.

Just the thought of running two separate 2 wire romex home runs sounds crazy to me as opposed to one 3 wire run.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yes, hospitals are just like any other commercial job. If you need three circuits it's common to run three hots and a neutral.
> 
> As for what you said to MTW about PVC, it doesn't take two or three hours to glue together 15 sticks of PVC, I could do that in about eight minutes if I had a helper holding the glue. Y*ou walk out with the PVC on your shoulder and drop a stick every 10 feet right next to the trench, then you walk back and glue them together, then you slide the whole thing into the trench.*


Looking back I can't imagine not running MWBCs, that is really crazy thinking.


*That is exactly how I would do the pipe in the trench and sometime seven pull the conductors leaving a coil on each en dto finsih up once it's droppe din the ground.*


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Like I said in the first post about this... I'm not doubting you, I've just never done this....every circuit I pulled it was required to have a numbered corresponding Neutral on branch circuits.
> 
> I don't know if it was something adjusted by Hospital PM's in my city because they would go above and beyond on certain things for sake of facilities/maintenance crews... I don't know... but I would definitely remember this...
> 
> ...


You are way too young to be so set in your ways that you always seem to think you know more than the collection of more experienced journeymen here.

Bashing your head in with labor intensive methods isn't productive or healthy for your business.

There are so many years of experience on this forum to help you see the more effective ways of doing things, make use of the experience that other guys don't get the chance to use.

Everyone i see here commenting on all your threads is looking to show you easier more effective work methods.

Pride is great but set it aside when it injures your bottom line.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sometimes using scare tactics work (in an ethical way).

In a situation like this, I would pull the guy to the side and talk to him about this, being clear that the underground work is not warrantied and that _when_ something happens in a few years or possibly a few months, it will be very expensive to locate the issue and fix it. I would be clear that fixing it would cost many times more than just doing it right in the first place. And I would also make sure he knows that even after one issue is fixed, another one can happen 30 feet away.

This is why I like using email, I would write it out just like above so that he can read it and pay attention, unlike the way some people do when you speak to them (usually they are just waiting for their turn to speak so they can tell you how smart they are). It would also be on record so he can't complain if it stops working in 8 months after a cold Winter.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

this thread makes my head hurt


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

wrongun said:


> with pvc
> i unload the truck..., piece together and cement the whole pipe run
> (2-3 hrs ? Maybe)
> 
> ...


what??


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You are way too young to be so set in your ways that you always seem to think you know more than the collection of more experienced journeymen here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm set in my ways ? Why would i be here asking for advice if that was the case 

I completely disagree .... I'm not nearly experienced as most people here and will clearly admit that.... I'm learning as I go....

Ive spent 10+ yrs (including apprenticeship) in the trade and this first year working for myself is where I've learned the most and continue to learn everyday improving my methods..

Unfortunately on large projects as a JM your only fed tiny pieces of work at a time , so it's very hard to put the big picture together.. probably why a lot of things are new to me now ? I spent a whole 2 yrs running 500-600kcmil MI cable which has helped me in no way at my current game, But I Am very good in all sizes of MI all the way to 18/2 with shield 

Some things I'm not sure about so i ask here , but I don't think I can post on every single job I do looking for better methods so my learning curve will be stretched, so I plan on learning some things the harder way..

With that said , I appreciate all the help and wouldn't have completed a number of jobs without some of the help from the guys on this forum 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Wrongun, you didn't address how to transition from the home panel to the U/G run.

The panel is in the garage...Originally i was thinking to sleeve up with an LB into a box in garage beside the panel and then nipple into the panel with EMT....

Again, this was my first thought and seemed logical...

But I'm going to try to push the full pvc run once again.....


Okk....I also need to figure out how to quote a part of someone's thread ..

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You can run the UG right into the panel, no need for the box and EMT.

I typically just use a piece of pipe with an LB at the end of it to sleeve the UG up the wall. I will drill a hole for the hub of the LB to fit into the wall and let it end right there.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> I'm set in my ways ? Why would i be here asking for advice if that was the case
> 
> I completely disagree .... I'm not nearly experienced as most people here and will clearly admit that.... I'm learning as I go....
> 
> ...



When you post things like: "I know what's better , I know what I would do.. "
you come off as cocky and not wanting advice.

To blow off MWBCs because you ran separate neutrals in the past is a prime example.

The time you think it would take you to run pvc in a trench is 3x as long as it should take but the method Hacks described is a fast way to get it done.

Only looking to give you some constructive criticism not trying to bust your balls.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Reading comprehension please !!

When did I post I know what's better? 

When did I post I know I would do ?

If I didn't want advice , I wouldn't be asking for it ...

When did I blow off MWBC's? 

I simply said I have never done it, and not familiar with it..and was open to the method 


Please read the goddamn post !


I don't know it all , and I take everyones advice , I also don't care for people putting words in my mouth....

I read your first post and responded, I don't need to read it twice ....

I like all criticism equally, but ya now your busting balls and I will point that out..But it's ok ... I don't mind my balls busted , but I will fire back especially when you apparently didn't read my words , just maybe skimmed over them ?

The job has been fully completed in PVC and at a higher co$t

Faster , slower , whatever .... it's better , so I charge more... that's how I do business...call me Cocky in that sense and I'll take it and smile...

I still like you though , nothing you could say could make me not like you DVR


Now, Back to Business ......

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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm late to the weekly Wrongun madness.

I about fell off my chair with the 2-3 hrs to run 12 sticks of PVC.
But maybe that includes threading all the ends.

Not sharing neutrals.
I knew the day would come when newer a newer generation of electricians would look back at our code compliant work, much of it has been legally for over a century, and proclaim it's not safe. Not because of a new revolution. More just from a lack of training and experience of doing it that way. Now they want everything on a GFCI, ark fault, un-shared neutral, and cable. What more can we add to make it a PITA, unreliable, and inefficient. How about motion detectors on the shed that cut off all power to the structure? Or connect the outside light to a wifi box that controls the lamp with a phone app?

BTW don't forget to use a 2 pole breaker (GFI ?) if your using a 2 pole toggle for the shed disco.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I could see MWBC's becoming unpopular since the 2008 code change of requiring handle ties or 2-pole breakers. People don't want 2 or 3 circuits to go out if one trips or needs to be shut down.

I was just about out of the commercial side of the trade when the 2008 code came into effect here so I didn't see the transition first hand.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

active1 said:


> I'm late to the weekly Wrongun madness.
> 
> I about fell off my chair with the 2-3 hrs to run 12 sticks of PVC.
> But maybe that includes threading all the ends.
> ...




Lol, I love madness 

I got nothing against the whole neutral thing... I'm just sharing my experience with the particular work I've done in numerous big city Hospitals , I have never shared a neutral... however I just did on this latest job thanks to you guys , I passed inspect on first round....

On the PVC thing ... yes 150' or so of pipe, some turns , risers, angles, setting up thhn , pulling the THHN. (I did mention the whole job not just slapping glue on a stick, lol

The whole job in comparison with uncoiling some UF and dropping it in a hole ..... come on ?!?! 


I didn't draw this out with the exact time.... I was just saying it's gonna take longer than the UF way.... 

I won't be asking you guys to help me estimate PVC runs ! Lol , apparently I'm not as fast as you..

Anyways , this thread has been great !


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I could see MWBC's becoming unpopular since the 2008 code change of requiring handle ties or 2-pole breakers. People don't want 2 or 3 circuits to go out if one trips or needs to be shut down.
> 
> I was just about out of the commercial side of the trade when the 2008 code came into effect here so I didn't see the transition first hand.




And this I could definitely see being enforced in hospitals of all places ...


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

WronGun said:


> On the PVC thing ... yes 150' or so of pipe, some turns , risers, angles, setting up thhn , pulling the THHN. (I did mention the whole job not just slapping glue on a stick, lol
> 
> The whole job in comparison with uncoiling some UF and dropping it in a hole ..... come on ?!?!


Still dont take no 2-3 hours. Lol

But at least now you learned the benefits of doing it this way.

We are constantly running feeds 100ft plus 18in deep then you have post lights and the pool light and the occasional outlet out in nowhere. Still only takes about an hour to assemble the pvc and pull the wires with 2 guys.

Plus if theres ever a problem down the road its much easier to deal with



Texting and Driving


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

trentonmakes said:


> Still dont take no 2-3 hours. Lol
> 
> But at least now you learned the benefits of doing it this way.
> 
> ...




I've been working alone lately ... that's one of my downfalls... I have the on call help when I need, but I'm nervous to give someone 40 hrs.. I'm unsure how to set that up because some days for example I have 2-3 small service calls and 2-3 estimates.... what am I going to do with another guy on a day like that ........ anyways probably another thread to start 


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

You need a contractor or someone too keep ya busy and feed ya work.

We do 80% of the pools for 1 of the areas biggest pool builders and 2 building contractors we work for.
Keeps us busy plus the occassional odd jobs but we only take bigger stuff. No service calls, unless its for 1 of our customers and no adding an outlet here or there. Thats how i pick up side work
Theres been days i finish early, and go do site inspections or drop off permits too fill the time.

Texting and Driving


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> I've been working alone lately ... that's one of my downfalls... I have the on call help when I need, but I'm nervous to give someone 40 hrs.. I'm unsure how to set that up because some days for example I have 2-3 small service calls and 2-3 estimates.... what am I going to do with another guy on a day like that ........ anyways probably another thread to start
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Getting too aggressive in a growth phase has been the downfall of MANY a budding contractor.

You need to keep building:

Your contacts -- in all directions.

Your working capital... 

&&&

It's EASY for every single employee to absorb $60,000 in working capital. 

This reality almost ALWAYS astonishes noob contractors.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I'd slap 10-3 uf in the trench with pvc stubs and lb's on either side for the shed, and 12-2 uf for the pergola. I wouldn't bother running pipe to a shed with 2 20a circuits in it. Run tye UF like romex once inside each structure, no emt or boxes. The pvc is just a sleeve in that case so staple within 6" on either end and go to town. You can sleeve the 10-3 and 12-2 in the same stub up pvc at the garage to keep it clean. Easy peasy.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Going_Commando said:


> I'd slap 10-3 uf in the trench with pvc stubs and lb's on either side for the shed, and 12-2 uf for the pergola. I wouldn't bother running pipe to a shed with 2 20a circuits in it. Run tye UF like romex once inside each structure, no emt or boxes. The pvc is just a sleeve in that case so staple within 6" on either end and go to town. You can sleeve the 10-3 and 12-2 in the same stub up pvc at the garage to keep it clean. Easy peasy.


120 ft trench to a pergola and then a shed?
PVC all the way.

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Earlier I mentioned the big problem with running PVC, having to bend over to put the glue and tray of fittings down every 10'. That's why I recommended a helper to hold it while you walk down the line gluing the sticks together and dropping it into the trench. 120' should take about 8 minutes that way. 

When you get to obstacles or direction changes, since you have a tray full of fittings (90's, 45's, 30's, 11-1/4's) you can get around them in about 30 seconds each. Your LBs plus some straps, screws, and a little impact gun are also in the tray so you can finish the pipe run up each side.

This is what I was talking to flyboy about the other day. He makes up big job "kits" on pallets, I do the same thing with small jobs in trays/totes. When I walked out that 120' I would have everything I need with me instead of having to make 4 trips back to the van for the little things. That really adds up to saved time and energy.

Now that the pipe run is done, you drop the little rack, or milk crate, or cart with the THHN on it near one end, you then use the vacuum to suck a plastic bag tied to dragline in the other end. Tie on the wire, pull it in, profit.

To me, that's easier than dealing with a stiff, heavy coil of 10-3 UF cable.


Mr Going_Commando, you said "_I wouldn't bother running pipe to a shed with 2 20a circuits in it._". What's the difference between that and a 50A feeder? Hell, the #10 would be more susceptible to breakage, so it's even more of a reason to run pipe. In both cases you would have to locate and dig up the breakage.


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