# Help with bonding Service entry & Sub Panels



## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

This is driving me nuts. I have a home inspector asking me if this is legal. I haven't gone to see it yet but I want to know the correct way to wire it. 

On the outside there is a meter base. To the right of the meter base is a 200A switch. To the left of the Meterbase is a 16 circuit panel and inside the house is a 40 circuit main lug panel. 

I can't find the ground rod, but the outside 16 circuit panel is bonded to the neutral bus bar and the neutrals and grounds are together in that panel. It has 3 wires, 2 hots and a neutral.

The inside panel has 4 wires and the neutrals and grounds are separate. I thought the outside 16 circuit panel would have to have the neutrals and grounds separate as well. I know this is 101 but I must be looking at it too hard! Can I get some help? 

Thanks! -John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

that panel with 16 circuits has a main breaker in it, right?

If so, then everything is set up correctly. You have two service disconnects, you are allowed to have up to six. The neutral and ground is bonded in these disconnects.

This is very similar to a two family house service.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Thanks for helping me! No! The 16 circuit panel does not have a main breaker. It's main lug.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Then if it has more than five circuits in it something is wrong. 

Is there any chance that panel is fed by the 200 amp disconnect through the meter?

Even then, it would still be wrong since the panel needs separate grounds and neutrals.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

bantar1000 said:


> Thanks for helping me! No! The 16 circuit panel does not have a main breaker. It's main lug.


The wiring is correct but the 16 space panel needs a means to,disconnect,it because there are more than 6 breakers. Is it a split bus?

Even if it is, that would still make 7 disconnects.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Okay, so in that 16 CIRCUIT box, there are only 5 double pole receptacles. So only 5 switches in there. 

I assume that the 16 circuit box is powered by the 200A disconnect switch through the meter base.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If there’s only five breakers in the panel, then it makes sense. Both the 200 amp disconnect and the panel are the service disconnects connected separately to the meter. That’s why neutral is bonded to ground in both.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

You would still need an GEC


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

The GEC should come out of the Meter right? and go to a ground rod? I'm hoping there's one there and I just can't see it.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

bantar1000 said:


> The GEC should come out of the Meter right? and go to a ground rod? I'm hoping there's one there and I just can't see it.


Ideally, yes, but it is up to the utility if they allow the GEC in the meter can. Most often, you take one to each disconnect.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bantar1000 said:


> The GEC should come out of the Meter right? and go to a ground rod? I'm hoping there's one there and I just can't see it.


As mentioned above, that is up to the utility if they allow it.

Mine does not. We bring both the water pipe and ground rod GEC's into the main disco. In the case of multiple panels, you would bring the GEC (sized to the service conductors going into the meter) near the panels and then use a tap (sized to each disco's service conductors) to go from the GEC into the discos.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)




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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Thanks so much guys! I really appreciate it. I will probably go look at it Monday or Tuesday and have 10 more questions. Although it will probably make way more sense once I see it in person. The pics I got are terrible.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

I’m still a little confused. If the 16 circuit is being powered by that 200amp switch. The 200a switch plus the 5 breakers in that disconnect makes 6 and that’s why it’s legal not to separate the grounds and neutrals? 

And this would have been done to save money? Most likely?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bantar1000 said:


> I’m still a little confused. If the 16 circuit is being powered by that 200amp switch. The 200a switch plus the 5 breakers in that disconnect makes 6 and that’s why it’s legal not to separate the grounds and neutrals?
> 
> And this would have been done to save money? Most likely?


If the 16 circuit panel is being fed from the disconnect, then the disconnect is the only disconnect for the house. The 16 circuit panel is now just a subpanel. Neutrals and ground would have to be separated int he 16 circuit panel.

What I am assuming is going on is that both the disconnect AND the 16 circuit panel are connected to the meter. The 16 circuit panel is not fed from the switch, it is fed from the meter. And because of that, both the 16 circuit panel and the disconnect are the main service disconnects for the house. In this case, neutrals and grounds should be bonded together in both. 

There is a separate code requirement that allows up to 6 throws of the hand to disconnect the power from a structure, and they must be grouped together. So that means if you have the 1 disconnect and 5 breakers in the panel near it, your setup is code complaint.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Now I’m following you. These are the real pics the inspector just sent me and I guess it makes sense that the 16 circuit and the disconnect are fed by that giant meter. I just don’t like it!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bantar1000 said:


> Now I’m following you. These are the real pics the inspector just sent me and I guess it makes sense that the 16 circuit and the disconnect are fed by that giant meter. I just don’t like it!


What you have there is perfectly normal and reasonable. You have a 300-400A service with 2 panels. One panel is outside and the other inside. Because the inside panel is not grouped with the outside panel, they put a disco out there. If both panels were outside, they would have used 2 main breaker panels.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

Both the 16 circuit panel & the 200 amp disconnects are service disconnects. They both need to be bonded internally connecting transformer center tap (GROUNDED) to the equipment grounding conductor (GROUNDING). At no other place in the building should these conductors be bonded. 

There are pages describing what your equipment grounding system should include.

I'm concerned about the service riser. If you are pulling a 200 amp service & feeder, plus a 100? second load, is your cable big enough?

Since they aren't supplying the whole load, presuming 75 degree rated terminals, the 200 amp service conductors, and feeder to indoor panel have to be 250 MCM if aluminum. The service conductors to the 16 circuit, I'm not clear, They would normally match the main breaker in said panel. Having no overcurrent protection beyond the sum amperage of the breakers in it, which is limited to 5. 

Is it OK to have space for more than the limit of 5 breakers in the disconnect?

Is the service riser required to be the sum of service loads?

Are the breakers rated for the short circuit interrupting capacity of the service supply?
The service conductors


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The service entrance conductors have to be sized to the load of the entire structure. I commonly connect three or four 100 amp main panels to a 200 amp service.

Yes, it is OK to have more than six spaces. The requirement is six throws of the hand to disconnect the structure. You are a limited to the breakers, not the available spaces.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

This is what I get for being a total romex jockey! LoL I just don’t like that the main wires in that 16 circuit panel do not have a way to run them off.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bantar1000 said:


> This is what I get for being a total romex jockey! LoL I just don’t like that the main wires in that 16 circuit panel do not have a way to run them off.


What do you mean by “run them off”?


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

Oh, The bushes blocking the dedicated space are yet another violation.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Willie B said:


> Oh, The bushes blocking the dedicated space are yet another violation.


No they aren't. Homeowners are not bound by electrical code. They can put whatever they want in front of electrical equipment as long as it does not require a permit.

The municipality does not have the jurisdiction to tell the homeowners to remove the bushes just like they can't tell the homeowners not to put a bookshelf in front of their electrical panel.
@MTW Frunkslammer?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Doesn't look like his M.O. Definitely a troll through.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

Not run them off, turn them off. Sorry, talk to text.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bantar1000 said:


> Not run them off, turn them off. Sorry, talk to text.


There is no need to turn those conductors off. They are not shut off in configuration unless you have a meter/main.

Shutting off those 5 breakers is the same thing as if you had a main breaker in that panel and shut that off.


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## bantar1000 (Jul 7, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Shutting off those 5 breakers is the same thing as if you had a main breaker in that panel and shut that off.


That's exactly what I needed to hear! Thank you so much!


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