# UL Required/Available for LED Batten fixtures?



## dubjays (Aug 10, 2014)

I am switching some fixtures to T8 LED tubes but I need to replace a few fixtures. I figured to save time and money I could pick up fixtures pre-configured for my needs.

I have a few sources that can provide [CE and RoHS but] not UL certified batten fixtures that come pre-wired for LED tubes (no ballast, straight line). Supplier even claims that UL is not required because there is no electronic components.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Required/Recommended?

Is there such a thing as UL listed fixture for this?

Thanks.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

dubjays said:


> I am switching some fixtures to T8 LED tubes but I need to replace a few fixtures. I figured to save time and money I could pick up fixtures pre-configured for my needs.
> 
> I have a few sources that can provide [CE and RoHS but] not UL certified batten fixtures that come pre-wired for LED tubes (no ballast, straight line). Supplier even claims that UL is not required because there is no electronic components.
> 
> ...



90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety. For specific items of equipment and materials referred to in this Code, examinations for safety made under standard conditions provide a basis for approval where the record is made generally available through promulgation by organizations properly equipped and qualified for experimental testing, inspections of the run of goods at factories, and service-value determination through field inspections. This avoids the necessity for repetition of examinations by different examiners, frequently with inadequate facilities for such work, and the confusion that would result from conflicting reports on the suitability of devices and materials examined for a given purpose.
It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.
Informational Note No. 1:  See requirements in 110.3.
Informational Note No. 2:  Listed is defined in Article 100.
Informational Note No. 3:  Informative Annex A contains an informative list of product safety standards for electrical equipment.



110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:
(1) 
Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code
Informational Note:  Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Special conditions of use or other limitations and other pertinent information may be marked on the equipment, included in the product instructions, or included in the appropriate listing and labeling information. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.
(2) 
Mechanical strength and durability, including, for parts designed to enclose and protect other equipment, the adequacy of the protection thus provided
(3) 
Wire-bending and connection space
(4) 
Electrical insulation
(5) 
Heating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service
(6) 
Arcing effects
(7) 
Classification by type, size, voltage, current capacity, and specific use
(8) 
Other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.



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Welcome to the forum..:thumbup:


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## dubjays (Aug 10, 2014)

So is that a yes? UL required?

Any ideas on how to get one?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

dubjays said:


> So is that a yes? UL required?
> 
> Any ideas on how to get one?


Are you creating fixtures?


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## dubjays (Aug 10, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Are you creating fixtures?


What do you mean?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

dubjays said:


> What do you mean?


Are you building fixtures from scratch, or just retro fitting them, if you are just retro fitting them then the AHJ can approve your work without UL..


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## dubjays (Aug 10, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Are you building fixtures from scratch, or just retro fitting them, if you are just retro fitting them then the AHJ can approve your work without UL..


Well I guess I am doing both.

I am (actually my electrician is...) cutting out ballasts etc. and making old fixtures work with UL approved LED tubes.

but what I am stuck with is finding fixtures that I could be buy that are "legit" that would allow popping in an LED T8 tube.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

dubjays said:


> Well I guess I am doing both.
> 
> I am (actually my electrician is...) cutting out ballasts etc. and making old fixtures work with UL approved LED tubes.
> 
> but what I am stuck with is finding fixtures that I could be buy that are "legit" that would allow popping in an LED T8 tube.


I think that they're making them now, hopefully someone will look that up for you .


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

Try 1000bulbs.com. Best buy for bulbs. I have not yet had to buy a new fixture. But that's probably the only kind of fixtures everybody is making now.

I just finished (finally) rewiring all 54 fixtures in my house. (60 or 70 counting attic and basement.)


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

GladMech said:


> Try 1000bulbs.com. Best buy for bulbs. I have not yet had to buy a new fixture. But that's probably the only kind of fixtures everybody is making now.
> 
> I just finished (finally) rewiring all 54 fixtures in my house. (60 or 70 counting attic and basement.)


you dont think they found something 8 yrs ago?


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

I got rewiring fixtures on the brain. I *just now* finished 54 fixtures. I looked at the day and not the year. What I was really looking for was how come it's OK to use 18 awg on a 20A circuit? I've been doing it for 60 years in the context of light fixtures but I don't know how to reconcile that with NEC 310.16.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

GladMech said:


> I got rewiring fixtures on the brain. I *just now* finished 54 fixtures. I looked at the day and not the year. What I was really looking for was how come it's OK to use 18 awg on a 20A circuit? I've been doing it for 60 years in the context of light fixtures but I don't know how to reconcile that with NEC 310.16.


It's not OK for you to install #18 wire on a 20A circuit. The manufacturer is allowed to under their listing, you are not. So you can use their #18 wires, but if you need to extend anything you have to use the appropriate size of conductor.

So, be careful where you cut those #18 wires.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

GladMech said:


> I got rewiring fixtures on the brain. I *just now* finished 54 fixtures. I looked at the day and not the year. What I was really looking for was how come it's OK to use 18 awg on a 20A circuit? I've been doing it for 60 years in the context of light fixtures but I don't know how to reconcile that with NEC 310.16.


There's an article just for fixture wire, Article 402 and table 402.3 is a long table of different types of fixture wire. 



> *402.5 Allowable Ampacities for Fixture Wires. The allowable ampacity of fixture wire shall be as specified in Table 402.5. No conductor shall be used under such conditions that its operating temperature exceeds the temperature specified in Table 402.3 for the type of insulation involved. Informational Note: See 310.15(A)(3) for temperature limita‐ tion of conductors. 402.6 Minimum Size. Fixture wires shall not be smaller than 18 AWG**.*


the table is nothing like 310.16 












> *402.10 Uses Permitted. Fixture wires shall be permitted (1) for installation in luminaires and in similar equipment where enclosed or protected and not subject to bending or twisting in use, or (2) for connecting luminaires to the branchcircuit conductors supplying the luminaires.*


and 



> *402.14 Overcurrent Protection. Overcurrent protection for fixture wires shall be as specified in 240.5.*


then in 240.5(B)



> *(2) Fixture Wire. Fixture wire shall be permitted to be tapped to the branch-circuit conductor of a branch circuit in accord‐ ance with the following: (1) 20-ampere circuits — 18 AWG, up to 15 m (50 ft) of run length (2) 20-ampere circuits — 16 AWG, up to 30 m (100 ft) of run length (3) 20-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger (4) 30-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger (5) 40-ampere circuits — 12 AWG and larger (6) 50-ampere circuits — 12 AWG and larger*


So, rest easy


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

A) fixture wire is expected to be inside a listed box
B) it is very often a different insulation than THHN, used to be some of it was hi temp


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

It's amazing what you can do if it is inside of an all welded steel container!  
I knew it had to be something like that.
For example, if the ballast explodes, shorts out, or melts down... It is still inside of the steel box!

As always... Splatz for the win!


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

For fluorescent to LED bypass conversions, The instructions from the manufacturers of the brands I've installed explicitly say to not tamper with the original #18 wiring at the tombstone end.

As to adding your own #18 wire into a fixture, is #18 fixture wire, or any #18 wire for that matter, that much easier to source or cost effective than #14 THHN? maybe that's not what we are talking about....


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

joe-nwt said:


> For fluorescent to LED bypass conversions, The instructions from the manufacturers of the brands I've installed explicitly say to not tamper with the original #18 wiring at the tombstone end.
> 
> As to adding your own #18 wire into a fixture, is #18 fixture wire, or any #18 wire for that matter, that much easier to source or cost effective than #14 THHN? maybe that's not what we are talking about....


i have done hundreds of 4ft LED bypass conversions
cut the fixture wires as close to the ballast as possible (i dont even remove the ballast, less trash)
wire up one end as neutral the other as hot, i cut and splice ballast wires as needed to make them reach the existing supply into the fixture
if you have ever checked ballast output voltage on an old mag ballast, it is way over 300V, 8fts are 600V
you are decreasing voltage on the wires you are reusing


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

It depends on which bulbs you are using. Direct voltage or retrofit. In my opinion, nothing but direct voltage is worth the effort. 
It depends on whether you are doing a one, two, or four light fixture. It depends on whether they used to be T12, T8, or T5.
In any case, you have to tamper with the tombstones. Many/most are shunted. Single end direct voltage bulbs, which I am using, require removal of all shunts and paralleling the tombstones on one end only. That's what the small standard paper clip is for. The other end is just to hold the bulb.
BTW, I am also affixing very professional storebought "warning do not use florescent bulbs" labels that describe the rewiring.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LED bypass means 120V bulbs
if the bulbs you are using do not work with t8 shunted tombstones
you need to update your bulb choice
it has been years since i bought one that wont work for shunted tombstones


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

Maybe *you* need to update your *bulb* choice.
I don't pretend to know enough to argue the underlying principles, but from what I have found, the single ended ones I am using are the highest lumens for the lowest wattage and the lowest price.
And I do know enough to know that H SHOULD NOT BE SHUNTED TO N.
By my count, I have about 200 of them.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

well if you choose to buy based on price and performance
nothing wrong with that

the ones i buy i resell to the customer, so a few cents is not that relevant to me
and i buy high lumens and 4000K
when the wattage is in the teens i dont even bother to look

so i wasnt griping at you , just saying there are bulbs that work in t8 and t12 tombstones
because i thought that might be part of a complaint that you were making
perhaps i misunderstood, if so my bad, i apologize


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

GladMech said:


> BTW, I am also affixing very professional storebought "warning do not use florescent bulbs" labels that describe the rewiring.





GladMech said:


> Maybe *you* need to update your *bulb* choice.
> I don't pretend to know enough to argue the underlying principles, but from what I have found, the single ended ones I am using are the highest lumens for the lowest wattage and* the lowest price.*


1) There's a reason why single ended LED are the lowest price, no one is using them.

2) Approved, professional grade LED tubes come with "professional storebought" labels right in the box.

3) A fluorescent tube inserted into a double end LED fixture does absolutely nothing, unlike the single end LED. You will eventually have to revisit those fixtures when single end LED are obsolete. Save your #18 wire for that occasion!


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

I had just finished replacing all of the ballasts and rewiring from T12 to T8 when LEDs finally became affordable. I had every possible variety of 4 ft florescent dating back to 1971. My first house was an A-Frame & I fitted shop lights into the beams. I bought lights with electronic ballasts when they were first invented. Many failed, but I used some of them with one remaining bulb for years longer. The best thing about all of the new LEDs is the lack of temperature sensitivity. I didn't even hesitate to throw away all of those new T8 ballasts.

I will never have to replace 54 ballasts again. 

And I will be dead long before the single ended LEDs are obsolete.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

All right...

I have to admit it.

I had a Betamax tape player.


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