# size for GEC; rods only means



## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

If none of the other grounding electrodes listed in 250.52 are present, two ground rods and a #6 are all that is required.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

It's an old building with all plastic water pipe?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

WMA said:


> Looking at a 400amp service in an old building. Stone foundation, plastic water pipe. The two rods are the only grounding means. Do the rods and #6 really suffice as a GES for this service? If not, to what section of 250 does one turn?


If the conditions are as stated regarding the presence of any possible ground electrodes, then the two rods and #6 is sufficient.

Not only that, it is also quite adequate to achieve its primary function for being there in the first place which is to provide the utility provider a functional way to not have to run a safety ground along with the circuit wiring on their service drops across the land, therefore saving them money.. All the other stated reasons in the code book for grounding are baloney and your building is proof of that.


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## WMA (Sep 30, 2009)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> It's an old building with all plastic water pipe?


Yup. Suspect the old line went away when they did extensive site work.


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## WMA (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for replies.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

WMA said:


> Yup. Suspect the old line went away when they did extensive site work.


 what about the interior piping?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> what about the interior piping?


What about it?


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What about it?


 well it's at least something to ground too. Which actually brings up another point, if where only supposed to be using the underground water pipe as a GEC and the interior piping has no bearing on the GEC then why do we have to jump the hot water heater??


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

:001_huh:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> well it's at least something to ground too. Which actually brings up another point, if where only supposed to be using the underground water pipe as a GEC and the interior piping has no bearing on the GEC then why do we have to jump the hot water heater??


Interior piping = bonding of metal objects likely to become energized to the neutral return path at the service. This part is the good part. 

The equipment grounding conductor which would be better called the equipment bonding conductor, of the water heater supply, should be adequate for bonding both the hot and the cold water piping sides of the system.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> If the conditions are as stated regarding the presence of any possible ground electrodes, then the two rods and #6 is sufficient.
> 
> Not only that, it is also quite adequate to achieve its primary function for being there in the first place which is to provide the utility provider a functional way to not have to run a safety ground along with the circuit wiring on their service drops across the land, therefore saving them money.. All the other stated reasons in the code book for grounding are baloney and your building is proof of that.



I have never seen a house like this . No well head even ? 

I would think that the rods needed a full size neutral , rather than the #6qwg
as a " Supplemental " ground point . As stupid as it sounds . To be supplemental , the rods would be in addition to another ground point , in this case , the rods are the only ground point .Even No Plate Electrode is provided.




Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

pete87 said:


> I have never seen a house like this . No well head even ?
> 
> I would think that the rods needed a full size neutral , rather than the #6qwg
> as a " Supplemental " ground point . As stupid as it sounds . To be supplemental , the rods would be in addition to another ground point , in this case , the rods are the only ground point .Even No Plate Electrode is provided.
> ...


Rods are not always supplemental and since the rod itself is only as good as a #6 there is no reason to use a larger conductor. Let's face it, the rod only helps for lightning and surges and it does little at that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> well it's at least something to ground too.



You are not using the interior piping as a ground but rather you are bonding the metal pipe so that it is at the same potential as everything else in the building. If there is metal piping coming in the building then the first 5' is part of the eelctrode attached to the underground pipe. You must use the piping as an electrode.

The reason to supplement the water pipe with rods or some other means is because if the underground piping gets replaced with nonmetallic pipe then you have no electrode at all.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You are not using the interior piping as a ground but rather you are bonding the metal pipe so that it is at the same potential as everything else in the building. If there is metal piping coming in the building then the first 5' is part of the eelctrode attached to the underground pipe. You must use the piping as an electrode. The reason to supplement the water pipe with rods or some other means is because if the underground piping gets replaced with nonmetallic pipe then you have no electrode at all.


 makes perfect sense. Thanks.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> well it's at least something to ground too. Which actually brings up another point, if where only supposed to be using the underground water pipe as a GEC and the interior piping has no bearing on the GEC then why do we have to jump the hot water heater??


ummmmm, we don't


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Rods are not always supplemental and since the rod itself is only as good as a #6 there is no reason to use a larger conductor. Let's face it, the rod only helps for lightning and surges and it does little at that.


I agree that a #6 is all that is needed . I wondered about the rods being the only ground source . Therefor the ground is not " supplemental " .
I have seen larger wire used on commercial to ground rods .



Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

pete87 said:


> I agree that a #6 is all that is needed . I wondered about the rods being the only ground source . Therefor the ground is not " supplemental " .
> I have seen larger wire used on commercial to ground rods .
> 
> Pete


Engineers will often spec a grounding electrode conductor sized to T.250.66 maybe because they don't know or perhaps to cover their butts. IDK


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Rods are not always supplemental and since the rod itself is only as good as a #6 there is no reason to use a larger conductor. Let's face it, the rod only helps for lightning and surges and it does little at that.


Not that I disagree with you , but have real time proof or scientific study proof of it helping for lightning strikes? My theory, and it is only my theory is house going to get hit by lightning and it is gonna do what it is gonna do, rod and grounding or no rod and grounding. And some places will burn and some won't. 
Which it just so happens is what the actual case of lightning strikes in the country are actually like.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Sole* GE's can utilize #6 cu, but you'll find more #4 due to a phys damage clause

Municipal H20's get the_ full size_ GEC , i understand well heads in some states are also required to have a full sized GEC

This is because they're the _best _premisis GE.

Bonding creates an equopotential plane, regardless of it's ability to return current.

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Not that I disagree with you , but have real time proof or scientific study proof of it helping for lightning strikes? My theory, and it is only my theory is house going to get hit by lightning and it is gonna do what it is gonna do, rod and grounding or no rod and grounding. And some places will burn and some won't.
> Which it just so happens is what the actual case of lightning strikes in the country are actually like.


the IEEE , iirc, published a few Mac

do GE's help? well i suppose the forensics out there concluded your better off with , than without them

what i would like seen addressed, is the optimum install, as some methods we use seen almost counter productive

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Not that I disagree with you , but have real time proof or scientific study proof of it helping for lightning strikes? My theory, and it is only my theory is house going to get hit by lightning and it is gonna do what it is gonna do, rod and grounding or no rod and grounding. And some places will burn and some won't.
> Which it just so happens is what the actual case of lightning strikes in the country are actually like.


Mac, nothing will help a direct hit. The rod MAY help and small surges from power company and lightning.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Mac, nothing will help a direct hit. The rod MAY help and small surges from power company and lightning.


I am of the scientific background type, if there has been no studies published then it doesn't exist. (except for planet macmikeman of course...).
Warning; Driving ground rods may cause cancer in the state of California. 


I actually am very convinced that driving lots of rods helps the power company to open circuits during very LARGE surges. I've known for years that every single rod installed means they are getting another assist in not having to run (We need a new conductor term here- Utility bonding conductor?, Utility grounding conductor? Utility fault current protection conductor? I like #3 best) They use mama earth to return fault current from high voltage events to the protective devices installed at substation facilities. 
And the system seems to work, although from the many you tube video's we all look at, it just isn't as quickly as your typical plug in BR breaker.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> well it's at least something to ground too. Which actually brings up another point, if where only supposed to be using the underground water pipe as a GEC and the interior piping has no bearing on the GEC then why do we have to jump the hot water heater??




As mentioned bonding the water pipes across the WH is for the largest circuit that may energize these pipes . I have always done this too . I just use a piece of #4 and 2 clamps out of habit . It was done so when the WH is removed to change it , you do not loose your bond . 

They may jump the water meters also .



Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I am of the scientific background type, if there has been no studies published then it doesn't exist. (except for planet macmikeman of course...).
> Warning; Driving ground rods may cause cancer in the state of California.
> 
> 
> ...



One savvy poco EE i know claims closer proximity to their substations equates to more noodles than GE's .

~CS~


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

pete87 said:


> As mentioned bonding the water pipes across the WH is for the largest circuit that may energize these pipes . I have always done this too . I just use a piece of #4 and 2 clamps out of habit . It was done so when the WH is removed to change it , you do not loose your bond . They may jump the water meters also . Pete


 yes, but what's the purpose if it's a gas water heater.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Pete87 , I bond like that also. #6 , two clamps, peace of mind .If you have a laundry faucet all brass it's just as good. But me , I bond them anyway.Gas or electric. In my head it's what they use called dielectric fittings on hot water tanks now.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

What's a noodle? ~~~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> What's a noodle? ~~~


A neutral conductor


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> What's a noodle? ~~~


A term electricians should not use.


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