# Brotherhood?



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't want to perpetuate a huge debate here, but what I see looking in is when there is a common foe (for lack of a better word) they have solidarity and stick together as brothers. When dealing directly with each other they are like brother and sister and the whole "brotherhood" thing goes out the window. It's every man for himself and they will step on whoever they have to to get ahead.


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

Cover your own ass. its as simple as that


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I don't want to perpetuate a huge debate here, but what I see looking in is when there is a common foe (for lack of a better word) they have solidarity and stick together as brothers. When dealing directly with each other they are like brother and sister and the whole "brotherhood" thing goes out the window. It's every man for himself and they will step on whoever they have to to get ahead.


Very true. The hypocrisy gets to me sometimes.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I don't want to perpetuate a huge debate here, but what I see looking in is when there is a common foe (for lack of a better word) they have solidarity and stick together as brothers.


Only time I ever say Union guys stick together was trying to keep the 15' rat from blowing down the street.. :laughing:

But.. my exposure is limited to the sidewalk and they might be more touchy feely behind closed doors..


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

the running joke in my local is when someone uses the word brother you're about to get bent over hahaha.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I've seen it too. Brotherhood is hard to preach when you sometimes don't stick to it. You can only control what you do and what you live by. I have, and am satisfied with myself, so far. Those guys that the poster talked about are not to be trusted. They will turn on him if necessary. They have already proven that they have no problem bellittleing others. They were only making him obliged to them. They will ask for a payback someday.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

When swiming in the ocean with your buddy (who is in the brotherhood with you).....and a shark is fixing to attack....you use the brotherhood system...you throw your buddy towards the shark. Thats the brotherhood in a nut shell. :jester::laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

blusolstice said:


> the running joke in my local is when someone uses the word brother you're about to get bent over hahaha.


Hey, what local are you from?

I've been eying 69 and 20.

You guys been keeping busy down there?

I know the open shops down there, are.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I am union and have never met a union guy who was even remotely "hardcore" or talked about "the brotherhood" or all that stereotypical crap. Everyone knows it's still electrical work and the real difference is the pay and conditions are better which is the main reason a person would want to work union to begin with. Nobody I know gives a crap about "being brothers" etc. Who really is into that except for the people who actually work at union hall itself? Who has the time/energy?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Brotherhood is BS for the most part. Every man for himself is how it works in my neck of the woods.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I am union and have never met a union guy who was even remotely "hardcore" or talked about "the brotherhood" or all that stereotypical crap.


 Well you haven't been around that much because I hear it all the time.



> Nobody I know gives a crap about "being brothers" etc.


 Then why does a very large portion of the $25,000+ I earn per year for health and welfare go towards other's health and welfare? The same question goes for the pension?



> Who really is into that except for the people who actually work at union hall itself?


 Everyone who doesn't work a full year yet works long enough to get a pension credit or enough hours for health and welfare. Their hours aren't enough to cover themselves, that extra money is taken from the people who work all year, that's explained as "Brotherhood".



> Who has the time/energy?


 Too many people, apparently.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Hey, what local are you from?
> 
> I've been eying 69 and 20.
> 
> ...


yea i'm local 20, i'm laid off right now but only because i've been on a lazy streak lol..i should be able to go out next week sometime. this week calls went through to book two..things aren't great but they're better than in alot of places. after the superbowl the dfw airport is going to remodel the entire airport and the union contractor robinson elec got the bulk of it, they should clear the books when that kicks off.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I remember the day when "Brotherhood" really meant something.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Maybe these guys were looking out for the company interest and doing what they thought was right.

And a good foreman would keep an eye on both parties to ascertain if the two disclosures of information were on the up and up or PIAs and to see if what they said was true.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Maybe these guys were looking out for the company interest and doing what they thought was right.


 Maybe, but as I said, one of the guys that they threw under the bus was a pretty good worker, I guess they just didn't like him that much. Either way, it is not their job to look out for the company's interest by informing the foreman of other worker's activities. That is NOT in the CBA and it most certainly is NOT something that is in any way related to the word "brotherhood".


> And a good foreman would keep an eye on both parties to ascertain if the two disclosures of information were on the up and up or PIAs and to see if what they said was true.


Very true, *hopefully* this is what happens. But will it? Come layoff time, who is always going to be on the foreman's mind as first and second to get rid of?


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Having served in the military, I've really learned what a true brotherhood is. Family, those guys. What I see when I get in the union is:

35% - Wake up to come to work, bust balls to get the job done and go home, all the while minding their own business.

40% - Brown Nosing @$$ holes that look out for themselves and only themselves. Throw anyone under the bus if that means they get a chance to do something other than work.

23% - Ignorant "electricians/apprentices" that want to turn everyday at work into an episode of Desperate Housewives.

2% - Brothers. Most prior military or people that actually care for others besides themselves. Know the value and benefit of a "brotherhood"



Not sure where the brown nosers originate from. It's not like, when you top out, you get any other permanent wages. Sure you get a foreman's incentive or if you have welding experience. Not sure what they think they're going to benefit from.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I've seen it too. Brotherhood is hard to preach when you sometimes don't stick to it. You can only control what you do and what you live by. I have, and am satisfied with myself, so far. Those guys that the poster talked about are not to be trusted. They will turn on him if necessary. They have already proven that they have no problem bellittleing others. They were only making him obliged to them. They will ask for a payback someday.


LIKE PRISON!?

:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I am union and have never met a union guy who was even remotely "hardcore" or talked about "the brotherhood" or all that stereotypical crap. Everyone knows it's still electrical work and the real difference is the pay and conditions are better which is the main reason a person would want to work union to begin with. Nobody I know gives a crap about "being brothers" etc. Who really is into that except for the people who actually work at union hall itself? Who has the time/energy?


I don't consider myself "hardcore"...I have my faults. But, I have given up job calls to someone who I thought needed the work more. I will have to admit that , at the time, my wife was working and that really helped, but I based my decision on his circumstances,


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I love coming here and talking smack. Its anonymous.

Because in real life, don't EVER bad mouth someone, barring extreme circumstances.

No need for scenarios or past experiences... bad mouthing company suck pumps typically get bent over by the company in the end, and renounce their ways, feeling embarassed that in the prior days of ignorance, they bad mouthed someone who really didn't deserve it. Even yet, they've seen the light, the reputation of who they were before sticks.

Most men who come from the hall, take it easy on the job, and don't get all excited about the company... They know they will return to the hall when work runs out. No need to step on their balls in the mean time, live and let live. They are there to help when the company needs extra help.

Smack talkers who bad mouth behind the back, are suspicous people. Maybe when you are not around, they bad mouth you too? Its never good leadership to promote bad mouth suck ups. It destroys the morale of the crew.

If you are working for a shop who uses spies, suck pumps, and screamers, you can also bet that they eat their own. Move on and go somewhere worth your time. If you have been suffering for such a shop, and feel you're valued because you're a high quality quantity producer, the day will come when that ends, and they will jettison you like a frozen turd ball out of a 747 on a trans-oceanic flight.

Luckily, those kind of sweat shops are not the majority, at least here...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I love coming here and talking smack. Its anonymous.
> 
> Because in real life, don't EVER bad mouth someone, barring extreme circumstances.
> 
> ...


So you agree with me???


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> But, I have given up job calls to someone who I thought needed the work more.


This is where our agreement ends.

Because I believe, 'No good deed goes unpunished.'

Its truly a karma thing you might not understand.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> This is where our agreement ends.
> 
> Because I believe, 'No good deed goes unpunished.'
> 
> Its truly a karma thing you might not understand.


I have to admit that I don't understand Karma. I am not sure that any good deed gets acknowledged. It is something that you feel that you should do.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Never understood how people can do wonderful, brotherly things for people, and yet they're the ones that get slapped with a 400 dollar speeding ticket. Yet the scum that walk the earth are the ones that catch all the breaks.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Never understood how people can do wonderful, brotherly things for people, and yet they're the ones that get slapped with a 400 dollar speeding ticket. Yet the scum that walk the earth are the ones that catch all the breaks.


Maybe you shouldn't go so fast.Edit; Even though, I know what you mean. You have to be true to yourself. If you are not , you are no good to anyone.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I have to admit that I don't understand Karma. I am not sure that any good deed gets acknowledged. It is something that you feel that you should do.


The idiom isn't so much saying that all good deeds don't get acknowledged but any good you do will be followed by a some type of unfavorable consequence.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Maybe you shouldn't go so fast.


What are you talking about? After I smacked that old lady for asking me for the time, the cop let me go, but not before giving me a get out of jail for free card.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> The idiom isn't so much saying that all good deeds don't get acknowledged but any good you do will be followed by a some type of unfavorable consequence.


What is an Idiom?


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What is an Idiom?


an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made.

Yes I copy and pasted.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom#cite_note-oxford-0


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Not really an idiom, the more I think about it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made.
> 
> Yes I copy and pasted.


Okay, I will have to assume that you agree with that, other than C&P and why?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I have to admit that I don't understand Karma.


An explanation of Caramel

A Confectionery is the set of food items that are rich in sugar, any one or type of which is called a confection. Modern usage may include substances rich in artificial sweeteners as well. The word candy (U.S.), sweets (UK) or lolly (Australia) is also used for the extensive variety of items that comprises confectionery.
Generally speaking, confections are low in nutritional value but rich in calories. Specially formulated chocolate has been manufactured in the past for military use due to its high concentration of calories.

WAIT did you say KARMA??????


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

The concept of brotherhood is good, but the system is broken. Yet there are suckass's and back stabbers on both sides. I think it is a people thing. I always said it is a problem that the communication between a JW and the shop is thru the foreman. You could be the best mechanic in the world and if that foreman is job scared your focked.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's so bad now, that if you just try to suggest something that you think could be better for the job and if the foreman doesnt agree, you are a wave maker. It could be a sure labor saver or just a better way. But you think that foreman will pass it on?


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

Union Shops, Non-Union Shops & the Bussiness world are exactly the same.

In the Unions, the word "Brotherhood" is used to show unity and to pull in the same direction. In the Non-Union / Big Bussiness world, the catch frase is "Teamwork". In the end, it becomes a me first attitude with people trowing each other under the proverbial bus so as to advance their own position. Why? So they can make more money for themselves, so they can brag about how great they are, so they can belittle someone, etc.

Until we loose the greedy attitude, and start respecting others, things will not change.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Union Shops, Non-Union Shops & the Bussiness world are exactly the same.


100%



> In the Unions, the word "Brotherhood" is used to show unity and to pull in the same direction. In the Non-Union / Big Bussiness world, the catch frase is "Teamwork".


110%





> Until we loose the greedy attitude, and start respecting others, things will not change.


You had it right it has NOTHING TO DO WITH GREED

read what you wrote



> In the end, it becomes a me first attitude with people trowing each other under the proverbial bus so as to advance their own position. Why? So they can make more money for themselves, so they can brag about how great they are, so they can belittle someone, etc.


I am as greedy as the next guy maybe greedier, but if someone has a better way, I go for it, to hell with a big ego, I love simpler ways that are better. I guess I am just lazier than I am greedy or egotistical


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Union Shops, Non-Union Shops & the Bussiness world are exactly the same.
> 
> In the Unions, the word "Brotherhood" is used to show unity and to pull in the same direction. In the Non-Union / Big Bussiness world, the catch frase is "Teamwork". In the end, it becomes a me first attitude with people trowing each other under the proverbial bus so as to advance their own position. Why? So they can make more money for themselves, so they can brag about how great they are, so they can belittle someone, etc.
> 
> Until we loose the greedy attitude, and start respecting others, things will not change.




Move over Gordon Gecko.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

You had it right it has NOTHING TO DO WITH GREED



Brian - please explain your thoughts, I don't understand what you are trying to say.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's funny to here outsiders knock the union because we work under a collective bargaining agreement. Yet no one does any business without a contract. As pjmurph said it's all the same just different languages. We all have the same goals to better ourselves.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> It's funny to here outsiders knock the union because we work under a collective bargaining agreement. Yet no one does any business without a contract. As pjmurph said it's all the same just different languages. We all have the same goals to better ourselves.


 
Very True


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> It's funny to here outsiders knock the union because we work under a collective bargaining agreement. Yet no one does any business without a contract. As pjmurph said it's all the same just different languages. We all have the same goals to better ourselves.


I don't believe it's the same because in the non-union world they don't have all that brother brother crap. They don't support each other financially and they don't have all the slogans and sayings. They don't sit on break and talk like they are brothers and have to take care of their own. 

My complaint isn't about one man ratting the next out, it's that the same man who is ratting his "brother" out is the one who spews all the union solidarity bull$hit.

Every day I find a new reason to despise the union the way it is now.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> They don't sit on break and talk like they are brothers and have to take care of their own.


I have to call BS on this.



> My complaint isn't about one man ratting the next out, it's that the same man who is ratting his "brother" out is the one who spews all the union solidarity bull$hit.


That is the nature of SOME men


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have to call BS on this.


 Alright, then you are straight up calling me a liar.

I'm glad to know that you have a crystal ball and can see the actions of almost 1,000,000 men at all times.

I guess you wouldn't see it for yourself being the owner, but for you to say that it doesn't happen and call me a liar in the process is mighty _holier than thou_ of you.

I can think back to many, many speeches I've heard sitting around the spool. They usually start with how another non-union company got a big job and the workers are all laborers off the street willing to take less and less money for every job. Then they go into how we have to stick together with the brother brother BS. And then it rolls into how all we have left is our pride and workmanship blah blah blah.

But I digress, it must have all been a dream because Brian John, the man who can do anything and knows everything said it was all BS.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Alright, then you are straight up calling me a liar....


You've shown yourself to be a whining troll before..

Let me paraphrase how you sound coming through the computer screen:

"My vajj is sore because no one has integrity anymore... the union sucks... everybody sucks except me... I am the biggest hot shot in town and its okay for me to judge everyone else... I am (HackWork,) and my momma says I am talented, so you better recognize and bow down to the superiority that is (HackWork.)"

Prove me wrong, how do you motivate the crew?? What have YOU learned about leadership as opposed to simple manpower supervision?? 

This should be interesting.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> You've shown yourself to be a whining troll before..
> 
> Let me paraphrase how you sound coming through the computer screen:
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You've shown yourself to be a whining troll before..


 I am no more a troll than you. You seemed to have calmed down since LawnGuyLandSparky has left and you can't ride his coat tails anymore. That doesn't change history, tho.


> Let me paraphrase how you sound coming through the computer screen:
> 
> "My vajj is sore because no one has integrity anymore... the union sucks... everybody sucks except me... I am the biggest hot shot in town and its okay for me to judge everyone else... I am (HackWork,) and my momma says I am talented, so you better recognize and bow down to the superiority that is (HackWork.)"


 Yes, that must be true. Because I am venting here about the clear hypocrisy of those around me, that means that I have a superiority complex.

The truth is, you are one of those guys who goes to bat for the union and defends against anything said about them. Nothing is wrong with your perfect union and you attack anyone who says anything even slightly negative. You proved this in the other long thread that I made in which you never even spoke about the content one time (the thread is still here to prove it), you just attacked me personally the whole time.


> Prove me wrong, how do you motivate the crew??


 What does motivation of the crew have to do with this thread? Who put me in charge of that task and what kind of salary does it come with?


> What have YOU learned about leadership as opposed to simple manpower supervision??


 What does that have to do with this thread? This thread is about the hypocrisy of those who call you a brother and then throw you under the bus the next day.


> This should be interesting.


 What? Your attempt at fishing?

This is *another* example of you attacking me instead of discussing the topic. You do understand that the topic is about men who pull the brother brother BS all day and then go to the foreman to rat their "brothers" out, correct? Why wasn't that topic in any part of your post?

This should be interesting...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You've shown yourself to be a whining troll before..
> 
> Let me paraphrase how you sound coming through the computer screen:
> 
> ...


YES.. he was a troll at one time, but decided to stop playing games and become a productive member of this forum.

Telling someone they suck because of the way they were a month ago serves no purpose other than making you look bad.

And yes.. I have done the same thing, but not anymore :no:


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## bduerler (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> And yes.. I have done the same thing, but not anymore :no:


what no come back to the dark side:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

bduerler said:


> what no come back to the dark side:laughing:


No sport in taking pot shots at a target that is standing in the middle of a parking lot.. :jester:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> YES.. he was a troll at one time, but decided to stop playing games and become a productive member of this forum.
> 
> Telling someone they suck because of the way they were a month ago serves no purpose other than making you look bad.


Whatever you say Mom.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Whatever you say Mom.


So you don't agree.. 

Does calling me Mom make you feel better about yourself??


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> So you don't agree..


He can't agree because he has me on his Ignore List so he can't even see this thread that he magically posted in :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Alright, then you are straight up calling me a liar.
> 
> .





I know what you stated is not correct therefore I feel you are wrong, don't be such an overly sensitive ****.

I do not need a million I need one to disprove your statement LIGHTEN UP.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> So you don't agree..


Actually I don't even care.

I just get a kick out of you trying to be the forum Mom and tell us how to treat each other and even how we should think about each other.

You decided Hackwork is no longer a troll so you think we all have to feel that way as well. :no:




> Does calling me Mom make you feel better about yourself??


Oh that is deep.:jester:

No I don't feel better or worse about myself but I have amused myself.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> LIGHTEN UP.


I don't like you anymore.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Actually I don't even care.
> 
> But you always manage a snappy reply
> 
> ...


Good.. and I will stop that thought here..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Actually I don't even care.
> 
> I just get a kick out of you trying to be the forum Mom and tell us how to treat each other and even how we should think about each other.
> 
> ...


DAMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! multiple quote did not work


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't like you anymore.


WHOOPE, Blow me you nerd.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> WHOOPE, Blow me.


:sleep1:


brian john said:


> WHOOPE, Blow me you nerd.


:sleeping:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> DAMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! multiple quote did not work



:tt2::tt2::tt2:


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## bduerler (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> No sport in taking pot shots at a target that is standing in the middle of a parking lot.. :jester:


depends on the target:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> :sleeping:




Not sure what any of this means.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Not sure what any of this means.


:hang:


..


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> :hang:
> 
> 
> ..


Tell me that is you swinging,:thumbsup::laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Tell me that is you swinging,:thumbsup::laughing:


No, it's you motherfuker.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No, it's you motherfuker.


You kiss your kids with that mouth.:no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

It is pretty F-ing funny that a guy that calls himself 'Hackwork' is crying because he gets no respect.

Hackman, unfortuntely even with you on my ignore list when people quote you it shows up.

If only that had a 'super ignore setting'


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> It is pretty F-ing funny that a guy that calls himself 'Hackwork' is crying because he gets no respect.


 In what way? The people I was speaking about said they put in a good word for me :thumbsup:


> Hackman, unfortuntely even with you on my ignore list when people quote you it shows up.
> 
> If only that had a 'super ignore setting'


 This is my thread, and it's not the first one you have posted in. If you really wanted to ignore me you wouldn't keep coming into my threads. I know you love me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> You kiss your kids with that mouth.:no:


Do you say this to your kids


brian john said:


> Blow me


??


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I just went through (8) pages of Bob's posts to find his lesson on multiple quotes.

It was on the Craigslist 200a service thread along with a bunch of nasty posts by Hackwork... .

I saved the page in my favorite places.. I think I will be needing it in the near future.. :whistling2:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> It was on the Craigslist 200a service thread along with a bunch of nasty posts by Hackwork... .


 That's yet another thread in which Bob quoted and responded to me without anyone else quoting me. Oh, that's right, that's impossible because I'm on his ignore List.... hmmmmm

As for the nasty posts, I have moved on to brian john. You and I are friends till the end now.


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## bduerler (Oct 2, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> No sport in taking pot shots at a target that is standing in the middle of a parking lot.. :jester:


your no fun:no: but you right


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Wow Hackwork, and I thought I was immature. 


Try acting like an adult.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Wow Hackwork, and I thought I was immature.
> 
> 
> Try acting like an adult.


No thank you.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

HackWork said:


> No thank you.


One tiny brain cell....POOF! 

Gone just like that.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

wow......


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

H.W.

I guess you should of learned by now.

Hillbillies aren't stupid. To the contrary.

Run along and go change your Depends.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> H.W.
> 
> I guess you should of learned by now.
> 
> ...


Darn tootin'


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Why do I hear banjos?





















Just kidding. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Do you say this to your kids
> 
> ??


 
Actually I do kiss my kids every chance I get, they grow up fast and try to enjoy every minute with them I can. But like a professional I can separate work language from home/family talk. For the last three years I have tried to cut back on swear words, they actually prove little but do help to relieve pain when you smash a finger or the like.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Reading through this thread makes me appreciate the Brothers and Sisters in the Brotherhood. The thread starter poses viable questions looking from the outside in. While I personally do not see it being ethical and or productive to slander,throw under the bus,stab in the back(what ever YOU want to call it, It is YOUR story tell how YOU want to) We do not know all the details, only what Hackwork has relayed. As far as being in a family, I truly have pity for those who have not been exposed to how great the Brotherhood can be. I have seen a displaced family in Augusta Georgia by a horrific wreck being helped by others thousands of miles away in a matter of HOURS, the list is long to the good that has and will be done in the name of Brotherhood. I do consider myself a die hard Brother because I have witnessed how productive to human compassion a hand up can be to our fellow workers (Union or not) I will admit we are human, we have flaws and make mistakes but the Brotherhood that I am a part of makes efforts to improve All workers and their family's living, working conditions.As long as we can be pitted us verses them we will continue to beg for a job and a paycheck instead of agreeing to give a fair days work for a fair days pay.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

TRAMPS do stick together. No arguments there.

When I see any electrician at all in distress, I empathize. 

H.W. seems to be in existential distress, trying to make sense of a bunch of nonsense.

Humanity has improved. Generations prior, if you said something someone didn't like, they'd try to stab you. We've come along way, taunting each other over fiber optic lines thousands of miles away with insignificant reprecussions.

Most all electricians here in my local get along very well, excluding the few superintendint types who nurture a foul company culture.

I have the most respect for the FM / GF who deflects the sh1t rolling down the pipeline from above, so that the men below don't even know it was ever there. Thats big nut sack IMO. The FM who sits at the conference table and watches while the PM chomp on his subordinate's butts, getting shown by 'the Man' how to squeeze more out of hardworking hands, that FM is lower than whale sh1t. But, people can change...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Reading through this thread makes me appreciate the Brothers and Sisters in the Brotherhood. .


 








Spoken like a true bovine scatologist....I truely hope you do not believe the crap you produce in your post, because if you do, you really should seek help.


Not sure who posted *bovine scatologist* but in this case where the BS has gone beyond the reality that any MAN can endure Plagiarism was warranted.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> The thread starter poses viable questions looking from the outside in.


 That's not true. I am on the inside and have been for a long time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That's not true. I am on the inside and have been for a long time.


 
Which means everything he posted is AZE BACKWARDS:laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

> The Following User Says Thank You to Brother Noah For This Useful Post:
> 
> App.Electrician


Oh App.Electrician, don't get sucked in by Brother Noah's sermons. He is full of crap and there is likely a reason he has worked in so many areas. :laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

HackWork said:


> That's not true. I am on the inside and have been for a long time.



And that brings up the question, why stay?? And I'm not trying to be condescending in any manner, I'm serious. Your come off very bi-polar. Sometimes you bring up valid issues, and other times you make no sense.

Unions are not perfect and lots need to change on the inside. But reading through your threads, I get the impression that you would be HAPPIER working non-union. And that my friend is more important then anything else in this life. We only live once, might as well be happy while your here.

I think you would do quite well working open shop. Probably be like a Bob Badger type (not a knock on Badger at all). PM/Estimate jobs, run crews, pay people what _you_ feel there worth, not have to worry about your money going towards others pensions and health care, no "book" to work out of, no dues to pay, none of that......

So I ask what is it about being union that you like? What is keeping you? 
Please don't tell me you CAN'T leave either, plenty have left including a few on this forum.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh App.Electrician, don't get sucked in by Brother Noah's sermons. He is full of crap and there is likely a reason he has worked in so many areas. :laughing:


Because he is either crazier that a outhouse rat or needs to grow a set...Can't decide which.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Which means everything he posted is AZE BACKWARDS:laughing:


:hang:

...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> And that brings up the question, why stay?? And I'm not trying to be condescending in any manner, I'm serious.


 That's very simple and I am sure you know the answer.

Jobs that pay anywhere near the union scale (plus benefits, pension, annuity) in northern NJ are few and far between. For me to go non-union would be basically cutting it all in half.


> Your come off very bi-polar.


 I disagree with you completely. Just because I walk the fence doesn't mean I am bi-polar.


> Sometimes you bring up valid issues, and other times you make no sense.


 You are just like miller-elex, you attack me, but not what I said. Please quote something that I said that makes no sense, and explain why. I am going to hold you to this. I expect at least 3 or 4 different quotes.


> Unions are not perfect and lots need to change on the inside. But reading through your threads, I get the impression that you would be HAPPIER working non-union.


I just might be happier working non-union. If you truly read what I have been saying, you'd see why. I find benefits from being in the union, but I also find a lot of BS.



> not have to worry about your money going towards others pensions and health care,


 I don't mind that in and of itself. What I do mind is when those same people who are talking all the brotherly love crap take my pension/H&W money then pull a 180 and rat out their "brothers". The hypocrisy is sickening.


> So I ask what is it about being union that you like? What is keeping you?


 The money.


> Please don't tell me you CAN'T leave either, plenty have left including a few on this forum.


 I could and most likely will at some point. Right now is not the best time.

And I will be waiting for those quotes of me not making sense and you showing why.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HackWork*;294162]That's very simple and I am sure you know the answer.
> 
> Jobs that pay anywhere near the union scale (plus benefits, pension, annuity) in northern NJ are few and far between. For me to go non-union would be basically cutting it all in half.


So you do it for the money, just like EVERYONE else who works for a living.
But you don't believe in the ideals of unionism. Maybe your the problem with the unions? At least in some people's opinions. I don't know you from a can a paint so I'm indifferent.



> I disagree with you completely. Just because I walk the fence doesn't mean I am bi-polar.
> You are just like miller-elex, you attack me, but not what I said. Please quote something that I said that makes no sense, and explain why. I am going to hold you to this.


What fence???? You say in one breath that you want to save the union but in the next breath you complain about sharing H&W and pension money which is the definition of unionism. And your very defensive, I have not attacked you. I asked a very valid question, a question I based off of reading your posts. But as usual you go on the attack. Seems like there's a confidence issue or some sort of complex.



> I expect at least 3 or 4 different quotes.


Yeah, I'm right on that. My opinion of your bi-polarism isn't specific just an impression.



> I just might be happier working non-union. If you truly read what I have been saying, you'd see why. I find benefits from being in the union, but I also find a lot of BS.


Sure, but that's true in ALL walks of life. Like Badger say's "people are people". The BS doesn't disappear when you leave the union, it just changes.



> I don't mind that in and of itself. What I do mind is when those same people who are talking all the brotherly love crap take my pension/H&W money then pull a 180 and rat out their "brothers". The hypocrisy is sickening.


And this is what I mean by bi-polar. Under your other moniker you started a thread about paying people what _you think_ the job's worth. Remember that thread? This is the same type of nonsense that your now complaining about. 



> The money.
> I could and most likely will at some point. Right now is not the best time.


Well if your planning on leaving anyways, quit your bitching.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> And that brings up the question, why stay?? And I'm not trying to be condescending in any manner, I'm serious. Your come off very bi-polar. Sometimes you bring up valid issues, and other times you make no sense.
> 
> .


 
Come on that is pretty obvious, heck guys that hate the trade keep working at it....MONEY, better than HD.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> So you do it for the money, just like EVERYONE else who works for a living.
> But you don't believe in the ideals of unionism.


 Some of them.


> Maybe your the problem with the unions?


 Yeah, I must be. Yet again, you are attacking me instead of refuting what I said.




> What fence???? You say in one breath that you want to save the union but in the next breath you complain about sharing H&W and pension money which is the definition of unionism.


 NO, I did not, that is untrue. Why must you lie? 

I said, and I quote:
_"*I don't mind that in and of itself.* What I do mind is when those same people who are talking all the brotherly love crap take my pension/H&W money then pull a 180 and rat out their "brothers". The hypocrisy is sickening."_



> And your very defensive, I have not attacked you. I asked a very valid question, a question I based off of reading your posts. But as usual you go on the attack. Seems like there's a confidence issue or some sort of complex.


 LOL, are you serious?


> And this is what I mean by bi-polar. Under your other moniker you started a thread about paying people what _you think_ the job's worth. Remember that thread? This is the same type of nonsense that your now complaining about.


 I remember that thread. That was where you did not refute anything that I said, much like this thread. 

I'll ask again, quote the nonsense. Why didn't you do it yet? Why do I have to ask so many times?


> Well if your planning on leaving anyways, quit your bitching.


That's the problem, you guys toe the union line so faithfully that anyone trying to make things better is simply bitching.

Like I said, you have not made any point, you have not made a good argument, you have no refuted what I said. You called me out for posting nonsense, yet you can't quote a single piece of nonsense that I wrote. I asked you to do this multiple times, but you don't- because you can't. All you can do is attack me for saying things that might seem negative towards your precious union.

If you could come up with those 3-4 things that I said that you see as being nonsense and explain why, I will respond. Until then, I will not go back and forth with you when you're apparently just being a typical union blowhard.

This thread is about the hypocrisy of many union men, specifically when talking about "brotherhood". If you have something to add to that or argue about that, go ahead. But if you are here to simply say that I have mental disorders or say that I post nonsense (without quoting it) then you are being nothing more than a troll.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Hackwork, instead of crying and bitching about how bad the union is, why don't you start talking about what you're trying to do to fix any of it?!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Hackwork, instead of crying and brtching about how bad the union is, why don't you start talking about what you're trying to do to fix any of it??


This is rich, a second year apprentice giving me a lecture...


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Come on that is pretty obvious, heck guys that hate the trade keep working at it....MONEY, better than HD.


Electrical work is better than herding terds...

No offense to the plumbers here..
:thumbsup:


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

HackWork said:


> This is rich, a second year apprentice giving me a lecture...


Cmon man, what have you done to fix any of this??

Just because I'm a 2nd year apprentice doesn't make you anymore wise/intelligent than I am. I'm fairly sure that you're probably a fairly intelligent guy, HOWEVER we must empty that big bag of cry baby bullsh!t before we ever get to see it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Cmon man, what have you done to fix any of this??
> 
> Just because I'm a 2nd year apprentice doesn't make you anymore wise/intelligent than I am. I'm fairly sure that you're probably a fairly intelligent guy, HOWEVER we must empty that big bag of cry baby bullsh!t before we ever get to see it.


I've been in the union for longer than you have been alive. A second year apprentice has no place questioning me on my experiences in the union. Go get the coffee order, dig the ditch, and keep your mouth shut.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Hackwork, instead of crying and bitching about how bad the union is, why don't you start talking about what you're trying to do to fix any of it?!


Fixing the Union.. 

That is just plain crazy talk.. :no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

App.Electrician said:


> Cmon man, what have you done to fix any of this??
> 
> Just because I'm a 2nd year apprentice doesn't make you anymore wise/intelligent than I am. I'm fairly sure that you're probably a fairly intelligent guy, HOWEVER we must empty that big bag of cry baby bullsh!t before we ever get to see it.


 
Hate to say it listen to hack or slick for that matter, the union management is entrenched with those that will beat you down and black ball you should you try to go against the status quo.


Some locals are better than others, in my experience those locals in weak markets seem to work harder with members and contractors.

Also part of Hack's rant is just basic human nature, talking about other's is a fact of life and union has nothing to do with it.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> Cmon man, what have you done to fix any of this??
> 
> Just because I'm a 2nd year apprentice doesn't make you anymore wise/intelligent than I am. I'm fairly sure that you're probably a fairly intelligent guy, HOWEVER we must empty that big bag of cry baby bullsh!t before we ever get to see it.


Actually the fact you are only a second year apprentice does mean a guy with more years in does know more about things.

If you really think you have learned it all in two years you need to get over yourself, you are not that amazing.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I've been in the union for longer than you have been alive. A second year apprentice has no place questioning me on my experiences in the union. Go get the coffee order, dig the ditch, and keep your mouth shut.


Oh well, its a good thing we're not on a job site then huh?? 

You walk around my question because you can't answer it. All you want to do is bitch and hope someone else takes care of it for you. 

You're one of the ones that wants to sit in the connex all day and bitch about how you're not getting overtime. 

Grow some sack.


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Actually the fact you are only a second year apprentice does mean a guy with more years in does know more about things.
> 
> If you really think you have learned it all in two years you need to get over yourself, you are not that amazing.


I'm pretty amazing.

However, I don't think I know everything in the 4 YEARS ive been working in the IBEW, but I'd like to think I know the basics.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

very true about bucking the system...if you want to see solidarity try changing how things are done and see everyone ostracize you.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Where does Brother Noah keep his tool belt?.. :whistling2:










Bob.. please fix that for me...


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## App.Electrician (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm going to see myself out of this one. Shouldn't have butted in to begin with.

#1 rule of being a good apprentice

Knowing when to shutup. haha


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> That's very simple and I am sure you know the answer. Jobs that pay anywhere near the union scale (plus benefits, pension, annuity) in northern NJ are few and far between. For me to go non-union would be basically cutting it all in half.


Are you sure you have been around as long as you say??

Ever heard of PW jobs??


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> What I do mind is when those same people who are talking all the brotherly love crap take my pension/H&W money then pull a 180 and rat out their "brothers". The hypocrisy is sickening.


And a die-hard union tea-partier is not a hypocrite? URP


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

don't let him fool you, there not many union jobs that pay union scale in northern NJ right now...

PW is limited, and most of it goes union already...

NJ is fubar'd...big part of the reason in jon corzine...he screwed us royally as he was walking towards the door...


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> And a die-hard union tea-partier is not a hypocrite? URP


unions, ironically, are better off with conservatives in charge than liberals...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I've been in the union for longer than you have been alive.


Please, prove it. I had the mistaken impression you were 28 years old or there abouts... And my gut tells me that's still the truth!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

oldman said:


> unions, ironically, are better off with conservatives in charge than liberals...


I know that too. Simply stated that because tea-partiers call the unions 'socialist.' Either way, its a self-hating conflicted combination. Just like H.W.?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> If you could come up with those 3-4 things that I said that you see as being nonsense and explain why, I will respond. *Until then, I will not go back and forth with you* when you're apparently just being a typical union blowhard.


Really? You'll just shut up? :clap:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Oh App.Electrician, don't get sucked in by Brother Noah's sermons. He is full of crap and there is likely a reason he has worked in so many areas. :laughing:


 May 15th 1987 I topped out at Plant Vogtle, was asked to be foreman that same day but instead asked for my check in order to tramp with 5000+ travelers working in my home local. So once again Bob you lean real heavy on the untruth side.
Brian John It is but a shame that you have not experienced Brotherhood at its best but I am sure with that chip you carry around it probably gets in the way of you extending your hand to a Brother or Sister in need. 
Hackwork you start a post that you should know will stir negative emotions without the full story for all of us to decide if what you say is even true.As far as you having too many years in the union to be questioned by a 2nd year(you know that to be wrong also) Do you remember the oath we all swore?
I do not hide behind a screen name(or many in this case) and yes I have traveled across the USA in my career (mostly because I want to) (I have had to go back to Augusta to work when there was nothing on the road) I am not jaded by union and or nonunion, we both have a place and actually can be good for each other at times. If it entertains you to slam others instead of helping then please reap your rewards but I will warn you that when ever I see an opportunity to help my family members I will do what I can no matter what other say or in this case post. Please have a wonderful day.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

App.Electrician said:


> You walk around my question because you can't answer it. All you want to do is bitch and hope someone else takes care of it for you.
> 
> You're one of the ones that wants to sit in the connex all day and bitch about how you're not getting overtime.
> 
> Grow some sack.


Wow, the ignorance is strong with you.

I have dealt with hundreds of apprentices over the years, literally. Your attitude is of an apprentice who won't make it very far. 

Let's hope for your own sake that you are only acting this way because you are a keyboard commando and you don't act like this on the job.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Are you sure you have been around as long as you say??
> 
> Ever heard of PW jobs??


So now you are going to tell me about PW from across the country? Tell me, how many non-union PW jobs are there? And out of those couple, how many of those contractors have openings? 

Apparently you have some type of insight from 3,000 miles away.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> And a die-hard union tea-partier is not a hypocrite? URP


Who is a tea-partier?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Please, prove it. I had the mistaken impression you were 28 years old or there abouts... And my gut tells me that's still the truth!


You are the guy who told me that I wasn't in the union, you yelled and screamed about how I won't prove it because I couldn't, until I posted pictures proving it. 

Now you want me to prove my age. What kind of little girl are you?

Tell you what, put your money where your mouth is. Your not worth the energy it would take to pull out my camera and blur out the personal info on my ID. So let's make a little gentlemen's wager, $200 Paypal that I am nowhere near 28 years old.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

blusolstice said:


> very true about bucking the system...if you want to see solidarity try changing how things are done and see everyone ostracize you.


Wow, someone with a bit of knowledge about the way it works. Hey, why don't I just stand up at the next meeting and air my grievances, that will do me well!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slick vic, I am still waiting on those quotes and replies!


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> Because he is either crazier that a outhouse rat or needs to grow a set...Can't decide which.


Come on Brian, next time you want to feel alive just let me know.I will carry you out on a book signing tour so you can live the pleasures of the Brotherhood. My logic is that I go to work and live where most people save all year long to go for a week vacation.


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## blusolstice (Sep 17, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Wow, someone with a bit of knowledge about the way it works. Hey, why don't I just stand up at the next meeting and air my grievances, that will do me well!


while i understand that you can't just change the establishment at will you can make a difference, i also think that as a member of the union the friendships and bonds you form along the way mean something. the brotherhood does exist but it's more like sub-groups as opposed to a union wide thing. the friendships and bonds you make while working can either end when the whistle blows or you can include them in the rest of your life and there's where the difference is.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> So now you are going to tell me about PW from across the country? Tell me, how many non-union PW jobs are there? And out of those couple, how many of those contractors have openings?


I get it now....

You don't have the nuts to sign the list and travel. So you have no other choice but to work for the same sweat shop, keeping your nose to the grindstone, then wait at home on the hook in between jobs. Frustrating?


Only you can break the cycle. You have to ask for a reduction in lieu of the hook. If you won't travel, then SALT. All you can do is hope and try for the best. To myself, its like a game. Non-union EC's who do commercial and PW work in this local have all gravitated towards three temp services who provide temporary craft labor. Previously they loaned personnel to and from other IEC shops. Its a sh1t sandwich no matter which way its served, and the restaurant is packed.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I get it now....
> 
> You don't have the nuts to sign the list and travel. So you have no other choice but to work for the same sweat shop, keeping your nose to the grindstone, then wait at home on the hook in between jobs. Frustrating?
> 
> ...


why travel? here a guy gets $45+/hr in the wallet and $40+/hr in benefits...and carries a mortgage of $2k/month without batting an eye (a starter home here is $350k)...

so, he should travel and earn less money, but have the costs of home, AND the costs of traveling?

how the heck does that make sense?

traveling is great for single guys (or someone who's married, no kids, and the wife travels with)...no house back at home, no real expenses...

christ, are you union guys really in the union? or do you just make pretend and post here?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I get it now....
> 
> You don't have the nuts to sign the list and travel.


 Why would I want to travel? I have work here that pays more than just about anywhere else in the country.

The rest of your post is moot since it's based on this idiotic theory.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

isn't that what I said?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> christ, are you union guys really in the union? or do you just make pretend and post here?


You want the truth? They simply say whatever comes out of their ass in an attempt to defend the union against anything that might be in any way seen as negative.

THIS is the reason why things will not change and the entire union in general will get worse and worse.

You were in that other thread that I made. I made the point that not all jobs deserved $73/hr, some of the jobs are menial labor that deserved less money. Many people agreed with me, but some of the die-hard unionites like Miller_elex and Slick Vic didn't. But in that entire thread, they never *once* tried to counter my argument about the pay rate. They spent the entire thread attacking me. Saying I wasn't in the union, saying I have a superiority complex, saying everything they can about me personally. But in the end, they never refuted my point, *they never even commented on it*. It's like slick vic in this thread, he says that I say nonsense yet he can't quote even a single line of it when I asked him multiple times. That's the way that they work.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> isn't that what I said?


I was typing when you made the post :bangin:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Come on Brian, next time you want to feel alive just let me know.I will carry you out on a book signing tour so you can live the pleasures of the Brotherhood. My logic is that I go to work and live where most people save all year long to go for a week vacation.


 
I hope your building an ark because your **** is getting deep


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Come on Brian, next time you want to feel alive just let me know.I will carry you out on a book signing tour so you can live the pleasures of the Brotherhood. My logic is that I go to work and live where most people save all year long to go for a week vacation.


Who the hell wants to go to CA? I still hope that liberal sh1thole falls off into the ocean.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

HackWork said:


> You want the truth? They simply say whatever comes out of their ass in an attempt to defend the union against anything that might be in any way seen as negative.
> 
> THIS is the reason why things will not change and the entire union in general will get worse and worse.
> 
> You were in that other thread that I made. I made the point that not all jobs deserved $73/hr, some of the jobs are menial labor that deserved less money. Many people agreed with me, but some of the die-hard unionites like Miller_elex and Slick Vic didn't. But in that entire thread, they never *once* tried to counter my argument about the pay rate. They spent the entire thread attacking me. Saying I wasn't in the union, saying I have a superiority complex, saying everything they can about me personally. But in the end, they never refuted my point, *they never even commented on it*. It's like slick vic in this thread, he says that I say nonsense yet he can't quote even a single line of it when I asked him multiple times. That's the way that they work.


what they don't realize, it's not always the contractor directly...we gotta convince the end user to pony up more...most contractors aren't charging union rates and paying $15/hr for a JW...wish it was that easy...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> what they don't realize, it's not always the contractor directly...we gotta convince the end user to pony up more...most contractors aren't charging union rates and paying $15/hr for a JW...wish it was that easy...


LOL, that's funny because that's all I ever hear from the union blowhards. Non-union contractors underbid the union contractors by $1-2 per man hour but they only pay their men $7.25 per hour.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

HackWork said:


> LOL, that's funny because that's all I ever hear from the union blowhards. Non-union contractors underbid the union contractors by $1-2 per man hour but they only pay their men $7.25 per hour.


i wish...i'd be riding that gravy train all the way to tahiti...

put it this way, if the job requires skilled labor, union or non, it's gonna cost $ for the right manpower...if the job can be done by $15/hr mechanics, it's not going for top dollar...

on a job now, bid against a "B" shop...I think we were a few $ more than him...like $5k on a $200k job (outside of the lighting)...we got the job because he would only quote spec and wouldn't break out lighting...we quoted both spec and alternate, and let them know the difference...)

and well, we're working...around here, "B" package is $30+/-...my guys are at $35 total package...go figure...

damn non-union shops...

again, this is a "B" job, not an "A" job...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

oldman said:


> "B" package is $30+/-


That seems a bit low. What local?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

OK Hackwork you win, I'll play along....

Here's my beef with you. you complain about things like the pay rate and then turn around and tell me your in for the money. Then you complain about members throwing other members under the buss but you in turn do the same thing buy complaining how some guy's are not worth the money there making.
(Which is exactly what those other two guy's did)...........

This screams hypocrisy, does it not??? 

You called me a "unionite" whatever that is. I've never sat on this forum and said the IBEW is perfect, not by a long shot. I got plenty of opinions about things I don't like that I think hold's the union back. Referral only, Nepotism, down playing the skills of the open shop, Favoritism, Political lobbying, Blind protectionism, Pushing Apprentices through school, Lazy business agents, Dictator like IO, and a bunch of other things that bother me.

So you wanna have a discussion about things that are wrong in our union, fine, we can do that but please get off your high horse. Your not the know it all that you think you are. I'm not refuting what your saying, because basically you haven't said much. Like I said before, bi-polar, 50 different screen names, long rambling posts that really address nothing other then bitch and moan while pumping yourself up.

So what exactly do you wanna address? I'm all ears.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> OK Hackwork you win, I'll play along....
> 
> Here's my beef with you. you complain about things like the pay rate and then turn around and tell me your in for the money.


 So? What's wrong with that? I AM in it for the money, just like everybody else. That has nothing to do with the thread that I made about the $73/hr paid to 10 manual laborers, and how it is detrimental to the IBEW as a whole.



> Then you complain about members throwing other members under the buss but you in turn do the same thing buy complaining how some guy's are not worth the money there making.


 I did not throw anybody under the bus, I did not rat anyone out. 


> This screams hypocrisy, does it not???


 No, it doesn't. This is yet another post of yours that makes no sense. You are equating me making an anonymous rant online to someone going to the foremen and saying that a couple of workers suck.



> So you wanna have a discussion about things that are wrong in our union, fine, we can do that but please get off your high horse.


 I am not on a "high horse". Nothing I have said has shown that. Now I will ask you to please quote something. I am sure you will come up with nothing, as usual.




> Your not the know it all that you think you are.


 I know what I know and I speak from direct experience. YOU are the person trying to tell me that what I have seen with my own eyes is incorrect.


> I'm not refuting what your saying, because basically you haven't said much.


 Hey, nice cop out!

Where are the quotes of my nonsense and your replies proving them as such?


> Like I said before, bi-polar, 50 different screen names, long rambling posts that really address nothing other then bitch and moan while pumping yourself up.


 My posts address a lot more than yours. And I would like you to show me these posts I made that "pump myself up"


> So what exactly do you wanna address? I'm all ears.


I would like you to quote what I have said that is nonsense, and then i would like you to refute it. I need at least 3 to 4 of these quotes since you made it out like I do it all the time.

How many times am i going to have to ask you to do this? Seriously? All you are doing is proving that what you say isn't true. You make blanket statements and then you ignore it when I ask you to actually prove it. If I truly did post so much nonsense, it would be easy for you to quote it.

Then I would like you to quote me pumping myself up and being on a high horse. That is yet another thing you accused me of but will NEVER prove.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HackWork*;294325]So? What's wrong with that? I AM in it for the money, just like everybody else. That has nothing to do with the thread that I made about the $73/hr paid to 10 manual laborers, and how it is detrimental to the IBEW as a whole.


Were on this thread now. I already showed you the hypocrisy in your posts.



> I did not throw anybody under the bus, I did not rat anyone out.
> No, it doesn't. This is yet another post of yours that makes no sense. You are equating me making an anonymous rant online to someone going to the foremen and saying that a couple of workers suck.


Your the one complaining about H&W, pension money getting split up with people you clearly feel superior too. That's the same thing!



> I am not on a "high horse". Nothing I have said has shown that. Now I will ask you to please quote something. I am sure you will come up with nothing, as usual.


I really have no desire to go through all your threads and all your usernames and multi-quote everything. Anybody who's followed along this far can make up there own minds.




> I know what I know and I speak from direct experience. YOU are the person trying to tell me that what I have seen with my own eyes is incorrect.
> Hey, nice cop out!


I never called you a liar. And never said you spoke from experience.
But what the hell, that was a nice diversion from the real point of my post,
_*WHAT do you wanna address?????????*_

So Hackwork, what problems do you wanna talk about?? What are we addressing anyway, now I'm really confused, I thought you were leaving when the time was right.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Were on this thread now. I already showed you the hypocrisy in your posts.


 NO, you haven't. You made a statement, I quoted it and refuted it. What you said was simply not true and made no sense and I explained why. You conveniently didn't reply to that, hmmm...



> Your the one complaining about H&W, pension money getting split up with people you clearly feel superior too. That's the same thing!


 No, it's not. There is nothing in the facts that I posted that have anything to do with feeling superior to someone. If you read it that way, you are both wrong and stupid.



> I really have no desire to go through all your threads and all your usernames and multi-quote everything. Anybody who's followed along this far can make up there own minds.


 Yet another cop out.

You said I post nonsense all the time so it would be easy to find it. I have asked you about 15 times already to quote it. 

Just be a man for once and admit that you can't.



> _*WHAT do you wanna address?????????*_


 I want you to quote all this nonsense that I post AND I want you to quote where I "pump myself up" and where I am "on a high horse".




> So Hackwork, what problems do you wanna talk about??


 I want you to quote all this nonsense that I post AND I want you to quote where I "pump myself up" and where I am "on a high horse".

You CAN'T just go around making false statements and not be called on it, sorry.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> Come on Brian, next time you want to feel alive just let me know.I will carry you out on a book signing tour so you can live the pleasures of the Brotherhood. My logic is that I go to work and live where most people save all year long to go for a week vacation.


And I have no problem with that, it is just that your post REALLY come across like someone on drugs, SERIOUSLY I think they sound like the ravings of a mad man.

As far as vacations go I try for 3 or 4 a year, plus several long weekends...I am pretty much done with the consecutive 80 hour weeks.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Who the hell wants to go to CA? I still hope that liberal sh1thole falls off into the ocean.


You ask what makes ten men hauling materials worth $73 a man hour each?

Collective bargaining. Something you can't understand, and don't deserve to benefit from.

My cousin lost his house, his truck, and his wife. Feels like half the guys I know union and not, have lost a truck, and never owned a house. I know the cous was better than you, he was a FM, and was strung along on the hook for months, only to end up on the tail end of a really long list back at the hall. Its no longer is a surprise to hear a friend is being foreclosed upon...

No one deserves the $73 a man hour that is the package. Surely, you do not. WTF! You deserve to benefit from the market forces in a dump like Mexico. Maybe then you will be grateful for the $35 an hour on the check with no benefits you could make in NJ working non-union. 

H.W. sure is greedy to reap the rewards of being union, and thinks he alone with few others deserves those rewards. Screw everyone else. I'd like to know, H.W., what makes you feel entitled to your wage package?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

H.W. what makes you feel like your piece of the pie should increase while another guys shrinks?

answer: you either are related or a suck pump.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> You ask what makes ten men hauling materials worth $73 a man hour each?
> 
> Collective bargaining. Something you can't understand, and don't deserve to benefit from.
> 
> ...


While the nation as a whole is suffering in this recession, California is taking it a bit harder and some of this is from their somer liberal stance, state give aways, unfunded retirements and this list could go on and on. I read where business are leaving (not including just closing their doors) in droves due to high taxes and state regulations.

So some of what you see is some of what your state sowed and some of that includes paying 10 men $73.00 an hour when a laborer might do it for 1/2 that.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

there is a tipping point...4 months out of the year at $73/hr? 8 months out of the year at $50/hr? 12 months out of the year at $40/hr? which one gives you the better lifestyle and lets you not lose your car and house?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> You ask what makes ten men hauling materials worth $73 a man hour each?
> 
> Collective bargaining. Something you can't understand, and don't deserve to benefit from.


 The tile unions have both tile setters and laborers who support the tile setters and do the lesser work like grouting. They also have a CBA.

So please, come up with a better excuse. And don't tell me what I do or do not understand, especially when your examples are so remedial.


> My cousin lost his house, his truck, and his wife. Feels like half the guys I know union and not, have lost a truck, and never owned a house. I know the cous was better than you, he was a FM, and was strung along on the hook for months, only to end up on the tail end of a really long list back at the hall. Its no longer is a surprise to hear a friend is being foreclosed upon...


 Cry me a river. 


> No one deserves the $73 a man hour that is the package.


 WTF are you going on about?


> Surely, you do not.


 Why not? I have always been highly productive, a good worker, and a good leader. You don't know me or what I have done, you are just looking for more ways to attack me. This is what I said multiple times, instead of refuting what I have said, you try to attack me personally. Lame. You are a child.


> WTF! You deserve to benefit from the market forces in a dump like Mexico.


 Why is that?


> Maybe then you will be grateful for the $35 an hour on the check with no benefits you could make in NJ working non-union.


 So I should give up my union job to go work in Mexico this way I will be happy with non-union rates? Am I reading this correctly? How much have you had to drink tonight? 


> H.W. sure is greedy to reap the rewards of being union, and thinks he alone with few others deserves those rewards. Screw everyone else.


 I never said anything of the sort. NEVER. I'd ask you to quote me saying anything like that, but we both know that you won't (cant) so what's the use?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> H.W. what makes you feel like your piece of the pie should increase while another guys shrinks?


When did I say that mine should increase while anyone else's decreases?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> there is a tipping point...4 months out of the year at $73/hr? 8 months out of the year at $50/hr? 12 months out of the year at $40/hr? which one gives you the better lifestyle and lets you not lose your car and house?


In our area many of those losing houses over extended themselves. Myself whe I qualified for a certain price range I bought below it, while many exceed it. Agents and banks are willing to let you stretch yourself out. BUT WHOSE FAULT is that.


I drive a 5 year old truck, I can damn site afford a new truck every year, my wife has a older Honda, many of my employees have much nicer cars and regularly trade them in, their prerogative But when they wreck their car and find themselves upside down you should hear the crying.

Point is You have to plan for tough times it is not always cherries and whip cream.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> When did I say that mine should increase while anyone else's decreases?


But if you can swing it why not?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Why not? I have always been highly productive, a good worker, and a good leader.


This does not matter in the larger scheme. You get paid what you do because a large group of craftsmen who collaborate together SAY what you are worth. This group is large enough to raise the wages of craftsmen who are not members.

The group has the same drama as any large extended family, we even have some self-hating, backsliding, undeserving step-brothers... :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> But if you can swing it why not?


Because it'll price us right out of the market.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> This does not matter in the larger scheme. You get paid what you do because a large group of craftsmen who collaborate together SAY what you are worth. This group is large enough to raise the wages of craftsmen who are not members.
> 
> The group has the same drama as any large extended family, we even have some self-hating, backsliding, undeserving step-brothers... :laughing:



And this group is losing market share.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> And this group is losing market share.


Because this group is stupid enough to pay the material movers and MC pullers the same wage as the control specialists and instrumentation techs.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Because it'll price us right out of the market.


I did not say the local I said you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> I did not say the local I said you.


Start from the beginning because I am confused at what you are asking.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Because this group is stupid enough to pay the material movers and MC pullers the same wage as the control specialists and instrumentation techs.


And in controls, we move alot slower, because its more of a mine field. Controls pulls potential manpower from the pool of MC Pullers.

The only reason controls is not paid at the lower tel-data rate is because the PLUMBERS stick together!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Start from the beginning because I am confused at what you are asking.





> Originally Posted by miller_elex
> H.W. what makes you feel like your piece of the pie should increase while another guys shrinks?
> When did I say that mine should increase while anyone else's decreases?


Why should your piece of the pie increase while others shrink? IF YOU CAN GET MORE PERSONALLY WHY SHOULDN'T YOU?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> The only reason controls is not paid at the lower tel-data rate is because the PLUMBERS stick together!



NO not at all, controls require a high set of electrical skills any knuckle head can pull telco, hell you should see the high quality of work completed by low paid telco installers in this area.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> And in controls, we move alot slower, because its more of a mine field. Controls pulls potential manpower from the pool of MC Pullers.


 So what? What is your point? Pulling manpower from a group of people doesn't mean that said group should be paid the same. Many companies hire from within, should the mail clerks get the same salary as the executives?


> The only reason controls is not paid at the lower tel-data rate is because the PLUMBERS stick together!


Bull$hit

Have you ever said anything of merit? Ever?

I explained how the MC pullers and material handlers get paid the same as instrumentation techs and control specialists and this is all you have to say? You have absolutely no argument here, huh? So let me guess, since you have nothing to comment on the topic, you will probably attack me by calling me a "suck pump" or tell me that I have a superiority complex.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Typically when control workers pull from the semi-skilled electricians they use them for simple task that a helper could do, if they seem to excel at that task they get kept on and will move up the ladder if their is a drive to learn.


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