# Restaraunt Electrical Requirements



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

besc said:


> Ive done feed stores, banks and schools but never a restaraunt. Any info on what to be aware of or to know would be a great help as this is my first one. The place is completely cutted out for remodel and they want me to do the elctrical design. I already know I have to upgrade their survice but that's the easy part. This is in California. Thanks. Mike.


It's really driven by equipment and floor plan.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

If you have never done one, just don't forget about the Ansul system.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

And the Ansul system can vary widely. Wet or dry suppressant? What does activation need to do?..... what must turn off, what must stay running, what must turn on if off? Does it alert the security system? Is the space part of a larger building and need to tie into their fire alarm? Does it need to shut down the gas? Manual activation point (s)?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

besc said:


> they want me to do the elctrical design.


Don't give them the design until AFTER you have a signed contract! Or else they may use it for other EC's to bid off of!


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I've been screwed by restaurant owners before. Don't want to generalize but they can be cheap!


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

eddy current said:


> I've been screwed by restaurant owners before. Don't want to generalize but they ARE cheap!


fify


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Never use MC cable in the kitchen, always use pipe and always oversize. Most of the time, the final equipment layout will not be even close to the original drawing. 

If the dishwasher has an electric booster heater, it'll be a huge load. I've seen them require more than 100 amps at 208 or 240. 

Any surface pipe needs to be mounted away from the wall so the back side of it can be cleaned. 

As noted, the Ansul system will be a bear. Even if it's installed per drawing, the fire marshall has the final say. 

Don't be surprised if you have to move a few light fixtures around in the dining room. Especially the pendant hung ones that are centered on the tables.


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

This is all good stuff, guys. Keep it comming. Thanks. Mike.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

So, there is no formal plans, there is trouble right there! JMO.
OK, What the service on the pole, make note of it and make it a point
that the owner understands it. Or the owner will do the following:

The owner will buy any piece of like equipment that will not match your
electrical lay out or service size. 
There will be no presented cut sheets for equipment, you have to seek and qualify all equipment arrangements,
and specifications.

You have to watch what needs to be under the Ansul hood. Example a
Chip smoker that is a pan with chips in water 
that placed in the oven is not required to be under the hood in NC,
your requirements might be different.

If you figure 42 circuits you'll need 54 or 60. Every piece of equipment needs a circuit. In the kitchen you have to watch 
convience outlets verses dedicated circuits on a countertop or a parapit wall.
Most kitchen (not all) have a backsplash built 
in on the SS table top. What is that height? You need to be approximately inches above or go under
the counter top for 24" or maybe 30" or 36" AFF. What are the wash down requirements of the kitchen and 
this wall or any wall?

You have to get with the plumber and have them tell your the size of the 
water heater if electric! 
If not the you only need a ignator circuit.

You need to have the HVAC guy tell you their electrical requirements!
Is the building sprinkled, you need power for that,
and you might need to do some signal wiring piping, Example, control panel to sprinkler main header, 
you might also be required to do site work piping for FA for Control panel,
to street water main, who resposible for all that?

There should be make up air for kitchen hood and there might be just an 
wall exhaust fan that needs to be wired and 
needs to be included in make-up air calc's. While not on you make sure that HVAC has covered it in thier calc's.

You have to get your power up to through roof for various circuits and your electrical roof power, all need 
to be at best done once (the peneration) all sized need to be correct for all the various equipment! 
Don't miss a circuit or make an incorrect peneration size!

Signage, you might need two circuits for four sides of building, don't forget outside sign and all those requirements.

When they break up floor have your size and requirements ready, QA that you can run with plumbing to various points and
be ready to ask to increase the size of a run for you pipes. I'd put everything in the ground that you can.

You have to pass a State Health Inspection as well as an electrical inspection.

Since this is a public business the ADA requirements for placement of electrical devices and approach-ability and
spacial requirements well come into play.

The best thing the owner could do is go get this designed by an Architect
or Engineer with a Architect partner. 
This is not a Design Build Application that you are ready for, IMO. 

The above is only a few small statements of the headaches that you are going to run into.

Is the FA guy going to do all their own stuff or ar you going to do that too?

Good Luck!


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Every commercial kitchen I wired I had a equipment layout and the electrical requirements from the equipment supplier. *NEVER* rough in a commercial kitchen off the electrical drawing.
NO design? Make the contractor / owner provide the information I mentioned that way when it is wrong you can go back on them.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

CADPoint said:


> So, there is no formal plans, there is trouble right there! JMO.
> The best thing the owner could do is go get this designed by an Architect
> or Engineer with a Architect partner.
> This is not a Design Build Application that you are ready for, IMO.
> ...





manchestersparky said:


> Every commercial kitchen I wired I had a equipment layout and the electrical requirements from the equipment supplier. *NEVER* rough in a commercial kitchen off the electrical drawing.
> NO design? Make the contractor / owner provide the information I mentioned that way when it is wrong you can go back on them.


Both of these comments are 100% correct:thumbup:
Restaurants are the biggest pia, even when there are proper drawings.
And beware of the owner who makes changes on the fly. He can cause you more problems than you can imagine.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

CADPOINT, good post man! I have done a couple commercial kitchens in the past, but they all seemed different and they all had prints. I did one remodel without prints, but that job had lots of problems and the customer kept buying different peices of equipment that he was getting at used prices - none of it matched with what was there. That job didn't finish on time because of this nonsense.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Not sure if this applies to u but up here in Canada we have to watch for equipment without a CSA logo on it. Owners love to buy used equipment from who knows where and it costs extra to have "special inspection" certify it.

Also the cord end on this old equipment may have the wrong plug installed as per the nameplate. 30 amp equipment with a 50 amp cord end on it from the last place it was wired etc.

Oh yeah, if this place was a restaurant and your doing a retro it's gonna b gross. Grease and bugs everywhere, specially in the panels and j boxes!

Man I hate restaurants:laughing:


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

This all started out with a request for a service change from 60 to 125 amp. I suggested a 200 amp service. Think I'll stick with just changing the service and walking away after that. Mike.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

200A? How big is the restaurant? Is it a little taqueria or something?

A few pieces of new kitchen equipment will have that overloaded in no time.


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

It's pretty small. Maybe 900sq ft.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Just did a service upgrade in a restaurant. It had a 100 amp service running the whole place including the suite they lived in.
30,000 btu A/C
1 1/2hp exhaust hood
ice machine
the biggest baddest coffee pot complete with hot water tap
6 fridges
4 chest freezers 
2 glass door coolers
2 buffet hot tables
microwaves, toasters etc... all incandescent lighting.
They claim to have never experienced nuisance trips.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

farlsincharge said:


> Just did a service upgrade in a restaurant. It had a 100 amp service running the whole place including the suite they lived in.
> 30,000 btu A/C
> 1 1/2hp exhaust hood
> ice machine
> ...


Was it a single or three phase service? Quite a mix of single & three phase in old commercial around here.

I'VE seen several small restaurants & delis in older strip malls & buildings, and alot of them seem to still have the original single phase 100 or 150 amp service. I wouldn't say its common, but I wouldn't say it was rare either. Seems like everything built or remodeled after 1980 wasn't smaller than 200 amp.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

single phase
aluminum bus square d panel with a fpe sub


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## Year_Zero (Nov 3, 2013)

I didn't see anyone else mention this but find out any locations the Point of Sale guys may install order terminals/monitor in the kitchen and plan on Iso-ground outlets at those points.


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## Year_Zero (Nov 3, 2013)

EDIT: Duplicate Post


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

micromind said:


> Most of the time, the final equipment layout will not be even close to the original drawing.


 
I agree with this.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Year_Zero said:


> I didn't see anyone else mention this but find out any locations the Point of Sale guys may install order terminals/monitor in the kitchen and plan on Iso-ground outlets at those points.


I've never been asked for an IG at a pos terminal so I would never recommend anyone to "plan on it". Especially at a restaurant, that's just silly


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I've never been asked for an IG at a pos terminal so I would never recommend anyone to "plan on it". Especially at a restaurant, that's just silly


Most of your chain restaurants require them at install. If you go back later to service something, the crap is plugged into whatever is closest.:laughing:


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## goatman85 (Aug 20, 2014)

yeah-IGs are for super computers and sensitive monitoring equipment and such-not really a POS in my personal experience


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

It is not that they need them, it is that the idiots designing the systems require them.


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## goatman85 (Aug 20, 2014)

Switched said:


> It is not that they need them, it is that the idiots designing the systems require them.


i hear ya brotha-


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

Where in cali codes very from place to place . Lighting can be a nightmare . Ansul is always fun with 3 phase steamers . Once you get them down they are easy but the first one you do you will hate and we will find you in a corner crying . After that its gravy . All we do is restaurants and its always a nightmare from the biggest chain to mom and pop . and beware of low volt those guys need power in places you can even think of and it wont be on the prints you draw and in places by code you can't do and it WILL BE YOU'RE PROBLEM . Been there still doing it and getting free food and beer . Oh and don't over think it it's not that hard . Good luck


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

catsparky1 said:


> Where in cali codes very from place to place . Lighting can be a nightmare . Ansul is always fun with 3 phase steamers . Once you get them down they are easy but the first one you do you will hate and we will find you in a corner crying . After that its gravy . All we do is restaurants and its always a nightmare from the biggest chain to mom and pop . and beware of low volt those guys need power in places you can even think of and it wont be on the prints you draw and in places by code you can't do and it WILL BE YOU'RE PROBLEM . Been there still doing it and getting free food and beer . Oh and don't over think it it's not that hard . Good luck


Good stuff. The last one I did was a fast food place. I have worked hospitals, schools, residences, and power plants......I have never seen conduit packed so tightly with all the other goings on as in a fast food restaurant.


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

That's encouraging Catsparky1. Before any of this begins I'm changing the srvice which isn't a peice of cake. The restaraunts electrical room is the loacation for several other businesses power source. All supplied by a 400 amp service. At 11:30 am the current load at the main service was 100amp. Her place is going from 60 to 150 or 200 amps. Be talking to the POCO today or tomorrow to figuure a strategy. The adventure begins. Mike.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Switched said:


> Good stuff. The last one I did was a fast food place. I have worked hospitals, schools, residences, and power plants......I have never seen conduit packed so tightly with all the other goings on as in a fast food restaurant.


 You aint lying! The ceilings get packed real quick in restraunts, from sound system to lights, FA, duct work, sprinkles, yada yada yada. 

Are you doing new construction fast food, or remodels? An EC I know is often involved in fast food jobs, and he says the remodels are the money makers, and the new construction jobs barely cover costs. Go figure, right?! :laughing:


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## besc (May 16, 2010)

This is an old restaraunt that has been gutted out and basicaly starting over. Sort of an inbetween remodel and new construction.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Prepare for some fun....

After your first one, they get a little easier. They will always be a pain though.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Be very specific as to what you will be doing on your permit.

Alarm, cctv, and pos, (etc.) contractors never want to pull a permit, at least around here.


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