# Panel upgrades



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

sometimes you put the new service in an entirely different location then feed the existing as a sub.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

As you stated it all depends.
I've replaced panels where all the wires were long enough to reterminate.
I've replaced panels where most of the wires were long enough, but some made into the panel box, but just a bit short.
Spliced in panel so wires would reach.
Then I've done panels where I had to install a junction box in the attic and install new home runs to there.

Depending on the authority having jurisdiction or the utility company other things come into play.
I've done panels where the power company pulled the meter, I installed the new panel,
called them to say I'm done, the power company looked it over, plugged meter back in.
Typically this was done out in the county, no permit required, but an inspection had to be done by the authority having jurisdiction, in this case the utility company.

I've done panels where the entire service had to be upgraded and brought up to current codes.
Old style gooseneck service mounted on eve, installed a through the roof service mast.
Service damaged during hurricane Ike.
Typically inside the city limit, permit required, city inspection prior to utility powering the service back up.
If a residence, people are living in, the utility will power up a service " temporarily" pending inspection.

That last one was on my parent's house, the one I grew up in.
The only thing I missed was a bond wire to the cable TV block.
Inspector passed the service, but I had to promise to install the bond.
Not bad considering it had been 10 years or more since I did the actual work.


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

mofos be cray said:


> sometimes you put the new service in an entirely different location then feed the existing as a sub.


This is what I did with the one panel upgrade I have done.


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

wiz1997 said:


> As you stated it all depends.
> I've replaced panels where all the wires were long enough to reterminate.
> I've replaced panels where most of the wires were long enough, but some made into the panel box, but just a bit short.
> Spliced in panel so wires would reach.
> ...


Cool, thanks this is super helpful. Out here we have to pull permit and inspect them. Just wondering if they do the inspection after the work is complete or if one is needed before they reconnect the power. I'll have to make a couple phone calls to find out. If that's the case I would have to schedule all in one day. I know some people around here just do the connections at the weather head themselves, but no suppose to.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

mofos be cray said:


> sometimes you put the new service in an entirely different location then feed the existing as a sub.


This is getting increasingly common. I have two jobs like this already this year.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If I’m disconnecting/reconnecting same day, the inspectors here aren’t looking for branch circuit connections, they’re looking at the service, the panel and the grounding. I will often get a call from the inspector sometime during the day to see how it’s going.

Here, definitely the utility needs an inspection before they reconnect. The inspector makes the call to the utility after inspection.

I arrive early and identify the branch circuits with white tape on the cable according to the panel directory while it’s still hot. Then I yank out the branch circuits. By that time the utility usually arrives to shut it down.

Like you say, every one is different. If I need to extend circuits I like to use screw cover splice boxes. Some guys use multiple 4 X 4 or 4 11/16 boxes but I don’t see the value in that.


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

99cents said:


> If I’m disconnecting/reconnecting same day, the inspectors here aren’t looking for branch circuit connections, they’re looking at the service, the panel and the grounding. I will often get a call from the inspector sometime during the day to see how it’s going.
> 
> Here, definitely the utility needs an inspection before they reconnect. The inspector makes the call to the utility after inspection.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'm sure it's similar process around here. Is it necessary for 2 ground rods for 200 amp? I've been looking at new services in my area and I sometimes only see 1 ground rod near where the water enters the house. I put 2 on the service I did, but just not sure it was necessary.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt1 said:


> Thanks! I'm sure it's similar process around here. Is it necessary for 2 ground rods for 200 amp? I've been looking at new services in my area and I sometimes only see 1 ground rod near where the water enters the house. I put 2 on the service I did, but just not sure it was necessary.


I’m Canadian so I can’t comment. The only time I pounded in ground rods for a house was when ground plates were back ordered.


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

Matt1 said:


> Thanks! I'm sure it's similar process around here. Is it necessary for 2 ground rods for 200 amp? I've been looking at new services in my area and I sometimes only see 1 ground rod near where the water enters the house. I put 2 on the service I did, but just not sure it was necessary.





99cents said:


> I’m Canadian so I can’t comment. The only time I pounded in ground rods for a house was when ground plates were back ordered.


Understood. Thx.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I have seen many posts about panel and service changes and here is what I know: every jurisdiction and POCO has different rules. My service area is a 30 mile circle around my house that includes three counties, 13 permitting jurisdictions, and three POCOs. Every one of them seems to have different rules. You must call each jurisdiction and POCO you will be dealing with and have an in-depth discussion on the procedure they want you to follow and what is allowed.

Ideally, you will be allowed to pull and re-install the meter yourself*. This allows you to work at your own pace. If you have a POCO do it, they sometimes don't show up until 10am to pull and some expect you to call them by 3pm to get a same day reconnect. A panel change is usually a 5-6 hour job assuming nothing goes wrong. Leaving a family in the dark overnight will get you bad reviews. Some POCOs don't allow you to pull the meter so you are stuck working on their schedule. You will hear some ECs say they cut the overhead drop rather than pull the meter.

Ideally, you can replace the panel and turn the power back on prior to the inspection. Ideally, you can schedule that inspection one or more days out so you don't have to worry about the inspector showing up before you complete enough work for him/her to look at. Some jurisdictions require inspection before the power can be turned back on.


*I suggest you wear lightweight arc flash gear when pulling a meter. Always turn off all loads before pulling or reinstalling a meter. Always check that you are installing the meter right side up.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We can’t pull meters. It can get tricky. Inspector’s last call is around 4 pm. At that time of day the utility switches to night crew. I have had the reconnect done close to 8 pm.

One time I got disconnected, started taking things apart and realized I could not finish by inspection time. I had to put it back together and get it inspected before it could be reconnected. Then I had to go to Plan B and re-schedule.


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

99cents said:


> We can’t pull meters. It can get tricky. Inspector’s last call is around 4 pm. At that time of day the utility switches to night crew. I have had the reconnect done close to 8 pm.
> 
> One time I got disconnected, started taking things apart and realized I could not finish by inspection time. I had to put it back together and get it inspected before it could be reconnected. Then I had to go to Plan B and re-schedule.


Oh man, stressful. I just spoke to my buddy at the utility out here. They come and disconnect in morning and won't reconnect until inspector passes it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't like doing them because standing in one spot for 8 hours is hell on my knees and lower back. But they still keep on happening. Such is the electricians life.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

One of the biggest hassles now is in the past all the neutrals and grounds all landed on a bus bar together. Now with AFCIs they have to go to the breaker. Often they have to be spliced in some way.

Same process in commercial/industrial. With VFDs one of the most annoying problems is that in the past usually the incoming feed terminals were either midline or high up. Now they are almost universally at the bottom. No big deal for 10 HP. It’s a big deal at 200+ HP where you are often doing multiple 250-500 MCM feeders. Makes houses seem tame.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

paulengr said:


> One of the biggest hassles now is in the past all the neutrals and grounds all landed on a bus bar together. Now with AFCIs they have to go to the breaker. Often they have to be spliced in some way.


Connecting old circuits to AFCI's or GFCI's is a recipe for disaster. You are very likely to get a circuit that won't hold. The NEC allows the conductors inside the panel to be extended up to six feet without adding AFCI's. I do everything in my power to stay within that six foot limit which is difficult if you have to relocate a panel.

If you don't want to spend extra hours troubleshooting, it's also very important to put panels back together exactly like they were. This means: all hots should be on the same phases they came off; not putting a white conductor from a two pole breaker on the neutral bar; and if a red conductor is grounded, ground it. The only change I will make is to downsize a breaker that is too large for the wire it's connected to.


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## Mobius87 (May 20, 2019)

99cents said:


> We can’t pull meters. It can get tricky. Inspector’s last call is around 4 pm. At that time of day the utility switches to night crew. I have had the reconnect done close to 8 pm.
> 
> One time I got disconnected, started taking things apart and realized I could not finish by inspection time. I had to put it back together and get it inspected before it could be reconnected. Then I had to go to Plan B and re-schedule.


I remember that frustration working in Edmonton.

I'm glad they do it different here.

Utility still has to do the disconnect and reconnect, but it has to be booked in advance. Usually, disconnect at 9am and reconnect at 1pm. Gives me enough time to get the new service put in, and then I can finish the branch circuits off in the afternoon.

Inspectors only come down here on Thursdays, and only if you schedule them. So it is independent of the reconnect. Sometimes a couple weeks or a month afterwards. 

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Service change outs can be a pain some times. Mostly because you have to schedule with the utility company and the city building department to set up an inspection date.
Personally I would not cut a ring seal or remove the ones that require a tool. I don’t think SCE would allow us to do it in our area.
I did a residential service change out 2 years ago and the inspector came early and passed it but the utility company took until the next day because they had an emergency somewhere else.
Usually it all works out but as 99cents pointed out there is always a plan B.

It’s always better to have 2 “competent” electricians on a service change because it speeds things up and the low man can run parts and get lunch.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Did my first service change last week. Had a meter outside and main panel was 25’ away in the laundry room. Installed meter main outside and changed laundry panel to sub panel. Homeowner was in a hurry so disconnect occurred at 1 pm. I had meter main mounted and wired at 3:30. Passed inspection at 4. Poco energized at 5 and I had the new SER and sub wired by 7. Called in for final the following day. It was pretty damn stressful.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Pull meter , label circuits accordingly, swap panel, reinstall everything in reverse. Has my brain gone in defunked mode ?


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## Matt1 (Jun 15, 2018)

mpcxl said:


> Pull meter , label circuits accordingly, swap panel, reinstall everything in reverse. Has my brain gone in defunked mode ?


Can't do that around here. Meter and panel are in same panel. Have to cut at weather head. After they cut it, you have to finish work then inspector comes and hopefully passes it. If not utility will not reconnect service and customer will be in the dark.


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

"Mobius87" makes a critical point. You'll likely have to schedule your work around the schedule of the inspection department and the POCO. I've only done my own and back then the POCO wanted 48 hrs notice to pull the meter and would re-install only on the inspector's OK. And the inspector was only available in my area one day a week. Remember...failing to plan is planning to fail. Get everything ready BEFORE pulling the plug.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Am I going Insane . Cut at weather head. Do your work accordingly, resplice with rubber tape and bugs carefully so it’s 100%

or if you wanna do it legit , call the pcoco and have them cut off

riddle edit : what’s the difference between a lineman bug splice and an electricians?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

mpcxl said:


> Am I going Insane . Cut at weather head. Do your work accordingly, resplice with rubber tape and bugs carefully so it’s 100%
> 
> or if you wanna do it legit , call the pcoco and have them cut off
> 
> riddle edit : what’s the difference between a lineman bug splice and an electricians?


It works better if you put the bugs on before the rubber tape...

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

All kidding aside, find something better than bugs to splice it in. They loosen up way too easily in the wind. We always crimp for overhead stuff, but we have the tools to do that.

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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Der. I reiterate. Get one of those fancy crimp tools for $3k , then use friction tape and after , call your momma to say how proud you are.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

mpcxl said:


> Der. I reiterate. Get one of those fancy crimp tools for $3k , then use friction tape and after , call your momma to say how proud you are.


You can buy a crimp pliers for a couple hundred bucks. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Forge Boyz said:


> You can buy a crimp pliers for a couple hundred bucks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I don’t know you , but I already like your style

Just so you know , we’re living in the future , get some battery tools

Who wants to be in the air with loppers ?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

mpcxl said:


> Who wants to be in the air with loppers ?


Not me. I use the $3K battery crimper

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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Not me , I like to struggle and use my handle loppers

Well I guess it all depends on what gauge wire


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

mpcxl said:


> Am I going Insane . Cut at weather head. Do your work accordingly, resplice with rubber tape and bugs carefully so it’s 100%
> 
> or if you wanna do it legit , call the pcoco and have them cut off
> 
> riddle edit : what’s the difference between a lineman bug splice and an electricians?


A couple L16's?


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> We can’t pull meters. It can get tricky. Inspector’s last call is around 4 pm. At that time of day the utility switches to night crew. I have had the reconnect done close to 8 pm.
> 
> One time I got disconnected, started taking things apart and realized I could not finish by inspection time. I had to put it back together and get it inspected before it could be reconnected. Then I had to go to Plan B and re-schedule.


...And that's why people don't get permits.
We used to have locks on our meters here. First the POCO would come out to unlock and relock when done.
Then they decided that a union POCO guy taking the time to do that costs more than the electricity they lose to thieves -since anyone could come out with a grinder to cut the locks anyway.

...So then it became OUR job to cut the locks with a grinder.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Coppersmith said:


> Connecting old circuits to AFCI's or GFCI's is a recipe for disaster. You are very likely to get a circuit that won't hold. The NEC allows the conductors inside the panel to be extended up to six feet without adding AFCI's. I do everything in my power to stay within that six foot limit which is difficult if you have to relocate a panel.
> 
> If you don't want to spend extra hours troubleshooting, it's also very important to put panels back together exactly like they were. This means: all hots should be on the same phases they came off; not putting a white conductor from a two pole breaker on the neutral bar; and if a red conductor is grounded, ground it. The only change I will make is to downsize a breaker that is too large for the wire it's connected to.


I live in a land of pre-1900 victorians. I put old circuits on AFCIs every week. Just tell your customers it might be part of the job. If you have a good reputation, they will trust you (and frankly, I don't want to work for people who don't trust me).

Nobody has ever complained that I charged an extra $100-$200 to troubleshoot an AFCI/GFCI problem. 9 times out of 10, the issue is a shared neutral. That takes about 10 minutes to troubleshoot and I don't bother charging if I did really well on the job. Sometimes I'll add $50 for labor since that's what I charge to change a breaker.
(And in either case adjust the materials charge obviously)

I love AFCI panels; no guessing as to which terminal the previous electrician popped the neutral into.

I've made a google document to give to customers that explains everything they need to do before a service. For those who opt for AFCI/GFCI upgrades, I include this :

"Side note #2: Please keep in mind that if there is a problem after installing a GFCI, AFCI, or Dual Protection device, that this is a separate issue (trouble-shooting) that must be dealt with. These devices find problems; that's what their job is. Don't be upset if these devices trip. They are tripping because they are protecting you or your home!" 

All you have to do is communicate to your customers before hand and they will be loyal to you for your expertise and ability to explain a job, plus your honesty for not coming up with (to their minds) a suspicious "extra".


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## Texas DIYer (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm just a DIYer, but no one in this thread has mentioned the service conductors. I understand Matt1 wants to swap a 100A service for a 200A service. The service conductors for the 100A can be #1 AWG, but a 200A will require 4/0.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

Texas DIYer said:


> I'm just a DIYer, but no one in this thread has mentioned the service conductors. I understand Matt1 wants to swap a 100A service for a 200A service. The service conductors for the 100A can be #1 AWG, but a 200A will require 4/0.


I'm not sure that he actually said that. here's his quote:



Matt1 said:


> If I'm upgrading a panel with multiple circuits (100 to 200 amp) what's the process?


I think he meant "if I'm changing a panel that's between 100 and 200 amps big ..." but you could be right as well. The English usage is confusing. Regardless, yes, if you upsize a panel you have to properly size the service conductors, but the POCO doesn't and usually won't. I have called the POCO many times to tell them I upsized a panel and their response is "Okay" and then they don't do anything except wait to see if the drop burns up.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Poco goes by a different code of ethics. I’ve seen them run one 1/0 aluminum for parallel copper 500’s. I guess they figure , if it burns up , it’ll be outside

To them , 100 amps is penny pushing

Everything is oversized , for the most part


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## Texas DIYer (Apr 7, 2021)

mpcxl said:


> Poco goes by a different code of ethics. I’ve seen them run one 1/0 aluminum for parallel copper 500’s. I guess they figure , if it burns up , it’ll be outside
> 
> To them , 100 amps is penny pushing
> 
> Everything is oversized , for the most part


Agreed. Most panels rarely see full load for long. However, some parts of the system need to be designed for the max amperage they will see not the average, and fire is still fire.


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## JSwanson (Aug 26, 2017)

mpcxl said:


> Pull meter , label circuits accordingly, swap panel, reinstall everything in reverse. Has my brain gone in defunked mode ?


Not that simple in many areas. Here is the process in our area: POCO has to pull the meter, we perform the installation, POCO inspects the service, AHJ inspects the panel and grounding then releases to POCO, who then comes out and reconnects. 

There is a lot of coordination that has to happen and you have to be mindful of shift changes and of course the inspectors schedule.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I live in a land of pre-1900 victorians. I put old circuits on AFCIs every week. Just tell your customers it might be part of the job. If you have a good reputation, they will trust you (and frankly, I don't want to work for people who don't trust me).


Yesterday's job: Panel replacement, track a couple of "mystery" circuits, implement plan to add grounded receptacles, ...and add dual protection to 2 old non-grounded circuits so they can keep their entire 2nd floor's worth of 3-prong receptacles.
2 hours later I had found (4) circuits that shared neutrals.
1 shared all 4
2 shared 3
3 shared 1
4 shared "none" ...meaning that there is probably a neutral that is only shared on a switched line with number 1

Solution: merge the circuits into 2 circuits on a DP GFCI.
Side benefit: 2 circuits were in #12 with 20A CBs ...but led to a junction box and #14cables. Now they are properly protected. $ pieces of BX were replaced by a single piece of 14/3 which helped to clean up the panel and made it clear(er) to future electricians that these are on a shared neutral system (also left notes on panel label and on J-box cover).
Next job: strategically add new receptacles throughout the building., (which was part of the plan anyway, but this allowed us to modify the plan more sensibly).

Result: I get paid well for "doing the right thing".
My customers are SO GLAD that I found these issues. Like most people they understand that it was not likely that they were going to die in a fire, but they are happy that:
A). They can "legally" keep the 3-prong receptacles they have, and
B). They are safer just in case. "Just in case" may be relevant here. Pic is from the old panel; the entire bus bar shows over-heating ...on a panel with lots of breakers and relatively little load (only 1 DP breaker for an electric dryer). That said, the panel was really old too so that may be a factor.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Coppersmith said:


> Connecting old circuits to AFCI's or GFCI's is a recipe for disaster. You are very likely to get a circuit that won't hold. The NEC allows the conductors inside the panel to be extended up to six feet without adding AFCI's. I do everything in my power to stay within that six foot limit which is difficult if you have to relocate a panel.
> 
> If you don't want to spend extra hours troubleshooting, it's also very important to put panels back together exactly like they were. This means: all hots should be on the same phases they came off; not putting a white conductor from a two pole breaker on the neutral bar; and if a red conductor is grounded, ground it. The only change I will make is to downsize a breaker that is too large for the wire it's connected to.


I label everything, write it down, and take photos on every retrofit. Mismarked wiring gets remarked. This may seem like overkill but you’d be amazed how often a label gets knocked off or something gets wrote down wrong.


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