# generator separation info needed



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd have to see a manual with exploded diagram. Can you take an ohm reading of the rotor? I would think if you couldn't get partial voltage out of it by putting some dc to the rotor, possible bad rotor or stator.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> I'd have to see a manual with exploded diagram. Can you take an ohm reading of the rotor? I would think if you couldn't get partial voltage out of it by putting some dc to the rotor, possible bad rotor or stator.


*********************

Thanks for the reply!

As my initial posts states - I am looking to get the end bell off and, I see no way to access anything unless i do so....I got no voltage after failure and no voltage after my attempt at flashing.....This unit has NEVER been overloaded and has only approx. 85 intermittent hours on it not including the every month start up.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

I have a user manual with a crappy parts breakdown but, have not yet scanned that page.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you can take an ohm reading across the slip rings, I'd guess maybe a value 9-22ohms. Stator readings are really low. You put like 12v dc to the rotor, from the electric start battery?

Do you have an actual model number? Trying to find something useful on the powermate website.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Thanks for the reply.

I will re-state all this again;

* I cannot access anything unless I remove the end cap bell. Resistance readings and the like will be NOT relevant unless the end comes off for me to accomplish that/this....I see of no way to attach picts here in this forum else I would have.*


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The picture thing is something I have to figure out again. Others better versed in that hopefully can help. Was hoping if you got at the brushes, you could get at the slip rings. This a vertical mounted generator?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

generating pain said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I will re-state all this again;
> 
> * I cannot access anything unless I remove the end cap bell. Resistance readings and the like will be NOT relevant unless the end comes off for me to accomplish that/this....I see of no way to attach picts here in this forum else I would have.*


did you try to use the paperclip logo it may help you some but being that you are a new member in here you will need at least 20 posting before the picture attachment work properly. 

did you check the AVR ? sometime some generators do used the capacitor for AVR function. 

there should be a small opening on back end of generator that you can open up and see what is going on and yes some of portable generators do have 12 volt stator coil in the main stator and if you see that burnted then it will not make any power at all.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> The picture thing is something I have to figure out again. Others better versed in that hopefully can help. Was hoping if you got at the brushes, you could get at the slip rings. This a vertical mounted generator?


*********************
I can pop a blank cover off the end of the generator and remove the brushes but, the "lug" connector connecting to each brush is extreemly short and tends to want to slide back into the bell cover. Yes, this is a vertically mounted gen.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Bear with me, how did you field flash the unit?


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> did you try to use the paperclip logo it may help you some but being that you are a new member in here you will need at least 20 posting before the picture attachment work properly.
> 
> did you check the AVR ? sometime some generators do used the capacitor for AVR function.
> 
> there should be a small opening on back end of generator that you can open up and see what is going on and yes some of portable generators do have 12 volt stator coil in the main stator and if you see that burnted then it will not make any power at all.


**********************
Thanks for the reply....Suppose i will have to wait for "20" to come up to post picts which will better explain the situation....As I have stated, I cannot acess a darned thing w/out the end cap off.....The manual indicated to apply a 6vdc source such as from a lantern battery to the brushes momentarily and attempt to re-start and, if that doesn't work, to repeat the procedure. I have to get this up and running since losing almost everything in 2004 and last week the same.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We don't usually split small units like that.
Maybe try smokstak.com

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68414


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Bear with me, how did you field flash the unit?


*
*****************

see post #11.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Didn't see that ok. Usually putting DC to that will get you at least partial voltage if the windings are good. Both rotor and stator. Wondering if now somethings opened up.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> We don't usually split small units like that.
> Maybe try smokstak.com
> 
> https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68414


*
***************************

*Thanks for the reply*...I have 4 e-mails out with an attached pict to the site mentioned and not a single reply....This is a 275lb beast and not small unless you compare it to the industrial units.

If I unscrew the 4 LONG BOLTS there is still a bolt dead center of the bell cover with the brushes at each side of it. I do not want to damage any rotating masses and not sure what needs to be "undone" to get at the electronic components i need to inspect.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Didn't see that ok. Usually putting DC to that will get you at least partial voltage if the windings are good. Both rotor and stator. Wondering if now somethings opened up.


******************

I couldn't say only that it was producing smooth consistent voltage and not even using 1/3 of its rated *run* capacity...Heck, All I did was shut it off and ck oil and refill gas as in my initial first post...Doubt any burns or open/shorted windings.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> Didn't see that ok. Usually putting DC to that will get you at least partial voltage if the windings are good. Both rotor and stator. Wondering if now somethings opened up.


That I been wondering about that and with single bangers ( single cylinder engines ) intened to make a bit of viberations so any one of the connection can get loosen over the time and with most gasoline portable generator useally spin at 3600 RPM so something have to give away with that high a rpm plus viberation.,,

To OP check the rotor recficter to make sure the connection is soldered good as I mention above those is one of few common cuprits on small gasoline or diesel two pole generators.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

generating pain said:


> **********************
> Thanks for the reply....Suppose i will have to wait for "20" to come up to post picts which will better explain the situation....As I have stated, I cannot acess a darned thing w/out the end cap off.....The manual indicated to apply a 6vdc source such as from a lantern battery to the brushes momentarily and attempt to re-start and, if that doesn't work, to repeat the procedure. I have to get this up and running since losing almost everything in 2004 and last week the same.


6 volts will not do it .,, you need at least 12 volts to kick it good you can flash it either at rotor connection or stator either one will kick start the generator side. but before you do that as I mention my recent posting the viberation can make any connection come loose so check everything what you can able reach in.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> That I been wondering about that and with single bangers ( single cylinder engines ) intened to make a bit of viberations so any one of the connection can get loosen over the time and with most gasoline portable generator useally spin at 3600 RPM so something have to give away with that high a rpm plus viberation.,,
> 
> To OP check the rotor recficter to make sure the connection is soldered good as I mention above those is one of few common cuprits on small gasoline or diesel two pole generators.


*****************

Thanks for the reply.

As I stated, I cannot access anything....I have checked ALL exposed or accessible wiring and connections and find no anomalies.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe a little more than 3600 when mechanically governed, looking for about 62.5hz no load. Stuff goes with normal use too, unfortunately. The big question is, not having access to part numbers, is once you find out what's wrong, are parts available? Powermate is or was Pramac, both now under the Generac banner.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

hang tight...attempting a work-a-round to post picts


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Hold the start button in the on position a few seconds after it cranks up.

One of our recent customers had a small scare with their new generator. Nothing dramatic, just puzzling. The engine started normally and everything seemed 100%, except for one issue: no electricity was being generated to the main terminals or the convenience outlet. Frustrating to say the least.

The customer and GMG tried most of the common checks with no affect. Here were the symptoms:

Engine ran fine
No electricity at convenience outlet
No electricity at terminals
Nothing on the Hz/frequency or Voltage meter
Our customer was patient with our requests to double-check common items such as:

Making sure the master phase selector switch was in the 110/220 volt position (3 o’clock)
Making sure the master breaker was on
Making sure the small breaker for the convenience outlet was on (pushed in)
Making sure the readout selector on the Control Panel was set to the correct setting (single phase, 110/220 volt). This MUST match the Phase Selector Switch. You can play with this while the unit is running. You would want the voltage meter to read 240 volt and the frequency meter to read 60 Hz (corresponding to an engine speed of 1800 rpms).
Still nothing! Ugh! Our incredibly resourceful customer did a quick Google search and found that these symptoms are associated with a non-energized electrical field in the generator head (windings). While the unit was running, but not generating electricity, he set the master switch to the “Start” position for 3 seconds to “flash/energize” the electrical field within the generator head. This worked!

We wanted to dig a little more deeply, so we provided the scenario to our technical staff. They had more color to add to what was going on. As with all military generators the Master Switch is to be held in the start position long enough to start the engine AND excite the field windings in the generator itself. The operating instructions on the side of the unit states “Move Master Switch to Start position and hold until the engine runs continuously.” Even the newer units require you to hold in the start position after the engine is running to excite the field windings. Not all generators are identical. Some excite right away. Others take a few seconds. There is an Anti-Restart switch on the engine that disengages the starter after the engine starts. No harm will come to the starter after the engine has been started and the Master Switch held in Start.

Note that this is one of the many items that our tech team tests during the refurbishment process.

So, make sure to hold the Start Switch in the start position until the engine is 100% running continuously plus a couple of seconds and you can avoid this inconvenience. Manually “flashing” or “energizing” the unit is still possible by simply holding the switch in the Start position for a couple of seconds even after the unit has been running.

Hope this helps more folks out there and reduces some blood pressures! As always, send us your questions and tips so that others can benefit! Note that the above pertains to MEP-002A and MEP-003A units, but may also pertain to other models.

https://greenmountaingenerators.com...r-is-not-generating-but-the-engine-runs-help/


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The bolt in the center may be the rotor bolt which retains the rotor to the crank of the engine. Usually a tapered shaft on the crank. And yes that's a heavy portable.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

CAN ANYONE OPEN THIS (PICT).

<a href="http://s262.photobucket.com/user/badabing9/media/bottom%20view%20of%20gen..jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii92/badabing9/bottom%20view%20of%20gen..jpg" border="0" alt="bottom with brush holders shoing photo bottom view of gen..jpg"/></a>


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii92/badabing9/muffler and end of gen that contacts engine_1.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/...ing on gas tank side looking down at it_2.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/...nd brush acess-left is neg right is pos_2.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii92/badabing9/side panel close up_1.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii92/badabing9/hurricane 013_1.jpg


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No unfortunately, same problem I have with photobucket, I think you need to pay now for it to work like that. Doesn't deter others from posting pics, I need to relearn...


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> No unfortunately


********************

Not even the 5 links i posted?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

nope, says need to change your account to allow third party hosting. I think it means you need to pay.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> nope, says need to change your account to allow third party hosting. I think it means you need to pay.


*************************

wow!....I thought I read something that said I could post attachments from a "hosting" site.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The photobucket thing is something recent, that's what I used to use. There may be others, I don't know though. Admittedly not very tech savvy. Sorry.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> The photobucket thing is something recent, that's what I used to use. There may be others, I don't know though. Admittedly not very tech savvy. Sorry.


*
******************************

damn!, Looks like I have to find another site, maybe tomorrow.

**HEY EVERYONE, THINGS HAVE BEEN TOUGH HERE SINCE THE STORM AND I APPRECIATE THE HELP AND ASSISTANCE STARTING OVER...I WILL FIND ANOTHER SITE AND ATTEMPT TO POST TOMORROW.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Can you post a model number? Must be a tag on there somewhere. That way some of us can track down some manuals. Maybe even a service manual, see what's available for parts. Looks like it starts with PM.

The engine will have its own model and serial in couple of places. Don't need that.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Can you post a model number? Must be a tag on there somewhere. That way some of us can track down some manuals. Maybe even a service manual, see what's available for parts. Looks like it starts with PM.
> 
> The engine will have its own model and serial in couple of places. Don't need that.


*************************
This is what I have as listed in my first post *COLEMAN VERTEX 7850 GENERATOR*....

I have all the paperwork and will see if i can locate any serial numbers tomorrow.
If you go to utube and type that* (COLEMAN VERTEX 7850 GENERATOR)* in, you will see video of that generator. Will ck back to this tomorrow.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

generating pain said:


> *************************
> This is what I have as listed in my first post *COLEMAN VERTEX 7850 GENERATOR*....
> 
> I have all the paperwork and will see if i can locate any serial numbers tomorrow.
> If you go to utube and type that* (COLEMAN VERTEX 7850 GENERATOR)* in, you will see video of that generator. Will ck back to this tomorrow.


You will have to understand that the reason why we asked for both model and serial number due over the time they will make a running change on that model so it will make it easier to look it up in correct way. 

there is both model and serial number right on the control panel somewhere on your generator unit. you cant miss that. it should be right on the info plate or sticker.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*Someone try opening these links.*

https://ibb.co/kPROPQ
https://ibb.co/fVSV4Q
https://ibb.co/djZor5
https://ibb.co/gUBeyk
https://ibb.co/ezZor5
https://ibb.co/fxfiPQ


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I can see those photos now thanks. I think the model number is PM0558023.01 or something similar. Entering that on a site like

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/powermate-pm055802301-generator-parts-c-117046_130613_130628.html

and you can start to see whats available.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> I can see those photos now thanks. I think the model number is PM0558023.01 or something similar. Entering that on a site like
> 
> https://www.ereplacementparts.com/powermate-pm055802301-generator-parts-c-117046_130613_130628.html
> 
> and you can start to see whats available.


********************

Thanks for the reply....I am attempting to "upload" the parts listings and 3-4 other picts as we speak.

I looked in materials supplied with gen and found;
"FOR PM0558023, REFER TO PM0558023 IN YOUR MANUAL, EXCEPT FOR THE PARTS LIST. THIS INSERT REPLACES PAGES 35 AND 36 OF YOUR MANUAL".

Then goes on to read;* PM0558023.01 parts list* with part numbers and descriptions.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I found what I thought to be your manual, and I see where it says to use the 6v battery. It goes on to talk about removing the endbell by removing the four bolts at the corners and the whole thing should come off. On most of what I work on, the bearing is press fit into that housing so I use a rubber tipped hammer and work my way around to tap it off. This may be different so I don't want you to inadvertantly damage your bearing.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

https://ibb.co/eYbMdk

https://ibb.co/diydPQ

https://ibb.co/egkEyk

https://ibb.co/jTtTPQ

https://ibb.co/e3y6B5

https://ibb.co/e0jeW5


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> I found what I thought to be your manual, and I see where it says to use the 6v battery. It goes on to talk about removing the endbell by removing the four bolts at the corners and the whole thing should come off. On most of what I work on, the bearing is press fit into that housing so I use a rubber tipped hammer and work my way around to tap it off. This may be different so I don't want you to inadvertantly damage your bearing.


*****************************
Thanks for the reply!*

Looking at the diagrams, you will see a single bolt located between the 2 brushes.....The other day I applied a socket to it and I believe I feel a "mass" rotating......I assume this goes directly into that mass....If so, in order for me to remove the end cap bell I would have to stop that mass from rotating....Also, Is there no way to remove just the end cap to get at the electronics as opposed to removing the entire gen portion?....What i am afraid of is after removing the 4 bolts which are a bit difficult to get at, that the rotating mass (rotor???) will "crash" into the steel surrounding it and cause irreparable and further damage....I also don't know how much weight that gen part when removed will be.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That is the rotor bolt that retains the rotor to the crank of the motor. It looked as if in that if you lay the unit over as you did in the picture you posted so now the whole thing is horzontal and remove the four corner bolts, the endbell should come off in one piece.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Within that housing, it looks like there is a capacitor, a couple of diodes and the avr.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> That is the rotor bolt that retains the rotor to the crank of the motor. It looked as if in that if you lay the unit over as you did in the picture you posted so now the whole thing is horzontal and remove the four corner bolts, the endbell should come off in one piece.


****************

Thanks VERY MUCH for the reply!*

I will give it a try but, If I remove the 4 bolts, won't the entire gen fall straight down being detached from motor??....It looks as if the 4 bolts holds the end bell on, "casing" too, and affixes it/all to the motor....Also, i am not sure if the center bolt pictured in the attachments also holds on the endbell or, if that bolt protrudes in a pre-cut opening in the end bell.
I apologize for not knowing gen parts by name. I will rectify that shortly.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The rotor bolt should only hold on the rotor. Lay it on its side so that when removing the four corner bolts, the stator housing won't come off. Don't worry about terminology, you're doing fine.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> The rotor bolt should only hold on the rotor. Lay it on its side so that when removing the four corner bolts, the stator housing won't come off. Don't worry about terminology, you're doing fine.


**********************************

The rotor bolt should only hold on the rotor.
****Ok, so removing that bolt will not allow anything to "drop"? Removing the 4 long bolts should "detach" the large steel/iron square encasement to fall will it not?...Should that happen, will it not damage the rotor (rotating mass)?


Lay it on its side so that when removing the four corner bolts, the stator housing won't come off. Don't worry about terminology, you're doing fine
****Just answered my question ha! I will lay it on it's side as depicted in the picts and remove the 4 bolts. Looking at the end cap close-up at the center bolt, it would appear that the center bolt does not assist it holding the endbell cap (hope i am correct!) and that the bolt only protrudes through the case by way of the cutout in the end cap case. I will tackle this probably tomorrow as I need to rest my hurting body (I am disabled). Thanks again for the assistance.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Doing it on its side will help control everything. Its heavy.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Did I miss the part where he checked the winding for continuity? You know, stick your meter on the AC output wires and see if it's got an open coil. Generators are not the answer. Solar with some batteries has a lot less moving parts.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I tend to agree, though at this stage of the game to implement that, would cost a whole lot more coin. I do look forward to being able to cut the cord. Good on you and the rest that are getting us closer to that.

Do those set ups not typically need a generator for those days when the batteries aren't getting enough back from the solar?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Unless you have the exact feel on how to split that back end, you are going to pull those little wires out, smash it or both.
That diode set part has to be ordered no matter what. Best to have it on hand if you are determined to take it apart.
I don't see why you can tap that back piece off with a soft hammer.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Doing it on its side will help control everything. Its heavy.


********************************

On it's side it will go...may even string up some rope across the frame under it just in case.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Unless you have the exact feel on how to split that back end, you are going to pull those little wires out, smash it or both.
> That diode set part has to be ordered no matter what. Best to have it on hand if you are determined to take it apart.
> I don't see why you can tap that back piece off with a soft hammer.


**********************

Unless you have the exact feel on how to split that back end, you are going to pull those little wires out, smash it or both.
***If "little wires" refers to the wires going out to the brushes, I can remove them from the brush holders with needle nose and push back into the bell.*

That diode set part has to be ordered no matter what. Best to have it on hand if you are determined to take it apart.
***I am into electronics so, I can check the diodes, etc and see what goes then, order parts that have failed.*

I don't see why you can tap that back piece off with a soft hammer
***Can or cannot? Either way looks like the 4 long bolts are coming out and wires to brushes are being removed also.*


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

[QUOdTE=nrp3;4371345]I tend to agree, though at this stage of the game to implement that, would cost a whole lot more coin. I do look forward to being able to cut the cord. Good on you and the rest that are getting us closer to that.

Do those set ups not typically need a generator for those days when the batteries aren't getting enough back from the solar?[/QUOTE]

You can easly buy the parts for a 2000 watt inverter, two 290 watt modules, a 60 amp charge controller and some batteries for around $2000. 

That should cover an emergency better than a generator.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Then tie all that to a small subpanel?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

generating pain said:


> **********************
> 
> Unless you have the exact feel on how to split that back end, you are going to pull those little wires out, smash it or both.
> ***If "little wires" refers to the wires going out to the brushes, I can remove them from the brush holders with needle nose and push back into the bell.*
> ...


Just saying that it's very easy to smash that diode set and break the wires.
I wouldn't take it apart unless I had those parts ready to go back in.

How did you do holding the start button in for an extended time, extra few seconds?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> Then tie all that to a small subpanel?


It's not a grid tie inverter, so if you tied it to any panel, you would use a transfer switch (same as a generator)

You didn't quote @backstay , so I don't think he saw this ... he should respond soon :thumbsup:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

backstay said:


> You can easly buy the parts for a 2000 watt inverter, two 290 watt modules, a 60 amp charge controller and some batteries for around $2000.
> 
> That should cover an emergency better than a generator.


If I could prices like that up here in the great white, I'd have one on my shed !
Easily double those prices up here


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Greetings all!,

Back to this. 
Looked at various vids on u-tube about similar designs for Coleman. Will attempt to remove end bell cover in next 48 hours. Saw a few diodes in vids and, in mine, looking through the side "venting" of the bell cover, can see at least one electrolytic capacitor. 

Will rig up a rope "sling" across the frame-work of gen to suspend the stator(?) should it become dislodged. Saw a vid where a voltage measurement was take at the brush connects so, may try this also

As long as any windings are not bad, I believe I have a shot at getting this patient back on it's feet. Again, I really do *thank you*:thumbsup: for the assistance!


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## LowVoltageGuy (Jan 6, 2017)

(I didn't wade thru all the posts...) did you try calling Briggs support 800-743-4115 portable gens....800-731-2989 whole house. I believe they make the coleman gens.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LowVoltageGuy said:


> (I didn't wade thru all the posts...) did you try calling Briggs support 800-743-4115 portable gens....800-731-2989 whole house. I believe they make the coleman gens.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



************************

You should have "waded" through the posts. Briggs for what I know make/made the MOTOR, the gen was made or at least carried by Coleman. The issue is with the gen, not the motor. Briggs will tell me "squat" relating to my issue. My first describes the issue and the rest leans to separating the gen from the motor and then seeing what damage I have and getting this back on it's feet.


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## LowVoltageGuy (Jan 6, 2017)

generating pain said:


> ************************
> 
> You should have "waded" through the posts. Briggs for what I know make/made the MOTOR, the gen was made or at least carried by Coleman. The issue is with the gen, not the motor. Briggs will tell me "squat" relating to my issue. My first describes the issue and the rest leans to separating the gen from the motor and then seeing what damage I have and getting this back on it's feet.


My mistake. ..just checked with briggs. ...they don't make them for coleman. Good luck.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Generac owns power mate. They may have been made by Pramac. Some of those part numbers show up on my dealer site. Some of it's not available, but we have to figure out what's wrong first.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I wonder if he just decided to smash the thing up with a sledgehammer and claim it as a hurricane loss to FEMA.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> I wonder if he just decided to smash the thing up with a sledgehammer and claim it as a hurricane loss to FEMA.


**************************

Impatient aren't we??

Well, got it apart w/out issue so far. Going to replace all the BELL guts bad or not. Posted picts here if they make it.

here is link for what appears to be my gen set-up. Not sure if links are allowed here. 




*


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*Here are the last two:*


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I could find diodes, but no avr or capacitor on my service site, though that doesn't mean it's not out there. Take an ohm reading on the rotor slip ring to slip ring. Look for shorts to the frame both on the rotor and the stator. Worth a look while you have it apart.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> I could find diodes, but no avr or capacitor on my service site, though that doesn't mean it's not out there. Take an ohm reading on the rotor slip ring to slip ring. Look for shorts to the frame both on the rotor and the stator. Worth a look while you have it apart.


*******************
Thanks for the reply.*

Found a site that the capacitance was "increased" for "performance and longevity"....Found a site for the diodes but, out of stock till mid October....Found some on ebay but, think the guys written specs are wrong for what he has. He has 600v at* 25 amps* yet, that numbers' specs (taken from vid and not mine) are;
Repetitive Reverse Voltage Vrrm Max;.................... 600v
Forward Current If(AV);......................................... *40A*
Forward Voltage VF Max;..................................... 1.19V

Found a few compatible diodes meeting the current, case, voltages but, will hold off a bit longer on those. Haven't looked for an AVR yet.

*Slip-rings,* the surface area where the brushes ride on I presume? I thought I watched a vid showing there is supposed to be continuity between the two but, forgot approx ohm readings for same.
Damn - I will look on utube to figure out what part is what and report back. Not knowing some part names of gens are definitely a hindrance!


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You need some resistance between slip rings and I bet somewhere 9-22 ohms. Stator resistance is usually very low. Low enough that your meter may not be accurate . Don't have any values for that.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

And yes the spots where the brushes ride.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Thanks for the reply(ies).

Tomorrow I will check whatever resistances and values I can. I have one or two accurate digital meters which will be sufficient.

To note, The vid I posted (link) is apparently showing a gen with NO AVR in it, mine has one.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Ahh I see it and that is a common one I have see around here in my area.

there is a small windings coil inside the stator that is a 12 volt circuit for the rotor circuit and if that small winding show a burnt mark on it or open winding then you will get noting coming out on that part.

the small 12 volt rotor coil circuit in the stator will be useally on one side of the stator in there. some models will have two small 12 volt rotor stator circuit in there.

most common failure is useally capacitor going bad or AVR toasted.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Hang in there you've almost got er whipped.


:lol:


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> Ahh I see it and that is a common one I have see around here in my area.
> 
> There is a small windings coil inside the stator that is a 12 volt circuit for the rotor circuit and if that small winding show a burnt mark on it or open winding then you will get noting coming out on that part.
> 
> ...


********************************

Thanks for the reply!*
I have another question - 
I did read that if the capacitor takes a dump, I will cause the gen to generate "squat". When hunting for the capacitor, There is a site selling a "cap" rated at almost 200uf 240v instead of the 130uf this unit uses. If I installed this cap would it make a difference? (I know the current/voltage will shift a bit but, don't know if any ill or unwanted effects).

**Lastly, when I joined here I made a typo in the city/state section of my profile. The state is spelled incorrectly - Can you fix that - Should be Florida.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> Hang in there you've almost got er whipped.
> 
> 
> :lol:


****************************
Thanks for the pep-talk*!

Damn, I can wire a building blindfolded but, cannot identify gen parts! Maybe I should not have been sleeping in class decades ago!:blink:

I do know that I have to get this up and running. Storms wiped me out in 2004 and again a few weeks ago. Insurance deductables down here still leave one hurting.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Ok, thought I had posted this but, forgot to "apply it".

Find the attached picture (and a few others) showing the areas or points that I checked out with ohm meter this morning. Seems my digital went "belly-up" so, had to use an analog meter which may not be "right 0n". Just visually follow the lines to see test points. Found no shorts and an ohm/resistance reading between the slip rings.

This is turning out to be a crap day in that, my drivers side window of vehicle will not work!...ugh!....I am haunted.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Sounds like the rotor is ok.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Also let looks like there may be a revised act available that may replace the one you have and maybe the capacitor and diodes. Just search for the Coleman part number on the avr you have.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Also let looks like there may be a revised act available that may replace the one you have and maybe the capacitor and diodes. Just search for the Coleman part number on the avr you have.


******************************

Thanks for the reply.*

I have all the info written down and have some "feelers" put out on availability. believe I can get the cap but, with an increased capacitance from 130uf to 200uf; would that be acceptable in this application?

Have info on diodes and plan on buying 4 instead of 2 (spares). Some manufacturers have changed or applied different part numbers but, it would appear that the 600v 40I remains the same.

Have an e-mail out attempting to find an AVR which is what i think you meant when you wrote; _"let looks like there may be a revised act available"_ .

Based on my inked readings in the attached pict, looks good?


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Also let looks like there may be a revised act available that may replace the one you have and maybe the capacitor and diodes. Just search for the Coleman part number on the avr you have.


*********************

Part #'s info on AVR is BOTH numbers below. It can somewhat be seen in one of the picts.-

*Coleman 
240v PN 0052627
ICM PN AB3101-240*


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

generating pain said:


> ********************************
> 
> Thanks for the reply!*
> I have another question -
> ...


I know working on stereos you can increase the voltage rating on a cap as long as the farad remains the same. In fact, increasing the voltage rating is quite preferable as it is engineered to the minimum standards keeping cost low. The strereos work better being recapped in a higher voltage. I don't know if this applies here or not. I did look through my cap bank and found nothing in your range. The closest I found was 300V 100 uf.

I'm surprised you don't have access to a cap tester.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> I know working on stereos you can increase the voltage rating on a cap as long as the farad remains the same. In fact, increasing the voltage rating is quite preferable as it is engineered to the minimum standards keeping cost low. The strereos work better being recapped in a higher voltage. I don't know if this applies here or not. I did look through my cap bank and found nothing in your range. The closest I found was 300V 100 uf.
> 
> I'm surprised you don't have access to a cap tester.


*********************
Thanks for the reply. *

I am aware of all this as I studied and school, am a ham operator, etc. Yes, increasing the voltage is something I usually try to do but, dealing with this situation, adding or subtracting capacitances will phase shift (lead or lag) the current/voltage relationship. My bigger problem is to find a AVR first which will be replaced by me one way or another.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*UPDATES;*

I spent some time on ebay and as many gen sites as I can find . It seems that, unless someone pulled an AVR from a scrapped unit, a replacement of same type is going to be very rare.

I did find AVR boards that would be a replacement but, it would require in some cases that the end bell cover would have to be modified with a hole being cut in the bell case because the capacitor on the new board may stand a bit tall causing the end bell not to fit as designed.

I think I can solve that by un-soldering the legs of the cap on the board and extending them so that the cap can be bent over and secured to the replacement board with adhesive caulk or bees wax which I believe dries very hard.

*NOW ANOTHER PROBLEM;*

The "Y" wiring harness to fit and adapt this board is no longer made - no place! I did inquire to a company whom said that they may have a solution and would e-mail me back on Monday. If nothing occurs, I will have to locate my own connectors and plugs and make it up myself.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I know you want to get this thing running but, there is usually a reason those units evolve away from a particular design.
I have a vertical 7kw that I think I bought for $1,800 several years ago. I wouldn't expect to find parts and quite frankly wouldn't even look knowing that it would let me down again on another failed part.
That generator ran my house for a day and I handed it off to one of my guys and he ran it everyday for about 5 days.
Those older small units should be considered throwaways after 100 hours or so.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to buy another small unit like than buy and keep those power and control parts on hand.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> I know you want to get this thing running but, there is usually a reason those units evolve away from a particular design.
> I have a vertical 7kw that I think I bought for $1,800 several years ago. I wouldn't expect to find parts and quite frankly wouldn't even look knowing that it would let me down again on another failed part.
> That generator ran my house for a day and I handed it off to one of my guys and he ran it everyday for about 5 days.
> Those older small units should be considered throwaways after 100 hours or so.
> ...


Those common portable 3600 rpm units useally dont last super long on service life and most part they design is basically throwaway items and the last time I check the price of new stator it was basically almost third to half price of new units so most of my portables I get are typically slow 1800 rpm units they last much longer.

the one I have portable diesel slow speed unit already past 3500 running hours and about got pretty much wornout now. so I am planning to get a new one soon.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> I know you want to get this thing running but, there is usually a reason those units evolve away from a particular design.
> I have a vertical 7kw that I think I bought for $1,800 several years ago. I wouldn't expect to find parts and quite frankly wouldn't even look knowing that it would let me down again on another failed part.
> That generator ran my house for a day and I handed it off to one of my guys and he ran it everyday for about 5 days.
> Those older small units should be considered throwaways after 100 hours or so.
> ...


****************************
Thanks for the reply*.

Don't know what to say other that I see not much else that could take a dump in this unit. I learned (from this site) that accessibility was rather simple. In previous posts I believed that the gen once unbolted, would fall flat but it didn't. I also took precautions if it did in picts I posted. 

Some of the units I have seen were quite "cluttered and cramped" but, mine wasn't. The voltage was rock steady and had enough current for me to do anything. 

I have very few hours on this unit except for running for 3 hrs in 2004 and intermittently Monday thru Thursday after hurricane Irma. To me she's a keeper until I get a catastrophic failure.

From the multiple e-mails I have exchanged with companies, the replacement board is an upgrade so, that would be a plus in my favor----except for the scarce "Y" harness which, if I had to build I could reluctantly manage.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Here is the harness -

Here are picts of replacement board -


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

generating pain said:


> Here is the harness -
> 
> Here are picts of replacement board -


Did that connector cable melt?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you can't find the y cord, what's the worst that can happen? Make some decent splices if you need to. I think as long as you have a connector for the board you're probably ok.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Did that connector cable melt?


********************

Thanks for the reply.*

What is pictured is NOT my original cable but is the replacement. Also, NO, nothing burned, melted or otherwise.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> If you can't find the y cord, what's the worst that can happen? Make some decent splices if you need to. I think as long as you have a connector for the board you're probably ok.


*******************

Thanks for the reply.*

I would have to get 3 connectors as there are 3 plugs in the "Y" and a few others connections (male/female) so that I could connect to rest of circuit.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Looks like a Molex connector to me.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you have time and can source parts and repair it for less than half the cost of a new equivalent unit, why not.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Just another question if I may - 

Looking at the pictures that I previously posted in this thread, you will see the slip rings pictured...
1)....Which one of the 2 would be neg or pos?.....
2)....nearest the center of the armature?....

My manual shows a battery for flashing procedure and shows a polarity on the battery and wires (lines in the drawing) but, since it did not specifically mention which brush was neg or pos I fear that it is for demonstrative purposes....

3)....Lastly, I would imaging that I will still have to flash gen after installing upgraded board, right? (should the connectors to the brushes be disconnected for this as to not feed back power to the the circuit board?


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Looks like a Molex connector to me.


*****************
Thanks for the reply -*

Yes, it does and it sorta looks similar to computer power supply connectors.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> If you have time and can source parts and repair it for less than half the cost of a new equivalent unit, why not.


*****************

Yup!*... I have to see what that supplier has in store for me (the one whom is to mail me tomorrow), else i would have ordered the board already.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you're just flashing the field with D.C. Battery with nothing else connected polarity won't matter.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> If you're just flashing the field with D.C. Battery with nothing else connected polarity won't matter.


*********************
Thanks for the reply*.

I didn't know that....In the book it shows flashing with bell cover on....It also says that if it doesn't work to re-attempt the procedure.....BUT, If i reassemble to see if "fixed", the brush wires to replacement board will be connected and that will feed the 6vdc the manual calls for back to the board (maybe damage it?)....For sure it will be a pain that if the first attempt doesn't work, that i will have to remove the end bell cover UNLESS I can make the brush wires protrude from the case but and isolate the spade connectors.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*UPDATE-*

Received e-mail from the company whom indicated that they thought they had or could come up with a better idea or alternative....That fell flat on it's face as they alleged they "tried" it and it did not work.

So, I needed the board anyway so, I purchased that....May have to wait until I receive it to locate the correct plugs to utilize same....The directions I received are a bit strange they way they are laid out but, will look at them again when i get the replacement board http://www.partsfortechs.com/asapcart/pdf/0065649_Wiring_Harness_Instructions.png .


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Greetings all,

Would anyone know where I *can order the plug ends* as pictured in the attached pict? 

Would anyone know of the "correct name(s)" of the parts so that I can search the net more effectively? Thanks.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMuzXLcWrSfMr1OC7C0za10yL3ajfxxhVzE=

Looking for the other one...

Found something but I don't know your plug specs.

http://www.newark.com/amp-te-connectivity/3-640440-5/wire-board-connector-receptacle/dp/52K4339

This is the tool for the above
https://www.alliedelec.com/te-conne...vx0s7Mn_VXw5BCymH8MRCeW-cp7wkG10aAtGvEALw_wcB


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMuzXLcWrSfMr1OC7C0za10yL3ajfxxhVzE=
> 
> Looking for the other one...


**********************

Thanks for the reply!*

Think I may have found these (both types) but, waiting for return e-mails from sources. the difficult one may be the 5-pin that attaches to the board.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

generating pain said:


> **********************
> 
> Thanks for the reply!*
> 
> Think I may have found these (both types) but, waiting for return e-mails from sources. the difficult one may be the 5-pin that attaches to the board.


I think I have some of each. I'll look in my stash tomorrow.

Got any measurement specs? What gauge wire?


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> I think I have some of each. I'll look in my stash tomorrow.
> 
> Got any measurement specs? What gauge wire?


**************************
Thanks for the reply!*

Only specs I would be able to obtain is the wire size which i believe is #20. There is a surplus parts house near here that, when I receive board will take the board down and see if i can match up reg board connector(s) and other plug(s).


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Tried to edit the above post but, apparently there is a time limit as to when you can edit!

OK----Picked up wire which turned out to be 18 gauge so, that is that. Attempted to find connectors are previously mentioned and struck out there too....Will probably order from Mouser and hut down the other plug(s). Board still not delivered yet.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/350777-1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuzXLcWrSfMr1OC7C0za10yL3ajfxxhVzE%3d
> 
> Looking for the other one...
> 
> ...


*******************************
Thanks for the reply!*

I have no idea as to how I forgot this post!:001_huh:....I have 2 emails out to the seller of the board as to whom is the actual manufacturer. This way, I can know exactly what the board plug should be. 

The parts house I went to yesterday came close but, "no cigar". Tried to order plug suggested but, my browser was out of date. So, using a different computer and will order 3 (2 and 1 spare)


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*ANOTHER UPDATE -*

*Shocking* -

Went to take picts of wires and plugs attached to generator and found that one of then got quite hot! (see picts). Don't know if plug was resting on anything to cause this but, assume that it was high current draw. As in a previous post (with picts) found all wire windings were intact and "specked".

*Another note *- 

Looking at some of the links supplied for the 3 hole plugs - looks like these are different in that, the pics look different than what I have as mine have a "half-moon at one end. May have to go "all-in" and cut off all the plugs and replace same since these (orig replacements) are hard to find and have no real descriptions to do a diligent hunt.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Ok, gonna have to "bit the bullet" here and replace all the connectors.....

I did find some connectors on ebay (not sure ebay links are allowed here so, it is *item number 232453903717 *). They are rated at 5.0 amps 240v.

Ya think they will handle the application that I am going to put them to use for?


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> No unfortunately, same problem I have with photobucket, I think you need to pay now for it to work like that. Doesn't deter others from posting pics, I need to relearn...


***********************

Sorry for not following up on this! I am using this hosting site
( *https://imgbb.com/ *) to host my posted picts. Seeing that we both encountered the same issue with Photobucket, this should work well as it has so far for me.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank you for keeping us up to date.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Thank you for keeping us up to date.


**********************

Purchased replacement plug ends last night except the one that attaches to the board. 

Was blessed with a low-cut "stubby" capacitor on the board so, modifying the case will not be necessary.....Still have the issue of finding the 5-pin board plug.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*Just another update;*

Three position (contact) plugs came in yesterday and am awaiting a few Molex connectors I took a gamble on to fit. If they don't fit, I will reluctantly have to cut off the the 5 pin that is on the defective/old AVR and utilize that. Will keep posted.

*Another question;* looking at the previously posted picts of the slip rings where one is "inner" and the other is "outer", which would be (if it matters or not) positive *+* and which negative *-*?. 

The pict that is in the manual is rather "generic" and may be for demonstrative purposes only. However, looking at the rings (see next post) and the brush location, it shows the inner most brush polarity and being POSITIVE + and the outer most brush contacting the slip ring as being NEGATIVE - .

I believe that I will have to *flash this gen before attempting to use*. and I have a genuine fear of sending 6vdc back into the replacement AVR through the brushes into a board that is supposed to output voltage into the slip rings. If I have to remove the end bell cover to re-flash the generator as many times as it takes, I will probably do that instead of feeding back power to the board.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Attached picts -


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

generating pain said:


> ***********************
> 
> Sorry for not following up on this! I am using this hosting site
> ( *https://imgbb.com/ *) to host my posted picts. Seeing that we both encountered the same issue with Photobucket, this should work well as it has so far for me.


Photobucket can eat my dinglberries!

They sucked when they weren't a pay to play site.

I did find some stuff in my stash if you need it.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> Photobucket can eat my dinglberries!
> 
> They sucked when they weren't a pay to play site.
> 
> I did find some stuff in my stash if you need it.


*************************
Thanks for the reply!*

I don't think any you have displayed here will be suitable but, will *sincerely thank you* as this is the only forum that any member has offered me anything other than giving me the finger - lol.

Received from mailbox the 3-pin/hole connectors...$hit!, they look too small to handle whatever current flows to/through them!...If it is light current, it may work but...but...but...Serves me right to not wait for a response from ebay seller and to purchase anyway. The other 5-pin/hole Molex plug may come in today or tomorrow. 

Would you or anyone know or guess as to how much current/amperage goes throuh these plugs in this, my current application?....

Will cut off old/orig connectors and use "butt" connectors to extend wires so that it gives me some "play room to make adjustments in connector type, etc.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

These can handle 18 ga wire I believe if that is your concern.

Look inside some scrap computers for the others you're looking for.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> These can handle 18 ga wire I believe if that is your concern.
> 
> Look inside some scrap computers for the others you're looking for.


******************

Thanks for the reply!*

I just started looking again on ebay...A minor setback but, will take my time and not be so f'ing impatient this go-round. I did look at my scrap computer stash and didn't really find much....

My preference is to make these up from scratch with the stock wire colors and extending the wires with butt connectors as mentioned so that in case I have "difficulties" again, I have plenty of slack to apply another connector if need be....

Found some 3-hole locking male/female plugs (ebay) that accept 14-20AWG wire which should suffice as a #18 wire is good for 5 amps. Attempting to use what I have here is just foolish.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

generating pain said:


> ******************
> 
> Thanks for the reply!*
> 
> ...


************************

Edit -*

The previous picts above are the ones that have been ordered to replace the ones that would not work in the manner I needed them to. Also, the 5-pin din plugs I did order from ebay came in yesterday and they too won't work (pin spacing). Looks like I will have to scavenge the stock 5-pin din for use on the new board AND stay away from ebay for a while!


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*UPDATE *(again),

All parts are in and unwrapped. All guts in gen bell have been removed. Will begin cutting wires to utilize plug(s) in the morning.

***On the replacement updated AVR board there are 2 black wires coming from it with spade connectors. Each wire must connect to a brush.

That being in mind and with no markings for polarity on the board for polarity of the wires, *will there be a difference for the placement of either black wire from the board to the brushes? *

The manual for the flashing of the generator indicates the brushes apparently have a polarity but, that was for the original AVR and associated components..


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*........Anyone?*.......

I would hate to burn up the replacement AVR board.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*- Not even an educated guess??*

Would like to finish this endeavor this morning....Using crimp connectors and don't have any spares.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't think it matters which lands on which brush. DC rotating field so I don't think polarity will matter.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*Thank you for the reply!*

I thought I was abandoned here. I have to chance the order of the wires on the plugs at the stator(??). 

The drawing that is "going around" is missing some clarity in that, the five pin din (salvaged from previous original old gen wiring) can be labeled 1,2,3,4,5 from left to right but, depending on the mounting (pc side of board facing stator or component side of board facing stator) can be 180* out in the pin/wiring order 5,4,3,2,1.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*A reference video - *





Tomorrow or Thursday will be the day I either sink or swim with this rebuild project since I have been rained out 2 days in a row. 

I am questioning the exciter(?) (*2 yellow and 1 blue*) wires which terminate into a 3 pin molex plug and also questioning another 3-pin molex plug that is only using 2 pins of a plug with a *black wire at each end* with the center being vacant..... 

**Where I am confuse is that; on the 3 pin molex (2 yellows, 1 yellow on each end with blue in the middle as in the above vid and on some previously posted picts), does the *placement or polarity *make any difference* pertaining to the two yellows* (if they were reversed)? He indicates that there is AC on the 2 yellows which then should not make any difference in my situation, right?


***On the plug that contains only 2 black wires*, would that polarity make a difference either? I have no idea as to what they are for or go to.


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Haven't done anything further with generator resuscitation due to me injuring disc in my back. I was talking to another gent else-wheres' when *this thread went "quiet".*

I think I just need to know about the; **Polarity (if any, of the 2 black wires disappearing into the rotor/stator (in a previously posted picture post 102) area that come off of the replacement board**. The wiring diagram posted previously shows them as a "sensor wire(s)".

The two black "brush wires" with spade lugs that come OFF OF the new replacement board (post 109) are NOT annotated for plus (+) or minus (-) and therefore could go to either brush/slip-ring. **IF these black wires coming off the replacement board were reversed and IF the polarity mattered on the brush/slip-ring/brushes, would damage occur?. **


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Well, looks like this thread possibly died. 

Seemingly, nobody can answer the last question about the polarity of the wires to the brushes. This being that the wires from the replacement board are not marked for polarity but, that when flashing, manual indicates a polarity to which the flash voltage is to be applied to the rings (see previous pict). I will only flash this gen with the regulator board detached from the replacement board.

However, *I wish to thank all* that participated in what is a "no big deal" for you problem in this thread, (meaning that you deal with this all day long or, for a good portion of your life) involving my dilemma with resuscitating my generator, but, a large problem for me as a NOOB with gen-sets.

I have learned a lot and I appreciate the patience and information all have donated.


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

" Fleming's Right Hand Rule gives the direction of current and hence the polarity of the generated voltage. In order to change the polarity at the generator terminals, either the direction of rotation of the generator has to be reversed or the direction of magnetic field has to be reversed(this can be done by reversing the current in the separately excited field coil) but not both together."


----------



## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

FaultCurrent said:


> " Fleming's Right Hand Rule gives the direction of current and hence the polarity of the generated voltage. In order to change the polarity at the generator terminals, either the direction of rotation of the generator has to be reversed or the direction of magnetic field has to be reversed(this can be done by reversing the current in the separately excited field coil) but not both together."


***********************

Thanks for the reply!* 

You just brought back a memory that I had totally forgotten from the early 70's (but still forgotten):blink:. 

I read what you stated but, still not understand. Is it that I can apply the brush wires to EITHER of the slip rings with no adverse affects:001_huh:? I don't plan on changing the rotation of the motor


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*............Is it that I can apply the brush wires to EITHER of the slip rings with no adverse affects*:001_huh:?


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

In theory the polarity shouldn't matter but we have no insight as to how the electronics work. All you are doing is generating a magnetic field in the rotor. Still AC output. The exciter will change the strength of the DC field to regulate the output of the genset. 

My suggestion is to say to hell with it and try it. If it don't work reverse the connections. Trying to reverse engineer without solid info is tough.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

FaultCurrent said:


> In theory the polarity shouldn't matter but we have no insight as to how the electronics work. All you are doing is generating a magnetic field in the rotor. Still AC output. The exciter will change the strength of the DC field to regulate the output of the genset.
> 
> My suggestion is to say to hell with it and try it. If it don't work reverse the connections. Trying to reverse engineer without solid info is tough.


********************

Thanks for the reply!*

I understand what you are saying. I would just hate to see a $100 board go up in smoke. 

I believe I understand that DC is applied to the slip rings on the rotor (rotating mass) _so, that polarity should not matter._....I believe that the replacement board AVR is just going to adjust the voltage/current applied to the slip rings.

I had decided to throw in the towel and just hook up the remaining wires and give it a shot.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*UPDATE......*
_*
THIS DAMNED THING WORKS!*_

Made the wires in bell cover a little long so as if there was a need to remove the gen bell, a wire, or board later, I could do it without damaging any other wires or connections.

Used 2 "zip-ties" to hold wires/connectors to each side edge of gen bell so as not to come in contact with any moving/rotating parts. Packed bearing with high temperature grease.

Before re-assembly, I took a 6VDC lantern battery and briefly tapped it onto outer edge of slip-rings 2 or 3 times....and prayed. I did it with the brushes/board disconnected as I did not want to shoot voltage into replacement board.

Now, I have to see if I can cross-reference the oil filter with an automotive filter and, change the oil to synthetic.

I wish to ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, UNDOUBTEDLY thank all of you whom gave me advice, offered parts, offered links, and gave me the benefit of their working knowledge to get this gen back on it's feet again.

*But foremost, TO JESUS BE THE CREDIT AND GLORY. *


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

generating pain said:


> *UPDATE......*
> _*
> THIS DAMNED THING WORKS!*_


now that you don't need it


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> now that you don't need it


*********************

Thanks for the reply.*

Grin.......I unfortunately live in Florida - I"LL NEED IT!....ha!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That has a Briggs and Stratton motor so getting an oil filter should be no problem. I use 5w30 synthetic in almost all the generators I work on. Looks like it has a Briggs oil filter on it now.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

Started gen this morning and plugged in a device called a "Kill-a-watt" which is supposed to give freq, voltage, etc., and found *unit is outputting 148 volts!*...Damn glad I did not plug in a tool and only a light bulb!....Wonder why light I had plugged into it didn't blow....Have to remove end bell and board to facilitate avr adjustment....Wonder how many times I am going to have to remove end bell today?!


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> That has a Briggs and Stratton motor so getting an oil filter should be no problem. I use 5w30 synthetic in almost all the generators I work on. Looks like it has a Briggs oil filter on it now.


*
**********************
Thanks for the reply.*

I have cross-referenced the oil filter about an hour ago to a Fram but, I HATE FRAM. So, crossed it over to other brands and got a few numbers...Ok, out the door I go to see if I can adjust AVR.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I bet you can get those original Briggs on Amazon. Sometimes homedepot or lowes have them.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

*I think I am finished.....*

I had to drop the bell again and maneuver the connectors/connections to one side of the bell so that I am/was able to access the variable resistor on the replacement board through a side cooling slot/vent.

After first adjustment I had no output (think I went too far) and decided that I would be at it all day if the gen was not running.

My first idea was to make small incremental adjustments 'till I got it right. Then, _came to my senses_ remembered that I had some insulated TV alignment tools for just such a purpose. 

So, plugged in volt meter (as mentioned above), started gen, and slowly creeped it down to 121.1 VAC at 62 HZ.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

generating pain said:


> *I think I am finished.....*
> 
> I had to drop the bell again and maneuver the connectors/connections to one side of the bell so that I am/was able to access the variable resistor on the replacement board through a side cooling slot/vent.
> 
> ...


It would be a good idea to read the voltage, but with an incandescent bulb plugged in.
Most of those gens output a near square wave when unloaded .... that could mess up your voltage measurement.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

emtnut said:


> It would be a good idea to read the voltage, but with an incandescent bulb plugged in.
> Most of those gens output a near square wave when unloaded .... that could mess up your voltage measurement.


**********************

Thanks for the reply.*

I had a bulb plugged in and took measurements BOTH with and w/out bulb.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

And POOF! You're done!

Thank goodness I have a whole house genset from Generac I got a free gas powered Generac spray washer too. 

Ha ha! It just started for it's weekly test.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

LARMGUY said:


> And POOF! You're done!
> 
> Thank goodness I have a whole house genset from Generac I got a free gas powered Generac spray washer too.
> 
> Ha ha! It just started for it's weekly test.


*
*******************

Thanks for the reply.*

I thought about going that route but, figured if I was totally demolished that I could possibly transport my gen to a new destination and power up.


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

I had a thought..........If a gen looses it magnetic "charge", could a very strong magnet be placed onto the side of the stator(?) to induce magnetism to enable it to power-up"??


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Hey so I realize this is a somewhat old/dead thread, but its already helped me a great deal so I figured it would be a good place to start since it's abandoned.

I have the little brother to the generator in this thread, 5500w. Visually almost identical.

Here are some details:

Genny was overvoltage, so replaced stock AVR with same part number from this thread, since turning the potentiometer didn't have any effect.
Followed the same tutorial and made same harness to adapt. Verified harness connections are as they should be.
Rotor and stator measurements match those taken by the OP.
Upon replacement of AVR, generator was pushing only 55v.
Adjusted potentiometer on new AVR and completely lost power.
Tried flashing Rotor slip rings using 6v battery.
Tried flashing when on by reversing drill (and also tried in forward)
When completely disconnected AVR and given 12v to brushes, I get close to 60v ac. 
I would appreciate any extra troubleshooting steps you may be able to offer. Im leaning toward a defective/DOA AVR but would like to verify. Thank you!


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

So did some additional diagnostic on the AVR and it seems like it did arrive defective, or was destroyed upon startup.

This makes me wonder:

1)Is there any chance that a defective rotor or stator could have caused it?
2)if yes to the first question, is there some tests I could run to determine that, or did the tests described above fully determine the windings are good?


Hopefully someone out there is still watching this thread!


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Did some more testing. Seems the rest is fine. Using a multimeter was able to determine there is no short or open circuit in the stator or rotor windings. Compared all values against a known working unit. Swapped in the OEM AVR from that unit and it's also working fine. The replacement arrived DOA.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Moar_Power said:


> Did some more testing. Seems the rest is fine. Using a multimeter was able to determine there is no short or open circuit in the stator or rotor windings. Compared all values against a known working unit. Swapped in the OEM AVR from that unit and it's also working fine. The replacement arrived DOA.


While you are working out of my experiences, your troubleshooting skills are great. Let us know what happens when the new AVR comes in.


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Hey update incoming!

I removed the defective AVR in order to determine what part of the circuit has failed. I figured it was either a diode or the BU931T NPN transistor. As it turns out, I was right on both at least one count. 1x1N4007 (out of 6) failed. I have already replaced the diode. The NPN transistor is a darlington type and cannot be tested without a test circuit or specialized equipment. I dont want to invest that much time when the component isn't very expensive and can be simply replaced.

*Problem - *Only China seems to have them, and there is some sort of export embargo to Canada at the moment from China. Fastest lead time is at 16 weeks atm. 

*Anyone have ideas on how to get one? I have tried:*

Local suppliers
Google
Amazon
Ebay
Google results

It seems nobody in NA stocks them, including Amazon and eBay sellers. I found one in Japan, and another in Russia (both from amazon). Hoping someone here may have resources to get them sooner. Thanks everyone!


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

You can just make one. A Darlington pair is two BJT transistors. The emitter of one feeds the base of the other. The collectors are connected together. It’s a common lab in engineering school for teaching about transistors. No Chinese whatever needed.


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Thanks for your reply! It's a good idea. I've attached the datasheet for this component. According to the schematic, there are 2 diodes as well as 2 resistors in the package. Unfortunately the sheet doesn't detail the resistors values. Without creating the test circuit, are you aware of a way to measure the values of each resistor?

Thanks in advance!


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Ok so, ordered the bu391t from Amazon. It will probably show up some time in 2023 lol.

While waiting, I tested the circuit components in further detail:

KSP44 BJT NPN is shorted and allowing bidirectional current flow across all terminals.
Mpsa05 BJT NPN is shorted across C+E allowing bidirectional flow.
Replacements ordered

The goal of the above is to repair the old board to have a spare in the event of failure of another avr, without having to order replacements each time. 

*In the meantime, *I received a replacement AVR. It is also working, and the unit is working. Voltage output is a nominal 124 at idle, and maintains such with 1000w of electric load. 

I'll follow up on the avr repair once all components have arrived. Likely in 4 to 6 weeks.


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## Moar_Power (Jun 22, 2021)

Hey everyone. The bu931t arrived from China. I replaced it after having previously replaced the other 2 transistors, and one diode. 

*We have power*! 

I'm going to attach the schematic of the Coleman AVR 52627, which is also ICM part number AB3101-240. 

While waiting for these parts to arrive, I also managed to get another one of these units to replace/repair the AVR. This is going to be part number 0065649SRV, which is the Generac replacement part for the previous AVR (0052627, and also 0052795). This one has a varistor that overheated and opened. Going to continue the inspection on that one. I have also attached the schematic (rev3) for the new Generac 0065649SRV.

I hope this information can be helpful to someone.


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## kellya (9 mo ago)

Moar_Power said:


> Hey everyone. The bu931t arrived from China. I replaced it after having previously replaced the other 2 transistors, and one diode.
> 
> *We have power*!
> 
> ...


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## kellya (9 mo ago)

Very helpful. I have a vertex 7500 model, same original avr (5627). Problem is it needs to be reflached at the brushes after each use. the avr appears to work as my voltage stays pretty steady when gen is under differnt loads. i have replaced the capacitor but the unit still has to be reflashed at the endbell with 6 volts briefly to produce power. new brushes also. i have new diodes to install. could a leaky diode be causing my residual magnatize to bleed off? a few time i have rstated the unit after a minute or two and power come on. any thought from you guys?


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## generating pain (Sep 23, 2017)

kellya said:


> Very helpful. I have a vertex 7500 model, same original avr (5627). Problem is it needs to be reflached at the brushes after each use. the avr appears to work as my voltage stays pretty steady when gen is under differnt loads. i have replaced the capacitor but the unit still has to be reflashed at the endbell with 6 volts briefly to produce power. new brushes also. i have new diodes to install. could a leaky diode be causing my residual magnatize to bleed off? a few time i have rstated the unit after a minute or two and power come on. any thought from you guys?


*###########################
###########################
I have the (approx.) same generator...Remove the capacitor and check it that it is w/in it's range/rating...Replace it AGAIN as it could be breaking down under "load".*


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## kellya (9 mo ago)

generating pain said:


> *###########################
> ###########################
> I have the (approx.) same generator...Remove the capacitor and check it that it is w/in it's range/rating...Replace it AGAIN as it could be breaking down under "load".*





generating pain said:


> *###########################
> ###########################
> I have the (approx.) same generator...Remove the capacitor and check it that it is w/in it's range/rating...Replace it AGAIN as it could be breaking down under "load".*





generating pain said:


> *###########################
> ###########################
> I have the (approx.) same generator...Remove the capacitor and check it that it is w/in it's range/rating...Replace it AGAIN as it could be breaking down under "load".*





generating pain said:


> *###########################
> ###########################
> I have the (approx.) same generator...Remove the capacitor and check it that it is w/in it's range/rating...Replace it AGAIN as it could be breaking down under "load".*


the original cap (130uf) tested at 120uf. replaced with the replacement part which states "
0034819.01 Teapo Capacitor has the following ratings 220uF 200V.HD 85/C and fits various Coleman Powermate PM Series Generators.

The 0034819.01 Capacitor has been changed from the original 130uF to 220uF to help increased the life of the capacitor, the voltage and heat range of the capacitor have remained the same
This capacitor works the same in all aspects of the older version and with the 220uF it will increased the ability of the capacitor to remain charged.

The 0034819.01 Capacitor may need to be soldered into the endbell wire housing assembly on older units.

This 0034819.01 Capacitor is also used on some Pramac, Onan, Honda, and Yamaha generators as well as other privately labeled generators.

This same 0034819.01 Capacitor was also used by Kawasaki for their generators that were made by Pramac.

Size for this item is as follows:
The body of the capacitor is 2 inches long and the width is 1 inch across with standard 1/4 spade connectors.

The new cap is in the generator, and no improvement. also the idle control does not trigger the electromagnetic coil. Are these related? thanks for the reply.


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## kellya (9 mo ago)

anyone?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm not an expert by any stretch but if the generator loses magnetism when idle, it's got nothing to do with the AVR or any other electronics for that matter. Have you measured the field current when it's running to see if it is within spec? it might be over exciting the field enough to mask a problem with the laminations in the windings. That;s just a wild guess.


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