# Difficulty ordering combo starters



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I placed a order 2 weeks ago, for a 1 3/4 size Siemens combo starter with a fused disconnect. After I repeat the specs numerous times, the person says I'm not really good with this stuff, no kidding. Now I'm told it will be 3 more weeks now for delivery, because of reasons I suppose. Trying to get something that's not conduit or wire anymore is a exercise in futility. Repeating the specs over and over to the guy behind the counter makes me feel like a special-ed teacher, keep going over it and they will eventually get it.
I've got a mom and pop shop that's out of the way, that is a Cutler Hammer dealer that will get the order now, size 2 of course.
Is it just me, or is this a wider problem?
Rant off.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Combo-starters are WAY past the deep end for the Counter Crew.

That's a fact of life.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Does it have to be Siemens? Any combo off the shelf will work. And all aux should be available too.
You might need to change vendors. 2 weeks and you are in the US. Crazy.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Even worse we wait 3 weeks then the part turns up and its a different brand that they decided would work in the same position with out asking.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

460 Delta said:


> I placed a order 2 weeks ago, for a 1 3/4 size Siemens combo starter with a fused disconnect.



What the hell is 1 3/4 size????


I buy gear ALL THE TIME and have never heard of that.


I can't tell if you're looking for a size 2 pump panel with a fused disconnect or an MCC bucket??


What size motor? Voltage and phase?
Coil voltage?
HOA with start button?
Any extra aux contacts?


These are the usual basics you need to tell the counter person.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

John, off the shelf died about 15 years ago around here. The Siemens dealer is 10 minutes away from the plant so it seemed a winner, but deep down I’m a CH guy. 3 counties west to get a CH brand quick is a rotten deal. I’m open to AB but they want a ransom for their wares. 
I may hit the salvage pile and cobble yet another assembly together of odd brands once again. I just love using gear that has ALL the ko’s knocked out to the max size. Goof plugs and donuts by the handfuls.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Cow, 1 3/4 is a size that Furnas made and Siemens kept. I asked for a combination starter, that’s pretty easy to understand. I told them 120-240 coil and thermal overloads. 250 volt fused disconnect. 
Google Furnas fractional size starters, for a contractor it could be a edge on price bids on certain projects. 
They also have 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 sizes.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

When projects have been tight, I have been ordering surplus/used and new gear from Oregon Breakers Inc.

Didn't really know about them until a couple years ago unfortunately, wish I had known sooner. 

Everything I've gotten used from them, including used AB 509 starters, have showed up in mint condition since they recondition them with new parts if necessary before sending them out.

You may have someone in your neck of the woods that does similar. 

Good way to get NEMA starter for a lot less. I'd rather buy used NEMA than new IEC personally!


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

As close to the rust belt that I am, you would think surplus used/recon would be in abundance, however I have yet to find a dealer close. It could be as soon as a place closes the druggies strip it clean for another fix.
The Siemens stuff seems fine and it's beginning to grow on me, but the wait time is getting silly and I don't have a month to wait on materials.
I suspect that it is getting put in with stock orders to qualify for free shipping or some discount. 
Purchasers are going to be the death of American retail, they only know what a computer screen tells them, no first hand knowledge. I tried to pick up a roll of 11/4" carflex a few months ago and had to special order it because it doesn't sell?? The counter guys told me they have been arguing with the purchaser for months to get some, but her response was we haven't sold any in months.... The one guy I usually deal with who is calm, was so mad telling me this I could have lit a cigar off his head.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

As for help with things at the counter - there has never in my 25 years as a customer been a time that I could rely on the counter people to have even a basic understanding of a relay. They know that "aw he wouldn't know how to wire a three way" is a joke and even say it about people, but they would be terrified if someone ever asked them to explain how they'd wire a three-way. The places that have inside sales, they will know a little more about a few products in their area of specialty, but not too much. 

I am OK with that, I'll go to the manufacturer and figure it out. Back maybe 20 years ago there were a lot of companies with good tech support including pre-sales support, and a lot with awful tech support, and I stuck with brands with good support. Now most companies give you a CSR that's just trying to find your answer on their web site and read it out loud to you, barely understand the product. That's OK, if the info is on the web site, I will read it myself. 

What's disappointing is that web site resources have actually gotten worse over the years. As Eaton, Legrande, and Schneider eat up the smaller fish, they roll their info into their horrible web sites with the finesse of a junkyard scrap crusher, and you'll never find it again. 

The local supply houses have been chasing this dream of less inventory, we only stock it if it sells, if we don't have it we'll order it. So dumb. 

As your store shrinks, you'll soon be an electrical convenience store, except that Home Depot is right down the street with an equally limited selection, similar prices, and better hours than yours, except they have a web site with accurate inventory and pricing. So good luck with that. 

You can order it for me - really? No **** sherlock, thanks a lot. From you it will take longer, but it will cost more! I can order it myself any number of places. The idea of a *store*, the reason they call it a *store*, is you buy it, and *store* it until I need it, then you get to charge me more. If you don't have it, you don't get to charge me more, just for the honor of doing business with you. I'll buy it from someone that has it. 

(It's good to get in the first rant of the day early.)


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

^^^ preach it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Thread winner.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

460. How do you order parts and equipment? From the catalog or do you have a contact?
Do you have a guy that comes around regularly and makes sure his company (distributor) is taking care of you and you are satisfied?

I like having one guy outside and one guy inside that knows me, knows my company and can be reached in a moments notice. Night or day.
I also like to have more than one distributor using the same logic.

Also I never used supply houses for things like this. They are over priced and have little idea as to what you want or need as articulated above.
I like to use a motor shop/PT house that is a distributor for several name brand control products.
Motor shops houses are not created the same though. Some just repair and replace motors. But a good shop has a good new sales dept and they know what you are talking about, can tell you over the phone if they have it in stock or how long it will take for delivery. They will ask questions to remind you about coil voltages, motor size and current. These are the people you need. 

If your buying conduit and panels, use the supply house. If you need motor controls products and or related products, go to the people that make their living from these particular things.
Also you are a smart guy. So don't always expect to get the exact same thing when replacing stuff.
A size 2 might have been just fine and I know they stock these in the US someplace. 
Next day delivery in this case.

I would look at what you need and search for a local distributor for that product. Call them and have someone come out and see what you do and what you have.
You will get a free lunch as well in most every case.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I’ve been waiting 3 weeks for a size 1 square D combination starter. Was told it would be 3 more weeks wait. WTF

Now I have to order 2 more and dread doing it.

Or old salesmen just retiered after 40’years. The new crew is clueless 
But I can’t find a local who stocks anything.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

....


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

John, the one house I use [not the Siemens place] is a PT and motor sales and pipe and wire place. Bad news is they are the AB distributor. Their service is indifferent at best.
I had a order I placed a while back and saw the outside rep at the counter while I dealt with my prefered guy.I asked what it took to get a sales call from a rep, he NEVER looked up or acknowledged I was there. I asked my guy what that was all about and he said do you know how much you spent so far? No I said, $13,000 was all, he said the rep was looking it up. So I ask what does that mean, I'm not good enough to warrant a sales call? Yes he says, you don't spend enough for him be bothered with a sales call.
I mention this to my guy at another branch of the same co. and that guy hit the roof, I believe words were spoken because things changed for the better for me, still no salesman though, he's too busy for an account like me.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

460. This is why salespeople get a bad name. I had worked in this trade for many years before I took a job with a distributor.
They hired me because they wanted someone who could relate to the customer and his needs. Someone who could help as much as sell. I cannot count all the times the customer got free labor from me. I wanted to help them. I wanted the business.

You need to find someone else. Any place that still uses the logic your distributor is using does not deserve your business.
There are people that will take your acct serious and by their actions prove this to you.

I worked in a very competitive market. It was not unusual to run into competing salesmen at current customers of mine.
You had to be "Johnny on the spot" and you better know more about the customers equipment than they did. If you didn't you would loose that customer.
Send me a PM with your geographic details. I may know someone to help you.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

BTW, a fractional NEMA designation is often mere code for a product that is specific for OEM distribution.

It's not intended to travel through regular distributors.

Due to the cost and production pressures of mass production, such units are typically composed of ordinary NEMA components in a CUSTOM chassis -- say a squeeze fit.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

telsa said:


> BTW, a fractional NEMA designation is often mere code for a product that is specific for OEM distribution.
> 
> It's not intended to travel through regular distributors.
> 
> Due to the cost and production pressures of mass production, such units are typically composed of ordinary NEMA components in a CUSTOM chassis -- say a squeeze fit.


A 1 3/4 is a regular item listed in a Siemens catalog, it's just not that common, a 2 probably is sold more regularly. If you get into Siemens catalog you can build your own combo starter with the option numbers easily. The split sizes are for everyday use, not OEM stuff. I'm pretty sure the sales force just doesn't know about their products [laziness] and use it as a potential price point tool.
Good knowledgeable sales reps are dying out, they are replaced by internet searching drones who only know what moves easily.


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