# Company rate sheet



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

So I sent out a flyer to the local contractors in the area and I get a response from a local custom builder and they want me to fill out a 35 page "subcontractor qualifications form" and they want me to attach a company rate sheet? not sure what to put here....any sugestions?? also they want me to have auto insurance with a million dollar liability limit is this standard?


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

James Eccles said:


> So I sent out a flyer to the local contractors in the area and I get a response from a local custom builder and they want me to fill out a 35 page "subcontractor qualifications form" and they want me to attach a company rate sheet? not sure what to put here....any sugestions?? also they want me to have auto insurance with a million dollar liability limit is this standard?


 
Would you wire new homes WITHOUT at least a million in insurance? He shouldn't even have to make you buy that. You should already have it.


----------



## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Well your prices are yours... I won't fill out anything (myself).

I think they mess-up on the insurance, maybe that construction related liability...

I don't know for sure, I don't run a business, so it's all my personal opinion.


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Would you wire new homes WITHOUT at least a million in insurance? He shouldn't even have to make you buy that. You should already have it.


they want a million dollars on my auto insurance...I already have that in general liability


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

James Eccles said:


> So I sent out a flyer to the local contractors in the area and I get a response from a local custom builder and they want me to fill out a 35 page "subcontractor qualifications form" and they want me to attach a company rate sheet? not sure what to put here....any sugestions?? also they want me to have auto insurance with a million dollar liability limit is this standard?


Company rate sheet?:blink:

And what stops them from passing that around all of your competitors ?:blink:

Tel them that each job will get a grand total price and that is all they need to know.



> auto insurance with a million dollar liability limit is this standard


The insurance on your trucks is not their business ,The only thing they need to know is that you have insurance on them.


Liability insurance for your business should cover their buildings so you only have to show proof of it for the dollar amount that they want.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

How does someone not have a rate sheet?


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

Zog said:


> How does someone not have a rate sheet?


 
ok so what is your rate sheet?


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

James Eccles said:


> ok so what is your rate sheet?


 We give rate sheets to our customers. It gives them T&M rates for apprentices, journeymen, foreman, and general foreman. Ours includes all of the crafts from plumbers, masons, carpenters, millwright, laborers, electricians, etc.


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> We give rate sheets to our customers. It gives them T&M rates for apprentices, journeymen, foreman, and general foreman. Ours includes all of the crafts from plumbers, masons, carpenters, millwright, laborers, electricians, etc.


 
so when you bid work you dont bid one hourly rate for the project? you figure diffrent rates for journeyman, foreman,apprentice. ect?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

James Eccles said:


> so when you bid work you dont bid one hourly rate for the project? you figure diffrent rates for journeyman, foreman,apprentice. ect?


 James are you a one man show EC?


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

James is brand spankin new out of the box. He needs some pointers.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

James Eccles;[URL="tel:710597" said:


> 710597[/URL]]so when you bid work you dont bid one hourly rate for the project? you figure diffrent rates for journeyman, foreman,apprentice. ect?


If I know I'm going to have a JW and an apprentice on a job, I will take the average of the 2 rates


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

dronai said:


> James is brand spankin new out of the box. He needs some pointers.



Yes....


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

James Eccles said:


> So I sent out a flyer to the local contractors in the area and I get a response from a local custom builder and they want me to fill out a 35 page "subcontractor qualifications form" and they want me to attach a company rate sheet? not sure what to put here....any sugestions?? also they want me to have auto insurance with a million dollar liability limit is this standard?



Not so uncommon. For commercial work.
most property management companies will require 2 million in liability, With 'completed project' coverage (if you don't have completed project coverage your a fool).
1 million min- for vehicle coverage. Tenants are stupid and blind.
Workers comp- regardless if your a 1 man show or not.

Commercial work- you can be in the 8 -12K annual price range for insurance alone.

residential. most are just looking for the low ball number. (not counting large custom homes).


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

James read some of these threads...

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/precision-pricing-flate-rate-software-thoughts-29384/

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/flat-rate-pricing-residential-3240/

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/flat-rate-pricing-vs-hourly-rate-pricing-23536/

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/precision-flat-rate-software-33603/


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> James read some of these threads...
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/precision-pricing-flate-rate-software-thoughts-29384/
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd be concerned about giving out pricing on every electrical item. It sounds like they're simply price shopping.


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes....


yep brand spanking new need lots of help

the estimating software I use has 170/hour for 1 hour work with no material for bidding new construction 

but it also says 258$ min charge for residential so I figure that would be for service work 

but there is no distinction for froman vrs apprentice or anything like that just a rate per 100 linear feet of wire, per box , per panel, per termination ect. 

not sure what exactly they are looking for in a company rate sheet


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> James are you a one man show EC?


yes one man show


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

James Eccles said:


> yep brand spanking new need lots of help
> 
> the estimating software I use has 170/hour for 1 hour work with no material for bidding new construction
> 
> ...


 
Two different things here, Bid work, which is all of your cost, and a percentage on top, for labor, materials, direct job costs (permits etc) and profit. This will work for your larger jobs. Or you can unit price with all of the above built in.

Flat rate pricing is for small jobs, but you will never be competitive with the prices you mentioned for larger jobs.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

James Eccles said:


> yep brand spanking new need lots of help
> 
> the estimating software I use has 170/hour for 1 hour work with no material for bidding new construction
> 
> ...


They just want to see your rates so they can tell you the next guy is charging $50 per hour//No thanks to that.

When I became an Electrical Contractor it was because I do Not need or even want to think about filling out a 37 page app just to wire houses for a company that will restrict my income to the bone.

The key is you need to find work that allows you to give a grand total price without all the control freak BS that comes along with working for a GC.


read those flat rate threads you will learn the best way to price out work.

Take that 37 page application and tell them to G* ****88*** selves.:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> I'd be concerned about giving out pricing on every electrical item. It sounds like they're simply price shopping.


Exactly and lining him up for bankruptcy..


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Harry's correct. Don't do it!!!!


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd do it. What's the worst that happens? They don't use you because you're "too expensive"?

I give one of my contractors, that also uses other guys, a spread sheet with common items and their average cost. They use the numbers for their estimating program. It works pretty well. I can go to a job that I haven't bid and price it up on the spot and I know they won't be shocked at the cost and I won't have to worry that they will beat me up over the price.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I'd do it. What's the worst that happens?


They could pass your price list on to your competitors so they can beat you every time.

Giving them your rate sheet just makes their job of price shopping easier.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> They could pass your price list on to your competitors so they can beat you every time.
> 
> Giving them your rate sheet just makes their job of price shopping easier.


A rate sheet is your published rate, no one says you have to use that rate to bid jobs. Think of a rate sheet as full retail price.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> They could pass your price list on to your competitors so they can beat you every time.
> 
> Giving them your rate sheet just makes their job of price shopping easier.


We have several different rate sheets for several different customers. It is normal for a customer to ask for a rate sheet. You cannot get a MSA without one. The only difference I can see here is that I am strictly doing Industrial working for major oil companies, if you told them that you would not give them a rate sheet, they would send you down the road and the next guy would walk in. 

Rate sheets are used in larger companies to perform audits in the invoices you send them, typically they have several contractors working for them and they randomally select invoices from time to time and audit them against your rate sheets.

We have a rate for each classifiaction of employee. It goes something like this.

Supervisor $$$
Foreman $$$
Lead Hand $$$
E-5----AKA JM $$$
E-4 $$$
E-3 $$$
E-2 $$$
E-1 $$$


----------



## Grabsumbuds (Apr 25, 2012)

It sounds more like he is looking for your time and material rates not your bid rate yes this is very common I will not send a tech to site until I have a signed time and material rate returned it stands up in court, As for bid rate we have some larger customers that we work with where we give them our rates end of the job we compare our hours vs the rate and they give us 20% above our cost for our overhead and profit


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sstlouis03 said:


> We have several different rate sheets for several different customers. It is normal for a customer to ask for a rate sheet. You cannot get a MSA without one. The only difference I can see here is that I am strictly doing Industrial working for major oil companies, if you told them that you would not give them a rate sheet, they would send you down the road and the next guy would walk in.
> 
> Rate sheets are used in larger companies to perform audits in the invoices you send them, typically they have several contractors working for them and they randomally select invoices from time to time and audit them against your rate sheets.


That is a totally different part of the business and I do not do Industrial because of the control factor that a price sheet creates.

It seems to me that type of business practice promotes a race to the bottom price wise. Just my opinion.

The OP is a one man band doing residential.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That is a totally different part of the business and I do not do Industrial because of the control factor that a price sheet creates.
> 
> It seems to me that type of business practice promotes a race to the bottom price wise. Just my opinion.
> 
> The OP is a one man band doing residential.


Your exactly right Harry, it does seem to promote bottom feeders, thats why it is so important to have a good saftey record with these companies and always provide the best service as possible, typically all it takes is one screw up and they go to the next guy. I have had to cut rates by less then 5% in some cases just to get a customer, its that cut throat.

But, even my old resi./comm. company i worked for had a very simple rate sheet in order with a confidential statement at the bottom.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Zog said:


> A rate sheet is your published rate, no one says you have to use that rate to bid jobs. Think of a rate sheet as full retail price.


Exactly.

If we bid a job at $75 an hour and add 15% OH and 5% P ($90.56), and they ask for hourly rates....and keep in mind oh & p is limited to 5% mark-up on change orders. My rate would be something like $125 an hour 5% OH and 5% P ($137.81) Which is better?.........

Bid, Change Order and Service rates are all different.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If we bid a job at $75 an hour and add 15% OH and 5% P ($90.56), and they ask for hourly rates....and keep in mind oh & p is limited to 5% mark-up on change orders. My rate would be something like $125 an hour 5% OH and 5% P ($137.81) Which is better?.........
> 
> Bid, Change Order and Service rates are all different.


You are shorting yourself by multiplying instead of dividing your mark-up.

The way I do my mark-up will provide you extra money and is a true form of mark-up.

100 x 1.15 = 115.00

100 / .85 = 117.64

Over the course of a year based off of 2080 hours thats 5,491.20 just by dividing.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

sstlouis03 said:


> You are shorting yourself by multiplying instead of dividing your mark-up.
> 
> The way I do my mark-up will provide you extra money and is a true form of mark-up.
> 
> ...


Not really......if the contract allows _margin_ for change orders, I see you point, otherwise it is just a picking of terms... I am not shorting myself anything. It is just how I pick to do the math and come up with a sales price.

My math tells me I need a 15% mark-up for overhead. If I did the math for margin, it would be a margin of like 13-14% or something along those lines....


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If we bid a job at $75 an hour and add 15% OH and 5% P ($90.56), and they ask for hourly rates....and keep in mind oh & p is limited to 5% mark-up on change orders. My rate would be something like $125 an hour 5% OH and 5% P ($137.81) Which is better?.........
> 
> Bid, Change Order and Service rates are all different.


 
so I am wondering what they are looking for my rate I use for estimating? for service? for T&M


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

James Eccles said:


> so I am wondering what they are looking for my rate I use for estimating? for service? for T&M


I would give them your change order rate. I would never tell anyone what you estimate / bid at.

You should have three rates (IMO)

Examples (with OH P)

Bid $50
Change Order $80
Service $195

Of course, you have to build those rates based on your costs and goals....


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

someplaces we work require higher auto ins also like that.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Not really......if the contract allows _margin_ for change orders, I see you point, otherwise it is just a picking of terms... I am not shorting myself anything. It is just how I pick to do the math and come up with a sales price.
> 
> My math tells me I need a 15% mark-up for overhead. If I did the math for margin, it would be a margin of like 13-14% or something along those lines....


I was just showing you how the way you calculate your mark-up could earn you a few extra dollars, dividing by .85 is a truer 15% mark up then multipling by 1.15. Had a guy show this to me a couple years ago and ended up changing the way I marked everything up to get every penny. Especially if your locked into a 15% material mark-up with a customer you can use the division method and make quite a bit more money, straight into your pocket.

Say you had $ 5000.00 worth of material on a job, you would only make $ 750 off your mark up, I would make $ 882.35 using the same 15% just different math. Could make a substantial difference in the long run.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

that's because dividing by .85 doesn't give you a 15% markup, it gives you a 17.6% markup. yeah, that's different math alright, 2.6% different; otherwise known as "not the same thing".


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

....


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

wildleg said:


> that's because dividing by .85 doesn't give you a 15% markup, it gives you a 17.6% markup. yeah, that's different math alright, 2.6% different; otherwise known as "not the same thing".


 
You sir are missing the point, 15% of 100 is 15, 100-15=85. I was simply showing you all an alternate method of calculating price mark-up. Im sorry to have confused you with simple math. Accountants use the division method, it is a simple way to increase you profit margin through nothing more then math. Feel free to keep using your method, didnt say it was wrong.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

sstlouis03 said:


> You sir are missing the point, 15% of 100 is 15, 100-15=85. I was simply showing you all an alternate method of calculating price mark-up. Im sorry to have confused you with simple math. Accountants use the division method, it is a simple way to increase you profit margin through nothing more then math. Feel free to keep using your method, didnt say it was wrong.


You are missing the point. 15% markup is 15% of the item added to it. that is 1.15 times the item.

Dividing the item by .85, on the other hand, is not 15% markup. it is 17.6% markup; the same thing as multiplying the item by 1.176; the same thing as adding the item plus 17.6% of the item. 

In other words, dividing by .85 has nothing to do with a 15% markup.

did I explain that ok ?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Company rate sheet?:blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are on their property the can have company policies that they want thou to comply with.


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

brian john said:


> If you are on their property the can have company policies that they want thou to comply with.


so I am going threw their packet and they say this 

Please note no payments can be released until your Subcontractor Application Form,W9, and Insurance Certificates are received by our appropriate departments. The Lien releases are not turned in until payment is expected.

WTF does that mean " The Lien releases are not turned in until payment is expected."

when I am expecting payment they will start looking over my paperwork ****ing BS​


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

sstlouis03 said:


> I was just showing you how the way you calculate your mark-up could earn you a few extra dollars, dividing by .85 is a truer 15% mark up then multipling by 1.15. Had a guy show this to me a couple years ago and ended up changing the way I marked everything up to get every penny. Especially if your locked into a 15% material mark-up with a customer you can use the division method and make quite a bit more money, straight into your pocket.
> 
> Say you had $ 5000.00 worth of material on a job, you would only make $ 750 off your mark up, I would make $ 882.35 using the same 15% just different math. Could make a substantial difference in the long run.



No, at bid time, I am not locked into anything with a customer. If it is a change order, It is stipulated in the contract how items will be marked up.



wildleg said:


> that's because dividing by .85 doesn't give you a 15% markup, it gives you a 17.6% markup. yeah, that's different math alright, 2.6% different; otherwise known as "not the same thing".


:thumbsup:



sstlouis03 said:


> You sir are missing the point, 15% of 100 is 15, 100-15=85. I was simply showing you all an alternate method of calculating price mark-up. Im sorry to have confused you with simple math. Accountants use the division method, it is a simple way to increase you profit margin through nothing more then math. Feel free to keep using your method, didnt say it was wrong.


You have not confused me. I know excatly what you are saying. Even if you do not know what the correct "terms" are. You are talking about *margin*. I am talking about *mark-up*. Two different WAYS to accomplish a result. I am not leaving anything on the table. My number was calculated to use mark-up, not margin.



wildleg said:


> You are missing the point. 15% markup is 15% of the item added to it. that is 1.15 times the item.
> 
> Dividing the item by .85, on the other hand, is not 15% markup. it is 17.6% markup; the same thing as multiplying the item by 1.176; the same thing as adding the item plus 17.6% of the item.
> 
> ...


Yes.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

James Eccles said:


> so I am going threw their packet and they say this
> 
> Please note no payments can be released until your Subcontractor Application Form,W9, and Insurance Certificates are received by our appropriate departments. The Lien releases are not turned in until payment is expected.
> 
> ...


You will have to give them a lien release for the amount you invoice. We will issue a lien release when we get/pick up a check.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> No, at bid time, I am not locked into anything with a customer. If it is a change order, It is stipulated in the contract how items will be marked up.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


My apologies on the terminology, good thing I'm an electrician. In any matter we use the .85 to do our mark-ups on labor and material. If that is a margin calculation so be it, if it's a 17% mark-up that's fine to, as log as customers are happy and I'm making money.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

sstlouis03 said:


> My apologies on the terminology, good thing I'm an electrician. In any matter we use the .85 to do our mark-ups on labor and material. If that is a margin calculation so be it, if it's a 17% mark-up that's fine to, as log as customers are happy and I'm making money.



Why is an electrician worried about markup or margin?

Do you bid too?


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Why is an electrician worried about markup or margin?
> 
> Do you bid too?


Yes sir, I am no longer a field electrician I am the area manager. Profits, margins and mark-ups are a major portion of my job.

Aren't you an electrician yourself?


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

sstlouis03 said:


> Yes sir, I am no longer a field electrician I am the area manager. Profits, margins and mark-ups are a major portion of my job.
> 
> Aren't you am electrician yourself?


Yes and No..... :laughing: 

Or both.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> Yes and No..... :laughing:
> 
> Or both.


Typically our estimators do all of the bids but when they are backed up I do pick up the slack.


----------



## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

The first rate sheet I ever turned in was 10 years ago. It has generated approximately 10 million in sales for me from that customer. I'd take a chance and turn it in.


----------



## James Eccles (Nov 21, 2011)

dawgs said:


> The first rate sheet I ever turned in was 10 years ago. It has generated approximately 10 million in sales for me from that customer. I'd take a chance and turn it in.


so what kind of format should I submit this in??


----------



## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

James Eccles said:


> So I sent out a flyer to the local contractors in the area and I get a response from a local custom builder and they want me to *fill out a 35 page "subcontractor qualifications form"* and they want me to attach a company rate sheet?


GCs
More demanding.
Less money.


----------



## sstlouis03 (Jun 23, 2011)

Show your hourly charge for yourself, and your helper, then show a charge for overtime separate.


----------

