# Residential ground



## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

I just did an inspection on a new service on an existing house. There were a couple minor issues. Part of my inspection is to check the connection of the GEC to the ground rod. I noticed that the top of the ground rod hadn't been touched. I reached down with one hand and pulled an 8'x 1/2" copper-clad ground rod completely out of the ground. The service didn't pass, obviously. I left the EC a note on the tag referencing 250-53G. Our soil around here is gumbo and clay so makes a good ground if the rod is "driven" properly. Some of these guys try to cheat and use water to push the ground rod into the ground... much easier to do. It's also the lazy way and not by code.

Mark


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Never have installed a rod by using water or seen it done but wouldn't it still be in contact with the earth? Just wondering...

Pete


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> Never have installed a rod by using water or seen it done but wouldn't it still be in contact with the earth? Just wondering...
> 
> Pete


I thought a floating ground rod was okay according to article 250.252..:blink::laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I use part of my soda all the time. It's amazing how little it takes.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1: 

much ado about nothing.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> Never have installed a rod by using water or seen it done but wouldn't it still be in contact with the earth? Just wondering...
> 
> Pete


It's supposed to be in contact on it's whole surface... 25 ohms or less? Around here, a properly driven rod won't pull out with less than a backhoe. The fact that I could pull it out by hand means it wasn't installed properly.

Mark


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

wesleydnunder said:


> It's supposed to be in contact on it's whole surface... 25 ohms or less? Around here, a properly driven rod won't pull out with less than a backhoe. The fact that I could pull it out by hand means it wasn't installed properly.
> 
> Mark


Not arguing that the code requires the rod to be "driven" and yes I've never pulled a driven 8 foot rod outta the ground either. 

Just wondering... wouldn't the earth that was displaced by the water method eventually envelop the rod again making it "in contact"?

Pete


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> Not arguing that the code requires the rod to be "driven" and yes I've never pulled a driven 8 foot rod outta the ground either.
> 
> Just wondering... wouldn't the earth that was displaced by the water method eventually envelop the rod again making it "in contact"?
> 
> Pete


Possibly. But "eventually" doesn't provide what the code prescribes. If the service needs a good ground to be energized, should we wait, and turn it on eventually?

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Ive had plenty of places here, especially by the lake, where I could push the entire rod down by hand . if I had an inspector come back and pull my rod out, him and I would have problems. This is nothing more than a big headed inspector. The ground rod is absolutely useless anyway


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ive had plenty of places here, especially by the lake, where I could push the entire rod down by hand . if I had an inspector come back and pull my rod out, him and I would have problems. This is nothing more than a big headed inspector. The ground rod is absolutely useless anyway


I was gonna say the same thing, more than half the houses in my area do not even have ground rods


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

electricalwiz said:


> I was gonna say the same thing, more than half the houses in my area do not even have ground rods


I third the motion.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'll hammer the damn thing on a 30degree angle and then I stick my bender on it and level it up. Pull that one out.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

You should go to NH or VT some time and see how many 8 foot ground rods are driven the first 3-4 feet with a hammer, and the rest of the way with a hacksaw.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ive had plenty of places here, especially by the lake, where I could push the entire rod down by hand . if I had an inspector come back and pull my rod out, him and I would have problems. This is nothing more than a big headed inspector. The ground rod is absolutely useless anyway


That's one opinion. Around here the soil is clay. About 90 miles from here near the Brazos River it's all sand and a rod can literally be pushed in by hand. The code makes provisions for this. 

Around here, if you and I had problems because I could pull your ground rod out of 8" of clay by hand, you'd either install it correctly or we'd call Guiness.

...and my head is quite average sized thank you very much.

Mark


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I moved to the Mississippi delta - all former swamp land - from Reno, Nv. For those who don't know it, Reno sits halfway up the mountain that supports Lake Tahoe. Solid rock. 

So, imagine my surprise when I had to drive two rods here. By my standards, the rods fairly lept from my hands and threw themselves into the ground. 

Despite the ease of driving the rod, many folks just had to share their 'secret trick' of using a bit of water to drive the rod. The way it is done is that you first bang the rod in a few inches, remove the rod, fill the hole with water, then re-insert the rod. Working the rod back and forth like a piston, the trapped water makes the hole for the rod.

While the NEC specifically says 'don't do it,' that prohibition is pretty recent. The code panel was persuaded that, in dryer areas, the soil would dry out and 'shrink' away from the rod.

I've wondered what an inspector would have to say about my rods. They're pretty much intact; the pile driver didn't have to hit them very many times. 

Now, HERE's another rod of mine:










In this instance, that's a 10-ft rod, and, apart from the exposed few inches (pic was taken before final trench fill), it's all in the ground. Here, though, I took advantage of the alternative method of laying the rod in a 30" deep trench due to the rockiness of the area. I also encased the rod in a couple inches of concrete for good measure. I used a 10-ft. rod to eliminate any debate about the vertical portion, having use my bender on it.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> I'll *hammer* the damn thing on a 30degree angle and then I stick my bender on it and level it up. Pull that one out.


I wouldn't be able to, since it was installed correctly.

Mark


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

wesleydnunder said:


> I wouldn't be able to, since it was installed correctly.
> 
> Mark


In this day and age it's shocking that some ECs don't use modern technology. I have an attachment for my demo drill that just slides them right in less than 2 minutes.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I moved to the Mississippi delta - all former swamp land - from Reno, Nv. For those who don't know it, Reno sits halfway up the mountain that supports Lake Tahoe. Solid rock.
> 
> So, imagine my surprise when I had to drive two rods here. By my standards, the rods fairly lept from my hands and threw themselves into the ground.
> 
> ...


Up in the hill country where the limestone caprock is just a few inches to a couple feet below the surface, ground rods are customarily installed in horizontal trenches. 

In the sandy areas where the ground rods push into the ground easily, multiple rods are used.

The ground does shrink away from the rod when it's installed with the water method.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> In this day and age it's shocking that some ECs don't use modern technology. I have an attachment for my demo drill that just slides them right in less than 2 minutes.


I typically used my TE-77 and a ground rod bit when I was in the field. Works like butter.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> You should go to NH or VT some time and see how many 8 foot ground rods are driven the first 3-4 feet with a hammer, and the rest of the way with a hacksaw.


I'd rather not. It would probably dispell my illusion that some of my fellow tradesmen weren't lazy, lying, cheating scumbags.

Mark


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Amish Electrician said:


> I moved to the Mississippi delta - all former swamp land - from Reno, Nv. For those who don't know it, Reno sits halfway up the mountain that supports Lake Tahoe. Solid rock.
> 
> So, imagine my surprise when I had to drive two rods here. By my standards, the rods fairly lept from my hands and threw themselves into the ground.
> 
> ...


That's a NYC ground rod, with RMC of course.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> I just did an inspection on a new service on an existing house. There were a couple minor issues. Part of my inspection is to check the connection of the GEC to the ground rod. I noticed that the top of the ground rod hadn't been touched. I reached down with one hand and pulled an 8'x 1/2" copper-clad ground rod completely out of the ground. The service didn't pass, obviously. I left the EC a note on the tag referencing 250-53G. Our soil around here is gumbo and clay so makes a good ground if the rod is "driven" properly. Some of these guys try to cheat and use water to push the ground rod into the ground... much easier to do. It's also the lazy way and not by code.
> 
> Mark


 
Can you show me in the code where it says that was incorrectly installed?

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY DRIVEN WITH A HAMMER.

Did he have a single rod or two?

I have pushed rods in 4-5 feet and was able to tap them in the rest of the way.

How do you know it does not meet 25 ohms.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

How the hell do you know if they used the water method. 

I've spent 4 hours beating a ground rod in, and the second one went in using hand pressure only. Sometimes you get lucky. Both were driven, both were 8' in the ground, and if some inspector PULLED my rod out then failed me I would be contacting the state.

Thats like removing the ground from a recept and failing him for miswiring the damn thing. 

I wish that guy got to inspect the next job you did...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jarhead0531 said:


> How the hell do you know if they used the water method.
> 
> I've spent 4 hours beating a ground rod in, and the second one went in using hand pressure only. Sometimes you get lucky. Both were driven, both were 8' in the ground, and if some inspector PULLED my rod out then failed me I would be contacting the state.
> 
> ...


 I got into a big discussion with a inspector 1 time that pulled my gec out of the ground he couldn't find my rods so he walked to the foundation , grabbed my gec and ripped it all out of the ground in order to find rods . I was pissed


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> That's one opinion. Around here the soil is clay. About 90 miles from here near the Brazos River it's all sand and a rod can literally be pushed in by hand. The code makes provisions for this.
> 
> Around here, if you and I had problems because I could pull your ground rod out of 8" of clay by hand, you'd either install it correctly or we'd call Guiness.
> 
> ...


 You are using assumptions to make code based decisions. you cannot prove that he broke any codes


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

brian john said:


> Can you show me in the code where it says that was incorrectly installed?
> 
> NO WHERE DOES IT SAY DRIVEN WITH A HAMMER.
> 
> ...


Single 1/2"x8' copper clad rod

We interperet driven to be with a hammer or other impact tool.

You won't push a ground rod 4 or 5 feet into this soil we have. It's gumbo clay. Each condition is different to the location and the code attempts to adress them as best as it can.

Members of the local Amoco I&E shop tested our soil's conductivity a few years ago when some were members of our Electrical Board. They determined that a connection to an 8' "driven rod" was less than 25 ohms when the entire rod's surface was in contact with the clay. Anything less than full contact read in excess of 25 ohms. Since this rod was not making full contact over its entire surface with the clay it was not within code.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

jarhead0531 said:


> How the hell do you know if they used the water method.
> 
> I've spent 4 hours beating a ground rod in, and the second one went in using hand pressure only. Sometimes you get lucky. Both were driven, both were 8' in the ground, and if some inspector PULLED my rod out then failed me I would be contacting the state.
> 
> ...


If you'd bothered to read the first post you'd have seen that the top of the rod was untouched and the soil we have here does not allow rods to be simply pushed into it. Nor does it allow, when properly driven, for a rod to be pulled out of the ground with my one hand.

Contact the state if you wish, you still failed and the power would not be turned on until the installation was correct. So while you're whining to the state and not correcting the problem, the customer is calling someone else who does the job right, passes inspection and gets the lights on. Good luck collecting from that customer.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You are using assumptions to make code based decisions. you cannot prove that he broke any codes


What assumptions? I'm using my experience of doing electrical work in this area for 30+ years. The top of the rod was untouched by any tool. It, therefore, wasn't driven. I wish I could find enough monosyllables to make this clear.

Mark


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Do you frequently try to pull out ground rods


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> What assumptions? I'm using my experience of doing electrical work in this area for 30+ years. The top of the rod was untouched by any tool. It, therefore, wasn't driven. I wish I could find enough monosyllables to make this clear.
> 
> Mark


 Don't start with insults when you're the 1 that is wrong. Anyone who actually knows how the system operates would realize you're making a fuss over nothing


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

brian john said:


> Can you show me in the code where it says that was incorrectly installed?
> 
> NO WHERE DOES IT SAY DRIVEN WITH A HAMMER.
> 
> ...


You're right, brian. The code doesn't define driven for us, it leaves that definition up tp the AHJ. Many things are not completely spelled out and are left up to us to interpret. Our Electrical Board is made up of ECs, MEs, EEs and us. We're no more or less perfect than you or the committee that writes the NEC. We do the best we can and weigh several factors on some interpretations, including safety, cost to customer, cost to EC, overall burden community-wide, etc. Again, we do the best we can.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

electricalwiz said:


> Do you frequently try to pull out ground rods


I give each a tug since I've found some cut off about three feet long with a hacksaw.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Don't start with insults when you're the 1 that is wrong. Anyone who actually knows how the system operates would realize you're making a fuss over nothing


Callin' a tail a leg don't make it one.

Oh please, by all means, enlighten me as to how the system operates, mac.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Don't start with insults when you're the 1 that is wrong. Anyone who actually knows how the system operates would realize you're making a fuss over nothing


You've had a hard-on for me since you found out I was an inspector and you were the #1 poster in the thread about the sheet-rock holes and were vehemently against our ruling in that case. I've got a feelin' you've got a hard-on for inspectors in general. Doesn't matter. 

I'll make you a little wager. Bring your sledge hammer down here and drive an 8' ground rod 8' deep in this clay. Then lay aholt of it with one o' yer d_ckskinners and pull it out of the ground. I'll bet my paycheck you can't do it. No one can.

I wondered when I joined this forum why other members who are inspectors don't post about current events/jobs they passed/failed. It becomes clearer daily.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

I think what a few of y'all fail to realize is that I spent most of my life doin' what y'all are doin'. I've worked with the hacks, worked behind them and fixxed their f_ck-ups. I've also worked with some damn fine electricians and mechanics of which I am one. During my whole career of construction and service, I never received a red tag. Not one. I went by the Code and local ordinaces and always found a correct way to do my job.

Now I know what to look for. I know the short-wire tricks, copper tube fuses and most of the rest of the hack tricks. 

I'm a jake-leg electrician's worst nightmare... an inspector who's also a Master Electrician with the years to back it up.

Mark


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You failed that inspection based entirely on an assumption.

Unless you have proof that he used some prohibited method to put that rod in, you were wrong to fail that. 

The rod was there, and apparently that's all that your code requries. 

-John


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You are the inspector everyone talks about. Just so you know that doesn't make you a good inspector just one that real electricians talk about.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The water table is about one to two feet do would my ground rod be a fail?


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Should you have taken an ohm reading to prove your fail?


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Big John said:


> You failed that inspection based entirely on an assumption.
> 
> Unless you have proof that he used some prohibited method to put that rod in, you were wrong to fail that.
> 
> ...


Nope. You didn't read the posts either, John. Driven is defined by us as being hammered in with a hammer or other impact tool. The top of the rod was completely untouched. No impact tool had touched it. By our definition it wasn't driven. It has to be. Again, an 8' rod driven into 8' of clay can't be budged with a bare hand...period. There was no assumption involved. I don't see how it's apparent that our code require that a rod just be there? Have you read anything in my posts that states this?

When I called the master to inform him that it had failed and described what I found, he admitted that the guy was notorious for sinking his ground rods with water and had been warned against continuing the practice.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> You are the inspector everyone talks about. Just so you know that doesn't make you a good inspector just one that real electricians talk about.


Haven't we already had this discussion about "real" electricians? When you make the shop you work for the first million, come talk to me about real electricians. I can, with a phone call go back to work for any contractor for whom I've worked. 

Mark


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would like to see your legal definitions of driven as your board "interprets" them.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> Haven't we already had this discussion about "real" electricians? When you make the shop you work for the first million, come talk to me about real electricians. I can, with a phone call go back to work for any contractor for whom I've worked.
> 
> Mark


That's because they don't want you making up the inspection rules. Better on their team than against them.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Theriot said:


> The water table is about one to two feet do would my ground rod be a fail?


You're trying to apply your local conditions to ous...apples and oranges. Can you drive a ground rod 8' into the ground with a sledge or roto-hammer and then pull it out with one hand.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I would like to see your legal definitions of driven as your board "interprets" them.


The master for the company involved knew right away that it had been done incorrectly. He's an electrician with whom I've worked for years, knows me and knows the local ordinances. If you were in his position and asked to see them, they'd be provided. 

Mark


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It was determined by who that driven is hammered? I'm by far no code ninja but I'm looking and can't find that driven is hammered. Please a code reference. I think the master is just going along with what ever y'all say but if you would ask him his thoughts away from you I'm sure he would have a different option. I think you have to prove to me that it isn't 25 ohms.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> The master for the company involved knew right away that it had been done incorrectly. He's an electrician with whom I've worked for years, knows me and knows the local ordinances. If you were in his position and asked to see them, they'd be provided.
> 
> Mark


That's what I am saying Who says it's done incorrectly? Just you?? We have already determined your inspection dominance without real rules.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> That's because they don't want you making up the inspection rules. Better on their team than against them.


I don't make up rules. We follow the NEC. Where the board feels something is open to interpretation, we try to figure out the best way to do it.

You're attributing an animosity here that doesn't exist. When I left the field and took this job, I was thanked by numerous contractors, fellow electricians and power co. reps. They all knew my work and knowledge, and knew that I would carry out my job honestly, without malice and without favoritism.

Mark


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

God, you sound like a Texan!


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

What if the water level is high that day or it just finished raining does he have to wait till the water level in the soil subsides and to what level would you be ok with him beginning the driving of the rod. I would love to have an inspector tell me that I can finish a house because it rain two hours earlier. That I have to come back during when it's not the rainy season.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> That's what I am saying Who says it's done incorrectly? Just you?? We have already determined your inspection dominance without real rules.


OK, one more time for the illiterate. 

In art. 250 it says that the rod will be driven, but doesn't define driven.

The electrical board defines driven to mean with a hammer or other impact tool.

The top of the rod was untouched by any tool, therefore not driven. 

It's done incorrectly, as varified by the master of the company.

My "inspection dominance without real rules"? How was this determination made?.. and by whom?

"dominance" implies that I have some sort of agenda for busting balls. It doesn't exist. I get out of my truck for each inspection with a green tag in my pocket. I would like nothing more for all inspections to have the same outcome as the vast majority...passing. If a job fails, I have to go back to the truck and get that tag. Then I have to let the contractor know they failed, and why. Then I have to go back and reinspect when he fixxes it. I'd just as soon not have to do any of that. It wastes both of our time... and the worst part is it's completely unnecessary since the job could have been install correctly in the first place.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> God, you sound like a Texan!


Thanks, I take that as a compliment the way die-hard republicans like being told they sound just like die-hard republicans.

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Theriot said:


> What if the water level is high that day or it just finished raining does he have to wait till the water level in the soil subsides and to what level would you be ok with him beginning the driving of the rod. I would love to have an inspector tell me that I can finish a house because it rain two hours earlier. That I have to come back during when it's not the rainy season.


Again, you're apparently encountering a water problem there that you're attributing to our area. Not sure where you're going with it.

Mark


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

The ground is always wet here I would have to take the rod and bang it against something to dent the top and them drive it oops that would be driven. Half of the Rods can be done by hand. Does every mention in the code book that says driven mean hammered then?


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Theriot said:


> It was determined by who that driven is hammered? I'm by far no code ninja but I'm looking and can't find that driven is hammered. Please a code reference. I think the master is just going along with what ever y'all say but if you would ask him his thoughts away from you I'm sure he would have a different option. I think you have to prove to me that it isn't 25 ohms.





wesleydnunder said:


> OK, one more time for the illiterate.
> 
> *In art. 250 it says that the rod will be driven, but doesn't define driven.*
> 
> ...


Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> OK, one more time for the illiterate.
> 
> In art. 250 it says that the rod will be driven, but doesn't define driven.
> 
> ...


 
Please prove to us, (without your insults) either with minutes, or a legally adopted article that states "driven" must mean a power tool. What happens if an EC finds a place beside a foundation that was dug and backfilled. No clay would be involved. He finds a "sweetspot" and pushes the rod in. BUT WAIT, that's too easy, let's hit it with a hammer a few times just so we can meet the wording of the code?????? You have to frigging kidding me. All over a useless ground rod that DOES NOTHING in the normal day to day operation of the system 

Once again, provide is with your minutes, or documents defining "driven"

I bet ANYTHING you can't provide us with either of those two. Meaning , yes, everything wriiten thus far about your assumptions and dominance is true.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

Theriot said:


> The ground is always wet here I would have to take the rod and bang it against something to dent the top and them drive it oops that would be driven. Half of the Ross can be done by hand. Does every mention in the code book that says driven mean hammered then?


But here it can't be pushed in by hand. You're not getting that, are you?

Mark


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Please prove to us, either with minutes, or a legally adopted article that states "driven" must mean a power tool. What happens if an EC finds a place beside a foundation that was dug and backfilled. No clay would be involved. He finds a "sweetspot" and pushes the rod in. BUT WAIT, that's too easy, let's hit it with a hammer a few times just so we can meet the wording of the code?????? You have to frigging kidding me. All over a useless ground rod that DOES NOTHING in the normal day to day operation of the system
> 
> Once again, provide is with your minutes, or documents defining "driven"
> 
> I bet ANYTHING you can't provide us with either of those two. Meaning , yes, everything wriiten thus far about your assumptions and dominance is true.


I didn't say power tool, mac. I said hammer or other impact tool. You read every bit as well as you reason.

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> That's because they don't want you making up the inspection rules.


 

He PLAINLY does just that.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

wesleydnunder said:


> But here it can't be pushed in by hand. You're not getting that, are you?
> 
> Mark


Yea I get it. I know it's y'all interpretation. It's just funny how people define things deferent. Not trying to be rude sorry.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Please prove to us, (without your insults) either with minutes, or a legally adopted article that states "driven" must mean a power tool. What happens if an EC finds a place beside a foundation that was dug and backfilled. No clay would be involved. He finds a "sweetspot" and pushes the rod in. BUT WAIT, that's too easy, let's hit it with a hammer a few times just so we can meet the wording of the code?????? You have to frigging kidding me. All over a useless ground rod that DOES NOTHING in the normal day to day operation of the system
> 
> Once again, provide is with your minutes, or documents defining "driven"
> 
> I bet ANYTHING you can't provide us with either of those two. Meaning , yes, everything wriiten thus far about your assumptions and dominance is true.


If a grounding electrode is useless, why is it required, mac? Is there a ground rod lobby that convinced the code congress to require us to buy and install grounding electrodes that do nothing and are useless?

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> Contact the state if you wish, you still failed and the power would not be turned on until the installation was correct. So while you're whining to the state and not correcting the problem, the customer is calling someone else who does the job right, passes inspection and gets the lights on. Good luck collecting from that customer.
> 
> Mark


 
That's the problem with bully inspectors. They count on the EC wanting to get paid and know he can fix this for 100 bucks. Come here and you'd meet your match, I'd see to it that you were fired. And another EC cannot set foot on my contracted job in VA until I've legally abandoned it for 30 days. That would give me enough time to get your head back down to size.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> He PLAINLY does just that.


Whatever, mac. Remeber, you're the one that decided to make this personal.

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> Again, you're apparently encountering a water problem there that you're attributing to our area. Not sure where you're going with it.
> 
> Mark


 

How hard is this for you to figure out?? He's saying if the ground is wet and the rod goes in easy, you're gonna fail it??? 
YOUR' RE FRIGGING NUTS. I aim for backfill beside a basement with high hopes of pushing that rod in by hand.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It just for people who are scared to stand by anything to have no responsibility for anything. Just like Arcfault someone said they will save life's and now if they don't require them one death would open things up for lawyers.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Theriot said:


> Yea I get it. I know it's y'all interpretation. It's just funny how people define things deferent. Not trying to be rude sorry.


 
All foundations get backfilled. Is this clown gonna say we HAVE to drive it in clay?????????????


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> Whatever, mac. Remeber, you're the one that decided to make this personal.
> 
> Mark


 

Nothing personal, I hate all incorrect code interpretations.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's the problem with bully inspectors. They count on the EC wanting to get paid and know he can fix this for 100 bucks. Come here and you'd meet your match, I'd see to it that you were fired. And another EC cannot set foot on my contracted job in VA until I've legally abandoned it for 30 days. That would give me enough time to get your head back down to size.


I'm not a bully mac, but you can call me one if you like. Like I said you've had a hard-on for me from the beginning.

Fix it for a hundred bucks? Try 15, and that's giving the apprentice with the sledge a generous wage burden. 10 - 15 minutes tops to drive that ground rod with a sledge... about 5 with a TE-77.

I've had folks make the same threat here, mac. I'm still workin'. Here an owner (home or business) can hire and fire a contractor at will. That doesn't allow crooked contractors to get a job partially completed, stop work, hold up the homeowner for more money or "no power for 30 days".

Mark


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I really would like to know if it would be ok to drive sorry push a rod down after raining an hour or so. I know it rains there and people don't just stop work because of a morning rain. Is it against the boards rules to drive a rod after rain? And if so when can they go back to the house to drive it properly.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> If a grounding electrode is useless, why is it required, mac? Is there a ground rod lobby that convinced the code congress to require us to buy and install grounding electrodes that do nothing and are useless?
> 
> Mark


 
I didn't say a grounding electrode is useless. I said a ground ROD is useless. If a water pipe is used as an electrode and sharde by the whole neighborhood, it could POSSIBLY save the electronics in the house in the event of a lost utility grounded conductor. BUT, a ROD is a totally different story. Wheter it be 10 ohms, 9 8, 7 or 2 (impossible) there will still be enough imbalance to create overvoltage on one phase. A ground rod is not gonna stop that. It's simple math and ohms law if you feel like trying to prove me wrong, but don't waste your time. A ground rod is useless.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wesleydnunder said:


> Nope. You didn't read the posts either, John. Driven is defined by us as being hammered in with a hammer or other impact tool. The top of the rod was completely untouched. No impact tool had touched it....


 So, if he'd found a spot where he could push the rod in you would fail him unless his method of installing it in was a half-dozen taps with a 16oz. hammer? Because then it would have been technically driven.

Do you not see why people think you're needlessly splitting hairs?

-John


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> I'm not a bully mac,
> 
> Mark


Please provide us with minutes, or a legal interpretation amendment or you are _exactly_ that.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> So, if he'd found a spot where he could push the rod in you would fail him unless his method of installing it in was a half-dozen taps with a 16oz. hammer? Because then it would have been technically driven.
> 
> Do you not see why people think you're needlessly splitting hairs?
> 
> -John


 

6 hits won't do it. 6 hits is plainly not being driven. It would take at least 8 hits to actually be driven.



JEEZ


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It does not matter how many. He said the top had to show striking that's all. So you could use water than hit the top till it had a couple of hammer marks and your good.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Theriot said:


> It does not matter how many. He said the top had to show striking that's all. So you could use water than hit the top till it had a couple of hammer marks and your good.


 
Yep, that's how silly this word game is.


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## smiley mcrib (Sep 25, 2011)

If a ground rod can be pushed in by hand its not technically driven. Would that fail inspection because it wasn't driven? And has anyone tested to prove that they must me be driven? Don't want to cause any problems would simply like my questions answered thanks


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> Single 1/2"x8' copper clad rod
> 
> We interperet driven to be with a hammer or other impact tool.


You have that right?

In my opinion you are not only wrong.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am going to ask one more time. Please show me the legal mumbo jumbo. Please. If you can't you are making your own rules up


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I am going to ask one more time. Please show me the legal mumbo jumbo. Please. If you can't you are making your own rules up


I would hope that is NOT THE CASE.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

smiley mcrib said:


> If a ground rod can be pushed in by hand its not technically driven. Would that fail inspection because it wasn't driven? And has anyone tested to prove that they must me be driven? Don't want to cause any problems would simply like my questions answered thanks


It is driven, it is driven by hand.


From Dictionary.com

driv·en   [driv-uhn] Show IPA
verb
1.
past participle of drive.

drive   [drahyv] Show IPA verb, drove or ( Archaic ) drave, driv·en, driv·ing, noun, adjective
verb (used with object)
1.
to send, expel, or otherwise cause to move by force or compulsion: to drive away the flies; to drive back an attacking army; to drive a person to desperation.
2.
to cause and guide the movement of (a vehicle, an animal, etc.): to drive a car; to drive a mule.
3.
to convey in a vehicle: She drove them to the station.
4.
to force to work or act: He drove the workers until they collapsed.
5.
to impel; constrain; urge; compel.
EXPAND
verb (used without object)
14.
to cause and guide the movement of a vehicle or animal, especially to operate an automobile.
15.
to go or travel in a driven vehicle: He drives to work with me.
16.
Golf . to hit a golf ball, especially from the tee, as with a driver or driving iron: He drove long and straight throughout the match.
17.
to strive vigorously toward a goal or objective; to work, play, or try wholeheartedly and with determination.
18.
to go along before an impelling force; be impelled: The ship drove before the wind.
EXPAND
noun
20.
the act of driving.
21.
a trip in a vehicle, especially a short pleasure trip: a Sunday drive in the country.
22.
an impelling along, as of game, cattle, or floating logs, in a particular direction.
23.
the animals, logs, etc., thus driven.
24.
Psychology . an inner urge that stimulates activity or inhibition; a basic or instinctive need: the hunger drive; sex drive.


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## smiley mcrib (Sep 25, 2011)

Well if its put in by hand then it more than likely be pulled out. But its still making contact with the earth so isn't that legal? I've put plenty of rods in by hand just curious if anybody had some information about it


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Not saying this is the case, but electrical inspectors that make their own rules or interrupt rules as they see fit are the bane of the electrical trade.


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## smiley mcrib (Sep 25, 2011)

Well what's your opinion on the issue? I'd think as long as the rod is in contact with the earth it should be more than suitable.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I understand that he is just doing his job but those a holes on the board are being pompous. Picking and choosing the parts of the code they want to put their own twist on. They aren't checking ohms are they noo that would require them to do something. If you are going to be that by the book then be by the book. This board sounds like most religions picking what they feel like and ignoring the rest. If you are going to be a pain on the rods than do it right and check it for ohms.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Other than perform a test on the driven electrode there is no way to prove or disprove the adequacy**1* of the 
electrode.

*1-By adequate I mean if as a single electrode it meets the 25 ohm NEC requirement.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

My turn on this. #1. In some places around where I work, you cannot put in a ground rod vertical or anywhere near to it, cause Madam Pele spoke and the ground cooled down and turned into solid rock. #2. In another spot nearby at Kailua Beach, I tie a pull string onto the end of gr rod around the clamp, and let it sit over night in the sand verticle. When I come back the next day I gotta pull some back cause that bugger disappeared straight down to China. Ok, not really but two hammer taps and its 8 foot in.. 

#3 McClary almost has it right about how useless they are. Ground rods are useful to the utility providers when they manage to send high voltage down your service lines by accident of one type or another. Thats why they are in the code book in my opinion. Lobbying on the telegraph/ telephone companies way back before anybody here or on any code panel was born, and it stuck. We are doing the poco's job putting in a grounding grid to help them turn off the switch in a high voltage fault event. The more rods driven, the better for them to have a low enough resistance in the system to deliver the current back to the source using the earth. Its either that or we all pay for a fourth wire down to every end user, and that ain't about to happen. Now that you understand that we are footing the bill for the utility stockholders, I wouldn't feel too bad about it, cause we are also footing the bill to build concentration camps for us, a bunch of drones to fly over us and catch us speeding or doing un-permitted work, or drinking raw cows milk, or using naughty language or about a million other things they are going to be used for. So just drive the rod, or better yet- put in your uffer and h2o ground, and shut up and be a good slave. Besides the code requires it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Please provide us with minutes, or a legal interpretation amendment or you are _exactly_ that.





sbrn33 said:


> I am going to ask one more time. Please show me the legal mumbo jumbo. Please. If you can't you are making your own rules up


 

bump bump bump


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> It's also the lazy way and not by code.


 
The first part doesnt concern you.

The second part does.

I also believe you are wrong about both...


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Theriot said:


> The water table is about one to two feet do would my ground rod be a fail?


Hey Theriot.... Reckon what i'd cost you for the pile driver every time you'd have to "drive" that ground rod into solid soil in those parts? Thank God for salt water! I know it's a challenge even setting poles in that neck of the woods!
:lol:
-Jim


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I know the whole pain in the butt with the measuring ground rod just being an a-s


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Hey Theriot.... Reckon what i'd cost you for the pile driver every time you'd have to "drive" that ground rod into solid soil in those parts? Thank God for salt water! I know it's a challenge even setting poles in that neck of the woods!
> :lol:
> -Jim


But we have good hunting and fishing and our women are nice and big. Lol they'll deep fry you anything.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Theriot said:


> But we have good hunting and fishing and our women are nice and big. Lol they'll deep fry you anything.


I hear ya.... Half-Cajun myself, and been awhile since my last work in that part of the country. That was why the joke about the pile driver, 'cause that's the only thing I know of that could hammer that deep in that neck of the woods. Say, you wouldn't have a couple 50' or so ground rods layin' around, would ya? :lol:


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

wesleydnunder said:


> I just did an inspection on a new service on an existing house. There were a couple minor issues. Part of my inspection is to check the connection of the GEC to the ground rod. I noticed that the top of the ground rod hadn't been touched. I reached down with one hand and pulled an 8'x 1/2" copper-clad ground rod completely out of the ground. The service didn't pass, obviously. I left the EC a note on the tag referencing 250-53G. Our soil around here is gumbo and clay so makes a good ground if the rod is *"driven"* properly. Some of these guys try to cheat and use water to push the ground rod into the ground... much easier to do. It's also the lazy way and not by code.
> 
> Mark


IDK. Seems to me that you're indirectly questioning this too, hence the reason for you starting this thread....maybe in hopes of everyone's approval?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

It seems that the install meets Brian's posted definition of driven.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> IDK. Seems to me that you're indirectly questioning this too, hence the reason for you starting this thread....maybe in hopes of everyone's approval?


 
He left. He can't provide us the documentation we wasked for. The same thing would have happened if the EC would have challenged this guy.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Fueled by anger,* Driven* with rage.


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