# Hot tub pads



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I can't find where it say concrete pads for hot tubs must be bonded.


There is no code that says that specifically but look at 680.26(B)(2)


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

What a pit of quicksand!

Yes, it's open to dispute ... especially with the seeming conflict between 2011 and the TIA, regarding the 'equipotential plane' requirement. The TIA has the effect of removing the requirement for the usual 'drop in place' hot tub.

You can open up another can of worms by putting a gazebo over the tub. Now you probably need a ground rod.

I suppose the rule is: instal a tub, wind up in hot water!" :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

What is the code in Arkansas? Yes or no on the equipotential bond? 

How about if the tub sits recessed into a deck? 

Will the inspector even know the code?


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I can't find where it say concrete pads for hot tubs must be bonded.



Here is an answer I got from someone at this forum when I posted a similar question: I talked with 2 local (Ventura County) inspectors who said they do not require the equipotential bond because the sides of moveable spas are too high to have one foot in the water and one on the concrete.
*
Answer from a previous post*

The National Electrical Code has been temporarily changed to exempt portable spas from bonding requirements.

In 2008, the National Fire Protection Association added language requiring that pools and spas be connected to a bonding grid under the deck to prevent shock hazards. The mandate didn’t differentiate portable hot tubs from inground spas or pools.

“It would have meant that any portable spa would require an equipotential bonding grid underneath it, and anytime you’d move the spa, you’d have to move the installation as well,” said Carvin DiGiovanni, senior director, technical and standards at the Association of Pool & Spa Professionals. “Equipotential bonding may serve a purpose, but it doesn’t apply to portable spas.”

Manufacturers and retailers alike called the mandate prohibitively expensive and unnecessary. For homeowners to tear out portions of the deck and install a bonding grid could cost more than the hot tub itself, they said. Furthermore, currently the units must meet UL and ANSI/APSP standards, making a bonding grid redundant. And, finally, when portable spas are installed above ground, it’s nearly impossible to experience a shock from the deck, they said, because a bather would not be on the deck and in the water at the same time.

“In [an inground] swimming pool, you can be in the water, then crawl out on the deck surrounding it, and if the deck or water is electrified you could get shocked,” said Larry Nicholson, senior electronic engineer at Watkins Manufacturing in Vista, Calif. “If you’re stepping out of an above-ground spa, you won’t have one leg in the water and the other touching the deck,” added Nicholson, who helped draft the argument to alter the requirement.

Industry officials tried to enact a change in time for the 2011 code writing, but met with resistance from the NFPA. APSP then submitted a request for a tentative interim amendment (TIA), which is essentially a temporary addendum to the body of the code that had already passed. It automatically goes up for reconsideration during the next code-writing cycle.

Bonding wires and grids no longer will be needed on portable spas in states and localities adopting the 2011 NEC. Those still enforcing the 2008 language, however, may still require the grids. In those areas, professionals may try to show local building officials a copy of the TIA, found here, to try getting a waiver.

To push a TIA through, those requesting it must prove that the proposed change has technical merit and addresses a potential safety risk posed by the code language. The first committees hearing the proposal agreed that the change had technical merit, but didn’t believe it was an emergency. APSP appealed the decision, submitting that it did potentially put consumers at risk.

“People were having to tear up their whole patio and repour the concrete, and it was costing more to do that than to actually purchase the spa,” Nicholson said. “[The requirement] was forcing people to say, ‘You know what? I’m just not going to get a permit.’ I’ve seen installations where the electrical job was absolutely atrocious, and it was because the homeowner was doing it on their own and shortcutting things.”

A higher committee overturned the original decision.

The NEC is revised every three years, at which point all TIAs are automatically put up for reconsideration and public comment so that, if approved, it is adapted in the body of the code. The next NEC comes out in 2014.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Swimmer if you area is on the 2011 and your area has accepted the TIA then I agree otherwise you better cover your but -- You don't want to dig up the slab. Put the perimeter bond and tie to the steel and be done -- not a big deal.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I can't find where it say concrete pads for hot tubs must be bonded.


Sal go to nys suplemental...bonding wire around perimeter buried 6 in below grade...ect..ect..


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Outdoor Hot Tubs / Spas with nonconductive shells must have a #8 (or larger) solid, bare copper wire 18”-24” from the inside​hot tub wall under the perimeter surface 4”-6” below the final grade and connected to a metal part of the pump motor.....PITA

as per afore mentioned..NYS sup.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

In Arkansas it would be a crapshoot.

Arkansas would go by 2011, which calls for the equipotential plane, even if the tub is set on a wood deck. Yet ...

The NFPA issued a TIA that pretty much eliminates the requirement for any tub that's merely sitting on a deck. (A built-in or field-made tub would still need the grid). The problem is that AHJ's don't officially adopt TIA's ... leaving the inspector in the position of trying to enforce a rule that the rules' publisher says is silly.

Personally, I'd leave a provision for bonding, maybe even use the copper grid, if I was pouring a new pad or they were laying tile. If I was just bringing power to a new tub set atop an existing pad, I wouldn't worry about it. If the inspector got nervous, I'd propose excavating some of the concrete and bonding to the rebar / mesh, then patching.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RGH said:


> Outdoor Hot Tubs / Spas with nonconductive shells must have a #8 (or larger) solid, bare copper wire 18&#148;-24&#148; from the inside
> hot tub wall under the perimeter surface 4&#148;-6&#148; below the final grade and connected to a metal part of the pump motor.....PITA
> 
> as per afore mentioned..NYS sup.


So, this is not an NEC requirement but, yet I must comply? No problem..
Within 18-24" of hot tub? Or away??


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, this is not an NEC requirement but, yet I must comply? No problem..
> Within 18-24" of hot tub? Or away??


That is an NEC code. You have to make the area around the tub the same potential as the tub. This will help with transient voltages that can shock a person getting in and out of the tub. 

The 2011 NEC has a Tia that exempts this requirement for certain situations.


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## WarAdmiral (Jul 13, 2012)

Does the pad have metal in it?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

WarAdmiral said:


> Does the pad have metal in it?


Yes!


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## WarAdmiral (Jul 13, 2012)

Then you must ground the pad


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I was looking at that TIA and still don't understand whether that is enforceable or not. If so, it would make doing hot tubs a whole lot easier. I had someone ask about doing one under his deck sitting on a concrete surface and mentioned we may have to cut up that concrete.

How do you print one of these pdfs? I'm not having any luck.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Bump


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