# Hot panel change



## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

Have a customer that is willing to pay a huge IMO fee to swap a 100a qo 20sp to a 100a qo 32 space but won't allow a permit. House was just upgraded mid 2010 past ec was a hack, I've got a small mess to clean up 14/3 everywhere landed on multiple breakers some double landed etc. looking for any tips to swap the panel live plenty of room the se cable is looped inside the can. I'd upswell a 200a but the house is all gas and I'd rather not cut the poco tag since its in the front yard. I know I know I should of forced a permit but half the new work is done and it's an easy few grand I'd rather have the job than not.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Brace yourself because you are NOT gonna like the answers you're gonna get from this bunch on here. 

And to start it off:

1: Don't do it hot. Too much risk, one small slip and you will have the wrath of unfused POCO power going off in your face. 

2: If client is willing to pay that much, make them get the damn permit. YOU will be liable if anything goes wrong down the road, and if there is ever a fire in the house your unpermitted panel change is gonna make you the #1 target for the lawsuits that will follow. 

I would not do this job for any money.


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## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks for the honesty when I took the job I didn't plan on any of this. It was just a kitchen upgrade everything was on one circuit. Then I soon realized the hack work on the panel didn't think a hot change would be that bad and well now I'm really debating it, I like not being extra crispy. Just trying to get feedback from other members that have done them and that wont do them.


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## nutzack (Nov 11, 2011)

From what hear on hot panel changes with a hack they probably have a "grow room" (if you know what I mean) and think your legit
If they had half a brain they would wait for a good friends friend but then again a few grand is a few grand to both parties
Its a hard decision


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Knauer said:


> Have a customer that is willing to pay a huge IMO fee to swap a 100a qo 20sp to a 100a qo 32 space but won't allow a permit. House was just upgraded mid 2010 past ec was a hack, I've got a small mess to clean up 14/3 everywhere landed on multiple breakers some double landed etc. looking for any tips to swap the panel live plenty of room the se cable is looped inside the can. I'd upswell a 200a but the house is all gas and I'd rather not cut the poco tag since its in the front yard. I know I know I should of forced a permit but half the new work is done and it's an easy few grand I'd rather have the job than not.


Just cut the tag they will never check it anyway .


If you don't want to do that then cut the overhead wires.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Take off with a 12 circuit 60 amp subpanel.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Cut the drop if its overhead


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

if you must, the tags are fairly easy to 'pick' .....~CS~


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

If you got to do it hot, as soon as you pull the hots, put a piece of heat shrink on them. push it up as far as you can, cut it off about an inch past the end of the wire and shrink it on there.

As my dad would say, "Now don't _you_ ever do this" as he did it lol.

But really, if you absolutely positively have to do it hot, that is about the safest way I have found. Especially if you think you might be dealing with brittle insulation or something.


Just don't do it


Oh BTW, if you are dealing with SE, keep the SE still and slide the box off the wires, don't pull the SE out of the box or bend it if you can help it.


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## Whatevva (May 18, 2011)

Don't do it live...cut the overheads, or pick the tag. I've gotten POCO to reseal without an inspection if it's just been "Removed to test for faults in the panel"


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)




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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

You got two liabilities doing the panel hot.
The first one is that you may get yourself or someone else killed.
The second one is that by not pulling the permit and you get caught ...you are going to wish you were dead.

Taking shortcuts degrades the trade. :no:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Not worth my life.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

If these are smart meters, they will know if you cut the drop, or pull the meter. I pulled a Rappahannock meter, and they showed up within 15 minutes, asked what I was doing, and where are my licenses and permits to do so.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

To put things into perspective. Imagine 20-30 years from now you'll look back and think about that time you lost your license/you got hurt really bad/etc. What was it all for? A few grand.

That being said, if you go ahead with it. Work slower and be as safe as possible


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*meters*

some of the new meters have hidden microchips in them and you can't even tell til they show up. I think the fines are like $5,000 and/or 60 days in jail. 

How much you "profiting"?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't see what the big deal is, cut the tag and pull the meter. or cut the overhead lines. I thought all panel upgrades were done with live wire's somewhere.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I don't see what the big deal is, cut the tag and pull the meter. or cut the overhead lines. I thought all panel upgrades were done with live wire's somewhere.


 
Read post #14 and #16


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Read post #14 and #16


We have those here too. And the last one I did with a smart meter the edison guy showed up after 3 hours and I just told him I had the meter pulled to do some trouble shooting and then he was on his way. I always give myself some temp power when I am doing panel changes. I was thinking of saving an old meter main and just temping it in so I could keep the meter hot while I am working. I've also done a couple where no one showed up from the utility. I never minded doing them without permits though, if that is what the homeowner insisted. I just made the HO initial a box on the contract that said that they the HO's would be responsible for permits. And the one time I did have problem and had to get a permit after a panel I did three years earlier there was no fine and it passed easily.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I've done a few panels hot until...... One time a feeder slipped out of my hand and welded to the box, the meter sounded like a turbine winding up. I was about to run, but instead yanked the wire off the box, everything ended up fine, but I won't do that again.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

So no permit is a perfection good reason to not pay you. You do the job, the owner doesn't pay- what do you do-- admit you worked without a permit. Walk from this-- this guy obviously had problems in the past paying or not paying for work done without permits.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

or- Just blow up the POCOs transformer down the street.... 'splain that one!:jester:


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## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not blowing out the poco trans, I can only guess how bad that would be.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So no permit is a perfectly good reason to not pay you....


 That's my thought. Happened to a buddy of mine doing an un-permitted renovation on a house. He busted his ass, went to collect his pay, and the homeowner pretty much just laughed in his face. Turned into a huge headache for him.

-John


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## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

I've already been paid more than half, I don't usually get into situations with HOs not paying the bill. I'm just trying to figure out how to finish the job with as little risk to safety as possible. Cutting or picking the tag sounds the way to go assuming poco doesn't show up. I've never had the issue in the past but then again out of about 150 panels this will be the 3rd non permitted.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Cut the tag and pull the meter.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I can't tell *you* what to do but I'd simply cut the tag and pull the meter. I don't like doing it, for all the obvious/stated reasons but, I just go with the flow. 

I would not leave the old panel and sub off of it. I like to clean things up and eliminate old crap.

If I get prosecuted, I am prepared to handle it just like a speeding ticket. Accept responsibility and pay the fine.




It's easier to ask forgiveness that to ask for permission. For me, cutting the tags is usually done on a troubleshoot. I have trouble turning a one hour job into a several hour job scheduled around POCO's availibility.

Snip it close, rebend it with needlenose and reinstall it. You have to look close to tell it's been cut. I learned this from my boss about 2 months into the trade. I had a really good boss :thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

"No permit" is a *BIG RED FLAG* in my opinion.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Knauer said:


> I've already been paid more than half, *I don't usually get into situations with HOs not paying the bill*. I'm just trying to figure out how to finish the job with as little risk to safety as possible. Cutting or picking the tag sounds the way to go assuming poco doesn't show up. I've never had the issue in the past but then again out of about 150 panels this will be the 3rd non permitted.



Same here, except for this one time where I was never paid $2300 

That could be a lot of money, or not a lot of money, depends on the scale of work you do. 

To me, that's a lot of ****ing money.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If these are smart meters, they will know if you cut the drop, or pull the meter. I pulled a Rappahannock meter, and they showed up within 15 minutes, asked what I was doing, and where are my licenses and permits to do so.


That would NEVER happen with my POCO


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So no permit is a perfection good reason to not pay you. You do the job, the owner doesn't pay- what do you do-- admit you worked without a permit. Walk from this-- this guy obviously had problems in the past paying or not paying for work done without permits.


You do the work with a signed contract and they will lose in court.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

joethemechanic said:


> If you got to do it hot, as soon as you pull the hots, put a piece of heat shrink on them. push it up as far as you can, cut it off about an inch past the end of the wire and shrink it on there.
> 
> As my dad would say, "Now don't _you_ ever do this" as he did it lol.
> 
> ...



I was right there with you until you wrote "heat shrink".
Is that supposed to be better than a couple of wraps of duct tape?

My advise to the OP is:
If you have to ask, you may not want to do it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> That would NEVER happen with my POCO


I just don't really like unpermitted work. Sure we've all done it, but it's too east for something to go wrong. We were working in a Naval base in Maryland a few years back. While moving a fire alarm(I knew better than to unwire it) I simply took the screws out of hte face plate and slid it out of the box. Well, it pulled a wire out of a wirenut joint in the hallway. The next thing you know, the fire marshall is beating on the door. The first thing he aske is, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY BUILDING, AND WHERE IS YOUR PERMIT TO DO SO. At that moment, you better not be a trunk slammer.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So no permit is a perfection good reason to not pay you. You do the job, the owner doesn't pay- what do you do-- admit you worked without a permit. Walk from this-- this guy obviously had problems in the past paying or not paying for work done without permits.




Well I mailed the permit in. Didn't you get it? Inspections? Oh I knew I forgot something. :laughing:

I got all sorts of crap from a lot of guys here who told me I was wrong for telling a guy we pulled permits for many reasons. One it's the law and required and if we did the job and he didn't pay we couldn't take him to court if he didn't pay us. He called back a week later wanting me send him a proposal including permits but his start date was to soon for us to get to it.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> You do the work with a signed contract and they will lose in court.



And in NC the EC will lose his license and have to pay a fine. He can reapply after he does what the board requires. Usually a year suspension, fine and contractor education classes sometimes.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bulldog1 said:


> And in NC the EC will lose his license and have to pay a fine. He can reapply after he does what the board requires. Usually a year suspension, fine and contractor education classes sometimes.


I was just going to mention that each state is different with different laws.


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I was just going to mention that each state is different with different laws.


 
Yes each state has differant laws.
I would not do a change-out without a permit !
If the h/o has a problem with doing the job in a legal manner, you don't need the work that bad.It is your Butt on the line not his.
If something goes South it's your problem.
RUN!!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Bulldog1 said:


> And in NC the EC will lose his license and have to pay a fine. He can reapply after he does what the board requires. Usually a year suspension, fine and contractor education classes sometimes.


And it's enforced, what if the job is code compliant?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> And it's enforced, what if the job is code compliant?


It's called revenue, and tax revenue. We the people voted for it this way.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> And it's enforced, what if the job is code compliant?



You still broke the rules and will most likely have your license suspended for a year pay a fine and whatever else the state board requires.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Bulldog1 said:


> You still broke the rules and will most likely have your license suspended for a year pay a fine and whatever else the state board requires.


Now I was all for permits, I am just saying if a customer didn't want them that was fine with me, I had them check a box saying they would be responsible for them. I never thought of it as a red flag. I can spot red flags pretty good and I never had a problem with something like that. To me extremely negative customers who ho and hum the whole time is one of the biggest red flags. And the one time I had to pull a permit 3 years after the fact was in anaheim were they own their own utility and the meter readers report all cut tags. after that I learned to then just buy my own tags or do the trick were you cut it and put it back.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> We have those here too. And the last one I did with a smart meter the edison guy showed up after 3 hours and I just told him I had the meter pulled to do some trouble shooting and then he was on his way. I always give myself some temp power when I am doing panel changes. I was thinking of saving an old meter main and just temping it in so I could keep the meter hot while I am working. I've also done a couple where no one showed up from the utility. I never minded doing them without permits though, if that is what the homeowner insisted. I just made the HO initial a box on the contract that said that they the HO's would be responsible for permits. And the one time I did have problem and had to get a permit after a panel I did three years earlier there was no fine and it passed easily.


Homeowners can't pull permits for someone else to do the work in Michigan. Would any state allow this? I know I have to pull permits under my license or risk losing it.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> You do the work with a signed contract and they will lose in court.


In Michigan a contract would mean nothing in court if you broke the law and did not pull permits and inspections. You would be the one to lose in court as well as your license and probably get fined and cited.

In no state would a contract hold up in court if it hinged on illegal actions, ie no permits.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> And it's enforced, what if the job is code compliant?


If you didn't pull permits and have inspections It's not code compliant in most states. As that is usually part of the states electrical code.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

DUH! That's why you use fake names and disposable cell phones when you're trunk slamming.....I mean er.....right on! :thumbup:


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## Tojo (Nov 25, 2011)

rdr said:


> DUH! That's why you use fake names and disposable cell phones when you're trunk slamming.....I mean er.....right on! :thumbup:


I believe what I'm hearing on this forum. Sounds like grade school. I thought this was a forum for professionals The advise some of you are giving his is totally inappropriate. I'm guess and only guessing this is a non licensed state for journeyman electricians. Reason I say this is if caught he would lose his journeyman license in a heartbeat. And this guy is talking down about the previous work done. Buddy you need to really rethink this. Honestly you sound very very unprofessional and a class 1 beginner. Sorry about being so critical but not only your life is at stake here. Have some damn integrity. Or at least keep it to yourself


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

Check this out, see what it means to really be 'infeasible'. 

http://www.wbgllp.com/pages/partner-attorney/when-are-safety-measures.html


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brother said:


> Check this out, see what it means to really be 'infeasible'.
> 
> http://www.wbgllp.com/pages/partner-attorney/when-are-safety-measures.html


Great link, thank you for posting it.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I was right there with you until you wrote "heat shrink".
> Is that supposed to be better than a couple of wraps of duct tape?
> 
> My advise to the OP is:
> If you have to ask, you may not want to do it.


Not all the heat shrink stuff is crap, and you can leave it on the wire to hold the crappy old insulation together, Besides, it's easier to slide something over the end of the wire, than it is to tape wrap. You end up moving the wire around more and increasing the chances of a dead short to something. I've had insulation fall off some of that older stuff when moved around too much.

BTW, I'm figuring this is a get paid cash and the customer doesn't need a reciept kinda deal.

Just be sure to pay taxes on the cash


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Just cut the tag they will never check it anyway .
> 
> If you don't want to do that then cut the overhead wires.


Harry - just as always- I agree with you. I cut those tags with little remorse :thumbs up:


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Tojo said:


> I believe what I'm hearing on this forum. Sounds like grade school. I thought this was a forum for professionals The advise some of you are giving his is totally inappropriate. I'm guess and only guessing this is a non licensed state for journeyman electricians. Reason I say this is if caught he would lose his journeyman license in a heartbeat. And this guy is talking down about the previous work done. Buddy you need to really rethink this. Honestly you sound very very unprofessional and a class 1 beginner. Sorry about being so critical but not only your life is at stake here. Have some damn integrity. Or at least keep it to yourself


Wow.....trying to slam somebody with his very first post. WAY WAY too serious to see how it works around here. Stick around a little longer. This isn't the usual dead serious 100 % professional blah blah blah you get at MH. Take a joke. Lighten up.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I wouldn't recommend doing it hot unless you have at least several years of hot work experience under your belt. I've done plenty of hot panel changed in my day, you can cut and tape the mains off but if a jagged edge of the KO scores your main or you let it contact grounded parts, it's curtains for you.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Please remind us why the HO does not want a permit.

Ive had customers with the same request,I just explain that their 3-6000 dollar basement/bonus room improvement wont be covered by home owners ins if there is a loss.

I have also done work and pull the permit later,claiming a faulty main and emergency upgrade. We have an 'unofficial' grace period in most towns around here.

Get the permit for a specific project then .... Or claim that the inspector noticed the new drop and you Had to get one. Your now covered and off the hook.(This actually happend to me at my parents house yrs ago)

Or,just grow a spine.()


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Homeowners can't pull permits for someone else to do the work in Michigan. Would any state allow this? I know I have to pull permits under my license or risk losing it.




Thats BS


I doubt you have a masters license posting this amount of BS.


Two years ago I wired a barn in petoskey with two 200 amp meters under a HO permit. Met the inspector, told him I was licensed in MI in the 90's and had been in CA for 10 years and all he did was say nice work.

Four years ago I wired a house in waterford under an HO permit, met the inspector and all he said was nice work.

In the 10 years I worked in MI we were constantly doing office TI without permits, adding plugs in offices and doing large scale remodels in homes. With and without permits. When you get caught, they make you pull them, no fine, no license suspension, nothing. And as for court, Your so far off it's not even worth wasting the keystrokes.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> In Michigan a contract would mean nothing in court if you broke the law and did not pull permits and inspections. You would be the one to lose in court as well as your license and probably get fined and cited.
> 
> In no state would a contract hold up in court if it hinged on illegal actions, ie no permits.


Thats BS


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> If you didn't pull permits and have inspections It's not code compliant in most states. As that is usually part of the states electrical code.


And that too is BS. An installation can be code compliant without inspections.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> In Michigan a contract would mean nothing in court if you broke the law and did not pull permits and inspections. You would be the one to lose in court as well as your license and probably get fined and cited.
> 
> In no state would a contract hold up in court if it hinged on illegal actions, ie no permits.





Bkessler said:


> Thats BS


I think he is right.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I think he is right.


I don't, even a verbal agreement holds up in court if it can be proven.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> I don't, even a verbal agreement holds up in court if it can be proven.


If you were not breaking laws ..........


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

BBQ said:


> If you were not breaking laws ..........


I'd like to see a precedent your honor.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> I'd like to see a precedent your honor.


LOL

Me too ......


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I believe a judge might order an inspection if it was questionable whether the lack of permits was the reason someone withholding payments. But if it was agreed there would be no permits and there was signed agreement I believe the contractor would win every time. Did you BBQ get a permit when you fixed that broken MC a couple weeks ago at that grocery store? Or did you put your company's license on the line for a < $500 service call?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> I believe a judge might order an inspection if it was questionable whether the lack of permits was the reason someone withholding payments. But if it was agreed there would be no permits and there was signed agreement I believe the contractor would win every time. Did you BBQ get a permit when you fixed that broken MC a couple weeks ago at that grocery store? Or did you put your company's license on the line for a < $500 service call?


 
That's repair. He did not extend or modify a branch circuit.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> Did you BBQ get a permit when you fixed that broken MC a couple weeks ago at that grocery store? Or did you put your company's license on the line for a < $500 service call?


That would be repair, in most cities and towns around me they would not expect a permit and inspection for that. We actually hold 'maintenance' permits at some locations because those towns may require it.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's repair. He did not extend or modify a branch circuit.


Okay bad example. But my point is I doubt there are serious repercussions any where for working without a permit. Possibly if your doing something majorly stupid like adding a bathroom and letting the waste line drain into your neighbors pool. Or using old pallets as load bearing wall or your a serious repeat offender.

And if you and BBQ don't start agreeing with me I am gonna be renting a van, if you know what I mean.:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Tojo said:


> I believe what I'm hearing on this forum. Sounds like grade school. I thought this was a forum for professionals


 
That was your first mistake :jester:




Tojo said:


> The advise some of you are giving his is totally inappropriate.


That is only your opinion.



Tojo said:


> Reason I say this is if caught he would lose his journeyman license in a heartbeat.


It's a big world. You can't speak for every jusisdiction.





Tojo said:


> Sorry about being so critical but not only your life is at stake here. Have some damn integrity. Or at least keep it to yourself


Exagerate much? His world is not likely to end.  

And, next time, ease your way in :laughing:




> Homeowners can't pull permits for someone else to do the work in Michigan. Would any state allow this?


In AZ, HO's can pull permits for their own homes. There are restrictions for gas piping and electrical on rentals.


Also in AZ, no licence means no contract. I had it happen about 30 years ago from a ****head in a suit. It was a $2000 tuition. I briefly considered ****ing up his Jag in the parking lot but was able to rise above it and accept my fate.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Tojo said:


> I believe what I'm hearing on this forum. Sounds like grade school. I thought this was a forum for professionals The advise some of you are giving his is totally inappropriate. I'm guess and only guessing this is a non licensed state for journeyman electricians. Reason I say this is if caught he would lose his journeyman license in a heartbeat. And this guy is talking down about the previous work done. Buddy you need to really rethink this. Honestly you sound very very unprofessional and a class 1 beginner. Sorry about being so critical but not only your life is at stake here. Have some damn integrity. Or at least keep it to yourself



Is this guy trying to take away my drama queen title? :whistling2::laughing:

Noob. :jester:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Tojo said:


> I believe what I'm hearing on this forum. Sounds like grade school. I thought this was a forum for professionals The advise some of you are giving his is totally inappropriate. I'm guess and only guessing this is a non licensed state for journeyman electricians. Reason I say this is if caught he would lose his journeyman license in a heartbeat. And this guy is talking down about the previous work done. Buddy you need to really rethink this. Honestly you sound very very unprofessional and a class 1 beginner. Sorry about being so critical but not only your life is at stake here. Have some damn integrity. Or at least keep it to yourself


Hes just trolling anyway toto, settle down.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> Okay bad example. But my point is I doubt there are serious repercussions any where for working without a permit. Possibly if your doing something majorly stupid like adding a bathroom and letting the waste line drain into your neighbors pool. Or using old pallets as load bearing wall or your a serious repeat offender.
> 
> And if you and BBQ don't start agreeing with me I am gonna be renting a van, if you know what I mean.:laughing:


 

Oh, if that's the case, I agree


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Is this guy trying to take away my drama queen title? :whistling2::laughing:
> 
> Noob. :jester:


Man I was driving my daughter back to college this evening and saw a license plate that said "MZslick". I wanted a picture bad, but they were doing 90 in the fast lane


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

AFOREMA1 said:


> If you didn't pull permits and have inspections It's not code compliant in most states. As that is usually part of the states electrical code.


I know that most places that I have worked, it is the ELECTRICIAN who has to pull the permit, even if the customer signs- off that they will be financially responsible go it in the contract. Code compliant or not, it is the ELECTRICIAN who bears the consequence of whether or not there was a permit to do the job.... Definitely NOT worth the risk in my book!


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Ok so I didn't read the whole thread so if it's already been said, sorry.
Disregarding whether it needs a permit or not, why wouldn't you just pull the meter? Then you won't be working hot.


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## Knauer (Jun 6, 2011)

leland said:


> Please remind us why the HO does not want a permit.
> 
> Ive had customers with the same request,I just explain that their 3-6000 dollar basement/bonus room improvement wont be covered by home owners ins if there is a loss.
> 
> ...


They just bought the house a few months ago and the electrical was updated. Well the kitchen was all on one 20a line and the past sparky did a **** job. Found a few remodel boxes with the backs cut all the way off. He set a 20sp panel and there just wasnt enough room. Permit wise HOs issue was paying for arc fault breakers and whatever else might have to be fixed. I pulled 2 appliance lines, fridge line, micro, lighting, and split the d/d on one 20a. Also had to add a sub panel for the garage workshop. I didn't want 3 panels. I like clean installs. I understand not wanting to buy 15 afcis yes they have a purpose but some people can afford it. What do you do when youve already gutted your kitchen etc can't really stop half way. At this point if love to have it inspected and have the customer forced to pay to upgrade but I'm not an ass customer paid for the job he got the same quality permit or not.


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