# Site safety plan



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Big facility with many buildings. What is the best way to insure safety?

I think there should be a process to insure:
1) All documentation is up to date, especially for >480V panels. Make sure the site plan includes changes ASAP.
2) Periodic thermal scan of high power connections. How often??
3) Higher power breaker testing. How often?
4) Periodic test of critical systems like flood pumps. How often?
5) Test of feeders with Megger or fall of potential.

Also there should be some back-up hardware:
1) indicators on each panel to show powered state in case the documentation in #1 above is not up to date.
2) Thermal and current monitoring to track potential future failures.

Comments appreciated.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

All documentation up to date? Just what does that mean? You have a letter from your POCO with the current AIC rating for your complex? I worked at a facility where it changed 3 times in 10 years.
You have a Arc Fault Study completed and all electrical equipment is with the information.
There has been a Coordination Study done in the last 5 years.

Most site safety plans will not let you take the cover panels off the gear when energized any more. See Arc Fault above. I am not a fan of IR scans unless you have IR windows installed everywhere.
Then the next problem is what test are the windows tested to, as they are not made by the MFG of your electrical gear. Much rather dive into Partial Discharge. 

What does Higher power breaker testing mean? I have seen places do everything yearly, next to the ocean in So California to every 5 years. Along with testing and maintaining medium voltage testing and comparing the results to the QC data provided by the MFG of the cable using a high pot.

Fall-of-Potential test method is used to measure the ability of an earth ground system or an individual electrode to dissipate energy from a site. 

What does current monitoring mean in your world?

All of this cost money and down time. Something most production managers are never happy to allow.
I get the sense you do not understand what working equipment hot means.
What arc fault suits and FR clothing do your people have currently? 
Are Z 87 glasses required on the property? Electrical Hazard boots for your electrical workers?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Good luck with getting the buy-in for most of that. Costs will usually be cut in lean times and sadly my experience has seen PM programs are first to go.
Electrical drawings are only as good as those working on them. If no one updates them when they do even a minor change they are no good.
Arc Fault studies need to be reviewed and updated. At a recent refresher course they found ours is outdated, and there has been zero action to get it reviewed that I've seen. We had a dozen or so sites that were missed in the initial review and they still aren't done. Someone figured they were 120/240 volt 100 amp services, but they're 480 volt 100 amp services.
Running spare, or emergency pumps can be scheduled if you can get operations buy in.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

SWDweller said:


> All documentation up to date? Just what does that mean? You have a letter from your POCO with the current AIC rating for your complex? I worked at a facility where it changed 3 times in 10 years.
> You have a Arc Fault Study completed and all electrical equipment is with the information.
> There has been a Coordination Study done in the last 5 years.
> 
> ...


Documentation up to date. There are a lot of changes and sometimes they don't get ducumented in a timely fashion.

You make a very good point about IR scans ie opening panels. Have you used any of the energized status monitors that tell you the voltage inside the panel without needing to open it?

Have you had fall of potential done on a periodic basislike the coordination study?

Working hot. Other than the obvious where the power is on when you work, I have to learn a lot more about the PPE at different energy levels.

It all costs time and money, and it may be worth it.

Thank you for you time to reply you give a lot to think about.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I do not understand your statement. "Have you used any of the energized status monitors that tell you the voltage inside". What is the point of this? Every piece of switch gear has a UL tag on it stating the voltage it was built for. Sounds to me like you need to get out of the office more and follow a maintenance crew around and ask questions. If the voltage is not correct for that system most of the machines will be angry and shut down.

Why do you keep bringing up fall of potential? That is a test for the ground for the system. It is NOT a test you do on switch gear. At least I never have. Testing equipment I use, ohm meter, DLRO, megger, and a high pot. Low voltage testing can be done with a megger. Medium Voltage usually with a high pot but not always. I have done Medium Voltage cables with megger at 5000v looking for over a gig ohm. Extension cords for electric mining shovels was the application. Some times 6000 feet long. This cable is about 3" in diameter and about 6 pounds a foot. Layed them down and picked them up with a 4 ton truck with power reel capabilities.

Coordination Studies are expensive. The sad part about them is once done if you add a new load it is time to do the study over. Which is almost never done. Lucky if the company does one every decade. Some companies have a licensed electrical engineer on staff (or PE) and he can add new loads into the study if the company has the software to do the calculations. 

I live and work in the desert, Arizona. The soil can get powerful dry which and increase the amount of ohms the grounding system will have. If there is any soil. One place where I worked bought a Aemc 6416 to read ohms to ground on the ground wells we installed. We did readings every month for a year and came to the conclusion it was easier to put the ground/chemical rods in planters with the flowers so the ground was moist all year long. 
Most places I have worked test the ground when it is installed and again if there is a problem.
A fall of potential test is not quick.

FYI 
Low voltage is less than 1000v ac
Medium voltage is 1001 -- 34999 volts ac


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

SWDweller said:


> I do not understand your statement. "Have you used any of the energized status monitors that tell you the voltage inside". What is the point of this? Every piece of switch gear has a UL tag on it stating the voltage it was built for. Sounds to me like you need to get out of the office more and follow a maintenance crew around and ask questions. If the voltage is not correct for that system most of the machines will be angry and shut down.
> 
> Why do you keep bringing up fall of potential? That is a test for the ground for the system. It is NOT a test you do on switch gear. At least I never have. Testing equipment I use, ohm meter, DLRO, megger, and a high pot. Low voltage testing can be done with a megger. Medium Voltage usually with a high pot but not always. I have done Medium Voltage cables with megger at 5000v looking for over a gig ohm. Extension cords for electric mining shovels was the application. Some times 6000 feet long. This cable is about 3" in diameter and about 6 pounds a foot. Layed them down and picked them up with a 4 ton truck with power reel capabilities.
> 
> ...


I do not understand your statement. "Have you used any of the energized status monitors that tell you the voltage inside". What is the point of this? Every piece of switch gear has a UL tag on it stating the voltage it was built for. Sounds to me like you need to 

Saw a product that you could mount next to a panel to tell you if it was energized without opening. Just some indicator lights. Last I checked, a label wont' do that for you. I try to find a picture so you know what I am talking about.

Them are some heavy cables.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I know not of what your talking about.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

SWDweller said:


> I know not of what your talking about.


Found it. you ever use these?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Start small. As others said it gets very expensive when doing the co-ordination study and arc flash study. They can run $40,000 per mid size building. I do not know what the end goal is or what is the purpose of the electrical safety plan in your case. Many HSE people take an outside class and come back to set the world on fire only to be shot down because of the cost. If there is little to plan in place I would start with things that do not cost much like going around marking all the panels and make sure the directories are up to date. Lable all receptacles, lighting banks, motors, switches basically everything that someone could work on. Include the panel and breaker number. If there are a lot of electrical panels maybe make a map of where they are and what size. Have accurate line diagrams. All this helps when it comes time to do the more expensive stuff. Go after the low hanging fruit. You don't want to give sticker shock to the guys who sign the checks.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

kb1jb1 said:


> Start small. As others said it gets very expensive when doing the co-ordination study and arc flash study. They can run $40,000 per mid size building. I do not know what the end goal is or what is the purpose of the electrical safety plan in your case. Many HSE people take an outside class and come back to set the world on fire only to be shot down because of the cost. If there is little to plan in place I would start with things that do not cost much like going around marking all the panels and make sure the directories are up to date. Lable all receptacles, lighting banks, motors, switches basically everything that someone could work on. Include the panel and breaker number. If there are a lot of electrical panels maybe make a map of where they are and what size. Have accurate line diagrams. All this helps when it comes time to do the more expensive stuff. Go after the low hanging fruit. You don't want to give sticker shock to the guys who sign the checks.


Good idea about low hanging fruit. Since I am learning about this stuff, can you recommend one of these outside classes. I know there are plenty but don't know good from bad.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I have never seen those before. I am a dinosaur (over 70) so spending $550 for this LINE VOLTAGE toy plus installation seems a waste to me. This device REQUIRES PPE, Glasses, gloves, and your potentially putting men in danger because it is HOT! Probes get cracked, worn etc.

I would much rather have an IQ250, no PPE required 
or what I used to install a lot of IQDP4030. Again no PPE required and a lot more information.

I worked for Cutler-Hammer/Eaton and have installed thousands of these devices. I did pick products that I know best. I am certain there are other products by other MFG's that are equal or superior in performance. There is a communication module that attaches to the back of these devices and with the Eaton software you can collect the data on a computer, trend it, and all sorts of interesting things that a plant would want to know with out leaving your chair or calling a man to take live readings. 

This device sets a really BAD precedence IMO. Your telling employees to work hot. I would almost bet the insurance company would have kittens and puppies over that idea.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

SWDweller said:


> I have never seen those before. I am a dinosaur (over 70) so spending $550 for this LINE VOLTAGE toy plus installation seems a waste to me. This device REQUIRES PPE, Glasses, gloves, and your potentially putting men in danger because it is HOT! Probes get cracked, worn etc.
> 
> I would much rather have an IQ250, no PPE required
> or what I used to install a lot of IQDP4030. Again no PPE required and a lot more information.
> ...


I will check those out. I like the Grace PESD I showed because when the LEDs are off you KNOW the panel is dead without opening it. The bad precedence is that enables bad documentation practices, but gives a high degree of safety.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> Found it. you ever use these?
> View attachment 172064
> View attachment 172064


We've got hundreds of Gracie lights installed through our facilities. Part of them is also knowing what system they are monitoring. They seems to work ok.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

EJPHI said:


> I will check those out. I like the Grace PESD I showed because when the LEDs are off you KNOW the panel is dead without opening it. The bad precedence is that enables bad documentation practices, but gives a high degree of safety.


Surely you wouldn't trust your life with a light that is "off"?


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

joe-nwt said:


> Surely you wouldn't trust your life with a light that is "off"?


These Grace things have two lights for redundancy. First see if any lights are on, then shut off the panel with the breaker you think is correct. Next see if the lights are off (they should have been on before flipping the supply breaker). If they were off while the panel was still energized, then they are not working correctly. I think this is safer than assuming the panel is off after flipping what you think is the correct breaker then opening the panel to test with you meter.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

First off, you always test regardless whether the lights are off or on. Always test to ground. Would the lights be off or on if the neutral was broken somewhere and one phase was still hot?

Secondly, no panel or equipment is truly dead until it is grounded. Maybe you think that is silly but remember what I say for the rest of your career.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> First off, you always test regardless whether the lights are off or on. Always test to ground. Would the lights be off or on if the neutral was broken somewhere and one phase was still hot?
> 
> Secondly, no panel or equipment is truly dead until it is grounded. Maybe you think that is silly but remember what I say for the rest of your career.


There are different configurations for what the lights should look like under normal conditions, such as 3 phase supply, single phase 120, 240/480, etc. I've had some induce a voltage when the control power is a separate supply, so they definitely aren't fool proof!


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> These Grace things have two lights for redundancy. First see if any lights are on, then shut off the panel with the breaker you think is correct. Next see if the lights are off (they should have been on before flipping the supply breaker). If they were off while the panel was still energized, then they are not working correctly. I think this is safer than assuming the panel is off after flipping what you think is the correct breaker then opening the panel to test with you meter.


Never assume!! And Test Before Touch!

And who randomly switches off a breaker supplying a panel in any environment? Bad things can happen if you try that and guess wrong!


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

joe-nwt said:


> First off, you always test regardless whether the lights are off or on. Always test to ground. Would the lights be off or on if the neutral was broken somewhere and one phase was still hot?
> 
> Secondly, no panel or equipment is truly dead until it is grounded. Maybe you think that is silly but remember what I say for the rest of your career.


With the lights you increase the odds of the panel being off before you open it to test. You still need to test; your life may depend on it.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

glen1971 said:


> Never assume!! And Test Before Touch!
> 
> And who randomly switches off a breaker supplying a panel in any environment? Bad things can happen if you try that and guess wrong!





glen1971 said:


> Never assume!! And Test Before Touch!
> 
> And who randomly switches off a breaker supplying a panel in any environment? Bad things can happen if you try that and guess wrong!


Shouldn't be random. You flip the breaker that is supposed to de-energized the panel you want to work on. How do you for sure it is deenergized without
removing the cover without some sort of external indicator?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> Shouldn't be random. You flip the breaker that is supposed to de-energized the panel you want to work on. How do you for sure it is deenergized without
> removing the cover without some sort of external indicator?


I was referring to your comment where you said, "...Shut off the panel with the breaker you think is correct.". The only way yo know for sure is to test it with a meter.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

glen1971 said:


> I was referring to your comment where you said, "...Shut off the panel with the breaker you think is correct.". The only way yo know for sure is to test it with a meter.


That's the rub you don't know for sure if the panel is de-energized without removing the cover and probing with your meter. The indicators help but aren't 100%. If they were on before
your flipped the panel breaker and off afterwards you have more confidence that your flipped the right breaker. Sometimes breakers are mislabeled.


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