# I've never seen this before



## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

This is in the attic of a house, he thinks it was some sort of DIY'ers home automation attempt. All the power comes in through the bottom into the boxes and out through something like 18 AWG 3 wire strands. He said these go to all the light switches in the house and there is one switch downstairs that turns all the lights on or off and all other switches operate normally.

What is this monstrosity??


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*EE*

It was probably an Electrical Engineer in college in the 60/70's doing so high tech low voltage stuff with his first house.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> This is in the attic of a house, he thinks it was some sort of DIY'ers home automation attempt. All the power comes in through the bottom into the boxes and out through something like 18 AWG 3 wire strands. He said these go to all the light switches in the house and there is one switch downstairs that turns all the lights on or off and all other switches operate normally.
> 
> What is this monstrosity??



The wiring is nice and neat! :laughing:


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Cletis said:


> It was probably an Electrical Engineer in college in the 60/70's doing so high tech low voltage stuff with his first house.


The house is from the 50's so you may be right...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> ...What is this monstrosity??


 It's a pay day, that's what! 








The best part about that is how much fun it will be to rip it out.

-John


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

They are low voltage light switching panels with relays. There should be some step down transformers also.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

They look like GE RR7 relays. So I would assume it's a standard 3-wire low voltage system that was common back then. They still make the relays for that system to this very day. Not sure about the switches though.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

It's nothing I would be too concerned about. It could be retroffitted with a modern system like a WattStopper or a Lutron, or left alone and it will continue working just fine.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

here are some pics of the panel.

He said the subpanel directly next to the main was for a generator that is no longer at the house. I assume the taps into the main are generator/surge protection related? I pretty much snapped the pics and was out of there and said someone will be in touch. This is not my area so I did not want to get to involved with it.

Oh, the panel is also mounted directly below a 4" drain pipe and the condensation seems to have reaked havoc on the right side breakers, all the screws have rust. This is a 100A service and he would like to upgrade to 200A.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Peter D said:


> They look like GE RR7 relays. So I would assume it's a standard 3-wire low voltage system that was common back then. They still make the relays for that system to this very day. Not sure about the switches though.


The switches in the house where weird too, should have grabbed some pics


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> They are low voltage light switching panels with relays. There should be some step down transformers also.


There are transformers all over the back


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Ka-Ching!


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

zwodubber said:


> There are transformers all over the back


Ok, the xo's power the relays for the light switches. When the xo's goes bad that section of the dwelling can either be stuck with the lights on or off until a new xo is installed.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

I took a quick clamp meter reading on the incoming feed. 10.7A and 5.1A. The neutral had 4.1A


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Close ups of panel oddities

right side rusty connections




















Wires spliced into what appears to be the ground (black) but it was tough to tell exactly where the ground came from...

He said it was grounded to a water pipe by the panel when he moved in, and the end of the water pipe into the earth was replaced with plastic PVC??? He ran a ground rod himself when he saw that...

I don't know what to think here


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Peter D said:


> They look like GE RR7 relays. So I would assume it's a standard 3-wire low voltage system that was common back then. They still make the relays for that system to this very day. Not sure about the switches though.


 
_that they are_



















There's many a relay box next to panels in the higher end homes around here wired with low V switching throughout

It was a 60's Jetson thing

myself, i'm still waiting for my flying car.....

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> The switches in the house where weird too, should have grabbed some pics


 If you look up the relay Peter posted, it's a latching type. So I'd bet all the switches are momentary.

-John


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yes , little rockers , about 3/4" square

multiple locations done , without a 3 or 4 way in a dwelling

rather cost effective , back in the day, on the switching end i would imagine

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have a spare transformer for one of those systems. I have seen about 3 houses in the area with them. At least one was converted. I believe they were called touch plate lighting control

Switch plates looked like this


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*touch plates*



Dennis Alwon said:


> I have a spare transformer for one of those systems. I have seen about 3 houses in the area with them. At least one was converted. I believe they were called touch plate lighting control
> 
> Switch plates looked like this


The houses with those are great. It's basically grounds for a total rewire. By the time you try to find those touch plates that are slowly going bad that match and such (color, poles, etc..) it's so pricey that's it's easy to talk them into a rewire or at least just run a bunch of new switch legs from lights to switches and slowly convert back to normal. They always put their relays up in the attic which sucks. We call them James Bond houses around here. And yes, it was late 50's mostly.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Cletis said:


> The houses with those are great. It's basically grounds for a total rewire. By the time you try to find those touch plates that are slowly going bad that match and such (color, poles, etc..) it's so pricey that's it's easy to talk them into a rewire or at least just run a bunch of new switch legs from lights to switches and slowly convert back to normal. They always put their relays up in the attic which sucks. We call them James Bond houses around here. And yes, it was late 50's mostly.


That would be like taking the V-8 out of your swamp buggy and replacing it with a 4 cylinder just because you can't count past 4.:thumbsup:


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Big John said:


> If you look up the relay Peter posted, it's a latching type. So I'd bet all the switches are momentary.
> 
> -John


I'm stopping up there sometime today, the switches are a rocker push style (top is on, bottom is off) with a red light in the middle.

Thanks for all your help guys, this is something I have not come across before. I still have a lot to learn and this forum continues to amaze me


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> _that they are_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw them at a genernal dynamics plant in california back in 1980..Also known as touch plate.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Now about the panel, why would someone mount it directly below a 4" drain pipe? I would think the pipe must have been installed after the panel because I can't see any electrician doing an install like that. Or is it just me?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> yes , little rockers , about 3/4" square
> 
> multiple locations done , without a 3 or 4 way in a dwelling
> 
> ...


GE built a building that housed the distribution center and regional offices, in the early 60's on the northwest side of Milwaukee, that used that system for lighting control. I guess they were pretty proud of it.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I've run into one of those relay panels exactly once. It struck me as the dumbest thing imaginable for the house it was in. Basically a little beach cottage with like 4 rooms total.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I have touch plate in my house, I hated the systems but have really grown to appreciate mine. I am in the middle of a one room at a time remodel and will be adding a dimmer panel to control some of the rooms with can lights. Once you get used to them there easy to work on. BTW, the switches and contactors are not at all hard to find. But they are a bit pricey.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> I have touch plate in my house, I hated the systems but have really grown to appreciate mine. I am in the middle of a one room at a time remodel and will be adding a dimmer panel to control some of the rooms with can lights. Once you get used to them there easy to work on. BTW, the switches and contactors are not at all hard to find. But they are a bit pricey.


what sort of dimmer panel interfaces?

~CS~


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> what sort of dimmer panel interfaces?
> 
> ~CS~


No interface, just a about six 1000 watt dimmer on the load side of the contactors which will be hidden behind a door in a recessed steel enclosure. 
I priced out touch plates factory upgrades, but they want 5g and up for 30 zones.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The funeral home I do work on from time has one of those relay panels. They are easy enough to work on. Looks like someone made their own set up out of a pile of parts. Not sure what the selling point is, but they work well enough.


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## electrician2 (Oct 1, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> The funeral home I do work on from time has one of those relay panels. They are easy enough to work on. Looks like someone made their own set up out of a pile of parts. Not sure what the selling point is, but they work well enough.


 
They were cool because many times you would have a master control panel at the front door. Walk in and turn on any light, or all lights in the home from right there. Or, on your way out, turn off upstairs bedroom lights without going up there.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Here is what the switches in the house look like


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

zwodubber said:


> Here is what the switches in the house look like


Wow. That's hideous. The GE ones don't look that bad. :blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Wow. That's hideous. The GE ones don't look that bad. :blink:


Don't you remember installing that Pete.??:blink::laughing::thumbup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

We have a couple of buildings here that use them. One of the larger buildings has about 200 of them little cans hidden in the electrical closets. 
They last awhile and only a few of us remember were they are hidden or what they do. 
A pain to change one out as they are so close together.


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## Signalservice (Sep 7, 2011)

was on the phone the other day with a company called Touch Control, in Indianapolis, might be a/or the parts source for the original system. Seems like it would be good to move the panel or the drain pipe.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

electrician2 said:


> They were cool because many times you would have a master control panel at the front door. Walk in and turn on any light, or all lights in the home from right there. Or, on your way out, turn off upstairs bedroom lights without going up there.


My house has a master control in the bedroom with one labeled coffee. It turns on half of one of the kitchen plugs. 1950's, before automatic coffee pots. Anyone on this forum that old. Macmike?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> We have a couple of buildings here that use them. One of the larger buildings has about 200 of them little cans hidden in the electrical closets.
> They last awhile and only a few of us remember were they are hidden or what they do.
> A pain to change one out as they are so close together.




I know two high school buildings, and a commercial building that still uses low voltage switches and relays. 

I'm sure there are many still in use, and you can still buy the switches and the relays. Just replaced a few this spring.

Not that rare!! 

But I agree they are a PITA.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> I know two high school buildings, and a commercial building that still uses low voltage switches and relays.
> 
> I'm sure there are many still in use, and you can still buy the switches and the relays. Just replaced a few this spring.
> 
> ...


quite common here, schools and gov't buildings


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> No interface, just a about six 1000 watt dimmer on the load side of the contactors which will be hidden behind a door in a recessed steel enclosure.
> I priced out touch plates factory upgrades, but they want 5g and up for 30 zones.


e sort of master slave deal Bk?

~CS~


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> e sort of master slave deal Bk?
> 
> ~CS~


Sort of, I got the idea from a ball room at a hotel I did. All the chandeliers were on sp switches when you walked in the room, but off in the corner was a dimmer panel. I don't want to put the dimmers in the same room as the touch plate switches so it's not confusing.


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## journeyman777 (Mar 29, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> This is in the attic of a house, he thinks it was some sort of DIY'ers home automation attempt. All the power comes in through the bottom into the boxes and out through something like 18 AWG 3 wire strands. He said these go to all the light switches in the house and there is one switch downstairs that turns all the lights on or off and all other switches operate normally.
> 
> What is this monstrosity??


Wow, lollol


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> My house has a master control in the bedroom with one labeled coffee. It turns on half of one of the kitchen plugs. 1950's, before automatic coffee pots. Anyone on this forum that old. Macmike?


67 this next December. Many of the tube type clock radios built in the 50's had a recepticle on the back to control coffee makers, ETC. Most were rated for 1500 watts. Usually, the models with the Telechron clocks.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

journeyman777 said:


> Wow, lollol


You laughed twice?


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

homeowner found the original drawing of the wiring from the 60's.

If anyone is interested in higher resolution PM me.




















Master switch


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You laughed twice?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> 67 this next December. Many of the tube type clock radios built in the 50's had a recepticle on the back to control coffee makers, ETC. Most were rated for 1500 watts. Usually, the models with the Telechron clocks.



I beat you! I will be 70 this Dec. 24th 

wheelchair: Not Yet!:laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> 67 this next December. Many of the tube type clock radios built in the 50's had a recepticle on the back to control coffee makers, ETC. Most were rated for 1500 watts. Usually, the models with the Telechron clocks.



I beat you! I will be 70 this Dec. 24th 

:wheelchair: Not Yet!:laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

oldtimer said:


> I beat you! I will be 70 this Dec. 24th
> 
> wheelchair: Not Yet!:laughing:


Wow 70, when was the last time you skated?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> I beat you! I will be 70 this Dec. 24th
> 
> :wheelchair: Not Yet!:laughing:


What do you think about all these pesky code changes every 3 years old timer ???


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> Wow 70, when was the last time you skated?


 Probably when I was about fifteen. :laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Cletis said:


> What do you think about all these pesky code changes every 3 years old timer ???



Code changes?????????


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I wired three houses using GE RR7 relay system and the old pushbuttons for my 1st employer in Hawaii. They are all in the town of Laie. I have no idea how they are holding up, but what I have seen plenty in the other old houses I ran across using that method, is the bell wire that we used to use degrades and all the insulation cracks and falls off. Screws up the system big time. We used to do tons of service fixing up the failed relay systems that the old boss originally installed....


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> The wiring is nice and neat! :laughing:


This was a method of light switching that was popular in the late 50's early 60's. There is a power source to a set of relays and a line voltage switch leg to every light. The 18/2 goes to a mud ring which is your touch relat wall switch. When you touch the switch, the relay closes the line voltage to the light. A gutter placed in an attic is one method of junction. I have seen 2X5 foot panels in closets that contain so may relays and switch legs, neatly tie-wrapped and implssible to trouble shoot without taking it all apart. Locating the bad relay is always the hardest issue because they all look like a hornets nest of wires. The relay heads stick out of the gutter cover with 18/2 attached to the back. I began trouble sgooting on them in 1971. The reason for them was to be able to turn on any light in the house from any location using 18/2 Bell wire. The trouble is, when the relay goes bad, and they always do, figuring it out, especially in a tight and uncomfortable position in an attic can cause you to want to rip it all out and rewire everything with line voltage. I have several neighborhoods in San Diego that use this system. When thos customers call me to say the lights are out, I warn them of what it will take to fix them properly. There is only one supply house here that carries the relays and touch plate switches. I always recommend that they eliminate that system and rewire line voltage. If you've never worked on this stuff before, you are in for some serious concentration. You can bypass the relay by finding your source of 120, then touch it to each 14/2 switch leg until your problem light comes on. Many times, the relays will be labeled as to which light they operate, more times not. San Diego Electric Supply carries them. If you have any questions, feel free. I'm into my 40th year and I still wear my tools, mainly because I still love what I do. I don't know it all, but I've seen a lot of stuff my younger guys have never seen before. We specialize in older homes and that is our biggest recource of calls.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

yrman said:


> This was a method of light switching that was popular in the late 50's early 60's. There is a power source to a set of relays and a line voltage switch leg to every light. The 18/2 goes to a mud ring which is your touch relat wall switch. When you touch the switch, the relay closes the line voltage to the light. A gutter placed in an attic is one method of junction. I have seen 2X5 foot panels in closets that contain so may relays and switch legs, neatly tie-wrapped and implssible to trouble shoot without taking it all apart. Locating the bad relay is always the hardest issue because they all look like a hornets nest of wires. The relay heads stick out of the gutter cover with 18/2 attached to the back. I began trouble sgooting on them in 1971. The reason for them was to be able to turn on any light in the house from any location using 18/2 Bell wire. The trouble is, when the relay goes bad, and they always do, figuring it out, especially in a tight and uncomfortable position in an attic can cause you to want to rip it all out and rewire everything with line voltage. I have several neighborhoods in San Diego that use this system. When thos customers call me to say the lights are out, I warn them of what it will take to fix them properly. There is only one supply house here that carries the relays and touch plate switches. I always recommend that they eliminate that system and rewire line voltage. If you've never worked on this stuff before, you are in for some serious concentration. You can bypass the relay by finding your source of 120, then touch it to each 14/2 switch leg until your problem light comes on. Many times, the relays will be labeled as to which light they operate, more times not. San Diego Electric Supply carries them. If you have any questions, feel free. I'm into my 40th year and I still wear my tools, mainly because I still love what I do. I don't know it all, but I've seen a lot of stuff my younger guys have never seen before. We specialize in older homes and that is our biggest recource of calls.


This method is still used, mostly commercially.


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> This method is still used, mostly commercially.


Yep, see those panels a lot. Google GE TLC lighting control, you can still get the rr7's and a bunch of parts, even a panel to put them in. I had a pic on here a while back of a 12 position switch from the 60's that was used in a retail shop for that very system. Beside a relay going now and then, they're actually pretty reliable in a commercial setting. In an attic or cramped basement, though, I think that might be a different story-to work on, anyway.


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## yrman (Jun 12, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> This is in the attic of a house, he thinks it was some sort of DIY'ers home automation attempt. All the power comes in through the bottom into the boxes and out through something like 18 AWG 3 wire strands. He said these go to all the light switches in the house and there is one switch downstairs that turns all the lights on or off and all other switches operate normally.
> 
> What is this monstrosity??
> 
> Be happy that it's not all in one big long gutter box. That's what I usually find. There should be a transformer for each section for your relays, where you will find a hot feed. You could bypass the relay, connect the switch leg directly to the hot feed in the relay panel, and that will turn the light on. Then fish a 14/2 switch leg from the light to the mud ring where the touch plate is and replace it with a box and switch. That's just one quick fix....


Be happy that it's not all in one big long gutter box. That's what I usually find. There should be a transformer for each section for your relays, where you will find a hot feed. You could bypass the relay, connect the switch leg directly to the hot feed in the relay panel, and that will turn the light on. Then fish a 14/2 switch leg from the light to the mud ring where the touch plate is and replace it with a box and switch. That's just one quick fix....


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