# Basement rebar ground



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Does a residential house with a basement (concrete floor) require a ground to be ran to the rebar? I'm guessing it has rebar in it. House was framed last year and has been sitting. I just got the plans to bid wiring it and did not see any exposed rebar to ground to when I walked through it.
I'm thinking it has to be and whoever poured the basement didn't know.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Rebar in located in the bottom of a _foundation or footing_ in direct contact with earth has to be used as an electrode in certain circumstances.

250.52 (A) (3)


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

If it's present, it needs to be bonded, however, if you can't locate any exposed re-bar to tie into, then call the AHJ and ask about an exception; I don't see anything wrong with just driving some ground rods and using the water pipe to satisfy 250.50.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I have no idea if it is present. I got a call in to ask if it would of been required. The person that built this house thinks he is a builder but he has no GC license.I don't do a lot of new construction so I don't know if rebar is used everytime.
The last building I did I ran 20ft #4 in and they poured the concrete over it.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I have no idea if it is present. I got a call in to ask if it would of been required. The person that built this house thinks he is a builder but he has no GC license.I don't do a lot of new construction so I don't know if rebar is used everytime.
> The last building I did I ran 20ft #4 in and they poured the concrete over it.


If you can't see any re-bar, I'd say the ahj will give you some slack. God-forbid you need to start chipping into the foundation to find something to tie into, then you could be on the hook to fix it later.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> If you can't see any re-bar, I'd say the ahj will give you some slack. God-forbid you need to start chipping into the foundation to find something to tie into, then you could be on the hook to fix it later.


Lets hope so. So am I right in my thinking that any new house/building should have rebar in the foundation/footing and that it needs to be grounded?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

One of the things I don't like in NC is their approach to the rebar. They do not require the EC to use it since it is not available when the EC gets to the job. So I would say it did not need to have the rebar tied to the gec system. BTW, the concrete floor has nothing to do with this. The gec must be in the footing not the slab.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'll put my inspector hat on for a second...

"Your GC'S lack of knowledge is not my problem, if there is rebar that qualifies as an electrode in there you are going to use it, how that happens is none of my business" 

Just because somebody screwed up does not give you a free violation pass.



FWIW around here I have never seen rebar in a resi footing.

So the real question is whether or not there is any rebar to begin with. If you see none and the builder says there is none then forget about it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> One of the things I don't like in NC is their approach to the rebar. They do not require the EC to use it since it is not available when the EC gets to the job. So I would say it did not need to have the rebar tied to the gec system. BTW, the concrete floor has nothing to do with this. The gec must be in the footing not the slab.


Hey Denis, isn't that why the NEC wording was changed from " if available" to "present" ?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Lets hope so. So am I right in my thinking that any new house/building should have rebar in the foundation/footing and that it needs to be grounded?


if it's present it needs to be used.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> If you can't see any re-bar, I'd say the ahj will give you some slack. God-forbid you need to start chipping into the foundation to find something to tie into, then you could be on the hook to fix it later.


Here if it was 'overlooked' or forgotten about just a year ago you might be chipping.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> One of the things I don't like in NC is their approach to the rebar. They do not require the EC to use it since it is not available when the EC gets to the job.


Here they put the GCs on notice that if they plan to have rebar in the footing they will have to get an EC on the job and an inspection.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Hey Denis, isn't that why the NEC wording was changed from " if available" to "present" ?


I believe so but, as good as NC is about code, they dropped the ball on this one. IMO


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Here they put the GCs on notice that if they plan to have rebar in the footing they will have to get an EC on the job and an inspection.


That is what I do.... All my jobs have a #4 to the rebar if it is new construction. I have also done it when I only had an addition.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Here they put the GCs on notice that if they plan to have rebar in the footing they will have to get an EC on the job and an inspection.


same here commercially I believe..


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> One of the things I don't like in NC is their approach to the rebar. They do not require the EC to use it since it is not available when the EC gets to the job. So I would say it did not need to have the rebar tied to the gec system. BTW, the concrete floor has nothing to do with this. The gec must be in the footing not the slab.


 
So if they used rebar in the footing it has to be bonded. But you are not required to use rebar when you pour a footing and they most likely didn't so I should be ok right.(As long as rebar was not used). Thanks guys


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> So if they used rebar in the footing it has to be bonded. But you are not required to use rebar when you pour a footing and they most likely didn't so I should be ok right.(As long as rebar was not used). Thanks guys


Every job in our area has rebar. I must say I have never seen a footing without rebar around here. Again re-read my post. Ron Chilton, NC State Inspector, and the power that be have decided that it is too difficult to enforce so they do not require it. Your county may require it-- I don't know.


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## Old man (Mar 24, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Every job in our area has rebar. I must say I have never seen a footing without rebar around here. Again re-read my post. Ron Chilton, NC State Inspector, and the power that be have decided that it is too difficult to enforce so they do not require it. Your county may require it-- I don't know.


As far as I know that is the way it is all over NC. If not AHJD should have a grounding rebar inspection just as you would with a slab or footing inspection by the electrical inspector pior to the pouring on the footing.


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## Two-headed boy (Apr 21, 2008)

I have had problems with this also. Told the contractor to leave a peice of rebar to attach to and even paint it green and come back to rough in and it is gone. Our AHJ makes us chip away until we can find some rebar wich drives me nuts. If I were buying a brand new house and someone was chipping into my foundation I would not be happy.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'll put my inspector hat on... A CEE is not present. There was not a CEE inspection. There is no way to know that any rebar you might be able to hit meets the definition of a CEE. The code does not require a CEE to be installed. Even if the electrician found rebar to tie to I would not pass it as a CEE. Rebar in the foundation does not qualify in and of itself as a CEE. 

I would like to see a building code requirement for installing a CEE along with a NEC requirement. Would make our job much easier.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I'll put my inspector hat on... A CEC is not present. There was not a CEC inspection. There is no way to know that any rebar you might be able to hit meets the definition of a CEC. The code does not require a CEC to be installed. Even if the electrician found rebar to tie to I would not pass it as a CEC. Rebar in the foundation does not qualify in and of itself as a CEC.
> 
> I would like to see a building code requirement for installing a CEC along with a NEC requirement. Would make our job much easier.


First off, it is CEE -- concrete encase electrode. 

The only time one would make an EC cut into a footer is if it was a new install and it the #4 was neglected. The inspectors would know if the rebar, if any, were put in and would meet the definition of CEE.

The idea is not to make someone dig into a 20 year old foundation and connect to the rebar.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Whoops! : )


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