# Installing breaker in a live panel



## sparkyboys

first, i could not find the accident part.
second, if installing a new breaker at the switch gear it is always best to have shut down.

but if the breaker is in a feeder panel, there should be no problem doing it live, but you can always shut that one panel down.


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## RePhase277

Accidents happen. If we followed the DoE's prescription, we'd never get any work done for filling out paper work. It isn't always as simple as shutting the whole thing down to install a breaker. If proper precautions are exercised, we can minimize the risks. But ours is a trade where there will never be 0 risk. The nanny-state that we are becoming is quite ridiculous. By similar reasoning, we'd never have went to the moon or broken the sound barrier. Mr. Edison and Mr. Tesla would have been arrested and charged.


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## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> Accidents happen. If we followed the DoE's prescription, we'd never get any work done for filling out paper work.


So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


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## william1978

Zog said:


> So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


 0, Everyone goes home at the end of the day.


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## Jeff000

Zog said:


> So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


I bet more die driving to work then at work. 

That really has nothing to do with anything, just making a point. Sometimes **** happens, you can reduce and control the risks but at the end of the day sometimes **** just happens. Most of the time it is preventable, but so is pretty much every workplace death/injury in any industry. 
Working on live electrical devices is an occupational hazard of being an Electrician.


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## Bob Badger

Jeff000 said:


> I bet more die driving to work then at work.
> 
> That really has nothing to do with anything, just making a point. Sometimes **** happens, you can reduce and control the risks but at the end of the day sometimes **** just happens.


The difference is for most of us there is no other way to get to work then to drive.

99.9% of the time the power can be shut off if we just forced the point.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> Working on live electrical devices is an occupational hazard of being an Electrician.


Lineman, yes. Electricians, no. OSHA rules protect electricians from working live. Most of the time the rules are ignored, but they are still there nonetheless.


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## RePhase277

Zog said:


> So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


There is no acceptable number. But how risk averse must we be before we don't even go outside? We are electricians, there is an inherent danger in the job we do. How many steel workers must die before we stop building skyscrapers? How many fingers must be lost before we ban table saws?


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## nick

well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tzga6qAaBA


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## Bob Badger

All the examples given


Going to the moon.

Working on high steel.

Cutting wood.

All them have to be done for one reason or another.


If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.

We can't bring high steel down to the ground

We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.

But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.


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## Jeff000

Peter D said:


> Lineman, yes. Electricians, no. OSHA rules protect electricians from working live. Most of the time the rules are ignored, but they are still there nonetheless.


Rules also state proper methods for working live when turning the power off isnt a viable option, like say when shutting the power off means a $500,000+ shut down. 
Is that placing a value on the life of someone? kinda, but work smart and with proper procedures and you will walk home just like any other day. 

I would also venture a guess that more electricians are injured/killed by 120/240 then any other voltage. 



Bob Badger said:


> All the examples given
> 
> 
> Going to the moon.
> 
> Working on high steel.
> 
> Cutting wood.
> 
> All them have to be done for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.
> 
> We can't bring high steel down to the ground
> 
> We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.
> 
> But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.


Many risks to anything can be easily avoided. 
The moon, well those risks are extreme and going in you know death is a very real possibility. Same with a select few other occupations.

Steel workers, I doubt there are many workers injured or killed that couldn't be easily avoided by following the safety rules. 
Same goes for cutting wood.


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## Bob Badger

Jeff000 said:


> Rules also state proper methods for working live when turning the power off isnt a viable option, like say when shutting the power off means a $500,000+ shut down.


That is entirely untrue, no where in the OSHA rules will you find anything to back that up.




> I would also venture a guess that more electricians are injured/killed by 120/240 then any other voltage.


I would say no doubt about that as many more electricians work with those voltages.







> Steel workers, I doubt there are many workers injured or killed that couldn't be easily avoided by following the safety rules.
> Same goes for cutting wood.


So your point here is if everyone followed the rules less people would be hurt?

Well thank you, that is what I have been saying. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger

I will give you a head start, maybe you can show us where it says 'if it costs to much we can do it live'



> 1910.333(a)(1)
> 
> "Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.
> 
> 
> Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.
> 
> 
> Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.
> 
> 
> Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.



And keep in mind, if you are the employer and find an excuse in the above to have your employees work hot and something does happen your excuse is going to have to both comfort the family of the injured and stand up when your getting sued. 

But I doubt I will change anyones mind.


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## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> All the examples given
> 
> 
> Going to the moon.
> Working on high steel.
> Cutting wood.
> 
> All them have to be done for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.
> We can't bring high steel down to the ground
> We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.
> 
> But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.


My point is that it is not always an option to turn off the power. Where it can be done easily, fine, let's do it. I'm not saying to never shut off the power. I'm saying there are times when it is unavoidable to work hot. We can have all the safety in the world, and we will still have situations arise where we just can't get around it.

In my opinion, it is unreasonable to think we can demand a complete shutdown of a building to change a breaker. Last year, a breaker failed feeding a transformer in an office building. All the 120 V loads were out on the first floor. I was called to fix the problem. This was a "fix it now" situation. Could I have told them to bite it, and wait til the weekend? Maybe, but they would just have called someone else. I couldn't very well shutdown the 1600 A main to change the breaker either. So I changed it live. Out and back in in 20 minutes. There was no way, or need, to wait 3 days for the weekend.


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## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> My point is that it is not always an option to turn off the power.


Of course there is, it might take planing and scheduling but darn few things can not be shut down.




> In my opinion, it is unreasonable to think we can demand a complete shutdown of a building to change a breaker


Why.

Why do you think the convenience of the buildings tenants outweighs your safety or any other electricians safety.





> Last year, a breaker failed feeding a transformer in an office building. All the 120 V loads were out on the first floor. I was called to fix the problem. This was a "fix it now" situation. Could I have told them to bite it, and wait til the weekend? Maybe, but they would just have called someone else. I couldn't very well shutdown the 1600 A main to change the breaker either. So I changed it live. Out and back in in 20 minutes.


To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.

I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.

My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.
> 
> I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.
> 
> My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.


Good choice Bob. :thumbsup: 

The youtube video you posted on MH Forum of the guy racking in the breaker and faulting is a graphic reminder of what will happen if something goes wrong in a panelboard like that.


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## RePhase277

This thread is too funny:laughing:. I'll catch back up when I get done changing my oil. I have to remove the battery, drain the gas tank, bleed the fuel lines, remove the spark plugs, and chock the tires first, so it will take a while, but I'll check back in.


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## user4818

InPhase277 said:


> This thread is too funny:laughing:.


I'm curious to know what you think is funny about this topic, because it's really going over my head. :blink:


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## user4818

Peter D said:


> I'm curious to know what you think is funny about this topic, because it's really going over my head. :blink:


Never mind...silly me. I found what's so funny. This is absolutely hilarious: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iClXrd50Z8

I couldn't stop laughing.


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## blueheels2

So where do we draw the line? I work stuff hot all the time and for a long time I have assumed that it is a hazard that is inherent to the trade. However, after this site and MH's site I have really started to rethink this throughout the past year. Bob would you have worked that job at the University if you had proper arc flash protection or does it even exist. Not being a smart ass just really wondering what is the right thing to do?


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## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> The youtube video you posted on MH Forum of the guy racking in the breaker and faulting is a graphic reminder of what will happen if something goes wrong in a panelboard like that.


That would be this one.

Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


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## RePhase277

Peter D said:


> I'm curious to know what you think is funny about this topic, because it's really going over my head. :blink:


What's funny is that some of us are acting like no one ever has to install a breaker in a live panel. Ever. Maybe from the sofa that is the case, but out in the field, it just ain't so. Again, if a complete shutdown is possible, great. There are several instances of critical systems that cannot be shut down while repairing yet other critical systems. This is a fact of life. 

But I am an adult, and I know the risks of the job that I have chosen as my career. If I choose to snap a breaker into a panel, I will. I would NOT, however, order or require an employee to, say, rack in a breaker like that fella that got flashed.

Show of hands: how many of us have worked in a live panel?


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## user4818

blueheels2 said:


> Bob would you have worked that job at the University if you had proper arc flash protection or does it even exist. Not being a smart ass just really wondering what is the right thing to do?


I would be willing to bet the available fault current in that situation is too high for PPE. The only option is a shutdown anyway, because there is no legit reason (by OSHA) to do that job live.


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## user4818

InPhase277 said:


> But I am an adult, and I know the risks of the job that I have chosen as my career. If I choose to snap a breaker into a panel, I will. I would NOT, however, order or require an employee to, say, rack in a breaker like that fella that got flashed.


If you want to mess around in live 480 volt panels, or even 208/120 panels, you go right ahead. 

Getting 3rd degree burns or shocked so the arts and crafts aisle at WalMart can stay lit is totally worth it.


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## Bob Badger

blueheels2 said:


> Bob would you have worked that job at the University if you had proper arc flash protection or does it even exist. Not being a smart ass just really wondering what is the right thing to do?


I had some gear in my truck but honestly I doubt that there was any acceptable level of protection in that situation.

I do not know how to calculate fault current but I know enough that when you have a 4000 amp panel board fed with bus duct from transformer located just a few feet away that the fault current is not something I want to experience.

The breaker was held to the bus bars with 3/8" bolts, two where in fine condition one was severely overheated and brittle. I had no doubt it would start falling apart when a wrench was put to it. Sure enough the bolt fell apart and pieces dropped down through the panel, luckily noting shorted, the in house guys had just gloves, no other safety gear.

I am not saying I have not done hot work, or even that I never break the rules now. But as I learn more about what can happen, as I realize my kids count on me, as a 23 year old father in the company was killed by working live, as I see more videos of how bad things can go .... I am changing my work habits.


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## blueheels2

Yeah I got a two year old I just put to bed and I would like to keep it that way.


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## Frasbee

I would like Jeff and Bob Badger to review the differences between "then" and "than".


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## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Show of hands: how many of us have worked in a live panel?


My hand is raised and I bet all others are as well.

But the point would be what?

As long as we all keep saying 'Yes I will risk my life for the bean counters' it will keep happening.

Instead of thinking 'I am manly I work hot' how about we act manly and say 'No, your convenience is not worth more then my safety?'

If my working live would save a life I would jump right in and do it, but that does not happen, we are not soldiers, cops or firemen.


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## Bob Badger

Frasbee said:


> I would like Jeff and Bob Badger to review the differences between "then" and "than".



Deal with it, it is one of my many short comings.


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> As long as we all keep saying 'Yes I will risk my life for the bean counters' it will keep happening.
> 
> Instead of thinking 'I am manly I work hot' how about we act manly and say 'No, your convenience is not worth more then my safety?'


You know, that's a really good point. Caving in to the pressure (from wherever it's coming from) and working live is actually the opposite of manliness. "Manliness" would be saying, as you pointed out, "No, we will do it my way."


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## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> Deal with it, it is one of my many short comings.


Yes, that list is pretty long. :whistling2: :jester:

Wait a sec, I thought you were perfect?


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## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> My hand is raised and I bet all others are as well.
> 
> But the point would be what?
> 
> As long as we all keep saying 'Yes I will risk my life for the bean counters' it will keep happening.
> 
> Instead of thinking 'I am manly I work hot' how about we act manly and say 'No, your convenience is not worth more then my safety?'
> 
> If my working live would save a life I would jump right in and do it, but that does not happen, we are not soldiers, cops or firemen.


No point, really, just wanted to see how many would pull the holier-than-thou and say they hadn't. I understand where you are coming from, and I cannot stress enough that I agree by and large. And it has nothing to do, at on my part, with being manly.

Would I put a 350 A breaker into a 5000 A switch gear with nearly unlimited fault current available? Not me. Would I bolt a 20 A breaker into a hot panel to keep the lights on in the arts and crafts aisle at Wal Mart? Sure. I have done it many times. That doesn't mean the next time I won't burn my face off. However, I've accepted that risk. Working carefully and skillfully the risk is minimal.


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## Zog

My hand is up too, and I am the safety nazi. But just because I (we) have done something stupid in the past does not mean we should keep doing so. 

Arc flash is something that we just began to understand a few years ago, 10 years ago it was just a hazard of the job because:
1. We didnt know how to calulate the risk levels
2. PPE did not exist to protect the workers
3. Remote racking and remote operators did not exist
4. Standards and OSHA laws * requiring * us to either turn it off or fill out an EEWP did not exist
5. Laws for employers to properly train us on recognizing and avioding the hazards did not exist
6. We were just plain dumb about it and accepted the 2,000 arc flash victims that were sent to burn centers in the US every year. 

Now most of us have the training, PPE, and general good sense to play by the new rules. Others, well some old dogs just can not learn new tricks. 

But, those who think it is worth the risk need to go visit a burn victim in a burn center, it is hell on earth, I have been there too many times, once was to visit my 18 month old girl that had a severe burn accident. Spent the next 3 months "debreeding" her in the bathtub 3 times a day with what was basically bleach and a brillo pad. That put my family through hell and no one should ever have to go through that. 

Arc flash accidents are easily avoidable, anyone that takes the risk is either uneducated on the subject, or just plain stupid. I can fix the uneducated part, but I cant fix stupid.


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## nick

Well if you look at the yearly reports on electrical related deaths in the usa and break it down most are in the work place . Now that meaning by tools, accidental contact , not a electrician installing a breaker .

But that said electricians not linemen most electrical related electrical shocks or deaths were lower voltages and related to general wiring . Ive been in the trade over 35 years and have worked hot ! Now in the last 10 years we dont do it hot . And in my time ive been shocked bad , and have seen two electricians die at diffent jobs though the years and also one burnt so bad he can never work agian . lots of people though the years in constuction die few from electrical shock but you dont forget it ever . Take care be safe


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## Speedy Petey

Bob Badger said:


> Instead of thinking 'I am manly I work hot' how about we act manly and say 'No, your convenience is not worth more then my safety?'





Peter D said:


> You know, that's a really good point. Caving in to the pressure (from wherever it's coming from) and working live is actually the opposite of manliness. "Manliness" would be saying, as you pointed out, "No, we will do it my way."


Nope, sorry. I don't buy this argument. 
Don't try and use the machismo or manliness angle on this one. It simply don't fly. It has NOTHING to do with manliness.
It's not like the last words of a guy racking a 3-phase 480v breaker were: _"Hey guys. Watch this!"_

I will say, I understand all points in this thread, but InPhase is more in line with the real world, and Bob and Peter are more inline with the perfect world.


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## Zog

Bob Badger said:


> Of course there is, it might take planing and scheduling but darn few things can not be shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why.
> 
> Why do you think the convenience of the buildings tenants outweighs your safety or any other electricians safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.
> 
> I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.
> 
> My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.


That is a pretty bad situation, based on the 4000A main I would guess that transformer was about 3000kVA 13.8kv/480V, which has an impedance of around 5% which would give you about 72,171A of fault current. But that is not the bad part, because that breaker was in the panel, it is protected by the main breaker, which 95% of the time does not have INST protection due to coordination issues. ST is the fatest trip it will have, so lets assume a normal STD setting of 0.3 Sec at 600%. 

Using the 70E equations you would have had an Ei of around 52.6 cal/cm2, which is above the 40 cal/cm2 limit that is considered survivable. 

You made a wise choice.


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## Bob Badger

Speedy Petey said:


> Nope, sorry. I don't buy this argument.
> Don't try and use the machismo or manliness angle on this one. It simply don't fly. It has NOTHING to do with manliness.


It should not but it does.

Or was I the only one that liked to be the go to guy for live work? I doubt that I am that unique.


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## nick

Well Zog we do agree with you if it can be shut down it will be , here is a example of not shutting down a semiconductor plant like HP if you shut them down its costing one million dollars per hour in production do you work it hot or do you walk ? Option get the best ppe and tools needed and perfrom the work . and do it safely


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## Bob Badger

Zog said:


> But that is not the bad part, because that breaker was in the panel, it is protected by the main breaker, which 95% of the time does not have INST protection due to coordination issues. ST is the fatest trip it will have, so lets assume a normal STD setting of 0.3 Sec at 600%.


A little more info. The gear was old, the breaker came from some used breaker company, I do not recall the panel manacturer but it was basiclly a MLO panel fed with bus bars from Allis-Charmers 13.8 KV gear.

The _reason they gave me for not being able to shut it off_ was the switch in the Allis-Charmers gear was giving them trouble. :001_huh: 



> Using the 70E equations you would have had an Ei of around 52.6 cal/cm2, which is above the 40 cal/cm2 limit that is considered survivable.


Yeah, even then (about 5 years ago) I had enough sense to figure that.


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## Bob Badger

nick said:


> here is a example of not shutting down a semiconductor plant like HP if you shut them down its costing one million dollars per hour in production do you work it hot or do you walk ?


They work the line 24/7 365 days, no down time at all to schedule work? That is amazing, that must be some great machinery they have there.


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## user4818

Speedy Petey said:


> I will say, I understand all points in this thread, but InPhase is more in line with the real world, and Bob and Peter are more inline with the perfect world.



Not one time did I say I was working in a perfect world, or that I have never done live work.

I've seen enough arc flash burn pictures, watched enough arc flash videos on youtube, and participated in enough forum discussions to be aware of the incredible danger of live work. Knowledge is power, and I've empowered myself to stay out of the danger of live work.

Everyone makes their own decisions with the knowledge they have. If you know the hazards and still choose to ignore them, fine with me. But there are very real costs and consequences if something goes wrong. And I would be more than willing to safely say that injuries, death, cost of damage to electrical equipment, lost time, etc from an accident will always cost more than scheduling a shutdown.


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## Jeff000

Bob Badger said:


> That would be this one.
> 
> Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


fawk!!!
But I have to say, wtf was he thinking?



InPhase277 said:


> Show of hands: how many of us have worked in a live panel?


Working in a live house panel, and working in a live MCC panel are a little different too. 
I have no issues doing live work in 120 panels, hell even 347 depending what I am doing. But something like the guy in the video above I would tell anyone saying I couldn't turn it off to pound sand. 
That said I have no problems metering high voltage/amperage equipment, but thats a little different.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> I have no issues doing live work in 120 panels, hell even 347 depending what I am doing.


347 will have 600 volts between phases. Extremely bad idea to work on 600 volts live. :no:


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## nick

Bob Badger said:


> They work the line 24/7 365 days, no down time at all to schedule work? That is amazing, that must be some great machinery they have there.


Well yes they run round the clock with some parts of the process but then they also do shut downs for testing and maint & repair time but breakers dont wait for them special days Bob .


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## william1978

Bob Badger said:


> That would be this one.
> 
> Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


  WOW


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## acmax

Bob Badger said:


> That would be this one.
> 
> Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


 The utube down load is a short taken from a OSHA safety clip training film. Seen it last year still creeps me out knowing how many times I worked similar situations. PPE is not practical for many live scopes of work. Shutdown is the safest way.Try replacing an I line breaker in an SDP Panel wearing PPE. GOOD LUCK, I attempted to and found it far more difficult than I imagined. Also would never put a helper in or near these places.


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## goose134

Time and again we have been told to de-energize equipment when possible. Many times customers will INSIST that there be no shutdown. Our safety guy at the shop has a document for them to sign transferring liability to the client/ property management company. It usually changes their minds. 

I remember talking to the guy from SqD who commissioned my switchgear. He told me that there was a need to kill the service at the federal prison in Chicago. It went all the way to the top of the board of corrections and he said: "kill it." Around one in the morning, service was killed, breaker was replaced, service back on. My point? If you can kill the power to a federal prison in the middle of downtown Chicago for an hour, there is no compelling reason you can't kill just about any service out there. IMHO


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## Speedy Petey

Peter D said:


> Not one time did I say I was working in a perfect world, or that I have never done live work.


Man. Go back and re-read what I wrote. See the words: _"... in line with ..."_ ?


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## user4818

Speedy Petey said:


> Man. Go back and re-read what I wrote. See the words: _"... in line with ..."_ ?


Yes, I see that....just semantics in my opinion. I had a point to make anyway.


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## acmax

Electricity sits and waits to kill you,maybe not now but first time you let your guard down. Today even the smallest arc on a job site during an install creates a 3 page report. Last company I worked for required it. Or You could be fired.Also promted a trip to the QC manager and he was **s.


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## IMM_Doctor

*Can't shut the power off?*



nick said:


> Well Zog we do agree with you if it can be shut down it will be , here is a example of not shutting down a semiconductor plant like HP if you shut them down its costing one million dollars per hour in production do you work it hot or do you walk ? Option get the best ppe and tools needed and perfrom the work . and do it safely


Zog,

Thank you for the link to the Arc-Flash incident report here on this forum, and on the other one. Knowledge is power.

One point to note, not yet mentioned in this thread, but I have seen it in others. Many responses to this thread have indicated that they assume the risk of working hot to enable the customer to continue some uninterruptable supply of electrical power to manufacturing or even “hospital” services.

If you REALLY look at the incident report link that ZOG attached, it strikes me as ironic. The decision was made to NOT interrupt the power to perform a minor electrical installation (15 minutes?), but once the boom happened, there was NO power for minutes, hours, days, week?, until the incident was documented, and the ENTIRE panel and its components replaced.


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## Jeff000

Bob Badger said:


> They work the line 24/7 365 days, no down time at all to schedule work? That is amazing, that must be some great machinery they have there.


In my younger years working at Ipex on the line a "scheduled maintenance" shut down happened when a catastrophic failure of a line happened. I have seen some pretty umm crafty ways of keeping said line running for as long as possible. The one line had decora switch painted orange in the middle of an extension cord spiced into the power cord of a saw (lots of tape so the water that was everywhere wouldn't short it out) as the EM stop because the actual button didn't stay up on its own for long (it was taped to stay up) so was bypassed for weeks until something else shut down the line and they were able to take the saw apart to replace the switch. 




Peter D said:


> 347 will have 600 volts between phases. Extremely bad idea to work on 600 volts live. :no:


yes, don't touch two phases. 
I use insulated tools, always wear gloves (the thin rubber palmed kevlar ones, they will protect from 120v, never tried anything more), and take my sweet time working live. And if for a second I have to question the work I will say I need the power off and it will be scheduled for a time when it effects the least amount of people.


----------



## nick

Well thats why they make these http://whsalisbury.com/arc/whatsnew.htm


And NETA http://www.powertest.org/



Ive seen lots of breakers taken out hot in industrial plants such as fruit packing plants- milk plants - pepsi plants and your big bad power plants you unrack and rack it out or in and at medium voltage or higher.
kinda a normal part of electrical work and its done everyday with no problems its designed to do that by the manufacture the electrician is required to ware protection in your video he has no protection . most today ware it .


----------



## Bob Badger

nick said:


> Well thats why they make these http://whsalisbury.com/arc/whatsnew.htm
> 
> 
> And NETA http://www.powertest.org/


No, not really.

Those items of PPE are for doing the live work that is allowed which is pretty much limited to troubleshooting.

You, like many, many others are under the impression that once you have suited up you are allowed to do any hot work that you want to. That is false.

The following two paragraphs list the only OSHA allowed reasons for working hot unless your a lineman.



> Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.
> 
> 
> Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.


Can you show me where money is mentioned?

OSHA does not care about money until they pass out fines.





> Ive seen lots of breakers taken out hot in industrial plants such as fruit packing plants- milk plants - pepsi plants and your big bad power plants you unrack and rack it out or in and at medium voltage or higher.


I have seen many things as well but what does any of that have to do with the rules that I have posted.


Look, I don't mean to be coming of as preachy and I am far from perfect, I am sure I will still snap a breaker into a residential panel hot but that is far different then what this thread is about.




> kinda a normal part of electrical work and its done everyday with no problems


Until there is a problem, then you in a burn ward getting your skin peeled off ......... 

Work how you want, your a big boy and I can't control what you do, but to me it makes good sense to try to avoid getting skinned.


----------



## TOOL_5150

I read that PDF file Zog posted. Man that really hits home if you read the whole thing - its almost like I was there watching it happen. The electrician had no intention on going to the hospital that day - but he did. 

I am sure looking back on it - he would have rather shut the panel power off, install the breaker, and power it back up. 

Just because you are willing to do what some people wont, doesnt make you a better electrician. In fact, Working in panels like that while energized is stupid - accidents will happpen, maybe next time is your turn.

~Matt


----------



## Zog

goose134 said:


> Time and again we have been told to de-energize equipment when possible. Many times customers will INSIST that there be no shutdown. Our safety guy at the shop has a document for them to sign transferring liability to the client/ property management company. It usually changes their minds.


Exactly! That is the whole point of an EEWP, to make someone sign thier name saying there is no other way to do it, they always change thier minds when they see that form. 



goose134 said:


> I remember talking to the guy from SqD who commissioned my switchgear. He told me that there was a need to kill the service at the federal prison in Chicago. It went all the way to the top of the board of corrections and he said: "kill it." Around one in the morning, service was killed, breaker was replaced, service back on. My point? If you can kill the power to a federal prison in the middle of downtown Chicago for an hour, there is no compelling reason you can't kill just about any service out there. IMHO


Great post, I run into similar situations all the time, shut down automotive production lines, shutdown arc furnaces in steel mills, etc..


----------



## dawgs

Electricians are like snake tamers, turn the power off and its like working with non poisonous snakes, working hot is like working with poisonous snakes. Like the snake tamer we are cautious and some what compfortable doing so. But all snake tamers get bitten at least once no matter how careful they are. I prefer non poisonous snakes.


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> Look, I don't mean to be coming of as preachy and I am far from perfect, I am sure I will still snap a breaker into a residential panel hot but that is far different then what this thread is about.



What a second, Bob. I didn't see an exemption in the OSHA rules you posted for residential panels. A 120/240 100 A panel can still burn your face off and leave you in the burn unit. Why would you put up all these red flags about _ever_ working in a hot panel, then turn around and say you would still work in a hot panel?

The difference between a 240 panel and a 480 panel is the explosive energy available. However, the potential for accidents doesn't change. If you say it is not OK to work in a hot 480 V panel, but it is OK to work in a hot 240 V residential panel, then that is a direct contradiction. Accidents don't care what the voltage is, they happen when they happen.


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> What a second, Bob. I didn't see an exemption in the OSHA rules you posted for residential panels. A 120/240 100 A panel can still burn your face off and leave you in the burn unit. Why would you put up all these red flags about _ever_ working in a hot panel, then turn around and say you would still work in a hot panel?
> 
> The difference between a 240 panel and a 480 panel is the explosive energy available. However, the potential for accidents doesn't change. If you say it is not OK to work in a hot 480 V panel, but it is OK to work in a hot 240 V residential panel, then that is a direct contradiction. Accidents don't care what the voltage is, they happen when they happen.


Voltages are misleading, would you expect a larger arc flash potential on a typical 480V system or a 13.8kV system?


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> Voltages are misleading, would you expect a larger arc flash potential on a typical 480V system or a 13.8kV system?


You missed the point completely. An accident doesn't care what the voltage is. Do you think that an accident is hiding in the bushes waiting for you to work on a 480 V system? If you go thumping an OSHA manual about how you are never to work on a live system, it should not depend on the voltage. Don't tell me I'm crazy for snapping a breaker into a 480 panel, then turn around and say it is perfectly fine to do it in a 120/240 residential panel.

If you can't do it, you can't do it. A 480 V blast has 4 times the explosive potential of a 240 V blast. So what? Either way, you are going to the hospital. That accident isn't going to choose not to jump out and get you just because you are in a residential panel.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> What a second, Bob. I didn't see an exemption in the OSHA rules you posted for residential panels.


Your right there are no exceptions, all I am doing is being honest with you and the others here. Would you want me to lie to you and say I always follow the rules when that is simply untrue? I consider myself to have integrity and I am not going to give that up just so you guys think I never have worked hot.




> A 120/240 100 A panel can still burn your face off and leave you in the burn unit.


It sure can ......... depending on the available fault current. The fault current at most single family dwelling units is pretty low and the PPE required is often minimal.

But I am starting to make excuses so again your right, I should not do that either.




> Why would you put up all these red flags about _ever_ working in a hot panel,


Show me where I said that I have never or will never work on a hot panel. I gave an example where I have refused to.



> The difference between a 240 panel and a 480 panel is the explosive energy available.


Again, it is really not the voltage, it is the available fault current. 



> Accidents don't care what the voltage is, they happen when they happen.



Again you are correct, but I believe in small increments of change. Right now many electricians will work on anything at all live. If we can get them first to stop working on equipment with high fault currents then we could move on to the more mundane tasks like changing ballasts hot, a task that kills electricians every year.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Don't tell me I'm crazy for snapping a breaker into a 480 panel, then turn around and say it is perfectly fine to do it in a 120/240 residential panel.


No one has said it is fine, but it is often less dangerous. Now on the other side of the coin if you ever work on 208Y/120 PDUs with internal transformers the fault current can be very high.




> A 480 V blast has 4 times the explosive potential of a 240 V blast.


Depending on the available current. 



> So what?


So what? :laughing: 

Well if I was going to get punched in the face I would rather the punch was 4 times less powerful. :laughing:


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> You missed the point completely. An accident doesn't care what the voltage is. Do you think that an accident is hiding in the bushes waiting for you to work on a 480 V system? If you go thumping an OSHA manual about how you are never to work on a live system, it should not depend on the voltage. Don't tell me I'm crazy for snapping a breaker into a 480 panel, then turn around and say it is perfectly fine to do it in a 120/240 residential panel.


No I got that point and agree with you 100%, anything >50V needs to be worked on de-energized per OSHA and 70E rules with a few exceptions, testing and T/S, or if the live work can be justified an EEWp needs to be completed. 



InPhase277 said:


> If you can't do it, you can't do it. A 480 V blast has 4 times the explosive potential of a 240 V blast.


Prove that, you can't because voltage has little to do with the arc flash hazard. You didn't answer my question but just spewed off an untrue fact.


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> Prove that, you can't because voltage has little to do with the arc flash hazard. You didn't answer my question but just spewed off an untrue fact.


An untrue fact? You apparently aren't familiar with the fact that current doubles for the same resistance if you double the voltage, therefore the amount of energy released is the square of the change in voltage. 

Let's assume we have two power sources with virtually unlimited supply current. One has a potential of 240 V, and the other 480 V. If I bridge the terminals of the 240 V source with a screwdriver, the amount of current that flows through the screwdriver is 240/SD resistance = n. If I bridge the 480 terminals a similar screwdriver, the amount of current that flows is 480/SD resistance = 2n.

The amount of power in the first instance is 240n. The amount of power in the second instance is 2(480n) = 960n

960n/240n = 4....... 4 TIMES THE ORIGINAL ENERGY.

Of course we are making the assumption that we have a very large current source, but for all intents and purposes, it is pretty close.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Let's assume we have two power sources with virtually unlimited supply current. One has a potential of 240 V, and the other 480 V. If I bridge the terminals of the 240 V source with a screwdriver, the amount of current that flows through the screwdriver is 240/SD resistance = n. If I bridge the 480 terminals a similar screwdriver, the amount of current that flows is 480/SD resistance = 2n.


That is a ridiculous example, seeing as current is the major factor and you have decided it is 'virtually unlimited' you have made the example pointless.


Is trying to get people to work safer a bad thing? :001_huh:


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> An untrue fact? You apparently aren't familiar with the fact that current doubles for the same resistance if you double the voltage, therefore the amount of energy released is the square of the change in voltage.


You have got to be kidding me. Right, I dont know basic circuit equations. You obviuosly know nothing about arc flash calculations. You are talking about simple series circuit calculations, which has nothing to do with arc flash analysis. First you need to calulate the availible fault current. This will be based off the size of the transformer supplying the circuit, or what ever the source is. For a simple circuit fed froma single transformer and assuming an infinite utility source that is calulated with the following simplified formula"

Is/c= {[MVA base x 100,000]/[1.732 x V]} x {100/%Z}

Then you look at the clearing time of the upstream protective device at that level and the minimum arcing current for the class of equipment you are doing the calcs on where an arc will be self sustainable (38% of Is/c in 480V systems) and figure out that clearing time also. Then you figure out which of those 2 (We do 40 points but at least 2 are required) has the highest total amp-cycles. Which allows you to calculate your max arc power 

P=1.732 x V x Is/c x 10-6 x 0.707 x 0.707

You max arcing power is then used to calulate your arc flash boundary

AFB = 1/{2.65 x MVAbf x t) 

And then calulate your Incident Energy with this:


_EMB _
1038.7_DB_–1.4738_tA _0.0093_F _2 = [ –0.3453_F _+5.9675]​ 


Now this is the simplified 70E method, all the studies I do uses the IEEE 1584 equations which are much more complex. But the 70E method works for getting the basics across and can be done in the feild using a calculator.


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> That is a ridiculous example, seeing as current is the major factor and you have decided it is 'virtually unlimited' you have made the example pointless.


So I guess that's the difference between a real world scenario and a perfect world scenario...




> Is trying to get people to work safer a bad thing? :001_huh:


Who said that? I wish everyone could kill the power. My part in this discussion is and has been based on the fact that this isn't always the way the real world works. I would love to shut down the power on everything I work on, unfortunately I don't always have that option, and I don't always have the option of telling a customer to cram it. I work for myself, so I got to put food on the table. If I worked as a maintenance electrician in a plant or for an employer in general I probably wouldn't do alot of things.

Thank you for your concern Bob (and others). You have made very excellent points that I hope other employers here will take note of, and not put their employees in harm's way. I know I sure wouldn't ask an employee to do a job where the danger was as great as racking in that breaker.


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> You have got to be kidding me. Right, I dont know basic circuit equations. You obviuosly know nothing about arc flash calculations.


Actually I don't. But I bet you dollars to donuts that in the initial instant of contact the explosive energy generated is pretty close to what I posted. Your equations are three phase equations, but I also bet that most electricians that are involved in accidents only bridge hot to neutral/ground, or hot to hot. Unless something was damaged in the panel itself, I think it would be unlikely that all 3 phases got shorted at once.

Not many electricians are as unfortunate as the guy that racked the breaker into that bus and got killed. In that case, the arc continued until some upstream OCPD kicked or burned up. An accident like that doesn't seem likely in a regular lighting distribution board. I don't have any numbers to back that up. But how does one create a non-clearing bolted fault with a screwdriver or piece of #12? Those faults happen, flash your face and eyes and scorch your hands, then clear themselves. Not many people would bridge a connection, and continue to apply pressure as it faulted.


----------



## 1900

I was replying to an early post but I read the thread and found everything has been said already so there is no reason to rehash it.


----------



## s.kelly

InPhase277 said:


> Your equations are three phase equations, but I also bet that most electricians that are involved in accidents only bridge hot to neutral/ground, or hot to hot. Unless something was damaged in the panel itself, I think it would be unlikely that all 3 phases got shorted at once.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> I expect Zog or someone better informed will chime in and correct me if needed, but the hot to neutral can turn out fairly irrelevant. Been a while since 70E, but the arc itself will then involve the other phases in the incident. I think that Zog mentioned self sustaining arc. I am sure it does not always happen, but it can and does.
> 
> I am not arguing for either side here, but I will say if you have not had the 70E class I think it is worth the time and money just to get the information.


----------



## nick

Why werent we shocked ,

When the challenger exploded it was unexpected as a nation of workers we were not accustomed to our astronauts doing the job unsafe there just not supposed to die ! 

lets stop the space program !

We can do nothing to bring back the dead but we can act to protect the living prevention calls for a new focus on the living .
As we look at the posts remember each worker who died but thats not enough . 
They made a judgement that day also ?

Lets look at whats presented here and in our good judgement make our decision to work hot or not ! I dont like working hot but if needed and rarely done its a job ill do i guess iam old and not trained in the new high tech world of electrical work . 
You put on your gloves and you do it . Ive been shocked bad lost my hearing in one ear and no feelings in my finger tips do to a 1400 volt bad judgement call and to this day will still play with it if needed . When you fall you get back up . Take care be safe


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> Actually I don't.


So why are you debating me? 



InPhase277 said:


> But I bet you dollars to donuts that in the initial instant of contact the explosive energy generated is pretty close to what I posted.


What you posted was irrevelant in regards to arc flash, thats why I resonded with some real equations that applied to the topic instead of Ohms law"



InPhase277 said:


> Your equations are three phase equations, but I also bet that most electricians that are involved in accidents only bridge hot to neutral/ground, or hot to hot. Unless something was damaged in the panel itself, I think it would be unlikely that all 3 phases got shorted at once.


Right, most arc flash incidents start out as phase to ground but 85% of them mitigate into 3 phase events from the ionization of air from the intial phase to ground event. 



InPhase277 said:


> Those faults happen, flash your face and eyes and scorch your hands, then clear themselves. Not many people would bridge a connection, and continue to apply pressure as it faulted.


So blindness and burned hands and face is no big deal huh?

I beg you, get some training before your lack of understanding gets yoursel, or a co-worker, or another member of this forum following your advice injured (Or worse).


----------



## Zog

nick said:


> Why werent we shocked ,
> 
> When the challenger exploded it was unexpected as a nation of workers we were not accustomed to our astronauts doing the job unsafe there just not supposed to die !
> 
> lets stop the space program !


We did, for 2 years until we figured out what caused the deaths and how to prevent it from ever happening again. 



nick said:


> Ive been shocked bad lost my hearing in one ear and no feelings in my finger tips do to a 1400 volt bad judgement call and to this day will still play with it if needed . When you fall you get back up .


I think that shock did something to your ability to learn from your mistakes.



nick said:


> Take care be safe


After that last comment you may want to consider changing your signature.


----------



## 1900

Zog said:


> I beg you, get some training before your lack of understanding gets yoursel, or a co-worker, or another member of this forum following your advice injured (Or worse).


It's a miracle that he, his co-workers, and all the members of this forum made it this far without 70E training! :thumbup:


----------



## nick

Zog said:


> We did, for 2 years until we figured out what caused the deaths and how to prevent it from ever happening again.
> 
> Yes but they knew before it went up that the seals were not holding but they still made the call .
> 
> 
> 
> I think that shock did something to your ability to learn from your
> mistakes.
> 
> Actually another electrician flipped the wrong switch when two of us were making a tap .
> What i learned was dont trust anyone !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After that last comment you may want to consider changing your signature.


Zog we understand your point made but not all electrical work is safe anything can and will happen . Dont listen to me fits dont ya think ?


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> So why are you debating me?


I'm not debating you on the grounds of the physics involved with arc flash. My involvement in this thread has been to maintain that it is impossible in the real world to always shut down entire distribution systems to do something like change out a breaker. And I'm not talking about racking in a 500 A breaker, I'm talking about a 20 A snap or bolt in breaker, generally in a subfed distribution panel.



> What you posted was irrevelant in regards to arc flash, thats why I resonded with some real equations that applied to the topic instead of Ohms law"


:notworthy::clap:YAYYYY!



> Right, most arc flash incidents start out as phase to ground but 85% of them mitigate into 3 phase events from the ionization of air from the intial phase to ground event.


Well, tell me, oh 70E guru, how many shorts caused by service techs with a stray #12 cause complete panel burndown? I'd like to know, because it doesn't seem like it can be very many. Now, plowing a forklift into a panel is another story.



> So blindness and burned hands and face is no big deal huh?


See, why would you assume that I meant it that way? It is most certainly a bad thing, but situations where someone gets flashed from a stray #12 don't result in complete cascading breakdown. 



> I beg you, get some training before your lack of understanding gets yoursel, or a co-worker, or another member of this forum following your advice injured (Or worse).


First off, get off your high horse, come out of the warehouse, get some sun on your face. Maybe strap on a toolbelt, if only to remind you what it's like out in the field. I HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY ADVICE TO ANYONE ABOUT WORKING ON ENERGIZED SYSTEMS. I HAVE STATED ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS THAT I WOULD NOT REQUIRE AN EMPLOYEE TO DO SO, EVEN IF I DO SO MYSELF.

I have had 70E classes. I just haven't taken to standing on a soapbox. I have to get out there go to work. Look, common sense and a healthy respect of the risks involved goes a long way. It's usually negligence or incompetence that get people injured. On that note, I would wager that more accidents happen in LV panels due to a certain comfort level with them, not to mention the greater number of them. A tech that is scared to work in a hot HV panel will certainly be much more careful and have a greater respect for the dangers involved.


----------



## RePhase277

1900 said:


> It's a miracle that he, his co-workers, and all the members of this forum made it this far without 70E training! :thumbup:


You know the closest I've ever been to death by electricity? It wasn't in a 480 V panel, it wasn't disconnecting a live service feed, or anything that dramatic. I was kneeling down on a lady's lawn looking for a screw my foreman had dropped. I reached out and put a hand on a lamp post. It nearly killed me. I don't know how long it had me, but it was long enough. My foreman came over at some point and knocked me loose.

The lady said :"Oh yeah, that light hasn't worked in years. I was going to ask you guys about that".

Where's that covered in a manual, chowderhead?


----------



## nick

Well what did we do before Osha and 70E did we actually do electrical work ?


----------



## cmac1

this is our job,stand back,assess the situation,we are trained professionals,we know what we can and cant do.we do not need to shut down hospitals,malls or candy stores to install breakers unless necessary.


----------



## 1900

cmac1 said:


> this is our job,stand back,assess the situation,we are trained professionals,we know what we can and cant do.we do not need to shut down hospitals,malls or candy stores to install breakers unless necessary.


Yes, you do. Or so says the people who no longer work in the field and are not subject to layoff in a horrible economy if not willing to do the simple work hot.

And I'm sure someone will say something like "So you're willing to risk your life for a job?!?!". Well, the answer is YES, because I (and all of you hypocrites) risk our lives everyday when we *drive* to work. Driving is actually the most dangerous part of an electrician's day, yet you all make up excuses why you freely do such a dangerous act, but then you complain about installing a breaker...


----------



## acmax

1900 said:


> Yes, you do. Or so says the people who no longer work in the field and are not subject to layoff in a horrible economy if not willing to do the simple work hot.
> 
> And I'm sure someone will say something like "So you're willing to risk your life for a job?!?!". Well, the answer is YES, because I (and all of you hypocrites) risk our lives everyday when we *drive* to work. Driving is actually the most dangerous part of an electrician's day, yet you all make up excuses why you freely do such a dangerous act, but then you complain about installing a breaker...


When driving to work the risk is unforeseen,working a live panel is a foreseen danger.You can only get electrocuted when the powers on.But the risk is a concuss choice.And I have never meet a electrician that has not worked a live panel. Heck Sometimes removing the dead front can be the highest risk. Lets move past the old stuff . I was wrong.:thumbsup:


----------



## 1900

acmax said:


> When driving to work the risk is unforeseen,working a live panel is a foreseen danger.


EXACTLY, you proved my point.

When driving to work you can get killed out of the blue, a car could come from anywhere. I still have a limp from a drunk driver hitting me.

When working in a live panel, you know all the risks, you know what to look out for. As long as you give a quick inspection for completely loose connections that could fall out and hit you, you are completely safe from surprises. The only accident would be from fault of your own.

Knowing that, how are you getting to work on Monday?

You going to drive and be one of the hundreds of thousands of Americans that die each year in their car?


----------



## acmax

I'll be taking my sons skateboard ,I hate traffic:laughing:


----------



## 1900

Hey, doing that, or taking mass transit, or changing your job so that you can work around mass transit to get there would keep you much safer than not changing breakers in a hot panel would.

It's just the truth, no matter how depressing...

In the meantime I'm going to really stir the pot. All the people who say that 70E should be followed to the letter of the law, how do you install breakers in residences? When you have a simple job at someone's house to do and part of it is installing a breaker for a dedicated circuit, do you call the PoCo to pull the meter (following their official rules)? Because flipping the main is not enough, you are still working in a panel with live conductors/lugs and relatively high fault current.


----------



## RePhase277

1900 said:


> Hey, doing that, or taking mass transit, or changing your job so that you can work around mass transit to get there would keep you much safer than not changing breakers in a hot panel would.
> 
> It's just the truth, no matter how depressing...
> 
> In the meantime I'm going to really stir the pot. All the people who say that 70E should be followed to the letter of the law, how do you install breakers in residences? When you have a simple job at someone's house to do and part of it is installing a breaker for a dedicated circuit, do you call the PoCo to pull the meter (following their official rules)? Because flipping the main is not enough, you are still working in a panel with live conductors/lugs and relatively high fault current.


No, the meter is still hot and it is pretty close to the panel usually. I'd have them shut the grid down at the nearest substation, just to be on the safe side. But I'd do it at night to avoid any harmful UV from the sun.


----------



## RePhase277

I am watching Modern Marvels on the History Channel now. It is about Ben Franklin. What a hack! He carelessly did experiments with the largest arcs nature can muster, lightning! He didn't have to do that. He should have stayed in the house and not put himself in harm's way. His experiments were un-necessary risks. Too bad the Federal Government he helped create didn't exist yet to fine his ass!


----------



## cdnelectrician

InPhase277 said:


> No, the meter is still hot and it is pretty close to the panel usually. I'd have them shut the grid down at the nearest substation, just to be on the safe side. But I'd do it at night to avoid any harmful UV from the sun.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> I am watching Modern Marvels on the History Channel now. It is about Ben Franklin. What a hack! He carelessly did experiments with the largest arcs nature can muster, lightning! He didn't have to do that. He should have stayed in the house and not put himself in harm's way. His experiments were un-necessary risks.


Very true but also does not really compare to what we do.

You and I are not Ben Franklin,:no: we are not inventing anything new,:no: nothing we do at work is going to change the world. :no:

What we are doing is keeping the product flowing off the the line, we are keeping the lights on in the offices And things like that are important because if they go out for even a short time something bad will happen ........... er .....ah .... well ... I don't know what bad things will happen .... but I am sure something bad will happen if we interrupt the normal flow of the day. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> The difference is for most of us there is no other way to get to work then to drive.
> 
> 99.9% of the time the power can be shut off if we just forced the point.


100% of my work is done live and must be. 

Construction work in general is inherently dangerous, one of the reasons it (used to) pay well. So is driving a gas tanker or explosives. Mitigating the danger wherever and whenever possible is a noble cause. Attmpting to eliminate it... is a pipe dream.


----------



## nick

*Simulate real world conditions custer f///*

Well the transfer pump story! 

There was this transfer pump in a new semiconductor plant when new it tested fine but in florida sometimes power is off for long periods no one checked the circuit as the Engineer assigned it to a normal circuit bigg mistake !!We never check Engineers there always correct !!

When the outage day came one year later and they had 10 minutes of fuel left no transfer to belly tank lots of peoples jobs on the line and major law suits if power does not happen .

No one had a key to the support panel located inside the generator house but the lites where on so we had power there all the maintance electricians at the plant had that deer in the head lite look . 

pulled out the power from the lite circuit hot and we connected it up to the transfer pump we did it HOT didnt have time to lock out tag out didnt care but the power issue was ok now . just a fast fix to a major problem no one really cared how it got done .
If not done would have cost millions in law suits and heads would roll! Take care being safe its not done everyday .


----------



## SmithBuilt

I used to think we had to work hot also due to computers, data, etc. But being in the business to make money drove me to realize saftey will make me more money. Yes more, I bill for all the time it takes to set up a shut down, PPE, shift pay everything. I have yet to loose a job to this practice. After explaining the actual OSHA rule most people understand and have absolutly no problem with shut downs. We have a very good workers compensation rating and I also intend to keep that. I suspect one accident would erase any savings you have by working hot. 








LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> 100% of my work is done live and must be.


I have to ask why? Do you work on circuts where someones life depends on it?


----------



## 1900

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know what bad things will happen .... but I am sure something bad will happen if we interrupt the normal flow of the day. :laughing:


For starters, it might mean the EC loosing the contract or the electrical worker loosing his job. Earlier someone mentioned something about the difference between the real world and the perfect world, which one do you think we are in?


----------



## oldman

Zog said:


> So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


Zog, I used to think you were an intelligent person...but the fear mongering and the "if it saves one life, no matter the cost, it's worth it" mentality of your comment is the antithesis of everything this country was founded on...

like was said above your post, we are in an industry that is full of risk...you mitigate the risk as much as possible, but if you feel that we should protect everyone from cradle to grave, you are in the wrong industry...get into quilting or something...

additionally, your comment is akin to asking "so, when did you stop beating your wife?"....it's presumptuous and off the mark...to assume that because someone disagrees with going overboard that they are in favor of killing someone...

it's a terrible tragedy when someone gets hurt in our industry, and I don't know of any electrician or contractor that wants someone to get hurt or worse...but the argument that you put forth in your comment above is the reason that this country is losing everything...

instead of reasonable actions and precautions to limit risk, OSHA and the like have made it so time consuming and expensive that companies have decided to completely abandon dealing with their regulations and move to countries like China or Mexico where there are really no safety regulations...

one could argue that they would go there anyway, which may be true, but if the cost of operating in the US wasn't increased exponentially due to regulations to "save one life", it wouldn't be so cost effective to move an entire operation to a foreign country...

so, at the end of the day, I ask "How much time and money are you willing to spend to make sure that no one ever does so much as stub a toe, ever again, in the entire world?" and if your answer is anything other than "infinity dollars", then you sir, are a hypocrite....

edit to add: i read through most of this thread, and there were good points made...i am in no way advocating rolling through life with reckless abandon...but i stand by my point that society as a whole is becoming afraid of it's own shadow and it's detrimental to the success of this country...


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> I'm not debating you on the grounds of the physics involved with arc flash.


Sure seemed that way when you said this 



InPhase277 said:


> You apparently aren't familiar with the fact that current doubles for the same resistance if you double the voltage, therefore the amount of energy released is the square of the change in voltage.


 


InPhase277 said:


> My involvement in this thread has been to maintain that it is impossible in the real world to always shut down entire distribution systems to do something like change out a breaker.


Impossible? Really? Have you tried asking? It gets done everyday by other electricians that are not so stubborn and have decided to change the way they do things. 



InPhase277 said:


> First off, get off your high horse, come out of the warehouse, get some sun on your face. Maybe strap on a toolbelt, if only to remind you what it's like out in the field.


I get out in the field nearly everyday testing power systems. Why dont you get off your high horse and admit you need to change the ways you do electrical work. 



InPhase277 said:


> I have had 70E classes.


I would love to know where you took them and who was the instructor because you have shown absoultly no knowledge of the content. 



InPhase277 said:


> Look, common sense and a healthy respect of the risks involved goes a long way. It's usually negligence or incompetence that get people injured.


Well we finally agree on something.


----------



## Zog

cmac1 said:


> this is our job,stand back,assess the situation,we are trained professionals,we know what we can and cant do.we do not need to shut down hospitals,malls or candy stores to install breakers unless necessary.


Um, yes you do,it is the law. OSHA is very specific about this, Bob already quoted the articles in this thread.


----------



## Zog

acmax said:


> I have never meet a electrician that has not worked a live panel. Heck Sometimes removing the dead front can be the highest risk. Lets move past the old stuff . I was wrong.:thumbsup:


We all were, and now change is here. Federal requlations require our employers to ensure we follow safe work practices, to make out job safer. Why do some people fight this change?


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> so, at the end of the day, I ask "How much time and money are you willing to spend to make sure that no one ever does so much as stub a toe, ever again, in the entire world?" and if your answer is anything other than "infinity dollars", then you sir, are a hypocrite....


That question is a non-starter. Preventing injuries from arc flash are not like preventing simple toe stubbing. 3rd degree burns, maiming, and death are the usual outcome of any significant arc flash event. Nevermind the lost time and property damage. I'd say the cost of that is pretty significant. 

But, it's apparent from this thread, that risking these injuries are acceptable, an electricians willingly put themselves in this danger. Fine by me.


----------



## oldman

Zog said:


> We all were, and now change is here. Federal requlations require our employers to ensure we follow safe work practices, to make out job safer. Why do some people fight this change?


don't feel bad, i also fight seatbelt and helmet laws...


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> That question is a non-starter. Preventing injuries from arc flash are not like preventing simple toe stubbing. 3rd degree burns, maiming, and death are the usual outcome of any significant arc flash event. Nevermind the lost time and property damage. I'd say the cost of that is pretty significant.
> 
> But, it's apparent from this thread, that risking these injuries are acceptable, an electricians willingly put themselves in this danger. Fine by me.


truth be told, we rarely, if ever work live...i don't like to take unnecessary risk...i just don't believe that you can legislate safety or outlaw stupidity...


----------



## Zog

SmithBuilt said:


> I used to think we had to work hot also due to computers, data, etc. But being in the business to make money drove me to realize saftey will make me more money. Yes more, I bill for all the time it takes to set up a shut down, PPE, shift pay everything. I have yet to loose a job to this practice. After explaining the actual OSHA rule most people understand and have absolutly no problem with shut downs. We have a very good workers compensation rating and I also intend to keep that. I suspect one accident would erase any savings you have by working hot.


Exactly! I spent the last 10 years doing custom 70E training for many EC's nationwide and they all had the same fears, "If I don't do it hot I will lose the job because someone else will"

When doing follow up training for those same EC's 1 year later I would always hear the same thing you just said. Have your facts ready to present to the customer and you will get a shutdown. Show up just bitchin that the boss says you have to shut it down and you may have some problems. It is all about how you present it to the customer. Safety is good business.


----------



## Zog

Peter D said:


> That question is a non-starter. Preventing injuries from arc flash are not like preventing simple toe stubbing. 3rd degree burns, maiming, and death are the usual outcome of any significant arc flash event. Nevermind the lost time and property damage. I'd say the cost of that is pretty significant.


A recent study by Ontario Hydro showed the average cost of a serious survivable arc flash accident is $17.4 Million.


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> i just don't believe that you can legislate safety or outlaw stupidity...


I agree with that if we are talking about personal things...like the aforementioned seat belt and helmet laws. But workplace safety is another matter entirely and I am quite thankful for OSHA regulations.


----------



## JTMEYER

My first job as an electrician was at a local meat packing plant. Lets just say safety wasnt job one. I have been witness to several arc flashes, at very close proximity. A couple were my fault, a couple wern't. My partner ran a self driller through a backer plate into a 600a 480 buss bar. I thought God took my picture. I myself ground faulted the whole kill wing by changing fuses in a disconnect with a broken handle, first two went in fine so I didn't even try to look away on the last one. BOOM. That was a bad day. Hell, we used to shut off rows of 277 lights by shorting them to ground, that was just how it was done. That place had a hundred breaker panels and none were marked. If a 120v rec. went down you would spend 2 hours on the hunt. You might reset 30 or 40 breakers before the one you were looking for came back, but since you didn't know which one it was you couldn't label it. The bosses wouldn't devote two electricians to find one tripped breaker so you never knew which breaker did it. You also never knew what else you had turned back on, or why it had tripped. We even had a guy that tried to meter 4160 with a pocket meter, thought it was 480. The meter evaporated, he walked away. The company I work for now had a 70E training day a couple years ago. The lady instructor told us as dramatically as possible that when she was done we would beg our boss to follow 70E instead of resisting it. She showed us some vids of line voltage flashes, and told us that it was all household current. She used dramatization, and scare tactics. None if which does much for a room full of construction electricians. When she worked her way around to the part about the osha investigator coming to the hospital and fineing YOU PERSONALLY for the accident, and because you wern't wearing the proper ppe and clothing (including checking if you were wearing cotton or poly blend undies), she lost the whole room. I'm sure some of what she said was correct, but the way she went about it completly negated that fact. I haven't read 70E myself, maybe I should. But the info I have now makes me think that it goes way to far. I don't like seeing anybody hurt, but then again have you ever read the darwin awards?


----------



## Zog

JTMEYER said:


> The company I work for now had a 70E training day a couple years ago. The lady instructor told us as dramatically as possible that when she was done we would beg our boss to follow 70E instead of resisting it. She showed us some vids of line voltage flashes, and told us that it was all household current. She used dramatization, and scare tactics. None if which does much for a room full of construction electricians. When she worked her way around to the part about the osha investigator coming to the hospital and fineing YOU PERSONALLY for the accident, and because you wern't wearing the proper ppe and clothing (including checking if you were wearing cotton or poly blend undies), she lost the whole room. I'm sure some of what she said was correct, but the way she went about it completly negated that fact.


There are a lot of people and companies out there trying to "cash in" on the 70E, training, studies, PPE, etc... Many of them are clueless and this lady is what gives 70E training a bad name and causes some poeple to laugh it off. She had some info on a presentation that came out of a can and I am willing to bet no real world experience. 

When someone or some company is looking for any training, 70E, technical, etc... they should always ask for a resume of the instructor and a lst of references (Actually call them). Has the instructor published any white papers or trade mag articles? What experiences do they have with the subject matter. 

Look at the training programs the company offers. If they offer safety training on anything from 70E to CPR to forklift to ergonomics, it is a safe bet that they are not experts on any of those topics and you will be wasting your time and money on the training. 

The NFPA 70E has very specific requirements for the content of the training, and it includes both classroom and hands on (For some poeple, depending on thier job). Several topics must be covered and there needs to be an assesment (70E says trained and competent). After the training there may be equipment specific training required for different job titles and duties, after all that the employer is the one that makes the determination if the employee is Qualified" and for what job tasks and equipment each employee is qualified on.


----------



## Bob Badger

1900 said:


> For starters, it might mean the EC loosing the contract or the electrical worker loosing his job. Earlier someone mentioned something about the difference between the real world and the perfect world, which one do you think we are in?


I think we live in a real world and the choice as a business owner to say no to a customer is harder then me just typing it. 

That said nothing will change until we all start pushing for change. As long as the workers themselves all have this hero mentality that they should risk there safety for the good of some customer nothing will change and more electricians will be injured and killed then if we did work safer.

From my side of this, and I could be wrong, you sound like your not interested in change, you can live with it as it always has been.


----------



## Bob Badger

Nick, can I ask you to tell me what your point is when you say this?



nick said:


> Well what did we do before Osha and 70E did we actually do electrical work ?


What did we (as a trade) do? We got injured and killed. 

_What did swordsmen do before suits of armor?

What did football players do before real helmets?

What did boilers do before safety valves?

What did elevators do before the safety brakes?

What did sailors do before life vests and life boats?

What did NASCAR do before roll cages, flip up roof panels, five point harnesses, fuel cells, the HANS device, fire proof suits, gloves, masks, socks, shoes, helmets and restrictor plates? _

Point being no mater what we do in life we should be leaning from the past.

And thats enough blabbering for now....:laughing:


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> Very true but also does not really compare to what we do.
> 
> You and I are not Ben Franklin,:no: we are not inventing anything new,:no: nothing we do at work is going to change the world. :no:


Ben Franklin didn't know what he was doing was going to alter the course of history. It was a stupid move. His leyden jar battery knocked him unconscious on more than one occasion while he was playing with. What a jackleg hack. I'll never accept another $100 bill. I'll take it in all ones or twenties. Washington and Jackson, those are the real heroes.


----------



## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> Nick, can I ask you to tell me what your point is when you say this?
> 
> 
> 
> What did we (as a trade) do? We got injured and killed.
> 
> _What did swordsmen do before suits of armor?
> 
> What did football players do before real helmets?
> 
> What did boilers do before safety valves?
> 
> What did elevators do before the safety brakes?
> 
> What did sailors do before life vests and life boats?
> 
> What did NASCAR do before roll cages, flip up roof panels, five point harnesses, fuel cells, the HANS device, fire proof suits, gloves, masks, socks, shoes, helmets and restrictor plates? _


You forgot one:

_How did electricians survive before Bob Badger?_


----------



## Zog

Bob Badger said:


> _What did NASCAR do before roll cages, flip up roof panels, five point harnesses, fuel cells, the HANS device, fire proof suits, gloves, masks, socks, shoes, helmets and restrictor plates? _


Closet NASCAR fan Bob? I never would have guessed that. I am on my way to the All Star race, I can hear them practicing right now. I will b in turn 2, hope these storms pass by soon.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Ben Franklin didn't know what he was doing was going to alter the course of history. It was a stupid move. His leyden jar battery knocked him unconscious on more than one occasion while he was playing with.


OK lets think about his stupid move, he was ignorant of the danger he faced. We are much more knowledgeable about the dangers, why not act accordingly?


----------



## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> You forgot one:
> 
> _How did electricians survive before Bob Badger?_


I don't take myself anywhere near that seriously.

If I die in the next minute it will be like I never existed in this trade.


----------



## Bob Badger

Zog said:


> Closet NASCAR fan Bob?


At one time a casual fan, just trying to pick an interesting safety example and NASCAR has many.


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> Exactly! I spent the last 10 years doing custom 70E training for many EC's nationwide


Ah! It's quite clear now why you are a book thumping stump preacher. You make pretty good money at it. If I was selling Bibles, I'd be the bestest Christian in the world too.


----------



## 1900

Bob Badger said:


> From my side of this, and I could be wrong, you sound like your not interested in change, you can live with it as it always has been.


You are wrong.

I believe it was you that mentioned earlier how you used to actually want to work live, I did too when I was a first year apprentice, I think we all did. Part of it might be to feel cool, part of it is so the foreman and journeymen see that you know what you're doing and can handle the job. But reality set in quick for me after a very simple yet painful bite from a 277V lighting circuit. For the next 3 days as I layed home in agony as my entire body ached, I decided that working on live circuits really sucked and I never wanted to do it again. 

Soon after that I caved into the typical pressure and worked on live circuits where necessary, but I was much more careful and did it much less often. That's the way I continue today. 

Would I like to only work on dead circuits? You bet! But in reality, I can't see having the PoCo come and pull the meter just so I could add a breaker to a resi panel. I can't see shutting down 15 circuits that power things in a hospital that only God knows about just to make a splice in a large box.

Limiting exposure can help save a lot of injuries and deaths, but to outright ban exposure is going to far, IMO.


----------



## nick

Well i just got home from work we work on the weekends so we can get around all the safety regulations just joking . Well Bob we kinda did electrical work same as now i like to ask a question of you and Zog were is your data & documents on how many electricians die each year from working hot . 

Now not just from a accidental or chance electrical shock but a actual death from working hot .

Can you show me that meaning a electrician that was doing repair or correcting a electrical issue on a electrical project or commercial or residential electrician and during that process was electrocuted and as a result of his job being unsafe a death was the outcome of negligence .

I looked into this and found one or two but you may have a better and more accurate example of this kinda help me out iam actually interested give me a census of facts ?Best to yas


----------



## 1900

Zog said:


> A recent study by Ontario Hydro showed the average cost of a serious survivable arc flash accident is $17.4 Million.


How many of those happen a year? .5? 1?

If so, $17.4 million in Canadian money isn't too bad. 

Other the other hand, 70E is costing the customers $17.4 Billion!!! :thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I don't take myself anywhere near that seriously.
> 
> If I die in the next minute it will be like I never existed in this trade.


AFAIC, it's as if you don't even exist now. :whistling2:


----------



## Faultfinder1

nick said:


> Well i just got home from work we work on the weekends so we can get around all the safety regulations just joking . Well Bob we kinda did electrical work same as now i like to ask a question of you and Zog were is your data & documents on how many electricians die each year from working hot .
> 
> Now not just from a accidental or chance electrical shock but a actual death from working hot .
> 
> Can you show me that meaning a electrician that was doing repair or correcting a electrical issue on a electrical project or commercial or residential electrician and during that process was electrocuted and as a result of his job being unsafe a death was the outcome of negligence .
> 
> I looked into this and found one or two but you may have a better and more accurate example of this kinda help me out iam actually interested give me a census of facts ?Best to yas


I think the better question would be, "How many electricians (or anyone else) are hurt/maimed/killed every year working on NON ENERGIZED systems?" How many deaths/injuries are acceptable in this trade? 

I'd be willing to bet that those in these trades that dislike 70E are the same one's that don't mind working on live equipment. I'll even take that one step further and guess that these are the same people not wearing gloves, hard hats, or safety glasses. 


www.faultlocating.com


----------



## nick

Faultfinder1 said:


> I think the better question would be, "How many electricians (or anyone else) are hurt/maimed/killed every year working on NON ENERGIZED systems?" How many deaths/injuries are acceptable in this trade?
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that those in these trades that dislike 70E are the same one's that don't mind working on live equipment. I'll even take that one step further and guess that these are the same people not wearing gloves, hard hats, or safety glasses.
> 
> 
> www.faultlocating.com


Well our company has a 100% safety glasses -gloves and hard hats you dont work in construction on our jobs unless you do . 

They give us the gloves free and the glasses they also give us a hard hat free . 

Now that question is still not answered how many electricians actually are electrocuted each year by doing there jobs unsafe working hot . leave regulations out of the question just facts how many one ? 

Were only asking for a electrician not a factory worker or a linemen a real electrician that does electrical work you will not find any its rare . We agree its unsafe now give us facts and a web page to prove it ! 
Been to all your safety classes our company pays us to attend these now answer the question ? most accidents electrical are by untrained people and most are not electricians there linemen or workers untrained thats a fact just look at the osha web site its all there in print . 

Come on Bob & Zog give us some facts or a web page to see this if your on the safety board that makes the rules you must have some statistics to show us hardheaded electricians .

OK how many electricians in the US in the last 10 years have a death related electrocution while working HOT!


----------



## paul d.

a good electrician should be able to evaluate any " hot " situation and handle it . that includes walking away from it. i'm 54 y.o. and any hot work i've done was done MY way, on MY terms.


----------



## nick

paul d. said:


> a good electrician should be able to evaluate any " hot " situation and handle it . that includes walking away from it. i'm 54 y.o. and any hot work i've done was done MY way, on MY terms.


Hey Paul working hot in florida this time of year has a new meaning that i dont think the guys up north can relate too.
Wonder what osha can do for sweat prevention when you cant see out of them safety glasses and its now a harzard to you life best to ya :thumbsup:


----------



## paul d.

nick, i posed that question about the glasses fogging up , and sweat problems; the co. said wear glasses or get fired. simple as that.


----------



## nick

Well Paul i got one or two years on ya but wonder how we made it this far as ive done a little hot work . 

Must be luck


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Ah! It's quite clear now why you are a book thumping stump preacher. You make pretty good money at it. If I was selling Bibles, I'd be the bestest Christian in the world too.


IMO that is a load of crap.

I am willing to bet he actually does care about this subject and it is not all about the money.


----------



## paul d.

me thinks that most guys on this forum make their own luck. seems like the smarter and harder i work the luckier i get. :thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger

nick said:


> Hey Paul working hot in florida this time of year has a new meaning that i dont think the guys up north can relate too.
> Wonder what osha can do for sweat prevention when you cant see out of them safety glasses and its now a harzard to you life best to ya :thumbsup:


I have the same problem up here, if I went down there and worked with you in the real heat I would not have that sweat on my glasses .......... I would be on the ground dead from the heat.:laughing:


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> IMO that is a load of crap.
> 
> I am willing to bet he actually does care about this subject and it is not all about the money.


Oh yeah? Is that a fact I can find in the OSHA manual, or 70E?


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Oh yeah? Is that a fact I can find in the OSHA manual, or 70E?



If you read many of zogs posts here or at Mike Holts it becomes clear he cares. If you are convinced he is a phony well I think that is your loss.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> AFAIC, it's as if you don't even exist now. :whistling2:


You can wish for that but I am still here ........... and my Mommy loves me.:laughing:


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> If you read many of zogs posts here or at Mike Holts it becomes clear he cares. If you are convinced he is a phony well I think that is your loss.


Oh, well, you've sold me. He posts over at Mike Holt's. He must be legit and 100% correct on everything. I wish I had known this earlier. Since you've told me that, I'll never so much as change the batteries in the remote without PPE.


----------



## blueheels2

I think some of you guys are being a little hard on ZOG. So you don't want to wear PPE in a residential panel, that's fine but it doesn't make it right. I probably wouldn't wear it either. However I see nothing wrong with being educated on the subject so I have a real grasp of the situation at hand. I will definitely take more time if I know the down side is I get my face blown off. I'd say there are definitely some jobs where PPE should be worn and dammit the customer should be willing to shut it down or the boss should be willing to buy the PPE. Until we all get on board and look out for each other guys will still put themselves in (unnecessary) dangerous situations. 
Interesting also that I am going to work in 20 minutes for a scheduled shutdown. GC decided he didn't want us to pull some wires out of a MDP hot. Original word was the building could not be shut down but he pushed them and they found us a time when they could.


----------



## oldman

some of us only take exception to the fear mongering....

we happen to be working today because we have to shut down a dialysis clinic, and Sunday is the only day it can happen...

i'm all for working safe and smart....I'm just not for scare tactics to get the point across...i think it's counter productive...

but it's not just about 70E....i feel that way about everything...we protect too many stupid people from themselves, and allow them to breed...watch the documentary "idiocracy" to see what our future looks like...


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Oh, well, you've sold me. He posts over at Mike Holt's. He must be legit and 100% correct on everything. I wish I had known this earlier. Since you've told me that, I'll never so much as change the batteries in the remote without PPE.


I did not say he is legit _because_ he posts at Mike H's, I said if you read his posts _here_ _and there _I think you can tell he is legit. Big difference.


----------



## TOOL_5150

Yall still fighting huh? Is this kindergarden, or an electrical forum? InPhase, you're not acting very professional.

~Matt


----------



## RePhase277

TOOL_5150 said:


> Yall still fighting huh? Is this kindergarden, or an electrical forum? InPhase, you're not acting very professional.
> 
> ~Matt


How do you figure? I haven't resorted to name calling or any such un-professional behavior. You mean, because I haven't caved in to the fear mongering?


----------



## paul d.

TOOL_5150 said:


> Yall still fighting huh? Is this kindergarden, or an electrical forum? InPhase, you're not acting very professional.
> 
> ~Matt


what he said x2


----------



## TOOL_5150

InPhase277 said:


> How do you figure? I haven't resorted to name calling or any such un-professional behavior. You mean, because I haven't caved in to the fear mongering?


You think zog is fear mongering? I dont believe that at all. You must have not watched enough arc flash videos, and seen the aftermath pictures enough, or you just dont care. 

When you stop respecting electricity, you're going to get hurt, maybe not today, maybe next month... Theres no need to get complacent in this trade. I dont know about you, but I think living is way better then being dead, or messed up real bad for the rest of your life because of an accident, that could have been prevented.


~Matt


----------



## RePhase277

TOOL_5150 said:


> You think zog is fear mongering? I dont believe that at all. You must have not watched enough arc flash videos, and seen the aftermath pictures enough, or you just dont care.
> 
> When you stop respecting electricity, you're going to get hurt, maybe not today, maybe next month... Theres no need to get complacent in this trade. I dont know about you, but I think living is way better then being dead, or messed up real bad for the rest of your life because of an accident, that could have been prevented.
> 
> 
> ~Matt


Right. It is this respect that keeps me alive. The minute you are complacent, you are dead. I've seen all the arc flash videos. Most of them are complete meltdowns, which do not happen from a stray #12 or putting in a branch breaker. Checking for continuity between the poles of a multipole breaker is SOP (at least for me) before sticking it to the bus. Inspecting the bus supports is also standard. Grip another breaker and gently wiggle it, you can see if there is a mechanical problem before you start.

It is fear mongering to say that you absolutely must de-energize every piece of equipment you come into contact with. And people are profiting from this. I wager that people are far more complacent in 120/240 V resi panels. It is here I would expect to see the most accidents. When I'm in a 480 V panel, I'm scared to breath. Slow and deliberate. Like someone said earlier, when I work hot, it is MY way, on MY terms. People working around me know not to come bouncing around or making noise or trying to be funny. That might get your ass kicked.

If you open up a panel and see it is clearly damaged in some that installing a breaker will cause a meltdown, well don't do it. I never ask anyone to work hot. If it HAS to be done, I'll do it. Period. Nothing childish or un-professional.


----------



## RePhase277

And how is it that we have had this discussion without resorting to tantrums and snot-slinging, and we are accused of being kindergartners, when other threads run 10 pages about whether to put tape on a receptacle, and there is all kinds of flaming and name calling? I think this has been rather civil.


----------



## Bob Badger

TOOL_5150 said:


> Yall still fighting huh?


Well I am not fighting, I am talking about electrical safety in the electrical safety section of "Electrician Talk":laughing:

That seems to get some folks all persnickety, I really don't know why it should.:no:


----------



## TOOL_5150

fighting was the wrong word. The same things are being said over again and going on for pages. Everyone has stated what they think, but yet, we like to










~Matt


----------



## RePhase277

This bandwidth ain't gonna use itself up...


----------



## TOOL_5150

InPhase277 said:


> This bandwidth ain't gonna use itself up...


Ok, that actually made me LOL

Besides - I got nothing better to do.. next job I got is 10 days from now. Till then, I can think how I am going to make a house payment.

~Matt


----------



## RePhase277

TOOL_5150 said:


> Ok, that actually made me LOL
> 
> Besides - I got nothing better to do.. next job I got is 10 days from now. Till then, I can think how I am going to make a house payment.
> 
> ~Matt


May I suggest... crime? When the chips are down, and all else fails, crime always pays...

Hell, you've got the time...


----------



## oldman

Problem is all the censor happy communists on this board who think if you disagree with them the thread should be closed. They refer to cordial discussions as "beating a dead horse". 

When all they have to do is not open the thread. 

This is the problem with America. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. They want someone else to protect them from themselves.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> This bandwidth ain't gonna use itself up...


:laughing:


Maybe

http://www.endoftheinternet.com/


----------



## TOOL_5150

InPhase277 said:


> May I suggest... crime? When the chips are down, and all else fails, crime always pays...
> 
> Hell, you've got the time...


I think ill go steal some copper. :laughing:


~Matt


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> edit to add: i read through most of this thread, and there were good points made...i am in no way advocating rolling through life with reckless abandon...but i stand by my point that society as a whole is becoming afraid of it's own shadow and it's detrimental to the success of this country...


Is it detrimental to follow the laws that already exist? :001_huh:

To me your trying to drag all the worlds problems into this thread which really have noting to do with a simple decision to shut a panel down.


----------



## TOOL_5150

Now if this thread was about something really difficult, it would have had about 3 posts and the problem would have been solved. 

This is a ground up/ ground down subject. It sould be in the FAQ with all the other ones.


~Matt


----------



## Bob Badger

TOOL_5150 said:


> Now if this thread was about something really difficult, it would have had about 3 posts and the problem would have been solved.


No doubt. 



> This is a ground up/ ground down subject. It sould be in the FAQ with all the other ones.


Well I have no 'power' here but I hope the mods will let it run. I don't see this at all like the Ground up / ground down debates, few deaths or injuries have been caused by that decision. 

It has not been all the same, Nick asked some good questions here 



Nick said:


> Now that question is still not answered how many electricians actually are electrocuted each year by doing there jobs unsafe working hot . leave regulations out of the question just facts how many one ?
> 
> Were only asking for a electrician not a factory worker or a linemen a real electrician that does electrical work you will not find any its rare . We agree its unsafe now give us facts and a web page to prove it !
> Been to all your safety classes our company pays us to attend these now answer the question ? most accidents electrical are by untrained people and most are not electricians there linemen or workers untrained thats a fact just look at the osha web site its all there in print .
> 
> Come on Bob & Zog give us some facts or a web page to see this if your on the safety board that makes the rules you must have some statistics to show us hardheaded electricians .
> 
> OK how many electricians in the US in the last 10 years have a death related electrocution while working HOT!


I am hoping zog has some answers for them at his fingertips or I will have to go searching.


----------



## Speedy Petey

Well after that last couple of pages of back and forth non-productive B-S I was thinking it should be closed. 

If we can keep it at least close to on topic I will let it run. We'll see if Marc agrees.


----------



## Faultfinder1

According to the Electronic Library of Construction Occupational Safety and Health (eLCOSH), exposure to electricity is still a major cause of death among construction workers. Among electricians, the most serious concern is working with or near live wires without enlisting the proper safety procedures. Electrocutions kill an average of 143 construction workers each year. Data from 1992 through 2003 indicates electrical workers suffered the highest number of electrocutions per year (586 or 34 percent of the total deaths caused by electrocution), followed by site laborers, carpenters, supervisors of nonelectrical workers and roofers. 
More than half the electrocutions of electrical workers were caused by direct or indirect contact with live electrical equipment and wiring, including lighting fixtures, circuit breakers, control panels, junction boxes and transformers. In other words, those deaths could have been prevented had proper lockout/tagout and de-energizing procedures been followed.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), Washington, D.C., estimates there are approximately 350 electrical-related fatalities a year, which roughly equals one fatality per day. In addition, statistics from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), Atlanta, show electrocution is the third- leading cause of death at work among 16 and 17-year-old workers, accounting for 12 percent of all workplace deaths.

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=7552


Just found that after a 2 minute Google search. Seems electricians do get killed working live. Of course, most statistics available run several years behind, but the point remains the same. 
I hope this answered the underlying question and should put this discussion to rest - or at the least back on topic. 


www.faultlocating.com


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> Ah! It's quite clear now why you are a book thumping stump preacher. You make pretty good money at it. If I was selling Bibles, I'd be the bestest Christian in the world too.


Are you 8 years old? You act like it. I am just trying to help people understand the regulations and maybe save some lives. And I dont make any money at it, I do free seminars at trade conferences all over North America, write white papers for free for trade magazines and newsletters and try to help those in this forum that are not so pig headed as you and actually want to learn something.


----------



## Zog

1900 said:


> How many of those happen a year? .5? 1?
> 
> If so, $17.4 million in Canadian money isn't too bad.
> 
> Other the other hand, 70E is costing the customers $17.4 Billion!!! :thumbup:


OSHA reports that each year 2000 arc flash victims are sent to burn centers. That is 5 or 6 each day.


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> Oh yeah? Is that a fact I can find in the OSHA manual, or 70E?


If you read my post earlier you would know that the reason I care is my 18 month old girl was severly burned and I had to debreed her 3 times a day for 3 months after she was released from the burn center. It was hell on my family and I dont want anyone to go through what we did. 

I also had some friends that worked at the Ford Rouge powerhouse when it exploded in 1999 and ended up dying in a burn center after a week of hell. 

So yeah, I do care. But at this point I have given up on you, do whatever you want, evolution works for elcctricians too.


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> How do you figure? I haven't resorted to name calling or any such un-professional behavior.


Oh really?



InPhase277 said:


> Ah! It's quite clear now why you are a book thumping stump preacher.


----------



## user4818

Generally, when someone starts attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself, is the first sign they have lost the argument.


----------



## 1900

Zog said:


> OSHA reports that each year 2000 arc flash victims are sent to burn centers. That is 5 or 6 each day.


I was clearly asking about people hurt badly, I quoted the $17.4 million cost.

Out of the 5 or 6 people per day who were flashed, how many of them are sent home with some aloe and sunburn cream?


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> I was clearly asking about people hurt badly, I quoted the $17.4 million cost.
> 
> Out of the 5 or 6 people per day who were flashed, how many of them are sent home with some aloe and sunburn cream?


Even a slight burn injury will still cause pain and suffering and some lost time and productivity. So the point you are making is.........??


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> Even a slight burn injury will still cause pain and suffering and some lost time and productivity. So the point you are making is.........??


The point is that a slight burn and discomfort do NOT cost $17.4 million dollars.


----------



## Bob Badger

1900 said:


> The point is that a slight burn and discomfort do NOT cost $17.4 million dollars.


I don't disagree with you there.

I don't know how they come up with $17.4 million I sure would like to see that. I imagine that many only cost tens of thousands and relative few where extremely high due to litigation skewing the average to the high end.

But any accident that sends the employee to the hospital can cost a lot more money in medical bills then it would have cost to shut the equipment down. Then if the employee decides to bring a civil action it could cost more.


----------



## LGLS

We are NOT PERMITTED to wear the PPE in the presence of the public. It scares them.


----------



## 1900

Bob Badger said:


> I don't disagree with you there.
> 
> I don't know how they come up with $17.4 million I sure would like to see that. I imagine that many only cost tens of thousands and relative few where extremely high due to litigation skewing the average to the high end.
> 
> But any accident that sends the employee to the hospital can cost a lot more money in medical bills then it would have cost to shut the equipment down. Then if the employee decides to bring a civil action it could cost more.


The fact that you are missing is that you can't compare *1* shutdown to *1* injury.

You have to compare 5,000 shutdowns* to 1 injury. 

I pulled the number 5,000 out of thin air, if anyone has a real world number then please let us know. For example, the company I worked for had 2 flash accidents in the 35 years they have been in business. In that time, how many times should they have had shutdowns per 70E regulations? 5,000? 10,000?


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> We are NOT PERMITTED to wear the PPE in the presence of the public. It scares them.


Well, that's a great reason not to use PPE. :001_huh:


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> Oh really?


Yes really. Calling you a book thumping stump preacher isn't the same as calling you c*cksucking a** hammering f*cktard. You are preaching from your stump, up on your soapbox if you will. How is that derogatory?

I'm sorry your daughter was burned. That is tragic. You should be directing your efforts toward Scottish Rite or the Shriners, not toward adults who choose what they do. I mean, if a family member had been hurt in a car accident, would you be telling me I need to wear a seat belt, or helmet?


----------



## user4818

So this really does boil down to personal choice. Here's mine:

If I was a business owner, I would not let you work on any of my equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong. 

I was an electrical contractor, I would not let you work on any equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong.


----------



## Zog

1900 said:


> I was clearly asking about people hurt badly, I quoted the $17.4 million cost.
> 
> Out of the 5 or 6 people per day who were flashed, how many of them are sent home with some aloe and sunburn cream?


None of them. I am sure there are hundreds of poeple that are "flashed" every day, the stastic is burn center admissions from an arc flash, not dosctors office visits, not "flashes" burn center admissions. You are not admited to a burn center unless you have deep 2nd degree or 3rd degree burns.


----------



## RePhase277

Peter D said:


> So this really does boil down to personal choice. Here's mine:
> 
> If I was a business owner, I would not let you work on any of my equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong.


And here is where the real world and the ideal world go their separate ways. Most customers don't want to shut down. If they did, it would be a much safer world, and everyone on this thread would be happy.



> I was an electrical contractor, I would not let you work on any equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong.


And we agree here as well. I don't let anyone who works for me to do hot work, outside of snapping a breaker into granny's panel. Any hot work that is necessary other than that, I do myself.


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> Yes really. Calling you a book thumping stump preacher isn't the same as calling you c*cksucking a** hammering f*cktard. You are preaching from your stump, up on your soapbox if you will. How is that derogatory?
> 
> I'm sorry your daughter was burned. That is tragic. You should be directing your efforts toward Scottish Rite or the Shriners, not toward adults who choose what they do. I mean, if a family member had been hurt in a car accident, would you be telling me I need to wear a seat belt, or helmet?


I am not telling you to do anything, I have simply been answering questions with the correct answers that come from OSHA regulations and NFPA 70E standards. What you do with that info is up to you.

You seem to be all pissed at me and assume I dont know anything about the real world just because I know more about the subject matter than you and have proven you wrong several times on this thread. Obviously that hurt your feelings or something and you went on the attack. 

A real man would have admited he was wrong about 100 posts ago and thanked me and the others you are arguing with for telling you what the new rules are and how they can be used to save your life. But you won't, because you are incapable of that and you will go on doing what you do and thinking everyone else is a moron. Good luck with that.


----------



## user4818

InPhase277 said:


> And here is where the real world and the ideal world go their separate ways. Most customers don't want to shut down. If they did, it would be a much safer world, and everyone on this thread would be happy.


This is what I find odd. There is an apparent disconnect going on here where you think that people like Zog, myself and others who advocate a particular point of view are somehow not in the "real world." That is just absurd. I'm in the real world every day and I'm well aware that it is far from perfect. But once again I'll say that you work however you want. I really don't care. All I care about is my safety and that of those around me.


----------



## RePhase277

Zog said:


> A real man would have admited he was wrong about 100 posts ago and thanked me and the others you are arguing with for telling you what the new rules are and how they can be used to save your life. But you won't, because you are incapable of that and you will go on doing what you do and thinking everyone else is a moron. Good luck with that.


Wrong? The only thing I was wrong about was the amount of available energy in an arc blast. Other than that, I haven't made any statement that was up for validation. Are there publications that detail you are not supposed to work hot? Yes. Do I agree with them to the letter? No. Am I pissed at Zog for stump preaching? Not in the slightest. No need to call my manhood into question. I will continue to put breakers into live panels when the need arises. I have not advised anyone else to do so. If it can be turned off without 3 weeks notice, do so.


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> So this really does boil down to personal choice. Here's mine:
> 
> If I was a business owner, I would not let you work on any of my equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong.
> 
> I was an electrical contractor, I would not let you work on any equipment live because I do not want to pay for your mistake if something goes wrong.


So your views are very clear. I'll pose the same question (that no one has yet answered) to you. When you (or one of your employees) need to add a circuit to a panel at a residence, do you call the PoCo to pull the meter so you could work in a dead panel?


----------



## MDShunk

InPhase277 said:


> No need to call my manhood into question.


Not so much of a question as a statement. He's probably referencing the obscure June of 1978 IEEE white paper where a direct correlation between a man's penis size and his preference for doing hot work was discovered


----------



## 1900

Zog said:


> A real man would have admited he was wrong about 100 posts ago and thanked me and the others you are arguing with for telling you what the new rules are and how they can be used to save your life.


 This is where the problem lies, you are looking for a pat on the back, you have a real bad holier than thou attitude.


> But you won't, because you are incapable of that and you will go on doing what you do and thinking everyone else is a moron. Good luck with that.


 His opinion differs from yours. Why do you think your opinion is right while his is wrong? His opinion is that 70E is too strict and not "real world" enough, your opinion is the opposite. IMO, BOTH of you have valid opinions.


----------



## RePhase277

Peter D said:


> This is what I find odd. There is an apparent disconnect going on here where you think that people like Zog, myself and others who advocate a particular point of view are somehow not in the "real world." That is just absurd. I'm in the real world every day and I'm well aware that it is far from perfect. But once again I'll say that you work however you want. I really don't care. All I care about is my safety and that of those around me.


I didn't say you and Zog don't live in the real world. I'm sure you all know what is going on around you. Your point of view does not reflect how customers generally feel.

I gave an example earlier about a bad transformer breaker feeding the 120 V loads on the first floor of an office building. According to you and Zog, I should have told those paying customers to go pound sand up their ass when they wanted it fixed NOW. By your prescription, the entire building needed to be shut down. They would not have had that. It would have had to be on a Sunday, three or four days away. In the mean time, the first floor would have to go without computers and phones. Right. This is what I mean by real world. I pulled the breaker out. Tested teh new breaker for shorts and continuity across the pole (SOP) and installed it. Walked away with a check.


----------



## RePhase277

MDShunk said:


> Not so much of a question as a statement. He's probably referencing the obscure June of 1978 IEEE white paper where a direct correlation between a man's penis size and his preference for doing hot work was discovered


:laughing::thumbup: I forgot about that classic work.


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> This is what I find odd. There is an apparent disconnect going on here where you think that people like Zog, myself and others who advocate a particular point of view are somehow not in the "real world." That is just absurd. I'm in the real world every day and I'm well aware that it is far from perfect. But once again I'll say that you work however you want. I really don't care. All I care about is my safety and that of those around me.


The real world is a place where, as we mentioned earlier, you could lose your job (there is always room for a layoff) in this bad economy for not wanting to make some hot splices or drill into a hot panel, or the many other common things we do hot. That's the real world, that's the pressure some of us see.

When you are not in that position, it's much easy to say that you will not work hot and no one else should either.


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> So your views are very clear. I'll pose the same question (that no one has yet answered) to you. When you (or one of your employees) need to add a circuit to a panel at a residence, do you call the PoCo to pull the meter so you could work in a dead panel?


It all depends on the panel. If it's a total rats nest, I won't hesitate to throw the main and put some heavy tape over the main breaker terminals. Pulling the meter is not necessary. If the panel is nice and neat I'll probably work it live. 

As for working in a high amperage 208/120 or 480/277 panelboard or switch board live, I would never do such a thing.


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> As for working in a high amperage 208/120 or 480/277 panelboard or switch board live, I would never do such a thing.


Anybody ever zing the dials down on the main and do it anyhow? :whistling2:


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> The real world is a place where, as we mentioned earlier, you could lose your job (there is always room for a layoff) in this bad economy for not wanting to make some hot splices or drill into a hot panel, or the many other common things we do hot. That's the real world, that's the pressure some of us see.
> 
> When you are not in that position, it's much easy to say that you will not work hot and no one else should either.



You're not of much use to your family when you're in a hospital bed or the grave if you are the victim of an accident caused by your own machismo. 

Anyway, I'm tired of going round and round with this. Your mind is made up, and so is mine, so we will have to leave it at that. I'm done.


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> You're not of much use to your family when you're in a hospital bed or the grave if you are the victim of an accident caused by your own machismo.


 Where did "machismo" come into this? Now who is throwing insults? 

The fact of the matter is that I could say the same thing to you. You're not of much use to your family when you're in a hospital bed or the grave if you are the victim of an accident caused by a car accident. And the facts say you are MUCH more likely to get hurt in a car accident than doing electrical work.

So why are you going to continue to drive? Why are you going to put your family at risk?


----------



## Bob Badger

1900 said:


> The fact that you are missing is that you can't compare *1* shutdown to *1* injury.
> 
> You have to compare 5,000 shutdowns* to 1 injury.


You sure can when it's you company that the fickle finger of fate points to.

The fact that 4999 other companies saved some money will not comfort you.


----------



## RePhase277

MDShunk said:


> Anybody ever zing the dials down on the main and do it anyhow? :whistling2:


Only me and a handful of other idiot Darwin Award hopefuls, apparently.


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> The fact of the matter is that I could say the same thing to you. You're not of much use to your family when you're in a hospital bed or the grave if you are the victim of an accident caused by a car accident. And the facts say you are MUCH more likely to get hurt in a car accident than doing electrical work.


:bangin: :wallbash:


----------



## Bob Badger

1900 said:


> The fact of the matter is that I could say the same thing to you. You're not of much use to your family when you're in a hospital bed or the grave if you are the victim of an accident caused by a car accident. And the facts say you are MUCH more likely to get hurt in a car accident than doing electrical work.
> 
> So why are you going to continue to drive? Why are you going to put your family at risk?


If I had better options then having my family drive around on the streets where 40,000 are killed each year I would take advantage of them but I don't see any right now.

We often do have options about working live.


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> :bangin: :wallbash:


Exactly what I thought I'd get from you, a cop-out.

At least Bob admitted that he is in fact putting himself and family in more danger by driving. He apparently understands that risk is a part of life.


----------



## 1900

Bob Badger said:


> If I had better options then having my family drive around on the streets where 40,000 are killed each year I would take advantage of them but I don't see any right now.
> 
> We often do have options about working live.


Very true, we sometimes have options. And sometimes those options can be to work hot and keep a job or to be the one guy who won't work hot and be the first layed off. 

Just like you have an option to drive and risk your life, or find a job in which you could use mass transit or your own two feet and be safe.


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> Exactly what I thought I'd get from you, a cop-out.
> 
> At least Bob admitted that he is in fact putting himself and family in more danger by driving. He apparently understands that risk is a part of life.


I'm "copping out" because this thread has gone completely full circle, and there is nothing more that can be gained from it. The driving analogy has already been used and worn out. Yes, driving is dangerous. I have no option but to drive to work. I do have an option not to work live. Some risk in life can be mitigated, and some cannot. Is that clear enough for you?


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> The driving analogy has already been used and worn out. Yes, driving is dangerous. I have no option but to drive to work. I do have an option not to work live. Is that clear enough for you?


You could take a helicopter. Far fewer people die in helicopter accidents each year when compared to automobile accidents.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> You could take a helicopter. Far fewer people die in helicopter accidents each year when compared to automobile accidents.


Yes, when I'm wealthy and successful like you I'll surely be taking a helicopter to work.  :jester:


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> I have no option but to drive to work.


 That is simply untrue. You do not have to do the work that you currently perform. You can find ways to make a living without driving, millions of people do everyday, is your family not worth it?


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Yes, when I'm wealthy and successful like you I'll surely be taking a helicopter to work.  :jester:


:jester: Rite Aid drugstores is a customer of mine. The guy that used to be the CEO would take his helicopter to work pretty often, which is what gave me the idea to type that to you. He gets in trouble with the neighbors, who regularly complain to the town about the noise. He just lands in his yard. The headquarters is just a short piece away from me. The thing has some kind of jet engine.


----------



## user4818

1900 said:


> That is simply untrue. You do not have to do the work that you currently perform. You can find ways to make a living without driving, millions of people do everyday, is your family not worth it?


Let it go....just please let it go.....


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> :jester: Rite Aid drugstores is a customer of mine. The guy that used to be the CEO would take his helicopter to work pretty often, which is what gave me the idea to type that to you. He gets in trouble with the neighbors, who regularly complain to the town about the noise. He just lands in his yard. The headquarters is just a short piece away from me. The thing has some kind of jet engine.


If there is any land left on your street, I'll be buying some just so I can land my helicopter on it.


----------



## 1900

Peter D said:


> Let it go....just please let it go.....


Fine, I will certainly let it go.


----------



## nick

Well we found this thought it might be interesting to look at all workers in all areas there is more danger out there then just electrical .
And theres one just for people 55 and older . http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoibulletin2005.htm


----------



## acmax

1900 said:


> Fine, I will certainly let it go.


 
Thank you,:blink: Remember it's OK to drive, just wear your seat belt. Turn off the power and live.You can make a difference.:laughing:


----------



## Zog

1900 said:


> This is where the problem lies, you are looking for a pat on the back, you have a real bad holier than thou attitude.


I am holier than no-one, but I know what the regulations are better than most. I have done extensive arc flash testing at KEMA labs, been an expert witness dozens of times and when it come to electrical safety I know my stuff, now I dont know squat about bending pipe or how many outlets you can put on a breaker, I happen to have an area of expertise. 

I just get defensive when someone tells me I dont know what I am talked about and they obviously havent even read the standards. If that comes off wrong to you I apologize. Someday in another thread when you get all high and mightly on me because I tell you the ground plug has to be up, I neve actually read that but I know in my head that is a fact, maybe I will feel the same way about you. 



1900 said:


> His opinion differs from yours. Why do you think your opinion is right while his is wrong?His opinion is that 70E is too strict and not "real world" enough, your opinion is the opposite. IMO, BOTH of you have valid opinions.


He is stating an opionion, I am just quoting what the standards say. I have not stated any of my own opionions. If I did they would probally suprise you, but I have stuck to facts. If you question anything I have posted I will be happy to give you the section and article in either OSHA or the 2009 70E that I was referencing. 

I prefer to keep my opionions to myself but anytime I do state them I always say in the post it is only my opionion. 

Hey I dont write the standards, dont shoot the messenger.


----------



## Zog

InPhase277 said:


> I gave an example earlier about a bad transformer breaker feeding the 120 V loads on the first floor of an office building. According to you and Zog, I should have told those paying customers to go pound sand up their ass when they wanted it fixed NOW.


Not really but depending on what type of work you were doing you should have either shut down that circuit or had the customer authorize you to do energized work on thier property (With them agreeing it cannot be done shut down), you would then fill out the EEWP and wear the proper PPE to do the task safely. Those are your 2 options if you want to comply with OSHA and 70E working rules. You have already made it clear you dont care at all about following any of these rules. 

Or tell them to "pack sand up thier ass", we are looking for a new customer relations manager, you interested in the job?



InPhase277 said:


> By your prescription, the entire building needed to be shut down. They would not have had that. It would have had to be on a Sunday, three or four days away. In the mean time, the first floor would have to go without computers and phones. Right. This is what I mean by real world.


If the breaker failed they arleady were without power right? You dont need to kill power to the whole building, just the panel you need to work in. 



InPhase277 said:


> I pulled the breaker out. Tested teh new breaker for shorts and continuity across the pole (SOP) and installed it. Walked away with a check.


Wow. Speechless.


----------



## TOOL_5150

Peter D said:


> I have no option but to drive to work.


This got me thinking... Last week we [my helper and I] had a job about 65-70 miles away. Going down the freeway, they have big light up signs that let you know of accidents, severe conditions, stupid messages: Click it, or ticket!. Anyway, last week was "bike to work week" thats what it said on the sign. I looked at my helper and asked, So tomarrow you want to bike to work? We laughed and tried to figure out how much equipment/tools would get left behind if we had to bike to work.














Well... It was funny at the time. Guess you had to be there.:thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## LGLS

So this is pretty much settled then - the real NONUNION MEN work live while the union PU$$IES insist on shutdowns becasuse they're too afraid.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So this is pretty much settled then - the real UNION MEN work live while the nonunion PU$$IES insist on shutdowns becasuse they're too afraid.



You know what they say, 'Consider the source'.

When someone that I already have no respect for says something like this all it does is make me laugh. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> You know what they say, 'Consider the source'.
> 
> When someone that I already have no respect for says something like this all it does is make me laugh. :laughing:


Now Bob, you KNOW I posted that tongue in cheek... hence the taunting smiley...


----------



## 1900

Bob Badger said:


> You know what they say, 'Consider the source'.
> 
> When someone that I already have no respect for says something like this all it does is make me laugh. :laughing:


We finally agree 100%.


----------



## TOOL_5150

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So this is pretty much settled then - the real UNION MEN work live while the nonunion PU$$IES insist on shutdowns becasuse they're too afraid.


Even if it was a joke, still not funny. Maybe funny in person, actually seeing your intent, but here, just bad juju.


~Matt


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## LGLS

TOOL_5150 said:


> Even if it was a joke, still not funny. Maybe funny in person, actually seeing your intent, but here, just bad juju.
> 
> 
> ~Matt


Fine, then I'll go fix it for you.


----------



## Mastertorturer

When someone tells you to do dangerous work; get mad. If they think it's safe after you explained the dangers, then they should do it. 

That anger will save your life and maybe some of your friends lives too.

No Electrician in the world is paid enough to accept being burnt to a crisp. So when you refuse and they get in your face... get mad.


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## TOOL_5150

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Fine, then I'll go fix it for you.


My life is now complete 

~Matt


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## bobelectric

Don't you have grass to cut?


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## electricalperson

i dont mind installing breakers live in a panel in someones house. im not too worried about it. i once had to install a 3 pole 20 amp 480v breaker in a live 200 amp 277/480 volt panel. it was located right next to the main. i asked the maintanence department guy if i could shut it down and he said "ABSOLUTLY NOT! WE HAVE PEOPLE MAKING HATS AND THIS PANEL MIGHT FEED 2 MACHINES. IF WE SHUT OFF POWER TO THE MACHINES THE HATS WILL BE RUINED"

heres what i had to do

1. pray that i wont get blown up
2. get an insulated nutdriver (it was bolt on)

the company i work for doesnt supply arc flash gear. i really need to buy a set for myself

a couple years ago at the same place someone i worked with had to do the same thing. boss said "just wrap your nutdriver with tape"


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## brian john

TOOL_5150 said:


> This got me thinking... Last week we [my helper and I] had a job about 65-70 miles away. Going down the freeway, they have big light up signs that let you know of accidents, severe conditions, stupid messages: Click it, or ticket!. Anyway, last week was "bike to work week" that's what it said on the sign. I looked at my helper and asked, So tomorrow you want to bike to work? We laughed and tried to figure out how much equipment/tools would get left behind if we had to bike to work.


I use to ride to work 12 miles each way before I got a service truck, about 25 years ago. 


I read in an article regarding electrical contractors in the early 1900's the apprentices pushed the work wagon from the shop to the job site.


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## retired 7373

Mastertorturer said:


> When someone tells you to do dangerous work; get mad. If they think it's safe after you explained the dangers, then they should do it.
> 
> That anger will save your life and maybe some of your friends lives too.
> 
> No Electrician in the world is paid enough to accept being burnt to a crisp. So when you refuse and they get in your face... get mad.


I have seen 2 electricians with 2nd and 3rd degree burns from working 480 hot.
Yes if someone tells you to work something hot especially without the proper ark flash gear you need to tell them you will be right behind them helping them.
If necessary quit- its better than being burned to death.


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## Zog

electricalperson said:


> the company i work for doesnt supply arc flash gear. i really need to buy a set for myself


A new OSHA law passed in 2008 requires your employer to provide you with the PPE necessary to do the jobs they assign you to.


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## iaov

InPhase277 said:


> Accidents happen. If we followed the DoE's prescription, we'd never get any work done for filling out paper work. It isn't always as simple as shutting the whole thing down to install a breaker. If proper precautions are exercised, we can minimize the risks. But ours is a trade where there will never be 0 risk. The nanny-state that we are becoming is quite ridiculous. By similar reasoning, we'd never have went to the moon or broken the sound barrier. Mr. Edison and Mr. Tesla would have been arrested and charged.


Well put bro. We are turning into a nation of nancy boys!!


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## retired 7373

iaov said:


> Well put bro. We are turning into a nation of nancy boys!!


 
nancy boys-lol-lol-lol-
If you get yourself killed or burned for life so be it. Like a drunk driver if you get someone else hurt or killed you need to pay the price. Being macho with electricity does not prove anything except stupidity on your part.


----------



## Speedy Petey

iaov said:


> Well put bro. We are turning into a nation of nancy boys!!


I agree entirely. And I blame today's parents and insurance companies.


----------



## Speedy Petey

retired 7373 said:


> Being macho with electricity does not prove anything except stupidity on your part.


There is that silly word "macho" again. 
I have never seen a macho electrician, on the job. I have seen some that try to act macho other times and they are funny to watch.


----------



## Bob Badger

Compare us to people living 50 years ago and we look like Nancy boys, and those people look like Nancy boys to those living another 50 years back.

But you know what? We also have much longer average lifespans.


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## Faultfinder1

iaov said:


> Well put bro. We are turning into a nation of nancy boys!!



Accidents happen? Are you friggin serious????
Accidents are caused, and usually by people with that same attitude. Go look for the stats on electrician deaths from 50 years ago, when they didn't have any of these rules/regulations in place and tell me that those guys were better off. We have the means now to keep ourselves alive and not burned or maimed and you think that makes us "nancy-boys"?? 
If you want to not be a "nancy-boy" and get yourself killed, PLEASE go ahead. Just stop trying to convince other people that being safe on the job is in some way not "manly". 


www.faultlocating.com


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## Safety-Guy

Faultfinder1 said:


> Accidents happen? Are you friggin serious????
> Accidents are caused, and usually by people with that same attitude. Go look for the stats on electrician deaths from 50 years ago, when they didn't have any of these rules/regulations in place and tell me that those guys were better off. We have the means now to keep ourselves alive and not burned or maimed and you think that makes us "nancy-boys"??
> If you want to not be a "nancy-boy" and get yourself killed, PLEASE go ahead. Just stop trying to convince other people that being safe on the job is in some way not "manly".
> 
> 
> www.faultlocating.com


Can I get an AMEN!


----------



## retired 7373

Safety-Guy said:


> Can I get an AMEN![/quote
> 
> AMEN- I could not find the words before, but that is exactly what I wanted to say.


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## drsparky

A few years back I attended a funeral of my old tool partner, he was a manly man, he played semi-pro football and was a male stripper on weekends. This did not prevent him from dieing a painful death when he was blown up in a transformer vault.


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## 220/221

> Accidents happen? Are you friggin serious????
> Accidents are caused,


You can't lump *all *accidents into a single catagory.

*MOST *accidents *are* avoidable but sometimes, schit happens.


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## Safety-Guy

220/221 said:


> You can't lump *all *accidents into a single catagory.
> 
> *MOST *accidents *are* avoidable but sometimes, schit happens.


All accidents are preventable.
You may not be the cause, but can be the effect.


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## retired 7373

Safety-Guy said:


> All accidents are preventable.
> You may not be the cause, but can be the effect.


Yes all Accidents are preventable. I saw just how far safety can be pushed while working on a nuclear power plant for 2 years.


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## 220/221

> Yes all Accidents are preventable


 
*You are sitting at a bus stop, minding your own business when a car plows into you because the driver had a heart attack.*

Technically it can be prevented by getting rid or cars, bus stops or heart diesese. Realistically, schit happens.

*You are taking off in a 747 when a flock of geese brings down your plane.*

Again, get rid of all planes or geese?

*You are kicking back on the beach when a 60 foot tidal wave appears on the horizon.*

Stay home in a bunker?

In real life, *all* accidents are not preventable. *All *and *never* are words that can rarely be used correctly.


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## Zog

220/221 said:


> In real life, *all* accidents are not preventable. *All *and *never* are words that can rarely be used correctly.


Well said, but IMO we should make any reasonable attempt to prevent the ones that are preventable.


----------



## retired 7373

220/221 said:


> *You are sitting at a bus stop, minding your own business when a car plows into you because the driver had a heart attack.*
> 
> Technically it can be prevented by getting rid or cars, bus stops or heart diesese. Realistically, schit happens.
> 
> *You are taking off in a 747 when a flock of geese brings down your plane.*
> 
> Again, get rid of all planes or geese?
> 
> *You are kicking back on the beach when a 60 foot tidal wave appears on the horizon.*
> 
> Stay home in a bunker?
> 
> In real life, *all* accidents are not preventable. *All *and *never* are words that can rarely be used correctly.


 
I know I was talking about construction jobs


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## Safety-Guy

retired 7373 said:


> I know I was talking about construction jobs


Me too!!

But
Man having heart attack, Sue his doctor for not catching this and stopping him from driving.

The Geese, The government spends money on silly stuff all the time, Sue the government for not installing Bird deterrent systems at offending airport.

Tidal Wave, Dude, get a surf board, Kowabungaaaaaaa!!!


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## 220/221

> Well said, but IMO we should make any reasonable attempt to prevent the ones that are preventable.


:thumbup:

That's *all* I'm sayin :thumbsup:

I'd take it a step farther and suggest that we should make extrodinary attempts.


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## Johnt

Now this is tricky I am a supervisor and have done it hot in panels, gear, and vaults. But a few rules I demand 1st 3 to 4 people fully suited standing on a rubber mat 1 intelligent hook man. This is just a start before starting everybody goes over the job step by step what is going to happen and all possible items that can go wrong. In other words Pre Task Planning. Following these steps for all voltages including extreme will come home alive. And I work the extreme voltages yes I walk the high wires and yes it feels like ants on your skin.


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## 220/221

BTW, I forgot to ask. 

What was that guy doing in the utube video? It looked like he was spinning something around and around???


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## 76nemo

220/221 said:


> BTW, I forgot to ask.
> 
> What was that guy doing in the utube video? It looked like he was spinning something around and around???


 
The guy racking in a breaker into the gear?


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## 220/221

I guess.

This one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


WTH is racking in a breaker?


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## user4818

220/221 said:


> WTH is racking in a breaker?


The process of mechanically installing or removing a breaker in large switch gear...in other words, a breaker in a panel that is much larger than your typical snap-in bushing installation. :laughing:


----------



## drsparky

220/221 said:


> I guess.
> 
> This one
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo
> 
> 
> WTH is racking in a breaker?


Big breakers can weigh hundreds of pounds, some have a worm gear, some have ratchets on tracks some even raise up with jacks. You not only have to force the breaker into place but the buss shutters must be forced open, and the electrical connections are very tight. New Cutler Hammer PDP’s have a remote controlled breaker racker, I feel much safer racking a 1200 amp breaker from across the room.


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## drsparky

The first photo is an old Allis Chalmers breaker being racked; it is basically a pry bar with notches fixed to the floor. The second shot is with a new remote racker, were would you rather be if it blows?


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## Zog

drsparky said:


> The first photo is an old Allis Chalmers breaker being racked; it is basically a pry bar with notches fixed to the floor. The second shot is with a new remote racker, were would you rather be if it blows?


That unit is nice if you have all the same breaker types at your plant in the same location as shown in this picture, but it weighs over 400 pounds so it is not very portable and only works on certian breaker types. 

This unit works on every breaker out there, is lightweight, and can be operated wirelessly, I have seen them all in action and this one is the best out there. http://www.remoterackingsolutions.com/remote-racking-videos.htm


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## drsparky

Zog said:


> That unit is nice if you have all the same breaker types at your plant in the same location as shown in this picture, but it weighs over 400 pounds so it is not very portable and only works on certian breaker types.
> 
> This unit works on every breaker out there, is lightweight, and can be operated wirelessly, I have seen them all in action and this one is the best out there. http://www.remoterackingsolutions.com/remote-racking-videos.htm


I was looking for a photo of a Cutler Hammer RPR-2 but could not find one so I used the Allis Chalmers.


----------



## Zog

drsparky said:


> I was looking for a photo of a Cutler Hammer RPR-2 but could not find one so I used the Allis Chalmers.


FPL bought one of those, then they saw the Arc Safe model and bought 25 units, they are trying to sell thier (never used) Eaton C-H model.


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## drsparky

Cool, I never got to use the RPR-2; I just removed the bubble wrap and got it charging. It came with the PDPs on a major plant expansion. We did not need to pull any breakers after we had powered up.
A few years ago I had to rack a breaker for FPL in the Juno Beach corporate headquarters building and could not find a racking wrench anywhere. Had to use a socket and a 1/2 ratchet. Hope one of the 25 goes there.


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## adam4all

There are no accidents - it's called "human error". Ask any cop or emergency room physician.

Thank you Zog for being academic - as for the hard men - give'er - better you than me. God help you.

I am a 4th year and am still getting comfortable with splicing live. As far as switch gear, it's pretty obvious how risky that can be. I will definately be taking my time and working my plan in live distribution panels. 

Thanks to all who have info to share - and for those with opinions, you know where those belong.

Love this forum and hope we continue to inform and educate each other.:thumbup:


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## captkirk

Bob Badger said:


> That would be this one.
> 
> Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo


 WTF is that guy thinking. Im all for shutting down. F that man. Im having my first child in less than a month and I would be damed to hell if I would risk my life for some bean counters.... Unreal...that dude almost looked like he was "Jacking" up a car....In a 480 panel no less. That guys boss should be fired IMO.


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## Zog

captkirk said:


> WTF is that guy thinking. Im all for shutting down. F that man. Im having my first child in less than a month and I would be damed to hell if I would risk my life for some bean counters.... Unreal...that dude almost looked like he was "Jacking" up a car....In a 480 panel no less. That guys boss should be fired IMO.


The only thing they did wrong was not wearing the right PPE or use remote racking, the breaker had an issue with the racking mech and they did not know the correct actions to take to correct it. But, the "jacking" motion you see is how you rack these breakers. I do it every day.


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## Toronto Sparky

And to think years ago (when I knew everything) I used to shove 600V busplugs into the live busduct .. Live and learn.. And I was lucky to live.


----------



## RIVETER

*Live work*



Bob Badger said:


> Of course there is, it might take planing and scheduling but darn few things can not be shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why.
> 
> Why do you think the convenience of the buildings tenants outweighs your safety or any other electricians safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.
> 
> I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.
> 
> My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.


Bob I agree with you. That same university has probably closed classes for the day because of a water line break in the past...You have to draw your own line in regards to safety.


----------



## zgozvrm

Bob Badger said:


> I would say no doubt about that as many more electricians work with those voltages.


Also, people tend to get complacent about the "lower" voltages ... "Oh it's just 120V, it'll be okay..."

(famous last words)


----------



## RIVETER

*arc flash*



Johnt said:


> Now this is tricky I am a supervisor and have done it hot in panels, gear, and vaults. But a few rules I demand 1st 3 to 4 people fully suited standing on a rubber mat 1 intelligent hook man. This is just a start before starting everybody goes over the job step by step what is going to happen and all possible items that can go wrong. In other words Pre Task Planning. Following these steps for all voltages including extreme will come home alive. And I work the extreme voltages yes I walk the high wires and yes it feels like ants on your skin.


I agree, pre task analysis is always good, especially those tasks not deemed to be a daily occurence.


----------



## sparky105

We had a guy pushing in a breaker in a 3 phase 120 /208 pnl and the bus came in contact with the back of the bucket, from pushing to hard. it blew and he was wearing full flash gear (company policy) for testing. he was ok but the damage was costly. They ran him because pushing in breakers is not testing no live work is our policy So now that any hot work is tabbo off it goes. I get alot of ot out of these policies and our customers seem to be towing the line when they are properly educated on the hazards of live work. it hasen't once become an issue of anyone saying do it live or we get someone else and if it did our policy stands and office backs us 100 %. We have an outstanding safety record and we are never turned down because of our comp numbers so I have conceded that no live work is better then taking the risk.
good luck to the rest of you I get to go home safe every night baring any other freak accidents of course.


----------



## RobRoy

It is always best to work it safe! I think about how nice it is to be able to walk away and smell the fresh air after taking off my PPE. Most guys I work with complain how hot it is, and how am I supposed to install a breaker with these bulky gloves? Safety first, always a good choice! How many of you guys out there have your NFPA 70E certification. IMO, every electrician should, regardless of the scope of work you do.


----------



## 220/221

All hot work is not equal. We must use our experience and judgement.

Racking a breaker and installing one in a resi panel = apples/oranges.

No way in hell I would push a big switch into a live bus without the proper remote equipment.


----------



## Zog

robroy952 said:


> How many of you guys out there have your NFPA 70E certification. IMO, every electrician should, regardless of the scope of work you do.


Zero. 

Just to be clear, there is no such thing as a NFPA 70E "certification". When you have been properly trained per the 70E requirements your employer can "qualify" you for specific tasks and equipment. 

But you are right, everyone should be 70E trained.


----------



## traveler

I can't count the times I've replaced a residental breaker on a live panel.....I'm still here....

~Joe


----------



## rdr

Zog said:


> Exactly! That is the whole point of an EEWP, to make someone sign thier name saying there is no other way to do it, they always change thier minds when they see that form.


Needed one of those for the idiot I saw that wanted to send a HELPER into 277 live!


----------



## rdr

MDShunk said:


> You could take a helicopter. Far fewer people die in helicopter accidents each year when compared to automobile accidents.


More people in cars less in helicopters.

More people in 120 panels less in higher voltages. 

Same analogy.


----------



## eddy current

Every customer is going to tell you "We can't shut it down"
Residential, commercial, industrial, it doesn't matter. Each customer assumes their workplace is SO important and a 15 minute or 1 hour shutdown can not be done in their mind.

We are the professionals who know the risks, not the customer.

Stick to you guns and say "NO, the power has to be shut off or it can not be done!" 

They will grumble and complain for a few minutes and give you all kinds of excuses why THEY think it can't be shut down.

If they won't let you turn off the power then leave. Are you guys so hurting for work that you can't walk away from someone trying to convince you to work dangerously for their convenience or a little money?

Grow a pair and stick to your guns. You will look more professional in the end and they will have more respect for you and for electricity.

Rant over


----------



## Zog

eddy current said:


> Every customer is going to tell you "We can't shut it down"
> Residential, commercial, industrial, it doesn't matter. Each customer assumes their workplace is SO important and a 15 minute or 1 hour shutdown can not be done in their mind.
> 
> We are the professionals who know the risks, not the customer.
> 
> Stick to you guns and say "NO, the power has to be shut off or it can not be done!"
> 
> They will grumble and complain for a few minutes and give you all kinds of excuses why THEY think it can't be shut down.
> 
> If they won't let you turn off the power then leave. Are you guys so hurting for work that you can't walk away from someone trying to convince you to work dangerously for their convenience or a little money?
> 
> Grow a pair and stick to your guns. You will look more professional in the end and they will have more respect for you and for electricity.
> 
> Rant over


Excellent point, hand them the EEWP that requires them to sign that it cannot be shut down, they won't sign it and decide a shutdown is not so bad. Thats the whole point of the EEWP.


----------



## traveler

The sad part is.....you do this, and you go to the top of the layoff list.

~Joe


----------



## Zog

traveler said:


> The sad part is.....you do this, and you go to the top of the layoff list.
> 
> ~Joe


No your company does this and avoid costly OSHA fines. (If your employer fired you for following OSHA and 70E rules your ass would be thier in court.)


----------



## Grimlock

Thanks for the form Zog. :thumbsup:


----------



## Zog

traveler said:


> The sad part is.....you do this, and you go to the top of the layoff list.
> 
> ~Joe


OSHA is fining EC's every day on this, I get one of these updates almost every day. You (and from the sounds of it your company) need to re-evaluate thier stance on energized work. 

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=16728

"OSHA also determined that the injured worker and other employees had not been adequately informed about and supplied with adequate personal protective clothing. In addition, they had not been adequately trained in electrical safe work practices and in proper hazardous energy control procedures."

"This is a clear example of the grave consequences that can result when basic electrical safeguards are not provided and used," said Arthur Dube, OSHA's area director in Buffalo. "Electricity can injure and kill almost instantly, which makes it vital that power sources be de-energized and locked out, and workers be properly trained and equipped before electrical work is performed."


----------



## rdr

A guy at work today was telling me about a guy he knew that had a meter can blow up in his face. Fortunately, he was at least wearing gloves and a shield or it could have been much worse. 

On that note, I brought up the video in this thread about the guy who got killed racking in a breaker. Suffice it to say his response just left me walking away shaking my head.


----------



## eddy current

1234


----------



## BuzzKill

Zog said:


> So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?


 that's why we make almost as much as plumbers.


----------



## LGLS

InPhase277 said:


> There is no acceptable number. But how risk averse must we be before we don't even go outside? We are electricians, there is an inherent danger in the job we do.


That's no reason to add insult to injury.




> How many steel workers must die before we stop building skyscrapers? How many fingers must be lost before we ban table saws?


So, let's take the guard off all table saws and tell the ironworkers they don't need harnesses anymore.


----------



## bobelectric

End This Thing!


----------



## 220/221

> End This Thing!


Last post was 11/24. 


It was ended. :jester:


----------

