# Quikest way to run HOME RUNS?



## smkie (Feb 11, 2010)

Just seeing if anyone has good way for most efficent and fastest way they run their home runs? Tricks of the trade? Just currious how other people do it. Thanks


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

It's sort of common since but I would say to plan your runs so they are the straightest with least obstructions with-in reason. Also plan ahead as to not block yourself with later runs. Some people just go to work then make their job harder later.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

You'll probably get 50 different answers. There is no right one for all situations.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm asuming this is residential and NM.

While you're boxing and drilling, plan out your HRs in your head. Once you know where all your 12 and 14 HR are going to be, put a 250' roll of NM on the floor at each location. Use a Sharpie to label the end, and run it up into the attic. Don't run it through the hole you drilled, just hang it on the rafter.

When you're got all you 12 and 14 HRs pushed up into the attic, start at the far end from the panel and work your way across the attic, picking the NMs up as you go. When you get to the other end, pull enough slack to make it to the panel. Then come down and work them down to the panel location.

Now go back and cut the feed end of the run long enough to route through the hole in the top plate and down to the first box in the run.


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

The number one way is to PLAN them in advance.
eg: have enough spools on hand to pull five with the same labor through the same route.

Pull the biggest wire on the job FIRST.
Pull dedicated circuits SECOND.
Don't pull smokes until light wiring is in their boxes.


----------



## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

If you have multiple runs heading to a similar location we have used a long rope with enough slack at each end to tape a wire to it, pull one to the panel, then pull the rope back and repeat.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I generally prefer to run mine through basements (sill plates), and attics (where prevented by physical damage), so I can save time by not having to drill. Planning is key. 1,000 foot reels (more than one) helps in running multiple home runs at once. However, more than two at a time can become your nemesis if they get tangled together.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> However, more than two at a time can become your nemesis if they get tangled together.


That's why God invented ty wraps with mounting holes. :thumbup:


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't have any special way of pulling hr's except for pulling a few at a time that are in the same area. 
I start from the top floor of the house and work my way down. Pull the homeruns from top floor to the panel and then rope the rest of it. The rest of the house is out of my mind. Go room to room until everything is done. Then drop my 14-3 for the smokes to the next floor (and anything else that may be connected to the next floor, 3-ways, lights whatever) and start again. If I have a helper with me I'll have him/her pull some home runs ahead of me but I usually work alone.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Louisville Slugger


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> (Corked) Louisville Slugger


:thumbsup:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Louisville Slugger


Don't leave home without it! :thumbup:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Drywall stilts. 

Anyone here ever seen them used?

They seem dangerous as hell to me but I have seen them used. 

Adjusted to about 12" for 8' lids, all the overhead romex was going in *very *quickly.....as long as you don't drop the cable.

I bet you could screw some velcro straps on paint buckets and fly thru houses.:thumbup:


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

First base, then second base, then third, on to home plate. In that order only!


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Interesting. The only thing I do without fail is lay out the wiring and mark studs to indicate where HRs are going to be. Arrow up or arrow down and numbers, 12-2, 14-2, 8-3, 6-3, 10-3, 10-2, etc.


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Drywall stilts.
> 
> Anyone here ever seen them used?
> 
> ...


I was wondering the same thing, but I have trouble standing on my own 2 feet, can't think what might happen if I stand on those things!:laughing:


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

If you have to go up or down some floors pull one to the panel location then pull it back out to the floor you are on, now make all the other HR's on that floor the same length and send all of them to the panel from there at once.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

jbfan said:


> I was wondering the same thing, but I have trouble standing on my own 2 feet, can't think what might happen if I stand on those things!:laughing:


I saw a rocker get jacked up bad once, he ended up with a nasty slice in his arm & had to get a bunch of stitches.


----------



## Zimmer86 (Jul 12, 2009)

Yeah pretty much everyone at my last company used, or tried stilts for pulling romex. It takes some getting used to thats for sure, but once you do its so much faster. There is quite a few guys that I worked with that were so used to em' they would walk up and down stairs. If they dropped there wire or tools they could get down and pick them up without taking the stilts off.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.

So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
Trade magazines pass on time saving tips...
Everyone out there reinventing the wheel... mostly in the name of timesaving and cheapening the end product.

And what does all this get us... in the LONG run? Well, the GC notices you're wiring houses with 1 man in less than 2 days. Don't'ca think HE is gonna balk when you don't also lower your price, and find your competitor who will? Noone here ever find themselves in a position where the customer, after agreeing to a price, is flabbergasted at how quickly you did the work? 

Face it guys... your all in a race to the bottom, and just about every signifigant problem we face in the industry you brought on yourselves in the name of a "quick fix" at some easy money (initially) only to have it come back and bite us all in the ass in the long run.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> That's why God invented ty wraps with mounting holes. :thumbup:


Do you mean like those low voltage straps they're always advertising in EC magazine?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> ...


:sleep1:


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I was thinking EMT. I guess it would help if the original poster gave more details like the wiring method, building type, panel location.


----------



## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

I usually pull 2 to 4 at one time generally in the same area, we have a bunch of spinners so that makes it easy. The more you do it the faster you get and find better ways to do it.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> ...


I agree with most of this. Certainly an EC shouldn't bring their price down just because all of the sudden, they have a super fast Romex guy. 
As far as the GC is concerned, most of them look at the quality of the work and if you're fast, that's just a little bonus. Most of them don't care how fast you are unless you're behind schedule. If the GC finds a guy who'll do the job for less, good on him. But a lot of the time they come back to you because the cheap guys quality sucks, didn't pass inspections and more than anything, the electrical just has problems or doesn't work. GC's accept bids from a higher bidder all the time because they know the professionalism will be there... and that there won't be a bunch of problems.


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> ...


Jeezzz!!!! You never give up do you?

Well you figured it out....we will get the bids down to $30/hr....then you wont get any work being high priced rip off artists....then you will have to close all your doors nationally and join us......................:jester:

Then we all will start over at the bottom and work our way back up to true fair work.....


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> just about every signifigant problem we face in the industry you brought on yourselves in the name of a "quick fix" at some easy money (initially) only to have it come back and bite us all in the ass in the long run.


Sounds like IBEW rhetoric.

I understand the concept, I just don't agree with it. I trust the free enterprise system. Slowing down on purpose is what will bite us in the ass in the long run. It has already given some unions a bad reputation. 

Productivity *is* important.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> Trade magazines pass on time saving tips...
> Everyone out there reinventing the wheel... mostly in the name of timesaving and cheapening the end product.



Cheapening the end product? NO. 

Maximizing profits? YES.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Cheapening the end product? NO.
> 
> Maximizing profits? YES.


Obviously a lot of EC's cheapen their product by pushing their guys to get the job done faster than humanly possible. Usually this happens because they bid the job lower than normal and want to maximize profits. It's a slippery slope. End up with a pissed off GC, a pissed off EC and pissed off electricians.
Not a good formula.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Sounds like IBEW rhetoric.
> 
> I understand the concept, I just don't agree with it. I trust the free enterprise system. Slowing down on purpose is what will bite us in the ass in the long run. It has already given some unions a bad reputation.
> 
> Productivity *is* important.


I didn't say slow down. I said, becoming faster and more productive isn't the panacea some make it out to be. The gains from such actions are only temporary. In the end labor and those who profit from labor (contractors) lose and the loss is permanent.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Obviously a lot of EC's cheapen their product by pushing their guys to get the job done faster than humanly possible. Usually this happens because they bid the job lower than normal and want to maximize profits. It's a slippery slope. End up with a pissed off GC, a pissed off EC and pissed off electricians.
> Not a good formula.


Been there, done that. My experience has been that it's the damn GC who cares more about the price than he does about the quality. And that's the electricians fault for letting them set the precedent. But eventually some of the GC's come around and realize that quality is important when he wants the damn job finished so he can get paid.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Cheapening the end product? NO.
> 
> Maximizing profits? YES.


The profit maximization is temporary. There are plenty of recent posts here are that are clear evidence of that.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Cheapening the end product? NO.
> 
> Maximizing profits? YES.


OK so the poster in the South who until recently was still using metal boxes and soldering his splices put out a product that wasn't as good as plastic Carlons, wagos, and backstabbed .33 cent devices? 

Do any of you homeowners here look for the cheapest receptacle, the cheapest switch, the cheapest service equiptment for your OWN house?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Obviously a lot of EC's cheapen their product by pushing their guys to get the job done faster than humanly possible. Usually this happens because they bid the job lower than normal and want to maximize profits. It's a slippery slope. End up with a pissed off GC, a pissed off EC and pissed off electricians.
> Not a good formula.


...But don't discount that your E.C. LIED - they SAY they bid it lower, thay SAY they lost money (so you feel sorry for them and are beholden to them) all to make you feel better about earning peanuts while he takes the family out on his yacht...


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The profit maximization is temporary. There are plenty of recent posts here are that are clear evidence of that.


Really?

Let's say I can wire and install a ceiling fan and fish a new switch leg into an existing box. Let's say I charge $350 for this. Am I better off doing this job in 3 hours or taking all day? 

Now, I do 3 in a day like this, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.

($350 x 3 = $1050 a day, $5250, a week, $262,500 per year)

You do one a day and earn $87,500 per year. 

If I am an employer, and one day soon I will be, I'll be looking to hire the guy that can do three of these in a day. I'll also provide him with a hefty commission for getting 3 of them done in a day as well. As for the guy getting only one done in a day he becomes a liability to me and a cancer on the guy who's working his ass off. You want to be successful there's only one way to achieve this: HARD WORK.

--GOD BLESS AMERICA---


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> OK so the poster in the South who until recently was still using metal boxes and soldering his splices put out a product that wasn't as good as plastic Carlons, wagos, and backstabbed .33 cent devices?
> 
> Do any of you homeowners here look for the cheapest receptacle, the cheapest switch, the cheapest service equiptment for your OWN house?


Nope, and I tell all of my customers that I'll work on their homes as if it were my own. Unless they specifically want something cheaper because they can't afford the CADILLAC then they will get the Volkswagon. It's what they want, not what I want to do.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ...But don't discount that your E.C. LIED - they SAY they bid it lower, thay SAY they lost money (so you feel sorry for them and are beholden to them) all to make you feel better about earning peanuts while he takes the family out on his yacht...


Like the union bosses who get back room deals done and line their pockets with federal tax dollars while hundreds in local 164 sit on their asses calling me seeing if I need any help. And don't think that this isn't really happening.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ...But don't discount that your E.C. LIED - they SAY they bid it lower, thay SAY they lost money (so you feel sorry for them and are beholden to them) all to make you feel better about earning peanuts while he takes the family out on his yacht...


Haha, yeah I know. Good point. Or the whole family to Disneyland twice a year.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I didn't say slow down


That's true but I thought you implied it .





> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> ... just because we can, does it mean that we should?


If there is a more efficient way of getting a job done, I don't believe it will hurt us, as a society, in the long run.

Sure, some jobs will be eliminated but that has always been the case. 

Arguing against efficiency seems like something the government or military would do.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> ...


So in other words, 'who cares how long it takes' in now our mantra?

Bid the job for 2 guys, 4 days. If they take 5 days, so what? May be six, who cares? Sounds like a recipe for going under real quick.

The idea is to try to maintain your benchmarks, If you think you can turn an average dwelling over in a given number of hours, what's wrong with coming in under the labor hours figured?

If you've got two crews working for you, and one crew can rough in a house in 2 days, the other takes three, who do you think is gonna be up for a larger raise first?

Or would you prefer they not make even the slightest effort to become more effecient and become more productive? Maybe that's your way, LGLS, but if you think that effeciancy and productivity don't matter, you need to come into the 20th century at least.


----------



## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> That's why God invented ty wraps with mounting holes. :thumbup:


:thumbdown:I despise ty wraps on romex, i was at a job today where the last electrician tywraped most of the romex, i just went around with my cutters and cut them all out:thumbup:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Really?
> 
> Let's say I can wire and install a ceiling fan and fish a new switch leg into an existing box. Let's say I charge $350 for this. Am I better off doing this job in 3 hours or taking all day?
> 
> ...


And I say you are dead wrong.
You are not getting $350.00 a day x 3 to install ceiling fans. Never. 

When you hire an employee, the focus shifts onto depressing wages for your own benifit. Yes, you have to pay the better ones better wages and the lesser ones lesser wages, but the allaround emphasis is to pay EVERYBODY as little as possible. The less you pay, the more YOU make.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> You want to be successful there's only one way to achieve this: HARD WORK.
> 
> --GOD BLESS AMERICA---


About 6 months ago the shop super asked me if anyone on the crew would make a good foreman / crew leader...

DO you think I gave him the name of my most productive man?

You are full of chit if you really believe life is that simple...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Like the union bosses who get back room deals done and line their pockets with federal tax dollars while hundreds in local 164 sit on their asses calling me seeing if I need any help. And don't think that this isn't really happening.


You sound jealous...


"Now seating Mr. Bitter... table for ONE!"


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> That's true but I thought you implied it .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well think about it 220/221... we're all computerized now. Info at anyone's fingertips - no more paper or researching... millions of jobs lost, little manufacturing to speak of, corporations posting record profits, the gap between middle class and wealthy getting ever wider, the middle class struggling to maintain... a record number of millionaires and most of them in the banking industries that produce nothing... is this pattern really the RIGHT one?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well think about it 220/221... we're all computerized now. Info at anyone's fingertips - no more paper or researching... millions of jobs lost, little manufacturing to speak of, corporations posting record profits, the gap between middle class and wealthy getting ever wider, the middle class struggling to maintain... a record number of millionaires and most of them in the banking industries that produce nothing... is this pattern really the RIGHT one?


And you think the organized labor movement is going to stem that tide? :laughing:

For the record I agree those are serious problems and challenges this nation faces, but I don't see the labor movement doing much to stop it. You're talking about fighting against globalism here.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So in other words, 'who cares how long it takes' in now our mantra?


I dodn't say that. The 100% exact polar opposite isn't the ONLY happy medium. Of course, anyone not 100% on board with what the boss says MUST be that in your mind... right?



> Bid the job for 2 guys, 4 days. If they take 5 days, so what? May be six, who cares? Sounds like a recipe for going under real quick.


It would be, but is the ONY other alternative to work like a rabid dog, and believe that if you do... somehow you'll be proportionately compensated for it?

Not for nothing, but we're all familiar with the fact that contractors are liars and expert manipulators... right? I mean, even the self-professed "religious" ones, the "Christians' like Mike holt are ALL in this game for the money... you DO know that, right???




> The idea is to try to maintain your benchmarks, If you think you can turn an average dwelling over in a given number of hours, what's wrong with coming in under the labor hours figured?


Nothing... but do that twenty times and see how your paycheck changes...



> If you've got two crews working for you, and one crew can rough in a house in 2 days, the other takes three, who do you think is gonna be up for a larger raise first?


Do you really think it works that way? Maybe in a perfect world it does but the fact is, if you get another development both crews will still be working, and crew # 2 will NEVER see the raise that accurately reflects their superior production. 



> Or would you prefer they not make even the slightest effort to become more effecient and become more productive? Maybe that's your way, LGLS, but if you think that effeciancy and productivity don't matter, you need to come into the 20th century at least.


In this 21st century, 45,000 people die annually because they work for people who don't think they deserve health insurance. Business competitors... supposedly touting "free market capatilism" at all costs collude into trade or industry groups, hire lobbiests to bribe (legally) congressmen and senators to tilt the scales of justice and the tax laws in their favor. Your taxes and my taxes are used to subsidize companies that move to foreign untaxable lands... Even **** Cheney's company is now based where it doesn't pay one dime in tax to the U.S. while it receives no-bid contracts from the government paid for by you and me... 

Reagen & Bush reduced taxes on the wealthy and the corporations and removed long-standing banking regulations and look where we are now...

As a country. A country where more than 90% of us are employees... do you really thing the way things are is the best we can do?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> And you think the organized labor movement is going to stem that tide? :laughing:
> 
> For the record I agree those are serious problems and challenges this nation faces, but I don't see the labor movement doing much to stop it. You're talking about fighting against globalism here.


Pete - we do not have to fight globalism...


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Dude, pulling home runs is an art form. 
I'm the Edvard Munch of home run roping.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> And you think the organized labor movement is going to stem that tide? :laughing:


Do you think UNorganized labor will?



> For the record I agree those are serious problems and challenges this nation faces, but I don't see the labor movement doing much to stop it. You're talking about fighting against globalism here.


Yes, that's correct. But because you are unorganized, like the weekend the vacation or overtime or any other labor law, YOU will have no contribution to changing it... You will just gain from the efforts of others. (Which pertty much makes YOU the socialist...)


----------



## N844AA (Feb 3, 2010)

JoeKP said:


> :thumbdown:I despise ty wraps on romex, i was at a job today where the last electrician tywraped most of the romex, i just went around with my cutters and cut them all out:thumbup:


What possible freak'n difference does it make whether the Romex is stapled, ty-wrapped or slid into a stacker? Seriously, why do you care? It makes no difference at all. Geeeeezzzzz!

:wallbash:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Pete - we do not have to fight globalism...


Well, what do you propose then? Out of that list you made, I believe the steady loss of manufacturing is one of the most devastating and vexing problem this nation faces. I attribute much or most of that to globalism and global corporations.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes, that's correct. But because you are unorganized, like the weekend the vacation or overtime or any other labor law, YOU will have no contribution to changing it... You will just gain from the efforts of others. (Which pertty much makes YOU the socialist...)


Right. A socialist. Ok. :laughing: 

Nevermind. I should have known the trouble this was going to cause.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

N844AA said:


> What possible freak'n difference does it make whether the Romex is stapled, ty-wrapped or slid into a stacker? Seriously, why do you care? It makes no difference at all. Geeeeezzzzz!
> 
> :wallbash:


Why ya gettin all wallbashy? If it doesn't matter why do you care?
Anyway, it does matter. Because with a clean installation you use the right materials in the right places. I aint stapling seven nm's to one stud. And I aint putting only one nm in a wire stacker.

Does ty-wrapping=zip ties?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Right. A socialist. Ok. :laughing:
> 
> Nevermind. I should have known the trouble this was going to cause.


Think about it...


----------



## bdeots (Feb 10, 2010)

:bangin:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You sound jealous...
> 
> 
> "Now seating Mr. Bitter... table for ONE!"


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Think about it...



Yeah, I see your point but I also see the time and I don't feel like debating about it anymore.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Haha, yeah I know. Good point. Or the whole family to Disneyland twice a year.


Yeah, those damn bosses - the ones who provide jobs - they suck. Them and all the damn CEO's who have been appointed by the stock holders they suck too. Screw them, man.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And I say you are dead wrong.
> You are not getting $350.00 a day x 3 to install ceiling fans. Never.
> 
> When you hire an employee, the focus shifts onto depressing wages for your own benifit. Yes, you have to pay the better ones better wages and the lesser ones lesser wages, but the allaround emphasis is to pay EVERYBODY as little as possible. The less you pay, the more YOU make.


Nonsense, if this employee wants to earn more than what the other EC's in the area are offering than he's going to need to produce to keep those wages that I'm paying. Otherwise, he'll be forced to work for those other bums. 

Not everyone can afford $350 per fan install with a fished switch leg and dual fan speed/ dimmer switch, but for those who can they get a damn good install and usually they have me back to do other work.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It would be, but is the ONY other alternative to work like a rabid dog, and believe that if you do... somehow you'll be proportionately compensated for it?


No one can take advantage of you without your permission. If someone wants to work like a rabid dog with a carrot on a stick dangling in front of them, well, that's their choice.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not for nothing, but we're all familiar with the fact that contractors are liars and expert manipulators... right? I mean, even the self-professed "religious" ones, the "Christians' like Mike holt are ALL in this game for the money... you DO know that, right???


So now I'm a liar and expert manipulator, solely by default. I'm also a rat solely because I'm not 'A Brother'. Thanks for being so narrow-minded.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nothing... but do that twenty times and see how your paycheck changes...


Hate to burst your bubble, but more than once in my time as a waged employee I recieved an increase in pay. Not because I was scheduled to receive one. I EARNED it.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you really think it works that way? Maybe in a perfect world it does but the fact is, if you get another development both crews will still be working, and crew # 2 will NEVER see the raise that accurately reflects their superior production.


Sorry, but that's the way it really is in the real world. Hard workers get paid more. Slackers get paid less, and the worst get sent packing.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> In this 21st century,.......?


And what does all this have to do with the OP wanting to become more efficient and productive?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You sound jealous...
> 
> 
> "Now seating Mr. Bitter... table for ONE!"


Do you think I just made all that up? As if I didn't work for a union employer and was told that they weren't taking any new members? Well, that's exactly what happened. I did enjoy those nice union wages for awhile before I went out on my own which I knew I was going to do eventually. 

Two of the guys in the shop who did get in the union eventually graduated from that lounge in Paramus they call a school and had to move on when they got their 'A' cards. Why did they move on? Because the employer could no longer afford to keep them at those rates. 

I spoke to one of the guys a week or two ago and for awhile he was working on the new football stadium. He's been laid off now since November and he tells me the waiting list is 20 pages long. Gee, he's probably psyched to be in the union right about now.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, I see your point but I also see the time and I don't feel like debating about it anymore.


Another time then?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

_"Sorry, but that's the way it really is in the real world. Hard workers get paid more. Slackers get paid less, and the worst get sent packing."_

He must like it the commie way where everyone is equal.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Yeah, those damn bosses - the ones who provide jobs - they suck. Them and all the damn CEO's who have been appointed by the stock holders they suck too. Screw them, man.


Bosses do not provide jobs. They're brokers... "madames" if you will. If they have 10 positions to offer, it's because they got 10 jobs. If they have 5 positions to offer, it's because they have 5 jobs, and that doesn't mean the 5 who are let-go are now "slugs."


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> He must like it the commie way where everyone is equal.


And overpaid.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bosses do not provide jobs. They're brokers... "madames" if you will. If they have 10 positions to offer, it's because they got 10 jobs. If they have 5 positions to offer, it's because they have 5 jobs, and that doesn't mean the 5 who are let-go are now "slugs."


Q: Who signs your checks? 

A: Your boss.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Nonsense, if this employee wants to earn more than what the other EC's in the area are offering than he's going to need to produce to keep those wages that I'm paying. Otherwise, he'll be forced to work for those other bums.
> 
> Not everyone can afford $350 per fan install with a fished switch leg and dual fan speed/ dimmer switch, but for those who can they get a damn good install and usually they have me back to do other work.


Wonderful, I'll keep that in mind. Just remember where you keyhole saw is and your razor knife, while I direct 10 ton cranes carrying more than you'll ever earn in your life.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Another time then?


Yeah, another time.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Q: Who signs your checks?
> 
> A: Your boss.


Q: Who put the money in the account?
A: I did, And his, and his overhead, and his profit, and everything else.

The conductor does not make the symphony... the orchestra does.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wonderful, I'll keep that in mind. Just remember where you keyhole saw is and your razor knife, while I direct 10 ton cranes carrying more than you'll ever earn in your life.


Oh, okay. :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, another time.


Will Peter D. really return?

Will LGLS ever make a point?

Tune in again tomorrow to find out! 


Same BatTime!

Same BatStation!

dadaDaDaDADadadaDADada (drum roll...........) Batman!


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Q: Who put the money in the account?
> A: I did, And his, and his overhead, and his profit, and everything else.
> 
> The conductor does not make the symphony... the orchestra does.


Did you pay for the crane too?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Did you pay for the crane too?


Of course he did. His conniving, money-hungry boss deducted it from his paycheck. You don't really expect _the company_ to pay for a crane, do you?

After all, it was the employee in the field that actually used the crane, not the office staff. So doesn't it stand to reason that the field employee be made to pay for it?:laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Of course he did. His conniving, money-hungry boss deducted it from his paycheck. You don't really expect _the company_ to pay for a crane, do you?
> 
> After all, it was the employee in the field that actually used the crane, not the office staff. So doesn't it stand to reason that the field employee be made to pay for it?:laughing:


The office staff was probably off living it up somewhere out on the golf course from all the money they just made selling LGLS the crane..


----------



## PORUS (Jan 23, 2010)

Zimmer86 said:


> Yeah pretty much everyone at my last company used, or tried stilts for pulling romex. It takes some getting used to thats for sure, but once you do its so much faster. There is quite a few guys that I worked with that were so used to em' they would walk up and down stairs. If they dropped there wire or tools they could get down and pick them up without taking the stilts off.


Stilts are illegal in Ontario, and possibly the whole of Canada. Just throwing that out there for general knowledge.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Did you pay for the crane too?


Absolutely not, the customer pays for everything, everyone knows that.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Q: Who signs your checks?
> 
> A: Your boss.


Q: How did he get that money?

A: By selling my skills and my effort and my time, and marking it up to also pay for his.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Q: How did he get that money?
> 
> A: By selling my skills and my effort and my time, and marking it up to also pay for his.


He got that money by taking a risk and you, like me are just replaceable tools.

I really cannot believe how your mind works.


----------



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Plan it, box it, drill it, PIPE IT, pull it, splice it, ring it... your done!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Q: How did he get that money?
> 
> A: By selling my skills and my effort and my time, and marking it up to also pay for his.


 
Q: Why does he have your skills to sell in the first place?

A: You sold them to him for an agreed-upon price.



Q: What if I don't like the way the entire process between employer, employee and customer is working?

A: You are free to end the process at any time.



Q: And how does he know what your skills are? 

A: You show him.



Q: How does he sell your skills?

A: With salesmanship (something you don't deal with in your job).



Q: How does he know if you're worth more?

A: You prove it to him you are.



Q: How do you prove to him you are worth more?

A: By _becoming_ worth more.



Q: Why does the boss make more than you?

A: Because he's the one taking the financial risk.



Q: What does all this have to do with the OP?

A: Maybe he's wanting to prove to his boss he's worth more.



Q: What else would this have to do with the OP?

A: Maybe he's a business owner himself and is wanting to increase efficiency and productivity.


Q: What is the sum of LGLS's response?

A: F#*& it. I'm worth a ton of money no matter what. Besides, increasing my productivity and efficiency will only cause me to kill myself in a race to the bottom. My boss is an expert liar and manipulator, and I refuse to become a better worker. The world's not perfect, but I expect it to become that way because of me. No matter what I do, I get paid the same, so it's _Que Sera Sera_ for me, folks.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So there you have it - the quickest ways to run homeruns.
> 
> So now, let's change gears a bit and think for a moment... just because we can, does it mean that we should?
> Every manufacturer comes out with a new product, touting it's "time saving /labor saving benifits."
> ...


 


Your words are true and clearly illustrated by the Romex revolution, where conduit was replaced by romex, and electricians were replaced by flextricians. BillW.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Your words are true and clearly illustrated by the Romex revolution, where conduit was replaced by romex, and electricians were replaced by flextricians. BillW.


We are not artists and the customer should not have to pay extra just because you want to be one.


----------



## acwservices (Jun 17, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I dodn't say that. The 100% exact polar opposite isn't the ONLY happy medium. Of course, anyone not 100% on board with what the boss says MUST be that in your mind... right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> We are not artists and the customer should not have to pay extra just because you want to be one.


No kidding huh. Some of these guys put way more value on what they do than reality would dictate. Other than a small minority of electricians NOBODY gives a crap. Do the lights come on when you hit that switch? Yes. Is it safe and legal so that my house will not burn down. Yes. End of story.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

JoeKP said:


> :thumbdown:I despise ty wraps on romex, i was at a job today where the last electrician tywraped most of the romex, i just went around with my cutters and cut them all out:thumbup:


Thats just weird.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> We are not artists and the customer should not have to pay extra just because you want to be one.


 
You are a clear leader in the " race to the bottom" . One of your customers had to pay for 4 inch sealtite and connectors because conduit was too artistic. BillW


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> You are a clear leader in the " race to the bottom" BillW.


Whatever you want to think. 

Let me ask you, is it you're belief that the customers should pay more for the job because you personally like pipe more than cable?

If so I have to imagine you would have no problem paying extra if you brought your car in for a scratch to be repaired but the auto body shop decided to paint the whole car becuse they feel it is a better job?


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Peter D said:


> ...I agree those are serious problems and challenges this nation faces, but I don't see the labor movement doing much to stop it.


Well, perhaps that is where the problem lies then. The not seeing.
What became of all the manufacturing jobs that used to exist in New England? 

Low tech, industrial work that paid enough in wages and benefits for the man with no special skills to support his family and pay taxes and in general be a part of the community rather than just a drain on it.
All without assistance from anyone else.



> You're talking about fighting against globalism here.


Think globally. Act locally.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Whatever you want to think.
> 
> Let me ask you, is it you're belief that the customers should pay more for the job because you personally like pipe more than cable?
> 
> If so I have to imagine you would have no problem paying extra if you brought your car in for a scratch to be repaired but the auto body shop decided to paint the whole car becuse they feel it is a better job?


Don't forget they also need to detail the interior, power-wash the engine, vacuum out the trunk and install fresh air in the tires. :thumbup:


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Whatever you want to think.
> 
> Let me ask you, is it you're belief that the customers should pay more for the job because you personally like pipe more than cable?
> 
> If so I have to imagine you would have no problem paying extra if you brought your car in for a scratch to be repaired but the auto body shop decided to paint the whole car becuse they feel it is a better job?


When you go to the supermart do you have difficulty in the produce department recognizing the apples and oranges?BillW.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Don't forget they also need to detail the interior, power-wash the engine, vacuum out the trunk and install fresh air in the tires. :thumbup:


Don't forget there's no rush to get this done either.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> When you go to the supermart do you have difficulty in the produce department recognizing the apples and oranges?BillW.


Not at all.

Care to explain why it's OK to run up the customers bill as a electrician but it is not OK if you are a body man servicing that electricians car?

I guess the body man does not deserve that 'living wage' you all talk about.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> When you go to the supermart do you have difficulty in the produce department recognizing the apples and oranges?BillW.


 
I thought it was a darn fine comparison myself.

Maybe you have a McIntosh apple, and Bob has a Red Delicious, but they're both apples.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Do you think I just made all that up? As if I didn't work for a union employer and was told that they weren't taking any new members? Well, that's exactly what happened. I did enjoy those nice union wages for awhile before I went out on my own which I knew I was going to do eventually.
> 
> Two of the guys in the shop who did get in the union eventually graduated from that lounge in Paramus they call a school and had to move on when they got their 'A' cards. Why did they move on? Because the employer could no longer afford to keep them at those rates.
> 
> I spoke to one of the guys a week or two ago and for awhile he was working on the new football stadium. He's been laid off now since November and he tells me the waiting list is 20 pages long. Gee, he's probably psyched to be in the union right about now.


Whereas the nonunion sector has 100% employment at better wages and benefits too, right? :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I thought it was a darn fine comparison myself.


Why thank you.

I think we both know the reason he claims my example is apples and oranges is a result of that one way entitlement gene. :whistling2:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Whereas the nonunion sector has 100% employment at better wages and benefits too, right? :laughing::laughing:


Of course not. We all live under bridges, drive 1986 Yamaha dirt bikes, and eat nothing but hot dogs and CheesyMac.

This is because we're all in a race to the bottom, and willing to kill ourselves for 43¢ an hour.

Magnettica: I'm willing to give up the CheesyMac, so unless you're willing to forgo the hot dogs, I think I'm gonna win the race. :whistling2:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Of course not. We all live under bridges, drive 1986 Yamaha dirt bikes, and eat nothing but hot dogs and CheesyMac.


I think my wife is making homemade mac and cheese today, I thought it was because we liked it now I know it is just because I am non-union. My wife must be so ashamed. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

acwservices said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> > I dodn't say that. The 100% exact polar opposite isn't the ONLY happy medium. Of course, anyone not 100% on board with what the boss says MUST be that in your mind... right?
> ...


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I think my wife is making homemade mac and cheese today, I thought it was because we liked it now I know it is just because I am non-union. My wife must be so ashamed. :laughing:


You have a good wife cause homemade mac and cheese>Cheesymac.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Homemade mac and cheese is great but even the big ol' frozen Stouffers is incredible. 

See u guys later, I'm off to the non-union operated Dunkin' Donuts.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Don't forget they also need to detail the interior, power-wash the engine, vacuum out the trunk and install fresh air in the tires. :thumbup:


Oscar Wilde said that "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" but I think he was being sarcastic when he said it! And he didn't need a smiley to express his feelings!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> .........See u guys later, I'm off to the non-union operated Dunkin' Donuts.


Be sure to haggle 'em down on their prices!







I'm sure any of the rats working there are more than happy to subsibize your doughnut purchase.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Care to explain why it's OK to run up the customers bill as a electrician but it is not OK if you are a body man servicing that electricians car?
> 
> I guess the body man does not deserve that 'living wage' you all talk about.


If memory serves me well (And I welcome correction) on a project of yours of which you were very proud ,you had your T/M customer pay for 4 inch sealtite and 4 connectors which you chose to use instead of conduit .. conduit would be significantly less costly , so your preference for the more expensive sealtite belies your newfound concern for the customer's cost. we both know the real reason for your choice was not the time constraints that you cited but I see no need to repeat what I said at the time. I only remind you that your concern for the customers cost is not your main concern but is just a crutch for today's debate. BillW


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> If memory serves me well (And I welcome correction) on a project of yours of which you were very proud ,you had your T/M customer pay for 4 inch sealtite and 4 connectors which you chose to use instead of conduit .. conduit would be significantly less costly ,


Good memory and true.

Two things you leave out.

1) The customer was there watching us and was more concerned with the schedule then the cost of parts.

2) The labor saved would balance out the stock.

(Yeah I know, you say you can pipe as fast as I can flex, I say you are full of it)




> so your preference for the more expensive sealtite belies your newfound concern for the customer's cost. we both know the real reason for your choice was not the time constraints that you cited but I see no need to repeat what I said at the time. I only remind you that your concern for the customers cost is not your main concern but is just a crutch for today's debate. BillW


Well you are off the mark but I did try to answer what you asked me.

Now how about you do the same and answer this question I asked you?



> Care to explain why it's OK to run up the customers bill as a electrician but it is not OK if you are a body man servicing that electricians car?


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Good memory and true.
> 
> Two things you leave out.
> 
> ...


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Good memory and true.
> 
> Two things you leave out.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> If I understand you correctly you believe that wiring a house with Romex for example is a great deal more economical than wiring the same house with emt. I will concede that it requires a lot more experience to use emt and that lower levels of skill apply to stringing Romex. The wiring and connecting are the same in both cases. So then the difference is between piping and roping.It has been many years since I personally piped a house but when I did , back in the fifties I piped in a three bedroom bungalow in 12 Man hours I was in no way the fastest guy around. I have seen some Chicago Flatters( as we called them) a lot faster than me. But we made a fair profit on my efforts. I would assume that current labor would not be significantly different.I have no idea what kind of labor units apply to romex. When I went to estimating school that data was not available.So the main difference in my mind between pipe and rope is the level of experience of the installer I would like to see some labor data from a credible source before I would rethink my view. BillW


Bill, as good as you think you and your pipe buddies are any experienced 'ropers' will smoke you. 

If the customer wants pipe fine, that is great. If they just want a code compliant electrical system they get cable, it is their right to choose.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> > Good memory and true.
> ...


----------



## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

What about the time pulling wire through those pipes? I won't debate that you can rough pipe a home in X amount of hours, but isn't time spent on the rough just transfered to more time later? Or are you saying that you bent the whole house AND pulled wire in 12 hours?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

JTMEYER said:


> What about the time pulling wire through those pipes? I won't debate that you can rough pipe a home in X amount of hours, but isn't time spent on the rough just transfered to more time later? Or are you saying that you bent the whole house AND pulled wire in 12 hours?


Good point. Running all the wire takes time too. I've never emt'd a whole house but I've had to flex a few. Takes a lot longer than roping.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> When you hire an employee, the focus shifts onto depressing wages for your own benifit. Yes, you have to pay the better ones better wages and the lesser ones lesser wages, but the allaround emphasis is to pay EVERYBODY as little as possible. The less you pay, the more YOU make.


You have have been indoctrinated. You are simply spouting the party line. 

Unless you have experience owning and operating a business you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Employees, owners and customers.....*Everyone* must benefit for a contractor to be successful.





> When you hire an employee, the focus shifts onto depressing wages for your own benifit.


When you hire an employee, the focus shifts to generating revenue. This revenue needs to cover expense and earn a profit. One of the best ways to ensure that is to use productive work methods. Time is money so don't waste time.



> Yes, you have to pay the better ones better wages and the lesser ones lesser wages, but the allaround emphasis is to pay EVERYBODY as little as possible.


The all around emphisis is to pay everybody as much as posible. You want employees to feel like they are getting their share. A happy employee will be more productive and generally more pleasant to be around.



> The less you pay, the more YOU make.


Not necessarily. You are assuming that all employees produce equally. People are WAY different. Some people....a lot of people, will actually lose money for you.


Also....baked mac and cheese rocks, I can rope a house in 1/3 the time of EMT, and I like this forum because it's not like the other one.


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Perhaps it would help to examine our differences . If I understand you correctly you believe that wiring a house with Romex for example is a great deal more economical than wiring the same house with emt. I will concede that it requires a lot more experience to use emt and that lower levels of skill apply to stringing Romex. The wiring and connecting are the same in both cases. So then the difference is between piping and roping.It has been many years since I personally piped a house but when I did , back in the fifties I piped in a three bedroom bungalow in 12 Man hours I was in no way the fastest guy around. I have seen some Chicago Flatters( as we called them) a lot faster than me. But we made a fair profit on my efforts. I would assume that current labor would not be significantly different.I have no idea what kind of labor units apply to romex. When I went to estimating school that data was not available.So the main difference in my mind between pipe and rope is the level of experience of the installer *I would like to see some labor data from a credible source* before I would rethink my view. BillW


Well here ya go boss...straight from NECA...

14/2 - 30/M

EMT 1/2 - 4.5/C or 45/M
THHN #14 - 5/M

simple math....
RX - 30 hrs....
pipe - 50hrs....now this did not include conn, coups, straps, etc....just pipe and wire.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> If memory serves me well (And I welcome correction) on a project of yours of which you were very proud ,you had your T/M customer pay for 4 inch sealtite and 4 connectors which you chose to use instead of conduit .. conduit would be significantly less costly , so your preference for the more expensive sealtite belies your newfound concern for the customer's cost. we both know the real reason for your choice was not the time constraints that you cited but I see no need to repeat what I said at the time. I only remind you that your concern for the customers cost is not your main concern but is just a crutch for today's debate. BillW


 
:thumbup:
Well stated! It's like when you see umpteen extention boxes on a 1900.. because the "JUNIOR MECHANIC" cannot bend an offset... :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> > Good memory and true.
> ...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> One thing you can bank on - since homes went from EMT to NM the cost to the purchaser did NOT come DOWN. BUt the installer made less, the contractor made less so... WHO made more?


Of course the evil owners did, they are the devil. 

At the same time peoples wages went up, health insurance went up, gas went up supplies went up.

You have very selective knowledge of economics. 


You have mentioned a number of time how people are just jealous, if anything I think you have proven you are jealous of company owners. Maybe you should start your own shop.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> One thing you can bank on - since homes went from EMT to NM the cost to the purchaser did NOT come DOWN. BUt the installer made less, the contractor made less so... WHO made more?


 
I'd like to see some numbers on that.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> wwilson174 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing you can bank on - since homes went from EMT to NM the cost to the purchaser did NOT come DOWN. BUt the installer made less, the contractor made less so... WHO made more?
> ...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> You have have been indoctrinated. You are simply spouting the party line.


And you are not?



> Unless you have experience owning and operating a business you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Not true - it would be true if I were a clueless merit shop employee, but I'm not. I know your game, I know your propoganda, I know your methods. VERY familiar with all of it. You state opinion as if it were fact. You quote business models as if it were to everyone's advantage, when in the end it's all designed to screw labor.




> Employees, owners and customers.....*Everyone* must benefit for a contractor to be successful.


It's the DEGREE and the PROPORTION we're discussing here. Give me .01 cent and I've "benifited" in your warped mind...



> When you hire an employee, the focus shifts to generating revenue. This revenue needs to cover expense and earn a profit. One of the best ways to ensure that is to use productive work methods. Time is money so don't waste time.


Another process is devalue the employee and don't let them know you're making more per hour than each of them are. Tell them you're losing money. Tell them your insurance is 40 billion a year, tell them you have 650,000.00 in overhead, and tell them the GC's never pay you. Make jokes about how if you win the lottery you could stay in business another 20 years. 

C'mon 220, you're not talking to a Pennsylvania backwoods imbred hick here.



> The all around emphisis is to pay everybody as much as posible. You want employees to feel like they are getting their share. A happy employee will be more productive and generally more pleasant to be around.


The all around emphasis in ANY business is to pay yourself the most possible and pay labor the least possible to keep your business viable. Who the phuck do you think you're kidding here? A 1st year green helper? Are you really accustomed to dealing with employees that are this gulliable? Did you really believe I'd buy this load of malarky you're selling here? 


> Not necessarily. You are assuming that all employees produce equally. People are WAY different. Some people....a lot of people, will actually lose money for you.


People who lose money for you get a ticket to the unemployment line. Then you hire a money maker. That's just business. Whether a person is a business owner or an employee, there are positives and negatives to both situations. However one situates themselves, don't sit there and decry every possible negative to make your case without framing the entire picture with all the positives as well. 



> Also....baked mac and cheese rocks, I can rope a house in 1/3 the time of EMT, and I like this forum because it's not like the other one.


Have you ever done an EMT house?

I couldn't fathom the process involved in installing EMT in a wood framed structure, but it is of course possible. I'd like to someday go to Chicago and see it happen. 

Much in the same way a commercial or industrial electrician gets to know the enviroment and the material, so do residential ropers, who, let's face it, are scared of conduit because it's not easy and not flexible and they're just not familiar with it.

And homemade Macaroni and cheese is the cat's meow, but one of those dishes that does NOT taste better the next day...


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> ..........Maybe you should start your own shop.


 
Let's sell tickets to *that* show.........
You KNOW we'll make a lot of money!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Of course the evil owners did, they are the devil.


Not evil... more like cunning.



> At the same time peoples wages went up, health insurance went up, gas went up supplies went up.


So naturally the quality went down... 




> You have very selective knowledge of economics.


If anyone is suffering from tunnel vision it is you Bob.



> You have mentioned a number of time how people are just jealous, if anything I think you have proven you are jealous of company owners. Maybe you should start your own shop.


The people I refer to as jealous aren't the company owners Bob. I use different terms for them. I hold no Ill will towards responsible respectable businesspeople. It's the nonunion "merit shop" snakes in the grass who profit from undermining labor I have a great distain for... and their little suck up yes men who hitch on their bandwagon for the ride...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And you are not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you even live on this planet, where do you get this much BS?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'd like to see some numbers on that.


Once a home is built it becomes real estate - there are WAY too many variables that determine it's price and worth ranging from what schools to what neighborhood... but I don't see houses in the Chicago 'burbs costing any more than here on Long Island.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Much in the same way a commercial or industrial electrician gets to know the enviroment and the material, so do residential ropers, who, let's face it, are scared of conduit because it's not easy and not flexible and they're just not familiar with it.


Here's a piece of 4" conduit and we need to install 100' of it across this warehouse here to this other panel. Gee, did you bring the flathead screwdriver to tighten down all the couplings & connectors? 

The real tough part is getting up here on this scissor lift. I've worked in houses so long I'm not sure if I'd be able to lift it and steer it at the same time. Do you union guys have special technicians who do the steering and lifting? 

And you know cutting strut, using spring nuts, and handling 1/4 x 20 bolts is not something the average "residential guy" could ever figure out. Hell, we struggle with changing out sawzall blades. Are you guys allowed to use sawzalls, or do you have to cut each piece by hand because it's labor friendly? 

Then comes the tough part: measuring for the length of the conductors. You're right, we would never be able to do that. We'd probably all ask for a 250' rolls of 3/0 copper. Then we would probably forget all together about the little plastic bushings because we don't need those for sump pump outlets. 

You're right, there's no way we could handle installing conduit because it doesn't flex. :no:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not evil... more like cunning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are as entertaining as always, little you say has any basis in the real world but it is entertaining none the less. :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not evil... more like cunning.


 
No. We're pure evil because, according to the Law of LGLS, we're expert manipulators and liars. That's not cunning... that's evil.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So naturally the quality went down...


Again, only according to the Law of LGLS.






LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If anyone is suffering from tunnel vision it is you Bob.


Once again, the Law of LGLS applies.





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The people I refer to as jealous aren't the company owners Bob. I use different terms for them. I hold no Ill will towards responsible respectable businesspeople. It's the nonunion "merit shop" snakes in the grass who profit from undermining labor I have a great distain for... and their little suck up yes men who hitch on their bandwagon for the ride...


Yep, that's us evil ones..... manipulative lairs made out of rat meat.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Let's sell tickets to *that* show.........
> You KNOW we'll make a lot of money!


Well at least now you've found your niche... :whistling2: Lord knows what I do is better money than your kitchen renovations... :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Once a home is built it becomes real estate - there are WAY too many variables that determine it's price and worth ranging from what schools to what neighborhood... but I don't see houses in the Chicago 'burbs costing any more than here on Long Island.


So in other words what you said before was just a guess on your part.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well at least now you've found your niche... :whistling2: Lord knows what I do is better money than your kitchen renovations... :laughing:


And, uh, exactly what is it you do?






I mean, besides rock the boat on internet forums?


















Oh, that's right. No matter* what* you do, it's better than us.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Here's a piece of 4" conduit and we need to install 100' of it across this warehouse here to this other panel. Gee, did you bring the flathead screwdriver to tighten down all the couplings & connectors?
> 
> The real tough part is getting up here on this scissor lift. I've worked in houses so long I'm not sure if I'd be able to lift it and steer it at the same time. Do you union guys have special technicians who do the steering and lifting?
> 
> ...


C'mon give me some credit...

Residential is a beginner's market. Ametuers. 3-way switch problems... grounding and bonding issues... most of it done by greenies... or day laborers...


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well at least now you've found your niche... :whistling2: Lord knows what I do is better money than your kitchen renovations... :laughing:


Then why are you preoccupied with what others do if you've got all your s hit together?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shouldn't a good electrician be able to measure, bend and cut pipe and run a little bit of romex too?

Why is that too much too ask?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon give me some credit...
> 
> Residential is a beginner's market. Ametuers. 3-way switch problems... grounding and bonding issues... most of it done by greenies... or day laborers...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most union electricians start by getting coffee? Maybe installing a switch or two here and there?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> > I've worked in a few homes here in NJ and never once have I seen an old house wired in conduit. So where exactly are these homes that went from EMT to NM exactly? Also, why use EMT when galvanized rigid would be much more durable and take much, much longer.
> ...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> So in other words what you said before was just a guess on your part.


What I said has more basis in fact that ANYTHING you say.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon give me some credit...
> 
> Residential is a beginner's market. Ametuers. 3-way switch problems... grounding and bonding issues... most of it done by greenies... or day laborers...



Yeah installing 7000 troughers in an office building is rocket science.

Placing switch gear as designed and drawn by others more rocket science.

Remembering the deduction on the 4" shoe more rocket science.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No. We're pure evil because, according to the Law of LGLS, we're expert manipulators and liars. That's not cunning... that's evil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well to be fair 480I'm not referring to the "one man and a van" shops...

(If you can call that a shop...)


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What I said has more basis in fact that ANYTHING you say.



I am rubber and you are glue ..... :001_tongue::001_tongue:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Then why are you preoccupied with what others do if you've got all your s hit together?


He's not only got his shît together, he's making sandwiches for us.:laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Shouldn't a good electrician be able to measure, bend and cut pipe and run a little bit of romex too?
> 
> Why is that too much too ask?


Conduit bending is not something that is learned over night. It takes a lot of practice and knowledge to get good at it. School can teach you all of these things or you can buy an Ugly's book and practice bending conduit in your backyard. Your measurements more than anything need to be precise.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon give me some credit...
> 
> Residential is a beginner's market. Ametuers. 3-way switch problems... grounding and bonding issues... most of it done by greenies... or day laborers...


Residential 3-way switch... problems? Sounds like a strictly commercial guy is on the jobsite.
:laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Then why are you preoccupied with what others do if you've got all your s hit together?


Should I go through life with blinders on and ignore everything thats going on around me? You'd like that wouldn't you?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Should I go through life with blinders on and ignore everything thats going on around me? You'd like that wouldn't you?


Then why do you care what other people do?

It isn't affecting you!

All that stress will kill you.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Shouldn't a good electrician be able to measure, bend and cut pipe and run a little bit of romex too?


Absolutely.


> Why is that too much too ask?


Do you think a residential contractor even looks for "good electricians?" Do you think "levittown electric" wants to pay for skills it doesn't have a use for?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Magnettica said:
> 
> 
> > I have worked in houses built in every era and have NEVER EVER seen a house in conduit.
> ...


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah installing 7000 troughers in an office building is rocket science.
> 
> Placing switch gear as designed and drawn by others more rocket science.
> 
> Remembering the deduction on the 4" shoe more rocket science.


Yep..... commercial and industrial work can be easily done by a trained monkey too.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Conduit bending is not something that is learned over night. It takes a lot of practice and knowledge to get good at it. School can teach you all of these things or you can buy an Ugly's book and practice bending conduit in your backyard. Your measurements more than anything need to be precise.


What? Man, it's not _that_ hard. It takes practice and knowledge to anything in this trade.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well to be fair 480I'm not referring to the "one man and a van" shops...
> 
> (If you can call that a shop...)


 
I see. I'm not evil, I'm not a liar, and I'm not an expert manipulator.

That all comes automatically the day I hire my first employee.


Gotcha! :thumbsup: Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most union electricians start by getting coffee? Maybe installing a switch or two here and there?


You think an apprentice gets coffee for 8 hours a day?
I like to start them with pipebending and layout with an emphasis on planning to make the wire pull easy...


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> Do you think a residential contractor even looks for "good electricians?" Do you think "levittown electric" wants to pay for skills it doesn't have a use for?


I don't know. I've only worked for contractors who do both resi and commercial. But from what I've experienced they want "good electricians" on their residential jobs, not day laborers.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Should I go through life with blinders on and ignore everything thats going on around me? You'd like that wouldn't you?


I'm just saying that since I've gone into business for myself if there isn't an upside to doing something (like debating politics or whatever), than what's the point of me getting into it? How do I benefit from the discussion? That's all. 

Do you think there's an upside to your discussing your point of view with the union?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Yep..... commercial and industrial work can be easily done by a trained monkey too.




Is that one of your employees?


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon 220, you're not talking to a Pennsylvania backwoods imbred hick here.
> 
> *Man...that is HARSH!!!! Plain and simple......*
> 
> ...


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Is that one of your employees?


 
No. I don't have employees. You know I'm telling the truth because I'm not a liar yet. That will happen when I first hire someone.

Actually, it's Bob. :laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> What? Man, it's not _that_ hard. It takes practice and knowledge to anything in this trade.


I agree it's not that hard, but it does take time to get good at it and planning for boxes, box fill, pulling wires, etc.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Actually, it's Bob. :laughing:


:laughing:

That ain't me, this is me


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

480sparky said:


> No. I don't have employees. You know I'm telling the truth because I'm not a liar yet. That will happen when I first hire someone.
> 
> Actually, it's Bob. :laughing:


Is that "double standard" Bob?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I agree it's not that hard, but it does take time to get good at it and planning for boxes, box fill, pulling wires, etc.


Yeah it's just practice really. The hardest part is just measuring correctly. But guys don't just come out the box running clean romex either. It's just practice.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You think an apprentice gets coffee for 8 hours a day?


Hell no, they have to get 18 New York Posts, 26 bear claws, and don't forget the beer run.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> That ain't me, this is me


:laughing: Angry Badger.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> That ain't me, this is me


 
Damn, I must be a poor liar. But I'm a liar nonetheless, because LGLS says so.

Actually, that is my employee. His name is Reece. He works for peanuts (and bananas). No health care. No vacation. No dental or vision. No 401k. No company truck.

Dumb SOB works 14 hours a day, seven days a week. What a schmuck. Thanks to his wiring the factory this photo was taken in, I can now buy that Mazarati I've been eyeballin.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You think an apprentice gets coffee for 8 hours a day?
> I like to start them with pipebending and layout with an emphasis on planning to make the wire pull easy...


No, not the full 8 hours because the rest of the time might be spent like this:

1) 7:00 Arrive at job
2) 7:15 Smoke break
3) 8:45 Take up a list for the coffee break
4) 9:15 Go get the coffee, bagels, taylor ham, egg, and cheese sandwiches
5) 10:00 return with grocery bag full of crap for the guys, take break
6) 10:15 return to the job and look for a pencil to begin list for lunch break
7) 11:00 make list for lunch break
8) 11:30 go get lunch for everyone
9) 12:00 lunch break
10) 12:45'ish return to what I was doing before lunch break
11) 1:00 smoke break
12) 1:30 take a dump
13) 2:00 break time
14) 2:15 text a few friends
15) 2:30 clean up
16) 2:45 leave early

17) 4:00 come to ET to complain about how the rats have ruined the industry


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Is that "double standard" Bob?


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Hell no, they have to get 18 New York Posts, 26 bear claws, and don't forget the beer run.


Yeah..... Um....... Well not to disrespect there Bob but I have seen your photo.............

I ain't no doctor but jhezzus, you need to cut back on the bear claw and beer intake.

Half of that 10,000 pound van is reserved for you.

:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Yeah it's just practice really. The hardest part is just measuring correctly. But guys don't just come out the box running clean romex either. It's just practice.


Things like multipliers for 22º, 30º, 45º, and 90º bends are things people need to learn by way of experience. I prefer to use 30º bends wherever I can because the multiplier is alway easy to remember, 2. But that isn't always practical. You also want them all to look the same if there are more than one conduits run next to each other. That sort of thing..


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> No, not the full 8 hours because the rest of the time might be spent like this:
> 
> 1) 7:00 Arrive at job
> 2) 7:15 Smoke break
> ...


 
Aren't they supposed to be doing side work between 3:00 and 7:00 in order to drag the entire industry down? :whistling2:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> That ain't me, this is me


Now that's funny!


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


>


You are so clever.......... The whit and charm just slays me. Women probably just crawl over you.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Aren't they supposed to be doing side work between 3:00 and 7:00 in order to drag the entire industry down? :whistling2:


Yes, and then brag about their union status on Craig's List as if someone would be impressed that they can bend 4" conduit and direct cranes. :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Half of that 10,000 pound van is reserved for you.
> 
> :laughing::laughing:


:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> You are so clever.......... The whit and charm just slays me. Women probably just crawl over you.


I have no interest in bedding you so I leave the wit and charm for my wife.:jester:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:


"I Miss my couch"

Bet you do!

:laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> That ain't me, this is me


... Not white enough and it's too slim.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

milehiwire said:


> "I Miss my couch"
> 
> Bet you do!
> 
> :laughing:


I think Bob needs to change his login name to "troll magnet"


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I think Bob needs to change his login name to "troll magnet"


:laughing:

My Mom always felt I attracted the wrong types.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> No, not the full 8 hours because the rest of the time might be spent like this:
> 
> 1) 7:00 Arrive at job
> 2) 7:15 Smoke break
> ...


This list is so wrong, nobody likes taylor Ham.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> You are so clever.......... The whit and charm just slays me. Women probably just crawl over you.


They have to crawl over him, everybody does - Bob doesn't move easily! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ... Not white enough and it's too slim.


LMAO! :thumbsup:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Eat another doughnut. Do a quadruple chin rather than a triple. :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


>


I'm dead sexy! :thumbsup:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I'm dead sexy! :thumbsup:


Is that a wig?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I'm dead sexy! :thumbsup:


This is all in good fun, chin up Bob!!! 
(yes, both of them!)


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Is that a wig?


What's with the combover? Don't tell me he's bald too...


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all in good fun, chin up Bob!!!
> (yes, both of them!)


It's all good, I can take it.


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I like the "I can drink you pretty." We have all been there...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> It's all good, I can take it.


 
It's all good Bob. 
I'm just curious though - for what purpose was that photo taken? Employee ID? I know DMV photos and passport photos tend to be less than flattering but, we have little control over those.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

waco said:


> I like the "I can drink you pretty." We have all been there...


Bob will not be pretty any time soon.

Hey Bob, does the chin wave in the wind if you leave the side window on your van open?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's all good Bob.
> I'm just curious though - for what purpose was that photo taken? Employee ID? I know DMV photos and passport photos tend to be less than flattering but, we have little control over those.


LMAO :laughing::laughing:

Mike Holt kept pestering me for a recent photo so I sat myself in front of my tool box and put my camera on timer.

I smile a lot in real life but never on cue.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Bob will not be pretty any time soon.
> 
> Hey Bob, does the chin wave in the wind if you leave the side window on your van open?


Lets see your picture. :whistling2:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all in good fun, chin up Bob!!!
> (yes, both of them!)


 
Yep. Calling people liars, rats and manipulators is only in fun.

Riiiiiiiiight.:thumbsup:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Lets see your picture. :whistling2:


LOL! Now that would be scary! :laughing:

Some old bearded Harley rider.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Bob will not be pretty any time soon.
> 
> Hey Bob, does the chin wave in the wind if you leave the side window on your van open?


And if so... which one?!?!?! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Yep. Calling people liars, rats and manipulators is only in fun.
> 
> Riiiiiiiiight.:thumbsup:


You stay in your little world... when I refer to contractors I'm talking about businessmen who have payrolls, offices, and employees, not one-man shows like you.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You stay in your little world... when I refer to contractors I'm talking about businessmen who have payrolls, offices, and employees, not one-man shows like you.


That's right. I keep forgetting you backpedaled on that one.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Ahhhhhhh,

A big part of this trade, to me anyway, has been the ability to give others some **** and take it as well.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Ahhhhhhh,
> 
> A big part of this trade, to me anyway, has been the ability to give others some **** and take it as well.


So far, I haven't seen where any been offered for you to take. You seem only to give it.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So far, I haven't seen where any been offered for you to take. You seem only to give it.


Well pile it on my good man!:laughing:


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Hey milehi, last time they took your picture, did they stl use gunpowder for the flash?


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

oldman said:


> Hey milehi, last time they took your picture, did they stl use gunpowder for the flash?


Yes, why do you ask?


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

JTMEYER said:


> What about the time pulling wire through those pipes? I won't debate that you can rough pipe a home in X amount of hours, but isn't time spent on the rough just transfered to more time later? Or are you saying that you bent the whole house AND pulled wire in 12 hours?


 
Pulling the wire in the houses I described was accomplished in 3 man-hours. the service and furnace/ AC were additional as were the fixtures .The houses were not remarkably different from todays homes only a good deal smaller. The construction was lath and plaster with furred hardwood floors The Exterior walls were furred which meant that each 1900 box on an exterior wall had to be chiselled into the masonry. No holes were drilled, everything was notched . Services were 100 Amp inch and a quarter rigid with 3 # 3 rhw . # 8 ground to waterpipe It was hard work but satisfying ( and inside) that's all Ican recall offhand. I would like to hear similar data on a cabled house BillW.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Yes, why do you ask?


 
Sorry.. that's not taken with a flash. It's taken inside a studio using the 'north light' method


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's right. I keep forgetting you backpedaled on that one.


Goad awad 480, you are insignifigant. Go finish that wonderful kitchen job you scored...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> Pulling the wire in the houses I described was accomplished in 3 man-hours. the service and furnace/ AC were additional as were the fixtures .The houses were not remarkably different from todays homes only a good deal smaller. The construction was lath and plaster with furred hardwood floors The Exterior walls were furred which meant that each 1900 box on an exterior wall had to be chiselled into the masonry. No holes were drilled, everything was notched . Services were 100 Amp inch and a quarter rigid with 3 # 3 rhw . # 8 ground to waterpipe It was hard work but satisfying ( and inside) that's all Ican recall offhand. I would like to hear similar data on a cabled house BillW.


Didn't they bury the last lather in 19 d i c k e t y-2?:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Goad awad 480, you are insignifigant. Go finish that wonderful kitchen job you scored...


While you keep playing God Almighty.

I truly truly truly feel sorry for someone who has to make it appear he is so freaking great compared to others.

If all you can do is belittle people, then good luck in your life.

Goodbye.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

We just be here for some fun.............


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> While you keep playing God Almighty.
> 
> I truly truly truly feel sorry for someone who has to make it appear he is so freaking great compared to others.
> 
> ...


I'm playing God Almighty? Seems you can dish it out - but can't take it. No wonder you work alone. Take care...


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Shado said:


> Well here ya go boss...straight from NECA...
> 
> 14/2 - 30/M
> 
> ...


 
NECA IS not a credible source, any one with experience knows this. Only a rank amateur would consider their data to be accurate. That is why every experienced estimator builds his own manual of labor units based on EXPERIENCE. I would like to hear from a knowledge source with appropriate experience. I kept records for many years during my career, my experience did not include Romex. If you tried to bid work using NECA data you would not last very long. I lasted 50 + years BillW


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm playing God Almighty?


Without a doubt, if not God at least his right hand gopher.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Thank God for Ignore buttons.














​Or should I say, Thank LawnGuyLandSparky for Ignore buttons?​


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Didn't they bury the last lather in 19 d i c k e t y-2?:thumbup::thumbup:


 
I hope not!


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Without a doubt, if not God at least his right hand gopher.


Fellas, Fellas, Fellas! Even though Bob shoved a boot in my ass I still have a sense of humor. Chill and have some fun!

We will all be dirt napping sooner than we think.

May as well enjoy it and each other while we are here.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> We will all be dirt napping sooner than we think.


True enough.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Fellas, Fellas, Fellas! Even though Bob shoved a boot in my ass I still have a sense of humor. Chill and have some fun!
> 
> We will all be dirt napping sooner than we think.
> 
> May as well enjoy it and each other while we are here.


 
Fun is one thing. Doing nothing but belittling others is something else all together. I can take it as much as the next guy.

I've even compiled all the names I've been called here and had them placed on my headstone.








I guess I'm going to have to add some more.​


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Fun is one thing. Doing nothing but belittling others is something else all together. I can take it as much as the next guy.
> 
> I've even compiled all the names I've been called here and had them placed on my headstone.
> 
> ...


Naw 480, you know me from elsewhere and always appreciate your input.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wwilson174 said:


> I helped dig the hole!


 
I thought that was the last plasterer... good to know!!! :thumbup::laughing::laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> We will all be dirt napping sooner than we think.


 
...Some sooner than others, you knowwhatImean??? 

:laughing:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ...Some sooner than others, you knowwhatImean???
> 
> :laughing:


I do. Either of us could be run over by a truck or stuck with a massive and life ending heart attack very soon.

Take nothing for granted. 

I would like to see Bob cut back on the fat food.............:laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> I do. Either of us could be run over by a truck or stuck with a massive and life ending heart attack very soon.
> 
> Take nothing for granted.
> 
> I would like to see Bob cut back on the fat food.............:laughing:


I'd like to see Bob cut back on SOMETHING... anything. :laughing:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd like to see Bob cut back on SOMETHING... anything. :laughing:


Yeah, I get that and probably should be hating on Bob for kicking my ass. But I don't. :laughing:

Bob just has too many chins to forgive! LOL


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wwilson174 said:


> NECA IS not a credible source, any one with experience knows this. Only a rank amateur would consider their data to be accurate. That is why every experienced estimator builds his own manual of labor units based on EXPERIENCE. I would like to hear from a knowledge source with appropriate experience. I kept records for many years during my career, my experience did not include Romex. If you tried to bid work using NECA data you would not last very long. I lasted 50 + years BillW


If you tried to bid houses using conduit you wouldn't last very long either.

If your experience didn't include Romex then it is pretty clear that you don't know WTF your talking about .

I don't give a crap which labor units you use it is still going to be way more labor and material to wire a house in pipe without a goddamn bit of difference in quality or safety.Actually a house wired in conduit where I live would be more dangerous then Romex,the salt air eats the crap out of that stuff then all you have is Thhn in the walls.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> And you are not?


I am not spouting party line. I am explaining my own thought based upon my own experiences. 

I have been on both sides. I didn't buy the BS that the IBEW tried to peddle back in 1976 so I left. I understood and agreed with many of their the principals but like most other large corporations, they **** things up in the end.



> I know your game, I know your propoganda, I know your methods.


All you know is what you have been told. If you hadn't forgotten to think for yourself, you could see that.



> Another process is devalue the employee and don't let them know you're making more per hour than each of them are. Tell them you're losing money


For the past year, I make the same pay as my employees. My partner and I drastically cut our salaries in order to keep our good guys working with all their perks and benefits. So far it's working but only because we are making the sacrifices and taking the risks by continuing to borrow money and stay afloat. 

We could easily lose the employees and make really good money by doing a lot of work ourselves. It would be like the bad old days working dawn to dusk and bringing in fistfulls of cash and not having to pay any out.



> C'mon 220, you're not talking to a Pennsylvania backwoods imbred hick here.


What's worse, a hick who is just plain ignorant or an educated man who can't see that there are different ways of doing things? You are just like the hard right or far left whackos who won't see it any way other than the party tells them to see. You are Rush Limbaugh *and* Michael Moore.



> The all around emphasis in ANY business is to pay yourself the most possible and pay labor the least possible to keep your business viable


 
Keep your job because you will never ever make it on your own.




> Have you ever done an EMT house?


I've done plenty of EMT and plenty of houses.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Cough........... Ahemmmmmmmmm.

Well if the out-put equalled the in put then it would be zE= MC x twow plas O


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I am not spouting party line. I am explaining my own thought based upon my own experiences.


 And I base mine on mine. I have been on both sides too. I made my own mind up when I wired a house with the boss's son - who was 30 something and saying he was just about ready to buy his own house.

Later on, wired a new built in pool with him at a very nice house and the owner came home - an IBEW electrician. Age 27. The load of schpiel that followed in the van ride home afterward was not to be believed... (And luckily, I didn't) My request for an apprentice application was in the mail that week. 

Before I joined the IBEW I worked for about 3 or 4 different outfits, all very different, but all very much the same. This is where and how I learned how contractors lie and promise the world to everybody, then make excuse after excuse as to why that aren't delivering. Another thing I noticed - I NEVER saw a nonunion electrician's employee driving a new car, or living in a nice house in a nice neighborhood. And keep in mind this was during the "good times" in the 80's when there was more work for an electrician than you could possibly do.



> I have been on both sides. I didn't buy the BS that the IBEW tried to peddle back in 1976 so I left. I understood and agreed with many of their the principals but like most other large corporations, they **** things up in the end.


Specfically what did they f--k up?



> All you know is what you have been told. If you hadn't forgotten to think for yourself, you could see that.


You couldn't be more wrong about me. Don't get me wrong... I am not 100 % on board with everything the IBEW does, but overall, it's a better plan than any nonunion outfit has, especially for anyone who calls themselves an employee. 



> For the past year, I make the same pay as my employees. My partner and I drastically cut our salaries in order to keep our good guys working with all their perks and benefits. So far it's working but only because we are making the sacrifices and taking the risks by continuing to borrow money and stay afloat.


But in the long run, you are doing it because you do not want to lose your top guys - guys it took a long time to find - guys that have no problem carrying the weight of the job and getting chit done, and done right because the rest of your help is, well face it 220... crap. 

If you structured your business to utilize journeymen and apprentices, and had to lay off when there was no work, and hire when there is, you wouldn't need to be so self-aggrandizing. 



> We could easily lose the employees and make really good money by doing a lot of work ourselves. It would be like the bad old days working dawn to dusk and bringing in fistfulls of cash and not having to pay any out.


Then put your tools on. Put up or shutup 220, because whatever your motive is, I doubt it's because you're looking out for your guys... you're looking out for #1 not only because in the long run this serves you better, but realesing them might make them go to your competitor, or worse, your competition... 



> What's worse, a hick who is just plain ignorant or an educated man who can't see that there are different ways of doing things? You are just like the hard right or far left whackos who won't see it any way other than the party tells them to see. You are Rush Limbaugh *and* Michael Moore.


I can see there are different ways, if anything this should be clear to you by now. Don't mind me if I think your way sucks. You think my way sucks just a bad, don't you?



> Keep your job because you will never ever make it on your own.


No 220, I won't. Neither will you. You depend on customers. So do I. No man is an island and no matter how well you think you are making it, you are not doing it on your own. I've said it before - the conductor does not make the symphony - you need all the parts and the players and the score. Take out the violins and you got nothing anybody wants to hear. 



> I've done plenty of EMT and plenty of houses.


Both in the same place? I'm waiting for a reply from a contact who works in Chicago, wanting to find out exactly how much time it takes to pipe a wood framed residence. Should be interesting...


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Hummmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!




















Uffffffffffffffff!!!!!














ERGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
















OHF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











Splash!















Wipe wipe























Man does that feel better or what?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

So have we figured the quickest way to run home runs yet?


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> So have we figured the quickest way to run home runs yet?


Oh, yeah. Follow the plumbers.


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> About 6 months ago the shop super asked me if anyone on the crew would make a good foreman / crew leader...
> 
> DO you think I gave him the name of my most productive man?
> 
> You are full of chit if you really believe life is that simple...


this I fully believe...top producer never advances...he's need to cover for the lower producers...sad but true...


----------



## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Both in the same place? I'm waiting for a reply from a contact who works in Chicago, wanting to find out exactly how much time it takes to pipe a wood framed residence. Should be interesting...


 
We had to pipe up some metal stud rooms back in school, thaat was a PITA. Had to use existing holes. Now if you could notch instead of drill? IDK might not be that bad.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon give me some credit...
> 
> Residential is a beginner's market. Ametuers. 3-way switch problems... grounding and bonding issues... most of it done by greenies... or day laborers...


I'm not a REAL electrician cause I do mostly residential.

Must be great running 4" pipe all day according to the print like them UNION big boys


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm not a REAL electrician cause I do mostly residential.
> 
> Must be great running 4" pipe all day according to the print like them UNION big boys


 
Yea, well, I bet dem big ol' bad Union 'lecturshuns don't use 3M Scotchcoat, nyther. :whistling2:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Yea, well, I bet dem big ol' bad Union 'lecturshuns don't use 3M Scotchcoat, nyther. :whistling2:


And none of that stinkin PVC stuff either :no:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm not a REAL electrician cause I do mostly residential.
> 
> Must be great running 4" pipe all day according to the print like them UNION big boys



The trick, I think, is to lay pipe all day..............

Can wear you out though..........


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> this I fully believe...top producer never advances...he's need to cover for the lower producers...sad but true...


It's not about covering for anyone Oldman, except maybe me. I got a LOT of advice from a ton of people when I first ran work, and it seemed to all conflict. I decided I would just follow my heart and do what I thought was right, and listened to the only words I heard that really made sense to me: when running work, surround yourslef ONLY with people who will make you look good. 

So my deal is simple. I will run work, but I choose who stays and who goes.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JTMEYER said:


> We had to pipe up some metal stud rooms back in school, thaat was a PITA. Had to use existing holes. Now if you could notch instead of drill? IDK might not be that bad.


Think 2-story colonial with 12 cans in the livingroom... piped. I'm thinking lots of couplings...


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So my deal is simple. I will run work, but I choose who stays and who goes.


How many times has your tires been slashed? :laughing:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm not a REAL electrician cause I do mostly residential.
> 
> Must be great running 4" pipe all day according to the print like them UNION big boys


 
My back hurts just reading that...


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> How many times has your tires been slashed? :laughing:


 
Reset any GFI's this week Black?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's not about covering for anyone Oldman, except maybe me. I got a LOT of advice from a ton of people when I first ran work, and it seemed to all conflict. I decided I would just follow my heart and do what I thought was right, and listened to the only words I heard that really made sense to me: when running work, surround yourslef ONLY with people who will make you look good.
> 
> So my deal is simple. I will run work, but I choose who stays and who goes.


So basically you're one of those schmucks who advanced to foreman status not based on your skill level but because of shop politics.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Reset any GFI's this week Black?


B4T works well :thumbsup:

Yes.. made me $100.00 for pushing a button on bathroom GFI to make the outside outlet work.


----------



## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It's all good, I can take it.


You are one ugly SOB, your wife must be a real dog.:laughing:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Honda Racer said:


> You are one ugly SOB, your wife must be a real dog.:laughing:


Damn Badger, you really are a troll magnet.:thumbsup:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Hey Maggentica. I know times are tough but I can send a longer guitar strap so you aren't having to play it about your neck.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> B4T works well :thumbsup:
> 
> Yes.. made me $100.00 for pushing a button on bathroom GFI to make the outside outlet work.


So did I! 

I had a real tough one last week too, guys circuit breaker was tripped but wasn't in the tripped position. I wonder how long that would've taken a guy to figure out if he tightened down couplings all day for the past 8 years.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

milehiwire said:


> Hey Maggentica. I know times are tough but I can send a longer guitar strap so you aren't having to play it about your neck.


I think that milehigh air is going to your brain. It's causing some brain-rot, I'd get that looked at.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> You are one ugly SOB, your wife must be a real dog.:laughing:


Personal attacks like that make you look like a low life slime ball :no:

So you can't beat Bob in the word game, you go after his wife.. FUKING LOSER!!!!!!!!


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Honda Racer said:


> You are one ugly SOB, your wife must be a real dog.:laughing:


 Be giv'n Bob all the crap in the world.......... But give his family **** and I will share in putting my moto boots where de sun don't shine my friend.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Hey Maggentica. I know times are tough but I can send a longer guitar strap so you aren't having to play it about your neck.


That's not me. That's a guy whose been employing union stagehands for the last almost 40 years now. And that picture of him was taken in the stadium where they buried that bum Hoffa.


----------



## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Personal attacks like that make you look like a low life slime ball :no:
> 
> So you can't beat Bob in the word game, you go after his wife.. FUKING LOSER!!!!!!!!


:sleep1:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> So basically you're one of those schmucks who advanced to foreman status not based on your skill level but because of shop politics.


Do you think I advanced to foreman because I am a ******? And how did you glean your accusation of "shop politics" theory into this? 

I am well organized and think things through. I work well with people. (OK, I work well with people face-to-face.)

And I'm drop dead gorgeous.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> That's not me. That's a guy whose been employing union stagehands for the last almost 40 years now. And that picture of him was taken in the stadium where they buried that bum Hoffa.


I play bass, just giving you crap.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you think I advanced to foreman because I am a ******? And how did you glean your accusation of "shop politics" theory into this?
> 
> I am well organized and think things through. I work well with people. (OK, I work well with people face-to-face.)
> 
> And I'm drop dead gorgeous.


Because at some point in your career you were that guy who was selected because you weren't some other foreman's top guy. That is what you said you did when he came time to promoting guys to run jobs. That logic couldn't have changed that much from the time you made the leap to run jobs. Could it?


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you think I advanced to foreman because I am a ******? And how did you glean your accusation of "shop politics" theory into this?
> 
> I am well organized and think things through. I work well with people. (OK, I work well with people face-to-face.)
> 
> And I'm drop dead gorgeous.


Do you shave your legs?.......... Now that would be just strange to me.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Honda Racer said:


> You are one ugly SOB, your wife must...


I gotta draw the line there. Ragging on each other is one thing, dragging other people's spouses and families into this banter just doesn't sit well with me. They are not here participating and become innocent victims to the "fun."


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Because at some point in your career you were that guy who was selected because you weren't some other foreman's top guy. That is what you said you did when he came time to promoting guys to run jobs. That logic couldn't have changed that much from the time you made the leap to run jobs. Could it?


Actually I was, in fact, every time a job came up every foremen would request me, typically as #2 or to handle the service rooms and risers. 

My actual foreman's ticket was handed to me in the union hall in the bar downstairs in the bowling alley, but that's another story for another day...


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think that milehigh air is going to your brain. It's causing some brain-rot, I'd get that looked at.


With a name like NolaTigaBait?? What, should I worry?


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

milehiwire said:


> With a name like NolaTigaBait?? What, should I worry?


:blink: Worry about what?


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> :blink: Worry about what?


Brain-rot that's what.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

milehiwire said:


> Brain-rot that's what.


I guess so.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I guess so.


Dang that was clever.


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> NECA IS not a credible source, any one with experience knows this. Only a rank amateur would consider their data to be accurate. That is why every experienced estimator builds his own manual of labor units based on EXPERIENCE. I would like to hear from a knowledge source with appropriate experience. I kept records for many years during my career, my experience did not include Romex. If you tried to bid work using NECA data you would not last very long. I lasted 50 + years BillW


What??? NECA works in concert with the 'brotherhood' and is not credible? They usually do not allow non union to become members and yet it is not credible? Where then do they get these labor units from?

I never said it was accurate....you asked for a reference and I gave you one.

I have 25+ years experience....sorry that does not top your 50+.....but it is appropiate non the less. 

As far as credible/appropiate....that will vary from shop to shop...and probably wont be able give you the answer you want. 
Simply, a 1st year knows that running pipe vs RX is a more labor intensive....you have to do 1 thing then follow with another, RX...pull and your done...one shot. 
Perhaps if you have run MC....then you would have comparable figures to work with vs pipe.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> You are one ugly SOB, your wife must be a real dog.:laughing:





NolaTigaBait said:


> Damn Badger, you really are a troll magnet.:thumbsup:





Black4Truck said:


> Personal attacks like that make you look like a low life slime ball :no:





milehiwire said:


> Be giv'n Bob all the crap in the world.......... But give his family **** and I will share in putting my moto boots where de sun don't shine my friend.





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I gotta draw the line there. Ragging on each other is one thing, dragging other people's spouses and families into this banter just doesn't sit well with me.


Thanks gentlemen it is appreciated.

Actually my wife is quite pretty, have no idea why she is with me.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Who really gives a crap what honda racer has to say anyway.... his words are like farts in the wind.

~Matt


----------



## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks gentlemen it is appreciated.
> 
> Actually my wife is quite pretty, have no idea why she is with me.


because you are an ass-kissing, ball-washer, who makes the big money:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Who really gives a crap what honda racer has to say anyway.... his words are like farts in the wind.
> 
> ~Matt


 
Too bad he, like so many others here, proudly foul the air upwind of everyone.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

milehiwire said:


> Dang that was clever.


:furious:


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I thought that was the last plasterer... good to know!!! :thumbup::laughing::laughing:


 
I apologise to my old friend Jimmy Donoghue who ran the lather's Local in Chicago, we worked together in downtown Chicago years ago and stopped for a drink at Miller's pub on Adams street. He ran a tight ship, I hope he is still around. BillW


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> If you tried to bid houses using conduit you wouldn't last very long either.
> 
> If your experience didn't include Romex then it is pretty clear that you don't know WTF your talking about .
> 
> I don't give a crap which labor units you use it is still going to be way more labor and material to wire a house in pipe without a goddamn bit of difference in quality or safety.Actually a house wired in conduit where I live would be more dangerous then Romex,the salt air eats the crap out of that stuff then all you have is Thhn in the walls.


 
I need to hear facts and figures, not opinions or insults.BillW.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Too bad he, like so many others here, proudly foul the air upwind of everyone.


Modern science has determined slugs do not have a spine like other creatures lurking here


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> If you tried to bid houses using conduit you wouldn't last very long either.
> 
> If your experience didn't include Romex then it is pretty clear that you don't know WTF your talking about .
> 
> I don't give a crap which labor units you use it is still going to be way more labor and material to wire a house in pipe without a goddamn bit of difference in quality or safety.Actually a house wired in conduit where I live would be more dangerous then Romex,the salt air eats the crap out of that stuff then all you have is Thhn in the walls.


I thought 50 years was a long time, but from you I would like to hear facts and figures, not opinions and insults. BillW


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Modern science has determined slugs do not have a spine like other creatures lurking here


 
What about lying, manipulative rats? Do we have spines?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What about lying, manipulative rats? Do we have spines?


Yes.. we have spines and you forgot *unqualified *to do them big commercial jobs the big boys do.


----------



## CFine (May 20, 2008)

I generally do my home runs by the room. i finish all them then i start with the rest of the house.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Shado said:


> What??? NECA works in concert with the 'brotherhood' and is not credible? They usually do not allow non union to become members and yet it is not credible? Where then do they get these labor units from?
> 
> I never said it was accurate....you asked for a reference and I gave you one.
> 
> ...


 
Fine! show me YOUR figures, I showed you mine!


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

*Something extra for the troll....*

It would be a wonderful gesture to stop by Honda's page and leave a visitors message :thumbsup:

Same thing as taking your doggy for a walk and letting him dump on his front lawn 

http://www.electriciantalk.com/members/honda-racer-11298/


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> whatever your motive is, I doubt it's because you're looking out for your guys.


You are kind of a judgemental prick, aren't you? Your problem is that you place people into only two catagories, labor and management. You simply cannot do that.

I am the kind of guy that takes care of the people around him. It's my calling. 

I don't need a big ass house, I don't need a sports car, plane or boat...hell, I don't even need more than one pair of jeans and shoes. 

What I do need is for my extended family (which includes all but one of my employees) to have a better and easier life than I did. That's what motivates me. That, and telling ignorant dooshbags to STFU.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> You are kind of a judgemental prick, aren't you? Your problem is that you place people into only two catagories, labor and management. You simply cannot do that.
> 
> I am the kind of guy that takes care of the people around him. It's my calling.
> 
> ...


You need to address that message to the right person..


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Raises an interesting question.

I have some asparagus in the fridge that's about a week old.......... Smells okay. Think it's okay to eat?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Raises an interesting question.
> 
> I have some asparagus in the fridge that's about a week old.......... Smells okay. Think it's okay to eat?


Bon appétite!


----------



## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

So far I have learned that the only fast way to run homeruns is in EMT. I'll be damned.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> You need to address that message to the right person..


I quoted him. He knows.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I quoted him. He knows.


I didn't know it was a private conversation and all it took was (1) guess who "he" was :thumbup:


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> So far I have learned that the only fast way to run homeruns is in EMT. I'll be damned.


I know, learn something new everyday.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> You are kind of a judgemental prick, aren't you? Your problem is that you place people into only two catagories, labor and management. You simply cannot do that.
> 
> I am the kind of guy that takes care of the people around him. It's my calling.
> 
> ...




You need to dream bigger. :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> So far I have learned that the only fast way to run homeruns is in EMT. I'll be damned.


I learned not to listen to people telling me I'm an insignificant liar and expert manipulator and just get the damn job done. :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I learned not to listen to people telling me I'm an insignificant liar and expert manipulator and just get the damn job done. :thumbsup:


Yep, in the grand scheme of things some union shrill from Long Island doesn't really affect your day to day job, does it?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wwilson174 said:


> I thought 50 years was a long time, but from you I would like to hear facts and figures, not opinions and insults. BillW


 
I gave you facts not opinions or insults

Fact 1- Romex is fater to run then pipe and wire
Fact 2- Romex is just as safe as pipe when installed properly
Fact 3 - You don't know WTF your talking about.... :laughing:
Fact 4 - You cant use your so called data because it is 50 years old :laughing:
Fact 5- You still don't know WTF your talking about :lol:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yep, in the grand scheme of things some union shrill from Long Island doesn't really affect your day to day job, does it?


Not really. And far less recently.... for some strange reason.


----------



## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Fun is one thing. Doing nothing but belittling others is something else all together.


Insult aside, I think people forget that it simply makes for mindless reading. I think everyone reading this can be fairly certain that if I actually knew that Zeek sucks his thumb, is a bedwetter, and has bad breath and a tiny ****, I would simply be admitting that I was either stalking or screwing him.

In reality, it just shows a small mind. It's so much more fun for all involved to get clever, really clever. A dude that makes fun of the way another dude looks on an internet forum is just ****ing pathetic. To do so without even the courtesy of posting your own is simply pathetic multiplied by stupid, compounded by chicken****.

I don't give a damn what you look like, if I wanted to see pictures I sure as hell wouldn't be looking here. People in this type of community are judged by their knowledge and character, and a few here have proved a lack of character and have yet to show a glimmer of sense.

Just happy to get my 2 cents in before the lock, if they have those here anymore.


----------



## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> .....................................................................................
> 
> .......................................................................................................
> 
> ...


Good post, thank you.


----------



## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^^^^ditto what he said


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> Insult aside, I think people forget that it simply makes for mindless reading. I think everyone reading this can be fairly certain that if I actually knew that Zeek sucks his thumb, is a bedwetter, and has bad breath and a tiny ****, I would simply be admitting that I was either stalking or screwing him.
> 
> In reality, it just shows a small mind. It's so much more fun for all involved to get clever, really clever. A dude that makes fun of the way another dude looks on an internet forum is just ****ing pathetic. To do so without even the courtesy of posting your own is simply pathetic multiplied by stupid, compounded by chicken****.
> 
> ...


Good post :thumbsup:

Plus this slug is lacking a set of balls by hiding behind multiple screen names so his true identity won't be known. :no:


----------



## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

A motorcycling maillist I used to be active on had a simple policy on these things:

Until you had met them in person (and presumably shared a few beers and a campfire) you need to maintain some distance and keep the personal out of it.

After you shared a few beers and a campfire you do such only in jest.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> I gave you facts not opinions or insults
> 
> Fact 1- Romex is fater to run then pipe and wire
> Fact 2- Romex is just as safe as pipe when installed properly
> ...


You have not posted any data to support your position , you resort to insults instead of reasoned responses, The conclusion is obvious to any intelligent observer that you are in error. Please note that none of my posts denigrate you personally in any way and that I am able to articulate my views verbally ( that means without smileys) in such a way that I feel that I can comfortably review these exchanges or show them to others without discomfort. BillW


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Someone gave you data

Try NECA
Try Craftsman 
Try Mike Holt's Electrical Estimating
Try Turbo Bid
Try RS means
Try Pulling your head out of your a$$,you may not have attacked me directly but you did give another forum member a hard time over 4 inch flex WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC.

Face the facts you are a narrow minded jerk no matter what data or proof anyone gives you,your still just going to say that it isn't correct or accurate. Why would you even come on this forum unless your like the rest of the union slugs and just like to fight.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> Someone gave you data
> 
> Try NECA
> Try Craftsman
> ...


 



Show me numbers or shut up! Opinions are not data!


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> Show me numbers or shut up! Opinions are not data!



Doesn't common sense and logic tell you that cable methods are faster than raceway ones? You really need numbers to see that proven?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wwilson174 said:


> Show me numbers or shut up! Opinions are not data!


Someone already showed you numbers,here are some more

Mike Holt Electrical Estimating

1740 RX 14/2 copper Cost $108.00 Labor 10.00 Unit M- Thousand
305 Emt 1/2" Cost $130 Labor 22.50 Unit M-Thousand


The above numbers are out of Mike's book on estimating
Note that labor is just for pipe,no fittings,no wire

Here are some more

100 ft 14 thhn 15 amp arc fault home run 1/2 emt assembly Material $92.13 Labor 2.541 hours

100 ft 14-2 15 amp arc fault home run Material 66.54 labor .96


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Doesn't common sense and logic tell you that cable methods are faster than raceway ones? You really need numbers to see that proven?


Pete, Bill thinks he can pipe 4" EMT into a tight area faster then I can put LFMC in the same spot.

He is brainwashed.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't need a big ass house, I don't need a sports car, plane or boat...hell, I don't even need more than one pair of jeans and shoes. 

Your going to look awfully funny on wash day.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Pete, Bill thinks he can pipe 4" EMT into a tight area faster then I can put LFMC in the same spot.
> 
> He is brainwashed.


Yeah, brainwashing is the only thing that could explain that. :blink:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I don't need a big ass house, I don't need a sports car, plane or boat...hell, I don't even need more than one pair of jeans and shoes.
> 
> Your going to look awfully funny on wash day.


That was so funny...I forgot to laugh.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Your going to look awfully funny on wash day.


Enough with the personal attacks!!


I don't look funny dammit!! 




Laundry only takes an hour. That's my naked internet time.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> That was so funny...I forgot to laugh.



Yeah and that was my comback when I was a kid. 220 said he only needed one pair of pants. I think he'll look funny running around the jobsite in just boots and a t shirt.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

220/221 said:


> enough with the personal attacks!!
> 
> 
> I don't look funny dammit!!
> ...



*
tmi.

*


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

You want TMI?


I'm doing laundry right now.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, brainwashing is the only thing that could explain that. :blink:


 



Or experience!


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

220/221 said:


> You want TMI?
> 
> 
> I'm doing laundry right now.



I hope you own more than one towel so you can put one on the seat.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Doesn't common sense and logic tell you that cable methods are faster than raceway ones? You really need numbers to see that proven?


You don't seem to to understand the debate: let me simplify it for you. I can completely wire an average 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom house with 600 Ft. EMT in under 50 manhours. How long would it take you to do it with rope? I can' t make it any simpler! BillW


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wwilson174 said:


> You don't seem to to understand the debate: let me simplify it for you. I can completely wire an average 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom house with 600 Ft. EMT in under 50 manhours. How long would it take you to do it with rope? I can' t make it any simpler! BillW


 
20 hours


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> You don't seem to to understand the debate: let me simplify it for you. I can completely wire an average 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom house with 600 Ft. EMT in under 50 manhours. How long would it take you to do it with rope? I can' t make it any simpler! BillW


50 manhours to wire a 2000 sq foot house? Just the rough? What's included?


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Pete, Bill thinks he can pipe 4" EMT into a tight area faster then I can put LFMC in the same spot.
> 
> He is brainwashed.


 

You misquote me, sir, If you read my comment carefully you will see that I said that "I could install pipe just as fast as I could install Sealtite" I made no comment about your speed, If you are going to quote me I think you owe it to me to be accurate.BillW


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> 50 manhours to wire a 2000 sq foot house? Just the rough? What's included?


 
Read the post PLEASE, I said completely wire, I repeat COMPLETELY!!!


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> 20 hours


 
That says volumes about you!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Your going to look awfully funny on wash day.


----------



## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

220/221 said:


> You want TMI?
> 
> 
> I'm doing laundry right now.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> 50 manhours to wire a 2000 sq foot house? Just the rough? What's included?


Pete, it was 1966 and the home had 6 lights and plug.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> You don't seem to to understand the debate: let me simplify it for you. I can completely wire an average 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom house with 600 Ft. EMT in under 50 manhours. How long would it take you to do it with rope? I can' t make it any simpler! BillW



Bill you are out of your head.

It is imposable by anyone's standards to pipe anything faster than it can be cabled.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

220/221 said:


> You want TMI?
> 
> 
> I'm doing laundry right now.


:laughing:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I can completely wire an average 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom house with 600 Ft. EMT in under 50 manhours. How long would it take you to do it with rope?


I'd pay money to see that.



When I started in the trade (mid 70's) it took 8 hours, service included to rope a stock tract house. A journeyman and a brand new helper (me) did two a day.

Shrink it down to one room with 4 receps, two switches and a ceiling box for the fan/light and think about it.

Romex = 20 minutes. 10 minutes if we are racing. :laughing:

Do you think you could even come close to that with EMT?

Add obstacles like block walls and the margin increases.

EMT is a superior system as far as safety but their is no comparision when it comes to cost.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Yeah and that was my comback when I was a kid. 220 said he only needed one pair of pants. I think he'll look funny running around the jobsite in just boots and a t shirt.


I have the mentality of a child-thats why I used that one:thumbsup:


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

How long would it take without pants?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> How long would it take without pants?


 
It might save some time.

I wouldn't have to break out the Hole Hogg.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> It might save some time.
> 
> I wouldn't have to break out the Hole Hogg.


:lol::lol::notworthy:


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Bill you are out of your head.
> 
> It is imposable by anyone's standards to pipe anything faster than it can be cabled.


 
At the risk of being boringly repetitive; my numbers are out there, let me see yours!


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> At the risk of being boringly repetitive; my numbers are out there, let me see yours!


I showed you mine. What did you think about them?


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wwilson174 said:


> At the risk of being boringly repetitive; my numbers are out there, let me see yours!


You would ignore them like the rest.:laughing:

You do understand that NM has the conductors already inside, we don't have to snake them in after?:blink:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

wwilson174 said:


> At the risk of being boringly repetitive; my numbers are out there, let me see yours!


Yeah, I'll bite. I have not wired a house in 30 years but with four guys we would punch out two 1500' spec tri-levels in a day. That is complete and made up rough, no service but home runs hanging.

All rope.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You would ignore them like the rest.:laughing:
> 
> You do understand that NM has the conductors already inside, we don't have to snake them in after?:blink:


No, I really don't think he can get his mind around the concept that cable is much faster than raceway. :no:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> No, I really don't think he can get his mind around the concept that cable is much faster than raceway. :no:


I think he is just ********.

~Matt


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I think he is just ********.
> 
> ~Matt


Whatever it is, the fact that we even have to argue with him about it is a tad bit absurd. :blink:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Whatever it is, the fact that we even have to argue with him about it is a tad bit absurd. :blink:


I wouldnt even waste my time arguing with the douche, all the real electricians know the truth. :thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Yeah, I'll bite. I have not wired a house in 30 years but with four guys we would punch out two 1500' spec tri-levels in a day. That is complete and made up rough, no service but home runs hanging.
> 
> All rope.


30 years ago that thing had 3 circuits, one per level. :jester::jester::jester:


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> 30 years ago that thing had 3 circuits, one per level. :jester::jester::jester:


Not true. Pretty much the same as today with the exception of smokes (In some places) and bath GFCI's. AC was not a given then either........... So add a couple hours.


----------



## Honda Racer (Feb 15, 2010)

wwilson174 said:


> Read the post PLEASE, I said completely wire, I repeat COMPLETELY!!!


 Turn off your caps, what are you, stupid or something.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I think he is just ********.
> 
> ~Matt


Whoaaaaa. It's the "R word" now.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> That is complete and made up rough, *no service but home runs hanging*.


 
Wuss :laughing:

We used to BANG the houses out. It was a GREAT place to start and learn. Fortunately I only had to do it for about a year.

For a while we experimented with prefabbed "spiders"....a 4S box/round mud ring made up with four recep and one switch "drops". Hang the ceiling box, drop the cables to the receps/switches, install jumpers between rooms and feed it. You could do *3 *bedrooms in 20 minutes using that method.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> ..........For a while we experimented with prefabbed "spiders"....a 4S box/round mud ring made up with four recep and one switch "drops". Hang the ceiling box, drop the cables to the receps/switches, install jumpers between rooms and feed it. You could do *3 *bedrooms in 20 minutes using that method.


Not including prefab time at the shop?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Wuss :laughing:
> 
> We used to BANG the houses out. It was a GREAT place to start and learn. Fortunately I only had to do it for about a year.
> 
> For a while we experimented with prefabbed "spiders"....a 4S box/round mud ring made up with four recep and one switch "drops". Hang the ceiling box, drop the cables to the receps/switches, install jumpers between rooms and feed it. You could do *3 *bedrooms in 20 minutes using that method.


And to think most of those houses have burned down by now. :thumbsup:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Not including prefab time at the shop?


 
Correct. I _think_ it took about 15 minutes or so to fabricate them.



> And to think most of those houses have burned down by now.


Well....it was mostly AL wire in that era.


----------



## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Wuss :laughing:
> 
> We used to BANG the houses out. It was a GREAT place to start and learn. Fortunately I only had to do it for about a year.
> 
> For a while we experimented with prefabbed "spiders"....a 4S box/round mud ring made up with four recep and one switch "drops". Hang the ceiling box, drop the cables to the receps/switches, install jumpers between rooms and feed it. You could do *3 *bedrooms in 20 minutes using that method.


I got stuck with the fan/heat/lights in the bathrooms. They are kind of a biotch. I was the punk on the job then,


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> I got stuck with the fan/heat/lights in the bathrooms. They are kind of a biotch. I was the punk on the job then,


Those can be wired while they're sitting on a 4' ladder. THEN hang them on the joist.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Honda Racer said:


> Turn off your caps, what are you, stupid or something.


Look who's talking :laughing:

Last time you got computer privileges was not exactly a brilliant moment for you


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Yeah, I'll bite. I have not wired a house in 30 years but with four guys we would punch out two 1500' spec tri-levels in a day. That is complete and made up rough, no service but home runs hanging.
> 
> All rope.


There's more circuits in a kitchen these days than there were in an entire house back then.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I have the mentality of a child-thats why I used that one:thumbsup:



nanny nanny boo boo..


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Not true. Pretty much the same as today with the exception of smokes (In some places) and bath GFCI's. AC was not a given then either........... So add a couple hours.


Ahh I was just busting chops...on a more serious note I'll bet with all things considered your boss made more money on those specs back then than most EC's are willing to do them for now......


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Ahh I was just busting chops...on a more serious note I'll bet with all things considered your boss made more money on those specs back then than most EC's are willing to do them for now......


Ain't that the truth


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Here are some more
> 
> 100 ft 14 thhn 15 amp arc fault home run 1/2 emt assembly Material $92.13 Labor 2.541 hours
> 
> 100 ft 14-2 15 amp arc fault home run Material 66.54 labor .96


Guess I am older and slower than you...:laughing:

100 ft 14 thhn 15 amp arc fault home run 1/2 emt assembly 
Material - $109.17
Labor - 2.84 hours

100 ft 14-2 15 amp arc fault home run 
Material - $75.04 
labor - 1.045


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Shado said:


> Guess I am older and slower than you...:laughing:
> 
> 100 ft 14 thhn 15 amp arc fault home run 1/2 emt assembly
> Material - $109.17
> ...


 
Well we are both 
"on a race to the bottom"

I guess I am trying to get there faster then you..... :lol:


----------



## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Well we are both
> "on a race to the bottom"
> 
> I guess I am trying to get there faster then you..... :lol:


Cool...we can party like rock stars when we get there...:thumbup:

With what...I don't know, but, we can cross that bridge when time comes...:thumbsup:


----------



## N844AA (Feb 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Those can be wired while they're sitting on a 4' ladder. THEN hang them on the joist.


OMG! I'm gonna do that next time! :thumbsup:


----------

