# Sticky  We had a close one!



## MechanicalDVR

There are plenty of gases that occur naturally that will do that but not carbon monoxide like that. Headache would be first before passing out. Anything that replaces oxygen in the air will make you pass out.


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## PlugsAndLights

Work in transformer vaults and wells shouldn't be done without confined 
space knowledge. If you're still guessing what happened, you shouldn't
have been there in the place. Surprisingly reckless. 
P&L


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## Sparky Girl

Cow said:


> We do ongoing work for a large farm that lately has been having issues with their 75HP submersible well pump...
> 
> Anybody else had anything similar happen?


Glad to hear you got out OK. I worked on an underground project, about 10 miles of duct banks with maybe 2 dozen concrete underground splice rooms, about 10'x20'. At the start, we just went down the ladder and set up wire pulls without issue. Toward the end, those underground rooms made a lot of us dizzy. 

Now, this was back in the early 70s. Most of us thought we had smoked too much pot the night before. Now, I'm wondering...


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## MechanicalDVR

Sparky Girl said:


> Glad to hear you got out OK. I worked on an underground project, about 10 miles of duct banks with maybe 2 dozen concrete underground splice rooms, about 10'x20'. At the start, we just went down the ladder and set up wire pulls without issue. Toward the end, those underground rooms made a lot of us dizzy.
> 
> Now, this was back in the early 70s. Most of us thought we had smoked too much pot the night before. Now, I'm wondering...


Installed plenty of sensors and exhaust fan systems in CEVs for Bell Tele then Verizon over the years. Most of those vaults are only 12'-14' down to the floor level.


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## glen1971

A couple of quick google searches:

Confined space:
A confined space also has limited or restricted means for entry or exit and is not designed for continuous occupancy. Confined spaces include, but are not limited to, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, pits, manholes, tunnels, equipment housings, ductwork, pipelines, etc.

Oxygen deficient:
While normal atmosphere contains between 20.8 and 21 percent oxygen, OSHA defines as oxygen deficient any atmosphere that contains less than 19.5 percent oxygen, and as oxygen enriched, any atmosphere that contains more than 22 percent.

Ya might wanna get some proper training before you try that one again, or that phrase might end up in your eulogy next time..


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## Big John

Glad to hear nobody was hurt and you learned from it.

There is a lot involved in doing proper confined space entry. And on farms a hazardous atmosphere can often exist because of all the decomposing organics, so that makes them permit confined; there are a lot of stories of confined space deaths on farms.

At the very least give yourself a fighting chance and get a confined space blower. They can be had brand new for ~$400 with the hose, and unlike personal gas monitors that's a one-time cost if you take care of it.


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## Southeast Power

We entered a manhole and a few fire rescue guys were driving by.Totally unofficial. They asked about how we would get someone out if there were a problem.Asked if we had used an instrument to check for gas.
Asked if we had an air monitor.
Nope.
None of that.
They said that earlier that year, some guy went into a somewhat shallow storm drain to clean it out. He died. Somehow, rotten grapefruit in the underground structure produced a toxic gas.


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## Big John

Suncoast Power said:


> We entered a manhole and a few fire rescue guys were driving by.Totally unofficial. They asked about how we would get someone out if there were a problem.Asked if we had used an instrument to check for gas.
> Asked if we had an air monitor.
> Nope.
> None of that....


 And I can completely understand that.

Yes, by the book a company is supposed to have several thousand dollars of gear even if they only do entry-work once a year. There are great owners who are willing to pony that up to ensure the safety of their guys, but that is a very unlikely expense for a small shop.

So what are the most realistic steps a small shop can take? Educate all their guys so they recognize the hazards, ventilate the hell out of the space, and always have a hole watch topside.


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## Jlarson

Yeah you need to do more then just open both manholes. Unless you have confined space training don't do it. 

You really should have your own rescue too. Especially in a remote area, a lot of small fire departments and VFD'S are totally clueless or unequipped to handle industrial rescues, most often they turn into body recovery not a rescue.


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## Southeast Power

Big John said:


> And I can completely understand that.
> 
> Yes, by the book a company is supposed to have several thousand dollars of gear even if they only do entry-work once a year. There are great owners who are willing to pony that up to ensure the safety of their guys, but that is a very unlikely expense for a small shop.
> 
> So what are the most realistic steps a small shop can take? Educate all their guys so they recognize the hazards, ventilate the hell out of the space, and always have a hole watch topside.


It was a very large and well established contractor but, the times were different back then.
Incidentally, the project was in the parking lot of a hospital.


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## splatz

One of my stops, I am sub to a sub of a large engineering company that is subbed by a very big chemical company. They are pretty much maxed out with safety. 

The underground vaults at their site are confined spaces, and policy has always required that we enter them with a tripod, gas detector, etc. This year, they decided there has to be a certified rescue team present in addition to the guys doing the work. 

I was thinking about asking to have a helicopter there with them on standby in case, but I decided to aim high. I have requested that a trauma center be set up at the side of the hole staffed by a trauma surgeon and staff. And also a Starbucks, there's a Starbucks almost everywhere now, I don't think they'd mind opening a store there for me.


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## Southeast Power

Jlarson said:


> Yeah you need to do more then just open both manholes. Unless you have confined space training don't do it.
> 
> You really should have your own rescue too. Especially in a remote area, a lot of small fire departments and VFD'S are totally clueless or unequipped to handle industrial rescues, most often they turn into body recovery not a rescue.


I would have to know what kind of gas we were dealing with before putting my buddies down there.


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## splatz

Suncoast Power said:


> I would have to know what kind of gas we were dealing with before putting my buddies down there.


I guess you never really know what might be down there. I am always paranoic about gasoline fumes, if some nitwit was careless filling their weed whacker by that hole or etc. 

There is fracking in the area of that particular site, there's a real chance of stumbling on methane / natural gas in an unexpected place.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> I guess you never really know what might be down there. I am always paranoic about gasoline fumes, if some nitwit was careless filling their weed whacker by that hole or etc.
> 
> There is fracking in the area of that particular site, there's a real chance of stumbling on methane / natural gas in an unexpected place.



Methane is far more common than many would think, most forms of buried decomposing organic materials produce it.


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## Jlarson

It's not just the gas issue. What happens if you get hurt down there and can't get yourself out? Or of you fall going up or down the ladder and are hanging there all busted up or unconscious in your harness?

I've also heard of plenty of cases of the guy freaking the **** out or realizing he's afraid of the climb out and he's gotta be winched out.


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## John Valdes

A bit surprised to hear this story in this day and age.
Its been years since confined spaces were topics of discussion and implementation of safety rules and required equipment.
Amazing that the farmer was the one giving the warning! Even he knew it was a confined space and extra precaution was required.

It was a pain in the ass to gear up to descend a 20' hole to free up a stuck limit switch in the plant. But the OP has provided us with the reason we must do it.
Our lives depend on it.


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## Signal1

Holy Cow!

First off I'm glad you and your man are OK. You were probably only seconds away from not being home for dinner..........FOREVER.

Second, thanks for sharing your story, I hope every one who comes across this post learns something, and helps people realize the importance of proper confined space training. At least get the OSHA 10, it only takes a couple of nights, and it could save your life.

We wear multi-gas monitors but I always set up the blower anyway, even if there are no readings. Regardless always test for gas, it sounds like you may have encountered hydrogen-sulfide. 

It's also important to wear your harness, that way if you do go down or get hurt, rescuers can get you out quickly.
When I was in the EMT program I remember the instructor (a professional FF) saying "one of the hardest things to pick up and carry is a lifeless human body", and let me tell you, that is so true. Hard enough in a cluttered apartment, never mind a manhole.

Never go in a confined space alone. EVER


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## Big John

Signal1 said:


> ...Never go in a confined space alone. EVER


I may ammend that last part: If there's a danger in the confined space, the last thing you want to do is bring your rescuer into it with you.

Most of the deaths that occur in confined spaces are from people seeing someone in trouble and putting themselves into the hazard while trying to perform a rescue.

Training is important here. Our state offers free safety courses to anyone who wants to attend. Look into what services your local labor/OSHA group has.


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## emtnut

My confined spaced certification expired ~15 yrs ago. But I did the training every 2 years for about 12 yrs.

ANY underground area can become oxygen deficient !
Simple rusting of metal in the space can cause the oxygen level to reduce below 17.5%, and cause you to loose conscientious.
Not to mention methane and CO that can naturally enter the confined space.

We always had the test meters at the plants I worked in, but I would think that they could be rented.

There have been many deaths in confined spaces, and multiple deaths when a co-worker went into the confined space to save a friend !

Either get a meter or rent one  ... I'm glad your here to post about it COW ... this could have turned out quite different


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## Going_Commando

Hell, we are really lax on safety, but I won't even go into a manhole without a harness and winch setup anymore, plus a blower running.


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## Big John

emtnut said:


> ...We always had the test meters at the plants I worked in, but I would think that they could be rented....


 Good idea. I wonder if there are places that rent safety gear? I know you can rent the blowers.

That's the ideal solution for small shops where having all that overhead in unused gear would be a burden.


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## emtnut

Did a quick search , you can rent the meters for $40-$50 a day, ~$200 week. 
I would think most safety SH would have this everywhere.

Definitely worth it .... as COW almost found out, your life can depend on it


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## Going_Commando

It's really insane how much all that stuff costs. Thankfully for the manhole work we do, all I bring is my harness. The rest is provided on site if they want the work done.


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## drsparky

Tip-of the-day Manholes often are connected to each other with conduit and ducts. Opening the cover sometimes starts air flow down the conduit and may bring bad air from a manhole to another, air could be good when you first tested it but may become toxic from an adjoining manhole. Keep the sniffer down in the hole with you.


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## wildleg

just FYI - you don't have to rent or buy big fancy meter/monitors, you can buy a 3 or 4 gas wearable monitor for a couple hundred bucks or so, good for a couple years. do your homework.

and not just for confined spaces, either. gas plant work, or places where you aren't sure the atmosphere has enough oxygen, or too much CO, or too much CO2, etc, all need to be monitored.


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## Signal1

Big John said:


> I may ammend that last part: If there's a danger in the confined space, the last thing you want to do is bring your rescuer into it with you.
> 
> Most of the deaths that occur in confined spaces are from people seeing someone in trouble and putting themselves into the hazard while trying to perform a rescue.
> 
> Training is important here. Our state offers free safety courses to anyone who wants to attend. Look into what services your local labor/OSHA group has.


What you say is correct Big John.

I said it wrong so let me clarify.
I meant a safety monitor to remain outside of the confined space, to watch over the worker inside and who can call for help if something goes wrong.
(you referred to this yourself in post#9).


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## Big John

wildleg said:


> just FYI - you don't have to rent or buy big fancy meter/monitors, you can buy a 3 or 4 gas wearable monitor for a couple hundred bucks or so, good for a couple years. do your homework...


 You have any you recommend? Used to be those things got into the $7-800 range quick, and that didn't include calibration gear or the cost of replacement sensors.

If they're that cheap now, I agree, no reason not to buy one.


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## MechanicalDVR

*Single Gas Meters*

http://www.tequipment.net/BW/BWC2-H/?Source=googleshopping&gclid=CJC9_pzjv84CFQNkhgodtPIK0Q


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## TGGT

Cow said:


> We do ongoing work for a large farm that lately has been having issues with their 75HP submersible well pump. The well pump is located at the bottom of a vault. The vault is roughly the same size as a padmount transformer vault. Maybe 6 x 8 x 6' high. So yesterday, I open the manhole and descend down the ladder seeing what I need to tie the well pump cable into the existing conduit. I take a quick look and right as I turn around to head back to the other side of the vault where the ladder is, I get dizzy, bad! I climb the ladder just trying to keep my wits and senses about me well enough to make it to the top, thinking I'm going to lose my balance at any moment but thinking I'll be damned if I'm going to not make it out of this hole! I think to myself if I'm going to pass out, I'm going to at least do it above ground!
> 
> I chalked it up to getting out of my truck too fast or what-have-you. Didn't even think about it again. I finished making my material list and scheduled the job for today.
> 
> So today, myself and another guy were out at the farm again. I got busy with a different project so I decide to send the other guy over with the material to do the well project. I go back to what I'm doing.
> 
> The farmer happens to call me and wants to talk about another project we're doing for him. After finishing up with that I mention in passing we're also taking care of getting the well wired up today.
> 
> Farmer: You guys know you need to open BOTH manholes and let the vault air out first? Or use a fan?
> Me: Huh?
> Farmer: That's a confined space. One of the guys from the well company climbed down there and almost passed out at the bottom the other day.
> Me: OH $HIT!! I got dizzy yesterday but just thought I jumped out of the truck too fast!
> Me: The other guy is probably climbing in there right now if he isn't already in there!!
> Farmer: I'm close to the well, I'll run over there! I'll call you baccckkkk......
> 
> The other guy did the same thing I did, climbed in, got dizzy but made it back out.
> 
> I can say, that was a tense couple of minutes waiting for the phone call letting me know the other guy was okay!!!!!
> 
> My help thinks it was carbon monoxide poisoning. I just never would of thought there would have been an issue climbing into a well pump vault, it's just like a transformer vault in my mind, and we do that all the time without issue.
> 
> I can only think it must have something to do with well hole going deep in the ground inside that vault, is my best guess?
> 
> Anybody else had anything similar happen?



I've been fortunate enough that most of the contractors I've worked for provided monitoring equipment when requested, but I, and not the foreman, was usually the one that had to speak up about it. I'd put confined spaces on the same level as hot work, maybe higher because many times a person isn't aware of the danger until it's too late if they're not trained in the first place.

Everybody else here has provided good advice on how to deal with it, at least if you and your coworkers are trained on the hazards and precautions you can then use your common sense to best suit your work.


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## wcord

For those of you who enter manholes/vaults on a regular basis, do you monitor for a range of gases or just the level of O2?
The site that MechD posted has a range of meters both in gas and price.
For a small shop that only enters confined spaces on an occasional basis, what would be the best meter for the dollar? I think we would all like to buy the best unit , which does everything, but just can't afford it.


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## MechanicalDVR

wcord said:


> For those of you who enter manholes/vaults on a regular basis, do you monitor for a range of gases or just the level of O2?
> The site that MechD posted has a range of meters both in gas and price.
> For a small shop that only enters confined spaces on an occasional basis, what would be the best meter for the dollar? I think we would all like to buy the best unit , which does everything, but just can't afford it.


The very first meter to drop in is a combustible gas detector and most of those also pick up carbon monoxide. Then the O2 meter once you know it isn't a combustible atmosphere. 

Methane, Carbon monoxide, Hydrogen Sulfide, and oxygen are the most common gases monitored.

Maybe rent a meter rather than buy if you feel the more expensive ones meet your needs.


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## Wirenuting

I do confined space work all the time. I always have them sniffed first then use mechanical ventilation.

The cost of a gas free meter is less then the cost of a funeral.


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## wildleg

Big John said:


> You have any you recommend? Used to be those things got into the $7-800 range quick, and that didn't include calibration gear or the cost of replacement sensors.
> 
> If they're that cheap now, I agree, no reason not to buy one.


I'm going to look in my records and see if I can find the ones we used. We did some gas plant/substation work and used the 4 gas ones similar to these:
https://www.amazon.com/Technologies...roClip-Rechargeable-Combustible/dp/B00ANVD23I. I see these are 5 to 6 hundred, but I could swear the ones we used about 10 yrs ago were under 300 (maybe my memory isn't so good). Anyhow, 600 is still not bad for something that critical. 

My recollection is that they were good for 2 years.

If I find the info I'll post it.


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## Bird dog

The farm in the article had a football field size manure holding tank.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/08/1...d-after-being-overcome-with-manure-fumes.html


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## MechanicalDVR

Wirenuting said:


> I do confined space work all the time. I always have them sniffed first then use mechanical ventilation.
> 
> The cost of a gas free meter is less then the cost of a funeral.


When in doubt, I use surface supplied air....LOL


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## gnuuser

we are trained in confined space protocol every year 
its something you should not take for granted!
nitrogen gas has no odor and will rapidly displace oxygen. same with carbon monoxide. 
Im happy you got out safely but
heres a website for training
http://etraintoday.com/course-catalog/osha-training/confined-space-training/


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## Barjack

I think this thread should be a sticky.

Us guys who do mostly residential and commercial work need to be aware of this hazard!

I myself had no idea.

I can totally see myself or one of my coworkers getting called to deal with some situation underground and not having the slightest clue what we're getting into.


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## MechanicalDVR

Barjack said:


> I think this thread should be a sticky.
> 
> Us guys who do mostly residential and commercial work need to be aware of this hazard!
> 
> I myself had no idea.
> 
> I can totally see myself or one of my coworkers getting called to deal with some situation underground and not having the slightest clue what we're getting into.


Agreed on being a sticky. For the ones that have had training and yearly refreshers it's old hat. Awareness is the first step.


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## daks

MechanicalDVR said:


> Agreed on being a sticky. For the ones that have had training and yearly refreshers it's old hat. Awareness is the first step.


 Agreed, Sticky it and/or make it one of those fancy monthly articles and sticky it. 

TBH something that I was extensively trained in (for a different work type though) many years ago. BUT not a hazard that I've actively thought about since. Not had a refresher either.
As soon as you mentioned going in, I was blissfully unaware as you were,
when you mentioned dizziness...
BOOM, it all came back to me, gasses, O2 levels, tie offs/winches/Aframes, blowers, rescue plans. 

If it were not for that little reminder, I might have done the same thing and then remembered how stupid I was when at the bottom and the access hole was going dim. 

:thumbsup:


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## inetdog

MechanicalDVR said:


> Methane is far more common than many would think, most forms of buried decomposing organic materials produce it.


And remember, like both CO and CO2, methane is an odorless gas that can displace oxygen. (Although it is lighter than oxygen and will not accumulate in an open hole it can fill a confined space and take awhile to dissipate.)
The odor we often think is associated with methane is actually either other organic gasses generated by decomposition or an odorant deliberately added to natural gas (which is mostly methane.)
If I had to guess about the OP gas I would say CO2.


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## MechanicalDVR

daks said:


> Agreed, Sticky it and/or make it one of those fancy monthly articles and sticky it.
> 
> TBH something that I was extensively trained in (for a different work type though) many years ago. BUT not a hazard that I've actively thought about since. Not had a refresher either.
> As soon as you mentioned going in, I was blissfully unaware as you were,
> when you mentioned dizziness...
> BOOM, it all came back to me, gasses, O2 levels, tie offs/winches/Aframes, blowers, rescue plans.
> 
> If it were not for that little reminder, I might have done the same thing and then remembered how stupid I was when at the bottom and the access hole was going dim.
> 
> :thumbsup:


*I didn't mention going in, I'm anything but unaware of confined space problems from years of (CEV) vault work of what can be lingering in those atmosphere's (injury and death). 
This was stated by the OP (Cow). *


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## daks

MechanicalDVR said:


> *I didn't mention going in, I'm anything but unaware of confined space problems from years of (CEV) vault work of what can be lingering in those atmosphere's (injury and death).
> This was stated by the OP (Cow). *


 Sorry I didn't phrase it better, I was thinking of the OP "going in",
I figured a "frog" would be able to quote gas concentrations off the top of his head. :thumbsup:. 
As a groundpounder we took training on underground environments, few more gasses and materials were covered over the training I had in an industrial environment. But if you don't think about things over the years, and there are no reminders, things fade. 
I still look for IED's, but I have not thought about H2S in years.


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## MechanicalDVR

daks said:


> Sorry I didn't phrase it better, I was thinking of the OP "going in",
> I figured a "frog" would be able to quote gas concentrations off the top of his head. :thumbsup:.
> As a groundpounder we took training on underground environments, few more gasses and materials were covered over the training I had in an industrial environment. But if you don't think about things over the years, and there are no reminders, things fade.
> I still look for IED's, but I have not thought about H2S in years.


That maybe a skill that many here will need as we go forward, more like Israel with terrorism on our shores.

I have gotten rusty on some things I've been schooled in but we all need to stay aware of our surroundings. I was shocked to think any mechanic would enter a confined or even restricted space and not take some precautions. 

I'd have bailed as soon as I felt the slightest effect of any symptom.


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## Dennis Alwon

This thread is now a sticky. Bird Dog recommended it and I agree-- good idea


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