# Numbers matter. A lot.



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

This makes me nuts. My take is on a panel that can (and might) contain single pole or multi-pole breakers that the breaker positions are marked odd on the left side and even on the right using each single pole slot as 1 number. Eg a 3 pole breaker mounted upper left would be in the 1,3,5 spot. For the panels with tandem breakers I would still label the slots the same but the directory and ckt ID in the field would be either eg ckt-1A or ckt-1b.










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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Out of simple curiosity , what panel brand and circuit breakers are those? I don't believe I have run into that brand yet perhaps. C S. Chicken Steve breakers?


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> Out of simple curiosity , what panel brand and circuit breakers are those? I don't believe I have run into that brand yet perhaps. C S. Chicken Steve breakers?















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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Thank you. But, the lettering on the handle ties really has me curious now.......


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> Thank you. But, the lettering on the handle ties really has me curious now.......




Was a spec for at&t installations for lockout/tag out but no more.










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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Looks like Westinghouse 600 volt breakers, probably the kind where you can change the order of the phases by swapping out the bus attachments on the bottom of the breaker.

Cheers
John


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Navyguy said:


> Looks like Westinghouse 600 volt breakers, probably the kind where you can change the order of the phases by swapping out the bus attachments on the bottom of the breaker.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Wouldn't it be easier to swap the load conductors, than monkeying with the bus?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Numbers, consistency, and the way things are number are important in everything.
I once did a 3 story office building with a 16 socket meter bank system. I was told the offices were numbered ; odd numbers are on the left and the even numbers are on the right. So we labeled the meters that way. It turned out that the landlord numbered them after we were done, 1-4 on the left and 5 - 8 on the right. It was a nightmare to straighten out the utility company and which meters went to which tenant.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Numbers, consistency, and the way things are number are important in everything.
> I once did a 3 story office building with a 16 socket meter bank system. I was told the offices were numbered ; odd numbers are on the left and the even numbers are on the right. So we labeled the meters that way. It turned out that the landlord numbered them after we were done, 1-4 on the left and 5 - 8 on the right. It was a nightmare to straighten out the utility company and which meters went to which tenant.




When I was an apprentice I worked on massive data project. The architect used the bicsi number system from day 1 and it was so easy to identify and locate everything in the building. 

On the power end I like having the same. Depends upon existing conditions or totally new (most of the time it’s already decided by the architect or engineer). Gets confusing in a big building when the basement has a panel PP 6-1 and the 6th floor has a panel PP-6-1 or breakers in switchgear are labeled directly on the breaker (label a spot so it won’t leave when changing a breaker)

For the newer guys just think how easy finding a book in the library is. I hope they’ve learned about libraries in school.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

joebanana said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to swap the load conductors, than monkeying with the bus?


It is not about the "phase rotation" as much as it is about the panel configuration in some of these older styles of panels.

So in the picture provided, position 6 is likely phase "C", but if the attachments on the bottom of the breaker are the standard A, B, C, it will not fit in this position because the first position has to be "C" phase. So they have removable "attachment bars" so the breaker can be attached to the different phases in whatever order is required.

Cheers
John


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## catsparky1 (Sep 24, 2013)

I love it when they start on the left 1,2,3,4,5,6 . It clearly shows that it was handy work.


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## Rainwater01 (Oct 6, 2015)

catsparky1 said:


> I love it when they start on the left 1,2,3,4,5,6 . It clearly shows that it was handy work.



True but does anyone really like having odd numbers on the left? I feel like I’m always counting odds and evens when labeling panels and I find it rather annoying. Kind of like dividing fractions all day for no real reason other than we’ve always done it that way.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Rainwater01 said:


> True but does anyone really like having odd numbers on the left? I feel like I’m always counting odds and evens when labeling panels and I find it rather annoying. Kind of like dividing fractions all day for no real reason other than we’ve always done it that way.





Well, here I am a half year late and two dollars short but it's not my fault. It's because of Corona.


I remember being a new ship electrician where all of the machines and systems on the port(left) side of the ship were even numbers, and all the breakers on the left side of the panels were odd numbers. I guess it's like electron flow/+- where once a convention is established, we go with it for consistency, efficiency, safety, etc?


One of my all-time favorites is a dual-strap backup battery bank being labeled left to right, top to bottom 1-12 where the actual specified numbering is nothing even close to that. 



It's all a conspiracy!


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