# Dishwasher Outlet



## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Question, I was called into a home that another electrician had wired. The HO was questioning his placement of the kitchen outlet for her dishwasher. I looked at it, and I didnt think it was in the right place either. Its on the baseboard behind the dishwasher.. Isnt that a bad spot for it?

If memory serves me correct 210.52 C(5) says an outlet should be no more than 12inches from the bottom of the counter top...

Then isnt there another one that says there has to be a disconnect for the service of the dishwasher? If the breaker isnt in line of site that there has to be a way to shut the power off? We normally place a plug under the sink and plug the thing in..

The previous electrician is pissed at the world over this.. I just asked him the same question I just asked here, isnt it a violation to have it that close to the floor.


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Don't have book handy but sounds like your referring to counter top or island receptacle requirements. If that rec is switch controlled then it might be fine, not 100% sure though without book here. I don't think there is a height code for that outlet.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

GEORGE D said:


> Don't have book handy but sounds like your referring to counter top or island receptacle requirements. If that rec is switch controlled then it might be fine, not 100% sure though without book here. I don't think there is a height code for that outlet.



Nope not switched controlled.. You dont think that the outlet that close to the floor would be bad? i mean with the tile goes back into this kitchen there will be no gap between it and the tile.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

If you're servicing the dishwasher, you're pulling it out. If you're pulling it out, you're able to unplug it... right?


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> If you're servicing the dishwasher, you're pulling it out. If you're pulling it out, you're able to unplug it... right?



True, but what happens if the stupid thing floods? the waters going to run right into that outlet box..


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

rnichols said:


> True, but what happens if the stupid thing floods? the waters going to run right into that outlet box..


... and trip a circuit breaker.

You can't wire a house to accommodate every possible disaster that might possibly someday happen.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

erics37 said:


> ... and trip a circuit breaker.
> 
> You can't wire a house to accommodate every possible disaster that might possibly someday happen.


I understand that you cant accommodate every possible disaster that might possibly happen.. but why put it that low if you have the drywall already opened, the wire comes from the top of the wall.. What is the need for it to be that low?


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

rnichols said:


> I understand that you cant accommodate every possible disaster that might possibly happen.. but why put it that low if you have the drywall already opened, the wire comes from the top of the wall.. What is the need for it to be that low?


In case someone's really short


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

rnichols said:


> True, but what happens if the stupid thing floods?


True, but what if it doesn't?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Check out- 422.16(B)(2)

Cord no longer than 4' shorter than 3'.
Rec located in... 'space occupied by equipment OR adjacent to."

No Prob.:thumbsup:


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Maybe he left wire in wall for straight connection but somehow ended up short so instead he cut in a box from where it was and put a recep.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

rnichols said:


> I understand that you cant accommodate every possible disaster that might possibly happen.. but why put it that low if you have the drywall already opened, the wire comes from the top of the wall.. What is the need for it to be that low?



if this is a rehab,and the NMB is already there. Why pull in/box a new one?


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> If you're servicing the dishwasher, you're pulling it out. If you're pulling it out, you're able to unplug it... right?


This may not be true in every case, what if technician just needed to work on door controls?


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

GEORGE D said:


> Maybe he left wire in wall for straight connection but somehow ended up short so instead he cut in a box from where it was and put a recep.



Maybe.. I just know the guy that trained me would have walked up behind me and beat the ever living snot outta me with whatever he could have found if i put an outlet that low for the dishwasher..


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

GEORGE D said:


> This may not be true in every case, what if technician just needed to work on door controls?



On/off switch. What if...... they don't?


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

leland said:


> if this is a rehab,and the NMB is already there. Why pull in/box a new one?



Because he told the HO that the whole kitchen had to be rewired since the dishwasher was on a counter switch and that was against code. There was about three pages of stuff he said was code violations...


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## MasterE (Dec 31, 2011)

The rec or disconnect needs to be readily accessible, and behind the dishwasher
is not readily accessible.


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

rnichols said:


> Maybe.. I just know the guy that trained me would have walked up behind me and beat the ever living snot outta me with whatever he could have found if i put an outlet that low for the dishwasher..


This is a silly thread. I've done it both ways. W/ plug and hardwired. There deffinately is no code against an outlet at that height. It's not a countertop circuit. There are millions of baseboard plugs in the world. The advantage of attaching a UL approved S-cord is that a plumber can remove the dishwasher without calling the EC. Its only a 120v appliance. Some common sense applied here may be too much for your brain to handle. The outlet IMO is the BEST option. It has been accepted and approved of by my high end clients and the AHJ.


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Of course I'm not saying that it's ok to put it on the 2 countertop circuits. I personally always put the garbage disposal and DW on a circuit. 20 amp.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

MasterE said:


> The rec or disconnect needs to be readily accessible, and behind the dishwasher
> is not readily accessible.


*422.16 Flexible Cords.*
*
(B) Specific Appliances.*
*
(2) Built-in Dishwashers and Trash Compactors.*
Built-in dishwashers and trash compactors shall be permitted
to be cord-and-plug-connected with a flexible cord
identified as suitable for the purpose in the installation instructions
of the appliance manufacturer where all of the
following conditions are met:
*
(1)* The flexible cord shall be terminated with a grounding type
attachment plug.
*
Exception:* _A listed dishwasher or trash compactor distinctly
marked to identify it as protected by a system of
double insulation, or its equivalent, shall not be required to
be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug._
*
(2)* The length of the cord shall be 0.9 m to 1.2 m (3 ft to
4 ft) measured from the face of the attachment plug to
the plane of the rear of the appliance.
*
(3)* Receptacles shall be located to avoid physical damage
to the flexible cord.
*
(4)* The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied
by the appliance or adjacent thereto.
*
(5)* The receptacle shall be _accessible_.


Wait for it...


Wait for it...


Wait for it...


Wait for it...


Wait for it...


Wait for it...

*Accessible (as applied to wiring methods).* Capable of
being removed or exposed without damaging the building
structure or finish or _not permanently closed in_ by the structure
or finish of the building.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

There was a period when we installed a switch on the counter backsplash to disconect they dishwasher electrical supply. It was an interpretation of the code that has since lapsed or is not enforced around here.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Low, because that's typically where there is the most room between the wall and the dishwasher. :thumbsup:


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## bmart (Dec 28, 2011)

MasterE said:


> The rec or disconnect needs to be readily accessible, and behind the dishwasher
> is not readily accessible.


So why not install a receptacle in the wall adjacent to the dishwasher inside the sink cabinet. I did 38 years ago and it works fine with a three prong plug cord set wired to the dishwasher for disconnecting. This was finished plaster and brick on the outside wall and pulled from the basement on a dedicated circuit.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

bmart said:


> So why not install a receptacle in the wall adjacent to the dishwasher inside the sink cabinet. I did 24 years ago and it works fine with a three prong plug cord set wired to the dishwasher for disconnecting. This was finished plaster and brick on the outside wall and pulled from the basement on a dedicated circuit.


If you look at my previous post, you'll see that I posted the exact article this falls under...


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

crazyboy said:


> Low, because that's typically where there is the most room between the wall and the dishwasher. :thumbsup:


Now there's a man that has installed a dishwasher.


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Spot on Glodenboy!


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Stab&Shoot said:


> This is a silly thread. I've done it both ways. W/ plug and hardwired. There deffinately is no code against an outlet at that height. It's not a countertop circuit. There are millions of baseboard plugs in the world. The advantage of attaching a UL approved S-cord is that a plumber can remove the dishwasher without calling the EC. Its only a 120v appliance. Some common sense applied here may be too much for your brain to handle. The outlet IMO is the BEST option. It has been accepted and approved of by my high end clients and the AHJ.


Not too much for my brain to handle, just did not look right to me being where it is. Like I stated its normqlly under the sink.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I have never cord and plug connected a DW but if I did, i would put the receptacle exactly where he did.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Many codes and many problems involved in the answer to this one. For starters a cord that is used for a dw should be listed as suitable for the purpose per the manufacturers instruction. 

Goldenboys post of art. 422.16 states this req. in (B)(2). How many EC use a cord that is listed as such-- I bet not many.

I have found that the easiest method for me is to install a JB in the wall under the kitchen sink at rough in. I take a tail (switch leg) from the box to inside the dishwasher space. If the DW is a cord and plug connected from the factory Then I disconnect the switch leg under the sink and install a recep. If it is direct wire I put a switch in that box. 

The dishwasher does not necessarily need to come out to work on it so imo, behind the unit is a terrible place for the receptacle and should not be allowed unless you had a breaker lock at the panel.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The dishwasher does not necessarily need to come out to work on it so imo, behind the unit is a terrible place for the receptacle and should not be allowed unless you had a breaker lock at the panel.


Agreed. But the way that it's written right now, terrible place or not, it's a legal install.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> Agreed. But the way that it's written right now, terrible place or not, it's a legal install.


 I agree that is why I said "IMO" :thumbsup:


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## bruce6670 (Apr 27, 2010)

Are you allowed to hard wire a dishwasher? If so, what type of wire would you use that would allow you to pull the dishwasher out ? 

I only do commercial work, so I'm not up on all the residential stuff.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I agree that is why I said "IMO" :thumbsup:


My niece has been screaming bloody murder for the last two hours, my sister has been letting it drag on with hardly any interference. Needless to say I'm a little jaded right now and having a hard time focusing. :laughing:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

bruce6670 said:


> Are you allowed to hard wire a dishwasher? If so, what type of wire would you use that would allow you to pull the dishwasher out ?
> 
> I only do commercial work, so I'm not up on all the residential stuff.


NM cable, "Romex" would be fine. Just leave enough slack to get it out.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

rnichols said:


> Because he told the HO that the whole kitchen had to be rewired since the dishwasher was on a counter switch and that was against code. There was about three pages of stuff he said was code violations...



K- Got here late- too lazey to read.

"He" is who. ?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bruce6670 said:


> Are you allowed to hard wire a dishwasher? If so, what type of wire would you use that would allow you to pull the dishwasher out ?
> 
> I only do commercial work, so I'm not up on all the residential stuff.


We just use romex in a residence. I guess one could argue the lack of stapling. We install the wire while the dishwasher is outside the space. This way there is plenty of slack. Some of the Bosch units would make it impossible to use any other method other than mc or some small cable. Those units just have a small channel for the wire to run thru.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

rnichols said:


> Maybe.. I just know the guy that trained me would have walked up behind me and beat the ever living snot outta me with whatever he could have found if i put an outlet that low for the dishwasher..



Hit him back and call him a MORON.:thumbsup: 

Then ask,Nicely,for him to teach you something.:thumbsup:


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

leland said:


> K- Got here late- too lazey to read.
> 
> "He" is who. ?



The electrician that the home owner fired, I found out a little bit ago when I called to tell the HO that I wasn't sure that it was really a code violation, but her husband says there is a 6 page list of failures from the inspector for me to review and go over.


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

rnichols said:


> Not too much for my brain to handle, just did not look right to me being where it is. Like I stated its normqlly under the sink.


Sorry for the derogatory comment. Shouldn't have said it like that.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Many codes and many problems involved in the answer to this one. For starters a cord that is used for a dw should be listed as suitable for the purpose per the manufacturers instruction.
> 
> Goldenboys post of art. 422.16 states this req. in (B)(2). How many EC use a cord that is listed as such-- I bet not many.
> 
> ...


I had worked with an EC who apartment and tract housing. When he purchased the dishwashers and disposals, he would order the units with the manufacturer's cord set. A hole was drilled in the cabinet to pass the cord through. We then used a MWBC and split the hot side of the duplex receptacle. One got passed thru a switch to power the disposal, and the other directly to the other receptacle to which the dishwasher was plugged. That was several years ago, so is that even an option anymore?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

rnichols said:


> Because he told the HO that the whole kitchen had to be rewired since the dishwasher was on a counter switch and that was against code. There was about three pages of stuff he said was code violations...



Who is he?:whistling2:


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

leland said:


> Who is he?:whistling2:



He=Fired Electrician


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Stab&Shoot said:


> Of course I'm not saying that it's ok to put it on the 2 countertop circuits. I personally always put the garbage disposal and DW on a circuit. 20 amp.



That would be a violation-Code-


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I have never cord and plug connected a DW but if I did, i would put the receptacle exactly where he did.


Must suck not having any new work to do.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The smart thing is to get all the cut sheets for the appliances going into a new kitchen..

Too many variables out there to avoid a problem on the finish..


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

leland said:


> Must suck not having any new work to do.


 
I've got work to do for three months if my phone quit ringing tomorrow. I hardwire all mine.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Plug and cord connection for dishwashers is how I roll.


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## Manbearpig (Dec 15, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> I had worked with an EC who apartment and tract housing. When he purchased the dishwashers and disposals, he would order the units with the manufacturer's cord set. A hole was drilled in the cabinet to pass the cord through. We then used a MWBC and split the hot side of the duplex receptacle. One got passed thru a switch to power the disposal, and the other directly to the other receptacle to which the dishwasher was plugged. That was several years ago, so is that even an option anymore?


That is always how I've done it. It makes for an easy install because there is generally no need to coordinate between the appliance installer and myself. I dont have to be there because he just has to plug it in. Also most people around here are moving to air switches for the disposal, and they cut them right into the counter top. So all I need is a duplex rec. on a mwbc in the sink cabinet.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

B4T said:


> The smart thing is to get all the cut sheets for the appliances going into a new kitchen..
> 
> Too many variables out there to avoid a problem on the finish..


Wow! you get that info before the rough!!? We need your secret.:thumbsup:


"I hardwire all mine. "

MAC- That aint compliant.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

leland said:


> "I hardwire all mine. "
> 
> MAC- That aint compliant.


Why not?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Why not?


Then need a disconnect or a lockable breaker. I use to hardwire all mine with MC, now cord plug them. Inspector likes the cord better.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

backstay said:


> Then need a disconnect or a lockable breaker. I use to hardwire all mine with MC, now cord plug them. Inspector likes the cord better.


I was asking leland but thanks :thumbup: I don't do much new resi construction but I've done a few dedicated dishwasher circuits and I usually cord & plug them.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Why not?



Good ? I'll put my beer down-(but not too far away) and get back to ya.:thumbsup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

leland said:


> Good ? I'll put my beer down-(but not too far away) and get back to ya.:thumbsup:


I hate to be considered the guy that separated a man from his beer, but okie dokie :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

leland said:


> Wow! you get that info before the rough!!? We need your secret.:thumbsup:


I tell the builder.._ "To avoid cutting holes later".. _usually gets their attention..


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## Sky Seattle (Jul 5, 2011)

*Agree with these*



Manbearpig said:


> That is always how I've done it. It makes for an easy install because there is generally no need to coordinate between the appliance installer and myself. I dont have to be there because he just has to plug it in. Also most people around here are moving to air switches for the disposal, and they cut them right into the counter top. So all I need is a duplex rec. on a mwbc in the sink cabinet.





jmsmith said:


> I had worked with an EC who apartment and tract housing. When he purchased the dishwashers and disposals, he would order the units with the manufacturer's cord set. A hole was drilled in the cabinet to pass the cord through. We then used a MWBC and split the hot side of the duplex receptacle. One got passed thru a switch to power the disposal, and the other directly to the other receptacle to which the dishwasher was plugged. That was several years ago, so is that even an option anymore?


This is also how I have done it for about 11 years. Simple, efficient, safe:thumbup:


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

We hardwire all our disposals and dishwashers in Canada.Not really supposed to pass cords or cabtire through holes in walls or cabinets either.14/3 home run to j.b.under sink then branch out to dishwasher and counter switch for disposal.And no tie handle on double pole brkr. is required either.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

B4T said:


> I tell the builder.._ "To avoid cutting holes later".. _usually gets their attention..


 
Also not only avoid cutting wrong hole and addtional charge later if the plans was not in drawing.

Merci,
Marc


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> The smart thing is to get all the cut sheets for the appliances going into a new kitchen..
> 
> Too many variables out there to avoid a problem on the finish..


That is an absolute must.


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