# Does 277/480v exist in Canada?



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Recently I read in a local trade magazine(I think it was called "Electrical Source" or something) about a hospital in London, Ontario. The article was about dealing with harmonics in a building so they were talking about the K-rated transformers that had been used in the hospital. In the article it said the transformers stepped down the incoming service voltage to 120/208v and...277/480v? :huh:

In this land of 347/600v why would they use 277/480? Would they have some motors which absolutely had to be run at 480v? Or are there entire areas of Canada where 277/480 is more common? I thought at least as far as Ontario went every place was on the 347/600v system.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

we had some 480v motors in the lab at school, but never run into one on the field, but I don't tend to deal with motors much in residential (outside of bathroom fans....LOL), so IDK.


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## HackSmasher (Mar 11, 2010)

I had to hook up some 480v equipment a few weeks ago in a factory. You generally will not see it unless some company buys some specialized American equipment to run.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

A paper mills near here use 575 volt Canadian equipment. How common is 575 in the rest of Canada?


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## Buddha In Babylon (Mar 23, 2009)

i was just asking somebody about 347/600 the other day. I had no idea that was typical in Canada. Wow. I feel so naive.:blink:


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

I have run into a few different office buildings with the 480 power in different cities up here. At first it surprised me then I realized many of these buildings were being built by American companies using their regular Designers and Architects who in turn use their own engineering firms to do the initial designs.

I also know of a couple of plants that were designed to use the 480 in each of these the primary supplier of the machines they use is American and it saves them money because now they can buy the machines without paying the upcharge of getting indiviual transformers or paying to have it converted by the manufacturer to 600v.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

gardiner said:


> I also know of a couple of plants that were designed to use the 480 in each of these the primary supplier of the machines they use is American and it saves them money because now they can buy the machines without paying the upcharge of getting indiviual transformers or paying to have it converted by the manufacturer to 600v.


What are you talking about? 
I don't know of any 347/600 equipment that gets modified to run 347/600. When ordering a motor you order the right one, when ordering lighting ballasts you order the right one. etc.

Lots of plants here have both 480 and 600. Any 480 work I do it on the OLD parts, anything probably 20yr old or newest that I have personally seen is 600, older then 20 yrs and it could be either.

Hospitals here are all 347/600 for the most part, the oldest parts will have 120 lighting instead of 347 though. New commercial is 347/600.


Why doesn't the states use 347/600 much? Especially for lighting.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> What are you talking about?
> I don't know of any 347/600 equipment that gets modified to run 347/600. When ordering a motor you order the right one, when ordering lighting ballasts you order the right one. etc.
> 
> Lots of plants here have both 480 and 600. Any 480 work I do it on the OLD parts, anything probably 20yr old or newest that I have personally seen is 600, older then 20 yrs and it could be either.
> ...


Your right I don't know any 347/600 equipment that had to be modified to run 347/600 but then I don’t believe I said that. I have seen equipment rated for 480V modified through the use of transformers etc... to run off the 600v system. Which if you think about it is a big waste of money. If your primary supplier of the machinery required to manufacture an item is American why not adopt the system that is the most compliant to running the equipment. In some cases manufacturers are adopting this principal (not on a large scale but for a practice to become big normally it starts from small beginnings) as a method of keeping cost down. I am not speaking of electrical manufactures I am speaking of the manufacturers of the few items (outside oil and gas) Canada still produces for home use and export. 

There are office buildings in Alberta with 277/480 power specifically in Calgary, some in Vancouver and there are also a few in Toronto most of which are less then 20 years old but there would be some older. The reason I believe the practice of having the office building built with 277/480v power is still going on I just specified some 277v switches to go into a building in Toronto that is under design review right now. It also seems to me I did a design for a company just south of Calgary where all the lighting was 277 in their new building, but that was four or five years ago.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

gardiner said:


> Your right I don't know any 347/600 equipment that had to be modified to run 347/600 but then I don’t believe I said that. I have seen equipment rated for 480V modified through the use of transformers etc... to run off the 600v system. Which if you think about it is a big waste of money. If your primary supplier of the machinery required to manufacture an item is American why not adopt the system that is the most compliant to running the equipment. In some cases manufacturers are adopting this principal (not on a large scale but for a practice to become big normally it starts from small beginnings) as a method of keeping cost down. I am not speaking of electrical manufactures I am speaking of the manufacturers of the few items (outside oil and gas) Canada still produces for home use and export.
> 
> There are office buildings in Alberta with 277/480 power specifically in Calgary, some in Vancouver and there are also a few in Toronto most of which are less then 20 years old but there would be some older. The reason I believe the practice of having the office building built with 277/480v power is still going on I just specified some 277v switches to go into a building in Toronto that is under design review right now. It also seems to me I did a design for a company just south of Calgary where all the lighting was 277 in their new building, but that was four or five years ago.


Having 600 and 480 in an electrical room isn't uncommon, transformers are cheap. 

I don't know why you would go 277 here instead of 347, I can go to any supplier and get 347/600 anything, but 277 is almost always a custom order.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

277/480 or 347/600 Any more it is a toss up which ever is availible at the time of design. See a lot 277/480 machines that are moved up here or bought used. heck even hooking up 600 to 380/220 isn't uncommon around here anymore you really have to keep your eyes open when wiring anything near the border :blink:


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> Having 600 and 480 in an electrical room isn't uncommon, transformers are cheap.
> 
> I don't know why you would go 277 here instead of 347, I can go to any supplier and get 347/600 anything, but 277 is almost always a custom order.



Depends on the area for supply of 277 parts closer to the boarder parts are easier to find but as time goes on they will become common even farther north. Transformers being cheap that's not really the truth in the eyes of the client that knows nothing about electricity, explaining why they need both in Canada when they only have one in the States is not that easy to do its easier to give them what they are asking for and call it a day the upcharge on doing 277/480 system compared to a 347/600 is great, make the money keep them happy and bank the profit. 
South of the boarder is one of the largest consumers in the world so therefore more things are built with them in mind which means if company "A" uses a decor in all their American offices which they use as a way of putting across their image when they open an office in Canada they like to use the same style and parts. That can include say a dual relay motion sensor for their lighting in conference rooms try and get one of them for 347 without it being a special order. 
For the most part offices are designed to make a statement, the interior designer envisions what the space will look like and then it is up to the engineer or who ever has the specific contract to pick the system to match up not only by function but appearance too. Why someone would use common sense in doing any of this is beyond me. If I am told the clients agents want a switch to have a certain look and do something they have seen or read about then I try my very best to find it and pray its not something out of Europe that might be a real nightmare to deal with. If they want lights sold only in the States and are willing to pay the price of getting them listed through cUL or CSA all the power to them. I will do it and the next project I already know of the listed product I can use without too much trouble.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> What are you talking about?
> I don't know of any 347/600 equipment that gets modified to run 347/600. When ordering a motor you order the right one, when ordering lighting ballasts you order the right one. etc.
> 
> Lots of plants here have both 480 and 600. Any 480 work I do it on the OLD parts, anything probably 20yr old or newest that I have personally seen is 600, older then 20 yrs and it could be either.
> ...





The US NEC limits interior lighting to less than 300 volts. 480 volt lighting is limited to elevated outdoor lighting. See NEC article 210.6 ( 2008 code ) This change was implemented in the 2005 code. Until then, in industrial plants, 480 volt lighting was common.

In Canada, are you required to use a higher rated insulation than 600 volt on systems that operate at 600 volts? Just wondering. The actual bleed through voltage, on THHN, is probably around 1200 to 1400 volts. Do y'all use THHN or something more flexible in cold conditions? I realize that most of Canada is not in the Arctic, but some insulations get really brittle in winter weather.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

The higher the voltage the cheaper the installation.How many more lights can you put on a 347V circuit compared to a 277V.Less material and less labour.How many more amps does a 480V motor draw than a 600V?Once again more economical!That's a good thing.I remember once when i was an apprentice my boss handed me a ballast pointed to a fixture and told me to fix it.Put the new ballast in turned the light on and poof went the ballast.I told the boss and he said it must have been a bad ballast.He gave me another one and i installed it,turned the switch on and poof went the ballast yet again!He scratched his head then said oh it must be 347V!Thanks boss!More guys have probably been hurt on 347 circuits than anything else.Some parts of Canada it's not all that common for lights to be 347.When you pop open a ceiling tile everthing looks 120.I would support a code rule that would require any 347 cables to have a visible red tracer on the outside sheath or something.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

varmit said:


> The US NEC limits interior lighting to less than 300 volts. 480 volt lighting is limited to elevated outdoor lighting. See NEC article 210.6 ( 2008 code ) This change was implemented in the 2005 code. Until then, in industrial plants, 480 volt lighting was common.
> 
> In Canada, are you required to use a higher rated insulation than 600 volt on systems that operate at 600 volts? Just wondering. The actual bleed through voltage, on THHN, is probably around 1200 to 1400 volts. Do y'all use THHN or something more flexible in cold conditions? I realize that most of Canada is not in the Arctic, but some insulations get really brittle in winter weather.


only on vfd run motors in case of over speeds we run 1kv rated cable. How ever Dafasco one of the steel mills here in Hamilton Ontario went to 1kv cable insulation plant wide all curcuits


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## Mr 440 (Nov 10, 2008)

No 480 volts power here Canada 
Only on american shop Kraft food Montreal plant buldind and motor force its 480 
the raison is may be relocate the production line in usa plant or usa to canada i ts more easy to transfert all line .


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I have hooked up a lot of 480 equipment here, only one plant I worked in had an incoming service of 277/480 Volt. 

Have any of you Toronto guys seen 208/416 Volt systems downtown? That one really threw me off the first time I saw it!

You get 208v line to ground and 416v line to line. It was only used for lighting to my understanding. Getting magnetic ballasts for that system was annoying till they came out with electronic multi voltage ballasts.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

varmit said:


> The US NEC limits interior lighting to less than 300 volts. 480 volt lighting is limited to elevated outdoor lighting. See NEC article 210.6 ( 2008 code ) This change was implemented in the 2005 code. Until then, in industrial plants, 480 volt lighting was common.
> 
> In Canada, are you required to use a higher rated insulation than 600 volt on systems that operate at 600 volts? Just wondering. The actual bleed through voltage, on THHN, is probably around 1200 to 1400 volts. Do y'all use THHN or something more flexible in cold conditions? I realize that most of Canada is not in the Arctic, but some insulations get really brittle in winter weather.


Less then 300 volts eh? That sucks. 
We use 600v rated T90 for the most part. If its going outside then usually RW90. RW90 pulls just fine in the cold, -25 or colder and generally we just do other stuff until its a bit warmer. Only time I remember the inside being "cold" (like needing more then a sweater) on a site was my short time in residential, everything else has been heated pretty well.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

varmit said:


> In Canada, are you required to use a higher rated insulation than 600 volt on systems that operate at 600 volts? Just wondering. The actual bleed through voltage, on THHN, is probably around 1200 to 1400 volts. Do y'all use THHN or something more flexible in cold conditions? I realize that most of Canada is not in the Arctic, but some insulations get really brittle in winter weather.


Nope.. Regular R90 is good for 600v, and obviously in a 600v system you only have 347 on any phase conductor so your good to go


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