# ibew



## statik1991 (Aug 1, 2012)

I am an apprentice and am thinking about joining the union is it worth joining?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

statik1991 said:


> I am an apprentice and am thinking about joining the union is it worth joining?


If you can get in and you end up working 40 hours a week yes.

Welcome to the forum:thumbup:


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> If you can get in and you end up working 40 hours a week yes.
> 
> Welcome to the forum:thumbup:


40 hours is never guaranteed union or not. Even without 40 I'd still go union. Save your money when you're packed so you can live good when you're not.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

You will learn the most from the guys around you, the rest on your own .

go Union .



Don


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

statik1991 said:


> I am an apprentice and am thinking about joining the union is it worth joining?


 
What Local? Are they accepting applications? Do you meet their education requirements? Is the Local working all members? Have you called the hall yet and spoken to the JATC Coordinator?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

donaldelectrician said:


> You will learn the most from the guys around you, the rest on your own .
> 
> go Union .
> 
> Don



You will learn the most from open shop or union it has NOTHING to do with a trade union or not it has to do with the men you work with.

Having said that if you can get in and there is work go union, if they have no work WHY BOTHER.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

statik1991 said:


> I am an apprentice and am thinking about joining the union is it worth joining?


The upside of joining a union is usually much greater than the downside. 

No union or private company can guarantee 40 hours a week work, nor can any of them predict and protect you from economic downturns like we are currently experiencing. 

However, while I have had several long layoffs I have never lost my health and welfare coverage, nor my pension or any of my other benefits. 

If I chose to, I can travel around the country to the places that have work and work through any local union in that area.

I am required to pay dues and follow union rules. Sometimes those rules, written or unwritten, will get in the way of your short term personal wealth and well being and sometimes the rules seem bent against you.

There is a wave of anti union sentiment sweeping across the country and there is a bit of abuse one has to accept from folks for going union. I don't understand it, but it is there. I generally chalk it up to jealousy.

I cannot speak for private industry as I have no real experience there, just stories folks have told me, but given the choice, I would highly recommend going union.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> The upside of joining a union is usually much greater than the downside.
> 
> No union or private company can guarantee 40 hours a week work, nor can any of them predict and protect you from economic downturns like we are currently experiencing.
> 
> ...


Why would you chalk it up to jealousy when you also admitted you have no experience in an open shop? 

To the OP, do whatever you want. I didn't go union personally, and am glad I didn't. There's very little union work in my area but maybe elsewhere. There's pluses and minuses for both. Make your own decision and don't base it off what other people tell you. The union electricians will tell you it's the greatest. Open electricians will tell you they're the greatest. Do whatever makes you money.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Why would you chalk it up to jealousy when you also admitted you have no experience in an open shop?


I'm not sure what else to call an unreasonable hated for unions. Unions are like any other organization - they have good and bad members, good and bad administrations, yet the current anti union rhetoric is very high, very pointed and very misleading.

My choices are folks are being lead around like sheep, being told what to do, how to think and what to say by large business interests that benefit from the weakening of unions, or jealousy. I prefer to think that folks are not so easily lead...

Now, I have no direct non-union experience ( or open as you put it ), that is true. However, I cannot see how being able to be fired at will, having to negotiate my own wages, set my own safety standards, set my own work conditions and work practices would benefit me.

Doing whatever makes you money *short term* may not be your best choice over the long haul. I know very few non union electricians who do not own their own shops that do as well as most union electricians over their entire careers. However, if OP is looking to break into the contracting end of the business, then going non union is probably a good choice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I'm not sure what else to call an unreasonable hated for unions. Unions are like any other organization - they have good and bad members, good and bad administrations, yet the current anti union rhetoric is very high, very pointed and very misleading.
> e.


Being picketed
Being stopped from work
Verbal attacks
Bigotry of union members
Restricted membership.


I have never thought it had anything to do with jealousy


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Being picketed
> Being stopped from work
> Verbal attacks
> Bigotry of union members
> ...


That goes in both directions...
Being sued and jailed for picketing
Being forced off of projects/denied jobs due to union membership
Verbal attacks.
Physical attacks.
Bigotry of non union members.

What I don't is why, and why more so now than any other time in my memory. What is the cause?

How many people can say, I mean actually and truly say, that a union has adversely effected their life? Very few and only in a handful of instances.

Jobs that get done with union contractors instead of non union contractors? Passed over for a union membership? Compared to all the things that unions brought *everyone* who works in America.

So what doesn't make sense to me is the hate...where is it coming from, who is driving it, why now and why with such depth. While I can guess at the answers, I truly don't want to think of my fellow Americans as that naive, so I prefer to think of it as jealousy.

And every time I hear about how the times for unions are past and we don't need them anymore, I hear about some company cutting wages or benefits to give their CEO yet another bonus. I see the disparity between wage workers and top executives growing. I see the middle class has mostly disappeared. 

Every attack on unions is an attack on workers. All workers. And I cannot believe that people are stupid enough to destroy their own way of life to help put more money in some CEO or bankers' pocket, so I prefer to think of it as jealousy.

I look at who it hurts and who it benefits. Does it benefit us as electricians to attack unions? Heck no. Tearing down unions cheapens all of our work. Does it benefit small business owners to destroy workers? Heck no, small businesses depend more on the good relationships with their workers than having 'cheap' labor. Who benefits? Large businesses, not us, not anyone who uses this site for certain.

To the OP - my apologies for derailing the thread. Make the best decision for *your*self and *your* goals. Think about where you might want to be in the future.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> T
> What I don't is why, and why more so now than any other time in my memory. What is the cause?


Because unions get bad press and do NOTHING to counter that press
They pull CRAP and when interviewed they are proud of the CRAP.



> How many people can say, I mean actually and truly say, that a union has adversely effected their life? Very few and only in a handful of instances.


As a union contractor I had a idiot union member sabotage my trucks. (The idiot thought we were an open shop contractor)

As a helper union members filled all our conduits in the deck with mastic.

As a foreman I had.
Salts cause job problems.
Had union plumbers cause job problems and constantly raising SH*T with the union GC trying to get us thrown off the job.

Just crap I did not need and feeds into the public record how using union men results in problem jobs. 

I can truly say I know of NO instances (not saying they don't exist) where open shop men messed with union members there are plenty of documented cases of union members screwing with open shop workers.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> I'm not sure what else to call an unreasonable hated for unions. Unions are like any other organization - they have good and bad members, good and bad administrations, yet the current anti union rhetoric is very high, very pointed and very misleading.
> 
> My choices are folks are being lead around like sheep, being told what to do, how to think and what to say by large business interests that benefit from the weakening of unions, or jealousy. I prefer to think that folks are not so easily lead...
> 
> ...


Thanks for making my point 100%, and very eloquently I might add. 

Since you have no working knowledge of an open shop, how can you form an opinion? Yeah, didn't think so. 

It's the same as judging a food as being gross, without tasting it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Because unions get bad press and do NOTHING to counter that press
> They pull CRAP and when interviewed they are proud of the CRAP.


I expect that since our experiences are completely different we might not ever see eye to eye on the topic. My local self polices the type of stuff you mention very severely. I'm sorry your experiences have been so bad, but not every local and every union is that way.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I expect that since our experiences are completely different we might not ever see eye to eye on the topic. My local self polices the type of stuff you mention very severely. I'm sorry your experiences have been so bad, but not every local and every union is that way.


It is not locals necessarily it is the UNIONS as a whole, when the jacko*fs from SEUI pull the nasty viscous crap they pull regularly all unions are painted with a broad brush of being SKUNKS, we all reap the bad press of a few.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Over the years the economy has roller coastered all over the place. The members here who have more than 30 years in the trade can tell you that they have had excellent money making years rolling into years where they made less then back up again. This has been a gobal market down swing with high unemployment and people will do what ever it takes to earn a living. This has torn union and non-union shops apart. As for union shops the benefits in a large portion of the country are no longer any better than alot of open shops. More and more locals no longer have vacation, sick time as a benefit, offer only the IO retirement and a simple IRA and the medical benefit package offers less such as eye and dental. The health package can take up to 3 months to qualify but only 1 1/2 months of no work to be dropped. It is great to see large metro cities being able to provide their locals with the best wages and benefit packages but how many members can they support at this time? Are they taking travelers working book 2?

One thing that is being seen more now than ever is large jobs with both union and non-union shops working on job sites. And both showing their a*sses.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Thanks for making my point 100%, and very eloquently I might add.
> 
> Since you have no working knowledge of an open shop, how can you form an opinion? Yeah, didn't think so.
> 
> It's the same as judging a food as being gross, without tasting it.


So your entire point is because I have never worked non union the OP should work non union?

How about instead of that, why don't you put out the benefits of working non union for the OP. What is it about being a non union worker that OP might find appealing or to his liking.

I know lots of union and non union workers and have heard lots of pros and cons. It is true, I am pro union and have not worked electric outside of my union, so instead of my bias, give the fellow some reasons to go non union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I expect that since our experiences are completely different we might not ever see eye to eye on the topic. My local self polices the type of stuff you mention very severely. I'm sorry your experiences have been so bad, but not every local and every union is that way.


Very true, but I would bet every local has super pro members that would trash an open shop member in a red hot second and unfortunately that makes the local and unions as a whole bad.

Additionally SEIU gets enough bad press to do more than their fair share of damage to the union cause.

The union movement does NOTHING positive to change their tarnished image, I mean Wisconsin was such a stellar moment for unions. Idiots, doing idiotic crap, looking like fools, a shining union moment.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

It seems to me that both pro's and con's are being biased and self centered. Without taking account that the thread starter was requesting viable advice. I am of the opinion that a person will find more opportunity to education,medical and retirement benefits by working union.That same person will probably be able to find more opportunity of employment working nonunion.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> The union movement does NOTHING positive to change their tarnished image, I mean Wisconsin was such a stellar moment for unions. Idiots, doing idiotic crap, looking like fools, a shining union moment.


We really did have an opportunity to rise above and shine in Wisconsin and we let that opportunity pass.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> How many people can say, I mean actually and truly say, that a union has adversely effected their life? Very few and only in a handful of instances.


But, you have no experience in an open shop, so you have no idea. Ever worked with another JW who was useless? Bet you have. Did he continue to keep his job? Yep. 



eejack said:


> Compared to all the things that unions brought *everyone* who works in America.


Which most, if not all, are thankful for. So, pat yourself on the back, and get over it. 



eejack said:


> So what doesn't make sense to me is the hate...where is it coming from, who is driving it, why now and why with such depth. While I can guess at the answers, I truly don't want to think of my fellow Americans as that naive, so I prefer to think of it as jealousy.


Again, jealous of what? 



eejack said:


> And every time I hear about how the times for unions are past and we don't need them anymore, I hear about some company cutting wages or benefits to give their CEO yet another bonus. I see the disparity between wage workers and top executives growing. I see the middle class has mostly disappeared.


So, the union has never cut wages or had layoffs? You don't think that the executives at the IBEW office in DC make a profit? Do you even know how much they pay them? I do. It's ALOT. 



eejack said:


> Every attack on unions is an attack on workers. All workers. And I cannot believe that people are stupid enough to destroy their own way of life to help put more money in some CEO or bankers' pocket, so I prefer to think of it as jealousy.


No, not true at all. I have no problem with union electricians. None whatsoever. That's their decision, and I can respect that. However, I do not respect the union as a whole. 

Do you know how much the executive made last year? 



eejack said:


> I look at who it hurts and who it benefits. Does it benefit us as electricians to attack unions? Heck no.


Nope, it doesn't, correct. 



eejack said:


> Tearing down unions cheapens all of our work.


Bull****. 



eejack said:


> Does it benefit small business owners to destroy workers? Heck no, small businesses depend more on the good relationships with their workers than having 'cheap' labor. Who benefits? Large businesses, not us, not anyone who uses this site for certain.


Huh? 



eejack said:


> To the OP - my apologies for derailing the thread. Make the best decision for *your*self and *your* goals. Think about where you might want to be in the future.


I agree.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by eejack
> And every time I hear about how the times for unions are past and we don't need them anymore, I hear about some company cutting wages or benefits to give their CEO yet another bonus. I see the disparity between wage workers and top executives growing. I see the middle class has mostly disappeared.


My employees made (JWs) $90,000-$125,000 last years so maybe they are part of the disappearing middle class as they rise to the 10%??


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> So your entire point is because I have never worked non union the OP should work non union?


Not at all. I said, very specifically, that he should do whatever he wants. Did you miss that? Or do you like inventing strawmen? 

Do I need to explain myself differently? 

YOU cannot call non-union JW's jealous, when you have no knowledge of working non-union. You're an entirely biased opinion. 



eejack said:


> How about instead of that, why don't you put out the benefits of working non union for the OP. What is it about being a non union worker that OP might find appealing or to his liking.


Ask Brian John about his experience as a union EC. He'll tell you all about it. 

I've already told the OP to pick whichever he wants. Both have good and bad. I never advocated he not go union. 

But, ONE thing that I don't agree with, is being forced to picket. I would be the first to tell ya'll picketers to F off, and get back to work. 

Sorry, the brotherhood isn't going to put food on my table, and a roof over my head, if there's no work, or a work stoppage. 

Now, go ahead and call me biased and selfish. 



eejack said:


> I know lots of union and non union workers and have heard lots of pros and cons. It is true, I am pro union and have not worked electric outside of my union, so instead of my bias, give the fellow some reasons to go non union.


Why would I? I'm not trying to pollute his decision making process. It's entirely up to him. Either choice is fine. But he needs to do whatever will make him the most money NOW.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Since you have no working knowledge of an open shop, how can you form an opinion? Yeah, didn't think so.
> 
> It's the same as judging a food as being gross, without tasting it.


 
You sure have an opinion of the union shops




TooFarFromFenway said:


> To the OP, do whatever you want. I didn't go union personally, and am glad I didn't.


 
with no "working knowledge"




TooFarFromFenway said:


> But, ONE thing that I don't agree with, is being *forced* to picket. I would be the first to tell ya'll picketers to F off, and get back to work.


Not true. I'm sure the rowdy ones would volunteer though. Never had to pickett and we have a no strike clause in my jurisdiction.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> Ever worked with another JW who was useless?


Yes





TooFarFromFenway said:


> Did he continue to keep his job?


No. I have personally seen a one man layoff with 80+ guys on a job.




TooFarFromFenway said:


> So, the union has never cut wages or had layoffs?


 
The union does not cut wages, there would have to be an agreement between contractors and members known as a contract.

The union does not have layoffs, contractors do when work is slow or Mr. Worthless is not doing his job.

To me the IBEW is like the local job service. I go there and get a referral to work for a contractor. If I get laid off they see if I can work somewhere else. Yes you have to pay dues and follow certain rules but personally I have had it pretty good.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> My employees made (JWs) $90,000-$125,000 last years so maybe they are part of the disappearing middle class as they rise to the 10%??


Good for them. I'm glad someone is doing well in this economy. Our local is currently at 60% employment - as are most of the NJ locals. Local non union electricians are running around $20 per hour, craigslist at $10.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> The union does not cut wages, there would have to be an agreement between contractors and members known as a contract.


SO YES they do cut wages, when members and contractors agree upon it, typically to try to secure certain work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Good for them. I'm glad someone is doing well in this economy. Our local is currently at 60% employment - as are most of the NJ locals. Local non union electricians are running around $20 per hour, craigslist at $10.


So if your local and members had any common sense they would be cutting wages, at least temporally.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

347sparky said:


> You sure have an opinion of the union shops


I do. However, it's not entirely bad. I'd say it's about 60/40 in favor of open. 



347sparky said:


> with no "working knowledge"


Incorrect sir. 



347sparky said:


> Not true. I'm sure the rowdy ones would volunteer though. Never had to pickett and we have a no strike clause in my jurisdiction.


In YOUR jurisdiction. Gotcha. 



347sparky said:


> Yes


We all have.



347sparky said:


> No. I have personally seen a one man layoff with 80+ guys on a job.


So you're telling me that you've never seen a worthless JW keep his job, or "reassigned"? Your local my be the greatest local EVER!! (I've personally seen it.) 



347sparky said:


> The union does not cut wages, there would have to be an agreement between contractors and members known as a contract.


Incorrect. Call it whatever you want, it's a pay cut. 



347sparky said:


> *The union does not have layoffs*, contractors do when work is slow or Mr. Worthless is not doing his job.


So, semantics it is? Cool. Union contractors have plenty of layoffs. Again, just the same as non-union. 



347sparky said:


> To me the IBEW is like the local job service. I go there and get a referral to work for a contractor. If I *get laid off* they see if I can work somewhere else.


But, you just said that there are no layoffs? How's that work? 



347sparky said:


> Yes you have to pay dues and follow certain rules but personally I have had it pretty good.


And that is great! I'm seriously glad that you've done will with the union. Some do, some don't. Just the same as an open shop.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Now, go ahead and call me biased and selfish.
> 
> Why would I? I'm not trying to pollute his decision making process. It's entirely up to him. Either choice is fine. But he needs to do whatever will make him the most money NOW.


Okay, you are biased and selfish.

The fellow, at the start of his career is asking for some help. Instead of offering anything constructive, you are picking pedantic arguments with me.

Why does he have to make the most money NOW?

He is asking about a career.

And for someone hung up on pointing out I have never worked non union you offer nothing up in terms of what working non union means or offers. So these protestations on your part are hollow and rather pointless.

You could at least mention that if he worked non union, the available number of contractors is greater, the potential for employment is better since the amount of residential and commercial work in greater. The opportunities to work for small family owned businesses have lots of benefits that go beyond money.

Or you could point out that union wages are generally higher, that grand scale projects are more accessible and union electricians can travel to other locals to work.

But no, you would rather not 'pollute his decision making process'. 
So if you have nothing to offer, nothing to help him make a choice, what are you doing?


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> Good for them. I'm glad someone is doing well in this economy. Our local is currently at 60% employment - as are most of the NJ locals. Local non union electricians are running around $20 per hour, craigslist at $10.


So, that makes about 40% unemployment, or layoffs. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> So if your local and members had any common sense they would be cutting wages, at least temporally.


There isn't any work. For NJ it is never an issue of money per hour.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Why would you chalk it up to jealousy when you also admitted you have no experience in an open shop?
> 
> To the OP, do whatever you want. I didn't go union personally, and am glad I didn't. There's very little union work in my area but maybe elsewhere. There's pluses and minuses for both. Make your own decision and don't base it off what other people tell you. The union electricians will tell you it's the greatest. Open electricians will tell you they're the greatest. Do whatever makes you money.


I have worked both and after 30 years, the guys i know that stayed non-union have absolutely nothing to show for it. 
It isn't a short term decision, it's a career path and a rewarding commitment. 

But, you have to get in when work is good and make sure you work hard to keep your shop profitable. Both the electricians and the shop are a "golden goose" for the other.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack

I THINK (?) what he is saying there are positives and negatives in any choices he pointed out some of the negatives.

I feel if you can get in (TOUGH in the best of times) union is the way to go, 

BUT With 40% unemployment in your local and 50% nationwide I think at this time I would look at getting a job with a contractor that could offer a full time job.

While wages open shop most likely will be lower than union, IMO working is preferred to not working. 

Sitting drawing unemployment (if he could even get it) is not good for a person mentally and for that matter physically


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I have worked both and after 30 years, the guys i know that stayed non-union have absolutely nothing to show for it.
> It isn't a short term decision, it's a career path and a rewarding commitment.
> 
> But, you have to get in when work is good and make sure you work hard to keep your shop profitable. Both the electricians and the shop are a "golden goose" for the other.


I agree but in a market where IBEW has a 12% market share, 50% unemployment, open shop MAY BE the only option.

Long term with wages and benefits that follow you from shop to shop it is hard to beat union for a career choice for the average electrician.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

eejack said:


> Okay, you are biased and selfish.


Cool. Thanks. I've worked both union and non-union. So, I'm about as un-biased as you'll find. 



eejack said:


> The fellow, at the start of his career is asking for some help. Instead of offering anything constructive, you are picking pedantic arguments with me.


I offered my opinion. Did you miss that sir? The reason I replied to YOUR post sir, is to rebut your broad generalizations about jealousy, that you based on nothing but **** you pulled out of your underwear. 



eejack said:


> Why does he have to make the most money NOW?


If he's an apprentice, he'll need to choose what route will offer him the best education and also the most stable money. Once he gets his JW, his options are pretty open. 



eejack said:


> He is asking about a career.


Correct. And I offered the career advice I felt was best. 



eejack said:


> And for someone hung up on pointing out I have never worked non union you offer nothing up in terms of what working non union means or offers. So these protestations on your part are hollow and rather pointless.


Nope, not pointless. I told him the ONLY advice I was willing to offer, and that was to choose what's best for him. I'm not trying to sway him one way or another. It's strictly his decision. 




eejack said:


> You could at least mention that if he worked non union, the available number of contractors is greater, the potential for employment is better since the amount of residential and commercial work in greater. The opportunities to work for small family owned businesses have lots of benefits that go beyond money.


And you're right. 



eejack said:


> Or you could point out that union wages are generally higher, that grand scale projects are more accessible and union electricians can travel to other locals to work.


Again, you're right. 



eejack said:


> But no, you would rather not 'pollute his decision making process'.


Correct. I'd rather him make his decision based on the ability to pay his bills, support his family (if he's got family that depends on him) and live a lifestyle that he enjoys. 



eejack said:


> So if you have nothing to offer, nothing to help him make a choice, what are you doing?


Are you still not getting it sir? Perhaps you should have told him the pluses and minuses yourself. 

But again, it's completely his decision, but you shouldn't attempt to poison the well with your biased, incomplete opinion of open versus union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> There isn't any work. For NJ it is never an issue of money per hour.


That statement shows a total lack of understanding economics, business and how the free market works. Several members here that live in NJ and are working.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

jrannis said:


> I have worked both and after 30 years, the guys i know that stayed non-union have absolutely nothing to show for it.


And that's really s****y. One of the reasons I would have stayed union, was the retirement benefits. But, IMO, you're basically paying for your own retirement through the working and monthly dues. Take that same amount of money, and put it in a different IRA, and you're breaking even, possibly. 



jrannis said:


> It isn't a short term decision, it's a career path and a rewarding commitment.


Agreed, to a point. Once he's got the JW card, his options open quite a bit. 



jrannis said:


> But, you have to get in when work is good and make sure you work hard to keep your shop profitable. Both the electricians and the shop are a "golden goose" for the other.


Absolutely agree.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Originally Posted by *TooFarFromFenway*  
_To the OP, do whatever you want. I didn't go union personally, and am glad I didn't._

_I've worked both union and non-union._

_*So now you were in the IBEW?*_


_*Originally Posted by 347sparky ***
The union does not have layoffs, *contractors do* when work is slow or Mr. Worthless is not doing his job.
_

_So, semantics it is? Cool. Union contractors have plenty of layoffs. Again, just the same as non-union. _

_Originally Posted by *347sparky*  
To me the IBEW is like the local job service. I go there and get a referral to work for a contractor. If I get laid off they see if I can work somewhere else. 

_
_But, you just said that there are no layoffs? How's that work? _

_*You may want to work on your reading comprehension.*_

So you're telling me that you've never seen a worthless JW keep his job, or "reassigned"? Your local my be the greatest local EVER!! (I've personally seen it.) 

*It could be the greatest ever but I've never worked outside of this one.*
_
So you have been in the union and it didn't work out for you. You say you are unbiased but obviously you still have a big chip on your shoulder about the evil IBEW. If the OP wants to join he should, if he don't like it he can leave just like you did._


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

*347sparky said*
The union does not cut wages, *there would have to be* an agreement between contractors and members known as a contract.





brian john said:


> SO YES they do cut wages, when members and contractors agree upon it, typically to try to secure certain work.


*If* the members agreed to it, I suppose it *could* happen. Has it happened? Not to my knowledge.


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## Albertaelectric (May 4, 2012)

I employ a few union people. The ones I have are good workers and generally tow the line, in Canada Alberta specifically the ibew has made themselves undesirable for the oilsands. Until about 5 years ago it was more or less all union work in fort macmurray. Now I'm invited to bid on all projects and there are specific reps hired by all major players to help open shops get a piece of the work to keep progress on schedule up there. I don't have a problem with the union or the workers they have brought along, however most resumes I get and it's averaging 35-40 a week have no usable skills compared to guys I can hire from open shops. This could GE an Alberta problem brought on by the boom-bust economy but it's a definite disadvantage in this region and the reason I'm very carefully about hiring union people.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

347sparky said:


> *347sparky said*
> The union does not cut wages, *there would have to be* an agreement between contractors and members known as a contract.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Happens on occasion, concessions are made to secure work


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> That statement shows a total lack of understanding economics, business and how the free market works. Several members here that live in NJ and are working.


Unfortunately I understand economics all too well.

For example, how much would you have to cut wages to find more work? If your workers were to get paid, say a dollar less an hour, would you get more work? $2? Where is that tipping point? Do you have work in your area because your rate is lower than NJ or because you have work in your area?

In NJ, in order to bring union scale down to non union scale is about a 40% pay cut ( unknown how much in benefits ). There is a large amount of unemployment along all the trades, union and non union in NJ. Dumping wages on union workers would just glut the market, causing wages to drop for everyone. Short term and long term, that is just bad for us.

And it would not bring more work. No one will suddenly build a new mall just because one small aspect of the costs of that mall drop. No new schools will suddenly pop up. Perhaps some projects become more feasible but with all the money being NOT LENT out the cost of labor is pretty much besides the point.

The recession just happened to hit the NJ IBEW locals hard this time around. Cancelling major projects like the tunnel and having multiple large hospital and retail projects held up due to lawsuits, tied with a removal of the green funds from the upper 11 counties put a damper on our economy. We normally run close to full employment and bring in tons of travelers, so this is very odd for us.

Certainly some folks are working, but not all. Many of gone traveling to where the work is ( upstate NY for example ), and some, like myself have gone off to work other trades after unemployment has run out and or boredom has set in.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Unfortunately I understand economics all too well.
> 
> For example, how much would you have to cut wages to find more work? If your workers were to get paid, say a dollar less an hour, would you get more work? $2? Where is that tipping point? Do you have work in your area because your rate is lower than NJ or because you have work in your area?


I have posted many times that I am very fortunate to be in a strong market, strong with data, medical research and government. The tipping point is when you can compete with open shops for they work they have.



> In NJ, in order to bring union scale down to non union scale is about a 40% pay cut ( unknown how much in benefits ). There is a large amount of unemployment along all the trades, union and non union in NJ. Dumping wages on union workers would just glut the market, causing wages to drop for everyone. Short term and long term, that is just bad for us.


So you would rather draw unemployment?

And it would not bring more work. No one will suddenly build a new mall just because one small aspect of the costs of that mall drop. No new schools will suddenly pop up. Perhaps some projects become more feasible but with all the money being NOT LENT out the cost of labor is pretty much besides the point.



> The recession just happened to hit the NJ IBEW locals hard this time around. Cancelling major projects like the tunnel and having multiple large hospital and retail projects held up due to lawsuits, tied with a removal of the green funds from the upper 11 counties put a damper on our economy. We normally run close to full employment and bring in tons of travelers, so this is very odd for us.
> 
> Certainly some folks are working, but not all. Many of gone traveling to where the work is ( upstate NY for example ), and some, like myself have gone off to work other trades after unemployment has run out and or boredom has set in.


But the IBEW is suffering nation wide (with a few exceptions) cutting wages (and contractors using this cut) could be beneficial. Several locals (ours included) asked for large pay raises last contract at the start of a major economic downturn. I found this to be beyond stupid.

Around here there is only one electrical contractor doing true residential service work. Yet the residential hourly is as high as my commercial testing rate. Many union members ("A" JWs) think residential is beneath them. Seems to me Some work is better than no work.


I realize taking a cut in pay is counter intuitive, based on years of working for better pay and benefits but it MIGHT be an approach to try, MOST union members would not even consider it. At this point the IBEW seems to be losing more market share, if the available work is sucked up by open shops, you/we/ the IBEW may never regain this lost work.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> My employees made (JWs) $90,000-$125,000 last years so maybe they are part of the disappearing middle class as they rise to the 10%??


How much an hour?


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## Naylor649 (Aug 8, 2012)

I have worked both. Now i currently am a IBEW Wireman and it was the best decision i have made. Now to go onto the 90,000+ a year from a open shop. WOW that's awesome but how is there all around work package and do you pick up there health and welfare or is that out of there own pocket and so on?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Naylor649 said:


> I have worked both. Now i currently am a IBEW Wireman and it was the best decision i have made. Now to go onto the 90,000+ a year from a open shop. WOW that's awesome but how is there all around work package and do you pick up there health and welfare or is that out of there own pocket and so on?


 
I AM A UNION CONTRACTOR

Hourly $39.75 (this just went up but unsure of increase) plus about 15.00 in benefits. My "A" men typically make 1.50 and up over scale (above the 39.75), plus vacations (1-3 weeks depending on how long they have been here) and holidays, sick leave depending on who and what, substantial bonuses at Christmas.


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

brian john said:


> I AM A UNION CONTRACTOR
> 
> Hourly $39.75 (this just went up but unsure of increase) plus about 15.00 in benefits. My "A" men typically make 1.50 and up over scale (above the 39.75), plus vacations (1-3 weeks depending on how long they have been here) and holidays, sick leave depending on who and what, substantial bonuses at Christmas.


You're in 26's jurisdiction Brian? Didn't know they had gotten up that high in the check.


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## Potential11 (Nov 14, 2011)

*Go Union!*



statik1991 said:


> I am an apprentice and am thinking about joining the union is it worth joining?


Yes, Go Union! Steady work for apprentices. Pay upgrades about every six months until you earn your state license, continued education after if you like, excellent medical benefits, great working conditions, great pensions. :thumbsup:


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## sae (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello all, just signed up, so this will be my first post. I've been reading the forum for quite some time though. I'm currently a first year IBEW apprentice with about a year of open shop experience in an unrelated trade, prior to this. I have family in the UA, and other unions, so I've seen some of the ups and downs, over my years.

Now that the introduction is over, if you're able to get into a local that has work for apprentices, by all means do it! If you do get into an apprenticeship with steady work, you will have an opportunity that open shop simply cannot provide. In saying this, I mean that you will be able to work in many, many environments, on jobs large and small, industrial and commercial, depending on area. While yes, there are open shop equivalents to all of the above, you will most likely have to work at several shops to experience the various fields, to the same degree. Most importantly though, in MOST, and I repeat MOST but NOT ALL open shops, the goal is not a well rounded electrician after 5 years, but in many cases a fast "pipe bender" or "wire puller" in 2 months. Let's be honest, a lot of what we do is not rocket science, as with many trades, being a rocket at one specific task but lacking knowledge or the ability to do anything else is NOT going to keep you employed, because you are paid a premium as a journeyman, and even as an apprentice, thus you should be able to learn and do quickly. 
Also, don't go into school trying to be Joe Average of the class, happy with 76%. That won't do you any good other than sitting you on the bench immediately after topping out. As an IBEW apprentice, you're paid VERY well, compared to your counterparts, as well as any college student. Your job is to LEARN and DO. That is what will employee you after topping out. You will hear guys say, "aww **** school, that does you no good, don't need any of that, forget doing homework, go grab my tools on the ninth floor and carry this bundle of 1 inch up with you." Yes, its your job to make work smoother, by doing laborious tasks, but you're also there to learn at the contractors expense. So grab his whole bag and pat 'em on the back and get to work, he will figure it out or get laid off soon enough. Remember, if you come in as a greenie to construction, you're useless for the most part, and your package is still getting paid into, $10-25/hr. That is a lot of money for knowing nothing. So the sooner you learn, the sooner you show that you're a valuable asset to the contractor, the better off you are. (That said, don't be the prick supplying power tools and driving shop tools in the back seat of your car!) There's a balance, make everyone happy, don't make enemies with anyone, but don't become buddy buddy with the guys that are always sent home first, there's a reason why they are. 

Anyway, this is getting way too long, I'm sorry for the long post, but bottom line--

Go IBEW for a career with limitless potential, given the effort. Work hard, study hard, be better than the next guy, hang with the right guys at the job, do the work others won't. Anyone that b****** about trenching while getting paid $65/hr into their package is a clown, work is work, remember that. If things do pick up, people tend to say "oh I don't wanna do that, that's helper/laborer/apprentice work" And when work is slow they wonder why they don't get the work, do not give up your work to anyone. Too many lazy union guys do that, and it's an embarrassment to the hard working men of our trade and union, as well as other trades and unions. The IBEW will have better days, though smaller size, when people realize what they're given and take advantage of it. You can't get the same skill set elsewhere, you just can't, not with the associated pay and benefits.


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## sae (Aug 17, 2012)

I will also offer the flip side though, when I worked prior to joining in as an apprentice, I was on my way to a 4 year apprenticeship with a one man shop. The pay was not great, the benefits were nonexistent, though I did bargain for gas mileage reimbursement and more stable hours, as well as overtime pay. I would've had a van as well, in a year. Boss man knew he was getting rich off of me but said I could be doing the same in 4 years and taught me anything I wanted to know, even how he bid and priced. An honest small shop is a better option for some, sacrifice for a few years and write your own check in 5 years. That works more for residential and small jobs though, depending on interests.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

brian john said:


> So if your local and members had any common sense they would be cutting wages, at least temporally.


 Loacal #5 here has a different rate for power plant maintenance shut down work and mill work. Becoming further between jobs. Coal plants a dying breed.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

brian john said:


> My employees made (JWs) $90,000-$125,000 last years so maybe they are part of the disappearing middle class as they rise to the 10%??


I wonder how many one man, one van shops pull this kind of jack while still being their own boss? I doubt it's many. Maybe Tony does, but he is the exception.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)




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## Bob_B (Aug 2, 2012)

I am so glad to be a part of this forum. I also had questions about whether to join a union. This thread has given me exactly what I needed. Multiple opinions, biased and unbiased. Every person eventually makes his own decision in the end. I like to to try to see all sides from all angles before I make mine. Evaluating the info given, taking whats valuable and discarding what is not. Thank you all for all of your opinions. One opinion is not better than another unless u have already chosen a side.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I wonder how many one man, one van shops pull this kind of jack while still being their own boss? I doubt it's many. Maybe Tony does, but he is the exception.


John;

That is a good question, the few speciality one man shops I know do fairly well but their rates are much higher that the typical EC Charge and they sell control packages or gear upgrades and they are set. 

I also know (it seems) that many one man shops prefer being a one man and as long as they make a living they are happy. Being content in what you do is often as important as what you bring home in your wallet, as long as you live within your means.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I think your best bet is definitely to join the IBEW. I'm a third generation electrician...my father had his own shop, and I had my own shop for awhile as well. I find it interesting how many guys call their training, prior to joining the union, an apprenticeship. The US Dept of Labor clearly defines what is an what isn't an Apprenticeship. The IBEW provides one of the best and thorough Apprentice Training Programs in the world. England, Poland and not to mention Canada's electrical apprenticeships are based on the IBEW's model. Within the organization you literally have limitless potential to grow. In NYC we have 30,000 Local 3 members of which almost 14,000 are Inside Wiremen. While we suffered almost 40% unemployment two years ago, things are starting to looking up. Each local offers training well beyond that which is currently available privately...everything from accredited college courses, to Lockout Tagout,Confined Space, OSHA 10 and 30. When I became an instructor here and started going to and teaching at the National Training Institute in Ann Arbor with the rest of the NJATC Instructors from around the country I was amazed at the amount of continuing education available to those even in the smallest locals. Bottom line...the choice is yours, but if you have the opportunity to join the IBEW, it IS the Right Choice. Just remember...it's a Brotherhood...not a Neighborhood.

Good luck!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon;

We often perform testing work for union contractors and the guys that complain how we are stealing their work, they do the hard stuff and we steal the gravy.

I ask them how many take the classes offered at the hall. UM NONE, once they receive their "A" card they are done at the hall. Well then stick with construction but don't complain to me.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Union or non union, fine with me.

This isn't IBEW here where I work, but there used to be 4 unions here, then 3, then just 2, now it's 1 union, not enough membership left for the other unions to be effective. Now the members are under one union. Every contract negotiation the members lose something that they had before the negotiations started.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> icefalkon;
> 
> We often perform testing work for union contractors and the guys that complain how we are stealing their work, they do the hard stuff and we steal the gravy.
> 
> I ask them how many take the classes offered at the hall. UM NONE, once they receive their "A" card they are done at the hall. Well then stick with construction but don't complain to me.


Know what Brian...we had that problem a few years ago with a lot of the membership complaining about work going to the uninitiated. One of our biggest responses was exactly what you asked...how many of you guys have taken the classes available to you? When I was running work, I was known as one of the instructors...and a code guy...so I would always push taking whatever courses were available. We have a vast number of classes available here in LU#3 to members...and with so many unemployed...it became a mission to get as many as possible down to the hall to take classes. If you don't keep up your skills...don't complain that you...A. can't keep a job...or B. see our work going to the uninitiated! This isn't the 70's anymore...there are quite a few damn good electrical contractors that are not signatory to the IBEW. They are our competition and cannot be ignored. We have to be at the top of our game to maintain market share...because some of the biggest General Contractors are now entertaining the idea of using non union labor.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In DC union or open shop means little to GC's or the customer, it is all about who has the best price. Where the union does have an edge up is most of the larger contractors are union, so they can handle the larger more detailed jobs like data centers, hospitals, large government projects, metro and medical research facilities.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I know a lot of the guys in DC...Local 26...Instructors I mean. You're correct Brian, where the Organization has an advantage is primarily in numbers these days. If a shop manages to score a deck job, the union can provide him with the manpower to handle it. Everyone is basically trained the same way and just like anywhere else...you have gems and you have stones...Part of the issue we as a whole are coming to grips with is the fact that there are non union electricians with just as much skill as an A Journeyman. That's a big pill for many to swallow, but it's the truth. Primarily because many of these uninitiated people were TRAINED by A Journeymen when they were out of work. Hence the IO has established the CWCE or whatever it's called to competitively compete with non union contractors. NYC is exempt from that new classification because we have had an M Division to combat the wages of non union since the late 60's. There are more non union shops around now than ever before, so many that the larger markets are becoming saturated with EC's. Whereas 10yrs ago, the bidders on the work the contractor I work for does...they ALL knew each other...Nowadays...there's 20-30 shops bidding. Note...the shop I work for only does Core and Shell work...20 stories and above...tens of millions of dollars and above. There used to be only 5 or so shops that could handle that work...but now...we are bidding against non union shops for this. There is good and bad to every side...union and non union...working for someone...working for yourself...it's up to the individual to decide what's best for him.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> I find it interesting how many guys call their training, prior to joining the union, an apprenticeship. The US Dept of Labor clearly defines what is an what isn't an Apprenticeship.


Can you elaborate? 



icefalkon said:


> Each local offers training well beyond that which is currently available privately...everything from accredited college courses, to Lockout Tagout,Confined Space, OSHA 10 and 30.


I am currently in an "open" apprenticeship program (year 2) and I've had all of those offered to me. Maybe you're referring to just John Q. Citizen.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I never served an apprentice, I worked as a helper, got a license, then a few more. I'll stand toe to toe with any open shop or union man going. 

Not much I have not done in this trade, always willing to learn and improve myself.

I think 50% of the apprentice hype is overblown, while it is good to go through the apprenticeship, I know plenty of men that did not and they will swamp many a man that served an apprenticeship.

And I know I will be called out as a union hater again, but half the hype is just that hype. Apprenticeship, is superior, we gave our sweat and blood for you, ETC…….. We just ain't all that much better and if we were would we be losing market share?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

No point in touting how great your training is if you're not willing to share it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> I think 50% of the apprentice hype is overblown, while it is good to go through the apprenticeship, I know plenty of men that did not and they will swamp many a man that served an apprenticeship.


I know many of the folks who have gone through a proper apprenticeship that will swamp your typical non union worker.

Whether either statement is true or not is entirely subjective and ludicrous. 

While I am sure you feel confident in your opinions but your non union hype is just that. Hype. NO non union program has the training, testing and certifications that the ibew has. None.

Your business, your livelyhood is dependent upon that training and those workers, yet you spend your time denigrating them. You bleat about how open shops are superior at the same time you enjoy all the benefits of being a union shop.

I'm glad you are so positive in your views, but you truly come across as an rabid anti-union troll, full of misguided wisdom. 

You are insulting and rude, which is your right, and ignorant, which is your privilege, but you ought to at least be honest. If not to the world at large, at least to yourself.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I know many of the folks who have gone through a proper apprenticeship that will swamp your typical non union worker.
> 
> Whether either statement is true or not is entirely subjective and ludicrous.
> 
> While I am sure you feel confident in your opinions but your non union hype is just that. Hype. NO non union program has the training, testing and certifications that the ibew has. None.


keep blowing smoke up your tushie and we will continue to lose market share. Narrow minded views of the trades is leading the IBEW into smaller market shares.



> Your business, your livelyhood is dependent upon that training and those workers, yet you spend your time denigrating them. You bleat about how open shops are superior at the same time you enjoy all the benefits of being a union shop.


I am not denigrating them I trained them. My men that do specialty work were hired by me and trained by me.

I never said open shops are superior I said we are not as great as some think. 87% of the electrical work completed in this country is done by open shops. How is being so superior improving on that fact? Union attitude is a major component of the loss of market share. 



> I'm glad you are so positive in your views, but you truly come across as an rabid anti-union troll, full of misguided wisdom.
> 
> You are insulting and rude, which is your right, and ignorant, which is your privilege, but you ought to at least be honest. If not to the world at large, at least to yourself.


I try to be honest and if you cannot realize we are not that much superior and even if we are superior it ain't helping the cause.

Keep making the mistakes of the past and we'll have a 3% market share.

Being union is not going to mean crap if there is no work. 

On another note we only have 300 men on the bench, which is about average for bench sitters. DC knows how to do it.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Now now boys...lol...

What both of you guys say has true merit. I mean that. One of my most memorable mentors is this guy John M....he was without a doubt the best electrician I ever worked with. Knowledgeable, professional, open to learning and teaching others...and completely non union. When he got into LU3...organized...he was given the standard test...which he blew away...then he asked for the full blown A Test. This has Theory, Code, Practical Drawings, a 400A service from memory...including CT cabinet, and wires/connections for the meter, and a start/stop/jog. He didn't have fancy colored pencils, he didn't cheat...he did it with a pack of Marlboro Lights as a f*cking ruler. I know...I was there as a proctor. He finished the test in about 30 minutes...the average is about an hour, the whole test is 4hrs....

When he went to turn in his test...a "brother" told him...and I heard it...

"sit down scab...you can't be done yet"...I walked over, told my "brother" quietly...to go **** himself...and brought John up to the table to turn his test in. The Examining Board Member at the time looked at me, looked at John...and said... "yeah..?"...I nodded and shook his hand. 

Two days later I got a call...(at home...there were no cell phones then)...

This "scab" scored a perfect mark on the test. A feat normally unheard of. 

This guy wasn't bitter, wasn't turned "off" by the whole thing...he just kept doing what he does...he's that kind of guy. He's retired now, and he's still a mentor to me. 

There are guys who are phenomenal who have gone through "The Program"...and there are pieces of sh*t...

There are uninitiated who are Class A Workers...and there are uninitiated who are an embarrassment to us all. 

Everyone of us who went through an "apprenticeship" has things they remember fondly...and things they remember as ...why the HELL am I learning this...I'll never use it in the field. Ha! I sucked at Algebra in HS...didn't get "it" until my RAISE depended on it in First Year...Now I teach Code, EVITP, and Load Calculations! LOL Go figure...

Now onto the other things...I think all locals are suffering from a loss of market share. It's a fact of life. Partially our own doing as well. Here in NYC we have less than 10% of the outer borough work and in Manhattan we have 90% of the work of high rise construction and big commercial work.

There are problems where larger General Contractors are wanting Public Labor Agreements for us to work at a lower rate, for a 40hr week now...whereas this was primarily Federal and State Work agreements.

How do we recapture lost market share...? There are tons of views...and mine often conflict with others...

What I think we should do is become better electricians, more professional, and more productive in general. Previously...and this don't matter where you're from...I worked all over the United States...previously...WE...the Royal WE...as in all of us in general...just worked our tickets...and basically had to be better than the other guys in the crew to become "basic"...or part of a contractors Basic Work Force.

Now...it's different...we aren't competing with each other anymore for work...Union Contractors are competing for the SAME WORK...against their comparative competition...AS WELL AS non union contractors with shops of 100 men or more! This has never happened before in such a magnitude! Not just here in NYC, but all over! 

OK I've rambled on enough for one night! You guys shake hands dammit! 



Goodnight!


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

I'd like to make a motion, we move on


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

ohiosparky99 said:


> I'd like to make a motion, we move on


Here here!


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