# 2 NEW codes for 2011 NEC



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What book is that from?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> What book is that from?


Looks like a Holt book.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

B4T said:


> What book is that from?


If I remember correctly they were published in a recent EC&M.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> What book is that from?


Not the '11 NEC HB.:no:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's the link to the article with the mh drawings.

http://ecmweb.com/nec/2011-nec-changes-20101101/


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Here's the link to the article without the mh drawings.
> 
> http://ecmweb.com/nec/2011-nec-changes-20101101/



They are there


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> They are there


Duh...
thanks I didn't see the "click here".


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Putting MC in concrete, listed or not, seems like a really bad idea.. :no:

You could just as easily use PVC like they have been for years

They made a blunder with this one IMO..


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Putting MC in concrete, listed or not, seems like a really bad idea.. :no:
> 
> You could just as easily use PVC like they have been for years
> 
> They made a blunder with this one IMO..


Its not a blunder, its just a design issue. Maybe one day you will find a need to do that, so why should the code limit it if it is decided by them that the method is safe and sturdy enough to use in concrete? 

Yea, I would not build it into one of my designs pretty much 100% of the time.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not sure why submerging MC in concrete would be worse than PVC.

Enlighten me.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Duh...
> thanks I didn't see the "click here".


 Thats a good link to save...:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm not sure why submerging MC in concrete would be worse than PVC.
> 
> Enlighten me.


One is fixable the other is not.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Its not a blunder, its just a design issue. Maybe one day you will find a need to do that, so why should the code limit it if it is decided by them that the method is safe and sturdy enough to use in concrete?
> 
> Yea, I would not build it into one of my designs pretty much 100% of the time.


Concrete guys beat the hell out of conduits when doing their work.. we have all seen this..

How do you make a repair is someone drives a lift over the coil laying on the floor..

Say the wall gets moved and now the wire is in the wrong location..

There is a design change and another circuit needs to be added at the location.. you are screwed


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm not sure why submerging MC in concrete would be worse than PVC.
> 
> Enlighten me.


I bet you would have to speacal order the stuff I don't think that the reg stuff is rated for that..


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> One is fixable the other is not.


Do you mean one has accessible conductors the other does not?

Because broken pvc embedded in concrete is not exactly fixable.

(without tearing up the concrete.)


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

B4T said:


> ..
> 
> There is a design change and another circuit needs to be added at the location.. you are screwed


You might just be making the argument that all wiring methods should be in a pipe.

:whistling2:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Concrete guys beat the hell out of conduits when doing their work.. we have all seen this..
> 
> Change Order Ka Ching!!!
> 
> ...


I'm not screwed, I love that kinda stuff. Change Order ! Ka Ching.....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> I bet you would have to speacal order the stuff I don't think that the reg stuff is rated for that..


Its stocked, we call it parking deck MC but it is just MC with a jacket on it like LFMC.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> You might just be making the argument that all wiring methods should be in a pipe.
> 
> :whistling2:


Anything coming through a concrete slab is..


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## ruthunter (Feb 18, 2011)

I would have a hard time installing mc in the ground over pvc but who knows the industry may make us go to it to be consistant with how others start bidding jobs. Definetly faster than installing pvc and then having to come back to pull wire..before you know it electricians will be wiring the whole jobs from start to finish in mc. Thats when the trade gets ruined IMO.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Do you mean one has accessible conductors the other does not?


Yes



> Because broken pvc embedded in concrete is not exactly fixable.


I have never seen a conduit fully encased in concrete break, I have seen plenty of cables give out.

That said I agree with Mike it is a design issue.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Anything coming through a concrete slab is..


And you think PVC coming out of a slab will not be damaged?

We stub rigid up and they get damaged.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

For a small job I don't think I have much of a problem with it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And you think PVC coming out of a slab will not be damaged?
> 
> We stub rigid up and they get damaged.


Sure it is.. my point is that a repair is available..

The MC repair in not unless you want to bury a box in concrete and keep it accessible


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> You might just be making the argument that all wiring methods should be in a pipe.
> 
> :whistling2:


I think any thing under ground should be in pipe..The last thing you want to do is dig up a parking lott before your warranty runs out.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Sure it is.. my point is that a repair is available..
> 
> The MC repair in not unless you want to bury a box in concrete and keep it accessible


Even if you don't just draw them a map......:laughing:



Note to the guy who has a problem with me continuing this joke, I wasn't even in on the original check for yourself. It has become fun though.....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Sure it is.. my point is that a repair is available..
> 
> The MC repair in not unless you want to bury a box in concrete and keep it accessible



And the point you are missing is that the NEC is not a design guide.


I personally dislike all direct bury methods but they should not be against the code.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Its stocked, we call it parking deck MC but it is just MC with a jacket on it like LFMC.


I did not Know they stocked it ,,but thats good to know..maybe i will get some parking deck work..:thumbup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm going to have to give you a for instance, even if it is a possible never or once in your career. 360 degrees bend between boxes or pull points.
The cables do not have this restriction. Remember in a trench, elevation changes also count for the bends if they require bending...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And the point you are missing is that the NEC is not a design guide.


But the NEC is allowing something that does change the design of a structure in a really big way..

Once they open the flood gate, there is no going backward when the problems start to surface..


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## ruthunter (Feb 18, 2011)

Looks like the NEC is creating alot more business for us in the future when someone wants additional circuits added.. cha ching.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> But the NEC is allowing something that does change the design of a structure in a really big way..
> 
> Once they open the flood gate, there is no going backward when the problems start to surface..


What do you mean?????????????

They have been allowing concealed cables for a century.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Even if you don't just draw them a map......:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Note to the guy who has a problem with me continuing this joke, I wasn't even in on the original check for yourself. It has become fun though.....


What we do best here at ET is beat a dead horse.. he always seems to come back to life.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What do you mean?????????????
> 
> They have been allowing concealed cables for a century.


Encased in concrete.. it has always been in conduit with the ability to change amount and size of conductors without damage to the structure..


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## desertbucks (Feb 19, 2011)

I have been in the electrical trade for 17 years and I have never used and kind of direct burial wires, I guess I am old school and still believe in conduits underground. My dad was a electrician for 35 years and said MC cable ruin the trade.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Encased in concrete.. it has always been in conduit with the ability to change amount and size of conductors without damage to the structure..


Ahh you have been able to encase UF cable in concrete for decades.

This is really hardly any change at all.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Ahh you have been able to encase UF cable in concrete for decades.
> 
> This is really hardly any change at all.


No code book handy, but I think you can bury uf, but not encase it in concrete... I admit it has been a while since I looked at rules so if I have stepped into a pile of BBQ , apology in advance.....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Ahh you have been able to encase UF cable in concrete for decades.
> 
> This is really hardly any change at all.


How many commercial buildings have you installed UF directly embedded in the concrete?? :blink:

IMO this is a BIG change and not a good one..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> Putting MC in concrete, listed or not, seems like a really bad idea.. :no:
> 
> You could just as easily use PVC like they have been for years
> 
> They made a blunder with this one IMO..


Just like the guy who had a fault in an MC slab job recently, it's a bad idea. Now if the MC was designed to have wires removed and repulled I'd say otherwise.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> No code book handy, but I think you can bury uf, but not encase it in concrete... I admit it has been a while since I looked at rules so if I have stepped into a pile of BBQ , apology in advance.....


No apology you are correct




> 340.12 Uses Not Permitted. Type UF cable shall not be
> used as follows:
> 
> (8) Embedded in poured cement, concrete, or aggregate,
> ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> How many commercial buildings have you installed UF directly embedded in the concrete?? :blink:


None.


How many times have you concealed NM in walls?





> IMO this is a BIG change and not a good one..


OK I give you are right.

Burying boxes = good

Encasing an armored cable in concrete = bad


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

How is the one about ceiling grid supports different from the 08'? THat's the way I have done it since 05' if I'm not mistaken. Maybe it's a local thing.


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## ruthunter (Feb 18, 2011)

blueheels2 said:


> How is the one about ceiling grid supports different from the 08'? THat's the way I have done it since 05' if I'm not mistaken. Maybe it's a local thing.


Have you been installing colored wires that are different from the grid guys color? Have you been tagging your grid wires separate if they arent colored? Thats the difference.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ruthunter said:


> Have you been installing colored wires that are different from the grid guys color? Have you been tagging your grid wires separate if they arent colored than the grid guys? Thats the difference.



You expect the 'grid guys' to know or even care?


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

ruthunter said:


> Have you been installing colored wires that are different from the grid guys color? Have you been tagging your grid wires separate if they arent colored? Thats the difference.



Yes I've been tagging, flagging or painting since 05'. Must be a local thing.


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## ruthunter (Feb 18, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You expect the 'grid guys' to know or even care?


 Most of the jobs ive done where i used grid wires i always shot up my own wires so to answer your question who cares what the grid guy thinks.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ruthunter said:


> Most of the jobs ive done where i used grid wires i always shot up my own wires so to answer your question who cares what the grid guy thinks.:laughing:



You will, once they use all your wires for their grid.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

B4T said:


> Putting MC in concrete, listed or not, seems like a really bad idea.. :no:
> 
> You could just as easily use PVC like they have been for years
> 
> They made a blunder with this one IMO..


Sounds wonderful for kitchen island outlets built on a slab here in CA, most use uf cable inside pvc.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Coated Wire*

We use this stuff all the time for carwash's and other underground stuff. 

http://www.southwire.com/commercial/jacketsExtendMCSavings.htm

It's a bit pricey but saves ton's of time and is code.

You sure this isn't what they meant?


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

ruthunter said:


> Have you been installing colored wires that are different from the grid guys color? Have you been tagging your grid wires separate if they arent colored? Thats the difference.



Yes, yes we do. Inspector won't pass you if he doesn't see orange (or whatever) wires in the ceiling. And we just went to '08 in January.


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## OaklandElec (Jan 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You will, once they use all your wires for their grid.



The grid is up by the time we shoot our wires. Why would they steal them? Now, spraying a couple of their wires...er, never done that....:whistling2:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> You will, once they use all your wires for their grid.



Or start back charging for damage to their ceiling.
Hang the conduit,pull some wires- lots of poop can happen.

Just sayin'.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

When we deal with new grids, typically the ceiling guy meets with us or the job superintendent, and we show him the reflected ceiling plan, and he will leave us two wires per light...

If anyone here says they have NEVER used a ceiling wire they shouldnt have to support a flex or MC, they are full of it.


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## desar (Feb 6, 2011)

Support on raceways and cable have always allowed the difference betwwen the 08 and the 11 is that in o8 you didn't have to identify your tie wire for the suuport of your raceway or cable in non fire rated drop ceilings, but in fire rated ceiling you had to tag or color code now in the 2011 you have to identify the tie wire regardless of fire rated or non fire rated.

The mc don't forget to use the listed connectors.You wouldn't be able to install it to an island because under a building it must be installed in a raceway 2008 change. The reason was in case the cable gets damaged you can pull out the damaged cable.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

desar said:


> .You wouldn't be able to install it to an island because under a building it must be installed in a raceway 2008 change. The reason was in case the cable gets damaged you can pull out the damaged cable.


What article are you citing here?


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## desar (Feb 6, 2011)

article 300.11 (A)(1)(2)


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## desar (Feb 6, 2011)

Sorry I forgot The article for the underground cable 300.5(c)


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

desar said:


> Sorry I forgot The article for the underground cable 300.5(c)


Yeah, you had confused me a bit. But I get the point you were making now.

300.5
(C) Underground Cables Under Buildings. Underground
cable installed under a building shall be in a raceway.


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## racerjim0 (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't believe the mc in concrete is a new thing. A 2 story building that I take care has it. Its a 1980's architect/cpa/bank buiding with, all glass exterior, open(exposed) 2nd floor ceiling and everything, other than lighting, on the second floor has mc going from the 3 surface mount 42 circuit panels directly into the second story slab to Hubbel floor boxes with one circuit per floor box. Fortunately, they have never done any remodeling and have had no issues with the work that I am aware of.

Not that I would have done it that way, but the architect owns the building and I'm pretty sure that it was built to specs.


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