# Ka-ching or Ka-Boom!?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, duh!









The horizontal run is 'arranged to drain'. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What kind of building is it and what is the first job going to be??


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I suspect water damage from melting ice, not from your average rain storms. What do you think?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> What kind of building is it and what is the first job going to be??


Remove a bunch of 4' lay in lights and all the other crap above the suspended ceiling. Install J Boxes where necessary. :thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Remove a bunch of 4' lay in lights and all the other crap above the suspended ceiling. Install J Boxes where necessary. :thumbup:


Sounds like a money pit for him and a home run for you *if *he has a clear forehead... :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Sounds like a money pit for him and a home run for you *if *he has a clear forehead... :laughing:


:laughing:


They might be though. I don't know yet. :laughing:


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

why are there two conduits for the service lateral? Parallel conductors? It looks like there is a break in the top conduit came apart from the 90.


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## Midnitel (Feb 21, 2009)

Where are meters? in second floor apartment?


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## Midnitel (Feb 21, 2009)

Guess where is meter socket? Meter and panel back to back.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

That is just AWESOME!:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I'm gonna be doing some work in this building in Pt Pleasant. The first thing I noticed was the Federal Pacific MLO panel. Then I took a look outside and fond this.


The six P's
piss poor planning leeds to piss poor piping


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Spoke to the owner of the building today. I explained to her in a worst case scenario that if the conduit wasn't repaired it could cause a fire. Do you agree? 

Also, I explained to her the DANGER of the existing Federal Pacific panels and she said she'd have her licensed electrician check it out. I guess she knows better than me huh.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> ...... she said she'd have her licensed electrician check it out. ..........


So why did she call _you_?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

elecpatsfan said:


> why are there two conduits for the service lateral? Parallel conductors? It looks like there is a break in the top conduit came apart from the 90.


Yes, that's exactly right. Why the conduits came detached at the 90's is still up for debate. Maybe a truck drove by and tugged on the POCO's end of the run.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> .......Maybe a truck drove by and tugged on the POCO's end of the run.


You would really have to deflect that pole a lot before you put that much tension on that part of the conduit run.

I'd say the joint was never glued.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480, I suspect this is galvanized conduit, original to the building. But I could be wrong. Her electrician is coming to look at it tomorrow. I'm doing some work for one of the tenants but the owner of the building has her own electrician.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> 480, I suspect this is galvanized conduit, original to the building. But I could be wrong. Her electrician is coming to look at it tomorrow. I'm doing some work for one of the tenants but the owner of the building has her own electrician.


I can't see any threads, so it looks like PVC to me. It would take a _hell_ of a lot of energy to pull GRC apart.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It looks like PVC to me too.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Here is another vote for PVC

~Matt


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> ........ I'm doing some work for one of the tenants but the owner of the building has her own electrician.


Uh, you're working for a _tenant_?  What kind of building is this?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

another vote for pvc


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Uh, you're working for a _tenant_?  What kind of building is this?


Gonna be an antique furniture store. 

www.tesshome.com


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Spoke to the owner of the building today. I explained to her in a worst case scenario that if the conduit wasn't repaired it could cause a fire. Do you agree?
> 
> Also, I explained to her the DANGER of the existing Federal Pacific panels and she said she'd have her licensed electrician check it out. I guess she knows better than me huh.


The conduit is out of the weather and under the soffit.. saying it could cause a fire might be a stretch.. IMO.

The FPE is a time bomb waiting for a match.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Gonna be an antique furniture store.
> 
> www.tesshome.com



The pix made me think they were apartments.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> The conduit is out of the weather and under the soffit.. saying it could cause a fire might be a stretch.. IMO.
> 
> The FPE is a time bomb waiting for a match.


A heavy rain storm water could get in the pipe and run right into the panel


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> A heavy rain storm water could get in the pipe and run right into the panel


I would bet to say that any kind of water could go in there and into the panel.

~Matt


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Stuff it full of monkey snot to keep the water out. $130 service call +$7 bag of snot, cash-no reciept.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Or fix it right and charge more money.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

PVC + no expansion joints = popped fittings. IMO  

Tom

Nice touch with the wallpaper.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Hey, I got a great customer while wiring a Deli for a tenant, the landlords electrician said the existing service was fine......It was a 60 yr old 150 amp main disconnect w/ individual fuse boxes , every fuse a 30 amp of course. I ended up upgrading them to 400 amps and relocating the tenants panels outside from the delis basement. Then came a Generac at the Landlords office, Now another two stores and a couple apts getting rewired as they get remodeled.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I'll get a better look tomorrow.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)




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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Ron... was water getting into the panel??


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Working in my hood? :laughing: That service looks like crap, tell the tenant to refer you to the owner :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


>



PVC... you can see the bell ends on the left. Look like only ½" of pipe got glued.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Ron... was water getting into the panel??


I have not seen the main service equipment but I have heard that the FP panel is being upgraded (by others, not me), and the broken conduit repaired (by others, not me). So basically I find the work and some other EC gets the work.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I have not seen the main service equipment but I have heard that the FP panel is being upgraded (by others, not me), and the broken conduit repaired (by others, not me). So basically I find the work and some other EC gets the work.


Talk to B4T..... maybe he can get the government to 'change things' for your own good. :laughing:


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I have not seen the main service equipment but I have heard that the FP panel is being upgraded (by others, not me), and the broken conduit repaired (by others, not me). So basically I find the work and some other EC gets the work.


Send a Finders Fee invioce!! :laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> I have not seen the main service equipment but I have heard that the FP panel is being upgraded (by others, not me), and the broken conduit repaired (by others, not me). So basically I find the work and some other EC gets the work.


Play dirty pool, beat the other guys estimate by 5 or 10%. They'd do it to you.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Run!!!!!!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

They still haven't fixed the SEC conduit but they did manage to install a new Cutler Hammer CH mlo panel.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> They still haven't fixed the SEC conduit but they did manage to install a new Cutler Hammer CH mlo panel.



I don't get MLO panels.. just seems like a waste of money not to have a main breaker.. :no:

I know it is code, but is sucks!!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't get MLO panels.. just seems like a waste of money not to have a main breaker.. :no:
> 
> I know it is code, but is sucks!!




It's minor, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. 

What would be the reason to have a main breaker in a "sub" panel?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> It's minor, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
> 
> What would be the reason to have a main breaker in a "sub" panel?


Say it is a sandwich shop and one of the slicers starts to spark and catches fire.

The employee runs to the circuit breaker box.. looks for a main that is not there.

The "main" is outside where the meters are.. now the employee has to turn off 40-60 circuit breakers to kill the power.

I never sell a MLO panel.. it is just how I do business and I already know most here do not agree with me..  

IMO it is a stupid code loop hole not to require a MAIN in every panel since they are soo much into safety with all the code changes in the past few code cycles.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Say it is a sandwich shop and one of the slicers starts to spark and catches fire.
> 
> The employee runs to the circuit breaker box.............



Most smart people will just unplug the slicer. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Most smart people will just unplug the slicer. :whistling2:


We are talking about people who slice cold cuts and can't cut the the hero in the middle..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> We are talking about people who slice cold cuts and can't cut the the hero in the middle..



If you're talking about a restaurant, they'd never get to the panel in the first place.... it's buried back there in the mechanical room behind all those boxes, old displays, three mops and half a dozen brooms, the weed whacker, nineteen Lozier shelves, and the box of new mouse traps. And that's assuming the person has the wherewithall to know where the panel even is!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't get MLO panels.. just seems like a waste of money not to have a main breaker.. :no:
> 
> I know it is code, but is sucks!!


For smaller mass produced panels and breakers I can see your view.

Start getting into larger panels or 480 volt panels adding main breakers can get pretty expensive.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Say it is a sandwich shop and one of the slicers starts to spark and catches fire.
> 
> The employee runs to the circuit breaker box.. looks for a main that is not there.


I think that your average food service employee is just going to run away screaming _fire_ and then text/twitter/facebook or whateverthehell about their near death experience to their friends/online followers :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> For smaller mass produced panels and breakers I can see your view.
> 
> Start getting into larger panels or 480 volt panels adding main breakers can get pretty expensive.


I can see your point with larger commercial panels, but like everything else.. the cost is just another part of the job that is applied equally across the board.. 

I just put (8) AFCI breakers in a new house I did.. that was $360.00 I didn't need to spend (6) years ago..

Add in the TR devices and the price is closer to $450.00.

How much could a 200A (3) phase main breaker panel cost over a MLO??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> How much could a 200A (3) phase main breaker panel cost over a MLO??


$100s easily, $1000s possible.


Besides, breakers are not meant to be 'emergency manual disconnects' that is why they may be behind a looked door or three, up on another floor etc. 

The idea that a sub shop employee would care so much and think so clearly to know to run to a panel and shut off the one marked main is beyond my ability to _understand._ :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> $100s easily, $1000s possible.
> 
> 
> *Besides, breakers are not meant to be 'emergency manual disconnects' that is why they may be behind a looked door or three, up on another floor etc. *The idea that a sub shop employee would care so much and think so clearly to know to run to a panel and shut off the one marked main is beyond my ability to _understand._ :laughing:


That makes no sense at all since it is the only way to shut down the hazard.. :blink:

Say if there is an employee connected to the slicer because of busted ground and wet floor???

I was once laying in wet sand under a beach house running some wires when my hand came in contact with a live splice missing a wire nut.

It locked up the muscles in my arm where I could not move it..

Scared the hell out of me.. I used my other hand to slap my arm away from the splice.. no box.. 

Only other option was to start yelling to KILL THE POWER....


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> That makes no sense at all since it is the only way to shut down the hazard.. :blink:
> 
> Say if there is an employee connected to the slicer because of busted ground and wet floor???
> 
> ...


Dude... just unplug the slicer, ya know from the outlet thingamabob. :laughing:

And since you work solo, would there have been anyone around to even shut off a breaker of any type?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> That makes no sense at all since it is the only way to shut down the hazard.. :blink:


But you do understand the truth that branch circuit or feeder breakers are often located behind locked doors or that employees may have no clue where the panel is?

In the case of Deli slicer it is a motor operated appliance and it would not be in a dwelling unit so it either plugs in at the unit or it has a disconnecting means within sight of it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> ya know from the outlet thingamabob.


:laughing:

Maybe I should have gone with Thingamabob instead of BBQ. :jester:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Maybe I should have gone with Thingamabob instead of BBQ. :jester:


:lol: :lol:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> But you do understand the truth that branch circuit or feeder breakers are often located behind locked doors or that employees may have no clue where the panel is?
> 
> In the case of Deli slicer it is a motor operated appliance and it would not be in a dwelling unit so it either plugs in at the unit or it has a disconnecting means within sight of it.


Yes.. lots of times I have had to find the maintenance man with the keys to open the lock..

Question.. anything in the code about having "keys" on site to unlock OCP devices in case of emergency??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> That makes no sense at all since it is the only way to shut down the hazard.. :blink:
> 
> Say if there is an employee connected to the slicer because of busted ground and wet floor???
> 
> ...


Damn, you're paranoid.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> Question.. anything in the code about having "keys" on site to unlock OCP devices in case of emergency??


Yeah kind of but that can be avoid where there is someone to call. 


> *240.24(B) Occupancy.* Each occupant shall have ready access to
> all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying
> that occupancy, unless otherwise permitted in 240.24(B)(1)
> and (B)(2).
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Dude... just unplug the slicer, ya know from the outlet thingamabob. :laughing:
> 
> And since you work solo, would there have been anyone around to even shut off a breaker of any type?


*Dude.. *we are talking about teenagers who work making sandwiches.. do you really think they would grab the cord to unplug it it it was smoking and arcing?? :blink:

The HO was upstairs, if not.. I could only hope for some good luck.. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Damn, you're paranoid.


we are talking about "electrical safety" how is that being paranoid?? :blink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> *Dude.. *we are talking about teenagers who work making sandwiches.. do you really think they would grab the cord to unplug it it it was smoking and arcing??


If we are talking about teenagers then post #50 is dead on. :yes: 

And I woulda done it when I was a teenager, but then again I was working as a electrical helper when everyone else was working at a sandwich shop. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> we are talking about "electrical safety" how is that being paranoid?? :blink:



What would happen if lightning struck the building?

Suppose a 13.2 kV line 50 miles away falls onto the 7.2kV line that feeds the restaurant?

Has the fire alarm's back-up battery been checked lately?

Are all the emergency & exits lights working?

How many lamps are burned out in the place?

Is the timer for the lot lights a standard T101? My God, it's 4 hours off because of that power outage last week!

Has anyone _actually tested_ all the GFCIs on a monthly basis?



I could go on and on.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I could go on and on.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


>



I want a plaid one with a main disconnect. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What would happen if lightning struck the building?
> 
> Suppose a 13.2 kV line 50 miles away falls onto the 7.2kV line that feeds the restaurant?
> 
> ...


I mention sparks and smoke coming out of a slicer receptacle.. TOOL comes up with a laundry list of "acts of GOD" that could happen.. :blink:

What about a jumbo jet engine falling from the sky.. you missed that one..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I want a plaid one with a main disconnect. :laughing:


Tough. Take what you can get.




:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> .........What about a jumbo jet engine falling from the sky.. you missed that one..


'Cause it ain't _electrical_.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> What about a jumbo jet engine falling from the sky.. you missed that one..


That's actually happened.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> What about a jumbo jet engine falling from the sky..



I always wear my hard hat.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> That makes no sense at all since it is the only way to shut down the hazard.. :blink:
> 
> Say if there is an employee connected to the slicer because of busted ground and wet floor???
> 
> ...


 A properly wired commercial kitchen has GFCI receptacles.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> A properly wired commercial kitchen has GFCI receptacles.



A properly wired kitchen (wired 10+ years ago) does not. :whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I've been GFCI commercial kitchen outlets(unless single dedicated) since 2000.


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