# Generator backfeed connection



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have had the exact same experience with two Honda brand generators. I never solved the problem. My work was technically correct. Please post what you find out. I assumed that it had to do with my neutral-ground bond at the service equipment.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

I have seen small generators with a "floating neutral" or "ungrounded neutral" this might explain your problem. Maybe???


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

After thinking about it maybe the generator's internal wiring is such that grounding the neutral (like you would normally do) is not the correct thing to do. The generator might not be suitable for connecting to a grounded neutral system. 

Sometimes you need to read the Spanish novel about the guy named "Manuel"[sic].:whistling2:


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

will keep you all posted. 
This kind of thing I really can't let go of.
This lady seems well off, not well off enough for a complete auto back-up! But I think she is going to call for service and follow through.
I'll post if we come to a conclusion.


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I have had the exact same experience with two Honda brand generators. I never solved the problem. My work was technically correct. Please post what you find out. I assumed that it had to do with my neutral-ground bond at the service equipment.


you know, that was my first impression, I moved the ground to the neutral bar first thing, not sure why. Same problem..........


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> you know, that was my first impression, I moved the ground to the neutral bar first thing, not sure why. Same problem..........


Eventually, your ground and netural is connected by the bond strap or bond screw in the service equipment.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

I think I was somewhat on the right track. Read this and see if it might be the problem.

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/99_d/johnson.htm


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the answer is to jump out the onboad GFI protection.
I do not see a solution.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

Look at section IV and V. It looks like this might be the problem.

Quote from section IV:

"The problems dealt primarily with obtaining proper sensing of ground-fault currents because of multiple neutral-to-ground connections. Under some conditions, the ground-fault sensors would fail to detect fault currents. Under other conditions, unbalanced loads would cause ground-fault sensors to trip breakers, even though a ground fault or short-circuit did not exist."


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

Ok, but I don't feel the urge to go through the home and find neutral to ground connections, or isolate the homeowners equipment or appliances that may be making the connection.

Have you seen many 5000watt generators with ground fault protection? I've been thinking of all I've come across from homeowners, I don't recall any until now.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

I know the panel that you used and have installed them and they worked fine. I think that some MFG's are putting GFI on the generators because users don't use GFI extension cords with the generators like they are supposed to. So the MFG's are maybe doing this because of libility issues. There has to be a work around for your problem, maybe Marc or somebody else has some ideas. I will keep looking to see what I can come up with.


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

Thanks John, I'll keep checking in.


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, It was a Honda generator like MD ran into in the past. Called Honda and they said there is a service bulletin distributed to dealers that instructs them how to remove the internal Neutral-ground bond.

I'm going to take it apart for the the customer and think it should be quite evident once I get inside.

good info for the future. That's why I love this forum guys.


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## faber307 (Jan 22, 2007)

There was a short jumper between the neutral and ground, not in the control panel, but in the end of the unit with the output posts. 
removed it and the the problem went away:thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Tab Faber said:


> There was a short jumper between the neutral and ground, not in the control panel, but in the end of the unit with the output posts.
> removed it and the the problem went away:thumbup:


Cool. Thanks for that update. That rings a bell now. Seems like Honda's are the only one's that seem to have that special issue. Could be wrong.


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## Electrical Steve (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow, I'm happy that I found this thread... this generator is driving me crazy!

It is a Honda EB5000 and I've experienced the exact same issue... the onboard-GFCI is tripping when hooked up to the Gen-Tran.

Does anyone have Honda Service Bulletin #20 or some sort of instructions on removing the jumper between neutral and ground? From Tab Faber's post it sounds like the jumper is in the end of the unit with the output posts. Do I need to unbolt the bolts that cover the end of the generator section? (anything more specific?)

Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide here --


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## Electrical Steve (Dec 24, 2007)

So check out what I found elsewhere:

"I had the same problem. When I called the supplier they told me to 
remove the bonding jumper in the generator. Take the black cover off the 
of the gen. and you`ll see an inch long white jumper from the ground to 
the neutral. Tighten the screws up and you`ll be back in business. The 
house panel and the gen. are both bonded and they fight each other. That 
makes the GFI trip."

Just the information that I was looking for. If anyone has the actual Honda Service Bulletin #20, I love to see that. Please reply if so --


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I did not read every post so this may have been resolved.

Not necessarily in order do the easiest ones first.

1. The on board GFCI is this on the main feeder to the panel?
2. Isolate the neutrals in the panel turn off all CB's meg the downstream neutrals (at 250 VDC) check for secondary grounds.
3. My understanding of this is the neutral is grounded in the panel and at the generator?
4. Remove the generator bond.
5. With all loads and the service on utility on measure current on the neutral ground bond do the same while connected to generator, if the service feed is in metallic conduit to the meter remember the bond connection in the meter will result in ground current.
6. Test the GFCI.
7. Is the GFCI required for this installation?

I'll think of a few more I always seem to after I post.

Take care be careful and chill in the New year..MERRY CHRISTMAS


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## ANDY (Dec 3, 2007)

*Standby Systems*

I can't help but notice that there's still a lot of portable genrators being sold and installed. You can buy a 7KW stanby and a 10 circuit ATS for $2200 average. Considering the amount of effort you have to put into a portable such as pull start, fule check, switching to generator mode not to mention what if your not home in the middle of the winter and no ones there to start your portable. Seems crazy to me. Also, old people mostly don't have the ability to drag that thing out. Auto type does a self start every week and goes through a series of tests, keeping it lubed and running smooth. Also, you can tie in a caller system if or when it may fail to allert you. Trouble shoot if under the typical 2 year contract you get payed through most generator companies for your time not to mention you can arrange a maintenance contract with the home owner. In New England last year we had 1/2 million people loose power and you can bet they a good percentage of them have stanbys.

~Andy :thumbsup:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

When hurricane Isabelle came through here a few years back ('03?) a lot of people went without power for up to a week. Not common around here. Stand-by generator sales/installs when through the roof for about a year, and we still do a fair number.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John I have been doing ATS service and generator maintenance for 28 years, whenever there is a power event where large number of people are without power, sales, service, maintenance of ATS's and generators increases for a short period than slacks off as people watch some other tragedy on Fox News.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> John I have been doing ATS service and generator maintenance for 28 years, whenever there is a power event where large number of people are without power, sales, service, maintenance of ATS's and generators increases for a short period than slacks off as people watch some other tragedy on Fox News.


It certainly isn't as popular now as it was that 1st year, but we are still selling/installing more than we did before Isabelle.


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