# SABC Install



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> After installing two kitchen countertop circuits would a third lighting & receptacle branch circuit installed in a dinning room be considered a SABC?


No and it would not be legal either. art. 210.52(B)(3). The dining room recep. either needs it's own 20 amp cir. or be connected to a sabc


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> No and it would not be legal either. art. 210.52(B)(3). The dining room recep. either needs it's own 20 amp cir. or be connected to a sabc


210.52(B)(3) is for the kitchen. I am of the opinion that once you meet the 2-circuit requirement for SABCs in the kitchen and dinning room, then any other circuit that is not on the countertop can be for any purpose, including lighting.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> 210.52(B)(3) is for the kitchen. I am of the opinion that once you meet the 2-circuit requirement for SABCs in the kitchen and dinning room, then any other circuit that is not on the countertop can be for any purpose, including lighting.



The articles states two or more.....


> (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
> Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
> Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.





> B) Small Appliances.
> (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

Assuming you’re on the 2008 NEC where you are, see 210.52, *-1, Exception and also 210-70[A]-1.**
I would say a general-purpose branch circuit would not be considered as the required SABC for the dinning room. 
I would also say that yes, it is allowed in addition to the required SABC, but only for switched receptacles in a dinning room. 
Seems the NEC is trying to prevent the use of the SABC for switched receptacles. *


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

> (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.



I do not read it as dis-allowing other circuits. It does say you can have a circuit for switched outlet purposes, but it does not say you can't have another non-SABC circuit either.

You are required to supply at least 2 SABCs that serve the countertop and dining room, pantry, etc. You are also required to install a small appliance branch circuit for the laundry. But it doesn't dis-allow another circuit there either. In my interpretation, once you have met the 2 SABC requirement, then another circuit isn't necessarily an SABC. If you have 2 SABCs then add a third circuit with lights and receptacles, then by definition that circuit is not an SABC.

The wording is ambiguous and open to interpretation. I think in the end it is the call of the AHJ.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I do not read it as dis-allowing other circuits.


I have to disagree wholeheartedly on this one. Let's look at it logically. Art. 210.52(B) is labeled Small Appliances therefore everything in this section pertains to the sabc.



> (B) Small Appliances.
> (1) Receptacle Outlets Served.* In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) *shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


Okay now let's look at 210.11(C)(1)


> C) Dwelling Units.
> (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, t*wo or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).*


This is saying that a sabc must be supplied for all outlets covered in 210.52(B). Then we go back to 210.52(B)(2) and it states


> (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.


I think that is pretty clear that no other outlets other than those mentioned in 210.52(B) are allowed on the SABC even if there are 10 SABC's. No lights allowed on these circuits


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> I think that is pretty clear that no other outlets other than those mentioned in 210.52(B) are allowed on the SABC even if there are 10 SABC's. No lights allowed on these circuits


Right. I'm not saying otherwise. No outlets other than those listed are allowed *on an SABC*. Once you have met your SABC requirements, you are done. You cannot put lights, or smoke detectors, or rainbird water controls on those circuits. An additional circuit is not forbidden. Point out where a *non-SABC* circuit is dis-allowed in the areas jointly served by SABCs.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Right. I'm not saying otherwise. No outlets other than those listed are allowed *on an SABC*. Once you have met your SABC requirements, you are done. You cannot put lights, or smoke detectors, or rainbird water controls on those circuits. An additional circuit is not forbidden. Point out where a *non-SABC* circuit is dis-allowed in the areas jointly served by SABCs.


I'm sorry I must havebeen misinterpreting your meaning. I agree that another circuit is allowed in those areas but they cannot be connected to those SABC's. The op's question was this


> After installing two kitchen countertop circuits would a third lighting & receptacle branch circuit installed in a dinning room be considered a SABC?


 Are you saying this is allowed? I am assuming the op means a circuit that connects the lights in the dining room with the recep. in the DR. I say absolutely not. 

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.. I thought you were saying this is allowed.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

The receptacles in the dining room required by 210.52(A) must be on the small appliance circuits.210.52(B)(1) There is nothing that restricts the # of SABCs to only 2. But, there is exception #1, which allows switched receptacles from a general lighting circuit.
I have often done houses with 4 or more SABCs feeding the receptacles in the kitchen and dining room.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> I'm sorry I must havebeen misinterpreting your meaning. I agree that another circuit is allowed in those areas but they cannot be connected to those SABC's. The op's question was this
> Are you saying this is allowed? I am assuming the op means a circuit that connects the lights in the dining room with the recep. in the DR. I say absolutely not.
> 
> Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.. I thought you were saying this is allowed.


I think we are on the same page now:thumbsup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Lets not forget the AFCI for the dinning room. (08)


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

It takes more time to read this debate 
,than to run another circuit.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> It takes more time to read this debate
> ,than to run another circuit.


 :laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

leland said:


> Lets not forget the AFCI for the dinning room. (08)


Hmm, interesting!

So, the way I read it, if the Dinning Room Receptacles are installed on the two kitchen countertop circuits, they, (the countertop circuits) also need AFCI protection, 210.12(B).


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> Hmm, interesting!
> 
> So, the way I read it, if the Dinning Room Receptacles are installed on the two kitchen countertop circuits, they, (the countertop circuits) also need AFCI protection, 210.12(B).


The c'top receps don't need it, but if you run the SABC to the dining room, they will ge AFCI'd when all is said and done.


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## sherman (Sep 29, 2008)

Roger123 said:


> After installing two kitchen countertop circuits would a third lighting & receptacle branch circuit installed in a dinning room be considered a SABC?


I dont think it would if you mixed lighting in there.:no:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

sherman said:


> I dont think it would if you mixed lighting in there.:no:


 
1) Nothing states that a dinning room has to be on the kitchen SABC
(only states that it can be).
2) Dinning rm. receptacles must be AFCI protected AND Be A SABC..
3) once all of the above are met you can add as many receptacles as you want (classifieng them as 'Lighting'). 210.70(A)(1) exception 1.

:thumbsup:


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## volty (Jan 14, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Point out where a *non-SABC* circuit is dis-allowed in the areas jointly served by SABCs.


210.52(B)(1). ". . . the two or more 20-ampere small appliance brance circuits required by 210.11(C) shall serve *all* wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(C) . . ."

Except switched or fridge.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

volty said:


> 210.52(B)(1). ". . . the two or more 20-ampere small appliance brance circuits required by 210.11(C) shall serve *all* wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(C) . . ."
> 
> Except switched or fridge.


You still haven't pointed out where a non-SABC is disallowed. Once you have met the requirements of the articles you point out, where does it say you can't add other circuits?


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## volty (Jan 14, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> You still haven't pointed out where a non-SABC is disallowed. Once you have met the requirements of the articles you point out, where does it say you can't add other circuits?


Well, it says that *ALL* the floor and wall receptacles in those rooms must be on SABC's. 
So you can't add other (15 amp) circuits. Except switched or fridge.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

volty said:


> Well, it says that *ALL* the floor and wall receptacles in those rooms must be on SABC's.
> So you can't add other (15 amp) circuits. Except switched or fridge.


No, it says an SABC must serve all outlets covered by 210.52(C). What about outlets not covered by 210.52(C)? What if I want to put a computer in my dining room and install a dedicated circuit for it and a switched light? Am I forbidden to do this because it must be an SABC? I don't think so.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

leland said:


> Lets not forget the AFCI for the dinning room. (08)


Not yet in pennsylvania.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> No, it says an SABC must serve all outlets covered by 210.52(C). What about outlets not covered by 210.52(C)? What if I want to put a computer in my dining room and install a dedicated circuit for it and a switched light? Am I forbidden to do this because it must be an SABC? I don't think so.


Just to clarify that as long as that computer outlet is on a switch and is not one of the outlets required for spacing in that room then I agree this may be fed from a circuit other then the SABC. Is that what you are saying?


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

leland said:


> Lets not forget the AFCI for the dinning room. (08)


Not in SC either ( they are 6 years behind )


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> Just to clarify that as long as that computer outlet is on a switch and is not one of the outlets required for spacing in that room then I agree this may be fed from a circuit other then the SABC. Is that what you are saying?


Close, but not exactly. I am not saying the receptacle is on a switch but there is a switched light as well as a receptacle. And the receptacle is not part of the required spacing, that's already covered by an SABC.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

electricista said:


> Just to clarify that as long as that computer outlet is on a switch and is not one of the outlets required for spacing in that room then I agree this may be fed from a circuit other then the SABC. Is that what you are saying?


 
210.70(A)(1) exception 1-

"In other than kitchens and bathrooms,ONE OR MORE receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets."

So Bring in that GP ckt and switch half of it,coverd,now bring in 3 more ckts. All Cool and the gang! :thumbup:

Providing you have met the required spacing with the AFCI/SABC receptacles.

(2002-2005, no AFCI)


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Close, but not exactly. I am not saying the receptacle is on a switch but there is a switched light as well as a receptacle. And the receptacle is not part of the required spacing, that's already covered by an SABC.


Then I disagree with this. Any recep on the wall except that which is switched and part of another circuit is considered a sabc.


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## volty (Jan 14, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> No, it says an SABC must serve all outlets covered by 210.52(C). What about outlets not covered by 210.52(C)? What if I want to put a computer in my dining room and install a dedicated circuit for it and a switched light? Am I forbidden to do this because it must be an SABC? I don't think so.


Well, it does say "covered by 210.52(C)", but it says "covered by 210.(A)" too, same sentence. I think they mean all when they say all, except switched and fridge.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

volty said:


> Well, it does say "covered by 210.52(C)", but it says "covered by 210.(A)" too, same sentence. I think they mean all when they say all, except switched and fridge.


210.52(C) covers countertops.
210.52(B)(1) Exception 1:

"In ADDITION TO the required......."


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> Then I disagree with this. Any recep on the wall except that which is switched and part of another circuit is considered a sabc.


It's all in the wording. Nowhere does it explicitly forbid it. Its says "shall be allowed", or some such, for a switched outlet, but it does not say "oh yeah, no other circuits can be present even if all the other requirements and spacing are met". This doesn't even make sense. Why would it be disallowed? What makes a dining room so special? Can I put a window unit A/C in with a dedicated circuit?

If I put in all my receptacles to the proper spacing on an SABC, then I've satisfied the requirements. Now, where does it say, explicitly, that I can't come back and put another non-SABC circuit between them? Not that anyone would want to, but as a theoretical exercise?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> It's all in the wording. Nowhere does it explicitly forbid it. Its says "shall be allowed", or some such, for a switched outlet, but it does not say "oh yeah, no other circuits can be present even if all the other requirements and spacing are met". This doesn't even make sense. Why would it be disallowed? What makes a dining room so special? Can I put a window unit A/C in with a dedicated circuit?
> 
> If I put in all my receptacles to the proper spacing on an SABC, then I've satisfied the requirements. Now, where does it say, explicitly, that I can't come back and put another non-SABC circuit between them? Not that anyone would want to, but as a theoretical exercise?





> 210.52 (B)(1) Small Appliances.
> (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, *the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)*, all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
> Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
> Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.


Now let's look at 210.11(C)(1)



> (C) Dwelling Units.
> (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided *for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)*.


I am sorry but I cannot see it any other way at this point. Perhaps I am not understanding. I agree you can have another recep. from another circuit in that room but it must be on a sabc. A single circuit for an a/c unit is fine if it meets the def. of sabc. A 15 amp gp circuit, imo, is not allowed unless it meets the except.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

"*210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)*, all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted."



--Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.---


210.70(A)(1) exception 1-

"In other than kitchens and bathrooms,ONE OR MORE receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets."

---


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> Now let's look at 210.11(C)(1)
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry but I cannot see it any other way at this point. Perhaps I am not understanding. I agree you can have another recep. from another circuit in that room but it must be on a sabc. A single circuit for an a/c unit is fine if it meets the def. of sabc. A 15 amp gp circuit, imo, is not allowed unless it meets the except.


You keep quoting the code as it applies to SPECIFIED receptacles. I am not disagreeing here. I am simply saying that the Code does not, at any point in any of the articles you posted, forbid unspecified receptacles circuits. 

In other words, there is no sentence that says "no other outlets are allowed in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, etc".


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> In other words, there is no sentence that says "no other outlets are allowed in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, etc".


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You are saying that as long as I have the required spacing on the kitchen counter, pantry etc I can install a 15 amp recept. circuit. I cannot buy that. How would a homeowner know the difference as the purpose of the sabc is to provide 20 amp protection for the loads of the kitchen, etc. 

With this same reasoning we could look at article 406.11 and say that just the required outlets in areas of 210.52 demand TR recep. Others would not???


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

electricista said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You are saying that as long as I have the required spacing on the kitchen counter, pantry etc I can install a 15 amp recept. circuit. I cannot buy that. How would a homeowner know the difference as the purpose of the sabc is to provide 20 amp protection for the loads of the kitchen, etc.
> 
> With this same reasoning we could look at article 206.11 and say that just the required outlets in areas of 210.52 demand TR recep. Others would not???


I don't know about TR receptacles, as I'm not required to install them currently. But, technically yes, as long as the receptacles were GFCI protected and the 20 A SABC requirement was met, you could install a 15 A circuit on the kitchen counter. How is the customer to know? I would ask how is the customer to know anything? Doesn't matter.

But, for what it's worth, I'm just picking nits at the wording of the Code. I am NOT saying that I would do this.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

electricista said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You are saying that as long as I have the required spacing on the kitchen counter, pantry etc I can install a 15 amp recept. circuit.---
> 
> Lets move along,We're in the Dinning rm. now.
> 
> ...


406.11-- (typo above)

Now a new issue. Yes THEY MUST be TR. AFCI,SABC and switched (at least 0ne):laughing: (NEC-2008)

The plot thickens. Just READ the code,don't try to think about what they meant. You will go NUTS!!!


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Why are you guys arguing design issues when the code regulates safe electrical system installations. New construction meets what electricsta and volty state, however, what inphase says about a TI is true. If the system was originally installed to code and has the ability to expand additional bc's why would it not be allowed? The statement "what makes a dinning room special" IMHO means just like the kitchen nothing less than #12 is installed for receptacles.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't think we got at all into design.

Just what would/is allowed if the designer designed it that way.

Save a few $ on #12. (don't think the majority would do this, but the legal option is available)


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