# Independant vs Union.



## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

What are the key differences as well as pros and cons of this? From my exp of trying to get into a union was very limited applications and struggles to enter. Where as i can enter a trade school apprenticeship program as an independant rather quickly. Is there others differences that i should be aware of?


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

The biggest setback my non-union friends experienced was not being registered as an apprentice until 2-3 years in, and then the trades authority would only do 6mos back-credit. I got credit for time from day 1 on the job (IBEW).

Also be warned that not all unions and locals work the same. There are independent shops out there that are really structured/progressive too.

Best of luck.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

TalyonUngol said:


> What are the key differences as well as pros and cons of this? From my exp of trying to get into a union was very limited applications and struggles to enter. Where as i can enter a trade school apprenticeship program as an independant rather quickly. Is there others differences that i should be aware of?


Each union local operates independently and starts apprenticeship classes based on the need for apprentices. If they are not starting classes, they don't need apprentices. This means there is not much work available. This also means you don't want to join at this time in this place. What you should do if you are serious about working union is move to a different city where they need people and have lots of work. You can call the various locals and ask what the work picture is like and how quickly they are starting classes. Usually they will be very helpful.

It's worth pursuing a union career. You will have a better, safer working environment. You will get better training. You will get paid more and receive good benefits. You will get build a pension for retirement. You will meet and make friends with a great bunch of electricians.

If you can't move, sure start with independent school and non-union employers, but keep checking the union and transfer over as soon as you can.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

Coppersmith said:


> Each union local operates independently and starts apprenticeship classes based on the need for apprentices. If they are not starting classes, they don't need apprentices. This means there is not much work available. This also means you don't want to join at this time in this place. What you should do if you are serious about working union is move to a different city where they need people and have lots of work. You can call the various locals and ask what the work picture is like and how quickly they are starting classes. Usually they will be very helpful.
> 
> It's worth pursuing a union career. You will have a better, safer working environment. You will get better training. You will get paid more and receive good benefits. You will get build a pension for retirement. You will meet and make friends with a great bunch of electricians.
> 
> If you can't move, sure start with independent school and non-union employers, but keep checking the union and transfer over ass soon as you can.


Im moving to San Antonio Texas and i was looking at joining the IEC SA chapter. I don't have much options for moving at this time except either SA or Las Vegas. I tried LV IBEW but no applications accepted.

I will attempt to get into a union as better pay is good. What's the cons of a union amd pros of the independent?


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

TalyonUngol said:


> What's the cons of a union amd pros of the independent?


Union members take an oath to protect the union (i.e. the other members who have joined together as one) which means when work is tight, you can't run off and work non-union jobs. You must also wait your turn when work is available. The person who has been out of work the longest gets first refusal on an available job. It then goes down the list until someone accepts that job. This isn't an issue when there is enough work. Everyone who wants to be employed, is employed. But when there are no jobs, you have to sit and wait, or go traveling to other jurisdictions that have work.


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## Costalota (Sep 26, 2019)

This wasn't my experi


Coppersmith said:


> Union members take an oath to protect the union (i.e. the other members who have joined together as one) which means when work is tight, you can't run off and work non-union jobs. You must also wait your turn when work is available. The person who has been out of work the longest gets first refusal on an available job. It then goes down the list until someone accepts that job. This isn't an issue when there is enough work. Everyone who wants to be employed, is employed. But when there are no jobs, you have to sit and wait, or go traveling to other jurisdictions that have work.


This wasn't my experience with the IBEW - name calls for preferred employees, and "salting-agreements" (when work dries up union allows member to work non-union with some sort of agreement signed) were common. Also common was guys working straight time overtime, no LOA if working out of town, and guys staying on the books with a company even when there is no work so that they get first when new work comes up. Really felt like IBEW was just a placement agency.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

I should add... 

All unions don't run their own classes. You could end up in the local tradeschool with everyone else, like I did.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

Coppersmith said:


> Union members take an oath to protect the union (i.e. the other members who have joined together as one) which means when work is tight, you can't run off and work non-union jobs. You must also wait your turn when work is available. The person who has been out of work the longest gets first refusal on an available job. It then goes down the list until someone accepts that job. This isn't an issue when there is enough work. Everyone who wants to be employed, is employed. But when there are no jobs, you have to sit and wait, or go traveling to other jurisdictions that have work.


Ah i know what thats like as a ex truck driver. I kinda really dislike that. Do you know how much more a union makes over an independent?


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Independent wages are just that - independent. Some match union wages, some undercut. Some could be more. What are the extended benefits included?


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

u2slow said:


> Independent wages are just that - independent. Some match union wages, some undercut. Some could be more. What are the extended benefits included?


I Will keep this in mind.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

I think im going to go independent. I don't like the idea of the collective bargaining and the union. I prefer more merit based work. I appreciate everything from you guys.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TalyonUngol said:


> What are the key differences as well as pros and cons of this? From my exp of trying to get into a union was very limited applications and struggles to enter. Where as i can enter a trade school apprenticeship program as an independant rather quickly. Is there others differences that i should be aware of?


Why do you think there is a difference


TalyonUngol said:


> I think im going to go independent. I don't like the idea of the collective bargaining and the union. I prefer more merit based work. I appreciate everything from you guys.


get back to us in five years. Lol


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

TalyonUngol said:


> I think im going to go independent. I don't like the idea of the collective bargaining and the union. I prefer more merit based work. I appreciate everything from you guys.


Merit gets you further faster in the IBEW in my experience. The floor starts higher, and there's nothing keeping you on your tools, you study, work, basically give a $hit and you can do whatever you want. Journeymen make decent money, but if you want more you can become a Foreman, General Foreman, move up to Superintendent, or over to Estimating, Project Engineering/Management, etc.

A lot of good hands that organize in from "merit" shop around here in Texas tell me they were making less money running crews than they are now working their tools.

San Antonio is about $29 an hour for a Journeyman, and you can probably get in easy as a CE/CW which is an unindentured apprentice. These guys are first in line to become indentured apprentices.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

Costalota said:


> This wasn't my experi
> 
> This wasn't my experience with the IBEW - name calls for preferred employees, and "salting-agreements" (when work dries up union allows member to work non-union with some sort of agreement signed) were common. Also common was guys working straight time overtime, no LOA if working out of town, and guys staying on the books with a company even when there is no work so that they get first when new work comes up. Really felt like IBEW was just a placement agency.


Yes, I can call for a worker by name, but then I have to pay them foreman wages. There's nothing wrong with this. An employer who wants to be sure a job is run correctly can call for a specific person s/he knows has the leadership skills necessary. This also works if you need particular skills and you know a particular person who is skillful. But again, they have to be paid foreman wages. It really doesn't happen that often.

Salting is supposed to help the union recruit non-union members. The "salt" is a spy and a disruptor. S/he is supposed to secretly tell the other workers about the union and help them join. Sometimes the union will allow many members to salt just to keep them from leaving the union. It's a strategic decision the union bosses have to make. People get antsy when they have no income.

The other things are violations. Was the union condoning these? Or did they not know about them?

When things are going well, placements are the only thing you have to worry about. Behind the scenes there's lots of things going on to keep the union healthy and growing. If you're not an officer of the union or a very involved member, you may never know about the other stuff.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

TGGT said:


> Merit gets you further faster in the IBEW in my experience. The floor starts higher, and there's nothing keeping you on your tools, you study, work, basically give a $hit and you can do whatever you want. Journeymen make decent money, but if you want more you can become a Foreman, General Foreman, move up to Superintendent, or over to Estimating, Project Engineering/Management, etc.
> 
> A lot of good hands that organize in from "merit" shop around here in Texas tell me they were making less money running crews than they are now working their tools.
> 
> San Antonio is about $29 an hour for a Journeyman, and you can probably get in easy as a CE/CW which is an unindentured apprentice. These guys are first in line to become indentured apprentices.


I see. The thing here is. It sounds way too good to be true or without a major downside. Something tells me that the IBEW will screw me on something. Nothing can be this good and worshipped. But i won't say you are wrong either.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

TalyonUngol said:


> I see. The thing here is. It sounds way too good to be true or without a major downside. Something tells me that the IBEW will screw me on something. Nothing can be this good and worshipped. But i won't say you are wrong either.


It gets better, at least in my Local we have an hours bank. Should you become unemployed, or choose to be unemployed your health insurance is good for almost 6 months. Some guys that don't need the money work just enough to keep the awesome health insurance. We don't pay premiums, and our deductibles are very low. Last time I looked even the most expensive health insurance I could buy on the market couldn't touch our plan.

I come from "merit" shop. There's bull$hit anywhere you go, but why do the same work for less? I don't have to negotiate my wages every time I quit or get laid off, and have always been able to work if I wanted to.

Hell, a few months ago 1/4 of the crew didn't get paid on time because of a payroll hiccup. Per our contract they all got wait time (extra straight time pay for waiting) until they had a check in hand or deposit in the bank.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

TGGT said:


> It gets better, at least in my Local we have an hours bank. Should you become unemployed, or choose to be unemployed your health insurance is good for almost 6 months. Some guys that don't need the money work just enough to keep the awesome health insurance. We don't pay premiums, and our deductibles are very low. Last time I looked even the most expensive health insurance I could buy on the market couldn't touch our plan.
> 
> I come from "merit" shop. There's bull$hit anywhere you go, but why do the same work for less? I don't have to negotiate my wages every time I quit or get laid off, and have always been able to work if I wanted to.
> 
> Hell, a few months ago 1/4 of the crew didn't get paid on time because of a payroll hiccup. Per our contract they all got wait time (extra straight time pay for waiting) until they had a check in hand or deposit in the bank.


I can understand that benefit too. Would i be able ro join the union as a journeyman? I am also considering going thru my Apprenticeship as a independent and then joining the union. Would this be smart?


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

TalyonUngol said:


> I can understand that benefit too. Would i be able ro join the union as a journeyman? I am also considering going thru my Apprenticeship as a independent and then joining the union. Would this be smart?


Depends on your local, they are not all managed the same. It's basically what I did, not intentionally, just worked out that way.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

TGGT said:


> Depends on your local, they are not all managed the same. It's basically what I did, not intentionally, just worked out that way.


Well i can always try to do it and if not. Oh well. I appreciate it though!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

TalyonUngol said:


> I can understand that benefit too. Would i be able ro join the union as a journeyman? I am also considering going thru my Apprenticeship as a independent and then joining the union. Would this be smart?


In some locals, this is impossible unless it is actively running an organizing campaign salting or cherry picking from nonunion shops. Many areas/ state have no official recognized "journeyman" license or credential, and in a nonunion shop, a journeyman isn't a designation, they're called "mechanics." Helpers with enough experience or balls or attitude or swag or bragging rights or whatever call themselves "junior mechanics." It's all laughable really, a lot of the nonunion universe has no laws of physics to comply with and it's just a malleable squishy "fake it till you make it" existence. 

Many of them never spent a day in school, have any credentials or certifications other than having been certified by some manufacturer for taking their installation course or something. Some nonunion apprenticeships aren't affiliated with any recognized authority or association or system, and are apprenticeships in name only. No state accreditation. Some are simply casual connected relationships between a nonunion contractor or group of contractors and a for-profit trade school. Often owned by or heavily invested in by those contractors themselves. In which case the IBEW doesn't recognize their pretty graduation certificate that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

. If you follow this board, a lot of the posts from DIYers are really from nonunion electricians in a situation they can't figure out and come here, or DIY chatroom, or onto Reddit because they're not capable or qualified to do the work that they've been tasked with. They learn by rote - but the theory is beyond their comprehension. So performing tasks becomes difficult if they've never performed that exact task before, or remember exactly how they did it once.

Throwing unqualified people onto jobs is common, and many will even brag how they were "running crews since I was a 2nd year helper" and actually brag about being used like that and wear it like it's a badge of honor, believing they're impressing someone, and too ignorant to understand how pathetic that actually is. But that's all part and parcel to the fake it 'till you make it mentality. 

No doubt, joining the IBEW or any other union is not 100% peaches and cream. I will say many electricians regret not joining or even trying to join. Many try and are never successful. I know there are far more people who jumped into the union and are all the better for it, than jumped out of the union and feel that was the right choice. But you do you, it's a free country. 

There are some people who feel that no matter what, it is unacceptable that anyone you feel you are a superior worker to gets paid the same or more than you do - even the entire lot of you are paid better than any of you would in a nonunion environment. I worked with 2 organized hands who were like that and eventually left the local. As it happens they also couldn't handle the fact that they couldn't yell, scream, insult, or berate others who they felt weren't towing the line - that a group of workers calling themselves brothers aren't each other's enemies, and our game isn't to compete with each other to establish a pecking order within the workplace.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

LGLS said:


> In some locals, this is impossible unless it is actively running an organizing campaign salting or cherry picking from nonunion shops. Many areas/ state have no official recognized "journeyman" license or credential, and in a nonunion shop, a journeyman isn't a designation, they're called "mechanics." Helpers with enough experience or balls or attitude or swag or bragging rights or whatever call themselves "junior mechanics." It's all laughable really, a lot of the nonunion universe has no laws of physics to comply with and it's just a malleable squishy "fake it till you make it" existence.
> 
> Many of them never spent a day in school, have any credentials or certifications other than having been certified by some manufacturer for taking their installation course or something. Some nonunion apprenticeships aren't affiliated with any recognized authority or association or system, and are apprenticeships in name only. No state accreditation. Some are simply casual connected relationships between a nonunion contractor or group of contractors and a for-profit trade school. Often owned by or heavily invested in by those contractors themselves. In which case the IBEW doesn't recognize their pretty graduation certificate that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
> 
> ...


Well. It sounds like it wouldn't be for me. I wpuld be the type who wouod be unhappy that other people weren't towing the line. That's one of the issues id have with joining a brotherhood. I appreciate your response.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> get back to us in five years. Lol


Or 25, or 35 years ...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TalyonUngol said:


> Well. It sounds like it wouldn't be for me. I wpuld be the type who wouod be unhappy that other people weren't towing the line. That's one of the issues id have with joining a brotherhood. I appreciate your response.


Sounds like the Brotherhood dodged a bullet. Have a good life. lol


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@TaylonUngol if you are a troll, my compliments; you made me cringe repeatedly. 

If you are not, here is something for you to meditate on. 



> Experience is a hard teacher, because she gives you the test first, and the lesson after.
> 
> Vernon Law


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

Southeast Power said:


> Sounds like the Brotherhood dodged a bullet. Have a good life. lol


Likewise.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

splatz said:


> @TaylonUngol if you are a troll, my compliments; you made me cringe repeatedly.
> 
> If you are not, here is something for you to meditate on.


Not sure how you consider me a troll but okay. To each their own.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

We all seem to compare union and non-union work as being good or bad by our own experiences. I imagine you could look for stats on pay and working conditions of both but really it's impossible to know what is the best path. 
You might get lucky working for a non union shop and make over 100k per year with no experience if a friend hires you. Seriously I have seen it happen.
You could also end up making dirt wages busting your tail.
Unions are more organized and offer better protection against abuse in the work place.
Yes it is frustrating to see guys that make the same wage as you and are not pulling their weight but its more frustrating to work in unsafe conditions without guidance or support. 

Ultimately what ever the path is that you take, it's up to you to decide what you want to do.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Over the last 31 years, I've worked Union and non. 

My first Union experience was when the company I worked for joined up. My first 40 hour Union paycheck was $5 less than before. The company paid my initiation fees and dues. The work I did was the same, same company van, same bonuses. The non-Union company was paying pretty much scale long before joining the Union. 

That company sold out to another Union company and they were horrible. After putting up with a few months of all their corporate garbage, I left and went to work for a non-Union company. 

10 years later, that company had turned to trash so I went to work for another Union company. I had a slight problem signing back up but this time I had to pay my initiation fees and dues. 

They were a good company to work for, I stayed there for about 5 years until I was offered a better job at another non-Union company, where I still am today. 

Overall, in my experience, there's not much difference between Union and non. 

One big plus to being Union is their health insurance is by far the best but you need to work at least 32 hours a week to keep it up. 

One big minus is that if you don't keep paying your dues, you'll lose your international office pension.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Again, IBEW isn't the only union. They all work differently.

Our union (one employer) gives us full bennies/insurance after 913 hours (6 months) worked. No minimum hours... unless you take leave for 30+ days then you fund it yourself.


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## ElectronFlow (Dec 21, 2014)

TalyonUngol said:


> I see. The thing here is. It sounds way too good to be true or without a major downside. Something tells me that the IBEW will screw me on something. Nothing can be this good and worshipped. But i won't say you are wrong either.


i've seen both sides of it, in real life. you've seen both sides of a discussion thread, it seems.

if you think the IBEW will screw you, imho you haven't been really screwed yet. the skill set
i was given as a result of IBEW training and affiliation is mine to keep, and continues to benefit me.

however, you are fortunate that you are entering this craft at a time when there is a severe shortage of
skilled labor. this means you have almost unlimited opportunity.

however, you are not fortunate that you are entering this craft at a time when there is a severe shortage
of skilled labor. who is going to teach you? the lame idiot that is the best that your contractor could find?

right now, i get cold calls multiple times a week, asking if i will bid this project or that one. i won't. 
i could have all the work i want, but who would i hire to help me do that work?

the estimator of a large non union shop, that i know, that does excellent installations and i were talking.
the owner of the shop is ex IBEW. nice guy. his biggest problem? getting decent electricians.


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## TalyonUngol (May 27, 2021)

ElectronFlow said:


> i've seen both sides of it, in real life. you've seen both sides of a discussion thread, it seems.
> 
> if you think the IBEW will screw you, imho you haven't been really screwed yet. the skill set
> i was given as a result of IBEW training and affiliation is mine to keep, and continues to benefit me.
> ...


Ah I can understand that. Hard to find a good person to teach the newer ones. Well, I do hope that I get lucky that I get a good teacher then where I am going.


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