# ever turned down CU/AL work?



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

NOPE. not an option. the connection has to be a listed al/cu connector, otherwise it will disintigrate.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I would have installed the dimmer with those purple wirenuts and went on.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

william1978 said:


> I would have installed the dimmer with those purple wirenuts and went on.


Me too...arent they UL approved?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> Me too...arent they UL approved?


 Yes. But they won't hold to many wires it is a small amount like 2 or 3 so it is hard to make up a box that has several wires coming into it.


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## redline9k (May 10, 2010)

I beleive the purples are UL approved....but that begs the question....how strict is UL approval? Does that just mean "ehh, sure, its better than using the regular wirenuts"....or "this product eliminates the risk of a splice oxidizing and shorting between copper and AL" ?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

redline9k said:


> I beleive the purples are UL approved....but that begs the question....how strict is UL approval? Does that just mean "ehh, sure, its better than using the regular wirenuts"....or "this product eliminates the risk of a splice oxidizing and shorting between copper and AL" ?


 IMO UL is the best 3rd party label.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I have seen the wrong bugs literally disintigrate because they weren't al/cu. I think they make a special connector for that old aluminum ? (I distinctly remember reading a thread on that on mh ?)


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Those purple wire nuts are UL approved, but still are no better then a regular wire nut with no-lox....
We made several connections with both purples and 3M Red/Yellow with No-lox and ran the heat gun and drills on them. With in 25 minutes, both connections were at 110+ degrees. Since that time, we no longer use purple wire nuts. We only use King Alumicon or alum type crimp/die connections. 

Here is a write up about the ideal #65 purple wire nuts...........

*After about 1987, when UL adopted a revised standard (UL486C) applicable to*
*twist-on connectors for aluminum wire, twist-on connectors were no longer being*
*marked (in the USA) as UL listed for aluminum wire applications. In 1995, UL*
*accepted a twist-on connector - the Ideal #65 "Twister" - for aluminum-to-copper*
*wire combinations, including those commonly used in the "pigtailing" retrofit.*
*The Ideal #65 has been heavily promoted for that application. The connector is*
*essentially the same as twist-on connectors that had performed poorly in*
*previous testing, the major difference being that it is pre-filled with*
*inhibitor compound. Based on its construction, there is good reason to question*
*the long-term performance of the Ideal #65. Because of its UL listing, however,*
*most electrical inspectors would accept this connector for pigtailing of*
*aluminum wiring.*
*As soon as it appeared on the market, the Consumer Product Safety Commission*
*(CPSC) questioned UL's listing of this connector for the aluminum wire*
*pigtailing wire combinations. Although the manufacturer claims that the*
*connector has been thoroughly tested for the application, neither the*
*manufacturer or UL have released any detailed test data. The manufacturer*
*states that the connector has received CSA certification for the same wire*
*combinations. Information developed so far indicates the following:*
*- The manufacturer did not initially claim that the connector is*
*intended for use in the pigtailing retrofit application. Instead,*
*the manufacturer stated (to CPSC) that the Ideal #65 is intended for*
*such applications as connecting lighting fixtures and ceiling fans.*
*Ideal's engineering manager at that time committed to CPSC to change*
*their its advertising and instructional information accordingly, but*
*Ideal has not followed through on that commitment.*
*- UL did not independently perform the "heat-cycle" life tests*
*required by their standard. These tests were performed by the*
*manufacturer, with UL accepting the manufacturer's results.*
*- The connector was not "heat-cycle" tested for the common*
*pigtailing wire combinations with current passing through the*
*aluminum-aluminum wire path (in an aluminum-aluminum-copper splice).*
*- The "heat-cycle" tests that were performed by the manufacturer on*
*the Ideal #65 "Twister" connector were not done using aluminum wire*
*of the type actually installed in homes built in the 1960's and*
*early 1970's.*
*- The CSA certification was based on UL's acceptance for listing.*
*CSA did not independently evaluate the Ideal #65 connector. In*
*fact, the use of a zinc-plated steel spring in the connector*
*violates a CSA general requirement for connectors for aluminum*
*wiring.*
*- The inhibitor compound/plastic shell of the connection in*
*combination can ignite readily and burn freely. This increases the*
*chance of fire ignition if connection failure occurs.*​

*Use at your own risk,or, as said above, save a few bucks, just fill a regular wire nut with some type of inhibiting compound.*

*Lots more good information about aluminum wiring issues at http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm*​​​


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## redline9k (May 10, 2010)

it seemed that something a simple as nolox seemed a little too good to be true given the dissimilar metal properties of CU vs AL and possibilities of fire.

so barring any alumiconn or COPALUM connectors, would it be "safe" to use a CU/ALR duplex as the junction point of new copper work and old AL work, since those terminals are non-reactive?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

redline9k said:


> so barring any alumiconn or COPALUM connectors, would it be "safe" to use a CU/ALR duplex as the junction point of new copper work and old AL work, since those terminals are non-reactive?


Sure, that's one method.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I've installed at least a thousand purple wire nuts with no trouble. I would rather get rid of the aluminum but not always possible.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

Innovative said:


> Those purple wire nuts are UL approved, but still are no better then a regular wire nut with no-lox....
> We made several connections with both purples and 3M Red/Yellow with No-lox and ran the heat gun and drills on them. With in 25 minutes, both connections were at *110+ degrees*. Since that time, we no longer use purple wire nuts. We only use King Alumicon or alum type crimp/die connections.
> 
> 
> ...


110F is still with in the UL and NEC specs. Those wire nuts are designed for 60C/140F. It is just and inherent flaw of Al wire because it doesn't dissipate heat as fast as copper.


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

I've done a ton of aluminum re-wires, and I've never seen heat damage at an aluminum wired light fixture or switch yet. High amperage, intermittent loads (toasters, space heaters, hair dryers) are what usually causes the heat damage to aluminum wire connections. 

Although I usually have a couple dozen of the alumiconn connectors on the truck, and almost never use the purple wire nuts, I wouldn't lose any sleep over using them in this situation.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

> We made several connections with both purples and 3M Red/Yellow with No-lox and ran the heat gun and drills on them. With in 25 minutes, both connections were at 110+ degrees.


I have no idea at all what you think that proves. Under loaded operating conditions condutors get warm.




Innovative said:


> Lots more good information about aluminum wiring issues at http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm


I knew that was where that info came from, I am familure with that site. I cannot think of more biased website with an axe to grind.

I would not listen to a single thing from that site.


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## thekoolcody (Aug 30, 2008)

redline9k said:


> My boss and I did a quick house call last night in the same neighborhood as a full rewire we did the day before...convenient.
> 
> The HO wants a dimmer installed, which we figured we'd be out in 15 minutes, but as it turns out, my boss decided to turn down the work.
> 
> ...



I dont trust noox, and I do turn these jobs down. They are a higher liability, and if the job is not over $250 I don't even waste my time.


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## Fusion (May 13, 2010)

Innovative said:


> *Use at your own risk,or, as said above, save a few bucks, just fill a regular wire nut with some type of inhibiting compound.*
> 
> *Lots more good information about aluminum wiring issues at http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm*[/SIZE][/FONT]​


They actually recommend filling a wirenut with oxide inhibitor? 

On that basis alone, the information on that website is not reliable.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I have no idea at all what you think that proves. Under loaded operating conditions condutors get warm.
> 
> 
> I knew that was where that info came from, I am familure with that site. I cannot think of more biased website with an axe to grind.
> ...


So, 12 amps on a 20 amp rated conductor is gonna heat up that fast in a controlled enviornment and you would feel comfortable making that installation in a 21 cubic inch box with other conductors and a device......not good But, you are just an employee, not the license holder or owner, so that makes perfect sense.


The infomation quoted was not written by inspectapedia..... just pulled from their website. UL has admitted that the purple wire nuts are not intended for alum to copper connections. The only connectors that should be used are TYCO or pressure type connectors.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Fusion said:


> They actually recommend filling a wirenut with oxide inhibitor?
> 
> On that basis alone, the information on that website is not reliable.


That was my 2 cents, since the ideal purple is the same steel spring, zinc coated used in just about every other wirenut on the market.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I never saw any bad al/cu wirenut connections


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Where is a good place to pick the alumicon or copulam crimpers? And how much are they?


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

The Alumicon connectors I order through the supply house. They cost only slightly more than the purple wire-nuts, about $2.50 - $3.00 each with shipping if you buy 100+. Some Graybar's actually have them in stock. I've bought them through an internet supplier before, but I can no longer find them online.

Copalum you have to buy through Tyco/Amp. You have to lease their over-priced crimping tool from them, and pay them several hundred dollars to take their training class before you can even buy the crimp pieces. For about 20% more than it costs to Copalum crimp an entire house, you could probably do a complete copper re-wire.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If you ever see the copalum die, you'll wonder what's so special about it. It's little more than a stake-on die, only the "point" is blunt. Naturally, the completed crimp dimension is a certain calibrated crimp height, but it's really nothing fancy.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

there are these new purple connectors for cu/al that ressemble a bus bar in a plastic case. Used them as a sample from the supply house and felt confidant with them for repair type work. I still prefer to remove and rewire aluminum if the customers budget permits but I'd be crazy to turn a customer away in todays economy.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

redline9k said:


> My boss and I did a quick house call last night in the same neighborhood as a full rewire we did the day before...convenient.
> 
> The HO wants a dimmer installed, which we figured we'd be out in 15 minutes, but as it turns out, my boss decided to turn down the work.
> 
> ...


Funny to think that that wire has been installed for over thirty years and still is in service. I think your boss wasted his time and turned down good money.
I would have done the job and asked if we could come back and inspect the rest of the terminations for $600 or something like that. 
I know that it is possible that a least 100 houses in that neighborhood could benefit from that kind of work. 
Ask the boss if he would pay you to do some door knocking and find out if anyone else is having a problem with that wiring.

BTW,
I worked for a shop that would not touch BX with RHW wire.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

(4) things to keep in mind when doing pigtailing..

1) Ideal purple wire nuts are not rated for AL-AL connections.. you will find 30 yr old wire nuts in switch boxes with no legal fix for them.

2) I install AFCI breakers on all AL wire circuits.. if HO don't want the added cost, I don't want the added liability.

3) Make sure you file for inspection 

4) Check the cut sheet on wire combinations.. the purples have limits unlike a standard red wire nut of the same size


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> (4) things to keep in mind when doing pigtailing..
> 
> 1) Ideal purple wire nuts are not rated for AL-AL connections.. you will find 30 yr old wire nuts in switch boxes with no legal fix for them.
> 
> ...


 

I know they are not rated for al to al but if you are pigtailing with copper then you would not have any al to al connections right? I was surprized to find out the purple were not rated for al to al. I still see old al to al connections with regular wirenuts that are good and tight.


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