# GE is junk.



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You should see the inside of their Powerbreak and Wavepro breakers. It's like they're made out of recycled milk-cartons.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I think QOB boxes are the worst.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Cheap boxes are not good for guys like me. You never really know when they're gonna fly off the shelf and break. And GE breakers break real easy too.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> I think QOB boxes are the worst.


And they are the top of the line.........


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> And they are the top of the line.........


What, the QOB boxes?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well the last job which was one year ago we had GE ! The story buss duct was aluminum they shipped copper elbows . Any 800amp panel as shown in there submittal was the wrong can size when we went to put the gutts inside this is after can was installed and all wire pulled . 
Now the smaller branch panels had cheap plastic insulated buss supports it looks like something from ACE hardware . 
If you had to change out a new breaker to another size due to a ASI when you took the bolted breaker out you could not install the same bolts they stripped out the buss brand new they were stripped during removal. So we had to get new buss fingers to install these breakers back in . 
Transformers sec & primary connection plates were mounted which looked like ABS black plastic crap so when you install 6 parallel 500 mcm wires on the plate with lugs it looked like it was going to break off dont turn it to far oops. The only thing i like about GE is its physically larger then Square D a little more room to pull wire or work on . 
The new transformers are now getting narrow and taller today .
Sorry but all i do is install gear every year and i get sick when they tell me 
we are getting GE junk. SQUARE -D is the best


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> What, the QOB boxes?


No what inside


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Every time I have to use a GE breaker for something it looks like the damn thing was sliding around loose in the back of a tractor trailer with a bunch of sand on the floor. Crappy finish quality.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Big John said:


> You should see the inside of their Powerbreak and Wavepro breakers. It's like they're made out of recycled milk-cartons.


I am dealing with a power break right now that is tripping when there are VFDs running. 
Small motors less than 25hp total of 8. 
Only takes one to trip it out. 
1200A breaker with ~60A on it. 


It took 7.5 hours to get someone on the phone with GE that knew what they were talking about.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

My daughter was at the hospital today getting her leg X-Rayed. The X-Ray equipment and panels were all GE and looked really solid and quality. I was thinking the whole time why the hell can't they make a good resi or commercial panel then?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

walkerj said:


> ...It took 7.5 hours to get someone on the phone with GE that knew what they were talking about.


 That's another one of the reasons I'm not a fan: No legacy support. 

What did you find out? I haven't seen that specific problem with a Powerbreak, but it sounds like an issue with ground fault pickup. What trip unit?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's another one of the reasons I'm not a fan: No legacy support.
> 
> What did you find out? I haven't seen that specific problem with a Powerbreak, but it sounds like an issue with ground fault pickup. What trip unit?


We had a testing contractor come out today but he left scratching his head. 

All I know is that you have to have %25 load to feed the display or de-energise the breaker to work off battery. That makes it a bitch to know whats really happening in real time. That is complete garbage. 

None of the thermal magnetic breakers downstream of this one are tripping with their settings turned all the way down. 

First thing tech support asked were if there were VFDs. 
I also have a SPD that ticks off the charts when any one VFD is online. 
Eaton(SPD manufacturer) and GE have suggested line isolators to prevent harmonics. 

Yasakawa drives are what is installed. 

Maybe the drives are really the culprit creating harmonics?

It is tripping on long time.

PowerBreak II 1600A frame with 1200A EntelliGuard trip unit.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

walkerj said:


> We had a testing contractor come out today but he left scratching his head.
> 
> All I know is that you have to have %25 load to feed the display or de-energise the breaker to work off battery. That makes it a bitch to know whats really happening in real time. That is complete garbage.
> 
> ...


Hey keep us posted on the final results iam interested in knowing what they found .


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

walkerj said:


> ...All I know is that you have to have %25 load to feed the display or de-energise the breaker to work off battery....


 That's not uncommon for digital trip units. The Entelliguards do have an option for an external power supply, which also allows you to enable the event logging feature. This would be great because it would tell you what the breaker _thinks _it's seeing when it trips.


> ...Maybe the drives are really the culprit creating harmonics...?


 My guess is sort of: I don't believe you have an over-current problem, but because the internal power supply on the trip unit is connected to this same dirty power that it's trying to read, I wonder if that's messing with the protection circuitry?

I assume the guy who came out did secondary injection and it was okay?

The next test would be to dial down the short-time pickup until it matched the long-time and see if it still trips on long-time. That's a simple way to rule out an overcurrent.

Do you have access to a meter that can read THD and crest factor just to see how noisy the feeder actually is?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's not uncommon for digital trip units. The Entelliguards do have an option for an external power supply, which also allows you to enable the event logging feature. This would be great because it would tell you what the breaker thinks it's seeing when it trips. My guess is sort of: I don't believe you have an over-current problem, but because the internal power supply on the trip unit is connected to this same dirty power that it's trying to read, I wonder if that's messing with the protection circuitry?
> 
> I assume the guy who came out did secondary injection and it was okay?
> 
> ...


My company does not have any high tech stuff just meggers and meters. 

It was tripping on short time when set at .5x I I cranked that up to 1 and that is when it went to long time. 
I will try setting them the same.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> My daughter was at the hospital today getting her leg X-Rayed. The X-Ray equipment and panels were all GE and looked really solid and quality. I was thinking the whole time why the hell can't they make a good resi or commercial panel then?


Because of the profit margin!
There's a lot of product lines GE, should've got out of years ago. They can't compete on a lot of products they sell.
They really take their medical products seriously. A lot of their medical products are built here, in Wisconsin. :thumbsup:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Their medium voltage power operated circuit breakers are no better. 

I just finished troubleshooting a 4160 system that had about 20 or so GE MV breakers in it. Two utility feeds, and two 2.5 MVA generators. When the utility failed, both gens fired, and synched together, but only one side of the board was hot. the other side was dead until the utility returned. 

I found the spring charge motor wasn't working on the side that failed. 125DC was present going into the breaker. If the spring was pumped up by hand, the system performed as designed. 

Now I get to go back one night next week, pull the bad gen breaker, replace it with a good utility breaker (and have one side of the board dead for a while), fire off one of the gens to power the dead side of the board, wait for the test company to work the breaker over, install it into the now empty utility main cubicle, rack it in (I really dislike this step........), then bring the board back to utility. 

I also found 2 position switches bad on other breakers. 

This system is about 6 years old. 

I really dislike GE.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

I tried cranking one of the motors on across the line and it tripped immediately. 

New trip unit will be installed tomorrow. 

I think I have a fault but I megged the feeders on Sunday?

WTF

Even if it isn't a GE problem you can guarandamtee I will still blame it on them.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I didn't realize you'd already been tripping on short time or I wouldn't have made that suggestion. I thought the problem you were seeing was _only _a long-time fault. 

Do you know if the testing contractor actually tested the existing trip unit?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Big John said:


> I didn't realize you'd already been tripping on short time or I wouldn't have made that suggestion. I thought the problem you were seeing was only a long-time fault.
> 
> Do you know if the testing contractor actually tested the existing trip unit?


No he didnt have the software on him but GE sent one after speaking with them Monday evening. 

I megged cables after it tripped and they tested good. 

We will see tomorrow if that solves it.

I didn't change the settings today also.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Cheap boxes are not good for guys like me. You never really know when they're gonna fly off the shelf and break. And GE breakers break real easy too.


They suck ,and If I have to use GE, I don't stock them and at the end of a job if there are any left over they're going back to the supplyhouse.:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I have no problem with Powermark panels except for a loose fit of the 1" single pole units one customer complained about. I do think and strongly believe it is a far better product than Murray or BR panels which I have installed and replaced many of. I've come to a point of not purchasing Murray panels anymore. I bought three CH-BR 70 amp 2 space main discos last week- Complete Garbage. In fact I have another GE 32/40 going in Monday to replace a working Murray 20/40 panel with a top lug MB that is prone to failure.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> My company does not have any high tech stuff just meggers and meters.
> 
> It was tripping on short time when set at .5x I I cranked that up to 1 and that is when it went to long time.
> I will try setting them the same.


There is not a .5x pick up setting on ST, lowest is 1.5x. The LTPU settings are multiples of Ir, while the STPU settings are multiples of the LTPU, so there is no way you can have the set at the same pick up levels.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> We had a testing contractor come out today but he left scratching his head.
> 
> All I know is that you have to have %25 load to feed the display or de-energise the breaker to work off battery. That makes it a bitch to know whats really happening in real time. That is complete garbage.
> 
> ...


Emtelligaurd is true RMS sensing and should not be affected by harmonics like the earlier generation solid state trip units were.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> I tried cranking one of the motors on across the line and it tripped immediately.
> 
> New trip unit will be installed tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Could be intermittent ground fault, or unbalanced loads. 3 or 4 wire system? Does the breaker have an external neutral sensor in the switchgear?

EDIT - Never mind, posted this before you said it was tripping on LT


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

micromind said:


> Their medium voltage power operated circuit breakers are no better.
> 
> I just finished troubleshooting a 4160 system that had about 20 or so GE MV breakers in it. Two utility feeds, and two 2.5 MVA generators. When the utility failed, both gens fired, and synched together, but only one side of the board was hot. the other side was dead until the utility returned.
> 
> ...


Well the old GE breakers, Magneblast and AK series, were about the best and most reliable breakers ever made for industrial systems. Too good in fact, they last forever if properly maintained. I think GE figured out if they last forever that hurts sales, so they started making cheap plastic stuff designed to last 5 years.

I assume these are power vac breakers you are talking about? Those charging motors fail all the time, we sell several of them every day.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Zog said:


> Well the old GE breakers, Magneblast and AK series, were about the best and most reliable breakers ever made for industrial systems. Too good in fact, they last forever if properly maintained....


 Even when not, they were still work horses: I came from an environment where, before I started, breaker maintenance was unheard of. The same series-overcurrent AKs had been running in generator-service in nasty environments for years with zero upkeep. Yeah, there were some failures, but it was amazing how many were still functional.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Zog said:


> Emtelligaurd is true RMS sensing and should not be affected by harmonics like the earlier generation solid state trip units were.


GE told me otherwise but I believe you much more than them


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Zog said:


> There is not a .5x pick up setting on ST, lowest is 1.5x. The LTPU settings are multiples of Ir, while the STPU settings are multiples of the LTPU, so there is no way you can have the set at the same pick up levels.


It tripped on ST when LT was set at .5x. 

This is French to me. 

I understand the basic concept of the settings but just can't wrap my head around how it all relates.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> GE told me otherwise but I believe you much more than them


Unless they know of some problem I don't, but we usually only see issues with harmonics affecting older units like MVT, RMS-9, etc...


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> It tripped on ST when LT was set at .5x.
> 
> This is French to me.
> 
> I understand the basic concept of the settings but just can't wrap my head around how it all relates.


Differt trip units do this different ways but if I recall with Entilligaurd it goes like this. 

Ir=rating plug value
LTPU= LTPU setting x Ir
STPU= STPU setting x LTPU current.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Well the old GE breakers, Magneblast and AK series, were about the best and most reliable breakers ever made for industrial systems. Too good in fact, they last forever if properly maintained. I think GE figured out if they last forever that hurts sales, so they started making cheap plastic stuff designed to last 5 years.
> 
> I assume these are power vac breakers you are talking about? Those charging motors fail all the time, we sell several of them every day.


Not sure what they are; they're 2000 amp, 5KV with 125DC controls. I'm going back to that building on Monday, I'll see what they actually are. 

Most of the MV breakers I work with are either CH or Eaton.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Well it turns out to be a bad trip unit. 

GE pointed the finger at everything but their equipment. 

Go figure. 

They will be getting a hefty bill from us for over 70hrs of me dealing with it plus our vendor plus the testing company. 

I hate GE and everything it stands for.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

I hate GE and everything it stands for.[/quote]
GE, stands for Good Enough.  
Their employees used to refer to it as: Generous Electric. Not so much today. They're cutting many of their retirement benefits.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

walkerj said:


> Well it turns out to be a bad trip unit.
> 
> GE pointed the finger at everything but their equipment.
> 
> ...


You won't get a dime from them, best you will get is a new trip unit if your was still under waranty.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

walkerj said:


> Well it turns out to be a bad trip unit...plus the testing company....


 Honestly, not to defend GE, but the testing contractor should've been equipped to catch that. I'm betting it would've failed either diagnostic, secondary injection, or both.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

So you sell me a bad part. 

I call you for advice. 

You tell me it is everything but your part. 

I hire a testing company. 

Testing company says its your part that's bad. 

I fight to get a replacement part. 

I get the part and that's the problem. 

I absorb all the costs for me, the tester, and mechanical contractor?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

walkerj said:


> So you sell me a bad part.
> 
> I call you for advice.
> 
> ...


To add, this is commercial new construction. 
All brand new gear.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I know it's a little late but doesn't GE have guys that can come out and commission new gear?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> I know it's a little late but doesn't GE have guys that can come out and commission new gear?


Yea good luck with one breaker


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Well the old GE breakers, Magneblast and AK series, were about the best and most reliable breakers ever made for industrial systems. Too good in fact, they last forever if properly maintained. I think GE figured out if they last forever that hurts sales, so they started making cheap plastic stuff designed to last 5 years.
> 
> I assume these are power vac breakers you are talking about? Those charging motors fail all the time, we sell several of them every day.


I worked on the GE switchgear today; they are indeed Powervac. Dated 2006. 

So far, they all still work, except one of them charges its spring only sometimes. I haven't pulled it out yet to see if it's the motor or limit switches. 

Today, I installed pilot lights that illuminate when the spring is charged. Kind of a bear since there's only one spring charged contact and it was in use (in series with the close coil), but it wasn't too hard to work around.


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## Punch (Jan 26, 2012)

retiredsparktech said:


> I hate GE and everything it stands for.


GE, stands for Good Enough. 
Their employees used to refer to it as: Generous Electric. Not so much today. They're cutting many of their retirement benefits. [/QUOTE]

G.E. - good enough


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

micromind said:


> I worked on the GE switchgear today; they are indeed Powervac. Dated 2006.
> 
> So far, they all still work, except one of them charges its spring only sometimes. I haven't pulled it out yet to see if it's the motor or limit switches.
> 
> Today, I installed pilot lights that illuminate when the spring is charged. Kind of a bear since there's only one spring charged contact and it was in use (in series with the close coil), but it wasn't too hard to work around.


What is it doing when you say "charges the spring only sometimes"? Is the motor running but not fully charging? How does it sound compared to a good one? Usually this issue is related to improper adjustments or lubrication issues with the prop latch.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> What is it doing when you say "charges the spring only sometimes"? Is the motor running but not fully charging? How does it sound compared to a good one? Usually this issue is related to improper adjustments or lubrication issues with the prop latch.


When it actually charges the spring, it does so like any of the other breakers. When it fails, it simply does nothing. 

This alone makes me suspect one of the limit switches, not the motor. But the motor could easily be on its last leg........

The 125DC is constant whether it charges the spring or not. Well, it's good on the terminals that feed the spring charge motor. I don't know about the plug in the back yet, but that's likely ok because all of the status contacts work like they're supposed to.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

micromind said:


> When it actually charges the spring, it does so like any of the other breakers. When it fails, it simply does nothing.
> 
> This alone makes me suspect one of the limit switches, not the motor. But the motor could easily be on its last leg........
> 
> The 125DC is constant whether it charges the spring or not. Well, it's good on the terminals that feed the spring charge motor. I don't know about the plug in the back yet, but that's likely ok because all of the status contacts work like they're supposed to.


Sounds like a close latch issue, not adjusted properly or sticky from improper lubrication (Some yahoos put spray lube in these mechs and cause all sorts of issues liek this). The close latch monitoring switch will cause the motor not to run sometimes when you have issues like this.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Sounds like a close latch issue, not adjusted properly or sticky from improper lubrication (Some yahoos put spray lube in these mechs and cause all sorts of issues liek this). The close latch monitoring switch will cause the motor not to run sometimes when you have issues like this.


Thanks, Zog. I'll have a look at the latch mechanism when I'm back there. 

There are only a few things in that circuit, but if I remember, there is indeed some sort of latch, along with limit switches. 

It should be a fairly easy fix, but getting to it is sort of a bear.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

micromind said:


> Thanks, Zog. I'll have a look at the latch mechanism when I'm back there.
> 
> There are only a few things in that circuit, but if I remember, there is indeed some sort of latch, along with limit switches.
> 
> It should be a fairly easy fix, but getting to it is sort of a bear.


Keep in mind when you start messing with the mech you will need to re-do all the factory adjustments.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Keep in mind when you start messing with the mech you will need to re-do all the factory adjustments.


Hopefully, I can get the specs.......


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## smiley mcrib (Sep 25, 2011)

Isn't ge the only brand that is made in the USA?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

smiley mcrib said:


> Isn't ge the only brand that is made in the USA?


No. Cutler-Hammer is also made in the USA.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> No. Cutler-Hammer is also made in the USA.


That totally depends on what product you are talking about and how you define "made". Residential CBs are all made off shore in places like Mexico, India and China now (C-H is made in the Dominican Republic by the way). Every mfr. is like that now including GE. Most may still have small assembly plants in the US because of ARRA funded projects requiring US fabrication, but once that funding runs out this year, expect to see them close too.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Ask anyone in the railroad business what GE stands for and they will tell you"Good Enough".
LC


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

I refuse to personally give a PO to the SH here that sells GE.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Ask anyone in the railroad business what GE stands for and they will tell you"Good Enough".
> LC


I was never a big fan of GE products, but you have to admire them, as far as their sucess in the world market. At one time, they were into anything, there was a buck in, and still are. :thumbup:


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