# remodel



## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

Do nothing. Show the HO the ship work and put it in his court. The ship work is not your problem.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

crazymurph said:


> Do nothing. Show the HO the ship work and put it in his court. The ship work is not your problem.


Well you have to make right what your have to deal with, if your opening other receptacles or unrelated switch boxes, yeah, I think I'd be excited to! What are we talking about ten minutes to make up a switch, an hour to run or snake a circuit? A half and hour to drop in and secure a rated fan box? I don't know tell us... oh never mind that, I know what a pain a fan is...

M.O. It seems you didn't identify and convey the problems you found first off.

Give the owner peace of mind that you are doing everything in your standard operation to creat a safe and effective install!

You can copy the articles of the various code sections for the owner to read, you can also convey to them 
that the previous beautifuls didn't even safetly complete their own work.

Convey to him that your work with be minimum Code compliant install, then get back to work.

I frankly also don't understand the reference to ship work? Is this your personal experience to observing shadie work done on ships, or of the naval work force in general or is this just a slang term?


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

CADPoint said:


> I frankly also don't understand the reference to ship work? Is this your personal experience to observing shadie work done on ships, or of the naval work force in general or is this just a slang term?


****


The HO needs to be aware of the **** work, and pay to have it corrected. My time is not free but I will do a little extra for a customer.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

crazymurph said:


> ****
> 
> 
> The HO needs to be aware of the **** work, and pay to have it corrected. My time is not free but I will do a little extra for a customer.


 i explained the situation to the homeowner and they were glad i was correcting the problem even if i didnt ask them or tell them first.i also found that the dryer has no ground and someone said i could use the cold water thats next to it.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

zen said:


> i explained the situation to the homeowner and they were glad i was correcting the problem even if i didnt ask them or tell them first.i also found that the dryer has no ground and someone said i could use the cold water thats next to it.


what?:whistling2:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> what?:whistling2:


 i wouldnt do it.im just wondering why they would do that


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Why would they do what?...Use the water line as a ground?...I think it is permissible as long as you bring the ground to within 5 feet of the water entering the house.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Dryer*

Are you saying that there are only two wires to the dryer and you are wanting to use the water pipe to satisfy the requirement of dragging a mechanical ground to the unit?


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Are you saying that there are only two wires to the dryer and you are wanting to use the water pipe to satisfy the requirement of dragging a mechanical ground to the unit?


 2 hots 1 neutral no ground,then someone suggested i get a ground by putting a cold water clamp on the washer cold water and run a wire to my dryer box


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

zen said:


> 2 hots 1 neutral no ground,then someone suggested i get a ground by putting a cold water clamp on the washer cold water and run a wire to my dryer box


why don't we have a smiley of a guy screaming and pulling his hair out?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Zen, don't attach a "ground wire" to the copper water pipe. 

It's not one of the equipment grounding conductor types listed in 250.118.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

zen said:


> 2 hots 1 neutral no ground,then someone suggested i get a ground by putting a cold water clamp on the washer cold water and run a wire to my dryer box





Magnettica said:


> Zen, don't attach a "ground wire" to the copper water pipe.
> 
> It's not one of the equipment grounding conductor types listed in 250.118.


Also, take a look at 250.130(C)


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Also, take a look at 250.130(C)


It says ANY accessible point. So, I can connect to the water more than 5 feet from it's entry point?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> It says ANY accessible point. So, I can connect to the water more than 5 feet from it's entry point?


It says any accessable point on the grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode system. Water pipe more than 5' from entry isn't part of the grounding electrode system.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> It says any accessable point on the grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode system. Water pipe more than 5' from entry isn't part of the grounding electrode system.


Duh.:jester:


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## mr frog (Jun 16, 2009)

if the customer doesn't like the fact that you're doing the job "right", just tell them that you just can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t. don't hook anything up half a$$ and not expect to get sued when their house burns down.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> It says any accessable point on the grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode system. Water pipe more than 5' from entry isn't part of the grounding electrode system.



So then he can't legally do what he wants to do or do what someone told him to do unless it's attached to the first 5' as described in 250.52(A)(1) for it to be an equipment grounding conductor.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> So then he can't legally do what he wants to do or do what someone told him to do unless it's attached to the first 5' as described in 250.52(A)(1) for it to be an equipment grounding conductor.


That's how I understand it.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

just pull a grounding wire!:whistling2:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> just pull a grounding wire!:whistling2:


Thanks Einstein. Die Bers.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

thank you!:detective:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> thank you!:detective:


You're welcome Sherlock.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

it must be harder, than it sounds!:confused1:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

today i find no grounds on the cooktop or oven circut.in one room there was a 2g with all the grounds and neutrals twisted together and no wire nuts.. i can feel it coming im gonna correct something and end up opening a can of worms.. i looked in the attic and saw 6 j boxes in plain sight.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

zen said:


> *today i find no grounds on the cooktop or oven circut*.in one room there was a 2g with all the grounds and neutrals twisted together and no wire nuts.. i can feel it coming im gonna correct something and end up opening a can of worms.. i looked in the attic and saw 6 j boxes in plain sight.


That sounds normal. It sounds like your just going to have to go through the house top to bottom and make it all right, and if there not ok with that then put your tools in the van and call it a day or move on to the next job.


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

Why do you need to add a ground to the dryer circuit anyway? Its existing, nothing wrong with the 2 hots and 1 neutral?! Hell it sounds like that's the only thing wired "correctly" in the house...


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

you ever see what happens to a receptacle that isn't grounded? I have. And it just about burned down my grandmothers house. Odds are that nothing but a dryer will ever be plugged into that circuit, but, you never know.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Archania said:


> Why do you need to add a ground to the dryer circuit anyway? Its existing, nothing wrong with the 2 hots and 1 neutral?! Hell it sounds like that's the only thing wired "correctly" in the house...


 ive been told not to install anything in any way other than the way its meant to be installed..they want all new plugs ,,then i need grounds.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Zen, you know you can always replace the non-grounding receptacle with a GFCI receptacle or if it's a 240 volt receptacle you can install a GFCI circuit breaker and mark the receptacle "GFCI PROTECTED."

NEC 406.3 (D)(3)


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Zen, you know you can always replace the non-grounding receptacle with a GFCI receptacle or if it's a 240 volt receptacle you can install a GFCI circuit breaker and mark the receptacle "GFCI PROTECTED."
> 
> NEC 406.3 (D)(3)


 this i did not know and it sounds like a good idea for the cooktop circut w no ground,,its in a kitch island and theres no way to get one to it w.o. alot of damage...so thanx


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> It says any accessable point on the grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode system. Water pipe more than 5' from entry isn't part of the grounding electrode system.


The inspectors in my area used to be okay with this until a few years ago. Now they strongly recommend you run a new wire entirely. There reasoning behind it is that esp. if the house has old galvanized or even copper pipe that you connect to and down the road it is replaced, you will loose the ground connection.

Two hots and a neutral (3-wire) was the standard until either '96 or '99. Why are you wanting to change it to a 4-wire? If the homeowner is wanting a new plug, go buy a 3-wire recept, you can still buy them. If they are dead set on having a 4-wire,pull a 10-3 and be sure to remove the bonding jumper (neutral to frame) inside the j-box on the dryer.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

An existing circuit for a dryer, range, cooktop or oven can remain a 3-wire circuit, without a EGC - 250.140


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