# 6 turns of the hand question



## Gamit (Dec 30, 2009)

I understand how it works with a service but does it apply to a sub panel? For instance I put a panel in a garage that is fed off a 60 amp breaker and the sub panel has more then 6 breakers it can still be MLO because of the 60 amp breaker correct? Putting a MB in the sub would be just for convience right?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Around here you can only put 6 breakers in a sub panel if there is no main in it and the panel is in the garage. If it is in the house you can have more than 6 in it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Around here you can only put 6 breakers in a sub panel if there is no main in it and the panel is in the garage. If it is in the house you can have more than 6 in it.


If you are planning to have more than 5 breakers should you plan for a split buss panel and save any need for a MB in the garage?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> If you are planning to have more than 5 breakers should you plan for a split buss panel and save any need for a MB in the garage?


Awesome, but they quit making split bus panels in 1984


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Awesome, but they quit making split bus panels in 1984


 :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Use double pole breakers and the count is smaller :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Use double pole breakers and the count is smaller :thumbsup:


Or 3-poles. :whistling2:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Awesome, but they quit making split bus panels in 1984


I don't get out much. I wasn't aware of that.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> Awesome, but they quit making split bus panels in 1984


This may be true for off the shelf panels, but I did install one for EM loads last year. Top part was constant hot, and the bottom was fed with a 200A contactor. May be a stretch for a resi garage, but you can still get them.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

goose134 said:


> This may be true for off the shelf panels, but I did install one for EM loads last year. Top part was constant hot, and the bottom was fed with a 200A contactor. May be a stretch for a resi garage, but you can still get them.


That was a 1984 code change.

What you describe is not a typical split bus panel (I've seen them too), but more of a "two panels in one", double end fed. The last one I saw said ASCO on the door, but had Westinghouse guts.


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## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Around here you can only put 6 breakers in a sub panel if there is no main in it and the panel is in the garage. If it is in the house you can have more than 6 in it.


 
I didnt know that. Whats the reasoning , do you know?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

GEORGE D said:


> I didnt know that. Whats the reasoning , do you know?


If it is a detached garage, it needs a means of disconnect anyway...if it is attached, this would make no sense...local codes can get pretty dumb.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> What you describe is not a typical split bus panel (I've seen them too), but more of a "two panels in one", double end fed. The last one I saw said ASCO on the door, but had Westinghouse guts.


Didn't realize that they were no longer allowed. Yes, the panel you describe is pretty much the same as mine. Emerson custom job with Asco contactor.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Around here you can only put 6 breakers in a sub panel if there is no main in it and the panel is in the garage. If it is in the house you can have more than 6 in it.


 
I did a garage fed out of the outside panel in rigid to the garage, main lug 12 circuit in garage and was told(by Travis) the breaker on the house was the disconnect and no main was needed.....Guess he could of been mistaken...He also made me put 2 ground rods at the garage which I have never had to do either!


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I did a garage fed out of the outside panel in rigid to the garage, main lug 12 circuit in garage and was told(by Travis) the breaker on the house was the disconnect and no main was needed.....Guess he could of been mistaken...He also made me put 2 ground rods at the garage which I have never had to do either!


Was it detached? What size wire did you run?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Was it detached? What size wire did you run?


Yep detached and it was fed with #6 from a 60amp breaker. I had called him before I mounted the panel because I thought I needed a main.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I did a garage fed out of the outside panel in rigid to the garage, main lug 12 circuit in garage and was told(by Travis) the breaker on the house was the disconnect and no main was needed.....Guess he could of been mistaken...He also made me put 2 ground rods at the garage which I have never had to do either!


 I agree with the ground rods, but I don't know if I agree with the breaker at the house being the disconnect for the detached garage.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Yep detached and it was fed with #6 from a 60amp breaker. I had called him before I mounted the panel because I thought I needed a main.


I believe that you do need a main disconnect at the garage panel along with a gec system...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> I agree with the ground rods, but I don't know if I agree with the breaker at the house being the disconnect for the detached garage.


I could see his arguement about the ground rods and I did it but it is the first time I was made to do it in meck.

I'm drawing a blank here what is the code section we are dealing with for if it needs a main?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

william1978 said:


> ..., but I don't know if I agree with the breaker at the house being the disconnect for the detached garage.


I certainly don't agree.
They must have a local amendment to 225.32.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

_*225.31 Disconnecting Means.
*Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.*

225.32 Location.*
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized._


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I certainly don't agree.
> They must have a local amendment to 225.32.


I think he* is* saying that there must be a means of disconnect at the detached garage...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> _*225.31 Disconnecting Means.*_
> _Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure._
> 
> _*225.32 Location.*_
> _The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized._


 
I guess they could say the panel on the house isnt nearest point of entrance thus they want a main in panel inside.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think he* is* saying that there must be a means of disconnect at the detached garage...


Yeah, I agree with William. I disagree with the inspector.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yeah, I agree with William. I disagree with the inspector.


 
I thought William was right but when the inspector told me no main I said ok. 
Maybe he wasn't thinking clearly that day. It happens.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yeah, I agree with William. I disagree with the inspector.


:thumbsup:That's what I thought.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That was a 1984 code change.
> 
> What you describe is not a typical split bus panel (I've seen them too), but more of a "two panels in one", double end fed. The last one I saw said ASCO on the door, but had Westinghouse guts.


Which is now made by CH. We used these panels as lighting panels at Sam's Club's. CH makes the ASCO contactors.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Innovative said:


> CH makes the ASCO contactors.


I am fairly certain CH buys the ASCOs, you will find ASCOs in many brand panels. In my opinion the Cadillac of contactors.

http://www.emerson.com/sites/Networ.../Industrial_Controls.aspx?8109C=United States


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> I certainly don't agree.
> They must have a local amendment to 225.32.


 There is no local amendment that allows that. If you only need 3 cir's in the garage than that would be ok, but if you needed 7 cir's then a main would be needed.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

william1978 said:


> There is no local amendment that allows that. If you only need 3 cir's in the garage than that would be ok, but if you needed 7 cir's then a main would be needed.


? I think you are very confused...


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> ? I think you are very confused...


 Nope you might be.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, the way I see it, it needs some sort of disconnect. If you run up to a #12 mwbc, you can use a standard switch as the disconnect...IF you run a feeder back there for a panel, you need a main disconnect and gec system...


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Well, the way I see it, it needs some sort of disconnect. If you run up to a #12 mwbc, you can use a standard switch as the disconnect...IF you run a feeder back there for a panel, you need a main disconnect and gec system...


 I agree with you, but in this county they say up to 6 breakers no need for a main.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

william1978 said:


> I agree with you, but in this county they say up to 6 breakers no need for a main.


Gotcha:thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The last one I saw said ASCO on the door, but had Westinghouse guts.


Bought two ASCO ATS"s, they showed up today and low and behold the name on the door was EMERSON. Emerson bought ASCO years ago but I guess the ASCO name may be going bye bye?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think that transition has been in the works for a little bit. The last ASCO ATS I put in said ASCO on the interface screen, but the documentation for that screen only said Emerson on it. Maybe Emerson will be more forthcoming with software? Fat chance...


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## OCELECTRIC (Sep 5, 2007)

in ca.if the garage were detached you would need a main breaker and you would have to ground and bond it like a new service. if it were for a pool panel you would have to pull a ground wire with sub feed from main meter pnl. something like that. i think if you have two means for grounding electrode you would not have to pull a ground for the sub pnl from main meter in a detached bldg.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

William is right about the 6 breakers, but that is national and not just your county.

If you have 6 or less breakers in the garage, then the main can be at the house and you can disconnect the garage in 6 throws or less at the garage. 

If it exceeds 6 then you have to install a main at the garage. 

Ground rods have to be installed at any building or structure supplied by a feeder or branch circuit. 250.32A


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

Correction, "grounding electrode"


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

hiloelectric said:


> William is right about the 6 breakers, but that is national and not just your county.


 I was just saying how it is here. Not sure of any local laws that may apply.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> William is right about the 6 breakers, but that is national and not just your county.
> 
> If you have 6 or less breakers in the garage, then the main can be at the house and you can disconnect the garage in 6 throws or less at the garage.
> 
> ...


Actually if the separate structure is supplied by a single branch circuit you don't need to install a grounding electrode. See the Exception to 250.32(A).


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes that is correct. as long as it is a multiwire branch circuit and not a feeder. This discussion has been about a feeder to a sub panel thus far.:thumbsup:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> Yes that is correct. as long as it is a multiwire branch circuit and not a feeder. This discussion has been about a feeder to a sub panel thus far.:thumbsup:


I was responding to you statement;



> Ground rods have to be installed at any building or structure supplied by a feeder* or branch circuit.* 250.32A


Chris


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

OCELECTRIC said:


> in ca.if the garage were detached you would need a main breaker and you would have to ground and bond it like a new service. if it were for a pool panel you would have to pull a ground wire with sub feed from main meter pnl. something like that. i think if you have two means for grounding electrode you would not have to pull a ground for the sub pnl from main meter in a detached bldg.


Yes you would. You still need an EGC and a GEC regardless of how extensive the bonding system is.



hiloelectric said:


> William is right about the 6 breakers, but that is national and not just your county.
> 
> If you have 6 or less breakers in the garage, then the main can be at the house and you can disconnect the garage in 6 throws or less at the garage.
> 
> ...


True. BUT. The AHJ makes the call. So what might be okay with your AHJ may not be okay with mine and there aint a damn thing we can do about it.


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