# which is worse for the union?



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Wormy shoprockets or the brothers who stand around bitching about them when they should be working?


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Neither one has anything to do with the union. Both may hurt the contractor though.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Neither are good for anyone.

Same as non union...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The guys who accuire material. I'm working in the home of a IBEW employee, in the garage is a 1000' spool of 12/2 NM in a box marked "XXXXXXXXXX Electric Corp". 4 World Trade Center, New York,NY.
Now if every employee is taking items , I can see why the job is overbudget and my bridge tolls went up to $7.50.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

don't cubs get the rabbit anymore? lol


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Neither are good for anyone.
> 
> Same as non union...


I never met a non-union shop rocket before.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> The guys who accuire material. I'm working in the home of a IBEW employee, in the garage is a 1000' spool of 12/2 NM in a box marked "XXXXXXXXXX Electric Corp". 4 World Trade Center, New York,NY.
> Now if every employee is taking items , I can see why the job is overbudget and my bridge tolls went up to $7.50.


A union shop buying romex??? hmmmmmm:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

uconduit said:


> A union shop buying romex??? hmmmmmm:whistling2:


Temps


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Temps


beat me to it again , lol !


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Wormy shoprockets or the brothers who stand around bitching about them when they should be working?


my experience has been that the so called " wormy shop rockets " are the ones in charge / and or doing the work and the guys out of the hall are the ones standing around bitching that they'll most likely get laid off at the end of the job , where the " rockets " most likely go to the next job . Don't begrudge a guy for being able to keep a job , especially in this day and age .


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> I never met a non-union shop rocket before.


Sure...I know a couple and there are many of them here on this forum. 

They run onto a job, work in a flurry, claim how awesome they are and how moronic everyone else is and are happy to work for whatever scraps the boss is willing to leave on the floor. They bring down everyone's wages and conditions but somehow feel they are in the right because they are 'better'.

Every trade and business has them.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Sure...I know a couple and there are many of them here on this forum.
> 
> They run onto a job, work in a flurry, claim how awesome they are and how moronic everyone else is and are happy to work for whatever scraps the boss is willing to leave on the floor. They bring down everyone's wages and conditions but somehow feel they are in the right because they are 'better'.
> 
> Every trade and business has them.



Oh see I thought a shop rocket was a guy that worked really hard to stay at the same shop and not go back to the hall.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

347sparky said:


> Neither one has anything to do with the union. Both may hurt the contractor though.


How can something that negatively effects a union EC not be bad for the union and its labor pool?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> How can something that negatively effects a union EC not be bad for the union and its labor pool?


It called _'refusing to see reality'_.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In our local I know few so called "shop rockets" I do know men that complain about them. Most of those men seen to be bench warmers or have a collection of W-2's.

This holds true for open shop.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Oh see I thought a shop rocket was a guy that worked really hard to stay at the same shop and not go back to the hall.


that's exactly what it is , and contractors don't hold on to them because they stand around complaining , lol !


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> Oh see I thought a shop rocket was a guy that worked really hard to stay at the same shop and not go back to the hall.





brian john said:


> In our local I know few so called "shop rockets" I do know men that complain about them. Most of those men seen to be bench warmers or have a collection of W-2's.
> 
> This holds true for open shop.


Interestingly many union electricians have no problem going to a job, working till it is done, getting laid off and going back down the hall.

That is kind of the point of what we do, contractor need men for a project, they get them and send them back when they don't need them.

It is a nice arrangement for everyone involved.

Some of us even refuse to transfer from job to job as that is not in the spirit of what we signed up for.

From the nonunion viewpoint that is just completely crazy, why would we not want to keep our jobs, and I guess that is the hardest thing to pick up when you go from nonunion to union. 

I don't work for 'a' contractor, I work for all the contractors and they all work for me. When one is slow there will be another that is busy. The slow one doesn't have to drain his money keeping guys and the busy one has manpower at his fingertips.

My W2 collection BJ is fairly impressive yet I doubt a single contractor would say an unkind word about my work or the effort they get and I believe the vast majority of electricians (union or non union) can say the same.

It is the guys who try to put everyone else down so they appear better, those are the people killing the trade, driving wages and conditions down. 

"I'm so awesome I can do it faster, cheaper."


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I really dont know what the issue seems to be with getting a nice job completed for that contractor and then when its done, go sign the book.
If every one would do that the system would work just fine but, people are not machines and each one has his own personality and ideas on how things should work.
Plus, we as electricians all seem to be a bit egotistical, even those that are not as smart and as good lookin as I am.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> Wormy shoprockets or the brothers who stand around bitching about them when they should be working?


Define wormy


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

I need to be educated as to how we (the union) could expect an EC to run a competitive, efficient operation without any continuity in personnel.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> I need to be educated as to how we (the union) could expect an EC to run a competitive, efficient operation without any continuity in personnel.



That's what some people don't get. I've worked for the same union contractor for 15yrs. I've done so by going out and doing my job and keeping my mouth shut. The guys that always sit on the books or get spun can't do either.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> Define wormy


Wormy, an ambiguous word that should always be directed towards others and never yourself. This word can mean almost anything that is derogatory when describing the behavior of another Union member.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

butcher733 said:


> Wormy shoprockets or the brothers who stand around bitching about them when they should be working?


Define...Shop Rocket


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> Define...Shop Rocket


A guy who breaks union rules to stay working at a contractor. Example. Works through breaks and lunches, brings own power tools, uses personal truck for company things, etc. when done once or twice to get a job done is over looked. We are talking habitual offenders. Shop rockets are often seen in job trailer with knee pads on when they do take lunch. 

Okay that was a cheap shot but just saying "suck a**" was boring.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> A guy who breaks union rules to stay working at a contractor. Example. Works through breaks and lunches, brings own power tools, uses personal truck for company things, etc. when done once or twice to get a job done is over looked. We are talking habitual offenders. Shop rockets are often seen in job trailer with knee pads on when they do take lunch.
> 
> Okay that was a cheap shot but just saying "suck a**" was boring.


I think that sounds more like being wormy


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> A guy who breaks union rules to stay working at a contractor. Example. Works through breaks and lunches, brings own power tools, uses personal truck for company things, etc. when done once or twice to get a job done is over looked. We are talking habitual offenders. Shop rockets are often seen in job trailer with knee pads on when they do take lunch.
> 
> Okay that was a cheap shot but just saying "suck a**" was boring.





sparky970 said:


> I think that sounds more like being wormy


Being that I am a wormy shop rocket, I resent everything you guys are saying on the matter.

I completely agree with it, but I resent it :laughing::laughing:


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)




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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> I need to be educated as to how we (the union) could expect an EC to run a competitive, efficient operation without any continuity in personnel.


You usually have some continuity - usually a foreman and or supervisor - but even with none you can run a successful project with hall guys. I see that happen all the time. 

My current project we have 12 men from the hall with over 250 years of experience combined, plus one foreman from the shop.

If we continue to have a high level of education and training and keep up to date with that training on new technologies the contractors will continue to have the confidence to use our labor.

I do think we need to relook at the training we provide concerning business practices and construction management - those things are evolving quickly and from my perspective, oddly, and we are having issues keeping abreast of all the new lingo.

You have specialty companies like BJ's that hold onto their guys, but that is not the norm.

I have always wondered how non union shops survive and pay their workers when there is no work - or is that the reason why there is all that underbidding going on?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> Define...Shop Rocket


Someone willing to APPEAR to work harder and faster without regard to the safety of the site or the quality of the work and or the conditions they are willing to subject themselves or others to.

As an example - someone willing to shorten his coffee break, pick up a screw gun and mount boxes next to the other folks having coffee.

The wormy part comes in when he tells the foreman he did it...


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

eejack said:


> You usually have some continuity - usually a foreman and or supervisor - but even with none you can run a successful project with hall guys. I see that happen all the time.
> 
> My current project we have 12 men from the hall with over 250 years of experience combined, plus one foreman from the shop.
> 
> ...


Are the Foreman and Super union hands?


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> Sure...I know a couple and there are many of them here on this forum.
> 
> They run onto a job, work in a flurry, claim how awesome they are and how moronic everyone else is and are happy to work for whatever scraps the boss is willing to leave on the floor. They bring down everyone's wages and conditions but somehow feel they are in the right because they are 'better'.
> 
> Every trade and business has them.


WOW, you explained shoppie psychiatry quite well. They have some kind of inherint lack of self esteem, such that they have to be better than everybody else. And that's okay by me, it's the bad-mouthing, back-stabbing, and drama that I can't stand. If you want to work extra hard, that's on you. If you want to give free time, that's on you too. If you want to be a mean person, well, I am going to trick you heh heh heeeee


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

eejack said:


> - but even with none you can run a successful project with hall guys. I see that happen all the time.


LOL that was really funny!! :laughing::laughing:

Yeah, the job would be underwater fast


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Are the Foreman and Super union hands?


Yes and no.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mr hands said:


> LOL that was really funny!! :laughing::laughing:
> 
> Yeah, the job would be underwater fast


I am sorry to disappoint you but the Kearney Peaking Plant (2011) was staffed entirely with folks from the hall, came in under time and under budget. I think we had 130 or so electricians at peak.

Unless underwater means under time and under budget, then disregard.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> A guy who breaks union rules to stay working at a contractor. Example. Works through breaks and lunches, brings own power tools, uses personal truck for company things, etc. when done once or twice to get a job done is over looked. We are talking habitual offenders. Shop rockets are often seen in job trailer with knee pads on when they do take lunch.
> 
> Okay that was a cheap shot but just saying "suck a**" was boring.


Im not union, but I am curious. Is there a different word for a guy who stays with a contractor long term but does none of those things?

Oh, and does working through lunch/break bring OT or is it some kind of freebee?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

eejack said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you but the Kearney Peaking Plant (2011) was staffed entirely with folks from the hall, came in under time and under budget. I think we had 130 or so electricians at peak.
> 
> Unless underwater means under time and under budget, then disregard.


 
The last _major_ industrial undertaking that was done in our area was a pulp/paper mill project. We have had many smaller projects at this same mill since then.
We had almost 500 sparkies at peak.....spread out over almost 400 acres of real estate and no shop rockets. 90% of the contracts for the job were awarded to off-island contractors and over 80% of the manpower came from our hall and the rest were travelling members welcomed into our local for the duration of the job.

It was brought in under time and under budget so I have to agree with eejack.........it can and has been done.




As for the OP question..........I think they both give us a black eye. 
As supervision the wormy shop rocket drives me insane.....I have enough to do without worrying about who's working faster or is too stupid to take the breaks that our contracts mandate to us:no:.
The guys who stand around bitching about it just won't last on my site. 

Our local has a zero tolerance attitude for guys like that........if you aren't there to work, then you don't have a job....period. We have lots of guys on the list who WANT to work and who will show up on time.....work all day.....take their breaks and get the damn job done.

That's all I ever ask for.......show up on time, work, get it done right and safely and go home with a decent pay at the end of the week.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

K2500 said:


> Im not union, but I am curious. Is there a different word for a guy who stays with a contractor long term but does none of those things?
> 
> Oh, and does working through lunch/break bring OT or is it some kind of freebee?


Shoppie is a term for someone who tends to stay with a contractor (i heard on this site they use the term "basic" out in ny). It is not derogatory but that doesn't mean they don't get teased for it. 

Working through lunch and break trying to impress management is wormy behavior and is akin to whoring yourself like a prostitute.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

................


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

K2500 said:


> Im not union, but I am curious. Is there a different word for a guy who stays with a contractor long term but does none of those things?
> 
> Oh, and does working through lunch/break bring OT or is it some kind of freebee?



Around here, we would call him your boss or good electricians


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## ampman66 (Dec 5, 2012)

I especially appreciate the shop rockets who will sit home for weeks at a time without signing the list when the shop is slow, waiting for the call to come back once the shop gets some work.
The guys on the list waiting for a job can feel free to starve there.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

K2500 said:


> Im not union, but I am curious. Is there a different word for a guy who stays with a contractor long term but does none of those things? Oh, and does working through lunch/break bring OT or is it some kind of freebee?



Yes. They are called foreman or estimator. 

No. You don't get paid to work through lunch. You give that time away. You get one morning break but the afternoon break is not a guarantee through union contract. Some shops give one but they don't have to. The smaller the shop the more flex you have with those rules. Bigger jobs you take your breaks and lunches as given because if you don't you loose them. No fault of bigger jobs they have to be run that way. Too many guys to keep track of. Anyway, a shop rocket will work through lunch or breaks to try to get ahead because he can't work efficiently enough to get the job done otherwise or he's just a back stabbing judas.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

K2500 said:


> Im not union, but I am curious. Is there a different word for a guy who stays with a contractor long term but does none of those things?
> 
> Oh, and does working through lunch/break bring OT or is it some kind of freebee?


Absolutely - you can work hard and be helpful and considerate of your coworkers - which in turn makes for a better job which in turn makes the contractor more money. There is nothing better than a hard worker who will also spend the effort to assist others.

There isn't really a special term for them, it is what we should be. I know for myself I try to put in a good day and make the guy paying me all this money happy. I cannot say I always succeed.

If you work through lunch/break at someone's request, you get OT ( or some compensation ), otherwise you get nothing.


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## K2500 (Mar 21, 2009)

I see, so a shop rocket is just a name for a particular variety of worm.

Personally, if I'm not hungry ill work through but am definitely getting paid. I take breaks when they are needed. 

I'm not union, but when I sign a contract I live by the terms. I have gathered that a "shop rocket" is a guy who works outside his contract(to his own detriment) and can see how that might be frowned upon.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

K2500 said:


> I see, so a shop rocket is just a name for a particular variety of worm. Personally, if I'm not hungry ill work through but am definitely getting paid. I take breaks when they are needed. I'm not union, but when I sign a contract I live by the terms. I have gathered that a "shop rocket" is a guy who works outside his contract(to his own detriment) and can see how that might be frowned upon.


You got it!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

eejack said:


> You usually have some continuity - usually a foreman and or supervisor - but even with none you can run a successful project with hall guys. I see that happen all the time.
> 
> My current project we have 12 men from the hall with over 250 years of experience combined, plus one foreman from the shop.
> 
> ...


I've seen many jobs completed by hall trash, oopps I mean guys from the hall. All done in a profitable and timely manner. I find most guys from the hall to be well rounded and capable of performing any task. I did say most. This is actually the best benefit to a union contractor, being able to flex his man power accordingly.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> I never met a non-union shop rocket before.


What? The non union has its fair share of pickle puffers. If you haven't noticed, than maybe...


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