# 250.130(c) Methods of equipment grounding



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

How do you guys address this issue: When your adding to an existing circuit with no EGC ( like the old NM cable found in older homes) and you want to add the grounding type receptacles. My understanding is you need to add a EGC. So do you guys just run a single EGC back to the water pipe or panel?

Maybe i'm just over thinking this but, I'm still confused on how the NEC wants us to make this legal.

Thanks

Go BIG or go home!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I run a new circuit with an eq. gr. conductor in it. Simple.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> How do you guys address this issue: When your adding to an existing circuit with no EGC ( like the old NM cable found in older homes) and you want to add the grounding type receptacles. My understanding is you need to add a EGC. So do you guys just run a single EGC back to the water pipe or panel?
> 
> Maybe i'm just over thinking this but, I'm still confused on how the NEC wants us to make this legal.
> 
> ...


I usually run a new circuit but 250.130 allows you to run a conductor to within 5' of where a metal water line enters the building. You cannot just run it anywhere on the pipe but it can be anywhere on the electrode system. You can also run it to the panel but if you do that you may as well run a new wire.

You can also do none of the above and add a gfci and all downstream receptacle can be 3 wire types but must be marked as having no egc.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

Here's what I would do provided they don't want to pay for a new circuit. Add a GFI then feed thru to the remaining receptacles and label properly as Dennis said.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I usually run a new circuit but 250.130 allows you to run a conductor to within 5' of where a metal water line enters the building. You cannot just run it anywhere on the pipe but it can be anywhere on the electrode system. You can also run it to the panel but if you do that you may as well run a new wire.
> 
> You can also do none of the above and add a gfci and all downstream receptacle can be 3 wire types but must be marked as having no egc.


I agree with every thing here except the last sentence. That is for existing circuits in my opinion. You are not allowed to extend off ungrounded circuits. Just my opinion of some convoluted wording in the NEC and its Saturday and I'm not motivated to prove my point.....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Malaking_TT said:


> I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. The EGC is not the same ans the GEC. Here's what I would do provided they don't want to pay for a new circuit. Add a GFI then feed thru to the remaining receptacles and label properly as Dennis said.


Dennis was correct about that part of it.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes, it seems like it would probably be best to just run a new circuit...

Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know

Go BIG or go home!


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Dennis was correct about that part of it.


Yes, I checked it out and learned something early in the morning. That's why I edited my post.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Malaking_TT said:


> Yes, I checked it out and learned something early in the morning. That's why I edited my post.


I'm glad I brought this up then! I just learned something too.

Go BIG or go home!


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know...


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know...


I don't believe you can use the sheath as an EGC the twisting of the sheath would cause too much impedance.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

My thoughts exactly. Is it safe to say "This old house" is wrong then???


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know...


Yes, the NEC allows using 'BX' (Type AC Cable) of either the old type without the bonding strip or the newer type with the small aluminum bonding strip.


That said, using the old type BX without the bonding strip is not a good idea, under ground fault conditions the armor may heat up like a toaster element instead of tripping the breaker.

If I was to do this I would use a GFCI breaker limiting the ground fault current to low levels.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Bx with bonding strip = ok. Old BX with no bonding strip are not ok. But BX with bonding strip = dicey cause its old and probably hacked up over the years as well. For me its just a no brainer. Customer calls asking for new outlets in an old house that has old wiring, I just figure the job out for running a new circuit and go home able to not worry. Besides I can charge more for it as well.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> I don't believe you can use the sheath as an EGC the twisting of the sheath would cause too much impedance.


It turns out the old BX was listed as a grounding method, even though what you describe is possible.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know...


 Yes you can take a look at 320.108 and 320.100..


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes you can take a look at 320.108 and 320.100..


Ok thanks you guys! Just trying to keep the wheels turning in my head!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I agree with every thing here except the last sentence. That is for existing circuits in my opinion. You are not allowed to extend off ungrounded circuits. Just my opinion of some convoluted wording in the NEC and its Saturday and I'm not motivated to prove my point.....


Mike I was not saying to add or extend the circuit I was merely saying you could use three wire device where 2 wire devices exist downstream of the gfci.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes you can take a look at 320.108 and 320.100..


BX is not AC cable


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> BX is not AC cable


Yeah, it is.

What do you think it is?


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, it is.
> 
> What do you think it is?


I think it's something similar that doesn't have an EGC and is not made anymore.

Take a look at the pic here. http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/a/artbxwire.htm This is what comes to mind for me when I think about BX vs AC even tho I seem to stand corrected.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Malaking_TT said:


> I think it's something similar that doesn't have an EGC and is not made anymore.
> 
> Take a look at the pic here. http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/a/artbxwire.htm This is what comes to mind for me when I think about BX vs AC even tho I seem to stand corrected.


AC cable is bx or I should say bx is ac cable. Look at the definition in art. 320


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Malaking_TT said:


> I think it's something similar that doesn't have an EGC and is not made anymore.
> 
> Take a look at the pic here. http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/a/artbxwire.htm This is what comes to mind for me when I think about BX vs AC even tho I seem to stand corrected.














Both of those cables are Type AC to the NEC. 


'BX' is a brand name ... like RX (Romex) is a brand name but to the NEC is Non-metallic sheathed cable.


Check this link for more info http://www.seatekco.com/bx.htm


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> AC cable is bx. Look at the definition in art. 320


Yes sir I already acknowledged that I was incorrect.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Mike I was not saying to add or extend the circuit I was merely saying you could use three wire device where 2 wire devices exist downstream of the gfci.


I figured as much Dennis, but since the OP was asking about extending circuits, I put it in for his sake...:thumbsup:


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Can it be possible to put a GFCI breaker on the circuit with the nongrounding outlets plus the new grounding type outlets, then label outlets as "GFCI protection without EGC"???


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> Now what if its in BX?? I subscribe to "This old house" magazine, and in one of the articles said you can replace your nongrounding outlets with grounding outlets only if it was ran with BX, because you can use the BX as a EGC... Can we use BX as an EGC? I wanna say that's wrong, but what do I know...


 C'mon,Sparks, AC shield is a recognised grounding means. Consult your code book.If you add another outlet, then you get into another area such as new additional work needing A.F.C.I.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> Can it be possible to put a GFCI breaker on the circuit with the nongrounding outlets plus the new grounding type outlets, then label outlets as "GFCI protection without EGC"???


Possible, yes. Legal, No


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> Can it be possible to put a GFCI breaker on the circuit with the nongrounding outlets plus the new grounding type outlets, then label outlets as "GFCI protection without EGC"???


Are the new grounding type outlets replacing the existing 2 wire recep.? If so yes you can. The 3 wire recep. that replace an existing 2 wire recep. must be labeled with the stickers from the box that state no egc present. Of course you could use your own stickers.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Are the new grounding type outlets replacing the existing 2 wire recep.? If so yes you can. The 3 wire recep. that replace an existing 2 wire recep. must be labeled with the stickers from the box that state no egc present. Of course you could use your own stickers.


Yes, that's what I was asking, it all makes sence!

@ bobelectric, I guess I just am over think this, that's all


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