# 12 or 14 ga for lighting circuits.



## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

20 years ago when I did my house, I used 12 gauge for all the lighting. Because... I hate to see lights dim from voltage drop, and with 90 watt high hats added up, I felt better with 12 gauge. Surely it was a PITA to work in lighting boxes, but I felt it was worth the trouble.

These days with all LED's, I would do #14 wire without hesitation. The dimming effect is not noticeable with LED's, and less than 1/2 the wattage per circuit. 

If it were *your* house, what would you do ???


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

500 kcmil - minimum.:jester::laughing:

Pete


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Spark Master said:


> If it were *your* house, what would you do ???



Hire it out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Run 14 like I do in all house lighting circuits. Any larger is stuuuuuupid. And yes I know it is spec'd frequently. But the specifier's are stuuuuuupid as well. 
In lift out tile ceilings in a commercial buildout, 20 amp circuits are a good idea, because of frequent alterations and added light fixtures to existing circuits goes on fairly constantly. So- dwellings-14 ga, commercial- 12 ga.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I've done lighting in dwellings with #14 for the past 21 years without any problems.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Agree with #14 for lighting. 
Even using #12 for lighting will NOT eliminate VD. My home is also wired with all #12 and I get dimming once in a while. The VD is not isolated to just the one circuit, so making the wire bigger in a lighting circuit is not really a help.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

My house is 12 gauge also but I run 14 gauge for all lighting. When my customers started to use decora and they were enforcing the grounds on switches I decided it was too much mess in those boxes with 12 gauge especially with multigang and lots of 3 and 4 way switches.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

#14. If I had a large house, I would consider #12 to the first box of a long run, and go #14 from there to help with VD.

As far as using #12 for dimming lights when high loads turn on: I don't think it will help, because the VD happens from the service, so increasing the lighting conductors wouldn't help. That's the case in my house at least.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> 20 years ago when I did my house, I used 12 gauge for all the lighting. Because... I hate to see lights dim from voltage drop, and with 90 watt high hats added up, I felt better with 12 gauge. Surely it was a PITA to work in lighting boxes, but I felt it was worth the trouble.
> 
> These days with all LED's, I would do #14 wire without hesitation. The dimming effect is not noticeable with LED's, and less than 1/2 the wattage per circuit.
> 
> If it were *your* house, what would you do ???


I would and did use #14 on 15 amp circuits. The dimming of the lights in almost never because of the voltage drop on the lighting circuit itself. The drop that causes the dimming is usually in the service conductors and/or the supplying transformer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Other causes of lights dimming:

Undersized service.
Loose connections / splices.
Start capacitor in AC compressor bad.
Oversized AC compressor.
Putting too much wattage lamp in fixtures.
Cletis.
Improper dimmers on lights.
Brown-outs at POCO end.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

It really depends on the circuit breaker you use. #14=15 Amp CB, #12=20 Amp CB.


I wired my whole house in #12 AWG.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Alternately, one can run 1¼ EMT all through their house and 14 will be plenty for *any *circuit.......... including the range. :laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Other causes of lights dimming:
> 
> Undersized service.
> Loose connections / splices.
> ...


:laughing::thumbup::laughing:



480sparky said:


> Alternately, one can run 1¼ EMT all through their house and 14 will be plenty for *any *circuit.......... including the range. :laughing:


But , but, but......... 1-1/4" emt could never be run efficiently. We have no idea how to bend that stuff efficiently.

Besides....1-1/4" is overkill....you can use 1" conduit as long as you don't use that damned _watt restricting conduit:laughing:._


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> 20 years ago when I did my house, I used 12 gauge for all the lighting. Because... I hate to see lights dim from voltage drop, and with 90 watt high hats added up, I felt better with 12 gauge. Surely it was a PITA to work in lighting boxes, but I felt it was worth the trouble.
> 
> These days with all LED's, I would do #14 wire without hesitation. The dimming effect is not noticeable with LED's, and less than 1/2 the wattage per circuit.
> 
> If it were *your* house, what would you do ???



You would have gotten even less voltage drop with 14/3 without hurting your fingers.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Run 14 like I do in all house lighting circuits. Any larger is stuuuuuupid. And yes I know it is spec'd frequently. But the specifier's are stuuuuuupid as well.
> In lift out tile ceilings in a commercial buildout, 20 amp circuits are a good idea, because of frequent alterations and added light fixtures to existing circuits goes on fairly constantly. So- dwellings-14 ga, commercial- 12 ga.



12 gauge has no place in a typical home. I have yet to see a 16 amp and over washing machine. 







Bad Electrician said:


> It really depends on the circuit breaker you use. #14=15 Amp CB, #12=20 Amp CB.
> 
> 
> I wired my whole house in #12 AWG.



I split wired my old home with 14/3, more power while being easier on my hands. :thumbsup:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

The problem with #12 for lighting in residential, is the 3 way and 4 way switch circuits.
14/3 and required neutrals, add to the size of the box required. Costs go up as you start using 4" square x 2 1/8" deep with plaster mats instead of a 38 cent box. Add the cost of 12/3, compared to 14/3, plus the extra labor and it becomes significant.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Alternately, one can run 1¼ EMT all through their house and 14 will be plenty for *any *circuit.......... including the range. :laughing:


that ones gonna hang around for a while! whatever happened to that guy?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

my main county requires nothing less than 12, even for friggin smokes!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

#14, always, every time. No reason to waste #12. If I ever get the chance, I'm going to wire my own home Canadian style aka all #14. :thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

papaotis said:


> my main county requires nothing less than 12, even for friggin smokes!


That's one code rule that should be ignored.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i would except for that FAIL slip!


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> 20 years ago when I did my house, I used 12 gauge for all the lighting. Because... I hate to see lights dim from voltage drop, and with 90 watt high hats added up, I felt better with 12 gauge. Surely it was a PITA to work in lighting boxes, but I felt it was worth the trouble.
> 
> These days with all LED's, I would do #14 wire without hesitation. The dimming effect is not noticeable with LED's, and less than 1/2 the wattage per circuit.
> 
> If it were *your* house, what would you do ???


Use #14. That way, the poor schmuck who has to install those ATT smart home devices INSIDE the switch box has a fighting chance at getting it all to fit.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

You guys amaze me. A typical modern 3000 square foot Canadian house has only two or maybe three 120v circuits on #12 - just the kitchen countertops. In the past even those didn't exist and it was all 14 all the time. Everything else - lighting, receptacles etc - #14. 

With the increased ampacities in the 2012 code #14 is becoming more common on 240v loads too, like heating and air conditioning.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Vintage Sounds said:


> You guys amaze me. A typical modern 3000 square foot Canadian house has only two or maybe three 120v circuits on #12 - just the kitchen countertops. In the past even those didn't exist and it was all 14 all the time. Everything else - lighting, receptacles etc - #14.
> 
> With the increased ampacities in the 2012 code #14 is becoming more common on 240v loads too, like heating and air conditioning.


My normal #12 circuits in a 3,000 sq ft house:
master bath GFCI
main bath GFCI
whirlpool
laundry
microwave
dishwasher
2-kitchen counter
garage freezer/refrigerator


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

3DDesign said:


> My normal #12 circuits in a 3,000 sq ft house:
> master bath GFCI
> main bath GFCI
> whirlpool
> ...



You don't have dining rooms in your area?


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

480sparky said:


> You don't have dining rooms in your area?


Thank you, add another one.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> My normal #12 circuits in a 3,000 sq ft house: master bath GFCI main bath GFCI whirlpool laundry microwave dishwasher 2-kitchen counter garage freezer/refrigerator


 How many of these are required by your code? If I remember correctly at least the bathroom is?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

swimmer said:


> Use #14. That way, the poor schmuck who has to install those ATT smart home devices INSIDE the switch box has a fighting chance at getting it all to fit.


A good Hammer will make it all fit right in........:whistling2:












:laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> How many of these are required by your code? If I remember correctly at least the bathroom is?


Bath GFCI and the Laundry circuit but the rest can be 14....


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Bath GFCI and the Laundry circuit but the rest can be 14....


Kitchen countertop can be #14?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> How many of these are required by your code? If I remember correctly at least the bathroom is?



Minimum of four 20a circuits are required: Bathroom receps, laundry recep, and 2 small appliance circuits for the kitchen / dining room. But most of us Yankees install more than that.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

*For the Canadians*
Once the new code comes in I bet you will be running more 12awg.:whistling2:

2015 CEC has a new table 68, Maximum conductor length for ressi from the service to the furthest point.

14awg @15amps =38m (125ft)
12awg @15amps =60m (196ft)
12awg @20amps =50m (164ft)

Any max length codes in the NEC?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

eddy current said:


> ........Any max length codes in the NEC?


None specified, but we do have voltage drop suggestions.


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

The dimming of the lights in my experience comes from two major sources -- a high-draw appliance on the same circuit as the lights, or the a/c compressor starting up. Granted, there no other latent issues, like lost or loose neutral. 
Can't do much about the compressor, other than to ask the POCO for a beefier service lateral/drop, but the other issue is easily addressed by not to putting any receptacles on circuits that feed the lights. 
No lights dimming when the vacuum kicks on, and no being left in the dark if the AFCI nuisance trips because of that vacuum..
If there was a mandate for separate lighting circuits for residential, we could use 16 gauge building wiring, like they do in Europe.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Nutmegger777 said:


> If there was a mandate for separate lighting circuits for residential, we could use 16 gauge building wiring, like they do in Europe.


 
Europe is 220 volts, so the current draw is 1/2.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Spark Master said:


> 20 years ago when I did my house, I used 12 gauge for all the lighting. Because... I hate to see lights dim from voltage drop, and with 90 watt high hats added up, I felt better with 12 gauge. Surely it was a PITA to work in lighting boxes, but I felt it was worth the trouble.
> 
> These days with all LED's, I would do #14 wire without hesitation. The dimming effect is not noticeable with LED's, and less than 1/2 the wattage per circuit.
> 
> If it were *your* house, what would you do ???


#14 definitely.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> #14, always, every time. No reason to waste #12. If I ever get the chance, I'm going to wire my own home Canadian style aka all #14. :thumbup:



As you should, did the same to my home :thumbsup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> You guys amaze me. A typical modern 3000 square foot Canadian house has only two or maybe three 120v circuits on #12 - just the kitchen countertops. In the past even those didn't exist and it was all 14 all the time. Everything else - lighting, receptacles etc - #14.
> 
> With the increased ampacities in the 2012 code #14 is becoming more common on 240v loads too, like heating and air conditioning.



Isint #14 now good for 20amps in Canada? And fixed loads like electric heat dont need to conductors to be up-sized for contentious loading, just the breaker? So #14 20amps and a 25 amp breaker? 






3DDesign said:


> My normal #12 circuits in a 3,000 sq ft house:
> master bath GFCI
> main bath GFCI
> whirlpool
> ...


All of those can be wired in #14, all of them. 






Nutmegger777 said:


> The dimming of the lights in my experience comes from two major sources -- a high-draw appliance on the same circuit as the lights, or the a/c compressor starting up. Granted, there no other latent issues, like lost or loose neutral.
> Can't do much about the compressor, other than to ask the POCO for a beefier service lateral/drop, but the other issue is easily addressed by not to putting any receptacles on circuits that feed the lights.
> No lights dimming when the vacuum kicks on, and no being left in the dark if the AFCI nuisance trips because of that vacuum..
> If there was a mandate for separate lighting circuits for residential, we could use 16 gauge building wiring, like they do in Europe.


Or 18 gauge. In the UK they have 6 amp lighting circuits and 10amp circuits in mainland Europe done in 1.0mm2 wire, about the size of our 18 gauge. 





Spark Master said:


> Europe is 220 volts, so the current draw is 1/2.


True, but that doesn't mean you cant take 18 or 16 gauge wire and only load it to 10amps at 120 volts. With LEDs being used everywhere you could technically do a whole home with a single 10amp circuit.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Ye of little faith in the copper cabal canadians....~CS~:laughing:


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## Nutmegger777 (Mar 14, 2014)

I rewired my house to completely separate all lighting circuits, and in any job that I do I always push for the same thing.. 
To me, recepts don't belong with the lights and vs. versa.

Probably a personal aversion going back to growing up in a 1-bedroom apartment serviced by 1 circuit. 
The lights would dim if you turned on any appliance over 100 watts. 
To run the washing machine you had to make sure that mom wasn't ironing clothes.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I almost always do resi lighting circuits in 14. The only time I dont is if I'm hitting 1 bath with a 20a and just hop off the outlet to hit the fan/light or something.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Nutmegger777 said:


> I rewired my house to completely separate all lighting circuits, and in any job that I do I always push for the same thing..
> To me, recepts don't belong with the lights and vs. versa.
> 
> Probably a personal aversion going back to growing up in a 1-bedroom apartment serviced by 1 circuit.
> ...


The apartment i lived in when i was in Long Beach had 4 15 amp circuits for a 3 bedroom apartment with 5 of us living there. Never tripped a circuit, but not the best design :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> The apartment i lived in when i was in Long Beach had 4 15 amp circuits for a 3 bedroom apartment with 5 of us living there. Never tripped a circuit, but not the best design :laughing:


I rewired a small 2 bedroom apartment that had 3 circuits, one ancient 15 amp circuit in old BX that did almost everything in the apartment, one dedicated circuit for the furnace and one 20 amp circuit on the kitchen wall that had the fridge plugged into it.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Our kitchen counter tops can get away with #14. Still legal in Canada, only changed in practice because of GFCIs. Double pole GFCI breakers aren't cheap.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MTW said:


> I rewired a small 2 bedroom apartment that had 3 circuits, one ancient 15 amp circuit in old BX that did almost everything in the apartment, one dedicated circuit for the furnace and one 20 amp circuit on the kitchen wall that had the fridge plugged into it.


If you think that's dinky...

Honolulu has more than a few ancient SFHs (cottages) that have 40A Services... at 120 Volts that is. They were scaled for just lights and the family radio, I guess. Even now they have no other loads. (!)

The Service riser was 3/4." :laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

meadow said:


> Our kitchen counter tops can get away with #14. Still legal in Canada, only changed in practice because of GFCIs. Double pole GFCI breakers aren't cheap.


While technically correct, meadow.......in some parts of the kitchen, we can still use a 15 amp split receptacle for our countertops. If its within 1.5 m (5') of the sink then we are stuck with the 20A t-slot GFCI receptacles.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> While technically correct, meadow.......in some parts of the kitchen, we can still use a 15 amp split receptacle for our countertops. If its within 1.5 m (5') of the sink then we are stuck with the 20A t-slot GFCI receptacles.



So basically in 2015 the whole kitchen does not need GFCIs, only those around a sink? Lucky. Im still thinking the US should adopt the CEC, that rule makes a lot more sense then protecting everything like we have to here in the US. 

BTW, up in Canada, do all your kitchen appliances that aren't double insulated come with 3 prongs?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

FWIW came across this regarding Ontario:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/laundry-bathroom-question-293665/#post2266913

I don't get why everyone things resi needs #12.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

meadow said:


> So basically in 2015 the whole kitchen does not need GFCIs, only those around a sink? Lucky. Im still thinking the US should adopt the CEC, that rule makes a lot more sense then protecting everything like we have to here in the US.
> 
> BTW, up in Canada, do all your kitchen appliances that aren't double insulated come with 3 prongs?


If it's not near a sink, you don't automatically have to GFCI a receptacle just because it's in a kitchen. For this reason you sometimes see the 15A split receps installed in parts of the kitchen where they are away from sink - such as if the sink is on an island.


From 26-700



> (11) Receptacles having CSA configuration 5-15R or 5-20R installed within 1.5 m of sinks (wash basins complete with drainpipe), bathtubs, or shower stalls shall be protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type, except where the receptacle is
> 
> (a) intended for a stationary appliance designated for the location; and
> (b) located behind the stationary appliance such that it is inaccessible for use with general-purpose
> portable appliances.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Even sweeter is replacing #12 solid with #14 stranded. :thumbup:

EJPHI


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> Even sweeter is replacing #12 solid with #14 stranded. :thumbup:
> 
> EJPHI


How you gonna put a cover in that second shot?


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

http://www.garvinindustries.com/ele...i-gang-covers-device-rings/flat-toggle/gbtc-3

And shave the ears off.

Or

Use the correct box.

EJPHI


Whoops wrong picture. Standard two gang Decora after I fill the hole and sand. The front of the cover plate is about 0.25 below the exposed sheet rock surface.

EJPHI


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> http://www.garvinindustries.com/ele...i-gang-covers-device-rings/flat-toggle/gbtc-3
> 
> And shave the ears off.
> 
> ...



The second photo.... with the 4-11/16 box, flat mud ring and the hole in the drywall as big as all of Texas.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

lotsa mud round that one!:laughing:


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Yah lotsa mud!!

Picture below is saved in JPIG format:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> You guys amaze me. A typical modern 3000 square foot Canadian house has only two or maybe three 120v circuits on #12 - just the kitchen countertops. In the past even those didn't exist and it was all 14 all the time. Everything else - lighting, receptacles etc - #14.
> 
> With the increased ampacities in the 2012 code #14 is becoming more common on 240v loads too, like heating and air conditioning.


The NEC results in wasteful circuitry, that's for sure. If it were up to me, I would immediately remove the 20 amp circuit requirement from dining rooms, laundry and bathrooms.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

meadow said:


> So basically in 2015 the whole kitchen does not need GFCIs, only those around a sink? Lucky. Im still thinking the US should adopt the CEC, that rule makes a lot more sense then protecting everything like we have to here in the US.
> 
> *BTW, up in Canada, do all your kitchen appliances that aren't double insulated come with 3 prongs*?


 
So far as I know.....the answer would be yes. I haven't seen anything that isn't double insulated having a two prong cord end.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> So far as I know.....the answer would be yes. I haven't seen anything that isn't double insulated having a two prong cord end.



Its an educated guess, but that might be the reason why GFCI requirements are more lax in Canada. 2 prong appliances without double insulation helped drive GFCI requirements in the NEC:

http://www.necconnect.org/resources/gfcis/


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> The NEC results in wasteful circuitry, that's for sure. If it were up to me, I would immediately remove the 20 amp circuit requirement from dining rooms, laundry and bathrooms.



And kitchens, splits are doing fine in Canada.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

telsa said:


> If you think that's dinky...
> 
> Honolulu has more than a few ancient SFHs (cottages) that have 40A Services... at 120 Volts that is. They were scaled for just lights and the family radio, I guess. Even now they have no other loads. (!)
> 
> The Service riser was 3/4." :laughing:


The 120 volt, two wire services were only 30 amp. Two 30 amp plug fuses in the main disconnect with an old "A" base meter. The meter data plate read 120 volt 2 wire. The hots and the neutrals were fused in both the main and the branch circuit fuse panels.
Duplexes had three tens in the 3/4" risers and the same configuration for the meters and branch circuits.


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