# low voltage lighting flickering



## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

I have been trying to figure out this custom lighting problem for awhile now. I have this LBL lighting rail system, it uses mr16 led bulbs for the fixture bulbs. I have tried both types of transformers, and with the electronic transformers it takes the flicker out until the lights are on for ten minutes or more.

The ho also wanted this on an automated system, we used the simply automated ubp system. The flicker is there with it without this automated system. I do not have a power quality tester, I do have as part of the lighting control system a program that troubleshoots the lighting system and that program claims there is a lot of noise on the line. So we shut every breaker off in the house but the circuit the lights were on and the noise was still there. Even tried a temp circuit just ran from the panel to the light, noise still there.

Any ideas? Power company claims there side is all good.


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

I would suspect that your automation program is correct. There is most likely a lot of "noise" . The residence you are working in shares a poco transformer out at the street somewhere. Who knows what the neighbors are producing . Also electronic ballasts create havoc on power line carrier type automation systems as well. When you said you shut off all the other breakers and temped up a dedicated circuit did you use a tradional wall switch or run it through the UPB dimmer? Also can you shut off the trak lighting load and run a noise test on your automation software to receptacle off the panel with nothing else turned on? If you have a noisy line now than this will confirm that its coming from outside . If this is the case you need to look for a power conditioner of some sort . I assume there are some whole house UPB filters or something like that available.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

yankeewired said:


> I would suspect that your automation program is correct. There is most likely a lot of "noise" . The residence you are working in shares a poco transformer out at the street somewhere. Who knows what the neighbors are producing . Also electronic ballasts create havoc on power line carrier type automation systems as well. When you said you shut off all the other breakers and temped up a dedicated circuit did you use a tradional wall switch or run it through the UPB dimmer? Also can you shut off the trak lighting load and run a noise test on your automation software to receptacle off the panel with nothing else turned on? If you have a noisy line now than this will confirm that its coming from outside . If this is the case you need to look for a power conditioner of some sort . I assume there are some whole house UPB filters or something like that available.


No UPB stuff, just straight wired to a breaker, then to a switch. The noise is there even without the track lighting on. Thats why I thought it was a POCO issue, but they gave the house a clean bill of health and onto the next one. 

I will check into the Power Condiioner.. We are using UPB filters, but they arent doing anything good.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

rnichols said:


> I have been trying to figure out this custom lighting problem for awhile now. I have this LBL lighting rail system, it uses mr16 led bulbs for the fixture bulbs. I have tried both types of transformers, and with the electronic transformers it takes the flicker out until the lights are on for ten minutes or more.
> 
> The ho also wanted this on an automated system, we used the simply automated ubp system. The flicker is there with it without this automated system. I do not have a power quality tester, I do have as part of the lighting control system a program that troubleshoots the lighting system and that program claims there is a lot of noise on the line. So we shut every breaker off in the house but the circuit the lights were on and the noise was still there. Even tried a temp circuit just ran from the panel to the light, noise still there.
> 
> Any ideas? Power company claims there side is all good.


I've never installed an led system but am wondering if the lamps are DC, have you tested for AC ripple on the line?


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

rnichols said:


> No UPB stuff, just straight wired to a breaker, then to a switch. The noise is there even without the track lighting on. Thats why I thought it was a POCO issue, but they gave the house a clean bill of health and onto the next one.
> 
> I will check into the Power Condiioner.. We are using UPB filters, but they arent doing anything good.



What exactly did the POCO do to give you a "clean bill of health" ? I would suspect that they checked for a steady 120v each leg (which actually will fluctuate a small bit) and a good neutral with a pair of wiggys. If that's the case , then who knows what noise is present? I would follow up and ask the POCO exactly what tests were performed.Does the neighbor have x10 devices ? There are dozens of things that can make that sine wave a bit fuzzy. One note on power conditioner also . These may "suck up " your UPB signal , so keep that in mind when trying to resolve the external noise.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> I've never installed an led system but am wondering if the lamps are DC, have you tested for AC ripple on the line?



No, they are AC lamps and 12VAC tranformers..


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

yankeewired said:


> What exactly did the POCO do to give you a "clean bill of health" ? I would suspect that they checked for a steady 120v each leg (which actually will fluctuate a small bit) and a good neutral with a pair of wiggys. If that's the case , then who knows what noise is present? I would follow up and ask the POCO exactly what tests were performed.Does the neighbor have x10 devices ? There are dozens of things that can make that sine wave a bit fuzzy. One note on power conditioner also . These may "suck up " your UPB signal , so keep that in mind when trying to resolve the external noise.



None of the neighbors have X10 stuff, I went and asked them that. As far as the tests, I have no clue. The guy showed up according to the customer, parked his truck and started checking everything. Connected some device to the house and the transformer box and then went and sat in his truck for an hour. Came back and said "Nope, no problems." <shrugh> I figure I will have to re set up the appointment for the POCO tech and be there myself, they never called me like they were supposed to, so I never got to talk to the guy.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Can no ground rods play a part in this? All the house has is a cold water ground...


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

rnichols said:


> Can no ground rods play a part in this? All the house has is a cold water ground...


No, dosent matter if its a ground rod or cold water pipe just make sure your clamp on cold water pipe isnt rotted/ rusty., but of course you want to check meter and panel neutrals are tight and no corrision if aluminum . Loose or deterioating neutral will give you all sorts of wacky issues


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Thank you.. just racking my brain on things it might be before I go back out there. The master elec thats been training me just stares at me when I ask questions.. so I appricate the responses.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

rnichols said:


> Thank you.. just racking my brain on things it might be before I go back out there. The master elec thats been training me just stares at me when I ask questions.. so I appricate the responses.


Some guys can't or want want to teach people. I try my hardest to teach someone that actually ask me a question. That's the guys I want working for me. I have had many guys that just go about he day collecting a check and never ask how it works. Those guys aren't in the trade for long or never advance. I also had guys who knew their stuff but would never take time to help anyone understand anything. When I was learning scr and vfd I had someone teaching me that when I asked a question I sometimes regretted it. He would over explain something and I will never forget how nice it was to have someone like that. He wouldn't always give the answer but would lead me in the direction to find it myself. I try to explain things to my guys the best I can but I always leave a little there for them to find for themselves. I'll give them a book or a video site to direct them. You just taking these steps shows what you are made of. Good job


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Well after alot of reading and help from you guys, I think what I am going to try is this..

Universal Inverting Phase Couplers , thats part of the automation system that sends the signal through them to the phases instead of going to the transformer at the street, which 'could' be causing the issues with the automation system. So that might help clean up the signal to the controllers..

Noise Filter - Isolator, which is part of the automation system that includes a inductor and a capacitor to help clean up the noise.

In-Line choke filter.. I did some reading, this is designed to keep the electrical noise off the powerline. 

I went this route first, since the parts for everything are less then 200 dollars, and if needed to go further I can try other options.

Thank you guys for the help and guidance.


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