# Another "What would you do?"



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If I did anything to it at all, the first step would be to put a ground wire in the pipe. And while the burial depth isn't to code, it is the least problematic aspect. Put a GFI breaker at the head end.

Then again, if these are manicured lawns, why can't they afford better?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

InPhase277 said:


> If I did anything to it at all, the first step would be to put a ground wire in the pipe. And while the burial depth isn't to code, it is the least problematic aspect. Put a GFI breaker at the head end.
> 
> Then again, if these are manicured lawns, why can't they afford better?


The hack job was installed years before they bought this estate. And, these particular rich people are extremely cheap.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I too would start with a gfci breaker. Then fix the most atrocious items.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

If they are rich but cheap I wouldn't let that dictate how I work or let it justify questionable work. I think I'd walk.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Majewski said:


> If they are rich but cheap I wouldn't let that dictate how I work or let it justify questionable work. I think I'd walk.


Stop liking my postings!!! :furious:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

MTW said:


> Stop liking my postings!!! :furious:


I can't help it, you're so darn likable!


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

They want to get out cheap and saddle you with the responsibility of a non compliant install


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Let's see if I've got this straight? 

Would I rather keep some scabbed together piece of chit conduit run working for some cheap ass rich folks who desperately need their low voltage landscape lighting while possibly taking a chance killing Jose the gardener when he sinks his gardening trowel into the flowerbed or do I just disconnect it? 

Hmmm.....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Cow said:


> Let's see if I've got this straight?
> 
> Would I rather keep some scabbed together piece of chit conduit run working for some cheap ass rich folks who desperately need their low voltage landscape lighting while possibly taking a chance killing Jose the gardener when he sinks his gardening trowel into the flowerbed or do I just disconnect it?
> 
> Hmmm.....


Well, since you put it that way....:laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> The hack job was installed years before they bought this estate. And, these particular rich people are extremely cheap.



And they know you're so hard up for work that you'll work cheap MT

In the broader spectrum your self subjugation is exactly_ why_ labor in America is in the dumper

Because we're _weak_.....:no:....but hey....

Enjoy squirming for the crumbs off the tables of gluttons 

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> And they know you're so hard up for work that you'll work cheap MT
> 
> In the broader spectrum your self subjugation is exactly_ why_ labor in America is in the dumper
> 
> ...


Umm, no, not at all actually. The company I work for charges top dollar and these people pay the bill. They actually don't even know how bad this abortion is. 

But cool speech anyway. :no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Then you'll need to unfuzz me MT....

You work for a top notch company who has_ no idea _of the former electrical you are apparently charged with mitigating , and choose to simply accept the hack work where you could upsell it to compliance :no:

OR , you've informed them , and they 're willing to do the job accepting the aforementioned hacks as 'existing' violations &/or 'pay dumb' , and add to them all the more:no:

Pick one.....:whistling2:



~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Further...

up the ante' , pull a permit, get a real ahj in there

then get back to us.....

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Then you'll need to unfuzz me MT....
> 
> You work for a top notch company who has_ no idea _of the former electrical you are apparently charged with mitigating , and choose to simply accept the hack work where you could upsell it to compliance :no:
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> :sleep1:


lame response

are you a_ real_ electrician MTW

fess up....

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Before this thread was trashed by Steve's usual pontificating, I presented this scenario as a real world example of what we encounter. It's not always text book perfect and cut and dry. In fact, most of the time, it's not. Hax, what would you do? :whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> lame response
> 
> are you a_ real_ electrician MTW
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Hax, what would you do? :whistling2:


I don't touch landscape lighting. Too laborious for me. 

But if I were in your shoes, I would tell them that it all has to be scrapped and re-done. 

There are some things you can work with and turn a blind eye to. Not this, IMO.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I don't touch landscape lighting. Too laborious for me.
> 
> But if I were in your shoes, I would tell them that it all has to be scrapped and re-done.
> 
> There are some things you can work with and turn a blind eye to. Not this, IMO.


I'm so disappointed. I figured you would go all Shockdoc on this one. :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I'm so disappointed. I figured you would go all Shockdoc on this one. :laughing:


I guess it depends on my mood. Right now I am in the type of mood that says "F YOU" to the rich people who will spend $80K on a car and $400 on dinner, but don't want to spend more than $75 for electrical work that will keep their family from getting shocked or their house from burning down.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Let's put it in perspective here. A GFCI protected UF cable can be 12" deep. A GFCI protected circuit in RMC can be 6" deep... so a circuit in PVC with a GFCI at both ends can be 3" deep


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> You work for a top notch company...


Hang on there... he said his company _charges top dollar _, not that it's a top notch company. Big difference:whistling2:


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## Anathera (Feb 16, 2016)

Upsell to a directional boring machine to keep their lawns pretty and keep José from electrocution too?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Hang on there... he said his company _charges top dollar _, not that it's a top notch company. Big difference:whistling2:


An epiphany resonating across the pro forums 277

~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Everyone knows the only way to make this work is a liberal dose of Scotchkote.

Since we're here, would it be too soon to ask if I can have B4T's rewards points?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

600 ft run makes this problem worse . If it wasn't so far I would
upsell , using the pre-existing conditions as a reason...to change
the lighting to a low voltage system (due to shallow depth of
conduit)...600' though???


But , I just had a similar one ...no where near as long a run..

Pre-existing landscape lighting was a hack job /120 volt..

Original install has direct burial 12 awg run to 3 1`20 volt flood lights.
Each light is about 20' apart for a total run around 100'. The lights
are mounted on bell boxes that someone cemented into the ground 
and all materials (boxes and lights) are rusted.
You can see the 12 awg come up out of the ground / no conduit and
into the attached garage it runs through the exterior siding and then
into a drywalled wall inside the garage , ultimately to a single pole
switch at the mud rm in the house...presumably over the garage ceiling.

One light does not work at all (the first one in the row of 3).

HO just wanted the light replaced or get working.

I told HO the original install was not done to both todays codes
or the year it was done , regardless of that year.

I suggested changing all (3) lights out to 12v landscape lights..
Install an exterior gfci where the switch leg enters the siding..
Mount an exterior rated 120v/12v timer/ transformer next to it..
Connect the load side 12 awg direct burial to the 12v taps on the
transformer...done..

Bid $730.00 labor , materials , transformer , fixture...

The HO never responded to bid.

If they don't want installs done right , then let them live with their
code violations ..I refuse to touch anything that isn't done right.

I've even added " all work completed per NEC code ..no exceptions"
on my ads and I still get the bozos calling.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> An epiphany resonating across the pro forums 277
> 
> ~CS~


Wow, you're so insightful. I wish I had you ability to weave such eloquent tapestries of stupidity.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

I'd tell them I would fix it for X amount, run to HD and buy a bunch of cheepy solar lights, cash the check and not answer the phone when their number came up.

But's that just me with rich cheap people.

I'd prob at least discoonect the wires from the breaker, too.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So I did tell the boss that this is all bad and we need to at least repull everything and put in a ground wire and locate the buried boxes and put some flower pots around them. Apparently, all the landscaping is getting ripped out and redone at some point, and then this abomination will get demolished. In the meantime, it's going to stay working. For how long, I don't know, but I did my part.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

If the PVC is only 3" deep, why not locate the run and cut out the J boxes completely leaving them buried. Splice the PVC, Pull new wires and be done?

How hard could that be?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What did BBQ say about this Peter?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Helmut said:


> If the PVC is only 3" deep, why not locate the run and cut out the J boxes completely leaving them buried. Splice the PVC, Pull new wires and be done?
> 
> How hard could that be?


I suggested that we do exactly that, re-pull and get everything at least somewhat safe. That's when I was told it the landscaping and driveway were being reconfigured. Okey dokey.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What did BBQ say about this Peter?


Don't know, don't care. :no:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Peter, is it not your own personal license on the line for doing non-code compliant work?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Don't know, don't care. :no:


Oh stop. I know that you, Meadow, and BBQ are besties over at Holt's.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Peter, is it not your own personal license on the line for doing non-code compliant work?


Probably.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Oh stop. I know that you, Meadow, and BBQ are besties over at Holt's.


"Besties" :laughing::laughing::no:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Probably.


Well then that is silly.

I put my own license at risk for my own profit and because I am really lazy. But I wouldn't do it for other people's benefit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Well then that is silly.
> 
> I put my own license at risk for my own profit and because I am really lazy. But I wouldn't do it for other people's benefit.


I made this issues known to the person I work for, who is also licensed and insured. I'm not sure what else I can do, short of going there in the middle of the night and cutting all the wire in the j-boxes 1" long. He's the one getting paid and his name is on the work.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I made this issues known to the person I work for, who is also licensed and insured. I'm not sure what else I can do, short of going there in the middle of the night and cutting all the wire in the j-boxes 1" long. He's the one getting paid and his name is on the work.


Well that's different than what you said earlier.

If your license is in fact on the line when doing non-code compliant work, you should have explained that to the boss.

And remember, I am not trying to pester you, I am only answering the question you asked ("What would you do", you even called me out by name).


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Well that's different than what you said earlier.
> 
> If your license is in fact on the line when doing non-code compliant work, you should have explained that to the boss.
> 
> And remember, I am not trying to pester you, I am only answering the question you asked ("What would you do", you even called me out by name).


With our legal system, anyone can be sued for anything at anytime. That's why I said "probably." Whether it's actually on the line or not, I can't say for certain. Any licensed person could be implicated for doing non-compliant work for a contractor or while working by themselves. I don't really know the details or specifics of the law.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MTW said:


> The scenario: outdoor wiring in PVC conduit that serves receptacles in the bushes and trees. Its sole purpose is for plug in transformers for low voltage lighting. The wiring is a total abortion. The PVC is buried about 3", there are multiple B4T buried boxes, no GFCI's and there is no ground wire either.  The runs are about 600 feet and to dig it all up and repair it would take many days, cutting across manicured lawns and there is simply no budget to replace it.
> 
> Would you work on it and keep it running, or would you disconnect power and refuse to touch it?


Is there any kind of a local "rehab" rule that would allow only certain things to be fixed?

I don't know about GFCI protection at the beginning of the circuit. If its as bad as you've described, I would expect nuisance trips and call backs.

I guess the depth of the conduit doesn't bother me as much as the buried boxes and lack of EGC and GFCI.

I would get approval before disconnecting anything, but I would recommend at least eliminating the buried boxes and pulling new wire with an EGC.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> Is there any kind of a local "rehab" rule that would allow only certain things to be fixed?
> 
> I don't know about GFCI protection at the beginning of the circuit. If its as bad as you've described, I would expect nuisance trips and call backs.
> 
> ...


We don't have a rehab rule that some states do. A GFCI at the panel would certainly nuisance trip under these conditions. As I said, I suggested we at least repull and find all the boxes, but I was shot down. Not much more I can do at this point.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What did BBQ say about this Peter?


Yea! Where is that ****er? Maybe he will come back now? You know because everything is cool now. :laughing:
I kinda miss him since he was a liberal like me!!!!!:thumbsup: 

Peter. You did all you could do. You told them what needed to be done and they chose to not listen. So in my opinion your responsibility is no longer in question.


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