# Moment point weight of transformer



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well on a typical construction project sometimes we have to calculate things . I need a electrician that designs his work to tell me how .

I need you to help me calculate the four point moment weight of a transformer . 

Our problem is the weight of a 500 KVA transformer is 2550 lbs 
but the coil core internally is not centered its off center located more towards the backside of transformer frame .

Your fulcrum or datum is your point pick one off center ill make it easy for you .

We must install isolation springs under transformer per spec .

Each spring front to back can not be adjustable .

You cant not get this info from a manufacture .

We need the moment weight of each corner exact ?

Ill give you only the weight but if its better for you pick your own 
transformer size and weight just show your work in detail .:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We do it all the time - RIGGERS.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Bolt it to the floor and hard pipe it...problem solved.:thumbsup:

But since it is spec'd...

Give the problem to the :nerd: and let him/her figure it out.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I am confused. What is "moment" weight? Why do you need it? To make the lift? To size the springs?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> Bolt it to the floor and hard pipe it...problem solved.:thumbsup:
> 
> But since it is spec'd...
> 
> Give the problem to the :nerd: and let him/her figure it out.



Its the electrical contractors job to do this on a construction project .

you cant hard pipe a transformer flex .

And yes is spec no choice bro .:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

piperunner said:


> Well on a typical construction project sometimes we have to calculate things . I need a electrician that designs his work to tell me how .
> 
> I need you to help me calculate the four point moment weight of a transformer .
> 
> ...


You have engineered drawings and a spec requiring the isolators. Sounds like the engineer should be doing this for you. :whistling2:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Its the electrical contractors job to do this on a construction project .
> 
> you can hard pipe a transformer flex .
> 
> And yes is spec no choice bro .:thumbup:


Do you know the answer , or are you surfing for one , lol ? Something that critical , I wouldn't even mess with and sub it out to a rigging contractor . Not saying an electrician can't figure this out , but what else do riggers do ? Don't forget to hard pipe that sucker right into the top of the housing , that will keep it from tipping over , lol .


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

nolabama said:


> I am confused. What is "moment" weight? Why do you need it? To make the lift? To size the springs?





Moment weight is the weight in lbs of each corner of that transformer frame .

We need it to get the correct isolation springs for that transformer


Weight lbs 

This has nothing to due with lifting a transformer as Brain thinks this is setting it on the pad for life installed on springs bro .

We dont need a rigger we do the rigging its to install on spring isolators on a house pad .:thumbup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> Do you know the answer , or are you surfing for one , lol ? Something that critical , I wouldn't even mess with and sub it out to a rigging contractor . Not saying an electrician can't figure this out , but what else do riggers do ? Don't forget to hard pipe that sucker right into the top of the housing , that will keep it from tipping over , lol .




Well read the post your a dope weres BBQ i need his input :laughing: .


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Four compresion load cells and a digitizer. Probably more accurate than an engineer's calc.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Moment weight is the weight in lbs of each corner of that transformer frame .
> 
> We need it to get the correct isolation springs for that transformer
> 
> ...


Ok , so if the rigging isn't an issue to you , that's great , but I don't thing the EC on the job should be responsible for sizing the springs for this thing either . Make the engineers do something beside screw up drawings and design electrical rooms too small for the equipment going in them , lol ! What's the worst that happens here , the springs flatten out like a pancake , or it sits unlevel ?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

No one here could give you an exact answer without knowing some exact measurements.

Knowing the center of gravity of the unit as a whole would be a plus.

Without that, you would need the center of gravity of the enclosure and the core to find the CoG as a whole, then if you had the distances to each corner from the CoG, you could figure out the weight on each corner of the unit.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well read the post your a dope weres BBQ i need his input :laughing: .


I'm usually on your side , but now I'm a dope , lol ? Happy 4th to you too BRO , lol !


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> I'm usually on your side , but now I'm a dope , lol ? Happy 4th to you too BRO , lol !



Well gee i was just joking cant you take a joke bro :laughing:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well gee i was just joking cant you take a joke bro :laughing:


I was joking too oh runner of pipe , lol ! Seriously though , will the engineers not help you here or are you not asking them ? Wouldn't the transformer manufacturer have that info ? Why make life harder ?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> No one here could give you an exact answer without knowing some exact measurements.
> 
> Knowing the center of gravity of the unit as a whole would be a plus.
> 
> Without that, you would need the center of gravity of the enclosure and the core to find the CoG as a whole, then if you had the distances to each corner from the CoG, you could figure out the weight on each corner of the unit.



Well yes anyone can thats why iam asking the question you can pick it yourself center axis point any size frame or any weight .
were only asking the question but any info or input is fine bro.
It doesnt have to be a 500 KVA we have different transformers from 15 KVA up to 2000 KVA.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

You obviously aren't asking the question correctly, because the weight on each corner (ie spring points) will differ greatly depending on the weight of the unit and where the CoG is located within that unit.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> I was joking too oh runner of pipe , lol ! Seriously though , will the engineers not help you here or are you not asking them ? Wouldn't the transformer manufacturer have that info ? Why make life harder ?



Well its not there equipment its ours they only design there electrical scope.

Square - D will not give info because they have there own isolation inside there transformer so legally they just will not provide it even if they had it which has already been requested answer is no . Point is we have to do this normally and us monkey pipe runners in construction are slow dumb and i was told cant design it with out a drawing so thats why iam asking the question here .

Were is the design team today everyones off so i hope to get a answer soon.:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Is it already time for another d*ck measuring contest? Alright, hold on, let me go find a ruler.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> You obviously aren't asking the question correctly, because the weight on each corner (ie spring points) will differ greatly depending on the weight of the unit and where the CoG is located within that unit.



Well i dont agree you can pick your own weight your own size or length to arms or moments have at it bro. 
Pick your center of G use your own datum point just give me your calculation by example we understand its not easy but point is i would like to see someone show me how its done . Iwas told iam a construction monkey and this is one of our problems on each job we do. 

Take all the time you need iam interested in what someone comes up with .


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Big John said:


> Is it already time for another d*ck measuring contest? Alright, hold on, let me go find a ruler.



We know who is the biggest on this site what i need to know whos the design electrician on this forum that can figure this problem out since its not the code but a common in construction electrical design issue :laughing:.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You have engineered drawings and a spec requiring the isolators. Sounds like the engineer should be doing this for you. :whistling2:



Well BBQ no the engineer doesnt thats why i need you to answer it because you design electrical projects and this is right up you alley bro .

Remember i dont do anything unless its on a drawning i have no common sense iam a pipe jockey . And never have to design anything its all layed out on paper for me . Heres your chance to make me humble bro .:laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm not an engineer...
and can barely read, let alone do math....
but seems to me.....
you could lift the thing [barely off the ground] utilizing 4 chain falls and 4 scale springs...
and basically dial in the transformer with the chain falls to establish "level" then read the scales.


Other than that...IMHO, it's engineering's problem.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I'm not an engineer...
> and can barely read, let alone do math....
> but seems to me.....
> you could lift the thing [barely off the ground] utilizing 4 chain falls and 4 scale springs...
> ...


Well theres a easy way its called math were not hanging 85# transformers on this project on scales in each corner and that my friend would not work it would fall backwards off center off balance.:laughing:

Think more chain on chain fall then less chain on other chain fall do the math iam just a dumb construction electrician that needs help here .


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> you cant hard pipe a transformer


Code art please.


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## ghostwriter (Nov 1, 2007)

Based on he amount of transformers you have in the building, 

SteveBayshore method is a great way to get the numbers:thumbsup:

That way the CMs engineering kids can't question the math. Just make sure everything is calibrated in the past 6 months LOL

But as a down and dirty method I would probably just allocate the weight based on percentages of where the center of gravity is located. Front to back.

Keep posting pics.

Thanks


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well theres a easy way its called math ....


Its only easy when you know the formulas ...which you don't :laughing:




piperunner said:


> were not hanging 85# transformers on this project on scales in each corner ...


Here's a little transformer I picked up a month ago or so...




















This 33MVA unit weighed in about 150k lbs :thumbsup:



piperunner said:


> and that my friend would not work it would fall backwards off center off balance.:laughing:


You would be surprised what will work when it comes to rigging and a well thought out and executed plan.




piperunner said:


> i am just a dumb construction electrician that needs help here .


...so am I :


Celtic said:


> I'm not an engineer...
> and can barely read, let alone do math....


 :jester:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well Celtic thats very impressive but were not rigging a transformer it has nothing to do with picking we already did that last week bro .

Thats why were here to find the answer to the question ?

We already have them on the pads and  sitting on blocks.
What we need is the correct springs designed under them da .

What were interested in is what the weight of each corner is ? But put up more photos of your work . Gee and i thought you only did residential work. Your going to be working with ZOG now ill bet he cant wait to have you on the team.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


>


You guys have screwy lightning aerials. What are you, too damn fancy for metal poles like the rest of us? :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well Celtic thats very impressive but were not rigging a transformer it has nothing to do with picking we already did that last week bro .
> 
> We already have them on the pads and sitting on blocks.
> What we need is the correct springs designed under them da .
> ...


The point I was trying to make is that sometimes you need to think a little differently...using what you might have readily available.
I know we all have brains and calculators and access to the interwebs....but sometimes, that just isn't going to cut it.




piperunner said:


> But put up more photos of your work . Gee and i thought you only did residential work.


:whistling2: ....stealth mode


I'm like an electrical ninja

:laughing:



piperunner said:


> Your going to be working with ZOG now


...long way to go before I reach the levels of guys like ZOG.:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Big John said:


> You guys have screwy lightning aerials. What are you, too damn fancy for metal poles like the rest of us? :laughing:


LOL :jester:

I saw those too and was like "WTF?"

That yard is not in my neck of the woods....more like ShockDocs :shifty:

..That type is called a "spline ball"









..it looks painful to just install that somabeech. :laughing:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well Celtic thats why iam on ET today to get all the great minds together and hopefully they will find the answer .

Remember i just run pipe all day i dont do anything else when theres no conduit to run i just stand there waiting hoping that a change may come out and i can add more pipe . 

Now out of the clear blue sky they want me to design something and iam just overwhelmed .


I really need the answer i want the folks at work to see that its not just pipe all day. Then i can get out of that rut and that i can do design work . Just like Obama we can do! its yes we can 

YES WE CAN DO IT . :thumbsup:


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

Ok stupid question, he is looking for springs or dampers to set the transformer, on a house keeping pad? And needs to know the weight of the corners where he puts the spring? If memory serves. Devide the weight by 4 that is static corner weight, figure out the % the core is off center, tape measure will tell you that, subtract the weight from the front spring add to the rear. If it was my self, 4 bolt in bump stops (for a car) the red urethane ones should hold it. Just make sure it is level. And cut them to 3/4" to limit wobble. Ok let the hammering begin!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Moment weight is the weight in lbs of each corner of that transformer frame .
> 
> We need it to get the correct isolation springs for that transformer
> 
> ...



We would measure something like this. It would be the easiest thing to do. Your looking at a 2500# load total. Who cares if its to the third decimal point correct springs. 

Personally I think your trolling. 

If your not, your "engineer" that suggested something as silly as spring loaded feet should be on the hook for size of said springs. 

I have never heard the term "movement" weight. 

I personally have been involved in some of the heaviest moves in the nation with our movable lift spans. We measure not calculate. A mechanical engineering firm is responsible for this.

Also hard pipe the transformer. For me, God, and country.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Big John said:


> You guys have screwy lightning aerials. What are you, too damn fancy for metal poles like the rest of us? :laughing:


Lightning diffusers they call em now


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?

It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

RHWilks said:


> Ok stupid question, he is looking for springs or dampers to set the transformer, on a house keeping pad? And needs to know the weight of the corners where he puts the spring? If memory serves. Devide the weight by 4 that is static corner weight, figure out the % the core is off center, tape measure will tell you that, subtract the weight from the front spring add to the rear. If it was my self, 4 bolt in bump stops (for a car) the red urethane ones should hold it. Just make sure it is level. And cut them to 3/4" to limit wobble. Ok let the hammering begin!



Well theres never a stupid question your one of few that actually understands what iam asking .

I need isolation springs under each corner that will be for vibration . These can not be just a spring for physical support but are design for sound elimination so the size must be only for that weight on that corner . Yes the front will be less then the back but you can not divide by four .


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Piperunner, I don't have your answer about calculations, but I read thru this and I keep reading about wanting to obtain a weight at each corner of the Xformer. So if your going to be lifting it to put isolation springs under it, you'll have means to lift it to put these under it to get your 4 corner weights.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

nolabama said:


> We would measure something like this. It would be the easiest thing to do. Your looking at a 2500# load total. Who cares if its to the third decimal point correct springs.
> 
> Personally I think your trolling.
> 
> ...



Well am not a engineer bro and i dont care what you think or do what i need to know is the weight on all four corners and iam not impressed with you heaviest moves your a rigger not a electrician bro so sto it bra.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

niteshift said:


> Piperunner, I don't have your answer about calculations, but I read thru this and I keep reading about wanting to obtain a weight at each corner of the Xformer. So if your going to be lifting it to put isolation springs under it, you'll have means to lift it to put these under it to get your 4 corner weights.


Now that i like you made my day bro.:thumbsup:


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

piperunner said:


> Well Celtic thats very impressive but were not rigging a transformer it has nothing to do with picking we already did that last week bro .
> 
> Thats why were here to find the answer to the question ?
> 
> ...


When you lifted the trans. was it from a single point? If so, did it lean or stay level?

When you do get springs will you get get somebody to lift all four corners together or one at a time?

Maybe you can word the contract for jack guy to make two trips. One to tell you how much weight is on each corner, so you can spec. the springs and another trip to set the springs.

Even a house mover or scale guy (like a state trooper:laughing could do this fairly easy.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well am not a engineer bro and i dont care what you think or do what i need to know is the weight on all four corners and iam not impressed with you heaviest moves your a rigger not a electrician bro so sto it bra.


Wow , you're on a role today , lol ! Try to be kind on out country's birthday . I personally think whoever is making you put the isolation springs on should be providing you with this information . One of the best electricians / general foreman I've ever worked with used to always tell people " in not an engineer , I'm just a dumb installer ", lol . He was smarter than most engineers , but wasn't putting his neck on the line for something that they should have designed . The fact that sq D is telling you that their own internal isolators are enough tell me , that maybe these things aren't even needed ? I understand all about vibration and sound travel , but also think a lot of what is spec'd is extreme overkill . If its rear heavy by a certain percentage , get heavier springs for the back . I don't have the equation to give you , but I'll bet ya an engineer would , besides , we're just dumb installers , lol !


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> When you lifted the trans. was it from a single point? If so, did it lean or stay level?
> 
> When you do get springs will you get get somebody to lift all four corners together or one at a time?
> 
> ...


Well i dont know how to say this but what are you saying bro .

We take it off truck we fly it with a crane we roll it on the pad we install it we dont hire a rigger we dont use a jack guy .

Whos a jack guy anyway never heard that used before .

But you lost me after house mover and the state trooper .


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?

It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?
> 
> It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.


If you hard pipe into and out of it it will stop all that moving around.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> Wow , you're on a role today , lol ! Try to be kind on out country's birthday . I personally think whoever is making you put the isolation springs on should be providing you with this information . One of the best electricians / general foreman I've ever worked with used to always tell people " in not an engineer , I'm just a dumb installer ", lol . He was smarter than most engineers , but wasn't putting his neck on the line for something that they should have designed . The fact that sq D is telling you that their own internal isolators are enough tell me , that maybe these things aren't even needed ? I understand all about vibration and sound travel , but also think a lot of what is spec'd is extreme overkill . If its rear heavy by a certain percentage , get heavier springs for the back . I don't have the equation to give you , but I'll bet ya an engineer would , besides , we're just dumb installers , lol !



Well Yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no but by the way happy fourth bro if i didnt say that before we dont have a choice in this is its on the drawings details specs they even tell you what type brand to get but what they dont do is tell you the weight needed . Now iam still wait for the design team to come up with the solution weres BBQ weres the engineers today . 
:laughing:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

nolabama said:


> If you hard pipe into and out of it it will stop all that moving around.



You just worrie about the next big transformer your setting bro this is a personal matter here and iam not trolling :laughing:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

piperunner said:


> You just worrie about the next big transformer your setting bro this is a personal matter here and iam not trolling :laughing:


We hire riggers to set big transformers.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> iam not trolling ...


...can you answer my question [now asked for the 3rd time]




Celtic said:


> Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?
> 
> It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?
> 
> It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.


 Lots of vibration. Without the springs it's likely to vibrate right out of the room and down the steps.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Big John said:


> Lots of vibration. Without the springs it's likely to vibrate right out of the room and down the steps.


And into a school playground , where it will obviously wreak havoc , lol ! This in no laughing matter , or is it ?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I think a little girl got her feelings hurt here one day.

It is your time of the month?

Maybe you need some of these?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well Yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no but by the way happy fourth bro if i didnt say that before we dont have a choice in this is its on the drawings details specs they even tell you what type brand to get but what they dont do is tell you the weight needed . Now iam still wait for the design team to come up with the solution weres BBQ weres the engineers today .
> :laughing:


The best BBQ is gonna do for ya is give you a code article stating why these aren't required , nor is flexing into a xfmr , lol . I'd hate to think he knows the NEC as well as it seems , and if he does , I'm fairly certain he sleeps with it under his pillow ? I come here for my code questions . He's quicker than me finding in the book myself , lol !


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ...can you answer my question [now asked for the 3rd time]



Well because it does all transformers need springs any size just ask any florida trooper .:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> The best BBQ is gonna do for ya is give you a code article stating why these aren't required , nor is flexing into a xfmr , lol . I'd hate to think he knows the NEC as well as it seems , and if he does , I'm fairly certain he sleeps with it under his pillow ? I come here for my code questions . He's quicker than me finding in the book myself , lol !


He has not given all the info needed for us to do his homework for him.:laughing:

If I needed to do this myself I would, I would be able to for the same reason I know the NEC. I would look the info up. It ain't magic and I ain't special.:no:


My bet is that the unit is balanced left to right so you just have to deal with front to back. I would likely just use the percentage the coils are off center to figure the weight difference close enough.

Pipe seems to want it to decimal places when the springs likely come in broad ranges anyway. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Why does that 2500# transformer need springs externally?
> 
> It's not like it needs to combat inertia or some other type of movement.





piperunner said:


> Well because it does ...


:blink:
You really think thats the answer?




piperunner said:


> .....all transformers need springs any size just ask any florida trooper .:laughing:


Your creditability with me is slowly sinking.

That monster I posted did not have any external springs, dampers or other such apparatus.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

BBQ said:


> He has not given all the info needed for us to do his homework for him.:laughing:
> 
> If I needed to do this myself I would, I would be able to for the same reason I know the NEC. I would look the info up. It ain't magic and I ain't special.:no:
> 
> ...


Well BBQ we just want your thoughts on this i know its not the code 
but its complicated for a pipe guy to figure out bending conduit all day taking the bad bends to the dumpster all day .

Now what you said might work just percent of the coil front to back 
nothing else is need is that it bro see i knew i didnt need a florida trooper . :laughing:


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

piperunner said:


> Well because it does all transformers need springs any size just ask any florida trooper .:laughing:


Just a bit of humor Mr. Pipe Man.
Too many unknowns for a precise answer here.
Have a good day.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> He has not given all the info needed for us to do his homework for him.:laughing:
> 
> If I needed to do this myself I would, I would be able to for the same reason I know the NEC. I would look the info up. It ain't magic and I ain't special.:no:
> 
> ...


Come on Bob , we all know you're a little special , lol ! I never have my code book close enough to me when a good discussion comes up , but I can always rely on you for the answer . Thumbsup !


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> The best BBQ is gonna do for ya is give you a code article stating why these aren't required , nor is flexing into a xfmr , lol . I'd hate to think he knows the NEC as well as it seems , and if he does , I'm fairly certain he sleeps with it under his pillow ? I come here for my code questions . He's quicker than me finding in the book myself , lol !



With the iphone NEC app you can beat him every time:whistling2:...:laughing:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/nec-2011-edition/id625454379?mt=8


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## CoopElec (May 16, 2011)

*Isolation*

The ones I saw installed were on a frame with 4 good sized springs. Almost like the ones on a car. These were installed to prevent any chance of sound being able to be detected. If you know what I mean. Also connected with sealtite, no straps.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Just a bit of humor Mr. Pipe Man.
> Too many unknowns for a precise answer here.
> Have a good day.



Well same hear but no one ever sees that some are to thin skin i might change my name to Mr Spring .

Funny but we already have the answer but were waiting for some one to tell us how you dont need any weight you dont need any size to give the calculation format . This brings up springs and flex in another thread .


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

BBQ said:


> My bet is that the unit is balanced left to right so you just have to deal with front to back. I would likely just use the percentage the coils are off center to figure the weight difference close enough.


How do you know the enclosure's CoG is centered in that enclosure? For all you know, the core is off center to bring the CoG back to center of the enclosure.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Well I can tell you I'm not smart enough to calculate this, but man it seems so simple to just weigh it.

Sort of like that truck that got stuck under a bridge, and all the engineers were out there calculating how they were going to be able to lift the bridge and put it back when a kid listening in asked, "why don't you just let the air out of the tires?". 

Sometimes, simple is best.

If the engineer for the project won't do the calculations, I damn sure wouldn't attempt it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The reason I would not let Nick calculate it, and bring in an engineer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cesSRfXqS1Q#at=42:laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> The reason I would not let Nick calculate it, and bring in an engineer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cesSRfXqS1Q#at=42:laughing:


OMG!, no he did not say that!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OMG!, no he did not say that!


Where you been Bro? Wait I forgot, they didn't show that on ABC....


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well thats the guy to do the calculations thats our engineer !:laughing: OK i see it has to be done no one is going to try and every one thinks its easyer to weight them but you can not weight it that would not give you each corner weight just dead total weight . 

Just so you know SQ-D gives the center OG with a measurement from the back thats all they do bro.

Heres the formula which is simple math take the measurement of frame from the back of the transformer to the center O G line this is called the arm length or moment . 

Divide that number by the total front to back measurement of frame thats your percent of that distance back side .

Next measure the front frame to the center O G line called the arm or moment .

Divide that by the total front to back measurement thats the percent for the front. 

Take these two figures and multiple them by the total weight of the transformer make sure you round them off so there equal to 100 percent before you do your math . 

Now you think you have it done one more step thats the total back and front weight now divide that by two this gives you each side of the half weight of transformer of corners this is why we dont spend time picking up transformers math is easy and saves money . 

BBQ you had it but you said you needed more info i just wanted the format nothing more and i said that . Now theres the same question on another forum and the experts are thinking about it normally we get it tight and use adjustable springs to level perfect then we flex into trans .LOL


----------



## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Four load cells without using a summing card would give you exact corner weights, not calculated weights.


----------



## ohmontherange (May 7, 2008)

I believe that a variation of the indeterminate beam formula is what you are looking for. There are several variables that would need to be identified.

I agree with everyone else though - let the engineer do it.


----------



## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OMG!, no he did not say that!


A republican and thinking that an island would tip over ,LMFAO:lol:


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well thats the guy to do the calculations thats our engineer !:laughing: OK i see it has to be done no one is going to try and every one thinks its easyer to weight them but you can not weight it that would not give you each corner weight just dead total weight .
> 
> Just so you know SQ-D gives the center OG with a measurement from the back thats all they do bro.
> 
> ...


I thought you said you needed help figuring it out? Seems like you had this formula all along. You are now the equivalent of Cletis.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Where you been Bro? Wait I forgot, they didn't show that on ABC....


So should I say OUCH ? You sounds sarcastic.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> I thought you said you needed help figuring it out? Seems like you had this formula all along. You are now the equivalent of Cletis.


Well dont put me in his class bro you maybe in his class .
Yes i did i just wanted to see everyones input not yours you dont need springs or flex you just hard pipe .

Which is typical on this forum a few good points and mostly some confirmed they never had a clue or didnt want to understand the question or like yourself for what ever reason dont like what subject i may present. 

Because of flex maybe or springs . You dont like it when i tell you that 90 % of electrical contractors which are not on this forum use lots of flex that they dont hard pipe a transformer .
There are yes big transformers that are hard piped i agree we have done it but anything 500 kva and less is flex bro. This forum is not the only electricians in the world bro so what iam telling you is look around outside your window of ET .


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well thats the guy to do the calculations thats our engineer !:laughing: OK i see it has to be done no one is going to try and every one thinks its easyer to weight them but you can not weight it that would not give you each corner weight just dead total weight .
> 
> Just so you know SQ-D gives the center OG with a measurement from the back thats all they do bro.
> 
> ...



You just won The Balloon Knot of The Day Award.

Congratulations


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

ohmontherange said:


> I believe that a variation of the indeterminate beam formula is what you are looking for. There are several variables that would need to be identified.
> 
> I agree with everyone else though - let the engineer do it.


Ohm your the only one who hit it yes you are correct my way is not 100 % there is a more accurate way but we dont usally go that far we just get close enough theres a mechanical engineer that has a program at work that can do it but its not worth the time to do it for 1 lb . And its not his job its our job i will add this we also hang conduit on springs on some jobs 
for sound transmission and we must calculate the weight of conduit and wire in the runs this is a whole lot of fun when your talking about racks of conduit but we have a program for that so its easy just time and lots of spread sheets .


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

piperunner said:


> Well Celtic thats very impressive but were not rigging a transformer it has nothing to do with picking we already did that last week bro .
> 
> Thats why were here to find the answer to the question ?
> 
> ...


Who are you getting the springs from? Maybe they have the answer.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> Who are you getting the springs from? Maybe they have the answer.


Mason Industries they dont do it bro. like i said it ours were not talking 2 or 3 transformers were looking at 85 plus . Which includes conduit racks and buss duct and gutters & wireways which also get vibration hangers drops or wall mounted vibration isolators anything that has a transformer inside it or a relay anything that vibrates gets isolation . We just wanted to make a point bro that electrical work is not just running pipe and that most jobs are not what you see on this forum .

Have good 4 th bro :thumbup:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Sorry I missed your thread Pink. Now I'm just a lowly romex rat but if you know the exact location of the fulcrum you can measure the moment arms and figure out the load on each mount. Not really an electrical issue but I'm certain there aee a few people here that can help you out buddy. Don't necessarily need a geek.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

A simplified explanation of euclidean torque is force x distance.

What does physics have to do with gluing pipe tho?

I'll turn it around on you Figure the same weight and fulcrum point of whatever your setting but show it as a sphere.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

piperunner said:


> Mason Industries they dont do it bro. like i said it ours were not talking 2 or 3 transformers were looking at 85 plus . Which includes conduit racks and buss duct and gutters & wireways which also get vibration hangers drops or wall mounted vibration isolators anything that has a transformer inside it or a relay anything that vibrates gets isolation . We just wanted to make a point bro that electrical work is not just running pipe and that most jobs are not what you see on this forum .
> 
> Have good 4 th bro :thumbup:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Technically tho Pink your not calculating moment force because there is no inertia. Your statistically graphing distributed load. If you like I can get my niece to show you on facebook, she just graduated (middle school) and has a very clear understanding of statistical graphing. Of course you have to apply it to the mfg chart to select the isolator.


But again I'm just a romex rat I wouldn't know anything about gluing pipe.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Technically tho Pink your not calculating moment force because there is no inertia. Your statistically graphing distributed load. If you like I can get my niece to show you on facebook, she just graduated (middle school) and has a very clear understanding of statistical graphing. Of course you have to apply it to the mfg chart to select the isolator.
> 
> 
> But again I'm just a romex rat I wouldn't know anything about gluing pipe.



Well Gold you dont know the meaning a moment its a point or a distance measured to a arm or point from a center point like a steel beam in a structure moment connection . Thanks but stick with you romex and plaster board remods i didnt know you had a family sorry for them bro . Well i mean thanks for the warning bro .:laughing:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

piperunner said:


> Well Gold you dont know the meaning a moment its a point or a distance measured to a arm or point from a center point like a steel beam in a structure moment connection . Thanks but stick with you romex and plaster board remods i didnt know you had a family sorry for them bro . Well i mean thanks for the warning bro .:laughing:


lol Pink I know what your trying to say and i understand what you think it means but its not. There borrowed terms from euclidean physics that describe inertial forces and points of measure in time. Your application lacks two things necessary to be measured in moment points; inertia and time. But I know the trade uses them to simplify statistical graphing of distributed load so I'll just say your right buddy. You proved your intelligence here today sir. Your more then a glue sniffer.

Side note tho I was more impressed by the software you use to plan your jobs and the level of detail you put into that. Thats actually something worth bragging about. 

Rock on Pink! I got Romex to sling!


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

You guys are still missing the underlying message. 

I am the greatest electrician ever. 
No matter what you do, what I do is better and more difficult.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Why am I still subscribed to this thread. This makes my head hurt. 

Piperunner pics of these skyjacker "isolation" "movement" weight springs or it never happend. 

Also Googled "movement" weight. Lol. 









I cant make that up.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Why am I still subscribed to this thread. This makes my head hurt.
> 
> Piperunner pics of these skyjacker "isolation" "movement" weight springs or it never happend.
> 
> ...


According to the 2nd result, this thread is above average at 87#


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

walkerj said:


> You guys are still missing the underlying message.
> 
> I am the greatest electrician ever.
> No matter what you do, what I do is better and more difficult.


 I haven't missed it. But seeing how he's devoted hundreds of posts now to bragging about installing transformers, I don't think he'll ever get the point that he's not special.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Why am I still subscribed to this thread. This makes my head hurt.
> 
> Piperunner pics of these skyjacker "isolation" "movement" weight springs or it never happend.
> 
> ...


Try Moments of Inertia


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> Try Moments of Inertia


Nope. Not gonna. My transformers dont have inertia. They work off of 'lectricity.


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

We used moment arms in overhead door torsion spring theory. Described the ever changing lever that exists in a rotating drum acting on a lift cable.


Now. Can i haz cookie??


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

stuiec said:


> We used moment arms in overhead door torsion spring theory. Described the ever changing lever that exists in a rotating drum acting on a lift cable.
> 
> Now. Can i haz cookie??


You used physics to repair an overhead door? Oh wow.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Nope. Not gonna. My transformers dont have inertia. They work off of 'lectricity.


Yeah that was kinda my point. But when you size isolators the MFg have adapted the terms from paralell axis theory to explain the balance of forces. Its a balance of forces because the fulcrom isn't in the center. So the weight isn't evenly distributed. When the transformer kicks on the inductive kick it will cause a larger transformer to exert more force on one corner. So one (Or more) of the isolators has to be stiffer. To find the strength you find the torque and moment arms. The moment arms are the distance from the center to the anchor point. Those distances are graphed statistically and matched by class and weight to the mfg chart.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Please attach a MFG chart. I fail to understand why a transformer needs motor mounts.


----------



## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

why would a transformer need springs to sit on in the first place. i just thought they set it on a concrete pad then the lines were pulled too it. his is a first for me. question though why the springs?:001_huh::thumbup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

circuitman1 said:


> why would a transformer need springs to sit on in the first place. i just thought they set it on a concrete pad then the lines were pulled too it. his is a first for me. question though why the springs?:001_huh::thumbup:


Inductive Kick produces torque. Not much but on large transformers its enough to make it jump a little.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Please attach a MFG chart. I fail to understand why a transformer needs motor mounts.


I would suspect these to be pretty big transformers. Even then I'm not sure how much difference they make there own weight should counter that torque.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> Inductive Kick produces torque. Not much but on large transformers its enough to make it jump a little.


Are you telling me the phase relationships of the coils produce torque? Cause if you are torque can be calculated and measured. I say a transformer cannot produce measurable torque


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Are you telling me the phase relationships of the coils produce torque? Cause if you are torque can be calculated and measured. I say a transformer cannot produce measurable torque.


There you go. A challenge. 1000 gold pieces to the first one of you to cobble up a mag-lev sled to test this theory.


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Of course, it could be a seismic spec....


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

stuiec said:


> There you go. A challenge. 1000 gold pieces to the first one of you to cobble up a mag-lev sled to test this theory.


If one were to utilize those silly scales to determine the "movement" weight of each corner and energize said transformer I further contest the scale will not move.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> Are you telling me the phase relationships of the coils produce torque? Cause if you are torque can be calculated and measured. I say a transformer cannot produce measurable torque


I think that torque is created by the magnetic field around it. Weather or not its measurable I don't know. Even if it is I gotta assume the wieght of the unit would counteract any effect it would have. Putting it on isolators would probably amplify the effect. Especially the perfectly balanced isolators he is describing. 

No wonder he doesn't hard pipe them.


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

stuiec said:


> Of course, it could be a seismic spec....


Is there a possibility that there is anticipated vibration in the area due to process or other, that would interfere with the transformer? ie. create bubbles in an oil filled?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> If one were to utilize those silly scales to determine the "movement" weight of each corner and energize said transformer I further contest the scale will not move.


Depends how precise the scale is but there would definitely be a difference of force however small. you could probably conduct an experiment with a small inductor by attaching a rod to each corner and putting each one on a different scale.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Because I dont randomly pick on people and not back it up, I am doing some reading. Apparently the noise produced is vibration between the laminate in the core. This produces hum. This is a mechanical movement. Not enough to produce torque tho. 

Also one of the white papers seems to dictate the use of flex into the transformer to mitigate the hum. Isolation pads are suggested ase means to mitigate hum. Also putting the unit at the end of a hallway is suggested. 

I can't link these PDFs to the page. Sorry


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/guidelines-installing-transformers-part-1


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/guidelines-installing-transformers-part-2


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> If one were to utilize those silly scales to determine the "movement" weight of each corner and energize said transformer I further contest the scale will not move.


Nola you didn't have to do all that work, you coulda just said "Nah thats not right" I woulda went with it.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Try Moments of Inertia



Well you just made my point you said it doesnt move or have inertia or torque but it does gravity is a force which pulls on said frame bro .:thumbup:

Theres a constant movement down & up . Its off balance due to the weight its moving you cant see it with your eyes just like a filiment in a light blub which moves inside back a forth at 60 hz .
There is torque in two directions the springs condition this so the transformer is level on the pad and it does move constantly you cant see it with the human eye but the 120 cycle vibration of that transformer plus the movement between torque of front to back frame off center line of gravity and the earths pull on front and back its moving bro . The gravitiy itself makes it move 24/7 bro its call nature back and forth Just ask you middle school facebook buds .


Your eyes cant see freq you cant see 60 cycles you cant see 120 cycles and you cant see gravity its freq thats all around us and its moving everyday . But we can hear sound think pink .
Now go home and sleep it off.:laughing:


----------



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

walkerj said:


> You guys are still missing the underlying message.
> 
> I am the greatest electrician ever.
> No matter what you do, what I do is better and more difficult.


 
You forgot to say Bro....


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Well you just made my point you said it doesnt move or have inertia or torque but it does gravity is a force which pulls on said frame bro .:thumbup:
> 
> Theres a constant movement down & up . Its off balance due to the weight its moving you cant see it with your eyes just like a filiment in a light blub which moves inside back a forth at 60 hz .
> There is torque in two directions the springs condition this so the transformer is level on the pad and it does move constantly you cant see it with the human eye but the 120 cycle vibration of that transformer plus the movement between torque of front to back frame off center line of gravity and the earths pull on front and back its moving bro . The gravitiy itself makes it move 24/7 bro its call nature back and forth Just ask you middle school facebook buds .
> ...


Hmmm ? Correct me if I'm wrong , but aren't we all floating around on a constantly rotating sphere in our solar system ? I'd say if something ever causes the earth to go " off " it's axis , we're all pretty screwed regardless of isolation springs , lol !


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> Hmmm ? Correct me if I'm wrong , but aren't we all floating around on a constantly rotating sphere in our solar system ?


Ya know, now that you mention it, I am feeling a little dizzy. :laughing:


----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

I see two moment arms in the transformer scenario. Torque exists around the center of gravity, creating two moment arms. One blue and one green in the picture.


View attachment 26877


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I have a vague memory of backfeeding a small 1Ø transformer (like 500VA or something) that actually had such a high inrush it would move a little when it was energized.

If I had to guess, I'd bet that 3Ø coils are wound such that those forces are largely cancelled by the opposing cores, but I don't know.

Otherwise, I absolutely believe it could exert a measurable torque: You're putting ferrous metals in a strong magnetic field.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Ya know, now that you mention it, I am feeling a little dizzy. :laughing:


That's not due to the earth spinning , that's due to this thread , lol ! There was a " moment " that I thought this thread had a " point " ? That was before the slide rules , calculators , Euclidean geometry and rocket science came into play . It's like we're reformulating the recipe for ice at this point , lol ? I'm very big on letting the person who wants something that may not be required , to specify exactly what they want , rather than guessing or hoping I get it right . Let the engineers figure it out , meanwhile I'll be doing some easy " neck down " type electrical work , lol .


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Humming transformers have some value. In many universities and other large organizations, the office with the transformed is assigned to individuals who are benig encourage to retire.

EJPHI


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

EJPHI said:


> Humming transformers have some value. In many universities and other large organizations, the office with the transformed is assigned to individuals who are benig encourage to retire.
> 
> EJPHI


Prize to the first to answer. Why do transformers hum?

Time starts now!


----------



## alambre (Jan 29, 2012)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Prize to the first to answer. Why do transformers hum?
> 
> Time starts now!


Cause they cant sing


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Prize to the first to answer. Why do transformers hum?
> 
> Time starts now!


Because they do not know the words.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> I have a vague memory of backfeeding a small 1Ø transformer (like 500VA or something) that actually had such a high inrush it would move a little when it was energized.
> 
> If I had to guess, I'd bet that 3Ø coils are wound such that those forces are largely cancelled by the opposing cores, but I don't know.
> 
> Otherwise, I absolutely believe it could exert a measurable torque: You're putting ferrous metals in a strong magnetic field.


sounds like a solenoid


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

http://www.deicon.com/transformer_vibration_cont.html


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

alambre said:


> Cause they cant sing


You win..a rubber gromet is on it's way!


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I am wrong. Accelerometer data proves me wrong. 

Dammit. 

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/829/1/12585243_C39.pdf


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> You win..a rubber gromet is on it's way!


Oh man, a rubber grommet! I get the best stuff. 

JoeKP is going to be green with envy. :thumbup:


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Oh man, a rubber grommet! I get the best stuff.
> 
> JoeKP is going to be green with envy. :thumbup:


Time is money ...and rubber grommets:laughing:


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

*details*

Well i thought of you guys at work today this is the details if you read the 
notes check out what the engineer would like done with the 360 deg flex connection on the transformers . Now try this with pipe with 6 runs of 4" into a transformer on one side . This is why in two years i will retire and never look back this is the stuff we get to do just dont ask me why . :no:


Top one has a option if you dont coil the flex 360 deg you must install the entire run to it on isolation hangers .

The second detail if its on the first floor or ground level neoprene is fine no springs .

Ill skip the third its easy 

Now the bottom is all swbds all framed equipment gets a solid waffle pad under it not just the corners the whole frame work.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

So how are you going to strap it within 12" of the cabinet?


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

That is some pretty stupid **** right there. 

I say when you retire in two years you bludgeon that engineer with the full set of drawings and say your an expert at wasting money


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

walkerj said:


> That is some pretty stupid **** right there.
> 
> I say when you retire in two years you bludgeon that engineer with the full set of drawings and say your an expert at wasting money


Did you like the 360 deg loop we had to get the electrical inspector 
to inform the engineer that even if it would fit which it will not with 6 runs of 4 inch.

We need a box after the loop which would not physically 
fit in the room so we requested to enlarge all the electrical rooms .LOL :laughing:

This is what there like today pack it in tight no space and idiot designs.

But the best is yet to come all the electrical rooms have 2 inch sound board on the walls each panel or equipment has to be mounted off the wall with 1 1/2" beeline and sound board is on every wall floor to ceiling .

And you guys think iam nuts think again this is the **** i put up with ever day .


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Deep Cover said:


> So how are you going to strap it within 12" of the cabinet?


 Were not we are not doing it we only need option two install the total run with spring hangers and you dont have to do a 360 deg .

And we must flex into trans which is no option were i work .


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

piperunner said:


> .... this is the **** i put up with ever day .



Thanks, but keep it to yourself.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

stuiec said:


> I see two moment arms in the transformer scenario. Torque exists around the center of gravity, creating two moment arms. One blue and one green in the picture.
> 
> 
> View attachment 26877


4 assuming 4 isolators. 
1 from each isolator to the fulcrum point.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

piperunner said:


> Did you like the 360 deg loop we had to get the electrical inspector
> to inform the engineer that even if it would fit which it will not with 6 runs of 4 inch.
> 
> We need a box after the loop which would not physically
> ...


Where is this job being built , on too of the Sam Andreas fault , lol ? Good lord , this guy is shooting for over engineer of the year , wow ! Just think , it will all be a distant nightmare in 2 years , lol !


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I pray the federal government is footing the bill.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

nolabama said:


> I pray the federal government is footing the bill.


They should be . I think this structure will double as a bomb shelter for the Obama administration , lol !


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

nolabama said:


> I pray the federal government is footing the bill.


Oh wait , there's not enough money left from his last family vacation , lol ! I'm sure we'll all be paying for that one for years .


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Goldagain said:


> 4 assuming 4 isolators.
> 1 from each isolator to the fulcrum point.


You need a hobby , lol !


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I will say this much about the whole vibration thing. I have learned a lot. Mostly the guy that drew Piperunners print smokes the crack. But a bit was learned about the transformers thru all this. 

Btw all the literature I have found strongly suggests that we flex into transformers.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

nolabama said:


> I will say this much about the whole vibration thing. I have learned a lot. Mostly the guy that drew Piperunners print smokes the crack. But a bit was learned about the transformers thru all this.
> 
> Btw all the literature I have found strongly suggests that we flex into transformers.


I've been flexing into transformers for 20 years and never doubted the validity of that . I question the need for these isolation floating slabs that are spec'd . I'd love to see a controlled experiment with 2 of these . One bolted to housekeeping pad and one on the isolators . I'll bet the difference in sound transfer is negligible at best .


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> I've been flexing into transformers for 20 years and never doubted the validity of that . I question the need for these isolation floating slabs that are spec'd . I'd love to see a controlled experiment with 2 of these . One bolted to housekeeping pad and one on the isolators . I'll bet the difference in sound transfer is negligible at best .


Google it. I was floored at the number of white papers on this. I'm talking magnets attached to the coils with audioscopes and precentages of
Loads. Flat out stupid $hit.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I did a church where the dry trans was specified inside the building, in a room, behind the altar, I relocated it outside w/o springs.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> Google it. I was floored at the number of white papers on this. I'm talking magnets attached to the coils with audioscopes and precentages of
> Loads. Flat out stupid $hit.


If you are putting transformers in office buildings, libraries, etc it makes good sense to use isolators and flex. I have done jobs where the specs required isolators in the rods hanging the transformers and on the strut under the transformers so that it was double isolated by us and of course once more inside the unit by the factory. 

On the other hand in noisy environments it is a waste of time to install isolators and if there are no isolators it is a waste to use flex.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

nolabama said:


> Google it. I was floored at the number of white papers on this. I'm talking magnets attached to the coils with audioscopes and precentages of
> Loads. Flat out stupid $hit.



Well in specs at the end of the job we load up the building everything turned on at 100 % then with no one in the building except a team of sound techs .
They must drop a metal object from a certain point and with high tech audio equipment be able to hear it hit the ground with no other sound .

If theres the slightest back ground noise mix they locate the problem 
if its a electrical noise its in our contract to fix it per there instructions .


At our expense if we follow there specs they pay if we did not do it there way we lost the battle. 

So its in our best interest to follow there rules to the tee . Theres a DB sound schedule which shows the limits of sound in 
decibel levels which are acceptable in each case like public spaces or mechanical rooms elec rooms ect ect .

Now this is another great spec you can not run conduit just any were if you pass through a wall you must support it on both sides 
if its a sound rated wall you use flex on each side .


If a junction box is mounted to a sound rated wall its on isolators .

You can not just go through a wall it has to have a metal sleeve thats 2 inches larger then the outside diameter of conduit plus 2 inches 
of hydraulic cement around the outside of the sleeve but only after you fill 80 %of the inside around the conduit with rock wool and then fire proofing . If you miss one you chip it out .

If you forget to install one conduit say in the deck or wall you must use penetrating radar before you core drill . We can not hit rebar no exceptions .

funny part is when we ran our conduits in the decks or slabs & walls we were never aloud to touch or use the structural rebar .
We had to add our own support they made us tie our own rebar to there rebar but we could not use there rebar . Mostly we used chairs but its not 100% in most cases.

So basically conduit could not touch there rebar . My company just purchased a $35,000 dollar Hilti scanner plus we 
get to help out the plumbers and others at there expense . 

In a few months i will post photos of the transformers but were not even close to showing anything yet .:no:

I need a vacation soon


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

If this is the DPAC job then you will need to retire afterwards, because you will be crazy at the end of the job. I understand the sound proofing but some of those specs sound absurd. I'm glad I'm having to deal with that job.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Greg said:


> If this is the DPAC job then you will need to retire afterwards, because you will be crazy at the end of the job. I understand the sound proofing but some of those specs sound absurd. I'm glad I'm having to deal with that job.




Well hows it going old timer hows that government job doing listen ive been crazy for years . You know i cant wait to get away from this but 
we all have to no one can stop work today hopefully i wont die on the job .:laughing:

I did tell my crew if i go down dont call 911 until iam totally gone . lol


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Goldagain said:


> Technically tho Pink your not calculating moment force because there is no inertia. Your statistically graphing distributed load. If you like I can get my niece to show you on facebook, she just graduated (middle school) and has a very clear understanding of statistical graphing. Of course you have to apply it to the mfg chart to select the isolator.
> 
> 
> But again I'm just a romex rat I wouldn't know anything about gluing pipe.



Well read this romex rat 


Inertia is a force.
Inertia is a force which keeps stationary objects at rest and moving objects in motion at constant velocity.
Inertia is a force which brings all objects to a rest position.
All objects have inertia.
A more massive object has more inertia than a less massive object.
Fast-moving objects have more inertia than slow-moving objects.
An object would not have any inertia in a gravity-free environment (if there is such a place).
Inertia is the tendency of all objects to resist motion and ultimately stop.
In a gravity-free environment (should there be one), a person with a lot of inertia would have the same ability to make a turn as a person with a small amount of inertia.:laughing: Get a life and show this to your niece on facebook homie .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hi Pink Nick.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Why am I still subscribed to this debacle?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Hi Pink Nick.




Well hey Hack :thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

piperunner said:


> Well read this romex rat
> 
> 
> Inertia is a force.
> ...


Thanks for the education glue sniffer.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well hows it going old timer hows that government job doing listen ive been crazy for years . You know i cant wait to get away from this but
> we all have to no one can stop work today hopefully i wont die on the job .:laughing:
> 
> I did tell my crew if i go down dont call 911 until iam totally gone . lol


It's going good. I sent you my phone number, check your private messages.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well boys Square D sent this thought you might like to see it since no one could come up with a formula . Its the correct way from the factory. Now help this glue sniffer show me the four corner weight for that 500 kva .


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm confused, the note says the unit's COG is not in the center of the unit, but it looks like the drawing is showing it in the center of the unit. As best I can tell, front to back is 36" and the COG is 18" from the back which would make it in the center of the 36". 

What am I seeing incorrectly?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

....and that includes the 500 kva transformer.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm confused, the note says the unit's COG is not in the center of the unit, but it looks like the drawing is showing it in the center of the unit. As best I can tell, front to back is 36" and the COG is 18" from the back which would make it in the center of the 36".
> 
> What am I seeing incorrectly?


I agree, just divide the total weight by 4 to get weigt on each foot.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'm confused, the note says the unit's COG is not in the center of the unit, but it looks like the drawing is showing it in the center of the unit. As best I can tell, front to back is 36" and the COG is 18" from the back which would make it in the center of the 36".
> 
> What am I seeing incorrectly?


Well the center gravity on this transformer is centered but not all transformers have COG in the center . I guess its just equal on this one divide by two . 
So what iam looking at is equal corners i guess on the 500 kva now p is not clear to me id like to see someone do there calculation on a odd ball transformer do the math show me how it works . Use there own size and weight on any transformer . What is P


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Center of gravity does you no good for what you are trying to accomplish. 
You need center of mass


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well the center gravity on this transformer is centered but not all transformers have COG in the center . I guess its just equal on this one divide by two .
> So what iam looking at is equal corners i guess on the 500 kva now p is not clear to me id like to see someone do there calculation on a odd ball transformer do the math show me how it works . Use there own size and weight on any transformer . What is P


P is the % the COG (or mass as walkerj said) is offset from the center of the unit.

The formula as you posted is 1 minus the distance the COG is from the edge(G) divided by the center (d/2=center). So when you divide G by D/2 that gives you % that the COG is of the center (in distance from the edge), and when you subtract that from one, that gives you the % the COG is offset from the center.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Gravity is up/down. 

Mass is left/right. 

If that makes sense?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

walkerj said:


> Gravity is up/down.
> 
> Mass is left/right.
> 
> If that makes sense?


And the bearing of the high point is not were you think it is.. You have to shim the high point to raise the lowest point..

3 days of math and measuring to install one shim and balance a gun.
To verify this, you get the ship underway, install a bore sight down the gun barrel, climb into the breach and look thru the cross hairs in the sight..
Now while the ship is rolling, you have to "shoot a star" while a guy in the gun director shots the same star.. You both have to hit the cross hairs and yell "mark" as the star goes past.. Hopefully your both pointing at the same star..


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

piperunner said:


> id like to see someone do there calculation on a odd ball transformer do the math show me how it works .


OK, transformer has the center of "mass" offset to the back 2". Front to back is 36" so the center of the transformer is 18". Here are my calculations.

Total wt W 2400
Total depth	D/2 18
CoG depth from rear	(G) 16

Per unit variance front to rear	=	1-((G/(D/2))
1-(16/18)
1-.8889
0.1111

pW	=	(2400*.1111) = 266.64
pW/2 = 133.3

Front = W/4 - pW/2	
600-133.3
466.7

Rear = W/4 - pW/2
600+133.3
733.3

Did I pass the test? :thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK, transformer has the center of "mass" offset to the back 2". Front to back is 36" so the center of the transformer is 18". Here are my calculations.
> 
> Total wt W 2400
> Total depth D/2 18
> ...



Instructions unclear
Got head caught in ceiling fan


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Ha, the drawings show a side view and the COG is right down the middle
then the show the front view, same thing. Seeing that, I looked no further.

Logically, if you had a big floor jack and lifted half way between each leg or from the lifting eyes in each corner the transformer would lift straight up, perfectly balanced.

Which I said way back when. Surely, they observed how it lifted and this is just more trolling.

But, what kind of POS company would sell a 500 KVA transformer and not provide the actual weight on each foot? Or, do the math for the customer.


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