# 12/2 nm and 1/2 staple



## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

Inspector told me that I can only have one 12/2 nm cable under a 1/2 inch staple. For years I have been putting 2 underneath a 1/2 inch staple. How many 12/2 cables do you fellows put under a staple?
Happy Thanksgiving!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Haley said:


> Inspector told me that I can only have one 12/2 nm cable under a 1/2 inch staple. For years I have been putting 2 underneath a 1/2 inch staple. How many 12/2 cables do you fellows put under a staple?
> Happy Thanksgiving!


one or two depending on what brand NM staples you are using .,,

also make sure you get the manufacter listing sometime they will list the combo on the list.

If more than two NM cable then go with stacker staples.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Have to go by what the manufacturer spec.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have never had an inspector pull a staple out to see how long it is...

But the box will state how many cables can be secured.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Pull out the staple and put a tie wrap around the cable and the stud in front of the inspector.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Pull out the staple and put a tie wrap around the cable and the stud in front of the inspector.


Or even better an empty nm cable sheath tied into a knot and then tell the guy to go study his code book.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Heh heh heh you guys


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

We always put 2 cables per staple and have never had an inspector question it.


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## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

Same as what the other guys say. It needs to be listed for that use. If the box says you can do 2 then go for it. Save the box and show it to the inspector if he asks again.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Pull out the staple and put a tie wrap around the cable and the stud in front of the inspector.


You can use the staple as a tie wrap anchor and use the little tie wraps that nobody ever uses.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Simpson Electric said:


> Same as what the other guys say. It needs to be listed for that use. If the box says you can do 2 then go for it. Save the box and show it to the inspector if he asks again.



No listing required for securing or supporting non metallic cables. Only states cables shall be secured or supported by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as to not damage the cable at intervals not exceeding 4-1/2 feet and within 12 inches of junction boxes, outlet boxes , cabinets, and fittings.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Simpson Electric said:


> Same as what the other guys say. It needs to be listed for that use. If the box says you can do 2 then go for it. Save the box and show it to the inspector if he asks again.





macmikeman said:


> No listing required for securing or supporting non metallic cables. Only states cables shall be secured or supported by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings *designed* and installed so as to not damage the cable at intervals not exceeding 4-1/2 feet and within 12 inches of junction boxes, outlet boxes , cabinets, and fittings.


To me the way it's worded, no requirement for listing, but you are still required to use the thing the way the manufacturer *designed *it, you're limited to what the instructions indicate. 

So since if the staple's instructions say one or two, you can make the argument three is wrong; but cable ties don't come with instructions, so you can do anything you and the inspector agree is secure, supportive, and does not damage the cable.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What the guy above me said is most likely true.


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## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

splatz said:


> Simpson Electric said:
> 
> 
> > Same as what the other guys say. It needs to be listed for that use. If the box says you can do 2 then go for it. Save the box and show it to the inspector if he asks again.
> ...


I agree with this and when you have a practical inspector you can probably get away with any type of support as long as it meets the minimum code requirements.

However, if you don't have a practical inspector like the original post you may have a hard time. I have had a few inspectors call me on trivial things just because I used a part that wasn't listed for a specific use. 

Example: I did a kitchen remodel in a condo where everything needed to be installed in metal clad cable. I installed metal boxes and bonded the ground wire from the MC to the ground screw at the box. Inspector looked at EVERYTHING. He pulled out my ground bundle and told me this: "You need an approved pigtail to bond the grounds to your box." I asked what the violation was and he said: "The metal clad cable isn't listed to be used to bond the ground wire to the box." A fight ensued as I knew he was full of $&[email protected] but he insisted that he was right. We argued for 15 minutes but he couldn't cite a code section except for Article 100. Long story short he never returned to the job and the next inspector agreed there was nothing wrong with the job.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Simpson Electric said:


> I agree with this and when you have a practical inspector you can probably get away with any type of support as long as it meets the minimum code requirements.
> 
> However, if you don't have a practical inspector like the original post you may have a hard time. I have had a few inspectors call me on trivial things just because I used a part that wasn't listed for a specific use.
> 
> Example: I did a kitchen remodel in a condo where everything needed to be installed in metal clad cable. I installed metal boxes and bonded the ground wire from the MC to the ground screw at the box. Inspector looked at EVERYTHING. He pulled out my ground bundle and told me this: "You need an approved pigtail to bond the grounds to your box." I asked what the violation was and he said: "The metal clad cable isn't listed to be used to bond the ground wire to the box." A fight ensued as I knew he was full of $&[email protected] but he insisted that he was right. We argued for 15 minutes but he couldn't cite a code section except for Article 100. Long story short he never returned to the job and the next inspector agreed there was nothing wrong with the job.


There was an issue with this in another thread with some idiot just like your inspector.

The only time that an item needs to be listed is if the code specifically specifies the requirement.

The code says that, for example, conduit fittings need to be listed. So you can only use fittings that are listed for that purpose. But it does NOT say that conduit support needs to be listed, so you can use tie wire or a bent over nail. 

The code does not say that romex support needs to be listed, or ground tails.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Last week I used a bunch of ty-raps with the mounting holes to secure bundles of romex.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Last week I used a bunch of ty-raps with the mounting holes to secure bundles of romex.


I would do that more often but I worry about bundling issues with inspectors. I want to find a really cheap source for CJ's since they allow 6 romexes and they are separated enough to not be bundled. 

Yes, I know, you see.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I see


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I would do that more often but I worry about bundling issues with inspectors. I want to find a really cheap source for CJ's since they allow 6 romexes and they are separated enough to not be bundled.
> 
> Yes, I know, you see.


Bundling requirements do not start until 24" of bundling has occurred. Spread out Romex cables between supports and only a douche inspector like the one the op ran into can object to what you are doing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> i see


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Bundling requirements do not start until 24" of bundling has occurred. Spread out Romex cables between supports and only a douche inspector like the one the op ran into can object to what you are doing.


I don't know about that. Could you spread out the wires in just about any situation that would be considered bundling to get around the code?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I want to find a really cheap source for CJ's since they allow 6 romexes and they are separated enough to not be bundled.


Since they don't have to be listed, you could use perf strap and roll your own. (Or would that be unroll your own?) 

I have been using this stuff to hang all kinds of stuff for a few months now, real nice heavy stuff, which the klein 1104 cuts very well...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Thomas-...ated-Hanger-Strap-Case-of-10-16-262/300590603


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

splatz said:


> Since they don't have to be listed, you could use perf strap and roll your own. (Or would that be unroll your own?)
> 
> I have been using this stuff to hang all kinds of stuff for a few months now, real nice heavy stuff, which the klein 1104 cuts very well...
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Thomas-...ated-Hanger-Strap-Case-of-10-16-262/300590603


 I bought a roll yesterday and used it on a job that I'm not getting inspected. And it works great. its faster than stapling and I never dropped it or smacked my thumb with the hammer. I would like to use it more often but the inspector doesn't like it. I talked to him about and he said no.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

depends on the which staples you're using. Here in Massachusetts we have to use insulated staples with Romex and the prevalent brand available is blue plastic and the listing on the bucket says one cable 14-2,14-3 etc. So when you get that inspector that enforces that listing you have to use the longer RED ones which are the ones you must use for MC/AC


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

farmantenna said:


> depends on the which staples you're using. Here in Massachusetts we have to use insulated staples with Romex and the prevalent brand available is blue plastic and the listing on the bucket says one cable 14-2,14-3 etc. So when you get that inspector that enforces that listing you have to use the longer RED ones which are the ones you must use for MC/AC


We use the same blue insulated staples and always double stack. I've only heard an inspector challenge it once in 15 years.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Bundling requirements do not start until 24" of bundling has occurred. Spread out Romex cables between supports and only a douche inspector like the one the op ran into can object to what you are doing.


They are more and more common.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

btharmy2 said:


> They are more and more common.


I am finding the opposite. There has been a lot of turnover in my area from retirement of the old guys. The new guys are really up on the code , but are also pretty reasonable bunch. I find the new situation is like a breath of fresh air. I do the same nice work but don't get hassled at all any more and that is wonderful. The seventies and eighties and even in the nineties were the worst, inspectors who had never made it past the title page of the code book who would rely on urban myth and whatever they were taught by their forman as an apprentice is the only way they would accept. You had to fail repeatedly on inspections to learn each guys personal screwball ideas of an allowable install. I think the internet and electrical forums has had a very important and wonderful effect on education of code and know how, and for this I am thankful. Hats off to ET , Mike Holt, and the preceding forums that have passed away. They opened eyes up to what is really code and what is Balogna. er um... I mean Baloney


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I would be more than happy if every retired-failed-electrician-turned-inspector retired tomorrow. Most of them haven't picked up tools in decades and certainly don't have a clue about the code.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Haley said:


> Inspector told me that I can only have one 12/2 nm cable under a 1/2 inch staple. For years I have been putting 2 underneath a 1/2 inch staple. How many 12/2 cables do you fellows put under a staple?
> Happy Thanksgiving!


Did you ask for a code reference?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> I would be more than happy if every retired-failed-electrician-turned-inspector retired tomorrow. Most of them haven't picked up tools in decades and certainly don't have a clue about the code.


I had to provide documentation on a product We installed because the inspector never saw it before. He thought we put a female cord end on 12-2 romex and secured it to an island.

Link below:

http://www.sillites.com/newconstruction.php


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Chris1971 said:


> I had to provide documentation on a product We installed because the inspector never saw it before. He thought we put a female cord end on 12-2 romex and secured it to an island.
> 
> Link below:
> 
> http://www.sillites.com/newconstruction.php


I would think the same thing before I saw the Sillite. Your inspector did nothing wrong.

I keep cut sheets for all the products I use in my iPad. Even things like buttons connectors that list how many cables can be inserted.


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