# Hole heights in studs when roughing in.



## 480sparky

As far as my arms hang from my shoulders holding the drill.


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## B4T

About 36" off the floor is a comfortable height to hold the drill..


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## french connection!!

knee high .


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## Theriot

We don't drill side ways. We run our wire back up into the attic and than to the next plug. I use more wire but if I ever need to get to that wire its there and accessible. Just the other day the gc solid sheeted the ways. They used two inch nails and hit some of my wires. I was able to fish down a new wire even through the fire blocks.


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## nitro71

The inspector in my area has decided that holes secure the wire within 6" or 12" depending on the clamp. This is debatable in my opinion. I would check with your inspector.


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## B4T

nitro71 said:


> The inspector in my area has decided that holes secure the wire within 6" or 12" depending on the clamp. This is debatable in my opinion. I would check with your inspector.


The guy is wacked.. that is what staples are for.. :blink::blink:


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## Theriot

No staples are going to save u from a two inch nail that is poorly aimed


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## nitro71

B4T said:


> The guy is wacked.. that is what staples are for.. :blink::blink:


At least this was his decision for MC. I took it to mean that it applied to other wiring sections that are worded the same.


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## BurtiElectric

28 inches bc its the size of a level my father had when he started out. Now we have 2x4's cut 28" for drilling and 14" for recep boxes


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## nitro71

I just read the NM securing and supporting section. It's worded different than the MC section. 334.30(A) is clear that NM needs to be stapled/secured within 12" of the box.


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## backstay

24 inches


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## B W E

God man said:


> I was curious how high you all drill your holes above your receptacles and why? I was curious if you drilled it within a foot would you still need to secure the wire or would the hole count as the staple or strap?


I believe there is a distinction between "supported" and "secured" that requires a staple or strap within 12" of the box (secured) regardless of where the cable passes through bored holes (supported).


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## HARRY304E

Theriot said:


> No staples are going to save u from a two inch nail that is poorly aimed


That is what the nail plates are for.


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## HARRY304E

God man said:


> I was curious how high you all drill your holes above your receptacles and why? I was curious if you drilled it within a foot would you still need to secure the wire or would the hole count as the staple or strap?


Holding the drill in a comfortable position..


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## sbrn33

Theriot said:


> We don't drill side ways. We run our wire back up into the attic and than to the next plug. I use more wire but if I ever need to get to that wire its there and accessible. Just the other day the gc solid sheeted the ways. They used two inch nails and hit some of my wires. I was able to fish down a new wire even through the fire blocks.


That is just a great idea. Too bad you will never do a new house with that method


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## 480sparky

BurtiElectric said:


> 28 inches bc its the size of a level my father had when he started out. Now we have 2x4's cut 28" for drilling and 14" for recep boxes



Wait..... what? You _measure/mark _every stud you're going to drill a hole in?


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## sarness

HARRY304E said:


> That is what the nail plates are for.


Those don't work if their made in China.


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## HARRY304E

sarness said:


> Those don't work if their made in China.


True but they are required by Code..:laughing:


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## sbrn33

sarness said:


> Those don't work if their made in China.


What ?


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## nitro71

480sparky said:


> Wait..... what? You _measure/mark _every stud you're going to drill a hole in?


Actually I do most of the time. Just tape my sharpie to a stick or drill a piece of pvc to hold a sharpie then jaunt around the place swiping the studs.


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## HARRY304E

nitro71 said:


> Actually I do most of the time. Just tape my sharpie to a stick or drill a piece of pvc to hold a sharpie then jaunt around the place swiping the studs.


You could always snap a line....:whistling2:


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## sarness

sbrn33 said:


> What ?


There's a pic on here somewhere that a framer put nails through a hurricane tie, through the nail plate, and into the wires.


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## nitro71

HARRY304E said:


> You could always snap a line....:whistling2:


Way slower than using a stick and sharpie.


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## 480sparky

sarness said:


> There's a pic on here somewhere that a framer put nails through a hurricane tie, through the nail plate, and into the wires.


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## 480sparky

nitro71 said:


> Way slower than using a stick and sharpie.



And both methods a complete waste of time.


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## thoenew

Top of knee, receptacles at 16".


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## nitro71

480sparky said:


> And both methods a complete waste of time.


Maybe.. but it takes maybe 10 minutes to mark studs? Makes your rough look a lot better. Maybe you make it up by the wire pulling easier and faster.. Doubt it but anyways I like doing it.


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## 480sparky

nitro71 said:


> Maybe.. but it takes maybe 10 minutes to mark studs? Makes your rough look a lot better. Maybe you make it up by the wire pulling easier and faster.. Doubt it but anyways I like doing it.



I prefer to wire houses, not create works of art for the insulators to cover up.


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## leland

Half a million holes- 20 holes- drill where it won't break your back.

It's labor. Not rocket science.


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## captkirk

I use a boom drill when i do a full blown rough in.... and i try to use the plywood lines as a marker so the holes are all relativly level...


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## leland

captkirk said:


> I use a boom drill when i do a full blown rough in.... and i try to use the plywood lines as a marker so the holes are all relativly level...




Never mind.


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## captkirk

dont get me wrong, i dont turn it into an art project, but then again it doesnt look like a votech student did it..


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## BurtiElectric

480sparky said:


> Wait..... what? You _measure/mark _every stud you're going to drill a hole in?


Everyone!!! :thumbup:


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## B4T

sarness said:


> Those don't work if their made in China.


Nothing works when you have a air gun shooting a nail.. :no:


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## BurtiElectric

It doesnt take much more time to do the job that way. We rough in houses fast!! best part you could put your torpedo level on the romex in between any two studs :thumbsup:


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## B4T

BurtiElectric said:


> It doesnt take much more time to do the job that way. We rough in houses fast!! best part you could put your torpedo level on the romex in between any two studs :thumbsup:


It also makes it easier to pull wires when all the holes are in a straight line.. :thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> It also makes it easier to pull wires when all the holes are in a straight line.. :thumbsup:


Yes it does.........:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> Nothing works when you have a air gun shooting a nail.. :no:


Geeeeeeeez are they hanging Sheetrock with air Guns..:blink::laughing:


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## B4T

HARRY304E said:


> Geeeeeeeez are they hanging Sheetrock with air Guns..:blink::laughing:


Not drywall.. but the base and crown moldings.. one guy used a 2.5" finish nail and got my wires..


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## leland

BurtiElectric said:


> It doesnt take much more time to do the job that way. We rough in houses fast!! best part you could put your torpedo level on the romex in between any two studs  :thumbsup:



Why would you? Who cares? Does it look good?


Pride in your work is great- I do it- But leveling and plumbing NM in a rough !!!!!!!!?

Man!! Thats just weird. And if you can't come close enough that average joe won't notice..... You need a new career


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> Not drywall.. but the base and crown moldings.. one guy used a 2.5" finish nail and got my wires..


That's when it's time to break out the Chain saw...:laughing:


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## sarness

HARRY304E said:


> Geeeeeeeez are they hanging Sheetrock with air Guns..:blink::laughing:


They actually have one that shoots decking screws.

On this topic, I did come across a drywall screw in a bored hole with a nail plate. Was adding additional drops to a back to back and using the old wire as a pull, kept getting snagged and cuts all along the wire. Took a peek in the wall and could just see the screw going through the hole and the edge of the nail plate.


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## BurtiElectric

leland said:


> Why would you? Who cares? Does it look good?
> 
> 
> Pride in your work is great- I do it- But leveling and plumbing NM in a rough !!!!!!!!?
> 
> Man!! Thats just weird. And if you can't come close enough that average joe won't notice..... You need a new career


The level was a joke. This is not, I take pride in my work! If you dont thats your problem. :laughing:


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## 480sparky

Yeah, it only takes another 10 minutes to do this. It just takes another 15 minutes to do that. And it's only half an hour to mess with so-and-so. Next thing you know, you've wasted half a day.

And at the end of the job, you've spent 5-6 hours on 'making it look perfect' or some other reason that really isn't needed.

Running holes laterally through studs does not need to be perfectly straight. An experienced roper should be able to run the holes within an inch or two of each other with no issues. And that much variance ain't gonna make one bit of difference when pulling wire.

It's not like I'm just pushing the auger bit in all nilly-willy..... 18" for this stud, 27" for the next, then back to 14", then up to 20"......

I agree, you need to make it look good. But it don't need to be submitted to The Louvre.


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## leland

sarness said:


> They actually have one that shoots decking screws.
> 
> On this topic, I did come across a drywall screw in a bored hole with a nail plate. Was adding additional drops to a back to back and using the old wire as a pull, kept getting snagged and cuts all along the wire. Took a peek in the wall and could just see the screw going through the hole and the edge of the nail plate.



I almost picked on ---- from PA- for being like Ohio folks---
But I deleted it.

After this post- Yep- PA OHIO no dif.

How do you shoot a screw? Link Please.:confused1::confused1:

I have shot and screwed- but not at the same time.


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> Yeah, it only takes another 10 minutes to do this. It just takes another 15 minutes to do that. And it's only half an hour to mess with so-and-so. Next thing you know, you've wasted half a day.
> 
> And at the end of the job, you've spent 5-6 hours on 'making it look perfect' or some other reason that really isn't needed.
> 
> Running holes laterally through studs does not need to be perfectly straight. An experienced roper should be able to run the holes within an inch or two of each other with no issues. And that much variance ain't gonna make one bit of difference when pulling wire.
> 
> It's not like I'm just pushing the auger bit in all nilly-willy..... 18" for this stud, 27" for the next, then back to 14", then up to 20"......
> 
> I agree, you need to make it look good. But it don't need to be submitted to The Louvre.



I would like to put a stop watch on you and see how much time you waste during a (8) hour day..


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## 480sparky

B4T said:


> I would like to put a stop watch on you and see how much time you waste during a (8) hour day..


Doing what......... marking studs in order to drill them? :no:


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## sarness

leland said:


> I almost picked on ---- from PA- for being like Ohio folks---
> But I deleted it.
> 
> After this post- Yep- PA OHIO no dif.
> 
> How do you shoot a screw? Link Please.:confused1::confused1:
> 
> I have shot and screwed- but not at the same time.


I did a quick search, it's called a ballistic nail screw and actually loads into a framing gun like a regular nail.

http://www.911-nails.com/nailscrews.html

What's wrong with oHIo? :laughing:


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## macmikeman

Pardon me, I read zero previous posts in this thread, somebody must have pointed this out- Some places require a 22 inch long hurricane corner strap that is heavy duty as all hell. Due to this monster I never go below 24 no matter what cause the goons who frame jobs I end up on never remember them until the building inspector chews their asses out which is about 3 days into my rough in. If it isn't there I'm more likely to drill where it needs to be, so I guess its up to me every time to make an allowance for the tards and therefore I run wires up high , like 3 feet, but that is wasted cable.


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## sarness

The thing is is that you still get the people that miss the stud and hit the cable. Maybe all walls need to be 8" deep?

Seriously, remodeling my one room I found the wall was framed with 2x4's on their side. I still nailed the nm to the side, wasn't going to get 1-1/2" from the edge. Inspector said I should have spaced it away from the edge, gave his ok anyways.

You tell me though, how can you miss a board 3-1/2" wide? I ran the wires down anyways except for the light.


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## 480sparky

sarness said:


> The thing is is that you still get the people that miss the stud and hit the cable. Maybe all walls need to be 8" deep?..............


I do a lot of log homes..... trust me; when they drive 24" screws, it ain't gonna matter HOW thick your studs are.


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## niteshift

HARRY304E said:


> True but they are required by Code..:laughing:


 

What?:laughing:


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## erics37

Marking stud holes for drilling makes sense if you're running EMT into them. And even then, just use a damn laser level.

If you do it for romex, you're 'tarded.


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## Magnettica

The straighter you drill your holes the quicker you're able to get your cables through.


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## electricmanscott

HARRY304E said:


> That is what the nail plates are for.





sarness said:


> Those don't work if their made in China.





HARRY304E said:


> True but they are required by Code..:laughing:


Most holes don't require them. You aren't an inspector in a town northwest of Boston are you Harry? My buddy was told to nail plate every hole he drilled. 99% of which were not required.


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## electricmanscott

macmikeman said:


> Pardon me, I read zero previous posts in this thread,


You missed some real silliness. :whistling2:


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## B4T

480sparky said:


> I do a lot of log homes..... trust me; when they drive 24" screws, it ain't gonna matter HOW thick your studs are.


I think you make a lot of "log" homes.. :laughing:


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## HARRY304E

electricmanscott said:


> Most holes don't require them. You aren't an inspector in a town northwest of Boston are you Harry? My buddy was told to nail plate every hole he drilled. 99% of which were not required.


Nope...:laughing:

I think i know who you mean though

I'm roughing in a big addition up that way and they want all air tight boxes on the outside walls or surround them with spray foam because of some stupid Greenie Energy code they've adopted:no:


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## thoenew

HARRY304E said:


> Nope...:laughing:
> 
> I think i know who you mean though
> 
> I'm roughing in a big addition up that way and they want all air tight boxes on the outside walls or surround them with spray foam because of some stupid Greenie Energy code they've adopted:no:


Carpenter in our area goes through the house when were done wiring and seals all the holes in the boxes and all the ones in the top of the walls we drill.


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## captkirk

I think with experiance you just get good at drilling straight, you try to use things around you as markers to help, but if you veer off its not a big deal. 
Its a problem if you stop pull out the wire and redrill, then your just getting into OCDness and thats not good or making you money..


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## reddog552

*Romex in Joists*

I was in St. Louis the other day.Working for a contracter,I was working on a rehab,half of the wiring was 50 yrs. old. I was pulling out 2 wire romex and replacing it.We added a bunch more ckts.I pulled 2 new romex through a 1in. hole,He stops me said only 1 wire allowed in a hole here in town. Have anyone ever heard of this???


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## macmikeman

reddog552 said:


> I was in St. Louis the other day.Working for a contracter,I was working on a rehab,half of the wiring was 50 yrs. old. I was pulling out 2 wire romex and replacing it.We added a bunch more ckts.I pulled 2 new romex through a 1in. hole,He stops me said only 1 wire allowed in a hole here in town. Have anyone ever heard of this???


******** policy. Really ********.


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## BBQ

God man said:


> I was curious how high you all drill your holes above your receptacles and why? I was curious if you drilled it within a foot would you still need to secure the wire or would the hole count as the staple or strap?


19.5632"

Anyone that drills above that height is a moron and if the drill bellow that height they are an idiot.


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## 480sparky

B4T said:


> I think you make a lot of "log" homes.. :laughing:


How many drywallers do you know who use 24" screws to install rock?


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## Loosipher

I work in the greater st Louis area and we also do pro in the city. The one wire per hole rule is very real and very stupid. We did a 4 family rehab in downtown and all 4 panels were located next to eachoter in the basement. The supporting joists looked like Swiss cheese and I don't know how they justify 1 wire per hole being more beneficial than not having 40 holes in a 8 foot span of joist that runs the entire length of the building. And we pop a chalk line at 39 inches to go through studs in a new construction home. It only takes 5 minutes to mark the corners and roll out. It is way more beneficial to have the inspectors know that u do quality clean work on a daily basis and not have t nitpick u because they can tell when they walk in that our company did it and not some hacks. A little neatness goes along way with a lot of AHJs


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## kbatku

"One wire per hole" is an ancient hangover from the knob & tube days (when it made sense).


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## thegoldenboy

nitro71 said:


> I just read the NM securing and supporting section. It's worded different than the MC section. 334.30(A) is clear that NM needs to be stapled/secured within 12" of the box.


If you're using a non-metallic single gang that doesn't have an internal means to secure the cable, you need to staple within 8" of the box as per 314.17 (C) Exception. 
*
(C) Nonmetallic Boxes and Conduit Bodies.* Nonmetallic
boxes and conduit bodies shall be suitable for the lowest
temperature-rated conductor entering the box. Where nonmetallic
boxes and conduit bodies are used with messengersupported
wiring, open wiring on insulators, or concealed
knob-and-tube wiring, the conductors shall enter the box
through individual holes. Where flexible tubing is used to
enclose the conductors, the tubing shall extend from the last
insulating support to not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.) inside the
box and beyond any cable clamp. Where nonmetallicsheathed
cable or multiconductor Type UF cable is used,
the sheath shall extend not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.) inside
the box and beyond any cable clamp. In all instances, all
permitted wiring methods shall be secured to the boxes.
*
Exception:* Where nonmetallic-sheathed cable or multiconductor
Type UF cable is used with single gang boxes not
larger than a nominal size 57 mm × 100 mm (21⁄4 in.
× 4 in.) mounted in walls or ceilings, and where the cable
is fastened within 200 mm (8 in.) of the box measured along
the sheath and where the sheath extends through a cable
knockout not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.), securing the cable to
the box shall not be required. Multiple cable entries shall
be permitted in a single cable knockout opening.


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## electricmanscott

captkirk said:


> I think with experiance you just get good at drilling straight, you try to use things around you as markers to help, but if you veer off its not a big deal.
> Its a problem if you stop pull out the wire and redrill, then your just getting into OCDness and thats not good or making you money..


That's really the most logical answer given here.


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## Dennis Alwon

480sparky said:


> Wait..... what? You _measure/mark _every stud you're going to drill a hole in?


I know a guy that does that and in fact will drill attic joists rather than run the wire above where the roof and will meet. He measures then drills.

I also have done that in the ceiling when I have long runs thru joists. It makes pulling easier but I don't measure in the stud space.


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## crosport

The Canadian building code requires 2x6 on outside walls so makes it much easier to run wires and less prone to nail damage.Also a cable through a hole drilled with-in 12" of a box is considered supported and does not require a staple by C.E.C.


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## Theriot

One wire per hole. Is that code?


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## Theriot

How do you get wires to your panel than. We drill a few big holes and run to wire though them


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## trebgge68

One local municipality here only allows two wires per hole. Had to drill 15 sets of hole through 40 or 45 floor joists across a basement ceiling one time. 7/8" holes spaced 2" apart, what fiasco that was.


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## Island Electric

One pipe per hole:laughing:


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## erics37

Island Electric said:


> One pipe per hole:laughing:


Not always :brows:


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## electures

480sparky said:


> As far as my arms hang from my shoulders holding the drill.


 
Bingo! Same here. Hold drill against hip and step forward.


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## electures

thegoldenboy said:


> If you're using a non-metallic single gang that doesn't have an internal means to secure the cable, you need to staple within 8" of the box as per 314.17 (C) Exception.
> 
> *(C) Nonmetallic Boxes and Conduit Bodies.* Nonmetallic
> boxes and conduit bodies shall be suitable for the lowest
> temperature-rated conductor entering the box. Where nonmetallic
> boxes and conduit bodies are used with messengersupported
> wiring, open wiring on insulators, or concealed
> knob-and-tube wiring, the conductors shall enter the box
> through individual holes. Where flexible tubing is used to
> enclose the conductors, the tubing shall extend from the last
> insulating support to not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.) inside the
> box and beyond any cable clamp. Where nonmetallicsheathed
> cable or multiconductor Type UF cable is used,
> the sheath shall extend not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.) inside
> the box and beyond any cable clamp. In all instances, all
> permitted wiring methods shall be secured to the boxes.
> 
> *Exception:* Where nonmetallic-sheathed cable or multiconductor
> Type UF cable is used with single gang boxes not
> larger than a nominal size 57 mm × 100 mm (21⁄4 in.
> × 4 in.) mounted in walls or ceilings, and where the cable
> is fastened within 200 mm (8 in.) of the box measured along
> the sheath and where the sheath extends through a cable
> knockout not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.), securing the cable to
> the box shall not be required. Multiple cable entries shall
> be permitted in a single cable knockout opening.


Unless the hole is within 8" of the box. Then no staple is required.


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## thegoldenboy

electures said:


> Unless the hole is within 8" of the box. Then no staple is required.


I know that. See post #7, it's already been covered by the person I addressed. I saw no need to bring it up.


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## chicken steve

Gentlemen,

i think we might all agree romex jockey jobs are all about speed & efficacy

so a plan / box out /drill out / pull in may be an appreiciable order of events

that said, there'ds a dif bettween a reno job of say, 10 circuits _vs._ the mansions of 80 and up, and the consideration of critical paths

one method i use on the McMansions is a 48" 2x4 marked out in 12" marks _(art 800 applies now...)_

It's held flush to the bottom of 10 by floor joists, and butt to the outside sill plate, the marks are transfered to the floor joist

they are then drilled out with a 1.5 " self feed _(Milwakee or Dewalt)_ , via right angle drill

these are then a set of 4-6-8 perfectly lined up straight holed back to the panel area *_(they can thin out as they advance from it)_

note i have had to consult engineers for gluelam drill carnage



~CS~



 
_*(now i just need to add Mac's lube to this scenario) _


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## Vintage Sounds

I try to go for 4-5" above or below the box. Keeping the hole close to box height makes it nice and neat and I only need one staple per box location. Any time I can use a hole instead of a staple, I do. 

It's easy to drill reasonably level without a chalk line or whatever. I mean I'm sure it's nice to snap a line or set up a laser but I doubt my current employer would ever agree to that.


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## EIR

reddog552 said:


> I was in St. Louis the other day.Working for a contracter,I was working on a rehab,half of the wiring was 50 yrs. old. I was pulling out 2 wire romex and replacing it.We added a bunch more ckts.I pulled 2 new romex through a 1in. hole,He stops me said only 1 wire allowed in a hole here in town. Have anyone ever heard of this???


ft.smith ar is same way


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## Amish Electrician

I love that pic of the tie hanger nails going through the nail plates and into the wire.

I don't think those are 2x4's in the pic; I'm suspecting it's a mobile home. The wire looks funky too- not your usual romex.

Still, the picture does bring up a good point: pay attention to where you run your wires! It's not like the joist could have been put elsewhere.

Rockers have a 'nailing pattern' they have to follow. I don't know what it is, but maybe I should- so I can place my wires out of the most likely "target areas." An inch difference might really matter.

I resisted for a long time, but it does pay off to take the time to make your holes straight and in line. The wire pulls are so much easier, go so much faster. Of course, I spent decades running MC before I even say Romex the first time.

Running wires 'up' rather than 'across?' Now, there's an idea. That's what I do on 'pipe' jobs. Might have a problem with Romex going over joists. Still, keeping the wires flat to the wood does get them out of the way of the insulation guys. I'll have to think this one over a bit.

I also like using a block to set the devices 'dead on.' 

As for switches, I learned the hard way to LOOK AT THE WHOLE SET of drawings. Nothing like having your switch right on the wall/ wainscotting border to make a job look like amateur hour.


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## davew

Mostly it's whatever the height of my knee is, just like ol' papy taught me.


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## Service Call

davew said:


> Mostly it's whatever the height of my knee is, just like ol' papy taught me.


Ditto. Lay the hole hawg against the knee and go to town


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