# Some solar questions



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I've been doing a little research on solar installations and the electrical hookups. (Basically, I've just been watching YouTube videos.:laughing: So now I'm a pro, right? :jester

Couple questions here:

1) is a transfer switch not required? I haven't seen them put one up in any of the videos.

2) how many times are you required to set a disconnect, Twice? Once for the AC side and once for the DC side?

3) any other good videos you guys know of on solar jobs? Solartalk.com has some interesting stuff, but it seems like it's a bunch of home owners there, not electricians.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

A DC disco is required, as of 2014 a roof mount system needs a remote disco that shuts down the modules within 10 feet. On the AC side you need OCP(disconnect). There is also ground fault requirements for dwelling mounted systems. MH has a good solar code book.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> A DC disco is required, as of 2014 a roof mount system needs a remote disco that shuts down the modules within 10 feet. On the AC side you need OCP(disconnect). There is also ground fault requirements for dwelling mounted systems. MH has a good solar code book.


Backstay! Just the guy I needed to see!

I've got all kinds of questions & curiosity about solar installations, where the heck should I start??!!! YouTube has got some pretty decent stuff, but I'm looking for some reading or videos that cover the electrical part of the jobs.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

What about the transfer switch? Does this just backfeed into the incoming poco power? 

I would crap my pants the first time I turned a system on. Because in my mind, it would be like 2 different power sources bucking together.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> What about the transfer switch? Does this just backfeed into the incoming poco power?
> 
> I would crap my pants the first time I turned a system on. Because in my mind, it would be like 2 different power sources bucking together.


No transfer switches any more. The inverters now are made to a UL 1741 standard which stops them from feeding power when the grid is not present. It stops feeding of a dead grid or islanding. 

Check out AEE Solar, I think they have some stuff to look at and get their print catalog.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Some behind the panel stuff. Sorry about the tipped over picture. That is the AC disconnect, two breakers feeding a ML panel, one from each inverter(SMA). The inverters have DC disconnects built in. They also have GF protection. This then feeds a breaker at a panel next the a bi directional meter($400 from the PoCo).


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

What's the deal with the bonding for the track & panels?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> What's the deal with the bonding for the track & panels?


I put these between the panel and rails. Then run a bonding wire back to the inverter and the usual two ground rods.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> I put these between the panel and rails. Then run a bonding wire back to the inverter and the usual two ground rods.


What size ground wire?
Where do the inverters usually go?
Where does the communication wire tie in?
Where do you keep your wallet at night?

WHERE CAN I GO TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF???!!!!!!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> What size ground wire?
> Where do the inverters usually go?
> Where does the communication wire tie in?
> Where do you keep your wallet at night?
> ...


Ground wire? Which one? The Panels are line side stuff, so 250.102(C)(1), panels wires are #10 so that ground is #8. But if not run with the other cables or where subject to damage go to #6. I always use #6. Other wise the AC side of the inverter is normal.

Inverters can go out with the panels if they are rated or they go next to the service panel. 

What communication wire? 

My wallet sits right under my 45.

Northern Minnesota
I have three off grid systems going in in the next month. One off grid that I need to work up an estimate for. Two leads my supplier sent me that I haven't called yet. And one system that is in parts looking for someone to figure out how or even if it will work.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> Ground wire? Which one? The Panels are line side stuff, so 250.102(C)(1), panels wires are #10 so that ground is #8. But if not run with the other cables or where subject to damage go to #6. I always use #6. Other wise the AC side of the inverter is normal.
> 
> Inverters can go out with the panels if they are rated or they go next to the service panel.
> 
> ...


Several of the videos I've watched have had communication wire going between inverters to the solar box/plc/whatever it's called.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> Northern Minnesota
> I have three off grid systems going in in the next month. One off grid that I need to work up an estimate for. Two leads my supplier sent me that I haven't called yet. And one system that is in parts looking for someone to figure out how or even if it will work.


If I could find a contractor that was doing residential solar jobs around me, I would seriously consider trying to work out some type of sub contractor agreement with him to learn the installations. This is some pretty interesting stuff.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Several of the videos I've watched have had communication wire going between inverters to the solar box/plc/whatever it's called.


Outback uses a hub and talks between charge controllers, inverters and a control interface called a Mate.

http://www.outbackpower.com/outback-products/communications


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> If I could find a contractor that was doing residential solar jobs around me, I would seriously consider trying to work out some type of sub contractor agreement with him to learn the installations. This is some pretty interesting stuff.



I'd recommend it MH

We follow one of the local _'backstays_' around , which serves as an eyeopener, as well as a good 690 workout for us.

There's is a rather progressive trade, always something new

last week we saw a pedestal, 20 cells w/microinverters , the whole thing tracks, as well as evens out flat if the wind is over 30mph, _and get this_.....it'll articulate to dump snow if it accumulates on the cells

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> What size ground wire? Where do the inverters usually go? Where does the communication wire tie in? Where do you keep your wallet at night? WHERE CAN I GO TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF???!!!!!!


 you remind me more and more of an apprentice I had years ago . Sometimes , you can ask too any questions , lol ! I did commercial / grid tie , solar installations for the last contractor I worked for . Once you did a couple roof mount systems , and a large ground array or 2 ,there's not much mystery in how it works, or the components involved . Look online or get a book and start reading up on it . Much like anything in this field , it's different , but not rocket science . The off grid systems are definitely worth studying up on , because once it becomes illegal for power companies to monopolize how one gets their electricity,I see lots of folks making their own power .


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> you remind me more and more of an apprentice I had years ago . Sometimes , you can ask too any questions , lol ! I did commercial / grid tie , solar installations for the last contractor I worked for . Once you did a couple roof mount systems , and a large ground array or 2 ,there's not much mystery in how it works, or the components involved . Look online or get a book and start reading up on it . Much like anything in this field , it's different , but not rocket science . *The off grid systems are definitely worth studying up on , because once it becomes illegal for power companies to monopolize how one gets their electricity,I see lots of folks making their own power *.


Hopefully that's sooner than later! :thumbsup:

Looking towards the future here --- I've heard from several people about how this has really taken off in the sunny states, with customers who have large wallets, industrial & agricultural settings, places with unstable power systems, people wanting to be of the grid, and anywhere else that the incentives are high enough to make the math work. Sounds like loads of work to me!

I'm interested to see how deep the rabbit hole goes here.....


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Hopefully that's sooner than later! :thumbsup:
> 
> Looking towards the future here --- I've heard from several people about how this has really taken off in the sunny states, with customers who have large wallets, industrial & agricultural settings, places with unstable power systems, people wanting to be of the grid, and anywhere else that the incentives are high enough to make the math work. Sounds like loads of work to me!
> 
> I'm interested to see how deep the rabbit hole goes here.....


Sunny states huh, did you know that output climbs with decreasing temperature? That's why string sizing is dependent on the minimum and maximum temperatures of the location.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> Sunny states huh, did you know that output climbs with decreasing temperature? That's why string sizing is dependent on the minimum and maximum temperatures of the location.


Backstay, I don't know my head from my toes about the way solar works. Hopefully you don't get tired of answering my questions anytime soon.

I'm going through some of the reading at the solar forum, Mike holts YouTube videos, and some other stuff. This is pretty interesting.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

How are the incentives on off grid systems? I know they don't get the renewable energy credits here in NJ. What other incentives are lost going off grid?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

cabletie said:


> How are the incentives on off grid systems? I know they don't get the renewable energy credits here in NJ. What other incentives are lost going off grid?


The only incentive is if it's cheaper than running from the PoCo.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> Northern Minnesota
> I have three off grid systems going in in the next month. One off grid that I need to work up an estimate for. Two leads my supplier sent me that I haven't called yet. And one system that is in parts looking for someone to figure out how or even if it will work.


Do any of your customers have you install a generator hook up as part of the off grid installation?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Do any of your customers have you install a generator hook up as part of the off grid installation?


Yes, if you are off grid like me and live here all winter. It's cost prohibitive to build a large enough battery bank to bridge the cloudy stretches in the winter.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

backstay said:


> Yes, if you are off grid like me and live here all winter. It's cost prohibitive to build a large enough battery bank to bridge the cloudy stretches in the winter.


 so , in other words , you'll run on generator power , if the storage capacity is depleted on your solar and wind systems , as opposed to constructing the battery bank it would take to store enough off grid power for the long dark winter months ? Makes sense to me .


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> so , in other words , you'll run on generator power , if the storage capacity is depleted on your solar and wind systems , as opposed to constructing the battery bank it would take to store enough off grid power for the long dark winter months ? Makes sense to me .


On a normal winter my backup generator will run about ten times. It is propane powered and recharges the batteries in four to five hours. Wind is no good here because of the trees.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> On a normal winter my backup generator will run about ten times. It is propane powered and recharges the batteries in four to five hours. Wind is no good here because of the trees.


About how long can you go on a full charged set of batteries?

I'm assuming you cook and heat with propane also.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> About how long can you go on a full charged set of batteries?
> 
> I'm assuming you cook and heat with propane also.


About three days without any sun. That would be dark days, say rainy ones. Because you get some energy even when it's overcast and you can't see a shadow. I have a gas range for cooking, all gas appliances. The fridge is gas in the winter and electric in the summer(I have two). I do have two electric chest freezers in my garage. They of course don't run here in the winter because it's cold enough and summer I have a lot of power. I use about 7 kWh a day on average. Here are the charge controllers.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Good Work Backstay:thumbsup:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> I use about 7 kWh a day on average.


That's pretty impressive! 

I use about 30-40 kWh/day (no gas).


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That's pretty impressive!
> 
> I use about 30-40 kWh/day (no gas).


And you would be conservative as far as usage goes. Most households are using twice what you are. That's why we(the world) aren't going on solar power anytime soon.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here is a six panel, top of pole mount I'm working on today.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

backstay said:


> About three days without any sun. That would be dark days, say rainy ones. Because you get some energy even when it's overcast and you can't see a shadow. I have a gas range for cooking, all gas appliances. The fridge is gas in the winter and electric in the summer(I have two). I do have two electric chest freezers in my garage. They of course don't run here in the winter because it's cold enough and summer I have a lot of power. I use about 7 kWh a day on average. Here are the charge controllers.



Looks good. But for the love of god straighten out that emt connector or I will have to come up there and do it myself. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Looks good. But for the love of god straighten out that emt connector or I will have to come up there and do it myself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I know not of what you speak?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

backstay said:


> I know not of what you speak?



I have an ocd condition about connectors being square with the box. I'm working on it


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> I have an ocd condition about connectors being square with the box. I'm working on it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Maybe I can help.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

cabletie said:


> How are the incentives on off grid systems? I know they don't get the renewable energy credits here in NJ. What other incentives are lost going off grid?


It varies by location -- Poco -- State -- but for the most part -- last time I checked for my area -- off-the-grid qualifies you for ZERO tax credits and Poco rebates.

The 'system' figures that either you're a millionaire with a plot out in the sticks -- or is some anti-establishment kook.

Either way, no sugar for you.

&&&&

Pocos have NEVER had a monopoly on power generation. Their monopoly is on power distribution...

Which is quite the show stopper when you have to send power by wire outside your own property lines.

&&&&

My beef with PV power is:

1) Plenty of roof falls and roof damage in our (collective) future. The sole and only reason I don't have it installed over my roof: my Spanish tiles will leak like gravel should I make the attempt.

2) PV arrays should've ALWAYS been installed TVA/ BPA style (FDR style) out in the sticks -- the poverty zone -- where the weather and climate was ideal and the land was ultra cheap.

Such land is available for peanuts -- especially in the high deserts of NEW MEXICO.

It was never necessary to spread PV installations around the nation: New Mexico has more desert land suitable for PV systems than the entire nation can absorb.

A grid 100 miles on a side would power the entire Western Hemisphere -- if only power usage would stay the same.

Such systems should've been Federally financed [-- what do you think tax breaks are?] like the TVA, BPA at the lowest cost -- and installed at PREVAILING WAGES.

Neither of these policies have been adopted.

The New Mexico high deserts have virtually NO precipitation... not even clouds.(!)

No-one would be falling off a roof. No birds would be fried. Like TVA builds, the contractors could really get good at building to scale.

I can't see PV power ever being a big economic success until the above approach is used. Rooftops are just too difficult to work -- costs can never really get low enough to seriously displace conventional sources.

&&&&

In Germany, the Greens ( the ecology party founded by a gal out of Minneapolis (!)) have found that the inverter generated power from wind and sunlight has reached the point of saturation. It was destabilising the entire German national power grid -- the infinite bus just can take so much inverter power. Beyond that, it loses synchronization.

The result is that Siemens shut down their ENTIRE PV factory system -- taking a multi-billion dollar write-off.

Reality had had its say. Their order book dried up over night!

LIkewise, Siemens' competition shut their plants down, too. Within weeks. All players booked horrific losses. ( And many a career in EE was terminated, too.)

If PV was installed in New Mexico -- at prevailing wages -- it would net out with EMF billed at near rock-bottom rates... eventually almost as low as hydro-power.

(Which is solar power, second hand.)

Between the NEC / IBEW / NEMA players and the DC circuit -- I can't explain why such an obvious play got no traction.:blink:

&&&&

If my proposal ever gains traction -- may I suggest that it be combined with electrolysis of water -- to produce massive quantities of storable energy -- and perhaps re-generate motor fuels?

Like natural gas, hydrogen and oxygen from a massive system in New Mexico could be piped all across the continent.

Such gases could power electro-chemical plants directly with DC power. (Fuel cells are already tasked in this way.)

And such fuel cells would make for IDEAL peaking power -- without rotating inertia -- and with very snappy response times. 

All in all, very attractive to Pocos even right now.

The 'problem' with Pocos, at this time, is that politicians have discovered that (like cell phone companies) they offer a way to 'reach around' and grab more taxes and social control -- without appearing to do so to the voters/ proles.

In California this means $ 0.45 / kWHr in the summer for residential. NOT a typo.

{ This took extreme form in Greece: at one point Athens tried to get their own Poco to COLLECT INCOME TAXES -- via the electric meter. ( If you got behind the Poco was supposed to pull your meter.) This gambit blew up -- as both the Poco, its employees, and the general public would have none of it. But, hey, Athens tried. }


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

This is great stuff, so how can a contractor break into this kind of work if he's never done it before?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Panels on. One big array in NM would have to have massive power lines leaving it. Would be a huge target for crazys and what about the power needed after sunset?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

100x 100 = 10,000 square miles 

A daunting target for 'crazies.'

&&&&

Current PV arrays don't provide power at night...

&&&&

The use of electrolysis converts EMF into STORABLE gases. 

The current method of storing natural gas is in the very pipelines themselves.

Here and there, trivially sized high pressure tanks are located -- but the bulk of America's natural gas is stored by simply stuffing the very long distance pipelines. Their working pressures are lifted up to 4,000 PSI -- the entire length -- and then bled down to 1.000 PSI -- if necessary -- to supply demand.

I would imagine the exact same scheme would be used to store energy -- through the night -- and in epic amounts.

BTW, it's cheaper to pipe energy than it is to wire energy. (No voltage hazard, for one thing.) And a buried pipe uses up no surface real estate.

However, American is a LONG way from a PV powered economy. I actually don't expect that we'll ever transition to 100% solar.

Hydro-power will always be with us. 

Near as I can tell, the Amazon rain forest -- the eastern Andes slopes -- have enough hydro-potential to power the ENTIRE hemisphere -- and in ALL forms of energy.

Naturally, this staggering potential resource gets no buzz at all in the press.

The rainfall upon the Andes is second hand solar power collection... from all points east. 

The potential is so great that the figures look like misprints: staggering rainfall -- immense mountains -- rain year round. (!):thumbup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Mounting the inverter and charge controller. The enclosure is called an E Panel Plus by Midnite Solar. All the busses and most of the breakers are installed and prewired. I just had to install breakers and wire between the charge controller and the panel. Then mount the inverter and controller.


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## bjjohns (Jun 10, 2015)

MHElectric said:


> What size ground wire?
> Where do the inverters usually go?
> Where does the communication wire tie in?
> Where do you keep your wallet at night?
> ...


I'm a little late getting in here, but the folks over at HomePower, even though they aim for the DIY'rs, always have discussions about code.

Find them here http://www.homepower.com


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Telsa , Do you really think that PV Power can equal or even compete with Hydro Electric Power .

I see PV Power as most expensive way to go and an extreme polluter with the use of Battery Storage , and PV Cells do not last forever . Solar PV has its use , for me it might power sensors out in the field .

Hydro Power is the true Renewable power Source . Micro Hydro is for the small homestead / farm .



Pete


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Telsa , Do you really think that PV Power can equal or even compete with Hydro Electric Power .
> 
> I see PV Power as most expensive way to go and an extreme polluter with the use of Battery Storage , and PV Cells do not last forever . Solar PV has its use , for me it might power sensors out in the field .
> 
> ...


PV power kicks hydro power when you dont have a river. Batteries are recycled 95 percent. Solar panel last a long time, mine are 20 years old and will outlive me. I have lived with solar power and no utility power for over 2 decades. The problem I see is this all or nothing view. What works best in one location maybe not be so good in another. Wind power is great out on the Great Planes, and like most alternate forms on energy, is not "on" 24/7. You still need Oil, Gas or Nuclear for main stream western civilization.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

It's plain from the responses that "electrolysis" is conflated with hair removal at the local beautician. :laughing::no::laughing::no:

pure water + direct current electricity = hydrogen gas + oxygen gas

This reaction is reversed by fuel cells... and was used on Apollo -- with Apollo 13 having some troubles with its fuel system, BTW.

Google -- at this very moment -- is getting serious amounts of electric power from fuel cells on its Silicon Valley campus. This is new -- at least on the economics. It no longer takes a NASA budget and space flight to make fuel cells pencil out.

Further, fuel cells are ALREADY being used -- in grand style -- in electro-chemical manufactures. They produce DC and that's exactly what the factory needs -- to make plated copper cathodes, lye and chlorine out of salt brine, etc.

These processes use STAGGERING amounts of power. Something like 15% of all of the nation's power is consumed by electrochemical manufacturing... in a comparative handful of immense plants.

&&&&&&&

Like natural gas, both hydrogen gas and oxygen gas can be stored -- over night -- and for years at a time. Their energy density puts all batteries to shame.

The fact that they may not be as efficient as this or that electrochemical cell (battery) is irrelevant. There is no limit on the size of their storage and they don't need exotic materials.

When the raw energy is coming from sunlight, you can afford to 'waste' some of it.

&&&&&&&

The hydrogen gas -- at this time -- can't compete with natural gas. (aka methane)

But PV collection lends itself to small scale and remote locations, places that will never receive piped natural gas. 

Stored gases and their fuel cells are able to tolerate extreme temperatures -- way beyond anything a battery can put up with.

&&&&&&

I expect -- in the fullness of time -- that someone will wake up and tap Andes hydro-potential. It will prove to be the lowest cost (virtually eternal) energy source.

All attempts at fusion reactors will cease. It's a total dead end -- really a weapons research program in disguise.

The hydro-power from the Andes is so far away -- while immense -- that it will prove to require transmission via hydrogen and oxygen gases. 

This will prove to be cheaper than DC power lines -- while providing energy storage taking both night and weather out of the equation.

All of this will happen in the back half of this century, long after we are dead or ancient.

By that time, roof top solar will be regarded as a total folly, and entirely uneconomic. Just too dangerous to install, a hazard during house fires, and a chronic source of roof leaks and lawsuits.

All of the current activists (ECs) will -- at some point -- be hauled in to court along with the materials manufacturers -- all sued over water damages -- caused by apprentices and j-men cutting corners during the solar energy craze.

You know that such corners are being cut: look at the personalities of the players.:whistling2:


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## redseal14yrs (Jun 8, 2015)

> You know that such corners are being cut: look at the personalities of the players.:whistling2:


^ who the hell is this guy?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

backstay said:


> PV power kicks hydro power when you dont have a river...




So True .


I got down on tesla saying PV Power can equal the Hydro Power ... bla bla bla.



Pete


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## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

backstay said:


> Sunny states huh, did you know that output climbs with decreasing temperature? That's why string sizing is dependent on the minimum and maximum temperatures of the location.


String sizing? Trying to learn a bit more about solar myself.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

JDJ said:


> String sizing? Trying to learn a bit more about solar myself.


When you connect one solar panel to another in series, it's called a string. Grid tie inverter manufactures will have a program that you plug in your max temps(high & low) what panels you are using, how far away from the roof they are...ect. Then you get a range of options on how many panels in a string and how many string in parallel. Off grid charge controllers have similar requirements. Most are 150 volt max, but that is changing too. Twenty years ago you ran 12, 24, 36 or 48 volt strings. That was it. Now things are rated at 1000 volts DC.(some)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Batteries installed.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> Now things are rated at 1000 volts DC.(some)


Wouldn't that kick you into the over 600V wiring methods? I would think it would be more cost effective to keep it at 600V or less. Or is DC wiring different that AC (I believe some AC components may not have a DC rating but I would assume wiring methods are similar).


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

backstay said:


> Batteries installed.


Is that 2 sets in parallel of 4 batteries in series?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Wouldn't that kick you into the over 600V wiring methods? I would think it would be more cost effective to keep it at 600V or less. Or is DC wiring different that AC (I believe some AC components may not have a DC rating but I would assume wiring methods are similar).


It's below 1000 volts, the 600 volt ceiling went away, I'm not sure when. The industry has been going up in voltage since I started doing this 20 years ago. It's all about the amps.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Is that 2 sets in parallel of 4 batteries in series?


Yes, 6 volt batteries connected to produce 24 volts. Just wired the combiner at the array. Here's the charge controller working.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This thread is great. When I check it each morning I am reminded to go and turn on the clothes dryer, I have my wife onboard with no longer running it at night like she was always want to do. Our 28 panels run the dryer quite nicely with nary an amp coming thru the poco's meter that way. I cannot even imagine life without a pv system any longer, it has been a superb addition to my dwelling.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> This thread is great. When I check it each morning I am reminded to go and turn on the clothes dryer, I have my wife onboard with no longer running it at night like she was always want to do. Our 28 panels run the dryer quite nicely with nary an amp coming thru the poco's meter that way. I cannot even imagine life without a pv system any longer, it has been a superb addition to my dwelling.


Do you get net billing from the PoCo? Can you get money or only credits? 

Here's the pole. I wish the mount people would make a wiring trough on top of the main beam. It would make hiding the wiring much easier.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

The tools for making up the MC4 connectors from the panels.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> Do you get net billing from the PoCo? Can you get money or only credits?
> 
> Here's the pole. I wish the mount people would make a wiring trough on top of the main beam. It would make hiding the wiring much easier.


Credits only, and the poco's meters are tampered to produce wrong readings so credits are imaginary for most customers.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

pete87 said:


> Telsa , Do you really think that PV Power can equal or even compete with Hydro Electric Power .


I am not Telsa, but the answer is:
equal = never
compete = possibly

Hydro is obviously available at night. 
Solar, by definition is not available when the sun doesn't shine. 



pete87 said:


> I see PV Power as most expensive way to go and an extreme polluter with the use of Battery Storage , and PV Cells do not last forever . Solar PV has its use , for me it might* power sensors out in the field* .
> 
> Hydro Power is the true Renewable power Source . Micro Hydro is for the small homestead / farm .
> Pete


That's about it. Or complement field generators as in keeping standby batteries topped off and keeping small load powered up when the generator is not running. It's something highly lucrative to installers, but a waste of $ $ $ for everyone else. 

Marijuana growth is apparently a very high user of electricity with visible percentage on the national scale that possibly trumps PV solar generation. Obviously, carbon foot print offset will be generated by moving them out or into greenhouses. 




macmikeman said:


> Credits only, and the poco's meters are tampered to produce wrong readings so credits are imaginary for most customers.


Explain please.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

backstay said:


> It's below 1000 volts, the 600 volt ceiling went away, I'm not sure when. The industry has been going up in voltage since I started doing this 20 years ago. It's all about the amps.


I had to go back and look at this. 690.7(7) max voltage on a dwelling is 600 volts and non dwelling is 1000.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> This thread is great. When I check it each morning I am reminded to go and turn on the clothes dryer, I have my wife onboard with no longer running it at night like she was always want to do.  Our 28 panels run the dryer quite nicely with nary an amp coming thru the poco's meter that way. I cannot even imagine life without a pv system any longer, it has been a superb addition to my dwelling.


Do you have batteries for storage or are you on a net metering meter or ...?

What % of your electrical bill do you think you have saved because of the PV system?

How long do you think the payback is (when do you break even, or have you already broken even)? Did you get government subsidies to help defray the cost?

Pictures would be nice if you have some. Thanks if you do.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Do you have batteries for storage or are you on a net metering meter or ...?
> 
> What % of your electrical bill do you think you have saved because of the PV system?
> 
> ...



Net metering, no battery yet, tax breaks paid for it basically, and it saves me 90% of a typical electrical bill for my area. 

Pictures of my roof will be how Hax tracks my location down using Google maps...... :laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Pictures of my roof will be how Hax tracks my location down using Google maps...... :laughing:


:laughing:

I rescind my request.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Breathing a little life into this thread...

Has any of the experienced guys ever tried to convert an existing single phase to a three phase system?

I have a client that has an existing single phase array and an existing single phase service. They are upgrading their service to a three phase system and the local utility is adamant about not keeping the existing service for solar connection; they want the solar to produce 208 three phase.

The easiest solution seems to be to change out the existing micro inverters to 208 versions, but that is cost prohibitive; there are 50+ panel on the roof.

I have been looking at phase converters and have been in contact with NAPCES but still have a number of questions that can't seem to be answered fully; this situation seems to be new territory.

I would appreciate some advice if someone has some experience in converting single phase to three phase solar array for direct connection to the utility.

Cheers

John


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> Sunny states huh, did you know that output climbs with decreasing temperature? That's why string sizing is dependent on the minimum and maximum temperatures of the location.


True dat, but how many stupendously cloudy wintery days interfere with the yearly megawatt number?

Actually the ideal place is right where I am at due to the mostly temperate climate- not too hot, not too cold, just right..............


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Man, I forgot what a great thread this was. :thumbup: Very informative.



redseal14yrs said:


> This is great stuff, so how can a contractor break into this kind of work if he's never done it before?


This ^^^, is the million dollar question....


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Navyguy said:


> Breathing a little life into this thread...
> 
> Has any of the experienced guys ever tried to convert an existing single phase to a three phase system?
> 
> ...


I'm not up on the micros, but I would think they could be connected to make three phase like regular inverters. Or pull the micros and install a three phase inverter system. Outback makes a Radian Series that uses 3 inverters to produce 3 ph. 

Here's another pole mount off grid system going in.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Man, I forgot what a great thread this was. :thumbup: Very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> This ^^^, is the million dollar question....


I don't know what to tell you there. Find a "solar installer" that needs your license. 

Here's the equipment when I'm out in the middle nowhere.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

backstay said:


> Here is a six panel, top of pole mount I'm working on today.


Who does all the design work and print work for your projects like this for you? I'm looking for a supplier that might help me do a little bit of calculation work and set up package units PV panels ,inverters, etc all calculated out an shipped to me so I can just install.

With' my luck supplier with those services probably doesn't exist.

You know any suppliers that does this kind of service or can you recommend some decent suppliers?


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Man, I forgot what a great thread this was. :thumbup: Very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> This ^^^, is the million dollar question....



See if any of your local trade school or community college has sales and design courses for solar.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

backstay said:


> PV power kicks hydro power when you dont have a river. Batteries are recycled 95 percent. Solar panel last a long time, mine are 20 years old and will outlive me. I have lived with solar power and no utility power for over 2 decades. The problem I see is this all or nothing view. What works best in one location maybe not be so good in another. Wind power is great out on the Great Planes, and like most alternate forms on energy, is not "on" 24/7. You still need Oil, Gas or Nuclear for main stream western civilization.


I was talking to a battery Rep the other day an the manufacturers are working on recyclable electrolyte.


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## zenmurphy (Dec 2, 2012)

Navyguy said:


> Breathing a little life into this thread...
> 
> Has any of the experienced guys ever tried to convert an existing single phase to a three phase system?
> 
> ...


Hey John,

They sell three phase string inverters now that are pretty sweet. All the major players have their own model of string inverter. I personally prefer SMA for string inverters, but their smallest unit is probably a little too large for the installation you mentioned. They're generally cost effective. A unit to a power a typical 50 module array (without knowing module type/size) should only cost about $3k. 

Down side to this is that you would have to redo all the string wiring and add provisions to most likely upgrade the system for the current electrical code (AFCI, Rapid Disconnect, etc). Sounds like this is a sloped roof system, which would make replacing wiring more time consuming and expensive, but still for a ~50ish module system it might make sense.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks, I will look into that as well. I appreciate all leads.

Cheers

John


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