# Raceway or sleeve?



## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

Putting in a 100 amp sub panel and running 2/0 2/0 2/0 1. In the unfinished basement the cabel will run along a track but is then going to make a sweeping 90 through a joist into an attached garage. 1 1/2 inch conduit will start at the 1 1/2 inch go roughly 4 feet to another schedule 40, to a sub panel and will terminate there. The question is...is the conduit considered a sleeve or a raceway. My impression of the code is that the raceway must terminate on both ends versus just one. The goal of the schedule 40 is to provide a little protection. Inspector will have final say, but curious as to the sleeve being aloud to have 100% fill versus the raceway requiring 53% fill. In that case 2” conduit would be required....in addition, I tried to fill out my profile but I don’t see that as on option even under my user...is that PC specific our should I have that option on a mobile device?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

If it is attached at either end, it is a raceway. Also, if it is a quadplex type "mobilehome feeder" cable, you can't run it exposed. In the ground or conduit only.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Ca443 said:


> Putting in a 100 amp sub panel and running 2/0 2/0 2/0 1. In the unfinished basement the cabel will run along a track but is then going to make a sweeping 90 through a joist into an attached garage. 1 1/2 inch conduit will start at the 1 1/2 inch go roughly 4 feet to another schedule 40, to a sub panel and will terminate there. The question is...is the conduit considered a sleeve or a raceway. My impression of the code is that the raceway must terminate on both ends versus just one. The goal of the schedule 40 is to provide a little protection. Inspector will have final say, but curious as to the sleeve being aloud to have 100% fill versus the raceway requiring 53% fill. In that case 2” conduit would be required....in addition, I tried to fill out my profile but I don’t see that as on option even under my user...is that PC specific our should I have that option on a mobile device?


On your phone choose the desktop app & turn phone sideways.


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## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

Sorry auto correct screwed up initial post. It is 2/0 2/0 2/0 1 Aluminum SER. Looks like 2” is needed as 1 1/2 only allows for 3. Was trying to keep it tighter since it was only about a 8 foot run of conduit. And yes that wire is overkill both ends will have 3 feet of 1 1 1 3 Aluminum SER attached with butt connectors and heat tape.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

CoolWill said:


> If it is attached at *either *end, it is a raceway. Also, if it is a quadplex type "mobilehome feeder" cable, you can't run it exposed. In the ground or conduit only.


The word "either" should be unlawful.

Look it up.

It means "one of a pair" or "both of a pair". There's no way to know what the author is meaning.

I believe CoolWill means if it is attached at BOTH ends, it is a raceway, else it is a sleeve.


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## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

MikeFL said:


> The word "either" should be unlawful.
> 
> Look it up.
> 
> ...


That’s how I originally read it as well. I guess I have two options. Ask the inspector or just go with 2” conduit...either would be easy...I just want to know what the code is really stating. My thought was sleeve.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

A sleeve isn't attached to a box. A raceway is attached to at least one end (that is, either end).


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Ca443 said:


> Sorry auto correct screwed up initial post. It is 2/0 2/0 2/0 1 Aluminum SER. Looks like 2” is needed as 1 1/2 only allows for 3. Was trying to keep it tighter since it was only about a 8 foot run of conduit. *And yes that wire is overkill* both ends will have 3 feet of 1 1 1 3 Aluminum SER attached with butt connectors and heat tape.


Why the 2/0? 

Long run?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> A sleeve isn't attached to a box. A raceway is attached to at least one end (that is, either end).


I disagree. A sleeve is often attached at 1 end. A raceway must be completed (attached at both ends).


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I disagree. A sleeve is often attached at 1 end. A raceway must be completed (attached at both ends).


Maybe we just speak a different language, but what I would call a sleeve is something like a piece of PVC under a road to put other pipes through. Or a short section of EMT in a firewall to pass data cables through. But if you used a conduit to, say, transition from direct buried cable to above ground into a box, I'd call that a raceway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Maybe we just speak a different language, but what I would call a sleeve is something like a piece of PVC under a road to put other pipes through. Or a short section of EMT in a firewall to pass data cables through. But if you used a conduit to, say, transition from direct buried cable to above ground into a box, I'd call that a raceway.


I've always known it to be different. 

For example, the common practice of attaching a piece of EMT to a surface mounted box and running that EMT up the wall, then capping it off with a plastic bushing. That's a sleeve to protect the romex. It's not subject to the same requirements as a raceway would be.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I've always known it to be different.
> 
> For example, the common practice of attaching a piece of EMT to a surface mounted box and running that EMT up the wall, then capping it off with a plastic bushing. That's a sleeve to protect the romex. It's not subject to the same requirements as a raceway would be.


Well, you're just stupid then.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

CoolWill said:


> Maybe we just speak a different language, but what I would call a sleeve is something like a piece of PVC under a road to put other pipes through. Or a short section of EMT in a firewall to pass data cables through. But if you used a conduit to, say, transition from direct buried cable to above ground into a box, I'd call that a raceway.


It's common in residential to use pvc/conduit as a sleeve going in to a box with a male connector on one end and open on the other, especially in unfinished garages. I have NEVER seen or heard of this being an issue. The conduit is attached at one end to the device box and open at the other. You can call it whatever you want, but I have NEVER heard or seen an inspector call it anything but a sleeve for physical protection of the nm cable, and I've seen inspectors require this to be done in certain applications.

In OP's example, 99.99999999999999999999999% of inspectors are going to agree that it is there for physical protection of the SER and not a raceway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Well, you're just stupid then.


:sad::sad:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ca443 said:


> Putting in a 100 amp sub panel and running 2/0 2/0 2/0 1. In the unfinished basement the cabel will run along a track but is then going to make a sweeping 90 through a joist into an attached garage. 1 1/2 inch conduit will start at the 1 1/2 inch go roughly 4 feet to another schedule 40, to a sub panel and will terminate there. The question is...is the conduit considered a sleeve or a raceway. My impression of the code is that the raceway must terminate on both ends versus just one. The goal of the schedule 40 is to provide a little protection. Inspector will have final say, but curious as to the sleeve being aloud to have 100% fill versus the raceway requiring 53% fill. In that case 2” conduit would be required....in addition, I tried to fill out my profile but I don’t see that as on option even under my user...is that PC specific our should I have that option on a mobile device?


This is a sleeve. Anyone who says it's not a sleeve is a silly goose.

I sleeve most of my service entrances by running 2" PVC out of the bottom of the meter pan down into an LB. Then I run SE cable thru that down into the house and panel.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

svh19044 said:


> It's common in residential to use pvc/conduit as a sleeve going in to a box with a male connector on one end and open on the other, especially in unfinished garages. I have NEVER seen or heard of this being an issue. The conduit is attached at one end to the device box and open at the other. You can call it whatever you want, but I have NEVER heard or seen an inspector call it anything but a sleeve for physical protection of the nm cable, and I've seen inspectors require this to be done in certain applications.
> 
> In OP's example, 99.99999999999999999999999% of inspectors are going to agree that it is there for physical protection of the SER and not a raceway.


First off, to make a statement about what 99.99999999999999999999999% of inspectors would do implies that you have a master list of 100% of inspectors. Second, there are 23 nines after the decimal point, implying quadrillions of inspectors.

No chit it's for the physical protection of the cable. Kinda the main purpose of conduit. But there has to be some delineation of where a sleeve ends and a raceway begins. A sleeve can be stuffed to 100% fill. See how many of those quadrillions of inspectors would allow that beyond 6 or 12 inches.

All raceway are sleeves. But not all sleeves are raceways.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> This is a sleeve. Anyone who says it's not a sleeve is a silly goose.
> 
> I sleeve most of my service entrances by running 2" PVC out of the bottom of the meter pan down into an LB. Then I run SE cable thru that down into the house and panel.
> 
> View attachment 132302


Yes, that raceway is a sleeve. It's also a raceway. You should know this since we're the same person.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

CoolWill said:


> First off, to make a statement about what 99.99999999999999999999999% of inspectors would do implies that you have a master list of 100% of inspectors. Second, there are 23 nines after the decimal point, implying quadrillions of inspectors.
> 
> No chit it's for the physical protection of the cable. Kinda the main purpose of conduit. But there has to be some delineation of where a sleeve ends and a raceway begins. A sleeve can be stuffed to 100% fill. See how many of those quadrillions of inspectors would allow that beyond 6 or 12 inches.
> 
> All raceway are sleeves. But not all sleeves are raceways.


OP's example is a sleeve and clearly NOT a raceway, not sure what else to tell you. You can be upset over that fact, but it serves no purpose for your own well being. May your day get better.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> First off, to make a statement about what 99.99999999999999999999999% of inspectors would do implies that you have a master list of 100% of inspectors. Second, there are 23 nines after the decimal point, implying quadrillions of inspectors.
> 
> No chit it's for the physical protection of the cable. Kinda the main purpose of conduit. But there has to be some delineation of where a sleeve ends and a raceway begins. A sleeve can be stuffed to 100% fill. See how many of those quadrillions of inspectors would allow that beyond 6 or 12 inches.
> 
> All raceway are sleeves. But not all sleeves are raceways.


I disagree again. A raceway is continuous from from one enclosure/body to another. I'm not opening the code because you are the only person who I have ever seen disagree with this.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

svh19044 said:


> OP's example is a sleeve, not sure what else to tell you.


You don't have to tell me anything. I agree it's a sleeve, because all raceway are that. It's a sleeve that follows the rules of a raceway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If that was a raceway, then THHN could be used.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I disagree again. A raceway is continuous from from one enclosure/body to another. I'm not opening the code because you are the only person who I have ever seen disagree with this.


I'm not disagreeing per se. I'm might even agree if it suited my purposes to win an argument with an inspector. But there must be a point at which it is no longer a sleeve. I mean, if I run 500 feet of conduit, can I stuff it to 100% fill if I leave one end disconnected?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I'm not disagreeing per se. I'm might even agree if it suited my purposes to win an argument with an inspector. But there must be a point at which it is no longer a sleeve. I mean, if I run 500 feet of conduit, can I stuff it to 100% fill if I leave one end disconnected?


Yes.

The inspector might make up an arbitrary length to limit it to in his opinion. But as far as code, that would definitely not be a raceway, just a sleeve.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Yes.


You'll be getting off the CoolWill train at the next stop.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> You'll be getting off the CoolWill train at the next stop.


I got off weeks ago, I found me some new strange.

I edited my last post.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

CoolWill said:


> I'm not disagreeing per se. I'm might even agree if it suited my purposes to win an argument with an inspector.


Thanks for coming around.

There you go OP, unanimous agreement that what your're doing is no more than a simple sleeve.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I got off weeks ago, I found me some new strange.
> 
> I edited my last post.


Yeah, well f'k you and your sasquach :vs_mad:

I saw your edit. Still don't agree. I'm an electrical professional, after all.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

svh19044 said:


> Thanks for coming around.
> 
> There you go OP, unanimous agreement that what your're doing is no more than a simple sleeve.


If I come around, you'll never know. Just lights out. Don't make me toss you off the CoolWill train too.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I've always known it to be different.
> 
> For example, the common practice of attaching a piece of EMT to a surface mounted box and running that EMT up the wall, then capping it off with a plastic bushing. That's a sleeve to protect the romex. It's not subject to the same requirements as a raceway would be.


The Romex needs to be clamped to the box so that doesn’t work.

To me, a sleeve is open at both ends. It is used for mechanical protection, cable support or as a chase. There is no requirement for it to be electrically listed. It can be vac pipe or poly, whatever works.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Do you even have an EMT bender and single conductor in your van, Hack?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> The Romex needs to be clamped to the box so that doesn’t work.


 You're wrong and silly and need to leave.

It needs to be secured within 12" from entering the sleeve.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> Do you even have an EMT bender and single conductor in your van, Hack?


That's silly. Home Depot sells pre-made 90s and box offsets, for the discerning electrician.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You're wrong and silly and need to leave.
> 
> It needs to be secured within 12" from entering the sleeve.


Secured within 12” is a completely different rule than securing it to the box. You fail.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> That's silly. Home Depot sells pre-made 90s and box offsets, for the discerning electrician.


If you cut it in the middle and put in a coupling, it makes a nice offset.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> If you cut it in the middle and put in a coupling, it makes a nice offset.


Winning!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> Winning!


Hack has a jab saw that takes Sawzall blades and an M12 drill so it’s all good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

```

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99cents said:


> Secured within 12” is a completely different rule than securing it to the box. You fail.


 Romax needs to be secured within 12 inches of entering the sleeve. The sheath needs to remain for quarter-inch. The Romax does not need to be clamped to the box.

I am not talking about running Romax into a box through a KO. I have no idea why you’re getting involved in American code and making yourself look even more foolish than you usually do. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Go troll another thread.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Romax needs to be secured within 12 inches of entering the sleeve. The sheath needs to remain for quarter-inch. The Romax does not need to be clamped to the box.
> ...


Are the clamps in a Romex box there for decoration?

For the amount of time you spend figuring out short cuts, why not just do it right? You make shockdoc look like a purist.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Are the clamps in a Romex box there for decoration?
> 
> For the amount of time you spend figuring out short cuts, why not just do it right? You make shockdoc look like a purist.


 Dude, you’re an idiot. The existence of the clamps in a electrical box does not mean you have to use them. We often use the knockouts without using the internal clamps in boxes that have them. We are talking about running a sleeve into the box. Of course you don’t use the clamps.

Why are you arguing with me about American code? The posts you made in this thread prove that you don’t have a clue what you were talking about

And as far as me doing it right, using a sleeve to protect Romax is a better way to do it you mouth breather. This isnt about me, this is about whether a conduit attached to a box is a sleeve or not. You’re just trolling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents, If you keep this up I’m going to remove your **** ass from this form


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> 99cents, If you keep this up I’m going to remove your **** ass from this form
> 
> 
> View attachment 132310


Hax,
You're in rare form using the MH infograph. Congrats.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Hax,
> You're in rare form using the MH infograph. Congrats.


Well I tried explaining to him, but he is too stupid to realize how wrong he is and how much of a clown he is showing himself to be.

He keeps following me to every thread to sh1t on what was otherwise a good code discussion.


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## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

I guess I know understand why I wasn’t sure about this and it could be conceived either way. I will just splice some 1 1 1 3 onto it and run that though the conduit. that way it is by code either way.

The reason I am using 2/0 2/0 2/0 1 is because this is for a friend and they already had the wire. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needed. It is a short run and no real pull through conduit.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

Ca443 said:


> I guess I know understand why I wasn’t sure about this and it could be conceived either way. I will just splice some 1 1 1 3 onto it and run that though the conduit. that way it is by code either way.
> 
> The reason I am using 2/0 2/0 2/0 1 is because this is for a friend and they already had the wire. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needed. It is a short run and no real pull through conduit.


When in doubt, make things more complicated!


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

svh19044 said:


> When in doubt, make things more complicated!


In true American spirit!


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## Ca443 (Feb 11, 2019)

svh19044 said:


> When in doubt, make things more complicated!


Ha! Ya ☝


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

> 300.12 Mechanical Continuity — Raceways and Cables. Metal or nonmetallic raceways, cable armors, and cable sheaths *shall be continuous between cabinets, boxes*, fittings, or other enclosures or outlets.
> 
> Exception No. 1: *Short* sections of raceways used to provide support or protection of cable assemblies from physical damage shall not be required to be mechanically continuous.
> 
> ...


The first bolded part could be taken two ways: 

* In the sense that if you run a raceway, it must be continuous between fittings / boxes. 

or, 

* In the sense that if you don't make it continuous, it's not a raceway. 

If it was meant in the second sense, the exception wouldn't make sense, it wouldn't be necessary. 

The word "short" obviously makes the exception somewhat ambiguous. 

You might be able to make the argument that if the instructions for the listed box and / or listed fitting provide for connections to raceways but not sleeves, you would be using it in violation of its listing by using it to attach a sleeve to a box; you must make it continuous to a box or fitting at the other end.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> 99cents, If you keep this up I’m going to remove your **** ass from this form
> 
> 
> View attachment 132310


You win this round.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

The exception in 300.18 reads as follows:

Short sections of raceways used to contain conductors or cable assemblies for protection from physical damage shall not be required to be installed complete between outlet, junction, or splicing points.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

It's a sleeve FFS!


Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> For the amount of time you spend figuring out short cuts, why not just do it right? You make shockdoc look like a purist.



:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


I remember him, the Plumrician!


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> 99cents, If you keep this up I�m going to remove your **** ass from this form
> 
> 
> View attachment 132310



Who better to judge a **** then an expert on them


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Not only am I in his signature, but he is following me around from thread to thread :vs_OMG:


Thank you for brightening up my morning :biggrin:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Not only am I in his signature, but he is following me around from thread to thread :vs_OMG:
> 
> 
> Thank you for brightening up my morning :biggrin:


Well .... we all have to be an expert at something. I'm an expert at electricity. You are an expert at....... :shifty:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

:brows:

Looks like I’m getting two cases of wet wipes this month. Keep it up :biggrin:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> :brows:
> 
> Looks like I’m getting two cases of wet wipes this month. Keep it up :biggrin:


You're going to need them when I get done with you. Maybe even a shower.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> You're going to need them when I get done with you. Maybe even a shower.


If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that sounds a little gay.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that sounds a little gay.


It's gonna be sooooo gay. Violently gay.


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