# Metal siding...bonded to ground...or not



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> What are your ideas of bonding/grounding the metal siding of a building? Is it important...or insignificant...or necessary?


Depends on the atmosphere if you ask me. Explosive environment I would recommend it. Regular old horse barn, not so much.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

if its 5ft from a pool!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Grounding/bonding metal siding*



sparks134 said:


> if its 5ft from a pool!


Possibly correct, but take away the pool situation. What then?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

check your code book 250.104 C


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Metal siding on a metal structure is generally grounded by default. Aluminum siding IMO and I have been told there are studies by the Aluminum Association showed it a waste as Aluminum oxidizes so fast you would need to bond every piece. If this was a concern I would think the vertical corner pieces would be designed to bond all horizontal pieces.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

rewire said:


> check your code book 250.104 C


How is structural metal and metal siding the same thing?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

It's not.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> It's not.


But O great and wise Paw Paw of the Ozarks told me to read my code book and I don't understand why he lead me wrong


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

It tells specifically that you don't have to bond aluminum siding in Mike Holt's book. It says that structural steel can be used as an electrode or it must be bonded to the ge system.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

nolabama said:


> But O great and wise Paw Paw of the Ozarks told me to read my code book and I don't understand why he lead me wrong


 I led you to the code section that deals with structural metal interconnected to form a metal building frame. :no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

IMO Bonding the siding is a complete waste of time and money.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rewire said:


> I led you to the code section that deals with structural metal interconnected to form a metal building frame. :no:


 
That's not tin,,,that's a frame:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's not tin,,,that's a frame:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


 Go easy on hitting your head on that wall you are going to get a headache.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

I was responding to Riveter, metal siding of a building , 
i gave him a code reference that I thought would help with his question and for some reason I get attacked :bangin:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rewire said:


> I was responding to Riveter, metal siding of a building ,
> i gave him a code reference that I thought would help with his question and for some reason I get attacked :bangin:


 Give out some cheese and everything will be ok.:thumbsup: And it looks like one of your eye balls is loose.:jester:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Give out some cheese and everything will be ok.:thumbsup: And it looks like one of your eye balls is loose.:jester:


 I'll supply the cheese they bring the whine


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

brian john said:


> Metal siding on a metal structure is generally grounded by default. Aluminum siding IMO and I have been told there are studies by the Aluminum Association showed it a waste as Aluminum oxidizes so fast you would need to bond every piece. If this was a concern I would think the vertical corner pieces would be designed to bond all horizontal pieces.


What he said times two. When you screw a metal screw in the siding and screw it to the structural steel Thats bonding.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bonding Siding*



brian john said:


> Metal siding on a metal structure is generally grounded by default. Aluminum siding IMO and I have been told there are studies by the Aluminum Association showed it a waste as Aluminum oxidizes so fast you would need to bond every piece. If this was a concern I would think the vertical corner pieces would be designed to bond all horizontal pieces.


Brian John, you may have something to patent. Bonding corners..The only DOG I have in this fight is the fact that I discovered a residence in which the entire metal siding was energized by accident by improperly installing the siding against the service conductors.
The siding on a house is "not likely" to be energized and most probably not required to be bonded. I'm just saying...


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## Kilowatt120 (Nov 11, 2009)

Metal siding is bonded to structural steel via the screws, when you bond to structural steel, you have then also bonded your siding. I had an application one time where I was installing a lightening protection system where I had to bond all gutters, and metal eves to the system.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Brian John, you may have something to patent. Bonding corners..The only DOG I have in this fight is the fact that I discovered a residence in which the entire metal siding was energized by accident by improperly installing the siding against the service conductors.
> The siding on a house is "not likely" to be energized and most probably not required to be bonded. I'm just saying...


Utility buildings typically have steel siding attached to a steel frame. Residences do not. Steel siding on a residence is typically nailed to a wood substrate. If you nail that metal siding over service conductors you will obviously have a problem - See 110.12.

250.104(C) specifically refers to an interconnected metal building frame. If the residence has this construction, I would say that 250.104(C) applies.

If it's a manufactured building, then 545.11 applies, which references 250 parts V, VI, and VII.

In general, metal siding (as installed on residences) is not considered "structural". It is a weather-proofing material, just like shingles.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Brian John, you may have something to patent. Bonding corners..The only DOG I have in this fight is the fact that I discovered a residence in which the entire metal siding was energized by accident by improperly installing the siding against the service conductors.
> The siding on a house is "not likely" to be energized and most probably not required to be bonded. I'm just saying...


 
I went to a 60X100 wooden pole, wooden framed, pig stall building on a farm. The entire building was energized. It was shocking pigs and humans. Some bozo drilled a hole through the tin and stuck uf through it with no bushing. The entire tin surface was energized.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bonding siding*



mcclary's electrical said:


> I went to a 60X100 wooden pole, wooden framed, pig stall building on a farm. The entire building was energized. It was shocking pigs and humans. Some bozo drilled a hole through the tin and stuck uf through it with no bushing. The entire tin surface was energized.


Same scenario. I wonder how long it will be untill it is required to be BONDED?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Same scenario. I wonder how long it will be untill it is required to be BONDED?


 

Since I saw that on the farm, any time I'm in a similar situation, I bond the tin. I did a service on a shop. Metal tin, wood frame, wooden poles. My service was mounted on plywood. I bonded the tin. It only took 2' of #6 solid, and 5 minutes. Why not?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Since I saw that on the farm, any time I'm in a similar situation, I bond the tin. I did a service on a shop. Metal tin, wood frame, wooden poles. My service was mounted on plywood. I bonded the tin. It only took 2' of #6 solid, and 5 minutes. Why not?


 
As long as the bond is reliably carried through the separate sheets/panels, that would be a nice way to insure safety. But if the service and related wiring is installed in accordance with NEC requirements in the first place, then it wouldn't really be necessary.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bonding siding*



mcclary's electrical said:


> Since I saw that on the farm, any time I'm in a similar situation, I bond the tin. I did a service on a shop. Metal tin, wood frame, wooden poles. My service was mounted on plywood. I bonded the tin. It only took 2' of #6 solid, and 5 minutes. Why not?


That is what I think I would do,, as well. But, as someone mentioned, the oxidation build up may cause the individual sections to be less conductive. What next?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> That is what I think I wood do,, as well. But, as someone mentioned, the oxidation build up may cause the individual sections to be less conductive. What next?


Custom bond each sheet to the next with a metal strap/conductor and NoLOX. Or specially design the interlocking sheets to maintain an electrical bond. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> That is what I think I wood do,, as well. But, as someone mentioned, the oxidation build up may cause the individual sections to be less conductive. What next?


 

The threaded connections at each sheet metal screw are ensuring continuity through each sheet, not the sheets just touching together. The screws threaded into metal at each point will unsure that a bond applied at one single point, effectively bonds the entire metal structure. IMO, also, someone stated that if the service is installed properly it would not be necassary, but around here, your GEC does not enter the meter base. So,,,,if the meter is screwed to tin, your service screwed to plywood, your GEC leaves building in PVC, with only one rec. mounted under it on the wood, the tin is isolated from the service. If it became energized, it would not trip anything.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Bonding metal siding*



mcclary's electrical said:


> The threaded connections at each sheet metal screw are ensuring continuity through each sheet, not the sheets just touching together. The screws threaded into metal at each point will unsure that a bond applied at one single point, effectively bonds the entire metal structure. IMO, also, someone stated that if the service is installed properly it would not be necassary, but around here, your GEC does not enter the meter base. So,,,,if the meter is screwed to tin, your service screwed to plywood, your GEC leaves building in PVC, with only one rec. mounted under it on the wood, the tin is isolated from the service. If it became energized, it would not trip anything.


I believe that you are right...And I think that this is a serious situation. On the house I originally spoke about it would have been just a matter of time that a barefoot child would've walked by there and leaned against it.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The threaded connections at each sheet metal screw are ensuring continuity through each sheet, not the sheets just touching together. The screws threaded into metal at each point will unsure that a bond applied at one single point, effectively bonds the entire metal structure. IMO, also, someone stated that if the service is installed properly it would not be necassary, but around here, your GEC does not enter the meter base. So,,,,if the meter is screwed to tin, your service screwed to plywood, your GEC leaves building in PVC, with only one rec. mounted under it on the wood, the tin is isolated from the service. If it became energized, it would not trip anything.


 
I see your point, but not all metal siding systems are attached the same way. Some have hidden seams that just interlock, but possibly not enough to create a reliable electrical bond. This is what I was thinking of.

In your situation, bonding the tin under the pan is a good idea.:thumbsup:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> T IMO, also, someone stated that if the service is installed properly it would not be necassary, but around here, your GEC does not enter the meter base. So,,,,*if the meter is screwed to tin,* your service screwed to plywood, your GEC leaves building in PVC, with only one rec. mounted under it on the wood,* the tin is isolated from the service*. If it became energized, it would not trip anything.


If the meter is attached directly to the tin, then the tin cannot be isolated. It would be connected through the metal of the meter can.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

JohnJ0906 said:


> If the meter is attached directly to the tin, then the tin cannot be isolated. It would be connected through the metal of the meter can.[/quote
> 
> 
> There's no GEC in the metre base. Dominion will not let you ground their base. The grounded conductor is isolated.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> JohnJ0906 said:
> 
> 
> > If the meter is attached directly to the tin, then the tin cannot be isolated. It would be connected through the metal of the meter can.[/quote
> ...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Metal siding...BONDED or not*



JohnJ0906 said:


> mcclary's electrical said:
> 
> 
> > So you mean that the meter can is entirely ungrounded? Not even bonded to the neutral?
> ...


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> ]I don't think I've run into that but if it is a metallic conduit system then the meter base would be grounded, EFFECTIVELY.


Every meter can (120/240) I have ever seen has the neutral bonded to the metal. That is an effective fault path.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Metal siding...Bonded, or not*



JohnJ0906 said:


> Every meter can (120/240) I have ever seen has the neutral bonded to the metal. That is an effective fault path.


I was responding to Mcclary's post, but going on that,I might ask, if the meter base is BONDED to the neutral, why do we have to do it INSIDE, as well?


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