# FPE Stab-Lok breakers



## bonnie1 (Apr 8, 2008)

Comments, please!?! - I have seen many issues related to the old brown FPE breakers - do not trip, cause fires, etc. I have seen many discussions about the newer (circa 1977 forward) black FPE breakers being revamped, rather than replace a full FPE box and breakers, just replace the brown breakers with new black breakers. I have seen and read material on the internet saying that all FPE boxes/breakers are just one step short of suicide. SO, now real estate home inspectors note all FPE breakers as a hazard - and recommend charging the customer $3k to replace panel and all breakers etc. I am having a hard time justifying this when I cannot find solid evidence that the newer breakers are weak. If they were so weak, why is FPE still selling them without lawsuits? So, opinions/comments/SOLID research reports are welcomed. Thanks.


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## kingsmurf (Feb 24, 2008)

*kingsmurf FPE BREAKERS*

I hope I can post this link http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpe.html

it is my experience that replacing one or several of these breakers would NOT significantly improve the serious fire hazard tendencys of these

much like another lethal set of brands Zinsco Lindsco . . .I do 
certainly advise upon replacing the panel itself as an safety matter

if the breaker does NOT open on the required rating it will eventually
burn the insulation off the wire insdie the wall and start the worst kind of fire . . . .or melt the breaker . . . .or pop upon handling and chuck hot electrical sharpnel


please Bonnie1 . .get bids . .get references . . .get that sucker out of your home . . get a modern panel..and all connections cleaned up


if I have NOT convinced you . .know that I replace these usually at the WORST times for the home owner . .AFTER injury and/or fire

feel free to read the internet details . .talk to your local inspector
or Fire Captain


talk to ALL of your friends ...see if they have any electrician buddies willing to help you out . .since panel changes can be 
hundreds to thousands


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## kingsmurf (Feb 24, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

since you are in my neck of the woods . . .though I do NOT know where
in NorCal . . . .if I can be of help or help you get an electrcian...help with details on contracts etc etc please fell free to contact me

[email protected]


one thing further . . .you will not under any circumstances fail to use an licensed contracotr nor fail to get permits etc etc inspections . .long
story but great advice when swapping panels


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## bonnie1 (Apr 8, 2008)

Good Morning, I am a California licensed C10 contractor. My question is more focused around who has actually seen what concerning Stab-lok breakers. I have only seen 2 failures. Both had FPE panels with the old brown breakers, BUT had aluminum service wire. I have read the dire diatribe by one home inspector in NY and read the particulars of a lawsuit in NJ, but I am looking to hear what other electricians have seen. 

I know of many products and companies which have been run out of business and consumers terrified by warnings which were not particularly well-researched. Then there is a web of lawyers looking for money and taking advantage of people in a bad situation - like right after their home burned down. 

So, I am trying to find real-life experiences from others who may have seen this type of meltdown and find out if the breaker failure came from al. line wire, service wire, breaker overload which did not trip..... 

Electricity is a very scary thing to anyone who does not work with it - particularly new homeowners who are provided with information from home inspectors about FPE panels. They would not like to see their investment and children burned during the night. So any experience, please?


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

In my experience, the Federal Pacific breakers were randomly unreliable. I was working in a church when another guy split MC too deep and the wire began arcing to the armor. The breaker didn't trip. I had to find the panel and trip the breaker. What I read was that they behaved randomly when tested, but I was surprised to see they were still marketed in Canada and Mexico.

Last time I bought an FPE breaker, it was ridiculously expensive,and considering their reputation, I can't, in good faith, work on an FPE panel without recommending a panel change. I just don't know how the liability would work. On the witness stand, if asked if I knew about FPE's reputation, I'd have to answer yes. And then, when asked if I worked on one without making any recommendation to the homeowner, I'd have to say yes. I think they would own me.

I replace FPEs at pretty close to cost.


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## kingsmurf (Feb 24, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

Bonnie1 . . . .it may have been more useful to have stated from the beginning that you were an licensed contractor

without stating ones knowledge level...you just do NOT know if the post is from an DIY..and thus the reply was based upon that

as an long working electrician . .my comment still stands . .they are dangerous . . . .and yes...I have seen contributing factors such as 
overloaded/too hot breakers ..but generally due to the breaker NOT opening on rating as opposed to other contributing factors


bad product period


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## bonnie1 (Apr 8, 2008)

I intended no "trick" by not stating out front that I am licensed. My understanding of this forum is that it is not a DIY forum. Although I have been in the electric field for 32 years, most of my experience has been in HV construction particularly lead U/G. I have been licensed for 14 years but really working low volts for about 6 years. I appreciate the concern in your original responses as safety is the top priority.

However, working in the field as a single owner of a company doing small jobs, my ability to network is very limited. I work by myself and no longer have the chance to shoot the bull with the guys - stories from today, yesterday and yesteryear. These are a very important portion of on-going education. I learn more from the people I worked with than any school taught me about how many ways to reverse Ohm's Law.

Before condemning things (FPE breakers for instance), I want to check out other people's experience with things and there is nothing better than hearing from others working in the field. I can read IEEE papers, and studies performed under control circumstances, but the experience of the other people faced with products tells me much more. 

The question arises because recently I have been asked to replace a 125 amp distribution panel manufactured and installed in 1979. The line wire is 3-wire aluminum (#2 with a #2 neutral) and the service to the load side is also aluminum. The panel is flush mount with a 3" riser. The breakers are the black (not pre-1974 brown) FPE breakers. This has been noted on an real estate inspection form prior to sale of a home. I will gladly change the whole kit and caboodle out, but wanted more to solidify this position. Like other people's experiences.

So, thank you for your insight.


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## itsunclebill (Jan 16, 2007)

The problems with FPE breakers and panels are many. First and foremost are the breakers that won't trip. It's impossible to know which the bad ones are till there's an overload. The 2 poles got the notoriety but I've personally experienced single pole breakers that won't trip. Many of these breakers can't be turned off manually after they lock up on an overload. This is a particularly bad deal in a split buss panel where the breaker that disconnects the split buss won't trip when the branch circuit breaker locks up too.

Then there's the screwy buss that has the stamped holes. The design allows the half-wide breakers to be forced into the holes in spaces where they don't belong. I've removed a panel cover and had literally half the breakers fall out because of this.

I've seen all the problems described on the NY inspect site. I've also seen many panels that appear to have no issues at all and except for knowing that some breakers won't trip wouldn't have concerns.

My policy, though, is that I won't work in an FPE panel. I just can't verify that something I did won't cause one of the numerous buss problems to show up.


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## bonnie1 (Apr 8, 2008)

Thanks! This is the kind of feedback and info I really appreciate hearing. Like I said, I'm kinda out here alone and miss the camaraderie that goes along with this experience.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

At this point in time, to debate their design as good bad or otherwise is futile, but there was never a formal recall issued on FPE Stab-lok breakers, double-pole or not. There are still millions of them in use today. Listed Classified replacement breakers are available and apparently use the same design as the original equipment circuit breakers do. 
They are of course, much more expensive that the OEM breakers ever were.
For all of the horror story scenarios I’ve heard in the last 25 plus years, I have to say, I’ve seen more problems firsthand with Cutler Hammer CH, SQD QO and even Siemens QP than I have with all Federal Pacific Stab-lok. That includes commercial buildings such as hotels, and churches as well as single family residential and condominium complexes. Home inspector’s red flag them almost automatically, even though form everything that I have read, the unbiased statistics do not seem to warrant it.

As a result of the hysteria though, real or not, I am also compelled to recommend replacement when I see them on a job I am estimating. CYA.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

KayJay said:


> ...For all of the horror story scenarios I’ve heard in the last 25 plus years, I have to say, I’ve seen more problems firsthand with Cutler Hammer CH, SQD QO and even Siemens QP than I have with all Federal Pacific Stab-lok.....


To be fair, though, what is the number of those brands you see on a day-to-day basis compared to FPEs? Personally, I've seen more Pushmatics and Zinscos then FPEs.

To put it another way, I could honestly say I have never had a problem with a Chevy or Dodge product. But I have never owned either. That does not make Chevy or Dodge problem-free. It simply means I drive a Ford.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

In NM, FPE was a very popular brand, and when I started doing electrical work in the mid 80's many of the homes we did service work in had FPE panels in them. 

Working on these panels, I had far more trouble with insufficient wiring room, removing and installing breakers, and loose buss or lug connections than actual breaker failures. While its been many years since I've worked with FPE, my memory of the issues I've dealt with are much more centered around breaking the darn breakers trying to get them out of the panels than breaker failures themselves. 

But far be it from me to argue with conventional wisdom, so there had to be a reason I was changing the breakers out, right? :whistling2:
Hey, I hate FPE as much as the next guy, but maybe not for the same reasons.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> To be fair, though, what is the number of those brands you see on a day-to-day basis compared to FPEs? Personally, I've seen more Pushmatics and Zinscos then FPEs.
> 
> To put it another way, I could honestly say I have never had a problem with a Chevy or Dodge product. But I have never owned either. That does not make Chevy or Dodge problem-free. It simply means I drive a Ford.


 
Well stated, I don't remember the last time I saw an FPE panel. Location is a huge factor with this type of thing. NYC there is a huge amount of Westinghouse, GE, Square D, and antique stuff that names escape me right now.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Well stated, I don't remember the last time I saw an FPE panel. Location is a huge factor with this type of thing. NYC there is a huge amount of Westinghouse, GE, Square D, and antique stuff that names escape me right now.


Yeah, I think location has a lot to do with it.

I see FPE, Wadsworth, GE, SquareD, and CH in older stuff.
Couldn't tell you the last time I saw Pushmatic or Zinsco.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

I agree, it's location. For older panels I see Wadsworth, Pushmatic, and in commericial, ITE. I very seldom, if at all, see FPE or Zinsco.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Last Pushmatic I saw had a failed double pole. Wouldn't reset and hold. Oddly enough, I had one, still in the box, buried in my stuff.


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## bonnie1 (Apr 8, 2008)

Once again, thank you all for your insight and experience. Northern California had a ton of FPE panels installed during the late 70s to early 80s building boom (as opposed to all the other building booms - but that's another story) and while I am not seeing multi failures on FPE, every home inspector cites them. I am thinking that CYA has to be the way to go - insurance covers errors, but no money can replace someones life. I just still don't have a strong feeling that FPEs are the root of all evil. But, thanks again and we can move on to other subjects.


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## SparkyInCanadaEh (Mar 7, 2008)

Up here I would say that FPE accounts for about 30% of the panels I'm into on a monthly basis. I can't say that I have had any more trouble with them than any of the others. I just pulled another siemens bolt-on BQ out the other day all cooked up. Usually replace the FPE breakers for seized handles, but overall O.K. Really like the SQ D but its expensive. CH and Siemens - basically the same thing. Push a matic (bulldogs) are the worst for not working properly.


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## Louieb (Mar 19, 2007)

I have encountered too many Fed Pac that have that have the interiors adjusted all the way out,making a hot panel shaky,which makes me shaky,I also have a problem with any panel whose cover is designed to hold the breakers in place.Federal with old rusted Bx could be disasterous!


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

*Federal Pacific*

I just replaced on of these. It was installed in the late '60's

Pictures attached.

The lug for the burned feed was only hand tight. It generated enough heat to cook of the insulator around the bus.

Can I blame the panel for this failure? Probably not. This just goes to show that some PM for aluminum feeds can go along way towards solving problems.

I dissected the panel and found that the bus was burned under the 30-40 amp breakers. These breakers also had cooked insulation.

I think this panel was a bad design for its era supported by the burned bus underneath the larger breakers.

On this project, I had quie a bit of negotiation with the AHJ. They were flexible and very keen on seeing this panel gone!

EJPHI


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## Thomp (Feb 11, 2008)

If I do work on FPE Panel on a service call I will always note at the bottom "panel needs to be replace" and have customer sign it. That way I am covered.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

480sparky said:


> To be fair, though, what is the number of those brands you see on a day-to-day basis compared to FPEs? Personally, I've seen more Pushmatics and Zinscos then FPEs.
> 
> To put it another way, I could honestly say I have never had a problem with a Chevy or Dodge product. But I have never owned either. That does not make Chevy or Dodge problem-free. It simply means I drive a Ford.


 
FPE are still fairly prevalent in this area and I see them quite often. Unfortunately, more than I would like to. Some of the residential developments around here that were built in the 70’s and 80’s are lousy with FPE. Just as another poster stated, when I see them on a job, I alway make a note on the invoice or estimate recommending replacement.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

EJPHI, Nice Save! You made a nice install.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

*Federal Pacific*

EJPHI, Nice Save! You made a nice install.

_Last edited by bobelectric; Yesterday at 02:20 AM. Reason: additonal comment _


_Thanks BOB!_

_This one was interesting. Fire wall, AFCI for bedrooms, rerouting FMC, and trimming out the Weigman box._

_I would like to have put the bottom 2" pipe lower but then I would have chewed into Square D's knockouts. Lowering this pipe would have reduced the traffic jam near the neutral bar._

_EJPHI_


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I hate FPE breakers also...Aside from doing their intended jobs poorly, the commercial (bolt-on) tubs were made well. The breakers were garbage, and both types had problems with tripping. More than once I have seen a short go right back through the transformer and take out the fuses. Also seen this happen on 347 volt lighting systems using FPE where it took out the main fuses back at the switchgear instead of clearing at the breaker. What suprises me is that there are STILL stab lok panels being installed and sold last I saw! I worked in a house that was built last year for a friend and it had a "stab-n-fail" panel in it! The only difference was the main breaker was square D. Cheap EC's are installing them because you can get a stab lok panel with breakers for under 100 bucks at some suppliers. They are just plain GARBAGE and I hate working on them, breakers fall out when you take the cover off, they break, the breakers get stuck in the panel sometimes or they dont go in properly. I don't know why they still sell them!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I was involved with the FPE recall in the 1980’s, the only circuit breakers of interest at the time were the commercial bolt in CB’s and as I recall the main/only issue was AIC ratings. There were no StabLocs on the recall list. 

I have long since lost/misplaced the list.
Having said this:
1. I have seen a lot of issues with the StabLocs mostly poor bus connection from loss of tension.
2. While I have not tested any of the StabLocs, I know of no reports stating there was a tripping issue (other than HI reports on the web).
3. I have tested residential CBs and had failures with all brands tested.

BUT based upon the tension issue, and the age of this equipment I would recommend replacement. I would not sell with scare and hype; I would use logic and common sense.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> I was involved with the FPE recall in the 1980’s, the only circuit breakers of interest at the time were the commercial bolt in CB’s and as I recall the main/only issue was AIC ratings. There were no StabLocs on the recall list.
> 
> I have long since lost/misplaced the list.
> Having said this:
> ...


Hi Brian, nice to see you here again. 

I think at this point the age issue is a big a factor as anything else. As I stated before, my issues with FPE were always design related vs. breaker failure. 

If I go on a service call and find a 30 year old panel with problems, it doesn't make any difference what brand it is, I'm likely to recommend replacement.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> If I go on a service call and find a 30 year old panel with problems, it doesn't make any difference what brand it is, I'm likely to recommend replacement.


Exactly


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## cornishsparks (Oct 14, 2007)

Read all your comments on Federal Electric stablock breakers, we have those in the UK have fitted them myself a few years ago but never heard of ant problems in the UK.
Federal have gone and forgotten as a brand in the UK swallowed up by the Scheinder group (square D, Merlin Gerin)


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