# 400 Alumiconn Outlets Cost?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis said:


> I'm just curious I guess what others around country are charging to change out an outlet (alumiconn's and receptacles and wire for pigtails paid for and supplied by owner...I know..he cut me out) from alum to copper. I'm guessing 4 per hour to be safe maybe a little more depending if lucky. The ones I looked at looked good with long wires but were old cut in metal boxes from 72'. They generally had 1-3 romex per outlet. large apt. complex. He will give me keys for easy access. We have 25 sub panels to change out as well in same place.
> 
> I'm thinking $10-$12 per outlet for me (labor only). About 400 outlets total (lights, switches, receptacles).
> 
> ...


1972 is borderline close to having romex with undersized ground in it. Careful of that when you send your bid. The other item is in the old days the inspectors did not pay so much attention to box fill, so there is a good likelyhood you are going to run into some overstuffed boxes along the way. When I bid the same age replace device buildings I figure 70 per cent at a quarter hour each, and twenty percent at a bit longer and ten percent at double or even higher for when I have to open wall and replace the box entirely with a 4-11/16 or something along those lines. Last- " We are not responsible for any existing defects in the existing wiring system of the building, and any existing defect that must be repaired will be charged additonal to the cost of this proposal".


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Like he says, beware of the small metal nail on boxes. Its tough to fit these in. If you have more two cables in the box, you need to add another alumicon for each, ie there are only three openings in each alumiconn. Get one of the Wiha torque screwdrivers. I am doing this for a customer with a early 70s home too, but by the hour. Not a bad job, but it takes time, working around all the furniture etc. Slider or smart boxes can be helpful and no need to bond a plastic box.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

*Alumiconn??:blink:*


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No purple wirenuts here, those are hack...


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> No purple wirenuts here, those are hack...


They both are hack 

The only way I would do that job would be to use the repair recommended by CPSC using the AMP TYCO COPALUM Connector AND install ARC fault breakers on all the AL conductors.

My insurance and self would sleep better at night. Once you touch a house with AL your going to be married to it. Anything ever happens you will be held accountable.

I just got a rough inspection on a AL house I convinced the HO to partially gut the place and let me run all copper wires all the AL was removed or abandoned.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> They both are hack
> 
> The only way I would do that job would be to use the repair recommended by CPSC using the AMP TYCO COPALUM Connector AND install ARC fault breakers on all the AL conductors.
> 
> ...


Can you post some of the factual proof of those statements. Please refrain from flaming if it is possible when you do, I am only interested in the actual case hearings...


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Actually, the alumicons are cpsc approved:

http://www.alcopstore.com/cpsc-approves-alumiconn/

I was really joking about hack, like everyone else does. Still wouldn't use the wirenuts. Though it is amazing to take apart wirenutted connections from 30-40yrs back and their fine. I looked into the Tyco deal, what a racket that is, look at the agreement you have to buy into. I know the risk I am getting into.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Can you post some of the factual proof of those statements. Please refrain from flaming if it is possible when you do, I am only interested in the actual case hearings...


 

NEWS from CPSC
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207 
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 1, 2003
Release # 03-120 CPSC Consumer Hotline: (800) 638-2772 
CPSC Media Contact: Scott Wolfson, (301) 504-7051
Tyco Electronics Media Contact: Paul Lavenberg, (717) 592-2409 
*May Is National Electrical Safety Month: Good News for Homeowners - Aluminum Wiring Fix Still Available *

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) announced today that Tyco Electronics Corp., of Harrisburg, Pa., has agreed to continue offering the COPALUM connector repair system until at least 2005 for homes with aluminum wiring. The COPALUM repair system has benefited tens of thousands of consumers by reducing the risks of dangerous overheating and fire that can be caused by failing aluminum wiring connections. It is estimated that 2 million homes were built with aluminum wire between 1965 and 1973.
Warning signs, such as warm-to-the-touch face plates on outlets or switches, flickering lights, circuits that don't work, or the smell of burning plastics, can indicate a fire hazard within 15- and 20-ampere aluminum wiring circuits. A failure in the circuits can lead to electrical arcing and a serious fire, which can spread within the walls of a home before being detected. 
The COPALUM crimp connector, which has been available for more than 20 years,* is the only system recognized by CPSC that provides a complete and permanent repair* and reduces the fire hazard in aluminum wire circuits. The COPALUM connector system attaches a copper wire to the old aluminum wires and is then crimped together with a power tool, achieving a "cold weld" between the conductors. The "cold weld" creates a permanent bond that eliminates electrical arcing or glowing connections and creates a safer electrical connection at outlets, switches, lights, circuit breakers, and panelboard terminals. The COPALUM connector repair materials and power crimping tools are only available to electricians who receive training from the manufacturer, to ensure that repairs are properly made. 
"CPSC appreciates Tyco's commitment to protecting the safety of consumers by continuing to offer COPALUM connectors," said CPSC Chairman Hal Stratton. "Without the Tyco Electronics system, the only method for safely upgrading aluminum wiring systems would be to install new copper circuits, which is often impractical for consumers." 
CPSC believes that "twist-on" connectors, receptacles and switches and other devices that connect directly to aluminum wires, are an inadequate solution. The COPALUM crimp connector system provides a safe, permanent fix. 
If homeowners are not certain whether their home has aluminum branch circuit wiring, they can look at the markings on the surface of the electric cables which may be visible in unfinished basements, attics or garages. Aluminum wiring will have "Al" or "Aluminum" marked every few feet along the cable. A home inspector or qualified electrician also can assist in identifying aluminum wiring. CPSC advises that consumers should not open the interior of the panelboard or circuit breaker compartment - this can expose live wires and pose an electrocution hazard. 
COPALUM connectors are available from Tyco Electronics under the AMP brand. Consumers can check to see if the COPALUM connector system is available in their area by calling the company at (800) 522-6752. To order a list of authorized electricians in their area, consumers can write to: Tyco Electronics Corp., Attn: Aluminum Wire Repair Program, P.O. Box 3608, Harrisburg, PA 17105-3608. If no authorized electrician is currently located nearby, consumers can have an electrician interested in repairing their home contact the nearest supplier of AMP- brand COPALUM connectors for training and other repair information. 
For more CPSC information about aluminum wiring and the crimp connector system, see "Repairing Aluminum Wiring" (pdf). Consumers can also obtain a free copy of this booklet by writing to CPSC, Washington, DC 20207.

AlumiConn TM *Purple #95103* aluminum to copper lug connectors _[New in 2006, U.L. Listed, 2007 completed independent testing]_ available from King Innovation. Results of independent testing indicate that this product *"... is predicted to have a high probability of failure-free long-term safe performance, PROVIDED THAT THE SETSCREWS ARE CAREFULLY TIGHTENED TO THE MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDATION"*.

I would rather use the known solution then one that "is predicted" to be good.

There are lots more just use google


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Tyco is really raking in the dough on the copalum thing, with a lease on the crimper alone in the 4 digit range. CPSC's "approval" really helped me thinks.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> Actually, the alumicons are cpsc approved:
> 
> http://www.alcopstore.com/cpsc-approves-alumiconn/
> 
> I was really joking about hack, like everyone else does. Still wouldn't use the wirenuts. Though it is amazing to take apart wirenutted connections from 30-40yrs back and their fine. I looked into the Tyco deal, what a racket that is, look at the agreement you have to buy into. I know the risk I am getting into.


 
That was why I just ripped it all out. The homeowner feels safer, I feel safer and my bank account feels safer...LOL


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/ballot/ballot11/pub516.pdf


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Total replacement ultimately would be best if you can get it. I like the look of the copalum route because of the smaller splice, but the cost to get in is ridiculous. These are good customers and someone else is going to do it if I don't, probably losing them entirely.


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## Scantone (Mar 30, 2011)

I charge 20 bucks for a standard outlet location the allumiconns are a little less then 3 bucks a piece and some times you will need 4 of the darn things thats 12 bucks their alone


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> NEWS from CPSC
> U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
> Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> ...


Rob, I didn't ask which method was better, I asked how you got your information that we would be held accountable for using an alternate to the copalum method. Was it speculation, or do you know of actual prosecutions of law regarding the issue?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Rob, I didn't ask which method was better, I asked how you got your information that we would be held accountable for using an alternate to the copalum method. Was it speculation, or do you know of actual prosecutions of law regarding the issue?


 
About 15-20 years ago a house caught fire from electrical wiring in Flanders,NJ on Christmas eve and family of 6 died.

2 years earlier a permit had been taken out to repair the AL wire in the house.The job had passed. I worked for the EC that went in after the fire with the insurance co to determine just what had happened. There were alot of purple wire nuts and co/al rated devices. The EC that had repaired the wiring was sued and they settled out of court,One month later the EC closed up shop and left town.

I don't have time to google up links it is old news.

Are you REALLY that naive that you don't think after repairing an entire house and something happenes they aren't going to point the finger at you? Anything we do as electrical contractors no matter how diligent and safe we are could come back to haunt. That is why we pay so much for insurance. Don't you know what happens when a structure burns and they can't determine the cause? They rule it as being electrical and go hunt down the last poor slob that worked on it.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> About 15-20 years ago a house caught fire from electrical wiring in Flanders,NJ on Christmas eve and family of 6 died.
> 
> 2 years earlier a permit had been taken out to repair the AL wire in the house.The job had passed. I worked for the EC that went in after the fire with the insurance co to determine just what had happened. There were alot of purple wire nuts and co/al rated devices. The EC that had repaired the wiring was sued and they settled out of court,One month later the EC closed up shop and left town.
> 
> ...


I don't think the end result of this scenario really have played out any differently even if the house had been wired with all CU wire and CU only devices.
Unfortunately, this type of thing still happens, regardless as to whether the building is wired with aluminum branch circuits or not. Every job we do has some element of risk and the potential for liability.

I’m no fan of aluminum building wire either and I do my level best to recommend replacing it [in writing] whenever I find it, but I do also stock the AlumiConn connectors, just in case I need to make a suitable repair on a service call. 
Without knowing all the details, I suppose it’s possible to say that if the EC had used another approved method, instead of the dubious purple wirenuts, the event may never have occurred, but we are talking 15-20 years ago when other than replacing the wire, the Copalum connectors were basically the only other choice.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Cletis said:


> The ones I looked at looked good with long wires but were old *cut in metal boxes* from 72'. They generally had 1-3 romex per outlet. large apt. complex.


This is the part that makes me cringe. Jamming aluminum wire with those large terminal blocks sounds like a nightmare. I'd seriously consider chopping the boxes out and replacing them with smartboxes. It may be well worth the extra effort.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It does help provided you are up against a stud, otherwise deep plastic old work. In my case they were all small metal nail ons with short ground tails. More than two cables almost a neccesity.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Deal*

Well. I don't like messing with 70's alum anyway for all the above reasons. We are going to change out 1 apt @ $10 per outlet for a test. He is supplying all alumiconn's, wire for pigtails, and new receptacles. To further enhance my peace of mind I told him this is cash cash (no check) and no 1099 or paperwork which he usually does to me. He took the bait. This is first job out of probably 5,000 or more jobs I've demanded cash. But, it seems logical. 

I'll report back on outcome next week


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

From a cost to benefit ratio, to me, the Tyco crimps are the worst solution out of all of them. As costly as they are, you might as well convince the homeowner to spend about 30% - 40% more and just re-wire the whole house.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Cost*

A little more than that. 

It's a 25 unit apartment building. Would have been around 50k to to rewire. Only about 5k to do it this way.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Expect box replacements in kitchens and bathroom(if equipped) for GFI installations. Those 10/2 als in those brown bakelites get mighty unfriendly when they meet purple and a GFI.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I bet in the house I am working on there probably still metal. They did show some decency and used a few bracketed four squares with mudrings. The only thing I have going for me is an open basement under the kitchen.


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