# Siemans panels



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I have a customer that has a G3030L1200 main lug panel.
Has one open slot, but I need another.
Can the guts of a G3040L1200 fit into the can?
I haven't taken anything apart yet.
I have to correct a mistake that a landscape guy did.

He installed a sub panel, feeding a #6 copper from the lugs on the bottom of the main disconect.
He doubletapped the lugs and mixed copper and AL, so I need a spot in the main panel to feed this sub.
Sound like it will work?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jbfan said:


> Can the guts of a G3040L1200 fit into the can?


I would not count on that. I would check with Siemens. Can you easily add a small sub panel and move a few circuits from the old panel to the new one?


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*?*

maybe? got a pic? 

You could add some tandems if needed. If that don't work just add a little sub-panel right off that panel and refeed from that. That's what I usually talk people into. They are about out of space anyhow. 

I usually can add a little 100 amp 10/20 spacer right next to panel (external) for about $200 and about 1-2 hrs time. At $20 bucks a tandem it seems a better idea. 
Unless they are dirt poor.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I like Dennis idea, JB, just add a sub and take out some circuits from the original.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Add sub-panel like Dennis said or they make twin breakers now that go on either buss. I call them cheater twin breakers.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

Minis will not fit the 3030 panel, made for full size breakers only.
Do they make a twin seimans breaker?(never mind, found the answer)

Would using a twin violate the listing of a 30 circuit panel with 31 circuit?

My first thought was the small sub, but the garage is sheetrocked and I wasn't sure that would be more cost effective.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

See if there's two circuits you can combine into one.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> See if there's two circuits you can combine into one.


Good advice. I have seen, in some older homes around here, where the ec put every outlet in the kitchen on its own circuit. No problem doubling a few of those up.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

jbfan said:


> Minis will not fit the 3030 panel, made for full size breakers only.
> Do they make a twin seimans breaker?(never mind, found the answer)
> 
> Would using a twin violate the listing of a 30 circuit panel with 31 circuit?
> ...


Yes, they will. They make one that fits a 30/30 panel. It may be a Murray, but I don;t think its a big deal.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Siemans Panel*

Is there a chance you can take some load readings from each circuit and then redistribute ,and create extra slots for additional breakers? I have done that.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

30A with two pig tail sockets with 15A fuses in them  
Opps.. Thats only for trade shows..


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

jbfan said:


> I have a customer that has a G3030L1200 main lug panel.
> Has one open slot, but I need another.
> Can the guts of a G3040L1200 fit into the can?
> I haven't taken anything apart yet.
> ...


I think the 30/40 has the same guts as the 40/40.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yes, they will. They make one that fits a 30/30 panel. It may be a Murray, but I don;t think its a big deal.


No, a Siemens ITE 30/30 will not accept a 1 pole twin hence the 30/30. If it was a 30/40 it would but a 30/30 does not have notched bus bars to allow twins.


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## Midnitel (Feb 21, 2009)

Sub will give them more room for future. If panel is old offer them to change panel to 40 space.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yes, they will. They make one that fits a 30/30 panel. It may be a Murray, but I don;t think its a big deal.


They may fit but the panel is not UL Listed for twins or mini breakers. Siemens numbers are good in that a 30/30 means all one size and 30 breakers. A 30/40 will accept either 30 full size or 20 full and 10 twins giving 40 breakers total.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I think the 30/40 has the same guts as the 40/40.


No. 

The 30/30 has 30 spaces for 30 full sized breakers. 

A 40/40 has 40 spaces for 40 full size breakers.

A 30/ 40 has 30 spaces with the bottom 5 fingers having a V cut out of the center to allow the twin breaker to slip in place.

Logic says that a 30/40 would fit in the 30/30 space but it seems like a lot of work for one space.

I'd look for a couple of lightly loaded 15A circuits to double up. The irrigation timer and lanscape light timer for example.

You can find a CL twin that will fit onto the regular portion of the bus but the listing would still be an issue (if things like that bother you). The old school twins didn't have that feature so I hang onto them in case of emergency.

You can also use the Peter D method and remove the clip that keeps the twin from slipping on the bus :jester:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

amptech said:


> No, a Siemens ITE 30/30 will not accept a 1 pole twin hence the 30/30. If it was a 30/40 it would but a 30/30 does not have notched bus bars to allow twins.


Listen to what I am saying. Murray makes 2 types of twins. The first is the regular twin that fits on a 30/40 buss. The second has a deeper slot that is made to fit on a buss that would not ordinarily take a twin breaker. I don;t think its a big deal to use them, why would they make a product that would violate some ul listing?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

> You can find a CL twin that will fit onto the regular portion of the bus but the listing would still be an issue (if things like that bother you). The old school twins didn't have that feature so I hang onto them in case of emergency.


This is the breaker I was talking about.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Listen to what I am saying. Murray makes 2 types of twins. The first is the regular twin that fits on a 30/40 buss. The second has a deeper slot that is made to fit on a buss that would not ordinarily take a twin breaker. I don;t think its a big deal to use them, why would they make a product that would violate some ul listing?


Because the one style is designed to replace existing twins, not add a circuit to an already crowded panel.

Square D does the same thing. They make two types of tandems.


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## Lurch (Dec 12, 2007)

I would ask the moderators to move this to the DIY side from some of the answers given.The right answers don't involve breaking tthe clip out of breakers or putting over thirty circuits in a 3030 panel.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Because the one style is designed to replace existing twins, not add a circuit to an already crowded panel.
> 
> Square D does the same thing. They make two types of tandems.


I'm not sure I understand you. So what is the tandem that fits on all buss styles for?


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Listen to what I am saying. Murray makes 2 types of twins. The first is the regular twin that fits on a 30/40 buss. The second has a deeper slot that is made to fit on a buss that would not ordinarily take a twin breaker. I don;t think its a big deal to use them, why would they make a product that would violate some ul listing?


I know the twins you are talking about. They are called "Non CTL" and are not for use in a panel they aren't listed for. A straight 30/30 or 40/40 is not listed for the use of twin breakers. I have seen guys do this and make a 40/40 panel a 58 circuit panel and they got tagged.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

amptech said:


> I know the twins you are talking about. They are called "Non CTL" and are not for use in a panel they aren't listed for. A straight 30/30 or 40/40 is not listed for the use of twin breakers. I have seen guys do this and make a 40/40 panel a 58 circuit panel and they got tagged.


OK, gotcha.I thought you doubting they exist. What panel are they used in?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Listen to what I am saying. Murray makes 2 types of twins. The first is the regular twin that fits on a 30/40 buss. The second has a deeper slot that is made to fit on a buss that would not ordinarily take a twin breaker. I don;t think its a big deal to use them, why would they make a product that would violate some ul listing?


Those breakers are clearly marked on the side "FOR NON CTL USE ONLY."

No biggie in my book. They now allow 80 circuit panels, so not suprisingly I was ahead of the game!


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## Lurch (Dec 12, 2007)

There are two types of breakers, a circuit limiting ie. the SD with the hook that has to go thru the plastic rail in a QO panel, no hole, no go. The other is non- circuit limiting like the QO tandem without the hook where the average hack can put 56 circuits in a 40 cicuit QO panel so he doesn't have to get a permit.Same as with a ITE QT 20/20 which is circuit limiting or the ITE QT 20/20 NC which is not.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Those breakers are clearly marked on the side "FOR NON CTL USE ONLY."
> 
> No biggie in my book. They now allow 80 circuit panels, so not suprisingly I was ahead of the game!


Yeah, thats what I was thinking. They now have no limit to the number of circuits in a panel....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No biggie in my book. They now allow 80 circuit panels, so not suprisingly I was ahead of the game!


If you have a panel with 80 spaces, you could still not put in tandems unless it's rated for them.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you have a panel with 80 spaces, you could still not put in tandems unless it's rated for them.


Exactly. I haven't seen a stab-in panel listed for more than 42 circuits yet. Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen them in my corner of the world yet.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

amptech said:


> Exactly. I haven't seen a stab-in panel listed for more than 42 circuits yet. Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen them in my corner of the world yet.


I have yet to see one, either.

Maybe they're making them out of those mysterious pieces of metal that alledgedly fall onto the prongs of a cord plug when it's partially inserted into a receptacle.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I thought I was on your ignore list.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

amptech said:


> I thought I was on your ignore list.


 
There ya go, with that wrong thinkin' again.  JackBoot is on my Ignore list.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Why does he get special treatment? Cause he's union and I'm not? That's not fair!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

amptech said:


> Why does he get special treatment? Cause he's union and I'm not? That's not fair!


No. But like I said.... my grandpappy told me once, "Son, if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all."

That's why I don't say anything about JB.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Siemans Panels*

It has been mentioned a couple of times but I am still wondering...could the panel be re-distributed and open a couple of free slots?


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

More info.
The house is 6 years old, not an old panel by any means.
House will soon be for sale, so current owner does not care about future expansion.
I got to thinking about making the sub a 120 volt panel, and call it a day.
A 40 amp single, with 8/2.
Load is a small shed, a pond pump and another circuit for convenience.
Thoughts on that idea?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

If you can get it cheaper than a 100a main lug panel from HD go for it.


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## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> OK, gotcha.I thought you doubting they exist. What panel are they used in?


The non CTL tandems also cost 2-3 times as much. I believe the last time I looked the normal tandem SQD QO was $18 while the non CTL was $45.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

JackBoot said:


> The non CTL tandems also cost 2-3 times as much. I believe the last time I looked the normal tandem SQD QO was $18 while the non CTL was $45.


Yeah, I had to use one not that long ago in a panel that was beyond maxed out. Because we all know an electrician would _never_ use one of those against its listing. :whistling2:


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## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, I had to use one not that long ago in a panel that was beyond maxed out. Because we all know an electrician would _never_ use one of those against its listing. :whistling2:


It's cheaper to use your linemens pliers on the $18 model, don't ask how I know :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

JackBoot said:


> It's cheaper to use your linemens pliers on the $18 model, don't ask how I know :whistling2:



I already do.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I am told that for a panel to be rated for tandem breakers it must have a neutral screw for each circuit. So 40 circuit panel would have 80 neutral screws to be rated for tandems.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> I am told that for a panel to be rated for tandem breakers it must have a neutral screw for each circuit. So 40 circuit panel would have 80 neutral screws to be rated for tandems.


Why would 40 circuits have 80 noodles? Or are you counting grounds as well?

Either way, I've rarely seen panels with a 2:1 neutral bar ratio. 

But that may be a Canadian thing as well, eh?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I got to thinking about making the sub a 120 volt panel, and call it a day.
> A 40 amp single, with 8/2.
> Load is a small shed, a pond pump and another circuit for convenience.
> *Thoughts on that idea?*


 
cough*hack*cough

Just double up something.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

220/221 said:


> cough*hack*cough
> 
> Just double up something.


 
Point taken!:laughing:

But it would be a code compliant hack job!!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

amptech said:


> Exactly. I haven't seen a stab-in panel listed for more than 42 circuits yet. Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen them in my corner of the world yet.


Sq D

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical Distribution/Load Centers/1100HO0802.pdf


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## 2 Nos make it wrong (Feb 18, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yes, they will. They make one that fits a 30/30 panel. It may be a Murray, but I don;t think its a big deal.


Unless it is a Murray panel this would go against the listing. It is your choice, however the Insurance Investigator will be glad to talk with you if there were to be a fire


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

2 Nos make it wrong said:


> Unless it is a Murray panel this would go against the listing. It is your choice, however the Insurance Investigator will be glad to talk with you if there were to be a fire


:laughing:. Yeah, using a Murray in a Siemans panel is going to burn the house down.


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## 2 Nos make it wrong (Feb 18, 2010)

*seimans panels*

I am not saying that the breaker will burn down the house. It's the point that if it happens they will come looking. I might agree that you could do in an emergency but change it after that. A real contractor looks to do it right the first time and safely.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

2 Nos make it wrong said:


> I am not saying that the breaker will burn down the house. It's the point that if it happens they will come looking. I might agree that you could do in an emergency but change it after that. A real contractor looks to do it right the first time and safely.


Ok, Ok. I agree with that. I don't go out of my way to install the wrong materials. Sometimes, you have a cheap customer that wants it done as cheap as possible. It is an inexpensive way to add a circuit(if he couldn't double up on some existing circuits).


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> It is your choice, however the Insurance Investigator will be glad to talk with you if there were to be a fire


If there is one thing I've learned on the internet, it's that a lot of people worry *WAY* more than I do.


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## Buck Parrish (May 7, 2009)

OP you should sell a 400 amp service ... tell them to take it or leave it.. Then add a new 40/40 panel.. JMHO


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

This whole CTL / non-CTL business would be a lot easier to deal with if manufacturers would label the panels on the outside (i.e. on the cover) as to what it's designed for. As far as I can tell, in order to figure out what kind of panel I'm dealing with (e.g. 30/30 or 30/40) I have to take the cover off, pull some breakers above and below, and examine the stabs. Slows down the estimate considerably. Should be printed on the box somewhere. 
And I know: covers, where the labels are, can be swapped around. Still: they're engineers. They should be able to figure out something.


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