# Old work box for thick wall?



## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Do they make old work boxes with flappers that go back further so they can get behind a thick wall?

Sometimes you have to put a receptacle in a cabinet with a 3/4" back panel on top of a 1" wall (plaster and wood lath) and the normal old work boxes won't work because the flapper does go far enough back to grab the wall.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

This box has a pretty good range for depth or screw it on through the ears.

For metal boxes, screw it on through the ears:


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Celtic said:


> This box has a pretty good range for depth or screw it on through the ears.
> 
> For metal boxes, screw it on through the ears:


To be honest, the Carlon box at the top is the one that I know doesn't work, the ears (I called them flappers in the OP) don't go back far enough for many situations.

Screwing in the metal box may work in something like the back of a wood cabinet, but not with thick plaste and lath.


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## Johnny1300 (Aug 23, 2012)

Have you tried a metal cut in box with battle ship or f clamps


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Johnny1300 said:


> Have you tried a metal cut in box with battle ship or f clamps


Aren't those the same thing? I'm not sure about the terminology, around here we just call them "Madison bars (or clips)".

I have tried the ones made for double drywall, when I could find them. They work, but I'd rather not use a small metal box or those clips (they loosen after time and use).


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

These things will go back to just about 1-3/4" (I think most old work
boxes I've seen go to 1-1/4") and will maybe work
for the situation you are describing:









http://www.garvinindustries.com/Electrical-Junction-Boxes/Cut-In-Remodel-Electrical-Boxes/Remodel-Switch-Boxes/G603-OW

Other than that AFAIK, your best option may be to find some longer screws
that are compatible with the flapper screws with the boxes you are using.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

rexowner said:


> These things will go back to just about 1-3/4" (I think most old work
> boxes I've seen go to 1-1/4") and will maybe work
> for the situation you are describing:
> 
> ...


Using longer screws is problematic because there is nothing to stop the rotation of the flapper past factory length. 

I would try to cut the flapper down with *****, I had to do this in my own home. Take some depth off of the FRONT of the flapper, don't remove any threads though.

As a last resort you cold take a deep news construction box, cut the nail tabs off and screw the box to a stud from the inside.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Use Smart boxes or Slider boxes near a stud.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> Use Smart boxes or Slider boxes near a stud.


Links?


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Using longer screws is problematic because there is nothing to stop the rotation of the flapper past factory length.


 I am SO glad that you said that. Apparently you tried it just like I did :thumbup::laughing:


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

nrp3 said:


> Use Smart boxes or Slider boxes near a stud.


I mentioned that in the OP, sometimes it's hard to catch a stud and it becomes risky to even try.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

The madison straps we use should be able to accommodate up to a 2" thick wall.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> ...I'd rather not use a small metal box or those clips (they loosen after time and use).


 I hope that's not true, I've installed many hundreds. I'd use battleships in a heartbeat.

-John


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

http://www.smartboxinc.com/

http://www.alliedmoulded.com/index....gory/template/products_sub_res/categoryid/222



Ii


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like the shape the sliders better, but the smarts are more rigid.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Big John said:


> I hope that's not true, I've installed many hundreds. I'd use battleships in a heartbeat.
> 
> -John


It's definitely true, but it depends on the situation.

If you install one and someone plugs something into it and it stays like that, then there is no issue.

However, if someone is using this receptacle to plug their toaster into every morning, or hair dryer, or vacuum cleaner, and they are the type of person to wiggle the plug out instead of pulling straight, it will loosen. When it loosens, the flaps bend out towards the device, which is why I tape devices when installing them in a box with madison bars.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've seen that, but I always assumed it was due to poor installation. I guess my reasoning was that I have removed many very old boxes held in with madison straps that were still as tight on the box as the day they went in.

-John


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Big John said:


> I've seen that, but I always assumed it was due to poor installation. I guess my reasoning was that I have removed many very old boxes held in with madison straps that were still as tight on the box as the day they went in.
> 
> -John


Remember, you've also seen millions of backstabbed receptacles that work perfectly fine as well, but that doesn't mean that they are a great and fool-proof wiring method :thumbsup:


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

I use metal old works and supply house madison straps always. They pretty much work for anything. The Lowes/HD madison straps suck. The fancy attachment methods suck. Good old Madisons every time.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

kennydmeek said:


> I use metal old works and supply house madison straps always. They pretty much work for anything. The Lowes/HD madison straps suck. The fancy attachment methods suck. Good old Madisons every time.


Trying to fit a typical dimmer or GFCI into a metal gem box can be a pain.

I agree with you about the Lowes and HD madison bars, they are crap.


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> Do they make old work boxes with flappers that go back further so they can get behind a thick wall?
> 
> Sometimes you have to put a receptacle in a cabinet with a 3/4" back panel on top of a 1" wall (plaster and wood lath) and the normal old work boxes won't work because the flapper does go far enough back to grab the wall.


What I do is to use a 2 1/2" fine thread drywall screw in place of the supplied screw, which does put the flapper past the stop if the screw is full seated. 

To get around that I remove stock screw then run the drywall screw in with my impact gun reaming out the hole, then you put the flapper hole on the drywall screw (hole flapper with linesmans) and thread the flapper on at least half way to cut new threads, then back off almost all the way before inserting into hole in wall.

With the neatly reamed out holes you can pull on the drywall screw to get the flapper/box into correct position. 

Install box, install device, collect money, think nice things about jarhead0531.



Also I used the slater old work which have the metal flapper, works better with this method.


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

If it's wood lath, you screw the metal boxes w/ears to the lath with #5 or #4 wood screws. Don't use anything bigger, the wood will just split. If it's into a cabinet, you screw them to the cabinet. If it's drywall, you cut in next to a stud, and secure to that(or f-brackets as a last resort) I have never used a plastic box, so I don't know if there are any other solutions that i'm missing. But these should cover you in 99% of the situations, no matter how deep. I never use the flap boxes. It just takes practice/experience.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> Screwing in the metal box may work in something like the back of a wood cabinet, but not with thick plaste and lath.



It'll work.

Old timers had done it for years...


Ontariojer said:


> If it's wood lath, you screw the metal boxes w/ears to the lath with #5 or #4 wood screws. Don't use anything bigger, the wood will just split. If it's into a cabinet, you screw them to the cabinet.
> 
> I have never used a plastic box, so I don't know if there are any other solutions that i'm missing. But these should cover you in 99% of the situations, no matter how deep.
> 
> It just takes practice/experience.


Not saying that Ontariojer is an old timer....or even myself...but Ontariojer detailed it exactly.
[outta "Thanks" already or I would have Ontariojer]


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Celtic said:


> It'll work.
> 
> Old timers had done it for years...


 I know, and I always found to to be a hacky type of installation. The little screws you have to use don't hold into the soft and split-happy wood lath very well.


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## Goochie1 (Nov 25, 2012)

If your worried that much about the madison strab comming loose and hitting the device then run a few self tapping screws through the wings after it is installed. I would us a 3/8'' panhead or peanut screw.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Goochie1 said:


> If your worried that much about the madison strab comming loose and hitting the device then run a few self tapping screws through the wings after it is installed. I would us a 3/8'' panhead or peanut screw.


I'm not that worried about it, I don't like little metal gem boxes for this application anyway. 

I am going to take a look at the Slater boxes with the metal flappers that go back further, they look like they will work :thumbsup:


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

Dangerously said:


> I know, and I always found to to be a hacky type of installation. The little screws you have to use don't hold into the soft and split-happy wood lath very well.


Then you're doing it(or whoever did it)wrong.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Ontariojer said:


> Then you're doing it(or whoever did it)wrong.


Pretty much. I have installed tons of boxes using that method, and have demoed tons of the installed same, and only if it was hacked into place is there a problem.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Ontariojer said:


> Then you're doing it(or whoever did it)wrong.


I didn't do it, I have fixed it. I live in an are with old houses and have seen this done many, many times.

It's a hack way to do it, that's all there is to it. Tiny screws into crappy wood lath is no way to hold a box into a wall when there are many other alternatives.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> I didn't do it, I have fixed it. I live in an are with old houses and have seen this done many, many times.
> 
> It's a hack way to do it, that's all there is to it. Tiny screws into crappy wood lath is no way to hold a box into a wall when there are many other alternatives.



...and yet, thousands of boxes have been installed this way and have remained securely attached to the lath for many years.

So what is your fool-proof non-hack fix method ?


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Celtic said:


> ...and yet, thousands of boxes have been installed this way and have remained securely attached to the lath for many years.


 Yes, and millions of backstabbed receptacles are still working, that does not mean that they are not hack work.

There are thousands of houses that have lamp cord or extension cords hardwired into the electrical system, what does that mean?

Your example is silly...



> So what is your fool-proof non-hack fix method ?


If you improved your reading comprehension you would have known that already.

A) I just said that I would try to slater boxes with metal flappers that go back further and
B) I am still open to ideas that are not hacky.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> A) I just said that *I would try *to slater boxes with metal flappers that go back further and
> B) I am still o*pen to ideas* that are not hacky.


Neither of which indicates to me that you have actually perfected a method.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> Do they make old work boxes with flappers that go back further so they can get behind a thick wall?


I've asked that a hundred times, mostly when dealing with block walls.

You could pick up some longer screws and use a standard Carlon style box. You would probably have to fight to keep the clip in the track but.....????


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

220/221 said:


> I've asked that a hundred times, mostly when dealing with block walls.
> 
> You could pick up some longer screws and use a standard Carlon style box.


The "guide" for the flapper only goes so far back, so longer screws don't work so well. You can finagle it as someone here mentioned, but hopefully the Slater boxes are good right out of the box.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Neither of which indicates to me that you have actually perfected a method.


Well no $hit Sherlock :laughing::laughing:


That is why I made the thread... :thumbup:


Just because I have not "perfected a method", it does not mean that I can't have the opinion that someone else's method is not up to the standard that I keep.


You really, really are lagging behind today :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> Well no $hit Sherlock :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> That is why I made the thread... :thumbup:
> ...


I think you have seriously lost your marbles today.
You have NO STANDARD...you are making it up as you go along!


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Celtic said:


> I think you have seriously lost your marbles today.
> You have NO STANDARD...you are making it up as you go along!


No, I am not.

Using little tiny screws to hold a box to crappy old wood lath is not a good way to install a box. That is all there is to it.

It was done in the past, and I have have to fix it many times. I hope to never see it done again. I certainly will not do it myself.

If you don't like my opinion, please jump off a bridge.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I haven't used a madison strap or metal box in resi since 1973.

I avoid installing receps in cut in boxes. I won't install a _high use_ recep in cut in boxes. I like to have boxes secure.

We use the slater cut in boxes. I will have to try the fine tread drywall screw next time. I still think you would have to fight it a bit to get it to line up.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> No, I am not.
> 
> Using little tiny screws to hold a box to crappy old wood lath is not a good way to install a box. That is all there is to it.
> 
> ...


Dude.
You have lost it.
You may have never even had it to begin with.


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

I really didn't want to wade into this *issing match, BUT...

Just so we're clear: you are ok with plastic boxes with little flaps that use the drywall as a securing method, but screws into wood is always a hack job. Okaaayy...

Just because you haven't seen it done properly doesn't make it a hack method.


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

I really didn't want to wade into this *issing match, BUT...

Just so we're clear: you are ok with plastic boxes with little flaps that use the drywall as a securing method, but screws into wood is always a hack job. Okaaayy...

Just because you haven't seen it done properly doesn't make it a hack method.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Ontariojer said:


> I really didn't want to wade into this *issing match, BUT...


Sure you did :laughing:

This is a "had to be there" thing. Can a box be tightly secured to wood lathe? It *all *depends on the circumstances. Maybe the screws will grab, maybe they wont.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Dude.
> You have lost it.
> You may have never even had it to begin with.


Now that's funny right there , lol ! Nothing like a guy who asks for advice then insults people when he doesn't agree with their suggestions . He must be a new guy , lol ?


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> He must be a new guy , lol ?


You're right.

Sign up: Dec 2012
Post count: 100+

The troll is strong in this one.


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## Ontariojer (May 19, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Sure you did :laughing:
> 
> This is a "had to be there" thing. Can a box be tightly secured to wood lathe? It *all *depends on the circumstances. Maybe the screws will grab, maybe they wont.


I agree, but the statement was " it's ALWAYS hacky"


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> Now that's funny right there , lol ! Nothing like a guy who asks for advice then insults people when he doesn't agree with their suggestions . He must be a new guy , lol ?





Ontariojer said:


> You're right.
> 
> Sign up: Dec 2012
> Post count: 100+
> ...


Huge...go follow this thread:
*NJ Electrical License and business permit.*

..to witness a meltdown from that guy


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

metal gem with deep madisons...


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Celtic said:



> Huge...go follow this thread:
> NJ Electrical License and business permit.
> 
> ..to witness a meltdown from that guy


 WOW ! I don't think he likes you Celtic , lol ? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though , lol !


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> WOW ! I don't think he likes you Celtic , lol ? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though , lol !


I find it all rather humorous...and this is who some of us are competing against?
:laughing:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Celtic said:


> I find it all rather humorous...and this is who some of us are competing against?
> :laughing:


Oh , it's funny and scary at the same time ! I found more of his irate ramblings on here . He's pretty predictable really . The first person who says something he doesn't like , he's all over .


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

No one else has mentioned it, so... 
Here's what I do when faced with double 5/8" rock or other similar circumstances, and don't have deep madisons. (typical) 

Bend the straps so that the tabs are to one side of the main back bone, and the other strap with tabs opposite. 

Then, in the center of where your device screw would go (sheetrock) tap in your flathead screwdriver which will slightly separate the layers of rock. 

Slip the backbone of the madison into this gap. Then slide the madison into place. Do the same with the other madison. 

Now you are ready to put the wire into the box and insert the box into the hole. Assemble as normal from here.

The madisons will never fall out, but if you are close to the stud, you will find it very difficult to get the sheetrock separated.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

JohnR said:


> No one else has mentioned it, so...
> Here's what I do when faced with double 5/8" rock or other similar circumstances, and don't have deep madisons. (typical)
> 
> Bend the straps so that the tabs are to one side of the main back bone, and the other strap with tabs opposite.
> ...


That trick works slicker than sheep sh*t in double rock. Love it.

I still stand by the fact that if the lathe is still solid (IE you didn't attack it with a sawzall and used some finesse) it is more than rugged enough to hold a box in with 4 #4 wood screws, even for high use receptacles. I would use that method 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over using madison straps with plaster/lathe. I don't like the flapper boxes in plaster either since they have a tendency to press against the excess plaster that sticks out between the lathe and can weaken the plaster.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

Big John said:


> I hope that's not true, I've installed many hundreds. I'd use battleships in a heartbeat.
> 
> -John


must be a new England thing.
:thumbup:


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