# 2020 Islands and peninsulas



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is another one to drive you crazy. This entire section is new



> 210.52(C)(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces.
> 
> Receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(2)(a) and (C)(2)(b). (a)At least one receptacle outlet shall be provided for the first 0.84 m2 (9 ft2), or fraction thereof, of the countertop or work surface. A receptacle outlet shall be provided for every additional 1.7 m2 (18 ft2), or fraction thereof, of the countertop or work surface.
> (b)At least one receptacle outlet shall be located within 600 mm (2 ft) of the outer end of a peninsular countertop or work surface. Additional required receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be located as determined by the installer, designer, or building owner. The location of the receptacle outlets shall be in accordance with 210.52(C)(3).
> A peninsular countertop shall be measured from the connected perpendicular wall.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

No comment about the actual code, but why are you guys using metric now?

Are you coming to the dark side?

Cheers
John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What is the 2017 code for peninsulas? An outlet on the wall it attaches to and one at the end of the peninsula?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is what is stated but different areas interpret it differently




> (C) Countertops and Work Surfaces. In kitchens, pantries,
> breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling
> units, receptacle outlets for countertop and work surfaces shall
> be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So there was never an outlet required at the end of the peninsula before, but they now require it?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So there was never an outlet required at the end of the peninsula before, but they now require it?


See- that is what I mean-- everyone reads it differently. IMO, the 2017 is saying that there needs to be a receptacle added on the long dimension space. This has been interpreted many ways.

1- the receptacle at the wall will cover the peninsula
2- a receptacle must be added on the long dimension of the peninsula- along the length of the peninsula
3- a receptacle could be added at the end to cover the long dimension.

IMO, you needed one other but NC amended this to say that the wall receptacle would cover the peninsula


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

"(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle
outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long
dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or
greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A
peninsular countertop is measured from the connected
perpendicular wall."
*How confusing.* We know that a residential counter top 12" wide or more requires a receptacle. We also know that a peninsula or Island is also required to have a receptacle. So if a peninsula sticks out 24" from the end of counter top it's required to have a receptacle? Lets see the counter top is usually about 24" wide and an peninsula is an additional 24" that's 4 feet to the wall receptacle. So it complies with the 4 ft rule?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> So there was never an outlet required at the end of the peninsula before, but they now require it?


I'm not really sure about the end of a Peninsula. I know a recep. is required but it might also be code compliant if it's on the side? I do know for sure that receptacles are required to be less than 12" below the counter top. 210.52(C)
Kids just love tugging on cords so we don't want a crock pot hitting them in the head. Even at that height it's still too low but code allows it.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

This might explain it better.

“For many code cycles, a kitchen peninsula has been measured from the “connecting edge” which is where the peninsula countertop makes connection to the kitchen countertop. In the 2017 NEC a peninsula is now measured from the connected perpendicular wall.”

https://www.electricallicenserenewa...ation-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=238.0


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Easy said:


> "(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle
> outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long
> dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or
> greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A
> ...



The 4' rule does not affect islands and peninsulas... they have their own rule.
Beside the peninsula is measured to the wall so the receptacle at the wall counts for the first 9 sq.ft

As I see it if the peninsula is 3' wide and comes off the wall 3' then the one on the wall is all that is needed. Remember it is the countertop dimension not the base unit size


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 4' rule does not affect islands and peninsulas... they have their own rule.
> Beside the peninsula is measured to the wall so the receptacle at the wall counts for the first 9 sq.ft
> 
> As I see it if the peninsula is 3' wide and comes off the wall 3' then the one on the wall is all that is needed. Remember it is the countertop dimension not the base unit size


I see your point. My point is why even have them at all on the sides or ends of any length. They just seem dangerous for children. I don't think they allow us to put in pop up type plugs where I live but it seems like a better way to go. Hopefully Pop Up plug is even a valid electrical term.  Counter top plug.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I guess the pop-up receptacle manufacturers felt they weren't getting a big enough slice of the pie.....


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I retract my last statement. you can use this product. Ask your local inspector first. I just remember asking one and he said no. Hubbell makes a 15-Amp Duplex Tamper Resistant Residential/Commercial Pop-Out Outlet.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

We actually have a bulletin suggesting pop-ups as a way of meeting code from our AHJ.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

We were already required to install one receptacle at the end of most of them. Average peninsula is 3' wide. Until the peninsula reaches over 9' long from the wall, this rule doesn't look like anything different to me. The receptacle we installed was almost always a duplex receptacle. Half of the duplex will meet the requirements for the first 9 sq ft and the other half will serve the requirements of the next 18 sq ft. 
I read this as a 27 sq ft peninsula needs 2 receptacles, not 2 duplex receptacles. My designer told me to put the other on the end next to the 1st one. Mission Accomplished.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> No comment about the actual code, but why are you guys using metric now?
> 
> Are you coming to the dark side?
> 
> ...


Yes, the dark side of capitalism. The code went metric in 2002, I think. You see, the code is made by a business, the NFPA. They market their product to other countries as well. Some version of the NEC is used in many countries. And because most other countries don't have a backbone or the mental capacity for non-decimal systems, metric is forced upon us with American measurements in parentheses.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> Yes, the dark side of capitalism. The code went metric in 2002, I think. You see, the code is made by a business, the NFPA. They market their product to other countries as well. Some version of the NEC is used in many countries. And because most other countries don't have a backbone or the mental capacity for non-decimal systems, metric is forced upon us with American measurements in parentheses.


https://youtu.be/onhFH7jpq2c


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> Yes, the dark side of capitalism. The code went metric in 2002, I think. You see, the code is made by a business, the NFPA. They market their product to other countries as well. Some version of the NEC is used in many countries. And because most other countries don't have a backbone or the mental capacity for non-decimal systems, metric is forced upon us with American measurements in parentheses.


That is interesting, I never knew that the NEC was used outside the USA as a standard for other countries. Having said that, my impression that there are some areas in the USA that do not adopt the most current version of the NEC either.

So is the NEC an "international" document that the USA has adopted also or is it a USA document used around the world so to speak? I ask because the NFPA states it is a "global organization" but has its roots from Maine in 1850s yet one of the original members of the forerunner to the NFPA was the Canadian Fire Underwriters Association (https://www.nfpa.org/About-NFPA/NFPA-overview/History-of-NFPA).

I also never noticed until now that the NEC is produced by the NFPA (focus on Fire Prevention) vice the CEC which is produced by CSA (focus on product and installation standards). Maybe the destination is the same, but different routes to get there.

Cheers
John

Sorry for derailing the thread too...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The nec is a US document that may or may not be used elsewhere. Some countries have adopted it while others use the British Code--- British Standard BS 7671


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The nec is a US document that may or may not be used elsewhere. Some countries have adopted it while others use the British Code--- British Standard BS 7671


Other countries also use the Canadian code. Bermuda is one of them I do believe.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> That is interesting, I never knew that the NEC was used outside the USA as a standard for other countries. Having said that, my impression that there are some areas in the USA that do not adopt the most current version of the NEC either.


There is no national law to force jurisdictions to adopt any particular code. Municipalities can adopt whatever standard they choose, or write their own. It's just easier to go with a readymade standard like the NEC. I suppose it would be possible for some American jurisdiction to adopt the CEC if they wanted to.



> So is the NEC an "international" document that the USA has adopted also or is it a USA document used around the world so to speak? I ask because the NFPA states it is a "global organization" but has its roots from Maine in 1850s yet one of the original members of the forerunner to the NFPA was the Canadian Fire Underwriters Association (https://www.nfpa.org/About-NFPA/NFPA-overview/History-of-NFPA).
> 
> I also never noticed until now that the NEC is produced by the NFPA (focus on Fire Prevention) vice the CEC which is produced by CSA (focus on product and installation standards). Maybe the destination is the same, but different routes to get there.


The only destination the NEC has these days is Profit Town. The route is through manufacturers' pockets.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

New designs = new NEC codes $=$ <--> don't for get the friendly sales people they get $ I wonder how well the customer understands this?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

In California some politicians are trying to purpose underground transmission feeds to avoid any more power lines causing fires. I wonder how? Super large underground tunnels with water cooled conductors. IDK


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> Yes, the dark side of capitalism. The code went metric in 2002, I think. You see, the code is made by a business, the NFPA. They market their product to other countries as well. Some version of the NEC is used in many countries. And because most other countries don't have a backbone or the mental capacity for non-decimal systems, metric is forced upon us with American measurements in parentheses.


It was probably around that time that there was a push for harmonization of the NEC and CEC. For those of us who use both metric and imperial daily, it is a big non-issue. It’s only for the really important things in life, like football and golf, that imperial measurement is sacred.

Believe me, it has nothing to do with backbone or mental capacity and everything to do with stubbornness and refusal to learn. There is no right way or wrong way, they are just units of measure.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The system we use is stupid. Unfortunately we are stuck with it because we will never be smart enough to switch to metric.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Receptacle outlet? If that’s what you call them down there, your panel directories must be crowded.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The system we use is stupid. Unfortunately we are stuck with it because we will never be smart enough to switch to metric.


In construction, we still use imperial. Wire is measured in meters, not much else.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The only thing worse than not using metric is having to use both. So silly.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The only thing worse than not using metric is having to use both. So silly.


Using metric is silly, period.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Using metric is silly, period.


I can't imagine what would make someone ever say that other than being scared of change.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I can't imagine what would make someone ever say that other than being scared of change.


I don't find adding fractions particularly difficult, or memorizing the handful of Imperial measurements that we all regularly use. 

Like most people under age 40 or so , I learned metric in school for an early age. I'm fluent in it, but have zero need for it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I don't find adding fractions particularly difficult, or memorizing the handful of Imperial measurements that we all regularly use.


 No one said it's difficult. What you are doing is defending something that is downright idiotic, for no other reason than you are scared of change.

What other reason would you defend such nonsense? It's literally bravado that you are using here, isn't that a sin?



> Like most people under age 40 or so , I learned metric in school for an early age. I'm fluent in it, but have zero need for it.


 We have no need for it because we use a very, very, very stupid system in it's place, and people like you are unwilling to change. Our system was literally pulled out of many different people's asses and all smooshed together.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No one said it's difficult. What you are doing is defending something that is downright idiotic, for no other reason than you are scared of change.
> 
> What other reason would you defend such nonsense? It's literally bravado that you are using here, isn't that a sin?
> 
> We have no need for it because we use a very, very, very stupid system in it's place, and people like you are unwilling to change. Our system was literally pulled out of many different people's asses and all smooshed together.


:sleep1:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :sleep1:


Exactly, you have no reason. Just afraid of change. 

I'm willing to bet you have said a few times how metric is gay like the French. Be honest, you have, haven't you?? :vs_laugh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Exactly, you have no reason. Just afraid of change.
> 
> I'm willing to bet you have said a few times how metric is gay like the French. Be honest, you have, haven't you?? :vs_laugh:


There is no need for the change whatsoever. But you have to always project your own beliefs on everyone else, which is why you keep saying I'm afraid of change. I'm all for change if it's needed and beneficial to society. I see zero benefit to changing our system of measurements in a country this large and accustomed to using English/Imperial measurement. 

I'm on record as saying that metric is communist. Please get it right.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> There is no need for the change whatsoever.


 I agree that a change would be hard. And because of that, I am not saying that we should change. I am just saying that our system is extremely stupid and metric is better. 



> But you have to always project your own beliefs on everyone else,


 That's funny coming from you. Tell me again how much sinning I have done today based on your beliefs :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I agree that a change would be hard. And because of that, I am not saying that we should change. I am just saying that our system is extremely stupid and metric is better.


Is it more cumbersome? Of course. Is it an "extremely stupid" system? Not at all. 





> That's funny coming from you. Tell me again how much sinning I have done today based on your beliefs :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


The difference is I don't regularly argue with people to the point of oblivion about it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Is it more cumbersome? Of course. Is it an "extremely stupid" system? Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I got you to nerdrage across 2 threads :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

Much better than :sleep1: or "I see"

:biggrin::biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> But I got you to nerdrage across 2 threads :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> Much better than :sleep1: or "I see"
> 
> :biggrin::biggrin:


Nah, you're just doing what you always do which is engage in constant, repetitious argumentation. If not with me, it will be with someone else, just like clockwork.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Nah, you're just doing what you always do which is engage in constant, repetitious argumentation. If not with me, it will be with someone else, just like clockwork.


I see.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I see.



Now that was funny. :vs_laugh:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is another one to drive you crazy. This entire section is new


The 2 foot rule will be one to remember if I ever do another kitchen. NEC words stuff in such a way that you have to read it several times. I think it could be much more condensed or even have 2 code books. One for residential and one for everything else. My memory skill are poor and after reading the section you posted I almost fell asleep. I guess if you like puzzles and exercises that enhance the brain, than it a good read. I promise to read it again so I catch on. It would be real nice if you just gave us a drawing.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Easy said:


> It would be real nice if you just gave us a drawing.


Not like you are asking for too much are you????:vs_laugh:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

99cents said:


> Receptacle outlet? If that’s what you call them down there, your panel directories must be crowded.


Plug is a better space saver and I always describe them as such in a panel.
Is it the same as in Canada? Maybe the NEC will come up with a symbol for plugs and lights. They could be small stickers that you could peal out just like the numbers booklets. Maybe improve on the glue they use but why not. 
The panel directories / panel legends are always too small.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A plug has male prongs and is located at the end of a cord. You plug a plug into a receptacle.

A receptacle is the device in a wall to accept plugs.

A receptacle is one of the many different types of outlets you can have. While we often interchange outlet and receptacle, an outlet is actually other things such as an electrical box used for a light.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> A plug has male prongs and is located at the end of a cord. You plug a plug into a receptacle.
> 
> A receptacle is the device in a wall to accept plugs.
> 
> A receptacle is one of the many different types of outlets you can have. While we often interchange outlet and receptacle, an outlet is actually other things such as an electrical box used for a light.


Yes this is true. A plug is also refereed to as a cord body or cord cap but all the manufactures do call them plugs. It would be a real bummer if you ordered a 200 amp ark tight plug and you really need a receptacle. I just figured the average home owner understands the term plug. But yes very good point.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MTW said:


> Nah, you're just doing what you always do which is engage in constant, repetitious argumentation. If not with me, it will be with someone else, just like clockwork.


I blame it all on NAFTA. It sucks when you have to pull out both metric and standard wrenches gust to repair your dishwasher. :vs_laugh:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Easy said:


> Yes this is true. A plug is also refereed to as a cord body or cord cap but all the manufactures do call them plugs. It would be a real bummer if you ordered a 200 amp ark tight plug and you really need a receptacle. *I just figured the average home owner understands the term plug.* But yes very good point.



Does HO terminology really make a difference in a professional forum?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Easy said:


> I blame it all on NAFTA. It sucks when you have to pull out both metric and standard wrenches gust to repair your dishwasher. :vs_laugh:



Forget the dishwasher, but the mix sucks on the old John Deere!


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