# Panel backer board



## HackWork

When installing a panel in a basement on a block or cast wall I have always mounted a pair of PT 2x4's and then a plywood backer board just because that's the way it's usually done.

Why? Other then a place to staple wires, is there any other reason?

On the last couple panel upgrades I did, the customers wanted the panel as close to the wall as possible (for whe they finish the basement later). So I ripped off all the old wood, stuck a thick piece of roofing rubber to the back of the panel, then tapconed it directly to the block wall. It worked well and was easy. I have a 16" roll of roofing rubber so it cost me nothing.

Any issue with that that I may be missing?


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## MTW

Nothing I can see. Although B4T would call you a hack for doing it that way.


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## frenchelectrican

HackWork said:


> When installing a panel in a basement on a block or cast wall I have always mounted a pair of PT 2x4's and then a plywood backer board just because that's the way it's usually done.
> 
> Why? Other then a place to staple wires, is there any other reason?
> 
> On the last couple panel upgrades I did, the customers wanted the panel as close to the wall as possible (for whe they finish the basement later). So I ripped off all the old wood, stuck a thick piece of roofing rubber to the back of the panel, then tapconed it directly to the block wall. It worked well and was easy. I have a 16" roll of roofing rubber so it cost me nothing.
> 
> Any issue with that that I may be missing?


Ya mean roofing membeane sheeting ?? those are about a inch thick ?

That is little unuseal one I ever heard but how long it going hang vertically on the wall that I dont know but if you did use plywood as backer then use roofing meberane then I dont see too much a issue but being a unuseal one that got my attetion something I havent think about it.,,


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## HackWork

frenchelectrican said:


> Ya mean roofing membeane sheeting ?? those are about a inch thick ?
> 
> That is little unuseal one I ever heard but how long it going hang vertically on the wall that I dont know but if you did use plywood as backer then use roofing meberane then I dont see too much a issue but being a unuseal one that got my attetion something I havent think about it.,,


No, it's just thick rubber with an adhesive back for patching rubber roofs.

I did not use any plywood, I screwed the panel directly to the wall. The rubber is just so that the panel doesn't rust due to the moisture in the masonry, I've read that building inspectors have failed installations for that. Although we put pipe and boxes on basement walls all the time so I don't know...


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## joebanana

Why not go directly to the wall with Tapcon's? If you need some wood to staple cables to, Tapcon a piece of 3/4" ply above the panel.


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## MTW

Once scenario that comes to mind is how many houses here are built into sloped lots, resulting in the front foundation wall being 9-10' or more, depending on the grade. If the panel is on that front wall or side walls near the corners (as it often is), the plywood is a must to have a nice looking installation. Some basement walls are pretty short and don't need much above the panel for stapling, but often times it's needed.


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## frenchelectrican

HackWork said:


> No, it's just thick rubber with an adhesive back for patching rubber roofs.
> 
> I did not use any plywood, I screwed the panel directly to the wall. The rubber is just so that the panel doesn't rust due to the moisture in the masonry, I've read that building inspectors have failed installations for that. Although we put pipe and boxes on basement walls all the time so I don't know...


ahh Ok thanks for clear it up Hack.,,

I think the reason why most inspectors fail that due rubber is combustable but nonconductive so it work two ways on that. 

if the inspector look at that and I dont know what they will say on that.,, but personally that is good way to combat the moistuire issue .,,


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## HackWork

joebanana said:


> Why not go directly to the wall with Tapcon's? If you need some wood to staple cables to, Tapcon a piece of 3/4" ply above the panel.


That's what I am talking about doing.


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## frenchelectrican

joebanana said:


> Why not go directly to the wall with Tapcon's? If you need some wood to staple cables to, Tapcon a piece of 3/4" ply above the panel.


That is my perfered way just tapconed it driectally and be done with it.

I have see alot of new home built by slap the panel driectally on basement wall and tapconned.,


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## papaotis

around here anyting that touches concrete has to have a treated backer. i just 3/4 inch treated plywood($35 a sheet here) have them cut it inti 2' strips and thats my backer. room for pnone, cable etc.


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## MechanicalDVR

papaotis said:


> around here anyting that touches concrete has to have a treated backer. i just 3/4 inch treated plywood($35 a sheet here) have them cut it inti 2' strips and thats my backer. room for pnone, cable etc.


Building code requirement?


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## papaotis

the treated on concrete? yes. treated plates on the floor, treated anywhere the wood is against concrete or block below grade. and sometimes above grade


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## RePhase277

Every panel I've ever seen mounted to a concrete or block wall below grade has been a rusted out piece of chit. Old buildings didn't have Drylok and membranes on the outside of the concrete. In an old basement, if you don't frame out with wood, the panel will disintegrate in a much shorter time frame than if it were above grade.


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## HackWork

That's what the rubber is for.


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## Southeast Power

How about using a tapcon through couple of galvanized washers between the wall and the enclosure?


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## splatz

I would worry that the rubber will work as well as you hope, it may actually make it worse, water vapor will condense between the rubber and the metal. 

I'd just mount it on short strut if you want a low profile mount. Maybe spray the back of the tub with cold galv. If it's damp, I'd put a washer between the strut and the concrete for a little air so the strut doesn't rot. 

Instead of the usual plywood backer on 2x4 furring strips, you could build two studs on either side of the panel. This seems like it would be easier for them to frame around if they do finish the basement. You could just put colorado jims above and below to secure cables.


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## Southeast Power

I Think I would have used some bull to stick the rubber to the wall.
Also, the enclosure would be squeezed tight against the rubber. I wouldn't expect too much air exchange.

It just seems odd to me to introduce an organic material into an area considered wet.


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## drspec

Ive never used a backer board here. Always slapped the panel up with plastic anchors and 1 1/2" screws.


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## 99cents

I have never seen wood rot around here on a basement wall. Something about the rubber bothers me, though. What about 3/4" pressure treated plywood? If that's too thick, maybe an air gap using stainless steel hardware. 

I don't use Tapcons. Will they rust out after a while?


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## splatz

99cents said:


> I have never seen wood rot around here on a basement wall. Something about the rubber bothers me, though. What about 3/4" pressure treated plywood? If that's too thick, maybe an air gap using stainless steel hardware.
> 
> I don't use Tapcons. Will they rust out after a while?


I am not a fan of tapcons. You do see rusted tapcons just looking around. I think the paint chips off of them when they're going in and later the rust and there's not much meat to them if they do start rusting. I'll use them for some things, more like conduit clips, not mounting equipment. 

My first choice for most things is lag shields and galvanized lag screws. I've been using them for like 30 years now and I don't think I've ever had one rust out on me. I don't think the shield is ferrous metal.


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## eddy current

I like the rubber idea Hack. Will outlast just screwing it to the concrete for sure.

Around here we used to have a code that made us put panels on a sheet of drywall, even if you put plywood first. Was a major PITA.


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## 99cents

I don't know, your mounting holes are dimpled out (bad description) so the panel has an air gap behind it. The only concern should be the actual points of contact to the concrete. Would it be better to use non-rusting fasteners and washers?


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## lighterup

I use tap cons ..but now that you bring rust into the equation ...one time
I was drilling a pilot hole withe the accompanying bit (that comes w/ tap cons)
and when I withdrew the bit from the wall a steady stream of water came out 
(not trickling either ...came out like one was pissing) The wall was filled with 
water.

I like splatz idea...since the HO wants a future finished basement , put in (2)
studs and mount panel to studs.


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## 99cents

When they frame out a wall here for a basement, they always leave an air gap between the stud wall and the concrete. Including drywall, you have a minimum of 4 1/2" of room to play with.


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## daveEM

We insulate up here. So plywood on 2x4's then the panel.

They just think they need that extra Sq. footage that the panel takes up.

Silly ****s used to use 2x2s to frame out basements at one time.


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## lighterup

99cents said:


> When they frame out a wall here for a basement, they always leave an air gap between the stud wall and the concrete. Including drywall, you have a minimum of 4 1/2" of room to play with.


yep..same here


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> I am not a fan of tapcons. You do see rusted tapcons just looking around. I think the paint chips off of them when they're going in and later the rust and there's not much meat to them if they do start rusting. I'll use them for some things, more like conduit clips, not mounting equipment.
> 
> *My first choice for most things is lag shields and galvanized lag screws. I've been using them for like 30 years now and I don't think I've ever had one rust out on me.* I don't think the shield is ferrous metal.



Tapcons have never been the way I mount panels or similar enclosures.

Nor have I ever seen one that has been in for years fail from corrosion. They have always been lead shields in the past maybe now with new regulations on lead they are made from something else.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> When they frame out a wall here for a basement, they always leave an air gap between the stud wall and the concrete. Including drywall, you have a minimum of 4 1/2" of room to play with.


They use 2X3's or lay 2x's on the flat side when finishing basements. You never know what they are going to do to get every available inch.


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## MechanicalDVR

The more I think about this the more I like the idea of mounting the panel between two studs as it would be if they framed out the basement prior to mounting and using a flush cover.

As for rust and condensation:

Of all the badly rusted panels I can recall the bottoms were rusted out and not sure I can recall the backs ever being rusting out.

We all think nothing of mounting a disconnect right on a masonry wall with no backer so why is a panel any different really?

The only difference between an indoor panel and an exterior panel is the attempt to shed water from entering the panel and not the finish. The backs don't rot out when mounted outside on brick/block/cement walls.


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## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> The more I think about this the more I like the idea of mounting the panel between two studs as it would be if they framed out the basement prior to mounting and using a flush cover.


 That goes against what I am looking to do, though. 

I don't want to deal with lumber and I want to make the installation easier, not harder. I also don't want to set the position of the future wall.



> As for rust and condensation:
> 
> Of all the badly rusted panels I can recall the bottoms were rusted out and not sure I can recall the backs ever being rusting out.


 Exactly. The bottom gets rusted out from the water coming in theu the service entrance cable or pipe. I never see an issue with the back of the panel or the lumber getting wet. So that's why I figured mounting the panel to the wall would be fine, especially with the rubber. 



> We all think nothing of mounting a disconnect right on a masonry wall with no backer so why is a panel any different really?
> 
> The only difference between an indoor panel and an exterior panel is the attempt to shed water from entering the panel and not the finish. The backs don't rot out when mounted outside on brick/block/cement walls.


Yup :thumbsup:


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## sbrn33

I don't believe I have ever used a backer board. Just do not see the need for it. Sometime when it is a really ****ty basement wall I may use strut though.


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## HackWork

This is great, no more backboards for me :thumbsup:

The only problem is that my brand new M12 circular saw will never get used again. I should send it out to macmikeman because the potato he uses to cut pieces of lumber doesn't work very well. But he won't give me his mailing address.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> That goes against what I am looking to do, though.
> 
> I don't want to deal with lumber and I want to make the installation easier, not harder. I also don't want to set the position of the future wall.


Yeah I should have said in general not in regard for your install. If a HO is going to finish the basement it's just seems like a good idea in general.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> They use 2X3's or lay 2x's on the flat side when finishing basements. You never know what they are going to do to get every available inch.


Then you're screwed anyway. Your panel will stick out of your finished wall regardless.

Only an idiot would frame out a wall like that, although it's not always a good idea to call a customer an idiot .


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## MechanicalDVR

sbrn33 said:


> I don't believe I have ever used a backer board. Just do not see the need for it. Sometime when it is a really ****ty basement wall I may use strut though.


Doing more commercial type work I've mounted more to strut than anything else.


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## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yeah I should have said in general not in regard for your install. If a HO is going to finish the basement it's just seems like a good idea in general.


Oh if they are finishing the basement at the time, then I would definitely mount it between the studs. 

But in these cases they were going to finish the basement in the future so the goal was to keep the panel back as far as possible and let them frame in front of it however they want, then they will put in a little access door.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Then you're screwed anyway. Your panel will stick out of your finished wall regardless.
> 
> Only an idiot would frame out a wall like that, although it's not always a good idea to call a customer an idiot .


If the customer uses 2X3's an inch away from the wall, my panel will be flush with the drywall.

Often times there are obstructions along the walls that force the finished wall to be set out a bit, so they use smaller lumber to gain back some of the space.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> If the customer uses 2X3's an inch away from the wall, my panel will be flush with the drywall.
> 
> Often times there are obstructions along the walls that force the finished wall to be set out a bit, so they use smaller lumber to gain back some of the space.


The last trend I saw while living in NJ was metal shallow studs (1.5"-2") mounted an inch or so away from the outer wall, so you'd still be good.


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## 99cents

It would drive me crazy trying to deal with weekend warriors trying to re-invent the wheel and cobble together renovations. Generally, there's a right way and wrong way to do things and it's not my job to anticipate that an HO is going to do things the wrong way sometime in the future. My first responsibility is the integrity of the electrical installation.

I guess I don't tolerate dumbasses well.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> It would drive me crazy trying to deal with weekend warriors trying to re-invent the wheel and cobble together renovations. Generally, there's a right way and wrong way to do things and it's not my job to anticipate that an HO is going to do things the wrong way sometime in the future. My first responsibility is the integrity of the electrical installation.
> 
> I guess I don't tolerate dumbasses well.


The way basement finishing is done has changed dramatically in my lifetime.

From furring strips cut nailed to the block when I was a kid to Owens Corning fiberglass panels being used now with no framing at all.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> It would drive me crazy trying to deal with weekend warriors trying to re-invent the wheel and cobble together renovations. Generally, there's a right way and wrong way to do things and it's not my job to anticipate that an HO is going to do things the wrong way sometime in the future. My first responsibility is the integrity of the electrical installation.
> 
> I guess I don't tolerate dumbasses well.


I really don't know what you are talking about. Everything I have said applies to having a professional framing company come in and do the work in the future.


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> I really don't know what you are talking about. Everything I have said applies to having a professional framing company come in and do the work in the future.


I'm not questioning your work, Hack, I'm questioning the wisdom of framing out with flat 2 X 4's or even framing out with 2 X 3's. The net gain in square footage is virtually nothing.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> I'm not questioning your work, Hack, I'm questioning the wisdom of framing out with flat 2 X 4's or even framing out with 2 X 3's. The net gain in square footage is virtually nothing.


What is wrong with it? 

2x4's or 2x6's make sense in normal walls in order to give space for insulation, electrical, mechanical, etc. But when building off of a basement wall with obstructions, what is wrong with using smaller lumber? It's very common and I don't see an issue.

The only time it's an issue is when it's up against the foundation wall and you can't fit electrical boxes into the cavity. But when the wall is being built a few inches off of the foundation wall to make room for obstructions, there is nothing wrong with it.

So your post about the right and wrong way, dumbasses, and weekend warriors just seems out of place.


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## drspec

I remember back 15 - 20 years ago we had new construction and remodels where they would flat frame with 1x4s

want to talk about a pita

no way what we did was legal with furring boxes and devices.


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## splatz

I'd still put the studs, if they want to frame with furring strips and get that extra two inches of floor space, they're going to have to frame and drywall around a little jog in the wall, same as if it was a structural column or etc. Little jogs like that are not blemishes they are features.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> I'm not questioning your work, Hack, I'm questioning the wisdom of framing out with flat 2 X 4's or even framing out with 2 X 3's. The net gain in square footage is virtually nothing.


If there is 2" styrofoam glued to all the walls and they frame 1" out from the foam with 1 1/2" or 2" metal studs you have room for 1900s and mud rings.

So what is the big deal?


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## 3DDesign

If it's below grade moisture will permeate the block or concrete basement wall.
It will condensate on the metal of the panel.
We always mount 3/4" Plywood first.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> If there is 2" styrofoam glued to all the walls and they frame 1" out from the foam with 1 1/2" or 2" metal studs you have room for 1900s and mud rings.
> 
> So what is the big deal?


You guys do strange things down there.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> You guys do strange things down there.


It works really well from what I see and read.


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## lighterup

99cents said:


> You guys do strange things down there.


I know what your saying and they do crap like that here...not 
necessarily to gain a couple inches , but to cut corners on costs
cause 2x2's are cheaper than 2 x4's.Cheap bastards.:laughing:

I've made it a point to clarify in my bids for finished basements that
the cost is based on 2x4 constructed walls cause I think it's a royal
PITA to show up with 22cu nail ons only to find out I needed those
shallow 4" square nail=ons & plaster rings , not to mention needing 
stackets everywhere.


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> It works really well from what I see and read.


Just put up a 2x4 stud wall with an air gap, insulate, vapor barrier, done. Easy.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Just put up a 2x4 stud wall with an air gap, insulate, vapor barrier, done. Easy.


Wood can grow mold!


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## 99cents

lighterup said:


> I know what your saying and they do crap like that here...not
> necessarily to gain a couple inches , but to cut corners on costs
> cause 2x2's are cheaper than 2 x4's.Cheap bastards.:laughing:
> 
> I've made it a point to clarify in my bids for finished basements that
> the cost is based on 2x4 constructed walls cause I think it's a royal
> PITA to show up with 22cu nail ons only to find out I needed those
> shallow 4" square nail=ons & plaster rings , not to mention needing
> stackets everywhere.


I don't see how it could be a money saver, though, when you're installing 2" Styrofoam first. Here, a 24" X 96" X 2" piece of rigid insulation is $40.00.


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## lighterup

99cents said:


> I don't see how it could be a money saver, though, when you're installing 2" Styrofoam first.


I wasn't saying it made sense.I am saying I prefer 2x4 constructed 
walls for wiring as well as setting a panel


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## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> Wood can grow mold!


Where did I say wood? Put in your steel studs if you like.


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## 99cents

lighterup said:


> I wasn't saying it made sense.I am saying I prefer 2x4 constructed
> walls for wiring as well as setting a panel


I do too. I think we're saying the same thing using different words  .


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## Switched

This is all useless talk.... Just get rid of the basements, that's what we did out West!

.... And what a PITA it is not to have one, besides when it is 110 outside, that basement feels pretty damn nice!


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> *I'd still put the studs*, if they want to frame with furring strips and get that extra two inches of floor space, they're going to have to frame and drywall around a little jog in the wall, same as if it was a structural column or etc. Little jogs like that are not blemishes they are features.


I'm glad in a thread about making things easier and not dealing with lumber anymore, you now want to get into framing and installing top plates, bottom plates, and studs to hold the panel up :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## splatz

HackWork said:


> I'm glad in a thread about making things easier and not dealing with lumber anymore, you now want to get into framing and installing top plates, bottom plates, and studs to hold the panel up :laughing::laughing::laughing:


I think my way is probably faster most of the time. About 15-20 minutes. 

It doesn't have to meet building codes for a wall, it just has to be adequate for the panel. 

Screw or nail (nails are for carpenters) 2 studs to the floor joists above. Unless they are 16" OC you'll want to scab 2' of 2x4 there as a top plate / nailer. 

Measure and cut the two studs. 

Set 2' of pressure treated 2x4 to the floor with two anchors directly below. Rest the studs on this while you attach on top. (toe nail / screw...) 

Toe nail / screw to the 2x4 on the floor, square things up, then anchor the 2x4 to the floor. 

Everything but the studs could be cut out when they frame it out and the studs sistered up to the studs of the framing. Totally flexible. 

No plywood to buy, no sawhorses necessary, no circular saw needed, you can do it with a hand saw. Cheaper. 

I hope your father doesn't see this thread he'd be so embarrassed.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> I think my way is probably faster most of the time. About 15-20 minutes.


 Faster?!?!!? There is no way that your idea is faster than laying a piece of rubber on the back of the panel and tapconing it to the wall.



> It doesn't have to meet building codes for a wall, it just has to be adequate for the panel.


 But it's gotta be in spec with what the customer is going to do with the wall in the future, or else it is going to be an impediment to his work. As I mentioned in the first post, the whole point of the 2 installations I did like this is because the customer didn't want the panel to affect the future finishing of the basement. Installing a small wall like you propose would be going directly against that.



> I hope your father doesn't see this thread he'd be so embarrassed.


My father got me the roll of rubber from one of his jobs for this exact purpose.


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## splatz

Oh no I meant faster than the usual plywood backer board on two 2x4s, not faster than just fastening it to the wall with either your rubber or a spacer. Short of sticking it to the wall with double sided tape you can't beat that for time. 

Since the studs don't add any depth to the tub I think they would be easy to work into their final plan to finish the space any way they go.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> Oh no I meant faster than the usual plywood backer board on two 2x4s, not faster than just fastening it to the wall with either your rubber or a spacer.


 Plywood backer boards are made up in the shop, 8 at a time.

Tapconing a backerboard to the wall is much quicker than framing a wall. Installing a backerboard doesn't require sawhorses or circular saws anymore than framing a wall. You can use a handsaw in both if you choose.



> Since the studs don't add any depth to the tub I think they would be easy to work into their final plan to finish the space any way they go.


You and I see eye to eye on many things. This just isn't going to be one of them. It's bad for the customer and for me. There's no benefit, it's all negatives. Even the simple things like not being able to use all the KOs on the side of the panel. And for what reason? Why build a monstrosity in the customer's basement when the wall is right there begging to hold that panel up for you? :laughing:


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## HackWork

Now that I won't be needing them anymore, does anyone need some plywood backerboards? :thumbup:


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## splatz

I'll buy them. 


HackWork said:


> Now that I won't be needing them anymore, does anyone need some plywood backerboards? :thumbup:
> 
> 
> View attachment 107138


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## HackWork

The A-Frame is for sale too.


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## 99cents

splatz said:


> I'll buy them.


Damn you, splatz. I was going to get him to send them free, prepaid shipping  .


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Now that I won't be needing them anymore, does anyone need some plywood backerboards? :thumbup:
> 
> 
> View attachment 107138


If I was in the area I'd have come picked em up and dropped you off a coffee and bagel.


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## splatz

All seriousness even if I still like my current method at the end of the day, I enjoy talking about other ways to do things, keeps work interesting.


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## Jlarson

I just use stainless nuts between the wall and can as little stand offs if I'm not using strut. 

I don't drive a van filled with Rubbermaid tubs so wood is out of the question for me.


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## MechanicalDVR

Jlarson said:


> I just use stainless nuts between the wall and can as little stand offs if I'm not using strut.
> 
> *I don't drive a van filled with Rubbermaid tubs so wood is out of the question for me.*


:blink:

You lost me there bro.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> All seriousness even if I still like my current method at the end of the day, I enjoy talking about other ways to do things, keeps work interesting.


I like your idea of the studs for panel mounting.

If it arose again I'd measure the height of the space and the distance between the floor joists and make up the 'frame' outside take it to the spot and screw it in place and shoot it or screw it to the floor.


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## HackWork

Look at this panel, all neat and unsuspecting...











Then splatz and Mech come along and ruin everything











Darn you!!!!


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Look at this panel, all neat and unsuspecting...
> 
> 
> View attachment 107186
> 
> 
> 
> Then splatz and Mech come along and ruin everything
> 
> 
> View attachment 107178
> 
> 
> 
> Darn you!!!!


Gee I thought it was just plain ugly in the first pic.


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## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> Gee I thought it was just plain ugly in the first pic.


I see you and splatz are outsourcing the structure to hold up your next panel:


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## splatz

I want to use that thing to rack up my spools, I'll get an awesome discount with million footers. :thumbsup::thumbsup:



HackWork said:


> I see you and splatz are outsourcing the structure to hold up your next panel:
> 
> View attachment 107250


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> I see you and splatz are outsourcing the structure to hold up your next panel:
> 
> 
> View attachment 107250


Well, it's a small industrial job.


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## MTW

Switched said:


> This is all useless talk.... Just get rid of the basements, that's what we did out West!
> 
> .... And what a PITA it is not to have one, besides when it is 110 outside, that basement feels pretty damn nice!


Here's what I don't get. You have astronomically high real estate costs in California and other parts of the country that don't have basements. Why don't more builders offer a basement option and make better use of that expensive land?


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> Look at this panel, all neat and unsuspecting...


Is that a Canadian installation? I'm guessing it is, or else the circuits would enter into the top.


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## HackWork

MTW said:


> Here's what I don't get. You have astronomically high real estate costs in California and other parts of the country that don't have basements. Why don't more builders offer a basement option and make better use of that expensive land?


I understand there are a lot of areas in which there are either rock problems or water problems. But other than that, I don't know why they don't use basements more.

Like you said, basements make a lot of sense. They are much cheaper to build than going outwards or upwards. It's funny seeing a house with a 4' crawlspace, why not just go 3-4 more feet and double your square footage?

I've also noticed a lot of areas have mostly 1 story houses. Going upwards is generally cheaper than going outwards, especially with high real estate costs like you mentioned.


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## Switched

MTW said:


> Here's what I don't get. You have astronomically high real estate costs in California and other parts of the country that don't have basements. Why don't more builders offer a basement option and make better use of that expensive land?


Simply... They don't have to. They do whatever they want, which is the absolute minimum, and then charge astronomical prices for it....

There is so much buildable land all over this state, but the state, the business, the leaders and the people are all dumb... That is it, they are just dumb.


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## Switched

HackWork said:


> I understand there are a lot of areas in which there are either rock problems or water problems. But other than that, I don't know why they don't use basements more.
> 
> Like you said, basements make a lot of sense. They are much cheaper to build than going outwards or upwards. It's funny seeing a house with a 4' crawlspace, why not just go 3-4 more feet and double your square footage?
> 
> I've also noticed a lot of areas have mostly 1 story houses. Going upwards is generally cheaper than going outwards, especially with high real estate costs like you mentioned.


4'... that is like 2' more than they give us! 95% of new homes here, probably since the 70's are slab on grade. That is so cheap to frame up and pour...


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## MechanicalDVR

Switched said:


> 4'... that is like 2' more than they give us! 95% of new homes here, probably since the 70's are slab on grade. That is so cheap to frame up and pour...


Sounds all about the dollars exclusively.

Never seen a McMansion in NJ that really doesn't have a full basement or at least a huge basement and a couple attached 6' crawlspaces for mechanicals.

Some basements I've been in have more steel structural members than a small high rise.

Been in a couple with sub basements for elevator pits and pump rooms.


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## 99cents

Something about the rubber bothers me. If you have high humidity levels in the house, like we do in the winter, it may condense on rubber mounted on a cold wall. The problem becomes one of moisture collecting from the inside, not the outside. Maybe I'm being picky. I like the idea of standoffs better.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Something about the rubber bothers me. If you have high humidity levels in the house, like we do in the winter, it may condense on rubber mounted on a cold wall. The problem becomes one of moisture collecting from the inside, not the outside. Maybe I'm being picky. I like the idea of standoffs better.


 In the situation you describe wqter would condense on anything of that temperature. Not just rubber.

What's the difference between a 13 inch piece of rubber on the wall and full sheets of plastic that are put up on the wall? Or the wood framing members that are just as cold? If you have a basement that is that cold and wet, that's when mold forms


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## 99cents

HackWork said:


> In the situation you describe wqter would condense on anything of that temperature. Not just rubber.
> 
> What's the difference between a 13 inch piece of rubber on the wall and full sheets of plastic that are put up on the wall? Or the wood framing members that are just as cold? If you have a basement that is that cold and wet, that's when mold forms


Like I say, I'm probably being picky. I have seen frost on concrete basement walls in the winter. We might deal with different things up here; just a different mindset. I just like the idea of an air gap.


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Like I say, I'm probably being picky. I have seen frost on concrete basement walls in the winter. We might deal with different things up here; just a different mindset. I just like the idea of an air gap.


 I understand what you're saying, but any issue that you're talking about would be an issue in itself. Putting a little 13 inch patch of rubber on the wall isn't going to make anything worse. It's like someone hanging a picture on the wall. 

The reason I don't like standoffs alone is because I worry about the moisture from the block vaporizing into the air behind the panel and then immediately condensing on the back of the colder panel.


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## 99cents

Jeebus, are we actually being polite to each other, Hack?

Is it okay if I say that putting rubber behind a panel sucks donkey ballz and anybody who does it is maggot chit? I'm only asking because I respect your opinion  .


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## HackWork

99cents said:


> Jeebus, are we actually being polite to each other, Hack?
> 
> Is it okay if I say that putting rubber behind a panel sucks donkey ballz and anybody who does it is maggot chit? I'm only asking because I respect your opinion  .


Most technical threads we get along in. It's only when you let your liberal out that I have to spank you.


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## 99cents

Now I'm offended.


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## MechanicalDVR

99cents said:


> Now I'm offended.



Only a lib would be offended....:whistling2:











:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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