# do i need to RCD 16A socket outlets



## davidmorris0107

hi, can anybody answer me this please? if i have a 16A 400v socket outlet for a specific use do i need to protect it with a RCD? Also the same question in relation to 16A & 32A 110v sockets situated around a mechanical workshop where they are intended for general use, its the voltage issues that are baffling me as i cant find anything in relation to this in the 17th edition regs. any help would be appreciated, many thanks................Dave :confused1::help:


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## sparkie

what you need to ask yourself is the installation under the supervision of an instructed or skilled person. commercial and industrial with a maintenance man and only authorized equipment would qualify.
A house or restaurant would not as these would not be supervised and are ordinary person.

hope this helps


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## davidmorris0107

*a veiw shared!*

Thanks for reply, you seem to share the same veiws as me and being a mechanical/electrical workshop you would have to hope the operators were skilled in using the equipment. This should help in my argument with colleagues that insist on everything being covered by RCD! (even though we have just attended the 17th edition update course where this was quite a heavily covered topic!) Thanks again............Dave


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## sparkie

forgive me for not quoting regs or onsite guide, because it's deep snow here and books in the van. but the onsite guide has a page that states as I said.
try looking for socket outlets or similar in index.

Personally I think if the installation is supervised as previously stated that you can argue instructed person/nuisance tripping and all within equi-potential zone and only authorized equipment- thats what our scheme provider agreed on our yearly assessment.


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## frank

Now for my pennyworth.

Forget BS7671. Think HSE. Unless you can argue that nuisance tripping may be a factor in the operation of the machinery then utilise RCD's.

Even 110 volts center tapped at 55Volts a current of ) 0.0275 can flow through a normal body resistance of 2000 ohms.. Well within permissable 30mA
Be safe and fit RCD's


Frank


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## sparkie

While we have differing views:thumbsup:
a socket labelled for specific fixed equipment *
does not have to be rcd protected.*

What you need to do is speak to the client, explain greater cost and safety v nuisance tripping.
for me 
Electricity at work regulations and Factories Act *Statutory*
BS7671 *Non Statutory*

You don't say how big this install is but be bigger it is the more it will be massively more expensive on rcbo's.


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## frank

Thats it Sparkie. When the Judge says Why did you not consider this - he will quote HSE and EAW Acts. For me they overide ALL other considerations and if the client does not want to follow my advice I get him to sign a disclaimer. BE SAFE. NOT SORRY.

Frank


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## sparkie

As before BS7671 is *not statutory* and following guidance from it as described you don't need RCD.

What you have to look at is we managed for years with split load boards, for that matter TNCS and no rcd.
Relatively even with bodging DIY electrical the accident rate is low.

If you went into factories and quoted to change every breaker to rcbo you would be thrown out. 
At Least 4 times as expensive, 
HSE use BS7671 as guidance in court cases-advice I give follows it's guidance.

Unskilled ordinary persons/wet areas and area's outside Equipotential zone yes I agree rcd or rcbo



Without looking for an argument Frank what percentage of your work is commercial/industrial?


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## frank

Sparkie.

I do half each of commercial and industrial. In both cases there is much overlap into the construction industry. ( non residential). The Companies I work for are Blue Chip and their Engineers follow EAW Act to the 'T'. BS7671 is not good enough for them. SO - when quoting or doing works on a day basis I follow that rule and assume that the worst can happen, as it usually does. It would be foolish to install retrospectively but there is no reason not to consider RCD/RBO protection for new work.

Frank

PS. As for accidents. I can give countless examples of works we have rectified or uncovered that have given fault shocks or would have under fault conditions using no residual protection. And to add to the former - examples of shock incidents even with RCD/RBO protection. We need to get away from the view that RCD's etc protect against electric shock. They don't. Overcurrent earth path currents yes - but even this is no guarantee. I believe the industry standard RCD failure rate in fault circumstances is 6%. I think for the foregoing reason in Construction / workshop situations full protection is required where practical. TNC and TT systems are prone to loosing earth paths so where there is the slightest danger of live metalwork 'Blue Chip Co's like to have the braces and the belt.

Frank


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## sparkie

a favorable position to be in, 
Unfortunately in our area companies will not pay the extra investment in full rcd / rcbo protection.

If they would the margin would be even better:thumbsup:


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