# Pumps & Controls!!!



## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

It sounds like you have excellent previous experience for this job. The VFD skills come quickly if they are used regularly. The system problem (trouble shooting) skills are the thing that either makes or breaks you in this type job, If you already understand the system workings, you are way ahead on this part. The most necessary skill, for repairing systems, is to be a good detective. Also, never assume that the apparent or indicated problem is the root cause. Often the solution will require an educated guess that is different from what is seemingly indicated.

As far as formal education, process system repair (trouble shooting) skills are difficult to teach. These skills, unfortunately, are best learned through thinking things through and sometimes trial and error. Adding more formal education is never a bad thing. Yes, there are many two year programs for instrument tech/ industrial controls that can be helpful. A course of study, that can have the most positive impression on your career, is to take some advanced English courses. This can greatly improve your written and verbal communication skills. This can be very important when dealing with higher level management folks.

Good luck to you sir on the new job.


----------



## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

I was NOT criticizing your writing skills. I was only making a general statement. Your writing skill is way better than you often see.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

varmit said:


> I was NOT criticizing your writing skills. I was only making a general statement. Your writing skill is way better than you often see.





varmit said:


> I was NOT criticizing your writing skills. I was only making a general statement. Your writing skill is way better than you often see.


I appreciate the advice!!! 


varmit said:


> It sounds like you have excellent previous experience for this job. The VFD skills come quickly if they are used regularly. The system problem (trouble shooting) skills are the thing that either makes or breaks you in this type job, If you already understand the system workings, you are way ahead on this part. The most necessary skill, for repairing systems, is to be a good detective. Also, never assume that the apparent or indicated problem is the root cause. Often the solution will require an educated guess that is different from what is seemingly indicated.
> 
> As far as formal education, process system repair (trouble shooting) skills are difficult to teach. These skills, unfortunately, are best learned through thinking things through and sometimes trial and error. Adding more formal education is never a bad thing. Yes, there are many two year programs for instrument tech/ industrial controls that can be helpful. A course of study, that can have the most positive impression on your career, is to take some advanced English courses. This can greatly improve your written and verbal communication skills. This can be very important when dealing with higher level management folks.
> 
> Good luck to you sir on the new job.


That's great advice 👍 Thank you!!!


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

WattsUp32482 said:


> Hello All!!!
> 
> I've been in the electrical field for 18 years now and will be starting new job at the beginning of the year! Last company we did mostly wastewater facilities/lift stations! We would do new and upgraded projects but very familiar with how facilities operate! My new job is working with engineering firm that provides pumps and controls that I previously installed for but I would be the guy doing startups! New job is considered a field service technician, installing and maintaining systems in wastewater and municipal water facilities! Company will be sending me to Danfoss to get VFD certified.
> 
> ...


As noted above, formal education doesn't mean much when you're faced with an actual problem out in the field. Your best friends will be experience and basic common sense.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

micromind said:


> As noted above, formal education doesn't mean much when you're faced with an actual problem out in the field. Your best friends will be experience and basic common sense.


I would have to agree completely, I feel pretty confident in my capabilities of working with the equipment! There isn't a course that will teach you common sense.

What do you consider a field service engineer, the same as a technician??? I feel some further education would help as I'm now working with electrical and mechanical engineers! All I have is a master electricians license....


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

WattsUp32482 said:


> I would have to agree completely, I feel pretty confident in my capabilities of working with the equipment! There isn't a course that will teach you common sense.
> 
> What do you consider a field service engineer, the same as a technician??? I feel some further education would help as I'm now working with electrical and mechanical engineers! All I have is a master electricians license....


I guess I'm going by my own personal experience here more than anything else. 

I don't have any formal electrical education, I've never been an apprentice and don't have any sort of certification or license (License not required in Nevada). Yet I'm the guy they send out to troubleshoot anything technical. 

I learned my skills on the job but I'll also read just about any electrical technical thing I can get my hands on. I learned how to program VFDs mostly by reading manuals from different manufacturers and actually pushing buttons. Some sort of a VFD class likely would have helped here though. 

I'm not saying that everyone should go this route but I've seen plenty of people who have all sorts of fancy papers stating their formal education who don't know which end of a screwdriver goes in the slot. 

So yes, I guess I am sort of biased against formal education.......lol.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

micromind said:


> I guess I'm going by my own personal experience here more than anything else.
> 
> I don't have any formal electrical education, I've never been an apprentice and don't have any sort of certification or license (License not required in Nevada). Yet I'm the guy they send out to troubleshoot anything technical.
> 
> ...


You make some very interesting points 🤔


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

My last 2 years of high school I went to the local community college instead.

In the electrical field, I started non-Union, then went Union, then went back to non-union and have stayed that way.

My experience is that education is awesome when the pupil wants and desires to learn, and they are coupled with a person that feels that equally on the teaching end.

Everything else is a crapshoot. Seen too many Union guys that are absolutely freaking stupid, and guys like @micromind that know more in their pinky than I could ever retain.

So I gotta agree with him, maybe?

Education is good when “You” are willing to learn. Now how best do you learn? Is it reading? Is it classes? Is it video?

Figure that out and you’ll be happy in what you do, regardless of how others perceive you.

Just my 2 Cents... I know it ain’t 99 cents, but it’s still something.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

The only trouble with VFD training is they are like taking “computer classes”. They tell you about the menus in the drive you are learning and what buttons do what but they are very weak on theory...WHY are you doing things, how does a motor work, how does a drive work. Good for maybe following a procedure to get the thing running but useless when things go sideways and you have to figure out what is going on. You are often dealing with closed loop systems so troubleshooting is much more difficult.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

paulengr said:


> The only trouble with VFD training is they are like taking “computer classes”. They tell you about the menus in the drive you are learning and what buttons do what but they are very weak on theory...WHY are you doing things, how does a motor work, how does a drive work. Good for maybe following a procedure to get the thing running but useless when things go sideways and you have to figure out what is going on. You are often dealing with closed loop systems so troubleshooting is much more difficult.


Completely agree 👍, in my situation its to get the certification needed for startup!


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

Switched said:


> My last 2 years of high school I went to the local community college instead.
> 
> In the electrical field, I started non-Union, then went Union, then went back to non-union and have stayed that way.
> 
> ...


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think your experience and your ability ought to carry you on this job, that's what your new employer is counting on - that's why they hired you, and they ought to know. 

I am SURE you'll find lots of community college programs and trade schools that will try to sell you a degree that they say essential for your career with a "field service engineer" job title, but in reality, it's not, they're just selling you. 

If your employer wanted someone with an associate's degree, believe me they could have had them, probably a lot cheaper than they got you. They know very well the value of two years of college versus 18 years of experience in the same types of facilities that they serve. 

If your employer (or at some point in the future, another prospective employer) says a degree will open up new opportunities, consider the cost and the benefits. Without that, I wouldn't invest the time money and effort. 

If you find you're a little weak in some area, and there's a class that will help, that can be time money and effort very well spent. For example, there's a course on reading prints at the local community college that some of my customers send people to, it's way less drama to learn to read prints in a classroom than one mistake at a time in the field. I have no idea how tech savvy you are, even a very basic course in computer literacy or etc. could be pure gold if that's something you're weak on. 

I'd even go so far as to say if you identify these weak areas on the job, tell your employer you're a little (just a little) behind on these things and you're going to look into some training or classes to bring yourself up to speed. Any half decent employer will recognize that as a good trait in an employee and may offer some guidance as to what course you ought to take and may very well help with the time and money investment if you're willing to supply the effort.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

splatz said:


> I think your experience and your ability ought to carry you on this job, that's what your new employer is counting on - that's why they hired you, and they ought to know.
> 
> I am SURE you'll find lots of community college programs and trade schools that will try to sell you a degree that they say essential for your career with a "field service engineer" job title, but in reality, it's not, they're just selling you.
> 
> ...


Well said!!! It's amazing how talking to strangers in a related work field can bring you back to reality and boost your confidence back up!!


----------



## mayanees (Jan 12, 2009)

WattsUp32482 said:


> Hello All!!!
> 
> I've been in the electrical field for 18 years now and will be starting new job at the beginning of the year! Last company we did mostly wastewater facilities/lift stations! We would do new and upgraded projects but very familiar with how facilities operate! My new job is working with engineering firm that provides pumps and controls that I previously installed for but I would be the guy doing startups! New job is considered a field service technician, installing and maintaining systems in wastewater and municipal water facilities! Company will be sending me to Danfoss to get VFD certified.
> 
> ...


I recommend getting certified as an NFPA CESCP, Certified Electrical Safety Compliance Professional. You'll be dealing with energized systems so you need to assess the risks and wear PPE accordingly. I think having your masters license gets you through the worst of the qualification requirements, then there's a test on 70E, and continuing education. It benefits you and also shows well for your employer. 
I work for an engineering firm and they support my certification as a CESCP, and it allows me to get some pretty good training. 
Good luck.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

micromind said:


> I don't have any formal electrical education, I've never been an apprentice and don't have any sort of certification or license (License not required in Nevada). Yet I'm the guy they send out to troubleshoot anything technical.


And the reason I have always thought, for such a very smart guy, why not?
I don't think a license is needed for most any electrical work. But at least for me, it was a pride thing and a resume enhancer. My whole life I have been an electrician. Many of those years were without a license.
Some years ago I ran into an apprentice that I had under me and he had his license. I thought why not me? I had been asked many times if I was licensed and always had to say no. I did not like saying no to what I see as something we all aspire too. I know I told this little story more than once around here.
Rob we are similar in age, so with me it would be very late to start working towards a license. In fact I bet I could not pass today. 
I just always wondered why you did not get yours. Unlike me, it would have been a piece of cake for you.



WattsUp32482 said:


> Completely agree 👍, in my situation its to get the certification needed for startup!


This new job will open doors as far as training. This is how I moved into the office. First I was doing start ups, troubleshooting, warranty repairs and support for motors, drives and gearing. The company was a vendor I used for several years. I moved into outside sales a few short years later.
So when you start, get up to speed on the products you guys use and get up to speed on the folks that supply these products. This is where you make the contacts that will help you from here on out.
Every supplier/vendor/manufacturer wants a relationship with you. They will be a big help and I would bet there is lots of free training for someone in your new position. 
You will/might/should have access to some decision making as far as products. The vendors know this and they want to be your go to guy. You will see.
You will learn a whole new way to work. You will have the ability to do things you may have never done.
Take advantage of the perks in this new job. They can be a lot of fun and frankly they are your ticket to other great jobs in your future. 
Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

mayanees said:


> I recommend getting certified as an NFPA CESCP, Certified Electrical Safety Compliance Professional. You'll be dealing with energized systems so you need to assess the risks and wear PPE accordingly. I think having your masters license gets you through the worst of the qualification requirements, then there's a test on 70E, and continuing education. It benefits you and also shows well for your employer.
> I work for an engineering firm and they support my certification as a CESCP, and it allows me to get some pretty good training.
> Good luck.


Great advice!!! I'll definitely be looking into that. 
What's the best way to start accumulating the 40 hours needed to even apply!?! My electrical continuing education count for 5 hours, NFPA 70e counts as 8 hours. I was going to get my OSHA 10......


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

John Valdes said:


> And the reason I have always thought, for such a very smart guy, why not?
> I don't think a license is needed for most any electrical work. But at least for me, it was a pride thing and a resume enhancer. My whole life I have been an electrician. Many of those years were without a license.
> Some years ago I ran into an apprentice that I had under me and he had his license. I thought why not me? I had been asked many times if I was licensed and always had to say no. I did not like saying no to what I see as something we all aspire too. I know I told this little story more than once around here.
> Rob we are similar in age, so with me it would be very late to start working towards a license. In fact I bet I could not pass today.
> ...


Glad to hear your success!!!
I am definitely entering this new position with an open mind and hoping to learn some new ideas and troubleshooting skills!! 
I was getting stuck on job titles! 
I'm hired to work on wastewater pumps/ systems and labeled "ELECTRICIAN" and this other person w/ 2 year associate degree electrical technology labeled as "SERVICE ENGINEER " 
Regardless I will keep in touch, thanks again for the advice


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

WattsUp32482 said:


> Glad to hear your success!!!
> I am definitely entering this new position with an open mind and hoping to learn some new ideas and troubleshooting skills!!
> I was getting stuck on job titles!
> I'm hired to work on wastewater pumps/ systems and labeled "ELECTRICIAN" and this other person w/ 2 year associate degree electrical technology labeled as "SERVICE ENGINEER "
> Regardless I will keep in touch, thanks again for the advice


 My point is you may not be an electrician for long. Unless you want to stay an electrician.


----------



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

WattsUp32482 said:


> What do you consider a field service engineer, the same as a technician??? I feel some further education would help as I'm now working with electrical and mechanical engineers! All I have is a master electricians license....


As said it is the skills you have that they want. That term "Field Service Engineer" is give to many, but they are not they are technicians. I'm from the no major paperwork crowd, I do have a journeyman paper somewhere.
I would not spend the money on school, if I wanted to really learn I would use the money to buy a drive, pump, PLC and build a mockup. Break it, fix it, repeat. You can find many ways to screw with a loop that have REAL WORLD results.

Good luck
Cowboy


----------



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

@John Valdes, I can’t speak for @micromind, and barely myself, but if your state has no licensure, you will have a time getting a license. I myself crossed over into Wild West Virginia and got myself licensed there, I never knew that they accepted out-of-state applicants. I’ll admit it was a bit of pride to get a passing grade on what I considered a tough test. If Rob has no adjacent states willing to accept his lifetime of experience at face value, well he is one of the many highly qualified but undocumented electricians our system of statehood has.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

just the cowboy said:


> As said it is the skills you have that they want. That term "Field Service Engineer" is give to many, but they are not they are technicians. I'm from the no major paperwork crowd, I do have a journeyman paper somewhere.
> I would not spend the money on school, if I wanted to really learn I would use the money to buy a drive, pump, PLC and build a mockup. Break it, fix it, repeat. You can find many ways to screw with a loop that have REAL WORLD results.
> 
> Good luck
> Cowboy


Real life experience!!! Awesome words of encouragement, thank you


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

90% of motor problems are from issues with the BMS. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

just the cowboy said:


> As said it is the skills you have that they want. That term "Field Service Engineer" is give to many, but they are not they are technicians. I'm from the no major paperwork crowd, I do have a journeyman paper somewhere.
> I would not spend the money on school, if I wanted to really learn I would use the money to buy a drive, pump, PLC and build a mockup. Break it, fix it, repeat. You can find many ways to screw with a loop that have REAL WORLD results.
> 
> Good luck
> Cowboy


Maybe for some.

What is an “engineer”? Generally the term means someone that uses math and science in an applied way to design and build something. The challenge though is how to distinguish a “technician” from an “engineer”. We could say it’s someone with 4+ years from an ABET accredited program or maybe someone with a PE license. But then what of say Tesla who is quite obviously an engineer but doesn’t meet those criteria?

We can’t pick say someone who isn’t directly involved in building either. For instance chemical engineers rarely get involved in design and construction, and it’s usually a disaster when they do. They are involved in process troubleshooting, optimization, quality control, and process design. But what a chemical engineer does is very, very close to what a field service engineer does. It’s just that field service engineers generally are more equipment focused, not process. And as opposed to say design and construction engineers that are usually project focused.

The big difference between technicians and engineers is in the methodology. If you observe field engineers and technicians often it is often really hard to tell the difference based on what they are doing. They work together very closely and they often have a lot of discussions customers never see. This is because like doctors, you are paying for their expertise and they want to maintain that appearance. Showing ignorance in public is a credibility issue.

On most field crews everybody shares in doing the grunt labor. As an engineer if you think that turning wrenches is beneath you the crew loses all respect for you (lazy, doesn’t respect their crew mates). So whether you like it or not, you will jump in and do the hard work too or you will be run off. So the field engineers are just as dirty and rough as the technicians and helpers. Based on appearance alone you’d be wrong about which ones are techs and which are not.

Plus companies like to label all of them as field service engineers. The PE license doesn’t apply very well here, and they do similar things so the lines get very blurry. So it sounds better.

A technician looks at the prints and does some tests they have been trained to do and follows specifications. Almost everything they do is based on training and/or instructions. They make judgement calls within their area of knowledge. As soon as things get to a point where they are working outside the box, technicians stop and look for support.

Engineers on the other hand are trained in basic scientific principles. There are standards, design information, Codes, regulations, and calculations to be sure. But at the end of the day there is no “box” for them. They are trained to make judgements in all circumstances. They may make a judgement call which is that it is beyond their knowledge or beyond what the company they work for allows which follows the PE ethical Code and/or liability concerns but they are in no way bound by their training. At least fundamentally if the problem can be solved, given enough resources they should be able to solve it.

Quite often behind the scenes the engineer is also the coach and responsible for maintaining and improving the technical skill of the group they are in. Or they do product development and come out of the office only on rare tricky customer issues. So again the techs might act like engineers at some level.

For me personally I have both a BSEE and an MS in process engineering. But one thing about engineering is like lawyers and doctors it comes with clout. Most people are afraid of lawyers, doctors, and engineers. And as a field service engineer I don’t have time to build up a relationship as a confidant, If you come off as one of the guys, people open up and tell you things that they would never say to someone they perceive as having a position of authority. That helps me get to the bottom of things. If I whip out the business card and rub my title in their faces, they won’t tell me anything. I use the business cards in the office where the clout helps bolster my opinion.

So coming full circle I would agree that many field service engineers are not engineers. And they may even ACT like technicians because they are limited in what they can say and do. And they are usually dressed and appear like the technicians. But if you get deeply into a conversation with one you can pretty easily tell the difference based on how they present themselves and their answers.

Field engineers are also rare. Big names like ABB hire them at below market pay and there is high turnover and treat them as techs hoping they stay and move into manufacturing and design. They are usually fresh out of college and basically just techs. Few stay with it and reach high experience and pay levels. Smaller companies have maybe one or two for between 5 and 50 technicians. There are only a few of them per state across all industries.

So yeah I hear you but we exist. We just might not be obvious or come across as what you expect.


----------



## WattsUp32482 (Sep 6, 2017)

paulengr said:


> Maybe for some.
> 
> What is an “engineer”? Generally the term means someone that uses math and science in an applied way to design and build something. The challenge though is how to distinguish a “technician” from an “engineer”. We could say it’s someone with 4+ years from an ABET accredited program or maybe someone with a PE license. But then what of say Tesla who is quite obviously an engineer but doesn’t meet those criteria?
> 
> ...


I know a guy who has an associate's degree in electrical technology and is labeled "field service engineer". Same responsibilities as me, the the master electrician labeled "field service technician" for my new job!

Sometimes I feel people want to be recognized more for their titles rather than there work!


----------

