# 2018 code for GFI and AFCI



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Washer has to be AF and GF. 240 and 3 phase not required. Refrigerator and DW also require AF and GF protection which can be accomplished with a dual function breaker.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

We have the option to not AFCI protect the laundry here. Bathrooms and garages don't require it, and unfinished basements.


BTW, unless your state has it's own code, it's the 2017 code not 2018.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

A Little Short said:


> We have the option to not AFCI protect the laundry here. Bathrooms and garages don't require it, and unfinished basements.
> 
> 
> BTW, unless your state has it's own code, it's the 2017 code not 2018.


It's probably the 2018 building code he is referring to. That's the way it works. The 2018 building code uses the 2017 NEC.

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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> It's probably the 2018 building code he is referring to. That's the way it works. The 2018 building code uses the 2017 NEC.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


That's exactly it....it's a 'package deal.......


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

micromind said:


> That's exactly it....it's a 'package deal.......


And what a deal it is! We just went from the 2009 to the 2015. 

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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Forge Boyz said:


> And what a deal it is! We just went from the 2009 to the 2015.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk



Not sure what building code we went from and went to, but we went from the 2008 NEC to the 2017!!! Talk about a learning curve!:vs_mad:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

MTW said:


> Washer has to be AF and GF. 240 and 3 phase not required. Refrigerator and DW also require AF and GF protection which can be accomplished with a dual function breaker.


Refrigerator would only require GFCI protection if the receptacle is within 6' of a sink or the receptacle was serving the counter top


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

manchestersparky said:


> Refrigerator would only require GFCI protection if the receptacle is within 6' of a sink or the receptacle was serving the counter top


True.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

micromind said:


> I imagine the 2018 code requires just about everything except kitchens, laundry and garages to be AFCI but what about GFI?
> 
> Does the washer and dryer need to be GFI now? How about 240 volt recepts in a garage? 3Ø recepts in the garage? How about a dedicated refrigerator recept in the kitchen? D/W?
> 
> I was recently informed by our wonderful building dept. that the in-laws quarters out behind my house that I'm in the process of getting a permit for is now under the 2018 code........I'm sooo thankful that our government officials are constantly looking out for my safety by ramming the latest, greatest, most expensive and idiotic codes on me......


Kitchens and laundry areas have to be AFCI. See:

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Arc-fault
circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in
210.12(A), (B), and (C). The arc-fault circuit interrupter shall
be installed in a readily accessible location.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-
ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in
dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living
rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or
areas shall be protected by any of the means described in
210.12(A)(1) through (6):


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> Not sure what building code we went from and went to, but we went from the 2008 NEC to the 2017!!! Talk about a learning curve!:vs_mad:


Honolulu is about to make the same giant leap. They should just keep it at 2008 for eternity. They make us sit thru the code changes class every 3 years and frankly what I have seen in code changes is the three since the year 2008 is a complete waste of code book paper. 08 was fine. The whole thing seems to be to get afci's into every circuit in a dwelling, and they got it at 17. The gfi for a dishwasher is total poop. So are all the other changes and requirements. Total poop.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Honolulu is about to make the same giant leap. They should just keep it at 2008 for eternity. They make us sit thru the code changes class every 3 years and frankly what I have seen in code changes is the three since the year 2008 is a complete waste of code book paper. 08 was fine. The whole thing seems to be to get afci's into every circuit in a dwelling, and they got it at 17. The gfi for a dishwasher is total poop. So are all the other changes and requirements. Total poop.



We have a very few amendments. One is that it is optional to AFCI the laundry. It makes my head spin to try and remember what is AFCI only, what is GFCI only, what is both.
So to slow my head spinning down, I've just been using dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers and eat the $3 or $4 dollars more per breaker that they cost over a single function.


I agree, it is POOP!


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## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

Get ready. I have a connection to Doug Hansen who is involved in writing the NEC and he just said 2020 code will include AFCI protection on EVERYTHING. Of course no 240 volt or 3 phase as previously stated.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Not sure what building code we went from and went to, but we went from the 2008 NEC to the 2017!!! Talk about a learning curve!:vs_mad:


What about all those people since 2008 that died in the places where AFCI's weren't installed? :surprise:


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## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

Could somebody refer me to an article or two about the ineffectiveness of AFCI's? I know a lot of guys on here don't like them I just don't know enough to feel strongly either way.

Thanks!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Simpson Electric said:


> Could somebody refer me to an article or two about the ineffectiveness of AFCI's? I know a lot of guys on here don't like them I just don't know enough to feel strongly either way.
> 
> Thanks!


I think the afci false tripping problems days are behind us now. At least in my experience. Whether or not they just pulled out the gfi sensors and are not much in the way of reliable - a good test would be to cut thru a live afci protected nm cable circuit with your side cutter pliers and see how fast it trips the breaker. If your side cutters have crater holes where the knife edge used to be perfect you know it's just a plain Jane old style circuit breaker with a $50 dollar (Rounded up average price) test button built onto it to fool people into thinking its safer than a plain Jane old breaker. If there is no welded burn craters, and only some discoloration on the tool, an arc fault interrupter chip is at work in there. 
You go first. Report back to me.


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## Simpson Electric (May 22, 2012)

I agree. I haven't had an AFCI trip for no reason lately. It is always a ground to neutral fault or an actual arc fault. 

I like my side cutters... maybe I let you have the honors...:biggrin:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

flyboy said:


> What about all those people since 2008 that died in the places where AFCI's weren't installed? :surprise:


:no::no:


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Still some issues of nuisance tripping, particularly with motor loads in garages etc.


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## JBrzoz00 (Nov 17, 2013)

I read about a 2020 code proposal to have clothes dryers GFI protected 🙄


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JBrzoz00 said:


> I read about a 2020 code proposal to have clothes dryers GFI protected


Why not make them TR while they're at it 

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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

JBrzoz00 said:


> I read about a 2020 code proposal to have clothes dryers GFI protected 🙄


So, we are gonna be "protecting" washing machines, dishwashers, dryers. That way the makers of same can cut more corners and sell more crap than already they do now. And we will be paying the insurance against catastrophic failure for them. Great idea. Welcome to the new world order. It only gets better and better. 



We got a Maytag washer and dryer in 1988. Still runs like champs. Nowadays the Maytags they sell might last three years if you are lucky as hell. Might.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Why not make them TR while they're at it


Not that I am actually advocating for this,but the washer outlet adjacent to the dryer outlet is required to be TR. Which outlet to you think a butter knife or a set of keys fit better into - a 5-15 or a 14-30?


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

JoeSparky said:


> Not that I am actually advocating for this,but the washer outlet adjacent to the dryer outlet is required to be TR. Which outlet to you think a butter knife or a set of keys fit better into - a 5-15 or a 14-30?


I get the reason why they're not currently TR... something should be plugged into them.

But with the day and age of EV chargers that plug in, they should be making TR versions of all 125, 250, and 125/250 volt receptacles (such as but not limited to: 6-15, 6-20, 6-30, 6-50, 14-30, 14-50 and 14-60 receptacles. These are commonly installed in homes... except may be the 14-60... only used that one twice.)

Maybe make a TR line of them and keep the non TR for places we don't need them to be TR (like commercial, industrial, etc.)

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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> We got a Maytag washer and dryer in 1988. Still runs like champs. Nowadays the Maytags they sell might last three years if you are lucky as hell. Might.


My Maytags are from 1979, raised 3 kids on them, still work just fine.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

micromind said:


> My Maytags are from 1979, raised 3 kids on them, still work just fine.


The GE washer and dryer we bought in 2010 was dead two years ago ad that is with just two people. 

My Gran's old Maytag is still going strong! Seems it has more steel in it than most new cars.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Simpson Electric said:


> Could somebody refer me to an article or two about the ineffectiveness of AFCI's? I know a lot of guys on here don't like them I just don't know enough to feel strongly either way.
> 
> Thanks!


EC&M magazine had several good articles on AFCI circuit breakers. Most problems have been worked out. Problems occur when electrical equipment, LEDs, appliances, digital power supplies,.. etc.. are not built to NEMA and FCC specifications. Also avoid multi wire circuits.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> EC&M magazine had several good articles on AFCI circuit breakers. Most problems have been worked out. Problems occur when electrical equipment, LEDs, appliances, digital power supplies,.. etc.. are not built to NEMA and FCC specifications. Also avoid multi wire circuits.


Who paid you to say that? Probably the same company that produced that article which was nothing more than paid propaganda from the manufacturers.


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## fmwowol (Aug 11, 2019)

Washer has to be AF and GF. 240 and 3 phase not required. Refrigerator and DW also require AF and GF protection which can be accomplished with a dual function breaker.


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## John R (Aug 20, 2019)

*John R retired electrician from Fed Gov*

I have been to at least 15 classes on the NEC over the years and agree, they have lost their mines. They should take advice from other that pencils pushers. I think alot of it is MONEY


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

John R said:


> I have been to at least 15 classes on the NEC over the years and agree, they have lost their mines. They should take advice from other that pencils pushers. I think alot of it is MONEY


Damn straight. Just look at how many people with a vested interest sit on the code committees.


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## Mellow (Jul 14, 2018)

MechanicalDVR said:


> The GE washer and dryer we bought in 2010 was dead two years ago ad that is with just two people.
> 
> My Gran's old Maytag is still going strong! Seems it has more steel in it than most new cars.



Speed Queen is (was) known as the new Maytag washer. There was a cult following of their last washing machine and then they replaced it with a questionable unit. Some people are really into old school agitator washing machines, you can find hundreds of full length cycle videos on YouTube (no joke).


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Fridgies and freezers on GFCI or Arc faults?

No thank you.

Too many valuable steaks and salmon fillets at risk.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Mellow said:


> Speed Queen is (was) known as the new Maytag washer. There was a cult following of their last washing machine and then they replaced it with a questionable unit. Some people are really into old school agitator washing machines, you can find hundreds of full length cycle videos on YouTube (no joke).



An old fashioned agitator machine is what I replaced the expensive dead one with.


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

Mellow said:


> Speed Queen is (was) known as the new Maytag washer. There was a cult following of their last washing machine and then they replaced it with a questionable unit. Some people are really into old school agitator washing machines, you can find hundreds of full length cycle videos on YouTube (no joke).


I am not sure of if you are insinuating that Speed Queen and Maytag are the same company, but they are not. Speed Queen manufactures it's appliances in Ripon, Wisconsin and has not ever been affiliated with Maytag. BTW, we have a Kenmore (Whirlpool/Maytag) washer and are very pleased with it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Who paid you to say that? Probably the same company that produced that article which was nothing more than paid propaganda from the manufacturers.


My experience is changed from 5 years ago , when I was quite vocal here at this forum against them for multiple reasons. I don't see false trip issues any longer. The thing still costs close to $50 dollars, which bites , but if it does actually work to mitigate arc faults from proceeding into fire I'm not mad to spend the money. If they (manufacturer's) are still lying and they don't help at all, I wanna be the first guy in the line to torch the business and the CO's house to the ground.....


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## Mellow (Jul 14, 2018)

Mulder said:


> I am not sure of if you are insinuating that Speed Queen and Maytag are the same company, but they are not. Speed Queen manufactures it's appliances in Ripon, Wisconsin and has not ever been affiliated with Maytag. BTW, we have a Kenmore (Whirlpool/Maytag) washer and are very pleased with it.



No, I meant in the vain of spiritual successor. American made, beefy motor, transmission, same dimensions, agitator, deep fill, 30 min cycle.... all things that made the old Maytags tick. Comes with a price tag, though. I think they start at like $1000. 


 https://speedqueen.com/products/home-products/top-load-washers/tc5/


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> My experience is changed from 5 years ago , when I was quite vocal here at this forum against them for multiple reasons. I don't see false trip issues any longer. The thing still costs close to $50 dollars, which bites , but if it does actually work to mitigate arc faults from proceeding into fire I'm not mad to spend the money. If they (manufacturer's) are still lying and they don't help at all, I wanna be the first guy in the line to torch the business and the CO's house to the ground.....



I've lost all respect for you Mikey.

And welcome to the new world order, it just keeps getting better and better.


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## jeffelectric92 (May 12, 2019)

I am in Chicago where the inspectors snear at us if we mention AFCI's, when I work five miles away in Northridge I have to install a two pole 15 AFCI when I extend a multi wire branch circuit to add an outlet in a townhouse master bedroom. Go figure. Chicago has always held itself to a higher standard of electrical safety, a legacy of the great fire and the Catholic school fire in the 60's. I am surprised that they are not all over AFCI's. Might they know something we mear electricians are not privy to?

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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

jeffelectric92 said:


> Go figure. Chicago has always held itself to a higher standard of electrical safety, a legacy of the great fire and the Catholic school fire in the 60's. I am surprised that they are not all over AFCI's. Might they know something we mear electricians are not privy to?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk



They might know the AFCI manufacturers haven't greased their palms sufficiently.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> I've lost all respect for you Mikey.
> 
> And welcome to the new world order, it just keeps getting better and better.


Why? Because I don't have false trip issues any longer? Or because I'm willing to lay out $46 bucks for a perfected dependable device that will limit electrical fires. I am willing if they are no longer lying to us. I stated that. If they are lying still to us and the device is doing zero to enhance safety from the old $5.25 style of breaker, I will be happy to daily rant and rave about it. 
The past is the past, and unlike you, I know how to forgive and forget. Especially forget. I forget what Coolwill used to call himself before, that is how easy it is for me to forget stuff.


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## John R (Aug 20, 2019)

*John R retired electrician from Fed Gov*



manchestersparky said:


> Refrigerator would only require GFCI protection if the receptacle is within 6' of a sink or the receptacle was serving the counter top


 I like pictures, 2018 code book that I have shows a refrigerator within 6 foot of a sink with a part of a cabinet between with no GFCI


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CEC says if the fridge plug is located behind the fridge, no GFCI required.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

JoeSparky said:


> Not that I am actually advocating for this,but the washer outlet adjacent to the dryer outlet is required to be TR. Which outlet to you think a butter knife or a set of keys fit better into - a 5-15 or a 14-30?


I think children would find an outlet with easier access to play with.


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