# Splain this one to me Lucy



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Was the old dryer doing the same thing? I was wondering why it got changed in the first place.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The neutral was switched with one of the hots on the receptacle?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Bad breaker?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Lay in terminal tightened down on the insulation and not the copper?


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Lay in terminal tightened down on the insulation and not the copper?


then how would he get 240v?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

kawimudslinger said:


> then how would he get 240v?


Bad termination on the dryer end could cause that.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Bad termination on the dryer end could cause that.


OP said the problem was not the dryer. Otherwise I would have guessed the setting was air only.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

dryer appliance cord was wired wrong (what ^he said)


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## halfamp (Jul 16, 2012)

Was the problem electrical in nature? 

If not, I'd say the venting was clogged


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

the dryer appliance cord should be factory installed so i consider that part of the dryer. If the op is talking about the receptacle back to the panel...then i cant think of anything


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kawimudslinger said:


> the dryer appliance cord should be factory installed so i consider that part of the dryer. If the op is talking about the receptacle back to the panel...then i cant think of anything


The cord isn't factory installed, it's installed by the delivery guy :laughing:


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

*This is what the problem was....*

The customer has 1/2' EMT running about 50' across his roof with 3 #10 stranded THHN.
I pulled the wire out and replaced the 1/2" EMT with 3/4" EMT and re-pulled the wire.

That's it. Now I'm getting a 24 amp reading with the dryer running.

So, wtf? how does the size of the conduit restrict the wires ability to deliver watts?

Like a water hose I guess .:blink:


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

damn. I wonder if there was a slight break somewhere in the conductor where it was partially conducting and you reworked it together more?

What made you decide to upsize the emt?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> The customer has 1/2' EMT running about 50' across his roof with 3 #10 stranded THHN.
> I pulled the wire out and replaced the 1/2" EMT with 3/4" EMT and re-pulled the wire.
> 
> That's it. Now I'm getting a 24 amp reading with the dryer running.
> ...


The size of the pipe doesn't "restrict the wires ability to deliver watts".

Why would you replace the pipe?? That sounds like you were just trying to run up the bill.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

kawimudslinger said:


> damn. I wonder if there was a slight break somewhere in the conductor where it was partially conducting and you reworked it together more?


No, the conduit was too small. Weird huh?


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

if a conduit is too small theres not enough room for heat dissipation the wires heat up and it causes higher resistance thus voltage drop. BUT, im sure 1/2" emt can handle three #10's?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

3 #10's in a 1/2"....isn't that okay?

What about going over the roof, did you account for the temperature?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, the conduit was too small. Weird huh?


I think that in the process, you remade a bad termination or splice.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The size of the pipe doesn't "restrict the wires ability to deliver watts".
> 
> Why would you replace the pipe?? That sounds like you were just trying to run up the bill.


Wrong"O", Good customer, long time customer. Happy Customer with a happier wife.
The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.

I just want to know why?

I have been an electrical contractor for 31 years and an electrician for 36 years, what were you doing 36 years ago?

I am willing to wager $1,000 to anyone who wants me to prove this. I just won't be able to tell you why.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I wonder if there was a loose splice somewhere or perhaps a poor connection at the breaker and/or receptacle. When you replaced the wiring you made a good connection?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> Wrong"O", Good customer, long time customer. Happy Customer with a happier wife.
> The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.
> 
> I just want to know why?
> ...


You're FOS.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> I wonder if there was a loose splice somewhere or perhaps a poor connection at the breaker and/or receptacle. When you replaced the wiring you made a good connection?


No no no, it's definitely the pipe size, he says so. Apparently the NEC is wrong when it says 3 #10's can be run in 1/2" pipe safely.

The best part of this thread is that we all learned that when there is an electrical problem we should pull out all the conduit and install larger pipe, and then pull the same wire back in :thumbup::laughing:


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

BUT... he did say it was across the roof, so maybe the sun was heating it up excessively causing the drop. Maybe the dryer would have worked fine at night time lol


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This thread reminds me of the people who hit the side of their computer monitor when the computer freezes. When you tell them that hitting the monitor won't help, they will always argue about how it fixed it the last time.


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## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

hitting used to work for the original NES


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I am going with connections were corrected at both ends of the run when the run was replaced.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99Kilowatt said:


> .....I am willing to wager $1,000 to anyone who wants me to prove this. I just won't be able to tell you why.


I'll take you up on that.

Prove it, then pay me $1,000 when you do. :whistling2:


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

kawimudslinger said:


> BUT... he did say it was across the roof, so maybe the sun was heating it up excessively causing the drop. Maybe the dryer would have worked fine at night time lol


Too much to type, but 1/2 way down the page is a calculation for temperature increase. From what i read, the voltage drop and resistance change would not create the problem here.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

kawimudslinger said:


> if a conduit is too small theres not enough room for heat dissipation the wires heat up and it causes higher resistance thus voltage drop. BUT, im sure 1/2" emt can handle three #10's?


Not a voltage drop, fewer watts available at the dryer. As we know volts are how big the hose is and watts are how fast the water is traveling through the hose. Bigger hose with the same water pressure fills your bucket with water faster.

That must be it, heat dissipation. Some years ago an inspector in San Francisco required that I up size a conduit. The code book allowed me to run the number of conductors that I installed.

The inspector said that there were to many circuits requiring to many neutrals on a three phase system for that size conduit. He showed me the formula and said that the neutrals could overheat.

What I don't know is, would that cause a drop in watts (not volts) at the devices?


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> Not a voltage drop, fewer watts available at the dryer. As we know volts are how big the hose is and watts are how fast the water is traveling through the hose. Bigger hose with the same water pressure fills your bucket with water faster.
> 
> That must be it, heat dissipation. Some years ago an inspector in San Francisco required that I up size a conduit. The code book allowed me to run the number of conductors that I installed.
> 
> ...


The "Only" thing that I changed was the size of the conduit. Same conductors and no splicing.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Maybe if you go to 1" you will get 30 to 40 amps?

This makes zero sense to me.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks for the link,

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html

I should have told the customer to tell his wife to do the laundry at night.

Come to think of it, I move slower when it's hot outside.


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## nof123 (May 14, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.


well crap is that just metal or pvc too?!? this lady might be in trouble!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I once had a service call where the receptacles were not working. I was getting a 120/v reading at the receptacles but when you plugged something in, it would not work. My first stop was to check the fuse box. I isolated the circuit, removed it from the terminal, re stripped, landed, and it fixed the issue. I still scratch my head today as to why this fixed it, but it did.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

Switched said:


> Maybe if you go to 1" you will get 30 to 40 amps?
> 
> This makes zero sense to me.


You can't get "more" that the actual demand.

Maybe if I hooked up a 50 amp cooktop I could get more than 16 amps at the cooktop.

It made no sense to me either. I think I am getting a handle on it now. :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> I once had a service call where the receptacles were not working. I was getting a 120/v reading at the receptacles but when you plugged something in, it would not work. My first stop was to check the fuse box. I isolated the circuit, removed it from the terminal, re stripped, landed, and it fixed the issue. I still scratch my head today as to why this fixed it, but it did.


This is common. You had a very loose connection. Just enough for the meter to read voltage.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> I think I am getting a handle on it now. :thumbup:


No, you still have no idea what you're talking about. You also robbed your customer if you made them pay for a new conduit run.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Today's lesson in the physics of electricity is Wattage Drop, or WD

the WD of 3#10's in 1/2" conduit is 3840 

the same conductors in 3/4" conduit will be 5760W 

A factor of *1.5* 

Ergo, a 1" pipe will assume 8640W, which will dry clothes faster...:laughing:

~CS~


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> I once had a service call where the receptacles were not working. I was getting a 120/v reading at the receptacles but when you plugged something in, it would not work. My first stop was to check the fuse box. I isolated the circuit, removed it from the terminal, re stripped, landed, and it fixed the issue. I still scratch my head today as to why this fixed it, but it did.


I have had the same thing more than once. Now that I know, it makes it easier to trouble-shoot these issues.

Maybe the wire that you stripped was corroded. In my case the termination was not tight enough (loose). 120 at the receptacle but no wattage. If your neutral is loose it can heat up.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This is common. You had a very loose connection. Just enough for the meter to read voltage.


That's kinda what I figured. I have ran across loose connections before, but could tell because, well, it was loose. This was the first and only time I came across it in this manner.

I did have a service call over the winter. Electric heat would trip the breaker on occasion. Nothing changed when it was installed a few years back. I noticed one of the conductors was a little loose under the breaker screw. Tightened it down and customer has not called back.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Did you happen to Meg the wiring before you repiped the circuit to see if there was perhaps a bur in the conduit that caused a break in the wire? Examine it after you removed it for any such damage? 
I cannot see how an increase in conduit size will allow more current to flow through the same sized conductors, especially when the conduit fill is met... I can buy a bad wire, a bad breaker or a loose/bad termination..

What if the conduit run was above a finished ceiling? Would you have ripped open some drywall to repipe or ran it on the surface?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> That's kinda what I figured. I have ran across loose connections before, but could tell because, well, it was loose. This was the first and only time I came across it in this manner.
> 
> I did have a service call over the winter. Electric heat would trip the breaker on occasion. Nothing changed when it was installed a few years back. I noticed one of the conductors was a little loose under the breaker screw. Tightened it down and customer has not called back.


That's exactly why it's good to have a heat gun on the truck to use as a load when troubleshooting.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Tomorrows lesson will be checking the buss behind , and seat of old OCDP's when WD occurs......:whistling2:~CS~


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Today's lesson in the physics of electricity is Wattage Drop, or WD
> 
> the WD of 3#10's in 1/2" conduit is 3840
> 
> ...



And a 2" should have your clothes dried in about 2 minutes, if it doesn't set them on fire first...:no:
Wouldn't we be getting into "super conductors" if we are calculating heat disipation with conductor and conduit sizing?


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

HackWork said:


> No, you still have no idea what you're talking about. You also robbed your customer if you made them pay for a new conduit run.



No, I'm just an idiot with a very successful electrical contracting business for the past 31 years.

_*:laughing:*_


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> That's exactly why it's good to have a heat gun on the truck to use as a load when troubleshooting.


Got one. :thumbup: I used to use the hole hawg.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, I'm just an idiot with a very successful electrical contracting business for the past 31 years.
> 
> _*:laughing:*_


You keep saying how successful you are and how many years of experience you have. Yet everything you post shows that you don't even know basic electrical theory and you do unnecessary work on your customers houses in order to run up the bill.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Looks like the chicken beat me to it:



Let’s throw some Ohms law at this
Initially you have R1 for the wire resistance and Rd1 for the dryer resistance.
With 240 V at the breaker you get R1+Rd1 =240/16 = 15 Ohms
After the rewire you have wire resistances R2 and Rd2
With 240 at the breaker you get R2 +Rd2 =240/24 =10 Ohms

The tricky part is the Nichrome wire in the dryer has about a 0.7%/C temperature rise and the copper wire will have about 0.4%/C rise. So it is really hard to solve for all of the resistors without knowing the wire length and temperature rise.

Before you rewired you had 15 *16^2 = 3.84 kW, and after you have 10 *24^2 = 5.76 kW
Did you measure the voltage at the dryer plug with no load? Otherwise with the circuit details you provided, the voltage at the plug cannot be the same under load. With the dryer plug voltage before and after the rewire we could calculate all the resistances,

I would bet that the wire in the conduit was very hot before you re-piped. A large difference in resistance like this would make something get hot. Did you use the same wire over again? Did you notice any burn marks?
Both hots in the same conduit right?
EJPHI


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> And a 2" should have your clothes dried in about 2 minutes, if it doesn't set them on fire first...:no:
> Wouldn't we be getting into "super conductors" if we are calculating heat disipation with conductor and conduit sizing?


Thanks!!! Please tell HackMan.

Oh, btw, you can't get more wattage through a conductor without the demand for it. Let's burn up some wire.
:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The neutral was switched with one of the hots on the receptacle?


What would happen in a case like quoted above?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, I'm just an idiot with a very successful electrical contracting business for the past 31 years.
> 
> _*:laughing:*_


No, you are not an idiot, you just took a route in the troubleshooting process that led you to do what you did the way you did it.

I have done it before in a different manner. If I would have done one in the manner that you did, I could not let myself charge the customer the full amount of running a new circuit in that manner. In your case though, I would have not done it in the manner you did in the first place.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> What would happen in a case like quoted above?


Can I answer that? I had a co worker do that once.

Oh, Oh, Pick me!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> And a 2" should have your clothes dried in about 2 minutes, if it doesn't set them on fire first...:no:
> Wouldn't we be getting into "super conductors" if we are calculating heat disipation with conductor and conduit sizing?


Dunno, but i'd wager the green machine here would sign onto it , have their _'energy nazi's'_ work up an ROI , and get us some work outta it Glen....:laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

EJPHI said:


> Looks like the chicken beat me to it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I only measured the voltage with the dryer off. I measured the amperage with the dryer on.
I knew that somebody that wasn't a "Hack" could splain this to me.
Thank You!
I used the same wire after visually inspecting it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Can I answer that? I had a co worker do that once.
> 
> Oh, Oh, Pick me!


Picked! Your answer please...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> I only measured the voltage with the dryer off. I measured the amperage with the dryer on.
> I knew that somebody that wasn't a "Hack" could splain this to me.
> Thank You!
> I used the same wire after visually inspecting it.


Apparently you didn't understand what he said. He didn't explain what you think happened, he actually proved that what you think happened couldn't possibly happen. :laughing:


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> Thanks!!! Please tell HackMan.
> 
> Oh, btw, you can't get more wattage through a conductor without the demand for it. Let's burn up some wire.
> :thumbsup:


I realize that demand doesn't miraculously develop..But based on what you were saying with simply oversizing a conduit and repulling in the same size conductors and somehow miraculously gaining an increased capacity of the wire, I using some sarcasm to elaborate how ludicrous it seems... Rather than to actually test the wiring, and terminations by proven troubleshooting techniques and reporting back with a viable problem, how you found it and your fix..


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Oh okay, the size of the conduit has a bearing on the watts available on a circuit? How about if it was an armoured cable? A non metallic one? This has to be a troll post.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> What would happen in a case like quoted above?


The dryer talks like this Hax>



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT8CRi9k4bo

~C:laughing:S~


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Picked! Your answer please...


2 answers
1. If the switching was done one way, you would give the motor 220/v
and fry it and the controls. And give the heating element 110/v
2. If switching done the other way, you would give motor reverse polarity and the heating element 110/v


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> No, you are not an idiot, you just took a route in the troubleshooting process that led you to do what you did the way you did it.
> 
> I have done it before in a different manner. If I would have done one in the manner that you did, I could not let myself charge the customer the full amount of running a new circuit in that manner. In your case though, I would have not done it in the manner you did in the first place.


? O.k. smarty pants, how would you have done it in the first place?:detective:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> ? O.k. smarty pants, how would you have done it in the first place?:detective:


I can't answer for him, but I can guarantee that no electrician would ever upgrade the size of the pipe to fix this issue.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> ? O.k. smarty pants, how would you have done it in the first place?:detective:


After checking voltage at receptacle, I would then go to panel. From past exp. I would remove wires from breaker, cut, re strip (put a new breaker in as a precaution). If that did not fix it, I would do the same at the receptacle. After that I would start suspecting the circuit.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> I only measured the voltage with the dryer off. I measured the amperage with the dryer on.
> I knew that somebody that wasn't a "Hack" could splain this to me.
> Thank You!
> *I used the same wire after visually inspecting it.*


So your fix to get the dryer to come up to rated capacity was to replace the conduit and not the wire?? So you told the customer that the raceway that held the wire was the problem? And that by changing from 1/2" conduit to 3/4" conduit would help, using your analogy of a water pipe capacity? 
Did he give you a deer in the headlights look of confusion? :001_huh:


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> I realize that demand doesn't miraculously develop..But based on what you were saying with simply oversizing a conduit and repulling in the same size conductors and somehow miraculously gaining an increased capacity of the wire, I using some sarcasm to elaborate how ludicrous it seems... Rather than to actually test the wiring, and terminations by proven troubleshooting techniques and reporting back with a viable problem, how you found it and your fix..


Please don't confuse what "you say" with the actual field testing and results.
Humor is in the ear of the beholder.

Should I believe "you" or my lying eyes?

The Sear's technician that I called told me the conduit was too small. What an idiot that guy is.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

:001_huh:








































Cletis?


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> Please don't confuse what "you say" with the actual field testing and results.
> Humor is in the ear of the beholder.
> 
> Should I believe "you" or my lying eyes?
> ...


I could actually care less if you believe me or not.. I may have just repulled the conductors, possibly swapped the breaker out and been done with it.. I was not in your shoes being the hands on guy making the decisions on to fix your customer's issues.. You fixed it, charged them and are moving on to the next one.. Not that I care, but did you happen to check the buss connections that your breaker was making and are they in good shape?

Maybe you and the Sear's tech came up with some new electrical theory and every other electrician is wrong.. That is always possible too...


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> Please don't confuse what "you say" with the actual field testing and results.
> Humor is in the ear of the beholder.
> 
> Should I believe "you" or my lying eyes?
> ...


Okay, let's slow down here. Very simple circuit. Three wires. A breaker in the panel, a 30 amp 250 watt dryer plug with three terminations. A new dryer with a 30 amp pigtail. Everything checks out o.k.

I guess that I am not a smart as you sir..........yuck, yuck.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dibs you'll be back 99K.....

~CS~


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

glen1971 said:


> So your fix to get the dryer to come up to rated capacity was to replace the conduit and not the wire?? So you told the customer that the raceway that held the wire was the problem? And that by changing from 1/2" conduit to 3/4" conduit would help, using your analogy of a water pipe capacity?
> Did he give you a deer in the headlights look of confusion? :001_huh:


No, actually he was as surprised as you are!


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, actually he was as surprised as you are!


I did call the Sears guy and thanked him. He said that he has seen this before.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Did you and the Sears technician talk about your watts through a water pipe theory? :laughing:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

This is a hell of a good troll thread!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> Okay, let's slow down here. Very simple circuit. Three wires. A breaker in the panel, a 30 amp 250 watt dryer plug with three terminations. A new dryer with a 30 amp pigtail. Everything checks out o.k.
> 
> I guess that I am not a smart as you sir..........yuck, yuck.


No, no, no. You don't suck, but sometimes it is best to admit that you went overkill on your issue that could have been solved with less $$ from the client.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I can't answer for him, but I can guarantee that no electrician would ever upgrade the size of the pipe to fix this issue.



O.k. What would you do? This should be good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> O.k. What would you do? This should be good.


So what you're saying is that you increase the size of the pipe because the Sears guy told you to and not because of you're 36 years of experience?


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> No, no, no. You don't suck, but sometimes it is best to admit that you went overkill on your issue that could have been solved with less $$ from the client.


And...keep going, tell me how to solve the issue for less money.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks i understand why Roebuck left now.....~CS~:laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Alright, enough fun for one night. I'm Audi.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

HackWork said:


> So what you're saying is that you increase the size of the pipe because the Sears guy told you to and not because of you're 36 years of experience?


Pretty much, Just like you master electricians keep telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

So much for theory. I am happy that I know something that you don't believe.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the size of the conduit.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

Maybe this is not the place to find the answer to my electrical question. Too many big babies that are smarter that me.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I'll be the first to admit that I am an idiot. I am a self educated, self employed, and self loathing nincompoop.....

What other nuggets of goodness do you wish to bestow upon us?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> And...keep going, tell me how to solve the issue for less money.


He already basically said he would check the wiring connections....


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

btharmy said:


> It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the size of the conduit.


Everyone keeps saying that. Oh well, maybe so. It works fine now.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

Switched said:


> He already basically said he would check the wiring connections....


No, that was not the issue. All connections were fine. O.k. Mr. Master electrician. What do you do after determining that everything, "EVERYTHING" in the wiring is o.k.?

Let's do this little walk together.


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## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

Switched said:


> I'll be the first to admit that I am an idiot. I am a self educated, self employed, and self loathing nincompoop.....
> 
> What other nuggets of goodness do you wish to bestow upon us?


I hate it when other trades people call electricians prima donna's. Maybe there is something to that.
Keep up the good work men.


----------



## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> After checking voltage at receptacle, I would then go to panel. From past exp. I would remove wires from breaker, cut, re strip (put a new breaker in as a precaution). If that did not fix it, I would do the same at the receptacle. After that I would start suspecting the circuit.


O.k. that didn't work, what do you do next? Hey, I'm not a dummy here.
Keep going....


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I once had a service call where the window unit was tripping the breaker. Window unit was installed by Sears and their techs told the lady that it was an electrical issue.
I arrived and amp clamped the conductors. When the unit cycled it hit 60 amps and would trip the breaker. This was a 220/v 20 amp circuit. I placed a new breaker in and did another run.

The black smoke that came out of that window unit was something I have never seen before.


----------



## 99Kilowatt (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm going to set up the same scenario and have some master electrician figure it out while I am sipping some iced tea with a grin on my face.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> O.k. that didn't work, what do you do next? Hey, I'm not a dummy here.
> Keep going....


I already told you what I would do next.


----------



## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> I hate it when other trades people call electricians prima donna's. Maybe there is something to that. Keep up the good work men.


It is probably an intermittent problem with the breaker. Or an issue inside the dryer that self-corrected.

There is no scientific, theoretical or practical reason for what you have said. Changing from 1/2" to 3/4" conduit is not going to double the current carrying capacity of #10 wire. You have not single handedly re-written the rules of electricity. 

Just because you don't understand why it works now, does not give you the right to be a jerk about it. It is simple electrical theory. Not magic.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

btharmy said:


> It is probably an intermittent problem with the breaker. Or an issue inside the dryer that self-corrected.
> 
> There is no scientific, theoretical or practical reason for what you have said. Changing from 1/2" to 3/4" conduit is not going to double the current carrying capacity of #10 wire. You have not single handedly re-written the rules of electricity.
> 
> Just because you don't understand why it works now, does not give you the right to be a jerk about it. It is simple electrical theory. Not magic.


The worst part about this is that he got the idea from some guy sitting in a call center in India. And the customer got robbed because of it.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The worst part about this is that he got the idea from some guy sitting in a call center in India. And the customer got robbed because of it.


........ Tried, but you just couldn't stay away.......:laughing:


----------



## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

He probably thinks if you kink an extension cord like a garden hose, the amps will stop flowing.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

btharmy said:


> It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the size of the conduit.


Yeah well, Sears sez so........come to think of it, so does my 'ol lady....

~CS~


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

btharmy said:


> He probably thinks if you kink an extension cord like a garden hose, the amps will stop flowing.


No, just the watts.:thumbsup:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Yeah well, Sears sez so........come to think of it, so does my 'ol lady....
> 
> ~CS~


It's not the size of the conduit but how it is installed.....


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> It's not the size of the conduit but how it is installed.....


You have to angle it downwards like a drain pipe so the electrons flow properly?


Edit- I should have replied to your post with "That's what she said!"


----------



## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't know if the length of the run was ever mentioned so I just took an arbitrary run of 30 feet. With a temp of 20 degrees Celsius, the resistance of the copper would be approximately 0.6 ohms. If all terminations were tight and proper and the only thing affecting the current drop was the temperature of the wire, then with the temperature coefficient of copper, the temperature would have had to risen to 1900 degrees Celsius to get the resistance needed. My vote is for a poor/dirty/corroded termination with a resistance of about 4.5 ohms.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*poultrygiest....?*

Fwiw, i've had these make/break contact , and not trip anything on _older_ 3 wire circuits....:whistling2:












~CS~


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Fwiw, i've had these make/break contact , and not trip anything on _older_ 3 wire circuits....:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You guys have weird clothes dryers in that neck of the woods!


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

This has got to be a troll thread. No electrician with 30+ _successful _years could be so obtuse and asinine as to think that he and some Sears tech have exclusive knowledge that _NO_ other electrician, or engineer , or pioneer in the field has or has ever had.

This guy is better than Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, and that _crazed_ German physicist named Georg Ohm.

Thank you good sir for enlightening all of us dumb electricians who haven't a clue about the physics behind electricity.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> This has got to be a troll thread. No electrician with 30+ _successful _years could be so obtuse and asinine as to think that he and some Sears tech have exclusive knowledge that _NO_ other electrician, or engineer , or pioneer in the field has or has ever had.
> 
> This guy is better than Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, and that _crazed_ German physicist named Georg Ohm.
> 
> Thank you good sir for enlightening all of us dumb electricians who haven't a clue about the physics behind electricity.


narf !


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Tsmil said:


> I don't know if the length of the run was ever mentioned so I just took an arbitrary run of 30 feet. With a temp of 20 degrees Celsius, the resistance of the copper would be approximately 0.6 ohms. If all terminations were tight and proper and the only thing affecting the current drop was the temperature of the wire, then with the temperature coefficient of copper, *the temperature would have had to* *risen to 1900 degrees Celsius to get the resistance needed*. My vote is for a poor/dirty/corroded termination with a resistance of about 4.5 ohms.


I'm sure that has to be what happened. We all know that 1/2" EMT holds way more heat than 3/4" EMT.


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Curious 99K, did you leave a fire extinguisher behind for all your past customers?

To test:
1. Check the device connections.
2. Check breaker (including the buss bar)
3. Insulation test the wire. Or load test the wire as mentioned before).
4. Remove existing wire.
5. Run new larger diameter pipe.
6. Post up a troll thread on electriciantalk.com and call all the members idiots for not believing that electricity works the way you THINK it does.

** For the record I haven't gotten to step 4, 5 or 6 from the above test method yet (20 years in the business).:thumbsup:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

The_Modifier said:


> Curious 99K, did you leave a fire extinguisher behind for all your past customers?
> 
> To test:
> 1. Check the device connections.
> ...


You need 36 years to get to the later steps.:thumbsup:


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

So you read 16 on delicate, and 24 on regular. What's the big deal?

Hey Hax, didn't have a heat gun on last troubleshoot and was walking around their house with their toaster.:laughing:

i told the lady of the house to not mention to anyone my super awesome toaster troubleshoot skills.


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Switched said:


> You need 36 years to get to the later steps.:thumbsup:


:laughing:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> You need 36 years to get to the later steps.:thumbsup:


And a Sears customer service rep.

Awwww man, I'm all out of Thanks because of this thread :laughing:


----------



## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

btharmy said:


> He probably thinks if you kink an extension cord like a garden hose, the amps will stop flowing.





Switched said:


> It's not the size of the conduit but how it is installed.....


That's why there is only 4 - 90's allowed in a conduit run.. It is too much of a watt restrictor...:laughing:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

glen1971 said:


> That's why there is only 4 - 90's allowed in a conduit run.. It is too much of a watt restrictor...:laughing:


We all know 3 #10's will fit in a 1/2".....But I guess when it is so big you need a 4".....You gotta do what you gotta do!


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

3xdad said:


> i told the lady of the house to not mention to anyone my super awesome toaster troubleshoot skills.


:lol:
Is that a _toaster_ in your pocket , or are you just _glad_ you read this thread Dad....?~C:jester:S~


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kawimudslinger said:


> then how would he get 240v?


High resistance connection. You'll read it with the meter, but under load, the connection will not perform


----------



## mikey383 (May 21, 2012)

Two things I've learned from this thread:

If there's a problem with a piece of equipment, upsize the conduit. 

It takes 36 years of experience to know better than a collective several hundreds of years experience. 

The guys at work tomorrow morning are going to flip their lids when a photoeye on a machine isn't working, and I tell them the conduit needs upsized because it's not carrying enough watts

I'll be hailed as a hero. :thumbup:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> The customer has 1/2' EMT running about 50' across his roof with 3 #10 stranded THHN.
> I pulled the wire out and replaced the 1/2" EMT with 3/4" EMT and re-pulled the wire.
> 
> That's it. Now I'm getting a 24 amp reading with the dryer running.
> ...


.........


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> Wrong"O", Good customer, long time customer. Happy Customer with a happier wife.
> The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.
> 
> I just want to know why?
> ...


.......


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Switched said:


> I wonder if there was a loose splice somewhere or perhaps a poor connection at the breaker and/or receptacle. When you replaced the wiring you made a good connection?


That's what happened.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> Not a voltage drop, fewer watts available at the dryer. As we know volts are how big the hose is and watts are how fast the water is traveling through the hose. Bigger hose with the same water pressure fills your bucket with water faster.
> 
> That must be it, heat dissipation. Some years ago an inspector in San Francisco required that I up size a conduit. The code book allowed me to run the number of conductors that I installed.
> 
> ...


.....


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> This is common. You had a very loose connection. Just enough for the meter to read voltage.


Yep, that was my original guess and still is.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, I'm just an idiot with a very successful electrical contracting business for the past 31 years.
> 
> _*:laughing:*_


If you charge every customer for stuff they don't need, like you did this one, you probably can make good money


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> I only measured the voltage with the dryer off. I measured the amperage with the dryer on.
> I knew that somebody that wasn't a "Hack" could splain this to me.
> Thank You!
> I used the same wire after visually inspecting it.


.......


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Awww c'mon Jerry......you can't possibly question this guys theory??? After all..........he has 36 yrs of experience and the Sears guy said he was right so.......


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I can't answer for him, but I can guarantee that no electrician would ever upgrade the size of the pipe to fix this issue.


You are right. The wire size or pipe size does not PICK the wattage to the load. The using device will attempt to develop the wattage it was designed to develop.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> I did call the Sears guy and thanked him. He said that he has seen this before.


Now you're just flat out lying.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Trust him, he's been doing this longer than you


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> No, that was not the issue. All connections were fine. O.k. Mr. Master electrician. What do you do after determining that everything, "EVERYTHING" in the wiring is o.k.?
> 
> Let's do this little walk together.


You never checked the 240 under a load. That was the problem. And when you re made your connections, you fixed it. The conduit had absolutely nothing to do with this.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I didn't look. Blocked vent :thumbsup:


Well, I looked and I'm going with:



> I think that in the process, you remade a bad termination or splice.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I didn't look. Blocked vent :thumbsup:


Go back and read. It's some good entertainment


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I _hate_ when my  vent is blocked.....~CS~


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok, I solved it now how do I get my $1000.00

While you had the dryer out and was busy replacing conduit on the roof, the husband finally gave in to the wife's nagging and cleaned the dryer vent.

Awesome troll thread, I usualy don't read 6 pages without loosing interest.


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> 2 answers
> 1. If the switching was done one way, you would give the motor 220/v
> and fry it and the controls. And give the heating element 110/v
> 2. If switching done the other way, you would give motor reverse polarity and the heating element 110/v



Hate to side track this thread ( best troll thread in a long long while) BUT
#1 is correct

but if I read your #2 answer the way think you meant then you are wrong.

Reversing polarity on a single phase motor wont damage it, but I get the impression you meant the motor will run backwards?
The only way to reverse a single phase motor is to reverse the start windings in reference to the run windings.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I can't believ you just beat me to that Steve 

I will split the $1000 with you


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So....is Sear still hiring.....? ~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

cabletie said:


> I can't believ you just beat me to that Steve
> 
> I will split the $1000 with you


Then we can go shop @ Sears! :laughing:~CS~:jester:


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No no no, it's definitely the pipe size, he says so. Apparently the NEC is wrong when it says 3 #10's can be run in 1/2" pipe safely.
> 
> *The best part of this thread is that we all learned that when there is an electrical problem we should pull out all the conduit and install larger pipe, and then pull the same wire back in :thumbup::laughing:*



That is exactly what the ac guys always tell the homeowner's whenever there is a leak in their fridgerent pipes and they want to lay blame elsewhere.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

This is probably the fastest moving thread in a while also.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

yeah, like sharks and skinnydippers.....~CS~


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

cabletie said:


> This is probably the fastest moving thread in a while also.


I agree totally. By the time I finished a page, there was another one added
This beats anything Cletis ever posted for speed :thumbup:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

wcord said:


> I agree totally. By the time I finished a page, there was another one added
> This beats anything Cletis ever posted for speed :thumbup:


You maybe were not around for the Power Saver threads.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

99Kilowatt said:


> I am willing to wager $1,000 to anyone who wants me to prove this. I just won't be able to tell you why.


I'm in. :thumbup:

You aren't accounting for everything else you did. Just turning the breaker off and back on may have contributed to the problem.

If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to make that bet.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Three #10 THHN wires only fill a 1/2 in EMT to 20% you are allowed 40%. Not checking voltage under load is a rookie mistake. But hey, I've only been doing this for 30 years. What do I know.


----------



## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not going back and quote it, but why a 3 prong and not a 4 prong?


I am now part of the party!!

Whoop whoop!


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I realized this was a Cletis thread after the second page.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> I realized this was a Cletis thread after the second page.


Yeah, but a damn good one!


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I'm in. :thumbup:
> 
> You aren't accounting for everything else you did. Just turning the breaker off and back on may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to make that bet.


Good point. I have seen two pole breakers that lost a phase and then worked after resetting them. Do you want your winnings in pennies???


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Switched said:


> Yeah, but a damn good one!


I concur. This is top shelf trolling.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99Kilowatt said:


> ? O.k. smarty pants, how would you have done it in the first place?:detective:


Hi Cletis. :detective:


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

it was a lot of fun seeing a thread run so long and fast without getting totally ugly, and there was some good points here too. lets do this again once in a while!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Oh okay, the size of the conduit has a bearing on the watts available on a circuit? How about if it was an armoured cable? A non metallic one? This has to be a troll post.


What if one installed NM cable instead? Would that provide an infinite amount of power?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What if one installed NM cable instead? Would that provide an infinite amount of power?


Better keep that one quiet. It sounds better than super conductors.


----------



## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

220/221 said:


> If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to make that bet.


You be quiet, I want a half day off.:laughing:


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What if one installed NM cable instead? Would that provide an infinite amount of power?


 No, that thermoplastic jacket must still have some watt constricting effects. The best install would be three #10s on knob and tube to the dryer recep. Free air conductors should have zero wattage drop.


----------



## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Watts have a hard time turning corners, maybe there were too many 90's. Thankfully the bigger pipe smoothed out the turn a little so the watts could flow freely. 
It's the very well known kinked pipe theory of watt constriction! 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

This has to be the most bogus ET thread ever.


----------



## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

I think we learned a valuable lesson here - one which leads to the beauty and the beast of the scientific method. Science is a great tool that we can learn from and use to discover the world, but even though the method is tried and true, the analysis is what most often fails. Science is factual, but many many people lack the discernment to properly understand their observations. The problem is not with the method, but with the human component. We are let down and fail so often because we are either trying to look for something, or we understand something to be true that just isn't actually happening!

In a similar fashion, 99killowatt is successful at driving the car, but he doesn't really understand how pressing the gas peddle makes it move. - although he has his theories.

There are many contractors out there who can follow the NEC or CEC and run a million dollar business but have no idea what makes the lights turn on...not that there is anything wrong with that.


----------



## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

99Kilowatt said:


> I am an electrical contractor. One of my clients bought a new electric dryer and installed it where the old one was. Only problem was the dryer did not get very hot and it took forever to dry clothes.
> He called me and I checked the breaker,
> 30 amp 240 volt, check
> The wire size #10, check
> ...





99Kilowatt said:


> The customer has 1/2' EMT running about 50' across his roof with 3 #10 stranded THHN.
> I pulled the wire out and replaced the 1/2" EMT with 3/4" EMT and re-pulled the wire.
> 
> That's it. Now I'm getting a 24 amp reading with the dryer running.
> ...


Ok, slow night I guess. Busy day, so just reading this thread. Yes, the entire thread! 

As I read the original posters posts, all I could think of was this:

In my younger days, everyone was an astronaut when they went out of town on business.

Theses days, with the Internet, everyone is an electrical contractor with 30+ years experience! :laughing: :laughing:

The thread was entertaining. But, obvious. 

Borgi


----------



## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

Borgi said:


> Ok, slow night I guess. Busy day, so just reading this thread. Yes, the entire thread!
> 
> As I read the original posters posts, all I could think of was this:
> 
> ...


+1 one on this, it was very entertaining

the only way a conduit could limite the amount on power available would be the inductance if it was a 400hz system of a couple kilometer long, 

there is nothing that stand in that story, it was just a bad termination and re dowing it solved the problem


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> This has to be the most bogus ET thread ever.


Putting the FUN in dysfunction is our gift to God's special 'lectrical children @ ET Meadow....:thumbsup:~CS~


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> No, you are not an idiot, you just took a route in the troubleshooting process that led you to do what you did the way you did it.
> 
> I have done it before in a different manner. If I would have done one in the manner that you did, I could not let myself charge the customer the full amount of running a new circuit in that manner. In your case though, I would have not done it in the manner you did in the first place.


That IS NOT trouble shooting that is blindly replacing components until you fix something and you assume the wrong solution in lieu of the actual cause


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

I have not read all the responses but will BUT



99Kilowatt said:


> Wrong"O", Good customer, long time customer. Happy Customer with a happier wife.
> The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.
> 
> I just want to know why?
> ...


If you CANNOT explain it then you are wrong, FLAT OUT. Sorry, you overlooked the real issue and fixed it when you made the replacement. Conduit will not restrict current in a normal installation. So instead of isolating the problem you hid it by a blind repair. So many better options for locating the issue.

I would have checked all connections, run a temporary then you have infinite conduit size and in theory infinite wattage on the dryer.

36 years ago I had 4 masters and several Journeyman licenses, which MEANS NOTHING to this discussion, I have known quite a few dolts with many years in the trade. Not saying you are a dolt just than time in trade is not always a good answer to a bad fix. Hitting 45 years in the trade July 5th.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Stop it Brian, you clearly don't know how watts work.


----------



## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Stop it Brian, you clearly don't know how watts work.


You tell him Hackwork. Doesn't Brian know this is why POCOs make us oversize conduit for feeders. Doesn't he know a four pair telephone cable will get more phone calls if you put it in a 4" conduit? Doesn't he know you get more cable channels using bigger conduit? Man some people just don't get it.


----------



## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

This thread is (IMO) a great example of why a disclaimer is posted on ET.com :thumbup:


----------



## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Just found saw this thread....wow, it got big fast. I read some of it, but don't have time to look through all of it:

So does changing from 1/2" to 3/4" really let you pull more watts? I seem to remember something about this in tradeschool.


----------



## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Yeah 36 years of experience...............

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/wire-ampacities-30241/
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfcis-neutrals-37526/


----------



## JDJ (Aug 9, 2011)

backstay said:


> Three #10 THHN wires only fill a 1/2 in EMT to 20% you are allowed 40%. Not checking voltage under load is a rookie mistake. But hey, I've only been doing this for 30 years. What do I know.



A little less then the 36 years guy? :laughing:


----------



## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> I have not read all the responses but will BUT
> 
> 
> 
> If you CANNOT explain it then you are wrong, FLAT OUT. Conduit will not restrict *current* in a normal installation.


Apparently you just don't get it......it was the _watts_ that couldn't flow through that conduit. 1/2 emt is famous for being a major watt restriction.:laughing::laughing:
Even Sears repair guys know that.


----------



## Jumpman317 (Jul 22, 2013)

*NEC table C1*

It states on NEC table C1. You can put a max. Of 5 THHN # 10 awg on a 1/2" EMT.


----------



## bei (Jan 21, 2009)

99Kilowatt said:


> The size did restrict the wires ability to deliver watts. This is not a debate over theory. This is an actual event. I could recreate the situation again.
> 
> I just want to know why?
> 
> ...


99KW,
I can tell you are sincere in your belief, and that you started this thread to try to understand something that you witnessed, but had no reasonable explanation for. I have had a few unexplainable doozies myself during my career.

I accept your offer of wagering $1000 to recreate the situation and to prove yourself right. I really admire you for being so willing to put your money up to prove yourself right. Since you are West Coast and I am East Coast, I would like to set up the wager this way:
1. We both set up test systems, nearly identical to the system you worked on. I will need to know the length of the EMT and other particulars. To save time during the actual test (where we use Skype or Webex to see each other during the actual testing) we both will set up 2 pipe runs, one 1/2" and one 3/4" in advance of the actual testing.
2. We invite witnesses, from both the electrical community and from outside the community. These people will select a non-electrican leader who will hold our money, and will make the final decision as to who wins.

Please feel free to suggest changes/additions to the rules of our wager. I look forward to hearing from you, 99KW. Let's do this soon, as I am really looking forward to learning something new.

BTW everyone, I am surprised no one questioned Watts flowing in a circuit. I thought Amps was a measurement of electron (current) flow, and Watts the measurement of Power consumed. Maybe someone here can set me straight.


----------



## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

bei said:


> 99KW,
> I can tell you are sincere in your belief, and that you started this thread to try to understand something that you witnessed, but had no reasonable explanation for. I have had a few unexplainable doozies myself during my career.
> 
> I accept your offer of wagering $1000 to recreate the situation and to prove yourself right. I really admire you for being so willing to put your money up to prove yourself right. Since you are West Coast and I am East Coast, I would like to set up the wager this way:
> ...


West coast vs. East coast battle.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I still think something was swapped at the outlet with the heat only getting 120 volts.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

99Kilowatt said:


> O.k. What would you do? This should be good.


There are several things to do. Removing and upgrading the conduit size is not one of them.
BTW, I found this thread linked here from Facebook.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

meadow said:


> I still think something was swapped at the outlet with the heat only getting 120 volts.


Hey, I said that on the first page! Now I feel smart :nerd:


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## bei (Jan 21, 2009)

NacBooster29 said:


> West coast vs. East coast battle.


All in the quest for monewledge, er money... NO, er, uh, knowledge, yes, that's it--Knowledge, NacB.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Moonshot180 said:


> This thread is (IMO) a great example of why a disclaimer is posted on ET.com :thumbup:


is an update due? :laughing:

*Thanks for posting on ElectricianTalk.com. However, working with electricity and electrical systems can be unsafe even if done by a professional licensed electrician. The moderators of this site have enough to do with keeping up appearances , and really don't need the extra baggade of pseudo electricial theory in a professional forum 

If it were permitted by law in , we'd publicly flog you and then sign up at our sister site, www.DIYChatroom.com where many of our professionals are also members and are looking forward to gleefully flogging you as well. 

Please take a moment to post your dismal level of trade expertise at www.DIYChatroom.com If you're not already a member of DIYChatroom.com you can sign up for a free account by going to http://www.DIYChatroom.com/register.php/ 

We apologize for the butthurt that this may have caused. This thread has been hosed.*

~C:jester:S~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Feedeth not the troll.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I think 99kw belongs on DIY chatroom :whistling2:


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## al_smelter (Jan 25, 2011)

Geeze, glad I only have thirty four years in the trade so I don't get lumped in with Mr. 36. I still have a couple years to figure all this technical stuff out.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Hey, I said that on the first page! Now I feel smart :nerd:


 
I am willing to be a lot of money that's what it was. I know of cases where hot and neutral/ground was miswired on a range or dryer outlet. In one case it was on an old 3 wire plug and after the range started shocking the installers took out the bonding jumper and left. After that appliance techs couldn't figure why half the elements were only getting warm.


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## Hawkrod (Mar 19, 2012)

99Kilowatt said:


> Not a voltage drop, fewer watts available at the dryer. As we know volts are how big the hose is and watts are how fast the water is traveling through the hose. Bigger hose with the same water pressure fills your bucket with water faster.
> snip


 Sorry, that is the worst analogy I have heard. Are you seriously thinking that power flows on the pipe? The hose in your analogy is the wire because that is where electricity moves, since you did not upsize the wire you did not make the "hose" bigger.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> I am willing to be a lot of money that's what it was. I know of cases where hot and neutral/ground was miswired on a range or dryer outlet. In one case it was on an old 3 wire plug and after the range started shocking the installers took out the bonding jumper and left. After that appliance techs couldn't figure why half the elements were only getting warm.


Similar circumstances depending on where the dyer heat coil breaks on a 3W , or it can even be a clogged vent/OL event _(maybe Sears referred to than as the pipe needing increased size?)_:laughing:~CS~


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## Moonshot180 (Apr 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Similar circumstances depending on where the dyer heat coil breaks on a 3W , or it can even be a clogged vent/OL event _(maybe Sears referred to than as the pipe needing increased size?)_:laughing:~CS~


 
oh i can just see that whole process playing out to

Sears guy: you need to upsize the pipe.

99KW: ROGER THAT.

(few minutes later, back at homesite...99KW upsizes raceway from 1/2 to 3/4)

99KW: F yeah! I fixed it! 

*FIN*


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Similar circumstances depending on where the dyer heat coil breaks on a 3W , or it can even be a clogged vent/OL event _(maybe Sears referred to than as the pipe needing increased size?)_:laughing:~CS~


My bet is actually on that now.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Jhellwig said:


> Yeah 36 years of experience...............
> 
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/wire-ampacities-30241/
> http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfcis-neutrals-37526/


Those were posted when he had less than 36 yrs experience.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Bad Electrician said:


> I have not read all the responses but will BUT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't want to admit that your dealing with an expert in watts warfare , he eats , drinks ,and sleeps watts . He was trained to upsize conduits with his bare hands , he fixes dryers simply by conduit upsizing , he frees up so many watts it make a billy goat puke,


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

MTW said:


> Feedeth not the troll.


But 99KW is not a troll, he is a member in good standing that contributes to post, I cannot think of a bad or strange post by him.

I have seen otherwise good electricians come to off beat conclusions due to their overlooking or missing the real issue. I feel some deeper investigation prior to making the fix would turn up the real culprit.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

10 pages in less than 24 hours... I think we need Cletis back.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> This has got to be a troll thread. No electrician with 30+ _successful _years could be so obtuse and asinine as to think that he and some Sears tech have exclusive knowledge that _NO_ other electrician, or engineer , or pioneer in the field has or has ever had.
> 
> This guy is better than Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, and that _crazed_ German physicist named Georg Ohm.
> 
> Thank you good sir for enlightening all of us dumb electricians who haven't a clue about the physics behind electricity.


Obtuse? What did you call him? That's 2 months in solitary for you!


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99Kilowatt said:


> Thanks for the link,
> 
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html
> 
> ...


Nope, its inductive losses. The smaller conduit increases counter magneto force since the wires carrying an AC inductive field are closer to the tubing. Larger tubing means less counter EMF so less current restriction which in turn means less watts. That's why voltage remained the same, just your amperage was being pushed back to 16 rather than letting 24 through. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor


Seriously you sat down to apply those formulas to your scenario? Because that's only 1/20th of the required equations to determine voltage drop against restricted heat transfer. Yes less heat dissipation increases resistance, but the total worse case scenario would be by no more a few hundredths of an ohm. That would translate to 1/4 of a volt of increased voltage drop. 

You should be on DIY chatroom guiding other people just as clueless rather than correcting electricians who know more than you.


I am joking about the first paragraph folks, inductance is negligible.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

99Kilowatt said:


> The customer has 1/2' EMT running about 50' across his roof with 3 #10 stranded THHN.
> I pulled the wire out and replaced the 1/2" EMT with 3/4" EMT and re-pulled the wire.
> 
> That's it. Now I'm getting a 24 amp reading with the dryer running.
> ...


You'd likely have been proven wrong if you would have meg'd the wires before wasting you customer's money.

Now there is no way to tell where the bad connection was.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Similar circumstances depending on where the dyer heat coil breaks on a 3W , or it can even be a clogged vent/OL event _(maybe Sears referred to than as the pipe needing increased size?)_:laughing:~CS~


I was going to guess clogged lint trap / exhaust.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

1. Conductor termination issue (at the CB, the CB itself or at the dryer. The voltage reading could be from the connection not able to carry old. Good reading at no load open at load. Or it should be a ghost/phantom voltage from the DMM he was using.
2. Conductor issue as as a hove but in the actual conductor.


Now all of these may have been mentioned but I did not red all the post.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

MTW said:


> I realized this was a Cletis thread after the second page.


I was thinking more Frunkishly


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## azsparky (Nov 3, 2008)

Pretty funny stuff guys>all commenters. Yes, def not solved by upsizing conduit. I never read where the OP took a voltage reading under the dryer load. Each leg to grounded conductor and each leg to ground and phase to phase. This is the first thing I would do. Take an accurate "blood test" before removing the gall bladder. Or, I guess you could just upsize the gall bladder. My vote (since the problem was resolved) is for bad termination/s and/or bad connection at breaker. The only problem with my theory is the part about the Sears guy. Do you know about the extensive electrical training they receive? Yeah, me neither...


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I want the name of this Sears guy.....just in case I ever have a weird service call that I'm not quite sure about. I think he would be an excellent asset to have at your disposal:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> 10 pages in less than 24 hours... I think we need Cletis back.


He's too busy running for the '16 on his *'Can I Du Dis' *platform ....~CS~:no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> I want the name of this Sears guy.....just in case I ever have a weird service call that I'm not quite sure about. I think he would be an excellent asset to have at your disposal:thumbsup:


Hell, I wanna retire as a Sears guy, it's probably a step up from my orange shmock plan.....:laughing:~CS~


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Hell, I wanna retire as a Sears guy, it's probably a step up from my orange shmock plan.....:laughing:~CS~


I worked in the Sears hardware dept while in high school and one year after while I was getting started with my apprenticeship. 
The pay was 12 an hour, back in 98' that was pretty good retail money. 
Prior to that we were on commissions, that sucked.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I need to install 2 floor boxes this week for convenience receptacles. I was thinking to use 1/2" PVC, but after reading this thread I may need to go with 3/4".

Any thoughts?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Hell, I wanna retire as a Sears guy, it's probably a step up from my orange shmock plan.....:laughing:~CS~


I thought we had a retirement plan? 

Rob a bank and get caught:thumbsup: Three hot meals, heated complex, a bed to sleep in, free medical care, recreation yard.....all on the taxpayers dime.:laughing:

If you're so inclined, I'm sure there will be a few guys who will ensure that you'll be able to get a little action:laughing::laughing:


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## azsparky (Nov 3, 2008)

*Depends*

Aftershock: Haven't you been paying attention? Those floor boxes need load calcs before you set anything. Now, first of all, how many watts do you need to push through that conduit? Then you need to take into account how much condensation will build up in the conduit from heating and cooling. This can also clog the conduit and restrict the amount of wattage that it will allow to pass through. I personally would recommend 1" to allow for future wattage capabilities. If you're still unsure, call the Sear's tech hotline. Maybe Fareem or Ahkbar can steer you right.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> I want the name of this Sears guy.....just in case I ever have a weird service call that I'm not quite sure about. I think he would be an excellent asset to have at your disposal:thumbsup:


It possibly could be Habib, but I think he works for Bell still. You never know, he maybe moonlighting at Sears.


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## johnnyontheside (Aug 30, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Dibs you'll be back 99K..... ~CS~


 Why? To install a KVAR unit.


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## azsparky (Nov 3, 2008)

Those KVAR units are only effective if sized properly for the wattage being pushed through it. But, if they are, you can literally save pennies a year with them. They are most effective though when simultaneously installed with LED lighting retrofits. If you don't believe me, call Farruuk. He's the KING of KVAR. I think it's a small Sheikdown off the coast of Kuwait. Or Kuwait a minute, was that Quatar?


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## sparkybrian (Jul 7, 2014)

This crazy thread made it over to facebook LOL. I have done many voltage drop calcs and no where in the code is there any reference to conduit size its just ohms/1000 feet of conductors. No reference to wattage drop either.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> I thought we had a retirement plan?
> 
> Rob a bank and get caught:thumbsup: Three hot meals, heated complex, a bed to sleep in, free medical care, recreation yard.....all on the taxpayers dime.:laughing:
> 
> If you're so inclined, I'm sure there will be a few guys who will ensure that you'll be able to get a little action:laughing::laughing:


I'm in Rollie

But we should consider the Sears guy for an inside man ! :thumbup:~CS~:laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparkybrian said:


> This crazy thread made it over to facebook LOL. I have done many voltage drop calcs and no where in the code is there any reference to conduit size its just ohms/1000 feet of conductors. No reference to wattage drop either.


Link?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> I'm in Rollie
> 
> But we should consider the Sears guy for an inside man ! :thumbup:~CS~:laughing:


Maybe we should. That's an awesome idea. We could steal all of their inside knowledge about wattage reducing conduits and sell it to the highest bidder.:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sparkybrian said:


> This crazy thread made it over to facebook LOL. .



*

Well I don't know why I post here tonight I got the feeling that something ain't right 

I'm so scared negotiations will flare And I'm wondering how social networks will fare 

Sears to the left of me , Codes to the right, here I am , Stuck with bum theory from you

Yes I'm stuck with bum theory from you, And I'm wondering what facebook will do 

It's so hard to show my avatar face, Losing control, yeah, we're all over the place 

Mods on the left of me, Owners to the right Here I am, Stuck with bad theory from you 

Well they started out with nothing , and you say that you're a self made man

And your peers keep on postin', slap our BS posts and say 

Please.... Please..... 

Try to make some sense of it all But I can see that it makes no sense at all

Is it cool to repipe watts to get more? Let's just chuck 'ol nec out the door

Sears to the left of me , Codes to the right, here I am , Stuck with bad theory from you*

~C(w/apologies to Steelers Wheel)S~


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thanks Steve, I needed that good laugh.:laughing::laughing:


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## Andy17 (May 12, 2014)

Who the hell runs 1/2" pipe any way!?! 3/4" minimum! Must be why I've never had this problem. I'm so confused now .....ohms law and all I thought I knew is a blur now....I might be a plumber stuck in an electricians van! HELP


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## Irwinote (Feb 28, 2015)

Love this 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.....

in a serious note.(question) When a few of you mentioned a "heat gun" for trouble shooting , we're yall being serious?...(I'm a 3rd yr apprentice and only worked in new construction)


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

still rollin' c'mon guys we're wasting cyberspace here! continue:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Irwinote said:


> Love this [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23].....
> 
> in a serious note.(question) When a few of you mentioned a "heat gun" for trouble shooting , we're yall being serious?...(I'm a 3rd yr apprentice and only worked in new construction)



Yes. It puts a good (and readily available) load on the circuit. 


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## Irwinote (Feb 28, 2015)

So that'd be a good simple way of finding voltage drop


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

xxxxxx


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

meadow said:


> Link?


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=970541159623999&set=gm.653524708108382&type=1&theater


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> I'm in Rollie
> 
> But we should consider the Sears guy for an inside man ! :thumbup:~CS~:laughing:


If you did not cash out of Sears a few years ago you are screwed.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

triden said:


> I think we learned a valuable lesson here - one which leads to the beauty and the beast of the scientific method. Science is a great tool that we can learn from and use to discover the world, but even though the method is tried and true, the analysis is what most often fails. Science is factual, but many many people lack the discernment to properly understand their observations. The problem is not with the method, but with the human component. We are let down and fail so often because we are either trying to look for something, or we understand something to be true that just isn't actually happening!
> 
> In a similar fashion, 99killowatt is successful at driving the car, but he doesn't really understand how pressing the gas peddle makes it move. - although he has his theories.
> 
> There are many contractors out there who can follow the NEC or CEC and run a million dollar business but have no idea what makes the lights turn on...not that there is anything wrong with that.


When 99kilowatt presses on his accelerator the linkage opens the butterfly throttle valve in the air intake. That extra volume of air flow is detected by the mass air flow sensor which sends a signal to the computer to lengthen the pulse to the injector coils.......is this what he thinks?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

> Originally Posted by triden View Post
> I think we learned a valuable lesson here - one which leads to the beauty and the beast of the scientific method. Science is a great tool that we can learn from and use to discover the world, but even though the method is tried and true, the analysis is what most often fails. Science is factual, but many many people lack the discernment to properly understand their observations. The problem is not with the method, but with the human component. We are let down and fail so often because we are either trying to look for something, or we understand something to be true that just isn't actually happening!
> 
> In a similar fashion, 99killowatt is successful at driving the car, but he doesn't really understand how pressing the gas peddle makes it move. - although he has his theories.
> ...


And on that note this thread has pretty much run it's course, a very astute and factual conclusion.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

12 Pages of pure awesomeness!

No way could this not have been one of the more classic troll examples, it was just too perfect all the way through. Every explanation and example was of flawless beauty, executed with pure precision. 

Take notes everyone......:laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

And to think his ability to make money is a sign of his ability to understand electricity :laughing::no:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

What would the use of MC or BX add to this problem?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> And to think his ability to make money is a sign of his ability to understand electricity :laughing::no:


There are a great deal of people who make a lot of money knowing "what they do", but not knowing why they do it, or that they don't know it all. I can tell that on this forum there are a lot of people who know more than me but I have made a ton of money by doing what I know how to do.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> There are a great deal of people who make a lot of money knowing "what they do", but not knowing why they do it, or that they don't know it all. I can tell that on this forum there are a lot of people who know more than me but I have made a ton of money by doing what I know how to do.


I know  I fully agree, there is a lot I still don't know, however when someone is trying to explain how something works being arrogant about it does not help.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> What would the use of MC or BX add to this problem?


It wont, its not ferromagnetic :jester:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> I know  I fully agree, there is a lot I still don't know, however when someone is trying to explain how something works being arrogant about it does not help.


Do you know what happens when you press the accelerator?????:thumbsup:


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> *
> Mods on the left of me,*
> 
> ~C(w/apologies to Steelers Wheel)S~


How did you know I was left handed?:laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Do you know what happens when you press the accelerator?????:thumbsup:


My engine is diesel


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## Golden Arc (Apr 28, 2008)

Looks like overfill would have caused a higher amperage.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Take it all apart and put it all back together and it works.
No explaination necessary.
The innards needed to be rebooted by exposing them to ambient light.
I think the OP did a good job.
Poor explanation of why but, a good job.
I wouldn't sell it as a conduit upgrade. Not in writing anyway...


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

So how about if there was, and continues to be a loose neutral somewhere in the circuit?

AND

3 wire cord, with the neutral bonded to the frame,

AND

Poor conduit connections, loose set screws, locknuts, etc,

SO.........

Dryer stops working properly, client replaces dryer thinking it is the problem, however new dryer does the same thing. Client calls 99Kw....

99Kw does some troubleshooting, can't come to any good conclusions, calls Sears guy, who says to upsize the conduit .

99Kw replaces the conduit, and in doing so, creates a proper BOND for the neutral current to flow, even though the neutral wire is still loose, it is BONDED to the frame, and flowing back to the panel through the conduit :blink:.

Dryer is now working, but still has a loose neutral, and 99Kw thinks he has discovered the formula for transwarp beaming.

I realize this is probably a troll thread, but this could have happened.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

All possibilities BarDude

As i alluded to prior, the appliance itself may have internal problems. In the same situation with the bonded 3W , one of the heating coils could go to ground.

What occurs next would depend on the R factor of said damaged coil.....

~CS~


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

This post clearly proves that I still have a lot to learn about this trade. I would pack it up in NJ and move to CA if 99 would take me on as a 30 year apprentice. 

If Columbus was detered by all the na Sayers, where would we be?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

cabletie said:


> This post clearly proves that I still have a lot to learn about this trade. I would pack it up in NJ and move to CA if 99 would take me on as a 30 year apprentice.
> 
> If Columbus was detered by all the na Sayers, where would we be?


Take a lot of 3/4" conduit with you. I hear it is in demand there. :whistling2:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Barjack said:


> So how about if there was, and continues to be a loose neutral somewhere in the circuit?
> 
> I realize this is probably a troll thread, but this could have happened.


I doubt this is a troll thread 99 is a member in good standing.

In replacing the circuit he would have resolved (hopefully) any lose neutral issues. If there was a problem he would have fixed it, just a little too much fix IMO.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

The_Modifier said:


> How did you know I was left handed?:laughing:


Your avatar aren't all Canadians lefties?


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## sparkybrian (Jul 7, 2014)

Barjack said:


> So how about if there was, and continues to be a loose neutral somewhere in the circuit?
> 
> AND
> 
> ...


 Loose neutral  LOL, you do know dryers have almost no neutral/ground current. Everything is 220 except maybe the timer motor.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Has Lucy even replied even once in this whole tarded thread?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparkybrian said:


> Loose neutral  LOL, you do know dryers have almost no neutral/ground current. Everything is 220 except maybe the timer motor.


Then why do all the wiring diagrams show everything besides the heaters on 120?

https://www.google.com/search?q=dry...=isch&q=dryer+wiring+diagram+schematic&imgdii=_


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

meadow said:


> Then why do all the wiring diagrams show everything besides the heaters on 120?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dry...sch&q=dryer+wiring+diagram+schematic&imgdii=_


Because..........everything except the heating elements are 120 VAC. 

Next question:laughing::laughing:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I have nothing to add, except that I just read the whole thread, and thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing. Maybe would have been a little more fun if 99 hadn't retreated (disappeared) so soon, but worth a laugh all the same.


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## sparkybrian (Jul 7, 2014)

meadow said:


> Link?


http://www.mikeholt.com/technnical-voltage-drop-calculations-part-one.php


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

sparkybrian said:


> Loose neutral  LOL, you do know dryers have almost no neutral/ground current. Everything is 220 except maybe the timer motor.


Tumbler motor???????:thumbsup:


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## sparkybrian (Jul 7, 2014)

meadow said:


> Then why do all the wiring diagrams show everything besides the heaters on 120?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dry...=isch&q=dryer+wiring+diagram+schematic&imgdii=_


OK, I stand corrected the heating elements take 22.5 amps, so the motor and controls draw about 2 amps which would have to be carried on the neutralor the ground on a 3 wire plug unit. So a loose neutral would not show the change in current 99 measured.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

sparkybrian said:


> OK, I stand corrected the heating elements take 22.5 amps, so the motor and controls draw about 2 amps which would have to be carried on the neutralor the ground on a 3 wire plug unit. So a loose neutral would not show the change in current 99 measured.


Motor on average is 5 amps, most often around 6.5 amps. 10 amps on the neutral I not unheard of. Look at the label on your dryer.


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## Keyrick (Nov 10, 2010)

Who runs EMT outside on a residential roof?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Keyrick said:


> Who runs EMT outside on a residential roof?


People concerned about allowing too many watts to get to the dryer. :whistling2::laughing:

Welcome back, long time since you were here.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Keyrick said:


> Who runs EMT outside on a residential roof?


Up here in the Bay Area we have a lot of "Eichler" homes. They have flat roofs and are slab on grade foundations. A lot of the original wiring was EMT in the slab or 2 wire NM cable through the walls and the roof.

Almost all of these homes have EMT somewhere on the roof.


----------

