# Refusing a union job



## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Are you an apprentice or journeyman?


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## mdny (Jan 22, 2012)

.

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## mdny (Jan 22, 2012)

Journeyman


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

It *depends upon the local*, but since you originally accepted the call you are required to fill it until laid off. Since you quit you have to deal with the consequences, which in my local means you go to the end of the list and you have to wait 5 days before being able to accept another call.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

mdny said:


> What are the consequences for going to work and its an evening shift. You realize you couldn't work nights and you quit before you started. "But showed up to the site" now they tell you you're not cleared to go back to work and have to file a grievance? Has anyone dealt with something like this or heard of someone ?


How precious.


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## mdny (Jan 22, 2012)

.

.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

mdny said:


> I've been out of work for 1.5 years and this was my first call back to work. I've never been in trouble before. I think that's quite extreme if you're right. Especially when the standard rate of unemployed union AJ is 77 weeks now. And you're not allowed to work N.U.


If you've been out of work that long, you should have figured out a way to do the evening work. I don't have a spec of sympathy for you.


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## mdny (Jan 22, 2012)

I totally agree with accepting work. Under the circumstances with such a short period of notice they gave me I was unable to find a sitter for my baby. So I had a choice, work or family. Thanks for your unsympathetic behavior.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mdny said:


> I totally agree with accepting work. Under the circumstances with such a short period of notice they gave me I was unable to find a sitter for my baby. So I had a choice, work or family. *Thanks for your unsympathetic behavior.*


Welcome to the forum where you will get little sympathy, lots advice good and bad and as much electrical information from quite a few excellent electricians as you need.

But it seems you could have figured out early that if the start time is 6:00PM it was going to be an evening job.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mdny said:


> I totally agree with accepting work. Under the circumstances with such a short period of notice they gave me I was unable to find a sitter for my baby.


So talk to the hall about staying on the job and filling the call and arrange a sitter. Keep in mind from their perspective you denied someone else who has been out of 77 weeks a job and the contractor needs someone to fill that call. 

Most folks are sympathetic about taking care of family first so a reasonable amount of effort on your part should get you a good result.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mdny said:


> So I had a choice, work or family. Thanks for your unsympathetic behavior.


We are adults, this is not grade school. You asked a serious question and you got a truthful answer. I suspect many at the hall would feel the same as MD.

Of course we could treat you like a baby and lie to you, tell you you did nothing wrong and that every thing will be all right. Would that have helped you?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> So talk to the hall about staying on the job and filling the call and arrange a sitter. Keep in mind from their perspective you denied someone else who has been out of 77 weeks a job and the contractor needs someone to fill that call.
> 
> Most folks are sympathetic about taking care of family first so a reasonable amount of effort on your part should get you a good result.


I would have talked to the on site supervisor that evening and explained the situation, next morning I would have been at the hall to discuss possible alternatives to keeping my spot on the list as someone filled my evening job.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I'll always remember on a job an ironworker pusher who would tell his crew "Don't wanna work,Go Home!"


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Yes this issue has come up in the past...a few times. Some times the reason for not wanting to take the job was warranted, other times it was bull****. In your case, what Brian suggested is your best bet. When I was a General Foreman I had this issue presented to me a few times. When you were given the job did they tell you the work hours? If not, then you absolutely should have had a talk with Supervision prior to quitting. We are instructed from 1st Year not to "quit" or refuse a work opportunity. If it is impossible to man the job given to you for valid reasons, there are ways to handle the situation. Quitting is NOT the way to handle it. In my local, if you just "quit" before laying out the reasons and exhausting every means of keeping that job...you go to the bottom of the list. Giving you the job that you don't "want" (warranted or not) caused another Brother to be out longer. We're not talking days here...we're possibly talking weeks. 

I understand your choice of family over work. However, you should have posted this question BEFORE taking action. 

I also recommend to all journeymen to ASK the HOURS of the job when you call the shop for the first time. Once you show up...a whole new set of problems arise. If you found out the hours were not acceptable for you in the beginning, you could have told Employment that you can not work nights as you have a child to care for. End of story. 

Accepting the job, showing up, finding out that it's nights and you can't work nights and quitting...??? Unacceptable. The onus is on you to make sure your situation is under control and that you work when given a job. I feel for you man. Not a good situation to be in.

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Double Post


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I have a question from a non union electrician. It sounds like you expect to be laid off and returned to the hall. Does anyone ever work for the same shop? I could not get used to that type of work . I personally like working for the same shop, with the same crew( more or less) 
As far as the night work assignment, I would think that would be explained when you.got the assignment? No. Just wondering


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

NacBooster29 said:


> I have a question from a non union electrician. It sounds like you expect to be laid off and returned to the hall. Does anyone ever work for the same shop? I could not get used to that type of work . I personally like working for the same shop, with the same crew( more or less)
> As far as the night work assignment, I would think that would be explained when you.got the assignment? No. Just wondering


Yes Nac...of course. In the union...at least here in NYC we call it Basic. 

It's like this...I get a job ticket to come work for you. My ticket for employment with you is for 6 months. Say after 4 months you like my work and want me to work for you steady. You make me part of your Basic Work Force and do not return to the hall after the 6 months is up. The shop I'm with now as a Project Manager...I was here 23yrs ago as an apprentice. In between I've only worked for 4 shops in 26yrs. There are guys where I am now with over 30yrs here. 

My old man used to say not to get used to that revolving door...try to become basic...earn your (non existent) gold watch with a contractor. Over the years the mentality has changed...we went through a period where young guys got spoiled working only 6 months out of the year. Thankfully that mentality...at least here in NYC is pretty much gone. If you can get into a shop who pays their benefits, treats you well, and does good quality work...you stay there. Hell, I carried the same crew with me in my last shop for 9yrs. Same 12 men who were my aces...most of the jobs I ran were upwards of 60 men, so my aces were assigned as sub foremen or lead men.

Normally you are told you are being assigned to a night job when you get your ticket. 
Hope that clears things up for you.

Steve from NYC


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

NacBooster29 said:


> I have a question from a non union electrician. It sounds like you expect to be laid off and returned to the hall. Does anyone ever work for the same shop? I could not get used to that type of work . I personally like working for the same shop, with the same crew( more or less)
> As far as the night work assignment, I would think that would be explained when you.got the assignment? No. Just wondering


Absolutely. There are lots of folks who work for the same contractor for years. It is up to the contractor basically if they want to keep you ( and the worker if he wants to be kept ).


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

NacBooster29 said:


> I have a question from a non union electrician. It sounds like you expect to be laid off and returned to the hall. Does anyone ever work for the same shop? I could not get used to that type of work . I personally like working for the same shop, with the same crew( more or less)
> As far as the night work assignment, I would think that would be explained when you.got the assignment? No. Just wondering


I have employees that have been with us from the first year to date, going on 27 years in business. As we grew I picked up new employees the good ones are still working the others are working elsewhere.


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## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> I have a question from a non union electrician. It sounds like you expect to be laid off and returned to the hall. Does anyone ever work for the same shop? I could not get used to that type of work . I personally like working for the same shop, with the same crew( more or less)


Yeah; as said before. There's a lot of JWs and apprentices that work for the same shop. Union and non-union is pretty much the same principle with the exception our contractors don't have the option to compete with eachother with our wages.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mdny said:


> What are the consequences for going to work and its an evening shift. You realize you couldn't work nights and you quit before you started. "But showed up to the site" now they tell you you're not cleared to go back to work and have to file a grievance? Has anyone dealt with something like this or heard of someone ?


If the procedure in your jurisdiction is to file a grievance, it may be, that the subject, cannot be considered without this process. 

I have taken night jobs with the understanding that I could sleep uninterrupted for a minimum of 5 hours during the shift. Both times i took these night jobs were a win/ win. Most of the time I ended up working the next shift so the company, and I, made plenty of money.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

eejack said:


> Absolutely. There are lots of folks who work for the same contractor for years. It is up to the contractor basically if they want to keep you ( and the worker if he wants to be kept ).


Right on. Personally I like to work off the list, it suits me. I love the change. I like the fact knowing that after the job it's a new round of faces and work places. Another plus is chasing money. I know guys that are steady and if their contractor is not going after the big work, they get little OT. It's all what makes you happy.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I have had to work nights for years and hated every single second of it. "Had to" or not eat or have somewhere to sleep. It was non-union in a factory for far less than you make.
Go to the back of the list. It's where you belong.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Right on. Personally I like to work off the list, it suits me. I love the change. I like the fact knowing that after the job it's a new round of faces and work places. Another plus is chasing money. I know guys that are steady and if their contractor is not going after the big work, they get little OT. It's all what makes you happy.


That is pretty much the way I go about things. I really like going to a particular job knowing that I am going back to the hall when I leave that job. You get the best variety of sites, work and folks to work with that way.

Nothing wrong with staying with one shop, just not what I like to do.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

It's just preference as the boys said above. I've had 26 weekers that have been fantastic...that I've offered to put the word in to the Super to make Basic and they didn't want it. Rule #1 of Supervision...no preferential treatment, treat everyone as you want to be treated. I've ended up getting guys BACK on totally different tickets who remembered me treating them good and you know what...its a win win situation. They know I demand quality but in return give them direction and a good job environment. If you can make it on 6 month tickets more power to you! Most of the guys who prefer to go out on tickets take a lot of classes at our hall...and being that I'm an instructor I end up meeting them that way. When they come the jobsite I've often gotten guys that I've taught Code or Supervision to

Steve from NYC


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I have had to work nights for years and hated every single second of it. "Had to" or not eat or have somewhere to sleep. It was non-union in a factory for far less than you make.
> Go to the back of the list. It's where you belong.


John,

I have worked all kinds of hours, but the worse 3 months of my career were when I worked nights from 7:00-7:00 7 days a week. Felt like I had no life.

Went home watched TV from 8:00-12:00, slept, ate diner and back to work. At work I was on watch, I did absolutely nothing, but watched the equipment and NOTHING ever happened. Slow, boring, tiring.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

I worked 530p till 4am on a job..... Horrible... Shift!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> I worked 530p till 4am on a job..... Horrible... Shift!


I could do 4:00AM-5:30AM.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

brian john said:


> John,
> 
> I have worked all kinds of hours, but the worse 3 months of my career were when I worked nights from 7:00-7:00 7 days a week. Felt like I had no life.
> 
> Went home watched TV from 8:00-12:00, slept, ate diner and back to work. At work I was on watch, I did absolutely nothing, but watched the equipment and NOTHING ever happened. Slow, boring, tiring.


I did 8:00 pm til 8:00 am for 3 years. Then 8:00 am to 8:00 pm for a few more.
So, when a guy says he cannot work those hours I do understand. But sometimes you make the sacrifice and do what you must.
I payed my dues it would seem? When I worked for the railroad I worked third shift with tues and weds night off for two years.
This was after my apprenticeship.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> I worked 530p till 4am on a job..... Horrible... Shift!


Im doing that now, Im not finding it too bad being single and using earplugs and blacking my bedroom windows out.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

chewy said:


> Im doing that now, Im not finding it too bad being single and using earplugs and blacking my bedroom windows out.


Lemme guess on a job with 2 shifts and dayshift is working 10's.... Thats how i got stuck on it!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Try rotating shift work, switching shifts every week so everyone gets same deal. Nothing worse than that, it takes a week to get used to a shift, then you change. Ughh, don't miss those days, did it for years.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> Lemme guess on a job with 2 shifts and dayshift is working 10's.... Thats how i got stuck on it!


Nah its on an office refurb, we are doing section by section at night so we dont disturb them during the day.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Zog said:


> Try rotating shift work, switching shifts every week so everyone gets same deal. Nothing worse than that, it takes a week to get used to a shift, then you change. Ughh, don't miss those days, did it for years.


Swing shift sucks. Michelin America still uses it. All production people swing is what I mean. Not sure about the trades.
When I worked for them some years ago the maintenance crew was on days with a night shift.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Zog said:


> Try rotating shift work, switching shifts every week so everyone gets same deal. Nothing worse than that, it takes a week to get used to a shift, then you change. Ughh, don't miss those days, did it for years.


I swear that would kill me in the long run.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

I did a 2 day -2 graveyard -2 swing then 3 days off rotating shift for 2 years. Really screws you up.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> I have had to work nights for years and hated every single second of it. "Had to" or not eat or have somewhere to sleep. It was non-union in a factory for far less than you make.
> Go to the back of the list. It's where you belong.


That doesn't sound like Compassionate Conservatism!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:
I'm glad I'm not working for the union where evidently you look out for 
#1


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

i was going to work a nuke outage couple years back. when it came to dividing up shifts i heard all kinds of excuses and they never asked for proof. #1 was diabetes. too much change in repetition changes blood sugar.well, if i ever want first shift at a nuke, you know what i have...just saying. what a coincidence that so many guys suddenly are diabetic. they must have some prior knowledge on how these shifts get divided. i havent used this ever, but i could be borderline. who knows? you can use this post if u want. no haters please?


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

cl219um said:


> i was going to work a nuke outage couple years back. when it came to dividing up shifts i heard all kinds of excuses and they never asked for proof. #1 was diabetes. too much change in repetition changes blood sugar.well, if i ever want first shift at a nuke, you know what i have...just saying. what a coincidence that so many guys suddenly are diabetic. they must have some prior knowledge on how these shifts get divided. i havent used this ever, but i could be borderline. who knows? you can use this post if u want. no haters please?



I'm actually diabetic, and it can mess with your body. But I would just make accomodations for that. I have a pump so I am able to tweak the amount of insulin on a minute by minute basis, if needed. When I was on injections once the insulin is in your system, you have to make sure you eat at the right time, and don't skip a meal. I don't miss those days.
But honestly if guys use this as an out, they should have to provide documentation. And I would expect co workers not to ridicule me for not being able to do something. I personally don't use my illness as a crutch,.as there will probably be a time when I can't do things that I can do now.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

Hello guys. I am currently a non union apprentice with just 3 years in the trade. Not an electrician yet but i can bend and install pipe, pull wire and i know basic circuitry as far as residential and commercial goes. I usually work alone on small jobs and i do mostly service calls. The shop is very small.
Now, after a years effort I have just recieved my initiation letter for local 25 in long island ny. The letter says that i will be joining the cw/ce program. Ive been searching online for SPECIFIC information about this particular program...as it applies to local 25.
I havent found much except for different info from other locals around the country whose wage scale and program format differ from one another. I need the specific info as it applies to local 25. I called up the local and was told that i will recieve the information once i am initiated. However i wont be initiated until October 9 and i would really like to have some sort of idea as to what it is exactly that i will be doing. From reading the forum here i understand that it is not part of the regular apprentice-to-journeyman thing. Therefore my question is..then what is it? Can i progress? Is there any schooling? If not then can i switch to the regular apptenticeship? If so, how? And what do i have to do? How many levels are there before becoming a journeyman? What is the pay rate for EVERY LEVEL of this program IN LOCAL 25?

Questions like the are what i need answers to. Searching online i get nowhere except for the info as it applies to OTHER locals. Large pdf files on the cw/ce program for other locals. I know the answers to these questions for just about every local except for the one i am going into lol.
k
If there is anyone here from local 25 ,or hell even local 3 which is right next door, then can you please inform me. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks guys.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi there, and welcome to the forum. 

OK, in a nutshell, you will be doing exactly the same thing you are doing now. However, your benefit package just went up exponentially. You are basically what we call the M Division here in Local 3. LU25 has some great guys in that local and hopefully you'll end up with someone who will continue teaching you. Trust me, in the amount of time you have in, you still have a ways to go. Basically, you are an "organized shop" that will be doing and bidding on jobs to combat the non union contractors in your jurisdiction. 

Yes you will be eligible to take classes but you are not part of the Apprenticeship. I do know of guys that went from CW/CE into the apprenticeship. Remember however, that you will not be "jumping" any years if you get into the Apprenticeship. You will effectively start fresh. You don't get any CW/CE Credit towards the Apprenticeship. Look at it like this...you are on the long hard road to A Salary per Hour. By not going through the Apprenticeship, it will take you longer to make the "big bucks"...however, you also do not have to dedicate 2 nights a week to going to school until 8pm. You CAN be used on A Rated Construction Jobs if you are a Helper. So you will be exposed to all types of construction...from small to big jobs. 

As for your pay for each YEAR of your Apprenticeship (wrong word...Apprentices are a specific animal, you are called a Helper)...but you get what I mean...I'm LU3, I can't tell you what your rates there will be. I can tell you that our M Division Helpers make comparable money per year to Apprentices. For example:

First Year Apprentice = First Year Helper...and so on. 

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. 

Welcome to the Forum and Welcome to the Brotherhood!

Steve from NYC


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

icefalkon thanks a million. i posted these questions on 3 other threads so please forgive me if u see it somewhere else. i was just desperate for an answer.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> icefalkon thanks a million. i posted these questions on 3 other threads so please forgive me if u see it somewhere else. i was just desperate for an answer.


No worries lol no worries. Relax. You'll be fine. Take this opportunity and RUN with it. I mean that. Being accepted to even this is a HUGE step above being non union. Your opportunity for advancement just increased ten fold. 

Steve from NYC


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

so icefalkon are u saying that there is no schooling at all in this program? if not then how will i progress? By time served? I dont mind starting the actual appreniceship from scratch if i have to. But im just wondering if there is any kind of school or classes in the cw/ce program that i can attend meanwhile. Or correct me if i misunderstood you on that aspect.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

in other words will the classes that i AM eligible to take allow me to progress to journeyman.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> so icefalkon are u saying that there is no schooling at all in this program? if not then how will i progress? By time served? I dont mind starting the actual appreniceship from scratch if i have to. But im just wondering if there is any kind of school or classes in the cw/ce program that i can attend meanwhile. Or correct me if i misunderstood you on that aspect.


OK, you did not get accepted to their Apprenticeship Program. You are part of the...lets combat non union program. Therefore you are not REQUIRED to take 4yrs worth of classes twice a week. Now...that does not mean you are not ALLOWED to take other classes the local offers. Everything from Basic Wiring, Conduit Bending (everyone should take that class), Motor Controls, to Citizenship (which allows you to get paid your full salary when you're out on Jury Duty). 

You will progress YEARLY...What YEAR Helper did they take you in as? If it's 1st Year, then you work your way up to 5th Year Helper and then become a Journeyman...or Mechanic...whatever the nomenclature is for CW/CE. 

It's basically the same thing as an Apprentice but without the school twice a week. 

Hope that helps!

Steve from NYC


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> It's basically the same thing as an Apprentice but without the school twice a week.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> Steve from NYC


Local #25 might be different. In our local ( #164 ) our cw/ce apprentices go to class for the same number of years and their pay increases depend upon passing those classes. The only difference, at least in our local, is the cw/ce guys go to class at night and the 'A' apprentices go during the day.

Welcome to the site and the trade Spiderneck - enjoy.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> OK, you did not get accepted to their Apprenticeship Program. You are part of the...lets combat non union program. Therefore you are not REQUIRED to take 4yrs worth of classes twice a week. Now...that does not mean you are not ALLOWED to take other classes the local offers. Everything from Basic Wiring, Conduit Bending (everyone should take that class), Motor Controls, to Citizenship (which allows you to get paid your full salary when you're out on Jury Duty).
> 
> You will progress YEARLY...What YEAR Helper did they take you in as? If it's 1st Year, then you work your way up to 5th Year Helper and then become a Journeyman...or Mechanic...whatever the nomenclature is for CW/CE.
> 
> ...


it certainly does help. thanks and i will be in touch.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

eejack said:


> Local #25 might be different. In our local ( #164 ) our cw/ce apprentices go to class for the same number of years and their pay increases depend upon passing those classes. The only difference, at least in our local, is the cw/ce guys go to class at night and the 'A' apprentices go during the day.
> 
> Welcome to the site and the trade Spiderneck - enjoy.


thanks eejack. Happy to be here.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

Can any of you guys tell me what happens after initiation into the IBEW? Do i begin working immediately or does it depend on demand? (i.e, is it actually possible that the so called "bench" can be the first stop?) Doesnt make sense if the initial intention of the cw/ce program was to take me "away" from a non union shop in which i was currently WORKING. I dont think they would be so silly as to actually sit around a table, set a date for initiation and call a guy up if they did not at least have immediate placement for the poor bastard. Especially since they first told me to "wait" until they set the date of initiation themselves (as oppossed to some higher city or government agency impossing a specific date for them, like with the police and fire department academies). Basically does Initiation=Immediate placement? Or not necessarilly? Has any of you actually seen or heard of a WORKING person being lured away from an open shop, get initiated into the union and then IMMEDIATELY told to go sit at home? And if so, how can it possibly be ok for them to do something like that? Yes dont get me wrong, future periods of temporary unemployment along the way i understand. But im asking about the INITIAL entry into the union.

Secondly, during periods of unemployment with the ibew, how long do they expect you to go before it is "ok" to temporarily seek non union work. I have seen post on here of guys experiencing periods of unemployment stretching into OVER A YEAR AND A HALF. Now thats kinda crazy i think. I have never been unemployed during my time in the electrical field (only 3 years but...) or any other previous field (army/security) for that matter but i think i hear that the period of unemployment benefit collection is only 6 months. In NEW YORK CITY that is quite more than long enough to find work doing electrical or even something else if you have to. I have never had a problem here. Too many people (residential) and businesses (commercial) here for me to be unemployed for an unreasonable amount of time. 

But if my UI benefits run out, is there some sort of agreement between the goverment and labor unions which allows union members to collect unemployment benefits indefinetely??? Will i actually be expected to dwell in New York City and ignore all of the opprotunities which surround me? Or will the union have sense enough to allow a poor guy to TEMPORARILY seek non union employment if his benefits run out & they STILL dont have a place for him? If not, what am i suppossed to do in that case?

I am willing to go the distance with the ibew. But im just thinking ahead. Especially since im currently working with a very active open shop which has work as far into the horizon as we can currently see. And no i cannot leave new york. Working wife with her own career going on here. No such thing as pick up the family and "go". And neither is that even necessary to be quite honest. At least not for me anyways. Like i said, plenty of opportunities in nyc, but i wanna see about the union route.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Give me an hour and ill answer all your questions. You will be employed.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> Can any of you guys tell me what happens after initiation into the IBEW? Do i begin working immediately or does it depend on demand? (i.e, is it actually possible that the so called "bench" can be the first stop?) Doesnt make sense if the initial intention of the cw/ce program was to take me "away" from a non union shop in which i was currently WORKING. I dont think they would be so silly as to actually sit around a table, set a date for initiation and call a guy up if they did not at least have immediate placement for the poor bastard. Especially since they first told me to "wait" until they set the date of initiation themselves (as oppossed to some higher city or government agency impossing a specific date for them, like with the police and fire department academies). Basically does Initiation=Immediate placement? Or not necessarilly? Has any of you actually seen or heard of a WORKING person being lured away from an open shop, get initiated into the union and then IMMEDIATELY told to go sit at home? And if so, how can it possibly be ok for them to do something like that? Yes dont get me wrong, future periods of temporary unemployment along the way i understand. But im asking about the INITIAL entry into the union.
> 
> Secondly, during periods of unemployment with the ibew, how long do they expect you to go before it is "ok" to temporarily seek non union work. I have seen post on here of guys experiencing periods of unemployment stretching into OVER A YEAR AND A HALF. Now thats kinda crazy i think. I have never been unemployed during my time in the electrical field (only 3 years but...) or any other previous field (army/security) for that matter but i think i hear that the period of unemployment benefit collection is only 6 months. In NEW YORK CITY that is quite more than long enough to find work doing electrical or even something else if you have to. I have never had a problem here. Too many people (residential) and businesses (commercial) here for me to be unemployed for an unreasonable amount of time.
> 
> ...


Hi there,

Ok, firstly you will be employed. You will not be put on the bench.

Secondly, there is no..as in zero point in time where it is OK to seek work as a non union electrician according to the By Laws of the International Office. Do NOT get caught. I've seen what happens and it's not pretty. 

There is no "special agreement" between Labor Unions and the Federal Government concerning Unemployment Insurance, it is a State thing not a Federal thing. As for your medical benefits running out that is determined by your Local. Here in Local 3 we have extended the participants medical benefits to one full year of unemployment. That is unheard of anywhere else. Due to the fact that we have 30,000 members in Local 3, we are able to do this. Smaller Locals don't have the funding to do something like that, it's something each and every member of Local 3 should be VERY thankful for. 

As for your wait time on the bench. That is determined by a few factors. First and foremost...be a damn good electrician. Show the shop you're assigned to that you're an asset. Fact of our industry is, everyone gets unemployed at some point in their career. It is YOUR JOB to work to minimize that time out every single day you go to work. The more you know, the more you're worth. Right now your foot is in the door. If you are classified as a Helper, you will be working continuously.When you reach Journeyman status is when your real concerns about being unemployed comes about. There are ALWAYS calls for Helpers and/or Apprentices. That is because you are cheap labor. Fact of life. Become the best damn Helper there is and then the best damn Journeyman you can be...that exponentially increases your work opportunity. Network as often as possible, get to know people at the Hall. Go to your union meetings. If possible join Clubs. Whatever it takes to maintain employment over the years. Most importantly...be an ethical electrician. Do the best you can. Don't be influenced by those who are jaded and don't ever let your personal standards slip. 

Going back to moonlighting...I cannot stress enough that officially there is zero tolerance for that. Every local has their own views and punishments. I've seen guys busted for it, and two in particular were worse than the norm.They however owned non union shops and were full blown busted. They both were kicked out of Local 3 and lost all their monies. Interesting thing that Working Agreement is...if you willingly violate the Rules of Conduct of the International Office, you risk loosing a LOT of money.

Your history is your own, there have been MANY Brothers who have traveled when times were bad with wives and kids. It's what we do, part of our culture. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. Just do not get caught breaking the laws you agree to when entering the Brotherhood. 

I am not saying that IBEW electricians don't moonlight or work for non union shops when they're laid off. That is ridiculous...of course it happens. Just be discrete, and more importantly, work towards being THAT guy that the contractors that do CW/CE work want running their jobs. I understand your concern, you're leaving a shop that's busy, to enter into something life changing. It's for the better, believe me when I say that. 

Staying employed is up to you. It's about the work you do, the friends you make, the connections you make professionally. I am great friends with two guys who were Organized...one is now very high up in the Apprentice Department. He's a great electrician, true to the IBEW to the core. The other guy is my buddy who is a Steward, one of the fairest guys I've ever met. Neither of them went through the Program, they made the ABSOLUTE BEST of the opportunity given them. 

I can only hope you do the same. 

Best of luck.

Steve from NYC


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mdny said:


> What are the consequences for going to work and its an evening shift. You realize you couldn't work nights and you quit before you started. "But showed up to the site" now they tell you you're not cleared to go back to work and have to file a grievance? Has anyone dealt with something like this or heard of someone ?


When you applied, did you say that you could work any shift?


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Ok, firstly you will be employed. You will not be put on the bench.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the info and advice. Im gonna make the best of this believe that


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Just to add to icefalkon's fine post, take advantage of every single educational opportunity the local offers. The more you know, the more you are worth to some site or job or contractor. If you get credentials, keep them up to date and make sure when you get to a job, the foreman is aware of those credentials. It might be something simple like being trained on a particular piece of equipment that keeps you working longer.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> Just to add to icefalkon's fine post, take advantage of every single educational opportunity the local offers. The more you know, the more you are worth to some site or job or contractor. If you get credentials, keep them up to date and make sure when you get to a job, the foreman is aware of those credentials. It might be something simple like being trained on a particular piece of equipment that keeps you working longer.


Also good advice. And thank you Brother!

Steve from NYC


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

eejack said:


> Just to add to icefalkon's fine post, take advantage of every single educational opportunity the local offers. The more you know, the more you are worth to some site or job or contractor. If you get credentials, keep them up to date and make sure when you get to a job, the foreman is aware of those credentials. It might be something simple like being trained on a particular piece of equipment that keeps you working longer.


Thanks. Will do


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

HELP! I just got off the phone with the local. The lady said that i will be comin in as a cw 3. But then she said that I WILL NOT BE WORKING. Thats exactly what she said. She said that after initiation that i should give the hall a call and see if they have placement. She said that things were slow right now but that "You never know".

Now my only problem is that RIGHT NOW i AM actually working with a very busy albiet non union shop. Once im initiated am i suppossed to just quit my job only to sit on the bench?. Should i continue working for my current shop until the union has placement? why am i forced to break the rules as soon as i get in? How can i be wrong? Not like i went seeking non union work. Im ALREADY working. Icefalkon please help. I need ur advice. This is what i feared.

I would like to just ignore the lady and say what the hell does she know. But then why would she even say that? I didnt ask her about employment. I called to ask her what level i will come in as. Once she told me "cw3", she then immediatelly said "But you will NOT be working. Your name will be..." put on or in some kind of book. Just like that out the blue.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I would keep working. I don't know the specifics of your shop, but were you salted? A lot of time the union will send a guy into a non union shop to solicite workers to jump ship. Or even to take a vote to organize that shop. I'm not knocking going union. But you may have been tricked.maybe in an attempt to break up your current shop? Do what's right for yourself.
I personally wouldn't give my notice unless I had something lined up. Once you burn that bridge most contractors will not take you back.
Good luck


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> HELP! I just got off the phone with the local. The lady said that i will be comin in as a cw 3. But then she said that I WILL NOT BE WORKING. Thats exactly what she said. She said that after initiation that i should give the hall a call and see if they have placement. She said that things were slow right now but that "You never know".
> 
> Now my only problem is that RIGHT NOW i AM actually working with a very busy albiet non union shop. Once im initiated am i suppossed to just quit my job only to sit on the bench?. Should i continue working for my current shop until the union has placement? why am i forced to break the rules as soon as i get in? How can i be wrong? Not like i went seeking non union work. Im ALREADY working. Icefalkon please help. I need ur advice. This is what i feared.
> 
> I would like to just ignore the lady and say what the hell does she know. But then why would she even say that? I didnt ask her about employment. I called to ask her what level i will come in as. Once she told me "cw3", she then immediatelly said "But you will NOT be working. Your name will be..." put on or in some kind of book. Just like that out the blue.


I'm here...ok. Let me make a call tomorrow and see what's up. PM me your real name. No promises. 

At least they're starting you at 3rd Year Pay...if that means anything.

Stay working at your regular job until the union calls you to work. 

Steve from NYC


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

Ok stupid off the wall question. Can someone quickly tell me the major differences between a regular fluorescent ballast (for normal fluorescent lighting fixtures) and a SIGN fluorescent ballast? Besides the size of course.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

kill yourself.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

im trying to prove a point to someone


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

A guy at work says he used to be in the sign division and that it is more technical than normal lighting. I asked how and he said that the wiring is more complicated. Ive never worked on anything but normal indoor fluorecent lighting but im sure that each ballast for fluorescent sign has a wiring diagram. So i cant see how it can be more complicated if the wiring diagram is right there. But he says that its different and that there is a reason why signage is a seperate division.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

spiderneck30 said:


> A guy at work says he used to be in the sign division and that it is more technical than normal lighting. I asked how and he said that the wiring is more complicated. Ive never worked on anything but normal indoor fluorecent lighting but im sure that each ballast for fluorescent sign has a wiring diagram. So i cant see how it can be more complicated if the wiring diagram is right there. But he says that its different and that there is a reason why signage is a seperate division.


Ah ok...now I see where you're going with this. Yes there are instances where guys in the Sign Division have complicated installations. That's why in California they have CALCTP Program for advanced lighting controls. It is the premier lighting control class in this country and they're now trying to bring it other states. When you're talking advanced lighting controls you're not just dealing with standard ballasts, nor are you dealing with run of the mill Lutron Systems. The Sign Division often has to deal with these types of lighting controls on a daily basis. PLC systems, computerized advanced zones, etc. 

Bottom line..yeah, he has a valid point. Other bottom line...it is your task not to question his experience but to learn every f*cking thing you can from him. 

I can't be clearer than that brother.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Kind of not on the same topic as got started. But I'm a factory trained tech, for a sign company. We service billboards of all styles. From the amber alert over the highways. To led graphical billboards, to small displays at retail locations. Also scoreboards at various professional sports arenas, and on down..
It is more than ballasts when you get involved with these signs. A well trained electrician can pick right up on it. I don't think someone only trained on these signs would be qualified to do electrical work.
Your best bet is go through the training get your journeyman card. If one particular facet of electrical work interests you pursue it. Knowledge opens many doors.


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## spiderneck30 (Aug 18, 2012)

ok thanks now i see what he meant


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

:thumbsup: There ya go! :thumbsup:


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

I can't imagine refusing a job.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

May not be the one for you.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

black said:


> I can't imagine refusing a job.


I do it all the time. I have an allergy to mc cable and ent. It is best for the contractor to get someone else on the job who enjoys it more.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> I do it all the time. I have an allergy to mc cable and ent. It is best for the contractor to get someone else on the job who enjoys it more.


Wow bro, your local still allows you to refuse a job? In LU3, if you refuse a job, you're guaranteed an interview with the Employment Director lol.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Wow bro, your local still allows you to refuse a job? In LU3, if you refuse a job, you're guaranteed an interview with the Employment Director lol.


We still have choice in our local. It works out best for the contractors and the workers, so we continue to keep it.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> We still have choice in our local. It works out best for the contractors and the workers, so we continue to keep it.


God Bless! I think here in NYC guys abused that option in the 90's and we've been leery of it ever since. Back then we had a lot of guys refuse jobs because there was no OT more often than anything else.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> God Bless! I think here in NYC guys abused that option in the 90's and we've been leery of it ever since. Back then we had a lot of guys refuse jobs because there was no OT more often than anything else.


That will happen in good times - then again in good times we have book II guys working as well.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> We still have choice in our local. It works out best for the contractors and the workers, so we continue to keep it.


Yep. Same here. Been awhile, but I think it's 3 checkmarks still.


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