# Union vs non union



## Godfather452 (Oct 5, 2012)

Im still in school in California i will graduate in a couple mounths should i try and join a union or not what pays better which has better benifets and so forth i would love some advice and to no what thoughs with experience have to say


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## jsavella (Mar 29, 2010)

Stay in school.


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## TTW (Sep 14, 2012)

What type of program are you in? Electrician cert? Associates? Bachelors?


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## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

I started out non union; there are pros and cons,
You will learn more with a non union shop. But you will get lower wages, 
I would not be where I am today, (If I started union)
I was able to get my construction and my industrial license as well I'm a licensed fire alarm tec.
Now I’m also a radiation tec. I work union now and like it, good wages, Benefits, and a good investment plan. 
But eather way work safe, and look out for number one.
Learn to do the job to the best you can and you will do OK
CHEERS & GOOD LUCK


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## Godfather452 (Oct 5, 2012)

Godfather452 said:


> Im still in school in California i will graduate in a couple mounths should i try and join a union or not what pays better which has better benifets and so forth i would love some advice and to no what thoughs with experience have to say


Sorry i should have added im in trade school at wyotech tech for electrcion and need to decide what job i should try and go for when i graduate


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Godfather452 said:


> Sorry i should have added im in trade school at wyotech tech for electrcion and need to decide what job i should try and go for when i graduate


Sorry you (sort of) wasted your time and money BUT if there is union work and you can get in go for it, otherwise go open shop and keep trying for union. 

generally unions have better wages and benefits BUT work MIGHT be limited.

In both cases your present schooling will mean little except to POSSIBLY give you an edge over other green help in the hiring.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

greenman said:


> I started out non union; there are pros and cons,
> You will learn more with a non union shop. But you will get lower wages,
> I would not be where I am today, (If I started union)
> I was able to get my construction and my industrial license as well I'm a licensed fire alarm tec.
> ...


I feel you on that. You're likely to learn more, faster, non union but you're not likely to be compensated as much.

It's ironic that non union you can give so much time skill and money (tools/gas) but earn so little. I don't see the merit in that.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

greenman said:


> You will learn more with a non union shop.


I find this statement very hard to believe.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I find this statement very hard to believe.


I don't. Union contractors tend to stay with the realm realm of work.

When I worked for a non-union contractor, we were pretty diverse in what we did.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Guys, let's be nice to the newbie for once.

Kid, I'll let you in on a little secret: There's an entire world out there that your teachers don't even know exists. A teacher's career part often is college -> teaching. All they've ever seen is the inside of a school. How can they tell you about it?

That VoTech paper might help you get accepted into an apprenticeship program, but that's it. It will help you apply for certain factory maintenance jobs. Maybe some low-voltage contractors will care. You haven't even begun to be an electrician, though.

First off, understand this: Electricians are a CONSTRUCTION trade. We MAKE things. Contrary to popular belief, very little of our work has anything to do with electricity. The job is mounting stuff and pulling wires. Ohm's law is nice, but you really need to know how things are built - and how they used to be built.

You won't learn that from a book. That's why 'job time' is so important. It's not just about 'taking the test.' It's all about the road to get to the test. Every day, on every job, you will learn something.

There are likely two apprenticeship programs in your area- union and not. Apply to both. You state's Dept. of Labor can tell you where they are.


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## greenman (Apr 20, 2012)

Well i got my 442a red seal industrial elec . 309a construction maintenance ele. cfac fire alarm tec.
it is what it is


big2bird said:


> I find this statement very hard to believe.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> Guys, let's be nice to the newbie for once.
> 
> Kid, I'll let you in on a little secret: There's an entire world out there that your teachers don't even know exists. A teacher's career part often is college -> teaching. All they've ever seen is the inside of a school. How can they tell you about it?
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mdfriday said:


> I don't. Union contractors tend to stay with the realm realm of work.


That's BS.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Your learning will depend on the contractor you end up working for, union or non union. Large EC's can handle multi million dollar jobs and there is no substitute for some of the work that can be learned but most of the time a guy will end up just a number and when your number is up so are you. Small EC's are nice because you are less of a number and more of a person. Usually the projects require more responsibilty for an individual to get done correctly and on time. Large EC jobs usually have a rough in crew, wire pulling crew, make up crew. Small EC all those are you. 

As far as union apprenticeship there is school for 5 years and on the job training at the same time. Work reports are filled out every week to keep track of how many hours of work is done in what catagory like rough in, panelboards, trim out, ect. The idea is to have a well rounded apprentice and be able to rotate them somewhere else if they are not getting enough experience in one area.

I have no experience being non union so I can't comment on thier training programs.

The best advice I can give is learn as much as you can to make yourself more employable.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

mdfriday said:


> Union contractors tend to stay with the realm realm of work.


Translation, please?


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

If you are in the Bay Area,the South Bay is experiencing good times,and will be for the next few years,as far as I can tell.In my opinion,being non-union in this area -if you have a choice - is leaving lots of money/benefits on the table.

Apply at all the Bay Area Locals.I would not want this job if I had to work non-union.On the whole the non-union sector has: No decent retirement,usually none at all.Piss-poor healthcare, if any at all.Decidedly lower wages.Less concern for safety,job-efficiency,proper materials,tools,etc,

No-brainer.


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## Bob_B (Aug 2, 2012)

Just started with a non union EC. I am his only employee and he is teaching me everything. I know I could make more and get better benefits union but I'm afraid I wouldn't enjoy the work as much or learn as much. I am almost done with trade school and have learned more on three weeks on the job than I did in nearly two years at school. My boss is training me to be his right hand and says he will increase my pay as I learn.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Bob_B said:


> Just started with a non union EC. I am his only employee and he is teaching me everything. I know I could make more and get better benefits union but I'm afraid I wouldn't enjoy the work as much or learn as much. I am almost done with trade school and have learned more on three weeks on the job than I did in nearly two years at school. My boss is training me to be his right hand and says he will increase my pay as I learn.


Pay keeps men loyal, nothing more.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Pay keeps men loyal, nothing more.


No ethics involved?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Amish Electrician said:


> Guys, let's be nice to the newbie for once.


Lets be honest as well.




> First off, understand this: Electricians are a CONSTRUCTION trade. We MAKE things. Contrary to popular belief, very little of our work has anything to do with electricity. The job is mounting stuff and pulling wires. Ohm's law is nice, but you really need to know how things are built - and how they used to be built.


That can be entirely true, a bit true or not true at all. It really depends on what part of the electrical trade you go into.

I think you are doing a disservice to downplay the need for things like Ohms law. This early in the OPs career he has yet to decide what direction he is heading.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Bob_B said:


> Just started with a non union EC. I am his only employee and he is teaching me everything. I know I could make more and get better benefits union but I'm afraid I wouldn't enjoy the work as much or learn as much. I am almost done with trade school and have learned more on three weeks on the job than I did in nearly two years at school. My boss is training me to be his right hand and says he will increase my pay as I learn.


In my local,the Inside Wireman program,which is 5 years,would have you starting ,I said STARTING, at a little over 22.00, great medical/dental/eye care within a month or two.I realize healthcare is often not even on the radar for young people,foolishly.

With raises each 6 months, till in 5 years time you'll be earning 110K for a 40 hour work week, 50 weeks per year.You better sharpen your pencil and calculate how long it will take you to earn that kind of money.I'm certain if you ask your boss,he'll give you a brutally honest answer.Never.

Combine that with a PAID retirement, not some measly 401k program, you'd have to be what I'll charitably term "mentally challenged" , not to pursue that kind of opportunity.

Both my sons,one a 5th year apprentice,the other a 3rd year, like their jobs,and make good money.Furthermore,you can learn to like a lot of things,if your employer pays you well enough.The younger son's friends,many just now graduating college with their bachelors' degrees (the new h.s. diploma) will require years to catch up to his earning capacity.What's not to like ?


Ask your boss how long till your healthcare, retirement, and 100k per anum wage package starts.


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## Twisty (Oct 1, 2012)

ibuzzard said:


> Translation, please?


I kinda see his point that union stay within its realm of work. I work union,my company does ally types of work,but lately it does seem to suck for apprentices the company finds out you good at, running conduit,pulling wire,fire alarm, whatever it might be, then keeps them only doing that one specialty. It's good for the individual as long as the contractor has work but when they have to travel or hire off the books the tend to become short lived calls because lack of diversity. I would still defiantly say get in union apprenticeship if possible. Try to stand out and grasp as much knowledge as possible. Call any ibew local and get there wage/benefits package, compare it with the non union offers,it should make your choice easy. Good luck either way,stay safe.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Twisty said:


> .....my company does ally types of work,but lately it does seem to suck for apprentices ........the company finds out you good at, running conduit,pulling wire,fire alarm, whatever it might be, .... It's good for the individual as long as the contractor has work but when they have to travel or hire off the books the tend to become short lived calls because lack of diversity. I would still defiantly say get in union apprenticeship if possible.



Again, translation(s) please.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> No ethics involved?


If ethics were inseparable from the market we wouldn't need regulation. It defies free market principles to choose to make less money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> If ethics were inseparable from the market we wouldn't need regulation. It defies free market principles to choose to make less money.


You can do it ethically or not your choice, I take what I consider the high road, my personal ethics are worth more than money.

I have taken a lose on a job, when I found hack work my an ex-employee, I fixed it, eating material and labor.

Make all the excuses you want your personal ethics speak about the type of person you are, no matter what the hacks around you do.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> You can do it ethically or not your choice, I take what I consider the high road, my personal ethics are worth more than money.
> 
> I have taken a lose on a job, when I found hack work my an ex-employee, I fixed it, eating material and labor.
> 
> Make all the excuses you want your personal ethics speak about the type of person you are, no matter what the hacks around you do.


So you would stick with a company with less pay because you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings because somehow that is more ethical? Alright.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

iBuzz...is that $22/hr for 1st Year with beni's included? 

Steve from NYC


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> iBuzz...is that $22/hr for 1st Year with beni's included?
> 
> Steve from NYC


It is 22 and change on the check for a first period apprentice, stepped up each 6 months with satisfactory evaluations and grades.

The healthcare kicks in in about 45 days , I think.The cost of that is probably 5-6 hundred per month,paid by the contractor,and includes medical,dental,eye care.

The pension is also fully paid based on the negotiated contract.It is NOT deducted from that wage.


We do sometimes have to put some of the additional monies won(hopefully) through the negotiation process,towards our healthcare.We in our local carry the retirees healthcare after retirement,those costs are, as you know,always escalating.

So,if you begin at 40% of the Journeymans wage,(currently around 55.00 per hour)you will have 10 raises (the remaining 60%)over the 5 year program to get to the J.W. rate.

These are approximates for my local,among the highest in the nation.I also contribute additional money , the max I'm allowed under our pension laws,currently about an additional 6.00 per hour.But that comes off my taxable income, and is a great deal to make my fund grow faster so I can retire at age 59.So, I am making about 49 per hour and change.You can elect to put this additional money in or not.

So,for myself,working 40 hours per week,50 weeks per year,I make around 110k per year.When I work O.T. ( I now never turn it down with a daughter soon to be married) I can make a lot more.It is very common to make closer to 200 k, especially if you chase the O.T., or are a Foreman or General Foreman.

I prefer to be a hardworking worker bee.Who would want the headaches of running jobs PLUS having to babysit the likes of YOU!My family is far too important to neglect for the stresses of being always at the beck & call of my employer.I am happy where I am at.

My company is among the highest rated E.C.'S in the country,almost always with between 300-500 field electricians.We are progressive ,aggressive, and foresighted with a large state of the art " Support Center " ,or prefab. We always are searching for quicker, better ways to make code-legal installations, working hand-in-hand with manufacturers to redesign products.We are extremely conscious of all new product releases for our field.

I am treated well,am paid well.But I and all our people earn it by working very hard,nothing is given too us.Dead weight is soon disposed of ,as is fitting.

Lazy Union Electricians?Can't speak for other Locals, but that is,for the most part,a crock of **** in my company and my Local.I earn my money.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

ibuzzard said:


> It is 22 and change on the check for a first period apprentice, stepped up each 6 months with satisfactory evaluations and grades.
> 
> The healthcare kicks in in about 45 days , I think.The cost of that is probably 5-6 hundred per month,paid by the contractor,and includes medical,dental,eye care.
> 
> ...


Excellent post brother! Absolutely true. I believe I know which local you're in and yes you guys are the highest I think. Here in NYC our Apprentices start much lower (in the teens) and do big jumps after 3rd Year. A rank and file journeyman makes $51/hr in the check. Our pension is the same as is the additional monies we are allowed to contribute. I have been a General Foreman for the last 17yrs and recently made the jump to PM...but am seriously thinking of going back into the field. My crews always did very well on my jobs and I wish there was more overtime out there to pass around. But currently here in NYC, as elsewhere, OT is often a thing of the past. Most projects are Fast Track to the point where if you get a project that isn't...it's an anomaly! 

Our shop is a "Core and Shell" EC. We build skyscrapers and go from 200 to 500 men depending on the season and what projects are running. There's a reason why we have men here for 20-30yrs. They're treated well, they produce, are appreciated, and are never wanting for the proper safety gear, tools, material, or training. When we get slackers, they are removed immediately and when we get guys that are hustlers, they're offered to be made part of the basic work force. I understand your comment about being supervision lol. It's not easy, but it's what I love. Anyone who tells you they're supervision for the money is full of sh*t. It's not about the money...which of course is nice...it's about bringing a project home, it's about being there when the building tops off, it's about the pride of bringing a project in on time, on budget, with no major accidents. 

I agree with you with your statement, *"...Lazy Union Electricians?Can't speak for other Locals, but that is,for the most part,a crock of **** in my company and my Local.I earn my money."*

Steve from NYC


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Excellent post brother! Absolutely true. I believe I know which local you're in and yes you guys are the highest I think. Here in NYC our Apprentices start much lower (in the teens) and do big jumps after 3rd Year. A rank and file journeyman makes $51/hr in the check. Our pension is the same as is the additional monies we are allowed to contribute. I have been a General Foreman for the last 17yrs and recently made the jump to PM...but am seriously thinking of going back into the field. My crews always did very well on my jobs and I wish there was more overtime out there to pass around. But currently here in NYC, as elsewhere, OT is often a thing of the past. Most projects are Fast Track to the point where if you get a project that isn't...it's an anomaly!
> 
> Our shop is a "Core and Shell" EC. We build skyscrapers and go from 200 to 500 men depending on the season and what projects are running. There's a reason why we have men here for 20-30yrs. They're treated well, they produce, are appreciated, and are never wanting for the proper safety gear, tools, material, or training. When we get slackers, they are removed immediately and when we get guys that are hustlers, they're offered to be made part of the basic work force. I understand your comment about being supervision lol. It's not easy, but it's what I love. Anyone who tells you they're supervision for the money is full of sh*t. It's not about the money...which of course is nice...it's about bringing a project home, it's about being there when the building tops off, it's about the pride of bringing a project in on time, on budget, with no major accidents.
> 
> ...


How do you go about "getting rid" of a slacker?  Times must be changing because from what I've heard an over achiever that makes the others look bad is frowned on.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

wendon said:


> How do you go about "getting rid" of a slacker?  Times must be changing because from what I've heard an over achiever that makes the others look bad is frowned on.


Call the shop for his/her check.Reduction of workforce.Done.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

ibuzzard said:


> Call the shop for his/her check.Reduction of workforce.Done.


Yep. :thumbsup:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> .............. from what I've heard an over achiever that makes the others look bad is frowned on.


I don't get where you guys come up with this BS. When you make what we make, slackers are not tolerated. I, for one, am dog tired when I get home.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I don't get where you guys come up with this BS. When you make what we make, slackers are not tolerated. I, for one, am dog tired when I get home.


3rd what iBuzz said about the reduction...

And 2nd what BB said...we do not tolerate the slacker thing. Someone doesn't pull their weight, an entire crew suffers. Now imagine that being "allowed" on a deck job! Say the pump trucks are coming...there'simply no time for slackers these days. It's about personal responsibility...the jobs are simply too tight to float someone who's not pulling their weight. 

Steve from NYC


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> I don't get where you guys come up with this BS. When you make what we make, slackers are not tolerated. I, for one, am dog tired when I get home.


I come up with it after working many years on jobs with both union and non union contractors and it always seems there is few union guys that are there to ride the clock becuse they are hooked up in some way. Day after day of no production. On the other hand when we get someone like that we fire their ass. 


Again, diffrent areas are diffrent, what someone sees in CA. Is going to be different than what happens where I am.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Most of the companies I've worked for over the years haven't had much of that. I will be honest BBQ, there are guys that "think" they're untouchable but that sh*t doesn't fly on any of my jobs. I've had individuals with that mindset over the years and my response is this...call the Super...I don't want him on my job. If he's a "hooked up" shop guy...put him on someone else's payroll. I've had very little of that over the years. I'm involved with the union and run every job as if it's the one that is going to be in the union paper. To be honest most jerks like that don't WANT to be on jobs with a foreman who's involved. Who are they going to cry to? I've had guys who "thought" their sh*t didn't stink, or were able to pull that crap with other foremen...and came to me to find out that I'm the guy who'll make you fix your mistakes on your own time. If you're a clock jumper (the guy who's already cleaned up his area, tools packed up, and washed up before everyone else) I'll make sure you're with one of my more hard ass'd sub-foremen at the end of the day, etc. A good General Foreman knows whats's going on under his roof and has no problem weeding out the bad seeds as they appear. 

All *we*...and by we I mean the shop, the union, supervision in general...want...is a fair days work for a fair days pay. For those 7hrs, you belong to me to achieve a goal. Guys like you mentioned aren't part of the solution BBQ, they're part of the problem I know you know this. No foreman worth his salt is going to tolerate that kind of nonsense because it lowers his overall production AND hurts his reputation.

In today's economy and the cut throat world of electrical construction...union or non union...there is no room for free loaders.

Steve from NYC


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

icefalkon said:


> Most of the companies I've worked for over the years haven't had much of that. I will be honest BBQ, there are guys that "think" they're untouchable but that sh*t doesn't fly on any of my jobs. I've had individuals with that mindset over the years and my response is this...call the Super...I don't want him on my job. *If he's a "hooked up" shop guy...put him on someone else's payroll. *


Exactly what happens, thanks for proving my point. 






> I'm the guy who'll make you fix your mistakes on your own time.


Hell even us nonunion bosses don't make people work for free, in most areas that is against the law. :laughing:




> All we...and by we I mean the shop, the union, supervision in general...want...is a fair days work for the 7hrs you're with me. For those 7hrs, you belong to me to achieve a goal.


But they get paid for eight right?

Why is that they work seven but get paid for eight? 

Remember you have told us unions do not drive up the costs of construction, so how does all that high labor rate non productive time get paid for?





> No foreman worth his salt is going to tolerate that kind of nonsense because it lowers his overall production AND hurts his reputation.


But strangely I see it happen quite often, got to keep the boys working and not riding the bench. 



> In today's economy and the cut throat world of construction...there is no room for free loaders.


For sure it happens less now but I still see it especially in big companies like the power companies. I go in on a Sunday to change some CTs and the power company has six trucks and ten guys. Eight of them sit in their trucks and read the paper.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Exactly what happens, thanks for proving my point.
> 
> *Understand that by calling the Superintendent you are getting the man his check. There is no hidden meanings here, there is no burying the hooked up guy. This is a VERY cut throat city BBQ, It's sink or swim. If you don't want to be part of the solution, you're part of the problem. The Union makes that VERY clear to it's members. If you get a justified bad layoff...you will be punished accordingly. Please don't presume to know what I or we do to our slackers. Trust me, they are dealt with. You've heard similar statements from guys in other states, one across the country from you and I...and yet you still don't believe it. What more do you want as proof that we no longer endorse, encourage, or tolerate this behavior? I'm speaking to you as a gentleman and really am curious why such disbelief. We simply do not have the ability or will to tolerate behavior that will make us look bad. What don't you understand about that sir?*
> 
> ...


*Local 3 does not tolerate any of the nonsense that was witnessed in the past. The contractors have made it clear that if you wish to remain employed you will work. End of story. That is all we as union members ask of our Brothers and Sisters BBQ...that they give an honest days work for an honest days pay. Citing an example of a power company putting more men on the job than YOU believe to be necessary doesn't prove or disprove anything. Perhaps those eight men are required to be there for standby. Perhaps that is the required number of men to be there should something with your shutdown goes bad. The FACT of the matter is that you don't know why they are there. Assuming you know everything and assuming that they are there to f*ck the world is simply irrational thinking.*

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Time to try to sleep. We can continue this tomorrow.

Steve from NYC


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> So you would stick with a company with less pay because you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings because somehow that is more ethical? Alright.


You are stuck in the everyone gets a trophy mentality, feeling good and doing what is right for you has NOTHING to do with being ethical.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I go in on a Sunday to change some CTs and the power company has six trucks and ten guys. Eight of them sit in their trucks and read the paper.


I bet if you go in a fire station on Sunday, you would find the same thing. :laughing:
They are on stand by for service calls. I don't think they let the crews take those bucket trucks home.:no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I bet if you go in a fire station on Sunday, you would find the same thing. :laughing:
> They are on stand by for service calls. I don't think they let the crews take those bucket trucks home.:no:


We use the utility for maintenance off hours all the time, we pay for and get off hours crews, so they remain on site and do not have to go on other calls. They are specifically for us and us only paid from by us.

Depending on the utility there can be anywhere from 2 men to 20, typically only one or two are actually working. I understand and want two men for safety. 

But the job where we had 20 men 9 trucks two worked and it cost us $22,000.00. Customer was livid.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> For sure it happens less now but I still see it especially in big companies like the power companies. I go in on a Sunday to change some CTs and the power company has six trucks and ten guys. Eight of them sit in their trucks and read the paper.





big2bird said:


> I bet if you go in a fire station on Sunday, you would find the same thing. :laughing:


You're an idiot. :laughing:




> They are on stand by for service calls. I don't think they let the crews take those bucket trucks home.:no:


Really?

Strange if that was true as they billed the customer for all of them. DT no less.

It was a scheduled shutdown and change at the request of the customer, it was not an outage call.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> But the job where we had 20 men 9 trucks two worked and it cost us $22,000.00. Customer was livid.


That is not the men's fault. I am quite sure the utility told them to go there. The customers beef would be with the utility, and I don't blame them one bit.:no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> That is not the men's fault. I am quite sure the utility told them to go there. The customers beef would be with the utility, and I don't blame them one bit.:no:


Ahh ... the utility sends them because of the contractual requirements of the unions.

You can't have a line truck pull a meter, you can't have meter guy pull a cut out. You can't have a pulling crew pull a meter or pull a cut out. Now you need a supervisor as well ......


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Strange if that was true as they billed the customer for all of them. DT no less.
> 
> It was a scheduled shutdown and change at the request of the customer, it was not an outage call.


You guys have different rules. Out here, the utility would have changed the CT's themselves at no charge. CT's are utility owned and serviced. It is also their discretion as to CT sizing.
Once agin, the guys did not just show up. They were told to. Your inference that the men are lazy is irrelevant.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Ahh ... the utility sends them because of the contractual requirements of the unions.
> 
> You can't have a line truck pull a meter, you can't have meter guy pull a cut out. You can't have a pulling crew pull a meter or pull a cut out. Now you need a supervisor as well ......


Once again, you guys have different rules. Out here, two guys would do that chore.
The meter crew would have shown up, called for a line crew, had them shut it off, and they would tag it and leave. The meter crew would have changed the ct's, and radio in when done and leave. The line crew would arrive and check it, energize it, and leave. The charge would be ZERO.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> You're an idiot. :laughing:


I have always found in life that name calling begins when you run out of logical arguements.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> You are stuck in the everyone gets a trophy mentality, feeling good and doing what is right for you has NOTHING to do with being ethical.


Exactly if you want that trophy you gotta leave behind people that will hold you back.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Ahh ... the utility sends them because of the contractual requirements of the unions.


::sigh::

So three union electricians in a row tell you that slackers get laid off and you retort with an imaginary story about guys sitting in trucks and the contractual requirements of the unions.

You are just a silly person.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> ::sigh::
> 
> So three union electricians in a row tell you that slackers get laid off and you retort with an imaginary story about guys sitting in trucks and the contractual requirements of the unions.


I tend to believe Brian. I just think it's that utilities choice to take advantage of their clients. If they took ownership of the CT's, it would be a whole different scenario.
As for the lineman's agreement in that jurisdiction, I claim ignorance. I just don't know.


----------



## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Bob, you seem to me too intelligent a man to make a blanket judgement about an entire group,based solely on your personal observations.That would be wrong of me to do,in the same way it is wrong of you or anyone else to do it.

Most union guys realize that there are very many capable hard-working non-union Sparkys.We realize it because many of us work daily with those who jumped ship, and understandably so, when the opportunity presented itself.

I think you attract more flies with honey than vinegar,and won't participate in denigrating those whom we hope to recruit. It is, however,reciprocal.We are bashed as frequently as we bash on this site, and frankly by you as often as not.

I think arguing, denigrating, is counterproductive.The only time it is justified is with regard to B4T and Harry.Well,Cletoris also,I suppose.We can agree, I think, that presenting a united front against the " Class Nerds", is in all our interests!

Enjoy Sunday, your families, and football.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> ::sigh::
> 
> So three union electricians in a row tell you that slackers get laid off and you retort with an imaginary story about guys sitting in trucks and the contractual requirements of the unions.
> 
> You are just a silly person.



Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Imaginary story? Nope, it is in fact a very real and common occurrence in this area. 

Try again.:no:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> *You guys have different rules. Out here, the utility would have changed the CT's themselves at no charge*. CT's are utility owned and serviced. It is also their discretion as to CT sizing.
> Once agin, the guys did not just show up. They were told to. Your inference that the men are lazy is irrelevant.


Depends some switchboards have CT's for metering, operation of OCP and monitoring.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

It depends on the client and the jurisdiction. Here in NYC there are times when both stand true. Con Edison owns some CT installations, and other client based times. 

What do you want US as union members who obviously care, are ethical, and are basically NOT the pieces of sh*t that you have dealt with in the past? What do you want US to do? You have heard from 3 different people from 3 different locations who haven't been bashing you, haven't been anything but respectful to you, and yet...you refuse to believe anything that we tell you pertaining to OUR experience. You have it in your head that ONLY your bad experience with the IBEW and apparently unions in general is what stands. Well then this isn't a discussion is it, it's a sounding bitch board for you to rant on.

You throw a scenario at us, we respond.You then call another member here an idiot because he makes a perfectly logical statement that you don't like. Look if MA is that bad a state, and it's not..I know people who teach for the IBEW in Boston and let me tell you, they're not all assholes as you make them out to be. This brings up whether YOU are the asshole who deserves the treatment you complain about. How long are you going to bash, bash, bash before someone brings it to YOUR face that maybe the problem isn't all these other people? 

Why is it that everyone else is wrong gentlemen? Have you EVER considered that your ACTIONS warrant a REACTION? If you are so vehemently ANTI union...note I'm not saying NON UNION...I'm saying anti union for a reason....If you are so anti union...why bother dealing with any of us?

I can tell you this, if you worked for me, I'd give you a fair shake. I judge by the persons skill not the their card. I determine how to deal with each person based on their individual personality and willingness to work, produce, and get the project done. So do EE, iBuzz, BB and others here. Yet, you speak as if it was US who got in your face, us who called you this or that, US who caused the downfall of America! Enough already. 

I was engaged last night with BBQ concerning posts we were going back and forth on. I tried presenting my opinion respectfully and honestly. As far as I know it ended well enough. There was no name calling, there were items that I had to "clear up". But that was it. 

Bottom line, again, we have a organization we believe in, and can justify. You have a different opinion that you can justify. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. We have been willing to talk about issues and explain our reasoning for what we do and present the "other side of the story". However, it's painfully obvious that to some members here, there IS no other side of the story. There is their way or the highway. 

Angry is no way to live your life. But it's your life, and your choice to remain that way.

Just my $.02...

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
> 
> Imaginary story? Nope, it is in fact a very real and common occurrence in this area.
> 
> Try again.:no:


Do you ever tire of being a pedantic naysayer with nothing to contribute but a hearty dose of No U?

Try again.:no:


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> *But the job where we had 20 men 9 trucks two worked*



Is your nose growing?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> I think arguing, denigrating, is counterproductive.The only time it is justified is with regard to B4T and Harry.Well,Cletoris also,I suppose.That's something we'll all agree upon.
> 
> Enjoy Sunday, your families, and football.


Why not go back to your Troll hole and practice what you do best.....


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> ::sigh::
> 
> So three union electricians in a row tell you that slackers get laid off


Yes, I am sure at some point, some slackers are laid off.



> and you retort with an imaginary story about guys sitting in trucks and the contractual requirements of the unions.


Whatever dude, I could not care less if you believe me or not. :laughing:

Out of your 400 posts or so I see that 95%+ of them are being a union mouth piece. I did not see any where you answers electrical question.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/search.php?searchid=2458172&pp=25

That being the case I really have no interest at all in what you do or do not believe. 







> You are just a silly person.


Wow, that hurt. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Once again, you guys have different rules.


And I have no issue at all believing that, things change greatly from area to area.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Is your nose growing?


And you were there? I think you will find TRUTHS about linemen either slacking or being so specialized that large crews are required to do small jobs.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Out of your 400 posts or so I see that 95%+ of them are being a union mouth piece. I did not see any where you answers electrical question.


I can see your point. I'm sure all of your 17K posts are right on target, focused on the topic at hand and full of electrical knowledge.

How about we both stick to the topics at hand and not let these discussions wander away from the original post.

How about you put something in a thread that is positive for a change. The OP asked about union or non union. You had/have an opportunity to speak from your perspective about his upcoming life choice and you blow it by once again tearing down union labor.

Everyone else up to your post was relatively on topic and positive. It was a helpful discussion for the OP to read. Then you came along and took a crap on it.

Good job. :thumbsup:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I
> *How about you put something in a thread that is positive for a chang*e. The OP asked about union or non union. You had/have an opportunity to speak from your perspective about his upcoming life choice and you blow it by once again tearing down union labor.
> 
> 
> ...


If he can get in and there is work by all means go with the IBEW.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I can see your point. I'm sure all of your 17K posts are right on target, focused on the topic at hand and full of electrical knowledge.


Nice try but a fail, :laughing: I do have plenty of off topic posts, but I am not just a mouth peice for some group. 


> How about you put something in a thread that is positive for a change. The OP asked about union or non union. You had/have an opportunity to speak from your perspective about his upcoming life choice and you blow it by once again tearing down union labor.


Boo hoo.:laughing: I have had to put up with many people putting down merit shops, life is harsh get used to it. 




> Everyone else up to your post was relatively on topic and positive. It was a helpful discussion for the OP to read. Then you came along and took a crap on it.


Many people have come to this forum and have asked if they should go union or not. I challenge you to find just one of them where I have said no they should not.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> Depends some switchboards have CT's for metering, operation of OCP and monitoring.


Anything south of the main here would be owner installed and maintained. The utility would not be involved, nor would they care. I am talking strictly utility metering ahead of the main.
If your talking the main C/B components, they would lock it off, and give you a number to call when you needed heat again. Again, it would just be N/C, and a cost of doing busisness.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> Anything south of the main here would be owner installed and maintained. The utility would not be involved, nor would they care. I am talking strictly utility metering ahead of the main.
> If your talking the main C/B components, they would lock it off, and give you a number to call when you needed heat again. Again, it would just be N/C, and a cost of doing busisness.


We pay extra to have a utility crew on stay on site, we have utility outages 1-3 times a week. In my end of the business, I cannot not have some drunk hitting a pole and the utility duty crew going off on an emergency call and have my men sitting on their tushies eating up money and wasting their time. 

My employees average 8-20 hours OT a week the last thing they want is to be sitting waiting for the utility to return and I do not want to have them staying up for nothing losing me money.

Additionally some GFPE CT's/ Sensors are often on the line side or in the same cubicle with the main switch/CB line side and anyway you cut that, it is unsafe PPE or not.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

EE,

One thing that hurts your credibility is the fact you refuse to admit there are short comings with the union, in ANY organization there are issues, you refuse to admit there are problems, that union men cause some of these problems and you refuse to see a need for change as membership declines.


Maybe if you were open minded enough to have a positive conversation regarding the positives, negatives and what needs to be changed there might be a different attitude here.

Or if you feel the union is 100% perfect as it presently exist let us know, because as you operate or at least how you post the union will not improve and not grow.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> Anything south of the main here would be owner installed and maintained. The utility would not be involved, nor would they care. I am talking strictly utility metering ahead of the main.
> If your talking the main C/B components, they would lock it off, and give you a number to call when you needed heat again. Again, it would just be N/C, and a cost of doing busisness.



As is often the case in this area the utility owned and controlled CTs are located inside the customers building, inside the customer owned and maintained gear.

In my case the customer needed the CTs moved out into the utility's pad mount outside. My part of it was to remove the existing CTs from the customers gear and replace them with solid copper bus. I turned the CTs over to the power company meter people on site while they installed CTs on the secondaries of the pad mount. 

It was also my responsibility to run a new conduit from the pad mount to the new meter socket location.

So really the power company had very little to do.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> We pay extra to have a utility crew on stay on site, we have utility outages 1-3 times a week. In my end of the business, I cannot not have some drunk hitting a pole and the utility duty crew going off on an emergency call and have my men sitting on their tushies eating up money and wasting their time.
> 
> My employees average 8-20 hours OT a week the last thing they want is to be sitting waiting for the utility to return and I do not want to have them staying up for nothing losing me money.
> 
> Additionally some GFPE CT's/ Sensors are often on the line side or in the same cubicle with the main switch/CB line side and anyway you cut that, it is unsafe PPE or not.


No doubt you are doing it the most cost effective manner. No doubt you are also passing these costs along. Maybe we just have a better system. Maybe you do. Only thing for sure is the MOP is different.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> As is often the case in this area the utility owned and controlled CTs are located inside the customers building, inside the customer owned and maintained gear.
> 
> In my case the customer needed the CTs moved out into the utility's pad mount outside. My part of it was to remove the existing CTs from the customers gear and replace them with solid copper bus. I turned the CTs over to the power company meter people on site while they installed CTs on the secondaries of the pad mount.
> 
> ...


Here you would not have been allowed to break the seal, or touch their CT's. As for the rest, I was not there, nor have I participated in such a change. 
BTW, comparing inside wiremen to outside wiremen is apples to oranges. 
Police and firemen have different rules, and so do we.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I would also add that OSHA, PUC, utility lawyers, and yes, also unions to a degree have caused all this stuff. To point a finger in only one direction is vain at best. Lawyers and accountants will be the death of free enterprise in this country. When/if the unions die, they will just point their greedy fingers elsewhere.
The developers here blamed the unions for the high cost of housing here. When we stopped doing housing, housing prices stayed the same. Quality went down, and profits went up. Now the developers blame other things. It's what they do.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> EE,
> 
> One thing that hurts your credibility is the fact you refuse to admit there are short comings with the union, in ANY organization there are issues, you refuse to admit there are problems, that union men cause some of these problems and you refuse to see a need for change as membership declines.
> 
> ...


I have tried to have positive conversations on this site. However, this site is full of trolls and anti-union posters. 

All you want to talk about is union shortcomings. If a discussion is ongoing, you interject union shortcomings. Heck, you had to dredge up ancient history, 'just to point out' union shortcomings. 

In my mind you are more anti-union than many of these other posters. 

I certainly don't think anything is perfect, but why discuss it with you - you hate salts, hate stewards, hate your back doored employees being harrassed, hate the politics of unions, hate the rat, imagine workers as lazy and useless ( well except the ones you have specially trained and over pay ), the drum keeps beating. 

Occasionally you will begrudgingly say something about union training, but you are adamant about how your own skills were honed outside of the union. You will admit that 'if there is work, and you can get it, unions might be a better choice'.

So, since your mind is made up, why talk to you at all.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

One of the biggest cons out there has been the Long Island Railroad and their Union...

For the last few years they have uncovered former workers who went out on 100% disability according to doctors who examined them...

A bunch of doctors have pleaded guilty and are cooperating with the investigation... :thumbup:

Just this past week the Inspector General for the LIRR found workers were getting to the jobs late... leaving early... posting time on a job they were not at... and posting for OT because they worked through lunch when there was no need for it....

ALL this stuff had to be going on with the Union's blessing.. of course they run a huge deficit each year and have to cut services and raise commuter ticket prices...


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> One of the biggest cons out there has been the Long Island Railroad and their Union...
> 
> For the last few years they have uncovered former workers who went out on 100% disability according to doctors who examined them...
> 
> ...


Next up, substitute referees in the NFL. What does this have to do with the IBEW?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

B4T said:


> One of the biggest cons out there has been the Long Island Railroad and their Union..


1/10

Nice story - off topic - no reference to Thomas Jefferson ( you could have worked one in ).


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

*One of the biggest cons out there has been the Long Island Railroad and their Union...



B4T said:



ALL this stuff had to be going on with the Union's blessing.. of course they run a huge deficit each year and have to cut services and raise commuter ticket prices...

Click to expand...

*That is an absolute ridiculous statement. Without merit whatsoever. Believe me, any and all "unions" are the FIRST to point out that they will in no way endanger their own existence by any members illegal actions. 

Things like this are what I mean by prejudicial. You have zero idea what the LIRR's policy is concerning this. But I guarantee you that their organization will not EVER willingly sponsor a person to fraudulently go out on workman's compensation. How does that "help" their union? Know this as a basic rule of life sir...no union will do anything that is against it's very precept for existence. No union will have you do something nefarious that does not in some way help itself. Start with that and reevaluate what these losers are doing. 

Are they helping the LIRR union? No.

Would the LIRR union be held liable if ONE...just ONE of these losers points a finger while under questioning or examination towards the union? Yes

Does the LIRR have a LOT to loose if one out of hundreds even CLAIMS they instructed him what to do? Yes...absolutely.

Could the LIRR union loose their AFL-CIO/Teamster Affiliation status if this were to be true? Yes...absolutely.

Going by basic human logic, doesn't it seem foolish for their worker representation to have ANYTHING to do with this? 

Think it through. Believe me, unions, just like private sector employers have a lot of money invested in lawyers protecting their interests. If there was even a possibility of union involvement these individuals would have been kicked out of the union and cast aside already. That has not been done. It's the unions job to protect their members, not to school them in some evil workman's comp plot.

BTW...I have nothing to do with the LIRR union...I don't even know which one it is actually. lol

Steve from NYC


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> All you want to talk about is union shortcomings. If a discussion is ongoing, you interject union shortcomings. Heck, you had to dredge up ancient history, 'just to point out' union shortcomings.


I have posted positive and negative, NO one (unions) are perfect, as an owner I see short comings you may not or may not wan to see



> In my mind you are more anti-union than many of these other posters.


But there are fewer union electricians nationwide, so naturally you will be out numbered.



> certainly don't think anything is perfect, but why discuss it with you - you hate salts, hate stewards, hate your back doored employees being harrassed, hate the politics of unions, hate the rat, imagine workers as lazy and useless ( well except the ones you have specially trained and over pay ), the drum keeps beating.


You just mentioned all the short comings of unions that need to be changed.



> why talk to you at all.


Same thing my ex-wife use to say.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have posted positive and negative, NO one (unions) are perfect, as an owner I see short comings you may not or may not wan to see
> 
> *I've been on both sides of the table and chose to return to the union side of that table. Yes I saw things that the union doesn't teach, want journeymen to be aware of, but no, I don't think there's a magical enlightenment that comes with being a contractor. One of the problems I had was that I remembered where I came from and refused to engage like some of the contractors who didn't go through the program behaved. Contractors who go through the program are definitely different than those who organize in.*
> 
> ...




Steve from NYC


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> And you were there? I think you will find TRUTHS about linemen either slacking or being so specialized that large crews are required to do small jobs.


And now you're a lineman.
Who are you to determine what constatutes a small or large job or what the manpower should or shouldn't be.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> And now you're a lineman.
> Who are you to determine what constatutes a small or large job or what the manpower should or shouldn't be.


42 years of experience as an electrician, involved in low voltage and medium voltage work, constitutes something, additionally I did low voltage pole work for 5 years and it does not take a braniac to determine manpower to work ratios.


Jeeze vic you have a bug in you azz this weekend? First you insinuate I am a liar, then question my abilities to perform basic manpower estimating. You too could do this with some experience.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL man...for a holiday weekend..everyone sure is pissy!

Can't we all just get along gentlemen? LOL

Steve from NYC


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Jeeze vic you have a bug in you azz this weekend?.



I have two friends who work for the local utility. They are brothers. 
The one likes to travel for the OT, makes huge buck$ and takes lavish vacations. The other gets his hair cut on the company dime. His rational is,
_"My hair grows on the clock, why shouldn't it get cut on the clock?"_ 

Sorry BJ. I just really like giving you a hard time. :laughing: :jester:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I have two friends who work for the local utility. They are brothers.
> The one likes to travel for the OT, makes huge buck$ and takes lavish vacations. The other gets his hair cut on the company dime. His rational is,
> _"My hair grows on the clock, why shouldn't it get cut on the clock?"_
> 
> Sorry BJ. I just really like giving you a hard time. :laughing: :jester:


After today the term BJ is not on the table.:blink::no::no:


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

icefalkon said:


> LOL man...for a holiday weekend..everyone sure is pissy!
> 
> Can't we all just get along gentlemen? LOL
> 
> Steve from NYC


We traded Columbus Day for the day after Thanksgiving.


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ah we gave up Election Day for that. 

Steve from NYC


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> After today the term BJ is not on the table.:blink::no::no:


So under the table it is. :thumbsup:


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL f*cked up EE...LOL


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I have tried to have positive conversations on this site. However, this site is full of trolls and anti-union posters.
> 
> All you want to talk about is union shortcomings. If a discussion is ongoing, you interject union shortcomings. Heck, you had to dredge up ancient history, 'just to point out' union shortcomings.
> 
> ...


eejack, are you sure you weren't a farmer in your former life???? :laughing::laughing: You sure can cry with the best of them!! You accuse others of not being able to discuss things in a reasonable manner but your idea of a reasonable manner is to always agree with you. Kind of a boring discussion when you have that!! Deal with it and try seeing things from a non union point of view. You don't have to agree with it but there are some very knowledgeable guys out here that could probably even teach you something if you weren't so touchy! :notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> eejack, are you sure you weren't a farmer in your former life???? :laughing::laughing: You sure can cry with the best of them!! You accuse others of not being able to discuss things in a reasonable manner but your idea of a reasonable manner is to always agree with you. Kind of a boring discussion when you have that!! Deal with it and try seeing things from a non union point of view. You don't have to agree with it but there are some very knowledgeable guys out here that could probably even teach you something if you weren't so touchy! :notworthy::notworthy:


How about saying something positive about non union workers and contractors instead of saying negative things about union workers.

Non stop negative posts about unions is not a discussion. 

The OP asked which way to go - so let us hear something positive from you without bashing the opposing view.


----------



## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

eejack said:


> How about saying something positive about non union workers and contractors instead of saying negative things about union workers.
> 
> Non stop negative posts about unions is not a discussion.
> 
> The OP asked which way to go - so let us hear something positive from you without bashing the opposing view.


Try practicing what you preach

Me thinks LGLS needs to STFU


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Try practicing what you preach
> 
> Me thinks LGLS needs to STFU


I say positive things about being a union electrician all the time. I don't say anything overly negative about working non union either. The only negative things I say are about the trollish posters on this site. 

Like you.:thumbsup:


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL trouble maker


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I say positive things about being a union electrician all the time. I don't say anything overly negative about working non union either. The only negative things I say are about the trollish posters on this site.
> 
> Like you.:thumbsup:


This is so much bs from the guy that is proud to ser up the rat and try to shame people

Grow some thicker skin or just shut up


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> This is so much bs from the guy that is proud to ser up the rat and try to shame people
> 
> Grow some thicker skin or just shut up


2/10 - missed the thug reference - no comment on lazy workers.

OMG! You are so right, how dare I disagree with anyone, I set up a rat.:thumbup:

My skin is plenty thick. Though you must be very thin skinned yourself, coming into the union forum to cry foul at the mean person.

All of these great posts from the non union electricians who, instead of promoting non union tradesmen, go out of their way to try and demean union labor. 

OP asks - union or non union, and the non union folks have answered in force. I'm just not sure you are saying what you think you are saying.
:thumbsup:


----------



## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL I think we should all just grab a beer and some dogs and talk like civil humans about this...


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> LOL I think we should all just grab a beer and some dogs and talk like civil humans about this...


I certainly can do that. I'll even buy the first round.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I certainly can do that. I'll even buy the first round.


 
Sorry I do not eat meat and seldom dring beer.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Sorry I do not eat meat and seldom dring beer.


Are you dringing beer now? :laughing: Well, BJ?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Sorry I do not eat meat and seldom dring beer.


Falafel and a nice Albariño then.

If we can't find common ground on food, we are truly lost.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> Sorry I do not eat meat and seldom dring beer.


No wonder your cranky.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> 2/10 - missed the thug reference - no comment on lazy workers.
> 
> OMG! You are so right, how dare I disagree with anyone, I set up a rat.:thumbup:


You are more than free to state your views, just stop crying when other people express theirs. So simple to understand. :laughing:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> You are more than free to state your views, just stop crying when other people express theirs. So simple to understand. :laughing:


You are essentially right of course. I keep forgetting that what many folks here express as facts are merely fairy tales that they cannot substantiate. I assume that they are being as forthright as myself, which they are incapable of in the first place.

It is just the nature of this forum that traps you into believing there might be real discussion possible, but with the trolls running amok that cannot happen.

In the mean time :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> You are essentially right of course. I keep forgetting that what many folks here express as facts are merely fairy tales that they cannot substantiate. I assume that they are being as forthright as myself, which they are incapable of in the first place.
> 
> It is just the nature of this forum that traps you into believing there might be real discussion possible, but with the trolls running amok that cannot happen.
> 
> In the mean time


 
you've been asked to substaintiate your 'rat' in an open poll, where the union members would vote eejack

so far, you've declined to do so

ergo, it seems it would be you who are refusing to be 'forthright', trapping us into discussion believing the rat is advocated by the majority of union members

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> you've been asked to substaintiate your 'rat' in an open poll, where the union members would vote eejack
> 
> so far, you've declined to do so
> 
> ...


You seem fixated on the whole rat poll thing CS. 

It is a great troll - either I make a poll which I am guaranteed by the nature of this forum to 'lose' or I don't make the poll, again - 'lose'. 

It really doesn't become you.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I am_ fixated _on your insistence the rat works, and is accepted universally eejack

you have the opportunity to back this assertation up here

~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

I don't know if the rat "works" or not. I can say that on here it sure does appear to bruise many an ego.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> I am_ fixated _on your insistence the rat works, and is accepted universally eejack
> 
> you have the opportunity to back this assertation up here
> 
> ~CS~


Impossible under the current conditions. And I didn't say universally accepted, you said ( in a different thread which is why I say you are fixated )



chicken steve said:


> now if you agree with me so far here, it would seem to me that every single union member i've seen post here claims they DO NOT agree with the union tactic of antagonization via the inflatable rat


I disagreed. I even went as far as saying.



> Union guys love the rat. Seriously.


So, you are projecting your universal claims on my assertion. 

Obviously not all anyone does anything, so ignoring the idiocy of absolutes, the idea that most union workers like the rat vs most union members who post on this site dislike the rat is not exclusive.

Since we cannot poll this site properly and there is no proper research on the issue we are left with personal experiences.

My personal experience as a union worker who has been involved in a multitude of pickets - protests - walks and marches is union guys love the rat. Now, folks like brian john who have never done any of these things will have a different experience - and perhaps that is why he does not like the rat.

If you can find an appropriately unbiased mechanism to derive the answer to the question, I would happily participate, but otherwise, call it macaroni.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> but otherwise, call it macaroni.


LOL not spaghetti?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> LOL not spaghetti?


Because spaghetti grows on trees.:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> I don't know if the rat "works" or not. I can say that on here it sure does appear to bruise many an ego.


It has nothing to do with bruised egos, it has to do with hypocrisy.

You have a guy that has chosen to express his view with rats and trying to shame people while at the same time complaining that others bad mouth the union.

It is simple, if you dish it out, expect to take some back.

If you live by the sword expect to die by the sword.

If you live in a glass house don't throw stones etc.

Very simple concept, one that I would expect anyone to understand.:thumbsup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> It has nothing to do with bruised egos, it has to do with hypocrisy.
> 
> You have a guy that has chosen to express his view with rats and trying to shame people while at the same time complaining that others bad mouth the union.
> 
> ...


Dude, that is so yesterday - try to keep up. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I don't know if the rat "works" or not. I can say that on here it sure does appear to bruise many an ego.


Doesn't bother me one bit.. you guys will call non-union guys "rat" until one of your "brothers" needs a job on the side for cash money while still collecting UI...

Nobody deserves to be out of work and watch their home go into foreclosure.. but then you blame the "rats" for taking jobs away from you...

So in your world.. you got to have it both ways... or did I miss the point of all those picket lines and blow up dolls...


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

B4T said:


> ... or did I miss the point of all those picket lines and blow up dolls...


Kind of. We are not supposed to break the law - doing electrical work while on the out of work list is verboten.

Does it happen? Sure. 
Do non-union electricians do side work and not report the income and/or collect unemployment? Sure.

And the blow up dolls are only for break time.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

eejack said:


> Kind of. We are not supposed to break the law - doing electrical work while on the out of work list is verboten.
> 
> Does it happen? Sure.
> Do non-union electricians do side work and not report the income and/or collect unemployment? Sure.
> ...


LOL well said and well handled! 

Look, no one deserves to loose their home when out of work. For the most part, certain extra curricular activities are overlooked. However, when someone brings their "outside work" to the "inside"...that's where the problem is. Less people would get busted if they simply kept their mouths shut. Nobody is watching your house when you're out to see where you're going...but the rules are the rules. The basic tenet for the last 50 or so years has been that when you ARE working...you bang out OT when you can, and be prepared for the bad times. If you're a 26 weeker, then it's up to you to either try your hardest to become basic, or save for the second half of the year.

Understand you do what you have to do to keep your family fed. Just don't bring it to MY table. I've said this before...the IBEW is like a garden..we have plenty of fruit...take what you need. Just be sure to plant some tree's while you're here for the future. If you reap the reward of being a member, try not to sh*t on the organization that's taught you your trade, kept you working, gave you medical insurance, and a pension.

Hmmm that sort of works for union or non union don't you think?

Just my opinion.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

A guy told me today "the union doesn't employ me or write my check the contractor does. I bust my ass for the contractor and the union makes sure the contractor doesn't screw me over."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> I don't know if the rat "works" or not. I can say that on here it sure does appear to bruise many an ego.


I know SOME white collar types laugh at the rat and those that promote it assuming the rat inflaters are hicks, dummies and buffons. I know open shop men hate the rat. I know union men that dislike the use of the rat (not all). So I see where the rat does very little to promote the good work ethics and brotherhood of the union.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

That's fine, it's his right to think and feel that way. I feel that I work for the union and the contractor rents me. I ran big jobs for a small number of contractors over the years and have a good relationship with the owners. If you are good at what you do, you'll be employed. If the rug is pulled out from underneath you, then the contacts you make with contractors you worked for come in handy.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> I know SOME white collar types laugh at the rat and those that promote it assuming the rat inflaters are hicks, dummies and buffons. I know open shop men hate the rat. I know union men that dislike the use of the rat (not all). So I see where the rat does very little to promote the good work ethics and brotherhood of the union.


The older I get, the more I tend toward believing that statement. Your response is the most accurate.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I look at unions like a business, you'd never see a business out screaming at passerby's, carrying signs with negative comments or inflating giant animals that carry a negative conotations.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> I look at unions like a business, you'd never see a business out screaming at passerby's, carrying signs with negative comments or inflating giant animals that carry a negative conotations.


Point taken.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> I know SOME white collar types laugh at the rat and those that promote it assuming the rat inflaters are hicks, dummies and buffons. I know open shop men hate the rat. I know union men that dislike the use of the rat (not all). So I see where the rat does very little to promote the good work ethics and brotherhood of the union.



Most people don't even know what that rat is.

They are too busy working and trying to stay a float do the exorbitant rates for EVERYTHING they must pay.

CRAP, I didn't know what it was for a long time.


Get a life and get to work. Idle hands are the devils workshop.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

leland said:


> Most people don't even know what that rat is.


Point taken. I bet most people do not nor care.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

leland said:


> Most people don't even know what that rat is.
> 
> They are too busy working and trying to stay a float do the exorbitant rates for EVERYTHING they must pay.
> 
> ...


Last summer in DC SEIU was placing the rat in from of office building s and paying homeless to yell at people entering the building, those folks knew.

Any negative hype about any organization is not good, and if it makes the news (and it did here), no one wants bad press.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> Last summer in DC SEIU was placing the rat in from of office building s ..........................


What is an SEIU?


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Ok, but that's not something the IBEW does...pay others to work a rat. I've never heard of any jurisdiction doing that. 

Yes, you're correct Bri...it makes all unions look bad.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

big2bird said:


> What is an SEIU?


Service Employees International Union.


Government workers union,I believe.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Since we are dragging other threads into this thread...the more the merrier.



Itsonlywes said:


> Here's an example of what I mean I worked for a company called Daniel electric we did a 101 unit apartment building here in the bronx they converted it into a shelter Daniels hired like 30 inexperienced guys at $8-10/hr they did not pay overtime just straight time so if you worked 60 hours you got paid straight time for the 60 hours no benefits no Holliday pay or sick days. Plus the site was filthy and there were trip hazards every where because there where no laborers on the site it was a total mess guys where getting hurt and even worst they were getting screwed out of there pay and overtime...


taken from : http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/declining-union-membership-44297/index2/#post826441

Certainly the non union shops did not band together to halt this, the non union workers were incapable of helping themselves, the customer was either just fine with this or completely unaware.

Who deals with things like this?

Is there some mighty merit shop fairy that magically shows up and makes this a safe and fair site? 

No - your evil bogey man shows up - the nasty bad unions about which stories are told to keep all the children from wandering around the woods at night. The unions which by law and lawsuit have been gelded to the point where the only thing we are allowed to do is picket and put up a rat.

The rat does not show up for no reason. 

((yes i know there will now be stories about how the rat showed up to threaten nuns and orphans)).

"Oh, but the rat was out there supporting an organization I don't agree with". 

So what, maybe they were there for a good reason, a reason you don't know, or just disagree with.

Until someone comes up with a better way to protect worker rights, I will use whatever tools I am allowed to use.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Last summer in DC SEIU was placing the rat in from of office building s and paying homeless to yell at people entering the building, those folks knew.
> 
> Any negative hype about any organization is not good, and if it makes the news (and it did here), no one wants bad press.


Interestingly - the only things that come up for googling "DC SEIU rat protest" is how the SEIU local based in DC paid for 6 months of office rent to help out the Occupy DC protest. The rats mentioned were those in the Occupy DC camps.

So - we don't know why the alleged protest took place, but details are lacking. Assuming it happened ( since we have to assume ) can I just assume they were protesting horrible working conditions and unfair labor practices?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> Since we are dragging other threads into this thread...the more the merrier.
> 
> 
> taken from : http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/declining-union-membership-44297/index2/#post826441
> ...


Good points also. :thumbsup:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

brian john said:


> I know SOME white collar types laugh at the rat and those that promote it assuming the rat inflaters are hicks, dummies and buffons.


 
The RAT is embarrassing.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> You are essentially right of course. I keep forgetting that what many folks here express as facts are merely fairy tales that they cannot substantiate. I assume that they are being as forthright as myself, which they are incapable of in the first place.
> 
> It is just the nature of this forum that traps you into believing there might be real discussion possible, but with the trolls running amok that cannot happen.
> 
> In the mean time :thumbsup:


Oh Great His Royal Highness EEJACK MTD (Master Troll Detector) Spreading your wisdom to us lower forms of life. May your tribe increase. He who considers real discussion to be hearing himself speak and us bottom-feeders only saying AMEN !!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

My isn't he a cutie!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> Interestingly - the only things that come up for googling "DC SEIU rat protest" is how the SEIU local based in DC paid for 6 months of office rent to help out the Occupy DC protest. The rats mentioned were those in the Occupy DC camps.
> 
> So - we don't know why the alleged protest took place, but details are lacking. Assuming it happened ( since we have to assume ) can I just assume they were protesting horrible working conditions and unfair labor practices?


http://www.businessinsider.com/inflatable-rats-unions-scabs-2011-11?op=1
Seems to be plenty to go around!!


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Actually...there isn't a whole lot to go around. During summer months a few years back NYC ran out of rats. LOL So they used inflatable gorilla's instead. It was pretty funny actually.

OR...when you see the rat body with a gorilla head because the rat head sprang a leak! LOL

I wish I had some pics of those, they're hysterical looking.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> Oh Great His Royal Highness EEJACK MTD (Master Troll Detector) Spreading your wisdom to us lower forms of life. May your tribe increase. He who considers real discussion to be hearing himself speak and us bottom-feeders only saying AMEN !!!:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


:thumbsup:

Remember anytime something negative about the union is said it is just unsubstantiated fantasy.

Anytime something negative is said about management or non-union workers it is a fact.

That is all you need to know.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've studied hard & worked hard to be were i am

I also have a 2nd yr son who is working hard following in my footsteps

Either of us absolutey refuse to be represented in any way shape or form as a _'rodent' _, by small dying segment of my trade with a sense of entitlement the size of their slow moving posterior(s)

As such, and knowing the history, and knowing the political gestalt , i have today made the decision to never support the IBEW in any way shape or form again

In fact, i will gladly stand with what you lowly loathsome fools dub _'rats'_, and stick the knife in & twist when applicable

good riddance to you all, and do try and die with a shread of dignity

your former supporter, Steve


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> I've studied hard & worked hard to be were i am
> 
> I also have a 2nd yr son who is working hard following in my footsteps
> 
> ...


Dude...really? That's probably the most childish thing I've read on this forum. I personally don't give a f*ck either way. But man, reading what you just wrote...reading that struck a chord.

Why would you, a grown intelligent man...be effected in any way by anything you read here and take it into your personal life. The vehemence of your words really reflect utter hatred for something as absurd over an argument with someone over an inflatable cartoon. This isn't a "way of life" thing, this isn't a petty thing. This is outright dripping hatred...and you brought your 2yr old son into the post as well.

I, along with others have been respectful of your posts, responded professionally and even jokingly at times. But this level of response, over the direction this thread has gone shocks me. I spent time reading your comments on other threads because there are things you've written that had very good points.

Now I know you're going to go on the attack on me now right? Be all pissed and refocus your anger on one of the few union guys here who actually respect what you've written although in disagreement with much of it. Fine. I just want you to know that no man should harbor hatred like you display above...all it does is give power to those you hate. 

With all respect. Thanks for reading.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> As such, and knowing the history, and knowing the political gestalt , i have today made the decision to never support the IBEW in any way shape or form again
> 
> In fact, i will gladly stand with what you lowly loathsome fools dub _'rats'_, and stick the knife in & twist when applicable
> 
> ...


No offense but if one poster on an internet forum can drive you to threatening to kill folks, you really need to learn to step away and relax.

Hopefully you just woke up all cranky and instead of fighting with the family you decided to vent here.

Be well.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I am insulted beyond any hope of reconcilliation with this matter 

in the words of Nikita Khrushchev, WE WILL BURY YOU!

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Remember anytime something negative about the union is said it is just unsubstantiated fantasy.
> 
> ...


No no no no. :no:

Negative about the unions is fairy tale schtuff. Fantasy is Salma Hayek deciding to drop everything else and make me breakfast. Fairy tales are cautionary tales used to explain the unexplainable to simplify difficult concepts.

Negative about management is always mostly truth.

Never say anything negative about the workers ( regardless of their affiliation) as they stoically struggle against the evil management.

Every story has three sides - the way you see it, the way I see it and the way they see it.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> I am insulted beyond any hope of reconcilliation with this matter
> 
> in the words of Nikita Khrushchev, WE WILL BURY YOU!
> 
> ~CS~


Hatred will get you no where in life. Understanding will. Never and always are two words that will bite you in the arse.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

let he without sin throw the first rat

~CS~


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> let he without sin throw the first rat
> 
> ~CS~


LOL can I use that?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

be my guest....~CS~


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> let he without sin throw the first rat
> 
> ~CS~


Well spoken, you are a man of many words.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Personally I prefer the Big Pig holding the money bag. You know, the one with the Top hat. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Personally I prefer the Big Pig holding the money bag. You know, the one with the Top hat. :laughing:



I prefer the peanut in the top hat and cane. Salted or peppered


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

You guys better keep an eye on your little rats. :jester:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Looks like that cat is about to take a huge dump on that house.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Everyday when that guy goes to leave his wife asks " Whats it look like out there ?' and he says" it looks like the cat's ass"


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> let he without sin throw the first rat
> 
> ~CS~


I doubt you can quote me discussing the topic.


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