# knob and tube



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've filled dumpsters with the stuff

Others here have as well

Is there something specific you're needing to know here Lou?

~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

LouisJP said:


> I was asked to take a look at a knob and tube circuit. While investigating the circuit I found that it controls every light on the first floor. i told the home owners that it can get costly as far as labor. My father and I came up with 6,000 in labor. Broken down that comes to 3 guys 40 hours each and $50 an hour. we want to shoot high because we don't know what we are going to get into. My father said don't even bother with taking the job. Just want to get some insight from the Community. thanks





> 3 guys 40 hours each and $50 an hour. we want to shoot high


High?


> My father said don't even bother with taking the job


Listen to Dad, unless you redo your bid by a multiplier of three to four


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

Well I haven't given the bid to them yet. I figured 80 hours between three guys would be good but I guess not. I'm just wondering if any one has done that job and what their results were.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

It's going to be impossible for anybody to give you good advice as far as a time frame goes. Is the house empty, is going to be gutted, on a crawl, basement or cellar? 20,000 sqft or 800? You need at least $8/hr about your regular rate just for aspirin. I don't know your estimated time for the job, but you not going to make much money at $50 an hour, unless your paying your guys under $10.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

I've done quite bit of know and tube removal. Dependso a lot on house size and age of the home. Sometimes you can get real lucky but one of the last ones we did it spider ed thru out the first floor ceiling and went up instead of the wires going to attic and spidering down. You could play safe and play the time and material game .


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

LouisJP said:


> Well I haven't given the bid to them yet. I figured 80 hours between three guys would be good but I guess not. I'm just wondering if any one has done that job and what their results were.


You will go way over on the hours, your rate per hour is way too low for this area, you should be around $125-160 range, also be ready to cut holes as needed for fishing and add a fan box at each light location.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I do these jobs all the time. One thing for certain that this work is an absolute time killer. If anything can go wrong, it will. At least in RI you'll have furring strips to help you snake, but still count on making holes as needed. Is the house occupied and filled with furniture and/or junk? Add even more time to move all that stuff and do a thorough cleaning every day, as this kind of work is filthy dirty.


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

It's a two family house. The first floor is 1000sq feet not going to be gutted. The home owners are aware of making holes to fish wire. Luckily the second apartment is up to par. So if I go with the higher wage an hour what am I looking at for total hours?


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

Right now no one is living in it. Not sure when they will be moving in. My dads buddy is doing the same sort of job and he saying it is killing him because of the time. Thinking of just saying forget it.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

LouisJP said:


> Right now no one is living in it. Not sure when they will be moving in. My dads buddy is doing the same sort of job and he saying it is killing him because of the time. Thinking of just saying forget it.


Why forget about the job? Bid it so you will make it worth your while to do the job.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

LouisJP said:


> Right now no one is living in it. Not sure when they will be moving in. My dads buddy is doing the same sort of job and he saying it is killing him because of the time. Thinking of just saying forget it.


If nobody will be living there and the place is empty it can be a major money maker. Try to spend a good amount of time walking through the job, device by device and visualize every problem that could go wrong. In my experience it's much easier in teams of two, with one in the attic and one down below. Otherwise the third guy will be standing around a fair amount of time.


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

Mshow that's a really good idea thanks. I just can't seem to get a rough idea of how many hours it might take to complete.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

LouisJP said:


> So if I go with the higher wage an hour what am I looking at for total hours?


And we're supposed to GUESS how fast you and your crew are? What additions that you're going to provide, what obstacles that you may have already picked out and not mentioned? :laughing:

For now, listen to your old man. Time your self on some stuff like fishing down an insulated finished wall, then try it again on another area that is over 8 feet tall.

You will find obstacles whether you want to or not- fire blocks appear out of nowhere and if you do not have the correct tools, guess what? That chews up time AND P-R-O-F-I-T-S.


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

What are these tools you speak of?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

LouisJP said:


> Right now no one is living in it. Not sure when they will be moving in. My dads buddy is doing the same sort of job and he saying it is killing him because of the time. Thinking of just saying forget it.


There is great money in it because too many guys fear these jobs, but once you have done a few you will learn lot's of tricks and be able to shorten the time it takes to do them, price it high you will still get the job if they really want this work done they will pay..


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

LouisJP said:


> What are these tools you speak of?


Fish sticks, string, fish tape, drill bits, hole saw's, shop vac drop cloths and dust masks, that dust will will be just like smoking 6 packs of Cigarettes per day.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

If you want to get into that area of work a few tools I would recommend are:

Mods K&T kit

1. An oscillating tool (dremel makes a good starter one) for cut in boxes.
2. Spare blades for the oscillating tool. A LOT of them, lathe and plaster is not gentle on them. (TIP: get at least 2 grout removal blades- they will cut through the toughest of the lathe)
3. An LED black light- more to follow.
4. 12' (minimum) of glow rods (glow in the dark fish sticks) Now when you're in a dark area, use the LED black light to QUICKLY find the glow rod.
5. 2-3 LED work lights, if it gets knocked over in an attic, you won't have a panic of a possible fire from an incandescent or halogen work light.
6. Take an old fish tape and cut a few pieces of that are 5 and 10 feet long (for each guy)- when you think that you can't get a line through, sometimes that little length is all you need to hook it through. If you get really well versed in it like me, you only need to drop those 12" baseboards to fish through the rafters and 3/4" strapping they used to build the original house. 
7. A 4-18" hole saw for the NEW octagons that you will be using to install the up to date wiring. 
8. A MINIMUM of 48" flex bit. (Remember you're going to only be pulling up a switch leg, so only get on that is no larger than 7/8".
9. A Milwaukee sub scanner to find those pesky fire blocks hidden in the areas that you are planning to use as a path for your new wireways. Forget about a stud scanner- they have a difficult time penetrating through the lathe sometimes- if not always.
10. a scope camera with a built in led light. (If you can find one with a zoom in feature, it will help you diagnose the areas of trouble.
11. A magnetic tipped tape measure- its only true purpose is to catch the just out of reach fish tape. Lol
12. A Magnespot locating kit for locating switch drops and pot light locations from the attic. (By placing the spotter magnet in the room, you can find the location in the attic and check to see it the rafter is in the way. Or just use Lotus LED lights since they are I.C. rated. 
13. A Magnepull fishing kit is useful at times as well.
14. A shop vac for clean up
15. 3 mil garbage bags- you'll never look back at those cheap ones you take your garbage out with now. 

I'm more than sure some of the other locals here on the site could provide you with some excellent methods and tools as well.

*Just remember* when you think it will only take you a half an hour, tell yourself that it will really take you 2 hours. They are hard to bid, especially the way our guys do it without cutting a lot of holes. We only cut the area behind the removed baseboards. It's a lot of fishing and skill. Most of all luck!


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

The_Modifier said:


> If you want to get into that area of work a few tools I would recommend are: Mods K&T kit 1. An oscillating tool (dremel makes a good starter one) for cut in boxes. 2. Spare blades for the oscillating tool. A LOT of them, lathe and plaster is not gentle on them. (TIP: get at least 2 grout removal blades- they will cut through the toughest of the lathe) 3. An LED black light- more to follow. 4. 12' (minimum) of glow rods (glow in the dark fish sticks) Now when you're in a dark area, use the LED black light to QUICKLY find the glow rod. 5. 2-3 LED work lights, if it gets knocked over in an attic, you won't have a panic of a possible fire from an incandescent or halogen work light. 6. Take an old fish tape and cut a few pieces of that are 5 and 10 feet long (for each guy)- when you think that you can't get a line through, sometimes that little length is all you need to hook it through. If you get really well versed in it like me, you only need to drop those 12" baseboards to fish through the rafters and 3/4" strapping they used to build the original house. 7. A 4-18" hole saw for the NEW octagons that you will be using to install the up to date wiring. 8. A MINIMUM of 48" flex bit. (Remember you're going to only be pulling up a switch leg, so only get on that is no larger than 7/8". 9. A Milwaukee sub scanner to find those pesky fire blocks hidden in the areas that you are planning to use as a path for your new wireways. Forget about a stud scanner- they have a difficult time penetrating through the lathe sometimes- if not always. 10. a scope camera with a built in led light. (If you can find one with a zoom in feature, it will help you diagnose the areas of trouble. 11. A magnetic tipped tape measure- its only true purpose is to catch the just out of reach fish tape. Lol 12. A Magnespot locating kit for locating switch drops and pot light locations from the attic. (By placing the spotter magnet in the room, you can find the location in the attic and check to see it the rafter is in the way. Or just use Lotus LED lights since they are I.C. rated.  13. A Magnepull fishing kit is useful at times as well. 14. A shop vac for clean up 15. 3 mil garbage bags- you'll never look back at those cheap ones you take your garbage out with now.  I'm more than sure some of the other locals here on the site could provide you with some excellent methods and tools as well. Just remember when you think it will only take you a half an hour, tell yourself that it will really take you 2 hours. They are hard to bid, especially the way our guys do it without cutting a lot of holes. We only cut the area behind the removed baseboards. It's a lot of fishing and skill. Most of all luck!



Thanks you I'll look into the tools I'm not familiar with.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

They're pretty universal too. I've used them in other areas of the trade as well. :laughing:

Good luck. I'm not trying to deter you, only to for warn you of the obstacles that you will face. Time is the hardest thing to figure as each house has it's little gems for problems.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The_Modifier said:


> If you want to get into that area of work a few tools I would recommend are:
> 
> Mods K&T kit
> 
> ...


I would add to that very excellent list a few items - knee pads and a full respirator. A dust mask just won't cut it for plaster dust and attic and basement dust.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I would add to that very excellent list a few items ---- knee pads and a *full respirator.* A dust mask just won't cut it for plaster dust and attic and basement dust.


Very important, I wish I had done that a lot sooner..


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Very important, I wish I had done that a lot sooner..


Very true folks, Harry now sounds like ET. :laughing:


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

A wet noodle fish kit is quite handy too. Actually prefer it to a magna pull
10ft length of steel chain for fishing down the walls ( small links btw)


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

The magna fish is good but is tough with lathe. Something I bough awhile back was the javalin. Excellent for drilling 10 to 15 ft awa going down thru a interior wall. I would make a 1st so hole for a sight and another would be my hole saw or spade down thru. I've fished a two story house from one spot in the attic . Somewhat scary when drilling that far away but take your time and keep checking it besides even if it does pike out oh well little mud and compound . They know there's a possibility of this anyway.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

wcord said:


> A wet noodle fish kit is quite handy too. Actually prefer it to a magna pull
> 10ft length of steel chain for fishing down the walls ( small links btw)


I personally like the chain that is on sink stoppers. I should look into picking up a roll. 

I like the added advantage of your way with stronger chain. That you can tie onto it and pull in your line at the same time if there is a bit of resistance.:thumbsup:


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> High?
> 
> Listen to Dad, unless you redo your bid by a multiplier of three to four


 How many tool and fishing items, do you now posses?
All the equipment, the other posters recommend having is going to be a sizable outlay. I looked at some of these items, at a supply firm for alarm installers. These items are very pricey. Even the blades for the multi-tool are expensive. :whistling2:


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

Retired sparky,
Yes they do.cost money. If you do this kind of work regularly they will pay for themselves just like anything . Unfortunatly the bits for the multi tool are expensive. I learned something by someone mentioning to use the grout bit first that's genius . I haveven 2 types of multi tools one is a 20 volt cordless Dewalt and the other a corded Rockwell. But as for the other tools they will help you and your employees work faster not harder to get jobs done quicker .


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

jsmart84 said:


> Retired sparky,
> Yes they do.cost money. If you do this kind of work regularly they will pay for themselves just like anything . Unfortunatly the bits for the multi tool are expensive. I learned something by someone mentioning to use the grout bit first that's genius . I haveven 2 types of multi tools one is a 20 volt cordless Dewalt and the other a corded Rockwell. But as for the other tools they will help you and your employees work faster not harder to get jobs done quicker .


 I agree with you, whole heartedly, but the OP doesn't seem to have any exposure to this scope of work, let alone bidding it.
Once you get the experience of this type of work, it would be wise to advertise that your concern specializes in K&T conversion work.
It's not too far in the future, that insurance companies will not cover the property at any price.


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

retiredsparktech said:


> I agree with you, whole heartedly, but the OP doesn't seem to have any exposure to this scope of work, let alone bidding it. Once you get the experience of this type of work, it would be wise to advertise that your concern specializes in K&T conversion work. It's not too far in the future, that insurance companies will not cover the property at any price.


 What is k and t conversion work mean ? You are correct I've never done a job like this.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

K and T = Knob and Tube. It does take awhile to get a grasp of but ballon framing is some cake work with the right tools. The multi tool is a savior working with delicate lathe. I used tgo use a saw zall to cut open boxes and if that thing jammed up just a little bam wall starts to crumble. The other thing i found in a house once was diagonal bracing on the exterior from corner to corner. Was not anticipating that at all. I havent seen many like that so for the most exterior walls are a good bet or the chimney is another.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

retiredsparktech said:


> How many tool and fishing items, do you now posses?
> All the equipment, the other posters recommend having is going to be a sizable outlay. I looked at some of these items, at a supply firm for alarm installers. These items are very pricey. Even the blades for the multi-tool are expensive. :whistling2:


I have them all and then some. I'm a tool junkie, but I have a go to set for fishing. LSD fish sticks and products are far and away the best, but there are some alternatives:

*LSD fish sticks are $100+, go to Harbor Freight and buy their's. $20 will get you a boat load and you won't mind if you break all of them. 

*brass sash chain, the extra weight helps fall down holes and the design of the chain links allows you to use some serious pulling tension. It not magnetic like the LSD version, so you will need a 12 gauge solid wire with a hook to catch it. The LSD version is super light duty and breaks if you look at it. 

* various lengths of steel fish tapes, 12', 9' ,4' ,12" buy a reel and cut what you need. Buy the best highest gauge you can afford, a flimsy tape is worthless

As for cutting holes, I don't use a multi tool. If you score the laster with your knife, then take a long skinny screw driver and use it like a chisel little by little. Once your through the plaster grab your jab saw. Make sure it's one that only cuts as you plunge forward, if you pull and grab some plaster on a pull stroke, you're toast. Now grab a flash light a put it into the hole, run up to the attic, drill your hole, and with your sticks you should be able to hit the hole with little problem. 
If your going into an existing receptacle use the old knob and tube wiring as a pull wire if possible. You can use the same technique as above, and use your ficpsh sticks to hit the 1/2 romex hole too. If all else fails pull the box out, fish, and reinstall a new one. 
Buy all Midway cover plates, forget about the standard sizes, you're going to make a mistake or two.
Generally knob and tube houses are built with ballon framing, so insulation shouldn't be a problem. But outside walls on the gable end, you probably won't be able to drill down from the attic above. You need to notch. 

I could go on and on, but I'm already rambling. Don't hesitate to ask.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

So far that I have been reading here, not one mention of testing for lead paint prior to starting, then you got notifications rules, certification rules, 6 square foot per room max disturbance before all the containment operations must be followed, and the six foot includes fixtures removed so you get to figure that out as a 3d calculation to fit back into the 6 foot ruling, making it moot. 

My belief is rewiring is dead , killed by phony science and government intrusion into the marketplace based on exaggeration of proven problem in run down ghetto's where paint chips replaced the potato chips for toddlers when mommy was off hooking. 

In other words, to stay legal you better add at least $1600-$2000 a room or become an outlaw.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

macmike,
I am EPA certified RRP renvoator, technician, firm what have you for lead . Was required to get it to do foreclosure property work by a GC. It isnt expensive but for cutting out a handful of box holes isnt going to add up to your 6 ft sq. Some housing markets are less being in the 3 sq feet range. 

This adds a whole new realm of tools:
HEPA vac,
Special masks
tyvek suits
3 mil plastic to create doorways 
tape
3 mil trash bags
lead test kits. 

Not many around here are RRP certified.but for the 200 class and the 300 bucks to the EPA to become a certified firm its not that bad and most likely worth it unless you want a 37,000 fine per a violation.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jsmart84 said:


> macmike,
> I am EPA certified RRP renvoator, technician, firm what have you for lead . Was required to get it to do foreclosure property work by a GC. It isnt expensive but for cutting out a handful of box holes isnt going to add up to your 6 ft sq. Some housing markets are less being in the 3 sq feet range.
> 
> This adds a whole new realm of tools:
> ...


You should take some time to re-read some of the current rulings. Removal of in place fixtures counts towards the 6 square foot disturbance. The measurement according to what I have read before is not the footprint of the removed fixture, rather it is the volume of the fixture removed. A ceiling fan gets roughly 5 square foot by itself when removed and replaced......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

And yes it doesn't make sense. It is not supposed to...


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

I would have to do some reading. My RRP book doesn't have that but I know HUD has a much different amounts and rules to go with . I haven't seen anything like device replacement or fixture replacement.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Lsd sticks are the only ones worth buying. Very bad advise to buy cheap ones.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> > My belief is rewiring is dead , killed by phony science and government intrusion into the marketplace based on exaggeration of proven problem in run down ghetto's where paint chips replaced the potato chips for toddlers when mommy was off hooking.
> 
> 
> :lol: methinks you got it backwards Mac, it's the gub'mit doing the hooking....
> ...


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

The_Modifier said:


> Very true folks, Harry now sounds like ET. :laughing:


Fix this, it's screwing with the page


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## Nigmas (Aug 29, 2014)

If its plaster, what we do depending on the job and time frame is give them two prices, one with fishing and notching knowing your going to deal with patches and possible sags and getting down outside walls where the roof comes down, then give them a second price where you have a drywall guy come in and skim all the walls after your done cutting channels and holes. If you have a crew of a couple guys you spend less then half the time, less wire and even with the drywall its still cheaper and faster. As far as how long it will take, thats what trial and error is and no two contractors do the same job the same way and the same cost.


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## Nigmas (Aug 29, 2014)

LouisJP said:


> Well I haven't given the bid to them yet. I figured 80 hours between three guys would be good but I guess not. I'm just wondering if any one has done that job and what their results were.


 How many rooms? Attic space? Kitchen? Bathrooms? Lights? Are outlets currently on walls or cut in baseboards? Sounds like $6k just for labor you are making a couple thousand for a few days work.... whats a good consultation fee?


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## LouisJP (Nov 20, 2013)

Nigmas said:


> How many rooms? Attic space? Kitchen? Bathrooms? Lights? Are outlets currently on walls or cut in baseboards? Sounds like $6k just for labor you are making a couple thousand for a few days work.... whats a good consultation fee?


 there's 8 lights 5 plugs have to add two gfci on counter top in kitchen as well as give the bath room it's own feed.


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## Nigmas (Aug 29, 2014)

Sounds like two qualified guys shouldnt take more then 3 days.... anyway ya slice it sounds like easy money....


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## Zekelec (Jan 12, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> You should take some time to re-read some of the current rulings. Removal of in place fixtures counts towards the 6 square foot disturbance. The measurement according to what I have read before is not the footprint of the removed fixture, rather it is the volume of the fixture removed. A ceiling fan gets roughly 5 square foot by itself when removed and replaced......


Not many people have read the original EPA document that is 100 pages long. I have. Square footage is in a way, as you say, volume. So if you cut an old double hung window stop all around, you have cut a thin line several feet long. The way the RRP looks at it is that you need to figure the overall size of the window, e.g., a 3 x 4 window is 12 sq ft.

However, if you let in a single gang box, it's inches. Same with the canopy on the light fixture. When the gov't does something, they never see how it's done by the workers, they just imagine. Removing the sash of an old window and placing it in a bag is way better than sanding it. They should look at only what is actually disturbed. Electricians have it easy until they start cutting into walls.

Buy those fishing tools!


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## Morales95 (Jan 15, 2015)

Charge for the rewiring of whole house and a panel upgrade if he needs it


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