# Is LED replacement for PSMH cost effective?



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Just curious if prices sky rocked for LED flood lights. I have a customer who wants to replace a 400 PSMH with an LED flood light. I know what the chart says but they are not realistic. One chart says I can use a 100 watt LED to replace a 400 watt MH but experience tells me something else. I would use between a 150 and 200 watt LED but the prices I am getting are not an economically sound decision. Almost $900.00 plus tax per light and then my labor. I will leave it to the customer if I should go for a cheap piece of crap but I prefer to use a name brand fixture with a 5 or 10 year warranty. I see going green cost a lot of green.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

he might do better just to replace bulb and ballast kit
however
there are better and reasonably priced LED fixtures
my SH carries "Topaz" brand i think
IIRC they arent ridiculously priced either
they are intended for hi bay or lo bay replacements

some of my customers have gotten stuff from 1000bulbs.com ,, they seem to be happy

i agree on the replacement specs
i always want the LED's to look a lot brighter than the old lights
i have learned to only trust lumens for my decisions, plus you have to know a bit about how far they are intended to reach for usable light and what the intended use is
do they want to see a shadow at 40 yards? or do they want to walk over there and read a book? (extreme, yes, but you get the idea)

the other side of that coin is that at 5000k color temp ,, fewer lumens gives more useable light than other colors with more lumens
i only use 5000k color temp, the rest of it looks yellow to me

the best comparison is side by side at night,
yeah, i know, not always possible
but if you ever get the chance, look at them carefully, regardless of size and think about the different factors involved,
that should help your future judgement on expected results


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

For the few that do not get out much, what is a PSMH?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

SWDweller said:


> For the few that do not get out much, what is a PSMH?


Something something metal halide is my guess. 

Edit: google says pulse start metal halide.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Pulse start metal halide. They require an ignitor.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

You need to find better suppliers or know what to ask for. From my local supply house I can buy a 25000 Lumen Cooper Night Falcon for $1100, a RAB 18000 lumen flood for $90, and a Sylvania 19600 Lumen flood for $159. You don't have to pay big bucks for name brand fixtures.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Forge Boyz said:


> You need to find better suppliers or know what to ask for. From my local supply house I can buy a 25000 Lumen Cooper Night Falcon for $1100, a RAB 18000 lumen flood for $90, and a Sylvania 19600 Lumen flood for $159. You don't have to pay big bucks for name brand fixtures.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I was looking at the RAB FFLED 200 WATT that was around $800.00 plus tax. What I have noticed there are many variations in outdoor flood lights and of course I always pick the best. Higher lumens /WATT ratio and 10 year full replacement warranty. I must have looked at 12 different variations until another more experienced counter sales person said to look at the ones they stock in the back. RAB X34. 141 lumens/WATT. 21,000 lumens and the best part $270.00. It's a go.
The old days you had a choice of HPS and MH. Thats it.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> he might do better just to replace bulb and ballast kit
> however
> there are better and reasonably priced LED fixtures
> my SH carries "Topaz" brand i think
> ...


I started using the 5000K because of that reason. There have been articles about the 5000K having too much blue light which is no good for the eyes but this is outside and people are not generally hanging around.


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Just bought today topaz 300 watt led lights 39,000 lumens for $300 a piece.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

jw0445 said:


> Just bought today topaz 300 watt led lights 39,000 lumens for $300 a piece.


Do you have a model number because I was looking at a Topaz one?


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Do you have a model number because I was looking at a Topaz one?


FFL30050KTR87


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

jw0445 said:


> FFL30050KTR87


Thank you.


----------



## rjniles (Aug 1, 2011)

You can use a fixture with less lumens than the MH you want to replace. A MH lamp projects the lumens in all directions where the LED fixture projects the lumens in the direction you wish to light. My statement does not apply to retrofit "corn cob" lamps lamps.


----------



## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

I would focus on them having the right amount of light for the intended purpose, not basing it on what was there before.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

rjniles said:


> You can use a fixture with less lumens than the MH you want to replace. A MH lamp projects the lumens in all directions where the LED fixture projects the lumens in the direction you wish to light. My statement does not apply to retrofit "corn cob" lamps lamps.


I need to cover a wide area. It is for security and to keep the homeless and drug users at bay. The LED lights do not have the light broadcast like a MH .


----------



## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> I need to cover a wide area. It is for security and to keep the homeless and drug users at bay. The LED lights do not have the light broadcast like a MH .


That is an incredibly case-by-case basis. There are LED fixtures that can provide far better light distribution than a typical reflector MH fixture, and there are some that have terrible distribution. LED arrays provide the ability for the manufacturer to tweak the selection and arrangement of the individual LEDs to provide the light exactly where it is supposed to go, with NO light going where it doens't need to go - but it depends on finding the right fixture for your application.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CraziFuzzy said:


> That is an incredibly case-by-case basis. There are LED fixtures that can provide far better light distribution than a typical reflector MH fixture, and there are some that have terrible distribution. LED arrays provide the ability for the manufacturer to tweak the selection and arrangement of the individual LEDs to provide the light exactly where it is supposed to go, with NO light going where it doens't need to go - but it depends on finding the right fixture for your application.


I know there are many different lay outs and LED patterns. The problem I was having is finding one that is reasonably priced. There are no more lighting or counter people that know the products and the sales reps want to sell the expensive versions. I pick a fixture then I have to get a price and they come back $850.00 and up. That means i have to at least get $1,000.00 to change a light. I might as well fix the existing lights. I went through this process about 5 times until an older counter sales person said to look at their stocking LED flood light. A RAB X34----- Someone suggested Topaz which has a 300 watt flood that is reasonable but that was right after I purchased the economy RAB flood.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

jw0445 said:


> FFL30050KTR87


I have to keep this in mind for next time.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

The trick is that you need to realize that MH is cheap. It’s a mature market. With LED it can be more expensive but you will outright need less lumens to do the same thing. Comparing 1000 W MH though efficiency is about the same. It’s different at 400 W. But after 6 months you’ve lost 30% of the MH output so you have to oversize. And since it’s a goofy bluish white light you need about 50% more lumens (CRZi issue). That’s why a good designed system is actually cheaper.

The lighting engineering software is free and open source. But unless you do it all the time not worth it. If you have details go to a supply house that sells Cooper. They have their own design engineers that will do the design for you. You are free to tweak it though and most people do. It just gets you started. If they specify a bunch of fixtures you don’t like substitute your own. But I found that they do a really good job. If you want to impress the customer with price go with Phoenix. The product is top notch and ground breaking and bank breaking,


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

paulengr said:


> The trick is that you need to realize that MH is cheap. It’s a mature market. With LED it can be more expensive but you will outright need less lumens to do the same thing. Comparing 1000 W MH though efficiency is about the same. It’s different at 400 W. But after 6 months you’ve lost 30% of the MH output so you have to oversize. And since it’s a goofy bluish white light you need about 50% more lumens (CRZi issue). That’s why a good designed system is actually cheaper.
> 
> The lighting engineering software is free and open source. But unless you do it all the time not worth it. If you have details go to a supply house that sells Cooper. They have their own design engineers that will do the design for you. You are free to tweak it though and most people do. It just gets you started. If they specify a bunch of fixtures you don’t like substitute your own. But I found that they do a really good job. If you want to impress the customer with price go with Phoenix. The product is top notch and ground breaking and bank breaking,


Every lighting manufacturer has a free lighting design calculator for their fixtures and it comes in very handy when choosing luminaires, I still like the term fixtures.. Even with the lamp degradation MH still lights up the ground better. My light meter says so. Almost every retrofit / replacement job I do I take before and after readings. To maintain the same foot candles I have to upsize the recommended LED wattage. For the 400 watt PSMH I like to use a 200 watt LED which is a 750 watt replacement. LED is brighter when you look up at it but it is faded out on the ground. The first parking lot I converted we used the recommended wattage LED and the customer was not happy. It was darker and they needed bright. He returned them and went from the 105 watt to a 160 watt and he was happy. I do not want to make that mistake again.


----------



## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

If you were going off of "watt equivalent" then that is where you failed. You need a light pattern, and address the lighting desired at the distance you want. MH (and sodiums before them) were designed by the brute force method, and often had far too much light on certain areas just to get adequate light on others, partly because they were reflector based, and partly because they faded rapidly with age. Newer fixtures are far more nuanced in their design requirements.


----------



## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

I'd also argue against your $850 price being "too expensive". What is the fixture's lifecycle cost compared to a comparable MH fixture, including electrical use, bulb replacements, the labor to do those replacements, and potentially lift rentals every time?


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CraziFuzzy said:


> I'd also argue against your $850 price being "too expensive". What is the fixture's lifecycle cost compared to a comparable MH fixture, including electrical use, bulb replacements, the labor to do those replacements, and potentially lift rentals every time?


But after 6 years when the LED fixture burns out you have a $850.00 fixture to replace instead of a $30.00 lamp. They say the fixtures are good for 15 years but it is more like 6 years. I do use and push the LED fixtures, I guess I was addressing the missapplication of many of these LED fixtures. Sometimes you want that brute light for security reasons. If the customer rents and is not reimbursed for the fixture, why would he change out to LED when it is cost effective to replace the MH lamps? I do the math and then I let the customer decide how he wants to spend his money.. Another thing about the LED fixtures is the radio interference the drivers produce. The more expensive fixtures have a lesser degree of interference but they are 3 times the price. For 25 years or more the major manufactures had the same PSMH or HPS fixtures without a design change in appearance. No problems matching existing old fixtures. Today they redesign the LEDs and discontinue the older ones. I have several customers with different heads on the same pole. LEDs serve a purpose like EVs but they are not always the right choice.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> They say the fixtures are good for 15 years but it is more like 6 years


I bet they fall below 80% output in the first year or two then a slow death from 80-70% over the next 12 years. HPS only loses around 10% per year. Not sure about MH.


----------



## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> I need to cover a wide area. It is for security and to keep the homeless and drug users at bay. The LED lights do not have the light broadcast like a MH .


This is my experience as well, broadcast distribution is poor compared to MH floods.

When the utility came through my commercial street and swapped out the fixtures, it lights up inside my whole office across the street from one pole. But the street is now dark as sin, in between poles, it was pretty even illumination with the MH, but not as intense. Better overall even illumination with the MH, even with depreciated lamps.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> I bet they fall below 80% output in the first year or two then a slow death from 80-70% over the next 12 years. HPS only loses around 10% per year. Not sure about MH.


MH loses about 30% in the first six months then roughly levels off losing a little after that.

From doing the math even if it saves electricity even in high rent districts the electrical cost savings is a drop in the bucket, hardly noticeable. Even on large projects it’s a few hundred a year compared to spending thousands. It’s basically spending a dollar to save a nickel. BUT all the savings are in long term maintenance costs. It’s the labor for the lift, personnel, etc.

If you are only getting a few years it’s a cheap fixture. Mostly it’s not LEDs failing. It’s mostly poor solder connections and especially drivers. In some where the drivers are replaceable you can just change that and you have a “new” system again.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CMP said:


> This is my experience as well, broadcast distribution is poor compared to MH floods.
> 
> When the utility came through my commercial street and swapped out the fixtures, it lights up inside my whole office across the street from one pole. But the street is now dark as sin, in between poles, it was pretty even illumination with the MH, but not as intense. Better overall even illumination with the MH, even with depreciated lamps.


I have never seen a metal halide Street light. As far as I know they are all either high or low pressure sodium.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

paulengr said:


> MH loses about 30% in the first six months then roughly levels off losing a little after that.
> 
> From doing the math even if it saves electricity even in high rent districts the electrical cost savings is a drop in the bucket, hardly noticeable. Even on large projects it’s a few hundred a year compared to spending thousands. It’s basically spending a dollar to save a nickel. BUT all the savings are in long term maintenance costs. It’s the labor for the lift, personnel, etc.
> 
> If you are only getting a few years it’s a cheap fixture. Mostly it’s not LEDs failing. It’s mostly poor solder connections and especially drivers. In some where the drivers are replaceable you can just change that and you have a “new” system again.


Power surges on the outside lighting. I noticed more fixtures are including some type of surge protection. Several jobs I did four years back, the instructions suggested install a surge protector. One customer was cheap and did not want to pay for it so as of today I have replaced 2 of the 18 I installed.


----------

