# Hot tub info



## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok guys, I have yet to actually wire up a hot tub and was looking for a few pointers from you experts out there. Surely it has to be gfci protected but other than that is there something different with the grnding/bonding? What is a typical hot tub install?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Ok guys, I have yet to actually wire up a hot tub and was looking for a few pointers from you experts out there. Surely it has to be gfci protected but other than that is there something different with the grnding/bonding? What is a typical hot tub install?


 You are asking a whole lot from us. I will drect you to art. 680 section IV. Pay lots of attention to 680.26


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

GFCI protected. Insulated egc. Equipotential grid.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> GFCI protected. Insulated egc. Equipotential grid.


That about sums it up. The grid is a major PITA if the tub is already set and ready to wire.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> That about sums it up. The grid is a major PITA if the tub is already set and ready to wire.


Could you just drive a ground rod close by and then ring around the tub with #8 and then attach to the metal parts, if any?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Could you just drive a ground rod close by and then ring around the tub with #8 and then attach to the metal parts, if any?


The rod is not necessary. You can follow the contour of the tub between 18" and 2' from the inside wall of the tub. #8 bare copper needs to be 4" to 6" below subgrade.

From here you can bond back to the tubs motor and everything else should be bonded internally by the spa manufacturer.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The rod is not necessary. You can follow the contour of the tub between 18" and 2' from the inside wall of the tub. #8 bare copper needs to be 4" to 6" below subgrade.
> 
> From here you can bond back to the tubs motor and everything else should be bonded internally by the spa manufacturer.


I agree, and I know that you know this; It is not necessary to take a wire from the equipotential grid back to a panel. That is not it's purpose.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

If there is steel in the concrete you can tie wire a piece of rebar to the steel and clamp just a stub of #8 to the rebar.


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

If it's a custom build follow the advise above. If it's a premade drop in place unit it should be bonded from the factory.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

This disconnect is perfect for your job. GFCI protection for motor, GFCI convenience required receptacle on board. I think this one is rated at 50 amp and cost a little over $100.00. Well worth it IMO.


----------



## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

Hey John
What brand is that box?


----------



## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Yeah, this one will be a drop-in type so no grid required right?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I guess all along I have been visualizing a sauna outdoors. If it is indoors what is done about equipotential grid? I"ve not installed one.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Yeah, this one will be a drop-in type so no grid required right?


George is this a hot tub or a hydromassage tub?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Oh George-- where are you?????


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I guess all along I have been visualizing a sauna outdoors. If it is indoors what is done about equipotential grid? I"ve not installed one.


I think you are a little confused. A sauna and a hot tub are pretty much opposite items.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> This disconnect is perfect for your job. GFCI protection for motor, GFCI convenience required receptacle on board. I think this one is rated at 50 amp and cost a little over $100.00. Well worth it IMO.


John, where is the receptacle on that disconnect. It looks like a blank face and a pullout.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I think you are a little confused. A sauna and a hot tub are pretty much opposite items.


You are right. I guess that explains my lack of a tan.:thumbsup:


----------



## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

GEORGE D said:


> Yeah, this one will be a drop-in type so no grid required right?


George,

That is correct.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> George,
> 
> That is correct.


You are responding to an install that we do not yet know what the OP has. If this is truly a hot tub where does the NEC exempt a grid for indoor installs. I agree it is bogus but there are no exceptions that I am aware of.

In NC they basically say if the Hot Tub is in a basement on grade then a grid is needed but not on above grade floors. This is not NEC ruling but a stand that the state inspector has taken on this issue.


----------



## GEORGE D (Apr 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Oh George-- where are you?????


 

Sorry for late response, I am in Charlotte. The hot tub job didnt go through but I would still like to know for next time. This is one of those hot tubs you drop-in or set-on a deck or patio. The correct name for it Im not sure. I'm assuming hot tub right? It has jets inside.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The main difference between a hot tub and a hydromassage is that the hot tub stays filled with water and is usually treated chemically. The hydromassage usually is in a bathroom and is basically a bathtub with jets and gets filled every time you use it.


----------



## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> This disconnect is perfect for your job. GFCI protection for motor, GFCI convenience required receptacle on board. I think this one is rated at 50 amp and cost a little over $100.00. Well worth it IMO.


I wish I could remember the manufacturer, but anyway, I installed a half dozen of that type of GFCI & disconnect and four of them failed within a year. It cost a bundle in call backs. Now I go with GFCI circuit breaker and std. disconnect.


----------



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm looking to install a hot tub for a client, can you down size the ground wire in a hot tub install? I noticed in the manual it's saying to run 4 #6 wires.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sparkee said:


> I'm looking to install a hot tub for a client, can you down size the ground wire in a hot tub install? I noticed in the manual it's saying to run 4 #6 wires.


If the manufacturer's spec call for a #6 then you must do it to comply. It sucks but that;s how it is.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The reason this rule sucks is because article 680.42(C) specifically allows us to use nm canle inside a dwelling unit. Then the manufacturers take that right away from us with this rule about the egc being the same size as the ungrounded conductors.


----------



## Sparkee (Sep 22, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the manufacturer's spec call for a #6 then you must do it to comply. It sucks but that;s how it is.



I think you are right. Thanks!


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Sparkee said:


> I think you are right. Thanks!


This is where I got that info from. Now the question is whether or not the info on the instructions is part of the listing and labeling. I believe it is but would not swear to it.


> 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
> (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


----------



## Electric Al (Mar 13, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is where I got that info from. Now the question is whether or not the info on the instructions is part of the listing and labeling. I believe it is but would not swear to it.


 Right On. Then you are covered.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Something I kick around once in a while and forget about is whether or not a breaker/GFCI disconnect is a sub panel? If so, to me, the manufactures specs stop at the sub panel and I can use any wiring method to the sub. I haven't dug into 680 for a while but self contained/portable hot tubs aren't to bad. Disconnect more than 5' away. GFCI protected. Bond metal around tub. Equipotential bonding.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Something I kick around once in a while and forget about is whether or not a breaker/GFCI disconnect is a sub panel? If so, to me, the manufactures specs stop at the sub panel and I can use any wiring method to the sub. I haven't dug into 680 for a while but self contained/portable hot tubs aren't to bad. Disconnect more than 5' away. GFCI protected. Bond metal around tub. Equipotential bonding.


Well by definition I would say that the wire to the Disconnect is a feeder if there is OCPD in the disconnect but a branch circuit if the breaker is in the panel. Ridiculous --yes but.. 

Why, may I ask does the manufacturers spec stop at the disc if it's a sub panel? Do you have info to back that up or is that an opinion. I do see your point but I am not sure I agree with it. Perhaps if it was an existing sub panel I may agree.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm just floating ideas. If you install a hot tub, say in a large house or something like a YMCA, where the nearest power source is a sub panel, do you now have to worry that the feeder to the sub is aluminum or a non 680 approved wiring method?


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

On a seperate note I'd argue that a self contained spa(hot tub) installed outside on a slab does not qualify as permanently installed(according to the definition in Part 1) so Part II doesn't apply. I'm pretty unsure about this interpretation though.

The Handbook notes for 680.42 indicate that 680.26 applies so.. I think this part of the code needs clarifying. Perhaps a section just for self contained hot tubs.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If Part II does apply which I suspect it does then 680.25 appears to let us use any wiring method with a ground enclosed in the cable assembly to a sub panel that feeds a hot tub. I'm pretty sure you could argue though that a GFCI disconnect that only serves the hot tub is a branch circuit and not a feeder to a panelboard.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I'm just floating ideas. If you install a hot tub, say in a large house or something like a YMCA, where the nearest power source is a sub panel, do you now have to worry that the feeder to the sub is aluminum or a non 680 approved wiring method?


No 680.25 A has an exception for existing feeders. The electrons apparently react differently in a new feeder vs an old feeder.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> On a seperate note I'd argue that a self contained spa(hot tub) installed outside on a slab does not qualify as permanently installed(according to the definition in Part 1) so Part II doesn't apply.


If you read article 680.40 it will verify what you think.



NEC 2008 said:


> 680.40 General.
> Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.





nitro 71 said:


> The Handbook notes for 680.42 indicate that 680.26 applies so.. I think this part of the code needs clarifying. Perhaps a section just for self contained hot tubs.


I agree this is silly. 680.40 states Part I and Part IV shall apply then in 680.42 it states that Part II applies for outdoor installs and 680.43 states Part II shall apply to indoor installs with exceptions.

I guess because there are exception to using Part II it is not mentioned in 680.40. In general you will use most of Part II


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

It's fun digging into this! If this section was straight forward for self contained spas think how many less posts there would be.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> If Part II does apply which I suspect it does then 680.25 appears to let us use any wiring method with a ground enclosed in the cable assembly to a sub panel that feeds a hot tub. I'm pretty sure you could argue though that a GFCI disconnect that only serves the hot tub is a branch circuit and not a feeder to a panelboard.


I disagree art 680.25 requires a insulated ground and does not allow the use of any wiring method. It allows cable assembly for existing feeders, as Scott mention in a reply to your other post.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Had to read that again. I just need to do another hot tub install now that I'm all retrained on them!


----------



## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Right or wrong I've always just ran the oversized EGC from disco to tub. Never been called on it, so I will continue to do so.:thumbup:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The reality is most inspectors, as well as most ec's, don't even read the specs so it is not likely you'd get caught on it. That does not make it legal.


----------



## fiddler (Jun 2, 2010)

Just curious where are you getting the idea you need an equipontential grid on a hot tub?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

fiddler said:


> Just curious where are you getting the idea you need an equipontential grid on a hot tub?


The idea comes from art. 680.42 & 680.43 which states we must use Part I and Part II of article 680. EPB is article 680.26 in Part II


----------

