# Help settle a debate....



## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

Per OSHA policy, is it required to have the power turned off in order to re-lamp a luminaire, let's say, for example, an 6 lamp T8 troffer, and does anyone happen to know of the existence of a formal OSHA interpretation letter that states this? 

In my opinion, yes it is required to have the power off and I have been in on ongoing debate with my employer on this issue. The other electricians at the facility that I work at, out of sheer laziness, don't seem to mind at all to let general employees change the lamps with the power still on.

This topic came up again in a big way when this thread came up:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f12/lightning-ballast-electric-shock-97562/


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

how many people have died changing lamps ? not many.

If you think it's a hazard, and you are a qualified individual, then by all means turn them off. If other qualified individuals think differently, who are you to tell them otherwise ?

the following is an incident that happened in WA:
http://www.lni.wa.gov/safety/research/face/files/lightbulbelectrocution.pdf

I read through most of it, and still didn't find anywhere that said that relamping cannot be done while energized. That poor maintenance guy didn't know what he was doing. It's a call that has to be made by a qualified individual. 

just my 02.

I'm sure that once no bullies are left behind, someone will eventually get around to making it a serious crime to install light bulbs without turning off the switch.


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## minichopper6hp (Apr 19, 2014)

Not a hazard but be careful if you have one end in the socket and touch the other to ground you could ruin the bulb.


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

wildleg said:


> how many people have died changing lamps ? not many.
> 
> If you think it's a hazard, and you are a qualified individual, then by all means turn them off. If other qualified individuals think differently, who are you to tell them otherwise ?
> 
> ...


:blink:

Here is a copy/paste directly from the article that you provided the link to:

*• Proper Lockout-Tagout procedures should be used when work is
done on any system that may contain electrical energy.
• Electrical systems and components must be tested to ensure they
are de-energized before performing work. Turning off a light
switch or circuit breaker may not de-energize an electrical system
or its components. If you can’t test, let it rest. *


I don't know how much more clear that can be. This states that an electrical system must be de-energized before performing work, and that work would include changing the bulbs/lamps, right?


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

minichopper6hp said:


> Not a hazard but be careful if you have one end in the socket and touch the other to ground you could ruin the bulb.


Not a hazard? Think about this for a minute. What would happen if you had one end of the lamp in the socket and were trying to get the other end in the opposing socket and somehow your finger got between the pins of the lamp and the metal frame of the fixture?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eric7379 said:


> Not a hazard? Think about this for a minute. What would happen if you had one end of the lamp in the socket and were trying to get the other end in the opposing socket and somehow your finger got between the pins of the lamp and the metal frame of the fixture?


What would happen if you fell off the ladder and smashed your head?

Maybe we should setup scaffolding with rails and toe-kicks every time we change a lamp, do it for safety 

How about not touching the end of the lamp? Just like you shouldn't fall off the side of the ladder.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We have a customer that makes his employees change T8 lamps.
They hate doing it and almost every time will short one of the pins to the fixture housing while the other pin is in one of the sockets. I don't know why but, it smokes the electronic ballast. We like this. Very. Much


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

eric7379 said:


> Not a hazard? Think about this for a minute. What would happen if you had one end of the lamp in the socket and were trying to get the other end in the opposing socket and somehow your finger got between the pins of the lamp and the metal frame of the fixture?


If I had tiny little willow like fingers that could get in there my whole life would be different.


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## GrayHair (Jan 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What would happen if you fell off the ladder and smashed your head?
> 
> Maybe we should setup scaffolding with rails and toe-kicks every time we change a lamp, do it for safety
> 
> How about not touching the end of the lamp? Just like you shouldn't fall off the side of the ladder.


Hack, don't forget the fall protection harness and ground man (1 or 2?) to keep people from running into your scaffold. 

Regards!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

GrayHair said:


> Hack, don't forget the fall protection harness and ground man (1 or 2?) to keep people from running into your scaffold.
> 
> Regards!


What about a hot work permit? The light may still be hot :whistling2:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it's laziness to not just shut up and replace the lamps. Some people will go to extreme lengths to avoid doing their jobs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

eric7379 said:


> :blink:
> 
> Here is a copy/paste directly from the article that you provided the link to:
> 
> ...


Clearly you have already made up your mind that changing light bulbs is the same thing as "performing work on an electrical system". I don't agree with that, and I am sure a lot of others don't either. If you have your way, the people at your plant are going to require an electrician to plug in their computers and turn light switches on and off too. Changing a HID bulb that exploded is slightly different than changing a T5 or edison lamp.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

This is what we use when we change lamps live! Safety first guys..:thumbup:


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Switched said:


> This is what we use when we change lamps live! Safety first guys..:thumbup:


Nice. Wonder if it comes in nicer colors... maybe orange.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

daveEM said:


> Nice. Wonder if it comes in nicer colors... maybe orange.


nah orange is reserved for prison inmates 
makes a brighter target for the guards to shoot at:thumbsup:


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

wildleg said:


> how many people have died changing lamps ? not many.
> 
> If you think it's a hazard, and you are a qualified individual, then by all means turn them off. If other *qualified individuals* think differently, who are you to tell them otherwise ?
> 
> ...





wildleg said:


> Clearly you have already made up your mind that changing light bulbs is the same thing as "performing work on an electrical system". I don't agree with that, and I am sure a lot of others don't either. If you have your way, the people at your plant are going to require an electrician to plug in their computers and turn light switches on and off too. Changing a HID bulb that exploded is slightly different than changing a T5 or edison lamp.


Part of the argument that I am making is that my employer as well as the other electrician's decisions to let _unqualified employees_ re-lamp fixtures while they are energized. 

Can the average idiot change a light bulb? Yes. However, in todays litigation- happy society, in the event that something did happen while that average idiot was changing a light bulb for their employer, OSHA and the lawyers step in. 

Hence the original question as to whether or not anyone had an OSHA letter of interpretation that states whether or not it is required to have the power turned off in order to re-lamp a fixture.

This isn't about me. I am more than qualified and I know very well what I am doing. But, yes, I do de-energize circuits and or lighting fixtures before I change the bulbs or re-lamp them. Accidents can and do happen, no matter how careful a person may be.

This also isn't about whether or not "my mind is made up". It is about whether or not, in the eyes of OSHA, the circuit must be de-energized in order to re-lamp a fixture.


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> I think it's laziness to not just shut up and replace the lamps. Some people will go to extreme lengths to avoid doing their jobs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, a lot of people do go to extreme lengths to avoid doing their jobs. If you think that I am one of those people, then you are sorely mistaken.

I do what is asked and expected of me, and I do it well. If I am asked to do a job, I do it. I do it correctly and above all else, I do it safely.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

​


Switched said:


> This is what we use when we change lamps live! Safety first guys..:thumbup:


I thought you wear booties inside customers houses but I don't see any in the picture...


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

Sounds like a NFPA 70e issue which is why in line fuses are in all the new florescent light fixtures i install


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## eric7379 (Jan 5, 2010)

markbrady said:


> Sounds like a NFPA 70e issue which is why in line fuses are in all the new florescent light fixtures i install



And this very well may be the case. My concern is just that. Electrical safety_ in __the workplace_.


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

I am going to be in a NFPA 70e class within the next month and will ask the instructor about this. Never gave it much thought to be honest but now I am curious myself. I know that wont be in time to settle your dispute but I will post what I learn


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

markbrady said:


> Sounds like a NFPA 70e issue which is why in line fuses are in all the new florescent light fixtures i install


Just for clarification, are you talking about the disconnecting means that are required by 410.130(G)? If so, all the ones that I have come across are located inside the fixture itself. This requires removing the lamps and cover to access it. These are strictly to keep electricians from changing ballasts while energized. Interesting conversation.


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