# Union integrity



## surfcity (May 27, 2010)

I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I have been union for many, many years. The original premise of the union is to protect worker's rights. I chose the path of unionization as a method of obtaining work that could give me a sustainable way of raising a family and my basic rights would be protected. I still love the union because I have seen it work for me as well as a lot of others. There are faults in the system and you have stated one of the worst...that being letting someone jump the book. You still have to raise your family and if that means working on a non-union job to do it against your inner fiber, that, to me is INTEGRITY. Good luck.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

surfcity said:


> I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


I clicked on this one because those 2 words were next to each other, I saw the same thing when I was union, shady town, shady local. My advice, send board a case fo scotch :whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

surfcity said:


> I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


 
First THANK YOU for your service! Second I am glad the union is not very active here in the electrical field. I do believe they were needed way back when. Employers did take advantage of people and working conditions were horrible in a lot of places. However now I don't believe they are necessary. We have federal and state laws that can handle any complaints an employee has. Or even better make them like our fire and police departments where they look out for your rights but can't get into what you are paid. They also can not strike. The employees rights are protected without bankrupting the city. Our city/county council dosen't need any help with that.( they do a good enough job alone) If I was not self employed and lived in a union state would I go union? I don't know....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

surfcity said:


> I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


Its your local, if someone is allowed to jump the book, you should speak up.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

surfcity said:


> Our dispatch has no integrity.


 
One more reason it should be 'Solicit your own job.'


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> One more reason it should be 'Solicit your own job.'


I used to be totally against that..but now I agree with you.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

surfcity said:


> I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


I'm so sick of all this union bashing. :no: :laughing:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

surfcity said:


> I am a former Marine who works as a union commercial electrician.I have 16 years in the trade,and now re-thinking my profession.I sit on the union books and watch others jump in front of me.Our dispatch has no integrity.


 Bless your soul Brother, calm the heart and try to be patient, work is on the way for 191.Just because you have some that are acting unethical there are those of us who have good union morals and wait our turn. When greed for the dollar bill and or power interfers with human compassion(and this happens in all phases of life no matter union or not) it will expose true intentions of the same ones who swore to be your Brother or Sister. Thank you to all who took the time to respond.If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Human rights abuse runs rampant on jobs across the USA, TODAY so that adage of once had a place is only an opinion.We need each other to thrive on efforts made by both.If one did not exist the other would most likely become a tryant with the power to corrupt the politicians who got in the way.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> Bless your soul Brother, calm the heart and try to be patient, work is on the way for 191.Just because you have some that are acting unethical there are those of us who have good union morals and wait our turn. When greed for the dollar bill and or power interfers with human compassion(and this happens in all phases of life no matter union or not) it will expose true intentions of the same ones who swore to be your Brother or Sister. Thank you to all who took the time to respond.If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Human rights abuse runs rampant on jobs across the USA, TODAY so that adage of once had a place is only an opinion.We need each other to thrive on efforts made by both.If one did not exist the other would most likely become a tryant with the power to corrupt the politicians who got in the way.


.......


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Bless your soul Brother, calm the heart and try to be patient, work is on the way for 191.Just because you have some that are acting unethical there are those of us who have good union morals and wait our turn. When greed for the dollar bill and or power interfers with human compassion(and this happens in all phases of life no matter union or not) it will expose true intentions of the same ones who swore to be your Brother or Sister. Thank you to all who took the time to respond.If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Human rights abuse runs rampant on jobs across the USA, TODAY so that adage of once had a place is only an opinion.We need each other to thrive on efforts made by both.If one did not exist the other would most likely become a tryant with the power to corrupt the politicians who got in the way.


What advice are you giving him. I don't understand.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> What advice are you giving him. I don't understand.


 I have had legal problems within this local in the past and I would say this should warrent me to be on my best behavoir.His local has enough work for all the locals and a few travelers coming soon. If he desires to go through what others have(made sacrifices for others to benefit from) then that is his choice. I offer anyone help if I feel it will help workers as a whole as they procede along with efforts to gain better work conditions and pay.I really do not have that white flag in my arsonal, even when times are tough like now. I feel sure a Marine has the mentality of never say die.Surfcity my offer stands, it is your decision.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Brother Noah said:


> Just because you have some that are acting unethical there are those of us who have good union morals and wait our turn.


I get suspicious when a brother enjoys 'waiting his turn' too much and too often.

Not saying its you Noah, but I know guys who love all that free money every week and the money from sidejobbin in all that free time.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> I am glad the union is not very active here in the electrical field. I do believe they were needed way back when. Employers did take advantage of people and working conditions were horrible in a lot of places. However now I don't believe they are necessary...


And wages in NC compare to a place where the union is active HOW??

Yeah Bud, the only skilled workers moving to NC for the high wages are from south of the border where there is absolutely no union density what-so-ever.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> And wages in NC compare to a place where the union is active HOW??
> 
> Yeah Bud, the only skilled workers moving to NC for the high wages are from south of the border where there is absolutely no union density what-so-ever.


 

I have no what the average union jman makes. I know a qualified jman would most likely be in the 21 to 23 range here. Maybe a little more or less depending on his skills. A fair wage in my book. NC is a right to work state.
You can be fired or quit at anytime. If you feel you were treated unfairly you can file a complaint and it will be investigated. We don't need a union.

So your saying if you are not union you are unskilled? Why do you think the cost of living is so high in union states? Hmmmm lets see oh yea because the unions make everything more expensive to build or operate.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I have no what the average union jman makes. I know a qualified jman would most likely be in the 21 to 23 range here. Maybe a little more or less depending on his skills. A fair wage in my book. NC is a right to work state.
> You can be fired or quit at anytime. If you feel you were treated unfairly you can file a complaint and it will be investigated. We don't need a union.
> 
> So your saying if you are not union you are unskilled? Why do you think the cost of living is so high in union states? Hmmmm lets see oh yea because the unions make everything more expensive to build or operate.



You are missing the point and commenting on something that doesn't concern you and something that you obviously do not understand. 
Please allow us to have this specific discussion without union bashing.

BTW, if you look at those "producing" States, and see what they contribute to the "welfare" States via tax dollars, you might want to send a thank you note.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> You are missing the point and commenting on something that doesn't concern you and something that you obviously do not understand.
> Please allow us to have this specific discussion without union bashing.



Yeah it is a weak origination and if people post critical things about the union it will fail.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah it is a weak origination and if people post critical things about the union it will fail.


Im just saying, can't we let these people have a conversation and vent their concerns without interjecting anti-union comments.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

I'm pro-union because I think the whole "right to work" you-can-always-quit stuff is a crock. Where the hell am I gonna go when every job in town, construction or otherwise, pays less than $13? That's why I took the exam to do this stuff myself...I'd rather make peanuts working for myself than peanuts working for someone else.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> One more reason it should be 'Solicit your own job.'





RIVETER said:


> I used to be totally against that..but now I agree with you.


You realize this is heresy to the average IBEW member. I've been called some pretty bad things for voicing my opinions in regards to SOJ.

This is what we do in my local, we have a form of SOJ but it's not this ball washing, ass kissing free for all that some would have you believe. it's a 50/50 program for every hire a contractor makes through an SOJ there next hire has to be off the book. This is enforced two ways, 

1) as a member if you do not report to the hiring agent that you were hired through the SOJ you will lose your benefits. (this is important if you wanna stay insured when your laid off) 

2) If a contractor is caught abusing the SOJ system they lose all rights to hire by SOJ at all.

Our system works pretty good and it's fair. Every month at the meetings the numbers are almost identical for SOJ hire's and off the book hire's.
Typically the numbers will read something like this, 49 SOJ's and 52 off the book's.

The only problems we have had right now is the contractors trying to abuse the "short call". What happened was we limited the amount of short job calls a contractor can ask for. 


Some people call me a scab or a rat but I see nothing wrong with a member finding employment as long as it doesn't come at the expense of another member.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I have no what the average union jman makes. I know a qualified jman would most likely be in the 21 to 23 range here. Maybe a little more or less depending on his skills. A fair wage in my book. NC is a right to work state.
> You can be fired or quit at anytime. If you feel you were treated unfairly you can file a complaint and it will be investigated. We don't need a union.
> 
> So your saying if you are not union you are unskilled? Why do you think the cost of living is so high in union states? Hmmmm lets see oh yea because the unions make everything more expensive to build or operate.



:laughing: And some call me _*BRAINWASHED......*_

I'll venture to say that Philadelphia is the strongest union city in the country. So buy your rational  we make everything super expensive. Yet we have Hospitals, colleges, and developers committing BILLIONS of dollars here over the next 10 years. Actually the work out look seems promising, particularly the hospitals. We have a huge health care industry here and the biggest players are expanding with billions of dollars worth of construction. They almost all signed union exclusive contracts.

We also have water front development in the works with global companies looking into land here. It will all be union.

I guess the super inflated cost of union labor didn't really scare anyone away.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> :laughing: ... rashinal .


 
is that a word ? sanskrit, maybe ?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

wildleg said:


> is that a word ? sanskrit, maybe ?



Wow what do you losers do, read whole posts looking for one spelling F-up??

Get a life. :whistling2:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Fixed it, just for you.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Fixed it, just for you.



No you didn't. You forgot the 'e' on the end.:whistling2::laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No you didn't. You forgot the 'e' on the end.:whistling2::laughing:


Its been who knows how many years and that is still funny. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Its been who knows how many years and that is still funny. :thumbsup:


I'm not referring to good old Dan and his 'potatoe' debacle, though.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm not referring to good old Dan and his 'potatoe' debacle, though.


OK then that is even more to laugh about.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> I'm pro-union because I think the whole "right to work" you-can-always-quit stuff is a crock. Where the hell am I gonna go when every job in town, construction or otherwise, pays less than $13? That's why I took the exam to do this stuff myself...I'd rather make peanuts working for myself than peanuts working for someone else.


Move, find another career, man up and take care of yourself.

No is born with a promise they can do the job they like for the pay they want.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I get suspicious when a brother enjoys 'waiting his turn' too much and too often.
> 
> Not saying its you Noah, but I know guys who love all that free money every week and the money from sidejobbin in all that free time.


 I have posted the only side work I do comes from my heart (no monetary charge) AS far as UI, it does not hardly pay the bills.I do like the Ideal of the book system and do whatever I can to advocate taking our turn even when it hurts.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I have no what the average union jman makes. I know a qualified jman would most likely be in the 21 to 23 range here. Maybe a little more or less depending on his skills. A fair wage in my book. NC is a right to work state.
> You can be fired or quit at anytime. If you feel you were treated unfairly you can file a complaint and it will be investigated. We don't need a union.
> 
> So your saying if you are not union you are unskilled? Why do you think the cost of living is so high in union states? Hmmmm lets see oh yea because the unions make everything more expensive to build or operate.


 Where ever I have been around the USA, contractors bid jobs, lowest bid gets contract(no matter if they are union or not) The biggest difference is the workers get a bigger percentage of the contract when working union. This is basic economics of construction(curious to know who taught you what you do not know?) I have worked non union next to some very able and SKILLED workers. What is a union state? By your post your logic make no sense.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Move, find another career, man up and take care of yourself.
> 
> No is born with a promise they can do the job they like for the pay they want.


Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. Problem is its pretty damn hard to fish when all the rods, lakes, and bait are controlled by an elite minority.:whistling2:

Again, impossible to move or find another job when every job in town pays jack squat. I'd sooooo much rather just become the boss. :thumbup:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> The biggest difference is the workers get a bigger percentage of the contract when working union.


How do you figure that? Just asking, but I would like to see the math there.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. Problem is its pretty damn hard to fish when all the rods, lakes, and bait are controlled by an elite minority.:whistling2:


Yeah nice, but meaningless.

You where not born with a promise that you support yourself fishing.



> Again, impossible to move or find another job when every job in town pays jack squat. I'd sooooo much rather just become the boss. :thumbup:


So move, find different work or suck it up.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

millerdrr said:


> ...............Again, impossible to move or find another job when every job in town pays jack squat. I'd sooooo much rather just become the boss. :thumbup:



Wild animals have three choices when things get tough:

Migrate
Adapt
Die

Take your pick. :thumbsup:



Brother Noah said:


> .........(curious to know who taught you what you do not know?) ............ By your post your logic make no sense.


Whose logic doesn't make sense?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

*Dunning–Kruger effect (Bob Effect)*

OK,
This is what we really think of "them":

The *Dunning–Kruger effect* is a cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it."[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than in actuality; by contrast, the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to a perverse result where less competent people will rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence because competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1]


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> OK,
> This is what we really think of "them":


What you 'think of "them"' is cut and paste? :whistling2:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What you 'think of "them"' is cut and paste? :whistling2:


Yes? .....................:thumbsup:


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Wild animals have three choices when things get tough:
> 
> Migrate
> Adapt
> ...



Wild animals also can get food by any means they can. So if someone decided to kill you and your family and raid your fridge it would just be survival.... right? No going to prison no wrongful death lawsuits ect... 

That would make sense if we humans were wild animals. But then again it's typical of you to make a comment like that. 

Here fishy fishy... get any yet? :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Wild animals also can get food by any means they can. So if someone decided to kill you and your family and raid your fridge it would just be survival.... right? No going to prison no wrongful death lawsuits ect...
> 
> That would make sense if we humans were wild animals. But then again it's typical of you to make a comment like that.
> 
> Here fishy fishy... get any yet? :no:


So animals need to unionize.

Do you go to prison when you eat a steak, which is doing the same thing as a wild animal?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

despite all the hooplah and patting oneselves on the back for inventions like the cordless telephone and the xbox, humans have yet to show any sign of "evolving" since they started writing things down. Look around you, not a moment goes by without one of the seven deadly sins or ten commandments or even the golden rule being broken. Yet there is this general feeling that humans have "evoved". Where is the evidence ? All I see is evidence to the contrary; yes, we are animals (and not the good kind - the kind that trashes everything and leaves a mess behind)


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So animals need to unionize.
> 
> Do you go to prison when you eat a steak, which is doing the same thing as a wild animal?



If you're implying that union members are accustomed to eating steak you're misinformed.

And you're stretching with your analogy. Don't fall I wouldn't want you to hurt your self. But again, typical. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> If you're implying that union members are accustomed to eating steak you're misinformed.
> 
> And you're stretching with your analogy. Don't fall I wouldn't want you to hurt your self. But again, typical. :no:


You can't see the forest for the trees. But again, typical.

I'm saying that eating a steak is stealing from the cow, just like animals killing you and raiding your fridge.

Get it yet? 

Here, fishy fishy. Get any yet?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You can't see the forest for the trees. But again, typical.
> 
> I'm saying that eating a steak is stealing from the cow, just like animals killing you and raiding your fridge.
> 
> ...



But you're whole argument is survival... so in your mind it is not stealing. So try again... :whistling2:

I'll tell ya what... I'll go get you a fisher price fishing pole for you to practice with.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So animals need to unionize.


That would never work, animial species survive based on the survival of the fittest concept, the smartest, strongest, fastest, most motivated animals will survive. This allows the species to adapt to changes and become stronger. 

An animial union would reuire all animials, strong or weak, fast or slow, cunning or not, to all get equal shares of food. During hard times the entire species could perish. 

Someday we will figure this out too, I just hope it is before all of our "food" is gone to China and India.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Funny how people equate unions with socialism. 

I think that we would ban together and produce higher quality food more efficiently. 
If there were a finite amount of food, then anarchy would break out, the opposite of a union.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> .....I'll tell ya what... I'll go get you a fisher price fishing pole for you to practice with.


No thanks. I don't use toys. I have a real he-man fishing pole.








​


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Zog said:


> That would never work, animial species survive based on the survival of the fittest concept, the smartest, strongest, fastest, most motivated animals will survive. This allows the species to adapt to changes and become stronger.
> 
> An animial union would reuire all animials, strong or weak, fast or slow, cunning or not, to all get equal shares of food. During hard times the entire species could perish.
> 
> Someday we will figure this out too, I just hope it is before all of our "food" is gone to China and India.


 Once again it is YOUR STORY tell it how you want to(it is not true to any one else but you) I have always learned to help my Brothers and Sisters in times that are harsh.We also learn from each other to be more productive (part of your concept of survival of the fittest) This free ride BS that is being spewed is just that.We help each other adapt and over come obstacles in life.Where do your morals stand?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

You know what my favorite part of the argument against unionism is??

The part where we get blamed for all the problems in the economy and the work force _*THEN*_ on the other side of their coin we're reminded that we only make up 13-15% of the work force and there for are not relevant anymore.

So which one is it? Are we the problem in America? Or are we irrelevant?
I guess the other 87-something% has no bearing on the problems we face in the work place.

You can't have it both ways. Pick your argument and stick with it.

Seems to me the majority will always have more say over what direction something will go. So, where do we point that finger now?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

wildleg said:


> despite all the hooplah and patting oneselves on the back for inventions like the cordless telephone and the xbox, humans have yet to show any sign of "evolving" since they started writing things down. Look around you, not a moment goes by without one of the seven deadly sins or ten commandments or even the golden rule being broken. Yet there is this general feeling that humans have "evoved". Where is the evidence ? All I see is evidence to the contrary; yes, we are animals (and not the good kind - the kind that trashes everything and leaves a mess behind)



Animals contribute equally as compared to what they take. We're more like a cancer, moving from one cell to another using up all the resources on our way and giving nothing back in return.

Look what we just did with this BP disaster.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> You know what my favorite part of the argument against unionism is??
> 
> The part where we get blamed for all the problems in the economy and the work force _*THEN*_ on the other side of their coin we're reminded that we only make up 13-15% of the work force and there for are not relevant anymore.
> 
> ...


As an Autoworker, I deal with this daily. "The reason that Fords are so expensive is because of the Union labor." When we show them the books and prove that the labor is only 5% of the cost of the vehicle, and it is, they don't want to hear about it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> As an Autoworker, I deal with this daily. "The reason that Fords are so expensive is because of the Union labor." When we show them the books and prove that the labor is only 5% of the cost of the vehicle, and it is, they don't want to hear about it.



Of course not. They need some one to blame and for some reason millionaire fat cats like the ceo's share holders and others are untouchable for some reason.

Isn't it amazing how we as union labor are constantly being accused of being over priced. Meanwhile corporate America can literally make millions of dollars and their protected and justified.

Yup, we're the ones who are brainwashed. We're a country of f*cking idiots.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Funny how people equate unions with socialism.


:thumbup:Yep. Very few people can correctly define socialism. I'll help:

Workers own the means of production.

That's it; nothing more, nothing less. A true socialist society has never actually existed in the modern world, regardless of what rogue dictatorships have called themselves. The Catalonia (sp?) experiment just before WWII was the closest thing to true socialism.

Unions are just workers with a contract. Every single business wants a contract before they do anything; I'm not sure why workers should feel bad about desiring a contract themselves. :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Funny how people equate unions with socialism.


You find the truth funny?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> :thumbup:Yep. Very few people can correctly define socialism. I'll help:
> 
> Workers own the means of production.
> 
> ...


Acatully there is no 'true' definition of socialism.

But in some ways you are right, the union does not own the means of production, they just want to control what they don't own so it is an even lower form of existence.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Acatully there is no 'true' definition of socialism.
> 
> But in some ways you are right, the union does not own the means of production, they just want to control what they don't own so it is an even lower form of resistance.


They don't own their own labor and sweat?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> They don't own their own labor and sweat?


Forget it, you are to far gone.

The workers do not own the company yet they want to control how it is run and who they can hire.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Forget it, you are to far gone.
> 
> The workers do not own the company yet they want to control how it is run and who they can hire.


It seems to me that the people who are trained in their particular trade, and have developed professional foreman and general foremen would be the ultimate choice in controlling the field work.
With that said, professional estimators and professional managers along with logistic support should belong to the office.

Perhaps it is just a different management philosophy.

Each contractor makes money, one has more money in the field, the other keeps more money in the office. 
I really do not understand how a company can manage its labor force without a contract in place. 
What happens when people find out what others make and is more or less 
then they are paid? Our trade is full of egomaniacs. 
This has to be a huge issue.

In union shops a minimum wage is established, not all of the time, the management is usually on the lookout for guys that show great initiative in learning a particular system, leadership, organizational skills or whatever. These people are given more responsibility and usually end up being foreman or general foreman and with that comes a bit more money and a truck.
Not everyone is interested in this, most just want eight for eight and are very good at what they do. Not everyone can work OT, weekends or holidays due to personal reasons. This is respected.
With this, just due to the numbers of people that are involved, are the lunatic fringe. These people no more represent the typical union worker than Beck or Limbaugh represent the typical Republican.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> ................Each contractor makes money, one has more money in the field, the other keeps more money in the office. ...............


And which one the money is put into should be the choice of the owners. But the unions seem to think otherwise.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I'm saying that eating a steak is stealing from the cow, just like animals killing you and raiding your fridge.
> 
> Get it yet?


Dude, I get it, you're a vegetarian.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> The workers do not own the company yet they want to control how it is run and who they can hire.


Bob is tired of being excluded, because he doesn't want to sign on with the local.

Bob is mad at the world, the other kids won't let him play ball.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Dude, I get it, you're a vegetarian.



Wrong. Try again.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Dude, I get it, you're a vegetarian.



He's actually a pescetarian. But isn't very good at it.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Forget it, you are to far gone.


:laughing: I suppose you're right...


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> :laughing: And some call me _*BRAINWASHED......*_
> 
> I'll venture to say that Philadelphia is the strongest union city in the country. So buy your rational we make everything super expensive. Yet we have Hospitals, colleges, and developers committing BILLIONS of dollars here over the next 10 years. Actually the work out look seems promising, particularly the hospitals. We have a huge health care industry here and the biggest players are expanding with billions of dollars worth of construction. They almost all signed union exclusive contracts.
> 
> ...


 
You are forgetting that the WHOLE AREA you live in is union. And yes unions do make things super expensive. My point was electricians here are paid a fair wage.Unions do raise the cost of building and employing people. Our cost of living is less partly because it takes less money to build things and operate businesses. And workers are payed a fair wage. The jobs on the books are there because thats the price the businesses pay to be located in your city. Try actually reading what people write with your union glasses off.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> You are forgetting that the WHOLE AREA you live in is union. And yes unions do make things super expensive. My point was electricians here are paid a fair wage.Unions do raise the cost of building and employing people. Our cost of living is less partly because it takes less money to build things and operate businesses. And workers are payed a fair wage. The jobs on the books are there because thats the price the businesses pay to be located in your city. Try actually reading what people write with your union glasses off.



The are some high rise condo's in NYC that were built non-union. They cost the same to buy as the one's that were built union. That's one example.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> As an Autoworker, I deal with this daily. "The reason that Fords are so expensive is because of the Union labor." When we show them the books and prove that the labor is only 5% of the cost of the vehicle, and it is, they don't want to hear about it.


 
Labor only 5%? Ok does that 5% include all benefits and healthcare? I bet it does not. I read almost 1500.00 is added to EVERY GM car due to union contracts. 1500 x every car IS a lot of green.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Labor only 5%? Ok does that 5% include all benefits and healthcare? I bet it does not. I read almost 1500.00 is added to EVERY GM car due to union contracts. 1500 x every car IS a lot of green.



Ok... 5% of a 25,000 Ford Tarus is $1250. That's pretty much in the ballpark. But it is true that roughly 8 - 10%, which includes labor, bennies, health care and pension, is added to the cost of a car. 

With benefits... UAW workers make around $45 an hour.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> You are missing the point and commenting on something that doesn't concern you and something that you obviously do not understand.
> Please allow us to have this specific discussion without union bashing.
> 
> BTW, if you look at those "producing" States, and see what they contribute to the "welfare" States via tax dollars, you might want to send a thank you note.


 
Get your union glasses off and read all I wrote. You union guys are SO defensive its funny. It concerns me as much as you bud.Are you in that local? I had a job right out of high school at bendix and I was union because everyone else was. Where did I bash a union? I didn't. And by the way I have no clue what a producing state is. Every state has welfare and Bama just repealed what was done in 94 to allow more people to set around and not work. Read my last two sentences..you know the one where I said would I join a union...I don't know. To each HIS OWN.:yes:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> And wages in NC compare to a place where the union is active HOW??
> 
> Yeah Bud, the only skilled workers moving to NC for the high wages are from south of the border where there is absolutely no union density what-so-ever.


 
Oh yea weren't unions created to improve working conditions? They have turned into being all about wages. Did my post say anything about wages?Nope.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> You are forgetting that the WHOLE AREA you live in is union. And yes unions do make things super expensive. My point was electricians here are paid a fair wage.Unions do raise the cost of building and employing people. Our cost of living is less partly because it takes less money to build things and operate businesses. And workers are payed a fair wage. The jobs on the books are there because thats the price the businesses pay to be located in your city. Try actually reading what people write with your union glasses off.


Your state also has one of the highest poverty levels in the country. What's your definition of a fair wage? So my wages are unfair? Why isn't industry flocking to your city with the low cost of doing business and all? I mean, with the cost of doing business being so high in the N.E. you would think that the development would come to a halt. Seems to me all the Hospitals, Colleges, Refineries,etc would have left a long time ago. Philadelphia international just announced a $535 million dollar expansion.I guess the super high cost of union labor didn't scare them off.
Your argument is mute. Yes the cost of living is lower in your state but the poverty is higher.





jwjrw said:


> Labor only 5%? Ok does that 5% include all benefits and healthcare? I bet it does not. I read almost 1500.00 is added to EVERY GM car due to union contracts. 1500 x every car IS a lot of green.


You know what would be even more green?? If all the auto workers only made $15 per hour and needed government assistance for health insurance, food stamps, public housing,etc, etc, you get the idea.
Let's say a brand new Ford F-150 cost $30,000 and the labor was 10% that's only 3g's right? That brings the cost to $27,000 is that a better price for you?




jwjrw said:


> Oh yea weren't unions created to improve working conditions? They have turned into being all about wages. Did my post say anything about wages?Nope.



I guess the two have no correlation on each other.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

It amazes me how so many claim to know so much about the topic of this thread "UNION INTEGRITY" but are not even union, even with that to the side BASIC ECONOMICS CLASS 101 if a construction job is put out to bid, most of the time the lowest bid gets the job (union or not makes no difference) The only difference would be the workers get more of a share of the money working union than their counter part non union. Being union does not make our prices go up except maybe for that minor thing about safety, now if you do not mind if persons die or get harmed during the process of the said job then we can make it CHEAPER. Come on now we can make up fairy tales all day long and if we tell them enough we might even start to believe them.The working class do not control the money and its worth.I guess with all the twisted truths and slurs on past missteps we can be put at odds with each other long enough to ignore where our problems really lie.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Your state also has one of the highest poverty levels in the country. What's your definition of a fair wage? So my wages are unfair? Why isn't industry flocking to your city with the low cost of doing business and all? I mean, with the cost of doing business being so high in the N.E. you would think that the development would come to a halt. Seems to me all the Hospitals, Colleges, Refineries,etc would have left a long time ago. Philadelphia international just announced a $535 million dollar expansion.I guess the super high cost of union labor didn't scare them off.
> Your argument is mute. Yes the cost of living is lower in your state but the poverty is higher.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> slickvic277 said:
> 
> 
> > Your state also has one of the highest poverty levels in the country. What's your definition of a fair wage? So my wages are unfair? Why isn't industry flocking to your city with the low cost of doing business and all? I mean, with the cost of doing business being so high in the N.E. you would think that the development would come to a halt. Seems to me all the Hospitals, Colleges, Refineries,etc would have left a long time ago. Philadelphia international just announced a $535 million dollar expansion.I guess the super high cost of union labor didn't scare them off.
> ...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> We have a whole lot of lazy people who live off the welfare state that has nothing to do with wages. I did say a average j-man makes 21.00 to 23.00 on average many as much as 28.00 and with the cost of living being lower that is fair.


Oh another giant misconception, _*MOST*_ people who except government assistance are the working poor. And yes the wages have everything to do with poverty level in a given area. Your fooled into believing that everyone wants a freebee and the union labor is earning millions of dollars, yet your the same type of person who protects the ceo's and management of places like Wallmart, Massey energy, and BP.

Do you not see the correlation between the two???



> *Did I ever say your wages were unfair? NO. but I do believe unions* *jobs are overpayed in a lot of cases*(auto manufacture for 1). If you can get it by all means get it. Again all I'm saying is unions were not created to argue wages. They were created to help with horrible working conditions. We did not have federal and state laws to protect workers then like we do now either. I even said Im all for making sure workers arent discriminated against and that working conditions are safe.


O.K. a, this is a contradiction is it not? Again your brainwashed by talk radio about union labor being overpaid. You know what cracks me up about people like you, you claim labor is over paid yet you protect the likes of Lee Scott who's total compensation was over 30 million dollars in 2009. 
Your lack of knowledge of labor history is astounding, do you make it up as you go along? 



> No one is coming to NC because we have very high income tax rates and a very high gas tax. Freaking democrats that run the state are killing us. :whistling2:


 If you haven't noticed both parties could give a rat's ass about me or you.
Again brainwashed.




> once again you didn't read what I wrote. The business that WANT /NEED to do business in your area do so for their own reasons. It could be because of population or closer to west coast. Who knows.


Are you responding to me???? I'm in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

That's on the east coast.



> And yes auto workers are way overpayed in my book. If unions are so great why am I not looking and wanting to join one? Because they are not in this area and I make a good living without one doing my bidding for me.
> Again all I said was they were started to look out for the workers safety etc, now its all about money and corruption is a problem in a lot of them. I said im glad they are not here. Thats all I never said anything negative. Just that I don't think they are needed anymore. Lighten up dude and don't be so sensative. Even my _*bitch*_ dosent whine as much as you guys.:laughing:


Union labor is overpaid, why? because on average we make more then you.
If you even had a piece of a clue you would realize that unions are needed more then ever. Under George Bush JR. the disparity between the middle class and the top earners is at an all time high with the average wages of the middle class actually falling.

The ignorance you displayed in your posts just reassures my beliefs that the majority of Americans are Idiots.

Tell your bitch I said hi,:brows::laughing:


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## minibdr (Nov 11, 2009)

badger can`t keep his mouth shut about anything. For gods sake badger blab about subjects that pertain to you like abc and how great they are or how to be a loner crap on everyone else as long as you get yours. Or my fav how you can`t cut it with the big boys so you are what you are a grumpy critical bad mouthing miserable web site trooling no life loser.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw, what are your qualifications that enable you to tell me that I am overpaid? It cannot be the price of the vehicles that make it so. Why would you make a statement like that? Are you satisfied with what you are paid? I hope you are and I wish you the best in gaining more income as time goes by. I can tell you one thing by experience. I have never known someone who was given more money per hour by making disparaging remarks about other's pay.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> jwjrw, what are your qualifications that enable you to tell me that I am overpaid? It cannot be the price of the vehicles that make it so. Why would you make a statement like that? Are you satisfied with what you are paid? I hope you are and I wish you the best in gaining more income as time goes by. I can tell you one thing by experience. I have never known someone who was given more money per hour by making disparaging remarks about other's pay.



Nope, he's satisfied with his apprentice wage's, theirs nothing wrong with that either.

See, his problem is a deep rooted psychological one, he suffers from a low self esteem coupled with a inferiority complex. 

Out of all the guy's I've argued with here he seems to be the most clueless. Or at lease one of the most.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Oh another giant misconception, _*MOST*_ people who except government assistance are the working poor. And yes the wages have everything to do with poverty level in a given area. Your fooled into believing that everyone wants a freebee and the union labor is earning millions of dollars, yet your the same type of person who protects the ceo's and management of places like Wallmart, Massey energy, and BP.
> 
> Do you not see the correlation between the two???
> 
> ...


 Although I agree with much of what you post, this last sentence is uncalled for Vic.We are all fighting to stay in the middle class and out of the poorhouse by plying the same trade but we find it difficult to get past our bias against each other to lend a hand up to one another,WHY?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Although I agree with much of what you post, this last sentence is uncalled for Vic.We are all fighting to stay in the middle class and out of the poorhouse by plying the same trade but we find it difficult to get past our bias against each other to lend a hand up to one another,WHY?



Your right. It was, but sometimes i can't help my self. I'll try harder in the future.:thumbsup:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> The only difference would be the workers get more of a share of the money working union than their counter part non union.


 Still waiting to see the math on this one. 



Brother Noah said:


> Being union does not make our prices go up except maybe for that minor thing about safety, now if you do not mind if persons die or get harmed during the process of the said job then we can make it CHEAPER.


What does union or non-union have to do with safety? OSHA training requirements are the same for both groups, I trained EC's, union and non-union, for 15 years and they have pretty equal safety records. Neither group on average, does any more or less safety training.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> As an Autoworker, I deal with this daily. "The reason that Fords are so expensive is because of the Union labor." When we show them the books and prove that the labor is only 5% of the cost of the vehicle, and it is, they don't want to hear about it.


This is from the UAW website. http://www.uaw.org/node/287

The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
This represents 8.4 percent of the typical $28,4513 price of a new vehicle in 2006.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Zog said:


> This is from the UAW website. http://www.uaw.org/node/287
> 
> The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
> This represents 8.4 percent of the typical $28,4513 price of a new vehicle in 2006.


I stated that earlier... but ok. You believe that's too much cost in labor? Now remember that includes direct, indirect and salaried labor. Not just the assembly line or even the skill tradesmen.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> Ok... 5% of a 25,000 Ford Tarus is $1250. That's pretty much in the ballpark. But it is true that roughly 8 - 10%, which includes labor, bennies, health care and pension, is added to the cost of a car.
> 
> With benefits... UAW workers make around $45 an hour.


Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."










UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006. About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits
The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include:

<LI nodeIndex="1">Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits; <LI nodeIndex="2">Dental and vision benefits; <LI nodeIndex="3">Group life insurance; <LI nodeIndex="4">Disability benefits; <LI nodeIndex="5">Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB); <LI nodeIndex="6">Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement; <LI nodeIndex="7">Unemployment compensation; and 
Payroll taxes (employer's share).


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Zog said:


> Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do realize that $73 hourly myth include the bennies and pensions and so on of not only active workers but retired workers. That's like adding up social security, medicare, medicaid, ect... to the general population and uping our average. 

UAW workers make around 45 an hour with bennies. In Michigan. Not ever UAW worker makes that.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> The are some high rise condo's in NYC that were built non-union. They cost the same to buy as the one's that were built union. That's one example.


You have to consider when a building is appraised it is based off of all the buildings in the area as well.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> You do realize that $73 hourly myth include the bennies and pensions and so on of not only active workers but retired workers.


Yes I realize that, it is all broken down in the post I provided, did you read it? A large percentage of those costs is for retired workers, that is the problem, and that is why the labor costs are so much more than other automakers. 


Chris21 said:


> That's like adding up social security, medicare, medicaid, ect... to the general population and uping our average.


 No it is not the same, those apply to everyone so if you add them to one group you have to add them to the other. 



Chris21 said:


> UAW workers make around 45 an hour with bennies. In Michigan.


 No, it is $73.26/hr, the info I posted is from the automakers themselves and became public info after thier bailouts. 



Chris21 said:


> . Not ever UAW worker makes that.


 Right, that is an average, some make more, some make less.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> jwjrw, what are your qualifications that enable you to tell me that I am overpaid? It cannot be the price of the vehicles that make it so. Why would you make a statement like that? Are you satisfied with what you are paid? I hope you are and I wish you the best in gaining more income as time goes by. I can tell you one thing by experience. I have never known someone who was given more money per hour by making disparaging remarks about other's pay.


 

First off I stated if you can get that pay go for it. Second I stated I THINK auto workers are overpayed. That is an opinion and based on gm and the government buyout. I also said I'm all for unions that look out for workers rights and safety.Like OUR fireman and policeman(they cant strike or argue for pay) I only stated in my original post that the unions used to be necessary for workers protection but now that we have federal and state laws that do that and they are not necessary in my OPINION. MY father started the company I work for. I now run the company and we do well. We got slow for a few months then I started advertising and things have picked up. In 37 years dad never advertised. Never had to. And if it offened you Im sorry but again what I originally posted was turned into every union guy getting so defensive because they didn't comprehend what I wrote. I even said if everywhere around me was union I would probably be also. Stop being so defensive guys. Say I pay my guys **** I don't care. If they don't want to work for what I pay they can go else where its the AMERICAN way. Earn what you get don't expect someone to bargin for it for you.Again my OPINION. Just like an *** everyone has one!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> jwjrw said:
> 
> 
> > JWJ,
> ...


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> I stated that earlier... but ok. You believe that's too much cost in labor? Now remember that includes direct, indirect and salaried labor. Not just the assembly line or even the skill tradesmen.


It is too much, according to this report:
*Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004*

*GM: $1,525*

Toyota: $201

_*Source:* 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc._ 

Much of that comes from retiree benifits, and this does nto include any labors, just health care costs. Compare 2 similar cars, say a Malibu and a Camry. $1,324 adds a lot of nice options, leather, nav system, premium sound, etc..


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Oh another giant misconception, _*MOST*_ people who except government assistance are the working poor. And yes the wages have everything to do with poverty level in a given area. Your fooled into believing that everyone wants a freebee and the union labor is earning millions of dollars, yet your the same type of person who protects the ceo's and management of places like Wallmart, Massey energy, and BP.
> 
> Do you not see the correlation between the two???
> 
> ...


 
You are really funny. I never said the republicans were better. The democrats have been running the show here for years. Because of that we have a welfare abuse problem. Come drive around here one day and see how many are sitting on the corner drinking at 10am. Ask them why they don't work. They will tell you they dont have to they have all they need and if they do the ASSISTANCE goes away. Did I ever say I was against ASSISTANCE? Nope some people really do need help. Did I say I liked bush? Nope. If my knowledge is so little an all americans are idiots to you then so be it. I'm just glad all you smart union guys aren't here. I know my small mind and large pocketbook thanks to my hard work would not be worthy to stand next to you all.:notworthy::lol:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank GOD! I found my way out of the twilight zone!(union thread) SEE YA!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> jrannis said:
> 
> 
> > Really? My 4 year degree and the fact that the less I pay out the more I make tells me I know all I need to. I don't depend on someone to give me a raise. If I want one I give myself one.
> ...


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> jwjrw said:
> 
> 
> > OK don't keep me in suspense, what is your degree in?
> ...


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> jrannis said:
> 
> 
> > My degree is in Union labor!
> ...


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> jrannis said:
> 
> 
> > My degree is in Union labor!
> ...


----------



## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

I call bs on the compensation rates from the auto manufacturers. I tried selling cars for Ford a few years back; they have some fancy accounting...

A tank of gas at a local unattended station was bought in bulk, but they charged it against the salesman's commission at rental car rates, about triple $ per gallon.

A cheap plastic license plate frame probably costs a quarter, but they charged $25 apiece for it, because that's what they would sell it for if they could find someone that stupid.

The guy who washed the car was paid about $7/hr, yet the bill for washing a car deducted over $400 from the recorded profit, because they claim that's what they would charge if they were in the car-washing business.

I bet that $75/hr total compensation package from GM includes a lot of $80 coffee cups and $400 T-shirts, because hey, that's what they would sell it for.:jester:


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> jrannis said:
> 
> 
> > My degree is in Union labor!
> ...


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> I call bs on the compensation rates from the auto manufacturers. I tried selling cars for Ford a few years back; they have some fancy accounting...
> 
> A tank of gas at a local unattended station was bought in bulk, but they charged it against the salesman's commission at rental car rates, about triple $ per gallon.
> 
> ...



That magic number also includes government required benefits and costs. Such as unemployment, medicare, social security and so on.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Zog said:


> It is too much, according to this report:
> *Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004*
> 
> *GM: $1,525*
> ...



Do the math... $1525 per car. Average work with bennies make about $38 an hour. 38 x 40 hours = 1520.

Where's the rest of the 32 bux? Well I'll tell you... like one of your posts stated... it's direct, indirect and so on. And it also include unemployment bennies paid into, medicare and so on.

And the amount ANY auto company charges for options is outrageous. But no one argues it.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> jrannis said:
> 
> 
> > My degree is in Union labor!
> ...


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jrannis said:


> jwjrw said:
> 
> 
> > LOL,
> ...


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> jwjrw said:
> 
> 
> > Your all over the place, first were over paid and now you do better then us. Which one is it? It can't be both. What's your degree in? Union Labor? I didn't know that was a class.......There's labor law that a degree is offered in......Where did you get this degree?? Let me guess it's a BS right.:whistling2:
> ...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> This is from the UAW website. http://www.uaw.org/node/287
> 
> The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
> This represents 8.4 percent of the typical $28,4513 price of a new vehicle in 2006.


The percent I quoted was the union represented labor not salaried. The salaried portion is labor ,as well, but typically they don't get blamed for the cost.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> The percent I quoted was the union represented labor not salaried. The salaried portion is labor ,as well, but typically they don't get blamed for the cost.


Yep, and that is a big part of the problem too. I know an EE that works for one of the big 3 that was sent to a automotive industry conference and found out his company had 20 people doing the job of 1 person at Toyota. There are a lot of issues contributing to the demise of the US auto industry, UAW is one of those factors, but not the only one by any means.

IMO the biggest knock on the UAW is the retirement and heath care packages they are locked into from when times were good and the US auto indystry seemed untouchable. The OEM's agreed to some stuff they probally should not have and are now suffereing from it. The blame for this always seems to be placed on the UAW, but it was an agreement between both parties. Then again, when the agreements were made health care costs were a fraction of what they are today, average annual health care increases are 14%/year right now. 

As far as the pay structure goes, most skilled trades earn what they make, maybe not everyday but some days make up for the slow ones. But that person who has 1 minute to put a panel on a vehicle (Actually operating a robot to do it) and it takes 10 seconds so they put one on, sit down and read a book for 100 seconds and then put the next panel on before the vehicle gets to the end of thier station and triggers an alarm is hardly earning what they often get paid. You know the ones I am talking about and I do not think you would disagree.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

When our union, the UAW, negotiated the health care for us there was ,and still is enough money to pay for it. Corporate got legislation that allowed them to only put in a small percentage of the bargained amount to cover it, and the shareholders and the Big Wigs took home fairly large sums. They took home those large paydays at the expense of the labor force. Had they contributed the full amount per person or even close to it there would be no problem. And that goes for the pension benefits, as well. No one seems to care that a lot of the corporate BIG WIGS are taking home sums per hour that would stagger the imagination.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> As an Autoworker, I deal with this daily. "The reason that Fords are so expensive is because of the Union labor." When we show them the books and prove that the labor is only 5% of the cost of the vehicle, and it is, they don't want to hear about it.


 
The main issue is that there is more of a global competition against others nowadays than ever before. This, coupled with intense downward price pressure, forces the consumer to just look at price, before origin of the product they are interested in.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> No one seems to care that a lot of the corporate BIG WIGS are taking home sums per hour that would stagger the imagination.


I care

Some deserve it, guys who come in a save a company turn it around so I can flourish are worth it. Anyone who is one of the best in the world at what they do is worth anything they can get. 

Now some of these last few chumps the big 3 have brought in have done nothing positive and after a few short months at the helm are rightfully replaced, problem is, they are release with a huge severance package, for making matters worse. Mulally and Stroanach are prime examples.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> The main issue is that there is more of a global competition against others nowadays than ever before. This, coupled with intense downward price pressure, forces the consumer to just look at price, before origin of the product they are interested in.


 
Furthermore...


If you took all the imports away from the US market, the average consumer would pay more because they did not have a lower cost option. So, unions or not, Americans would do more in supporting their fellow citizens that make product in the USA...

No easy solution here...:no:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Furthermore...
> 
> 
> If you took all the imports away from the US market, the average consumer would pay more because they did not have a lower cost option. So, unions or not, Americans would do more in supporting their fellow citizens that make product in the USA...
> ...


I am really not that sure that this would apply to the automotive market. If the overseas units were not here maybe our domestic market would up-price a bit; However, they all seem to hover around the US product price. If they were ALL that inexpensive to make,:thumbsup: there would be a larger disparity in price.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Zog...you know I love you man.But what is the purpose of displaying all of this good information? Why not research what oil well firefighters earn per hour? Why not detail what neuroscientists earn. Why not tell us what Hi voltage specialists and mitigators get? I've been here for a long time and know what an auto worker has to deal with. A lot of people...hundreds have quit because they can't stand working in the extreme hot and extreme cold or they cannot take the repetitive work. Good money attracts people to do these kinds of work and they deserve every bit of it. If the Chinese and the Japanese and the Koreans can build a car cheaper, why do they cost about the same in a given segment?
There, I said it...but I still love you man. AND, I know what you do for a living, and I think that you DO deserve more than an average payday.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> If the Chinese and the Japanese and the Koreans can build a car cheaper, why do they cost about the same in a given segment?


You really asking that?

If I could make a car for half the price of others making the same level of car I would be an idiot to sell it for half price. I would sell for just under my competition so I could pocket more.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am really not that sure that this would apply to the automotive market. If the overseas units were not here maybe our domestic market would up-price a bit; However, they all seem to hover around the US product price. If they were ALL that inexpensive to make,:thumbsup: there would be a larger disparity in price.


 
Who said that a $25K car was inexpensive??:no: However, if the Big 3 had virtually identical UAW employment contracts, and there were no other domestic auto companies that provided competition...you could bet that we would all pay more, because the UAW would not be held back by foreign competition comparisons of wages. The only thing they would be even more upset with is automation....

I can remember how rattled the UAW was back in the early 80's with the advent of welding robots appearing on the Big 3's assembly line...Japan (Honda) was already kicking our butt when it came to that kind of automation. It meant that UAW line membership was going to drop...and drop it did..So they organized office workers, health care workers & other non-auto employees. 

From a 2001 article in Automotive Digest:

" - A UAW plant that required 4K workers in 1970's can today produce same with 2.5-3K workers 

- In 1979, it took Ford 4.71 workers to build 1-vehicle, now 2.97 workers" 

Back in the 70's and 80's, autos were half as complex as they are today, with less options. Yet, today, with all those 'extras' that are standard equipment, the cars don't cost that much more. Not to mention, manufacturing automation has come a long way (CAD design, simulations, robots, etc.). All of this has made it very easy (comparatively to their predecessors) for the average auto line worker to do his or her job - assembling highly engineered components in a fast paced environment.

Its not necessarily the $/hr that really jacks up the cost difference...it's all the extras like pensions, health care, job-banks, work rules, etc...etc. They really add to the company's cost. In many cases, those added costs are exclusive to those companies that negotiated them with the UAW - in this case Ford, GM, & Chrysler..


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Larry, I won't argue with you about it. I would just hope that someone notices that if the pensions etc., are all that cost prohibitive that the price of the vehicle must go up to support it, why are the executives of the world of auto manufacturing taking home millions of dollars as well. Where do you suppose that money comes from? We may be able to withstand one executive taking it, but not 5000.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> You really asking that?
> 
> If I could make a car for half the price of others making the same level of car I would be an idiot to sell it for half price. I would sell for just under my competition so I could pocket more.


Exactly, we're on the same page.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> That magic number also includes government required benefits and costs. Such as unemployment, medicare, social security and so on.


Yeah, I got that, I was just saying that I dispute the number released by the industry. I think the one who posted the chart (Zog?) said it was released by the auto makers in their SEC reports. Naturally, given our nation's recent history with shady accounting, I don't trust the corporate numbers. 

Take a look at this chart from the Dept of Labor reprinted on the UAW website; their number is barely half the total claimed by the auto execs. For example, the bosses may take six bucks an hour out for health insurance, but given the size of the corporation, that sounds a "bit" expensive. Further, it ignores the fact that they have a financial interest in a variety of companies who provide the benefits, thus regaining some of their original expenses via the profits of businesses like Ford Motor Credit and GMAC (at least until recently:laughing I bet their actual cash outlay on benefits is a tiny fraction of what they are claiming. Its sorta like Hannity railing about out-of-control spending on the bailout packages while simultaneously ignoring the fact that most of money allocated by the two Presidents for economic stimulus has never actually been spent nor left the Treasury.:no:

http://www.uaw.org/node/167


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Larry, I won't argue with you about it. I would just hope that someone notices that if the pensions etc., are all that cost prohibitive that the price of the vehicle must go up to support it, why are the executives of the world of auto manufacturing taking home millions of dollars as well. Where do you suppose that money comes from? We may be able to withstand one executive taking it, but not 5000.


 
No argument here!:thumbsup:

Executive/Management compensation will *always* be a sore spot among all who are on the line or in labor. The more unionized a particular company is, the more contentious it is. 

Who are we to say that a CEO should or shouldn't earn millions? What if that was the 'going rate' for a competent leader? What if a particular CEO had his salary cut in half? Would the union still think he was on par with them? No.

It's the company board members that set the salary of many of these folks - so labor should go after them for agreeing to such deals. 

I don't think the senior executives of Honda or Toyota are earning chicken scratch either... They certainly are earning millions as well...you just don't hear about it from the union reps of those companies...why?

My pet peeve is salaries of pro athletes...If they lived a modest lifestyle, those millions saved would last them for the rest of their lives. How many times have you seen retired pros blow through MILLIONS and they are only 50 years old and broke? 

Better yet are high profile actors...musicians...or entertainers making millions of dollars...Where are the unions grumbling about those folks too?

All I know is that I am not making a million+ dollars a year and I would like to...so what should I do?:jester:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Zog...you know I love you man.But what is the purpose of displaying all of this good information? Why not research what oil well firefighters earn per hour? Why not detail what neuroscientists earn.


 I was just responding to Chris's post that they make $45/hr including benifits, which I knew was wrong, so I posted the numbers the federal government has, which is as real of data as you will find. 



RIVETER said:


> Why not tell us what Hi voltage specialists and mitigators get?


This forum has limits on the symbols that can be used in one post :jester:



RIVETER said:


> I've been here for a long time and know what an auto worker has to deal with. A lot of people...hundreds have quit because they can't stand working in the extreme hot and extreme cold or they cannot take the repetitive work. Good money attracts people to do these kinds of work and they deserve every bit of it.


 Most are and do, but there are enough people working the system that it is obvious to an outsider like me spending 10 years in nearly every plant in the US, they are there, and everyone knows it. Not just one or two either, some take pride in it. My neighbor in Detroit worked for Ford for 25 years. the last 3 years I lived there he did not spend more than the few minutes it took him to punch in and out at the plant. Punch in, go home, sleep 7 hours, go punch out. Took pride in it too. 



RIVETER said:


> If the Chinese and the Japanese and the Koreans can build a car cheaper, why do they cost about the same in a given segment?]/quote] Tarrifs., taxes, and the fact those don't need to sell them any cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Much has been made of executive pay lately, and I think much of the banking industry has egregious examples. In terms of our field, I've always thought the honchos deserved the cream. At my shop a lot of guys wax poetic about our owners multiple residences and cars, but he earned them. It's his money on the line, and his equipment. I know myself enough to know I am not a good candidate to be an owner. If you think you deserve more money, start your shop and be done with it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

goose134 said:


> Much has been made of executive pay lately, and I think much of the banking industry has egregious examples. In terms of our field, I've always thought the honchos deserved the cream. At my shop a lot of guys wax poetic about our owners multiple residences and cars, but he earned them. It's his money on the line, and his equipment. I know myself enough to know I am not a good candidate to be an owner. If you think you deserve more money, start your shop and be done with it.


It is good that you know yourself and are content, and that is okay. But don't ever forget that you have a bargaining chip and that is your qualified labor. You have the right to sell yourself and your labor for what the market will bear just as McDonald's does with their Big Macs.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> It is good that you know yourself and are content, and that is okay. But don't ever forget that you have a bargaining chip and that is your qualified labor. You have the right to sell yourself and your labor for what the market will bear just as McDonald's does with their Big Macs.



Oh, I agree. Our local says I get paid x, but if I felt like I deserved more I could always ask. I've had a few occasions where I got more because I laid out a job or programmed Lutron systems.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It is good that you know yourself and are content, and that is okay. But don't ever forget that you have a bargaining chip and that is your qualified labor. You have the right to sell yourself and your labor for what the market will bear just as McDonald's does with their Big Macs.


 
*"You have the right to sell yourself and your labor for what the market will bear"*

Of course you do. This same principle also applies to the CEO's, Senior executives, athletes, actors... which everyone complains are overpaid. The market sets the price...sort of like an auction. The highest bidder gets the talent, and as a result, sets the bar that much higher for the next guy.

I believe that it always comes down to the "have's" vs. the "have-not's"...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108769/more-americans-say-us-nation-haves-havenots.aspx

Of course...that labeling only applies to income, but there are many that value life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness much differently.:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> *"You have the right to sell yourself and your labor for what the market will bear"*
> 
> Of course you do. This same principle also applies to the CEO's, Senior executives, athletes, actors... which everyone complains are overpaid. The market sets the price...sort of like an auction. The highest bidder gets the talent, and as a result, sets the bar that much higher for the next guy.
> 
> ...


Other than quoting my post I have no idea what you are meaning. And as far as the "Haves" and the "Have nots", which category do you fall in? Didn't you ask for your salary? If you took the job, was that all you were worth?


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> http://www.gallup.com/poll/108769/more-americans-say-us-nation-haves-havenots.aspx


Over a third of those making less than 20k/year believe they are "Haves"?:blink:

Wow, Joe McCarthy's brainwashing sure is persistent...:whistling2:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Other than quoting my post I have no idea what you are meaning. And as far as the "Haves" and the "Have nots", which category do you fall in? Didn't you ask for your salary? If you took the job, was that all you were worth?


 
I was offered a salary, it was in line with others who have similar knowledge, skill, and experience, and I accepted. 

Gee..I think I am worth $$$Millions$$$, but just about any potential employer won't agree.:001_huh: This is because they gage their compensation level against the overall market value of a particular job function. It doesn't matter what I think I am worth...If I want the job, it pays X - take it or leave it. Negotiating will only get me so far.

Like I said in my previous post, the "Have's and Have-Not's" comparison typically applies to income, but there are those that value life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness much differently.

I see myself as mainly a "Have" when compared to others that are not as fortunate, but as a "have-not" when I compare myself to those that are much higher on the food chain than I am. 

I play hockey..I play pretty well...does that mean I should get paid to play? I think I should, but apparently I am not good enough to make the cut. Who's fault is that? The market only starts to pay for a certain skill level..The better you are, the more you get paid.

Perceived Value is what drives market values...job functions are ultimately no different than product. If you want to be paid more, you need to change consumer perceived value of what you have to offer.:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Okay, LJSmith, I agree with the majority of what you said, so I'll give you that. But the notion of "Perceived Value" bothers me. It sounds as if when a person bought a house he paid $100,000 for it but now it's worth $80,000. To me, a man's labor is more fluid and the pay goes with the talent.


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