# Are you union or non-union?



## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Just curious


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Just curious


Nope..


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## Master Apprentice (Jan 25, 2012)

I used to be an IBEW member.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Just in case anyone out there really wants to know what I think ...

I've worked both 'union' and 'non-union.' Neither was ever by choice; the decision was made long before you ever applied for the job. 

Then again, it makes no more sense to group all 'unions' together than it is to group all employers. Some are great, and some are terrible. 

It's interesting to note that in the union places, all my problems came from other union members- rather than the 'evil' management. "Seniority" seemed to protect all the wrong guys. The union also seemed to tolerate inept managers but was pure hell on any that appeared competent.

So ... what do I like about "unions?" Well, as I see it, a union can do a lot for both the worker AND the employer. There's no reason for it to be 'us' vs. 'them.'

A union is in a very good position to train workers, and provide them with the credentials they can carry from job to job. NEC? RRP? OSHA? Asbestos? BICSI? Document it once with the union, and you have something of value to employers. No need for every employer to pay to have you recertified- or to doubt what the past employers really trained you to do.

A union is in a very good position to screen employees, providing the employer with guys who are already drug-free and background-checked. They're also in a great position to efficiently place workers in jobs as they are needed.

Finally, unions are in a position where they could, if they wanted, take a lot of the regulatory and benefit burden off the employer. Think "Manpower" on steroids.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

This makes as much sense as if you're left handed or right handed.. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I am an electrician and I'd like to think a half decent one, I like to work with other good decent electricians. That is my main concern.


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## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

I agree with Amish as he stated above, I'd like add my experiences.

I'm over 50 and have worked since 14 at many differant kinds of jobs. Never been a union member.

I know plenty off union brothers that are every bit as good or better then non union brothers. That works both ways. There are good and bad in both.

My situation currently is unique in that before I was hired by this company there were 6 unions here. 
Granted that is almost 20 yrs ago. There were 100 or more employees here then also.

Over the yrs departments were done away with, or relocated, people retire and thier positions were not restaffed to the point now that only 3 unions remain with 23 workers, that includes subs, full timers, foremen, managers, office staff. 

Having said that, my department was also another full union until right before I was hired, like 1 yr before. When it was a union shop it had 2 people, a foreman and a journeyman. Both joined a union and worked here until they retired. The foreman retired 1 yr before I was hired. His replacement didn't want to join, _1/2 the membership of a union agrees not join they don't have too?_ Now it was 1 union guy and 1 non-union guy. 6 months after foreman retires the journeyman retires. That is when I was hired and had the choice of either joining or not., I chose not to join the union. We remained a 2 man shop until 10 yrs ago when a 3rd man was hired. Situation is same to present time.

To sum this all up, I work with these 3 differant unions everynight, days, whatever it takes to get the job done. I have not had even 1 serious confrontation with any of them. Not to say we don't get in each others face from time to time, that happens in both union and non union.

Long winded huh.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm both :lol:


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## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

I too agree with Amish. The whole us vs. them mentality leads to disaster for everyone. I've never worked union, but have worked along side of a lot of you union brothers and sisters. I honestly have to say we are all the same.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Yup, Local 932.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Is anti union a choice? :whistling2: :laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Non-union.

But not because I have any love for the "merit" shops.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)




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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Is anti union a choice? :whistling2: :laughing:


Yes!.........:thumbup::laughing:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> I am an electrician and I'd like to think a half decent one, I like to work with other good decent electricians. That is my main concern.


 Bottom line is everyone deserves to earn a decent living, whether union or non-union.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

360max said:


> Bottom line is everyone deserves to earn a decent living, whether union or non-union.


Yup. But not everyone is entitled to one. That's where things go south.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 11726





Wage Confidentiality Agreement :laughing::laughing::laughing: talk about the wolf watching the sheep


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> Bottom line is everyone deserves to earn a decent living, whether union or non-union.


 
I disagree, screw the employees, if they cannot make it off the scraps I throw them. TOUGH LUCK, get a 2nd or 3rd job.:001_huh::blink::no:


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## Shazbo inc. (Jan 11, 2012)

Nothing is better than having one guy that apeaks alittle english and tells the van full of romex jockeys what to do. All that for caah under the table.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> I disagree, screw the employees, if they cannot make it off the scraps I throw them. TOUGH LUCK, get a 2nd or 3rd job.:001_huh::blink::no:


....a moderator Troll :blink::laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 11726


Treat and pay your employees well and you won't be.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

non union for about 15 years then union for around 15 years back to non union again.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> non union for about 15 years then union for around 15 years back to non union again.


 
Last month you said you were both.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Last month you said you were both.


 I did not renew my ticket.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Shazbo inc. said:


> Nothing is better than having one guy that apeaks alittle english and tells the van full of romex jockeys what to do. All that for caah under the table.


Well said! :no: :laughing:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Local 191:thumbup:
I will be Union till the day I die.


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

.....


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> Bottom line is everyone deserves to earn a decent living, whether union or non-union.


 I'll modify that a bit: Everyone deserves the _opportunity_ to earn a decent living. If they screw it up from there, then that falls on them.

My only gripe with unions, which appears to be a gripe shared by many capable union guys, is that the locals will stick their neck out for losers and the whole organization takes a hit as a result.

-John


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

jordan_paul said:


> I worked non-nion for about a year and a half and loved it, I learned alot and the money was pretty good. I joined the union and got thrown on a big job where I didn't learn anything. I was on that job for 8 months working with the laziest, most ignorant people I've ever met until the job was finished and we got our layoff notices. I was sworn in about 5 months in but at this point I was going to quit the union to go nonunion, but I had to take another call until I found a non-union company who would take me knowing I worked union for 8 months.
> 
> Luckily the call I took was for a small service shop who does everything, and far enough from the union hall we don't have to out up with any union BS. 4 out of the 5 JW's have been there for over 22 years, we have a dedicated motor shop, the owners take care of you etc. Now I actually get to learn again, I get the great union wage and bennies without any BS, and I get to use whatever tools I want to without some asshole telling me it's not on the tool list. I've been there 6 months now and the owners told me I have a life time job there as long as I keep up what I'm doing now.


Sorry to hear about your experience, I suppose it depends on what local you are in. I worked non-union for a small family shop before getting into the local here about 8 years back and I have worked with great guys on both sides. Most of the people I have worked with while being in the union are well trained and very knowledgeable electricians and are not lazy like a lot of people think. That being said there are of course some bad apples who usually don't last very long at most shops and who spend their time riding the books. I find these guys are the ones that spend the most time complaining and wrecking the unions reputation. So far being in the union has been a very positive experience for me, and I'll be union till I retire! You just can't get the benefits and pay comparable to the union anywhere around here. There are however a lot more politics when you are working for a large union outfit, that side of it I could do without.


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## T Healy (Aug 27, 2011)

Union


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wireman191 said:


> Local 191:thumbup:
> I will be Union till the day I die.


 
Any plans for this in the future?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

brian john said:


> Any plans for this in the future?


...are you planning on turning away all union work and just working for non-union shops?


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## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

jordan_paul said:


> I worked non-nion for about a year and a half and loved it, I learned alot and the money was pretty good. I joined the union and got thrown on a big job where I didn't learn anything. I was on that job for 8 months working with the laziest, most ignorant people I've ever met until the job was finished and we got our layoff notices. I was sworn in about 5 months in but at this point I was going to quit the union to go nonunion, but I had to take another call until I found a non-union company who would take me knowing I worked union for 8 months.
> 
> Luckily the call I took was for a small service shop who does everything, and far enough from the union hall we don't have to out up with any union BS. 4 out of the 5 JW's have been there for over 22 years, we have a dedicated motor shop, the owners take care of you etc. Now I actually get to learn again, I get the great union wage and bennies without any BS, and I get to use whatever tools I want to without some asshole telling me it's not on the tool list. I've been there 6 months now and the owners told me I have a life time job there as long as I keep up what I'm doing now.


This coming from the guy who if was fired for not holding that piece of cardboard would have probably went straight to the hall and wanted their support. Only want to be union when its convenient for you. I've been in since I was 18 years old, been on huge jobs, and I don't know what kind of local you belong to but around here its pretty simple. The slackers and loads will ALWAYS be the first laid off or will just be outright refused when they take a call. 
Apprentices like you are why I think all apprentices should rotate contractors, or it just breeds suck asses. Ones who don't turn into the owners little lapdogs,...oh Mr owner, they came back 5 minutes late from lunch, he asked me to hold a piece of cardboard.
If you have an issue, go to the stew.
I, like you, work for a very small outfit, with one of the best guys I've ever worked for. He treats me well because I give an honest 8 every day and do things right, and he knows it. He gives me the prints, and leaves me be to get the job done.
I also just ran a job that required a handful of two weekers off the bench, one of them being notorious for causing problems and is often refused before even being hired.
I treated him with respect, let him do his job, didn't bird dog him and just let him do his thing. He turned out to be one of the hardest working , smartest electricians I'd ever had the pleasure of working with, and I told him that , and the owner of the company.
I guess you haven't been around long enough to to see that big jobs are always gonna bring guys out of the woodwork, most good, some bad just like with anything and everything else.
Earn your respect by doing things right, being a good worker, and treating people who may end up working for you in the future with respect. Not by bashing the union and running to the owner every chance you get to seek his approval.


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## YOUNG RON B (Feb 14, 2010)

what is the best way to drop out of the Union legally as an employer of zero electricians from the hall. (I'm self employed five years and can't imagine ever going back to that ****....getting to a job by 7am, dealing with large job politics...etc.)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ...are you planning on turning away all union work and just working for non-union shops?


It was sarcasm based on his saying he was “till the day I day”

ANY PLANS ON DYING,


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

360max said:


> ...are you planning on turning away all union work and just working for non-union shops?


I do a fair amount for both open shop and union. In this town often the electricians are the only union shop on a job, though large projects you may find a union mechanical shop. I think our market share of commercial is 30% and residential 0%. Which I find crazy, typically in this area commercial service rates are lower than residential service rates.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

non-union here


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## Amelco (Feb 5, 2012)

I am Union Electrician. I would like to know if any of the non-union guys ever found that their wage and benefit package was higher.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Amelco said:


> I am Union Electrician. I would like to know if any of the non-union guys ever found that their wage and benefit package was higher.


The last company I worked at prior to joining the union had better wages and bennies for me and other foremen and supervisors. The base electrician not so good, one reason I left.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

YOUNG RON B said:


> what is the best way to drop out of the Union legally as an employer of zero electricians from the hall. (I'm self employed five years and can't imagine ever going back to that ****....getting to a job by 7am, dealing with large job politics...etc.)


 Drop your ticket and withdraw the BA can tell you what to do. They will song and dance you but they cannot force you to stay in the union.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*lazy*

I've tried several union guys and here is my observation. They are lazy, slow, full of themselve's, arrogant, demanding, etc.... Neither one lasted more than 2 weeks....


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Cletis said:


> I've tried several union guys and here is my observation. They are lazy, slow, full of themselve's, arrogant, demanding, etc.... Neither one lasted more than 2 weeks....


Hey if you're into it big guy... :whistling2:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Hey if you're into it big guy... :whistling2:


:laughing::laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I've tried several union guys and here is my observation. They are lazy, slow, full of themselve's, arrogant, demanding, etc.... Neither one lasted more than 2 weeks....


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Cletis said:


> I've tried several union guys and here is my observation. They are lazy, slow, full of themselve's, arrogant, demanding, etc.... Neither one lasted more than 2 weeks....


Hogwash


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Hey if you're into it big guy... :whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Hogwash


 
Using such a broad statement (Cletis's) to brand any one group is wrong. Though I have seen union men working open shop (in the 70's) and most seemed to have an attitude. They had been out of work 12 months or more and felt like they had lowered themselves to work open shop.


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## Sparky3 (Nov 21, 2010)

jordan_paul said:


> I worked non-nion for about a year and a half and loved it, I learned alot and the money was pretty good. I joined the union and got thrown on a big job where I didn't learn anything. I was on that job for 8 months working with the laziest, most ignorant people I've ever met until the job was finished and we got our layoff notices. I was sworn in about 5 months in but at this point I was going to quit the union to go nonunion, but I had to take another call until I found a non-union company who would take me knowing I worked union for 8 months.
> 
> Luckily the call I took was for a small service shop who does everything, and far enough from the union hall we don't have to out up with any union BS. 4 out of the 5 JW's have been there for over 22 years, we have a dedicated motor shop, the owners take care of you etc. Now I actually get to learn again, I get the great union wage and bennies without any BS, and I get to use whatever tools I want to without some asshole telling me it's not on the tool list. I've been there 6 months now and the owners told me I have a life time job there as long as I keep up what I'm doing now.


When you are done bashing the union go back and thank them for that " great union wage" you are enjoying. Who do you think fights for the going rate in your area?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Sparky3 said:


> When you are done bashing the union go back and thank them for that " great union wage" you are enjoying. Who do you think fights for the going rate in your area?


I charge more than the "going rate" and I'm not union. The union doesn't set my cost structure, why would I let them set my rate?


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## jordan_paul (Oct 4, 2011)

Sparky3 said:


> When you are done bashing the union go back and thank them for that " great union wage" you are enjoying. Who do you think fights for the going rate in your area?


Nobody anymore. We traded our right to strike and be locked out for a guarenteed wage increase of 2% a year. This happened about 15 years ago I was told. My direct journeyman's dad is in the IO, before that he was the BA for our local, and he was the one who brought it in. Strangely enough my JW shares the same opinion as I do. Sometimes we work for straight time, take our lunches outside the hours of "12:00pm -1:00pm," sometimes skip our breaks work Saturdays for 1.5x. It's called being a company man, you give a little you get a little. Most union guys just take, take, take and expect everything under the sun.



di11igaf said:


> This coming from the guy who if was fired for not holding that piece of cardboard would have probably went straight to the hall and wanted their support. Only want to be union when its convenient for you. .


Nope, I would have went straight to the Ministry of Labour. I'd skip the union all together because I want results.



di11igaf said:


> I've been in since I was 18 years old, been on huge jobs, and I don't know what kind of local you belong to but around here its pretty simple. The slackers and loads will ALWAYS be the first laid off or will just be outright refused when they take a call. .


I've been in since I was 19, but when that slacker is the foremans buddy then nothing will get done. And in our local an employer can't outright refuse a new hire from the hall. They have to take them for a minimum of two weeks.



di11igaf said:


> Apprentices like you are why I think all apprentices should rotate contractors, or it just breeds suck asses. Ones who don't turn into the owners little lapdogs,...oh Mr owner, they came back 5 minutes late from lunch, he asked me to hold a piece of cardboard.
> If you have an issue, go to the stew..


I don't care what the other guys do, and I ain't no snitch. If they want to sit in the van all day it's not for me to tell the owner what's going on. We don't have a steward at our company eaither. I will ask the owner a question of my saftey though, because saftey is also my responsibility.



di11igaf said:


> I, like you, work for a very small outfit, with one of the best guys I've ever worked for. He treats me well because I give an honest 8 every day and do things right, and he knows it. He gives me the prints, and leaves me be to get the job done.
> I also just ran a job that required a handful of two weekers off the bench, one of them being notorious for causing problems and is often refused before even being hired.
> I treated him with respect, let him do his job, didn't bird dog him and just let him do his thing. He turned out to be one of the hardest working , smartest electricians I'd ever had the pleasure of working with, and I told him that , and the owner of the company.
> I guess you haven't been around long enough to to see that big jobs are always gonna bring guys out of the woodwork, most good, some bad just like with anything and everything else.
> Earn your respect by doing things right, being a good worker, and treating people who may end up working for you in the future with respect. Not by bashing the union and running to the owner every chance you get to seek his approval.


We don't do big enough jobs to hire guys from the hall. A big job for us is 3 days long for two guys. In a pinch, they will name hire a guy they know, when his use has been served he gets laid off. If I wasn't going to open my own company one day I would truely want to work here until I retired. And I bash the union because so far I haven't seen them do anything to not deserve it. They protect the bottom of the barrel guys who shouldn't even be working in the trade. They stage protests for other unions or locals who deserve to be shut down or run out of work. (Our local sent a bus load of people down to EMD in London to protest the new owners for cutting wages, yet they didn't ask why they re being cut). They force their opinion on everyone regarding politics and they take in millions of dollars of our money to do all this. The executives have their buddies who get to go on the golf trips or the conferences to party for a weekend. They charge a bunch of stuff to the hall funds that are unnecessary just beacuse they don't want to pay for it themselves (like lying and throwing extra miles on their expense reports to go to their cottage). I just see no reason to eat up everything the union says, and bash them because they deserve it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Sparky3 said:


> When you are done bashing the union go back and thank them for that " great union wage" you are enjoying. Who do you think fights for the going rate in your area?


 
Seriously, this is an old tired argument with a certain amount of validity, but it carries little weight as open shop members see it as the first signs of senility in the poster.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

jordan_paul said:


> Nobody anymore. We traded our right to strike and be locked out for a guarenteed wage increase of 2% a year. This happened about 15 years ago I was told. My direct journeyman's dad is in the IO, before that he was the BA for our local, and he was the one who brought it in. Strangely enough my JW shares the same opinion as I do. Sometimes we work for straight time, take our lunches outside the hours of "12:00pm -1:00pm," sometimes skip our breaks work Saturdays for 1.5x. It's called being a company man, you give a little you get a little. Most union guys just take, take, take and expect everything under the sun.
> 
> Nope, I would have went straight to the Ministry of Labour. I'd skip the union all together because I want results.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity what local are you in?


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

My first 10 yrs I worked non-union, the next 30 yrs I worked union.
I believe in union and my union done me good.
Working both I can tell you this they both have "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly."


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I spent 26 years working in the field as a Non- Union commercial electrician

Took a job as an inspector and am in a union ( not the IBEW - conflict)

Go figure


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

manchestersparky 
Professional Nit Picker


Professional Nit Picker is that another name for inspector?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I did not renew my ticket.


How did your union employees take it. What are you really. I have tried to give you the benefit of doubt. But I can now see the irregularities in your statements. 



jordan_paul said:


> I've been there 6 months now and the owners told me I have a life time job there as long as I keep up what I'm doing now.


If you believe that, you are in for a shock. How old are you? You must be a kid making statements like this.
They would fire you faster than a cat can lick his ass.



Cletis said:


> I've tried several union guys and here is my observation. They are lazy, slow, full of themselve's, arrogant, demanding, etc.... Neither one lasted more than 2 weeks....


Yea, right. I bet you do not even know who the local is in your area. :whistling2:



brian john said:


> They had been out of work 12 months or more and felt like they had lowered themselves to work open shop.


They did lower themselves and it was apparent they were embarrassed too. Embarrassment can come in many different forms. 
It would be like you having to go to the soup kitchen for lunch. You would be embarrassed too!


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> How did your union employees take it. What are you really. I have tried to give you the benefit of doubt. But I can now see the irregularities in your statements.
> !


 what irregularities? If you followed my posting you would know that I operated union then opened a non union service company hired non union guys and now i have dropped my ticket. The simple reason is the union has absolutely nothing to offer me.


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> I did not renew my ticket.


Are you sure they did not give you the boot.


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> what irregularities? If you followed my posting you would know that I operated union then opened a non union service company hired non union guys and now i have dropped my ticket. The simple reason is the union has absolutely nothing to offer me.


What about 15 yrs worth of Nebf pension


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> They did lower themselves and it was apparent they were embarrassed too. Embarrassment can come in many different forms.
> It would be like you having to go to the soup kitchen for lunch. You would be embarrassed too!


 
John,
1st I have worked in soup kitchens.
2nd I WOULD NOT be embarassed unless I had rubbed others noses in the open shop mess some union men spew.

I would work there keep my mouth shut, take a check and head back union as soon as they had work. I would not spit on the hand that was feeding me. That is IMO a sign of a low life.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> what irregularities? If you followed my posting you would know that I operated union then opened a non union service company hired non union guys and now i have dropped my ticket. The simple reason is the union has absolutely nothing to offer me.


 
It is not about the owner it is about offering your men the same nice package of pay, benefits and retirements you once enjoyed.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> It is not about the owner it is about offering your men the same nice package of pay, benefits and retirements you once enjoyed.


 I give them better pay and benefits *and* they dont have to pay dues.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I give them better pay and benefits *and* they dont have to pay dues.


 
OK pull my other ear.....:no:

You will never sell me that line of malarkey.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> OK pull my other ear.....:no:
> 
> You will never sell me that line of malarkey.


 you sell it quite often .:whistling2:

You have no idea what the union residential scale is in this local .It is not hard to beat.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> you sell it quite often .:whistling2:
> 
> You have no idea what the union residential scale is in this local .It is not hard to beat.


 

Ok, quit beating around the bush. What do you pay your guys?


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

Jefferson City has a good scale $30.00 plus


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

ptcrtn said:


> Jefferson City has a good scale $30.00 plus


 Is that inside wireman?


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

I believe it is

*257 Jefferson City, MO
(573) 635-2133 
*

*Scale = $30.18*


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

ptcrtn said:


> I believe it is
> 
> *257 Jefferson City, MO*
> *(573) 635-2133 *
> ...


residential is probably about 1/2 that the last agreement it was 11.00/hr


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> residential is probably about 1/2 that the last agreement it was 11.00/hr


 
Probalby? How do you match pay with Probably?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Probalby? How do you match pay with Probably?


 I don't have this years wage sheet because we are no longer affiliated with the union so i cannot give a to the penny wage. Based on previous wage of $11.00/hr and a %3 increase which is the usual contract amount i am abovet he scale.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> I don't have this years wage sheet because we are no longer affiliated with the union so i cannot give a to the penny wage. Based on previous wage of $11.00/hr and a %3 increase which is the usual contract amount i am abovet he scale.


 
Wow, residential scale is way below what I would think would be a living standard for your area. Here residential is about 2/3's of "A" scale.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

brian john said:


> Wow, residential scale is way below what I would think would be a living standard for your area. Here residential is about 2/3's of "A" scale.


 residential scale is an afterthought here. Residential guys don't even have the retirement annuity. This is an area that the local really dropped the ball is in the residential side.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

"I give them better pay and benefits *and* they dont have to pay dues."

I'm not picking on Rewire. I would just like to point out that his claim ... well, it's worth a discussion of it's own.

It's foolish to think all employers are alike, or that all unions are alike. It's also unfortunate that the two are assumed to be hostile to each other.

There's no denying that hurt feelings on the shop floor have been the driving force behind many organizing drives. There's more to unions than that - or, there should be.

Let us, for the sake of discussion, assume a saintly employer with an excellent training program. Let's assume great pay, benefits, and conditions. That's all wonderful, as long as you're working for the saint. It's also wonderful if the Saint never needs to hire anyone.

That's not real life, though. Even in heavy industry the days of 'lifetime employment' are long gone. Heck, even if you never change jobs, you'll change employers as mergers, acquisitions, etc., happen.

The construction trades are quite different. Here, it's a fact of life that guys follow the work from job to job, often hopping back and forth between the same few employers. "Competitive bidding" might award the job to a different contractor, but he'll be drawing from the same population as everyone else; so the same guy winds up pulling the wire. He just puts on a different t-shirt.

"Unions" could, if they desired, accent the positive. That is, that they administer the benefits (no more 'probationary period' for health coverage) and certify the training (so employers would have some idea of the qualifications). A guy would leave a job with more than his **** in his hand.

I expect that even Rewire would breath a sigh of relief, if only he could be sure the 'electrician card' meant something, and he didn't have to do any more about benefits than to write the check.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> residential scale is an afterthought here. Residential guys don't even have the retirement annuity. This is an area that the local really dropped the ball is in the residential side.


 
I think you will find the residential side is pretty much the neglected step child of most locals.

This is a market the IBEW and NECA contractors should really try and tackle.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

ptcrtn said:


> manchestersparky
> Professional Nit Picker
> 
> 
> Professional Nit Picker is that another name for inspector?


:thumbsup: yep sure is - your the first one to comment on that.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

brian john said:


> Wow, residential scale is way below what I would think would be a living standard for your area. Here residential is about 2/3's of "A" scale.


I've been told by some guys in 26 that the R card guys don't go to school.
Any truth to this ?? The commercial companies are hiring R cards as their cheaper


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I've been told by some guys in 26 that the R card guys don't go to school.
> Any truth to this ?? The commercial companies are hiring R cards as their cheaper


 
They do have classes but it is either 2 or 3 years. There are many excellent men working in the "R" program, doing commercial work.


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## green light (Oct 12, 2011)

Out here the resi card guys have to do a 2 year apprenticeship, and they may not work on anything other than resi, unless all they are doing is "handling material". I think pay right now is about 2/3 full scale. Ive never understood why a person would settle for anything less than a full ticket.:001_huh: That being said Ive known some guys who wanted to get into the full program, but there was no room for them, so they settled for resi.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

green light said:


> Out here the resi card guys have to do a 2 year apprenticeship, and they may not work on anything other than resi, unless all they are doing is "handling material". I think pay right now is about 2/3 full scale. Ive never understood why a person would settle for anything less than a full ticket.:001_huh: That being said Ive known some guys who wanted to get into the full program, but there was no room for them, so they settled for resi.


Many can not get in the "A". for a variety of reason and many of these men are excellent workers/electricians.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Our "B" rate is 50% of "A" with full pension and a small annuity. Years ago they divided the health care plan so that anyone making less than journeymen rate has reduced health care. Retirees, apprentices and "b" guys are on that plan, along with anyone that is paying into there own because they are out of work for so long. They don't take anyone in on a "B" permit (min. 5 years experience like I got in 24 years ago) without doing some apprenticeship. Without experience you would do 3 years "B" apprenticeship. After 5 years you are eligible to test and change over to "A". Then you do another 3 years (the last 3 of 5) of "A" apprenticeship.

Going the "B" route is a foot in the door for many and I always believed in the system. I always thought they should make everyone go through the "B". They shut down the "B" system and now we have the "CE" and "CW" system. I am not sure how it all works now. I think "CE" is "B" with benefits and can only work on residential/small works. "CW" is the former JIT (maybe the "white ticket holder" before that?). Can work large jobs no real book or benefits. I don’t know if we have any "CW".

The "B" rate here was always comparable to working non-union. With any non-union company you could make a little above or below "B" rate. And any union company could always pay more than "B" rate. I was "B" for 5 years and made "B" Forman’s rate for three. I was working for an industrial contractor non-union and got a three dollar an hour raise when I got in to do residential service calls. I remember my old boss rolling his eyes and telling me he could never pay me $11.00 dollars an hour (to work in plants) but through the union I could get that to wire houses. Go figure.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

So, who's the other compulsive dues payer in a non-right to work state?


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## cccp sparky (Nov 5, 2011)

I am a paying the dues... but it is not the sweat, because CCCP is paying the $5000 in dues, but making $78000. Not many the nonunion electrician can saying this. Because they are paying the $200 a week cash to a HealthNet for insurances.


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