# How exactly does the union operate?



## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do. 
I guess my question is. If I were to get laid off, would the union be a decent choice? I have mainly done industrial construction; electrical, pipe fighting, and iron working for the last seven years. With the exception of 1 year that was commercial service work. Honestly I just want to continue with industrial construction. But jobs seem to be few and far between down here. To summarize would I be able to continue with the work Ive been doing, if I go union?


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

That question must be accompanied with the pay and benefits comparisons between the union and your current job, work outlook on the union side, and your willingness to be someone's apprentice for 5 years. Plus other things I haven't thought of yet.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> That question must be accompanied with the pay and benefits comparisons between the union and your current job, work outlook on the union side, and your willingness to be someone's apprentice for 5 years. Plus other things I haven't thought of yet.


Already got my jorneyman licence a year and a half ago.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

If you have enough skill and experience you can take a test and not have to go to the apprenticeship. This is a very common way I've seen people join the union. You have to research this well and may have to brush up on whatever criteria the local union hall will test you on.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> Already got my jorneyman licence a year and a half ago.


Does the union recognize it? In Illinois you could have proof of being the god of all electrical knowledge and it would mean a lot less than you would think to the union. They like to train their own. If Alabama is a RTW state it could mean a lot though.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do.
> I guess my question is. If I were to get laid off, would the union be a decent choice? I have mainly done industrial construction; electrical,* pipe fighting, *and iron working for the last seven years. With the exception of 1 year that was commercial service work. Honestly I just want to continue with industrial construction. But jobs seem to be few and far between down here. To summarize would I be able to continue with the work Ive been doing, if I go union?


I wouldn't list that on my resume.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

butcher733 said:


> Does the union recognize it? In Illinois you could have proof of being the god of all electrical knowledge and it would mean a lot less than you would think to the union. They like to train their own. If Alabama is a RTW state it could mean a lot though.


Alabama is RTW. 
I took a test for them about 9 months ago. Then I hired on with my current company and never had the time to get the rest of my paperwork down to them.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

uconduit said:


> I wouldn't list that on my resume.


They seemed to have liked that last time I talked with them. I dont know if that would affwct pay or not. Im honestly not sure how the pay scale works or what it is. The "signing the books" part has me confused too.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

the pay scale varies with level of apprenticeship experience and it is a percentage of the journeyman rate. Of course as a journeyman you would get 100% of the journeyman rate. That rate is subject to union dues, and you may have to pay a certain percentage of your wages to the union. 5-8%, maybe more if there are a lot of freeloaders who refuse to pay dues. I don't know the specifics of over there or of RTW states.

are there a lot of union jobs in the area? check the dispatch procedures (that should tell you about how signing the books works locally), check the wage rates, that will tell you base pay, benefits and deductions.

Pipe-fitting will give you welding skills that can help you get welding jobs that can be quite lucrative. In some areas union residential construction doesn't exist at all, so having industrial experiance can only help in those areas.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

bigpapa08 said:


> So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do.


Here is the difference, in your open shop, they will lay off the third of you that are the biggest slackers. In the Union they lay off the bottom third in senority.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Zog said:


> Here is the difference, in your open shop, they will lay off the third of you that are the biggest slackers. In the Union they lay off the bottom third in senority.


Our cba allows layoffs at the contractors discretion regardless of any seniority. You can guess who stays.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

uconduit said:


> the pay scale varies with level of apprenticeship experience and it is a percentage of the journeyman rate. Of course as a journeyman you would get 100% of the journeyman rate. That rate is subject to union dues, and you may have to pay a certain percentage of your wages to the union. 5-8%, maybe more if there are a lot of freeloaders who refuse to pay dues. I don't know the specifics of over there or of RTW states.
> 
> are there a lot of union jobs in the area? check the dispatch procedures (that should tell you about how signing the books works locally), check the wage rates, that will tell you base pay, benefits and deductions.
> 
> Pipe-fitting will give you welding skills that can help you get welding jobs that can be quite lucrative. In some areas union residential construction doesn't exist at all, so having industrial experiance can only help in those areas.


That was very helpful. Thank you.

The welding knowledge has been extremely helpful in my pay at my last job and my current one. Im starting to think stainless welders are hard ro come by.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Most people I know who back doored in wish they would've just done the apprenticeship. For a multitude of reasons


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Most people I know who back doored in wish they would've just done the apprenticeship. For a multitude of reasons


Yup.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

bigpapa08 said:


> So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do.
> I guess my question is. If I were to get laid off, would the union be a decent choice? I have mainly done industrial construction; electrical, pipe fighting, and iron working for the last seven years. With the exception of 1 year that was commercial service work. Honestly I just want to continue with industrial construction. But jobs seem to be few and far between down here. To summarize would I be able to continue with the work Ive been doing, if I go union?


Wow at the responses you got! Its been a couple of years since I last worked in Alabama but the scale is probably around $25hr on check $4-$5 H&W and a couple dollars an hour retirement ,heck they may even have a dollar or two an hour going into an IRA. Most working dues run between 1%-4% of your gross.Now you will also pay your union dues for a hefty $30-$40 a month which also some of which goes towards another retirement by IO. Most halls allow workers who show proof of work hours(8000) and GED/HS diploma and 1 year of Algebra to test.Good luck with what ever direction you take.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Most people I know who back doored in wish they would've just done the apprenticeship. For a multitude of reasons


Why is that?


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

Brother Noah said:


> Wow at the responses you got! Its been a couple of years since I last worked in Alabama but the scale is probably around $25hr on check $4-$5 H&W and a couple dollars an hour retirement ,heck they may even have a dollar or two an hour going into an IRA. Most working dues run between 1%-4% of your gross.Now you will also pay your union dues for a hefty $30-$40 a month which also some of which goes towards another retirement by IO. Most halls allow workers who show proof of work hours(8000) and GED/HS diploma and 1 year of Algebra to test.Good luck with what ever direction you take.


Thank you for the info. I really appreciate it.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> Why is that?


While you can learn how to be an excellent electrician both inside and outside a union, the union apprenticeship program can make you an excellent union member. Being a member is more than just the work and it is difficult to learn in real time. Being part of a class of apprentices provides you with the contacts and common experience that will go with you throughout your time in the local ( much like going to college is less about learning subjects and more about making contacts and learning social mores ).


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Zog said:


> Here is the difference, in your open shop, they will lay off the third of you that are the biggest slackers. In the Union they lay off the bottom third in senority.


While *I* try to layoff my crews last in first out there is no reason why the contractor cannot lay off whoever they want, whenever they want. The only restrictions we have are special circumstances - steward must make it to the end of the job, a percentage of the remaining workforce must be over fifty, things like that.


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

eejack said:


> While you can learn how to be an excellent electrician both inside and outside a union, the union apprenticeship program can make you an excellent union member. Being a member is more than just the work and it is difficult to learn in real time. Being part of a class of apprentices provides you with the contacts and common experience that will go with you throughout your time in the local ( much like going to college is less about learning subjects and more about making contacts and learning social mores ).


That is understandable. It does make sense in a way. Kind of like a fraternity, to continue your college example.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> That is understandable. It does make sense in a way. Kind of like a fraternity, to continue your college example.


On top of that you probably wouldn't be put on the A scale


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> On top of that you probably wouldn't be put on the A scale


And now you have lost me again.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> And now you have lost me again.


At least in my state, those who get back doored in with jman status usually get put into the ce/cw program which is a different pay scale than an a "A" inside wireman. Different as in less. And you can expect not be well favored by the A guys


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Zog said:


> Here is the difference, in your open shop, they will lay off the third of you that are the biggest slackers. In the Union they lay off the bottom third in senority.


Says who?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

The Local is 136, scale for JW (A) class is $23.60 an hour. Contractor pays $5.00 an hour to H&W (medical) pension is 10% of gross and 3% of gross to NEBF, assessements are 3% of gross, no vacation or annuity. Book 1 has 150 JW's on the bench out of work, Book 2 has 130 travels signed on.
Phone number 205-833-0909, give them a call to see if they are taking on any one.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Most people I know who back doored in wish they would've just done the apprenticeship. For a multitude of reasons


Into my second year of apprenticeship I had been sold on the union by another union apprentice. But the union wouldn't accept me, they had too many apprentices not working and couldn't take on more.

So I finished my apprenticeship non-union and it worked out well. Unionized here is a 5 year program and many guys take 6 years because of layoffs and what not. I finished in almost exactly 4 years. 

I'm not against the union by any means.. but just saying I couldn't get in and I wanted to.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Most people I know who back doored in wish they would've just done the apprenticeship. For a multitude of reasons





bigpapa08 said:


> Why is that?





eejack said:


> While you can learn how to be an excellent electrician both inside and outside a union, the union apprenticeship program can make you an excellent union member. Being a member is more than just the work and it is difficult to learn in real time. Being part of a class of apprentices provides you with the contacts and common experience that will go with you throughout your time in the local ( much like going to college is less about learning subjects and more about making contacts and learning social mores ).


In other words you need to learn how to f the dog correctly, learn how not to work your way out of a job and be brainwashed into thinking anyone outside the union is incompetent.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> In other words you need to learn how to f the dog correctly, learn how not to work your way out of a job and be brainwashed into thinking anyone outside the union is incompetent.


I guess it was inevitable a pleasant and courteous discussion would be visited by one of you fine folks. Glad you can stop in.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Care to _explain _it then eejack?.....




> Being part of a class of apprentices provides you with the contacts and common experience that will go with you throughout your time in the local


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I guess it was inevitable a pleasant and courteous discussion would be visited by one of you fine folks. Glad you can stop in.


Well feel free to explain the the 'social mores' you mentioned that must be learned.

Am I wrong in saying one of them would be learning the meaning of shop rocket?


If the OP wants to joining the union, that is great, I wish him luck with that. For many it is a good deal, and I do mean that.

But lets not try to hide some of the truths that go with it as well.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> In other words you need to learn how to f the dog correctly, learn how not to work your way out of a job and be brainwashed into thinking anyone outside the union is incompetent.


Funny , but true ! I was a third or fourth year apprentice working for an open shop on a brand new elementary school . I was working on one of the electrical rooms from start to finish because the foreman had a lot of faith in my work . He would tell me what he wanted , and I did it . If I had a question I asked . One day , in cutting in a 112 KVA xfmr and the union tela/ data guy is standing in the entranceway to the room with his apprentice . He proceeds to tell the apprentice that for a non union shop , we really know what we're doing and that workmanship like this is rarely found from a non union contractor . I laughed and said thanks , I think ? The apprentice flat out told me that he's told in school , that non union can't hold a candle to union , lol ! I helped to dispel that rumor that day . Aside from getting a very good " electrical " education through the union apprenticeship , there's definitely a lot of teachings such as this that go on as well .


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> Funny , but true ! I was a third or fourth year apprentice working for an open shop on a brand new elementary school . I was working on one of the electrical rooms from start to finish because the foreman had a lot of faith in my work . He would tell me what he wanted , and I did it . If I had a question I asked . One day , in cutting in a 112 KVA xfmr and the union tela/ data guy is standing in the entranceway to the room with his apprentice . He proceeds to tell the apprentice that for a non union shop , we really know what we're doing and that workmanship like this is rarely found from a non union contractor . I laughed and said thanks , I think ? The apprentice flat out told me that he's told in school , that non union can't hold a candle to union , lol ! I helped to dispel that rumor that day . Aside from getting a very good " electrical " education through the union apprenticeship , there's definitely a lot of teachings such as this that go on as well .


Thank you for being honest

And I fully admit there are many open shops that suck, that have little training. 

I also fully admit that union traning can be excellent and that a union carreer can be a good one.

I just wish that more union members were honest about the unions bad points.

I find this funny and typical ...



eejack said:


> I guess it was inevitable a pleasant and courteous discussion would be visited by one of you fine folks. Glad you can stop in.


Apparently the only pleasant and courteous discussions are those that only praise the union.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So..... if the unions are so great...why are they dying? CS


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> So..... if the unions are so great...why are they dying? CS


Well let us non-union guys be honest as well.

There are many reasons for the unions decline and not all of them are the unions fault or doing.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

While this is true, their penchant for polluting their noobs with this one upmanship isn't going to help BBQ


CS


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Thank you for being honest
> 
> And I fully admit there are many open shops that suck, that have little training.
> 
> ...


Absolutely ! That mentality that " if it's not union , it's crap ! " is usually only adopted by the guys who are " born in " to the local . They've never worked for an open shop and tend to believe what they're told . The best union electricians I've worked with were organized in and all started out non union . You can pick these guys out almost immediately , lol ! They're the ones still wrestling with a piece of conduit when everyone else walks by them on their way to break or lunch . I think some guys are in denial about what actually goes on in the IBEW . A lot of great things , but some not so great too . I witnessed a crew on a large job basically dog it for weeks , knowing that the job would be forced to go to overtime to make the completion date , lol ! You can't make this stuff up ! The contractor takes a beating when stuff like that happens too !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> While this is true, their penchant for polluting their noobs with this one upmanship isn't going to help BBQ


For sure, but lets not put us in a position of only pointing out the unions flaws, that would not help either.

There are good things to be said for the unions, I really believe that the union shops are just as needed as merit shops. For the pendulum to swing either direction entirely would be (in my opinion) a very bad thing for us all.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> For sure, but lets not put us in a position of only pointing out the unions flaws, that would not help either.
> 
> There are good things to be said for the unions, I really believe that the union shops are just as needed as merit shops. For the pendulum to swing either direction entirely would be (in my opinion) a very bad thing for us all.



I respectfully submit your fair and balanced stance be the gold standard BBQ

CS


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I have seen in the unions apprenticeship books, big signs DANGER NOT INSTALLED BY IBEW. DANGER DANGER installed by RAT

This crap makes me sick. The union SAYS they want to get along, yet they brainwash their members into thinking they are better than everybody else. EEJACK, brother Noah, icefalkon are great examples of this. Until the union quit encouraging "seperation", that's exactly what they're gonna keep getting. Until they're gone.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The irony being, it was originally _intergration_......CS


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

It seems my knucle dragger buddies are correct. The animosity between the union and non union electrician s is ridiculous. I asked a question from the union electricians on the site. They were answering them for me, and now are getting trounced on for being union. I aint had a single one of them disrespect me at all. Ive worked with union and non union in both my other trades but electrical. Never have I seen this kind of bickering. At the current moment the only thing really keeping me from jumping into the union is the politics that go along with it. Frankly I enjoy working as a non union sparky. I get to be multicraft and am not limited in what I can do. However Im almost tempted to jump trades and go back to welding if things go south with my current company. Stainless welding and process piping pays WAY more than electrical does. And yes I am that good at it. Not to toot my own horn but, "toot toot". It just involves a lot more travel. I just enjoy doing electrical more than welding and iron working. 

BBQ you are definitely the voice of reason. Our trade needs more uniity in it. Thats on both the parts of the union and non union electricians. Divided we fall together we stand.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

bigpapa08 said:


> BBQ you are definitely the voice of reason. Our trade needs more uniity in it. Thats on both the parts of the union and non union electricians. Divided we fall together we stand.



BBQ would make a rather formidable arbitrator imho....CS


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

bigpapa08 said:


> It seems my knucle dragger buddies are correct. The animosity between the union and non union electrician s is ridiculous. I asked a question from the union electricians on the site. They were answering them for me, and now are getting trounced on for being union. I aint had a single one of them disrespect me at all. Ive worked with union and non union in both my other trades but electrical. Never have I seen this kind of bickering. At the current moment the only thing really keeping me from jumping into the union is the politics that go along with it. Frankly I enjoy working as a non union sparky. I get to be multicraft and am not limited in what I can do. However Im almost tempted to jump trades and go back to welding if things go south with my current company. Stainless welding and process piping pays WAY more than electrical does. And yes I am that good at it. Not to toot my own horn but, "toot toot". It just involves a lot more travel. I just enjoy doing electrical more than welding and iron working.
> 
> BBQ you are definitely the voice of reason. Our trade needs more uniity in it. Thats on both the parts of the union and non union electricians. Divided we fall together we stand.


Many on this site are nonunion contractors and or workers who show signs in their post of past abuse by those terrible unions. I have worked both sides and witness the lazy, sorry workers on both union and or nonunion jobs (depends on the humans nature) Not once in my apprenticeship was I taught that the nonunion did hack work, only that the nonunion contractors took a bigger percentage of the money from the job. We are all organized into the IBEW not one of us was ever born with a yellow ticket in their pocket! Some of us just are just fortunate to get an awesome education on the job and in the classroom, which is possible in the nonunion sector but not as likely.(in my experience) It seem to me much of what is bickered about is lies,myths,beliefs,past practice, or even tactics that are used by a select few that give the entire IBEW a bad view. Hey I was always taught to give the contractors a good days work, it is what they pay you for!!!
Now I travel the entire USA plying the trade in a couple different facets. I also weld, which has got me a job when there were no electrical jobs available.The IBEW offers journeymen classes that benefit the worker and or contractor such as Instrumentation,solar photovoltaic,electronics,welding. I believe that the more education and or training we receive that we are of an asset to our family's income, the IBEW's value and the contractors income. I love the IBEW and I think its great that in the USA we do have the option of working union or not(its our choice) so you make your own decision, if you need any help with the unions PM me and I will do what I can.Good luck to you in your path.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Many on this site are nonunion contractors and or workers who show signs in their post of past abuse by those terrible unions. I have worked both sides and witness the lazy, sorry workers on both union and or nonunion jobs (depends on the humans nature) Not once in my apprenticeship was I taught that the nonunion did hack work, only that the nonunion contractors took a bigger percentage of the money from the job. We are all organized into the IBEW not one of us was ever born with a yellow ticket in their pocket! Some of us just are just fortunate to get an awesome education on the job and in the classroom, which is possible in the nonunion sector but not as likely.(in my experience) It seem to me much of what is bickered about is lies,myths,beliefs,past practice, or even tactics that are used by a select few that give the entire IBEW a bad view. Hey I was always taught to give the contractors a good days work, it is what they pay you for!!!
> Now I travel the entire USA plying the trade in a couple different facets. I also weld, which has got me a job when there were no electrical jobs available.The IBEW offers journeymen classes that benefit the worker and or contractor such as Instrumentation,solar photovoltaic,electronics,welding. I believe that the more education and or training we receive that we are of an asset to our family's income, the IBEW's value and the contractors income. I love the IBEW and I think its great that in the USA we do have the option of working union or not(its our choice) so you make your own decision, if you need any help with the unions PM me and I will do what I can.Good luck to you in your path.


Have you ever actually posted anything on ET outside of the union forum ? If you got such an "awesome" education on the job why don't you share some of your accumulated knowledge with the rest of us plebeian electricians who obviously were never as "fortunate" as you?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Have you ever actually posted anything on ET outside of the union forum ? If you got such an "awesome" education on the job why don't you share some of your accumulated knowledge with the rest of us plebeian electricians who obviously were never as "fortunate" as you?


I dont know of any union posters who get involved in the code discussions


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Anyone who.s read the union forums might have a different take on this one

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Apparently the only pleasant and courteous discussions are those that only praise the union.


Not at all. While *I* disagree with many of your views, your viewpoint is part of an open and honest discussion about going union or going non union. If it were just a bunch of us IBEW folks the OP might not get the full monty on the subject.

Edit: I would think that it would be better all around for everyone if we could all be tad more pleasant when we have these discussions, myself included.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Have you ever actually posted anything on ET outside of the union forum ? If you got such an "awesome" education on the job why don't you share some of your accumulated knowledge with the rest of us plebeian electricians who obviously were never as "fortunate" as you?


What local are you out of ?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I dont know of any union posters who get involved in the code discussions


I honestly don't know much about the code - it does not apply to the work I do for the most part. I mean I know enough to have gotten my NJ electrical license but I really don't pay much attention to it.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

It's unfortunate that there's so much animosity from both sides (ibew & non-ibew).

I can understand some of the negativity from those who are not _part of the club_. I just don't understand why there is so much negativity from _those in the club_. 

I think so long as sparky's get turned off of unionizing, the membership will decrease, funds will drop and more non-unionized shops will be able to underbid unionized out of the market. Of course it's going to take a long time and be a real painful death, but it's heading that direction.

The IBEW should be working harder to be more inclusive and open and drop the attitude. THEY have to because THEY are the organized. 

Just saying... not trying to start or continue an argument, just giving my view and my interest to keep the union alive, as a non-union guy.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> What local are you out of ?


He post that and yet you continue?

Your not an electrician your just publicity rep for the ibew.

You don't belong on this forum.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

The objects of the international brotherhood of electrical workers are:


 *To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United states and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions.*
 To promote reasonable methods of work,
 *To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry*,
 To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration( if possible),
 To assist each other in sickness or distress,
 To secure employment,
 To reduce the hours of daily labor,
 To secure adequate pay for our work,
 To seek a higher and higher standard of living,
 To seek security for the individual,
 And by legal and proper means to elevate the moral, intellectual and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> It's unfortunate that there's so much animosity from both sides (ibew & non-ibew).
> 
> I can understand some of the negativity from those who are not _part of the club_. I just don't understand why there is so much negativity from _those in the club_.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, but it is brainwashed into them that they are better. My remark about "Danger, not IBEW installed" , is actually in their apprenticeship curriculum. They are being TAUGHT to look down to us.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, but it is brainwashed into them that they are better. My remark about "Danger, not IBEW installed" , is actually in their apprenticeship curriculum. They are being TAUGHT to look down to us.


You're nuts. 5 years of apprenticeship school I was never told to look down on non union. I learned to look down on non union after 10 years of cleaning up after the crap they instal.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> You're nuts. 5 years of apprenticeship school I was never told to look down on non union. I learned to look down on non union after 10 years of cleaning up after the crap they instal.


 
I have seen the training manual with my own two eyes. It said exactly what I said.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, but it is brainwashed into them that they are better. My remark about "Danger, not IBEW installed" , is actually in their apprenticeship curriculum. They are being TAUGHT to look down to us.


Yeah that kind of stuff has to end.

I mean, personally I could care less what a union or non-union guy thinks of me or my work. I know how I operate and my customers know my quality and I keep damn busy.

BUT, I like the union and believe in unions. My wife is a unionized nurse and I see the benefits. If they weren't unionized, they would be paid poorly and have horrible treatment. The union is EXTREMELY powerful, because all nurses are unionized here.

It would be exactly the same for unionized electricians.. if everyone was a member, the bargaining power would be HUGE. The pay would be fantastic, the benefits immense and the work would be safe and the stress would be low.

But so long as people opt out of the union, it's going to slide down that slippery slope to extinction. And isolating and degrading non-unionized "brothers" is not very inviting and will bring about it's own end.

I don't want that.. I need the union around to keep wages high, so I can keep charging high! Or maybe I should go become a nurse and make more money.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, but it is brainwashed into them that they are better. My remark about "Danger, not IBEW installed" , is actually in their apprenticeship curriculum. They are being TAUGHT to look down to us.


Absolutely ! An unnamed local around me ( not mine ) has on their home page " rat contractor wall of shame " if you see this company performing inferior work in your area please contact your union rep , lol ! As you can tell , the brainwashing hasn't worked on me . I got in too late and have that pesky habit of thinking for myself . This crap most certainly exists and the international needs to get their hands around it , if they want to continue to exist ! I'm not ashamed of being in the IBEW , but I wasn't ashamed to not be either . Great electricians do exist on both sides of the fence , and I have no animosity at all toward open shop guys , having been one myself . There's good and bad on both sides and it's a choice each of us can make .


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I dont know of any union posters who get involved in the code discussions


 I don't get into code questions because when I'm home I don't have a code book handy and I don't trust my memory to quote articles as good as other people on this forum. Plus usually by the time I get to a post the question has already been answered and i usually learn something.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> He post that and yet you continue?
> 
> Your not an electrician your just publicity rep for the ibew.
> 
> You don't belong on this forum.


I posted what local because if the poster were a union member he would understand the benefits of the union. Now please post that I am wrong but is this forum not under the banner of Union Topics? Now I have seen hard times searching for work as most electricians probably have but I also have enjoyed having H&W and I did not working nonunion, an awesome retirement and very little if any working nonunion and even several IRA's never working nonunion. The union puts on classes on a regular basis around the country to educate our journeyman so the contractors can be more competitive and we would have a self worth. I do appreciate your concern and or invitation to answer your complaint, thank you. You are correct that I love the IBEW and have no problem spreading the word on my own, not a company dime!But I like the way you think.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I have seen the training manual with my own two eyes. It said exactly what I said.


Post it here and prove me wrong. If its there ill admit thats wrong and i was wrong. Till then I think you just bought into anti union propaganda. I actually went through the apprenticeship and never did non union bashing happen from the instructors. We had too much other crap to pack into a week than bashing non union. Take off your tin foil hat.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

TGGT said:


> The objects of the international brotherhood of electrical workers are:
> 
> 
> *To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United states and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions.*
> ...


read this

~CS~


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Noah.... I just check back your posts going back to 2010 and there is not one post that has to do with code, how to do a job, what kind of material to use, or trouble shooting a job.. :blink::blink:

I know the Union schooling is intense and IMO the best teaching program out there...

But you do nothing to share your vast knowledge of being a IBEW worker and experience you gathered along the way...

Just curious... why are you geared only in one direction.. being a mouth piece for the IBEW??


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

union347sparky said:


> You're nuts. 5 years of apprenticeship school I was never told to look down on non union. I learned to look down on non union after 10 years of cleaning up after the crap they instal.


It goes both ways. I've repaired electrical installations done by union contractors. Hack knows no boundaries union or nonunion.:thumbup::laughing:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> read this
> 
> ~CS~


I know about salting. I kept the journal and reported to an individual and all that, but never followed through with the process.

My point about the objectives of the IBEW is that it has traveled far from those bullet points. Very, very far. I hear demeaning and hostile comments about non-union on a weekly, if not daily basis.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> Noah.... I just check back your posts going back to 2010 and there is not one post that has to do with code, how to do a job, what kind of material to use, or trouble shooting a job.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I know the Union schooling is intense and IMO the best teaching program out there...
> 
> ...


Wow I do appreciate your opportunity to expose? so whats the deal am I suppose to be asking you for a job and this is your way to determine if you wish to hire me or is your intent merely evil wanting only to look for weakness so you can post AHA see I told you so? Really we are all in the electrical industry no matter if its union or not, we have common goals and or ambitions. I love many things about the union and it appears there are things you enjoy about being what ever it is you do? Now if you are a small, maybe couple man shop wiring up houses or could be small commercial and you want to make as much as you can off your labors then it would benefit you to work your labors nonunion especially in Long Island NY, were you could gain more of a paycheck, even though as you as you assert your better than thou because you not only have to look up code questions in a book but you also post about it! WOW I had better take a step back and admire you? Really? Let us know how that works out in the long run. Well have fun with how ever you figure what it is you want to be?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> BBQ would make a rather formidable arbitrator imho....CS


~CS~ you should be a moderator. You bring clarity to an uneducated world. My vote is for CS, ET moderator.:thumbup::thumbup::laughing:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> It goes both ways. I've repaired electrical installations done by union contractors. Hack knows no boundaries union or nonunion.:thumbup::laughing:


You're not kidding ! Some of the worst Installations I've ever seen ( or fixed ) were originally done by IBEW members . Some of the best too , so it really comes down to the individual . Good and knowledgable electricians exist on both sides of the union divide , as do the ones that just collect a paycheck , lol !


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> even though as you as you assert your better than thou because you not only have to look up code questions in a book but you also post about it! WOW I had better take a step back and admire you? Really? Let us know how that works out in the long run. Well have fun with how ever you figure what it is you want to be?


Wow... nice spin and all I did was ask you a simple question and you can't give a simple answer with you saying you have to "admire me".. :blink::blink:

So I guess your vast electrical knowledge ends with why the IBEW is the best game in town.. :thumbsup:


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> I posted what local because if the poster were a union member he would understand the benefits of the union. Now please post that I am wrong but is this forum not under the banner of Union Topics? Now I have seen hard times searching for work as most electricians probably have but I also have enjoyed having H&W and I did not working nonunion, an awesome retirement and very little if any working nonunion and even several IRA's never working nonunion. The union puts on classes on a regular basis around the country to educate our journeyman so the contractors can be more competitive and we would have a self worth. I do appreciate your concern and or invitation to answer your complaint, thank you. You are correct that I love the IBEW and have no problem spreading the word on my own, not a company dime!But I like the way you think.


That wasn't an invite to pm me, jerkoff.

I'm not reading your post, it's too long,there is no spacing and I pretty much know what it says.

Union,blah,blah,blah,blah,union,blah,blah,blah,ibew,blah,blah,blah.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> What local are you out of ?


Answer my question first and prove your literacy.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

My team is always better than your team! This is how we form tribes in first-world countries.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree, but it is brainwashed into them that they are better. My remark about "Danger, not IBEW installed" , is actually in their apprenticeship curriculum. They are being TAUGHT to look down to us.


We don't have a 'training manual' that you could have seen with your own two eyes. So you made that up. Most folks might call that a lie but I shall just chalk it up to the brainwashing.

I also enjoy how when an honest answer is given, you parade it around like a trophy. Gee, not too petty of you, but I do enjoy it.

Interesting you did not ask why. You just assumed it meant something. It does. You just don't know what since you are too busy with your provided preconceptions that you cannot possibly imagine what that might be.

Again, thank you for your input, your perspective is both entertaining and enlightening.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Answer my question first and prove your literacy.


He can't and he won't.

This has been going on for years.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I know about salting. I kept the journal and reported to an individual and all that, but never followed through with the process.
> 
> My point about the objectives of the IBEW is that it has traveled far from those bullet points. Very, very far. I hear demeaning and hostile comments about non-union on a weekly, if not daily basis.


Actually, on this forum, almost every demeaning comment about other electricians is focus on three groups -trunkslammers/carlonboxinstallers - unions - cletis. The amount of non union slamming is minimal compared to the beating the unions take from a very small minority of posters here. ( yes you can find them - I know at least one poster who will now go out of her way to show a bunch of examples...blah blah blah ).

Every topic is the same - starts off nice, then the trolls show up and we end up where this topic ended up - name calling and whipping cocks on the bar. It is a shame really.

Unions electricians are almost in a different trade than most non union electricians - I never saw the point in the infighting. Perhaps if everyone tried to support each other, we would all make more money and have better benefits.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Chris1971 said:


> ~CS~ you should be a moderator. You bring clarity to an uneducated world. My vote is for CS, ET moderator.:thumbup::thumbup::laughing:


Please no. You cannot put moderators on ignore.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

eejack said:


> Actually, on this forum, almost every demeaning comment about other electricians is focus on three groups -trunkslammers/carlonboxinstallers - unions - cletis....


 I can't argue with that. :laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> We don't have a 'training manual' that you could have seen with your own two eyes. So you made that up. Most folks might call that a lie but I shall just chalk it up to the brainwashing.
> 
> I also enjoy how when an honest answer is given, you parade it around like a trophy. Gee, not too petty of you, but I do enjoy it.
> 
> ...


 
IBEW itself might not have a training manual, but each local does have their own curriculum. This picture was in their manual. It said, "DANGER, NOT IBEW INSTALLED" 

I don't appreciate being called a liar when I'm speaking of something I saw with my own two eyes.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> IBEW itself might not have a training manual, but each local does have their own curriculum. This picture was in their manual. It said, "DANGER, NOT IBEW INSTALLED"
> 
> I don't appreciate being called a liar when I'm speaking of something I saw with my own two eyes.


Proof?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> IBEW itself might not have a training manual, but each local does have their own curriculum. This picture was in their manual. It said, "DANGER, NOT IBEW INSTALLED"
> 
> I don't appreciate being called a liar when I'm speaking of something I saw with my own two eyes.


I don't appreciate you 'seeing something that no one else has ever seen and proclaiming it as the truth of the entirety of the 750,000 members of the IBEW' so in that regard we might have common ground.

And for the record, I called it brainwashing - a sad sad case of it no doubt - but I hold out hope for a recovery on your part.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> Post it here and prove me wrong. If its there ill admit thats wrong and i was wrong. Till then I think you just bought into anti union propaganda. I actually went through the apprenticeship and never did non union bashing happen from the instructors. We had too much other crap to pack into a week than bashing non union. Take off your tin foil hat.


Sorry, you are wrong. There is a page in some of the textbooks like he describes. I graduated about 3 years ago and remember it.

Typing this post I realized I was going off of memory, so I went and found the ad. It is a IBEW-NECA ad speaking to the training apprentices go thru on the way to JW status. In a textbook, and looking at it from the outside, it is a little ugly. The bold part reads like McClary says.

But like all ads, it is a little self serving and sensational, otherwise they get lost in the clatter. There are several other ads in the same text, and most harp on the good more and do less trash talking.

Used as designed, these might be good at convincing customers that union labor is a superior product. Anyone that does not believe their product is superior will have a tough time making a living. That is not to say there are not many great non union electricians.

In the text book it is a lot like propaganda. I think as a union we would be better off encouraging apprentices to be better, smarter, faster electricians, that spend less time trash talking the rest of the electricians. We are all out to make a living after all.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

eejack said:


> Actually, on this forum, almost every demeaning comment about other electricians is focus on three groups -trunkslammers/carlonboxinstallers - unions - cletis. The amount of non union slamming is minimal compared to the beating the unions take from a very small minority of posters here. ( yes you can find them - I know at least one poster who will now go out of her way to show a bunch of examples...blah blah blah ).
> 
> Every topic is the same - starts off nice, then the trolls show up and we end up where this topic ended up - name calling and whipping cocks on the bar. It is a shame really.
> 
> Unions electricians are almost in a different trade than most non union electricians - I never saw the point in the infighting. Perhaps if everyone tried to support each other, we would all make more money and have better benefits.


I'm talking about on the job. And they're not "almost in a different trade". We do the same work.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> Sorry, you are wrong. There is a page in some of the textbooks like he describes. I graduated about 3 years ago and remember it.
> 
> Typing this post I realized I was going off of memory, so I went and found the ad. It is a IBEW-NECA ad speaking to the training apprentices go thru on the way to JW status. In a textbook, and looking at it from the outside, it is a little ugly. The bold part reads like McClary says.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. I didn't want to name the local but I appreciate your honesty.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

s.kelly said:


> Sorry, you are wrong. There is a page in some of the textbooks like he describes. I graduated about 3 years ago and remember it.
> 
> Typing this post I realized I was going off of memory, so I went and found the ad. It is a IBEW-NECA ad speaking to the training apprentices go thru on the way to JW status. In a textbook, and looking at it from the outside, it is a little ugly. The bold part reads like McClary says.
> 
> ...


Still haven't seen it. If it does exists its wrong and shouldn't have been published. Unions aren't perfect but they are better than the alternative around here.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> IBEW itself might not have a training manual, but each local does have their own curriculum. This picture was in their manual. It said, "DANGER, NOT IBEW INSTALLED"
> 
> I don't appreciate being called a liar when I'm speaking of something I saw with my own two eyes.


Liar. ;-). Find it post it. Otherwise shut your trap.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Here ya go. If this doesn't









teach disrespect, I don't know what will.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I dont know of any union posters who get involved in the code discussions


I do.....if its a CEC discussion......no good for me to try to do NEC :no:
I really don't want to get involved in the union/non-union arguement here......other than to say I'm proudly union....and will be as long as IBEW exists simply because I enjoy the work, the much better benefits that electricians in my area see because of being unionized and the way we are treated. I have worked non-union as well before becoming a member. 

Most of the guys are right when they say that HACK knows no boundaries. I've met them everywhere.....I've laid off union guys and non-union alike for piss-poor workmanship. A hack is a hack if he has a yellow card or no card.

As for the brainwashing idea......I've been through most of the courses that IBEW has to offer, I've taught a few and I've put together a lot of course reference material. I've yet to see anything that bashes on non-union electricians in those courses. It may exist but........:whistling2:


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

eejack said:


> We don't have a 'training manual' that you could have seen with your own two eyes. So you made that up. Most folks might call that a lie but I shall just chalk it up to the brainwashing.
> 
> I also enjoy how when an honest answer is given, you parade it around like a trophy. Gee, not too petty of you, but I do enjoy it.
> 
> ...


I agree with every word of this post.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

eejack said:


> Actually, on this forum, almost every demeaning comment about other electricians is focus on three groups -trunkslammers/carlonboxinstallers - unions - cletis. The amount of non union slamming is minimal compared to the beating the unions take from a very small minority of posters here. ( yes you can find them - I know at least one poster who will now go out of her way to show a bunch of examples...blah blah blah ).
> 
> Every topic is the same - starts off nice, then the trolls show up and we end up where this topic ended up - name calling and whipping cocks on the bar. It is a shame really.
> 
> Unions electricians are almost in a different trade than most non union electricians - I never saw the point in the infighting. Perhaps if everyone tried to support each other, we would all make more money and have better benefits.


And this one


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

PS, I was in local 353 for a year, and new apprentices WERE taught to look down on non-union guys even before hitting the jobsite. It was not in a manual but it was taught to me and everyone else in a class of about 30 guys. You can't tell me what I did and didn't experience.

Most union guys I met were not hardcore followers of "union religion" and just wanted to do their jobs(and were good, I might add) but there certainly were some who believed it was their salvation and preached to everyone else. The few guys like that I ran into, were terrible at their jobs.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Here ya go. If this doesn't
> 
> View attachment 20530
> 
> ...


 
Yep there it is........it should not be out there. Its not the way to try to organize other members. It certainly won't help to sway an electrician who was iffy on deciding to join. A little too self righteous for my taste.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

That's 2nd year apprentice curriculum.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

If its taken as a promotion to potential customers saying...."hey, were the better guys out there"....then whats the problem???

No different than Coke telling people that Pepsi sucks:laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That's 2nd year apprentice curriculum.


Not here it isnt. Our apprentice's are trained by the provincial dept of education.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Here ya go. If this doesn't
> 
> teach disrespect, I don't know what will.


I don't agree w/ that sticker and would not use it. But it says the owner of the property. What owner? The IBEW wouldn't own the property. So who would post this sticker? I don't really get it. I really think you need to find a new pet peeve. How about you start getting annoyed by people who pick their nose. That would be more interesting than your normal anti union script you been using for a long time.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> If its taken as a promotion to potential customers saying...."hey, were the better guys out there"....then whats the problem???
> 
> No different than Coke telling people that Pepsi sucks:laughing:


 
There's nothing wrong with telling your customer's "we're the best"

There's something wrong with brainwashing your apprentices that non union contractors are a lesser breed of electricians. 

It only distances people from the union. Which is cool with me though.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I like Rollie... but I really don't seem to like Brother Noah and Union347Sparky's attitudes.

One day I'll probably get around to getting my butt in the union, but I sure hope guys like Rollie, Drumnut and S.Kelly start taking over leadership positions and get rid of the bad apples, or at least clean them up.

I've worked with ibew guys who were working non-union temporarily until union jobs started, and they were mostly good guys and decent electricians. I met some union guys in school who were totally douchebags with some of the negative attitudes as found on here. It's unfortunate, because I don't remember the non-IBEW douchebags, I just remember the IBEW ones. 

Attitudes have to change and policies need tweaking if IBEW stands a chance. And I really think they could become strong, but it takes everyone on board. Making enemies, if even as trivial as on a website forum, can have real negative impacts for an organization.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Most union guys I met were not hardcore followers of "union religion" and just wanted to do their jobs(and were good, I might add) but there certainly were some who believed it was their salvation and preached to everyone else. The few guys like that I ran into, were terrible at their jobs.


I can name a few of those...:laughing:. It's unfortunate but in some cases its true. I have no love loss for the guys who can't do the job and have personally told them that they are an embaresment to our local. The only thing that bugs me more are the guys who can but WON'T do the job and choose to hide behind the union card instead. We don't need brothers like that.:no:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Rollie73 said:


> I can name a few of those...:laughing:. It's unfortunate but in some cases its true. I have no love loss for the guys who can't do the job and have personally told them that they are an embaresment to our local. The only thing that bugs me more are the guys who can but WON'T do the job and choose to hide behind the union card instead. We don't need brothers like that.:no:


I agree. They should be forced to work non union. :laughing:


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

union347sparky said:


> I don't agree w/ that sticker and would not use it. But it says the owner of the property. What owner? The IBEW wouldn't own the property. So who would post this sticker? I don't really get it. I really think you need to find a new pet peeve. How about you start getting annoyed by people who pick their nose. That would be more interesting than your normal anti union script you been using for a long time.


The one McClary posted seems to leave out the bottom part they had when I went thru. It was or at least seemed to be an ad that might be in a contractor or customer oriented mag. It was not great before, and as he posted it is worse, things may not all change for the better. Looks more like propaganda than before.

As I said earlier, it is poorly placed in curriculum materials. This is from the national book materials, probably in most or all locals if people notice or not. If your local teaches from the "standardized" material it is there somewhere.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I'm talking about on the job. And they're not "almost in a different trade". We do the same work.


I'm sorry you have bad experiences out in the field. I very rarely run into non union electricians on jobs and never had a need to say anything untoward. I *have* given them my rate and benefits and answered questions and I *have* ripped into a few non union contractor's supervisors for dangerous work practices - but over the 28 years I have been in the trade - that is a handful of times.

As far as the work - we all do electrical work, but the actual work and circumstances are very different. I do not do what many non union folks do and I am glad someone does that work and makes a living doing it. I just wish they made a better living doing it.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> _*One day I'll probably get around to getting my butt in the union, but I sure hope guys like Rollie, Drumnut and S.Kelly start taking over leadership positions and get rid of the bad apples, or at least clean them up*_.
> 
> Attitudes have to change and policies need tweaking if IBEW stands a chance. And I really think they could become strong, but it takes everyone on board.


I'm trying hard to change that attitude at our local. I'm considering running for President in next years election and I feel the same way. 

We will only become as strong as we once were by showing that we can provide good, well trained, competent, hard working manpower who are going to get the job done on time and within budget. We all need to be a united front if we are going to achieve this and letting the bashing get in the way DOES not help us do that. 

If the company is a HACK outfit (closed shop or not)and they continue to do crap work then that work will be their demise. They won't go away just because IBEW says they are non-union therefore they are terrible.
The only way to get our market share up and keep it that way is to provide an excellent value to the end customer.

If we do this right and strive toward our end goal of organizing as many electricians as we possibly can....by providing them with an excellent standard of living, unmatched benefits and compensation package, representation without predijuce and the best training we can.... then we will be the better value and the hack shops will simply fade away.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Yeah, answering a question is real gay.
> 
> PS, I was in local 353 for a year, and new apprentices WERE taught to look down on non-union guys even before hitting the jobsite. It was not in a manual but it was taught to me and everyone else in a class of about 30 guys. You can't tell me what I did and didn't experience.
> 
> Most union guys I met were not hardcore followers of "union religion" and just wanted to do their jobs(and were good, I might add) but there certainly were some who believed it was their salvation and preached to everyone else. The few guys like that I ran into, were terrible at their jobs.


Not all make it through the IBEW apprenticeship program, and I had no idea thats what they taught their first years in Toronto? I have never experienced or heard of that being part of the criteria. Oh and I received a pm requesting me to do a gay act.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Here ya go. If this doesn't
> 
> View attachment 20530
> 
> ...


I think that is funny as hell. Too bad it twists your mangina.:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Here ya go. If this doesn't
> 
> View attachment 20530
> 
> ...


Thanks - never saw on of those before. Well then I owe you an apology - as a placard it does exist. First time for everything.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

eejack said:


> i'm sorry you have bad experiences out in the field. I very rarely run into non union electricians on jobs and never had a need to say anything untoward. I *have* given them my rate and benefits and answered questions and i *have* ripped into a few non union contractor's supervisors for dangerous work practices - but over the 28 years i have been in the trade - that is a handful of times.
> 
> As far as the work - we all do electrical work, but the actual work and circumstances are very different. I do not do what many non union folks do and i am glad someone does that work and makes a living doing it. I just wish they made a better living doing it.


amen brother!!!


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Brother Noah said:


> Not all make it through the IBEW apprenticeship program, and I had no idea thats what they taught their first years in Toronto? I have never experienced or heard of that being part of the criteria.


Me neither. I also don't believe half the BS that is stated on here, including the incredible bad advice by the reams.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Not all make it through the IBEW apprenticeship program, and I had no idea thats what they taught their first years in Toronto? I have never experienced or heard of that being part of the criteria. Oh and I received a pm requesting me to do a gay act.


You still never answered my original question.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> You still never answered my original question.


I believe I have only posted on union topics on this site.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do.
> I guess my question is. If I were to get laid off, would the union be a decent choice? I have mainly done industrial construction; electrical, pipe fighting, and iron working for the last seven years. With the exception of 1 year that was commercial service work. Honestly I just want to continue with industrial construction. But jobs seem to be few and far between down here. To summarize would I be able to continue with the work Ive been doing, if I go union?


You should probably look into a maintenance type position in a factory if you want to do more than just electric. If you go to an electrical contractor, it should just be electric work.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> I believe I have only posted on union topics on this site.


Right, so go back, read my question, and answer it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack said:


> As far as the work - we all do electrical work, but the actual work and circumstances are very different. I do not do what many non union folks do and I am glad someone does that work and makes a living doing it. I just wish they made a better living doing it.


 
It never fails, without a doubt, even when you are attempting to sound normal, you still can't help but place yourself above everyone else. You do it in almost every post.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It never fails, without a doubt, even when you are attempting to sound normal, you still can't help but place yourself above everyone else. You do it in almost every post.


He is happy doing what he does. You are happy doing what you do. Why the constant crybaby then about unions? Get over yourself.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It never fails, without a doubt, even when you are attempting to sound normal, you still can't help but place yourself above everyone else. You do it in almost every post.


I don't really get that from that post. Maybe because where I'm from it is very true that the union guys do VERY different aspects of the trade than the non-union guys. 
As a union electrician.....I do very little residential (we have no residential agreement) and zero residential service work....where as the non-union guys here do absolutely NO industrial work and very little commercial work. I would never be able to get a non-union sparky here to wire up a full fire alarm system or change a 3 phase motor windings from wye to delta for example......at least not without training them first.
I do realize that is NOT true everywhere....however I understand where he was coming from there.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Right, so go back, read my question, and answer it.


Now you go back and read my reply and you will find the answer I gave is that the IBEW has awesome opportunity's for many. The IBEW is not about I its about US. Those of us who love the IBEW do teach what we have been taught to whom ever is willing to learn.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> I don't really get that from that post. Maybe because where I'm from it is very true that the union guys do VERY different aspects of the trade than the non-union guys.
> As a union electrician.....I do very little residential (we have no residential agreement) and zero residential service work....where as the non-union guys here do absolutely NO industrial work and very little commercial work. I would never be able to get a non-union sparky here to wire up a full fire alarm system or change a 3 phase motor windings from wye to delta for example......at least not without training them first.
> I do realize that is NOT true everywhere....however I understand where he was coming from there.



Here's the deal, though: I doubt you could be let loose in a house with a bunch of NM (loomex) left to your own devices and be able to rope it (service included) in 2-3 days....... and pass inspections.

Point is, wiring a factory is different than wiring a house. Not 'better', just _different_. Being able to wire a factory in your sleep does NOT make you a better electrician than one who can wire a house in his sleep.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Rollie73;889947.where as the non-union guys here do absolutely NO industrial work and very little commercial work..[/quote said:


> That seems odd.
> 
> Why is that?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

brother noah said:


> now you go back and read my reply and you will find the answer i gave is that the ibew has awesome opportunity's for many. The ibew is not about i its about us. Those of us who love the ibew do teach what we have been taught to whom ever is willing to learn.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Rollie73 said:


> I don't really get that from that post. Maybe because where I'm from it is very true that the union guys do VERY different aspects of the trade than the non-union guys.
> As a union electrician.....I do very little residential (we have no residential agreement) and zero residential service work....where as the non-union guys here do absolutely NO industrial work and very little c aommercial work. I would never be able to get a non-union sparky here to wire up a full fire alarm system or change a 3 phase motor windings from wye to delta for example......at least not without training them first.
> I do realize that is NOT true everywhere....however I understand where he was coming from there.


Most of the work we as whole are expose to (mainly industrial and large commercial projects) Have engineers go through and specify down to the size of cable,conduit,cans,disconnects etc that will be needed for a said job. The nature of working these type jobs is a contractor will do all but eliminate the need for their journeymen to even look at a code book. There have been times where some of us have caught mistake, brought it to the attention of the project managers to save them from mistakes.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 20533


I heard a rumor several years ago that he had a non-union contractor wire his house. Not sure if it's true though.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Now you go back and read my reply and you will find the answer I gave is that the IBEW has awesome opportunity's for many. The IBEW is not about I its about US. Those of us who love the IBEW do teach what we have been taught to whom ever is willing to learn.


Let me spell it out for you since your "fantastic education" apparently did not include reading comprehension. You posted a whole pile of unrelated bleeding-heart crap without actually addressing a question aimed directly at you.



Vintage Sounds said:


> Have you ever actually posted anything on ET outside of the union forum ? If you got such an "awesome" education on the job _*why don't you share some of your accumulated knowledge with the rest of us plebeian electricians who obviously were never as "fortunate" as you?*_


If a person doesn't post in the actual electrical sections of this site I believe that person has no place on ET.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> If a person doesn't post in the actual electrical sections of this site I believe that person has no place on ET.


What would you like to know?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

big2bird said:


> What would you like to know?


The reason for this douche canoe's complete and deliberate lack of contribution to a site on which he has posted the same re-treaded crap for nearly three years over 500 times.



Brother Noah said:


> I believe I have only posted on union topics on this site.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> I heard a rumor several years ago that he had a non-union contractor wire his house. Not sure if it's true though.


I really doubt that's true


I still think this union non union stereotyping all stems from the fact that if an open shop hires a union guy, he probably couldn't stay employed in the union and will probably suck. Organized guys usually suck because they couldn't stay employed working at open shops. Personally, I don't think I've ever worked with an organized guy that I would want working for me if I was opening a shop. They usually havnt given 2 ****s what their work looked like and if they did, they weren't good enough at their job to make it look good


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

347sparky said:


> You should probably look into a maintenance type position in a factory if you want to do more than just electric. If you go to an electrical contractor, it should just be electric work.


Not if he came to work for me. I always need electricians that can weld and fit.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

So this is where everyone is hiding? Did I miss something?:laughing:


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> Not if he came to work for me. I always need electricians that can weld and fit.


That's why they have welders and fitters.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

347sparky said:


> That's why they have welders and fitters.


I have those too, but if I need to send an electrician out to re automate a well site out in BFE he's got to able to be able to put in new pumps, meters, transmitters, weld on threadolets, put new ports on tanks for level sensors...


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

347sparky said:


> That's why they have welders and fitters.


 
Seems like the local here puts out alot of calls for dual ticketed electrician/welders.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

So how about them Patriots?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It never fails, without a doubt, even when you are attempting to sound normal, you still can't help but place yourself above everyone else. You do it in almost every post.


I think you are doing a bit of projecting. I am not saying the work I do is better/worse/plaid, I am saying it is different. 

Am I outstanding at what I do? Of course. Does that mean you are not outstanding at what you do - absolutely not. We can both be good at our trade...


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> I really doubt that's true
> 
> I still think this union non union stereotyping all stems from the fact that if an open shop hires a union guy, he probably couldn't stay employed in the union and will probably suck. Organized guys usually suck because they couldn't stay employed working at open shops. Personally, I don't think I've ever worked with an organized guy that I would want working for me if I was opening a shop. They usually havnt given 2 ****s what their work looked like and if they did, they weren't good enough at their job to make it look good


Lol ! You're way off on this one ! Organized guys ( ones who worked for non- union , open shops ) generally have a stronger work ethic than the " born in " union man . They are often more willing to go the extra mile to get the job done whereas , the die hard play by the rules union employee knows if he gets laid off from this contractor , another will be waiting. This isn't made up either ! I've witnessed this on every union job I've ever been on ! The joke used to be " how do you know how many organized guy you have on the job ? " easy , they're the ones working ! This isn't always the case , but it is prevalent . I'm not in denial about what actually goes on , like some .


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Lol ! You're way off on this one ! Organized guys ( ones who worked for non- union , open shops ) generally have a stronger work ethic than the " born in " union man . They are often more willing to go the extra mile to get the job done whereas , the die hard play by the rules union employee knows if he gets laid off from this contractor , another will be waiting. This isn't made up either ! I've witnessed this on every union job I've ever been on ! The joke used to be " how do you know how many organized guy you have on the job ? " easy , they're the ones working ! This isn't always the case , but it is prevalent . I'm not in denial about what actually goes on , like some .


I guess we have had different experiences. Most of the organized fellows I have worked with are just normal folks who come to work every day on time and sober - pretty much like all the union fellows who went through an apprenticeship.

People are people.

The differences I see are in our scope of work - organized guys will go beyond our scope of work more readily because they haven't the experience. Certainly understandable. They will also give up conditions more easily - probably due to the experiences of working non union. Again, certainly understandable.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Brother Noah said:


> Not all make it through the IBEW apprenticeship program, and I had no idea thats what they taught their first years in Toronto? I have never experienced or heard of that being part of the criteria. Oh and I received a pm requesting me to do a gay act.



Maybe you could take a class at the hall that teaches reading comprehension.



19kilosparky984 said:


> Brother Noah said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for your concern.
> ...


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

eejack said:


> I guess we have had different experiences. Most of the organized fellows I have worked with are just normal folks who come to work every day on time and sober - pretty much like all the union fellows who went through an apprenticeship.
> 
> People are people.
> 
> The differences I see are in our scope of work - organized guys will go beyond our scope of work more readily because they haven't the experience. Certainly understandable. They will also give up conditions more easily - probably due to the experiences of working non union. Again, certainly understandable.


I understand what you're saying but I know what I've experienced and a lot of it has been downright disgusting ! I was the wire pulling foreman on a fed ex distribution facility on a job out of my local . Right off the bat , I get zero respect because they have to take orders from an out of local guy . Every day it was a chore to try to get these guys motivated to do anything ! One of the guys as I'm telling him what the next pull is and how many wires etc. ( they don't dare look at a print ) , he starts sniffing and looking around . I said , everything ok , what are you smelling ? He says " this job smells like its gonna go to 7 / 12's very soon ! I kid you not ! It did have to go to overtime ( not 7/12's ) , due to the lack of upfront feet dragging . This was done on purpose . Great for the men , bad for the contractor ! Enough jobs go that route , there's less and less contractors to work for . That's the part I have a problem with .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Whats apparent is this section of ET has succumbed to _delusional threaditis_*

A strange new ascii disease which apparently renders posters unable to grasp reality, continually foist their credentials as if they were a gold standard, while insisting the laws of capitalism bow to their exclusive doctrine, and further make vielied appologies for it all....

While the affliction doesn,t appear contagious outside of their particular group, it can many times be annoying in it's perpetual drone.



_*pending a CDC study_

~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Whats apparent is this section of ET has succumbed to _delusional threaditis_*
> 
> A strange new ascii disease which apparently renders posters unable to grasp reality, continually foist their credentials as if they were a gold standard, while insisting the laws of capitalism bow to their exclusive doctrine, and further make vielied appologies for it all....
> 
> ...


 
Chicken, this is now your best post ever. Thanks:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

All along the running joke in here has been.. _"you're not really an electrician ... are you"..._

Well it turns out to be true in Brother Noah's case.. he must be the guy who rides around in the late model black Caddy with envelopes stuffed with cash..:laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> All along the running joke in here has been.. _"you're not really an electrician ... are you"..._
> 
> Well it turns out to be true in Brother Noah's case.. he must be the guy who rides around in the late model black Caddy with envelopes stuffed with cash..:laughing:


I have worked with Noah on more than one job, and he can hold his own with the best of them. Just because he does not post in other sections is quite irrelevent.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Lol ! You're way off on this one ! Organized guys ( ones who worked for non- union , open shops ) generally have a stronger work ethic than the " born in " union man . They are often more willing to go the extra mile to get the job done whereas , the die hard play by the rules union employee knows if he gets laid off from this contractor , another will be waiting. This isn't made up either ! I've witnessed this on every union job I've ever been on ! The joke used to be " how do you know how many organized guy you have on the job ? " easy , they're the ones working ! This isn't always the case , but it is prevalent . I'm not in denial about what actually goes on , like some .


That might apply in some locals, but I assure you it does not fly here.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

OTOH..... it appears that i must, _yet again_.... venture out by my own 'lil 'ol self as an EC today onto a _sea_ of demand......that this should occur almost daily for us now _(in my case decades)_ in this biz without whatever grandious union knowledge we're allegedly not _worthy_ of, or _unable_ to aspire to, would seem a herculean feat......

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

big2bird said:


> I have worked with Noah on more than one job, and he can hold his own with the best of them. .


Doubtless BB, we just wish he would stop _holding it_ while posting on ET... ~CS


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Doubtless BB, we just wish he would stop _holding it_ while posting on ET... ~CS


And some of us would like a few guys from constantly attacking the union guys. Sadly, we are at an impasse.
Some of us are Democrats, some Republicans, but we are all citizens. I see no difference in this constant IBEW vs us arguements.
The union has been good to me, and I am happy. Working open shop has been good to many of you, and your happy.
Isn't that all that matters?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

big2bird said:


> And some of us would like a few guys from constantly attacking the union guys. Sadly, we are at an impasse.
> Some of us are Democrats, some Republicans, but we are all citizens. I see no difference in this constant IBEW vs us arguements.
> The union has been good to me, and I am happy. Working open shop has been good to many of you, and your happy.
> Isn't that all that matters?


 
Yes, but this site would be very boring if everbody "got along"

Haven't you been to Mike Holt's?


Speaking for myself, alot of the stuff I post is purely to keep the conversation lively. People shouldn't take it seriously enough to go rent a uhaul or anything:whistling2:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, but this site would be very boring if everbody "got along"
> 
> Haven't you been to Mike Holt's?
> 
> ...


I understand your need to stir the pot for your own entertainment value. This site can be quite boring at times.

Who is Mike Holt?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I understand your need to stir the pot for your own entertainment value. This site can be quite boring at times.
> 
> Who is Mike Holt?


 
Seriously? 

Mike Holt's forum is christian ran and very politically correct. One poster here is an incredibly stuck up moderator on that site. That dude bust my balls every time I post there:whistling2: Talk about a snoozefest


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Here's the deal, though: I doubt you could be let loose in a house with a bunch of NM (loomex) left to your own devices and be able to rope it (service included) in 2-3 days....... and pass inspections.
> 
> Point is, wiring a factory is different than wiring a house. Not 'better', just _different_. Being able to wire a factory in your sleep does NOT make you a better electrician than one who can wire a house in his sleep.


To compare the skill set required to hook up a 3 way switch with the skill required to terminate the controls on a nuclear power plant is far fetched.
Yes they have their own skill set, but you have way over simplified the arguement.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Mike Holt's forum is christian ran and very politically correct. One poster here is an incredibly stuck up moderator on that site. That dude bust my balls every time I post there:whistling2: Talk about a snoozefest


Seriously.
From your description, it would not interest me in the least.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> And some of us would like a few guys from constantly attacking the union guys.


And some of us would like it if the union stopped harassing merit shop guys on their way into work and setting up rats and calling people scabs. Sadly we are at an impass there as well

But yeah you are right pointing out union shortcomings on an internet forum is so much worse than a union man calling us rats and scabs in the real world. 

Toughen up buttercup :whistling2:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> And some of us would like it if the union stopped harassing merit shop guys on their way into work and setting up rats and calling people scabs. Sadly we are at an impass there as well
> 
> But yeah you are right pointing out union shortcomings on an internet forum is so much worse than a union man calling us rats and scabs in the real world.
> 
> Toughen up buttercup :whistling2:


BBQ. It would just be nice to have an intelligent thread here without all the animosity. 
As for all this name calling/inflatable rat stuff, it just does not happen here in my local. I have no doubt it does, but it's foreign to me.
As for being thick skinned, my mangina is fine. I just tire of the broken record train of thought.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, but this site would be very boring if everbody "got along"
> 
> Haven't you been to Mike Holt's?
> 
> ...










:laughing:




.I think the New york jets will win this week..:blink::laughing:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> I understand what you're saying but I know what I've experienced and a lot of it has been downright disgusting ! I was the wire pulling foreman on a fed ex distribution facility on a job out of my local . Right off the bat , I get zero respect because they have to take orders from an out of local guy . Every day it was a chore to try to get these guys motivated to do anything ! One of the guys as I'm telling him what the next pull is and how many wires etc. ( they don't dare look at a print ) , he starts sniffing and looking around . I said , everything ok , what are you smelling ? He says " this job smells like its gonna go to 7 / 12's very soon ! I kid you not ! It did have to go to overtime ( not 7/12's ) , due to the lack of upfront feet dragging . This was done on purpose . Great for the men , bad for the contractor ! Enough jobs go that route , there's less and less contractors to work for . That's the part I have a problem with .



ive seen plenty of that too from guys brought up union. I'll stick by what i originally said about the organized guys, whereas the guys that started union, there is a huge mixture of work ethics and the slackers are the ones that get laid off first


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> BBQ. It would just be nice to have an intelligent thread here without all the animosity.


LOL, again it seems another union member feels the only 'intelligent threads' are those only praising the union.

That is not real life, get used to it.



> As for all this name calling/inflatable rat stuff, it just does not happen here in my local.


Well it happens here and that makes me lose any sense of feeling bad if I upset a union member with words I type on a forum.



> As for being thick skinned, my mangina is fine. I just tire of the broken record train of thought.


And many of us are _just as sick_ of being looked at as dirt bags because we do not work union.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I'd say about 85% of this video is false.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'd say about 85% of this video is false.


No, the IBEW does not as matter of practice ridicule the open shops. :laughing:

Nice job mcclary.:thumbsup:

And I am not sure if even 15% is true.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)




----------



## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

"I don't have to fight my own battles, I have someone else doing it for me.":blink: :laughing:


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

For the record, that video was of Canadian electricians, where apprenticeships are delivered by the province, not the union. For the classroom portion, we sit elbow to elbow, union and non.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

So this thread went about 24 posts before it turned into a crap storm. Not a single one of the militant non union posters addressed the OP or contributed anything even remotely on topic, which is typical. Instead of making a positive case for going non union, they made mud.

I find it sad that they can not say any nice things about themselves. Maybe less projection and more reflection is in order for the new year.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> So this thread went about 24 posts before it turned into a crap storm. Not a single one of the militant non union posters addressed the OP


Interesting, the OP actually seemed to think I made some good points so I think you may be viewing things a bit distorted.




bigpapa08 said:


> BBQ you are definitely the voice of reason. Our trade needs more uniity in it. Thats on both the parts of the union and non union electricians. Divided we fall together we stand.



And again ........... you are asking for folks to only voice positive things about the union ......... why are you so afraid of opposing views?


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Interesting, the OP actually seemed to think I made some good points so I think you may be viewing things a bit distorted.


You are not one of the militant non union posters.



BBQ said:


> And again ........... you are asking for folks to only voice positive things about the union ......... why are you so afraid of opposing views?


I have no problem with opposing views. We all have ( or should have ) a problem with the diarrhea that flows out of many of these posters. It is like a bunch of prairie dogs popping their heads up...OMG Union Thread - must fling poo nao.

Discussion and discourse is one thing. What we have is not that thing.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Here's the deal, though: I doubt you could be let loose in a house with a bunch of NM (loomex) left to your own devices and be able to rope it (service included) in 2-3 days....... and pass inspections.


Pffft.......yeah right. I started out doing resi. That's why I KNOW for a fact that I dislike it. I've just recently finished roughing in my parent's new home....along with the service.....completely left to my own devices too and did the entire house in 4 good days. All the LV, communications, lighting, distribution and HVAC system controls. Guess what...........it all PASSED inspections........and that's the first resi job I've done in about 5 yrs.

Dont ever assume anything about me. I've worked pretty well all aspects of this trade and I have chosen to do the type of work I do because its what I enjoy.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'd say about 85% of this video is false.


 
You dont believe that first guy worked 128 hours in one week, at straight time no less.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

big2bird said:


> BBQ. It would just be nice to have an intelligent thread here without all the animosity.
> As for all this name calling/inflatable rat stuff, it just does not happen here in my local. I have no doubt it does, but it's foreign to me.
> .


And you have the unmitigated gall to call yourself a brotherhood.....?

~CS~


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> ive seen plenty of that too from guys brought up union. I'll stick by what i originally said about the organized guys, whereas the guys that started union, there is a huge mixture of work ethics and the slackers are the ones that get laid off first


Well , maybe thing operate different where you are ? A large majority of " union brothers and sisters " organized or " born into it " are great workers and people you'd love to have on your crew everyday ! Then , there are the other ones , who just show up , rarely work , and you can never find , lol ! Yes , these people exist and yes , they'll be the first ones laid off , but that's as far as the union takes it ! Work for an open shop and pull that crap and see how long you last ?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> So I've been with my current company for around seven months. Now the talk around the shop is they are considering laying off a third of us. I bust my ass everyday, but am still kinda worried. Mainly the whole, "last in, first out" saying. I really like this company, and love the work we do.
> I guess my question is. If I were to get laid off, would the union be a decent choice? I have mainly done industrial construction; electrical, pipe fighting, and iron working for the last seven years. With the exception of 1 year that was commercial service work. Honestly I just want to continue with industrial construction. But jobs seem to be few and far between down here. To summarize would I be able to continue with the work Ive been doing, if I go union?


I'll try to answer this the best I can . First off , if you decide to go union , you will be laid off . This is a given and a bi product of the economy unfortunately . I don't care if you can walk on water , when the work runs out , companies don't just keep you because they like you . Merit shops will try a little harder to keep a good guy even when they are slow , union contractors , not so much . If industrial is your gig an you really like it , take a survey of plants around you and see if they're going union or non ? A lot of chemical plants and oil refineries aren't all union surprisingly . The head bean counters are more than willing to pay an electrician less than union scale to work in a dangerous environment as long as the job gets done . It sounds like you have a lot of skills , so in sure whatever route you choose to take , you'll work , more than you don't . The IBEW has a lot to offer , but I'll easily admit , it isn't for everyone . The beauty of this is , we all have the ability to change what we don't stand behind by simply leaving . Best of luck to you big papa !


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I've talked to several people. We've all determined you're better off making your deals with the contractor than expecting the hall to do anything for you. The hall is a joke. They're definitely not looking out for the working man.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks the big Q is, are you or are you _not _your Brothers keeper?

~CS~


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> I'll try to answer this the best I can . First off , if you decide to go union , you will be laid off . This is a given and a bi product of the economy unfortunately . I don't care if you can walk on water , when the work runs out , companies don't just keep you because they like you . Merit shops will try a little harder to keep a good guy even when they are slow , union contractors , not so much . If industrial is your gig an you really like it , take a survey of plants around you and see if they're going union or non ? A lot of chemical plants and oil refineries aren't all union surprisingly . The head bean counters are more than willing to pay an electrician less than union scale to work in a dangerous environment as long as the job gets done . It sounds like you have a lot of skills , so in sure whatever route you choose to take , you'll work , more than you don't . The IBEW has a lot to offer , but I'll easily admit , it isn't for everyone . The beauty of this is , we all have the ability to change what we don't stand behind by simply leaving . Best of luck to you big papa !


I think the OP has left the discussion. Kinda reminds me of those old westerns where the patrons rush to the door of the saloon before the gunslingers fight.:zorro::euro::2guns:


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

uconduit said:


> I think the OP has left the discussion. Kinda reminds me of those old westerns where the patrons rush to the door of the saloon before the gunslingers fight.:zorro::euro::2guns:


Lol , yeah , I think you're right ! The whole union / non-union debate can get heated and in all honesty , is enough to scare anyone away , lol !


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

When was the last time a non-union guy posted on this forum.. but never posted anything to do with the trade itself.. makes no sense..:no:

But Brother Noah could run with the best of them... is anybody impressed..


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> When was the last time a non-union guy posted on this forum.. but never posted anything to do with the trade itself.. makes no sense..:no:
> 
> But Brother Noah could run with the best of them... is anybody impressed..


Is that a requirement to post here? Or are you merely being judgemental again?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> And many of us are _just as sick_ of being looked at as dirt bags because we do not work union.


Toughen up buttercup. You made your choice.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

big2bird said:


> Is that a requirement to post here? Or are you merely being judgemental again?


I am stating facts.. the idea of a forum is to learn something from everyone who decides to share their knowledge...

Union guys have the best training out there.. work on the biggest and most complex jobs that can be designed...

I am speaking about what goes on here with Local 3 & 25.. different areas have large non-union shops... not here that I know of..

You see things everyday I won't see in a lifetime.. so I enjoy what you guys post.. 

Not everyday a (2500) hp. motor comes up for discussion..


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

B4T said:


> I am stating facts.. the idea of a forum is to learn something from everyone who decides to share their knowledge...
> 
> Union guys have the best training out there.. work on the biggest and most complex jobs that can be designed...
> 
> ...


Pfft, I've worked on things in places a lot of union guys never will.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> I am stating facts.. the idea of a forum is to learn something from everyone who decides to share their knowledge...
> 
> Union guys have the best training out there.. work on the biggest and most complex jobs that can be designed...
> 
> ...


Then ask questions. I would post threads about jobs or pics about what I have done, but I find I get few responses due to the "click" on here. I also fear appearing arrogent, so I usually refrain. IF I felt the others felt the same way, I would post more. 
I do appreciate your candid answer B4T, kudos.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Pfft, I've worked on things in places a lot of union guys never will.


And I have worked on alot of projects few will ever see too. Do you have a point?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BTW, does anyone remember the topic? I am afraid I lost track.:laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I've talked to several people. We've all determined you're better off making your deals with the contractor than expecting the hall to do anything for you. The hall is a joke. They're definitely not looking out for the working man.


I've been working through my hall for 28 years and it most certainly is not a joke. The hall has to balance out the good of the individual against the good of the organization and the good of the contractor and sometimes I come out on the short end of that. However, I make an excellent living with excellent benefits doing interesting work in interesting places.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> I have no problem with opposing views. We all have ( or should have ) a problem with the diarrhea that flows out of many of these posters. It is like a bunch of prairie dogs popping their heads up...OMG Union Thread - must fling poo nao.
> 
> Discussion and discourse is one thing. What we have is not that thing.


I dare to argue with you, Oh Great One. You don't have a problem with opposing views, you just refuse to consider them! We lesser forms of life should all keep silence as you speak your wisdom. But maybe more of it should be actual useable wisdom and less non-union bashing and wasting your time arguing with union bashers.:yes: I guess I'll pull my bottom feeding Prairie Dog head back into my hole!! Personally, I could care less if someone wants to join the union. Go ahead if you feel it's the thing for you. Unless the economy improves, you'll probably end up on the bench. I don't wish that on anyone, union or non-union.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

big2bird said:


> BTW, does anyone remember the topic? I am afraid I lost track.:laughing:


Huh , what topic ? Is this ride over , lol ? The poor OP ran away screaming on the first page or two of this 12+ page saga , lol !


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Pfft, I've worked on things in places a lot of union guys never will.


I happily trade stories with you...I like story time.

So you don't feel uncomfortable, I'll start.

Recently I am working at one of the power plants in NJ that was sunk by Sandy. It is an older power plant with a rather extensive basement complex that was completely filled with dirty nasty ugly water ( and all sorts of fuels, oils, sewerage...you get the idea ). 

This basement is filled with steam and hot line - all covered with asbestos insulation. Now all that insulation had to go - being now saturated with icky wetness. So the after the pumping started we went in to salvage as much of the controls on the pipe as we could before the insulation removal crew got there with their hatchets. Even with all that effort many of the instrumentation lines were cut...needing tracing and replacement.

Loads of fun.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> I dare to argue with you, Oh Great One. You don't have a problem with opposing views, you just refuse to consider them! We lesser forms of life should all keep silence as you speak your wisdom. But maybe more of it should be actual useable wisdom and less non-union bashing and wasting your time arguing with union bashers.:yes: I guess I'll pull my bottom feeding Prairie Dog head back into my hole!! Personally, I could care less if someone wants to join the union. Go ahead if you feel it's the thing for you. Unless the economy improves, you'll probably end up on the bench. I don't wish that on anyone, union or non-union.


And your entire contribution to this thread is to take umbrage at a comment not even directed at you and....fling poo.

The best part is I don't bash non union folks - I would rather you folks joined in the fun and made more money and better benefits. You all do the non union bashing to yourselves. 

I *do* bash trolls - but seriously - how could I not? It is way too much fun to work up the easily frenzied into a froth.:thumbsup:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

eejack said:


> *I have no problem with opposing views. We all have ( or should have ) a problem with the diarrhea that flows out of many of these posters. It is like a bunch of prairie dogs popping their heads up*...OMG Union Thread - must fling poo nao.





eejack said:


> The best part is I* don't bash non union folks* - I would rather you folks joined in the fun and made more money and better benefits. You all do the non union bashing to yourselves.
> 
> I *do* bash trolls - but seriously - how could I not? It is way too much fun to work up the easily frenzied into a froth.:thumbsup:


:laughing::laughing: Is it possible to join the union when you own your business!!


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> this 12+ page saga !


 
Go to your User CP.

Then go to Settings & Options.

Then edit options.

You can show up to 50 posts on a page.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

big2bird said:


> I would post threads about jobs or pics about what I have done, but I find I get few responses due to the "click" on here.


One thing I found out long time ago about this site is it has the world's best electricians.. 

They never break code.. never take a short cut.. never use Murray breakers in a GE panel.. and every job they sell is a money maker.. 

They will rip you if a strap is out of place just to get the "gotcha" points...

Have a thick skin and post away.. this is the Internet and it means nothing in the real world.. :thumbsup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> One thing I found out long time ago about this site is it has the world's best electricians.


 I like to think by virtue of posting here, you become the worlds best electrician... but only after at least 7,357 posts. _:whistling2: _:whistling2:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

wendon said:


> :laughing::laughing: Is it possible to join the union when you own your business!!


Yes. It's called a WEC. "Working electrical contractor."


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> They never break code.. never take a short cut.. never use Murray breakers in a GE panel.. and every job they sell is a money maker..


Leaves me out. I have done all of that and more at times. :laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

eejack said:


> I happily trade stories with you...I like story time.
> 
> So you don't feel uncomfortable, I'll start.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the time a Hunt Wesson cooking oil refinery fire. Ever slide around in burnt wesson oil all day long?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## bigpapa08 (Nov 19, 2012)

uconduit said:


> I think the OP has left the discussion. Kinda reminds me of those old westerns where the patrons rush to the door of the saloon before the gunslingers fight.:zorro::euro::2guns:


Naw, Im still here. I just finished with work for the day. So to jump right in to the mix that I unintentionally stirred up. Ive made my decision on what Im gonna do. Yall have been very helpful in that. Im gonna stay non union. The IBEW doesnt pay enough down here, for me to join right now. Being multicraft has put my pay grade through the roof. If something happenswhappenswIth the current company. Ill probably hit the road with my fitter and head up to the Dakotas. He is union, and has no loyalty to his union at all. He jumps from job to job chasing that over time. Thanks for the advice from both sides of the fence.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Reminds me of the time a Hunt Wesson cooking oil refinery fire. Ever slide around in burnt wesson oil all day long?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


No but I have played in the industrial strength 'browning agent' they use to brown and flavor Ritz crackers. Slickest schtuff on earth.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

bigpapa08 said:


> Naw, Im still here. I just finished with work for the day. So to jump right in to the mix that I unintentionally stirred up. Ive made my decision on what Im gonna do. Yall have been very helpful in that. Im gonna stay non union. The IBEW doesnt pay enough down here, for me to join right now. Being multicraft has put my pay grade through the roof. If something happenswhappenswIth the current company. Ill probably hit the road with my fitter and head up to the Dakotas. He is union, and has no loyalty to his union at all. He jumps from job to job chasing that over time. Thanks for the advice from both sides of the fence.


That makes a lot of sense if you plan on staying local.

If you end up traveling, having a fitters or electricians union card can be a blessing as all you need to do is chase the work and the locals deal with the contractors for you. I know our local is always short welders.

Best of luck.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

eejack said:


> No but I have played in the industrial strength 'browning agent' they use to brown and flavor Ritz crackers. Slickest schtuff on earth.


 
Browning Agent huh? Is this the new title for Organizer? :whistling2:






Sorry, couldn't help myself:jester:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wendon said:


> :laughing::laughing: Is it possible to join the union when you own your business!!


Yes. I know a couple of contractor/card carrying members. Usually it is a specialty - like BJ's testing schtuff, or instrumentation. Sometimes it is just a small shop.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

eejack, you really didn't have to PM me this. You could have just put it here for all to see:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> eejack, you really didn't have to PM me this. You could have just put it here for all to see:
> 
> 
> View attachment 20600


Oh...it isn't bad enough that you lie in nearly every post you make, now you have the bad taste to say I pm'd you.

No wonder you feel persecuted - you do it to yourself.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

Nothing gets mcclary upset faster than a sticker. Lol.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

This ****ing ******** thread is still going?


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