# Burnt siemens panel



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I've dealt with all brands burning up. Nothing terribly unusual about it. 

I haven't used a Siemens panel lately but I have used Murray which are identical and the 100 amp main breaker bolted onto the bus bars. Where was the actual burn up?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

boots 211 said:


> Has any one else had issue with Seimens 20 circuit 100 amp main breaker panels. i have had two recently burn up where main breaker attaches to buss bar. These were the aluminum buss.



Can't be possible. According to the general concensus here, only an FPE panel is dangerous and must be replaced immediately .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Can't be possible. According to the general concensus here, only an FPE panel is dangerous and must be replaced immediately .


I agree, only an PFE panel should be replaced immediately. Siemens doesn't have a track record of issues nor do homeowner's insurance companies require them to be replaced.

boots 211, I haven't seen or heard of issues with Siemens panels, where was the issue exactly?


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## boots 211 (Aug 21, 2009)

The issue was where breaker attaches to the buss bar, both panels i had problems with were the same buss, the top one. the buss has a rough burnt spot , breaker shows signs of getting hot ,from bad connection, when i took the breaker off the buss bar, the tab was obviously heating up and very weak, would bend easily.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The bolts were tight?

Were these panels that you found in random customer's homes, or did you install them and buy them from the same place nearly the same time?


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## boots 211 (Aug 21, 2009)

They were stab on breakers. Both panels were in customer's homes, one was installed about 10 yrs ago the other was 8 yrs according to inspection stickers.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

If backfed mains, did they have the tie down clips? Did the wire put undue pressure on the lugs? Was aluminum wire used? Did the wire insulation appear melted, overheated or discolored?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

boots 211 said:


> These were the aluminum buss.


Was it really aluminum or tinned copper? If aluminum did the breaker have NOALOX (antioxidation compound) applied to the breaker by the manufacturer or by the installer?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Was it really aluminum or tinned copper? If aluminum did the breaker have NOALOX (antioxidation compound) applied to the breaker by the manufacturer or by the installer?


Most Siemens and Murray panels have aluminum buses. You can buy the more expensive PL line which has a copper bus, but it’s hard to find those in supply houses.

I have never heard of someone putting Noalox on a breaker to bus connection.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

boots 211 said:


> They were stab on breakers. Both panels were in customer's homes, one was installed about 10 yrs ago the other was 8 yrs according to inspection stickers.


I'm trying to picture a Siemens panel with a stab-on main breaker. I know they existed once upon a time, but I'm almost certain they switched to the bolted design more than 10 years ago. The 100 amp MB panel is extremely common in my area due to all the apartment buildings and I remember installing 100 amp MB 20 circuit Murray panels back then on occasion and they were bolt on.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Did these customers have any relation, like in the same building or development?

It sounds like they added a backfed 100A breaker to an MLO panel.


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## boots 211 (Aug 21, 2009)

This was a factory main breaker panel. Model #2020MB 1100. it has red plastic lock to keep breaker locked in. The wires showed no sign of trouble, no excess strain on breaker. This was same on both panels.


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## boots 211 (Aug 21, 2009)

There was no relationship to the panels one in city , the other in rural area.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I think it was just sheer coincidence.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Siemens had a problem a few years back with low tension on plug-in breakers. Breakers were missing a clip where they stab in meant to keep tension on the buss. Some were so bad that tightening the wire to the breaker caused the breaker to fall out.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Were they installed below grade in a basement, top fed, stubbed from outside, in a colder area?
Could cold air have migrated in and condensed in the pipe, on the wires and trickled down?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Most Siemens and Murray panels have aluminum buses. You can buy the more expensive PL line which has a copper bus, but it’s hard to find those in supply houses.


Interesting you say this. Our Seimens supply house only carries the copper bus.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Most Siemens and Murray panels have aluminum buses. You can buy the more expensive PL line which has a copper bus, but it’s hard to find those in supply houses.
> 
> I have never heard of someone putting Noalox on a breaker to bus connection.


My local supplier only carries Copper Buss in Siemens. They experienced too many problems with aluminum.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

They will all do that if they are in a damp location. They have a very bad reputation in Dairy barns and are probably the reason for code changes not allowing panels in barns.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Forge Boyz said:


> Interesting you say this. Our Seimens supply house only carries the copper bus.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk





NoBot said:


> My local supplier only carries Copper Buss in Siemens. They experienced too many problems with aluminum.


I guess it’s just around here. I have looked for the PL series and can’t find them locally.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NoBot said:


> Siemens had a problem a few years back with low tension on plug-in breakers. Breakers were missing a clip where they stab in meant to keep tension on the buss. Some were so bad that tightening the wire to the breaker caused the breaker to fall out.


I've found all the Siemens breakers from a long time frame are like that, even the ones they didn't recall.


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## boots 211 (Aug 21, 2009)

Were they installed below grade in a basement, top fed, stubbed from outside, in a colder area?
Could cold air have migrated in and condensed in the pipe, on the wires and trickled down?

One was located in basement, the other in first floor outside wall


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

NoBot said:


> My local supplier only carries Copper Buss in Siemens. They experienced too many problems with aluminum.



I've brought this up before.


Hackwork and I went back and forth on it, he figures I have a location bias that makes aluminum buss panels more common and thus more experiences with failed aluminum buss panels.



I simply think aluminum buss panels suck and use them as little as possible.


Bad thing is, Siemens only makes aluminum bussed metermains, so I have to give a little on that one.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Did you use a torque wrench or torque screwdriver? NEC 2017 110.14.D


I am being facetious from a post last week about torque screwdrivers and torque wrenches.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Was it really aluminum or tinned copper? If aluminum did the breaker have NOALOX (antioxidation compound) applied to the breaker by the manufacturer or by the installer?


NOALOX :wallbash:


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Pictures?????


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Forge Boyz said:


> Interesting you say this. Our Seimens supply house only carries the copper bus.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


Scott Electric ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Cow said:


> I've brought this up before.
> 
> 
> Hackwork and I went back and forth on it, he figures I have a location bias that makes aluminum buss panels more common and thus more experiences with failed aluminum buss panels.
> ...


I think what we see ourselves, and even what a group sees collectively, is not very good information when determining things like this. I think scientific testing with solid controls in place is the only true way to do it.

For example, in another thread going on right now someone mentioned that all the members of his union agree that putting a cordless drill's selector switch into the center position will stop it from draining the batteries while in storage. This is apparently many people who said that they know this to be true, while many of us feel they are incorrect.

For a long time I was one of the people who always said that Square D QO was the best panel and breaker, and thought the breakers tripped much faster and had less issues- until I started seeing a lot of QO's burnt up as well as large burn marks on walls when the QO breaker didn't trip fast enough.

So personal experience passed around don't seem to mean very much. The OP saw 2 Siemens panels burnt up and might use that to stop using them and switch to Homeline himself, while the electrician next door to him might have seen 15 Homeline panels burnt up. 

Ultimately I feel if an aluminum bus was an issue, it wouldn't pass all the tests and be listed in the same way. I am sure that a breaker panel goes thru very hard testing to get that listing. This is only my personal belief, but I think a burnt up breaker-bus connection is almost always due to the breaker like some people mentioned above, or it not being installed correctly (conductors too tight and pulling it off).


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I have never heard of someone putting Noalox on a breaker to bus connection.


New Murray breakers come from the factory with a dab of it on them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> New Murray breakers come from the factory with a dab of it on them.


I'm pretty sure that I have seen some type of compound on breakers before, but I forget which ones.

But I think most of them come dry and most electrician don't apply it themselves. I could be wrong on that.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I think what we see ourselves, and even what a group sees collectively, is not very good information when determining things like this. * I think scientific testing with solid controls in place is the only true way to do it.*
> 
> For example, in another thread going on right now someone mentioned that all the members of his union agree that putting a cordless drill's selector switch into the center position will stop it from draining the batteries while in storage. This is apparently many people who said that they know this to be true, while many of us feel they are incorrect.
> 
> ...



A couple quick examples of your comparison between scientific testing may show and real world experience:


Scientific testing said the older emt compression fittings were rain tight, until one day a few years ago they weren't. Then they made manufacturers switch to the more modern o-ring style emt raintight connectors to maintain the waterproof/raintight rating.


Real world experience says that little black rubber washer pooches out under minimal torque and eventually splits, cracks, and falls apart. Real world experience had me siliconing 8 emt rt conn last Friday because scientific testing said they were listed for the job as intended but failed and ultimately led to water soaked, shorted equipment inside the enclosure.


Scientific testing says the UL listed Cooper B Line 800 amp CT cabinet perches with mechanical set screw lugs are rated to take down to a #4 at the torque rating stated on the label.


Real world experience shows the lug strips out before reaching rated torque.


Scientific testing works great in a controlled environment, the problem is no one installs their work in a controlled environment. And I'm not saying folks are installing incorrectly, I just don't believe scientific testing can go through every scenario an installer or product will see in the field over the years.



The bottom line, in my opinion, is to use your best judgement.


If I see something fail on more regular basis than another product, I can say the sheer quantity of that installed product alone is the reason I see more instances of failure. That is certainly one possibility. I could say the same about back stabbed receps too.


However, I will choose more often than not to take a safer route and switch products or methods as a result of what I see failing in the field.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> NOALOX :wallbash:


Does nothing


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

My supplier switched to Siemens only about a year ago. Only carries PL series.

I’ve noticed that everything comes in waves. I won’t touch 8’ Florescent single pin lights for 2 years then get back to back calls from customers wanting to repair/upgrade to LED.

Next day I’ll get 3 generator calls in a row. 

Nothing but coincidence..... I think


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