# Do you pull permits on every job where permits are required?



## five.five-six

I will make this a private poll so no one "outs" themselves.


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## Shockdoc

NO, it avoids those costly useless AFCI breakers and outlets.


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## five.five-six

First post and I am rethinking the anonymous poll idea.


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## HARRY304E

five.five-six said:


> First post and I am rethinking the anonymous poll idea.


If you get bagged here they can and will revoke your license even if they just fine you your license becomes permanently marked.


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## five.five-six

HARRY304E said:


> If you get bagged here they can and will revoke your license even if they just fine you your license becomes permanently marked.


I think that's technically true in California, though I have never heard of it being done.


EDIT:

Seems they really take permitting seriously in: Climate Change Is a Hoax!!!


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## Shockdoc

Out here they just issue a Stop Work Order, no license reprimands. Just apply for a permit and return to work.


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## papaotis

aww, harry, thats no fun!:laughing:


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## HARRY304E

five.five-six said:


> I think that's technically true in California, though I have never heard of it being done.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Seems they really take permitting seriously in: Climate Change Is a Hoax!!!


Yes,and they enjoy punishment, especially the Plumbers board:laughing:


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## chicken steve

We pull permits, but the system is far from perfect. Anyone who resides in a state with 3-4 EI's for _thousands_ of us can attest to this.

Many times my job(s) will be done & paid for _before_ i even get the paper copy w/stamped approval back from the state , and i've had public buildings occupied for _years _before an EI could be had to final me out

The bad news is state bureaucracy is _always_ going to maintain it's own pace no matter what the market is doing, the good news is some of the EI's know this and will work with you.


~CS~


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## aftershockews

Do you guys pull a permit to change out a bad receptacle on a TC?
Or to change out a light fixture?


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## chicken steve

Depends on what is considered a _'repair'_ or _'install'_ Ashock

Usually the dif is defined as _'pulling any wire' _

That said, the ever eloquent grey _'maintenance'_ terminology allows for maint men to boldly go where no permit has gone before here....


~CS~


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## sparky402

I always try to if its not just service call stuff. If we get caught without one we get charged 4x the fee.


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## Spunk#7

Permits?


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## macmikeman

I don't usually take out a permit here, but over at Mike Holt I take one out every single time........


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## five.five-six

are you even an electrician?


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## macmikeman

five.five-six said:


> are you even an electrician?


Perhaps. Maybe not.......


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## Shockdoc

.............If you give a crackhead money, he will advise his friends and they all will return asking for more. 

Kind of like giving money out for permits and taxes.


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## electricmanscott

Anyone that answers yes is a liar!


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## BBQ

electricmanscott said:


> Anyone that answers yes is a liar!


:thumbsup:

I found Harry's answer funny. :laughing:


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## backstay

electricmanscott said:


> Anyone that answers yes is a liar!


Do you pull permits on every job where permits are required?

Yes


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## aftershockews

backstay said:


> Do you pull permits on every job where permits are required?
> 
> Yes


here, changing out a light fixture requires a permit.


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## chicken steve

electricmanscott said:


> Anyone that answers yes is a liar!


excuse me while i go find my halo......:whistling2:

~CS~


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## chicken steve

Not to take away the OP's thunder but, It'd be nice to reframe the Q a little.

My Q would be, are you happy with the _service_ you get when you DO pull a permit


~CS~


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## Jlarson

**** no, don't have time for that nonsense.


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## FrunkSlammer

I pull a permit for every reply I make on this website.


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## Rollie73

Where permits are required....we pul a permit. 

Different people have different definitions of _required._


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## cortez

I rarely need to pull a permit ( new construction is the only exception where multiple trades must also pull them). 

Insurance work often require a permit but now a days it is all electronic and a simple drive to the local ward office-real quick. 

That is the advantage of doing political work for the party. :thumbup: 

Political work is easy and not time consuming except around voting time and it pays off a hundred fold.


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## Southeast Power

Self-incrimination[edit]

The Fifth Amendment protects individuals from being forced to incriminate themselves. Incriminating oneself is defined as exposing oneself (or another person) to "an accusation or charge of crime," or as involving oneself (or another person) "in a criminal prosecution or the danger thereof."[33] The privilege against compelled self-incrimination is defined as "the constitutional right of a person to refuse to answer questions or otherwise give testimony against himself or herself. ... "[34] To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer any question because "the implications of the question, in the setting in which it is asked" lead a claimant to possess a "reasonable cause to apprehend danger from a direct answer", believing that "a responsive answer to the question or an explanation of why it cannot be answered might be dangerous because injurious disclosure could result."[35]
Historically, the legal protection against compelled self-incrimination was directly related to the question of torture for extracting information and confessions.[36][37]
The legal shift away from widespread use of torture and forced confession dates to turmoil of the late 16th and early 17th century in England.[38] Anyone refusing to take the oath ex officio mero (confessions or swearing of innocence, usually before hearing any charges) was considered guilty.[38] Suspected Puritans were pressed to take the oath and then reveal names of other Puritans. Coercion and torture were commonly used to compel "cooperation." Puritans, who were at the time fleeing to the New World, began a practice of refusing to cooperate with interrogations. In the most famous case John Lilburne refused to take the oath in 1637. His case and his call for "freeborn rights" were rallying points for reforms against forced oaths, forced self-incrimination, and other kinds of coercion. Oliver Cromwell's revolution overturned the practice and incorporated protections, in response to a popular group of English citizens known as the Levellers. The Levellers presented The Humble Petition of Many Thousands to Parliament in 1647 with 13 demands, third of which was the right against self-incrimination in criminal cases. These protections were brought to America by Puritans, and were later incorporated into the United States Constitution through the Bill of Rights.
Protection against compelled self-incrimination is implicit in the Miranda rights statement, which protects the "right to remain silent." This amendment is also similar to Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In other Commonwealth of Nations countries like Australia and New Zealand, the right to silence of the accused both during questioning and at trial is regarded as an important right inherited from common law, and is protected in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and in Australia through various federal and state acts and codes governing the criminal justice system.
The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances."[39]


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## chicken steve

cortez said:


> I rarely need to pull a permit ( new construction is the only exception where multiple trades must also pull them).
> 
> Insurance work often require a permit but now a days it is all electronic and a simple drive to the local ward office-real quick.
> 
> That is the advantage of doing political work for the party. :thumbup:
> 
> Political work is easy and not time consuming except around voting time and it pays off a hundred fold.


I've been on those jobs where every state authority repetitively walks by unlicensed out of state workers who couldn't pull a permit if they wanted to

Even confronted those ahj's on doing so, the comeback being _'political'_ , and/or _'said & done above me'_

So yeah, permits, much like taxes, are for us _'wee folk'_

~CS~


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## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I found Harry's answer funny. :laughing:


That was the point...:whistling2::laughing:


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## glen1971

There is one site out here that hasn't had a permit pulled through the last $500,000 worth of work, by 2 different contractors.. The site hasn't had an inspection in at least 10 years.. 
Neither wanted to pull a permit for fear of what they would have to fix, from past electrical work.. After doing work there for the past 2 years, I am guessing that they didn't want a permit because their own work wouldn't have passed... So much crap has been worked on and hacked together over the years...
Any job I am doing there now over $3,000 (the level here where a permit is needed), I am pulling a permit to at least cover my a$$..


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## rivermanchris

*Permit*

This is a great reason to buy a permit, get the inspection and do the job right.


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## MTW

I pull a permit even if I'm just replacing a wirenut. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Chris1971

MTW said:


> I pull a permit even if I'm just replacing a wirenut.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Ultrafault

They said electrician in that video. Someone who uses the ground as anything other that a ground is not even a plumber.


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## MTW

Chris1971 said:


>


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## dronai

The other day I had to pull a permit for two dedicated circuits for two separate apartments for the new laundry rooms. Panels were 4' away in the hallway. The city would not let me pull the permits unless I submitted a floorplan drawing of the whole apartment unit !!! What a waste of time.


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## Legacyelectric

I pull permits when poco is involved, or if there is building going on. I use to be a staunch permit puller but I've gotten a little jaded. In my area it is painfully obvious the a permit fee more or less amounts to a tax that isn't called a tax. I have met inspectors to pick up green tags for jobs they've never seen (nice they trust me, but kind of defeats the purpose). I'm sure this type of thing is commonplace. Head inspector a few years back also had an EC business, nice. I'd rather just the parish charge more for the annual license fee and call it a done deal.


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## MTW

dronai said:


> The other day I had to pull a permit for two dedicated circuits for two separate apartments for the new laundry rooms. Panels were 4' away in the hallway. The city would not let me pull the permits unless I submitted a floorplan drawing of the whole apartment unit !!! What a waste of time.


That's insane. We don't have to do that for small jobs.


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## chicken steve

My state, in it's infinite wisdom, decided some situations do not require a license, but require a permit & inspection

It's usually a real F story.....

~CS~


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## Chris1971

Permit obtained if required. Not worth losing contractors license over not getting a permit.


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## MTW

Chris1971 said:


> Permit obtained if required. Not worth losing contractors license over not getting a permit.



:sleep1:


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Chris1971

Breaking the law is immoral. Why do it?


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## Dennis Alwon

NC has a law that has been on the books for some time now but only a few areas have started to enforce it. Unfortunately , IMO, they are interpreting it incorrectly.

Basically if it is a commercial job and the building has a tax value of $90,000 or the building is over 2,500 sq.ft then an engineers seal is required.

So a local EC went to get a permit to hang 2 track lights in a bar and the inspections dept refused it because he didn't have an engineers seal. Now we are talking about a few hundred dollar job that will need a permit- $50 or so and then an engineers seal- $400-$500. It is no wonder people are refusing to get permits


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## Chris1971

Dennis Alwon said:


> NC has a law that has been on the books for some time now but only a few areas have started to enforce it. Unfortunately , IMO, they are interpreting it incorrectly.
> 
> Basically if it is a commercial job and the building has a tax value of $90,000 or the building is over 2,500 sq.ft then an engineers seal is required.
> 
> So a local EC went to get a permit to hang 2 track lights in a bar and the inspections dept refused it because he didn't have an engineers seal. Now we are talking about a few hundred dollar job that will need a permit- $50 or so and then an engineers seal- $400-$500. It is no wonder people are refusing to get permits


So, what happens if the EC gets caught not getting a permit?:001_huh:


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## Dennis Alwon

Chris1971 said:


> So, what happens if the EC gets caught not getting a permit?:001_huh:


Not sure-- generally if they know you they will just make you get the permit and give you alot of grief. Some areas may take you to the board of examiners and they decide your fate


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## chicken steve

My opinion is permits and licensure are to ensure a level playing field for merit _(consumer protection & safety following suit)_ to prosper in the market. 

Not to pick on your state, mine has similar pitfalls.... but your ex. is kinda detrimental to this Denny....

~CS~


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## Going_Commando

chicken steve said:


> My opinion is permits and licensure are to ensure a level playing field for merit (consumer protection & safety following suit) to prosper in the market.
> 
> Not to pick on your state, mine has similar pitfalls.... but your ex. is kinda detrimental to this Denny....
> 
> ~CS~


Disagree entirely. Permits are required so the tax departments can keep track of changes to property so they can boost up your property values. Licensing is to earn the state revenue with the side benefit of the appearance of an increase in life safety due to trained persons. 90% of inspections are a farce put on by untrained persons and does nothing to improve life safety. It's all a big ol' sh!t sandwich that we take a nice big bite from to work in this trade.


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## MTW

Going_Commando said:


> Disagree entirely. Permits are required so the tax departments can keep track of changes to property so they can boost up your property values. Licensing is to earn the state revenue with the side benefit of the appearance of an increase in life safety due to trained persons. 90% of inspections are a farce put on by untrained persons and does nothing to improve life safety. It's all a big ol' sh!t sandwich that we take a nice big bite from to work in this trade.


I agree, it's as much of a joke here too. The whole licensing and inspection process is a formality. It's really done nothing to weed out hacks or unskilled people.


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## Chris1971

They've increased the fines for breaking the rules. Unfortunately they haven't increased enforcement.


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## bartstop

The inspectors are busy enough as it is. I'm not going to get them involved unless it's absolutely necessary.


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## chicken steve

Chris1971 said:


> They've increased the fines for breaking the rules. Unfortunately they haven't increased enforcement.


Same plan as Vermont then Chris? 

i'm sure we can trade notes on how that's workin' out....

~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical

Nwih...


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## five.five-six

chicken steve said:


> Same plan as Vermont then Chris?
> 
> i'm sure we can trade notes on how that's workin' out....
> 
> ~CS~


You can be just down right nasty.......


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## FrunkSlammer

Didn't pull a permit for the last kitchen reno I did for some "designer/GC". Next one I will, she was a super *p*ain *i*n *t*he *a*rse. The next quote will have a hefty PITA tax added to it.


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## backstay

FrunkSlammer said:


> Didn't pull a permit for the last kitchen reno I did for some "designer/GC". Next one I will, she was a super pain in the arse. The next quote will have a hefty PITA tax added to it.


You are a piece of crap, thief!


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## macmikeman

backstay said:


> You are a piece of crap, thief!


Worse than that. He is scum. Lowlife scum.


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## MTW

macmikeman said:


> Worse than that. He is scum. Lowlife scum.


How could he be? He is the moral high ground, the mighty defender of the earth and natural resources.


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## The_Modifier

Wow, now we're back to the old days of cross contaminating posts! Well done guys. Now even more members besides the one that figured out a backdoor to exploit the points system that doesn't even work- world wide (only for The Yanks) and apparently "nobody cared for"will get banned. :laughing:


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## aftershockews

We pull permits on everything from additions to changing a light bulb.
Trust me.


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## MTW

Permits and inspections are anti-American.


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## Chris1971

MTW said:


> Permits and inspections are anti-American.


I agree. So is the NEC.


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## Switched

I have never ever done a job without a permit and before I had my license I never did a side job......Also, I sleep great every night!


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## longrf01

When it just my dad and brother, permits were, um, 'optional.'

Then my brother, cousin, sister, and I joined the family business. Sis has an MBA and (rightfully so) flipped out and pointed out our liability insurance would hang us out to dry if, G-d forbid, an non-permitted job went south. 

As dad says "I sent my kids to college so they wouldn't make the same mistakes and damn if they didn't come home wanting to do everything different."


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## chicken steve

MTW said:


> Permits and inspections are anti-American.


That made me spit G&T out my nose you b*stard! :laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


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## chicken steve

So i gotta ask the EC's here, why not use permits and inspections to your advantage ?


~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical

Hell no


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## MTW

chicken steve said:


> That made me spit G&T out my nose you b*stard! :laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


:laughing:


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## chicken steve

mcclary's electrical said:


> Hell no


Really? can't you massholes get $$$ _before _you call for a final?

How does it work there?

~CS~


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## chicken steve

We had 3 inspections yesterday , for work completed months ago. 

This is as fast as our understaffed _'public safety' _dept. can operate 

~CS~


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## MDShunk

fullload said:


> To many people doing electrical work that are not licensed and they can't pull permits so I'm sure there's a lot of work that goes unseen . A lot of businesses have electrical work done without permits as well


Take a guess at how much of the US, in percent, where people are 1) required to be licensed and 2) required to pull a permit for electrical work, and 3) required to be licensed to pull a permit? If you did your own research about that, it may surprise you.

I'm still kinda curious about something. Why does a guy, who seems to market to the resi customer, get so twisted up about places like Global?


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## MTW

A permit is nothing more than a permission slip and tax from the government to make your living.


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## MTW

fullload said:


> To many people doing electrical work that are not licensed and they can't pull permits so I'm sure there's a lot of work that goes unseen . A lot of businesses have electrical work done without permits as well


Why is that a problem? Do you want the government to tell you when you can go to the bathroom?


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## sbrn33

MTW said:


> A permit is nothing more than a permission slip and tax from the government to make your living.


Not really true. They inspect things and make sure it is up to code.


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## NacBooster29

In most of new england most homeowners can pull their own permits.


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## MTW

fullload said:


> No I want the government to weed out wannabe electricians that don't have a license and do our work for less and drive our wages down . If not for inspectors and permits that pay their wage we would have a bunch of hillbillies pulling wire and as long as the light turns on they think they did it right


Inspections do not weed out anything. The inspection process is as corrupt as the government itself. 



fullload said:


> Non electricians do work that is obvious to skilled electricians and inspectors to know if it was done right. Most non electricians don't know code as well as a electrician but I'm starting to learn where this site comes in handy for these guys



Again, so what? Who cares what other people do? If anything, you should be thankful for non-electricians doing work because it creates more work for us.


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## MTW

sbrn33 said:


> Not really true. They inspect things and make sure it is up to code.


If you believe that, I have the Brooklyn Bridge available for sale.


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## RIVETER

five.five-six said:


> I will make this a private poll so no one "outs" themselves.


Let us know why you would NOT.


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## papaotis

here the min. is $50. im not going to get a permit to hang a ceiling fan or add an outlet!:no:


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## 120/208

chicken steve said:


> That made me spit G&T out my nose you b*stard! :laughing:~CS~:whistling2:


I know, I just spit up my Jack & Coke after reading this thread.:laughing:


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## cad99

I know we are referencing straight out electrical permits. But I live in a small town that requires a $50 permit for anything over $400 regardless of what project it is . I got warned more then once on this 
My reply is who is coming to inspect?they reply no one it is for documentation.so in some places it makes not a lick of sense. My hometown were I grew up you needed a building permit to paint a wall and be inspected by the local f.d. I did a mud room addition there last year and all they cared about it smoke alarms. Had to put smokes in mudroon living room and kitchen. Because they had all the power. Also I can't blame people who don't pull for smaller stuff I had a couple jobs where the inspector had us go back and correct all existing violations in a 35 year old building. There is no way to bid competitive without a total walk through,and how often does that happen. Rant over. 


Living the dream one nightmare at a time.


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## sbrn33

MTW said:


> If you believe that, I have the Brooklyn Bridge available for sale.


Maybe it is not the process in your area as much as the inspectors. 
Without permits the handymen would rule in the resi game. Inspection departments keep us licensed guys in business. 
That being said, when I know I am going to draw a certain inspector I may go without one.


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## chicken steve

cad99 said:


> Living the dream one nightmare at a time.


Same here Cad

and if a handyman beats me out, the state has no teeth to go after him

I've told a few of folks you're better off not having a license doing electrical work here, than having one

But i guess you'd have to be in biz for yourself & dreamin' away to really get it

~CS~


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## Mountain Electrician

chicken steve said:


> We pull permits, but the system is far from perfect. Anyone who resides in a state with 3-4 EI's for _thousands_ of us can attest to this.
> 
> Many times my job(s) will be done & paid for _before_ i even get the paper copy w/stamped approval back from the state , and i've had public buildings occupied for _years _before an EI could be had to final me out
> 
> The bad news is state bureaucracy is _always_ going to maintain it's own pace no matter what the market is doing, the good news is some of the EI's know this and will work with you.
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Same here, my inspector told me years ago not to wait for him for insulation, sheetrock, etc. The last good sized job (school) I did, he inspected the first floor rough in, and I never saw him again after that. Residential NEVER, permits not required by state. Industrial NEVER, permit not required by state. With the geographical area he covers, scheduling him is nearly impossible. Haven't seen him on a small job in 5 years.


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## RIVETER

five.five-six said:


> I will make this a private poll so no one "outs" themselves.


This is a professional forum. I do NOT!!!


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## Shockdoc

No shame in my game, i beat the system every chance i get.


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## lighterup

In Ohio , a "repair" does not require a permit. A modification
alteration , addition and new build does ( unless the new
build is proven to be for agricultural use ).

I advertise all work to require a permit , so I am probably
weeding out alot of jobs where owners do not want a permit.


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## Magnettica

aftershockews said:


> Do you guys pull a permit to change out a bad receptacle on a TC?
> Or to change out a light fixture?


Nope, that's why I have a license and New Jersey says I do not need a permit for small repairs such as this. They do require that I collect sales tax for any repair, such as for a bad receptacle or changing out a light fixture. The sales tax collection is waved for a capital improvement such as an addition, or a new standby generator.


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## PlugsAndLights

Here in Ontario you can also get in trouble with the ESA (electrical safety authority)
if you let the property owner take out the permit rather than taking it out yourself. 
Seems odd, would've thought they'd be happy as long as it's inspected (and the ESA
gets paid), but that is NOT the case. 
Beware.


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## FaultCurrent

There is some attempt at enforcement here. The CSLB is always out and about.

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Media_Room/Press_Releases/2015/November_23-2.aspx


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## lj973gm

Always


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