# Union Vote



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Perhaps the most debated _'detail'_ in recent history is the Card Check Aegis


~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Aegis said:


> Im just wondering about the details of a union vote. If a vote happens and it's for the company to go union, will the designated master/owner always be attached to the union forever? I remember something about an owner can't close down shop when a vote happens and simply start a new company to avoid going union. But does this last forever?


Find out who started it and fire him.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

When I was an apprentice a union vote happened at the company I was working for. 30 Employees. My boss came up to one of the most trusted in our company and said "hey, wanna work for another company?". Basically he was thinking of shutting down the company and opening a new one free from the union. 

Anyway the union vote happened, split 15/15 right down the middle but they didn't count one vote because one guy had been back to work for only 2.5 months and not 3...

The company went union and it started making the transition. I was wondering if my boss at the time could actually close up his company and go start a one man shop by himself at that point. Unless someone threatened him...


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Aegis said:


> Unless someone threatened him...


I can say with absolute certainty that no contractor would ever be threatened in THIS local. To the contrary, they'd get the man a beer, steak, and a blow job every night until he came on board.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm still not clear on this. Can an electrical contractor leave the union and go none union? Or do they have him for life?


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Aegis said:


> I'm still not clear on this. Can an electrical contractor leave the union and go none union? Or do they have him for life?


They can, i seen it first hand


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Aegis said:


> I'm still not clear on this. Can an electrical contractor leave the union and go none union? Or do they have him for life?


Technically yes. The contractor would have to go to court and try to get out. I think Ludvik from colorado did this. Or in our local a contractor kept his union shop "open," but never bid on any work and simply opened up another shop that was non union. 

I am sure our local could of gone down the legal road but I think the union shop was a small shop and our local didn't want the hassle.

What ever you do not fire someone for wanting to go union. That is a lawsuit in the works.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

They can shut down the company at any time. Open up a new shop and go non-union again. 
IBEW is not a dictatorship that can force its ideals and rules upon anyone. Membership is voluntary at all times.

I have personally seen union shops shut down only to re-open as a non-union shop a few months down the road often with the some of the same employees.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Then a union vote is not the end of the world for those who want to stay non-union. Those that voted yes go into the hall and the rest can stay put and re-open if they want.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I've seen it Aegis. The rules here in IBEW District 1, which is what Canada falls under,are slightly different than that of our US counterparts. The need for licensing everywhere in this country certainly changes how our apprenticeship agreements work.....some of our legislations are different here as well and they affect exactly how much power the IBEW has or does NOT have when trying to organize a shop.

If the employees vote for it.....then the shop will go union. The owner/management can shut it down and lay-off all the employees. Later he is completely able to open a new shop. There are no clauses stating that the owner MUST become a union shop owner for the rest of his/her life and that all subsequent business they may own must become unionized as well.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Aegis said:


> Then a union vote is not the end of the world for those who want to stay non-union. Those that voted yes go into the hall and the rest can stay put and re-open if they want.


Not really.

The company would need to basically eliminate its entire workforce and dissolve, then reopen as a new company ( or at least that is how it works in the US ).

However, for those that wish to stay non union, nothing is preventing them from leaving that company and going to work someplace else.

Most good companies, when faced with this situation, find a way to make their employees happy without going to a vote. There are many good non union outfits out there, usually the whole voting thing only comes up when the company is crap and treating their employees like crap.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Walmart opened a store in Jonquiere, Quebec. A short time later the employees unionized in a vote 53 to 47 (United Food and Commercial Workers Union). No collective agreement was made and Walmart closed the store. Company said the store wasn't profitable. They just opened a new Walmart down the road in a neighbouring town and the employees knew better than to organize. 

That's how real business is done.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> Not really.
> 
> The company would need to basically eliminate its entire workforce and dissolve, then reopen as a new company ( or at least that is how it works in the US ).
> 
> ...


Why can't the guys that want to be union leave the company and find another job rather than force the company to become a union shop?

Why should they guys that are happy with their work situation and wish to remain non-union be forced to leave and find a different job?

This is my problem with salting or shop flipping. If a company chooses to be non-union and employees choose to work there, they are making a choice to work non-union. If you want to be in the union then go join, don't screw me over in the process and make me have to find a new job. I don't want to be union, so I choose to work for a non-union shop. I wouldn't get a job with a union shop and then try to force them to go non-union. Of course things don't work that way anyway because all of the labor laws are written in favor of the unions. When it comes to these types of issues the non-union companies already have the deck stacked against them. The union can picket jobsites and make any untrue/slanderous acusations against the company they want with no repercusions, but if the owner of a company makes even the slightest negative comment about the union the "unfair labor practice" lawsuits come flying.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for the answers, just looking into the future on what can happen.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> Why can't the guys that want to be union leave the company and find another job rather than force the company to become a union shop?
> 
> Why should they guys that are happy with their work situation and wish to remain non-union be forced to leave and find a different job?
> 
> This is my problem with salting or shop flipping. If a company chooses to be non-union and employees choose to work there, they are making a choice to work non-union. If you want to be in the union then go join, don't screw me over in the process and make me have to find a new job. I don't want to be union, so I choose to work for a non-union shop. I wouldn't get a job with a union shop and then try to force them to go non-union. Of course things don't work that way anyway because all of the labor laws are written in favor of the unions. When it comes to these types of issues the non-union companies already have the deck stacked against them. The union can picket jobsites and make any untrue/slanderous acusations against the company they want with no repercusions, but if the owner of a company makes even the slightest negative comment about the union the "unfair labor practice" lawsuits come flying.


Our local salting agreement pretty much states you can't be **** and cause trouble for the non union shop. I think things are changing for the IBEW. Heavy handed tactics are not very effective and I think most locals do not even engage in it.

Unfortunately there will always be half truths and down right lies that come from both sides. The problem the IBEW will always have is perception. If a non union guy is a lazy piece of crap and causes problems then he is just a piece of crap. 

If a union guy is a lazy piece of crap then the IBEW and its members are seen as lazy pieces of crap. A few bad apples can cause a reputation problem for a whole local and the IBEW.

Of course the solution would be to get them removed from the IBEW, but again, a perception problem would happen. If the IBEW kicked them out for being bad apples then they would be bitter towards the union and talk about how "horrible" the union is.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mr hands said:


> I can say with absolute certainty that no contractor would ever be threatened in THIS local. To the contrary, they'd get the man a beer, steak, and a blow job every night until he came on board.



You'd make a _great _rep Hands....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> Walmart opened a store in Jonquiere, Quebec. A short time later the employees unionized in a vote 53 to 47 (United Food and Commercial Workers Union). No collective agreement was made and Walmart closed the store. Company said the store wasn't profitable. They just opened a new Walmart down the road in a neighbouring town and the employees knew better than to organize.
> 
> That's how real business is done.


This was big news , at least to those who monitor the demise of collective labor Frunk

Fundamentally, if one can rise above the petty union/non union head butting, the implications are rather profound

~CS~


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah I'm sure there's been hundreds of other similar examples.. that one just stuck in my memory.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Jan 31, 2013)

Technically a union shop can vote to leave the union. Doesn't happen often though.

I've seen contracting groups that consisted of union companies with nonunion sisters companies owned by the same people. The union shop bid prevailing rate, public works projects, and the nonunion shop bid the rest of the work. Large tools were owned by a tool rental company, controlled by the owner. 

If the shops needed it, they reserved it, and if they didn't the public could rent it. There were vans and job trailers that either company could use depending on the work force they were carrying. Took a few hours to change out the sign boards on the sides.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Read WARN act. This in reference to closing and reopening. Ex: CF closes reopens as con-way freight this was a huge example where 15500 Teamster lost their jobs. If you have cash and lawyers you do as you please in America.:blink:


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I've seen a looong time union shop go non-union.

Everybody who worked for the shop went back to the hall and signed the books.

Ads went out on craigslist, and they were looking for help at 60 cents on the dollar of the journeyman scale.

I love the boners on here who cry about lazy union men. Guess what, it's my right to be lazy. If my employer doesn't need my help, then he can send me down the road. As an employee, it is in MY best interest to get paid the most money for the least amount of work. You guys who live your lives giving the best away for free..... well, that's just stupidness, and you don't know any better yet.


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