# GFCI near sink



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

No. 210.8(B).


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## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*Gfci*

210.8(B) DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY list a hairwash sink. This sink is not located in a bathroom, or kitchen in the hair salon.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Is there anywhere in 210.8(B) that says it _must_ be protected?

Then no, it does not have to be.

You will not find an Article that lists a *hairwash sink*. The term is not used in the Code.


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## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*Thanks Sparky*

I am arguing with another elec inspector in an adjoining jurisdiction. Thanks for your help


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Why didn't you say so? In that case, try one of these instead: 







 
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:​ 

You may also want to mention that the 6' rule is under the *dwelling* [210.8(*A*)] side of the issue.​


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Why argue over a $75 safety upgrade?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> Why argue over a $75 safety upgrade?


I gather the discussion is between two inspectors. Money doesn't matter in those types of debates.

Money _does_ matter, however, being an EC and you have an inspector trying to enforce their own 'personal' code as opposed to what is printed & published.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Idaho Abe said:


> If a receptacle is below the counterop level and within 6 feet of a commercial hairwash sink does it need to be GFCI protected?? I need direct NEC code reference.


I could be wrong but, doesn't Idaho adopt the 2008 NEC in July of this year?

A new section has been added to section 210.8(B) in the 2008. Here is what 210.8(B)(5) says:

"(5) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.
Exception No 1 to (5): In industrial laboratories, receptacles used to supply equipment where removal of power would introduce a greater hazard shall be permitted to be installed without GFCI protection.
Exception No 2 to (5): For receptacles located in patient care areas of health care facilities other than those covered under 210.8(B)(1), GFCI protection shall not be required."

So when Idaho adopts the 2008 NEC you will need to GFCI protect a receptacle in a situation such as you have discribed.

Chris


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## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

*Gfci*

Thanks Chris My jurisdiction has not YET adopted the 2008 we are still under 2005 for the time being. The holdup is AFCI & tamper receptacle, is gumming up my code board of appeals.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Your welcome,

I had heard that Idaho was going to amend out the expansion of AFCI in the 2008 NEC before they adopt it, but hadn't heard that they were thinking of eliminating the tamper resistant receptacle requirement.

Chris


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No. 210.8(B).


YEP. Thats that.

2008 NEC: 210.8 (B) 5- "sinks -- where recepticals are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the OUTSIDE EDGE of the sink.

This would read up down over and across, But not under. So no change.

Ask the AHJ. No answer I'ld bet. Then no change.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Idaho Abe said:


> I am arguing with another elec inspector in an adjoining jurisdiction. Thanks for your help


 
There should be no argument. You both have the same book, right?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

leland said:


> YEP. Thats that.
> 
> 2008 NEC: 210.8 (B) 5- "sinks -- where recepticals are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the OUTSIDE EDGE of the sink.
> 
> ...


It says within 6' feet of the sink, if the receptacle is under the countertop and within 6 feet of the outside edge of the sink my opinion is that it needs to be GFCI protected. I don't see where a receptacle under a countertop would be exempt from GFCI protection if it was within 6 feet of the edge of the sink.

JMHO,
Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

leland said:


> There should be no argument. You both have the same book, right?


Yes, everybody has the same book but not everybody reads it the same way.

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> It says within 6' feet of the sink, if the receptacle is under the countertop and within 6 feet of the outside edge of the sink my opinion is that it needs to be GFCI protected. I don't see where a receptacle under a countertop would be exempt from GFCI protection if it was within 6 feet of the edge of the sink.
> 
> JMHO,
> Chris


I see your point and agree but at the same time when wiring for a dishwasher and garbage disposal, I always put a duplex inside the sink base for them.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> I see your point and agree but at the same time when wiring for a dishwasher and garbage disposal, I always put a duplex inside the sink base for them.


I have had this problem before with disposals and dishwashers next to wet bar sinks in residential basements, IMHO these need to be GFCI protected if they are within 6 feet of the edge of the wetbar sink, even if they are under the counter. 

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> I have had this problem before with disposals and dishwashers next to wet bar sinks in residential basements, IMHO these need to be GFCI protected if they are within 6 feet of the edge of the wetbar sink, even if they are under the counter.
> 
> Chris


 
Did you fail the installers for them?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Did you fail the installers for them?


Yes, I cited 210.8(A)(7).

I also have to cite this section quite often for refrigerators where the receptacle is within 6 feet of the edge of a wetbar sink, but the receptacle is installed behind the refrigerator. Some electricians seem to think that exception #2 to 210.8(A)(2) or (A)(5) applys to 210.8(A)(7).

Chris


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> It says within 6' feet of the sink, if the receptacle is under the countertop and within 6 feet of the outside edge of the sink my opinion is that it needs to be GFCI protected. I don't see where a receptacle under a countertop would be exempt from GFCI protection if it was within 6 feet of the edge of the sink.
> 
> JMHO,
> Chris


Even with cabinet doors? If so, How about My situation:

Master bath, walk in from the bedroom straight into the bath and there is the sink (inside wall), Left hand swing on the door (against out side wall) Just outside the bathroom on bedroom wall (same outside wall) is a rec. in the bed room. With only the 4" door frame/jam seperating the 2 rooms. Total distance 5' 6".

(wish I knew how to draw it )

(Just for the record: I measured form the kitchen sink edge, down the front wrap around, under the bottom and down the back wall.

Yep 4'6" +-, You win that one! )


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

leland said:


> Even with cabinet doors? If so, How about My situation:
> 
> Master bath, walk in from the bedroom straight into the bath and there is the sink (inside wall), Left hand swing on the door (against out side wall) Just outside the bathroom on bedroom wall (same outside wall) is a rec. in the bed room. With only the 4" door frame/jam seperating the 2 rooms. Total distance 5' 6".
> 
> ...


It doesn't appear that the sink in your question is a wet bar, laundry or utility sink so 210.8(A)(7) would not apply. It appears that the sink in your question is a bathroom sink and only the receptacles in the bathroom need to be GFCI protected, not receptacles outside of the bathroom even if they are within 6 feet of the bathroom sink.

Chris


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Yes, I cited 210.8(A)(7).
> 
> I also have to cite this section quite often for refrigerators where the receptacle is within 6 feet of the edge of a wetbar sink, but the receptacle is installed behind the refrigerator. Some electricians seem to think that exception #2 to 210.8(A)(2) or (A)(5) applys to 210.8(A)(7).
> 
> Chris


I guess I have been lucky. I have never been cited for that and have always done them the same way. I would say next time it comes up I'll ask my boss and see what they want done.

As for behind the refrig., the only time I do an install like that is a break room, cafe, or a kitchenette and it is usually only 2' or so from the sink and I have installed a GFCI outlet. You never know what they will plug in and have on the counter.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

deleted


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

raider1 said:


> It doesn't appear that the sink in your question is a wet bar, laundry or utility sink so 210.8(A)(7) would not apply. It appears that the sink in your question is a bathroom sink and only the receptacles in the bathroom need to be GFCI protected, not receptacles outside of the bathroom even if they are within 6 feet of the bathroom sink.
> 
> Chris


 
Great answer. I'm wrong. Great discusion, I have not however run into this issue (under the sink-wet bar). All here let that slide. Enclosed I mite add.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

leland said:


> Great answer. I'm wrong. Great discusion, I have not however run into this issue (under the sink-wet bar). All here let that slide. Enclosed I mite add.


This has been a very good discussion.

Some people might interpret this code section differently then I do, but I don't see anything in the language of the code that would exempt an outlet underneath a counter, even if it was within a cabinet, from GFCI protection if it is within 6' from the edge of a wet bar sink.

Chris


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