# inspector making me install a 200 main disconnect for multi family.



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

How far is the panel he wants the disconnect for from where the cable enters the house??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Ask for a Code reference.


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## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

Don't really do resi. but isn't there something about grouping of the disconnects? So all 4 panels would need to be in the same location nearest the point of entrance.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jdawg523 said:


> My inspector is making me install a 200 amp main disconnect outside for a multi family house. But I kno I dnt need it according to the code an I even asked another inspector from another town an he agrees with me. Its a 3 family so 4 meters an 4 panel one being house meter an panel. I had asked my imspector before hand what he wanted an he never told me he wants dosconnect. Just asked if I could install meter bypass an also house meter which is all fine. Now that I'm done he says he kinda would like to see that disconnect. An failed it. What's my options?


Your post isn't real clear! Where does he want the disconnect? Between the Meter socket and the main indoor panel? Does your inspector tell you what type of meter socket to use? Why would installing a bypass meter eliminate the need for a disconnect. I would suspect it's a 230.70 issue. Our state code says it has to be within 8 feet of where the conductors enter the wall.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

There are no "local" codes in MA. If you comply with the NEC/MEC you are good to go regardless of what the inspector "wants".

Give me a little more info on the job.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

What size conductors are you using to feed the four meters ? 4/0 Al? And do your four meters all have 100 amp mains attached to them? This might be the reason if so.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> There are no "local" codes in MA. If you comply with the NEC/MEC you are good to go regardless of what the inspector "wants".
> 
> Give me a little more info on the job.



It's a 3 family house. With 3meters an 3 60 amp panels. Maters were in basement. So removed meters an installed new ones with a new 200 amp service drop. I added a fourth meter for a house panel. So I put in a 4 gang meter socket with bypass. Then replaced 3 panels an added one more for the house. So now there's 4 meters an 4 100 amp panels. Grounding an everything else redone up to code. E like everything but decided that I need a 200 amp disconnect before hitting the meters. I'm almost positive I dnt need it based on the code. I get that technically the house could draw 400 amps because of all the panels but obviously would never happen. But I haven't done residential for a lil bit so before I called him an he told me what he would like to c an I did everything he asked. Then at inspection like I said he decided to say he would like to c that disconnect now. I told him I didn't Appriciate that to much seen as I talked to him before hand for a reason. I told him I wouldn't get to it for a while an he said fine but to still do it. What do u think????


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Where do you have your disconnecting means for the apartment panels?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

But who is to say that in the future added loads to the units and building will not exceed the 200 amp rating of the riser. I think the inspector is covering his ass thinking on that aspect. He is wrong however for requesting it after the fact.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> But who is to say that in the future added loads to the units and building will not exceed the 200 amp rating of the riser. I think the inspector is covering his ass thinking on that aspect. He is wrong however for requesting it after the fact.


You have a point, but that is why we do load calcs. They are our greatest CYA on stuff like this. If it shows something stupid such as there aren't any laundry facilities in the building, and the load calc comes to 192A, and there is room to have them, then it might be a good idea to boost it to a 400A service to allow for that. Then again, electricians aren't mind readers, and can only do so much guessing as to what a property owner will want years down the road.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> You have a point, but that is why we do load calcs. They are our greatest CYA on stuff like this. If it shows something stupid such as there aren't any laundry facilities in the building, and the load calc comes to 192A, and there is room to have them, then it might be a good idea to boost it to a 400A service to allow for that. Then again, electricians aren't mind readers, and can only do so much guessing as to what a property owner will want years down the road.


Things can change, gas could be removed and electric heating and cooking installed, one never knows. The riser should be rated for the total fused amperage of the combined mains or protected for its size. I would have automatically installed a main protecting the service having 400/200 ratio. I did it recently having 600/350 ratio 5meters.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Things can change, gas could be removed and electric heating and cooking installed, one never knows. The riser should be rated for the total fused amperage of the combined mains or protected for its size. I would have automatically installed a main protecting the service having 400/200 ratio. I did it recently having 600/350 ratio 5meters.


I don't think I quite get what you are saying. When you say a 400/200 ratio, do you mean you install a riser rated for 400A and a 200A disconnect? Or you have a 200A service calc, but 4-100A panels, so you install a 400A riser? With the 600/350, did you have 5-100A panels, but calc'd the load as 350, but installed a 600A riser?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> I don't think I quite get what you are saying. When you say a 400/200 ratio, do you mean you install a riser rated for 400A and a 200A disconnect? Or you have a 200A service calc, but 4-100A panels, so you install a 400A riser? With the 600/350, did you have 5-100A panels, but calc'd the load as 350, but installed a 600A riser?


400 amps of service w/ a 200 amp riser. 

The other is 600 amps of service w/ a 350 amp main disco( parallel 4/0s) I had a 200 commercial, 1 100 commercial, 3 100 residential


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

Shockdoc said:


> Things can change, gas could be removed and electric heating and cooking installed, one never knows. The riser should be rated for the total fused amperage of the combined mains or protected for its size. I would have automatically installed a main protecting the service having 400/200 ratio. I did it recently having 600/350 ratio 5meters.




I do agree with all these points. But the question is Is it a code thing. Calc. Load is like way way under 200 amps. An ergot the 6 switch rule in the code book. I thought anything under 6 meters for house by code does not require disconect before meters. An everythig is gas in house. Even dryers. An ps. The house panel has nothing on it. Jus for future cause the inspector wanted it. Homeowner lives on first floor an all house stuff comes of his floor. I only put it in cause he said utility company wants it. But I called an they dnt care lol an also meter bypass he said they want it an they told me they dnt.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

jdawg523 said:


> I do agree with all these points. But the question is Is it a code thing. Calc. Load is like way way under 200 amps. An ergot the 6 switch rule in the code book. I thought anything under 6 meters for house by code does not require disconect before meters. An everythig is gas in house. Even dryers. An ps. The house panel has nothing on it. Jus for future cause the inspector wanted it. Homeowner lives on first floor an all house stuff comes of his floor. I only put it in cause he said utility company wants it. But I called an they dnt care lol an also meter bypass he said they want it an they told me they dnt.


So you have 4 100A meters, disconnects grouped for them, and he still wants a 200A main protecting all of it? Seems downright ******** to me.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jdawg523 said:


> I do agree with all these points. But the question is Is it a code thing. Calc. Load is like way way under 200 amps. An ergot the 6 switch rule in the code book. I thought anything under 6 meters for house by code does not require disconect before meters. An everythig is gas in house. Even dryers. An ps. The house panel has nothing on it. Jus for future cause the inspector wanted it. Homeowner lives on first floor an all house stuff comes of his floor. I only put it in cause he said utility company wants it. But I called an they dnt care lol an also meter bypass he said they want it an they told me they dnt.


Like i said I think what you did was adequet, just that the inspector is covering his ass. The same job where i did those meters the landlord was considering electric heat in each unit to get out of the central boiler gas bill, I discouraged it . Things can change down the line.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> 400 amps of service w/ a 200 amp riser.
> 
> The other is 600 amps of service w/ a 350 amp main disco( parallel 4/0s) I had a 200 commercial, 1 100 commercial, 3 100 residential


Oohhhkay. That makes more sense. Did you still do a load calc or is that just a rule of thumb for you? Just curious how you derived that ratio.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Oohhhkay. That makes more sense. Did you still do a load calc or is that just a rule of thumb for you? Just curious how you derived that ratio.


It originally had a 150 amp main feeding a 200 amp panel in the deli( w/ a 100 amp meterpan), and 50 amp mains to 4 ckt fuse blocks for the apartments and house. I originally had 400 amp fuses but the inspector had me down them to 350. Off the top of my head I figured a full 200 for the deli and 50 amps per unit/house.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Oohhhkay. That makes more sense. Did you still do a load calc or is that just a rule of thumb for you? Just curious how you derived that ratio.



Didn't actually do it but told him I did. An he bought it. Literally everything's gas. Besides lights an plugs.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> It originally had a 150 amp main feeding a 200 amp panel in the deli( w/ a 100 amp meterpan), and 50 amp mains to 4 ckt fuse blocks for the apartments and house. I originally had 400 amp fuses but the inspector had me down them to 350. Off the top of my head I figured a full 200 for the deli and 50 amps per unit/house.


Gotcha, thanks. I haven't done any buildings with mixed occupancies like that yet, so I haven't run into such a scenario. Only had straight resi, or straight commercial.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> So you have 4 100A meters, disconnects grouped for them, and he still wants a 200A main protecting all of it? Seems downright ******** to me.


When u say disconnects grouped for them do u mean the panel mains? Cause right now from meter the go directly to the individual panel mains.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jdawg523 said:


> When u say disconnects grouped for them do u mean the panel mains? Cause right now from meter the go directly to the individual panel mains.


I think hes asking if all the panels are in one location or spread out in each unit.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> So you have 4 100A meters, disconnects grouped for them, and he still wants a 200A main protecting all of it? Seems downright ******** to me.





Shockdoc said:


> I think hes asking if all the panels are in one location or spread out in each unit.


Lol. Ya. They are. Literally 4' of ser from meters to panels.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

jdawg523 said:


> Lol. Ya. They are. Literally 4' of ser from meters to panels.


Yeah, I used general language since I didn't know if they panels were grouped or if you had discos at the meters and running feeders into each apartment. Figured it was easier to say. With that setup, there ain't a code reason I know of to require a main to protect all those. Maybe the inspector just doesn't know what he's talking about :whistling2:


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Yeah, I used general language since I didn't know if they panels were grouped or if you had discos at the meters and running feeders into each apartment. Figured it was easier to say. With that setup, there ain't a code reason I know of to require a main to protect all those. Maybe the inspector just doesn't know what he's talking about :whistling2:


Lol. I agree. An also I won't say the town or city it's from but the inspector in known as a user. An his brother ran a supply house that got busted by FBI for supplying coc. Just saying. Messed up.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jdawg523 said:


> Lol. I agree. An also I won't say the town or city it's from but the inspector in known as a user. An his brother ran a supply house that got busted by FBI for supplying coc. Just saying. Messed up.


Maybe he's _paraniod_, I hear that stuff will do that.:laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jdawg523 said:


> When u say disconnects grouped for them do u mean the panel mains? Cause right now from meter the go directly to the individual panel mains.


You can't do that. Mains have to be grouped. That's why meter stacks come with mains installed, so you can put the panels in the units.

If you have a "main-main", that might suit. Never tried that as the qualifier to distribute the tenant mains.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> You can't do that. Mains have to be grouped. That's why meter stacks come with mains installed, so you can put the panels in the units.
> 
> If you have a "main-main", that might suit. Never tried that as the qualifier to distribute the tenant mains.


Ur confusing me.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jdawg523 said:


> Ur confusing me.


No worries. Just noticed your mains are already grouped. 

The inspector is either smoking something or he's enforcing a PoCo requirement for cold sequence metering on multimeter installations.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> No worries. Just noticed your mains are already grouped.
> 
> The inspector is either smoking something or he's enforcing a PoCo requirement for cold sequence metering on multimeter installations.


I believe earlier the OP said that he put in lever bypass meter sockets, so that would allow for cold sequencing correct? I've never heard of a utility requiring cold sequencing on 120/240 single phase though. Heck, at a rural utility in NH, I saw a lineman hot sequence 480 delta! He sure slammed that meter in quick! :laughing:


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

You do not need another disconnect on the service drop nor is one required .
You stated that each of 4 panels has a main breaker installed. The four main breakers are adjacent to each other . These four main breakers are your service disconnects . All four disconnects either need to be inside or outside depending on the distance to your panel. You would only need an additional disconnect once you went over six meters (there is an exception for some fire equipment , but six turns of the hand is the general rule) Also you do not need the disconnects outside in your case as it is under ten feet from meter to panels(to the first OCPD) Make sure you place the little sticker that reads"service disconnect" at each main breaker because thats what it is and its required. The fact that the house meter has a manual bypass arm is a POCO requirement and not a code requirement and is NOT a service disconnect . Now are you saying the inspection has failed? I see no violation in your description of the install, as I undestand it adding another disconnect outside would create the violation.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

The op's description is standard issue for services in this area. The inspector is talking out his ass. What city/town?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

jdawg523 said:


> My inspector is making me install a 200 amp main disconnect outside for a multi family house. But I kno I dnt need it according to the code an I even asked another inspector from another town an he agrees with me. Its a 3 family so 4 meters an 4 panel one being house meter an panel. I had asked my imspector before hand what he wanted an he never told me he wants dosconnect. Just asked if I could install meter bypass an also house meter which is all fine. Now that I'm done he says he kinda would like to see that disconnect. An failed it. What's my options?


Ask him to red tag it, and list the failure to comply. Post what he says.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jdawg523 said:


> My inspector is making me install a 200 amp main disconnect outside for a multi family house. But I kno I dnt need it according to the code an I even asked another inspector from another town an he agrees with me. Its a 3 family so 4 meters an 4 panel one being house meter an panel. I had asked my imspector before hand what he wanted an he never told me he wants dosconnect. Just asked if I could install meter bypass an also house meter which is all fine. Now that I'm done he says he kinda would like to see that disconnect. An failed it. What's my options?


What is the problem? If you KNOW you don"t have to do it...don"t do it. The inspection authority has the final say...after reviews. And HE, is not the final authority.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

yankeewired said:


> You do not need another disconnect on the service drop nor is one required .
> You stated that each of 4 panels has a main breaker installed. The four main breakers are adjacent to each other . These four main breakers are your service disconnects . All four disconnects either need to be inside or outside depending on the distance to your panel. You would only need an additional disconnect once you went over six meters (there is an exception for some fire equipment , but six turns of the hand is the general rule) Also you do not need the disconnects outside in your case as it is under ten feet from meter to panels(to the first OCPD) Make sure you place the little sticker that reads"service disconnect" at each main breaker because thats what it is and its required. The fact that the house meter has a manual bypass arm is a POCO requirement and not a code requirement and is NOT a service disconnect . Now are you saying the inspection has failed? I see no violation in your description of the install, as I undestand it adding another disconnect outside would create the violation.



Ya he failed it. Like what some o the guys have said about possibly in the future everything in the house that runs on gas could change to electric. That's y he wants it. The possibility that all four panels together could draw more than 200 amps. There's no violation I I had installed It outside but like u said its not required unless I had more than 6 meters.


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## jdawg523 (Mar 5, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> What is the problem? If you KNOW you don"t have to do it...don"t do it. The inspection authority has the final say...after reviews. And HE, is not the final authority.



So ur saying I should call him an tell him that I won't do it unless he proves its a code violation? An if he dnt prove it I threaten to go above his head?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

jdawg523 said:


> So ur saying I should call him an tell him that I won't do it unless he proves its a code violation? An if he dnt prove it I threaten to go above his head?


Ask him to red tag it. Standard procedure. He then has to state why. If it is ligit, you have documentation to ask for an extra.
Everyone here is speculating why. I cannot read minds. Have him write it down, and document it.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jdawg523 said:


> So ur saying I should call him an tell him that I won't do it unless he proves its a code violation? An if he dnt prove it I threaten to go above his head?


Be diplomatic. Just say something like "I'm having a hard time finding in anything in the code that would be a violation. Can you tell me what article you are thinking that's being violated?"

Then stab him


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*inspector making me install 200a disconnect*

There may be an available fault current issue. Most meters are rated @ 10,000 amp rms . If the property is close to the utility transformer you may have more than 10,000 amps available . A 200 amp breaker usually has a 22,000 rms rating. this would afford you the short circuit protection at that level. 

Inspectors in NJ have been citing this. The power company can tell you the available fault current.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

An OCPD will not lower your available fault current.

Edit. Unless you are incorporating something like a rk-1 current limiting fuse.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

i dont think i ever saw a disco ahead of meters, always after...then again my memory aint so good.....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

donselec said:


> i dont think i ever saw a disco ahead of meters, always after...then again my memory aint so good.....


Then you've never seen an installation with more than 6 meters?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

donselec said:


> i dont think i ever saw a disco ahead of meters, always after...then again my memory aint so good.....


I work on an apartment building that has 23 or 24 meters. It has a 600 amp 3 ph disconnect before the meters.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

donselec said:


> i dont think i ever saw a disco ahead of meters, always after...then again my memory aint so good.....


Along with the need for one when there are more than six meters, many power companies require a disconnect ahead of 480 volt metering equipment.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I'd like to know what town/city this is as the OP never came back.

Tom


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*Inspector making me install a 200 main discontent for multi family*

No a disconnect would not lower fault current but if fault current a 200 amp breaker would in most cases protect you at a 22,000 rms level lack of any main will afford no available fault current protection whatsoever we have a guy in jersey citing that most meter sockets are only rated at 10,000 rms therefore he requires a 200 amp main if the fault current is above 10,000 amp . The job I am familiar with had fault current of 14,000 amp and a 200amp breaker is rated a 22,000 thus the reasoning for the main . I am assuming he was asking for a main breaker or fused disconnect .


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