# Thinking of going IBEW...



## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

Hey guys, I've been thinking about joining the Union in my area (Los Angeles).
I've been doing electrical for 6 years, 5 of which was for my dad (hes an EC) and one year with another company. 
I've sent the application to get my journeyman card for CA, so that's going to happen soon. 

I've done mostly commercial (retail store remodels and commercial office tenant improvements) and residential work, with some industrial (municipal water company pumping stations) thrown in. I've done service changes myself, home rewires, played with 480V, etc. I'm quite adept at reading plans.. So here's the questions



If I get my journeyman/general electrician card, do I have to go through the Union apprenticeship and schools?


Any idea what pay would look like?


The tool list thing...I dont know if I like that. I wear a pretty full belt, and I like having everything right there...Here's whats in my belt: Insulated skinny flathead, bigger flathead, BIG friggin flathead, #2 philips, conduit reaming tool, dikes, needlenose, razor knife, jab saw, channellocks, spinning screwdriver, linesmans, level, cable cutters, strippers, pencil, 7.2V cordless Dewalt screwdriver, and various hex bits for my dewalt impact gun or screwdriver....
 It's alot of tools, would I get yelled at for that? And I have a full set of tools including dewalt 18v drill, impact, sawzall, ratcheting klein cable cutters, full set of nut drivers..........the list goes on...would I even be allowed to use my tools?


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## sparky131 (Mar 11, 2010)

Well the tool list keeps guys from offering the contractor their tools instead of their skills. So the power tools are a no. 460 channy's are a no, 3/8 drive are generally a no and wrench larger than 5/8?? a no as well. Also Digital Meters are a no. Basically if it costs for than $30 then it is the contractors responsibility. It keeps the playing feild level against single guys with all the gadgets VS family man who is trying to feed his kids and can't afford all the "cool tools."


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> I've done mostly commercial (retail store remodels and commercial office tenant improvements) and residential work


This type of work is pretty much non existent for LA union electricians. What's going on with your old man?


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> This type of work is pretty much non existent for LA union electricians. What's going on with your old man?


 Things are slow, and its never been steady work for more than a couple months, unless were doing walmart remodels.
I'm getting married next May, and moving out, I would really like steady enough work, so I dont have to worry about rent,insurance,truck payment, etc. 

I love doing this work, but the past few years have been feast and famine, I know this is how trades are,, but geeze...its scary.


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## gmbjr (Mar 25, 2010)

sparky131 said:


> Well the tool list keeps guys from offering the contractor their tools instead of their skills. So the power tools are a no. 460 channy's are a no, 3/8 drive are generally a no and wrench larger than 5/8?? a no as well. Also Digital Meters are a no. Basically if it costs for than $30 then it is the contractors responsibility. It keeps the playing feild level against single guys with all the gadgets VS family man who is trying to feed his kids and can't afford all the "cool tools."


we do not have a tool list per se, but power tools area contractural no-no. Old timers will tell you no ratchet cutters or digital tools or mini electric screwdrivers(suitable only for doing the 6-32s on devices) to them I'd say phooey. 

I think those small $20 battery screwdrivers prevent carpal tunnel so I'd never give someone a hard time about it. I could just as easily pick up the contractor issued dewalt and use it....and those little things arent any faster than doing it by hand, only better for your health.

The ratchet cutters I am on the fence with. I'll carry them to make my life easier if I do not like what is sent out.

Wrenches and socket sets are always a touchy issue. I carry combo wrenches up to 3/4" in my bag. I carry a small 3/8 socket set with regular and deep sockets, as well as a hex set for it. I am a professional, and work like one. Many guys just use their channel locks for the stuff I use them for.

460 channellocks are about the limit. Anything bigger than that is contractor supplied.

I also have a digital VOM. I see nothing wrong with that; no different than owning an older vom with a meter movement on it except its easier to see an accurate reading...and every electrician should be carrying a vom of some sort.

I also have an old style amprobe, which I generally do not bring to work as the contractors all have nicer ones and send them out when you need them.

I don't advertise or brag to the contractor that I have these things. I use them to do a professional job while keeping my health and safety in mind. With the exception of the ratchet cutters these are small ticket items your kids can easily buy you for fathers day, christmas, or whatever. I got my ratchet cutters from a contractor I worked for as a foreman....they told me to keep them. I've gotten several nice tools that way including the digital vom, though that too can be purchased for less than the one I have....$30 will get you a decent one. speaking of the $30 limit you mentioned....that wouldn't work. Sidecutters cost $37!! My Klien ***** cost $25!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gmbjr said:


> we do not have a tool list per se, but power tools area contractural no-no. Old timers will tell you no ratchet cutters or digital tools or mini electric screwdrivers(suitable only for doing the 6-32s on devices) to them I'd say phooey.
> 
> I think those small $20 battery screwdrivers prevent carpal tunnel so I'd never give someone a hard time about it. I could just as easily pick up the contractor issued dewalt and use it....and those little things arent any faster than doing it by hand, only better for your health.
> 
> ...



GEO, we actually do have a tool list.But I don't think it's been updated since your old man was an apprentice:laughing:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

sparky131 said:


> Well the tool list keeps guys from offering the contractor their tools instead of their skills. So the power tools are a no. 460 channy's are a no, 3/8 drive are generally a no and wrench larger than 5/8?? a no as well. Also Digital Meters are a no. Basically if it costs for than $30 then it is the contractors responsibility. It keeps the playing feild level against single guys with all the gadgets VS family man who is trying to feed his kids and can't afford all the "cool tools."


Maybe the family man should been a little more responsible.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Maybe the family man should been a little more responsible.


Care to explain or expand on what you posted.

Charlie


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> Hey guys, I've been thinking about joining the Union in my area (Los Angeles).
> I've been doing electrical for 6 years, 5 of which was for my dad (hes an EC) and one year with another company.
> I've sent the application to get my journeyman card for CA, so that's going to happen soon.
> 
> ...


If you don't have a Chicago bender, I wouldn't hire you.:no:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Charlie K said:


> Care to explain or expand on what you posted.
> 
> Charlie


Less children mean less expenses.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Tools... Hmmm Seems I cant upload PDF


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Maybe the family man should been a little more responsible.


Says the man with a ten-foot ladder tied to the top of his hatchback.

Don't you think that's a little extreme?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

SparkYZ said:


> If I get my journeyman/general electrician card, do I have to go through the Union apprenticeship and schools?


Did you go throught ABC, IEC, or not? If not, you will have to go through it.

If you're looking for steady work... are you sure you're looking in the right place?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Less children mean less expenses.


 I would rather have a guy with a family working for me. They tend to be more stable, and actually need thier job.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> I would rather have a guy with a family working for me. They tend to be more stable, and actually need thier job.


That's a good point but then there's the flip-side: They're not as available to work early mornings, late at night and Saturdays. Taking kids to school and being there in the evening is a necessity. Where a guy with no kids or nagging wife could work all night if you needed him. I'll say this, my company assumes that I'll be there to work whenever just because they know I don't have the responsibility of taking care of kids, which is a positive when work needs to be done in the am hours.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Less children mean less expenses.


I work to support my family. I know what it takes to raise 4 kids. Some of my kids went to private schools, some public, so far 2 are college grads. I will be damned if I am going to buy fancy tools to please a contractor. I have the tools I am required to have. You can buy all the fancy **** you want but it has nothing to do with being responsible. Perhaps you should have bought a decent proximity tester before you went in a trench with hot cables. Shows your responsible. Old Indian saying; never judge a man untill you walked a mile in his moccasins.

Charlie


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> That's a good point but then there's the flip-side: They're not as available to work early mornings, late at night and Saturdays. Taking kids to school and being there in the evening is a necessity. Where a guy with no kids or nagging wife could work all night if you needed him. I'll say this, my company assumes that I'll be there to work whenever just because they know I don't have the responsibility of taking care of kids, which is a positive when work needs to be done in the am hours.


I have never had a problem with going to work. When I needed to go someone was there. My kids got to school, scouts, sports, doctors, music lessons. When I was a GF and needed men I never had an issue either. The guys with families snap right up on it. They were much more dependable than ones with no responsibilites.

Charlie


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Charlie K said:


> I have never had a problem with going to work. When I needed to go someone was there. My kids got to school, scouts, sports, doctors, music lessons. When I was a GF and needed men I never had an issue either. The guys with families snap right up on it. They were much more dependable than ones with no responsibilites.
> 
> Charlie



This has been my experience also.:thumbsup: People with responsibilities are always the most responsible(if that makes sense).


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> I would rather have a guy with a family working for me. They tend to be more stable, and actually need thier job.


 That is how most owners that I know feel. They would rather hire a man with a family than one that is single because they say "they could depend on them more".


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

william1978 said:


> They would rather hire a man with a family than one that is single because they say "they could depend on them more".


I always hope the boss hires a man who cares about his job and is grateful for the work.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

As a norm I get a copy of the tool list and follow it to a T. If it is not on the tool list you can and will be brought up on charges through whatever hall you are working out of. Locals have different systems for organizing in new members, they may require you to go through some of their JATC program but they might only have you pass a test. Most locals also offer classes for Journeymen and local #11 has more to offer than most.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Ever hear of the "cat-dog rule"? It's something that's taught in HR workshops, and it's a question I ask during interviews. "Do you have any pets"? "Oh yeah, what kind"?

The theory is that a cat owner has cats because they pretty much take care of themselves. They use the litter box, and only graze on their feed in the bowl. The dog owner has to have more of a sense of responsibility, since the dog needs let out of the house to do its business and needs fed at certain times. It is said that dog owners are more responsible than cat owners.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Ever hear of the "cat-dog rule"? It's something that's taught in HR workshops, and it's a question I ask during interviews. "Do you have any pets"? "Oh yeah, what kind"?
> 
> The theory is that a cat owner has cats because they pretty much take care of themselves. They use the litter box, and only graze on their feed in the bowl. The dog owner has to have more of a sense of responsibility, since the dog needs let out of the house to do its business and needs fed at certain times. It is said that dog owners are more responsible than cat owners.


I own one crazy ass beagle :laughing: and he is a huge responsibility.He's epileptic,for real.


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

i'm not sure i understand this tool list....ibew wont let you have certain tools?


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

Where I work the tool list is the bare minimum. With few exceptions you can bring just about any tool you want that makes life easier for you. I suggest you leave power tools at home, there is no reason to bring those...

I have 460's in my bag, a meter, full socket set, wrenches up to 1inch, 18inch crescent wrench, nut drivers, etc. I carry them because it makes my job so much easier on me. None of those tools keep me employed, if I sucked as a electrician I would be on the street just like every other crappy electrician we get. 

And I doubt you would ever have charges brought up against you for carrying something that isn't on the list. If someone has a issue with something you bring on the job they should have the balls to tell you to keep it at home, and even if they did turn you in the BA would more than likely just call you and tell you to keep the tools at home. 

I would think the tool list would be the least of your worries when joining the IBEW. Get all the facts, and talk to a few members before you jump in. Know what your getting into!


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> i'm not sure i understand this tool list....ibew wont let you have certain tools?


I look at it more like the IBEW makes it clear who is responsible for providing which of the tools that are or may be needed. It works, mostly. There is a little bit of play in the rules so long as you are reasonable. I have nut drivers and a few speed wrenches for instance and nobody really minds. I am also supposed to have both a toolbox and a pouch for hand tools and the only time I had both on site was my first week and my employer hasn't complained about that either.

My copy of the tool list also stipulates that I am to treat the contractors tools as if they were my own. In my experience, if you follow this rule and also make sure that the contractor's tools are kept track of and locked up at the end of the day, they really will not mind supplying you what you need.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

TorchRed said:


> i'm not sure i understand this tool list....ibew wont let you have certain tools?


 To me a tools puts everyone on a level playing field, say I can not afford a battery drill or ko cutters but the other electricians can, a contractor would be more apt to keep the employee who keeps the cost down by supplying the tools for the contractor. Also a contractor can not dictate that you go buy benders or other expensive tools with the threat of they will get rid of you. Another side is if your tools get stolen or damaged the contractor is only responsible for what is on the tool list(as to replace). Yes I have seen charges brought against members and fines accessed but it is rare.It is very important that you read and understand whatever contract you are working under for they are all different. The person that started this thread had some viable questions, depending on where in LA you live there are many locals but the scale is in the high $30s plus around $12-$15an hour in benefits on top. If you pass the state test there is a good chance that no school would be required but would be offered.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Just to be fair to the guys that did their time in the JATC, some locals make the process from IMJ or whatever classification they place people in, last four to five years before they get a yellow ticket.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

The agreements are not a guarded secret..

http://www.ibew353.org/2010/Prov.pdf


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

i'm sorry but that is about the silliest thing i've ever heard. at our job we are encouraged to do whatever or use whatever to make our jobs easier, i can't imagine how i would get ANYTHING done with just basic hand tools...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> , i can't imagine how i would get ANYTHING done with just basic hand tools...


That's why you go to the gangbox, and pull out a working drill motor, sawzall, and multiple batteries are charged and ready. Oh yeah, there are benders in there, cutting tools, a portaband, rotohammers, everything you need to do your job profitibly should be there in working condition.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Charlie K said:


> I have never had a problem with going to work. When I needed to go someone was there. My kids got to school, scouts, sports, doctors, music lessons. When I was a GF and needed men I never had an issue either. The guys with families snap right up on it. They were much more dependable than ones with no responsibilites.
> 
> Charlie


 Most definately. I always jump on the OT. It comes in pretty handy when it comes time to pay for school, scouts sports doctors and music lessons.:thumbsup:


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

what about small residential jobs, kitchen remodels, additions , or basements, will there be a job box on site?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

TorchRed said:


> what about small residential jobs, kitchen remodels, additions , or basements, will there be a job box on site?


The locals I have worked out of (including local#1 St Louis) the contractor on small works have supplied me with a service truck, hope this answers your question.


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> what about small residential jobs, kitchen remodels, additions , or basements, will there be a job box on site?


The biggest thing you need on a kitchen remodel would likely be a drill and sawzall. Should not need a gang box for that. 

Charlie


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> i'm sorry but that is about the silliest thing i've ever heard. at our job we are encouraged to do whatever or use whatever to make our jobs easier, i can't imagine how i would get ANYTHING done with just basic hand tools...


The tool lists are not ruled with iron fists unless they are really abused. I have had guys come over from non union and they had their own 200' fishtapes, 6 & 8' ladders and a cart load of power tools. I explain to them they are not needed. We are all about making it easier on the men and boosting production. You dont have to bring your own 300 machine or 555 bender. Anything beyond hand tools should be the contractors responsibility.

Charlie


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Charlie K said:


> The tool lists are not ruled with iron fists unless they are really abused. I have had guys come over from non union and they had their own 200' fishtapes, 6 & 8' ladders and a cart load of power tools. I explain to them they are not needed. We are all about making it easier on the men and boosting production. You dont have to bring your own 300 machine or 555 bender. Anything beyond hand tools should be the contractors responsibility.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie I do not know if your are a LU#24 hand but your post is right on. Most do not get upset if you have an extra hand tool or 2 but if the contractor bid the job he should have added all the materials and power tools etc, into his bid.


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

damn, we have hole saws, socket sets, power tools, 6' 8' extension ladders, fish tapes, knockout sets, hammer drills, etc etc.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> damn, we have hole saws, socket sets, power tools, 6' 8' extension ladders, fish tapes, knockout sets, hammer drills, etc etc.


 What are you getting at?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

TorchRed said:


> damn, we have hole saws, socket sets, power tools, 6' 8' extension ladders, fish tapes, knockout sets, hammer drills, etc etc.


 
Is this a requirement to stay employed with your employer? What is the contractor resposible for? Do you at least get some sort of compensation for the use of your tools? If you are working for this contractor and working on your personal ladder that happens to break therefore you fall and get hurt, who would be responsible for your medical exspense? I have been on power house jobs(1000 plus manpower) and the contractor I was working for told us if we even used another contractors equipment we would not be covered by his insurance. I would suspect that power tools would fall into those same guide lines.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Is this a requirement to stay employed with your employer? What is the contractor resposible for? Do you at least get some sort of compensation for the use of your tools? If you are working for this contractor and working on your personal ladder that happens to break therefore you fall and get hurt, who would be responsible for your medical exspense? I have been on power house jobs(1000 plus manpower) and the contractor I was working for told us if we even used another contractors equipment we would not be covered by his insurance. I would suspect that power tools would fall into those same guide lines.


If you were to get hurt using your own tools and equipment whether they are on some sort of list or not, workman's compensation insurance would cover it.

If you were to use another contractors' tools or equipment, and were to get hurt, workman's comp would pay for it, most likely. The reason your contractor told you that, is because, they have a safety manual that states that. Your contractor can't verify if the tools or equipment or mechanically safe to use. This safety manual was created to lower their insurance costs. If you violate the manual, the contractor has a leg to try to fight a claim.


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

william1978 said:


> What are you getting at?


 
i don't know it just seems like all these rules i hear about are so silly, i once heard that there is a rule to how many people it takes to carry conduit.

as for my tools, most of them are company supplied, BUT, the fact that i ask for a hole saw kit and my boss buys it for me, or if i go and buy my own and use it on a job means nothing, it just means that the job got done.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> i once heard that there is a rule to how many people it takes to carry conduit.


That could be related to high-tech manufacturing. They absolutely don't want any accidents at all that could lead to a shut-down of the process. Put one man on each end, and the likely hood of something breaking is greatly reduced.

Most everything I do, is live, if there is an accident or shut-down, it could be a big-bucks liability. I used to be balls to the mortar-forking wall, but when you know how expensive a mistake is, you WILL slow down. I've gotten a bit fatter than my fighting weight, but I can carry two-hundred feet of one-inch emt across the job with the best of them.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> If you were to get hurt using your own tools and equipment whether they are on some sort of list or not, workman's compensation insurance would cover it.
> 
> If you were to use another contractors' tools or equipment, and were to get hurt, workman's comp would pay for it, most likely. The reason your contractor told you that, is because, they have a safety manual that states that. Your contractor can't verify if the tools or equipment or mechanically safe to use. This safety manual was created to lower their insurance costs. If you violate the manual, the contractor has a leg to try to fight a claim.


I would say that this would cover a portion of the problems that could arise but not all. The job I spoke of before was a nuke and they have strict guidelines on what tools can or can not be used on that said job, if you use tools that do not meet the requirements and get hurt in the process, you will run into allot of problems.I just use what the contractor supplies(besides my hand tools) be productive and have less drama to deal with. I do like the way you think though, it would be a perfect world if you do everything in your power to help a contractor, get hurt using substandard tools you supplied and then the contractor backed you on your claim against them (workmans comp, will mandate their premiums to be jacked up for a couple of years to recoup the goverments loss)


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't know when the last time you all filed for workman's compensation, but even the straight forward claims get delayed forever, just think of what falling off your own broken (unmaintained) ladder would do..


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## TorchRed (Dec 5, 2008)

what if you just need 1 peice of 1/2" emt? lol


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

TorchRed said:


> what if you just need 1 peice of 1/2" emt? lol


You're missing the point. It's not an IBEW thing it's a job requirement thing on certain jobs.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

TorchRed said:


> what if you just need 1 peice of 1/2" emt? lol


When you run out? I'm guessing your boss tells you to get your butt into your Honda and zip over to the nearest Home Depot.

And you do it.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Ever hear of the "cat-dog rule"? It's something that's taught in HR workshops, and it's a question I ask during interviews. "Do you have any pets"? "Oh yeah, what kind"?
> 
> The theory is that a cat owner has cats because they pretty much take care of themselves. They use the litter box, and only graze on their feed in the bowl. The dog owner has to have more of a sense of responsibility, since the dog needs let out of the house to do its business and needs fed at certain times. It is said that dog owners are more responsible than cat owners.


I've never stepped in cat chit that someone was too lazy and irresponsible to pick up.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Stan B. said:


> I've never stepped in cat chit that someone was too lazy and irresponsible to pick up.


 
I would have to agree with you there.


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