# Is Fall Protection Required Here?



## Bipeflier (Jan 16, 2013)

Educate me. Worker is about 5 ft. above walkway on a ladder. Walkway has the required railing. To the left of the photo is an aquarium opening containing all kinds of sea creatures including sharks.

Is fall restraint required?

Thanks


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

ill say yes since the railing protect nothing here when you are over it. anyway i would wear one even if not required


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## Vanguard (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm not sure about legally if its required. But I often work over ledges on ladders that have an 80-100ft drop. I wear one even if it isn't required. I'd rather dangle 6 feet then fall 100ft.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't believe fall protection is ever required on a step ladder. But I would be willing to bet there's a ruling that if it possible to fall more than X distance from any work platform then you need it. Besides, that's just common sense.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

*Requirements relating to fall protection for employees working on stairways and ladders are provided in Subpart X . . .
* * *

There is no provision in Subpart X that requires fall protection for an employee while working from a portable stepladder. However, if the employee will be on a surface prior to ascending or upon exiting the ladder for which another Subpart in 1926 requires fall protection, then fall protection would be required at such times. General requirements for fall protection can be found at Subpart M of 29 CFR Part 1926, while requirements specific to a particular activity or equipment can be found at its applicable Subpart in 29 CFR Part 1926.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

4' in Washington


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Ok, now for the question of the hour. Is there anything to tie off to besides the conduits I see in the photograph? If not, tell them to go get the "sky hook" out of the gang box and use it to tie off to.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...your fall protection is not measured from the base of your ladder because you are within 6' of a greater fall potential.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

360max said:


> ...your fall protection is not measured from the base of your ladder because you are within 6' of a greater fall potential.


 Doesn't the height you are on the ladder correspond with the horizontal distance from a "greater fall hazard"?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

btharmy said:


> Doesn't the height you are on the ladder correspond with the horizontal distance from a "greater fall hazard"?


...if you stand on a 3' ladder that is on a flat roof, and one foot away from the roofs edge, what is your fall potential?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Screw the fall protection, were is his floatation device?


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## ggrumpy (Sep 30, 2014)

speaking of fall protection, is it required when working on a scissor lift ??


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

ggrumpy said:


> speaking of fall protection, is it required when working on a *scissor lift* ??


no, but most companies will require you to be tied off to the lift


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

360max said:


> ...if you stand on a 3' ladder that is on a flat roof, and one foot away from the roofs edge, what is your fall potential?


If that roofs edge has the required protection, as does this picture, it would NOT be required.


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## Batfink (Jul 9, 2014)

If it's unclear to wear it or not you just do it, why take any chances.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Just redid my OSHA training and this specific question came up, and the explanation was that as long as there was no requirement for fall protection _prior _to ascending the ladder, there would be no additional requirement for fall protection once on the ladder itself. Here's a standard interpretation for that.

But two thoughts:

1) OSHA is like they NEC: They set a minimum standard of compliance. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to be the appropriate steps for all situations.

2) That said, the specified purpose of OSHA is to ensure worker safety; there is a clause which basically says that if an employer puts a worker in a condition that allows them to be injured, this is de facto OSHA violation even if no specific rules were violated. I think the supporting clause for construction is 1926.20(a)(1).

So even though that worker may not be specifically required to have a harness on, he is undeniably exposed to an additional danger, and if he were to fall over that railing, I bet there would still be an OSHA citation for his employer.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

360max said:


> no, but most companies will require you to be tied off to the lift


I would feel safer tied off to the jr beam. If that lift tips, first I would say it, then I would do it.:jester:


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## Salim Elfahim (Dec 12, 2011)

*Fall protection.*

Gentlemen,

Below is an OSHA regulations which may help to answer the questions about required fall protection:


*<A href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owalink.query_links?src_doc_type=STANDARDS&src_unique_file=1926_0501&src_anchor_name=1926.501(b)(1)">1926.501(b)(1)* _"Unprotected sides and edges." Each employee on a walking/working surface (horizontal and vertical surface) with an unprotected side or edge which is 6 feet (1.8 m) or more above a lower level shall be protected from falling by the use of *guardrail systems, safety net systems, or personal fall arrest systems*._

Guardrail systems. The guardrail system does protect the employee from falling, when standing on the walkway. However, since the employee is standing above the level of the guardrail, the guardrail cannot prevent a fall.

Safety net systems. We don't see a safety net in the photo to protect the employee in case of a fall.

Personal fall arrest systems. This seems (to me) to be the best option for this situation. An anchorage point would need to be installed and rated to withstand an impact of 5,000 lbs. Clipping off to the conduit on the wall is not sufficient. With a rated anchorage point I would recommend a self-retracting lanyard, which limits a fall to two feet, rather that a shock-absorbing lanyard, which limit falls to six feet. 

Just my opinion. Hopefully it helps.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If that roofs edge has the required protection, as does this picture, it would NOT be required.


...what are you considering the required protection. BTW i believe fall protection is required in that pic


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Salim Elfahim said:


> ...Below is an OSHA regulations which may help to answer the questions about required fall protection:
> 
> *1926.501(b)(1)* ....


 Check out the scope for 1926.500 Subpart M which says it's not applicable to ladders:


> Requirements relating to fall protection for employees working on stairways and ladders are provided in subpart X of this part.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Big John said:


> Check out the scope for 1926.500 Subpart M which says it's not applicable to ladders:


yep, and I posted subpart x. Stating fall protection is not required on step ladders, unless it is rrquired upon entering or exiting the ladder. Since there is a chain rail in place, imo, it is not required. 

It might be a good idea to put it on , but Im just saying, if I got fined for this, I would not pay the fine with the current verbage saying what it says.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> ...It might be a good idea to put it on , but Im just saying, if I got fined for this, I would not pay the fine with the current verbage saying what it says.


 I've got my notes in front of me, the clause I was trying to remember in my previous post is the "General Duty Clause."

The gist of that is even without a specific violation, if you put an employee in a position where they were exposed to a hazard, the fact that it happened is what creates a violation by default.


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## Ir_round (Dec 31, 2014)

*Wha...?!?*

How about: Intelligence required here. 
If the possibility exists for not going home or going home in more pieces than you showed up, protect yourself fellas. Seeing my wife and children again and continuing to provide for them is my #1 priority on every task of every job. 
Would you teach your son that this is the safe way to do the job?
If an accident were to happen, would your family stand at your hospital bed or look into your coffin and say, "He was justified for working like that."?


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

It is not the potential fall from the ladder that would require fall protection. It is the potential fall from the walkway to the floor/aquarium below, as the person is standing above the catwalk railing. Therefore, it would be the same situation as if the walkway/catwalk had no railing to prevent a fall to the level below.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Ir_round said:


> How about: Intelligence required here.
> If the possibility exists for not going home or going home in more pieces than you showed up, protect yourself fellas. Seeing my wife and children again and continuing to provide for them is my #1 priority on every task of every job.
> Would you teach your son that this is the safe way to do the job?
> If an accident were to happen, would your family stand at your hospital bed or look into your coffin and say, "He was justified for working like that."?


As with everything we debate here, we were strictly talking about the wording, and what is written. Sure we all know we can go above and beyond the nec, sure we all know we can go above and beyond osha. But that's not what we are discussing.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Check out the scope for 1926.500 Subpart M which says it's not applicable to ladders:


if your on a roofs edge that has a temporary rail, mid rail and toe board, fall protection is not required. If I set up a 10' ladder on that edge, you think OSHA would not require a fall restraint system? I do!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

360max said:


> if your on a roofs edge that has a temporary rail, mid rail and toe board, fall protection is not required. If I set up a 10' ladder on that edge, you think OSHA would not require a fall restraint system? I do!


Cool. Can you prove that with verbage?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

varmit said:


> It is not the potential fall from the ladder that would require fall protection. It is the potential fall from the walkway to the floor/aquarium below, as the person is standing above the catwalk railing. Therefore, it would be the same situation as if the walkway/catwalk had no railing to prevent a fall to the level below.





360max said:


> if your on a roofs edge that has a temporary rail, mid rail and toe board, fall protection is not required. If I set up a 10' ladder on that edge, you think OSHA would not require a fall restraint system? I do!


 I'm not disagreeing with the logic of that, but other than the General Duty clause I don't think there's anything specifically prohibiting it.

Look at it this way: What's the difference between working without fall protection on an 8' step ladder next to a 30' drop and working without fall protection at the top of a 40' extension ladder?


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## Ir_round (Dec 31, 2014)

mcclary's electrical said:


> As with everything we debate here, we were strictly talking about the wording, and what is written. Sure we all know we can go above and beyond the nec, sure we all know we can go above and beyond osha. But that's not what we are discussing.


If we all know we can do better, why would we debate the reasoning behind not doing so? We all are aware there are considerable opportunities to exploit loopholes in any and all regulation, it's up to the intelligent few of us to do what is right.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ir_round said:


> If we all know we can do better, why would we debate the reasoning behind not doing so...?


 Because you sometimes have to deal with people who will try to dictate your job based on rules they don't understand, so it's good to know what's technically required.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...anything that places my foot above 6', my employer requires me to have fall protection, whenever I am in any type of lift, again, fall protection is required.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the logic of that, but other than the General Duty clause I don't think there's anything specifically prohibiting it.
> 
> Look at it this way: What's the difference between working without fall protection on an 8' step ladder next to a 30' drop and working without fall protection at the top of a 40' extension ladder?


the reason fall protection is required at roof edge is because you are circumventing the provided fall protection (top, mid and toe rails) at the roofs edge, by stepping up onto ladder


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## Ir_round (Dec 31, 2014)

Big John said:


> Because you sometimes have to deal with people who will try to dictate your job based on rules they don't understand, so it's good to know what's technically required.


I've been there... I have no qualms putting uninformed persons in their place. There are more jobs available than I have limbs or lives to spare.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> the reason fall protection is required at roof edge is because you are circumventing the provided fall protection (top, mid and toe rails) at the roofs edge, by stepping up onto ladder


 That is the most common-sense solution, but it's not backed by the text of the regulation. Read the standard interpretation I linked to in post 16.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> That is the most common-sense solution, but it's not backed by the text of the regulation. Read the standard interpretation I linked to in post 16.


I respectfully disagree with you, but really don't feel like searching OSHA's site for the specific reference. There is no way OSHA is going to let someone set up a 10' ladder on the edge of a roof without fall protection


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> I respectfully disagree with you, but really don't feel like searching OSHA's site for the specific reference. There is no way OSHA is going to let someone set up a 10' ladder on the edge of a roof without fall protection


 Here's another standard intrepretation specifically for setting up a working surface where fall protection is required:


> Subpart X (29 CFR 1926.1050 _et seq._) does not require fall protection for a worker on a portable ladder. Therefore, no additional fall protection is required while the worker is on the ladder.The fact that the ladder is on either of the surfaces you describe, rather than on the ground, does not alter this conclusion.


 I don't claim to be an OSHA expert, but I think it goes back to the example I gave:

If someone is allowed to work without fall protection while 30 feet in the air on an extension ladder, why would they suddenly be required to have fall protection because they could fall off 4' ladder next to a 10' roof edge?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Here's another standard intrepretation specifically for setting up a working surface where fall protection is required: I don't claim to be an OSHA expert, but I think it goes back to the example I gave:
> 
> If someone is allowed to work without fall protection while 30 feet in the air on an extension ladder, why would they suddenly be required to have fall protection because they could fall off 4' ladder next to a 10' roof edge?


...because working on the roofs edge requires fall protection UNLESS a top, mid and toe rail are provided, a requirement your circumventing by using a ladder at the same edge, which renders that fall protection useless.

According to OSHA, fall protection is not required on extension ladders, it is while working on a roofs edge, that's the difference.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I agree, roofs do require fall protection, but plainly ladders do not. And once you are on a ladder work surface, you are no longer on a roof work surface.

Re-read the standard interpretations I posted. They address your points.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> I agree, roofs do require fall protection, but plainly ladders do not. And once you are on a ladder work surface, you are no longer on a* roof work surface*.
> 
> Re-read the standard interpretations I posted. They address your points.


what is your ladder on?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> what is your ladder on?


 Again, read what the documents I posted, they plainly address the questions you have.

And because I'm repeating myself, I'm gonna bow out unless want to bring something new to this discussion.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Again, read what the documents I posted, they plainly address the questions you have.
> 
> And because I'm repeating myself, I'm gonna bow out unless want to bring something new to this discussion.


john, there is nothing new to add to the discussion, working on the edge of a roof requires fall protection, the use of the ladder does not void this requirement


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The OSHA interpretations I posted directly contradict your opinion.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> Just redid my OSHA training and this specific question came up, and the explanation was that *as long as there was no requirement for fall protection prior to ascending the ladder, there would be no additional requirement for fall protection once on the ladder itself. Here's a standard interpretation for that.
> 
> But two thoughts:
> 
> ...


*

the roofs edge requires fall protection*


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

And the worker on the ladder does not:


> Subpart X (29 CFR 1926.1050 _et seq._) *does not require fall protection for a worker on a portable ladder.* Therefore, no additional fall protection is required while the worker is on the ladder. *The fact that the ladder is on either of the surfaces you describe, rather than on the ground, does not alter this conclusion.*


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Big John said:


> And the worker on the ladder does not:


John, this will be my last comment on this. Regardless what you where taught or instructed by an OSHA guru, if he thinks the requirement for fall protection on a roofs edge is a moot point because your standing on a ladder, the guys an idiot and should not be instructing OSHA classes.The last word is yours.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I truly can't believe what I'm reading. 



One again, we're not arguing what you SHOULD do, we're not arguing what you WOULD do, we are simply pointing out what is written. How is this even arguable?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I truly can't believe what in reading.
> 
> 
> 
> One again, we're not arguing what you SHOULD do, we're not arguing what you WOULD do, we are simply pointing out what is written. How is this even arguable?


because fall protection *IS* required while working on a roofs edge, the fact that a ladder is used does not void the requirement


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

Is one person here arguing about a roof edge without guard rail and the other person arguing about the actual example at the beginning of this thread?


Here's another take on the interpretation of the rules: http://www.elcosh.org/document/1942/d000864/Fall%2BProtection%253A%2BMisconceptions%2B%2526%2BMyths%253B%2BWorking%2BWithin%2Bthe%2BOSHA%2BSystem.html?show_text=1
Must scroll down to "Portable Ladder Use Gives Rise to Both Myths & Misconceptions".


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> because fall protection *IS* required while working on a roofs edge, the fact that a ladder is used does not void the requirement


 How do you explain that standard interpretation that says the rules for the ladder over-ride the rules for the platform edge?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

360max said:


> because fall protection *IS* required while working on a roofs edge, the fact that a ladder is used does not void the requirement


Ok let's break it down. 

1 ) the rules in sub part x clearly state, that fall protection on step ladders is not required. 

2) the same rules also state that fall protection would be required if, upon entering the ladder, fall protection was already required. 

In this case, upon entering the ladder, fall protection WAS NOT REQUIRED due to the chain rail in place. 

In Johns example, fall protection WAS NOT required, due to the rails provided on the roof. 


Again, let's stop arguing what YOU THINK is required, and please understand we are arguing what is written. 

Don't believe us? Please post WHAT IS WRITTEN, to disagree. I'm done with WHAT YOU THINK is written. .....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, im at a waterfront seafood restaurant with live band, and my wife, and we're talking about this. 

Is this a sign of a problem?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I truly can't believe what I'm reading.
> 
> 
> 
> One again, we're not arguing what you SHOULD do, we're not arguing what you WOULD do, we are simply pointing out what is written. How is this even arguable?





mcclary's electrical said:


> Ok let's break it down.
> 
> 1 ) the rules in sub part x clearly state, that fall protection on step ladders is not required.
> 
> ...


...to clarify, I am referring to working on a ladder close to a roofs edge that has a top, mid and toe rail fall protection. That type of fall protection does not provide adequate, if any, fall protection for someone on a 10' ladder near the roofs edge. I am grateful I was properly trained!


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

the picture is too dark for me to see, is that a big hole he is next to?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

360max said:


> ...to clarify, I am referring to working on a ladder close to a roofs edge that has a top, mid and toe rail fall protection. That type of fall protection does not provide adequate, if any, fall protection for someone on a 10' ladder near the roofs edge. I am grateful I was properly trained!


You were trained safely, no doubt. 


One




More





Time, 






We are arguing what is written. Please, 






Oh please





. Stop posting beliefs, and start posting the written rules to prove us wrong. 




Go ahead, do it now. Otherwise, this thread is done. 




No more beliefs






No more what you've been taught









No more what is right













No more what we should do











No more " what a good boss" would do. 












Stop right here












And start posting written facts


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Suprized you guys don't have to be tied off on a ladder? 
In Ontario Canada (different provinces have different reg's) you must be tied off above 10 feet on a ladder.
Would have to be tied off in the OP's picture as well. Guardrail is not capable of protecting the worker from falling more than 10 feet.
Also must be tied off on a scissor lift when it is moving.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

eddy current said:


> Suprized you guys don't have to be tied off on a ladder?
> In Ontario Canada (different provinces have different reg's) you must be tied off above 10 feet on a ladder.
> Would have to be tied off in the OP's picture as well. Guardrail is not capable of protecting the worker from falling more than 10 feet.
> Also must be tied off on a scissor lift when it is moving.


 Are those company requirements or actual laws? 

Many of our clients have similar in-house requirements that we have to follow. But as far as I know, none of that is an OSHA requirement here.

It's why I sorta roll my eyes when people gripe about overbearing OSHA regulations: In my limited experience, a lot of OSHA rules are pretty basic and not unreasonable. It's when companies start making in-house rules to try and appease their safety officers and insurance carriers that things get ridiculous.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Those are laws. Most companies ask for protection over 8 feet. At PCL it's 6 feet !


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

We don't follow OSHA, we have OHSA. (Occupational Health and Safety Act / Reg's for construction projects) We call it the green book.


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## Bipeflier (Jan 16, 2013)

xpertpc said:


> the picture is too dark for me to see, is that a big hole he is next to?


OP here. Sorry for the poor picture but my cell phone was all I had at the time.

The worker is on a narrow walkway protected by a cable railing and the big, dark, aquarium opening. The water is approximately 6 feet or so below the walkway.


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## EBurn (Mar 10, 2015)

Yes, I believe that everyone working on something like this should wear a fall protection. I have bought a fall protection gear ( https://www.nriparts.com/tools/safe...ction-harness-large-x-large-safety-equipment/ ) after one of my friends fell from a ladder while at work and fractured his legs. He was bedridden for 5 months and has not completely recovered till date. So I would urge everyone to use fall protection when they are working at a height.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Personally, I always use fall protection when I'm working over an open shark tank.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bipeflier said:


> Educate me. Worker is about 5 ft. above walkway on a ladder. Walkway has the required railing. To the left of the photo is an aquarium opening containing all kinds of sea creatures including sharks.
> 
> Is fall restraint required?
> 
> Thanks


Common sense says YES. He is too close to the wall.


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## billymac93 (Apr 4, 2015)

In Ontario, fall protection would be required due to the very real risk of falling into the tank. An engineered tie-off point would be required as well. A better engineered solution would be staging covering enough of the tank to provide sufficient working area.
But the real world can be different. Doing things without forethought/planning or "just to get it done" should be done with the proper care and reverence. One of these times it will be the last thing someone does.:laughing:


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## Stanly (Jan 30, 2016)

Salim Elfahime, could you please add me so I can sen you a message or just check out what I posted, it's called apprenticeship questions. And give me a hand


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## Hanzell85 (Dec 11, 2012)

No. Fall restraint is not required. But yes, fall arrest IS required.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

mikewillnot said:


> Personally, I always use fall protection when I'm working over an open shark tank.



Is this something you do often ?


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