# Coincidence??



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

I don't think it is a coincidence that as the years go on and Unions get less and less work that our economy is getting worse and pay scales for all jobs everywhere go down.
People do not realize that Union wages actually govern non Union wages.
I am not trying to preach the Union way, but the reason everybody gets weekends off, overtime pay, and safe working conditions, is because of Unions.
I get so tired of hearing people say "Union Electricians make too much money." Especially when they don't realize the schooling required to be a Union Electrician. The reason we get paid more than anybody else is because the apprenticeship is basically 5 years of college.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

Well said,I agree wholeheartedly!


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

winright007 said:


> I am not trying to preach the Union way, but the reason everybody gets weekends off, overtime pay, ...


Why should either of these things be a right? I often don't get any of those things, and I don't feel especially cheated or empowered by that fact.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Somebody voted for Him.
Dad always said: "Careful what you wish for".."You just may get it".

Deal with it.


----------



## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well ok ive been to both schools union and abc school and was a electrician in the military . Ive worked union and now i work non union the pay to me is the same i only do commercial or industrial plant construction new work nothing else . I guess its were you live or who you work for a good solid company or a bad company our pay is good we get higher if not match union scale .Good bennys 401 k match , bonus pool each job, trucks, gas , travel, 3 week vacation each year ,medical & dental ,5 payed holidays ,sick days paid ,and were non union its 2009 the coal mine days are over its ok to work most jobs ya just have to work for it if you make money for your company you get paid bigg dollars if you do your job and make a profit youll profit .


----------



## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

Overtime is a law in California. Working overtime for straight pay is foolish.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

The reason why you make the same as union wages is because you live in Florida. It's a right to work state and therefore wages are almost half of what they are here in Lansing, Michigan.
Our scale here is $32 an hour. We take every penny of that home, except for taxes and working dues which are only 2%.
We do not pay for our insurance, pension, medical, or annuity. I would like to see a list of non union companies that can match that anywhere.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

People do not realize that Union wages actually govern non Union wages.
I am not trying to preach the Union way, but the reason everybody gets weekends off, overtime pay, and safe working conditions, is because of Unions.

Can you show verified facts to these statements for each "State", are you stating that these are minium federal labor laws enforced by each State and the Federal government?


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

winright007 said:


> I get so tired of hearing people say "Union Electricians make too much money." Especially when they don't realize the schooling required to be a Union Electrician. The reason we get paid more than anybody else is because the apprenticeship is basically 5 years of college.


 
I get so tired of hearing people say "Electricians make too much money." Especially when they don't realize the schooling required to be an Electrician. The reason we get paid more than anybody else is because the apprenticeship is basically 5 years of college.


I am a fairly decent electrician that will go head to head with most guys out there and never had any union schooling or for that matter any formal apprenticeship.

And I'll bet there are quite a few others on here (open shop and union) that can work along side you without missing a lick.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

I was specifically referring to the electrical trade, but if you do some research you will see that organized labor (Unions) started almost every labor movement involving fair working conditions. People that were fed up with their working conditions rallied together to fight for shorter work days, safe working environments, age limits on workers, etc....
Here is a link for this history of electrical unions. http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/history/1890_1897.htm 
I realize this is an argument that can never be won. I have organized a company in the past and some guys just did not want to hear anything I wanted to say. Mainly because they were told lies by the owner and partners of the company. It makes no sense to my why you would not want to make more money, have full benefits, a great pension, and can't get fired for just any reason.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm sure there are open shop electricians that can keep up with me, and I know some are better than me. Every person is different, and some people could go to school for 10 years and be dumber than a rock.
Basically what I am saying is that if you check out wages of right to work states for skilled trades, you will notice a considerable drop in pay scales.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

$34/hr(after tax) in my check. Non union.1/2 of health insurance,12 holidays,3 wks vacation,company truck.Subs install. I start up and point out the flaws,they fix,I recheck. then meet with the Authorities,get the sign off.

Off to the next one.:thumbsup:


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

And if you notice, MA is not Right To Work.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

winright007 said:


> I was specifically referring to the electrical trade, but if you do some research you will see that organized labor (Unions) started almost every labor movement involving fair working conditions. People that were fed up with their working conditions rallied together to fight for shorter work days, safe working environments, age limits on workers, etc....
> Here is a link for this history of electrical unions. http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/history/1890_1897.htm
> I realize this is an argument that can never be won. I have organized a company in the past and some guys just did not want to hear anything I wanted to say. Mainly because they were told lies by the owner and partners of the company. It makes no sense to my why you would not want to make more money, have full benefits, a great pension, and can't get fired for just any reason.


Most of us in this section are union but also have the desire to learn what is what from all sides. I asked for verified facts not a link to information that is given in a class by the Union. You can't win this arguement because these benefits were brought about my elected officals, business owners, unions and people who cared about a growing nation and what it repsented. I attended the apprenticeship and at the time it was at the local community college where anyone could take the classes (including welding). As far as wages go that is a socialeconomic condition of the specific area. Should the economy continue to fall especially in your area (Heavy Manufacturing) do you think the Union won't lose shares and wages will decline. What does an acre of land cost where you are? It goes from $2k around here. There are million homes here that would cost 10-15 else where. Populatio, business, supply and demand drive wages not unions.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've worked union and non-union and they both were good to me. Both have its goods and bads.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is a link that is not partial to any side. 
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1701.html


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

winright007 said:


> And if you notice, MA is not Right To Work.



Sure it is. i present my credentials. They hire me. Thats the employers right.
I think thats fine. Worked for me for 23 years.:thumbsup:

You make your own. Don't wait or depend/rely on some one else.:no:

Thats why we are where we are at now. everyone is waiting for someone else to do something for them.

Ps: what the heck is a right to work? Qualified,they will hire you. If you have something to offer.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

MA is not a Right To Work State. RTW was thought up by people who wanted to get rid of unions. It allows somebody to work in a union company and not have to pay dues. It may not sound bad, but what it actually does is causes the union to give that person all the benefits of being in a union member without paying the dues. The union then has to use it's own time and other members dues money to pay for the benefits of that person, thus resulting in lower wages for everybody.

This is simply a way to eliminate unions.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Thanx for the explanation.
I understand now.


----------



## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

leland said:


> Thanx for the explanation.
> I understand now.


Good job, Winright!


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

winright007 said:


> MA is not a Right To Work State. RTW was thought up by people who wanted to get rid of unions. It allows somebody to work in a union company and not have to pay dues. It may not sound bad, but what it actually does is causes the union to give that person all the benefits of being in a union member without paying the dues. The union then has to use it's own time and other members dues money to pay for the benefits of that person, thus resulting in lower wages for everybody.
> 
> This is simply a way to eliminate unions.


Not true, not here in NC, a RTW state. A person can work for a union company and not be a due paying union member, but they don't get all of the benefits and still have to pay "work assessments", which is a percentage of your pay. Joining, due paying members get all of the pension and retirement benefits, non due paying members don't. So you still pay work assessments every week which comes straight out of your check, which add up to more than dues are.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

Then why wouldn't you join the union and have full benefits and pay less weekly? You don't have to stay in if you don't want to. 
It must be awkward working for a company where some of the guys are union and some are not. I'll bet there is a lot of tension within the company.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't know how it is where Gilbequick is but, here I have not seen anyone not a full dues paying member working for a signatory contractor. I have asked here before this question "how does a non-member get dispatched?". I know that if the local cannot man a job the contractor has the right to hire labor from where ever. So this may be the case. Once the job starts and the contractor still needs additional labor the hall maybe able to dispatch as other jobs are completed. I do know that there is a lot of confusion as to the status of the CW and CE series, are they or aren't they full members? Here union and open shop contractors work side by side at the large plants which I never saw in California.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> I don't know how it is where Gilbequick is but, here I have not seen anyone not a full dues paying member working for a signatory contractor. I have asked here before this question "how does a non-member get dispatched?". I know that if the local cannot man a job the contractor has the right to hire labor from where ever. So this may be the case. Once the job starts and the contractor still needs additional labor the hall maybe able to dispatch as other jobs are completed. I do know that there is a lot of confusion as to the status of the CW and CE series, are they or aren't they full members? Here union and open shop contractors work side by side at the large plants which I never saw in California.


What Gilbequick explaned is correct because I did that exact thing for 8 months before I joined and I was hired as a foreman.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

I have no idea how it works, and hopefully never have to here in Michigan. I do know for a fact that if you have your license, then the union has to let you in as a member as long as you pay the sign up fee. I believe that is a federal law. I completely agree with that and I believe everybody should have the opportunity to join the union if they want to.

I have respect for every working individual, Union or not. Everybody has to feed their family and pay their bills. The only time I ever try to organize a company is when I hear of workers getting taken advantage of, and it happens a lot more than you would think. There are guys working for $12 an hour and have to pay for 6' ladders, hole hawgs, and other tools that the company should provide. They wouldn't have to pay for the items upfront, but the contractor would deduct a set amount from their checks every week. I have even been on a job where an apprentice is running a job!


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

william1978 said:


> What Gilbequick explaned is correct because I did that exact thing for 8 months before I joined and I was hired as a foreman.


Did you get picked up because the hall couldn't man the job?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> Did you get picked up because the hall couldn't man the job?


The contractor just called me and asked me if I would like to come and work for them and made an offer that I couldn't refuse.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

william1978 said:


> The contractor just called me and asked me if I would like to come and work for them and made an offer that I couldn't refuse.


So the contractor knew you or of your and skills/experience? I still don't understand how a signatory contractor can hire outside the contract unless there were problems with available manpower. If they do there are penalities to pay for violation of the contract.


----------



## winright007 (Mar 3, 2009)

RTW states can do that.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

winright007 said:


> RTW states can do that.


Even in right to work states NECA & IBEW have collective bargaining contracts with lanuage specific to hiring practices. If you go back to the IBEW Minuteman site you can ask the brothers to help you out with the idots over here on this issue.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> So the contractor knew you or of your and skills/experience? I still don't understand how a signatory contractor can hire outside the contract unless there were problems with available manpower. If they do there are penalities to pay for violation of the contract.


 
I don't know if there were manpower problems or not, but I interviewed with the owner of this company and didn't fill out any paper work until my first day working for that company.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> Even in right to work states NECA & IBEW have collective bargaining contracts with lanuage specific to hiring practices. If you go back to the IBEW Minuteman site you can ask the brothers to help you out with the idots over here on this issue.


 
Who are you referring as an idiot? You shouldn't call any one an idiot enless you know them.


----------



## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> I am a fairly decent electrician that will go head to head with most guys out there and never had any union schooling or for that matter any formal apprenticeship.
> 
> And I'll bet there are quite a few others on here (open shop and union) that can work along side you without missing a lick.


Same here. Took 2 years of electrical wiring vo-tech in high school and was in electronics in the Air Force. That's pretty much all formal training that I had before becoming a journeyman.

Years later I went right from jack-of-all-trade maintenance man to j-man. (There was a loop hole that allowed me to back then, that has since been closed.) I passed both the j-man test and then the contractors (our version of a masters) on the first try. I also passed the unions test the first try.

As far as I could tell, the main reason that union trained electricians are assumed to better trained is based upon the applicants. Requirements such as High School algebra for the union apprentices tend to enhance their understanding of electrical math, thus giving them the upper hand. I have known many non union electricians that are barely above functionally illiterate. That being said, I have know both union and non union mechanics that only care to know enough to install pipe and pull wire.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

william1978 said:


> I don't know if there were manpower problems or not, but I interviewed with the owner of this company and didn't fill out any paper work until my first day working for that company.


I was refering to a previous post by another member had made on another site regarding us at this site.


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

william1978 said:


> I don't know if there were manpower problems or not, but I interviewed with the owner of this company and didn't fill out any paper work until my first day working for that company.


Same here. I know of 2 other guys who came in the same way. In a RTW state you cannot require a person to be a member of a union to be employed there. I believe the contractual hiring practices only pertain to hiring union members out of the hall.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> I was refering to a previous post by another member had made on another site regarding us at this site.


Ok cool deal. I was just a little confused. :thumbsup:


----------



## worn kleins (Dec 13, 2007)

8 hour work day courtesy of the unions??? Well that use to be true but not anymore. I have thirty years in the union and I have worked plenty of 10 hour days for straight time. Our contracts allow for 4-10 schedules and it has been that way for some time now. So the union may have brought us the 8 hour day in the past, but they gave it away some time ago. And as far as conditions are concerned, the non-union has almost always had better job conditions. I can't count the number of jobs where are conditions, job shacks, port-a-johns etc. were so bad that had we been animals the contractors could have been brought up on cruelty charges. In fact you couldn't put convicts in some of these job shacks that we have to change and eat in. Wages and benefits are nice but there is something to be said for just being treated like a human being.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

winright007 said:


> Then why wouldn't you join the union and have full benefits and pay less weekly? You don't have to stay in if you don't want to.
> It must be awkward working for a company where some of the guys are union and some are not. I'll bet there is a lot of tension within the company.


Once again Batman you are wrong.


----------

