# 277V/480V vs 347V/600V



## Jeff000

I know that 277 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 480. 
And I know 347 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 600. 

But why does it seem the US and Eastern Canada is 277/480 and Western Canada is 347/600

I have personally never seen or worked on 277/480. All I ever work on is 347/600.

Is there benefits to one over the other? Do they work the same way? Like if I was planning lighting circuits could I plan them the same for 277 as I do 347?


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## micromind

I think one of the biggest reasons we use 277/480 around here is because most electric motors are dual voltage. 230/460. This way, they'll work on either a 480 or a 240 system. Almost all of them will work on a 208 volt system as well. 

The 347/600 system uses 575 volt motors which are single voltage. 

Rob

P.S. I think the best system is used overseas, it's 240/415. The motors have 240 volt windings, 6 leads, and operate on 240 when delta connected, and 415 when wye connected. 

Transformers are all 240 volt, and are connected the same way the motors are. Single phase is always 240, no 120/240, no MWBCs, no center taps on transformers, and this voltage is available with either single phase, a 240 delta, or a 240/415 wye. 

It just seems simpler, and more versatile.


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## paulcanada

I am from Alberta and I haven't worked with 347/600 yet. I know of sites with it but every site for me so far is 277/480.

Paul.


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## John Valdes

Here in the south, most every textile plant used 575 volts. The problem is with equipment as Rob mentioned. Look in any motor catalog and they have a special section for 575 volt motors. Some do not even build them. Sometimes we had to rewind motors we could have trashed and bought new had it not been for 575 volts.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> But why does it seem the US and Eastern Canada is 277/480 and Western Canada is 347/600


I heard somewhere that the reason that eastern Canada uses 277/480 was because of the automotive (and other) industry influence from the US. This was strictly hearsay and could be nonsense, but it makes sense to me.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> Is there benefits to one over the other? Do they work the same way? Like if I was planning lighting circuits could I plan them the same for 277 as I do 347?


There are several large benefits to increasing service voltage, primarily smaller conductors (and less overall metal required in the whole conductive path), smaller service gear and less voltage drop and system loss. 

I haven't done the math in a while, but you can put _a lot_ of 2-lamp, T8 ballasts on a single 15 or 20 amp 347 volt circuit. Likewise, you can run even smaller wires to 600 volt motors, heaters, etc that you can with even a 480 volt system.


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## ACB

I did not know ontario was western??? the majority of industry here is 600v, however equipment that origionates from the U.S can be 480, and we usually just put in step down xfmrs for that, I have a client that has alot of equipment from different origions, and for some there is a xfmr at the machine for it, like some 600 (ment for Canada), some 480(purchased in the US) a 400 (Chec machine) a 300v (russian machine) with some 240 conversions for dc drives (so 2 xfmrs) . keeps me on my toes knowing whats what when trouble shooting.


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## user4818

ACB said:


> I did not know ontario was western???


Neither did I. Thanks for clearing that up. :laughing:


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## randomkiller

Peter D said:


> I heard somewhere that the reason that eastern Canada uses 277/480 was because of the automotive (and other) industry influence from the US. This was strictly hearsay and could be nonsense, but it makes sense to me.


 
I had a similar thought about textile machines being 575v, all the mills I have been in around my area have been that voltage, figured it was the way the machines were built.


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## Jeff000

Peter D said:


> There are several large benefits to increasing service voltage, primarily smaller conductors (and less overall metal required in the whole conductive path), smaller service gear and less voltage drop and system loss.
> 
> I haven't done the math in a while, but you can put _a lot_ of 2-lamp, T8 ballasts on a single 15 or 20 amp 347 volt circuit. Likewise, you can run even smaller wires to 600 volt motors, heaters, etc that you can with even a 480 volt system.


That make sense. I am only a second year, so most of my knowledge is from working with it, but not how the numbers are arrived at. I do know we split the parkaid into 8 circuits for lighting, each quarter getting a reg and em circuit. But I have been told we could do the whole parkaid in 1 reg and 1 em. 



paulcanada said:


> I am from Alberta and I haven't worked with 347/600 yet. I know of sites with it but every site for me so far is 277/480.
> 
> Paul.


I only do commercial, from reading replies it seems industrial would be much more likely to use 277/480. Maybe thats the difference? 




In the states is there much 347/600? I would think hotels, casinos, malls, etc, would see benefits????


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> In the states is there much 347/600? I would think hotels, casinos, malls, etc, would see benefits????


We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> That make sense. I am only a second year, so most of my knowledge is from working with it, but not how the numbers are arrived at.


It's easy. Just use Ohm's law.

Multiply the voltage by the amperage. For instance, take a typical 20 amp, single phase circuit.

20 X 120 = 2400 Volt amperes (watts)

20 X 277 = 5540 VA

20 X 347 = 6940 VA


As you can see, the 20 amp, 347 volt circuit can deliver an incredible amount of power with only one circuit.


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## Jeff000

Peter D said:


> We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.


So in vegas the big casino's are 277 lighting? or 120? 
Just seems we have a lot of different lighting options with 347v for only portions of canada using it. 



Peter D said:


> It's easy. Just use Ohm's law.
> 
> Multiply the voltage by the amperage. For instance, take a typical 20 amp, single phase circuit.
> 
> 20 X 120 = 2400 Volt amperes (watts)
> 
> 20 X 277 = 5540 VA
> 
> 20 X 347 = 6940 VA
> 
> 
> As you can see, the 20 amp, 347 volt circuit can deliver an incredible amount of power with only one circuit.


Ah ok, I should have known that too. And that really makes it clear why 347 would be an advantage for lighting circuits.


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## frenchelectrican

The other thing if you use the 347 volt system you have to be carefull when you order a switch make sure you get the correct rating due most of commercal/industrail single pole switch the common type are rated for 120/277 volts max.

In few place it may need a lead time to order them.

However in Europe area 



> I think the best system is used overseas, it's 240/415. The motors have 240 volt windings, 6 leads, and operate on 240 when delta connected, and 415 when wye connected.
> 
> Transformers are all 240 volt, and are connected the same way the motors are. Single phase is always 240, no 120/240, no MWBCs, no center taps on transformers, and this voltage is available with either single phase, a 240 delta, or a 240/415 wye.


 Rob have right details however for our power supply in Europe we don't have delta system at all only in single phase or three phase supply in wye format only. but once after pass the Customer unit or distubution unit then we can go from there.

Merci,Marc


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> So in vegas the big casino's are 277 lighting? or 120?
> Just seems we have a lot of different lighting options with 347v for only portions of canada using it.


Yes, 277Y480, 120Y208 and 120/240 are the standard all across the U.S. As for lighting, if 277 is available in the building, then chances are it's utilized for all the discharge lighting as long as it's within NEC guidelines to use it. 

240V center tapped open delta is also fairly common in certain areas.


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## micromind

I don't know about the big casinos in Vegas, but I've worked in quite a few of them in Reno. Believe it or not, the vast majority of lighting is 120 volt. About the only 277 you'll find is in the parking lot. 

This is actually more of a reflection on the stupidity of electrical engineers than anything else, anytime I see a drawing for one of these places I just shake my head in disbelief! 

The service(s) at most of the big casinos is 4160 or higher. One of them is 25KV. There are several transformers that are 277/480 secondary, and a whole bunch of transformers with 480 primaries and 120/208 secondaries. I'd say that more than 1/2 of the total load is utilized at 120 volts. A large portion of this 120 volt load is fluorescent or HID fixtures. I can't help but wonder how much they'd save in transformer losses if these loads were 277!

Completely ridiculous.

Rob


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## patriot1

I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.

US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...

The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.


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## ACB

patriot1 said:


> I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.
> 
> US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...
> 
> The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.


 
LOL!! we say the same thing about 480 up here. various transformers are pretty common here, 600 - 208/120, 600 - 240/120 (single phase) 600 to 480/277, 208 - 480/277 (step up) 208 - 600/347 (step up) 240 (3ph) - 600 (have one in my shop for a milling machine). $hit man we can go to a corner store here buy a loaf of bread, quart of milk and a 30 kva transformer. to get any other 3phase (low voltage) service than 208/120 or 600/347 is not easy and expensive, its more to our advantage to get a 600 and step it down internally for whatever equipment we are running, wonder why that place where you are did not just do that, they could have with the motors from here got a step up transformer just as easily.


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## Jeff000

patriot1 said:


> I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.
> 
> US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...
> 
> The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.



Why would they go 277 lighting and not just 347? And then order a transformer from Canada to get the 120?

I thought more and more engineering and fabrication in the states was going metric?


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## John Valdes

Peter D said:


> We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.


There is a plant less than 10 miles from my home that still has 575 volts and over 500 employees.
The local motor shops fight over their business all the time. It's a money maker for a motor shop.


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## 5486

patriot1 said:


> I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.
> 
> US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...
> 
> The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.


 
Seems like somebody dropped the ball on the trannies, looks like if they had talked to ACB he could have given them a supplier to get those hard to find ones.


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## patriot1

Regional suppliers only carry what is local, anything else has to be ordered. 347 lighting is great but when it goes out, no local supplier will carry replacement parts(around here that is) and who wants to carry $$$$ of parts. When a plant goes down, no time for ordering..

600 vs metric has its good and bad points, when your used to 480 why go 600 and when your used to standard why go metric. It works both ways. US has been going metric for years, its the old timers that dont like change. US is the last to go metric I believe.

Oh yea, I did say "smart" maint. man...haha ACB Didnt mean he was really smart....


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## eddy current

347volt switches are bigger as well. Because of that you also have to use a 347volt device box. Nothing like having to use two different sizes of device boxes (120/240v and 347v) on every little fit-up


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## cdnelectrician

Anyone ever worked with 240/416 Volt systems? I still see these systems in use in the GTA. I have only ever worked on one 277/480 system, and that was in a plant that was owned by an american company. They actually had hydro install a 277/480 padmount transformer for them. All of their machines were 480 volt so it made sense. Most of the other plants I worked on used a step-down transformer at the machine to get 480 V, but there was a mix of 600V/480V machines.
I have heard that there is a lot of problems with 277 V arcing and eating up switches and contactors whereas 347 V does not. Not so sure if it's true or not?


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## micromind

Over the last 19 years, I've dealt with about a dozen or so 575 volt motors. Most of them were built into a machine, and not a standard frame size. 

My approach to this depended mostly on just exactly what the motor was driving. For example, one of the was a 40 HP driving a shear that was installed in a restaurant equipment fabrication shop. This shear could cut 3/8" sheet steel, and the largest size they ever used was less than 1/8". There was a fairly large flywheel involved, so I simply connected the motor to 480. I told the shop foreman to call if there was ever trouble with it, I've been back there a number of times for other stuff, and the shear is still in operation. This was about 10 years ago. 

A few others looked like they would be loaded pretty heavily, so I used 48 volt buck-boost transformers. This will boost the 480 up to 528, and 10% less than 575 is 518. Never had a lick of trouble with any of them. 

There is almost always more than one way to solve any problem, it's always best to consider all options, and tailor the solution to the need. 

Rob


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## kaboler

Jeff000 said:


> So in vegas the big casino's are 277 lighting? or 120?
> Just seems we have a lot of different lighting options with 347v for only portions of canada using it.
> 
> Ah ok, I should have known that too. And that really makes it clear why 347 would be an advantage for lighting circuits.


It's also good for voltage drop if you're working with lighting over long distances. Run more wires, smaller wires, with less thinking. Lots of government jobs seem to be 347 lighting. Saves money in the long run (costs less to get power to the fixture, especially if it's running 24/7)


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## GEORGE D

I'm gonna say something alittle off topic and maybe dumb. On a 4 wire delta with high leg what do you typically use the high leg for? I just can't think of a scenario to use a single leg at 240 volts but obviously there's some reason


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## Jlarson

GEORGE D said:


> I'm gonna say something alittle off topic and maybe dumb. On a 4 wire delta with high leg what do you typically use the high leg for? I just can't think of a scenario to use a single leg at 240 volts but obviously there's some reason


Nothing, it's just kinda there. It's not going to be 240 volts to ground anyway, in theory the high leg should measure 208 volts to ground, in practice I have seen anywhere from the high 180's up to close to 208 volts to ground on the high leg. 

Obviously you can use the high leg for single phase, phase to phase loads that don't require a neutral or for full 3 phase loads though.


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## Big John

Jlarson said:


> Nothing, it's just kinda there. It's not going to be 240 volts to ground anyway, in theory the high leg should measure 208 volts to ground, in practice I have seen anywhere from the high 180's up to close to 208 volts to ground on the high leg.
> 
> Obviously you can use the high leg for single phase, phase to phase loads that don't require a neutral or for full 3 phase loads though.


 I'd have to check into it, but I seem to recall something about not putting single phase loads on the highleg.... Something about unbalancing the transformer. Can't really see why it would be a problem, though. Just tossing that out there.

OT: We actually run a lot of 600V systems. It's just commonly referred to as "mill power" and it's not unusual up here for the distribution utility to have 600V secondaries available in areas with heavy industry. 

I have yet to see a 600V wye; all the ones I've seen are ungrounded delta. But usually there's enough capacitive grounding that you'll get a reading pretty near the 340V range phase to ground. 

575V motors aren't that hard to find (maybe because we're within shouting distance of Canada?) but still a lot of people just put buck-boost everywhere and install 480V equipment. Seems silly to me: By the time you pay for the buck-boost, you've eaten up anything you would've saved on the 480 motor. 

-John


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## Jlarson

Big John said:


> I'd have to check into it, but I seem to recall something about not putting single phase loads on the highleg.... Something about unbalancing the transformer. Can't really see why it would be a problem, though. Just tossing that out there.


Hum, I know me and a few others on here are big on using the high leg and one other phase as much as possible for p-p single phase loads.



Big John said:


> OT: We actually run a lot of 600V systems. It's just commonly referred to as "mill power" and it's not unusual up here for the distribution utility to have 600V secondaries available in areas with heavy industry.
> 
> I have yet to see a 600V wye; all the ones I've seen are ungrounded delta. But usually there's enough capacitive grounding that you'll get a reading pretty near the 340V range phase to ground.
> 
> 575V motors aren't that hard to find (maybe because we're within shouting distance of Canada?) but still a lot of people just put buck-boost everywhere and install 480V equipment. Seems silly to me: By the time you pay for the buck-boost, you've eaten up anything you would've saved on the 480 motor.


It seems to be harder to get 600 volt stuff here probably cause we aren't as close to the maple leaf nuts:laughing: and there isn't a lot of 600 volt around here anyway.


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## Big John

Jlarson said:


> Hum, I know me and a few others on here are big on using the high leg and one other phase as much as possible for p-p single phase loads.


 Hot damn, that's good to know. Every time I see a high-leg, I'm tempted to put 208 lighting circuits on it. Never have because I thought it was verboden. 

Now there's nothing stopping me! :devil2:

-John


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## Jlarson

Big John said:


> Hot damn, that's good to know. Every time I see a high-leg, I'm tempted to put 208 lighting circuits on it. Never have because I thought it was verboden.


Ah, 240 lighting circuits cause A-B and B-C voltages should be 240.


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## micromind

Count me in with the crowd that uses the high leg for every 240 volt single phase load that doesn't involve the neutral. It helps balance the system and takes up less space in the panel.

The one and only disadvantage is you're supposed to use a two pole breaker that's rated 240 volts, not 120/240. They're a bit more expensive. 

The only reason I can think of not to use the high leg to neutral is you'd need a single pole breaker rated for 208 (or 240) volts. I've never seen one that would fit in a 120/240 volt panel. 

Rob


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## Jlarson

micromind said:


> The only reason I can think of not to use the high leg to neutral is you'd need a single pole breaker rated for 208 (or 240) volts. I've never seen one that would fit in a 120/240 volt panel.


Me either, then again I never gave high leg to neutral loads any thought.


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## Mike in Canada

My favourite aspect of 600V 3ph is that it happens to 'line up' with horsepower and KVA numbers. Why? It's because 600 x 1.7 = 1020, which is pretty darned close to 1000. So, how many amps for a 50HP motor? 50. How many amps to feed a 45 KVA transformer? 45. 

Nice.

Makes for easy 'rule of thumb' figuring.


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## Big John

micromind said:


> The only reason I can think of not to use the high leg to neutral is you'd need a single pole breaker rated for 208 (or 240) volts. I've never seen one that would fit in a 120/240 volt panel.





Jlarson said:


> Me either, then again I never gave high leg to neutral loads any thought.


 Oh, see: That's what I was so happy about, was high leg-to-neutral single-phase loads. I'll put 240 volt 1Φ loads on the high leg all day long, but usually there are a bunch of single pole breakers in these panels, and the high leg ends up not getting touched.

That's why I always wanted to use the high-leg for 208 lighting, just put in one single pole breaker and you're good. But you're right, I'm not sure that the breakers exist for it. 


Mike in Canada said:


> My favourite aspect of 600V 3ph is that it happens to 'line up' with horsepower and KVA numbers. Why? It's because 600 x 1.7 = 1020, which is pretty darned close to 1000. So, how many amps for a 50HP motor? 50...


 Not trying to bust your balls, because that seems like a neat trick, but I don't get how it works.

When I do the KVA on a 50HP motor I get 36 amps.
50 * 746 / 600 / 1.73 = 35.9 :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:

-John


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## micromind

Big John said:


> Not trying to bust your balls, because that seems like a neat trick, but I don't get how it works.
> 
> When I do the KVA on a 50HP motor I get 36 amps.
> 50 * 746 / 600 / 1.73 = 35.9 :confused1: :confused1: :confused1:
> 
> -John


If the 50HP motor were to operate at 100% Power Factor and be 100% efficient then it would draw 36 amps.

If the PF is 80%, then the current would be around 45 amps. Add another 5 or so for heat losses and you're at 50. 

I haven't seen one in a long time, but motors do exist that are designed to be 100% (unity) PF. The rotors are wound, and when DC is applied to this winding it'll change the PF. The Full Load Amps on these motors is considerably less than a normal one. This is even addressed in Table 430.250 Note the heading of the far right-hand columns. 

PF vs. FLA of motors is also addressed in 460.9 It states that when a capacitor is used on the load side of a motor O/L, the rating of the O/L must be based on the improved PF of the motor. 

Rob

P.S. Though I have little experience with it, I like the 347/600 system better than the 277/480. There are no dual-voltage motors; they're all 575. The smaller ones have 3 leads, the larger ones have 6. The 6 lead ones can be started across-the-lines or wye-delta.


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## Mike in Canada

As Micromind pointed out, the rule of thumb is based on 'common' motors. The Canadian electrical code specifies the minimum amperage of conductors for a motor of a given horsepower. You have to use that amperage rather than the nameplate amperage. This is so if a high-efficiency motor is replaced with an 'average' one you don't have to pull new wire. Anyway, the numbers work out pretty well. Once you pass about 200HP or 200 KVA it starts to drift enough that I'd double-check, but as a rule of thumb it is startlingly useful.


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## Big John

Aha! :thumbsup: And it actually does work pretty damn well if I put in the true efficiency and power factor. Good trick to know.

-John


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## sparky970

user4818 said:


> We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.


There's plenty on the West coast


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## Rollie73

Jeff000 said:


> I know that 277 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 480.
> And I know 347 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 600.
> 
> *But why does it seem the US and Eastern Canada is 277/480 and Western Canada is 347/600*
> 
> I have personally never seen or worked on 277/480. All I ever work on is 347/600.
> 
> Is there benefits to one over the other? Do they work the same way? Like if I was planning lighting circuits could I plan them the same for 277 as I do 347?


 
Which part of _Eastern_ Canada uses 277/480??? I think......no.....I know you have that statement backwards.:laughing:

I'm from Nova Scotia......Cape Breton Island to be exact and the only more eastern point in this country is Newfoundland and we all have 347/600. 

I've worked from one ocean-edge of this country to the other......as far south as London, Ontario and as far north as the Diavik Diamond Mine In NWT...and I didn't start seeing 277/480 until I worked a shutdown in GM plant in Ontario. Even that isn't considered western Canada....its central Canada.

It was very rare that I worked on much 347/600 while I was in Alberta either.......just a handful of times..........it was pretty much all 277/480.

In answer to your question though......they work the same way, you would plan lighting circuits the same way with the exception of needing larger switch boxes.


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## Rollie73

bigmikeb said:


> Seems like somebody dropped the ball on the trannies, looks like if they had talked to ACB he could have given them a supplier to get those hard to find ones.


 
None of those txmr's are exactly hard to find anywhere here in Canada. Its kind of like ABC said.............my local supplier stocks a 30kVa 600-208/120 volt step down transformer. I have to wait 2 to 3 days to get anything larger shipped in from Moncton, New Brunswick.


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## BBQ

This thread is from 2009


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## Rollie73

BBQ said:


> This thread is from 2009


:laughing::laughing:Guess I should have read the dates on it............first time a thread ressurection got me.:laughing::laughing:


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