# Question.



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

I am hoping someone here can help me. I am a union residential journeyman. I have been laid off for almost 7 months now and my sub pay is gone. I have an opportunity to possibly take a non-union job. I have a house payment and a baby on the way and my insurance is about to run out. (Two weeks roughly) I don't really want to stray away from the union but electrical work is what I am good at and what I am trained to do. The outlook on work around here is not so good and it could be up to a year before I would go back. What can the union do to me if I take a non-union position. Can they charge me for schooling? If so how much is it? Can they take my pension? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

Relentless7 said:


> I am hoping someone here can help me. I am a union residential journeyman. I have been laid off for almost 7 months now and my sub pay is gone. I have an opportunity to possibly take a non-union job. I have a house payment and a baby on the way and my insurance is about to run out. (Two weeks roughly) I don't really want to stray away from the union but electrical work is what I am good at and what I am trained to do. The outlook on work around here is not so good and it could be up to a year before I would go back. What can the union do to me if I take a non-union position. Can they charge me for schooling? If so how much is it? Can they take my pension? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!


 It's all in the contract that you signed.

The union might be able to charge you for school, usually there is a time period that you have to work union before you can leave. The union can also bring you up on charges and fine you personally for working non-union while having an active union book, $2,500 is not unheard of.

Your best bet is to just be honest and tell them, maybe shelf your book. An apprentice recently told me that the Business Manager came into class to talk to them and one thing he mentioned was the guys they are bringing up on charges for working non-union. The BM said that all these guys had to do was talk to the hall about it and they would set them on on the Salting program and allow them to work non-union as a Salt.

Just be careful in what you do. Your family always comes first, but you have to tread carefully in order not to stir up too much trouble.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Please be honest to the non-union contractor too.

Tell him you are a union man, who is out of work, and once work returns, you plan on leaving him to go back to the union.


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

you need to do what is right for your family 
when i'm out of work I go do other jobs drive truck or what ever you did sign a contract right so you will have to deal with whatever that contract says about breaching it good luck


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

sparky105 said:


> when i'm out of work I go do other jobs drive truck or what ever


That's true, you can do whatever you want outside of the electrical field without it going against the hall.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

So he can't just keep up with the dues?

Regardless,Baby,mortgage,etc. Do what ya gotta do.
Guess now one finds out how they support their 'brothers'.

Family first!!!


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

leland said:


> So he can't just keep up with the dues?


And what...?


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Electrical work here is slow to none existent. I got a job working in a related field but not competing with any electrician. I install, troubleshoot and repair two way radio systems. The pay is less but it can be a lot of fun.


----------



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

Yeah I understand what you all are saying. I honestly don't want to go against the union. I love my job but, there are other more important priorities in my life that I cannot ignore. Also I don't want to have to deal with paying fines and/or losing my pension and I could not "salt" for the union. I don't feel that it is right. I worked non-union before I became union and obviously the union pay and benefits are better but, how good are they if I am not even working? I don't know what to do.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

Relentless7 said:


> Yeah I understand what you all are saying. I honestly don't want to go against the union. I love my job but, there are other more important priorities in my life that I cannot ignore. Also I don't want to have to deal with paying fines and/or losing my pension and I could not "salt" for the union. I don't feel that it is right. I worked non-union before I became union and obviously the union pay and benefits are better but, how good are they if I am not even working? I don't know what to do.


You can be a Salt without doing the Salting part of it 

BTW, I don't think they could touch your pension or annuity.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

If the men at your hall have a shred of humanity, they will turn the old blind eye.

If they fell you have to sit with no money and not work where you can make the most in these times they are FLAMING A*HOLES.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Do you qualify for more unemployment? Does your hall allow salting? I don't think jeapardizing your union standing would be a good idea. This non-union contractor might have you wire four houses then kick you to the curb..


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Question*

I believe that you should talk to your BA and someone you consider to be a "FRIEND" at the same time. If offered, take the salting job. It is nothing different than being the only one on the job with a different way of thinking...and sharing your thoughts. It is not a bad thing to want to be union. Others have the ability to say NAY or YEH on the job. If you are a great worker the boss probably will not want to let you go. As always, he will get the credit for getting the most out of you. Good luck.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> If offered, take the salting job. It is nothing different than being the only one on the job with a different way of thinking...and sharing your thoughts.


I disagree. If he finds employment, the last thing he should do is sneak around behind the employers back trying to turn the other employees against them. 

As a union member, I'll proudly say that salts are the real *rats*.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I think people have different ideas of what a salt is. In Eastern WA it's a union electrician working for a non-union electrician while waiting for a call. That's it. The idea being that the union electrician will work hard, be a good employee and show the non-union shop that union electricians aren't all bad. So.. a salt isn't a rat unless that individual decides they want to be a rat, and that is frowned on, at least in my neck of the country.


----------



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

JackBoot said:


> I disagree. If he finds employment, the last thing he should do is sneak around behind the employers back trying to turn the other employees against them.
> 
> As a union member, I'll proudly say that salts are the real *rats*.


Yeah like I said before.... I can't be a salter. Its just not in my blood man. I feel its wrong. I don't know what exactly I am gonna do.


----------



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I think people have different ideas of what a salt is. In Eastern WA it's a union electrician working for a non-union electrician while waiting for a call. That's it. The idea being that the union electrician will work hard, be a good employee and show the non-union shop that union electricians aren't all bad. So.. a salt isn't a rat unless that individual decides they want to be a rat, and that is frowned on, at least in my neck of the country.



This definition of a salter is what I would like to be. I can go out and show people that not all Union members are bad, or lazy, that we are well trained and hard working.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

Relentless7 said:


> Yeah like I said before.... I can't be a salter. Its just not in my blood man. I feel its wrong. I don't know what exactly I am gonna do.


As I mentioned, there is nothing wrong with telling the hall that you will Salt, but not actually doing the deed once you're hired.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Question*



JackBoot said:


> I disagree. If he finds employment, the last thing he should do is sneak around behind the employers back trying to turn the other employees against them.
> 
> As a union member, I'll proudly say that salts are the real *rats*.


That is what is great about an open forum; Different opinions get aired. I don't take offense...even at being called a rat. In my life I have found it to be that if someone is opposed to my way of thinking and cannot get me to change, they usually get irate and try to conjure up a word that makes me mad. It really tells me that I am successful. I AM a union man but I would not try to start trouble at a new job. My family is too important...I would bide my time. I would be the best worker there, gain their confidence, and let them know that Union workers CAN be GREAT workers. At least I know I am, as most of you are. Nothing wrong in being proud.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I think people have different ideas of what a salt is. In Eastern WA it's a union electrician working for a non-union electrician while waiting for a call. That's it. The idea being that the union electrician will work hard, be a good employee and show the non-union shop that union electricians aren't all bad. So.. a salt isn't a rat unless that individual decides they want to be a rat, and that is frowned on, at least in my neck of the country.


That might be true in your area, but here, and everywhere else I've known, a Salt is someone sent out by the union to push and manipulate the non-union workers of a company into voting to unionize the shop- no matter if the workers are happy or not. They are underhanded, insulting, and disgraceful. And they are an embarrassment.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Question*



JackBoot said:


> That might be true in your area, but here, and everywhere else I've known, a Salt is someone sent out by the union to push and manipulate the non-union workers of a company into voting to unionize the shop- no matter if the workers are happy or not. They are underhanded, insulting, and disgraceful. And they are an embarrassment.


 Could be why they don't want them on UNION jobs.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Could be why they don't want them on UNION jobs.


Huh?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Question*



JackBoot said:


> Huh?


 I was talking about the insulting and disgraceful conotations. I suppose it wasn't a very good response. I would not want them on my job, either. I keep saying that I am proud UNION, but I, as well, have met some Union workers that I was not proud of. I just hope that those TYPES don't drag down the good ones.


----------



## JackBoot (Feb 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I was talking about the insulting and disgraceful conotations. I suppose it wasn't a very good response. I would not want them on my job, either. I keep saying that I am proud UNION, but I, as well, have met some Union workers that I was not proud of. I just hope that those TYPES don't drag down the good ones.


If you read what I said again, you'd see that the local is the one sending them out to act in that manner.

The same way as how the local sends us out to "picket", but expects us to stand in front of the non-union vehicles trying to enter the construction site, causing traffic and acting like thugs.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Question*



JackBoot said:


> If you read what I said again, you'd see that the local is the one sending them out to act in that manner.
> 
> The same way as how the local sends us out to "picket", but expects us to stand in front of the non-union vehicles trying to enter the construction site, causing traffic and acting like thugs.


 I've read what you've written and I believe I know what you meant. I am only trying to defend those who work ok. If I had as much disdane for the union as you seem to, I wouldn't work UNION in Fair...or Foul weather. I don't want to get into a long winded union argument, pro...or con. Sometimes you just take a stand and.....stand there.


----------



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I was talking about the insulting and disgraceful conotations. I suppose it wasn't a very good response. I would not want them on my job, either. I keep saying that I am proud UNION, but I, as well, have met some Union workers that I was not proud of. I just hope that those TYPES don't drag down the good ones.



It seems to me in my area that "the bad ones" have done their deed on the guys who actually want to go out and give 8 hrs for an 8 hr day. The thing that really stinks is that there are companies that said they wanted me to work for them but, we are not allowed to solicit our own work. So there are 60 guys ahead of me on the list and probably 30 of them contractors don't want, I have to wait for something big to pop up and for contractors to pay two hours show up time to some bums and turn them back around just so I can have a job back. I don't think these guys who have worked for every contractor in the union, who have given themselves a bad name should keep me or any other hard working union member from having a job.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Queation*



Relentless7 said:


> It seems to me in my area that "the bad ones" have done their deed on the guys who actually want to go out and give 8 hrs for an 8 hr day. The thing that really stinks is that there are companies that said they wanted me to work for them but, we are not allowed to solicit our own work. So there are 60 guys ahead of me on the list and probably 30 of them contractors don't want, I have to wait for something big to pop up and for contractors to pay two hours show up time to some bums and turn them back around just so I can have a job back. I don't think these guys who have worked for every contractor in the union, who have given themselves a bad name should keep me or any other hard working union member from having a job.


There are no perfect answers. But if a contractor would hire you if he COULD, that tells me that he does need qualified help. If the people ahead of you are truely deadbeats and both the contractor and the Hall are aware of it, maybe a deal could be made. At least the list would move. If they get someone they know they cannot use they can and SHOULD send them back. Good luck.


----------



## Relentless7 (Feb 15, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> There are no perfect answers. But if a contractor would hire you if he COULD, that tells me that he does need qualified help. If the people ahead of you are truely deadbeats and both the contractor and the Hall are aware of it, maybe a deal could be made. At least the list would move. If they get someone they know they cannot use they can and SHOULD send them back. Good luck.



Yeah I hear ya. The thing is I worked for a commercial company under a permit because I am residential. I worked there for roughly 5 weeks and not to toot my own horn but the contractor was impressed with me. Granted I was coming from a background of running my butt off all day in residential to a little slower paced commercial job. Well a commercial guy was laid off and the union told the contractor I was working for that they had to send me back to the hall. The contractor fought with the hall over this issue for over a week because every person they received from the hall except for a select few were not worth a crap. They had finally got someone who would actually work for them and get done what they needed to and they were making them get rid of me. They even talked about starting a small residential side just to keep me on. Now this company has told me after the commercial guy came out and they sent him back after a couple of weeks that they would hire me in a second. I'm not commercial technically so this would not work. It sucks but what do ya do ya know?


----------



## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I think people have different ideas of what a salt is. In Eastern WA it's a union electrician working for a non-union electrician while waiting for a call. That's it. The idea being that the union electrician will work hard, be a good employee and show the non-union shop that union electricians aren't all bad. So.. a salt isn't a rat unless that individual decides they want to be a rat, and that is frowned on, at least in my neck of the country.


I agree it doesn.'t have to be a negitive experience, it is getting info out the guys that are interested in the union the other fellows that don't want the info don't listen no matter how well you speak. There are just as many open shop guys that want in as guys that want out it's a rovolving door and they don't know if they should make the moveor not.I would give it a try at the very least you get a pay check for a while. good luck


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

sparky105 said:


> you need to do what is right for your family


Just remember who your family is, you know what I'm sayin'

That's a nice house you got there, be a shame if something should happen to it. It's been a little dry lately.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I worked as a salt a few times, not a big deal, they knew I was Union and have hire Union folk before and since. They needed workers and I needed a job, it was the proverbial win/win for both of us.


----------

