# Industrial work Licensing



## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

Hello,

In ontario if you work for a company such as bobs automation company, and they send you to build panels at freds manufacturing plant, then you are to install them/wire them up and supply power to the panels, does that need to be done by a licensed electrician or their apprentice? Or Can you just call it industrial work and not need a license because its compulsory?

I am under the interpretation, that you need to be a 309a licensed electrician or apprentice because you are not a owner, operator, or employee and not performing service or maintenance on OEM panels built in your shop installed by a licensed electrician. I believe its considered a construction project under OHSA, because the project is installing electrical equipment or electrical machines.

Please confirm.

My employer hires electrical workers they call laborers, then send them out without a journeyman electrician, to perform equipment installation of non-OEM panels.

Can a worker sent to do such a tasks who is not licensed or supervised by the company, refuse to perform that work based on not having the qualifications of electrician license, because they are not trained in the hazards of that electrical installation?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

these two might be able to help
@wcord 
@eddy current


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## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

Almost Retired said:


> these two might be able to help
> @wcord
> @eddy current


I know the answer, I just want to see people argue that it doesnt matter because its not enforced by the Electrical Safety Authority or the MOL skilled trades


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

jeffrayfakename said:


> I know the answer, I just want to see people argue that it doesnt matter because its not enforced by the Electrical Safety Authority or the MOL skilled trades


Have you been here before under a different name?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

Forge Boyz said:


> Have you been here before under a different name?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


nope


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> these two might be able to help
> @wcord
> @eddy current


Sorry, can't help on this one. I know in Manitoba, that scenario would not be allowed. We eliminated labour and helper positions many years ago.
Only a JM or licensed apprentice under supervision could connect power. ( At least here) . Ontario may be different


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

@jeffrayfakename , regardless of what the rules say, thanks to our current provincial government, there is no enforcement from the MOL for compulsory or non compulsory trades. 

If you do not want to do the work your boss is asking, then find another job. It’s sad, but fighting it will get you nowhere except unemployed.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

I can't speak for Ontario, but @eddy current 's take is similar in BC.

The contractor needs to be licensed. The electrical workers are required to be qualified persons or registered apprentices (not licensed contractors). 

It gets tricky when the employer doesn't do strictly electrical and employs several trades. You send a team to a site to install a bunch of premade equipment.... Could be a sparky, a fitter, a millwright, and a few labourers. Tasks are going to overlap.


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## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

u2slow said:


> I can't speak for Ontario, but @eddy current 's take is similar in BC.
> 
> The contractor needs to be licensed. The electrical workers are required to be qualified persons or registered apprentices (not licensed contractors).
> 
> It gets tricky when the employer doesn't do strictly electrical and employs several trades. You send a team to a site to install a bunch of premade equipment.... Could be a sparky, a fitter, a millwright, and a few labourers. Tasks are going to overlap.


the employer was an electrical contractor, but the workers they were sending to do panel installs were electrical technologists, and did not hold a electrician's license and was not an apprentice working under a journeyman. There is no exemptions for Technologists or engineers to perform electrical installs without a license. They can only do in shop panel building, electrical design, service, or maintenance on OEM panels the company they are employed at made in house. They should not be live wiring panels and installing non OEM panels and even OEM panels, but these are not enforced by the MOL, the technologist isnt trained to identify hazards like a panel fed from 2 sources, or the other companies lockout/tagout processes or if you need a rated PPE that isnt identified at that workplace. or even the environment like arc flash protection boundaries for the companies panels and proper PPE for the panel to be worked on, such as cotton shirts, rubber gloves, blast mask, various others. That is why there suppose to work as apprentices until there licensed when doing field panel installs. Such as of robots, automation panels, devices, etc.. Using metal ladder instead of fibreglass ladder, or proper insulated tools.

If we can do electrical installs as a technologist, than why bother ever getting a electrician's license and doing an apprentice, and why bother using master electricians to ensure it was done correctly? Cant a technologist be qualified as a Master electrician than?

According to the logic, if i can do electrical installs under a LEC without a license, I can do electrical installs without working under a LEC as well, as a technologist.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

jeffrayfakename said:


> the employer was an electrical contractor, but the workers they were sending to do panel installs were electrical technologists, and did not hold a electrician's license and was not an apprentice working under a journeyman. There is no exemptions for Technologists or engineers to perform electrical installs without a license. They can only do in shop panel building, electrical design, service, or maintenance on OEM panels the company they are employed at made in house. They should not be live wiring panels and installing non OEM panels and even OEM panels, but these are not enforced by the MOL, the technologist isnt trained to identify hazards like a panel fed from 2 sources, or the other companies lockout/tagout processes or if you need a rated PPE that isnt identified at that workplace. or even the environment like arc flash protection boundaries for the companies panels and proper PPE for the panel to be worked on, such as cotton shirts, rubber gloves, blast mask, various others. That is why there suppose to work as apprentices until there licensed when doing field panel installs. Such as of robots, automation panels, devices, etc.. Using metal ladder instead of fibreglass ladder, or proper insulated tools.
> 
> If we can do electrical installs as a technologist, than why bother ever getting a electrician's license and doing an apprentice, and why bother using master electricians to ensure it was done correctly? Cant a technologist be qualified as a Master electrician than?
> 
> According to the logic, if i can do electrical installs under a LEC without a license, I can do electrical installs without working under a LEC as well, as a technologist.



Here is the truth and your not going to like it. 

About Once a week or two I hear from a young worker who is working illegally in the electrical trade in Ontario, you are not alone. 

Most of the people I speak with are working in residential, but I also hear from those working in commercial and industrial.

Doing electrical work but not being registered as an apprentice is the most common one. 

The system is broken, always has been a little, but has gotten worse in the past decade. 

And Just like every government before them, this current government has made promises to make it better………but believing a promise from a politician is like thinking a stripper actually loves you and doesn’t just want your money. 


Like I said earlier, don’t like what you are doing, start looking elsewhere because you will waste so much time and energy for nothing otherwise. 

Sorry


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

Why are you asking this question if you know the answer? Go find a job somewhere else where they won't ask you to do something you don't have the right to do. Put this to bed and move on.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Like I said, I don't know how it's supposed to be in Ontario. You'll have to find the appropriate authority to complain to. May be wise to do so anonymously.


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## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

eddy current said:


> Here is the truth and your not going to like it.
> 
> About Once a week or two I hear from a young worker who is working illegally in the electrical trade in Ontario, you are not alone.
> 
> ...


yeah thats the truth right there, its that the government the Ministry of Skilled Trades claims that workers need to be licensed but dont enforce it, and the ESA claims they do, but they also dont enforce it. When I complained the MOL said that since its an industrial establishment I can perform electrical work" and I said but Im not a employee of the industrial establishment and he said he didnt care even though its legislated and suppose to be enforced under BOSTA, OHSA, Electricity ACT, and contractors licensing. That anyone who is not the owner, operator or employee of the industrial establishment must be licensed to perform electrical work on panels if not OEM, and when OEM cannot include altering the circuit or installation of new equipment or devices. IF OEM, service, maintenance and repair can be done, but not altering the circuit or adding equipment. Service in my opinion is testing and troubleshooting, maintenance could be changing an existing failed component, and repair could be damaged equipement and replacing it like for like. But not installing a PLC, or a disconnect, or fuses, or more IO cards, or a new motor drive and motor.

The MOL and ESA give a false sense of security, like a worker who is unlicensed and unsupervised to sent to perform a install of electrical equipment at a site, who is not a qualified electrician, who will eventually make a mistake and be electrocuted or shocked and may not have a watcher while working live or perform lock out tag out or wear proper rated PPE for the panel or disconnect or ground it properly, or maybe they fuse the neutral line accidently or are unaware the panel is still live and not discharged, or fed from 2 sources as the employer didnt provide the sources before they started work.

Altering/installing the circuit to me could include removing the infeed power cables, installing a disconnect or distribution block and reconnecting it, and could be done unsafely un an unlicensed worker. it could also include altering fuses and connections.


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## jeffrayfakename (4 mo ago)

eddy current said:


> @jeffrayfakename , regardless of what the rules say, thanks to our current provincial government, there is no enforcement from the MOL for compulsory or non compulsory trades.
> 
> If you do not want to do the work your boss is asking, then find another job. It’s sad, but fighting it will get you nowhere except unemployed.


Discussion Starter · #13 · 2 h ago (Edited)



> eddy current said:
> Here is the truth and your not going to like it.
> 
> About Once a week or two I hear from a young worker who is working illegally in the electrical trade in Ontario, you are not alone.
> ...


.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

You do bring up one good point.

It doesn't matter if you are qualified and hold every certificate in the book including a masters. According to osha and the Canadian equivalent you are not qualified to work on anything that you have not received training to identify the dangers involved. (one of the reasons we spend 1-5 days in onsite safety before being allowed to work on most sites)

On many occasions i have required additional training/supervision by a operator before starting a job especially when it comes to chemicals. Now im not sure what a "electrical technologists" is or how you can claim that title but if you honest are wiring panels and doing live tie in's yet lack any understand of the danger's involved then the title's not worth the paper its written on.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Fwiw, Electrical Engineering Technologist is a 2-3yr diploma program at my local college.

In my experience, these are the guys programming PLCs, directing work for electricians at a PoCo's substation, or vendor support; as in technical help by email/phone, or sent on-site to troubleshoot product directly.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

u2slow said:


> Fwiw, Electrical Engineering Technologist is a 2-3yr diploma program at my local college.
> 
> In my experience, these are the guys programming PLCs, directing work for electricians at a PoCo's substation, or vendor support; as in technical help by email/phone, or sent on-site to troubleshoot product directly.


So the OP is not being all that honest when he claims 

"the technologist isnt trained to identify hazards like a panel fed from 2 sources, or the other companies lockout/tagout processes or if you need a rated PPE that isnt identified at that workplace. or even the environment like arc flash protection boundaries for the companies panels and proper PPE for the panel to be worked on, such as cotton shirts, rubber gloves, blast mask, various others."

Hes just basically missing the 1-5 day onsite safety course.


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