# A Question for ABC Electricians or Contractors.



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Last week I took the NCCER Commercial Electricians test . Now I have been doing electrical work for 34 years plus I was a apprenticeship instructor. I have never been so humiliated by a test in my life. 
It is a closed book multiple choice test . I passed it but I feel I should have done allot better than what I did.
One of the questions that sticks in my mind is one on IC ratings of fuses. 
They stared that if a certain fuse had this IC rating then what rating would another fuse have. i guess what I am trying to say they had strange ways of asking questions.

Now my question has anyone taken the NCCER Commercial electricians test recently and what are your feelings about the test?

www.nccer.org/assements.aspx


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm curious - what was the point of taking the test ?


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I completed my apprenticeship in 1989 when I was working in Freeport TX.
That was before NCCER . With the advent of the NCCER they came up with skill assessment tests in 2005. 
If I would ever need to go to work for a ABC company I would need the NCCER certification. It amounts to $1.00 or more on the hour. 
I have 3 NCCER certifications Industrial Electrician, Commercial Electrician ,Instrument Tech.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I did the same thing about a year ago by taking both the industrial and commercial NCCER exams. I found that out of 100 questions about 50 on each test was very easy almost to the point of "what is your name". However, on about 25 questions the way they were worded and in some cases the words or terms were odd at best. I scored 88 and 92 which I didn't think was very good because a 75 was a give me. It is true that most large non-union contractors in the south do not accept any other certifications. I got a $1.75/hour more for passing the written then got another $1.25/hour for passing the hands on skill assessment.


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

In 2008 I got a 95 on the Industrial last week I got a 81 on the Commercial. 
When you look at their site they tell you that there is no study guides except the apprenticeship books and it is closed book. They will let the pipe fitters use some of their reference material but nothing is allowed for the electrical and instrument tests.
I relay do not think that is fair.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

what's the hands on test like ?


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Go to www.nccer.org/assessments.aspx
then

Find Assessments Journey Level Specifications On that page there is a box on the right that says RELATED CONTENT Performance Verifications.

That lists all of the PV's that are available .
That does not look that hard.

There is something that I think you should be able to do and that is build on related certifications . Allot of the material on the industrial test is the same on the commercial test If I passed it on the industrial test why make me take it on the commercial test?


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> Go to www.nccer.org/assessments.aspx
> 
> There is something that I think you should be able to do and that is build on related certifications . Allot of the material on the industrial test is the same on the commercial test If I passed it on the industrial test why make me take it on the commercial test?


The contractor I worked for paid for the industrial, I paid for the commercial. It is about money for the schools and the nation wide program. I asked the contractor if they would pay for the Instrument Tech and they wanted me to attend classes first at my cost then they would pay for the test. The test is like $95.00 for them the classes are like $600.00 or so for me. Guess what my decision was? I do think that building on related certifications is great but I think they need to have pre-test assessments. This would help in setting up classes for those needing just refresher courses.


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*nccer IS A JOKE*

ghghghgh


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ramseydax said:


> nccer IS A FAKE TEST. iT IS THE NON-UNIONS ATTEMPT TO DEVELOP CRAPPY TESTS TO CALL PEOPLE ELECTRICIANS. IF YOU THINK THE NCCER TEST IS HARD STAY AWAY FROM THE UNIONS BECAUSE THEIR TESTING AND TRAINING CANT BE TOUCHED AND BLOWS THE NCCER OUT OF THE WATER.
> 
> IC RATINGS IS SECOND YEAR APPRENTICE QUESTION IN THE UNION.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Another TROLL? or just an ignorant fool?


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

WOW, what a response. Hopefully as a trainer YOU don't have anything to do with the newbies obtaining an AA/AS degree. Oh and how those CE/CW guys after a few work hours right into the program without so much as testing and interviewing. Bummer there goes that spot for your kid.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> nccer IS A FAKE TEST. iT IS THE NON-UNIONS ATTEMPT TO DEVELOP CRAPPY TESTS TO CALL PEOPLE ELECTRICIANS. IF YOU THINK THE NCCER TEST IS HARD STAY AWAY FROM THE UNIONS BECAUSE THEIR TESTING AND TRAINING CANT BE TOUCHED AND BLOWS THE NCCER OUT OF THE WATER.
> 
> IC RATINGS IS SECOND YEAR APPRENTICE QUESTION IN THE UNION.


I'm sorry, could you type a bigger font, and in more CAPS?


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

*Why*

Do people expect their employer to pay for their certs?

It's your career,your license your certification.
I don't get it.

If you want better you must pay for it. They will just hang it over your head. 
so the 'I get more money for it' thing don't cut it.

If I'm an employer- I may give you more for a masters, but I don't need to. I got my own.
I'm using you in a Journeyman position and thats what I'll pay.


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Fact on NCCER - I lived it*

ghghghghghg


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Only Troll is u*

Just you buddy



brian john said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Another TROLL? or just an ignorant fool?


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Yep*

Sure can buddy




frasbee said:


> i'm sorry, could you type a bigger font, and in more caps?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

After reading all the trash talk I suddenly want to run out and join the union... NOT


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> After reading all the trash talk I suddenly want to run out and join the union... NOT


 :thumbup::laughing::laughing::lol:


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Unions are a good thing*

Just advoid alot of the negative people on here. the IBEW Apprenticeship and Union cant be beat. Usually the naysayers are struggling with personal issues hence the negativity. Stay positive, work hard, serve the customer and you will have a great and honorable career in the union. 

Good luck in your union apprenticeship you made the best choice you could have!


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ramseydax said:


> Just advoid alot of the negative people on here. the IBEW Apprenticeship and Union cant be beat. Usually the naysayers are struggling with personal issues hence the negativity. Stay positive, work hard, serve the customer and you will have a great and honorable career in the union.
> 
> Good luck in your union apprenticeship you made the best choice you could have!
> 
> Dax Ramsey IBEW Member/Union Contractor/Journeyman Electrician


The trash talk remark was directed at you :whistling2:


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*No trash talk*

ghgfghggghg


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> Dax Ramsey IBEW member/Union Contractor/Journeyman Electrician


And this guy's IP address comes up clean?!?


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Why Wouldnt it*

Why wouldnt it? I pay my bill every month to the cable company lol.

The sandwich sounds good --- Would be a good sandwich working on the road.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> What I found was that in the non-union sector workers were pitted against one another--everyone was always wondering who was making what--and working against one another. Nepotism was rampant in the non-union.
> 
> *Keeping it real here... you know nepotism is rampant in the union too. When all the work dries up, the only people working at a shop are relatives of the office.*
> 
> ...


Dax, I wanted to bring you back to reality here. I am very pro-union, but there are some things about it I would change. We need a 50/50 solicit-own-job like SlickVic's Local 98. We also need to positively implement this CE/CW to get the smaller work back, and identify competent help for advancement.

Just to clarify, the diplomatic skill and maneuvering it takes to keep working through bad times at a union shop is far greater than that required at a non-union shop. That is something the best of workers don't necessarily have, but the suck pumps do.


----------



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> We also need to positively implement this CE/CW to get the smaller work back, and identify competent help for advancement.
> 
> .


And like i have stated MANY times on here, the Union needs to hold up their end of the agreement and be able to furnish the men(capable men) when needed.


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Beg to differ*

Has nothing to do with being a suck pump it has to do with maximizing your benefit to the contractor and customer. For example taking advantage of journeymen upgrades and training offered by the local apprenticeship is a great way to maximize employment options. I jumped on the book sometimes hundreds of people because I took the time to get the training. While the whiners were sitting in the bar I was taking instrumentation, controls, photovoltaics, and many other classes. From my experience the ones quick to call people suck asses are also the ones quick to run to break, run to the bar, and run to the sofa====laziness ad infitum. Your career is what you make it you can sit on your butt and wait for others to do it for you.




miller_elex said:


> Dax, I wanted to bring you back to reality here. I am very pro-union, but there are some things about it I would change. We need a 50/50 solicit-own-job like SlickVic's Local 98. We also need to positively implement this CE/CW to get the smaller work back, and identify competent help for advancement.
> 
> Just to clarify, the diplomatic skill and maneuvering it takes to keep working through bad times at a union shop is far greater than that required at a non-union shop. That is something the best of workers don't necessarily have, but the suck pumps do.


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Agree*

I agree 100 percent with the implementation of CW's. I have no argument there. I started as a residential electrician --- everyone in the local looked at us as scum for working for less but I saw it as an opportunity. Working residential you learn to run work and leadership skills most industrial drones never see and you have to work much HARDER. 




BDB said:


> And like i have stated MANY times on here, the Union needs to hold up their end of the agreement and be able to furnish the men(capable men) when needed.


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Can't be Lazy*

ghghghghgh


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> For example taking advantage of journeymen upgrades and training offered by the local apprenticeship is a great way to maximize employment options. I jumped on the book sometimes hundreds of people because I took the time to get the training. While the whiners were sitting in the bar I was taking instrumentation, controls, photovoltaics, and many other classes.


I run specialty work, right now things are slow, but not even close to being desperate. GFY jumping the book for a specialty call, how did you do that coming from book 2? Book learning and hall certifications with no prior experience don't mean crap in the real world. We all know the specialty call as a cousin call. 



ramseydax said:


> Once again I respond by saying you cant sit on your butt waiting for a call ... you have to use your skills to find more bid opportunities and as a worker you have to travel to where the work is.


I've pitched my tent down by the river, driven a couple hours each way, and lived in cheap motels. I'll work non-union before taking on that lifestyle the rest of my career.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Why does dax, end up sounding like all the other union die hards that seem to come and go, full of hot air, pro union but absolutely no posting regarding any electrical issues. 

HMMMMM once again another union bro with no electrical background, typical of a guy that has to have union protection. Not one of the productive members of the IBEW.:laughing:


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Good Luck*

The Certifications no matter what they are never mean crap but the knowledge I have gained from the classes does. So if a contractor calls for someone with PLC knowledge they will have to weed through twenty people that claim they can do it to find the one who can. Certifications are just one step to weeding out the electricians who claim they can do something . So by requiring a certification for the job call you elimanate the slacker electricians who claim they can do something they can't.

I wish you luck working non-union I have nothing against your choice. I am just stating my opinion from my personal experience as a man who was walked all over by non-union greed based contractors. When I got into the Union I did not have to put up with the Drama and tactics of the non-union. I could focus on doing my job as an electrican and ultimatly provide better service to the customers. 

I would highly suggest (and do so on a daily basis) to all young men and women looking for an honest career that will train you for FREE and pay you a living wage to join the IBEW and work as a UNION electrician.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> So if a contractor calls for someone with PLC knowledge* they will have to weed through twenty people* that claim they can do it to find the one who can. Certifications are just one step to weeding out the electricians who claim they can do something .


What else is new? People who have a specialty know others who share the specialty in an informal network. The contractor doesn't want to pay the extra 10% to call a man out by name, so its his fault he's stuck weeding through phonies. Controls is unlikely to get its own certification, because then more contractual language gets involved, it is not in the leadership's agenda. Theres not enough of us to get controls it's own agenda. 

I think another reason controls does not have it's own book or designation is because it takes power away from the contractor. When a man who is fed up can leave a shop and get another gig pronto by some special book, it takes away the year he would have to sit on his butt should he decide to leave. The thought of having an unproductive year encourages most anyone to put up with alot of sh1t.

Just my thoughts up there. I've been non-union before, and they have good shops too, just have to find the right one. I am not likely to work non-union unless I have no alternative, because I like the health benefits and retirement of the local. I've saved enough dough and hustled some action to get me through the few months that I spend on my butt a year.

How bout you Dax, you got Resi remodel skills? You get yo hustle on? :laughing:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Expanding on the idea of a controls specialty book:

I have had good reaction from contractors, union and non-union, when I bring up the idea of a specialty book. 

Non-union controls contractors have no incentive to sign on with the local if they have to weed through a bunch of bozos to get a few IBEW controls hands. Additionally, they have the option of going UA, which also offers them fitters for the wet side of controls. Those fitters can also do the electrical scope of the install, but no high voltage before the equipment's disconnect. The fitters are no comparison on the electrical side, but they have superior knowledge of hvac to all but a few electricians.

Additionally, the existing hands at a non-union controls contractor typically have only a low-voltage license. There is no place for them on our Book 1.

For the time being, the only logical course of action on controls, is to make sure the non-union contractors are paying the electrician / plumber / sheetmetal prevailing wage on davis-bacon work. Then the economy will play itself out. Some non-union controls contractors have mis-classified their installers as 'low-voltage voice-data catv,' and that is against the law.


----------



## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

ramseydax said:


> Just advoid alot of the negative people on here. the IBEW Apprenticeship and Union cant be beat. Usually the naysayers are struggling with personal issues hence the negativity. Stay positive, work hard, serve the customer and you will have a great and honorable career in the union.
> 
> Good luck in your union apprenticeship you made the best choice you could have!


I question whether you are a contractor. The aprenticeship program costs money, to the contractor. Just think, if it did not cost money, the comrades could get paid more........


----------



## ramseydax (Oct 26, 2010)

*Rates*

.40 cents an hour is paid into the JATC Fund for union contractors. THE ABC charges the student and will sometimes sponsor certain kids.




mdfriday said:


> I question whether you are a contractor. The aprenticeship program costs money, to the contractor. Just think, if it did not cost money, the comrades could get paid more........


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

ramseydax said:


> THE ABC charges the student and will sometimes sponsor certain kids.


Dax, why you back pedaling and editing all your comments? Did some of your brothers let you know the stuff you said was not brotherly? I can tell you surely your brothers got angry hearing that you are more equal than they are just because you took a class on PLC's and jumped a hundred on the book. :laughing:

You back edited out that you were a CW too? Or was that a CE? I can't remember, you purged the written record. I got no problems what so ever with organized hands, and you come across as militant for the IBEW, which is great as long as you're a good producer of quality work.

Yes Dax, we know all about the non-union apprenticeship charging college tuition rates for textbooks and classes. That's how I got my start too. Where the distinction must be made is: it is a whole hell of alot easier to get into the program that you pay out-of-pocket for, than it is to get into the ibew apprenticeship. The problem is: the non-union apprenticeship here to turns out twice as many guys when they have less than half the work.


----------



## wishmaster68 (Aug 27, 2009)

I've been on both sides and cant say either is better. When I worked non-union whatever the union guys were getting paid is what we got but we also go profit sharing, insurance and 2 weeks paid vacation. I could be wrong on saying this but I don't know if having to score high on the test important. I've worked with guys that barely passed the test but get them in the field and they would do some amazing work. Never understood why the union slams non-union worker. Down here eons ago the Union shot themselves in the foot so to speak when working in the plants they became such divas that no one wanted them anymore.


----------



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> Where the distinction must be made is: it is a whole hell of alot easier to get into the program that you pay out-of-pocket for, than it is to get into the ibew apprenticeship.


This is the one thing that annoys me the most about the Union fanboys.

Who _doesn't_ want a "free" education and more pay with better benefits?

Okay, now who wants to pay 40 dollars just to apply and wait several years with little chance of ever making it in?

IBEW may become victims of their own success. The ABC here in SEPA is stepping up their game by modeling their methods after the IBEW. Show up on time, no sleeping during class, thorough explanation of the material.

This doesn't hold true _everywhere _(especially in Southern Louisiana)_,_ but the notion that it is impossible to get a quality education at ABC doesn't hold the same truth as it used to. Time to set the pride aside.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> .
> 
> This doesn't hold true _everywhere _(especially in Southern Louisiana)_,_ but the notion that it is impossible to get a quality education at ABC doesn't hold the same truth as it used to. Time to set the pride aside.


In Northern Virginia the ABC school was very good, going back to the 70's, I am sure it varies from area to area just as the IBEW school does.


----------



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Okay, now who wants to pay 40 dollars just to apply and wait several years with little chance of ever making it in?


I have been Union for 30 years and never knew that some locals make you pay to apply, to me that is just dumb. I would never pay to apply any where and would not expect anyone else to either.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BDB said:


> I have been Union for 30 years and never knew that some locals make you pay to apply, to me that is just dumb. I would never pay to apply any where and would not expect anyone else to either.



Yeah, my local has a fee. You pay once. If you apply and are not excepted then apply again a year later, as long as you have the receipt from the first fee you don't need to pay again. 

Just for the record, I don't like it either.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

The thing about the free education through the IBEW is great but, I never hear anyone mention that apprentices pay for their books every year.

The other thing is that the ABC school in Baton Rouge is funded by some large plant contractors. For the most part these contractors require their employees to test to move up through the helper rankings and attend classes at the employers cost. For those that wish to become apprentice they are required to attend class which they pay for and then are reimbursed after completing a course and testing up to the next level. This goes though stages just like the IBEW up to testing out to the journey level. And hey it is an acceptable DOL apprenticeship.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> rlc3854;314753]The thing about the free education through the IBEW is great but, I never hear anyone mention that apprentices pay for their books every year.


I can only comment on my local's apprenticeship and I am sure that it is different from place to place.

Here you go to school one day a week. Your paid something like $8 per hour for the school day. The check is given to you at the end of the month, the cost of the books comes out of the check.


----------

