# Are lighting designers/manufacturers brainless?



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Is it just me or are lighting designers/manufacturers idiots?! Why has this whole year gone to customizing expensive light fixtures to be installed? Literally , every light I've touched this year has been designed and built with the installation design absent ? Do they design these lights not thinking that they need to be installed? Shouldn't they leave room for a connector , etc.?!?! I've literally needed to break down hundreds of lights this year and redesign the install portion because the engineers at the factory are brainless!!!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I feel your pain.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

These are fun. You have to hang them (I use small chain) from the ceiling plate, so you can wire them, and attach them to the plate, or have an apprentice hold them for 15 minutes. All the while, the glass shades are bumping into each other (leave the bubble wrap, or styrofoam on them). Stupid, stupid, stupid design. I guess they thought the fixture would levitate during installation.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> These are fun. You have to hange them from (I use small chain) from the ceiling plate, so you can wire them, and attach them to the plate, or have an apprentice hold them for 15 minutes. Stupid, stupid, stupid design.


Looks fun! What I been doing is very basic lighting fixtures that should be designed with installation in mind.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WronGun said:


> Looks fun! What I been doing is very basic lighting fixtures that should be designed with installation in mind.


You mean you haven't had the Restoration Hardware experience yet?

Your time will come...


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

99cents said:


> You mean you haven't had the Restoration Hardware experience yet? Your time will come...


I have and they can be a pain in the ass... But the ones I did were tedious but they all fit together at the end and didn't Have to customize anything


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I re-fixtured an entire house to Desperation Hardware. Yes, they were tedious. I asked the homeowner how she was going to change light bulbs. She said, "I don't care, I'm selling the house".


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Is it just me or are lighting designers/manufacturers idiots?! Why has this whole year gone to customizing expensive light fixtures to be installed? Literally , every light I've touched this year has been designed and built with the installation design absent ? Do they design these lights not thinking that they need to be installed? Shouldn't they leave room for a connector , etc.?!?! I've literally needed to break down hundreds of lights this year and redesign the install portion because the engineers at the factory are brainless!!!



You've entirely misapprehended what's happening in the market.

1) MOST fixtures ARE being made installation easy... DIY in fact.

So, YOU don't ever get called in to install such units.

If not DIY... a trunk slammer/ handy man does the (easy) deed.

2) Neither of the above parties is 'up' for dealing with one-of-a-kind artsy fartsy lighting fixtures.

{ Making these is a COMMON project seen on the DIY Network shows -- Kitchen Crashers, and such. }

The puppy Dan posted would fit their general scheme. They normally use / re-purpose stuff -- and use fake antiquing -- and multiple cord drops... as illustrated.

It's only when it becomes time to install these 'craft works' that the home owner baulks. ( The TV hosts have the fixtures professionally mounted every time. )

3) If they didn't make it themselves, figure on them purchasing it from some quasi-custom boutique -- or (worst of the worst) importing it from Italy. (the original center of glass production is still at it) :blink:

I can't explain why the land of Volta has such uniformly odd -- non UL -- light fixtures... but they are a 'rash' for our trade. Whom ever is producing these is such a small outfit that UL listings are never a consideration. No attempt is made to even design in that general direction. 

{ It's my guess that these puppies need #16 THHN taps, stranded, to provide the working distance during the dangle, and subsequent coil-up. This is Code worthy craft, just not our common practice. } 

&&&&

You might well add a { FastCap } "Third Hand" to your tool suite. :thumbsup:

Google the term.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

telsa said:


> You've entirely misapprehended what's happening in the market. 1) MOST fixtures ARE being made installation easy... DIY in fact. So, YOU don't ever get called in to install such units. If not DIY... a trunk slammer/ handy man does the (easy) deed. 2) Neither of the above parties is 'up' for dealing with one-of-a-kind artsy fartsy lighting fixtures. { Making these is a COMMON project seen on the DIY Network shows -- Kitchen Crashers, and such. } The puppy Dan posted would fit their general scheme. They normally use / re-purpose stuff -- and use fake antiquing -- and multiple cord drops... as illustrated. It's only when it becomes time to install these 'craft works' that the home owner baulks. ( The TV hosts have the fixtures professionally mounted every time. ) 3) If they didn't make it themselves, figure on them purchasing it from some quasi-custom boutique -- or (worst of the worst) importing it from Italy. (the original center of glass production is still at it) :blink: I can't explain why the land of Volta has such uniformly odd -- non UL -- light fixtures... but they are a 'rash' for our trade. Whom ever is producing these is such a small outfit that UL listings are never a consideration. No attempt is made to even design in that general direction. { It's my guess that these puppies need #16 THHN taps, stranded, to provide the working distance during the dangle, and subsequent coil-up. This is Code worthy craft, just not our common practice. }  &&&& You might well add a { FastCap } "Third Hand" to your tool suite. :thumbsup: Google the term.



I'm working in Hospitals installing expensive LED fixtures by the dozens , all different types , all different customizations that could easily be avoided. Like I said , no room for a basic connector !! Why must I band-saw half of the threads off of a basic MC connector when there is plenty of room in the shell of the light ? Why must I cut the metal structure of the interior of the light to fit the MC connector ? I've had to do this to all different applications installing Acuity Brands lights.


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## David C (May 19, 2015)

WronGun, would you happen to have a picture of those LED fixtures and of the customizations you had to make ? I'm surprised that you have to go trough such length for a simple connector issue.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Is it just me or are lighting designers/manufacturers idiots?! Why has this whole year gone to customizing expensive light fixtures to be installed? Literally , every light I've touched this year has been designed and built with the installation design absent ? Do they design these lights not thinking that they need to be installed? Shouldn't they leave room for a connector , etc.?!?! I've literally needed to break down hundreds of lights this year and redesign the install portion because the engineers at the factory are brainless!!!


That is why it is very important to let the customer know that the install of those fixtures is variable.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

It seems as the manufacturer designed the lights to be mounted up against a box rather than an MC whip down the wall. That's why there is no room for a connector. In 9 years working in this field I've never butted a light fixture up against a box, At least a big cased shop light/style fixture.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Your 'whip technique' is pretty common in residential / Romex racing.

In all of my commercial experience out here, boxes are set -- every time, for surface mounted light fixtures. Our inspectors won't tolerate whips dangling into stud walls... to await a subsequent fixture install.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

WronGun said:


> *Is it just me or are lighting designers/manufacturers idiots?! * Why has this whole year gone to customizing expensive light fixtures to be installed? Literally , every light I've touched this year has been designed and built with the installation design absent ? Do they design these lights not thinking that they need to be installed? Shouldn't they leave room for a connector , etc.?!?! I've literally needed to break down hundreds of lights this year and redesign the install portion because the engineers at the factory are brainless!!!


Yes most defiantly......:laughing::thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Other than that which is utilitarian , i do not purchase fixtures.....~CS~


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

in answer to OP, not brainles, just thoughtless!


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## yoricky (Aug 27, 2015)

most lights are made overseas. 
the engineer doesn't leave his desk to try and install the product.
most are copying other designs.
so if one guy make a mistake the mistake is copied.
usa companies that do a good job designing their lights are not found on the overseas open market.
so no they are not clueless they just are not told to design with the installer in mind.
by the time its gets to the contractor, the contractor has to deal with all the issues but has no one to complain to. so the suggestions will never make it back to the designers.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

yoricky said:


> most lights are made overseas. the engineer doesn't leave his desk to try and install the product. most are copying other designs. so if one guy make a mistake the mistake is copied. usa companies that do a good job designing their lights are not found on the overseas open market. so no they are not clueless they just are not told to design with the installer in mind. by the time its gets to the contractor, the contractor has to deal with all the issues but has no one to complain to. so the suggestions will never make it back to the designers.


Designing without installation in mind ! Craziness... Well I'm guessing that would keep customers/contractors from returning. They should rethink their planning/design strategies if they have any.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan the electricman said:


> These are fun. You have to hang them (I use small chain) from the ceiling plate, so you can wire them, and attach them to the plate, or have an apprentice hold them for 15 minutes. All the while, the glass shades are bumping into each other (leave the bubble wrap, or styrofoam on them). Stupid, stupid, stupid design. I guess they thought the fixture would levitate during installation.


I recently installed one of these on a sloped ceiling by myself. Lots of fun. I'm going back to this job today and I'll try to get a pic. 

You HAVE TO leave the styrofoam on the glass while mounting.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

One of the designers we work for loves to spec these: 










Its almost a safety hazard trying to install them.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Here you go:




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

I would have liked to see this install...


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Barjack said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are those uncommon radiance fixtures? I had a twit of a designer who loved those POSs. They have some with multicolored glass shades in different sizes. They always looked like some one made them in their basement. Funny thing is in the beginning the makers shipped whatever light bulb they had and wondered why the sockets burnt up on the tiny ones with 60-100w bulbs crammed in.
Ah yes memories (BTW that customer has been fired).


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## Joefixit2 (Nov 16, 2007)

These are fun, made in France. Two guys, two days to get six installed. (17 feet above floor). Two more to go tomorrow.

Don't even ask about the chandelier.


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## Joefixit2 (Nov 16, 2007)

Sparky J said:


> Are those uncommon radiance fixtures? I had a twit of a designer who loved those POSs. They have some with multicolored glass shades in different sizes. They always looked like some one made them in their basement. Funny thing is in the beginning the makers shipped whatever light bulb they had and wondered why the sockets burnt up on the tiny ones with 60-100w bulbs crammed in.
> Ah yes memories (BTW that customer has been fired).


 We installed one of those that came from Pottery Barn. Definitely do not unwrap the glass shades till finished!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Barjack said:


> One of the designers we work for loves to spec these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Damn thing looks like it should be growing in a petri dish....


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Big John said:


> Damn thing looks like it should be growing in a petri dish....


The only place the fixture wiring is accessible is above the fixture. If you're installing it by yourself, you have to hold the bottom with one hand, then reach around those metal spikes (they are sharp, by the way) and make the connections with the other hand. I did one by myself and the spikes were sticking into my neck the whole time. 

I kept thinking that if something went wrong they would find me on the floor impaled by this thing.


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## Azspark (Jan 24, 2014)

I feel this way all the time....


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