# Switched outlet fed with 2 two-wires. Break the tab on the neutral side or not?



## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

One circuit. Top is switched bottom not. Does 300.3 require the neutral to not parallel from the feed and reconnect at the device resulting in an imbalance in amperage on the two-wires?


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Under what conditions ?
You need to be more specific 
If you want accurate answers
Are we dealing with a gfci here ?
Neutral imbalance ???


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

No, you don't break the tab on the neuch. Why would you have two neutrals on one circuit?


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

The conditions are in a residential wall. If there is no three-wire and you bring 2 two-wires to achieve a half switched outlet do you re connect your neutrals at the outlet or keep them apart to ensure proper in/out amperage on the two-wires?

I say yes, break both tabs by the way.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

It seems to make more sense if you fed the receptacle with a black, red and white.
The black is constant hot and the red is the switched conductor. The hot tab would be broken *not the neutral tab*. If you continued the ckt, you would *pigtail the neutral*.

Send us a picture.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Bird dog said:


> It seems to make more sense if you fed the receptacle with a black, red and white.
> The black is constant hot and the red is the switched conductor. The hot tab would be broken *not the neutral tab*. If you continued the ckt, you would *pigtail the neutral*.



Yes, but if we are not using the three wire as previously stated.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Let me get this straight. You are bringing in one pair for power & one pair from your switch?


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## tersus (Jul 3, 2012)

If you begin with power at the receptacle, take a 2 wire to the switch, then a 2 wire back to the receptacle for the switched half, I would see breaking the tab on the neutral if you tied the neutrals together in the switch, otherwise you'd have a loop. I've never had a scenario like that--if you needed a neutral at the switch, I'd take a 3 wire from the receptacle to the switch.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> Let me get this straight. You are bringing in one pair for power & one pair from your switch?


I think he's confusing the white for power to the switch (properly identified) as a neut.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

tersus said:


> If you begin with power at the receptacle, take a 2 wire to the switch, then a 2 wire back to the receptacle for the switched half, I would see breaking the tab on the neutral if you tied the neutrals together in the switch, otherwise you'd have a loop. I've never had a scenario like that--if you needed a neutral at the switch, I'd take a 3 wire from the receptacle to the switch.


It's been awhile since I have brushed up on the NEC, however, the romex going to the switch should be one cable. If it is 12-2 you are wiring a white switched hot(the white is reidentified as a hot). If 12-3 use the black to the switch as constant hot, red switch leg and cap off the neutral.


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## tersus (Jul 3, 2012)

joebanana said:


> I think he's confusing the white for power to the switch (properly identified) as a neut.


Maybe he's on a jobsite trying to finish up and he doesn't have any 3-wire? If you need neutral at both the receptacle and the switch, you're going to have two 2-wires between the receptacle and the switch, and so you're either going to break the neutral tab on the receptacle, or an easier thing to do might be to not tie the neutrals together in the switch..am I right?


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Bird dog said:


> Let me get this straight. You are bringing in one pair for power & one pair from your switch?



Yes.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

tersus said:


> If you needed a neutral at the switch, I'd take a 3 wire from the receptacle to the switch.



No three-wire


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

joebanana said:


> I think he's confusing the white for power to the switch (properly identified) as a neut.



Not even close.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Bird dog said:


> It's been awhile since I have brushed up on the NEC, however, the romex going to the switch should be one cable. If it is 12-2 you are wiring a white switched hot(the white is reidentified as a hot). If 12-3 use the black to the switch as constant hot, red switch leg and cap off the neutral.



It's fed at the switch.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

tersus said:


> Maybe he's on a jobsite trying to finish up and he doesn't have any 3-wire? If you need neutral at both the receptacle and the switch, you're going to have two 2-wires between the receptacle and the switch, and so you're either going to break the neutral tab on the receptacle, or an easier thing to do might be to not tie the neutrals together in the switch..am I right?



Easier but I'm going for correct. I know the circuit will work.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

tersus said:


> Maybe he's on a jobsite trying to finish up and he doesn't have any 3-wire? If you need neutral at both the receptacle and the switch, you're going to have two 2-wires between the receptacle and the switch, and so you're either going to break the neutral tab on the receptacle, or an easier thing to do might be to not tie the neutrals together in the switch..am I right?


A neutral never goes to the switch, or the switch goes boom. The white wire in the NM gets power from the hot at the recep. and must be identified as the hot to the switch, the black is the switch leg. The neutral with the power NM goes to the neutral on the recep. And you break the hot side tab.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

joebanana said:


> A neutral never goes to the switch, or the switch goes boom. The white wire in the NM gets power from the hot at the recep. and must be identified as the hot to the switch, the black is the switch leg. The neutral with the power NM goes to the neutral on the recep. And you break the hot side tab.


It's fed at the switch. A two-wire is carrying the switched hot and the neutral, the other two-wire is carrying the constant hot and the neutral.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Okay. Two wire feed comes into switch. Three wire goes from switch to receptacle. In receptacle box break hot tab on receptacle & wire up receptacle. In switch box 1) wire nut neutrals together 2) pigtail both blacks to switch 3) connect red to switch.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

You cannot feed this receptacle with 2 wires if you want to have a receptacle that has a constant hot and a switched hot.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Bird dog said:


> Okay. Two wire feed comes into switch. Three wire goes from switch to receptacle. In receptacle box break hot tab on receptacle & wire up receptacle. In switch box 1) wire nut neutrals together 2) pigtail both blacks to switch 3) connect red to switch.


There is no three wire on this one.


Bird dog said:


> You cannot feed this receptacle with 2 wires if you want to have a receptacle that has a constant hot and a switched hot.


 The switch box contains a 2wire feed, a 2wire feed out, and the 2wire with the switched wire containing the same neutral of the circuit.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Ninety said:


> It's fed at the switch. A two-wire is carrying the switched hot and the neutral, the other two-wire is carrying the constant hot and the neutral.


You have 2, 12/2,( or 14/2) from the switch to the recep. Cap off (and ignore) the white wire in the NM with the sw. leg. At the switch, carry the neut. with the constant hot to the recep. The one (white wire)you capped at the switch, cap at the recep.(you don't need it) Or go get some 12/3(or 14/3). One of the 12/2(14/2) from the switch to the recep. you're only using the blk. as the sw. leg ignore the white (cap) Don't use it as a neut.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If you trace the 2 wires back to the panel, and find there's one ungrounded and one grounded, it doesn't matter how many switches and 3-wire NMs you toss into the circuit.... the hot and neutral will have the same amperage when it all works it's way back to the panel.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

joebanana said:


> You have 2, 12/2,( or 14/2) from the switch to the recep. Cap off (and ignore) the white wire in the NM with the sw. leg. At the switch, carry the neut. with the constant hot to the recep. The one (white wire)you capped at the switch, cap at the recep.(you don't need it) Or go get some 12/3(or 14/3). One of the 12/2(14/2) from the switch to the recep. you're only using the blk. as the sw. leg ignore the white (cap) Don't use it as a neut.


300.3(B)Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway,...


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

480sparky said:


> If you trace the 2 wires back to the panel, and find there's one ungrounded and one grounded, it doesn't matter how many switches and 3-wire NMs you toss into the circuit.... the hot and neutral will have the same amperage when it all works it's way back to the panel.


The amperage automatically divides in half between two paralleled conductors. If the tab on the neutral isn't broken and one ungrounded is running 16 amps and the other is 0, the neutrals will carry 8 amps back on each.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> You cannot feed this receptacle with 2 wires if you want to have a receptacle that has a constant hot and a switched hot.


I think he's talking about 2, 12, or 14/2's from the sw. to the recep. Apparently he doesn't have any 3 wire.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

joebanana said:


> I think he's talking about 2, 12, or 14/2's from the sw. to the recep. Apparently he doesn't have any 3 wire.


If that is what he is trying to do, it's not proper. He needs to get 3 conductor & do it right.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

See Post #19


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Bird dog said:


> If that is what he is trying to do, it's not proper. He needs to get 3 conductor & do it right.


Well.....yeah.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

So the question is does 300.3 prohibit the neutrals to splice back together at the outlet or 310.10(H)? It's actually the load side of a 3 way and I don't have 4wire since you guys are so interested.

And thank you all for replying too.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

300.3(B) conductors of the same circuit shall be in the same...cable...(shall means required) that's why I have said it must be a single cable

310.10(H) doesn't apply because these cables aren't 1/0 or larger

If you would like more info check out Mike Holt's website


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I get what you're saying. One 12-2 is the switched feed and the other 12-2 is the constant feed. Both contain the neutral of the circuit.

Yes, break the tab on both sides in that case.


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## tersus (Jul 3, 2012)

joebanana said:


> A neutral never goes to the switch, or the switch goes boom. .


You don't say? I meant to say 'to the switch opening', not tied to the switch itself. Reminds me I need write as detailed as possible on these forums.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Silly me, but how about *drawing out* how the circuit is wired?


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

Ninety said:


> The conditions are in a residential wall. If there is no three-wire and you bring 2 two-wires to achieve a half switched outlet do you re connect your neutrals at the outlet or keep them apart to ensure proper in/out amperage on the two-wires?
> 
> I say yes, break both tabs by the way.


In this case i think it make most sense for code reasons to break the tab on the outlet. You have a 12-2 for the constant hot and a 14-2 for the switched side. This will eliminate having a parallel neutral. 

On the other hand- use the switching set of 12-2 as a reverse switch leg ! (white constant hot and black switched) Then you won't have a second neutral to contend with.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

WOW! that simple question got weird! the first two words of the OP explained it all one circuit. neutral to neutral no matter how many times you connect it. it is an odd situation that 2 12-2 would be be fedding this, but having to break the tab? :blink:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

papaotis said:


> WOW! that simple question got weird! the first two words of the OP explained it all one circuit. neutral to neutral no matter how many times you connect it. it is an odd situation that 2 12-2 would be be fedding this, but having to break the tab? :blink:


Because it would result in the neutral being paralleled, I say tab has to go.


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## nof123 (May 14, 2011)

What's the difference if the neutrals are paralleled, its not like they are undersized. You just have a redundant neutral.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nof123 said:


> What's the difference if the neutrals are paralleled, its not like they are undersized. You just have a redundant neutral.


The NEC doesn't allow parallel neutrals for wires under 1/0. It also creates ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELD's

310.10(H)


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

joebanana said:


> A neutral never goes to the switch, or the switch goes boom. The white wire in the NM gets power from the hot at the recep. and must be identified as the hot to the switch, the black is the switch leg. The neutral with the power NM goes to the neutral on the recep. And you break the hot side tab.





Ninety said:


> It's fed at the switch. A two-wire is carrying the switched hot and the neutral, the other two-wire is carrying the constant hot and the neutral.


So change the connections in the switch box so that 1 2-wire carries the circuit (constant hot) to the receptacle and the other 2-wire can be a switch loop from the receptacle to the switch (wire it like joebanna said)


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Lou has the definitive answer and the OP sounds like he's gonna do whatever he wants anyway, so.....


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