# Pricing service changes



## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

eliazaralfaro20 said:


> This question is for the residential service guys. As far as pricing for changing panels, how do you figure pricing? Obviously depending at the size of service, but do you also price for how long you think you might take? Is there a website or book where I can get an idea of what to charge?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Minimum 1500 and then add for what you see may take more time or money for materials. 


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## eliazaralfaro20 (Nov 26, 2016)

So that 1500 is just labor. That's not including the material?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

eliazaralfaro20 said:


> This question is for the residential service guys. As far as pricing for changing panels, how do you figure pricing? Obviously depending at the size of service, but do you also price for how long you think you might take? Is there a website or book where I can get an idea of what to charge?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This really belongs in the Business Lounge. :thumbsup:

Your iPhone is not really suitable for any meaningful exchange.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

eliazaralfaro20 said:


> So that 1500 is just labor. That's not including the material?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




1500 covers a bare minimum panel change. Another 6-800 if you have to change the meter. Another 250 if you have to drive ground rods. Another 200 if you have to run a water bond. 50 for jumping the hot and cold lines. 100-300 if you have to re feed the service conductors. Etc. 


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The are variables, such as a captive panel in a dining room with recently applied $400 a roll french wallpaper....

A panel replaced vs. a panel moved.....invoking 210.12B....

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I do a lot of service changes. There are variables that can change a lot. Riser or mast above the roof? Flush mount panel or surface mount like Steve mentioned above? 8 existing circuits to rewire or 35? That along could add hours onto the job.

Most service changes that I do are very similar, a riser up the side of the house, replacing a flush mounted panel on a new piece of plywood on the basement wall. 10-20 circuits. I do these for $2,500. Everything included, grounding, new meter and riser, permits, etc. 

They go pretty quickly so if I broke it down into hours I would be making more per hour than I would normally charge, but that's OK because a service change is a large and important thing and customers never have an issue paying $2,500.

I know of other contractors charging a lot more and the big guys like Mr Electric charging up to $4,000.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Even in my depressed economy, Hack's numbers work. I will allow somewhat lower pricing if the service and panel change are part of a bigger reno project since I'm on site already and the permit covers everything. Service changes, however, are still an area where a guy can make some money.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Quick and easy. $16-18 an amp.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Quick and easy. $16-18 an amp.


eliazaralfaro20, while my above price of $2,500 was for a 200A service, my 100A service price is only $300 cheaper. There is about $100-150 less in material and a little bit less labor due to smaller pipe and easier bending wire.

If you use macmikeman's method of pricing per amp, you will be losing way too much money on 100A services.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

$ 2,500+ depending on complexity


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> eliazaralfaro20, while my above price of $2,500 was for a 200A service, my 100A service price is only $300 cheaper. There is about $100-150 less in material and a little bit less labor due to smaller pipe and easier bending wire.
> 
> If you use macmikeman's method of pricing per amp, you will be losing way too much money on 100A services.


Not here. 100 amp service change here is pull off old 100 amp meter/main (rusted), and 13 feet of seu cable, and old weatherhead. Install new 100 amp meter main and new 13' of seu cable and weatherhead. Re- attach existing #6 grounding electrode conductor from ground rod. Reuse existing subfeed cable to sub panel. 2 hours labor. (3 if drunk) 



Repeat process every 5 years due to salt created rusting conditions .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Not here. 100 amp service change here is pull off old 100 amp meter/main (rusted), and 13 feet of seu cable, and old weatherhead. Install new 100 amp meter main and new 13' of seu cable and weatherhead. Re- attach existing #6 grounding electrode conductor from ground rod. Reuse existing subfeed cable to sub panel. 2 hours labor. (3 if drunk)
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat process every 5 years due to salt created rusting conditions .


Your stupid backwoods country is way off from what normal people do. A service change involves changing the main panel even if the first disconnect isn't in it.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

MODS seems to me this should be in business lounge ?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Your stupid backwoods country is way off from what normal people do. A service change involves changing the main panel even if the first disconnect isn't in it.


The service disconnect is the main panel since it contains the main overcorrect protective device. So I do change the main panels. 

If the subfeed is really bad off, or the sub panel is about to join Duke Kahanamoku in that great Waikiki in the sky, I charge more and fix those items also.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> The service disconnect is the main panel since it contains the main overcorrect protective device. So I do change the main panels.


 Bologna. All of the rest of us change out the panel as part of a service upgrade.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Bologna. All of the rest of us change out the panel as part of a service upgrade.


I bet you pigtail all devices you install also. And you put afci's in for every breaker you swap out. And I bet you only stock tamper resistant outlets on your van. And I bet you only use copper wire and never aluminum. And I bet your panels are all bolt on type since they cost more. 


Why change out a perfectly fine sub panel when the meter can is rusted off the wall?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Why change out a perfectly fine sub panel when the meter can is rusted off the wall?


This thread is about service changes, which include panel upgrades for us normal people. The OP even mentions changing panels.

Go find a thread talking about only changing the outside stuff due to living in a stupid place and post your "per amp" price there.

ETA: Damnit, why do you make me yell at you?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Muhahahahaha..............


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## eliazaralfaro20 (Nov 26, 2016)

How many service changes do y'all get a year? 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eliazaralfaro20 said:


> How many service changes do y'all get a year?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have a yearly count right in front of me. Over the years I have been in business, there were periods in which I was doing 1.5 service upgrades a week for 4+ months, then slowed down to one a month or less for a few months.

I remember the 1.5 number because I was trying to get 2 per week and if I did that I wouldn't be happy as could be.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

For a 100a to 200a upgrade im in the 3400-3700 ballpark... can't forget about the 14-20 combination breakers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> For a 100a to 200a upgrade im in the 3400-3700 ballpark... can't forget about the 14-20 combination breakers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you sure you have to upgrade to AFCI's when doing a service upgrade?

I would hate that because the existing old wiring in most houses here would trip an AFCI and it would take dozens of hours to troubleshoot it all.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Are you sure you have to upgrade to AFCI's when doing a service upgrade?
> 
> I would hate that because the existing old wiring in most houses here would trip an AFCI and it would take dozens of hours to troubleshoot it all.


That would be a disaster, arc faulting old crappy wiring. Actually, it would be good for the rewire business  .


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I could be wrong but I thought you needed to bring it up to code when doing a service... I don't have many under my belt but the few I've done so far I installed all the proper afci/gfci breakers...

I did pick up some extra troubleshoot work on a few circuits , but I always explain the situation And charge accordingly 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

There may be some places that require you to upgrade all applicable circuits to AFCI's during a service upgrade, but not many.

Most of the time it's only required when you add a new circuit. Some areas require it when adding onto an existing circuit.

I would definitely look into it before your next panel change.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> [Arc Fault] Some areas require it when adding onto an existing circuit.


Do you mean some areas of the country, or some areas of NJ? I thought all of NJ did not require arc faults on branch circuit extensions. 

I got that from page 78 of the amendments. 

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/pdf_regs/njac_5_23_3.pdf


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cabletie said:


> Do you mean some areas of the country, or some areas of NJ? I thought all of NJ did not require arc faults on branch circuit extensions.
> 
> I got that from page 78 of the amendments.
> 
> http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/pdf_regs/njac_5_23_3.pdf


I'm talking about areas of the country.

I don't know much about NJ requirements for AFCI's, I avoid using them by not getting inspections.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I'm talking about areas of the country.
> 
> I don't know much about NJ requirements for AFCI's, I avoid using them by not getting inspections.


What's critical is what the AHJ deems to be 'grandfathered.' 

That's the universal 'out.'


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

cabletie said:


> Do you mean some areas of the country, or some areas of NJ? I thought all of NJ did not require arc faults on branch circuit extensions.
> 
> I got that from page 78 of the amendments.
> 
> http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/pdf_regs/njac_5_23_3.pdf





> ii. Section 210.8(A)10, Dwelling Units (Ground-fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel) shall be deleted.
> 
> iii. In Section 210.12(A), entitled "Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Dwelling Units," "kitchens" and "laundry
> areas" shall be deleted.
> ...


Interesting how NJ seems anti-afci, yet trashed the 210.12B ex here....:001_huh:~CS~:001_huh:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Interesting how NJ seems anti-afci, yet trashed the 210.12B ex here....:001_huh:~CS~:001_huh:


I'm not really following Steve. It seems like getting rid of 210.12B goes right along with the other anti-AFCI stuff.

NJ has always been holding back on AFCI's requirements, at least in comparison to other states. But we are catching up.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I'm not really following Steve. It seems like getting rid of 210.12B goes right along with the other anti-AFCI stuff.
> 
> NJ has always been holding back on AFCI's requirements, at least in comparison to other states. But we are catching up.


T210.12B ex allows us to _opt out on afci's_ for most service upgrades Hax>>>



> Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where
> the extension if the existing conductors is not more than
> 1.8 m (6 ft) and does not include any additional outlets or
> devices.


~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> T210.12B ex allows us to _opt out on afci's_ for most service upgrades Hax>>>
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Oh, I see. But we don't have to upgrade to AFCI's for service changes anyway. 

I'm not sure the reason, whether it's in the amendments or not, but I have never heard of any inspector requiring AFCI's in any service upgrade situation. 

And things like that spread fast, I remember hearing about the inspector in a town about 30 miles away requiring a Kenny Clamp for the GEC in a service upgrade. Everyone went ape-sh1t about it. :laughing:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I think it is in the rehab code that we don't need arc fault breakers for service changes?


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

cabletie said:


> I think it is in the rehab code that we don't need arc fault breakers for service changes?




If you extend a circuit more than 6ft to move the panel then you need to AFCI protect the circuits. If not, and you do not modify or extend the circuit beyond the 6ft at the beginning of the circuit then no AFCI's are required. 


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Oh, I see. But we don't have to upgrade to AFCI's for service changes anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...















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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Drsparky14 said:


> If you extend a circuit more than 6ft to move the panel then you need to AFCI protect the circuits. If not, and you do not modify or extend the circuit beyond the 6ft at the beginning of the circuit then no AFCI's are required.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not here in NJ.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Confirmed from inspector today that you do not need to update breakers unless you make any changes or additions to that branch circuit 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Confirmed from inspector today that you do not need to update breakers unless you make any changes or additions to that branch circuit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What happened with the SE cable issue??

Never mind, wrong thread.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

We need to change it out... however all the breakers Were done correctly because we moved the panel over 20' so that calls for every breaker to be brought up to code 


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Not here in NJ.




Must be nice, I'm in Oregon and Washington and they are uberstrict. 

We cannot use ground rods for a new construction building anymore either. It's ufer or ground ring. 

I had a concrete contractor not stub up the ufers so I walked him through what he would have to do (drill down to the rebar and tie wire to a new piece of rebar) turns out he didn't put any rebar in the foundation so he ran a piece of #6 copper from one rebar to the next. The inspector testing it would have gotten a pass not knowing what was done. But then the service ditch was dug for conduit by the utility and the inspector was there the same day for a ditch inspection for my post lights. The concrete contractor got a criminal charge for attempted murder in the 3rd for knowingly and fraudulently installing an unsafe grounding electrode system. $250,000 fine and cannot have a contractor license in Washington ever again. 

We then had to have a trench dug around the entire 4000 square foot home where we dropped #2 copper in the ditch all around the home. It was not fun and in my opinion was the same as burying cash in the ground. 

Sorry for getting off topic there. Squirrel moment. 


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

WronGun said:


> We need to change it out... however all the breakers Were done correctly because we moved the panel over 20' so that calls for every breaker to be brought up to code
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Unless you move the panel closer to the home runs. I did this and moved a panel 30' without having to arc protect the circuit. As I did not extend the wires, I shortened them. 


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Drsparky14 said:


> Unless you move the panel closer to the home runs. I did this and moved a panel 30' without having to arc protect the circuit. As I did not extend the wires, I shortened them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sweet. :notworthy:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Confirmed from inspector today that you do not need to update breakers unless you make any changes or additions to that branch circuit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's known in legal circles as a "Grandfather Clause."


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

WronGun said:


> We need to change it out... however all the breakers Were done correctly because we moved the panel over 20' so that calls for every breaker to be brought up to code
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Plan B might have been to leave the existing panel as is, change its status to sub-panel, and set a new Service to suit.

Then a feeder would be run from the new Service to the old panel. ( SER or some such; *say (3) #3 Al XHHW-2 in a 1" EMT lash-up*; assuming that the original work is a 60 A panel, and that you're restricted to 60C terminations. )

[ Of course, 1" EMT is easily bent in the field, and is a snap to strap to exposed framing so typical of older basements. ]

From the new Service, you'd toss in your additional loads -- and perhaps shift some loads out of the old panel, too.

Whatever floats your boat. 

If the old panel is too far gone, it can be swapped out -- in place -- by new gear -- and still follow the above scheme.

The problem with putting old circuits on AFCI breakers is that they are very likely to make your labor intensity 'blow-up.' No-one prices a heavy-up with the idea that they're going to be tearing the walls apart to track down some weird 'AFCI itch.'

In sum, imposing AFCI breakers on old// ancient work is to be avoided at all times, lest you go bankrupt.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

WronGun said:


> We need to change it out... however all the breakers Were done correctly because we moved the panel over 20' so that calls for every breaker to be brought up to code
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Major $$$ changer there WronGun....









So let me inform you what has become a _popular_ approach on my turf.

1st~de-energize and unplug everything from your old circuitry, pull any hardwired smokes. Defeat any hardwired appliances, i.e-furnace dish, oven, ref, pig, ac from the process @ the point of interface.

Meg it twice, record your readings via circuit #

Make up your panel, test every afci out under load, then defeat them via nutting the hots off>>>










Leave the lights _(assuming separation from power)_ and ONE normal breaker made to an isolated receptacle outlet under said panel for all the finish work toolage

Spark it all up when the toolage leaves for the final.

Ask _(and this is important) _if the furnace is required to be afci protected _(some AHJ's insist if the em switch is facing out into the living area it be so) _ , and that said request be recorded IN WRITING by your ahj

Good luck

~CS~


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Are you sure you have to upgrade to AFCI's when doing a service upgrade?
> 
> I would hate that because the existing old wiring in most houses here would trip an AFCI and it would take dozens of hours to troubleshoot it all.







And ye it works on any brand of panel. Pretty well I might add.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd never get any sleep were i to worry about what customers plug into their circuitry 

~CS~


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I'd never get any sleep were i to worry about what customers plug into their circuitry
> 
> ~CS~


We've found circuits that have had drywall screws put through them just barely poking into the insulation. Far more useful that finding a troublesome piece of electronics. :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ya know what happens here? The cloth insulation comes off of the conductors, so people tape up the hot conductor but don't care about the neutral. So every circuit in the house has at least one neutral touching the box, if not 4 or 5.

I would probably refuse a service change job in which I had to upgrade 25 breakers to AFCI's.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Not here in NJ.


That's at least one good thing about Jersey


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Drsparky14 said:


> Must be nice, I'm in Oregon and Washington and they are uberstrict.
> 
> We cannot use ground rods for a new construction building anymore either. It's ufer or ground ring.
> 
> ...



That is the most ludicrous charge given ever. The ''authorities'' cannot even prove a grounding system installed at a dwelling is of any good at all.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Ya know what happens here? The cloth insulation comes off of the conductors, so people tape up the hot conductor but don't care about the neutral. So every circuit in the house has at least one neutral touching the box, if not 4 or 5.
> 
> I would probably refuse a service change job in which I had to upgrade 25 breakers to AFCI's.


I have done this for home inspectors and any house over 80 years or so it is a given that they will not hold. Usually the California 3 way on the stairs.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I have done this for home inspectors and any house over 80 years or so it is a given that they will not hold. Usually the California 3 way on the stairs.


Cleaning up a California 3-way at a stairwell -- sheesh -- there's a budget buster.

You're best 'out' is to change the switching logic to wireless, as otherwise, you're short one conductor.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Yea, or just not put it on a GFCI/afci.


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

telsa said:


> Cleaning up a California 3-way at a stairwell -- sheesh -- there's a budget buster.
> 
> You're best 'out' is to change the switching logic to wireless, as otherwise, you're short one conductor.




Use a maestro switch. They need only 2 wires to the secondary switch to work. 

You hook power in and switch out on maestro switch. Then power to mechanical switch. The mechanical switch sends power back to the maestro switch. This activates the relay. 


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> Yea, or just not put it on a GFCI/afci.


Switching the neutral ( California 3-way ) figures to be lethal to all sorts of new wave illumination.

I don't work that end of the street. But if I did, I'd proffer the bad news to the HO straight off.

It's high time to fix this matter. :thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Speaking of cleaning, you are in for a rinse.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

They can vary greatly my last 4 services were priced :
2800, 4800, 5600, 2500

The 2800 and 2500 I did for a remodel GC in which he marked up , and these were all 100 to 200 Amp Service Upgrades ... I have one scheduled now for 3600

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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Services around here are pretty similar task wise.
You should get use to the types of houses in you service area and have a number in your pocket all the time.

For a run the mill 200 amp service going rate is ~2300.00 in south NJ, ~1500 in phila (no-one has licenses in phila). When we do them its usually a favor for a commercial customer or friend and we charge going rate. 

Sometimes you get more if there are extenuating conditions like and extra 60' of service cable because the mast in the front of house and panel is in the back.


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## jsmart84 (Nov 20, 2011)

On a service 60 to 100 upto 200 amp I'm in the area of 2350 and up depending on scenario with total.circuits rigid riser or meter main. 
As far as afci we only have to do it on new builds or adding circuits etc.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> That is the most ludicrous charge given ever. The ''authorities'' cannot even prove a grounding system installed at a dwelling is of any good at all.


I was thinking that also. That and why not just throw 20 foot of #4 bare in the service trench. 

I knew a guy who knew a guy that may or may not have hammerdrilled a piece of half inch rebar into a foundation when the footing guy forgot to stub up a ufer.


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