# Generator final inspection



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Had a final inspection on the latest standby generator install. Fire and plumbing passed no problems or issues. I'm there to meet with the EI in case there are any issues and then I wait for the plumber to come back, make his connection to the generator after the pressure test, then start the generator, program it, then finally retain the balance from the owner. 

So today I meet with the inspector and he asks me about the neutral terminal bus I have installed in the previous MB "Challenger" 200 amp panel. This panel contains no MBJ as the EGC'S and neutrals are bonded to the enclosure. I added an isolated grounding bus for the neutrals to comply with code. He says to me that I didn't even have to isolate grounds and neutrals and referred me to section 230.82(5). 

230.82 Equipment Connected to the *Supply Side of Service
Disconnect*. Only the following equipment shall be
permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service
disconnecting means:
(5) Taps used only to supply load management devices,
circuits for standby power systems, fire pump equipment,
and fire and sprinkler alarms, if provided with
service equipment and installed in accordance with requirements
for service-entrance conductors.

That doesn't make any sense to me as it pertains to the work here. But I have learned to just go along for the ride and listen instead of arguing unless he hands me a red failed sticker. It passed and I feel the inspector here is clueless. 

What do you think?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Also, tries to tell me that I am responsible for fixing up the EGC's because a #12 and #14 cannot be under the same terminal. I agree with that, but I never had to rework any of the equipment grounding conductors. Then, on top of all this, tells the HO's that they have some flexible cord in the basement for their oven and that it needs to be replaced. Then tells me privately that he's got me some work. Again, the flexible cord was existing and unrelated to the standby generator wiring that's been permitted. 

Morons.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Mag, Start to finish, how many days for this install two ? including inspection


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

dronai said:


> Mag, Start to finish, how many days for this install two ? including inspection


I was out there 3 different days but none of which were full days. I think next time I will try to do the ATS and the generator on the same day. I work by myself so I need the plumber to help me get it into place. The more you do of these the faster they go, like anything else. Oh, and forget the aluminum to save a few bucks. Use copper and it goes a heck of a lot faster.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Here's the one in question. Pretty simple when gas and elec are right there.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> What do you think?





Magnettica said:


> Then tells me privately that he's got me some work.


...sounds like he has some ethic issues.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I was out there 3 different days but none of which were full days. I think next time I will try to do the ATS and the generator on the same day. I work by myself so I need the plumber to help me get it into place. The more you do of these the faster they go, like anything else. Oh, and forget the aluminum to save a few bucks. Use copper and it goes a heck of a lot faster.


I agree... skip the AL and use only CU... you can buy long lengths of wire and it won't go to waste...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...sounds like he has some ethic issues.


On top of that.... the guy smokes while doing the inspection, puts it out with his shoe, and then throws the butt into the HO's bushes. WTF?! 

For anyone who doesn't know already, that is rude, unprofessional, and disrespectful.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> I agree... skip the AL and use only CU... you can buy long lengths of wire and it won't go to waste...


I learned that the hard way (but at least I learned!). Also, the #2 AL won't fit under those damn lugs on the generac!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I learned that the hard way (but at least I learned!). Also, the #2 AL won't fit under those damn lugs on the generac!


The Generacs I just got delivered have large lugs for neutral and ground..


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> The Generacs I just got delivered have large lugs for neutral and ground..


Nice, are you able to take some pics from iPhone? :laughing:


Btw, Bob.... do you like that cap on the wooden 4x4 support post?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

That post vs underground is what they wanted, or easier for you ? looks clean anyway. How many circuits is that ATS ? The Gen is a 10KW or larger ?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Nice, are you able to take some pics from iPhone? :laughing:
> 
> 
> Btw, Bob.... do you like that cap on the wooden 4x4 support post?


Nice cap.. but using wood 4X4 is like a land line..yesterday's technology.. :laughing:

I use PVC you can buy from HD for anything going in the ground for a post..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> On top of that.... the guy smokes while doing the inspection, puts it out with his shoe, and then throws the butt into the HO's bushes. WTF?!
> 
> For anyone who doesn't know already, that is rude, unprofessional, and disrespectful.


99% of smokers are slobs when it comes to getting rid of the butts.. out the car window is the most common method...

They don't want to use that device called an ashtray because it stinks up their car.. :no::no:


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

It looks to be a twenty. My only concern is that at least in our heat the PVC will start to wrap and bend downward. Other then that looks good.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I think you did the right thing by separating the EGC's and the neutrals. The inspectors must have some left handed cigarettes.


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> On top of that.... the guy smokes while doing the inspection, puts it out with his shoe, and then throws the butt into the HO's bushes. WTF?!
> 
> For anyone who doesn't know already, that is rude, unprofessional, and disrespectful.


I give helpers one warning about that.
If it happens again I fire them.

Nice job BTW! 
I think I'm going to start getting into back up generators when i get back to Hawaii. Kinda seems like a niche that needs to be filled.

Personally on a meter main sub-panel i don't add an extra bus for neutrals.
Nothing in the code book that says i need to and it's nice having the neutral and ground of a circuit under the same lug.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

250.24(A)(5)

250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current
Systems.
(A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring
system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a
grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded
service conductor, at each service, in accordance with
250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor
shall not be connected to normally non–currentcarrying
metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding
conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side
of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted
in this article.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Nice cap.. but using wood 4X4 is like a land line..yesterday's technology.. :laughing:
> 
> I use PVC you can buy from HD for anything going in the ground for a post..



If you don't mind me asking... what kind of PVC are you using in place of the treated 4x4?


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

I think he is talking about this PVC POST


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Here's the one in question. Pretty simple when gas and elec are right there.


Looks like a 110.26 violtion.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Looks like a 110.26 violtion.


That's what you would cite?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

dronai said:


> That post vs underground is what they wanted, or easier for you ? looks clean anyway. How many circuits is that ATS ? The Gen is a 10KW or larger ?


• ATS is service rated at 200 amps. 
• No circuit breakers. 
• Trenching requires 18" deep and adds cost to the job.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> • ATS is service rated at 200 amps.
> • No circuit breakers.
> • Trenching requires 18" deep and adds cost to the job.


So Nexus with load shedding then ?

Mag, that looks about 5' away 18" for 5' is about 1 hr 

Is the code in your area 18" minimum away from the structure ? 

So many questions, because I think I finally sold one.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

dronai said:


> So Nexus with load shedding then ?
> 
> Mag, that looks about 5' away 18" for 5' is about 1 hr
> 
> ...


You can dig if you wish to.

Nexus. :yes: 

The 18" away from the house is a Generac requirement (110.3(B).

You also must be 60" away from any window or ventilation opening.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Is that Schedule 80 PVC?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> If you don't mind me asking... what kind of PVC are you using in place of the treated 4x4?


It is a basic PVC fence post.. they come in 10' lengths and either 4X4 or 5X5 and you can get the same decorative cap you had in wood.. 

Most common color is white.. I also go to the local PVC fence store and buy the scratched posts from them..

Small pieces they have no use for and you can get them really cheap..


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Is that Schedule 80 PVC?


It's not, but that's something to consider for the next one. That actually makes a hell of a lot of sense.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> It is a basic PVC fence post.. they come in 10' lengths and either 4X4 or 5X5 and you can get the same decorative cap you had in wood..
> 
> Most common color is white.. I also go to the local PVC fence store and buy the scratched posts from them..
> 
> Small pieces they have no use for and you can get them really cheap..



The PVC is hollow is it not? I'm not certain but always though the PVC went over the wooden post, like for a deck. I'm an electrician I dunno. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The PVC is hollow is it not? I'm not certain but always though the PVC went over the wooden post, like for a deck. I'm an electrician I dunno. :laughing:


Yes.. it is hollow.. sometimes I recess an old work box for a receptacle that controls a LV transformer for outdoor lighting....

The 5X5 PVC pole also lets you mount FS boxes for pools that have the "eyelets" on the side... plenty of room..


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

It it's hollow it's not offering much support IMO. 


Arlington makes a nice post for pools.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Nice job mags....overall...was this profitable..?..I mean more acturatly...would you do 1 a week if you could vs service change out...we don't have much of a market up state.....I do a bunch of transfer switches not any systems like this...a couple HVaC guys put them in....and push them heavily....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Looks like a 110.26 violtion.





Magnettica said:


> That's what you would cite?


I am saying the inspector should cite that, for sure the PVC is in the required workspace of the transfer switch, maybe the gas line as well.

Also in my personal opinion that looks like crap running that high off the ground, both the gas line and the PVC.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I am saying the inspector should cite that, for sure the PVC is in the required workspace of the transfer switch, maybe the gas line as well.
> 
> Also in my personal opinion that looks like crap running that high off the ground, both the gas line and the PVC.


There's plenty of working space in front of that ATS so you're wrong. :tongue_smilie:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

RGH said:


> Nice job mags....overall...was this profitable..?..I mean more acturatly...would you do 1 a week if you could vs service change out...we don't have much of a market up state.....I do a bunch of transfer switches not any systems like this...a couple HVaC guys put them in....and push them heavily....



Definitely. The nice thing about them is the cost of the materials is practically nothing (less than $200). Yes, if I could choose to do to do (1) a week I most certainly would. I have another one coming up next week too!


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## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> I was out there 3 different days but none of which were full days. I think next time I will try to do the ATS and the generator on the same day. I work by myself so I need the plumber to help me get it into place. The more you do of these the faster they go, like anything else. Oh, and forget the aluminum to save a few bucks. Use copper and it goes a heck of a lot faster.


How does copper go faster than aluminum:001_huh:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> It's not, but that's something to consider for the next one. That actually makes a hell of a lot of sense.


*352.10(F) Exposed.* PVC conduit shall be permitted for exposed
work. PVC conduit used exposed in areas of physical damage
shall be identified for the use.
_Informational Note: PVC Conduit, Type Schedule 80, is
identified for areas of physical damage._



Magnettica said:


> There's plenty of working space in front of that ATS so you're wrong. :tongue_smilie:


Really? It looks like you have to straddle that conduit to work on the ATS.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Ron... what do you have running from the ATS to the panel??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> There's plenty of working space in front of that ATS so you're wrong. :tongue_smilie:


That electrical conduit is clearly in the working space.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Ron... what do you have running from the ATS to the panel??


Looks like SER.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Looks like SER.


By the apparent distance I'd bet two TA's.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It wouldn't pass here due to the exact thing BBQ said. Show us a side view and help us let you off the hook.


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## forgotflying (Mar 2, 2011)

BBQ said:


> That electrical conduit is clearly in the working space.


I would have to agree.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Looks like SER.


I thought so too.. but it looks too skinny for 2/0 SER... and it doesn't bend that easy either...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I thought so too.. but it looks too skinny for 2/0 SER... and it doesn't bend that easy either...


Its either that or LFMC ......... and Mag is strong like bull.:jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Its either that or LFMC ......... and Mag is strong like bull.:jester:


All that good living is paying off.. :laughing:

Here I would have to sleeve the SER as per LIPA rules..

Eric is worried about the PVC not being #80 and here we have exposed service cable on the side of the house..


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

B4T said:


> All that good living is paying off.. :laughing:
> 
> Here I would have to sleeve the SER as per LIPA rules..
> 
> Eric is worried about the PVC not being #80 and here we have exposed service cable on the side of the house..


 
Would you have gone underground with the conduit and gas line ? Here above grade wouldn't fly


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

dronai said:


> Would you have gone underground with the conduit and gas line ? Here above grade wouldn't fly


Underground.. I don't fit in tight spots like in front of the ATS.. too much like work.

Also the meter reader has to step over the conduits to see the numbers... he is not going to walk around the generator if the gate is on other side of house..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I would not gone underground, I would have been down on the ground.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

erics37 said:


> 352.10(F) Exposed. PVC conduit shall be permitted for exposed
> work. PVC conduit used exposed in areas of physical damage
> shall be identified for the use.
> Informational Note: PVC Conduit, Type Schedule 80, is
> ...




What's posing a physical damage threat? 


Lawn mower no. 
Vehicle traffic no. 
Human traffic no.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Here's another look at it. If you can't work on the ats then you have issues or you might look for an alternate line of work. 

Just my opinion.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> It wouldn't pass here due to the exact thing BBQ said. Show us a side view and help us let you off the hook.


I'm already off the hook the checks been cashed.

It's ser btw.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Here's another look at it. If you can't work on the ats then you have issues or you might look for an alternate line of work.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Of course you can work on the ATS but if you don't know or can't follow the code you should look for an alternate line of work. 

Just my opinion.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Of course you can work on the ATS but if you don't know or can't follow the code you should look for an alternate line of work.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Well, that's not going to happen.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Well, that's not going to happen.


Which, follow the code, or look for an alternate line of work?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Of course you can work on the ATS but if you don't know or can't follow the code you should look for an alternate line of work.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Well... your opinion sucks..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I would not gone underground, I would have been down on the ground.


Down on the ground the conduits gets stepped on and covered in mulch..

How far can you run a conduit on top of the ground before it becomes a code violation??


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> I thought so too.. but it looks too skinny for 2/0 SER... and it doesn't bend that easy either...


Why would it be 2/0 SER for a 20 kw, unless that is not a 20 kw


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricalwiz said:


> Why would it be 2/0 SER for a 20 kw, unless that is not a 20 kw


That is feeding the 200a panel when ATS is not energized...


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> That is feeding the 200a panel when ATS is not energized...


Oh, Sorry
I thought you were talking about line going to the generator


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> What's posing a physical damage threat?
> 
> 
> Lawn mower no.
> ...


Well it looks like they like to spread mulch around. They probably pull weeds too, and perhaps prune those shrubs. All it would take is one person running into it with a wheelbarrow or something.

Besides, you installed it right at knee level :laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

You guys are all nuts! Maybe big foot might come by in the middle of the night and trip over it. Or maybe a cow happens to be walking by and stops and gets his nose wedged and stuck between the pipes. Then what?


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Mag, does that unit have a lug on the frame? If so, how did you bond it? Thanks


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> You guys are all nuts! Maybe big foot might come by in the middle of the night and trip over it. Or maybe a cow happens to be walking by and stops and gets his nose wedged and stuck between the pipes. Then what?


I may be nuts but your installation is wrong as far as 110.26:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

3xdad said:


> Mag, does that unit have a lug on the frame? If so, how did you bond it? Thanks


It has provisions for a grounding electrode conductor attachment. It's bonded by a #8 EGC run with the #4 copper feeders (4-wire).


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## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

I still want to know how copper is "faster" than aluminum?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

FlatRateGator said:


> I still want to know how copper is "faster" than aluminum?


Speaking for myself.. smaller wire is always faster when working it tight spots..


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## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

B4T said:


> Speaking for myself.. smaller wire is always faster when working it tight spots..


Whilst true, it is just a matter of seconds. I'd rather save the money on wire:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

FlatRateGator said:


> Whilst true, it is just a matter of seconds. I'd rather save the money on wire:laughing:


Time is money... bigger wire.. bigger pipe...


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Here's one I just did. A 20 kw GE. Gas line still has to be installed


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

with all due respect...if you did that at my house you wouldnt get paid ...thats just a tripping hazard if you have to work on meter or switch... and that carflex
looks like chit.....:whistling2:


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## TandM-allday (Apr 15, 2013)

That is a complete hack job


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

TandM-allday said:


> That is a complete hack job


You sound like a Troll I know... :whistling2::laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Here's one I just did. A 20 kw GE. Gas line still has to be installed


Dear lord if I ever did an abortion like that I would never take a picture of it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Dear lord if I ever did an abortion like that I would never take a picture of it.


It is just another way of doing a job... I don't see what got your panties in a knot.. :blink::blink:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> You guys are all nuts! Maybe big foot might come by in the middle of the night and trip over it. Or maybe a cow happens to be walking by and stops and gets his nose wedged and stuck between the pipes. Then what?


There is clearly more then one violation in that pic, and just like the other generator pic, it's a freakin abortion.

That has got to be one of the worse installs I have ever seen.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

B4T said:


> It is just another way of doing a job... I don't see what got your panties in a knot.. :blink::blink:


It looks like crap.

Hell they even sell pads to mount the generator onto.

Bury the pipe or get another line of work.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Hell they even sell pads to mount the generator onto.


I mount mine on a 4X6 CCA frame.. it this hack also??


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I mount mine on a 4X6 CCA frame.. it this hack also??


Yes, it is.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

dronai said:


> So Nexus with load shedding then ?
> 
> Mag, that looks about 5' away 18" for 5' is about 1 hr
> 
> ...


Wow ive sold 11 since sandy...all kohlers. They have become all the rage here.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I would have run seal tight low or just buried it all. I would have and have in the past just explained it to the home owner that i would like to bury it and need a little more money. I think the pvc is gonna droop after a while.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

donselec said:


> with all due respect...if you did that at my house you wouldnt get paid ...thats just a tripping hazard if you have to work on meter or switch... and that carflex
> looks like chit.....:whistling2:


I'm not a huge fan of Manning a dirt wrench ( shovel ) , but this is an instance that screams for underground entry ! In the end , it looks cleaner , there are no tripping hazards , and you're not going back to fix the broken PVC that has been stepped on . I don't get it ?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

What are you guys charging for those 20 kw set ups
Why not pour concrete it cost a few hundred bucks
Why not trench it and put everything in the ground


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't give them a choice. Underground no matter what. Concrete poured pad or premade one.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

electricalwiz said:


> What are you guys charging for those 20 kw set ups
> Why not pour concrete it cost a few hundred bucks
> Why not trench it and put everything in the ground


I was thinking that too . Someone isn't selling the job right if you can't convince the homeowner that this vibrating , electric making engine should be sitting on a concrete slab and the gas and electrical rough ins should be concealed underground . I know this wouldn't fly for a lot of people I do work for . Some people don't mind paying for a professional looking installation .


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Even with them underground there is still stuff hanging off the side. The gas often being the worst. Trying to explain to some of the gas guys the flexible line needs to be straight and not twisted into a pretzel falls on deaf ears.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> I don't give them a choice. Underground no matter what. Concrete poured pad or premade one.





drumnut08 said:


> I was thinking that too . Someone isn't selling the job right if you can't convince the homeowner that this vibrating , electric making engine should be sitting on a concrete slab and the gas and electrical rough ins should be concealed underground . I know this wouldn't fly for a lot of people I do work for . Some people don't mind paying for a professional looking installation .


Interesting, do you guys also always go underground with HVAC condensers?

Do you make the plumber run the gas line underground?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No on the condensers, but I have to install the generators five feet out regardless of the instructions. Yes I make the gas guys go underground.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Interesting, do you guys also always go underground with HVAC condensers?
> 
> Do you make the plumber run the gas line underground?


Now , that's just silly , lol ! Apples and oranges . An AC condenser has no provisions for underground rough in and are always close enough to the structure they're serving for this never to be considered a walkway . The gen sets can't be as close to a building as a condenser , hence , how hard would it be to trench the few feet you need to come into the bottom of the thing ? It's a matter of preference and what's legal really , or at least what the AHJ deems as legal , lol ?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

drumnut08 said:


> Now , that's just silly , lol ! Apples and oranges . An AC condenser has no provisions for underground rough in and are always close enough to the structure they're serving for this never to be considered a walkway . The gen sets can't be as close to a building as a condenser , hence , how hard would it be to trench the few feet you need to come into the bottom of the thing ? It's a matter of preference and what's legal really , or at least what the AHJ deems as legal , lol ?


Exactly


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> Now , that's just silly , lol ! Apples and oranges . An AC condenser has no provisions for underground rough in and are always close enough to the structure they're serving for this never to be considered a walkway . The gen sets can't be as close to a building as a condenser , hence , how hard would it be to trench the few feet you need to come into the bottom of the thing ? It's a matter of preference and what's legal really , or at least what the AHJ deems as legal , lol ?


Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but MOST if not all of these gen sets don't have provisions for underground entry. However I will say that while I am a supporter of running it all above ground, what mag did would not fly with me.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> Now , that's just silly , lol ! Apples and oranges . An AC condenser has no provisions for underground rough in and are always close enough to the structure they're serving for this never to be considered a walkway . The gen sets can't be as close to a building as a condenser , hence , how hard would it be to trench the few feet you need to come into the bottom of the thing ? It's a matter of preference and what's legal really , or at least what the AHJ deems as legal , lol ?


I see it as apples and apples.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No question the connections are similar, even some of the GE/Briggs units look very much like a condenser. Its more about the location or distance from the house. I see a lot of installs like his, just choose not to do it that way. Like I said they aren't that clean with all the exterior plumbing emerging from the ground. Laying on the ground passing through some shrubbery might look a bit better. Not going to burst into flames though.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Its tough to lay down set rules for all your gens. Ive done some underground but not always . It depends on the homeowner, price, and town.
I used to sub out the concrete pad but now i just do it . Its easier when you have a few extra hands. I bolt them down too. Not that someone is gonna steal it. 
In this install i ran all the pipes under the deck. A little bit of a pain in the ass but it looks cleaner.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> No question the connections are similar, even some of the GE/Briggs units look very much like a condenser. Its more about the location or distance from the house. I see a lot of installs like his, just choose not to do it that way. Like I said they aren't that clean with all the exterior plumbing emerging from the ground. Laying on the ground passing through some shrubbery might look a bit better. Not going to burst into flames though.


Going underground in some parts of nj can be tough. In many cases you cant use black pipe. They have to use some pvc coated gas line. More money.....

I ment cant use...


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yes, it is.


So having the unit raised off the ground makes no sense to you.. :no:

It does (3) things for me.......

1) It makes it almost impossible for the landscapers to hit the unit with their mowers..

2) Changing the oil is much easier because of the added height difference..

3) Moving the generator from the cart to the platform is much easier since there is only about a 4" height difference..

I forgot... you think the CCA is a fire hazard since it is wood....:no:

I guess you don't put gas grill on wooden decks in Massachusetts.. :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Going underground in some parts of nj can be tough. In many cases you can use black pipe. They have to use some pvc coated gas line. More money.....


Here they use a heavy plastic line with a metal riser where it connects to the generator...

Nobody runs RMC for gas lines anymore.. :no:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So having the unit raised off the ground makes no sense to you.. :no:
> 
> It does (3) things for me.......
> 
> ...


It makes great sense to raise it off the ground, using wood to do so is hack. Use a pre made pad or pour cement.

Remeber you asked for opinions and now you are getting them.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Here they use a heavy plastic line with a metal riser where it connects to the generator...
> 
> Nobody runs RMC for gas lines anymore.. :no:


No one should use RMC for gas lines. :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It makes great sense to raise it off the ground, using wood to do so is hack. Use a pre made pad or pour cement.
> 
> Remeber you asked for opinions and now you are getting them.


That CCA is not going to burn.. there is nothing there to ignite.. :blink::blink:

How is having a BBQ on a deck any different and you have an open flame with dripping grease...


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> That CCA is not going to burn.. there is nothing there to ignite.. :blink::blink:
> 
> How is having a BBQ on a deck any different and you have an open flame with dripping grease...


B, we just disagree here.

It sounds like you just toss a couple of 4 x 6s down and screw the genset to them. IMPO that is really not a base and provides very little stability.

I know I am not going to change your ways, but at the same time I am not going to say 'Wow, great job'.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> B, we just disagree here.
> 
> It sounds like you just toss a couple of 4 x 6s down and screw the genset to them. IMPO that is really not a base and provides very little stability.
> 
> I know I am not going to change your ways, but at the same time I am not going to say 'Wow, great job'.


I use 10" spikes to put the platform together... it will never come apart..

You can see the spikes in the pic.. the base becomes rock solid the first time the generator starts to run..

But thanks for your concern..


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> 99% of smokers are slobs when it comes to getting rid of the butts.. out the car window is the most common method...
> 
> They don't want to use that device called an ashtray because it stinks up their car.. :no::no:


I know of someone who aims at open convertible BMWs when flicking a cigarette in traffic. But when one hates the place he lives in , everything gets tossed out the window.:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I use 10" spikes to put the platform together... it will never come apart..
> 
> You can see the spikes in the pic.. the base becomes rock solid the first time the generator starts to run..
> 
> But thanks for your concern..


I have yet another one going in in the flood zone. Here we have the mason pour a slab and then build it up about 30" with cinderblocks and then lay a top slab so the genny stays elevated. I stub my conduits thru the slabwork in the right rear corner and then holesaw two holes thru the bottom and have them enter inside the genny.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I have yet another one going in in the flood zone. Here we have the mason pour a slab and then build it up about 30" with cinderblocks and then lay a top slab so the genny stays elevated. I stub my conduits thru the slabwork in the right rear corner and then holesaw two holes thru the bottom and have them enter inside the genny.


I would just as easily run the conduit up the back of the unit.. running conduits through slabs and then getting the generator to sit right is wayyyyy more work than I want to do..:no::no:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I use 10" spikes to put the platform together... it will never come apart..
> 
> You can see the spikes in the pic.. the base becomes rock solid the first time the generator starts to run..
> 
> But thanks for your concern..


I have no concerns, I would not have even said anything except YOU posted a picture and YOU asked us what we thought about it. I told you what I thought about it. Don't ask questions if you don't want answers.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I have no concerns, I would not have even said anything except YOU posted a picture and YOU asked us what we thought about it. I told you what I thought about it. Don't ask questions if you don't want answers.


Yeah.. well... sometimes your posts and opinions are off the wall.... wayyyy in the deep end of the pool...

I am just responding to your "views".. how ever far from reality they may be ..


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Yeah.. well... sometimes your posts and opinions are off the wall.... wayyyy in the deep end of the pool...
> 
> I am just responding to your "views".. how ever far from reality they may be ..


:laughing::laughing:

From the man that thinks burying boxes and renting a u-haul to go have a fight are normal things to do. :laughing:

You can stamp your feet all day long but that picture you posted was hack. :thumbsup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> From the man that thinks burying boxes and renting a u-haul to go have a fight are normal things to do. :laughing:
> 
> You can stamp your feet all day long but that picture you posted was hack. :thumbsup:


I don't bury boxes... I have posted enough pics of VISIBLE covers for you to see the truth..

The UHAUL was not to go have a fight.. it was to go see what a loud mouth from NJ had to back up his big mouth... 

Call it a fact finding trip and I have no regrets.... :thumbsup:

But you continue to be biased by your hatred of anyone from NY.. :laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

All your generators are hack.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> I would just as easily run the conduit up the back of the unit.. running conduits through slabs and then getting the generator to sit right is wayyyyy more work than I want to do..:no::no:


Ity goes pretty easy for me. I cut the conduits 4" above the slab, let the genny overhang the slab , drill holes and then lift genny over and drop. Of course it's a two man procedure.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Ity goes pretty easy for me. I cut the conduits 4" above the slab, let the genny overhang the slab , drill holes and then lift genny over and drop. Of course it's a two man procedure.


Two men..you must have the Hulk working with you...

The generator weights 500lbs... so each man is lifting 250 pounds up 36" off the ground...

Sorry Doc... I don't see that happening.. :no::no::no::no:


----------



## FlatRateGator (Feb 13, 2013)

I did a 20 kW Kohler a few months ago and ripped my back moving it around. I was laid up for a week, I couldn't sneeze without that awesome blinding pain:laughing:

Last week, I did one, but O'Reilly Auto Parts was kind enough to rent me an engine hoist:laughing: If I do many more, I think I'll buy me one:thumbsup:


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The carts make life much easier on the back.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I manuver my gen with a big steel cart. Like the ones at home depot. We rarely dead lift it. One end at a time.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> Two men..you must have the Hulk working with you...
> 
> The generator weights 500lbs... so each man is lifting 250 pounds up 36" off the ground...
> 
> Sorry Doc... I don't see that happening.. :no::no::no::no:


Who's lifting the entire genny ? after shoving up on the platform with whatever extra hands we can find it's just a matter of lifting one side . I can lift 250 lbs, my wife on the other hand, maybe 50 lbs.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

B4T said:


> Two men..you must have the Hulk working with you...
> 
> The generator weights 500lbs... so each man is lifting 250 pounds up 36" off the ground...
> 
> Sorry Doc... I don't see that happening.. :no::no::no::no:


Lets be honest.

When was the last time you did a generator?

Down here flood level is pretty high, most are v zone 11-14 ft so the generator is 9-12 ft off the ground.

IMO here a generator like these are completely worthless. The gas was out much much longer then the power.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

So what do you do or how do you do it?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Lets be honest.
> 
> When was the last time you did a generator?
> 
> ...


I did one last week and have another coming up.. but not in a flood plain..


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> So what do you do or how do you do it?


I haven't done any since the storm. There is no time for jobs like that.

I have done some portable generator panels but the whole house natural gas generators are completely useless in a hurricane area.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I didn't give much thought to the natural gas supply being lost. I do many more portables than standbys and the standbys are mostly propane.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> I didn't give much thought to the natural gas supply being lost. I do many more portables than standbys and the standbys are mostly propane.


I didn't either until it happened here. The gas lines got flooded and shut off. It was a couple of months until gas was restored, but you still had to wait for your meter to be replaced and then have a plumber certify and reconnect the load side.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I didn't either until it happened here. The gas lines got flooded and shut off. It was a couple of months until gas was restored, but you still had to wait for your meter to be replaced and then have a plumber certify and reconnect the load side.


I remember when water got into the gas lines and then kept freezing up house by house... it was a real mess when water pipes started to burst..


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What a mess.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electricalwiz said:


> what are you guys charging for those 20 kw set ups
> why not pour concrete it cost a few hundred bucks
> why not trench it and put everything in the ground


$22,000


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> I haven't done any since the storm. There is no time for jobs like that.
> 
> I have done some portable generator panels but the whole house natural gas generators are completely useless in a hurricane area.


Whether is usless or not if the customer wants it ill gladly install it. I make a nice profit on gens.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

captkirk said:


> Whether is usless or not if the customer wants it ill gladly install it. I make a nice profit on gens.


But the reality of it,back to what shock doc was saying about flood level and platforms. Is in the flood area, no one has money for them when the insurance will not even cover the cost to fix or replace their home. Generators aren't covered by flood insurance.

If you do want a generator it has to be above flood, so it's on a platform about 8 ft off the ground.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> But the reality of it,back to what shock doc was saying about flood level and platforms. Is in the flood area, no one has money for them when the insurance will not even cover the cost to fix or replace their home. Generators aren't covered by flood insurance.
> 
> If you do want a generator it has to be above flood, so it's on a platform about 8 ft off the ground.


I didnt know that....i also didnt realized that the gas lines got messed up. I mean if you look at what happened in south jersey, generator or no generator you need to leave the area at that point.


----------



## CooperElec (May 6, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> Here's the one in question. Pretty simple when gas and elec are right there.


I don't want to jump on the pile, but how could you possibly say that you have the required clearance in front of that ATS (which is also the main service disconnect)? 

As for the pipes being above ground, that is for the customer to decide, price it both ways.


----------



## CooperElec (May 6, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> $22,000


Yeah, I don't think so.


----------



## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Here is a transfer switch I'm installing today. These things weight a ton. And that's without the CTs in it.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

A little behind Generac on the controls


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Theriot said:


> Here is a transfer switch I'm installing today. These things weight a ton. And that's without the CTs in it.


That's a GE right?


----------



## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> That's a GE right?


A Kohler. No generator yet. Just transfer switch for now. Need to put up the switch,panel, and meter to get the trench dug.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Eaton does their switches? Working on getting set up to work on the Cutler Hammer aircooled, which while mostly Generac, they have different switches than the Generac ones.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Theriot said:


> A Kohler. No generator yet. Just transfer switch for now. Need to put up the switch,panel, and meter to get the trench dug.


What size ATS is that.. I haven't seen dip switch's since I installed a Sears garage door opener (15) years ago.. :laughing:


----------



## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

B4T said:


> What size ATS is that.. I haven't seen dip switch's since I installed a Sears garage door opener (15) years ago.. :laughing:


200 amps. Their are some even in the generator. Not to mention CT you have to install.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Those ct's for load shed?


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Theriot said:


> A Kohler. No generator yet. Just transfer switch for now. Need to put up the switch,panel, and meter to get the trench dug.


Same exact switch that the GE's use. I like them alot better than genercrap. The load shedding is all wireless modules unlike generac where you have to run your low voltage lines to the switch.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

B4T said:


> What size ATS is that.. I haven't seen dip switch's since I installed a Sears garage door opener (15) years ago.. :laughing:


The dip switches are to set what size generator is getting attached to the switch.


----------



## Jerome208 (May 10, 2013)

What is the model or name of that switch? I was not aware Kohler made one like that.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Jerome208 said:


> What is the model or name of that switch? I was not aware Kohler made one like that.


It's not made by Kohler, its made by eaton and used by Kohler and GE. For the GE models its called the Symphony II not sure what Kohler calls theirs.


----------



## Jerome208 (May 10, 2013)

OK, then it is the same one I had seen before. Thanks.


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

You know if you was also a plumber you could do the gas too and make more money


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

JmanAllen said:


> You know if you was also a plumber you could do the gas too and make more money


We can in jersey. Stupid ass state, all you need is a home improvement contractors license to install gas pipe.


----------



## JammedUp (May 12, 2013)

JmanAllen said:


> You know if you was also a plumber you could do the gas too and make more money


I do it anyway. Never had an inspector question it. If I can keep the electricity from leaking out, I can keep the gas in to.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I would love to do my own gas work. Many times its pretty easy... i have all the tools for it. Love to keep that 900-1500 in my pocket.


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## highleg (May 11, 2013)

captkirk said:


> I would love to do my own gas work. Many times its pretty easy... i have all the tools for it. Love to keep that 900-1500 in my pocket.


Then why don't you do it? As someone mentioned, you don't need a plumber's license to run gas pipe in NJ.

$900-1,500 sounds like a lot. On the two I did recently the plumber charged $450 and $600.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

highleg said:


> Then why don't you do it? As someone mentioned, you don't need a plumber's license to run gas pipe in NJ.
> 
> $900-1,500 sounds like a lot. On the two I did recently the plumber charged $450 and $600.


He must not have known about flat rate pricing........


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

highleg said:


> Then why don't you do it? As someone mentioned, you don't need a plumber's license to run gas pipe in NJ.
> 
> $900-1,500 sounds like a lot. On the two I did recently the plumber charged $450 and $600.


I tried out a plumber was really cheap it didn't work out too well those prices are pretty much what most guys charge


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Here's one we did today ....


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Here's the inside


----------



## Giorgio.g (Mar 31, 2013)

captkirk said:


> Here's the inside


Its crazy how close to those panels you have that drain pipe with cleanouts


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Giorgio.g said:


> Its crazy how close to those panels you have that drain pipe with cleanouts


I know....poor plumber has to be carefull...


----------



## Skblay (May 15, 2013)

Haven't seen a generator on here I would sign off on yet


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Skblay said:


> Haven't seen a generator on here I would sign off on yet


Lol.......


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Skblay said:


> Haven't seen a generator on here I would sign off on yet


Nice first post....gee i wonder who it is....hahahaha


----------



## Skblay (May 15, 2013)

captkirk said:


> Nice first post....gee i wonder who it is....hahahaha


Are you implying that you know who I am? Im not getting your sense of humor here


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Skblay said:


> Haven't seen a generator on here I would sign off on yet


So what is problem with above install?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Looks like a 100% complete hack job to me.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I would love to do my own gas work. Many times its pretty easy... i have all the tools for it. Love to keep that 900-1500 in my pocket.


$900-$1500 is what I've been getting too. But these guys got it fn made. We're the ones coordinating the whole damn project and the bastids are there for 2 hours one day and less than that on start up day. If they fail inspection and I have to come back for start up on another day I phucken lose out on a days labor (because I could be somewhere else making massive amounts of profit). Is this close to about your story too?


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> $900-$1500 is what I've been getting too. But these guys got it fn made. We're the ones coordinating the whole damn project and the bastids are there for 2 hours one day and less than that on start up day. If they fail inspection and I have to come back for start up on another day I phucken lose out on a days labor (because I could be somewhere else making massive amounts of profit). Is this close to about your story too?


I got a good plumber. He puts a tee with a pressure guage on the bottom and just before the gen conection he puts a shut off valve. So i get my inspection and i can take out the pressure gauge myself and install a plug. 
I get a pretty good price from him because he doesnt have to go back...and he does nice work and usually oversizes the pipe...


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Here are couple of other ones....


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I like the concrete pads.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> Here's the one in question. Pretty simple when gas and elec are right there.


I didn't think that the low voltage and medium voltage wires were allowed in the same conduit with that generator.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> I didn't think that the low voltage and medium voltage wires were allowed in the same conduit with that generator.


GENERAC allows power and control circuits in same conduit...


----------



## BababooeyHTJ (May 31, 2013)

I didn't think so. I don't have access to a nexus air cooled install manual at the moment. I did find a liquid cooled manual which iirc uses the same nexus control system and it specifically mentions running the power and control wiring in separate conduit. It also seems to elude to it in the nexus smart switch technical manual. I would need to take a look at the installation manual to be sure. 

I know that you're allowed to with the pre-wired whip but I didn't think that you could with field installed wiring.

I could be wrong but would love to know for sure.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> I didn't think so. I don't have access to a nexus air cooled install manual at the moment. I did find a liquid cooled manual which iirc uses the same nexus control system and it specifically mentions running the power and control wiring in separate conduit. It also seems to elude to it in the nexus smart switch technical manual. I would need to take a look at the installation manual to be sure.
> 
> I know that you're allowed to with the pre-wired whip but I didn't think that you could with field installed wiring.
> 
> I could be wrong but would love to know for sure.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


>


Cool I like that..:thumbsup:


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Finished today


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Finished today


You pour that pad ? How long for the complete install ? Mine took a good 3 days, and then some for planning estimates etc


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

dronai said:


> You pour that pad ? How long for the complete install ? Mine took a good 3 days, and then some for planning estimates etc


Yes. I do. With inspection, permits and pad it takes about four days. I bought a mixer and its really easy to do myself.


----------



## patmurphey (May 28, 2013)

Kohler installation manual, see page 15:

http://www.firemountainsolar.com/wp-content/themes/fms/pdf/Kohler-14-20-RES-Installation.pdf

5 feet from combustible material???


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

patmurphey said:


> Kohler installation manual, see page 15:
> 
> http://www.firemountainsolar.com/wp-content/themes/fms/pdf/Kohler-14-20-RES-Installation.pdf
> 
> 5 feet from combustible material???


Its ok..dude it passed. They just want it away from the house and windows. If you read the notes in Kohler the first thing they say is is subject to local town codes..


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

patmurphey said:


> Kohler installation manual, see page 15:
> 
> http://www.firemountainsolar.com/wp-content/themes/fms/pdf/Kohler-14-20-RES-Installation.pdf
> 
> 5 feet from combustible material???


It's a fireproof deck , what's the problem , lol ? I'd rather see that than have it right against a house like I've seen some . It has plenty of air circulation around it , so I see no issue .


----------



## patmurphey (May 28, 2013)

drumnut08 said:


> It's a fireproof deck , what's the problem , lol ? I'd rather see that than have it right against a house like I've seen some . It has plenty of air circulation around it , so I see no issue .


Fireproof deck, no problem, but yours is not the only one in the thread. It's a fire code issue and should not be subject to "reduction" in local zoning codes. Some Generator manufacturers have their metal enclosures fire rated to permit 18", but still subject to any greater distance required by local codes.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

patmurphey said:


> Fireproof deck, no problem, but yours is not the only one in the thread. It's a fire code issue and should not be subject to "reduction" in local zoning codes. Some Generator manufacturers have their metal enclosures fire rated to permit 18", but still subject to any greater distance required by local codes.


It's not where I would have put it either , but obviously an Inspector passed it . I'm not disagreeing with you , but I do think it will be fine for years to come . I'm more concerned with the accessibility to the side facing the deck ! New Jersey has two types of inspectors . The ones who miss everything ( by design or they just don't know ) and the ones who have slept with the NEC from birth . I'm guessing tho a inspector was the first one , lol ?


----------



## patmurphey (May 28, 2013)

It's not NEC, but it's worth talking about, but maybe not here, because a number of electricians are installing generators. Zoning (including fire codes) and plumbing issues are not necessarily within the electrician's or electrical inspector's knowledge base. My generator required three permits and inspections - electric, plumbing and zoning.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

patmurphey said:


> It's not NEC, but it's worth talking about, but maybe not here, because a number of electricians are installing generators. Zoning (including fire codes) and plumbing issues are not necessarily within the electrician's or electrical inspector's knowledge base. My generator required three permits and inspections - electric, plumbing and zoning.


:notworthy::notworthy:

We are not worthy. Set us straight.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I was guessing "engineer." Turns out it was "flight engineer" which is close enough. :laughing:


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Yes. I do. With inspection, permits and pad it takes about four days. I bought a mixer and its really easy to do myself.


I can see maybe 2 days if you do a lot, and with a factory pad, and everything goes well. But unless you have a few guys all working on it, it took a little longer than I thought. I still have to go back when the plumber hooks up the gas, and for inspection, then start up. 

How does Flyboy do it in a 1/2 day ?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Yes. I do. With inspection, permits and pad it takes about four days. I bought a mixer and its really easy to do myself.


The concrete pad is nice... but IMO it is overkill for a air cooled unit...

You are adding more cost to a job that might be lost if it went out to bid and the next guy just followed generator instructions (GENERAC) and used a pea gravel base...

But if you can sell the job as is and make money... that is the ultimate goal for anyone.. :thumbsup:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I was guessing "engineer." Turns out it was "flight engineer" which is close enough. :laughing:




I had not even looked, that is funny. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> The concrete pad is nice... but IMO it is overkill for a air cooled unit...


What does the cooling method have to do with providing a firm, stable and long lasting base. 

Don't even try to say the wood you put down is just as good.



I do agree it does add some cost but the Captain has an employee and a very nice truck, I am pretty sure he knows how to cover his costs and still sell the job


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What does the cooling method have to do with providing a firm, stable and long lasting base.
> 
> Don't even try to say the wood you put down is just as good.
> 
> ...


Air cooled units are 500 pounds and don't require a concrete base...

Liquid cooled units start at 1000 pounds and require a concrete base...

Sorry to break it to you.. but the 4X6 CCA base I supply is just at good for the product it supports....

It takes me one hour to make up the base... much faster than concrete and more cost effective...

What does a nice truck and an employee have to do with making a profit on a job...:blink::blink::blink::blink:

He could easily of lost money if you divide the man hours into the profit made..


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The local codes dont allow me to install it along the side of the house because of the noise set back ordinance on that street. He was ok with where i put it . The lady would have probably not done it if she had to put it out in the yard. 
I do the concrete because i charge for it and make money on it. I have a really good young guy and i find it better to keep the work instead of giving it away. Trying to find a guy to do a pad n my time is a bigger pain in the ass than doing it myself. When i was alone it was a monumental pain in the ass to do it myself. But i like the extra money i make on it now. Im trying to get a plumber to let me do the gas work...


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

dronai said:


> I can see maybe 2 days if you do a lot, and with a factory pad, and everything goes well. But unless you have a few guys all working on it, it took a little longer than I thought. I still have to go back when the plumber hooks up the gas, and for inspection, then start up.
> 
> How does Flyboy do it in a 1/2 day ?


I could probably get them done in three days total with three guys. Two working and a day for permits and inspection. But who has that luxury...


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

captkirk said:


> Im trying to get a plumber to let me do the gas work...


Your allowed to do the gas work yourself in NJ with your license. Confirm for yourself of course.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> Your allowed to do the gas work yourself in NJ with your license. Confirm for yourself of course.


 I dont see why not, we work with pretty much the same pipe... Is it a homeowners permit your talking about..?


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

dronai said:


> I can see maybe 2 days if you do a lot, and with a factory pad, and everything goes well. But unless you have a few guys all working on it, it took a little longer than I thought. I still have to go back when the plumber hooks up the gas, and for inspection, then start up.
> 
> How does Flyboy do it in a 1/2 day ?


 But im talking about everything...Im just a small shop. I work too.... everyday pretty much..... four days includes getting permit, estimate, inspeciton... A lot of guys that are workers dont see that part..


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

captkirk said:


> *I dont see why not*, w*e work with pretty much the same pipe*... Is it a homeowners permit your talking about..?


 ...really? Its a totally different trade


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> I haven't done any since the storm. There is no time for jobs like that.
> 
> I have done some portable generator panels but the whole house natural gas generators are completely useless in a hurricane area.


I've been encouraging LP since Sandy because of the stories about the gas service going out for months.



captkirk said:


> I dont see why not, we work with pretty much the same pipe... Is it a homeowners permit your talking about..?


No, its considered part of an electrical installation. Just apply for a permit for a gas line. Same inspections etc. No you don't need the HIC license.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> I've been encouraging LP since Sandy because of the stories about the gas service going out for months.
> 
> 
> 
> No, its considered part of an electrical installation. Just apply for a permit for a gas line. Same inspections etc. No you don't need the HIC license.


 Ill give it a shot next time which is pretty soon.... some towns require a line diagram stamped by plumber so i will see what they say..


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

captkirk said:


> Ill give it a shot next time which is pretty soon.... some towns require a line diagram stamped by plumber so i will see what they say..


Yep, and they are right to require it but you can seal it yourself. Of course I can only speak for residential installations. I haven't touched a commercial generator since I've been working for myself.


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> Yep, and they are right to require it but you can seal it yourself. Of course I can only speak for residential installations. I haven't touched a commercial generator since I've been working for myself.



HUH?

Gas piping is part of the mechanical code.

You might have to do a riser diagram, but you don't need to be a plumber. You need a Home Improvement Contractor''s Registration.

Doesn't matter what the inspector or tech assistant says, the state says I'm right on this.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

heel600 said:


> You need a Home Improvement Contractor''s Registration.


No you don't.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Cool .... im gonna look into it..i see it as found money...id rather do concrete and black pipe work and make revenue than cross my fingers and hope someone calls by sunday night..


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Here is another one....a little different.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> No, its considered part of an electrical installation. Just apply for a permit for a gas line. Same inspections etc. No you don't need the HIC license.


That is the dumbest policy I have heard of in a long time.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> 1000 pounds and require a concrete base...
> 
> Sorry to break it to you.. but the 4X6 CCA base I supply is just at good for the product it supports....
> 
> .


No it is not, it looks like a trunk slamming hack did the work.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Tony, I have a few suggestions. 










To get the air pockets out of the cement you need to vibrate it, an easy way to do that is to take the blade out of a sawzal, put the foot of it against the form and run it. Move the foot all around the form. This will prevent most of the air pockets you have on the sides.








Next one, get your self a a street broom and give the concrete a 'broom finish'









It is faster and easier than trying to make a great looking 'trowel perfect' finish.

In the picture above they are using one specifically for the job but just dragging a push broom across the almost set concrete works fine.










Also one of these edgers ...










... easily found at HD or Lowes makes a nice professional edge quickly.










Here is a pad I had to do inside. Broom finish first and then edged. (Sorry B4T, not a place for wood.)









One final suggestion is to place a layer of mesh in it, not expensive and you can get it at HD.


----------



## Philly Master (May 26, 2013)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> I didn't think so. I don't have access to a nexus air cooled install manual at the moment. I did find a liquid cooled manual which iirc uses the same nexus control system and it specifically mentions running the power and control wiring in separate conduit. It also seems to elude to it in the nexus smart switch technical manual. I would need to take a look at the installation manual to be sure.
> 
> I know that you're allowed to with the pre-wired whip but I didn't think that you could with field installed wiring.
> 
> I could be wrong but would love to know for sure.


 It has to do with the NEC not generac ... if you sue the same kinda wire you can run both in the same conduit ... we use the thhn/thwn for the control wires also so everything is the same ( insulation wise, voltage rating )


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Bob i was whacking the boards all around to try to get the air pockets out. I need to try what you said. I think milwakee makes a cordless vibrating tool for that. 
You cant tell from the pictures but the top is swept and hit with that edging tool.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Bob i was whacking the boards all around to try to get the air pockets out. I need to try what you said. I think milwakee makes a cordless vibrating tool for that. And i remember something about not vibrating it too much so all the gravel doesnt fall to the bottom.
You cant tell from the pictures but the top is swept and hit with that edging tool.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

captkirk said:


> Bob i was whacking the boards all around to try to get the air pockets out. I need to try what you said. I think milwakee makes a cordless vibrating tool for that. And i remember something about not vibrating it too much so all the gravel doesnt fall to the bottom.
> You cant tell from the pictures but the top is swept and hit with that edging tool.


That helps , but any vibrating tool helps bring the cream of the concrete to the edges of the form which helps eliminate the honeycomb effect . Palm sanders work nice for this too .


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

drumnut08 said:


> That helps , but any vibrating tool helps bring the cream of the concrete to the edges of the form which helps eliminate the honeycomb effect . Palm sanders work nice for this too .


Ill try it on the next one ..


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


>


 You're ruining your Nikes.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Tony, I have a few suggestions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I just realized it...i didnt do that one... that one was farmed out. I wasnt happy with that guy. The two others he did for me were horrible. to much sand or something and i had to get on my knees to get him to do them in a timely manner.. 
Im gonna try the sawzaul thing too... possibly get the vibrator.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

captkirk said:


> I had to get on my knees to get him.
> Im gonna try the vibrator.


lol

Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> Your allowed to do the gas work yourself in NJ with your license. Confirm for yourself of course.


Not true. You need an HIC license or plumbers license. You need to submit a plumbing permit for the job.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Goldagain said:


> I've been encouraging LP since Sandy because of the stories about the gas service going out for months.
> 
> No, its considered part of an electrical installation. Just apply for a permit for a gas line. Same inspections etc. No you don't need the HIC license.


Have you personally tried to do this. Your way off base here. So I can plumb in a dishwasher because its related to my trade, or anything that takes electric for that matter.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

BBQ said:


> That is the dumbest policy I have heard of in a long time.


Dumb yes. Because its not true.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Dumb yes. Because its not true.


I dont know guys, ive done a good amount of them since sandy and every town seems to have its own little amendments. Its important to read all the material they give you. I wouldnt be surprised if some towns dont care. But im not holding my breath..


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Not true. You need an HIC license or plumbers license. You need to submit a plumbing permit for the job.


Oh ok. 



ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Have you personally tried to do this.


Yes.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No it is not, it looks like a trunk slamming hack did the work.


Your opinion.. like you.. both suck.. :thumbsup:

I have yet to hear anyone say something bad about a wood base when I sell a job..

Part of my sales pitch is a picture of it and nobody has ever said they didn't like it... 

So some Internet blowhard like you comes along and says it looks like a trunk slammer did the job.. GOLLY GEE BATMAN!!!!

As I said before... if Tony can make money off selling a concrete base... that is the ultimate goal....

BUT... in a competitive world it adds unnecessary cost onto a job that might be lost because of it....

With labor and materials... that has to be a $500.00 item...


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

B4T said:


> Your opinion.. like you.. both suck.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I have yet to hear anyone say something bad about a wood base when I sell a job..
> 
> ...


This should be getting good now ! I just got my popcorn and soda awaiting BBQ's response , lol !


----------



## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

IMO this looks just as good, if not better, than a crumbling concrete slab


6" of tamped crush and run stone base and 6x6 treated timbers


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

oldschool said:


> IMO this looks just as good, if not better, than a crumbling concrete slab
> http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/larrybishop/media/DSCF0018.jpg.html
> http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/larrybishop/media/DSCF0022.jpg.html
> 6" of tamped crush and run stone base and 6x6 treated timbers


I
Exactly which is why i pour them now.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> Your opinion.. like you.. both suck.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I have yet to hear anyone say something bad about a wood base when I sell a job..
> 
> ...


 
I dunno man. I have to say that looks pretty hack. The concrete slab looks more professional to me.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

drspec said:


> I dunno man. I have to say that looks pretty hack. The concrete slab looks more professional to me.


Sure it does... concrete will always look better that wood...

But.... (2) things...

1) is concrete necessary for the job it was made for??

2) would you be willing to pay $500+ extra for a concrete base over wood if it wasn't needed??

My competition here is just dropping the generators right on the grass with NO base at all...


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I think every one of these so far look fine. Hell I've seen SER from the ATS right to the generator that was sitting on a pile of stone that looked fine to me. I think sometimes we over think things.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Here is another one....a little different.


U need to tap the forms more to get those air pockets out on tue concrete or buy a vibrator.

Sorry for dbl post!


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

You can buy a cheap vibrator for under $200


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> You can buy a cheap vibrator for under $200


Thas what she said... Lmao


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

denny3992 said:


> Thas what she said... Lmao


She never said that to me. :no:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Goldagain said:


> I think every one of these so far look fine....


 Who are you, and where is the real _Gold?_


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Big John said:


> Who are you, and where is the real _Gold?_


I only criticize people and their opinions not their work unless its really bad or constructive. I have no room to talk about work too many here that think there better then me and too many that actually are. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> *Your opinion.. like you.. both suck*.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I have yet to hear anyone say something bad about a wood base when I sell a job..
> 
> ...


I am so confused .... do I suck or do I blow .... come on B4T pick a direction. :jester:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

denny3992 said:


> U need to tap the forms more to get those air pockets out on tue concrete or buy a vibrator.
> 
> Sorry for dbl post!


I actually didnt do that one. I had a contractor/handyman do a few of them for me... It turned out to be a bigger hassle trying to get someone there for one pad here and there so i decided to take on the task. the guy that did those did three for me in the same day and it was pretty cold out when he did them. I also think he used to much sand or something because his mix didnt really come together well.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

6x6...to granite if they will pay I will lay it....I am selling what they are buyin!!!


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I am so confused .... do I suck or do I blow .... come on B4T pick a direction. :jester:


Rumor has it your ambidextrous.. :whistling2::laughing:


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Im doing a 80 kw and two 20s in the next few weeks and i will do the pads for that those too...ill be sure to post pics..


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

I prefer wood myself but i also build the base larger than the generator and fill it with stone. I had several complaints from customers of sound being transmitted through the ground into their homes with concrete bases, especially basements. The crushed stone absorbs the noise. The base is also quicker to build, install and cheaper in the long run. The PT base will last at least 30+yrs, you really think most of these generators will be around in 30+yrs?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't see a real issue with the wood and stone thing for a little home generator. 

Would you set a real generator for a store, treatment plant, data center on wood and stone, no, that wouldn't go over well but totally different situation.


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## Philly Master (May 26, 2013)

Has nobody used the GENPAD's ??? We used to do the Wood and stone .....


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I don't see a real issue with the wood and stone thing for a little home generator.
> 
> Would you set a real generator for a store, treatment plant, data center on wood and stone, no, that wouldn't go over well but totally different situation.


I dont know... i see lots of ac compressors that get all crokked from just being on a plastic base. 
I wouldnt be to happy about that if i spent a lot of money on it and it didnt look proffesional. As a matter of fact my ac is crokked and it was put in three years ago. Ill snap a pic later. 
Its just concret guys. And with the right tools its easy to do...its really not rocket science and i personally feel better about putting an expensive piece of equipment on a firm base that is at least 6 inches off the ground. I tried the gravel thing and found that it just looks like crap after a few months..and when the machine runs for a while it sort of sinks into the ground a little or settles much like my ac unit and many others i have seen.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I don't see a real issue with the wood and stone thing for a little home generator.
> 
> Would you set a real generator for a store, treatment plant, data center on wood and stone, no, that wouldn't go over well but totally different situation.


I dont know... i see lots of ac compressors that get all crokked from just being on a plastic base. 
I wouldnt be to happy about that if i spent a lot of money on it and it didnt look proffesional. As a matter of fact my ac is crokked and it was put in three years ago. Ill snap a pic later. 
Its just concret guys. And with the right tools its easy to do...its really not rocket science and i personally feel better about putting an expensive piece of equipment on a firm base that is at least 6 inches off the ground. I tried the gravel thing and found that it just looks like crap after a few months..and when the machine runs for a while it sort of sinks into the ground a little or settles much like my ac unit and many others i have seen.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I dont know... i see lots of ac compressors that get all crokked from just being on a plastic base.
> I wouldnt be to happy about that if i spent a lot of money on it and it didnt look proffesional. As a matter of fact my ac is crokked and it was put in three years ago. Ill snap a pic later.
> Its just concret guys. And with the right tools its easy to do...its really not rocket science and i personally feel better about putting an expensive piece of equipment on a firm base that is at least 6 inches off the ground. I tried the gravel thing and found that it just looks like crap after a few months..and when the machine runs for a while it sort of sinks into the ground a little or settles much like my ac unit and many others i have seen.


You're right; a small concrete slab is super easy. It's not like you have to do a professional finish on it. Hell, the only finish I know how to do is broom finish :laughing:


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I don't see a real issue with the wood and stone thing for a little home generator.
> 
> Would you set a real generator for a store, treatment plant, data center on wood and stone, no, that wouldn't go over well but totally different situation.


We do 5/4x6 PT frame filled with marble chips. Looks awesome, is pretty cheap, and is a lot easier than crete. We have all the tools for concrete work after building a dam, but with the air cooled gennys it is just too competitive a market to install it unless the customer really wants it. Honestly B4T, that genny sitting on the 4x6's looks like crap, but if you can sell it then more power to ya, I just wouldn't put my name on it.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> ...Honestly B4T, that genny sitting on the 4x6's looks like crap....


 I don't think most people would even notice if you dropped the generator right on the grass. I'd be a little concerned about how long the timbers would last if my name were on it, but otherwise it's much ado about nothing.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Here's the one in question. Pretty simple when gas and elec are right there.


It looks ok but I def would have went UG with feed for gas & electric.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

B4T said:


> Your opinion.. like you.. both suck.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I have yet to hear anyone say something bad about a wood base when I sell a job..
> 
> ...


The base is too small. Generac recommends the base be 6" larger then generator on all sides. 
Don't know if you have something to prove otherwise??


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

oldschool said:


> IMO this looks just as good, if not better, than a crumbling concrete slab
> http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/larrybishop/media/DSCF0018.jpg.html
> http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/larrybishop/media/DSCF0022.jpg.html
> 6" of tamped crush and run stone base and 6x6 treated timbers


How far is the generator from the house?? Roughly?


----------



## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

10 feet, maybe


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> Here's another look at it. If you can't work on the ats then you have issues or you might look for an alternate line of work.
> 
> Just my opinion.


What size was the gas meter?


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

27kw


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 27kw


Nice work dude


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I dont know... i see lots of ac compressors that get all crokked from just being on a plastic base.


We jackhammer and backhoe out lots of cracked and sinking concrete pads too so...


Biggest thing that would make these resi installs look good is if you could stub up inside the unit and avoid all the conduit and flex ugliness.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The base is too small. Generac recommends the base be 6" larger then generator on all sides.
> Don't know if you have something to prove otherwise??


Yeah kohler does too they recommend something similar but i like how it looks neat and tight. Plus its bolted to the concrete....
And fwiw if your making money who cares... 
Im posting my pics here beacuse thats what we do here right...? Show pics of our work so all you all can tell us how much better you would do it....lol


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> We jackhammer and backhoe out lots of cracked and sinking concrete pads too so...
> 
> Biggest thing that would make these resi installs look good is if youreal could stub up inside the unit and avoid all the conduit and flex ugliness.


If i did that i would be voiding the 5 year warrenty that comes with it. Its supossed tk be wored acording to the manufacureres specs.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok with a show of hands how many guys on this thread acually work for themselves and have to sell a customer on your product...?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

captkirk said:


> acording to the manufacureres specs.


I know, and its a mistake on their part. It's not that hard to make the thing a little bigger and give a place in a corner to bring the stubs into.


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

20kw complete install including LP gas line


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Here's the one I did last week. The base was built by a carpenter, also they are going to cover the wonderboard with stone to match.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

dronai said:


> Here's the one I did last week. The base was built by a carpenter, also they are going to caver the wonderboard with stone to match.


Wow that's nice good work dude


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I know, and its a mistake on their part. It's not that hard to make the thing a little bigger and give a place in a corner to bring the stubs into.


That would be my preferred too. I like to make my work look clean and tight


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 20kw complete install including LP gas line


A lot of towns around here are funny about using that yellow flex outside if they weren't I'd be doing all my generators underground


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

captkirk said:


> A lot of towns around here are funny about using that yellow flex outside if they weren't I'd be doing all my generators underground


I have to say that most towns in my county regarding natural gas or LP, we are allowed to use the plastic piping but must emerge with a 90° galvanized sweep.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> The base is too small. Generac recommends the base be 6" larger then generator on all sides.
> Don't know if you have something to prove otherwise??


Too small for what???

What is there to prove other than using pea gravel for a base that GENERAC says to use...


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

B4T said:


> Too small for what???
> 
> What is there to prove other than using pea gravel for a base that GENERAC says to use...


Tell 'em B, thats standard operating procedure on craigslist!


----------



## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

B4T said:


> Too small for what???
> 
> What is there to prove other than using pea gravel for a base that GENERAC says to use...


The base shall be 6" large then unit all around. 
Manufacture spec!! LMAO!!


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Have you guys ever used these transitions before?


----------



## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

Here is one we did with pavers


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## seabee41 (Dec 21, 2010)

16x16 pavers base and leveling sand less than 60 bucks


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

This is from gen pads site...

Q: Why would I want to use a pad under a Generac GS Series generator?
A: Currently the GS Series units come on a black plastic shipping pad that has a waffle bottom. This waffle bottomed pad has a tendency, over time, to settle such that the generator becomes unlevel. Once this occurs the customer's typically call and complaint which necessitates a return trip. The GenPad provides a solid base for the generator and reduces to eliminates the unit becoming unlevel.

Im not the only one that tries to avoid the sinking generator.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

oldschool said:


> IMO this looks just as good, if not better, than a crumbling concrete slab
> 
> 
> 6" of tamped crush and run stone base and 6x6 treated timbers


Old school, I saw the pictures before you moved them. That was an install, you dug up the dirt, you placed crushed stone in hole and packed it down, you also back-filled around some very large wood timbers. It looked good.

On the other hand as far as I can tell B4T drops some 4x4s or 6x6s on the ground, screws them together in a box and calls it 'an installation'.

To me that is hack, it will sink, it will rot and it looks like dung. 

But I guess he is good with that, I would not be.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> On the other hand as far as I can tell B4T drops some 4x4s or 6x6s on the ground, screws them together in a box and calls it 'an installation'.
> 
> To me that is hack, it will sink, it will rot and it looks like dung.
> 
> But I guess he is good with that, I would not be.


Old age is not being kind to you.. better get them glasses before you can't see the keyboard anymore.. :no::no:

Even Cletis can tell the 4X6 CCA ties are held together with galvanized RR spikes and not screws..

I almost feel sorry for you..


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The vibration on Generac's are minimal because the motors rest on vibration isolators. Personally I think the fake concrete pad guys will say anything to sell you their product. They're probably the same guys who sell above ground storable pools and say the electric will cost a couple hundred bucks. :no:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm still on the fence about the Gen Pad thing. A couple of 8 ft 2x4s will make a nice 3x5 form. I use some metal stakes to hold it level. Brush finish and one of those concrete tools to round off the edge. Made six like that and they look great.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I raise the generator up for (3) reasons...

1) it makes the delivery easier since I am doing it by myself... it is almost the same height as the cart when I slide it off onto the CCA base....

2) it makes doing the tune-up much easier.. a generator just sitting on the grass can't drain the oil out into a 5" deep pan....

3) having it raised up means the lawn molesters can't run into the sides with their machines and weed wackers...


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

"]Does anyone know what it costs to become a Kohler service dealer. Including taking the 5 day course as well as purchasing the required min inventory needed on hand???


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Tree fiddy!


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> "]Does anyone know what it costs to become a Kohler service dealer. Including taking the 5 day course as well as purchasing the required min inventory needed on hand???


Im about to become one myself....ill let ya know. I think the lady said you need to buy a min of three transfer switches...


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Been pairing up with other contractors that don't have the time or interest in the service end and picking up warranty and yearly service work.


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## newbi (Dec 17, 2011)

B4T said:


> 99% of smokers are slobs when it comes to getting rid of the butts.. out the car window is the most common method...
> 
> They don't want to use that device called an ashtray because it stinks up their car.. :no::no:


I am a smoker myself and I agree with you that most are slobs when it comes to getting rid of the butts. And then they wonder why we can't even smoke outside on a construction project.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

newbi said:


> I am a smoker myself and I agree with you that most are slobs when it comes to getting rid of the butts. And then they wonder why we can't even smoke outside on a construction project.


My wifes friend throws her butts outside my house when ever she comes over and it really ticks me off..i dont say anything because she helps out with the kids.. 
One of the plumbers i used on a gen job left and im not kidding, about thirty butts all around the area he was working. I had to say something to him on the next one which actually worked out, cause he only left about 5. 
Im not sure i was always good when i smoked


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

you dont need a disco seabee ?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I told you guys about the inspector I had that put out a butt on his shoe and then tossed it into my customers bushes. If I didn't have my final payment tied into the Final Approval I would have certainly said something.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Todays job...


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Nice


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Todays job...


It's against code to have it that close to that tree.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Elephante said:


> It's against code to have it that close to that tree.


Its further than it looks..


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Its further than it looks..


I'm joking.lol


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Mag, i guess it's my turn to jack your thread.

Poured the pad Friday last week and set this one today.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice job lining up the conduits!


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

3xdad said:


> Mag, i guess it's my turn to jack your thread.
> 
> Poured the pad Friday last week and set this one today.


Thats how we do it here start one thread and it geta hijacked..lol

Nice work...


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

This was installed in 99. Was the 5 foot clearance from window around at that time?


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I doubt this was ever inspected. Too close to the window, untreated gas pipe (rust), probably inadequate support of the flexible conduit too.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I doubt this was ever inspected. Too close to the window, untreated gas pipe (rust), probably inadequate support of the flexible conduit too.


Add that the flexible gas line should be straight... that job is a accident waiting to happen.. :no::no:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> I doubt this was ever inspected. Too close to the window, untreated gas pipe (rust), probably inadequate support of the flexible conduit too.


It was . Electrical , fire protection, and plumbing permits.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Add that the flexible gas line should be straight... that job is a accident waiting to happen.. :no::no:


So had the installer used a 90º fitting first would have been good?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

When I bought my house it came with a generator. Sorry the permit says 01. I guess it was put in around that time. I might just have a plumber just put new gas pipe for the generator and furnace. The thing runs great, but just has a problem starting when it's real cold, like below freezing. When this one dies I am going to have to find a spot for my new generator. I hope I get another 12 years out of it.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

A ninety into a proper flexible fitting would probably solve that. You could add a block heater and battery blanket to help with the cold start. Moving it further away from the house wouldn't be that big of a deal either. Go underground.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Mag, i guess it's my turn to jack your thread.
> 
> Poured the pad Friday last week and set this one today.


Nice. Is that for that well house?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> A ninety into a proper flexible fitting would probably solve that. You could add a block heater and battery blanket to help with the cold start. Moving it further away from the house wouldn't be that big of a deal either. Go underground.


I'm going to do everything but move it to the middle of my lawn.lol definitely going to look into a block heater.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think the heaters go around the oil filter so no more peel and stick. Ties into n1,n2, shouldn't be a big deal. I wouldn't move it far, just enough to meet the minimums, either that or some CO detectors. The gas thing shouldn't be a biggie either, parts or labor. I guess I'd be more concerned about the gas connection. In reality, the minimum distances off the house isn't a bad thing. People build stuff around them and wonder why they have troubles, the further away the better. Not saying you'll have trouble, but have seen some that should have been located better.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Nice. Is that for that well house?


Yeah. When i finish up, i'll post update pics on that thread. You subscribed?:thumbsup:


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

I'm noticing a lot of generator installations without outside disconnects. No one is having a problem with that?

Also, what about the labeling that you are supposed to put by the meter or whatever saying there is a generator on site? I forget the article but from I read you need that even with an interlock or transfer panel connection. Anyone heard anything about that?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> So had the installer used a 90º fitting first would have been good?


Yes... the idea it to keep the rubber or metal hose straight...

The vibrations can cause a failure in any bend along the way...


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

B4T said:


> Yes... the idea it to keep the rubber or metal hose straight...
> 
> The vibrations can cause a failure in any bend along the way...


It says exactly that in the installation manual.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Hackster said:


> It says exactly that in the installation manual.


Sometimes the electrician doesn't tell the plumber about that and they take the quick way out.. :no:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Hackster said:


> I'm noticing a lot of generator installations without outside disconnects. No one is having a problem with that?
> 
> Also, what about the labeling that you are supposed to put by the meter or whatever saying there is a generator on site? I forget the article but from I read you need that even with an interlock or transfer panel connection. Anyone heard anything about that?


Most of these gens co.e with a breaker on them.

I install a sign on the meter pan and main panel or sub.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Hackster said:


> I'm noticing a lot of generator installations without outside disconnects. No one is having a problem with that?
> 
> Also, what about the labeling that you are supposed to put by the meter or whatever saying there is a generator on site? I forget the article but from I read you need that even with an interlock or transfer panel connection. Anyone heard anything about that?



1. Nah

2. Nope


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Hackster said:


> I'm noticing a lot of generator installations without outside disconnects. No one is having a problem with that?
> 
> Also, what about the labeling that you are supposed to put by the meter or whatever saying there is a generator on site? I forget the article but from I read you need that even with an interlock or transfer panel connection. Anyone heard anything about that?


It's not required if its within sight of the house. If its hidden by shrubs or not within sight it shall have a disconnect.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Not service rated, which it isn't doesn't fly here. The latest thing I heard is inspectors asking for disconnects for all the line voltage connections, the voltage sensing, battery chargers, etc.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Not service rated, which it isn't doesn't fly here. The latest thing I heard is inspectors asking for disconnects for all the line voltage connections, the voltage sensing, battery chargers, etc.


A breaker isn't enough? They want a disconnect for voltage sensing and battery charge outside by generator?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No, it has to do with the conductors passing through the structure and that the breaker isn't service rated. The other stuff is the latest I've heard. I haven't encountered it yet.


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## electricity101 (Jun 8, 2010)

Trick question:

Is the generator a separately derived service?

Are the conductors considered a feeder?

If the answer is No, and yes.....then the generator breaker doesn't have to be service rated because it isn't a service.

Also, if the generator isn't a service and just a piece of equipment with a feeder why would we pound a ground rod at the unit and attach to the lug? Don't we already have an equipment ground with the feeder to the generator?

Interesting thread. We install Generac Generators. SE rated, Non Se rated, load shed, non-load shed. This is what our customers are asking for 30 to 1. It's a really tough sell for Kohler with the 5' setback. Good product we installed a couple of these.

We do a 187 LB Gen pad on every install. It's the way to go but it's expensive if you can't buy them in bulk.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricity101 said:


> Trick question:
> 
> Is the generator a separately derived service?


Well that is a trick question as you will not find _'separately derived service'_ in the NEC. You may have been thinking of a _'separately derived system'_



> *Separately Derived System.* A premises wiring system
> whose power is derived from a source of electric energy or
> equipment other than a service. Such systems have no direct
> connection from circuit conductors of one system to
> ...


A generator can be installed as a separately derived system or not, that is up to the installer.

But either way an onsite generator is never a _service_, a service can only be provided by a utility.



> *Service.* The conductors and equipment for delivering electric
> energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
> the premises served.






electricity101 said:


> Are the conductors considered a feeder?


Yes



> *Feeder.* All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
> the source of a separately derived system, or other
> power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent
> device.





electricity101 said:


> If the answer is No, and yes.....then the generator breaker doesn't have to be service rated because it isn't a service.


It is a feeder from the generator to to the building and still requires a service rated disconnecting means. See 225.36



> *ARTICLE 225
> Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders
> 
> II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a
> ...





electricity101 said:


> Also, if the generator isn't a service and just a piece of equipment with a feeder why would we pound a ground rod at the unit and attach to the lug? Don't we already have an equipment ground with the feeder to the generator?


Usually because the generator instructions require it and therefore the NEC requires it via 110.3(B)



> *110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use
> of Equipment.
> 
> (B) Installation and Use.* Listed or labeled equipment
> ...





electricity101 said:


> Interesting thread. We install Generac Generators. SE rated, Non Se rated, load shed, non-load shed.


Interesting that you are doing that but do not seem to know the codes for doing so. :jester:


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## tufts46argled (Dec 23, 2007)

_Quote: Also, if the generator isn't a service and just a piece of equipment with a feeder why would we pound a ground rod at the unit and attach to the lug? Don't we already have an equipment ground with the feeder to the generator?_

Actually, you don't need to ground the generator. Even though the manufacturer provides the lug on the unit it's not required and in fact creates a parallel path to ground. Generac has issued a bulletin about this and Mike Holt has covered it. I don't have the particulars in front of me to give the quotes.


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

tufts46argled said:


> _Quote: Also, if the generator isn't a service and just a piece of equipment with a feeder why would we pound a ground rod at the unit and attach to the lug? Don't we already have an equipment ground with the feeder to the generator?_
> 
> Actually, you don't need to ground the generator. Even though the manufacturer provides the lug on the unit it's not required and in fact creates a parallel path to ground. Generac has issued a bulletin about this and Mike Holt has covered it. I don't have the particulars in front of me to give the quotes.


 Only because the generator manufacturer says to install one. It's not required by code.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have to see if I can find that bulletin. One less ground rod is one less ground rod.


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## tufts46argled (Dec 23, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I'll have to see if I can find that bulletin. One less ground rod is one less ground rod.


I've been looking thru Generac's dealer sites and I can't find it, so they may not have sent anything out on it, but it was defiantly covered at the Dealer Conference by Mike Holt and brought up more than once. Sorry for any confusion. I can find nothing in the new installation guide about ground rods period! But, they're not required!


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## electricity101 (Jun 8, 2010)

What can I say....it seems like BBQ's mind is made up.

Maybe he's got some inside information? Manufacturers spec sheets? Experience with standby power? Has installed and inspected many generator systems in past? 

I speak with many inspectors each week as we install automatic standby power, but my favorite ones are the inspectors that have been a contractor and worked in the field and then became and inspector. They generally have both experience and some code knowledge. It was the inspectors that just knew the code book but hadn't worked in the field that seemed to get off on the wrong track. Not always the case, but just an observation. In many cases I don't know the inspectors well enough to know what their background is. 

I don't know BBQ but I do like the quotes as this brings some good information to the table, but the application of these code sections has to be taken in context.

How can you have your mind made up without knowing if the Generac or Kohler spec sheet says, "you shall drive a ground rod for the generator" (by the way it doesn't) it says, "connect an approved ground strap on to the ground lug on the base frame and to an approved earth ground or the grounding rod as specified by local regulations". Since NEC doesn't require it, and unless your local jurisdiction has other written rules....you can skip it (in the last 60 standby installs we have not installed on ground rod). And yes, I did speak with Mike Holt as well at conference and he advises against a ground rod at the generator (parallel path)

Don't have enough time to go into the service rated disconnect, but that isn't isn't interpreted correctly either. Blanket statements are only going to confuse somebody trying to understand how to connect standby power. 

It's almost like there is just enough correct information to show some logic and reasoning, but then it all leads to an incorrect conclusion. i.e. the ground rods, partially correct info on the service disconnect. 

Finally the last glaring statement "A generator can be installed as a separately derived system or not, that is up to the installer" is not correct when it comes to residential standby power. It may be possible but it never ever happens. You would need to simultaneously disconnect the hots and the neutrals in the ATS during load transfer, and guess what...that doesn't happen.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It won't hurt my feelings. Like to go to the dealer conference one of these years.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Oooo..... bobs gonna let you have it when he gets back from dinner...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricity101 said:


> What can I say....it seems like BBQ's mind is made up.


My mind is pretty well made up based on the sections I posted. 

You are welcome to post some code sections that change what I posted. 





> Maybe he's got some inside information?


Not really inside, just information.




> Manufacturers spec sheets?


Not handy.




> Experience with standby power?


A lot




> Has installed and inspected many generator systems in past?


Yes, as for installing and yes as far as passing inspections.







> How can you have your mind made up without knowing if the Generac or Kohler spec sheet says, "you shall drive a ground rod for the generator" (by the way it doesn't) it says, "connect an approved ground strap on to the ground lug on the base frame and to an approved earth ground or the grounding rod as specified by local regulations".


I did not say every generator, I said 'usually' and I just worked on one last week that had the specific labeling of 'Connect generator frame to grounding electrode of 25 ohms or less'.

But I do agree with you, not all generators have the same instructions. 




> Since NEC doesn't require it, and unless your local jurisdiction has other written rules....you can skip it (in the last 60 standby installs we have not installed on ground rod).


Again, if the ones you are installing do not require one, and you say they do not ........ you do not have to. 




> And yes, I did speak with Mike Holt as well at conference and he advises against a ground rod at the generator (parallel path)


But he would tell you to install one anyway if the code required it. 



> Don't have enough time to go into the service rated disconnect, but that isn't isn't interpreted correctly either. Blanket statements are only going to confuse somebody trying to understand how to connect standby power.


You don't have time, or you don't know how to change the fact it says what it says.:laughing:

If the generator is outside and supplying the building with a feeder a service rated disconnect is required by the NEC even if not enforced by your local inspectors. 



> It's almost like there is just enough correct information to show some logic and reasoning, but then it all leads to an incorrect conclusion. i.e. the ground rods, partially correct info on the service disconnect.


So instead of just telling me I am wrong, show me I am wrong, show me the code that contradicts what I have said.



> Finally the last glaring statement "A generator can be installed as a separately derived system or not, that is up to the installer" is not correct when it comes to residential standby power. It may be possible but it never ever happens. You would need to simultaneously disconnect the hots and the neutrals in the ATS during load transfer, and guess what...that doesn't happen.


So my statement is correct, if the installer decided to use a transfer switch with a switched neutral they could do what I said. It has nothing to do with what is commonly done, just what could be done.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Oooo..... bobs gonna let you have it when he gets back from dinner...


I was nice. :jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ... I have to thank you for posting all that information.. it would take me a full day to find all those code references..

I have to give credit when it is due.. but you're still dead wrong about the NSA


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> but you're still dead wrong about the NSA


Whatever dude. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

3xdad said:


> Yeah. When i finish up, i'll post update pics on that thread. You subscribed?:thumbsup:


Mike Holt says you shouldn't have installed that ground rod. :laughing:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Mike Holt says you shouldn't have installed that ground rod. :laughing:


:laughing:

He'll really come unglued when i take that bond back to the wellhouse electrode.:whistling2:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> It is a feeder from the generator to to the building and still requires a service rated disconnecting means. See 225.36


I don't think a service rated disconnect for a generator is required based on Article 225 or section 225.36.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> I don't think a service rated disconnect for a generator is required based on Article 225 or section 225.36.


That's nice that you think that but can you explain why?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> I don't think a service rated disconnect for a generator is required based on Article 225 or section 225.36.


It's an outside feeder, read the definitions. Service rated disconnecting means is required and the point where the feeder enters the structure being served.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That's nice that you think that but can you explain why?



Why yes, I think Article 225 applies to outside branch circuits and feeders that are on the load side of a "service disconnecting means." I know that Section 225.1 does not have any such wording, but under Part II, Section 225.30 there is such wording and Section 225.36 falls under Part II.

Also, I agree with your statement in post 309 that a generator is not a service, so the feeder on a genny is not on the load side of a "service disconnecting means." Therefore no service rated disco.

Also, also,  the exceptions in 225.36 would allow a genny to not have a service rate disconnect if it feed a garage/outbuilding on residential property. That does not make sense to me if one was required for a building.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Why yes, I think Article 225 applies to outside branch circuits and feeders that are on the load side of a "service disconnecting means." I know that Section 225.1 does not have any such wording, but under Part II, Section 225.30 there is such wording and Section 225.36 falls under Part II.


There is nothing in 225.30 that changes or applies to the requirements of 225.36.

The generator producers a feeder, the feeder supplies a building, 225.31 requires the feeder to have a disconnecting means, 225.36 requires that disconnecting means to be service rated.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

BBQ said:


> for sure the PVC is in the required workspace of the transfer switch, maybe the gas line as well.


I would have to agree on this. Looking at the picture is looks like the electrical and the gas line are in front of transfer switch:no:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

3xdad said:


> :laughing:
> 
> He'll really come unglued when i take that bond back to the wellhouse electrode.:whistling2:


I don't even install rods at well sites, I just bond to the casing.


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