# Wet location / brewery codes



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I work in a food plant, and have worked in food and pharma off and on my whole career. 

A job like this will generally have specs out the wazoo for washdown and sanitation. Ask. Also ask for a pre bid walk through to "copy" the look, feel, and style of what they have there now.

In a nutshell, no Pvc, no galvanized. Either Ocal or Calbrite. Everything spaced off the wall and/or adjoining surfaces for poper washdown. All hardware stainless. No lead anchors. Sloped topped stainless junction boxes. Special washdown stainless strut (z shaped and hat shaped). Bottom entry in cabinets and jboxes only. Conduit drains in the lowest point of every conduit. Labor calculates out at 3.1 to 3.3 times RMC.


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## JDSparky (Jun 11, 2018)

Can you state the code so I can let my superindent know? He’s doubting code book


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## JDSparky (Jun 11, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> I work in a food plant, and have worked in food and pharma off and on my whole career.
> 
> A job like this will generally have specs out the wazoo for washdown and sanitation. Ask. Also ask for a pre bid walk through to "copy" the look, feel, and style of what they have there now.
> 
> In a nutshell, no Pvc, no galvanized. Either Ocal or Calbrite. Everything spaced off the wall and/or adjoining surfaces for poper washdown. All hardware stainless. No lead anchors. Sloped topped stainless junction boxes. Special washdown stainless strut (z shaped and hat shaped). Bottom entry in cabinets and jboxes only. Conduit drains in the lowest point of every conduit. Labor calculates out at 3.1 to 3.3 times RMC.


 can you state the exact code for me so I can show my superintendent ? He’s doubting the code. If you can give exact code that’d be great! Thanks


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

JDSparky said:


> can you state the exact code for me so I can show my superintendent ? He’s doubting the code. If you can give exact code that’d be great! Thanks


There ain't one, bro. This is the "above code" stuff that is traditional and normal in food and pharma. The customer likely has their own "code" that could be even more strict than the basic stuff I laid out.


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## Grounded-B (Jan 5, 2011)

It's not all in the NEC. - Read the specs for the job. 1/4" spacing off the wall is in the NEC, don't recall exact article. Aluminum rigid conduit may also be acceptable.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Grounded-B said:


> It's not all in the NEC. - Read the specs for the job. 1/4" spacing off the wall is in the NEC, don't recall exact article. Aluminum rigid conduit may also be acceptable.


Correct, some places might still allow aluminium. It's being phased out because it turns to dust. The 1/4" is what the NEC requires, but food plants are more like 3/4" to 2", depending on the customer. Could use stainless coupling nuts for spacers or have a shop turn up a bunch of UHMW spacers to suit the spec. Some places even make you caulk around the spacer-to-wall joint.

I'll confess I'm gobsmacked that they're doing a job at a brewery and the customer hasn't given them this information yet. The sanitary design requirements are one of the first things food and beverage customers want to get in your hands.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> I work in a food plant, and have worked in food and pharma off and on my whole career.
> 
> A job like this will generally have specs out the wazoo for washdown and sanitation. Ask. Also ask for a pre bid walk through to "copy" the look, feel, and style of what they have there now.
> 
> In a nutshell, no Pvc, no galvanized. Either Ocal or Calbrite. Everything spaced off the wall and/or adjoining surfaces for poper washdown. All hardware stainless. No lead anchors. Sloped topped stainless junction boxes. Special washdown stainless strut (z shaped and hat shaped). Bottom entry in cabinets and jboxes only. Conduit drains in the lowest point of every conduit. Labor calculates out at 3.1 to 3.3 times RMC.





Yep sounds like my company except we don't insist on low point drains on every pipe. If you use a low point drain it has to be a auto drain (all cabinets get auto drains). In simple terms all pipes has to be insect proof so no open conduit drains.


Aluminum is banned as acid will eat that with in a few months and bleach can eat it with in a few days.


If you have pvc coated bending dies and have a set of threading dies machined to fit pvc coated ridged its not bad to work with. Most places do not rent these tools. 


You may be able to use stainless ridged but some places do not like to see that as it looks the same as the rest of the stainless jungle. They fear a mechanic/welder will mistake electrical for piping. 


If the company is new they may not know the rules themselves. Once they fail there first audit they will learn the hard way.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah, the OP's opener about using EMT told me right off the bat they're in for an eye opener. There's nothing "normal" about food and pharma electrical installations. The NEC still applies, but there's so much extra you have to deal with that never really crossed most people's minds when you deal with both washdown and sanitary design.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

I have wired 3 Micro Breweries.

I don't know about all that other stuff drains and stuff but, it's pretty much up to the Plant Manger....

your not brewing beer in the electrical conduits.

We typicality run EMT when attached to the building...when we attach conduit to equipment we use Heavy wall. We often use Aluminum heavy wall; easier to bend around equipment. When we are in areas where they get exposed to beer or get washed down often with beer we use Stainless Steel...only in that immediate area.

Use cords and seal tight on equipment when every feasible.. Everything water tight.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Micro breweries are like kids playing in a sandbox. I guess we're trying to explain how it's done, for real, in an actual food and beverage facility. When a micro brewery gets bigger and they start having 3rd party audits or when they start chasing phage and unwanted yeasts and molds, they might be kicking themselves for not paying attention to sanitary design.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Tonedeaf said:


> I have wired 3 Micro Breweries.
> 
> I don't know about all that other stuff drains and stuff but, it's pretty much up to the Plant Manger....
> 
> ...



You can thank terrorists for some of the new rules like food defense, food safety, etc. (you can also thank nasa who designed the original system that keeps your food safe to eat)

A micro brewery that does not sell to a retail chain may be able to get away with out having to be audited as thats a customers requirement. 
If they do well and approach a large retail chain they will be asked to pass certain audits. 

You can probably pass a audit using any material you like for the first few years but at the first sign of problem they will give you a unsatisfactory mark which could mean a complete shut down until rectified. (possibly a hold order as a added bonus).


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

*Breweries are except* from many aspects of FDA regulations and oversight. Including most of food safety act of 2011....which was really meant bring our food processing facilities to a modern era....the previous laws were from the 1930's. Many companies had to move operations because their buildings could not be economically brought up the new rules.

Unless your customer requires a third party inspections. Which I have Been threw many (they are yearly and quarterly)...most of them are looking for unclean items...bugs...rodents...places to wash hands....unsanitary plumbing...workers dressed properly.....usually not looking at electric unless you have extension cords running all over the place. I been through many inspections for customers that supply items for Walmart and target. These retailer require a certain SCORE.



gpop said:


> You can thank terrorists for some of the new rules like food defense, food safety, etc. (you can also thank nasa who designed the original system that keeps your food safe to eat)
> 
> A micro brewery that does not sell to a retail chain may be able to get away with out having to be audited as thats a customers requirement.
> If they do well and approach a large retail chain they will be asked to pass certain audits.
> ...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Ibtl


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Tonedeaf said:


> *Breweries are except* from many aspects of FDA regulations and oversight. Including most of food safety act of 2011....which was really meant bring our food processing facilities to a modern era....the previous laws were from the 1930's. Many companies had to move operations because their buildings could not be economically brought up the new rules.
> 
> Unless your customer requires a third party inspections. Which I have Been threw many (they are yearly and quarterly)...most of them are looking for unclean items...bugs...rodents...places to wash hands....unsanitary plumbing...workers dressed properly.....usually not looking at electric unless you have extension cords running all over the place. I been through many inspections for customers that supply items for Walmart and target. These retailer require a certain SCORE.



Interesting i didn't know breweries were different. I thought they fell under the same guide lines as juice plants. Most of our customers require 22000 which is a little more detailed than a standard audit and includes a large section on engineering, maintenance, calibration and repairs.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Breweries are not exempt from FSMA. Plain and simple.


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## colorado_electrician (Jun 11, 2018)

Yep, breweries i've worked in required OCAL in most areas around the lines and in wet production areas. 
All per their local specs I have seen competitors come in and bid jobs to code not reading the customers spec book and lost their ass because of it!


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

FSMA specifically defines alcoholic beverages as food, and for the first time brings breweries, wineries, cider producers and distilleries under direct FDA regulation, without affecting TTB authority. As per Code of Federal Regulations Title 21, Subpart A, Section 117.5 (21 CFR 117.5),* these facilities are exempt from several portions of FSMA, but need to comply with some of the requirements regardless of the size of their operation.*

really not plain nor so simple.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I work in a food plant, and have worked in food and pharma off and on my whole career.
> 
> A job like this will generally have specs out the wazoo for washdown and sanitation. Ask. Also ask for a pre bid walk through to "copy" the look, feel, and style of what they have there now.
> 
> In a nutshell, no Pvc, no galvanized. Either Ocal or Calbrite. Everything spaced off the wall and/or adjoining surfaces for poper washdown. All hardware stainless. No lead anchors. Sloped topped stainless junction boxes. Special washdown stainless strut (z shaped and hat shaped). Bottom entry in cabinets and jboxes only. Conduit drains in the lowest point of every conduit. Labor calculates out at 3.1 to 3.3 times RMC.


I hate PVC coated rigid in wash down locations. No matter what you do the water and chemicals will get into and corrode the raceway. I am a fan of stainless only and the last 2 food places I worked at had that as a spec. More expensive and labor intensive but you should never ever have the corrosion issues.



MDShunk said:


> There ain't one, bro. This is the "above code" stuff that is traditional and normal in food and pharma. The customer likely has their own "code" that could be even more strict than the basic stuff I laid out.


There are a number of codes that are directly related a few would be 110.3(A) when it comes to equipment suitability, 110.11, and 300.6 in its entirety which includes the 1/4" gap (300.6(D)) from the wall.

Good manufacturing practices drive a lot of the stricter requirements.



Grounded-B said:


> It's not all in the NEC. - Read the specs for the job. 1/4" spacing off the wall is in the NEC, don't recall exact article. Aluminum rigid conduit may also be acceptable.


See above.


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