# Tool List



## electricista

TxElectrician said:


> Adding a minimum required tool list to my employee handbook. Any additions or items that you think should not be required? TIA.


How about a scale ruler to use with the plans instead of a tape measure.


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## 480sparky

If I ever start hiring people, here's the list that will be in thier EHs:

*No experience:*
Tool belt
Tool pouch
Parts pouch
Wire strippers
Linesman pliers
Diagonal cutting pliers
Needle nose pliers
Straight screwdriver
#2 Phillips screwdriver
Hammer
25ft. tape measure
9" magnetic torpedo level

*3 Months:*
12" Arc-joint (ChannelLock) pliers
12" hacksaw
Plug-in GFCI receptacle tester
Nut drivers ¼" and 5/16" 
Retractable utility knife
Drywall saw

*6 Months:*
Nut driver 3/8" 
Conduit reamer screwdriver
Allen wrench sets Fractional & Metric
Cordless drill w/ 2 batteries 12V minimum

*1 Year:*
Large wire cutters
Balance of nut driver set
Current edition of NEC
Calculator
1-1¼" KO set
File set

*2 Years:*
Volt/Ohm Meter
VB2 and VB10 Lenox UniBits

*3 Years:*
100’ steel measuring tape
1" Concrete chisel
Amp meter

*4 Years:*
Cordless Reciprocating Saw

*5 Years:*
Journeyman card



This is _my_ list, not yours. Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't have. I know many will cry and harp about being required to buy power tools. But what I intend to pay my help will cover it.


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## TxElectrician

Thanks, I like the way you break your list down 480.


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## Noe

Hey there Central TX,
If the guys up there are smart asses like they are down here, you might want to be specific on the types and sizes. I do not put it past my guys to be carrying around a ship channel code book or something if I said "code book" is required.
I think I would add on the "all" list a keyhole saw. Other than that, looks good.:thumbsup:


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## Kletis

TxElectrician said:


> Adding a minimum required tool list to my employee handbook. Any additions or items that you think should not be required? TIA.
> 
> All levels-
> kliens, needle nose, dikes, large flathead, large beater, trim flathead, #2 phillips, 2pr channelock, 1/4" & 5/16" nut driver, belt and pouch, voltage tester, hammer, rotozip, hacksaw or battery sawzall, cordless drill, tape measure
> 
> Journeyman- in addition to above list
> codebook, protractor, 1/2 - 1 1/4 KO set, DMM, 3/8" drive socket set, 2 pair large channelock, 1/2round file


 
Wire Strippers and a #2 square drive screwdriver.


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## Jeff000

480, I like your list. Looks somewhat similar to my companies.
Myself being a 2nd year (almost 3rd) I generally have more tools then anyone else on site. 
Its so much easier to get jobs done with the proper tools. And it gets me projects that are more fun and interesting, but not being a dumbass might have something to do with that too. 



TxElectrician said:


> Adding a minimum required tool list to my employee handbook. Any additions or items that you think should not be required? TIA.
> 
> All levels-
> kliens, needle nose, dikes, large flathead, large beater, trim flathead, #2 phillips, 2pr channelock, 1/4" & 5/16" nut driver, belt and pouch, voltage tester, hammer, *rotozip*, hacksaw or battery sawzall, cordless drill, tape measure
> 
> Journeyman- in addition to above list
> codebook, protractor, 1/2 - 1 1/4 KO set, DMM, *3/8" drive socket set*, 2 pair large channelock, 1/2round file



Rotozip? Why would they need a rotozip? Seems like an expensive tool thats not needed. They shouldn't be cutting out that much drywall, its the dry wallers job, a simple drywall saw seems much better, would leave them with more money for more important jobs. 

And why 3/8's?


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## mikeh32

this is my list.

* Required technician hand tools as listed below;* *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Punch tool w/110 & 66 blades *
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *RJ-45/RJ-11 crimp tool*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Coax crimp tool (RG-59, 62 & 6)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Coax stripper (RG-59, 62 & 6)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Cat 5 strippers*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Wire strippers (Miller type)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Utility knife*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Cable cutters*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Wire Cutters*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *T&B Sta-Kon tool*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Lineman pliers*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Channel locks (2 pairs)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Flathead screwdrivers (assorted sizes)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Phillips-head screwdrivers (assorted sizes)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Sheetrock saw (hand type)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Nut drivers (1/4” through 7/16”)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Hacksaw*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Hammer*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Tool pouch*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Volt-ohm meter*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Toolbox (20” x 8½” x 9” minimum with lock)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Scissors*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Awl*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Flashlight*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Tone generator*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Tone probe*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Tape measure*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Torpedo level (8”)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Cordless Drill (3/8” chuck)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Drill bit set (1/8” to ½”)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Paddle bit set (1/4” to 1”)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Hole saw set (7/8” to 2”)*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Test Phone*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *Small P-Touch Labeler*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *100’ 1/8” fish tape*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *6 foot step ladder*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *10 foot step ladder*
*[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *12 foot step ladder*


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## 480sparky

Jeff000 said:


> ........And why 3/8's?


It's the most common size?



mikeh32 said:


> this is my list.
> 
> *Required technician hand tools as listed below;* *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Punch tool w/110 & 66 blades *
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**RJ-45/RJ-11 crimp tool*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Coax crimp tool (RG-59, 62 & 6)*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Coax stripper (RG-59, 62 & 6)*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Cat 5 strippers*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Wire strippers (Miller type)*
> *[FONT=&quot]........[/FONT]*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**T&B Sta-Kon tool*
> *[FONT=&quot]..........[/FONT]*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Scissors*
> *[FONT=&quot]..........[/FONT]*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Tone generator*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Tone probe*
> *,,,,,,,,,,,*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Test Phone*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]**Small P-Touch Labeler*
> *[FONT=&quot]............[/FONT]*


Do much low-voltage? :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk

480sparky said:


> Do much low-voltage? :thumbsup:


Yeah, a bit of a flashback there... RG-62 isn't used very much anymore. Not even sure where I'd get my hands on some if I needed some tomorrow. I ran some for some green screen terminals 3 or 4 years ago. Probably a 3270 system. I'm not sure I ever really knew at the time.


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## robnj772

480 has it dead on.

Just why would you require a roto zip is what I would love to know.

As for a scale ruler,the only use for a scale ruler on the job site is to stir your coffee when the helper forgot to get stirrers. Leave that ruler at the office where it belongs


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## Jeff000

mikeh32 said:


> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *6 foot step ladder*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *10 foot step ladder*
> *[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]* *12 foot step ladder*


I have never heard of having ladders on the tool list. I mean unless you were looking for more of a subcontractor then employee. 



480sparky said:


> It's the most common size?


I more meant why specifically list 3/8? My tool list has Socket set on without specifying drive size. I use my 1/2" more. But mostly because all my allen head sockets are 1/2" and I use my ratcheting wrenches more then my sockets.


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## TxElectrician

robnj772 said:


> 480 has it dead on.
> 
> Just why would you require a roto zip is what I would love to know.


Brain thought roto SPLIT, fingers typed ZIP:whistling2:


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## 480sparky

Just a thought..... if you're going to require an employee to have the tool, also require them to have them _on the job_. If you don't specify this, some smartass is going to say, "Yea I got one of those.... it's at home in my garage. So what?"


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## Jeff000

TxElectrician said:


> Brain thought roto SPLIT, fingers typed ZIP:whistling2:



What is a roto split?


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## TOOL_5150

Jeff000 said:


> What is a roto split?


its for stripping MC cable


~Matt


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## randomkiller

Well I understand your points of view but I would skip a job that wants me to supply powertools and consumables like knockouts and drill bits. And if a guy asked me to bring my own ladders, once I stopped laughing I would probably tell him to go F himself on my way out to see a real contractor.


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## TxElectrician

Thanks for all the replies.


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## LGLS

randomkiller said:


> Well I understand your points of view but I would skip a job that wants me to supply powertools and consumables like knockouts and drill bits. And if a guy asked me to bring my own ladders, once I stopped laughing I would probably tell him to go F himself on my way out to see a real contractor.


Soon they'll be demanding you supply material!


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## Jeff000

TOOL_5150 said:


> its for stripping MC cable
> 
> 
> ~Matt


Is it that much faster then using a hacksaw? or for the smaller stuff just bending it and then twist and cut with side cutters?
I a lot of work with MC cable.


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## 480sparky

Jeff000 said:


> What is a roto split?


 











randomkiller said:


> Well I understand your points of view but I would skip a job that wants me to supply powertools and consumables like knockouts and drill bits. And if a guy asked me to bring my own ladders, once I stopped laughing I would probably tell him to go F himself on my way out to see a real contractor.


You must be under the assumption that every employer will pay you the exact same wage. This is not the case in the real world. Some ECs pay their help more to defray the cost they impose on them by requiring them to supply more tools. They believe the employee will treat the tools better if they pay for them themselves.


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## piette

480sparky said:


> You must be under the assumption that every employer will pay you the exact same wage. This is not the case in the real world. Some ECs pay their help more to defray the cost they impose on them by requiring them to supply more tools. They believe the employee will treat the tools better if they pay for them themselves.


The highest paying shop I ever worked at, which was considerably higher paying than any shop anybody I ever knew worked at and is well known to be about the highest paying shop in this area (not including union, I never checked there) never required anything more than basic hand tools.

I too would laugh my ass off at any employer requiring me to supply my own ladders and roto zip. I would drive right off to the next real contractor that can actually afford to have tools for his employees. 

Jeff


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## 480sparky

piette said:


> The highest paying shop I ever worked at, which was considerably higher paying than any shop anybody I ever knew worked at and is well known to be about the highest paying shop in this area (not including union, I never checked there) never required anything more than basic hand tools.
> 
> I too would laugh my ass off at any employer requiring me to supply my own ladders and roto zip. I would drive right off to the next real contractor that can actually afford to have tools for his employees.
> 
> Jeff


 
I said _some_. Not _all_.


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## Toronto Sparky

Guessing No union Guys in this thread! 
IBEW has a list of tools.. nothing less, nothing more.
If one needs more tools the contractor will supply them. (In a perfect world)
Remember why back when they used to conduct tool checks..
The reason for the list is not allow an advantage to the guys that require a service truck to transport their personal tools..


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## MDShunk

Toronto Sparky said:


> Guessing No union Guys in this thread!
> IBEW has a list of tools.. nothing less, nothing more.
> If one needs more tools the contractor will supply them. (In a perfect world)
> Remember why back when they used to conduct tool checks..
> The reason for the list is not allow an advantage to the guys that require a service truck to transport their personal tools..


Yeah, heaven forbid that some guy would have the amition and willingness to excel beyond his "brothers". Brothers who have decided to hold him back, it would seem. 

In much the same way that classroom education is often geared toward teaching the dumbest kid in the room, it seems that some of these union policies are geared toward the least motivated guy in a given group.


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## mikeh32

im a low voltage electrician. and yeah, they made us have our own ladders.


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## 480sparky

Toronto Sparky said:


> Guessing No union Guys in this thread!
> .........


Did you miss the posts about "If I gotta supply more than a pair of strippers and a tape measure I walk out..."?


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## user5941

Employees supply their own side tools ,pouch ,linemans,side cutters,needle nose,strippers,chanellocks,screwdrivers flat and phillips,tape measure. All other tools I supply power tools ladders ,benders fishtapes etc etc. I dont want guys bringing their own battery tools it causes to much drama,We were two hours from home and packing up to leave when one guy couldn't find "his " battery I told hgim we would sort it out at the shop but he wanted it right then so we searched the trucks until we found it the next day I banned pesonal battery tools.


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## electricalperson

rewire said:


> Employees supply their own side tools ,pouch ,linemans,side cutters,needle nose,strippers,chanellocks,screwdrivers flat and phillips,tape measure. All other tools I supply power tools ladders ,benders fishtapes etc etc. I dont want guys bringing their own battery tools it causes to much drama,We were two hours from home and packing up to leave when one guy couldn't find "his " battery I told hgim we would sort it out at the shop but he wanted it right then so we searched the trucks until we found it the next day I banned pesonal battery tools.


 i would of banned him from the company instead


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## electricalperson

i supply all my tools. power tools included. i have a hole hawg, magnum drill, cordless sawzall, megger, amprobe and other meters. i even supply torque wrenches, cutters and every hand tool ill ever need. i dont mind it i would rather use my own tools than somebody elses abused tools. only thing i dont like to supply is sawzall blades and drill bits. i used to supply my own nail eaters but i dont use them that much anymore. we have the option of using the bosses tools but i would rather use mine.

i understand how some bosses wont supply power tools. the workers seem to beat them more than there own and dont care if they loose them. if i had a company i would require my guys to have a cordless tool kit. at least a cordless sawzall and drill


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## MDShunk

I think it's probably generally a fair statement that companies that require certain power tools (or unusual hand tools), will have them repaired for you if they fail in the normal course of work. 

If I was working for a guy, I'd want to use my own cordless drill no matter what the policy. Nowadays, the selection of a cordless drill is somewhat personal, and I know I'm more productive with the drill of my choice rather than someone else's idea of what they think will do a good job.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> I think it's probably generally a fair statement that companies that require certain power tools (or unusual hand tools), will have them repaired for you if they fail in the normal course of work.
> 
> If I was working for a guy, I'd want to use my own cordless drill no matter what the policy. Nowadays, the selection of a cordless drill is somewhat personal, and I know I'm more productive with the drill of my choice rather than someone else's idea of what they think will do a good job.


 what do you require your guys to have?


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## MDShunk

electricalperson said:


> what do you require your guys to have?


The usual.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> The usual.


 just hand tools?


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## MDShunk

electricalperson said:


> just hand tools?


Very few of us operate tools with our feet, silly.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> Very few of us operate tools with our feet, silly.


 i was wondering if you made them supply anything other than hand tools. like meters, knock out punch, power tools, hydraulic bender, greenlee wire pullers etc


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## MDShunk

electricalperson said:


> i was wondering if you made them supply anything other than hand tools. like meters, knock out punch, power tools, hydraulic bender, greenlee wire pullers etc


Depends on what the agreement is.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> Depends on what the agreement is.


 what tools would you make me supply if you hire me


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## MDShunk

electricalperson said:


> what tools would you make me supply if you hire me


I'd hire you just so that I could fire you. :thumbsup: All you'd need is a can of silly putty and a crying towel.


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## electricalperson

MDShunk said:


> I'd hire you just so that I could fire you. :thumbsup: All you'd need is a can of silly putty and a crying towel.


 i knew you would say something like that :laughing: if i hired you all i would require you to have is a shovel :laughing:


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## user5941

MDShunk said:


> Very few of us operate tools with our feet, silly.


 Greenlee footpump knockout set


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## MDShunk

rewire said:


> Greenlee footpump knockout set


Wise guy. Yeah, sometimes I guide a core bit to get it started with my boots instead of getting the vacuum working. I guess climbing hooks are sort of foot operated.


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## Noe

This is probably not an issue to resi EC, (or is it?). We are required to keep electrical tools GFCI protected and/or under assured grounding program by OSHA. We would have a hard time doing that with personal tools.


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## 480sparky

MDShunk said:


> Very few of us operate tools with our feet, silly.


Ladders? :laughing:


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## user4818

electricalperson said:


> i knew you would say something like that :laughing:



Marc obviously got beat up a lot as a youngster.


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## MDShunk

Noe said:


> This is probably not an issue to resi EC, (or is it?). We are required to keep electrical tools GFCI protected and/or under assured grounding program by OSHA. We would have a hard time doing that with personal tools.


No, not really. Everyone is issued control tags for their power tools and next inspection you go around hunting them up. Bring a new corded tool in, you just can't use it until you get it checked out and a control tag issued.


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## user5941

electricalperson said:


> i supply all my tools. power tools included. i have a hole hawg, magnum drill, cordless sawzall, megger, amprobe and other meters. i even supply torque wrenches, cutters and every hand tool ill ever need. i dont mind it i would rather use my own tools than somebody elses abused tools. only thing i dont like to supply is sawzall blades and drill bits. i used to supply my own nail eaters but i dont use them that much anymore. we have the option of using the bosses tools but i would rather use mine.
> 
> i understand how some bosses wont supply power tools. the workers seem to beat them more than there own and dont care if they loose them. if i had a company i would require my guys to have a cordless tool kit. at least a cordless sawzall and drill


 How do you deal with working with an apprentice is he allowed access to your tools? What if one gets damaged?

had an apprentice put a guys battery tool set on the back of the truck a rain storm came up and soakjed the tools the guy was yelling at the apprentice for getting his tools wet.

I have not had good luck with employee tools,I tell the guys you want it I'll buy it but it better make money!!


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## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Marc obviously got beat up a lot as a youngster.


I still feel young. Heck, I am young. Old is in the mind, and I think I'll stay 30-something forever.


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## electricalperson

Peter D said:


> Marc obviously got beat up a lot as a youngster.


 he probably deserved it :thumbsup:


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## MDShunk

480sparky said:


> Ladders? :laughing:


I'd like to see you erecting a ladder with your feet.


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## Noe

MDShunk said:


> No, not really. Everyone is issued control tags for their power tools and next inspection you go around hunting them up. Bring a new corded tool in, you just can't use it until you get it checked out and a control tag issued.


I guess that makes sense.Guessing it is hell to keep up with, but it would work.


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## 480sparky

MDShunk said:


> I'd like to see you erecting a ladder with your feet.


I'm very talented. I even _use _the ladder with my feet as well.


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## MDShunk

480sparky said:


> I'm very talented. I even _use _the ladder with my feet as well.


Slacker. I set up ladders with my teeth here lately.


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## electricalperson

480sparky said:


> I'm very talented. I even _use _the ladder with my feet as well.


 i heard marc doesnt even need ladders. hes so good and powerful he just levitates


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## user5941

MDShunk said:


> Wise guy. Yeah, sometimes I guide a core bit to get it started with my boots instead of getting the vacuum working. I guess climbing hooks are sort of foot operated.


 Watched a guy from K C Coring drillng 2 in holes with a drycore bit he used his foot as a guide when he finished I asked how he kept his boots from wearing out he showed me the side of his boot were he had drilled a small steel plate.


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## Jeff000

MDShunk said:


> I think it's probably generally a fair statement that companies that require certain power tools (or unusual hand tools), will have them repaired for you if they fail in the normal course of work.


Company I work for does this. They provide bits and blades, just not the unibit, but they will replace when yours gets worn. 
Works out for both sides imo. 



480sparky said:


>


So I was curious and went and watched the video for this tool, seems to me like its much slower for bx then just bending it, giving it a twist and then cutting it. And then for the larger stuff I would need 3 of them for all the different sizes, and it really doesn't do any better then a hack saw. And its not even faster. 

Seatek did have a nice attachment for a sawsall though.


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## MDShunk

Jeff000 said:


> So I was curious and went and watched the video for this tool, seems to me like its much slower for bx then just bending it, giving it a twist and then cutting it. And then for the larger stuff I would need 3 of them for all the different sizes, and it really doesn't do any better then a hack saw. And its not even faster.
> 
> Seatek did have a nice attachment for a sawsall though.


Did you grow up in the Yukon territory? I'm trying to figure out where you've been at that you've never heard of a RotoSplit? I think it's been out since what, the 1970's?


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## Noe

So I was curious and went and watched the video for this tool, seems to me like its much slower for bx then just bending it, giving it a twist and then cutting it. And then for the larger stuff I would need 3 of them for all the different sizes, and it really doesn't do any better then a hack saw. And its not even faster. 

Seatek did have a nice attachment for a sawsall though.[/quote]
The actual benefit of the Roto Split is the clean cut it provides without damaging conductors. Usually not a problem if you are used to working MC with hacksaw or bending, but easier to teach and learn how to use this.


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## Jeff000

MDShunk said:


> Did you grow up in the Yukon territory? I'm trying to figure out where you've been at that you've never heard of a RotoSplit? I think it's been out since what, the 1970's?


In 1970 I was negative 13 years old..... 
I have been on the job 2 years now, almost 100% commercial, and work with LOTS of armored cable. I have never seen nor heard of a rotosplit. And I always wonder the tools at the suppliers when I am waiting. 
Watching the video, I do not think its faster or easier then other methods. And I am sure its not a cheap tool.


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## user4818

Jeff000 said:


> In 1970 I was negative 13 years old.....
> I have been on the job 2 years now, almost 100% commercial, and work with LOTS of armored cable. I have never seen nor heard of a rotosplit. And I always wonder the tools at the suppliers when I am waiting.
> Watching the video, I do not think its faster or easier then other methods. And I am sure its not a cheap tool.


Apparently the RotoSplit is contraband in Canada. :laughing:


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## Jeff000

Noe said:


> The actual benefit of the Roto Split is the clean cut it provides without damaging conductors. Usually not a problem if you are used to working MC with hacksaw or bending, but easier to teach and learn how to use this.


Clean cut with the sharp corner that you would have to cut off anyways. 
But yes I can agree that if your not used to working with armored cables how this would prevent damage. I don't think I am sold on it though.


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## 480sparky

MDShunk said:


> Slacker. I set up ladders with my teeth here lately.


Jeez, you sure do it the old-fashioned way. I just will it into place.


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## MDShunk

Jeff000 said:


> Clean cut with the sharp corner that you would have to cut off anyways.
> But yes I can agree that if your not used to working with armored cables how this would prevent damage. I don't think I am sold on it though.


...says the man who has never used one.


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## 480sparky

Jeff000 said:


> .........
> So I was curious and went and watched the video for this tool, seems to me like its much slower for bx then just bending it, giving it a twist and then cutting it. And then for the larger stuff I would need 3 of them for all the different sizes, and it really doesn't do any better then a hack saw. And its not even faster.
> 
> Seatek did have a nice attachment for a sawsall though.


I could care less about a video. If I have only a couple peices to terminate, I use the old-fashioned method. If I'm working with the stuff all day, I use the rotosplit.


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## Southeast Power

Peter D said:


> Apparently the RotoSplit is contraband in Canada. :laughing:


Send me a box of Cuban cigars and Ill send you a couple of Roto-Zips:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, heaven forbid that some guy would have the amition and willingness to excel beyond his "brothers". Brothers who have decided to hold him back, it would seem.
> 
> In much the same way that classroom education is often geared toward teaching the dumbest kid in the room, it seems that some of these union policies are geared toward the least motivated guy in a given group.


OK heres the tool situation.
When you take a call, it is assumed that you have the tools on the tool list. We plan our jobs around these basic tools and that makes it easy to mobilize a job. I know the tools, ladders, knock outs and benders Ill need and can control the condition and quantity of those tools.
If someone is taking home a ladder, bender or power tool. It really looks out of place and appears that the tool is not coming back.
I know people that show up with almost nothing, I know guys that need a pack mule to carry their stuff. Personal choice.
The contractor is required to provide a safe place to lock up tools on the jobs. If the "safe place" usually a gang box, gets broken into or completely stolen, the contractor is required to only replace the tools on the tool list.
Not a good situation for "pack mule" guy.


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## MechanicalDVR

480sparky said:


> You must be under the assumption that every employer will pay you the exact same wage. This is not the case in the real world. Some ECs pay their help more to defray the cost they impose on them by requiring them to supply more tools. They believe the employee will treat the tools better if they pay for them themselves.


 
Well in order for me to think about working at a shop that would have those requirements the pay rate would have to be higher than the Union (that only requires hand tools) scale for the same area. Benefits would have to be equal too or better than Union as well. I know there are contractors out there that are taking advantage of the unemployment situation right now, but how low can you go? Ladders and a roto zip.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

mikeh32 said:


> im a low voltage electrician. and yeah, they made us have our own ladders.


 
Ever work on a city job that you use public transportation to get there? I have and everything on my tool list fits in the bag I can carry on a subway car, bus, or train, the same bag that fits in a gangbox. It would suck having to carry around a 4', 6', and 8' ladder on your back.

A big thing would be the contractors liability or worker's comp insurance, what do you think the insurance company would do if someone used your personal ladder and was injured? Your leaving yourself open for a huge lawsuit.


----------



## mattsilkwood

i dont think a man should have to supply anything more than handtools.
asking a man to supply ladders and drillbits thats just crazy.

i personally use my own power tools by choice, i know exactally where they are and i know they are in good shape, and the company will replace anything that wears out. i think the only company tools that are on my truck is a gator but like i said thats my choice, not everyone is a major toolaholic like me.


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## JohnJ0906

mikeh32 said:


> im a low voltage electrician. and yeah, they made us have our own ladders.


I would think that a contractor would want to supply ladders, because of the safety factor.

Someone will show up with some rickety old thing that grandpaw gave him, and when it collapses, OSHA would probably go after the EC.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> You must be under the assumption that every employer will pay you the exact same wage. This is not the case in the real world. Some ECs pay their help more to defray the cost they impose on them by requiring them to supply more tools. They believe the employee will treat the tools better if they pay for them themselves.


I think it's more likely you're under the assumption that an employer requiring the employee provide things like ladders and power tools WILL automatically pay higher to recompensate that employee, proportional to the employee's added tool expense. And the fact of the matter is an employer who is cheap with the tools is probably cheap on the material and the payroll as well.


----------



## LGLS

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, heaven forbid that some guy would have the amition and willingness to excel beyond his "brothers". Brothers who have decided to hold him back, it would seem.
> 
> In much the same way that classroom education is often geared toward teaching the dumbest kid in the room, it seems that some of these union policies are geared toward the least motivated guy in a given group.


This is one way to look at the issue, but it really isn't accurate. Ambition is one thing, knocking down conditions is another. Supplying your own power tools to the contractor is not ambitious, it's being a suck-up and it's basically a bribe from the employee to the contractor to hold him in higher regard.

Employees are hired for and should excel via their talent, not their supply of poweertools or willingness to suck up.

Now, that said, over the years I have amassed a plethora of power and time-saving tools provided by an employer, which I sometimes employ in the course of my work. Speed wrenches, Lazer levels, DeWalts screwguns, milwakee sawzalls, impact wrenches, hammergrills, some Hilti stuff, full ratchett sets, etc... All of which were assigned to make whatever task I was doing more productive and with a specific provisio "Keep this with YOU, not in the company toolbox." None of these tools were ever requested to be returned and none were returned. I kept them with me, even after the layoff, as instructed. 

Our contract SPECIFICALLY says we must employ the use of modern advancements, powertools, and time-saving methods as to be competitive. There are still some members whit th old country-club attitute, (or just basic ballbusters) who will "suggest" that I am working too fast by using a sawzall to cut pipe or a speedwrench to tighten bolts, but whenever that happens I remind them that MY position is that this is 2009, not 1969 and that the local does not have 99% marketshare anymore, when that attitude was prevelant. I point out the contract chapter and verse and leave it at that. If you want to charge me brother, see the steward and do it, otherwise, I'll take your statement under advisement and leave it at that.


----------



## LGLS

electricalperson said:


> i supply all my tools. power tools included. i have a hole hawg, magnum drill, cordless sawzall, megger, amprobe and other meters. i even supply torque wrenches, cutters and every hand tool ill ever need. i dont mind it i would rather use my own tools than somebody elses abused tools. only thing i dont like to supply is sawzall blades and drill bits. i used to supply my own nail eaters but i dont use them that much anymore. we have the option of using the bosses tools but i would rather use mine.
> 
> i understand how some bosses wont supply power tools. the workers seem to beat them more than there own and dont care if they loose them. if i had a company i would require my guys to have a cordless tool kit. at least a cordless sawzall and drill


I'd like to know where you're from, that employees would abuse power tools? 

Christ, when a hydraulic KO set on a 200 man job with 15 gangboxes is missing a single 1/2" KO die it's like the Hope Diamond went missing...


----------



## LGLS

MDShunk said:


> Did you grow up in the Yukon territory? I'm trying to figure out where you've been at that you've never heard of a RotoSplit? I think it's been out since what, the 1970's?


Not just that, but also been reinvented, twice. Once for the sissor-like clamping action instead of resetting the setscrew each time, and then again when they added that hump on the handle so you wouldn't scrape your knuckles bare. Also added the knobby handle that stores spare blades...


----------



## LGLS

Jeff000 said:


> In 1970 I was negative 13 years old.....
> I have been on the job 2 years now, almost 100% commercial, and work with LOTS of armored cable. I have never seen nor heard of a rotosplit. And I always wonder the tools at the suppliers when I am waiting.
> Watching the video, I do not think its faster or easier then other methods. And I am sure its not a cheap tool.


Jeff, it's not expensive. Go get yourself one and you will NEVER use the bend-and-cut or hacksaw method again.


----------



## Jeff000

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Jeff, it's not expensive. Go get yourself one and you will NEVER use the bend-and-cut or hacksaw method again.


I have to say, I was at HD today, and really looked, and I found one greenlee rotosplit, it was for small bx, maybe up to 10/3. 60 bucks. 
It wasn't scissor action either it had the set screw. It was dusty and in behind the crappy emt greenlee pipe cutter things. I almost bought it just to try out, but for the next week before school I am just working with 250mcm and larger. But I might ask around and see if I can find one somewhere else to give it a try. 



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is one way to look at the issue, but it really isn't accurate. Ambition is one thing, knocking down conditions is another. Supplying your own power tools to the contractor is not ambitious, it's being a suck-up and it's basically a bribe from the employee to the contractor to hold him in higher regard.
> 
> Employees are hired for and should excel via their talent, not their supply of poweertools or willingness to suck up.


I don't see how its Stuck up. And you're not supplying to the contractor, you are supplying to yourself to get the job done easier. 
I don't know about you, but I sure don't want arthritis at 30 from spinning a screw driver instead of using my lightweight fast and simple drill. Or from using my channel locks instead of a ratcheting wrench... etc. 
Work smart, not hard. 
I have no problem having the proper tool for the job on hand, Most tools I have from other things anyways. Won a $1000 gift card to Canadian Tire a year and a half ago at some little league draw and used it to buy all kinds of great tools. Even a couple I have yet to use.


----------



## busymnky

Colorado- nonunion; apprentices need bags, hand tools and cordless drill minimum.
Jmen generally have their own ko's, hole saws, fishsticks, cordless sets.
Companies typically provide ladders, benders, power tools, hydraulic ko's.
Companies replace bits & blades that you wear out. There's no set rule though- everyone's got their own deal.
I wouldn't trust a borrowed or communal tester, all my other gear is broke in just right- so I don't loan or borrow.


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## JohnJ0906

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Now, that said, over the years I have amassed a plethora of power and time-saving tools provided by an employer, which I sometimes employ in the course of my work. Speed wrenches, Lazer levels, DeWalts screwguns, milwakee sawzalls, impact wrenches, hammergrills, some Hilti stuff, full ratchett sets, etc... All of which were assigned to make whatever task I was doing more productive and with a specific provisio "Keep this with YOU, not in the company toolbox." None of these tools were ever requested to be returned and none were returned. I kept them with me, even after the layoff, as instructed.
> 
> .


So you stole them.

You are saying that it is acceptable to keep someone else's property.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I think it's more likely you're under the assumption that an employer requiring the employee provide things like ladders and power tools WILL automatically pay higher to recompensate that employee, proportional to the employee's added tool expense. And the fact of the matter is an employer who is cheap with the tools is probably cheap on the material and the payroll as well.


I guess you dont' understand the word _*SOME*_.


----------



## drsparky

JohnJ0906 said:


> So you stole them.
> 
> You are saying that it is acceptable to keep someone else's property.


Pretty nasty thing to say when you don't understand something.
I have had company owners tell me to order drills and other tools for the crew, assign one to each and they should take it home after the project is over. The cost for maintaining, warehousing, shipping and storage vs. less lost time while waiting for and looking for a tools can be significant.
Anyone who has managed a fleet of vehicle knows that pool vehicle cost you more in the long run than assigning them to individuals. Same with “pool” tools, they get beat up and disappear. Around here it costs about $60 an hour to have a journeymen walk around a job site looking for a tool, that adds up quick, now if you are spending $10,000 dollars a day on a small crane and they are waiting for a hole to be drilled the cost of a Hilti is inconsequential.
In a mom & pop business, yes a missing tool can hurt, but on a 2 year $1,500,000 project keeping the tools on site and well maintained will save money in the long run.


----------



## JohnJ0906

drsparky said:


> Pretty nasty thing to say when you don't understand something.
> I have had company owners tell me to order drills and other tools for the crew, assign one to each and they should take it home after the project is over. The cost for maintaining, warehousing, shipping and storage vs. less lost time while waiting for and looking for a tools can be significant.
> Anyone who has managed a fleet of vehicle knows that pool vehicle cost you more in the long run than assigning them to individuals. Same with “pool” tools, they get beat up and disappear. Around here it costs about $60 an hour to have a journeymen walk around a job site looking for a tool, that adds up quick, now if you are spending $10,000 dollars a day on a small crane and they are waiting for a hole to be drilled the cost of a Hilti is inconsequential.
> In a mom & pop business, yes a missing tool can hurt, but on a 2 year $1,500,000 project keeping the tools on site and well maintained will save money in the long run.


What don't I understand?

It certainly seems as if he didn't return property that didn't belong to him.
When I leave a company I turn in any tools, equipment, cell phone/chargers, etc. To keep them is stealing. Nothing more or less.
I do understand that it is much easier to assign something to an individual, there is one person responsible for it.


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## JohnJ0906

Friday will be my last day with my present employer. There is a van parked in front of my house that belongs to him. What is the difference between not turning a tool in and not turning that van in? (besides the $ value)

The answer: none.


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## drsparky

JohnJ0906 said:


> Friday will be my last day with my present employer. There is a van parked in front of my house that belongs to him. What is the difference between not turning a tool in and not turning that van in? (besides the $ value)
> 
> The answer: none.


It is up to the owner. A former employer did give away the old vans and trucks that cost too much to repair. 

Look at the BIG picture. :jester:

Lets look at a single line item; a 14.4v Dewalt drill; cost $100. On job site 10; investment $1000. Real value after two years hard use; $250.

Now think of the cost to drag them back to the office (could be hundreds of miles or more) then warehouse them. Don’t forget to keep an accurate inventory for they are assets, the tax man will not let you depreciated them without an attorney, accountant, 50 pages of forms. So what have you saved? 

Smart and honest business practice is to put tool costs in the price of the bid, purchase the tools, use them on the job, then write them of when the job is complete. Rewarding your employees for a job well done is a no cost bonus. 

Remember some of us work on different size/type of projects and there are many aspects that of business that apply in one area that do not apply to everyone’s particular experiences.


----------



## LGLS

drsparky said:


> Pretty nasty thing to say when you don't understand something.
> I have had company owners tell me to order drills and other tools for the crew, assign one to each and they should take it home after the project is over. The cost for maintaining, warehousing, shipping and storage vs. less lost time while waiting for and looking for a tools can be significant.
> Anyone who has managed a fleet of vehicle knows that pool vehicle cost you more in the long run than assigning them to individuals. Same with “pool” tools, they get beat up and disappear. Around here it costs about $60 an hour to have a journeymen walk around a job site looking for a tool, that adds up quick, now if you are spending $10,000 dollars a day on a small crane and they are waiting for a hole to be drilled the cost of a Hilti is inconsequential.
> In a mom & pop business, yes a missing tool can hurt, but on a 2 year $1,500,000 project keeping the tools on site and well maintained will save money in the long run.


Thank you for stating this situation so clearly. I tried but the words just didn't come out right...

Some people have never been on jobsites where you pick up a brass in the AM and you're number 827... if your detail requires a hammerdrill and a laser, you will wait in line for up to an hour for the locker pup to assign you one. So if a contractor or his General foreman or straw boss orders a tool specifcally for your use, it IS with the understanding that it is your parting gift for keeping it on the jobsite and being productive with it until your time has come...

Some people would CRINGE at the mass of material, from 1900 / 4 & 11/16 boxes and covers to FS boxes, condulits, partial spools of wire, still-decent extention cords, fixtures eliminated due to project change orders, boxes of hardware screws, washers, double expansion shields, thunderbolts, etc that are literally SHOVELED into a dumpster at the close of a project, because it is cheaper than packing, shipping and warehousing that stuff until the next big one...


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## drsparky

Yes it seams like a waste throwing all that new electrical stuff away. I have had scrape yards bring roll off dumpsters to the job site for our leftover "good stuff" like that. They provide the dumpster for free so I don't pay to have it hauled away.


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## Jeff000

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Some people would CRINGE at the mass of material, from 1900 / 4 & 11/16 boxes and covers to FS boxes, condulits, partial spools of wire, still-decent extention cords, fixtures eliminated due to project change orders, boxes of hardware screws, washers, double expansion shields, thunderbolts, etc that are literally SHOVELED into a dumpster at the close of a project, because it is cheaper than packing, shipping and warehousing that stuff until the next big one...


Bingo!
Just a couple weeks ago we got a huge trailer of crap from another job site. 
Things went into 2 piles, good for use on this job, and trash. if its questionable its trash. Took 2 of us 3 days to empty the 52' foot trailer. 
I tossed probably 30 rolls of brand new RJ6, simply because we are not using it on this site, and the boss didn't want to store it. 
Most guys took a roll home though. And I don't know how many part rolls of wire I tossed, if the roll was damage or seemed light it was in the trash. 50m+ rolls of NM 6/3 al. etc etc. Lots we put into the scrap metal bin, but still. And some guys took some of the wire home. But in general the boss doesnt like letting guys take trash material home when there is more then a few guys on site, someone always feels shorted and complains ruining it for the rest.
The only stuff we kept that we couldn't use where a few high bay MH lights.

The labor in moving it 3 or 4 times far outweighs the cost of most items. 

The company provides hammer drills and stuff like that, but you are required to have a 12v+ drill of your own, they found in the past guys didn't take as good care of cordless drills when they were the companies, got to the point where when a new drill came out and someone had it then all of a sudden all the older model drills would "fall of the ladder" that week.


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## JohnJ0906

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Thank you for stating this situation so clearly. I tried but the words just didn't come out right...
> 
> Some people have never been on jobsites where you pick up a brass in the AM and you're number 827... if your detail requires a hammerdrill and a laser, you will wait in line for up to an hour for the locker pup to assign you one. So if a contractor or his General foreman or straw boss orders a tool specifcally for your use, it IS with the understanding that it is your parting gift for keeping it on the jobsite and being productive with it until your time has come...
> 
> .


If I misinterpreted what you wrote, then I do apologize.
Any situation I have been in, an assigned piece of equipment is to be returned, not kept.


----------



## MDShunk

JohnJ0906 said:


> If I misinterpreted what you wrote, then I do apologize.
> Any situation I have been in, an assigned piece of equipment is to be returned, not kept.


Same here. Giving away tools at the end of a job does seem strange, but I can sorta see how cordless drills have become somewhat of a disposable item. Seems to me, though, that a company big enough to give away tools would have a tool crib attendant who would want that stuff back anyhow... if for no other reason but to scarf repair parts off the busted tools to keep others in service. I dunno. Sounds really dumb, to me. I think the current economic situation is really starting to sort out the zombie companies who formerly got away with doing dumb things, and is forcing them to mend their wasteful ways or close up.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Some people would CRINGE at the mass of material, from 1900 / 4 & 11/16 boxes and covers to FS boxes, condulits, partial spools of wire, still-decent extention cords, fixtures eliminated due to project change orders, boxes of hardware screws, washers, double expansion shields, thunderbolts, etc that are literally SHOVELED into a dumpster at the close of a project, because it is cheaper than packing, shipping and warehousing that stuff until the next big one...



In my area, construction dumpsters are not just taken to a landfill and emptied out. They are taken to sorting facilities where every last piece of recyclable and reusable material is take out of the load and sold for scrap, or whatever commodity value the material has. So, dumpsters like the ones you describe are a bonanza for the recycling company. Even scrap drywall gets recycled.


----------



## LGLS

MDShunk said:


> Same here. Giving away tools at the end of a job does seem strange, but I can sorta see how cordless drills have become somewhat of a disposable item. Seems to me, though, that a company big enough to give away tools would have a tool crib attendant who would want that stuff back anyhow... if for no other reason but to scarf repair parts off the busted tools to keep others in service. I dunno. Sounds really dumb, to me. I think the current economic situation is really starting to sort out the zombie companies who formerly got away with doing dumb things, and is forcing them to mend their wasteful ways or close up.


A journeyman costs $100.00 per hour in pay, fringes, and taxes. Scarfing parts off a Dewalt to get another running will take how long? I am not saying every contractor does this. Some demand the cardboard core from the old roll of tape before they'll give you a new roll of tape, but to me that's just spending a dollar to save a dime. 

I once asked for a case of Lutron dimmers just to see what would happen. They came. :thumbup: I sent them back of course.


----------



## LGLS

JohnJ0906 said:


> If I misinterpreted what you wrote, then I do apologize.
> Any situation I have been in, an assigned piece of equipment is to be returned, not kept.


No need to apologize...


----------



## MDShunk

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A journeyman costs $100.00 per hour in pay, fringes, and taxes. Scarfing parts off a Dewalt to get another running will take how long? .


I have yet to see any contractor who uses a journeyman for a tool crib attendant. The crib attendant's job, among other things, is to maintain the tools.

On a related note, I see now that HILTI will set up an on-the-job tool crib and staff it if the jobsite is big enough, and you just lease the tools for that particular job term.


----------



## drsparky

Now supply houses will set up a trailer at the site and you pay for what you consume.


----------



## randomkiller

JohnJ0906 said:


> If I misinterpreted what you wrote, then I do apologize.
> Any situation I have been in, an assigned piece of equipment is to be returned, not kept.


 
Several years back (3 contractors ago) I was given a half hour lecture about trashing @ 30 cubic yards of assorted unistrut that I wanted to bring back to the shop. At the end of another job for that same company I was asked if there was any one on the job that would buy the gang boxes so they didn't have to send a truck out to pick them up, they ended up being trashed. I have been in the same situation as mentioned for powertools and speciality handtools.


----------



## user4818

randomkiller said:


> Several years back (3 contractors ago) I was given a half hour lecture about trashing @ 30 cubic yards of assorted unistrut that I wanted to bring back to the shop. At the end of another job for that same company I was asked if there was any one on the job that would buy the gang boxes so they didn't have to send a truck out to pick them up, they ended up being trashed. I have been in the same situation as mentioned for powertools and speciality handtools.



Out of curiosity, what is the $$ value of these jobs? I would venture to say that giving away tools and gangboxes and trashing vast amounts of materials is unusual for anything but the largest of jobs.


----------



## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the $$ value of these jobs? I would venture to say that giving away tools and gangboxes and trashing vast amounts of materials is unusual for anything but the largest of jobs.


I'm wondering the same thing. The biggest job I've been on in my career was 40 million for the EC part, and we didn't trash stuff like described at the end. There was a lot of leftover, but the "normal" stuff got taken back to the shop and the weird stuff got sold to an electrical surplus dealer. A few things were left to the maintenance department of the site if it was something we thought might help them out of a midnight jam in the future.


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. The biggest job I've been on in my career was 40 million for the EC part, and we didn't trash stuff like described at the end. There was a lot of leftover, but the "normal" stuff got taken back to the shop and the weird stuff got sold to an electrical surplus dealer. A few things were left to the maintenance department of the site if it was something we thought might help them out of a midnight jam in the future.



Right. Any big shop is going to have a warehouse guy who doesn't make journeyman pay to take care of that stuff anyway, at least in my experience. As for union shops, I know nothing of how they handle things. Apparently tool freebies and dumpsters full of material is par for the course. :blink:


----------



## randomkiller

Peter D said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the $$ value of these jobs? I would venture to say that giving away tools and gangboxes and trashing vast amounts of materials is unusual for anything but the largest of jobs.


 
The strut was on a power plant job, no idea on the total contract. The gangboxes where on smaller jobs in Manhattan, maybe in the 500k range. It does happen on much smaller jobs with tools. When the contractor that I originally was talking about was bought out by a large company the owner told most of the foremen (myself included) to take their trucks home and bring them in empty the following day.


----------



## LGLS

MDShunk said:


> I have yet to see any contractor who uses a journeyman for a tool crib attendant. The crib attendant's job, among other things, is to maintain the tools.


We call him the locker pup, and he's typically an elderly Journeyman counting the days until retirement. There could be 2,3 or even 4 depending on the size and scope of the project. An apprentice could be assigned for some of the heavy lifting, like taking a supply house delivery, but generally, locker pup is a journeyman's job not an apprentice. Apprentices are better working out on the floors LEARNING how to properly install electrical work. 



> On a related note, I see now that HILTI will set up an on-the-job tool crib and staff it if the jobsite is big enough, and you just lease the tools for that particular job term.


The closest we come to that is, on larger jobs and some of the bigger shop yards a guy pulls up with a sedan sporting out of state plates and a trunk full of powertools and socks and gloves really cheap... :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the $$ value of these jobs? I would venture to say that giving away tools and gangboxes and trashing vast amounts of materials is unusual for anything but the largest of jobs.


Some of these larger jobs (and some not so large) the contractor doesn't even have a warehouse, and never takes a project or employs anyone until they score a big one. Then they buy everything new, man up from the hall, do the job, and leave it all behind, take the money and run. You'll never hear about that company again until another big one is scored.


----------



## MDShunk

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> We call him the locker pup, and he's typically an elderly Journeyman counting the days until retirement. There could be 2,3 or even 4 depending on the size and scope of the project. An apprentice could be assigned for some of the heavy lifting, like taking a supply house delivery, but generally, locker pup is a journeyman's job not an apprentice. Apprentices are better working out on the floors LEARNING how to properly install electrical work.


That's a ridiculous waste of labor. Put that guy to work and get someone doing the tool crib job that can be paid what that job's worth... clerk's wages.


----------



## Jeff000

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> We call him the locker pup, and he's typically an elderly Journeyman counting the days until retirement. There could be 2,3 or even 4 depending on the size and scope of the project. An apprentice could be assigned for some of the heavy lifting, like taking a supply house delivery, but generally, locker pup is a journeyman's job not an apprentice. Apprentices are better working out on the floors LEARNING how to properly install electrical work.


4 JM for 8 hours a day, 32 man hours a day, 320 man hours in 2 weeks. or $9600 every 2 weeks if they are making 30 an hour. 
Even on a HUGE job thats a huge waste of money to keep track of 45 cent rolls of tape, and lets say even 20k worth of tools, the tools wouldn't go missing fast enough to make it worth while. 
Its cheaper to just let them last as long as they do and then replace them when they go missing or get broke, same with material, its cheaper to buy more then keep guys on top of warehousing it. 

Shop I work for doesnt have a warehouse to really speak of, they have enough room to store the greenlee job boxes, and the larger powertools/benders and thats about it. Everything else is trashed or sent to another site to be stored until its broken or used, or in most cases till it gets to a foreman thats tired of seeing it.


----------



## randomkiller

Jeff000 said:


> 4 JM for 8 hours a day, 32 man hours a day, 320 man hours in 2 weeks. or $9600 every 2 weeks if they are making 30 an hour.
> Even on a HUGE job thats a huge waste of money to keep track of 45 cent rolls of tape, and lets say even 20k worth of tools, the tools wouldn't go missing fast enough to make it worth while.
> Its cheaper to just let them last as long as they do and then replace them when they go missing or get broke, same with material, its cheaper to buy more then keep guys on top of warehousing it.
> 
> Shop I work for doesnt have a warehouse to really speak of, they have enough room to store the greenlee job boxes, and the larger powertools/benders and thats about it. Everything else is trashed or sent to another site to be stored until its broken or used, or in most cases till it gets to a foreman thats tired of seeing it.


 
Somehow I get the feeling you don't understand the scope or size of a job that has 4 guys in the toolcrib.


----------



## paul d.

and whats wrong with a senior jw with 35-40 yrs in the trade getting a little tool crib time???


----------



## bobelectric

Pipefitters need to show up with
A. stickrule
B. pumppliers (channelocks).


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Some of these larger jobs (and some not so large) the contractor doesn't even have a warehouse, and never takes a project or employs anyone until they score a big one. Then they buy everything new, man up from the hall, do the job, and leave it all behind, take the money and run. You'll never hear about that company again until another big one is scored.



You really need to walk me through this...they leave _all_ tools behind that you need for a large job? Table benders? Smart benders? Large hammer drills? Core drills? Etc etc.. Surely not.


----------



## drsparky

How big is a big job? When I was an apprentice I had to find all the rental lifts our company had on the site, my list had 66 lifts. We were not the biggest contractor on the site. On the average day there were about 3000 construction workers. Trailer city had about 100 temporary office trailers. I know of two jobs right now that have 4000 and 5000 workers each. I remember wining check pool and was disappointed that only 60 people played and it as only worth $300. When the job was going big time it was worth $2000 and that was only electricians.


----------



## Jeff000

randomkiller said:


> Somehow I get the feeling you don't understand the scope or size of a job that has 4 guys in the toolcrib.


Your right. 
The largest I have worked was ~100 electricians. 
My point is still the same though.


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## robnj772

OH YEAH??? WELL MY TOOL IS BIGGER THEN YOUR TOOL!!!!

It's pretty funny how you guys can take a simple tool list thread and turn it into a tool and job size contest


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## LGLS

MDShunk said:


> That's a ridiculous waste of labor. Put that guy to work and get someone doing the tool crib job that can be paid what that job's worth... clerk's wages.


And that would be your short-sighted solution to making more money, for you, right now, without taking any other factors into consideration. Now, if you did put a clerk there, I go and ask for 24 dimmers, 24 4 & 11/16 boxes, 24 3/8'' raised covers, and 2000' of #12-2 NM cable and 14 GE 20a GFCI breakers.

I go off and do my side job for free because you didn't think enough to put a real electrician in the position. Or even a "high priced" 4th year apprentice. 

Then along comes a plumber, and asks for 400' of 4/0 copper...


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## LGLS

Jeff000 said:


> 4 JM for 8 hours a day, 32 man hours a day, 320 man hours in 2 weeks. or $9600 every 2 weeks if they are making 30 an hour.


4 JW @ 100.00 an hour. X 35 week. = $14,000.00
(I only been on one job with 4 locker pups, 1 is more common, 2 is extraordinary. 3 or 4 is "the next big one.")



> Even on a HUGE job thats a huge waste of money to keep track of 45 cent rolls of tape, and lets say even 20k worth of tools, the tools wouldn't go missing fast enough to make it worth while.


Generally, only large specialized tools are kept by the locker pup on a huge job - like core drills for the straw bosses that don't regularily require such things, or electric jackhammers, etc. Otherwise, each straw or subforman's group keeps their own tool crib for the regular, common things like sawzalls, drills, KO punches. 

The piping teams will keep their own benders, 555's, etc.



> Its cheaper to just let them last as long as they do and then replace them when they go missing or get broke, same with material, its cheaper to buy more then keep guys on top of warehousing it.


Have you ever been on a jobsite where the shapeup floor is like Grand Central Station full of different trades and so many people that there has to be a hardhat color code just know who is who?



> Shop I work for doesnt have a warehouse to really speak of, they have enough room to store the greenlee job boxes, and the larger powertools/benders and thats about it. Everything else is trashed or sent to another site to be stored until its broken or used, or in most cases till it gets to a foreman thats tired of seeing it.


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## LGLS

Peter D said:


> You really need to walk me through this...they leave _all_ tools behind that you need for a large job? Table benders? Smart benders? Large hammer drills? Core drills? Etc etc.. Surely not.


The really big stuff is leased. But nobody leases a sawzall and definately not cordless tools or batteries. 

Ladders are cut up and either thrown out or burned, too...


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## LGLS

paul d. said:


> and whats wrong with a senior jw with 35-40 yrs in the trade getting a little tool crib time???


I can't wait for the answer to this, though I can predict exactly what it's going to be...

In the merit or nonunion sector, an aged electrician SHOULD, (if he was any good) become a foreman or a PM or and estimator or own his own shop by then... 

Otherwise, it's chew 'em up and spit 'em out...


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## BDB

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ladders are cut up and either thrown out or burned, too...


I try and stay out of these kinds of discussions, but after reading this, I had to chime in and just say......If this does really happen, then that is one dumb contractor


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## JohnJ0906

BDB said:


> I try and stay out of these kinds of discussions, but after reading this, I had to chime in and just say......If this does really happen, then that is one dumb contractor


Actually, instead of inspecting carefully each and every one, then transporting and storing, just buy new, and be sure the ladders are safe. I could imagine the ladders take a beating, and this way would lessen the chance of a bad ladder injuring someone.


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## BDB

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> In the merit or nonunion sector, an aged electrician SHOULD, (if he was any good) become a foreman or a PM or and estimator or own his own shop by then...


I had a guy like this on a job I had last year, he could not run pipe, could not trim out, did not know how to read plans and did not know the color code.I tried for 3 weeks to find something he could do, but finally had to send him down the road.


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## drsparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The really big stuff is leased. But nobody leases a sawzall and definately not cordless tools or batteries.
> 
> Ladders are cut up and either thrown out or burned, too...


I never throw away a complete ladder. If a ladder is broken/unsafe, bent runges, worn out hinges, loose rivets, splits I use to cut them up with a portaband, but I found a funner way. Ever drive down a 24' extention ladder with a Lull? It makes a neat sound. I then scoop it up and drop it in the dumpster. People would come out of the woodwork saying "I could use that at home" I would tell them "not with the company painted on it"


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## brian john

I worked on a job with 300+ electricians one 6 month apprentice did an excellent job of tool and material management. This ain't brain surgery it takes some organizational skills.


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## 480sparky

drsparky said:


> I never throw away a complete ladder. If a ladder is broken/unsafe, bent runges, worn out hinges, loose rivets, splits I use to cut them up with a portaband, but I found a funner way. Ever drive down a 24' extention ladder with a Lull? It makes a neat sound. I then scoop it up and drop it in the dumpster. People would come out of the woodwork saying "I could use that at home" I would tell them "not with the company painted on it"


 
Years ago, I started working on a job for a new (to me) company. I got up on a (fiberglass) ladder the first day, and noticed the legs were split. I refused to use that ladder any more.

That afternoon, the owner (yes, the big cheese) stopped by the job site, and approached me as the foreman told him I was refusing to use that ladder. As I stood there explaining the legs are split, and it could dump me off at any moment, he told me to use it, but just be careful. "Only if the ladder is totally unusable will we not use it."

I paused, standing there with my cordless sawzall sporting a brand new Lenox 18TPI blade, when it hit me. I turned around, cut through 4 steps of the ladder, turned around and said, "There, now it's totally unusable. Get me another one."


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## LGLS

brian john said:


> I worked on a job with 300+ electricians one 6 month apprentice did an excellent job of tool and material management. This ain't brain surgery it takes some organizational skills.


What electrical skills did that apprentice learn during that time?


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## LGLS

480sparky said:


> Years ago, I started working on a job for a new (to me) company. I got up on a (fiberglass) ladder the first day, and noticed the legs were split. I refused to use that ladder any more.
> 
> That afternoon, the owner (yes, the big cheese) stopped by the job site, and approached me as the foreman told him I was refusing to use that ladder. As I stood there explaining the legs are split, and it could dump me off at any moment, he told me to use it, but just be careful. "Only if the ladder is totally unusable will we not use it."
> 
> I paused, standing there with my cordless sawzall sporting a brand new Lenox 18TPI blade, when it hit me. I turned around, cut through 4 steps of the ladder, turned around and said, "There, now it's totally unusable. Get me another one."


Sparky you shoulda waited until he turned the corner. Split one leg and toss the ladder down, and lay on the ground screaming in agony. "I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS! I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS!!!"

THEN it will hit him "OH MY GOD WHAT DID I JUST DO?" 

Or at least tell HIM to climb the ladder...


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## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What electrical skills did that apprentice learn during that time?


 
He learned something most electricians are missing, management skills and it must have worked, he is not the highest ranking electrician in the Washington DC area with the federal government. he is in charge of the complete electrical distribution for one of the worlds largest buildings.


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## Jeff000

480sparky said:


> I paused, standing there with my cordless sawzall sporting a brand new Lenox 18TPI blade, when it hit me. I turned around, cut through 4 steps of the ladder, turned around and said, "There, now it's totally unusable. Get me another one."


What did he reply to that? 

There is one fiberglass ladder at work that has a 2x4 screwed into the one leg because it split. But only one guy uses that one because he likes it the best. Normally if they are split they are cut up and tossed.


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## 480sparky

Jeff000 said:


> What did he reply to that? .........


He said he could fire me.

I said I could call OSHA.


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## MechanicalDVR

Jeff000 said:


> What did he reply to that?
> 
> There is one fiberglass ladder at work that has a 2x4 screwed into the one leg because it split. But only one guy uses that one because he likes it the best. Normally if they are split they are cut up and tossed.


 
Sounds like he's playing the lottery, when it finally breaks and he is injured, then sues the shop he may end up owning the place.


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## Rockyd

Got a kick out of this thread. If a contractor required me to provide all power tools, and *ladders*, I'd moonlight every chance I got. Everytime I get the shaft, can return it times ten! What goes around, comes around.

Fortunately, most companies worth a hoot provide all tools needed. What do they get in return fom me? I don't moonlight, I don't abuse their vehicle, and I recommend their name for jobs.

I can tell by the ebb and flow of the discussion between union, and non-union, that some have never witnessed the activities of a "big job" Worked of Toyota in Kentucky - 100 acres indoors, 500 electricians on the day shift), and the liabilties that make no sense to be protected from. What works at one level, can't even be perceived at another level.

It all depends on where you are, and where you want to go. You can only be abused as much as you let them abuse you.


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## manchestersparky

I'm not sure where all these tool give aways,gang box give aways, trashing tools,and trailers of materials are. I can say I do not think it is in Maryland.
I've been on some of the large projects, and worked side by side with some of the largest contractors in the area,both union and non union. I have never seen this sort of thing. What I did see was companies packing there tools and gang boxes up, packing up material, and loading it on stack body trucks. Moving it to their shop or the next project. 
Yeah some materials get tossed and of course broken tools and ladders go to the dumpster.

As far as those roto splits go - in my opinion you can keep them. I bought one years ago, used it for about a year. Tossed it in my tool box and went back to the Klein BX snips. Easier to carry in the tool pouch (or pocket)
Lighter too. I can use them just as fast or faster then that roto split.


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## user5941

480sparky said:


> If I ever start hiring people, here's the list that will be in thier EHs:
> 
> *No experience:*
> Tool belt
> Tool pouch
> Parts pouch
> Wire strippers
> Linesman pliers
> Diagonal cutting pliers
> Needle nose pliers
> Straight screwdriver
> #2 Phillips screwdriver
> Hammer
> 25ft. tape measure
> 9" magnetic torpedo level
> 
> *3 Months:*
> 12" Arc-joint (ChannelLock) pliers
> 12" hacksaw
> Plug-in GFCI receptacle tester
> Nut drivers ¼" and 5/16"
> Retractable utility knife
> Drywall saw
> 
> *6 Months:*
> Nut driver 3/8"
> Conduit reamer screwdriver
> Allen wrench sets Fractional & Metric
> Cordless drill w/ 2 batteries 12V minimum
> 
> *1 Year:*
> Large wire cutters
> Balance of nut driver set
> Current edition of NEC
> Calculator
> 1-1¼" KO set
> File set
> 
> *2 Years:*
> Volt/Ohm Meter
> VB2 and VB10 Lenox UniBits
> 
> *3 Years:*
> 100’ steel measuring tape
> 1" Concrete chisel
> Amp meter
> 
> *4 Years:*
> Cordless Reciprocating Saw
> 
> *5 Years:*
> Journeyman card
> 
> 
> 
> This is _my_ list, not yours. Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't have. I know many will cry and harp about being required to buy power tools. But what I intend to pay my help will cover it.


 6 year : 
Customers of his own


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## 480sparky

rewire said:


> 6 year :
> Customers of his own


Not with just a JW card.


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## piette

rewire said:


> 6 year :
> Customers of his own


Year seven he buys his own van, gets a masters license and tells every customer of yours while on jobs for you how he is going off on his own and will beat your prices easily.

Can't see why anyone would ever want to encourage there guys to be only two steps short of there own van like that. Just creating more problems for yourself down the road is all

Jeff


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## 480sparky

piette said:


> Year seven he buys his own van, gets a masters license and tells every customer of yours while on jobs for you how he is going off on his own and will beat your prices easily.
> 
> Can't see why anyone would ever want to encourage there guys to be only two steps short of there own van like that. Just creating more problems for yourself down the road is all
> 
> Jeff


If you think tools make an EC, you're sadly mistaken.


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## paul_arc

I remember the last EC I worked for required an extensive tool list, I dont remember everything that was on there but I know there was 2" ko set, hole hawg, rotary hammer, pipe threader, and 1 1/4" bender. I told them that I carry the other benders every day but the 1 1/4" stays at home unless I know im using it.
The company was the biggest joke that I have ever worked for, basically the PM and forman had no idea what they were doing, after about 6 months of working for them I went straight to the boss and let him know what was going on at the job and how we havent gone a day for the last few months without redoing crap and he basically laughed at me saying that the job is going fine.
The next week the forman pissed me off and I walked off the job stopped at the shop to drop off the radio and the PM asked why I quit, I told him you guys are a joke and dont know what your doing.
Im friends with all the guys working there and a few months later one of the guys said they lost the job by $50k

sorry for the rambling I didnt know I typed that much:whistling2:


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## randomkiller

480sparky said:


> If you think tools make an EC, you're sadly mistaken.


 
Tools and equipment enable a guy that works for you to at least take some work from you and may give him the incentive to be more independent and do more side work and go on his own and turn into your competition. Don't be naive. Were you born a contractor or became one?


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## Rockyd

Manchestersparky,

Places where you see money and tooling pissed away - Places like the Exxon oil spill in Alaska. The company in their ignorance, figured if they pissed away two billion on the clean-up, all their problems would go away.

One evening on the evening shift, one of the guys suggested I go steall one of the new skiffs in the parking lot. I turned down the offer, even after much cajoling that it was perfectly okay. Told him I didn't operate that way.

Next day, they took the boats to a car crusher and flattened them. it was all about burning the cash before September's "drop dead deadline". So it all depends on what is motivating the activity. 

Reality, and money, sometimes have nothing to do with the issue, sometimes it's all about the perception.


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## LGLS

manchestersparky said:


> I'm not sure where all these tool give aways,gang box give aways, trashing tools,and trailers of materials are. I can say I do not think it is in Maryland.
> I've been on some of the large projects, and worked side by side with some of the largest contractors in the area,both union and non union. I have never seen this sort of thing. What I did see was companies packing there tools and gang boxes up, packing up material, and loading it on stack body trucks. Moving it to their shop or the next project.
> Yeah some materials get tossed and of course broken tools and ladders go to the dumpster.


What would a company do, when that company only exists when it wins an insanely expensive contract? Imagine a businessman, a licensed electrician, puts bids in for public works projects and has only an office, oftentimes it's a well-fitted job trailor... and will only win 1 out of every 1-200 projects he bids on. He has practically zero overhead when there's no project in the works because there's no warehouse, no fleet of trucks, no rent, etc.

Many larger tools can be leased, but often the rent on a hydraulic bender or a 12' ladder is more than it's purchase price after a year or so. And when you are located near a big city, that is surrounded by prohbitively expensive commercial and industrial property, further surrounded by expensive boroughs and the suburbs, and you encounter many smaller citys before you even get close to an area where warehouse lease space "normalizes," you can understand the benifit of NOT paying for storage space because 1/2 a case of 1900 boxes isn't worth it. 



> As far as those roto splits go - in my opinion you can keep them. I bought one years ago, used it for about a year. Tossed it in my tool box and went back to the Klein BX snips. Easier to carry in the tool pouch (or pocket)
> Lighter too. I can use them just as fast or faster then that roto split.


I agree the bx snips are a better tool, but I think the rotosplit is less expensive. The reason I believe that is because neither appear on our required tool list - bx/greenfield will be cut with a hacksaw. So contractors purchase these speed-enhancing tools and give them out like halloween candy, because we're required to utilize every time saving method possible. Like rachet sets, speed wrenches and box wrenches. At the job's end, nobody is looking to collect the giveaways.


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## LGLS

BDB said:


> I try and stay out of these kinds of discussions, but after reading this, I had to chime in and just say......If this does really happen, then that is one dumb contractor


It's not dumb. Do you know what a ladder looks like after it's been on a hi-rise deck job for a year? You couldn't give them away.


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## LGLS

brian john said:


> He learned something most electricians are missing, management skills and it must have worked, he is *not* the highest ranking electrician in the Washington DC area with the federal government. he is in charge of the complete electrical distribution for one of the worlds largest buildings.


Assuming you meant to say "he is *now* the highest ranking electrician..." he ended up in civil service. A contractor here would never want a low paid employee guarding his stock and tools, unless the job uses brass which is a time killer. In addition, apprentices need as much hands-on training installing electrical work, not acting as warehouse clerks. 

In the past, there have been some apprentices who skated through the program and spent more job time going for coffee and taking material deliveries, and chauffering the boss around that when they turnout they were not Journeymen, and the industry has suffered for it. We learned the hard way we cannot shelter and protect like in the old days. 

Right now we're even running a pipebending mentoring program because too many contractors only put their "pipe men" on the work, and do not assign them an apprentice, or assign one long enough to pick up the skills.


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## MDShunk

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A contractor here would never want a low paid employee guarding his stock and tools, unless the job uses brass which is a time killer. .


By using brass, I assume you mean the tool check tags? I always thought that was a pretty slick, low-tech, good system. What's such a time killer about it? Give in one of your tags and you get the tool.


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## LGLS

To give out the brass, the line forms here... Here you go Joe you're #12. NEXT... Put 80 guys through that... then collect brass in the afternoon, line forms there, and they all have to be out at 2:30. Of course in some situations brass is a no brainer...


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## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Assuming you meant to say "he is *now* the highest ranking electrician..." .


 
I did mean to say now bad typing, poor proof reading.


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