# Gfci protection for residential kitchen exhaust hood



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I got red tagged for not gfci protecting this.
There was no particular code listed in the violation. 
It just stated "Kitchen exhaust hood needs gfci protection.

It's a kitchen hood , _tower style_/120 volt cord and plug 
connected /receptacle is behind tower.
(Note: It's not readily accessible - I mention this cause 
of what it states in shaded area prior to 210.8 (A)

I pressed for a code reference and a couple days went by and I got
this response....2017 NEC 210.8 (A) (7)

I think this is a bad call on AHJ's part. Tower is a fixed barrier , 
not piercing wall , floor , ceiling , passing thru a door etc...

Am I wrong?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

The not piercing part only applies to taking the measurement. If you can get within 6 feet by going around obstacles, it needs to be GFCI protected.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

That sound crazy. Was it within 6 feet of a sink? Was there a facet above the stove for filling pots? I really don't do much residential work but I know that even the refer requires a GFCI now days. 

Receptacles behind clothes washers, clothes dryers and other appliances are not exempt from the GFCI requirement. Item 7 in 210.8 I guess a range hood is an appliance.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I wish I could help more. Would you think in any way it could be considered readily accessible? Or would that even matter? I hate to see you fold and put in a GFCI if it's not required. The reason I ask about "readily accessible" is I think I read something about that. I distinctly remember that it said "readily accessible or NOT" was required to have a GFCI in Residential kitchen. Maybe 2020 code or 17 .... or dark web. Hopefully you get more intelligent answers from other members. With actual NEC reference .


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I can't think of any receptacle in a "residential kitchen" that is not require to be GFCI protected. Maybe a Wall clock ..? They are really going over board if they include range hoods. If the manufacture specs it I would do it for sure but I just have not personally ever installed a hood on a GFCI. I could be a big time code breaker and not know it. lol


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> I can't think of any receptacle in a "residential kitchen" that is not require to be GFCI protected other than the hood. Wall clock ..? exempt ? They are really going over board.



The only required gfcis in a residential kitchen are the countertops and any within 6’ of a sink.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> The only required gfcis in a residential kitchen are the countertops and any within 6’ of a sink.


And dishwashers.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

joebanana said:


> And dishwashers.


 Yes it does.

When I think of gfci in kitchens , I always think receptacles. 

How do you normally protect those if they’re hard wired, A breaker?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> When I think of gfci in kitchens , I always think receptacles.
> 
> How do you normally protect those if they’re hard wired, A breaker?


Yeah, a brkr. that way you can cover the disposal too. We used to split wire (half hot) the D/W, Disp. recep. but now GFI's make that difficult.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> The not piercing part only applies to taking the measurement. If you can get within 6 feet by going around obstacles, it needs to be GFCI protected.


The receptacle is behind the tower next to the hvac vent. There's a stainless
steel cover that hides the vent and tower , so HO will probably never even know the outlet receptacle is there let alone use it.

To me...gfci protection is for receptacle outlets that people use for general use , such as those on counter tops. Equipment that needs ground fault protection is usually the 20 mili amp protection afforded by GFP's but that's a whole different
category of ground fault protection.

I'm losing site of the intent of the code on this one and the way the article
in this code section reads , (6' within a sink) leaves it wide open so I can see 
why they are saying this , but it makes no sense once youy ad in the
whole reason for gfci's.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Easy said:


> That sound crazy. Was it within 6 feet of a sink? Was there a facet above the stove for filling pots? I really don't do much residential work but I know that even the refer requires a GFCI now days.
> 
> Receptacles behind clothes washers, clothes dryers and other appliances are not exempt from the GFCI requirement. Item 7 in 210.8 I guess a range hood is an appliance.


Your right. All Laundry room outlet receptacles (210.8 (A) (10) in 
dwelling units are now required to have gfci protection and 
210.12 (A) arc fault protection....so since 210.10 (C) (3) states that 
the branch circuit has to be 20 amp and provided for just that room , 
I just use the duel function breaker for the laundry.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

joebanana said:


> Yeah, a brkr. that way you can cover the disposal too. We used to split wire (half hot) the D/W, Disp. recep. but now GFI's make that difficult.


This wasn't a big deal to change. I had the hood and range on a dedicated 15 amp arc fault breaker , so I swapped it out for a duel function. I just have never ever gfci protected the gas range & hood before (in 23 years).


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You don’t need to GFCI protect a refrigerator receptacle close to a sink. This is the same idea. It’s not accessible under normal circumstances.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> Yes this is in 210.8 (D)....but Ohio wrote an amendment to our
> electrical code that eliminates this article as "not required".
> ...


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> You don’t need to GFCI protect a refrigerator receptacle close to a sink. This is the same idea. It’s not accessible under normal circumstances.


neither is the hood receptacle

one would have to get a 4' ladder and get up there , dismantle the
hood tower to even see the receptacle back there. It's silliness


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> To me...gfci protection is for receptacle outlets that people use for general use , such as those on counter tops..


 It’s not for just being able to use to plug things in, it’s to help protect you if the equipment were to fault.

If you don’t have gfci protection and the fan were to fault, you could energize the enclosure and get shocked by touching it.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Awg-Dawg said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it does.
> ...


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> You don’t need to GFCI protect a refrigerator receptacle close to a sink. This is the same idea. It’s not accessible under normal circumstances.


 You do in the states, It being non accessible doesn’t really play a part in whether it gets gfci protected or not.

I take it you dont have to in Canada?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Awg-Dawg said:


> You do in the states, It being non accessible doesn’t really play a part in whether it gets gfci protected or not.
> 
> I take it you dont have to in Canada?


No..


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Awg-Dawg said:


> It’s not for just being able to use to plug things in, it’s to help protect you if the equipment were to fault.
> 
> If you don’t have gfci protection and the fan were to fault, you could energize the enclosure and get shocked by touching it.


Yup, and being in the kitchen means that there’s a better chance of you having wet hands, standing on moist floor, or touching wet and/or grounded services. Just like in the bathroom and laundry.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

lighterup said:


> I got red tagged....


Congratulations! You're the only electrician on this forum to ever fail an inspection.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Yup, and being in the kitchen means that there’s a better chance of you having wet hands, standing on moist floor, or touching wet and/or grounded services. Just like in the bathroom and laundry.


I agree. Just like in a garage. All receptacles have to be GFCI. We spend more time in a kitchen than we do in a garage and we are more likely to be bare footed in a kitchen than a garage. We spill more water in a kitchen than a garage.

As for the hood being GFCI protected it seems to be a bit much. If the metal surface of a hood became energized and didn't trip out a normal breaker that would only happen if someone forgot to ground it.

I guess it's best "in this case" to just please the inspector as it's actually safer to install a GFCI than not. 

I have only wired one home in the past 10 years so I am no expert on this but some of the items that were required to be on GFCI that I missed and had to change were as follows. All 220 volt pool pumps, refer, disposal and outside fans. I already had the dishwasher on a GFCI. It was spelled out in code that I could actually decipher. 

2014 code required GFCI protection for dishwashers but maybe there was a change to that requirement in the 2017 code. 210.8(D) Kitchen Dishwasher branch circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling units.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

lighterup said:


> This wasn't a big deal to change. I had the hood and range on a dedicated 15 amp arc fault breaker , so I swapped it out for a duel function. I just have never ever gfci protected the gas range & hood before (in 23 years).


I've never seen that either, but I haven't done any residential for years. The inspector dinged you for the hood not being on a GFI, but not the range, or, the hood was the issue at hand? Now, I can see the D/W being GFI protected(because of the water element), but the range, as long as it's not within 6' of the sink, I'd argue "fixed in place".


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

A dishwasher, disposal,refer and hood that is cord connected can simply be unplugged to be serviced. I personally know of one case where a person was killed while working on a dishwasher. It was my ex-wife's father. It happened before I met her so I don't have all the details. He was probably laying in water when he was working on an energized circuit. A dishwasher has quit a few components and would most likely need to be on to trouble shoot. A range hood or a disposal is simple either a bad motor or loose connection and would not need to be plugged in to diagnose the problem.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

All these appliances are already grounded. Frames and all non-current carrying metal parts. What possible added safety could GFI protection afford?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

210.8 clearly states that if the receptacle is behind a drawer or fixed panel then 210.8 does not apply, No gfci is needed IMO



> For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
> from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
> path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
> would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
> barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 210.8 clearly states that if the receptacle is behind a drawer or fixed panel then 210.8 does not apply, No gfci is needed IMO


 Seems an appliance garage would fit your description?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 210.8 clearly states that if the receptacle is behind a drawer or fixed panel then 210.8 does not apply, No gfci is needed IMO


That's not how I read it. This seems to say that you have to measure around barriers to determine if something is within 6 ft. Let's say we ignored a 2 ft. wall with a receptacle on one side and sink 5 feet away on the other side. In a straight line, the receptacle is within 6 ft. But the code here is saying to measure around the wall, making it 7 ft.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Congratulations! You're the only electrician on this forum to ever fail an inspection.


I don't fail them because I don't get permits. :shifty:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> I don't fail them because I don't get permits. :shifty:


Sinner.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Sinner.


I don't agree.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> It’s not for just being able to use to plug things in, *it’s to help protect you if the equipment were to fault.*
> 
> If you don’t have gfci protection and the fan were to fault, you could energize the enclosure and get shocked by touching it.


Wouldn't this then fall under the category of "Ground fault equipment protection"? (you are now talking about "equipment fault" right?

There's a different GFEP circuit breaker for equipment called 
Ground fault equipment protection. 

I see your point , but , why then wouldn't a 240 volt clothes dryer in a laundry require gfci protection from using a 240 volt gfci circuit breaker if this were the intent of the code?


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> Wouldn't this then fall under the category of "Ground fault equipment protection"? (you are now talking about "equipment fault" right?
> 
> There's a different GFEP circuit breaker for equipment called
> Ground fault equipment protection.
> ...


Ground fault protection of equipment uses a higher threshold because there is some leakage, I don’t know this I’m only assuming.

The 2020 code is addressing this and even AC units outside are going to be ground fault protected.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Get ready for 2020 gfci requirements


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Also keep in mind if the exhaust hood is a plug in then it has to be on a dedicated circuit. 
NEC422.16.B.4. 
2017 clarifies the GFCI requirements for residential kitchen receptacles that are under the sink or not counter receptacles.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Ground fault protection of equipment uses a higher threshold because there is some leakage, I don’t know this I’m only assuming.
> 
> *The 2020 code is addressing this and even AC units outside are going to be ground fault protecte*d.


ohhhh dawwwwwg


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Ground fault protection of equipment uses a higher threshold because there is some leakage, I don’t know this I’m only assuming.
> 
> *The 2020 code is addressing this and even AC units outside are going to be ground fault protected.*


They must have needed a duffel bag to hold the cash needed to push those code requirements through. No envelope under the table that time.


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## RodDriver (Nov 9, 2019)

NEC doesn't require one there. But it's a lot cheaper than arguing with the inspector.


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