# Proper switch leg colors



## 480sparky

jculber said:


> ........Does such a thing exist?.........


Not in the NEC. Job specs, personal preference, designer's choice may dictate a specific color, but The Book is silent on the issue.

*My personal* choices are:

120/240/208 V
Black/Red/Blue for hot, white for neutral, Brown/orange/Yellow for switch legs. Purple for travellers.
277/480 V:
Brown/orange/Yellow for hot, grey for neutral, Black/Red/Blue switch legs. Purple for travellers.


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## jculber

geez 480....do you live on this website? Im grateful for your quick responses but man...seems like everytime I post something on here, you answer within 10 minutes.

By the way, Im not complaining, just stating an observation.


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## LGLS

I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


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## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


No reason not to......


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## micromind

I use a slight variation of 480s choice. 

For 277, brown, orange, yellow are hots, and purple is the switch leg. For travelers, I use the corresponding low voltage color. If the hot is brown, I'll use black, orange-red. I also use these colors for more than one switch leg. 

For 120, it's just the opposite. Black, red, blue are hots, purple is the switch leg, and the corresponding high voltage color is travelers or more than one switch leg. 

In the rare event of more than one switch leg and 3 ways, I pull two purples, and tape one of them. 

It seems confusing here, but looking at a switch box or a fixture, it makes a lot of sense. 

Rob


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## Jeff000

277 is wierd.... Brown Orange Yellow?
347 is Orange Brown Yellow. lol

Anyways, never worked with 277. But for 347 We always just use the circuit color of that switch and just label the switch leg. Same for 120 when we are pulling single conductors. 
Sometimes I wish we had purple and pink for travelers and SL though, some boxes are pretty full and not every one labels as well as they should.


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## JohnJ0906

480sparky said:


> Not in the NEC. Job specs, personal preference, designer's choice may dictate a specific color, but The Book is silent on the issue.


Or local amendments. We have them here.


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## Bob Badger

If you choose to use Brown, Orange, Yellow for your phase colors then you have to use BOY for the switch legs as well, including travelers.

If you choose to use Black, Red Blue for your phase colors then you have to use Black, Red Blue for the switch legs as well, including travelers.

You must identify the phase of the ungrounded conductor branch circuit for it's entire length.

2008 NEC 210.5(C)


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## paul d.

i just use the NEXT color for the sw leg; that is, if the hot is BLACK, then sw leg is RED. same for BOY/ 277V lighting. just make sure everybody on the job does the same.


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## william1978

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


I guess to each his own. I'm not aware of anybody doing this around here.


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> If you choose to use Brown, Orange, Yellow for your phase colors then you have to use BOY for the switch legs as well, including travelers.
> 
> If you choose to use Black, Red Blue for your phase colors then you have to use Black, Red Blue for the switch legs as well, including travelers.
> 
> You must identify the phase of the ungrounded conductor branch circuit for it's entire length.
> 
> 2008 NEC 210.5(C)


 
Care to explain? I don't see any colors listed in that section.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> Care to explain? I don't see any colors listed in that section.


I am not saying you have to choose any particular color but that section requires the ungrounded phase conductors to be identified by phase.

If you have chosen Black as the identifier for phase A and the switch leg is on phase A your going to have use black for that switch leg and / or travelers. 

This section has been getting changed a lot and for a while you did not have to identify by phase.


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## eddy current

Jeff000 said:


> 277 is wierd.... Brown Orange Yellow?
> *347 is Orange Brown Yellow.* lol


 
In Canada (Ontario) we must use red, black, blue regardless of voltage CEC 4-036(3)(c) 
I always thought "BOY or OBY" was only used in the US?

Switch legs using NM or BX CEC 4-034(2)
Can't find a CDN code for switch legs colours in pipe yet......


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> I am not saying you have to choose any particular color but that section requires the ungrounded phase conductors to be identified by phase.
> 
> If you have chosen Black as the identifier for phase A and the switch leg is on phase A your going to have use black for that switch leg and / or travelers.
> 
> This section has been getting changed a lot and for a while you did not have to identify by phase.


 
I don't read it that way at all. If I have, let's say a red wire, where does it say in that section that it has to be red all the way through?


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## nick

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


Well mostly all jobs like commercial we use black/ red/ blue and switch legs brown/ orange /yellow . Or opposite brown /black orange /red yellow /blue 

Now some jobs the specs say you will use color for color and make the hot and the switch leg by identification with a label or marking on wire . 

Some government or local county jobs like to spec phase colors like purple is the phase b to be that color . Why we dont know its just there pick we do . But i agree with 480 a normal electrician thats been in commercial in the united states for years has used high to low or low to high unless your company has lots of money to buy special wire or labels on a normal project .

So what colors is yours what do you use if you dont use these colors ?Best to ya


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> I don't read it that way at all. If I have, let's say a red wire, where does it say in that section that it has to be red all the way through?


It says you must identify the branch circuit conductor by phase.


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> It says you must identify the branch circuit conductor by phase.


And I do... b/r/b until it goes through a switch, contactor, photocell, etc., then it changes to b/o/y (or vice-versa for 277/480).


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> And I do... b/r/b until it goes through a switch, contactor, photocell, etc., then it changes to b/o/y (or vice-versa for 277/480).



IMO you can no longer do that, if you chose Orange as phase B for the 480 system you must use that same color for the entire branch circuit. I see no relief for 'switch legs' in 210.5(C)


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> IMO you can no longer do that, if you chose Orange as phase B for the 480 system you must use that same color for the entire branch circuit. I see no relief for 'switch legs' in 210.5(C)


210.5(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points. The means of identification *shall be permitted* to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means. The method utilized for conductors originating within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment.

90.5(B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms _*shall be permitted*_ or _shall not be required_.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> The means of identification *shall be permitted to* be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means.
> 
> 90.5(B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms _shall be permitted_ or _shall not be required_.


So what method are you using? 

Are you telling me that in a building with both 208 and 480 you use an assortment of at least 12 colors for ungrounded conductors? 

You are also posting this info at the panel?


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> So what method are you using?


120/240/208 V:
Black/Red/Blue for hot, white for neutral, Brown/orange/Yellow for switch legs. Purple for travellers.
277/480 V:
Brown/orange/Yellow for hot, grey for neutral, Black/Red/Blue switch legs. Purple for travellers. 



Bob Badger said:


> Are you telling me that in a building with both 208 and 480 you use an assortment of at least 12 colors for ungrounded conductors?


Just 7.



Bob Badger said:


> You are also posting this info at the panel?


Yes.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> Just 7.


In my opinion under the 2008 it can not be done with seven.


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> In my opinion under the 2008 it can not be done with seven.


Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Again.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


I am not agreeing to that yet. 

I have a building with 480 and 208 I am using the following 6 colors for the ungrounded conductors

*208Y/120*

Phase A Black

Phase B Red 

Phase C Blue

*480Y/277*

Phase A Brown

Phase B Orange

Phase C Yellow


What color would you use for a phase B 277 volt switch leg?

What color would you use for a phase B 120 volt switch leg?

How about a phase C 120 volt switch leg?


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## 480sparky

OK, I'll humor you because I know where this is going.



Bob Badger said:


> What color would you use for a phase B 277 volt switch leg?


Red


Bob Badger said:


> What color would you use for a phase B 120 volt switch leg?


Orange


Bob Badger said:


> How about a phase C 120 volt switch leg?


Yellow

you're going to tell me I can't use those colors because I've already used them for something else.


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## Jeff000

eddy current said:


> In Canada (Ontario) we must use red, black, blue regardless of voltage CEC 4-036(3)(c)
> I always thought "BOY or OBY" was only used in the US?
> 
> Switch legs using NM or BX CEC 4-034(2)
> Can't find a CDN code for switch legs colours in pipe yet......


Hmm, I am sure I read something about voltage over 240 being a different color and not to be used in living space of residential somewhere. 
Trust me I am looking, I'll let you know when I find it.


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## eddy current

Jeff000 said:


> Hmm, I am sure I read something about voltage over 240 being a different color and *not to be used in living space of residential *somewhere.
> Trust me I am looking, I'll let you know when I find it.


I've done service work in a residential building that has 347volt baseboard heating! They use heat relays in the heater so the voltage at the thermostat is 24v. 
I thought there was a code for voltage not above 300v at a switch/thermostat in a residence? Can't find it.....


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## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I am not agreeing to that yet.
> 
> I have a building with 480 and 208 I am using the following 6 colors for the ungrounded conductors
> 
> *208Y/120*
> 
> Phase A Black
> 
> Phase B Red
> 
> Phase C Blue
> 
> *480Y/277*
> 
> Phase A Brown
> 
> Phase B Orange
> 
> Phase C Yellow
> 
> 
> What color would you use for a phase B 277 volt switch leg?
> 
> *Orange from a different manufacturer.*
> 
> What color would you use for a phase B 120 volt switch leg?
> 
> *Red from a different manufacturer.*
> 
> How about a phase C 120 volt switch leg?


*Blue from a different manufacturer.*


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## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Blue from a different manufacturer.*



That would do it or simply mark a blue with tape or a Brady.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> you're going to tell me I can't use those colors because I've already used them for something else.



Obviously and IMO that is clearly a code violation.


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## eddy current

Just a thought......imagine how easy it would be if the colours of conductors had to be the same everywhere?


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Obviously and IMO that is clearly a code violation.


You keep saying it violates 210.5(C), but you don't say where it says so.

So, we're still disagreeing. Ready to agree to that?


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## nick

Bob Badger said:


> In my opinion under the 2008 it can not be done with seven.


 thats your opinion but most electricians use the low to high colors or high to low colors , 

The code book does not state what you are saying thats just your nec view on how you read into it .

Do you do new construction work or whats your electrical scope because we do lots of work and thats what we use .Our voltage is 120 /208 /480/ 277 / were in the usa in fact i seen it in the specs the same colors recommended by the engineer not the maintance engineer the electrical engineer . So my thinking is you can use it and any color you want to use is your choice only color nec code wise is white or green in my book . comments


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## te12co2w

Bob Badger said:


> Obviously and IMO that is clearly a code violation.


 I also do not see that to be an obvious code violation. Another code article that might be interpreted more than one way. There seem to be one or two like that.


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> You keep saying it violates 210.5(C), but you don't say where it says so.


In my own opinion by using the same color to identify ungrounded conductors of two different voltage systems you have not actually identified either conductor by system as required by 210.5(C).

210.5(C) requires each ungrounded conductor to be identified by both phase and system. I can not understand how you are meeting that requirement by using the same color twice.



> So, we're still disagreeing. Ready to agree to that?


I will agree that we are disagreeing. 

I will not agree that the code section is vague or unclear.


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## Bob Badger

te12co2w said:


> I also do not see that to be an obvious code violation.


Can I ask if you have actually just looked at 2008 NEC 210.5(C) or are you going from memory?


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## Bob Badger

nick said:


> but most electricians use the low to high colors or high to low colors ,


I know many do, there are many things that are done that do not necessarily meet the requirements of the NEC. 



> The code book does not state what you are saying thats just your nec


Are you basing that on the 2008 NEC when the rules for remarking have been re-written since the 2005?


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## Dude Man

I'm with Bob Badger on this one. The inspector around my parts says that same color its entire length: including travelers and switch legs.


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## te12co2w

Bob Badger said:


> Can I ask if you have actually just looked at 2008 NEC 210.5(C) or are you going from memory?


 Well, yes, I read it through just before replying. I just read it again. "the means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape," etc. I see no wording that specifies or requires certain procedures or colors. To my mind, if you can identify the switch leg in any manner and be consistent and document that procedure, then there is no violation.


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## Jeff000

eddy current said:


> I've done service work in a residential building that has 347volt baseboard heating! They use heat relays in the heater so the voltage at the thermostat is 24v.
> I thought there was a code for voltage not above 300v at a switch/thermostat in a residence? Can't find it.....


Yes that is the code, I know I have seen it, but I can not recall where. 



Bob Badger said:


> *210.5(C) requires each ungrounded conductor to be identified by both phase and system*.
> 
> I can not understand how you are meeting that requirement by using the same color twice.


To me that means you must use the same color, and then label it. 
If you use a different color then it is no longer identified by phase.


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> In my own opinion by using the same color to identify ungrounded conductors of two different voltage systems you have not actually identified either conductor by system as required by 210.5(C).
> 
> 210.5(C) requires each ungrounded conductor to be identified by both phase and system. I can not understand how you are meeting that requirement by using the same color twice.
> 
> 
> 
> I will agree that we are disagreeing.
> 
> I will not agree that the code section is vague or unclear.


My method is allowed if I post it on the panels. Last sentence of 210.5(C) requires me to anyway.

When you run MC cable, do you order all the possible color combinations? Black/white, black/gray, red/white, red/gray, blue/white, blue/gray, black/red/white, black/red/gray, black/red/blue/white, black/red/blue/gray, red/white, red/gray, red/blue/white, red/blue gray, black/blue/white, black/blue/gray, brown/white, brown/gray, orange/white, orange/gray, yellow/white, yellow/gray, brown/orange/white, brown/orange/gray, orange/yellow/white, orange/yellow/gray, brown/yellow/white, brown/yellow/gray, brown/orange/yellow/white, brown/orange/yellow/gray, black/brown/white, black/brown/gray, black/orange/white, black/orange/grey, black/yellow/white, black/yellow/gray, red/brown/white, red/brown/gray, red/orange/white, red/yellow/gray, blue/brown/white, blue/orange/gray, blue/yellow/white, blue/yellow/gray..........my head hurts now.

If fixture wires are to comply with 210.5(C), how many different fixture whips are you going to order?


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> My method is allowed if I post it on the panels. Last sentence of 210.5(C) requires me to anyway.


Well if I open a box and see an orange conductor how do I know which system it is? 



> When you run MC cable, do you order all the possible color combinations?


What do _you do _on MC jobs with home runs, you do as most of us do you use the normal colors in the cable, but when pulling a pipe system we use the 'right colors' 

That said I have personally been on two large jobs where we did that and I had some brown / gray MC in my hand just recently (left over from the shop from other jobs) 

Honestly I think it was worse then just using regular MC as toward the end you know people would cheat because we were out of the right color.


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## 480sparky

You're not converting me, and I'm not ever going to convert you.




To that end:


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## Mike_586

eddy current said:


> I've done service work in a residential building that has 347volt baseboard heating! They use heat relays in the heater so the voltage at the thermostat is 24v.
> I thought there was a code for voltage not above 300v at a switch/thermostat in a residence? Can't find it.....


Better send you back to trade school :bangin:
*2-106 Circuit voltage-to-ground -- Dwelling units*
(took me about 5 minutes to find it... in the last 30 seconds I smartened up and looked at the index :jester

By the way the 09 code book is out now, picked it up Friday, and goes into effect in May.

Lots of little changes...


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## RePhase277

480/277: Brown, Purple, Yellow, Gray
208/120: Black, Red, Blue, White 

For switch legs, I pull what ever color the hot is, but identify it with tape or label. For travelers, I use pink.


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## eddy current

Jeff000 said:


> Hmm, I am sure I read something about voltage over 240 being a different color and not to be used in living space of residential somewhere.
> Trust me I am looking, I'll let you know when I find it.


So CEC 2-106 covers the circuits above 150v to ground in a residence (thanks Mike 586) but still no code for colours changing depending on voltage.
In Canada, it's Red, Black, Blue........always


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## 480sparky

InPhase277 said:


> .......... For travelers, I use pink.


I avoid pink. Always looks like red. I order pink, they call it pink, they label it as pink, they list pink on the ship ticket, but







.... it's red!


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## blueheels2

Here in Raleigh it has to be the same color all the way. Say we use MC w/ blk and white as colors for a 277v light whip on phase B( orange) we must tape the conductors orange and gray. I believe the whole state is like this and this is how I interpret the NEC. However I admit I am not a genius..


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## paul d.

480sparky said:


> I avoid pink. Always looks like red. I order pink, they call it pink, they label it as pink, they list pink on the ship ticket, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... it's red!


 we got some pink # 12 in a few weeks ago. we ordered red. ticket said red. REEL said red. but it was pink. :001_huh:


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> You're not converting me, and I'm not ever going to convert you.



Can you tell me what part of the 210.5(C) I am misunderstanding? :001_huh:

A friend emailed me this from the IAEI analysis of changes. I see no mention of exceptions for switch legs or travelers.


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Can you tell me what part of the 210.5(C) I am misunderstanding? :001_huh:
> 
> A friend emailed me this from the IAEI analysis of changes. I see no mention of exceptions for switch legs or travelers.


 
What part of post 44 don't you understand?


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## LGLS

blueheels2 said:


> Here in Raleigh it has to be the same color all the way. Say we use MC w/ blk and white as colors for a 277v light whip on phase B( orange) we must tape the conductors orange and gray. I believe the whole state is like this and this is how I interpret the NEC. However I admit I am not a genius..





480sparky said:


> I avoid pink. Always looks like red. I order pink, they call it pink, they label it as pink, they list pink on the ship ticket, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... it's red!


I think I found the problem...

*COLORBLIND ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTORS, INC.*

*Now serving Rome, Ga. & Iowa!*​


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## MarkyMark

Is a switch leg a branch circuit conductor?

Is a traveler a branch circuit conductor?

Is a light whip a branch circuit conductor?

I think that is what the question boils down to. If the answer is yes to any one of these, then the wire must be marked at all terminations, connections, and splice joints per 210.5

In NC, the local AHJ's have interpreted all three cases above as being branch circuit conductors, and enforce marking tape on all conductors to signify phase. The conductor does not have to be the correct color all the way - just marked at junction boxes - usually with tape. I don't know what code you could site to require the color to be solid for the entire length of the conductor.

I think you could make a case that a light whip is not a branch circuit conductor, but I don't see a case for a traveler or switch leg not being one.


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## brian john

Pink? Where were you San Fran CA.?


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## nick

Well lets add to the confusion thur the years weve done a few state prisons and each project they had if i remember correctly in the 1600 specs switch legs are to match phase color and be identified by that phase color . 
And also be marked with label or marking tag to distinguish . But on all other projects we use opposite high low low high colors . take care


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## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> What part of post 44 don't you understand?



Well I was going to let it drop but someone took the 
time to scan and email that IAEI info so I felt I should post it.

If you want to bail out so be it, but remember me when an inspector bags you.:laughing:


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## nick

Bob Badger said:


> Well I was going to let it drop but someone took the
> time to scan and email that IAEI info so I felt I should post it.
> 
> If you want to bail out so be it, but remember me when an inspector bags you.:laughing:



Well we kinda read it heres what we see if you install a phase color chart on your panel front and also indicate and identify phase color of switchleg on chart than i see any color used . 

This will be like a label or establish a set color on project and so service or maintance people who dont pull wire everyday could tell what is what . Lets not limit our scope of color code to just one part of electrical theres others power cables high and low voltage and must be used to do our electrical work .

Have you ever read IEEE standard conductor identification the only color that cables have in electrical work is by example BLACK WHITE BLUE RED ORANGE GREEN meaning thats inside one cable so you can mix and match colors if its in the IEEE standards .

Lets look at that meaning that orange conductor in that cable can be used as a switchleg ?
Just looking at other electrical work some jobs like a power plant or industrial work its all cables there is no no.12 thhn or no. 10 thhn stranded or solid or 500 mcm conductors its all soft or metal cables like all wiring on project than color is established by the cable manufacture and spec/engineer / just to add more input i see other electrical work we do and how it effects our color code issues . Take care be safe


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## Jeff000

eddy current said:


> So CEC 2-106 covers the circuits above 150v to ground in a residence (thanks Mike 586) but still no code for colours changing depending on voltage.
> In Canada, it's Red, Black, Blue........always


Yes, and I know it specifically says Red Black Blue. But we use Orange Brown Yellow for 347/600 and never been called on it. I think its one of those trade standard things. Not sure why they dont change the rule to make 347/600 (or 277/408) OBY instead.



I don't have the new CEC book yet, start school Monday here and have been told they are using the 06 book till the September intake. After school I will get the new one though, just don't want to have it screw me up. lol.


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## kbsparky

How do you deal with the occasional process of balancing the phases, where you have to swap phases to balance the loads?

Seems like those areas with tight restrictions on color coding would require one to completely pull out the wires, and start over ....


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> ......If you want to bail out so be it, but remember me when an inspector bags you.:laughing:


There's a difference between bailing out because I don't think I'm right and bailing out because this is a case of the immovable object and the irresitable force.


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## Bob Badger

nick said:


> Have you ever read IEEE standard conductor identification the only color that cables have in electrical work is by example BLACK WHITE BLUE RED ORANGE GREEN meaning thats inside one cable so you can mix and match colors if its in the IEEE standards .


Why bring up cables?

As far as I know we are talking about pulling single conductors in raceways.


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## LGLS

kbsparky said:


> How do you deal with the occasional process of balancing the phases, where you have to swap phases to balance the loads?
> 
> Seems like those areas with tight restrictions on color coding would require one to completely pull out the wires, and start over ....


 
Here's my beef...

When has ANYBODY gone into a ceiling, opened a box, and depended on the wires and the colors to determine if that is an appropriate place to tap into conductors or a circuit to add something? 

It has NEVER happened in my life. 

It seems all this color coding "crap" is about leaving the installation in a state where some simpleton w/o any real electrical knowledge can just use a color code to add on to professional work. 

"Ok pink,( or purple, ) can't tap that it's a switchleg... Oh here's a brown, that's gotta be a live phase A... " But I need 120v, let me try that 1900 box over yonder..."


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## NevadaBoy

I'll typically use the same phase color with purple as travelers. 
I know a guy that wires a lot of local office building using striped wire. So say you would have an orange hot to the switch, and you'd have a orange w/white or black stripe up the lights. So if you open up a light box and you see a striped wire, you know it's a switch leg of the corresponding phase. Similar to having a green wire with a yellow stripe.


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## acmax

Bob Badger said:


> If you choose to use Brown, Orange, Yellow for your phase colors then you have to use BOY for the switch legs as well, including travelers.
> 
> If you choose to use Black, Red Blue for your phase colors then you have to use Black, Red Blue for the switch legs as well, including travelers.
> 
> You must identify the phase of the ungrounded conductor branch circuit for it's entire length.
> 
> 2008 NEC 210.5(C)


Thats what I was looking at when I started reading this post. Phase coloring all the way through. Combining B,R BL, with in a BOY circuit never seen it would never do it. Inspector would probable make a stink during the rough inspect.We always rotate the hr color next travelers then switch legs. Even when doing 2 gang inbore /outbore double 3 ways.


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## NevadaBoy

acmax said:


> Thats what I was looking at when I started reading this post. Phase coloring all the way through. Combining B,R BL, with in a BOY circuit never seen it would never do it. Inspector would probable make a stink during the rough inspect.We always rotate the hr color next travelers then switch legs. *Even when doing 2 gang inbore /outbore double 3 ways.*


 
I'm not familiar with this terminology. Care to explain?


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## 76nemo

brian john said:


> Pink? Where were you San Fran CA.?


 
Almost spit out my beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nick

Bob Badger said:


> Why bring up cables?
> 
> As far as I know we are talking about pulling single conductors in raceways.



http://books.google.com/books?id=Z4...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA18,M1 

Well most electrical contractors wiring up general spaces use mc because nobody today can bend pipe or wants too . we actually get south wire to make us switch leg colors in our mc but we do lots of business with them each year so it helps . Take care


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## I Conduit

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


Same here, that's a big no-no in my area, never mix boy colors with brb.:no:


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## LGLS

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I've never heard of this before. We never EVER mix blue/red/black with BOY colors.


I need to clarify this, it doesn't mean we never put conductors from 2 different voltage systems within the same raceway, I mean, that the b-r-b system never sees a B-O-Y colored conductor, and vice versa.


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## acmax

*Not just mindless work*



NevadaBoy said:


> I'm not familiar with this terminology. Care to explain?


2 x 4 double ballast 3 or 4 lamp fixture. 2 entrances to room, 2 gang with 2 3-ways in each box at each entrance. 277v ck5 is called for.There are 20 fixtures in the ceiling. 1 row of 5 fixtures also needs to be controlled by a OSW dimming switch. just thought I throw that in there too. Most new schools require them by the row of lights nearest the windows.


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## te12co2w

I recently attended my local IAEI chapter meeting and posed this question. My local inspector was there, along with some from different locales. My inspector was of the opinion that you should not mix colors of different systems. His reasoning was that there are plenty of other colors available. Out of 5 people answering questions it was pretty much split, I think one of them didn't get involved. Once the discussion got out into the body of people there, it became obvious that nothing would be resolved and the moderator called lunch. It seems that there is no way everyone will agree on this one. Another ahj call.


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## McClary’s Electrical

He's absolutely right,,,, you cannot change phase colors, whatever they may be, just becaust you hit a switch , or photocell, or whatever, it doesn't matter, same phase, same color


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## acmax

*budget busting*

Wiring today on most commercial projects seems to turn into a scavenger hunt. The cheapest available wire is slammed in and unless the GC spec's are being followed to a tee, nobody really cares.No code violation no problem.That's the standard I've seen the past few years.And there's really nothing wrong with that.


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## Benaround

Which system would be safer, the one with the same colors for one voltage

or the one with all the colors for both of the voltages. Why would the CMP's

even write this code if mixing all the colors and voltages together was going

to be OK ??

Answer me that!


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## Jaga

black,red,blue=120/240 brown,orange,yellow=277/480 2 different systems, why are you mixing colors? They are colorcoded to tell you what system they are.2008 code requires identification from start to finish and anything in between.


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## ohmdoctor

NEC 210.5 covers this question which directs you to 
200.6 for the grounded conductor (your neutral)
and 250.119 for your GEC
Also see 110.15 for a delta stinger


To sum it up 

For a ground wire you may only use a bare wire, green, or green with a yellow tracer if your above #6awg you may use tape 

For a Neutral you may only use white or grey

and for a Delta stinger you may only use Orange

any other conductors may be what ever color you want

But industry standards are
Black,Red,Blue,White for 120/208V
Brown,Orange,Yellow,Grey 277/480V (BOY)

Although I have been called for using orange on a 480V system because of NEC 110.15 which states orange shall only be used as identification for a Delta Stinger. In that case I used purple per the inspector!


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## Mike in Canada

eddy current said:


> So CEC 2-106 covers the circuits above 150v to ground in a residence (thanks Mike 586) but still no code for colours changing depending on voltage.
> In Canada, it's Red, Black, Blue........always


 It must suck to have to stock that many colours down in the states. It's irritating enough having red, black, blue, white and green in different sizes in the van. To have brown, orange, purple, etc. etc. etc. as well? I'd have no room for tools!

Mike


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## JohnR

The only time we use Pink or Purple here, are when running Isolated ground circuits and Panels run off of UPS's.

Pink is from the UPS panel N being a gray with a pink stripe. 120V
Purple is only used on ISO circuits with a gray/pink stripe N 120V
Never used them for anything else.... well ok FA or motor controls, but thats it.


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## TOOL_5150

this thread is over a year old.


~matt


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## 480sparky

TOOL_5150 said:


> this thread is over a year old.
> 
> 
> ~matt



Making a statement, or complaining you missed the birthday party?:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc

jculber said:


> Every jobsite I have worked on so far has used 277v for its lighting circuits. For that we have used pink colored wire for the switchlegs and purple for travellers on 3 ways with pink being the switchleg. Just this last week I was working on a job where the lighting was 120v and was pulling wire for both power and lighting. Well, I grabbed a roll of pink and a couple rolls of purple for switch legs and travellers. After pulling in a couple of switches, the journeyman stopped me and told me that for 120v we use orange for the switchleg and made me re-pull all the pink I pulled in. That night in the hotel room I spent at least 3 hours looking in the code book trying to find anything that requires certain colors to identify the switch leg and the differences between 120v and 277v switch leg colors.
> 
> Does such a thing exist?
> 
> Thanks


 do the same as you, feed runs are blue, black , red, sw. legs and travelers are pink, purple, orange. That was definetly the personal preference of the foreman. It's great to see someone else on the same level.


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## voltz

...Now all they have to do is add a "210.5(D)" which would put in place a standardized color coding system

120/208v black, red, blue, 
277/480v Brown, orange, yellow
yea I know, it's a 'design issue,' in my view it lacks common sense not to


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## TOOL_5150

480sparky said:


> Making a statement, or complaining you missed the birthday party?:thumbup:


yes.

!matt


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## cbr

I know this thread is beyond old but found it when I was searching online. The good old switch leg debate never dies. I know you can run a white to the switch and feed light with black when running MC. 

But with 210.5(C)(1) it reads to me that you must maintain the color or other means used to identify the phase without change. "shall be identified by phase or line and system at *all termination, connection, and splice points*". If you open a panel and see that they are using B P Y for 277/480 you expect that means of color identification to be maintained. It just seems far safer to keep the same means of phasing all through the building. 

Got into it with a guy at the job site he was pulling 277 ckt 3 down to switch but coming back up with yellow as switch leg. Seeing as we had multiple ckts in the pipe we had several phase to phase faults. There needs to be a standard set as it seems everyone has their own way of doing it and inspectors are no different. I have seen several jobs were the inspector wanted the same means of phasing all the way through. But as of to date I have never had one tell me to pull all my switch legs out that match the hot in color+marked switch leg and pull in a blue or a red in its place. I always use the correct phase color as switch leg but marked it S3 for example (switch leg 3).


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## Amish Electrician

There's no official, or even 'trade practice,' that carrys much weight when it comes to color codes.

I also like using a different color for the travelers. Switch legs I'm not so worried about - but then, I prefer to not have the 'power' and 'switch' wires in the same boxes. Power box => switch boxes => fixture is my preferred layout. Since fixtures often come with whips, you're pretty much stuck with black for the switch leg anyway.

With the 'energy' codes often requiring two levels of lighting in commercial rooms, I like to use a different 'traveler' color for each switch. That way, I can easily change the lighting arrangement if the customer wishes.

Another variation is identifying travellers by the phase / leg they're on. In that circumstance, I'll associate purple with the blue phase and pink with the red. Gray, you'll remember, is a neutral color, so we can't use it. Maybe they'll come out with teal  .


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## cbr

I just cant see any reason to pull a different color for a switch leg, get you a book of letters and label it "S12" or something similar. NEC does not state that switch legs need to a different color or even labeled. But it does state that all ungrounded conductors must be identified by phase and system at every point. 

We can all agree that the switch leg is an ungrounded conductor, a connection/termination is made at the switch and light so that would fall under 210.5. If you are using B R B low and B P Y high those colors have already been used to identify a system and phase. So I just dont see how you could use blue for a 277v switch leg as blue is being used for low voltage C phase.


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## LightsOn81

I would be fired mixing 277 and 120 colors!

120/208/240 
Black red blue with the circuit number for hot leg then black red blue with a stripe of electric tape. if there are multiple switches then multiple stripes of tape.

277/480 is the same thing. 

Now for travelers, the supervisor picks at the beginning of the job and it's usually one phase color up. Ex. Circuit 1 would have red/orange travelers. 

One hospital job I worked it's was spec'd out that travelers were pulled in purple


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## manchestersparky

My jurisdiction has a code admendment that states that on 120/208/240 volt circuits you can only use Black,Red, Blue, White. For 277 / 480 volt circuits you must use Brown, Orange ,Yellow, Gray. 
No pinks, No purples, No mixing the colors between voltages


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## Grounded-B

Dude Man said:


> I'm with Bob Badger on this one. The inspector around my parts says that same color its entire length: including travelers and switch legs.


Some local inspectors (including a famous "Tosa one) required manufactured fixture whips to be the same color as the phase conductor. So we always ordered B.O.Y. whips and yanked out the unneeded conductors. Alot of scrap for the "safety meeting fund"


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## Voltech

Bob Badger said:


> Well if I open a box and see an orange conductor how do I know which system it is?



edit


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## Voltech

edit


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## local134gt

We just pipe our systems separately and mark the J-boxes with what voltage/circuit is inside. Switch leg colors vary but you can easily tell the voltage by the marking on the box or just look at the color of the grounded conductor, White=120v Gray=277v


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## cbr

It really seems that everyone does it different, but reading 210.5 it clearly states that you must identify for phase and system at every connection. If you were to pull a different color for your switch leg you are no longer identifying for phase system only switch leg. I still dont see why so many go to such great lengths to identify the switch leg such as pulling a totally different color wire. All you have to do is flag it with some tape or use some wire markers.


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## Delighted In Yahweh

I think the NECPlus says it nicely:

"The requirement in 210.5(C) to identify ungrounded branch-circuit conductors covers all branch-circuit configurations and is not applicable to only multiwire circuits. The identification requirement applies only to those premises that have more than one nominal voltage system supplying branch circuits (e.g., a 208Y/120-volt system and a 480Y/277-volt system) and requires that the conductors be identified by system and phase. Unlike the requirement of 200.6(D) for identifying the grounded conductors supplied from different voltage systems, application of this rule is not predicated on the different system conductors sharing a common raceway, cabinet, or enclosure. 
The method of identification can be unique to the premises, and although color coding is a popular method, other types of marking or tagging are acceptable alternatives. It is intended that whatever method of identification is used, *it be consistent throughout the premises*. To that end, the identification legend is required to be posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or other equipment from which branch circuits are supplied or it is permitted to be documented in an on-site manual, log, or other form of record that is readily available to service personnel. Where posted at electrical distribution equipment, the marking required by this section only has to describe the identification scheme for the ungrounded conductors supplied from that particular equipment. The basis for this requirement is to provide a higher level of safety for personnel working on premises electrical systems having ungrounded conductors supplied from multiple nominal voltage systems. 
Exhibit 210.3 shows an example of two different nominal voltage systems in a building. Each ungrounded system conductor is identified by color-coded marking tape. A label indicating the means of the identification is permanently located at each panelboard. 








Exhibit 210.3 Examples of accessible (ungrounded) phase conductors identified by marking tape at a junction or outlet location where the conductors will be spliced or terminated.


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## CraziFuzzy

Guess it's time to raise this topic from the grave. 

I do have another question that has come up more often as newer lighting systems are taking hold. How are guys typically worrying up 277v fixtures that use 0-10v dimmers?

I have always been in the 'dont mix' camp for BRB and OBY. I also don't mix neutral colors (wht vs gry). With 0-10V dimmers, you've now got the "industry standard" of purple and gray for the dimming signal, causing conflict with the gray neutral. Would you rather use a white for neutral from switch location to fixture, keeping the gray and purple for the control wires, or keep gray on both and just tag the low voltage wires?

It's even more confusing if you come across a building to be retrofitted that used purple for switched legs (I believe in keeping phase colors constant past switches etc, and if necessary, tagging switched legs and travellers).


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## MechanicalDVR

CraziFuzzy said:


> Guess it's time to raise this topic from the grave.
> 
> I do have another question that has come up more often as newer lighting systems are taking hold. How are guys typically worrying up 277v fixtures that use 0-10v dimmers?
> 
> I have always been in the 'dont mix' camp for BRB and OBY. I also don't mix neutral colors (wht vs gry). With 0-10V dimmers, you've now got the "industry standard" of purple and gray for the dimming signal, causing conflict with the gray neutral. Would you rather use a white for neutral from switch location to fixture, keeping the gray and purple for the control wires, or keep gray on both and just tag the low voltage wires?
> 
> It's even more confusing if you come across a building to be retrofitted that used purple for switched legs (I believe in keeping phase colors constant past switches etc, and if necessary, tagging switched legs and travellers).



First of all, welcome aboard @CraziFuzzy!

Secondly, rather than making this a 'Lazarus' thread why not just start a new one on your question?


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## CraziFuzzy

PHP:







MechanicalDVR said:


> First of all, welcome aboard @CraziFuzzy!
> 
> Secondly, rather than making this a 'Lazarus' thread why not just start a new one on your question?


Honestly, because a search on the good ol internet's brought me to this thread to begin with.


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## varmit

I always use whatever the phase color is for switch legs. An odd color, purple or pink is nice for travelers. this is unless there are specific specs or local rules calling for some other method.


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## B-Nabs

If I'm running it in pipe, I usually run the dimming wires as 2-conductor fire alarm cable, so there is never any confusion what's what. In cable I use the "luminary" cable that has 2 #12 conductors + ground and 2 #16 conductors (separately jacketed) all in one. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR

CraziFuzzy said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, because a search on the good ol internet's brought me to this thread to begin with.


Fair enough but it's a good enough topic to be it's own thread.


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## MechanicalDVR

B-Nabs said:


> If I'm running it in pipe, I usually run the dimming wires as 2-conductor fire alarm cable, so there is never any confusion what's what. In cable I use the "luminary" cable that has 2 #12 conductors + ground and 2 #16 conductors (separately jacketed) all in one.


I'm of the same thought with this.

Dimming wires don't need to be the same gauge or type as supply voltage, just the same insulation rating in a shared raceway.


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## Weasel

The only topic that the code book states about identifying is the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor. It says nothing about travelers. It is a personal choice


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## CraziFuzzy

B-Nabs said:


> If I'm running it in pipe, I usually run the dimming wires as 2-conductor fire alarm cable, so there is never any confusion what's what. In cable I use the "luminary" cable that has 2 #12 conductors + ground and 2 #16 conductors (separately jacketed) all in one.





MechanicalDVR said:


> I'm of the same thought with this.
> 
> Dimming wires don't need to be the same gauge or type as supply voltage, just the same insulation rating in a shared raceway.


I do like this idea. I only deal with retrofits, myself, so I'm not ever installing new armored cables (but I have seen the luminary whips that have the 18 gauge dimming wire included in the bundle).

What I have not seen readily available, is a simple 2 conductor cable with 18 gauge purple/grey that can be easily pulled in with the old conductors - all I've seen are the more typical controls and/or fire alarm products, usually either white/black, or black/red. I'm sure it's out there - just need to ramp up my search.


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## B-Nabs

CraziFuzzy said:


> I do like this idea. I only deal with retrofits, myself, so I'm not ever installing new armored cables (but I have seen the luminary whips that have the 18 gauge dimming wire included in the bundle).
> 
> 
> 
> What I have not seen readily available, is a simple 2 conductor cable with 18 gauge purple/grey that can be easily pulled in with the old conductors - all I've seen are the more typical controls and/or fire alarm products, usually either white/black, or black/red. I'm sure it's out there - just need to ramp up my search.


No reason it needs to be cable with purple and grey wires. You can just as easily use red and black or black and white, just as long as you know what you're connecting to what and it's the same on both ends. Purple is Positive and grey is negative on a 0 - 10V fixture, so I connect purple to red and grey to black (or purple to white and grey to black). The electrons don't care.

The most recent brand of luminary cable I bought the dimming wires were purple and yellow, go figure. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR

CraziFuzzy said:


> I do like this idea. I only deal with retrofits, myself, so I'm not ever installing new armored cables (but I have seen the luminary whips that have the 18 gauge dimming wire included in the bundle).
> 
> What I have not seen readily available, is a simple 2 conductor cable with 18 gauge purple/grey that can be easily pulled in with the old conductors - all I've seen are the more typical controls and/or fire alarm products, usually either white/black, or black/red. I'm sure it's out there - just need to ramp up my search.



Why even worry about color coding on wires that are obviously a smaller gauge than the line voltage wires?


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## Weasel

Mechanical DVR is correct the travelers can’t be smaller since they are drawing the same current


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## Incognito

Weasel said:


> Mechanical DVR is correct the travelers can’t be smaller since they are drawing the same current


They are not talking about travelers, they are talking about 0 - 10 Volt control wires that ARE smaller than the line voltage wires.


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## powered lighting

Most of our jobs are new construction commercial and this is what we use:
120/208: Black, Red, Blue, White
120/208 High Leg: Black, Orange, Blue, White
277/480: Brown, Purple, Yellow, Gray
10V Dimming #14: Gray, Purple
Travelers: Pink
Switch Leg: Same color of the circuit marked (some time with white stripe)
On MC cable we try to match the same combinations, specially for the 277/480.

Colors are never repeated, you may said it sounds to perfect and complicated but is not, we just stock 3 rolls #12 and #10 of each at the shop, and re-stock as we use it, is the same price anyway. MC 277/480 we don't use that much so is not stock.For bigger wires we order by colors also. We do this across the company.


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## Kevin

powered lighting said:


> Most of our jobs are new construction commercial and this is what we use:
> 120/208: Black, Red, Blue, White
> 120/208 High Leg: Black, Orange, Blue, White
> 277/480: Brown, Purple, Yellow, Gray
> 10V Dimming #14: Gray, Purple
> Travelers: Pink
> Switch Leg: Same color of the circuit marked (some time with white stripe)
> On MC cable we try to match the same combinations, specially for the 277/480.
> 
> Colors are never repeated, you may said it sounds to perfect and complicated but is not, we just stock 3 rolls #12 and #10 of each at the shop, and re-stock as we use it, is the same price anyway. MC 277/480 we don't use that much so is not stock.For bigger wires we order by colors also. We do this across the company.


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## gnuuser

I have seen different color conductors used but they were always marked with the correct color tape per phase and switch legs, not at all ideal but marking a conductor for its phase or function does comply with 210.5.


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