# Installing ground rods in basement.



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I have come across a couple of services as of late that had the ground rods installed right under the panel. One rod was driven in just below the panel and the other six feet away. One set was in the ground and the other was driven pretty much horizontally into the wall of the basement. At first I scoffed at it but the last one made me wonder ....... why not..


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Was there evidence of leaking at the horizontal rod? Otherwise, I don't think that lightning would care.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

captkirk said:


> I have come across a couple of services as of late that had the ground rods installed right under the panel. One rod was driven in just below the panel and the other six feet away. One set was in the ground and the other was driven pretty much horizontally into the wall of the basement. At first I scoffed at it but the last one made me wonder ....... why not..


Wasn't there a discussion of Holt driving two 50' rods for his house it was I believe, and there was no real difference compared to two 8' rods???? That was a LONG time ago if I remember correctly. For all I know, it was so long ago, I may have dreamed it. Anyone else remember?????


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I have come across a couple of services as of late that had the ground rods installed right under the panel. One rod was driven in just below the panel and the other six feet away. One set was in the ground and the other was driven pretty much horizontally into the wall of the basement. At first I scoffed at it but the last one made me wonder ....... why not..



The rod was driven into the wall? Interesting. If the wall is below grade I don't see a problem. Maybe an expert in grounding will chime in. I can see where that would come in handy.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Like Riveter said, was there leaking. I'd rather put them outside myself as leaking is a huge issue in a basement.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

captkirk said:


> I have come across a couple of services as of late that had the ground rods installed right under the panel. One rod was driven in just below the panel and the other six feet away. One set was in the ground and the other was driven pretty much horizontally into the wall of the basement. At first I scoffed at it but the last one made me wonder ....... why not..


horizontally is okay as long as it is two feet below grade...was it?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> The rod was driven into the wall? Interesting. If the wall is below grade I don't see a problem. Maybe an expert in grounding will chime in. I can see where that would come in handy.


I am certainly not the expert but would have to say that I know hundreds of electricians and not one would punch a hole into a basement wall or floor, on purpose. Like I mentioned, the lightning would probably not care how it got to ground but my rule of thumb would be to not bring it inside, unnecessarily.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am certainly not the expert but would have to say that I know hundreds of electricians and not one would punch a hole into a basement wall or floor, on purpose. Like I mentioned, the lightning would probably not care how it got to ground but my rule of thumb would be to not bring it inside, unnecessarily.



I've seen hundreds, hell maybe thousands of residential services with the ground rods driven in the basements of buildings.(never in the wall though) In a city like Philadelphia with dense rowhome type buildings, this is very common. In some of the older parts of the city it's the only option. Usually you see it right under the panel in the basement of the building.

But I do see your point.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

why not, how about the same reason basements have sump pumps. water travels down the wall on the exterior just looking for options. a hole in the wall or basement floor seems like it would leak given enough time.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> The rod was driven into the wall? Interesting. If the wall is below grade I don't see a problem. Maybe an expert in grounding will chime in. I can see where that would come in handy.


 If your from Philly you will know that you can always get good access to dirt, and sometimes you are surrounded by concret. So why go all the way outside..?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

captkirk said:


> If your from Philly you will know that you can always get good access to dirt, and sometimes you are surrounded by concret. So why go all the way outside..?



Ever drive a rod in a basement with a 5' high ceiling?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> Ever drive a rod in a basement with a 5' high ceiling?


maybe at a 45 degree angle, at least.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> maybe at a 45 degree angle, at least.



That's usually what happens. But it's still not fun, especially since I'm 6' 2''.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> That's usually what happens. But it's still not fun, especially since I'm 6' 2''.


in that case, I'd take it outside; all my experience is here in Ga. so I can't comment on the tight ass living conditions up north...seems odd to me, but it makes sense with the population density.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Art. 250.53(G) states that a ground rod may be driven up to an angle of 45 degrees where rock bottom is encountered. If rock bottom is encountered at 45 degrees then you can lay it in a trench 30" deep.

There is nothing in the code, that I know of, that states the rod shall be driven outdoors. It seems that the moisture level outside the foundation may be greater than inside but maybe not.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> in that case, I'd take it outside; all my experience is here in Ga. so I can't comment on the tight ass living conditions up north...seems odd to me, but it makes sense with the population density.



Yeah I prefer outside also, just isn't possible some times. Some of the older sections of the city the houses are very small and there isn't much outdoor space, it's much more convenient to put the rod in the basement. Maybe it's just a regional thing. 
Do you guy's have housing like this down there?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Like that?
ahahaha!
nah man...Atlanta once had that kind of thing downtown I imagine, but you know, the whole "war of northern aggression" thing happened.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Like that?
> ahahaha!
> nah man...Atlanta once had that kind of thing downtown I imagine, but you know, the whole "war of northern aggression" thing happened.



Yeah there actually giant like 5000 sqft row homes, but you get the idea about space.

What about something like this?









or











Nothing like those??


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

not really dude....there are newer apt.s/condos like that but not for miles on end. That top pic looks allot like Georgetown, DC, which is an architectural type pretty much concentrated up north.


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

I have done both when the front and back of the house were both surrounded by concrete. Looking back, I don't see being able to meet the 8' in contact with the earth requirement since at least 4" or so would be above the dirt in the concrete. This would even be worse going thru a foundation that may be 12" or more thick.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It seems that the moisture level outside the foundation may be greater than inside but maybe not.


What would that matter?


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> I don't see being able to meet the 8' in contact with the earth requirement since at least 4" or so would be above the dirt in the concrete. This would even be worse going thru a foundation that may be 12" or more thick.


They don't sell 10' rods where you are?


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## NY ELECTRIC (Sep 27, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am certainly not the expert but would have to say that I know hundreds of electricians and not one would punch a hole into a basement wall or floor, on purpose. Like I mentioned, the lightning would probably not care how it got to ground but my rule of thumb would be to not bring it inside, unnecessarily.


In N.Y.C. we have to drive the rod at an angle through the basement wall all the time. After three attempts straight down then in the wall it goes. I haven't hit a subway yet.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Are there no water mains??? :jester:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

NY ELECTRIC said:


> In N.Y.C. we have to drive the rod at an angle through the basement wall all the time. After three attempts straight down then in the wall it goes. I haven't hit a subway yet.


You gotta do what you gotta do. Around here it is a sure water leak eventually.


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## NY ELECTRIC (Sep 27, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> Are there no water mains??? :jester:


sure there are water mains is there another part to that question? the gec is attached (bonded) to the water main and the ground rod.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

LOL yes there is another part to that question. 

A guy I used to work with once had a boss who was kind of a pain. Total micromanagement. Well he took this kid around the back of the house and put the ground rod where HE wanted it. 

So the kid pounded it in till he hit something hard. Called the boss over, boss said its just a rock and took the sledge and pounded it right through the WM. LOL Never checked the basement to see where the WM exited. Flooded the entire basement. 6ft deep.:laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> What would that matter?


Legally nothing at all, but in terms of effectiveness, a rod does better in moist soil. Ideally salty, wet soil.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Legally nothing at all, but in terms of effectiveness, a rod does better in moist soil. Ideally salty, wet soil.


Which makes me wonder what 250.53 (A) is trying to say.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Legally nothing at all, but in terms of effectiveness, a rod does better in moist soil. Ideally salty, wet soil.


AND, when the rod is placed outside the chemicals in the concrete leach into the soil and do just that.


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## NY ELECTRIC (Sep 27, 2009)

ok I get it. The water water main shunt? branch? whatever comes in perpendicular to the building the main trunk? line? whatever is more than ten feet away running parallel to the street side bsmt. wall. Never hit that either (knock on wood)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Which makes me wonder what 250.53 (A) is trying to say.


 Well I guess that's why we have 8' rods. Not sure what they do in AZ.

Think of a place like shown above where the houses are touching, no yards, all concrete. How the heck do you ever get to moisture. Concrete is only so porous. New homes is perfect for CEE but the moisture would still be lacking.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well I guess that's why we have 8' rods. Not sure what they do in AZ.
> 
> Think of a place like shown above where the houses are touching, no yards, all concrete. How the heck do you ever get to moisture. Concrete is only so porous. New homes is perfect for CEE but the moisture would still be lacking.


 Question: Does your code say you have to have a ground rod, and also connect to the street side of the water main? Both?


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## Tapeman (Feb 24, 2009)

I have driven ground rods in a garage through a concrete floor where there was a concrete walk outside.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> Question: Does your code say you have to have a ground rod, and also connect to the street side of the water main? Both?


Well, sort of, we must connect to the water pipe if it is metal but we can use a CEE (concrete encased electrode) or we can drive rods-- at least that is the most common scenario. If we drive rods then 2 rods are usually the status quo. 

Here is the article



> 250.53(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
> (1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
> (2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A* metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8).* Where the supplemental electrode is a rod, pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.


Here are the electrodes we can use as a supplement to the water pipe. As I stated before the ground rod and the CEE are the 2 most common ways of complying.

*250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure. 
(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. *
*(4) Ground Ring. *
*(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes.*
*(6) Other Listed Electrodes. Other listed grounding electrodes shall be permitted.
(7) Plate Electrodes. *
*(8) Other Local Metal Underground Systems or Structures*.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I almost always install my ground rod(s) in the basement or garage under my panel. Is there any proof that the deeper down in the earth they sit the less resistance there is to ground ? Thats an old tale i heard.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I almost always install my ground rod(s) in the basement or garage under my panel. Is there any proof that the deeper down in the earth they sit the less resistance there is to ground ? Thats an old tale i heard.


If it's just a tale we could just lay them on the ground next to the ac unit. Ground rods have to be intimate with the earth...the more intimate...the better.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah there actually giant like 5000 sqft row homes, but you get the idea about space.
> 
> What about something like this?
> 
> ...


Old city and Mayfair pics?

Most of them are fed from the back of the homes, with services strapped and taped off one primary feeder strapped the back of the rows. I think the gas mains are there, so is telephone and cable..

Would driving one in the basement, require a PA 1 call? 
(as if electricians really did this)


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I almost always install my ground rod(s) in the basement or garage under my panel. Is there any proof that the deeper down in the earth they sit the less resistance there is to ground ? Thats an old tale i heard.


The longer the rod the more contact you have with the soil. The more moisture the better the resistance.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Old city and Mayfair pics?
> 
> Most of them are fed from the back of the homes, with services strapped and taped off one primary feeder strapped the back of the rows. I think the gas mains are there, so is telephone and cable..
> 
> ...



On the Pic's yes and yes.:thumbsup: Your right on with the services although in old city there usually fed from underground in a "hand hole". The gas is almost always located at the front of the house and the damn cable & telephone could be anywhere, although the city has been pushing for the back of the property as long as it's doable.


I would say a one call is wise but many, many people for go it. In the NE it's easy because the sewer pipe is waaayyyy down there and the gas is always at the front, street side.

At my last house I added a second bathroom in the basement and the sewer pipe was 12' down


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> I have come across a couple of services as of late that had the ground rods installed right under the panel. One rod was driven in just below the panel and the other six feet away. One set was in the ground and the other was driven pretty much horizontally into the wall of the basement. At first I scoffed at it but the last one made me wonder ....... why not..


I thought the same thing when I used to work in Hudson County. But where else are you going to drive ground rods in a concrete jungle? I've never had to do this though.


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## karinwarton (Aug 9, 2010)

my best suggestion is building, completely with concrete is best ,up to my knowledge what i am saying is First we have to take silo test, regarding that land requirements it is better to approach forward to take necessary Steps


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

karinwarton said:


> my best suggestion is building, completely with concrete is best ,up to my knowledge what i am saying is First we have to take silo test, regarding that land requirements it is better to approach forward to take necessary Steps




:blink: :blink:

OK


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Art. 250.53(G) states that a ground rod may be driven up to an angle of 45 degrees where rock bottom is encountered. If rock bottom is encountered at 45 degrees then you can lay it in a trench 30" deep.


As Dennis points out- 250.53 (G) makes this wall mount non Kosher (hey its New York...). Way I see it there is no way around the part in red, so a horizontal driven rod thru a basement wall is a code violation. Driven sideways is not "layed in a trench 30" deep".


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## jaywar (Jan 2, 2021)

BuzzKill said:


> maybe at a 45 degree angle, at least.


Im from pittsburgh and Im running into this problem recently. Whats the best way to run them in the basement. Wall or Ground


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## Wiredindallas (Aug 9, 2018)

Can't you just drill a hole in the floor? That's how we do it hi Warehouses here in Texas.


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