# Have you seen this conduit before?



## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

We are rerouting the high voltage in a duct bank and we crack open the spare first and find this. It smells like tar and feels almost like a thick, stiff, and brittle tar felt paper. Neither my journeyman nor my foreman have seen it before.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Could it be RTRC?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I know that stuff as Orangeburg pipe. I've only ever seen MV installed in it. Some people call it fiber conduit, but nothing to do with fiber optic.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

outlandishspore said:


> We are rerouting the high voltage in a duct bank and we crack open the spare first and find this. It smells like tar and feels almost like a thick, stiff, and brittle tar felt paper. Neither my journeyman nor my foreman have seen it before.


SWAG

Ancient...

PVC came out big half-a-century ago... to replace this type of raceway.

This stuff would appear to be at least that old.

Would that make sense for this situation? 

{ PVC was the BIG thing in polymers circa 1963 }


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

The first thing I thought of was Orangeburg. 
If I remember correctly, you can get regular PVC fittings on it.
If not, they, don't remember exactly who, makes a piece of rubber flex with clamps that will transition it to pipe. It looks like something a plumber would use so save any paperwork it comes with to defend the install.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

You might want to be careful with that conduit. It may contain asbestos.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I believe it is "transite" and if so, it does contain asbestos.


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## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> I know that stuff as Orangeburg pipe. I've only ever seen MV installed in it. Some people call it fiber conduit, but nothing to do with fiber optic.


Thank you mdshunk, I looked up orangeburg and it appears that this is what we have. I will be asking my GF today if he has heard of it and if he agrees.


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## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

telsa said:


> outlandishspore said:
> 
> 
> > We are rerouting the high voltage in a duct bank and we crack open the spare first and find this. It smells like tar and feels almost like a thick, stiff, and brittle tar felt paper. Neither my journeyman nor my foreman have seen it before.
> ...


Telsa, yes that would make sense. I forgot to mention in original post that this installation is from around 1940.


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## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

jrannis said:


> The first thing I thought of was Orangeburg.
> If I remember correctly, you can get regular PVC fittings on it.
> If not, they, don't remember exactly who, makes a piece of rubber flex with clamps that will transition it to pipe. It looks like something a plumber would use so save any paperwork it comes with to defend the install.


Thank you Jrannis, I will hopefully find out today.


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## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

mgraw said:


> You might want to be careful with that conduit. It may contain asbestos.


The laborer I was working with immediately thought the same thing. My foreman said he has worked with transite before and he said it was not that and he did not feel it had asbestos in it. The laborer and myself where using masks, disposable gloves and coveralls and wetting the area down anyway just incase.


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## outlandishspore (Feb 19, 2014)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I believe it is "transite" and if so, it does contain asbestos.


Thank you don_resqapt, we where worried about that as well. My foreman assured us it is not transite, nor asbestos, but not knowing what it was we treated as if it might have asbestos anyway, bagging all the dirt and pieces and wearing protection.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

outlandishspore said:


> Thank you don_resqapt, we where worried about that as well. My foreman assured us it is not transite, nor asbestos, but not knowing what it was we treated as if it might have asbestos anyway, bagging all the dirt and pieces and wearing protection.


If your foreman didn't have a sample tested by a certified lab with results in writing that you can examine that there is no asbestos, then your foreman needs to STFU about what does and doesn't contain asbestos and you need to stop listening to his off the cuff opinions. 

As a rule of thumb, EVERYTHING from that era contained asbestos unless proven otherwise.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Transite is white and a lot thicker than Orangeburg. Transite was a mixture of asbestos and cement. Orangeburg is wood pulp and tar. Some brands did, indeed, use asbestos in the mixture, but it was not part of the "official" mix.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The house I grew up in had Orangeburg pipe for all the outdoor drain lines for the gutters. It collapsed very easily.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

....


MDShunk said:


> Transite is white and a lot thicker than Orangeburg. Transite was a mixture of asbestos and cement. Orangeburg is wood pulp and tar. Some brands did, indeed, use asbestos in the mixture, *but it was not part of the "official" mix*.





> "Technically, the term 'Orangeburg' is the brand name of a sewer pipe made by the Orangeburg Manufacturing Co., Inc. of Orangeburg, New York. The generic name for this type of pipe is 'bituminous fiber pipe.' *The pipe is made of a combination of cellulose and asbestos fibers impregnated with a bituminous (coal tar) compound.* Bituminous fiber pipe was manufactured with either a homogenous wall or a multiple-ply laminated wall. The ends of the pipe were tapered and fitted together using a butt joint."
> 
> http://www.publicworksgroup.com/blog/2012/12/orangeburg-a-coal-tar-impregnated-toilet-paper-tube/


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## TheWireNut (Apr 20, 2014)

You guys must all work on "new" stuff. I see Transite a lot as well as Orangeburg. Transite is whiteish grey like concrete but lighter. I have only seen Orengeburg used in drains thought not for conduit. Most installs of the era use RMC throughout and all the underground stuff has turned into rust many a decade ago. 

TWN


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

outlandishspore said:


> I will be asking my GF today if he has heard of it and if he agrees.



Your girl friend is a dude?

Congratulations man! It takes a lot of guts to come out in a public forum full of construction types:thumbup:


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Looks like some stuff we've worked with before and tested positive for asbestos. 

Happy to hear you are using precautions.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Your girl friend is a dude?
> 
> Congratulations man! It takes a lot of guts to come out in a public forum full of construction types:thumbup:


LOL, sharp eyes!

_"Dude look like a lady..."_:whistling2:


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I had that as my sewer pipe in Seattle, total pain in the posterior because it collapsed on me. Rather than have it dug up all the way out to the street, I opted for a cheaper solution of putting in a PVC liner. That was another bad decision, because it restricted flow and was a never ending source of backups. Another 5 years later, I bit the bullet and had it replaced altogether. When they did that, the company that came out took a sample of it and it DID contain asbestos! This website mentions that too.
http://www.publicworksgroup.com/blog/2012/12/orangeburg-a-coal-tar-impregnated-toilet-paper-tube/


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

outlandishspore said:


> ...It smells like tar and feels almost like a thick, stiff, and brittle tar felt paper....


Dead giveaway for orangeburg.

I agree with the other guys: Do not demo that if it hasn't been tested. We worked with an abatement company removing a bank because it was so heavily contaminated with asbestos.

Dust masks are not adequate protection especially because that stuff can be friable as hell when the tar has leeched out.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Friable... with some fava beans and a nice Chianti perhaps? 
Fefefefefefeh

PS: I know what friable really means, I just can't help but get that image out of my mind whenever I hear that word. Dr. Lecter never says he fried the "meal" so I don't know why, but maybe when I saw that movie for the first time my mind went there (because my mother always fried liver?) and I can't shake it now.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

We have that here at our old buildings. We abandon it when ever we come across it.
We always test it and It always comes back as asbestos containing material. 
We are also in the process of shutting down our 120# central steam heating distribution plant. Many of our older underground lines are wrapped in that great white stuff... It will last a million years buried under our roads..


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

The last time that I saw any Orangeburg conduit installed would have been about 1976. It was commonly used as an underground raceway until PVC took over in this application. I don't believe that is was ever code compliant to use inside or above ground.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

varmit said:


> - I don't believe that is was ever code compliant to use inside or above ground.


Then you'll be surprised to know that every inch of the riser conduit in The Empire State Building was Orangeburg pipe. Most of it remains to this very day.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Then you'll be surprised to know that every inch of the riser conduit in The Empire State Building was Orangeburg pipe. Most of it remains to this very day.


Trusting my memory is a dangerous thing.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Then you'll be surprised to know that every inch of the riser conduit in The Empire State Building was Orangeburg pipe. Most of it remains to this very day.


Wow. Sawdust and tar used as conduit? You would think that stuff would be flammable, even if it DID have some asbestos fibers in it. Given the lengths they go to in fireproofing steel _girders_, it seems odd that they would use such an obviously risky product for electrical conduits. But then again, a lot of what we do now is the result of lessons learned from the time the Empire State Bldg was built. 

I remember an old turn-of-the-century cold storage warehouse that caught fire near Seattle a few decades ago and burned for 2 months because the walls were two layers of brick filled with a foot of compacted sawdust. Once it started burning, it was almost impossible to extinguish it, they ended up bulldozing the entire building and letting the rain eventually put it out. I remember thinking "Who thought it was a good idea to use compacted sawdust as insulation?", but in those days there was probably nothing else to use.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Orangeburg, It's all over out here, as well as tranzite, and clay tile duct. It's probably hot with asbestos, get training and a proper respirator.


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## Bikelover (Mar 31, 2015)

Transite it is! As far as I can see, and yes it contains asbestos.


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## Ragin Cajun (Nov 20, 2013)

MTW said:


> The house I grew up in had Orangeburg pipe for all the outdoor drain lines for the gutters. It collapsed very easily.


My house was built ~ 1967 and had that orangeburg *rap. It was part of the leach field of my septic tank. Had to replace all of it - it collapsed.

Trust you don't plan on pulling conductors through it! You would be lucky to slip some PVC as an inner liner but it likely will still collapse.


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## GrayHair (Jan 14, 2013)

Familiar with Orangeburg but never knew it was used as raceway! I saw it used for Drain and Waste in the '50s and '60s. No idea whether or not it's true, but I was told caustic drain cleaners would eat through it in nothing flat.


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## Unger Electric (Feb 10, 2011)

Orangeburg was first used in oil field work but did not stand the pressure then used for electrical work. It was used in mt. In the 40's for sewer drains. It had a tappered end that fit into the next pipe.


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## dovid (May 7, 2009)

Unger Electric said:


> Orangeburg was first used in oil field work but did not stand the pressure then used for electrical work. It was used in mt. In the 40's for sewer drains. It had a tappered end that fit into the next pipe.


Not at all correct. First used for water, first widespread use for electrical. Oil industry only used it for wastewater drainage, until they discovered that it would deform under pressure (oil rigs pump out salt water, and the pumping puts it at above atmospheric pressure).


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

From what I read some time ago the production of Orangeburg pipe stopped in 1973, my house had that garbage in the crawl space connecting the plumbing stack to the redwood septic tank, got tired of backups because of roots in it (couplings are slip fit), Orangeburg was never supposed to be used in or under a structure as sewer / drain pipe but in 1957 there were no inspections here.


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