# Union tool lists: What's the deal?



## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I have never been associated with the union, but both my dad and granddad were, years and years ago. I've kept up-to-date on some of the "tool list" threads over in the tools area, and on nearly every one of them, someone associated with a union brings up a "Union Tool List". My understanding from reading some of these posts is that according to union rules, you are required to provide your own tools, according to what's on the list. Beyond that, you are not to supply anything. If this is a false impression, feel free to stop me there.

If that is in fact the case, could someone help me understand that? I'm non-union, and if I see fit to supply a tool, I go out, buy it, and use it. My boss has never complained. He supplies me with my power tools and specialty tools. However, I went out and bought myself a cordless drill. He'd already got one for me, but it was an old DeWALT XRP, Ni-Cad, and pretty well ready for retirement. I showed up at the shop with my new Makita LXT, and we had a discussion, went(sort of) like this:

Boss: Get yourself a new drill?
Brad: Yeah, you gave me an old one. Has plenty of life left in it, but it's kind of lacking.
Boss: You know that I'm not buying that one, right?
Brad: No sir, I bought this one with my own dollar, and it is my own personal property. I assume all responsibility for it, and shalt not hold you responsible if it is lost, stolen, or damaged in the course of use, nor shall I hold you responsible if I drill through my hand.
Boss: Very good. I will continue to supply drill bits and general related accessories, but I will not be purchasing extra batteries/chargers/etc. specific to your drill.
Brad: I understand that, sir. This just allows me to do my job a little easier. Makes me more comfortable(I'm happy) and more efficient(you're happy).
Boss: Very good. Off to work with you.

Now, my understanding of the union rules is that the union could penalize me in some way for this. Hence my confusion. This tool is paid for from my own pocket, for my own use on the jobsite, because I find it to be more comfortable to use, which benefits me. As an extension of that, I am more efficient at work, which is a benefit for the boss. Everybody wins, in my mind.

If this is in fact correct, could someone tell me what kind of penalty you may suffer for this kind of infraction? And the thought process behind the decision? Also, if you're willing to share your local's tool list with me, so I can get an idea, I'd be curious.

Again, not really wanting to start an argument. Just wondering.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I have heard some crazy and stupid union rules with regard to this. Let's just say your efficiency is not their main concern.

I will say, even if you drill through your hand with your own personal drill, at work, it is STILL a WC case.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The ostensible function of a union is to ensure fair worker treatment. 

One of the driving methods to reaching that goal is to ensure that all workers are put into similar circumstances.

To that end: If some sparky won the lottery and brought in a 10 piece Dewalt kit, he might be able to work circles around poor saps who could only afford hack-saws and the company's corded drills.

The lottery winner would get promoted because of his luck in life, and not necessarily because of unusual talent, and by comparison the other electricians are out in the cold.

So the Tool List is an attempt to ensure that everyone is judged purely on their ability when the playing field is level.

-John


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Under a union contract, wages ,conditions, benefits - and which tools are to be provided by each of the parties i.e. Contractor/and Employee is negotiated.

Thus,if you take it upon yourself to provide a tool that the contractor is obligated to provide,you've potentially given yourself an advantage.A contractor would be foolish to let personnel go whom he doesn't have to provide tools for.

And away we go.Some guys would provide much more than just a drill.Hand benders,k.o. sets, circuit tracers,cordless port-a bands, and on-and-on.

Others would not be able to provide these,and would be at a disadvantage.Off you go to the hall.

It is a contract,negotiated by two parties.That said, I would like to have cordless drills added to the tool list.Guys would take much better care of their own drill, and I could have my preference.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

The union electrician is a available to any contractor, we all have the same tools and training.
Here is a scenario, you have have two electricians both equally qualified, job is winding down, who are you going to lay off? One has all tools on list, the other has his list plus his own battery drill, if you lay off the the guy with the battery drill you will need to purchase a new companny drill. 
I've seen non union guys with there own gang box full of tools so they are important to he job. Some contractors will take advantage of their workers and have them compete for their jobs like this. Other non union contractor do the right thing and value their employes and have a culture of cooperation so we all make money. I thing both systems are valuable and never want to see everything union or non union.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Makes sense, I suppose. So is there a standardized IBEW union tool list? Could someone give me an example?

And while I imagine some guys could go pretty far providing their own stuff(blurring the employee/sub-contractor line), surely there isn't any harm in bringing a few of your own hand tools?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

CanadianBrad said:


> Makes sense, I suppose. So is there a standardized IBEW union tool list? Could someone give me an example?


It varies local to local. One standard procedure if you're travelling is to get a tool list for the local you're taking a call in. If you've got extra crap leave it at home.



> And while I imagine some guys could go pretty far providing their own stuff(blurring the employee/sub-contractor line), surely there isn't any harm in bringing a few of your own hand tools?


I don't get dispatched out of the hall, I've been employed by the same shop for 6 years or so now. I've got a lot more tools than the ones on the tool list. Breaking the rules? Technically, yes, but on the other hand, it seems a minor rule to break, and as ibuzzard said, I've been more steadily employed than a hall sparky. Kind of makes me a wormy brother but whatever.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

CanadianBrad said:


> Makes sense, I suppose. So is there a standardized IBEW union tool list? Could someone give me an example?
> 
> And while I imagine some guys could go pretty far providing their own stuff(blurring the employee/sub-contractor line), surely there isn't any harm in bringing a few of your own hand tools?


I don't see any harm in it at all Remember the union guys can afford to bring their own tools but arent allowed too because it is unfair...:blink:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> I don't see any harm in it at all Remember the union guys can afford to bring their own tools but arent allowed too because it is unfair...:blink:


Harry we vote on our own by-laws and we enter negotiations (which includes tool list items) represented by agents that we elect. We aren't "not allowed to," we make it that way ourselves.

The OP said he wasn't trying to start s**t so don't start s**t.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Their is not a standardized list,but rather each local has its' own list.I'd imagine they are all quite similar.Basic screwdrivers, Pump(Channel-Lock) Pliers, Needle-Nose ,Dikes, Linemans, Stak-On Pliers, large and small adjustable wrenches, solenoid type voltage tester(my local allows a non-solenoid tester),tin-snips,large and small allen wrench sets(up to about 1/2") universal(swivel-type) screwdriver, tape measure, tap wrench, wood chisels, awl, hole-starting punch,offset screwdrivers, stubby screw drivers.

There are a few more.

On the other hand, in my area,the Union plumbers walk on the job without having to provide so much as a pencil!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Harry we vote on our own by-laws and we enter negotiations (which includes tool list items) represented by agents that we elect. We aren't "not allowed to," we make it that way ourselves.
> 
> The OP said he wasn't trying to start s**t so don't start s**t.


Okay great.

The op said he is not in the Union and if he starts thinking that way he will lose his job.

If he wants to join the union that's great good for him.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Here's the tool list for Local 932, verbatim:

1 pair side cutting pliers
1 pair diagonal cutting pliers
2 pair channel lock pliers
1 pair long nose pliers
1 10" adjustable wrench
1 Phillips screwdriver
1 Stubby screwdriver
1 5" blade screwdriver
1 8" blade screwdriver
1 scribe
1 hammer
1 wire skinning knife
1 tool container
1 center punch
1 torpedo level
1 set nut drivers (3/16" to 1/2"
1 tri-square
1 wire stripper
1 set Allen wrenches (3/16" to 3/8")
1 U.L. approved Wiggins or equal tester
1 insulated holding screwdriver
1 hacksaw with adjustable frame
1 3/4" x 12' steel tape measure
1 set combination wrenches (3/8" to 9/16" by 1/16ths)

Now it is also states in this clause that these tools are a MINIMUM, and that each Journeyman shall provide himself with an adequate set of hand tools to enable him to perform his particular classification of work.

There is also a clause which lays out the items specifically prohibited for us to supply on our own. It's mostly power tools and stuff.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

erics37 said:


> It varies local to local. One standard procedure if you're travelling is to get a tool list for the local you're taking a call in. * If you've got extra crap leave it at home.*
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get dispatched out of the hall, I've been employed by the same shop for 6 years or so now. * I've got a lot more tools than the ones on the tool list. * Breaking the rules? Technically, yes, but on the other hand, it seems a minor rule to break, and as ibuzzard said, I've been more steadily employed than a hall sparky. Kind of makes me a* wormy brother* but whatever.


:blink::blink::blink:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

360max said:


> :blink::blink::blink:


Are you pointing out my contradictions? I'm aware of them already, thanks though :laughing::thumbup:


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Almost all members that I know, have additional tools.Where to draw the line?When a member calls the hall or informs a job steward, and you and/or the crew receive a pep-talk.

I keep my contraband tools out in the trunk,and bring them in as needed.Then, back to the trunk they go.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah, things like this make the union seem ridiculous. 

A rule no one follows till it suits them to use it to bust balls.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Harry we vote on our own by-laws and we enter negotiations (which includes tool list items) represented by agents that we elect. We aren't "not allowed to," we make it that way ourselves.
> 
> The OP said he wasn't trying to start s**t so don't start s**t.


Just in case you did not know it in my state Electricians are required to be licensed whether or not you are in the union in an open shop Electricians are paid premium pay to hold those licenses and bring the tools required to perform Electrical work,
If you show up with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver in you back pocket the you will not last very long in an open shop even in a good economy


BTW you don't have to cuss to make your point...:laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Just in case you did not know it in my state Electricians are required to be licensed whether or not you are in the union in an open shop Electricians are paid premium pay to hold those licenses and bring the tools required to perform Electrical work,
> If you show up with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver in you back pocket the you will not last very long in an open shop even in a good economy


Probably not. As I mentioned, I have quite a few tools more than the tool list I posted, which after reading my Agreement again, technically doesn't really break the rules as our tool list is a minimum.

However if my employer started telling me to provide my own drills and power tools and stuff then it starts to get over the line in my opinion. In an open shop I might not necessarily have any protection against that.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Just in case you did not know it in my state Electricians are required to be licensed whether or not you are in the union in an open shop Electricians are paid premium pay to hold those licenses and bring the tools required to perform Electrical work,
> If you show up with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver in you back pocket the you will not last very long in an open shop even in a good economy
> 
> 
> BTW you don't have to cuss to make your point...:laughing:


what are you supposed to show up with, a gang box and triple nickel?


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, things like this make the union seem ridiculous.
> 
> A rule no one follows till it suits them to use it to bust balls.


Most of the illegal items would be small stuff.Certainly not drills and electrical tools.

I've had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands for instance, and will occasionally use my own ratcheting cable cutters when all battery operated ones are in use.


This has occurred perhaps 3-4 times in the last five years.I need to balance my need for taking care of my perpetually sore hands,versus honoring the spirit, if not the letter, of the contract.I feel no guilt.


Bob,you're a bigger manure-disturber than I am.I can appreciate that:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

360max said:


> what are you supposed to show up with, a gang box and triple nickel?


That helps.....:laughing::laughing:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> That helps.....:laughing::laughing:


:laughing::laughing: I have a new truck too, want me to put some pipe racks on it just in case:thumbup:


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks to all who offered replies, especially to Eric, who gave me the tool list I was wondering about. For the record, I am at this time employed in a non-union shop, and am perfectly happy with all things(environment, co-workers, workplace freedoms, pay scale, benefits, etc.) in my current shop. I just found an old IBEW sticker on a toolbox, and since I'm now in the trade, I figure it's worth doing the homework, so when I leave my current employer, after getting my journeyman ticket, I know if the union is the route I want to take.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions and thoughts. I think it's probably time to put this one to bed, before we get some kind of ugly Union vs Non thing going on.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

360max said:


> :laughing::laughing: I have a new truck too, want me to put some pipe racks on it just in case:thumbup:


I will buy the ladders.....:thumbup::thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

CanadianBrad said:


> Anyway, thanks for the opinions and thoughts. I think it's probably time to put this one to bed, before we get some kind of ugly Union vs Non thing going on.


NO!!!!!!!

That will never happen around here ......:blink::blink::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## Dead Roman (Jul 7, 2011)

Im a union apprentice and I carry more tools than some journeymen. I am also more capable than some of my journeymen. The bottom line is, I carry all the tools around for the Journeyman(we run service) and It is easier to carry 1 set than 2, so I carry my set and he uses my tools for the most part.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Dead Roman said:


> Im a union apprentice and I carry more tools than some journeymen. I am also more capable than some of my journeymen. The bottom line is, I carry all the tools around for the Journeyman(we run service) and It is easier to carry 1 set than 2, so I carry my set and he uses my tools for the most part.


Sounds like a crappy deal. I'm also an apprentice, and I stressed that to the journeyman I work with. I'm an apprentice, not a pack mule. You want me to help you hump tools and supplies, great. They're your hand tools, you carry them. I mentioned to one of them that if he thought I was going to haul his sh*t around for him, his pouch might accidentally get left on the bumper of the truck.

And maybe it's just me, or maybe it's because the journeyman I usually work with is hard on his stuff, but I always make sure he's into his own tools, not mine. I gave one guy a pretty hard time when he asked to borrow my needle-nosed pliers, because he "didn't own any". I'm a first-year apprentice, still new to the trade, and I have them, but you, with 7 years to your name, don't?

Just me, I guess. I'm not a tool rental, or a pack mule, or a coffee delivery(a big gob of saliva in your cup may remind you of that), or anything like that. I'm an apprentice. I'm here to work, and I'm here to learn. If you think that I'm anything different, you're confused.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Left-handed, and all.


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## Dead Roman (Jul 7, 2011)

CanadianBrad said:


> Sounds like a crappy deal. I'm also an apprentice, and I stressed that to the journeyman I work with. I'm an apprentice, not a pack mule. You want me to help you hump tools and supplies, great. They're your hand tools, you carry them. I mentioned to one of them that if he thought I was going to haul his sh*t around for him, his pouch might accidentally get left on the bumper of the truck.
> 
> And maybe it's just me, or maybe it's because the journeyman I usually work with is hard on his stuff, but I always make sure he's into his own tools, not mine. I gave one guy a pretty hard time when he asked to borrow my needle-nosed pliers, because he "didn't own any". I'm a first-year apprentice, still new to the trade, and I have them, but you, with 7 years to your name, don't?
> 
> ...



I guess you have crappy Journeymen, Where I have good Journeymen who treat me well. They are also all in their 60's and I am 27. Its no sweat for me to carry some stuff but its getting a lot harder for these guys. I hope one day I have an apprentice like me...


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Dead Roman said:


> I guess you have crappy Journeymen, Where I have good Journeymen who treat me well. They are also all in their 60's and I am 27. Its no sweat for me to carry some stuff but its getting a lot harder for these guys. I hope one day I have an apprentice like me...


Nope, they aren't bad guys at all. Just gotta train 'em proper. Like a new puppy. Now, if we could get some of them to stop leaving puddles on the floor...


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Borrowing tools is one of the many reasons I prefer working alone.

Also, whenever I have an apprentice, stuff doesn't get put away on my van JUST RIGHT... drives me nuts. I have everything situated where nothing moves around in transit and makes an annoying squeak or rattle or whatever.... unless I have a helper put stuff away. Then 90% of the time something starts rolling back and forth whenever I accelerate or decelerate.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, things like this make the union seem ridiculous.
> 
> A rule no one follows till it suits them to use it to bust balls.


One thing to take into consideration Bob. Guys are encouraged to leave their tool in the gangbox each day after work. I guess this might be some small way to keep guys from moonlighting. Same thing with supplying tools. Someone with their own ladders, KO sets and power tools are more likely to be moonlighters.
Another thing to consider is that if someone breaks into a gangbox and steals everyone's tools, only those on the tool list are obligated to be replaced by the contractor. 
I have been on jobs where the Steward checked to make sure everyone has tools. Nothing is usually said about extra tools and no one really knows who has what on a crew level except your foreman.

Quite a few of the rules such as base pay, tools and other things that seem regimental were most likely put into place by former military people during the 50's and 60's to maintain uniformity when handling a large workforce.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, things like this make the union seem ridiculous.
> 
> A rule no one follows till it suits them to use it to bust balls.





ibuzzard said:


> Bob,you're a bigger manure-disturber than I am.I can appreciate that:thumbup:


:laughing:


Thanks ...... I think. :jester:

But honestly, what part of that short post os mine is bovine excrement?

From these forums I have learned the following

1) Unions have tool lists and the members are not supposed to provide more than what is on the list at any time.

2) This rule seems to be ignored by many of the union members when it suits them.

3) If an employer violates any union rule they are scum of the earth.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> One thing to take into consideration Bob. Guys are encouraged to leave their tool in the gangbox each day after work. I guess this might be some small way to keep guys from moonlighting. Same thing with supplying tools. Someone with their own ladders, KO sets and power tools are more likely to be moonlighters.


Weak ... :laughing:






> Another thing to consider is that if someone breaks into a gangbox and steals everyone's tools, only those on the tool list are obligated to be replaced by the contractor.


Our own shop prohibits personal tools left in the gang box.

In all the mixed constrution jobs I have worked the union guys also bring their tools out each day. 

Things change when you get into 'in house type jobs'




> I have been on jobs where the Steward checked to make sure everyone has tools. Nothing is usually said about extra tools and no one really knows who has what on a crew level except your foreman.


So what you are saying is it is OK for a member to violate this tool rule.

Can the employer violtate the tool rule? 



> Quite a few of the rules such as base pay, tools and other things that seem regimental were most likely put into place by former military people during the 50's and 60's to maintain uniformity when handling a large workforce.


Seems very likely.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Weak ... :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This has been by experience:
The rules are a guideline and are agreed on by both the contractor and the electricians. 
Not every rule can be followed in every single situation but if some dispute arises, we have to look into the agreement to see what it says. Somethings are policed more than others, somethings are not commonly known and are completely ignored.
Some of the sacred cows are wage rates, overtime pay and fairness in sharing overtime.
You will never see someone show up on a job carrying in his personal ladder, hand benders or KO set. On the same thought, if someone was taking out a ladder, bender or OK set, it would be obvious that they either had permission or they were stealing.
Every shop seems to develop its own personality depending on the contractor and the field guys. 
Some contractors are real fussy about tool control. I went back to work for a large shop where I served my apprenticeship and saw the same benders and tuggers we used 25 years ago. All in nice working condition.
Some shops offer some guys over scale pay, a guaranteed 40 hours and a paid vacation. In exchange, they may put in a few long days or make a few after hour meetings.

You work a large shop, Im sure you have dozens of benders and a dozen KO sets, crimp tools, meters and pulleys and ropes and all types of tools that you charge to jobs that come back to the shop and then get sent back out to jobs. You have control of those tools and don't rely on each person to have what could be a show stopping tool.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Many, if not most young apprentices/journeymen get "tool-itis", or get impatient to complete a job or task,and it's frustrating not to have on -hand all the tools or materials you need.That's natural.

As time goes on, and after 10 years or so, you begin to develop the attitude that, "If they don't care, why should we?"The contractors' failure, or by extension, his foremans' failure, to supply adequate quantities of the necessary tools is not my problem.Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part

In order to remove a mans' excuse not to perform, he needs tools, information, and materials.If either of these is absent, performance suffers.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Sometimes the lines get blurred but not fuzzy. You carry your tool box by hand with whatever tools in it you need to do your job. Nothing power except your meter and flash light. Never seen any negative action on that. If I had it my way, I would allow those rubber maid carts on the list. I would hook my $hit up with stereo and charging stations. A shelf on the bottom portion then enclose with sheet metal and but some doors on it.


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

CanadianBrad said:


> Just me, I guess. I'm not a tool rental, or a pack mule, or a coffee delivery(a big gob of saliva in your cup may remind you of that), or anything like that. I'm an apprentice. I'm here to work, and I'm here to learn. If you think that I'm anything different, you're confused.


Actually, apprentices ARE generally the coffee guys. I've done my time getting coffee, and now I'm too expensive to get coffee. But I agree, apprentices should NEVER be carrying a journeymans hand tools. Company power tools and material sure, but not while the journeyman carries nothing.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

The union tool list was designed to make every man equal. Some locals have the word MINUIMUM while others are very specific that say all additional tools are the responsibility of the contractor. The language and the tool list are not universal. 

It's kind of stupid if you ask me. It should say "have the necessary hand tools for the job at hand". A roto split is not on any of the tool lists nearby. Everyone should have one, yet, if it is ever proposed, the guys would go ape sh!t. These are the same guys that have 3 of them at home. 

My 2nd uncle was actually brought up on charges because he laid off a guy who couldn't cut pipe. The tool list said "hacksaw frame". The guy from the hall took his blade off before walking on site. When the guy asked for a bandsaw he was told one wasn't on site yet, to use his hacksaw. I need a blade. Haven't you worked for this company before? Yes. Did you get a blade then? Yes. Where is it? At home. Since you didn't return it, are you a thief? Uh, no. It was given to me. Here's your pink. My 2nd uncle was cleared of all charges.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

erics37 said:


> Borrowing tools is one of the many reasons I prefer working alone.
> 
> Also, whenever I have an apprentice, stuff doesn't get put away on my van JUST RIGHT... drives me nuts. I have everything situated where nothing moves around in transit and makes an annoying squeak or rattle or whatever.... unless I have a helper put stuff away. Then 90% of the time something starts rolling back and forth whenever I accelerate or decelerate.


Yeah, working with guys like you drives us nuts too.:laughing:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Probably not. As I mentioned, I have quite a few tools more than the tool list I posted, which after reading my Agreement again, technically doesn't really break the rules as our tool list is a minimum.
> 
> However if my employer started telling me to provide my own drills and power tools and stuff then it starts to get over the line in my opinion. In an open shop I might not necessarily have any protection against that.


I'm sure you left out that your employer has bought MOST of your extra tools. I have hole saws, unibits, and drill bits in my bag. But they were all bought by the employer.On a side note...My first month in the union I brought a drill index from home, foremen came up and commented on how nice it was. Said, ya, got it at sears. He told me I need to take it home where it belongs. I said, all the bits in the gang box are crap. New index showed up on the job the next day.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> I'm sure you left out that your employer has bought MOST of your extra tools. I have hole saws, unibits, and drill bits in my bag. But they were all bought by the employer.On a side note...My first month in the union I brought a drill index from home, foremen came up and commented on how nice it was. Said, ya, got it at sears. He told me I need to take it home where it belongs. I said, all the bits in the gang box are crap. New index showed up on the job the next day.


Well the only "extra" tools that I own are various hand tools, and they're all in my tool box or tool bags.

Everything else on my van, including many hand tools (especially low voltage stuff - punch down tool, crimpers, etc.), belongs to the shop.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> Actually, apprentices ARE generally the coffee guys. I've done my time getting coffee, and now I'm too expensive to get coffee. But I agree, apprentices should NEVER be carrying a journeymans hand tools. Company power tools and material sure, but not while the journeyman carries nothing.


If I owned my own company, and determined that you, as a journeyman I employed, were either leaving the worksite to get a cup of coffee, or sending another employee off the site to get coffee, while on my payroll, I would be inclined to fire all parties involved. I'm not entirely sure when "running for coffee" became an acceptable task to pay someone for, whether they be paid minimum wage or a journeyman's wage. My employer shares that mindset.

It's interesting how many journeyman don't seem to understand that. I am a working partner with my journeyman. He teaches, I learn, we work together. It's a third party that signs my cheque, and he is the boss, not that journeyman.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

CanadianBrad said:


> If I owned my own company, and determined that you, as a journeyman I employed, were either leaving the worksite to get a cup of coffee, or sending another employee off the site to get coffee, while on my payroll, I would be inclined to fire all parties involved. I'm not entirely sure when "running for coffee" became an acceptable task to pay someone for, whether they be paid minimum wage or a journeyman's wage. My employer shares that mindset.
> 
> It's interesting how many journeyman don't seem to understand that. I am a working partner with my journeyman. He teaches, I learn, we work together. It's a third party that signs my cheque, and he is the boss, not that journeyman.


Sorry, but the asshole Canadian boss baglicker apprentice troll has been done to death here. :sleeping:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

CanadianBrad said:


> If I owned my own company, and determined that you, as a journeyman I employed, were either leaving the worksite to get a cup of coffee, or sending another employee off the site to get coffee, while on my payroll, I would be inclined to fire all parties involved. I'm not entirely sure when "running for coffee" became an acceptable task to pay someone for, whether they be paid minimum wage or a journeyman's wage. My employer shares that mindset.
> 
> It's interesting how many journeyman don't seem to understand that. I am a working partner with my journeyman. He teaches, I learn, we work together. It's a third party that signs my cheque, and he is the boss, not that journeyman.


 so your an apprentice?


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Indeed I am.


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## Dead Roman (Jul 7, 2011)

CanadianBrad said:


> Indeed I am.


you arent a union apprentice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

First off I am union and I supply almost all tools, you want it I buy it, you break it, get it repaired I will pay for it. If the tool I give you is old, worn, (*INSERT JOKE HERE*) get it repaired or let me know I will get you a new one.

BUT, I had a guy that insisted his battery drill was better that the one we furnished,l I never gave it another thought until six months later it was burnt up and he wanted a new one.



New policy time.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> BUT, I had a guy that insisted his battery drill was better that the one we furnished,l I never gave it another thought until six months later it was burnt up and he wanted a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> New policy time.


That's a legitimate point. I bought my own drill and impact driver knowing that I had a ton of uses off the site for them, and took them to work knowing that they were superior in performance to my current tools. Admittedly, I did have a discussion beforehand with the boss, and told him that I wouldn't hold him responsible for damage that the drill may suffer during the course of my time at work. If he would have asked me to sign something committing to that, I would have, no problem. I actually had our regular working conditions in mind when I was buying tools, thinking that they'd probably end up there.

The thing I really like about it is that my regular J-man partner, who is fairly abusive to tools(both his and the company stuff), shies away from borrowing mine. I put a padlock on the case, which keeps him out. The padlock also seems to make him reconsider reaching into my tool pouch, which saves a lot of my other stuff from getting beat up.

So what kind of action would you expect from the union if you had tools you weren't supposed to on the list?


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Dead Roman said:


> you arent a union apprentice.


Nope. Non-union. Just curious. The contractor I work for now has a pretty broad range of job assignments in industrial and commercial fields. Small commercial construction, industrial system design/construction/renovation, industrial demolition, PLC programming, voice/video/data, etc. So following my apprenticeship, when I've decided what kind of speclalization I want to pursue, I'll look at changing jobs, which may or may not involve looking at the union. So this is just to gather a little info on the union, and tool lists seem to come up a lot from posts I read over in the Tools forum.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

erics37 said:


> It varies local to local. One standard procedure if you're travelling is to get a tool list for the local you're taking a call in. If you've got extra crap leave it at home.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get dispatched out of the hall, I've been employed by the same shop for 6 years or so now. I've got a lot more tools than the ones on the tool list. Breaking the rules? Technically, yes, but on the other hand, it seems a minor rule to break, and as ibuzzard said, I've been more steadily employed than a hall sparky. Kind of makes me a wormy brother but whatever.


 Most guys probably think you're wormy because you've worked for the same contractor for so long. Oh yeah you're probably a big kiss ass too. I've been with the same contractor for almost 13yrs. and I've heard stuff like that after about year 2. Mostly from the guys that are the first to get laid off. A few extra hand tools is no big deal. I don't check my guys to make sure they don't have things that aren't on the tool list, but I wouldn't want to see them bring any battery or power tools.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> If I owned my own company, and determined that you, as a journeyman I employed, were either leaving the worksite to get a cup of coffee, or sending another employee off the site to get coffee, while on my payroll, I would be inclined to fire all parties involved. I'm not entirely sure when "running for coffee" became an acceptable task to pay someone for, whether they be paid minimum wage or a journeyman's wage. My employer shares that mindset.
> .


With my company you are NEVER to old or too well trained to get coffee. I do coffee runs all the time. My guys often work long days, long nights and sometimes 27 out of 30 days (like this month), so buying or getting them breakfast, lunch, dinner or coffee is in my opinion a small thing.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

brian john;[URL="tel:700835" said:


> 700835[/URL]]With my company you are NEVER to old or too well trained to get coffee. I do coffee runs all the time. My guys often work long days, long nights and sometimes 27 out of 30 days (like this month), so buying or getting them breakfast, lunch, dinner or coffee is in my opinion a small thing.


I agree, I have 10 guys working a shut down today and I went and picked up lunch. This morning I bought a latte for the safety gal.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> I agree, I have 10 guys working a shut down today and I went and picked up lunch. This morning I bought a latte for the safety gal.


 
Coffee only no Latte's. And they better drink it black. 

I have one guy 7 cream,s 10 sugars in a small coffee.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sparky970 said:


> Most guys probably think you're wormy because you've worked for the same contractor for so long. Oh yeah you're probably a big kiss ass too. I've been with the same contractor for almost 13yrs. and I've heard stuff like that after about year 2. Mostly from the guys that are the first to get laid off. A few extra hand tools is no big deal. I don't check my guys to make sure they don't have things that aren't on the tool list, but I wouldn't want to see them bring any battery or power tools.


I have seen mentality this over and over, some guys just don't get it.

When I was learning testing I was called a brown noser as I always volunteered for extra work (to learn testing), took classes, stayed late (FOR OT). I was told, watch when the time is ripe you will go like the rest of us, back to the hall. They went, I got a service truck. When I saw them on other jobs in subsequent years, they would ask, how to heck are you still here, sopping up the gravy?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

brian john;[URL="tel:700879" said:


> 700879[/URL]]I have seen mentality this over and over, some guys just don't get it.
> 
> When I was learning testing I was called a brown noser as I always volunteered for extra work (to learn testing), took classes, stayed late (FOR OT). I was told, watch when the time is ripe you will go like the rest of us, back to the hall. They went, I got a service truck. When I saw them on other jobs in subsequent years, they would ask, how to heck are you still here, sopping up the gravy?


If being wormy is doing your job, keeping your mouth shut, and showing initiative, then I'm as wormy as they come.:thumbup:


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

CanadianBrad said:


> If I owned my own company, and determined that you, as a journeyman I employed, were either leaving the worksite to get a cup of coffee, or sending another employee off the site to get coffee, while on my payroll, I would be inclined to fire all parties involved. I'm not entirely sure when "running for coffee" became an acceptable task to pay someone for, whether they be paid minimum wage or a journeyman's wage. My employer shares that mindset.
> 
> It's interesting how many journeyman don't seem to understand that. I am a working partner with my journeyman. He teaches, I learn, we work together. It's a third party that signs my cheque, and he is the boss, not that journeyman.


Maybe I wasn't clear on that. I wasn't going out at random times of day to grab coffee's. I get a 15 minute break at about 9:30am and that's when I get my coffee. I work on a job with more than 20 guys, and we have two guys grab coffee (one for the condo, one for the rest of the job.) 

The "employer" seems fine with it as it's better for 1 apprentice to grab 10 coffee's than 10 guys grab 1 coffee.


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## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, things like this make the union seem ridiculous.
> 
> A rule no one follows till it suits them to use it to bust balls.


Nope. I've worked out of or with guys from almost every local on the east coast, I've seen this rule broken maybe twice in close to 15 years. When it is broken, its usually an organized guy who doesn't know any better or whatever and brings in their personnel drill. You tell me how many union guys you've seen using their own power tools.
It's not as big of a deal that people here are making it out to be. Nobody's checking toolboxs at the door. Bottom line, we supply our own hand tools(there is a list of the MINIMUM we need to have, what ever they may be. My box has about every handtool you could imagine. I could probably build a skyscraper from the ground up with my tools, long as the contractor supplys the power tools(and they do)
It falls under the same category as why we don't use our personnel phones or vehicles to transport company material, where is the line drawn? It starts off with drills, then sawzall and bandsaws, before you know it suck asses are pulling up with threaders and gangboxes in their trucks.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Few topics can be more diverse than the topic of tools for the job- and it's not just a union thing.

There's a tremendous variety in our trade, and one's quite likely to have to do a major re-sort of their tool bag for a different task, let alone a different employer. A lifetime working, and there are still thoudands of dollars worth of tools I haven't got, that I wish I had!

"Breaking balls." Yea, I've seen that. An all steel & concrete job, where the 'list' included a wood chisel. Sure enough, there was one management puke who liked to ask for it, at random, just to harrass you. No wood chisel, home you went for the day.

Not that management has a monopoly on braying. ("Braying" is the sound made by jackasses). I've lost count of the "professionals" I've worked with who never seem to own any tools ... they're always borrowing from others. Some of them are decent about it, while others beat the tar out of the tools. Or, the tools just 'disappear.' 

"The company should provide that." Sometimes I agree with the sentiment, but supply my own anyway. Here are a few examples:

Knee pads: I've worked with guys who spent their career complaining of sore knees (from very cold, very hot, or very rough surfaces) but refused on principle to buy the knee pads because 'the employer should.' Well, I get tired of sore knees real fast - and they're my knees, dammit. The boss ain't the one who's hurting.

Fish tape: Sure, the company provides ... but the ones I find in the JoBox are jammed, kinked, have cracked cases and are missing handles. Phooey on that. Somehow, it's the guys who toss them down from the highest ladders, and otherwise abuse them, who always seem to get the new ones. Nope; I won't let them make me look bad by leaving me with the dogs; I'll have mine. An amazing pattern emerges: personal fish tapes last a lifetiime, while 'company' tapes last maybe half a year. Gee, I wonder why. (I also see the same pattern with ladders).

Pipe bender: The company benders always seem to be hidden away, monopolized by some jerk who's going to use in in 'just a minute.' What am I supposed to do? Punch him in the nose? Stand around with my thumb up my ass because he's keeping me from working? Nope. I'm going to do MY job ... and those clown are just another obstacle. Doom on you, Jack.

Common power tools: I've been up a ladder or in a tight spot too many times, in the middle of a task, even with the tool in my hand and at work .... when along comes someone, Boss in tow, with orders to hand over the company tool. Naturally, this puts me behind schedule- and everyone acts like it's my fault. Bull pucky. If it's mine, I can 'just say no.'

OK, so employers can be jerks as well. I'll not forget the place that gave me a $10/wk "tool allowance" then straight-faced expected me to supply an SDS-Max AND a spline-drive rotohammer!

"We supply you with everything you need" might sound nice, but has ALWAYS, IMO, led to a low-skill job with inadequate or improper tooling. 

There's no substitute for personal "ownership," whether you actually own the tools, or they are simply issued to you and you're held responsible.

"Tool lists" are a nice idea, but they have to be relevant, and they have to be enforced. If the guy is told that he needs a 1/2" socket, he better have it by day 2 (I'll assume he was sent direct from the hall on day #1), because I'll not share. He's screwing me, if he thinks it's my job to subsidize him.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Of course there is a difference between union tools and nonunion tools. Union tools are smarter and cost twice as much. Lol


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Theriot said:


> Of course there is a difference between union tools and nonunion tools. Union tools are smarter and cost twice as much. Lol


 But they perform better and last longer.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

i have a specific tool that comes to mind that is strictly prohibited and i have been carrying it lately. It is a "smart level." Tells you the exact degree that you are at down to the 1/10th of a degree. It makes bending on a triple nickel much easier. If i told the contractor that i need one to do my job, they would look at me like im ********. The way i see it, it cost about the same price as a checkpoint level, so it wasn't ridiculously expensive and it makes my job easier and more efficient with better quality. So ive been carrying it. Contractor won't provide me one so i provided my own. If the contractor told me that i HAD to buy one, id tell him where to stick it, because it would be crap. 

I have to keep it hidden and hush hush that i have it, theyd make me take it home. But i like to use it


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> I have to keep it hidden and hush hush that i have it, theyd make me take it home. But i like to use it



And that is the fine line of stupidity that is union. BUt hard to draw the line, but common sense is not allowed.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

brian john said:


> Coffee only no Latte's. And they better drink it black.
> 
> I have one guy 7 cream,s 10 sugars in a small coffee.


I once had a boss that would get everybody coffee, he would stop and get small coffees then run his errands, by the time your coffee made it back it was warm so nobody had to hang around while it cooled. We just chugged it and went back to work.....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Modern Castle Inc. said:


> I once had a boss that would get everybody coffee, he would stop and get small coffees then run his errands, by the time your coffee made it back it was warm so nobody had to hang around while it cooled. We just chugged it and went back to work.....


I prefer my coffee after sitting, most places make it to durn hot.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

We have a tool list, but most of us are a bit tool heavy. I have a four man crew, and the only tools we carry for "pocket tools" are a pair channy's (420's or 430's) Kliens, an 11-in-1 Klien screw driver, a tape measure, and a tape measure, and an inductive reader, and a roll of tape, for doing temp power.

We work on everything from 1.5 volts, to 13,800 volts. 75% of our work can be done with the above tools. projects that are tool intensive, we get a cart and take our tool boxes. It's all about being efficient.

My "worm box" is an old cadweld box jammed full of stuff I may need that no contractor usually carries - unibits, security tools, etc. But my tool box has combo wrenches from 5/16's to 1", eagle beaks, no-dog, tweakers, etc. All I expect is a guy to bring in enough tools to do a day's job in a journeyman like manner.

One of the best guys I've ever worked with was a minimumalist, but I'd bet a week's paycheck, very few could keep up with him! I don't measure progress by the minute, I measure by what gets done in a week.


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## Modern Castle Inc. (Nov 9, 2011)

brian john said:


> I prefer my coffee after sitting, most places make it to durn hot.


I prefer mine in my shiny new electrician talk mug......thanks again..


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> We have a tool list, but most of us are a bit tool heavy. I have a four man crew, and the only tools we carry for "pocket tools" are a pair channy's (420's or 430's) Kliens, an 11-in-1 Klien screw driver, a tape measure, and a tape measure, and an inductive reader, and a roll of tape, for doing temp power.
> 
> We work on everything from 1.5 volts, to 13,800 volts. 75% of our work can be done with the above tools. projects that are tool intensive, we get a cart and take our tool boxes. It's all about being efficient.
> 
> ...


2 Tape measures and an inductive meter?


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I think he meant 'volt ticker' when he said 'inductive meter.'

As for the 2 tapes ... either a typo, or one is a folding rule.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah I figured, except it doesn't use induction to test for voltage.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Acadian9 said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear on that. I wasn't going out at random times of day to grab coffee's. I get a 15 minute break at about 9:30am and that's when I get my coffee. I work on a job with more than 20 guys, and we have two guys grab coffee (one for the condo, one for the rest of the job.)
> 
> The "employer" seems fine with it as it's better for 1 apprentice to grab 10 coffee's than 10 guys grab 1 coffee.


Well, everyone runs things a little differently, I suppose. Still seems like BS to me. As an apprentice, if on my (unpaid)break, I choose to go and get coffee, that is my business. If I say to my co-workers "I'm going for coffee, want me to grab you one?" that is my prerogative. If I choose not to, you're on your own. If you, as the journeyman, look at me and say "You need to go on a coffee run," one of two things will happen. Firstly and preferably, I'll tell you where to go and how to get there. Alternatively, I'll piss in your cup and won't tell you until you've figured it out.

And, Brian John, if it is your desire to bring food/coffee/sweat towels to your guys, and you're in charge, that's excellent. I personally have zero interest in working in an environment like that. I have the following expectations from my boss:

1) Assign me work.
2) Explain the process by which that work is to be completed.
3) Answer questions I may have regarding that work.
4) Check my work as I'm in progress, and after I finish. Point out deficiencies, and ask and answer questions as required.
5) Give me a work schedule to follow(Monday to Friday, 0700-1900).
6) Pay me.

There are a couple more, but those are the basics. You're not my friend, you're not my wife, you're my boss. Let's stick to work. I have expectations for my journeymen as well:

1) Share in the workload, regardless of any "status" you think your journeyman's ticket may give you.
2) Teach new skills, and refresh others, based on your opinion of the apprentice's capabilities.

Again, there are a couple more, but those are the two big ones. If there are 2 of us working, and there are 2 jobs left to do, then you, as the journeyman, go ahead and handle those PLC terminations while I load up the van. If you think I'm ready for that step, feel free to teach, and we'll clean up the site together afterward. Expectations for apprentices:

1) Participate in as much work as you are confidently capable of completing. Handle menial tasks if the other remaining work is beyond your capabilities.
2) Pay attention to your journeyman when they attempt to teach you something. Ask and answer questions as required to comfortably grasp the work.

There are some more here as well, but those are the ones pertinent to the discussion.

Work, in my opinion, is about completing jobs in an up-to-code, safe, time-efficient, financially-efficient manner. If I want to make friends, I'll go make friends. If I want to make friends with my co-worker, I'll drink a beer with them after work, maybe play a round of golf with them. If I'm interested in making friends with my boss, I'll find another job. That is not a line that needs to be blurred. Then I'll make friends, and maybe we'll barbecue on the weekend.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Good Luck with all that.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Stan B. said:


> Sorry, but the asshole Canadian boss baglicker apprentice troll has been done to death here. :sleeping:


......


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Stan B. said:


> ......


Not entirely sure what you mean here, Stan. I understand you're feeling neglected and need someone to respond to you, but is 9-year-old behaviour really necessary?

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with my opinion. I like to go to work every day. While I'm at work, I like to work. I like to get as much done as I can during the day, and I don't really have any desire to screw around. I also have a problem with apprentices being treated as errand boys. I think we can all agree that an apprentice is brought onto a site to learn the trade. I think we can also all agree that being sent for coffee doesn't have anything to do with electrical work. Therefore, I don't see how it makes any sense to take the guy who is supposed to be learning the trade and sending him off to do something that has nothing to do with the reason he's there.

Regarding trolling, I'm not really sure how I'm doing that. I'm responding to a comment made in a thread I started, stating my opinion. Haven't picked a fight, haven't called names, simply responded.

"Baglicker". Original term, I'll grant you that. It's true. I do enjoy working with the company I work for. I like to put in a solid day's work, and I like to manage my time efficiently and complete as much work as I can every day, to the highest standard I can. I'm not sure why that would be viewed as a bad thing, unless you have a problem with those people because they make you look bad to your own employer(hopefully that isn't the case). I have respect for my boss. He keeps me employed, and he has a genuine interest in me learning the trade. He understands the way that I work, and we have a mutual respect for the employer-employee relationship. He gives the work, I do it, he signs the cheques. Not really seeing the problem.

Now, if you're interested in discussing the topic, please feel free. If you're here to throw insults around, please find your way to the nearest schoolyard. If you're here solely to express your disinterest in the thread, save your time and read something else. Regardless, I, and likely others, would prefer that you stopped acting like a child.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Most guys I know like to work hard for their money also. You seem resentful. Most folks starting out in any line of work is are expected to do menial tasks. Your not going to see a colonel buffing floors in the barracks, but I bet you will catch that private doing it. Usually the JW and apprentice have a basic understanding of what expected of both of them. If I tell my apprentice to go get my tools or a coffee, No problem. It goes both way's also, I will look after him like a little puppy. I'll wipe up his tinkle spots when he makes a mess and will treat him to lunch when we get out. You need to chill cause one day you will be the JW and wondering what happened to the good ol days. It's all part of the learning experience.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

:laughing::laughing: "baglicker"


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> Most guys I know like to work hard for their money also. You seem resentful. Most folks starting out in any line of work is are expected to do menial tasks. Your not going to see a colonel buffing floors in the barracks, but I bet you will catch that private doing it. Usually the JW and apprentice have a basic understanding of what expected of both of them. If I tell my apprentice to go get my tools or a coffee, No problem. It goes both way's also, I will look after him like a little puppy. I'll wipe up his tinkle spots when he makes a mess and will treat him to lunch when we get out. You need to chill cause one day you will be the JW and wondering what happened to the good ol days. It's all part of the learning experience.


See, and that, I suppose, is where the confusion lies. I don't find myself resentful of the journeymen I work with. I simply know what falls within the realm of my responsibility, and what falls within theirs. I know that it's my job to lug my tools around. I know that as the junior man on the totem pole, it's often my responsibility to lug the bulk of the company tools around. I've never had a problem with that.

I know that if you and I are working together, your tools fall within your realm of responsibility. I have no interest in them, take no responsibility for them, and leave them to you to do with what you will. Same goes for your coffee cup. You feel free to fill it up as you see fit. I choose to have nothing to do with it.

I like the term "tinkle spots". However, when I screw something up, as I have often before, the journeyman I most often work with points it out. They explain the issue at hand, why it's an issue, and often suggest a way to fix it(this is the teaching/learning thing I touched on earlier). They then leave me to fix it. It's a valuable teaching tool. When I screw up badly, I learn how much of a pain it is to fix. To date, I haven't made the same mistake twice.

Regarding lunch out: I come to work to work. I actually prefer to eat out of a lunchbox on the jobsite. And I certainly _am_ resentful of those who feel the need to try and provide for me, and am resentful of grown men who expect me to provide for them. I'm a grown man, and will look after myself. You are the same, and I expect you to do the same. I'll still hold your ladder for you when you're 35' in the air, because I don't want to see you injured, and will expect the same from you, but I don't need you to hold my hand and walk me to the urinal, nor will I do the same for you. If we're going out for lunch, I'll pick up my own tab, and you'll do the same. If I invite you out for a beer, I'll buy the first two rounds, maybe three. After that, you're on your own.

I think I may be being misread here as a troll. I'm simply making the point that it is an apprentice's job on the site to work, and to learn. That work is to be to the benefit of the company we're working for. That learning is to be for my own knowledge and advancement within the trade. Being sent on a coffee run advances neither of those goals. Convenience for the journeymen falls well down my list of priorities, and belongs there, in my opinion, for every apprentice. You're free to disagree. But there is certainly a difference between a menial task and a personal favour. If I owe you a favour, or like you enough to do that favour for you, I will. However, it certainly falls well outside my work description, and will be done, or not, solely on my personal choice. A journeyman that thinks otherwise is, in my opinion, far out of line.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I would tell the boss to get me another apprentice, your not a team player.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> I would tell the boss to get me another apprentice, your not a team player.


Did you care to expand on that? I'm confused. How does me choosing not to refill your coffee cup for you or pack your tools(your personal property) around for you not make me a team player? I'd love to hear the response of a foreman when a journeyman comes running to him to say "I can't work with that apprentice, he won't go get me coffee! That meanie, he makes me carry my own tools!" My boss, for one, would laugh you right off the jobsite.

I like working as part of the team. However, the team is a working group, and our goal, as a team, is to accomplish work. Such as installing a new system, or repairing an existing one. Each team member contributes to the whole, just as each team member has their own part to play. It strikes me as interesting that you're unwilling to play your own minor part here(such as carrying around your own tools, or filling your own coffee cup). 

I always love listening to the older journeymen I work with, who complain about the work ethic of my generation. Here, we have you, who I assume to be an experienced journeyman, who can't be bothered to haul his own tools or fill his own coffee cup without an apprentice. Do you need that apprentice to tie your boots for you, too? Maybe help with the stuck zipper on your coveralls? Where exactly does that boundary lie for you?

I play for the team, and put in as much, or more, of an effort than every other team member. However, in playing for the team, I understand the goals and objectives of the team, and I understand what falls firmly into the realm of personal responsibility. And I know that weak links of the team need to be let go. If you have a hard time packing around your own tools, you should probably look for work that doesn't require you to do so. If you can't keep your own coffee cup full, you should probably get used to going without.

Anyway, I'm pretty well done with this one. I appreciate those who responded to this thread regarding Union tool lists. I'll be popping back every now and then with some more questions regarding IBEW. For you, Loose Neutral, I appreciate that you have a differing opinion, and I'm going to take a live-and-let-live attitude toward it. However, in the future, I suggest you stop using the term "apprentice". Seems to me you're looking for more of a "nanny". I'd put a hand truck for your tool pouch and a Thermos on your Christmas list.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Most guys I know like to work hard for their money also. You seem resentful. Most folks starting out in any line of work is are expected to do menial tasks. Your not going to see a colonel buffing floors in the barracks, but I bet you will catch that private doing it. Usually the JW and apprentice have a basic understanding of what expected of both of them. If I tell my apprentice to go get my tools or a coffee, No problem. It goes both way's also, I will look after him like a little puppy. I'll wipe up his tinkle spots when he makes a mess and will treat him to lunch when we get out. You need to chill cause one day you will be the JW and wondering what happened to the good ol days. It's all part of the learning experience.


Good lord and I thought Kaboller (sp?) was insufferable. This troll character (I hope to god it only exists on the internet) has a chip on it's shoulder about a mile wide.

Somebody, a real apprentice, go fetch a pin...


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Stan B. said:


> Good lord and I thought Kaboller (sp?) was insufferable. This troll character (I hope to god it only exists on the internet) has a chip on it's shoulder about a mile wide.
> 
> Somebody, a real apprentice, go fetch a pin...


It's interesting that your first post is a comment regarding a baglicker apprentice, and containing no actual point referring to the current discussion, and you'd label me a troll. I don't know anything about Kaboller, so I couldn't comment one way or another on that. However, I don't really understand how I can be found insufferable when all I'm saying is I refuse to be a doormat for a journeyman to push around. I don't have a chip on my shoulder at all. I sincerely like my boss, and the journeymen that I work with. I'm not bothered when they ask me to clean up the site while they finish up, or when I'm the guy who lugs most of the tools/materials out to the van at the end of the day, or when I'm the guy asked to sweep the shop floor at the end of the working day. It's part of being the new guy, and the apprentice, and I accept that. That is menial work, given to those with the least time in the trade.

However, your tools are your personal property. That makes them your problem. You can lug them all around, or take what you need and put them in your pockets, or not. I don't particularly care one way or the other. My tools, similarly, are my personal property, and I'll do with them as I so desire. Don't touch my tools, and I won't touch yours. I'll never ask you to carry mine, and I won't ever carry yours because you ask(or try and instruct) me to.

Same goes for your coffee cup. Your daily coffee intake is your personal issue. If you choose to suck back a gallon a day, power to you. If you choose not to, then don't. I get paid by my boss, not my journeyman, to work for his company. Keeping a journeyman's coffee cup full doesn't help, or hurt, his company in any way, shape, or form. It's a personal favour, and is to be treated as such. I'll certainly never take time out of my working day to get you coffee. If I'm making the Tim Horton's run for myself(rarely), and you spring your change for a cup, you're certainly welcome to my passenger seat to get one as well. Maybe, if I'm in a good mood, I'll pick one up for you, but don't count on it. Most of the time, I'll just tell you to cram it.

That's not a chip on the shoulder. That's a guy who looks after himself, and expects others to do the same. I look out for others occasionally to be a nice guy, but largely on the jobsite, I look out for others for the reasons of safety and job efficiency.

It's also very telling that after having learned two things about me(I won't carry your tools and I won't fill up your coffee cup for you), you've judged me not to be a "real apprentice". It doesn't seem to matter that I get a lot of work done in a day, or that I learn fast, or that I always pay attention to you when you're giving instructions/teaching something. I'm gathering, and correct me if I'm wrong, that your requirements for an apprentice is a cross between a pack-mule and a nanny. Any other skills/abilities, or lack thereof, seem to be irrelevant.

Anyway, as I've already pointed out, I can't stop you from disagreeing. And if you find me that insufferable, feel free to not read anything I'm posting, and don't feel obligated to respond in any way.

I appreciate you re-posting and rising above a 9-year-old name-calling mentality. Thanks, Stan.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Anyway, no one's actually managed to give me a solid answer to these questions yet:

1) Why do you feel it's the responsibility of the apprentice to pack around your personal property(your tools)? Are you incapable of handling your own tool bag?

2) Why do you feel it's the responsibility of the apprentice to fill your coffee cup? How does that advance the goal of accomplishing work in any way? Are you incapable of doing it yourself?

Because this discussion continues to become more hostile, and I have no intention for it to do so, perhaps someone actually cares to make an honest attempt at answering those questions.

Then again, you may prefer to dislike me because I refuse to act like a doormat. But I'd be curious to hear a legitimate justification of that, too.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> Anyway, no one's actually managed to give me a solid answer to these questions yet:
> 
> 1) Why do you feel it's the responsibility of the apprentice to pack around your personal property(your tools)? Are you incapable of handling your own tool bag?


I don't



> 2) Why do you feel it's the responsibility of the apprentice to fill your coffee cup? How does that advance the goal of accomplishing work in any way? Are you incapable of doing it yourself?


Because someone is going for break do I send a guy that makes 48.50 an hour as an apprentices sits playing switch with his thumb, which is unhealthy, cost me money and is generally not permuted to leave a apprentice on their own

And because I (we) say so and if you don't like it take you sissy butt back to flipping burgers.



> Because this discussion continues to become more hostile, and I have no intention for it to do so, perhaps someone actually cares to make an honest attempt at answering those questions.


And this ain't hostile, that is the way it is, I have neither the time nor inclination to argue with apprentices. Do what you are told or tell the hall why you were dismissed, which could get you booted from the program.

YOUR CHOICE.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> I don't
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not a hall guy, so I'm not worried about that. Appreciate the concern, though.

I like that second answer. "Why should I do something entirely non-work related while at work?" "Because I say so, of course!" That is a boss on a power trip, and/or a journeyman with a bad attitude. I'm interested to know if you guys run sites or crews or jobs or your own businesses(I understand you fall in that group somewhere, Brian), and why you'd be inclined to pay _anyone_, whether you be paying them journeyman, apprentice, or engineer rates, to run for coffee? Don't you have better things for them to do? Like, I don't know, electrical work?

And how do you quote multiple posters/sections of a post like that? That would help me simplify some of my replies.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> Not a hall guy, so I'm not worried about that. Appreciate the concern, though.
> 
> I like that second answer. "Why should I do something entirely non-work related while at work?" "Because I say so, of course!" That is a boss on a power trip, and/or a journeyman with a bad attitude. I'm interested to know if you guys run sites or crews or jobs or your own businesses(I understand you fall in that group somewhere, Brian), and why you'd be inclined to pay _anyone_, whether you be paying them journeyman, apprentice, or engineer rates, to run for coffee? Don't you have better things for them to do? Like, I don't know, electrical work?
> .



I run a 20 man company for 27 years with 42 years in the trade, I take excellent care of ALL my employees and I have no reason to show how powerful I can be. Apprentices that do not tow the line are not worth the effort. No power trip but no BS either.

Having 20 employees is like baby sitting and the biggest babies get adopted out, cause I do not need a headache from someone that can be replaced easily. AND THAT IS THE TRUTH

You perform for me and I'll take care of you, no one yells screams or abuses apprentices, we pick them up to minimize them driving around, they get vacations, bonuses, sick leave, your car breaks down we let you drive a company vehicle, by them lunch, break and they get drive time on OT jobs, you can't or don't appreciate what I have done for you and cause trouble and don't let the door hit you in the butt.

My firm has a bad reputation of spoiling apprentices, firms that get our apprentices on transfer say they are well trained but use to the good life (everything noted above). SO power trip no, making a profit YES.

As far as quoting

At the beginning of what you want to quote


> then at the end of the section same brackets BUT and a forward slash/quote


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## IBEW98 (May 12, 2012)

The differences between non union and union goes way beyond a tool list obviously by my user name I'm union it idea into the quality of life retirement benefits the way your treated your safety rights etc it is definitely way beyond a tool list


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

brian john said:


> I run a 20 man company for 27 years with 42 years in the trade, I take excellent care of ALL my employees and I have no reason to show how powerful I can be.
> 
> You perform for me and I'll take care of you


Wanna make it a 21 man company?


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

IBEW98 said:


> The differences between non union and union goes way beyond a tool list obviously by my user name I'm union it idea into the quality of life retirement benefits the way your treated your safety rights etc it is definitely way beyond a tool list


No, I know. I'm aware of that.

But when I started in the trade, August 2010, I Google searched for a tool list to give me an idea what I should have. I found a link to this site, and an old discussion regarding tool lists. And a lot of the posters were union guys, giving examples of what they could and should, and couldn't and shouldn't, be providing on the job. I was just unsure of the reasoning for that, hence the beginning of this discussion.

I'm a third-generation electrician. My deceased granddad moved way up in the IBEW chain locally, and my dad was an IBEW guy when he started out. He speaks pretty highly of the union, but it doesn't seem to have much prominence in my region. So I'm pretty clueless about it, and thought I'd ask the question.



brian_john said:


> I run a 20 man company for 27 years with 42 years in the trade, I take excellent care of ALL my employees and I have no reason to show how powerful I can be. Apprentices that do not tow the line are not worth the effort. No power trip but no BS either.
> 
> Having 20 employees is like baby sitting and the biggest babies get adopted out, cause I do not need a headache from someone that can be replaced easily. AND THAT IS THE TRUTH
> 
> ...


Firstly, just want to see if this double-quote thing works.

Secondly, I'm understanding you to imply(hopefully I'm mistaken) that with your firm, you feel that apprentices unwilling to make a coffee run for the crew are not worth the time, regardless of abilities when it comes to quality/quantity of actual work?

I can't imagine having a crew of 20 guys and being a baby-sitter. Sounds like a hell of a headache. My boss doesn't actually have time to baby-sit. A guy that requires a baby-sitter doesn't cut it on our crew, and has to go find another job.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I don't understand why you're willing(or wanting, or whatever) to baby-sit a crew of grown men, but when an apprentice takes responsibility for himself and his work, and is interested in accomplishing work rather than being baby-sat, and isn't willing to make a run for coffee because he's of the opinion that it has no connection to actually working, he's not worth the time. I'm struggling with the concept. Care to help?

EDIT: That double-quote bit will come in handy, thanks a lot.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

local134gt said:


> Wanna make it a 21 man company?


I am now, actually I forgot I took on my daughters boyfriend as a summer helper. One of the few perks of being an owner.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

CanadianBrad said:


> Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I don't understand why you're willing(or wanting, or whatever) to baby-sit a crew of grown men, but when an apprentice takes responsibility for himself and his work, and is interested in accomplishing work rather than being baby-sat, and isn't willing to make a run for coffee because he's of the opinion that it has no connection to actually working, he's not worth the time. I'm struggling with the concept. Care to help?


You are obviously missing the point. Your an apprentice, suck it up and pick up coffee for the guys. Everybody goes through this and if your skin isn't thick enough to do that you aren't gonna last.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Secondly, I'm understanding you to imply(hopefully I'm mistaken) that with your firm, *you feel that apprentices unwilling to make a coffee run for the crew are not worth the time, regardless of abilities when it comes to quality/quantity of actual work?*
> 
> 
> EDIT: That double-quote bit will come in handy, thanks a lot.


You'd be gone so fast your butt would pass your stomach on your way home.

As a matter of fact anyone not willing to pitch in and do what is necessary can go home yesterday.

I get coffee, the lead men will get coffee, every JW will get coffee, and an apprentice that can be replaced as easily as I can fill out a pink slip will be FIRED no problem.

As I said I take care of my men but I have NO USE for PIA apprentices. In 42 years the only issue I ever saw with apprentices getting coffee, were two pin heads when I was a helper arguing because one had 2 months more time in the trade and felt he was above coffee runs. The boss put them both on the labor crew and they humped material for a few weeks.



> Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I don't understand why you're willing(or wanting, or whatever) to baby-sit a crew of grown men, but when an apprentice takes responsibility for himself and his work, and is interested in accomplishing work rather than being baby-sat, and isn't willing to make a run for coffee because he's of the opinion that it has no connection to actually working, he's not worth the time. I'm struggling with the concept. Care to help?


You are missing the point I DO NOT BABY SIT them, and an apprentice that won't get coffee is a baby.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

Well, it looks like we've hit an impasse. I will point out, just to be clear, that no one has offered legitimate reasoning for this carry my tools/run for coffee BS. If it's how you choose to run your company, that's your business, and power to you. It still does remain in the realm of personal responsibility, and for me to do it for you, a personal favour. If you believe that to be an offence worthy of termination, I wouldn't last long in your outfit, and I'm not bothered by that. Seems like kind of a sad reason to send a guy packing.

And, Brian, you did allude what you do to baby-sitting. To quote(post #84):

"Having 20 employees is like baby-sitting and the biggest babies get adopted out, cause I do not need a headache from someone that can be replaced easily."

So I guess we agree to disagree, and agree that we're both better off that I don't work for you. If I ever look for work in your neighbourhood, I'll keep that in mind.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to post a response. If you feel the need to have the last word, feel free. But both of us are pretty set on this one. Luckily, I work for a guy who feels similarly. And the one time a journeyman did try to send me for coffee, I told him where to cram it. My boss gave him directions to the nearest Tim Hortons, and told him to visit on his unpaid lunch break, in his own vehicle. When the same guy wanted me to carry his tools, before I said anything, my boss told him that I could carry HIS tools, being the company tools, and my own tools, and that the journeyman could pack around his own stuff.

But I'd be interested to know what point I'm missing, local134gt. I don't know that I'm missing it at all. I'm actually just mentioning that it's a point with no validity, because it is. No one has actually backed it up with a legitimate reason, because there isn't one. I'm not sure how that relates to the thickness of my skin in any way, but I'm sure you're going to tell me.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> Well, it looks like we've hit an impasse. I will point out, just to be clear, that no one has offered legitimate reasoning for this carry my tools/run for coffee BS.


You were told time and again and for the reason I would have to fire you YOU DO NOT LISTEN, you need to work for yourself.



> If it's how you choose to run your company, that's your business, and power to you. It still does remain in the realm of personal responsibility, and for me to do it for you, a personal favour. If you believe that to be an offence worthy of termination, I wouldn't last long in your outfit, and I'm not bothered by that. Seems like kind of a sad reason to send a guy packing.


It is not just how I run my business it is HOW ALL BUSINESS RUN. New hires, greenness, the low person on the totem pole are all GOFERs. That is their job. We do not disagree, you are just a bad employee.



> And, Brian, you did allude what you do to baby-sitting. To quote(post #84):
> 
> ".


I was alluding to having men, I do not babysit, If I have to think you are not doing what you are told and I need to discuss this with you I would be baby sitting and I give every employee 3 chances, third time you are gone.

Call it a power trip, I call it cash in my pocket without a pain in my ass.




I know I did and I am telling you I DO NOT BABY SIT.

I


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> You were told time and again and for the reason I would have to fire you YOU DO NOT LISTEN, you need to work for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope, couldn't really be interested in working for myself. My interest lies more in technical problems, and less in trying to find work to keep myself and a crew of guys busy. Seems like a lot of added stress.

Regarding legitimacy of your reasoning, "Because I said so, and I'm the boss!", while that may hold weight when sending your 6-year-old to bed, it's fairly difficult for that to hold any water when you're my boss, and you're referencing something that has nothing to do with work, which I assume is to be done on my own time, my (unpaid) break period. If you're going to pay me my full hourly wage, and send me in a company vehicle, and pay for all the coffee, that's tougher to argue with, but strikes me as a waste of time/money/resources, which I would point out, loudly and often.

And I would agree that the low man on the totem pole is usually the guy sent to get stuff. And largely, I have no problem with it at all, so long as it actually carries significance to the work being done. For the company I work for, I often run back to the shop to pick up a specific tool we need, or to get a couple extra sticks of pipe, etc., because it actually carries significance to the work being done. Usually, I'm in a hurry, too, because guys might be waiting for it.

And while you may not have intended for it to sound as if you were a baby-sitter, it does come across that way quite clearly, to me at least. Thanks for clarifying.

And I was definitely listening to your bit(more accurately, reading, I suppose), but it holds absolutely zero ground. That's why I read it, and then pointed out that you made a completely crap point. Allow me to give you a semi-legitimate point:

Sending someone for coffee improves the morale of my working crew, which in turn lessens my stress at work.

This, at least, is a thought-out reason for trying something like this. However, if your crew morale is so fragile that it rests on something as simple as a cup of coffee, clearly working conditions/pay/some larger issue needs to improve. And if you're incapable of handling your working stress, you should probably reconsider self-employment. Which makes this a semi-legitimate point at best. And it's the best that anyone can likely offer. BECAUSE THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REASONING TO IT. THERE NEVER HAS BEEN, AND THERE NEVER WILL BE. If you have an apprentice, or a journeyman, or a secretary, or anyone else willing to do that for you, then give that guy a gold star for being the Nicest Guy On The Crew. Maybe get him a sticker for his hard hat. But recognize it for what it is: a personal favour.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> Nope, couldn't really be interested in working for myself. My interest lies more in technical problems, and less in trying to find work to keep myself and a crew of guys busy. Seems like a lot of added stress.


It could be if you take lip from apprentices that won't do as they are told.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

CanadianBrad said:


> Regarding legitimacy of your reasoning, "Because I said so, and I'm the boss!", while that may hold weight when sending your 6-year-old to bed, it's fairly difficult for that to hold any water when you're my boss, and you're referencing something that has nothing to do with work, which *I assume is to be done on my own time, my (unpaid) break period.* If you're going to pay me my full hourly wage, and send me in a company vehicle, and pay for all the coffee, that's tougher to argue with, but strikes me as a waste of time/money/resources, which I would point out, loudly and often.


Break is on company time, apprentices get lunch on company time. have you ever had a job in construction>



> And I would agree that the low man on the totem pole is usually the guy sent to get stuff. A*nd largely, I have no problem with it at all, so long as it actually carries significance to the work being done.* For the company I work for, I often run back to the shop to pick up a specific tool we need, or to get a couple extra sticks of pipe, etc., because it actually carries significance to the work being done. Usually, I'm in a hurry, too, because guys might be waiting for it.


If you cannot see the significance of getting break or lunch, than we truly are banging heads, as you ONCE AGAIN do not understand what it takes to run work.


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## CanadianBrad (Feb 9, 2012)

brian john said:


> Break is on company time, apprentices get lunch on company time. have you ever had a job in construction>
> 
> My job right now currently involves a lot of construction. When I'm at work, I'm on the clock, getting paid. When I'm having lunch, I sign out, and that's my own time. I am no longer on the clock. That's pretty par for the course, at least around here.
> 
> If you cannot see the significance of getting break or lunch, than we truly are banging heads, as you ONCE AGAIN do not understand what it takes to run work.


I think we've been banging heads for a little while. Absolutely I understand the significance of lunchtime. Pretty hard to go for 12 hours without putting something in your stomach. However, every guy around here, with my company or not, is responsible for their own lunch. I think I have a better understanding of running work, and holding guys responsible for their own simple tasks. Like, say, filling a lunchbox.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

OK.:no:


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

CanadianBrad said:


> But I'd be interested to know what point I'm missing, local134gt. I don't know that I'm missing it at all. I'm actually just mentioning that it's a point with no validity, because it is.


The point is somebody has to go get coffee/lunch, so instead of sending multiple JW's to go get it why not send one apprentice?!? You get to leave a few minutes early on company time and the guys usually either leave you a few extra bucks or buy you whatever you want as a token of their appreciation. And if that doesn't satisfy you then do it because I said so! If it sounds like "I'm sending a 6 year old to bed" then maybe thats what you are acting like :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

134gt,

When I was a helper I use to get break and lunch for 20-30 men. I always got my food paid for, I always made a few bucks, like up to 15-20 a day. There was always one cheap bastard that wanted a receipt and every penny accounted for. For some reason his ordered always got screwed up.:whistling2:


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## Acadian9 (Jun 6, 2009)

An apprentice can refuse a coffee run when it's during working hours (and not related to the designated coffee break) unless the foreman or supervisor tells him to do it.

For the most part, everyone is responsible for their own hand tools. I've had journeymen carry mine while I carried the material for the day but that to me is acceptable.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I have never ever met an apprentice with more requirements than Brad. I could make a list of what I expect from an apprentice, but I don't have to. The good ones already know whats expected.
Hey look I am the first one to stand up for apprentices in regards to pranks and asking to much from them, but your are an apprentice electrician. Not trying out for a Broadway show. You are not Charlie Sheen.

What the heck is wrong the old expression "I will buy, you fly"? That was the expression I used when I wanted to get a drink or snack and was willing to buy for both of us. When I was the apprentice I jumped for guys that were like that. I treated them good and they returned the favor. When I had an apprentice I treated him with dignity and respect.

What bothers me with your comments is your "Expectations". As an apprentice your job is to keep your pie hole shut and learn. Just because you have a dumb ass JW does not give you the authority to expect anything except a pay check. If you get a pay check each week and you have more expectations, find a job at the mall.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

He's a turdball- Know it all. I think it's that Kaboler troll Guy. Stan called it from the get go.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

i could see myself saying something like, i"m going to look at the prints and figure out what we are doing. You get our tools ready to go" If an apprentice refused that, he would be down the road really quick. I could also see a situation where a JW and an appretnice would need to take a long walk but only need 1 set of tools. I could see the JW making the apprentice carry the tools. I find that acceptable. Ive heard of jobs where the forum bought coffee for the crew, so he would send the apprentice to the coffee shop. I find that acceptable. 
On the other hand, very recently, we had a crew of 5 guys on 5 different scissor lifts, making up light fixtures. 4 JW and one apprentice. One JW in perticular would yell to the apprentice to drop whatever he was doing to go grab him a part, while the JW stood on his scissor life, waiting for that part, What a lazy POS. Don't drag the job down just because you are lazy POS. Apprentice still needs to listen to his superiors, regardless


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