# 4way problem



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Just wired two sets of 4 ways. Checked everything out before I put switches back in. After putting switches back in one light won't turn off! Never saw this before


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Are you sure you are using a 4 way switch instead of a double pole switch?

You said "one light won't turn off", Are you saying that on one of the 4-way systems the light work but on the other 4-way system the light always stays on?


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

papaotis said:


> Just wired two sets of 4 ways. Checked everything out before I put switches back in. After putting switches back in one light won't turn off! Never saw this before


Hint: Is there a smoke detector on that floor? We have had home owners that have purchased a home to find out that there is a pull chain fixture in a hallway, that for "some reason never turns off" no matter how many times they try and rewire it.

Turns out the previous owner took it upon themselves to remove the life safety device and install a light there instead. :no:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I have always had a slight hiccup when doing work with/on 4ways. I am tarded.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> I have always had a slight hiccup when doing work with/on 4ways. I am tarded.


What helps with 4-ways is to use those number stickers that you put on wires. We called them Brady markers. They make them in letters so you can use T for traveler, N for neutral, H for hot, L for light. 

When properly rung out and labelled, a 4-way system is no harder than a 3-way. You just put the 4-way switch between the 2 travelers.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> What helps with 4-ways is to use those number stickers that you put on wires. We called them Brady markers. They make them in letters so you can use T for traveler, N for neutral, H for hot, L for light.
> 
> When properly rung out and labelled, a 4-way system is no harder than a 3-way. You just put the 4-way switch between the 2 travelers.


Damn you're refined into a well oiled machine. I friggin do romex sleeves and do stupid girl names for fun.....which doesn't work well with helpers. :jester:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

I would just put tape around each set of travelers. It's a 4way-one set in & one set out.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> I would just put tape around each set of travelers. It's a 4way-one set in & one set out.


I'm talking about when you don't even know which box the 4-way is supposed to go in :laughing:


I love it when homeowners pull out the switches without labelling anything and then call you in to fix it saying "It's really easy, you just have to put some switches in" :thumbup:


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Majewski said:


> Damn you're refined into a well oiled machine. I friggin do romex sleeves and do stupid girl names for fun.....which doesn't work well with helpers. :jester:


Around here all the hots seem to be called Pam. :1eye:
P&L

Or at least all the Pam's seem to be hot.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Around here all the hots seem to be called Pam. :1eye:
> P&L


I love Pam!


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I'm talking about when you don't even know which box the 4-way is supposed to go in :laughing:
> 
> 
> I love it when homeowners pull out the switches without labelling anything and then call you in to fix it saying "It's really easy, you just have to put some switches in" :thumbup:


As Mac would say "charge large". :thumbsup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Around here all the hots seem to be called Pam. :1eye:
> P&L


I love Pam!


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Wth....delayed double post? lol


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Majewski said:


> I love Pam!


Admit it ... You know more than 1 Pam :thumbsup:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

More like "known"


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Some you connect sideways and some you connect top and bottom. We had an argument about this once. 480 kindly advised me that I was misinformed...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Some you connect sideways and some you connect top and bottom. We had an argument about this once. 480 kindly advised me that I was misinformed...


The way a 4-way switch works, it doesn't matter which way you connect. 

I'm not sure what 480sparky said about it, he got mad and left.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

4 ways are the easiest switch to wire as long as its done to code.

I think theyre easier than single pole switches, so I cant see how they throw people for a loop.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> The way a 4-way switch works, it doesn't matter which way you connect.
> 
> I'm not sure what 480sparky said about it, he got mad and left.


I dunno, I changed it and it worked. I don't argue with success. Sometimes the electrical gods smile upon you  .


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I wonder if 480 made a troll account or what......


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99cents said:


> Some you connect sideways and some you connect top and bottom. We had an argument about this once. 480 kindly advised me that I was misinformed...


Ive never seen a 4 way wire sideways, not saying they dont exist, just never seen one


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

He's a liar. It doesn't exist.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Majewski said:


> He's a liar. It doesn't exist.



I think he had one of the travellers crossed up but didnt realize it


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Now with wireless switches, we don't need to go through these HORRIBLE labor intensive problems any longer!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This thread officially has AIDS.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Beast man aids.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This thread officially has AIDS.


*A*ll

*I*n

*D*aily

*S*tupidity

? ? ?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

not at the job now. Just found out how to reply


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

I would be embarrassed to ask about a 4way switch on the forum.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Will explain when I get home


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bird dog said:


> I would be embarrassed to ask about a 4way switch on the forum.


I'm commonly embarrassed.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm delusionally dysfunctioned


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Are you sure you are using a 4 way switch instead of a double pole switch?


I thought a four way is a DPDT, a three way is a SPDT.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I thought a four way is a DPDT, a three way is a SPDT.


Nope. A 4-way _resembles_ a DP*S*T switch. But the difference is that inside of the switch, instead of disconnecting the points, it reverses them.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Nope. A 4-way _resembles_ a DP*S*T switch. But the difference is that inside of the switch, instead of disconnecting the points, it reverses them.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 104642


Huh - I thought it was a DPDT with the throws jumpered internally.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

It's like a DPDT, but, instead of disconnecting internally they cross over to connect, similar to a 3way. So, internally the path is straight or crossed. A 4way can only be used with two 3ways.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Huh - I thought it was a DPDT with the throws jumpered internally.





Bird dog said:


> It's like a DPDT, but, instead of disconnecting internally they cross over to connect, similar to a 3way.




A DPDT would have 6 connections.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> A DPDT would have 6 connections.


It would except the throws are jumpered onto one terminal criss cross wise. Can't find a diagram.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

You're right Hax. Tnx for catching that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> It would except the throws are jumpered onto one terminal criss cross wise. Can't find a diagram.


I've never seen a 4-way switch with more than 4 connections.

People often get a 4-way switch confused with a DPST switch, which is why the 4-way system doesn't work.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

well im certainly glad everyone is having fun with this:thumbsup: now for the whole story! gutted house i wired, just put in the switches today. connected all the wires and cheched every switch twice. everything works as expected. put the switches in the boxes and check one more time. the light circuit works fine but the fan/light wont shut off! im no stranger to 4 way problems but this is new to me. none of the switches has any effect???????????????


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Did you run the constant hot through the fan box & accidentally hook the fan to the constant hot instead of the switch leg?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So it worked while the switches were out of the box, but stopped working correctly when you put the switches into the box?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Are you cursed with fart fans? Did you betray a fart fan sales lady witch dr?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

correct ,hax. and after pulling the switches back out it didnt make any diff


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> correct ,hax. and after pulling the switches back out it didnt make any diff


That's very, very odd. I have no clue.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> The way a 4-way switch works, it doesn't matter which way you connect.
> 
> I'm not sure what 480sparky said about it, he got mad and left.


It does matter. Different brands have the poles setup differently. I'm not exactly sure, but I think P&S has travelers from the same cable go to the screws on opposite sides, and Leviton needs them on the same side.

I might be wrong about the brands.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

agreed:huh:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

papaotis said:


> well im certainly glad everyone is having fun with this:thumbsup: now for the whole story! gutted house i wired, just put in the switches today. connected all the wires and cheched every switch twice. everything works as expected. put the switches in the boxes and check one more time. the light circuit works fine but the fan/light wont shut off! im no stranger to 4 way problems but this is new to me. none of the switches has any effect???????????????


It was a slow day for us 

Maybe one of the 3 ways is a dud ? always on ?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

How full are your boxes? Are you putting undue stress on the switch when you mount it?


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Once did a home that was 4 floors on a hillside with stairs and stairs....lots of 3-way/4-way etc.
Installed a GE LV switching panel and everyone was happy...they could even switch on outside lighting and whatever lights they wanted to switch on from their bedroom !


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

RePhase277 said:


> It does matter. Different brands have the poles setup differently. I'm not exactly sure, but I think P&S has travelers from the same cable go to the screws on opposite sides, and Leviton needs them on the same side.
> 
> I might be wrong about the brands.


Thanks for the backup, Rephase. I take back all those bad things I said about you. I'll tell Mrs. RePhase to quit phoning me.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> Thanks for the backup, Rephase. I take back all those bad things I said about you. I'll tell Mrs. RePhase to quit phoning me.


Why do you think it's "Mrs." RePhase?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> How full are your boxes? Are you putting undue stress on the switch when you mount it?


similiar to what I was thinking, also can stress switch with terminal connection, if the wire turns enough with the screw to push against plastic

I've also seen 3/ and 4/ ways not working until I loosened switch cover screws


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

99cents said:


> Thanks for the backup, Rephase. I take back all those bad things I said about you. I'll tell Mrs. RePhase to quit phoning me.


Yeah, but she won't


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

If that were the case why didn't it change when I took switches back out? No the boxes aren't overloaded according to NEC


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

papaotis said:


> If that were the case why didn't it change when I took switches back out? No the boxes aren't overloaded according to NEC


So take the 4-way(s) out and put the travelers together black to black, red to red. Do the 3-ways make the light go blinkety blink?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

The only thing I can think of to take it apart one wire at s time and see which one makes a diff. No clues from telsa?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

papaotis said:


> The only thing I can think of to take it apart one wire at s time and see which one makes a diff. No clues from telsa?


What the hell is going on here? It's a 4-way switch circuit. Take that chit apart, identify the wires, put them back on the switch on the right terminals. This brand of trolling is worse than Meadow's.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

papaotis said:


> The only thing I can think of to take it apart one wire at s time and see which one makes a diff. No clues from telsa?


Double check the conductors to make sure you dont have hidden nicks on black and red conductors if you do they will bridge it together without you knowing what got ya.

If cant find it then time to pull the megger out and find the stupid electric bug out of the freaking wall..


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey papa.,, 

what brand name switches you are using ??


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

P&S. and this is not trolling. This what actually happened. Everything that has been suggested (and I thank you) had been tried except meager. If it was a pinched wire or too much pressure from 'cram' wouldn't taking the switches out relieve the that? Again I say I'm no stranger to 3 & 4 way problems. This is a new one


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

papaotis said:


> P&S. and this is not trolling. This what actually happened. Everything that has been suggested (and I thank you) had been tried except meager. If it was a pinched wire or too much pressure from 'cram' wouldn't taking the switches out relieve the that? Again I say I'm no stranger to 3 & 4 way problems. This is a new one


I have ran into something like that at least once.,

The P&S 4 wayers the one set of travellers run in bottom screws and other set is on the top set of screws.

Those resdientail grade switch is kinda toqure twichey switch so if you put too much toqure it will crack pretty easy if ya not aware of that. 

but the other possiblty is someone ran a screw or nail and lightly hit the cable so the only way is megger that will show up or use the ohmmeter but not the best methold for touble shooting so.,,

Diveine and conquer so if you have four way in middle of the run so what you can do is unhook it and turn the soruce back on if the light stay on then work from one of the three ways side but if light dont come on then it one either side of the affected circuit.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

This all makes sense EXCEPT that it all worked right in the test before I put switches back in box and pulled them out to make no difference


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

papaotis said:


> This all makes sense EXCEPT that it all worked right in the test before I put switches back in box and pulled them out to make no difference


Ahh gotcha.,, just look at all switches box plus the light box too as well to look very carefully for hidden nicks that what is the issue.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks frenchie that is possible (but I hate to think so?)


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I am not sure I am following how a short could cause this problem. 

If the switch travelers shorted when closing the boxes, it would affect all the lights now. All the lights are down the line from the switches and travellers. 

It seems like the only way for it to affect just one light would be if that light is at the end of the line. But that's no good either, if it was at the end of the line the switched hot for that light was shorted to constant hot supply, they'd all be on at all times. Or not? 

Is it possible something was missed during testing, that light is was wired to constant hot and not connected to the switch leg? 

Very strange, I'll be interested what this turns out to be.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Mystery solved. Somebody slap me! One switch is a combo single and 3 way. I didn't break the tab! ??


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> Mystery solved. Somebody slap me! One switch is a combo single and 3 way. I didn't break the tab! ??


That doesn't explain why it worked before you put the switches into the box.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

The single pole wasn't  connected when I did the test


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

papaotis said:


> Mystery solved. Somebody slap me! One switch is a combo single and 3 way. I didn't break the tab! ??


I've never heard of that....and don't see how that could work:blink:
P&L


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

papaotis said:


> Mystery solved. Somebody slap me! One switch is a combo single and 3 way. I didn't break the tab! ??


Damm .,, if you did mention the combo switch in first place., I would mention that in first place.,, 




PlugsAndLights said:


> I've never heard of that....and don't see how that could work:blink:
> P&L


Very easy .,, the single pole switch and three way switch is on one yolk and both Leviton and Pass and Seymour made them and both have a option to break the tab to keep the switches on seperated function. 

It is the same way with common duplex receptales you break the tab so you can have one switched receptale and other half constant hot recpectale.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> The single pole wasn't connected when I did the test


I see now.

You didn't mention the combo switch. Some have a tab similar to a normal receptacle. Others have a jumper that you can remove and reinsert into the back of the device.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

A lot of info was withheld.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Papaotis.,, 

Now that mark up a lesson to know what to do next time.

I always double check the connection diagram on the combo switches to make sure what ya hitting on that.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

this was about as stupid as my guys calling me Thursday asking about what to do when they dont have a hot to a smoke alarm circuit


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Yes it was stupid. If I'd been thinking I never would have posted. But you all had fun with it my expense. My apologies to anyone inconvenienced ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Don't worry papa, I'm on your side. I make silly mistakes all the time and sometimes I need to run it by others to figure it out. Sometimes you get tunnel vision and pay so much attention to the complex part of a problem that you miss the simple issue.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

you will be fine Papa.,,

Even myself I do make a mistake once a while or doing something and not thinking straight for a moment.

sometime just take a breather and backtrack a little to see where you make a error and recifiy it to make it better.

We all learn something along the way.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

papaotis said:


> Yes it was stupid. If I'd been thinking I never would have posted. But you all had fun with it my expense. My apologies to anyone inconvenienced ?


I'm still waiting for the day I make a mistake, and it isn't stupid.

I'm working on my 20/20 foresight ... Not perfected, but I'm gettin there:thumbsup:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks for your support guys?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

That was supposed to be a thumb up!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> I'm still waiting for the day I make a mistake, and it isn't stupid.
> 
> I'm working on my 20/20 foresight ... Not perfected, but I'm gettin there:thumbsup:


I've had a few mistakes, 5 marriages only 2 for the right reasons.:001_huh:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

papaotis said:


> That was supposed to be a thumb up!





:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

Glad you found the problem :thumbsup:

On a side note my boss has different ways to identify wires by twisting them together / putting knicks on them, etc

Two knicks on the hots and neutrals passing through or feeding the box
Switch leg gets a loop twisted into the wire and twisted up with the hot
Travelers get a single knick and twisted together

He also has a specific way he demands for the wires to be laid into the box, order of termination, etc. His big deal is that you shouldn't be able to tell which one of us did what. Works out great when we go to trim.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

papaotis said:


> The single pole wasn't connected when I did the test


good troubleshooting rule

consider EVERYTHING that was changed between the time it was working til the time it wasn't working


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

readydave8 said:


> good troubleshooting rule
> 
> consider EVERYTHING that was changed between the time it was working til the time it wasn't working


I helped a friend just yesterday with that rule. His parking light fuse in his truck blew and he could get his lights working. I asked what changed because fuses don't blow for no reason. "All I did was install a new radio." I said start there. "No, that can't be it. Must be something else." About 4 hours later he called to tell me he found a wire crushed to ground behind his new stereo


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

99cents said:


> Some you connect sideways and some you connect top and bottom. We had an argument about this once. 480 kindly advised me that I was misinformed...


I believe leviton is ups & downs and legrand may be the side to sides?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Wait ..I think if memory serves , the differences are toggle vs decoras.
Decoras may be side to side.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

DPST says OFF/ON on the toggle, 4 way does not.
I always order DPST in Brown so that don't get confused with a 4 way on the job.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Leviton 1204-2 wires sideways


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Papa,
I'll "fess" up to a mistake I made only a few days ago. I was putting dimmers in and on one of them the toggle was up for "off" but the slider was up for "high". I thought I had put it in upside down but remembered that "up" was marked on the yoke of the dimmer. I checked and the "up" was pointing up. So I thought maybe they put the switch in upside down in the frame.

Rather than try anything to remove the toggle & slider I just grabbed another dimmer and was going to just swap it. When I was taking the wires off I noticed the dimmer was a 3-way!:whistling2:
All the other dimmers were single pole!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

3DDesign said:


> DPST says OFF/ON on the toggle, 4 way does not. I always order DPST in Brown so that don't get confused with a 4 way on the job.


I think this is how I was originally learned how a four-way works but there was a nice diagram of a DPDT knife switch with the terminals criss cross jumpered, I think that's more how a 4-way is made inside.


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## MCasey (Dec 7, 2016)

sparkiez said:


> Glad you found the problem :thumbsup:
> 
> On a side note my boss has different ways to identify wires by twisting them together / putting knicks on them, etc
> 
> ...


Sharpie marks are better than nicks hands down for those too thrifty for brady markers.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

MCasey said:


> Sharpie marks are better than nicks hands down for those too thrifty for brady markers.


Sharpie marks go on the Romex. Once we cut the sheathing off and get our wires in the box for the walls to go up we use the knicks.


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## MCasey (Dec 7, 2016)

sparkiez said:


> Sharpie marks go on the Romex. Once we cut the sheathing off and get our wires in the box for the walls to go up we use the knicks.


We use MC and armored far more than romex. Sharpie in silver is great on black conductors and blue is good for marking other jacket colors. Nicking jackets just could end wrong. We do many 277v lighting circuits and I would not want our people nicking the jackets on those.


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

MCasey said:


> We use MC and armored far more than romex. Sharpie in silver is great on black conductors and blue is good for marking other jacket colors. Nicking jackets just could end wrong. We do many 277v lighting circuits and I would not want our people nicking the jackets on those.


We don't use a crazy amount of MC. As far a knicking, we only knick the end of the conductor where it will be cut off. It really just depends on what we are doing. We do mostly residential though. I'll have to take some example pictures of how we do it in the various steps the next time we do a rough-in.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

sparkiez said:


> We don't use a crazy amount of MC. As far a knicking, *we only knick the end of the conductor where it will be cut off*. It really just depends on what we are doing. We do mostly residential though. I'll have to take some example pictures of how we do it in the various steps the next time we do a rough-in.


That makes sense .... You had me wondering WTF !


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

sparkiez said:


> We don't use a crazy amount of MC. As far a knicking, we only knick the end of the conductor where it will be cut off. It really just depends on what we are doing. We do mostly residential though. I'll have to take some example pictures of how we do it in the various steps the next time we do a rough-in.


I do basically the same thing. I knick it at the same time as I cut it off 
and knick it deep enough that I can still "read" the knicks on the wire 
later when the sheath is removed. Mostly only use X, N, 1, 11, & 111. 
P&L


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I do basically the same thing. I knick it at the same time as I cut it off
> and knick it deep enough that I can still "read" the knicks on the wire
> later when the sheath is removed. Mostly only use X, N, 1, 11, & 111.
> P&L


what are the 1, 11 and 111's?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

sparkiez said:


> what are the 1, 11 and 111's?


 The numbers of knicks it marked on the conductor.

I done that once a while too. 

sometime use black tape and make a band(s) too.

( some spots I used color tapes or numbers tabs )


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

sparkiez said:


> what are the 1, 11 and 111's?


 Switch location with 1 on left for multi-gang switch boxes. So for a 
2-gang in a bathroom where the box is to the right of the door, light
wire will be 1 and fan wire will be 11. Course they don't look like a
a 1, guess I should have used this key | . 
P&L


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Switch location with 1 on left for multi-gang switch boxes. So for a
> 2-gang in a bathroom where the box is to the right of the door, light
> wire will be 1 and fan wire will be 11. Course they don't look like a
> a 1, guess I should have used this key | .
> P&L


Oh, okay. I got ya. Sounds like the same thing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

All of this identifying crap is for the birds.

I only spoke about using brady markers for existing work that I had to figure out myself while being aggravated because the customer took everything apart without labeling. Closed walls and a lot of testing. In that situation the labels help a lot.

When it comes to new work, I don't label or identify much of anything. I find it easier and faster to just make the boxes up during rough. In multi-gang boxes I make up each device and wrap the ground around the wires, placing them back in the box clearly in order from left to right. I identify the wires of a 3-way switch by stripping the insulation off the point. I identify the wires of a 4-way switch by twisting the travelers from each direction together a couple times.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)




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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Popular thread....


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> All of this identifying crap is for the birds.
> 
> I only spoke about using brady markers for existing work that I had to figure out myself while being aggravated because the customer took everything apart without labeling. Closed walls and a lot of testing. In that situation the labels help a lot.
> 
> When it comes to new work, I don't label or identify much of anything. * I find it easier and faster to just make the boxes up during rough.* In multi-gang boxes I make up each device and wrap the ground around the wires, placing them back in the box clearly in order from left to right. I identify the wires of a 3-way switch by stripping the insulation off the point. I identify the wires of a 4-way switch by twisting the travelers from each direction together a couple times.


Dittos.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

marking and identifying does save time for the trim out if you are planning on adding dimmers in 
we use sharpies and scrap romex sheathing to identify switch legs that may or may not get dimmers
we also strip the end of the common for the 3 way and the ends of one set of travelers for 4 ways


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i am so glad that my temporary (hopefully) brain death has created such an interesting thread! i'm pleased with seeing all the different ways people do this :thumbsup: and i glad i got so many people thinking! continue on, if theres anything left


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## MCasey (Dec 7, 2016)

sparkiez said:


> We don't use a crazy amount of MC. As far a knicking, we only knick the end of the conductor where it will be cut off. It really just depends on what we are doing. We do mostly residential though. I'll have to take some example pictures of how we do it in the various steps the next time we do a rough-in.


Permanent marking just seems more sensible for those coming behind for repairs down the road


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