# Circuits for lighting and receptacles in houses



## Funkadelicfred (Jan 30, 2019)

Not a resi guy so I don't do many houses so I'm wondering what you guys do and why?

If I'm doing the second floor and there's a few bedrooms, we wired it like each room on it's own circuit, lights and rec's included. I'm wondering if it's easier/better to wire all lighting together on one circuit (LED's so no load issues) and then do the receptacle's together instead. This way if you trip a breaker with an appliance, you can still see and have lights.
What's the resi guys preferred method?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Several ways obviously, with budgets and preferences dictating it all.

In Canada do they have codes about that?

I personally don't like lighting on receptacle circuits for the reason you stated. If the breaker trips from something they are plugging in, the lights go off. I prefer them to stay on when the breaker trips.

Just my preference.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wiring lights on their own circuit requires more material and labor, therefore it is a premium extra.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Wiring lights on their own circuit requires more material and labor, therefore it is a premium extra.


Rules are different in Canada. If lighting is a calculated LED load, we can stretch out a circuit a lot more. It also makes it easy to fire up pigtails for temporary lighting.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Normally we will wire up the plugs on their own circuit(s), and the lighting on a separate circuit. We will pick up smoke detectors off of a lighting circuit as well, because we need smoke detectors on a circuit with something to know when the breaker is tripped.

Bathrooms usually get there own circuit for each, with lighting and the plug on one circuit per bathroom (powder rooms will sometime come off of general plug and/or lighting circuit).

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

...and then down the road someone adds a shop circuit to the house lighting...and a welder


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Normally we will wire up the plugs on their own circuit(s), and the lighting on a separate circuit. We will pick up smoke detectors off of a lighting circuit as well, because we need smoke detectors on a circuit with something to know when the breaker is tripped.
> 
> Bathrooms usually get there own circuit for each, with lighting and the plug on one circuit per bathroom (powder rooms will sometime come off of general plug and/or lighting circuit).
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


This is pretty much what we do, but we will also pick up the bathroom lighting too. Bathroom receptacles will be dedicated circuits in custom installs or might do what you do if a lower end build. Hair dryers and such are all at 1500 watts, get two women blasting away their dryers and the circuit will trip if you don't keep them on separate circuits.

In a reno, I generally put the bathroom receptacle on a separate circuit too, no AFCI requirement then 26-656(1)(a)(i).

I assume that your autocorrect changed "receptacle" to "plug" without you knowing it as you posted... <hiding> <jk>

Cheers
John


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Navyguy said:


> This is pretty much what we do, but we will also pick up the bathroom lighting too. Bathroom receptacles will be dedicated circuits in custom installs or might do what you do if a lower end build. Hair dryers and such are all at 1500 watts, get two women blasting away their dryers and the circuit will trip if you don't keep them on separate circuits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I meant to type receptacle. I'm gonna have to set up my shortcuts on my phone so when I type plug it turns into receptacle. 

My understanding of 26-656(1)(a)(i) means as long as there are no other receptacles on the circuit, which is why we usually put the lighting on with the receptacle.

Custom homes are a totally different ball game. They could end up with 1 circuit for light, 1 circuit for receptacle, 1 circuit for the tub, and 1 circuit for floor heating. Those kinds of jobs are more thought out.


It also depends on how cheap they want it done.

Reason for bathroom lighting being in with the bathroom receptacle is with most homes, we use LED lights, so there is nearly no lighting load. Sure, if you trip the breaker you're in the dark, but if you're using that much power in the bathroom, you won't be in the shower...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> My understanding of 26-656(1)(a)(i) means as long as there are no other receptacles on the circuit, which is why we usually put the lighting on with the receptacle.


Agreed, but some people interpret it as all the bathroom receptacles (first floor, second floor, powder room, etc). To me, even if it is allowed, you are still going to trip the breaker as soon as the curling iron is turned on; so no other "non bathroom" receptacles.

Cheers
John


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

(Canadian Code) The bathroom arc fault exception code is only for the required receptacle installed within 1 meter of the sink. Of course lighting or the fan can be on that circuit too. Any other receptacle in a bathroom (like one for a bidet or sewage pump or any other receptacle in there) must be on an AFCI)


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

When I wired new homes we put lights and receptacles together to keep up production. It is faster, however it's a toss up whether or not it's cheaper since lighting circuits don't need to be on arc fault breakers but then you have to factor in the extra wire, additional breakers and labor. 

But personally, I like to separate them. And I like to keep lights OFF arc fault breakers.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

lighting circuits don't need to be on arc fault breakers [/QUOTE]


NEC says they do, is that local exception?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Not in the 2017. Code says outlets or devices, not lights. 210.12(A)


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Not in the 2017. Code says outlets or devices, not lights. 210.12(A)


According to the code, an outlet is a Light and must be on arc fault


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

What's the code reference?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

electricalwiz said:


> According to the code, an outlet is a Light and must be on arc fault


To be picky, I think a light is an outlet but an outlet is not necessarily a light.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

From Article 100 



> Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
> taken to supply utilization equipment.





> Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric
> energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating,
> lighting, or similar purposes.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> What's the code reference?


in the definitions 
It is weird because we think of receptacles and outlets as one thing and lights as something different but looking at the definition anywhere electricity leaves or being used is an outlet 
but yet there are places where lights are called luminaries as if there is a difference


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

splatz said:


> To be picky, I think a light is an outlet but an outlet is not necessarily a light.


I think you are correct


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

electricalwiz said:


> ...but yet there are places where lights are called luminaries as if there is a difference


yes also from article 100



> Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire.


and 



> Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light
> source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts
> designed to position the light source and connect it to the
> power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light
> ...


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

You are correct. I would've never looked at the definitions. 

The wording is weird there, Why would they not directly say lighting or branch circuits for lighting? In other parts of the code it's very clear when it talks about lighting circuits or luminaries.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Navyguy said:


> Agreed, but some people interpret it as all the bathroom receptacles (first floor, second floor, powder room, etc). To me, even if it is allowed, you are still going to trip the breaker as soon as the curling iron is turned on; so no other "non bathroom" receptacles.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I agree... Bathrooms circuits can load up real fast. In my house the little lady uses a portable heater to stay warm when she comes out of the shower and a blow dryer or curling iron at the same time. It barely leaves much capacity for my bathroom to even charge my shaver.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Wiring lights on their own circuit requires more material and labor, therefore it is a premium extra.


If your wiring a new home what rooms can be wired in 14 for receptacle loads?
I know that receptacles in bed rooms & hall ways can be on 15 amp circuits and living rooms used to be fine, probably still are same for entry ways. Any other rooms would be a 20 amp circuit. If you think about it that's a very large part of a house wired in 14 and would save lots of money and would be more competitive. Even separating out the lights and plugs in those areas would require an extra circuit breaker.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The best part of combining them is you can label the breaker "plugs and lites"


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

MTW said:


> The best part of combining them is you can label the breaker "plugs and lites"


Ha ! wha wha wha 

...or Conv and no one knows what that means


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MHElectric said:


> You are correct. I would've never looked at the definitions.
> 
> The wording is weird there, Why would they not directly say lighting or branch circuits for lighting? In other parts of the code it's very clear when it talks about lighting circuits or luminaries.


Don't feel bad. Nobody in Canada knows what "plugs" means. That's well over 1000 people.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

eddy current said:


> (Canadian Code) The bathroom arc fault exception code is only for the required receptacle installed within 1 meter of the sink. Of course lighting or the fan can be on that circuit too. Any other receptacle in a bathroom (like one for a bidet or sewage pump or any other receptacle in there) must be on an AFCI)


I agree that is the correct interpretation of that rule, but I have followed too many guys in and found it not wired that way. Mostly I have seen (perhaps it is a local contractor) all the bathroom receptacles on one circuit (no AFCI), then the lights and EF on withe the general lighting.

Before AFCI, it was common to put lights, EF and receptacle all on the same circuit and more often then not on with something else.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

splatz said:


> Don't feel bad. Nobody in Canada knows what "plugs" means. That's well over 1000 people.


With the recent increase of immigration, we are now up to 1500 I think! That is enough to man three canoes and still have people calling the shots ashore!

Cheers
John


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> (Canadian Code) The bathroom arc fault exception code is only for the required receptacle installed within 1 meter of the sink. Of course lighting or the fan can be on that circuit too. Any other receptacle in a bathroom (like one for a bidet or *sewage pump* or any other receptacle in there) must be on an AFCI)


A sewage pump should also be exempt from the AFCI requirements. I find it weird that a sump pump is exempt, but not a sewage pump. If a sewage pump circuit breaker trips, you could easily end up with sewage flooding a basement... 



Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

The fact that a sump pump is exempt speaks to reliability of AFCI breakers.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> A sewage pump should also be exempt from the AFCI requirements. I find it weird that a sump pump is exempt, but not a sewage pump. If a sewage pump circuit breaker trips, you could easily end up with sewage flooding a basement...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


The difference is a sump pump runs when water naturally flows under the house and can happen when no one is home.
A sewage pump only runs when people provide the sewage. If your sewage pump is not working, I doubt you will continue to use it and flood your basement


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> The difference is a sump pump runs when water naturally flows under the house and can happen when no one is home.
> 
> A sewage pump only runs when people provide the sewage. If your sewage pump is not working, I doubt you will continue to use it and flood your basement


I don't watch a washing machine when it's running. Most washing machines are in basements. Sewage pits don't empty 100% of the sewage out. A toilet would be the lowest point (except for a floor drain which may or may not have a backflow valve).

It very well could trip the breaker and no one know, and put a load of laundry on to wash and discover sewage water when they return.

Just saying, it is entirely possible to not know and end up with a disaster.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Call it a sewage sump and you're good to go.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

It is funny how this goes in spurts... I did a bunch of sewage pumps, now have not touched one in years either. I always tended to put the sump and sewage receptacles side by side and never AFCI them. I posted some pics on here about it once and the discussion went from AFCI to flush covers...

The inspector and I agreed that the sewage pump was just as important as the sump pump.

Cheers
John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> The difference is a sump pump runs when water naturally flows under the house and can happen when no one is home.
> A sewage pump only runs when people provide the sewage. If your sewage pump is not working, I doubt you will continue to use it and flood your basement


Many people don't go in their basement for long periods of time, especially now that washers and dryers are put on the first or second floor more often.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Sewage pumps, sump pumps, furnaces, boilers and other critical loads are always exempt from AFCI rules in my code regardless of what the NEC says.

A few years back I installed some sump pump outlets for someone. He had a river running under his house, basically. He said in no uncertain terms "You're not putting those on a GFI outlet." I gladly obliged.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

Over many years we have evolved. Once we used 20 amp circuits for everything perhaps 8 openings per circuit. 

When code changed requiring each device to count as two conductor allowance boxes started getting crowded. Started using #14 for lighting. When LED took over the market, 15 amps were enough to light a whole home, but I do break it up into 4 or 5 lighting circuits so the whole house isn't dark should it trip.

Outlets are divided to place 3 or 4 circuits for counter outlets, one for each bath outlet(s)

General purpose outlets can have possibly 10 per 20 amp circuit. 

For years if the house didn't have central air, we'd have a dedicated outlet for a window AC unit at each bedroom & living room. 

Laundry gets dedicated circuit, as does refrigerator, dishwasher, Pig, Furnace.

NEC spells out what is required. I try to exceed NEC minimums.

I do separate lighting from receptacle circuits. You run a lot of cable for switching, boxes are less crowded, it isn't as hard to meet box fill requirements with #14. A 9 watt light doesn't need 2400 watt cable supplying. Home occupants can put some wild load combinations where they can plug in. Receptacles warrant 20 amp circuits.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Willie B said:


> Started using #14 for lighting. When LED took over the market, 15 amps were enough to light a whole home, but I do break it up into 4 or 5 lighting circuits so the whole house isn't dark should it trip.
> 
> Outlets are divided to place 3 or 4 circuits for counter outlets, one for each bath outlet(s)
> 
> ...


:sleep1:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hi Steve.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> It is funny how this goes in spurts... I did a bunch of sewage pumps, now have not touched one in years either. I always tended to put the sump and sewage receptacles side by side and never AFCI them. I posted some pics on here about it once and the discussion went from AFCI to flush covers...
> 
> The inspector and I agreed that the sewage pump was just as important as the sump pump.
> 
> ...


That's the wrong cover plate, and the screws are driving me crazy :biggrin:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Willie B said:


> Pig


What? 

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> What?


It's what Chicken Steve calls the garbage disposal. 

https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001028.html
@CoolWill You were dead on :biggrin:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I don't watch a washing machine when it's running. Most washing machines are in basements. Sewage pits don't empty 100% of the sewage out. A toilet would be the lowest point (except for a floor drain which may or may not have a backflow valve).
> 
> It very well could trip the breaker and no one know, and put a load of laundry on to wash and discover sewage water when they return.
> 
> ...


I have only seen a sewage pump for a bathroom in a residential application. Never seen a sewage pump for laundry. Not saying it isn’t possible it’s just that when I think sewage pump in a dwelling, I assume it’s for a small washroom someone added in their basement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I have only seen a sewage pump for a bathroom in a residential application. Never seen a sewage pump for laundry. Not saying it isn’t possible it’s just that when I think sewage pump in a dwelling, I assume it’s for a small washroom someone added in their basement.


Some houses need pumps for the entire house, to get out to the sewer. 

As for the smaller pumps, they are often used for the laundry. They make slop sinks with the pump built right in. Many people use these for the washer to dump into.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

eddy current said:


> I have only seen a sewage pump for a bathroom in a residential application. Never seen a sewage pump for laundry. Not saying it isn’t possible it’s just that when I think sewage pump in a dwelling, I assume it’s for a small washroom someone added in their basement.


My mom has a laundry sink pump. It isn't a sewage pump though. But it is for the washing machine in the basement... she has no sump pump so if it fails, the basement will have water. But with this, it's only laundry water not sewer water.

A new 4000 square foot home we wired had a sewage pit and pump for the basement plumbing. Full bathroom, kitchen, and laundry. Inspector permitted us to not AFCI the sewage pump. Sewage pump is to get all the basement items up to the septic. 

Houses in the country side will have some sort of sewage pump if they have anything in their basement.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

eddy current said:


> I have only seen a sewage pump for a bathroom in a residential application. Never seen a sewage pump for laundry. Not saying it isn’t possible it’s just that when I think sewage pump in a dwelling, I assume it’s for a small washroom someone added in their basement.


They are quite common in cities, especially in cities built on hills. In SF it's very common in the basements to have pits and sewage pumps. I think last year alone I worked on around 20 different buildings on the electrical/controls for the pumps.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> Sewage pumps, sump pumps, furnaces, boilers and other critical loads are always exempt from AFCI rules in my code regardless of what the NEC says.


Maybe in the PEC  Unfortunately, your state just stuffed all that, the basement, bathrooms and garage up your a$$ for new AFCI requirements. How do we get away with wiring a new house without a permit?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's what Chicken Steve calls the garbage disposal.
> 
> https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001028.html
> 
> @CoolWill You were dead on :biggrin:



Holy Doxxing Batman!!! This is scary that Hax can pull 2001 threads out of his memory bank............


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

You guys living where the world is flat amaze me. Here almost all new systems pump effluent. 

Typical new home in Vermont: sewage gravity feeds from your toilet to a septic tank 1000 gallons. Baffles prevent the floaters, and the sinkers from passing through. Bacteria works to degrade organics in this tank. Liquid & stuff neutrally buoyant flow through to the next tank. The engineer has designed a given volume to flood the leach field. Float switches are set to those depths. As the effluent tank fills to specified volume, the pump floods the entire leach field. 

To the woodchucks in VT this is a sewage pump. It is inside an underground tank, not required to have AFCI or GFCI protection.

These systems do have an extra float using low voltage to detect effluent tank level. If it gets too deep, the alarm goes off. Depending where the control/transformer box is located, it may require AFCI &/or GFCI protection.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

*Appropriate*

Heh heh...willie...heh heh :vs_OMG:


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

@Willie B this is a sewage pump...









What you are talking about is a septic pump...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> It's what Chicken Steve calls the garbage disposal.
> 
> https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001028.html
> 
> @*CoolWill* You were dead on :biggrin:


At least we can finally understand him.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Wiring lights on their own circuit requires more material and labor, therefore it is a premium extra.


When I do resi, I do lights on #14 now that LEDs don’t draw much current and receps on #12. Since lights tend to bump up high and receps tend to bump down low, I don’t know that it’s all that much more labor and cheaper #14 helps mitigate the materials cost.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> When I do resi, I do lights on #14 now that LEDs don’t draw much current and receps on #12. Since lights tend to bump up high and receps tend to bump down low, I don’t know that it’s all that much more labor and cheaper #14 helps mitigate the materials cost.


#12 for outlet circuits is a premium extra as well. That is not common for residential work.

A typical house has #14 for all lights and all outlets other than the ones that require 20A. Coming out of the nearest outlet box in the room to feed the light switch is easier and uses less wire than running a circuit thru the various rooms to feed the lights separately.

How you do it depends on the situation. Are you working for someone who wants things done the better way and is willing to pay for it? Or is it the other 99.99% of the time in which they just want it done as cheap as possible and the contractors have to bid it to minimum code.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> #12 for outlet circuits is a premium extra as well. That is not common for residential work.



I know that but I hate it. Lucky for me that I don’t really need work and unless I really like a job, if they want #14 convenience circuits, they can hire someone else. 


Live in a house for any appreciable time and you will at some point wish you had spent a few hundred bucks more for #12 in some place you hadn’t predicted when you built the place. If a customer can’t see that logic, I don’t need the headache. I get enough headaches anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> I know that but I hate it. Lucky for me that I don’t really need work and unless I really like a job, if they want #14 convenience circuits, they can hire someone else.


 One of the things I always liked about doing resi sidework many years ago was dealing with #14 wire. Such a pleasure after a full day of #12. So much easier to deal with in single gang boxes and lights.



> Live in a house for any appreciable time and you will at some point wish you had spent a few hundred bucks more for #12 in some place you hadn’t predicted when you built the place. If a customer can’t see that logic, I don’t need the headache. I get enough headaches anyway.


 This might be something that you have noticed, but not me. The only issue I ever see is in really old houses when a single 15A circuit feeds over half of the outlets, they will trip breakers when running 3 window ACs. 

Personally, if I was going to build a customer house for myself, I would go with 15A outlet circuits, I would just use more of them. Just my opinion.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

6’ of wall. Space heaters, hair dryers, big fish tanks, never duty vacuums, all sorts of things are better off with #12. 

#14 is a lot easier to work with, I’ll give you that for sure.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> 6’ of wall. Space heaters, hair dryers, big fish tanks, never duty vacuums, all sorts of things are better off with #12.


I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that it hasn't popped up in my experience. Most of the houses in my area are older and not to current code, meaning the bathroom and kitchen circuits are shared with the rest of the house, and so on. And it's still not a big issue other than the window AC thing.

If someone has a specialty item then we would install a dedicated circuit for it.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> One of the things I always liked about doing resi sidework many years ago was dealing with #14 wire. Such a pleasure after a full day of #12. So much easier to deal with in single gang boxes and lights.
> 
> This might be something that you have noticed, but not me. The only issue I ever see is in really old houses when a single 15A circuit feeds over half of the outlets, they will trip breakers when running 3 window ACs.
> 
> Personally, if I was going to build a customer house for myself, I would go with 15A outlet circuits, I would just use more of them. Just my opinion.


We just finished building our house a little while ago, everything that can be #14 is, I personally dont see the need for #12, at least in my house nothing draws any power outside of the kitchen and bath
Like you said #14 is so much easier to work with


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> #12 for outlet circuits is a premium extra as well. That is not common for residential work.
> 
> A typical house has #14 for all lights and all outlets other than the ones that require 20A. Coming out of the nearest outlet box in the room to feed the light switch is easier and uses less wire than running a circuit thru the various rooms to feed the lights separately.
> 
> How you do it depends on the situation. Are you working for someone who wants things done the better way and is willing to pay for it? Or is it the other 99.99% of the time in which they just want it done as cheap as possible and the contractors have to bid it to minimum code.


It seems like everything you do is considered "Premium Extra" :smile:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Houses in my area have been wired to basic code here since the post-war building boom when most of our housing stock was built. That tradition continues to this very day. I have honestly say I have not seen a professional do it in resi new construction, even high end, nor have I done it. Only handy-hacks and carpenters playing electrician use #12 for everything.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Coming out of the nearest outlet box in the room to feed the light switch is easier and uses less wire than running a circuit thru the various rooms to feed the lights separately.


It was nice when we could run the feeds to the light and just install a switch loop. Now we have to have a neutral in every switch box... limits your options for 3-ways / 4-ways and no more switch loops.

Going back to tagging off the nearest receptacle seems like a good idea, but then we have the "12 device rule" for circuits that combine lights and receptacles... I think if you are installing lots of pots or wall sconces in a bedroom(s), it still might be cost effective to separate out the lighting loads under our (Canadian) code rules.

Cheers
John


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

Receptacles are near the floor. I can supply a lot of them fast. I can't predict what will be plugged in. I walk along with a Hole Hog, I've drilled the whole unit for receptacles in 10 minutes. Supply them all with 12/2 WG NM-B, I've roughed in a home for receptacles pretty quick. Lighting in every home is complex. I have had as many as 8 switches to control a light. Thats without getting into automation. I can run incredible lengths of three & four conductor cable if Mrs. Smith gets all creative. Worse still, Mrs Smith hires Antoine as her lighting designer, it gets unworkable to blend receptacle circuits with lighting.

It simplifies my job to isolate receptacles from lighting. I recently did a single family house to sell built for a famous couple you've likely heard of. They threw 100% of their confidence into the carpenter. With his guidance a homeowner will now have to flip 9 switches in 7 locations to turn off the kitchen lights. The Chinese pendant lights over the island (3) have been shortened so you can see under them, lengthened to where they near touch the 36" high island, then raised to 7'. The owner, carpenter, and interior decorator were vying for control. Best I can tell they all won. They all blame me. I said above eye level from the beginning.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Generally I would have a 15 amp circuit for each bedroom. Lighting would be a separate 15 amp circuit and have smokes attached to it


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Willie B said:


> Receptacles are near the floor. I can supply a lot of them fast. I can't predict what will be plugged in. I walk along with a Hole Hog, I've drilled the whole unit for receptacles in 10 minutes. Supply them all with 12/2 WG NM-B, I've roughed in a home for receptacles pretty quick. Lighting in every home is complex. I have had as many as 8 switches to control a light. Thats without getting into automation. I can run incredible lengths of three & four conductor cable if Mrs. Smith gets all creative. Worse still, Mrs Smith hires Antoine as her lighting designer, it gets unworkable to blend receptacle circuits with lighting.
> 
> It simplifies my job to isolate receptacles from lighting. I recently did a single family house to sell built for a famous couple you've likely heard of. They threw 100% of their confidence into the carpenter. With his guidance a homeowner will now have to flip 9 switches in 7 locations to turn off the kitchen lights. The Chinese pendant lights over the island (3) have been shortened so you can see under them, lengthened to where they near touch the 36" high island, then raised to 7'. The owner, carpenter, and interior decorator were vying for control. Best I can tell they all won. They all blame me. I said above eye level from the beginning.



Hi Chicken Steve. :vs_cool:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MTW said:


> Houses in my area have been wired to basic code here since the post-war building boom when most of our housing stock was built. That tradition continues to this very day. I have honestly say I have not seen a professional do it in resi new construction, even high end, nor have I done it. Only handy-hacks and carpenters playing electrician use #12 for everything.


Nice to hear that from an experienced electrician (and others have mentioned in this thread).
15A for receptacles is common up here. From what I've seen on the 'internet' , I thought all of the US was 20A for recepts and I figured that was because you could put an unlimited amount of recepts (we are limited to 12 here)


I guess you can't believe everything you hear on the internet :biggrin:


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

emtnut said:


> Nice to hear that from an experienced electrician (and others have mentioned in this thread).
> 15A for receptacles is common up here. From what I've seen on the 'internet' , I thought all of the US was 20A for recepts and I figured that was because you could put an unlimited amount of recepts (we are limited to 12 here)
> 
> 
> I guess you can't believe everything you hear on the internet :biggrin:


My father owned a code book, never read any part. He was initiated into the industrial electrical world at a time when inspectors hadn't yet been born. The people who paid him had one criteria: NO DOWN TIME! 

He wired better than he had to when he converted to residential work. Each box got a piece of cable to the basement. It was fast, the other trades moved along without interruption. 

In the basement he placed J boxes. nearly all of them were fitted with a pull chain porcelain light. 

Later as loads increased we mostly supplied each of 10? J boxes with three wire cable. A QO220 breaker supplied 4800 watts of load at 120 volts. Yes, it was all #12. 

Later circuits got complex. Where the homes dad wired were chalets & ranches, I see convoluted BIG homes. Nothing unusual to see 8 switches for one light. I had one lady insist that ALL outside lights be controlled together. There were 9 doors to go outside plus she wanted a switch in a closet she would hide in if she thought there might be a prowler. 17 outside lights were all controlled by any one of 10 switches. I can't justify #12 for that nonsense. These days I'd factor 340 watts of LED power.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> Nice to hear that from an experienced electrician (and others have mentioned in this thread).
> 15A for receptacles is common up here. From what I've seen on the 'internet' , I thought all of the US was 20A for recepts and I figured that was because you could put an unlimited amount of recepts (we are limited to 12 here)
> 
> 
> I guess you can't believe everything you hear on the internet :biggrin:


Your last sentence is made to be a joke, but it is actually very true. It’s only on the Internet where you hear this type of thing. In the real world, houses don’t have 20 amp general use circuits. And electrician don’t turn down customers who don’t want 20 amp general use circuits in their house.

Sure, there’s a few outliers here and there, but we’re talking a millionth of a percent of the houses in America.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

HackWork said:


> Your last sentence is made to be a joke, but it is actually very true. It’s only on the Internet where you hear this type of thing. In the real world, houses don’t have 20 amp general use circuits. And electrician don’t turn down customers who don’t want 20 amp general use circuits in their house.
> 
> Sure, there’s a few outliers here and there, but we’re talking a millionth of a percent of the houses in America.


I did about 25 years ago. Losing a few jobs 'cause somebody else was a bit cheaper, I modified. I still wire receptacle circuits with #12, I've been known to pick up an occasional receptacle on a #14 circuit, I can usually supply more power on fewer CAFCI breakers with #12.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Willie B said:


> I did about 25 years ago. Losing a few jobs 'cause somebody else was a bit cheaper, I modified. I still wire receptacle circuits with #12, I've been known to pick up an occasional receptacle on a #14 circuit, I can usually supply more power on fewer CAFCI breakers with #12.
> _:vs_cool:
> ~CS~ _


:vs_wave: Hi Steve :vs_wave:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Those of us here who work in old areas have a different view because we have direct real-world experience with this. The houses that we work in have a single 15A circuit that powers half of the house. I'm not kidding when I say that it is common to change out an electrical panel and when labelling the new one we find a circuit that powers some basement outlets, all the kitchen outlets, the bathrooms, half the living room, two and a half bedrooms, and attic lights.

These older houses are the ones that need the window AC units because they don't have central AC, and space heaters because they are under-insulated. Yet there is no issue. Every once in a while someone will try to run 3 window ACs and trip the circuit, so we come and run a dedicated circuit to one of them.

A "newer" house built in the last 30-40 years with lots of separate circuits doesn't have this issue.

So when people talk about needing 20A circuits in each room, it's just crazytalk to us. To me, it's like running conduit in a house. It's only "better" to the guy who it makes feel good installing it.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

I see something very different from what you describe. Amateur wired, or electricians without conscience.

I'm never happy adding load to an unknown circuit. Working on an old home now. An 1850 home was first wired as RURAL ELECTRIFICATION. a 1938 Roosevelt program. The whole thing was once wired in BX. I'd guess one switch & 1 light per room. I believe two circuits initially. Dozens of extensions have been tapped by amateurs. ALL these old connections are twisted & taped. 

As load increases, the 15 amp #14 BX has held up, except in the connections. Some of them show signs of heating. 

In a different scenario, VT has many thousands of mobile homes. These typically have daisy chained back wired receptacles & switches. Plug an air conditioner, space heater, Have a carpenter with power tools & compressor, these receptacles will burn. I've seen a dozen fires that that were put out before spreading throughout the home. How many other burned out trailers were caused by shoddy electrical work, I don't know. 

I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Willie B said:


> I see something very different from what you describe. Amateur wired, or electricians without conscience.


 Again, this is only on the internet where people think that houses wired without 20A circuits everywhere is "Amateur wired, or electricians without conscience". It's not the real world, not even close.



> I'm never happy adding load to an unknown circuit.


 But everyone else in the world is happy doing it, and safe. They plug electrical items into outlets and go on with their life. They do not call an electrician to come do a load calc before plugging something into one of their outlets. 



> Working on an old home now. An 1850 home was first wired as RURAL ELECTRIFICATION. a 1938 Roosevelt program. The whole thing was once wired in BX. I'd guess one switch & 1 light per room. I believe two circuits initially. Dozens of extensions have been tapped by amateurs. ALL these old connections are twisted & taped.
> 
> As load increases, the 15 amp #14 BX has held up, except in the connections. Some of them show signs of heating.
> 
> ...


Installing 20A general use circuits in a house is not a solution to anything other than making you feel good over an issue that you invented in your head. 

Conflating not using 20A circuits with fires in trailers due to bad connections made by unskilled factory workers decades ago shows how insane this discussion is.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Willie B said:


> I'm never happy adding load to an unknown circuit.



This^

I do actually have some down time for a week or so and I am enjoying the piss out of it. Last time I wasn’t booked out at least a month was 2008.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Those of us here who work in old areas have a different view because we have direct real-world experience with this. The houses that we work in have a single 15A circuit that powers half of the house. I'm not kidding when I say that it is common to change out an electrical panel and when labelling the new one we find a circuit that powers some basement outlets, all the kitchen outlets, the bathrooms, half the living room, two and a half bedrooms, and attic lights.
> 
> These older houses are the ones that need the window AC units because they don't have central AC, and space heaters because they are under-insulated. Yet there is no issue. Every once in a while someone will try to run 3 window ACs and trip the circuit, so we come and run a dedicated circuit to one of them.
> 
> ...


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

If you're a service electrician with truck stock to maintain, it might make sense to only carry #12 because it will work for 15 or 20 amp circuits. In fact, that's what I do. But if you're a new construction contractor, unless #12 is spec'd, you're throwing money away using it. No one will gain anything in that extra 5 amps. 

I rewired a flooded house recently. Each bedroom on it's own 15 amp circuit, including the light. Living room 15 amp circuit with the light on same, as well as the porch light. Kitchen, dining, laundry, bath and garage lighting was one 15 amp circuit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


>


It touched me on my anus. And I hate it so much that when customers ask for it I tell them that I won't work for them.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> It touched me on my anus. And I hate it so much that when customers ask for it I tell them that I won't work for them.


#12 Huh? I had you pegged as more of a 500KCML up the ass kind of guy. 


I learn something new every day.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> #12 Huh? I had you pegged as more of a 500KCML up the ass kind of guy.
> 
> 
> I learn something new every day.


You only asked about #12.

This forum doesn't have enough bandwidth for me to list everything.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I had no idea that this forum was populated by so many semi-closeted gay guys.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Nice to hear that from an experienced electrician (and others have mentioned in this thread).
> 15A for receptacles is common up here. From what I've seen on the 'internet' , I thought all of the US was 20A for recepts and I figured that was because you could put an unlimited amount of recepts (we are limited to 12 here)



15 amp receptacle circuits are extremely common. I think your confusion must be our 20 amp requirements, which are for the kitchen, dining room, laundry, bathroom and now garage. But besides those areas which have specific requirements for 20 amp circuits, everything else can be 15 amp. For you guys in Canada it must be weird because you're so used to the whole house being 15 amps for everything.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Those of us here who work in old areas have a different view because we have direct real-world experience with this. The houses that we work in have a single 15A circuit that powers half of the house. I'm not kidding when I say that it is common to change out an electrical panel and when labelling the new one we find a circuit that powers some basement outlets, all the kitchen outlets, the bathrooms, half the living room, two and a half bedrooms, and attic lights.


This is true. I have been looking at a lot of older houses lately, and they are all wired with 3-6 circuits originally, usually the old cloth romex without a ground. All 15 amps or maybe one circuit will be 20 amps for the kitchen counter if it's within the right time frame. There will usually be a few add-ons for the washer or maybe a microwave. But that's about it. Those houses functioned fine for 50+ years with that setup and still do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> For you guys in Canada it must be weird because you're so used to the whole house being 15 amps for everything.


Canada goes against science.

They can also have 1-1/2" drains in their stall showers. If you ask any American, they will tell you outright that having less than 2" in a stall shower will cause it to overflow.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

MTW said:


> This is true. I have been looking at a lot of older houses lately, and they are all wired with 3-6 circuits originally, usually the old cloth romex without a ground. All 15 amps or maybe one circuit will be 20 amps for the kitchen counter if it's within the right time frame. There will usually be a few add-ons for the washer or maybe a microwave. But that's about it. Those houses functioned fine for 50+ years with that setup and still do.


Do you guys have Levittown in New England
Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York have Levitt built houses 
They consisted of 50 amp for the range, 30 amp for Dryer, two 20 amp counter, and I think two 15 amp to do the rest of the house, 
House would be roughly 1000 sq ft with oil heat and no AC, still going strong 60 years later

The fact of 20 amp circuits all thru a house is crazy, nothing is plugged into these receptacles except a clock and tv


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> #12 Huh? I had you pegged as more of a 500KCML up the ass kind of guy.
> 
> 
> I learn something new every day.


I eagerly await the day you learn to land a comeback.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

electricalwiz said:


> Do you guys have Levittown in New England
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York have Levitt built houses
> They consisted of *50 amp for the range, 30 amp for Dryer*, two 20 amp counter, and I think two 15 amp to do the rest of the house,
> House would be roughly 1000 sq ft with oil heat and no AC, still going strong 60 years later
> ...


99.99% of houses in my area (and I believe New England) have natural gas, so no electric range, dryer, or water heater.

A while back I made a thread here about troubleshooting a main breaker tripping. I told the homeowner to turn on absolutely everything in the house. All lights, TVs, washer/dryer, dishwasher, microwave, etc. etc.. They had an electric fireplace and a space heater in the kitchen.

It was a pretty large house. I measured the service conductors, a peak of 16A on 1 leg and 32A on the other.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> Do you guys have Levittown in New England
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York have Levitt built houses
> They consisted of 50 amp for the range, 30 amp for Dryer, two 20 amp counter, and I think two 15 amp to do the rest of the house,
> House would be roughly 1000 sq ft with oil heat and no AC, still going strong 60 years later
> ...



No actual Levittowns here, but lots of cookie cutter housing from the same time frame. Gas heat and appliances are common everywhere in urban areas, but even today many streets don't have gas lines in the city, so those will have oil heat and electric appliances. That being said, propane has displaced oil as the alternative where no gas exists these days. 

Any production housing post-war here will be wired with bare minimum circuitry, as I said earlier. Central a/c is not common here unless the house was built in the last 15-20 years. We are still very much the land of window a/c's.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

*Backhoe pins*



JoeSparky said:


> :vs_wave: Hi Steve :vs_wave:


I don't know Steve. I take your remarks as an insult, but I don't know what sort. 

I gather differing opinions are not welcome?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Willie B said:


> I gather differing opinions are not welcome?


Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But if your opinion is that electrician who install 15A general use circuits in a house are amateurs, do not have a conscience, and are causing a problem- then you have to accept the majority of people thinking you are foolish, and some of them telling you so.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Aside from the kitchen, I generally install 15 amp circuits for most everything else except dedicated appliances. The only time I’m running 20 amp circuits for receptacles in living rooms or bedrooms is in apts where who knows what the hell their plugging in or where. (And the budget allows for it) just solves some problems. Been in property management for a long time. Individual home runs for 20 amp circuits for window shakers works too if the customer is smart enough to say “I want it here”.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

HackWork said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> 
> But if your opinion is that electrician who install 15A general use circuits in a house are amateurs, do not have a conscience, and are causing a problem- then you have to accept the majority of people thinking you are foolish, and some of them telling you so.


Did I say what you do in compliance with code is wrong?????

I said I prefer 20 amp circuits for receptacles. I can put more of them on an expensive breaker, use fewer feet of cable. 

I offered no criticism of your way if it is code compliant. My father used only #12. I use some of each. Supplying 11 watt lights with #12 doesn't make sense to me. Supplying receptacles I can't predict what will be plugged in, I like #12. If you don't approve, it's your problem.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jesus, stop yelling at me, Steve. I’m very vulnerable today, I didn’t receive my valentine from Peter or Rephase.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

HackWork said:


> Jesus, stop yelling at me, Steve. I’m very vulnerable today, I didn’t receive my valentine from Peter or Rephase.


You won't receive one from me either.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If you’re in business for yourself, you get to do what makes you happy.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> if you’re in business for yourself, you get to do what makes you *money*.


ftfy


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That too.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

In Canada we can only put a max of twelve receptacles on one circuit, 15 or 20 amp, doesn’t matter, still 12 max. 

The Only 20 amp circuit we have to install is for kitchen counter/island receptacles and we can only have 2 receptacles on those circuits.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Jesus, stop yelling at me, Steve. I’m very vulnerable today, I didn’t receive my valentine from Peter or Rephase.



Happy Valentines ... hope I'm not too late !! :biggrin:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Canada goes against science.
> 
> They can also have 1-1/2" drains in their stall showers. If you ask any American, they will tell you outright that having less than 2" in a stall shower will cause it to overflow.


Maybe we do need larger shower drains?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

eddy current said:


> Maybe we do need larger shower drains?


That's why I was never accepted at Ottawa U :sad:


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

eddy current said:


> In Canada we can only put a max of twelve receptacles on one circuit, 15 or 20 amp, doesn’t matter, still 12 max.
> 
> The Only 20 amp circuit we have to install is for kitchen counter/island receptacles and we can only have 2 receptacles on those circuits.


Gotta do 20 amp in kitchen, dining, laundry, bathrooms, garages. You can have 20 receptacles, just have to have two circuits for counters. Dining outlets can be included. I'm not loving the phone call when occupants plug all their load into one circuit, none on the other. I choose to break up load in kitchens & run separate circuits for pig, refrigerator, microwave, and dishwasher. An additional receptacle is required in laundry area. 

Don't always do it now, a decade ago I ran an extra circuit to each bed room for AC in a window. These days central air, or split heat pumps are more practical.

Not a whole lot left to factor in load. We once considered lighting load for base board outlets.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> five.five-six said:
> 
> 
> > #12 Huh? I had you pegged as more of a 500KCML up the ass kind of guy.
> ...


12 hrs to think up one up and you phone that craps in? disappointing.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

To tell you the truth, I expected much better from an IAEI certified electrician


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> 12 hrs to think up one up and you phone that craps in? disappointing.


When you've been on top for as long as you have, everything is a disappointment. All I know is that if it weren't for your good looks and pleasant disposition, your cum backs would be 46% more stale.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Willie B said:


> Gotta do 20 amp in kitchen, dining, laundry, bathrooms, garages. You can have 20 receptacles, just have to have two circuits for counters. Dining outlets can be included. I'm not loving the phone call when occupants plug all their load into one circuit, none on the other. I choose to break up load in kitchens & run separate circuits for pig, refrigerator, microwave, and dishwasher. An additional receptacle is required in laundry area.
> 
> Don't always do it now, a decade ago I ran an extra circuit to each bed room for AC in a window. These days central air, or split heat pumps are more practical.
> 
> Not a whole lot left to factor in load. We once considered lighting load for base board outlets.


Here we must have dedicated circuits for fridge, dishwasher, kitchen counters/islands, microwave, garage, laundry room, central vacuum, utility room and outside. Because of that, and our 12 outlet limit (including lights) for all other circuits, we do not have an issue with overloading. No need for 20 amp circuits.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Here we must have dedicated circuits for fridge, dishwasher, kitchen counters/islands, microwave, garage, laundry room, central vacuum, utility room and outside. Because of that, and our 12 outlet limit (including lights) for all other circuits, we do not have an issue with overloading. No need for 20 amp circuits.


I like this idea better and it’s what I would do if I was trying to wire to a higher standard. I think more circuits is better than higher amperage circuits. Unless you’re wiring for a specific appliance that will require a 20a circuit.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> When you've been on top for as long as you have, everything is a disappointment. All I know is that if it weren't for your good looks and pleasant disposition, your cum backs would be 46% more stale.




That word salad doesn’t even make sense.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

five.five-six said:


> That word salad doesn’t even make sense.


Another zinger. Where do you keep those gems hidden?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Another zinger. Where do you keep those gems hidden?


His butt!




Did I win the internet?!?!?!?!


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> His butt!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Close. Looks like you have now tied with him.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

coolwill said:


> close. Looks like you have now tied with him.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Here we must have dedicated circuits for fridge, dishwasher, kitchen counters/islands, microwave, garage, laundry room, central vacuum, utility room and outside. Because of that, and our 12 outlet limit (including lights) for all other circuits, we do not have an issue with overloading. No need for 20 amp circuits.


We are similar but don't have direct requirement for those specific appliances to be on a dedicated circuit, but 9 times out of 10 most of the things on your list end up on them anyway. Our dedicated circuit rules are more for areas, like the kitchen counter, laundry area, dining room and garage as I mentioned earlier. Personally I think Canada's rules are better in this regard.


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