# Grabbing power from existing BDRM outlet with no EGC



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I think 404.9(B) and 410.40 would prevent it.






Why do I have this feeling of _déjà vu_?


----------



## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

useing an existing circuit is no problem. AFCI would not be a bad idea but they are about 50$.

grandfathered in?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's really no provision in the code to add a lighting fixture that is metallic by any means to an ungrounded circuit, regardless of whether you AFCI or GFCI protect it. Ungrounded switches are only permitted for replacements, so there goes the swtich too.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


>


WTH is this????? :blink:
I watched it three times and I still don't know.
I get the deja vu metaphor, but what is that all about?


----------



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Well since the other thread on this subject is closed I will post my response here.

Art. 406 allows us to use a GFCI and then wire to another receptacle but the egc must not be connected and a sticker that says "No Equipment Ground" must be installed. 

I do not see where it is allowed to wire to a light fixture but I am not sure why it cannot be done. Perhaps it is elsewhere in the code.

Also art. 410 section V. requires an EGC. So I would say you cannot do what you intend to do without picking up a ground. Now you can run a grounding conductor to the closest water pipe (assuming it is connected to the panel via a GEC) and connect it to the receptacle and then continue on.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

electricista said:


> Well since the other thread on this subject is closed I will post my response here.


That's because the other thread was a duplicate to this one.






electricista said:


> Also art. 410 section V. requires an EGC. So I would say you cannot do what you intend to do without picking up a ground. Now you can run a grounding conductor to the closest water pipe (assuming it is connected to the panel via a GEC) and connect it to the receptacle and then continue on.


You absolutely CANNOT simply run _"to the closest water pipe"_, even if it is bonded. This is a well know code issue. 
You can ONLY use a water pipe IF it is being used as a grounding electrode and the connection is made within 5' of where the pipe enters the building. 

See Section 250.130(C) & 250.52(A)(1)


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> WTH is this????? :blink:
> I watched it three times and I still don't know.
> I get the deja vu metaphor, but what is that all about?


Maybe this will help you understand.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I get that he is asking this all over, I just can't figure out what that smiley is all about. It's a story about something.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I get that he is asking this all over, I just can't figure out what that smiley is all about. It's a story about something.


I couldnt tell ya either - but its called: ALGDAT_nightmare_by_CookiemagiK.gif


~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I get that he is asking this all over, I just can't figure out what that smiley is all about. It's a story about something.


Déjà vu.

My guess is the OP is trying to get someone's blessing to do some wiring that's against Code.

My 'final answer' is to ask the AHJ and see if they will somehow anoint it.


----------



## zappy (Mar 6, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I get that he is asking this all over, I just can't figure out what that smiley is all about. It's a story about something.


I tried to post on my oringinal question but it keep saying i didn't type enough words. So if a journeyman asks about understanding the code so he can do it correctly he a DIY'er?? I'm just here to learn, I guess you know it all:no:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

zappy said:


> I tried to post on my oringinal question but it keep saying i didn't type enough words. So if a journeyman asks about understanding the code so he can do it correctly he a DIY'er?? I'm just here to learn, I guess you know it all:no:


No, and please don't play the drama role with me either.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

zappy said:


> I tried to post on my oringinal question but it keep saying i didn't type enough words. So if a journeyman asks about understanding the code so he can do it correctly he a DIY'er?? I'm just here to learn, I guess you know it all:no:


OK, so I gave you two code references. Given that you have no ground in the circuit, how do you propose to install your light and switch and conform to those two codes?

Not enough words? You need ten characters minimum. I can't conceive any code-related question that can be asked in less than ten letters.


----------



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's because the other thread was a duplicate to this one.


I realized that. That's why I moved it



> You absolutely CANNOT simply run _"to the closest water pipe"_, even if it is bonded. This is a well know code issue.
> You can ONLY use a water pipe IF it is being used as a grounding electrode and the connection is made within 5' of where the pipe enters the building.
> 
> See Section 250.130(C) & 250.52(A)(1)


You are absolutely correct. I knew that and I have no idea why I wrote the closet water pipe. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricista said:


> ........ I have no idea why I wrote the closet water pipe. Thanks for the correction.


Closet water pipe? Is that where the water closet is? :laughing:















Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.:whistling2:


----------



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Closet water pipe? Is that where the water closet is? :laughing:Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.:whistling2:


 :laughing::laughing::laughing: I guess I missed the "s".


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'd do it. Just like an ungrounded receptacle extension. In my opinion, this is one of those acceptable violations. Sometimes you can't run a new circuit, but you still need the light. In fact, it's probably more safe than the receptacle extension, in that the light is 8' or more above the floor.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I'd do it. Just like an ungrounded receptacle extension. In my opinion, this is one of those acceptable violations. Sometimes you can't run a new circuit, but you still need the light. In fact, it's probably more safe than the receptacle extension, in that the light is 8' or more above the floor.


Sure, I've done it also, and probably will continue to. I just can't pretend like it's a code-legal situation, is all.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I'd do it. Just like an ungrounded receptacle extension. In my opinion, this is one of those acceptable violations. Sometimes you can't run a new circuit, but you still need the light. In fact, it's probably more safe than the receptacle extension, in that the light is 8' or more above the floor.


Where does 8' AFF enter in to grounding? And how is an ungrounded switch and luminaire 'safer' than an ungrounded receptacle?

Would it work? Yes. Would I do it? No.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Where does 8' AFF enter in to grounding? And how is an ungrounded switch and luminaire 'safer' than an ungrounded receptacle?
> 
> Would it work? Yes. Would I do it? No.


Receptacles supply power to portable equipment with cords. These can be moved and tampered with and brought into situations where grounded objects are nearby, increasing the chance of human shock in case of a fault.

A light fixture, on the other hand, does not supply portable power, is relatively stable, so not much worry about wear and tear. And when you are standing on a chair changing a bulb, there usually isn't much problem about reaching other grounded objects.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Receptacles supply power to portable equipment with cords. These can be moved and tampered with and brought into situations where grounded objects are nearby, increasing the chance of human shock in case of a fault.
> 
> A light fixture, on the other hand, does not supply portable power, is relatively stable, so not much worry about wear and tear. And when you are standing on a chair changing a bulb, there usually isn't much problem about reaching other grounded objects.


So a fault is less likely. How is it 'less dangerous'?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Years ago I remember often being told over 8' above fininshed floor or grade was acceptable to skip grounding lights. Never saw a code to back it up myself, I was only a helper then. Now this was back about 1975 or 76 or so. Does anybody know if there was an allowed code sometime in the past like this, or was this just urban electrical myth like so much else that was going around at the time?


----------

