# Horizontal EMT runs through wood studs



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I am wiring the bathroom in the MAN CAVE and like all of the other wiring in the MAN CAVE it is 1/2 & 3/4 emt. The MAN CAVE is a masonry building with under floor and above ceiling conduit runs. With some creative bending I put those runs with not much of problems. The question is how do you do long emt horizontal runs through wood stud walls. I end up with couplings about every 2 stud bays.

Thanks


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am wiring the bathroom in the MAN CAVE and like all of the other wiring in the MAN CAVE it is 1/2 & 3/4 emt. The MAN CAVE is a masonry building with under floor and above ceiling conduit runs. With some creative bending I put those runs with not much of problems. The question is how do you do long emt horizontal runs through wood stud walls. I end up with couplings about every 2 stud bays.
> 
> Thanks


 
Yup, coulings, lots of couplings. Or drill though to the end of the wall, if you can, and instert from the end.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

One job I was on we needed to run 4 or 5 (I don't remember) 3/4" or 1" (I don't remember) through a non load bearing wall with metal studs. We punched holes through the last stud and slid 10' sticks in, it minimalized couplings. Like mdfriday said attempt this if you can or it's going to be couplings galore.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> One job I was on we needed to run 4 or 5 (I don't remember) 3/4" or 1" (I don't remember) through a non load bearing wall with metal studs. We punched holes through the last stud and slid 10' sticks in, it minimalized couplings. Like mdfriday said attempt this if you can or it's going to be couplings galore.


I did a job like that in buffalo New York and it was spec that we had to use compression fittings all 3/4 EMT that was fun and it was about a year before they came out with cordless sawzalls 

All the fire alarm had to be in RMC..:laughing:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

I might be wrong but I think I remember a Chicago electrician saying that with some finesse and a second person helping you can bend a 10' stick into a wall and push the whole thing in.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am wiring the bathroom in the MAN CAVE and like all of the other wiring in the MAN CAVE it is 1/2 & 3/4 emt. The MAN CAVE is a masonry building with under floor and above ceiling conduit runs. With some creative bending I put those runs with not much of problems. The question is how do you do long emt horizontal runs through wood stud walls. I end up with couplings about every 2 stud bays.
> 
> Thanks


It's called greenfield.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I might be wrong but I think I remember a Chicago electrician saying that with some finesse and a second person helping you can bend a 10' stick into a wall and push the whole thing in.


In a wall framed 16 on center? If this is true I think the price of a plane ticket to Chicago just to watch this be done would be money well spent.


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## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> I am wiring the bathroom in the MAN CAVE and like all of the other wiring in the MAN CAVE it is 1/2 & 3/4 emt. The MAN CAVE is a masonry building with under floor and above ceiling conduit runs. With some creative bending I put those runs with not much of problems. The question is how do you do long emt horizontal runs through wood stud walls. I end up with couplings about every 2 stud bays.
> 
> Thanks


Pop a line x 2 - 1 inch apart and notch with a skill saw. Install conduit and use nail plates over notches.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

And wear a hard hat when you weaken the building.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Abcanfield said:


> Pop a line x 2 - 1 inch apart and notch with a skill saw. Install conduit and use nail plates over notches.


I do it this way all the time minus the nail plates. Check your local building codes. Ours allow for up to half of the stud width to notched.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> In a wall framed 16 on center? If this is true I think the price of a plane ticket to Chicago just to watch this be done would be money well spent.


 
Can be done, but not worth the effort if it is wood studs. Take the EMT while still bundled and use your ban saw to cut into 28" lengths. Ream the ends with your channel locks, add coupling to one end and your all set. Drill all your holes at the same height and your 90's will always be bent at the same height when going from outlet to outlet.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> In a wall framed 16 on center? If this is true I think the price of a plane ticket to Chicago just to watch this be done would be money well spent.


I'm hoping a Chicago sparky comes on, I'd like to know if it's true or not as well.


tates1882 said:


> I do it this way all the time minus the nail plates. Check your local building codes. Ours allow for up to half of the stud width to notched.


I really don't care what local code says, I would much rather have a bunch of couplings in a pipe run than most of the studs in my house notched out halfway.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> And wear a hard hat when you weaken the building.


I see hvac guys and plumbers butcher walls and floors all the time. I doubt a 7/8" notch is going to weaken a building.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

I would consider notching a last resort. It is considered hack work.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I'm hoping a Chicago sparky comes on, I'd like to know if it's true or not as well.
> I really don't care what local code says, I would much rather have a bunch of couplings in a pipe run than most of the studs in my house notched out halfway.


If you are that anal why use emt in your house in the first place? ENT, Fmc or Nm would be way better. Putting Emt in a house in Tim the tool man Taylor crap, "overkill" to say the least.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

tates1882 said:


> If you are that anal why use emt in your house in the first place? ENT, Fmc or Nm would be way better. Putting Emt in a house in Tim the tool man Taylor crap, "overkill" to say the least.


I am certainly not anal. I don't see what you consider "anal" about not wanting most of the studs in my house notched halfway thru.

I would never use EMT in a house in that situation either. But if I had to, I would rather use couplings than notch all the studs.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Can be done, but not worth the effort if it is wood studs. Take the EMT while still bundled and use your ban saw to cut into 28" lengths. Ream the ends with your channel locks, add coupling to one end and your all set. Drill all your holes at the same height and your 90's will always be bent at the same height when going from outlet to outlet.


Rob and I are talking about 10' lengths, not cut pieces. You're taking what I said out of context. I know you can do it in smaller pieces, I've done it in ten foot lengths. (see my original post)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Prior to the studs being installed take a router to the botton and top, notch a 7/8" x1" deep notch, lay the conduit on the base plate, then let the carpenters install the studs.




:no:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> Rob and I are talking about 10' lengths, not cut pieces. I know you can do it in smaller pieces, I've done it in ten foot lengths. (see my original post)


His first sentence was answering our question: "_Can be done, but not worth the effort if it is wood studs._"


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Buy some damn NM and get'er done.


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## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

pjmurph2002 said:


> I would consider notching a last resort. It is considered hack work.


Oh, but reaming a 1" hole with a dull wager bit and splintering the exit side of the bore and then ramming a 28" piece of conduit through it is not hack work????


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Abcanfield said:


> Oh, but reaming a 1" hole with a dull wager bit and splintering the exit side of the bore and then ramming a 28" piece of conduit through it is not hack work????


It doesn't weaken the stud nearly as much as notching half of it out.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> It doesn't weaken the stud nearly as much as notching half of it out.


 
When I was taking a masters course the inspector had some information on this and you are correct.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I am certainly not anal. I don't see what you consider "anal" about not wanting most of the studs in my house notched halfway thru.
> 
> I would never use EMT in a house in that situation either. But if I had to, I would rather use couplings than notch all the studs.


Sorry anal may have been the wrong word.
I was think of you as a customer that insisted their house be piped in emt but didn't want me to notch it. I would probably walk away. 

Wood framing is common here for any building under 4 stories. If you took the time to drill and slide 3' pieces in the studs, you would never get a bid job here or you would be working for $5hr to be competitive.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> When I was taking a masters course the inspector had some information on this and you are correct.


I think it was Dennis who posted a diagram a few months ago showing the allowable holes and notches in studs and joists.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> His first sentence was answering our question: "_Can be done, but not worth the effort if it is wood studs._"


Oh :thumbsup: I just read it the wrong way. My bad, definitely not worth the labor but still impressive.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

if you want to struggle with it, you can bend it into the holes. but the entry hole has to be drilled "wrong" (too close to the outside) to start the bend. redrill it later. That one will sort of be a "notch" but at least the others can be done, with much muscling.


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

Notch the studs and use nailplates?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've never tried this, but 1/2" EMT is pretty darn flexible. Is it really that hard to get it into 1" holes...? Seems like you could bend a slight curve in the end of the pipe to get it started and then just force that through, no? :confused1:

-John


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Metal studs are a lot easier than wood.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I'm hoping a Chicago sparky comes on, I'd like to know if it's true or not as well.
> I really don't care what local code says, I would much rather have a bunch of couplings in a pipe run than most of the studs in my house notched out halfway.


Yes, that is how its done! You drill all your holes then slide your stubs in and throw your couplings on...Done! Use a short radius bender around corners too!


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

1/2" is easy as long as you have the clear room to get the stick started and normal spacing between the first 2 studs your going in. 

Don't drill the holes in the center of the stud (the closer to the edge=easier). 
Use a 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 bit (bigger=easier). 
Make sure to drill all the holes the same floor height and consistent depth off edge. Or slightly tapered starting with the first stud closer to the edge going closer to the center on the next one.
Then slightly flex the stick in.
3/4 you need a 1 3/8 hole and it dose not flex in as easy but doable.

IMO it's easier to slide a single stick in place.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I might be wrong but I think I remember a Chicago electrician saying that with some finesse and a second person helping you can bend a 10' stick into a wall and push the whole thing in.


:no::laughing:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> :no::laughing:


Please be more specific.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Please be more specific.


You will never get a full stick in a typically framed wall without drilling the end and putting it in there.

2 guys, it would be cheaper to cut it and use couplings.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

mdfriday said:


> You will never get a full stick in a typically framed wall without drilling the end and putting it in there.


So even tho multiple people have said it could be done, including the gentleman who posted above you and gave specific details, you still maintain that it can't be done?


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> So even tho multiple people have said it could be done, including the gentleman who posted above you and gave specific details, you still maintain that it can't be done?


I would go with, usually, no.

Most lumber framed, I am assuming resi here, since steel studs would be punched, walls are not going to be long enough to justify all that. Around here you cannot notch, and must maintain Atleast a 1/2"of beef on each side if the stud. Also, you would not get away with drilling 1 1/4" or 1 3/8" holes in studs here.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

walkerj said:


> Metal studs are a lot easier than wood.


Haw Haw Haw-spital work....


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

mdfriday said:


> I would go with, usually, no.
> 
> Most lumber framed, I am assuming resi here, since steel studs would be punched, walls are not going to be long enough to justify all that. Around here you cannot notch, and must maintain Atleast a 1/2"of beef on each side if the stud. Also, you would not get away with drilling 1 1/4" or 1 3/8" holes in studs here.


I don't know which area in Illinois your talking about. That's how we did it in the 5 Northern Counties. 
It can be 1 1/8 for 1/2". 1 1/4" is not unreasonable. It's only 1/2" bigger than the conduit. Good luck getting a 90 thru a triple top plate with a small bit. A 3 1/2" stud - 1 1/4" hole = 2 1/4. You need 1/2" each side, so what the problem?

One person can make it happen. There can be other obstructions to keep you from getting an entire stick in, but a coupling every stud would make us laugh. My experience would be a homeowner or handyman's work to do it like that.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Most of my work is in conduit. Conduit can be run horizontally through studs if you drill a larger hole close to the edge. There is no requirement for drilling in the center of the stud as there is with NM. It's typical to avoid horizontal runs though. Usually you go up or down and run through the attic or basement.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I think the allowable percentage to remove from framing material, unless specifically forbidden by the SE, is 40% I try to never remove that much, but it's good to know the max.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Haw Haw Haw-spital work....


Nope.
Rinky-dink public elementary school:thumbsup:


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## DERITM (Apr 8, 2009)

1-1/8" planetor bit, story pole for marking holes, no notching but keep close to front, pipe will flex in nicely. Box to box in sides use 2 piece connector on one end. No problem really. I've probably done 2000 houses and 2000 apartments, pipe a 3 bedroom bungalow in one day. It's all experience, rope-a-dope guys don't have a clue. NFPA statistics show that houses wired in emt are involved in less than 25% of electrical related fires.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

DERITM said:


> 1-1/8" planetor bit, story pole for marking holes, no notching but keep close to front, pipe will flex in nicely. Box to box in sides use 2 piece connector on one end. No problem really. I've probably done 2000 houses and 2000 apartments, pipe a 3 bedroom bungalow in one day. It's all experience, rope-a-dope guys don't have a clue. NFPA statistics show that houses wired in emt are involved in less than 25% of electrical related fires.


I have done that also but i don't like two piece connectors, my foreman would have laughed at me. If the box is higher for a sconce or something I can just bow the stud to get the pipe to slide in and it will be one piece, box to box.

Also, I am another emt person that used to put full sticks in the wall all the time, it does slightly bow the pipe though. I might have the opportunity one time in every house to do this though, not all that common.

I was averaging 1000' a day with a 1400' total of pipe in one work day with a 30 minute break. And yes you could pull wire through, and no, it didn't look like ass.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

DERITM said:


> 1-1/8" planetor bit, story pole for marking holes, no notching but keep close to front, pipe will flex in nicely. Box to box in sides use 2 piece connector on one end. No problem really. I've probably done 2000 houses and 2000 apartments, pipe a 3 bedroom bungalow in one day. It's all experience, rope-a-dope guys don't have a clue. NFPA statistics show that houses wired in emt are involved in less than 25% of electrical related fires.


 I'm not against EMT, certainly, but what was the basis of that NFPA statistic? If 10% of homes in your country are piped, and they're involved in 20% of electrical fires, then that would indicate that they are at least twice as likely to catch fire.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Mike in Canada said:


> I'm not against EMT, certainly, but what was the basis of that NFPA statistic? If 10% of homes in your country are piped, and they're involved in 20% of electrical fires, then that would indicate that they are at least twice as likely to catch fire.


I don't think that is a number from the NFPA...I believe it came from the Fire Inspection Bureau of the City of Chicago. It said that, in the City of Chicago, the number of house fires of electrical origin are 25% of the national average. That is there are 75% less dwelling unit fires said to be caused by electricity than the national average.
I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this including better trained fire cause and origin investigators, but, it is my opinion, that the Chicago "pipe code" is part of the reason that there are fewer electrical caused fires. I am not saying that NM is not safe, because it is, but I will say that EMT is a "safer" wiring method than NM.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks, Don. Sounds reasonable.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I think it sounds reasonable as well. But I also think that when Chicago does the study, there will be a sway towards results that favor the "Chicago" way of using emt to wire dwellings. dig?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have done *no* research on this and am only guessing, but I would think most residential fires are from appliances and extension cords issues more than the base building wiring.

Most issues with base building wiring would be at splices and devices (I would think). EMT would not prevent this, maybe a return to metal boxes???


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> I have done *no* research on this and am only guessing, but I would think most residential fires are from appliances and extension cords issues more than the base building wiring.
> 
> Most issues with base building wiring would be at splices and devices (I would think). EMT would not prevent this, maybe a return to metal boxes???


I think issues can happen from screws and nails hitting the NM, whether it be from original construction (problems can take time to manifest), renovation, or the homeowner themselves.

As for metal boxes, IMO that goes back to the possibility of arcing. I personally think plastic boxes are safer in that respect. They might melt from heat, but I don't think they will ever burn. Metal will heat up enough to ignite a flammable material.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Screws and nails will go straight through a stick of emt without any discretion at all. 

It's preposterous to believe that an emt house is any safer than a romex house.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I think issues can happen from screws and nails hitting the NM, whether it be from original construction (problems can take time to manifest), renovation, or the homeowner themselves.
> 
> 
> > The the inspector and electrician were not doing their job's..kick plates?
> ...


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> The the inspector and electrician were not doing their job's..kick plates?


 You mean nail plates? 

They do sell screws longer than 1 1/4" to the public, you know that, right? :thumbsup:



> If the heat is sufficient to heat metal to burn the plastic will be a heap of goo on the base plate


Exactly, while the metal box will continue to glow red hot and be a source of ignition.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Rudeboy said:


> Screws and nails will go straight through a stick of emt without any discretion at all.


They may, but there is a better chance that they will deflect upwards or downwards when they hit the round pipe. Especially when going thru sheetrock which will breakaway and allow the screw or nail to deflect, it won't hold it straight in like wood or plaster might.

BTW, I am not trying to support running EMT in houses, just trying to look at it from both directions.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Nail plate provide zero protection from nails driven from pneumatic nail guns or pass load gas/battery driven types. I keep a sample one with a 12 penny nail thru it to show to anxious gc's who want to push the job and have me come in to run wiring before they get all the siding, belly bands and corner trims installed..... I never tried it, but I bet emt doesn't provide any real protection against same. All houses should be wired with grc.......:thumbsup:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have done *no* research on this and am only guessing, but I would think most residential fires are from appliances and extension cords issues more than the base building wiring.
> 
> Most issues with base building wiring would be at splices and devices (I would think). EMT would not prevent this, maybe a return to metal boxes???


The fire cause and origin stats used to show the need for AFCIs said that 40% of the dwelling unit fires said to be of electrical origin were in the fixed wiring of the dwelling unit.

Yes, I am sure a big part of the effectiveness of EMT in reducing fires of electrical origin is the metal boxes that are used with EMT.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> ...
> Exactly, while the metal box will continue to glow red hot and be a source of ignition.


And with the plastic box the heat from the fault will still ignite the wood in the area. It seems to me that the metal box will be more likely to conduct enough current that the OCPD will open the circuit. Even with AFCIs I see the metal as being better as a large portion of the trips of the AFCI are from the ground fault protection circuit and not the fancy arc signature recognition firmware. It is easier to have a fault become a ground fault in a metal box than in a non-conductive box.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> I think it sounds reasonable as well. But I also think that when Chicago does the study, there will be a sway towards results that favor the "Chicago" way of using emt to wire dwellings. dig?


The "study" was nothing more than a tabulation of their fire cause and origin stats. It was simply a comparison of the number of electrical caused dwelling unit fires in Chicago and the rest of the country.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> ... All houses should be wired with grc.......:thumbsup:


Need to make that stainless steel rigid conduit...GRC is still too soft to stand up to nail gun driven nails.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

While a system done in emt may be more protective, I wouldn't be surprised to see (well I have seen in Oak Park) people more anxious to try to DIY the add-ons because EMT sparkys are more expensive than the already "expensive romex sparky", so one ends up with more DIY disasters.


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## Malaking_TT (Dec 17, 2010)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Can be done, but not worth the effort if it is wood studs. Take the EMT while still bundled and use your ban saw to cut into 28" lengths. Ream the ends with your channel locks, add coupling to one end and your all set. Drill all your holes at the same height and your 90's will always be bent at the same height when going from outlet to outlet.


You can easily get away with 32" lengths and use your reamer to ream the pipes. That's what it's for. You can also get away with a full stick of 1/2" or 3/4" by drilling an extra large hole towards the back of your second stud to give more flex room.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> And with the plastic box the heat from the fault will still ignite the wood in the area.


 Possibly, but there would be quite a bit of air between the heat source and wood. Metal would transfer that heat better to the wood.


> It seems to me that the metal box will be more likely to conduct enough current that the OCPD will open the circuit.


 Again, possbily, but not in all cases. In the situation of a poor splice and a high current draw the OCPD wouldn't help at all. I've personally found plenty of these situations in junction boxes and still have the poor sense of touch from the burns on my fingers.


> Even with AFCIs I see the metal as being better as a large portion of the trips of the AFCI are from the ground fault protection circuit and not the fancy arc signature recognition firmware. It is easier to have a fault become a ground fault in a metal box than in a non-conductive box.


Of course it is easier to have a fault in a metal box. What is a fault in a metal box is nothing in a plastic box. Wouldn't you rather avoid having the fault altogether?


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## racerjim0 (Aug 10, 2008)

For 1/2" and 3/4" emt, drill all of your holes to an oversize depending on conduit size and notch the first three studs/joists and slide it in, then repair your notched joists. With larger conduit you so have to notch them all but you have to go back and scab in blocks where the notches are with three nails on each side of the scab board. Thats how I do it, and yes it sux.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

Tiger said:


> Most of my work is in conduit. Conduit can be run horizontally through studs if you drill a larger hole close to the edge. There is no requirement for drilling in the center of the stud as there is with NM. It's typical to avoid horizontal runs though. *Usually you go up or down and run through the attic or basement*.


That is the key. Less time drilling.....and manhandling conduit into the wall.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Possibly, but there would be quite a bit of air between the heat source and wood. Metal would transfer that heat better to the wood. Again, possbily, but not in all cases. In the situation of a poor splice and a high current draw the OCPD wouldn't help at all. I've personally found plenty of these situations in junction boxes and still have the poor sense of touch from the burns on my fingers.


What will burn your fingers is far below what is required to ignite wood. Also the OCPD will solve the problem of high current draw creating high heat, what a standard OCPD will not do is solve the problem of low current creating high heat. 


> Of course it is easier to have a fault in a metal box. What is a fault in a metal box is nothing in a plastic box. Wouldn't you rather avoid having the fault altogether?


I don't see the metal as creating the fault, I see it as helping clear the fault.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> What will burn your fingers is far below what is required to ignite wood.


 I know, but what will ignite wood will still burn fingers.


> Also the OCPD will solve the problem of high current draw creating high heat,


 Not if it's under the load rating and the heat is caused by a poor splice, as I illustrated in my example.


> what a standard OCPD will not do is solve the problem of low current creating high heat.


 The terms "low" or "high" current mean nothing without qualification. 100A is high current on a 20A breaker but low on a 200A breaker.


> I don't see the metal as creating the fault, I see it as helping clear the fault.


 The metal certainly does create the fault. In this situation, there wouldn't be a fault in a plastic box, just a small piece of exposed conductor or the like, a non-issue. A much better scenario then possible arcing and heating of a metal box.

Don, I respect your opinion, if this were a code issue I would take what you said as gospel. But in this instance you are a member of the metal box tribe while I am with the plastic boxers (blue if available) so I doubt we are going to change anyone's mind.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I know, but what will ignite wood will still burn fingers.
> Not if it's under the load rating and the heat is caused by a poor splice, as I illustrated in my example.
> The terms "low" or "high" current mean nothing without qualification. 100A is high current on a 20A breaker but low on a 200A breaker. The metal certainly does create the fault. In this situation, there wouldn't be a fault in a plastic box, just a small piece of exposed conductor or the like, a non-issue. A much better scenario then possible arcing and heating of a metal box.


OK So you are right, now supply some statistics and data to back this up?:whistling2:


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> OK So you are right, now supply some statistics and data to back this up?:whistling2:


Back what data up? That a box will burn a finger? That a bad splice will heat up a box even if it's under the OCPD's rating? What exactly would you like backed up? That's it's better not to have arcing in a box?

If something that I said was not a fact, please point it out. If something I said as opinion is not the same as your opinion, then we are both just human.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Back what data up? That a box will burn a finger? That a bad splice will heat up a box even if it's under the OCPD's rating? What exactly would you like backed up? That's it's better not to have arcing in a box?
> 
> If something that I said was not a fact, please point it out. If something I said as opinion is not the same as your opinion, then we are both just human.


You have typed on and on put up! You made statements you need to back these up. Check my post early on I claimed to have real hard data, only SWAGs.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> You have typed on and on put up! You made statements you need to back these up. Check my post early on I claimed to have real hard data, only SWAGs.


Again, what do you want back-up for?

I think you are being a bit childish right now, Brian.


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

would it not be easier to just knock out a stud or 2 with your hammer slide your pipe through in full length along the wall and then toe nail the stud back in. It would be a hell of a lot easier than pulling and bending. I have never piped a house before but that is How I pipe steel studs. Unscrew 2 in a row and slide in 10 " lengths.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Again, what do you want back-up for?
> 
> I think you are being a bit childish right now, Brian.


You made some statements supply the proof. How is that childish?

If I make statements I would supply back up. As I noted earlier I had no proof of what I was claiming, I was purely guessing.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

If it is a "man cave" aka, finished basement why not lay the pipe against the wall before you install the studs. Either install on the wall the longer horizontal pieces or a small notch on the inside of the studs...if they are not load bearing.


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

brian john said:


> You made some statements supply the proof. How is that childish?


 Because nothing that I stated needs proof. You are being childish because you are simply being argumentative. I asked you twice already, this is the third and final time, what did I state that you want proof for? That a box will burn a finger? That a bad splice will heat up a box even if it's under the OCPD's rating? What exactly would you like backed up? That's it's better not to have arcing in a box? What would you like me to prove that we all don't already know? Should I prove that the sky is blue while we are at it?


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

mdfriday said:


> That is the key. Less time drilling.....and manhandling conduit into the wall.


If you have the right kind of drill and a good bit there is little difference in time and effort between a 1" and 1 1/4" hole.

Seems to me some here have not done a full stick this and can't seem to accept how simple it is. Once your holes are drilled correctly it shouldn't take more time to shove a 1/2" stick in that it takes to cut the same conduit 1 or 2 times.

More often we would 90 into a box for several reasons. Many times we would have a 90 at the end of the stick and pop it right into the box.

If some people can't accept it can be done with little effort that's their deal.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Screws and nails will go straight through a stick of emt without any discretion at all.
> 
> It's preposterous to believe that an emt house is any safer than a romex house.


I seen only a handful of cases where a screw went into wood then a conduit. In the times it did happen there were always 2 factors. The screw was excessive in length for what was needed. The conduit was about center 2x4 stud depth. It's popular belief that putting the pipe further from the edge provides more protection. In reality the extra wood between the stud edge and EMT gives the screw something solid to bite into before hitting the pipe. If it was closer to the edge there is a greater chance of stripping out the wood before penetrating the pipe. 

But in each case we had an issue pulling the wire, found, removed the screw, and finished pulling the wire. 
What if that was NM cable?

There are homes built with wood framing in Chicagoland that were originally done before EMT, completely with RMC.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Someone said it best that it is easier to run the pipe behind the studs if you're building away from the walls. True, true. You can get full sticks into the wall, but it rarely pays off.

I also agree with the statement that EMT won't save you from an errant screw any more than NM will. I believe the code that disallows running the tops of bar joists will attest to that. I know Marc has pictures of damaged EMT from roofers so he can attest. The only thing I thought of that NM would fail in place of EMT would be a toggle wing. Run that tight and pinch the NM and it'll just be a matter of time before something goes. That toggle won't stand a chance against a pipe.

Not saying it justifies the position, but it's worth considering.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

active1 said:


> If you have the right kind of drill and a good bit there is little difference in time and effort between a 1" and 1 1/4" hole.
> 
> Seems to me some here have not done a full stick this and can't seem to accept how simple it is. Once your holes are drilled correctly it shouldn't take more time to shove a 1/2" stick in that it takes to cut the same conduit 1 or 2 times.
> 
> ...


What I am saying, is, it is faster to go verticle. Then you drill one hole and lay your horizontal runs on the joists in the attic, or nailed up in the basement.

Done it this way hundreds of times. Obviously, it would depend on how far horizontally you have to go.


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## ratrod56 (Jan 21, 2011)

Abcanfield said:


> Pop a line x 2 - 1 inch apart and notch with a skill saw. Install conduit and use nail plates over notches.


 
thats a good way to get ran off a job around here:no: and i dont think it upto code something bout" install work in craftsman like manner" may be wrong


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## wirewizard (Mar 26, 2011)

have done schools in fla that were all all wiring was done in emt-only flex was 2 lights-waste of time in a house--i ca. house wiring was done in plastic nm flex


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

ratrod56 said:


> thats a good way to get ran off a job around here:no: and i dont think it upto code something bout" install work in craftsman like manner" may be wrong


It's no different that having to notch a stud to get NM or MC through. 

As long as you comply with your local building codes as far as how much of the stud you're allowed to notch and don't exceed that, it's a perfectly acceptable installation. Once you've notched, installed and secured your conduit you install a nail plate to comply with 300.4.

Article 110.12 does not come into play in this instance.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I never would have dreamed that I would have gotten 80 responses.

THANKS AGAIN LC


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## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

ratrod56 said:


> thats a good way to get ran off a job around here:no: and i dont think it upto code something bout" install work in craftsman like manner" may be wrong


Yep, wrong quote. It's "workman like manner". But, we won't run you off.


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## Chicago Sparking Scab (7 mo ago)

RobTownfold64 said:


> I might be wrong but I think I remember a Chicago electrician saying that with some finesse and a second person helping you can bend a 10' stick into a wall and push the whole thing in.


Just curious, i've heard that once before as well, only once. Was that Chicago Electrician's name Manny Zendejas?


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## Chicago Sparking Scab (7 mo ago)

Chicago Sparking Scab said:


> Just curious, i've heard that once before as well, only once. Was that Chicago Electrician's name Manny Zendejas?


Because he be on BullS***


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Chicago Sparking Scab said:


> Because he be on BullS***


That poster has been banned long ago. 11 year old thread.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Chicago Sparking Scab said:


> Just curious, i've heard that once before as well, only once. Was that Chicago Electrician's name Manny Zendejas?


Please refrain from posting on threads that are this old.

Also If a user has "banned" beside their name, they won't ever reply to you...


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