# GFCI tripping issue, easy fix.



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

So we often see threads on these forums about GFCIs tripping for no apprent reason and just as often people say remove them, bitch about the GFCIs, bitch about the code requirements for them and generally complain.

Well it finally has happened to me but strangely I found the answer was easy.

Last Friday one of the other guys installed a new GFCI outlet in a food prep cooler. He used a bell box, an in use cover, and a 20 amp WP GFCI.

Monday the customer called and said 'It does not work' so I was available and went to check it out.

They were using a brand new commercial food processor in the outlet. One of the workers showed me how it worked. He reset the GFCI, he turned on the machines main switch and that was fine but the instant he hit start the GFCI tripped. I said OK I will check it out.

I took the machine to other GFCIs and the same thing happened, I took it to a regular receptacle and the machine worked fine. 

I brought my electric heat gun in as a 'load bank' and used it in the GFCI and the GFCI worked fine.

So I cleaned up my stuff, wrote a T&M slip and explained to the customer that the machine will not work with a GFCI, they will need to speak to the vendor they bought the machine from and that I could not remove the GFCI. They were unhappy but I went on my way home.

Is that so hard?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Is that so hard?


when they blame you ,don't pay you, and the manufacturer is no help

_you tell me....?_


~CS~


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

That is the way it is supposed to be handled, but in all fairness, it is much easier to deal with second hand employees than a homeowner on such issues. The employees are not the ones having to write the check.

With that said, I used to do extensive work in a large retirement home. We had an issue with GFI's tripping for no apparent reason. After some digging and some luck, we found that as soon as you clicked the talk button on their 2way radios, Leviton and P&S GFI's tripped. We "solved" the problem by installing Hubbell GFI's.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Deep Cover said:


> That is the way it is supposed to be handled, but in all fairness, it is much easier to deal with second hand employees than a homeowner on such issues. The employees are not the ones having to write the check.


I don't think you have had much experience dealing with grocery store managers. Most have a direct financial stake in the operation of the store.

IMO, the fact it is code required makes it very easy.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I don't think you have had much experience dealing with grocery store managers. Most have a direct financial stake in the operation of the store.
> 
> IMO, the fact it is code required makes it very easy.


Do you really hand the bill to the manager? I've never billed a commercial customer on the spot. It always goes back to the office to be mailed to accounts payable.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

BBQ said:


> IMO, the fact it is code required makes it very easy.


and I agree. However, if you look at it from a homeowner's perspective, there are a ton of handymen out there that will "fix" their problem for less than you charged to tell them that they need a new coffee maker.

I'm not saying it is right, and I wouldn't be caught dead assuming the liability of removing a required GFI, but it puts our trade at a disadvantage.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> IMO, the fact it is code required makes it very easy.


and how would that be BBQ?

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Deep Cover said:


> and I agree. However, if you look at it from a homeowner's perspective, there are a ton of handymen out there that will "fix" their problem for less than you charged to tell them that they need a new coffee maker.


Very true, but that has nothing at all to do with me, that is on them and the handyman.



> but it puts our trade at a disadvantage.


I just don't see how that makes any difference to how professionals go about their day.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

sometimes if you show the customer that there is continuity between the conductors and the metal case with a meter it helps also


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

I would have called the manufacturer for the customer, on speaker phone, and got a new unit. When the store calls they wont know what to say and will just get blown off. I have lost good customers from the manufacturer run around.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm with BBQ. This is an easy one. Especially in his case where he could show them that the installation worked properly. I've had this same situation with treadmills in unfinished basements. How it was resolved is anyones guess, but I've always been paid and gone on my merry way.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Ultrafault said:


> I would have called the manufacturer for the customer, on speaker phone, and got a new unit. When the store calls they wont know what to say and will just get blown off. I have lost good customers from the manufacturer run around.


If I am at the job they are paying by the hour. I know they don't want to pay electrical rates for phone calls.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBQ said:


> If I am at the job they are paying by the hour. I know they don't want to pay electrical rates for phone calls.


If you were an owner I think you would be handling this differently. It might be easy as switching to a GFCI breaker if that is possible.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

8V71 said:


> If you were an owner I think you would be handling this differently. It might be easy as switching to a GFCI breaker if that is possible.


Because a GFCI breaker works differently than a GFCI receptacle? :whistling2:

How would you handle this situation?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> If you were an owner I think you would be handling this differently. It might be easy as switching to a GFCI breaker if that is possible.



And that solves......... what, exactly?


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Because a GFCI breaker works differently than a GFCI receptacle? :whistling2:
> 
> How would you handle this situation?


It might be tripping on motor start overload or some other weirdness. The length of the run or even a different device just might make a difference. The point is, customer see's that you are trying to solve their problem and it wouldn't take much effort.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

8V71 said:


> It might be tripping on motor start overload or some other weirdness. The length of the run or even a different device just might make a difference. The point is, customer see's that you are trying to solve their problem and it wouldn't take much effort.


It's a GFCI receptacle. It's tripping because there's a ground fault.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I don't see why they didn't call the "other guy" that installed it, and make him responsible.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> So we often see threads on these forums about GFCIs tripping for no apprent reason and just as often people say remove them, bitch about the GFCIs, bitch about the code requirements for them and generally complain.
> 
> Well it finally has happened to me but strangely I found the answer was easy.
> 
> ...


I do not see a UL listing on that POS>Back to Spain.:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Why do they need UL if it has already been evaluated by ETL, another NRTL.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

big2bird said:


> I do not see a UL listing on that POS>Back to Spain.:laughing:


Bingo we have a winner.:thumbsup:


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## Thunderbird811 (May 19, 2013)

8V71 said:


> If you were an owner I think you would be handling this differently. It might be easy as switching to a GFCI breaker if that is possible.


 
A GFCI breaker is more expensive than a GFCI receptacle & I'm not sure if it will solve the problem. As a qualified electrician or contractor, you can't simply remove a GFCI because a customer doesn't want it.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

> So I cleaned up my stuff, wrote a T&M slip and explained to the customer that the machine will not work with a GFCI, they will need to speak to the vendor they bought the machine from and that I could not remove the GFCI. They were unhappy but I went on my way home.
> 
> Is that so hard?


Perhaps the equipment is faulty and has a ground fault. Did you tell the customer that?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ, I get your point, but is it not fair to say you don't have the same worries about losing future business that a contractor might have when working for a small customer with whom they have no previous history? I think that's where a lot of guys get concerned about just saying "Yeah, your fridge is broke. Pay me."


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Thunderbird811 said:


> A GFCI breaker is more expensive than a GFCI receptacle & I'm not sure if it will solve the problem. As a qualified electrician or contractor, you can't simply remove a GFCI because a customer doesn't want it.


I have only used GFCI receptacles as a last resort. Maybe three or four a year. Luckily the customers that I work for don't mind paying for GFCI breakers. I can't recall ever having nuisance tripping problems with a GFCI breaker. We have built portable power supplies that travel all over the US, some with as many as 30 receptacles and haven't had any issues. I would try replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker before condeming the equipment.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

SteveBayshore said:


> ...I would try replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker before condeming the equipment.


 What do you think a GFCI breaker is doing that a GFCI receptacle is not?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Remember this thread from a year ago, brand new equipment in that case also.

Don't plog


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Big John said:


> What do you think a GFCI breaker is doing that a GFCI receptacle is not?


They're not nuissance tripping. Never broke one apart, but from experience, they hold up quite a bit better. Also, breakers are often located in a better enviornmental area.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

SteveBayshore said:


> They're not nuissance tripping....


 I wouldn't expect a receptacle to nuisance trip, either. Only time I've ever seen it happen is from radio transmitters and lightning. 

I'll grant that if the panel is in a cleaner environment, the GFCI protection will last longer than beat-up receptacles, but I don't believe the detection circuity is any different.


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## Keyrick (Nov 10, 2010)

_"Monday the customer called and said 'It does not work' so I was available and went to check it out._

_They were using a brand new commercial food processor in the outlet. One of the workers showed me how it worked. He reset the GFCI, he turned on the machines main switch and that was fine but the instant he hit start the GFCI tripped. I said OK I will check it out._

_I took the machine to other GFCIs and the same thing happened, I took it to a regular receptacle and the machine worked fine. _

_I brought my electric heat gun in as a 'load bank' and used it in the GFCI and the GFCI worked fine."_

There is nothing wrong with the GFCI. The "New" food processor is at fault. Just because it works in a Non-GFCI receptacle doesn't mean the food processor is OK. It probably has a bad filter cap or defective start circuitry that forces some current to ground. BBQ did the correct thing. Yes, you have to take care of your customers, but you can't be liable for equipment that you did not provide.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

Keyrick said:


> There is nothing wrong with the GFCI. The "New" food processor is at fault. Just because it works in a Non-GFCI receptacle doesn't mean the food processor is OK. It probably has a bad filter cap or defective start circuitry that forces some current to ground. BBQ did the correct thing. Yes, you have to take care of your customers, but you can't be liable for equipment that you did not provide.


Correct. Our liability ends at point of use for customer supplied equipment. The GFCI is detecting a fault, and the POS equipment is the cause. End of story.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Keyrick said:


> _"Monday the customer called and said 'It does not work' so I was available and went to check it out._
> 
> _They were using a brand new commercial food processor in the outlet. One of the workers showed me how it worked. He reset the GFCI, he turned on the machines main switch and that was fine but the instant he hit start the GFCI tripped. I said OK I will check it out._
> 
> ...


 

How much simpler can somebody put it. You can all beat a dead horse all you want but......this is the answer. 

You go in......you prove that the work you or your employees did is done properly and that your equipment is NOT defective and you leave. 

You have ZERO responsibility for what they plug into that receptacle.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

One of my favorite "can you just take the gfci out calls" was just a little while back. Swamp cooler pumps.











Yeah. Those evil gfci's were the problem :laughing:


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## doublejelectric (Jan 23, 2013)

What about a situation like a BBQ. I installed a traeger unit and in the instructions it states it will not work on a gfci receptacle. What would you do in that instance.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

doublejelectric said:


> What about a situation like a BBQ. *I installed a traeger unit* and in the instructions it states it will not work on a gfci receptacle. What would you do in that instance.


What model? I got curious and searched Traeger's manuals, and can't find any stating no gfci.

But if an outdoor cooking appliance that specifically states that the product must be used outdoors also states it can't be used on a GFCI, that is an obvious contradiction and good reason to not to use it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8V71 said:


> If you were an owner I think you would be handling this differently.


How should an owner have handled it?



> It might be easy as switching to a GFCI breaker if that is possible.


Two issues with that, I don't stock bolt on GFCI breakers and the customer wants GFCIs at the point of use.



8V71 said:


> It might be tripping on motor start overload or some other weirdness.


GFCIs do not trip on overload and the unit has virtually no inrush anyway, it is electronically controlled and ramps up to speed slowly.




> The length of the run or even a different device just might make a difference. The point is, customer see's that you are trying to solve their problem and it wouldn't take much effort.


The problem was clearly within the unit, I tested it on another GFCI outlet and I tested the new outlet with a heavy load.

Had the unit been an old one I might have opened it up to see if I could see anything out of place but it was a brand new unit. If I open it and mess with it they may not be able to return it. 



dronai said:


> I don't see why they didn't call the "other guy" that installed it, and make him responsible.


The other guy was a coworker of mine, he was just not available, I was so I was sent. 



Jlarson said:


> Why do they need UL if it has already been evaluated by ETL, another NRTL.


ETL is not a US NTRL but NSF is. 



I_get_shocked said:


> Perhaps the equipment is faulty and has a ground fault. Did you tell the customer that?


No, I just left.  Of course I explained it to them and wrote it all down on the T&M slip.



Big John said:


> BBQ, I get your point, but is it not fair to say you don't have the same worries about losing future business that a contractor might have when working for a small customer with whom they have no previous history?


John, the loss of business should not be a factor in it. The code requires a GFCI in that location, there is nothing I can do to change that. The unit will not run on a GFCI I cannot change that either. Sometimes running a business is going to be aggravating.



> I think that's where a lot of guys get concerned about just saying "Yeah, your fridge is broke. Pay me."


But it is the truth. Of course an business owner could wave the fee for the trip if they feel it makes sense but that is not our policy with this customer for this type of call. 




SteveBayshore said:


> I have only used GFCI receptacles as a last resort. Maybe three or four a year. Luckily the customers that I work for don't mind paying for GFCI breakers. I can't recall ever having nuisance tripping problems with a GFCI breaker. We have built portable power supplies that travel all over the US, some with as many as 30 receptacles and haven't had any issues. I would try replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker before condeming the equipment.


The GFCI was not 'nuisance tripping' it was tripping becuse there is an issue with the equipment.

It is not a matter of the customer being unwilling to pay for GFCI breaker, it is a matter of them wanting the GFCI at the point of use so they do not have to check a dozen panel in different locations looking for the GFCI to reset.







SteveBayshore said:


> They're not nuissance tripping. Never broke one apart, but from experience, they hold up quite a bit better. Also, breakers are often located in a better enviornmental area.


It was a brand new WR/TR GFCI with an in use cover. It was not a issue with the GFCI.



Keyrick said:


> There is nothing wrong with the GFCI. The "New" food processor is at fault. Just because it works in a Non-GFCI receptacle doesn't mean the food processor is OK. It probably has a bad filter cap or defective start circuitry that forces some current to ground. BBQ did the correct thing. Yes, you have to take care of your customers, but you can't be liable for equipment that you did not provide.


Thank you for reading what I posted in the first post. 



big2bird said:


> Correct. Our liability ends at point of use for customer supplied equipment. The GFCI is detecting a fault, and the POS equipment is the cause. End of story.


That is my position, it is not my fault they bought equipment that will not run on a GFCI.



Rollie73 said:


> How much simpler can somebody put it. You can all beat a dead horse all you want but......this is the answer.
> 
> You go in......you prove that the work you or your employees did is done properly and that your equipment is NOT defective and you leave.
> 
> You have ZERO responsibility for what they plug into that receptacle.


Thank you. 



doublejelectric said:


> What about a situation like a BBQ. I installed a traeger unit and in the instructions it states it will not work on a gfci receptacle. What would you do in that instance.


Tell the customer they need to consider returning it. They will not like that but life is like that.



CraigV said:


> What model? I got curious and searched Traeger's manuals, and can't find any stating no gfci.
> 
> But if an outdoor cooking appliance that specifically states that the product must be used outdoors also states it can't be used on a GFCI, that is an obvious contradiction and good reason to not to use it.


Agreed


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> ETL is not a US NTRL but NSF is


Since when is Intertek/ETL not accepted here? I know about NSF obviously.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Since when is Intertek/ETL not accepted here? I know about NSF obviously.


I could not find it on the list but I guess that was because of the name change.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I should have taken a picture of the unit. But the control panel is entirly electronic.

I can turn the control power on and the controls light up, the display operates and I can adjust the speed selection up and down with + and - buttons.

But the instant I hit the run button the GFCI trips out.

There is a motor brake, there is a motor speed control that ramps the speed and there are at least a couple of some type of proximity sensors that verify the safety guards are in place. 

I do not know if this particular machine is defective or it is a design problem across all units. It is now between the our customer and the vendor.

It is very likely that the machine was provided to the supermarket by the vendor of produce. This is pretty common, the supermarket pays for the installation of power but they get the equipment for free from a vendor of food products. This happens with coolers for drinks, wrapping equipment for all types of products, other display equipment etc.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

doublejelectric said:


> What would you do in that instance.


Run. If they can't make a simple electrical device not trip a GFCI they shouldn't be building anything that involves gas. :no::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Is this thing listed via one of the NRTL's or not BBQ?

~CS~


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

At work........

Pretending to edit a Word document.....

Talk later.......


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So I cleaned up my stuff, wrote a T&M slip and explained to the customer that the machine will not work with a GFCI, they will need to speak to the vendor they bought the machine from and that I could not remove the GFCI. They were unhappy but I went on my way home.
> 
> Is that so hard?


You still screwed up.. :sleep1::sleep1:

The smart thing to do would be to change the GFCI outlet no matter what all your "tests" proved...

It sounds better to the customer that you did everything possible to fix the problem...

Not changing the existing GFCI was plain lazy on your part.. you need to be re-tooled when it comes to dealing with customers.. :no::no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

and another look confirms it is _indeed_ listed by an NRTL


I'm ringing up a SAMMIC CK-301
food processor.

This has been an ongoing debacle since gfci's proliferated commercial kitchens btw

So to sum the thread up, we have what is a customer, spent $1400 on a kitchen processor , had an electrical company wire the kitchen it's in, and now it trips the GFCI

Further, we have an employee who waltzes in, pulls the code nazi card , writes out a T&M ticket pursuant to billing it all out

and then claims _'what's so hard about that'_, offering zero options and jeopardizing what may have been long term customer relations

*HEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO??????*

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> You still screwed up.. :sleep1::sleep1:
> 
> The smart thing to do would be to change the GFCI outlet no matter what all your "tests" proved.


Tell you what, next time you can send me a TR/WP 20 amp GFCI for free and I will do that. :laughing:




B4T said:


> It sounds better to the customer that you did everything possible to fix the problem...


That is your opinion, not a fact.





> Not changing the existing GFCI was plain lazy on your part.


Lazy had nothing to do with it. I am not tossing a good GFCI in the trash and I wont install a used one in another location. 



> you need to be re-tooled when it comes to dealing with customers.. :no::no:


Interesting, our customers ask for me and call me. I guess they don't know who can get it done.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Tell you what, next time you can send me a TR/WP 20 amp GFCI for free and I will do that. :laughing:


You should of taken one with you.. ANOTHER wasted move you did.. :no::no:

Who goes on a service call with NO replacement parts on the truck.. :blink::blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Has anyone suggested megging the equipment yet?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> You should of taken one with you.. ANOTHER wasted move you did.. :no::no:
> 
> Who goes on a service call with NO replacement parts on the truck.. :blink::blink:


I have a number of them on the truck, that was not the point.

And we have seen the inside of your truck, no shelves, no stock no nothing. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Interesting, our customers ask for me and call me. I guess they don't know who can get it done.


Just not the ones you tell they are SOL and not your problem.. not very good way to solve a problem..


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I would have swapped out the gfci receptacle at a minimum myself, then the next time I was at my supplier I would get them to give me a new one for the swapped one.

Do it all the time.

Not swapping the gfci will make the customer always wonder if it's the gfci, not the equipment even if we all know that's not the case.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Has anyone suggested megging the equipment yet?


No and while I have one with me I would not attempt it.

The machine would power up the electronics and not trip the GFCI, it would not trip the GFCI until I hit run.

So I have no idea how I could test it while it was energized.

I had considered lifting the EGC of a non GFCI outlet and using my ammeter to measure the current to ground but I did decide to get lazy about that.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And we have seen the inside of your truck, no shelves, no stock no nothing. :laughing:


Nice try at the song n dance routine.. my truck was empty to deliver a generator...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Just not the ones you tell they are SOL and not your problem.. not very good way to solve a problem..


I identified the problem and told them what they had to do.

Neither you or I could have fixed the equipment.



drspec said:


> I would have swapped out the gfci receptacle at a minimum myself, then the next time I was at my supplier I would get them to give me a new one for the swapped one.
> 
> Do it all the time.


You make your supplier take back perfectly working equipment all the time? 

You did notice I tested it right? And it worked fine with other loads. And that I tested the machine on existing working GFCIs with the same result, the machine tripped the GFCI.

Seems kind of sleazy, to send back good equipment, besides I rarely go to a supply house. Our supplies are delivered to the shop. For a return it would involve our purchasing department being involved, by the time it was all said and done the labor costs would exceed the GFCI cost.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Nice try at the song n dance routine.. my truck was empty to deliver a generator...


So you take out all the shelving to deliver a generator? :whistling2:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I identified the problem and told them what they had to do.
> 
> Neither you or I could have fixed the equipment.
> 
> ...


When it's questionable on the equipment I do. 

Can you say 100% the gfci receptacle was not faulty. I know the equipment tripped out other gfci receptacles, but can you 100% assure the gfci was not faulty?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So you take out all the shelving to deliver a generator? :whistling2:


No shelving to take out.. I am able to have a completely empty van in (15) minutes when transporting a generator or Ditch Witch.. :thumbsup:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I take offense to the sleazy comment. 
I have a very good relationship with my supplier and if they have to replace a device, they happily do it.
Not sure how that makes me sleazy, but judge on.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ screwed up on one of the very basics of 'troubleshooting" a problem.. but he will continue to find excuses to hide his laziness.. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> ..........So I have no idea how I could test it while it was energized.......


You don't test it while energized. You test it de-energized.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drspec said:


> When it's questionable on the equipment I do.
> 
> Can you say 100% the gfci receptacle was not faulty. I know the equipment tripped out other gfci receptacles, but can you 100% assure the gfci was not faulty?


I can say so with more than enough confidence to suit me.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You don't test it while energized. You test it de-energized.




There is no ground fault until either a relay or SCR closes a circuit.

Please explain how you would do that and how you could be sure it would not fry the electronics?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drspec said:


> I take offense to the sleazy comment.
> I have a very good relationship with my supplier and if they have to replace a device, they happily do it.
> Not sure how that makes me sleazy, but judge on.


Uhhh you have been judging me with each of your posts in this thread.

That is OK with me but don't suddenly try to stake out a moral high ground. :laughing:


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't know the relationship between the customer and your company but this service call reminds me of a tech that just wants to get in and out and go home while leaving the customer hanging with a problem.

Your added information leaves me no where to go with my replies but I still contend that there is a chance that a GFI breaker would work with this machine by putting distance and wire between the load and GFI electronics. Especially now that i know the processor is electronic.

If the customer wanted bad enough to run the machine in that location I would have tested out that theory and you may have gotten more work by running a dedicated line since you say that the customer doesn't want to run around resetting breakers.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> BBQ screwed up on one of the very basics of 'troubleshooting" a problem.. but he will continue to find excuses to hide his laziness.. :no:


In what way did I screw up exactly? Please explain I would love to hear it. :laughing:


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You don't test it while energized. You test it de-energized.


You can't megger it.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8V71 said:


> I don't know the relationship between the customer and your company but this service call reminds me of a tech that just wants to get in and out and go home while leaving the customer hanging with a problem.


You are right, I did want to get in and get out as soon as I realized it was the machine and not a warranty issue.

The longer I am there the more cost to the customer with no change in the result. Had it been a warranty issue I would have had no problem replacing any part we installed regardless of the time it would take.




> Your added information leaves me no where to go with my replies but I still contend that there is a chance that a GFI breaker would work with this machine by putting distance and wire between the load and GFI electronics. Especially now that i know the processor is electronic.


That really makes no sense at all and many here feel the same way. 

And again, they do not want a GFCI breaker.



> If the customer wanted bad enough to run the machine in that location I would have tested out that theory and you may have gotten more work by running a dedicated line since you say that the customer doesn't want to run around resetting breakers.


We ran a dedicated line, the panel and circuit number is marked on the bell box the GFCI is installed in. The panel schedule was updated.

The customer is a large chain, they have specifications and one of those specifications is point of use GFCIs.

Why are you having such a hard time believing the machine is faulty?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> In what way did I screw up exactly? Please explain I would love to hear it. :laughing:


Because diagnosing everything_ right_, and loosing a customer over terrible 'bedside manner' is _wrong_ BBQ

Where you on my crew, i'd make sure you'd be _'wire ferret'_ in the hottest bat /wasp infested slum attics i could possibly stuff your azz in until you LEARNED this 

~CS~


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Why are you having such a hard time believing the machine is faulty?


I'm not having a hard time believing it. But if the customer was OK with a remote GFI that would have been my "customer care" move.  Wow! this guy is awesome, he really tried his best to get us going.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I can say so with more than enough confidence to suit me.


 
Not trying to troll or argue, but I believe this is the difference between an owner/operator and an employee.

An employee will do just enough to complete the job and an owner will do everything in their power to make the customer happy. And if that takes replacing a perfectly good gfci in an attempt to satisfy a customer, that's what happens.

Not saying that is the case in your situation.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Without a doubt the GFCI was working fine, and when I did service work I handled a service call at a restaurant the exact same way when they had a freezer that was leaking to ground. But it still bugged me not being able to resolve the problem for the customer. 

I think the question in these threads isn't "What do you do about the crappy equipment?", it's actually "How do you give the customer the best peace-of-mind when they have crappy equipment and you know you can't fix it?"

And for the record, while I understand the motivation, I don't agree with replacing the GFCI; I think that's throwing good money after bad. Showing somebody the leakage current on the DMM might've been a good trick, but I'll admit it might not have made one bit of difference.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Uhhh you have been judging me with each of your posts in this thread.
> 
> That is OK with me but don't suddenly try to stake out a moral high ground. :laughing:


 
Dude, I never judged you. I merely stated what I would do in that situation.
Never slammed you. Never said you didn't do everything in your power to resolve the situation.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8V71 said:


> I'm not having a hard time believing it. But if the customer was OK with a remote GFI that would have been my "customer care" move.  Wow! this guy is awesome, he really tried his best to get us going.


So lets say you try the remote GFCI deal and it does not work. Do you charge them for it?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

8V71 said:


> You can't megger it.



And.......... why not?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And.......... why not?


Because I don't have a megger....:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> There is no ground fault until either a relay or SCR closes a circuit.
> 
> Please explain how you would do that and how you could be sure it would not fry the electronics?


Connect to hot and grounding, and use 50volts to start with.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't get this employee V. owner BS

I don't worry about loosing a customer cause they got a POS product that doesn't work from a manufacture and we tell them to take it back.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And.......... why not?


How about you answer the question I asked you?

How would Mr 480Sparky use an insulation tester to find the ground fault that only happens during the run cycle?


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBQ said:


> So lets say you try the remote GFCI deal and it does not work. Do you charge them for it?


You tell me....I don't know chit about this customer.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> So lets say you try the remote GFCI deal and it does not work. Do you charge them for it?


ya gotta _offer _it first..... ~CS~


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Connect to hot and grounding, and use 50volts to start with.


You are not listening, the unit has to be plugged in, the control power on and the run cycle started before the GFCI trips.

That being the case there is either a relay or SCR that must be closed before the ground fault happens. 

I am not going to open a brand new machine to bypass this with a meter.

If you would well, I guess they should hire you.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8V71 said:


> You tell me....I don't know chit about this customer.


You don't have to know about this customer.:no:

It is a simple question, if you decided to take the time to install a remote GFCI and that did not solve the problem would you charge any customer for that time?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Because I don't have a megger....:laughing::laughing:


:thumbup:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I don't get this employee V. owner BS
> 
> I don't worry about loosing a customer cause they got a POS product that doesn't work from a manufacture and we tell them to take it back.


If you were an owner you would handle it differently.








Oh wait, you are an owner.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You are not listening,........


I tend not to pay attention when you and B4T are going at it like a couple of $5 hookers fighting over a drunken sailor.

I guess since YOU are part of the discussion, it's simply IMPOSSIBLE that *PART *of the issue MIGHT be BEFORE all the electronics.


Carry on.


----------



## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBQ said:


> So lets say you try the remote GFCI deal and it does not work. Do you charge them for it?


If you are charging let them know up front of course. Sometimes it's not about money but that you are willing to try something to get them going. Even if it doesn't work and you charge them I think they would be more satisfied that you tried.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I tend not to pay attention when you and B4T are going at it like a couple of $5 hookers fighting over a drunken sailor.


And you are a moderator here, what an odd place.:laughing:




> I guess since YOU are part of the discussion, it's simply IMPOSSIBLE that *PART *of the issue MIGHT be BEFORE all the electronics.
> 
> 
> Carry on.


The unit does not trip when the electronics are on. 

But please continue to claim you could megga it and find the problem.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

8V71 said:


> If you are charging let them know up front of course. Sometimes it's not about money but that you are willing to try something to get them going. Even if it doesn't work and you charge them I think they would be more satisfied that you tried.


No, they will not be more satisfied if I start throwing money at the problem without knowing the result will be positive. :laughing:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No, they will not be more satisfied if I start throwing money at the problem without knowing the result will be positive. :laughing:


I think you intended this thread to be controversial and it has proven to be :brows:

kudos! :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I believe Bob did the right thing and I will remember this next time I run into a similar situation. It's strictly a liability and NEC issue and I have an interest in staying in business for years to come. And then the equipment isn't UL listed? Run Forrest run!


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I believe Bob did the right thing and I will remember this next time I run into a similar situation. It's strictly a liability and NEC issue and I have an interest in staying in business for years to come. And then the equipment isn't UL listed? Run Forrest run!


I think he did too. Brand new equipment tripping a GFCI? I'm not going to tear it apart to find to bypass the electronics to megger it.

Full disclosure: I'm not opposed to doing simple repairs on appliances. A few weeks ago a hair salon had a machine they've been using for years start tripping the breaker. I removed the little wiring access plate and found that the power cord had just been slowly rubbing through until it finally shorted out. So I got a new power cord and grommet and replaced the bad one. Listing violation? Maybe, but it's working and safe and I'll live with that.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I think you intended this thread to be controversial and it has proven to be :brows:
> 
> kudos! :thumbup::laughing:














Magnettica said:


> I believe Bob did the right thing


Thanks. 



erics37 said:


> I think he did too. Brand new equipment tripping a GFCI? I'm not going to tear it apart to find to bypass the electronics to megger it.
> 
> Full disclosure: I'm not opposed to doing simple repairs on appliances.


Like I said, had it been an old appliance I would likely have opened it up and looked for the cause. But a brand new one? Not going to do it.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> And then the equipment isn't UL listed? Run Forrest run!


the equipment is listed

BBQ has the label posted

~CS~


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> In what way did I screw up exactly? Please explain I would love to hear it. :laughing:


A basic rookie mistake... not thinking clearly...

How do you know changing the GFCI would not of fixed the problem??:blink::blink:

When a customer complains about a AFCI tripping or a GFCI tripping... smart people change that part first and see if the problem is fixed...

More than once doing just that has solved a problem... I am sure some of you guys have found out the same thing.. *CHANGE THE PART FIRST.. :thumbsup:*


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I believe Bob did the right thing and I will remember this next time I run into a similar situation. It's strictly a liability and NEC issue and I have an interest in staying in business for years to come. And then the equipment isn't UL listed? Run Forrest run!


YES... he did all the right moves except the most important one.. changing the part...

Tell me you have never swapped out a problem AFCI or GFCI and it solved the problem??


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

He said he tested the equipment on other GFCIs. They all tripped. 

He plugged a heavy load into the original GFCI and it stayed on.

There's nothing at all to suggest the GFCI was bad, so why change it?


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

B4T said:


> A basic rookie mistake... not thinking clearly...
> 
> How do you know changing the GFCI would not of fixed the problem??:blink::blink:
> 
> ...


 
I don't agree that changing the part is the first thing you do. I would eliminate all other possibilities first, then in a last ditch effort, replace the part.
If for nothing more than it allows your customer to sleep better that night knowing you eliminated every possibility. Then and only then would I condemn their equipment.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*1) *Change out the gfci

*2)*if the unit trips again, contact SAMMIC tech support , put the ball in their court, and hand them over to the restaurant manager /owner

*3)*write out your T&M slip

_was that so hard?_

~CS~


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Parts changers :lol:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

This thread is the best!! :laughing: :laughing: 

Are you guys really electricians? :laughing: :no:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Parts changers :lol:


Well if you can't troubleshoot worth a damn just randomly toss parts at it. :laughing:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> This thread is the best!! :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> Are you guys really electricians? :laughing: :no:


only because we all flunked _human resource management_ Scott

~CS~


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> He said he tested the equipment on other GFCIs. They all tripped.
> 
> He plugged a heavy load into the original GFCI and it stayed on.
> 
> There's nothing at all to suggest the GFCI was bad, so why change it?


Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...

ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


Really, just guessing is what a qualified service electrician does?:laughing:

Glad you don't work with us, that would get expensive fast.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


:blink: That's never the first thing you do, ever. The first thing you do is see what is plugged into the GFCI receptacle.


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


I've never changed out a GFCI and the problem magically went away...


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> :blink: That's never the first thing you do, ever. The first thing you do is see what is plugged into the GFCI receptacle.


And that tells you exactly nothing... :no::no::no::no:

Customer want THAT machine working so he can make money off it... changing the GFCI just might solve the problem.....

UNTIL you try that step.... you can be guessing all week long how to solve the problem..


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Stickboy1375 said:


> I've never changed out a GFCI and the problem magically went away...


I can't help that... it has worked for me...


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


Wow. I learn something every day here. Next time I go on a call where a 600HP motor has quit, I'll suggest that.:laughing:


----------



## Stickboy1375 (Jul 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> And that tells you exactly nothing... :no::no::no::no:
> 
> Customer want THAT machine working so he can make money off it... changing the GFCI just might solve the problem.....
> 
> UNTIL you try that step.... you can be guessing all week long how to solve the problem..


The probability of a bad GFCI vs defective appliance is going to be the appliance...


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


 How do you know which parts to swap? You troubleshoot. If you troubleshoot, you know the GFCI don't need swapping.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

big2bird said:


> Wow. I learn something every day here. Next time I go on a call where a 600HP motor has quit, I'll suggest that.:laughing:


Since you missed the post... I said AFCI or GFCI... but thanks for throwing a 600HP motor into the mix... :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Changing the part is always the first thing you do because it is the fastest and most likely move to fix the problem...
> 
> ANY qualified service electrician knows that..


You service fire alarm systems, you go to a job and the FACP is in trouble and making noise. 

Do you troubleshoot it or do you just swap out the fire panel and hope that fixes it?


----------



## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

BBQ, sorry to you and the others posting on this thread. I thought this was supose to be a problem and solution type forum with a few personal experiences for entertainment and discussion. I haven't been participating on this site very long and should probably be considered a newbee oldtimer. This thread seemed to turn into a name calling and insult throwing fiasco, many aimed at you. Maybe I am taking taking this stuff too seriously. Is all this stuff just posted for fun?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

SteveBayshore said:


> BBQ, sorry to you and the others posting on this thread. I thought this was supose to be a problem and solution type forum with a few personal experiences for entertainment and discussion. I haven't been participating on this site very long and should probably be considered a newbee oldtimer. This thread seemed to turn into a name calling and insult throwing fiasco, many aimed at you. Maybe I am taking taking this stuff too seriously. Is all this stuff just posted for fun?


Nope. Everyone really hates each other. :thumbup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> How do you know which parts to swap? You troubleshoot. If you troubleshoot, you know the GFCI don't need swapping.


John.. it's not rocket science... first thing you try if a new GFCI... if it happens again... you try the other steps BBQ tried...

The bottom line is I want to tell the customer I tried a new GFCI... tried the machine in a different location.. 

Now I am 100% sure the machine is defective and causing the problem...


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You service fire alarm systems, you go to a job and the FACP is in trouble and making noise.
> 
> Do you troubleshoot it or do you just swap out the fire panel and hope that fixes it?


See post #111 for the answer to that...


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

SteveBayshore said:


> BBQ, sorry to you and the others posting on this thread. I thought this was supose to be a problem and solution type forum with a few personal experiences for entertainment and discussion. I haven't been participating on this site very long and should probably be considered a newbee oldtimer. This thread seemed to turn into a name calling and insult throwing fiasco, many aimed at you. Maybe I am taking taking this stuff too seriously. Is all this stuff just posted for fun?


Steve, it is just the Internet don't take it so seriously. It is not like real life much at all.

And yes some have given me a hard time in this thread but in other threads I have been the one giving a hard time.

For instance, I may give a member named Harry a hard time, and I really disagree with him on somethings but when he was AWOL for a while I was concerned about him. Or when B4T was sick many of us were worried about him and wished him well.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> You service fire alarm systems, you go to a job and the FACP is in trouble and making noise.
> 
> Do you troubleshoot it or do you just swap out the fire panel and hope that fixes it?


BBQ. I used to do service just like you years ago. If I learned anything, it's that 90% of the time, it's just doing it's job. 
If a motor trips out, it's overloaded.
If a CB trips, it's overloaded.
If a machine quits, the air pressure switch senses too low an air pressure.
On and on, etc............


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> See post #111 for the answer to that...


So why treat a GFCI differently? 

Why not use your skills to find the problem instead of just guessing?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

SteveBayshore said:


> BBQ, sorry to you and the others posting on this thread. I thought this was supose to be a problem and solution type forum with a few personal experiences for entertainment and discussion. I haven't been participating on this site very long and should probably be considered a newbee oldtimer. This thread seemed to turn into a name calling and insult throwing fiasco, many aimed at you. Maybe I am taking taking this stuff too seriously. Is all this stuff just posted for fun?


You are taking us all wrong.. it is not about an ample amount of red meat.. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Nope. Everyone really hates each other. :thumbup:


Damn it you suck. :laughing:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So why treat a GFCI differently?
> 
> Why not use your skills to find the problem instead of just guessing?


Because it is a $15.00 part and they can be overly sensitive.. or you could get one that is not that sensitive.. 

It is not like we have meters and scopes on the truck to measure the sensitivity of a GFCI..


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Well if you can't troubleshoot worth a damn just randomly toss parts at it. :laughing:


AC guys here are experts at that. 

From last summer










AC guy wanted said it needed a new board, I had the air back in 15 minuets. Took me 1 measurement with my fluke to find the bad joint. 










Took longer to fight the board out of the tiny control compartment then anything :laughing:


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> That is the way it is supposed to be handled, but in all fairness, it is much easier to deal with second hand employees than a homeowner on such issues. The employees are not the ones having to write the check.
> 
> With that said, I used to do extensive work in a large retirement home. We had an issue with GFI's tripping for no apparent reason. After some digging and some luck, we found that as soon as you clicked the talk button on their 2way radios, Leviton and P&S GFI's tripped. We "solved" the problem by installing Hubbell GFI's.


The control rooms I've been in have a yellow/black tape in front of the control board. No one is allowed to key their hand-held mobile unit close than 3 feet to the board. It drives all the controls crazy.


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> Because it is a $15.00 part and they can be overly sensitive.. or you could get one that is not that sensitive..
> 
> It is not like we have meters and scopes on the truck to measure the sensitivity of a GFCI..


So THAT'S why they are called female receptacles. Their overly sensitive.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Because it is a $15.00 part and they can be overly sensitive.. or you could get one that is not that sensitive..
> 
> It is not like we have meters and scopes on the truck to measure the sensitivity of a GFCI..


:laughing: :laughing: 

Classic!


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

When I replied I wasn't knocking anyone or trying to belittle anyone. I was simply stating that I would have replaced the gfci before leaving.

Do I think it would be a magical fix? Hell no. 
The only reason I would replace it is so the customer would think I did everything possible to make their faulty equipment work.

You're already on the job, they're already paying for 2 - 4 hours of labor (depending on your service minimums), what's a gfci receptacle really add to the overall cost?

When you leave they may not be 100% happy, but in their mind, they may think you did everything in your power. But if you don't change the gfci (which you KNOW won't fix the problem) they will always question that.

That is what I was trying to say. It just didn't get properly interpreted.

No harm. No foul.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

The way I see it is that the OP did his job. Case closed. Now lock this thread.:laughing:


----------



## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

drspec said:


> When I replied I wasn't knocking anyone or trying to belittle anyone. I was simply stating that I would have replaced the gfci before leaving.
> 
> Do I think it would be a magical fix? Hell no.
> The only reason I would replace it is so the customer would think I did everything possible to make their faulty equipment work.
> ...


If they asked me to, I would have. Sometimes it's in the mix.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

drspec said:


> When I replied I wasn't knocking anyone or trying to belittle anyone. I was simply stating that I would have replaced the gfci before leaving.
> 
> Do I think it would be a magical fix? Hell no.
> The only reason I would replace it is so the customer would think I did everything possible to make their faulty equipment work.
> ...


In this case it was clear the GFCI was not the problem. Then you have them complaining that they paid you to fix the problem and you didn't. All they know is they see a new plug, they have to pay you, the problem still exists. You like like an idiot and a thief.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> The way I see it is that the OP did his job. Case closed. Now lock this thread.:laughing:


Hey shut up.  :laughing:


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> In this case it was clear the GFCI was not the problem. Then you have them complaining that they paid you to fix the problem and you didn't. All they know is they see a new plug, they have to pay you, the problem still exists. You like like an idiot and a thief.


 
I agree that the gfci was clearly not the problem and would explain replacing the gfci would not fix the problem. But what's $20 - $25 at that point. 

I have ran into these situations in the past and have never been viewed as a thief. I was thanked for coming out and helping them. And the reason I know I wasn't looked at as a thief, they called me when they had other issues afterwards. :thumbup:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> ...The bottom line is I want to tell the customer I tried a new GFCI...


 And that's the trick. You do it because you want to cover that base, which is fine, but seeing as you stand a good chance of wasting a GFCI and the labor to install it, I don't think that gives you license to claim those who don't aren't qualified.


----------



## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

133 posts about the OP testing a Gfci receptacle.:laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Because it is a $15.00 part and they can be overly sensitive.. or you could get one that is not that sensitive..


Yeah, but the fact is, I tried it with another load and it did not trip.

I tried the machine on another working GFCI and it tripped that.

That does not take long and it does not require any fancy tools.

I really don't see what you are not understanding about that simple process.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I think the bottom line is that everyone has their own methods and none is right and none is wrong. I'd do exactly what BBQ did in the same situation others would do differently. 

Actually there is one wrong in the thread. You never change the GFCI receptacle first. :no: :laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Chris1971 said:


> 133 posts about the OP testing a Gfci receptacle.:laughing:


Really it's 133 posts about him not changing a GFCI receptacle. Well minus a few for cracks about a guy who works out of an empty van. :laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I think the bottom line is that everyone has their own methods and none is right and none is wrong...


 My ass! There is definitely Right and Wrong here and this thread will continue until everyone understands what it is.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Well minus a few for cracks about a guy who works out of an empty van. :laughing:


All good service electricians work out of empty vans, that leaves more room for other things.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Big John said:


> My ass! There is definitely Right and Wrong here and this thread will continue until everyone understands what it is.


:laughing:

Side note, Does Don's Lunch still exist in Westbrook?


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> And that's the trick. You do it because you want to cover that base, which is fine, but seeing as you stand a good chance of wasting a GFCI and the labor to install it,* I don't think that gives you license to claim those who don't aren't qualified.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> I don't think my remark put a dent in anyone's armor.. if I did.. it wasn't meant too....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> Classic!


Scott.. so how do you tell if a AFCI or GFCI is defective.. do tell..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Scott.. so how do you tell if a AFCI or GFCI is defective.. do tell..


Hmmmm, let's see. Press the button on it that says "test". After it trips, press the reset button. What does that have to do with the actual situation this thread is about which is not a defective, or overly sensitive  GFI, but about a defective piece of equipment.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> so how do you tell if a AFCI or GFCI is defective.. do tell.


Well in my case the moment I tried the machine in another GFCI that did not trip would be a clue.

Or when I tried it with another heavy load if it tripped that would have been a hint.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Hmmmm, let's see. Press the button on it that says "test". After it trips, press the reset button. What does that have to do with the actual situation this thread is about which is not a defective, or overly sensitive  GFI, but about a defective piece of equipment.


Why can't it be a defective GFCI... no part is 100% guaranteed to work correctly 100% of the time...


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Why can't it be a defective GFCI... no part is 100% guaranteed to work correctly 100% of the time...


It CAN be but in this case, based on the steps taken, it wasn't.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Well in my case the moment I tried the machine in another GFCI that did not trip would be a clue.
> 
> Or when I tried it with another heavy load if it tripped that would have been a hint.


All fine and good... but I still say change the GFCI first and see what happens...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> ...Does Don's Lunch still exist in Westbrook?


 Yep. Artery-clogging good. :thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> It CAN be but in this case, based on the steps taken, it wasn't.


How do you know without changing THAT GFCI.. I want to take that possibility out of the mix...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Why can't it be a defective GFCI... no part is 100% guaranteed to work correctly 100% of the time...


Your are right, and when I waked into the room I had no idea what it was going to be.

The first thing that happened was an employee showed me how it triped the GFCI.

So the first thing I did was try the GFCI outlet with a heavy load that I had brought in with me to do this. It was an electric heat gun which is a nice portable load bank. I keep one in the truck for a lot of uses.










When that did not trip the GFCI I carried the machine about 6' to another GFCI that was in use running some other things. I plugged the machine in, tried to run it and that GFCI tripped.

I put the machine on a cart and took it outside the cooler and to a loading dock that had a regular outlet and the machine worked fine on that outlet.

Case closed, bad machine. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> All fine and good... but I still say change the GFCI first and see what happens...


And I still say fine, if you just want to throw parts at a problem go for it.

I will still use a bit more mind power first.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Is that why you always have such nice hair? :thumbup: :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Is that why you always have such nice hair? :thumbup: :laughing:


:001_huh:

I don't get it. :001_huh:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> :001_huh:
> 
> I don't get it. :001_huh:


 
It took me a minute to get it.:laughing:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> So we often see threads on these forums about GFCIs tripping for no apprent reason and just as often people say remove them, bitch about the GFCIs, bitch about the code requirements for them and generally complain.
> 
> Well it finally has happened to me but strangely I found the answer was easy.
> 
> ...


Good call, Some reason this is pretty common with kitchen equipment especially those pre fabbed serving lines, the guys that assemble them like to grab neutrals off the terminal blocks randomly and every now and then they grab one off the fridge or something stupid... First time it happened to me we had to dissassemble the entire line to get to the factory terminals in the back. Since then I always power them up before I get them in place. Also see it occasionally with tabletop mixers electric cheese melters and soup warmers. IMO you did the right thing, tho you probably could have put an ammeter on the EGC to confirm it.




Big John said:


> BBQ, I get your point, but is it not fair to say you don't have the same worries about losing future business that a contractor might have when working for a small customer with whom they have no previous history? I think that's where a lot of guys get concerned about just saying "Yeah, your fridge is broke. Pay me."


I don't think thats really an issue in a this environment; a super market, restaurant etc is more conscious to these type of issues as opposed to Harry ****. Assuming the proper explanation was made. 




electricmanscott said:


> Hmmmm, let's see. Press the button on it that says "test". After it trips, press the reset button.


:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....

Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*

No commentary needed.. just reply *YES or NO*..

And this is my last post on this thread.. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*
> 
> ...


Fail :whistling2:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

B4T said:


> Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*
> 
> ...


IMO No, not likely. 

I understand this isn't something you run into on craigslist but it actually happens alot.


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## Keyrick (Nov 10, 2010)

I need 4 characters or more! No.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*
> 
> ...


It's possible had he not have tried the machine in another GFCI, but he did and it tripped them also.. So NO, it wouldn't have helped to change the GFCI.

Sorry Bob, but you seem to have "blinders" on in this thread.:jester:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

B4T said:


> Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*
> 
> ...


Since the "problem" seems to be the mixer, then no.
There is a chance the mixer could work if the new GFCI was defective,.:laughing:


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

B4T said:


> Simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. the choice is either *YES or NO*... the question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the GFCI could of fixed the problem.. *YES OR NO...*
> 
> ...


 
Huge odds against it.....no.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's not a question of some _5 min chickensh*t part_ B4T, it's a question of proper customer service.....

~CS~


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

B4T said:


> And this is my last post on this thread.. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Well that's good, because had it gone to 10 pages, I'd suspect there was some trivial arguing going on. But since you abandoned it at nine, I'm confident there's civil and rational discussion here.

:thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CraigV said:


> Well that's good, because had it gone to 10 pages, I'd suspect there was some trivial arguing going on. But since you abandoned it at nine, I'm confident there's civil and rational discussion here.
> 
> :thumbsup:


:lol::lol:


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## nstarspark (May 17, 2013)

erics37 said:


> It's a GFCI receptacle. It's tripping because there's a ground fault.


 
ground fault currents are much larger than .005 amps. I disagree that the GFCI is tripping because of a ground fault. If you had a ground fault a regular breaker would trip as well as a GFCI. The GFCI is designed to trip if there is a difference in current between the "grounded" conductor and the hot. you do not need a ground in order for a gfci to function properly.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

nstarspark said:


> ground fault currents are much larger than .005 amps. I disagree that the GFCI is tripping because of a ground fault. If you had a ground fault a regular breaker would trip as well as a GFCI. The GFCI is designed to trip if there is a difference in current between the "grounded" conductor and the hot. you do not need a ground in order for a gfci to function properly.


A high resistance ground fault would trip a GFCI device and not a standard breaker (provided the fault current was in excess of 6 ma and the GFCI device was working properly).

You can disagree with the "ground fault" statement, but in reality, that machine has a fault somewhere, and most likely it is to ground, so, a ground fault is most likely tripping the GFCI device, it is probably a high resistance ground fault.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

b4t said:


> simple question for all of the guys following this thread.. The choice is either *yes or no*... The question is that simple....
> 
> Is it possible that just changing the gfci could of fixed the problem.. *yes or no...*
> 
> ...


no !


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nstarspark said:


> ground fault currents are much larger than .005 amps. I disagree that the GFCI is tripping because of a ground fault. If you had a ground fault a regular breaker would trip as well as a GFCI. The GFCI is designed to trip if there is a difference in current between the "grounded" conductor and the hot. you do not need a ground in order for a gfci to function properly.


A GFCI measures the current going out and the current comming back, if they do not match within about 6ma they trip. The only other place the current can be going is to ground. 

As Lou said pointed out a ground fault is not always a bolted fault it can be, and often is a high resistance ground fault.


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## nstarspark (May 17, 2013)

BBQ said:


> A GFCI measures the current going out and the current comming back, if they do not match within about 6ma they trip. The only other place the current can be going is to ground.
> 
> As Lou said pointed out a ground fault is not always a bolted fault it can be, and often is a high resistance ground fault.


Great how would you test for a high resistant ground fault?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

It could also be a neutral touching ground somewhere in the machine that is giving a parallel path for neutral current (which would cause the imbalance between H/N and trip the GFCI device).

Bottom line, Bob gave a great example of good troubleshooting technique for a GFCI problem.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nstarspark said:


> Great how would you test for a high resistant ground fault?


Well they make expensive dedicated testers for it. 

http://www.productsafet.com/leakage_current.php


But you can, with care use a mega meter.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

nstarspark said:


> Great how would you test for a high resistant ground fault?


If the fault exists without the machine turned on, then you could use an ohmmeter and read between H/G and N/G. If the machine needs to be on and an action (on or by the machine) causes the fault, then it becomes a lot more challenging to find the problem.


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