# Ppe



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

We, who work for others may have the proper Personal Protective Equipment supplied, but what about you guys who work for yourself? Is it too expensive to supply? Is it too cumbersome, or time consuming to use? I would think that the Workman's Comp. people would ask this. What do you think?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If you work for yourself, you really don't need workman's comp, so nobody will be asking...

BUT... you're nuts if you don't use it when the need arises. The cost of PPE is less than just your helicopter ride to the burn unit, if you make it that far.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> If you work for yourself, you really don't need workman's comp, so nobody will be asking...
> 
> BUT... you're nuts if you don't use it when the need arises. The cost of PPE is less than just your helicopter ride to the burn unit, if you make it that far.


As usual, you are correct. I guess that I should have said "your own company". That would indicate that you may hire others. Thanks.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Even after a fellow coworker survived a serious arc-flash accident/incident, my boss remains ignorant. I have some personal ppe (that i purchased on the company account) but I don't really work on equipment where I need full protection.

My question for you guys: When is it absolutely needed and when is it just cumbersome and overkill?

Just in general.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Even after a fellow coworker survived a serious arc-flash accident/incident, my boss remains ignorant. I have some personal ppe (that i purchased on the company account) but I don't really work on equipment where I need full protection.
> 
> My question for you guys: When is it absolutely needed and when is it just cumbersome and overkill?
> 
> Just in general.


Most of the time BOTH happen at the same time. Absolutely needed, AND somewhat cumbersome.


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Even after a fellow coworker survived a serious arc-flash accident/incident, my boss remains ignorant. I have some personal ppe (that i purchased on the company account) but I don't really work on equipment where I need full protection.
> 
> My question for you guys: When is it absolutely needed and when is it just cumbersome and overkill?
> 
> Just in general.


 There is one plant where I work that you have to suit up to open a control cabinet. 
That's overkill.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> There is one plant where I work that you have to suit up to open a control cabinet.
> That's overkill.


If they've got stuff mounted in the door, like mushroom switches, HMI's, and meters and such, that's probably a fine idea. Besides, it's plainly required most of the time by 70E


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Most of the time BOTH happen at the same time. Absolutely needed, AND somewhat cumbersome.


I know it's not comfortable, even when it's needed.


I guess I should have just phrased it like this: 

When should you use it and when should you not?
What working situations?
When would you feel that the potential for arc-flash will occur and would suit up?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> There is one plant where I work that you have to suit up to open a control cabinet.
> That's overkill.


I agree with you there; that's overkill. I guess you are saying that the only voltage expected would be 120v and lower. We do not ARC FLASH LABEL our panels at that voltage. However, I think that the arc flash incidences can occur at those voltages. Maybe if you could convince that plant to place the CURRENT LIMITING (RK5) fuses in the buss plugs. That would bring the floor level panels to LEVEL 0 and a lot less cumbersome PPE.


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> If they've got stuff mounted in the door, like mushroom switches, HMI's, and meters and such, that's probably a fine idea. Besides, it's plainly required most of the time by 70E


 I guess I should have been a little more specific.
I can understand it if they have 480 in the cabinet, but alot of thier stuff is just plc cabinets, probably 60% or so or thier motors are modular equipment with local starters.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I know it's not comfortable, even when it's needed.
> 
> 
> I guess I should have just phrased it like this:
> ...


You would need to know and understand the various levels of arc flash limitations. If you are talking strictly about the suit, I would wear it if I had exposure to a level above zero. I believe that would be, for example, opening a buss plug that is on a LIVE BUSS. If I were opening a panel at the floor level, and that panel is fed from a buss plug having CURRENT LIMITING
(RK5 or equivalent) fuses, I would wear Full cover safety glasses, rubber gloves protected with leather gloves, and flash retardant clothing , which, by the way, I wear all day long, and ear plugs. If I LOCKED out the buss plug that feeds the panel, I would wear the above, up to and until I properly verified that there was no voltage present. Then, you may take the gloves and glasses/shield, off.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I know it's not comfortable, even when it's needed.
> 
> 
> I guess I should have just phrased it like this:
> ...


Knowing how to answer those questions is what makes a qualified person a qualified person. Obviously your boss has not provided your company with training either, that is sad given what already happened.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I agree with you there; that's overkill. I guess you are saying that the only voltage expected would be 120v and lower. We do not ARC FLASH LABEL our panels at that voltage. However, I think that the arc flash incidences can occur at those voltages. Maybe if you could convince that plant to place the CURRENT LIMITING (RK5) fuses in the buss plugs. That would bring the floor level panels to LEVEL 0 and a lot less cumbersome PPE.


The effectiveness of current limiting fuses on reducing arc flash levels is very misunderstood and often misapplied, this was driven by one of the fuse OEM's offering free training (Which many Ford and GM plants took advantage of). Nothing is free, the goal of these classes was to sell fuses. I have seen many plants use them and label the bus drops HRC 0 without doing the analysis, then when we did the actual arc flash study we found the drops to be much higher levels. 

A current limiting fuse is only effective in reducing arc flash levels, or incident energy, if the fault current is in the current limiting range of the fuse, in which case it clears the fault in less than 1/2 cycle. But most arcing faults are much lower, as low as 38% of bolted fault current levels for a 480V system in which case the current limiting fuse is just a regular fuse.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Zog said:


> Knowing how to answer those questions is what makes a qualified person a qualified person. Obviously your boss has not provided your company with training either, that is sad given what already happened.


Wow, nice. You're absolutely right. 
But, they were fairly general questions and i was hoping for some general answers, not a d*ckhead response.

You must be the most qualified person of all qualified persons.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Wow, nice. You're absolutely right.
> But, they were fairly general questions and i was hoping for some general answers, not a d*ckhead response.
> 
> You must be the most qualified person of all qualified persons.


If telling you the truth is being a ****head then I guess I am. The fact that you think there are short simple answers to your questions shows how little you do know. Go get some training please before someone else gets hurt at your company.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Zog said:


> If telling you the truth is being a ****head then I guess I am. The fact that you think there are short simple answers to your questions shows how little you do know. Go get some training please before someone else gets hurt at your company.


I think he was just trying to open a dialog to eventually demonstrate the importance of PPE, and not posing real questions that he had. Chill.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Unfortunately, most residential/commercial electricians are not trained regarding NFPA 70E/arc flash-arc blast requirements and take offense to the qualified/non-qualified rule. After all if you have training/apprenticeship/JW-Contractor licenses you are trained and qualified right? Wrong according to NFPA 70E. That is why several discussions come up with simple questions that do not have simple answers. Performing the calculations for the arc flash/blast takes more than most electricians/installers know and are certified to do. So when someone like ZOG response to this type of thread "LISTEN" then do a little research on the subject. 

There is a safety film of a guy who checked out all of the PPE safety gear required by his company to perform the task of changing out meters on residential/lite commercial buildings (120/240). As usual he had done this 100 times before with no problems. This time without wearing the PPE which sat 15 feet from him a meter arced, pictures weren't nice.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

OK, I will do my best here



Rudeboy said:


> When should you use it and when should you not?


There are 2 types of PPE, shock and arc flash. You are required to wear shock protection PPE anytime you cross the Restricted approach boundary of exposed live parts. Any part of the body that crosses the RAB need to be insulated with PPE rated for the voltages present. 

You are required to wear arc flash PPE anytime you cross the Arc Flash Bounday (Sometimes called the Flash Protection Boundary from old stanrards) and interact with energized equipment. Notice I said interact and made no mention of exposed live parts or not, that is because the AFB applies even with all the covers on anytime you interact with the equipment. The level or ratings of the arc flash PPE you need to wear is based on the available fault current and the clearing time of the upstream protective device which are used to calculate the Incident Energy (Ei) at a assumed working distance (Usually 18"), or if an Ei calulation is not done you can use the HRC tables in the 70E but you still need to know fault current and clearing times to know if the tables can be used (Read the notes). 



Rudeboy said:


> What working situations?


Usually just troubleshooting, voltage measurements, etc or to verify a circuit is denergized. Both OSHA and the 70E are very clear that energized work (Besides T/S) is not allowed except for certian conditions, then if those conditions apply you need to fill out an Energized Electrical Work permit, do a risk analysis, and wear the proper PPE. 



Rudeboy said:


> When would you feel that the potential for arc-flash will occur and would suit up?


 Working on energized equipment. Most often the highest arc flash levels occur on 480V systems, often high enough were no PPE can protect you. Higher voltage systems usually have much lower arc flash hazards but obviously a higher shock hazard. Assuming lower voltages mean lower arc flash hazard is a common mistake by electrical workers, sometimes thier last mistake. 

Happy?

Now go get some real training. I assume your company did not report the arc flash accident to OSHA, or maybe they are waiting until the end of the year to report it on thier 300 log. But when they do you can expect an investigation and fines for not having the proper training or PPE so your companies best interest is to be proactive.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

When looking for some training, what should I be looking for? Certification, a certificate or what? Or, should I just buy the handbook. I am one of those residential/light commercial guys. I understand where it is all coming from, just not the details. I need to know what I should be wearing, when, etc. I haven't touched 277/480 in years and really don't care to. I also work for myself by myself. That doesn't mean it isn't important either. I know I don't fall under the qualified label, thats why I am asking. Right now those training dollars are competing with the EPA RRP stuff.


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Here is a basic for you, if it is over 50v it falls in line for protective gear. The level and type of protection is based on several factors, which if you do not know would result in you wearing the max suit up until you verify the equipment dead. NFPA 70E an understanding of OSHA rules and Arc fault? flash boundaries is what you need to stay safe and legal.


And I left a Ford as a their SME for electrical safety and arc faults/flashes you need to have minimal training and wear your gear. I bought mine and my guys its worth the money and we use it.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> When looking for some training, what should I be looking for? Certification, a certificate or what? Or, should I just buy the handbook. I am one of those residential/light commercial guys. I understand where it is all coming from, just not the details. I need to know what I should be wearing, when, etc. I haven't touched 277/480 in years and really don't care to. I also work for myself by myself. That doesn't mean it isn't important either. I know I don't fall under the qualified label, thats why I am asking. Right now those training dollars are competing with the EPA RRP stuff.


Ask for a resume for the instructor, what are his qualifications? What boards and commitees has he sat on regarding the topic? What professional papers has he published?

Ask for references and actually call some of them, most training managers will be happy to give you feedback on a class and trainer.

What is the work history of the trainer? Is he just reading a canned course or is he really an expert in the feild with real life experience?

Look at the company, and the courses they offer. A red flag is a company that provides CPR, ladder safety, forklift, and oh yeah, we do arc flash training too. Look for a company that also provides arc flash surverys, engineering studies and other power system services. You want a real expert.

Your training should fit your specific needs, an Electrical Contractor has very different training needs than a large manufacturing plant. There is no such thing as a one size fits all training course. I used to customize every class I did based on the clients needs.

If the trainer does not ask you questions about your existing ESWP's, arc flash syudy, PPE program and request a pre training meeting, thats another red flag. Unless it is an open enrollment course, which is usually not as effective as one at your facility made just for you.

Remmember your training is a much larger investment than the course fee, you are setting a culture in motion that will determine how you do everything, from your PPE program, to your hazard analysis method, to your disipline program for non-compliance.

One more thing, if someone says they offer a 70E "Certification" course, run.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ok, anyone know of a good trainer in New England?


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Zog said:


> Ask for a resume for the instructor, what are his qualifications? What boards and commitees has he sat on regarding the topic? What professional papers has he published?
> 
> Ask for references and actually call some of them, most training managers will be happy to give you feedback on a class and trainer.
> 
> ...


X2 on this. Good Post Zog lot of charlatan's out their teaching canned courses, and they have no understanding of the actual materials they are certifying you in.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Ok, anyone know of a good trainer in New England?


For what? Read my post above yours.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Zog said:


> For what? Read my post above yours.


I guess he's still reading.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Forgive me, I am a little slow. What I meant to say is can you recommend someone reputable for 70E training or are you saying I should hire you? Not trying to be a smart ass, just really don't know where to look.

I am a company of one. I don't don't work on a lot of large service equipment. The largest stuff I construct is the occasional 400a residential service. That being said, I would like to learn more about the subject, nor do I think it is irrelevant to what I do either.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Forgive me, I am a little slow. What I meant to say is can you recommend someone reputable for 70E training or are you saying I should hire you? Not trying to be a smart ass, just really don't know where to look.


 I retired from training but know the players well, what I was asking was what kind of 70E training do you need. 



nrp3 said:


> I am a company of one. I don't don't work on a lot of large service equipment. The largest stuff I construct is the occasional 400a residential service. That being said, I would like to learn more about the subject, nor do I think it is irrelevant to what I do either.


Answered my question. NFPA is based in Boston and offers some quality training, or you can sign up for an open enrollemtn class in your area. Where are you located? I will find something that suits you.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> X2 on this. Good Post Zog lot of charlatan's out their teaching canned courses, and they have no understanding of the actual materials they are certifying you in.





Zog said:


> One more thing, if someone says they offer a 70E "Certification" course, run.


No such thing as a 70E certification.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I live outside Manchester NH (Manchvegas...). Boston is about an 1.5hrs south depending on traffic. I didn't realize NFPA had their own training, I will look that up tonight. Thanks.


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Zog said:


> No such thing as a 70E certification.


Now don't say their is no such thing as 70E certification Zog, just about every training program out their issues you a certification after completing their training, whether it is a regulated and useful "certification" is another issue.


----------



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Now don't say their is no such thing as 70E certification Zog, just about every training program out their issues you a certification after completing their training, whether it is a regulated and useful "certification" is another issue.


 
Is it a "Certification" or is a certificate for attending their seminar/training?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Probably the latter. It will be good enough though to get me through the required extra hours (professional development) for MA licensing come 2011. Not to trivialize it, I would like to get something out of it.


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> Is it a "Certification" or is a certificate for attending their seminar/training?


Depends on how much they want to charge you?


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Now don't say their is no such thing as 70E certification Zog, just about every training program out their issues you a certification after completing their training, whether it is a regulated and useful "certification" is another issue.


A certification requires an outside certifing body or agency. A certification requires an exam is issued securely and proctoroed by that outside certifing body. A certification requires edecational prerequisites and continuing education credits to maintain that certification that are approved by the certifing agency. There is no certifing body, agency, or program in place yet for the NFPA 70E. So, there is no such thing as a NFPA 70E certification. 

The U.S. Department of Education does not itself accredit institutions or programs, but does publish a list of *nationally recognized accrediting agencies *that the Secretary of Education "determines to be reliable authorities as to the quality of education or training provided by the institutions of higher education and the higher education programs they accredit. An agency seeking national recognition by the Secretary must meet the Secretary's procedures and criteria for the recognition of accrediting agencies, as published in the Federal Register. Some of the criteria for recognition, such as the criterion requiring a link to Federal programs, have no bearing on the quality of an accrediting agency; however, they do have the effect of making some agencies ineligible for recognition for reasons other than quality. The recognition process involves not only filing an application with the U.S. Department of Education but also review by the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity, which makes a recommendation to the Secretary regarding recognition.


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Zog said:


> A certification requires an outside certifing body or agency. A certification requires an exam is issued securely and proctoroed by that outside certifing body. A certification requires edecational prerequisites and continuing education credits to maintain that certification that are approved by the certifing agency. There is no certifing body, agency, or program in place yet for the NFPA 70E. So, there is no such thing as a NFPA 70E certification.
> 
> The U.S. Department of Education does not itself accredit institutions or programs, but does publish a list of *nationally recognized accrediting agencies *that the Secretary of Education "determines to be reliable authorities as to the quality of education or training provided by the institutions of higher education and the higher education programs they accredit. An agency seeking national recognition by the Secretary must meet the Secretary's procedures and criteria for the recognition of accrediting agencies, as published in the Federal Register. Some of the criteria for recognition, such as the criterion requiring a link to Federal programs, have no bearing on the quality of an accrediting agency; however, they do have the effect of making some agencies ineligible for recognition for reasons other than quality. The recognition process involves not only filing an application with the U.S. Department of Education but also review by the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity, which makes a recommendation to the Secretary regarding recognition.


Your missing my point Zog I have been a trainer in safety, fire, and firearms and tactics for years. I know what is required to be certified. But the problem is any group can declare itself a certifying body and start certifying courses and give them tests and standards to apply to their students to meet this certifying bodies standards.

It happens all the time most of the excepted certifying bodies today made up their own rules and they eventually became excepted and respected as the certifying bodies in their fields. 

And just because the depart. of education does not recognize someone now does not mean they cannot call their course certified, it just means they have not completed the steps to seek government recognition.

So you can say their our no government sanctioned certification courses in NFPA70E but you no there are classes that state they will provide you with certification. Whether certified by an accepted and reliable body or not is a whole other debate Zog. 

*Certification* refers to the confirmation of certain characteristics of an object, person, or organization. This confirmation is *often, but not always,* provided by some form of external review, education, or assessment.

Tests are not always required to be certified and neither are continueing education requirements. What is required is determined by the outside agency doing the certifying.


----------



## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Your missing my point Zog I have been a trainer in safety, fire, and firearms and tactics for years. I know what is required to be certified. But the problem is any group can declare itself a certifying body and start certifying courses and give them tests and standards to apply to their students to meet this certifying bodies standards.


No I get your point, in fact I just certified myself as a master if determining certification requirements and as a certified master of such things I declare a certification is only as good as the certifing body behind it. How can you argue with me, I am certified . 



AFOREMA1 said:


> So you can say their our no government sanctioned certification courses in NFPA70E but you no there are classes that state they will provide you with certification. Whether certified by an accepted and reliable body or not is a whole other debate Zog.


 That is the debate, advertising a 70E certification course is false advertising because no such thing exists, yet. 

This is a big topic in the massage industry, many states now require all massage therapists to be certified through the NCBTMB, or they are shut down. Most states have passed this law and the massage industry has been driving it to help change the happy ending image. 

Is your doctor a board certified physician? Does that matter? Can a doctors office just declare that they are a certifing agency and start certifing thier own doctors?

Every profession has thier certification agencies, in the electrical world there are NETA and NICET certified technitions. There are certified thermographers, and ther are guys who just bouight an IR camera on ebay, big difference. 

I guess the point we are both trying to make is when someone claims they are certified, or offer a certification course, the question should always be "Certified by whom?"


----------



## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Zog said:


> No I get your point, in fact I just certified myself as a master if determining certification requirements and as a certified master of such things I declare a certification is only as good as the certifing body behind it. How can you argue with me, I am certified .
> 
> That is the debate, advertising a 70E certification course is false advertising because no such thing exists, yet.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbup:

We're on the same page Zog they just started this with tax preparers now as well requireing them to meet minimum guide lines and standards. I wish they would regulate all these diploma mills and "experts" certified by people and groups that have no clue what it is they are accrediting. It makes it harder for less knowledgeable people to get legit training and wastes money they do not have.


----------

