# Panel change



## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

See any issues?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The only issue I see is no pic. LOL


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Heres the pic


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Looks like SEU to a sub panel. Where is the equipment grounding conductor


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Panel pic


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Panel pic 2


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Those piggyback breakers drive me crazy.

I just ran into a an entire 200amp service panel of piggybacks.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Disco at meter box outside


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Looks like you might have some #14 on those twenties bottom right.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Other than the fact that it looks like a rats nest, nope no issues. Lol


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Okay I see it is ser now.... but is the neutral bar on the left connected to the ground bar on the right thru the metal strap that goes behind the bus???


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay I see it is ser now.... but is the neutral bar on the left connected to the ground bar on the right thru the metal strap that goes behind the bus???


Sure does.


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

there is no anti-oxidant on that aluminum. :laughing: :laughing:


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Take a look at the top left " 2 pole breaker"


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

Its nice the dishwasher/disposal is labeled


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Wait wait I know I know! It's mounted in a single wall constructed house right in the entryway???!?!?!???


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

That top left 20 Amp(s) is the hwh.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Nope located outside laundry room in a hallway.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

is it just me or does it appear the gfi nuetrals are not connected?:whistling2:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

vasparky27 said:


> Take a look at the top left " 2 pole breaker"


They used nails to make the sp's a dp breaker but what about the neutral and ground bars as I stated earlier


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

ok, upon further review its just the twist in the wire that makes them appear not connected


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Nuetral and groundbars are attached your correct.....oops


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Looks like the bussbar "guts" have too be removed to get it out.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

vasparky27 said:


> Nuetral and groundbars are attached your correct.....oops


If its not done elsewhere it should be done their.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> If its not done elsewhere it should be done their.


??????? Lost me they are / are not supposed too be seperated ground bar and nuetral bar?


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay I see it is ser now.... but is the neutral bar on the left connected to the ground bar on the right thru the metal strap that goes behind the bus???


Yes the bar runs under the bussbar " guts" of the panel.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> They used nails to make the sp's a dp breaker but what about the neutral and ground bars as I stated earlier


Peice of 12 wire was used too make the two sp's a dp lol


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Are we looking at this fed via SEU, and a *bare* al on _each_ Nbar side .....?:001_huh:~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Are we looking at this fed via SEU, and a *bare* al on _each_ Nbar side .....?:001_huh:~CS~


No it is ser with the neutral feeding the left neutral bar and the equipment grounding conductor feeding the right bar and the two are connected together-- that's a NO NO 

I am not sure why there is an equipment grounding bar in there as it has no conductors.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well ok, changing a feeder to a captive panel can be a bear

So where does this go VA ? 30 cir upgrade?

~CS~


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Are those red handled twin breakers listed for that panel?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Are those red handled twin breakers listed for that panel?


No they are not and the one across from it is probably not either -- there are also 2 wires under a breaker in one spot. 

There are a few issue but the biggest one that I would be concerned with is to separate the neutral and grounds.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

vasparky27 said:


> ??????? Lost me they are / are not supposed too be seperated ground bar and nuetral bar?


That's the factory MBJ that attaches both busses together. If its not bonded at the transformer outside then it needs to be done their.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Chrisibew440 said:


> That's the factory MBJ that attaches both busses together. If its not bonded at the transformer outside then it needs to be done their.


What are you talking about??? That's a sub panel with a disconnect outside at the meter. The neutral and ground are bonded there as they should be at the first source of OCP.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Okay I see it is ser now.... but is the neutral bar on the left connected to the ground bar on the right thru the metal strap that goes behind the bus???


...And nobody died?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> ...And nobody died?


May we infer that you think the separation of ground and neutral after the 1st means of disconnect is not worthy of compliance or enforcement? 

Just curious.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> ...And nobody died?


And probably no one ever will so that justifies doing it incorrectly. Sounds like the op may have done that part so he needs to change it -- I would not take that chance IF something did go wrong


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

I was helping a "licensed electrician" who my uncle has more faith in because he is "licensed". (Turns out hes not but my uncle saved some money by calling him) I saw some issues and wanted too ask some people I trust (because I've been a member of this forum for a while). Thanks for the help I will correct all issues. Some of the original breakers were reused too "save money". The original panel was Bryant, the new panel is CH BR.


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## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

Theres the problem "almost a sparky"


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Um. Ok???? My being honest that I dont know everything about electrical is the problem....I see, thank you Ill try too correct that too lol


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> What are you talking about??? That's a sub panel with a disconnect outside at the meter. The neutral and ground are bonded there as they should be at the first source of OCP.


Easy big guy. I don't know that and all I was stating was that if its not then it should be their.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Disco at meter outside. Sorry should have posted earlier. "Confusion keeps me on my toez"


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Easy big guy. I don't know that and all I was stating was that if its not then it should be their.


No. What you were saying made absolutely no sense whatsoever. There's no main in that panel, how and why does the transformer come into play??


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Instead of removing the MBJ in that panel what should be done is add a ground bar and run the EGC to the ground bar.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

I was planning on a 30 circuit panel but the feeder is #2 seu cable. HD dosen't carry em.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

vasparky27 said:


> I was planning on a 30 circuit panel but the feeder is #2 seu cable. HD dosen't carry em.


Feeder size doesn't matter in this case because its protected by a breaker outside. You can install a 200 amp ML panel if you wanted to.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Going for it 40/40 SqD QO panel. Afci breakers all the way! :what:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Instead of removing the MBJ in that panel what should be done is add a ground bar and run the EGC to the ground bar.


I know we all know it, but I figure I would say it.

Make sure to not install the bonding screw in the neutral bar.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

The original panel had a damaged buss due too a dryer motor problem, breaker and buss were melted. I'm not replacing the panel a second time (I would but it would come out of my pocket) I will take care of what has been mentioned and post pics when it dosent look like spaghetti. Thanks guys


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Easy big guy. I don't know that and all I was stating was that if its not then it should be their.


I think the fact that the feeder was 4 wire (SER) should have made you realize that. No biggie we all overlook things.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

4 conductor or #4 wire ?


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Heres one from a few weeks ago.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

vasparky27 said:


> 4 conductor or #4 wire ?


Fixed it so it is clear


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

vasparky27 said:


> The original panel had a damaged buss due too a dryer motor problem, breaker and buss were melted. I'm not replacing the panel a second time (I would but it would come out of my pocket) I will take care of what has been mentioned and post pics when it dosent look like spaghetti. Thanks guys



Why would damage from a dryer motor problem cause you to eat the cost of changing out the panel?


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

The original panel was changed due too a meltdown. I would like to replace it again as I dont like minis and am all in favor of "room too add on later" but its not gonna happen because the HO (my uncle) sees no problem w it as is. Yes it was my job I tried to save him money and as it turned out I ate the material cost anyway.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think the fact that the feeder was 4 wire (SER) should have made you realize that. No biggie we all overlook things.


I've just taught myself never to assume anything in this trade. I've lived and worked in Hawaii and seen the electrical their. Unfortunately the lack of money brings the lack of craftsmanship.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I've just taught myself never to assume anything in this trade. I've lived and worked in Hawaii and seen the electrical their. Unfortunately the lack of money brings the lack of craftsmanship.


I just figured it was the hurricaines and improper building materials.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

vasparky27 said:


> I just figured it was the hurricaines and improper building materials.


That too. Lol.

Kinda cool story: we were adding receps in a house and dragging circuits under the pad and I was doing the crawling. So I rounded a corner underneath the house and there was a payload of conch shells (about 8). They were new HO's and they didn't know they were their and didn't want them. I left that day with about $1000 or more in shells.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

vasparky27 said:


> Disco at meter outside. Sorry should have posted earlier. "Confusion keeps me on my toez"


why is there a lizard on your breaker?


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

Hawaii has lots of geckos. I didnt even see it


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

vasparky27 said:


> The original panel was changed due too a meltdown. I would like to replace it again as I dont like minis and am all in favor of "room too add on later" but its not gonna happen because the HO (my uncle) sees no problem w it as is. Yes it was my job I tried to save him money and as it turned out I ate the material cost anyway.


Another electrical life lesson.

Don't work for family (if at all possible).


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> why is there a lizard on your breaker?


He's going to explain proper grounding and contractor liability @ coffee break.....








:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Are those red handled twin breakers listed for that panel?


They might be if they are Bryant.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't understand this. Where are all the EGC's? Is there even anything connected to that ground bus in the lower left corner?


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Pharon said:


> I don't understand this. Where are all the EGC's? Is there even anything connected to that ground bus in the lower left corner?


Have you read any of the posts regarding this. He doesn't have the neutral bars separated and landed the neutrals on the left side and the grounds on the right side.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

Oh my bad. I didn't see the grounds on that right bar originally, but I see them now.

So it's either remove the metal strap or relocate the EGC's to the ground bar at the lower left.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Pharon said:


> Oh my bad. I didn't see the grounds on that right bar originally, but I see them now.
> 
> So it's either remove the metal strap or relocate the EGC's to the ground bar at the lower left.


Yup. But chances are hell have to relocate the ground bar to the top of the can because his EGC won't reach the lower left.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

Sounds like it would be easier to just remove the strap. And in the process have a second chance to neaten up those phase conductors.


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## vasparky27 (Sep 3, 2010)

meadow said:


> They might be if they are Bryant.


Yes they are Bryant.


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