# Screened in enclosed porch/deck



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Customer want switches for lighting in this area and not inside the house. I classified this as a damp area, flip covers on receptacles. They frowned at the talk of a bubble cover or flip cover for the dimmer and fan control. what would be a solution to change that frown to a smile without safety concerns, Code would be nice but as important.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There is not many alternative and be compliant. However you do realize that bubble covers are probably not necessary on a screened porch. Just use standard wp covers.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Why are you considering it a damp location?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> Why are you considering it a damp location?


Look at the title. It is a screened in porch.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*porch*

yep. I had to put in 12 bubble covers for rec and switches for just that. I waiting til the inspector passed it, then changed them all out to flat type when he was walking around corner per H.O.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> yep. I had to put in 12 bubble covers for rec and switches for just that. I waiting til the inspector passed it, then changed them all out to flat type when he was walking around corner per H.O.


You usually won't need a bubble cover on a screen porch.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I saw the "enclosed" part . We have a company that makes sunrooms that have screens you can spray with a water hose and not get wet.Would the devices be subject to moderate degrees of moisture?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Read this......



> 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
> (A) Damp Locations. A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).
> An installation suitable for wet locations shall also be considered suitable for damp locations.
> A receptacle shall be considered to be in a location protected from the weather where located under roofed open porches, canopies, marquees, and the like, and will not be subjected to a beating rain or water runoff. All 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt nonlocking receptacles shall be a listed weather-resistant type.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Read this......


 Now post the definition of "damp location"


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Read this......


 I have not seen a WR switch , dimmer or fan control. Do they exist ?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Would you still have to use WP covers if you used low voltage switching? I'm not sure and I'm too lazy this morning to go look it up, just throwing that out there.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> Now post the definition of "damp location"


I assume you have a book and can read it. I believe a porch is a damp location not a wet location


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I assume you have a book and can read it. I believe a porch is a damp location not a wet location


 A porch is not a damp location unless it is subject to moderate degrees of moisture.The area of the device location in a covered enclosed porch may not be subject to moderate degrees of moisture so it would not be a damp location.A basement could be a damp location or a dry location also.It has nothing to do with the area but wether or not it is subject to moisture.


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)




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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Ninety said:


>


 Have you ever found these without "on" and Off' for three way switches?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> A porch is not a damp location unless it is subject to moderate degrees of moisture.The area of the device location in a covered enclosed porch may not be subject to moderate degrees of moisture so it would not be a damp location.A basement could be a damp location or a dry location also.It has nothing to do with the area but wether or not it is subject to moisture.


I have to disagree with you. If it is outside in a covered space it is subject to moisture. And yes, crawl spaces , etc also fit that description however it is not enforced. This however is enforced around here. I will say this, it is bS because I have switches and recep. on my own porch with standard plates and they have worked fine for 20 years. I don't know why it is enforced.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Ninety said:


>


Those are great till you have a dimmer involved


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have to disagree with you. If it is outside in a covered space it is subject to moisture. And yes, crawl spaces , etc also fit that description however it is not enforced. This however is enforced around here. I will say this, it is bS because I have switches and recep. on my own porch with standard plates and they have worked fine for 20 years. I don't know why it is enforced.


 If you look at the definition it says "roofed *open* porches" .If the customer has a flat screen TV plugged into the outlet I don't think its getting wet. Our inspector agreed that the inside wall of enclosed porches was not considered damp location .


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## Ninety (Jan 7, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Those are great till you have a dimmer involved


You could use the dimming switch with the dimmer built into the traditional looking switch but is dimmed as it is moved up and down. The WP switch cover isn't spring loaded if I remember correctly, it just moves the regular switch up and down inside the cover.


Mr Rewire said:


> Have you ever found these without "on" and Off' for three way switches?


No actually.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> If you look at the definition it says "roofed *open* porches" .If the customer has a flat screen TV plugged into the outlet I don't think its getting wet. Our inspector agreed that the inside wall of enclosed porches was not considered damp location .


A screened porched is not an enclosed porch.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> A screened porched is not an enclosed porch.


 Welcome to the grey area . Define 'enclosed'.Is it enclosed with screen?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> Welcome to the grey area . Define 'enclosed'.Is it enclosed with screen?


Rewire-- I am not going there with you. Do as you like. With a response like that I have no interest in the argument.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Rewire-- I am not going there with you. Do as you like. With a response like that I have no interest in the argument.


 You would make a lousy inspector you run just when you start to loose.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> You would make a lousy inspector you run just when you start to loose.


Sorry there Rewire, in this case you are the looser. I agree with Dennis.


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## fiddler (Jun 2, 2010)

Speaking as an inspector a screened in porch is definately a damp location.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Porch*

my inspector says if you spray a hose from outside at screen and it comes in pretty good (getting rec/switches wet) then it is wet. The one we did does let a lot of spray water in when storms hit by the way it's situated. Hence, bubble covers.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> my inspector says if you spray a hose from outside at screen and it comes in pretty good (getting rec/switches wet) then it is wet. The one we did does let a lot of spray water in when storms hit by the way it's situated. Hence, bubble covers.


It is truly an inspectors call on this but an occasional spray with no saturation from water would be damp location by definition.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

fiddler said:


> Speaking as an inspector a screened in porch is definately a damp location.


 Why? Is the entire area subject to moderate amounts of moisture or are you just saying its a porch? Luckily the inspectors around here know how to read EVERY word in the code.:whistling2:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is truly an inspectors call on this but an occasional spray with no saturation from water would be damp location by definition.


 Have you ever read the definition of DRY LOCATION ?"may be temporarily subject to wetness"


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Inspector*

My inspector said because it was on the west/sw side of house it was going to get pummeled by all the storms as that is their normal approach angle. He said maybe if it was on the east side in middle I could have done narrow flap type covers. It get's totally soaked when there is big storm owner tells me.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> Have you ever read the definition of DRY LOCATION ?"may be temporarily subject to wetness"


It also says not normally subjected to dampness or wetness. IMO, being outside like there it is normally subject to dampness esp. in NC in the summer. Now AZ you may have a good argument.


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## fiddler (Jun 2, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Why? Is the entire area subject to moderate amounts of moisture or are you just saying its a porch? Luckily the inspectors around here know how to read EVERY word in the code.:whistling2:


Both


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm with Dennis. Definitely damp location.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Rewire-- I am not going there with you. Do as you like. With a response like that I have no interest in the argument.


 As much as I hate to say it I agree with Rewire on this one. And why would you not want to discuss the defininition of enclosed? I think this whole thread hinges on that very definition. Or is it just that someone disagrees with you?

If a porch is "walled in" it is no longer a porch, it is a room.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

News just got back, I'm not doing this one, they got someone cheaper , the same guy who they had before me, a 68 yr old retired union guy. Let him have the fun, I can't compete with retired union guys working for 25 an hour. Just don't ask me for any paper when the town wants it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> As much as I hate to say it I agree with Rewire on this one. And why would you not want to discuss the defininition of enclosed? I think this whole thread hinges on that very definition. Or is it just that someone disagrees with you?
> 
> If a porch is "walled in" it is no longer a porch, it is a room.


I can handle a disagreement and don't mind admitting when I am wrong- and believe me it is often, but I am not going to argue whether a screen encloses a porch makes it any different then no screen. There is still the same amount of moisture involved. I also don't think that they should require WP plates in that situation but , IMO, it is clear. 

I will argue the other points, as I have done, but not the fact that a screen is what the NEC was talking about.


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## fiddler (Jun 2, 2010)

The defination you need to be concerned with here is not "enclosed" but "damp locations". Heck put a fence around it and it's enclosed, does that mean it's no longer a damp location? Flip covers yes, bubble covers no.


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