# 4160 installations and service pics



## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

Show me some great 4160 installs, or even 277/480 installs


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Wasn't that you who built one in mom's back yard fed from a dryer outlet?
Is that thing on YouTube?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Metersocket648 said:


> Show me some great 4160 installs, or even 277/480 installs


Look at some of my posts, you will get a goose-pimply erection.


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

MikeFL said:


> Wasn't that you who built one in mom's back yard fed from a dryer outlet?
> Is that thing on YouTube?


Yes 😂 it’s no longer a dryer outlet, it’s now a disconnect then a 50 amp 4 prong outlet 😂 I rewired that entire structure


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The last 4160 we did was a 2500 hp motor. We ran the conduit and wire but subbed out the terminations. The same job had a 1 mega watt 4160 generator that hit a xfmr and stepped up to 12,500volts . Same thing we piped everything but subbed out the terminations.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Why sub the terms? They take some time but are easy as all get out if you have a Speed Systems stripper and decent 3m or Raychem kits. Oh yea and a hydro crimper.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

SWDweller said:


> Why sub the terms? They take some time but are easy as all get out if you have a Speed Systems stripper and decent 3m or Raychem kits. Oh yea and a hydro crimper.


Or shear bolts.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

SWDweller said:


> Why sub the terms? They take some time but are easy as all get out if you have a Speed Systems stripper and decent 3m or Raychem kits. Oh yea and a hydro crimper.


Not sure what you are referring to on the stripper. There are a crap ton of URD strippers but they are useless on anything other than hard URD style insulation and unless you do a lot of testing all they do is nick the conductors. Hand stripping works 100% of the time without nicks on any cable type. The type of crimper isn’t as critical as the shape. Below 10 kV you can get away with indent crimpers. Above that better be doing hex crimps AND still file the edges. A battery hydraulic crimper is MUCH easier but a lot if utilities are too cheap to buy them and a lot of utility linemen have used hand crimpers for years without problems. On 3-6 crimps especially on 4/0 or less hand crimpers are faster and lighter. Above that size I’ll dig the hydraulic crimper out.

I have seen a LOT of screwed up terminations. There are some basic rules like cut semicon layers as square as possible especially and no nicks in it no matter what (start over if you do). Square corners applies to every layer but semicon layers are more critical. Clean every possible bit if carbon black from the semicon with both sanding and wiping, use a tape to measure the lengths (no “close enough”), make sure there are no air bubbles and tape layers are as even as possible, and so forth. The higher the voltage the more critical everything gets. It’s not the tools that are important so much as the skill and experience of whoever does it. Doing good MV terminations greatly improves your LV skills where you can get away with almost anything.

The reality is that voltage is electron pressure. You can get away with a hose clamp with a garden hose but that is just a projectile with a hydraulic line. And you can’t put the fitting on with a screwdriver. Everybody knows hydraulic hoses require special fittings. MV is no different.

I also see a lot of sloppy cable routing with unshielded cable especially from some manufacturers (GE in particular).

It helps a lot to at least get manufacturer trained (3M, Raychem, etc.) but even without it 3M has a nice 20-30 minute PowerPoint explaining MV terminations that helps a lot when you know why you are doing what you are doing.

Hence…many companies contract out terminations.

I have a lot of photos over the years but other than a few examples of ingenious ******* engineering must are screw ups by others that I had to document.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

The terminations are easy just follow the instructions


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

If you get a spare spring ring from a 3m kit it makes cutting the cable easier. Just measure then install the ring and use it as a cutting guide.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

gpop said:


> If you get a spare spring ring from a 3m kit it makes cutting the cable easier. Just measure then install the ring and use it as a cutting guide.


I put a zip tie around the copper tape shield to make that cut back score it and it peels right off and use flush cutters to clean up the edge. Then For the simicon i make 2 scores 1/8 apart down the simi con layer to the cut back mark and hit it with a heat gun for a sec and it peels right off I use bent needle nose pliers grab it and keep rolling them over on itself


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Slay301 said:


> I put a zip tie around the copper tape shield to make that cut back score it and it peels right off and use flush cutters to clean up the edge. Then For the simicon i make 2 scores 1/8 apart down the simi con layer to the cut back mark and hit it with a heat gun for a sec and it peels right off I use bent needle nose pliers grab it and keep rolling them over on itself


My method is similar only I use tape as the score guide. I'll have to try the ty-wrap.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Started out doing tape splices
These 3m kits are like cheating


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Hardest part of the connection in florida is cleaning the cables before installing the boot. Many of times ive had to go sit in the truck with the ac on as i need a few minutes with out sweating on the cables. It also means we need 5 times more cleaning kits as one drip and we have to go back and repeat the cleaning again.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

gpop said:


> Hardest part of the connection in florida is cleaning the cables before installing the boot. Many of times ive had to go sit in the truck with the ac on as i need a few minutes with out sweating on the cables. It also means we need 5 times more cleaning kits as one drip and we have to go back and repeat the cleaning again.


Your boy all for sitting in the ac for a min but never had that problem


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Slay301 said:


> I put a zip tie around the copper tape shield to make that cut back score it and it peels right off and use flush cutters to clean up the edge. Then For the simicon i make 2 scores 1/8 apart down the simi con layer to the cut back mark and hit it with a heat gun for a sec and it peels right off I use bent needle nose pliers grab it and keep rolling them over on itself


On CPE or tough EPDM use a pair of hood nippers. It is too dull to cut and pries better. Often needle nose just rips Ir.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

gpop said:


> Hardest part of the connection in florida is cleaning the cables before installing the boot. Many of times ive had to go sit in the truck with the ac on as i need a few minutes with out sweating on the cables. It also means we need 5 times more cleaning kits as one drip and we have to go back and repeat the cleaning again.


It’s just alcohol swabs. Either buy the medical grade ones or bring a gallon of denatured alcohol and lint free rags. Wipe all you want.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

paulengr said:


> On CPE or tough EPDM use a pair of hood nippers. It is too dull to cut and pries better. Often needle nose just rips Ir.


Heat it up and it doesn’t


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Service crew here so a lot of termination jobs are emergency. I can do tape terminations with capacitive grading putty almost as fast as a 3M QT 2/3 kit. It’s cheaper, terminations are half the length, and we don’t have to stock a dozen different kits. If we get a job we can plan ahead then we get a QT style kit: but you still do all the same prep work, all the same drains, all the same mastics. It just saves 30 seconds to apply grading putty and 10 minutes on the 70/130C/88 layers.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

paulengr said:


> Service crew here so a lot of termination jobs are emergency. I can do tape terminations with capacitive grading putty almost as fast as a 3M QT 2/3 kit. It’s cheaper, terminations are half the length, and we don’t have to stock a dozen different kits. If we get a job we can plan ahead then we get a QT style kit: but you still do all the same prep work, all the same drains, all the same mastics. It just saves 30 seconds to apply grading putty and 10 minutes on the 70/130C/88 layers.


I just call the supply house and get them out of bed to sell a kit we do enough of them they do that for us


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Here’s an old one. Not sure what it was, but I thought it looked cool so I snapped a picture. It’s obviously not used anymore. Looks expensive.


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thought I'd throw this in....Contractor I worked for was...well let say-too THRIFTY to buy the proper penciling and stripping tools. So with raiser knife in hand-did dozens of load break and non load break terminations. My hands were scared up for weeks! This one is just a practice piece I did at home.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

radio208 said:


> Thought I'd throw this in....Contractor I worked for was...well let say-too THRIFTY to buy the proper penciling and stripping tools. So with raiser knife in hand-did dozens of load break and non load break terminations. My hands were scared up for weeks! This one is just a practice piece I did at home.
> View attachment 158122


Penciling and stripping tools are a
Joke razor works better. I do wear latex gloves while using the citrus cleaner it will dry your hands out


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I watched 2 contractors putting the boot on a 14.4kv (25kv) load break elbow when the power came back on. They got a little toasted. Had it happened 30 seconds earlier they wouldn't have survived it. 

After that they sent me on a course and we no longer used contractors to install the elbow's.


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

These were done at a high school----primary was 21KV...cable was [email protected] 35 KV--not sure why the higher rating-but that was alot more stripping time!


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

radio208 said:


> These were done at a high school----primary was 21KV...cable was [email protected] 35 KV--not sure why the higher rating-but that was alot more stripping time!


I’m trying to find a better supplier than what I have for 14.4kV and 5k, either I end up getting a refund because nothing ever gets shipped or it the wrong cable


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Metersocket648 said:


> I’m trying to find a better supplier than what I have for 14.4kV and 5k, either I end up getting a refund because nothing ever gets shipped or it the wrong cable


Why don’t you just get a 3m sales rep?


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

Slay301 said:


> Started out doing tape splices
> These 3m kits are like cheating


You know there’s a kit for that 😁😁


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HertzHound said:


> Here’s an old one. Not sure what it was, but I thought it looked cool so I snapped a picture. It’s obviously not used anymore. Looks expensive.


hmmm... I think it's a pothead. Heheh. heheheh.

Pothead - Wikipedia


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## DragnUp (Jun 18, 2021)

VRU - Vapor Recovery Unit x 3 - total bitch and a half. at least the weather was nice. who can guess where this is? if you look real hard you can see antelope in the background


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

paulengr said:


> Service crew here so a lot of termination jobs are emergency. I can do tape terminations with capacitive grading putty almost as fast as a 3M QT 2/3 kit. It’s cheaper, terminations are half the length, and we don’t have to stock a dozen different kits. If we get a job we can plan ahead then we get a QT style kit: but you still do all the same prep work, all the same drains, all the same mastics. It just saves 30 seconds to apply grading putty and 10 minutes on the 70/130C/88 layers.


That's great for guys like you that learned how to do tape termination. But for a guy that's staring down at his first termination, the 3M kits are almost idiot-proof as long as you can read the instructions and maybe have a mentor to show you a few tips.

I was proof of that many years ago.......


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

joe-nwt said:


> That's great for guys like you that learned how to do tape termination. But for a guy that's staring down at his first termination, the 3M kits are almost idiot-proof as long as you can read the instructions and maybe have a mentor to show you a few tips.
> 
> I was proof of that many years ago.......


I’d do a 3m term over a tape term anyday


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> Here’s an old one. Not sure what it was, but I thought it looked cool so I snapped a picture. It’s obviously not used anymore. Looks expensive.
> View attachment 158120


Yep, pothead. They last for years until they start leaking unnoticed on the inside of the switchgear entry version. Once enough of the insulating compound (some kind of tar like substance) leaks out, the results are spectacular! That tar stuff will just about paint the entire room!


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> Yep, pothead. They last for years until they start leaking unnoticed on the inside of the switchgear entry version. Once enough of the insulating compound (some kind of tar like substance) leaks out, the results are spectacular! That tar stuff will just about paint the entire room!


“Tar” is just rubber tape or mastic that overheated and melted out.

This article covers capacitive vs geometric stress control.



https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1622497O/geometric-vs-capacitive-stress-control-whitepaper-english.PDF



I agree that IF you know what you are doing with MV that a cold shrink kit is hard to screw up. But I disagree that it’s the cold shrink kit. Capacitive grading is just plain easier to do and less failure prone. That’s why we do capacitive grading period, both taped and cold shrink terminations (heat shrink too but that’s rare).

The second advantage of capacitive grading is that geometric grading has an uneven stress even if it is a perfect job. With voltage transients you get catastrophic failures. Capacitive grading is more even and spreads the transient stress over the whole termination.



https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1622497O/geometric-vs-capacitive-stress-control-whitepaper-english.PDF



The big downside of capacitive grading is the termination length. Look at the link above on page 9. A 3M cold shrink termination is a minimum of 12-14 inches long. A stress cone is only about 3-4 inches. You can get some of this back with taped capacitive grading which needs about 6 inches. This does not sound like much but on indoor terminations often there just isn’t room for a cold shrink kit.

3M never tells you about the termination length issue with cold shrinks and will deflect by telling you that you should have bought a whole termination cabinet. I think they should be up front about this issue because it’s something we see a lot.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

paulengr said:


> “Tar” is just rubber tape or mastic that overheated and melted out.


This would be the stuff I've seen. Don't know exactly what it is.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> This would be the stuff I've seen. Don't know exactly what it is.


Just a guess, but it looks like transformer oil (dielectric oil)


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Maybe, but I have yet to see black transformer oil. Maybe old xfmer oil was black and thick like molasses?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

yeah, I was thinking of the old stuff we'd take out of the transformers ... with PCBs !
It was black and molasses like by then.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Potting that goes between the conductor and the insulator.


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