# add 2 rods just because you replaced a panel?



## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

I replaced a panel . It was a 100 amp 12 circuit panel so I pulled it out and replaced it with a 20 circuit panel. Didn't do anything to the service.

There were no ground rods,now the inspector wants me to install 2 ground rods???????

The house has a very low crawlspace. The service is underground, there is a giant concrete slab around the service.

So this guys told me to run the number 6 thru the crawl and install the rods on the other side of the house,its a 100 ft run?

I say go piss up a rope, I didn't do the service.

What say you guys?

BTW this was done in march of 2007. As far as I had known the job had passed, I just came into the office,read this fax. I fought with him about it then and the state supposedly told him he was wrong.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Personally, part of a panel change for me is to make sure the system is properly grounded. That said, it is possible to be right and have no ground rods. For example with a Ufer ground.

If I change a panel, I make sure it is grounded right. If it isn't, that is part of the job. If it is, tell the inspector to show you how he thinks it isn't.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I just did a fuse panel to breakker panel swap yesterday and drove two rods. Wouldn't do it any other way.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> What say you guys?



Like the others I tend to plan on upgrading the GES but I thought you guys had some sort of 'rehab code' that would let you slide on this?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Like the others I tend to plan on upgrading the GES but I thought you guys had some sort of 'rehab code' that would let you slide on this?


If adding the rods was easy I would do it,but to hammer drill thru decorative poured concrete isn't,especially since this job was supposedly approved five years ago

We do have a rehab code.

There is a water ground.

There is an ufer ground.

I just dug up my paperwork from 07 and even found the letter from the DCA's office telling the inspector that in their eyes the install was to code and they could send someone out to look at it if he wanted them to.

Try telling that to a home owner that was handed a passed sticker for the job 5 years ago.

This inspector must be real bored....


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

No rods are required with a ufer


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Well, it has water ground, it has a Ufer, and it has a CO, tell him GFY.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No rods are required with a ufer


^^^^^^^^This is correct ^^^^^^^^^^^​


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No rods are required with a ufer


Mcclary it's an either or thing right. (I don't have my code book in front of me now). Choose one from column A and one from coloum B.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> I replaced a panel . It was a 100 amp 12 circuit panel so I pulled it out and replaced it with a 20 circuit panel. Didn't do anything to the service.
> 
> There were no ground rods,now the inspector wants me to install 2 ground rods???????
> 
> ...


Why would you not do what he asked?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Why would you not do what he asked?


Why should he?

Will you pay for the parts and labor?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Why would you not do what he asked?


 
No way I would either.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Why should he?
> 
> Will you pay for the parts and labor?


It would most likely take about a half an hour to do what was necessary. Two rods, a piece of cake. The system will be safer. Since you chimed in , why do you suppose that the inspector wanted it in the first place?


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## jarhead0531 (Jun 1, 2010)

*Rehab code trumps all*

If the service size stayed the same, then no you do NOT have to drive 2 ground rods. What you did is considered a repair and as such falls under the NJ Rehab code. Tell the inspector to pound sand, and if he insist on being a douche, call the DCA on him.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It would most likely take about a half an hour to do what was necessary. Two rods, a piece of cake. The system will be safer. Since you chimed in , why do you suppose that the inspector wanted it in the first place?


 

150 bucks in material and 125 time to install just because some loopy inspector is making wishes?? No friggin way


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> It would most likely take about a half an hour to do what was necessary.


Said like a man who does not have to worry about silly things like profit.




RIVETER said:


> Two rods, a piece of cake. The system will be safer.


Really, what will be safer about it?

There is an existing grounding electrode system



19kilosparky984 said:


> There is a water ground.
> 
> There is an ufer ground.





RIVETER said:


> Since you chimed in , why do you suppose that the inspector wanted it in the first place?


My best guess is the inspector is uneducated.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> It would most likely take about a half an hour to do what was necessary. Two rods, a piece of cake. The system will be safer. Since you chimed in , why do you suppose that the inspector wanted it in the first place?


So it's a piece of cake to jackhammer up a decorative concrete slab to install 2 ground rods ?

I value most of the guys opinions on here.

You definitely aren't one of them.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No way I would either.


Yes you would...and you know it. What he is asking is not unnecessary. Why would you leave a job knowing that a service possibly may not be properly grounded?


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## SPINA ELECTRIC (Dec 1, 2009)

I have a 100 amp federal panel change out comming up and I asked the inspector if he wanted me to bring the grounding up to code he said once you change the panel you have to.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Yes you would...and you know it. What he is asking is not unnecessary. Why would you leave a job knowing that a service possibly may not be properly grounded?


There is a water ground and an ufer ground.

Wow not only do you not understand basic electrical code you can't even read.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

SPINA ELECTRIC said:


> I have a 100 amp federal panel change out comming up and I asked the inspector if he wanted me to bring the grounding up to code he said once you change the panel you have to.


I wouldn't have even asked him its rehab


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Yes you would...and you know it. What he is asking is not unnecessary. Why would you leave a job knowing that a service possibly may not be properly grounded?


 
I have never ever ever drove ground rods when a ufer has been installed. On top of that he has a water pipe GE also. He is good to go.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Yes you would...and you know it. What he is asking is not unnecessary. Why would you leave a job knowing that a service possibly may not be properly grounded?


It has an NEC compliant grounding electrode system.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

SPINA ELECTRIC said:


> I have a 100 amp federal panel change out comming up and I asked the inspector if he wanted me to bring the grounding up to code he said once you change the panel you have to.


That is true but what a person has to think about is what is important in regards to an electrical service. Sometimes this separates the craftsmen from the others. If I came upon a rusty connection at the the GEC/Electrode, I would not ignore it because the inspector did not make me address it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Yes you would...and you know it. What he is asking is not unnecessary. Why would you leave a job knowing that a service possibly may not be properly grounded?


Goddammit Cletis, crack a Code book sometime.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> That is true but what a person has to think about is what is important in regards to an electrical service. Sometimes this separates the craftsmen from the others. If I came upon a rusty connection at the the GEC/Electrode, I would not ignore it because the inspector did not make me address it.


I would love to see your resume


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> I would love to see your resume


Trust me...It's pretty good.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Trust me...It's pretty good.


You must have bull****ted and fluffed it pretty good because you don't have the damn slightest idea wtf your talking about


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> You must have bull****ted and fluffed it pretty good because you don't have the damn slightest idea wtf your talking about


You're young...aren't you?


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## SPINA ELECTRIC (Dec 1, 2009)

That is why I asked the inspector and he gave me the answer I wanted to hear because once I put my name on it it better be right.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

SPINA ELECTRIC said:


> That is why I asked the inspector and he gave me the answer I wanted to hear because once I put my name on it it better be right.


When you feel that way it is a sign of a craftsman who is proud of his work. It seems as if a lot of people consider being an electrician as just,"A JOB", rather a career.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> You're young...aren't you?


That has about as much relevance as driving two rods in an already compliant install.

Seriously, why do you think the rods are necessary when there is already a far superior Ufer?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> There is a water ground and an ufer ground.
> 
> Wow not only do you not understand basic electrical code you can't even read.


I did not look at the # 5 post. You are right.My bad. A properly installed...and a properly connected ufer ground is the best way to go on a residence. I hate to be wrong.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

You guys should be able to disagree without insults.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



kaboler said:


> You guys should be able to disagree without insults.


I don't think that's possible...


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*...*

So the FIRST STEP in learning a healthy response to feelings of hurt and insult is simply to acknowledge that you feel hurt.

For example, when you get angry you don’t really allow yourself to feel your inner vulnerability and hurt. All you can think about in the moment is your *desire to get revenge*, to *defend your pride*, to do something—anything—to create the feeling that you have power and importance. In essence, your outbursts of rage paradoxically *hide your inner feelings of vulnerability,* so you never recognize the hurt you’re feeling that triggers your hostile reaction. All the bitterness and hostility is a big puff of smoke, an emotional fraud. It hardens your heart toward others so that you can seal off your own emotional pain.

---------------------------------------

So the SECOND STEP in learning a healthy response to feelings of hurt and insult is to follow the hurt back into its roots in the past to all those times and circumstances when you felt the same way

This entire process is a bit like what happens when an insect stings you and you feel a pain way out of proportion to the size of the stinger. First you simply recognize that it hurts. Then you have to explore the wound to find the stinger. The stinger represents the insult that hurts you, digging out the stinger represents the psychological task of realizing how *this one insult pierces deep into your self-esteem*, and the *venom* which *spreads into the surrounding tissues represents the way unconscious resentment about all sorts of old emotional injuries from the past continues to poison you even in the present.*

------------------------------

Therefore, the THIRD STEP in learning a healthy response to feelings of hurt and insult is to avoid the popular response to feelings of hurt and insult.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> why do you suppose that the inspector wanted it in the first place?


Because he was feeling particularly bored and d1ckish that day. 


I woulda sent a fax worded like this back. "no"


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Because he was feeling particularly bored and d1ckish that day.
> 
> 
> I woulda sent a fax worded like this back. "no"


I suppose they are out there but the bottom line is that if a service is not properly grounded for whatever reason...forgotten in the past...no one cared...or whatever, the inspector has the right and the responsibility to see that it is done correctly now.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> the bottom line is...


That ground rods are completely worthless.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> I replaced a panel . It was a 100 amp 12 circuit panel so I pulled it out and replaced it with a 20 circuit panel. Didn't do anything to the service.
> 
> There were no ground rods,now the inspector wants me to install 2 ground rods???????
> 
> ...


I'm confused!:001_huh:
How/why would an inspector be bringing up something from 5 years ago? Did he have to go inspect some recent work done there?
If not, how would he know if something was done or not. Very confusing, or I'm missing something in your post.:blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I suppose they are out there but the bottom line is that if a service is not properly grounded for whatever reason...forgotten in the past...no one cared...or whatever,


But the fact is the service was properly grounded and additional rods where not required.



> the inspector has the right and the responsibility to see that it is done correctly now.


That really depends on local rules, enforcement is not controlled by the NEC or the NFPA.

In my area the electrical contractor is not required to correct existing code violations, where an actual hazard exists the inspector must notify the property owner.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> piece of cake.


I've heard that before. :laughing:


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

19kilosparky984 said:


> DCA's office


What is DCA? Department of Consumer Affairs?


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> Well, it has water ground, it has a Ufer, and it has a CO, tell him GFY.



What is a CO???


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

swimmer said:


> What is a CO???


I am betting he means a 'Certificate of Occupancy'


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Certificate+of+Occupancy


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> But the fact is the service was properly grounded and additional rods where not required.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't Riveter just drive rivets into cars on an assembly line?

He had on his profile he belonged to the UAW

He isn't an electrician so why is he trying to tell electricians what to do or how to run their businesses?

Why is he even allowed to be a member here? 

Electricity is just his hobby so doesn't that make him a DIY'er ?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Doesn't Riveter just drive rivets into cars on an assembly line?
> 
> He had on his profile he belonged to the UAW
> 
> ...


 
Unless I've been deceived, Riveter is an electrician for FORD. He just knows nothing about contracting or running a business.


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Unless I've been deceived, Riveter is an electrician for FORD. He just knows nothing about contracting or running a business.


Well I hope he practices what he preaches!!!

Those POS ford chassis better be grounded damn you!!!!!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> That ground rods are completely worthless.


 I can't believe you'd pass on a dangerous lie like that. :furious:

Ground rods are worth $10 at a scrap yard, easy. 

:whistling2:

-John


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

BBQ said:


> ^^^^^^^^This is correct ^^^^^^^^^^^​


 Just for ships and giggles im gonna try this on the 400 amp service im doing... There is a ufer installed in the foundation, but i will bet you guys that the inspector makes me put them in... It will be a fun experiment...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

captkirk said:


> Just for ships and giggles im gonna try this on the 400 amp service im doing... There is a ufer installed in the foundation, but i will bet you guys that the inspector makes me put them in... It will be a fun experiment...


How can he make you? Is there a local amendment specifying that ground rods must be used no matter what?


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> How can he make you? Is there a local amendment specifying that ground rods must be used no matter what?


No there is not.

I don't think he understands the purpose of that ground.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> I'm confused!:001_huh:
> How/why would an inspector be bringing up something from 5 years ago? Did he have to go inspect some recent work done there?
> If not, how would he know if something was done or not. Very confusing, or I'm missing something in your post.:blink:


Fine, just skip right over my question and leave me confused!:jester:


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

Little-Lectric said:


> Fine, just skip right over my question and leave me confused!:jester:


I have no idea.

My guess is he never closed the permit out. It's been real slow for some towns here permit wise.

He was probably digging thru old files trying to look busy. There are rumors of lay offs


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

19kilosparky984 said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> My guess is he never closed the permit out. It's been real slow for some towns here permit wise.
> 
> He was probably digging thru old files trying to look busy. There are rumors of lay offs


Thanks, I just never heard of anything like that.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I can't believe you'd pass on a dangerous lie like that. :furious:
> 
> Ground rods are worth $10 at a scrap yard, easy.
> 
> :whistling2:


:thumbup::laughing:


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