# Cutler Hammer BR burned



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

It isn't unique to BR panels I assure you.

I see this where a heavy load is connected to a breaker that shares bus tabs with another larger breaker. The heat build up is probably the culprit. A breaker larger than 40 amps should probably be alone on the tabs, no breaker across from it. This would help keep it cool.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Improper torque is most likely the causation of that . And,,,,,,,, usually the printed proper torque the engineer's decide on is the improper level. Usually dangerously loose if following the printed specs...


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## bartstop (Sep 30, 2012)

Personally, I think it's a design flaw. Have you ever seen a QO burn like that? I haven't.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bartstop said:


> Personally, I think it's a design flaw. Have you ever seen a QO burn like that? I haven't.


I've seen QOs burn but, it's rare.
I has a bit of a cronic problem like that.
As an experiment, I installed a 70 amp breaker. It looks like it shares the same frame and guts as a 100 amp. I haven't had that burning problem on that site again.
Btw, it was a tankless water heater installation.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> It isn't unique to BR panels I assure you.
> 
> I see this where a heavy load is connected to a breaker that shares bus tabs with another larger breaker. The heat build up is probably the culprit. A breaker larger than 40 amps should probably be alone on the tabs, no breaker across from it. This would help keep it cool.


I can see putting an air handler breaker and heat pump breaker above / below each other but never on the same tabs. 

To me that is just poor workmanship of an inexperienced installer..


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Improper torque is most likely the causation of that . And,,,,,,,, usually the printed proper torque the engineer's decide on is the improper level. Usually dangerously loose if following the printed specs...


Improper torque had nothing to do with that. If anything it was a faulty breaker.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

bartstop said:


> Personally, I think it's a design flaw. Have you ever seen a QO burn like that? I haven't.


I have seen more QO's burnt than any other brand by far. That is usually because they pop off the buss easier than I can pop open a beer.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I haven't seen any QO burnouts but I did have a run of duds that didn't work at all.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

It's an aluminum bussed panel, I see this regularly in aluminum bussed panels....just had a call two weekends ago for the same thing but it was a dryer breaker in an aluminum bussed Siemens panel.

Twins and quads to move the breakers off the bad stab is the usual fix. If it's really bad or they are out of space...panel change!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> Improper torque had nothing to do with that. If anything it was a faulty breaker.


Mac loves sarcasm. :laughing:


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## John M. (Oct 29, 2016)

Another BR typical. Get a panel with a copper bus. QO is one of the best. I think BR offers one too.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cow said:


> It's an aluminum bussed panel, I see this regularly in aluminum bussed panels....just had a call two weekends ago for the same thing but it was a dryer breaker in an aluminum bussed Siemens panel.
> 
> Twins and quads to move the breakers off the bad stab is the usual fix. If it's really bad or they are out of space...panel change!


Some guys don't think copper buss panels are better.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Some guys don't think copper buss panels are better.


Hackwork disagrees with me everytime I say the same thing....

I've seen probably no less than 15 aluminum bussed panels with burned stabs, but only one copper bussed panel so far. 

Is it because the ratio of aluminum to copper bussed panels in this area is 15-1? Or are aluminum bussed panels just turds?? I'm leaning towards they are turds....


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cow said:


> Hackwork disagrees with me everytime I say the same thing....
> 
> I've seen probably no less than 15 aluminum bussed panels with burned stabs, but only one copper bussed panel so far.
> 
> Is it because the ratio of aluminum to copper bussed panels in this area is 15-1? Or are aluminum bussed panels just turds?? I'm leaning towards they are turds....


I've NEVER seen a residential panel that was copper. 

15-1 would seem LOW.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cow said:


> Hackwork disagrees with me everytime I say the same thing....
> 
> I've seen probably no less than 15 aluminum bussed panels with burned stabs, but only one copper bussed panel so far.
> 
> Is it because the ratio of aluminum to copper bussed panels in this area is 15-1? Or are aluminum bussed panels just turds?? I'm leaning towards they are turds....


I lean towards the latter myself. I like copper over aluminum for any purpose.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> I've NEVER seen a residential panel that was copper.
> 
> 15-1 would seem LOW.


So you have never seen a QO, Siemens or even a FPE? Pushmatics were copper. Pretty sure Almost every single resi panel around here is. 
Did your internet search not quite work that well?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

telsa said:


> I've NEVER seen a residential panel that was copper.
> 
> 15-1 would seem LOW.


I used to see them all the time around here , but just recently I
had a customer specifically request I do not use aluminum buss
panel , so it then became obvious to me that the single phase
residential breaker panels (with copper busses) are getting
more challenging to find.

I chose square D QO because it proclaimed "copper buss"...
When I got to the job and opened up the box , removed the
door ...it looks like an aluminum buss...it's not copper colored...
it says copper but it appears to be aluminum. What the heck?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I used to see them all the time around here , but just recently I
> had a customer specifically request I do not use aluminum buss
> panel , so it then became obvious to me that the single phase
> residential breaker panels (with copper busses) are getting
> ...



I made the same mistake before. The buss is tinned copper. (coating). Scratch the bus with a sharp edge and the copper is down there below the shiny parts.... Most all the so called ''aluminum buss bars'' you hear about in this thread are really copper busbars tinned.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Siemens PL series is copper buss


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I used to see them all the time around here , but just recently I
> had a customer specifically request I do not use aluminum buss
> panel , so it then became obvious to me that the single phase
> residential breaker panels (with copper busses) are getting
> ...


It's been 'tinned' that is very common, they do that to reduce corrosion and increase conductivity.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

*Plated Buss Bars*

Why Are Copper BusBars Plated?
Posted on May 20, 2012
Even though copper is the most popular choice for use in busbars, and used very often in other electrical applications because it is more resistant to rust and corrosion than other metals, this doesn’t mean that it won’t oxidize over time.

When metals oxidize, the resistance in the conductive metal will increase, requiring more power to be used to carry current along the surface. When the copper oxidizes beyond a certain point, the metal can begin to flake and fall apart.

Many metals are plated in order to help them retain their positive qualities and attributes. When it comes to copper bus bars, plating is an important factor in longevity as well as maintaining the integrity of the conductive surface. When copper bus bars are not plated, over time the surface will oxidise. When that occurs, then more power is required to push electricity along the surface because the oxidised surface simply doesn’t conduct as well as a smooth, plated surface.

Plating, using tin or silver acts as a coating over the surface of the copper, helps to protect the copper from oxidising. While this will not completely prevent oxidising over a long period of time, it will dramatically reduce the effects of such oxidisation. The reason why tin and silver is commonly used in the plating technique for copper is that both metals are considered soft metals, easier to work with when plating, and more importantly they don’t offer a great deal of resistance to electrical conductivity.

Which is better? Tin or Silver?

Throughout the industry there are different thoughts about which metal is better for plating copper, tin or silver. 10 microns of tin will out perform 1 micron of silver. With the price of silver climbing, tin becomes more economical, even though ten times the amount of tin will be required to do the same job.

When using silver to plate copper bus bars, a minimum of 3 microns should be used, and preferable 6 microns. On top of that, an anti-tarnish would need to be applied as well to protect the finish. In most fixed bus bar applications, tin is recommended. Silver should be used for moving bus bar parts in which arcing may be a concern.

For both tin and silver plating, anti-tarnish is important to keep the surface clean and conductive. When working with copper bus bars, plating is essential not only for longevity, but also integrity and safety.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> I made the same mistake before. The buss is tinned copper. (coating). Scratch the bus with a sharp edge and the copper is down there below the shiny parts....* Most all the so called ''aluminum buss bars'' you hear about in this thread are really copper busbars tinned*.


Other than the comment by Lighterup about QO's, the aluminum bussed panels being mentioned in this thread ARE actually aluminum. Take a look at the first pic in this thread, BR panels are aluminum. Cutler Hammers copper loadcenters are their CH line.

Siemens panels are available in aluminum and copper bussed. On their loadcenters with copper buss, they are not coated with anything as far as I know, so they are very obviously copper, and NOT aluminum.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

drspec said:


> Siemens PL series is copper buss


And the layout is good. It is all we use.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't use them, but GE load centers are copper tinned buss also.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree about this with the BR series being all aluminum. The top lugs break off really easy on BR load centers if you are not careful. 

I think BR stands for barf repeatedly maybe


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I agree about this with the BR series being all aluminum. The top lugs break off really easy on BR load centers if you are not careful.
> 
> I think BR stands for barf repeatedly maybe


Or 'break readily'!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I agree about this with the BR series being all aluminum. The top lugs break off really easy on BR load centers if you are not careful.
> 
> I think BR stands for barf repeatedly maybe


You should use the proper torque wrench.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I use the cheaper Siemens panel's. The aluminum bus works just as good as the copper one and the KO's are much easier to pop out.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I use the cheaper Siemens panel's. The aluminum bus works just as good as the copper one and the KO's are much easier to pop out.


I use the copper but I just run them all thru a 2" chase nipple so the KO's don't really matter.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I use the copper but I just run them all thru a 2" chase nipple so the KO's don't really matter.


Even the breaker KO's on ES series panels are much easier to remove. I remove them by hand while I need to use linemens on the PL series.

The only benefit of the PL series is that it comes with ground bars (usually 2), but that's not worth the extra cost.

Oh, and not you don't "run them all thru a 2" chase nipple" so the joke's on you.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Even the breaker KO's on ES series panels are much easier to remove. I remove them by hand while I need to use linemens on the PL series.
> 
> The only benefit of the PL series is that it comes with ground bars (usually 2), but that's not worth the extra cost.
> 
> Oh, and not you don't "run them all thru a 2" chase nipple" so the joke's on you.


I use both aluminum and copper Siemens panels and I really doubt they manufacture different covers and panels for them. The only difference in the panels in the buss and the PL comes with the extra bar.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> I use both aluminum and copper Siemens panels and I really doubt they manufacture different covers and panels for them. The only difference in the panels in the buss and the PL comes with the extra bar.


Remember when we used to be friends? Chat for hours every day? And now you are here calling me a fool in front of everyone 

PL series come with a thicker basepan as well as a thicker cover that is packaged separately inside the box. The ES series uses thinner gauge basepan and cover from the Murray line of panels.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Remember when we used to be friends? Chat for hours every day? And now you are here calling me a fool in front of everyone
> 
> PL series come with a thicker basepan as well as a thicker cover that is packaged separately inside the box. The ES series uses thinner gauge basepan and cover from the Murray line of panels.


Im not calling you a fool, nor was that my intention.

You may be right but Ive been using Siemens for years and have never noticed any difference. Not saying there is or isnt, just Ive never paid that close attention. Their kos have always been a pita to remove, even before they introduced the PL series. It just doesnt seem to make any financial sense to manufacture a different tub or cover to me.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Why Are Copper BusBars Plated?
> Posted on May 20, 2012
> Even though copper is the most popular choice for use in busbars, and used very often in other electrical applications because it is more resistant to rust and corrosion than other metals, this doesn’t mean that it won’t oxidize over time.
> 
> ...


I've only ever seen TIN plated bus bars.

I HAVE seen silver plated grounding conductors. ( military spec, second hand )

When silver plated, it's wickedly thin.

BTW, these are high power bus bars -- NOT residential whatsoever.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You and Jackwad are really going after my ball lately. But you'll miss me when I'm gone 

Anyway, as I mentioned, it's the Murray tub. It's really a night and day difference. You have to hammer the PL KO's while you can pretty much tap the ES's gently down and then bend them the rest of the way with your finger. 

Now that I mentioned it, I bet you'll pay more attention next time and notice it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> I've only ever seen TIN plated bus bars.
> 
> I HAVE seen silver plated grounding conductors. ( military spec, second hand )
> 
> ...


I've seen some European panels that were military spec for communications complexes with gold plated buss. 

Sometimes I wish I was still doing those type jobs.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've seen some European panels that were military spec for communications complexes with gold plated buss.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I was still doing those type jobs.


What is with the font size on your posts?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I was looking at some solar ready panels from Cutler-Hammer yesterday. There CH Panels have a "Silver flash plated copper bus". 

Not exactly sure what that entails.... But I Googled it and it led me to an engineering forum..... where Jraef posted a bunch of stuff on it.... LOL...

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=172950


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switched said:


> What is with the font size on your posts?


Easier for us old bastards to read.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You and Jackwad are really going after my ball lately. But you'll miss me when I'm gone
> 
> Anyway, as I mentioned, it's the Murray tub. It's really a night and day difference. You have to hammer the PL KO's while you can pretty much tap the ES's gently down and then bend them the rest of the way with your finger.
> 
> Now that I mentioned it, I bet you'll pay more attention next time and notice it.


What is ES? i don't think I'm familiar with this and am trying to follow the
conversation.


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

For many years the cutler hammer C-H panels had cadmium plated buss bar. These were bullet proof. Time will tell how silver will pan out. In my lifetime in this trade most panels went into dairy barns quite common till a few year ago. they had various levels of dampness in them one thing for sure al. buss was very bad in them. ITE bryant sylvania muray homeline BR GE all bad in a damp location.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

lighterup said:


> What is ES? i don't think I'm familiar with this and am trying to follow the
> conversation.


Siemens makes 2 lines of resi panels, ES and PL.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Easier for us old bastards to read.


It's tiny and very hard to read, and I have perfect vision.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's tiny and very hard to read, and I have perfect vision.


*Is this any better?*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *Is this any better?*


No, the normal font is just fine.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No, the normal font is just fine.


Smartass!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Galt said:


> For many years the cutler hammer C-H panels had cadmium plated buss bar. These were bullet proof. Time will tell how silver will pan out. In my lifetime in this trade most panels went into dairy barns quite common till a few year ago. they had various levels of dampness in them one thing for sure al. buss was very bad in them. ITE bryant sylvania muray homeline BR GE all bad in a damp location.


I would think silver would be great conductor ..low valance electrons 
means quicker pace of conductivity ...it certainly should be better than 
AL.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

lighterup said:


> I would think silver would be great conductor ..low valance electrons
> means quicker pace of conductivity ...it certainly should be better than
> AL.


I read that you need much less silver than tin on the copper, but even the thicker plating of tin is cheaper for the same level of performance. However where arcing is a concern, moving parts etc. - silver is better. 

https://www.finishing.com/280/03.shtml


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## JBrzoz00 (Nov 17, 2013)

Thanks for all the info fellas!!!


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

JBrzoz00 said:


> Thanks for all the info fellas!!!


Learned a lot reading this one. We install a lot of those BR type Homeline panels. They are pretty flimsy in general, and I have found that you have to be careful when doing anything from punching out a KO to tightening the lugs. I can totally see these burning up a lot.

Also thanks for the tip on spacing out your double pole loads in order to help with heat distribution. That is something I have never thought about, being all OCD I always went for "symmetry"


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

bartstop said:


> Personally, I think it's a design flaw. Have you ever seen a QO burn like that? I haven't.


Yes, five so far.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> Yes, five so far.


Five, in what kind of time frame?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Every brand of snap-in breaker panel that I've ever seen has been prone to meltdown. Some more than others, true, but just the nature of the spring-pressure connection means that it is possible.

I think GE and Murray are by far the most likely to do it, in my experience. FPE and Zinsco don't count for this discussion.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Five, in what kind of time frame?


The last 4 or 5 years I have seen 1970's QO panels burn up from failed busses. It always been centered on the water heater's breakers(2 pole 30 amp). Sorry about the sideways picture.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

backstay said:


> The last 4 or 5 years I have seen 1970's QO panels burn up from failed busses. It always been centered on the water heater's breakers(2 pole 30 amp). Sorry about the sideways picture.


The picture isn't sideways, you're just close to Canada.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> The picture isn't sideways, you're just close to Canada.


Too close, sometimes! May even cross the line, but don't tell the OPP! :whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> Yes, five so far.


That is so common with QO it is scary.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Dumb question but would you ever consider a bolt in panel in residential?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> The last 4 or 5 years I have seen 1970's QO panels burn up from failed busses. It always been centered on the water heater's breakers(2 pole 30 amp). Sorry about the sideways picture.


Oh okay, I was thinking like in less time than that. Once a panel hits 40 years old I think it's time to replace it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bird dog said:


> Dumb question but would you ever consider a bolt in panel in residential?


Those bolt-in AFCIs are mighty expensive...


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Oh okay, I was thinking like in less time than that. Once a panel hits 40 years old I think it's time to replace it.


I suggested that, and gave them a great deal of $800 per panel with conditions. But they have 59 houses(54 now) and didn't have it in the budget. My conditions where that I have 3 houses avalible everyday for 18 days straight. Then they all get done in the time period. I get a break on pricing from my SH and the truck is setup to do only this work. Fast and efficient, I can change one in 3-1/2 hours now. I think I can get it down to just over two. For now I'm doing it for just under a grand, depending on how much damage there is.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> I suggested that, and gave them a great deal of $800 per panel with conditions. But they have 59 houses(54 now) and didn't have it in the budget. My conditions where that I have 3 houses avalible everyday for 18 days straight. Then they all get done in the time period. I get a break on pricing from my SH and the truck is setup to do only this work. Fast and efficient, I can change one in 3-1/2 hours now. I think I can get it down to just over two. For now I'm doing it for just under a grand, depending on how much damage there is.



In the job markets I come from that is a great price.:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MechanicalDVR said:


> In the job markets I come from that is a great price.:thumbsup:


This is the same guy that mixed up and poured 56 bags of concrete. He likes the punishment.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> This is the same guy that mixed up and poured 56 bags of concrete. He likes the punishment.


If he has one customer with close to 60 houses he is doing something right!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If he has one customer with close to 60 houses he is doing something right!



If you are wiring 60 houses for one customer, you are doing something wrong. It "the something" is called wiring houses for a developer, notorious for screwing the subs at the end quarter of the project, and beating them down on price at the start to the end that they have to hire illegals and pay them 5 bucks an hour to miswire the project.....


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> If you are wiring 60 houses for one customer, you are doing something wrong. It "the something" is called wiring houses for a developer, notorious for screwing the subs at the end quarter of the project, and beating them down on price at the start to the end that they have to hire illegals and pay them 5 bucks an hour to miswire the project.....


Didn't take them as new work, I took it as service customers.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Didn't take them as new work, I took it as service customers.


I just fix them. They called today with two more problems, old houses with worn out receptacles and switches. Lots of work, always pay timely and never complain.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

backstay said:


> I just fix them. They called today with two more problems, old houses with worn out receptacles and switches. Lots of work, always pay timely and never complain.


Yeah that is how I took them from your post.:thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RePhase277 said:


> This is the same guy that mixed up and poured 56 bags of concrete. He likes the punishment.


Not much else I could do there. Truck wouldn't have made it into my site. Besides, I was just eluding to the false idea that solar is somehow the glamour side of electrical. At 58, just the fact I can still hump the bags and shovel that much is mud is a good thing. Not to mention working 16 hours a day. I would usually take two days, but rain was not my friend this week.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Dumb question but would you ever consider a bolt in panel in residential?


I have done it a few times. Normally on a 400 ampere service with electric heat. The one we are doing right now is a 600 I line with 5-200 amp panel boards. The guy is a controls electrician and wants no corners cut. Ordered the gear as a job and it really wasn't all that much more than hacking in a bunch of POS panels. 
The AFCI breakers were not all that bad when ordered as a job they had to quote, but they definitely stick in you ass on a replacement. 
For the extra $200 I would do it in my house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Siemens makes 2 lines of resi panels, ES and PL.


Technically 3 if you include Murray. Siemens is not common here but Murray is.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer/Eaton BR = Zinsco II, on top of it some of the Westinghouse branded BR panels used a Zinsco main, somebody has to be on the bottom, & the BR line is it.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

bartstop said:


> Personally, I think it's a design flaw. Have you ever seen a QO burn like that? I haven't.


Just swapped two because of it.


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## DesignerMan (Jun 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Remember when we used to be friends? Chat for hours every day? And now you are here calling me a fool in front of everyone


This why I love this forum...very entertaining! :thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

DesignerMan said:


> This why I love this forum...very entertaining! :thumbsup:


I'm glad that my broken heart can entertain you guys


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

From my personal experience, BR stands for "Bandaids Required"


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