# Canada Guys



## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

I am watching mike holmes show (not sure why) and his electrician says he has to install an new panel because after he adds circuits to the existing panel there would only be one spare. Is this typical holmes overkill or is this a real code that you always have to have two spares


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I saw that too.
Can you imagine that rule here.
There was a thread about that several weeks ago.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

If you install a new panel it needs to have at least two spots for future, meaning you can't size the panel exactly to what you have without leaving room. If you're doing a reno and use the last couple spots you don't need to replace the panel. 

The rule in the CEC is 8-102(2). For him to say he has to replace the panel is just him drumming up more work for himself and again, making sure Mike Holmes always looks like an idiot.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

SteveO. said:


> If you install a new panel it needs to have at least two spots for future, meaning you can't size the panel exactly to what you have without leaving room. If you're doing a reno and use the last couple spots you don't need to replace the panel.
> 
> The rule in the CEC is 8-102(2). For him to say he has to replace the panel is just him drumming up more work for himself and again, making sure Mike Holmes always looks like an idiot.


 
I asked this in the other thread and didn't get an answer. What about a 30/40 that is full but no tandems installed?


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I asked this in the other thread and didn't get an answer. What about a 30/40 that is full but no tandems installed?


In a house, with a 100A panel you need at least 28 spots, half of which need to be able to hold tandems. If you don't use any because of gas range and dryer, the spots are still there, even if they're occupied with single pole breakers. You do still need the two extra spots left for future OC's though.

Did that answer your question? I may be misreading it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

SteveO. said:


> In a house, with a 100A panel you need at least 28 spots, half of which need to be able to hold tandems. If you don't use any because of gas range and dryer, the spots are still there, even if they're occupied with single pole breakers. You do still need the two extra spots left for future OC's though.
> 
> Did that answer your question? I may be misreading it.


 
Yeah, that answers it. Kinda silly if you think about it. I could have a 30/40 full but no tandems installed, and that would be illegal there, even though technially it's still capable of holding 10 more circuits.

But you could install a 30/40, put 38 circuits in 28 slots and be legal. That seems silly.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yeah, that answers it. Kinda silly if you think about it. I could have a 30/40 full but no tandems installed, and that would be illegal there, even though technially it's still capable of holding 10 more circuits.
> 
> But you could install a 30/40, put 38 circuits in 28 slots and be legal. That seems silly.


All our panels are 24/48, 30/60, etc. when you use the space savers. Not sure what you mean by a 30/40?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

SteveO. said:


> All our panels are 24/48, 30/60, etc. when you use the space savers. Not sure what you mean by a 30/40?


 
30 /40 is a popular panel here that is 30 slots but allowed 40 circuits with tandems.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> 30 /40 is a popular panel here that is 30 slots but allowed 40 circuits with tandems.


Whats stopping you from using 30 tandems for 60 circuits?


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

randas said:


> Whats stopping you from using 30 tandems for 60 circuits?


That's what I was wondering as well. :001_huh:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

randas said:


> Whats stopping you from using 30 tandems for 60 circuits?


Most of the states still useing the 42 circuit limitation but I know few states are allready removing the 42 circuit limit only if they stated in their codes { it can be either state or local level }

And it don't matter if full sized or tandems breakers.


Merci,
Marc


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

SteveO. said:


> That's what I was wondering as well. :001_huh:


The tamdems wont physically fit into any spot in the panel. Like in the siemens 30/40, the bottom 5 rows of buss will have a notch in the middle, and the tamdem breakers are designed to only fit into the notch. Sq d qo line has a little finger oposite the buss side of the breaker that needs to fit down into a notched out area.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Had a 30/60 cct panel recently inspected had no tandem breakers with me, had 30 ccts in the house, didnt meet the requirment for 2 spaces for future even know the panel could technically hold 30 more ccts... Didnt argue to easy to pop a few tandems in to free the room... Seems stupid in this case.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

I've noticed that they claim a need to replace the panel on every episode regardless of the circumstances, often using what seems to me to be specious reasoning.

It makes electrical contractors look unscrupulous IMO. The plumber on that show usually just fixes a few things here and there, only occasionally doing a larger job when the situation obviously warrants it.

It was a good show until it became popular.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

Stan B. said:


> I've noticed that they claim a need to replace the panel on every episode regardless of the circumstances, often using what seems to me to be specious reasoning.
> 
> It makes electrical contractors look unscrupulous IMO. The plumber on that show usually just fixes a few things here and there, only occasionally doing a larger job when the situation obviously warrants it.
> 
> It was a good show until it became popular.


okay, but do you guys out east _really_ install your panels sideways like that?


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

stuiec said:


> okay, but do you guys out east _really_ install your panels sideways like that?


Negative, ghost rider. It's just....not illegal. I don't know why anyone would given the choice.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

stuiec said:


> okay, but do you guys out east _really_ install your panels sideways like that?


I have run into my share of sideways panels around Toronto and even installed one once. Usually I find them in houses built in the 70s and 80s. Lots of Westinghouse, Commander and sometimes Federal Pioneer panels seem to have been put up this way. 

Honestly I don't mind them and I also think it makes sense in a lot of cases. I don't know why everyone here hates them. The one time that I had to install one sideways was to get a perfect back-to-back with the meter can on the other side of a wall in a parking garage.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

Nothing wrong with sideways panels in residential. I've seen my share probably worked on 3 or 4 of them. Doesn't make a difference to me. I wouldn't install a Fresh panel that way. But I do all commercial and industrial now.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> most of the states still useing the 42 circuit limitation but i know few states are allready removing the 42 circuit limit only if they stated in their codes { it can be either state or local level }
> 
> and it don't matter if full sized or tandems breakers.
> 
> ...


SHAZAM!!!

That's 60.......well not yet but you get the idea.

Btw don't worry about that junk in the bottom it's not even landed in the switchgear yet.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

stuiec said:


> okay, but do you guys out east _really_ install your panels sideways like that?


I don't think that most new installations install them that way, but they are quite common in houses built decades ago, whether it's the original panel (eg. my sisters house built in the early 80s) or an updated one (my mother's built in the 1920s - think about how much easier it is to keep the horizontal orientation during a swap-out).


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