# GFI on AFCI Circuit



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think there is no issue with it as I have done it many times.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think there is no issue with it as I have done it many times.


Then, since you have done this before you have answered your own question

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Then, since you have done this before you have answered your own question
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I had no question. The op said what do we think-- I said I think....


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

nyr114 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> On a new residential house wiring job I have an outside outlet on one of my AFCI circuits (dining room). Just curious as to what you think about putting a GFI (for the outside receptacle) on an Arc Fault circuit.


I didn't think the NEC allows an outside receptacle (outlet?) on a small appliance circuit.


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## nyr114 (Feb 14, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> I didn't think the NEC allows an outside receptacle (outlet?) on a small appliance circuit.


 I should have been more clear on my post then. I wasnt talking about a special circuit for a pool or anything of the sort. I was referring to an outlet mounted on the house with a waterproof cover and it must be a Ground Fault Receptacle.I need it within a certain distance of the AC unit by code. I went from an outlet in the dining room to the receptacle outside and back in to another receptacle in the dining room. 

I have been doing that for 40 years but this Arc Fault code has made me change my wiring methods slightly.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> I didn't think the NEC allows an outside receptacle (outlet?) on a small appliance circuit.


He's right. Article 210.52 (B)

*(B) Small Appliances.*
*
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served.* In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles
specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a
general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1),
Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

*(2) No Other Outlets.* The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets.

Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical
supply to and support of an electric clock in any of
the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power
for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired
ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

*(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements.* Receptacles installed
in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
either or both of which shall also be permitted to
supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other
rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional smallappliance
branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle
outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in
210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve
more than one kitchen.

So it looks like you have to go elsewhere for your outdoor receptacles, not off the dining room circuits or anything listed above.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

nyr114 said:


> I should have been more clear on my post then. I wasnt talking about a special circuit for a pool or anything of the sort. I was referring to an outlet mounted on the house with a waterproof cover and it must be a Ground Fault Receptacle.I need it within a certain distance of the AC unit by code. I went from an outlet in the dining room to the receptacle outside and back in to another receptacle in the dining room.
> 
> I have been doing that for 40 years but this Arc Fault code has made me change my wiring methods slightly.


Here is the list for AFCI protection..
*



 
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the

Click to expand...






branch circuit
​​​​​

Click to expand...



Here is the list for GFCI protection.
​*​​​​*



 
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a

Click to expand...

*​*




readily accessible location.

Informational Note: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuitinterrupter
protection for personnel on feeders.​​​​ 
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-
ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
210.8(A)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuitinterrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors
 
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to
electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating
equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance
with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
 
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
 
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
 
Informational Note: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power
supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
 
Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where
receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have
ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors
 
Exception No. 1 to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not
readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit
dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and
vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be installed
in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
Exception No. 2 to (4): In industrial establishments only,
where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure
that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured
equipment grounding conductor program as specified in
590.6(B)(2) shall be permitted for only those receptacle
outlets used to supply equipment that would create a
greater hazard if power is interrupted or having a design
that is not compatible with GFCI protection.
 
(5) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m
(6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.
 
Exception No. 1 to (5): In industrial laboratories, receptacles
used to supply equipment where removal of power
would introduce a greater hazard shall be permitted to be
installed without GFCI protection.
Exception No. 2 to (5): For receptacles located in patient
bed locations of general care or critical care areas of
health care facilities other than those covered under
210.8(B)(1), GFCI protection shall not be required.
 
(6) Indoor wet locations
(7) Locker rooms with associated showering facilities
(8) Garages, service bays, and similar areas where electrical
diagnostic equipment, electrical hand tools, or portable
lighting equipment are to be used
 
(C) Boat Hoists. GFCI protection shall be provided for
outlets not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed​
in dwelling unit locations.
​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Click to expand...

​*


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> He's right. Article 210.52 (B)
> 
> *(B) Small Appliances.*
> 
> ...


You beat me..:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

No arc fault needed outside, but can't feed outside off dinning room.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Here is the list for AFCI protection..
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Harry, he's asking if he's able to install a GFCI receptacle on an AFCI circuit which happens to be his dining room. 

However from the looks of 210.52 (B) 1 & 2, the Dining room or any other circuit to be considered a SABC can't serve the outside receptacles required by 210.52 (E) 1.

And I didn't beat you, I didn't even cite the same artice. :whistling2:










:hammer:













:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Harry, he's asking if he's able to install a GFCI receptacle on an AFCI circuit which happens to be his dining room.
> 
> However from the looks of 210.52 (B) 1 & 2, the Dining room or any other circuit to be considered a SABC can't serve the outside receptacles required by 210.52 (E) 1.
> 
> ...


Yes i can see that,,,I agree..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> No arc fault needed outside, but can't feed outside off dinning room.


Where does it say that in 210.12 in the 2011 NEC..:blink:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say that in 210.12 in the 2011 NEC..:blink:


Harry look up to post #12.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say that in 210.12 in the 2011 NEC..:blink:


No where do I see an arcfault required outside. I also don't see utility room, bath room, laundry room or garage. I will add kitchen too.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Harry look up to post #12.


Yes i see that but the outside receptacle still needs AFCI protection..


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes i see that but the outside receptacle still needs AFCI protection..


Sorry, don't think so!


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes i see that but the outside receptacle still needs AFCI protection..


Not according to 210.12.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes i see that but the outside receptacle still needs AFCI protection..


The last time I checked, "outside" is not a family room, dining room, living room,
parlor, library, den, bedroom, sunroom, recreation room, closet, hallway, or a similar room or area.

Is the outside plug going to be fed from an AFCI circuit anyway? Probably. But it's not required to be.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> The last time I checked, "outside" is not a family room, dining room, living room,
> parlor, library, den, bedroom, sunroom, recreation room, closet, hallway, or a similar room or area.
> 
> Is the outside plug going to be fed from an AFCI circuit anyway? Probably. But it's not required to be.


 Where does it say it is not required..:blink:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say it is not required..:blink:


It doesn't say it's not required. It's just not on the list of places where it is required.

Are you drinking tonight?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say it is not required..:blink:


It doesn't say it is required, therefore it is not required. But if it's AFCI protected, I don't see it as a Code violation because there's nothing saying it can't be done, just not required to be done.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say it is not required..:blink:


Must be happy hour:blink:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Where does it say it is not required..:blink:


Hey Harry, now that's a good question! Is there anything in the code anywhere that written, this so and so is not required!!!???


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Sorry, don't think so!





thegoldenboy said:


> It doesn't say it is required, therefore it is not required. But if it's AFCI protected, I don't see it as a Code violation because there's nothing saying it can't be done, just not required to be done.


*
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units.​*​​​​All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the​
branch circuit.
 

Read it again it does not say In Dwelling Units.​ 


It only says Dwelling Units​



similar rooms or areas .​


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> .​
> 
> Read it again it does not say In Dwelling Units.​
> 
> ...


It does say in dwelling units. And I quote: All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-amp branch circuits suppling outlets installed *in *dwelling unit family rooms...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Hey Harry, now that's a good question! Is there anything in the code anywhere that written, this so and so is not required!!!???


IDK look it up...:laughing:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Hey Harry, now that's a good question! Is there anything in the code anywhere that written, this so and so is not required!!!???


Well yes it does...

*90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and Explanatory
Material.
(A) Mandatory Rules.* Mandatory rules of this Code are
those that identify actions that are specifically required or
prohibited and are characterized by the use of the terms
shall or shall not.
(*B) Permissive Rules.* Permissive rules of this Code are
those that identify actions that are allowed but not required,
are normally used to describe options or alternative methods,
and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be
permitted or shall not be required.
*(C) Explanatory Material.* Explanatory material, such as
references to other standards, references to related sections
of this Code, or information related to a Code rule, is included
in this Code in the form of fine print notes (FPNs).
Fine print notes are informational only and are not enforceable
as requirements of this Code.
Brackets containing section references to another NFPA
document are for informational purposes only and are provided
as a guide to indicate the source of the extracted text.
These bracketed references immediately follow the extracted
text.

Art. 210.12 says that:

(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or *similar rooms or areas* *shall be*
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

All the areas highlighted in blue shall be required to be protected by an AFCI. Outdoors is not a similiar room or area to the list that has been provided. Therefore if it is not on the list, it is not required to have AFCI protection. But 210.12 does not prohibit the AFCI protection of outdoor circuits.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Read it again it does not say In Dwelling Units.​
> It only says Dwelling Units​




:blink: WTF?



> similar rooms or areas .​


210.12 rattles off a list of different rooms commonly present in a typical house. "Outside" is not a similar area to a room in a house.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> It does say in dwelling units. And I quote: All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-amp branch circuits suppling outlets installed *in *dwelling unit family rooms...


Ok so i would put it on AFCI anyhow and the customer will pay..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> :blink: WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 210.12 rattles off a list of different rooms commonly present in a typical house. "Outside" is not a similar area to a room in a house.


Why are you cussing..:laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Maybe you need one of these.







Or a pair of these.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> :blink: WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 210.12 rattles off a list of different rooms commonly present in a typical house. "Outside" is not a similar area to a room in a house.


No an area can be inside or outside..


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Ok so i would put it on AFCI anyhow and the customer will pay..:laughing:


We're still on the 2005 NEC for AFCI stuff in Oregon until about a year from now, so the only way I'd have one on an AFCI at this point in time is if it was being fed from a bedroom circuit.



HARRY304E said:


> Why are you cussing..:laughing:


It means I was confounded :thumbup:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

You know what? Let's all become Rogue Electricians. Abandon the Code


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> Maybe you need one of these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have both thanks...:laughing::laughing:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> No an area can be inside or outside..


Well a house garage could be considered a "similar room or area" but do you AFCI garages?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I have both thanks...:laughing::laughing:


Time to use them!:whistling2:


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> No an area can be inside or outside..


I've never seen a similar room or area to family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, or hallways located outside open to all the elements. 



:devil2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> We're still on the 2005 NEC for AFCI stuff in Oregon until about a year from now, so the only way I'd have one on an AFCI at this point in time is if it was being fed from a bedroom circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> It means I was confounded :thumbup:


 


> We're still on the 2005 NEC for AFCI stuff in Oregon until about a year from now, so the only way I'd have one on an AFCI at this point in time is if it was being fed from a bedroom circuit


You guys need to pick up the pace the 2014 NEC will be here soon..:thumbup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

thegoldenboy said:


> I've never seen a similar room or area to family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
> rooms, closets, or hallways located outside open to all the elements.


Hmm. This roofless living room might be riding the edge in terms of AFCI protection or not :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> I've never seen a similar room or area to family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
> rooms, closets, or hallways located outside open to all the elements.
> 
> 
> ...



That is because you to far west of 495..:laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Well yes it does...
> 
> *90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and Explanatory*
> *Material.*
> ...


Ok and yes I agree, it is written 378 times in the 2011 code. "shall not be required." But not in 210.12!!


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That is because you to far west of 495..:laughing:


Don't make me drive east Harry... :laughing: I've worked in Westboro before, I've been to Boston but I always come home. I even got lost in Raynham once.



Roger123 said:


> Ok and yes I agree, it is written 378 times in the 2011 code. "shall not be required." But not in 210.12!!


Touche. I was merely being a stickler on that one.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> Don't make me drive east Harry... :laughing: I've worked in Westboro before, I've been to Boston but I always come home.
> 
> 
> 
> Touche. I was merely being a stickler on that one.


Cool, just having fun with the code!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Don't make me drive east Harry... :laughing: I've worked in Westboro before, I've been to Boston but I always come home. I even got lost in Raynham once.


Thats because Raynham is in New Hampshire...:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I apologize as I missed the dining room comment. I was responding to gfci and afci working together. They are not the issue but, I agree, the dining room cannot serve the outdoor recep. and the outdoor recp. need not be afci protected. Sometimes it is easier just to feed the outdoor rec from an afci circuit.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Thats because Raynham is in New Hampshire...:thumbup::laughing::laughing:


:wallbash:

No wonder why I got lost.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Cool, just having fun with the code!


How many times does the phrase,,"but in no case shall"
Appeare in the code :laughing: 

*
250.122 Size of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
(A) General.​*​​​​Copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum
equipment grounding conductors of the wire type shall not
be smaller than shown in Table 250.122, but in no case shall
they be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying
the equipment. Where a cable tray, a raceway, or a
cable armor or sheath is used as the equipment grounding
conductor, as provided in 250.118 and 250.134(A), it shall
comply with 250.4(A)(5) or (B)(4).
Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to
be sectioned within a multiconductor cable, provided the​
combined circular mil area complies with Table 250.122.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I apologize as I missed the dining room comment. I was responding to gfci and afci working together. They are not the issue but, I agree, the dining room cannot serve the outdoor recep. and the outdoor recp. need not be afci protected. Sometimes it is easier just to feed the outdoor rec from an afci circuit.


No need to apologize at all Dennis. The focus of the question was about GFCI's on AFCI Circuits, and I agree "they are not an issue."


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> How many times does the phrase,,"but in no case shall"
> Appeare in the code :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...




Stand by, I'm looking
​


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> How many times does the phrase,,"but in no case shall"
> Appeare in the code :laughing:
> 
> *
> ...


I don't know, but I'm eagerly awaiting for you to find out and report back to us. :lol:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> I don't know, but I'm eagerly awaiting for you to find out and report back to us. :lol:


Hold on i'm looking..:blink::laughing::laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> How many times does the phrase,,"but in no case shall"
> Appeare in the code :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...




also in 250.36
​


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

STOP! WAIT! I can do it in my pdf. :laughing:

110.30
210.11 (A)
210.23
220.51
220.56
225.39
230.26
230.200
250.36 (B)
250.122 (A)
300.5 (D)1
300.19 (B)
310.10
314.16
366.30 (B)
378.30 (A)
400.5 (B)
424.40
450.43 (B)
450.45 (C)
T520.44 Note
610.14 (D)
700.21
820.44 (F)1
830.40 (I)2
830.47 (C)

26 times!!!!


I have no life.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> STOP! WAIT! I can do it in my pdf. :laughing:


That's how I did it


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> That's how I did it


I just discovered that I can scroll through them. :laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

thegoldenboy said:


> I just discovered that I can scroll through them. :laughing:


Yes Sir, gota love it!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> STOP! WAIT! I can do it in my pdf. :laughing:
> 
> 110.30
> 210.11 (A)
> ...


Thanks 

Thats right you have no life:whistling2:

Not that i have one...:laughing:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

1.) dinning room rec can supply outdoor rec provided it is not part if the small appliance branch circuit. 
2.) AFCI protection is required but not limited to other area's
3.) so a GFCI rec can be installed with a AFCI required branch circuit.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## cthermond (Feb 10, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 1.) dinning room rec can supply outdoor rec provided it is not part if the small appliance branch circuit.
> 2.) AFCI protection is required but not limited to other area's
> 3.) so a GFCI rec can be installed with a AFCI required branch circuit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Essentially almost all circuits in a single family dwelling either have to have AFCI protection or GFCI protection.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> 1.) dinning room rec can supply outdoor rec provided it is not part if the small appliance branch circuit.
> 2.) AFCI protection is required but not limited to other area's
> 3.) so a GFCI rec can be installed with a AFCI required branch circuit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


You're right on 2 & 3 but wrong on 1. 210.52 (B) explicitly says that the dining room shall be considered one of the two or more required SABC so no, the outdoor receptacles cannot be fed from the dining room at all because no matter how you look at it, it's a SABC.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> You're right on 2 & 3 but wrong on 1. 210.52 (B) explicitly says that the dining room shall be considered one of the two or more required SABC so no, the outdoor receptacles cannot be fed from the dining room at all because no matter how you look at it, it's a SABC.


Know it doesn't! It says it can be fed by the 2 SABC. It doesn't say I can't run a 15 amp branch circuit and feed the outside outlet.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

thegoldenboy said:


> You're right on 2 & 3 but wrong on 1. 210.52 (B) explicitly says that the dining room shall be considered one of the two or more required SABC so no, the outdoor receptacles cannot be fed from the dining room at all because no matter how you look at it, it's a SABC.


Also I quote item 1 in my list. I said provided it is not part of the SABC.

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Let me rephrase: 
If I provide an additional dedicated 20amp circuit or 15 amp circuit for the dinning room only I can use that circuit to feed the outdoor receptacle.

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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Let me rephrase:
> If I provide an additional dedicated 20amp circuit or 15 amp circuit for the dinning room only I can use that circuit to feed the outdoor receptacle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


No, you can't. You're reading it wrong. 

Article 210 says that any circuits feeding dining rooms etc shall be considered one or more of the required Small Appliance Branch Circuits.

The Dining Room is considered a SABC.

It than says that these circuits shall serve no other outlets, meaning you can't serve an outside receptacle even if it's a dedicated circuit to the Dining Room. 

If you bring a 15A home run into that dining room for the outside receptacles you can't bring it into the Dining Room. 

Read through this thread a little more carefully, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

I'll cite the articles to back up what I'm saying if you really insist.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm sure we can debate this all night, but, the min 2 SABC shall have no other outlets is correct. But, if you install a additional 20a circuit for the dinning area you can feed the outdoor rec. You have installed more than the min of 2 SABC.

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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I'm sure we can debate this all night, but, the min 2 SABC shall have no other outlets is correct. But, if you install a additional 20a circuit for the dinning area you can feed the outdoor rec. You have installed more than the min of 2 SABC.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


No you can't.

The dining room receptacles must be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit (See 210.52(B)(1)) and the small appliance branch circuit shall have no other outlets. So no matter how many small appliance branch circuits you use they must meet 210.52(B)(2).

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

raider1 said:


> No you can't.
> 
> The dining room receptacles must be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit (See 210.52(B)(1)) and the small appliance branch circuit shall have no other outlets. So no matter how many small appliance branch circuits you use they must meet 210.52(B)(2).
> 
> Chris


It's stating of the min requirement of 2 SABC cannot exceed the parameters set fourth. If you install a additional dedicated 20 branch circuit you can. You have exceed the requirement. If you had only the 2 SABC circuits then you can not. I understand that. Do you know how many times I have done this and every inspector as agreed. Key word here exceeded the requirement. The additional SABC circuit is separate from everything else. You can.
Ask any inspector. Let's just say a large great room had a living room and dinning room. And you wired both portions of the room with same dedicated 20 amp circuit. Where does the dining room begin or end of there are no demizing walls to distinguish which is the DR and which is LR. So you install a dedicated circuit to make everyone happy. And now you can do whatever you want with that circuit.

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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Actually Salvatoreg02 is somewhat correct, depending on what he is using that additional 15 or 20 ampere circuit for.

The dining room outlets shall be part of the SABC's. We all agree on that -

- BUT .......... 
Not everything in the code is cut and dry so........

Now Lets look into adding an additional circuit that feeds the lighting in the dining room. Lets feed a circuit for the lights in the dining room and kitchen. The kitchen must have an overhead luminaire as per 210.70.
The dining room can have a switch controlled receptacle as the lighting outlet, Also as per 210.70.
Now we have a receptacle in the dining room that is not part of the SABC and also requires AFCI protection. There is nothing in the code that prohibits a person from feeding the outside receptacle off this lighting circuit. Thus we end up with a exterior GFCI receptacle fed off of an AFCI protected receptacle in the dining room that is not part of the required small appliance branch circuits.

Other then that the Dining Receptacles shall be considered SABC's

Those of you with a 2011 Handbook look at page 104, Exhibit 210.28
Those with a 2008 Handbook look at page 99, exhibit 210.26


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It's stating of the min requirement of 2 SABC cannot exceed the parameters set fourth. If you install a additional dedicated 20 branch circuit you can.


Please read it again it does not say that 210.52(B)(2) only applies to the minimum 2 circuits.




> Do you know how many times I have done this and every inspector as agreed.


I really don't care that does not make it correct.



> Key word here exceeded the requirement. The additional SABC circuit is separate from everything else.


No it is not. 210.52(B)(1) requires the dinning room receptacles to be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit and that circuit must meet 210.52(B)(2) regardless of whether or not there are 2 additional circuits.

Chris


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It's stating of the min requirement of 2 SABC cannot exceed the parameters set fourth. If you install a additional dedicated 20 branch circuit you can. You have exceed the requirement. If you had only the 2 SABC circuits then you can not. I understand that. Do you know how many times I have done this and every inspector as agreed. Key word here exceeded the requirement. The additional SABC circuit is separate from everything else. You can.
> Ask any inspector. Let's just say a large great room had a living room and dinning room. And you wired both portions of the room with same dedicated 20 amp circuit. Where does the dining room begin or end of there are no demizing walls to distinguish which is the DR and which is LR. So you install a dedicated circuit to make everyone happy. And now you can do whatever you want with that circuit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Hey Sal, Section 210.52(B)(2) 2011 NEC, reads: "The two or more small-appliance brance circuits....shall have no other outlets." Key words are: Two or More.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

never mind


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Hey Sal, Section 210.52(B)(2) 2011 NEC, reads: "The two or more small-appliance brance circuits....shall have no other outlets." Key words are: Two or More.


Alright, I'll give it to you this time. You have proven me wrong. But, I did ask the inspector that question the other day and he did say if you install a dedicated BC you will never have any issues, he did say if I used the only 2 required SABC he would see it as a violation.

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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> I didn't think the NEC allows an outside receptacle (outlet?) on a small appliance circuit.


As long as the DR circuit does not serve the countertop it is permisible.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

nyr114 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> On a new residential house wiring job I have an outside outlet on one of my AFCI circuits (dining room). Just curious as to what you think about putting a GFI (for the outside receptacle) on an Arc Fault circuit.


Don't do it. The AFCI will trip intermittenly.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electrictim510 said:


> Don't do it. The AFCI will trip intermittenly.


Have you read the thread? It will only trip intermittently if there is a problem on the circuit or with the equipment plugged in. There is GFCI built into AFCI so why would it be a problem?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Have you read the thread? It will only trip intermittently if there is a problem on the circuit or with the equipment plugged in. There is GFCI built into AFCI so why would it be a problem?




Not all brands of ARC fault breakers have gfi protection built into them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Not all brands of ARC fault breakers have gfi protection built into them.


Ge is the only one that doesn't, afaik, but my point was if they have gfci and work then why wouldn't an afci work on a gfci circuit.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Ge is the only one that doesn't, afaik, but my point was if they have gfci and work then why wouldn't an afci work on a gfci circuit.


From what i have found is you can trip a GFCI receptacle and the AFCI breaker will hold..

I have never read any thing that states that AFCI breakers have GFCI protection built into them,,

I have been looking for a link that talks about that but i cannot find one.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Harry AFCI breakers have GFCI protection but they do not have the same protection as a GFCI breaker or receptacle. I think the AFCI has 30 ma while the GFCI has 5ma protection.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Ge is the only one that doesn't, afaik, but my point was if they have gfci and work then why wouldn't an afci work on a gfci circuit.




I agree but you know we are sticklers for facts so I just thought I would point that out.


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