# difference between the afci breaker and the new combination afci



## jorgymux0048 (Mar 5, 2008)

whats the difference between the AFCI breakers and the new combination AFCI breakers there coming out with


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

From the GE web site:

*Branch/Feeder AFCI*

A Branch/Feeder AFCI has the ability to detect and neutralize a parallel arc fault, which is the unintentional flow of electricity between two separate wires. There are three types of parallel arc faults: line-to-line, line-to-ground, and line-to-neutral. The Branch/Feeder AFCI is permitted by the 1999-2005 NEC® Code.

*Combination AFCI*

GE's Combination AFCI delivers 5 kinds of protection:
Parallel protection – Just like its Branch/Feeder counterpart, Combination AFCI can detect and neutralize parallel arc faults
Series Protection – A series arc fault is the unintended flow of electricity over a gap within a single wire. These arc faults were not detectable until advanced technology allowed the development of the Combination AFCI breaker.
Ground protection – Arcing between a single conductor and a ground line
Overload protection
Short circuit protection

The 'old' AFCIs only detected an arc between two wires, line-ground, line-line, and line-neutral. The new ones detect an arc within a single wire (loose connection).


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

Also, the ITE (I hope other manufacturers have this feature or are working on it) combination breaker has LEDs to indicate what type of fault it is.
Oh yeah, the other difference is the combo unit is about $10 more.


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## busymnky (Feb 16, 2009)

*Afi readme*

this may help


480sparky said:


> From the GE web site:
> *Branch/Feeder AFCI*
> 
> A Branch/Feeder AFCI has the ability to detect and neutralize a parallel arc fault, which is the unintentional flow of electricity between two separate wires. There are three types of parallel arc faults: line-to-line, line-to-ground, and line-to-neutral. The Branch/Feeder AFCI is permitted by the 1999-2005 NEC® Code.
> ...


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> From the GE web site:
> 
> *Branch/Feeder AFCI*
> 
> ...


AFCIs also protect against the use of some vacuum cleaners as well.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jorgymux0048 said:


> whats the difference between the AFCI breakers and the new combination AFCI breakers there coming out with


About ten bucks! :jester:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Podagrower said:


> Also, the ITE (I hope other manufacturers have this feature or are working on it) combination breaker has LEDs to indicate what type of fault it is.
> Oh yeah, the other difference is the combo unit is about $10 more.


ITE? I'm assuming you mean Siemens/Murray.


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## Awsomeo (Jan 19, 2009)

It's March 2014 and someone in the inspectors office just heard of _combination_ type arc fault breakers. Boy are the electricians screaming here about getting turned down on new houses after purchasing and installing new arc fault breakers without the combination feature. Sounds like somebody in the arc fault industry has discovered a way to make more money by inventing something new and marketing it to the NEC. If they are so great, why don't we have to install them on commercial buildings?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So what about the afci's we've installed the last 15 yrs sold to us on the same premise?

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> So what about the afci's we've installed the last 15 yrs sold to us on the same premise?
> 
> ~CS~


They are completely worthless and troublesome.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> They are completely worthless and troublesome.



The old ones, or the new? Iirc, we're on version 3 now?

I'm not one to buy any manufacturing sales pitch lightly Doc

I'd like the text of whatever UL change (1699?) to clarify exactly what manufacturing change allowed _'combination'_ before i'm held accountable for their performance

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> The old ones, or the new? Iirc, we're on version 3 now?
> 
> I'm not one to buy any manufacturing sales pitch lightly Doc
> 
> ...


I don't want to sound bias, the old ones belong in a trash can, the new ones belong on the shelf and not in a panel.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Awsomeo said:


> It's March 2014 and someone in the inspectors office just heard of _combination_ type arc fault breakers. Boy are the electricians screaming here about getting turned down on new houses after purchasing and installing new arc fault breakers without the combination feature. Sounds like somebody in the arc fault industry has discovered a way to make more money by inventing something new and marketing it to the NEC. If they are so great, why don't we have to install them on commercial buildings?


I didn't think that any one was still selling the old "branch circuit and feeder" type AFCIs. The requirement to use "combination" type AFCIs first appeared in the 2005 code with an effective date of 1/1/2008.

Note that with the new rules in the 2014 code, at least one manufacture has a device that is listed to provide both AFCI and GFCI protection and some are calling that a "combination" device. That is not a "combination AFCI" as defined in the NEC. Not sure what it should be called...maybe "dual purpose AFCI/GFCI device".


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Well combination comes in 2 types:

1. Can detect both a parallel and series arc

2. Can detect both parallel and series arc AND also has 5ma GFCI protection.

Non combination:

1. only detects parallel arcs. No longer used under any of the new codes.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I don't want to sound bias, the old ones belong in a trash can, the new ones belong on the shelf and not in a panel.


Exactly!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

There's a fair amount of smarts in the many afci threads i've been privy to here, as well as a number of pro sites

I've been around for quite a while listening, asking, even being PM'd by the writers in our trade rags feeding me little pearls of info here & there _(i suppose they like to crank me up & let me loose ?) _ 

What do these folks all have in common? They're all asking for  clarification.

There have also been a number of rop's pursuant to the same end

This has literally evolved into our trades _global warming_ issue due to that clarity being ellusive ....~CS~


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## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

user4818 said:


> ITE? I'm assuming you mean Siemens/Murray.


Same difference!!!!


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I didn't think that any one was still selling the old "branch circuit and feeder" type AFCIs. The requirement to use "combination" type AFCIs first appeared in the 2005 code with an effective date of 1/1/2008.
> 
> Note that with the new rules in the 2014 code, at least one manufacture has a device that is listed to provide both AFCI and GFCI protection and some are calling that a "combination" device. That is not a "combination AFCI" as defined in the NEC. Not sure what it should be called...maybe "dual purpose AFCI/GFCI device".


It's Square D QO and Homeline series and they call it "Dual Function"


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jett95 said:


> Same difference!!!!


Right, but Siemens bought ITE decades ago and the name has disappeared from use.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

erics37 said:


> It's Square D QO and Homeline series and they call it "Dual Function"


Link to those wondering about em'

http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=356297166&p_File_Name=0760HO1401.pdf


http://www.schneider-electric.com/p...2275-homeline-dual-function-circuit-breakers/


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

All _'time saver technology' _aside ....methinks this is where the rubber meets the road Meadow>



> UL® 489
> •	UL 1699
> •	UL 943


~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> All _'time saver technology' _aside ....methinks this is where the rubber meets the road Meadow>
> 
> 
> 
> ~CS~


I would say so for dual function AFCI/GFCI.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

::shoot the moon::.. bout twice as much?..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The dual afci/gfci will be a good argument to my inspector that believes it should be on the same floor.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

meadow said:


> Well combination comes in 2 types:
> 
> 1. Can detect both a parallel and series arc
> 
> ...


The only combination device per the NEC rules is the device that is said to detect parallel and series arcing faults. While the new AFCI/GFCI device may be called a "combination device" by electricians, that only leads to confusion as to what device is needed.


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