# A question for older electricians.



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Did you notice if there was a threaded hole in the box for a ground screw? If not, they should have used a ground clip.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> Did you notice if there was a threaded hole in the box for a ground screw? If not, they should have used a ground clip.


I was asking if anybody knew why they basically ignored the reduced size ground wire. They relied on the box clamp to make the connection. I doubt they had ground clip back then.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

That was right around the time NEC started mandating equipment grounds. Ironically many boxes and devices simply did not accommodate for the ground. I’ve seen thousands of bx made up with the ground wire back wrapped around the cable. It never entered the box. It was one of those transition period in the life of the NEC


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> That was right around the time NEC started mandating equipment grounds. Ironically many boxes and devices simply did not accommodate for the ground. I’ve seen thousands of bx made up with the ground wire back wrapped around the cable. It never entered the box. It was one of those transition period in the life of the NEC


That's what I thought. A transition time when electricians did not know what to do with it.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I just came here to hear what the old guys had to say.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Don't know about the states, but here they wrapped the ground around the bolt on the internal clamp. Then cut off the tail as receptacles either didn't have a ground, or there was no provision in the code. (60s for sure, don't know about the 50s.
The boxes didn't have a threaded hole and the code didn't require bonding.
Wrapping the aluminum ribbon strip around the cable and clamping it, was the method we used for BX (AC90 for you kids lol)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> That's what I thought. A transition time when electricians did not know what to do with it.


I doubt that was the case. It would have been simple to install a bolt through the box with a nut at rough in to ground the box. What makes you think the installs you see were done by electricians and not homeowners or hacks?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

joe-nwt said:


> I just came here to hear what the old guys had to say.


Who you calling old?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

backstay said:


> I doubt that was the case. It would have been simple to install a bolt through the box with a nut at rough in to ground the box. What makes you think the installs you see were done by electricians and not homeowners or hacks?


That was the reason I have heard for ages, electricians didn't know what to do with it. They wouldn't have even known to add a screw and nut. I see too many here that I know were done by electricians, all though they are long passed.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> That was the reason I have heard for ages, electricians didn't know what to do with it. They wouldn't have even known to add a screw and nut. I see too many here that I know were done by electricians, all though they are long passed.


So you believe the NEC mandated a ground wire with a branch circuit, but not how it was to be terminated? Good luck finding a 1950s electrician on here.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wcord said:


> Who you calling old?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

backstay said:


> So you believe the NEC mandated a ground wire with a branch circuit, but not how it was to be terminated? Good luck finding a 1950s electrician on here.


I don't know when it was mandated. It could have been like a lot of products today. The mfg come out with something then it gets mandated into code. Plus, you have to realize that a lot of rural areas had no code to go by, or at least no inspections.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)




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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> So you believe the NEC mandated a ground wire with a branch circuit, but not how it was to be terminated? Good luck finding a 1950s electrician on here.


I am working on houses that my grandfather wired in the late 1940s , 1950s and my father wired in the 50s, 60s. Back then they used a lot of ungrounded NM cable. I have to dig up my collection of old code books to check out grounding requirements.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am working on houses that my grandfather wired in the late 1940s , 1950s and my father wired in the 50s, 60s. Back then they used a lot of ungrounded NM cable. I have to dig up my collection of old code books to check out grounding requirements.


I have an early 60s somewhere, just not sure where to start looking.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

I don't think it's accurate to say they didn't know what to do with it because even in much older homes certain items like bathroom lights and switches for outside lights had bonds, and that's going all the way back to knob and tube. I have seen separate wires, usually white, run to a water line then to the box where a nut and bolt was installed. Not the best pic, but you can see the single bond coming from downstairs. 1940 house.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

wcord said:


> Don't know about the states, but here they wrapped the ground around the bolt on the internal clamp. Then cut off the tail as receptacles either didn't have a ground, or there was no provision in the code.


I find this very often in older homes in my area.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Kawicrash said:


> I don't think it's accurate to say they didn't know what to do with it because even in much older homes certain items like bathroom lights and switches for outside lights had bonds, and that's going all the way back to knob and tube. I have seen separate wires, usually white, run to a water line then to the box where a nut and bolt was installed. Not the best pic, but you can see the single bond coming from downstairs. 1940 house.
> View attachment 159022


When you find old BX in those houses, the BX will have a strap and single wire to bond the jacket to the closest cold water line.
Usually washroom light, outside light and stove cable


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

The ground wire was wrapped around because the boxes were small relatively speaking and it provided grounding when clamped into the romex connector or the internal clamp. It was easier than trying to wrap it around the clamp screw. You hardly ever saw a ground screw in the old time boxes.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Grounded electric was new technology back then.....when I first started you didn't have to put a ground screw in an outlet box. As NEC developed over the years better safer ways came about. back in the day I would wrap a ground around the cover screw......bending that old wire in a junction box leads to nothing but problems.

As far as that old BX with the cloth fiber conductors...that stuff is more unsafe than knob and tube.....In my career i seen the armor at least 20 times glowing red hot like a poker.....a shorted hot water to metal case and loose connections to the metal boxes or panel can easily cause a fire. One time in a in North East Philly i seen 2 feet of this **** glowing red hot coming out of the panel inches away from the wood ceiling timbers.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Since I was born in 1951 I don't know why it was done that way but here is my guess. Before nm cable there was bx and the bare bonding wire was wrapped around the metal sheath to hold the anti short in place and some thought it needed to be attached to the sheathing. When nm came about and the equipment grounding conductor showed up they figured to wrap it as they did the bx and that was that. 

In the beginning I don't believe grounded receptacles were required except for in the kitchen. I have seen many homes with grounded outlets in the kitchen but not other areas in spite of the fact that there was a ground in the cable.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Does anybody remember the reason for terminating the ground wire the way they did on installations back in the 1950s +/-? Lately I have been doing more and more house renovations and I noticed the electricians back then took the reduced ground wire and just wrapped it around the cloth NM cable and then just tightened the connector or clamp. I am assuming that this was the time when the ground wire came into being and the electricians did not know what to do with it. Many times I saw the wires twisted outside the box and the wrapped around any box screw but lately I am seeing no twisting or directly bonding to the box.


Because they didn't know any better.
PS:
IF there is a bare equipment grounding conductor in the NM, it is probably no older than sometime in the 60's. I saw an office installation where the bare EGC's were twisted together, cut fairly short, and just shoved into the back of the box.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I used to see them pulled back up under the clamp and twisted to the other grounds that we’re doing the same thing. They would all be twisted together, outside the box, under a fork Sta-Kon, and screwed to where the ears on an old work box would go. The bracket boxes and old work boxes both had threaded holes for the ears. The devices didn’t have a ground.
I worked with a guy, where if the box didn’t have a threaded hole, and he was adding a Romex, he would fold the ground back and forth along the sheath and tighten it up under the connector. I would take the time and get a drill and tap or a ground clip.


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## getting old (Mar 26, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Since I was born in 1951 I don't know why it was done that way but here is my guess. Before nm cable there was bx and the bare bonding wire was wrapped around the metal sheath to hold the anti short in place and some thought it needed to be attached to the sheathing. When nm came about and the equipment grounding conductor showed up they figured to wrap it as they did the bx and that was that.
> 
> In the beginning I don't believe grounded receptacles were required except for in the kitchen. I have seen many homes with grounded outlets in the kitchen but not other areas in spite of the fact that there was a ground in the cable.


This was always my thought as well. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I think the old guys didn't like grounds the way we didn't like GFCI'S at first and now don't like AFCI's, seen a few houses where the bare wire in romex was chopped short. Seen a FHA house wired in mid-70's with "plain" romex (what we used to ask for if we didn't want bare ground, only been a few years ago when I realized I didn't have to say "with ground ' at SH counter)


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

McClary’s Electrical said:


> That was right around the time NEC started mandating equipment grounds. Ironically many boxes and devices simply did not accommodate for the ground. I’ve seen thousands of bx made up with the ground wire back wrapped around the cable. It never entered the box. It was one of those transition period in the life of the NEC


That silver wire in old BX was NOT a ground wire.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

backstay said:


> So you believe the NEC mandated a ground wire with a branch circuit, but not how it was to be terminated? Good luck finding a 1950s electrician on here.


It wasn't a ground wire. It was a bonding strip in case the armor separated somewhere. Proper termination was to either push the silver wire into the sheathing, or just bend back over the sheathing and both methods requiring the rated connector. At this time equipment ground relied on the metal of the jacket for BX, and conduit was used as the equipment ground when using conduit. However for obvious reasons it was discovered that if conduit separated somewhere and there was a fault, you now have a hazard if touching the separated ends of conduit.
A proper BX connector has one screw which screws tight to the armor. Not a MC/AC connector which typically has two clamp screws like a NM connector.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Veteran Sparky said:


> It wasn't a ground wire. It was a bonding strip in case the armor separated somewhere. Proper termination was to either push the silver wire into the sheathing, or just bend back over the sheathing and both methods requiring the rated connector. At this time equipment ground relied on the metal of the jacket for BX, and conduit was used as the equipment ground when using conduit. However for obvious reasons it was discovered that if conduit separated somewhere and there was a fault, you now have a hazard if touching the separated ends of conduit.
> A proper BX connector has one screw which screws tight to the armor. Not a MC/AC connector which typically has two clamp screws like a NM connector.


My comment was speaking to NM, not BX.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Locally, mid to late 1950's homes were required to have a ground wire attached to metal boxes in kitchens & baths, they ran a bare copper conductor to a water pipe & the conductor was wrapped around a nail supporting the box. A rather archaic method in my opinion.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Veteran Sparky said:


> That silver wire in old BX was NOT a ground wire.


I never said it was


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am working on houses that my grandfather wired in the late 1940s , 1950s and my father wired in the 50s, 60s. Back then they used a lot of ungrounded NM cable. I have to dig up my collection of old code books to check out grounding requirements.


sounds like your family didnt do a very good job if each generation has to go back after and keep working.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Majewski said:


> sounds like your family didnt do a very good job if each generation has to go back after and keep working.


?. They are also second and third generation repeat customers. Codes were different back in the 40s and 50s so I was curious why they did what they did back then. "A" base indoor meters, four circuits in a house, soldered splices.... During the wars, copper was in short supply so un-grounded cables were used then they went to a reduced size ground. I opt to rewire the house rather than GFCI the receptacles.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

The history of the area also has a lot to do with what was installed. I came from the Midwest long ago and there was a fair amount of farms that had DC in the beginning. Then converted to AC.
Found a restaurant in Phoenix that had fused neutrals which indicated DC to me. We were completely rewiring the place. My JW in charge was proceeding to explain to me the right way to test the existing wires to see if they were hot. I disagreed with him, He chose to strip a piece of copper wire and grab onto a galvanized water pipe. We got him out of the attic and into the ambulance and I was promoted the next day to lead man. He had gotten hammered really hard when he completed the circuit. DC was never very prevalent in Phoenix in the early days.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

I've come across instances where the electrician just got pissed off at the extra unneeded newfangled ground wire and cut them off flush with the jacket. 

Not helpful. 

There was a couple year period when a ground wire was required but devices and boxes handn't been made to accept them yet. Very late 1950's


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

kbatku said:


> I've come across instances where the electrician just got pissed off at the extra unneeded newfangled ground wire and cut them off flush with the jacket.


lotsa that around here


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I remember a reduced size ground in NMB for a while. Like 18 gauge or maybe 14. Back in those days we rarely used anything smaller than 12.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

SWDweller said:


> I remember a reduced size ground in NMB for a while. Like 18 gauge or maybe 14. Back in those days we rarely used anything smaller than 12.


That squiggly stuff?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

SWDweller said:


> I remember a reduced size ground in NMB for a while. Like 18 gauge or maybe 14. Back in those days we rarely used anything smaller than 12.





joe-nwt said:


> That squiggly stuff?


I see that all the time, I think it's #16 in what I see around here. Usually when I see the oddball improvised ground wire terminations, it's that reduced size wire.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

My first boss taught me to wrap that ground around the neutral wire and insert them both (Together) under a screw on the neutral bar. We did it that way for years. I guess that worked fine at the time, especially when the neutral bar was bonded to the panel. In retrospect, that practice didn't work so great for sub-feed panels.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Quickservice said:


> My first boss taught me to wrap that ground around the neutral wire and insert them both (Together) under a screw on the neutral bar. We did it that way for years. I guess that worked fine at the time, especially when the neutral bar was bonded to the panel. In retrospect, that practice didn't work so great for sub-feed panels.


what year did the grd/neu split for subpanels occur ??


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Quickservice said:


> My first boss taught me to wrap that ground around the neutral wire and insert them both (Together) under a screw on the neutral bar.


I did that for many years thinking it was neater, saved lugs for future, and made it easier to find which neutral went with which bare. Of course I don't any more, but have been in many of those panels and not seen any problems creates by this, some of those panels I've seen recently that I wired 40+ years ago 

And got paid to separate one I wired, due to HI report


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Quickservice said:


> My first boss taught me to wrap that ground around the neutral wire and insert them both (Together) under a screw on the neutral bar. We did it that way for years. I guess that worked fine at the time, especially when the neutral bar was bonded to the panel. In retrospect, that practice didn't work so great for sub-feed panels.


Never code compliant


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Majewski said:


> Never code compliant


But accepted for many years, and in my opinion, there really is nothing wrong with it if the lug is rated for 2 wires. If you are lifting the ground you should have the circuit shut off anyway so there shouldn't be any open nuetral issues.
Oh. But don't twist them together though. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Forge Boyz said:


> But accepted for many years, and in my opinion, there really is nothing wrong with it if the lug is rated for 2 wires. If you are lifting the ground you should have the circuit shut off anyway so there shouldn't be any open nuetral issues.
> Oh. But don't twist them together though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


so go make your own code book


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Majewski said:


> Never code compliant


Except on bars with lugs rated for 2 wires


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

readydave8 said:


> Except on bars with lugs rated for 2 wires


no sheet sherlock lol. now go find all the resi lugs that were. we're waiting


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Majewski said:


> no sheet sherlock lol. now go find all the resi lugs that were. we're waiting


Yeah you're right


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Majewski said:


> no sheet sherlock lol. now go find all the resi lugs that were. we're waiting


I know these are ground not neutral bars


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

readydave8 said:


> I know these are ground not neutral bars


Huh


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## taglicious (Feb 8, 2020)

readydave8 said:


> I think the old guys didn't like grounds the way we didn't like GFCI'S at first and now don't like AFCI's, seen a few houses where the bare wire in romex was chopped short. Seen a FHA house wired in mid-70's with "plain" romex (what we used to ask for if we didn't want bare ground, only been a few years ago when I realized I didn't have to say "with ground ' at SH counter)


I started laughing... i cant stop... hilarious


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## RodDriver (Nov 9, 2019)

Plenty of old houses in Detroit have no grounds at all. Many have the old knob and tube wiring. Seems like our systems are still evolving. I remember an old timer telling me they used to always switch the neutral. And I've run across that. I recently had to troubleshoot shorts in a house with no grounds. Man is that a challenge. Wired a subpanel in a barn that had no ground running back to source - just a ground rod. Used to be acceptable. Now we know a rod is not enough to flip a breaker in case of a ground fault. I think that's a fairly recent finding.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

but the subpanel in the barn had neutral bonded to ground? so breaker would tend to trip even though ground not run back to main panel


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> I just came here to hear what the old guys had to say.


I’m just glad to find out I’m not old yet.


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## 205490 (Jun 23, 2020)

This thread is ageist!


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## Warstg_20 (Apr 4, 2013)

just checking who's old guys here


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Old bull, young bull!


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## Warstg_20 (Apr 4, 2013)

backstay said:


> Old bull, young bull!


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## Warstg_20 (Apr 4, 2013)

CA C-10 said:


> This thread is ageist!


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## Warstg_20 (Apr 4, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> I’m just glad to find out I’m not old yet.


Same here


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