# Should I stay? Or should I go?



## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

After working over 3 years doing commercial work and earning a decent salary with some bennies, the union is offering me an apprenticeship with a huge pay cut with no guarantee of work after I top out. Opinions?

Some information:
I'm over 30 yo
I live in northeast PA. Not a city, but not quite rural.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

mpcxl said:


> After working over 3 years doing commercial work and earning a decent salary with some bennies, the union is offering me an apprenticeship with a huge pay cut with no guarantee of work after I top out. Opinions?
> 
> Some information:
> I'm over 30 yo
> I live in northeast PA. Not a city, but not quite rural.


I just went through the same experience I've been doing commercial industrial work , geting good experience and making 25$ ph
Non union , I was geting benies but they were taking out two much for it so I stoped , the work was steady tho .

I had the opportunity to get into apprentiship program starting over .
First they told me I had to do labor history befor I started apprentiship but I was able to take jmans test and test to first year apprentice and skip labor history .

So I'll start at 12 ph taking a hudge paycut but to me it's worth it one hundred times over. 

Bc now I get pention , annuity ,
Healthcare with no money taken out, 5 years of schooling for free,

And the oppertunities to be put on hudge union jobs , being part of a brotherhood , and the pride that comes with being a union electrician .
Most of the times the apprentices 
Stay busy once you become jman 
It mite slow up but you have the option of signing other locals book two that have work . So you'll have options ,

And your guaranteed a raise every year till u max out , in non union you have no contract your not guaranteed a raise at any point , you'll have to beg for it .
You can be fired at any point and then have to ask for what your worth 
With next employer ,

In the union you havd a set wage 
In a contract you have a voice , protection , in my oooo it's worth it

You'll go down in pay but every year it gets better bc ure guranteeed a raise as long as u get the hours in .

I'm just starting out in the ibew but I wouldn't change a thing I'm so grateful for this opertunity . 

But it is a big sacrifice at first but in long haul worth it , like I said your guaranteed a set wage every year u go up and the jw wage is way more than you would make non union at least in nj / ny area jw make 42-52 $ 
Union non union 25-30


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The pay cut is because you will be a 1st year apprentice, correct? What about in a year when you become a 2nd year apprentice? or a 3rd, 4t, or 5th?

You say the union is offering you an apprenticeship, why? They just came up to you and offered?

As for a guarantee of work, no one will ever offer you that, if they do they are lying.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

HackWork said:


> The pay cut is because you will be a 1st year apprentice, correct? What about in a year when you become a 2nd year apprentice? or a 3rd, 4t, or 5th?
> 
> You say the union is offering you an apprenticeship, why? They just came up to you and offered?
> 
> As for a guarantee of work, no one will ever offer you that, if they do they are lying.


I have applied twice since 2011. 1st year apprentice will cut my pay in half @ $12 ph.

I'm guessing work picked up since I haven't had an interview since 2016. I think I scored like an 89.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It will cut your pay in half for 1 year. Where will your pay be in 5 years? 10 years?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You're pay isn't your pay, if you're going to compare apples to apples you have to look at the wage and the value of the benefits. You might need to sit down with an accountant to really get a clear picture, but it's worth it. 

How do you feel about travelling if it's not busy locally? How far would you be willing to travel?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Do it! Supplement your income with some side work. Be quiet about it.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

splatz said:


> You're pay isn't your pay, if you're going to compare apples to apples you have to look at the wage and the value of the benefits. You might need to sit down with an accountant to really get a clear picture, but it's worth it.
> 
> How do you feel about travelling if it's not busy locally? How far would you be willing to travel?


I'm single with nothing to lose. I would be willing to travel for work and meeting new people. Ask me that question in 10 years, I may have a different answer.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

flyboy said:


> Do it! Supplement your income with some side work. Be quiet about it.


????


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

How do you explain union labor decreasing? What is the future for IBEW workers?


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

This opportunity may not pass your way again. 

Like splatz said, you need to consider the benefits and add that value as part of your total salary. How much to you have saved for retirement? Where is healthcare going to be in 10-20 years?

A pay cut almost always comes with a move like this.
Joining a union
Joining a city
Joining a utility

Like Hack implied, you need to look further down the road.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mpcxl said:


> How do you explain union labor decreasing? What is the future for IBEW workers?


No one knows.

But even if union labor disappears completely, wouldn't you rather be able to put on your resume that you went thru the best electrical apprenticeship known to man? That the world has ever seen? 

Yes, that's exactly how it's written on my resume


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

HackWork said:


> The pay cut is because you will be a 1st year apprentice, correct? What about in a year when you become a 2nd year apprentice? or a 3rd, 4t, or 5th?
> 
> You say the union is offering you an apprenticeship, why? They just came up to you and offered?
> 
> As for a guarantee of work, no one will ever offer you that, if they do they are lying.


The IBEW has been losing market share and is on a BIG recruiting campaign trying to increase their numbers and regain market share.

There are many large commercial projects going on here now and the locals in Oregon have been having 100+ unfilled calls per day at over $40 per hr

With many open calls and losing members mainly to retirement, if we don't keep up the incoming apprentices, the future will continue to decline as well imo.

I just heard our state has opened reciprocity to five other states and parts of Canada until 2020 trying to get wireman to come here to complete our jobs that need to be done

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mpcxl said:


> How do you explain union labor decreasing? What is the future for IBEW workers?


People just like you can make a difference.
I think it would be the best investment you could make at your age.
I did it at 25 and never looked back.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

do you know people in the local you are talking to? one more year working non-union you can walk in as a journeyman when the local has work(in most locals i know of). i'm not impressed with union training unlike some others. i would recommend studying the trade on your own, you can buy the same training books online or from apprentices done with them before they burn them.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

hd13 said:


> do you know people in the local you are talking to? one more year working non-union you can walk in as a journeyman when the local has work. i'm not impressed with union training unlike some others. i would recommend studying the trade on your own, you can buy the same training books online or from apprentices done with them before they burn them.


I agree. Union or not. There is always work to be done.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Even if your training is as good as the union's, people in the union may be biased against those that didn't complete the union apprenticeship, and you might not get the best treatment. 

They may do this because they feel their training is superior, or because they feel you owe them a few years at a cheap wage before you get the full deal, but it doesn't matter, it just might wind up costing you.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

hd13 said:


> do you know people in the local you are talking to? one more year working non-union you can walk in as a journeyman when the local has work. i'm not impressed with union training unlike some others. i would recommend studying the trade on your own, you can buy the same training books online or from apprentices done with them before they burn them.


For example. What don't I know already? Hit me with something they teach in the apprenticeship?


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

splatz said:


> Even if your training is as good as the union's, people in the union may be biased against those that didn't complete the union apprenticeship, and you might not get the best treatment.
> 
> They may do this because they feel their training is superior, or because they feel you owe them a few years at a cheap wage before you get the full deal, but it doesn't matter, it just might wind up costing you.


So if i know all the same stuff but don't go through the "training" I am SOL?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

in my experience organized guys fate is completely up to them. if you show up everyday on time wanting to do your job you could be superintendent in no-time. if you show up most days with only your hands out for a paycheck your likely to get two and a pink slip. the only time i see organized guys disrespected is by slugs in the break room when the guy isn't there or not because they are organized but because they are bums.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

they teach you how to work for bums in the apprenticeship, i didn't mean they teach a lot in the apprenticeship. actually the opposite. i meant that you should study electrical work above and beyond what the apprenticeship teaches and that if you want what they teach you can buy it elsewhere, you have to buy it when you go through the apprenticeship anyways.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Im glad the anti-union rhetoric showed up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> do you know people in the local you are talking to? one more year working non-union you can walk in as a journeyman when the local has work.


This is far from the truth.

Most IBEW locals would see 4 years non-union experience as nothing and make you join as a 1st year, maybe 2nd. The NJACT apprenticeship is 5 years so why would they let someone with less time join as a journeyman??


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> This is far from the truth.
> 
> Most IBEW locals would see 4 years non-union experience as nothing and make you join as a 1st year, maybe 2nd. The NJACT apprenticeship is 5 years so why would they let someone with less time join as a journeyman??


the locals around me do, including mine. 8,000 hrs and you can test and organize in


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

i'm pro IBEW, just telling it how i see it though.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

HackWork said:


> hd13 said:
> 
> 
> > do you know people in the local you are talking to? one more year working non-union you can walk in as a journeyman when the local has work.
> ...


How is this possible? How can you put someone with four years experience in the same boat as a first year?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

mpcxl said:


> So if i know all the same stuff but don't go through the "training" I am SOL?


No, just saying that you kind of might not get treated as a full member, on the job, and maybe at the hall. In a locale where there's not enough work to go around all the time, you might get less work than others. 

So stepping back a bit for a couple years now to do it by the numbers might pay off over the next 25.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mpcxl said:


> How is this possible? How can you put someone with four years experience in the same boat as a first year?


Because your experience could be installing outlets. Because you don't have the classroom time. Because getting in a good local shouldn't be easy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> the locals around me do, including mine. 8,000 hrs and you can test and organize in


You are missing the giant point. Your local is such a craphole that they let non-union guys without apprenticeships in after only 4 years of work while they make the guys that they train themselves go thru 5 years. That's how weak their own apprenticeship is.

In any decent local around the country you would need significantly more time working non-union. For example, a guy with 8 years experience non-union might be able to get into the local at 4th year apprentice level. 

Of course, he would make more money, get better benefits, and a better retirement package as a 4th year apprentice than he was getting topped out in the non-union sector.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You are missing the giant point. Your local is such a craphole that they let non-union guys without apprenticeships in after only 4 years of work while they make the guys that they train themselves go thru 5 years. That's how weak their own apprenticeship is.
> 
> .


might be the case


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

hackwork, do you know what your local's requirements are for organizing in though. besides being a superstar. some more information that may make my local and surrounding different as well is we often have clear books and open calls. i will have to look into it more but i thought the requirement's i cited were mandated by the international and if someone has 8,000 hrs, passed a code test and a simple hands on test(from the international) we had to let them in.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> hackwork, do you know what your local's requirements are for organizing in though. besides being a superstar. some more information that may make my local different as well is we often have clear books.


To be organized into my local you have to be working for a company that has been organized. It's very rare for someone to get in any other way other than applying for apprenticeship.

The last company that I know of that got organized had all of their men start as 1st year apprentices. They didn't care because the pay was only a few bucks less than they were making as J-men, but better benefits. And the pay jumps up significantly every year.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Hackwork and hd. Please state your local so I can get a better idea what area y'all work in.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Your local is such a craphole that they let non-union guys without apprenticeships in after only 4 years of work while they make the guys that they train themselves go thru 5 years. That's how weak their own apprenticeship is.
> 
> .





HackWork said:


> Im glad the anti-union rhetoric showed up.


 had to


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> To be organized into my local you have to be working for a company that has been organized. It's very rare for someone to get in any other way other than applying for apprenticeship.
> 
> The last company that I know of that got organized had all of their men start as 1st year apprentices. They didn't care because the pay was only a few bucks less than they were making as J-men, but better benefits. And the pay jumps up significantly every year.


i think the last company organized in my local was like 20 years ago


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> had to


No, that's not anti-union rhetoric. That is an accurate statement about your local. Seriously, use your head.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> i think the last company organized in my local was like 20 years ago


What you need to understand is that your local is a craphole and can't be used as an example when people talk about the IBEW.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mpcxl said:


> Hackwork and hd. Please state your local so I can get a better idea what area y'all work in.


102, but it's pretty much going to be the same for any normal local that you want to get into. 

The local that hd13 is talking about is probably going to be a waste of time. They clearly don't have a decent apprenticeship and their wages are probably not much more than non-union. Their marketshare is most likely very low as well.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

mpcxl said:


> Hackwork and hd. Please state your local so I can get a better idea what area y'all work in.


That's a good question but the local that really matters is yours.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What you need to understand is that your local is a craphole and can't be used as an example when people talk about the IBEW.


it's an ibew local and actually when i run into people from other locals that have worked with guys from mine they compliment the quality of work and workers. that makes it even scarier.


do you think you got great training from your apprenticeship?


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Wtf is going on?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

mpcxl said:


> Wtf is going on?


i'm packing my bags, to move.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

mpcxl said:


> Hackwork and hd. Please state your local so I can get a better idea what area y'all work in.


 im in upper midwest, hopefully hack is correct and the local you are applying to is like his. im in a heavy industrial and agricultural area.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

hd13 said:


> it's an ibew local and actually when i run into people from other locals that have worked with guys from mine they compliment the quality of work and workers. that makes it even scarier.


 Other tiny locals with garbage apprenticeships that take in new journeyman after only 4 years experience. Again, that ain't sayin' much.




> do you think you got great training from your apprenticeship?


I think that any good IBEW local with the full NJATC apprenticeship program will give you the best training you will find.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Other tiny locals with garbage apprenticeships that take in new journeyman after only 4 years experience. Again, that ain't sayin' much.


chicago and nyc.





HackWork said:


> I think that any good IBEW local with the full NJATC apprenticeship program will give you the best training you will find.


i agree it is the best training you will find. but that doesn't mean it is good. do you think you got great training from your apprenticeship program?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh Jeeze, I think I got on the short bus by accident.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

mpcxl said:


> After working over 3 years doing commercial work and earning a decent salary with some bennies, the union is offering me an apprenticeship with a huge pay cut with no guarantee of work after I top out. Opinions?
> 
> Some information:
> I'm over 30 yo
> I live in northeast PA. Not a city, but not quite rural.


mpxcl, everything i posted is from my experience and my opinion. i admit and hope the local you are applying to may have a great apprenticeship program. i have not worked in your area and as you can see the union and apprenticeship is not the same everywhere. i recommend talking to the union reps you can and if you know any members talk to them as well.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

hd13 said:


> the locals around me do, including mine. 8,000 hrs and you can test and organize in


While it's true people can test and organize in after a certain number of hours bypassing the apprenticeship. Keep in mind 4 things:

1. The apprenticeship provides accredited training.

2. Becoming licensed in other jurisdictions, or other career moves later, a completed recognized apprenticeship helps, or is required.

3. While it may not be right, people that went thru the apprenticeship are always favored over the ones that skipped the training and organized in. Favored as in longer lengths of employment, OT, foreman, or leeway for breaking the rules. 

4. I know a number of guys that have the years, never got the training, and can't pass the tests to become a Journeyman Wireman. So they become CE or CW's that don't make the big money and not always liked.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's still simply amazes me that an IBEW local knows it's apprenticeship is so poor that they make you go through *five* years of it to be a journeyman while a nonunion person could come in as a journeyman after only *four* years of working experience and no classroom training.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Something you can look at is the IBEW job board listing.
http://ibew.org/jobsboard/
Look up your local. See what they list the work outlook as.
See how many are on book 1.
You can try to see if your local has a job call listing you can view on their web site or a number to call.
Not to say that you would be on book 1, more as a thermometer how busy the hall is.
Like 221 is listed as promising work outlook with only 1 on book 1.
That means only 1 JW from that hall is not working in that hall.
Many times there will be medically out of work, short calls, permanent travelers, and part time retirees that keep the number from 0.
That's a booming hall. 

Watch the number of times it goes to book 2 travelers, which means that day there were not enough local JWs to fill the jobs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah, when my hall is a walk-through there are still 40 guys on the list, so that's odd to see only one.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

So Hard


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Go for it.*

MPCXL
You answered the most important question already; *you are single and can do this*. 
Since you are in Northeast PA. and you don't need a license NOW, but what happens if that changes? 
My questions to you are.
1. What are *your* long term goals?
2. How are you going to round out your experience? 
Even if the work is slow, when you get your training and JW card no one can take that away, even if you go back to non-union. The union IS going to train you, use that to your advantage and don't waste it. Work hard and learn it all from trenching to connections. Remember anything worth it is never free or easy, you owe them for giving you a chance. Some apprentices think they are the ones doing the union the favor.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

active1 said:


> While it's true people can test and organize in after a certain number of hours bypassing the apprenticeship. Keep in mind 4 things:
> 
> 1. The apprenticeship provides accredited training.
> 
> ...


*I took the tests (5 parts) to organize in as a journeymen by a company that knew me and wanted me as an employee. I was there for a number of years and treated very well, I stayed until I made the choice to move on. *


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Just got back from orientation. Man did I feel like a fish outta water in the classroom. I was prob the oldest one. Mandatory hair drug test as soon as you got there. Oops! 

I feel I have a ton more experience than these kids. I still haven't quit my non union job yet. Apparently there is work available for apprentices and they want me to start asap. Having trouble quitting and taking the huge pay cut. 

Somehow they make it feel like electrical work is like candy land and people are nice to each other.

Usually everyone is busting each other's balls, and the foreman is running around yelling to get **** done. Wtf?

Isn't the name of the game production and get **** done? I mean, now I'm curious to see what a union job site is like.


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## mpcxl (Dec 9, 2015)

Someone please convince me sto stop. I'm about to turn down this IBEW apprenticeship.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

mpcxl said:


> Someone please convince me sto stop. I'm about to turn down this IBEW apprenticeship.


The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. 
The second best time is today.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

mpcxl said:


> Someone please convince me sto stop. I'm about to turn down this IBEW apprenticeship.


Think of your future.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

mpcxl said:


> Someone please convince me sto stop. I'm about to turn down this IBEW apprenticeship.


Honestly do what you want but if you care at all about retirement the IBEW retirement can not be beaten. Especially if you are in a good local.

Local 6 in San Francisco puts 14 dollars an hour into your retirement. This isnt a deduction like a 401k, nor do you have to match it. Would you like to have 28 grand a year put into your retirement that you didn't have to pay for?

Of course, every local negotiate their own pay and benefits package and your local might be one of the crap ones like mine but if you do not mind traveling you can retire with a lot of money.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

hd13 said:


> hackwork, do you know what your local's requirements are for organizing in though. besides being a superstar. some more information that may make my local and surrounding different as well is we often have clear books and open calls. i will have to look into it more but i thought the requirement's i cited were mandated by the international and if someone has 8,000 hrs, passed a code test and a simple hands on test(from the international) we had to let them in.



Our Hall is paying a $1000 signing bonus to sign up if you're licensed. 167 calls for tomorrow and they might fill 5


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