# Contracting without certification and not pulling permits



## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

if he runs his business like that it’ll catch up to him. I would show up to that job with an employee mentality and get paid and let him run his business how he sees fit until it all crashes down on him and then you can be there to benefit by providing the work legitimately.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You’re trying to dig yourself out of a hole but think about it for a minute. You can’t DIG yourself out of a hole, you’ll only get deeper.

This has to end at some point. Today is a good day.


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> if he runs his business like that it’ll catch up to him. I would show up to that job with an employee mentality and get paid and let him run his business how he sees fit until it all crashes down on him and then you can be there to benefit by providing the work legitimately.


 Yeah...it's a weird one. His customer has more stores coming up. Could do just do them all until he gets busted. Then, walk away.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

You can find he license and certification on TSBC site if he has any its updated daily


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

electricguy said:


> You can find he license and certification on TSBC site if he has any its updated daily


I already checked our local authority for his biz name and it's not there.


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> This guy is crazy busy too and extremely expensive. *He juggles jobs and hires crackheads off craigslist. Part of me hates the fact he's busier than me and has no credentials. His website is phoney along with his business address*.* Passes himself off as some high-end cabling company but can't pull his own permits*. Now, he wants me help him to try and get away with not getting noticed. But I know better. We'll do the job no permit, someone will notice and he'll be begging me to pull it after the fact with MY NAME on it looking like it was me the whole time. Basically gambling with my reputation.


get outta there buddy. Nothing good is going to come of this guy imo. I wouldn't want to be within a mile of him when this catches up to him


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> What would you do in this situation?


You already said it. "I'm going to tell him he needs the permit or I'm not doing it." 

You are licensed, and you know better. No excuses for you (at least around here there wouldn't be). 

If he (or you) gets the permit, then do it and be done. If no permit, problem solved.


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

oldsparky52 said:


> You already said it. "I'm going to tell him he needs the permit or I'm not doing it."
> 
> You are licensed, and you know better. No excuses for you (at least around here there wouldn't be).
> 
> If he (or you) gets the permit, then do it and be done. If no permit, problem solved.


What about option B? Like the other poster said, go in with the employee mentality and let him sink or swim after?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> What about option B? Like the other poster said, go in with the employee mentality and let him sink or swim after?


What's your excuse if you get caught working w/out a permit? You are not an employee, you are licensed so you are aware of the rules. 

You don't get a second chance to do the right thing. It's not that big of a deal either way, right?


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

oldsparky52 said:


> What's your excuse if you get caught working w/out a permit?


It's not my job. He's the one going to need a good excuse.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> It's not my job. He's the one going to need a good excuse.


Sounds like it's a go.


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

oldsparky52 said:


> Sounds like it's a go.


Well idk, I already texted him to get the permit but if he doesn't, it's really his neck on the line. Not until my name is on the permit, am I responsible for anything. I will say, I won't get it if he gets caught. Being devil's advocate here, what can happen to me?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Write up a simple contract and tell him you need him to sign for you to proceed. Protect yourself first.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> Being devil's advocate here, what can happen to me?


I guess the regulators "can" really mess with you  , but I bet it would be a simple reprimand.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

_You have 3 months to renew your certification or hire a qualified person(s) or your business license may be suspended_


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

He's lied to you, stalled your conversations to hide the truth, doesn't want to pull permits, wants to use your credentials to earn income without compensating you, *and* he's a _competitor_?

Cut ties now. That money should be yours, not his. 

Why would you want to be associated with someone who is *using you?*


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

ohm it hertz said:


> He's lied to you, stalled your conversations to hide the truth, doesn't want to pull permits, wants to use your credentials to earn income without compensating you, *and* he's a _competitor_?
> 
> Cut ties now. That money should be yours, not his.
> 
> Why would you want to be associated with someone who is *using you?*


 Just got off the phone with him and wow. He's stressing weirdly. You're right, I guess it only took a few years to find out he's a bit of a scammer. He was so reluctant to get the permit, I convinced him it's a serious thing not to and he right there told me he's going to call the customer and tell him it's not worth it to him. Then said the customer might be mad we have to get a permit, (it's the only reason he called me in the first place). Red flags were going off and i told him that. Said he's acting really suspicious. Then, he says he wants to be 100% with the GC and permit regulations to which i said "then why are we even having this discussion?" Strange af. Even if he has been bssing his way through life, I can still pull a permit for him and save his ass. But being reluctant now makes it bizarre. No need. Something is way off.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> he right there told me he's going to call the customer and tell him it's not worth it to him


Well then, you shouldn't feel bad about talking to the GC and offering your services directly. It could be a good opportunity, if you play your cards right.


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## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

I'd block his number from your phone. Just move on.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

The best contact I ever made was by working for a "know less than he thinks" kind of guy that knew the dock builder that wound up selling my future services. I was doing the electrical work for the fuel system for this jackleg and wound up fixing the problems with the fuel system. It was the beginning of a great working relationship (with the dock builder, not the jackleg). I think Murphy is onto something. 



BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Well then, you shouldn't feel bad about talking to the GC and offering your services directly. It could be a good opportunity, if you play your cards right.


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## devilsadvocate2017 (10 mo ago)

Buck Parrish Electric said:


> I'd block his number from your phone. Just move on.


Naa, you know the saying. Keep your friends close, enemies closer. I just verified he not only does not have a contracting license, he doesn't even have a business license. 
Ideally, one day...I want his client list.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

devilsadvocate2017 said:


> There's a guy I know that I met on a jobsite once and we've become colleagues somewhat. We help each other out from time to time and he asked me to help out with a couple of his jobs recently. Thing is, he asked me to pull the permit because "ah what a drag" he says, then he low balls me. I tell him if Im pulling the permit then I want my regular rate (we lower our rates when working for one another).
> 
> So, I've had my suspicions he's not certified (here in BC you must be ticketed to do data cabling) and he's lied point blank when I've asked him before. Now he admitted he hasn't "renewed" but I'm pretty sure he's not even in the system. So here's the kicker. We agreed on the job, he's already purchased the material and wants to start Monday. I asked him for the info I need to get the permit pulled and he started humming and hawing about it. Now he doesn't want to pull the permit. This is a reno job, not an "add on". There is a GC and trades. There has already been a tenant improvement permit pulled from the city and I've been here before when a customer tired to pull a quick one without getting noticed and I had to save the day.
> 
> ...


Run, not walk away.


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## hillsboroughelectric (Dec 9, 2021)

If this guy plays fast and loose with others then it's only a matter of time before he turns on you too.
You say that you are struggling getting as much business as he does. This is a marketing problem and you can fix that by learning that aspect of business and not depend on him or anyone else.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I dont see any way this ends well for you or him. The best case scenario is that it DOESNT end terribly.

Bottom line, dont put yourself on the line for someone who cuts corners you wouldnt cut.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Letting him use your license is the biggest possible mistake in this whole scenario.
He lies, he puts you off, he hires crackheads off craigslist.
Do you think he cares about the quality of the work, or does he just want to get by and get paid?
Do his crackhead assistants care about your reputation?
If (and probably when) they screw up, it will be your ass on the line.

What makes you think that anyone will want to hire you after they find out that you played along with his lies and you're willing to sell your soul to make some bucks? I don't think this situation makes you look good at all and my reaction would be to avoid both of you. I suspect my lawyer's reaction would be to sue you both: even if you have no responsibility, I bet he'd get some settlement money from your insurance company anyway. I wonder what your insurance company would think of you, especially if they had to pay for it...?

You know his work better than any of us, but it sounds to me like you don't think very highly of it.

So, would you actually hire this guy?

Would you hire the guys that he hires?

---
Here's the real opportunity I see for you. Have a Frank discussion about working together in the future where you will provide the license you and he will do the work, you will inspect it and make sure that it's in compliance, and - most important of all - you get a say in who else gets hired.
You work out the financials together however you want, but here's what I suggest: There is a bonus structure for landing the job and a bonus for providing the license. That compensates him or you for getting the job and it compensates you for having the license.

---
Meanwhile, get your social media and review site situation together so people find you and want to hire _you_.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

The real problem is that this guy is a sociopath and if you play in his sand box you will find it filled with mud. Sociopaths make EXCELLENT SALES PEOPLE because they have no conscience and learn how to mimic and reflect what people want to hear (this includes his customers and you). They ONLY care about themselves.
My two cents. GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THIS GUY. If you want his contacts then find the jobs he was on and talk to the general contractors. DO NOT MENTION THAT GUY TO THEM. IF they mention him to you then look away thoughtfully. Then say "no comment".
If they ask outright about his license tell them that you looked him up and can find none and that he tried to get you to pull permits for him but because he is committing crimes by doing unlicensed work you can not work with him at all (this is how you need to mentally frame your answer to him as well).
The issue with sociopaths is that eventually they are uncovered and lose any future with anyone they are involved with and/or cost them time, energy, effort and a hell of a lot of money.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Djea3 said:


> The real problem is that this guy is a sociopath and if you play in his sand box you will find it filled with mud. Sociopaths make EXCELLENT SALES PEOPLE because they have no conscience and learn how to mimic and reflect what people want to hear (this includes his customers and you). They ONLY care about themselves.
> My two cents. GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THIS GUY. If you want his contacts then find the jobs he was on and talk to the general contractors. DO NOT MENTION THAT GUY TO THEM. IF they mention him to you then look away thoughtfully. Then say "no comment".
> If they ask outright about his license tell them that you looked him up and can find none and that he tried to get you to pull permits for him but because he is committing crimes by doing unlicensed work you can not work with him at all (this is how you need to mentally frame your answer to him as well).
> The issue with sociopaths is that eventually they are uncovered and lose any future with anyone they are involved with and/or cost them time, energy, effort and a hell of a lot of money.


*BEST POST.*

Those who lie with dogs get up with fleas. This is a shortcut to wrecking your reputation, because when he gets caught you both get caught, and no-one will feel bad for you.

You're being used, like the kid in the neighborhood with a pool, that nobody calls all winter.

If you need to depend dirtbags like that, then close shop and get a job somewhere.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I don't think this situation makes you look good at all and my reaction would be to avoid both of you.


Now that you mention it I agree - you take a step back and the OP does have to bear some responsibility, looks less a victim and more a participant. 



Greg Sparkovich said:


> Here's the real opportunity I see for you. Have a Frank discussion about working together in the future where you will provide the license you and he will do the work, you will inspect it and make sure that it's in compliance, and - most important of all - you get a say in who else gets hired.
> You work out the financials together however you want, but here's what I suggest: There is a bonus structure for landing the job and a bonus for providing the license. That compensates him or you for getting the job and it compensates you for having the license.


I don't see any such arrangement ending well with this person either. 

There are people it's best to just avoid.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Also I don't know Canadas rules but in the states it would be hard to distinguish between you being a sub contractor and an employee. THAT is a big no no down here with the tax and insurance men.


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## d2043 (Nov 12, 2013)

Run from this guy. Turn him in for working illegally. If he wants to be in business he needs to play by the rules we all follow or find another trade. He is all about himseld and a user.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> Also I don't know Canadas rules but in the states it would be hard to distinguish between you being a sub contractor and an employee. THAT is a big no no down here with the tax and insurance men.


Our rules are similar.

I had that discussion with Revnue Canada ages ago. They asked why the biggest portion of my revenue was from the utility company. I told them there were not many people up here that could offer the same services and that I was relatively good at what I do.

They let it go.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Our rules are similar.
> 
> I had that discussion with Revnue Canada ages ago. They asked why the biggest portion of my revenue was from the utility company. I told them there were not many people up here that could offer the same services and that I was relatively good at what I do.
> 
> They let it go.


Same down here with PLC work. Biggest thing was they could not set my schedule and days, tell me how to do it or give me day to day work. Tax man said I was OK if I stuck to those rules.


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