# EMT roughs vs MC in studding



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I recently finished a 14 rm doctors office, I roughed the walls with 1/2 emt and deep 1900 boxes. Due to the grounding codes I had pulled on #12 ground for the circuit(s) in those conduits. My material purchases and lack of waste amazed me compared to the other method of the MC and the excess cuts myself and the help often leave. I would recommend if anyone is bidding a medical, place of assembly or restaurant and you are quick with your bender you might want to consider this method. Looks alot cleaner too in the end.:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Did you use this method in patient care rooms only or in the entire TI? I can not see how material could have offset the added labor.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

I love bending pipe!!!


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> I love bending pipe!!!


No, you just love pipe!!!


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

yep,yep!!!:thumbup:


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> No, you just love pipe!!!


I think he may have confused this with the PVC thread and meant to say he loves laying pipe.

Okay, back on topic.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> Did you use this method in patient care rooms only or in the entire TI? I can not see how material could have offset the added labor.


 It took me two liesurly weeks to rough in 52 receptacles, 24 GFI's , 40 lay in fixtures , 16 hihats, and about 25 switches. I would have had to use redundant ground MC ( MC w/ xtra ground wire) $$$ a roll. There was no MC used on this job with the exception of the outside soffit hihats . EMT and scraps of 3/8 greenfield for whips. One 3/4 HR conduit can run six circuits, the math is two #10 nueterals, six #12 hot conductors, one #12 ground, the EMT acts as the second ground. The walls were easy to rough since all I had to do is snap a line at the 1900 box side KO levels and punch the studs to knock out 8 or ten receptacles and then a riser to the cieling to link to a HR run. Mind you I do most of the work myself, with my wife or a partner. It's nice to see a service panel with eight 3/4 EMT HRs instead of a harness of MC cables. The job was underbid because my competitor planned on non hosp grade receptacles and standard wiring. I still walked away with a decent profit.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

I like pipe too, however , I will go with whatever the fastest, safest, legal application is. Seen tip ups with pipe to the area on the ceiling, and MC dropping to, and through the walls. Tight economy sees a tight belt!:thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> I think he may have confused this with the PVC thread and meant to say he loves laying pipe.
> 
> Okay, back on topic.


Don't mind smoking out of the pipe once in a while


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> It took me two liesurly weeks to rough in 52 receptacles, 24 GFI's , 40 lay in fixtures , 16 hihats, and about 25 switches. I would have had to use redundant ground MC ( MC w/ xtra ground wire) $$$ a roll. There was no MC used on this job with the exception of the outside soffit hihats . EMT and scraps of 3/8 greenfield for whips. One 3/4 HR conduit can run six circuits, the math is two #10 nueterals, six #12 hot conductors, one #12 ground, the EMT acts as the second ground. The walls were easy to rough since all I had to do is snap a line at the 1900 box side KO levels and punch the studs to knock out 8 or ten receptacles and then a riser to the cieling to link to a HR run. Mind you I do most of the work myself, with my wife or a partner. It's nice to see a service panel with eight 3/4 EMT HRs instead of a harness of MC cables. The job was underbid because my competitor planned on non hosp grade receptacles and standard wiring. I still walked away with a decent profit.


Really? That is interesting.

You do realize that a redundant grnd is only required in patient care areas (rooms) though, right?

Hospital grade devices are not required as you obviously know.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> I like pipe too, however , I will go with whatever the fastest, safest, legal application is. Seen tip ups with pipe to the area on the ceiling, and MC dropping to, and through the walls. Tight economy sees a tight belt!:thumbsup:


Much less waste direct from box to box , with conduit. This economy has me trying to put out more while using less.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> Really? That is interesting.
> 
> You do realize that a redundant grnd is only required in patient care areas (rooms) though, right?
> 
> Hospital grade devices are not required as you obviously know.


 Prior to work commencement I checked w/ my inspector and he wanted Hosp. grade in all the patient care rooms. The emt method w/ a ground conductor was an instant redundant ground. Standard spec grade was utilized in all other rooms. I prefer to do the right job.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Prior to work commencement I checked w/ my inspector and he wanted Hosp. grade in all the patient care rooms. The emt method w/ a ground conductor was an instant redundant ground. Standard spec grade was utilized in all other rooms. I prefer to do the right job.


My hat is off to you.

I tend to bid per NEC, Spec's and local requirements.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

All depends on where the money is -

Average price for a contractor in America is somewhere around $90 an hour.

Boxes, pipe, MC, and accessories are pretty cheap. 

All depends on whatever "the sharp pencil" says is the best method for the job at hand.

The time/dollar continuim keep us shooting for the best combination, with most profit, at a competitve rate. Sounds like a good paydirt job.:thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> No, you just love pipe!!!


 LOL...good one.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Good 1 :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> It took me two liesurly weeks to rough in 52 receptacles, 24 GFI's , 40 lay in fixtures , 16 hihats, and about 25 switches. I would have had to use redundant ground MC ( MC w/ xtra ground wire) $$$ a roll. There was no MC used on this job with the exception of the outside soffit hihats . EMT and scraps of 3/8 greenfield for whips. One 3/4 HR conduit can run six circuits, the math is two #10 nueterals, six #12 hot conductors, one #12 ground, the EMT acts as the second ground. The walls were easy to rough since all I had to do is snap a line at the 1900 box side KO levels and punch the studs to knock out 8 or ten receptacles and then a riser to the cieling to link to a HR run. Mind you I do most of the work myself, with my wife or a partner. It's nice to see a service panel with eight 3/4 EMT HRs instead of a harness of MC cables. The job was underbid because my competitor planned on non hosp grade receptacles and standard wiring. I still walked away with a decent profit.


Sounds good, but just for the sake of information, I don't think that the mechanical ground you would use with MC would be called redundant. Another thing, how do you get your wife to help?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Sounds good, but just for the sake of information, I don't think that the mechanical ground you would use with MC would be called redundant. Another thing, how do you get your wife to help?


The MC with dual grounding conductors, too much box fill. On a good note, when the economy was good and I was extreme busy my wife found the only way to spend time with me was to see me on my jobs, it wasn't long before she was wiring meterpans and wiring hi hats:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

My three yr old daughter has learned to spin the screws on devices w/ a screwdriver, she's next. Give it a few more yrs.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> The MC with dual grounding conductors, too much box fill. On a good note, when the economy was good and I was extreme busy my wife found the only way to spend time with me was to see me on my jobs, it wasn't long before she was wiring meterpans and wiring hi hats:thumbup:


Wow...I can't get my wife to hold a COOKING pan. It may be just as well; She uses the SMOKE DETECTOR as the kitchen timer.:blink:


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> The MC with dual grounding conductors, too much box fill. On a good note, when the economy was good and I was extreme busy my wife found the only way to spend time with me was to see me on my jobs, it wasn't long before she was wiring meterpans and wiring hi hats:thumbup:


Me thinks you have that a bit wrong. HCF cable does not have dual grounding conductors.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> Me thinks you have that a bit wrong. HCF cable does not have dual grounding conductors.


I could be wrong, the last time I worked medical prior to this job was 99'. I do remember the cable with two ground wires, green and green/yellow stripe.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I could be wrong, the last time I worked medical prior to this job was 99'. I do remember the cable with two ground wires, green and green/yellow stripe.


Nope. HCF looks just like MC only it is green. Even with regular MC at say 400/M compared to HCF at say 700/M you lost a ton on labor as well as material cost by wiring the whole place the way you tell.
JMHO.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> The MC with dual grounding conductors, too much box fill. On a good note, when the economy was good and I was extreme busy my wife found the only way to spend time with me was to see me on my jobs, it wasn't long before she was wiring meterpans and wiring hi hats:thumbup:


Do you mean MCAP that is hospital grade or are you talking about MC cable with an isolated grounding conductor?

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I could be wrong, the last time I worked medical prior to this job was 99'. I do remember the cable with two ground wires, green and green/yellow stripe.


That cable does not meet the requirements of 517.13(B).

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

milehiwire said:


> Nope. HCF looks just like MC only it is green. Even with regular MC at say 400/M compared to HCF at say 700/M you lost a ton on labor as well as material cost by wiring the whole place the way you tell.
> JMHO.


Correct, HCF cable is actually listed as AC cable not MC.

Chris


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> Nope. HCF looks just like MC only it is green. Even with regular MC at say 400/M compared to HCF at say 700/M you lost a ton on labor as well as material cost by wiring the whole place the way you tell.
> JMHO.


How could I have lost being my conduit runs incorporated lighting, and everything else. I felt it was faster to rough and pull conductors over fasten and strip MC. I'm the fastest run and bender in the east.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> I love bending pipe!!!


 You and me both.:thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Correct, HCF cable is actually listed as AC cable not MC.
> 
> Chris


 HCF , where the armor is one source of ground and the green is the other. I used about 700' 1/2 EMT and 300" 3'4 EMT, two cases of deep 1900's, connectors ,couplings and straps accordingly . 10 rolls of thhn, some with plenty left . I cannot see how this cost more than 10 rolls of hfc


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> HCF , where the armor is one source of ground and the green is the other. I used about 700' 1/2 EMT and 300" 3'4 EMT, two cases of deep 1900's, connectors ,couplings and straps accordingly . 10 rolls of thhn, some with plenty left . I cannot see how this cost more than 10 rolls of hfc


 It is called labor. The labor to install the conduit has to cost more.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

william1978 said:


> It is called labor. The labor to install the conduit has to cost more.


You are right.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> HCF , where the armor is one source of ground and the green is the other. I used about 700' 1/2 EMT and 300" 3'4 EMT, two cases of deep 1900's, connectors ,couplings and straps accordingly . 10 rolls of thhn, some with plenty left . I cannot see how this cost more than 10 rolls of hfc


I was just pointing out that HCF cable is NOT MC cable but in fact AC cable where the metal armor counts as an EGC.

Chris


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I was just pointing out that HCF cable is NOT MC cable but in fact AC cable where the metal armor counts as an EGC.
> 
> Chris


Good point but he did not have to wire the entire place in HCF or under 317. Where cute Mellisa takes calls can be wired with regular wiring methods.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Another thing...... 2#10 neutrals and 6 #12 hot wires in a 3/4" EMT...... no derating of the conductors?? 7-9 conductors #12 wire is only good for 17.5 amps.

oops... used the 75 degree column didnt have the derating program on my new laptop or my NEC handbook yet, as I need to call and have them give me a new "key code"


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Innovative said:


> Another thing...... 2#10 neutrals and 6 #12 hot wires in a 3/4" EMT...... no derating of the conductors?? 7-9 conductors #12 wire is only good for 17.5 amps.


 
Last time I went to school, 30 x 0.7 = 21.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Last time I went to school, 30 x 0.7 = 21.


 But, that was in the 1800's.:jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

william1978 said:


> But, that was in the 1800's.:jester:


Some things never change.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Some things never change.


 I know thats right.:laughing:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Innovative said:


> Another thing...... 2#10 neutrals and 6 #12 hot wires in a 3/4" EMT...... no derating of the conductors?? 7-9 conductors #12 wire is only good for 17.5 amps.


If this were the case, 17.5 is not a standard breaker size, so using 20a breakers would apply. "next higher standard breaker size"


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

btharmy said:


> If this were the case, 17.5 is not a standard breaker size, so using 20a breakers would apply. "next higher standard breaker size"


i agree.............................................................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Innovative said:


> Another thing...... 2#10 neutrals and 6 #12 hot wires in a 3/4" EMT...... no derating of the conductors?? 7-9 conductors #12 wire is only good for 17.5 amps.


I only read 6 current carrying conductors in his post.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I was just pointing out that HCF cable is NOT MC cable but in fact AC cable where the metal armor counts as an EGC.
> 
> Chris


FWIW, Southwire calls their HCF "*MC*", both in the old style with the thin bonding strip and the newer one with the 10gauge bare aluminum conductor that is supposed to be cut off.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Innovative said:


> Another thing...... 2#10 neutrals and 6 #12 hot wires in a 3/4" EMT...... no derating of the conductors?? 7-9 conductors #12 wire is only good for 17.5 amps.
> 
> oops... used the 75 degree column didnt have the derating program on my new laptop or my NEC handbook yet, as I need to call and have them give me a new "key code"


and 17.5 amps is still over 80% of the overcurrent device.Up to nine #12 conductors fused at 20 amps may be placed inside the same raceway.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

william1978 said:


> It is called labor. The labor to install the conduit has to cost more.


That always depends on who's installing it. I find it faster bending and strapping conduit thru a finished garage over stapling romex to the sheetrock in the corner. Some electricians are gifted with the bender, others not. I personally have been bending conduit since I was 12 years old, If I were sending helpers out to do a mechanics job , I can see labor and waste being up.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> That always depends on who's installing it. I find it faster bending and strapping conduit thru a finished garage over stapling romex to the sheetrock in the corner. Some electricians are gifted with the bender, others not. I personally have been bending conduit since I was 12 years old, If I were sending helpers out to do a mechanics job , I can see labor and waste being up.


 I too am gifted with the bender, McLovin' it!!!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've been poking on a calculator for 10 minutes now, and I feel pretty good about saying that there's no way in hell you have any net savings using EMT on a healthcare job over HCFC. MAYBE a little at ganged switch boxes for a 3/4" tip up to a 4-square above the ceiling, but that's about it. Still gotta buy EMT and pay for the labor to bend it. More fittings if you're going horizontal through the studs, unless you're the type of guy that does a tip up at every box.

Shockdoc, you sure propose some strange installation methods. I recall your "fold over" method from the other day, to have no splices in receptacle boxes when wiring with romex. I think it just makes you feel better to do something weird or out of the ordinary. Run some numbers on your installation methods and see for yourself if you're saving any money or not. I don't really think you are.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I've been poking on a calculator for 10 minutes now, and I feel pretty good about saying that there's no way in hell you have any net savings using EMT on a healthcare job over HCFC. MAYBE a little at ganged switch boxes for a 3/4" tip up to a 4-square above the ceiling, but that's about it. Still gotta buy EMT and pay for the labor to bend it. More fittings if you're going horizontal through the studs, unless you're the type of guy that does a tip up at every box.


Fittings? two ss connectors and possibly one coupling . I do my own labor, your'e from PA, I can see why you feel the way you do, I have not seen anyone in that NE corridor who can man a bender during my five years of living up there. In PA things are done a simpleton kind of way. Sorry, I have to disagree with you.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I've been poking on a calculator for 10 minutes now, and I feel pretty good about saying that there's no way in hell you have any net savings using EMT on a healthcare job over HCFC. MAYBE a little at ganged switch boxes for a 3/4" tip up to a 4-square above the ceiling, but that's about it. Still gotta buy EMT and pay for the labor to bend it. More fittings if you're going horizontal through the studs, unless you're the type of guy that does a tip up at every box.
> 
> Shockdoc, you sure propose some strange installation methods. I recall your "fold over" method from the other day, to have no splices in receptacle boxes when wiring with romex. I think it just makes you feel better to do something weird or out of the ordinary. Run some numbers on your installation methods and see for yourself if you're saving any money or not. I don't really think you are.


You might call it strange since your'e from PA, I don't like breaking my wires, I'm an old union spirit , I can pull a whole circuit through several boxes w/o having to pigtail anything. I'm the kind that does not use the device as a feed thru, everything either gets looped or pigtailed.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Fittings? two ss connectors and possibly one coupling . I do my own labor, your'e from PA, I can see why you feel the way you do, I have not seen anyone in that NE corridor who can man a bender during my five years of living up there. In PA things are done a simpleton kind of way. Sorry, I have to disagree with you.


If you're that fast with a bender, you must be exceptionally slow with MC. Logic would have it, that if you're fast with a bender, you should also be fast at MC. Right? No matter the skill level, MC (or, HCFC in this case) is necessarily always faster than EMT. 

Oh, by the way, you must not have been around too many guys if you couldn't find anyone in the northeast who can bend pipe with competancy. When I hear sweeping generalizations, like you just made, I tend to discount much or all of everything else you say. In the matter of EMT vs HCFC in a doctor's office, I think I have the math to prove you're all wet.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

sparks134 said:


> I too am gifted with the bender, McLovin' it!!!


You can see the angle and deduction without practically picking up a tape measure. Started bending pipe as a kid and then learned from some pretty good old timers in my late teens. I pipe out all my commercial work with the exception of a recent one where my suppl house bills went through the roof from the amount of mc used. I seen a lot of conduit work in PA by others, I can see why Mr. shunk avoids that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Uh, conduit work quality suddenly gets shoddy when you cross the state line? Interesting. Must have something to do with the Earth's gravitational pull. Okey-dokey.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> You might call it strange since your'e from PA, I don't like breaking my wires, I'm an old union spirit , I can pull a whole circuit through several boxes w/o having to pigtail anything. I'm the kind that does not use the device as a feed thru, everything either gets looped or pigtailed.


:laughing: That comment made me laugh out loud.

As if what part of the world you are from has any bearing on pipe bending abilities.

Take any estimating format or real life material cost/labor for conduit VS cable and I will bet dollars to donuts that you are all wet.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah, well... my bender goes to 11. :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

btharmy said:


> If this were the case, 17.5 is not a standard breaker size, so using 20a breakers would apply. "next higher standard breaker size"


Keep 240.4(B)(1) in mind.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> That always depends on who's installing it. I find it faster bending and strapping conduit thru a finished garage over stapling romex to the sheetrock in the corner. Some electricians are gifted with the bender, others not. I personally have been bending conduit since I was 12 years old, If I were sending helpers out to do a mechanics job , I can see labor and waste being up.





MDShunk said:


> Yeah, well... my bender goes to 11. :laughing:


 When I bend pipe my bender shoots flames :donatello:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

what is the percentage difference on labor units between 1000 mc and 1000 emt?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Was gonna say something, never mind.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Forgery said:


> FWIW, Southwire calls their HCF "*MC*", both in the old style with the thin bonding strip and the newer one with the 10gauge bare aluminum conductor that is supposed to be cut off.


This is from a southwire publication showing their HCF cables. One is AC cable the other MCap
These are what meets 517.13


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Keep 240.4(B)(1) in mind.


Good call "JohnH0906", thanks.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

milehiwire said:


> :laughing: That comment made me laugh out loud.
> 
> As if what part of the world you are from has any bearing on pipe bending abilities.
> 
> Take any estimating format or real life material cost/labor for conduit VS cable and I will bet dollars to donuts that you are all wet.


There's the difference , I don't run a shop, I don't have employees, it's a family business and we split the profits. Walk away with $10,000 for three weeks labor, not bad to me.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I apologize for the comments towards PA residents, after residing in stroudsburg for five years and taking on jobs in Monroe, Pike and Wayne Counties, I had not seen anyone installation to code. Type UF wire in the @ Howard Johnsons, Type SEU #2al fused @ 200amps and run through Kelleys Resort to sub panels, basically I have seen more substandard work in that region than any I have ever visited before.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

In the classic words of Captain O'Hagen, "I'll believe ya when me s*** turns purple and smells of rainbow sherbet." :laughing:

Why do people stagger into Internet forums and brag about how great they are? Aren't there fishing shows on cable anymore?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> what is the percentage difference on labor units between 1000 mc and 1000 emt?


You will get much further with emt. you are loosing 24" of cable at every box plus the waste of going up, over and across. I can get alot more points wired w/ 1000 ft of emt in less time than with 1000ft of mc.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> ..... One 3/4 HR conduit can run six circuits, the math is two #10 nueterals, six #12 hot conductors, one #12 ground......
> 
> Shockdoc,
> The way I read this is you have 2 sets of 208 WYE. Is this correct?
> ...


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> You will get much further with emt. you are loosing 24" of cable at every box plus the waste of going up, over and across. I can get alot more points wired w/ 1000 ft of emt in less time than with 1000ft of mc.


_"you are loosing 24" of cable at every box"_

Why? How does wiring with MC cause you to loose anything at any box? 

_"plus the waste of going up, over and across."_

Why would you have to go "up, over and across" with MC but not pipe? You can go directly across with MC the same way as you do with pipe.

The fact is that 1,000' of MC will get you just as far as 1,000' of pipe and thhn. The only difference is that MC is faster and will save the contractor a considerable amount of money.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

EJPHI said:


> Shockdoc said:
> 
> 
> > ..... One 3/4 HR conduit can run six circuits, the math is two #10 nueterals, six #12 hot conductors, one #12 ground......
> ...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> _"you are loosing 24" of cable at every box"_
> 
> Why? How does wiring with MC cause you to loose anything at any box?
> 
> ...


I halfway agree with you, if I sold the job and had employees execute the work in my absence of course tpe HFC and MC would be cheaper and more profittable in labor. Your employees are not purchasing the material therefore a little extra at each location can only be more of a comfort to them and more of a loss for the boss. My method enters and exits receptacle boxes only on the sides and runs direct outlet height between outlets. I pull multi circuits if neccessary through the same conduits. MC's require different runs for instance I have two office spaces w/ a 3/4 run to the panel, I need a ckt for a copier, another for another item and a general ckt . You just pulled three runs of cable back to your source and traveled 7 to 8 feet up the wall to the ceiling. Like I said plenty of times before, I'm of of those electricians who prefers to do the install myself, spent years upon years as a kid installing conduit through warehouses. This method is profitable for those who know conduit and can see the job done before they are even started. There is no way I could ever motivate employees to do an install of this nature in my absense.Anyway, just trying to help the little guy.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

I spent a LOT of time in hospitals. We always ran HCF for regular power and pipe for emergency. This gives a direct comparison of the two methods. 

I'm good with pipe, very good. I started bending pipe my first week of my first year as an apprentice, within a month the journeymen were complaining because the foreman had me on my own piping the school and making them look like they were in slow motion. On the other hand, I haven't run much MC. 

Knowing that, I still was able to rough in the HCF much faster than the pipe *every time*. There is no comparison. 

I don't know if there is much reason to continue arguing this. You say that it's cheaper for you to run pipe, everyone else in the world says that you are wrong.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> I spent a LOT of time in hospitals. We always ran HCF for regular power and pipe for emergency. This gives a direct comparison of the two methods.
> 
> I'm good with pipe, very good. I started bending pipe my first week of my first year as an apprentice, within a month the journeymen were complaining because the foreman had me on my own piping the school and making them look like they were in slow motion. On the other hand, I haven't run much MC.
> 
> ...


With me it's all about the material, thats where I save money. I don't count the labor since I do 88% of it myself with speed.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> With me it's all about the material, thats where I save money. I don't count the labor since I do 88% of it myself with speed.


It's still extra time you are spending on the job when you could have finished 3 days earlier and started another job.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> With me it's all about the material, thats where I save money. I don't count the labor since I do 88% of it myself with speed.


How can you not count the labor... even if it's you doing the labor? 

Say you paid yourself a wage.
Say you paid yourself the lowly wage of $20.00 per hour.
Say the job took three extra days @ eight and 1/2 hours per day.
Say that = $480.00

After all of that, you really think you're going to have $480 worth of mc cable waste? Even then, in those most impossible of circumstances, it's still a wash. Plus you haven't used a single sawzall blade.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> It's still extra time you are spending on the job when you could have finished 3 days earlier and started another job.


The jobs are not out there like that anymore, An extra won't kill me.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> The jobs are not out there like that anymore, An extra won't kill me.


Wouldn't you rather do something else with that time? I mean, measuring and bending and cutting pipe all day is fun... but come on man.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> How can you not count the labor... even if it's you doing the labor?
> 
> Say you paid yourself a wage.
> Say you paid yourself the lowly wage of $20.00 per hour.
> ...


My contractors appreciate the conduit work, it speaks for itself. I get plenty of recommendations from it and others take pictures of it . A GC of mine sold a residential addition where the customer( a retired union man) requested I pipe out a wood framed structure after viewing the GC's photos , that was extreme and time consuming. I have learned to push ENT for those applications, I found its a lifesaver when the construction calls for spayed foam insulation and customer makes changes.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> The jobs are not out there like that anymore, An extra won't kill me.


Well that's a lot different line of thinking. 

At the beginning you said pipe was faster than MC, you also said things such as:



Shockdoc said:


> I would recommend if anyone is bidding a medical, place of assembly or restaurant and you are quick with your bender you might want to consider this method.





Shockdoc said:


> I felt it was faster to rough and pull conductors over fasten and strip MC. I'm the fastest run and bender in the east.





Shockdoc said:


> That always depends on who's installing it. I find it faster bending and strapping conduit thru a finished garage over stapling romex to the sheetrock in the corner. Some electricians are gifted with the bender, others not.


Now it seems as if you are admitting that it's not as fast, that you simply don't care about the extra labor because you don't have a full book of jobs.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Wouldn't you rather do something else with that time? I mean, measuring and bending and cutting pipe all day is fun... but come on man.


A demanding wife and four kids,,,a day at work is a walk in the park.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> My contractors appreciate the conduit work, it speaks for itself. I get plenty of recommendations from it and others take pictures of it .


LOL. Can you show us pics of these masterpieces you piped? Cause I thought we were talking about roughing walls running pipe directly from box to box. I'd LOVE to see how special your work looks (for the few days before the drywall goes up).


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> A demanding wife and four kids,,,a day at work is a walk in the park.


How 'bout an actual day walking in a park... literally.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> Well that's a lot different line of thinking.
> 
> At the beginning you said pipe was faster than MC, you also said things such as:
> 
> ...


It went fast for me, or what I considered fast. I'm not here for a pissing contest. I've done my share of mc roughs for retail and office and verywell might do so again depending on the budget, timeframe and construction of the job.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> LOL. Can you show us pics of these masterpieces you piped? Cause I thought we were talking about roughing walls running pipe directly from box to box. I'd LOVE to see how special your work looks (for the few days before the drywall goes up).


 To me its just a job, not a materpiece or anything special. I don't take pics personally but I'm sure within a few days I could request one and scan it for you. I live in MC country since most every electrical contractor sells the job and hands the blueprints over to a crew. Conduit workmanship always carries potential in the way of less future snaking and running. You really need not be so cynical, I'm sure your work looks good too.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> You really need not be so cynical


Sorry, I'm only an hour from Stroudsburg so your earlier remarks kinda hurt my feelings 

Speaking of PA, I need to get out to the Walmart to buy s'more ammo. Maybe I'll stop at Dunkelberger's too.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> Sorry, I'm only an hour from Stroudsburg so your earlier remarks kinda hurt my feelings
> 
> Speaking of PA, I need to get out to the Walmart to buy s'more ammo. Maybe I'll stop at Dunkelberger's too.


Sorry once again , but you'll have to admit, there are some real cheesballs in that area calling themselves electricians. I kinda miss PA but not for the work, got no where to shoot my guns out here,been tempted to use a local liberal for practice a few times.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Sorry once again , but you'll have to admit, there are some real cheesballs in that area calling themselves electricians. I kinda miss PA but not for the work, got no where to shoot my guns out here,been tempted to use a local liberal for practice a few times.


Now you're just being "happy".
:no:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Sorry once again , but you'll have to admit, there are some real cheesballs in that area calling themselves electricians.


Yeah, especially Tom Hartmann.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I suggest you traded your time for cheaper but more labor intensive material, and you're completely devaluing the additional time it took to pipe, however proficient you are at pipe work. 

I suggest a better method would have been hybrid - EMT from the panel(s) dropping off at stratigic locations where homeruns are landed would have been quicker and very little waste. But then again, if time is not a factor here, it can't be calculated.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Forgery said:


> Yeah, especially Tom Hartmann.


Agreed, yep.


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