# Wye Delta Motor on drive 12 leads only labelled 1-6



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Probably double delta so t1 on one winding wont have conductivity to the other t1. Should still ring out like 2 six lead motors.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Picture of the name plate would help as there are some weird motors that are 2 isolated motors in one frame and they may not be the same speed.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

What voltage you plan to hook it up?

That is possibitly you have double delta connection motor which I have see it once a while.

Once you post the voltage and we will go from there. and if you see dual voltage just let us know few of us have trick up the sleeve with it.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> What voltage you plan to hook it up?
> 
> That is possibitly you have double delta connection motor which I have see it once a while.
> 
> Once you post the voltage and we will go from there. and if you see dual voltage just let us know few of us have trick up the sleeve with it.


480, it's a single voltage motor. i will post nameplate in a minute


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

gpop said:


> Probably double delta so t1 on one winding wont have conductivity to the other t1. Should still ring out like 2 six lead motors.


it does, so parallel the two sets of windings(double delta)?


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

gpop said:


> Picture of the name plate would help as there are some weird motors that are 2 isolated motors in one frame and they may not be the same speed.


https://www.baldorvip.com/servlet/p...agram=X&language=E&matnr=EM44352T-4&vkorg=bec

heres a link to the motor info as well


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Weird as the spec show its a 6 lead. Can you call baldor


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

gpop said:


> Weird as the spec show its a 6 lead. Can you call baldor


first thing i did, they said to hook it up how i would call paralleling the two sets of windings. the problem i had with that answer is the guy didn't seem to know what he was talking about and i fed him that answer and he just confirmed it was right, he seemed like a salesman/engineer if you've ran into that type before. i'll let you know how it turns out, lol. i'll probably use a dlo on the windings before and see if they are all same resistance.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Wiresmith said:


> first thing i did, they said to hook it up how i would call paralleling the two sets of windings. the problem i had with that answer is the guy didn't seem to know what he was talking about and i fed him that answer and he just confirmed it was right, he seemed like a salesman/engineer if you've ran into that type before. i'll let you know how it turns out, lol. i'll probably use a dlo on the windings before and see if they are all same resistance.


Its not all that strange to have a single voltage 12 lead motor that ends up being wired as a double Y start or double delta run in the higher hp range. 
Its just odd that they marked the wires using 1-6 twice rather than a standard 1-12 pattern.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> 480, it's a single voltage motor. i will post nameplate in a minute





Wiresmith said:


> it does, so parallel the two sets of windings(double delta)?





gpop said:


> Weird as the spec show its a 6 lead. Can you call baldor


I looked at the specs too and Wiresmith which way you have set up for starting mode ? direct on line or wye delta system or VSD ? 

I did see the specs it did mention 12 leads but IMO it was not marked correct. 

I think John Valdes may know a trick or two on this one. 

but for VSD or direct on line start just hook up in run mode as you see on the diagram and yes that is double delta. in run mode.

Wiresmith ., I am not sure if you have three conductors or six conductors comming from contractor or MMC so let us know that one too as well. 
Leads:6#1 (02 per group) that what it say on spec paper.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

gpop said:


> Its not all that strange to have a single voltage 12 lead motor that ends up being wired as a double Y start or double delta run in the higher hp range.
> Its just odd that they marked the wires using 1-6 twice rather than a standard 1-12 pattern.


Yuh little odd but I think someone goof up on the marking for start run mode and in run mode it is true double delta but during start one winding stay delta and other winding set is in wye format.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

You have a 6 lead motor with 12 leads coming out. Connect it in the delta config to the drive.

What is the HP. Seems they used two leads for one? Your picture is a six lead motor.

Twist the connections together and ohm each leg of the delta. If they are the same, connect it.

Is this this a factory motor? A motor shop could have doubled up on each lead.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

The problem with the double delta idea is if I have two T1's, two T2's, etc., and I try to use it as a double delta how do I figure out which one is let's say the "A" delta and which is the "B" delta? You can't without ohming everything out. Typically if you have two T1's, two T2's, etc., that just means you have two conductors per connection, not two separate circuits. This one is seriously mislabeled. But not that unusual...we have a customer that routinely gets confused with 12 vs. 6 lead motors but some of their motors are big time head scratchers.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

paulengr said:


> The problem with the double delta idea is if I have two T1's, two T2's, etc., and I try to use it as a double delta how do I figure out which one is let's say the "A" delta and which is the "B" delta? You can't without ohming everything out. Typically if you have two T1's, two T2's, etc., that just means you have two conductors per connection, not two separate circuits. This one is seriously mislabeled. But not that unusual...we have a customer that routinely gets confused with 12 vs. 6 lead motors but some of their motors are big time head scratchers.


Wouldnt it ohm out as a single delta if the leads were just doubled to reduce there size.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> You have a 6 lead motor with 12 leads coming out. Connect it in the delta config to the drive.
> 
> What is the HP. Seems they used two leads for one? Your picture is a six lead motor.
> 
> ...


John ., I read the specs and it say 350 HP motor. that is the HP size of this one one total of 12 tails of #1 conductors comming out of the motor. ( as I read the specs on that)


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

paulengr said:


> The problem with the double delta idea is if I have two T1's, two T2's, etc., and I try to use it as a double delta how do I figure out which one is let's say the "A" delta and which is the "B" delta? You can't without ohming everything out. Typically if you have two T1's, two T2's, etc., that just means you have two conductors per connection, not two separate circuits. This one is seriously mislabeled. But not that unusual...we have a customer that routinely gets confused with 12 vs. 6 lead motors but some of their motors are big time head scratchers.


I have see that once a while like that set up and the last motor I got few months back it was double delta but they marked very nice what they did stamped T1A and T1B then T2A and T2B and so on to make it easier to indentify the connection due it is was instering to get it running correctly but I did reconfreaged to straight double delta and use the VSD and that solve the starting issues on it.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

gpop said:


> Wouldnt it ohm out as a single delta if the leads were just doubled to reduce there size.



Yes. In the shop the biggest leads we put on a motor is 4/0. After that we just do 2, 3, 4...leads off the rings and unless the manufacturer has something else we label T1a, T1b, etc. Thats pretty typical these days starting somewhere around 100 HP or larger.

Usually a true twelve lead is a “universal” motor. It’s dual voltage and every coil comes out with separate leads so you can wire it 230 or 460, wye or delta (for wye-delta starting). The diagram is one of the few NOT in the EASA book but you can google it easily. Westinghouse lately has been supplying most of their new motors in 12 lead format so we’ve gotten used to sending out the diagram. More than one customer though asks me to come out and wire it up or fix it for them especially if it’s a wye delta starter. It’s funny because almost everybody has no problems with the 9 lead motors that are almost industry standard. Usually the issue is either they cut off all the labels so it takes an hour of measurements to relabel, or it’s an old wye delta starter and the pneumatic timer went bad or they get the wire numbers mixed up with an old diagram. The normal customers are so used to 9 lead motors they know to just look for the diagram inside the peckerhead. You just get a call about what “start” and “run” mean. This is the NORMAL case. Whether it’s double delta or just double leaded really doesn’t matter because they wire up the same regardless of the internals unless you’re trying to run on one set of coils only which is not the case with a drive (3 lead) or a wye-delta starter (6 lead).

But double delta with no a/b markings? Your motor shop must be idiots. What a pain because now you don’t know which coil is which either. So does T1 “a” go to the coil next to T2 “a” or T2 “b”? You will have to map everything out with a voltage source and your meter to check phasing, coil relations, etc., same as when somebody cuts all the labels off. Fastest way if you can get it off without tearing up the bearing is to take off the end bell so you can see the actual connections and then reinstall or replace the bearing. I would reject the motor and send it back if you can. Spec out one that is NEMA MG-1 compliant from now on. That has standards for labeling the leads. If it was our shop we’d make the winder go to the customers site and redo it correctly.




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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> I looked at the specs too and Wiresmith which way you have set up for starting mode ? direct on line or wye delta system or VSD ?
> 
> I did see the specs it did mention 12 leads but IMO it was not marked correct.
> 
> ...


stating with vsd, with motor configured in delta

its only getting wired to a drive like a normal motor, ABC conductors, no wye start delta run starter or anything funny


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

when i ring t1 to the other t1 they read open and the same for the other leads as well.

one set of t1 and t4 ring closed together and the other set read closed together and same for other leads as well just like the diagram shows for what leads are the ends of what windings, it's like there are 6 windings in there, 2 sets.


t1 and t1 are not directly connected internally and same for the other same numbered leads.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

is it common to run a motor continuously as double delta(parallel)? and not just using it for starting. this is being run completely off a new powerflex ASD.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

paulengr said:


> Your motor shop must be idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


straight from manufacturer and there are several of them


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Wiresmith said:


> when i ring t1 to the other t1 they read open and the same for the other leads as well.
> 
> one set of t1 and t4 ring closed together and the other set read closed together and same for other leads as well just like the diagram shows for what leads are the ends of what windings, it's like there are 6 windings in there, 2 sets.




That’s what you have. If it’s going to a wye-delta starter or a VFD then you’re good to go regardless of the lack of correct markings. But if you were trying to use the single deltas you’d need the numbering fixed.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

paulengr said:


> That’s what you have. If it’s going to a wye-delta starter or a VFD then you’re good to go regardless of the lack of correct markings. But if you were trying to use the single deltas you’d need the numbering fixed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


is it common and okay to run both sets of windings continuously(what i would call paralleling)? it will be run off VFD


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

That motor is designed for across-the-line starting, Y - ∆ starting or part-winding start. 

If using a VFD, both T1s and both T6s are one line. Both T2s and both T4s and another line. Both T3s and both T5s are the 3rd line. 

If the motor is 200HP, in effect, there are 2 - 100HP motors inside the frame. Each has its own set of leads brought out. For part-winding start, you would energize one set then after a second or two, energize the other set. 

For Y-∆ starting, both T1s, T2s and T3s are energized and both sets of T4, T5 and T6 are connected together to make the Y connection. After a few seconds, the start contractor is de-energized and the run contractor will connect both T4s to both TT2s, both T5s to both T3s and both T6s to both T1s. This will make the ∆ connection. 

There are basically 2 reasons for parallel leads, the most common is because one lead would be large while 2 would be smaller. 

The other reason is to facilitate part-winding starting.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> is it common and okay to run both sets of windings continuously(what i would call paralleling)? it will be run off VFD


Yes, in fact, this is the only way to connect it for a VFD.


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

thank you all very much


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Wiresmith said:


> stating with vsd, with motor configured in delta
> 
> its only getting wired to a drive like a normal motor, ABC conductors, no wye start delta run starter or anything funny


Just leave it on conventail double delta and you will be fine there. 

see the nameplate for running (delta ) connection and you are good to go.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

micromind said:


> Yes, in fact, this is the only way to connect it for a VFD.




To a typical VFD. Not on inside delta drives.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

micromind said:


> The other reason is to facilitate part-winding starting.


I have never seen a part winding start. I have read about it and understand the concept and how its connected just never seen one.

Is that a old technology used to save a starter (2 instead of 3) or is this still common in some places?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

gpop said:


> I have never seen a part winding start. I have read about it and understand the concept and how its connected just never seen one.
> 
> Is that a old technology used to save a starter (2 instead of 3) or is this still common in some places?


The part winding start system been around for a quite a while and yuh I have ran into once a while and yes it have two starters and they are timed delayed for couple seconds before second one kick in.

It work fine for low to med intera loads but very high intera loads best use autotranfomer or vsd to start it 

And yes there is a time limit for starting on part winding mode. but for reversing part winding you will have 4 starters in there.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

micromind said:


> If using a VFD, both T1s and both T6s are one line. Both T2s and both T4s and another line. Both T3s and both T5s are the 3rd line.



Exactly.


Wiresmith, if you're nervous about trying it this way, just remember, it's on a VFD. The VFD will stop anything bad from happening and it'll just fault....trust me.:devil3:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

gpop said:


> I have never seen a part winding start. I have read about it and understand the concept and how its connected just never seen one.
> 
> Is that a old technology used to save a starter (2 instead of 3) or is this still common in some places?


The only place I've sen it is close-coupled centrifugal pumps. 

The reason being that with only one winding energized, the torque is low plus it can stay in start for only a couple of seconds. 

But you're right, there are only 2 contractors and each is sized at half the HP. Unlike the other starting systems that use 3 contractors, they do not need to be interlocked. 

Typically if a motor is designed for part-winding start, it'll be single voltage and the leads are T1, T2, T3, T7, T8 and T9.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

paulengr said:


> To a typical VFD. Not on inside delta drives.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've never seen a VFD using inside the delta but I have seen drawings for it with soft-starts. 

Never connected one that way though.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

https://www.baldor.com/catalog/M44352T-4#tab="drawings"

Literature and then page 2-5


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

micromind said:


> I've never seen a VFD using inside the delta but I have seen drawings for it with soft-starts.
> 
> Never connected one that way though.


Biggest reason for inside delta is trying to push voltage limits. I've always debated about inside delta on a wound rotor or synchronous secondary but never had a "play" budget to try it.

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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

micromind said:


> I've never seen a VFD using inside the delta but I have seen drawings for it with soft-starts.
> 
> Never connected one that way though.


 "Inside the Delta" only applies to soft starters. There is no way to do that with a VFD.


Inside the Delta is different from playing with using Wye or Delta windings on dual voltage motors in order to extend the speed range. In that arrangement if you have an IEC motor that is 400Y, 230D, you can connect the motor in Delta, then using a 400V drive connected to a 400V supply, you program the drive to reach 230V at 50Hz, then you can continue to over speed the motor to 86.6Hz (33% over speed) without losing torque, because the V/Hz ratio remains correct for the motor; 230/50 = 4.6V/Hz, 400/86.6 = 4.61 V/Hz, so torque is 100%. But this is not INSIDE of the Delta windings, it's just connected in Delta.


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