# Generac ats



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Hello 

A costumer bought a 22kw unit. Came with an ats panel. Which normally is cake. He insists on this set up. 

The house is a monster 400 amp service. Tandem 200amp panels. The costumer is insisting on using an ats down stairs in his sub panel. The main panels are in the garage. Complete opposite side of the unit. 

My question is has anyone ever used a ats on a subpanel?


Also the ats is 200 amp rated


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Lots of factors to consider. Normally these are surface mounted units, though I suppose you could recess them. Are you going to load shed some circuits? That might make me consider moving it closer to the panels to be fed, otherwise I'd rather put it as close to the generator as possible to avoid running a long generator feed.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Panel to feed is in the basement. It's a sub


----------



## josh5879 (Sep 21, 2009)

What's the big deal?


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Mike, we need more info.

There are two 200's in garage, one of which is feeding the sub in the basement, correct?

It sounds like the customer just wants to back up the circuits in the basement sub. 

So run controls and feeder to basement.

Otherwise you'd be hook'n up two ATS's for the garage panels.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Lots of factors to consider. Normally these are surface mounted units, though I suppose you could recess them. Are you going to load shed some circuits? That might make me consider moving it closer to the panels to be fed, otherwise I'd rather put it as close to the generator as possible to avoid running a long generator feed.


I had to install one of the prewired ATS. There was not any room where the customer wanted it. There was a subpanel already there beside the main panel. I took out the subpanel and put the ATS in it's place. These panels are deeper than a regular panel (thus the reason they are surface mount). It stuck out of the wall a couple of inches. But it looked better than mounting it on an adjacent wall and running conduit to it.

Other than the long generator feed, the OP will be better off with the ATS located where the panel is that it is backing up. All the branch circuits are already there.

@ Mike500s: I have used an ATS on a subpanel, no problem. Is the ATS one of the "easy transfer" prewired models?


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I am finishing up one of the new 10 circuit ones. These come with flush covers unlike the older ones.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Sorry it's an ats, idk the model off of my head. The panel is the style that you ties in the service. Between the main breaker and meter. 

Making the main into a sub pretty much. 

It is a service rated panel. I would be thing it into a sun panel down stairs


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

i doubt it. If it came packaged with the 22kW it's most likely the 200A service switch.

edit: sorry this was supposed to be after post 6.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Mike500s said:


> I would be thing it into a sun panel down stairs


:laughing:

Does this mean you will install it down stairs?

i'll ask again. Does the customer just want to back up the sub?


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Yeah I don't think any inspector will let a service switch feed a sub panel. Costumer bought everything. 

He'll be sending his service switch back for an eZ switch, best bet. Thoughts


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Yeah he wants the sub panel in basement. 

Two 200 mains in garage


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Sorry for my crappy grammar. Dduving


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ok, 200amp service rated. RTSY....etc. Its ok to use that between your main panel and a subpanel if you seperate the neutral and ground in the transfer switch. Like I said if you are using load shedding, its usually easier if its near the panel to interrupt the loads, but your feeder and control wiring are longer.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Not sure whether the easy switches are compatible with the 22kw due to the wire size they come with. You can also buy non service rated switches and 150amp flavors too. Don't know what amperage panel or size of feeders you have. 200amp switch will work with anything 200amp and under. The breaker is now nothing more than a disconnnect.


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Like nrp said, you sure can use the switch ahead of a sub.

Here's an idea. Use the switch he has and install it near the generator & 200's at garage. Controls and gen feeder over to it, and use the existing sub panel feed as line & load.

Just a thought.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd rather go for that if the loads at the sub were within the 22kw's ability without load shed. Not dragging all the extra wiring is a good thing. I'd even look at a dual switch setup if the load was realistic or shedding would work.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Like nrp said, you sure can use the switch ahead of a sub.
> 
> Here's an idea. Use the switch he has and install it near the generator & 200's at garage. Controls and gen feeder over to it, and use the existing sub panel feed as line & load.
> 
> Just a thought.


That's what I was talking about if you mean:
Take the existing feeder to the sub off the breaker in the main panel 
Run new feeder from breaker in main panel to the ATS as utility power and remove the neutral/ground bonding
Feed from genny to ATS (along with control wiring)
Power out from ATS to existing sub location using the existing feeder to sub


----------



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> That's what I was talking about if you mean:
> Take the existing feeder to the sub off the breaker in the main panel
> Run new feeder from breaker in main panel to the ATS as utility power and remove the neutral/ground bonding
> Feed from genny to ATS (along with control wiring)
> Power out from ATS to existing sub location using the existing feeder to sub



Exactly.:thumbsup:

i'll even shorten it up, lectrician style. Cut the ATS into the subs feeder.:thumbup:

i wouldn't fart around with returning the switch for another. Just work with what the customer already has. Bing bang, done, move on.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

3xdad said:


> Exactly.:thumbsup:
> 
> i'll even shorten it up, lectrician style. Cut the ATS into the subs feeder.:thumbup:


But that doesn't make me/you sound nearly as smart!:laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

GTFM (get the %$#*(&^ money) !!


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Can't use the service rated ats on a sub. 
Will void ul listing. Gking to look into Siemens genready panel


----------



## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

What size breaker is feeding the sub panel in the basement, I haven't seen that mentioned at all. If it is a 200 amp breaker then yes you can use the rtsy200a3 to feed the sub panel. If it is smaller then no. If you are going to get a different switch, just get a rtsr100a3 or whatever size breaker you have and put it in line to the sub panel. It's still a smart switch but has no breaker in it as it is not service rated. The gen-ready panels are not all that great in my opinion. You are limited to 30 circuits on the generator and that's if you use all slim line breakers.


----------



## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

It is I over sized, how is this a problem?
If it was a thirty amp sub panel fused as such ,would it not work the same?


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Where does it say using a service rated xfer panel voids ul listing? The bond is removable, other than having an extra breaker in there, it does the same thing. If you are feeding a subpanel from the main, the cable is protected by the breaker in the main panel, the 200amp breaker makes no difference. What am I missing?


----------



## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> Where does it say using a service rated xfer panel voids ul listing? The bond is removable, other than having an extra breaker in there, it does the same thing. If you are feeding a subpanel from the main, the cable is protected by the breaker in the main panel, the 200amp breaker makes no difference. What am I missing?


Ya, now that I think about it, their is absolutely no reason the 200 amp breaker couldn't be used. Everything is protected by the breaker in the main feeding the sub panel. Sounds to me like another generator getting installed that somebody trained by generac will be fixing in short order.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Why not use it as long as you have the space? Wonder what happens with warranty if you use something registered as part of a bundle with another installation. Lot of that on Ebay. Speaking about the transfer switch that is.


----------



## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> Why not use it as long as you have the space? Wonder what happens with warranty if you use something registered as part of a bundle with another installation. Lot of that on Ebay. Speaking about the transfer switch that is.


Nothing. Last year I picked up 10 14 kW's (I'm a 2 hour drive from the factory so I just go pick my stuff up). 5 were 14 circuit EZ switches and 5 were smart switches. My guys unboxed it all and then just grabbed generators and switches as needed with no attention to whether they went together or not. Fortunately no problems with warranties since.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

I know it could work. Inspector won't pass it. Gonna get a non service rated switch


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Why won't he pass it?


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

He's a pain in the ass. He said it'll void warranty and ul listing. 

I showed him the removal bond. He said it's service rated and won't pass


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Mike500s said:


> He's a pain in the ass. He said it'll void warranty and ul listing.
> 
> I showed him the removal bond. He said it's service rated and won't pass


Unless it says "suitable for service equipment only" he is wrong.
It probably just says "suitable for service equipment when used as permitted by the NEC ......"


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Yeah I wish I had the exact model off hand


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Mike500s said:


> Yeah I wish I had the exact model off hand


What town.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Mahwah


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Can't be more obvious than this:


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

This is likely what it came with:


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Mike500s said:


> Mahwah


Forget it. John Lane will not budge at all. You just gotta bite the bullet and change it out.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Mike500s said:


> Mahwah


Only thing you can try is to call the dca.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Yes that would be the Inspector. He does 4 towns 

Yes, you know how he is, I'm gonna have to order a different switch. 

I know I could make it work, he stated he will not pass it,


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What a fool (the inspector). Has he seen the inside of it, what I am showing you? It's perfectly legal. It's meant to be removed if so desired. It doesn't state service entrance only, just says suitable.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It's no different than buying a service rated disconnect for a piece of equipment and not using the green screw.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> What a fool (the inspector). Has he seen the inside of it, what I am showing you? It's perfectly legal. It's meant to be removed if so desired. It doesn't state service entrance only, just says suitable.


You don't understand the mentality of this inspector. He's the hardest in the state to deal with. It's HIS way or the highway. He takes 90.4 to a whole other level. He made me change the GFI's that came pre installed on HVAC equipment because they weren't WR rated.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You don't understand the mentality of this inspector. He's the hardest in the state to deal with. It's HIS way or the highway. He takes 90.4 to a whole other level. He made me change the GFI's that came pre installed on HVAC equipment because they weren't WR rated.


Then ya'll better not install any load centers as sub panels, since just about all of them are listed as suitable for use as service equipment. Dude sounds like a real jackarse.


----------



## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

If you were a generac dealer you would be able to call bob Cramer at generac and he would take care of your inspector issues. His job is purely to make inspectors understand the code and how it applies to their products. Unless this inspector can show it in writing that he does not allow service rated equipment in non-service applications, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

Very, very often Bob and his team will fly right out and meet with the inspector and show him/her how they are wrong.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

piette said:


> If you were a generac dealer you would be able to call bob Cramer at generac and he would take care of your inspector issues. His job is purely to make inspectors understand the code and how it applies to their products. Unless this inspector can show it in writing that he does not allow service rated equipment in non-service applications, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Very, very often Bob and his team will fly right out and meet with the inspector and show him/her how they are wrong.


Unfortunately the code provides him with every leg he needs to stand on.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Everything electricjoenj says is true 
He doesn't want to hear it. Yes I showed him the removal bond. He still said no.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

When they start making up rules, its time for them to find another job. Being tough about being correct is one thing, this is another. He needs to be removed.


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

He views it has service rated equipment. Won't look at if any other way. I'll have to order a non rated panel. 

Or remove my bond and change cover stickers lol😬


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Sorry man, but as long as you get paid for it. It could be worse.


----------



## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike500s said:


> He views it has service rated equipment. Won't look at if any other way. I'll have to order a non rated panel.
> 
> Or remove my bond and change cover stickers lol😬


RTSR200A3 if you need 200 amp non-service rated smart switch. Replace the 200 with 100 or 150 for those amperages. Exact same as a service rated without the main breaker in it.

Jeff


----------



## Mike500s (Feb 20, 2014)

Inspector actually approved it 😍


----------



## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You don't understand the mentality of this inspector. He's the hardest in the state to deal with. It's HIS way or the highway. He takes 90.4 to a whole other level. He made me change the GFI's that came pre installed on HVAC equipment because they weren't WR rated.


 that right there is messing up a ul listing if there was one ever. I would make it my personal quest/duty/revenge to re educated or have that inspector removed. I've dealt with a few asshats and they always have a boss and that boss has a boss, run it up the chain! I had to get a senator involved over a licensing issue and won the argument, correct is correct.


----------



## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Unfortunately the code provides him with every leg he needs to stand on.


Not quite. Ahj's have a good amount of say but when the fats in the fire nec can and will supersede the ahj's if you push the issue hard and far enough.


----------

