# Explain the perks of being a union trademen please!



## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

I am currently a 5th year apprentice in a non-union apprenticeship. Can someone explain the perks of being a union trademen? I've worked with some of the biggest non-union electrical contractors in California so I know what they offer, but I have no clue what the union shops offer.

I was recently laid off and am reviewing my options for my future. The biggest gripe I have about the trades is that it is so ruthless. You do not feel like you have a home, where you genuniely feel the employer cares about you. I understand the trade is a cutthroat trade, but at some point there needs to be a point in ones career where its steady, does it not? 

What avenues does the Union offer? Does the hall offer all kinds of training?

Thank you.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Higher wages for one. Better benefits packages, to include health insurance, retirement, annuities, pension, and if you get laid off you go to the hall and sign the book and get a new job (if there is no line. I should add that I've never had to wait, then again I never have to go to the hall). 

I consider myself one of the lucky few. I'm not a big union pusher. If someone likes their non-union job and is happy, then by all means they should stay where they are. To each is own.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Higher wages for one. Better benefits packages, to include health insurance, retirement, annuities, pension, and if you get laid off you go to the hall and sign the book and get a new job (if there is no line. I should add that I've never had to wait, then again I never have to go to the hall).
> quote]
> 
> And yes the hall offers training in addition to the benefits that are listed above.
> ...


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

Which local MDVR, if you don't mind me asking?


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

steelersman said:


> *Higher wages for one. Better benefits packages, to include health insurance, retirement, annuities, pension, and if you get laid off you go to the hall and sign the book and get a new job* (if there is no line. I should add that I've never had to wait, then again I never have to go to the hall).
> 
> I consider myself one of the lucky few. I'm not a big union pusher. If someone likes their non-union job and is happy, then by all means they should stay where they are. To each is own.


Right now as an apprentice I get everything similar to the Union in California. But I know as I become a Journeymen the wage does change depending on a private/PW job. Now as a Union tradesmen your wage never changes correct? The company I use to work for offered almost better benefits than the union, but as you go from private to PW your wage changes significantly.

I have heard that since I am "rat" trained that if transfer over to the union I will get ragged on, etc, has anyone done that or experienced it?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

First off I have been in the trade 39 years and can say I never thought about anything close to ruthless, regarding my profession.

I have seen some knucklehead apprentices abused verbally. I do not do this and do not tolerate it from my employees. But I also feel this hard on the apprentices weeds out the weak from the strong. 


I assume you are in construction? 
In 39 years of some construction and mostly service I have been laid off twice (actually fired) and both times I landed on my feet once missing one day of work, the second time starting my own shop (25 years ago I started a union shop).

I would not work at a job I thought was ruthless. Might be time for a change maybe IT?

Generally Better pay that follows you from job to job.
Better retirement that follows you as long as you work for union shops.
Paid holidays (our local)
health and welfare.
Raises every 6 months whether you deserve them or not.
In addition my men negotiate with me for above union pay, vacations and holidays
Generally decent additionally training classes from the hall.

From an employee stand point I feel being union (if there is no BS going with the membership) is the best road to take.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

And, of course, there are also negatives. It's your decision to weigh the negatives vs. the positives and see how you feel at the end.

Just some of the negatives include donating huge amounts of money to a political party that you might not agree with (and may be in the process of trying to change this country drastically). They say you could ask for your donations back, but in reality that is career suicide. 
Being a union member means you are part of a socialist society. For example, you work the whole year (2,000+ hours) and your contractor contributes $25K in your name for health and welfare, but your buddy only works 1,600 hours and gets the same healthcare as you. Where did all your extra money go? To the other "Brothers". 
Union members could be downright childish. I have no problem with protesting, if someone wants to stand somewhere with a sign to get their message out, I don't care. I do care when those people walk as slow as they can back and forth (1 step forward, 1 step back) in front of vehicles trying to go to work. I've been -forced- to go to pickets where this is done, it's almost sickening to see IMO, it's something I would expect from a 4 year old. 

There are other negatives, but there are many positives as well. I choose to be union and a big part of the was wage and the fact that I am in a mostly union state. I take the good with the bad and a grin and bear it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> Just some of the negatives include donating huge amounts of money to a political party that you might not agree with (and may be in the process of trying to change this country drastically). They say you could ask for your donations back, but in reality that is career suicide.


I know of one union member that requested his portion back. He was one of the highest union members in a management position for one of the larger companies in DC. (He had some clout) I often wonder if his kids that are in the local paid for his request for reimbursement after he retired.




> Being a union member means you are part of a socialist society. For example, you work the whole year (2,000+ hours) and your contractor contributes $25K in your name for health and welfare, but your buddy only works 1,600 hours and gets the same healthcare as you. Where did all your extra money go? To the other "Brothers".


YEP



> Union members could be downright childish. I have no problem with protesting, if someone wants to stand somewhere with a sign to get their message out, I don't care. I do care when those people walk as slow as they can back and forth (1 step forward, 1 step back) in front of vehicles trying to go to work. I've been -forced- to go to pickets where this is done, it's almost sickening to see IMO, it's something I would expect from a 4 year old.


Thankfully I never had to picket as a small contractor forced picketing by my employees was a major PIA for me and cost me money as I paid my men when they wasted their time doing picketing.



> There are other negatives, but there are many positives as well. I choose to be union and a big part of the was wage and the fact that I am in a mostly union state. I take the good with the bad and a grin and bear it.


\


The good out weighs the negatives for an employee, for an employer???????


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> I've been -forced- to go to pickets where this is done, it's almost sickening to see IMO, it's something I would expect from a 4 year old.
> 
> There are other negatives, but there are many positives as well. I choose to be union and a big part of the was wage and the fact that I am in a mostly union state. I take the good with the bad and a grin and bear it.


A union state?? Where is this? Beats the hell out of me. There are no union states, once you leave the city, except for the big time jobs, you are in union hostile country. There are metropolitan areas where the majority of work is union, but thats only in 'union' states, and it is not every city in that state. 


Who held a gun to your head and forced you to picket a job???? WTF, are you one of the very few people who goes to union meetings? If you're such a republican, that means you are a company man, and probably sat on the hook while work was slow, so, no doubt, you probably don't even know the organizers down at the hall from Joe Blow on the street.

You smell of B.S. to high heaven.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Paid holidays (our local)


Only if you get licensed in the (District of Corruption) D.C.

Or if you can negotiate it out of your bossman as I have done. :thumbup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> Just some of the negatives include donating huge amounts of money to a political party that you might not agree with (and may be in the process of trying to change this country drastically). They say you could ask for your donations back, but in reality that is career suicide.
> it.


In my local we have the option to "not" donate the extra .05/hour to the PAC. :thumbup:


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

...upon completion of your apprenticeship/organizing in/testing in and upon receiving your JW "ticket", you are part of a labor pool. You can go out with different companies (making top scale) learning all manner of different disciplines (industrial, high voltage, fire alarm, data/low voltage, traffic signalling, yadda yadda ...) as companies can vary greatly in their specialties. Or you can stay with the same company if they're digging you. The obvious peaks and valleys happen, 'cause its construction, but if the valley gets too low and long, your ticket allows you to make top rate wherever the work is (state licensing is on you). Big advantage to you, as there's no floating tons of resumes, probationary periods where you make peanuts till you "prove" yourself, etc. Your ticket means you passed the requirements a local put in front of you, and that is recognized throughout the IBEW.
No doubt about it, you can do very very well non-union, if you're driven to learn the industry and disciplined with respect to your retirement/savings/health care... but I like the options a ticket gives me.
A lot of guys can't handle the "paying dues" thing... I certainly do a triple-take when I see the YTD DUES PAID line on my taxes. But at any time, I can take a class on fiber optics, get CPR certified, get trained for OSHA 10/30, take a refresher in motor control, etc.,and I didn't pay jack for my apprenticeship. Guess you gotta pay to play.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Only if you get licensed in the (District of Corruption) D.C.
> 
> Or if you can negotiate it out of your bossman as I have done. :thumbup:


Not at my shop all men get holidays including apprentices and helpers


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> A union state?? Where is this? Beats the hell out of me. There are no union states, once you leave the city, except for the big time jobs, you are in union hostile country. There are metropolitan areas where the majority of work is union, but thats only in 'union' states, and it is not every city in that state.
> 
> 
> > Do not sound so balntly STUPID you know what he met.
> ...


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

We too can opt out of the PAC contribution. I don't agree with all of the agenda, but the larger good, I do agree with and pay gladly. 

I don't want to start a big gun debate, but NRA membership is much the same. You may or may not agree with EVERYTHING they push for, but you still contribute. NOT A GUN ISSUE, JUST AN EXAMPLE


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Not at my shop all men get holidays including apprentices and helpers


Your shop is the exception though and not the rule. Very nice of you to go above and beyond nonetheless.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

The problem I am having is that the Electrical Union were I live is not strong. The strongest union is in the Bay Area(san Francisco). Does anyone know how long it takes to get onto the books in the SF region? What locals are around there?

Does anyone think I will take alot of flak from being taught as a 'Rat' and converting to be a union electrician? 

I am trying to way the positives v. negatives through what everyone has told me. I have been thinking for a long time about going union but I am not quite sure how/ if its right for me.

Also with the training they offer, lets say you work in a local that is quite far from where you live and there is a closer hall to you, can you take those classes you want at the closer hall or do you have to take it at your local hall?


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> The good out weighs the negatives for an employee, for an employer???????


You know a hell of a lot more about that side of it than me. What reasons are you a union employer? 

I would make the assumption that there is more union work in some areas. Also maybe you have a higher profit margin when bidding against other high priced union contractors since the job is going to be union anyway. But that's just my amateur guessing.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> A union state?? Where is this? Beats the hell out of me. There are no union states, once you leave the city, except for the big time jobs, you are in union hostile country. There are metropolitan areas where the majority of work is union, but thats only in 'union' states, and it is not every city in that state.


 New Jersey.


> Who held a gun to your head and forced you to picket a job????


 I never said they used a firearm. There are other ways of forcing someone to do something, specifically with threats to one's livelihood. 


> If you're such a republican,


 Who said I was a Republican?!?!?! If I had to toe a party line for some strange reason, it would most likely be Libertarian, but I don't subscribe to any party.



> You smell of B.S. to high heaven.


In what way? Your entire post is made up of accusations with no merit. Please explain yourself like an adult, thanks.


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## BadSplice (Sep 5, 2009)

steelersman said:


> In my local we have the option to "not" donate the extra .05/hour to the PAC. :thumbup:


What about he other ones like COPA?

From what I've seen and heard, IBEW locals like to be able to say that they have full enrollment in these donation plans. They even go as far as to sign you up automatically and give you no choice to opt out. If you choose not to donate, you have to go in at the end and get the money that you paid back.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

BadSplice said:


> What about he other ones like COPA?
> 
> From what I've seen and heard, IBEW locals like to be able to say that they have full enrollment in these donation plans. They even go as far as to sign you up automatically and give you no choice to opt out. If you choose not to donate, you have to go in at the end and get the money that you paid back.


I don't know what COPA is or what it's about, but I do know that what I spoke of above is something that they sometimes will try to sneak by you if you don't pay attention. It's one of two cards that they try to make you sign. I forget what the first card is, although I do remember it was something that was necessary, but not the second one, which was for the PAC.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

BadSplice said:


> You know a hell of a lot more about that side of it than me. What reasons are you a union employer?


Three reasons

1. I was a union worker when I started my company
2. Early on a majority of my customers were union shops C&P telephone and several management companies.
3. Because it is what I feel is best for my men.



> I would make the assumption that there is more union work in some areas. Also maybe you have a higher profit margin when bidding against other high priced union contractors since the job is going to be union anyway. But that's just my amateur guessing.



My profits are lower that an open shop bidding the same work, they have lower over head. Against a union contractor it is even Steven.


I feel unions members would be better served if the union was more open and did not lock step support just one party.

There are several issues unions need to address I have stated what I fell these were before.

Mis treating open shop men.
Lock step with the dems.
damaging equipment on open shop jobs
salting.

All lead to those out side the union lookin at the union as a bunch of thugs. The union needs to be the good guy not a freaking thug.

PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

qckrun said:


> The problem I am having is that the Electrical Union were I live is not strong. The strongest union is in the Bay Area(san Francisco). Does anyone know how long it takes to get onto the books in the SF region? What locals are around there?
> 
> Does anyone think I will take alot of flak from being taught as a 'Rat' and converting to be a union electrician?
> 
> ...


-these are all questions better put forth to a business agent or organizer in your immediate area and surrounding locals. Take notes on their answers so you can review them at your leisure. Jurisdictional maps can be viewed @ the IBEW website. I can't see why you couldn't take continuing education classes at a local you're working out of, like if your ticket's from somewhere else (called traveling)... you're paying working dues to that local while employed there. They'd probably be happy to have the enrollment, honestly. First priority would be getting the ticket, though. Your prior experience may allow you to test into say 3rd year of apprenticeship... or they may want you to work at residential rate for a period while you take your upgrade classes (anywhere from 1-6 years in my area).. you might be looking at a pay cut, bro. However, keep in mind that many times this is on a case-by-case basis.. results may vary. These are mechanisms they use to see who's committed to the program, nothing personal. 

...and yeah you might get guys who get quiet around you if they know the route you took. The vast majority of hands are understanding (if not organized themselves) though. Some of the best cats I ever worked with were organized, including one of my best buds. I think it takes a lot of courage, and it's the kind of door that if it opens, it might not happen again... like a lot of things in life.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

qckrun said:


> The problem I am having is that the Electrical Union were I live is not strong. The strongest union is in the Bay Area(san Francisco). Does anyone know how long it takes to get onto the books in the SF region? What locals are around there?
> 
> Does anyone think I will take alot of flak from being taught as a 'Rat' and converting to be a union electrician?
> 
> ...


Are you in the bay area? if so then IMO you would be best off applying to the many locals. You probably will not get in as a jw but can negotiate into a higher pay scale and possibly test through some school. This is the route I went(almost finished in the ABC school) but I did start apprentice 1st year, got pay period and got a healthy pay jump(from non union) from day one.
Work is slow right now, but local 6(SF) is anticipating a ton of hospital work next year that they will not be able to fill, which will be good for everyone.
Here are the Bay Area locals- 6(SF),332(santa clara),595(Alameda),180(Napa I think),234(Monterey),302(Contra Costa)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

For those that tested into the apprenticeship. You went to ABC school or were a young mechanic. Did you start at the yearly rate you tested in at or did you come in at the wage you were making at the time in open shops?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

I first had to get my state J-card, then I was able to take the AJ test and passed and got AJ scale right out of the gate.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm glad I work in a local where we have good contractors, a hall that supports everyone, and no political BS. 970 is the best!!!


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

RUSSIAN said:


> Are you in the bay area? if so then IMO you would be best off applying to the many locals. You probably will not get in as a jw but can negotiate into a higher pay scale and possibly test through some school. This is the route I went(almost finished in the ABC school) but I did start apprentice 1st year, got pay period and got a healthy pay jump(from non union) from day one.
> Work is slow right now, but local 6(SF) is anticipating a ton of hospital work next year that they will not be able to fill, which will be good for everyone.
> Here are the Bay Area locals- 6(SF),332(santa clara),595(Alameda),180(Napa I think),234(Monterey),302(Contra Costa)


I live near Sacramento. Reason why I was wondering about the Bay Area Locals is, A) they pay more, B) the Union is stronger in the bay than in the Valley.

I've just come to realize if I join the union i would want it to be in the Bay simply because the Valley union is so dang behind, and the valley is definately not union strong. The only thing Union strong in the valley is the HVAC and framing.

So if I turn out of my apprenticeship ( WECA-IEC) [www.weca-iec.org] and get my jman card, you telling me I may have to go back into the apprenticeship in the union? Does the Union have different tests for being a jman? Is this to weed out those 'so called' jman that pass the test but do not know a lick about anything in the field?

I'm going into my 5th year at the beginnig of October, 700hours away from my card. So if I were to join the union I wouldnt be able to get on as a jman, even though in my opinion my apprenticeship is exactly like the union, its basically a mirror image of the union apprenticeship just not the union.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I could imagine California being cut throat, doesn't sound like your state is doing well at all.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> I could imagine California being cut throat, doesn't sound like your state is doing well at all.


 
Yeah, its pretty tough when your the 7th largest economy in the "WORLD" Just think what happens with States that can only compete within their own country:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Yeah, its pretty tough when your the 7th largest economy in the "WORLD" Just think what happens with States that can only compete within their own country:whistling2:


 
And bankrupt to boot something to be proud of.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> And bankrupt to boot something to be proud of.


Yeah this state is a joke... I'm seriously considering joining the union now. I go to school for my apprenticeship in a week, and after that if I cannot find any work, I'm going to go talk to the local union, 340 to be exact. See what they have to say.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

brian john said:


> And bankrupt to boot something to be proud of.


Their not bankupt yet:thumbsup: And at least 10 of the other top ten States along with China and Japan hope they don't


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

qckrun said:


> Yeah this state is a joke... I'm seriously considering joining the union now. I go to school for my apprenticeship in a week, and after that if I cannot find any work, I'm going to go talk to the local union, 340 to be exact. See what they have to say.


 what do you want them to say ? :whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

qckrun said:


> I'm going to go talk to the local union, 340 to be exact. See what they have to say.


Wow. That's going to take quite a long time to talk to everyone.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

BadSplice said:


> What about he other ones like COPA?
> 
> From what I've seen and heard, IBEW locals like to be able to say that they have full enrollment in these donation plans. They even go as far as to sign you up automatically and give you no choice to opt out. If you choose not to donate, you have to go in at the end and get the money that you paid back.


It is C.O.P.E (Committee On Political Education) not COPA. Only about 1/2 of the locals participate. An average of $10.00 per member is considered outstanding, About 1 in 10 give the .05 per hour donation.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Wow. That's going to take quite a long time to talk to everyone.


Wow.... to literally think I would talk to everyone is beyond me. 

Do people on this forum have a problem that a 'rat' is considering going union? I thought all you guys wanted everyone to be a union man... what happened to that?


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

qckrun said:


> Wow.... to literally think I would talk to everyone is beyond me.
> 
> Do people on this forum have a problem that a 'rat' is considering going union? I thought all you guys wanted everyone to be a union man... what happened to that?


WOW, you don't read the forum much do ya? Calm down, chill. Just because this is the union topic area of the board dosen't mean everyone here is in the union. Nor does it mean we don't have a sense of humor:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

qckrun said:


> Wow.... to literally think I would talk to everyone is beyond me.
> 
> Do people on this forum have a problem that a 'rat' is considering going union? I thought all you guys wanted everyone to be a union man... what happened to that?


 
Do but I do have an issue with the term RAT. Shows a mentality of a pin head.


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