# Ungrounded Bathroom outlets



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a client which conducting business as a motel. The health dept routinely inspects the place and had violated them on two units having no ground at the bathroom gfi outlet. Due to an extremely shoddy renovation sometime back in the 80's the wiring has lost it's ground. The NEC allows the use of a GFI receptacle to alleviate the lack of grounding at receptacles, does that follow for bathroom receptacles? If so i need to memo it for their inspector, I try to make my visits there as brief as possible, and am in no mood to run a ground wire.:whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I would say no. That exception is for two wire circuits. So if the bath recep has a ground wire you will have to talk to the ahj to see if they will let you run a ground wire to it like a two wire circuit or repair it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I would say no. That exception is for two wire circuits. So if the bath recep has a ground wire you will have to talk to the ahj to see if they will let you run a ground wire to it like a two wire circuit or repair it.


I'm considering the unspeakable......a tiny piece of wire jumping neutrals and grounds. Someone needs to invent a one way diode to create grounding.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm considering the unspeakable......a tiny piece of wire jumping neutrals and grounds. Someone needs to invent a one way diode to create grounding.


Why not just hit the copper water line... we are hacking it are we not?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm considering the unspeakable......a tiny piece of wire jumping neutrals and grounds. Someone needs to invent a one way diode to create grounding.





Thats one thing I will not do.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Why not just hit the copper water line... we are hacking it are we not?


Instead of calling an electrician when they just recently retiled the bathroom and having it rewired properly, they let the who knows whats do everything. I suppose a #12 to a waterpipe clamp underneath the sink would qualify as an improvement. And since the guest make holes in the walls i guess it wouldn't be a problem if the electrician did also.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Instead of calling an electrician when they just recently retiled the bathroom and having it rewired properly, they let the who knows whats do everything. I suppose a #12 to a waterpipe clamp underneath the sink would qualify as an improvement. And since the guest make holes in the walls i guess it wouldn't be a problem if the electrician did also.


Better than notin' or a N-G jumper. As long as the water pipe is bonded...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Better than notin' or a N-G jumper. As long as the water pipe is bonded...


This place is ancient, I'm sure it's a complete copper/brass system. the second one however is in block so i'm looking at wiremold over tile. I should just sell them new 20 amp circuits but ask yourself, do you really want to spend alot of time at a place where people have od'd ,prostitutes(some cute ones) are a workin, and the crackheads are a scopin and the man is a watchin. I hate setting up major work in places like that, a couple years ago we did a major lighting revamp of the site and lot, someone stole my helpers cordless right under his nose.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> This place is ancient, the second one however is in block so i'm looking at wiremold over tile. I should just sell them new 20 amp circuits but ask yourself, do you really want to spend alot of time at a place where people have od'd ,prostitutes(some cute ones) are a workin, and the crackheads are a scopin and the man is a watchin. I hate setting up major work in places like that, a couple years ago we did a major lighting revamp of the site and lot, someone stole my helpers cordless right under his nose.


If I can have my CCW.  If the place is old what would be involved in adding the new circuits, I doubt it has a nice new service. I would do the very bare minimum, quick in and out.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm considering the unspeakable......a tiny piece of wire jumping neutrals and grounds. Someone needs to invent a one way diode to create grounding.


I've done it and I'm ashamed.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If I can have my CCW.  If the place is old what would be involved in adding the new circuits, I doubt it has a nice new service. I would do the very bare minimum, quick in and out.




But I would not violate the nec. Lawsuit waiting to happen if anything happens as a result of what you did.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> But I would not violate the nec. Lawsuit waiting to happen if anything happens as a result of what you did.


bare minimum = minimum NEC compliant, in my book.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If I can have my CCW.  If the place is old what would be involved in adding the new circuits, I doubt it has a nice new service. I would do the very bare minimum, quick in and out.


I refed the service 5 years ago going overhead after 2 out of three phases ug failed under the parkinglot, 4/0 alum directly buried. Hi leg panels with 20 amp breakers on old 14 rh bx, I personally am waiting for a good blaze to run out the riffraff and create some new construction. It's just amazing what some electrician did there and was actually proud enough to put his stickers on the panels. If you shine your light in the crawlspace you actually see the rats scurry back and forth.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> bare minimum = minimum NEC compliant, in my book.



:001_huh:


I'm just saying running a ground to the waterpipe to cover up a problem = bad business decision. I would either fix it right or walk away. JMO


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> But I would not violate the nec. Lawsuit waiting to happen if anything happens as a result of what you did.


That's true, I am leaving a paper trail. the waterpipe under the sink is the way to go. avoid the rats in the crawlspace and the whatevers in the attic.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I refed the service 5 years ago going overhead after 2 out of three phases ug failed under the parkinglot, 4/0 alum directly buried. Hi leg panels with 20 amp breakers on old 14 rh bx, I personally am waiting for a good blaze to run out the riffraff and create some new construction. It's just amazing what some electrician did there and was actually proud enough to put his stickers on the panels. If you shine your light in the crawlspace you actually see the rats scurry back and forth.


Sounds like a great place. Single or multi story? Could you lay some MC in the attic and stub down on the surface?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> :001_huh:
> 
> 
> I'm just saying running a ground to the waterpipe to cover up a problem = bad business decision. I would either fix it right or walk away. JMO


Can't walk away, I'm waiting for the big one.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> :001_huh:


Don't be giving me that look. :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> That's true, I am leaving a paper trail. the waterpipe under the sink is the way to go. avoid the rats in the crawlspace and the whatevers in the attic.




This would be a cash no invoice or nothing job.:whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Sounds like a great place. Single or multi story? Could you lay some MC in the attic and stub down on the surface?


Have you ever seen those old bungalow motels from the 20's where individual huts are spaced apart in a row. Now picture some hack contractor joining them together 
and creating a false facade on the front. Looks good from the roadway, real, real nightmare to work on, and that's not including the riffraff.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Have you ever seen those old bungalow motels from the 20's where individual huts are spaced apart in a row. Now picture some hack contractor joining them together
> and creating a false facade on the front. Looks good from the roadway, real, real nightmare to work on, and that's not including the riffraff.


Aw sh1t, that has to be a big, big, big cluster.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Aw sh1t, that has to be a big, big, big cluster.


I take the bad with the good, I was there as my first stop this morning doing lighting maintanance, some handy guy who lives there trying to barter his rent assumed that hps bulbs would work in mh fixtures, like eight of them. guess it didn't seem strange after the first one. Now I got some 150 hps bulbs i can sit on for a couple years.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I take the bad with the good, I was there as my first stop this morning doing lighting maintanance, some handy guy who lives there trying to barter his rent assumed that hps bulbs would work in mh fixtures, like eight of them. guess it didn't seem strange after the first one. Now I got some 150 hps bulbs i can sit on for a couple years.


Nice:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I have a client which conducting business as a motel. The health dept routinely inspects the place and had violated them on two units having no ground at the bathroom gfi outlet. Due to an extremely shoddy renovation sometime back in the 80's the wiring has lost it's ground. The NEC allows the use of a GFI receptacle to alleviate the lack of grounding at receptacles, does that follow for bathroom receptacles? If so i need to memo it for their inspector, I try to make my visits there as brief as possible, and am in no mood to run a ground wire.:whistling2:


Sounds as if you are saying that an egc is at the receptacle...right? If so look at the light fixture box and check if it originated from there and possibly re-connect.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Sounds as if you are saying that an egc is at the receptacle...right? If so look at the light fixture box and check if it originated from there and possibly re-connect.


If it were that easy but you did open my eyes on an easier fix, I can snake directly down from the vanity light to underneath the sink and background from there. thanks, guess i wasn't thinking outside the box today.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> If it were that easy but you did open my eyes on an easier fix, I can snake directly down from the vanity light to underneath the sink and background from there. thanks, guess i wasn't thinking outside the box today.


Glad I could help.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> This place is ancient, I'm sure it's a complete copper/brass system. the second one however is in block so i'm looking at wiremold over tile. I should just sell them new 20 amp circuits but ask yourself, do you really want to spend alot of time at a place where people have od'd ,prostitutes(some cute ones) are a workin, and the crackheads are a scopin and the man is a watchin. I hate setting up major work in places like that, a couple years ago we did a major lighting revamp of the site and lot, someone stole my helpers cordless right under his nose.


make sure you have your gun holster on your tool belt:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Glad I could help.


These problems are a result of unqualified idiots burying old bx to romex splices in the walls with moisture, rodent and overloading issues. Last years inspection landed one bathroom where the gfi box was hot. The feed originated somewhere from a buried splice that must have issues since disconnecting the nearest receptacle that fed the bathroom proved ok. I ended up reversing the polarity from that point on.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> make sure you have your gun holster on your tool belt:laughing:


Just the holster? :blink: :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Just the holster? :blink: :laughing:



Well yea.....the gun would be in my hand....:whistling2:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Just the holster? :blink: :laughing:


I can't get a carry permit in this state, my hammer is always in the hook around shady area's.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I can't get a carry permit in this state, my hammer is always in the hook around shady area's.


I don't need a carry permit if it is not concealed.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Just the holster? :blink: :laughing:


 and the best available side arm of course:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I don't need a carry permit if it is not concealed.


Anything smaller than a 12 ga is felony possesion in liberal NY. The union cops want us to call them to save us.
I do have quit a few goodies I purchased while living in PA, but were not at liberty to discuss that.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Anything smaller than a 12 ga is felony possesion in liberal NY. The union cops want us to call them to save us.
> I do have quit a few goodies I purchased while living in PA, but were not at liberty to discuss that.


Yeah, I know. A buddy of mine was arrested there. He had a permit for Kentucky, but it was not good enough.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Yeah, I know. A buddy of mine was arrested there. He had a permit for Kentucky, but it was not good enough.


 These pos cops arrested me for having an 18" length of 500 mcm w/ tape on it in the cab of my work truck, misdemeanor weapon possesion. Union police force can gothemselves. cost $1000 lawyer at the time for a jury trial


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> These pos cops arrested me for having an 18" length of 500 mcm w/ tape on it in the cab of my work truck, misdemeanor weapon possesion. Union police force can gothemselves. cost $1000 lawyer at the time for a jury trial


Is that what you were talking about in that other thread? Yeah that cop needs to be pistol whipped, might knock his brain back into place.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Is that what you were talking about in that other thread? Yeah that cop needs to be pistol whipped, might knock his brain back into place.


I'm not a fan of the Suffolk County PD, they are the worst of the worst, anything for OT at $75.00 an hour.:blink: They got a slogan called "collars for dollars". at the end of their shifts they lock people up on anything they can to get OT. I drive like a saint between 6am and 8 am, 10pm and 12 pm and 2pm to 4 pm.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm not a fan of the Suffolk County PD, they are the worst of the worst, anything for OT at $75.00 an hour.:blink:


If I was LE I would try to arrest as few people as possible, cuts down on paper work, but I guess slug cops don't think like that.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> These pos cops arrested me for having an 18" length of 500 mcm w/ tape on it in the cab of my work truck, misdemeanor weapon possesion. Union police force can gothemselves. cost $1000 lawyer at the time for a jury trial


Did the lawyer know about the 2nd amendment?
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If I was LE I would try to arrest as few people as possible, cuts down on paper work, but I guess slug cops don't think like that.


I couldn't arrest or ticket anybody for anything I'm guilty of. That would be hypocracy.:thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I couldn't arrest or ticket anybody for anything I'm guilty of. That would be hypocracy.:thumbup:


Well that too...


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

I bet the place is owneed by Indians.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I bet the place is owneed by Indians.


They are the cheapest if you price a job for a dollar they ask you to do the job for 10 cents


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

A bologna sammitch and a handjob is too expensive for them!


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> I bet the place is owneed by Indians.


Hassidics....they are not much better. Manager is Indian but he's OK


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