# Circuit Breaker Popped Off The Busbar



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

How do you know they were installed properly to begin with?


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## sk55 (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure they were installed correctly. In one case I wired the breaker up, and although I didn't install the breaker, it looked fully seated then.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

The homeowner tried to reset and pulled it off the bus. They then decided not to touch it anymore.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Seen that before Jerry.....hell, I've done that before. :laughing:


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## sk55 (Mar 23, 2015)

So you haven't seen a breaker just pop out? (I hadn't either!)

It is always possible that someone accidentally pulled it out when they tried to reset it. 

Thanks for sharing your ideas.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

How does a breaker "pop off" the buss while the cover is on the panel anyway? Is that even possible?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

probly not if its put together right:whistling2:


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## sk55 (Mar 23, 2015)

I really wished I had taken a picture. The circuit breaker was wedged against the dead front. Like I said, I had never seen this before and didn't think it was possible, but then it came up again at another site. 

I think mcclary's has it figured out. I highly suspect someone was trying to "help" and left the job half done before I was called, (and was too embarrassed to say so). I just thought it was weird that this happened twice recently and thought I'd check with you all about your experience.

Many thanks for the replies!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

sk55 said:


> I have had 2 calls recently (on different residential panels) where a circuit breaker had tripped and was found not clicked into the busbar. It was completely snapped into place prior. What could cause this?
> 
> Standard BR panel, both were on a 2 pole 20A circuit breaker.


I found the same thing. Both times the homeowner had tried to place the breaker in place...and screwed up.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

btharmy said:


> How does a breaker "pop off" the buss while the cover is on the panel anyway? Is that even possible?


I haven't ever popped one off with the cover on.

So........... either the breaker was not seated right to start with and came off when someone flipped it

Or someone had the cover off and flipped the handle and it popped off. That's pretty easy to do with the cover off.

I'm going with some "local homegrown wanna-be" thought he would take the cover off and check out why it tripped. Then flipped it off the stab! Then the rest of the story was left out!!!:whistling2:


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## sk55 (Mar 23, 2015)

Yep, I concur. Murphys law meets human nature!

Thanks for the responses!


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

If it's a Federal breaker, gravity is the culprit.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Depends on the manufacture.

Most likely is cover not fitting and
1. HO popped it off trying to rest the CB
2. Never installed properly
3. Junk panel or improperly tensioned bus connection on the CB
4. If the magnetic forces were sufficient due to the magnitude of the fault and one of the above (except the HO) this could happen. But this would be a stretch and I am sure one of the test performed by UL. But defective bus stabs loose fitting CB, does not trip per the TCC, close to the transformer/utility sub, ehhhh ??????


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## icon (Sep 11, 2013)

Standard BR- type breaker. If its an Eaton Cutler Hammer panel, then yes it is absolutely possible for the breaker to pop off the busbar with the cover in place. Seen it happen numerous times. The cover is so flimsy in the center. Dont feel special, not a fan of this brand.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How do you know they were installed properly to begin with?


Exactly. With the exception of FPE, all the brands I have encountered are firmly anchored down by a properly installed deadfront. Even those where the deadfront is off of the face of the breaker by any _*reasonable*_ gap will still keep the breaker from pulling off of the bus stabs far enough to break contact. The exception is GE with those tiny clips that connect to the bus.

So I'd like to see pics showing how a properly installed breaker and deadfront will allow the breaker to come off the bus stabs. :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Murray? They had a recall for breakers missing a pressure spring on the snaps. I could see those loosening up in time.


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## icon (Sep 11, 2013)

Seeing is believing!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

icon said:


> Seeing is believing!



Nice try, but the deadfront isn't installed correctly. :no:


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## icon (Sep 11, 2013)

So you are saying im a liar? Seen this many times. This is the poor quality of this panel. The deadfront is on 100%


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I bet I have done 50 S/C's for QO breakers falling off the buss. The QO system is one of the worst when it comes to their buss system.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Nice try, but the deadfront isn't installed correctly. :no:


Why be a drama queen. If you have something to say say it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If you have to rely on the deadfront something is messed up.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Im with 480, over looks of compared to the seated breakers.


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## sk55 (Mar 23, 2015)

Hi Icon,

Thank you for the pictures. That is exactly what it looked like when I showed up. Do you know what caused the breaker to do this? It seems like the breaker re-seated pretty snugly when I put it back in place and I just can't figure out why it would pop off.

Appreciate the posts!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Why be a drama queen. If you have something to say say it.


The deadfront isn't installed correctly.

Happy now, or is there something else you want to bîtch about?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

icon said:


> So you are saying im a liar? Seen this many times. This is the poor quality of this panel. The deadfront is on 100%


It's 100% on, but only 50% correctly.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I don't use CH BR panels so I'm not sure if this will work but maybe the panel guts were removed and not installed properly, causing the guts to be off center and the cover to not center up on the breakers like the picture shows. 
Just a theory.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> The deadfront isn't installed correctly.
> 
> Happy now, or is there something else you want to bîtch about?


Nope, not happy as well as not surprised with your comment. All can read your posts stating it is not installed correctly, most folks would follow up with what is specifically wrong with the install and how to correctly install the dead front.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

What does a dead front have to do with proper breaker installation. Do we have a mod saying that the dead front is responsible to hold the breaker in?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

sk 55, I haven't touched a BR panel in years but if you look at this photo I snapped off the internet. You will see the the breaker fits the hole with the "step" in the case fitting through the hole top and bottom. It looks like your cover has shifted. You may have to move the panel guts to get the cover to sit correctly, As I said I haven't touched a BR panel in years but it seems to me that the bus bar assembly could move back and forth a bit. You also may have a problem breaker that was not made for the panel like some GFCIs that is causing the cover to bulge and not set properly.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Nope, not happy as well as not surprised with your comment. All can read your posts stating it is not installed correctly, most folks would follow up with what is specifically wrong with the install and how to correctly install the dead front.



OK, here's what is specifically wrong with the way the cover is installed.

It's not lined up with the raised portions of the breakers. In the blue circle, there's a gap that shouldn't be there.

In the red circle, the cover is over part of the breaker is shouldn't be over.










With the cover shifted like this, it's installed incorrectly.

Is that specific enough?




sbrn33 said:


> What does a dead front have to do with proper breaker installation. Do we have a mod saying that the dead front is responsible to hold the breaker in?



No, we don't. We have a member putting words in someone else's posts.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

How do you know that the breakers are not off the buss? Plus what does the cover even have to do with the OP's post? Do you think the cove holds the breaker on the buss? 
Please be specific.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> How do you know that the breakers are not off the buss?


I never said I did. Nice try.



sbrn33 said:


> Plus what does the cover even have to do with the OP's post?


I'm not the only one mentioning the cover. Again, nice try.



sbrn33 said:


> Do you think the cove holds the breaker on the buss?


I have no idea what a cove is or what it has to do with breakers. Please respond with what a cove is, and please be specific.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I never said I did. Nice try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a mod you are being really odd. 
You have said multiple times that the cover is wrong. I have asked what this has to do with the breaker popping off the buss. Do you rely on the cover to hold the breaker on?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> For a mod you are being really odd.
> You have said multiple times that the cover is wrong. I have asked what this has to do with the breaker popping off the buss. Do you rely on the cover to hold the breaker on?



I've answered your questions. The fact that you can't answer mine means you're just trolling now.

I'm done here.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am not trolling. Plus you have not answered my question. Does the cover hold the breaker on the buss?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Seems like an easy question. why not answer?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I have no problem with the idea that a properly fit cover is part of the integral design of a panel and is part of breaker retention system. Why not?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I have no problem with the idea that a properly fit cover is part of the integral design of a panel and is part of breaker retention system. Why not?


Because the cover is not part of breaker retention.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Because the cover is not part of breaker retention.


You sure? A properly fit cover would make a breaker nearly impossible to "pop out". I'm not stating that it is the only thing but it is part of the complete system.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

drsparky said:


> You sure? A properly fit cover would make a breaker nearly impossible to "pop out". I'm not stating that it is the only thing but it is part of the complete system.


Your ****ing kidding right?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Your ****ing kidding right?


I know with FPE a properly fitting cover holds the CB in when turning off the CB and turns off CBs if you are not careful when removing the cover.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> Your ****ing kidding right?


No I'm not kidding. Why would that not be part of the design? The panel is never meant to be energized without the cover. The ends of the breakers are "stepped" the exact thickness of the dead fronts. Dead fronts could be made out of cheap thin plastic if they did not have a structural purpose.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bad Electrician said:


> I know with FPE a properly fitting cover holds the CB in when turning off the CB and turns off CBs if you are not careful when removing the cover.


Are we talking about FPE?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Are we talking about FPE?


Did I mention FPE in my post? YES.

I am DISCUSSING SNAP IN or PLUG IN type circuit breakers, is that OK? 

Seems you are on edge why the attitude?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33, knock off the attitude. Your questions have been answered, just because you didn't like the answers given does not entitle you to launch attacks.

480's post made it crystal clear:



> *It's not lined up with the raised portions of the breakers. In the blue circle, there's a gap that shouldn't be there.*
> 
> *In the red circle, the cover is over part of the breaker is shouldn't be over.*
> 
> ...


And as drsparky explained, " A properly fit cover would make a breaker nearly impossible to "pop out". I'm not stating that it is the only thing *but it is part of the complete system*. and: .... *The panel is never meant to be energized without the cover. The ends of the breakers are "stepped" the exact thickness of the dead fronts. Dead fronts could be made out of cheap thin plastic if they did not have a structural purpose.* "

A properly installed cover is most definitely part of the system to secure the breakers in place, and a _*properly installed*_ deadfront WILL make it impossible for the breakers to pop out of the bus stabs.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

OK MX, I apparently have an "attitude". You say they have answered my questions but to me it is all opinions. I understand you are OK with it but as a mod I would think you would ask for substantiation.
Any handyman can tell those breakers where not seated properly and the cover had nothing to do with it.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> I bet I have done 50 S/C's for QO breakers falling off the buss. The QO system is one of the worst when it comes to their buss system.


I can't say I have had any issues with QO's that I can remember.

What about this from my post earlier?



> Depends on the manufacture.
> 
> Most likely is cover not fitting and
> 1. HO popped it off trying to rest the CB
> ...


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> OK MX, I apparently have an "attitude". You say they have answered my questions but to me it is all opinions. I understand you are OK with it but as a mod *I would think you would ask for substantiation.*


30 years of experience and countless panel changes/upgrades and circuit add-ons, plus 480's picture provides plenty of substantiation, thanks.

Speaking of which you have yet to post any pictures supporting your position on this topic. :whistling2:



sbrn33 said:


> *Any handyman can tell those breakers where not seated properly and the cover had nothing to do with it.*


And any professional electrician knows damn well that the cover has everything to do with it. A properly seated cover will hold breakers down, always, every time. If the cover doesn't fit right as shown in 480's pic, then it is very obvious that either the cover is not installed correctly, the breakers aren't installed correctly, or both.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> OK MX, I apparently have an "attitude". You say they have answered my questions but to me it is all opinions. I understand you are OK with it but as a mod I would think you would ask for substantiation.
> Any handyman can tell those breakers where not seated properly and the cover had nothing to do with it.


 I don't think the panel cover is designed under normal circumstances to hold the CB's on the bus. But I do believe a improperly fitting cover can result in a breaker coming off the bus as I noted above.


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## kurt.annen (5 mo ago)

sk55 said:


> I really wished I had taken a picture. The circuit breaker was wedged against the dead front. Like I said, I had never seen this before and didn't think it was possible, but then it came up again at another site. I think mcclary's has it figured out. I highly suspect someone was trying to "help" and left the job half done before I was called, (and was too embarrassed to say so). I just thought it was weird that this happened twice recently and thought I'd check with you all about your experience. Many thanks for the replies!


 I had the same problem with the circuit breaker popping off the busbar. This must have happened when the circuit breaker tripped or failed. It turned out to be a failed circuit breaker. Replacing the circuit breaker solved the problem.


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