# Diliberate Breaker Tripping-



## Frasbee

- as a means to identify an outlet.

The foreman has been having me dead short outlets so that we can spot which breaker it's on because every outlet needs to be labeled in the Dialysis Clinic we're working on.

He's taught me to use a solid 12 gauge wire bent in a U shape, held by my lineman's, and pushed into the receptacle.

Sometimes I can't even tell I tripped it, other times there's smoke and black soot on the wire and the outlet.

I'm new to all of this ****, so what do I know, right? Still, little flags have been waving that this may not be the most ideal means to identify circuits...Feedback?

And if there's another way that isn't _too _time consuming, I'd appreciate the pass-along.

Late EDIT: We didn't trip _all_ the breakers, just a few that weren't showing up where we thought they should be.


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## JohnJ0906

Nothing like teaching an apprentice something stupid.... 



> I'm new to all of this ****, so what do I know, right? Still, little flags have been waving that this may not be the most ideal means to identify circuits...Feedback?


Almost any other way is better.
If the place is un-occupied, the old standby of having 1 man at the outlet, and another at the panel flipping breakers still works fine.

There are several products on the market that are not overly expensive for locating breakers, as well.


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## nap

Frasbee said:


> - as a means to identify an outlet.
> 
> The foreman has been having me dead short outlets so that we can spot which breaker it's on because every outlet needs to be labeled in the Dialysis Clinic we're working on.
> 
> He's taught me to use a solid 12 gauge wire bent in a U shape, held by my lineman's, and pushed into the receptacle.
> 
> Sometimes I can't even tell I tripped it, other times there's smoke and black soot on the wire and the outlet.
> 
> I'm new to all of this ****, so what do I know, right? Still, little flags have been waving that this may not be the most ideal means to identify circuits...Feedback?
> 
> And if there's another way that isn't _too _time consuming, I'd appreciate the pass-along.


 
what a brilliant method.(said with a sarcastic attitude

)


Not only does this make your company look like the most unprofessional bunch of yahoos out there, it is just plain stupid.

I think you should just keep it up though. Maybe you will learn something out of it.


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## dowmace

that is a bad idea, but I will say I made my own breaker tripper device with a resi plastic cut in box, a 20A switch, a cord cap, and about 5 feet of SO cord. Just put your hot on the line side of the switch and your neutral on the load side. now plug the contraption into your receptacle flip the switch and you trip the breaker. This is the WRONG way to find a breaker but it is quick and wont burn the face of the breaker. 

I do not condone this method of finding circuits please use at your own risk yada yada yada


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## 480sparky

This is so simple.....









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Prevents










Use the ammeter to find the circuit that has the amp readings that go up, down, up, down, up, down.....


To see what can happen using your method, check this thread out:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=1717


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## confident

I was once forced to try that method, although there were 4 panels, and I dead shorted a wire in a j-box.
Somehow I shorted out a computer....1500 dollar mistake
I will never try shorting a circuit to identify a breaker again


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## Frasbee

Yeah, we used to run down the panel calling back and forth, but work is finishing up and they hired 10 mexicans to finish painting/drywalling whom are constantly blasting their music.

The rest of the crew left, it's just me and the foreman, and they expected us to be done all this trouble shooting last week. So most of the time I'm the only one labeling the the outlets across 3 panels.

I used to run back and forth between the rooms and the panel, but it's just too time consuming, and there's been changes to their placement, so the prints aren't always accurate, which means the easiest way available to me _is_ tripping the breaker.

It's discouraging to work with this company. Too many times I've worked under the direction of somebody who tells me they're having me do things the wrong way, or 'not the best' way, simply to get it done fast. I've only worked under one guy who explains everything to me and shows me the right and wrong way of doing things (while having me _do_ it the right way.) They sent him off to a different project.


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## 480sparky

Frasbee said:


> .....It's discouraging to work with this company. Too many times I've worked under the direction of somebody who tells me they're having me do things the wrong way, or 'not the best' way, simply to get it done fast....


If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, you'll never have the time to do it right the second time.


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## dawgs

Tell your foreman and boss to trip it out themselves. You need a circuit tracer to do the job safely and be productive.


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## JohnJ0906

Frasbee said:


> Yeah, we used to run down the panel calling back and forth, but work is finishing up and they hired 10 mexicans to finish painting/drywalling whom are constantly blasting their music.


I like music, but if it interferes with work, off it goes. Period. No discussion.




> It's discouraging to work with this company. Too many times I've worked under the direction of somebody who tells me they're having me do things the wrong way, or 'not the best' way, simply to get it done fast. I've only worked under one guy who explains everything to me and shows me the right and wrong way of doing things (while having me _do_ it the right way.) They sent him off to a different project.


Fast is not necessarily wrong. However, in your case, it is wrong, and dangerous. You should refuse to do this. Yes, you might get fired, but you will be alive and in 1 piece when you find a better place to work.


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## a-bulb

Don't do this to a FPE breaker. http://www.snapdrive.net/files/507790/fpe.pdf


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## Frasbee

How discouraging...

Well, Monday is supposed to be our last day on that site, and the majority of the outlets have been marked. I'm not entirely sure what I'm gonna do about working for this company, I'm already looking elsewhere, and maybe into the Union.


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## RMELECTRIC_LA

*duhhhhhhhh!*

First tell the the mexicans to SHUT OFFO El MUSICO ! Better still thats how you can find your first breaker !When the damn clown music goes off !!!:stupid:Then try using a long extention cord and a work light at the panel. Very simple... pick a receptacle plug it in watch the light, when it goes off thats your breaker! :whistling2:


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## Frasbee

RMELECTRIC_LA said:


> First tell the the mexicans to SHUT OFFO El MUSICO ! Better still thats how you can find your first breaker !When the damn clown music goes off !!!:stupid:Then try using a long extention cord and a work light at the panel. Very simple... pick a receptacle plug it in watch the light, when it goes off thats your breaker! :whistling2:


Nah, I bought a "ticker". Makes life so much easier.


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## gilbequick

480sparky said:


> This is so simple.....
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> http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=1717


What's the blue thing for?


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## 480sparky

gilbequick said:


> What's the blue thing for?


To flash the bulb, so the amperage goes up & down so you can find the circuit at the panel with the ammeter.


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## randomkiller

Why not just plug the mexicans wanna be music player into an outlet that your trying to identify and then start flipping breakers, when it goes off you have the breaker. Then plug it into the next outlet to be labeled. Then once you have them all identified, take the neutral from that last circuit the radio is on and touch it to the next breaker down from the ungrounded conductor for the circuit and fix the radio permanently.


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## nap

RK's is the quickest, IF you are where you can hear the radio. Some jobs are just too big to do this. 

That is where 480's comes in. A bit slower but a brilliant idea. 

a larger current draw would make it easier and quicker as well. This is also one of the few times I believe an analog meter would also make it easier. A ticking needle would be less likely to be misinterpreted than a rolling number on a DMM.


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## Frasbee

randomkiller said:


> Why not just plug the mexicans wanna be music player into an outlet that your trying to identify and then start flipping breakers, when it goes off you have the breaker. Then plug it into the next outlet to be labeled. Then once you have them all identified, take the neutral from that last circuit the radio is on and touch it to the next breaker down from the ungrounded conductor for the circuit and fix the radio permanently.


Heh, it's funny you say that. We kept trying to identify this "mystery" outlet which should have been on the LB panel. Their radio was plugged into one of those outlets and we kept turning off their radio.

They eventually gave up turning it back on until we finished and moved elsewhere.


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## frenchelectrican

For me to try to trace some circuits what i useally do either take 500 w quatz or 1.5 Kw heater and put in alternating relay or simuair and cycle the load and it will show up on ampmeter [ digtail is ok with 1.5 KW heater but for quatz i use anlog meter to read the peak and valley's ]

Merci,Marc


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## chenley

I bought myself a buzzer to trace circuits down while working alone. It's about 80 decibels and I could hear it from the third floor to the first floor. Was going to fashion some sort of plug in box for it, just never got around to it. Right now I just use a plug off an old extension cord and put alligator clips on the buzzer. 

http://www.buzzersdirect.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=5107


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## Frasbee

frenchelectrican said:


> For me to try to trace some circuits what i useally do either take 500 w quatz or 1.5 Kw heater and put in alternating relay or simuair and cycle the load and it will show up on ampmeter [ digtail is ok with 1.5 KW heater but for quatz i use anlog meter to read the peak and valley's ]
> 
> Merci,Marc


One day...one day friend, I _will_ understand what you said.

Anyway, so I decided to take most people's advice here and avoid tripping the breakers by dead short. This especially after I inspected one of the receptacles and saw that the short melted the copper or brass...inside the receptacle. I told my foreman that I was trying to avoid tripping them anymore for that reason.


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## 480sparky

Frasbee said:


> One day...one day friend, I _will_ understand what you said.
> 
> Anyway, so I decided to take most people's advice here and avoid tripping the breakers by dead short. This especially after I inspected one of the receptacles and saw that the short melted the copper or brass...inside the receptacle. I told my foreman that I was trying to avoid tripping them anymore for that reason.


Absolutely correct. Ever blow a hole in you strippers/dikes/linesmans cutting a hot wire and shorting it out? Same hole/pit/burns end up on the wiper blades inside the receptacle. Are you willing to trust that connection with the cord end at that point? I didn't think so.


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## nap

just as a side not: you do realize that every manufacturer of breakers I am aware of recommends replacing a breaker that has tripped due to a short circuit. They will no longer warranty them regardless if they can determine it had been short circuit tripped.


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## Frasbee

nap said:


> just as a side not: you do realize that every manufacturer of breakers I am aware of recommends replacing a breaker that has tripped due to a short circuit. They will no longer warranty them regardless if they can determine it had been short circuit tripped.


I wasn't _fully_ aware of that, however one of my teachers had mentioned to me that they need to be replaced, especially if they've been tripped several times. That was another thing I was thinking about as I was stuffing 12 gauge in the receptacle.


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## gilbequick

chenley said:


> I bought myself a buzzer to trace circuits down while working alone. It's about 80 decibels and I could hear it from the third floor to the first floor. Was going to fashion some sort of plug in box for it, just never got around to it. Right now I just use a plug off an old extension cord and put alligator clips on the buzzer.
> 
> http://www.buzzersdirect.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=5107


I use the tone on my Fluke Volt Alert to do the same thing. It makes a sound at a certain pitch that isn't loud but you can hear over long distances even over a fair amount of noise.

I might have to pick up one of those buzzers though, that would be pretty handy. Thanks for the link.


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## randomkiller

gilbequick said:


> I use the tone on my Fluke Volt Alert to do the same thing. It makes a sound at a certain pitch that isn't loud but you can hear over long distances even over a fair amount of noise.
> 
> I might have to pick up one of those buzzers though, that would be pretty handy. Thanks for the link.


 
I have always used an Ideal circuit tracer, they are very inexpensive when on sale.


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## tripbraker

i use my job radio (dewault )on a 100 foot cord - with 2 people lableing or identifying goes quick .


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## randomkiller

tripbraker said:


> i use my job radio (dewault )on a 100 foot cord - with 2 people lableing or identifying goes quick .


 
That has always been an old stand by method for a smaller job.


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## HighWirey

randomkiller said:


> Why not just plug the mexicans wanna be music player into an outlet that your trying to identify and then start flipping breakers, when it goes off you have the breaker. Then plug it into the next outlet to be labeled. Then once you have them all identified, take the neutral from that last circuit the radio is on and touch it to the next breaker down from the ungrounded conductor for the circuit and fix the radio permanently.


You kind'a fond of that fix, arn't you? I've seen you post it before.

I really like your solution, just never been in the position to apply it, and envious here.

480's solution with the flasher module and the clamp, is much more elequent, and acceptable in our litigious age.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller

HighWirey said:


> You kind'a fond of that fix, arn't you? I've seen you post it before.
> 
> I really like your solution, just never been in the position to apply it, and envious here.
> 
> 480's solution with the flasher module and the clamp, is much more elequent, and acceptable in our litigious age.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


Yes I do like that repair a lot but, then again I HATE mexican sheetrockers and their crap music more than any other annoyance on a job.


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## te12co2w

That is the wrong way to train an apprentice. No question. They make circuit tracers that you can plug into a receptacle and it transmits a signal back to the panel. You use the other half of the setup there to find the signal. ie which breaker. Not infallible but muuch safer. The cheap models you can buy for $50-60. at the orange store. If you are on the level here, you know what you are doing is wrong and unsafe. Would you tell an apprentice to do that? Hopefully not. There are ways to convey your apprehension to your boss or leader that should not get you in hot water. Maybe they are just testing the new guy to see how gullible he is. Years ago I had a journeyman tell me to test a wire for hot by grabbing it with my bare fingers while standing on a concrete stairway. I said no way but he kept on leaning on me telling me that there was no way I could possibly get shocked. Of course I got shocked and he said that was a surprise to him. Totally stupid on my part and he probably got a good laugh out of that at the lunch table. By the way, that was a union journeyman wireman.


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## JohnJ0906

te12co2w said:


> I had a journeyman tell me to test a wire for hot by grabbing it with may bare fingers while standing on a concrete stairway. I said no way but he kept on leaning on me telling me that there was no way I could possibly get shocked. Of course I got shocked and he said that was a surprise to him. Totally stupid on my part and he probably got a good laugh out of that at the lunch table. By the way, that was a union journyman electrician.


He should have been fired on the spot.

I'm all for a little "funnin" with the new guys, but that is total BS.


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## Podagrower

Discussions like this are extremely valuable for passing on information about what not to do, and how to do things the correct way. I had a helper who had been trained by another journeyman to turn a breaker on and off repeatedly to "burn" thru a short circuit. It made me nuts, every time this helper had a problem with a circuit, rather than try to fix it, he would just reset the breaker, hoping for better results. He finally stopped after two breakers failed, and the panel burst into flames.

There is a reason they kill people with an electric chair, not a plumbing chair, not a air conditioning chair, not a drywall chair. There are consequinces to our actions.


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## JohnJ0906

Podagrower said:


> Discussions like this are extremely valuable for passing on information about what not to do, and how to do things the correct way. I had a helper who had been trained by another journeyman to turn a breaker on and off repeatedly to "burn" thru a short circuit. It made me nuts, every time this helper had a problem with a circuit, rather than try to fix it, he would just reset the breaker, hoping for better results. He finally stopped after two breakers failed, and the panel burst into flames.
> 
> There is a reason they kill people with an electric chair, not a plumbing chair, not a air conditioning chair, not a drywall chair. There are consequinces to our actions.


It's one thing to send a helper for a wire stretcher or a bucket of holes, but for supposed journeymen to teach/do things like this irks me greatly.


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## grich

480sparky said:


> This is so simple.....
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My first job out of college 25 years ago, I was tracing circuits with a flasher just like your picture, and an old analog Amprobe. Ain't fancy, but it's cheap and it works!

I knew a man (passed away a few years ago) who worked at a big downtown Des Moines hotel. He ID'ed circuits there with a cord cap/SO cord/box with switch combo. Made me cringe to hear about it...


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## 480sparky

randomkiller said:


> Yes I do like that repair a lot but, then again I HATE mexican sheetrockers and their crap music more than any other annoyance on a job.


I take it you don't like music with just a tuba and an accordian?:no:


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## nap

480sparky said:


> I take it you don't like music with just a tuba and an accordian?:no:


You guys have to look at it a bit different. I don;t know if you'all are familiar with polkas (the music of my people) but they sound very similar. The rhythms are the same and the melodies familiar.

I like polkas.


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## randomkiller

nap said:


> You guys have to look at it a bit different. I don;t know if you'all are familiar with polkas (the music of my people) but they sound very similar. The rhythms are the same and the melodies familiar.
> 
> I like polkas.


And how in the hell did that happen? Did the polish have sailors that found mexico before Chris found the west indies? There is a similarity I never would have imagined. I thought the umpa music was cool when I was in Germany years ago. But then again, I was drinking the whole time, something I don't do on the job.


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## blindside

that is ridiculous! thats real cowboy stuff. you seem to have sorted it out now with some good suggestions from the other guys, but gee whiz, thats dangerous what you were doing!
all the best with it.
BSIDE


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## BryanMD

randomkiller said:


> And how in the hell did that happen? Did the polish have sailors that found mexico before Chris found the west indies? There is a similarity I never would have imagined. I thought the umpa music was cool when I was in Germany years ago. But then again, I was drinking the whole time, something I don't do on the job.


I suspect it was the pretty girls in low cut blouses who were serving those beers rather than the beer itself let alone the music playing in the background that had your attention focused. 

As to Mexico and potential polka...
Going back to the 1500's and the Spanish/Hapsburg er, uhm efforts there have been periods of significant German/Austrian and Polish soldiers being in country where they would discover a senorita and settle down in Mexico. The middle of the 1800's (shortly after Independence) was a period of LARGE civilian migration.

From Wiki:
The best-known Mexican genre by far is ranchera, interpreted by a band of mariachis. Another important music style is the traditional "norteño," or Northern tunes, which has been the basis for thees such as banda music. Not only are these styles popular in many regions of Mexico. Norteño, similar to Tejano music, arose in the 1830s and 40s in the Rio Grande border region of southern Texas. Influenced by Bohemian immigrant miners, its rhythm was derived from the European polka dance popular during the 1800s


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## 480sparky




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## HighWirey

blindside said:


> that is ridiculous! thats real cowboy stuff. you seem to have sorted it out now with some good suggestions from the other guys, but gee whiz, thats dangerous what you were doing!
> all the best with it. BSIDE


You are not alone in your thinking.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## grich

480sparky said:


>


We'll need Hulcher's to clean this mess up!

I seem to remember you and Marc talking about clamp-on ammeters and turning loads off and on...memory fading...


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## BryanMD

on topic, the cycling of the amp load by the flasher will be seen on the amprobe.


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## Ecopat

:laughing: You guys, :laughing: You make my evenings, I am so glad to have found this site.
To be able to talk about the work we do and still have time to be lighthearted, unlike a few other "Electrical" sites out there where everyone has their head so far up their own ass that even the hint of humour leads to a warning that you are not following "Forum rules"

Thankyou all. Nige. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky

Humor? What is 'Humor'?


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## Ecopat

Nothing to see here, move along.


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## 480sparky

Ecopat said:


> Nothing to see here, move along.


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## Ecopat

Back on topic, wise words indeed. :thumbsup:



480sparky said:


> If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, you'll never have the time to do it right the second time.


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## nap

randomkiller said:


> And how in the hell did that happen? Did the polish have sailors that found mexico before Chris found the west indies? There is a similarity I never would have imagined. I thought the umpa music was cool when I was in Germany years ago. But then again, I was drinking the whole time, something I don't do on the job.


we actually got here first but we forgot to right down the directions so when we went back home, we never could find our way back.:whistling2:


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## randomkiller

nap said:


> we actually got here first but we forgot to right down the directions so when we went back home, we never could find our way back.:whistling2:


I thought you were gonna say they marked the transom of the boat with an "X" when they got there to designate the spot.


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## 480sparky

randomkiller said:


> I thought you were gonna say they marked the transom of the boat with an "X" when they got there to designate the spot.


Who says they're going to get the same boat on the next trip? :laughing:


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## nap

randomkiller said:


> I thought you were gonna say they marked the transom of the boat with an "X" when they got there to designate the spot.


I love it.:thumbsup:


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## flashian

*Breaker Shorting*

Frasbee,
In the UK we use a circuit finder. You plug in or connect the sender unit into the outlet you want to find this sends a signal down the line which can be traced at the distrubition board by passing the reciever over the breaker .The way your foreman is asking you to find the circuits seem a bit strange.Maybe you should ask him to short the breakers .You only get one life look after it. Best of luck flashian :thumbsup:


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## kjw444

I bought an ideal circuit tracer and it works good on single phase panels but not so well on three phase? Anyone else have this problem?


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## JohnJ0906

kjw444 said:


> I bought an ideal circuit tracer and it works good on single phase panels but not so well on three phase? Anyone else have this problem?


Do you mean this one?
I have never tried it on a 3 phase panel, but it works fine on a 1 ph.


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## kjw444

JohnJ0906 said:


> Do you mean this one?
> I have never tried it on a 3 phase panel, but it works fine on a 1 ph.


Yes that same one! It was nice and cheap so I thought what the hell I'll get it and about 3 days later I needed it. But on three phase panels it would give you the general location, but not the exact breaker.


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## JohnJ0906

kjw444 said:


> Yes that same one! It was nice and cheap so I thought what the hell I'll get it and about 3 days later I needed it. But on three phase panels it would give you the general location, but not the exact breaker.


Usually, I run the locater over every breaker, and it will go off several times. I then run it again, and it will only indicate one.
Have you tried this?


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## randomkiller

JohnJ0906 said:


> Usually, I run the locater over every breaker, and it will go off several times. I then run it again, and it will only indicate one.
> Have you tried this?


I have the older model and just keep running it up and down the breakers, adjusting the sensitivity wheel a little more each time. If it comes down to one or two breakers, I turn off one and if it doesn't tick I'm good, if not I try the other and it won't tick without power on the sending unit.


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## WIREDOG

i too was taught that this was the right way but have found out it is not!!!! spend 30 bucks and get at least a wiggy or something of the sort. I prefer the fluke T+pro but i know times are hard when you first start. Good test equipment will save your life!!!!


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## Frasbee

Wow...dead thread revival.

Anyway, I was using one at the time of this post, but I guess we didn't have proper equipment to trace a wire. When you go down a panel and turn everything off and the stupid stick is still screamin', we figured we'd trip it. Especially since many of those receptacles were moved, and many of the guys that worked on them were either on another job or had been fired.

-shrug-


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## electricalperson

im pretty sure we are all guilty of shorting out a circuit to find it. i shorted out a circuit to find it in the panel. it was an FPE panel and the breaker tripped fine but a little loud. i bought a circuit tracer and im using that from now on. its a horrible idea to short out stuff and its wrong to teach helpers. i always use my tracer from now on


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## 76nemo

You can also try these:

http://buzzbulb.com/index.html


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## electricalperson

76nemo said:


> You can also try these:
> 
> http://buzzbulb.com/index.html


wow i never known they made something like that thats a pretty good idea


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## 2towbot

*Replace Receptacle?*

Ok so the rocket scientist that is your foreman has had you shorting out all
the plugs to find the breakers..............now how much damage has been
done internally and externally melted copper and black smoke marks
Probably could afford some tracing equipment for the labor your gonna have to put into repairs 

Just my 2 bits -
-dave


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