# Motor starter maintenance ...



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Are we talking 10HP manual starters or 5000HP medium voltage starters, like in a... rock crusher. :laughing:


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Lol, good point.
Smaller motor starters. 100 HP and lower. Maybe not even that high.
I want to get more involved with the motor side of commercial/industrial. I've done the piping, wire pulling, motor mounts, and basically all the grunt work. But none of the other side, or very little anyway.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Here is a good Square D wiring diagram book. 

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Machine Control/0140CT9201.pdf

The preventive maintenance will be in the manufactures spec sheets. Also on the MCC's.. 
You just need to search for the brand and model of MCC's. They "Change" them every 10 years or so. But they are still mostly the same as 30 years ago.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

Awesome, thanks


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Rock Crusher said:


> Awesome, thanks


Your welcome. 

Oh ya, pictures or we will never believe your fixing stuff. 

One of the things I've noticed is how quickly a company buys another out and how the next "up date" is no more then a shift in contactor mounting. Then the o/l reset button doesn't reach thru the door anymore. 

Pulling buckets is the easiest way to line up and mount the new gear. But remember the arc flash problem. Some have awful big bangs and it can be due to a "lack of" maintenance that sets it all in motion. 

I write notes inside them all the time. 
In sharpie if its a hard note and in china marker if its a variable one.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

The company I'm currently with doesn't believe in PM on anything, including electrical. I was almost involved in a major arc flash event just sitting at a control board. We crush rock, hence the name, and it gets extremely dusty around here. As you can guess, they have electrical problems.
They have antiquated ITE equipment, so swapping a bucket isn't an option. I told them they can use a different vendor, but they don't want to here it. I wasn't hired as an electrician, even though I am one, so I don't know anything. Anyway...
The company I'm wanting to work for does believe in PM, as I do. Which is why i wanted to know more about the PM side of motors. Their motors and equipment are not as big as the stuff here.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Rock Crusher said:


> The company I'm currently with doesn't believe in PM on anything, including electrical. I was almost involved in a major arc flash event just sitting at a control board. We crush rock, hence the name, and it gets extremely dusty around here. As you can guess, they have electrical problems.
> They have antiquated ITE equipment, so swapping a bucket isn't an option. I told them they can use a different vendor, but they don't want to here it. I wasn't hired as an electrician, even though I am one, so I don't know anything. Anyway...
> The company I'm wanting to work for does believe in PM, as I do. Which is why i wanted to know more about the PM side of motors. Their motors and equipment are not as big as the stuff here.


I wish you luck. 
PM $$ is always the first to be cut. I see it here all the time. But repair $$ is always available. 
I try to squeeze as much PM's in as I can. I do a lot if it on the fly. But with such a large facility here, its swimming up stream. I just keep in mind that sooner or later I'll be repairing what gets broken. That's why I like notes inside the gear.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

This exploded 30 minutes after I left work. The 30A was double landed with the AC. Their theory was they are never used at the same time. I told them that's not the only reason you don't double land something.









That's the new panel btw


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Rock Crusher said:


> The company I'm currently with doesn't believe in PM on anything, including electrical. I was almost involved in a major arc flash event just sitting at a control board. We crush rock, hence the name, and it gets extremely dusty around here. As you can guess, they have electrical problems.
> They have antiquated ITE equipment, so swapping a bucket isn't an option. I told them they can use a different vendor, but they don't want to here it. I wasn't hired as an electrician, even though I am one, so I don't know anything. Anyway...
> The company I'm wanting to work for does believe in PM, as I do. Which is why i wanted to know more about the PM side of motors. Their motors and equipment are not as big as the stuff here.


Mind if I ask what company you work for? National or local?
I have had many dealings with rock quarry's.
Two national companies here in SC.
You are spot on about rough duty.

My suggestion as far as maintaining starters is not to ruin the contacts with emory cloth or files.
Blow out or vacuum starter, inspect mechanical parts and lightly dress the contacts. Also check all connections.
This is about all you can do.
Use a pencil eraser or "Mr. Clean" dry scrub pads (eraser) for contacts.

What type of drives and soft starts do you guys use?
The two plants I worked with used Benshaw and Weg almost exclusively.
And you are correct.
They are afraid to try anything new.

They would stay down before they would install something they were not familiar with.
They also thought the world revolved around them and their process.
Everything was a 911 call. Even when it was not.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

I don't know if they want me posting on here and asking questions, but what the hell. What are the chances they're gonna see this.
I work at a national company, one of the biggest.
As far as I know, they don't have soft starts. It looks like they do when I start up. We have a Benshaw we use as our Hammermill, but the Cone and Primary Crusher are not. I can't remember what those are. But those are the 3 biggest loads we have.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

I recommend regular thermal scans if it's the only PM that can be accomplished. They are always helpful, but almost a necessity now days if no other PM is done.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I love the aggregate industry, it's one of the few remaining heavy industries that exist all over the country because so far, it doesn't make sense to import crushed rock from China. But who knows...

That said, my favorite line is that Fred Flinstone and Barney Rubble worked in a quarry. Aside form the dinosaurs being replaced by engines and electric motors, pretty much their direct descendants still work there and have not evolved. If there is a way to abuse equipment, they find it and if the owners/managers can find a cheaper way to make something run or avoid spending money on improvements, they find it too. I have run across a precious few forward looking people who understand the true economic value of efficient operation, but those kinds are not only rare, they tend to move on to better situations.

The basic economic formula that they often mess up on is this: they only get paid for putting crushed rock on the ground. Down time is a killer, hence their attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but they miss out on parts 2 & 3. "If it does break, it ain't making money", and "operating lean and clean means lower fuel and power bills", which for them is their only real cost for raw materials, because the rock itself is virtually free. We see the effects at the electrical end, but this short sidedness extends to most aspects of the operations. 

I helped one of the smart ones do a study on cone crusher efficiency my creating a belt-weighing system to measure the recycle rate on the crusher return conveyor, where the large rocks that didn't go through the screen were sent back into the crusher to be crushed again. We found that once the cone liner material got below 50% thickness, the return rate spiked. Basically less rock on the ground at a higher energy cost. He started replacing the liners at 50% and ended up with the lowest operating cost of all of his competitors. On top of that, he SOLD the half spent liners TO his competitors, who drooled over the fact that there was still 50% material left on them! He also learned early on that the lost production time (no rock on the ground) from waiting even a day or two for obsolete parts to fix old starters cost him 7-10 times the cost of new replacements.

He retired at age 55 as a multi-millionaire.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Rock Crusher said:


> I don't know if they want me posting on here and asking questions, but what the hell. What are the chances they're gonna see this.
> I work at a national company, one of the biggest.
> As far as I know, they don't have soft starts. It looks like they do when I start up. We have a Benshaw we use as our Hammermill, but the Cone and Primary Crusher are not. I can't remember what those are. But those are the 3 biggest loads we have.


Hanson?

Why would they care as long as you don't share the secrete of smashing big stones into little stones.


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

John Valdes said:


> Hanson?
> 
> Why would they care as long as you don't share the secrete of smashing big stones into little stones.


Not Hanson, and good point. But they are so paranoid sometimes about certain things. I don't understand them.
Martin Marrietta Materials


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

JRaef said:


> I love the aggregate industry, it's one of the few remaining heavy industries that exist all over the country because so far, it doesn't make sense to import crushed rock from China. But who knows...
> 
> If there is a way to abuse equipment, they find it and if the owners/managers can find a cheaper way to make something run or avoid spending money on improvements, they find it too. I have run across a precious few forward looking people who understand the true economic value of efficient operation, but those kinds are not only rare, they tend to move on to better situations.
> 
> The basic economic formula that they often mess up on is this: they only get paid for putting crushed rock on the ground. Down time is a killer, hence their attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but they miss out on parts 2 & 3. "If it does break, it ain't making money", and "operating lean and clean means lower fuel and power bills", which for them is their only real cost for raw materials, because the rock itself is virtually free. We see the effects at the electrical end, but this shortsightedness extends to most aspects of the operations.


I completely and totally agree. I've done research and talked to them about things, even beat the production goals for a month straight that they said hasn't happened since they've owned the plant. Oh well though, I'll be one of the ones that "moves on to better situations".


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Rock Crusher said:


> I completely and totally agree. I've done research and talked to them about things, even beat the production goals for a month straight that they said hasn't happened since they've owned the plant. Oh well though, I'll be one of the ones that "moves on to better situations".


Yep, that's what happens. Smart people get frustrated and eventually leave when they can. The next guy comes in cheap and green, works hard and learns, tries to help and gets frustrated, then starts looking elsewhere. Repeat ad nauseum. 

The fact that you proved it to them and they still don't get it proves something. What's that saying? 

"You can't fix stupid!"


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## Rock Crusher (May 6, 2013)

I've even gone as far as calling the manufacturers of some of the equipment, conveyors and such, and still nothing.
There are guys still there that have been doing this for a lot longer then any of them and they don't even listen to them.
Oh well, life goes on.:thumbup:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Rock Crusher said:


> The company I'm currently with doesn't believe in PM on anything, including electrical.


Doesnt take much research to find stats that prove PM is good business and saves money over time. 


Rock Crusher said:


> They have antiquated ITE equipment, so swapping a bucket isn't an option.


Why not? We build replacements for those all the time. 



Rock Crusher said:


> Which is why i wanted to know more about the PM side of motors. Their motors and equipment are not as big as the stuff here.


Check ANSI/NETA standards, they list all the PM's and testing that should be done. NFPA 70B is a good reference as well.


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