# cw/ce



## Potential11

How do inside-wireman think and feel about the cw/ce program?


----------



## HARRY304E

Potential11 said:


> How do inside-wireman think and feel about the cw/ce program?



It's simply a way to undercut Journeymen Electricians who paid their dues.


----------



## Chrisibew440

HARRY304E said:


> It's simply a way to undercut Journeymen Electricians who paid their dues.


Don't listen to this bs. I'd like to hear from someone that any cw or ce took work out of their hands. I put my faith in the hall for excepting these guys and In my opinion it is being handled right.


----------



## Potential11

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## HARRY304E

Chrisibew440 said:


> Don't listen to this bs. I'd like to hear from someone that any cw or ce took work out of their hands. I put my faith in the hall for excepting these guys and In my opinion it is being handled right.


:laughing:

I give,,,I give...:laughing:


----------



## Chrisibew440

I wasn't to sure if you were in opposition or not Harry?


----------



## HARRY304E

Chrisibew440 said:


> I wasn't to sure if you were in opposition or not Harry?



I'm against the IBEW looking for ways to cut wages,and from what I understand is that the ce/cw program is meant to do just that.

I don't see this idea as a good thing for the electrical trade,we all should be paid a professional wage.


----------



## Potential11

Cw/Ce is just another form of apprentice without the title. They get paid almost same scale as apprentices. Very daunting.


----------



## erics37

If they want to get people in, fine. But don't run ads looking for cheap CE/CWs for a project when there's a buttload of JWs sitting on Book 1.

I understand recruiting people in is a priority but do it right and organize them as JWs or indenture them as apprentices. Don't undercut the people the IBEW is built on.


----------



## erics37

Chrisibew440 said:


> Don't listen to this bs. I'd like to hear from someone that any cw or ce took work out of their hands. I put my faith in the hall for excepting these guys and In my opinion it is being handled right.


Are you trolling? :blink:

Go on Facebook and search for the group called IBEW CE/CW Watchdogs (I think that's what it's called, or similar) and read up.


----------



## Potential11

I posted a YouTube upload of some brothers with valid points. It seems like these brothers that are representing us aren't listening to the members.


----------



## eejack

The intention of the program is good. Implementation has been sketchy.


----------



## brian john

eejack said:


> The intention of the program is good. Implementation has been sketchy.


In our local they have a residential electrician, these guys hardly ever to NEVER do residential, but it gets the open shop men in the local and they can do an upgrade 2 or 3 years of school and become "A" wiremen. We need more men that the apprenticeship was turning out and it was a good way to bring men into the IBEW.

Do some take advantage of this sure, but overall I think it is a good program.

I just had a guy finish the upgrade school , obtain his license and is now an "A" wireman. He is happy and I am glad he show the drive to upgrade.


----------



## fistofbolts

as an apprentice, I have seen most cw's make it to 2nd year and leave. they usually feel they are journeymen already and go back to non-union with what little they have learned. sone do make it through but not many. I think its a ok program, but they should have to become indentured. and I hear rumors that they will be allowed to travel soon and I think that is very wrong if it happens.


----------



## rewire

a few years ago for every retiree drawing from the pension fund four guys were paying in. Now for every retiree drawing their is only one paying in. The pension fund is going to be upside down soon so it was decided in order to boost those paying into the system a lower paid class of wireman was the answer. The contractor benefited from the lower cost of manpower and the pension fund benefited from more dues paying members.


----------



## brian john

rewire said:


> *a few years ago for every retiree drawing from the pension fund four guys were paying in. Now for every retiree drawing their is only one paying in. The pension fund is going to be upside down soon so it was decided in order to boost those paying into the system a lower paid class of wireman was the answer.* The contractor benefited from the lower cost of manpower and the pension fund benefited from more dues paying members.


I am not doubting what you say as the IBEW membership has shrunk, but do you have a link to something that backs this up. If you posted this informationbefore I must have missed it.


----------



## rewire

brian john said:


> I am not doubting what you say as the IBEW membership has shrunk, but do you have a link to something that backs this up. If you posted this informationbefore I must have missed it.


I received a dvd. From the local explaining t he classification and pension was one of the major topics. along with market recovery .


----------



## Skblay

rewire said:


> a few years ago for every retiree drawing from the pension fund four guys were paying in. Now for every retiree drawing their is only one paying in. The pension fund is going to be upside down soon so it was decided in order to boost those paying into the system a lower paid class of wireman was the answer. The contractor benefited from the lower cost of manpower and the pension fund benefited from more dues paying members.


I would love to see proof of this.



rewire said:


> I received a dvd. From the local explaining t he classification and pension was one of the major topics. along with market recovery .


Why would the local give YOU a DVD? can you perhaps take a picture of this DVD?


----------



## rewire

Skblay said:


> I would love to see proof of this.
> 
> Why would the local give YOU a DVD? can you perhaps take a picture of this DVD?


I am still in the mailing list at I O because I am vested in the Nebf. No I did not save a two year old dvd.


----------



## Potential11

erics37 said:


> Are you trolling? :blink:
> 
> Go on Facebook and search for the group called IBEW CE/CW Watchdogs (I think that's what it's called, or similar) and read up.


Thanks for the useful information. It is similar. I found it under 
IBEW CE/CW Program Monitors

If you listen to the YouTube Video I uploaded it seems like this has been in the works for some time back East. Here in L.A. they have started to use these CW/CE gentlemen that I know of in one Solar field job and I have seen calls for them posted on Job Calls for retail jobs. So they are starting to put these guys to work here in West very recently. Right now there are about 140 apprentices on the books for over one month. These apprentices range from 40% to 85%. It's about 5 classes of apprentices. Guys going without work for over one month. It seems like the hall is training apprentices to be at hall when they are journeymen. There are over 1000 JW's on the book. 

I don't understand why not use apprentices instead of these CW/CE program. Apprentices are still cheap labor.


----------



## rewire

Potential11 said:


> Thanks for the useful information. It is similar. I found it under
> IBEW CE/CW Program Monitors
> 
> If you listen to the YouTube Video I uploaded it seems like this has been in the works for some time back East. Here in L.A. they have started to use these CW/CE gentlemen that I know of in one Solar field job and I have seen calls for them posted on Job Calls for retail jobs. So they are starting to put these guys to work here in West very recently. Right now there are about 140 apprentices on the books for over one month. These apprentices range from 40% to 85%. It's about 5 classes of apprentices. Guys going without work for over one month. It seems like the hall is training apprentices to be at hall when they are journeymen. There are over 1000 JW's on the book.
> 
> I don't understand why not use apprentices instead of these CW/CE program. Apprentices are still cheap labor.


It is not about cheap labor. It is gu dues paying members. Guys out of work are still paying dues. The other side of the coin is job costs more contractors are looking for target money that the locals just don't have. This is for the Io and contractors not the A members


----------



## Potential11

Skblay said:


> I would love to see proof of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would the local give YOU a DVD? can you perhaps take a picture of this DVD?


When I just got in IBEW an old timer here in L.A. talked about this DVD he received from the IO.


----------



## Potential11

brian john said:


> In our local they have a residential electrician, these guys hardly ever to NEVER do residential, but it gets the open shop men in the local and they can do an upgrade 2 or 3 years of school and become "A" wiremen.
> _
> oKAY, so these men were organized in and still do the apprenticeship program and become "A" Wireman. Cool, I'm for that, the IBEW constitution states we want to organize all in the electrical industry and raise our standard of living and live with dignity. Great.
> 
> _
> We need more men that the apprenticeship was turning out and it was a good way to bring men into the IBEW._
> 
> Organize. Bring in more apprenctices. Hire more instructors. _
> Do some take advantage of this sure, but overall I think it is a good program.
> 
> _Alot take advantage of this program. It's an awesome program. A blessing to educate and organize and be a PROFESSIONAL. I love it. Thanks to all the men who have been a part of this and seek to uplift their fellow brother.
> _


----------



## LGLS

Potential11 said:


> Cw/Ce is just another form of apprentice without the title. They get paid almost same scale as apprentices. Very daunting.


 Except they don't apprentice and have no chance for advancement. In an area where the nonunion dominates small work like the residential market and storefronts, the CW/CE would be competing with their nonunion counterparts, not Journeymen wiremen. THE CW/CE program allows union shops to bid on and get that small work with the same advantages nonunion shops have - lower paid workers. Plus a few JWs would be on the job too. The only negative effect it has on JWs is that some job that might have gone standard JW might go CW/CE, but the sheer number of jobs the nonunion sector will lose would oughtweigh that negative by far.


----------



## Potential11

IslandGuy said:


> Except they don't apprentice and have no chance for advancement. In an area where the nonunion dominates small work like the residential market and storefronts, the CW/CE would be competing with their nonunion counterparts, not Journeymen wiremen. THE CW/CE program allows union shops to bid on and get that small work with the same advantages nonunion shops have - lower paid workers. Plus a few JWs would be on the job too. The only negative effect it has on JWs is that some job that might have gone standard JW might go CW/CE, but the sheer number of jobs the nonunion sector will lose would oughtweigh that negative by far.


_Why not use residential apprentices and inside apprentices? have these guys test in or organize in?

here in Los Angeles they had a Summer Helper program for years (California's term is Electrician Trainee)... I'm sure that program was used in most of Southern California. Alot of apprentices came in that way. Many are JW's now. These guys paid basic dues as well for representation and working dues.
_


----------



## fistofbolts

Potential11 said:


> Thanks for the useful information. It is similar. I found it under
> IBEW CE/CW Program Monitors
> 
> If you listen to the YouTube Video I uploaded it seems like this has been in the works for some time back East. Here in L.A. they have started to use these CW/CE gentlemen that I know of in one Solar field job and I have seen calls for them posted on Job Calls for retail jobs. So they are starting to put these guys to work here in West very recently. Right now there are about 140 apprentices on the books for over one month. These apprentices range from 40% to 85%. It's about 5 classes of apprentices. Guys going without work for over one month. It seems like the hall is training apprentices to be at hall when they are journeymen. There are over 1000 JW's on the book.
> 
> I don't understand why not use apprentices instead of these CW/CE program. Apprentices are still cheap labor.


cws should be laid off and apprentices put to work. what a bunch of bs.


----------



## Brother Noah

Chrisibew440 said:


> Don't listen to this bs. I'd like to hear from someone that any cw or ce took work out of their hands. I put my faith in the hall for excepting these guys and In my opinion it is being handled right.


Brother Chris we are fortunate in our local dealing with this issue so far. This program raises the ire and or hostilities (even ed himself) The problem I see with it is the fact that its different in every local. This program in my opinion is unfair to those with aspirations of becoming an IBEW journeyman (the scales for them are to low and guide lines to loose to ensure success) It devalues all electrical workers worth (yes even nonunion) It seems like the enticement to just get into the IBEW is the proverbial carrot IO has dangled with a lower scale than jws make working for merit shops.
Now last year I worked out of 569 1 mile from the border our crew consisted of 3 jws and 15 cws who were picking fruit the previous week (6-10s for $225-$250) they were making $11 an hour. The normal crew I have worked for consist of 5-8 jws and 2-3 apprentice which I am sure would cost the said contractor a great deal more. I guess one would have to experience the program under several different locals to even guess if it worth its weight or not?


----------



## fistofbolts

Brother Noah said:


> Brother Chris we are fortunate in our local dealing with this issue so far. This program raises the ire and or hostilities (even ed himself) The problem I see with it is the fact that its different in every local. This program in my opinion is unfair to those with aspirations of becoming an IBEW journeyman (the scales for them are to low and guide lines to loose to ensure success) It devalues all electrical workers worth (yes even nonunion) It seems like the enticement to just get into the IBEW is the proverbial carrot IO has dangled with a lower scale than jws make working for merit shops.
> Now last year I worked out of 569 1 mile from the border our crew consisted of 3 jws and 15 cws who were picking fruit the previous week (6-10s for $225-$250) they were making $11 an hour. The normal crew I have worked for consist of 5-8 jws and 2-3 apprentice which I am sure would cost the said contractor a great deal more. I guess one would have to experience the program under several different locals to even guess if it worth its weight or not?


good points noah. my concern is where recently on a job, our gf needed 2 jw's and requested that. the office sends him 3 cw's that had little experience. they fit around the jw to apprentice ratio. it ended up badly with a lot of mistakes made that had to be reworked. not the perfect example. if I was the gf I would have spun them off after a day or two, but I think he had his hands tied by the shop.


----------



## LGLS

Potential11 said:


> _Why not use residential apprentices and inside apprentices?
> _


_ Because those guys are training and learning how to become journeymen, not cheap labor to sling rope for 5 years but then not know how to bend pipe, wire alarm systems and all the other top notch work journeymen do. Could you utilize unemployed apprentices? Sure. I don't know about your local but in ours apprentices are never unemployed anyway.



have these guys test in or organize in?

Click to expand...

That will simply add to the list of unemployed once in. Then the nonunion guys will recruit new ones. 




here in Los Angeles they had a Summer Helper program for years (California's term is Electrician Trainee)... I'm sure that program was used in most of Southern California. Alot of apprentices came in that way. Many are JW's now. These guys paid basic dues as well for representation and working dues.

Click to expand...

_


----------



## LGLS

fistofbolts said:


> cws should be laid off and apprentices put to work. what a bunch of bs.


 My understanding of the program is that CWs would be the equivilant of day laborers on a nonunion jobsite: they wouldn't be performing the skilled work or do any thinking, they'd be doing all the basic dog work, with a ratio of A-journeymen employed doing the skilled stuff. They also wouldn't be getting any training. That's not a position you want an apprentice in. We do not have a residential division.


----------



## fistofbolts

IslandGuy said:


> My understanding of the program is that CWs would be the equivilant of day laborers on a nonunion jobsite: they wouldn't be performing the skilled work or do any thinking, they'd be doing all the basic dog work, with a ratio of A-journeymen employed doing the skilled stuff. They also wouldn't be getting any training. That's not a position you want an apprentice in. We do not have a residential division.


Guess it depends on the local. Here in AZ they take a cw and get whatever they can out of them. One of my co-workers is one. He is a decent guy and does good work mostly. He doesn't have to have a jw supervising him. Our company likes to send him out with a gf on small jobs and then they don't have to worry about that requirement. Unfortunately he has a big head and considers himself a jw despite the countless simple mistakes he does. At least he is in school finally and will become indentured maybe next year, because the pay rate will balance out at that point. He makes a little less than 3rd year apprentice despite getting credit for around 5,000 hours non-union. I don't rub it in his face like I should, but it really bugs him that I make more with my 2.5 years experience. it's his own damn fault for not getting into the school side sooner, but he was spending his time trying to work around it instead.


----------



## rewire

from al 22

The *Construction Electrician *program is a three-year program intended for electrical workers with more than 8000 hours (about four years) of verifiable experience. A placement test will be given when the applicant has provided verifiable experience, by way of check stubs, W-2s, tax forms, or a letter from previous contractors. The starting pay for a CE-1 is $20.02 plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours and successful completion of the Craft Certification test, the pay will be increased to $21.56 per hour plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours as a CE-2 and successful completion of the Craft Certification test the pay will be increased to $23.10 per hour. Once the person receives a Journeymen’s license from the States of Nebraska and Iowa, and successfully completes the final test of the Craft Certification, the Construction Electrician will become eligible for Journeyman Wireman status


----------



## fistofbolts

rewire said:


> from al 22
> 
> The Construction Electrician program is a three-year program intended for electrical workers with more than 8000 hours (about four years) of verifiable experience. A placement test will be given when the applicant has provided verifiable experience, by way of check stubs, W-2s, tax forms, or a letter from previous contractors. The starting pay for a CE-1 is $20.02 plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours and successful completion of the Craft Certification test, the pay will be increased to $21.56 per hour plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours as a CE-2 and successful completion of the Craft Certification test the pay will be increased to $23.10 per hour. Once the person receives a Journeymen&#146;s license from the States of Nebraska and Iowa, and successfully completes the final test of the Craft Certification, the Construction Electrician will become eligible for Journeyman Wireman status


thank you for sharing that. makes me wonder what the set up is for cw's then.


----------



## brian john

rewire said:


> from al 22
> 
> The *Construction Electrician *program is a three-year program intended for electrical workers with more than 8000 hours (about four years) of verifiable experience. A placement test will be given when the applicant has provided verifiable experience, by way of check stubs, W-2s, tax forms, or a letter from previous contractors. The starting pay for a CE-1 is $20.02 plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours and successful completion of the Craft Certification test, the pay will be increased to $21.56 per hour plus fringe benefits. After 2000 hours as a CE-2 and successful completion of the Craft Certification test the pay will be increased to $23.10 per hour. Once the person receives a Journeymen’s license from the States of Nebraska and Iowa, and successfully completes the final test of the Craft Certification, the Construction Electrician will become eligible for Journeyman Wireman status


What are the "A" wireman hourly wage,


----------



## fistofbolts

brian john said:


> What are the "A" wireman hourly wage,


jw rate for whatever local this is in. lincoln, ne is about $25, omaha is around $32


----------



## Potential11

fistofbolts said:


> Guess it depends on the local. Here in AZ they take a cw and get whatever they can out of them. One of my co-workers is one. He is a decent guy and does good work mostly. He doesn't have to have a jw supervising him. Our company likes to send him out with a gf on small jobs and then they don't have to worry about that requirement. Unfortunately he has a big head and considers himself a jw despite the countless simple mistakes he does. At least he is in school finally and will become indentured maybe next year, because the pay rate will balance out at that point. He makes a little less than 3rd year apprentice despite getting credit for around 5,000 hours non-union. I don't rub it in his face like I should, but it really bugs him that I make more with my 2.5 years experience. it's his own damn fault for not getting into the school side sooner, but he was spending his time trying to work around it instead.


a CW is pretty much a summer helper ( electrician trainee ). Since implementing the CW/CE program here in Los Angeles the summer helper program has stopped and will only accept applicants who are sponsored. Most of the shops will use them for as much as they can get out of them, so I'm sure it will be the same WITH CW.


----------



## Potential11

brian john said:


> What are the "A" wireman hourly wage,



In Los Angeles CA it is $39.45


----------



## fistofbolts

Potential11 said:


> a CW is pretty much a summer helper ( electrician trainee ). Since implementing the CW/CE program here in Los Angeles the summer helper program has stopped and will only accept applicants who are sponsored. Most of the shops will use them for as much as they can get out of them, so I'm sure it will be the same WITH CW.


interesting. our local takes about any that apply. they have their own book from what I understand.


----------



## Potential11

fistofbolts said:


> interesting. our local takes about any that apply. they have their own book from what I understand.


_it takes whom?

the summer helpers had a book too....

i'm sure cw/ce do as well. 
_


----------



## Chrisibew440

Potential11 said:


> Cw/Ce is just another form of apprentice without the title. They get paid almost same scale as apprentices. Very daunting.


Not in my local. A cw 6 makes 20 and that's the final stage.


----------



## Potential11

Chrisibew440 said:


> Not in my local. A cw 6 makes 20 and that's the final stage.


That's a second year apprentices wages. 

Then they become CE s (making what 3rd thru 5th years make ) which in turn become JWs if they presevere. Just like apprentices. Then they become JWs.


----------



## Potential11

Chrisibew440 said:


> Don't listen to this bs. I'd like to hear from someone that any cw or ce took work out of their hands. I put my faith in the hall for excepting these guys and In my opinion it is being handled right.


IMO dont drink the kool-aid.


----------



## Potential11

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Hack Work

Any "A" JW IBEW member who supports the CE/CW program in the way the IO wants it implemented should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that it is YOU who is sitting the bench while some under-trained and under-paid worker comes in and does your job, because you certainly don't care if it happens to other men.

The IO just gave back 50 years of wages, benefits, and conditions, and here people are patting them on the back for it


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> Any "A" JW IBEW member who supports the CE/CW program in the way the IO wants it implemented should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that it is YOU who is sitting the bench while some under-trained and under-paid worker comes in and does your job, because you certainly don't care if it happens to other men.
> 
> The IO just gave back 50 years of wages, benefits, and conditions, and here people are patting them on the back for it


Hey Brother, did you listen to the youtube video?


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> Hey Brother, did you listen to the youtube video?


No, I'm not watching a 48 minute video.

I watched the DVD that the IO sent me many years ago, that spelled out the disdain that the IO has for the existing JW's quite clearly.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> No, I'm not watching a 48 minute video.
> 
> I watched the DVD that the IO sent me many years ago, that spelled out the disdain that the IO has for the existing JW's quite clearly.



10-4:thumbsup:


----------



## rewire

Hack Work said:


> Any "A" JW IBEW member who supports the CE/CW program in the way the IO wants it implemented should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that it is YOU who is sitting the bench while some under-trained and under-paid worker comes in and does your job, because you certainly don't care if it happens to other men.
> 
> The IO just gave back 50 years of wages, benefits, and conditions, and here people are patting them on the back for it


So are you a union contractor now?


----------



## Hack Work

rewire said:


> So are you a union contractor now?


No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.


----------



## LGLS

Hack Work said:


> Any "A" JW IBEW member who supports the CE/CW program in the way the IO wants it implemented should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that it is YOU who is sitting the bench while some under-trained and under-paid worker comes in and does your job, because you certainly don't care if it happens to other men.
> 
> The IO just gave back 50 years of wages, benefits, and conditions, and here people are patting them on the back for it


 I don't know how the program is implemented in your area, but the use of CE/CW is supposed to be limited to small work, where the total electrical contract costs remain below a certain level. Here that means storefronts, small shopping centers, dealerships, houses, things the IBEW contractors weren't doing anyway. You can't put a CE/CW on a $100,000.00 contracted job and replace A Journeymen.


----------



## Hack Work

IslandGuy said:


> I don't know how the program is implemented in your area, but the use of CE/CW is supposed to be limited to small work, where the total electrical contract costs remain below a certain level. Here that means storefronts, small shopping centers, dealerships, houses, things the IBEW contractors weren't doing anyway. You can't put a CE/CW on a $100,000.00 contracted job and replace A Journeymen.


In my local the CE/CW program simply replaced the "B" program that we've had for decades. It's like you said, small jobs or even resi work. I have no problem with that at all.

However, that is NOT how the IO intended it to be, and many locals who aren't as strong as my own went along with what the IO wants, which is to put CE/CW's on real jobs in replacement of "A" JW's in order to lower the cost for the contractors to try and gain more marketshare. In reality, the IO cares more about dues and pension money than anything else.


----------



## LGLS

Hack Work said:


> In my local the CE/CW program simply replaced the "B" program that we've had for decades. It's like you said, small jobs or even resi work. I have no problem with that at all.
> 
> However, that is NOT how the IO intended it to be, and many locals who aren't as strong as my own went along with what the IO wants, which is to put CE/CW's on real jobs in replacement of "A" JW's in order to lower the cost for the contractors to try and gain more marketshare. In reality, the IO cares more about dues and pension money than anything else.


 I'm sorry, but that is NOT how the IO intended it to be. The CE/CWs are not supposed to be on "real" jobs. They're supposed to be on the jobs that IBEW contractors weren't bidding on, the market we DIDN'T have, due to the inability to compete on price due to the signifigantly higher wages and apprentice/journeyman ratios an IBEW contractor has to pay. If your local is actually putting JWs out of large work with CEs then it is not implementing the program as the IO intended.


----------



## Hack Work

IslandGuy said:


> I'm sorry, but that is NOT how the IO intended it to be.


 You will be a lot sorrier if you actually believe what you just said.


----------



## fistofbolts

IslandGuy said:


> I don't know how the program is implemented in your area, but the use of CE/CW is supposed to be limited to small work, where the total electrical contract costs remain below a certain level. Here that means storefronts, small shopping centers, dealerships, houses, things the IBEW contractors weren't doing anyway. You can't put a CE/CW on a $100,000.00 contracted job and replace A Journeymen.


not at all the case in az. they can be used however the contractor wants. so you can understand why this angers some jw's.


----------



## brian john

Hack Work said:


> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.


Almost split my gut laughing


----------



## Potential11

Don't drink the kool-aid.


----------



## fistofbolts

this is off topic, but something interesting I found out about our ibew president.

http://theibewunionburyingground.blogspot.com/2004_01_10_archive.html


----------



## rewire

Hack Work said:


> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.


so you are a bankrupt weasel?


----------



## fistofbolts

also ran across this:

if it was only for m work fine...but in other states, these guys are now doing almost all of the work. in austin tx #60, there was a call last week for 2 jmen and 25 CEs that is not what we NYers call m work, that is taking jobs away from journeymen. like i said the contractors will take advantage of anything they can to make money ...and the IO has just handed them a giant wage DECREASE.
while the IO gets more dues payers. 
MIJ is paying back to the local as far as i was taught. so i was proud to be one.these guys (CE/CWs) are organized for the sole purpose of ELIMINATING the journeyman and his pay scale as we know it..these classifications are not like MIJs. they have a ceiling, they do not graduate to journeyman.


----------



## rewire

Jim and Joe are both paid 30/hr , Jim works extra hard and Joe does just the minimum. How long will it take before Jim realizes he can do minimum and still get 30/hr like Joe. This is what the contractor faces when he bids against the contractor that pays Jim 30.00/hr and Joe 18.00/hr. The thing to remember is if the union contractor can't get the work it does not matter what your scale is .


----------



## fistofbolts

rewire said:


> Jim and Joe are both paid 30/hr , Jim works extra hard and Joe does just the minimum. How long will it take before Jim realizes he can do minimum and still get 30/hr like Joe. This is what the contractor faces when he bids against the contractor that pays Jim 30.00/hr and Joe 18.00/hr. The thing to remember is if the union contractor can't get the work it does not matter what your scale is .


yeah well jim is going to be a knowlegable efficient pro 75% of the time, joe doesnt know how to do the difficult things and is prone at mistakes causing callbacks, reworks, and explosions


----------



## rewire

fistofbolts said:


> yeah well jim is going to be a knowlegable efficient pro 75% of the time, joe doesnt know how to do the difficult things and is prone at mistakes causing callbacks, reworks, and explosions


Joe is your typical union apprentice


----------



## brian john

fistofbolts said:


> yeah well jim is going to be a knowledgeable efficient pro 75% of the time, joe doesn't know how to do the difficult things and is prone at mistakes causing callbacks, reworks, *and explosions*


Not at all because you hire my firm and we find the mistakes prior to energizing.


----------



## fistofbolts

brian john said:


> Not at all because you hire my firm and we find the mistakes prior to energizing.


I have seen alot of that going on lately. non-union does most of the build and they bring union in at the end to fix it.


----------



## ponyboy

fistofbolts said:


> I have seen alot of that going on lately. non-union does most of the build and they bring union in at the end to fix it.


The exact opposite thing has been known to happen around here. No lie.


----------



## Awg-Dawg

fistofbolts said:


> I have seen alot of that going on lately. non-union does most of the build and they bring union in at the end to fix it.


:laughing:


----------



## brian john

fistofbolts said:


> I have seen alot of that going on lately. non-union does most of the build and they bring union in at the end to fix it.


I do work for union and open shop contractors and see an equal amount of mistakes on both sides. I also see quality on both sides of the work forces.


----------



## fistofbolts

ponyboy said:


> The exact opposite thing has been known to happen around here. No lie.


thats terrible


----------



## fistofbolts

brian john said:


> I do work for union and open shop contractors and see an equal amount of mistakes on both sides. I also see quality on both sides of the work forces.


im sure your right. I just have gotten to witness a few builds where they took the cheapest bid and ends up getting really screwed up at the end. and they bring a union shop to fix it up.


----------



## erics37

IslandGuy said:


> I'm sorry, but that is NOT how the IO intended it to be. The CE/CWs are not supposed to be on "real" jobs.


Yeah, but they are, and it is rampant. If the IO didn't mandate this top-down scheme for the all the locals, universally, regardless of the economic situation in different regions across the continent, then maybe it wouldn't be an issue.

Like I said before, if they want to come up with some way to organize more people in, that's great, but the CE/CW program is just a big F*CK YOU to all of the JWs out of work.


----------



## fistofbolts

erics37 said:


> Yeah, but they are, and it is rampant. If the IO didn't mandate this top-down scheme for the all the locals, universally, regardless of the economic situation in different regions across the continent, then maybe it wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> Like I said before, if they want to come up with some way to organize more people in, that's great, but the CE/CW program is just a big F*CK YOU to all of the JWs out of work.


with the case of my cw co-worker. I could be ok with it if they were required to be in the apprenticeship classes and held to the exact same standards. ex: they miss too much class they get booted out of everything. the screwed up thing is these cw's come in for the better pay and dont have to do the schooling if they choose. granted they will never move up to jw, but in their eyes they got it made and are learning from jw's in the field. 

bottom line is they are also displacing apprentices from work and not having to deal with school. it could easily get to the point where apprentices are almost a last resort option. cw's usually have more experience. why wouldnt a contractor want that instead?


----------



## rewire

The beast needs fed. Those in the business of spending dues money and being paid well for that function simply needed more dues money to spend. with membership in unions at 11% those who have enjoyed the fruits of your labor found their cushy positions in danger. As the rank and file shrank has the IO also shrank?


----------



## fistofbolts

rewire said:


> The beast needs fed. Those in the business of spending dues money and being paid well for that function simply needed more dues money to spend. with membership in unions at 11% those who have enjoyed the fruits of your labor found their cushy positions in danger. As the rank and file shrank has the IO also shrank?


I think it was more of a idea pushed through at last resort because they could not come up with anything else. More of an attempt to regain market share and be competitive. Not just to collect dues.

.....Then again, our pres was involved with money laundering as bm and financial secretary for a local.  His mistress must have been smoking hot

http://theibewunionburyingground.blogspot.com/2004_01_10_archive.html


----------



## Chrisibew440

fistofbolts said:


> with the case of my cw co-worker. I could be ok with it if they were required to be in the apprenticeship classes and held to the exact same standards. ex: they miss too much class they get booted out of everything. the screwed up thing is these cw's come in for the better pay and dont have to do the schooling if they choose. granted they will never move up to jw, but in their eyes they got it made and are learning from jw's in the field.
> 
> bottom line is they are also displacing apprentices from work and not having to deal with school. it could easily get to the point where apprentices are almost a last resort option. cw's usually have more experience. why wouldnt a contractor want that instead?


To me that's contradictory. The contractors know what's going on. You think the gf's and foreman are praising this behavior. Hell no! The name of the game is to make money and make the union look good. The apprentices in the program hold a much higher standard than the cw's and ces per capita. Union shops won't survive with bums on the payroll and they know it. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing comes crashing down. Now granted, there are some good cw's and ces and those are the ones that need to be jumped in.


----------



## Potential11

Chrisibew440 said:


> To me that's contradictory. The contractors know what's going on. You think the gf's and foreman are praising this behavior. Hell no! The name of the game is to make money and make the union look good. The apprentices in the program hold a much higher standard than the cw's and ces per capita. Union shops won't survive with bums on the payroll and they know it. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing comes crashing down. Now granted, there are some good cw's and ces and those are the ones that need to be jumped in.


That's right homie!


----------



## Chrisibew440

Potential11 said:


> That's right homie!


Is this loco 11


----------



## Potential11

Chrisibew440 said:


> Is this loco 11


Don't drink the kool-aid.


----------



## fistofbolts

Chrisibew440 said:


> To me that's contradictory. The contractors know what's going on. You think the gf's and foreman are praising this behavior. Hell no! The name of the game is to make money and make the union look good. The apprentices in the program hold a much higher standard than the cw's and ces per capita. Union shops won't survive with bums on the payroll and they know it. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing comes crashing down. Now granted, there are some good cw's and ces and those are the ones that need to be jumped in.


I can only hope you are right. But, if they can get away with removing as many jw's as possible from a project and filling them with cw's, and still get some decent quality, they will surely do that. That goes for later year apprentices too. Why pay $3 or 4 more when you can toss a cw in that has more experience hours to boot. I have seen them do it firsthand. Gf asked for 2 jw's and was given 3 low cw's. It was in a big crunch time on the project and we all ****ing suffered because of it. **** got half assed in some places. We all had a bad feeling about it, but nothing could be done. Man the GF was pissed, and is about ready to retire early because of it.


----------



## Chrisibew440

fistofbolts said:


> I can only hope you are right. But, if they can get away with removing as many jw's as possible from a project and filling them with cw's, and still get some decent quality, they will surely do that. That goes for later year apprentices too. Why pay $3 or 4 more when you can toss a cw in that has more experience hours to boot. I have seen them do it firsthand. Gf asked for 2 jw's and was given 3 low cw's. It was in a big crunch time on the project and we all ****ing suffered because of it. **** got half assed in some places. We all had a bad feeling about it, but nothing could be done. Man the GF was pissed, and is about ready to retire early because of it.


This is definitely a debateable subject. Good comment. As I've said before. I put my faith in the hall. Lets hope this is not the demise of union shops. Personally I'd pay someone full package to do it right. Hopefully the contractors feel the same.


----------



## fistofbolts

Chrisibew440 said:


> This is definitely a debateable subject. Good comment. As I've said before. I put my faith in the hall. Lets hope this is not the demise of union shops. Personally I'd pay someone full package to do it right. Hopefully the contractors feel the same.


agreed, and I'm doing the same. Here in AZ there is a alot of discontent with it. Things really took off in the last year so it quieted down. But as soon as work slow downs......guess we will see.


----------



## Chrisibew440

fistofbolts said:


> agreed, and I'm doing the same. Here in AZ there is a alot of discontent with it. Things really took off in the last year so it quieted down. But as soon as work slow downs......guess we will see.


We'd better.


----------



## brian john

fistofbolts said:


> agreed, and I'm doing the same. Here in AZ there is a alot of discontent with it. Things really took off in the last year so it quieted down. But as soon as work slow downs......guess we will see.


Here they have the "R" program and while there have been times it seems to be pretty accepted program now. It has help grow our local, with new members with a path to becoming "A" wiremen. I wonder how many other locals are growing.


----------



## Phatstax

CW/CE has a place in the IBEW. Organizing can be an effective tool. But like any tool in the box it cannot do everything. All tools have a purpose when the desired result is a quality installation. Unfortunately, many contractors are reaching for CW/CE for all tasks. They are abusing this tool and leaving the others unused, and these other tools are beginning to rust. A rusty tool doesn't work as effectively as a well oiled tool. I hope this short sighted plan by our contractors doesn't lead to our Wiremen and Apprentices leaving the IBEW for opportunities elsewhere. Sound like reverse salting?


----------



## Potential11

Phatstax said:


> CW/CE has a place in the IBEW. Organizing can be an effective tool. But like any tool in the box it cannot do everything. All tools have a purpose when the desired result is a quality installation. Unfortunately, many contractors are reaching for CW/CE for all tasks. They are abusing this tool and leaving the others unused, and these other tools are beginning to rust. A rusty tool doesn't work as effectively as a well oiled tool. I hope this short sighted plan by our contractors doesn't lead to our Wiremen and Apprentices leaving the IBEW for opportunities elsewhere. Sound like reverse salting?


I like your choice of words. :thumbsup:


----------



## fistofbolts

Phatstax said:


> CW/CE has a place in the IBEW. Organizing can be an effective tool. But like any tool in the box it cannot do everything. All tools have a purpose when the desired result is a quality installation. Unfortunately, many contractors are reaching for CW/CE for all tasks. They are abusing this tool and leaving the others unused, and these other tools are beginning to rust. A rusty tool doesn't work as effectively as a well oiled tool. I hope this short sighted plan by our contractors doesn't lead to our Wiremen and Apprentices leaving the IBEW for opportunities elsewhere. Sound like reverse salting?


reverse salting. that might just stick


----------



## uconduit

I'm not exactly sure who the cw/ce benefits. I mean it like saying to the cw/ce people that they are not good enough to be jws and to the jws it's like saying that the your job is going to cheaper labor. Is this the beginning of the end of the inside wiremen classification? Some locals don't deal in it yet though and I don't see a lot of acceptance among contractors so far. Well at least not yet anyways.


----------



## brian john

uconduit said:


> I'm not exactly sure who the cw/ce benefits. I mean it like saying to the cw/ce people that they are not good enough to be jws and to the jws it's like saying that the your job is going to cheaper labor. Is this the beginning of the end of the inside wiremen classification? Some locals don't deal in it yet though and I don't see a lot of acceptance among contractors so far. Well at least not yet anyways.


As I said above 

Here they have the "R" program and while there have been times it seems to be pretty accepted program now. It has help grow our local, with new members with a path to becoming "A" wiremen. I wonder how many other locals are growing.
__________________


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> As I said above
> 
> Here they have the "R" program and while there have been times it seems to be pretty accepted program now. It has help grow our local, with new members with a path to becoming "A" wiremen. I wonder how many other locals are growing.
> __________________


Why would the existing A members of the IBEW care about the IBEW "growing" when all of that "growth" is benefitting new members that make half as much?


----------



## brian john

Hack Work said:


> Why would the existing A members of the IBEW care about the IBEW "growing" when all of that "growth" is benefitting new members that make half as much?


Because as our local grew, new union shops opened up, we took a lager share of the market, locked in the top large projects and had more members paying into union programs securing the future for everyone in the local.


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> Because as our local grew, new union shops opened up, we took a lager share of the market, locked in the top large projects and had more members paying into union programs securing the future for everyone in the local.


I understand that, but you didn't read what I said.

The IBEW is a group of men. That group of men were sh1t on by the CE/CW program. As the IBEW program grows, the existing JW's are being benched while the new CE/CW do their job at a much lower rate.

Think about this Brian, why would a man who has been in the IBEW for 20 years care if the IBEW grows when it has left him behind? 

Who cares how many new projects the IBEW gets when they are being worked by a lower class of electrician making half as much?

The IBEW just gave back all those wages, benefits, and better conditions that the men fought for for decades.

Sure, it's great for the IO because they have more dues paying members, but it's not good for the men of the IBEW.

So Brian, if you are sitting in Ed Hill's seat at the IO looking out, you may be happy to find the IBEW has increased marketshare. But it did so by whoring men out at a lower rate. The IO might not care, but the membership sure does.


----------



## brian john

Hack Work said:


> I
> 
> Sure, it's great for the IO because they have more dues paying members, but it's not good for the men of the IBEW.
> 
> So Brian, if you are sitting in Ed Hill's seat at the IO looking out, you may be happy to find the IBEW has increased marketshare. But it did so by whoring men out at a lower rate. The IO might not care, but the membership sure does.


They can either try and gain membership and grow or continue to lose market share. No new members and the retirement will not be worth a dime.


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> They can either try and gain membership and grow or continue to lose market share.


There are other ways to grow and get marketshare. Bringing in new men to do the job of the existing men at half the rate is NOT a good way to do that. For you to defend it is insane.



> No new members and the retirement will not be worth a dime.


No one said not to bring new members in.


----------



## erics37

I wonder what our mandatory paid organizers are doing these days.


----------



## Loose Neutral

brian john said:


> They can either try and gain membership and grow or continue to lose market share. No new members and the retirement will not be worth a dime.


Membership has nothing to do with the market share. We have refused the ce/cw program and have also increased marketshare. The ce/cw program is a wage busting campaign from within. In our local and i'm sure like many others the jw does it all, yeah some tasks are easier compared to others, but it's like having a guy come to your house and give him so much for opening a panel, so much to device out. so much to run wire. Bull**** it's all part of the job and this program is a disgrace to all. It doesn't surprise me though that you would like it.


----------



## Hack Work

Loose Neutral said:


> The ce/cw program is a wage busting campaign from within.


 That's the easiest and most accurate explanation.



> It doesn't surprise me though that you would like it.


Yeah, BJ has definitely shown his true colors on this one.


----------



## fistofbolts

erics37 said:


> I wonder what our mandatory paid organizers are doing these days.


good point. we have two in our local. they get 70k a year. I think we need about 20 more (maybe not at 70k a year)


----------



## Awg-Dawg

Loose Neutral said:


> The ce/cw program is a wage busting campaign from within.


 
Did the members vote this program in?


----------



## Hack Work

Awg-Dawg said:


> Did the members vote this program in?


No. The obscene majority of the membership and the locals themselves are against it. The IO did it.


----------



## Awg-Dawg

Hack Work said:


> No. The obscene majority of the membership and the locals themselves are against it. The IO did it.


So, youre vote counts, only if it agrees with the IO?

Seems like the union needs new leadership.


----------



## Hack Work

Awg-Dawg said:


> So, youre vote counts, only if it agrees with the IO?


 I don't know what this means.

What vote are you talking about?


----------



## Awg-Dawg

Hack Work said:


> I don't know what this means.
> 
> What vote are you talking about?


 
What I mean is, If the majority of the IBEW members don't like the ce/cw program, they would vote to eliminate it.


Or does it not work that way?


----------



## Hack Work

Awg-Dawg said:


> What I mean is, If the majority of the IBEW members don't like the ce/cw program, they would vote to eliminate it.
> 
> 
> Or does it not work that way?


No, it doesn't work that way. It's like voting to eliminate Obamacare, there is no such vote. The only option is to vote out the politicians. And just like with real politics, that's not always so easy and sometimes you are stuck with the lesser of two evils.


----------



## LGLS

Hack Work said:


> Why would the existing A members of the IBEW care about the IBEW "growing" when all of that "growth" is benefitting new members that make half as much?


 You're not seeing the big picture. The CE/W isn't replacing the AJ, they're opening up the smaller work market to IBEW contractors with a labor force that can compete against the nonunion contractor. The CE/W is not supposed to be working on A jobs at all, and if that is the case, AJs need to speak up and file charges if necessary.


----------



## Loose Neutral

IslandGuy said:


> You're not seeing the big picture. The CE/W isn't replacing the AJ, they're opening up the smaller work market to IBEW contractors with a labor force that can compete against the nonunion contractor. The CE/W is not supposed to be working on A jobs at all, and if that is the case, AJs need to speak up and file charges if necessary.


That's the premise, but your being naive.


----------



## Hack Work

IslandGuy said:


> You're not seeing the big picture. The CE/W isn't replacing the AJ, they're opening up the smaller work market to IBEW contractors with a labor force that can compete against the nonunion contractor. The CE/W is not supposed to be working on A jobs at all, and if that is the case, AJs need to speak up and file charges if necessary.


Like I said earlier and other people agreed with, you have no clue what you are talking about.


----------



## Going_Commando

IslandGuy said:


> You're not seeing the big picture. The CE/W isn't replacing the AJ, they're opening up the smaller work market to IBEW contractors with a labor force that can compete against the nonunion contractor. The CE/W is not supposed to be working on A jobs at all, and if that is the case, AJs need to speak up and file charges if necessary.


So then you guys are pushing for livable, fair wages on big jobs, but screw the workers on the small ones? Kinda seems hypocritical to the premise behind the IBEW, no?


----------



## LGLS

Going_Commando said:


> So then you guys are pushing for livable, fair wages on big jobs, but screw the workers on the small ones? Kinda seems hypocritical to the premise behind the IBEW, no?


I'm not pushing for screwing anyone. They're making as much if not more than if doing the same kind of smaller work as when working for a nounion contractor.


----------



## Going_Commando

IslandGuy said:


> I'm not pushing for screwing anyone. They're making as much if not more than if doing the same kind of smaller work as when working for a nounion contractor.


So then what is the advantage of joining the union if you don't even get better pay out of it?

I'm not trying to troll by any means, just trying to understand. I grew up in a non-union area, did a non-union apprenticeship and am a j-man. Just trying to better understand, is all.


----------



## brian john

I have no clue what will work or won't work all we all have is our opinions. I see bringing more workers into the IBEW as a positive if there is a way to get them into the "A". Others see this as poison to workers.

As with ACA only time will tell. But Ed Hill as with President "O" thinks he knows what is best for you and is smarter than others telling him they do not want CE/CW. You get what you got.


----------



## Locknutz

From what I have seen the R workers we have mostly sling MC cable and prefab boxes and such. The RW's (those who have a journeyman's state license) get paid what a third year does can be sub foremans. 

Most of the non government funded commercial jobs are loaded with residential trainees while one or two jw's oversee everything.


----------



## brian john

Locknutz said:


> From what I have seen the R workers we have mostly sling MC cable and prefab boxes and such. The RW's (those who have a journeyman's state license) get paid what a third year does can be sub foremans.
> 
> Most of the non government funded commercial jobs are loaded with residential trainees while one or two jw's oversee everything.


And they have the opportunity to go through an upgrade program.


----------



## Potential11

Going_Commando said:


> So then what is the advantage of joining the union if you don't even get better pay out of it?
> 
> I'm not trying to troll by any means, just trying to understand. I grew up in a non-union area, did a non-union apprenticeship and am a j-man. Just trying to better understand, is all.



I think everyone's situation is different. I started from the bottom and had to take classes to meet the algebra requirements. I took geometry in high school but was long forgotten. So I brushed up on my math skills and worked as I was able to join. I have since then doubled my annual salary and in my opinion have awesome benefit package. 

I would work for Google full time if I had the training.


----------



## Loose Neutral

brian john said:


> And they have the opportunity to go through an upgrade program.


That's called the apprenticeship program. System already in place.


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> And they have the opportunity to go through an upgrade program.


So what? You completely glossed over the part in which they are doing A JW work for half the price. They have effectively given everything back.

Who cares if they could upgrade to A JW's? Why would they want to when all the JW's will be sitting the bench because contractors are using the lower paid men?


----------



## Potential11

Loose Neutral said:


> That's called the apprenticeship program. System already in place.


I think the problem with these CW/CE program is that they can't pass the entry exam or if they do they score too low which they can't get in. 

At one time in our history there were no apprenticeship program so many guys (by the boat) were able to join. Also, there was a time where you needed to know someone in order to get in. Now it is not the case. An applicant must show he can solve word problems, mechanical problems and regular problems. He has to do an interview. So I think that by using this method to allow applicants to get in, has slowed the process for the ibew to get more guys. So they are being more lenient on their entrance and just making these guys jump hurdles to get in.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> So what? You completely glossed over the part in which they are doing A JW work for half the price. They have effectively given everything back.
> 
> Who cares if they could upgrade to A JW's? Why would they want to when all the JW's will be sitting the bench because contractors are using the lower paid men?


When you become a signatory contractor with IBEW, will you use these guys for your jobs? 
Lets say you get a contract to do 10 T-Mobile shops, how would you man it up?


----------



## Loose Neutral

Going_Commando said:


> So then what is the advantage of joining the union if you don't even get better pay out of it?
> 
> I'm not trying to troll by any means, just trying to understand. I grew up in a non-union area, did a non-union apprenticeship and am a j-man. Just trying to better understand, is all.


Basically your getting a smaller rate and in some cases benefits but at reduced amounts. Some rates are split along jurisdiction lines, this basically equates to splitting the rates along the type of work lines and sq ft lines. Small easy work like mc, pvc small store = small pay. Hard work rigid pipe, controls, thinking stuff bigger sites=bigger money. It's Supposed to work this way, but contractors will push the envelope bid big jobs at higher rate and try to use small pay men thus knocking jw out of picture.


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> I think the problem with these CW/CE program is that they can't pass the entry exam or if they do they score too low which they can't get in.


 I don't believe that. The reason why they couldn't get into the A program is because there was no room.



> At one time in our history there were no apprenticeship program so many guys (by the boat) were able to join. Also, there was a time where you needed to know someone in order to get in. Now it is not the case. An applicant must show he can solve word problems, mechanical problems and regular problems. He has to do an interview. So I think that by using this method to allow applicants to get in, has slowed the process for the ibew to get more guys. So they are being more lenient on their entrance and just making these guys jump hurdles to get in.


 That's a load of crap. It's 100% complete garbage. The IBEW has absolutely no problem getting guys. My local had 4,700+ applicants for apprenticeship this year, they brought 43 guys in.


----------



## Loose Neutral

Potential11 said:


> I think the problem with these CW/CE program is that they can't pass the entry exam or if they do they score too low which they can't get in.
> 
> At one time in our history there were no apprenticeship program so many guys (by the boat) were able to join. Also, there was a time where you needed to know someone in order to get in. Now it is not the case. An applicant must show he can solve word problems, mechanical problems and regular problems. He has to do an interview. So I think that by using this method to allow applicants to get in, has slowed the process for the ibew to get more guys. So they are being more lenient on their entrance and just making these guys jump hurdles to get in.


Right we only select the cream of the crop to get in the program. So basically the ce cw program is about cheap labor, not about a path to the A ticket. That path is already in place as stated earlier.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> I don't believe that. The reason why they couldn't get into the A program is because there was no room.
> 
> That's a load of crap. It's 100% complete garbage. The IBEW has absolutely no problem getting guys. My local had 4,700+ applicants for apprenticeship this year, they brought 43 guys in.


You can believe whatever you want.


----------



## Loose Neutral

Bottom line Union or Not our wages are being lowered by this program. Race to the bottom.


----------



## Potential11

Can we impeach Ed Hill?


----------



## Spunk#7

Most union contractors try to use lesser paid members for every "A" job they can sneak em' in on! The BAs look the other way. Anybody speaks up they are out of work! Caught in that "stinkin' vortex of the Book!! Instead of going forward you go backward! DejaVu again!


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> You can believe whatever you want.


Believing has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is that the IBEW has absolutely no problem getting new members. Half of this union section here is guys trying to get in. You are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.


----------



## Hack Work

IslandGuy said:


> You're not seeing the big picture. The CE/W isn't replacing the AJ, they're opening up the smaller work market to IBEW contractors with a labor force that can compete against the nonunion contractor. The CE/W is not supposed to be working on A jobs at all, and if that is the case, AJs need to speak up and file charges if necessary.


What you have just described is the B program that we have had for decades. I know many B members, at least 1 member of this forum was a B member of my local.

The B members do residential and very small commercial work. It works just like you described, and it has been working for a long time.

I have no problem with the B program, no one does. 

What you don't seem to understand is that the entire point of the CE/CW program, the reason why it's different than the existing B program, is because the CE/CW's are supposed to be on full commercial jobs doing the work of A JW's for a lower rate. That's what the IO intended, that's why they made the program.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> Believing has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is that the IBEW has absolutely no problem getting new members. Half of this union section here is guys trying to get in. You are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.


Dude, u aren't even a member in good standing anymore. Stop it.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.


Yeah, buddy. Ignorence. You can believe what u want like I said earlier.


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> Dude, u aren't even a member in good standing anymore. Stop it.


This is yet another instance of you spewing ignorance. I am most certainly a dues paying member in good standing. Not only that, but I have been discussing signing my company up with the local with the BM and a BA recently. We all agreed that it would be best to wait it out for a year or so to see what happens.



Potential11 said:


> Yeah, buddy. Ignorence. You can believe what u want like I said earlier.


"Ignorence"? :laughing:

Wow...

Saying "you could believe what you want" when someone brings facts to the argument that refute what you said is pretty much giving up without being man enough to say you're wrong.


----------



## Potential11

Hack work your just a weasel. Your own words. I don't deal with weasels.


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> Hack work your just a weasel. Your own words. I don't deal with weasels.


Another childish response instead of actually trying to backup the BS you've been spewing about the CE/CW program :laughing:


----------



## Salvatoreg02

Get rid of Ed Hill! His busting at the seams!! It's time for a regime change! Seriously! Bring in real business men...to shape, modify, explore new avenues without jeopardizing the future of the A journeymen who started from the bottom and worked there way to the top.. Put Ed Hill in a financial pickle and see if he can survive today's standards and economic factor. It's hard to make tough decisions from the sidelines...


----------



## Potential11

Quote:
Originally Posted by *rewire*  
_So are you a union contractor now?_

No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.

Pardon me if I misunderstood you are not a union contractor. So, you are a non-union contractor who pays dues.


----------



## Potential11

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Get rid of Ed Hill! His busting at the seams!! It's time for a regime change! Seriously! Bring in real business men...to shape, modify, explore new avenues without jeopardizing the future of the A journeymen who started from the bottom and worked there way to the top.. Put Ed Hill in a financial pickle and see if he can survive today's standards and economic factor. It's hard to make tough decisions from the sidelines...


Ed Hill made $380K in 2012. 

How would you suggest doing that?


----------



## brian john

Loose Neutral said:


> Bottom line Union or Not our wages are being lowered by this program. Race to the bottom.


Our labor cost keep going up.


----------



## Loose Neutral

Potential11 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rewire*
> _So are you a union contractor now?_
> 
> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.
> 
> Pardon me if I misunderstood you are not a union contractor. So, you are a non-union contractor who pays dues.


He's actually referring to the status of the person that was asking. 5 year old story. Hacks aint weasling out of nothing.


----------



## brian john

Potential11 said:


> Ed Hill made $380K in 2012.
> 
> How would you suggest doing that?


380K really is not that much for the size of the organization he controls much less living in or around Washington DC.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Loose Neutral

brian john said:


> Our labor cost keep going up.


So does everyone Else's. Everything goes up.


----------



## Potential11

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]


brian john said:


> Our labor cost keep going up.


This is true. Our 'A' members just received almost $2 raise in the last year. We are cents away from $40 on check and the non union get paid around $25.00


----------



## brian john

Potential11 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rewire*
> _So are you a union contractor now?_
> 
> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.
> 
> Pardon me if I misunderstood you are not a union contractor. So, you are a non-union contractor who pays dues.


Hack is open shop due to some very real health issues, rewire is open shop I think because of the type of work he does, I am a union contactor, have been for almost 30 years.


----------



## brian john

Potential11 said:


> [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]
> 
> This is true. Our 'A' members just received almost $2 raise in the last year. We are cents away from $40 on check and the non union get paid around $25.00


We are hitting 48-50 plus most of my men are over scale and have additional bennies and bonuses.


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rewire*
> _So are you a union contractor now?_
> 
> No, I weaseled my way out of it by bankrupting my company and having my wife start my new company in her name.
> 
> Pardon me if I misunderstood you are not a union contractor. So, you are a non-union contractor who pays dues.


That post that I made was sarcastic. Once again you are speaking out of ignorance. It's clear that all you are doing is trying to attack me because you don't understand the truth about the CE/CW program.


----------



## Potential11

Loose Neutral said:


> He's actually referring to the status of the person that was asking. 5 year old story. Hacks aint weasling out of nothing.


So you say this guy is a union guy?


----------



## brian john

Loose Neutral said:


> So does everyone Else's. Everything goes up.


Let me rephrase that ours have exceed the cost of living increases for I believe the last 5 years, BUT do not make me swear to that.


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> So you say this guy is a union guy?


"This guy" will out electrician you any day of the week.


----------



## brian john

Potential11 said:


> So you say this guy is a union guy?


Hack and rewire were both union members both as noted above operate open shops.


----------



## Potential11

Hack Work said:


> That post that I made was sarcastic. Once again you are speaking out of ignorance. It's clear that all you are doing is trying to attack me because you don't understand the truth about the CE/CW program.


You can think what you want. Feel the way you want to feel too. Answer correct and stop being sarcastic. I don't know you over a cup of coffee so whatever you put down is what I take you for Brahh!


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> Hack and rewire were both union members both as noted above operate open shops.


I don't think Rewire was a working member. Just a signatory shop owner.


----------



## Potential11

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Potential11*  
_So you say this guy is a union guy?_

"This guy" will out electrician you any day of the week.

_*So, I take it the answer is a big NEGATIVE. Well good luck to you on your future endeavors. *_


----------



## Hack Work

Potential11 said:


> _*So, I take it the answer is a big NEGATIVE. Well good luck to you on your future endeavors. *_


I don't even know what the question is.

All I do know is that you turned the conversation from the CE/CW program to my personal union status.

My life is an open book, if you'd like to know more about me, start a thread about me. I love the attention.


----------



## fistofbolts

Potential11 said:


> You can think what you want. Feel the way you want to feel too. Answer correct and stop being sarcastic. I don't know you over a cup of coffee so whatever you put down is what I take you for Brahh!


I think you are confusing hack's comment, he was taking a stab at someone here who apparently bankrupted his union shop, tried to get out of paying the hall for the lost wages etc. then opened up a open shop in his wifes name. hack is good people.


----------



## brian john

fistofbolts said:


> I think you are confusing hack's comment, he was taking a stab at someone here who apparently bankrupted his union shop, tried to get out of paying the hall for the lost wages etc. then opened up a open shop in his wifes name. hack is good people.


I THINK, but could be wrong I believe there is some confusion in a few of their post


----------



## brian john

Hack Work said:


> I don't think Rewire was a working member. Just a signatory shop owner.


Really? I though he was a dues paying member at some point.


----------



## Potential11

I read alot of comments that are kinda split about this new CW/CE program, SOME JW's kinda are for it and some are not. Here in L.A. the program has just took off. The calls I have seen go out are mostly for retail and I say a bunch of guys at hall after they were laid off from a solar project. It wasn't a PLA project I am aware of. I will keep you guys posted how it is maintained here in LOS ANGELES.


----------



## Hack Work

brian john said:


> Really? I though he was a dues paying member at some point.


Could be, but I didn't think so.


----------



## Potential11

brian john said:


> Hack is open shop due to some very real health issues, rewire is open shop I think because of the type of work he does, I am a union contactor, have been for almost 30 years.



Thank you Brian. Hack makes things confusing by not answering directly. I am sure I read he was a open shop. 

So, open shop is non union right?

I am not attacking him. I am just asking questions to verify his position. I definitely understand how life can make its little twists altering our position. I truly believe that life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it.


----------



## Potential11

fistofbolts said:


> I think you are confusing hack's comment, he was taking a stab at someone here who apparently bankrupted his union shop, tried to get out of paying the hall for the lost wages etc. then opened up a open shop in his wifes name. hack is good people.



Maybe I am confusing his comments. I thought I read in your OT that he had worked in a solar field for 2 years asked for his layoff and then found out about his health problem and opened his own shop.


----------



## Hack Work

Jesus Christ I got a stalker. :laughing:

See post #149.


----------



## Loose Neutral

Potential11 said:


> Maybe I am confusing his comments. I thought I read in your OT that he had worked in a solar field for 2 years asked for his layoff and then found out about his health problem and opened his own shop.


Think your confused now, wait to you find out there is only one other person and you on here.


----------



## Salvatoreg02

brian john said:


> 380K really is not that much for the size of the organization he controls much less living in or around Washington DC. You get what you pay for.


You think $380k is peanuts.. Plus all the other benefits he receives, have you lost your mind? He's not running a Fortune 500 company. Don't expect him to get paid more, less yes!!!


----------



## brian john

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You think $380k is peanuts.. Plus all the other benefits he receives, have you lost your mind? He's not running a Fortune 500 company. Don't expect him to get paid more, less yes!!!



You want him to run with the big boys he needs to make a big boys salary, 380K in DC is not all that much about what Big O makes (400k) of course "O" pees away a lot more.

What part of NY are you from?

In some places 120K would be big bucks and others it would be get by money.


----------



## Hack Work

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You think $380k is peanuts.. Plus all the other benefits he receives, have you lost your mind? He's not running a Fortune 500 company. Don't expect him to get paid more, less yes!!!


He's essentially the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation with 750,000 employees.


----------



## Salvatoreg02

brian john said:


> You want him to run with the big boys he needs to make a big boys salary, 380K in DC is not all that much about what Big O makes (400k) of course "O" pees away a lot more. What part of NY are you from? In some places 120K would be big bucks and others it would be get by money.


 And he gets plenty of perks that sweep thru there internal financial audit.


----------



## Salvatoreg02

Hack Work said:


> He's essentially the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation with 750,000 employees.


He wants the job and the position. He can step down and give it to somebody else if he weren't happy. Did you ever think of that!!


----------



## Hack Work

Salvatoreg02 said:


> He wants the job and the position. He can step down and give it to somebody else if he weren't happy. Did you ever think of that!!


No, I didn't think of that. To be honest, your post makes very little sense.

The fact of the matter is that Ed Hill's salary is the absolute last thing you can complain about.


----------



## Switched

uconduit said:


> I'm not exactly sure who the cw/ce benefits. I mean it like saying to the cw/ce people that they are not good enough to be jws and to the jws it's like saying that the your job is going to cheaper labor. Is this the beginning of the end of the inside wiremen classification? Some locals don't deal in it yet though and I don't see a lot of acceptance among contractors so far. Well at least not yet anyways.


I've received phone calls from the locals around here, and that is what they are trying to sell me on.....My guys make more per hour and have better benefits. It would be a great deal for me, but not necessarily for them.


----------



## Potential11

Switched said:


> I've received phone calls from the locals around here, and that is what they are trying to sell me on.....My guys make more per hour and have better benefits. It would be a great deal for me, but not necessarily for them.


you care about your guys?


----------



## Switched

Potential11 said:


> you care about your guys?


Every good business owner does. The people you employ dictate the success of your business. Only a jacka** thinks of themselves. I want to be in business for 30 years, not 3-5.


----------



## Potential11

Switched said:


> Every good business owner does. The people you employ dictate the success of your business. Only a jacka** thinks of themselves. I want to be in business for 30 years, not 3-5.



Hopefullly you are and be prosperous with the all the coming years.


----------



## Phatstax

So.... With all of the discussion about CW/CE and the possible problems it presents to the future employment of JIW and, ultimately our apprentices who will turn out only to face a layoff and hit the road themselves, how do we preserve our referral system? How do we keep the fire of our Brotherhood burning? We have been sold out by Ed Hill and his cronies who care only about themselves and the benefits they receive off of the backs of our labor. The IO is against us because NECA needs composite crews. The NLRB is under attack by Republicans who favor big business over the working class. Our own Brotherhood is fractured. Double booking is rampant, especially on the west coast by our California members, ( not Brothers ).How can we fight back? How so we keep Henry Millers dream alive?


----------



## Phatstax

rewire said:


> a few years ago for every retiree drawing from the pension fund four guys were paying in. Now for every retiree drawing their is only one paying in. The pension fund is going to be upside down soon so it was decided in order to boost those paying into the system a lower paid class of wireman was the answer. The contractor benefited from the lower cost of manpower and the pension fund benefited from more dues paying members.


That seems to be correct. This program is built around the idea of bolstering the pension fund. At the expense of the hard working men and women who fund it. Who ultimately wins in this new program? IO reps and the NECA contractors who will continue to charge top dollar for JIW work while paying CE/CW wages. Hello Walmart. Low wages...always!


----------



## brian john

Phatstax said:


> So.... With all of the discussion about CW/CE and the possible problems it presents to the future employment of JIW and, ultimately our apprentices who will turn out only to face a layoff and hit the road themselves, how do we preserve our referral system? How do we keep the fire of our Brotherhood burning? We have been sold out by Ed Hill and his cronies who care only about themselves and the benefits they receive off of the backs of our labor. The IO is against us because NECA needs composite crews. The NLRB is under attack by Republicans who favor big business over the working class. Our own Brotherhood is fractured. Double booking is rampant, especially on the west coast by our California members, ( not Brothers ).How can we fight back? How so we keep Henry Millers dream alive?


Fire? Maybe an ember, IBEW is a small part of the electrical work force, and much of that is their own doing. Not all of it but some and with blinders on the move down the road of regression.

They need to be a force that unites, in lieu of that they made division their hallmark program for years and years and now they reap the benefits of their short sightedness.

Maybe some in the international are looking to the future and trying to figure out how to organize more members and for the years of looking down their noses at open shop workers, current members may pay a price.

Not saying I am right but it sure seems that way.


----------



## Elite_electrician716

I am in the IBEW 41 in buffalo and am a cw 2. I am aggressively perusing my apprenticeship as that is my long term goal and the jws I work with know my ambition. However I've met cw4 that have no idea what they are doing. I did residential for 4 years I the private sector and see there is alot of work needed to make this program sucessful. Me personally this was just to get my foot in the door but it's discouraging working with people who have no pride no skills and make an average of $3/ more per hr. And yes I am a dues paying brother and I feel if you don't want to be amoung the elite why stick around.


----------



## Bad Electrician

Elite_electrician716 said:


> I am in the IBEW 41 in buffalo and am a cw 2. I am aggressively perusing my apprenticeship as that is my long term goal and the jws I work with know my ambition. However I've met cw4 that have no idea what they are doing. I did residential for 4 years I the private sector and see there is alot of work needed to make this program sucessful. Me personally this was just to get my foot in the door but it's discouraging working with people who have no pride no skills and make an average of $3/ more per hr. And yes I am a dues paying brother and I feel if you don't want to be amoung the elite why stick around.


In any profession there are slackers, as long as their work is not impacting you, you need to keep your eye on the prize. Good luck in your pursuit.


----------



## Bukoamps

I work for local 26. In the same boat . It's a small based company so the only way up is not by the hard work but by politics . The promotions and raises are given to complete slackers/ hacks who are part of a click. Your guys who work very hard in the apprenticeship/ upgrade programs and have gone out and achieved certifications and want to make a big impact in the industry are given the blind eye.


----------



## Elite_electrician716

Agreed. I'm finding it's all about inside politics however like someone said eyes on the prize I know I'll be jw and hopefully running work and that will be my path to steady work so I can do my 20 and retire. God willing


----------



## Live kas

I probably a little late but when I was a cw I got sworn in and started paying dues after 6 months. Then they kept me at the same pay for another year before I finally got in to the apprenticcrship.


----------



## TGGT

My favorite topic.

I completed the ce program. 14,000 verifiable OJT hours before I could turn out. Been carrying my state journeyman license for over 2 years. If the contractor only wanted cheap labor they would have laid me off by now. It's an okay path for those with commercial and industrial experience and previous formal schooling but cw's I generally encourage the apprenticeship.

The program has many flaws but one of the biggest in my local is people would rather hate on it than improve it in any manner. If it's going to exist you might as well try to address it's shortcomings.


----------



## rayelectric721

Elite_electrician716 said:


> Agreed. I'm finding it's all about inside politics however like someone said eyes on the prize I know I'll be jw and hopefully running work and that will be my path to steady work so I can do my 20 and retire. God willing



LOL 20 years?


----------



## Rourk

My local handles this in a great way.

There are some rules for it.

First the job must be under a certain amount(say 500,000).

For every 3 CWCE I believe its 1 JW A wireman.

This lets our contractors bid on smaller scale jobs, like convenient stores, sub shops, etc, taking work away from non union, and sending out a few JW workers and keep book 1 moving.


----------



## Elite_electrician716

I'm currently in the cw program, since I started doing electric my goal was to be in the IBEW. However I turned in over 3000 hrs in pays tubs and was made a cw1b. I had almost another 2000 in which I was off the books. I was told to put in an application, in which I did and the voided my app due to I failed the halls math class by 3 points. After 7 months of residential I obtained a trainee plant electrical maintenance job. ( the company was sold 2 months before I would have went permanent at 18/ per hr and amazing benefits.) I've worked hard for the union I actively attend all union meeting I can afford. I've been loyal and despite making $8.18 per hour after taxes, international and local dues. I recently was offered a private job to start at 15. Verse my 11.00 in the union. But yet they've accepted people that are not even as qualified as me. ( I know I have a lot to learn.) Yet I get the feeling I'm good enough to work in the cw program but not be offered apprenticeship. For 6 years I've wanted apprentiseship. I think the IBEW really needs to consider the people they are allowing them to represent them and look in to what there own agenda is.I really need to evaluate my future for my career and what's good for my family. I feel it's unfair I generally produce more work then the first and second years but get none of the benifits. It's a sad day when I have to contemplate leaving a union I've wanted nothing more then to be apart of.
O I was given credit of 1 hr for every 3 since it was mixes experiance between residential and commercial. Do you really need to ask why we can't recruit any people just starting to come into being an electrician???? 
Also I currently have 5 inspected jobs incuring 2 houses in which they were a house complete rewire.
I'll post what I decided. So my point is don't look down on the cws chances is he's running the same race as you, the whole point the unions started. He's just trying to feed his family and better his career.


----------



## rankin

Elite_electrician716 said:


> I am in the IBEW 41 in buffalo and am a cw 2. I am aggressively perusing my apprenticeship as that is my long term goal and the jws I work with know my ambition. However I've met cw4 that have no idea what they are doing. I did residential for 4 years I the private sector and see there is alot of work needed to make this program sucessful. Me personally this was just to get my foot in the door but it's discouraging working with people who have no pride no skills and make an average of $3/ more per hr. And yes I am a dues paying brother and I feel if you don't want to be amoung the elite why stick around.


I'm an apprentice in one of your sister locals. I work with an apprentice who used to be a CW in 41. He actually got fed up with the same crap you described, and moved out of Buffalo into our jurisdiction to become an indentured apprentice wireman (our local has no CE/CW program).

I can understand the reasoning and intended purpose of the CE/CW program, and there are locals out there that actually do a good job of handling it (Buffalo isn't one of them.) A part of me somewhat envies CWs. I'm working my first job in a construction project of a decent size (the biggest one in my local atm). I love it, but as a young guy I'd be just as happy spending my first year learning the basics in a small-scale commercial project.

The two main problems I see with it are that it's far too easy for both the hall and the contractors to abuse, and most JWs just treat CWs like garbage.

I've heard stories of jobs in Buffalo where it was literally just one JW supervising a gaggle of CWs. What many CWs come to realize is, if the trend continues, topping out will mean having to compete with an endless sea of journeymen to supervise a team of apprentices and CWs just to earn a living. This used to only be a problem in non-union companies, but it seems that the IBEW is becoming what it stands against, in the interest of competitiveness.

But the journeymen themselves deserve some of the blame. It's understandable that they would be ideologically opposed to the program, but their frustrations are taken out on the CWs themselves, who are largely innocent. In Buffalo, from what I've heard, it isn't uncommon for JWs to simply refuse to teach CWs the trade. What they don't realize is that, despite being victims of a poorly implemented program, these newcomers are paying into the pension fund and are the _future_ of the IBEW. If the CWs don't know the trade, the whole point of the program is moot as small-scale customers can get a greater level of talent for the same cost in the non-union side. The CWs themselves will eventually be fed up, too, and get their training elsewhere -- eventually becoming journeymen that are opposed to the brotherhood based on past experience.


----------



## TGGT

The ce/cw program needs to be reformed to be a better path to become skilled JIW's for its participants, and less likely for abuse by contractors.


----------



## Elite_electrician716

Unfortunately I made the decision to leave. I waited for almost 1.5 yr half for my apprenticeship lost my credit. I wasn't willing to lose my house. My new job pays me 4. More an hr gave me paid holidays to start and 2 vaction days just to start


----------



## TGGT

Elite_electrician716 said:


> Unfortunately I made the decision to leave. I waited for almost 1.5 yr half for my apprenticeship lost my credit. I wasn't willing to lose my house. My new job pays me 4. More an hr gave me paid holidays to start and 2 vaction days just to start


Were you riding out the ce/cw program just trying to get into the apprenticeship?


----------



## mpcxl

I was offered a cw-2 classification not too long ago after filling out an apprenticeship application. I turned it down because I was skeptical. Lately, I have been a little upset about my current situation with no benefits, 401k, etc. Its still in the back of my mind and my give the cw program a try next year if there is still an opportunity.

I feel, maybe, since I have some experience working electrical, that the cw program will give me a taste of what its like working in the union and the union to see if I am a worthy candidate for apprenticeship. All said and done, I am 30 y.o., so an apprenticeship may not be my best option anyway considering the 5 years of school. 

BTW, I would be paying union dues and working dues so I dont fully understand the animosity. I believe the cw's around here do smaller commercial work to compete with non-union contractors.

xl


----------



## CGW

Wait... Isn't the CWCE program in lieu of an apprenticeship?

I guess I'm not understanding the overall purpose of the CWCE program if not to become a JW. 

Can someone explain this?


----------



## CGW

BUMP: Anyone know? I was just talking to my nephew about this. I might have told him wrong


----------



## RunningSparky

CGW said:


> BUMP: Anyone know? I was just talking to my nephew about this. I might have told him wrong


In short...it is a way for someone to get into the Union without going through the apprenticeship program. I'm a CE and at my age (40s)...it was the option that felt best for me. You don't have to commit to any length of time like the apprenticeship. However...I will never get paid as much as an apprentice at the same amount of years. I will always be one step behind until I breakout as JW. Also, as an apprentice, you immediately have full ride medical insurance. Whereas, in my case, I was in a lesser plan while a CW, when I leveled up to CE, I got full bennies. 

I've been in for 2-1/2 yrs...but, I can leave anytime I want. Benefits are pretty good though.


----------



## CGW

Hmm.. So the real benefit is a possible higher wage to start, and you might get to move ahead in the program based on previous experience? As opposed to starting at the bottom as an apprentice? Is that about it?


----------



## newbi

CGW said:


> Hmm.. So the real benefit is a possible higher wage to start, and you might get to move ahead in the program based on previous experience? As opposed to starting at the bottom as an apprentice? Is that about it?


You might start out higher than a 1st year, but will make less than 4th and 5th year apprentices. If he wants to be jw through the union he should try to get into the apprenticeship program because the ce/cw system is already broken.


----------



## TGGT

I started as a ce-1, but should've been a ce-2 but was missing some proof of hours. I got my state license and rode out my required 14,000 OTJ hours (versus 10,000 OTJ for most apprentices in my local) 

It was either that or start over as a 1st year, even though I had completed a non-union formal apprenticeship complete with schooling. I too chose the best path for me, but saw first hand the inherent flaws with the program. I always recommend to any low level CW to go through the apprenticeship, and there are some CE's that I think should too because they never had formal schooling which is very valuable.


----------



## CGW

My nephew has no real experience, so I should point him toward the standard apprenticeship?

He's a hard worker and has a job of some kind since he 12.


----------



## RunningSparky

CGW said:


> My nephew has no real experience, so I should point him toward the standard apprenticeship? He's a hard worker and has a job of some kind since he 12.


IMO...someone who is young and who would probably not test high into the CE/CW program, would be more beneficial to apply for apprenticeship. I had formal training and was able to get in as a CW-4. The apprenticeship affords Immediate benefits. 

One other thing to note...in my local, not sure if this is a Union-wide clause...if you, for example, start off as a CW-1and work for a year (2K hrs) and decide you like what you see and decide to go into apprenticeship, you lose those hours and have to start over. That's why I think younger people should just go into apprenticeship. 

My two cents...


----------



## CGW

Makes sense, thanks.


----------



## cabletie

Our local has always had a B program. Now it is called CE/CW. Nothing else has changed. Weather you go straight to A or go through B then to A you do the same 5 year apprentichip. With the B you have a two year layover between 2nd and 3rd year. And for your B years you are on smaller scale jobs. 

It is just another tool to get new talent. Many guys that come in through the B program have previous experience. With the right amount of experience and a good test score you would start as B instead of B apprentice. You still have to do the first two years of the apprentichip, but you would get 3rd year rate for four years. After four years you go into third year A. 

You may make more than third year as a B guy. You may be a B Forman and would not be classified as an apprentice. Once you change over to A you are classified as an apprentice again. 

At least half our local has gone through the B program. There realy is not much animosity in our local. And we have had the program longer than anyone can remember. I went through it 28 years ago. It was a $2.50 raise in pay for me instead of a pay cut. It just takes longer.


----------

