# New Construction



## Bandit1250 (Apr 13, 2013)

Evening gentlemen.

Im helping my cousin build a house for him and his old lady. This will be a 3700 sq foot house with a very big garage/ workshop(connected). The service entrance will be underground and entering in the garage. He is convinced that he needs a 400 amp service and I see no reason for that. I've told him to get me the info so I can do a load calculation but he's taking his sweet time getting that info to me. I do commercial so my question is have any of you installed such a large service for that size house?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I've done several resi 400a services.


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Just do the 400A.. of course it's total overkill.

But imagine you convince him to just put in 200A.. and somehow, someway, he figures out a way to trip the main.. he'll rub that in every chance he can.

"oh yeah, the big shot electrician told me to put in 200A, but I knew it wasn't enough.. sure enough I was right!"

Just let him pay for the 400A.


----------



## Bandit1250 (Apr 13, 2013)

FastFokker said:


> Just do the 400A.. of course it's total overkill.
> 
> But imagine you convince him to just put in 200A.. and somehow, someway, he figures out a way to trip the main.. he'll rub that in every chance he can.
> 
> ...




Ive been leaning towards doing just that. It is his money but i guess trying to help him save it is just gonna cause me headaches. Might have to throw on the amprobe when its all said and done.


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

The customer is always right! 

And when it comes to family... uhh I think you're on vacation or too busy or your license expired. GOTTA GO!


----------



## Bandit1250 (Apr 13, 2013)

Lmao! If it wasnt for the fact that he owns a bobcat, dumptruck, and trackhoe that i might need one day i would of never agreed.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Bandit.,

I know you mention 3700 Sq ft that is pretty good size there and with a big garage/workshop IMO the best answer is just go with class 320 service and be done with it ( mind ya that is a 400 amp resdentail service )

But pick on him a little to see what kind of workshop it will be set up so you can cover your base so if he have all gaz stove et dryer et water heater IMO 200 amp on house side should be ok ( you may have to do the load demand caluation to make sure ) and have 200 amp panel in the garage/workshop that will take care of it.

If he ever mention serious high power useage tools like woodworking or metal or whatever it will be some case you may want to get triphase in instead of common SP 320/400 amp service due some equiment do run on triphase so keep it in your mind on that part.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Bandit1250 (Apr 13, 2013)

You do bring up a very good point sir. Best bet will be a load calc but still need all the info


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> The customer is always right!
> 
> And when it comes to family... uhh I think you're on vacation or too busy or your license expired. GOTTA GO!


I find the customer is pretty rarely right. :laughing:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Bandit1250 said:


> You do bring up a very good point sir. Best bet will be a load calc but still need all the info


Unless you need it I would not even bother with a local calc. Just go 400A.

Forgetting the demand load, I bet you fill up both 200A panels anyway.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Milbank makes a 320A meter w/ 2-200Amp mains that i like to use in such scenarios

~CS~


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Don't you just love it when a dirt digger tells you your job? If this is an underground service and he's digging the trench, you can watch him and say, "Don't hit the gas line, don't hit the water line, it's not deep enough, it's too deep, you missed a spot..."


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Milbank makes a 320A meter w/ 2-200Amp mains that i like to use in such scenarios
> 
> ~CS~


Why would you need the mains? Why not just put the panels side by side?
If it was my house it would have a 400, between the work shop, the hot tub and the pool or whatever a 200 would be cutting it pretty close.
Hell the lighting and general purpose load caulc alone is almost a hundred..


----------



## cowboyznindianz (Mar 4, 2012)

Bandit1250 said:


> Evening gentlemen.
> 
> Im helping my cousin build a house for him and his old lady. This will be a 3700 sq foot house with a very big garage/ workshop(connected). The service entrance will be underground and entering in the garage. He is convinced that he needs a 400 amp service and I see no reason for that. I've told him to get me the info so I can do a load calculation but he's taking his sweet time getting that info to me. I do commercial so my question is have any of you installed such a large service for that size house?


Tell him he needs a 75 Kva x-fmr also....


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Why would you need the mains? Why not just put the panels side by side?
> If it was my house it would have a 400, between the work shop, the hot tub and the pool or whatever a 200 would be cutting it pretty close.
> Hell the lighting and general purpose load caulc alone is almost a hundred..


Really? How? All electric appliances? We did a 6500 sq ft house and 3 bay garage with a 200a service because the load calc came to 118a iirc. Whats your electric bill like? $250 a month?


----------



## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

I do 95% residential and the smallest service I have done on new construction is 400A. If it were my house being built new @ 3700 sq ft I would put a 400A for me. And if I were doing a workshop every receptacle in it would be a dedicated circuit. (although it is over kill its what I would do for myself)


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Really? How? All electric appliances? We did a 6500 sq ft house and 3 bay garage with a 200a service because the load calc came to 118a iirc. Whats your electric bill like? $250 a month?


If you did a 6500 sqft home on a 200 ampere service I feel sorry for the owner. I assume you backstabbed it also. 
Even if it is all gas for The pure number of circuits alone I would put in a 400. Same or less cost than a sub panel.


----------



## Bandit1250 (Apr 13, 2013)

If this was a workshop that he spent 8 hours a day working in then I would have no problem agreeing to a larger service. But he teaches cad drawing at a local high school and has a mowing landscaping business on the side. The most tools I could possibly see him running at any given time is two. There will in all likelyhood be a small mig welder, table saw, etc. But these are things I don't see him using every day. And running dedicated outlets just seems like a waste to me. But as stated above its not my house and not my money.


----------



## MTFULTZ (Apr 27, 2013)

400 amp would cover now and later. Go with it. :thumbsup:


----------



## bk019 (Sep 12, 2012)

I have done some homes that had 600amp and 800 amp services.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> If you did a 6500 sqft home on a 200 ampere service I feel sorry for the owner. I assume you backstabbed it also.
> Even if it is all gas for The pure number of circuits alone I would put in a 400. Same or less cost than a sub panel.


No backstabbing all gas appliances, no AC and the load hasn't got past 75 amps, so maybe you need to go back to math class. 300 feet of customer owned underground from the meter/main also makes a big difference. 400 amp wouldn't give me any more room in the panel either, because a few sub panels were necessary due to how the circuits had to be routed.


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Square footage is not the biggest determination of service size. We all should know that.

Unless you use electricity for everything, you can get away with a pretty small service. My 2300sqft house calculates to something like 75A, if I tripled the sqft, I wouldn't need to jump to a 400A service. 200A would be more than plenty.


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Working on a house with a 400 Amp service. Two main justifications
I have heard for 400 Amp.

1) Biggest EV (Tesla) charger is (have to look it up) 80-90 Amps. Want the 
ability to have two. Easily doable on 400 Amp service. Problematic on
a 200 Amp service.

2) Two 200 amp subpanels each with Solar > 5KW. Fits easily on 400 Amp
panel with the 120% rule.

This is a high-end house in Silicon Valley.


----------



## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

rexowner said:


> Working on a house with a 400 Amp service. Two main justifications
> I have heard for 400 Amp.
> 
> 1) Biggest EV (Tesla) charger is (have to look it up) 80-90 Amps. Want the
> ...


One of my clients has a couple of Tesla's (sweet rides) He has the Model S and the Roadster. They have a few charging options, ask the client which model they and if they have the twin charger or standard and if they have the 60kWh battery or 85kWh battery. On the standard the 50A charger gets you 31 miles per charge hr and the 100A charger gets you 31 miles per charge hr so go with the 50A, if they have the twin charger the 50A gets them 31 miles per charge hr and it goes up about 6 miles per charge hr every 10A's the 100A gets 60-65 miles per charge hr im pretty sure the 100A is going to be more for the charge stations they have in the works however my client has 1 so yours may want one also the other garage has is the 50A. The 85kWh battery does 300 miles on a full charge so it is fully charged overnight (10 hrs) on the 50A. These cars are going to become extremely popular with high end residential customers they smoke a Ferrari off the line and look nothing like a chevy volt


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

electricmanscott said:


> I find the customer is pretty rarely right. :laughing:


and when they are you will probly do it over


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

rexowner said:


> Working on a house with a 400 Amp service. Two main justifications
> I have heard for 400 Amp.
> 
> 1) Biggest EV (Tesla) charger is (have to look it up) 80-90 Amps. Want the
> ...


Good points about the likelihood of charging stations becoming mainstream in the next decade or two. I hadn't considered that.

I've changed my mind. 400A for everyone!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

rexowner said:


> Working on a house with a 400 Amp service. Two main justifications
> I have heard for 400 Amp.
> 
> 1) Biggest EV (Tesla) charger is (have to look it up) 80-90 Amps. Want the
> ...



That big of that charger size I am more tempting to see if they can get it in three phase verison then it will be nice.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> That big of that charger size I am more tempting to see if they can get it in three phase verison then it will be nice.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


.ft th g


----------



## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

frenchelectrican said:


> That big of that charger size I am more tempting to see if they can get it in three phase verison then it will be nice.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


I'm fairly certain they have a 3 phase option, however I'm not as familiar with it.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

rexowner said:


> Working on a house with a 400 Amp service. Two main justifications
> I have heard for 400 Amp.
> 
> 1) Biggest EV (Tesla) charger is (have to look it up) 80-90 Amps. Want the
> ...


you forgot the whole-house tankless water heater


----------



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Bandit1250 said:


> Evening gentlemen.
> 
> Im helping my cousin build a house for him and his old lady. This will be a 3700 sq foot house with a very big garage/ workshop(connected). The service entrance will be underground and entering in the garage. He is convinced that he needs a 400 amp service and I see no reason for that. I've told him to get me the info so I can do a load calculation but he's taking his sweet time getting that info to me. I do commercial so my question is have any of you installed such a large service for that size house?


200a service is more than enough. Think about his machines are going to most likely ran by one person(the homeowner) one at a time. AC are pretty efficient , people usually have gas appliances, so I don't see the load being to high in your case. I do agree with some other poster just make him happy and put a. 320a service.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Elephante said:


> 200a service is more than enough. Think about his machines are going to most likely ran by one person(the homeowner) one at a time. AC are pretty efficient , people usually have gas appliances, so I don't see the load being to high in your case. I do agree with some other poster just make him happy and put a. 320a service.


Who has all gas appliances?? Nobody around here. Maybe, just maybe gas heat. Even then it will get changed out for a heat pump. I have not seen a new gas dryer in twenty years. Maybe a gas cooktop every once in a while but never an oven.


----------



## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Who has all gas appliances?? Nobody around here. Maybe, just maybe gas heat. Even then it will get changed out for a heat pump. I have not seen a new gas dryer in twenty years. Maybe a gas cooktop every once in a while but never an oven.


Where are you from?


----------



## line8 (Mar 27, 2013)

Erik.Schaeffer said:


> I'm fairly certain they have a 3 phase option, however I'm not as familiar with it.


Recently had the experience of a weekend road trip with a Tesla S-85 owner, and these are the "supercharger" specs. Note it's DC that gets pumped into the car from these charge stations. Regained about 192 miles of range in 30 minutes.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Unless you need it I would not even bother with a local calc. Just go 400A.
> 
> Forgetting the demand load, I bet you fill up both 200A panels anyway.


True and if it's all on one level a sub-panel on each side of the house might even save money.


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> you forgot the whole-house tankless water heater


I don't install many tankless electric heaters other than tiny point
of use, e.g. for a sink.

I work mostly in urban/suburban where natural gas comes from
the street so water heating is 1/3 the cost with natural gas vs.
electricity.

Could be different up in the hills where they have propane. I'm
not sure.


----------



## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

line8 said:


> Recently had the experience of a weekend road trip with a Tesla S-85 owner, and these are the "supercharger" specs. Note it's DC that gets pumped into the car from these charge stations. Regained about 192 miles of range in 30 minutes.


Ofcourse its DC output, its charging a battery  (he needs to provide AC power to the converter) But thanks for the post I didnt know the gas station type "charging stations" were already in use (that means my tesla stock should go up a little more )


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Who has all gas appliances?? Nobody around here. Maybe, just maybe gas heat. Even then it will get changed out for a heat pump. I have not seen a new gas dryer in twenty years. Maybe a gas cooktop every once in a while but never an oven.


I haven't seen a new house with an electric range in years, except for whackos who are afraid of propane tanks. Electricity is pretty pricy here so no one runs electric heat anymore, so that also rules out heat pumps since they need electric heat due to winter temperatures. I still see quite a few electric water heaters, but a lot of people are going with gas or oil boilers with a storage tank for domestic hot water. Heck, the load in most houses here are lights, convenience receptacles, and window air conditioners in bedrooms. You live in a completely different world than I do.


----------



## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> I haven't seen a new house with an electric range in years, except for whackos who are afraid of propane tanks. Electricity is pretty pricy here so no one runs electric heat anymore, so that also rules out heat pumps since they need electric heat due to winter temperatures. I still see quite a few electric water heaters, but a lot of people are going with gas or oil boilers with a storage tank for domestic hot water. Heck, the load in most houses here are lights, convenience receptacles, and window air conditioners in bedrooms. You live in a completely different world than I do.


Yeah, I'm totally accustomed to houses with oil and gas heat and light a/c loads. But in places like Florida and Arizona it's common to have an all electric house including the heat pump and emergency electric heat in the air handler.


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I have electric range and dryer, but gas heat. 

When I build a new house, it'll be ALL electric. But electricity is pretty cheap where I live 7-10cents/kwh.


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

FastFokker said:


> I have electric range and dryer, but gas heat.
> 
> When I build a new house, it'll be ALL electric. But electricity is pretty cheap where I live 7-10cents/kwh.


Coal?


----------



## xaH (Jun 21, 2013)

rexowner said:


> Coal?


I'm guessing hydro at that price.


----------



## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah almost entirely hydro production, by the government.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

*Big resi services*

oops wrong topic


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

FastFokker said:


> Yeah almost entirely hydro production, by the government.


Tidal, river?


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Tidal, river?


Probably river since he is in Canuckistan. Unless propane is a lot more money than here, gas is still cheaper than electric, especially for heat.


----------

