# Compliant or Not



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dennis ., if you want my option ? IMO it is not really compliant at all .,

Look at the countertop where is the receptacle due it is over three feet there, 

I am not up to the speed with 2017 edition yet but I am plan to review it once I get new NEC 2017 edition come in.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dennis ., if you want my option ? IMO it is not really compliant at all .,
> 
> Look at the countertop where is the receptacle due it is over three feet there,
> 
> I am not up to the speed with 2017 edition yet but I am plan to review it once I get new NEC 2017 edition come in.


Looks like countertop ends at 11inches and they added a 3ft wide island?

Ok, not island but I dont think its part of the countertop. I'd put an outlet there anyways for convenience.

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> Looks like countertop ends at 11inches and they added a 3ft wide island?
> 
> Ok, not island but I dont think its part of the countertop. I'd put an outlet there anyways for convenience.
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


Agreed.

It's a peninsula. And it has the same likelihood of having an appliance on it along the wall as any other part of the counter, so it gets an outlet according to the logical 2' long cord spacing of 4'.

Who cares what code says? Code is stupid. The fact that we are here talking about this proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It's a peninsula. And it has the same likelihood of having an appliance on it along the wall as any other part of the counter, so it gets an outlet according to the logical 2' long cord spacing of 4'.
> 
> Who cares what code says? Code is stupid. The fact that we are here talking about this proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.


Code is about safety not convenience.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Those are the biggest receptacles I've ever seen.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Not compliant here (I know because I lost an argument with an inspector).


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

MikeFL said:


> Those are the biggest receptacles I've ever seen.


Looks like a nice refrigerator though.

Agree with Trenton.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> Not compliant here (I know because I lost an argument with an inspector).



You probably lost the argument with the inspector because he is in a position of more power than you and money is involved. Usually . I get in lots of situations where the code backs me up perfectly, but the inspector doesn't understand or know the code sufficiently so I have to make a "fix" just to get to a point where I can collect the payment for the job. It is not worth the time and energy to try to fight it usually unless they pull this trick at final and you would have to remove some wallboard to give them what they want.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Bird dog said:


> Code is about safety not convenience.


Safety is the reason why they shortened the countertop appliance cords to 2' long therefore requiring the 4' outlet spacing.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is not a question of what you or I would do but rather a simple question if this is a compliant install.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Not compliant


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

tmessner said:


> Not compliant


It is compliant


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Because the "peninsula" is not part of the kitchen counter?


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## Mouser (May 4, 2011)

Dennis, what's your take on why the CMP changed the location of where it's to be measured from?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

tmessner said:


> Because the "peninsula" is not part of the kitchen counter?


That is correct. The peninsular used to say it started at the connecting edge but now states that the peninsula starts at the wall. If only one receptacle is required to serve the peninsula then the one at the end would suffice. Crazy but I don't think the code panel was thinking about this scenario and in probably all cases there would be one on the wall. It's just not required.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mouser said:


> Dennis, what's your take on why the CMP changed the location of where it's to be measured from?


I think they thought there was a lot of confusion. For instance suppose there was a 2' wide peninsular that was not attached to any countertops --- A peninsula by itself. The problem would be whether the first 2' from the wall was a wall cabinet and the rest a peninsula or not. In that case you need one on the wall for the counter and another would be needed on the peninsular itself. 

I tried writing a proposal for this section. The more I wrote the deeper trouble I was getting into. It wasn't easy to get all scenarios.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It is VERY easy to make the code cover all scenarios of a peninsula and counter, but the code is very stupid and made as convoluted as possible. 

The fact that in 2018 they can't write a few sentences in English to cover a basic code requirement shows what kind of mouth breathers we are dealing with.

But as long as the envelopes of cash keep coming under the table from the manufacturers, all is well with the CMP. Who cares about the other pesky safety requirements of the code lol.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I tried writing a proposal for this section. The more I wrote the deeper trouble I was getting into. It wasn't easy to get all scenarios.


 Writing exceptions & out of the box definitions in your proposal may be your way out. :biggrin:
The length of a peninsula will be considered counertop & have receptacles installed at appropriate distances.


Any peninsula not connected to a wall will be considered an island.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It is VERY easy to make the code cover all scenarios of a peninsula and counter, but the code is very stupid and made as convoluted as possible.
> 
> The fact that in 2018 they can't write a few sentences in English to cover a basic code requirement shows what kind of mouth breathers we are dealing with.
> 
> But as long as the envelopes of cash keep coming under the table from the manufacturers, all is well with the CMP. Who cares about the other pesky safety requirements of the code lol.


It is not easy Hax... Try it.. After you write it I bet someone will come up with some weird scenario that causes issues.

This issue has nothing to do with manufacturers and money...You sound like Peter :surprise:


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Now I remember at our con ed class last winter this was mentioned and the confusion it is causing.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is the decision I got from the city: My customer didn't want a receptacle built into the peninsula.. I told the city that the receptacle was in the wall at the end of the peninsula. They didn't buy it. They consider the dividing line to be parallel to the wall at the front of the counter, if that makes sense.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

99cents said:


> This is the decision I got from the city: My customer didn't want a receptacle built into the peninsula.. I told the city that the receptacle was in the wall at the end of the peninsula. They didn't buy it. They consider the dividing line to be parallel to the wall at the front of the counter, if that makes sense.


That makes your city sound stupid. No offense.

So stick one inside, in a drawer or something??

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is not easy Hax... Try it.. After you write it I bet someone will come up with some weird scenario that causes issues.
> 
> This issue has nothing to do with manufacturers and money...You sound like Peter :surprise:


Any 11th grader can write this code article without issue. It might require some back and forth, but it CAN be done. 

There is absolute no excuse for the code to be getting WORSE every 3 years. None. Stop defending them.

And my point about the manufacturers stands. They spend too much time worrying about making the manufacturers money and not enough time fixing the code.

Again, in 2018 there is no reason why we still have the ambiguous articles that people have been complaining about for 20-30 years


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Where's the GFI by the sink?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> That makes your city sound stupid. No offense.
> 
> So stick one inside, in a drawer or something??
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


A receptacle inside a cabinet does not qualify as the required receptacle.



> 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
> provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle
> outlets. *The receptacles required by this section shall be in
> addition to any receptacle that is:*
> ...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Any 11th grader can write this code article without issue. It might require some back and forth, but it CAN be done.
> 
> There is absolute no excuse for the code to be getting WORSE every 3 years. None. Stop defending them.
> 
> ...


Then stop complaining and write a proposal. You want to have some impact-- write it up.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

trentonmakes said:


> That makes your city sound stupid. No offense.
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


Why? They provided me with their definition of the dividing line between countertop and peninsula. How is clarification stupid?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Any 11th grader can write this code article without issue. It might require some back and forth, but it CAN be done.
> 
> There is absolute no excuse for the code to be getting WORSE every 3 years. None. Stop defending them.
> 
> ...


If they can't write, a picture is worth a 1000 words.
The receptacle on the peninsula is not the 'required' peninsula outlet. 

You guys will catch up :devil3:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Then stop complaining and write a proposal. You want to have some impact-- write it up.


They ignore all good proposals, they don’t have have time to worry about clarifying the code because they are too busy filling the manufacturer’s pockets. 

Furthermore, the code making panel shouldn’t need my help to write English. If they can’t do it themselves, they should find competent people who can. Oh, but then who will take care of the manufacturers?? :vs_laugh:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

.....follow the money.....you may end up in Russia 🇷🇺, but follow the money Hack


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

99cents said:


> Why? They provided me with their definition of the dividing line between countertop and peninsula. How is clarification stupid?


I don't know Canadian code so bear with me.

But, according to 2017 NEC, that would be acceptable

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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I got a good laugh out of this. Let's base our answers on the 2017 NEC


So no appliances can be plugged in on the counter along the wall on the right side of the range and that is compliant as per the NEC?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

eddy current said:


> So no appliances can be plugged in on the counter along the wall on the right side of the range and that is compliant as per the NEC?


As it is written, Yes but it is not likely that someone would do this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> As it is written, Yes but it is not likely that someone would do this.


As written by corrupt idiots.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Dennis Alwon said:
> 
> 
> > I got a good laugh out of this. Let's base our answers on the 2017 NEC
> ...


sure they can, just run an extension cord over the range.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

360max said:


> sure they can, just run an extension cord over the range.


Wouldn't be the first time.

Actually, I'm not done renos at my cottage yet, I have an extension cord plugged into the stove to feed the micro :biggrin:

No worries, I have it all under control :vs_laugh:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

emtnut said:


> Wouldn't be the first time.
> 
> Actually, I'm not done renos at my cottage yet, I have an extension cord plugged into the stove to feed the micro :biggrin:
> 
> No worries, I have it all under control :vs_laugh:


Probably quite safe, actually, unless the cord ends up on top of a hot burner.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I do industrial, commercial and ag mostly.


The last time I measured for receptacle layout, was just to get them spaced evenly around the room. Seems a lot simpler than the resi stuff!!


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Cow said:


> I do industrial, commercial and ag mostly.
> 
> 
> The last time I measured for receptacle layout, was *just to get them spaced evenly around the room.* Seems a lot simpler than the resi stuff!!


same here. Or if the architectural drawing specifies placement due to cabinets or something like that.


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## DashDingo (Feb 11, 2018)

Dennis Alwon said:


> As it is written, Yes but it is not likely that someone would do this.




Just like how they tried to require the installation of a equipment grounding conductor on roof tops for hvac where threaded fittings were not used. 
The rain tight compression fittings that everyone uses are threaded fittings because they have threads.
The intent was good but they did just not know how to word it.
Dummies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Unionpride277 (Oct 31, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Dennis Alwon said:
> 
> 
> > Then stop complaining and write a proposal. You want to have some impact-- write it up.
> ...


Hint “afci breakers “
I wounder how many envelopes were passed For this useless code article .

The manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank


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