# Sacreligeous use of #14 romex and other horrors



## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

This is a renovation of a small retail building. Job specs were to be done cheaply as possible so thats what they got. Theres probably more violations than what i can think of: box fill, bundled cables, nothing stapled where it runs across the ceiling joists, but nothing of real concern imo. Anywhere there was a gap behind studs i used that instead of drilling holes. All home runs are 14/3 MWBC except kitchenette (12/3) and 12/2 for bath. Homeline panel... Passed inspection today  Im sure a lot of you on here will say how wrong it is to not wire a commercial building with #12 mc minimum but everyones happy, i made good money on it, and i have no qualms about it not working


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Looks good to me. :thumbsup:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Is the romex in the knee wall (last picture), ran behind the studs, spanning 8' with no supports?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

btharmy said:


> Is the romex in the knee wall (last picture), ran behind the studs, spanning 8' with no supports?


 Looks like it's zip-tied in place every other stud.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

btharmy said:


> Is the romex in the knee wall (last picture), ran behind the studs, spanning 8' with no supports?


Someone drilled it out too..:blink:
Must of been for another trade.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Looks good from my house.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Just wave garlic over it Hippie.....:jester:~CS~


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Do you guys not have a limit to how many cables in one hole?
Inspection here would blow a nut ,if I had a wad of cables through one hole like that.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Big John said:


> Looks like it's zip-tied in place every other stud.


yeah maybe not every othrr stud.. its pretty close to 4.5' though


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Hmacanada said:


> Do you guys not have a limit to how many cables in one hole?
> Inspection here would blow a nut ,if I had a wad of cables through one hole like that.


that wouldnt fly alot of places. the inspector is pretty easy ive done a million things i should have failed for and hes never turned any of it down. no way i was drilling out enough holes to separate those cables properly


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

4SQUARE said:


> Someone drilled it out too..:blink:
> Must of been for another trade.


yeah water line going thru those holes


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Hmacanada said:


> Do you guys not have a limit to how many cables in one hole?
> Inspection here would blow a nut ,if I had a wad of cables through one hole like that.


We do Hma, but then we also see almost every manufactured home pumping as many wires through a hole as can be fit 

~CS~


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

It all looks good to me. I did an office remodel a few months back, and everything was Romex. Its no big deal. Romex works just as good as MC, which works just as good as pipe & wire. Making money and turning over fast jobs - thats where its at buddy.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> It all looks good to me. I did an office remodel a few months back, and everything was Romex. Its no big deal. Romex works just as good as MC, which works just as good as pipe & wire. Making money and turning over fast jobs - thats where its at buddy.


Honestly it somehow feels wrong in a way. I always ran pipe and mc for this kinda thing when i was an employee.. but if i can get away with romex and plastic boxes then why not


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Hippie said:


> ... but if i can get away with romex and plastic boxes then why not


There you go buddy. :thumbsup:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Hippie said:


> Honestly it somehow feels wrong in a way. I always ran pipe and mc for this kinda thing when i was an employee..


I think this is one of the great benefits of being self-employed, you can do these jobs however you like, as long as it passes code minimum.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Hippie said:


> Honestly it somehow feels wrong in a way. I always ran pipe and mc for this kinda thing when i was an employee.. but if i can get away with romex and plastic boxes then why not


No problem with the NMD up in Canada if she is wood frame. 14/2 all the time unless over 15 amps.

My work is much better(<< strike that, not better)/neater than yours. I drill holes, don't bundle, etc. The way it is. As you say you make more money tho.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

According to some study performed by Charles Manson family members in Death Valley,Ca. Bundled cables in the same hole will spontaneously combust in a exploding flame ball.
The CMP believes this as well as the existence of the Tooth Fairy.


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Shockdoc said:


> According to some study performed by Charles Manson family members in Death Valley,Ca. Bundled cables in the same hole will spontaneously combust in a exploding flame ball. The CMP believes this as well as the existence of the Tooth Fairy.


 Seriously , they are ridiculous here for stupid stuff like that . Two wires under a staple..no . Four 14/2 wires through a 4" hole the plumber didn't use .. No. Zip ties as support for cables.. No. Bundling wires together with zip ties.. No. It just goes on and on. What ever happened to safety code? Because some idiot pushed to extremes. Stupid rules appear.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

We await the pictures of the aftermath after the power is turned on. :nuke::nuke::nuke:

:laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hippie said:


> This is a renovation of a small retail building. Job specs were to be done cheaply as possible so thats what they got. Theres probably more violations than what i can think of: box fill, bundled cables, nothing stapled where it runs across the ceiling joists, but nothing of real concern imo. Anywhere there was a gap behind studs i used that instead of drilling holes. All home runs are 14/3 MWBC except kitchenette (12/3) and 12/2 for bath. Homeline panel... Passed inspection today  Im sure a lot of you on here will say how wrong it is to not wire a commercial building with #12 mc minimum but everyones happy, i made good money on it, and i have no qualms about it not working


Clever using the nipples from the panel to keep the Romex concealed. Quick question though, do plastic boxes meet the fire rating necessary on that class building for commercial? I forget which class it is but thought we had to use steel boxes in masonry commercial buildings to meet fire rating.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This is what I think. I've used romex in commercial before, but not in places where there is commercial kitchens elsewhere in the building. Because rats chew romex. And commercial kitchens attract rats. I will just spend the extra bucks on mc cable and hassle with the added labor. 


I started out in this trade back when the *only* thing we used in commercial work was emt or rigid pipe. Even after other methods were allowed in the code, the local inspectors took a long time to adjust to mc cable use. About a decade to be exact.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Clever using the nipples from the panel to keep the Romex concealed. Quick question though, do plastic boxes meet the fire rating necessary on that class building for commercial? I forget which class it is but thought we had to use steel boxes in masonry commercial buildings to meet fire rating.


no its all wood framed no different than a brick house really


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

daveEM said:


> No problem with the NMD up in Canada if she is wood frame. 14/2 all the time unless over 15 amps.
> 
> My work is much better(<< strike that, not better)/neater than yours. I drill holes, don't bundle, etc. The way it is. As you say you make more money tho.


if this was somewhere i didnt have a good relationship with the inspector and the customer was willing to spend more it would look a little nicer. here that was not the case so it is as bare bones as i could get. No one will ever see it anyway after this


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Hippie said:


> No one will ever see it anyway after this


No way. 30 years from now, when this trade is nothing more than plug n play and snap together systems, some "electrician" is gonna find that and it's gonna look like a god damn work of art


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Here in Canada we need Vapour covers over our boxes on any outside wall for residential, we don't use them in commercial because it's non combustable. What designates combustable from none combustable? 

For instance we used Romex in a commercial job because they used wood framing inside a concrete building. Switching to BX above the t-bar. So does it come down to the framing of what your doing rather then what the building is designated as?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hmacanada said:


> Seriously , they are ridiculous here for stupid stuff like that . Two wires under a staple..no . Four 14/2 wires through a 4" hole the plumber didn't use .. No. Zip ties as support for cables.. No. Bundling wires together with zip ties.. No. It just goes on and on. What ever happened to safety code? Because some idiot pushed to extremes. Stupid rules appear.


I'm not sure about the CEC but all the things that you listed are permissible in the NEC with some caveats of course...

Pete


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I do the romex thing in commercial to beat mc slinger bids. I'll still use 12 for outlets and 14 for lighting. 
I got burned a while ago on the specs for a large service by the tenant so his ec could get the job. I still held the office bid. We wired the whole 2k sq ft space and partitions in three circuits of nm all inside the walls only three tails above the ceiling transitioning to conduit. They were less than underjoyed when the copy machine would trip have the offices out.
The rooftop service outlet was gfci protected from the executives bathroom.
Purely cheap.


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## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Clever using the nipples from the panel to keep the Romex concealed.


Isn't that a code violation though? I thought that romex was required to be secured with 12 inches of the box.

Cheers!

Jim


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Theyre "secured" where they start going thru the holes in the joists. which is about 12" from the end of that pipe. I figure it beats having them exposed or boxing in w sheetrock. The only thing i dont like about it is that i had to offset them to get in front of the joist thats against the block, and that doesnt look that great in 18" of 2" pipe


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

Hippie said:


> ive done a million things i should have failed for and hes never turned any of it down.


Well at least you know it.....but hey wait a minute, isn't that worse?


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Tigerloose said:


> Well at least you know it.....but hey wait a minute, isn't that worse?


maybe.. too many wires in a hole or conduit, not enough straps, stuff like that i will do if i can get away with it. If the customer wants to pay for quality i will give it to them but on this kind of work ill cut a few corners.. I never do anything that could be a hazard/liability.


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

Hippie said:


> If the customer wants to pay for quality i will give it to them


Well as long as you inform the customer.


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