# Grounds and neutrals together



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Include it. If you don't, you're exposing yourself to potential litigation.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is very common, I find it in apartments and condos all the time. They bond neutral to ground in the subpanel inside the unit/apartment as well as the disconnect in the basement by the meters and also in the main service. I usually use it as a way to sell them a panel upgrade.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I always tell them. It's something the code makes clear is a potential safety hazard. Makes selling the job easier IMO too.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Of course you should add it to the list. They have turned the ground into a CCC.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Ditto, for sure.


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## wayne g (Nov 28, 2010)

You are absolutely right the bar creates a problem. The neutrals need to float and the equipment grounds need to be bonded to the panel. Not only would I tell the owner of this unit but I would bring it to the attention of the condo association President with a letter to cover yourself. The way it is wired now is allowing the equipment grounds to carry current "DANGER"


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Some argue the EMF exposure can lead to higher cancer rates.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

BIGRED said:


> I am working in a condo that was rewired 10 years ago. The panel in the unit that I am working in has an existing 100-amp panel with a main fed with 4-wire, 2-hots, 1 -neutral and 1-ground from a meter/100-A disconnect. All of the neutrals and grounds are terminated on seperate bars but are connected together with a factory installed bar going from bar to bar, I know that they should be seperated.
> 
> They question that I have is: I am compiling a list, for the homeowner, of all of the things that I have found that are wrong in this unit, should I mention it to them or leave it off the list and can I be liable for not mentioning it to them?




The reason why you're there is that these people trust you to do their electrical work. Do the right thing and tell them about and offer to correct it. Obviously you're the one who knows the danger even if it's been like this for 10 years.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480 due you get sued alot or is that some kind of standard answer?


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

BIGRED said:


> I am working in a condo that was rewired 10 years ago. The panel in the unit that I am working in has an existing 100-amp panel with a main fed with 4-wire, 2-hots, 1 -neutral and 1-ground from a meter/100-A disconnect. All of the neutrals and grounds are terminated on seperate bars but are connected together with a factory installed bar going from bar to bar, I know that they should be seperated.
> 
> They question that I have is: I am compiling a list, for the homeowner, of all of the things that I have found that are wrong in this unit, should I mention it to them or leave it off the list and can I be liable for not mentioning it to them?


Yes by all means mention it. at the top of the list.
Not only dangerous But A code violation. You cannot force them to fix it.
But it is your duty to notify the owners,and explain the importance of resolveing this problem.


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## slavedriverlivyr (Aug 20, 2010)

wayne g said:


> You are absolutely right the bar creates a problem. The neutrals need to float and the equipment grounds need to be bonded to the panel. Not only would I tell the owner of this unit but I would bring it to the attention of the condo association President with a letter to cover yourself. The way it is wired now is allowing the equipment grounds to carry current "DANGER"


 why not just add a ground bar and seperate


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

slavedriverlivyr said:


> why not just add a ground bar and seperate


That's not even necessary. Just remove the bar that ties the two bars together and be done with it. I wouldn't even ask-- I would do it.


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## slavedriverlivyr (Aug 20, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That's not even necessary. Just remove the bar that ties the two bars together and be done with it. I wouldn't even ask-- I would do it.


 I dont remove the bars they tie the neutrals together factory made some people think if all your grounds are on one side or bar they are seperate.still need ground bar to bond can your way is isolating the ground and not bonding the can BTW most all panels ive had to do any work on in res.if the grounding or bonding isnt correct I FIX IT most times it is removing a bonding screw and adding a ground bar.


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## DontKnowWye (Dec 11, 2010)

slavedriverlivyr said:


> I dont remove the bars they tie the neutrals together factory made some people think if all your grounds are on one side or bar they are seperate.still need ground bar to bond can your way is isolating the ground and not bonding the can BTW most all panels ive had to do any work on in res.if the grounding or bonding isnt correct I FIX IT most times it is removing a bonding screw and adding a ground bar.


Can you please add a couple periods to this gibberish? Some of you people write worse than 1st graders. I know we're all just dumb grunt electrician but let's act like we passed the 4th grade, thanks.


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## yucan2 (Jun 9, 2009)

I have the hardest time following some of these threads. So this condo is romex?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

slavedriverlivyr said:


> I dont remove the bars they tie the neutrals together factory made some people think if all your grounds are on one side or bar they are seperate.still need ground bar to bond can your way is isolating the ground and not bonding the can BTW most all panels ive had to do any work on in res.if the grounding or bonding isnt correct I FIX IT most times it is removing a bonding screw and adding a ground bar.


The bracket does tie the bars together, however if it is a sub panel and the grounds are on one bar and the neutrals on the other then I remove the bar and bond the side where the grounds are installed. 

I believe GE even makes a bar made out of non conductive material just for this purpose but I have never used it. There is no reason to add a ground bar in this install.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

yucan2 said:


> I have the hardest time following some of these threads. So this condo is romex?


Possibly but what does that have to do with the OP's question?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wayne g said:


> The neutrals need to *float *and the equipment grounds need to be bonded to the panel. "DANGER"



The neutrals need to *BE ISOLATED* and the equipment grounds need to be bonded to the panel.

In electrical terms the neutral is not FLOATING unless the system neutral is not bonded at any point in the distribution system.

On another note of the systems we test, normally 480/277 VAC we we remove the neutral/ground disconnect link and megger better than 90% fail, meaning there are downstream grounds on the neutral.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian is dead on; you have to separate them or current will keep circling on the N's and G's.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> 480 due you get sued alot or is that some kind of standard answer?


NO, it's just logic; EC's have to use it most always.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Very simple code rule-Neutral only to be bonded to ground at one location,the main service and that's it! I often wonder why this rule is misunderstood,ignored or controversial.(at least here in Canada).How can it be argued?


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

crosport said:


> Very simple code rule-Neutral only to be bonded to ground at one location,the main service and that's it! I often wonder why this rule is misunderstood,ignored or controversial.(at least here in Canada).How can it be argued?


 
That's what I'd like to know as well. It's come to my attention recently that many furnaces, not in my city but elsewhere and this was the topic of much frustration, have been installed with the neutral and the ground tied together at the furnace and connected into a two prong recepticle. I think this is just dumb.

Run a new circuit with a ground and be done with it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

crosport said:


> Very simple code rule-Neutral only to be bonded to ground at one location,the main service and that's it! I often wonder why this rule is misunderstood,ignored or controversial.(at least here in Canada).How can it be argued?


And often at each separately derived system such as transformers and generators.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> And often at each separately derived system such as transformers and generators.



Or at first disconnecting means........:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Or at first disconnecting means........:whistling2:


If you want to get picky it can be at both. :whistling2:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> If you want to get picky it can be at both. :whistling2:


BBQ have you ever known me to be anything but picky? :no: 
I believe you mean it can be at EITHER but not both....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> BBQ have you ever known me to be anything but picky? :no:
> I believe you mean it can be at EITHER but not both....


You should know better than to mess with me. :laughing: 




> 250.30(A)
> Exception No. 2: *A system bonding jumper at both the
> source and the first disconnecting means shall be permitted
> where doing so does not establish a parallel path for the
> ...


BTW, do you know who I am?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> You should know better than to mess with me. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I figured there would be some exception you would pull up. I should of said USUALLY the bonding can only be done at one place.

Yes I know you are a past member who now posts under a "troll like" name. I wish you would at least make this your profile pic.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I dunno crap. I'm a first year, haven't gone to school yet, but this thread is probably a good place to ask questions.

1) I thought that the neutral had to go all the way back to the transformer? Even though it's grounded there. Isn't it?

2) If the neutral is grounded before the transformer, does it mess things up?

3) If the neutral is grounded, and the ground is a better path "to ground", maybe the ground will fail if something should happen and melt down? Where's the juice gonna go?

Today I had to replace a contactor that melted down. Stuff can melt pretty fast!


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> i figured there would be some exception you would pull up. I should of said usually the bonding can only be done at one place.
> 
> Yes i know you are a past member who now posts under a "troll like" name. I wish you would at least make this your profile pic.



hahahaha!!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And often at each separately derived system such as transformers and generators.


Three wire Dryer, Stove......


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

BIGRED said:


> I am working in a condo that was rewired 10 years ago. The panel in the unit that I am working in has an existing 100-amp panel with a main fed with 4-wire, 2-hots, 1 -neutral and 1-ground from a meter/100-A disconnect. All of the neutrals and grounds are terminated on seperate bars but are connected together with a factory installed bar going from bar to bar, I know that they should be seperated.
> 
> They question that I have is: I am compiling a list, for the homeowner, of all of the things that I have found that are wrong in this unit, should I mention it to them or leave it off the list and can I be liable for not mentioning it to them?


Yes, include it on your list! You would also look more professional if you spelled "separate" correctly on your list and called the "sub panel" what it is and not the "panel.":thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Three wire Dryer, Stove......



Not so much, in that case the neutral is not connected to earth or ground just the frame of the dyer or stove .... unless there is some other connection to earth.


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