# NJ requiring gasketed boxes on outside walls



## HackWork

What's with this new bologna about gasketed boxes being required on outside walls? Anyone know?


----------



## telsa

New Jersey has _discovered_ gaskets ? :blink:


----------



## HackWork

telsa said:


> New Jersey has _discovered_ gaskets ? :blink:


What?


----------



## joebanana

Been like that ever since I can remember here in Cali. That's what the supplied gasket with W/P covers is for. (I guess)


----------



## HackWork

I am talking about electrical boxes installed in outside walls, but facing inwards.

Here is an Arlington vapor box that will satisfy the code, my local inspector said:

View attachment 80730


----------



## papaotis

ive seen those in a big box store, never saw one used:001_huh:


----------



## 3D Electric

Bwahaha. No gasket boxes for us!


----------



## MechanicalDVR

They should change the name from the garden state to the costing money state.


----------



## AllWIRES

I think they do that back in my old stomping grounds, WNY. 

It's to eliminate the drafts from the exterior opening.


----------



## macmikeman

gtfoohere! That will cut the tradewinds and then the house won't be cool.


----------



## flyboy

Jrzy said:


> What's with this new bologna about gasketed boxes being required on outside walls? Anyone know?





Jrzy said:


> I am talking about electrical boxes installed in outside walls, but facing inwards.
> 
> Here is an Arlington vapor box that will satisfy the code, my local inspector said:
> 
> View attachment 80730


I'm guessing the reason is to prevent outside air from migrating into the house? And/or maybe rodents and moisture? 

What did the inspector tell you was the reason when he suggested the Arlingington vapor box? 

More importantly, did he reference where it is in the NEC? Or is this a building code requirement in that particular jurisdiction that he's now required to enforce?

What town, if you don't mind me asking did you run across this issue?

...and thank you for the heads up Hax.


----------



## hardworkingstiff

flyboy said:


> More importantly, did he reference where it is in the NEC? Or is this a building code requirement in that particular jurisdiction that he's now required to enforce?


What he asked.


----------



## MikeFL

It's probably in their energy code.


----------



## AK_sparky

I use those boxes on my house. Keeps the cold drafts down in the winter. Easier than futzing around with vapour barrier and tuck tape.


----------



## emtnut

Building code requires them here in Ont ....


----------



## HackWork

The inspector that I spoke to said there were a few different boxes that would work, but he recommended the Arlington that I posted above because the other boxes required sealant or something (extra work). 

I believe he said it was in the energy code or some crap like that.

I spoke to a contractor who failed a job in Nutley last week because he did not use these boxes. I believe the date that you had to start using them was sometime in late April.

I spoke with another contractor who said this was brought up at his contractor association meeting, but he thought they only meant outside boxes. He didn't realize they meant inside boxes on outside walls.


----------



## Dennis Alwon

This is an energy code thing and from what I understand the gasket box is only needed if there is an exterior box in the same stud space. At least that is how they look at it here in NC.


----------



## HackWork

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is an energy code thing and from what I understand the gasket box is *only needed if there is an exterior box in the same stud space*. At least that is how they look at it here in NC.


That wasn't part of it here Dennis. 

New Jersey likes to be excessive. I wonder if they are going to require the drywall to be caulked to the bottom plate of the wall? Or the molding caulked to the floor? Because if they don't, then a lot more air is going to come in right under the wall than thru the outlet box.


----------



## HackWork

http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/pdf_regs/njac_5_23_3.pdf

§ 5:23-3.18 Energy Subcode
(a) Rules concerning the energy subcode adopted are as follows:
1. Pursuant to authority of P.L. 1975, c. 217, as modified by P.L. 1996, c. 53, the Commissioner hereby adopts the
model code of the International Code Council, known as the International Energy Conservation Code/2015
(IECC/2015), as the energy subcode for New Jersey.
i. Copies of the IECC/2015 may be obtained from International Code Council, 4051 West Flossmoor Road, Country
Club Hills, Illinois 60478-5795.
ii. The model code listed above may be known and cited as the "energy subcode."
(b) The following chapters and sections of the commercial provisions of the energy subcode are amended as follows:

--------------
I'm on my phone and heading to a service call so I can't look thru all that crap right now.

--------------
EDIT: I looked but couldn't find anything in the amendments.


----------



## 99cents

flyboy said:


> I'm guessing the reason is to prevent outside air from migrating into the house? And/or maybe rodents and moisture?
> 
> What did the inspector tell you was the reason when he suggested the Arlingington vapor box?
> 
> More importantly, did he reference where it is in the NEC? Or is this a building code requirement in that particular jurisdiction that he's now required to enforce?
> 
> What town, if you don't mind me asking did you run across this issue?
> 
> ...and thank you for the heads up Hax.


You want a good seal with the vapor barrier for two reasons: To prevent cold air infiltration into the house from the outside and also to prevent condensation in the insulation from inside air. We have two methods we can use in Canada, the gasketed boxes like NuTek or a vapor boot Tuck Taped to the vapor barrier. The holes are sealed with acoustical sealant (not our job).


----------



## hardworkingstiff

Are CO2 monitors becoming a requirement? It seems to me as the houses get tighter and tighter CO2 can become an issue. Especially in the coldest of winter or the hottest of summer.


----------



## HackWork

So apparently it's in the 2015 IECC.

Table R402.4.1.1 Air Barrier and Insulation Installation

Electrical/Phone box on exterior walls

The air barrier shall be installed behind electrical or communications boxes or air-sealed boxes shall be installed.


----------



## PlugsAndLights

Not sure when this became building code here in Ontario, but I'd guess it 
happened same time that outside walls became minimum of 2x6's. Think
that mighta happened in the early 80's. Might not be right about eary 80's,
but it was a long time ago. Like anything else, it's no big deal once you 
get used to it. 
I don't usually use the vapour boxes. Usually just wrap the 2104 box in 
a piece of 6mil plastic about 16"x16". 
P&L


----------



## Nom Deplume

Jrzy said:


> I am talking about electrical boxes installed in outside walls, but facing inwards.
> 
> Here is an Arlington vapor box that will satisfy the code, my local inspector said:
> 
> View attachment 80730


The drywallers router bit should render that gasket ineffective.


----------



## 360max

Problem created; People are inattentive when backing up.
Solution; lets require back up cameras on all cars

Problem created; people buy smart phones and text and drive, 
Solution; lets require automatic breaking for all cars because of inattentive drivers

Problem created; people are too lazy to drive 
Solution; lets invent cars that drive themselves

Problem created; general contractor fails to adequately seal exterior walls
Solution; lets create and require gaskets on all junction boxes

feel free to add


----------



## telsa

The Canadians have been a generation ahead with this standard.

The usual drill is the clear plastic -- pre-formed -- barrier posted here, above.

Holmes on Homes illustrates the standard, time and time, again.

The heat // energy savings are remarkable in northern climes... so the trivial effort is justified. :thumbsup:


----------



## 360max

telsa said:


> The Canadians have been a generation ahead with this standard.
> 
> The usual drill is the clear plastic -- pre-formed -- barrier posted here, above.
> 
> Holmes on Homes illustrates the standard, time and time, again.
> 
> The heat // *energy savings are remarkable in northern climes*... so the trivial effort is justified. :thumbsup:


...give me a break, a properly insulated wall doesn't allow drafts.


----------



## HackWork

360max said:


> ...give me a break, a *properly insulated* wall doesn't allow drafts.


Fiberglass insulation (which is the most commonly used insulation) works well to insulate, but it does absolutely nothing to stop airflow. A draft will blow right thru it.


----------



## MikeFL

In physics heat only goes from hot to cold, never the other way around. Heat is a state function.

When you install a box in an insulated outside wall, the area of the wall occupied by the box has no insulation. 

Heat transfers from inside the room to inside the box and through the outside wall. It has nothing to do with sealing the outside wall. 

If air is allowed to flow freely between the room and the box, this is inefficiency is maximized. If you install the barrier, this inefficiency is minimized.

The result of installing the barrier is the warm air in the room does not freely mix with the cold air in the box.


----------



## 99cents

MikeFL said:


> In physics heat only goes from hot to cold, never the other way around. Heat is a state function.
> 
> When you install a box in an insulated outside wall, the area of the wall occupied by the box has no insulation.
> 
> Heat transfers from inside the room to inside the box and through the outside wall. It has nothing to do with sealing the outside wall.
> 
> If air is allowed to flow freely between the room and the box, this is inefficiency is maximized. If you install the barrier, this inefficiency is minimized.
> 
> The result of installing the barrier is the warm air in the room does not freely mix with the cold air in the box.


On a cold day up where, you can feel the cold air coming into a house through electrical boxes with no vapor seal. It's like a slight breeze.


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> On a cold day up where, you can feel the cold air coming into a house through electrical boxes with no vapor seal. It's like a slight breeze.


Yup. 

Another example is in my bathroom. I put an outlet on the outside wall by my toilet for plugging in the iPad or phone. When the exhaust fan is on and the bathroom door is closed, I can feel a slight breeze of air coming out of that outlet blowing against my leg.


----------



## B-Nabs

Not to mention that where the vapour barrier is compromised, mold on the drywall paper backing is nearly inevitable. At least that's been my experience, but I live in a rainforest.


----------



## 99cents

Jrzy said:


> That wasn't part of it here Dennis.
> 
> New Jersey likes to be excessive. I wonder if they are going to require the drywall to be caulked to the bottom plate of the wall? Or the molding caulked to the floor? Because if they don't, then a lot more air is going to come in right under the wall than thru the outlet box.


Here, the vapour barrier is sealed to the plate with acoustical sealant. Messy stuff.


----------



## HackWork

99cents said:


> Here, the vapour barrier is sealed to the plate with acoustical sealant. Messy stuff.


The vapor barrier we use here is paper on the insulation. :laughing:


----------



## macmikeman

think I'll take a walk on the beach. No amount of sealing will keep out the 1/64'' in length little black ants that come inside in a perfect line and end up on the knife that still has peanut butter on it. Or the magic gecko's that always end up inside everybody house around here.


----------



## 360max

...its another result of manufacturers lobbying.

If your that concerned with this gap, foam insulate it, its a GC's issue IMO, not EC.


I guess we need to install theses on outside walls


----------



## AK_sparky

360max said:


> Problem created; general contractor fails to adequately seal exterior walls
> Solution; lets create and require gaskets on all junction boxes


I've never seen a house where the exterior is sealed like that. Why else would we have vapour barrier inside?



360max said:


> ...give me a break, a properly insulated wall doesn't allow drafts.





Jrzy said:


> Fiberglass insulation (which is the most commonly used insulation) works well to insulate, but it does absolutely nothing to stop airflow. A draft will blow right thru it.


Like Jrzy said: Fiberglass insulation doesn't stop wind at all. It requires relatively still air to be most effective.



MikeFL said:


> In physics heat only goes from hot to cold, never the other way around. Heat is a state function.
> 
> When you install a box in an insulated outside wall, the area of the wall occupied by the box has no insulation.
> 
> Heat transfers from inside the room to inside the box and through the outside wall. It has nothing to do with sealing the outside wall.
> 
> If air is allowed to flow freely between the room and the box, this is inefficiency is maximized. If you install the barrier, this inefficiency is minimized.
> 
> The result of installing the barrier is the warm air in the room does not freely mix with the cold air in the box.


This has nothing to do with heat transfer. It has to do with air mass actually moving in to your house.



360max said:


> ...its another result of manufacturers lobbying.
> 
> If your that concerned with this gap, foam insulate it, its a GC's issue IMO, not EC.


Doubt it was manufacturers. We've had it up here for decades. If was a result of manufacturers you would have had it down there long ago.

It is such a simple, cheap, and overall effective thing to do that I don't understand what you guys are complaining about!


----------



## bobbarker

Gaskets. We don't need no STINKING GASKETS !!!!:jester:


----------



## AK_sparky

bobbarker said:


> Gaskets. We don't need no STINKING GASKETS !!!!:jester:


In Canada we get around it by using gaskets that don't stink! Strawberry scented are special order though.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

Is caulking the cable entries required as well ?


----------



## AK_sparky

MechanicalDVR said:


> Is caulking the cable entries required as well ?


The grey ones have a gasket material that gets pierced by the cable so it seals itself pretty good.

On the vapour boots I cut a hole smaller than the cable so when it forces itself in it seals pretty good as well. If it doesn't I put some tuck tape around it.


----------



## Elec tricka

What about hitting it with the orange great stuff, on new installs I all ready use it on my top /bottom plate penetrations ,it seems it would satisfy code.UL listed and all halloweeny.


----------



## Jarp Habib

360max said:


> ...its another result of manufacturers lobbying.
> 
> If your that concerned with this gap, foam insulate it, its a GC's issue IMO, not EC.
> 
> 
> I guess we need to install theses on outside walls


A CGB for Romex? High dollar connector for cheap rope :-D 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## RePhase277

MikeFL said:


> In physics heat only goes from hot to cold, never the other way around. Heat is a state function.
> 
> When you install a box in an insulated outside wall, the area of the wall occupied by the box has no insulation.
> 
> Heat transfers from inside the room to inside the box and through the outside wall. It has nothing to do with sealing the outside wall.
> 
> If air is allowed to flow freely between the room and the box, this is inefficiency is maximized. If you install the barrier, this inefficiency is minimized.
> 
> The result of installing the barrier is the warm air in the room does not freely mix with the cold air in the box.


You're right on the thermodynamics of heat transfer, but this isn't just about warm matter touching cold matter. This is a fluid dynamics problem also. When the wind causes pressure changes around the building, outside air is sucked into the cracks and crevices. 

Really, I think the building code should be more focused on preventing the drafts in the walls to begin with instead of worrying about gaskets around outlet boxes.


----------



## 99cents

InPhase277 said:


> You're right on the thermodynamics of heat transfer, but this isn't just about warm matter touching cold matter. This is a fluid dynamics problem also. When the wind causes pressure changes around the building, outside air is sucked into the cracks and crevices.
> 
> Really, I think the building code should be more focused on preventing the drafts in the walls to begin with instead of worrying about gaskets around outlet boxes.


Not sure what you're saying. Think of it as a hole in the wall because that's what it is. The gasket helps to seal things up.

We have been sealing vapour barrier penetrations for decades. It goes for every trade, not just us. Building inspectors are just as anal about vapour barriers as electrical inspectors are about AFCI's.

I once owned a house from the 60's. The old fix was after-the-fact with foam gaskets behind the device cover plates. It didn't work. On a very cold day you could feel cold air coming in through the...I don't know what you call them...blade ports on the receptacles.


----------



## MikeFL

InPhase277 said:


> You're right on the thermodynamics of heat transfer, but this isn't just about warm matter touching cold matter. This is a fluid dynamics problem also. When the wind causes pressure changes around the building, outside air is sucked into the cracks and crevices.
> 
> Really, I think the building code should be more focused on preventing the drafts in the walls to begin with instead of worrying about gaskets around outlet boxes.


I'm with you on the draft being where the money is. I could have stated it better. Even if it's sealed 100% against drafts, you'll have thermal convection. 

Take a wood framed stucco house for example, with elastomeric paint on the outside. There really is no way any air should be moving through that wall and the absence of insulation for that small area of the box will result in heat loss to the outside. The gasket does help.

But like you said, get a breeze going through there after the stucco starts to crack or on any construction with poor (or no) vapor barrier, and that air movement is going to cost much more than the absence of a few cubic inches of insulation.


----------



## RePhase277

99cents said:


> Not sure what you're saying. Think of it as a hole in the wall because that's what it is. The gasket helps to seal things up.


I'm saying the gaskets shouldn't be necessary if the outside walls were sealed against air movement better.



> I once owned a house from the 60's. The old fix was after-the-fact with foam gaskets behind the device cover plates. It didn't work. On a very cold day you could feel cold air coming in through the...I don't know what you call them...blade ports on the receptacles.


Slots.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

InPhase277 said:


> I'm saying the gaskets shouldn't be necessary if the outside walls were sealed against air movement better.


Yeah that is where my thoughts were, kind of like trying to stop air movement at the wrong side of the interior wall.


----------



## 99cents

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yeah that is where my thoughts were, kind of
> like trying to stop air movement at the wrong side of the interior wall.


What might be missing in this conversation is the reason it's called a "vapour barrier". Typically, inside air contains more moisture than outside air. The vapour barrier on the inside prevents condensation in the insulation and allows the insulation to breath to the outside.


----------



## HackWork

MikeFL said:


> In physics heat only goes from hot to cold, never the other way around. Heat is a state function.
> 
> When you install a box in an insulated outside wall, the area of the wall occupied by the box has no insulation.
> 
> *Heat transfers from inside the room to inside the box and through the outside wall. It has nothing to do with sealing the outside wall.
> 
> If air is allowed to flow freely between the room and the box, this is inefficiency is maximized. If you install the barrier, this inefficiency is minimized.
> 
> The result of installing the barrier is the warm air in the room does not freely mix with the cold air in the box.*


I'm no expert, I am just really handsome.

The last 3 paragraphs don't make sense to me because the gasket does not stop the air from the room from entering the box. The gasket stops the air from the room from entering the wall. The air from the room can enter the box freely, and that's why the cables that enter are sealed around.

Instead of dealing with these boxes or plastic, they should just make a good quality cover plate with gaskets that seal around the device and also seal to the wall. Those gaskets you can buy at the store don't seal the cover plate to the wall.


----------



## PlugsAndLights

360max said:


> Problem created; People are inattentive when backing up.
> Solution; lets require back up cameras on all cars
> 
> Problem created; people buy smart phones and text and drive,
> Solution; lets require automatic breaking for all cars because of inattentive drivers
> 
> Problem created; people are too lazy to drive
> Solution; lets invent cars that drive themselves
> 
> Problem created; general contractor fails to adequately seal exterior walls
> Solution; lets create and require gaskets on all junction boxes
> 
> feel free to add


OK, I'll add few:

Problem: houses are cold and expensive to heat
Solution: Insulation

Problem: high rates of measles, mumps, rubella, polio etc
Solution: vaccine 

Problem: electricians burnt/killed by arc flashes
Solution: arc flash training, gear, etc 

Problem: people die in relatively slow crashes
Solution: seat belts 

Stupid government. 
P&L


----------



## PlugsAndLights

BTW, proper vapour isn't just for outside walls. Also applies to insulated ceilings,
including bathroom fans. 
P&L


----------



## macmikeman

Damn , the weather sure is nice today. Don't feel anything but cool tradewinds breeze on my skin in my living room. Cowabunga!


----------



## 99cents

macmikeman said:


> Damn , the weather sure is nice today. Don't feel anything but cool tradewinds breeze on my skin in my living room. Cowabunga!


Another advantage to keeping a roll of Tuck Tape in your toolbox - you can wrap it around a guy's face to shut up his big mouth.


----------



## wcord

here you go.


----------



## Switched

How do you go about adding an exterior box retrofit?

Do you have to open up the walls to repair/install the vapor barrier?


----------



## HackWork

Switched said:


> How do you go about adding an exterior box retrofit?
> 
> Do you have to open up the walls to repair/install the vapor barrier?


AFAIK, it's only when opening the walls up.


----------



## Jlarson

****ing energy codes.


----------



## macmikeman

Jlarson said:


> ****ing energy codes.


I'm with you on this one. They are designed ''internationally'' meaning in either New York or Brussels. Both places are cold as hell most of the time. 
1/2 of the planet is tropical. Sticking insulation into exterior walls creates high humidity inside tropical homes. They need to breath. They need to allow air to flow back and forth from inside to outside. Trouble is, they also need to keep those damn centipedes from coming in cause those little bastards hurt like hell when you get one climbing into bed with you at night.


----------

