# T&B Panel and Breakers



## steelersman

a few more pics:


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## paul d.

is this T&B as in, Thomas & Betts ???


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## steelersman

paul d. said:


> is this T&B as in, Thomas & Betts ???


yes.....


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## steelersman

and finally two more:

















I know I know, some of these are kind of redundant. Sorry to bore you. :thumbup:


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## TOOL_5150

Man those burned up really bad! Im voting loose connection between the breaker and stab - breakers fault.

~Matt


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## hurk27

This is not just common to T&B but to any stab type breaker panel with aluminum buss stabs, located in a high moisture areas like laundry room, damp basements, outdoors, Etc..., very common with ITE's also. we use only copper buss panels in these areas, and if outdoors it's a must. of course a little dielectric grease helps too. we dumped T&B panels and service equipment because of failures like this and there meter packs were the worst, we still have about 10 less than a year old meter packs on some town homes that keep loosing the buss connection, which requires the POCO to de energize them before we can try to fix them, and many times you cant because the screws holding the busses together will strip out, so lately we been just changing them out.

About a year after we dumped T&B they also dumped the service line so they are not being made any more. for good reason.


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## guschash

I agree with Hurk27. Mositure and Aluminum bus. I when I see this, its always with aluminum busses. If there is alot of mositure in the area or there is water or cold air getting because the raceway wasn't seal from outside water or cold air.


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## steelersman

I don't understand why you guys think that it would be due to AL buss. Most resi panels from what I recall are AL buss.


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## drsparky

Murry is has aluminum buss, its twin brother Seimens is copper.
GE are copper. I am not sure about Homeline.


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## steelersman

aren't alot of them copper on the inside with a coating of nickel or some other metal that looks like aluminum on the outside?


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## drsparky

steelersman said:


> aren't alot of them copper on the inside with a coating of nickel or some other metal that looks like aluminum on the outside?


Yes GE is like that but Murry is AL.


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## user4818

T&B is an identical clone to Westinghouse/Bryant/Cutler Hammer panel. Much like Siemens/Murray.

You will probably have good luck taking the guts out of a new Cutler Hammer BR panel to replace these. :thumbsup:


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## steelersman

Peter D said:


> T&B is an identical clone to Westinghouse/Bryant/Cutler Hammer panel. Much like Siemens/Murray.
> 
> You will probably have good luck taking the guts out of a new Cutler Hammer BR panel to replace these. :thumbsup:


Yeah I used Cutler Hammer BR breakers to replace the burnt up ones and told the HO that they should start saving money for a changeout. But now you've got me thinking maybe I can just swap out the busbar instead? Do you think that everything will line up the same? You know the mounting holes and all? I've never done this.


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## steelersman

I noticed that in a Cutler Hammer BR panel that the buss is also aluminum. I'm actually thinking that they won't need a new panel or guts because the burnt up part of the buss is clear now. I moved the new replacement breakers farther up to a new clean spot in the panel.


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## MDShunk

Unless the can is piped with conduit, or some other similar compelling reason, I hardly ever replace just the guts. Conduit work is one time where replacing just the guts makes perfect sense.


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## user4818

MDShunk said:


> Unless the can is piped with conduit, or some other similar compelling reason, I hardly ever replace just the guts. Conduit work is one time where replacing just the guts makes perfect sense.


But why trouble yourself with removing the can when the guts can be swapped out one-to-one, as may be the case here? Admittedly this only makes sense where a suitable identical replacement can be obtained.


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## user4818

steelersman said:


> Yeah I used Cutler Hammer BR breakers to replace the burnt up ones and told the HO that they should start saving money for a changeout. But now you've got me thinking maybe I can just swap out the busbar instead? Do you think that everything will line up the same? You know the mounting holes and all? I've never done this.


I'm 99% sure it's an even swap, but you may want to buy a CH BR panel and check before you do anything.


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## MDShunk

Peter D said:


> But why trouble yourself with removing the can when the guts can be swapped out one-to-one, as may be the case here?.


If you can sell the gut swap for the same price as the panel change, that's what you should probably do. The only "value" the customer will ever see will be a shiny new can and a new panel cover, so I'd recommend chaning the whole panel for the perception of value.


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## steelersman

Well in this case the panel is flush mounted inside a finished wall. So therefore a buss replacement would be ideal so as to not have to tear up any drywall.


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## MDShunk

steelersman said:


> Well in this case the panel is flush mounted inside a finished wall. So therefore a but replacement would be ideal so as to not have to tear up any drywall.


Good call.


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## user4818

MDShunk said:


> The only "value" the customer will ever see will be a shiny new can and a new panel cover, so I'd recommend chaning the whole panel for the perception of value.


I understand that very well, and I predicted you were going to say something along those lines. 

It just seems that every time I encounter a buss burnout, getting it back up and running as quickly as possible is of the essence, so a quick "gut change" helps tremendously towards that end. :thumbsup:


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## RePhase277

Change the guts out, and charge them the same anyway! You can justify it quite simply (at least to your own conscience). If you change the whole panel, the customer is paying for the labor and the material. If you change just the guts, the customer is paying for labor, material, and your valuable knowledge of where to source such a beast.:thumbup:.

And if you want to kill a little time, take the grounds and neutrals off and tidy everything up. Except for wrestling the new can into place, panel make-up seems to be the biggest consumer of time anyway.

Bottom line: clean up the innards, swap the guts, put some new breakers in, put on a new panel cover, and hand them a bill for the same as a panel change out.


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## steelersman

That's exactly what I'll do, assuming that they call me back to have anything else done. These people surprisingly enough didn't seem that concerned about the danger of the whole situation. Usually, especially people that don't know about electricity are scared to death about much smaller things than this so I don't know about these folks. I told them that the panel's probably ok for a few months. So I'll see if they really do save up some money and call me back for the changeout. I know I can just change the guts and bill them the same. They won't know the difference. I just need to find out if I can even do it. I guess I just need to buy the new panel and take it with me and hope that it fits and if it doesn't then I'll just changeout the whole damn can! :thumbsup:


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## hurk27

T&B does not make these or any panels any more as I have said they have dumped the line making panels, meter, mains, and meter, panels.

So finding replacement parts, will be a major problem, changing panel guts with something that is not UL listed to be in this panel is setting up a for a law suit. not only next to imposable to get it to line up. 

Cutler Hammer to the rescue, Cutler Hammer has a "UL listed" adjustable guts replacement kit, to fit these panels, it comes with all kinds of brackets with holes in it to adjust to about any panel configuration. and they can be ordered with copper busses I think. 
We have used them when we run into an embedded panel in concrete.

Here is a link to the CH retrofit site:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Marke...ion/Panelboards/RetrofitPanelboards/index.htm
you will need to check out the "Retrofit Interior Kit-
The Lincoin Flex Center" Then find a Cutler Hammer supply house, also I found getteing the right numbers from Cuttler Hammer first works the best by calling 800-330-6479.

Also to note , almost all manufactures of panelboards offer them in both copper busses and alu, if you ask for it , they might have to order it, but they are availble, I find them even at Menards?

So if you are installing one in a high moisture area, try to use copper.


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## steelersman

hurk27 said:


> T&B does not make these or any panels any more as I have said they have dumped the line making panels, meter, mains, and meter, panels.
> 
> So finding replacement parts, will be a major problem, changing panel guts with something that is not UL listed to be in this panel is setting up a for a law suit. not only next to imposable to get it to line up.
> 
> Cutler Hammer to the rescue, Cutler Hammer has a "UL listed" adjustable guts replacement kit, to fit these panels, it comes with all kinds of brackets with holes in it to adjust to about any panel configuration. and they can be ordered with copper busses I think.
> We have used them when we run into an embedded panel in concrete.
> 
> Here is a link to the CH retrofit site:
> http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Marke...ion/Panelboards/RetrofitPanelboards/index.htm
> you will need to check out the "Retrofit Interior Kit-
> The Lincoin Flex Center" Then find a Cutler Hammer supply house, also I found getteing the right numbers from Cuttler Hammer first works the best by calling 800-330-6479.
> 
> Also to note , almost all manufactures of panelboards offer them in both copper busses and alu, if you ask for it , they might have to order it, but they are availble, I find them even at Menards?
> 
> So if you are installing one in a high moisture area, try to use copper.


So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.

And as for the high moisture area, you think copper is better? I would think that aluminum is better for moisture. Seems like copper corrodes alot in high moisture areas. Maybe I'm wrong though considering most plumbing is copper and that is definitely 100% moisture inside of those pipes. :laughing:


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## nrp3

I think its similar to the aluminum vs copper wire debate. In my long (sarcasm) career, I have found that the ones in moist basements tend to be the ones that corrode and die like that. Sometimes the damn screws in the neutral and ground bars can be just as tough to remove. I can't remember whether the BR can be had in a copper buss. Siemens for sure and maybe QO. Those retrofit ones look cool, but I'm sure I'd be waiting for weeks to get one.

If you go the gut change route let us know the cost and how it went. Never tried that.


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## user4818

steelersman said:


> So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.


I'm thinking they will fit. And you like you say, if they don't , you can just swap out the whole panel.


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## hurk27

steelersman said:


> So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.
> 
> And as for the high moisture area, you think copper is better? I would think that aluminum is better for moisture. Seems like copper corrodes allot in high moisture areas. Maybe I'm wrong though considering most plumbing is copper and that is definitely 100% moisture inside of those pipes. :laughing:


Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great, as they are adjustable for all 3 dimensions. and come with a new cover to fit the new setup. so there is no guess work. and when we ordered two to fit two 40 circuit 200 amp ITE panels we had them in 4 days from our supplier.


As for copper being more resistant to moisture that aluminum, well like you said, water doesn't seem to corrode it as bad as aluminum. sure there are some alloys of aluminum that can withstand the weather better than even copper, look at antenna grade aluminum, but it has an anodized finish that protects it, but for the most part almost all aluminum used in electrical conduction is a pure form of aluminum and very subject to corrosion. the oxygen in water, caused the surface of the metal to turn into aluminum oxide, which is not very conductive, which results in heating causing further breaking down of the connection, and even more heating till it just burns up.


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## user4818

hurk27 said:


> Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great,


That's all well and good, but you have to remember that T&B panels were _identical_ to the Wetsinghouse/Challenger stuff that was available at the time. There was no discernible difference between the two. Hopefully Garth will be able to use that to his advantage.

On a related note, I know for a fact that a Murray interior will work in a T&B panel, but the cover fits kinda funky. :whistling2: :laughing:


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## steelersman

hurk27 said:


> Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great, as they are adjustable for all 3 dimensions. and come with a new cover to fit the new setup. so there is no guess work. and when we ordered two to fit two 40 circuit 200 amp ITE panels we had them in 4 days from our supplier.
> 
> 
> As for copper being more resistant to moisture that aluminum, well like you said, water doesn't seem to corrode it as bad as aluminum. sure there are some alloys of aluminum that can withstand the weather better than even copper, look at antenna grade aluminum, but it has an anodized finish that protects it, but for the most part almost all aluminum used in electrical conduction is a pure form of aluminum and very subject to corrosion. the oxygen in water, caused the surface of the metal to turn into aluminum oxide, which is not very conductive, which results in heating causing further breaking down of the connection, and even more heating till it just burns up.


Okay. But just for the record, this particular panel isn't in a damp location. It's a finished basement and I didn't detect any mooisture at all. So I seriously doubt that moisture had anything to do with this problem.


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## hurk27

Basements are not always classified as a damp location, and you might be right as far as moisture being the culprit, but In most of the failures I have seen like this, it was, just that moisture isn't there when you are, doesn't make it so. take the problem when someone doesn't seal the incoming pipe for the service conductors, they come in from out in the cold and cool the panel causing moisture to form on the panel, inside and out, this is one reason for these types of failures, in a laundry room. the moisture isn't there if no laundry is being done but when the washer is being used on the highest water temp, I'll bet it's a little steamy in there, again add the above and you have even more moisture now laden with caustic detergents. this is why it's important to seal the incoming pipe when it comes inside from an outside environment. and the fact the code requires it.

As what Peter has said, you might get lucky and find a panel that match's this one, but all in all it wont be a UL listed fix, and could have implications down the road if something were to go wrong and cause a fire.


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## MDShunk

hurk27 said:


> As what Peter has said, you might get lucky and find a panel that match's this one, but all in all it wont be a UL listed fix, and could have implications down the road if something were to go wrong and cause a fire.


You are 10-thousand percent wrong about that. Panelboards and panelboard cabinets are listed separately. There is no requirement a certain panelboard cabinet be used with a certain panelboard.


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## user4818

MDShunk said:


> You are 10-thousand percent wrong about that. Panelboards and panelboard cabinets are listed separately. There is no requirement a certain panelboard cabinet be used with a certain panelboard.



I can't speak to the issue of listings, other than the fact that I don't care about them. I'll gladly insert different panelboards into different cabinets and not worry about the sky falling or fires or lawsuits. 

But, you're saying it's ok to do that anyway.


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## RePhase277

Peter D said:


> I can't speak to the issue of listings, other than the fact that I don't care about them. I'll gladly insert different panelboards into different cabinets and not worry about the sky falling or fires or lawsuits.
> 
> But, you're saying it's ok to do that anyway.


Yeah, I once had to replace the guts in an ancient panel that was embedded in concrete and piped in IMC. I measured the length and bought a Siemens that was close, but the can depth of the original was alot deeper than what I had bought. Anyway, my angle grinder, tin snips, and super human metal working skills made short work of the problem.

Oh, and the Siemens cover was actually wider than the embedded can, so the panel cover is actually attached to blue plastic masonry anchors drilled into the wall:thumbup:


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## acmax

InPhase277 said:


> Yeah, I once had to replace the guts in an ancient panel that was embedded in concrete and piped in IMC. I measured the length and bought a Siemens that was close, but the can depth of the original was alot deeper than what I had bought. Anyway, my angle grinder, tin snips, and super human metal working skills made short work of the problem.
> 
> Oh, and the Siemens cover was actually wider than the embedded can, so the panel cover is actually attached to blue plastic masonry anchors drilled into the wall:thumbup:


 
Get'er Done:thumbup:


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## bjp_ne_elec

hurk27 said:


> This is not just common to T&B but to any stab type breaker panel with aluminum buss stabs, located in a high moisture areas like laundry room, damp basements, outdoors, Etc..., very common with ITE's also. we use only copper buss panels in these areas, and if outdoors it's a must. of course a little dielectric grease helps too. we dumped T&B panels and service equipment because of failures like this and there meter packs were the worst, we still have about 10 less than a year old meter packs on some town homes that keep loosing the buss connection, which requires the POCO to de energize them before we can try to fix them, and many times you cant because the screws holding the busses together will strip out, so lately we been just changing them out.
> 
> About a year after we dumped T&B they also dumped the service line so they are not being made any more. for good reason.


Hurk - on your comment about ITE - have you only seen in when panels are in somewhat damp conditions?


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## bjp_ne_elec

steelersman said:


> I'm wanting to know what could have caused this to happen to only a few of the breakers. I can only think that it must be from a weak connection and the arcing caused it to constantly heat up and cool down, heat up and then cool down every time the dryer was on until it finally had enough and burned off.


Back the OP's part of the question - could something of caused this to happen short term, or when this occurs, does it imply something that's been degrading over a long duration?

Now my question - was this triggered by one of the breakers going bad and then this caused issues with the surrounding breakers? When I've seen this, it's usually limited to on breaker - but sometimes impact that breaker opposite, as it's plugged in to the same stab.


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## Old Spark

I've never seen T&B panels, but I've see this happen on ITE with plug on breakers to alum. bussing. This was commercial with lots of conduits into the panel, so I ordered an identical panel except with copper bussing. Changing out the bussing only was a snap. Never got another call for problems on that site. Actually I've done 2 or 3 of these and the problems went away.
P.S. getting a new panel was cheaper than ordering the bussing separately.


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## hurk27

bjp_ne_elec said:


> Hurk - on your comment about ITE - have you only seen in when panels are in somewhat damp conditions?


 
The majority of them was in areas of high moisture, but I must say this, ITE breakers somtimes have a miss-alined clips (where it clips on the buss stab) and can be bent over if forced on the buss, this has also caused the above problem, but for the most part, I have found moisture+ AL busses being the cause, as I pointed out above.


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## Lurch

Am I seeing paint over-spray on one of those pictures? Did you see paint on the bus-bars,it could cause that problem.


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## Lurch

Actually the T&B line of breakers is/was being manufactured by Conneticutt Electric a couple of years ago and the Cutler-Hammer match would be their CL style which is only a replacement type line


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## 220/221

I have seen it a hundred times out here, mostly on AC breakers.

It pretty much always on AL bus panels. I found one (A/C) on a panel I installed only _5 years ago_. Now the only resi panels I install now are 40 space, copper bussed Siemans.

Why some and not others? Who knows. Breaker a little bit loose to start with? 


Once the burn starts it becomes progressivly worse as the resistance increases thru the bad connection.


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## TWN75

steelersman said:


> I don't understand why you guys think that it would be due to AL buss. Most resi panels from what I recall are AL buss.


I absolutly HATE aluminum buss i use Square d qo & siemens with copper buss Ive been in the trade fore about 30 years i have seen many ite, murray ,challenger, sylvania panels burn up! ALUMINUM BUSS IS INFERIOR The best i can say is that i put penatrox on the breakers after cleaning the bus stab.
I-T-E had there quad mains some of those i have seen fail were they plug on to aluminum .this is scary the incoming cables are unfused.

You can order cutlerhammer br in copper buss.


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## TWN75

drsparky said:


> Murray is has aluminum buss, its twin brother Seimens is copper.
> GE are copper. I am not sure about Homeline.


Stay away from homeline its aluminum.

COPPER are;
SQUARE D QO
CUTTLERHAMMER CH
SEIMENS [ option]
GE [inferior plug on mains with lugs on meltable plastic]
WADSWORTH

ALUMINUM are;
cutlerhammer br [copper optional]
square d homeline
murray [copper optional]
sylvania
chalenger
t&b
crous hinz
zinsco [inferior]
newer FPE [inferior product]


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## user4818

Wadsworth? :laughing:


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## TWN75

Peter D said:


> Wadsworth? :laughing:


I forgot to say obsoleat


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