# reducing washers



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

cultch said:


> Is there a code in there somewhere that says no reducing washers on 277v? Just wondering and cannot find the code book.


Nope


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Not directly related but, An inspector noticed here in Ontario that we used a reducing washer and said that we need a ground wire. We don't usually pull ground wire through our conduit but this time he said the reducer isnt a good ground, so we changed it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Aegis said:


> Not directly related but, An inspector noticed here in Ontario that we used a reducing washer and said that we need a ground wire. We don't usually pull ground wire through our conduit but this time he said the reducer isnt a good ground, so we changed it.


I do not know if this applies in Canada but reducing washers are listed for grounding by UL.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Got it...but you would use the combo boxes if you were building the run right? Along with 11b boxes where appropriate.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I'd definetyly put a grounding bushing on it.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

I just get sick of the just put whatever kind of box there. Just put a combo box and be done with it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cultch said:


> Got it...but you would use the combo boxes if you were building the run right? Along with 11b boxes where appropriate.





cultch said:


> I just get sick of the just put whatever kind of box there. Just put a combo box and be done with it.


I have no idea what you are asking or describing. :001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Goldagain said:


> I'd definetyly put a grounding bushing on it.


On the end of a fixture whip? :001_huh:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> When piping in 277v lighting you should def use combo boxes so you don't have to use reducing washers for your mc whips. I mean y would you use all 3/4 boxes if you have combo boxes there...stupid if you ask me...however...
> 
> Is there a code in there somewhere that says no reducing washers on 277v? Just wondering and cannot find the code book.


Why would you even care?
The jacket of MC [with exception] isn't even listed as an EGC.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> On the end of a fixture whip? :001_huh:


No, I was visualizing emt for some reason.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

When your piping in a lighting system and your setting your boxes you should grab a combo box. A box that has 3/4 holes and 1/2 holes for the mc connector. Not just grab whatever kind of box ie a all 3/4 box that will then need reducing washers installed. An extra step that doesn't need to be fooled with.

Also when you know you have emg lighting lets say and it'll be 10 wire lets say and you have 4 pipes and you'll have a few mc's y not grab an 11b for that spot. Sure u can throw an extension ring on it but I was trained to put the right box for the right application.

The reason y it upsets me is apparantly that is useless education. You should just grab whatever and not envision what will be happening at that box eventually.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

cultch said:


> When your piping in a lighting system and your setting your boxes you should grab a combo box. A box that has 3/4 holes and 3/8 holes for the mc connector. Not just grab whatever kind of box ie a all 3/4 box that will then need reducing washers installed. An extra step that doesn't need to be fooled with.
> 
> Also when you know you have emg lighting lets say and it'll be 10 wire lets say and you have 4 pipes and you'll have a few mc's y not grab an 11b for that spot. Sure u can throw an extension ring on it but I was trained to put the right box for the right application.
> 
> The reason y it upsets me is apparantly that is useless education. You should just grab whatever and not envision what will be happening at that box eventually.


Maybe it's just your crew. Because what you're describing (using combo boxes and 5 squares) is totally normal everywhere I've been


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cultch said:


> A box that has 3/4 holes and 3/8 holes for the mc connector.


3/8"?:001_huh:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> 3/8"?:001_huh:



6/16. :whistling2:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> A box that has 3/4 holes and 3/8 holes for the mc connector.
> 
> Sure u can throw an extension ring on it but I was trained to put the right box for the right application.


You were trained to use a box with 3/4 and 3/8 KO's?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 6/16. :whistling2:


Helpful


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Cool story.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Bro.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

The lil mc b#t%'s what the 1/2's whateva. Irrelavant to the story.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

What happened Pony was they just ran a bunch of sh%% using all 3/4 boxes. When I say yall shouldn't do that it's not like it's the end of the world but you really SHOULD put the right box there. You really should have in mind what will happen at those boxes and if your not used to that just start getting used to it that's all. It'll make you a better sparky.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> Irrelavant to the story.





Jlarson said:


> Cool.





Jlarson said:


> story.





Big John said:


> Bro.


....:thumbup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> What happened Pony was they just ran a bunch of sh%% using all 3/4 boxes. When I say yall shouldn't do that it's not like it's the end of the world but you really SHOULD put the right box there. You really should have in mind what will happen at those boxes and if your not used to that just start getting used to it that's all. It'll make you a better sparky.


?
Using a box with a 3/8" hole will make you a better sparky?

Settle down Francis.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

This isn't a code violation, just a design mistake.

Maybe I don't understand how large a mistake it is, but why not just explain to the person that they used the wrong hardware, and how to do it differently next time?


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

It's not a large mistake. That's what I did. I just tried to tell them and they were just like use reducing washers. In all honesty I couldn't remember if it was a code violation are just it wasn't the best way. I had an old timer that taught me one way is better do it that way.

Same thing with extension rings. Not a violation but be better.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Celtic said:


> ?
> Using a box with a 3/8" hole will make you a better sparky?
> 
> Settle down Francis.


Knowing that using all holes that take only pipe not mc is dumb and so was my 3/8's typo. MC HOLES WHO CARES!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

cultch said:


> What happened Pony was they just ran a bunch of sh%% using all 3/4 boxes. When I say yall shouldn't do that it's not like it's the end of the world but you really SHOULD put the right box there. You really should have in mind what will happen at those boxes and if your not used to that just start getting used to it that's all. It'll make you a better sparky.


I'm as good as they get brah


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Alright, so someone used boxes with only 3/4" KOs in them and you need to come out of the boxes with 1/2" MC connectors.

Use reducing washers, no issue.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> MC HOLES WHO CARES!



Thats the point!

The jacket on MC does not [generally] qualify as the EGC [250.118 - 10 ].

Why are you making such a big fuss about nothing?


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts cannot be used as the means of equipment ground for metallic raceways with conductors above 250 volts to ground, 250.97. Additional bonding must be used. MC cable already contains an equipment ground conductor; metallic raceways may not. Are reducing washers listed as an effective equipment grounding conductor for circuits rated at more that 250 volts to ground??:001_huh::001_huh:


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Thats the point!
> 
> The jacket on MC does not [generally] qualify as the EGC [250.118 - 10 ].
> 
> Why are you making such a big fuss about nothing?


It's not a big fuss Celtic..I'm just talking shop. This is sorta what happens in the field and I just drop it. It's NOT a big deal but one way is better than the other so why not just put the combo box. Just like an ice cream maker might say to another do you swirl your cone this way or that. 

Y does it have to be a big deal to just talk shop.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

SteveBayshore said:


> Oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts cannot be used as the means of equipment ground for metallic raceways with conductors above 250 volts to ground, 250.97. Additional bonding must be used. MC cable already contains an equipment ground conductor; metallic raceways may not. Are reducing washers listed as an effective equipment grounding conductor for circuits rated at more that 250 volts to ground??:001_huh::001_huh:


We're good to go. We got grounds in our pipe grounds in the mc. All grounded to the box. Not a big deal. Just one way is better. Why mess with reducers???

I stated earlier the thing that upsets me is I think like that and not many others do and I sorta wish I didn't...honestly.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Wrong thread.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> Wrong thread.


Ah, you were trying to stuff a 10-24 in a 10-32 hole.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> ...stupid if you ask me...





cultch said:


> I just get sick ....





cultch said:


> I was trained to put the right box for the right application.
> 
> The reason y it upsets me is .....





cultch said:


> It'll make you a better sparky.





cultch said:


> I had an old timer that taught me one way is better do it that way.
> 
> Same thing with extension rings. Not a violation but be better.





cultch said:


> It's not a big fuss Celtic..


It sure looks like it's a big deal to you.

There is nothing wrong with using 3/4" KO for MC ...in spite of what you may have been taught by an old timer.

What makes a better sparky is a working knowledge of the NEC and any applicable amendments to it that are adapted to the location you are working in.

:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> We're good to go. We got grounds in our pipe grounds in the mc. All grounded to the box. Not a big deal. *Just one way is better. *Why mess with reducers???



Is that *way*, your way only?




cultch said:


> I stated earlier the thing that upsets me is I think like that and not many others do and I sorta wish I didn't...honestly.


If you understood 250, you would understand that there is more than one way to be code compliant....and running EGC's in metallic raceways is not always "better".
It might be better for you as a contractor, but maybe not so much as the paying client....when it is understood that the metallic raceway is often an acceptable EGC.


...but don't beat yourself up here....there is more than one-way-to-skin-a-cat, you just need to learn some of them :thumbsup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Ah, you were trying to stuff a 10-24 in a 10-32 hole.


I'll never learn: I always try to screw the wrong hole.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Is that *way*, your way only?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Celtic...that's why I'm here. I understand it's code compliant. But isn't it better to just put the combo box so you don't have to fuss with the reducers? EGC's in the pipe is spec's on all these jobs around here.

I am here listening not just rambling...rambling too but listening as well:laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Big John said:


> I'll never learn: I always try to screw the wrong hole.


sounds just a tad gay.....


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

cultch said:


> Celtic...that's why I'm here. I understand it's code compliant. But isn't it better to just put the combo box so you don't have to fuss with the reducers? EGC's in the pipe is spec's on all these jobs around here.
> 
> I am here listening not just rambling...rambling too but listening as well:laughing:


I would certainly prefer to see boxes with 1/2" KO's for the whips.....
but if the 3/4"-1/2" donuts are there ....
and the 3/4" KO boxes are there....
and getting the combo box is going to delay the job....
guess what's going in?

...maybe the donuts and the boxes were leftover from another job?

BTW, thanks for being patient w/me :thumbsup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I freaking hate reducing washers. Yea yea its legal but that does not mean it does not suck.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I freaking hate reducing washers. Yea yea its legal but that does not mean it does not suck.


Then the next thing ya know ya run out or they fall all over the place. We got thousands of lights on this job. They didn't all get done like this but as soon as I turned my back they did.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Celtic said:


> I would certainly prefer to see boxes with 1/2" KO's for the whips.....
> but if the 3/4"-1/2" donuts are there ....
> and the 3/4" KO boxes are there....
> and getting the combo box is going to delay the job....
> ...


oh no sweat I appreciate this site so much. That's the thing...11b boxes, 1900 combos, 1900 all 3/4 they were all there but I think the dude didn't like there was only 1 hole on each side to use. the 3/4 boxes gave him an option if he screwed up...no biggie but a boogie I call it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cultch said:


> We got thousands of lights on this job. They didn't all get done like this but as soon as I turned my back they did.


The horror!











Now me, I would be thinking there is that many more I don't have to do.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> sounds just a tad gay.....


 You must not be very familiar with female anatomy. :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> You must not be very familiar with female anatomy. :whistling2:


All I know is they don't think it is funny. :laughing:


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The horror!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL BBQ! That's EXACTLY what I said and I went up to the mezz and pulled wire by myself.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Celtic said:


> Is that *way*, your way only?
> 
> If you understood 250, you would understand that there is more than one way to be code compliant....and running EGC's in metallic raceways is not always "better".
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SteveBayshore said:


> I would never install any conduit system without an EG conductor.:no::no: Under what circumstance would it not be better to have an equipment ground conductor in any conduit run?


 Under what circumstance would it not be better to run #10 for 20A? 

NEC is the minimum, correct?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

SteveBayshore said:


> Celtic said:
> 
> 
> > Is that *way*, your way only?
> ...


Bulletin 97 from NEMA: Steel Conduit and EMT: Proven to Meet the NEC® Requirements for Equipment Grounding

There are other such documents available if you care to do the leg work.

You do realize....a loose set screw on stick of EMT can also be a found on Ground bars...as well as loose wirenuts and so on and so on, etc etc etc.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ..........There are other such documents available if you care to do the leg work..........


Soares Book on Grounding and Bonding is another.


If an installer is sloppy making up raceway fittings, they can just as easily be sloppy making up green wires.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

I always figured that's why they wanted 2. Just increases your odds with some of the shotty work that goes on.


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