# Hot tub question



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I bet it depends on the AHJ. I've never bonded a jacuzzi or hot tub to any part of the pad; remesh or rebar, but I do bond all the metal parts (that aren't already bonded) at the disconnect.


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I just looked at a hot tub job today. The HO is having it installed on a new concrete pad. I told him we will need to bond and yada yada and he told me that the pad is going to be just big enough to fit the tub.(jaccuzzi). Does this need to be bonded..?


 what does the code say?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I say that the area around the tub must be bonded. If there is grass then follow the code on the depth etc. The bonding is not just for concrete.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

If they aren't going to contacting the concrete when they get in or out you should be ok.If not it must be bonded.The last one I did on a slab they built a wood platform 3 feet around the outside of the tub and that pleased the inspector. That sure beat breaking open the concrete to bond it.

You gotta watch that grass each blade must be bonded if they don't mow if often .....:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I say that the area around the tub must be bonded. If there is grass then follow the code on the depth etc. The bonding is not just for concrete.


If you follow the letter of the code this is true. 
Bonding the dirt makes about as much sense as bonding the pool water, which is a joke. :whistling2:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

rewire said:


> what does the code say?


How about you try to help him instead of making comments like this? 

Kirk is obviously a qualified electrician, maybe he just has not done many spas. Besides, this is not exactly a common is a situation, is it?


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> How about you try to help him instead of making comments like this?
> 
> Kirk is obviously a qualified electrician, maybe he just has not done many spas. Besides, this is not exactly a common is a situation, is it?


 Thats the best help you can have is to look at what the code says and then it is just not a bunch of opinions.I think if you are going to ask a question then you should have at least tried to find the answer yourself.I would rather teach a man to fish than just hand him the fish. If it is confusion with an article of the code then siting the article with your question shows that you were trying to find the answer.
I did not besmurch Kirk in any way nor did I question how many that he had done Every class I have ever taken and every class I have ever taught the first thing that is asked is what does the code say.

Don't make this personal.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Well if you didn't mean it that way then I apologize. From the outside that's the way it looked to me. 

Considering the situation, this is not a case of the code being black and white and having a straight answer.


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Well if you didn't mean it that way then I apologize. From the outside that's the way it looked to me.
> 
> Considering the situation, this is not a case of the code being black and white and having a straight answer.


 no foul:thumbsup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

We always ask a topic question and everyone who has an opinion chimes in with an answer.

Always good to debate what the "code" is, since there are grey areas and sometimes you don't know there is a problem until someone points one out.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> If you follow the letter of the code this is true.
> Bonding the dirt makes about as much sense as bonding the pool water, which is a joke. :whistling2:


try bonding a wood deck that has a hot tub on it 3' above grade. What do you do then? Many believe it must be done and I have done it but there is no good direction on how to maintain a code compliant install.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I just went through 680 and I didn't see any reference to existing slab and the hot tub. 

Either I missed it or it is not there ??


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The "Code" says the perimeter surface shall extend for 1m beyond the inside walls and shall include paved and unpaved surfaces.....and yada yada yada......but this pad is going to be the same dimension as the tub so Im interpeting that as I will need to run a copper conductor 4-6 inches below the subgrade around the tub....? which in this case will be the grass...! Thats what im interpeting here....
FWIW Ive probably done about 10 pools, metal, and poured but never a hot tub with a pad the same dimension......Hence my question...Thanks guys...I am going to call the inspector on this I was just wondering what some of your thoughts on this were. ANd I am including the bonding in my bid which will be deducted from the cost if It turns out that I dont need to do it..


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I just went through 680 and I didn't see any reference to existing slab and the hot tub.
> 
> Either I missed it or it is not there ??


I sure never saw it and I sure have never done it - even on interior installations. Anybody have a reference?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I just went through 680 and I didn't see any reference to existing slab and the hot tub.
> 
> Either I missed it or it is not there ??


Well, the slab is new, not existing, and outdoor spas must follow Art680, II. There you will find _*680.26 Equipotential Bonding*_.


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

*(A) Performance.* Equipotential bonding is intended to reduce voltage gradients in the area around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, or outdoor hot tubs by the use of a common bonding grid in accordance with 680.26(B) and (C). 
*(B) Bonded Parts.* The parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub listed in (B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together with a solid copper conductor not smaller than 8 AWG with listed pressure connectors, terminal bars, exothermic welding, or other listed means [250.8(A)]. Equipotential bonding is not required to extend to or be attached to any panelboard, service equipment, or grounding electrode. 
*(1) Conductive Pool, Outdoor Spa, and Outdoor Hot Tub Shells.*
(a) Structural Reinforcing Steel. Unencapsulated structural reinforcing steel secured together by steel tie wires is considered bonded. 
*(2) Perimeter Surfaces.* An equipotential bonding grid shall extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces. The bonding grid shall comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub.
(a) Structural Reinforcing Steel. Structural reinforcing steel [680.26(B)(1)(a)]. _Author’s Comment_: The 2008 NEC does not provide any guidance on the installation requirements for structural reinforcing steel when used as a perimeter equipotential bonding grid.
(b) Alternate Means. Equipotential bonding conductor meeting the following:
(1) 8 AWG bare solid copper bonding conductor.
(2) The bonding conductor shall follow the contour of the perimeter surface.
(3) Listed splicing devices.
(4) Bonding conductor shall be 18 to 24 in. from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) Bonding conductor shall be secured within or under the perimeter surface 4 to 6 in. below the subgrade. 
*(3) Metallic Components.* Metallic parts of the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub structure shall be bonded to the equipotential grid. 
*(4) Underwater Metal Forming Shells.* Metal forming shells and mounting brackets for luminaires and speakers shall be bonded to the equipotential grid. 
*(5) Metal Fittings.* Metal fittings sized 4 in. and larger that penetrate into the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails shall be bonded to the equipotential grid. 
*(6) Electrical Equipment.* Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters, pump motors, and metal parts of pool covers shall be bonded to the equipotential grid. (see *Figure*)
_Exception: Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation is not required to be bonded to the equipotential grid._
*(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors.* Where a double-insulated water-pump motor is installed, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor from the bonding grid shall be provided for a replacement motor.
*(b) Pool Water Heaters.* Pool water heaters shall be grounded and bonded in accordance with equipment instructions. 
*(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.* Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.
_Exception No. 1: Where separated from the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub structure by a permanent barrier.
Exception No. 2: Where located more than 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub structure.
Exception No. 3: Where located more than 12 ft measured vertically above the maximum water level._ *(C) Pool Water.* A minimum conductive surface area of 9 sq in. shall be installed in contact with the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub structure water. This water bond is permitted to consist of metal parts that are bonded in 680.26(B). _Author's Comment_: This section was completely rewritten to clarify equipotential bonding requirements for permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub areas.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

SO the code is saying that the slab has to extend 1 meter beyond the edges of the pool.? or can they keep the dimesions of the slab and I have to bond the ground..?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

captkirk said:


> SO the code is saying that the slab has to extend 1 meter beyond the edges of the pool.? or can they keep the dimesions of the slab and I have to bond the ground..?


I'd say according to the letter of the code either would be legal. See 680.26(B)(2)(b)(5) above.

I think a call to your AHJ would make the most sense. Maybe he has some common sense and will say bond the slab and be done with it. 

Don't forget to have a stub up in the slab for your power. Having access to the tub would be nice so you can pinpoint your stub up.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> An equipotential bonding grid shall extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the *inside* walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub,.....


 
Technically the pad will fall within this area.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Technically the pad will fall within this area.


Yup, which is why it needs to be bonded.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

rewire said:


> *(A) Performance.* Equipotential bonding is intended to reduce voltage gradients in the area around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, or outdoor hot tubs by the use of a common bonding grid in accordance with 680.26(B) and (C).
> *(B) Bonded Parts.* The parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub listed in (B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together with a solid copper conductor not smaller than 8 AWG with listed pressure connectors, terminal bars, exothermic welding, or other listed means [250.8(A)]. Equipotential bonding is not required to extend to or be attached to any panelboard, service equipment, or grounding electrode.
> *(1) Conductive Pool, Outdoor Spa, and Outdoor Hot Tub Shells.*
> (a) Structural Reinforcing Steel. Unencapsulated structural reinforcing steel secured together by steel tie wires is considered bonded.
> ...


 Thanks Pops, I got me the same book here....just looking for some clarfication...


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Is this not a portable spa made of plastic being placed on a new slab? Why would permanently installed rules apply? The HO is having a slab poured to place a spa on. What does that have to do with bonding the re-bar of a permanent spa?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

egads said:


> Is this not a portable spa made of plastic being placed on a new slab? Why would permanently installed rules apply? The HO is having a slab poured to place a spa on. What does that have to do with bonding the re-bar of a permanent spa?


Where do you read that this is a portable spa?


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Yep, depends on the AHJ. Clear as mud.

680, part II, 680.20, "Electrical installations at permanently installed pools shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part II of this article."

That said, I'm wiring a total rehab next to a dwelling which HAD a portable, above ground pool which (I was told) the city made them take down! It could have been electrical, but I wonder if it was because it wasn't fenced.

"...permanently installed pools..." Wonder what that means.


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I just looked at a hot tub job today. The HO is having it installed on a new concrete pad. I told him we will need to bond and yada yada and he told me that the pad is going to be just big enough to fit the tub.(jaccuzzi). Does this need to be bonded..?


This, the original post, references a HO having it installed on a concrete pad. Sounds like a portable spa to me.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Hot tub*

Remember, the NEC is the minimum that you have to do. It is a great reference. If ,in your mind, you want to do extra, that is OK as long as you are not "ADDING" something that the code prohibits.


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

waco said:


> "...permanently installed pools..." Wonder what that means.


 pools that are not permanently installed such as those blow up types


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

egads said:


> This, the original post, references a HO having it installed on a concrete pad. Sounds like a portable spa to me.


A portable spa is a small one,they are usually only 110 with no heater and only hold one or two people. The one he is talking about isn't portable


----------



## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Thanks Pops, I got me the same book here....just looking for some clarfication...


 The only clarification that matters is going to come from your AHJ but if just want an opinion then install the equipotential grid that is required by code and in the manner specified.


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Obvious problem -- "portable" in the context of pools means a pool that can be moved or removed, erected or taken apart. Anything above ground is portable. Anything in the ground isn't.

The article tries to hard to establish a requirement to deal with highly questionable risks.

But what the heck, its only mmmmmoney, right?


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> A portable spa is a small one,they are usually only 110 with no heater and only hold one or two people. The one he is talking about isn't portable


 No the one im talking about is definatly not portable. Its a jaccuzzi J345. But that all depends on your definition of potatble. Ive seen Hot tubs built into pools and in ground ones so I guess it all depends. Im sure if this homeowner was to move he could take it with him....Soooo......I gotta talk to the Man...I personally will bid it with bonding but if it doesnt need to be and someone else bids it without and gets it than im sol....


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

I bet what gets hauled in there (by three or four guys and sometimes a crane) has an acrylic or fiberglass interior, wooden sides and an air switch. Self contained or does it have remote equipment? If it does have a separate heater and pump in an equipment area, then my "portable" theory is out the window. If I get called to run service and connect a spa, I would want it's specs.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

captkirk said:


> The "Code" says the perimeter surface shall extend for 1m beyond the inside walls and shall include paved and unpaved surfaces.....and yada yada yada......but this pad is going to be the same dimension as the tub so Im interpeting that as I will need to run a copper conductor 4-6 inches below the subgrade around the tub....? which in this case will be the grass...! Thats what im interpeting here....
> FWIW Ive probably done about 10 pools, metal, and poured but never a hot tub with a pad the same dimension......Hence my question...Thanks guys...I am going to call the inspector on this I was just wondering what some of your thoughts on this were. ANd I am including the bonding in my bid which will be deducted from the cost if It turns out that I dont need to do it..


i guess since i have never done a spa that was bonded im talking out my arse here but throwing a ground clamp on a piece of rebar and having some copper stick out of the concrete doesnt seem that expensive - put em a ufer in the pad and be done with it


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

nolabama said:


> i guess since i have never done a spa that was bonded im talking out my arse here but throwing a ground clamp on a piece of rebar and having some copper stick out of the concrete doesnt seem that expensive - put em a ufer in the pad and be done with it


Lets first educate the guys who install the concrete slab about leaving a piece of rebar sticking out for a ground clamp :blink:

That should go over really well


----------



## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

I've done 3 or 4- 8 person portable hot tubs on concrete slabs.We never bonded the slab nor did the inspector ask to see it.The tubs are delivered by 2 men with 1 dolly and couple sheets of plywood.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I don't do a huge number of hot tubs, but nearly every one I do is with a permit. Mostly because of the reduced personal liability. I've never done any sort of grounding to the slab, and every one has passed inspection.

I guess different AHJs see the code in different ways.

Rob


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Lets first educate the guys who install the concrete slab about leaving a piece of rebar sticking out for a ground clamp :blink:
> 
> That should go over really well


not leaving a piece of rebar out - put your clamp on with a wire sticking out before the pour


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

nolabama said:


> not leaving a piece of rebar out - put your clamp on with a wire sticking out before the pour


Thats what I do. If you want it done right do it youself.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

cobra50 said:


> I've done 3 or 4- 8 person portable hot tubs on concrete slabs.We never bonded the slab nor did the inspector ask to see it.The tubs are delivered by 2 men with 1 dolly and couple sheets of plywood.


I have a hard time believing an 8 person tub would be considered "portable". :001_huh:

Sure, they are just sitting on the ground, but every real spa I have ever done would not meet the description of portable. Not even close. And I have done dozens of spas.

In fact, spas (680 IV) make no mention of portable or permanent. Only pools do. 
If a spa is installed outdoors it must comply with 680 I & II. There is no mention of complying with 680 III.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Let's be careful here. The copper can connect to the rebar but the rebar cannot be exposed to the soil where it is know to break down. Of course, rebar isn't necessary for a tub but you certainly can use it.


----------



## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

what's a spa?

In my book, a spa is a place where people sit around in towels, like a Turkish Bath or some such.

When is a pool not a pool? When it is a spa.

When is a bath tub not a bath tub? When it is a hot tub.

I wonder why we don't do equipotential bonding on poured slabs under dwelling bath tubs.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

waco said:


> what's a spa?
> 
> In my book, a spa is a place where people sit around in towels, like a Turkish Bath or some such.
> 
> ...


_*NEC Art. 680*_

_II & III. Pools_ - Pools are pools

_IV. Spas and Hot Tubs_ - A spa is a package unit, typically with a fiberglass lining and all associated equipment within the envelope of the unit. 
A hot tub is usually a wooden tub with all the equipment external to the unit.

_VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs_ - A bathtub with bubbles or jets.






waco said:


> I wonder why we don't do equipotential bonding on poured slabs under dwelling bath tubs.


Because it is not required under 680 VII.


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

captkirk said:


> No the one im talking about is definatly not portable. Its a jaccuzzi J345. But that all depends on your definition of potatble. Ive seen Hot tubs built into pools and in ground ones so I guess it all depends. Im sure if this homeowner was to move he could take it with him....Soooo......I gotta talk to the Man...I personally will bid it with bonding but if it doesnt need to be and someone else bids it without and gets it than im sol....


 
All you have to do is run your #8 20 inches out from the water, 4 inches down, and that's your grid.

Code says you need a grid. While I didn't read the entire article, I don't think the code says the concrete must be bonded, only that a grid be bonded to the hot tub. the #8 loop IS the grid


----------



## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

*(2) Perimeter Surfaces.* An equipotential bonding grid shall extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces. The bonding grid shall comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of *four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub*.

How do you interpret the "4 points" clause for a packaged hot tub unit you are placing on top of the slab? There is no reinforcing steel in such a unit. 
Do you run the EGC from a piece of rebar in the slab to a central ground point in the packaged hot tub?


----------



## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

swimmer said:


> *(2) Perimeter Surfaces.* An equipotential bonding grid shall extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces. The bonding grid shall comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of *four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub*.
> 
> How do you interpret the "4 points" clause for a packaged hot tub unit you are placing on top of the slab? There is no reinforcing steel in such a unit.
> Do you run the EGC from a piece of rebar in the slab to a central ground point in the packaged hot tub?





Called my AHJ. He classified my packaged hot tub as a "spa". I am not required to bond to the slab.


----------

