# Confusing Residential sub panel hack



## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

Customer has a sub panel installed outdoors from the main panel in the garage. I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed ( grounds and neutrals separate, no bond, bonding screw in the main panel etc). The previous home owner installed about 10 -15 dedicated circuits in the garage. The dedicated circuit power conductors 9 of them were run to the sub panel and put on 9 circuits breakers. The 9 respective neutral conductors were left in the main panel. 2-3 grounds were run to the sub panel neutral bar no neutral (Neutral bar rusted). 1 breaker in the sub fees a pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. Would this cause a parallel path for current or objectionable current. With the grounds on the rusted neutral most likely a shock hazard. What are your thoughts.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

What are the readings across the mains for curiosities sake?


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

The_Modifier said:


> What are the readings across the mains for curiosities sake?


240


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

If you do not have separate neutral and ground bars in a sub-panel...ummm....I think you know what this means.

"I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed"

Are you..._really???_

Not to beat you up, but it's hard to tell from the OP...is that the main panel pictured? If so, how about a picture of the sub. (I'm assuming that's the main because of the tap.)

There are two wires under #6, and I think I see what would be two-pole circuits but there are zero handle ties...??? Add the corrosion and...ugliness in general...you should quote the guy replacement panels and correcting the neutral/grounding issues.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

If you look closely at the birds nest of wires running along the bottom and up the left side of the panel; there is a ground lug hidden under them. Whoever installed this panel only ran 3 wires. one for each live line and the ground: no neutral. Connected the neutral to the neutral bar instead of the ground lug provided. A veery unsafe hack!


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> If you do not have separate neutral and ground bars in a sub-panel...ummm....I think you know what this means.
> 
> "I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed"
> 
> ...


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

That is the sub. I did not install that sub! I know how to install a sub panel! I’m just showing this hack and asking what type of problems would this cause. Objectionable current? Parallel current path? Read the O post! The 2 pole 20 does have a handle tie red and blue to pool pump! Look closer. I removed the sub, put the pool pump back in the main. And wired the Pool gfi to an un used circuit.
i quoted a new main panel upgrade, and very strongly advised the customer to do so. I also noted it as a disclaimer on our invoice that that panel needs an upgrade.


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## PokeySmokey (Nov 14, 2017)

??? I did not indicate you did the installation (Quote from *PokeySmokey *"Whoever installed this panel only ran 3 wires."). I pointed out there is a ground lug in response you said there was no ground bar, which is true. ( Quote from *hotblueelectric "*... pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. ...") That panel has a ground Lug


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

PokeySmokey said:


> ??? I did not indicate you did the installation (Quote from *PokeySmokey *"Whoever installed this panel only ran 3 wires."). I pointed out there is a ground lug in response you said there was no ground bar, which is true. ( Quote from *hotblueelectric "*... pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. ...") That panel has a ground Lug


That was for Cuba Pete


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> If you do not have separate neutral and ground bars in a sub-panel...ummm....I think you know what this means.
> 
> "I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed"
> 
> ...


That is the sub. I did not install that sub! I know how to install a sub panel! I’m just showing this hack and asking what type of problems would this cause. Objectionable current? Parallel current path? Read the O post! The 2 pole 20 does have a handle tie red and blue to pool pump! Look closer. I removed the sub, put the pool pump back in the main. And wired the Pool gfi to an un used circuit.
i quoted a new main panel upgrade, and very strongly advised the customer to do so. I also noted it as a disclaimer on our invoice that that panel needs an upgrade.


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## treznik (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm curious what the customer is asking you to do. You indicate the main panel needs an upgrade which would likely negate the need for a subpanel, especially one depicted above which is a total mess. I can't understand what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't do any kind of work on this unless it involved a total rewire.


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

treznik said:


> I'm curious what the customer is asking you to do. You indicate the main panel needs an upgrade which would likely negate the need for a subpanel, especially one depicted above which is a total mess. I can't understand what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't do any kind of work on this unless it involved a total rewire.


He originally had a defective cb to his Pool pump which we replaced. I then told him he needed a new sub panel. When we went to do the work we realized the mess and removed the sub panel and removed all the unnecessary 15 dedicated outlets in the garage (installed by previos home owner). Re located circuits in the main and quote a new panel. So far he has not agreed.


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## treznik (Nov 12, 2017)

hotblueelectric said:


> He originally had a defective cb to his Pool pump which we replaced. I then told him he needed a new sub panel. When we went to do the work we realized the mess and removed the sub panel and removed all the unnecessary 15 dedicated outlets in the garage (installed by previos home owner). Re located circuits in the main and quote a new panel. So far he has not agreed.


If you have removed the subpanel you have cured the hazard. Understand the main upgrade recommendation but why continuing to question a subpanel you removed. Trying to help but still a bit confused. In Canada we would have to take out a permit for this kind of work which in the end will be inspected so that kind of forces the customer to do the right thing.


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

treznik said:


> If you have removed the subpanel you have cured the hazard. Understand the main upgrade recommendation but why continuing to question a subpanel you removed. Trying to help but still a bit confused. In Canada we would have to take out a permit for this kind of work which in the end will be inspected so that kind of forces the customer to do the right thing.


No one is understanding the original post. The question?! With the neutrals in the main what does that do Or cause? Objectionable current? Parallel current In the neutrals?


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## dbrickles (Feb 4, 2020)

hotblueelectric said:


> Customer has a sub panel installed outdoors from the main panel in the garage. I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed ( grounds and neutrals separate, no bond, bonding screw in the main panel etc). The previous home owner installed about 10 -15 dedicated circuits in the garage. The dedicated circuit power conductors 9 of them were run to the sub panel and put on 9 circuits breakers. The 9 respective neutral conductors were left in the main panel. 2-3 grounds were run to the sub panel neutral bar no neutral (Neutral bar rusted). 1 breaker in the sub fees a pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. Would this cause a parallel path for current or objectionable current. With the grounds on the rusted neutral most likely a shock hazard. What are your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 152570


Everything I see in this picture is illegal! An accident waiting to happen. For swimming pools see NEC art. 680. For panel boards see NEC art. 408. Is that panel board a NEMA 3R?


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Some of you will hate this but I'll share it anyway. In my youth I did a lot of work for truly cash strapped farmers. They simply would not spend the money to fix something that was still working. Farms have some of the most bogus wiring you will ever run into. In the dairy industry that often is costing the farmer a lot of money that they have no way of knowing about. I sometimes had to do the best I could for them even when I could not entirely fix the installation that I was working on. One example was a somewhat similar feeder supplied panel but without the corrosion on the neutral busbar. At 1 neutral conductor per terminal the panel would often be out of neutral busbar capacity. Sometimes just moving all of the EGCs to an add on EGC busbar would give me enough room on the Neutral busbar to knock it back to one neutral per terminal but not always. I was sometimes mystified by how few neutral busbar terminals the manufacturers had provided. Some of the older ones might have been made prior to the availability of Non Metallic Cable. If the manufacturer had only anticipated one neutral per breaker slot that would be a fairly low number of terminals. Then someone added several Tandem Breakers; For replacement use only my (fanny); and you end up with an overcrowded neutral busbar. I would then install an isolated ground busbar kit and a couple of add on lugs. During that period I kept 3 or more Equipment Grounding Conductor busbar isolating kits on the truck. They are nothing but a pair of plastic insulators that keep the add on EGC busbar clear of the panel's cabinet. With 1 lug on each busbar I could bond them together quite convincingly. I often used a piece of service entry cable scrap conductor just so that it would be large enough for all the neutrals someone might later land on the improvised neutral bar. In many cases the feeder supplied panel would be listed as "Suitable for use as Service Equipment" and the Main Bonding Jumper was installed even though it was in the same building as the source of the feeder. There I would move all of the neutrals to the Isolated EGC busbar and use the smaller, already bonded to the cabinet, original busbar for the EGCs. Since each terminal will take a pair of EGCs that was often easier to do. The you move the feeder neutral conductor to your add on neutral busbar and move the feeder EGC; when they had one; to the panel's original neutral lug. When the didn't have a 4 wire feeder I would run a properly sized EGC in parallel with the Feeder cable. Remember that the old BX cable was not suitable for use as an EGC especially in farm environments involving livestock were corrosion was flippin inevitable.

I will say that I refused to touch anything that I could not leave completely safe. But code compliant with all parts used in conformance with their listing and labeling sometimes not.

--
Tom Horne


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

My guess was the homeowner ran out of breaker space in his main panel and ran the sub panel like a safety switch (no neutral yet fed 240 to use both bus bars). I see however you consolidated the dedicated circuits, eliminating this panel entirely. Why were the lugs double tapped? Reminds me of the time I found a hot tub disconnect shared with a generator inlet 💀

With the sub panel gone why are you concerned with parallel paths and objectionable current?


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

dbrickles said:


> Is that panel board a NEMA 3R?


Come on now. You know the answer to that question. It has factory punched KOs in it. 

-- 
Tom Horne


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## hotblueelectric (Jan 12, 2010)

dbrickles said:


> Everything I see in this picture is illegal! An accident waiting to happen. For swimming pools see NEC art. 680. For panel boards see NEC art. 408. Is that panel board a NEMA 3R?


It’s an older GE outdoor panel


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

hotblueelectric said:


> Customer has a sub panel installed outdoors from the main panel in the garage. I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed ( grounds and neutrals separate, no bond, bonding screw in the main panel etc). The previous home owner installed about 10 -15 dedicated circuits in the garage. The dedicated circuit power conductors 9 of them were run to the sub panel and put on 9 circuits breakers. The 9 respective neutral conductors were left in the main panel. 2-3 grounds were run to the sub panel neutral bar no neutral (Neutral bar rusted). 1 breaker in the sub fees a pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. Would this cause a parallel path for current or objectionable current. With the grounds on the rusted neutral most likely a shock hazard. What are your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 152570


I thought a sub panel in a separate building 
is a code violation as of 2002 ,
separate building needs to feed from meter base not main panel


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

The_Modifier said:


> What are the readings across the mains for curiosities sake?


 is this an attached garage or a detached building


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## Brianrayl (Oct 4, 2013)

hotblueelectric said:


> Customer has a sub panel installed outdoors from the main panel in the garage. I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed ( grounds and neutrals separate, no bond, bonding screw in the main panel etc). The previous home owner installed about 10 -15 dedicated circuits in the garage. The dedicated circuit power conductors 9 of them were run to the sub panel and put on 9 circuits breakers. The 9 respective neutral conductors were left in the main panel. 2-3 grounds were run to the sub panel neutral bar no neutral (Neutral bar rusted). 1 breaker in the sub fees a pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. Would this cause a parallel path for current or objectionable current. With the grounds on the rusted neutral most likely a shock hazard. What are your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 152570


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## Brianrayl (Oct 4, 2013)

It's Garbage and dangerous, Replace it.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

@hotblueelectric It is a hard call to tell if something in the currents can cause an issue. This I will say if it was conduit yes a heating issue could occur, with hots in one pipe neutrals in the other something about fields canceling out each other.
Also if it was feeders hots and neutrals in different pipes mounted to close can cause a transformer action heating the conduits as they act as the iron core.

As asked before where do the taps go off of the main.

Cowboy


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Okay, I see the handle tie.

And *yes*, likely to cause objectionable current, especially if you have motors powered off of the panel, which you pointed out.

Since this is the sub, where do the taps at the feeder end go? Is there a sub disconnect for this out of the picture, or is this MLO? Is there another sub-panel off of the tap?

Still, CB6 and maybe CB12 look like they are double-tapped. What was the story there?

Out of curiosity, how many circuits is this panel rated for?

I would bet 2 centidollars that some of that oxidation may have been helped along by any objectionable/parallel currents.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

RICK BOYD said:


> I thought a sub panel in a separate building
> is a code violation as of 2002 ,
> separate building needs to feed from meter base not main panel


Is that a local amendment? I've never heard of that before.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

treznik said:


> I'm curious what the customer is asking you to do. You indicate the main panel needs an upgrade which would likely negate the need for a subpanel, especially one depicted above which is a total mess. I can't understand what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't do any kind of work on this unless *it involved a total rewire*.


I was hoping to see a post that suggested a total rewire.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Quickservice said:


> I was hoping to see a post that suggested a total rewire.


Went on a call today that was a bit of a cluster F... I made some suggestions to what could be done, and they liked the idea of a rewire.






Until I dropped the price bomb!

I think in the end they will just have to rewire, some things cost a ton to bandaid, then when your done you still have old crap that needs upgrading. Theirs is one of those places.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Switched said:


> Went on a call today that was a bit of a cluster F... I made some suggestions to what could be done, and they liked the idea of a rewire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Price bombs do freak out a lot of customers... a lady who is having tons of trouble with her FPE panel was excited about an upgrade until I mentioned the price. Her neighbor told her that she better make sure her smoke alarms are working and her home owners is paid up. Grim statement, but he was right.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

hotblueelectric said:


> No one is understanding the original post. The question?! With the neutrals in the main what does that do Or cause? Objectionable current? Parallel current In the neutrals?


Ignoring all the rest of the **** show, which is pretty ordinary, looking at just the off the wall part about running all the neutrals for branch circuits in the subpanel to the main panel. 

It violates 300.3(B) (Conductors of the Same Circuit) and I guess also 210.4(D) / 200.4(B) (grouping). Plus when every you do something oddball it will be confusing for the next guy working on it and you never know how that might cause trouble, he's making assumptions based on normal wiring. 

I am trying to think of how it would be dangerous, start a fire or shock someone, in day to day operation. It basically bypasses the feeder neutral. It doesn't create a parallel path that I can see. I think overloads and shorts would trip the breakers the same and the EGC would still clear faults the same. I don't see how it would overload any wires.


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## Blockisle9 (Oct 31, 2020)

RICK BOYD said:


> I thought a sub panel in a separate building
> is a code violation as of 2002 ,
> separate building needs to feed from





RICK BOYD said:


> I thought a sub panel in a separate building
> is a code violation as of 2002 ,
> separate building needs to feed from meter base not main panel


Never heard that.. I thought you just needed a disconnecting means at the sub-panel.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Strange thread


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

hotblueelectric said:


> Customer has a sub panel installed outdoors from the main panel in the garage. I’m well aware of how a sub panel is installed ( grounds and neutrals separate, no bond, bonding screw in the main panel etc). The previous home owner installed about 10 -15 dedicated circuits in the garage. The dedicated circuit power conductors 9 of them were run to the sub panel and put on 9 circuits breakers. The 9 respective neutral conductors were left in the main panel. 2-3 grounds were run to the sub panel neutral bar no neutral (Neutral bar rusted). 1 breaker in the sub fees a pool gfi, and 1-2 pole cb feeds Pool pump. No ground bar. I’ve never encountered anything like this. I know this installation is totally wrong. Would this cause a parallel path for current or objectionable current. With the grounds on the rusted neutral most likely a shock hazard. What are your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 152570


why are there no neutral wires in there


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