# pole bases



## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

need some tips for pole bases

the anchors bolts are being shipped prior to the poles

the plan detail states #5 dowels with #3 ties @ 12" on center

Can the rebar be tied, or should i tack weld them?
Or maybe bend the tie rings around the dowels

Do you make the vertical bars long and hammer into the earth at the base bottom to secure it during the pour?

Did this years ago as a helper but dont know the proper procedure

Thanks


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

oldschool said:


> need some tips for pole bases
> 
> the anchors bolts are being shipped prior to the poles
> 
> ...


Just set up two saw horses lay your rebar on them and use tie wire to attach your rings,when done just drop it in your hole set your sonotube and make a template for your pole anchors.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> Just set up two saw horses lay your rebar on them and use tie wire to attach your rings,when done just drop it in your hole set your sonotube and make a template for your pole anchors.


We always made a template out of plywood, nut your anchors to the plywood top and bottom and as noted tie wired rebar and set in place. We always left a hole in the template to alloy the vibrator an access hole.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

whats the best way to keep the cage and template secure so it dont get jacked up during the pour?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> whats the best way to keep the cage and template secure so it dont get jacked up during the pour?


Pour it yourself.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Pour it yourself.


 I was hoping you would chime in. Your like the pole base king, ive seen your pics.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have done a couple hundred bases. Here are some random tips.

I usually have the cages made. It is generally more cost efficient. They tie them with tie wire. They install offset braces in the middle to keep them from folding.

I have tied a few myself from leftover pieces. The place I have them made has templates to bend the circles and occaisionally I cut one off the bottom if the hole is too shallow.

If the base is 5' deep and 24" up, make the cage 8' with no ring on the bottom 12". This will allow the feet to stick in the dirt and hold the cage in place. It also makes it easier to keep level without a bottom ring.

Dig hole, install cage, install conduit, install sonotube, pour concrete, beat exterior of tube, use potato masher (drywall tool) on the top, make sure concrete is stiff enough to support the bolts, drop/push in anchor bolts. 

I have used form oil a few times but don't think it helped. The sooner you remove the tube, the easier it is. I haven't found a great way to accomplish this. I generally use a sawsall and cut verticall top to bottom. It's hell on the blade but doesn't scuff the base _too_ bad.

I cut the sonotube about 12" longer than the exposed part. This keeps the bottom from kicking out.

With drywall screws from the outside, I install a 2x4 square frame around the sonotube at grade. I don't use any support on the tops. I pour them myself and am careful to keep the tube plumb.

Make your own sturdy templates out of plywood. Point bolt angles 90 degrees to/from the next one.

If installing a ground wire to the cage, make sure it doesn't get in the way of the bolts when you install them.

Make sure your conduits are nicely centered and not fighting with the rebar cage. You don't want to fight with a several thousand pounds of concrete. *Start plumb/level, stay plumb/level.* You can put your shoulder into a full tube but you want to avoid it. Make the concrete driver go slow. Tell him you are a virgin. Manipulate the cage if necessary before it's too late. Try to avoid pouring directly on your conduits. If any couplings are questionable, duct tape them upon installation.

I don't use a vibrator. I use a softball bat with a lot of medium hits around the tube. I have tried the sawsall with no blade a few times but didn't notice any difference. Make sure the mix isn't too dry (or too wet).

I told you it was random info. Patch it together and learm from my mistakes.
More.

The cage will be 6" smaller than the tube and stop 3" to 6" short of the top. If the cage starts to twist while pouring, stop the concrete and adjust it. It will only get worse. The most critivcal portion is the bottom 1/3. If everything looks goog the rest will be easy.

Often, the trench will not be completely backfilled at the hole because the dirt will just fall in. Leave extra dirt right ther, stop the pour for a minute and shovel some dirt in to contain the concrete.

Keep the bottom nuts out of the concrete. If the concrete is too wet and the are sinking, slip something under the plywood template to hold them up.




> Your like the pole base king


I have done my share, that's for sure. It's been a niche market. No one wants to do them except for new construction.

This was my best pole job ever. I actually relocated 5 pole *and bases* to make room for a covered parking structure..


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

oldschool said:


> whats the best way to keep the cage and template secure so it dont get jacked up during the pour?


 Float the anchor bolts in after you pour the pole base " before the concrete sets up".:thumbsup:


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Perfect, thanks for taking the time to help.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Her's a single pole replacement we did a few months ago. A car drove into the playground and knocked it crooked.

We scheduled our hole driller guy at 9AM, our local mini mix concrete guy at 11 AM, grabbed some rebar parts and went out there to figure it out.

We assembled the cage on site. No center supports so it was wobbly. It was also crooked as hell, but hey, were electricians not steelworkers.

Drilled the hole next to the old one.










Discovered that the old base was only 18" deep so we cut the conduits, pulled it out and relaocated conduits to the new base.










Installed the cage,conduits,tube and backfilled just in time for concrete. The short ones are much easier to keep straight. 











We were out of there by noon for a productive short day.











Came back a couple days later by myself (and a crane) and assembled/set/made up the pole in about an hour.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Perfect, step by step instructions, just what i needed

I only have 4 to do.

thanks again :thumbsup:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

I always weld up my cages and weld the bolts to the cage using the bolt pattern template made of plywood to space the bolts. Just throw the cage in the hole with the sonotube, center it and run the conduit up inside the cage. Piece of cake.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I always weld up my cages and weld the bolts to the cage using the bolt pattern template made of plywood to space the bolts


Seems like you would lose quite a bit of play by attaching the bolts to the cage. I like as much play as I can get. Things _happen _in the field  It also seems like the bolts would get in the way of the pour.

Speaking of things happening,...if your hole gets drilled too deep and you have already used your backfill dirt, cut some PVC extensions and tape them to the rebar "legs".


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Seems like you would lose quite a bit of play by attaching the bolts to the cage. I like as much play as I can get. Things _happen _in the field  It also seems like the bolts would get in the way of the pour.
> 
> Speaking of things happening,...if your hole gets drilled too deep and you have already used your backfill dirt, cut some PVC extensions and tape them to the rebar "legs".


Why would you want play in the bolt pattern? The holes in the pole base plate are what they are. Weld them to the rebar cage using the pattern provided by the pole manufacturer and you can't go wrong when it comes time to set the poles.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Why would you want play in the bolt pattern?


Not in the bolt pattern but play/slack between the bolts and the cage. 


The cage is very likely to move around during the build and especially during the pour and it will take the bolts with it. It's hard enough adjusting the cage without having to keep it* exactly* in place.

If you install the bolts _after the pour, _you avoid that issue. 

During the build, you can move the cage up or down to avoid your conduits. During the pour, if it tweeks a bit, it's no big deal. If the cage lands a bit off center or out of plumb, no problem. You still have play to land the bolts in the center.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Sounds like too much horsin' around for me. Make your cages the right height, drop them in the hole to where the rebar sticks in the ground in the bottom of the hole. Center the cage in the sonotube. Stub the conduit up the middle of the cage. Hold a bolt on the cage while the concrete is poured and you're done. The bolts are now CEEs. Done a couple hundred this way with no problems. The specs I am always given require the bolts to be physically attached to the rebar cage. It never ocurred to me that you could just float them in to the concrete.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Sounds like too much horsin' around for me.


As opposed to welding the entire structure together :laughing:






> Center the cage in the sonotube. Stub the conduit up the middle of the cage


Kinda hard to get the conduit installed with the tube in place, aint it? _Occaisionally _I have to do it this way but generally it's easier to install the tube after the conduit is in place.




> It never ocurred to me that you could just float them in to the concrete


That's probably why it is difficult to grasp the concept. I can guarantee that it is an easier install. Out here I have never seen it specified to attach the bolts to the cage. Typically they are 3/4" x 30" with an L bennd at the bottom so they are not pulling out without a fight :thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> That's probably why it is difficult to grasp the concept. I can guarantee that it is an easier install. Out here I have never seen it specified to attach the bolts to the cage. Typically they are 3/4" x 30" with an L bennd at the bottom so they are not pulling out without a fight :thumbup:


I used to do traffic signals and school crossing signs. Those J-bolts are often 10 to 15 feet long and up to 1 or 1-1/4 in diameter. Takes a man, a boy, and 4 mule team to get them in.

I normally put masking tape or duct tape over what thread is exposed beyond the jack nuts. Stuff happens. Concrete juice in the threads is not so much fun.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I have watched the construction of local freeways and the sinage pole bolts are many and massive.



> Takes a man, a boy, and 4 mule team to get them in.


Out here, we use cranes to avoid child labor and animal cruelty laws.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

220/221 said:


> As opposed to welding the entire structure together :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welding the cage together doesn't take 1/2 hour. We always hole saw the side of the sonotube for conduit entry/exit as most are spec'd 48" of sonotube below grade and 30" above finish grade and we don't trench much deeper than 42". I grasp your concept and have seen it done similar. Just seems harder that way. But hey, what ever works for you.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Keep in mind that I am trying not to appear as arguementative :laughing: I just want to give Old School the benefit of my personal experience. 

The very first six bases I ever did, I put the tubes all the way (6') into the hole and fought the conduits in and out. I realized shortly that I wasted a couple hundred dollars on extra tube and effort.





> We always hole saw the side of the sonotube for conduit entry/exit as most are spec'd 48" of sonotube below grade and 30" above finish grade and we don't trench much deeper than 42".


 
When you install conduits in and out with the tube in place, I assume you have to install a 90 on a a piece of conduit and try to hold it in place six feet below the top while someone else pushes conduit in thru the side?

Maybe you install the 90 at the bottom and slide it in thru the hole in the tube, then guide a straight piece 6' down into the 90??

Either way, I have done this _in a pinch_ and it aint easy, even with no bolts in the way. In some cases of rare sandy soil, the 24" diameter hole ends up about 36" and fills up. That's when we have to put a tube in first deep and struggle with the conduits.

Typically, if I need to install the tube a bit deeper than 18/24 inches I notch the side(s) so it will slip past the conduit(s). Usually the tubes only go 6 to 12 inches below grade.


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## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Her's a single pole replacement we did a few months ago. A car drove into the playground and knocked it crooked.
> 
> We scheduled our hole driller guy at 9AM, our local mini mix concrete guy at 11 AM, grabbed some rebar parts and went out there to figure it out.
> 
> ...


 
You guys are lucky with your soils!

In Northern NJ you get 50% rock (or more). Brink out the track hoe! What are we going to do with this 1 ton rock?

I'm jealous


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

Wow...thanks 220/221...
I have not done alot of poles, but the ones I have been involved with, the base was already set up. I only had to make a template for the bolts and deal with that end. 

Very informative and enlightening!:thumbup: Especially the leaving enough rebar for the feet and leveling abilities.


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## mojowinger (Aug 20, 2013)

*light pole base questions*

hey anyone out there,
has anyone heard of not being able to use the sonotube in a dirt hole? because of the tube leaving a 1/8" hole after corroding. also has anyone heard of compaction testing on the outside of the sonotube? I've heard that if you use a tamper it could damage the tube. does anyone know?


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## mojowinger (Aug 20, 2013)

*light pole base questions*

hey anyone out there,
has anyone heard of not being able to use the sonotube in a dirt hole? because of the tube leaving a 1/8" hole after corroding. also has anyone heard of compaction testing on the outside of the sonotube? I've heard that if you use a tamper it could damage the tube. does anyone know?


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## CES (Jan 18, 2013)

We usually use a hot box for the stub up's, main reason is to avoid any couplings inside the tube. I don't like there being a chance for something to come loose versus a solid piece. I haven't done any in a few years but it seems the drawings spec'd the rebar cage couldn't touch the ground.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

mojowinger said:


> hey anyone out there,
> has anyone heard of not being able to use the sonotube in a dirt hole? because of the tube leaving a 1/8" hole after corroding. also has anyone heard of compaction testing on the outside of the sonotube? I've heard that if you use a tamper it could damage the tube. does anyone know?



I don't run the tubes all the way into the hole so there is no gap after 2000 years when the sonotube corrodes :laughing:

And. compaction would have to be after the pour.

I suppose in extremely sandy soil the tubes would have to go all the way in because the holes wouldn't drill clean. I'm not sure why someone would worry about an 1/8" of paper around it.




> I haven't done any in a few years but it seems the drawings spec'd the rebar cage couldn't touch the ground.


I got tagged on that once.  Don't they realize how long it would take for rust to wick up into the base enough to do any damage? I'm guessing a couple K years.


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