# Figure it out for yourself



## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

I realize that 'back in the day', (like maybe the 50's to the 70's?) work was scarce and experience and knowledge were priceless so there was a "Figure it out for yourself" ... and ... "Apprentice, go get this or that supply" (whether needed or not), so that the apprentice could not 'sponge' techniques or tricks from the vet.

With the NJATC running Apprentice programs, are apprentices really that much of a 'threat' to the Journeyman keeping his job?

For example, I had one JW (who has been good to work with, & very sharing with his knowledge) tell me that many Journeyman Wireman will share only as little info as possible - kind of job security, I suppose - 

Reminds me of a show I watched on the History Channel about the Korean War, how Rifle Company combat vets would not even look at replacements or learn their name, let alone show them the ropes. "Until you've been bloody, you're not part of the unit." Is it the same with apprentice inside wiremen? 

It's like... *that* replacement signed up for the same army, endured and passed the same basic training, volunteered for combat just the same, and is just like the vets were before they got combat experience.

Oh, I do realize that figuring something out for yourself can be a better learning experience sometimes than being shown, however if I figure it out the 'wrong' way and keep that as a habit...What good is that?

Footnote: I am certainly not comparing being an electrician to combat whatsoever, and I do not intend to insinuate or give the false impression that I am a vet. (Unless Scouting counts, LOL).

By the way, Hats Off and a hearty handshake to ALL VETS from a grateful citizen.

BP


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Your welcome on the "Vets" perspective. As for your issue with the JW of years ago, most of those guys were Vets and may have used the same judgements they had learned in the service. Others were just hard heads/asses and had their own problems. Do you think learning while working with those guys made you a better JW when you got there?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I repay those that taught me, by teaching others.


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## Rong (Feb 23, 2008)

Around here I am afraid that chain of thought still exist. I for one am not of that camp and feel that if I help the apprentice learn to be better in the craft then all the better. I was talking with a lead man/foreman the other day and he told me that he does not explain things to an apprentice because he/she will get the attitude that they can do things themselves. DUH!!! A ignorant apprentice turns into a ignorant journeyman IMHO!! :001_huh:


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## Ecopat (Apr 17, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I repay those that taught me, by teaching others.


This is a sound philosophy. :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> I realize that 'back in the day', (like maybe the 50's to the 70's?) work was scarce and experience and knowledge were priceless so there was a "Figure it out for yourself" ... and ... "Apprentice, go get this or that supply" (whether needed or not), so that the apprentice could not 'sponge' techniques or tricks from the vet.


HORSE HOCKEY.....There are jerks NOW and there were jerks then. There are excellent electricians now and there were excellent electricians then. Only a PINHEAD (and that pinhead ain't no electrician) would not teach anyone everything.



> With the NJATC running Apprentice programs, are apprentices really that much of a 'threat' to the Journeyman keeping his job?


Read my response above the "journeyman" you speak of is NO JOURNEYMAN but is a simpleton.



> For example, I had one JW (who has been good to work with, & very sharing with his knowledge) tell me that many Journeyman Wireman will share only as little info as possible - kind of job security, I suppose -


I have met a few of these not willing to share guys IDIOTS.




> Oh, I do realize that figuring something out for yourself can be a better learning experience sometimes than being shown, however if I figure it out the 'wrong' way and keep that as a habit...What good is that?


You need a little of both, if the basics are there then you can build on them with self teaching.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

It seems likes everyones job is easier when you can teach an apprentice to think ahead to the next step. Treat them as a value, not a threat.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

It was a mixed bag when I first came into my local. There were many families out there on jobs, you herad a lot of calls for dad, uncle this, uncle that and those guys would always take care of family first. Then there were are fair amount of Archie Bunkers that were what I thought of as gisgruntled Vets, those were the hard asses that would never show you a thing. Well I was lucky enough to come in with a younger set of Vets that came from a place were we all stuck together and looked out for each other. My view is, the more I can teach an apprentice the more time I have to do other things.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

Maaaybe some of the issue is that with my industrial experience, I have done some of the tasks that we have done so far on jobs during my apprenticeship.

I may have learned to do things in a different way than a trained JW. If the end result is the same, what's the difference. Not that either way is wrong.

I have to keep in mind that I need to be receptive to new ideas and techniques, and realize that because some of my 'ways' ARE self taught, that a JW in many cases has learned ways of getting the same job done with shorter time and less work.

But being told how to use a hole saw...you don't work in Machine shops for over a decade and NOT learn how to drill a flippin' hole!! (Here's where I probably should keep my mouth shut). But,,, the JW is telling me to NOT use the pilot drill to drill the 1/4in. hole for the hole cutter because it will break when the hole cutter starts to cut. Instead, he has me drill a 1/4in. hole with a separate standard 1/4in. bit, then stop and put the hole cutter in the drill. I say "That takes nearly twice as long to do it that way, and I've never broken a pilot drill" And" SO, drill a 1/4in. hole, then stop, take that bit out, put the cutter in which has the SAME 1/4in. diameter drill...?..." . He says you've probably not used one as much as I have, and he said he's probably broken 20 pilot drills. :thumbsup: 

I say "If you don't control the drill on the break-through with the pilot, I can see how the cutter may grab and twist the pilot off.

This is just an example, and I know there are two sides to every story.
Should I just pretend that I have NO experience at all??

I may come off as a 'know it all' and I do not intend to. It's something I stay aware of and attemp to correct. It's just the people who micro-manage, and tell you how to hold a screwdriver.

It's frustrating so far as an apprentice. I've been a Lead Tech on a crew of 4 previously in a plant. One week a JW says to mark EMT with a Sharpie...next week another JW says "Don't use a Sharpie, use a pencil".
I can understand reasons why, but it's like when I do what I am told, that's when someone else says "Don't do it this way, do it that way".

Just venting some frustrations here, because I realize that there is *A LOT* that I have to learn and it is the experienced JWs that will teach me, so I don't want or need to *piss 'em off*.

BP


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

I never use a sharpie on pipe


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

BP_redbear said:


> Maaaybe some of the issue is that with my industrial experience, I have done some of the tasks that we have done so far on jobs during my apprenticeship.
> 
> I may have learned to do things in a different way than a trained JW. If the end result is the same, what's the difference. Not that either way is wrong.
> 
> ...


Here is a Trick on using hole saws. What you do is use a "standard " 1/4" drill in a hole saw as a pilot instead of the the standard pilot that comes with and is supposed to be used with hole saw arbor. By using a standard drill you have a little more length to drill the 1/4" pilot hole before you hit the hole saw and you can better see the mark where you want the hole. 

View attachment 546


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Most of the time when drilling heavy gauge metal I drill the pilot with a seperate bit and use plain 1/4" rod or the bit turned around in the hole saw to avoid heating up the bit or having the pilot hole oval out, it just gives a cleaner hole. My impression of machine shop use of a hole saw would be to have it chucked in a drill press which wouldn't be anywhere near close to being in a hnad held drill motor.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

I often use a separate ¼" bit for a hole saw pilot, especially when I have multiple holes.
Easier to line them up, IMO.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

As for the sharpie and or pencil, if I don't want to see marks after, pencil is the way to go. If you are putting temp numbers or something of that nature on let's say a disco outside in the weather, a pencil mark will out last a sharpie mark 100 to 1, ink doesn't last in sunlight and rain.


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> My impression of machine shop use of a hole saw would be to have it chucked in a drill press which wouldn't be anywhere near close to being in a hnad held drill motor.


Actually if you do it in good drill press or vertical milling machine (as in Bridgeport Milling Machine) you don't even need to use the 1/4" pilot bit. Whatever you are drilling just needs to be clamped down securely and you can make perfect holes every time.
But, when you are out in the field you can't have everything.:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Put a 1/4 fender washer on the hole saw and it will not grab as you do the pilot hole.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm a third year aprentice and I can tell you that you will run into guys who will make you do things their way even if they know your way is better. Sometimes you will work with guys who will listen to your ideas and use them if they are better too, but probably not as often as the other. Sucks being smart when you get a dumb journeyman and it sucks being a hardworker when you get someone who wants to drag the job out, but hey, only five more years! :laughing: Oh yeah, I second the washer.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> I'm a third year aprentice and I can tell you that you will run into guys who will make you do things their way even if they know your way is better. Sometimes you will work with guys who will listen to your ideas and use them if they are better too, but probably not as often as the other. Sucks being smart when you get a dumb journeyman and it sucks being a hardworker when you get someone who wants to drag the job out, but hey, only five more years!


Then again the mechanic may know the whole picture where you are only seeing part of it.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

What I meant with the comment about machine shops it that you learn proper speeds and feed rates for drills, and how to control the drill on the break-through. Being a maintenance electrician, I used a hand drill a lot, along with drill presses and mills.

You see some people in other trades who think faster drill speed is always better and push as hard as they can on the drill, so the drill is smokin' and the chuck of the drill slams into the panel every time.

And, I still cannot recall breaking a pilot drill. Maybe the ones that I used were just better quality.

Good tips about the fender washer, and I can see the benefits of using a longer pilot to see, and of using a standard bit first for many KOs on a panel.
Never flipped the pilot over, end for end, to use the smooth side. Worth a try...
I do admit that I do not know everything and that I have a lot to learn..
(Randomkiller, i did not use spellcheck, so you may be able to make up for your 'sping punch' on the other thread. Attention to detail...Attention to detaill...Attention to detailll...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You'll learn or have learned the average electrician uses dull bits and lots of pressure. I have seen guys putting all they have into a hammer drill. Read the hilti instructions two ft/lbs of pressure is all that is required.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> You'll learn or have learned the average electrician uses dull bits and lots of pressure. I have seen guys putting all they have into a hammer drill. Read the hilti instructions two ft/lbs of pressure is all that is required.


Hammer drills, another time that less is more.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Most of the time when drilling heavy gauge metal I drill the pilot with a seperate bit and use plain 1/4" rod or the bit turned around in the hole saw to avoid heating up the bit or having the pilot hole oval out, it just gives a cleaner hole. My impression of machine shop use of a hole saw would be to have it chucked in a drill press which wouldn't be anywhere near close to being in a hnad held drill motor.


RK, you are pretty good, for an old guy . . . I have used that 'plain 1/4" rod trick for years.

Most of us posters do not have the pleasure of a squeeky clean machine shop.

And, I prefered a china marking pencil, remember those?

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> RK, you are pretty good, for an old guy . . . I have used that 'plain 1/4" rod trick for years.
> 
> Most of us posters do not have the pleasure of a squeeky clean machine shop.
> 
> ...


 
The only machine shop I have is my own garage, other than that I am out in the field someplace. As for the plain rod, I have never seen the reason to spin a sharp drill against metal for no good reason. As for china markers, yeah I sure do remember them, they write on anything. They are getting hard to come by, not too many places carry them anymore. I bought a box of black ones off line the last time. As for age, how old are you now?


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> The only machine shop I have is my own garage, other than that I am out in the field someplace. As for the plain rod, I have never seen the reason to spin a sharp drill against metal for no good reason. As for china markers, yeah I sure do remember them, they write on anything. They are getting hard to come by, not too many places carry them anymore. I bought a box of black ones off line the last time. As for age, how old are you now?


64 in August.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> 64 in August.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


You must have retired young, I thought you were older from reading some of your posts.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

56 in September.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> You must have retired young, I thought you were older from reading some of your posts.


Just 'rode hard, and put up wet'.

Retired July 31, 2001, 56 at the time. I was able to retire partially due to advice offered by and taken from folks like you forum members along the way. Do I miss the work, you bet.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

HighWirey said:


> Just 'rode hard, and put up wet'.
> 
> Retired July 31, 2001, 56 at the time. I was able to retire partially due to advice offered by and taken from folks like you forum members along the way. Do I miss the work, you bet.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


 
That sounds like a nice age to retire, if you have something else to keep you busy. I want to retire at 62 but have no intention of not doing some type of work to keep me busy. I used to joke about a bait store/dive shop/gun shop down on the NC or SC coast, it just sounds more like a possibility nowadays. I have @ nine years to 62, my youngest will be out of school by then so you never know where I will end up.


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## HighWirey (Sep 17, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> That sounds like a nice age to retire, if you have something else to keep you busy. I want to retire at 62 but have no intention of not doing some type of work to keep me busy. I used to joke about a bait store/dive shop/gun shop down on the NC or SC coast, it just sounds more like a possibility nowadays. I have @ nine years to 62, my youngest will be out of school by then so you never know where I will end up.


There is nothing at all funny about retiring in "a bait store/dive shop/gun shop down on the NC or SC coast". Persue your dream. Should have done it myself. My recently deceased fireman buddy had a get-a-way place in Ashville, NC. Good part of the USA.

Till then, guess I'll have to continue lectrocutin' them fish in the Indian River . . .

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## blackhat 321 (Aug 2, 2008)

*J Dubbery*

I always give good advice to all my FRIENDS who happen to be apprentices . I always give horrible advice to obvious back stabbers I see in a pinch right before lunch or break. The company needs profit but I need a place to work too. Gain = .43.


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## markb (Jul 31, 2008)

I turned out in '73, worked at 18 different shops in 4 yrs. For the most part JWs were eager to teach, if you were receptive, but I got to work for all types and learned many ways to do things ( used to hate it when I had my way to do something, and had to do it their way) 

I think it's a bad thing when an apprentice gets stuck in one shop . Happens in small locals.

I'll be 58 this month.


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