# ahj mandating i use cold water ground for heavyup



## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

fellas, i need some help.! 

recent heavy up in pg county maryland. ive always installed 2 ground rods 6 ft apart w a solid # 4 for my gec and never had a prob til today. this inspector is telling me i HAVE to get a cold water ground which is located on the other side of the house from the panel behind all finished drywall walls and ceilings. like 30' away. id have to destroy the ceiling. anybody ever have this problem i would love some advice. great site w great people! 

thanks, 
Clint


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Your inspector is correct. 250.52(a)(1)



You must hit it within 5ft of where it enters the structure. Does it have a crawl space? Can you not drill down and run to it?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree with the inspector, if it is there it has to be used.


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

both the panel and cold water are in the finished basement. i cant see how they can make a homeowner endure the hardship of opening drywall to achieve this. i can see in new construction when its all open but this house is 35 years old and just had a single ground rod when i got there.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Power21 said:


> both the panel and cold water are in the finished basement. i cant see how they can make a homeowner endure the hardship of opening drywall to achieve this. i can see in new construction when its all open but this house is 35 years old and just had a single ground rod when i got there.


 

Run the GEC outside


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Run the GEC outside


 ditto. I whole heartedly agree with mcclary with the scenario described


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Power21 said:


> both the panel and cold water are in the finished basement. i cant see how they can make a homeowner endure the hardship of opening drywall to achieve this. i can see in new construction when its all open but this house is 35 years old and just had a single ground rod when i got there.


 

Call his boss and ask for an exception. They may grandfather it in. Outside is an option like was said.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

What is a Heavy up?:blink:


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> What is a Heavy up?:blink:


Service change. And to the OP, all available electrodes must be bonded.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> Service change. And to the OP, all available electrodes must be bonded.


 
Available may be the key word. Here if you have to do damage to install smokes they will give you an exception. Never run across a water pipe I couldn't acess so I dont know about that.


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

Power21 said:


> 2 ground rods 6 ft apart w _a solid # 4_ for my gec


You may want to re-think this too...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> You may want to re-think this too...


 
Huh:blink:? May I ask why?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Big City Electrician said:


> You may want to re-think this too...


What am I missing?


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> What am I missing?


Don't ground rods need a max #6 GEC? :001_huh:


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

#6 is cheaper:thumbup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> Don't ground rods need a max #6 GEC? :001_huh:


 
Min #6 but must be protected. #4 does not unless it is subject to damage.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

CTshockhazard said:


> #6 is cheaper:thumbup:


 
My county requires #4 min.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Big City Electrician said:


> Don't ground rods need a max #6 GEC? :001_huh:


That is true good point, I forgot about that. 

But 6 AWG needs protection that 4 AWG does not so I guess it depends on the job conditions.


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

I hit the rod with #6 Bare Armored Ground. And we only do 1 rod around here...


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Available may be the key word. Here if you have to do damage to install smokes they will give you an exception. Never run across a water pipe I couldn't acess so I dont know about that.


They don't give an exception for smokes here. If I was the inspector I wouldn't give an exception for the cold water either. The op should have known the code before he did the job. What is with this "heavy up "? Why not call it what it is,a service upgrade!


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Call his boss and ask for an exception. They may grandfather it in. Outside is an option like was said.


jrjwr i did just that today. i called the top dog whose name is on the permit. He just called back and stated he sides with me and feels 2 8' ground rods is enough and destroying ceilings just to get to a cold water is not appropriate. he said he still wants to confer w his field inspec. Fingers crossed but im optimistic!. 

Fellas this site is truly a useful tool to get the job done to pay the bills and i truly appreciate all the help


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> They don't give an exception for smokes here. If I was the inspector I wouldn't give an exception for the cold water either. The op should have known the code before he did the job. What is with this "heavy up "? Why not call it what it is,a service upgrade!


 

Actually I was told this week that the IBC changed and NOW we can go back to battery ones. For the last year they wouldn't accept battery.:001_huh:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Power21 said:


> fellas, i need some help.!
> 
> recent heavy up in pg county maryland. ive always installed 2 ground rods 6 ft apart w a solid # 4 for my gec and never had a prob til today. this inspector is telling me i HAVE to get a cold water ground which is located on the other side of the house from the panel behind all finished drywall walls and ceilings. like 30' away. id have to destroy the ceiling. anybody ever have this problem i would love some advice. great site w great people!
> 
> ...


That IS the code. I disagree with some of the code's requirements but who am I? The only purpose of using the water pipe as an electrode is for possible lightning strikes or some other aberrant voltage that occurs rarely. My contention is why in the heck would you invite a lightning strike current into and across the interior of a home when it may not do so normally when it is dissipating itself?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Available may be the key word.



It could be the key word if that is what the code used.



> 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
> 
> All grounding electrodes
> as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) *that are
> ...


For the water pipe it will not matter if he has to knock the building down to get to it, if it is present it must be used.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> That IS the code. I disagree with some of the code's requirements but who am I? The only purpose of using the water pipe as an electrode is for possible lightning strikes or some other aberrant voltage that occurs rarely. My contention is why in the heck would you invite a lightning strike current into and across the interior of a home when it may not do so normally when it is dissipating itself?


 


Really????Your gonna put everyone thru this again????:jester::laughing:


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

jwjrw i just contacted the top dog whose name is on the permit. he sides w me and feels 2 ground rods in lieu of destroying ceilings to get to the cold water seems appropriate. he says he wants to confer w his field inspector first but im optimistic!. ill let u guys know the result. 

this site is an amazing tool to get the job done and pay the bills. i truly appreciate all of the posters help


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> That IS the code. I disagree with some of the code's requirements but who am I? The only purpose of using the water pipe as an electrode is for possible lightning strikes or some other aberrant voltage that occurs rarely. My contention is why in the heck would you invite a lightning strike current into and across the interior of a home when it may not do so normally when it is dissipating itself?



Any electrode you use will be connected to items inside the home.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It could be the key word if that is what the code used.
> 
> 
> 
> For the water pipe it will not matter if he has to knock the building down to get to it, if it is present it must be used.


 

Im strictly talking about what the AHJ considers available. You are correct the nec requires it. Im thinking they would grandfather it in.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Power21 said:


> jwjrw i just contacted the top dog whose name is on the permit. he sides w me and feels 2 ground rods in lieu of destroying ceilings to get to the cold water seems appropriate. he says he wants to confer w his field inspector first but im optimistic!. ill let u guys know the result.


He is a fool to say yes and even with his blessing you will be on the hook for it until you are dead or the building is gone.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Any electrode you use will be connected to items inside the home.


Name a few.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Im strictly talking about what the AHJ considers available. You are correct the nec requires it. Im thinking they would grandfather it in.


It is a new service, there is no grandfathering it in.

There is just ignoring the rules but the contractor will be liable if something happens. 

Even if you do not use the water line ans electrode it must be bonded to the service.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Name a few.


Well ya got me I can't think of anything .......... other than every metal object connected to the EGC.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Well ya got me I can't think of anything .......... other than every metal object connected to the EGC.


Believe me, I knew the answer, but,answer me this. Why do YOU think that we do all of this CONNECTING if not from the mandate of the NEC?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> It is a new service, there is no grandfathering it in.
> 
> There is just ignoring the rules but the contractor will be liable if something happens.
> 
> Even if you do not use the water line ans electrode it must be bonded to the service.


 


My thought is its been that way for 35 years and the world didn't end.:whistling2:. Its a new service (I assumed it was an update) so does that mean arcs are now required? If it was required when the house was built I say(which means crap) yes. If not required when built I say grandfathered in.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Power21 said:


> jwjrw i just contacted the top dog whose name is on the permit. he sides w me and feels 2 ground rods in lieu of destroying ceilings to get to the cold water seems appropriate. he says he wants to confer w his field inspector first but im optimistic!. ill let u guys know the result.
> 
> this site is an amazing tool to get the job done and pay the bills. i truly appreciate all of the posters help


 

I really don't understand why you don't do this the right way. "begging" somebody to let you break the code is not cool. I'm sure he'll forget that conversation when something goes down. Do yourself, and your customer a favor, perform work AT LEAST up to code, had she wanted someone to hack this together, and beg the building official to pass it,,,,she could have done that herself. 

With his blessing or not, it's still illegal, and you're still liable


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

I don't about the United States but here in California the cold water service pops up out of the ground on the exterior of the house, goes through a regulator/backflow preventer and enters the house. It's very easy (although unattractive) to run along the exterior of the house and hit the cold water...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> I don't about the United States but here in California the cold water service pops up out of the ground on the exterior of the house, goes through a regulator/backflow preventer and enters the house. It's very easy (although unattractive) to run along the exterior of the house and hit the cold water...


 


Ours are in the crawl space if it has one mostly. Ive seen kitchen pantrys, garages and closets on slabs. When I run #4 bare along the outside I do it real low and strap it. You never even see it unless you look close.


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Its a new service (I assumed it was an update) so does that mean arcs are now required? If it was required when the house was built I say(which means crap) yes. If not required when built I say grandfathered in.


The electrical code applies to electrical installations. He did not install any branch circuits so the AFCI requirement would not be applicable. He did install a service, so the cold water bond would be required.

What if the house predated the invention of electricity? Would any of the subsequent installations need to comply with code?


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> He is a fool to say yes and even with his blessing you will be on the hook for it until you are dead or the building is gone.


very interesting take. im curious what u would do if there was an existing armstrong hard wood ceiling in the way of getting to the cold water ground. if u think a homeowner will be willing to rip a long trench in it to get to the cw pipe you are wrong sir with all due respect there has to be another answer like 2 ground rods


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> My thought is its been that way for 35 years and the world didn't end.:whistling2:.


I don't disagree.

What I am saying is if this house now has any kind of electrical issue that causes damage and it is found that an a new electrical service has recently been installed not up to current code just who do you think will be paying for repairs.

Will that happen? Probably not

Would I want to bet that it would not? No




> Its a new service (I assumed it was an update) so does that mean arcs are now required?


No, not unless he is installing new branch circuits.




> If it was required when the house was built I say yes.


Water line electrodes have been required for a very long time.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> The electrical code applies to electrical installations. He did not install any branch circuits so the AFCI requirement would not be applicable. He did install a service, so the cold water bond would be required.
> 
> What if the house predated the invention of electricity? Would any of the subsequent installations need to comply with code?


 
My point was arcs were not required when it was built but he is installing new breakers. They dont require it here but I have heard some places do.
I have no idea how long ago the water pipe gec was required. If it was required when the house was built then it needs it to pass. If not then they would grandfather it here I bet.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't do resi, but every house I've ever been in in PG county had a cold water ground.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> My point was arcs were not required when it was built but he is installing new breakers. They dont require it here but I have heard some places do.
> I have no idea how long ago the water pipe gec was required. If it was required when the house was built then it needs it to pass. If not then they would grandfather it here I bet.



You have not even thought about reading the responses have you? :laughing:


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> My point was arcs were not required when it was built but he is installing new breakers. They dont require it here but I have heard some places do


Earlier this year I did a service change in a beautiful suburb of Los Angeles called Van Nuys, right on a pleasant, quiet thoroughfare known as "Roscoe Blvd", anyway the inspector required AFCI's, I politely declined and he asked the Chief inspector and decided I was right after all. We have some pretty weak inspectors here...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> You have not even thought about reading the responses have you? :laughing:


 
I was typing my responce when a customer called. While I was on the phone you posted that. I hit post when I hung up. :thumbsup::laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Power21 said:


> very interesting take. im curious what u would do if there was an existing armstrong hard wood ceiling in the way of getting to the cold water ground. if u think a homeowner will be willing to rip a long trench in it to get to the cw pipe you are wrong sir with all due respect there has to be another answer like 2 ground rods


I would think that not being able to run a wire to the cold water would be your problem not the homeowner's. You should have known the code and invesigated this before you bid/did the job.


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

Big City Electrician said:


> Earlier this year I did a service change in a beautiful suburb of Los Angeles called Van Nuys, right on a pleasant, quiet thoroughfare known as "Roscoe Blvd", anyway the inspector required AFCI's, I politely declined and he asked the Chief inspector and decided I was right after all. We have some pretty weak inspectors here...


Wow, you really are a Big City Electrician! Los Angeles must be a wonderful place to work! I love hearing your stories, keep up the good work!

:thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I would think that not being able to run a wire to the cold water would be your problem not the homeowner's. You should have known the code and invesigated this before you bid/did the job.


 
There lies the problem. It should have been in his bid. It sounds like he has gotten caught with his pants down, and wants to bend the rules.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Power21 said:


> very interesting take. im curious what u would do if there was an existing armstrong hard wood ceiling in the way of getting to the cold water ground. if u think a homeowner will be willing to rip a long trench in it to get to the cw pipe you are wrong sir with all due respect there has to be another answer like 2 ground rods


 

First off, the ceilings not the only route, second, he should have known the code BEFORE he did the job, and third,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

there are no exceptions to the code for it being "hard to get to"

and fourth , but most important, you cannot use the earth as a return path, so HOW CAN TWO RODS take the place of this bond?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> there are no exceptions to the code for it being "hard to get to"


I have been looking and I have not found that exception yet. Sure would be nice if I could. :laughing:


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There lies the problem. It should have been in his bid. It sounds like he has gotten caught with his pants down, and wants to bend the rules.


It's a learning experience, we've all had them.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Is the cold water pipe plastic, until it hits 3' from the house?

Can the inspector prove it's 10' metal, in the soil?

If not, you'd still have to bond to it somehow.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Dnkldorf said:


> Is the cold water pipe plastic, until it hits 3' from the house?
> 
> Can the inspector prove it's 10' metal, in the soil?
> 
> If not, you'd still have to bond to it somehow.


If it is all plastic I just hit it at the hot water heater,that has to be jumped anyway!


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> If it is all plastic I just hit it at the hot water heater,that has to be jumped anyway!



I'd re-think this idea too...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> If it is all plastic I just hit it at the hot water heater,that has to be jumped anyway!


 


care to prove it????:blink:


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> care to prove it????:blink:


I don't have my code book handy, but Art 250 says that if the water electrode depends on filters, etc for continuity, they should be jumpered. But in fact, the hot and cold water pipes DO HAVE CONTINUITY as a result of the shower valves and jumpering is not necessary.

Every inspector asks me to bond the water heater and I say thanks but I won't be doing that. It's not required by the NEC. If need be, take a continuity tester and ring out the hot and cold pipes.

Don't bond the water heater, it's a waste of time and money.

EDIT: Whoops! I replied to a question that wasn't even directed at me. My bad.


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## JimmyR (Mar 11, 2010)

dig a trench, and go around the house and drill back in. Ground rods are useless.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> care to prove it????:blink:


 
That is what they make us do here.

But still where else would you get your water ground if it is all plastic pipe?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> That is what they make us do here.
> 
> But still where else would you get your water ground if it is all plastic pipe?


 

If the piping is all plastic, it serves no purpose to bond it, and the system is no less safe, because the pipes are not likely to become energized. But in the op's case, he has a metal pipe, and instead of bonding it, chooses to gamble with the customers life, as if somehow that life is comparable to the money being saved. He is making foolish chioces. 

Choose to save money by using different material, different methods, work faster, work through breaks, whatever it takes. But don't try to save money where a life in as stake. 


How would the op feel if 3 years from now somwbody's in the shower and a thunderstorm rolls up. The house takes a strike.......

A husband finds his wife laying in the tub. Had the pipes been bonded, would it still have killed her? You can bet that and many more questions will come up.

As a descent electrician, YOU SHOULD WANT that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you know it grounded


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> But in the op's case, he has a metal pipe, and instead of bonding it, chooses to gamble with the customers life, as if somehow that life is comparable to the money being saved. He is making foolish chioces.


I missed that part. I reread the original op statement, and I thought the AHJ wanted him to use the cold water pipe as an electrode.

He doesn't want to tear up the house doing it, so he asked for opinions. 

I wouldn't tear up the place either.




mcclary's electrical said:


> Choose to save money by using different material, different methods, work faster, work through breaks, whatever it takes. But don't try to save money where a life in as stake.


Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought like this. :thumbsup:


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