# Eli the iceman



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

what is it doing on start up CL....?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> what is it doing on start up CL....?


The second from last time I was there it wouldn't cut turds. They pulled the pump, cleared it out, and it ran. This could all be a oversight issue where a wire vibrated off. Just female crimp on connectors to potential relays. Combined with huge vibrating road work machinery. Maybe someone put wire back to where they thought it should go. Will vibration alone eat up the starter coil? I know it will chatter in time, but the the whole starter looked over heated.motor overloads are sized correct, but melted the stickers off the coil cover plate.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Whoever wired this lift station had maybe a load of experience, but no idea how to follow a schematic as well. Try to track the wires down, and it makes no spence at all. It was gone through a few times to "get er goin" now I have to troubleshoot.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

why would I ever read 280 volts. No induction with the capacitive circuit...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Guess I am just spilling my guts out so you guys can have all the information available as I do. Kinda second guessing myself. Just want to make sure I covered all the. Bases. With the new testing meters, can I get a high reading through a coupled meter reading voltages on capacitive circuit?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Let me clarify this even more. This has always been a great customer. I don't want to be the guy who lost it. The way I see it is that these lift stations are in major need of update. Been given her since 87'. Upgrades are imminent. I don't have the experience with starters to know why the coil would go so fast without tripping the overloads. Kinda wondered about square D's quality control. You know. Global economy made in....b.s.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I feel like billy idol . Dancing with myself.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Good talk.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

If this is a 3Ø system and you have 120 to neutral/ground on 2 legs and a higher voltage on the 3rd, it's a 120/240 3Ø ∆ system. In theory, the high leg should be 208 to neutral/ground. 

If the controls are 120 and they use one of the phases and the neutral, check if the coils are connected to the high leg. Seen it a few times........

Since you mentioned a cap start potential relay, the motor is single phase. A higher voltage on an open capacitor connected to an inductive circuit (motor) may very well be normal. 

What is the actual voltage at the coils that burn up? 

How does the measured current of the motor compare with the nameplate?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

micromind said:


> If this is a 3Ø system and you have 120 to neutral/ground on 2 legs and a higher voltage on the 3rd, it's a 120/240 3Ø ∆ system. In theory, the high leg should be 208 to neutral/ground.
> 
> If the controls are 120 and they use one of the phases and the neutral, check if the coils are connected to the high leg. Seen it a few times........
> 
> ...


It's 240 volts single phase. For sure. The 280 volts I read totally threw me for a loop.( read on the potential relay.)


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cl906um said:


> why would I ever read 280 volts. No induction with the capacitive circuit...


In an AC waveform, we are reading RMS voltages on our meters.

With a capacitor in the system, you can move over to reading _peak_ volts.

Since I can't even figure out what you're writing about, I'll stop.


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## Drew 64 (Dec 31, 2016)

If it is 240 volt 3 phase , then you have a " high leg ". If the high leg is feeding a 120 volt coil on your starter, it will release the magic smoke.....


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

bb​


telsa said:


> In an AC waveform, we are reading RMS voltages on our meters.
> 
> With a capacitor in the system, you can move over to reading _peak_ volts.
> 
> Since I can't even figure out what you're writing about, I'll stop.


That's ok. We are oceans away, and half the time you are on some weird political rampage.you usually talk like you are from a different life form than the normal other 49 states. Hail schwartzenegger and get to the chopper.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

There are some submersible sewer pumps that are made in Europe and are all 3 phase motors, they don't use single phase the way we do. So when those companies sell their products to us for use on single phase services, they have to provide a "phase adder" system which is usually a static phase adder, consisting of some caps and a voltage relay to make them work. It gets the motor spinning from the single phase source, but they have de-rated the pump motor to about 1/2 of it's true (but now hidden) 3 phase rating. So you might be looking at that phase adder system and it looks just like a remote cap start system for a single phase motor to someone who's never seen one before, but it's different.

My guess is that this is an ITT (Xylem) /Flygt pump, or a Sulzer/ABS pump. Am I right?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

JRaef said:


> There are some submersible sewer pumps that are made in Europe and are all 3 phase motors, they don't use single phase the way we do. So when those companies sell their products to us for use on single phase services, they have to provide a "phase adder" system which is usually a static phase adder, consisting of some caps and a voltage relay to make them work. It gets the motor spinning from the single phase source, but they have de-rated the pump motor to about 1/2 of it's true (but now hidden) 3 phase rating. So you might be looking at that phase adder system and it looks just like a remote cap start system for a single phase motor to someone who's never seen one before, but it's different.
> 
> My guess is that this is an ITT (Xylem) /Flygt pump, or a Sulzer/ABS pump. Am I right?


No. It's 3hp 240 volt single phase 3 wire pump. Kind of the same as a submersible well pump. Has start capacitor ran off of the potential relay, and also has a run cap across t1 and t2. Shaded pole. Only was able to pull the motor for a short time. Wanted to see the full load amps on the nameplate, and make sure the horsepower was correct.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Drew 64 said:


> If it is 240 volt 3 phase , then you have a " high leg ". If the high leg is feeding a 120 volt coil on your starter, it will release the magic smoke.....


No. 120 volts at the coil. Controls are all off of their own circuit breaker. It cannot mix. Even down to the level floats, they go to an intrinsically safe relay.so no voltages can be mixed in the pit. Scratching my head to why coils burn up. Heaters for starters are right. Seams like the starter was overloading, but never tripping. Pulled the heaters to verify ol would trip and coil would deenergize during overload, and it opened the coil circuit.


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## scotch (Oct 17, 2013)

Check the capacitors to make sure their okay ...and the connections to the potential relay ....or get a solid state unit to replace it completely . When you energise the pump check the current flow thru' the start capacitor and see that it switches off as well as the pump comes up to speed .


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