# Question about 225.32



## subelect (Nov 25, 2007)

What is the reasoning for 225.32 requiring a disconnecting means at both ends of a feeder to a detached building? 
This does not come up very often at my shop, but I ran #4-quad AL. USE to a newly built detached garage. I happened to speak to the AHJ about this and he told me that it would need a disconnect at the main service in the house and in the 8/16 panel that I was installing in the garage. It seems like overkill, but I went ahead and did as he explained it.
For the backfed main ckt bkr, I did not have a retaining device and had to put one on the list to be ordered.
This morning, the boss asked me why I needed one and I did not have a good explanation over than, "Code requires it.".

I was hoping that someone could enlighten me.
thanks,
Rick


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The disconnect is required because it's a detached garage, a separate structure so to speak. If you installed a 6-breaker panel I believe you would be ok and wouldn't need the back-fed circuit breaker main and retaining kit. You should have a ground rod with this set up too.


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## subelect (Nov 25, 2007)

The carpenter set me up for a UFER ground already.

The way that I read 225, it does not matter if there are 6 disconnects or not. I understand the requirement to always require a main disconnect.
Rick


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

subelect said:


> The carpenter set me up for a UFER ground already.
> 
> The way that I read 225, it does not matter if there are 6 disconnects or not. I understand the requirement to always require a main disconnect.
> Rick


Yes, you always need a main. Six breakers or less would qualify as the main.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The disconnect is required because it's a detached garage, a separate structure so to speak. If you installed a 6-breaker panel I believe you would be ok and wouldn't need the back-fed circuit breaker main and retaining kit. You should have a ground rod with this set up too.


He could put in a 40 space ML as long as the time of inspection there are only six breakers or less in it.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Most panels are not listed as suitable for use *as service equipment* when using other than a single main and the rule in 225.36 requires the disconnect to be listed as suitable for use as service equipment.


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## CelticElect (Nov 17, 2011)

Since it is a detached building; you have to treat it as a separate and new service. The disconnects on both ends is actually in your best interest. If I am understanding you right, how would a person disconnect the detached buildings service... Walk over to the other building and disconnect it? Disconnect should be within sight for quick disconnect.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

i never really understood why other than it is required. If something was going horribly wrong in the panel, short or something the up stream ocpd would clear it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

CelticElect said:


> Since it is a detached building; you have to treat it as a separate and new service.


I believe I understand what you are trying to say but this is not correct. In a new service the neutrals and grounds are bonded together. In a separate structure the neutrals and grounds are separated and the rod is connected to the egc not the neutral bar.


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

mbednarik said:


> i never really understood why other than it is required. If something was going horribly wrong in the panel, short or something the up stream ocpd would clear it.


 
It has nothing to do with a short. It is about disconnecting the power in an emergency situation.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ceb58 said:


> It has nothing to do with a short. It is about disconnecting the power in an emergency situation.


I wonder about that. It seems to be just to keep unprotected wires from being inside the home- at least for services.

Here is the thing. I can have a meter on the outside wall of a home and yet I can pipe underground all the way around to the opposite side of the house and install my disconnect inside the building at that point. Now how would anyone know where that disconnect is located in an emergency.

The same is true for a separate structure. I can so under the slab and install the disconnect in the middle of the building.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I wonder about that. It seems to be just to keep unprotected wires from being inside the home- at least for services.
> 
> Here is the thing. I can have a meter on the outside wall of a home and yet I can pipe underground all the way around to the opposite side of the house and install my disconnect inside the building at that point. Now how would anyone know where that disconnect is located in an emergency.
> 
> The same is true for a separate structure. I can so under the slab and install the disconnect in the middle of the building.



Doesn't 2011 require the disconnect location to be displayed? I know what you are saying.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> Doesn't 2011 require the disconnect location to be displayed? I know what you are saying.


As far as I can see the code only requires the service disconnect to be permanently marked not where it is located.--230.70(B)


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> As far as I can see the code only requires the service disconnect to be permanently marked not where it is located.--230.70(B)


I thought I had heard the disconnect locations had to be listed but I think I hear a lot of things. :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> I thought I had heard the disconnect locations had to be listed but I think I hear a lot of things. :laughing:


Is that for multiple services on a building. I'll look.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Check out 230.2(E)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Most panels are not listed as suitable for use *as service equipment* when using other than a single main and the rule in 225.36 requires the disconnect to be listed as suitable for use as service equipment.


 

I've never seen a panel listed that way, IMO, if the breaker is ANSI/UL 489 listed in a listed enclosure, it is service rated.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Check out 230.2(E)



That would require me to get up and I don't see it happening right now. But I will look tomorrow. :laughing: 

And as I say this my dog wants to go outside.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I've never seen a panel listed that way, IMO, if the breaker is ANSI/UL 489 listed in a listed enclosure, it is service rated.


 Most every panel I use states it is listed for service equipment.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> That would require me to get up and I don't see it happening right now. But I will look tomorrow. :laughing:
> 
> And as I say this my dog wants to go outside.


You lazy dog... here... 



> (E) Identification. Where a building or structure is supplied
> by more than one service, or any combination of branch circuits, feeders, and services, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each service disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, and branch circuits supplying that building or structure and the area served by each. See 225.37.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Most every panel I use states it is listed for service equipment.


 
Me too.


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## CelticElect (Nov 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I believe I understand what you are trying to say but this is not correct. In a new service the neutrals and grounds are bonded together. In a separate structure the neutrals and grounds are separated and the rod is connected to the egc not the neutral bar.


If you can please read 250.32 (D)(3) and tell me what you get out of that. I junction with this article, look at 408.3(C). 
Thanks Dennis


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

CelticElect said:


> If you can please read 250.32 (D)(3) and tell me what you get out of that. I junction with this article, look at 408.3(C).
> Thanks Dennis


I do not see what 408.3(C) has to do with 250.32(D)(3). 408.3(C) is when the panel is used as service equipment not listed for service equipment. A panel in a remote building must be suitable for service equipment but it is nothing more than a sub panel with a ground rod and main disconnect.

If you run 4 wires to the separate structure and bond the neutral and grounds then you have created a parallel neutral which would be non compliant. The equipment ground must be connected to the rod and the neutral shall stay isolated from them in the separate structure.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I've never seen a panel listed that way, IMO, if the breaker is ANSI/UL 489 listed in a listed enclosure, it is service rated.


Dig deep in the fine print of the instructions of most panels of the type that were formally known as "lighting and appliance branch circuit panels". Most say they are suitable for use as service equipment when used with a single main breaker.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am wrong...you can use two breakers as disconnects and still have the panel rated as "suitable for use as service equipment".
The following is from the UL marking guide for Panelboards.


> 10. A lighting and appliance panelboard marked as suitable for use as service equipment is limited to two main disconnects. .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I am wrong...you can use two breakers as disconnects and still have the panel rated as "suitable for use as service equipment".
> The following is from the UL marking guide for Panelboards.


But that is passe. We no longer have lighting and appliance branch panelboards.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> But that is passe. We no longer have lighting and appliance branch panelboards.


Dennis,
You will find that same statement somewhere in the instructions that are provided with the panels that were, in the past, called lighting and appliance branch circuit panels. The listing rules have not changed.

It appears that the term was only dropped in the NEC. Square D, GE and Eaton still call them "lighting and appliance branch circuit panels in their online catalogs.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Dennis,
> You will find that same statement somewhere in the instructions that are provided with the panels that were, in the past, called lighting and appliance branch circuit panels. The listing rules have not changed.
> 
> It appears that the term was only dropped in the NEC. Square D, GE and Eaton still call them "lighting and appliance branch circuit panels in their online catalogs.


Well there were literally thousands of ITE panels installed around here that were WP main lug 12 cir. panels. The EC installed up to 6 DP breakers as the main disconnect for the homes. I guess no one caught that one. I just looked at one we may change out. I should have thought to look at it and see if that info was on there. I have rarely done a job that way. If I did it was 25 years ago or more.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I just checked a 30 cir, ML panel I have in the basement and it does state suitable for service equipment with main breaker. WTG- Don


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well there were literally thousands of ITE panels installed around here that were WP main lug 12 cir. panels. The EC installed up to 6 DP breakers as the main disconnect for the homes. I guess no one caught that one. I just looked at one we may change out. I should have thought to look at it and see if that info was on there. I have rarely done a job that way. If I did it was 25 years ago or more.


Around 25 or 30 years ago it seems that Alabama Power installed a boat load of 12 ckt meter sockets. They are everywhere. Typically, the water heater, range, dryer, A/C, and old fuse panel is fed from them. Alot of times I see a couple of single poles jammed in there too:laughing:

I guess they interpret the existing fuse panel as a "house panel", and have seven disconnects:laughing:


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## dana1028 (Jul 15, 2011)

My house has an 8-slot 100A panel that is rated as service equipment IF there are no line-to-neutral loads. It has four 2-pole breakers feeding other panels and 240v loads.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

dana1028 said:


> My house has an 8-slot 100A panel that is rated as service equipment IF there are no line-to-neutral loads. It has four 2-pole breakers feeding other panels and 240v loads.


If a panelboard had line to neutral loads and you only had 6 breakers then that would be more than 10%. In the 2005 a L&ABP would be one that had more than 10% of the loads for appliance and lighting branch circuits. If it were an L&APB then you could only have 2 mains max.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dennis.,



> Quote:
> (E) Identification. Where a building or structure is supplied
> by more than one service, or any combination of branch circuits, feeders, and services, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each service disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, and branch circuits supplying that building or structure and the area served by each. See 225.37.


Will this part do included the transfer switches if feed more than one location ??

The reason why I asked due someone asked me this question not too long ago that person stated have single generator but have two transfer swtiches ( one ATS and other is MTS ) so this part will cover this?

Merci,
Marc


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dennis.,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marc, I believe the 2011 has addressed that issue.



> 225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
> *Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in
> 225.30(A) through (E).*
> For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dennis ., Merci for the details for the NEC and somehow I did not catch it but I did have 2008 Edition but just got the 2011 NEC edition but just start to read it ( to compound it I have to read the ECF aka Normes De France ) and the wording in the Normes is simauir to what you just posted.

Merci.
Marc


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