# Shocked by neutral!



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

What are the circumstances needed to get shocked by a neutral conductor? More specifically, a neutral wire that is still grounded and part of a mwbc. I've been shocked before by the neutral (neutral to ground) with the circuit off and the circuit complete (neutral connected to the source). I've searched around on here, and found a couple of posts (made by Brian John and I think "Shorty Circuit") that touched on this but I would like more information.

If someone is familiar with this theory, or can steer me towards some online information, please post.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

You can always get a shock off a neutral if it is opened and you put yourself between the neutral from a connected load and ground.


Shorty was nuts, he was trying to say that the voltage drop on the neutral created by harmonic currents would cause enough difference of potential to get a shock. That to me is just untrue. The voltage drop would have to be more than 50 volts to even begin to get a shock off it, if you had that much voltage drop the circuit would not work.

So either the neutral is open, or it has some high resistance connections.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Shorty was nuts, he was trying to say that the voltage drop on the neutral created by harmonic currents would cause enough difference of potential to get a shock. That to me is just untrue. The voltage drop would have to be more than 50 volts to even begin to get a shock off it, if you had that much voltage drop the circuit would not work.
> 
> So either the neutral is open, or it has some high resistance connections.


Thank you, that's what I was talking about. I don't believe everything I read on here but Brian John also talked about the difference in potential due to voltage drop but didn't mention what amount of potential would be expected on a normally operating circuit. I know it's not 50 volts so I was obviously shocked due to some bad connections somewhere.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

You can never be shocked by a neutral.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

I got what felt like the full 120V from a neutral where I'd done the following:
1. Turned off what I thought was it's breaker.
2. Undid the wire nut that held together a neutral cluster.
I got shocked by one of the neutrals in the cluster I'd undone.
The breaker was labeled kitchen GFI.
I'm thinking the neutral may have been shared with another kitchen circuit (L1, L2 shared neutral).

Maybe there was an appliance plugged in and switched on that caused this?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Mr Rewire said:


> You can never be shocked by a neutral.


If you have more to offer than offer it but that statement standing alone is just not accurate.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> You can never be shocked by a neutral.


 Just the other day in a thread on bootleg grounds I explained three jobs I've worked on where people were shocked by neutral current. 

These weren't severe shocks, but they were definitely noticeable, I experienced one of them first hand.

I will say I'd never expect someone to be injured or electrocuted by a shock from a working neutral.

-John


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

As Bob said-- put yourself in the path of a return neutral and it very well be fatal. For instance. Let say a refrigerator was running and you lift the neutral at the panel. Now grab the end and touch the grounded panel and the refrigerator will try and start using your body as a means to return to ground. Ouch..... if you're lucky.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

The neutral on a 3 phase mwbc will definitely kill you if you get hung up on it.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

One of the worst shocks in my life was from a neutral. It was long before I went to trade school, and knew only enought to be dangerous. I hung one ceiling fan in a house trailer, then went on to the next bedroom to do another. My mistake was leaving the first one running. The second box was a junction feeding the other room. I was very careful with the hot, and didn't get shocked. But was sure that I could never be hurt by a white wire. When I twisted the whites I did it by hand instead of with pliers. The first fan tried to start through my fingers when I started to twist. Very nasty shock, and I have had several for reference.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

We hear people say you cant get electrocuted your dead that is also untrue .

Yes you can get it from the neutral !

277 volts thur ballasts there this thing called a auto transformer inside fixture if you break the neutral it will in effect give you more than 277 volts by series connection of all them ballast dumping it back into the circuit its called inductance each adds to the voltage in circuit .

With power off you may pick up voltage from any other hot on that common neutral connection before they came out with 3 pole breakers now installed on 3 wire branch circuits sharing one neutral .

Ive been shock by 480 volts 277 volts 120 volts 1400 volts 3 phase and single phase .

And ive been electrocuted and lived sorry but i disagree with your posts there are folks who have been on A phase and B phase .

I was around before the GFI days and can say its not fun .

Now i cant wait to hear the safe freaks and folks who think its a made up story .


Cant hold back the worst was head shot going up in a ceiling no hard hat! no cover on box above me open didnt know this at the time !

277 volts hot and neutral hanging out bare ran my head into it wow seemed like hours when i got hit thur my head and arms to grid ! I was on a 8 foot ladder wooden arms went out dropped and took out the lay in ceiling with me .

Back then you didnt go to the doctor you just smoked ! After a hour of thinking about it boss said you ok lets get back to work !


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

piperunner said:


> And ive been electrocuted and lived .


Interesting, care to expand on this? Please.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

roger123 said:


> interesting, care to expand on this? Please.


lol............


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I know a guy that just about got killed by a neutral. 
He was working on some 277 lighting that he thought he had off, 20' up on an extention ladder. 

He had to reach through the barjoists to get to the j-box so he was solidly grounded. Anyway he opened up the neutrals and wound up with one in each hand. 
He tensed up so bad he bent the webbing in the barjoists, it blew out both carpal tunnels. Everyone there said he smelled like burt balogna. 
The only thing that saved his life was he fell off the ladder.

That was over ten years ago and he still isnt right, he can't remember things very well and his fine motor skills are shot.

A neutral will definately F you up.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Interesting, care to expand on this? Please.


 Only through a Medium at a Seance! :laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> The neutral on a 3 phase mwbc will definitely kill you if you get hung up on it.


The voltage will be no greater than the L to N voltage.

So ...... it is no different than getting hung up on the neutral of a two wire circuit.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The voltage will be no greater than the L to N voltage.
> 
> So ...... it is no different than getting hung up on the neutral of a two wire circuit.



True that, but usually on a 3 phase 277 in a retail setting they will have it loaded up with a lot more lights.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> True that, but usually on a 3 phase 277 in a retail setting they will have it loaded up with a lot more lights.


That's the key. Amperage will kill you a lot more easily than voltage at these lower voltages anyway.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> We hear people say you cant get electrocuted your dead that is also untrue ...............
> 
> 
> And ive been electrocuted and lived sorry but i disagree with your posts ...........


Try reading up on the *definition* of electrocution.




piperunner said:


> .......there are folks who have been on A phase and B phase ...............


That neither defines or excludes electrocution. 




piperunner said:


> .......I was around before the GFI days and can say its not fun ...........


So was I, but that doesn't change anything. You still have never been electrocuted.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> True that, but usually on a 3 phase 277 in a retail setting they will have it loaded up with a lot more lights.


The number of fixtures has nothing to do with the voltage you experience if you use your body to complete the circuit.

The neutral of a 277 volt MWBC cannot shock you any harder than the grounded conductor of a two wire 277 volt circuit. 



Dennis Alwon said:


> That's the key. Amperage will kill you a lot more easily than voltage at these lower voltages anyway.


Almost any single lighting fixture connected to a 120 or 277 volt circuit will draw more than enough current to kill you.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

Could a person be electrocuted and live if a defibrillator was used to re-start the heart?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> True that, but usually on a 3 phase 277 in a retail setting they will have it loaded up with a lot more lights.


 

I'm talking about your body becoming a parallel path (via ground) to neutral current in which case more lights would make a difference, but being in series with the current, like if you separated the neutrals, I would think more impedance would lessen the shock.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Roger123 said:


> Interesting, care to expand on this? Please.



He is a zombie and posting from beyond the grave.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> Interesting, care to expand on this? Please.


Yes story no 2 # Capacitor bank for a motor control center hooking up control stuff inside shut down disconnect !


Open door theres a sign says danger wait 10 minutes for resistor discharge on caps .


I didnt see it went in this cabinet elbow on A phase and hand went on B phase now dont ask me why because i wasnt looking for it just trying to get into the cabinet better i guess .

I could feel the electrons flowing thur my chest yes it feels like water flow inside you !

The caps discharged thur my arm and hand burnt both could not move my arm for hours .

felt like sitting down but i was on the floor already so if you tag A & B current flows thur elbow of arm thur chest to hand return . Yes it hurt Ive got more stories want to hear another this one is bad and i lost my hearing in my left ear from it high voltage this time . But lets see if you agree or not first ?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> We hear people say you cant get electrocuted your dead that is also untrue .
> 
> Yes you can get it from the neutral !
> 
> ...


You should not leave the house without wearing full ppe. You sound very accident prone and maybe you shouldn't be working on live circuits period.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

This thread is becoming a classic case of not understanding the simple physics of Ohm's Law. :thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CFL said:


> I'm talking about your body becoming a parallel path (via ground) to neutral current in which case more lights would make a difference, but being in series with the current, like if you separated the neutrals, I would think more impedance would lessen the shock.


If you are measuring things with a meter I am sure it would make a difference, if you are passing that current through your body I think it makes little difference.


It only takes a few mA to mess you up, I think 100 mA is considered lethal. 

It does not much of a fixture to draw 100 mA.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Yes story no 2 # Capacitor bank for a motor control center hooking up control stuff inside shut down disconnect !
> 
> 
> Open door theres a sign says danger wait 10 minutes for resistor discharge on caps .
> ...


I missed the part in there where you died and came back to life.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The number of fixtures has nothing to do with the voltage you experience if you use your body to complete the circuit.
> 
> I'm not saying it's the voltage. I believe it's the unbalanced current giving you that loving feeling. You take a 277 lighting circuit loaded up with 20-30 lay ins and I'll go grab the one with 1 light and see who screams the loudest.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If you are measuring things with a meter I am sure it would make a difference, if you are passing that current through your body I think it makes little difference.
> 
> 
> It only takes a few mA to mess you up, I think 100 mA is considered lethal.
> ...


So are you saying shock (strong sensation) is likely being parallel with neutral.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> BBQ said:
> 
> 
> > The number of fixtures has nothing to do with the voltage you experience if you use your body to complete the circuit.
> ...


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> This thread is becoming a classic case of not understanding the simple physics of Ohm's Law. :thumbup:


Simple physics of Ohm's Law? Instead of wasting all those keystrokes on bs comments enlighten me please. I don't think it's simple at all.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've never heard a technical reason why a neutral shock should hurt worse or be more dangerous than a phase shock. Volts is volts, amps is amps.

I think it's just surprise. White wires don't usually shock you.
















-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> I'm not saying it's the voltage. I believe it's the unbalanced current giving you that loving feeling. You take a 277 lighting circuit loaded up with 20-30 lay ins and I'll go grab the one with 1 light and see who screams the loudest.


And IMO it will not be any different.

It is like worrying about the difference between being hit by a care doing 60 or the same car doing 61. 

I just get so sick of hearing 'getting hit off the neutral is worse' .... that is pure BS, voltage and current will be the same anywhere in the circuit ....... might even be less in current in the neutral of a MWBC.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

CFL said:


> Loose Neutral said:
> 
> 
> > Grab one what?
> ...


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I've never heard a technical reason why a neutral shock should hurt worse or be more dangerous than a phase shock. Volts is volts, amps is amps.
> 
> I think it's just surprise. White wires don't usually shock you.
> 
> ...


No, that's not the question. I don't think the shock is any worse at all. Why would it be? 
Read my first post please. I value your input but you misunderstand me.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I think it's just surprise. White wires don't usually shock you.


I think that is the reason, it is just so unexpected. The person may have even reached right out and grabbed onto the 'safe' white wire.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CFL said:


> I missed the part in there where you died and came back to life.


Guess you did miss it most folks read what they think is true yes most folks would be dead but do all die from being part of a circuit nop ! No i did not die but had current flow thur me whats that a shock full connection between phases is not a ground fault .

Guess you need it documented by paper or a video of it sorry cant help ya .

Would you believe there was a man electrocuted in a electric chair and lived ?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> CFL said:
> 
> 
> > The neutral.
> ...


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I think that is the reason, it is just so unexpected. The person may have even reached right out and grabbed onto the 'safe' white wire.


Like I told Big John, you are misunderstanding me.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

CFL said:


> No, that's not the question. I don't think the shock is any worse at all. Why would it be...?


 I wasn't directing that at you, just making a general reply to a couple different things I read in here. 

I hear a lot of guys say/imply that a neutral shock is somehow worse. 

-John


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And IMO it will not be any different.
> 
> It is like worrying about the difference between being hit by a care doing 60 or the same car doing 61.
> 
> I just get so sick of hearing 'getting hit off the neutral is worse' .... that is pure BS, voltage and current will be the same anywhere in the circuit ....... might even be less in current in the neutral of a MWBC.



Depends if it's balanced. Oh well to each his own. I know I've had my fillings rattled a couple of times and I definitely respect the neutral.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Guess you did miss it most folks read what they think is true yes most folks would be dead but do all die from being part of a circuit nop ! No i did not die but had current flow thur me whats that a shock full connection between phases is not a ground fault .
> 
> Guess you need it documented by paper or a video of it sorry cant help ya .
> 
> Would you believe there was a man electrocuted in a electric chair and lived ?


I've been shocked before too, hence why I started this post. I don't think I died though. And again, at what point did you die?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Depends if it's balanced. Oh well to each his own. I know I've had my fillings rattled a couple of times and I definitely respect the neutral.


You can't say to each his own. We all live in the same world governed by the same laws of physics.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Are you all journeymen? I'm suprised you guys don't know that electricity returns. If the circuit can complete through you, it will.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You must not have read the definition 480 gave the link to. 

*Electrocution*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search 

This article *needs additional citations for verification.*
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. _(April 2011)_"Electrocute" redirects here. For the band, see Electrocute (band).


*Electrocution* is the stopping of life (determined by a stopped heart) by any type of electric shock. In the vernacular, the term electrocution is used to mean:

death, murder or suicide by electric shock
deliberate execution by electric shock, usually involving an electric chair; the word "electrocution" is a portmanteau for "electrical execution"
Electrocution is also frequently used to refer to any electric shock received but is technically incorrect.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I got wacked between an open neutral and grounding conductor on a refrigerator circuit, ouch!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

CFL said:


> You can't say to each his own. We all live in the same world governed by the same laws of physics.



I can and i did.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Are you all journeymen? I'm suprised you guys don't know that electricity returns. If the circuit can complete through you, it will.


This doesn't make much sense but I think I know what you're trying to say. I don't think anyone who has posted is unaware that electricity flows in a circuit. 

Do you want to try posting again but using better grammar?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> I can and i did.


You're being stupid. I can't take you serious.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

backstay said:


> You must not have read the definition 480 gave the link to.
> 
> *Electrocution*
> 
> ...


Who are you addressing this to?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Worse*

What's worse. 

Grounding yourself out on a 277V Neutral at 3.6 amps 

or 

120V at 8.3 amps ???


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CFL said:


> Who are you addressing this to?



You CFL 
*Indianapolis man approved for face transplant 
*

GO TO U TUBE !

Electrocuted and lived now ive got to find one more thats better than this one


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Cletis said:


> What's worse.
> 
> Grounding yourself out on a 277V Neutral at 3.6 amps
> 
> ...


 Edit: I was being a smartass without reading carefully.

The 277 would hurt more. Current doesn't come into play.

-John


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yep*

Yeah. I know but it seems like the body might react different possibly? 

So you saying that 10 amps from a 120,277, 1,000, 10,000 volts doesn't really matter? 10 amps is 10 amps . It just seems too easy


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> You CFL
> *Indianapolis man approved for face transplant *
> 
> 
> ...


You did not post that dummy. That definition of electrocution backs up my point, not yours. 

When did you die dummy? Was someone there monitoring your pulse? Did they break out the AED? Did you talk to God? Tell me at what point in your story were you dead.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Yeah. I know but it seems like the body might react different possibly?
> 
> So you saying that 10 amps from a 120,277, 1,000, 10,000 volts doesn't really matter? 10 amps is 10 amps . It just seems too easy


The body would react differently. Higher voltage would decrease your body's resistance. Once your "insulation" (skin) has been compromised, your resistance will drop alot (don't know how much).

edit: that said, 10 amps is still 10 amps.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Cletis said:


> Yeah. I know but it seems like the body might react different possibly?
> 
> So you saying that 10 amps from a 120,277, 1,000, 10,000 volts doesn't really matter? 10 amps is 10 amps . It just seems too easy


 That's the problem with that saying "It's not the volts that get you, it's the amps." The voltage determines how bad a shock you get because the voltage pushes the available current through you.

The hand to foot resistance of the human body can be as low as 1,500 ohms.

Voltage ÷ Resistance = Current
120V ÷ 1,500Ω = 0.08 amps
277V ÷ 1,500Ω = 0.18 amps
1,000V ÷ 1,500Ω = 0.66 amps
10,000V ÷ 1,500Ω = 6.66 amps

It only takes 0.25 amps to kill you so any distribution circuit can supply enough amps to kill you.

-John


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CFL said:


> You did not post that dummy. That definition of electrocution backs up my point, not yours.
> 
> When did you die dummy? Was someone there monitoring your pulse? Did they break out the AED? Did you talk to God? Tell me at what point in your story were you dead.


 No AED when i started in the trade wimp !

Well i didnt die wimp ! but you dont have to die what about Fred van wormer 1903 sing sing he was electrocuted and lived they had to put him back in the chair and do it twice .

You really think everyone dies ! not true iam living


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

piperunner said:


> No AED when i started in the trade wimp !
> 
> Well i didnt die wimp ! but you dont have to die what about Fred van wormer 1903 sing sing he was electrocuted and lived they had to put him back in the chair and do it twice .
> 
> You really think everyone dies ! not true iam living


 
*What part of plain English do you not undrestand?*


*elec·tro·cute*

_verb_ \i-ˈlek-trə-ˌkyüt\
*elec·tro·cut·ed**elec·tro·cut·ing*
*Definition of ELECTROCUTE*

transitive verb
1
*:* to execute (a criminal) by electricity 

2
*:* to kill by electric shock 

— *elec·tro·cu·tion* \-ˌlek-trə-ˈkyü-shən\ _noun_ 
.learners-link div.learners-link-content{	font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;	font-size: 13px;	padding: 0 5px 0 22px;}.learners-link div.learners-link-content a .word{	text-decoration: none;}.learners-link div.learners-link-content a:hover .word{	color: #5358a9;	text-decoration: underline;}#content .definition div.d .learners-link a,#content .definition div.d .learners-link a:hover,#content .definition div.d .learners-link a:link,#content .definition div.d .learners-link a:visited{	color: black;	font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;	font-variant: normal;	font-size: 13px;	text-decoration: none;} See electrocute defined for English-language learners »

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/electrocution

Yelling louder doesn't make you right, it proves your ignorant when you fail to observe facts.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> You CFL
> *Indianapolis man approved for face transplant
> *
> 
> ...



Just because someone one a YouTube video misuses the word electrocution doesn't make you right. That simply means they're misusing the word just like you are.

If you have been electrocuted, you are dead, or have been dead. Simple as that.




piperunner said:


> No AED when i started in the trade wimp !
> 
> Well i didnt die wimp ! but you dont have to die what about Fred van wormer 1903 sing sing he was electrocuted and lived they had to put him back in the chair and do it twice ....




He wasn't electrocuted the first time around then... he was merely shocked.




piperunner said:


> You really think everyone dies ! not true iam living


You WERE NOT ELECTROCUTED. You received a SHOCK.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Just because someone one a YouTube video misuses the word electrocution doesn't make you right. That simply means they're misusing the word just like you are.
> 
> If you have been electrocuted, you are dead, or have been dead. Simple as that.


 * Killing with the chair*

 After Brown made his case through the public “execution” of number of animals, the use of electrocution as a capital punishment went into law in 1888. William Kemmler of Buffalo, New York was slated to be the first man put to death using the chair after he was convicted of brutally butchering Matilda Ziegler with an axe. After a seventeen second jolt of electricity was piped through Kemmler, witnesses reported that he was unconscious but still breathing. Prison officials tried a second time, and yet again. Kemmler thrashed and convulsed and his skin and hair caught fire, creating an overpowering stench of roasting flesh within the small chamber. The time elapsed from the initial shock to his pronounced death: eight minutes.
 The second and third electric executions were flawless examples of the chair’s effectiveness. The fourth, however, was possibly the most notoriously gruesome. Similar to Kemmler’s experience, William Taylor did not die from the first shock he received. Instead, his legs stiffened so suddenly and violently, that he tore away from the restraints on the chair and was freed. He was kept alive via cholorform and morphine while the generator, which blew in the initial blast, was repaired. Over an hour later, he was returned to chair and executed.
 1903 marked the last recorded botched execution using electricity when Fred Van Wormer was killed in the chair, but was later found to be breathing in the autopsy room. The executioner had already left and had to be recalled to electrocute the still living 
 Van Wormer. By the time the executioner had returned, Van Wormer had passed away in earnest, but was set upon the chair and electrocuted for an additional thirty seconds, making him the first dead man to be re-killed by the chair.


If current passes thur you your electrocuted its just simple .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> * Killing with the chair*
> 
> After Brown made his case through the public “execution” of number of animals, the use of electrocution as a capital punishment went into law in 1888. William Kemmler of Buffalo, New York was slated to be the first man put to death using the chair after he was convicted of brutally butchering Matilda Ziegler with an axe. After a seventeen second jolt of electricity was piped through Kemmler, witnesses reported that he was unconscious but still breathing. Prison officials tried a second time, and yet again. Kemmler thrashed and convulsed and his skin and hair caught fire, creating an overpowering stench of roasting flesh within the small chamber. The time elapsed from the initial shock to his pronounced death: eight minutes.
> The second and third electric executions were flawless examples of the chair’s effectiveness. The fourth, however, was possibly the most notoriously gruesome. Similar to Kemmler’s experience, *William Taylor did not die from the first shock he received*. Instead, his legs stiffened so suddenly and violently, that he tore away from the restraints on the chair and was freed. He was kept alive via cholorform and morphine while the generator, which blew in the initial blast, was repaired. Over an hour later, he was returned to chair and executed.
> ...



This means he was not electrocuted the first time. He was shocked.

What is it about this that is so difficult for you to understand?

All electrocutions are shocks, but not all shocks result in electrocution. Is it really that hard to comprehend?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> This means he was not electrocuted the first time. He was shocked.
> 
> What is it about this that is so difficult for you to understand?
> 
> All electrocutions are shocks, but not all shocks result in electrocution. Is it really that hard to comprehend?


I understand this but you dont how could he not be electrocuted the first time if current passed thur him . because he did not die the first time da!


Whats you problem dont you understand 480 volts .

I just like the one way thinking if current passes thur something its called what a shock .


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

480sparky said:


> This means he was not electrocuted the first time. He was shocked.
> 
> What is it about this that is so difficult for you to understand?
> 
> All electrocutions are shocks, but not all shocks result in electrocution. Is it really that hard to comprehend?



Were not talking about william taylor how about freddy !


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> * Killing with the chair*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know I shouldn't pick on you but it's not "thur", it's through. You just keep on repeating it. It makes you look ignorant and noone is going to take you serious. 

Current passes through you when they use an AED on you. I'm pretty sure they're not electrocuting you.

I called you a dummy because you sound dumb. Not sure why I'm a wimp, but that's beside the point.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CFL said:


> I know I shouldn't pick on you but it's not "thur", it's through. You just keep on repeating it. It makes you look ignorant and noone is going to take you serious.
> 
> Current passes through you when they use an AED on you. I'm pretty sure they're not electrocuting you.
> 
> I called you a dummy because you sound dumb. Not sure why I'm a wimp, but that's beside the point.


Well dummy was used already .


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> I understand this but you dont how could he not be electrocuted the first time if current passed thur him . because he did not die the first time da!
> 
> 
> Whats you problem dont you understand 480 volts .
> ...


Please, just read your post out loud to yourself. Does it make sense to you?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> I understand this but you dont how could he not be electrocuted the first time if current passed thur him . because he did not die the first time da!
> 
> 
> Whats you problem dont you understand 480 volts .


No. I understand 12, 24, 48, 120, 208, 240, 277, 347, 525 and 600 volts just fine. 480 give me fits. :jester:



piperunner said:


> I just like the one way thinking if current passes thur something its called what a shock .



If a person has electric current flow through them, they are shocked. If they die as a result, then it's electrocution. It's THAT SIMPLE!









​


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Well dummy was used already .


 fair enough


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

​


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> I understand this but you dont how could he not be electrocuted the first time if current passed thur him . because he did not die the first time da!
> 
> I just like the one way thinking if current passes thur something its called what a shock .


He was hanged=shocked

He was hanged until dead=electrocution

GET's NO SIMPLER THAN THAT.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Please...Let's cut out the assault on each other and argue the facts without name calling.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I fall in a lake and climb out..... I got wet.

I fall in a lake and die underwater...... I drowned.


Now, does falling into a lake mean I drowned?











.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Hey, Brian, can you give any insight as to my original question.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

For the sake of peace here, it is common thought that electrocution means dying although many people use it differently. Generally we say we got shocked not electrocuted. Lets just leave it at that.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I fall in a lake and climb out..... I got wet.
> 
> I fall in a lake and die underwater...... I drowned.
> 
> ...


 I'm still waiting for you explain how this is a simple Ohm's Law problem. I'm not saying it's not simple, but I don't know the answer.









.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

CFL said:


> fair enough


We dont see eye to eye ! I think i know how current flows but a AED does pass current into body you put the pads on damp on chest over heart and lower abdomen or below heart and pass current and volts via pads this starts your heart as it jumps back by the jolt of electric passing into the pads across your body into your heart area . I left out the word thur some day i hope they kinda put that in the dictionary like OMG is now realized as one .


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

electricity+execute=electrocute


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> We dont see eye to eye ! I think i know how current flows but a AED does pass current into body you put the pads on damp on chest over heart and lower abdomen or below heart and pass current and volts via pads this starts your heart as it jumps back by the jolt of electric passing into the pads across your body into your heart area .


So, does that mean that they electrocuted you?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CFL said:


> I'm still waiting for you explain how this is a simple Ohm's Law problem. I'm not saying it's not simple, but I don't know the answer.
> 
> .



Draw it out, using a resistance value of a human body (yea, I know, it's not a set value!) into a circuit. Then see what the current would be.


----------



## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If you have more to offer than offer it but that statement standing alone is just not accurate.


 Yes the statement standing alone is acurate . The problem arises when we start to describe a wire with the term neutral whan in fact it is just a white wire that is now in series with the load. When a person is shocked by a white wire what they have done is become the load in a circuit.You can place a white wire on the grounded buss and put it under your tongue and you will not reieve a shock (proper connected panel).


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

[PDF] *Intracardiac voltage gradients during transthoracic defibrillation ...*


Read this thur !!! This isnt to help 480 i dont like him hes on your side !


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

piperunner said:


> [PDF] *Intracardiac voltage gradients during transthoracic defibrillation ...*
> 
> 
> Read this thur !!!


Is that what was used to bring you back to normal sinus rhythm after you were electrocuted?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Draw it out, using a resistance value of a human body (yea, I know, it's not a set value!) into a circuit. Then see what the current would be.


Does the type of load (ie. fluorescent lighting) change anything? I know it does, but does it have a measurable effect on someone getting shocked. Maybe I'm too gullable and gave "shorty circuit" too much credit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CFL said:


> Does the type of load (ie. fluorescent lighting) change anything? I know it does, but does it have a measurable effect on someone getting shocked. Maybe I'm too gullable and gave "shorty circuit" too much credit.



Draw it out, insert some resistances to represent the lights, and do the math.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> What are the circumstances needed to get shocked by a neutral conductor? More specifically, a neutral wire that is still grounded and part of a mwbc. I've been shocked before by the neutral (neutral to ground) with the circuit off and the circuit complete (neutral connected to the source).


I think some of this has been covered but.

Take a single 120 VAC incandescent bulb on a circuit on a circuit, lamp lights. Open/disconnect the neutral take your meter and measure the voltage at the bulb and you have 120 VAC. The bulb/ ballast, and most load all loads are simply a conductor in the circuit. Become part of this path and you are a conductor carrying voltage and current. How much. how bad, how shocked or killed (ELECTROCUTED). Depends on a lot of factors.

To get shocked by a single neutral say the other side of the disconnected neutral above (the portion of the neutral circuit returning to the panel) Slim to none.

To be come part of a parallel path with the neutral. You touch a neutral some distance from the panel loaded to the max 20 amps with a one way length of the circuit 350'. An extreme situation for sure. The measure neutral voltage, or voltage drop between the neutral at the load and ground assuming a properly installed circuit, no grounds on the neutral, would be 28 VAC. Can you feel 28 VAC yes, is it dangerous. It can be depending on the person. 

FROM ALL ABOUT CIRCUITS (reliable source?)

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html

"In industry, 30 volts is generally considered to be a conservative threshold value for dangerous voltage."


MORE FROM ALL ABOUT CIRCUITS

"*Ohm's Law (again!)*


A common phrase heard in reference to electrical safety goes something like this: "It's not voltage that kills, its current!" While there is an element of truth to this, there's more to understand about shock hazard than this simple adage. If voltage presented no danger, no one would ever print and display signs saying: DANGER -- HIGH VOLTAGE!

The principle that "current kills" is essentially correct. It is electric current that burns tissue, freezes muscles, and fibrillates hearts. However, electric current doesn't just occur on its own: there must be voltage available to motivate electrons to flow through a victim. A person's body also presents resistance to current, which must be taken into account.

Taking Ohm's Law for voltage, current, and resistance, and expressing it in terms of current for a given voltage and resistance, we have this equation:



The amount of current through a body is equal to the amount of voltage applied between two points on that body, divided by the electrical resistance offered by the body between those two points. Obviously, the more voltage available to cause electrons to flow, the easier they will flow through any given amount of resistance. Hence, the danger of high voltage: high voltage means potential for large amounts of current through your body, which will injure or kill you. Conversely, the more resistance a body offers to current, the slower electrons will flow for any given amount of voltage. Just how much voltage is dangerous depends on how much total resistance is in the circuit to oppose the flow of electrons."


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Not to go off track here, but the guy who mentioned getting blasted by a capacitor. I've never experienced that, but i'm always concerned, when working near one. I read you should ground it out first with a screwdriver ? Anyone with knowledge of how to safeguard ?


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

piperunner said:


> [PDF] *Intracardiac voltage gradients during transthoracic defibrillation ...*
> 
> 
> Read this thur !!! This isnt to help 480 i dont like him hes on your side !


SIDES? Sides is a kids thing. Try in-depth exploration into knowledge. Look at the proofs offered. Use critical thinking skills! Perception and comprehension are the keys. Might, does not make right.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

When you open a neutral and place yourself in the path, it doesn't matter what the type of load (lighting, refrigerator, etc) was on the circuit. That load is now non-functional. Placing yourself in series with it has now increased the resistance of the circuit so much that almost no voltage is dropped across the real load, and nearly all of it is dropped across you.

Since voltage only drops when current flows, and the current flow depends on resistance, it is your resistance that matters, because the real load resistance is likely almost nothing compared to you. 

As for parallel shocks on a neutral of a dead circuit, I'd say that it is likely that some other circuit is sharing that neutral somewhere you are unaware of. I have found neutrals hijacked from other spaces in multioccupancy buildings, and have current on the neutral even with the meter pulled. 

For a parallel path, the voltage drop on the neutral would have to be very large, huge in fact, for you to even feel it tingle.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Common sources of electric shock muscle, nerve, tissue and skin injuries, or electrocution, are:


lightning
machinery
electric cords
electrical wiring
electrical outlets
electric appliances
high-voltage power lines
Iam now confused lost and maybe i did die once is this hell!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

dronai said:


> Not to go off track here, but the guy who mentioned getting blasted by a capacitor. I've never experienced that, but i'm always concerned, when working near one. I read you should ground it out first with a screwdriver ? Anyone with knowledge of how to safeguard ?


Drain it through a source appropriate for the voltage or wait.

A wiggy will drain most cap (small cap systems), we use universal motors (drills sawzalls), lamps.......


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> SIDES? Sides is a kids thing. Try in-depth exploration into knowledge. Look at the proofs offered. Use critical thinking skills! Perception and comprehension are the keys. Might, does not make right.


 Are we thur with this thread yet????


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

dronai said:


> Not to go off track here, but the guy who mentioned getting blasted by a capacitor. I've never experienced that, but i'm always concerned, when working near one. I read you should ground it out first with a screwdriver ? Anyone with knowledge of how to safeguard ?


See article 460.6.

Capicitors are stored energy waiting to go.

Didn't you ever charge up a capacitor with a megger in apprenticeship, and toss it to the unsuspecting?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> SIDES? Sides is a kids thing. Try in-depth exploration into knowledge. Look at the proofs offered. Use critical thinking skills! Perception and comprehension are the keys. Might, does not make right.


That was a joke ya know hee hee ha ha ! let me look up all those words in the dictionary ill be back .:001_huh:

And 480 knows me i think !

Guess the post above didnt see it but the sign said capacitors must be discharged wait 10 minutes i didnt wait thats why i got zapped i used that because i not sure what to say i didnt die but current passed thur me .


At 480 volts 3 phase 1200 kvar its not fun.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

A neutral wire is the return leg of a circuit; in building wiring systems the neutral wire is connected to earth ground at least at one point. North American standards state that the neutral is neither switched nor fused. The neutral is connected to the center tap of the power company transformer of a split-phase system, or the center of the wye connection of a polyphase power system. American electrical codes require that the neutral be connected to earth at the "service panel" only and at no other point within the building wiring system. Formally the neutral is called the "grounded conductor"; as of the 2008 NEC, the terms "neutral conductor" and "neutral point" have been defined in the Code to record what had been common usage.[1]


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Trying to eliminate this post


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Rockyd said:


> See article 460.6.
> 
> Capicitors are stored energy waiting to go.
> 
> Didn't you ever charge up a capacitor with a megger in apprenticeship, and toss it to the unsuspecting?


I went thru a electrical maint. program, NEC Code, Theory, and Motor controls. No capacitors were discussed ??? I know what they are used for ! just not how long they take to discharge etc.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

piperunner said:


> We hear people say you cant get electrocuted your dead that is also untrue .
> 
> Yes you can get it from the neutral !
> 
> ...



Please do us all a favor and practice effective communication. It's a pain to try to make sense of your garbled words.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Common sources of electric shock muscle, nerve, tissue and skin injuries, or electrocution, are:
> 
> 
> lightning
> ...


You fell from heaven to hell?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

dronai said:


> I went thru a electrical maint. program, NEC Code, Theory, and Moter controls. No capacitors were discussed ??? I know what they are used for ! just not how long they take to discharge etc.


Well a 1200 kvar cap bank can stay charged with out its bleeder resistor for a very long time like days or weeks or months . This wasnt you radio shack caps







kinda looks like this and this is the one i got zapped from


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

brian john said:


> Drain it through a source appropriate for the voltage or wait.
> 
> A wiggy will drain most cap (small cap systems), we use universal motors (drills sawzalls), lamps.......


 

Much thanks, I usually encounter one with certain types of Cap start ballast, and fear being zapped when 21' up a ladder, working on the Tennis court lights.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well a 1200 kvar cap bank can stay charged with out its bleeder resistor for a very long time like days or weeks or months . This wasnt you radio shack caps


I should have added through a bleeder resistor )sometime installed in/with caps or through a resistor.

always check for voltage. leave the resistor connected, unitll voltage is dissipated.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

CFL said:


> I'm talking about your body becoming a parallel path (via ground) to neutral current in which case more lights would make a difference, but being in series with the current, like if you separated the neutrals, I would think more impedance would lessen the shock.



You have it backwards. If you were "only" a parallel path then that means that the other path still is intact and you will not draw very much because you are much more resistance for the current to pass through than are the circuits conductors. But if you are the replacement path (connected in series through the neutral) then you are the only path and you are taking all of the current.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

capacitors are (or used to be) sheets of aluminum foil separated by wax paper, and a lead comin out. Off the top of my head, I think (ya - that's dangerous) they are supposed to discharge in 2 minutes
otherwise do the resistor bleed - if it "bleeds" through you -you'll know it!.

Caps are great boosters, or for filtering on ac to dc - and building ac 'waves'.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Would you believe there was a man electrocuted in a electric chair and lived ?


You mean they attempted to electrocute him. But since he lived that means they failed at their attempt.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Rockyd said:


> capacitors are (or used to be) sheets of aluminum foil separated by wax paper, and a lead comin out. Off the top of my head, I think (ya - that's dangerous) they are supposed to discharge in 2 minutes
> otherwise do the resistor bleed - if it "bleeds" through you -you'll know it!.
> 
> Caps are great boosters, or for filtering on ac to dc - and building ac 'waves'.


 
Thanks for that. I used to hear stories, about TV repairman in the old days of tube TV's getting blasted by Caps !


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> capacitors are (or used to be) sheets of aluminum foil separated by wax paper, and a lead comin out. Off the top of my head, I think (ya - that's dangerous) they are supposed to discharge in 2 minutes
> otherwise do the resistor bleed - if it "bleeds" through you -you'll know it!.
> 
> Caps are great boosters, or for filtering on ac to dc.


Well with all due respect these were oil fill metal cans and hold a charge for months if not discharged they are bigg CAPS the complete unit was 2500 lbs .

You can make a capacitor from a beer bottle if your hard up salt water capacitor like the layen jar . A simple 6 pack of beer bottles can take 240 volts and kill you .

Just to add a wiggy is not the way to go on this one kinda lotsa watts


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Well with all due respect these were oil fill metal cans and hold a charge for months if not discharged they are bigg CAPS the complete unit was 2500 lbs .
> 
> You can make a capacitor from a beer bottle if your hard up salt water capacitor like the layen jar . A simple 6 pack of beer bottles can take 240 volts and kill you .
> 
> Just to add a wiggy is not the way to go on this one kinda lotsa watts


it's all good...

Oh ya! I was talking the little ones, like on single phase motors, etc.

Different story when out in the sub stations, and switch yards,normally have to have a lineman with us when we go there.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

steelersman said:


> You mean they attempted to electrocute him. But since he lived that means they failed at their attempt.


 Nop they electrocuted him but he didnt die the current zapped him and was still kicking he was alive so they did it twice . funny but its the law once your done thats it but they zapped him twice .:thumbsup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> it's all good...
> 
> Oh ya! I was talking the little ones, like on single phase motors, etc.
> 
> Different story when out in the sub stations, and switch yards,normally have to have a lineman with us when we go there.


Yup wish id had one with me that day i was young and geewezz i cant say it but dumm.

I know better now this was a bank for a motor control center a CEP for a state prison in florida .


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> You mean they attempted to electrocute him. But since he lived that means they failed at their attempt.


Could hear the executioner at home,

wife-How was your day?

Husband- I really screwed up, I didn't kill a customer today! I am soooo fired.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

brian john said:


> Could hear the executioner at he,
> 
> wife-How was your day?
> 
> Husband- I really screwed up, I didn't kill a customer today! I am soooo fired.


What a job how does one ask for a pay increase . Sorry i just could not help it Brian

Well lets try a different voltage each guy save the watts !


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I didn't get to muddle through all this.. 

Will you get a increased or decreased shock from a neutral due to a load being upstream on it? Or will there be no noticeable difference? 

The mechanics are simple. Complete the circuit with your body. Get shocked.


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## dreamer (Apr 17, 2011)

cfl,circumstances, complete the path.u say mwbc.were all the breakers off?N carries the unbalanced current ,this is why new code requires interlocks between hots.ex.2crkts.2pole brk.three crkts.3pole brk.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Nop they electrocuted him but he didnt die the current zapped him and was still kicking he was alive so they did it twice . funny but its the law once your done thats it but they zapped him twice .:thumbsup:



You are wrong again. Oh well no sense in beating a dead horse. Some people just can't grasp the most basic concepts. And unfortunately you are one of those people. Toodles......:thumbsup:


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

piperunner said:


> We hear people say you cant get electrocuted your dead that is also untrue .
> 
> Yes you can get it from the neutral !
> 
> ...


I was shot 9 times.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

dreamer said:


> cfl,circumstances, complete the path.u say mwbc.were all the breakers off?N carries the unbalanced current ,this is why new code requires interlocks between hots.ex.2crkts.2pole brk.three crkts.3pole brk.


 
What to protect stupid electricians?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

dreamer said:


> cfl,circumstances, complete the path.u say mwbc.were all the breakers off?N carries the unbalanced current ,this is why new code requires interlocks between hots.ex.2crkts.2pole brk.three crkts.3pole brk.


1 circuit off, 2 on. Only touched neutral in j box of recessed can and the box itself. In the j box you have 1 black wire, 1 gray wire, 1 green wire.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Foestauf said:


> I was shot 9 times.


I was murdered 9 times.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

steelersman said:


> You are wrong again. Oh well no sense in beating a dead horse. Some people just can't grasp the most basic concepts. And unfortunately you are one of those people. Toodles......:thumbsup:


Ok in your own words explain to me shock with current flow ?

Then electrocution with current flow ?

What is different between these in your best words iam all ears .

Come on no one else could iam willing to hear it from you with no comments from me .

:huh:


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## dreamer (Apr 17, 2011)

there you go,carring current from brk.#2:huh:,


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

From the department of opening a can of worms:
Three phase shock is worse than singe phase. 
The set up: common neutral, you are in series at a common connection point (A,B,C neutral in left had and common neutral going back to panel in right hand). Same load on each leg.
Someone throws breaker energizing "A" phase. now you are being shocked.
"B" is switched on, doubles the current passing threw you over time.
"C" is thrown, triple the threat.
Three phases means three shocks in nearly the same time frame as a single shock, effectively 180 hertz.
I am not stating that the total current is tripled, it is the duration of the current that is frying your but is trippled and the body will sustain more damage.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> What to protect stupid electricians?


Oops, I'm guilty of being a stupid electrician. I've only been shocked in parallel like I described one time and honestly did not expect it. I guess, since I'm too lazy to do the math, I'll just assume that there must have been a lot of impedance on that neutral and a lot less on the "grounding path".

I'm also ashamed to say that I've come in series with the neutral. That was not a surprise however.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

piperunner said:


> Ok in your own words explain to me shock with current flow ?
> 
> Then electrocution with current flow ?
> 
> ...


I will for him, but it's the last time. 

Shock with current flow, person lives.

Electrocution with current flow, person dies.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I think electricians are the only people that will debate shock vs. electrocution. And it cracks me up every time I hear it.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> I think some of this has been covered but.
> 
> Take a single 120 VAC incandescent bulb on a circuit on a circuit, lamp lights. Open/disconnect the neutral take your meter and measure the voltage at the bulb and you have 120 VAC. The bulb/ ballast, and most load all loads are simply a conductor in the circuit. Become part of this path and you are a conductor carrying voltage and current. How much. how bad, how shocked or killed (ELECTROCUTED). Depends on a lot of factors.
> 
> ...


Thanks Brian, that's the kind of response I was looking for. I was hoping someone would do the math for me and give a solution to a hypothetical situation. I know I'm being lazy, but that's usually why I'm on this site. There are a lot more intelligent people than me on here and I like to take advantage.

I guess I'll sit here and ponder.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

dreamer said:


> there you go,carring current from brk.#2:huh:,


Who is this addressed to and why the dumb face?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I think electricians are the only people that will debate shock vs. electrocution....


 Nah, I bet English teachers and editors would as well. :thumbsup:


CFL said:


> ...I was hoping someone would do the math for me and give a solution to a hypothetical situation....


 I did the math four pages ago! :huh:

-John


----------



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

piperunner said:


> Ok in your own words explain to me shock with current flow ?
> 
> Then electrocution with current flow ?
> 
> ...


Every definition I can find is the same: " Death caused by electric current passing through a body."
The operative word being death.

When someone is sentenced to die in the electric chair the death sentence reads, "...shall be placed in the electric chair and have electric current passed through the body until deceased."

When someone is accidently killed by electric shock the coroners report does not list it as an electrocution.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

:thumbsup:


CFL said:


> I will for him, but it's the last time.
> 
> Shock with current flow, person lives.
> 
> Electrocution with current flow, person dies.


 
DURN now that you put it like that it seems a REAL SIMPLE CONCEPT!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup::yes::thumbsup::yes:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> Nah, I bet English teachers and editors would as well. :thumbsup: I did the math four pages ago! :huh:
> 
> -John


 
And that link I provided has the math.

*1 *(touch open neutral) *+2* (Be grounded or in the circuit) *=3,* (Shock or DEATH, or as we call it electrocution)


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

From The IEEE Dictionary

*Electrocution-*The destruction of life by means of electric current.

*Shock*-What other's experience when someone does not understand basic terms and definitions.

I MADE THAT UP-------DUH!


From The IEEE Dictionary

*Shock- See Primary shock* (They learned from the NEC)
*Shock- See Secondary Shock*

*Primary Shock-* A shock of such a magnitudethat it may produce direct physiological harm.

*Secondary Electric Shock-* An electric shock not sufficently severe to cause direct physiological harm.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

I will for him, but it's the last time. 

Shock with current flow, person lives.

Electrocution with current flow, person dies.

So then when i touched my elbow on A phase and then with my other hand touch B phase by accident not using PPE because back in 1970s we didn't have PPE MR. CFL no one had it.[/q

I was shocked because i lived and current passed thur my chest but if i died it was call electrocution wow 
And you do not see that as a major difference and in some cases a benefit.

Gee that explains it i understand now glad you gave me your time to explain this so now i really know what happened.
As far as being unsafe over 40 plus years working in the field we all make mistakes it will happen just hope you don't have the ones i made .

We are now standing politically correct and were very glad its over with .


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Some folks are ignorant and can learn.
Others are stupid and can't (or won't)


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

steelersman said:


> But if you are the replacement path (connected in series through the neutral) then you are the only path and you are taking all of the current.


No, you won't take "all" of the current, because the load cannot draw its rated current through such a high resistance. The load resistance is small compared to your body, so almost all of the voltage will be dropped across your resistance. Which means the current flow will be in the mA range.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> No, you won't take "all" of the current, because the load cannot draw its rated current through such a high resistance. The load resistance is small compared to your body, so almost all of the voltage will be dropped across your resistance. Which means the current flow will be in the mA range.


 
But you are still taking all of it, might not be the calculated load at 120, but the amps are what the amps are with you there and thats all folks.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

brian john said:


> But you are still taking all of it, might not be the calculated load at 120, but the amps are what the amps are with you there and thats all folks.


Of course, but several of the responses indicated that some thought you would get "all" of the load current through you, which isn't the case, since the load can't function with the neutral open and a high resistance placed in-line.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Of course, but several of the responses indicated that some thought you would get "all" of the load current through you, which isn't the case, since the load can't function with the neutral open and a high resistance placed in-line.


 
I know, but I was being contentious

Contentious-exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes <a man of a most _contentious_ nature>


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

It's not that complicated.









If you touch that red wire, as far as shock is concerned, its the same as touching the hot. If it "shorts" to the ground, the current is limited by load rather than the power source. If it's on a GFCI it will trip. If it's not on GFCI, the bulb lights up and remains lit until fault is cleared.

A fully lit 100W light bulb is around 145 ohms, or around 10 ohms when its off.

Even if you assume your body is 1kOhm, if you touch that wire within the red circle say on a bulb end of a lamp cord that got damaged.

You've basically got 

1000/1010 of 120v allocated to your body, so for practical purpose, you can safely assume the same amount of current will flow through you as if you touched the hot directly.

I suppose neutral return path shock can be worse from the surprise factor since you go touch it with confidence that it is definitely not energized only to find it is.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> It's not that complicated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're talking about a series circuit, I'm talking about a parallel circuit.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> Nah, I bet English teachers and editors would as well. :thumbsup: I did the math four pages ago! :huh:
> 
> -John


You're taking it the wrong way. I meant the math with all the variables plugged in. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful, it was wishful thinking that's all. Like I said I'm being lazy.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> And that link I provided has the math.
> 
> *1 *(touch open neutral) *+2* (Be grounded or in the circuit) *=3,* (Shock or DEATH, or as we call it electrocution)


Yeah, and I appreciate that. You're the one who got me thinking about this in the first place. You made a post a while back in which you mentioned that a difference in potential will exist between neutral and ground on a properly installed circuit doue to the voltage drop inn the circuit. The other day when I was talking to a maintenance guy we got to talking about shock. I was telling him that you can recieve a shock by touching an "unopened" neutral and ground. He said impossible because there is no potential between them. I found myself explaining to him that a difference in potential does exist for the very reasons you stated. Then I realised that I couldn't fully explain it because those weren't my words, I was just repeating what I had read. I had to go home and search to find out where I got that and it was your post. 

I have plenty of books to turn to, to find out how to apply ohm's law, but no real world example like what I described. For some reason I had this thought in my head that the electronic ballasts, along with the voltage being 277v, set up a unique circumstance that would create a bigger shock than a resistive load at say 120v.

You guys have steered me back in the right direction and I appreciate that.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

CFL said:


> ...I meant the math with all the variables plugged in....


I'll give it a try:

There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.

Voltage Drop = (Resistivity • Length • Current) ÷ Circular Mils
VD = (12.9 • 90 • 12) ÷ 4110
VD = (13932) ÷ 4110
VD = 3.39 volts between the neutral bond at the receptacle box and the panel where the neutral bar is grounded.

A person is standing barefoot on the concrete floor in a basement. The grounding electrode conductor goes into that floor. The resistance of the person from hand to foot is 1,500 ohms and we'll call the ground resistance 50 ohms. Total resistance of the parallel path back to the panel is 1550 ohms.

The person touches the receptacle box
I = V ÷ R
I = 3.39 ÷ 1550
I = 0.0022 or 2.2 milliamps flowing through the person

The threshold of sensation is between 0.5 and 1 milliamp, so someone would definitely feel that. And if they were sweaty, or like one instance I saw where a woman's hands were wet, the body resistance would go down so the current flow would go up.

-John


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Big John said:


> I'll give it a try:
> 
> There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.
> 
> ...


Where were her hands?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I'll give it a try:
> 
> There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.
> 
> ...


 That's what I'm talking about!


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Big John said:


> I'll give it a try:
> 
> There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.
> 
> ...


The circuit length is 180' because it has two wires.


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## noname (Mar 20, 2011)

New on the job - I showed up to a large retail remodel. My first task was replacing lighting control panels. The LCP was next to it's associated breaker panel. After turning off the panels main breaker, I disconnected all the hots, then the neutrals. I noticed arcing on the neutrals. Took out my meter and read varying voltages (neutral to ground), 0v up to 250v. I notified the foreman on the job. At that point they informed me an employee had started the same task and claimed to have been shocked (injured/out on disability). They didn't believe him because they had not measured anything over 30v at the panel. They figured he was being a big p***y. Therefore, they didn't even bother to warn me. I found the same situation at other locations in the store. 
 I figure the troffers that ran the length of the store wich were fed with different systems/panels had neutrals crossed.

In this case, Ohm's law applied ;

(Impedance of employee/ (impedance of employee + impedance of connected load) X ~277v) / impedance of employee = current flow through employee. 
It's preferred to have this value less than 100mA :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

noname said:


> .
> 
> It's preferred to have this value less than 100mA :thumbsup:


Only two ways to get that. GFCI or do as you did WORK SAFE. Because crossed neutrals happen all the time, especially after the 3rd remodel.


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## MonkeySeeMonkeyDo (Apr 1, 2017)

[Q UOTE=Big John;434662]


CFL said:


> ...I meant the math with all the variables plugged in....


I'll give it a try:

There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.

Voltage Drop = (Resistivity ? Length ? Current) ÷ Circular Mils
VD = (12.9 ? 90 ? 12) ÷ 4110
VD = (13932) ÷ 4110
VD = 3.39 volts between the neutral bond at the receptacle box and the panel where the neutral bar is grounded.

A person is standing barefoot on the concrete floor in a basement. The grounding electrode conductor goes into that floor. The resistance of the person from hand to foot is 1,500 ohms and we'll call the ground resistance 50 ohms. Total resistance of the parallel path back to the panel is 1550 ohms.

The person touches the receptacle box
I = V ÷ R
I = 3.39 ÷ 1550
I = 0.0022 or 2.2 milliamps flowing through the person

The threshold of sensation is between 0.5 and 1 milliamp, so someone would definitely feel that. And if they were sweaty, or like one instance I saw where a woman's hands were wet, the body resistance would go down so the current flow would go up.

-John[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the post, very informative but i have one question on your math John. Please help clear my confusion. When calculating the current on the neutral why are you calculating just the voltage drop and not subtracting the original voltage. ex. 120v -3.39vd

Why isnt the formula this:
I = V ÷ R
I = (V-VD) or (116.61÷ 1550)
I = 0.075 

Thanks for your help.


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

MonkeySeeMonkeyDo said:


> [Q UOTE=Big John;434662]I'll give it a try:
> 
> There's a receptacle neutral tied to the equipment ground at the end of a 90' run of 14/2. There's an air conditioner plugged in drawing 12 amps.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post, very informative but i have one question on your math John. Please help clear my confusion. When calculating the current on the neutral why are you calculating just the voltage drop and not subtracting the original voltage. ex. 120v -3.39vd

Why isnt the formula this:
I = V ÷ R
I = (V-VD) or (116.61÷ 1550)
I = 0.075 

Thanks for your help.[/QUOTE]

The reason is that the V in V=IR is the voltage difference between the two ends of the resistor.
The body part touching the neutral is at 3.39V and the other body part is at ground. The voltage across the body is 3.39V


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## MonkeySeeMonkeyDo (Apr 1, 2017)

But the circuit for example is a 120v circuit. The length of the run is just the voltage drop so shouldnt 116 v still be going throuhh the neutral? 
http://m.ecmweb.com/code-basics/characteristics-neutral-conductor
"When sizing the load for a 2-wire circuit, the grounded neutral conductor carries the same amount of current as the ungrounded phase conductor. This type of installation has no unbalanced load; therefore, the neutral conductor carries full current."


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

This one almost went 6 years from the last posts.... How does one find the dinosaurs of this forum and decide "I'll reply to this one"?? :001_huh: lol...


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## MonkeySeeMonkeyDo (Apr 1, 2017)

LoL right. I saw that but i was left hanging at the end and i noticed John was online. Just glad i haven't been waiting 6 years for the sequal to start up. LoL. I hope someone could clear the explation up in lameman terms. Because i just dont get how th voltage on the neutral would change from 120v to 3v.... Ive been hit with 277 plenty of times and shook it off. Then got hit one time and got cooked so i figured i caught a neutral with all the return current on it. So i live off the theory dont get caught on the return path.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

For the folks who remember CRTs in the old TVs they were supplied 20KV, with very little current.
I've been shocked many times working on them. Sure beats a cup of coffee to wake up!

So that's why GFCIs work on current


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