# Emt vs mc



## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

I think im about to do a little lease space remodel. About 10 offices. No specs yet I thinks is just for renting purposes. Probably 4 lights and 4 outlets per office..thinking of a1/2 backbone down the center of the office ceiling. 2 offices 2 circuts .lights w lights plugs w plugs. Thats 5 1/2 runs from the panel. All offices in mc fed from 1/2 in ceiling. Should this be done another way to cut cost. I like emt for hr s 

learning to learn


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

MC is faster.....


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

3/4 EMT trunk not 1/2. Taking 1/2" anything out of a panel is grade A hack. I've done a bunch of offices like that, EMT in the ceiling and mc in the walls. I like to pipe to the first outlet though, that way at least you have a little flexibility in case they add something like a 208v copy machine or whatnot


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> 3/4 EMT trunk not 1/2. Taking 1/2" anything out of a panel is grade A hack. I've done a bunch of offices like that, EMT in the ceiling and mc in the walls. I like to pipe to the first outlet though, that way at least you have a little flexibility in case they add something like a 208v copy machine or whatnot


EMT is cheap, I would go at least 3/4", 1" would be better.
drop one out above the panel, another half way and another in the front.
The place should be set for life like that.
And Use 4-11/16 boxes. nipple over to a second box a few inches away for your MC drops as not to crowd the home run.

It would be nice to work behind someone that set it up like that.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hard piped home runs and mc branches are the ticket! I worked for an EC who ran every circuit all the way back to the panel in MC. What a mess. I bet the time it took to run all those and then land all the extra grounds lost his imaginary cost savings and then some.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Agreed. Pipe in the ceiling and flexible drops. Depending on the lighting, you might not need ten circuits.

This job sounds like it could be an easy hit and run.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks. I didnt wanna run more than 3 circuts per conduit. Staying away from derating

learning to learn


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MC all the way. Pipe is a waste of time.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Most of the offices I've seen in new construction and/or remodels have an EMT home run to a j-box in the ceiling, and then the lighting and receptacles are tapped out of there with MC cable. If something needs to be added in the future, then it's easy to do with either an existing circuit or a new HR if necessary.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Are you bidding this job against other electricians? If so, bid *Everything in MC*. Dont listen to any of these guys who talk about home runs in pipe, or MC only on the walls. :no:. EVERYTHING IN MC. :thumbsup:

Now, if you feel like you've got this job in the bag, or that you're not competing against anyone....do it however you like. . But if there is any hint of competition, dont even think about pipe. If you are fast with MC, you can bid it with a higher profit margin with a more costly product (MC), and still beat a company that bids it with pipe-n-wire.

Seriously. I beat out 3 other companies a while back in a thrift store remodel, who were all wanting to run EMT. They all had it bid as a 2-3 day job. Everything exposed, no open walls. I charged more in labor & materials, but bid it for 1 day and all exposed MC instead. Beat the closest pipe guy by $500, and made as much as he would have in half the time.

Once again, this is only to be competitive. If your not up against anybody, bid it however you want to do it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

butcher733 said:


> Hard piped home runs and mc branches are the ticket! I worked for an EC who ran every circuit all the way back to the panel in MC. What a mess. I bet the time it took to run all those and then land all the extra grounds lost his imaginary cost savings and then some.



All them mc grounds have to be ''landed'' somewhere , in the emt homerun box or at the panel if mc runs to the panel, so where is the labor savings you refer to?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I think some people posting here don't know how to hang pipe. Sure, if you're a one man show, feeding and pulling wire at the same time can be a PITA. Other than that, for easy, relatively straight runs, pipe wins almost always.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

99cents said:


> I think some people posting here don't know how to hang pipe. Sure, if you're a one man show, feeding and pulling wire at the same time can be a PITA. Other than that, for easy, relatively straight runs, pipe wins almost always.



Total agreement. But actually only for the silver medal. Romex wins the gold every time if it is allowed to compete in the contest....


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> I think some people posting here don't know how to hang pipe. Sure, if you're a one man show, feeding and pulling wire at the same time can be a PITA. Other than that, for easy, relatively straight runs, pipe wins almost always.


Feeding and pulling wire *is* a pain by yourself, _BUT,_ my post is more aimed at cutting your competition at the knees and knocking over jobs fast and furious.

Most one man shows have a few tricks for pulling wire alone. Usually its stranded wire, LOTS of lube, over sizing pipe, pulleys & weights, or that raised roller-cover that HD sells thumbsup. But all that is time consuming, and time is money. The point here is to take the job at a higher labor & material cost, and still come in under a competitors price, at a faster pace. Not to compete with price, but to compete with a different installation method. 

Ive worked next to guys that could absolutely sling pipe like the building was on fire...but they cant do it quicker than someone pulling MC. They just cant! I don't care what anybody on this forum says. 

In the words of Chris1971 - "Get in, get out, get paid." That's how you do it as a small contractor. When its you against the world, you need to even the playing field a little and put things in your favor.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Wow, I just got told.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Wow, I just got told.


OR......you just got my opinion.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I just did an EMT job. 80 feet of 1". I threw the material at my labour units and came up with 28.2 hours after all the bits and pieces were installed. It took me a little longer. 

I didn't have any competition or specs other than a sub panel but I did have a budget.

I'm pretty sure the job could have been done in a day or a long day had I run a piece of what would have been crappy looking teck.

EMT for sure will take longer. Connectors, couplings, straps, offsets, etc. Then pull the wire.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> All them mc grounds have to be ''landed'' somewhere , in the emt homerun box or at the panel if mc runs to the panel, so where is the labor savings you refer to?


A big gray or big blue wirenut vs. landing each one on a bus.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Still waiting on someone to come on here and say the MC is the ruin of trade and design to take work out the hands of trained professionals. :whistling2:

Guess I dont have to wait any longer... I just did. :blink:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

AllWIRES said:


> Still waiting on someone to come on here and say the MC is the ruin of trade and design to take work out the hands of trained professionals. :whistling2: Guess I dont have to wait any longer... I just did. :blink:


It's a well known fact.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

zen said:


> Thanks. I didnt wanna run more than 3 circuts per conduit. Staying away from derating
> 
> learning to learn


it wont really matter much if you get into six conductors just due to the derating calculation starting at the 90 degree column


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

MHElectric said:


> Are you bidding this job against other electricians? If so, bid Everything in MC. Dont listen to any of these guys who talk about home runs in pipe, or MC only on the walls. :no:. EVERYTHING IN MC. :thumbsup: Now, if you feel like you've got this job in the bag, or that you're not competing against anyone....do it however you like. . But if there is any hint of competition, dont even think about pipe. If you are fast with MC, you can bid it with a higher profit margin with a more costly product (MC), and still beat a company that bids it with pipe-n-wire. Seriously. I beat out 3 other companies a while back in a thrift store remodel, who were all wanting to run EMT. They all had it bid as a 2-3 day job. Everything exposed, no open walls. I charged more in labor & materials, but bid it for 1 day and all exposed MC instead.Beat the closest pipe guy by $500, and made as much as he would have in half the time. Once again, this is only to be competitive. If your not up against anybody, bid it however you want to do it.


You lost me at "all exposed MC", yuck!


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## minichopper6hp (Apr 19, 2014)

Mc costs less by the time you account for pipe and wire alone. Anything hidden like that I ceilings/walls are mc for us. Just makes sense.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

daveEM said:


> I just did an EMT job. 80 feet of 1". I threw the material at my labour units and came up with 28.2 hours after all the bits and pieces were installed. It took me a little longer. ...


That sounds really high for EMT...I labor rigid in a labor intensive industrial plant at less than that.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

We already have the job. My boss seldom on these small jobs gives a method. He shows the drawings and tells us when we need to call for insp.by. the only time he will call and change ur method is when it wont get the inspection on time. Ive done enough of these to know what has to be done. Now id like to work on underbudget yet a balance of quality as well. 3/4 conduits for hr s and mc in walls thatll be demoed with next tenant comes sounds like a good balance. Itll make demo easy and build back easier. I just need to make running the emt worth it

learning to learn


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That sounds really high for EMT...I labor rigid in a labor intensive industrial plant at less than that.


Well the actual labor unit I used for the EMT is... 

.04 per foot or 3.2 hours to install the 80 feet of conduit.

There is a main panel, a j-box (6x6x4) and a sub panel so we have 4 connectors. They are at .32/hr each or 1.28 hours. The actual job they consisted of two offsets, 2 90 degree bends and 2 kicks (to make the job look pro).

Then there is the couplings (.08 each), the straps (.03 each) drilling in the anchors to the concrete ceiling and driving the screws.

In all the job consisted of *31 items*, all with a cost and a labor unit. For example there were 30 1-1/4 x #10 wood screws driven. This ain't free so at .03/hr each they work out to .90 of an hour.

28.2 hours.

Being of age I think I have 32 posted to the job... although I often conveniently forget stuff if I want to.

You can't be in a hurry and hire me. I've been there and done that. 

The labour units I use are from an estimating course I took in 1975. I realize things change but I still install the old way so they work for me. I just can't keep up to them any more.

*EDIT:*

Just a little education from an old guy. 

These labor units have a lot built in. Especially for a small job. You have to pick this stuff up, maybe a couple of wholesale's (true in this case). You then have to deliver it., pack it down a ramp and then +200 feet into the parking area. 

Have coffee.

The backboard for the sub panel requires painting, toggle bolts to mount it, then the panel. Stuff like that. A couple of block walls to drill through.

I'm not tossing 80 feet of conduit into a slab.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

^^ Should be 4 90 degree bends (thus the j-box). 

Plus 4 pieces of uni-strut where I had to drop down at each end to clear existing conduit. You are cutting 4 6" pieces of strut, drilling mounting holes, mounting the strut to the concrete ceiling, etc.

Then 5 feet of 3/4 up to an existing j-box to get some circuits to the existing receptacles.

All part of the job.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

zen said:


> I think im about to do a little lease space remodel. About 10 offices. No specs yet I thinks is just for renting purposes. Probably 4 lights and 4 outlets per office..thinking of a1/2 backbone down the center of the office ceiling. 2 offices 2 circuts .lights w lights plugs w plugs. Thats 5 1/2 runs from the panel. All offices in mc fed from 1/2 in ceiling. Should this be done another way to cut cost. I like emt for hr s learning to learn


10 offices with 2 lights and 4 receptacles each? In my world that's 3- 12/4 mc cables (assuming it is 3ph) pulled from the panel to 4-11/16 boxes in 3 strategic locations above the ceiling. 5 receptacle circuits, 2 lighting circuits and 2 spare for copiers, coffee makers etc. No pipe.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

What a mess. Its 120/240 single phase. Has existing 4/0 light boxes in each room still in a plaster ceiling that someone put extension rings on and refed all kinds of crap in another drop tile ceiling a ft lower. Now that ceiling is getting tore out as well as rooms reframed. Ive already found about 4 2×4 lights 2 sp switches and 2 quads fed with thwn no pipe no flex nothin just the wire in the wall. Personally id like to disconnect and abandone as many circuts as I can and run new feeder pipe and mc. Just barely finished demo.. looks like a master hack wired this space.

learning to learn


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## bnuzzi27 (Jun 20, 2014)

Id use mc. I would think it is more cost efficient and also a lot faster.


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