# Stabbing receptacles



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I've pulled out so many 30 year old receptacles with bad stabs in them that I would never consider installing one that way myself.

I don't care if they've "improved" the connection method in there at all since then, it still feels like a bad idea to me.

You don't usually get call backs on bad stabs within the first year or three. It takes a while.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I stab them if the boss wants me to.

After doing dozens of them like that, my opinion against stabbing has waned.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I think my 2010 tally for replacing bad back-stabbed recepts was around 27.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I think my 2010 tally for replacing bad back-stabbed recepts was around 27.


The majority of mine for 2010 were the old receptacles that didn't even have side screws. Somebody apparently thought that was the best idea ever, at some point.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I used those stabby quick-connects on a flourescent 2x4 office fixture, and I did a whole bunch of them, only to find out that one of the stabbys must not have been done right. So now I cut em and twist em.

Not to mention that if you ever have to redo stuff that has a 1time stabby catcher, your conductor gets shorter and shorter.

Sometimes even stabbys in tombstones are shady if you ask me.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

i would have to wonder if that was because they were stabbed or if the internals of the plug had just plain wore out?. I have replaced alot of switches that were terminated at the screw that were wore out internally. Im not suggesting that these dont produce callbacks or loose connections but I just dont seem to see them very often. stabbing a plug works on the same premise as a breaker,(except boltins). but we install these everyday with no arguments at all.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Kaboler... i could not agree MORE
i have had the same thing happen with 2x4s. But with residential work,competitive bidding,(knowing the competition is stabbing everything), basically bidding against a handy man,I will not let my competitors set the bar for my quality. HOWEVER i just have not had any problems with this. i would not do this in commercial application only because most of these jobs have less bidders and usually have a higher profit margin


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Back stabbing receptacles is the only way to go on low bid word. You're already cutting your throat by bidding super low. And now you want to sidewire? Are you crazy?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> i would have to wonder if that was because they were stabbed or if the internals of the plug had just plain wore out?. I have replaced alot of switches that were terminated at the screw that were wore out internally. Im not suggesting that these dont produce callbacks or loose connections but I just dont seem to see them very often. stabbing a plug works on the same premise as a breaker,(except boltins). but we install these everyday with no arguments at all.












The stab-in-to-the-bus breakers have a beefier connection. Of course, I'm sure we've all seen those go bad too. They have their issues.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

but you do bring a good point to the fray.... what about tombstones.these are stabbed and i have replaced a good many of these over the years from wear out.
hmmmmmm


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> but you do bring a good point to the fray.... what about tombstones.these are stabbed and i have replaced a good many of these over the years from wear out.
> hmmmmmm


It's a bad design too in my opinion. But the goal is cheap and I've never seen a tombstone with screw connections.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I see the difference,but i dont see a better or worse connection, one is held with a 30 or so degree opposing angle and the other with 10/32 threads (brass at that). only on thread has to strip to make it loose.. By the way, on my end i only do track houses in 14 guage wire and that counts for about 5% of my business overall. basically everything i do is 12 guage (which you cant stab anyway). But i was wondering what everybody had against this.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I actually have but they are aftermarket tombstones and take a nut that screws to a stud


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> Kaboler... i could not agree MORE
> i have had the same thing happen with 2x4s. But with residential work,competitive bidding,(knowing the competition is stabbing everything), basically bidding against a handy man,I will not let my competitors set the bar for my quality. HOWEVER i just have not had any problems with this. i would not do this in commercial application only because most of these jobs have less bidders and usually have a higher profit margin


Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote because frankly my eyes are all confused with referring to the ballast disconnects as "stabby things" but ballast disconnects ARE NOT required in residential applications. 

Connecting wires to a device via terminal loops is not that much more time consuming. I can device out a room probably just as fast using terminal loops than someone can do by backstabbing.

There are other places to save money, let's not do it in the quality of our connections.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote because frankly my eyes are all confused with referring to the ballast disconnects as "stabby things" but ballast disconnects ARE NOT required in residential applications.
> 
> Connecting wires to a device via terminal loops is not that much more time consuming. I can device out a room probably just as fast using terminal loops than someone can do by backstabbing.
> 
> There are other places to save money, let's not do it in the quality of our connections.


That a good reason to cut them off and bring them to city hall walk into the Electrical inspectors office and throw them in the rubbish next to his desk......:thumbup::blink::thumbup::laughing:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

i think you did misread. a tombstone is the end of a flourescent fixture where the tube ends attach... usually a stab in connection (from the ballast not the power supply). No ballast or ballast disconnect required or even mentioned, not trying to save money or sacrafice quality but just wondering what everybody had against stabbing plugs, thats all.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Don't know if they could fail inspections on any of these things, because they are UL and CSA and all that.

Some 4gang stabbies (clear ones) that are meant to tie 4 conductors together, you can see they're just thin pieces of copper. I'm pretty sure inspectors aren't particular on them, but hey, UL. CSA. What can they do?

I've never used one, but someday, when I do another crappy motor with no room to do connections, I'm breaking them out!!!!!!


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> i think you did misread. a tombstone is the end of a flourescent fixture where the tube ends attach... usually a stab in connection (from the ballast not the power supply). No ballast or ballast disconnect required or even mentioned, not trying to save money or sacrafice quality but just wondering what everybody had against stabbing plugs, thats all.


Oh, I meant that the ballast has quick connects that are stabbies, as well as tombstones being shady.

But your point, I'm against stabbing plugs because:

If you need to replace it, you have to cut them and your conductors get shorter.

If you have to cut them to do something, you can't really reuse the receptacle. If you try, you have all these cut connectors sticking out the back of the receptacle.

Or, do they make them now so you can easily pull the wire out? Maybe I just consider the screws more handy when doing service work.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

after reviewing, what he called "stabby thingys" were Quick connects not disconnects


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

kaboler. i agree with you on the short motor wires. get the crimp tool!!!


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

have they made yall move to 2011 code yet??


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

rnr electric said:


> i think you did misread... No ballast or ballast disconnect required or even mentioned, not trying to save money or sacrafice quality but just wondering what everybody had against stabbing plugs, thats all.





kaboler said:


> Oh, I meant that the ballast has quick connects that are stabbies, as well as tombstones being shady.


No, Kaboler mentioned them and then you said that you've experienced an issue in 2 x 4's.

So they were mentioned and he owned up to it, so I'm off the hook. :thumbup:

As far as the "stabby things" confusion over Disconnects/Quick Connects, I don't want to sound like an a$$ here but we're on a *professional* forum for Electricians. I understand products have trade names in the field and we don't always use same ones but "stabby things" is a little hack in my opinion and rather confusing because it applies to more than one type of device. If I don't know what the term for something is, I do my best to find it out. 

If someone asks me for a Madison strap or a Gembox strap or Two Men in a Boat, I'm going to know that they're looking for what I call an E-strap. If somebody asked me for a "stabby thing" in the field, they're about to get shanked with my scratch awl...


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Sorry! I don't use em! If I had to tell someone what I needed out of my van, I'd say, "I need one of those clear 4-hole stabbies, you know? Residential guys use them instead of marettes."

But we're talking about plugs here mostly. Can you remove the wire from the back of these plugs, once they're stabbed in? I can't remember. But I think no.


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Use too. Not anymore. Done enough servicing of plugs (not related to the quick connects) that it's aggravating come across quick connects in boxes with short wires as it is.

With that said, we pig tailed all of our outlet circuits so a outlet could be removed without disrupting the rest of the circuit. Along with that, and a 6-8" pig tail, even our quick connected outlets would have been easy enough service.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

kaboler said:


> Can you remove the wire from the back of these plugs, once they're stabbed in? I can't remember. But I think no.


Most of the time I can get the wire out without cutting it. Sometimes all it takes is pulling on it while twisting the outlet back and forth. Or you can take a small tech screwdriver small enough to fit into the little hole and it is supposed to release the "springy" thing and you can pull the wire out while still applying pressure into the hole with the tiny, miniscule screwdriver.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Most of the time I can get the wire out without cutting it. Sometimes all it takes is pulling on it while twisting the outlet back and forth. Or you can take a small tech screwdriver small enough to fit into the little hole and it is supposed to release the "springy" thing and you can pull the wire out while still applying pressure into the hole with the tiny, miniscule screwdriver.


Once you do that.. NEVER back stab a wire into that hole again.. :no:

The spring tension that holds the wire in place has now been altered..


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Isn't that like pointing out the sky is blue? :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jcode said:


> Isn't that like pointing out the sky is blue? :laughing:


The whole idea of this forum is to educate anyone willing to listen.. 

What might be obvious to you might be useful information to the next guy reading posts on this thread..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jcode said:


> Isn't that like pointing out the sky is blue? :laughing:


 No., It is black with little white spots:whistling2::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> "I need one of those clear 4-hole stabbies, you know? Residential guys use them instead of marettes."


WAGO's??


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## nice try (Apr 5, 2011)

Wagos are awesome.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

This topic is so played out.

The guys who don't back-stab, are the same guys who pre-twist, and so on.

This reminds me of the time a plumber on the job asked me for help, so I stopped by his house. He had redone his kitchen, and every single recept was a GFCI. Then we went down into his basement, and every single recpt was a single hit from a 4S jbox. WTH? I'll bet those big-blue wirenuts of his were pre-twisted.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

When I pig-tail, it's from a pre-twisted, soldered, wirebundle wrapped in glass tape.


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## nice try (Apr 5, 2011)

miller_elex said:


> This topic is so played out.
> 
> The guys who don't back-stab, are the same guys who pre-twist, and so on.
> 
> This reminds me of the time a plumber on the job asked me for help, so I stopped by his house. He had redone his kitchen, and every single recept was a GFCI. Then we went down into his basement, and every single recpt was a single hit from a 4S jbox. WTH? I'll bet those big-blue wirenuts of his were pre-twisted.


I personally don't like to pre twist. I find that the wire nut does a great job without any additional help.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

nice try said:


> I personally don't like to pre twist. I find that the wire nut does a great job without any additional help.












This thread is Horses.


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

Anyone notice the Ideal photos all have pre-twisted wires in their wirenut section in the catalog.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Edrick said:


> Anyone notice the Ideal photos all have pre-twisted wires in their wirenut section in the catalog.


Advertising copy is often far from accurate.


Are you still stuck in the damn tunnel?


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

Nah figured I'd go up 95 today instead and work at another clients. No shoddy built tunnels for us today. :thumbsup:


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

B4T said:


> The whole idea of this forum is to educate anyone willing to listen..
> 
> What might be obvious to you might be useful information to the next guy reading posts on this thread..


Yea thats true. I've heard of stupider things being done :jester:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I'll stab on cheap low end jobs, it's safe, and minimum code and saves time. On the higher paying jobs we use screw connections, loops and/or pigtailing . It's all about the dollars, what they spend dictates what they'll get. If i'm doing $30 points, vs $50 points. I'm working in a high end house currently where even the 12 wire in the kitchen was stabbed by the builders EC, local 25 Newbridge electr.. I personally prefer continuos loop.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

you physically cant stab #12 in todays receptacles. 25 years ago or so you used to be able to so you must be badmouthing someones work which was code compliant back when they installed it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

steelersman said:


> you physically cant stab #12 in todays receptacles. 25 years ago or so you used to be able to so you must be badmouthing someones work which was code compliant back when they installed it.


Up until around 95' 12 wire stabbing was permitted, I've done it myself. It's just strange for a union shop to methodically backstab, the union is the originators of pigtailing outlets.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Up until around 95' 12 wire stabbing was permitted, I've done it myself. It's just strange for a union shop to methodically backstab, the union is the originators of pigtailing outlets.


I don't know about originators, but they probably popularized the idea.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Up until around 95' 12 wire stabbing was permitted, I've done it myself. It's just strange for a union shop to methodically backstab, the union is the originators of pigtailing outlets.



I think it's strange for a union contractor to be in a house at all IMO.....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

It would be assumed that UL would have thoroughly investigated the "back-stabbing". Is there a possibility that some guys, when tugging on the wire to see if it would not come out... actually bend the tab and cause a loose connection?


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Look at the picture of one, I don't see how you'd bend the tab by pulling on it. Atleast not by hand. I've tried many times prying one out with my linemans and suckers just don't budge 70% of the time. I've actually broke the outlet on occasion trying this. I'm not talking straight pulling, I mean grabbing the wire tight to the outlet, then rotating trying to use the pliers for leverage.

Before anyone jumps down my throat about this, they were oulets being removed and replaced. Was trying to save any wire I could as they were short as it was.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

steelersman said:


> I think it's strange for a union contractor to be in a house at all IMO.....


They've been out here since the 50's I've seen alot of their work from the 60's and early seventies, some of the best designed circuitry , layout and workmanship i have ever seen. The latest work i have seen from them is a far cry from what they used to be.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jcode said:


> Look at the picture of one, I don't see how you'd bend the tab by pulling on it. Atleast not by hand. I've tried many times prying one out with my linemans and suckers just don't budge 70% of the time. I've actually broke the outlet on occasion trying this. I'm not talking straight pulling, I mean grabbing the wire tight to the outlet, then rotating trying to use the pliers for leverage.
> 
> Before anyone jumps down my throat about this, they were oulets being removed and replaced. Was trying to save any wire I could as they were short as it was.


I can see that if you would pull on a back stabbed receptacle too hardly that you could bend the portion that comes in contact with the soft copper and it will stay but have a looser than optimum connection and arc in the future.


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## Jcode (Mar 24, 2011)

Suppose it could. Just seems like the angle wasn't enough to let it fold back over on itself before it would just let go of the wire. Never seen what it looked like inside of one after I butchered it.


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## sparkey1305 (Mar 27, 2011)

I don't put in stab in the back recepts. I do like the amount of business I get fixing loose stab in the backs.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

sparkey1305 said:


> I don't put in stab in the back recepts. I do like the amount of business I get fixing loose stab in the backs.


I gotta say, I've fixed only a few that came loose from a stab in connection, but many more that were loose under the screw and melted the receptacle from the arc condition when homeowner plugs in an electric skillet downstream or space heater.


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