# Yeah, go ahead and backfeed your dryer outlet....



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

People have no problem rigging up a generator to their house. It's so easy. But if they damage the wall in the process they'll have to call in drywaller.:no:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Peter D said:


> ..But don't expect your power to be restored. Just got word from someone that National Grid has detected backfeeds in outage areas, and is refusing to restore service as a result until they figure out where they are coming from.
> 
> I was just in the supply house a few hours ago and from what I overheard the stuff that people are cobbling together is just downright scary.


and what's worse is these people probably have no idea what they did is wrong and/or the hack that did the work is long gone and could care less.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

Peter D said:


> ..But don't expect your power to be restored. Just got word from someone that National Grid has detected backfeeds in outage areas, and is refusing to restore service as a result until they figure out where they are coming from.
> 
> I was just in the supply house a few hours ago and from what I overheard the stuff that people are cobbling together is just downright scary.


 
the dumb A could have shut off the main.....................


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

You expect them to wait for an electrician when phone services are out while they have a genny sitting in the garage. It's survival, if thier stupid enough to leave their main breaker on and feed into the system , I would imagine the load from what out there would instantly trip the breaker on their generator.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

People are pissed off and in survival mode.. power has been out since Sat. night and they will do anything to get the lights back on..

The back feeding the dryer outlet has been around since dryers became electric and I bet the first person to rig it like that was an electrician..

Maybe one of us.. :whistling2::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

B4T said:


> People are pissed off and in survival mode.. power has been out since Sat. night and they will do anything to get the lights back on..
> 
> The back feeding the dryer outlet has been around since dryers became electric and I bet the first person to rig it like that was an electrician..
> 
> Maybe one of us.. :whistling2::laughing:


I know of a couple electricians who were running that way. I have only seen LIPA refuse to energize customers that have serious service issues such as disconnected neutrals, broken meter pans, unsecured services and missing eyebolts.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I know of a couple electricians who were running that way. I have only seen LIPA refuse to energize customers that have serious service issues such as disconnected neutrals, broken meter pans, unsecured services and missing eyebolts.


LIPA guys are cool and not like them candy ass lineman north of us.. our guys get the job done.. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I was in hole depot this afternoon and overheard the employee telling somebody to do this. I caught the guy in the parking lot and told him that kind of cord was called a widow maker...I met [email protected] his house and got two permanent generator installs out of the deal. One for him and one for his neighbor.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

B4T said:


> LIPA guys are cool and not like them candy ass lineman north of us.. our guys get the job done.. :thumbsup:


Wow. I guess it's true that you really do have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. 

I challenge you to come up here to "the country" and find out just how candy ass our lineman are. I GUARANTEE you you go back home with a whooped ass. :thumbsup:
Drive around the devastation we are experiencing right now and see if you feel the same way. Our trees are way bigger and we have way more of them. 

I'd say linemen period are a pretty tough bunch, regardless of location.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Wow. I guess it's true that you really do have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I challenge you to come up here to "the country" and find out just how candy ass our lineman are. I GUARANTEE you you go back home with a whooped ass. :thumbsup:
> Drive around the devastation we are experiencing right now and see if you feel the same way. Our trees are way bigger and we have way more of them.
> ...


Lighten up Speedy.. it was a joke.. :no:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

B4T said:


> Lighten up Speedy.. it was a joke.. :no:


Well sorry, all I saw was this :thumbsup:, and no :laughing:. 
I guess I am too literal.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Do you still want to come up and get whopped by a lineman?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Line crews 'round here have been known to disco the house from the grid if they suspect there's no proper transfer switch when they find a genny running.

No power, even when the neighbors are up and running. So the HO calls in, and they get told to hire a licensed electrician to pull a permit for a transfer switch install.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Do you still want to come up and get whopped by a lineman?


I watched those guys on "Tougher in Alaska".. setting poles by hand after digging 5' deep holes through frozen ground with clam shell shovels..

You are no where near that extreme.. but much colder than LI


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> ...I would imagine the load from what out there would instantly trip the breaker on their generator.


 Funny you should say that, because while that seems like the "common sense" answer, often it doesn't happen like that. Not sure if it's the arrangement of cutouts or what, but a backfeed can definitely run the risk of energizing a primary.

-John


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> ..But don't expect your power to be restored. Just got word from someone that National Grid has detected backfeeds in outage areas, and is refusing to restore service as a result until they figure out where they are coming from.
> 
> I was just in the supply house a few hours ago and from what I overheard the stuff that people are cobbling together is just downright scary.


And here I just spoke with a potential client from an upscale neighborhood that had enquired about a whole house generator with ATS. Cha-ching! 

What a bunch of jerks back feeding from a genny. How stupid can man be? 

Don't think any professional here is surprised one bit! :no:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I was in hole depot this afternoon and overheard the employee telling somebody to do this. I caught the guy in the parking lot and told him that kind of cord was called a widow maker...I met [email protected] his house and got two permanent generator installs out of the deal. One for him and one for his neighbor.



I am working on 6 proposals for generator installs ..... and have 2 more that emailed Sunday that I am going looking at Friday. I love storm season...:thumbsup:


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Well sorry, all I saw was this :thumbsup:, and no :laughing:.
> I guess I am too literal.


We need a sarcasm smiley.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I heard it was safety mandated from the power company that they check for voltage,apply grounds and proceed with repairs....


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> I heard it was safety mandated from the power company that they check for voltage,apply grounds and proceed with repairs....


 That's SOP for any line crew, but they're darn sure not gonna apply grounds to an energized line, even if it's "only" backfed by a little 5kW genny.

-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I am working on 6 proposals for generator installs ..... and have 2 more that emailed Sunday that I am going looking at Friday. I love storm season...:thumbsup:


What brand are you selling??


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

tkb said:


> We need a sarcasm smiley.


I know, right? This is about as close as we get:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The wife was telling me about her co worker mentioning an interest in a generator. She lives in a condo and one of the neighbors was running one in the basement, but apparently its well ventilated. Nice...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Don't your linemen have volt pens?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I am working on 6 proposals for generator installs ..... and have 2 more that emailed Sunday that I am going looking at Friday. I love storm season...:thumbsup:


 

My generator calls started sundat night and have not stopped yet. We climbed in the van @ 4:30 monday morning and didn't get home til 10:00. What a day, Richmond is tore all to pieces.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

B4T said:


> What brand are you selling??


I quote 2 brands. Onan and Kohler.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> My generator calls started sundat night and have not stopped yet. We climbed in the van @ 4:30 monday morning and didn't get home til 10:00. What a day, Richmond is tore all to pieces.



I have one rush job. The lady is on oxygen and was without power a few weeks ago for almost 24 hours. They want it in yesterday....Just the fear has the calls coming in here. We have had some bad thunderstorms but the hurricane stayed away from us.


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## LegacyofTroy (Feb 14, 2011)

From the 'what were you thinking' category

This Guy named Moose calls me over cause he lost half his power, been like that for a couple of weeks, nothing 240 in the house, so he decides to just leave it that way. Until he decides he wants weld something on his airboat,. However his welding mach. Is 240v. So he decides to fire up his genny( which is on the boat) and runs an extension cord to his panel, cuts the cord cap off and lands the nuetral and ground on the neutral bar and the hot wire on a sp breaker which is in the panel landed on the bus where the missing leg is so now there is 120v back fed. Has every breaker turned off in his house except the main breaker and the weld mach. breaker feeding a twist lock plug. (you know where this is going)Proceeded to check his welding outlet ( he says it gave him 240v). I think he just checked each leg to ground and got 120v on each leg, instead of actual 240v. Then he tried to weld...........anybody wanna guess what happened?

the original problem could have been repaired by replacing the 200amp main breaker, he only had heavy corrosion build up from a loose connection, the voltage was intermittent and he didn't know it. When he tried to weld, the heavy load pulled the missing leg thru. When first showed up there was an electrical disaster in this guys back yard, and when he told me what he did, I couldnt believe what he was telling me....

Some people.........


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

we go thru this alot during hurricane season people ask all the time to backfeed --no way no how


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I am working on 6 proposals for generator installs ..... and have 2 more that emailed Sunday that I am going looking at Friday. I love storm season...:thumbsup:


Looking at one tomorrow AM..


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's SOP for any line crew, but they're darn sure not gonna apply grounds to an energized line, even if it's "only" backfed by a little 5kW genny.
> 
> -John


Should of inserted clear,no voltage detected, apply grounds. Linemen didn't just fall off the turkey truck.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I quote 2 brands. Onan and Kohler.


This place quotes $4949.00 for 20KW model 20RESL Kohler.. http://www.norwall.com/brands/Kohler-Power-Systems.html

Check your prices and PM me the difference if you don't mind..

I checked my *exclusive confidential price sheet *for a GENERAC model 5875..$4221.00 plus shipping and liftgate service.. Total.. $4548.00

Norwall is $4405.00 with free shipping and liftgate service.. so me as a dealer costs me $143.00 more.. DAM I feel so special..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> I checked my *exclusive confidential price sheet *for a GENERAC model 5875..$4221.00 plus shipping and liftgate service.. Total.. $4548.00
> 
> Norwall is $4405.00 with free shipping and liftgate service.. so me as a dealer costs me $143.00 more.. DAM I feel so special..


Electric generators Direct

I priced a Generac at my supplier vs the website I linked. My supplier said if they sell for the price of the website they'd be selling at their cost.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Electric generators Direct
> 
> I priced a Generac at my supplier vs the website I linked. My supplier said if they sell for the price of the website they'd be selling at their cost.


They are $50.00 more than Norwall because of litgate service..


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I try to use my supplier because I can dictate when it arrives and they have the cart to help put it in place. Doing one of those new 7kw Core power units tomorrow.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> They are $50.00 more than Norwall because of litgate service..



Do you have a Norwall link??


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Do you have a Norwall link??


Post #33..:thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> ..But don't expect your power to be restored. Just got word from someone that National Grid has detected backfeeds in outage areas, and is refusing to restore service as a result until they figure out where they are coming from.
> 
> I was just in the supply house a few hours ago and from what I overheard the stuff that people are cobbling together is just downright scary.


What back feeds are you concerned about and how do you not create that situation?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What back feeds are you concerned about and how do you not create that situation?


If you don't open the main.. current goes straight out to the POCO wires and creates a hazard for them because they think the wires are dead..


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

B4T said:


> If you don't open the main.. current goes straight out to the POCO wires and creates a hazard for them because they think the wires are dead..


I see your point but they are smarter than that. Let's say that you open the main...is there a hazard for them?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

On the news today New Brunswick Power said they had two cases this week of generators backfeeding the power lines. They check for backfeeds so no linemen were injured creating this post.


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## fowledup (Mar 27, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> I see your point but they are smarter than that. Let's say that you open the main...is there a hazard for them?


Yes- there is a potential hazard on the neutral.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I see your point but they are smarter than that. Let's say that you open the main...is there a hazard for them?





fowledup said:


> Yes- there is a potential hazard on the neutral.


No hazard if you open (and confirm all poles opened) the main.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> No hazard if you open (and confirm all poles opened) the main.


Yes but that is beyond the scope of most home owners..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes but that is beyond the scope of most home owners..


Exactly

Hence the reason for proper purpose designed xfer switches.


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## ecelectric (Mar 27, 2009)

Before we apply grounds we always test de energized before we ground,and nothing is considered dead till its grounded.we also have a procedure before we re install meter to check for back feed


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Wouldn't that backfeed continue to the transformers to 12 kV and then the substation, and step back 500KV ?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> Wouldn't that backfeed continue to the transformers to 12 kV and then the substation, and step back 500KV ?


Generally speaking, when the power is out the system is all broken up between the operating parts and the non-operating parts. So it's highly unlikely that it could happen that far back to the substation. However, there are documented cases where generator backfeeds have energized 7200 volt lines, death resulting.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I was in Peter D's favorite hangout just prior to the storm and overheard a customer talking with the store's resident expert on how to back feed said customers residence with his new generator.

Customer had ZERO worthwhile electrical knowledge right out of the gate and was absolutely attempting the procedure.

I just shook my head and walked on by........


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

FOR SALE - slightly used manure spreader, perfectly suited for use by romex ropers who lack sufficient brainpower to figure out engine driven gensets stall when overloaded.

Reasonably priced, at only $67,326 until the end of power restoration.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

So you're trying to say it's totally impossible to back feed into the POCO's distribution because it will overload the genny every time? 

:laughing: Whatever you wanna think dude.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> FOR SALE - slightly used manure spreader, perfectly suited for use by romex ropers who lack sufficient brainpower to figure out engine driven gensets stall when overloaded.
> 
> Reasonably priced, at only $67,326 until the end of power restoration.


You are so wrong .........:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

fowledup said:


> Yes- there is a potential hazard on the neutral.


Nope, none at all.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

no bad storms here and i still find S H I T every day..........

guy asked how much to run a wire to that camper yonder .............:no:


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

BBQ said:


> You are so wrong .........:laughing::laughing:


What you don't think the spreader is big enough for all the crap you have to move across your keyboard?

Your ability to type with greasy fingers astounds me.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> What you don't think the spreader is big enough for all the crap you have to move across your keyboard?
> 
> Your ability to type with greasy fingers astounds me.


Why do you think a generator can't feed a transformer and power up a storm damaged line?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Why do you think a generator can't feed a transformer and power up a storm damaged line?


 

Read post 51, he's way too arrogant to use his brain.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I had to feed a stepdown xformer only once w/ 208 volts to get 480 volts and it required 2x the amount of amps to achieve this. Theory being if the generator is tied to a parallel circuit of other homes , how will all the loads of nieghbors plus the draw of an unenergized x former not overload a 5 or 8 kw generator ? I can see the possibility of a single home fed by a dedicated xformer carrying this potential but not block set up.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> but not block set up.


Yeah but with services pulled down, poles and lines down all over you could very well be the only one left on a tranny anymore. Or maybe your back feed is just hottening up the secondary distribution running down your street.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> What you don't think the spreader is big enough for all the crap you have to move across your keyboard?
> 
> Your ability to type with greasy fingers astounds me.



And your apparent lack of understanding some basic electrical issues astounds me so I guess we are even. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And your apparent lack of understanding some basic electrical issues astounds me so I guess we are even. :laughing:


I think they best way to deal with Phil from here on out is to pretend he doesn't exist.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> FOR SALE - slightly used manure spreader, perfectly suited for use by romex ropers who lack sufficient brainpower to figure out engine driven gensets stall when overloaded....


 You can "Romex roper" all you want but I'm also in the camp that thinks this is possible and medium-voltage distribution is a big part of my job.

I think the part we're missing is that often in cases of electrocutions the linemen are working on a faulted line, so it _isn't _connected to the grid meaning the backfeed is powering little, if any, load.

-John


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Big John said:


> You can "Romex roper" all you want but I'm also in the camp that thinks this is possible and medium-voltage distribution is a big part of my job.
> 
> I think the part we're missing is that often in cases of electrocutions the linemen are working on a faulted line, so it _isn't _connected to the grid meaning the backfeed is powering little, if any, load.
> 
> -John


Don't confuse this argument with facts.


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I think they best way to deal with Phil from here on out is to pretend he doesn't exist.


Absolutely!
You and Greasy Finger seem to be collecting paychecks for ignoring and misrepresenting the Laws of Physics.

Now go grab the end of the romex and pull!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> Absolutely!
> You and Greasy Finger seem to be collecting paychecks for ignoring and misrepresenting the Laws of Physics.
> 
> Now go grab the end of the romex and pull!


You're either really stupid, or you failed to read the other post.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

*This is fun..*










Big John is right...backfed generators WILL energize the primary easily because it takes very little power to excite the average pole-pig transformer from its secondary. Just look at all the videos on Youtube of people playing with them..most are powered up with an ordinary 20 amp branch circuit. They often use a microwave transformer in series to act as a ballast to limit the current drawn when they draw arcs from the primary. BUT if left unloaded a pole pig can easily be energized off of a 20 amp (or less) feed.

Some people's inability to think outside the box really amazes me.


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

First one of you romex ropers who can explain how a 10kva or smaller genset can generate more electrons than the prime mover is capable of delivering to the shaft wins a free wirenut. I'll even make it a blue one so you can look it up and see what blues are used for.

AGAIN FOR THE STUPID- and the romex ropers, NO small generator is going to "Energize" a damn neighborhood and remain running. Insufficient engine capacity will stall the machine.

Greasy Fingers, you don't even understand mechanical advantage as you demonstrated in your post with the halfassed hoisting system. Go stand at the counter and ask for extra fries. It's the limitation of your ability.

Half of you clowns should be selling used Dorados in a ghetto with your skills. Bunch of hucksters.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> First one of you romex ropers who can explain how a 10kva or smaller genset can generate more electrons than the prime mover is capable of delivering to the shaft wins a free wirenut. I'll even make it a blue one so you can look it up and see what blues are used for.
> 
> AGAIN FOR THE STUPID- and the romex ropers, NO small generator is going to "Energize" a damn neighborhood and remain running. Insufficient engine capacity will stall the machine.
> 
> ...


Phil.. did the big kids steal your lunch money all the time in HS and it has carried over to your adult life.. :blink::blink:

You seem very bitter.. :no:


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

B4T said:


> Phil.. did the big kids steal your lunch money all the time in HS and it has carried over to your adult life.. :blink::blink:
> 
> You seem very bitter.. :no:


NOPE, I got their lunch money by selling them beer I was making under the auditorium. Spent it wisely on tools and beermaking supplies, and graduated with good money in my pocket.

Thanks for asking.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> First one of you romex ropers who can explain how a 10kva or smaller genset can generate more electrons than the prime mover is capable of delivering to the shaft wins a free wirenut. I'll even make it a blue one so you can look it up and see what blues are used for.
> 
> AGAIN FOR THE STUPID- and the romex ropers, NO small generator is going to "Energize" a damn neighborhood and remain running. Insufficient engine capacity will stall the machine.
> 
> ...


1. Never ran romex in my life, (not that there's anything wrong with that.)
2. We at disusing a storm damaged system, not powering a neighborhood.
3. In many areas a transformer runs one service, it may be a mile to the next service. 
4. Transformers work as a step-up or a step-down.
5. If you wish to debate the physics or mathematics of this subject I will be happy to review your thesis or dissertation.
6. If you are correct I will submit your work to MIT give you full authorship and credit. It would look good on your CV for breaking new grounds in electrical theorems.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

It's time for a youtube test, will someone step up to the plate with a stepdown xformer and 5 kw genny ?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think Phil has unmasked himself as a troll and should be treated as such.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> First one of you romex ropers who can explain how a 10kva or smaller genset can generate more electrons than the prime mover is capable of delivering to the shaft wins a free wirenut. I'll even make it a blue one so you can look it up and see what blues are used for.
> 
> AGAIN FOR THE STUPID- and the romex ropers, NO small generator is going to "Energize" a damn neighborhood and remain running. Insufficient engine capacity will stall the machine.
> 
> ...


Phil, 

You're wrong.

Craig


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

CraigV said:


> Phil,
> 
> You're wrong.
> 
> Craig


I'll let National Grid know that Phil says this won't be an issue. :lol:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)




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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I was in hole depot this afternoon and overheard the employee telling somebody to do this. I caught the guy in the parking lot and told him that kind of cord was called a widow maker...I met [email protected] his house and got two permanent generator installs out of the deal. One for him and one for his neighbor.


Stalker.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I think Phil has unmasked himself as a troll and should be treated as such.


 I believe that he is probably okay , with a lot of stuff to contribute. Limits are what we have to learn.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Wow. I guess it's true that you really do have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I challenge you to come up here to "the country" and find out just how candy ass our lineman are. I GUARANTEE you you go back home with a whooped ass. :thumbsup:
> Drive around the devastation we are experiencing right now and see if you feel the same way. Our trees are way bigger and we have way more of them.
> ...


I agree. those guys work hard man..... How anyone can say other wise is beside me. I was in Tenafly today and saw five big mogambo Power company trucks from Punta Gorda Florida. They have come from all over to help out. Which really shows you the scale of damage done..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I believe that he is probably okay , with a lot of stuff to contribute. Limits are what we have to learn.


Awesome. Until he changes his approach, he's a troll in my book.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Peter D said:


> I think Phil has unmasked himself as a troll and should be treated as such.


I think everyone that doesn't agree with us is a troll.


Whenever someone ask me to backfeed a generator I pitch one of those nice shiny new Generac guardians.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Awesome. Until he changes his approach, he's a troll in my book.


I kind of agree with you but I am just trying to make it easier for him to know that there is room for him here IF he calms down. He is probably okay...just with an attitude.


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Stalker.


Gee..and I was thinking what a cool way to save up for Christmas...

We're allowed to say Christmas in here right??


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> It's time for a youtube test, will someone step up to the plate with a stepdown xformer and 5 kw genny ?


And since Phil is so confident that we are all wrong, he should grab both of the primary bushings during the test, since he's so sure nothing will happen. :whistling2:


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Awesome. Until he changes his approach, he's a troll in my book.


Just between you and I Peter, think back to when Mommie told you if you didn't quit doing that to yourself you'd grow up stupid and need thick glasses.

You didn't quit, did you?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I think the part we're missing is that often in cases of electrocutions the linemen are working on a faulted line, *so it isn't connected to the grid meaning the backfeed is powering little, if any, load.*


That is a huge factor right there.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> First one of you romex ropers who can explain how a 10kva or smaller genset can generate more electrons than the prime mover is capable of delivering to the shaft wins a free wirenut. I'll even make it a blue one so you can look it up and see what blues are used for.


Well Phil, none of us had said it can provide more power than the engine is capable of so you seem to have a hard time understanding words.



> AGAIN FOR THE STUPID- and the romex ropers, NO small generator is going to "Energize" a damn neighborhood and remain running. Insufficient engine capacity will stall the machine.


Nope, you can't energize 100KW with 10 KW but you can kill linemen.

Phil, do you understand ohms law and the fact the voltage and current are interrelated? 

So if you generator is overloaded and putting out under voltage it will not see the entire current needed to power the area.

Do you also understand that not all small generators will stall the engine out when overloaded, some will just lug along under speed and under voltage until a breaker trips or smoke comes out?



> Greasy Fingers, you don't even understand mechanical advantage as you demonstrated in your post with the halfassed hoisting system.



Really?

I guess you will have to explain to me how my set up shows I don't understand mechanical advantage.:laughing:

Most likely it will end up making you look like more of a fool.:thumbsup:













> Go stand at the counter and ask for extra fries. It's the limitation of your ability.


No thanks, I would hate to displace you from front counter to parking lot cleaner.



> Half of you clowns should be selling used Dorados in a ghetto with your skills. Bunch of hucksters.


Just another troll of many, you trolls are so cool. Maybe if you ask Mom nice you can come up out of the basement and set a fort up in the yard to sleep in.:laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I believe that he is probably okay , with a lot of stuff to contribute. Limits are what we have to learn.


Really? 



Phil DeBlanc said:


> Just between you and I Peter, think back to when Mommie told you if you didn't quit doing that to yourself you'd grow up stupid and need thick glasses.
> 
> You didn't quit, did you?


What can anyone possibly learn from such posts?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> to parking lot cleaner.


Do they even do that a McDonalds? It's not like they're Quick Trip or something where they hire quality employees and care about their facilities. :laughing:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Big John said:


> Funny you should say that, because while that seems like the "common sense" answer, often it doesn't happen like that. Not sure if it's the arrangement of cutouts or what, but a backfeed can definitely run the risk of energizing a primary.
> 
> -John


OK guys, lets just understand something. If someone backfeeds a house through a 30 amp dryer outlet they are pretty much limited to the loads in their house and if lucky, an AC unit. If they backfed the whole universe through that rig, most likely either the 30amp dryer breaker would trip, the generator breaker would trip or the generator would just dog out trying to make up the inrush of all of the transformers and neighboring houses. 

Does anyone here have firsthand knowledge of someone backfeeding the national grid with a portable generator?

If the POCO just re-energized, it would most likley fry the offending generator. I could see someone backfeeding and energizing through a small pole mounted 30 and making the primary side hot causing a downed line to become hot. Linemen should be used to listening for generators and just suspecting someone backfed their house.

Has anybody thought about grid tied solar systems backfeeding into the "National grid"?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I think they best way to deal with Phil from here on out is to pretend he doesn't exist.


Who is Phil..??:blink::laughing::laughing:






Phil DeBlanc said:


> FOR SALE - slightly used manure spreader, perfectly suited for use by romex ropers who lack sufficient brainpower to figure out engine driven gensets stall when overloaded.
> 
> Reasonably priced, at only $67,326 until the end of power restoration.



:sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Has anybody thought about grid tied solar systems backfeeding into the "National grid"?


Unless someone has an inverter that is seriously FUBAR (like its Anti-islanding protection is no longer working) or it's some cheap piece of crap from china with no UL sticker it's shut itself down.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> OK guys, lets just understand something. If someone backfeeds a house through a 30 amp dryer outlet they are pretty much limited to the loads in their house and if lucky, an AC unit. If they backfed the whole universe through that rig, most likely either the 30amp dryer breaker would trip, the generator breaker would trip or the generator would just dog out trying to make up the inrush of all of the transformers and neighboring houses.


What you say would be, could be true in many cases, but it also assumes the back up generator maintains full voltage before something happens.




> Does anyone here have firsthand knowledge of someone backfeeding the national grid with a portable generator?


No one has said that it can.

A house has no power, that means the circuit is broken, it may be the only house on that part of the circuit, or maybe one of many in any case you are not backfeeding anymore then the customers side of the broken circuit.



> Has anybody thought about grid tied solar systems backfeeding into the "National grid"?



No, you are the first.:laughing:


All grid tied inverters must be designed and listed to prevent back feeding when the grid goes down. 

The power companies are pretty pissy about this the ones around here also require a visible break disconnecting means outside the building that disconnects the inverter from the building. This must be in a spot they agree to and have access to 24/7 with a big sign on it with the wording they tell me. If you fight them on this you will never get the PV system up and running.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jrannis said:


> OK guys, lets just understand something. If someone backfeeds a house through a 30 amp dryer outlet they are pretty much limited to the loads in their house and if lucky, an AC unit. If they backfed the whole universe through that rig, most likely either the 30amp dryer breaker would trip, the generator breaker would trip or the generator would just dog out trying to make up the inrush of all of the transformers and neighboring houses.
> 
> Does anyone here have firsthand knowledge of someone backfeeding the national grid with a portable generator?
> 
> ...


 
Umm, all grid tied solar systems shut down when there is no AC to sync to. Please only comment on things you actually know.

And nobody mentioned powering up the entire national grid, please stop putting words in people's mouths. What normally happens is it powers up a pole top xfmr, which is feeding an OPEN set of lines laying on the ground somewhere, under NO LOAD, until some poor lineman touches it. It's not rocket science to understand that it's possible, and has happened many times before, even resulting in the death of lineman.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The power companies are pretty pissy about this the ones around here also require a visible break disconnecting means outside the building that disconnects the inverter from the building. .


 
\

They're pissy because it's not their rules. IT's a FEDERAL requirement, enforced on them, that you have a visible open contacts for disconnect. So a breaker will not do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> \
> 
> They're pissy because it's not their rules. IT's a FEDERAL requirement, enforced on them, that you have a visible open contacts for disconnect. So a breaker will not do.


No such Federal requirement to require the disconnect in the first place and I doubt there is one for a visible break.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> No such Federal requirement to require the disconnect in the first place and I doubt there is one for a visible break.


 

Well, I've never read the requirement, but I've had three different power companies tell me it's a federal requirement. Maybe they're passing the buck? But why? 

Have you read the 1" thick stack of papers that goes along with federal monies for solar systems?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jrannis said:


> Has anybody thought about grid tied solar systems backfeeding into the "National grid"?


You are aware that National Grid is a poco, right? Not a generic expression for the nations power grid. 

www.nationalgridus.com


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## kennydmeek (Sep 12, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> And nobody mentioned powering up the entire national grid, please stop putting words in people's mouths.


Nah but it made me laugh like hell when I read it...:laughing:


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Really?
> 
> I guess you will have to explain to me how my set up shows I don't understand mechanical advantage.:laughing:
> 
> ...


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

Still insulting.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I was in hole depot this afternoon and overheard the employee telling somebody to do this. I caught the guy in the parking lot and told him that kind of cord was called a widow maker...I met [email protected] his house and got two permanent generator installs out of the deal. One for him and one for his neighbor.


Interesting in that I was shopping at one of the home-horror stores this past week, and bought a couple of those 25 foot generator cords. The ones with the NEMA L14-30 twist-lock ends. The one thing I could NOT find there was the proper flanged inlet (NEMA L14-30FI) which is needed for proper connection for a generator with an interlock kit.

BTW, I've heard those double male-ended cords referred to as "******" cords.


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

8000 volts. Yea, I believe that would kill a lineman.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Phil, you need to straighten out those those Dominion romex ropers.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Motorwinder said:


> 8000 volts. Yea, I believe that would kill a lineman.


 Good video, but on the video we can only take it as their word, because we can not see the reading.

I believe it, and I am convinced that a poco employee trying to reconnect a service entrance, could very easily be shocked, fall off a ladder, and be very seriously hurt, OR killed.

The ONLY way a generator should be connected, is through a transfer switch.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

Motorwinder said:


> 8000 volts. Yea, I believe that would kill a lineman.


 very good post motorwinder


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Peter D said:


> ..But don't expect your power to be restored. Just got word from someone that National Grid has detected backfeeds in outage areas, and is refusing to restore service as a result until they figure out where they are coming from.
> 
> I was just in the supply house a few hours ago and from what I overheard the stuff that people are cobbling together is just downright scary.


What do you think would happen if you back fed your panel without turning the main breaker off and the utility returned your service?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> What do you think would happen if you back fed your panel without turning the main breaker off and the utility returned your service?



Impossible to predict.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Impossible to predict.


Impossible??? I am not always right...just ask my wife. Current can only flow if there is a difference of potential. If you have "potentials" originating from different sources nothing can happen. Current only can flow from it's source to a load and back. Voltages with different sources have no reference to each other.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Impossible???



Unless everyone is connected to identical grids. I think the odds of that are slim and none, and Slim left town at noon.


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> What do you think would happen if you back fed your panel without turning the main breaker off and the utility returned your service?


Probably blow the generator. Could also blow the transformer.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Motorwinder said:


> Probably blow the generator. Could also blow the transformer.


Most likely, not.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

If you happened to synchronize power from your generator to the line so the sine waves converge at the same time nothing would happen, if they are slightly off, sparks, if they are 180 degrees of of phase, black smoke. like 480 said, imposable to tell.


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Most likely, not.



Maybe not, but it seems the generator windings would be the potential. Eddy currents would heat the windings in both the gen and transformer.


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

drsparky said:


> If you happened to synchronize power from your generator to the line so the sine waves converge at the same time nothing would happen, if they are slightly off, sparks, if they are 180 degrees of of phase, black smoke. like 480 said, imposable to tell.


Good point. I wonder how many home generators have 2/3 pitch windings.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Motorwinder said:


> Maybe not, but it seems the generator windings would be the potential. Eddy currents would heat the windings in both the gen and transformer.


 There is no way that a "voltage" from one source can have any attraction to a voltage of a difference source.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

drsparky said:


> If you happened to synchronize power from your generator to the line so the sine waves converge at the same time nothing would happen, if they are slightly off, sparks, if they are 180 degrees of of phase, black smoke...


 Unless it was a really small transformer, I'd bet it would force the generator into synchronism. It would probably damage the engine, destroy the generator, trip the main, and give the transformer a nice overload, but it might survive.

-John


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> There is no way that a "voltage" from one source can have any attraction to a voltage of a difference source.


I think it would be more an induction issue then a voltage issue.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Umm, all grid tied solar systems shut down when there is no AC to sync to. Please only comment on things you actually know.
> 
> And nobody mentioned powering up the entire national grid, please stop putting words in people's mouths. What normally happens is it powers up a pole top xfmr, which is feeding an OPEN set of lines laying on the ground somewhere, under NO LOAD, until some poor lineman touches it. It's not rocket science to understand that it's possible, and has happened many times before, even resulting in the death of lineman.


Thanks for being such a D!CK!! I see things you and others comment on here and wouldn't call someone out on it like that.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Motorwinder said:


> I think it would be more an induction issue then a voltage issue.


It is not possible. Maybe there is an engineer on this forum who can explain it better. The bottom line is that a "VOLTAGE" is generated at a "SOURCE" that is its own source/origination. Any current flow has to be because this particular voltage is experiencing a closed circuit... It does not involve any other source of voltage.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

jrannis said:


> OK guys, lets just understand something. If someone backfeeds a house through a 30 amp dryer outlet they are pretty much limited to the loads in their house and if lucky, an AC unit. If they backfed the whole universe through that rig, most likely either the 30amp dryer breaker would trip, the generator breaker would trip or the generator would just dog out trying to make up the inrush of all of the transformers and neighboring houses.
> 
> Does anyone here have firsthand knowledge of someone backfeeding the national grid with a portable generator?
> 
> ...


Grid-tied PV systems cant backfeed into the grid during a power outage. They require AC power to operate.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Grid-tied PV systems cant backfeed into the grid during a power outage. They require AC power to operate.



not to kill you, but, what your saying IS ? dc voltage doesnt travel on ac wires!:001_huh::blink::whistling2:


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

Motorwinder said:


> 8000 volts. Yea, I believe that would kill a lineman.


and hope fully we will burn their generator up if its grounded " quote......:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

hell yea ............ill sell em the next one:thumbup::thumbsup:


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Impossible??? I am not always right...just ask my wife. Current can only flow if there is a difference of potential. If you have "potentials" originating from different sources nothing can happen. Current only can flow from it's source to a load and back. Voltages with different sources have no reference to each other.


really............ ever touch 2 120's together?:001_huh:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

jhall.sparky said:


> really............ ever touch 2 120's together?:001_huh:


 Most likely,your 2-120 circuits were from the same source.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> Most likely,your 2-120 circuits were from the same source.


well........... good point but nope


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## Lz_69 (Nov 1, 2007)

jhall.sparky said:


> not to kill you, but, what your saying IS ? dc voltage doesnt travel on ac wires!:001_huh::blink::whistling2:


 I believe more to the effect that there's an interlock in the inverter that kills the ac output during a power outage or a transfer switch that will isolate the pv system from the grid till the regular power is restored.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> BBQ said:
> 
> 
> > Really?
> ...


Nice cop out.:laughing::laughing:

You can still point out and bad or dangerous information he just asked for a nicer tone in doing so.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Motorwinder said:


> Probably blow the generator. Could also blow the transformer.





RIVETER said:


> Most likely, not.





RIVETER said:


> It is not possible. Maybe there is an engineer on this forum who can explain it better. The bottom line is that a "VOLTAGE" is generated at a "SOURCE" that is its own source/origination. Any current flow has to be because this particular voltage is experiencing a closed circuit... It does not involve any other source of voltage.


Riveter lets say I have two 12 volt car batteries not connected to anything siting on a bench.

Now let me connect them together with jumper cables reverse polarity.

What will happen?


It is the same thing with AC that is not synchronized, the further the synchronization is off the higher the current flow between the two sources.

Bad things will happen if you try to bring a large unsynchronized generator into a system. Blown up tie switches, boards, maybe a broken crankshaft on the prime mover.

I use to work at a place that made their own power, they had three 500 KW diesel gensets and depending on the load one or two of them would normally run, If we were running on one and the load increased we would have to manually start another, and then using a thing that looked a lot like this











we would have to get them in sync. once they were very close to being in sync you would close the tie breaker.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Grid-tied PV systems cant backfeed into the grid during a power outage. They require AC power to operate.





jhall.sparky said:


> not to kill you, but, what your saying IS ? dc voltage doesnt travel on ac wires!:001_huh::blink::whistling2:


jhall ???????? PWI maybe?:drink::drink::drink:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bbq said:


> riveter lets say i have two 12 volt car batteries not connected to anything siting on a bench.
> 
> Now let me connect them together with jumper cables reverse polarity.
> 
> ...


 










Perfectly synchronized









Not synchronized


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> not to kill you, but, what your saying IS ? dc voltage doesnt travel on ac wires!:001_huh::blink::whistling2:


Have you ever installed a grid-tied solar system before. First, they are mandated to have a 5 minute delay feature built in. If AC power is turned off for any reason and then turned back on the inverter will not start producing power for 5 minutes. Second, a grid-tied inverter will NOT produce any power for your house or back to the grid without AC power being present. I have many customers who think that their new solar system will produce if there's a power outage, and I always have to let them down.


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## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Nice cop out.:laughing::laughing:
> 
> You can still point out and bad or dangerous information he just asked for a nicer tone in doing so.


You and your ilk are the ones Mr Alwon finds a necessity to protect from truth, as you continue to demonstrate in this thread.

Rest assured were you working for me I'd have terminated you for unsafe workmanship.

I merely choose to eschew at Mr Alwon's DEMAND additional comment on your ability to work in a trade you purport to be a Master of.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> You and your ilk are the ones Mr Alwon finds a necessity to protect from truth, as you continue to demonstrate in this thread.
> 
> Rest assured were you working for me I'd have terminated you for unsafe workmanship.
> 
> I merely choose to eschew at Mr Alwon's DEMAND additional comment on your ability to work in a trade you purport to be a Master of.


You post a lot of words but no facts.. :blink::blink:

Tell us HOW the job was setup "unsafe".. :thumbsup:

I'm sure you can post a complete sentence without being demeaning..


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> You and your ilk are the ones Mr Alwon finds a necessity to protect from truth, as you continue to demonstrate in this thread.


Again no one has stoped you from speaking any truth.

If you have something to say go ahead and say it.



> Rest assured were you working for me I'd have terminated you for unsafe workmanship.


You assume a lot to think I would even want to work for you.:laughing:



> I merely choose to eschew at Mr Alwon's DEMAND additional comment on your ability to work in a trade you purport to be a Master of.


In other words you can't just admit your were wrong, it is OK, I understand.:thumbup:


----------



## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Again no one has stoped you from speaking any truth.
> 
> If you have something to say go ahead and say it.
> 
> ...


I interpit Mr Alwon's prohibition differently than you and your ilk, and pending his open and public reversal of said prohibition of explaining the multiple missteps in your representation, I'll not comment beyond asking if you learned rigging from a Girl Scout booklet.

You are absolutely correct, I probably never would employ someone of your skillset which becomes more evident with each of your posts.

Sadly you can't even master drawing an inference from an implication. So sad. Perhaps if you spent more time learning the craft you purport to be a member of and less time publicly representing your lack of skill, but then I only speculate on your ability to learn.

B4T if you can't see the safety issues in that lashup you too are in deep trouble.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> I interpit Mr Alwon's prohibition differently than you and your ilk, and pending his open and public reversal of said prohibition of explaining the multiple missteps in your representation, I'll not comment beyond asking if you learned rigging from a Girl Scout booklet.
> 
> You are absolutely correct, I probably never would employ someone of your skillset which becomes more evident with each of your posts.
> 
> ...


BBQ has plainly impressed me, under many aliases, far more than the BS you've posted in this thread. Be gone


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Phil DeBlanc said:


> B4T if you can't see the safety issues in that lashup you too are in deep trouble.


OK.. then please explain it to me because I don't see any safety issues here..

Just exactly what is your certification on "rigging" that you can call another man's work "unsafe"..


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Is it still a safety issue if I myself a qualified licensed electrician turns off his main and plugs his genny into the dryer receptacle ?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Is it still a safety issue if I myself a qualified licensed electrician turns off his main and plugs his genny into the dryer receptacle ?


Yes, still illegal.


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## BustedKnuckle (Sep 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Is it still a safety issue if I myself a qualified licensed electrician turns off his main and plugs his genny into the dryer receptacle ?


Yes. You may be a professional but you can still forget or make a mistake, especially at home when you may be doing this in the middle of the night. OR, you may be explaining how to do it to your wife or child, who may make a mistake. As an electrician, you can setup an inlet and interlock kit cheaper than anyone else so there really isn't an excuse, in my honest opinion.


----------



## Phil DeBlanc (May 29, 2010)

B4T said:


> OK.. then please explain it to me because I don't see any safety issues here..
> 
> Just exactly what is your certification on "rigging" that you can call another man's work "unsafe"..


NCCO Level 2 which I'm allowing to expire in 2013 because I'm RETIRED.
MSHA Module 15 instructor


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

It's surprising with all the safety oriented thinking and their agenda to preserve life the NFPA would require mandatory generator lockouts on all new main load centers.....Did I give them a idea ?


----------



## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

backfeeding a dryer rec. with a two-headed (widow maker) death cord is not a good idea. I cant believe anyone on here would do it, but I am a safety nut.

I laughed at homeowners' wives asking for such a cord when their christmas tree light layouts didn't go as planned. "Do they make a cord with two ends on it?":thumbup::laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We have a really good home improvement show on the radio on Saturday mornings. Today a guy called about hooking a genny up.Back feeding it with no transfer switch.... They told him just make sure the main is off.....:whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Is it still a safety issue if I myself a qualified licensed electrician turns off his main and plugs his genny into the dryer receptacle ?


That is basically what we do when we hook up a genset to a super market. We turn off the main, place a lock out tag out on it and backfeed whatever we can, either the switch board or last Monday I was able to backfeed a 700 amp feeder.


----------



## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Wow. I guess it's true that you really do have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I challenge you to come up here to "the country" and find out just how candy ass our lineman are. I GUARANTEE you you go back home with a whooped ass. :thumbsup:
> Drive around the devastation we are experiencing right now and see if you feel the same way. Our trees are way bigger and we have way more of them.
> ...


I agree to that


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Shockdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Is it still a safety issue if I myself a qualified licensed electrician turns off his main and plugs his genny into the dryer receptacle ?
> ...


 Not to get sidetracked, but is it actually illegal or just a bad idea?

I mean, as electricians we can make a lot of mistakes that can endanger someone. Screw up a shower light installation and you can run the risk of electrocuting someone, but nobody thinks twice about it when they install those.

Seems to me we have the knowledge and talent to be able to do this perfectly safely if it's under our control.

-John


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BBQ said:


> That is basically what we do when we hook up a genset to a super market. We turn off the main, place a lock out tag out on it and backfeed whatever we can, either the switch board or last Monday I was able to backfeed a 700 amp feeder.


i temped out a 7-11 by backfeeding one panel. I tie wrapped the main in the OFF position. i guess the owners handy guy figured out the rest since I have not heard back from them.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> Seems to me we have the knowledge and talent to be able to do this perfectly safely if it's under our control.


Your gut feeling does not fail you.

99% if the time a temped in generator will be an optional standby system so Article 702 applies along with 590 Temps. Specifically 702.6 requires a transfer switch but there is an exception.


2008 NEC


> 702.6 Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator
> without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions
> of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
> qualified persons service the installation and where the
> ...


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Amps are what matters, not volts. There are stun guns that deliver 100,000 volts.


That is true. What you are missing is that the stun gun limits the current to non-lethal levels (at least that's how they are supposed to work). A pole top transformer does not.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What you are missing is that the stun gun limits the current to non-lethal levels



No I am not missing that. I understand that. I was simply stating a fact......


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> No I am not missing that. I understand that. I was simply stating a fact......


Yes, and in reference to this particular discussion, the 8000 volts supplied by the transformer can most definitely kill.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yes, and in reference to this particular discussion, the 8000 volts supplied by the transformer can most definitely kill.


Actually, in reference to this particular discussion, the _current_ supplied by the transformer can most definitely kill.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> Interesting in that I was shopping at one of the home-horror stores this past week, and bought a couple of those 25 foot generator cords. The ones with the NEMA L14-30 twist-lock ends. The one thing I could NOT find there was the proper flanged inlet (NEMA L14-30FI) which is needed for proper connection for a generator with an interlock kit.


I'm surprised you were able to find anything generator related at all. Just got back from HD tonight and they were stripped clean of anything even remotely generator related - every bit of 10/3 Romex, even the short coils was gone, twitslocks, 30 amp/ 2 pole breakers, inlet boxes, cords, gentrans - all gone. Oh, and of course all the 3 and 4 wire 30 amp dryer male plugs were gone too.  They had a few scraps of 10/4 rubber cord laying around but that was about it.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Actually, in reference to this particular discussion, the _current_ supplied by the transformer can most definitely kill.


No kidding.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Phil posts, Phil pizzes you off with nonsense.


Phil posts, Phil pizzes you off with nonsense.


Phil posts, Phil pizzes you off with nonsense.


You keeping dragging this on and on and on and on.


Is anyone winning here? Seems like everyone *HAS *to have the last word.


Are you guys married to Phil?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> not to kill you, but, what your saying IS ? dc voltage doesnt travel on ac wires!:001_huh::blink::whistling2:


 When ac power is lost, the pv shuts down.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

76nemo said:


> Phil posts, Phil pizzes you off with nonsense.
> 
> 
> Phil posts, Phil pizzes you off with nonsense.
> ...


 LOL some of these guys love to fight.... day after day they go at it like pit bulls....


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

captkirk said:


> LOL some of these guys love to fight.... day after day they go at it like pit bulls....


 
I just can't figure out why. 


This is why I choose to stay single:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

captkirk said:


> LOL some of these guys love to fight.... day after day they go at it like pit bulls....


It has to do with everyday BS that all of us have to put up with..

Easy to come here to vent and have fun along the way.. not many guys here think the same.. :no:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

after dealing with customers, GC's, inspectors, wife, two year old daughter, paperwork, house chores, unfinished home projects ...I dont have much fight left in me... 

I used to be pretty argumentative when i first came to these sites...not anymore...unless some one says something really stupid...or im drunk


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

captkirk said:


> after dealing with customers, GC's, inspectors, wife, two year old daughter, paperwork, house chores, unfinished home projects ...I dont have much fight left in me...
> 
> I used to be pretty argumentative when i first came to these sites...not anymore...unless some one says something really stupid...or im drunk


 

"I love you man". :laughing:


I don't have any energy in me to bicker either:no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

captkirk said:


> after dealing with customers, GC's, inspectors, wife, two year old daughter, paperwork, house chores, unfinished home projects ...I dont have much fight left in me...
> 
> I used to be pretty argumentative when i first came to these sites...not anymore...unless some one says something really stupid...or im drunk


The difference here on the forum is nothing matters, while all those issues above can make a or break the profit.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Peter D said:


> That is true. What you are missing is that the stun gun limits the current to non-lethal levels (at least that's how they are supposed to work). A pole top transformer does not.


Tell that to a friend on mine that slipped into Cardiac arrest.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

captkirk said:


> LOL some of these guys love to fight.... day after day they go at it like pit bulls....


 
Some pitbulls are perfectly happy while ripping apart a little child.



In that sense of the word, I'm perfectly happy:thumbup:


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## BustedKnuckle (Sep 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Tell that to a friend on mine that slipped into Cardiac arrest.


He was an inch away from it already. He was fat, or snorted too much coke, or ate poorly, etc. 

In all cases of a taser killing someone, those people were not far away from a heart attack before the taser hit them. The taser just set it off, just like being frightened has set off heart attacks in people with poor heart health.


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## 636Sparky (Jun 24, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Riveter lets say I have two 12 volt car batteries not connected to anything siting on a bench.
> 
> Now let me connect them together with jumper cables reverse polarity.
> 
> ...


I work with these on a daily basis. I work on large portable pieces of equipment that requires the paralelling of several 1000-1500 kw gensets.
I have never had the misfortune of seeing two gensets so far out of sync, that major damage occurs, but it is my understanding that the genset that is out of sync with buss, would be physically pulled in to sync; and more than likely be destroyed (gen or prime mover).
I tend to believe this after seeing the results of a primemover shutting down, and tie breaker not opening due to a failure of the safety features (reverse power relays, undervoltage, etc.) due to some braniac before me disconnecting them. The prime mover died, but the buss continued to drive the primemover. The prime mover was destroyed.
I would think that when POCO reenergized, that if the gen didn't go boom, something similar to this would probably occur to the prime mover.


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

captkirk said:


> after dealing with customers, GC's, inspectors, wife, two year old daughter, paperwork, house chores, unfinished home projects ...I dont have much fight left in me...
> 
> I used to be pretty argumentative when i first came to these sites...not anymore...unless some one says something really stupid...or im drunk


Well, don't get drunk, it is always painful tomorrow with a two year old, at least that us what I remember


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Steinsbu52 said:


> Well, don't get drunk, it is always painful tomorrow with a two year old, at least that us what I remember


Lol....I don't drink that much anymore.....because of the baby..


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> No hazard if you open (and confirm all poles opened) the main.


I still have a hard time believing about a hazard related to not opening the neutral. Maybe the code should require a three pole main breaker, that disconnects the neutral, as well as the two hot legs. I installed a manual transfer panel several years ago, to go with a 5KW genset. It was a SQ.D that had a toggle that would allow only one breaker to be thrown at a time. Either the generator or mains power. I'm sure all you are familular with this setup.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> I still have a hard time believing about a hazard related to not opening the neutral. Maybe the code should require a three pole main breaker, that disconnects the neutral, as well as the two hot legs.


It is imposable for the homes generator to back feed anything with just one conductor.

It would also be difficult to truly disconnect it as the neutrals from the utility and the generator will always both be connected to earth.


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