# Is my pay too low?



## DansElectric

I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.

I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.

I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.

I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


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## Southeast Power

You are now building the foundation of your career. If that means working for cheap for a year or two, that's OK.
One thing about pay increases, you have to move out to move up in pay if you want more than a 5% or 10% raise. If you have a year or more experience doing the work you describe, you should expect to make 2x what you are making now.
The key is to show up early enough be working at your start time. Your military background should work to your benefit as you can be on time and take orders.
The thing that can hurt you is the market you are in. If you are in a low population area or stuck in a self-loathing southern right to poverty state, you might just have to accept what the boss man hands you.


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## awjelectric

Id start you at $25 an hour


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## MotoGP1199

Location is everything. Rates vary greatly depending on state and county


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## LGLS

Thanks for the details Dan - that was perfect. Now where are you? Because the range of answers depends on that. What's the market like?


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## ohm it hertz

Commercial work presents so many challenges to meet code that resi will never teach you. For the most part, if you've roughed in and trimmed out a house, you've done them all. But a dentist's office, pharmacy or warehouse with conveyor belts? All three present their own challenges.

If you're looking to get hired elsewhere, I think a commercial contractor would be the way to go.


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## Southeast Power

ohm it hertz said:


> Commercial work presents so many challenges to meet code that resi will never teach you. For the most part, if you've roughed in and trimmed out a house, you've done them all. But a dentist's office, pharmacy or warehouse with conveyor belts? All three present their own challenges.
> 
> If you're looking to get hired elsewhere, I think a commercial contractor would be the way to go.


Put a commercial guy in a house and no way would they pass an inspection, no way.


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## DansElectric

I'm in a poor part of the country. I'm a lot slower than the journeyman I'm under since he's been doing it for 30 years and I just stated, basically. So I'm not worth $25/hour, but hopefully more than $11/hr. So I'm wiring up subpanels for houses but the journeyman can do it twice as fast and knows all the little tricks I don't. This company really frustrates me though. It's not just the pay either. The one journeyman I'm under has the angelic personality of Mr. Rogers, and the other guy is super grouchy and flies off the handle at everything. There's no middle ground.


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## Buck Parrish Electric

LGLS said:


> Thanks for the details Dan - that was perfect. Now where are you? Because the range of answers depends on that. What's the market like?


He said he's from Florida , not sure if that helps or not, hope so.. I know very little about the pay in Florida.


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## awjelectric

Southeast Power said:


> Put a commercial guy in a house and no way would they pass an inspection, no way.


Thats the truth


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## Southeast Power

Buck Parrish Electric said:


> He said he's from Florida , not sure if that helps or not, hope so.. I know very little about the pay in Florida.


The State is so differently divided. One end has glitz, glamor, international wealth being tossed around, mega yachts, supercars, other parts are straight up service industry work, and others very sparsely populated farming, pockets of retirement communities, fishing, ranching. 
Some areas you are expected to rough a house for $2.50 an SF, other parts, your walk-away price is $11to $12. Journeyman wages can be as little at $15 to $17 non-union to almost sadly $34.25 plus about $12 per hour union wages in the highest paying locals.
That is about %25 less, adjusted for inflation, than we were making 35 years ago. 
Where is all of the construction money going when 2,000 sf houses are selling for 400k?


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## LGLS

Southeast Power said:


> Put a commercial guy in a house and no way would they pass an inspection, no way.


And vice versa. But... most get their start in residential, realize it pays shyte,and move on, but they can always fall back on it. The reverse is not true, a lot of guys start and remain residential, and that's why it's the lowest paid segment, that job market is flooded.


DansElectric said:


> I'm in a poor part of the country. I'm a lot slower than the journeyman I'm under since he's been doing it for 30 years and I just stated, basically. So I'm not worth $25/hour, but hopefully more than $11/hr. So I'm wiring up subpanels for houses but the journeyman can do it twice as fast and knows all the little tricks I don't. This company really frustrates me though. It's not just the pay either. The one journeyman I'm under has the angelic personality of Mr. Rogers, and the other guy is super grouchy and flies off the handle at everything. There's no middle ground.


I had a journeyman that was both. OK well poor part of the country doesn't help me.


Southeast Power said:


> ...
> Where is all of the construction money going when 2,000 sf houses are selling for 400k?


Where it's always gone.


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## Coppersmith

As a first year apprentice, you have to expect your wage to be low. I would expect you to get a raise each year until you are making journeyman wages. I've always been in the union. I don't know how well non-union companies stick to that schedule. It's written in stone for union apprentices. Try asking your employer if there is a schedule of raises so you know what to expect.

I'm very concerned that you are working hot. I know you said you have lots of experience, but they have you ranked as a first year apprentice. It's very dangerous to work hot, unless you are very experienced. Union apprentices are not allowed to work hot until fifth year, and then only under the direct supervision of a j-man.


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## Yankee77

A decent way to figure if your in the ball park wage wise is to check your states prevailing wages, non union is a little less , but it should be in the same ballpark or you’re not being paid fairly, JMO.


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## wiz1997

If you believe you are currently being paid what you are worth, you're selling yourself short.
This goes for any level electrician.


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## Southeast Power

wiz1997 said:


> If you believe you are currently being paid what you are worth, you're selling yourself short.
> This goes for any level electrician.


Did I read your comment correctly? If so, I need a raise.


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## oldsparky52

DansElectric said:


> I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour.


I'd print the above and take it to the owner.

If I didn't get my raise, I'd start looking. 

I came up like you, working non union for scumbags doing resi work. The best thing I did was to quit that job and take a better one, a few times. I was in my early 20's and settled down about 27 years old. 

In the union, the group looks out for your pay. In the non union world, you are on your own. 

My prediction for you is that you will get your time in, test for your contractors license, and start your own business. I wish you success.


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## wiz1997

Southeast Power said:


> Did I read your comment correctly? If so, I need a raise.


Yep, me too!
It was something my Dad always said.


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## splatz

Southeast Power said:


> Did I read your comment correctly? If so, I need a raise.


I want to see something, could you please give yourself that raise? Then check and report in. If I am doing the math correctly, you will still need a raise immediately after. 

Then if you do it again, well, I see where this goes. You could wind up making a fortune here.


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## ZacharyBob

Feels pretty low given all the information, I know Florida pays badly but I wouldn't take those kinds of risks for $11/hr. That said I don't know what other options there are in your area, I've heard a lot of bad things about being an electrician in Florida. 

I live in a town of 1500 in rural northern California and started non union @ $14/hr, was $19/hr by the start of year two. Never expected to do hot work, would've been fired had I done it against my contractors wishes.


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## MikeFL

DansElectric said:


> ... Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise *after my 90 day review*, I might start looking for another job.


You accepted the job at $11/ hour. 
You've been there <90 days and you're not happy with the wage.
Things just don't move that fast. If you get a higher offer, make the decision which is best for you. 
Move around too much and nobody will want to hire you because the'd be investing in someone who's not going to stick around. 

Hang in there, and thank you for your military service.


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## Southeast Power

splatz said:


> I want to see something, could you please give yourself that raise? Then check and report in. If I am doing the math correctly, you will still need a raise immediately after.
> 
> Then if you do it again, well, I see where this goes. You could wind up making a fortune here.


I have to pay myself the $34.25 journeyman rate that is on the payroll report I send in every month. If I pay myself any more or less than that, I will have a problem if I get audited. The audits are under Federal Jurisdiction. The Federal court the file in is located in Illinois. Our trade has oodles of rules and regulations. I have found it best to find out what they are and follow them to the letter. 
Also, my health and welfare, and pension are based on hours worked, working dues are 3% of my gross pay.
If I cut my hours, its possible to lose my healthcare coverage, and or lose a qualified year towards my pension. 
Bottom line, I don't get a raise unless its for all of us.


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## splatz

Southeast Power said:


> I have to pay myself the $34.25 journeyman rate that is on the payroll report I send in every month. If I pay myself any more or less than that, I will have a problem if I get audited. The audits are under Federal Jurisdiction. The Federal court the file in is located in Illinois. Our trade has oodles of rules and regulations. I have found it best to find out what they are and follow them to the letter.
> Also, my health and welfare, and pension are based on hours worked, working dues are 3% of my gross pay.
> If I cut my hours, its possible to lose my healthcare coverage, and or lose a qualified year towards my pension.
> Bottom line, I don't get a raise unless its for all of us.


Nothing ventured


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## Southeast Power

splatz said:


> Nothing ventured


 I live a corporate life with most of my daily expenses covered by the business. I get per diem when I travel. I get one hacksaw blade per month and one new drill bit per quarter. I think I have a sweet deal.


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## joe-nwt

If I was looking at $11.00/hr I would be moving. I could care less what the weather is like. 

I realize for some it's not that simple.


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## Coppersmith

At Local 915 in Tampa, the first through fifth year wages are $15.01, 16.51, 18.01, 21.01, 22.51. When you add in vacation pay, pension, health benefits, and the rest, the total package is $19.37 to 31.95. Journeymen earn a package worth $35.28 to 42.42 depending upon type of job.

Florida union pay is very low compared to the rest of the nation. Non-union is even lower. (Something to do with everybody wanting to move here and lower union membership.)

(based on rate card ending 11/30/2020)


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## Southeast Power

Coppersmith said:


> At Local 915 in Tampa, the first through fifth year wages are $15.01, 16.51, 18.01, 21.01, 22.51. When you add in vacation pay, pension, health benefits, and the rest, the total package is $19.37 to 31.95. Journeymen earn a package worth $35.28 to 42.42 depending upon type of job.
> 
> Florida union pay is very low compared to the rest of the nation. Non-union is even lower. (Something to do with everybody wanting to move here and lower union membership.)
> 
> (based on rate card ending 11/30/2020)


Our state republican legislature is voting on a law to strip living wage ordinances. Isn't that nice? Keep voting them in, we will be like Oliver Twist.


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## DansElectric

I helped upgrade a service yesterday. I worked in the meter base hot. That's what we always do. The journeyman worked in the basement wiring up the main panel. 

Here's what is really bugging me: about 15 minutes after I accepted the job offer at the company I am at, another job offer came in for a huge commercial/industrial electrical company that would have paid me a lot more. But I didn't want to go back on my word, so I turned down the second job offer. Now I am thinking about re-applying at the larger company after 12 months' time.


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## gpop

Glass is half full or half empty.

There are a bunch of first years reading this post that are jealous as hell that you have a journeyman that's willing to let you wire a panel especially when you admit that you are slow and require supervision. Your pay sucks even for a poor arse town in Florida so use the job to tick as many resume boxes as possible then move on.

P.s rocking the boat before 90 days never ends up going well. I would wait till after the 90 and see what they offer.


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## emtnut

Agree with MikeFl and Gpop ... 90 days in, and you want a raise ??

If you're learning the trade, and you are registered as an apprentice, learn and do good work. The pay should come. If it doesn't, move on after a year or so.


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## LGLS

DansElectric said:


> I helped upgrade a service yesterday. I worked in the meter base hot. That's what we always do. The journeyman worked in the basement wiring up the main panel.
> 
> Here's what is really bugging me: about 15 minutes after I accepted the job offer at the company I am at, another job offer came in for a huge commercial/industrial electrical company that would have paid me a lot more. But I didn't want to go back on my word, so I turned down the second job offer. Now I am thinking about re-applying at the larger company after 12 months' time.


F that - contact them and see if the offer still stands. If it does, jump ship. Life is too short to work with weasels when you can soar with eagles. You're at a shop less than 90 days you can leave that off any future resume. Before I got into the union I worked for shops for less than a month - only as long as it took to get another job after discovering the industry is full of contractors that suck donkey bells and are good at only one thing - making money for themselves only. If that.


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## gpop

LGLS said:


> F that - contact them and see if the offer still stands. If it does, jump ship. Life is too short to work with weasels when you can soar with eagles. You're at a shop less than 90 days you can leave that off any future resume. Before I got into the union I worked for shops for less than a month - only as long as it took to get another job after discovering the industry is full of contractors that suck donkey bells and are good at only one thing - making money for themselves only. If that.


Lmao he will be back in a few months bitching that hes doing nothing but picking up trash and sweeping the floor.


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## Coppersmith

Coppersmith said:


> I'm very concerned that you are working hot. I know you said you have lots of experience, but they have you ranked as a first year apprentice. It's very dangerous to work hot, unless you are very experienced. Union apprentices are not allowed to work hot until fifth year, and then only under the direct supervision of a j-man.





DansElectric said:


> I helped upgrade a service yesterday. I worked in the meter base hot. That's what we always do. The journeyman worked in the basement wiring up the main panel.


I consider pulling a meter from a hot meter base one of the most dangerous things I do. I put on FR clothing, hot gloves, and a helmet with an arc flash shield to do it. I hope you're doing the same. There is no circuit breaker on that meter so if something goes wrong, a lot of hot liquid metal is going flying.

I would never consider de-terming the wires from a hot meter base. I hope you aren't doing that.

It sounds to me like this company does not care much about your safety. I would leave them and go to another company ASAP. The most important thing you can do is come home alive at the end of the day. I'm not joking.


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## DansElectric

gpop said:


> Lmao he will be back in a few months bitching that hes doing nothing but picking up trash and sweeping the floor.


Probably not. If I understood the interviewer correctly, I would have hit the ground running there also.


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## DansElectric

Coppersmith said:


> I consider pulling a meter from a hot meter base one of the most dangerous things I do. I put on FR clothing, hot gloves, and a helmet with an arc flash shield to do it. I hope you're doing the same. There is no circuit breaker on that meter so if something goes wrong, a lot of hot liquid metal is going flying.
> 
> I would never consider de-terming the wires from a hot meter base. I hope you aren't doing that.
> 
> It sounds to me like this company does not care much about your safety. I would leave them and go to another company ASAP. The most important thing you can do is come home alive at the end of the day. I'm not joking.


We always pull the meter hot. No one wears PPE unless we are working on 480 V.


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## splatz

DansElectric said:


> Here's what is really bugging me: about 15 minutes after I accepted the job offer at the company I am at, another job offer came in for a huge commercial/industrial electrical company that would have paid me a lot more. But I didn't want to go back on my word, so I turned down the second job offer. Now I am thinking about re-applying at the larger company after 12 months' time.


Just on the business side of your post, it's really important that you understand you have a huge misconception here. Your word is not the timeless, immutable, infallible word of God. You accepted an offer for employment. You did not sell your soul. You did not enter into servitude or slavery. You just said you'd take the job they offered. 

You didn't sign a contract. Your acceptance could be considered a verbal contract. There are some legal and ethical obligations to act in good faith, but they're pretty limited. Like it would be wrong to go applying for jobs intending to never show up just to give employers a headache, or taking a job just so you could see where they put the scrap metal so you could rob them at the end of your first day. 

You're what's called an "employee at will" - they can fire you at any time for just about any reason or no reason at all. Your obligation to them is similarly minimal. You could quit at any time on any given day for any reason. You could certainly change your mind about accepting the job 15 minutes after your acceptance - nobody would even blink about that. 

Your well-intentioned mistake was an expensive one, but that's life, don't get too worked up about it. You gained some experience and you made some money. Could have done better could have done worse. But go do better now if you can. 

It would be OK to tell the one you passed on that you were just trying to do the right thing. They might roll their eyes a bit that you were such a rube, taking your acceptance of an $11 offer so seriously. I think what will make more of an impression is that you showed some consideration for your employer's interests as well as your own. That's an important thing in someone you work with.


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## yankeejoe1141

When I first moved back home I had two job interviews lined up the same day. First was at a temp agency, they offered me $25/hr to work all summer long on a college dorm remodel in town for one of the biggest electrical contractors in the area. Later the same day I meet a small time EC that only had two guys in his shop and only did residential, mostly generators, he could only pay me $19/hr. 

Difference was I never worked in a house before, on the interview he actually handed me a piece of paper and told me to draw a three-way switch circuit which I couldn’t, I was so embarrassed. He still offered me the job, I called the temp agency and told them no thanks. I worked only residential for six months at lower wages until I moved on. I wanted to learn what I didn’t know. 

Point is I STILL think back to all the things I learned working for Chuck, I’d do it again in a heartbeat, especially since now I run my own resi-side business. 

And now I’m pretty good at troubleshooting multi-switching arrangements too.


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## 99cents

DansElectric said:


> I helped upgrade a service yesterday. I worked in the meter base hot. That's what we always do. The journeyman worked in the basement wiring up the main panel.
> 
> Here's what is really bugging me: about 15 minutes after I accepted the job offer at the company I am at, another job offer came in for a huge commercial/industrial electrical company that would have paid me a lot more. But I didn't want to go back on my word, so I turned down the second job offer. Now I am thinking about re-applying at the larger company after 12 months' time.


That’s exactly what you should do. And, next time, do what’s best for you. Your nice guy attitude doesn’t work in reverse. Besides that, any company that has an apprentice work on a hot meter box is dog poop.


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## paulengr

Four different issues here. The first is market rates. My company works on motors including very large ones, drives and controls, and breakers and starters. Our rates (to the customer) are in the $100-200 range depending on the job. This is in the “self loathing” whatever the dumb hick Yankees call it South. Funny how New York keeps losing population and Florida keeps increasing. If you are doing rough in’s on houses you are competing against the high school dropout down the street that can learn the same thing in a couple months. You are in what is called a starter job. The only reason you are getting $11 instead of $7.25 is that there is more skill and a less desirable work environment in Florida summer than sweeping floors. Now if you can troubleshoot a 500 HP VFD driven motor the dropout down the street isn’t going to be competing with you in the job market. So you get paid more because fewer electricians are available. Pay goes up in a “tight” job market. The more specialized your skills are the better the pay. It’s the reason Tesla can charge a lot more for a car than Ford and the reason Ford is getting out of cars (no money in it...too much competition).

The other part of this is the rat race. If I feed you $0.25 raises and maybe give you.a $1 raise as a promotion, you will keep running that maze forever looking for your scrap of cheese. I get JW skills for apprentice rates and you happily accept it. The way out is to make moves periodically (every 2-4 years) where you change jobs and move your pay up to market rates as long as you got the skills to match. If you are gradually doing bigger and more challenging things over say 5 years so there is a progression 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that’s worth something. But if all you do is rough in’s so there is no progression and you have 5 years of experience, all 1st years, don’t expect a pay increase to “market rates”. You’re still a first year apprentice. The only way to avoid the “rat race” is to recognize what it is and then avoid getting caught up in it. Eventually you end up the guy building the rat maze.

A third issue is location. Sure we can charge $100-200/hour but our client base are larger industrial and municipal operations for the most part. So in the more rural area that would be the wood products plants, feed mills, meat packing plants, maybe a water or waste water plant here or there, and the occasional manufacturing plant. If you think about what is around you, it can get pretty scattered. On this job I’ve worked on jobs anywhere from major government locations in DC to plants in Southern Georgia but typically it’s the Eastern half of North Carolina plus a good portion of Virginia and South Carolina. It’s a rare day that I do a job in my home town. Each town might have 1-2 customers. So my average road time per day is 2-4 hours. I drive directly from home to the job site. So the time I’m actually working is typically only 4-6 hours per day at most. My work schedule is even more erratic than construction work. So travel is simply part of the job. We get paid for road time. Even before my current job most of my jobs were in mining companies and heavy industrial plants. People don’t like smoke stacks in their back yard. My shortest commute ever in 35+ years was 15 minutes and the longest was about 1-1:4 hours. Plant was in the Philly-NYC corridor...insane housing prices. If I moved the higher pay rate would have just gotten eaten up by the taxes.

A fourth issue is mastering a skill. You can learn to bend conduit on YouTube. It won’t be neat and even. It will take a long time to do. If you do it all the time and keep trying to do a better job each time eventually you get faster and it looks better. It becomes second nature. That’s when you master a skill. So the JW you are working with mastered rough in’s. You will get faster too and carry some of that skill into other areas. If it’s a skill you can use elsewhere and worth mastering stick with it. I can’t draw a loop in solid core to land it very well. 99% of the wiring I do is stranded. I don’t use solid wire except on my own house. I have no reason to master that skill.

So in summary if you see skills worth mastering stick with it. If there is no upside, time to move. If you have skills now that pay better elsewhere change jobs. Dong get caught thinking there is any value in loyalty to a business (friendships are another matter). None of the current Dow Jones companies were on the list 30 years ago. The average small business lasts 5 years and the average employee stays in the same job only a couple years. Time the moves. Don’t become someone that looks like they can’t hold down a job but don’t stay with a dead end choice.


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## DansElectric

paulengr said:


> Four different issues here. The first is market rates. My company works on motors including very large ones, drives and controls, and breakers and starters. Our rates (to the customer) are in the $100-200 range depending on the job. This is in the “self loathing” whatever the dumb hick Yankees call it South. Funny how New York keeps losing population and Florida keeps increasing. If you are doing rough in’s on houses you are competing against the high school dropout down the street that can learn the same thing in a couple months. You are in what is called a starter job. The only reason you are getting $11 instead of $7.25 is that there is more skill and a less desirable work environment in Florida summer than sweeping floors. Now if you can troubleshoot a 500 HP VFD driven motor the dropout down the street isn’t going to be competing with you in the job market. So you get paid more because fewer electricians are available. Pay goes up in a “tight” job market. The more specialized your skills are the better the pay. It’s the reason Tesla can charge a lot more for a car than Ford and the reason Ford is getting out of cars (no money in it...too much competition).
> 
> The other part of this is the rat race. If I feed you $0.25 raises and maybe give you.a $1 raise as a promotion, you will keep running that maze forever looking for your scrap of cheese. I get JW skills for apprentice rates and you happily accept it. The way out is to make moves periodically (every 2-4 years) where you change jobs and move your pay up to market rates as long as you got the skills to match. If you are gradually doing bigger and more challenging things over say 5 years so there is a progression 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that’s worth something. But if all you do is rough in’s so there is no progression and you have 5 years of experience, all 1st years, don’t expect a pay increase to “market rates”. You’re still a first year apprentice. The only way to avoid the “rat race” is to recognize what it is and then avoid getting caught up in it. Eventually you end up the guy building the rat maze.
> 
> A third issue is location. Sure we can charge $100-200/hour but our client base are larger industrial and municipal operations for the most part. So in the more rural area that would be the wood products plants, feed mills, meat packing plants, maybe a water or waste water plant here or there, and the occasional manufacturing plant. If you think about what is around you, it can get pretty scattered. On this job I’ve worked on jobs anywhere from major government locations in DC to plants in Southern Georgia but typically it’s the Eastern half of North Carolina plus a good portion of Virginia and South Carolina. It’s a rare day that I do a job in my home town. Each town might have 1-2 customers. So my average road time per day is 2-4 hours. I drive directly from home to the job site. So the time I’m actually working is typically only 4-6 hours per day at most. My work schedule is even more erratic than construction work. So travel is simply part of the job. We get paid for road time. Even before my current job most of my jobs were in mining companies and heavy industrial plants. People don’t like smoke stacks in their back yard. My shortest commute ever in 35+ years was 15 minutes and the longest was about 1-1:4 hours. Plant was in the Philly-NYC corridor...insane housing prices. If I moved the higher pay rate would have just gotten eaten up by the taxes.
> 
> A fourth issue is mastering a skill. You can learn to bend conduit on YouTube. It won’t be neat and even. It will take a long time to do. If you do it all the time and keep trying to do a better job each time eventually you get faster and it looks better. It becomes second nature. That’s when you master a skill. So the JW you are working with mastered rough in’s. You will get faster too and carry some of that skill into other areas. If it’s a skill you can use elsewhere and worth mastering stick with it. I can’t draw a loop in solid core to land it very well. 99% of the wiring I do is stranded. I don’t use solid wire except on my own house. I have no reason to master that skill.
> 
> So in summary if you see skills worth mastering stick with it. If there is no upside, time to move. If you have skills now that pay better elsewhere change jobs. Dong get caught thinking there is any value in loyalty to a business (friendships are another matter). None of the current Dow Jones companies were on the list 30 years ago. The average small business lasts 5 years and the average employee stays in the same job only a couple years. Time the moves. Don’t become someone that looks like they can’t hold down a job but don’t stay with a dead end choice.


That sounds like very good advice. Thank you for posting that!


----------



## hitech

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


where do you live?


----------



## ahanova

awjelectric said:


> Id start you at $25 an hour


Ditto. Move to Washington.


----------



## Nomad860

In my area, Northern Vermont, There is such a shortage of Electricians $75 to $100 per hr. isn't out of the question.


----------



## ahanova

Southeast Power said:


> Put a commercial guy in a house and no way would they pass an inspection, no way.


Yes, that's my experience, as a commercial and residential contractor.


----------



## ahanova

Nomad860 said:


> In my area, Northern Vermont, There is such a shortage of Electricians $75 to $100 per hr. isn't out of the question.


Yes, in WA, too.


----------



## [email protected]

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


Yes your pay is too low, McDonalds pays more than $11 in many places. 7 years ago I was starting apprentices who had a two year diploma at $15 with full benefits and 6% 401k match. Also you should not be working on live parts especially on line side of main. Go to the local IBEW office and apply for their program.


----------



## Veteran Sparky

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


As others have mentioned here...you are 1st year so expect low wage. It is very easy to find standard wage for either non union or union. Nationwide, the Journeyperson rate meaning a 4 year appre


----------



## Joshmg1975

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


----------



## Joshmg1975

I’m not sure where you are working or who your working for. But I got paid more than that when I started in 1999. Just food for thought. I’d say as stated above look for a union apprenticeship or transfer to the nearest local. Your being way underpaid.


----------



## MikeFL

Nomad860 said:


> In my area, Northern Vermont, There is such a shortage of Electricians $75 to $100 per hr. isn't out of the question.


You should advertise from the Carolinas south for summer work. Plenty of people would enjoy doing that for a summer. Find them a cheap motel and they'll be having fun.
Does VT require licensing for employees?


----------



## paulengr

MikeFL said:


> You should advertise from the Carolinas south for summer work. Plenty of people would enjoy doing that for a summer. Find them a cheap motel and they'll be having fun.
> Does VT require licensing for employees?


There are lots of guys that come down here for a “winter construction season”. Construction is year round here. I guess a reverse summer construction season makes sense.


----------



## rketch22

I'm the Operations guy at Cheetah Electric, a residential & commercial service & install company. Here are links to the job descriptions & pay ranges I posted yesterday on Indeed for apprentice & journeyman electricians. As has been stated in the forum, pay varies wildly based on where you are located. We're in northern Idaho. We get all four seasons here, but summers feel short. On the flipside, many outdoorsman consider this to be paradise. I hope this helps as you evaluate your current situation.

Apprentice
Journeyman


----------



## AWW

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour.


It seems a bit low to me. $15 for someone with your background and low experience is what I would expect. BUT so much depends on where you are. Some area's have a higher cost of living thus require a higher hourly wage to break even. So just because one guy make $25/hr doesn't mean he's making more than you; rent and groceries may cost a lot more where he lives.

Decades ago I was offered a permanent job making way more than I was making at the time. First I would of had to sell my house and move several hundred miles away. The homes and cost-of-living were higher there so I figured it "wasn't enough sugar for a nickel".

You are doing the right thing, researching it. Find out what other's are getting paid, and if they are not in your area find out what the price of "milk" is so you'll know if you will be making "more" or not.

Do all of this BEFORE you pull the trigger. Don't burn your bridges behind you, you never know when you'll have to go back asking for your old job back.


----------



## 1600sensible

After being ship electrician in navy,and great lakes ships and msc ships, started in michigan and texas learning trade, only commercial in texas ,and resd and comm in michigan. 1979 started for 5.50. Got to 9$ in texas. went back to michigan and after 10 years got masters in michigan. Took some commercial acounts from old bosses and stayed working for myself and never hired anyone. Took on one larger commmercial project a year and also became part time inspector. Only did a house or two a year to remember why I didnt do all the time. Ended up with about 10-15 retaill and conv store accounts. If i were you, stay with commercial and stay away from union if you want to work close to home,saves marriages and rehabs visits. and I enjoyed going home and using the bathroom. Could have made more with union but didnt care for system. Stay with commercial in a few years you'll be naming price. If you need help ,hire from electric supply houses,good places to make connections.....


----------



## oldwirepuller

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


You are getting shafted without the vasoline


----------



## AWW

DansElectric said:


> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen.


Have you took the test and acquired your Journeyman's Card? If not, buckle down and do that. If you don't get a raise after than, increase your efforts at finding a better paying job.

Your electrical theory is correct but the code does require the grounding system. I've worked with many guys who could out-work me by a mile but I knew theory better than they did. If you can do the job quickly & correctly, being able to defend theory will take second place.

However, knowing theory will help you understand why something is being done a certain way and it will help you a lot when doing trouble calls.

Yeah, get the J-Card in your pocket, then you'll have more leverage.


----------



## oldwirepuller

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


You are getting the shaft


----------



## Davis Electrical

Although I'm sure they're much better today than they used to be, small contractors, particularly electricians, are notoriously cheap S.O.B's. So the answer is, yes, you should always look to improve. But the reality is that you may have to suck it up for awhile to gain experience, provided of course conditions are not intolerable. Because some will go so far as to even endanger your life. Truth. That said, I started for $5 a day. I too often felt I was taken advantage of, especially so when those $5 days started running into 10 or 12 hours. Which happened a lot. But likewise, such conditions motivate. So there's a lesson to be learned in "gumption," too. And unfortunately it can only learn it the hard way.


----------



## MrThrills

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice by doing residential. You were in the military working with electronics _and_ you went to a vocational school. Did you get any kind of security clearances when you were in the military?

Even if you didn't you should start looking at maintenance positions at plants, government buildings, and the like. If you already have experience troubleshooting and/or setting up expensive electronic equipment and aren't afraid of a wiring diagram, you'd probably hit the ground running in a technical role.

And again: if you got a security clearance, that definitely opens doors.

As others have pointed out, the area you live in plays a role. Try to expand your horizons. Be willing to move for a job.

Also, from reading your other posts on the board, I see you're making less than 25% of what you were in the military. Don't let yourself be a sucker. You deserve better; but you might have to switch to a different field of the electrical industry first.


----------



## cutlerhammer

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


DansElectric, just be sure if you leave an employer, that you do not burn any bridges when you leave! It will be very important that you have past employer's job reference when you apply for your state contractor's license, or just having their reference for any applicatiobs you send out in the future. Sometimes one doesn't quit a job, it's just that work has ceased, and the employer has to lay you off. I had one contractor that was a super dude, and had us working around his house trimming bushes and other things just to keep from losing us! Paid us electricians salary to trim bushes, etc. Very few like that in this world! Good luck, and don't jump to another contractor because you were getting smoke blown up your arse!


----------



## cutlerhammer

DansElectric said:


> I'm in a poor part of the country. I'm a lot slower than the journeyman I'm under since he's been doing it for 30 years and I just stated, basically. So I'm not worth $25/hour, but hopefully more than $11/hr. So I'm wiring up subpanels for houses but the journeyman can do it twice as fast and knows all the little tricks I don't. This company really frustrates me though. It's not just the pay either. The one journeyman I'm under has the angelic personality of Mr. Rogers, and the other guy is super grouchy and flies off the handle at everything. There's no middle ground.


Try to keep the word, "basically" out of your vocabulary. It's a fill-in word. Cause, basically, no one gives a crap!


----------



## RobertNZ

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?





DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.





DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


Hi Dan, I'm in NZ. When I did my apprenticeship back in 1970, we started on 50% journeyman"s wage, increasing 10% per year until the end. Apart from that, wages are a negotiation between you and your boss.
Best advice I can offer is to discuss this with your boss. Do your homework prior to the meeting, as you are doing. Look around to see what may be offering. Are you prepared to move, someone on this forum might welcome you with the skills you have. If I had my time again, I would have stayed far away from residential work. For me I have an interest in control systems, mainly to do with motors and water pumps. Look for an industrial apprenticeship if you are interested in automation and control systems. Best of luck - RobertNZ


----------



## Spencerp3

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


Starting wage in AZ is about 15. That is for a guy who can’t remember where the tool is he put away yesterday. I will be starting some big commercial projects. Look me up. P 3 Electric Az.


----------



## Spencerp3

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


We start in AZ at 15 for a guy who can’t remember where he put a tool yesterday. I am starting some big commercial projects. Look me up. P3 Electric.


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## DansElectric

Dang, everyone is making a lot more money than me. I think I need to get out of residential and get into commercial/industrial. That's where the money is at, from what I understand.


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## notcheap

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.





DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


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## notcheap

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


Well ask yourself this question, They pay [email protected] at Dairy Queen, Buckeys, and P Terrys burger joint 
Should I stay or should I go?


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## notcheap

notcheap said:


> Well ask yourself this question, They pay [email protected] at Dairy Queen, Buckeys, and P Terrys burger joint
> Should I stay or should I go?


Also if you value your life stop working in "Hot Panels" your not qualified and probably not wearing protective gear!


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## Lorddrago2007

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


Honestly, you need to go to the local union and ask them to test you for Journeyman Electrician. If you pass the test then you will be making $20.00 plus, with insurance, and retirement. If not, then the most you will make as "Rat Electrician", the highest you will make is $18- 20.00 with no insurance or retirement.


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## Nyjoe66

DansElectric said:


> I can't find the button to edit my post above. But I want to add that I also am doing hot work. I work in live panels and meter bases every week. I wire up outlets and subpanels on my own, unsupervised. The journeyman mounts the panel to the wall and I help him pull wire into it, then I wire it up. I'm not kidding or trolling the forum. I'm not the typical first year apprentice. The military really set me up for success and there were electricians next door to where I worked who even gave me some free instruction before I got out of the service.
> 
> I am proficient with hand tools and I know the code better than the other apprentices in the company. And I don't mean to trash talk them, but they don't know squat about the code. One of them tried to tell me that circuit breakers can't trip unless the building has a ground rod. I tried explaining how circuit breakers work, but they didn't want to listen. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain that and they still don't understand. I said currnet flows from the hot bus through the breaker then the hot wire to the device, then back on the neutral wire to the neutral bus, then back to the transformer on the pole and that completes the circuit. I said if there's a ground fault, the current goes back to the main panel on the bonded conduit or the ground wire, and then back to the transformer on the utility pole because the ground bus and neutral bus are bonded in the main panel. They tried to tell me that won't work unless the building has a ground rod. I gave up after that. It was like explaining colors to a blind man.
> 
> I am afraid that I am being taken advantage of at this company. I work hard, show up early every day, sometimes I don't take a lunch break, and usually if I have to go get a tool for someone, I run to get it. I do some heavy lifting and I am doing some of the work that no one else wants to do. The other apprentices aren't personable or likeable. Again, I'm not trying to trash talk them, but they're not too friendly to me. I don't expect everyone to be buddy-buddy with me, but there is no camaraderie like what I had in the military. The other apprentices I work with usually don't crack a smile the whole day. Usually when I ask a reasonable question, I get a snarky, condescending reply or they just glare at me. I don't understand that. Most of the journeymen in the company are not that way at all. It's like two different worlds of people in the same company. A strange place to work, I think.
> 
> I feel like a sucker sometimes. $11/hour seems a bit low. I was driving to a job and I saw advertisements for fast food jobs that paid $10/hour. And they aren't working in live panels. Hmmm.....if I don't get a pay raise after my 90 day review, I might start looking for another job.


Hi,
I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in detail but it would be too much to say in a message. If you would like to talk about it further why don’t you email me and we can exchange numbers and talk about it more on the phone. [email protected]. I think you’re deserving of more than you are getting,
I’m an Electrical Contractor and I’m now a Master Electrical Inspector with 38 years experience.


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## DansElectric

I appreciate that, NYJoe. I'm going to re-apply at the other company and see if they can still take me on board.


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## Monospark

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


Yes! Know your worth. I have a very similar background coming out of the Air Force as an avionics specialist and landed a job at 24/hr and got a dollar raise after 1 year. Someone with your skill set should be looking for 20 to 25 an hour.


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## Matt Hermanson

DansElectric said:


> Hello all,
> 
> If you have time, I would appreciate your advice. I don't know if the wage I am being paid is too low. I am in a non-union company and I make $11/hour. I do 75% residential and 25% commercial work. There is no opportunity for overtime. I graduated from an electrician vo-tech school recently and I just started my first year as an electrician apprentice. I was in the military as an electronics technician for six years. I know electrical theory as well as anyone, but I don't have as much experience as they do in this particular trade yet. I bought all my own tools, except of course the really big tools such as the benders we use. We have company vans that we drive to all the job sites. It's a requirement that we use the vans instead of our personal vehicles. Should I be looking for another job or asking for a raise soon?


Depends upon where you are located. In Iowa, you would have started higher at almost every electrical contractor or fast food restaurant. If you are in the southeast USA, that pay sounds about correct.


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