# Was this ever to code



## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

I have a 100+yo house.Was wired with Knob nTube,the existing wiring was in very good shape.Very few addons ie splices into existing K&T.1 recp 1 light per room.I removed it all. I am now redoing a bath,found this in a wall.Were splices in a wallspce ever ToCode.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I don't believe that install was ever compliant.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

reddog552 said:


> I have a 100+yo house.Was wired with Knob nTube,the existing wiring was in very good shape.Very few addons ie splices into existing K&T.1 recp 1 light per room.I removed it all. I am now redoing a bath,found this in a wall.Were splices in a wallspce ever ToCode.


Back then , the NEC was smaller than a readers digest , so I'm sure something like a buried , free air splice behind a wall , wasn't even addressed ? Legal or not , if the splice was done properly , it would last forever ! I still think knob and tube is generally safer than aluminum branch any day !


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes. That was legal


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Prob if it was soldered...


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*Splice in wall*

This Splce in wall was sodered and rapped in about 2Yds of tape. I have gutted or revamped 30+ Knob &Tube jobs. Ive found Quite a few that I thought were very safely done.K&T in my opinion was a very good system.No grounds,But alot safer than Al.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

reddog552 said:


> This Splce in wall was sodered and rapped in about 2Yds of tape. I have gutted or revamped 30+ Knob &Tube jobs. Ive found Quite a few that I thought were very safely done.K&T in my opinion was a very good system.No grounds,But alot safer than Al.


Much safer than a BX system..


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## madrone48 (Aug 15, 2012)

My house, same era, was originally done the very same way. Splices were all still in very good condition when I removed them.


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## Mike Little (Dec 31, 2012)

The biggest problem I've seen with K&T is heat or dry-rot issues. Especially in ceiling boxes where a couple of 100W bulbs have cooked the insulation over the years.

And also the 30A fuse on 14WG wire.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Mike Little said:


> The biggest problem I've seen with K&T is heat or dry-rot issues. Especially in ceiling boxes where a couple of 100W bulbs have cooked the insulation over the years.
> 
> And also the 30A fuse on 14WG wire.


In outer walls it seems that the blow in insulation and aluminum siding over clapboard plays havoc with it.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

My house is a 1943 prefab & while all the old NM from then was disconnected years ago, when renovations happen, & pull out old wiring it's amazing on how many runs were spliced w/ friction tape w/o the benefit of boxes. I attribute that to wartime material shortages & I do not think it was intended to last beyond the duration of the war.


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## RICK BOYD (Mar 10, 2008)

*1924 code*

I think it WAS in 1924 ,, this from the text book for 
The International Correspondence Schools
please note electrical was just one chapter 
in a book that was one of a 14 volume set

I remember when International Correspondence Schools advertised in the back of Pop Science, Pop Mechanics, and the like. 
they were bought out by Thomson Prometric who is still around


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Common K&T splices.


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## sos electrical servi (Nov 26, 2012)

madrone48 said:


> My house, same era, was originally done the very same way. Splices were all still in very good condition when I removed them.


 yeah i see then every now and then it amazing how good the work was back then they took their time to make those conections


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

rewired my old house to bring it up to code with a new install of everything.
removed all old wire runs from a previous rewire
under a crawl space i found (quite by accident) post and bare conductor buss
it was disconnected at both ends but when i went to remove it i got nailed hard.
alongside a chimney base was a live feed coming out of a j-box.
many j boxes had capped live wires in them and and filled with plaster
before the rewiring started i kept hearing arcing noise on my phone every time the weather was damp.
all in all i found 8 j-boxes plastered in like that.

I wanted to find the twit who did that and hang him by the balls and use him as a pinata:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

gnuuser said:


> ...All in all i found 8 j-boxes plastered in like that....


 Saw that doing old houses in Jersey: Boxes stuffed with old newspaper and plastered right over.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I have HO ask me all the time if they can mud over a box or install a cabinet in front of it. I tell them I can install a blank cover on it, but I can't tell you what to do after I leave.
As Ron White would say, you can't fix stupid.


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## wireman64 (Feb 2, 2012)

Big John said:


> Saw that doing old houses in Jersey: Boxes stuffed with old newspaper and plastered right over.


Ran across that quite a bit, the first time by accident i had a new 4" ceiling cut in box in hand ready to install after measuring dead center of the room went to cut and hit a box filled with paper and plaster , quick easy job !


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## jmellc (Feb 25, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Much safer than a BX system..


No question on that. I have seldom seen BX that survived any test of time. I try to replace it whenever I can. Any that I've had to rework is a major pain. Almost any time I break 6 inches of jacket, it starts fraying conductor insulation. I have to pull 1/2 inch of wire out & tape it. What a pain. 

Does anyone have an accurate timeline on BX? I'm thinking about the mid 1930's to the early 60's, going by the houses I have seen with it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

iirc, the evolution of K&T saw BX debute next, evident by all the buried splices that married the two wiring methods.....~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

It was never code to splice from K&T to romex or BX, at least according to my 1917 Hawkins Electrical Guide. But I guarantee that if you follow the splicing methods detailed in post #12, step *16* on the attached pic, you could splice 10-4 MC under a foot of mud on a river bottom and not have a problem out of it:laughing: 

It's evident that these ancient K&T-style splices, when done correctly, and no matter the wiring method (K&T, romex, BX, SE, etc.), will last until someone pulls them out.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Mike Little said:


> The biggest problem I've seen with K&T is heat or dry-rot issues. Especially in ceiling boxes where a couple of 100W bulbs have cooked the insulation over the years.
> 
> And also the 30A fuse on 14WG wire.


Thus the invention of fustats and adapters.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

InPhase277 said:


> It was never code to splice from K&T to romex or BX, at least according to my 1917 Hawkins Electrical Guide. But I guarantee that if you follow the splicing methods detailed in post #12, step *16* on the attached pic, you could splice 10-4 MC under a foot of mud on a river bottom and not have a problem out of it:laughing:
> 
> It's evident that these ancient K&T-style splices, when done correctly, and no matter the wiring method (K&T, romex, BX, SE, etc.), will last until someone pulls them out.


Westinghouse splice?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

jmellc said:


> No question on that. I have seldom seen BX that survived any test of time. I try to replace it whenever I can. Any that I've had to rework is a major pain. Almost any time I break 6 inches of jacket, it starts fraying conductor insulation. I have to pull 1/2 inch of wire out & tape it. What a pain.
> 
> Does anyone have an accurate timeline on BX? I'm thinking about the mid 1930's to the early 60's, going by the houses I have seen with it.


Mid to later 20's in the area where I grew up and lived.
I worked on a lot of homes wired in the early days of electrification. The only evidence of insulation deterioration was in ceiling boxes with flush mounted overlamped fixtures. One old home I worked in had the old fashioned chain pendant fixtures, which I repaired. Dropping the canopies, I found the BX feeders to be as good and safe as the day they were installed. :thumbsup:


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## LegacyofTroy (Feb 14, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> Westinghouse splice?



I like the western union? If your good then a torsade,


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> Westinghouse splice?


If you did that exact twist, and then tried to install a wire nut, it would be a total mess....


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> If you did that exact twist, and then tried to install a wire nut, it would be a total mess....


You'd probably fine. Even though they reversed the twist, it's soldered solid now. The teeth in the marrette will cut where they need to.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

My first fire investigation was a cold solder joint in K&T wiring. It took from 1911 until 1998 to set the structure on fire.

In Canada AC90 is still called BX.

There were special adaptors for making splices of NMD to K&T. They looked a little like a weatherhead with a cable clamp and were designed for 14/2 and 12/2. You abandoned any bond wire and a box was not required.

Today any splice to K&T must be done in a box but that was not the case for many years. Lots of push button switches with no box, pendant light drops with no box. Outlets all seemed to have boxes?


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Mshea said:


> My first fire investigation was a cold solder joint in K&T wiring. It took from 1911 until 1998 to set the structure on fire.
> 
> In Canada AC90 is still called BX.
> 
> ...


Here's a couple I've found. BX out of fuse panel with one of these on the end and solder splices to k&t usually. Also seen them on transitions to BX for receptacles


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