# AFCI or NOT



## Shawn23 (Jan 5, 2011)

Is anyone familiar with when you have to add AFCI breakers to a panel?
Here is my situation, the home was built in the early 70s in south florida. Im installing a new service and changing out the inside panel to get it out of the bathroom closet. MUST I now use AFCIs by code or is this based on my local AHJ or is it based on a percentage of the remodel?
Thanks for any help.
It is a permitted job.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I could do that here with no afci's, but that changes from location to location.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

what McClary said Shawn......~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shawn23 said:


> Is anyone familiar with when you have to add AFCI breakers to a panel?
> Here is my situation, the home was built in the early 70s in south florida. Im installing a new service and changing out the inside panel to get it out of the bathroom closet. MUST I now use AFCIs by code or is this based on my local AHJ or is it based on a percentage of the remodel?
> Thanks for any help.
> It is a permitted job.


That really depends on your AHJ,,,I would say no you do not need them,But if you are adding new circuits then 210.12 will come into play.



210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.
Informational Note No. 1: For information on types of
arc-fault circuit interrupters, see UL 1699-1999, Standard
for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
Informational Note No. 2: See 11.6.3(5) of NFPA 72-
2010, National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, for information
related to secondary power supply requirements for
smoke alarms installed in dwelling units.
Informational Note No. 3: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B)
for power-supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
Exception No. 1: If RMC, IMC, EMT, Type MC, or steel
armored Type AC cables meeting the requirements of
250.118 and metal outlet and junction boxes are installed
for the portion of the branch circuit between the branchcircuit
overcurrent device and the first outlet, it shall be
permitted to install an outlet branch-circuit type AFCI at
the first outlet to provide protection for the remaining portion
of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 2: Where a listed metal or nonmetallic conduit
or tubing is encased in not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete for the portion of the branch circuit between the
branch-circuit overcurrent device and the first outlet, it
shall be permitted to install an outlet branch-circuit type
AFCI at the first outlet to provide protection for the remaining
portion of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 3: Where an individual branch circuit to a
fire alarm system installed in accordance with 760.41(B) or
760.121(B) is installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steelsheathed
cable, Type AC or Type MC, meeting the requirements
of 250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes,
AFCI protection shall be permitted to be omitted.
(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.


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## Shawn23 (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks guys. I dont feel as if I have to but we all know how that goes. I will try it without them and if the AHJ fails me due to that what big deal is a reinspection fee considering all the afci i will have to add.
We are not adding any new circuits so I can pray for the best.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

Shawn23 said:


> Thanks guys. I dont feel as if I have to but we all know how that goes. I will try it without them and if the AHJ fails me due to that what big deal is a reinspection fee considering all the afci i will have to add.
> We are not adding any new circuits so I can pray for the best.


Make sure the panels you use have enough spaces in case you have to use arc faults.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shawn23 said:


> Thanks guys. I dont feel as if I have to but we all know how that goes. I will try it without them and if the AHJ fails me due to that what big deal is a reinspection fee considering all the afci i will have to add.
> We are not adding any new circuits so I can pray for the best.


Make sure you at least call the AHJ so that you are clear on what they require because that could add $100's to your job cost after if they do require them to be installed.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Are you on the 2011 code?
If so, if you are relocating the panel, it is my opinion that 210.12(B) requires AFCI protection for the branch circuits. 


> *
> (B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling Units.​*​​​​In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
> (1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
> (2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit​


​


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here if you have to add any wire to reach the new breakers then arcfaults are needed. Even if the added wire is inside the new panel.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

backstay said:


> Here if you have to add any wire to reach the new breakers then arcfaults are needed. Even if the added wire is inside the new panel.


That sucks for you.


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## Shawn23 (Jan 5, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Are you on the 2011 code?
> If so, if you are relocating the panel, it is my opinion that 210.12(B) requires AFCI protection for the branch circuits.
> [/left]
> [/size][/font][/size][/font]


 
2008 code. Would flipping it 180 degrees be considered relocating? It will be mounted in the same holes just with the opening in the living room instead of the bathroom closet. Customer does not want to pay to relocate it because it is just a rental.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> That sucks for you.


More money, more profit!


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I do it here in central florida. We just flip the panels and all is fine. Your using the same equip. without addition so it shouldn't be an issue.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Shawn23 said:


> 2008 code. Would flipping it 180 degrees be considered relocating? It will be mounted in the same holes just with the opening in the living room instead of the bathroom closet. Customer does not want to pay to relocate it because it is just a rental.


 Only your AHJ can answer that.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Are you on the 2011 code?
> If so, if you are relocating the panel, it is my opinion that 210.12(B) requires AFCI protection for the branch circuits.
> [/left]
> [/size][/font][/size][/font]


 
What if the existing wiring is all MWBC's, they wont work !


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

*Call!!!!!*

The sooner you find that out the better. Just like Harry said, if someone wants a quote for an upgrade and you don't include that into your figures when in fact it is required..........well, hard to feel bad for ya'.......


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

dronai said:


> What if the existing wiring is all MWBC's, they wont work !


 The code does not have exceptions for that and there is at least one manufacturer that has an AFCI breaker for multiwire circuits.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The code does not have exceptions for that and there is at least one manufacturer that has an AFCI breaker for multiwire circuits.


 
Yeah Don, combo's wouldn't work with MWBC's, but what is the breaker you speak of?


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

dronai said:


> What if the existing wiring is all MWBC's, they wont work !


2 pole AFCI breaker will work -- Expensive as hell ,but works


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