# I don't understand.



## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

chit also carries pathogens.


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## rankin (Apr 14, 2015)

But chit doesn't fry your insides and make your heart fibrillate. Poorly-plumbed chit and pipejobs that aren't up to code also don't start fires.

And what do you mean by low-balling bids? I'm just getting into the field, and every source I've read says many skilled trades (with the exception of machinists) have a large current and projected future demand.

You'd think the tradesmen would have the advantage in negotiating pay. Is there a lot of competition or something?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

cl219um said:


> Why every profession gets to name their price, but skilled trades are always trying to low ball bids to get work. And another thing. Why do plumbers make more than us. We control the lightning. Our trade is basically just getting started. Technology is getting better, and our trade is getting more complex in every aspect. Just wondering why chit flows downhill commands better wages.


Who cares? I make whatI make which for my employees is equal too or greater than plumbers. We are in construction we bid jobs, engineers bid work, many large companies bid work. Nasa takes the lowest bidder to build rockets.

Life is what it is accept it and move on worrying about it will only give you angst. 

Or change careers?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

rankin said:


> But chit doesn't fry your insides and make your heart fibrillate. Poorly-plumbed chit and pipejobs that aren't up to code also don't start fires.
> 
> And what do you mean by low-balling bids? I'm just getting into the field, and every source I've read says many skilled trades (with the exception of machinists) have a large current and projected future demand.
> 
> You'd think the tradesmen would have the advantage in negotiating pay. Is there a lot of competition or something?


You would think so. Seems that every time we go through negotiations we lose a bit more. We will lose the backbone of our skilled workforce in retirement, and contractors don't seem to want to give labor anything to keep the younger group interested in staying.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

There are two basic forces at work.

First - people no longer respect the trades. College or nothing. Any ******* monkey or mexican can do it.

Second - we allowed rich people to convince us to destroy the very agencies that would help us.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> Who cares? I make whatI make which for my employees is equal too or greater than plumbers. We are in construction we bid jobs, engineers bid work, many large companies bid work. Nasa takes the lowest bidder to build rockets.
> 
> Life is what it is accept it and move on worrying about it will only give you angst.
> 
> Or change careers?


Right up with insurance companies getting bids for the lowest priced doctors and surgeons to work on us.:thumbup:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> There are two basic forces at work.
> 
> First - people no longer respect the trades. College or nothing. Any ******* monkey or mexican can do it.
> 
> Second - we allowed rich people to convince us to destroy the very agencies that would help us.


The Mexican workforce in America should not be sold short. Many will out work any one of us to stay in America.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> The Mexican workforce in America should not be sold short. Many will out work any one of us to stay in America.


I'm not selling them short. 

What I am saying is your average person believes all the trades can be done by mexican day laborers, so they look at us as mexican day laborers.

Who wants to pay mexican day laborers more than $100 a day plus a sandwich?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

eejack said:


> I'm not selling them short.
> 
> What I am saying is your average person believes all the trades can be done by mexican day laborers, so they look at us as mexican day laborers.
> 
> Who wants to pay mexican day laborers more than $100 a day plus a sandwich?


They should pay. Even landscaping used to pay well. It's very physically demanding. Blue collar uprising is what needs to happen. My check doesn't go anywhere near as far as it used to. Wish my children were as well off as I was growing up. Not saying my parents didn't live paycheck to paycheck, but overtime always was plentiful for who ever wanted it. When I got into the trade in the early 90's it was everywhere. Now it's a secret when it's offered.only for a couple chosen by god:laughing: this trade is in its infancy, and we are selling out.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

cl219um said:


> Why every profession gets to name their price, but skilled trades are always trying to low ball bids to get work. And another thing. Why do plumbers make more than us. We control the lightning. Our trade is basically just getting started. Technology is getting better, and our trade is getting more complex in every aspect. Just wondering why chit flows downhill commands better wages.


I don't pretend to completely understand it either but as Brian said......I don't worry too much about it because I enjoy sanity. I refuse to worry about things like that anymore and I certainly don't lose sleep over it:no:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Bad Electrician said:


> Who cares? I make whatI make which for my employees is equal too or greater than plumbers. We are in construction we bid jobs, engineers bid work, many large companies bid work. Nasa takes the lowest bidder to build rockets.
> 
> Life is what it is accept it and move on worrying about it will only give you angst.
> 
> Or change careers?


I'm just worried we are killing ourselves. I am not angry, but concerned. Do service work at places we were outbid and see the results.corners cut,cause something left out of bid. Who pays? The customer does. Why? Wrong takeoffs for a part of, and now the contractor pushes the foreman to slap it in as fast as they can. Many jobs are awarded because something got missed.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't know. Electricians seem to do pretty well. Last week I was reading a thread on here where everyone was basically saying they make $30 - $45 in the pocket.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

eejack said:


> There are two basic forces at work.
> 
> First - people no longer respect the trades. College or nothing. Any ******* monkey or mexican can do it.
> 
> Second - *we allowed rich people to convince us to destroy the very agencies that would help us.*



What agencies are those?


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 8, 2014)

Please let's not get into a Republican Democrat debate here. I hear enough of that on Facebook.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

cl219um said:


> Why every profession gets to name their price, but skilled trades are always trying to low ball bids to get work. And another thing. Why do plumbers make more than us. We control the lightning. Our trade is basically just getting started. Technology is getting better, and our trade is getting more complex in every aspect. Just wondering why chit flows downhill commands better wages.



when you buy stock, and sell it, you sell it at the market rate.

when you buy a lobster, you buy it at market rate.

when you buy or sell a house, you do so at the market rate.

when you answer a request for bid, you give them a market rate.

the determining factor for market rate, is capitalism. That is what drives the price. Except when the government is corrupted to intervene and alter the driving forces behind the system, the rate is determined generally by supply and demand. Everyone has their own idea about what is a good rate for them, and that will drive the price to where it is at the moment. If you can sell your customer on something other than price, you will be doing yourself a favor.

that's it, in a nutshell.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Dillinger4 said:


> I don't know. Electricians seem to do pretty well. Last week I was reading a thread on here where everyone was basically saying they make $30 - $45 in the pocket.


Last time I made 40$ an hour was in an outside local. Didn't have near the stress of what I have doing inside electrical. Must be the fresh air keeping my mind clear. Or did inside electricians completely sell themselves out?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

wildleg said:


> when you buy stock, and sell it, you sell it at the market rate.
> 
> when you buy a lobster, you buy it at market rate.
> 
> ...


When I buy gas at the station I don't check the price they paid for a barrel of oil to refine it on that very day. The prices don't seem to relate whatsoever. If the price drops at one gas stations neighbor to another, that's when the other stations prices go down. They create a war, until they are making pennies on a dollar. That's when the little guy goes under. You know. The full serve station that checks the air in your tires. Washes your windows. Checks your oil level. The personality that actually cares. This country is becoming a friggin machine. No personality slave to the grind. Get the job done and get out. I for one am not on board.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Please let's not get into a Republican Democrat debate here. I hear enough of that on Facebook.


Here's a tip----stop that facebook thing.....:jester::laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> Here's a tip----stop that facebook thing.....:jester::laughing:


That's right.....come here for all your daily drama.:laughing:


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 8, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Here's a tip----stop that facebook thing.....:jester::laughing:


Hopefully being picked up by my local will remedy my addiction. :laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> That's right.....come here for all your daily drama.:laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Hopefully being picked up by my local will remedy my addiction. :laughing:


:laughing::laughing:

Good luck!......:thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> What agencies are those?


Take your pick...big government like NLB, EPA, OSHA or private like unions or small government like state labor boards and inspection agencies.

Everyday we are being convinced that these things are bad for us yet the more we beat on them the worse off we are.

I realize you will disagree with this but there are no reasonable arguments against much of what these agencies are trying to do unless you are a business owner trying to squeeze more money out of your business.

While I have no issue with folks making money, I do take issue with having other folks suffering to do so.

We would all be making more right now if we were not so short sighted.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

wildleg said:


> the determining factor for market rate, is capitalism. That is what drives the price. Except when the government is corrupted to intervene and alter the driving forces behind the system, the rate is determined generally by supply and demand.


And yet when the protections we need are removed ( government corrupted to intervene on the side of the money makers ) we as a society make less and suffer more.

Remove banking regulations and we get 2008 as a quick example.

Pure capitalism doesn't work - businesses need government subsidies ( infrastructure, education ) to survive yet do not want guidelines ( regulatory agencies ) and certainly do not want to pay for it.

We as a society require certain protections from potential hazards, like foreign invasion ( military ), natural disasters ( fema ), man made disasters ( osha ) and financial ( lots ) yet we constantly insist that we don't want to pay for it.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

:laughing:


Dillinger4 said:


> Please let's not get into a Republican Democrat debate here. I hear enough of that on Facebook.


I see you are knew here, :laughing: :whistling2: :jester:

It always ends up R's vs D's, rich vs poor, union vs non union, etc. 

We seem to love to argue ... uh, .... I mean debate/discuss.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Over the years, I've heard quite a few people quote and praise Adam Smith and his writings about capitalism. What I've never heard anyone state about Adam Smith is


> It shows Smith's belief that when an individual pursues his self-interest, he indirectly promotes the good of society. Self-interested competition in the free market, he argued, would tend to benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an incentive for a wide variety of goods and services. Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and warned of their "conspiracy against the public or in some other contrivance to raise prices".[81] Again and again, *Smith warned of the collusive nature of business interests, which may form cabals or monopolies, fixing the highest price "which can be squeezed out of the buyers"*.[82] *Smith also warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and industry against consumers, with the former scheming to influence politics and legislation*. Smith states that the interest of manufacturers and merchants "...in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

cl219um said:


> They should pay. Even landscaping used to pay well. It's very physically demanding. Blue collar uprising is what needs to happen. My check doesn't go anywhere near as far as it used to. Wish my children were as well off as I was growing up. Not saying my parents didn't live paycheck to paycheck, but overtime always was plentiful for who ever wanted it. When I got into the trade in the early 90's it was everywhere. Now it's a secret when it's offered.only for a couple chosen by god:laughing: this trade is in its infancy, and we are selling out.


Protest? I'm in! I'll bring the torches and the pitchforks. :tank:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

cl219um said:


> The Mexican workforce in America should not be sold short. Many will out work any one of us to stay in America.


Only cause they're slave labor. If they are so productive, how come they haven't built up their own country? If i could go to a country and make 10-20times my salary here, I would jump thru hoops too.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

cl219um said:


> They should pay. Even landscaping used to pay well. It's very physically demanding. Blue collar uprising is what needs to happen. My check doesn't go anywhere near as far as it used to. Wish my children were as well off as I was growing up. Not saying my parents didn't live paycheck to paycheck, but overtime always was plentiful for who ever wanted it. When I got into the trade in the early 90's it was everywhere. Now it's a secret when it's offered.only for a couple chosen by god:laughing: this trade is in its infancy, and we are selling out.



I agree that labor rates are down, and I agree that it has been very discouraging to see that slide for the last 25 years; but it's also hard to point the finger in any particular direction because there are so many directions to which you could point.

However, I cannot stress enough how incredibly flawed is that your notion that overtime is some kind of indicator of healthy wages. Rampant overtime is usually an indicator of waste, bad management, poor contracting, poor choices and often (where it applies) very bad government. Now, clearly, there are exceptions to that statement, but as a general principle it is overwhelmingly accurate.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Why is this in the union section? Should it not be in the business section?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

cl219um said:


> *Why every profession gets to name their price, but skilled trades are always trying to low ball bids to get work. And another thing. Why do plumbers make more than us.* We control the lightning. Our trade is basically just getting started. Technology is getting better, and our trade is getting more complex in every aspect. Just wondering why chit flows downhill commands better wages.


The pros do name their price. 

Plumbers get paid well, because I suspect they don't really want the chit work, so they bid high. All of them. 

:laughing:

Borgi


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

We are labor. It requires no college education or MBA, with almost no barriers to entry. Non english speaking mexicans can do our jobs and continue to crash our borders, but they can't take the jobs of accountants, lawyers, and other professions that require degrees. Its pretty simple.


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