# Seasonal helpers... ever become full time guys?



## Woot (Apr 15, 2018)

Asked a buddy in a local union a few times, to let me know if his company was ever hiring. Last time i asked he said they are hiring seasonal guys. Asked what that means and he just that... ur guarenteed nothing but some part time work. But he said it could get your foot in the door but he also said, dont quit your job over it. So are any seasonal guys ever hired for more then part time on call work?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Everybody's seasonal. Nobody's got a permanent job in this trade. Especially union guys. And union shops usually call the hall for more help, if and when they need it.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

joebanana said:


> Everybody's seasonal. Nobody's got a permanent job in this trade. Especially union guys. And union shops usually call the hall for more help, if and when they need it.


They have Union EC's with billboards advertising for Jman up North of you, as well as advertisements on CL, Indeed, etc. That was around the beginning of summer, not sure if they are still running them, but even the Union is struggling to fill ranks, so the EC's are free to look anywhere they want if the calls go unanswered.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switched said:


> They have Union EC's with billboards advertising for Jman up North of you, as well as advertisements on CL, Indeed, etc. That was around the beginning of summer, not sure if they are still running them, but even the Union is struggling to fill ranks, so the EC's are free to look anywhere they want if the calls go unanswered.


You know you've hit rock bottom when you're looking for "skilled labor" on Craig's List. Next stop Home Depot parking lot. We've got plenty of J-men on the books waiting for work, not many calls go unanswered. We've even had other locals putting calls on our jobs dispatch.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Switched said:


> joebanana said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody's seasonal. Nobody's got a permanent job in this trade. Especially union guys. And union shops usually call the hall for more help, if and when they need it.
> ...


So if the hall cnt fill the hall the contractor can find guys of the street?

And if so does he have to pay the wrker off the street the union rate


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

** if the hall cnt fill the spots. 
The contractor can find labor of the street.

And if so does he have to pay union wage or is the rate negotiated between the wrker and contractor


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> ** if the hall cnt fill the spots.
> The contractor can find labor of the street.
> 
> And if so does he have to pay union wage or is the rate negotiated between the wrker and contractor


I am not entirely sure, but I think they get the negotiated pay package.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Switched said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > ** if the hall cnt fill the spots.
> ...


Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .

Have you ever seen this happen 
I’m shure the union would do anything to prevent the contractor from hiring guys of Craig’s list .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> So if the hall cnt fill the hall the contractor can find guys of the street?
> 
> And if so does he have to pay the wrker off the street the union rate


Yes!

And YES!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .
> 
> Have you ever seen this happen
> I’m shure the union would do anything to prevent the contractor from hiring guys of Craig’s list .


I got hired off the street for a controls job and tested into a journeymen's position in the local after being hired.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .
> ...


Really wow I never seen that that
What year


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Switchgear277 said:


> Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .
> 
> Have you ever seen this happen
> *I’m shure the union would do anything to prevent the contractor from hiring guys of Craig’s list* .


This isn't the case when things are booming. Positions become extremely difficult to fill in certain locations and certain economies. 

Doing everything they could would mean filling more apprenticeship positions more often, so that you have more journeyman. It would mean opening the doors to more non-union guys that would like to join.

Some unions do a good job of this, I think Brian has mentioned his being one of them. Some do horrible jobs of this, and I can think of several in Nor Cal that would fit that bill. 

Sometimes people worry too much about when the bottom drops out, and then they have a glut of guys on the books, so people stay longer and longer on the books. They should be more worried about the age of the existing membership, the difficulty in getting younger people to join an apprenticeship, etc....

Lot's of stuff happens and is legal for signatory contractors to do, whether it happens a lot or in your area is another argument.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switchgear277 said:


> So if the hall cnt fill the hall the contractor can find guys of the street?
> 
> And if so does he have to pay the wrker off the street the union rate


 They'll put out the call to our sister local, or other locals. Or start calling people on book 1 and ask if they want it. (We used to have a 3 strikes policy, you could turn down 2 calls, and on the third one you go to the back of the book, but they ended that a couple of years ago). Or, they go to book 2.
If, and it's a big if, the contractor hires someone off the street, they'll more than likely be offered CW/CE pay, have to sign up with the local, and have to pay dues.
Depending on the area, calls rarely, if ever, go unfilled. I've never seen it at my local.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Switchgear277 said:


> Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .
> 
> Have you ever seen this happen
> I’m shure the union would do anything to prevent the contractor from hiring guys of Craig’s list .


 They don't. They get the CW/CE rate. And a chance to sign up for an apprenticeship after so many hours.
I've never seen it happen an my local.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

From the sample agreement:

Section 4.06. If the registration list is exhausted and the Local Union is unable to refer applicants for employment to the Employer within 48 hours from the time of receiving the Employer's request, Saturdays, Sundays and holidays excepted, the Employer shall be free to secure applicants without using the Referral Procedure but such applicants, if hired, shall have the status of "temporary employees".

Section 4.07. The Employer shall notify the Business Manager promptly of the names and Social Security numbers of such "temporary employees" and shall replace such "temporary employees" as soon as registered applicants for employment are available under the Referral Procedure.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm probably not far off making this statement. Half of the CE/CW guys going through the program right now were hired through one signatory contractor that couldn't get guys from the hall. 

So they interviewed new talent. If they liked them, they got the hall to sign them up. The hall tests them. Even if they get a 100 on the test, they still have to do all the school. Their pay is based on test scores, and they become a CE or one of the CW rates. Their CE/CW classification is for pay and benifits only. They all have to do three years CW classes and after they can change over to third year "A". 

Some will stick it out others will move on. It's the way it is. 

There was a time this summer where calls for JIW went unfulfilled for a while. The guys hired as CE/CW were to fill small works jobs. If you needed a JIW you had to wait a week or so. You can't use CE/CW on prevailing wage jobs. There is also a cap on the contract amount where you can't use CE/CW.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

switchgear277 said:


> really wow i never seen that that
> what year


1986


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> > really wow i never seen that that
> ...


 nice the year I was born


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> nice the year I was born


Same year as my oldest daughter, it was a good year.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

White Paper Member, book 3 or 4


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Switchgear277 said:


> Makes me wonder Bc how could they get the package if they were never in an apprentiship program .
> 
> Have you ever seen this happen
> I’m shure the union would do anything to prevent the contractor from hiring guys of Craig’s list .


What to heck does completing an apprenticeship program have to do with paying a working person a working wage?

If you hire off the streets and get the worker into the union that is a win for the local, one less open shop worker for open shops to hire.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by switchgear277 View Post
> really wow i never seen that that
> what year



1976, 1977, 1978.......to present, with the exception of a few lean years (and maybe before 1976)


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

"If you hire off the streets and get the worker into the union that is a win for the local, one less open shop worker for open shops to hire." 



I disagree with this statement, organize the top tier talent, not the guy from Craig's list chosen by the contractor instead of chosen by us. The IO may want any heartbeat, I want to work with better than that. The selection process at the hall gives a better chance at that than the contractor choosing.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Many union workers I have worked with who started non union were the best workers on the job, especially their work ethic and attendance. 

Many union workers I have worked with who only worked union have terrible work ethic, entitlement issues and are not dependable.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Everybody's seasonal. Nobody's got a permanent job in this trade. Especially union guys. And union shops usually call the hall for more help, if and when they need it.


My guys are all permanent.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Taconite said:


> "If you hire off the streets and get the worker into the union that is a win for the local, one less open shop worker for open shops to hire."
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with this statement, organize the top tier talent, not the guy from Craig's list chosen by the contractor instead of chosen by us. The IO may want any heartbeat, I want to work with better than that. The selection process at the hall gives a better chance at that than the contractor choosing.


Of course, everyone wants the best but the best are well compensated in open shops in our area, I have spent 34 years wooing open shop men to fill the void. Our local works hard to get the best from open shops to fill calls.

We have had full employment for years, while the rest of the nation was scrounging for work, we are scrounging for men. Some of the men we got off the streets are better than the bench warmers (when there is full employment) the hall can furnish. And our hall has many excellent electricians but when you get to the bottom of the barrel any warm body that wants to work looks good. And now that there is good employment nationwide travellers are staying home.

Our local has had this philosophy for years and is a growing local how is your local doing?


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

Work is good,has been for a while. Organizing has been a double edged sword, we have more work and more members. We have fewer at the contract votes and fewer at the meetings. The local has less influence on the job site than in the past. 



I have no idea what my new co-workers quals are, what he knows or what his idea of safe work is any more. I am disappointed many times when I have to teach basic skills and safety practices to a "journeyman". Sure, we all continue to learn and need to be open to new ideas, new being the key word.



Apprenticeship has value, that value is not negated when the new hire simply has a state license. Applicants need to be vetted, the contractor has neither the motivation, nor the long term commitment to the membership to accomplish that vetting.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> My guys are all permanent.


Then you're the rare exception. Most contractors can't afford to pay guys to stand around, and the shop can only be swept so many times when it's slow, and you're waiting for jobs to start. I hope your guys appreciate it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Taconite said:


> Work is good,has been for a while. Organizing has been a double edged sword, we have more work and more members. We have fewer at the contract votes and fewer at the meetings. The local has less influence on the job site than in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And if you came to work for me I'd have to teach you a lot I doubt you know should I be disappointed in you? Or as a good DECENT person do you (or me) step up and teach. Me I teach others, in lieu of taking a high and mighty better than them approach. 

So typical of poor members that hurt the union with the I am better than you.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

So nice of you to decide who is a poor member, judging me judgmental, how ironic. Calling people bench warmers? How kind of you to let us know how caring you are. 



Work for you pal? I don't think so, you must be kinda a big deal huh? What with you knowing so much and all, and having so much to teach me, oh boy. 



You been talked down to a bunch to get such a chip on your shoulder?


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Everybodys getting all butthurt this year! Lol

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Taconite said:


> So nice of you to decide who is a poor member, judging me judgmental, how ironic. Calling people bench warmers? How kind of you to let us know how caring you are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not at all but you stated you do not want to teach others that are JWs that is a foolish arrogant statement and I stand by my comment that I doubt you could come to work for my company and know what it takes to complete job one. Not because you are stupid but because you most likely have not been exposed to the type of work I do. All my employees teach new employees because that is what DECENT people do.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> Everybodys getting all butthurt this year! Lol
> 
> Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk


I just get tired of arrogant union members that think they know it all. Like they have a lock on knowledge.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

Henry Miller didn't go through the apprenticeship. I had 10 years as an electrician, came in as a third year apprentice after refusing to take the JW test, and I am still "back door trash" to some of my local members.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Chops146 said:


> Henry Miller didn't go through the apprenticeship. I had 10 years as an electrician, came in as a third year apprentice after refusing to take the JW test, and I am still "back door trash" to some of my local members.


Henry Miller was also from Texas of all places.

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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

I was born in Texas...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chops146 said:


> I had 10 years as an electrician, came in as a third year apprentice after refusing to take the JW test, and I am still "*back door trash"* to some of my local members.



I have seen this many times, I worked open shop 8 years when I came into the local I had "A" JWs that refused to work with me. Best part was years later the company they work for were hiring my firm to do work for jobs some of these workers were on. 

Two of the almighty quit the local to start open shops.


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## Chops146 (Aug 26, 2018)

brian john said:


> I have seen this many times, I worked open shop 8 years when I came into the local I had "A" JWs that refused to work with me. Best part was years later the company they work for were hiring my firm to do work for jobs some of these workers were on.
> 
> Two of the almighty quit the local to start open shops.


A little golden rule goes a long way.


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## Taconite (Jan 1, 2019)

brian john said:


> Not at all but you stated you do not want to teach others that are JWs that is a foolish arrogant statement and I stand by my comment that I doubt you could come to work for my company and know what it takes to complete job one. Not because you are stupid but because you most likely have not been exposed to the type of work I do. All my employees teach new employees because that is what DECENT people do.



I guess a big time guy like you loves having the new guys to teach, take under your wing, make you feel like the great guy. 



Like I said before, the contractor is not the best choice for steering organizing, simply because compliancy is their first choice. I'm sure you will deny this, seeing as you are the decent type and all.



I will stand by my earlier statement, organized JWs have no track for formalized training, some are the best, and are an asset to the local. Some are dangerous, at a higher percentage, in my 39 years, than the white paper man . I've lived it without, maybe you need to work more in the field big timer.



It would be unfortunate if a shop owner had any input outside of NECA, to bad so many locals let them carry a card.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

@Taconite, you are barkingup the wrong tree. BJ is a good union employer, knows more about electrical testing and troubleshooting than me and you ever will. Could he wire a house probably not but he still knows more about electrical than anyone I have ever met. That is saying something because between Hax and I it doesn't get any better.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Taconite said:


> I guess a big time guy like you loves having the new guys to teach, take under your wing, make you feel like the great guy.


Actually, when I teach new employees electrical testing, I know if they can do the work I won't have to. 





> Like I said before, the contractor is not the best choice for steering organizing, simply because compliancy is their first choice. I'm sure you will deny this, seeing as you are the decent type and all.


It has to be a partnership




> I will stand by my earlier statement, organized JWs have no track for formalized training, some are the best, and are an asset to the local. Some are dangerous, at a higher percentage, in my 39 years, than the white paper man . I've lived it without, maybe you need to work more in the field big timer.


Well, you are being arrogant (typical of many union workers which is detrimental to the union) and very short-sighted. With 48 years in the field, I have seen more than my fair share of worthless electricians and believe me open shops do not have a lock on numb skulls, some of the laziest most worthless electricians came from the bench.





> It would be unfortunate if a shop owner had any input outside of NECA, to bad so many locals let them carry a card.


You are entitled to your opinion which has lead to many locals shrinking in membership allowing open shops to take over the market.

Contractors have a lot of input a letter from a contractor is what many aspiring apprentices want then they apply to the local.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> @Taconite, you are barkingup the wrong tree. BJ is a good union employer, knows more about electrical testing and troubleshooting than me and you ever will. Could he wire a house probably not but he still knows more about electrical than anyone I have ever met. That is saying something because between Hax and I it doesn't get any better.


I wired houses and garden apartments for 2 years and did residential service for 3.5 years. I learned sooo much about trouble shooting doing residential service.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

brian john said:


> I wired houses and garden apartments for 2 years and did residential service for 3.5 years. I learned sooo much about trouble shooting doing residential service.


Now your just bragging.


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