# Does a lineman know how to preform inside wireman work?



## vtfulton

I just passed my aptitude test to become a lineman, I have my interview in a months or so. 

My question is, If I decide to become and outside lineman instead of working inside, will I ever learn the inside work? 

Do lineman strictly do line work? or will a lineman go through training to also learn what the inside wireman's are doing?

Im thinking very long term, if I do lineman work, will I give up the possibility of every owning my own residential/commercial business..


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## wcord

Sorry to break it to you , but line work has avirtually nothing in common with electrical construction. 
You will be working on the outside distribution systems, poles, lines, transformers, underground . Important stuff, but nothing that pertains to the work we do. 
There are a few private companies which do linework, but those projects are not common.


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## wildleg

what ^he said. I went to give a price for a genset to some homeowners (word of mouth referral and practically a gimme job). I'm looking around, and I see Aluminum triplex going from the main panel into a drywalled clg in the (finished) basement. The triplex exited into the garage where there was a subpanel. I had no choice but to include rewiring it correctly (and with a ground). I think they got some schlock to do the job. what's a mutha to do ? (Turns out the home was originally owned by a local lineman before they bought it)

So. . . no, linemen don't know jack about wiring houses (mostly). And it goes the same in reverse too, I'm sure.


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## dronai

vtfulton said:


> I just passed my aptitude test to become a lineman, I have my interview in a months or so.
> 
> My question is, If I decide to become and outside lineman instead of working inside, will I ever learn the inside work?
> 
> Do lineman strictly do line work? or will a lineman go through training to also learn what the inside wireman's are doing?
> 
> Im thinking very long term, if I do lineman work, will I give up the possibility of every owning my own residential/commercial business..


 Look at it this way, you will have your own specialty work that pays well, that only linemen can perform. In construction, every yahoo around is messing with the building wiring, and there is always a whole bunch of competition driving the prices down.


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## klienschatz

All of these Guys are correct. Outside Line work is completely different from Inside work. The Voltages are completely different as well. As a Lineman, you would be working on a 12,000 Volt Primary line as to a Inside wireman would be working on a 120/240 volt lines. Completely different.


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## JW Splicer

From an old electrical worker I found online...

practical ability of our members should be the
aim of all local unions. A membership card of our Brotherhood should signify that the holder thereof is a finished mechanic in his particular branch of our business. Such efficiency means more to a local union than anything else it means that our employers will have confidence in our Brotherhood through reason of the fact that when he employes a member holding a journeyman's card, he can send him cut on a job with the knowledge and the confidence that the job will be done according to specifications and inspection laws, with no 
waste of material or time.
It means that before a member can receive a journeyman's card he will have served the required and necessary length of time at our trade.
It means that a member holding a journeyman's card as an inside wireman will not undertake to pass himself off on the employer as a journeyman lineman nor a journeyman shopman and vice versa.
The fact that a member has worked at outside electrical work for ten years, does not qualify him to do the work of the inside electrical worker or the shop electrical worker. Nor does ten years' experience as a shopman or an inside wireman qualify a member to do the work of a journeyman lineman.
The theory of a universal card in our business is impracticable and impossible and cannot be maintained unless at the sacrifice of our Brotherhood.
There are members in our organization qualified to work at all branches of our business as journeymen, but those men are few and far between, and you will find if you investigate, that they have served their time at all branches.
Let the boss be the judge you may say! Well, that is just what we should, avoid, we should not ask any employer to put a man to work in order to find out if he is an efficient mechanic. It is unfair to him and quite unreasonable.
We require the employer to pay us for every hour we work for him. Is it fair to expect him, the employer to pay the wages of a member who represents himself as a qualified journeyman wireman and who shows the employer our card, marked journeyman wireman, and who is employed on those representations and after he has put a job on the hummer so that it takes a competent journeyman three days to fix up the mistake of an incompetents efforts of one day.
We believe our organization is responsible for the damage done, and further we believe our organization should pay for it, and what is more, we believe the working card of such incompetents should be taken away and not returned again until they qualify as to their practical ability.
The very men that are incompetent to do inside electrical work, may be a number one mechanics in the outside business and vice versa, but that doesnot justify us in compelling the employers to pay for the damages done by them through ignorance of the work they undertook to do and which they are allowed to undertake to do by reason of the fact that they hold in their possession a paid-up card of our Brotherhood.
You may deem it strange, but nevertheless it is a fact, that our members who want to go from one branch of our calling to another, regardless of their ability, are not those who learned their trade under the control of our Brotherhood, but men who joined as journeymen in some city where the local union was lax in enforcing our laws relative to the admission of members.
The mechanics of all branches of our trade know the impossibility of their being able to go out and preform the duties of a journeyman in any other branch of our trade but their own.
It is unsound and unreasonable to think that an inside wireman can go out and fill the position of a cable splicer, he may make a bluff, but that is all. His bluff is soon called and the Brotherhood is the only one that suffers by such bluffs.
Local unions cannot be to strict on this important question. Bear in mind that efficiency is of greater moment to their future success and welfare that numbers no one should be admitted to membership as a journeyman member unless he can qualify as to the required length of experience and to his practical ability. We should all bear in mind that every incompetent we admit, is hurting our chances for better wages and working conditions.
The fact that an applicants application is signed by the President and Business Agent or in fact all the popular members of your local union should not surpercede the questions has he served the required length of time at the trade. Is he qualified to do the work required of a journeyman. 
A high initiation fee is not a bar to the incompetent. That will only bar the fellow that cannot raise the amount required for first payment, which is only 20% of the initiation fee. A fixed fake examination will not keep them out. Our laws are sufficient to keep them out if you will enforce them.


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## Jlarson

Line work is way closer to iron work then it is to inside electrical.


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## MTW

I wouldn't trust a lineman to wire a bird house.


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## Rollie73

Linework is as equally important to the trade but is a completely different aspect of the trade. 

If you really want to learn the inside wireman side of the trade then you will have to work as a construction electrician.


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## Meadow

Line men often electrical theory.


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## wildleg

meadow said:


> line men often electrical theory.


? ?


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## Meadow

wildleg said:


> ? ?


*lack


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## Magoo5150

I think most of the time linemen do not have a clue about resi. There are a few exceptions. My son has been a lineman for several years but is also well adapted to residential and commercial. He had to work for his uncle, an EC, to help put himself through school. The are a few out there.


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## ColoradoMaster3768

*"Does a lineman know how to preform inside wireman work?** ...**If I decide to become and outside lineman instead of working inside, will I ever learn the inside work? ...Do lineman strictly do line work?"*

No, not necessarily, you can learn the "inside work" but it will require a lot of effort to learn both trades—these are separate and distinct fields. The power distribution trade on the utility side is primarily governed by the National Electrical Safety Code, an ANSI/IEEE publication. "Inside work" not related to the production and distribution of electrical energy is primarily governed by National Electrical Code, an NFPA publication.

Also, keep in mind that the electrical field is by far the broadest of any of the engineering or trade mechanic fields—you can make an entire career just in residential systems, commercial – industrial systems, stand-by or emergency systems, health care electrical systems, lighting systems, distribution systems, generation systems (coal, gas, oil, hydro, solar, wind, etcetera), transmission systems, substations, or even fire alarm and security systems. 

I will offer you an analogy that may help give some perspective: 
· The English language is a very broad and rich language. There are more than 400,000 words in the English language—look at an unabridged dictionary to get an idea as to how many words there might be. 
· The average English-speaking person uses anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 words of the English language. 
· A college educated American may use as many as 5,000 different words from the English language. 
· William Shakespeare, truly an exceptional user of the English language, used approximately 20,000 different words of the English language.
· There are more than 20,000 words of terminology in the electrical/electronics field alone.
· So, I challenge anyone to know just the basic 2,000 to 3,000 words plus the additional 20,000+ words of the electrical/electronic fields—I "ain't" no Shakespeare.  

*"...will a lineman go through training to also learn what the inside wireman's are doing?"*

No, you will have to seek that training and experience on your own. 

Despite the differences, there is an absolute commonality in terms of electrical theory. Nevertheless, I suggest you pick "a trade" and stick to it. I also suggest that in addition to that you pursue some business education. This will help you in your career, business and personal life. ...Oh, and keep in mind that the electrical trade is a young man's game. If you have the privilege of living long enough you will find that the body wears out. So having that additional education and training might help you continue to earn when the day comes that the body can no longer "answer the bell."

I hope this helps, and I do wish you the best of luck. By the way, if you care to connect with me on LinkedIn, please send a "connect request" to Glenn R. Mann—I'm the one in Franktown, CO.


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## pete87

vtfulton said:


> I just passed my aptitude test to become a lineman, I have my interview in a months or so.
> 
> My question is, If I decide to become and outside lineman instead of working inside, will I ever learn the inside work?
> 
> Do lineman strictly do line work? or will a lineman go through training to also learn what the inside wireman's are doing?
> 
> Im thinking very long term, if I do lineman work, will I give up the possibility of every owning my own residential/commercial business..





********************** NO **************************



Two totally different Trades .




Pete


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## MDShunk

That question is a little bit like asking if the guy that works on the assembly line at GM can fix your car when it breaks down? Maybe, but highly unlikely.


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## Big John

Get into the right industrial electrician gig and you can be a sparky who plays with the same HV gear that linemen do.

But if you're thinking about opening your own business that's a different school of thought: Yeah, the license makes you legal but you will be seriously handicapped when bidding against residential guys who do that work every day and have all tricks, experience, and tools that you do not.

Short answer: Pick an area of the trade and stick with it, there's a reason you don't see guys advertising "residential & linework" on their trucks.


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## beanmachine314

If you want to get in on the more technical side of things try and get into substation work. Usually a little easier on the body and harder on the mind. Many times they look for linemen that have a little extra something going on upstairs to recruit (some lineman are just aerial fencers and couldn't at all tell you WHY they do the things they do, just how to put them together). It's somewhat analogous to a mix of linework/industrial electrician/electronics engineer (if you get into relay work). 

I have a coworker that tells a story from a storm a few years ago.

One night he was on duty and got a phone call that we had lost a station. He drives out there and starts looking around to see what took it out. Finds a bird on the ground fried up nice and decides that was the problem and goes to put the station back in. About that time the lineman on duty shows up and asks if he needs help, his response was, "by the time I can explain it to you I can have the station back in, just keep an eye on me." About 10 minutes later he is bringing the breakers back up and when he finishes one lineman looks to the other and says "We were out here all night working and get about 20 people back up. He comes out and get 12,000 back up in ten minutes." 

Moral of the story... You on't get all the glory working in the substation, but the satisfaction of knowing you're a special breed and the things you can do in just a few minutes is worth it.


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## Bad Electrician

Having done both, I can say it is easier to go from inside wireman to outside, though the work is generally harder and you will always be in the heat or cold. And if you are an underground lineman, I hope you love shovels and mud.


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## JW Splicer

There's as much to linework as there is inside work... You got relay guys, substation guys, network guys, generation, overhead transmission, u/g transmission, o/h and u/g distribution, troublemen, Fire protection, etc... The list could go on forever...

I love both sides, inside an outside, but haven't really done much at all as far as outside. Mainly underground stuff, loop radial, URD, and network... Haven't even scratched the surface with overhead or substation work...

To get the full scope you could go through 2 or more apprenticeships easily. Half the lineman don't even know what a network is, at the same time most splicers don't even attend climbing school anymore, or have CDL's...


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## MTW

To paraphrase something Marc Shunk said a while ago, lineman are laborers that assemble stuff in the air all day long.


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## Meadow

Ive been on linemen forums, its a totally different fraternity from anything Ive seen before. And no, when it comes to theory they aint to bright.


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## JW Splicer

I don't know about that... There are a lot of dummies with no theory at all, but the same can be said of electricians. I've met some of the smarter guys on line crews, some of those guys absolutely know their ch!t... I've never been impressed with the line forums, the few guys on them got caught up in the Union vs. non-union debate and threads never moved on. The sharpest guys I've met have generally a broader experience in the trade. Many have done dang near everything out there!


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## RIVETER

vtfulton said:


> I just passed my aptitude test to become a lineman, I have my interview in a months or so.
> 
> My question is, If I decide to become and outside lineman instead of working inside, will I ever learn the inside work?
> 
> Do lineman strictly do line work? or will a lineman go through training to also learn what the inside wireman's are doing?
> 
> Im thinking very long term, if I do lineman work, will I give up the possibility of every owning my own residential/commercial business..


Lineman...Inside wireman...two different animals.


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## telsa

The real question is: can any YouTuber be up to inside wireman standards?


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## RIVETER

telsa said:


> The real question is: can any YouTuber be up to inside wireman standards?


Any "off duty" fireman can.


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## degupita

The main difference is, if you get a shock inside. It will often tweek your nerves. You can get seriously hurt or killed.

But in Lineman work, if you touch the wire or become part of the line. You are probably dead.


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## beanmachine314

degupita said:


> The main difference is, if you get a shock inside. It will often tweek your nerves. You can get seriously hurt or killed.
> 
> But in Lineman work, if you touch the wire or become part of the line. You are probably dead.


This really depends on where you are. Many times incidents happen and no one gets hurt seriously. Fault currents on distribution lines are many times not nearly what they are in an industrial setting. Our max available fault current out of 12 stations is barely over 20kA. With microprocessor relaying these days many times faults are cleared within a few cycles anyway. Even inside the secondary compartment of a 1000 KVA transformer we are still under HRC 2. Not saying it isn't dangerous but it's not a one tiny slip and you're dead job... Anymore... Now inside the station is a different matter, and that is why if it can't be done with a stick we de energize.

I'd much rather work most of our primary hot than a 4000 amp 480 service. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## degupita

beanmachine314 said:


> This really depends on where you are. Many times incidents happen and no one gets hurt seriously. Fault currents on distribution lines are many times not nearly what they are in an industrial setting. Our max available fault current out of 12 stations is barely over 20kA. With microprocessor relaying these days many times faults are cleared within a few cycles anyway. Even inside the secondary compartment of a 1000 KVA transformer we are still under HRC 2. Not saying it isn't dangerous but it's not a one tiny slip and you're dead job... Anymore... Now inside the station is a different matter, and that is why if it can't be done with a stick we de energize.
> 
> I'd much rather work most of our primary hot than a 4000 amp 480 service.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


I suppose it would depend on if there is a current draw from customers still on the line being worked?


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## beanmachine314

Depends on the situation. If you're at the end of a long single phase circuit strung with #6 copper that's quite a bit of impedance to cut down the fault current. Although the breaker operating times will be quite a bit longer. This is where your flash burns happen, possibly losing a limb.

OTOH if you're on a 795 ACSR trunk line impedance will be much lower and fault currents higher that's where people get killed.

What we do to mitigate risk is we set a hot line tag whenever someone is working on that circuit. Basically what this does is lowers the instantaneous ground over current relay to where if something were to happen and you were to go phase to ground the breaker would trip and lock out ASAP (usually around 5 cycles).

Inside the station is much more dangerous because impedances are low enough you get max fault current most anywhere. 

If this was 20 years ago and people still used electro mechanical relays as often I'd tend to agree but all in all the safety has improved many times over.


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## Meadow

degupita said:


> I suppose it would depend on if there is a current draw from customers still on the line being worked?



In most 15-25kv distribution circuits the fault current out on the line is almost always under 10,000amps with supply substations usually being not over 10-12.5ka. Unless co-generation is in service customer loading would not matter. As you head away from the substation short circuit current goes down significantly, usually to only a few thousand amps. Starting page 8:


https://library.e.abb.com/public/91ad3a29a50978bf85256c550053db0d/Hard.To.Find.6th.pdf

Thats not to say people do not or can not get hurt, however compared to a large 480 volt service the short circuit current is far lower.


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## degupita

meadow said:


> In most 15-25kv distribution circuits the fault current out on the line is almost always under 10,000amps with supply substations usually being not over 10-12.5ka. Unless co-generation is in service customer loading would not matter. As you head away from the substation short circuit current goes down significantly, usually to only a few thousand amps. Starting page 8:
> 
> 
> https://library.e.abb.com/public/91ad3a29a50978bf85256c550053db0d/Hard.To.Find.6th.pdf
> 
> Thats not to say people do not or can not get hurt, however compared to a large 480 volt service the short circuit current is far lower.


I guess that is HARD TO FIND INFORMATION
ABOUT DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS.
 :thumbsup:


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## degupita

It says feeder lines don't often exceed 400 amps, or even 200 amps. 
That is a lot of amps to go through the body. Isn't that deadly?

And laterals are 400 amps, but often don't exceed 50 amps.

I had 8 amps go through me, and I almost passed out.


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## Meadow

degupita said:


> It says feeder lines don't often exceed 400 amps, or even 200 amps.
> That is a lot of amps to go through the body. Isn't that deadly?
> 
> And laterals are 400 amps, but often don't exceed 50 amps.
> 
> I had 8 amps go through me, and I almost passed out.



They are talking about peak load, not the amount that is safe for the human body.


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## mitch65

Become a lineman for a couple of years, they will teach you how to work your a$$ off at all hours and in all weather, how to work away for home for weeks at a time, get you in shape climbing poles and working with heavy equipment and how to drink (see working away from home for weeks at a time). When you learn all that, (if you don't like it) then take an apprenticeship as an electrician and be thankful you aren't doing line work any more. Or get a job with a utility and enjoy the cash and benefits.


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## degupita

I need a small vacation. :jester:

Quiz electrical reference of the day.


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## jza

No word of a lie I've seen linesman look at MCC's, switchgears and panelboards and have absolutely no idea what was going on.


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## beanmachine314

No lie I've witnessed a foreman ask what voltage his lineman was working on and when I told him it was just 13kV he yelled up to his lineman and said 'remember that $hit is 26kV phase to phase'. He was working a 12470Y/7200 (we just call it 13) strain bus in one of our stations.

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