# Thoughts on GFCI breaker wiring



## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

*Had pigtails for gfci breakers daisy chained through 4 slot pressure connectors for 3*

Daisy chained pigtails for gfci breakers


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I can't remember the exact article, but it may be in 215 or 225. There is a prohibition against using one big neutral for multiple branch circuits. It's allowed for feeders but not branches. I would say that it would apply here. When I get some time I will find the exact article.


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

Any thoughts or opinions are welcome


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

408.41.


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

Does this apply to the pigtail wire that comes connected to a gfci breaker or just the branch circuits load neutral.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You have the possibility of overloading a No 10 conductor. If two GFCI's are on the same phase and each is passing 20 amps through them, there's 40 amps on a No 10.

Pigtailing might be disallowed by the GFCI instructions per 110(3)(B).


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

I did not install this particular application. I personally feel it was a shortcut that ended up costing my employer 5k worth of gfci breakers. I'm trying to find code to help throw back some cost towards development


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## Mtsparky911 (Jun 23, 2015)

Hold the phone here gfi breakers or arc fault breakers . Why would there be 38 gfi breakers in a panel. Secondly are you saying that the neutrals off all the breakers are tied together to a #10 that lands on the neutral bar?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What installation would require 38 GFCI breakers @ $131 per?

How did pigtailing sidestep installing those 38 breakers?


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

The breaker neutrals are pigtailed together? So that #10 could be seeing the current off of 19 circuits(single phase panel) or 15ish in a 3 phase situation? Surprised the splice heated up......... Not supposed to use the panel as a junction box in the first place so pigtailing is kind of out. The #10 would have to be rated for maximum unbalanced load of all the circuits, which could theoretically be 285 amps (228A if Ccts are loaded to 80%)
Heated up eh? Who would have thought?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mitch65 said:


> ......... Not supposed to use the panel as a junction box in the first place so pigtailing is kind of out......


Is that a CEC thing?


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

Yes the pigtails that come on the gfci breakers where all daisy chained from 1 #10 thhn white wire landed in the neutral bus. Breakers are actually $225 a piece give or take a few bucks. We only bought some of them to replace the breakers that will not reset at all. The panel is for pool equipment at resort


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## Mtsparky911 (Jun 23, 2015)

Ya that's insane first of all gfi breakers everywhere and all of the neutral current that is unbalanced would be going through the single #10 conductor. I don't know any electricians that would do that. This is not only a code violation but a severe fire and safety hazard.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

480sparky said:


> Is that a CEC thing?


yep, the way we have always interpreted it anyway.
6-212 (1) enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mitch65 said:


> yep, the way we have always interpreted it anyway.
> 6-212 (1) enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.



So you have to install a j-box next to the panel just to extend a conductor that's too short? Seems silly and having a wire nut in a panel has never been proven to be a safety hazard.

Sounds like someone who wrote your code is more concerned about appearance.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

480sparky said:


> So you have to install a j-box next to the panel just to extend a conductor that's too short? Seems silly and having a wire nut in a panel has never been proven to be a safety hazard.
> 
> Sounds like someone who wrote your code is more concerned about appearance.


As a last resort we but splice wires if they are too short. I didn't write the code, just try to follow it. Had a guy cut in the cables and terminate all the neutrals in a new panel then he realized that there were GFCI and arc fault breakers to go in...... Only happened once though.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

480sparky said:


> So you have to install a j-box next to the panel just to extend a conductor that's too short? Seems silly and having a wire nut in a panel has never been proven to be a safety hazard.
> 
> Sounds like someone who wrote your code is more concerned about appearance.


No
This requirement is for new installations only, 12-3032(2)(b)provides for limited splicing in enclosures containing overcurrent devices
for splicing and circuit modifications for retrofits. It allows up to %40 fill where splices are made.

There are plenty of good explanations about the neutrals and I might add the CEC also has a rule that says an identified conductor must be spliced in such a way that you can disconnect an individual neutral without opening any other neutral connection and a daisy chain would not permit that either. All panelboards must have 1 terminal available for each neutral which should at least equal the number of permitted branch circuits plus the feeder neutral and if a service entry panel another for the service ground wire.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I can't remember the exact article, but it may be in 215 or 225. There is a prohibition against using one big neutral for multiple branch circuits. It's allowed for feeders but not branches. I would say that it would apply here. When I get some time I will find the exact article.


Here it is but I believe that was new to the 2011 code



> 200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall be
> installed in accordance with 200.4(A) and (B).
> (A) Installation. Neutral conductors shall not be used for
> more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire
> ...


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

This property is only a year old. Construction was rushed and its a new nightmare around every corner. 1 billion dollar property and this crackerjack bull is everywhere


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here it is but I believe that was new to the 2011 code


That's a good one, but I was actually thinking of 215.4(A).


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

DDavidElectric said:


> Had pigtails for gfci breakers daisy chained through 4 slot pressure connectors for 38 GFCI breakers all terminating with 1 10 guage wire connecting to neutral bus. One of the connections became loose and melted all the pigtails up the panel. Is there any code protectin against this application and what are your thoughts and or opinions on this


Of course there is a code prohibiting using one neutral for 38 circuits.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> DDavidElectric said:
> 
> 
> > Had pigtails for gfci breakers daisy chained through 4 slot pressure connectors for 38 GFCI breakers all terminating with 1 10 guage wire connecting to neutral bus. One of the connections became loose and melted all the pigtails up the panel. Is there any code protectin against this application and what are your thoughts and or opinions on this
> ...


Exactly. Thats not how this works. Thats not how any of this works.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

DDavidElectric said:


> Does this apply to the pigtail wire that comes connected to a gfci breaker or just the branch circuits load neutral.


That *IS* the branch circuits load neutral.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Mshea said:


> No
> 
> .......... the CEC also has a rule that says an identified conductor must be spliced in such a way that you can disconnect an individual neutral without opening any other neutral connection.........


I was looking for this rule recently and couldn't find it. Anyone know
the CEC/OESC code number? 
Thanks,
P&L


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

Well rewired panel and custom built neutral bus from parts of another panel. Each breaker has its own neutral now. Took amp reading on individual neutrals after making up and turning equipment on. 147 amps give or take was running through the #10 wire. I'm kind of impressed it lasted a year.


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

And btw yes I know I asked some stupid questions but I was hoping to find specific worded code on the matter. Lawyers like those lmao. Think I found my smoking guns. Thanks all!!!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good call on the N bus DD....:thumbsup:~CS~:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mitch65 said:


> yep, the way we have always interpreted it anyway.
> 6-212 (1) enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.


I would interpret that to mean you could wire nut a GFCI pigtail, because it isn't tapping off to other apparatus or feeding through. Seems to me that rule means you can't use a panel to pass wires through it. I can't read it in a way that would disallow you to extend a wire that belongs in the panel.


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## DDavidElectric (Dec 14, 2015)

I had to extend the wires from gfi breakers. The stock pigtails where to short. Is there a trick to upload pics cause I just keep getting error messages


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I was looking for this rule recently and couldn't find it. Anyone know
> the CEC/OESC code number?
> Thanks,
> P&L


4-028 (d) which would preclude you from marretting all of them together and tying 1 conductor to the neutral bar no matter what. Might be different in the US though.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

mitch65 said:


> 4-028 (d) which would preclude you from marretting all of them together and tying 1 conductor to the neutral bar no matter what. Might be different in the US though.


Thanks mitch65. Exactly what I was looking for. I looked in 
sections 4 & 12 but missed it.

BTW, a couple of the cranky old guys get upset when we say 
"marretting", so keep it up. :thumbsup:

P&L


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Thanks mitch65. Exactly what I was looking for. I looked in
> sections 4 & 12 but missed it.
> 
> BTW, a couple of the cranky old guys get upset when we say
> ...


Wire nutting sounds stupid


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

Just remember that marrettes, like many things Canadian, are just nuts.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mitch65 said:


> Wire nutting sounds stupid


Yes, that's true. But "marrette" and "marretting" sounds French... so wire nutting it is.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

inetdog said:


> Just remember that marrettes, like many things Canadian, are just nuts.


I've been called that .... and worse :whistling2:

E Nutz


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

DDavidElectric said:


> This property is only a year old. Construction was rushed and its a new nightmare around every corner. 1 billion dollar property and this crackerjack bull is everywhere


Not rare but still crappy! I hope you're making money!!! I have worked in some new-ish multi million dollar condos that I think a one eyed paraplegic deaf chimpanzee wired. Sometimes it seems like the higher the dollar the project/building is, the more crap gets bribed or swept under the rug so it all finishes on time and the guys up stairs are happy.


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## eds (Mar 21, 2009)

Just wondering if these were two pole gfi breakers, that had load neutrals attached to them. Still a violation


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

inetdog said:


> Just remember that marrettes, like many things Canadian, are just nuts.


nuts but right


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