# Troubleshooting



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

There are plenty of them out there. I have never read any of them.
Key seems to be follow it back to the source.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=book+for+troubleshooting+common+electrical+problems


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

What kind of troubleshooting? Resi? HID fixtures? Pump/motors?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I follow the K.I. S. S. (keep it simple, stupid) principle of troubleshooting. Start at the problem and work backwards.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

No book can really help you here. Every problem will be different. 

What you need to do is have a sound understanding of how electrical circuits are wired and then you will naturally know how to break down faults and repair.


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## OldMasterTech (Mar 12, 2014)

There's plenty of text available for troubleshooting specific items, motors, transformers, appliances, etc.

But for solving general system problems your eyes, ears, nose and common sense are the starting points. If something was working it can work again, this situation is actually easier to troubleshoot than a new installation that does not work properly.
Resi or commercial, first question I ask is what work or changes have been made recently, even as simple as hanging pictures. Most failures are damage related, whether it be from human, rodent, insect, water or age so eyeball major system components first looking for any subtle signs, then divide and conquer.

Everyone here knows when you start working on a tough system problem you always find the primary problem along with other small problems that need attention.

Learn your test equipment intimately! One story I tell is a friend with a dump truck, after replacing both batteries, starter, regulator and alternator it still would not fully charge and started reluctantly. Within minutes I noticed a 1 ohm reading on the battery to frame cable. He had ignored this as acceptable continuity but I know that 24" battery cables measure zero. Sure enough, internal corrosion was the culprit. He could have fixed the truck for $20 instead of the hundreds he spent if he paid attention to details and trusted his test equipment. In this case, he was a trained mechanic not an electrician, but the same logic applies.

I have found a cockroach that impaled himself on a component lead, then his body fluids dissolved a circuit board trace causing the display panel to go dark - how do you write a book about that?

Learn your trade thoroughly and you'll do fine. Troubleshooting is the part of the job that prevents boredom!


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

OldMasterTech said:


> ...
> 
> 
> I have found a cockroach that impaled himself on a component lead, then his body fluids dissolved a circuit board trace causing the display panel to go dark - how do you write a book about that?
> ...


It has been said that software malfunctions are called "bugs" because the first time a computer failed during operation, the engineers opened it up and found a bug causing a short as you describe. 

Today we know it's because Microsoft's marketing department has more pull than the engineering department. That's why every new operating system is for 11 year old girls sending butterflies and unicorns to grandma while we fight to get our work done.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Cutting the problem in half often helps. Instead of following a problem back thru 10 boxes, start in the middle and see whether you need to work left or right. Then do it again.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

This may sound funny but do logic puzzles. The logic puzzles that make you think if this did this then it can't be them or if this did't do this it may be them. You would be suprised how well this works when you add in theory or controls.

A great troubleshooter has good logic and common sense, but can think outside the box sometime.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Cutting the problem in half often helps. Instead of following a problem back thru 10 boxes, start in the middle and see whether you need to work left or right. Then do it again.


I try to use this approach but often I find I don't know how the circuit is laid out and end up taking every box apart.

Example:
I find where the panel is, then what is not working. I try to go to the center of the circuit but stuff is all over the place. Sometimes a box closest to the panel is the last ( or close) one on the circuit. Or part of the circuit is in every room of the house. This is usually due to stuff being added over the years.

Just recently, I had a problem with flickering/strobing lights in a hall, closet, foyer, and front porch. I knew and proved it was a lost or loose neutral. I started in (what I thought was) the middle and worked both ways. The problem was still there.
I asked the customer what else was on the circuit and he said only a bedroom. I said well I need to check there too. But before I did anything else I turned the breaker off to see for myself what wasn't working.
Turns out EVERY bedroom's lights were on that same circuit.

Long story short, I found the problem in a ceiling fan that the customer was sure had nothing to do with the problem. His son liked to have the fan on high. So the "strobing" effect was due to the vibration of the fan causing the neutrals to lose/make contact, which was a poor connection under a wire nut.
Logically looking, there was no way to know where to start on this and which way to go because of the way it was laid out when wired.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> It has been said that software malfunctions are called "bugs" because the first time a computer failed during operation, the engineers opened it up and found a bug causing a short as you describe.


A little history of technology: 



> September 9, 1947
> First Instance of Actual Computer Bug Being Found
> 
> At 3:45 p.m., Grace Murray Hopper records the first computer bug in her log book as she worked on the Harvard Mark II. The problem was traced to a moth stuck between a relay in the machine, which Hopper duly taped into the Mark II's log book with the explanation: “First actual case of bug being found.”


from
http://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/September/9/


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Rule #1 in troubleshooting. First find out all the information from the owner. Then ask specific questions to get all the real information out of the owner. Then dismiss 95% of the total information received from owner cause it is all bullchit and will lead to endless frustrating hours of misery troubleshooting. Then proceed to Hax's system as soon as you quit talking to owner.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> I try to use this approach but often I find I don't know how the circuit is laid out and end up taking every box apart.
> 
> Example:
> I find where the panel is, then what is not working. I try to go to the center of the circuit but stuff is all over the place. Sometimes a box closest to the panel is the last ( or close) one on the circuit. Or part of the circuit is in every room of the house. This is usually due to stuff being added over the years.
> ...


Everything you say is true. However, that is only how it happens sometimes. And trying to divide and conquer isn't going to hurt in your situation, but it will help in many others.

I work in mostly old houses. The cover plates could take up to 5 minutes to get off the wall due to all the paint holding it not only on the wall, but to the receptacle too. Cutting the paint without making a mess is a pain. Then the wires are so short that I can't even remove the receptacle enough to see into the box. The box is tiny, and the old cloth covered insulation is non-existent, you can see the copper wire. 

Every box that I have to open is a pain in the ass, so every box that I don't have to open is a good thing. That's why I would rather try to half the circuit and save myself from opening every box, vs. just going down the line.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Rule #1 in troubleshooting. First find out all the information from the owner. Then ask specific questions to get all the real information out of the owner. Then dismiss 95% of the total information received from owner cause it is all bullchit and will lead to endless frustrating hours of misery troubleshooting. Then proceed to Hax's system as soon as you quit talking to owner.




Never a truer word spoken. Listen to them then forget everything they said.


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## cmdr_suds (Jul 29, 2016)

Only listen to what they tell you that are symptoms. DO NOT listen to what they tell you is the cause. 

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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Same for machine operators*



Essex said:


> Never a truer word spoken. Listen to them then forget everything they said.


Same for machine operators, They can help but they can also lead you astray


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

just the cowboy said:


> Same for machine operators, They can help but they can also lead you astray




Or they can intentionally sabotage their machines because they're lazy ****ers 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

The three basic troubleshooting questions to fix anything"

What is it supposed to do? 

What doesn't it do?

What does it do?


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

Nope. It is - "what is the problem?" 

"Ok thanks, milk and two sugars please."


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Troubleshooting is too broad a term, for there are many branches of the genre.

1) Troubleshooting residential branch circuits -- especially L-N circuits.

For Heaven's sake, use a toner and wand on a totally de-energized circuit.

If your _really_ smart, you'll de-energize all nearby circuits, too.

A voltage tick and the trivial plug tester are also essentials.

2) Troubleshooting motors -- DMM, Simpson analogue meter + megger + 'scope. 

There are books on the matter, so I won't belabor the matter.

3) Troubleshooting strobing -- watch out for 60 Hz and 120 Hz strobing frequencies. They characterize power supply issues. Strobing on other frequencies is likely due to some cyclic action in a motor// motor driven device.

4) Troubleshooting crossed over hots on the same leg of power in a residence -- kill every branch breaker, then, one by one, turn on a solo breaker at a time. Use your voltage tick to see if same-leg voltage crosses over to another hot in the panel.

This is a common, and frightful, error made by DIYer and handymen. Such a cross-over defeats the OCP we expect in every build.

&&&&&&&&

In the larger picture, troubleshooting is learned by apprenticeship under a seasoned hand.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

MikeFL said:


> It has been said that software malfunctions are called "bugs" because the first time a computer failed during operation, the engineers opened it up and found a bug causing a short as you describe.


Once I worked on a soft ice cream machine that wouldn't start. The problem was that while it had been in storage stinkbugs had crawled up into the contactors, keeping them from closing.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Cutting the problem in half often helps. Instead of following a problem back thru 10 boxes, start in the middle and see whether you need to work left or right. Then do it again.


When i was an apprentice i borrowed an electronics fault finding book .The author was an American ex serviceman who maintained he could teach monkeys how to service electronic equipment , using the "Half split method"
you describe...
Frank


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I consider myself a good troubleshooter, which may or may not mean I am, everyone thinks they are a good troubleshooter but most are average. But I do get a lot of calls from others just for troubleshooting when they are stumped. 

I never saw a book about it and I am not sure I could picture a book about it although having a list of troubleshooting tips and tricks would certainly be helpful. For example using a flasher and clamp to identify circuits, or @telsa 's circuit by circuit method to find cross ups. But for more complicated problems the real talent is knowing which of those tricks apply to this problem. 

I think for more complicated problems the most valuable thing I use is a pad and paper. Sketching things out helps me a great deal. A lot of problems are clear before you even finish the drawing. 

The other thing, if there are a lot of tests you might need to do, and a lot of possible problems or possibly more than one problem, write down everything you do and the result as you do it. If you don't, you might wind up chasing your tail. 

You don't have to do this if it's a simple problem like tracking down the bad connection where you're able to keep the picture and the steps in your head. But as soon as you find out it's more complicated than that, I'd get out the pencil and paper.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

splatz said:


> I consider myself a good troubleshooter, which may or may not mean I am, everyone thinks they are a good troubleshooter but most are average. But I do get a lot of calls from others just for troubleshooting when they are stumped.
> 
> I never saw a book about it and I am not sure I could picture a book about it although having a list of troubleshooting tips and tricks would certainly be helpful. For example using a flasher and clamp to identify circuits, or @*telsa* 's circuit by circuit method to find cross ups. But for more complicated problems the real talent is knowing which of those tricks apply to this problem.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I was going to say the best book on troubleshooting is the blank one in which you record your findings as you investigate the problem.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Forge Boyz said:


> Once I worked on a soft ice cream machine that wouldn't start. The problem was that while it had been in storage *stinkbugs* had crawled up into the contactors, keeping them from closing.


Speaking of Stinkbugs, I understand most come from Pa

TAKE THEM BACK!!!

We've been seeing a few of them for two or three years. But this Fall we are infested with them. I moved some boxes in my van and found a butt load already trying to "winter" there!

I've sucked up about two vacuum bags full just in my basement!!!


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Yep*



Biscuits said:


> Or they can intentionally sabotage their machines because they're lazy ****ers
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Back when I was an apprentice working at a navy yard, I had a call to go fix a welding machine on a ship. Three in the morning, below zero wind chill. I walk the 1/2 mile to the ship, climb to the 08 level (up) look for the welder operator for a half hour. I find him sitting in front of a heater, and says his gun is on the mast (012) level. I go outside and up the mast and find his gun frozen in 6 inchs of ice. Go back down and rank why didn't you just tag it out and get a new one. His answer was *"Then I would have to work in the cold*", meanwhile I'm frozen.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> I try to use this approach but often I find I don't know how the circuit is laid out and end up taking every box apart.


This why when I wire something I hop all over the place. I want the next guy to look like a fool. Who cares if it takes a bit more wire.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> This why when I wire something I hop all over the place. I want the next guy to look like a fool. Who cares if it takes a bit more wire.


Isn't the next guy usually you too? :blink:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Once I worked on a soft ice cream machine that wouldn't start. The problem was that while it had been in storage stinkbugs had crawled up into the contactors, keeping them from closing.


Normally when left idle spiders like to make egg sacks in those spots, while in use it's normally ants.

Worst case scenario is when it's a cockroach colony and you disturb them and they scatter. The type of day you dump your tool bag out before putting it in the van.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

splatz said:


> I consider myself a good troubleshooter, which may or may not mean I am, everyone thinks they are a good troubleshooter but most are average. But I do get a lot of calls from others just for troubleshooting when they are stumped.
> 
> I never saw a book about it and I am not sure I could picture a book about it although having a list of troubleshooting tips and tricks would certainly be helpful. For example using a flasher and clamp to identify circuits, or @*telsa* 's circuit by circuit method to find cross ups. But for more complicated problems the real talent is knowing which of those tricks apply to this problem.
> 
> ...


The single worst headache -- as a troubleshooter -- occurred when I was called in from afar to bail out a _very_ troubled TI.

This was at the height of the Internet mania -- and every electrician was booked up. So the EC was hiring directly out of the zoo.

Eight-hours in, I was still not able to get my first circuits powered up. This was not due to a failure to find faults. Rather, the crew had so MANY compounded faults that even after re-wiring every j-box it was still dead. 

So the next day I jumped to the other, most recently worked, set of office spaces. ( They were termed 'pods', BTW. 

It took but a few fixes, and voila, success. I then used it as a pattern to correct each pod. Not ONE of these simple circuits was wired up correctly. This was a world record hairball. I finally got back to where I began, pod one. It was at this stage I discovered that this pod didn't even have a homerun to the panel ! 

Other 'funny' things on that TI. The wire pulling and make-up crew never stayed on color. Brown to orange to yellow ... the color of the conductor had no relation to the phase it was on. Extreme time pressure meant that I had to let this hairball stay as is. (!)

So, to the OP, sometimes the only path to victory is grunt work.

The office space so created was back on the market in 90 days. The well heeled firm lost hundreds of millions in that time frame. It went into Chapter 7.

On any given day, they lost $2,000,000 + which is how you make a small fortune.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Cutting the problem in half often helps. Instead of following a problem back thru 10 boxes, start in the middle and see whether you need to work left or right. Then do it again.


The phone co. calls that the "binary method"

I've been doing it for years but didn't know it had a name


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Finding an open is a lot easier than finding a short.

The short prevents you from using a toner or a non-contact voltage detector.

Sometimes wiring a bulb in series with the breaker allows you to energize the circuit.
The bulb will go to full brilliance until you open the circuit at the short.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Finding an open is a lot easier than finding a short.
> 
> The short prevents you from using a toner or a non-contact voltage detector.
> 
> ...


Yup. And when the panel with the tripping breaker is in the basement, and the short is on the second floor, it's a lot easier to wire in a bulb with an extension cord than to run back and forth up and down the stairs 20 times to check if the short is still happening.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Yup. And when the panel with the tripping breaker is in the basement, and the short is on the second floor, it's a lot easier to wire in a bulb with an extension cord than to run back and forth up and down the stairs 20 times to check if the short is still happening.


Facetime with a helper is nice when available too!


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