# Panel installed upside down



## B4T

NolaTigaBait said:


> Anyone see any issues with installing a qo main breaker panel main breaker at the bottom?. The main shuts off left to right. I always install siemens or murray and their panels say on the cover that they can be inverted. Problems?


Besides it looking like a mistake, it is fine.

Still.. it looks like a rookie did the install IMO


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## NolaTigaBait

Black4Truck said:


> Besides it looking like a mistake, it is fine.
> 
> Still.. it looks like a rookie did the install IMO


Yeah,I don;t like the idea of it. I'm installing a 400 amp meter pan outside and i'm mounting the 2 200 amp panels back to back. If I come in "the proper way", i'll have all of that 3/0 in that panel and I'm trying to avoid that.


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## MDShunk

No such thing as right side up or up side down when you're using a modern panel.


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## Speedy Petey

Black4Truck said:


> Still.. it looks like a rookie did the install IMO


In 2009 this is a skewed opinion as far as I am concerned. 

ABSOLUTELY no reason not to mount the panel main breaker down. 

Why in the world would it look like a rookie did it? Mains have been throwing side-to-side for years now. 
In fact, I think it looks stupid when the entrance conductors loop from the bottom up to a top mounted main breaker or lugs, besides making the panel messy and MUCH harder to work in the necessary.
To me THIS is an amateur mistake, or at least installed by someone living in the past and who can't come to terms with change.


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## NolaTigaBait

Ok, I feel better now hearing that from you's guys.


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## B4T

Speedy Petey said:


> In 2009 this is a skewed opinion as far as I am concerned.


I agree with you.. BUT opening up the panel door and the writing is upside down.

Old habits are hard to change :blink:


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## 480sparky

Why does just about every panel have this near the line terminals if there was only 'one way' to mount the panel?:


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## NolaTigaBait

480sparky said:


> Why does just about every panel have this near the line terminals if there was only 'one way' to mount the panel?:


Haha, I noticed this.


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## kbsparky

Black4Truck said:


> I agree with you.. BUT opening up the panel door and the writing is upside down....


Look again. The writing on the panel cover is SIDEWAYS, and can be read either way.

YOU need glasses!


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## manchestersparky

Black4Truck said:


> I agree with you.. BUT opening up the panel door and the writing is upside down.
> 
> Old habits are hard to change :blink:


Don't panels now days have the writing sideways just for this reason?



Edit-Kb was posting the same thing as I was writing it


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## 480sparky

Sideways printing is pretty typical:


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## kbsparky

> ...Kb was posting the same thing as I was writing it..


 LOL

Yeah, before I posted that I just HAD to go look at my 20 year old panel cover to verify that the writing was indeed sideways! 

And it sure is! :blink:

I have been installing bottom-fed mains since the mid-80's when Square D came out with the QOM main breakers that operate sideways. Much more convenient than the old style Q2 breakers, which had to be specified top-or-bottom feed. :whistling2:


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## Buck Parrish

MDShunk said:


> No such thing as right side up or up side down when you're using a modern panel.


I agree, that's why they make the breakers switch sideways. Not up and down.


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## McClary’s Electrical

Don't worry!! It won't look like a rookie did it,,,,,,in fact I think it looks more like a rookie did it when it's bottom feed and the STILL LOOP FEEDERS up top,,,,,,looks bad,,,,takes up space for nothing. Whoever wrote that is misinformed.


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## RePhase277

There's still a couple brands with a breaker that operates vertically: GE, and Siemens and CH. It's not a big deal. Nothing a little rebuild won't fix.


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## william1978

I mounted the panel in my house just like you are talking about and its a square D qo and it worked just fine.


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## Richard Rowe

You could have an issue with voltage drop with the current flowing up.... I'm just saying. You could check it with a volt/presure meter. :jester:


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## McClary’s Electrical

Richard Rowe said:


> You could have an issue with voltage drop with the current flowing up.... I'm just saying. You could check it with a volt/presure meter. :jester:


 ok,,,that makes no sense at all!!


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## 480sparky

mcclary's electrical said:


> ok,,,that makes no sense at all!!


It's a joke, son. He just forgot to end it with a :laughing:.


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## McClary’s Electrical

ok gotcha:laughing: (I actually thought he believed that for a minute)


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## Toronto Sparky

But the electrons will have to flow uphill.


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## ralph

Your opinion is your opinion, but IMHO, when I see 4/0 al or 3/0 cu coming from the bottom, and going up through a panel to the top breaker or lugs, it looks like amature hour. It also saves 4' of conductors ( that is- if your buying it).


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## froggie9189

*froggie9189*

There are a lot of things that don't make sense in our trade simply because the product designer doesn't install the product regularly with all kinds of different applications. Why don't these guys do more field research? How many times have you gotten material that has had some improvement, "easy install", that has cost you time. Fellow electricians, I say UNITE! Other than that, label your panel clearly, no sweat. It is true that you won't catch me doing an upside down panel, call it stoopid pride.


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## RePhase277

froggie9189 said:


> There are a lot of things that don't make sense in our trade simply because the product designer doesn't install the product regularly with all kinds of different applications. Why don't these guys do more field research? How many times have you gotten material that has had some improvement, "easy install", that has cost you time. Fellow electricians, I say UNITE! Other than that, label your panel clearly, no sweat. It is true that you won't catch me doing an upside down panel, call it stoopid pride.


But what makes it "upside down"? Where is having the main a the top defined as "right side up"?


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## 480sparky

froggie9189 said:


> ...........It is true that you won't catch me doing an upside down panel, call it stoopid pride.


What makes it upside-down?


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## user4818

froggie9189 said:


> It is true that you won't catch me doing an upside down panel, call it stoopid pride.


Yes, to not do something that is perfectly normal and allowable simply because of pride is indeed "stoopid."


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## oldschool

stoopid people UNITE!


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## 480sparky

oldschool said:


> stoopid people UNITE!


We already have. We're here, aren't we?:laughing:


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## oldschool

480sparky said:


> We already have. We're here, aren't we?:laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## TOOL_5150

ralph said:


> Your opinion is your opinion, but IMHO, when I see 4/0 al or 3/0 cu coming from the bottom, and going up through a panel to the top breaker or lugs, it looks like amature hour. It also saves 4' of conductors ( that is- if your buying it).


I will have a few pics from my current job here toward the end of the week. One panel will have 3/0 coming up the side and to the top of the main breaker, and the other will have #2 going up the site to the lugs. Its a standard the company has set.

And let it be known, im very far from being the host of amature hour. :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## Shado

ralph said:


> It also saves 4' of conductors ( that is- if your buying it).


Uhh....don't you charge it to the customer and make a profit? Or just give to them free of charge?


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## TOOL_5150

Shado said:


> Uhh....don't you charge it to the customer and make a profit? Or just give to them free of charge?


Yeah, I like to work for money - not work to just work cuz its fun.:laughing:

~Matt


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## Shado

TOOL_5150 said:


> Yeah, I like to work for money - not work to just work cuz its fun.:laughing:
> 
> ~Matt


I hear you...I have better things to do with my time....but, they don't pay the bills.


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## 480sparky

Shado said:


> Uhh....don't you charge it to the customer and make a profit? Or just give to them free of charge?


Ever consider you're bidding against others, and _they_ have the wherewithall to know they can shave off a couple bucks by feeding the panel with the breaker in the bottom and still be perfectly legal?


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## Bob Badger

TOOL_5150 said:


> I will have a few pics from my current job here toward the end of the week. One panel will have 3/0 coming up the side and to the top of the main breaker, and the other will have #2 going up the site to the lugs. Its a standard the company has set.


So they set a hack standard? :laughing:

IMO needlessly filling gutter space with large conductors is just poor practice.


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## Speedy Petey

Bob Badger said:


> IMO needlessly filling gutter space with large conductors is just poor practice.


Forget the extra cost. THIS is my main gripe.


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## ralph

I guess you get the point. Making money, saving the wire because I turned a load center around. just trying to save from buying material that I dont need. That stuff adds up after a while.
When I pull romex, all I want to see is about a foot past the box. I go nuts when some of the hired help leavs 2 or 3 feet.


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## Jim Port

Heard of one guy in NJ that got a red tag using a a bottom feed into the main at the top. Inspector cited "as short as practical" was not meet as the main should have been at the bottom.


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## steelersman

Jim Port said:


> Heard of one guy in NJ that got a red tag using a a bottom feed into the main at the top. Inspector cited "as short as practical" was not meet as the main should have been at the bottom.


 
That's awesome! I agree. I prefer to work smarter, not harder.


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## Shado

480sparky said:


> Ever consider you're bidding against others, and _they_ have the wherewithall to know they can shave off a couple bucks by feeding the panel with the breaker in the bottom and still be perfectly legal?


I understand the logic there 480... I definately don't have a problem with feeding at bottom of panel, have done it several times in the past myself. But I have *yet *to meet or know an EC who calculates/bids to the *exact* length of wire for services. You've heard it here numerous times how they add 3-5 ft extra in their order to be safe. With that, it doesn't matter if top or bottom fed, as there is enough wire. Perhaps it is done at bottom to have rabbit maybe.


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## NolaTigaBait

I always add a couple feet as well. The thing I wanted to avoid was the extra wire taking up space in the panel. I took some pics of the service, but I lost the damn cord for my camera. If I find it, I'll post the pics.


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## electricalperson

i prefer to install the main breaker at the bottom in certain situations. i HATE it when the service conductors run up the side. no room for branch circuits and it covers the EGC bar or neutral bar and pisses me off


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## Shado

NolaTigaBait said:


> I always add a couple feet as well. The thing I wanted to avoid was the extra wire taking up space in the panel. I took some pics of the service, but I lost the damn cord for my camera. If I find it, I'll post the pics.


You mean the USB cord to transfer the pics? Bummer. Your camera don't have a SD card to pull and put in PC directly?


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## NolaTigaBait

Shado said:


> You mean the USB cord to transfer the pics? Bummer. Your camera don't have a SD card to pull and put in PC directly?


It's a SONY, they some special memory card. I could go to the store and burn a copy and post it. I'll do that when I'm done the job.


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## ralph

I never said anything about calculating bids on service wire. I said saving wire , which saves me money. In most of my work, I measure pretty tight before ordering. Bidding isnt as tight as you can imagine.


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## bobelectric

480sparky said:


> Why does just about every panel have this near the line terminals if there was only 'one way' to mount the panel?:


 Gee, I thought "3N17" was a catalog number.


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## 480sparky

bobelectric said:


> Gee, I thought "3N17" was a catalog number.


Just like the 710 cap under your truck hood.........:laughing:


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## bobelectric

My wife is charge of vehicle maintenance.


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## kbsparky

InPhase277 said:


> There's still a couple brands with a breaker that operates vertically: GE, and Siemens and CH.....


Last time I looked both the Cutler Hammer CH type and BR type panels utilized horizontally operable main breakers. They are, in fact, interchangeable with each other.

GE took a step backwards, IMO. They used to have the TQD main breakers which could be reversed for a bottom feed application if needed. Now, they use what looks like a couple of 100 Amp breakers strapped together to make a 200 Amp. CHEEP, if you ask me ....


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## Toronto Sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> It's a SONY, they some special memory card. I could go to the store and burn a copy and post it. I'll do that when I'm done the job.


Sony uses Memory Sticks .. Most readers can read them .
Often they go in the same slot as the sd


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## NolaTigaBait

Toronto Sparky said:


> Sony uses Memory Sticks .. Most readers can read them .
> Often they go in the same slot as the sd


Nope, they don't.....i tried it, doesn't work.


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## 480sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> Nope, they don't.....i tried it, doesn't work.


Strange. I have 3 card readers and one laptop and memory sticks all go in the same slot as my SD cards.

Yours must not be able to read memory sticks.


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## NolaTigaBait

480sparky said:


> Strange. I have 3 card readers and one laptop and memory sticks all go in the same slot as my SD cards.
> 
> Yours must not be able to read memory sticks.


My laptop slot says: SD/SDIO/MMC...The card for my camera is too small to fit in.


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## 480sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> My laptop slot says: SD/SDIO/MMC...The card for my camera is too small to fit in.


SD = secure digital.
SDIO = secure digital input/output
MMC = multi media card

For Sony memory sticks, you need MS or MSPD.


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## Toronto Sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> My laptop slot says: SD/SDIO/MMC...The card for my camera is too small to fit in.


Other way to go is a USB Muticard reader.
Under $20 normally. 

Unless Sony has a mini memory stick like those mini SD cards that need an adapter.

My computer has a little wider opening within the SD slot that allows for Memory sticks smaller width.


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## Toronto Sparky

Would like to get a hold of a Sim card reader.. Anyone seen them around anymore?
I am told there are too many slight variations to sim cards to be able to make a reader that will work on all of them so they discontinued making them.


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## forqnc

NolaTigaBait said:


> My laptop slot says: SD/SDIO/MMC...The card for my camera is too small to fit in.


 Not certain of the technical Jargon, but I had to buy a SD adapter to plug my microscopic phone card into, then the SD adapter plugged into a USB adapter, which plugged into the computer. Got it from Radio Shack.


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## steelersman

I'm thinking you have the same as what I'm talking about here:

Bad pic quality due to it being taken from my phone camera since my wife lost the charger for the digital camera.


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## 480sparky

Here ya go:









Supports CampactFlash I & II, Microdrive, Secure Digital, XD, MultiMedia-Card(MMC), Reduced Size Multimedia Card (RS-MMC), Memory Stick Pro, Memory Stick, Memory Stick Duo, Memory Stick Pro Duo, and Mini Secure Digital card (mini-SD)......... all for a whopping $2.46.

Oh, and you can write to the card, too.


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## bigtoe1340

*Phoenix Electrician*

There is never a good reason to do this but I believe it is legal for an indoor rated panel. For an exterior rated panel there is no way. In any event it will look like a mistake.
Tony Dolce 
Meade Electric 
http://www.meadeelectric.biz


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## steelersman

Nonsense!


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## NolaTigaBait

Went to radioshack and got an adapter...
There you go, panels "upside down"...I'll post the after picks when I skin the panel in.


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## steelersman

I see nothing wrong with putting panels in "upside down" as there isn't an upside or downside, however it irritates me to no end to see outlets installed upside down or ground prong up. It's a damn crime.


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## 480sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> Went to radioshack and got an adapter...
> There you go, panels "upside down"...I'll post the after picks when I skin the panel in.


Dang, that look sick... upside panels! What hack work!! Here, let me straighten that up for you:


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## NolaTigaBait

ahhhhhhhh...much mo betta. Thanks 480


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## NolaTigaBait

Here's the meter... Think it's high enough?...:laughing:...Before I get any noise about this...I already talked to the poco and they said it will be ok to do this. This is a fishing camp that I'm wiring. The camp is outside of the levees and has no protection from flooding. Thats probably 20 feet in the air. It's going to be an underground feed also.


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## 480sparky

NolaTigaBait said:


> Here's the meter... Think it's high enough?...:laughing:...Before I get any noise about this...I already talked to the poco and they said it will be ok to do this. This is a fishing camp that I'm wiring. The camp is outside of the levees and has no protection from flooding. Thats probably 20 feet in the air. It's going to be an underground feed also.


What ya crawling in the window for?


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## NolaTigaBait

You in a mood today or what?:laughing:


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## NolaTigaBait

bigtoe1340 said:


> There is never a good reason to do this but I believe it is legal for an indoor rated panel. For an exterior rated panel there is no way. In any event it will look like a mistake.
> Tony Dolce
> Meade Electric
> http://www.meadeelectric.biz


It's pretty obvious that it can't be done on an exterior panel. You're no Econolight electric!


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## Speedy Petey

bigtoe1340 said:


> There is never a good reason to do this but I believe it is legal for an indoor rated panel.


Never a good reason to do what?


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## MDShunk

bigtoe1340 said:


> There is never a good reason to do this but I believe it is legal for an indoor rated panel.


Man, you seriously need to get out more.


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## zss42002

I dont see a problem installing panel upside down or downside up either way you look at it. But heres a new one. How about installing a panel sideways? went to do a service call today and what do i encounter. a sideways panel. Isnt this against code?? has anyone done it before? its a first for me.


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## RePhase277

zss42002 said:


> I dont see a problem installing panel upside down or downside up either way you look at it. But heres a new one. How about installing a panel sideways? went to do a service call today and what do i encounter. a sideways panel. Isnt this against code?? has anyone done it before? its a first for me.


I have seen it, and I don't particularly have a problem with it, but it is a violation because all the breakers on one side will be on in the down position.


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## 480sparky

zss42002 said:


> I dont see a problem installing panel upside down or downside up either way you look at it. But heres a new one. How about installing a panel sideways? went to do a service call today and what do i encounter. a sideways panel. Isnt this against code?? has anyone done it before? its a first for me.


 
You can install a panel sideways, but all the breakers, inlcuding the main, installed must comply with 240.81.


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## drsparky

:001_tongue:If you install the main breaker on top, will be upside down in Australia?:stuart:


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## froggie9189

*stoopid*

What makes it upside down is the labels in the panel cover. Now who's stoopid?


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## 480sparky

froggie9189 said:


> What makes it upside down is the labels in the panel cover. Now who's stoopid?


They're printed both ways or sideways. Or come with another label.


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## froggie9189

I almost always use square D. Never got a second label. Upside down "1" is at the bottom. What about the main lugs? If you install upside down do you still put them at 5 1/2 feet? I'm really just causing trouble here. You can do what you want, it'll just give me more work when you show a customer some jack leg upside down crap.


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## 480sparky

froggie9189 said:


> I almost always use square D. Never got a second label. Upside down "1" is at the bottom. What about the main lugs? If you install upside down do you still put them at 5 1/2 feet? I'm really just causing trouble here. You can do what you want, it'll just give me more work when you show a customer some jack leg upside down crap.


5½' feet has nothing to do with the lugs.

And why 5½ feet?


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## froggie9189

Just talked to two of my favorite inspectors. They don't like panels upside down. That's good enough for me! One told me he looks at a job a lot more thoroughly if he sees one.


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## McClary’s Electrical

5 and a half feet???????? talk about a number pulled out of a hat!:no:


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## McClary’s Electrical

froggie9189 said:


> Just talked to two of my favorite inspectors. They don't like panels upside down. That's good enough for me! One told me he looks at a job a lot more thoroughly if he sees one.


 Bull,,,,,I don't believe a word of that! :no:


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## RePhase277

froggie9189 said:


> Just talked to two of my favorite inspectors. They don't like panels upside down. That's good enough for me! One told me he looks at a job a lot more thoroughly if he sees one.


It makes not one damn what the inspector "likes". It makes not one damn how closely he looks at a job, if it is done properly.


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## froggie9189

exactly. that's why my inspectors don't put my jobs under a microscope. They spend more time talking about the weather (GPS and a half hour required per inspection) than looking. For the record, I understand it's perfectly legal to do this. One other observation: have a game plan BEFORE you take remove the knockout for the service. Also, 5 1/2 feet might be an arbitrary number, so call it eye level. Buncha' grumps...


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## froggie9189

keep defending sloppy work.


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## NolaTigaBait

froggie9189 said:


> exactly. that's why my inspectors don't put my jobs under a microscope. They spend more time talking about the weather (GPS and a half hour required per inspection) than looking. For the record, I understand it's perfectly legal to do this. One other observation: have a game plan BEFORE you take remove the knockout for the service. Also, 5 1/2 feet might be an arbitrary number, so call it eye level. Buncha' grumps...


Dude, you NEVER removed a ko on accident?...You pull numbers out of your ass and expect people not to call you on it. One track mind, I tell ya.


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## froggie9189

Hey, I apologize guys. Guess I'm just having a bad day. Everyone has made mistakes. Glad to see the knockout seal.


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## NolaTigaBait

froggie9189 said:


> keep defending sloppy work.


What is sloppy. I would call mounting the panel main side up and all of that wire in valuable gutter space...SLOPPY...._stoopid_:jester:


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## froggie9189

Hey bro', you can't tell me you have so many circuits that you have no more room for 4 feet of SEU. I can fill a 40 space panel, use tandems on my single poles, and use SER and make it neat. How are you running out of space? I already apologized. Be a man and accept it. I also explained how I came up with that number. I also NEVER called anyone stupid. Guess you have to resort to that.


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## RePhase277

Why do the main lugs need to be at eye level?


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## froggie9189

Guess you didn't really want a discussion, just a pat on the back.


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## steelersman

froggie9189 said:


> I also NEVER called anyone stupid. Guess you have to resort to that.


 froggie9189 
Junior Member

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: florida
Posts: 11 









*stoopid* 
What makes it upside down is the labels in the panel cover. Now who's stoopid?


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## froggie9189

Actually, that's a good point. It's just to keep the main accessible. Not a valid point on my part if the main is at the bottom. I really was just stirring the pot. Guess it worked


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## 480sparky

froggie9189 said:


> Just talked to two of my favorite inspectors. They don't like panels upside down. ..........


Then I, for one, would not consider that inspector a professional. Do you let the inspector tell you how to bend your conduit? How to pull wires? Or, God forbid, ground up or down?

(Yea, mods, I know...... but I'm just tryin' to make point here. :whistling2



froggie9189 said:


> Hey bro', you can't tell me you have so many circuits that you have no more room for 4 feet of SEU. I can fill a 40 space panel, use tandems on my single poles, and use SER and make it neat. .........


So can I. But why pay for something you don't need? Not only the additional cable to feed the main going from the bottom to the top, but also all the extra branch circuit conductors because you've lowered all the branch circuit breakers several inches.... multiply that by the number of circuits and it adds up.


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## NolaTigaBait

froggie9189 said:


> Guess you didn't really want a discussion, just a pat on the back.


How do you figure?...My first inclination was to mount main side down to save gutter space...Then I started thinking about what others would do. The over-whelming majority felt like the installation was fine.


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## McClary’s Electrical

I'll maintain til my dying day that, a BOTTOM FED panel, with the main at the TOP, is signs of either an amature, or an old timer set in his ways. and neither one is impressive:whistling2:


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## user5941

480sparky said:


> Why does just about every panel have this near the line terminals if there was only 'one way' to mount the panel?:


 In case you fall off your bar stool


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## Toronto Sparky

Just hang it sideways..
That way the load will stay balanced.


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## Bob Badger

froggie9189 said:


> keep defending sloppy work.


What the hell you talking about?

Are you saying installing the panel in the way that makes the most sense is somehow sloppy work?


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## captkirk

As far as Im concerned you can pin this argument right next to the "Ground up or down question".


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## Shado

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'll maintain til my dying day that, a BOTTOM FED panel, with the main at the TOP, is signs of either an amature, or an old timer set in his ways. and neither one is impressive:whistling2:


Ouch!!.....:blink:


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## TOOL_5150

Bob Badger said:


> So they set a hack standard? :laughing:
> 
> IMO needlessly filling gutter space with large conductors is just poor practice.


Call it what you will, I know my work is way above average. :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150

TO add to my post above, If at all possible, when I do run the occasional feeder up the side of a panel, I fill that side up, so noone else has to deal with the "crowded space"

The panels I use have plenty of room for feeders and 20 branch circuits, but to each, his own.

~Matt


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