# Horse Barn Codes?



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Im putting a service on a barn today. I'm running uf and using dust proof boxes and covers for the two switches and receptacle. Also using vapor proof lamps turned up. Anything else I need to be aware of?


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

vapor proof lamps turned up???? huh??

uf?? why not conduit??? exposed uf is "hack"


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Equipotential Plane.


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## ErOcK (Sep 17, 2010)

Emt and compression fittings they chew anything they can including that tasty grey UF


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

It is an existing barn with 8 1/2 ft ceilings. Customer wants one light and one recep. Wants in on the CHEAP. The lights will be mounted on top of ceiling joists facing up because the hourses could hit them facing down. The barn was wired in NM and customer was happy with it and thats why we are using uf and not conduit. Has 2 horses. Its a small place.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Innovative said:


> vapor proof lamps turned up???? huh??
> 
> uf?? why not conduit??? exposed uf is "hack"




Customer states what he wants. It's legal so I price it that way.


Had he not requested the cheapest price it would be in conduit.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

ErOcK said:


> Emt and compression fittings they chew anything they can including that tasty grey UF




There is no wiring in any place the horses can get to.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Equipotential Plane.



It's an existing barn with a dirt floor so I think I'm ok without one.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Customer states what he wants. It's legal so I price it that way.
> 
> 
> Had he not requested the cheapest price it would be in conduit.


 

I beg to differ, UF exposed in a horse barn is not legal

340.10(4), which refers you to section II of 334, which makes your install illegal

UF in an "other than dwelling unit" is supposed to be in a wall with a 15 minute fire barrier


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Take a rambling walk through 547 and see if anything raises a flag for ya.


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## lectricboy (Mar 11, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> It is an existing barn with 8 1/2 ft ceilings. Customer wants one light and one recep. Wants in on the CHEAP. The lights will be mounted on top of ceiling joists facing up because the hourses could hit them facing down. The barn was wired in NM and customer was happy with it and thats why we are using uf and not conduit. Has 2 horses. Its a small place.


What kind of horses are we talking about? Thourobreds or Ol' Alpo? There are horses here in KY that could put everyone on this site out of business if they were electrocuted. I advise caution!!!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I beg to differ, UF exposed in a horse barn is not legal
> 
> 340.10(4), which refers you to section II of 334, which makes your install illegal
> 
> UF in an "other than dwelling unit" is supposed to be in a wall with a 15 minute fire barrier


Wow! Good catch. You've shown me that you are more than just a nice body in a bikini.:thumbsup:


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## ErOcK (Sep 17, 2010)

nobody could knock you for emt and bell boxes but cost is what kills you there i can only imagine what boxes and connectors your using
The idea everyone on this forum subscribes to is ,If your doing work in a place even if nobody else notices/cares and everything else is totally fkd your job will be the one thing that can pass code for years to come.Even though its only two horses it is nice to know that every guy on this forum thats ever held a pair of kleins in their hand can give their blessing on the materials and methods


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ErOcK said:


> nobody could knock you for emt and bell boxes but cost is what kills you there.........



Right. Let's just throw safety out the window if it 'costs too much'. Screw it. Who needs it anyway?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ErOcK said:


> nobody could knock you for emt and bell boxes but cost is what kills you there i can only imagine what boxes and connectors your using
> The idea everyone on this forum subscribes to is ,If your doing work in a place even if nobody else notices/cares and everything else is totally fkd your job will be the one thing that can pass code for years to come.Even though its only two horses it is nice to know that every guy on this forum thats ever held a pair of kleins in their hand can give their blessing on the materials and methods


How about when the poster is done with the job he just sends us images and a copy of the permit?


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

Last horse barn we did was all emt and mc cable. What the horses can't reach to chew on the mice take care of.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I beg to differ, UF exposed in a horse barn is not legal
> 
> 340.10(4), which refers you to section II of 334, which makes your install illegal
> 
> UF in an "other than dwelling unit" is supposed to be in a wall with a 15 minute fire barrier



Not if it is permitted elsewhere in the code which it is in 547.5. UF is a listed wiring method for the barn. 


I did it just like an unfinished garage. No wires are subject to damage. I sleeved the uf with pvc and sealed the end with fire caulk to keep the dust out. Would I rather of ran emt and made it look better than the old barn......Nah it's an old barn and the customer got what he wanted.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Wow! Good catch. You've shown me that you are more than just a nice body in a bikini.:thumbsup:



I don't think he is correct. Article 547 allows it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

lectricboy said:


> What kind of horses are we talking about? Thourobreds or Ol' Alpo? There are horses here in KY that could put everyone on this site out of business if they were electrocuted. I advise caution!!!




Just a couple of riding horses. Barn had power but the burried uf (which I would never do) broke. The wiring in it was really unsafe. I ripped it all out and added a 100a service, a flood light on a photocell, 1 gfi and 2 lights. 2 circuits total.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> How about when the poster is done with the job he just sends us images and a copy of the permit?



I'll be glad to..........


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Not if it is permitted elsewhere in the code which it is in 547. UF is a listed wiring method for the barn.
> 
> 
> I did it just like an unfinished garage. No wires are subject to damage. I sleeved the uf with pvc and sealed the end with fire caulk to keep the dust out.


 

Yes, it's a permitted wiring method in the barn. I'll give you that. So that means you are allowed to install uf in the barn in accordance with article 340.

Just because it's a permitted wiring method in 547 doesn't absolve you from the requirements of 340. 
340.10 (4) directly states that uf ran in the manner that you are proposing SHALL COMPLY with part II and III of article 334.


Although most inspectors won't ding you for it, you're still proposing an illegal installation.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, it's a permitted wiring method in the barn. I'll give you that. So that means you are allowed to install uf in the barn in accordance with article 340.
> 
> Just because it's a permitted wiring method in 547 doesn't absolve you from the requirements of 340.
> 340.10 (4) directly states that uf ran in the manner that you are proposing SHALL COMPLY with part II and III of article 334.
> ...




It's sleeved in pvc down the wall. There are wires coming up the wall at panel and going down for switch. So I'm thinking I'm ok. What do you think? 
I am asking this not being a smart ass.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> It's sleeved in pvc down the walls. So I'm thinking I'm ok. What do you think?
> I am asking this not being a smart ass.


 

I think that would do fine.

AFWIW, my last barn was uf, I know how country people are. i live in the sticks.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Romex of ANY kind in a barn is a bad idea. The outer jacket will dry rot in time, and then the inner insulation will rot....then you get to do it again. 

In my opinion, romex in a barn is work done by weekend warrior types.
In my opinion, conduit in abarn is work done by a proffesional.

Ever notice how $ effects peoples decisions???? I wont put romex in a barn, unless for temporary. EMT or RMC. If a hog barn, PVC & stainless screws. 


All depends on your outlook I guess...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I think that would do fine.
> 
> AFWIW, my last barn was uf, I know how country people are. i live in the sticks.



He said I want 1 outlet and 2 lights. I want it as cheap as possible. I have no plans to ever add any circuits. A 100 amp was way overkill. He wanted a little light and an outlet for his trailer to plug into. He almost had a heart attack at my original proposal in emt. I worked him one up in uf and we did the job. His comment was it's just a barn and in a few years I plan to build a bigger one. So it's sorta a temp wiring method anyway....


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I would have done the UF sleeved with PVC in a minute. Although I would have used a FA and a UF cord grip on the end of the sleeves instead of fire caulk.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Romex of ANY kind in a barn is a bad idea. The outer jacket will dry rot in time, and then the inner insulation will rot....then you get to do it again. ...


That uf insulation will out live me and you IMO.





JacksonburgFarmer said:


> In my opinion, romex in a barn is work done by weekend warrior types.
> In my opinion, conduit in abarn is work done by a proffesional....



I run a sucessful EC business. I quoted doing it the way I would do my own barn. He didn't want to pony up the money. Asked if there was any way to make it cheaper? I said sure. I can run uf. Hack or not he is a satisfied paying customer and will most likely use us again.





JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Romex Ever notice how $ effects peoples decisions???? I wont put romex in a barn, unless for temporary. EMT or RMC. If a hog barn, PVC & stainless screws.
> All depends on your outlook I guess...



I will do whatever the PAYING customer WANTS me to do if it's legal to do so.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I would have done the UF sleeved with PVC in a minute. Although I would have used a FA and a UF cord grip on the end of the sleeves instead of fire caulk.



Yea but that would of been too professional ....this was a hack install..:whistling2::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Yea but that would of been too professional ....this was a hack install..:whistling2::laughing:


Oh ya I forgot 'bout that.:laughing: I don't get the UF bad mentality. You didn't just throw the sh1t where ever right, you strapped and made it look good right? Someone needs to show me where the problem is here cause I don't see one.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Oh ya I forgot 'bout that.:laughing: I don't get the UF bad mentality. You didn't just throw the sh1t where ever right, you strapped and made it look good right? Someone needs to show me where the problem is here cause I don't see one.




Any structure that does not have finished walls looks like crap anyway. IMO the uf looks no worse. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Any structure that does not have finished walls looks like crap anyway. IMO the uf looks no worse. :thumbsup:


:no: I will have to post pictures of the next well station control shed I do. One can make a wood shed look like a million bucks. Some unfinished structures do look like crap though.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> :no: I will have to post pictures of the next well station control shed I do. One can make a wood shed look like a million bucks. Some unfinished structures do look like crap though.





I'm talking about open studs look like crap.As far as the work inside one... I can make an unfinished garage look good also.:thumbsup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Even if I had to use raceway, 

I'd opt for plastic pipe before EMT.


For some reason though, plastic FS boxes are not cheap.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Just checked online the barn did pass inspection. I'm headed there in the morning to put the flood lights, lights, gfi and switches in.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I stopped reading the whole thread but.. I would consider stubbing up in EMT vs PVC. I'm assuming that everything is exposed. Explosion proof lights? If you are going that far then I have a hard seeing using UF and the other wiring methods in that area. I'd go with EMT stubs. Metal boxes. NM in the overhead. Flourescents. I would also find out if there is a classification on this structure and area. If not it's just a dirt floor shop to me.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I stopped reading the whole thread but.. I would consider stubbing up in EMT vs PVC..


Customer wanted his plastic carlon 2 gang box and dust cover reused.:whistling2: He wanted cheap he got cheap. 







nitro71 said:


> I'm assuming that everything is exposed. Explosion proof lights? If you are going that far then I have a hard seeing using UF and the other wiring methods in that area. .



The wiring is only exposed on top of the rafters. I sleeved it in the only two places the wiring comes down. I assume an open bulb is not a good idea with hay laying around. That wiring method is legal and fit the customers budget. He is happy and so am I.








nitro71 said:


> I'd go with EMT stubs. Metal boxes. NM in the overhead. Flourescents. I would also find out if there is a classification on this structure and area. If not it's just a dirt floor shop to me.






Customers words to me..... I want a light and a recep in an old barn that is smaller than your average 2 car garage I don't care what the wiring looks like as long as it is safe....I up sold him the flood light. I give the customer what they are willing to pay for. If I didn't do it he would of hired someone else to do it.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm not criticizing your install, you did ask for comments about it : ) Sounds like you did a decent enough job. I personally won't give the customer what he wants in all cases. I'll work with them though and with what they have to come up with a reasonable solution.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I'm not criticizing your install, you did ask for comments about it : ) Sounds like you did a decent enough job. I personally won't give the customer what he wants in all cases. I'll work with them though and with what they have to come up with a reasonable solution.




I didn't mean for the post to sound like that....I'm an ass and it's hard to camo that.

I did work him up a good as gold install that would last but he almost had a heart attack. I made it look as neat as possible. What was in there was soo bad he thinks the new install is a work of art...:laughing:If what they want is legal and I almost always will do it. Unless I see headaches ahead from what they want.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm with you on that, as long as it's code and it's what the customer wants then away I go. "Future" is a huge selling point. Everyone has grand ideas, that usually don't happen. But upselling for future seems to work well.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Do you know what a 4' two tube T8 flourescent draws for amps at 120V off the top of your head?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm going to say .5 amps at 120V.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> Do you know what a 4' two tube T8 flourescent draws for amps at 120V off the top of your head?



Like .7 on the one I'm looking at.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I didn't account for ballast loss, thanks! I'm planning a shop's circuits at the moment. I'm a dot your i, cross your t type of electrician.


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## ErOcK (Sep 17, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I would have done the UF sleeved with PVC in a minute. Although I would have used a FA and a UF cord grip on the end of the sleeves instead of fire caulk.



































I love these for Sjo cord apps


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ErOcK said:


>


Yeah, those things.


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## nicholas (Aug 5, 2010)

*horse barn code*



jwjrw said:


> Just a couple of riding horses. Barn had power but the burried uf (which I would never do) broke. The wiring in it was really unsafe. I ripped it all out and added a 100a service, a flood light on a photocell, 1 gfi and 2 lights. 2 circuits total.


(quote) i use gfci on all my circuits (except 220v) - romex-uf-pvc-emt-mc-what ever i and the owner decides -( regid pipe on my 220v) this covers/helps with physical damage, check with ahg inspector(quote)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

nicholas said:


> (quote) i use gfci on all my circuits (except 220v) - romex-uf-pvc-emt-mc-what ever i and the owner decides -( regid pipe on my 220v) this covers/helps with physical damage, check with ahg inspector(quote)


 

oh yeah?:whistling2:


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## nicholas (Aug 5, 2010)

you know if you can use ch40 and/or sch80 pvc (some areas are different) for your outside service work why wouldnt you use smaller sizes (3/4 - 1/2 - etc) for your sleve work where needed, now you got to ground that emt with yourbell box, i think i would use pvc sw box to incl., pvc sleve and again iam back to the gfci breakers


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nicholas said:


> you know if you can use ch40 and/or sch80 pvc (some areas are different) for your outside service work why wouldnt you use smaller sizes (3/4 - 1/2 - etc) for your sleve work where needed, now you got to ground that emt with yourbell box, i think i would use pvc sw box to incl., pvc sleve and again iam back to the gfci breakers




One lighting circuit and one for the gfi recep. A gfi recep is half the cost of a gfi breaker. The panel is outside. It makes more sense to use a recep so the customer would not have to go to the panel to reset.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

nicholas said:


> (quote) i use gfci on all my circuits (except 220v) - romex-uf-pvc-emt-mc-what ever i and the owner decides -( regid pipe on my 220v) this covers/helps with physical damage, check with ahg inspector(quote)




I use gfi where required and only where required.....:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

ErOcK said:


>



I used the se type connectors into the fs boxes for lights. I saw no reason to waste an female adapter when fire caulk was cheap and works. On a normal job I would of went the extra step.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> How about when the poster is done with the job he just sends us images and a copy of the permit?




Here is the approved sticker........:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Here is the approved sticker........:thumbsup:


 You hack!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> You hack!




For a grand you too could have this 100a service with two circuits...:thumbsup:

Quality costs and he didn't want quality bad enough I guess...:no:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> For a grand you too could have this 100a service with two circuits...:thumbsup:
> 
> Quality costs and he didn't want quality bad enough I guess...:no:


Looks good, and you made money and its safe. :thumbsup:


Your still a hack though.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Looks good, and you made money and its safe. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Your still a hack though.



You forgot troll....
Looks like an old barn with a meter and a panel and some uf in it. Putting conduit in it would of been a waste of money IMO.:yes:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> You forgot troll....
> Looks like an old barn with a meter and a panel and some uf in it. Putting conduit in it would of been a waste of money IMO.:yes:


Yeah it would be. :yes: Most barns like that here are just done in all UF or NM, no sleeves even.


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## ErOcK (Sep 17, 2010)

Bah Duh Bum Dah Dah


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

ErOcK said:


> Bah Duh Bum Dah Dah


 Thanks for a very intelligent post.:whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ErOcK said:


> Bah Duh Bum Dah Dah


Thank you for this brilliant contribution. :laughing:


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Here is the approved sticker........:thumbsup:


 
Where are the two lights located realative to the feed supply and feed areas? I had two seperate service calls to move lights away from those areas because of the gnats and black flies swarming the light then dying. Falling into the feed and the horses picking up an illness. And a third instance where it was my own install with the same request about 9 months after the install.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

tates1882 said:


> Where are the two lights located realative to the feed supply and feed areas? I had two seperate service calls to move lights away from those areas because of the gnats and black flies swarming the light then dying. Falling into the feed and the horses picking up an illness. And a third instance where it was my own install with the same request about 9 months after the install.




I put them back right where the old ones were. No lights are over the stalls. They are in the middle portion. This is the only true barn I have done. That is good info but before the underground uf broke he had fluorscents over the feed areas.


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## ErOcK (Sep 17, 2010)

ErOcK said:


> Bah Duh Bum Dah Dah


Im Lovin it


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## Ima Fabricator (Oct 8, 2010)

*Sheds and Barns*



mcclary's electrical said:


> I beg to differ, UF exposed in a horse barn is not legal
> 
> 340.10(4), which refers you to section II of 334, which makes your install illegal
> 
> UF in an "other than dwelling unit" is supposed to be in a wall with a 15 minute fire barrier



You mean all those Sheds and Small Storage barns I did with 12-2 NM with no drywall are illegal?? We have the toughest Son of a Beotch inspector and he passed all of them???


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Ima Fabricator said:


> We have the toughest Son of a Beotch inspector and he passed all of them???


You're in Minnesota.Tough is very subjective - you betcha!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ibuzzard said:


> you betcha!


I think you are confusing Minnesota with Alaska. Alaska is where we keep the weird you betcha' chick. :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I think you are confusing Minnesota with Alaska. Alaska is where we keep the weird you betcha' chick. :laughing:




I'd do her.....:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I'd do her.....:thumbsup:


I liked her better until I figured out that pic of her with the rifle is a fake.


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## nicholas (Aug 5, 2010)

*pole barn circuit*



mcclary's electrical said:


> oh yeah?:whistling2:





jwjrw said:


> One lighting circuit and one for the gfi recep. A gfi recep is half the cost of a gfi breaker. The panel is outside. It makes more sense to use a recep so the customer would not have to go to the panel to reset.


the panel is inside - its physical damage iam concern about - if i used a gfi rec the source wire (circuit) to the rec is not protected unless i do the conduit thing in my case it was cheaper to go with breaker - this is a romex installation - owner was given options he selected this one


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