# Power cables ran through ceiling/walls?



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

I have always wondered about what types of cables are allowed to be installed in buildings. The confusion always comes up when a machine comes wired with a type of cable not found in chapter 3 of NEC, and is tied into the building wiring.

For example, I just connected a machine last week that is located outside. I fed the machine using pipe and wire, as usual. The HMI is located inside the building and came prewired with 3 cables: 1 profibus, and 2 other cables that carry line voltage (208v 3ph) and low voltage (24v dc). I don't know what type these 2 other cables are other than they're German because it didn't matter to me. I automatically proceeded to remove the cables from the control box and I ran pipe and wire out to the unit.

How many of you would have ran the factory (european) supplied cables and never thought twice?

I also have a side-question. Do you think that the profibus cable would be okay ran in the same metal raceway as my power? The 208v lines only feed the power supply for the hmi, and one of them runs through the e-stop.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> I have always wondered about what types of cables are allowed to be installed in buildings. The confusion always comes up when a machine comes wired with a type of cable not found in chapter 3 of NEC, and is tied into the building wiring.
> 
> For example, I just connected a machine last week that is located outside. I fed the machine using pipe and wire, as usual. The HMI is located inside the building and came prewired with 3 cables: 1 profibus, and 2 other cables that carry line voltage (208v 3ph) and low voltage (24v dc). I don't know what type these 2 other cables are other than they're German because it didn't matter to me. I automatically proceeded to remove the cables from the control box and I ran pipe and wire out to the unit.
> 
> ...


 


If the machine is a listed piece of equipment, they can do as they choose without following NEC. 
I worked on a crane, that because they needed flexibility in a certain cable, that paralled 14 #14's per phase to a 100 HP motor. Would you rip that out and install parallel 1/0's? You actually did more harm than good IMO

Think of it this way, does the wiring in your car have to follow NEC?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> How many of you would have ran the factory (european) supplied cables and never thought twice?


 

Me....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Me too assuming listed equipment.

It would be like rewiring a home range to meet the NEC, no point and not needed.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

The hmi is in the building, the machine is outside. I'm not talking about wiring on the machine itself. These cables would be considered permanent building wiring. They would pass through walls, pass over suspended ceilings, etc.. 

Hypothetically, using your logic, you could order a pre made factory, wired entirely in whatever kind of cable, and install it in a building, without any consideration to the NEC.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If the machine is a listed piece of equipment, they can do as they choose without following NEC.
> I worked on a crane, that because they needed flexibility in a certain cable, that paralled 14 #14's per phase to a 100 HP motor. Would you rip that out and install parallel 1/0's? You actually did more harm than good IMO
> 
> Think of it this way, does the wiring in your car have to follow NEC?


Where was the motor located in relation to crane? I'm assuming it was on the crane itself.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> Hypothetically, using your logic, you could order a pre made factory, wired entirely in whatever kind of cable, and install it in a building, without any consideration to the NEC.


 
If they get it listed as built, that's correct


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Here's another way to look at it. If I bought a refrigerator with a factory installed, 50' cord, could I run that cord into the wall, up into the attic, across the house to my panel, and plug it into a receptacle below the panel? It sure would be easier to run my branch circuit 12" to just below the panel, and then use the listed frige cord to connect from there. But we are not allowed to do that.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If they get it listed as built, that's correct


That changes once you've made it part of the building wiring, right? Article 300?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If the machine is a listed piece of equipment, they can do as they choose without following NEC.
> I worked on a crane, that because they needed flexibility in a certain cable, that paralled 14 #14's per phase to a 100 HP motor. Would you rip that out and install parallel 1/0's? You actually did more harm than good IMO
> 
> Think of it this way, does the wiring in your car have to follow NEC?


That 100 hp motor must be on the hoist trolley. They could have used welding cable. It must have been a cost issue. All the machines I worked on used Hoffmann wireways. WE always used all cabling furnished by the OEM.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

CFL said:


> Here's another way to look at it. If I bought a refrigerator with a factory installed, 50' cord, could I run that cord into the wall, up into the attic, across the house to my panel, and plug it into a receptacle below the panel? It sure would be easier to run my branch circuit 12" to just below the panel, and then use the listed frige cord to connect from there. But we are not allowed to do that.


You, as an electrical contractor, no :no:


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

360max said:


> You, as an electrical contractor, no :no:


OK, but what do you think of my original question?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Think of it this way, does the wiring in your car have to follow NEC?


If my car was permanently installed in my garage and the electrical system was in some way connected to my house system, and the connecting wiring was ran all the way to my kitchen, that wiring would have to comply with the NEC.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If the machine is a listed piece of equipment, they can do as they choose without following NEC. ..................... You actually did more harm than good IMO


What harm could I have caused by installing a superior wiring method?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The machine itself (including the pre-wired connection to the HMI), is wired to NFPA 79. Your branch circuit TO the machine is wired to NFPA 70. Big difference in methods and materials.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> What harm could I have caused by installing a superior wiring method?


 

You voided their listing when you removed their wiring.

Same as your 50' cord example. Cut the cord off and hardwire it. You just voided the listing


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You voided their listing when you removed their wiring.
> 
> Same as your 50' cord example. Cut the cord off and hardwire it. You just voided the listing


No, no, no. You don't cut the cord off, you plug it into a receptacle behind the frige.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The machine itself (including the pre-wired connection to the HMI), is wired to NFPA 79. Your branch circuit TO the machine is wired to NFPA 70. Big difference in methods and materials.


But how can you violate NEC in one instance and not another. By the way, I wanted to look at a copy of NFPA but couldn't.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CFL said:


> But how can you violate NEC in one instance and not another. By the way, I wanted to look at a copy of NFPA but couldn't.


The NEC does not apply to listed machinery. Get that straight, and you have no worries. If it's part of the machine, provided by or specified by the manufacturer, you're golden. The NEC (NFPA 70) stops at the connection to the lugs on the disconnect in the machine. After that, NFPA 79 takes over. Pretty simple, in reality.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Listed or not you cannot run rubber cord thru walls and ceilings-- I don't believe that is the intended use of the cord.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Listed or not you cannot run rubber cord thru walls and ceilings-- I don't believe that is the intended use of the cord.


But that is a building code not NEC thing I believe


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Trying to legislate common sense is a task no one should have to face:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::thumbsup:


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The NEC does not apply to listed machinery. Get that straight, and you have no worries. If it's part of the machine, provided by or specified by the manufacturer, you're golden. The NEC (NFPA 70) stops at the connection to the lugs on the disconnect in the machine. After that, NFPA 79 takes over. Pretty simple, in reality.


OK, but what does NFPA79 have to say about wiring methods? It seems like in order to get equipment listed, it would have to be inspected by some sort of standards. I don't see how something could be approved for use in ANY environment or country. I would think local codes would have to be followed in order to cover all the bases.

For example, when this machine was built, they didn't know what type of building it was going into, or environment.

I'm not trying to argue, because I believe you know what you're talking about. I'm just trying to completely understand.

Me being wrong on this means a lot of wasted time and money.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> Trying to legislate common sense is a task no one should have to face:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::thumbsup:


I don't understand this:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> But that is a building code not NEC thing I believe


No, that is an NEC thing. Even if it were a building code, electricians would still have to follow it.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Listed or not you cannot run rubber cord thru walls and ceilings-- I don't believe that is the intended use of the cord.


That has always been my thinking. Being that this machine is German, the cord may be an acceptable wiring method there.

The manual also says this machine has to be connected to residual current device, which it is not. I assume this is just a German/European requirement, but I will check with mfr after holiday just in case.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

CFL said:


> No, that is an NEC thing. Even if it were a building code, electricians would still have to follow it.



Got a code reference? The fire inspector is the one that looks for things like that here. It is a building code. And we may have to follow the building code but it AIN'T the NEC.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

CFL said:


> That has always been my thinking. Being that this machine is German, the cord may be an acceptable wiring method there.
> 
> The manual also says this machine has to be connected to residual current device, which it is not. I assume this is just a German/European requirement, but I will check with mfr after holiday just in case.



Is this machine UL listed or 3rd party?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Got a code reference? The fire inspector is the one that looks for things like that here. It is a building code. And we may have to follow the building code but it AIN'T the NEC.


NEC article 400.8 1,2,3,4.

Edit: missed (5) and (6)


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Is this machine UL listed or 3rd party?


Don't know, did not check.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

CFL said:


> NEC article 400.8 1,2,3,4.
> 
> Edit: missed (5) and (6)




The cord on the machine does not have to follow those rules.That is for permanent building wiring. This is a separate machine to be plugged into your building wiring....


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CFL said:


> Here's another way to look at it. If I bought a refrigerator with a factory installed, 50' cord, could I run that cord into the wall, up into the attic, across the house to my panel, and plug it into a receptacle below the panel?



If that is what the listing and labeling specified (and we know it would not) you would violate the code by not following that instruction.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Listed or not you cannot run rubber cord thru walls and ceilings-- I don't believe that is the intended use of the cord.


I have to disagree there, if those cords are part of listed and labeled equipment the NEC simply does not apply.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CFL said:


> That has always been my thinking. Being that this machine is German, the cord may be an acceptable wiring method there.


But does it have a USA recognized NRTL sticker on it?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> The cord on the machine does not have to follow those rules.That is for permanent building wiring. This is a separate machine to be plugged into your building wiring....


Once you run the cable through a wall, ceiling, floor, raceway, or attached to a building, it becomes a substitute for permanent building wiring. In the case of my machine, nothing is being plugged in, and the wiring consists of power cables from hmi to the machine.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've seen long discussions on these boards about how you can have a receptacle above a drop ceiling, but simply cannot legally plug anything into it because of 400.8(5) which prohibits cords above drop ceilings.

Now we're taking the stance that because cords are not "permanent wiring" this does not apply, and they are also allowed to be run through walls? Seems like some of y'all are making a switch.

-John


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> But does it have a USA recognized NRTL sticker on it?


I would assume so because of the facility where it is located, but I'll check.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> I've seen long discussions on these boards about how you can have a receptacle above a drop ceiling, but simply cannot legally plug anything into it because of 400.8(5) which prohibits cords above drop ceilings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems that way to me as well. A projector probably is not listed to be plugged in above a suspended ceiling, but the installer is expected to follow local codes.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Consider this, I have never seen a German piece of equipment that uses 'rubber cords' they use PVC cords. More to the point they use a cord that is not to be found at all in Article 400. That being the case if the NEC applied to those cords we could not use them at all, not even 6" of them on the machine itself.

This is no different than trying to apply the NEC to appliances or to power company work. You can't make the NEC 'fit' because it was never intended to apply to those items.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Rockyd*  
_Trying to legislate common sense is a task no one should have to face:whistling2::thumbsup:_




CFL said:


> I don't understand this:whistling2:


If the protocol for the machine was followed, there won't be a problem. Everyone wants to over think the issue. Put it in the way it was designed, and it 'll work.

People are wanting to apply all sorts of rules, that just aren't required. I's lean towards 400.7 and 400.8. These are windows aimed at common sense. Rather that be sayng "NO" to everything, sometimes it's better to go with the program that allows the functionality of whatever it is your hooking up.

As long as it is conceptually possible, reasonably safe, and can be steered through the legal system enough to qualify it as legal (regardless of how many NFPA codes and international requirements are written), then at least give it a chance.

If we let law be written on how people feel, rather than what science recommends in the technical arena, the wright brothers would have never flown at Kittyhawke, Tesla would have never invented motors, etc.

Legislating "common sense" is a dangerous road to even look down...

That's what we are looking at here. I'd say put the cords in some kind of raceway. Call for inspection, and talk with the inspector if it looks like it's needed. Depending on the feedback, you'll know which way to go.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Rockyd said:


> Originally Posted by *Rockyd*
> _Trying to legislate common sense is a task no one should have to face:whistling2::thumbsup:_
> 
> 
> ...


True, but the NEC simply does not apply to this machine. The NEC stops at the end of the branch circuit feeding the machine. Close the cover on the NEC after that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> the NEC simply does not apply to this machine. The NEC stops at the end of the branch circuit feeding the machine. Close the cover on the NEC after that.


I agree.

This is one the types of things were people try to drag the NEC into it when they should not.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Consider this, I have never seen a German piece of equipment that uses 'rubber cords' they use PVC cords. More to the point they use a cord that is not to be found at all in Article 400. That being the case if the NEC applied to those cords we could not use them at all, not even 6" of them on the machine itself.
> 
> This is no different than trying to apply the NEC to appliances or to power company work. You can't make the NEC 'fit' because it was never intended to apply to those items.


I never mentioned rubber cords but I agree they are always pvc and the cord is not mentioned in Article 400. The problem with that theory is that I could start running all of branch circuits and feeders with a cord not listed in Article 400 and therefore the NEC would not apply and I could get away with murder.

I would argue that if the cord is not even listed in 400 or 300, even more the reason it shouldn't be a permanent wiring method.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> True, but the NEC simply does not apply to this machine. The NEC stops at the end of the branch circuit feeding the machine. Close the cover on the NEC after that.


Then hook it up! Get someone here of authority to test it out! 

Sometimes rules are wrote to control the masses....we're the exception.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I agree.


Same. You people over think things lol.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> True, but the NEC simply does not apply to this machine. The NEC stops at the end of the branch circuit feeding the machine. Close the cover on the NEC after that.


So when we leave the machine and travel through the building, no other codes apply other than nfpa79, even though we are no longer on, in, or around that machine?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CFL said:


> I never mentioned rubber cords but I agree they are always pvc and the cord is not mentioned in Article 400. The problem with that theory is that I could start running all of branch circuits and feeders with a cord not listed in Article 400 and therefore the NEC would not apply and I could get away with murder.
> 
> I would argue that if the cord is not even listed in 400 or 300, even more the reason it shouldn't be a permanent wiring method.


No, you're wrong about that. The NEC applies to building wiring, and as such, you need to follow it. You can't do your branch circuits in cord, save for tray cable. 

In this case, we're talking about the wiring of a machine. Specifically, the machine's HMI power feed, which originates in a listed NFPA 79 governed industrial control panel.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CFL said:


> So when we leave the machine and travel through the building, no other codes apply other than nfpa79, even though we are no longer on, in, or around that machine?


Bingo. You need to get out more. This is quite normally the case on production lines, where the NEC rules stop at the industrial control panels, and stuff on the lines is wired up in cord from the industrial control panels. The NEC stops at the listed equipment.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Same. You people over think things lol.


Don't be sheep and follow the crowd. 




Now, get offended and tell me exactly why I'm wrong, please.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CFL said:


> Don't be sheep and follow the crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because you're applying the NEC to a piece of equipment that is not under the jurisdiction of that document. I think I've said that a half-dozen times to far.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> True, but the NEC simply does not apply to this machine. The NEC stops at the end of the branch circuit feeding the machine. Close the cover on the NEC after that.


 Alright, so then do you agree or disagree with the idea that we cannot legally plug in something above a drop ceiling?

-John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

CFL said:


> Don't be sheep and follow the crowd.


I own a company that does millions in controls and machines a year.

If the cables came with the listed machine the NEC does not apply. If you supplied the cable and installed it separate of the listed package the NEC applies. BBQ and Marc are 100% on the money here.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> Don't be sheep and follow the crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You can't be told any more plainly than what you've already been told.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Bingo. You need to get out more. This is quite normally the case on production lines, where the NEC rules stop at the industrial control panels, and stuff on the lines is wired up in cord from the industrial control panels. The NEC stops at the listed equipment.


First of all, I wish I could get out more. I'm limited to where my boss sends my poor, broke ass.

Production lines seem like an extension of the equipment but I know you're just using that as one example.

All of this being said, I assume you would be in favor of the NEC to allow us to wire most applications with this same flexible cord.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> Alright, so then do you agree or disagree with the idea that we cannot legally plug in something above a drop ceiling?
> 
> -John


Don't even try to mix apples, with oranges


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> All of this being said, I assume you would be in favor of the NEC to allow us to wire most applications with this same flexible cord.


 

The NEC is fine as written. You're just trying to apply it to something it doesn't have jurisdiction over.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> Don't even try to mix apples, with oranges


 You act like I'm trying to troll, I'm not. It seems to me that cords are either subject to the provisions of this code or they aren't. 

I've always been under the impression that when I've put cords above a drop ceiling I was violating a code article. But now I'm reading that when the cord comes with the piece of equipment, the code doesn't apply. I don't know how to reconcile that.

-John


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Big John said:


> You act like I'm trying to troll, I'm not. It seems to me that cords are either subject to the provisions of this code or they aren't.
> 
> I've always been under the impression that when I've put cords above a drop ceiling I was violating a code article. But now I'm reading that when the cord comes with the piece of equipment, the code doesn't apply. I don't know how to reconcile that.
> 
> -John


I think this would be another thread, but will try it here. You can plug into a receptacle above a ceiling grid if you have the tiles out, and are working on a piece of machinery at that location. i have always thought it was for trouble shooting per 210.63.

I maybe wrong, and others will surely correct me if this is the case. But that's my $.02


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> But now I'm reading that when the cord comes with the piece of equipment, the code doesn't apply.


In the case of the projector we do not have to change the listed parts of the unit to comply with the code.

To change the cords interconnecting a large listed machine would be effecting the machines listing.

I know that ain't perfect but it is the best I can do.

If we try to apply the NEC to the interconnecting wiring of a large listed machine we will be opening a huge kettle of fish.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> You act like I'm trying to troll, I'm not. It seems to me that cords are either subject to the provisions of this code or they aren't.
> 
> I've always been under the impression that when I've put cords above a drop ceiling I was violating a code article. But now I'm reading that when the cord comes with the piece of equipment, the code doesn't apply. I don't know how to reconcile that.
> 
> -John


From now on, instead of installing a receptacle for a tv or other appliance, I'll just drill a hole through the wall and plug it into one in another room.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> In the case of the projector we do not have to change the listed parts of the unit to comply with the code.
> 
> To change the cords interconnecting a large listed machine would be effecting the machines listing.
> 
> ...


I can definitely see a major problem when considering hundreds (or alot, anyway) of cables interconnecting machinery in different parts of a building. I guess I'm looking at it differently because I'm only talking about a few circuits.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Big John said:


> You act like I'm trying to troll, I'm not. It seems to me that cords are either subject to the provisions of this code or they aren't.
> 
> I've always been under the impression that when I've put cords above a drop ceiling I was violating a code article. But now I'm reading that when the cord comes with the piece of equipment, the code doesn't apply. I don't know how to reconcile that.
> 
> -John


"Flexible Cord" to the NEC is the stuff you buy on rolls. A cordset on a UL listed piece of equipment is not a flexible cord, in the truest definition in the NEC.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> "Flexible Cord" to the NEC is the stuff you buy on rolls. A cordset on a UL listed piece of equipment is not a flexible cord, in the truest definition in the NEC.


 That's not an opinion I've heard before. I'll keep that in mind.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> "Flexible Cord" to the NEC is the stuff you buy on rolls. A cordset on a UL listed piece of equipment is not a flexible cord, in the truest definition in the NEC.


The cord on a projector is likely SPT and found in Table 400.4.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, I guess I'm stuck pulling the factory supplied cables through my raceway that was a total waste of time.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BBQ said:


> The cord on a projector is likely SPT and found in Table 400.4.


That's only trivial. What type of cord they mold a plug onto and install in a listed piece of equipment is inconsequential. If I take SPT myself, put a plug cap on the end, and install it in the knockout of a piece of equipment, now I'm using flexible cord covered by the NEC.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CFL said:


> Well, I guess I'm stuck pulling the factory supplied cables through my raceway that was a total waste of time.


 

If you do it that way, Be proud, you made the installation nicer.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That's only trivial. What type of cord they mold a plug onto and install in a listed piece of equipment is inconsequential.


That is your opinion and not one shared by inspectors.

There is no clear line between the NEC and appliances.

Here are just a few of the code sections that apply only to cord and plug connected equipment and on the appliance side of the plug.



> 422.46 Flatirons. Electrically heated smoothing irons shall
> be equipped with an identified temperature-limiting means.





> 422.49 High-Pressure Spray Washers. All single-phase
> cord-and-plug-connected high-pressure spray washing machines
> rated at 250 volts or less shall be provided with
> factory-installed ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
> ...





> 440.65 Leakage-Current Detector-Interrupter (LCDI)
> and Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). Single-phase
> cord-and-plug-connected room air conditioners shall be
> provided with factory-installed LCDI or AFCI protection.
> ...


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The cord on a projector is likely SPT and found in Table 400.4.


Alot of american equipment is wired with article 400 type cord (probably most, right?). I have ran this stuff all over machines. I just have not ever ran it through a building as if it were a piece of romex, mc, or whatever. I had been convinced it was wrong. 

Is there any reference other than the NEC that someone can give me to help me come to grips with this. I mean, when you learn from someone that you have much respect for and you follow his logic for your whole career, it's kind of hard to change your way of thinking immediately. I do have alot of respect for you guys though, and have learned alot here.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> The NEC does not apply to listed machinery. Get that straight, and you have no worries. If it's part of the machine, provided by or specified by the manufacturer, you're golden. The NEC (NFPA 70) stops at the connection to the lugs on the disconnect in the machine. After that, NFPA 79 takes over. Pretty simple, in reality.


If an air condition blower unit is supplied with a corded plug and installed above a drop ceiling, are you suggesting I can either run cord thru ceiling, or install outlet above ceiling, to power that blower unit just because it listed?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

360max said:


> If an air condition blower unit is supplied with a corded plug and installed above a drop ceiling, are you suggesting I can either run cord thru ceiling, or install outlet above ceiling, to power that blower unit just because it listed?


BBQ sums it up well here



BBQ said:


> In the case of the projector we do not have to change the listed parts of the unit to comply with the code.
> 
> To change the cords interconnecting a large listed machine would be effecting the machines listing.


And I've installed a bunch of various odd room AC units and parts in control shacks and many manufacture's manuals have language that reads something like this....



> To ensure that the unit operates safely and efficiently, it must be
> installed, operated, and maintained according to these installation
> and operating instructions and all local codes and ordinances,
> or, in their absence, *with the latest edition of the National Electrical
> Code*.





BBQ said:


> opening a huge kettle of fish.


Trying to be different today? :laughing:


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> "Flexible Cord" to the NEC is the stuff you buy on rolls. A cordset on a UL listed piece of equipment is not a flexible cord, in the truest definition in the NEC.


One of the poster's avatars show a duplex recepticle with an orange extension cord, passed through a hole large enough, in the wall for the molded plug to fit through. I don't think this can be considered as a substitute for permanent wiring.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

retiredsparktech said:


> I don't think this can be considered as a substitute for permanent wiring.


Of course a _cord set_ can't be used like that i_t's against it's listing_. It would also be an NFPA 1 violation. 


We aren't tossing out a blanket saying "just cause it's listed you can do whatever you want with the cord" it's more complicated and deep then that.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Of course a _cord set_ can't be used like that i_t's against it's listing_. It would also be an NFPA 1 violation.
> 
> 
> We aren't tossing out a blanket saying "just cause it's listed you can do whatever you want with the cord" it's more complicated and deep then that.


Is it complicated, or is it simple? Most of the answers I've gotten put things in real simple terms: NEC doesn't apply.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

CFL said:


> Is it complicated


It's complicated because the NEC is never the only code you have to know or the only one that applies to us, our work and the facilities we work in.

*But at the heart of your issue* *specifically *it is fairly simple, the NEC doesn't apply to your industrial machine.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> It's complicated because the NEC is never the only code you have to know or the only one that applies to us, our work and the facilities we work in.
> 
> *But at the heart of your issue* *specifically *it is fairly simple, the NEC doesn't apply to your industrial machine.


I'm trying hard to believe this, but how can a machine be immune to local codes ( NEC local to USA) just because it is listed? Keep in mind, and I know I'm repeating myself, I'm only concerned with the wiring that leaves the machine and ran through several layers of the building as if it were a substitute for permanent building wiring.


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## Netree (Sep 3, 2011)

CFL said:


> That has always been my thinking. Being that this machine is German, the cord may be an acceptable wiring method there.
> 
> The manual also says this machine has to be connected to residual current device, which it is not. I assume this is just a German/European requirement, but I will check with mfr after holiday just in case.


Generally speaking, IEC standards are more strict than NEC anyways. 



CFL said:


> Well, I guess I'm stuck pulling the factory supplied cables through my raceway that was a total waste of time.


On our machines, this is also a requirement of commissioning. We can't warranty equipment we had no control over.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I donno what else I, BBQ, MD Mcclary, jwjrw.... can say on this matter or put it any clearer.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I donno what else I, BBQ, MD Mcclary, jwjrw.... can say on this matter or put it any clearer.


Wow, you're part of the elite gang? You must feel that you are much wiser than I. 

You haven't said anything that someone else hadn't already said, so YOU cannot make anything any clearER.

I have to disagree with all of the above on this one. No one has presented a good enough reason for me to believe otherwise.

Ultimately this falls on the AHJ anyway. 

The NEC does not allow flexible cords to be installed as a substitute for permanent building wiring, bottom line. If you were to argue that the NEC does not apply because this is a listed industrial machine, then this listing would have to come along with it's own code to ensure that the installer follows the same rules that the listing agency is applying. I would think that this code would have to be specific to each machine.

What I'm trying to say is, we have to have standards to follow. It can't be anything goes. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for a qualified electrician, just a handy guy with common sense. I don't expect the manufacturer in Germany to know our local codes and building methods.
Or am I to learn their codes in order to install it the way they would in their country. Makes no sense.

The best way to learn is to have constructive arguments, so if I turn out being wrong I'll have a better understanding than if I were to just say, "well, Jlarson, MD, BBQ, Jwjrw, and McClary said it is so, therefore it must be." Also, keep in mind when something is read on here it can sometimes be taken the wrong way.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it.

So you ran a circuit from a panel on the inside to a hmi that was also inside, standard. Then the hmi had cables coming from it long enough to reach the machine that was outside? I'm sorry I don't do this kind of work. But I was wondering about sending all those different voltages thru the same raceway and what size pipe you would need. It sounded like you already piped it in. Hope it works out for ya.

With projectors why don't you cut an old work box in the tile itself?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

cultch said:


> This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it.
> 
> So you ran a circuit from a panel on the inside to a hmi that was also inside, standard. Then the hmi had cables coming from it long enough to reach the machine that was outside? I'm sorry I don't do this kind of work. But I was wondering about sending all those different voltages thru the same raceway and what size pipe you would need. It sounded like you already piped it in. Hope it works out for ya.
> 
> With projectors why don't you cut an old work box in the tile itself?


More or less. The machine is controlled from a touchpanel inside, which recieves it's power from the machine outside. There are only 5 18awg wires plus the communication cable.

I think it's a good thread also. I'm trying to be open minded, even though it probably looks like I'm being hard headed.

For some reason there something in Jlarson's tone that was bothering me. Do you ever read something here and imagine that person speaking?


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

cultch said:


> With projectors why don't you cut an old work box in the tile itself?


I use t-grid box support, 4 square, and mud ring. I don't think an old work box is a good idea.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

I hear ya. We use a tray and an old work box but if there were no tray ur way for sure.

I'm just a regular mechanic and no matter the tone I learn everyday on here.

What do u expect from a bunch of sparkys HA HA


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## Netree (Sep 3, 2011)

For some reason this thread has "The builder song" by KBW playing in my head.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You voided their listing when you removed their wiring.
> 
> Same as your 50' cord example. Cut the cord off and hardwire it. You just voided the listing


just because someone has a listed piece of equipment, with a cord and plug, does not mean you can take that cord and run it thru a house anywhere you want just because it is UL Listed. You would be forced to legally bring power to that cord.


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