# Running exposed romex in a garage



## Magnettica

Do you see a violation here? 

This garage is average height (8' 6") and is a part of a split-level home so there's no basement or attic in which to run these cables. I split the 2"pvc in half to protect the cables where the emerge from a crawl space, up the wall, before going across the garage door, and finally down into the panel. The inspector said, "no exposed romex in the garage." 

I plan to discuss this with him tomorrow, politely, and ask him which article he might be quoting since he didn't quote one at the rough/ service inspection. 

Opinions? :whistling2:


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## B4T

I'm not seeing what is wrong here either.. :blink:

334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type
NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or
detached garages, and their storage buildings.

(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry
locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3)


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## Magnettica

B4T said:


> I'm not seeing what is wrong here either.. :blink:
> 
> 334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type
> NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
> (1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or
> detached garages, and their storage buildings.
> 
> (A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
> (1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry
> locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3)


And........... this guys breaking my balls because I could not find (2) circuit breakers (for identification) after a service upgrade. I'm furious inside but smiling ear to ear when I speak to this supposed "inspector" tomorrow. :no:


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## SVT CAMR

Maybe the inspector is from Da Chi Town.


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## B4T

Magnettica said:


> And........... this guys breaking my balls because I could not find (2) circuit breakers (for identification) after a service upgrade. I'm furious inside but smiling ear to ear when I speak to this supposed "inspector" tomorrow. :no:


So you are required to find two circuits that control nothing.. :blink::blink:

They could be dead ended somewhere in the attic for all you know..

So disconnect the wire connected to the breaker and label it "not used"..


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## electrictim510

Name them "attic extra circuits" or "plugs" or "lights" :jester:Guy sounds like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with the way it is installed, but it sure looks ugly. :laughing:


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## Magnettica

Oh, and not to forget this one....... "water meter not accessible". 


Not accessible because the guy is remodeling the kitchen and all the extra **** is in the way. I find that amusing because in order to do my job (bonding the meter) I actually moved crap out of the way. This guys not only stupid, but lazy too!


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## Celtic

He may be using 334.15(B) [2008]


> Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary....



In the EI's opinion, a tree pruning tool, ladder, or other such object may do damage to the NM when the tool/object is tossed onto the wires.


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## Magnettica

electrictim510 said:


> Name them "attic extra circuits" or "plugs" or "lights" :jester:Guy sounds like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with the way it is installed, but it sure looks ugly. :laughing:


I hear you, not exactly sexy. 

How would you have installed these circuits?

(3) - 12/3's
(1) - #2 aluminum for GEC to water main.


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> He may be using 334.15(B) [2008]
> 
> 
> 
> In the EI's opinion, a tree pruning tool, ladder, or other such object may do damage to the NM when the tool/object is tossed onto the wires.


Who is to say "where *is* necessary".. that has no clear definition.. :no:


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## Magnettica

Celtic said:


> He may be using 334.15(B) [2008]
> 
> 
> 
> In the EI's opinion, a tree pruning tool, ladder, or other such object may do damage to the NM when the tool/object is tossed onto the wires.


Thats why I installed the PVC almost all the way to ceiling. I suppose the EI is thinking the guy might toss the lawnmower up in the air and in that case he's right.


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## B4T

Magnettica said:


> I hear you, not exactly sexy.
> 
> How would you have installed these circuits?
> 
> (3) - 12/3's
> (1) - #2 aluminum for GEC to water main.


Would the HO pay you to build a box to hide the cables.. probably not.. it is fine..

You see the same thing in a basement and nobody complains.. why is a garage any different.. :blink:


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## Magnettica

here's the rest of the service....


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## Magnettica

B4T said:


> Would the HO pay you to build a box to hide the cables.. probably not.. it is fine..
> 
> You see the same thing in a basement and nobody complains.. why is a garage any different.. :blink:


I'd say A) you can't park a car in a basement, and B) mechanical yard equipment doesn't get stored in a basement either. But the NEC doesn't mention any of that, so...


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## SVT CAMR

Magnettica said:


> How would you have installed these circuits?


Where they come through the wall set box(s) and run EMT pipe(s).


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## Magnettica

SVT CAMR said:


> Where they come through the wall set box(s) and run EMT pipe(s).


Who's paying for that? :no:


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> Who is to say "where *is* necessary".. that has no clear definition.. :no:


You are correct of course....but do you think the EI has a point also?



Magnettica said:


> Thats why I installed the PVC almost all the way to ceiling. I suppose the EI is thinking the guy might toss the lawnmower up in the air and in that case he's right.


Not necessarily a lawnmower...but some other piece of good-knows-what that may damage the NM.


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## Celtic

Magnettica said:


> here's the rest of the service....


Scotchplains/Plainfield?

Looks nice....you spent a fortune on SE straps :thumbup:


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## B4T

I would violate using duct seal instead of 100% silicone rubber caulk.. that stuff is useless for keeping water on the outside of a house.. :whistling2:


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> You are correct of course....but do you think the EI has a point also?


That is a judgment call.. are there tools already piled up against the outside wall already..

Is there a pegboard storage board directly below the ceiling where a tool can come in contact with a cable..

There has to be a legit reason on making a judgment call and it can't be for something in the future.. IMO..


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## user4818

B4T said:


> I would violate using duct seal instead of 100% silicone rubber caulk.. that stuff is useless for keeping water on the outside of a house.. :whistling2:


Hey doofus, did you notice where he put the SEU straps?


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> That is a judgment call.. are there tools already piled up against the outside wall already..
> 
> Is there a pegboard storage board directly below the ceiling where a tool can come in contact with a cable..
> 
> There has to be a legit reason on making a judgment call and it can't be for something in the future.. IMO..


....but do you think the EI has a point also?


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## SVT CAMR

What you did would be equal to if I was to run BX on an exposed wall. Not craftsman like. Hack might be the right word here. legal or not.


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## SVT CAMR

Magnettica said:


> Who's paying for that? :no:


you are now. :001_tongue:

EDIT: Just bustin balls


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> ....but do you think the EI has a point also?


Not the way the code is written.. as I said.. what about exposed wires in a basement.. how is "exposed to physical damage" any different..


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## electrictim510

Magnettica said:


> I hear you, not exactly sexy.
> 
> How would you have installed these circuits?
> 
> (3) - 12/3's
> (1) - #2 aluminum for GEC to water main.


I would probably pipe as much as possible if its downstairs in a 2 story. Thats just me though. Romex works though. Whenever possible I try to fish wires throught the walls even if I have to ask the customer if they dont mind patching. When it comes down to customers nickel and diming though; pvc and surface romex it is! :thumbsup:


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> Hey doofus, did you notice where he put the SEU straps?


Put this on your tool box..


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## user4818

B4T said:


> Put this on your tool box..


That one's old. But anyway, if you're going to criticize me for putting the SEU straps in that spot, at least have the guts to criticize Magnettica.


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> Not the way the code is written.. as I said.. what about exposed wires in a basement.. how is "exposed to physical damage" any different..


Probably because what is tossed down the stairs to the basement amounts to household goods, clothing, etc....not landscaping equipment, ladders, car bumpers, etc.

If that is not a convincing enough case for you to add some protection in a garage - then by all means, protect your exposed NM in the basement too.

:thumbsup:


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> That one's old. But anyway, if you're going to criticize me for putting the SEU straps in that spot, at least have the guts to criticize Magnettica.


Those are not wood shake shingles you moron.. big difference..


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> Probably because what is tossed down the stairs to the basement amounts to household goods, clothing, etc....not landscaping equipment, ladders, car bumpers, etc.
> :thumbsup:


So you are making a judgment call and not enforcing "exposed to physical damage"..


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## user4818

B4T said:


> Those are not wood shake shingles you moron.. big difference..


OK doofus. :laughing:


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> So you are making a judgment call and not enforcing "exposed to physical damage"..


:001_huh:
How am I "not enforcing"?


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## 480sparky

#10 to the intersystem bond? :blink:


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> :001_huh:
> How am I "not enforcing"?


In the basement.. then you would have to violate every unfinished basement in NJ..


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> #10 to the intersystem bond? :blink:


That's what the telco guys run. :blink:


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> That's what the telco guys run. :blink:


The telco guys don't care about the NEC. We do.


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## user4818

B4T said:


> In the basement.. then you would have to violate every unfinished basement in NJ..


I agree with the doofus. Exposed NM cable in a garage is the norm around here and it's not interpreted as subject to damage.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> The telco guys don't care about the NEC. We do.


When I do a service change I slap their ground on the block and be done with it.


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> In the basement.. then you would have to violate every unfinished basement in NJ..


IF I was the EI I would have some power to enforce.....and as stated, it's a judgment call.....for a hard-nosed EC that refuses to be flexible, he would get the treatment.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> When I do a service change I slap their ground on the block and be done with it.


I couldn't care less about what size THEY use for THEIR stuff. But all I see there is a #10, _at best_.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> I couldn't care less about what size THEY use for THEIR stuff.


Neither do I and that's why I don't change it.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Neither do I and that's why I don't change it.



You don't get it. _All that runs to it is a #*10*._


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> You don't get it. _All that runs to it is a #*10*._


And? Am I supposed to do something about that? Because I don't.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> I would violate using duct seal instead of 100% silicone rubber caulk.. that stuff is useless for keeping water on the outside of a house.. :whistling2:


Interesting point, check this out from one duct seal maker.



> Duct Seal Compound
> Seals conduit openings against drafts, dust, moisture and noise.
> • Protects terminal boxes, pot heads and bushings from corrosive elements.
> • Deadens switch gear panel noise.
> • Dough-like compound is easily “thumbed” over holes and gaps.
> • Will not harden or form a skin under normal conditions.
> *• Not for use outdoors.*
> • Specifications:
> - Viscosity: ASTM D-217 300-gram load - 7.0 -11.0; ASTM DS-S2
> 100-gram load - 9.0 -15.0
> - Temperature Range: Adheres at -20 °F (-29 °C). Will not slump after
> 1 hr. at 350 °F (175 °C).
> - Flash Point: Over 550 °F (285 °C).
> - Other Properties: Non-conducting, non-deteriorating, non-toxic,
> non-corrosive, non-staining, non-curable; 99% solid, coil-based.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> And? Am I supposed to do something about that? Because I don't.



OK, what size wire do YOU run to the intersystem bond? 20? 24?


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> OK, what size wire do YOU run to the intersystem bond? 20? 24?


I run whatever size the GEC is for that service. I thought we were talking about the jumpers from the grounding block to each telco's demarc?


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> Interesting point, check this out from one duct seal maker.


I actually agree with the doofus about duct seal. It's useless outside unless it's not exposed to sunlight (behind a meter socket, disco, etc). I always use silicone caulk for wall penetrations.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> ..............I thought we were talking about the jumpers from the grounding block to each telco's demarc?



Maybe you'll see it now.......... that's ALL there is there!


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> Maybe you'll see it now.......... that's ALL there is there!


Are we talking about Ron's picture? I see a green #10 (most likely) and a black #6 or #4 going through the block.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Are we talking about Ron's picture? I see a green #10 (most likely) and a black #6 or #4 going through the block.



I see a #10 green and some RG59.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> I see a #10 green and some RG59.


RG59? :001_huh: That's the GEC running through the block.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> RG59? :001_huh: That's the GEC running through the block.


You guys paint GEC's black? :001_huh:


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> You guys paint GEC's black? :001_huh:


Ever heard of black insulated THHN?


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## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Ever heard of black insulated THHN?


They make that?


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Ever heard of black insulated THHN?



Yeah. But we don't use it for GEC's.


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## electrictim510

480sparky said:


> Yeah. But we don't use it for GEC's.


Why not?


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## 480sparky

electrictim510 said:


> Why not?



It costs money to put that plastic stuff around the copper. Since it's a GROUNDing electrode conductor, we use bare.


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## MDShunk

I see a compliant install in Ron's pic. He went the extra mile and covered it with protection fashioned from a split piece of PVC, so the whole 'protection against physical damage' avenue is covered. Hell, the PoCo guys use more or less the same stuff, called "riser conduit". I'm very curious to know what this inspector comes up with.


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## BBQ

480sparky said:


> Yeah. But we don't use it for GEC's.


But it is not your work in the photo so what you use for GECs is pretty much irrelevant. :whistling2:


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## user4818

BBQ said:


> They make that?


I think they discontinued black THHN. Not enough demand.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> It costs money to put that plastic stuff around the copper. Since it's a GROUNDing electrode conductor, we use bare.


Awesome. When I have a long enough scrap of #6 THHN, I use it for the GEC.


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## electrictim510

480sparky said:


> It costs money to put that plastic stuff around the copper. Since it's a GROUNDing electrode conductor, we use bare.


For mine, since stupid ahj wants #4 regardless of size of service I carry a roll of #4 thhn and use it for 100amp servce conductors and gec. And since its #4 no need for that plastic stuff. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Awesome. When I have a long enough scrap of #6 THHN, I use it for the GEC.



Ah, we just buy it bare. Saves time & money. :laughing:


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## MDShunk

electrictim510 said:


> For mine, since stupid ahj wants #4 regardless of size of service I carry a roll of #4 thhn and use it for 100amp servce conductors and gec. And since its #4 no need for that plastic stuff. :thumbsup:


I tend to run a lot of #4 also, but mostly to the GEC, since it often is exposed to physical damage. #6 won't cut it, in that regard.


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## user4818

480sparky said:


> Ah, we just buy it bare. Saves time & money. :laughing:


You are such a tool.  I don't have to buy scrap wire to use as GEC's.


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## user4818

MDShunk said:


> I tend to run a lot of #4 also, but mostly to the GEC, since it often is exposed to physical damage. #6 won't cut it, in that regard.


The inspectors in my area don't usually red tag #6 exposed.


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## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> You are such a tool.  I don't have to buy scrap wire to use as GEC's.



I use my scrap 6 for hooking up subpanels n such.


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## electrictim510

Peter D said:


> The inspectors in my area don't usually red tag #6 exposed.


"Exposed" is usually opened to interpretation, and pretty loosely in some areas. In some areas in CA you ca run 6 on the wall as long as it is strapped well and is not in high traffic areas or something similar, but others do not want it anywhere but in pipe or in wall.


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## McClary’s Electrical

(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables
shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that
provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a
15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of firerated​assemblies.


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## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> (3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
> construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables
> shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that
> provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a
> 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of firerated​assemblies.


Here are the different construction classifications.. http://www.korel.com/construction-type.asp

TYPE V - Wood-frame construction is the most combustible of the five building types. The interior framing and exterior walls may be wood. A wood-frame building is the only one of the five types of construction that has combustible exterior walls. This is the typical single-family home construction method. These buildings are built with 2x4 or 2x6 studs and load bearing walls, wood floor trusses or wood floor joist and wood roof framing.


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## B4T

334.10 was a recent code change to allow exposed NM as stated.. otherwise we would have the same problem with exposed cables in basements..


. Installation
334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type
NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or
detached garages, and their storage buildings.


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> 334.10 was a recent code change to allow exposed NM as stated.. otherwise we would have the same problem with exposed cables in basements..
> 
> 
> . Installation
> 334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type
> NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
> (1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or
> detached garages, and their storage buildings.


It was never an issue in a basement as that was part of the dwelling unit. The issue was detached garages and sheds on dwelling unit property.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> It was never an issue in a basement as that was part of the dwelling unit. The issue was detached garages and sheds on dwelling unit property.


So a detached garage can have exposed NM using 2011 code but be red tagged if you're still on 2008 code.. :blink:


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> So a detached garage can have exposed NM using 2011 code but be red tagged if you're still on 2008 code.. :blink:


What is in the 2008 NEC that would make it different?:blink:

In this case the inspector is just busting his chops IMO.


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## B4T

HARRY304E said:


> What is in the 2008 NEC that would make it different?:blink:
> 
> In this case the inspector is just busting his chops IMO.


the code change that was added for 2011..


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## McClary’s Electrical

B4T said:


> So a detached garage can have exposed NM using 2011 code but be red tagged if you're still on 2008 code.. :blink:


Yep, you're right.


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## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> #10 to the intersystem bond? :blink:


 (((( X ))))

#6 from the panel ground bus passing through to the ground rod.


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## Magnettica

RG-59 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Big John

I have nothing to contribute other than the inspector who failed that is a dink.

Also:


> Duct Seal Compound
> Seals conduit openings against drafts, dust, moisture and noise.
> • Protects terminal boxes, pot heads and bushings from corrosive elements.
> • Deadens switch gear panel noise.
> • Dough-like compound is easily “thumbed” over holes and gaps.
> • Will not harden or form a skin under normal conditions.
> • Not for use outdoors.
> • Specifications:
> - Viscosity: ASTM D-217 300-gram load - 7.0 -11.0; ASTM DS-S2
> 100-gram load - 9.0 -15.0
> - Temperature Range: Adheres at -20 °F (-29 °C). Will not slump after
> 1 hr. at 350 °F (175 °C).
> - Flash Point: Over 550 °F (285 °C).
> - Other Properties: Non-conducting, non-deteriorating, non-toxic,
> non-corrosive, non-staining, non-curable; 99% solid, coil-based.


 I would love to see someone use duct seal to deaden noise from switchgear; I imagine something like The 3 Stooges, only with more fire.

-John


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> So a detached garage can have exposed NM using 2011 code but be red tagged if you're still on 2008 code.. :blink:





HARRY304E said:


> What is in the 2008 NEC that would make it different?


This is how I understand it, it was not intentional.

A change was made for the 2008 adding the requirement for a 15 minute finish for NM in non-dwelling units. I believe the intent was aimed at commercial spaces ... not detached garages at dwelling units.

However once the change was made and the 2008 was being enforced it became clear that the change also changed things for detached garages, sheds, pool house etc.

So for the 2011 they a made another change to fix the issue.


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## user4818

Magnettica said:


> RG-59 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


That was a classic. :001_huh:


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## 10492

As far as I know, Romex surface mounted in a garage isn't allowed here.

It has to be MC, BX or in a raceway.

I think it's a local thing. If you can touch it standing on the ground, it has to be in a raceway like wiremold.


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## nrp3

I did at least one unfinished detached garage in MC under the 08 because of that rule.


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## B4T

nrp3 said:


> I did at least one unfinished detached garage in MC under the 08 because of that rule.


Some day.. some electrician is going to see that MC and post pics here.. under the quote.. _'WTF was he thinking_".. :laughing::laughing:


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## nrp3

I was asking myself the same question.


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## user4818

I ran romex in garages even when the 2008 didn't allow it. I know, what a rebel. :laughing:


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## Magnettica

Dnkldorf said:


> As far as I know, Romex surface mounted in a garage isn't allowed here.
> 
> It has to be MC, BX or in a raceway.
> 
> I think it's a local thing. If you can touch it standing on the ground, it has to be in a raceway like wiremold.


Then my installation complies with the code unless a pro basketball player lives in this house the cables cannot be reached.


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## HARRY304E

Magnettica said:


> Then my installation complies with the code unless a pro basketball player lives in this house the cables cannot be reached.


Yeah I wonder if he will pay top dollar..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E

Peter D said:


> I ran romex in garages even when the 2008 didn't allow it. I know, what a rebel. :laughing:


Did they have two doors..?:blink:


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## HARRY304E

B4T said:


> Some day.. some electrician is going to see that MC and post pics here.. under the quote.. _'WTF was he thinking_".. :laughing::laughing:


:lol::laughing::laughing:


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