# 3way house to garage



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

putting in a new service to new garage and running underground to the house. ho surprised me a 'wnat a 3way from the house' can you put that in the same pipe as the service? don t recall ever having that situation or seeing it in the book


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Don't recall seeing the same conductors in the pipe or the 3 way in the garage?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

the 3way conductor in the same pipe as the service conductors. the service conductors to the house would be in pvc from the garage. can the 3way wire from garage to house be in the same pipe? i think that clarifies it?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That's not a service, it's a feeder or (depending on the situation) a circuit. Yes, you can run them in the same raceway.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

From what I know...or don't lol, you can. Not sure of a code reference and I don't want to look but Hack says so too!


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

But, is a lighting circuit for the garage allowed to be connected to devices outside the garage?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> But, is a lighting circuit for the garage allowed to be connected to devices outside the garage?


Yes, a 3-way switching system is allowed.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

five.five-six said:


> But, is a lighting circuit for the garage allowed to be connected to devices outside the garage?


But just for a light switch, that seems silly....silly to deny it I mean. Could do a wireless 3way.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

now that hack put it that way, i have seen (and done this) before. just forgot!right, its not a service its a feeder


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Like, duh!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Majewski said:


> Like, duh!


Dude, will you go to the spam thread please.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> putting in a new service to new garage and running underground to the house. ho surprised me a 'wnat a 3way from the house' can you put that in the same pipe as the service? don t recall ever having that situation or seeing it in the book


Are you feeding the garage from the main/house panel?

If so ,and as Hack said, then you can run the switch wires in the same conduit. If however, this is a new metered service, then it is a service and you can't run anything but service wires in the same conduit.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

reread the OP, please. it explains


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Dude, will you go to the spam thread please.


Don't tell me what to do!


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Agree with previous posts. Even so it wouldn't be my first choice. A 2nd pipe
would be my first choice. Wireless (as mentioned by Maj) would be my 
2nd choice - this would mean using the Lutron Casetta/pico. Running another 
3 wires in the panel-to-subpanel conduit would be a very distant 3rd choice. 
Coming in/out of panels with travellers goes against my nature. My nature 
includes de-cluttering panels, not cluttering them. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Agree with previous posts. Even so it wouldn't be my first choice. A 2nd pipe
> would be my first choice. Wireless (as mentioned by Maj) would be my
> 2nd choice - this would mean using the Lutron Casetta/pico. Running another
> 3 wires in the panel-to-subpanel conduit would be a very distant 3rd choice.
> ...


If the clutter of having 3 #14's in an electrical panel is too much for you, you can always box the raceway before the panel.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dont quote me wrong but if my memory serve me right the three way switch loops or circuits it have to be feeded from garage side not the house side so pay attetion with the connection.,

as this underground conduit is treated as feeder then ya you can run them with the feeder conduit but IMO not my best idea I rather run it seperated from that.

Just becarefull some local codes can really fling ya a wild card so be aware of their motion.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Majewski said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > Dude, will you go to the spam thread please.
> ...


If you'd participate in threads rather than posting spammy comments, you wouldnt get hassled. 

I would have no qualms running wires for a 3-way in the same pipe as feeders. It's done all the time.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Just remember to derate. You go from 3 to 6 or 7 current carrying conductors doing that.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Going_Commando said:


> If you'd participate in threads rather than posting spammy comments, you wouldnt get hassled.
> 
> I would have no qualms running wires for a 3-way in the same pipe as feeders. It's done all the time.


I just don't take it too seriously.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

Biscuits said:


> Just remember to derate. You go from 3 to 6 or 7 current carrying conductors doing that.


This is what I was going to contribute. Only I count from 2 to 5 CCC's. Two for the ungrounded feeder, one for a traveler, one for the switch grounded and one for 3-way hot or switch leg. Assuming this isn't a 120/208. 
This is where 310.15 (b)(7) change makes since.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

asked inspector today and says it would fine except that a panel board cant be used as conduit. which in this case it would be. dont remeber the code ref, but i believe he is right. either way, its his jurisdiction.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

papaotis said:


> asked inspector today and says it would fine except that a panel board cant be used as conduit. which in this case it would be. dont remeber the code ref, but i believe he is right. either way, its his jurisdiction.


You can box it before, that should make him happy.

As for whether he is correct, I'd like to see what others have to say.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Arrow3030 said:


> This is what I was going to contribute. Only I count from 2 to 5 CCC's. Two for the ungrounded feeder, one for a traveler, one for the switch grounded and one for 3-way hot or switch leg. Assuming this isn't a 120/208.
> 
> This is where 310.15 (b)(7) change makes since.




The feeder would be 3, the two ungrounded and the grounded. Then you add the 2 travelers, the common, and potentially the switching circuit neutral. That's how I envision it in my head at least


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> asked inspector today and says it would fine except that a panel board cant be used as conduit. which in this case it would be. dont remeber the code ref, but i believe he is right. either way, its his jurisdiction.





HackWork said:


> You can box it before, that should make him happy.
> 
> As for whether he is correct, I'd like to see what others have to say.



Inspector is correct:



> 312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
> Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be
> used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or *raceways* for conductors
> feeding through or tapping off to other switches or
> overcurrent devices


That's if he stopped reading where the quote ends. But if reads the "rest of the story" he is incorrect. Here is the rest of the code article....



> , *unless *adequate space for this purpose is
> provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any
> cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional
> area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall
> ...


Now if you go over the allowed space it would be against code. But it would be hard to go over the allowed area unless you had a whole lot of extra conductors passing through.
Certainly 3 or 4 wires/conductors for a 3-way switch wouldn't impact the allowed space at all.

Conclusion: Inspector is wrong!!!


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

thanks much, short one . i have to duke it out with this guy tomorrow!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> thanks much, short one . i have to duke it out with this guy tomorrow!


Keep us updated!


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Would you also have wire nuts in the panel or would the wires be going
conduit to conduit? 
P&L


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Would you also have wire nuts in the panel or would the wires be going
> conduit to conduit?
> P&L




I've done it both ways. I like when it can go unspliced but sometimes it's completely unreasonable. Nothing wrong with wirenuts in a panel here


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

For other Canadians following this thread, see 12-3032 for our rules 
on this. Wording is difficult to parse, as usual. 
P&L


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

well we studied the book together for half an hour and everything laed us back to 312.8! he tells me hes going look further into it and get back to me before noon IF he finds something. 3;30 rols around and here comes the call. eh says 230.7 is my downfall. i argue that this is not the service, its a feeder as the service is to the garage. after several twists and turns in our terminology we agreed to disagree. he wins. THEY consider the feeder to the house a service which negates what i want to do. this didnt go well at all with all the bad turns ive had this week!


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

How can debating the difference between a service and a feeder be a complicated discussion between professionals in the field!? You got whacked. Tell the inspector he can turn the estimate in to your client and explain the cost.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Do you normally butt heads with this guy?


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## Tom the lecrician (Sep 23, 2016)

Why not just run anot her pipe underground? Are you running new gor the service?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> well we studied the book together for half an hour and everything laed us back to 312.8! he tells me hes going look further into it and get back to me before noon IF he finds something. 3;30 rols around and here comes the call. eh says 230.7 is my downfall. i argue that this is not the service, its a feeder as the service is to the garage. after several twists and turns in our terminology we agreed to disagree. he wins. THEY consider the feeder to the house a service which negates what i want to do. this didnt go well at all with all the bad turns ive had this week!



Go above his head!..................With this!!!!

Straight from the NEC definitions!



> *Service*. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric
> energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
> the premises served.





> *Feeder.* All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
> the source of a separately derived system, or other
> power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent
> device.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

A Little Short said:


> Go above his head!..................With this!!!!
> 
> Straight from the NEC definitions!


Exactly the next thing I was going to say. Unless you tried and failed....then plan B......bake a cake with Exlax.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Tom the lecrician said:


> Why not just run anot her pipe underground? Are you running new gor the service?


1"pvc is so cheap it isn't worth the argument time.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Do you normally butt heads with this guy?


no , we get along very well. like to keep it that way!


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

thanks again short one! i think thats a fair fight. but think im going to do it his wayu to make sure i pass and then hit him with the 'what about this?' might be fun! costly, but fun.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Smart papa.... Sometimes we gotta eat some crow to maintain a working relationship.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

finally got that inspection today.without a word said by me, he turned around with his back to me and said 'i hope you dont have a knife of or a club" he was very ebarrassed at the situation that i COULD have done my way. even though it cost me more time, i believe i will have more respect from him now!:thumbsup:


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