# need help and opinion



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

This motor can use up to a 600 amp fuse or breaker max. What size fuses/breaker do you have?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

it was fix with 400amp breaker..and overload are set at 335


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Read your NEC then get back to us. I'd dig through 430. See if everything is sized properly. Take amp readings. Check motor make up. Who specced the motor size?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

hai nitro...

all wiring was done by myself...as for motor spec..it was given by supplier or the machine...i wanted too proof tot hem that thier motor are underspec but i cant figure how..


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

All I can think of is take a amp reading under full load. If the motor is pulling more than the FLA you have a problem.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

yes that what happening...the motor rated 273amp..on name plate..and when they start 
it goes up too 500 and trip the starter breaker..i ask them they say thier p/mill demand are 160kw..and i ask why the motor not 180kw or higher since it direct coupling..
they simply pull back and say it my power wrong..
is there any calculator to do it..


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You're talking about start up now. Not running FLA. Startup is gonna pull a lot.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Is this thing on a soft start?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

sorry nitro...i think i had miss that part...the motor trip during start up..
no it not soft stater ..it was connected too auto transformer with 60% tapping


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

This is way outa my realm but our power company probably wouldn't let us start that motor without a soft start. What's your service voltage and capacity? I would expect that motor to trip a 400 amp breaker that is line connected.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

line voltage are 440vac 50hz....the 400amp breaker are connected as incomer breaker to the motor (MCC panel) which connect the 160kw motor..and line breaker are 800amp which connected to some several 
small motor 3pahse as well


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I guess I'm curious why this motor has a transformer? When your line voltage appears to be correct for the motor?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

no no...i m using auto transformer stater ..instead of VD which not suit for this pelletmill
and soft stater well my management not willing to have big budget..
i had several motor connected with auto transformer and work fine but on this make me burst..
auto transformer are silimiar with wyse delta stater but it dont have wyse contactor 
insted wyse are done on transformer.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

You're above my head on this one.. So the auto transformer is part of the starter for this motor. I'm sure someone else will have some info on this.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

http://www.powertransformer.us/motorstartingautotransformers.htm


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

yes u rite...well i just craking my heas ..and almost going nuts here..
nitro..is there anyway we could calculate..what the motor size would be if the demand for running machine are 160kw


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

What does the starter manufacture have to say? I'd give them a call. See if they have a spec for the breaker feeding this. Really you should dig into 430 in the NEC. See if it has anything about short circuit protection for auto transformer started motors.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/97027-AutoTransformer-Motor-Starting/page2


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

well...the stater board are made by myself...with control and power as well.
and i had few stater which working fine..i been triple check non was wrong at stater and even check the megger the motor and cable all seem okay..


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

What happens if you raise your 65% taps? This whole thing sounds mildly hazardous. I'm kinda envious you get to design your own starters. In the US I'd end up calling the starter company and speccing the motor size. They would send me an appropriate starter based on the specs you supply. Probably the whole thing would have an engineer stamp for that large of a motor.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

i m qualify to design stater panel.downhere most starter panel are design by 
owner or some panel company ..only thing we can design are power panel..
well i was thinking too tap it at 85% .and doing some calculation ..


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I would try posting over on Mike Holt also. More engineer types over there. There are some guys on this site though that should have more insite to this.


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## Paulusgnome (Mar 28, 2009)

From reading the OP's posts, I get the feeling that the problem is not one of having an incorrect breaker rating, but rather it is a problem of not having the breaker trip unit set correctly.

Normally for this size of motor, I would recommend using an MCCB with independently-adjustable magnetic, short-time thermal and long-time thermal trip points. The long time trip should be set to a bit above the FLA of the motor, say 350A here. The short-time and magnetic points are adjusted to suit the application, perhaps ST should be set to 3-4 x LT and magnetic to 8 x LT, whatever it takes to avoid the nuisance tripping.

The object here is to have the breaker providing the second-tier protection with the thermal overload relay providing the close motor protection. 

If, with a correctly set-up MCCB and TOR, you get tripping of the *TOR*, then you can start questioning the adequacy of the motor, but this tripping breaker isn't telling you that at all, not yet.

Good luck with your investigations.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> *need help and opinion*
> hello all....
> 
> i have a problem with electrical motor .
> ...


 
how far away is the motor from its "breaker"?
what is the ambient temp in the plant(not right now just an avg.)?

do you have pics?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

hai paul...as u you see my attachment are the breaker and overload setting ..


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> how far away is the motor from its "breaker"?
> what is the ambient temp in the plant(not right now just an avg.)?
> 
> do you have pics?


 
avarage of ambient temp are about 38C~40C..well i know it hot 
and it about 62FT from mcc ..


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

its set at 375 not 335 and how far s the equip. from the grid source?


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

have you fault checked the breaker? what was being used before ?

are you on a 50 htz cycle?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

sorry my mistake...it about 62ft from MCC ..motor starter board are locate in same room with main power grid ..


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> have you fault checked the breaker? what was being used before ?
> 
> are you on a 50 htz cycle?


 
yes it had been tested and certificate by qualify tester ..
this was new installtation (stater board) yes it is 440 50hz


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> yes it had been tested and certificate by qualify tester ..
> this was new installtation (stater board) yes it is 440 50hz


 
what size and type of wire........ its 60feet right? just asking.

38-40*c / 99-105* f


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> This motor can use up to a 600 amp fuse or breaker max.


Exactly. 

Assuming the motor and starter are ok, this is the solution. You have an OL in there the breaker is only for short circuit and ground faults, size it to small and it can trip on start up.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> what size and type of wire........ its 60feet right? just asking.
> 
> 38-40*c / 99-105* f


yes it about 62ft from MCC panel and it single insulated PVC cable if i not mistake it 98mm or 120mm..this need to check with my wireman


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Assuming the motor and starter are ok, this is the solution. You have an OL in there the breaker is only for short circuit and ground faults, size it to small and it can trip on start up.


wont it be too big if i change it from 400amp to 600amp breaker ..
i could change it but there will be side effect is it ..esp when the are short and ground fault..i mean delay on triping ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ajay34 said:


> wont it be too big if i change it from 400amp to 600amp breaker ..
> i could change it but there will be side effect is it ..esp when the are short and ground fault..i mean delay on triping ?


Actually hang on, one question, was reduced voltage starting specified or was that your own decision?


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

can you draw a diagram of how you wired the starter board and give me specs. on why you are bumping the xfmr tap to 85% from 60% you are limited in the power by having a 400 amp breaker.

what are the motor winding readings? 

on the direct coupling whats the load? have you free run the motor off load?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Actually hang on, one question, was reduced voltage starting specified or was that your own decision?


sorry for asking again ..does you mean it my choice using auto transformer 
stater ..if that you mean yes it is ..coz i can use VFD for this p/mill and 
using osft starter management say it big budget for them ..

and i had other plant and motor which using same starter no problem i found .


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I was just wondering if the mill equipment supplier said reduced voltage was ok.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> can you draw a diagram of how you wired the starter board and give me specs. on why you are bumping the xfmr tap to 85% from 60% you are limited in the power by having a 400 amp breaker.
> 
> what are the motor winding readings?
> 
> on the direct coupling whats the load? have you free run the motor off load?


my guys just inform me that they had change the tapping from 60% to 85%..and something new came up ..the motor can change to delta but it smoke up auto transformer..and i had ask them to increse the run up time.

yes had test free run the motor without connected to any..it can run as normal and change to delta ..i would say it just free load when connected to the p/mill..just start and about 3 to 5 sec it trip the 400amp breaker


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34;511899[COLOR=red said:


> ]my guys just inform me that they had change the tapping from 60% to 85%[/COLOR]..and something new came up ..the motor can change to delta but it smoke up auto transformer..and i had ask them to increse the run up time.
> 
> yes had test free run the motor without connected to any..it can run as normal and change to delta ..i would say it just free load when connected to the p/mill..just start and about 3 to 5 sec it trip the 400amp breaker


what were the amp readings AFTER the tap change and whats the autofmr set to now?


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

a 500 amp breaker is going to run out fine , but you are sure the autofmr isnt defunct?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I was just wondering if the mill equipment supplier said reduced voltage was ok.


i been telling the supplier that this motor 160kw are undersize for direct coupling too the mill..coz on my other branch plant we ..had same mill but it was motored with 300hp..only this time the supplier are from china not USA which formly bought during start up and it still running without problem .


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## Paulusgnome (Mar 28, 2009)

ajay34 said:


> my guys just inform me that they had change the tapping from 60% to 85%..and something new came up ..the motor can change to delta but it smoke up auto transformer..and i had ask them to increse the run up time.
> 
> yes had test free run the motor without connected to any..it can run as normal and change to delta ..i would say it just free load when connected to the p/mill..just start and about 3 to 5 sec it trip the 400amp breaker


"...change to delta...." ?????

WTF, is this an autotransformer starter, or is it a star-delta starter?:001_huh:


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

Paulusgnome said:


> "...change to delta...." ?????
> 
> WTF, is this an autotransformer starter, or is it a star-delta starter?:001_huh:


im asking for the drawings..............


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

jhall.sparky said:


> what were the amp readings AFTER the tap change and whats the autofmr set to now?


starting amp reading are 280~320 and start up time are 10sec..
auto transformer are tapped at 80%..

curious now my the auto transformer are heat up ? is it coz the load are too big and transformer size are 160kw Zener brand


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ajay34 said:


> i been telling the supplier that this motor 160kw are undersize for direct coupling too the mill..coz on my other branch plant we ..had same mill but it was motored with 300hp..only this time the supplier are from china not USA which formly bought during start up and it still running without problem .


I went and read the whole thread, yeah I'm starting to think a 160 is cutting it close. 

Since you designed the starter, what about putting a 600amp breaker in and making sure that the motor is getting to about 85% of full RPM before you go to full voltage.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

Paulusgnome said:


> "...change to delta...." ?????
> 
> WTF, is this an autotransformer starter, or is it a star-delta starter?:001_huh:


it auto trasnformer stater ? not star delta starter ..

i m trying to scan the drawing to attach here


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> starting amp reading are 280~320 and start up time are 10sec..
> auto transformer are tapped at 80%..
> 
> curious now my the auto transformer are heat up ? is it coz the load are too big and transformer size are 160kw Zener brand


most likely man its hard to wrap my head around why you would quarter load that motor like you have ........... maybe im misunderstanding you though.......


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

errr..sorry for asking stupid question...how do i zip the file here...the drawing are seem big to send ..

again..wont it be too big for the stater if i change tis too 600amp ?
just curios that all..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ajay34 said:


> again..wont it be too big for the stater if i change tis too 600amp ?
> just curios that all..


As long as you have an overload on there you are fine going to a 600 amp inverse time breaker.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> errr..sorry for asking stupid question...how do i zip the file here...the drawing are seem big to send ..
> 
> again..wont it be too big for the stater if i change tis too 600amp ?
> just curios that all..


not likely


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

we had overcome the problme ..after changing the tapping too 80% and chnage the breaker too 600amp..it running back normal ..

would like to extend my thank full to all who had hint me and guide me ..
thank you so much ...


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Nice going guys:thumbsup:. Made my day to see how you all helped out.:thumbup:


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> we had overcome the problme ..after changing the tapping too 80% and chnage the breaker too 600amp..it running back normal ..
> 
> would like to extend my thank full to all who had hint me and guide me ..
> thank you so much ...


 
although I feel like you made the right decisions and got back on track ,

the offer stands any time you need the help just write. 

now we all expect that youll visit again perhaps with a video of this beast in action!


J.HALL:thumbup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> This is way outa my realm but our power company probably wouldn't let us start that motor without a soft start. What's your service voltage and capacity? I would expect that motor to trip a 400 amp breaker that is line connected.


He is using an auto transformer start. Its probably a combination of auto xfmr and wye/delta starting. Very common overseas.



nitro71 said:


> I guess I'm curious why this motor has a transformer? When your line voltage appears to be correct for the motor?


Auto Transformer Start. Or reduced voltage starting as some call it.



Jlarson said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Assuming the motor and starter are ok, this is the solution. You have an OL in there the breaker is only for short circuit and ground faults, size it to small and it can trip on start up.


I had hoped he would have read my post, but it looks like he wants to do this the hard way. NEC Table 430.152 allows a 600 amp breaker maximum on this motor. He could listen and bump up his breaker until he finds the right one. Or he could just install a 600 amp breaker and be done with it.



ajay34 said:


> my guys just inform me that they had change the tapping from 60% to 85%..and something new came up ..the motor can change to delta but it smoke up auto transformer..and i had ask them to increse the run up time.
> 
> yes had test free run the motor without connected to any..it can run as normal and change to delta ..i would say it just free load when connected to the p/mill..just start and about 3 to 5 sec it trip the 400amp breaker


Your breaker is to *SMALL*. Get a 600 amp breaker and be done with it. And *set the overloads to the nameplate current.* Put your auto transformer taps back like they were.
Remember. Start current can exceed 6-8 times FLA. You must give this motor time to get up to full speed and running current. You cannot do this with a 400 amp breaker.
I know you are thinking what is my auto transformer for then? I am not taking your homemade starter into account. I am using article 430. Single motor.


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

Lock rotor amps is around 1500 for this motor.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm still thinking he could be cutting it close with a 160kw but if he puts the proper breaker in and leaves the starter tapped at 65% and gives it enough time I think he can get it going.


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

hai guys ...thnaks for all your reply and hint as well...
well i know i been pain in ass much..this what i done ..breaker are change too 600amp and tapping are back too 60%...i increase the tapping just too proof to the machine supplier that it not electrical problem ..the main course for this p/mill are most the mill are connect with pulley belt system with just 160kw..but the diffrent on this p/mill id direct coupling and they say their starting load are just so less..

that what been bugging me ..and feel that i had make mistkae on 1st place..anyway 
really gald to extend my thanks too you all..

can i know where i could download nema articale for motor FLA..so it woulbe easy for me next time


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> hai guys ...thnaks for all your reply and hint as well...
> well i know i been pain in ass much..this what i done ..breaker are change too 600amp and tapping are back too 60%...i increase the tapping just too proof to the machine supplier that it not electrical problem ..the main course for this p/mill are most the mill are connect with pulley belt system with just 160kw..but the diffrent on this p/mill id direct coupling and they say their starting load are just so less..
> 
> that what been bugging me ..and feel that i had make mistkae on 1st place..anyway
> ...


mfg. specific..............


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

is there any guide on it like booklet spark ...i had lost my hand kid book ..which general have data of motor ,cable size what type of started kneed and FLA ..based on motor nameplate


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> is there any guide on it like booklet spark ...i had lost my hand kid book ..which general have data of motor ,cable size what type of started kneed and FLA ..based on motor nameplate


 
im looking for some info please be patient.

in the mean time tell me what this mill does is it rubber processing?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

thnaks spark...

it animal feed mill...have p/mill, extruder and shrimp feed p/mill as well ..
just recently extend 1 more line for other branch as well by adding 1 more p/mill
only this time it from local not from US they bought this machine


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

motor calculator.......... click the .xis link........http://www.schneider-electric.us/si...-online-tools/nema-motor-data-calculator.page

wire sizing charts............. http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm 

let me know what you dont have or if you need more info,

J.HALL


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> thnaks spark...
> 
> it animal feed mill...have p/mill, extruder and shrimp feed p/mill as well ..
> just recently extend 1 more line for other branch as well by adding 1 more p/mill
> only this time it from local not from US they bought this machine


cool i'd like to see this beast in action...........:whistling2::thumbup:...........

please, please............?


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

yeah i already ask my guys too take a pic of it...i just back to home ..from my other plant ..as soon i get the VIDEO or PIC i would post it ..
you and other been so great help full...

normally i bang my head on wall before i came to this forum


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> yeah i already ask my guys too take a pic of it...i just back to home ..from my other plant ..as soon i get the VIDEO or PIC i would post it ..
> you and other been so great help full...
> 
> normally i bang my head on wall before i came to this forum


 
hey just glad to help..............:thumbup::thumbup:.


maybe this will get you to your starter research.............http://www.oddparts.com/acsi/defines/start.htm


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## ajay34 (Jul 25, 2011)

sometime it really need much head to work out...does ur PVT email works...i get bounce back too my hotmail as undelivered mail?


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

ajay34 said:


> sometime it really need much head to work out...does ur PVT email works...i get bounce back too my hotmail as undelivered mail?


 
off subject here but look at my latest view...........http://www.electriciantalk.com/f17/red-moon-tonight-27483/


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