# M12 band saw



## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

I know there are some other threads on here about this, but wanted to start fresh. I'm just about convinced I'm buying a m12 band saw. Never used a bandsaw to be honest, but I get the drift. What I was wondering is if anyone has ever used one for cutting wire? We deal with a lot of 4/0 to 250. I used to have a ratcheting cutter but it got swiped. A new one is almost 200, which is the cost of the saw. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's a great tool, I love it. It cuts wire just fine.


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## cad99 (Feb 19, 2012)

Hands down better and longer life then ratcheting cutter. I can only get about a year of life out of them. Cuts emt like butter all thread perfect every time. Uni strut square and 350's faster then a pie knife. Once you get one you will wonder how you have ever lived without one the sawzall has not seen much action for a little over a year now. 


Living the dream one nightmare at a time.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks, I like my m18 hackzall but it's just a little sloppy.


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## Error (Feb 12, 2014)

The m12 bandsaws sick. Replaced the sawzall forsure. And that thing called a hacksaw


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## Canadian sparky (Sep 19, 2011)

Spend the extra and get an m18.. Well worth it. 
Cuts anything and everything like nothing else..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Buy it. Buy it. Buy it. That little bandsaw has made me happier than any tool has a right to. Running pipe all day. Demo. Strut, threaded rod. Cutting down bolts. Big gauge wire. Anything.

Buy it. Buy it. Buy it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Canadian sparky said:


> Spend the extra and get an m18.. Well worth it.
> Cuts anything and everything like nothing else..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bologna. The M12 is awesome because it's a small one-handed tool. The M18 is unnecessary for most things.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Bologna. The M12 is awesome because it's a small one-handed tool. The M18 is unnecessary for most things.


You're wrong again but that is not unusual :laughing:


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

I was looking at the m18, but for what I do I think the m12 is a better deal for me. My average day is 1/2, 3/4, and some strut. I'm sure I'll have that moment where I kick myself for not having the bigger one, but I have managed to live without it this long. Wonder if they will come out with a m18 fuel model that's not so massive...


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Oh I said I've never used one before. Could you cut a piece of say 2"rigid by rotation the pipe as you cut? Easier said than done?


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Not sure never tried. 
The opening in it is a bit bigger than strut. So I don't think there would be enough arc on top of the pipe to get into the saw to do that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> You're wrong again but that is not unusual :laughing:


Ok, I am wrong.

So tell us why someone would want to use the big and heavy M18 model when the lightweight and one-handed M12 is more than they need?


As for the question about it cutting 2" pipe, I don't think you would be able to get it into the guard. I cut 1 1/4" rigid often (cutting the riser off the side of a house) but that is as big as it will go.


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## madbubba (Sep 1, 2013)

M18 or nothing. M18 will cut all the way through a bundle of conduit. M12 can cut 2 at a time lol.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

madbubba said:


> M18 or nothing. M18 will cut all the way through a bundle of conduit. M12 can cut 2 at a time lol.


It sounds like you're looking to cut through bundles of conduit. If you're doing that often, then the M18 Model might be optimal for you. Altho, I always used a chopsaw when I needed to cut large quantities of pipe.

For the most part, the rest of us only cut through one piece of conduit at a time, and find the M12 model to be excellent.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Ok, I am wrong.
> 
> So tell us why someone would want to use the big and heavy M18 model when the lightweight and one-handed M12 is more than they need?
> 
> ...


I'm just funning you man Chill out.:laughing:

I love all the M-12 stuff:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> I'm just funning you man Chill out.:laughing:
> 
> I love all the M-12 stuff:thumbsup:


Please refer to my PM.


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## yamatitan (Sep 4, 2010)

I have both and I grab the m12 90 percent of the time. Unless im doing a lot of big bundles or pipe bigger than 1.5" I grab the m18. I used the m12 the other day to cut some 500mcm cut way easier than ratchet cutters.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I could see it being a good saw for the van but if you're planted on a job nothing beats a tri vise and a big ass electric Milwaukee bandsaw


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## Stryder89 (Dec 9, 2010)

*I have the M18*



WIsparky71 said:


> Oh I said I've never used one before. Could you cut a piece of say 2"rigid by rotation the pipe as you cut? Easier said than done?


 I have the M18 band-saw and I love it. I do not find it too cumbersome at all. I use it one handed all the time. I love the way it cuts through most anything smooth and very fast. Makes conduit work a breeze. Literally no vibration. Remember how the sawzall reacted if it got pinched? Never happens with the band-saw.
I even use it to notch T-bar. It makes clean cuts that don't show.
It cuts 2" conduit great. I use my Sawzalls much less now. In fact I bought the small M18 hacksall on sale, because I do not use the full size for much anymore.
If you already have the M12 system then go for that size. I have not tried the M12 on 2" conduit. I don't have any M12 stuff.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys. I think it's going to be the m12 for me, just a better value for what i do. I also have m18 stuff so I could always add that if I really think I need it. I do have a bit of a tool buying problem lol. Just bought the new fuel hole hawg a few weeks ago....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

IMO, the M12 bandsaw was a game-changer. There was nothing else like it, the closest thing was the Stout bandsaw but the M12 is smaller, lighter, uses a better battery system, and is just a better tool IMO.

Also, I think the M12 hammer drill is a game-changer too. Never did I imagine a small 12V tool could work so well.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

HackWork said:


> IMO, the M12 bandsaw was a game-changer. There was nothing else like it, the closest thing was the Stout bandsaw but the M12 is smaller, lighter, uses a better battery system, and is just a better tool IMO.
> 
> Also, I think the M12 hammer drill is a game-changer too. Never did I imagine a small 12V tool could work so well.
> 
> View attachment 50665


Huh. I've been wondering about those. My m18 fuel hammer drill driver works ok for what I do, and my boss provides a bosch sds so that's nice. . But cords...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a Hilti TE-7c which is a great SDS-Plus rotary hammer. But I haven't used it even once since I got the M12 Fuel rotary hammer last year.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> You're wrong again but that is not unusual :laughing:


No, I completely agree with him.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

If you're runnjng pipe all day, m12. If you need to be cutting bundles of conduit or doing a big pipe run, set up your tri stand and get the company's corded. 

Also, it will cut 2" if you rotate the pipe. Did it a few times. Not ideal but works just fine. Make a nice straight cut too.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks everyone, got the m12 Friday. I played around with it for a while and it seems pretty sweet. Did a quick test with 7/8 strut. My companies dewalt 18v sawzall with brand new blade and fresh battery beat it by a second or 2. But it was louder, less safe, and over the course of a day the bandsaw would pass it up no prob. Not to mention I had already been making cuts with the bandsaw before my "test". 

I'm new to the site and really appreciate all the fast, honest input. Thanks!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That seems very odd to me. I've always found a sawzall (even a 120V Super Sawzall) to be a crappy tool to cut strut with. The M12 Bandsaw always goes thru like butter.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Little off the subject but why would you cut a whole bundle of conduit at once. Stub ups?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Little off the subject but why would you cut a whole bundle of conduit at once. Stub ups?


The only time I did it was when I was mason chasing. When I had receptacles and switch boxes in block walls I would cut stubs of a certain length and keep adding them as the masons built the wall so that the masons could drop the blocks down over the pipe.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Speedy Petey said:


> I truly like to shop local as much as possible. I just can't find the cheap ones around here.
> 
> I have found the cheap blue ones as low as $4.25/100 .
> http://www.gss-store.com/product/BSC3501B-100
> ...


I wouldn't say it cut better, just a bit faster. Defiantly harder to cut with the sawzall.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Huh was not trying to reply to that post, was replying to hack work...


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

That's not even from this thread


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

WIsparky71 said:


> That's not even from this thread










WIsparky71 said:


> Huh was not trying to reply to that post, was replying to hack work...


 It s happened to me several times. It's always a post I have never seen before, so it's not like I accidentally quoted the wrong one. It's always from a different thread that I've never seen.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm waiting for them to make a fuel version of the m12 bandsaw. Until then I'm sticking with my dewalt 18v.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

freeagnt54 said:


> I'm waiting for them to make a fuel version of the m12 bandsaw. Until then I'm sticking with my dewalt 18v.


I don't know if they will. They've had plenty of time. Maybe they think the bandsaw isn't something that needs it?


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

No reason for one. Plenty of power for what fits in it. 12v batteries charge in minutes, so no runtime issues.


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## ramon (Oct 21, 2012)

just buy them both also get the m18 holehawg


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

ramon said:


> just buy them both also get the m18 holehawg


I have the hole hawg also, I think it's pretty sweet.


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## ecelectric (Mar 27, 2009)

I have the holehawg and love it , anyone have the M12 PVC cutter ??


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Don't have the PVC cutter but the company has a few of the cable cutters. They are okay. I don't like how thick the blades are, and the way the case feels like it is going to open up in your hand when it Boggs down. 

I like the Gator cutter and crimp tool better. 

The company bought four of the Milwaukee batery KO punch sets. Those things are sweet!!! Even better than the Maxis punch sets they have.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't really see the point of a powered PVC cutter. 

I use a handheld ratcheting PVC cutter for up to 1 1/4" because it's small and handy. But if I was going to get a powered tool I would just use the hack-zall, it will cut PVC just fine as well as many other things.


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## RMRiggs (Feb 16, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I don't really see the point of a powered PVC cutter.
> 
> I use a handheld ratcheting PVC cutter for up to 1 1/4" because it's small and handy. But if I was going to get a powered tool I would just use the hack-zall, it will cut PVC just fine as well as many other things.


The PVC cutter is nice when you are in a situation where you have to worry about PVC shavings and are cutting a lot of PVC...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RMRiggs said:


> The PVC cutter is nice when you are in a situation where you have to worry about PVC shavings and are cutting a lot of PVC...


In all my years I've never had to worry about PVC shavings :laughing:


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## ramon (Oct 21, 2012)

i have the m12 cable cutters they sit in the case, i still use the band saw mostly just because its close by, unless i cut 3/0 or any mcm


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

tjb said:


> No reason for one. Plenty of power for what fits in it. 12v batteries charge in minutes, so no runtime issues.


In my opinion it feels a little slow cutting emt and strut, or at least the one that I tried did.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

freeagnt54 said:


> In my opinion it feels a little slow cutting emt and strut, or at least the one that I tried did.



It isn't slow at all. Much faster and cleaner than a recip saw. If you push too hard or too little while cutting, you may find that it takes longer. Once you get the feel of it, it's hard to use anything else. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wpgshocker said:


> It isn't slow at all. Much faster and cleaner than a recip saw. If you push too hard or too little while cutting, you may find that it takes longer. Once you get the feel of it, it's hard to use anything else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agreed. I often use it to cut up old 1 1/4" rigid service riser pipe that I take off of houses during a service change. I cut it with the conductors in it and it zips right thru. Strut or EMT are like cutting paper.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I had a job to do where I needed a small, light cordless tool to cut strut. I'd be hoofing it all over a large outdoor site and I wouldn't have power most of the time. This isn't something I need that often, usually I can set up a station to cut with a corded tool. 

I tried the Hackzall first, figuring I'd get more use out of it with other tasks. It cut pipe OK but sucked rocks for cutting strut. Even after fooling with it, just not good or fast on strut. 

So I figured what the heck I bought the M12 bandsaw and wow what a difference. You pull the trigger and you're skeptical it has the juice, it doesn't rotate super fast or anything. But the bandsaw is so much more efficient than a reciprocating blade. It goes through pipe like butter. With strut it helps to try to keep the kerf open so it doesn't bind. Spraying a little lube on might help with binding too, I haven't tried it yet though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I remember being stuck on a few jobs without a bandsaw, only a sawzall. And these were good Milwaukee Super Sawzalls. But they still stucked for cutting strut. So there is no way in hell that a little cordless Hackzall will cut strut well.

The M12 Bandsaw is an awesome tool.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Reading these last posts reminded me that it was this thread that inspired me to buy mine, I absolutely love it, mostly emt and strut but other odd uses ocassionaly


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> Reading these last posts reminded me that it was this thread that inspired me to buy mine, I absolutely love it, mostly emt and strut but other odd uses ocassionaly


It goes up to 1 1/4" rigid pipe too. This is often used on really old 100A electrical services on old houses.

The nice thing about the M12 bandsaw is that it is so small and easy to use that I can cut the pipe right off of the house in smaller pieces. I can use it 1-handed right from the ladder.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It goes up to 1 1/4" rigid pipe too. This is often used on really old 100A electrical services on old houses.
> 
> The nice thing about the M12 bandsaw is that it is so small and easy to use that I can cut the pipe right off of the house in smaller pieces. I can use it 1-handed right from the ladder.


I honestly thought "Oh, look how cute" when I was buying mine. Didn't think I'd use it much, but it was on sale so.....

Well, like everyone else, it sees almost as much use as impact drivers. Strut, Wiremold, track lighting, even fixture nipples. ALL clean and easy, WAY cleaner and easier than a hacksaw.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> I honestly thought "Oh, look how cute" when I was buying mine. Didn't think I'd use it much, but it was on sale so.....
> 
> Well, like everyone else, it sees almost as much use as impact drivers. Strut, Wiremold, track lighting, even fixture nipples. ALL clean and easy, WAY cleaner and easier than a hacksaw.




I bashed the m12 stuff on here for years. Until I started buying it. Now it's like a disease


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I wish I could justify spending the money on an M12 bandsaw but I just don't need it. I have several bandsaws, but it sure looks like a powerhouse for it's size and weight.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Truth be told, I barely use the thing compared to other tools, since I do residential work.

But the 4-5 cuts I make every service upgrade and the ease of cutting when I need to run a little pipe or cut a couple pieces of strut here and there make it worth it for me.

My point is even tho I love the thing, if I was still doing commercial work and running pipe all day, I would love it 50 times more than I do. The same with the little SDS Rotary hammer.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Truth be told, I barely use the thing compared to other tools, since I do residential work.
> 
> But the 4-5 cuts I make every service upgrade and the ease of cutting when I need to run a little pipe or cut a couple pieces of strut here and there make it worth it for me.
> 
> My point is even tho I love the thing, if I was still doing commercial work and running pipe all day, I would love it 50 times more than I do. The same with the little SDS Rotary hammer.


I have an 18v bandsaw, I forget the brand it's Green and was a big thing when they first came out, most of the SHs had them on the counter. It's quick but it's a two handed tool. The M12 just seems so well designed.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Stout. It cut up to 2". Used Makita batteries.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Stout. It cut up to 2". Used Makita batteries.


YUP, that's the one.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

I bought the first one, and everybody else kind of thought "how cute!" Then they all wanted to try it out. Now there's at least seven guys with them. 

The proper name for the m12 subcompact bandsaw is Baby Bandie. FYI.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

tjb said:


> I bought the first one, and everybody else kind of thought "how cute!" Then they all wanted to try it out. Now there's at least seven guys with them.
> 
> The proper name for the m12 subcompact bandsaw is Baby Bandie. FYI.


I feel behind the times.........genuinely left out.....


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

I've had the m12 sub compact band saw for 2 years and I wouldn't be without it again. It was worth every penny. I'm looking at the dewalt deep cut 20v band saw next. Going with dewalt because I already own a bunch of 20v tools and batteries


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you haven't got one of these M12 bandsaws, or you need another, this is a great deal: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-203349800-_-203481118-_-N

It's $139 for the bare tool, this deal for $200 you get a charger and two of the big batteries.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> If you haven't got one of these M12 bandsaws, or you need another, this is a great deal:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-203349800-_-203481118-_-N
> 
> It's $139 for the bare tool, this deal for $200 you get a charger and two of the big batteries.


That is really a great couple of deals.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> That is really a great couple of deals.


Yes, it is.

Something for people to be aware of with the M12 Bandsaw, the "XC" battery that comes with it is an older 3.0 model. 

In the sale linked above, the free XC battery is a 4.0 model. So you would get one 3.0 and one 4.0.

The new M12 XC batteries coming out in September are 6.0  The smaller sized batteries are going from 2.0 to 3.0.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yes, it is.
> 
> Something for people to be aware of with the M12 Bandsaw, the "XC" battery that comes with it is an older 3.0 model.
> 
> ...


All good info to know. I may just have to sell a bandsaw or two and get the M12, been making me drool for a while now.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

TRurak said:


> I've had the m12 sub compact band saw for 2 years and I wouldn't be without it again. It was worth every penny. I'm looking at the dewalt deep cut 20v band saw next. Going with dewalt because I already own a bunch of 20v tools and batteries


I like the idea of the whole micro portaband but, it just looks to me like another battery group to get setup for.
I'll admit, I would like to have some of the smaller tools. I can't see why they can't just pick a voltage and stay with it.
What's the point in a 12 volt tool? Watts are watts. I would just prefer a smaller 18 volt battery for a smaller tool and be able to use the same charger or be able to use a larger or smaller battery between tools.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Suncoast Power said:


> I like the idea of the whole micro portaband but, it just looks to me like another battery group to get setup for.
> I'll admit, I would like to have some of the smaller tools. I can't see why they can't just pick a voltage and stay with it.
> What's the point in a 12 volt tool? Watts are watts. I would just prefer a smaller 18 volt battery for a smaller tool and be able to use the same charger or be able to use a larger or smaller battery between tools.


This post is crazy.

People LOVE 12V tools, it's all I use 90% of the time. I have no problem with 2 sizes of batteries and most other people don't seem to either.

The M12 tools are excellent, as you can see by the replies of everyone else in this thread.

M12 tools work excellent for their purpose, but sometimes you need to turn a large holesaw or cut thru something especially thick and that's when you use the M18 tools. It's a great system.

As for using the same charger, the standard M18 charger charges both M18 and M12 batteries.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Hack,
I think I'm stuck in the mentality that battery tools should be equal to corded tools.
The trend seems to be battery tools replacing high effort and repetitive hand tools such as a hacksaw and screwdrivers.

I have 18 volt fuel and sometimes they just are not powerful enough.

I have a heavy power job coming up where I can charge that mini portaband and the M12 cable cutter and a few of the other M12 goodies.

I'm sure the guys will end up with all of it when the job is over but at least I'll know if they are useful enough to pick up a set for my truck.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I just bought another M12 bandsaw kit for $154. That is dirt cheap in my opinion. hell, I have paid $40 for a freaking hack saw before. This is just for **** around the shop even.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I just bought another M12 bandsaw kit for $154. That is dirt cheap in my opinion. hell, I have paid $40 for a freaking hack saw before. This is just for **** around the shop even.


I saw a saw that cheap too.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Suncoast Power said:


> I think I'm stuck in the mentality that battery tools should be equal to corded tools.


I find the M12 tools so useful I still haven't bothered to upgrade my 18v tools to the Fuel line. Now I am even thinking I might just stick with M12 and corded tools. I don't do residential construction, if I did the M18 Super Hawg would be a must. If you drive BIG lags or deck screws you need a big impact driver. The 18v is convenient for big hole saws but it seems like there's always power available when I'm doing that. 



> I'm sure the guys will end up with all of it when the job is over but at least I'll know if they are useful enough to pick up a set for my truck.


I bet you a dollar if you use the M12 bandsaw once, you'll be claiming at least one tool for yourself. I appreciate good tools in general, and I am more of a hand tool whore than power tool whore, but it's one of the very few that works so well I get a kick out of using it every time I pick it up. I go around trimming things that don't need to be touched and making people watch how well it works.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This post is crazy.
> 
> People LOVE 12V tools, it's all I use 90% of the time. I have no problem with 2 sizes of batteries and most other people don't seem to either.
> 
> ...





splatz said:


> I find the M12 tools so useful I still haven't bothered to upgrade my 18v tools to the Fuel line. Now I am even thinking I might just stick with M12 and corded tools. I don't do residential construction, if I did the M18 Super Hawg would be a must. If you drive BIG lags or deck screws you need a big impact driver. The 18v is convenient for big hole saws but it seems like there's always power available when I'm doing that.
> 
> I bet you a dollar if you use the M12 bandsaw once, you'll be claiming at least one tool for yourself. I appreciate good tools in general, and I am more of a hand tool whore than power tool whore, but it's one of the very few that works so well I get a kick out of using it every time I pick it up. I go around trimming things that don't need to be touched and making people watch how well it works.



I couldn't agree with you more, with all the improvements that have been made with battery power and the quality of the new tool designs one has to take advantage of the progress that has been made. A sawzall is the only 18v tool I use constantly. 

You would think that folks that are such liberal progressives in their thinking in other areas would come out of the dark ages and come up to speed on tools that would make them more efficient rather than stick with old standards and just complain.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I find the M12 tools so useful I still haven't bothered to upgrade my 18v tools to the Fuel line. Now I am even thinking I might just stick with M12 and corded tools. I don't do residential construction, if I did the M18 Super Hawg would be a must. If you drive BIG lags or deck screws you need a big impact driver. The 18v is convenient for big hole saws but it seems like there's always power available when I'm doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet you a dollar if you use the M12 bandsaw once, you'll be claiming at least one tool for yourself. I appreciate good tools in general, and I am more of a hand tool whore than power tool whore, but it's one of the very few that works so well I get a kick out of using it every time I pick it up. I go around trimming things that don't need to be touched and making people watch how well it works.


Splatz, you're a man after my own heart. 

I'm finding most of my uses for power tools can be handled as well or better by M12 tools.

Thinking back to when I started my business, I have used my 18V Dewalt sawzall to cut 2" PVC 75% of the time. I have used it to make quick cuts of scab pieces of wood or trimmed a plywood backerboard the other 25% of the time. All of that could be done with the M12 hackzall.

There was 1 times when I needed to use my sawzall to cut a 12" round hole thru a house for a large exhaust fan, but the Dewalt 18V was bogged down badly, I used 4 batteries to get thru it. I should have used the 120V super sawzall for that. The newer M18 Fuel sawzall would probably have worked well, but why buy such an expensive tool for a once every 4 year type of job? 

I always carry an old fashioned Milwaukee Magnum Holeshooter pistol grip drill in my truck for larger holes, a right angle drill that I never use too. But for most of my drilling an 18V is fine. So in the interest of not wanting to setup temp power, I will be buying the Milwaukee M18 drill. The new one is a beast, 1,200inlbs of torque. I am not going to go too excessive with the M18 line, so the 2 batteries and charger that come with the drill will be enough, if I need another tool I will buy it bare tool.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Splatz, you're a man after my own heart.
> 
> I'm finding most of my uses for power tools can be handled as well or better by M12 tools.
> 
> ...


In Milwaukee 18v line up I have the 1/2" right angle drill, 1/2" hammer drill driver, SDS hammerdrill, and 2 sawzalls. I use the sawzall very often. Even when I was side jobbing daily it was rare to need the rest of the 18v tools. The M12 tools work great for me. 

Hack you are right on the money with the battery comment. The lithium batteries have a shelf life if you use them or not. So having just two is very sound. When they are weak you buy more.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Thinking back to when I started my business, I have used my 18V Dewalt sawzall to cut 2" PVC 75% of the time. I have used it to make quick cuts of scab pieces of wood or trimmed a plywood backerboard the other 25% of the time. All of that could be done with the M12 hackzall.


If you want the full splatzperience, try this on. Some may think I am goofing but this saw 










is great for those tasks. There are some great inexpensive hand saws that take up next to no space in a toolbox. They cut surprisingly fast and easy, you won't believe it. 

The shock and awe value alone is worth it. I was using it to cut plywood for backboards last week, customers were absolutely horrified to see someone using a hand saw to cut wood. When they saw how fast and easy it went you'd have thought they watched a man discover fire.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> In Milwaukee 18v line up I have the 1/2" right angle drill, 1/2" hammer drill driver, SDS hammerdrill, and 2 sawzalls. I use the sawzall very often. Even when I was side jobbing daily it was rare to need the rest of the 18v tools. The M12 tools work great for me.
> 
> Hack you are right on the money with the battery comment. The lithium batteries have a shelf life if you use them or not. So having just two is very sound. When they are weak you buy more.


Wait a minute, I thought you were on a disability retirement?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

The m12 portaband is next on my list. Currently the only corded tool I have in my truck is a droplight. I might bust out the corded Rigid holehawg for a couple houses I have to wire coming up, but I might just use the cordless hole hawg instead. It's done all of my bigger drilling for the past 8 months, and handled it with aplomb.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> The m12 portaband is next on my list. Currently the only corded tool I have in my truck is a droplight. I might bust out the corded Rigid holehawg for a couple houses I have to wire coming up, but I might just use the cordless hole hawg instead. It's done all of my bigger drilling for the past 8 months, and handled it with aplomb.


If you haven't you may want to look into the cordless lights. They range from 4 to 8 hours and no heat. The draw back being led is that they are hard on the eyes if in view. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Hack you are right on the money with the battery comment. The lithium batteries have a shelf life if you use them or not. So having just two is very sound. When they are weak you buy more.


This is a big reason I'm leaning toward all the once-in-a-while tools corded. The lithium batteries lose charge on the shelf, the battery's lifespan is limited, the run time erodes over the years, if you leave them in the charger all the time that limits the lifespan even more, leaving them fully drained isn't good either... 

So when you need them, you often have to wait for them to charge, and you have to scrap all your tools every five years or so, and if you discover the batteries are shot the day you really need it, then you're going to be driving back to get the corded one anyway. If you use a $400 cordless tool four times a year, and it lasts five years, that's about $20 every time you use it  

The ones I use constantly - they earn their keep ten times over even if I have to replace batteries now and then.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

zac said:


> If you haven't you may want to look into the cordless lights. They range from 4 to 8 hours and no heat. The draw back being led is that they are hard on the eyes if in view.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I have one of them. I figured if I had 100' of extension cords in the truck, I might as well have something to plug into them. :laughing:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> The m12 portaband is next on my list. Currently the only corded tool I have in my truck is a droplight. I might bust out the corded Rigid holehawg for a couple houses I have to wire coming up, but I might just use the cordless hole hawg instead. It's done all of my bigger drilling for the past 8 months, and handled it with aplomb.


Have had a couple Terralux TLW-100 LED drop lights since they came out. They charge off the cigarette lighter and last for hours. I recommend them highly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> This is a big reason I'm leaning toward all the once-in-a-while tools corded. The lithium batteries lose charge on the shelf, the battery's lifespan is limited, the run time erodes over the years, if you leave them in the charger all the time that limits the lifespan even more, leaving them fully drained isn't good either...
> 
> So when you need them, you often have to wait for them to charge, and you have to scrap all your tools every five years or so, and if you discover the batteries are shot the day you really need it, then you're going to be driving back to get the corded one anyway. If you use a $400 cordless tool four times a year, and it lasts five years, that's about $20 every time you use it
> 
> The ones I use constantly - they earn their keep ten times over even if I have to replace batteries now and then.


Wow, you're making me eat my earlier words about you being my one and only someone 

I have had the exact opposite experience with batteries. The newer lithium M12's that I have hold a charge for a long time. I have a bunch that I don't use that often and I will pop them in the charger every month or so and within 1 minute it will turn to green. They don't seem to lose a charge at all.

My Dewalt 18V batteries discharge something like 15% per day I have read. And those batteries seem to lose capacity quickly. All of my M12 batteries are still going strong. I just tested my oldest one the other day in the M12 Sticklight, I gave up after 4 hours of it being on because that is what I got with all the new batteries.

The only downside to the lithium are that they don't work when they are very cold, but that is why I keep them all in a little bin on the floor in front of the passenger seat. On cold mornings I blast the heat and all the batteries are ready to go by the time I get to the job. I keep the caulk and other stuff like that there too.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> This is a big reason I'm leaning toward all the once-in-a-while tools corded. The lithium batteries lose charge on the shelf, the battery's lifespan is limited, the run time erodes over the years, if you leave them in the charger all the time that limits the lifespan even more, leaving them fully drained isn't good either...
> 
> *Oh not completely accurate my brother. Yes Li-on batteries have a shelf life but they hold their charge far longer while idle than any other batteries, making them more useful to the occasional user.*
> 
> ...



*I have basically 5 types of batteries I keep charged all the time (M12, M18, Makita 18v, Dremel 12v, and DeWalt 7.2v), I also have DeWalt 18v, Ryobi 18v and Bosch 12v that I would charge today if I was going to use them tomorrow. This is why I have been thinking about trying to upgrade to just Milwaukee tools.*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Right now I have M12 and Dewalt 18V, but I have been selling off all my Dewalt 18V and will be getting M18 to replace some of it. But I have found that I really don't need that many tools, so I won't be replacing all the Dewalt 18V that I am selling.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I remember some other guy used to post all his answers in blue text. Everybody used to jump on him for it. He was an apprentice I think. This was like 5 yrs ago. I'm pretty sure I am missing out on important stuff in Mechanical's posts but F'' trying to read that ..................


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I still haven't picked up the M fuel cordless fan yet because the only ones are way out in the West Oahu Home Depot , but last night I did get a nice Makita brad nail shooter that uses Makita 3 hour batteries that I have 3 of. I use tons of highly illegal to use wood channel molding to cover romex cables run along the wall surfaces of wooden houses prevalent here. These Islands are light yrs ahead of the rest of the world in allowing it to be used even thought the nec does not recognize it as a wiring method. I have owned lots of Paslode gas powered nail guns that do the same thing in the past , but they usually need to go in for servicing at least every other year or so. These new guns don't need propane gas at all. I'm rewiring a big two story house now, and will be running a couple of hundred feet of the medium size wood channel on that job. I sure could use my M-18 FUEL battery fan though, that place is hot as hell this time of year. It's funny, I can get Home Depot to bring Generators in from mainland sources, but try to get them to have a battery fan delivered from one of the other stores twenty miles away and they give me excuses for not doing it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I remember some other guy used to post all his answers in blue text. Everybody used to jump on him for it. He was an apprentice I think. This was like 5 yrs ago. I'm pretty sure I am missing out on important stuff in Mechanical's posts but F'' trying to read that ..................


What's a good color for you Mac? I do it in blue to try and be easier to read. Try bold black.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Second house I find myself rewiring this summer. Why do they always have to be in the summer? Why , why, why?

It's the NEW WORLD ORDER, I'm telling you, has to be it. An evil plot of some sort directed at macmikeman. Probably Hax's is behind this . Damn Italians.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Right now I have M12 and Dewalt 18V, but I have been selling off all my Dewalt 18V and will be getting M18 to replace some of it. But I have found that I really don't need that many tools, so I won't be replacing all the Dewalt 18V that I am selling.


I just use the DeWalt stuff around my house but there is always something to do so it gets used. I would love to swap it all out to the M18 line.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I still haven't picked up the M fuel cordless fan yet because the only ones are way out in the West Oahu Home Depot , but last night I did get a nice Makita brad nail shooter that uses Makita 3 hour batteries that I have 3 of. I use tons of highly illegal to use wood channel molding to cover romex cables run along the wall surfaces of wooden houses prevalent here. These Islands are light yrs ahead of the rest of the world in allowing it to be used even thought the nec does not recognize it as a wiring method. I have owned lots of Paslode gas powered nail guns that do the same thing in the past , but they usually need to go in for servicing at least every other year or so. These new guns don't need propane gas at all. I'm rewiring a big two story house now, and will be running a couple of hundred feet of the medium size wood channel on that job. I sure could use my M-18 FUEL battery fan though, that place is hot as hell this time of year. It's funny, I can get Home Depot to bring Generators in from mainland sources, but try to get them to have a battery fan delivered from one of the other stores twenty miles away and they give me excuses for not doing it.


Why does wood have to be a listed wiring method?

We run romex behind molding all the time, there is nothing in the NEC against that.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why does wood have to be a listed wiring method?
> 
> We run romex behind molding all the time, there is nothing in the NEC against that.


*I believe that the molding not being "listed" is the issue.*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *I believe that the molding not being "listed" is the issue.*


I think I am missing something here...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I think I am missing something here...


*PVC conduit, EMT, rigid, wiremold, etc are all listed raceways. This wooden molding isn't sit would be failed by an inspector.*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *PVC conduit, EMT, rigid, wiremold, etc are all listed raceways. This wooden molding isn't sit would be failed by an inspector.*


*Those are raceways to put conductors into. Mac is talking about hiding and/or protecting romex. You can put romex into anything or nothing. A stud cavity in a house isn't a listed raceway.

We run romex behind molding all the time, there is nothing in the NEC against that.

BTW, why are we talking so loud???*


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> *Those are raceways to put conductors into. Mac is talking about hiding and/or protecting romex. You can put romex into anything or nothing. A stud cavity in a house isn't a listed raceway.
> 
> We run romex behind molding all the time, there is nothing in the NEC against that.*


*A cable inside a wall cavity in open air or behind molding is different than a cable inside a groove in a molding making it a raceway.*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> A cable behind molding is different than a cable inside a groove in a molding making it a raceway.












That's not a raceway. Lookup the definition of a raceway. If anything, it may be a sleeve. But even that's a stretch.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 88754
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a raceway. Lookup the definition of a raceway. If anything, it may be a sleeve. But even that's a stretch.


*Don't want to take my word for it, ask an inspector but then you may need a permit!*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *Don't want to take my word for it, ask an inspector but then you may need a permit!*


No inspector would say that. 

A raceway begins and ends at approved fitting in approved enclosures. You can run a piece of romex thru a piece of EMT for protection and that EMT is NOT a raceway in that situation. Nor does it have to be listed. You can replace the EMT with a piece of plumbing pipe.

A piece of wood covering romex is not a raceway either. I don't know where you got that from, but I will bet you Majewski's savings account that you can't substantiate it with code.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

That is good to know about the M12s holding a charge on the shelf - they haven't sit idle yet! The V18s (previous generation Milwaukee) did not hold a charge long for me. They also suck in the cold weather. I bought a pair of V18 nicads on clearance, they are good enough for limited use and do OK in cold weather. They seem to have a decent shelf life.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think the only thing keeping you from tucking romex behind a molding is you need a nailing plate the entire length of it. 

This article 

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2001/07/01/rewiring-a-vintage-house










they use U-channel which is thick enough that it doesn't have to be listed to comply with code.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I think the only thing keeping you from tucking romex behind a molding is you need a nailing plate the entire length of it.
> 
> This article
> 
> ...


You don't need a nail plate when romex is behind molding.

Your article is written by a handiman who doesn't know code. The steel U-channel was not necessary.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I think I am missing something here...


I can see your side of this and it is a good argument if anybody ever does get picky about wire molding. There are inspectors here who consider it a raceway and use that term to make us use uf in wood molds that are run on the exterior , such as flood light fixtures hanging out on the soffit hip. One in particular will actually state uf must be used in raceways on the exterior because raceways on the exterior are wet locations in the code book when he see's wood molding covering romex on the outside of a house. I always begged to differ on that, but ..... I need to pass inspections so I can get paid...... so.......... Any way it is an expensive method of running wire since the wood mold costs around 13 dollars for an 8 foot length. But it does look great against tongue an groove paneling which makes up 99 percent of the old houses in Hawaii.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I can see your side of this and it is a good argument if anybody ever does get picky about wire molding. There are inspectors here who consider it a raceway and use that term to make us use uf in wood molds that are run on the exterior , such as flood light fixtures hanging out on the soffit hip. One in particular will actually state uf must be used in raceways on the exterior because raceways on the exterior are wet locations in the code book when he see's wood molding covering romex on the outside of a house. I always begged to differ on that, but ..... I need to pass inspections so I can get paid...... so.......... Any way it is an expensive method of running wire since the wood mold costs around 13 dollars for an 8 foot length. But it does look great against tongue an groove paneling which makes up 99 percent of the old houses in Hawaii.


Hmmm, I can't see using wood outside to cover romex, but if I did I guess I would probably use UF too. But again, I can't see using wood outside at all.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> You don't need a nail plate when romex is behind molding.
> 
> Your article is written by a handiman who doesn't know code. The steel U-channel was not necessary.


I don't know if he knew code, but if he didn't he stumbled into decent protection from physical damage. 



> 300.4E
> (E) Cables and Raceways Installed in Shallow Grooves.
> Cable- or raceway-type wiring methods installed in a
> groove, to be covered by wallboard, siding, paneling, carpeting,
> ...


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I don't know if he knew code, but if he didn't he stumbled into decent protection from physical damage.


I've never considered the open space behind base molding to be a shallow groove. I remember in depth discussions on doing this at Mike Holt's and other forums years ago and no one ever brought that up. It's always been a very common thing and code compliant.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

splatz said:


> I don't know if he knew code, but if he didn't he stumbled into decent protection from physical damage.


There is no shallow groove behind this molding, the molding itself is a shallow groove, so I don't think that code is correct in referring to my method. Nothing is covering the molding except paint and calking so there is very little chance of a nail penetrating the molding as long as the person doing the nailing is not a stupid haole who doesn't know what electrical wood molding looks like. There are those guys . The move here and cut thru the molding and wire trying to cut an opening for a sliding door where a window was , it happens often. We confiscate their sawzall's from them and take their wallets away with a warning to not do it again.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> There is no shallow groove behind this molding, the molding itself is a shallow groove, so I don't think that code is correct in referring to my method. Nothing is covering the molding except paint and calking so there is very little chance of a nail penetrating the molding as long as the person doing the nailing is not a stupid haole who doesn't know what electrical wood molding looks like. There are those guys . The move here and cut thru the molding and wire trying to cut an opening for a sliding door where a window was , it happens often. We confiscate their sawzall's from them and take their wallets away with a warning to not do it again.


You want me to send you an M18 fan? I don't want you dying of heat exhaustion on us.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> I've never considered the open space behind base molding to be a shallow groove. I remember in depth discussions on doing this at Mike Holt's and other forums years ago and no one ever brought that up. It's always been a very common thing and code compliant.



There is the confusion. If there was open space, the cable could flex out of the way from someone nailing into the molding. 

I wouldn't be allowed to router out a 1/2" X 1/2" channel in the baseboard and tuck Romex in it and nail up the baseboard against drywall, not without physical protection as detailed above.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> There is the confusion. If there was open space, the cable could flex out of the way from someone nailing into the molding.
> 
> I wouldn't be allowed to router out a 1/2" X 1/2" channel in the baseboard and tuck Romex in it and nail up the baseboard against drywall, not without physical protection as detailed above.


A 1/2" x 1/2" channel cut into the plaster would be a groove, and covering it with something would be against code as cited above, I agree to that.

Stapling the romex to the 2-4" opening underneath the base molding where there is no plaster isnt a shallow groove, IMO. And from what I have seen on much stricter code forums, they seem to agree.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No inspector would say that.
> 
> A raceway begins and ends at approved fitting in approved enclosures. You can run a piece of romex thru a piece of EMT for protection and that EMT is NOT a raceway in that situation. Nor does it have to be listed. You can replace the EMT with a piece of plumbing pipe.
> 
> A piece of wood covering romex is not a raceway either. I don't know where you got that from, but I will bet you Majewski's savings account that you can't substantiate it with code.


*Bro I am no code guru and don't play one on the internet but I've been around the trade long enough to see what flies and what doesn't and that wouldn't fly with any inspector worth his salt that I've ever known off.

The instances Mac mentioned are just prime examples of the reasons why!*


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *Bro I am no code guru and don't play one on the internet but I've been around the trade long enough to see what flies and what doesn't and that wouldn't fly with any inspector worth his salt that I've ever known off.
> 
> The instances Mac mentioned are just prime examples of the reasons why!*



But it is allowed here by inspectors, because mostly they did it during their twenty five years they were electricians and were taught how by the previous guys they worked with who had been doing it for 25 years and....


Hax is wrong about not using it on exteriors. It is the best way to deal with soffit mounted lights on hip rafters , much much nicer than emt stub outs. 
looks great on indoors as well. Just ask Tesla. He's seen it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> *Bro I am no code guru and don't play one on the internet but I've been around the trade long enough to see what flies and what doesn't and that wouldn't fly with any inspector worth his salt that I've ever known off.*


* 
It's not against code and I have never seen nor heard of an inspector not allowing it.

As I mentioned 3 times now, it's is commonly discussed on multiple forums and no one seems to ever have a problem.

It seems like you never had a problem doing it either, you are just assuming inspectors wouldn't like it? 



The instances Mac mentioned are just prime examples of the reasons why!

Click to expand...

*The instances that Mac brought up were outside and using UF cable :blink:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What's with the ******ed bold text? Are your posts really that much more important than everyone else's?? Jesus, you're worse than me!!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What's with the ******ed bold text? Are your posts really that much more important than everyone else's?? Jesus, you're worse than me!!


*I like it *, *my son!*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Hax is wrong about not using it on exteriors. It is the best way to deal with soffit mounted lights on hip rafters , much much nicer than emt stub outs.
> looks great on indoors as well. Just ask Tesla. He's seen it.


Hax is wrong about what? I just said I can't see using wood outside is all. I didn't say you can't. We use aluminum and plastic for soffits, wood is so 1950's on the mainland.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

We don't.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You people are all homosexuals.

Let's get back to awesome Milwaukee tools.

I can't wait until September when the new lights and batteries come out.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> We don't.


*Fire me!*


----------



## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> A 1/2" x 1/2" channel cut into the plaster would be a groove, and covering it with something would be against code as cited above, I agree to that.
> 
> Stapling the romex to the 2-4" opening underneath the base molding where there is no plaster isnt a shallow groove, IMO. And from what I have seen on much stricter code forums, they seem to agree.



I was referring to using a router on the wooden baseboard, but either way, same concept...can't do it without physical protection.

Which begs the question, in your area there is a gap where the wall material (be it plaster or drywall) stops short of the floor?

Every time I've pulled baseboard in old homes the plaster was run to the floor. I've worked in all vintages from late 1700's to present and maybe it's just a regional thing.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> I was referring to using a router on the wooden baseboard, but either way, same concept...can't do it without physical protection.


 Why can't you do it in that situation? 

Here is something Dennis Alwon said during one of these discussions a while back on another forum:



> Nm cable is allowed to be installed on the surface. If someone decides to cover it with any means they choice (cove molding in this case) then it should not change the NEC compliance that it had before the molding was installed.


IMO, the narrow groove thing in the code has more to do with making a small trench in a cement wall for a cable, and then plastering over it.



> Which begs the question, in your area there is a gap where the wall material (be it plaster or drywall) stops short of the floor?


 Yes. Depending on the height of the base molding (sometimes 10"+) it can stop very high.



> Every time I've pulled baseboard in old homes the plaster was run to the floor. I've worked in all vintages from late 1700's to present and .


 Generally you can see the entire 2X bottom plate plus some of the studs and the cavity between them. I used to drill the studs when you can see them, but it's too much work. Much faster to just staple to the surface of the bottom plate and throw the molding back up.



> maybe it's just a regional thing


 Or possibly the price/quality of the house. If they knew that they were going to throw up small clamshell molding, maybe they probably made sure that the plasterers went all the way down. While not caring as much if they were installing tall molding.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drewsserviceco said:


> I was referring to using a router on the wooden baseboard, but either way, same concept...can't do it without physical protection.
> 
> Which begs the question, in your area there is a gap where the wall material (be it plaster or drywall) stops short of the floor?
> 
> Every time I've pulled baseboard in old homes the plaster was run to the floor. I've worked in all vintages from late 1700's to present and maybe it's just a regional thing.


That was a very typical plaster method, the only variation being a 2" wide board at the base of the wall for the plaster to mate against. I have seen this is few very well constructed homes vintage 1780s.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

> Nm cable is allowed to be installed on the surface. If someone decides to cover it with any means they choice (cove molding in this case) then it should not change the NEC compliance that it had before the molding was installed.


I'd have to respectfully disagree here because you wouldn't accidentally drive a nail through it hanging a picture if it was on the surface. If someone hangs a string of lights or etc on that molding there could be trouble. But me, I am always worrying about this kind of thing.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Generally you can see the entire 2X bottom plate plus some of the studs and the cavity between them. I used to drill the studs when you can see them, but it's too much work. Much faster to just staple to the surface of the bottom plate and throw the molding back up.
> 
> Or possibly the price/quality of the house. If they knew that they were going to throw up small clamshell molding, maybe they probably made sure that the plasterers went all the way down. While not caring as much if they were installing tall molding.


I have never seen a situation like you describe here. If the baseboard (1" thick) was attached to the studs and the lathe was installed above the baseboard and plastered over how would it finish out in profile? The sole purpose of baseboard is to protect the plaster from impact damage. There is normally a bed molding or similar design molding on top of the baseboard to finish out the square top wooden baseboard to the plaster. As for clamshell, there was no such thing until WWII when there were massive amounts of housing being built and most of those were just skimcoat plaster over the new invention of "drywall". 

I'm calling BS on this one, pictures or it didn't happen.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I'd have to respectfully disagree here because you wouldn't accidentally drive a nail through it hanging a picture if it was on the surface. If someone hangs a string of lights or etc on that molding there could be trouble. But me, I am always worrying about this kind of thing.


But that doesn't make it against code.

You do realize that there are instances in which you can solidly fasten NM solidly directly behind drywall completely code compliant. It seems like it might be against code, but it's not.

Such as in New England, they put furring strips under the joists, so instead of drilling the joists they run the NM stapled to the bottom of it, then drywall right over it. To me that looks crazy, but it's still code compliant.

Remember, the 1 1/4" rule is from the edge of the framing member. The NM can be run just under the drywall without protection as long as it's 1 1/4" from the framing member.

ETA: Take a look at this page in which many people say they would have stapled the NK right up to the ceiling without the EMT: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/how-hack-65503/

From the 2011 NEC Handbook showing a compliant installation:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I have never seen a situation like you describe here. If the baseboard (1" thick) was attached to the studs


 Why would base molding be attached to the studs? The base molding is attached to the wall well after the plaster is up and done.



> The sole purpose of baseboard is to protect the plaster from impact damage.


 I disagree. The purpose of molding is for looks and to finish off the surface, the same reasons it's used around doors and windows and anywhere else where you make some type of transition. But that has nothing to do with this topic. 



> I'm calling BS on this one, pictures or it didn't happen.


Ok, I will go out right now and pull some molding off someone's wall to take a picture for you 

You just called me a liar. I would take you off my Friends list, but you never made it onto the list. 

You are now at the kiddie table with Essex and emtnut. Goodbye.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Wow, you're making me eat my earlier words about you being my one and only someone


 Somehow I missed this earlier. You must reconsider. If any one here is the right guy to be of one mind with, it is me: I won't use it more than an hour or so a day, the rest of the time it's all yours.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Somehow I missed this earlier. You must reconsider. If any one here is the right guy to be of one mind with, it is me: I won't use it more than an hour or so a day, the rest of the time it's all yours.


You're still my one and only someone


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why would base molding be attached to the studs? The base molding is attached to the wall well after the plaster is up and done.
> 
> *Whoa you are the one who said it was, Originally Posted by HackWork
> 
> ...


*There's nothing wrong with emtnut. Essex is probably one of your employees!*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Nope, I never said the molding was attached to the studs. The quote of mine that you posted does not say that or anything like that.

Base molding gets attached to the face of the plaster. When you have high base molding, like that old 8" or higher stuff like a lot of the houses around here have, the plaster is often not brought all the way down. They stopped the lath and plaster 3" or so above the floor. So when the molding is removed, you can see the bottom plate and sometimes even the very bottom of each stud. That hollow area behind the molding is where people often run the Romex.

But apparently that's not true, I am lying.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Nope, I never said the molding was attached to the studs. The quote of mine that you posted does not say that or anything like that.
> 
> Base molding gets attached to the face of the plaster. When you have high base molding, like that old 8" or higher stuff like a lot of the houses around here have, the plaster is often not brought all the way down. They stopped the lath and plaster 3" or so above the floor. So when the molding is removed, you can see the bottom plate and sometimes even the very bottom of each stud. That hollow area behind the molding is where people often run the Romex.
> 
> But apparently that's not true, I am lying.


Still not seeing that.
I guess I took what you were saying wrong, your wording wasn't clear to me. Sounded like the baseboard was attached to the studs if when it came off you could see the studs and not just lath. I'm still not crystal on how the bottom plate would be exposed on a plaster wall when those were balloon framed and the sole plate would be lower down on top of the sill not at any floor level.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Still not seeing that.
> I guess I took what you were saying wrong, your wording wasn't clear to me. Sounded like the baseboard was attached to the studs if when it came off you could see the studs and not just lath. I'm still not crystal on how the bottom plate would be exposed on a plaster wall when those were balloon framed and the sole plate would be lower down on top of the sill not at any floor level.


No one ever said balloon framed, certainly not me. I don't see that many balloon framed houses. 

This picture that Spatz posted pretty much shows what I am talking about, only they often didn't use the horizontal nailer at the bottom. 










The reason why I could see studs and not lath is because they stop putting the lath so low. I can't remember ever seeing a piece of lath over the bottom plate, usually they stop the lath 2-3" above the floor since they don't plaster that low. Or, at least, that is what I have seen very often.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Why can't you do it in that situation?
> 
> IMO, the narrow groove thing in the code has more to do with making a small trench in a cement wall for a cable, and then plastering over it.



Whether it is wood or cement, it's the same thing. The cable is trapped (and not 1.25" from edge of framing members / or a is part of the wall surface) and is subject to physical damage.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> Whether it is wood or cement, it's the same thing. The cable is trapped (and not 1.25" from edge of framing members / or a is part of the wall surface) and is subject to physical damage.


Whether it is subject to physical damage is a whole other story. Like I posted in the quote from Dennis, he doesn't think it is subject to physical damage on the surface of the wall or inside of the cove of a piece of molding over the top of it. I agree with that.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Shut up you bozos. 

This thread is worthless without pics.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> No one ever said balloon framed, certainly not me. I don't see that many balloon framed houses.



Plaster and lath was in use when balloon framing was the common technique. 

I wouldn't dare say always to you, because you would take it to literal. 

Traditional framing came along with plasterboard and drywall, so if you were looking into a plaster and lathe wall you would almost always be looking into a ballon framed wall, which would not have a bottom plate.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Whether it is subject to physical damage is a whole other story. Like I posted in the quote from Dennis, he doesn't think it is subject to physical damage on the surface of the wall or inside of the cove of a piece of molding over the top of it. I agree with that.


If you reread Dennis' comment it pertains more to the fact that once the nm is installed and inspected one can't control what happens after the fact.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No one ever said balloon framed, certainly not me. I don't see that many balloon framed houses.
> 
> This picture that Spatz posted pretty much shows what I am talking about, only they often didn't use the horizontal nailer at the bottom.
> 
> The reason why I could see studs and not lath is because they stop putting the lath so low. I can't remember ever seeing a piece of lath over the bottom plate, usually they stop the lath 2-3" above the floor since they don't plaster that low. Or, at least, that is what I have seen very often.












Thank God you picked electrical, you'd never make it in carpentry. I'm done trying to get this all cleared up.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drewsserviceco said:


> Plaster and lath was in use when balloon framing was the common technique.
> 
> I wouldn't dare say always to you, because you would take it to literal.
> 
> Traditional framing came along with plasterboard and drywall, so if you were looking into a plaster and lathe wall you would almost always be looking into a ballon framed wall, which would not have a bottom plate.


That is simply not true. Most of the houses in my area are plaster and lath while being conventionally framed. 

I love balloon framed houses, but I hardly find any.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

drewsserviceco said:


> Plaster and lath was in use when balloon framing was the common technique.
> 
> I wouldn't dare say always to you, because you would take it to literal.
> 
> Traditional framing came along with plasterboard and drywall, so if you were looking into a plaster and lathe wall you would almost always be looking into a ballon framed wall, which would not have a bottom plate.


You are on the same train of thinking I am. Wood lath is to balloon framing as clamshell molding is to post 1940s housing. That post 1940s housing used platform framing (sole plates) wire lath or "drywall" (2'x4' sheets) under a plaster skim coat. Harvesting of smaller trees and cheaper materials for the housing boom of post WWII was a huge factor in platform framing to become the norm.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p484/Mac_Dean/Memes/smell9_zpsamrjxcvr.jpg[/MG]
> 
> Thank God you picked electrical, you'd never make it in carpentry. I'm done trying to get this all cleared up.[/quote]
> 
> ...


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

seen many where plaster did not go all the way to the floor, I think there was a nailer for the bottom of BB to attach to


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> seen many where plaster did not go all the way to the floor, I think there was a nailer for the bottom of BB to attach to


Yup typically a rough cut 5/4" x 2" to compensate for the lath and plaster so the baseboard has a firm straight base to nail to.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> My father was a carpenter, I have plenty of experience. But that has nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> You are arguing how far down the plasterers went. This is simply lame.


Nope, my contention is pulling off baseboard in a wood lath and plaster house and seeing a sole plate. Not very likely. 

When I was a kid outlets were often installed in baseboard. I was the kid that cut the hole for the box with a keyhole saw while the mechanic ran the wiring. Can't say how many holes I cut but can't think of one that a plate was behind the baseboard. Those houses were all over central NJ for the most part. Can't see how going a tad north would change construction techniques of houses built in the same time frames.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Nope, my contention is pulling off baseboard in a wood lath and plaster house and seeing a sole plate. Not very likely.
> 
> When I was a kid outlets were often installed in baseboard. I was the kid that cut the hole for the box with a keyhole saw while the mechanic ran the wiring. Can't say how many holes I cut but can't think of one that a plate was behind the baseboard. Those houses were all over central NJ for the most part. Can't see how going a tad north would change construction techniques of houses built in the same time frames.


What you just said is that you don't know for sure, but you are making an assumption off of limited experience.

I'm not going to argue with someone who says I don't know what I see correctly. 

This discussion is gayer than you making sweet, passionate love to a dude.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What you just said is that you don't know for sure, but you are making an assumption off of limited experience.
> 
> I'm not going to argue with someone who says I don't know what I see correctly.
> 
> This discussion is gayer than you making sweet, passionate love to a dude.


I disagree with your assumption of limited experience. Talking to you is just like talking to my son. He thinks he knows everything too. The only exception I know of would be Sears houses that were platform built. That said in the areas I've worked the percentage of those with wood lath are the minority.

Gay, funny from guy that posts some of the comments you do.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I disagree with your assumption of limited experience. Talking to you is just like talking to my son. He thinks he knows everything too.


You see, you're doing it again. You've turned it all around.

I don't know everything, I only stated to seeing something in the past, that's it. But apparently that is so horrible that you had to jump in and turn it into a giant controversy, because you know everything about it all. 

*It is YOU* who is here telling me that I am wrong. It is you acting like the know-it-all. YOU are the person here who says that I didn't see what I said I saw, and the only thing you have to base it off of is what you saw in a totally different area.

Like I said, my ONLY claim is seeing a bottom plate behind a plaster wall because the plaster did not go all the way to the floor. That's it, I am not telling you anything about your area nor am I making assumptions about anything. YOU are here telling me that I am wrong without having any proof other than assumptions based off of working in a different area.

You really are being an asshole, a gay one at that.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> You see, you're doing it again. You've turned it all around.
> 
> I don't know everything, I only stated to seeing something in the past, that's it. But apparently that is so horrible that you had to jump in and turn it into a giant controversy, because you know everything about it all.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm the only one trying to correct you cause the guys that have been here with you longer have seen the childish way you carry on and just don't want to step in it with you. I really don't care about butting heads with anyone.

As for my experience, I've worked in NY, NJ, PA, MI, NC, SC, VA, and CT. All the home construction has been similar. 

As for gay, I guarantee I had more women before I was 21 than you could have had with your attitude in a lifetime. 
I'm an asshole, that is funny from you. Actually I'd bet more guys here would just call you a typical J O.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Maybe I'm the only one trying to correct you cause the guys that have been here with you longer have seen the childish way you carry on and just don't want to step in it with you. I really don't care about butting heads with anyone.
> 
> As for my experience, I've worked in NY, NJ, PA, MI, NC, SC, VA, and CT. All the home construction has been similar.
> 
> ...


Dude, you are just a dooshbag know-it-all. Seriously, look at yourself.

You are literally here telling me that I didn't see something that I see all the time. And you have absolutely nothing to base that assumption off of other than what you saw in other areas. 

And then you have the audacity to say that I think I know everything? 

You MUST be drunk. You're normally an asshole, but not this big of one. Sleep it off big boy.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Dude, you are just a dooshbag know-it-all. Seriously, look at yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Typical


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Can we all just hug this out?:vs_OMG::vs_OMG::vs_shake::vs_love::vs_love::vs_blush::vs_blush:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

So , I got my M12 bandsaw off amazon for $154 for the kit. Hell the battery is worth $50. I can say that it is the real deal and not rebuilt or anything like that.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Oh and around here the plaster goes all the way down. Just like......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I almost never see any plaster at all. Very very seldom. Old ritz neighborhoods there were some houses built with 2x interior walls , sheather with tongue and groove wood vertical boards on both sides. This separated the wealthy from the peons who had only singe tongue and groove singe board walls for the interior and exterior walls, propped up by 4x4's and a middle horizontal 2x10 belly band around the exterior side. I am currently rewiring one like my first example - all walls are double sided and there is x shaped interior fire blocking in each cavity that is making this a real pain in the ass to drop down romex for light switches inside the walls. With the single board walls, I just go on the surface with wood moldings covering the cables. 33 hours so far has me 3/4's done on the ground floor of a two story. The ceiling of the bottom floor was removed so I could access all the ceiling wiring, by a general contractor who is now asking me daily how much longer , so he can get a drywall draw from the owners. I respond by telling him it slows down by one day each time he asks the question so so far he has added four days to the operation.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

These pioneer haole builders who came to Hawaii had no regard for the redwood tree forests of California. The single wall houses in the thousands and thousands used redwood tongue and groove boards - millions upon millions of them to build a city of redwood. Drywall screws will split them from top to bottom, rendering them useless, and nowadays it costs better part of $75 per 8 foot long 1''x 8'' redwood tongue and groove boards for a replacement. Our ''old work'' is so unique in nature, it takes a while to become a ''master electrician'' that can replace / repair / extend the wiring in dwellings utilizing that style of building. You get really good at using a powered miter saw and making reverse compound cuts due to the channel groove cut into our wire moldings made of wood. And we use surface mounted plastic outlet and switch boxes sold by Eaton now, that you won't find used anyplace else except for here. 

Exhibit A- https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/T&B/5060WHITE.pdf


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## rully1012 (Oct 17, 2013)

I had the m12 returned it and bought an m18 on ebay for about 160$ brand-new. I thought I didn't need the bigger one. But there's so many things that you will want to cut that are too big for the m12 not to say I got better battery life out of my m18 then the m12. But wouldn't trade my m12 Bluetooth speaker or m12 small drill for trimming out. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

rully1012 said:


> I had the m12 returned it and bought an m18 on ebay for about 160$ brand-new. I thought I didn't need the bigger one. But there's so many things that you will want to cut that are too big for the m12 not to say I got better battery life out of my m18 then the m12. But wouldn't trade my m12 Bluetooth speaker or m12 small drill for trimming out.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


It really depends what you are doing. If most of your work is 1 1/4" pipe or smaller and 1 5/8" strut, the M12 bandsaw is an awesome option. But if you do larger pipe and strut often, the M18 might be the better choice.

Or the best option, get both!


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## sburton224 (Feb 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Or the best option, get both!


My thoughts exactly...for under $500 bucks you can get both with batteries, under $300 if you are already invested in the system. Small price to pay for ease and quicker job completion. Not to mention quality tools that should last quite a while. 

I have both and honestly the M12 gets used the most but it is nice to have the larger just in case.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sburton224 said:


> My thoughts exactly...for under $500 bucks you can get both with batteries, under $300 if you are already invested in the system. Small price to pay for ease and quicker job completion. Not to mention quality tools that should last quite a while.
> 
> I have both and honestly the M12 gets used the most but it is nice to have the larger just in case.


Is there really an advantage to the M18 over the 18v sawzall or the Hatchet?


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