# Tell us where we are wrong



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

There is so much animosity between union and non; If the non union operators out there will not post, I would just like the non union wage earners to let us know why they think that their lot is the best.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Your wrong. :laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Oh Boy!!!!!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

:no: Not another one of these threads?! Haven't we learned to live and let live?


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Your wrong. :laughing:


He didn't say whether or not he was, he wanted to know *where.*


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Your wrong. :laughing:


I can't be wrong. I didn't make a statement.:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

JohnR said:


> He didn't say whether or not he was, he wanted to know *where.*


Non union has good and bad points and so does the union. I don't really know what else to say.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

miller_elex said:


> :no: Not another one of these threads?! Haven't we learned to live and let live?


 You would think.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Those who do not want to get involved with the discussion just have to not post. I am not a S**T stirrer. I am honestly interested if the non union wage earners have a reason to be non union other than maybe they could not get in the union. I cannot be hurt either way. I am just trying to understand.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Union guys are all slugs and non-union guys are all rats, It's a wonder the whole damn country doesn't burn down.:jester:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> Union guys are all slugs and non-union guys are all rats, It's a wonder the whole damn country doesn't burn down.:jester:


I respect your opinion.:thumbsup:


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Well , here is my story......I was non-union until I got an offer to make around 10 dollars more an hour......then I was Union until my contractor stopped paying insurance premiums and just promised us that they would catch up and make it all better in a couple months....the hall didn't want to lose the contractor so they basically let them get away with non-payment(which lapsed all of our covereage) until the job was finished and said contractor filed bankruptcy......I was then laid off and sitting on the books for a year, waiting my turn, and doing the "right thing".......

Eventually I got bored and said screw it.....I am now a non-union electrician once again, working steady, and no longer bored......

I work with some slugs on this crew that would make the ones in the Union proud..........


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> There is so much animosity between union and non; If the non union operators out there will not post, I would just like the non union wage earners to let us know why they think that their lot is the best.


A person that want's to run his own business and has become a master Electrician Should be able to run a business without the union and the Gov telling me what i can pay them,If somone want's to be an employee then they are subject to the market rate thats how it works:thumbsup:


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Those who do not want to get involved with the discussion just have to not post. I am not a S**T stirrer. I am honestly interested if the non union wage earners have a reason to be non union other than maybe they could not get in the union. I cannot be hurt either way. I am just trying to understand.


 
Would you be open to a private message so I don't get flamed?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Electrons don't give a s**t if you're union or not.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Union members are not allowed to think for themselves.

http://bostonherald.com/news/politics/view.bg?articleid=1287184


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Electrons don't give a s**t if you're union or not.






Positives are union, negatives are open shop??????

This has been answered a 1000 times in this forum. 

It is 90% about attitude and the SOME of the union members attitudes and the group mentality of the union is to generally to treat open shop workers as dumb, ignorant, scum, trash, fools and generally do not cut them any slack to the point of not considering them electricians.

So that pretty much sums it up. THREAD CLOSED


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Those who do not want to get involved with the discussion just have to not post. I am not a S**T stirrer. I am honestly interested if the non union wage earners have a reason to be non union other than maybe they could not get in the union. I cannot be hurt either way. I am just trying to understand.


 

See there,,,,,,not knowingly or even meaning to, you're insulting people. You honestly think the ENTIRE world wants to be union,,,,and the only nonunion are peole who can't get in?,,,,,,,Please,,,,,,you're crazy. I've worked union and nonunion, and can honestly say I hate the union. They protect lazy piece of chit workers who would not make it in an open shop.

Or maybe that was a sucker shot, either way Phuck off:whistling2:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

You seem to be an unhappy person.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> You seem to be an unhappy person.


 

Wrong, I'm laughing right now:yes:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Wrong, I'm laughing right now:yes:


Why do you think I am talking about you?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> You seem to be an unhappy person.


 This thread has been closed and re-opened many times. Can we agree to dis-agree, and close this thread ? Before it gets out of hand. :whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Why do you think I am talking about you?


 

I "ass"umed. Since your post followed mine:whistling2:

I'm only picking anyway. There are plenty of good talents in the union, but plenty of slouchers hiding behind the union also.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

I want to be open shop (both as a employer and employee) because I dont belive that any two people (rarely if ever) are worth the same exact amount of money per hour. I do not buy into the "brotherhood" mentality, but not saying horray for me to hell with you either. I just belive we all should make our own way.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I "ass"umed. Since your post followed mine:whistling2:
> 
> I'm only picking anyway. There are plenty of good talents in the union, but plenty of slouchers hiding behind the union also.


I agree with you there.:thumbsup:


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> I want to be open shop (both as a employer and employee) because I dont belive that any two people (rarely if ever) are worth the same exact amount of money per hour. I do not buy into the "brotherhood" mentality, but not saying horray for me to hell with you either. I just belive we all should make our own way.


Damn straight! I am worth what I am worth, am if I am worthless I am out.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Positives are union, negatives are open shop??????
> 
> This has been answered a 1000 times in this forum.
> 
> ...


Why Brian? Why do you have to be biased?

Why didn't you mention all the hatred of union men from non-union members? 

I can quote hundreds upon hundreds of non-union men making snide comments about union workers from this forum alone. Nevermind the real world comments I have received.

I know that you and Badger always say that it never happens, but it *does* and you know that. 

I find it just plain wrong that you ignore this fact. If your post was truly in the interest of full disclosure and ending the animosity, you would have mentioned the fact that the issues go both ways.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> I want to be open shop (both as a employer and employee) because I dont belive that any two people (rarely if ever) are worth the same exact amount of money per hour. I do not buy into the "brotherhood" mentality, but not saying horray for me to hell with you either. I just belive we all should make our own way.


That sounds great, I have no way to refute what you said. 

But when the offers were put on the table when I was younger I took the one that paid better, came with better benefits, and a better retirement plan. The choice that I chose was union.

I still think it was a wise choice to make. 

Sure, I'd like to say how I did it 100% on my own and all that, but in the end, I have responsibilities and I am better able to take care of me and mine in this fashion.

The choice of going with the union doesn't mean that I *can't* "make my own way". When people say that I find it just as offensive as when someone calls a non-union worker a rat.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

I have a few reasons for staying non-union.
1. I worked as a union carpenter. I was actually told flat out that they would not defend me in a dispute because I was a good worker and wouldn't get fired anyway. They needed to save their influence to defend the POS do-nothings because they would loose their job without someone to stand up for them.
2. In my area, if your dad wasn't IBEW you have about a 2% chance of being accepted.
3. I didn't take algebra in high school, therefore I am not qualified to be a union member. Even though I passed my electrical trade school with a high GPA, and had no troubles with any calculations in school. I am aware that I could take a course at the community college, but don't believe that a peice of paper should trump abilities/experience.
4. When I started into trade school the IBEW sent reps out to speak with us. I explained my previous experience, and asked what that would count for in the union. Yhe answer.....zip. I was told I would come in as a first year no matter what. "Noone" (his words not mine) had "ever" been allowed to test in at a higher level. A blatant lie. Not a good way to bring guys over to your way of thinking. Not to mention the starting pay would have been $5 an hour less than the job I had before trade school. Highschool kids living with their folks might be able to make it on that, but guys with families surely cannot.

I hold no annimosity toward union members, I just know it's not the life for ME.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why Brian? Why do you have to be biased?
> 
> Why didn't you mention all the hatred of union men from non-union members?
> 
> ...


1. Have I told you lately to BLOW ME? NO? well blow me.
2. I feel a worker has to put in at least 40 hours a week for a typical job, why not get the most bang for their buck, in many (MOST) cases that is in the union.
3. Many union men are have mixed to bitter feeling against the union for a variety of reasons.
4. Many open shop men have mixed to bitter feelings against the union for a variety of reasons.

BUT I can truly say the only comments I can think of in 40 years from open shop men are:

Lazy Fs, 
No better than us.
F*CKING Pricks (after a union, open shop confrontation brought on by union men).

I have no doubt that some of the comments are based on jealousy, lack of knowledge about the union and in many cases from personal experience.

Being denied membership.
Being denied access to work by pickets.
Lower pay due to denial of membership.
Lower benefits due to denial of membership.
Bitter about making lower wages, knowing they are as good or better than some union men. Even if they are not any better, most workers like to think they are the best at what they do.

But hatred? I can say I cannot think of any hate speech (OH IS THAT PC) from open shop workers, like I have heard from SOME union men, and in this matter the union men out number the open shop men, JUST MY EXPERIENCE.
I have been wrong before, heck at one time I thought you were sane! Go figure.

Snide comments, hell yes; heck I think BLOW ME YOUR JERK could be considered as a snide comment so BLOW ME.

Bob has posted several videos of this happening, find one video showing open shop men picketing a union job and hassling open shop men.

The union is in the minority among electrical workers but I truly feel in spurring animosity they are in the majority. In my opinion the union should try to hold the upper hand. I have tried to organize men and and some of the misguided images I hear from open shop men is way off base. The union has to correct this, in good times we need to be able to recruit open shop men, it would be a lot easier if the open shop men had a rosier image of the union.

We need to take the high road in this not be the leader in the low life, so maybe I expect more from the union.

In closing I would like to say, BLOW ME you hack.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Is that all you got to say?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I can quote hundreds upon hundreds of non-union men making snide comments about union workers from this forum alone.


I didn't really mean 98% of mine... :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Is that all you got to say?


I was trying to answer his questions and his questioning my possible bias opinions; so it is as straight forward and honest as I can be based on what I feel, have heard and experienced?
Well all except the Blow Me thing, that's a hackism


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> I was trying to answer his questions and his questioning my possible bias opinions; so it is as straight forward and honest as I can be based on what I feel, have heard and experienced?
> Well all except the Blow Me thing, that's a hackism


I'm just razzin ya.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

WOW

H.w. thats five blow jobs you owe the John. I am keeping track.

If you had a contractor's license, you could sub that out.

Likely not, you're on the hook to self-perform that part of the scope.

EDIT: I hope you got a case of rubbers in your Doomsday Stockpile! Who knows what the John's picked up doing biz up and down both coasts!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I'm just razzin ya.


first hack now YOU...damn RIV, say it ain't so.:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I didn't really mean 98% of mine... :laughing:


Yes you did, you are a mean, vicious, bitter,:laughing: old electrician.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> Yes you did, you are a mean, vicious, bitter,:laughing: old electrician.


Ok, I can live with that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Ok, I can live with that.


You are old? I thought I MIGHT be wrong there?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> You are old? I thought I MIGHT be wrong there?


Actually you are wrong on that one.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Brian Brian Brian, in all these years and all these forums, I've never seen you write such a long post. There were also a lot less spelling and grammar mistakes than usual. You really took your time and put your heart into this one. Unfortunately, it went in the wrong direction.

My only contention with your original post was that you avoided to mention that the animosity goes *both* ways. If you simply did that, I would agree with your view 100%. You know that I am not the biggest supporter of unions in their current form and I try not to be biased even tho I am a member. 

Instead of admitting that it goes both ways, you made a long drawn out post of excuses and reasons why union members deserve the hate. And requests for gay sex, don't forget about those.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's wierd cause i've never heard brian say anything good about the union. Yet I believe he is a union contractor.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> It's wierd cause i've never heard brian say anything good about the union. Yet I believe he is a union contractor.


I have read Brian tout the benefits of the union on this forum many, many times. He also just as plainly expresses what he sees as the negative side of the union as well. I read his position towards the union as pretty much open-minded and realistic.
As for non-union sparkies trash talkin their union counterparts, I know it happens as I have heard it as well as participated in it myself. I see a slight distinction though. Most non-union trash talkin is directed at an impersonal, faceless "Union". Trash talkin from union guys I have witnessed has been personal and directed at specific individuals. I guess my own personal bias is that I have friends and people I work with regularly, socialize with regularly and who are members of my family that are good electricians, good workers and good people in general in spite of their union affiliation. I view them as exceptions because I know many more who are loud-mouth humps looking for the biggest paycheck for the least amount of effort and brag about that fact.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Loads on both side of the fence.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

If I were union I would have been on unemployment for the past two years instead of making $120,000.

That is good enough reason for me


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

walkerj said:


> If I were union I would have been on unemployment for the past two years instead of making $120,000.
> 
> That is good enough reason for me


That's another stereotype. I'm in the union and made almost as much each of the last 2 years while many, many non-union friends of mine have been out of work during that time.

Don't let the hype fool you, the majority of union workers work full years. And I haven't seen a stitch of credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That's another stereotype. I'm in the union and made almost as much each of the last 2 years while many, many non-union friends of mine have been out of work during that time.
> 
> Don't let the hype fool you, the majority of union workers work full years. And I haven't seen a stitch of credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


I guess you do't know many guys in the locals in South Louisiana.

Go to any locals website around here and they will say there is no work in sight.

My comments were for were I live, not NJ:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

walkerj said:


> I guess you do't know many guys in the locals in South Louisiana.
> 
> Go to any locals website around here and they will say there is no work in sight.
> 
> My comments were for were I live, not NJ:thumbsup:


What percentage of the local is out of work?

How do that relate to the percentage of non-union electrician out of work?

Are you getting these numbers from credible sources or from rumors?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> That's another stereotype. I'm in the union and made almost as much each of the last 2 years while many, many non-union friends of mine have been out of work during that time.
> 
> Don't let the hype fool you, the majority of union workers work full years. And I haven't seen a stitch of credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.






One of the silliest statements ever.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> [/color][/size]
> 
> 
> 
> One of the silliest statements ever.


Why is it silly that I never saw any?

I actually find it silly that you would say that without posting said evidence.

I'm all ears, post away...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Don't let the hype fool you, the majority of union workers work full years. And I haven't seen a stitch of credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


A distinction must be made. When work runs out on the union side, and things look bad for the next year, is when the mind games begin.

PM's know that the people who get layed off, are going to be off riding the book for a long time. The guys know that if they get smoked, it's going to be a long time of hustling on the side until they get their next good job.

The sweat shops use this common knowledge to their advantage. Good guys are berated and treated like crap, the ones with less confidence who calmly bend over, are invited to stay. Often these hands who stay, spend a lot of time on and off riding the hook through the bad times. IMO the only guys working steady through the bad times at a union shop are GF's, apprentices, suck pumps, and relatives. I like to include men who have first-hand knowledge of the manpower supt's secret liking for young blonde boys into the 'relative' group. Dysfunctionality makes a family.

The above situation is common in these parts, where market share is very high. I like to use this scenario to push for a 50/50 Solicit-own-job solution. The problem here with 50/50, is that many of the older hands who are not sophisticated at finding work, will be left out in the cold. A few are slugs, but many are good, honest, loyal, electricians. I won't condone screwing over three worthy electricians just to EFF one slug in his egg sack. Maybe the time will be ripe in five years for 50/50, after these baby boomers retire.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

hackwork said:


> that's another stereotype. I'm in the union and made almost as much each of the last 2 years while many, many non-union friends of mine have been out of work during that time.
> 
> Don't let the hype fool you, the majority of union workers work full years. And i haven't seen a stitch of credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


 







....................


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 4438
> ....................


That graph has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I said that I never say credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What percentage of the local is out of work?
> 
> How do that relate to the percentage of non-union electrician out of work?
> 
> Are you getting these numbers from credible sources or from rumors?


 
*LU:* 995 *Jurisdiction:* LA *Updated:* 9/24/2010
*Classification:* Inside Journeyman Wireman *Referal Hrs:* 8:00am
*Scale:* 22.68 *Assessments:* 4%
*Pension I:* 13.45% *Pension II:* *Annuity:* 
*Vacation:* *Health & Welfare:* $3.95
*Book I Status:* Slow *Book I Count:* 110
*Book II Status:* Not At All *Book II Count:* 60
*Details: *Work is very slow. Not looking at any thing getting to book 2
*Local Contact Info:* 
*City/State:* Baton Rouge, LA *Address:* 8181 Tom Drive
*Phone:* (225) 927-6462 *Email:* [email protected] *Website:* NA
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*

*LU:* 995 *Jurisdiction:* LA *Updated:* 9/24/2010
*Classification:* Outside Journeyman Lineman *Referal Hrs:* 8:00 a.m.
*Scale:* 24.64 *Assessments:* 4%
*Pension I:* 10% *Pension II:* *Annuity:* 0
*Vacation:* 0 *Health & Welfare:* 4.75
*Book I Status:* Slow *Book I Count:* NA
*Book II Status:* Slow *Book II Count:* NA
*Details: *Work has been slow.
*Local Contact Info:* 
*City/State:* Baton Rouge, LA *Address:* 8181 Tom Drive
*Phone:* (225) 927-6462 *Email:* [email protected] *Website:* NA



*LU:* 130 *Jurisdiction:* LA *Updated:* 10/4/2010
*Classification:* Inside Journeyman Wireman *Referal Hrs:* 7:00 A.M. - 8:00 A.M.
*Scale:* 25.75 *Assessments:* 4
*Pension I:* 1.44 *Pension II:* *Annuity:* 2.25
*Vacation:* n/a *Health & Welfare:* 4.21
*Book I Status:* Slow *Book I Count:* NA
*Book II Status:* Slow *Book II Count:* NA
*Details: * Work situation is extremely slow. Please call our Job line at 504-831-0167. For jobs available, call after 4:00pm. Job line is open until 7:00am the following day. You must have a TWIC card. Please call 1-866-347-8942 for more information on how to purchase the card.
*Local Contact Info:* 
*City/State:* Metairie, LA *Address:* 3200 Ridgelake Drive , Suite 300
*Phone:* (504) 831-1372 *Email:* [email protected] *Website:* http://www.ibewlu130.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

*LU:* 576 *Jurisdiction:* LA *Updated:* 10/6/2010
*Classification:* Inside Journeyman Wireman *Referal Hrs:* 8:30 AM ALL DAY
*Scale:* 22.15 *Assessments:* 5%
*Pension I:* $1.70 *Pension II:* *Annuity:* $0.00
*Vacation:* $0.00 *Health & Welfare:* $3.85
*Book I Status:* Slow *Book I Count:* 25
*Book II Status:* Not At All *Book II Count:* 80
*Details: * Brothers and sisters, The work outlook has slowed down. In effert to offset gas prices you can be placed on the out of work list by having a copy of your current dues recpt and phone # faxed from your home local. fax#(318-443-5874). email: [email protected] Resign will be between the 1st and 7th day of each month. Resign may be accomplished (with a copy of paid up dues receipt) either by Fax # 318-443-5874, E-mail: [email protected], in person, or letter to L.U. 576 I.B.E.W., 6703 Masonic Dr., Alexandria, LA. 71301 There are appr. 25 on book one. At this time we have no calls. Thank you. JOB LINE 1-318-767-0757
*Local Contact Info:* 
*City/State:* Alexandria, LA *Address:* 6703 Masonic Drive
*Phone:* (318) 443-5811 *Email:* [email protected] *Website:* NA
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

walkerj said:


> *LU:* 995 *Jurisdiction:* LA *Updated:* 9/24/2010
> *Classification:* Inside Journeyman Wireman *Referal Hrs:* 8:00am
> *Scale:* 22.68 *Assessments:* 4%
> *Pension I:* 13.45% *Pension II:* *Annuity:*
> ...


Again, this isn't showing unemployment rate.

Sure, it's slow to find new work and 110 guys are out of work, but how many guys are in the local?

If you are a good worker and the contractor wants to keep you, who is to say that you wouldn't be one of the many, many, many men who are out working the whole year? miller_elex would call you a "suck pump" for it, but in the end you are just working hard to keep your job, the same thing you have to do when you are non-union.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> That graph has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
> 
> I said that I never say credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.


 
If you say that graph has nothing to do with what you said, it's because you choose to ignore it. It shows a DIRECT correlation between states with lower than average unionization rates and lower than average unemployment rates. Proof the union is doing more harm than good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If you say that graph has nothing to do with what you said, it's because you choose to ignore it. It shows a DIRECT correlation between states with lower than average unionization rates and lower than average unemployment rates. Proof the union is doing more harm than good.


Apparently you are just not understand the discussion. You can go argue whether the union is doing more harm than good with someone else, because I probably would agree with your side.

However, what I said (and you later called "one of he silliest statements ever") is that I never saw credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.

So please, show me this evidence if it's so freely available. It might be true that there is more unemployment in union electrical work than non-union electrical work, but I have never seen anything saying that, just assumptions.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> There is so much animosity between union and non; If the non union operators out there will not post, I would just like the non union wage earners to let us know why they think that their lot is the best.


I think neither is better, we are the same.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Apparently you are just not understand the discussion. You can go argue whether the union is doing more harm than good with someone else, because I probably would agree with your side.
> 
> However, what I said (and you later called "one of he silliest statements ever") is that I never saw credible evidence that says union electrical unemployment is any higher than non-union.
> 
> So please, show me this evidence if it's so freely available. It might be true that there is more unemployment in union electrical work than non-union electrical work, but I have never seen anything saying that, just assumptions.


 

I understood the question. I'm trying to find such a comparison, and cannot.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I understood the question. I'm trying to find such a comparison, and cannot.


A Hah! So it wasn't the silliest statement ever! 

In the end, I don't think there is much of a difference in unemployment rates between union and non-union electrical work.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

50,000 Watt,Clear Channel ,WRVTR.....All Riveter,All the Time....


Riveter,surely there must be a few people in Kentucky to engage in the non-stop talking, brainstorming, chatting, B.S.'ing-just-to-hear-yourself-talk, that you seem to need.How much would we all have to pony -up to buy your silence for a week or two? A woman has nothing on you when it comes to running at the mouth.


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

First, I'll be honest and tell you that I didn't read EVERY post. Just wanted to get my two cents in. I think we are all electricians and whatever works for you is great! I am non-union myself. When I graduated from HS in Northern Virginia, I had 3 years of Construction Electricity under my belt. I moved to Richmond to live with my sister who was in college there. I intended to go through the union apprenticeship since everybody said the education was so good. I get down to Richmond and looked-up the IBEW in the phone book, (1983- no Internet yet!) found the hall on my map and went to apply. It was Local 666! Bad sign! Anyway, I walk in to apply for the program and could not believe what happened. The old lady behind the desk started screaming at me! (No ****!) "WE ONLY ACCEPT APPLICATIONS ON THURSDAYS...WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?" After about 5 minutes of being berated by this nasty old bitch, I decided that the union was not for me! Started working for a non-union company a couple of days later.

Later in my career, I was wiring some stores in a new mall in Westminster, MD. A couple of suits from the IBEW in Baltimore were going store-to-store stirring up **** with the non-union electricians, scaring a lot of them. When they got to me, they asked who the foreman was. I told them that I was. Then they started telling me that I'll need to join the union and a bunch of other crap. Rather than being intimidated, I was getting pretty pissed-off. I asked them why. They told me that my company was taking advantage of me. I told them that I was satisfied with what I was making and, if I wasn't, I'm a big boy and can articulate that to my boss myself, I don't need them to speak for me!

Those were my only 2 experiences with the IBEW, both VERY negative! I really don't have a problem with people belonging to unions, although I think that they are not necessary as they once were. I'm pretty convinced that the UAW singlehandedly destroyed Detroit with unrealistic demands that ate into the profits of the big 3 US auto makers!

Anyway, If being in the IBEW works for you, I'm all for it. I don't like to be under someone else's control. (except for my wife:laughing


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> A Hah! So it wasn't the silliest statement ever!
> 
> In the end, I don't think there is much of a difference in unemployment rates between union and non-union electrical work.


 


I still think it's silly:laughing: I just can't prove it. No one's ever collected, compared and published such numbers. If they had, I feel the union unemployment rate would be higher. (just a guess)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I still think it's silly:laughing: I just can't prove it. No one's ever collected, compared and published such numbers. If they had, I feel the union unemployment rate would be higher. (just a guess)


So me saying that I've never seen something, the very same thing that you later said you couldn't find either is the silliest thing you've ever heard. Yet you making guesses is not? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So me saying that I've never seen something, the very same thing that you later said you couldn't find either is the silliest thing you've ever heard. Yet you making guesses is not?


 


very silly guesses at that:laughing:
I actually found an article that contradicted my point:whistling2:

of course I'm not posting that one:laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> very silly guesses at that:laughing:
> I actually found an article that contradicted my point:whistling2:
> 
> of course I'm not posting that one:laughing:


I'll take that as an apology :whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I'll take that as an apology :whistling2:


 

you have a vivid imagination


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> you have a vivid imagination


Well, you know that you were wrong so if you are not apologizing then what does that make you?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Well, you know that you were wrong so if you are not apologizing then what does that make you?


 


I'm sorry for ever doubting you:whistling2:


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

Thanks split bolt, but these guys would rather bicker back and forth than have an intelligent conversation ON TOPIC with the OP.




Split Bolt said:


> First, I'll be honest and tell you that I didn't read EVERY post. Just wanted to get my two cents in. I think we are all electricians and whatever works for you is great! I am non-union myself. When I graduated from HS in Northern Virginia, I had 3 years of Construction Electricity under my belt. I moved to Richmond to live with my sister who was in college there. I intended to go through the union apprenticeship since everybody said the education was so good. I get down to Richmond and looked-up the IBEW in the phone book, (1983- no Internet yet!) found the hall on my map and went to apply. It was Local 666! Bad sign! Anyway, I walk in to apply for the program and could not believe what happened. The old lady behind the desk started screaming at me! (No ****!) "WE ONLY ACCEPT APPLICATIONS ON THURSDAYS...WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?" After about 5 minutes of being berated by this nasty old bitch, I decided that the union was not for me! Started working for a non-union company a couple of days later.
> 
> Later in my career, I was wiring some stores in a new mall in Westminster, MD. A couple of suits from the IBEW in Baltimore were going store-to-store stirring up **** with the non-union electricians, scaring a lot of them. When they got to me, they asked who the foreman was. I told them that I was. Then they started telling me that I'll need to join the union and a bunch of other crap. Rather than being intimidated, I was getting pretty pissed-off. I asked them why. They told me that my company was taking advantage of me. I told them that I was satisfied with what I was making and, if I wasn't, I'm a big boy and can articulate that to my boss myself, I don't need them to speak for me!
> 
> ...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

JTMEYER said:


> Thanks split bolt, but these guys would rather bicker back and forth than have an intelligent conversation ON TOPIC with the OP.


 


As Brian would say, Blow me


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> As Brian would say, Blow me


 
Blow me right back pal. :thumbsup: And don't think since I put a smilie I don't mean that right from the heart.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I heard somebody's doling out blow jobs in here,

Send two my way! :laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Greed destroyed Detroit. Ford didn't need any tarp and they are UAW. It also didn't have to do with any of the over paid execs flying around in jumbo jets gallivanting around the globe. Funny how when times are good they want them guys to work around the clock so they can post record profits. Then all of sudden times get tough and they can't afford them. It's not unheard of for them guys to post multi billion dollar quarters. Then they move the plants to mexico to save on labor costs and make more cash and yet I haven't seen the price of a vehicle go down.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Greed destroyed Detroit. Ford didn't need any tarp and they are UAW. It also didn't have to do with any of the over paid execs flying around in jumbo jets gallivanting around the globe. Funny how when times are good they want them guys to work around the clock so they can post record profits. Then all of sudden times get tough and they can't afford them. It's not unheard of for them guys to post multi billion dollar quarters. Then they move the plants to mexico to save on labor costs and make more cash and yet I haven't seen the price of a vehicle go down.


There is nothing in that post that makes a bit of sense.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Greed destroyed Detroit. Ford didn't need any tarp and they are UAW. It also didn't have to do with any of the over paid execs flying around in jumbo jets gallivanting around the globe. Funny how when times are good they want them guys to work around the clock so they can post record profits. Then all of sudden times get tough and they can't afford them. It's not unheard of for them guys to post multi billion dollar quarters. Then they move the plants to mexico to save on labor costs and make more cash and yet I haven't seen the price of a vehicle go down.


Bob said what I was going to say in response to this



Bob Badger said:


> There is nothing in that post that makes a bit of sense.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Widestance_Politics said:


> Well , here is my story......I was non-union until I got an offer to make around 10 dollars more an hour......then I was Union until my contractor stopped paying insurance premiums and just promised us that they would catch up and make it all better in a couple months....the hall didn't want to lose the contractor so they basically let them get away with non-payment(which lapsed all of our covereage) until the job was finished and said contractor filed bankruptcy......I was then laid off and sitting on the books for a year, waiting my turn, and doing the "right thing".......
> 
> Eventually I got bored and said screw it.....I am now a non-union electrician once again, working steady, and no longer bored......
> 
> I work with some slugs on this crew that would make the ones in the Union proud..........


 

You sound like a guy that will do what it takes to survive. Nothing wrong with that.:thumbup:


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

We get all the work bid the same jobs the union does . Payday is a close match dollar for dollar schooling is tops with our company you must school yourself no one will teach all you need to know in this trade folks ! Not speaking for others in my state or trade .
Bonus program health insurance full 401 k dollar for dollar company matches this and vacation paid sick days paid holidays paid truck gas take home company given if you work hard you can make a living in this trade most union people are not they complain about everything and leave before 8 hours i know we have both union and non union expertise here i make more now non union ! And own my own way my dollar is mine dont need some one to tell me how to protect it !


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> It's wierd cause i've never heard brian say anything good about the union. Yet I believe he is a union contractor.


Several reasons.

I was working open shop and was approached in a very positive manner by the union, at the time I was making scale but benefits were not what the union had. I was fed up with my employer at the time and being selfish and wanting more for myself I joined the union. I was told that being open shop and joining the union I might have to put up with some crap from my fellow workers.

When I went in business, the typical customer that utilized testing companies were union, the larger jobs contractors, the local phone companies and food stores were all union and they would not hire an open shop company. I knew that open shop electrical contractors would hire us without a thought, I also knew union contractors COULD NOT hire me, if I was open shop.
The men I wanted/needed to hire were all union, there were no open shop testing companies at that time.
I truly liked the package the union offered to the men, I do not have to worry about pay or benefits, I know my men get a top pay package with decent benefits plus any additional pay and benefits i wish to offer. 

I also think the local in DC is very good, they work with the contractor, in the past it was not always this way. MOST of the issues I have had with the union is a pinheaded individual and group mentality. From my first day in the trade till recently I have seen this pinhead approach to promoting the union and this is BS. I do my best with open shop workers to explain the benefits of the union but I really could give a crap if they bad mouth the union between themselves, as it does not effect me or others directly, though I will offer a positive image of the union, to them. I have not seen open shop men hassle a worker LIKE I EXPERIENCED, when I was open shop.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Several reasons.
> 
> I was working open shop and was approached in a very positive manner by the union, at the time I was making scale but benefits were not what the union had. I was fed up with my employer at the time and being selfish and wanting more for myself I joined the union. I was told that being open shop and joining the union I might have to put up with some crap from my fellow workers.
> 
> ...


Well I always wondered what your story was and that is close to what I figured. But you have benefited from being union by being able to bid on those select jobs and from your posts you are doing well. Another benifit is that you can fluctuate your manpower accordingly. life is full of choices and there is no perfect system. I read your posts and respect your opinions. Good luck.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> There is nothing in that post that makes a bit of sense.


 I thought i wrote it in english but maybe not. I was responding to jtmeyer saying how he thinks the UAW ruined detroit. I don't think so. I know a few UAW workers and they are hard working joe's. When we was going thru the suv craze the local auto plant was working around the clock spitting those suv's out and the car company's made record profits. Didn't here them crying then. I think the car company's and a bunch other 's are using these bad economic times to bust the union. When the top three showed in Washington flying in jumbo jets by themselves it shows the poor management decisions the top brass make. My point is it could be managements fault the car company's are in trouble. possibly. maybe. Ford didn't need the tarp money and they obviously made some correct moves. Just my opinion, hope this clears it up.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Bob said what I was going to say in response to this


 Look at post above.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

Maybe you should go back and re-read who said what. If I recall correctly I have 3 posts in this thread. One about my negative experiences with the union, one to another member that actually answered the OP's question, and this one. I was not the one talking about Detroit.




Loose Neutral said:


> I thought i wrote it in english but maybe not. I was responding to jtmeyer saying how he thinks the UAW ruined detroit. I don't think so. I know a few UAW workers and they are hard working joe's. When we was going thru the suv craze the local auto plant was working around the clock spitting those suv's out and the car company's made record profits. Didn't here them crying then. I think the car company's and a bunch other 's are using these bad economic times to bust the union. When the top three showed in Washington flying in jumbo jets by themselves it shows the poor management decisions the top brass make. My point is it could be managements fault the car company's are in trouble. possibly. maybe. Ford didn't need the tarp money and they obviously made some correct moves. Just my opinion, hope this clears it up.


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## JTMEYER (May 2, 2009)

JTMEYER said:


> Thanks split bolt, but these guys would rather bicker back and forth than have an intelligent conversation ON TOPIC with the OP.


I see where the misunderstanding is now. The first 2/3's of Splitbolts post was on topic with the original intent of the thread, after that he makes some comments on Detroit. I was thanking him for posting his personal union experience, not for his commentary on the UAW.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

My fault I see now you were quoting split bolt. Either way my opinion still stands.


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