# Troubleshooting tricks and shortcuts....



## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

Im doing a lot more service lately, and I figure it's time to really invest some time, and money into learning new tricks and tools I can use for speeding things up. Here are some scenarios, you let me know how you would go about it, or have any advice....
I do a lot of exterior lighting, (parking lot poles, building lights, etc). I came across a breaker tripping, that controls a few poles on a large property. 277/480 panel, nice condition, tight connections, and it would reset, and hold fine with a perfectly normal 12a on a 20a breaker. It would hold for hours, sometimes days, and then I would get a call it had tripped again. I checked the contractor, time clock, all the connections in the panel.... Decided it's a defective breaker (just hoping) swapped it out, thought it be ok.... 
A couple weeks later, it tripped again. I know it could be a million different things, bad connections in a pole, ballast in a pole, water somewhere..... The problem is, the property is huge, no as built prints.
I have a crappy green lee locator, its more trouble then help sometimes.... I don't have any fancy wire tracers or meggers. Just a telephone toner..... I'm not even sure how to REALLY use a megger to it's fullest... 
Locating short circuits is something I need to have more tools to do.... What's your guys opinion on a must have....or must know, on improving this?
Also, any ways to easily test a breaker, without a fancy machine? other then continuity....

I guess a good wire racer, and a good megger, and a good book about using them would be great....

I guess I'm looking for the "I don't know how I lived without this tool" kind of help..... Stepping up my level of service electrician is my goal.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

First it is almost never a bad breaker. Second the best tool you have is between your ears learn to use it.On your lite issue did you walk the property looking for anything "new" like cuts in the concrete or a tree that was just planted did you stop and listen for noisy ballasts or lights that were not working right any missing hand covers? Always remember the simplest solution is usually the coorect one.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Hmmm... I'll bet one of the conductors got nicked on the pull. A little bit of water contacting the copper and the EGC conduit and there's your ground fault.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The brain really is the #1 tool. I do most of my T-shooting with a DMM or clamp meter, a low impedance tester of some sort, a megger and a toner. I usually don't break out the locator or tracer at first. 

With lot lights like that, I would have measured the voltage drop across the breaker and contactor, and the current draw, then I would move onto breaking the circuit up into sections and disconnecting the lights and meggering. 

Since it seems to be quite an intermittent fault the megger might not find the problem, in that case I'd put fuses in every so often and leave it to run. Come back later and take the section that blew its fuse and concentrate on that. A little work with the toner and a piece of paper to make a map and keep track of what you've done would probably be a good idea too.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

CNC said:


> no as built prints.


First things first MAKE ONE for your records. It doesn't have to be to scale or super accurate but man every little note I make stays in a folder for each job if not on my blackberry. 
You'll be able to make notes that other contractors don't have for future reference that will be invaluable. I agree with the previous posts as well.

But make records for the future- you don't know how many times my little paper pad and pen have saved time and made it easier for troubleshooting on the way to the job if something ever happens again to the items that I have dealt with in the past. It also saves time by a quick review when I start- I have cut my time in half by not having to go over previously done steps. its great for recording readings as well.
:thumbsup:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Fuses in each pole :whistling2:


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

How about a set of contactors in a cabinet (like definate purpose), that when the installers punched in the conduits, they forgot to cover with cardboard, and there are little metal shavings between the phases. Makes a pretty large bang. Oh, and gets worse as time goes on.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

crazyboy said:


> Fuses in each pole :whistling2:


Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!!:thumbup:

One of the best things to do for parking lot or other lighting...the cost of those holders and fuses is minuscule compared to the cost of all the time wasted trying to isolate a faulted pole/ballast.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Intermittent faults are one of the difficult things we have to deal with. Whenever possible, I do the "call me when it's not working" thing because it's much harder to fix when it aint broken.

As far as fuses at each pole, I have mixed feelings on this. It will help isolate the faulted pole and might be used to disconnect a single pole while working on it but it also puts more crap in the small hand hole and more things to maintain.


My guess would be a ballast/component that's not completely shorted ....yet


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Intermittent faults are one of the difficult things we have to deal with. Whenever possible, I do the "call me when it's not working" thing because it's much harder to fix when it aint broken.
> 
> As far as fuses at each pole, I have mixed feelings on this. It will help isolate the faulted pole and might be used to disconnect a single pole while working on it but it also puts more crap in the small hand hole and more things to maintain.
> 
> ...


 don't leave them in take them home after you find the issue and use them on the next one.:thumbsup:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The locators take some practice to get good with. I have a Dynatel 2273 with all the bells and whistles and have better luck on my hands and knees with my ideal tracer. From what I read, its all about the frequencies you use and how you ground the transmitter and the conductor or pipe you are trying to find. I sent mine out for calibration and haven't seen it for weeks. When it gets back I'll get some practice with some of the things I've read. Any of the higher end stuff, tdr and meggers take some getting used to. The more you use them the better you get. I like the fuse idea, never thought of that. 

What types of fuse holders are people using?


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> The locators take some practice to get good with. I have a Dynatel 2273 with all the bells and whistles and have better luck on my hands and knees with my ideal tracer. From what I read, its all about the frequencies you use and how you ground the transmitter and the conductor or pipe you are trying to find. I sent mine out for calibration and haven't seen it for weeks. When it gets back I'll get some practice with some of the things I've read. Any of the higher end stuff, tdr and meggers take some getting used to. The more you use them the better you get. I like the fuse idea, never thought of that.
> 
> What types of fuse holders are people using?


Ferraz, Cooper, Littlefuse all make weatherproof inline fuse holders for the midget fuses. Rather than having an entire circuit worth of poles out you end up with one out, and you save a vast amount of time searching for the problem pole.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Sounds like a nicked conductor underground to me.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I had a gnarley PITA exterior troubleshooting exterior lighting on a warehouse a few months back. Intermittent breaking tripping, just like yours. Traced the ENTIRE circuit, meggered everything, still couldn't find it. Stuck fuses in each light, breaker still tripped.

Finally I moved some fuses to a junction box upstream where it split out a few directions. Over the night one of my fuses blew. Isolate that portion of the circuit, pulled the conductors out (only like 20' long) and found a big ol' nick in the hot conductor. The circuit had only been causing problems when it was rainy and windy. The wind flapped the sheet metal siding around enough to bang the conduit around and ground out the hot.

Didn't megger that part of the circuit


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Didn't megger that part of the circuit


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## CNC (Dec 20, 2008)

Great tips guys:
Fuses in every pole should be done, i rarely see it on a private owned lot, or shopping center, but public cities do it commonly... Just the initial expense I suppose?
We do use "site maps" (a google map, then we map the poles and fixtures bldg #s etc) they can be useful, and be very basic, or fancy, depending on the program you use, or format desired.
Im suspecting a nicked wire, or bad wirenut... This property has pUllboxes EVERYWHERE, and they pulled in and out of every pole with several circuits.... So every pole is stuffed full... Over 200 poles. It's an on-going nightmare. 


I have been reading through megger posts, and megger manuals.... Im going to get one ASAP.
Thanks for the tips


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Someone givith my infantile brain a picture link of these "fuses in each pole" ye speaketh of, please.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Don't you have access to Google?

Inline fuse holder










Obviously, you cut the wire to install. :jester:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=parking+lot+light+inline+fuse+holder


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

For temporary troubleshooting fuses at each pole, use a lamp socket and Edison base fuse.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

#12 seems way small for this application if there is any distance involved. Did you put an amp meter on the circuit?

I would agree is sounds like a nicked underground conductor. 

If all else fails, I'd look at total connected load and length of run, if you have some serious voltage drop the amperage might be higher than you think.


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## Lights-out (Apr 15, 2011)

I find troubleshooting a parking lot there is very little shortcuts you can take ..the megger is great when you need to test for a short underground but does not always work going up the pole. Why the wire could be skinned but not touching ground to get a short and in a pole there is plenty of room pull new wire up the pole and inspect for a burn there usually not pinhole sized but they can be. The breaker if no other poles are on that breaker it is possible with hid lighting at startup that I can blow the breaker. Reason I don't understand or care to explain they make an expensive breaker just for this problem. To count this as a problem it would blow at startup. You say it holds, but you don't know when it blows. Advise the customer to watch when they come on. Locating shouldn't need to be done unless your looking for a box and have already megged the wire short. Old school trick disconnect the the hot wire at its location right before the pole and disconnect the poles hot wire go back to the connection before the pole and tap the wires is there a spark or sound of spark then there is a short on the line. Those are things to start with..3rd thing to check is the socket ..and also make sure you have clearance from the reflector when closing the fixture up if it touches the ballast it can trip the breaker but it usaully will knock out the lamp. One more thing make sure all your taps are capped off ..I've seen these touch and trip the ballast a 100 times ..good luck.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Lights-out, welcome to the forum. 

Your post was a bear to read, please, next time put in some breaks like so: 



> I find troubleshooting a parking lot there is very little shortcuts you can take. The megger is great when you need to test for a short underground but does not always work going up the pole.
> 
> Why the wire could be skinned but not touching ground to get a short and in a pole there is plenty of room pull new wire up the pole and inspect for a burn there usually not pinhole sized but they can be.
> 
> ...


And I would not advise the old school trick at all, especially on 480/277.


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## Lights-out (Apr 15, 2011)

Okay not a problem mxslick. I agree it was a bear to read I am posting from my cell. I also agree the old school method should not be used. Furthermore , I do work with no less than 2 men on any voltage over 277v. It saves lives and time running back and forth especially on large parking lots switching the power on and off.. I use the fluke 1587 megohmeter it works great. They do have some tricks to them. Ive found they are not as reliable in PVC. They are expensive. If price is an issue I have found good prices on eBay and Craigslist. I purchased the. Amprobe amb4d on eBay for $ 50. It is an older model but works great. This is the largest spacing my phone allowed mxslick hope this will do and thanks for moderating the page my respect to you.


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## Lights-out (Apr 15, 2011)

Well I applied the spacing and it all bunched together when I sent the message I will not post until I resolve this.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

No problem sir and my apologies if I sounded rude. I did not know you were posting from your phone...:thumbsup: (As a side note that is why I don't like using my phone for texts it sucks at spacing, punctuation and formatting.)

Curious: Why would the Fluke not work well with PVC?



> Well I applied the spacing and it all bunched together when I sent the message I will not post until I resolve this.


Don't let that stop you from posting, please.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Lights-out said:


> Well I applied the spacing and it all bunched together when I sent the message I will not post until I resolve this.


Welcome to the club. 
You can ramble on your words together. It's ok. 

Ienjoydoingit.


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## Lights-out (Apr 15, 2011)

I've had the megger set at 1000v megged the line and come back 2.2 ohms. Then double check all my procedures and again 2.2 ohms and clear.. It was frustrating at first until I realized it only happened in PVC only.Possibly because of it insulating the short. To prove my theory to myself I ran water in the pipe and tested the line again and I got 0.0 as a result. I've also noticed if ballasts are not case grounded and the ballast can short the coils clear of the casing the megger will read clear. I also use the dynatell for locating and when in PVC it is less accurate especially in depth readings. Clearly metal pipe is a better conductor and PVC has a higher resistance to ground. I have had to put my fish tape in PVC for a more accurate reading when locating but not everytime. If anyone else has seen this I'd greatly appreciate any feedback. I am only speaking from my experience. I wondered if anyone else had any issues like this before.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Obviously with PVC you could totally miss a nick unless there is a nick in another conductor or there is a bare copper EGC, and a bunch of other conditions happen like the conduit filling with water. 

That's usually why I lots of times end up breaking the poles into groups and putting a fuse on each group and let it sit and rain and go through a wind storm and well you get the idea.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Lights-out said:


> *Okay not a problem* mxslick. I agree it was a bear to read I am posting from my cell. I also agree the old school method should not be used. Furthermore , I do work with no less than 2 men on any voltage over 277v. It saves lives and time running back and forth especially on large parking lots switching the power on and off.. I use the fluke 1587 megohmeter it works great. They do have some tricks to them. Ive found they are not as reliable in PVC. They are expensive. If price is an issue I have found good prices on eBay and Craigslist. I purchased the. Amprobe amb4d on eBay for $ 50. It is an older model but works great. This is the largest spacing my phone allowed mxslick hope this will do and thanks for moderating the page my respect to you.


Heh heh ^

I couldn't read either of them :laughing:

Isn't there a space bar on the phone???


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Someone givith my infantile brain a picture link of these "fuses in each pole" ye speaketh of, please.





220/221 said:


> Don't you have access to Google?
> 
> Inline fuse holder
> 
> ...


Classic example of me overthinking something, I expected some sort of supply house ripoff part.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Those rubber covered lighting pigtails with an edison base fuse sound like a great idea too.


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