# Joining a union in NJ a good idea in this economy?



## Random195 (Apr 20, 2009)

Hey!
I'm 22 years old, graduated from an electricians program last august and have been working as a helper for non-union contractors since. I work residential for 6 months, got laid off due to lack of work and am now working for another contractor who specializes in the field wiring of conveyor systems (with very steady work incoming). Now i already applied for local 400 in NJ, took the test, passed, and just got a letter in telling me my interview is at the end of the month. Now what worries me is what seems like the lack of union work in my area. Just the other day i saw a picket line from local 400. So what i want to know is, is it wise to join a union now with what seems to be a major lack of work? Some say that I'm better off staying where the work is for now and try for the union again when the economy picks back up. Others say that apprentices tend to have a good amount of work and don't have to worry as much. I figured here would be the best place to find some answers.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The IBEW operates a first-class temporary service for electrical contractors. You'll get a good education.


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## mizterjimbo (Apr 19, 2009)

its all a waiting game, the way things are going,seems like nothing is a good idea right now, i know in are local the books are full of JW out of work. but if you join as a new apr. you might get picked up, employers are really trying to save money and getting cheaper labor.


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

Apprentices are a bargain they generally work till they top out,Then everything youve heard here comes into play nepotism,clicks,drinkin buddies, in time old friendships etc and last but not least amount of working going on. You cant run a union without work.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. I'd go where the work is.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Join. As an apprentice you'll enjoy full employment through the entire program and gain valuable education, a degree, and experience.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Join. As an apprentice you'll enjoy full employment through the entire program and gain valuable education, a degree, and experience.


the apprentices in the local here have to travel sometimes to find work. If you do join you will get a great education and plenty of indoctrination.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

At this point in time if you are employed stay put.
You might try to find out if there is work for existing apprentices.
In the long run if you can get in the union you will be better off, BUT keep an open mind, do not become a open shop hater, understand a good job is a fair working relationship between management and workers.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> understand a good job is a fair working relationship between management and workers.


 
This is a great point reather you work union or nonunion.:thumbsup:


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## Random195 (Apr 20, 2009)

thank you everyone for the advice


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> At this point in time if you are employed stay put.
> You might try to find out if there is work for existing apprentices.


They wouldn't open the program if there wasn't.



> In the long run if you can get in the union you will be better off, BUT keep an open mind, do not become a open shop hater, understand a good job is a fair working relationship between management and workers.


Absolutely, just experience exactly what fair is, before you let someone else dictate what it is for you. :thumbsup:


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Generally speaking, 1st year apprentices get a great deal of Union theology. They become so enthused about unionism that they talk of inking an IBEW bug on their butt. Just remember this, there are many who only join a union for the bennies, and could take it or leave it otherwise.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Minuteman said:


> the apprentices in the local here have to travel sometimes to find work. If you do join you will get a great education and plenty of indoctrination.


That's odd because apprentices have no portability.

Random195, joining the union is a great idea.

If you don't like it, just quit. What's the worst that could happen, you get a good, solid apprenticeship?

Just use your head, don't take everything you hear as law.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

1900 said:


> Just use your head, don't take everything you hear as law.


That's great advice, but....




1900 said:


> If you don't like it, just quit. What's the worst that could happen, you get a good, solid apprenticeship?


...be advised....many locals require the apprentices to sign a document that basically states that if you quit the local - YOU must pay for schooling out of your own pocket.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ...be advised....many locals require the apprentices to sign a document that basically states that if you quit the local - YOU must pay for schooling out of your own pocket.


Beat me to it...


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Celtic said:


> That's great advice, but....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've heard about that, but never saw the document myself nor talked to anyone from any neighboring local who signed it.

I'll be paying 2.5% of my gross for school for the next 45 years, jeeze!


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

1900 said:


> I've heard about that, but never saw the document myself nor talked to anyone from any neighboring local who signed it.


Ask an agent...preferably head of the JATC for the straight talk ~ I rarely believe what I read on a forum :whistling2:



1900 said:


> I'll be paying 2.5% of my gross for school for the next 45 years, jeeze!


How do you figure?
Unless you are the EC and plan on retiring in 45 years....:blink:


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Ask an agent...preferably head of the JATC for the straight talk ~ I rarely believe what I read on a forum :whistling2:


 I'm 100% sure I didn't sign it, I read everything I sign.




> How do you figure?
> Unless you are the EC and plan on retiring in 45 years....:blink:


We pay 2.5% and I won't be retiring for quite a while.


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## pzpoy (Jun 2, 2008)

1900 said:


> I've heard about that, but never saw the document myself nor talked to anyone from any neighboring local who signed it.


I had to sign it(local 26). If an apprentice quits/fails out they have to pay for their books and part of the schooling, and at the end of the apprenticeship we have to stay union for 2 years or we will have to pay for it.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

1900 said:


> I'm 100% sure I didn't sign it, I read everything I sign.


This is fairly recent development...within the past 4 - 8 years if I had to guess....years ago, it was not a requirement.
Another factor - which particular local? [Rhetorical -you do not have to answer]]
All locals [even within NJ] do not follow the same play book.





1900 said:


> We pay 2.5% and I won't be retiring for quite a while.


There is a distinct difference between "DEDUCTIONS" and "CONTRIBUTIONS"
Deductions include:
- personal fund
- assessments
- etc
These are actual deductions from your paycheck, paid by you.

Contributions include:
- Annuity
- JATF
- Pension
- Welfare
- Temporary Disability Trust Fund
- NEBF
- NNJEIF
- etc
These are paid by the employer..some on your behalf [TDTF, Annuity, Pension, etc] to your accounts....some directly to the local [NNJEIF, JATF, etc].
These monies DO NOT come out of your paycheck.


I don't know where you got the idea that you personally are paying the 2.5% JATF amount - but you are not paying it ~ your employer is.
Don't believe me?
Check your pay stub...all monies taken from your pay must be accounted for....ie, SUI,Fed Tax, State Tax, Personal Fund, etc...but no JATF.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

pzpoy said:


> I had to sign it(local 26). If an apprentice quits/fails out they have to pay for their books and part of the schooling, and at the end of the apprenticeship we have to stay union for 2 years or we will have to pay for it.


Yes, I believe they call it the Indenture Agreement. I was given one for the apprenticeship I applied to, and if you quit the apprenticship before the term of indenture was up, you had to pay back the local $10,000 for your training. 

PS. I trashed the indenture agreement and went non-union.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Celtic said:


> This is fairly recent development...within the past 4 - 8 years if I had to guess....years ago, it was not a requirement.
> Another factor - which particular local? [Rhetorical -you do not have to answer]]
> All locals [even within NJ] do not follow the same play book.
> 
> ...


I understand the difference between the package and envelope too well. I still see it as MY money. I earn $70 (approx) per hour, that money is divided up between many different things. Saying that the contractor pays for one of the contributions is like saying that the contractor is paying my mortgage. That's just my take on it, some people see it differently.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, I believe they call it the Indenture Agreement. I was given one for the apprenticeship I applied to, and if you quit the apprenticship before the term of indenture was up, you had to pay back the local $10,000 for your training.
> 
> PS. I trashed the indenture agreement and went non-union.


You went non-union because of the agreement, or other reasons?

It seems like you're saying it was the agreement itself. $10K is pretty cheap for 4-5 years of classroom training along with on the job training that you get paid pretty well for.

Say what you want about the union, but their apprenticeship is pretty damn good. Just stay away from the slugs so they don't rub off on you.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

1900 said:


> You went non-union because of the agreement, or other reasons?


I went non-union because I'm the best electrician who ever lived and I don't need a union to represent me.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I went non-union because I'm the best electrician who ever lived and I don't need a union to represent me.


Nope, that can't be true because I am the best electrician who ever lived. And I pay an organization to take care of my paperwork and other stuff that I can't be bothered with because I am so busy being so good at electrical stuff :thumbup::thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

1900 said:


> Nope, that can't be true because I am the best electrician who ever lived. And I pay an organization to take care of my paperwork and other stuff that I can't be bothered with because I am so busy being so good at electrical stuff :thumbup::thumbsup:


What I didn't mention is I'm the best hack electrician who ever lived, so that means you've an even better hack that I am. I'm impressed.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What I didn't mention is I'm the best hack electrician who ever lived, so that means you've an even better hack that I am. I'm impressed.


I set the bar...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

1900 said:


> That's just my take on it, some people see it differently.


I see your argument...and I am guilty of tossing it in _some_ apprentice's faces :whistling2: ...but IMHO, it's not my money as I am not taxed on it. 
I certainly don't "pay" it when I'm on the books/out of work from my SUI check.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I see your argument...and I am guilty of tossing it in _some_ apprentice's faces :whistling2: ...but IMHO, it's not my money as I am not taxed on it.
> I certainly don't "pay" it when I'm on the books/out of work from my SUI check.


That's true about it not being taxed, but I still see it as my compensation for work. If that money wasn't going to where it is currently going, I would want every cent of it in my check so I could dole out the money to healthcare, retirement, and school costs, etc.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

1900 said:


> I understand the difference between the package and envelope too well. I still see it as MY money. I earn $70 (approx) per hour, that money is divided up between many different things. Saying that the contractor pays for one of the contributions is like saying that the contractor is paying my mortgage. That's just my take on it, some people see it differently.


And some people want the world. Go for it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

1900 said:


> That's true about it not being taxed, but I still see it as my compensation for work. If that money wasn't going to where it is currently going, I would want every cent of it in my check so I could dole out the money to healthcare, retirement, and school costs, etc.


You have to spend money to make money.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, I believe they call it the Indenture Agreement. I was given one for the apprenticeship I applied to, and if you quit the apprenticship before the term of indenture was up, you had to pay back the local $10,000 for your training....


 Yes that it, and think its 5 years or $20K here. The justification for it is, if we as in the Union and the Contractors (yes we pay too) pay to educate and train someone for a 5 year apprenticeship, that we should get some of the benefits for that training for at least a 5 year period.

The rub comes when the hall uses the program to indoctrinate people into the union culture in lieu of just educating them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> What I didn't mention is I'm the best hack electrician who ever lived, so that means you've an even better hack that I am. I'm impressed.


 


> I set the bar...


You two are missing the mark TOTALLY.


There is ME *number one*, then you might be number 2 and 3, MAYBE.


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

Random195 said:


> Hey!
> I'm 22 years old, graduated from an electricians program last august and have been working as a helper for non-union contractors since. I work residential for 6 months, got laid off due to lack of work and am now working for another contractor who specializes in the field wiring of conveyor systems (with very steady work incoming). Now i already applied for local 400 in NJ, took the test, passed, and just got a letter in telling me my interview is at the end of the month. Now what worries me is what seems like the lack of union work in my area. Just the other day i saw a picket line from local 400. So what i want to know is, is it wise to join a union now with what seems to be a major lack of work? Some say that I'm better off staying where the work is for now and try for the union again when the economy picks back up. Others say that apprentices tend to have a good amount of work and don't have to worry as much. I figured here would be the best place to find some answers.


Join if you get accepted. The opportunity may never come back to you. The worst case scenerio is you get a fully accredited education in electricity plus you can use your credits to further your education. I had one apprentice become an Electrical Engineer at Drexel University and several others become teachers/instructors at various trade schools.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You have to spend money to make money.





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And some people want the world. Go for it.


 I'm not following either one of your posts...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

1900 said:


> I'm not following either one of your posts...


"And some people want the world, go for it..." Means some people would rather have the money that goes towards the H&W package, forgetting the reason that money is going there is because the contractors and the union negotiated for the benifit or the service that it provides, not the money. 

It was was the response to:


> Originally Posted by *1900*
> _I understand the difference between the package and envelope too well. I still see it as MY money. I earn $70 (approx) per hour, that money is divided up between many different things. Saying that the contractor pays for one of the contributions is like saying that the contractor is paying my mortgage. That's just my take on it, some people see it differently._


_"You have to spend money to make money." means those fringes support the programs and the continuing education and without them, (and the resulting highly educated and certificate-holding and additional skills-posessing members) it would be difficult to justify the dollar amount you actually do get to keep. _


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> "And some people want the world, go for it..." Means some people would rather have the money that goes towards the H&W package, forgetting the reason that money is going there is because the contractors and the union negotiated for the benifit or the service that it provides, not the money.


 And if they didn't, I would still need that money to pay for it (healthcare, pension, training, etc.) myself. It works out to be the same thing either way, so I don't understand your point... 




> _"You have to spend money to make money." means those fringes support the programs and the continuing education and without them, (and the resulting highly educated and certificate-holding and additional skills-posessing members) it would be difficult to justify the dollar amount you actually do get to keep. _


 I think you're exaggerating it quite a bit. My local takes 2.5% for training which comes out to under $2,500 per year. My sister local takes only 1% (which is a more average number), so now we're talking under $1,000 per year. All the rest of the money, such as the $25,000 I paid for health and welfare last year, or the $25,000 I put into retirement, doesn't have anything to do with the speech you just gave.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

1900 said:


> And if they didn't, I would still need that money to pay for it (healthcare, pension, training, etc.) myself. It works out to be the same thing either way, so I don't understand your point...


I doubt you could obtain, on your own, the amount of training and other benefits the H&W contributions provide. If it IS a wash, what's your beef?



> I think you're exaggerating it quite a bit. My local takes 2.5% for training which comes out to under $2,500 per year. My sister local takes only 1% (which is a more average number), so now we're talking under $1,000 per year.


If your "sister local" is local 3, that 1% is not an average, it's abnormally low due to some advantageous peciularities set up many decades ago.

And, not only is is ONLY 1%, we get $80.40 refunded 2x a year...



> All the rest of the money, such as the $25,000 I paid for health and welfare last year, or the $25,000 I put into retirement, doesn't have anything to do with the speech you just gave.


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## 1900 (May 4, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I doubt you could obtain, on your own, the amount of training and other benefits the H&W contributions provide. If it IS a wash, what's your beef?


 H&W contributions don't provide any training. 

I don't have any beef, I was having a discussion. YOU are the one who came into it with an axe to grind.






> If your "sister local" is local 3,


 My sister local is not 3.



> that 1% is not an average,


 Than what is the average around the country?


> And, not only is is ONLY 1%, we get $80.40 refunded 2x a year...


Once again, what is your point?

Why have you come here so profoundly trying to argue something?


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