# Service loop on loomex entering boxes?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If such a rule exists, it must be a Canadian thing.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

bushwickbill said:


> I am currently splicing a bunch of suits in a condo. I have a journeyman telling me that you need to leave a service loop when entering a wire into a box. Example, A 14/2 wire is entering a switch box on the wall, Do I need to leave a service loop in the wire, As opposed to just entering it straight in the box? I was told that you have to leave a service loop in the wire? I have been looking high and low and can't seem to find anything related to this in the CSA. Does anyone have some info on this topic? I just want to get this straight once and for all so I don't pass on the wrong info to someone else?
> Cheers:thumbsup:



Service loop = frut loop:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> If such a rule exists, it must be a Canadian thing.



They like their panels sideways:laughing::laughing:


----------



## bushwickbill (Jan 17, 2010)

C'mon guys. I am asking as I am in the process of training some green guys on how to splice. And I believe a small service loop can save your ass if the drywall guy using too long of a router bit when cutting around your boxes and hits a wire. It is nice to have a few extra inches to pull through in those cases to help when splicing. So I usually tell the guys to leave a little loop for that reason. But in the NEC there is no such rule at all. But I just don't like quoting code rules or being asked about code rules unless i know the answer 100%
What you guys just pull it piano tight right into the box with no play at all?


----------



## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

i hear for low voltage ****, thats changing. its making the cables like antennas now


not sure for you, but i know communications its not required, but it can be used. just went over this in class. i can look 2morrow in my notes if you want


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

bushwickbill said:


> C'mon guys. I am asking as I am in the process of training some green guys on how to splice. And I believe a small service loop can save your ass if the drywall guy using too long of a router bit when cutting around your boxes and hits a wire. It is nice to have a few extra inches to pull through in those cases to help when splicing. So I usually tell the guys to leave a little loop for that reason. But in the NEC there is no such rule at all. But I just don't like quoting code rules or being asked about code rules unless i know the answer 100%
> What you guys just pull it piano tight right into the box with no play at all?


 


yes.............


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

bushwickbill said:


> .........What you guys just pull it piano tight right into the box with no play at all?



Straight in all day long. But I'm a romex jockey, not a loomix one.


----------



## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Straight in all day long. But I'm a romex jockey, not a loomix one.


Same here, if you did that day in and day out that would add up to a lot of wasted wire, If the sheet rocker hits it its a change order.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BEAMEUP said:


> Same here, if you did that day in and day out that would add up to a lot of wasted wire, If the sheet rocker hits it its a change order.



The only time I'll put a loop in is when I'm wiring up a log home. If there's a remote chance the wall gets changed from a normal flat wall (such as drywall or wood) to a log veneer, having a loop saves me.

But that's just a special case in a specific type of house.


----------



## lordlondis (Oct 28, 2010)

I dont leave a loop but I dont go tight in. I usually leave a little slack, maybe an inch or two, just to keep the wire from being rubbed on the last staple.


----------



## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

I am suprised at how many people that wire for the "What If"


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Only time I leave slack is if it's a light that might be in the wrong spot. Bathroom vanity lights come to mind.


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

334.30(C) I always leave a courtesy loop 6" or so inside wall. One county we work in has a new inspector from Orlando and he says "NO". I cant find the code reference he used, but it was to the effect of romex had to be secured within 8" of conduit bodies.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

uber stein said:


> 334.30(C) I always leave a courtesy loop 6" or so inside wall. One county we work in has a new inspector from Orlando and he says "NO". I cant find the code reference he used, but it was to the effect of romex had to be secured within 8" of conduit bodies.


 

REally?? ALways?? REally??? 6" at every opening adds up. hundreds of openings in a house. How many houses have you wired this way? And was it your dime being wasted? That seems absolutely ludacris


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

Every house we wire we do like that!!! Company teaches us to wire it that way.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

uber stein said:


> Every house we wire we do like that!!! Company teaches us to wire it that way.



That's NUTS!



uber stein said:


> ...... but it was to the effect of romex had to be secured within 8" of conduit bodies.


Hmm. NM...... Conduit Body....... Those two really don't go together much in resi work.


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Hmm. NM...... Conduit Body....... Those two really don't go together much in resi work.


Yea, conduit body, ever hear of it? Some are plastic, some are metal, or maybe even aluminum. Carlon nail-ons are the ones in which im referring.. Single gang, double gang, 3-gang and they even have 4-gang boxes. 

On a serious note, where would it be found about the wire being secured within 8"? Tried to look it up.. under conduit bodies, didn't know what else to look it up under.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

uber stein said:


> .........On a serious note, where would it be found about the wire being secured within 8"? Tried to look it up.. under conduit bodies, didn't know what else to look it up under.



334.30 might help you out.










Oh, and you forgot bakelite.


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 334.30 might help you out
> 
> 
> Oh, and you forgot bakelite.


nope, thats within 12" code ref inspector told me was within 8" of box. I looked at the ref and he was right. It;s only when the box does not secure wire to the box. Like the single gangs have the tabs that pop out and the 2-gangs have the tab that just folds in. Loop legal for 2-gang but not the single.

Never heard of bakelite.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

uber stein said:


> nope, thats within 12" code ref inspector told me was within 8" of box. ..........
> 
> Never trust an inspector.
> 
> Never heard of bakelite.


You're kidding, right?


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

When the inspector came in doing a pre inspection, he told us about the courtesy loops. It cost an extra 1.5 days to undo all the loops and do it the way he wanted. The other 3 counties we work in don't mind the loops. 

The courtesy loops may be a waste of material but it saves time and $ for customer down the road.

Recep or switch burns up, sh!t rockers mess up on cutting out holes for boxes. The extra length of wire does help.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

uber stein said:


> 334.30(C) I always leave a courtesy loop 6" or so inside wall. One county we work in has a new inspector from Orlando and he says "NO". I cant find the code reference he used, but it was to the effect of romex had to be secured within 8" of conduit bodies.


Conduit bodies? That is not a box. I know, AHJ and all that but he really needs to learn his job. 

What I do when wiring houses, is have the wire come down the stud, and put the staple within 6" of the box. Then loop back up about 4" and then back down to the box in the far KO. this wire is supported within the requisite measurement but has the service loop. 

I have way too many sheetrockeRrrrs in the family that love to mangle wires to leave it to chance. I haven't been angry enough to get back at them.

However, the code that the inspector is trying to quote, is probably 314.17C Exc. But he is incorrectly reading it. It is referring to Non-Metallic *single gang* boxes and *IF *the cables are supported within 8" of the box then you are allowed to put *two cables in the same hole* without a cable clamp.


----------



## XCasper (Jan 30, 2009)

uber stein said:


> 334.30(C) I always leave a courtesy loop 6" or so inside wall. One county we work in has a new inspector from Orlando and he says "NO". I cant find the code reference he used, but it was to the effect of romex had to be secured within 8" of conduit bodies.


Never heard of a code requirement for this but I was trained this way and still train my guys to do it. Not only can sheet rockers screw up the wire but so can electricians. I've never had a minimum x" rule but say the NM is coming down from above I'll pull it tight in front of the box then strip it where it hits the bottom of the box before putting it in the top hole(s). This tends to give about a 4" "fire loop". (that's what the Master who taught me called it )


----------



## bushwickbill (Jan 17, 2010)

So it looks like I am not the only one who leaves a service loop on their 14/2, 14/3 ETC... 
It helps me make a splice a lot of times when the wire in the box is damaged or too short for some reason. And that little extra 4-6 inch service loop can be pulled in to the box to help make the impossible splice possible!!
And if the Job is time and material, Then that little extra wire for the service loop won't break 'Our' Price on the job.
Thanx for the replies guys. Anyone know where to find that code rule in the CEC?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

uber stein said:


> When the inspector came in doing a pre inspection, he told us about the courtesy loops. It cost an extra 1.5 days to undo all the loops and do it the way he wanted. The other 3 counties we work in don't mind the loops. .........


He 'told' you about the loops, so you just automatically wasted a day and half of labor?:blink:

If an inspector 'told' me about something, I'd keep right on going. You just fell for the oldest con in the book... _shirt-pocket rules_.:whistling2:


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I only leave loops in hi end kitchens and baths on the outlets if they need to move a few inches, other than that, tight and straight in.


----------



## kjs2419 (Aug 28, 2010)

We always push up 8" of slack into the roof cavity, staple within 12" of the device box and leave an 8" loop before entering the box. We build transportable buildings that have no roof access after they're complete, which is why we leave so much extra. We also get inspected by CSA and they don't like it but there's no rule in the CEC against it so he can't make us stop.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

As I said in post #23, 




JohnR said:


> *However, the code that the inspector is trying to quote, is probably 314.17C *Exc. But he is incorrectly reading it.


----------



## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

"Service Loop", more like "Hack Loop", That must look great when you have a four gang box that has ten cables coming into it, nice ugly knot of **** outside of the box, really professional looking. :blink: If you splice your wires correctly and fold them into the box neatly, not just take your hammer handle and jamb them in, you will rarely have an issue with the sheet rockers. I use the deep boxes to start with because it is a cleaner easier job at rough in and trimout, this also gives more space between the face of the box and the wires (less chance of damage) Take the time to talk to the rocker and explain the router bit doesn't need to be set 2" out, that 3/4'' is more then enough to do the job. Then let him know you WILL be back charging for dammaged wires at "X" dollars per hour, and you will be opening walls to re-run the cables (walls he will be fixing for free) That will get his attention. As far as cost, if you are dead set on putting a loop of wire out side of the box, on a 5,000 sq. ft. house it might take one roll of wire extra, big deal, if that breaks the bank you need to be doing something else for a living because you sure can't bid a job correctly.:laughing:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

acrwc10 said:


> "Service Loop", more like "Hack Loop", That must look great when you have a four gang box that has ten cables coming into it, nice ugly knot of **** outside of the box, really professional looking. :blink: If you splice your wires correctly and fold them into the box neatly, not just take your hammer handle and jamb them in, you will rarely have an issue with the sheet rockers. I use the deep boxes to start with because it is a cleaner easier job at rough in and trimout, this also gives more space between the face of the box and the wires (less chance of damage) Take the time to talk to the rocker and explain the router bit doesn't need to be set 2" out, that 3/4'' is more then enough to do the job. Then let him know you WILL be back charging for dammaged wires at "X" dollars per hour, and you will be opening walls to re-run the cables (walls he will be fixing for free) That will get his attention. As far as cost, if you are dead set on putting a loop of wire out side of the box, on a 5,000 sq. ft. house it might take one roll of wire extra, big deal, if that breaks the bank you need to be doing something else for a living because you sure can't bid a job correctly.:laughing:


 


I agree with most of this. But the last two sentences are BS. Nobody said anything about breaking the bank. If you do 100 houses per year at $75 bucks of wasted wire per house, that's not chump change


----------



## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

bushwickbill said:


> Thanx for the replies guys. Anyone know where to find that code rule in the CEC?


There is NO CEC requirement for this.....just another made up rule.


----------



## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I agree with most of this. But the last two sentences are BS. Nobody said anything about breaking the bank. If you do 100 houses per year at $75 bucks of wasted wire per house, that's not chump change


 
I said, on a 5,000 sq. ft. house you may use 1 roll of additional romex.
If you are wiring 100 houses a year, at 5,000 sq.ft. each, after accounting for weekends and holidays, you are completing a house every 2 days (rough and trim) 
If this is the case, you are the most successful business person here. With the volume of material you are using, and your employee's are stealing from you, you will never notice 100 rolls of NM.

By the way congratulations on your success. :laughing:


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's NUTS!
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. NM...... Conduit Body....... Those two really don't go together much in resi work.


We have to use them together all the time. Services, romex to an exterior conduit ran up to a light or plug, romex to a conduit up to a disconnect etc. Not alot but we still use them together quite a bit


----------



## kawimudslinger (Jan 29, 2010)

there's no such rule in the CEC. It's all employer/customer preferance. Some people do, some don't. i like to leave just a small amount incase the box needs to be adjusted etc.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

It's not a rule, just a standard. 

Even on a four gang switch box, each wire will have a courtesy loop. Looks alright if you do it properly. Must be a Canada thing!


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

jza said:


> It's not a rule, just a standard.
> 
> Even on a four gang switch box, each wire will have a courtesy loop. Looks alright if you do it properly. Must be a Canada thing!


 Not necessarily, I leave a 12" loop on my counter outlets in kitchens or on rare occasion when holes are drilled within 6" of boxes due to windows. Time and a place for everything.


----------



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

electrictim510 said:


> We have to use them together all the time. Services, *romex to an exterior conduit ran up to a light or plug, romex to a conduit up to a disconnect etc.* Not alot but we still use them together quite a bit


If I am reading this right, this sounds like a violation.


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> If I am reading this right, this sounds like a violation.


Really? What part of it is? Been doing it for years. Can you point out to me that section please. I have been incorrect on these things before but I don't think this is one of them (though I may be wrong).


----------



## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

electrictim510 said:


> Really? What part of it is? Been doing it for years. Can you point out to me that section please. I have been incorrect on these things before but I don't think this is one of them (though I may be wrong).


Romex can't be used in a wet environment.

334.12(B)(4). The 2005, which we are currently under in CA said "Where exposed to excessive moisture or dampness",
which is updated in the 2008 to "In wet or damp locations".


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Really?........ Been doing it for years. ...........


That's not an Exception that's in the Codebook. :no:


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

rexowner said:


> Romex can't be used in a wet environment.
> 
> 334.12(B)(4). The 2005, which we are currently under in CA said "Where exposed to excessive moisture or dampness",
> which is updated in the 2008 to "In wet or damp locations".


Hmm. Is that really wet location? I have to look that up. No inspector has ever called me on using romex sleeved through conduit before. I do it at least bi-weekly in the bay area when LBing into a service or similar application. Not saying you're wrong but maybe there is a interpretation issue of 'wet location'. I'll NEC it now. :thumbsup:


----------



## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

What is loomex?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> What is loomex?



Canada-ese for NM (or _Romex_).


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Now this is bugging me. I can't find anything solid in the NEC that says that the inside of a conduit mounted on the outside of a building (unless it is underground or something) is considered a wet location and needs type 'W' wiring. 

Can someone point this out for me please, I must be missing something.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> Now this is bugging me. I can't find anything solid in the NEC that says that the inside of a conduit mounted on the outside of a building (unless it is underground or something) is considered a wet location and needs type 'W' wiring.
> 
> Can someone point this out for me please, I must be missing something.


300.9 of the '08.


----------



## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

rexowner said:


> Romex can't be used in a wet environment.
> 
> 334.12(B)(4). The 2005, which we are currently under in CA said "Where exposed to excessive moisture or dampness",
> which is updated in the 2008 to "In wet or damp locations".


 
A new article 300.9 in the 2008 National Electrical Code defines the interior of raceways installed in outdoor locations above ground, as a wet location, requiring conductors and cables listed for use in wet locations.

I used to run romex outside in EMT, but no more.


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Al13Cu29 said:


> A new article 300.9 in the 2008 National Electrical Code defines the interior of raceways installed in outdoor locations above ground, as a wet location, requiring conductors and cables listed for use in wet locations.
> 
> I used to run romex outside in EMT, but no more.


Thanks for clarifying. Learned something new today. lol Just had an inspection the other day and the only location that the inspector was concerned about were the underground wires going to the pool equipment but had no concern for the wiring inside the conduit. Guess I am going to have to invest in a few rolls of THWN, I hardly ever have a use for it but I guess I do now. :blink:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> ..........Guess I am going to have to invest in a few rolls of THWN, I hardly ever have a use for it but I guess I do now. :blink:



Most THHN is dual-rated as THWN. :thumbsup:


----------



## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Most THHN is dual-rated as THWN. :thumbsup:


This is why I like forums like this. I've been an electrician since 96 but little stuff like this passes me by until now. l


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

acrwc10 said:


> I said, on a 5,000 sq. ft. house you may use 1 roll of additional romex.
> If you are wiring 100 houses a year, at 5,000 sq.ft. each, after accounting for weekends and holidays, you are completing a house every 2 days (rough and trim)
> If this is the case, you are the most successful business person here. With the volume of material you are using, and your employee's are stealing from you, you will never notice 100 rolls of NM.
> 
> By the way congratulations on your success. :laughing:


 
100 houses a year is not success. My uncle's company averagers 300-400 houses per year, for the past twenty years. He hasn't touched a piece of wire in ten years.


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

bushwickbill said:


> I am currently splicing a bunch of suits in a condo. I have a journeyman telling me that you need to leave a service loop when entering a wire into a box. Example, A 14/2 wire is entering a switch box on the wall, Do I need to leave a service loop in the wire, As opposed to just entering it straight in the box? I was told that you have to leave a service loop in the wire? I have been looking high and low and can't seem to find anything related to this in the CSA. Does anyone have some info on this topic? I just want to get this straight once and for all so I don't pass on the wrong info to someone else?
> Cheers:thumbsup:


I worked with a guy that did that, I thought and still think that it looks $crappy, what ever - i dont do it. I know no Canadian code so no help


----------



## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

electrictim510 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Learned something new today. lol Just had an inspection the other day and the only location that the inspector was concerned about were the underground wires going to the pool equipment but had no concern for the wiring inside the conduit. Guess I am going to have to invest in a few rolls of THWN, I hardly ever have a use for it but I guess I do now. :blink:


Sometimes, if the run is short, I would run UF, depends on the job.


----------

