# Okay I need some expert advice now *Calling all masters, calling all masters*



## humanvoltmeter (May 29, 2010)

You guys may have read my post a little earlier named, "Okay or not okay?"

Same inspector is now giving me the run around on grounding order from what he said last time. I really, honestly, think he is ****ing me now. I even pointed out what he wrote on his correction notice. Here's how the conversation went: 

"I grounded it according to your notice..."

"Well, you should know what I mean..."

"What?? Actually, I don't!! Because what you're telling me is nothing close to what you said and wrote on the notice 2 weeks ago!!"

"Well, now you know. Good luck."

As far as you guys know,* in what order* should I have my grounding system?

I *had *this:
1st ground rod to 2nd ground rod to gas main to water main to neut bar. On one continuous 6AWG bare copper conductor.

He made me do this:
_First 6AWG_
1st ground rod to 2nd ground rod to water main to neut bar

_Second 6AWG_
Water main to gas main to neut bar

He wants me to do this _now_:
_Second 6AWG
_Water main to Gas main. And that's it. Not even to Neut bar.

Wouldn't 2 conductors in the same path have _less_ conductivity than one continuous one??

Any ideas guys??


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think you got it right this time. That's how I'd do it anyway.


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## Geoff C (May 26, 2010)

Sucks but they are the AHJ. There is a local inspector here that makes you jump across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

humanvoltmeter said:


> You guys may have read my post a little earlier named, "Okay or not okay?"
> 
> Same inspector is now giving me the run around on grounding order from what he said last time. I really, honestly, think he is ****ing me now. I even pointed out what he wrote on his correction notice. Here's how the conversation went:
> 
> ...


I haven't done a residential in a long time so bear with me. The path you took it would have brought the path of a lightning strike out and then possibly back in via the gas line. If you want to bond the gas line you wouldn't make it part of the Grounding Electrode System, would you? I'm asking, not telling.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

humanvoltmeter said:


> ................
> _Second 6AWG_
> Water main to gas main to neut bar
> ...............


Why are you grounding to a gas meter?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Why are you grounding to a gas meter?


 
This part it kinda annoying moi the OP did not stated which side he ran the EGC on the gaz pipe before meter or after gaz meter ??

If it was before meter the Gaz compaine will have a fit with this.

{ I have chewed out on this one before with Natural gaz } but LP do it after second stage regulator.

Merci,Marc


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

Gas meter s/b grounded last. Jumper between in & out on water heater is called bonding.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

John Peters said:


> Gas meter s/b grounded last. Jumper between in & out on water heater is called bonding.


None of this is required by the NEC.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

You are just going to have to do it they way the inspector wants it.
We usually hit two ground rods with #6 and thats it. All of our water is PVC. Gas service is very scarce here due to FPLs "Their is no match for flamless electric" campaign back in the 60s.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I always run a #4 to water pipe from neutral bar and then another to rods etc. Avoids confusion.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

At this point I'd go above his head, at least make a phone call to the supervisor.
Here's all the numbers you'll ever need for sf inspectors:
http://www.sfdbi.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=79


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

For safety, the inspectors want the connection to the interior gas piping to be the last in the series. It's even better if there is a splice on the line somewhere at the various ground connections on the way to the gas Pipes. 
Their reasoning is: a splice would create a little bit of resistance in the line. Therefore any fault current will go to the cold water pipe and the ground rods first and maybe dispersed a little bit before hitting the gas pipe which could be explosive.

Master Electrician, John A. Peters 415-239-5393
www.brooklineElectric.com


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> None of this is required by the NEC.


 

it doesnt have to be


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Murphy said:


> it doesnt have to be



Something not required by the NEC doesn't have to be???


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## humanvoltmeter (May 29, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Why are you grounding to a gas meter?


Well I was under the assumption that all non-current carrying metal (like the gas and water pipes) had to be electrically bonded so that all is at the same potential.

Am I wrong there?


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

I think you are correct, but it is not the gas meter but the inside gas pipes that are to be grounded. Some times there is a dielectric union at the gas meter. Some gas companies want a jumper over the gas meter, some do not. Currently PG&E does not want a jumper.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

humanvoltmeter said:


> Well I was under the assumption that all non-current carrying metal (like the gas and water pipes) had to be electrically bonded so that all is at the same potential.
> 
> Am I wrong there?


Yup.......


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Yup.......


Except for the in comming (high pressure) gas pipe and regulator. We do not want any fault current going there. (smile!)


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

John Peters said:


> For safety, the inspectors want the connection to the interior gas piping to be the last in the series. It's even better if there is a splice on the line somewhere at the various ground connections on the way to the gas Pipes.
> Their reasoning is: a splice would create a little bit of resistance in the line. Therefore any fault current will go to the cold water pipe and the ground rods first and maybe dispersed a little bit before hitting the gas pipe which could be explosive.
> 
> Master Electrician, John A. Peters 415-239-5393
> www.brooklineElectric.com




This is just weird.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> None of this is required by the NEC.


 The job will be done the way the AHJ wants it, not matter what the NEC says


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Are we talking 200 amp service here. I hope not.

If the wire is continuous it does not matter what order you decide to bond.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Voltech said:


> The job will be done the way the AHJ wants it, not matter what the NEC says


Well that sucks. :thumbdown:


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## John Peters (Jan 1, 2009)

I like the AHJ's plan of bonding the gas lines only to the water and not grounding the gas pipes to the service. That way a fault current will have less chance of getting to the gas pipes.

www.brooklineelectric.com


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Voltech said:


> The job will be done the way the AHJ wants it, not matter what the NEC says


That is not the way it should be and I would not let the inspector tell me to use the gas as a grounding electrode. Probably, most of the people on this forum know the code better than I do but what I do know is that you have to know it and be confident that you know it. And stand your ground. You can't say that you don't have your code book handy.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> That is not the way it should be and I would not let the inspector tell me to use the gas as a grounding electrode. Probably, most of the people on this forum know the code better than I do but what I do know is that you have to know it and be confident that you know it. And stand your ground. You can't say that you don't have your code book handy.


Very correct. Do not use the gas pipe as a grounding electrode. 250.52(B). 
Except where 250.104(B) says to bond the gas pipe to the grounding electrode system is ok, so therefore they must figure that the electrons are smart enough during a fault, to stop moving as soon as they reach the point where they go from above ground to underground along the gas piping system, and instead turn around and pick a much better "path of least resistance or some such b.s." via the wire that goes to a rod instead, to return to the utility generation point.... I bet it takes many years of study for them code guys to get to this point of high learnin.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Voltech said:


> The job will be done the way the AHJ wants it, not matter what the NEC says


 
Not always true. In NC if your ahj is trying to enforce things they have not ammended in writing, you can ask the state for a ruling. If you are correct they overrule the ahj.


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Not always true. In NC if your ahj is trying to enforce things they have not ammended in writing, you can ask the state for a ruling. If you are correct they overrule the ahj.


 
not too many occasions where I could see it being worth going through all that


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Murphy said:


> not too many occasions where I could see it being worth going through all that


 I would have to agree with you. I have heard that you can wait as long as about a month for a ruling from the state.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Murphy said:


> not too many occasions where I could see it being worth going through all that


 
Now that is also true. We have called them only two times in 36 years. Won both times. Most the time I will just do what they ask. If I did exactly what he wrote on the red tag and he failed me again I would call the state. Enough is enough.


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## humanvoltmeter (May 29, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Are we talking 200 amp service here. I hope not.
> 
> If the wire is continuous it does not matter what order you decide to bond.



125 amp.


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## humanvoltmeter (May 29, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Yup.......


I *AM *wrong? No offense taken, but why?


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Now that is also true. We have called them only two times in 36 years. Won both times. Most the time I will just do what they ask. If I did exactly what he wrote on the red tag and he failed me again I would call the state. Enough is enough.


Yea I could see how an asinine thing like that would make it worth the battle


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## humanvoltmeter (May 29, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Are we talking 200 amp service here. I hope not.
> 
> If the wire is continuous it does not matter what order you decide to bond.



So, on one conductor, I can bond all pipes and ultimately to the neut bar?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> I would have to agree with you. I have heard that you can wait as long as about a month for a ruling from the state.


 
We got an answer in a day or two. We called the state and explained what the problem was. They called back in a day or two both times and said we were correct and they informed the inspection department. I don't believe any paperwork or a formal complaint was even filed. Been a few years since the last time. All I know is the ahj told the inspector to pass it. One was in a county we hardly ever work and the other was in my county. Usually a call to the asst chief handles any issues and no one gets upset. But not always. 

Example: I drew a plan to add another service on the same property for an outdoor fridge/freezer. Plan review turns it down. Says that is not legal to have more than one service on the same property.. I call and guy tells me that. I said I could even put it on the building if I want as it is a different voltage than the structure is supplied with. I call county and asst cheif says well I dont know the circumstances but it sounds like you can do it. I said well its pretty clear the code allows it so whats the problem? Plan review approved it the next day.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Always ask for a code reference. Then look it up. If your wrong fix it, if they are wrong question it (politely of course).


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## tombs31 (Apr 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Why are you grounding to a gas meter?


He is not _grounding_ to the gas meter, he is _bonding_ the gas meter.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> This is just weird.


How do you quote a whole thread? :huh:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

George Stolz said:


> How do you quote a whole thread? :huh:


How do you quote a whole thread that is 4 months old?


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

humanvoltmeter said:


> So, on one conductor, I can bond all pipes and ultimately to the neut bar?


Not if you are using the GEC that is actually grounding the gas pipe...which is non-compliant. Running an EGC via the branch circuit to the gas furnace or appliance automatically bonds the gas pipe if it is connected to the equipment correctly. 

I can see why the inspector is confusing the issue while trying to correct your installation. No need to bond from the water pipe to the gas pipe. The Bonding has already been accomplished through the equipment.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

George Stolz said:


> How do you quote a whole thread? :huh:





Dennis Alwon said:


> How do you quote a whole thread that is 4 months old?





rbj said:


> Not if you are using the GEC that is actually grounding the gas pipe...which is non-compliant. Running an EGC via the branch circuit to the gas furnace or appliance automatically bonds the gas pipe if it is connected to the equipment correctly.
> 
> I can see why the inspector is confusing the issue while trying to correct your installation. No need to bond from the water pipe to the gas pipe. The Bonding has already been accomplished through the equipment.


The whole thread need's to read 250.104 all the way through


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rbj said:


> Not if you are using the GEC that is actually grounding the gas pipe...which is non-compliant. Running an EGC via the branch circuit to the gas furnace or appliance automatically bonds the gas pipe if it is connected to the equipment correctly.
> 
> I can see why the inspector is confusing the issue while trying to correct your installation. No need to bond from the water pipe to the gas pipe. The Bonding has already been accomplished through the equipment.


 

So you've never been on a CSST job, huh:blink:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So you've never been on a CSST job, huh:blink:




Seems like the plumbers here have went back to copper. We have to get a rough and a final on just the csst and it slowed them down.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So you've never been on a CSST job, huh:blink:


Strictly copper without dielectrics...


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*250.104*



HARRY304E said:


> The whole thread need's to read 250.104 all the way through


Relating to [250.104(B)] and the post that I made? "The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as a bonding means."(my underline) 

New energy codes are requiring 'flameless ignition' gas appliances using both electric ignition and forced air venting having branch circuits w/EGC connections. This has been in effect in some States on the West Coast for quite some time.


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## JimmyR (Mar 11, 2010)

if i bonded the gas meter on long island, they probably would pull my license.


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## PicElec (Sep 16, 2010)

Around here we are also required to bond the gas piping system. If it is continuous black pipe in the house it is not required. It is required when any kind of flexable pipe is installed. Its not a code issue around here, but the manufacturers of track pipe and such put out a guideline that there product has to be bonded to the system. We can bond it right on the connection of the flex, but most guys here will make a black pipe manifold where they run all there pipe back to so we just hit that with a water pipe clamp and run a 4 or 6 back to the panel.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Here we put a bonding clamp on AT the furnace, and run the egc out to it. 

All gas utility distribution pipe is non metallic, with some kind of tracer that lets them know when and where there is a break by means of a TDR. At least thats what I've been told...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Here we put a bonding clamp on AT the furnace, and run the egc out to it.
> 
> All gas utility distribution pipe is non metallic, with some kind of tracer that lets them know when and where there is a break by means of a TDR. At least thats what I've been told...


 

In Richmond, all the main fiber lines are encased in air tubes. A loss of air pressure clues them they have been hit, and where. My brother hit one with a backhoe and the came out to the site within minutes. The average cost of repair from a break of that extent is 25,000-100,000 bucks It could literally bankrupt a small company. Always call Miss utility:thumbup:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

what about the ufer ground? i never grounded gas pipes. usually it gets bonded through the grounded furnace or grounded gas appliance that needs power or whatever. i believe its illegal to use the gas as an electrode


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## hooch (Sep 18, 2010)

can he give you a code # if not call the state and get him off your back


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## van2977 (Jan 13, 2010)

I just did a rezzy job it went from ground bar to both sides of water meter then out to grounding bridge then to rod#1 then rod#2. also inside the hot and cold at water heater was bonded. like someone else said I have never grounded black pipe so I don't know about the gas lines. And the last few I have done the ground bridge is required by inspectors. If you got the time, fight it, if not( because the customer can't wait) u are stuck doing what they want


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## madmaxx (Nov 12, 2010)

why not just pound another ground rod. attach grounding clamps onto the water and gas pipes and then attach a bonding jumper from each one to the third rod. So the bonding goes from the service equipment to the grounding electrode #1,2,3 and #3(covers both gas and water). if the inspector is worried about protection of jumpers going above ground level look at 250.62(B) and also look at 250.62(C), 250.104(A)(1)(3B). That is picturing that they are all relatively close to one another and not spread out.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

The way the inspector asked him to ground is common in San Francisco. They allow you to use the cold water pipe that is already bonded near the panel or whatever and use a separate jumper from hot/cold/gas at the water heater or similar convenient spot. The idea is that is if the cold water is bonded already then a jumper will make the others bonded also. In other areas they won't let you use the water pipe you need two separate runs, or one continuous to each. Gas is required to be bonded in all the areas of California I've worked in though. I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind it, maybe it is the lack of gas bond problems, or maybe the lack of large lightening strikes, I don't know.


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## wayne g (Nov 28, 2010)

The water main is were the main GEC terminates from the electrical panel, the 2 ground rods spaced minimum 6' apart is the suplement to the main GEC.
The gas piping shall be bonded as per code but the key word here is bonded, never is the gas piping to be used as a Grounding Electrode.

This E.I. is making you do wayyyy more then needed, ask him to put it in writing he won't because I don't believe he knows what hes talking about.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

wayne g said:


> The water main is were the main GEC terminates from the electrical panel, the 2 ground rods spaced minimum 6' apart is the suplement to the main GEC.
> The gas piping shall be bonded as per code but the key word here is bonded, never is the gas piping to be used as a Grounding Electrode.
> 
> This E.I. is making you do wayyyy more then needed, ask him to put it in writing he won't because I don't believe he knows what hes talking about.


It is a local S.F thing and it has been this way for years. Strange I know but it is common for the California bay area (except for the double ground rod thing which comes and goes depending on the area you are in.)


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