# Bonding/Grounding yellow flexible gas line???



## abond82

Has anyone had any experience in having to bond the yellow flexible gas line to the electrical ground???? I had a call from my plumber buddy today asking if we could bond his gas lines on the roof of a commercial building. I know you have to bond with a ground clamp each section of flex line that is broken by a fitting but i am not sure what size wire we need and if we can just take it to a grounding conductor in a nearby circuit or if we need to take it all the way back to the grounding electrode??

Thx for the help guys!


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## william1978

You will have to install it per manufactors instructions. Ask your buddy for the instructions all the info you will need is on there.


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## abond82

Instructions on what???? the spool of flex gas line? didnt think it came with instructions.


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## william1978

abond82 said:


> Instructions on what???? the spool of flex gas line? didnt think it came with instructions.


 The instructions on the CSST gas pipe.


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## abond82

OK?????

have you ever done this before? We dont have instructions for the gas line.....


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## william1978

abond82 said:


> OK?????
> 
> have you ever done this before? We dont have instructions for the gas line.....


 I bet I have seen instructions for CSST about 150 to 200 times. The inspector won't ask for them?


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## McClary’s Electrical

abond82 said:


> Has anyone had any experience in having to bond the yellow flexible gas line to the electrical ground???? I had a call from my plumber buddy today asking if we could bond his gas lines on the roof of a commercial building. I know you have to bond with a ground clamp each section of flex line that is broken by a fitting but i am not sure what size wire we need and if we can just take it to a grounding conductor in a nearby circuit or if we need to take it all the way back to the grounding electrode??
> 
> Thx for the help guys!


If it's black iron, it's considered bonded by the EGC. But if there's any CSST on the whole job, even a short piece somewhere, it requires a #6 bond to the service panel or subpanel. The bond should be within 5' of the pipe entering the building. You do not have to bond each flexible piece of CSST. In fact, you NEVER put a clamp on the CSST. It goes on the black pipe. A #6 will pass inpection in 99% of places and manufacturers. However, one manufacturer (I think wardflex) demands a bond to be the same size as the GEC, I got caught on that one time, and had to change a #6 bond to a #4 bond (200 amp service)


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## william1978

mcclary's electrical said:


> However, one manufacturer (I think wardflex) demands a bond to be the same size as the GEC, I got caught on that one time, and had to change a #6 bond to a #4 bond (200 amp service)


 He is doing it on a commercial building this wire could end up being pretty big. The wire doesn't have to go back within 5'. You can hit it any where there is ridged gas pipe or you can hit the manifold.


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## McClary’s Electrical

william1978 said:


> He is doing it on a commercial building this wire could end up being pretty big. The wire doesn't have to go back within 5'. You can hit it any where there is ridged gas pipe or you can hit the manifold.


 
I've had more than one inpsector ask for the bond to be within 5' and yes, on a big service, with wardflex CSST, it would be a big bond.


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## william1978

mcclary's electrical said:


> I've had more than one inpsector ask for the bond to be within 5' and yes, on a big service, with wardflex CSST, it would be a big bond.


 Did he tell you why he was wanting it within 5'? I'm just wondering thats all. I might be wrong, but I don't think it does maybe Dennis will look at this thread I believe he does alot of house's.


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## McClary’s Electrical

william1978 said:


> Did he tell you why he was wanting it within 5'? I'm just wondering thats all. I might be wrong, but I don't think it does maybe Dennis will look at this thread I believe he does alot of house's.


 
He basically said so peolle will know it's there. I actually don't think the 5 foot rule is written anywhere, merely copying the GEC rule. A bond anywhere IMO would be fine. But, it is required to be accessible, so right where the pipe goes through the wall usullally works good.


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## abond82

I just found an interesting web site.

It states that per NEC you look at 250.104 (B). this talks about "other metal piping". This says that you have to bond the piping per the size ground that is supplying the circuit that could energize the pipe.

You guys are both correct though in the fact that the #6 is the new standard that will probably be adopted to NEC and is what the manufacturers recommend

Now in my case the main gas line is black iron but on the roof it changes to flex to feed the Heat units. Do I only need to bond the main gas line at the service with a #6 or whatever size the GEC is?


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## Dennis Alwon

Some manufacturers require a #6 bond back to the service while others require you to use T.250.66 to size it. The clamp cannot be attached to the yellow pipe but rather to the brass fittings that connect the pipes. 

Usually we have a short section of black iron and the other pipe is connected to that. In that case I have connected to the black pipe.


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## McClary’s Electrical

abond82 said:


> I just found an interesting web site.
> 
> It states that per NEC you look at 250.104 (B). this talks about "other metal piping". This says that you have to bond the piping per the size ground that is supplying the circuit that could energize the pipe.
> 
> You guys are both correct though in the fact that the #6 is the new standard that will probably be adopted to NEC and is what the manufacturers recommend
> 
> Now in my case the main gas line is black iron but on the roof it changes to flex to feed the Heat units. Do I only need to bond the main gas line at the service with a #6 or whatever size the GEC is?


 

99.9 % of the time, a #6 is all you need. There is only one man. (that I know of) that requires the bond to be the same size as the GEC. Bond the black pipe to the service with a #6 is all you need. The NEC has not adopted the yet. The 2006 IRC has already adopted it. That's how it's enforced here. The USBC is next in line to adopt it on there next cycle. They both mandate a #6.


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## william1978

I knew you would show up Dennis.


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## RePhase277

Honestly, I have never had to bond any CSST. But If I were to be charged with the task of bonding such a system effectively, I think I would stick a country clamp on each piece of black pipe where the CSST terminated, and run a #6 between each fitting and eventually back to a panel, or building steel, or a copper water line, in a commercial setting.


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## william1978

InPhase277 said:


> Honestly, I have never had to bond any CSST. But If I were to be charged with the task of bonding such a system effectively, I think I would stick a country clamp on each piece of black pipe where the CSST terminated, and run a #6 between each fitting and eventually back to a panel, or building steel, or a copper water line, in a commercial setting.


 How would you make any money doing all of that? I don't think you would win the bid.


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## RePhase277

william1978 said:


> How would you make any money doing all of that? I don't think you would win the bid.


Well, if they wanted it done, they will have to pay for it. Otherwise I just keep on keepin' on. I don't bond or touch any gas line unless it is required by local code for me to do something special to it. One single piece of #6 run through a building hitting bond clamps at various CSST terminations, would likely be relatively inexpensive.


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## william1978

InPhase277 said:


> Well, if they wanted it done, they will have to pay for it. Otherwise I just keep on keepin' on. I don't bond or touch any gas line unless it is required by local code for me to do something special to it. One single piece of #6 run through a building hitting bond clamps at various CSST terminations, would likely be relatively inexpensive.


 On some of the houses around here those that wire houses where charging $200 to bond the gas pipe. Not me.:no:


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## leland

??? Just a thought, As soon as you plug in or wire any gas appliance,Isn't it bonded? :thumbsup:
I have never been asked or questioned about it.

250.104(2)B. .. (Para phrase) The bond Jumper to be sized to the ckt that is "Likely to energize the piping system".
"The equipment grounding conductor for the ckt that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The point of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible."

What is the ckt most likely to energize the equipment?


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## abond82

Ok so now I have establihed that the #6 bond (or larger for a service requiring a larger GEC) at the main gas line entering building is the way to go. Is there any difference since the CSST lines are installed on the roof of the builidng (outside the building)??? Would anyone think those lines should have a bond even though they are electricaly connected by the pipes???


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## william1978

abond82 said:


> Would anyone think those lines should have a bond even though they are electricaly connected by the pipes???


 Yes, the manufactors instructions say it has to be bonded.


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## abond82

I mean in addition to the main bonding jumper at the gas service....


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## william1978

abond82 said:


> I mean in addition to the main bonding jumper at the gas service....


 No,I think that would be enough.


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## McClary’s Electrical

leland said:


> ??? Just a thought, As soon as you plug in or wire any gas appliance,Isn't it bonded? :thumbsup:
> I have never been asked or questioned about it.
> 
> 250.104(2)B. .. (Para phrase) The bond Jumper to be sized to the ckt that is "Likely to energize the piping system".
> "The equipment grounding conductor for the ckt that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The point of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible."
> 
> What is the ckt most likely to energize the equipment?


The NEC views it that way,,,,,but not the manufacturer of the flex or the IRC. The problem with the CSST is during lightning strikes. If the gas line elevates to a higher potential than the metal near it (or vice versa) the CSST can spark to any metal surface, once it sparks, it's very thin and burns a hole through the CSST. You can imagine the rest is history. So, the problem is not remedied by a bond sized according to 250.122.


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## Dennis Alwon

FWIW, Omegaflex makes a CSST pipe that does not require any extra bonding as the yellow stuff does. This stuff is black and is called counter strike. Since I never trust new products I always bond it just to be safe.


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## william1978

There is one of the manufactors that make the black flex that needs to be bonded.


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## Dennis Alwon

william1978 said:


> There is one of the manufactors that make the black flex that needs to be bonded.


Here is info from Omegaflex-- they also state that no gas pipe is lightning proof.


> CounterStrike with the black, protective sleeve uses the same easy
> to install AutoFlare® fittings as conventional TracPipe® with the
> yellow coating. It is sold on wooden reels of varying lengths to
> meet the needs of the gas piping contractor.
> There are no additional bonding requirements for
> CounterStrike® imposed by the manufacturer's installation
> instructions. Improved CounterStrike is to be bonded in
> accordance with the National Electrical Code NFPA 70 Article
> 250.104, the National Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54, and with any
> local requirements which may be in excess of the national codes.


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## william1978

Yea there is one of those manufactors that changed the color of there pipe after CounterStrike came out with the black pipe that didn't need to be bonded. I going to try to find out which brand it is.


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## Mountain Electrician

leland said:


> ??? Just a thought, As soon as you plug in or wire any gas appliance,Isn't it bonded? :thumbsup:
> I have never been asked or questioned about it.
> 
> 250.104(2)B. .. (Para phrase) The bond Jumper to be sized to the ckt that is "Likely to energize the piping system".
> "The equipment grounding conductor for the ckt that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The point of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible."
> 
> What is the ckt most likely to energize the equipment?


CSST bonding requirements are being implemented due to damage in the gas line occurring from indirect lightning strikes, 

Interesting article here that sums it all up:http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/techinv/csst_lightningconcerns.pdf

This is from that article:

*4.0 Conclusions*

The set of unfortunate circumstances that has led the CSST industry to require direct bonding of their gas piping systems is well documented. The damage caused by indirect lightning strikes to these CSST systems is based on differences in electrical potential between parallel metallic pathways to ground which results in an arc between two imbalanced paths. The damage is not a result of the some deficiency of the CSST to carry the lightning current. Therefore, the developed solution to the problem is based on eliminating the imbalance in electrical potential rather than any direct physical change to the CSST itself. These potential imbalances are well known to the electrical industry and the tried and proven solution is equi-potential bonding of all metallic pathways inside the building. To achieve equal potential, these parallel systems must be bonded to the electrical grounding system through a conductor attached directly between the metal (of the system) and the grounding electrode system (in accordance with the NEC).

CSST manufacturers have always required that CSST systems be bonded to the electrical system in accordance with the NFGC and the NEC. However, the bonding methods prescribed within these documents are minimum requirements and are designed to protect the consumer against ground-faults from the premise wiring system. Neither code requires protection against lightning strikes. The proposed bonding method includes the use of a 6 AWG copper wire attached to the gas piping system at the service entrance and connected to the grounding electrode system in accordance with the NEC. All six CSST manufacturers have agreed to implement this requirement on all future installation whether or not the gas equipment that is connected is electrically powered or not. Although the bonding instructions of the six CSST manufacturers currently appear to be different, they all result in the same final installation. Efforts are underway to develop a universal set of installation instructions that will be adopted by all CSST manufacturers.

Parallel efforts are proceeding to update the model fuel gas codes and electrical codes at a national level. However, this process will take years to accomplish. The NFGC is considering a change for the 2009 edition, while the earliest change to the NEC would occur in the 2011 edition. While progress is being achieved on modifying the national codes, efforts are also being made to modify state and local codes on a much faster schedule. State and local jurisdictions are being approached on an individual basis to adopt the manufacturer installation instructions immediately or within a few months time. In addition, the governing product standard is also undergoing a review and update process.


Here in Western Maine, we are bonding the CSST with a #6 back to the GES, but isolating gas fittings must be used at the propane tank (no nat. gas here) to keep the gas system from being an GEC.


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