# First control panel cabinet



## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Here my first cabinet started running the high voltage wires today just thought I share picture an maybe get some feed back good and the bad


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jack30802 said:


> Here my first cabinet started running the high voltage wires today just thought I share picture an maybe get some feed back good and the bad
> 
> View attachment 27724


Looks good..:thumbsup:


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

Don't ask for feedback here, everyone is better than whatever you post


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Looks nice.
High voltage? Whats the nominal voltage?
Drawing? Would really like to see that first. Can you post your drawing?
Baldor drive?

I built a few of those and I am just curious.


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## Concept (Mar 30, 2012)

Looks really good so far! Any chance of additional manual motor starters in the future? I usually group them abit closer in case of another add but nice you have lots of room to work with.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Are you working outside?


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm working inside ,there Allen Bradley's drive well two are and ofter is a cerus as far as the starters there enough room between them to add but shouldn't have to two of them are aux's , when I said high voltage I was talking about 480 for all the motors then I will run control wires which is 120


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Looks good so far. 

It's probably too late to change now, but for future reference it's a good practice when you have VFDs in an control panel to run ALL power wiring associated with the VFDs in totally separate wire duct, not mixed with other power or control wiring. And if you have to cross it, cross it at right angles, don't run parallel to us. The varying frequencies can create chaos in the other power and control circuits, as well as the harmonics reflected back from the line side connections. If you have to mix them, use shielded power cable for the VFDs and ground BOTH ends of it.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

In going to being running shielded wire for the run command on the vfd's so I would need to separate the line side of the drives also?


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh I think I read your post wrong your saying run shielded power wire I never seen any that large you got a company you could point me to ?


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Nice start. Grow and prosper.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Look good.



Jack30802 said:


> Oh I think I read your post wrong your saying run shielded power wire I never seen any that large you got a company you could point me to ?


It's called drive cable. Look at belden.


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## Aydin2011 (Apr 2, 2013)

Good looking panel. Did you label wires?


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

I personally think it looks great! Keep up the goo work


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

good and symmetrical, nice job- well done!


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

Jack30802 said:


> Here my first cabinet started running the high voltage wires today just thought I share picture an maybe get some feed back good and the bad
> 
> View attachment 27724


are you planning to have a cooling fan inside the panel


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

I have two fans one in bottom left corner and one top right pulling air from bottom then pushing out of top


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

JRaef said:


> If you have to mix them, use shielded power cable for the VFDs and ground BOTH ends of it.


Why do you ground both ends of the shield in this application?


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Why do you ground both ends of the shield in this application?


Shielding for control circuits is there to prevent very weak external signals from getting in, so you ground at only one end in order to avoid creating a ground loop that itself could become an errant signal, because control signals are already dealing with very low energy in the first place.

On power cables off of VFDs, the shielding is there for several other reasons. One is to prevent the EMI/RFI from getting OUT of the cables, another prime one on output cables is to prevent capacitive coupling due to the fast rise time of the DC pulses from creating standing wave voltage spikes that punch through the motor winding insulation. In those cases, you shield at both ends so as to provide the easiest path to ground for the errant signals, and any potential ground loops are insignificant to the power side.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Look good.
> 
> 
> 
> It's called drive cable. Look at belden.


Yep, Belden and Olflex (Lapp) are the two biggies, but lately a lot more cable suppliers are getting in on the action.

http://www.belden.com/products/industrialcable/vfd-cable.cfm

http://www.lappusa.com/Selector-Cable4.asp

http://www.alphawire.com/en/Products/Cable/Alpha-Wire-Industrial-Series-Cable/IndustrialSeriesV-Flex

http://www.amercable.com/2.5.9/?id=og&prod=vfd


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Lapp makes nice stuff. We use a lot of their grey TC-ER/WTTC.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

The control wires are whipping my butt as far as getting them from door to cabinet and pointers?


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Any pointers


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Diagram and number them, even if it's temporary. Terminate everything at the door end first, then spiroband it and anchor it on both sides. This allows you to cut your exact length when you terminate everything in the cabinet end.

Alternately, leave stuff extra long and just terminate at both ends like you're doing. Then you can band it up starting at the door side, and cram all the extra slack in the panduit. It's faster, but not nearly as neat and god help anyone who takes apart the panduit in the future.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yea I think I'm going terminate everything on the door frost then cut to length in cabinet I'm numbering the wires anyway so it should be pretty easy thanks for advice


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

I have built and wired hundreds of control panels since the late 70's, the way I do it is to mark up the print to show all points for any door or remote devices then install numbered terminal blocks for each. I do not like going from a door switch or device directly to a panel mounted component, spending a few dollars more for terminals will not only make a quicker and neater panel but it will aid in troubleshooting later.

I then wire each device on the door with a length of wire that would reach the furthest terminal while adding a bit more for a nice door hinge curl, number and then cut. When I have all the door wiring done I wire tie the harness loosely or apply spiral wrap then land them all cut to length on the terminal blocks.

Leaving the wire ties somewhat loose at first will allow you to roll the wires in your fingers so they will fall into place and make a neat harness. Wire tie bases will usually pull of after a while if used as a hinge point unless you drill and tap them - I normally wire tie the harness from the last door switch body via a tie loop to the duct entry point only and never in the duct itself.

It looks like you do not have terminals for everything so then I would install wires from each door device leaving an ample length numbered and cut, when all is done make your loop form a harness and terminate at each device cut to length, yes you will have to number each wire twice and you will have a few feet of copper waste - but that will make a nice slush fund after awhile.


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## CYoung (Apr 19, 2013)

Some of our control panels have Panduit mounted on the door and all the wires are ran through that over to the main panel. I will look for some tonight that have not been destroyed and take a picture to post. This method is ok until the first person needs to troubleshoot anything, then all covers are on floor of panel and wires are pulled every which way.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Look at this one. I have to rebuild this one, and relocate.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

I do have a main control terminal block that's where I'm running all the wires from the door to then to comments out of terminal block is that the better way to do it?


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

How are you going to run yours new setup


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jack30802 said:


> How are you going to run yours new setup


We are installing a PLC system with Ethernet and remote I/O. This is some of the existing 120V inputs and outputs for a conveyor, from the limit/proximity switches to the solenoid outputs.

I removed the Panduits to read the wire numbers for my drawings.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I forgot to say nice neat work !!!


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm looking for a software for drawing what on do you like


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks a lot I'm trying my best and learning a lot on the way


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jack30802 said:


> I'm looking for a software for drawing what on do you like


I had to take notes so I can know what all this was doing, but I use the guy from here, EZ Schematics.com for my ladder. This job, my employer is doing all the drawings with a cad software.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Jack30802 said:


> Any pointers


Yes. *Number* both ends and connect all wires going to the door and leave them all long.
Install wire channel on the door, just like you did in the enclosure.
Then neatly tyrap the wires entering the door and put a grounding jumper from the door to the grounding terminal block.

Where's the drawing?



Jack30802 said:


> I'm looking for a software for drawing what on do you like


EZ Schematics. Inexpensive and easy to use. The proprietor is a member here.
His name is Dan Wade. I forget his forum name. 
Dorian, hook this guy up.

I want to see the drawing he is using to build this panel.


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## Frank Mc (Nov 7, 2010)

Jack30802 said:


> Oh I think I read your post wrong your saying run shielded power wire I never seen any that large you got a company you could point me to ?


Here in Oz we call it VSD Cable. We use mainly Lapp cable. As jraef has already stated ground both ends of the outer shield..I think i read somewhere that if you only ground one end it acts like an antenna ,transmitting lots of emi..??

Frank


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I just use duct on the door too. 3M VHB tape, done. I've done like a billion door harnesses, you get better and better at eyeballing over time.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Big John said:


> ... It's faster, but not nearly as neat and god help anyone who takes apart the panduit in the future.


Lol, I've been that guy who opens up that Panduit and had the bundle spill out in front of me like a rising loaf of bread! I remember one where they used Ty-wraps to hold the Panduit covers on because they were so over stuffed.

Tip: do NOT do that!

Real tip:
I like to install a Ty-wrap base on the door next to the hinge where I want everything to cross, and if possible, I like to have the bundle run lengthwise along the hinge for a couple of inches so that the flexion of the door opening is twisting the bundle more that pinching it. So that means two Ty-wrap bases. PS: Look at dronai's hinge crossing in post 28, that's what I mean.

You also have to be careful about picking that spot sometimes because of what happens to the bundle when you close the door. It moves into the box, and if there is anything mounted to the back pan at that location, it can put stress on the mounting of that device. It doesn't appear you are going to have this issue on your panel, but it's a good plan nonetheless. I just had to deal with one where the door bundle was hitting an Ethernet connector and forcing the connector to one side, which made some pins lose connection. When the door was open, everything worked. When they closed the door, the Ethernet stopped communicating. That was a PITA to troubleshoot.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yea hook me up lol I'm actually using a drawing off another machine but wanna make a new one cause motor hp's are not the same and there is a couple more things I have added on and upgraded


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jack30802 said:


> Yea hook me up lol I'm actually using a drawing off another machine but wanna make a new one cause motor hp's are not the same and there is a couple more things I have added on and upgraded


 
www.wadeinstruments.com

You guys using ty wrap bases, how do you keep those things from coming unstuck :laughing:


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Well got wires on door almost done today didn't have much time to work on it today


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## Instro King (Aug 2, 2013)

Well organized


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Looks good.

I can't promise it will make any difference, but the only thing I would do is add a couple more sticky-backs to the spot where the harness meets the door; might keep it from pulling off as quickly.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yea I thought about drilling and taping at least one hole in the door with a clamp for the harness I know it should ghetto but I gorilla glue the back of the pads that are not tape and it holds up pretty good


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## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

Do many of you guys use ferrules on your conductors? We use them on every wire in a control cabinet but have found not only does it seem rare but some wholesalers looked at us like deer in headlights when were working out of town and had to go to the local supply house for some.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I just use duct on the door too. 3M VHB tape, done. I've done like a billion door harnesses, you get better and better at eyeballing over time.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Kryptes said:


> Do many of you guys use ferrules on your conductors? We use them on every wire in a control cabinet but have found not only does it seem rare but some wholesalers looked at us like deer in headlights when were working out of town and had to go to the local supply house for some.


I like em but rarely use em unless gettin big wiring into small terms

Do use this









Or a flat style


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Jack30802 said:


> Yea I thought about drilling and taping at least one hole in the door with a clamp for the harness I know it should ghetto but I gorilla glue the back of the pads that are not tape and it holds up pretty good


We use Panduit CPM122S mounts to keep our harnesses fastened to the doors. They mount between the operator and the door, no extra hole needed through door. Pic is for a 30mm operator, they also have them for 22mm operators. Harness will never disconnect from mount and pull on terminations, no matter how many times door is opened. I'll check for panel pictures.

Sorry about blurry picture.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)




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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I hope your being paid by the hour !


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

I am why's that


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

After building and installing dozens of panels similar to the ones in this thread, I was asked to produce a "UL Industrial Control Panel Label" on a completed project a few years ago. Found a company, I think from Virginia, to perform a site evaluation and provide a UL label. No too cheap. Also had to make a few modifications to the panel. Since then I have subcontracted out a few custom panel assembly projects to UL panel shops, but mostly supplying actual OEM motor control centers instead. Is anyone on here a UL control panel shop?


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

How many hours it normal take to build a panel like this one I haven't added up my time yet ,some days I only had hour or two if I was to guess probably around 60 or 70 hours


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jack30802 said:


> I am why's that


So you make some money :thumbup:


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Jack30802 said:


> How many hours it normal take to build a panel like this one I haven't added up my time yet ,some days I only had hour or two if I was to guess probably around 60 or 70 hours


Take this with a grain of salt as I have wired several hundred panels over the last 35 years.

1) markup print, stage components for layout - 8 hours
2) layout, drill, mount all components - 8 hours.
3) wire back panel to terminals - 8 hours.
4) wire door components to terminal blocks - 4 hours.
5) apply power and test as best as possible - 4 hours.

In reality this would have been a 2 day job if left alone and had all the tools and devices readily at hand, but seriously doubt you are a panel shop like I was - I would quote this at 32 hours for an experienced wire-man.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

SteveBayshore said:


> After building and installing dozens of panels similar to the ones in this thread, I was asked to produce a "UL Industrial Control Panel Label" on a completed project a few years ago. Found a company, I think from Virginia, to perform a site evaluation and provide a UL label. No too cheap. Also had to make a few modifications to the panel. Since then I have subcontracted out a few custom panel assembly projects to UL panel shops, but mostly supplying actual OEM motor control centers instead. Is anyone on here a UL control panel shop?


I worked hand in hand with one of our engineers to become a UL panel shop, it took the better part of a year on both our parts to amass all the paper work and documentation - it was not difficult but rather time consuming.

The initial cost was tens of thousands but paid off when quoting and selling panels in newyork and chicago. This was in the 1980's so take it for what its worth.


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## Jack30802 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yea were not a panel shop by far I use a hydraulic knock out tool , what do u use ? And man that stainless is hard drilling just to get the hole for the knock out I did number ever wire with slip on numbers that seam time consuming ,I feel like when I do another one it will go a lot faster I


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Jack30802 said:


> Yea were not a panel shop by far I use a hydraulic knock out tool , what do u use ? And man that stainless is hard drilling just to get the hole for the knock out I did number ever wire with slip on numbers that seam time consuming ,I feel like when I do another one it will go a lot faster I


U get faster and better with time...or atleast u better


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

We use end sleeves sometimes.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> cram all the extra slack in the panduit. It's faster, but not nearly as neat and god help anyone who takes apart the panduit in the future.


Or coil it up on the door.










IDK, had to snap a pic :laughing:


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Or coil it up on the door.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THAT is some quality workmanship! 

Take note of how his ends peal out from the bottom of the bundle and the top of the bundle appears smoothly diminishing in size. That is the result of careful planning and placement of the conductors. About 1 in 10 of the wireman (and wire women) I had go though my shop were capable of understanding the value of that kind of presentation. I would try to teach them, but it was mostly met with disdain because it meant being mindful. But when an end user sees that, compared to a random sloppy bundle, they will be more loyal when it comes to choosing you the next time they need a panel built.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It was a government job. They probably spent a week wiring the first pilot light.

Should have put more time into spacing the stuff out better.


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