# Confusion About Tool List



## jkpiowa

Hello!

I was just hired as an apprentice and start March 26th. I was out last night buying tools from the short list I was given and I found it a little confusing. 

Cordless drill and spade bits
Lineman’s pliers
Wire strippers
Straight screw driver
Phillips screw driver
Hammer
Pouches
Tape measure
Utility knife
Side cutters
Pen light
Plug tester
Electrical test kit

My questions are:
- The test kit I bought came with what I assume is a plug tester and a pen light, is there some other type/variety I should get as well? It seems odd they'd ask me to get a "kit" and also the separate components that come with the kit.
- What is the difference between lineman's pliers and side cutters? I tried to do some internet research and became more confused. Some folks call lineman's the same as side cutters, some say side cutters are also diagonal cutters. At the store it looked like lineman's and side cutters were virtually identical, but maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.
- I bought a Klein multi-tool, would that suffice instead of buying both screwdrivers?
- I'm a woman and have small hands, is it acceptable that I purchased the 6" variety of pliers instead of the longer varieties? If there's some specific reason I need the 7", 8" or 9", I will return the ones I bought and make do with the larger sizes. 

I'm very excited for this career change, but buying tools I am unfamiliar with was a little overwhelming. Any clarity would be so welcome.


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## MechanicalDVR

You need 9" linemans pliers to cut romex the smaller size will just make your job that much harder. 

When you say multi tool do you mean a screwdriver with more than one tip?

You will need a standard 4" straight tip screwdriver to use to tighten lock nuts and open knock outs a multitip screwdriver isn't going to do that job.

The fact they tell you to buy spade bits tells me you got a job with a crappy company, drill bits of any kind a expendable and not really an employees responsibility. 

Best of luck with this company. 

Keep your eyes open for a better one.


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## jkpiowa

Duly noted - I'll go grab a larger size as well. 

Yes, Klein Tools 32500

I have a few random screwdrivers around the house, I'll grab a few to throw in my bag.

I certainly hope that isn't the case, but I guess I'll find out pretty quickly if it is!


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## Navyguy

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your carreer path.

Here is side cutters

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/h...tting-pliers/8-high-leverage-diagonal-cutters

Here is linemen pliers

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/h...-journeyman-pliers-high-leverage-side-cutting

To answer your other questions, I suspect the "test kit" is a proper multi-meter with an assortment of leads maybe something like this

https://www.myflukestore.com/p18953/fluke-117-323-kit-multimeter-and-clamp-meter-combo-kit

You may find that the multi-tool is cumbersome as the handles are larger and if you loose or wear out an individual bit it may be difficult to replace. Many of the multi tools do no have the durability for "day-to-day" work but are great for service calls and such.

Longer handle will give you more leverage for cutting all wires and materials but especially the larger / thicker items.

Cheers
John


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## jkpiowa

Thanks for the info!


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## Navyguy

MechanicalDVR said:


> You need 9" linemans pliers to cut romex the smaller size will just make your job that much harder.
> 
> When you say multi tool do you mean a screwdriver with more than one tip?
> 
> You will need a standard 4" straight tip screwdriver to use to tighten lock nuts and open knock outs a multitip screwdriver isn't going to do that job.
> 
> The fact they tell you to buy spade bits tells me you got a job with a crappy company, drill bits of any kind a expendable and not really an employees responsibility.
> 
> Best of luck with this company.
> 
> Keep your eyes open for a better one.


Slightly off topic... do you think the cordless drill is a bit too much also?
Generally the EC supplies the drills, bits, consumables, etc and such but in this word of cordless everything, do these tools now become the responsibility of the worker?

I have been going back an forth on this for awhile and have never really thought to ask the question out loud. Maybe I will start a new thread.

Cheers
John


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## splatz

Some people call linemans side cutters, some people call diagonal pliers side cutters. If a tool list has only one, it's going to be lineman's pliers. 

I wouldn't go any lower than 8" on linemans pliers but you might want a set with less plastic on the handles if your hands are small. Channellocks makes a good 8" set of linemans pliers. Greenlee calls linemans side cutters. 

https://www.greenlee.com/catalog/Professional-Hand-Tools/Pliers/Side-cutting?ps=1000

The "electrical


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## MechanicalDVR

Navyguy said:


> Slightly off topic... do you think the cordless drill is a bit too much also?
> Generally the EC supplies the drills, bits, consumables, etc and such but in this word of cordless everything, do these tools now become the responsibility of the worker?
> 
> I have been going back an forth on this for awhile and have never really thought to ask the question out loud. Maybe I will start a new thread.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I understand many non union companies ask for people to supply their own cordless drills and I personally think it's over board unless they are going to replace them when they fail or break.

I feel if you are in business you should be supplying powertools, ladders, safety equipment, and vehicles.

I am shocked at the number of people that supply these things as an employee.


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## splatz

Navyguy said:


> Slightly off topic... do you think the cordless drill is a bit too much also?
> Generally the EC supplies the drills, bits, consumables, etc and such but in this word of cordless everything, do these tools now become the responsibility of the worker?
> 
> I have been going back an forth on this for awhile and have never really thought to ask the question out loud. Maybe I will start a new thread.


I don't think it's unreasonable for people to supply their own cordless drill or impact driver. 

If I was making these lists I'd make the first day on the job list VERY short and affordable, another list for 90 days - past probation when they've got a few checks under their belt, and I might expand the list each year of the apprenticeship / each pay raise. 

Now that I think of it I'd just issue them a set of tools to use for their first 90 days, they're theirs when they hit the 90 day mark. This way I don't have t have an awkward conversation telling them to take back their Commercial Electric junk.


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## gnuuser

in our line of work the wrong tools can be dangerous
there are cheaply made so called electricians tools that could leave you with a nasty surprise.

its recommended that you use insulated tool (screwdrivers, side cutters, linemans pliers,etc.)
tape measures in an energized panel is a no-no a folding plastic ruler for this but a tape measure is ok for non energized applications
plug testers ok but not really required as your meter and thorough knowledge makes them redundant.
usually your employer supplies you with the basic tools needed but some don't.

but your best tools as a starting apprentice are a notebook and pen.
take notes on everything! quick notes can be edited later.
and ask your journeyman to review your notes from time to time.


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## PaddyF924

I work for an extremely large non union company. On our first day we are given a tool list that spells out what we should have at different times -such as first year apprentice or journeyman. A 12v drill is on the list and the way I view it is that it makes my work easier and saves wear on tear on my body.


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## joebanana

Navyguy said:


> Slightly off topic... do you think the cordless drill is a bit too much also?
> Generally the EC supplies the drills, bits, consumables, etc and such but in this word of cordless everything, do these tools now become the responsibility of the worker?
> 
> I have been going back an forth on this for awhile and have never really thought to ask the question out loud. Maybe I will start a new thread.
> 
> Cheers
> John


That's the difference between union, and non-union. Union shops provide all power tools, bits, tape, gloves, PPE, hard hats, etc. non-union shops don't provide squat. Not even temp lighting, or ex-cords.
As a side note to the OP, a good flashlight is a must.


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## PaddyF924

Mine provides bits, hard hats, hi viz, power tools, tape and anything ppe. Ive worked for other shops that didn't tho and I quickly decided that it wasn't for me.


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## Switched

joebanana said:


> That's the difference between union, and non-union. Union shops provide all power tools, bits, tape, gloves, PPE, hard hats, etc. *non-union shops don't provide squat*. Not even temp lighting, or ex-cords.
> As a side note to the OP, a good flashlight is a must.


I love blanket statements of ignorance.....:wink:


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## joebanana

Switched said:


> I love blanket statements of ignorance.....:wink:


I must have missed it, when did you do that?


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## HackWork

joebanana said:


> I must have missed it, when did you do that?


Hi joe. I see that you are still making a fool of yourself. At least you excel at _something_.


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## Wiresmith

jkpiowa said:


> Hello!
> 
> 
> My questions are:
> - The test kit I bought came with what I assume is a plug tester and a pen light, is there some other type/variety I should get as well? It seems odd they'd ask me to get a "kit" and also the separate components that come with the kit.


it seems odd to me too, them having test kit on there list makes me question the there electrical abilities/inabilities and ignorance. i don't know what they want, probably a multi-meter.



jkpiowa said:


> - What is the difference between lineman's pliers and side cutters? I tried to do some internet research and became more confused. Some folks call lineman's the same as side cutters, some say side cutters are also diagonal cutters. At the store it looked like lineman's and side cutters were virtually identical, but maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.


linesmans are side-cutters, i think they mean diagonal cutting pliers. this is another sign the company may be incompetent 



jkpiowa said:


> - I bought a Klein multi-tool, would that suffice instead of buying both screwdrivers?


probably not



jkpiowa said:


> - I'm a woman and have small hands, is it acceptable that I purchased the 6" variety of pliers instead of the longer varieties? If there's some specific reason I need the 7", 8" or 9", I will return the ones I bought and make do with the larger sizes.


larger ones make cutting easier for you



jkpiowa said:


> I'm very excited for this career change, but buying tools I am unfamiliar with was a little overwhelming. Any clarity would be so welcome.


your confusion is not because you are unfamiliar with the tools, the company's list was written by someone that appears to be inexperienced with electrical work. i recommend you be careful,look for a better electrician to work for and possibly go talk to the union hall/training alliance most of them love hiring women. it's sad to say and unexpected by people outside of the industry but there are a ton of people doing electrical work that would not be qualified by a reasonable person with adequate knowledge of the industry

the spade bits seem odd to me as well


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## PaddyF924

Calling diagonal cutters side cutters is purely a regional thing. It has nothing to do with intelligence or their abilities as an electrician.


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## paulengr

The Klein multitools are amazing. Work great as a general purpose tool and is always within reach. They hold up a long time, about as good as dedicated tools.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sbrn33

joebanana said:


> That's the difference between union, and non-union. Union shops provide all power tools, bits, tape, gloves, PPE, hard hats, etc. non-union shops don't provide squat. Not even temp lighting, or ex-cords.
> As a side note to the OP, a good flashlight is a must.


You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like just another brainwashed union shill that listened to his other uninformed co workers. 
I know now not to take anything you say seriously.


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## Pete E

jkpiowa said:


> Hello!
> 
> I was just hired as an apprentice and start March 26th. I was out last night buying tools from the short list I was given and I found it a little confusing.
> 
> Cordless drill and spade bits
> Lineman’s pliers
> Wire strippers
> Straight screw driver
> Phillips screw driver
> Hammer
> Pouches
> Tape measure
> Utility knife
> Side cutters
> Pen light
> Plug tester
> Electrical test kit


That seems a very generic list..What size screw drivers for instance? Also
with regards the "electrical test kit"...some times the term "kit" is used when they actually mean "equipment" ie "load all your kit in the vehicle"

Given the huge variety of electrical test equipment out there and its often quite high cost, I think I would get clarification from the company exactly what they mean...Even something as simple as Multimeter comes in a number of forms, then you have things like Clampmeters , Non Contact Voltage Detectors ect...


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## emtnut

paulengr said:


> The Klein multitools are amazing. Work great as a general purpose tool and is always within reach. They hold up a long time, about as good as dedicated tools.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yer a funny guy Paul :vs_laugh:


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## PaddyF924

Start with a a fluke t+pro and maybe a t-5


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## paulengr

emtnut said:


> Yer a funny guy Paul :vs_laugh:




I’ve tried the others. Used to carry a Leathernan too. Most of the multitools do suck. Klein screwdriver is one of the few exceptions.

Also not mentioned is a hammer or maybe that’s the lineman pliers and an impact screwdriver to drive conduit nuts. I’ve seen the conduit wrench things but they stop at 3/4”. That’s usually the smallest conduit I run. Production guys just destroy anything smaller and I don’t know how to run 350 MCM it larger on 3/4” so a hammer and screwdriver is the way to go on setting the lock nuts.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RePhase277

Pete E said:


> That seems a very generic list..What size screw drivers for instance? Also
> with regards the "electrical test kit"...some times the term "kit" is used when they actually mean "equipment" ie "load all your kit in the vehicle"


Only on that side of the Atlantic. No one in North America uses the word "kit" that way.


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## Bird dog

paulengr said:


> a hammer and screwdriver is the way to go on setting the lock nuts. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Beating screwdriver & Klein side cutters. Don't knock the lineman off the pole.


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## cabletie

I always thought they were called diagonal cutters not pliers. There commonly called dikes or *****. Not really sure of the spelling. Buy the angled ones for pulling staples.


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## MechanicalDVR

jkpiowa said:


> Duly noted - I'll go grab a larger size as well.
> 
> Yes, Klein Tools 32500
> 
> I have a few random screwdrivers around the house, I'll grab a few to throw in my bag.
> 
> I certainly hope that isn't the case, but I guess I'll find out pretty quickly if it is!


The 32500 is a great choice, I always carry one.

You are still going to need a 'beater' screwdriver to use more as a punch/chisel/pry tool, an older one from home with some heft to it maybe just fine.

Asking you to supply spade bits is a huge red flag to me.


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## MechanicalDVR

paulengr said:


> I’ve tried the others. Used to carry a Leathernan too. Most of the multitools do suck. Klein screwdriver is one of the few exceptions.
> 
> Also not mentioned is a hammer or maybe that’s the lineman pliers and an impact screwdriver to drive conduit nuts. I’ve seen the conduit wrench things but they stop at 3/4”. That’s usually the smallest conduit I run. Production guys just destroy anything smaller and I don’t know how to run 350 MCM it larger on 3/4” so *a hammer and screwdriver is the way to go on setting the lock nuts.
> *


Can't recall the last time I saw anyone using a hammer instead of linemans and beater to drive locknuts.

Have you been out of the field that long?


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## bostonPedro

Laughing at all the non union guys who get defensive because most of these shops not all of course make their employees buy cordless drills. Cheap bastids !!!!! 
I even had to buy 1/2 and 3/4 benders when in that sector


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## PaddyF924

I think posters just want to be sure that op realizes that not every shop is the same. The one that she is starting with sounds like a loser and he had handed me a list with spade bits on it I probably would have told him thanks but no thanks. The op needs to realize that non union or union she shouldn't be providing any kind of consumable or ppe and if she stays non union she should be looking for shops that provide insurance and also a 401k for her future.


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## joebanana

sbrn33 said:


> You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like just another brainwashed union shill that listened to his other uninformed co workers.
> I know now not to take anything you say seriously.


Please explain why you would think that. I've worked non-union for years, and the majority of shops are so cheap they barely supply material. "Own truck and tools" means exactly that, and you also get to transport material in your own vehicle. 
Yeah, some shops provide power tools, but they're mostly beat to hell, missing parts, or don't work at all, and you have to beg for a gang box. 
The only non-union companies that are decent are larger ones, mom and pop shops suck.
Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, and I wont consider you Hack lover.


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## jkpiowa

Thank you all for the advice and information! The differing perspectives are interesting.

I tried to reach out to my local IBEW first, but nothing came of it. When I tried to show eagerness and persistence when I hadn't heard anything back after submitting my paperwork and test scores, I was met with passive aggressive bull**** as the apprenticeship coordinator emailed my boss at my current job. Needless to say, I stopped pursuing that avenue. I cold-called and emailed many different area contractors, but the one that hired me was the only one willing to take a chance and we got along well at the interview. I don't know how it will be working for them, but at the very least I should get some industry experience to put something trade-related on my resume. This company does have a good local reputation, and according to the owner they keep their workers for an average of 12 years.

I do have a hammer and a flashlight, for those who mentioned it.


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## joebanana

PaddyF924 said:


> Mine provides bits, hard hats, hi viz, power tools, tape and anything ppe. Ive worked for other shops that didn't tho and I quickly decided that it wasn't for me.


Apparently I'm not the only one that "doesn't know what I'm talking about".
You're lucky to find a non-union shop that provides ALL the necessary tools and equipment for the job. Most don't.
I worked for one that asked me if I "have any cash or a credit card", because I needed more conduit. They were serious.
They also had supplier issues, so, they changed the company name/ownership mid-stream to get credit for materials for ongoing projects.
I had to supply my own power tools for that outfit.


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## PaddyF924

You're looking at the bottom of the list in the wanted ads then. You're making broad assumptions based on your personal experiences. Not every shop is the same and more than that not every state/region is the same.


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## 99cents

Personally, I don't think an employee should be supplying a drill for drilling holes all day. If he wants to buy a nice little 12V combo to make life easier and go faster, that's okay.

Drill bits, the boss buys.


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## Lone Crapshooter

It is extremely poor form for the union electricians to make fun of the non signatured electricians for having to work the way they to work.
Most of have to work that way because to work that way because we could never get in your locals. 
Don't make fun of us because you are not willing to take us into your locals. 

LC


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## lighterup

bostonPedro said:


> Laughing at all the non union guys who get defensive because most of these shops not all of course make their employees buy cordless drills. Cheap bastids !!!!!
> I even had to buy 1/2 and 3/4 benders when in that sector


Boston...I liked "bastids" so if I may
it's "sectah" not sector.:biggrin:


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## bostonPedro

lighterup said:


> Boston...I liked "bastids" so if I may
> it's "sectah" not sector.:biggrin:


:vs_laugh: 
Happy St Patricks Day


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## lighterup

The first EC i worked for was so cheap , if you 
asked for ground screws at the shop counter 
(where they discriminated the materials in 
the morning) he would put like 6 of em in 
a baggy if you were lucky to get any at
all).

Other wise it was .."Just use drywall screws!"
in gruff loud voice.

And yes , employees had to go out & 
buy their own cordless tools by which
motivation was judged by how much 
you were willing to spend.


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## lighterup

bostonPedro said:


> :vs_laugh:
> Happy St Patricks Day


Same to you!:thumbsup::clover:


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## Switchgear277

Is this for the union or non union
Bc I know I’m the union the contractors are suppose to supply drills , bits , power tools , 

I workerd for some non union shops used to try and make me buy drills power tools etc , typically rat move


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## sbrn33

Switchgear277 said:


> Is this for the union or non union
> Bc I know I’m the union the contractors are suppose to supply drills , bits , power tools ,
> 
> I workerd for some non union shops used to try and make me buy drills power tools etc , typically rat move


Did you get beat up if you happened to bring your own impact because you really liked it and it made your job easier?


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## PaddyF924

Could you do your job with just the hand tools on the list?


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## Switchgear277

sbrn33 said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this for the union or non union
> Bc I know I’m the union the contractors are suppose to supply drills , bits , power tools ,
> 
> I workerd for some non union shops used to try and make me buy drills power tools etc , typically rat move
> 
> 
> 
> Did you get beat up if you happened to bring your own impact because you really liked it and it made your job easier?
Click to expand...

 no but to expect a first year apprentice that dosnt make much to buy power tools in my opion is not fair . It’s the contractors responsibity . What next should he bring in benders , and hole punches next .

I actually was the guy that would buy impact and drills hole saws , etc 

And when all my bits and hole saws 
Drills got burned up contractor didn’t appreciate it and I learned my lesson . 

I actually wrk for a union shop and I bring in my impact but that’s only bc 
It’s a small shop and I already had one .


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## sbrn33

Switchgear277 said:


> no but to expect a first year apprentice that dosnt make much to buy power tools in my opion is not fair . It’s the contractors responsibity . What next should he bring in benders , and hole punches next .
> 
> I actually was the guy that would buy impact and drills hole saws , etc
> 
> And when all my bits and hole saws
> Drills got burned up contractor didn’t appreciate it and I learned my lesson .
> 
> I actually wrk for a union shop and I bring in my impact but that’s only bc
> It’s a small shop and I already had one .


I agree with you on buys the youngsters tools and I do to a point. 
You better be careful about bringing you own impact there is a guy on here that will beat you up if he catches you. You are showing the other workers up and hurting their little feelings.


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## Switchgear277

sbrn33 said:


> Switchgear277 said:
> 
> 
> 
> no but to expect a first year apprentice that dosnt make much to buy power tools in my opion is not fair . It’s the contractors responsibity . What next should he bring in benders , and hole punches next .
> 
> I actually was the guy that would buy impact and drills hole saws , etc
> 
> And when all my bits and hole saws
> Drills got burned up contractor didn’t appreciate it and I learned my lesson .
> 
> I actually wrk for a union shop and I bring in my impact but that’s only bc
> It’s a small shop and I already had one .
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you on buys the youngsters tools and I do to a point.
> You better be careful about bringing you own impact there is a guy on here that will beat you up if he catches you. You are showing the other workers up and hurting their little feelings.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with showing the other workers up , the reason why the tool list was created is Bc some 
Contractors will try and squeeze 
As much as they can from you ,

Expecting a first year apprentice to bring in drill sets drill bits hole saws 
Etc is taking advantage of him ,

You you do it will never end then he will bring in benders hole punches etc ,

And in my opion any contractor that does ask him to bring in drill sets 
Bits etc , must not be too professional, and most likely dosnt make a lot of money , or is just greedy .

Like I said I weked for a lot of non union shops were I braught in my impacts drill sets , hole saws , paddle bits , benders , etc 

And when all my tools got burned up 
The contractor didn’t even care or appreciate it , and I learned my lesson , 

Only contractors that take advantage would put drill sets , impacts , paddle bits , etc on tool list 
My opion that contractor is not professional and I wouldn’t wrk for him


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## kg7879

MechanicalDVR said:


> Can't recall the last time I saw anyone using a hammer instead of linemans and beater to drive locknuts.
> 
> Have you been out of the field that long?


The cheap connectors that we are getting now you can't even do that. The lock rings just bind up and the connector spins. I have been using my apprentice's lockring wrench and channel locks to tighten the lock rings. Just as efficient as you can get.


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## Navyguy

MechanicalDVR said:


> Can't recall the last time I saw anyone using a hammer instead of linemans and beater to drive locknuts.
> 
> Have you been out of the field that long?


You did not work with me last week, or the week before or before that...

Hammer is for hammering, pliers are for... pliering!? 

I yell at my guys for using their linesmen as a hammer... plus if they ever break the Klein guy will look at the side and say "nope, you used them as a hammer, no warranty".

Cheers
John


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## MechanicalDVR

Navyguy said:


> You did not work with me last week, or the week before or before that...
> 
> Hammer is for hammering, pliers are for... pliering!?
> 
> I yell at my guys for using their linesmen as a hammer... plus if they ever break the Klein guy will look at the side and say "nope, you used them as a hammer, no warranty".
> 
> Cheers
> John


I have a couple pair with dull cutting edges but none that have ever broken from tapping on a beater.

I will say I have never driven in a romex staple with them.


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## Pete E

Navyguy said:


> You did not work with me last week, or the week before or before that...
> 
> Hammer is for hammering, pliers are for... pliering!?
> 
> I yell at my guys for using their linesmen as a hammer... plus if they ever break the Klein guy will look at the side and say "nope, you used them as a hammer, no warranty".
> 
> Cheers
> John


Tool abusers are one of my pet hates especially if its my tools they are abusing!


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## Bird dog

Navyguy said:


> Hammer is for hammering, pliers are for... pliering!?


And needle nose are for...well never mind. :surprise:


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## RePhase277

Bird dog said:


> And needle nose are for...well never mind. :surprise:


Smoking a roach?


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## OldMasterTech

MechanicalDVR said:


> You need 9" linemans pliers to cut romex the smaller size will just make your job that much harder.
> 
> When you say multi tool do you mean a screwdriver with more than one tip?
> 
> You will need a standard 4" straight tip screwdriver to use to tighten lock nuts and open knock outs a multitip screwdriver isn't going to do that job.
> 
> The fact they tell you to buy spade bits tells me you got a job with a crappy company, drill bits of any kind a expendable and not really an employees responsibility.
> 
> Best of luck with this company.
> 
> Keep your eyes open for a better one.


Agreed, hand tools and basic power tools are on you but consumables should be on the company. I also have a policy where my guys can bring me any broken or worn out tool and I'll replace it. I figure if you wore it out working for me it paid for itself a few times!


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## MechanicalDVR

Bird dog said:


> And needle nose are for...well never mind. :surprise:


*Needling.............what else would they be for?*


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## MechanicalDVR

OldMasterTech said:


> Agreed, hand tools and basic power tools are on you but consumables should be on the company. I also have a policy where my guys can bring me any broken or worn out tool and I'll replace it. I figure if you wore it out working for me it paid for itself a few times!


It depends on what you call basic powertools.

An employee supplying a cordless impact or cordless screwdriver is one thing but if you want more than that it should be on you.


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## bostonPedro

sbrn33 said:


> Did you get beat up if you happened to bring your own impact because you really liked it and it made your job easier?


So if it makes the job easier which in turn makes an employee more productive which in the end makes the employer more money then why the hell arent you supplying your employee with one? 

That tool in this case an impact drill costs about $100 maybe more or less depending on the brand will pay for itself and then some in increased production and YET you are so freaking blinded by cheapness that you only see the front end cost when what really matters is the backside profit being increased you will surely see due to increased production.


----------



## Switched

bostonPedro said:


> So if it makes the job easier which in turn makes an employee more productive which in the end makes the employer more money then why the hell arent you supplying your employee with one?
> 
> That tool in this case an impact drill costs about $100 maybe more or less depending on the brand will pay for itself and then some in increased production and YET you are so freaking blinded by cheapness that you only see the front end cost when what really matters is the backside profit being increased you will surely see do to increased production.


Boston... You seem an intelligent guy, not only that but like a hustler.

I like smart hard working hustlers.

But smart hard working hustlers also realize what the contractor actually has to go through, what their profitability is, what their risk is... an average employee, whether union or not, has the slightest clue.

That's okay, I didn't either prior to taking that risk and plunge. 

Educate yourself on the costs and risks that the employer must also go through, prior to spouting some rhetoric that has been "told" to you. Do the math...

Often a contractor, union or not, is barely getting by. Most owners will be fortunate to pay their bills, let alone retire at 55. So for an employee to spend the "$100" that you say would increase the whole bottom line and productivity, yet that employee should refuse lest he doesn't get what he demands/deserves... 

Realize the sacrifices that others make to put food on your own table, and then return the favor. When you give, you get.


----------



## bostonPedro

Switched said:


> Boston... You seem an intelligent guy, not only that but like a hustler.
> 
> I like smart hard working hustlers.
> 
> But smart hard working hustlers also realize what the contractor actually has to go through, what their profitability is, what their risk is... an average employee, whether union or not, has the slightest clue.
> 
> That's okay, I didn't either prior to taking that risk and plunge.
> 
> Educate yourself on the costs and risks that the employer must also go through, prior to spouting some rhetoric that has been "told" to you. Do the math...
> 
> Often a contractor, union or not, is barely getting by. Most owners will be fortunate to pay their bills, let alone retire at 55. So for an employee to spend the "$100" that you say would increase the whole bottom line and productivity, yet that employee should refuse lest he doesn't get what he demands/deserves...
> 
> Realize the sacrifices that others make to put food on your own table, and then return the favor. When you give, you get.



Trust me I get it. I make money when you make money because if you cant get work and make a profit then I dont work and thats the circle we live in. 

Heres an example of a smart businessman and you might not realize this but us employees like working for people like this. 
There is a residential tower boom in my area. Its done in Romex. The Klein dual stripper/cutters that do 14 and 12 wire are the perfect tool for this wire. No need to cut jacket with knife or tear sides with lineman or whatever method people use to strip Romex The Klein duals simply blow any method away and therefor increase production. Its 300 plus units and that Klein dual is not on the tool list so the employer buys about 15 to 20 of these and gives them to the guys wiring the units. Production goes up not only because the proper tool for the job was supplied but because guys and yes we talked about it appreciated the gesture of them saying here these are yours. I know they bought them to increase production but it also made employees recognize that "Hey we work for some smart people who get it" and this is the kind of place I want to work for as most employees do


----------



## Switched

bostonPedro said:


> Trust me I get it. I make money when you make money because if you cant get work then I dont work and thats the circle we live in.
> 
> Heres an example of a smart businessman and you might not realize this but us employees like working for people like this.
> Their is a residential tower boom in my area. Its done in Romex. The Klein dual stripper/cutters that do 14 and 12 wire are the perfect tool for this wire. No need to cut jacket with knife or tear sides with lineman or whatever method people use to strip Romex The Klein duals simply blow any method away and therefor increase production. Its 300 plus units and that Klein dual is not on the tool list so the employer buys about 15 to 20 of these and gives them to the guys wiring the units. Production goes up not only because the proper tool for the job was supplied but because guys and yes we talked about it appreciated the gesture of them saying here these are yours. I know they bought them to increase production but it also made employees recognize that "Hey we work some smart people who get it" and this is the kind of place I want to work for as most employees do.


So the employer went above and beyond what the contract required.

Then I have to ask what is wrong with Mech. supplying something that made him more productive on his projects, as he did a similar thing, going above and beyond what was required. 

Not trying to start a **** throwing contest, just curious how one side can do it but the other can't?

Shouldn't the contractor get chastised as he gave himself an unfair advantage by providing tools beyond the list?


----------



## Switchgear277

If I were a contractor and one of my guys braught in their own drill set and said listen I want my own drill 
So I’ll always have it , don’t have to
Look around for it and I can go as I please I would say ok cool thanks I appreciate it .

But I would feel embarrassed as a contractor to put power drills and bits on my tools list seems unprofessional and greedy as a pri business owner to make first year apprentices bring in their own drills .

It seems to be common knowledge 
Apprentices and jman bring in hand tools , contractors supply bits , power tools .

Although this really only gets enforced with union shops .

Every legit decent non union shop I have every herd of or wrked for supply’s power tools .


----------



## bostonPedro

Switched said:


> So the employer went above and beyond what the contract required.
> 
> Then I have to ask what is wrong with Mech. supplying something that made him more productive on his projects, as he did a similar thing, going above and beyond what was required.
> 
> Not trying to start a **** throwing contest, just curious how one side can do it but the other can't?
> 
> Shouldn't the contractor get chastised as he gave himself an unfair advantage by providing tools beyond the list?


The employer didnt go above and beyond he only supplied a tool not required by negotiation for members to buy much like bits,anchor spankers, hole saws, torque wrenches etc on the small side just as the employer would supply powers tools, punches and tuggers and triple nickels etc etc on the large side..
It is the employers responsibility to provide tools not on the list. Those tools make work more efficient which means better production which correlates to more profit for the employer. 
In my example it was a Klein dual stripper/cutter which increased production. 
Another example would be a shop investing in a tugger instead of having workers hand pull large wire pulls/ 

The contractor is under no obligation to buy some of the tools I listed nor is the contractor breaking any rules if he chooses to buy any tools. The contractor is simply investing in the company buy purchasing tools to make jobs run more efficient which as I stated before should correlate to more profit. The job of the employer is to find ways to increase profit and they often do so by investing in tools. 
It is not the responsibility of the employee to invest in tools not agreed upon so that said employee can work more efficient but it is my job as an employee to take the tools a company buys and to use them to work more efficient which in the end rewards their investment by increased profits

I will use a tugger as an example. A contractor can choose to invest in a tugger to make wires pulls easier and more efficient. A contractor can also choose not to buy a tugger and waste manpower and time hand pulling large wire pulls. That is totally up to the contractor as to whether they choose to invest in THEIR company. Now lets say a contractor buys a tugger and its on the job but I choose to to hand pull a large wire pull that is totally inefficient. I would expect that contractor to hand me my last check because as I said before it is my responsibility to take the tools a company invests in to work efficiently.


----------



## HackWork

Switched touched on 2 important issues.

1) Union guys always think that companies are making money hand over fist, when the truth is that the company owner is often making less than the union electrician he employs.

One of the mantras I always heard other union guys saying is how "Non-union companies charge the same thing as union companies, the owners just pocket more profit". It just shows how far off base the workers are. They don't know how it really is until they see it first hand from both sides. 

2) Most union guys don't believe in _give and take_. They want everything to benefit them. I didn't mind bringing my own power tool to a job because the past 3 jobs they let me go home early when I finished the job. I made enough money in that free time to pay for 4 of those tools. That's just an example that I am sure the blowhards will pick apart, but it shows how a good relationship in which both sides give a little is mutually beneficial.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Switched touched on 2 important issues.
> 
> 1) Union guys always think that companies are making money hand over fist, when the truth is that the company owner is often making less than the union electrician he employs.
> 
> One of the mantras I always heard other union guys saying is how "Non-union companies charge the same thing as union companies, the owners just pocket more profit". It just shows how far off base the workers are. They don't know how it really is until they see it first hand from both sides.
> 
> 2) Most union guys don't believe in _give and take_. They want everything to benefit them. I didn't mind bringing my own power tool to a job because the past 3 jobs they let me go home early when I finished the job. I made enough money in that free time to pay for 4 of those tools. That's just an example that I am sure the blowhards will pick apart, *but it shows how a good relationship in which both sides give a little is mutually beneficial.*


I had great working relationships with the companies I worked for and I didn't mind going above and beyond for them as it was a mutually beneficial thing.


----------



## eddy current

HackWork said:


> Switched touched on 2 important issues.
> 
> 1) Union guys always think that companies are making money hand over fist, when the truth is that the company owner is often making less than the union electrician he employs.
> 
> One of the mantras I always heard other union guys saying is how "Non-union companies charge the same thing as union companies, the owners just pocket more profit". It just shows how far off base the workers are. They don't know how it really is until they see it first hand from both sides.


Well here is my experience first hand from both sides. Of course this is not the same across the board, just my experience.

I worked for a small non union shop mainly service work, owner, son, me and two helpers. Had to supply my own tools and phone. Left the truck at the shop.

We charged $100 to $130 an hour for an electrician. I was payed straight pay, no benefits, two weeks vacation. ( I was an apprentice, worked alone in a company owned truck, they charged me out as an electrician)

One year later, same city,

I worked for a large union shop in the service department. Service manager and 5 licenced electricians and one apprentice (me) all on company owned trucks. Also the company went from 30 to over 100 construction apprentices and electricians, depending on how many big jobs they had going on.

Service department charged $85 to $110 an hour for a licenced guy. All tools supplied, phone, took the truck home, gas card. The wage difference was 4$ more an hour for a licenced guy plus benefits, 10% vacation pay. 

Both union and non union company owners made way more than any employee they had.


----------



## sbrn33

Eddy they also took waaay more risk. Plus you may want to look into something they call "overhead".


----------



## sbrn33

MechanicalDVR said:


> I had great working relationships with the companies I worked for and I didn't mind going above and beyond for them as it was a mutually beneficial thing.


How many times did you get beat up for taking in your own impact?


----------



## HackWork

eddy current said:


> Well here is my experience first hand


That's all it is... What you experienced in the two situations you mentioned.

Nothing you posted represents how it is across the board. Certainly not here in America.


----------



## Bird dog

sbrn33 said:


> Eddy they also took waaay more risk. Plus you may want to look into something they call "overhead".


In the US 90% of all new businesses go out of business in the first five years.


----------



## eddy current

sbrn33 said:


> Eddy they also took waaay more risk. Plus you may want to look into something they call "overhead".


Overhead.

Non union company worked out of their house. Wife did the books. 

Union had an office downtown with 9 people working there, two truck drivers and a warehouse.

Again I know this is not the same across the board, just my experience.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

sbrn33 said:


> How many times did you get beat up for taking in your own impact?


Never happened.

But on the other end of the spectrum once I was in the position of doing control work I was ALWAYS paid over scale and was given other benefits that weren't in the contractual agreement.


----------



## eddy current

HackWork said:


> That's all it is... What you experienced in the two situations you mentioned.
> 
> Nothing you posted represents how it is across the board. Certainly not here in America.


???? Canada IS in America. Lol JK

And like I said, not the same across the board for sure.


----------



## eddy current

MechanicalDVR said:


> Never happened.
> 
> But on the other end of the spectrum once I was in the position of doing control work I was ALWAYS paid over scale and was given other benefits that weren't in the contractual agreement.


I had my own little 12volt impact when working at the big union shop but I mainly worked alone. It was for my own convenience. I left it in the truck when service was slow and had to go to big construction sites because I was asked to do so by the steward.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

sbrn33 said:


> How many times did you get beat up for taking in your own impact?


I thought about this after I posted my reply to you and wanted to mention this.

While working for my Uncle (non Union company) as a youngster after several summers there I brought in a Yankee screwdriver. Well you would have thought I was Satan to hear the way the old guys rode me about my wanting to show them up and how I would ruin plates when the tip slipped out of a screw head or stab something or myself. All straight slotted screw heads back then.

Keep in mind these were all the same guys that gave me a hard time constantly about being the owner's nephew and being called little prince and all the other insults.

Nothing ever really came of it except the fact I always felt I had to be perfect and never do anything wrong or screw up or I'd never live it down.

Never told my Uncle anything that went on out on jobs.

When those same guys found out I was union years later not one had a good word to say, still thinking I was trying to show them up making big bucks and getting better benefits. When I was running a job after that they all told me I was lying..... 

Some guys are just morons all the time!


----------



## MechanicalDVR

eddy current said:


> I had my own little 12volt impact when working at the big union shop but I mainly worked alone. It was for my own convenience. I left it in the truck when service was slow and had to go to big construction sites because I was asked to do so by the steward.


I got the 10.8 volt Bosch impact when they first came out and kept it in my bag all the time. Worked service and controls so I was normally alone even if the company had other guys on the same job.


----------



## sbrn33

MechanicalDVR said:


> I got the 10.8 volt Bosch impact when they first came out and kept it in my bag all the time. Worked service and controls so I was normally alone even if the company had other guys on the same job.


I think you are lying to us. Bostonpedro made it clear that you would get your ass beat down if you brought an impact on to a union job.


----------



## eddy current

I’ve-worked for union shops where tools were scarce and crap, many guys brought their own tools just out of frustration. No one said chit.

I’ve also worked for union shops where the steward called “tool box checks”. Made me and others remove tools from our boxes and leave them in our cars.

Both of those shops were in the same city, same local.


----------



## sbrn33

eddy current said:


> I’ve-worked for union shops where tools were scarce and crap, many guys brought their own tools just out of frustration. No one said chit.
> 
> I’ve also worked for union shops where the steward called “tool box checks”. Made me and others remove tools from our boxes and leave them in our cars.
> 
> Both of those shops were in the same city, same local.


Playing cards are OK though right?


----------



## Lone Crapshooter

It's a brave new world out there. I am sure our forfathers had similar discussions about new tools 50 or 60 years ago. Maybe the impact might be employed supplied on a individual basis. As far as consumables go the company should always supply them or at least replacements.


----------



## eddy current

sbrn33 said:


> Playing cards are OK though right?


Nope. Have you ever worked in the union?


----------



## sbrn33

eddy current said:


> Nope. Have you ever worked in the union?


Nope, I have worked with them on the stuff they couldn't do at the time. 20 of them sat on the roof playing cards on an RTU for weeks at a time. This was not on more than 1 or 2 jobs. Main reason I don't put up with their uppity bull****. Not a one of them wanted to learn a thing, just there for a paycheck. You guys like to act all high and mighty but when it comes right down to it you need 30 guys on a job that should need 10. 
Sorry truth can hurt sometimes.


----------



## eddy current

sbrn33 said:


> Nope, I have worked with them on the stuff they couldn't do at the time. 20 of them sat on the roof playing cards on an RTU for weeks at a time. This was not on more than 1 or 2 jobs. Main reason I don't put up with their uppity bull****. Not a one of them wanted to learn a thing, just there for a paycheck. You guys like to act all high and mighty but when it comes right down to it you need 30 guys on a job that should need 10.
> Sorry truth can hurt sometimes.


I have worked in non union and can say the same for them. 

Judging based on a few guys or jobs is not accurate to how it works everywhere.

Your post comes across as if you are high and mighty.


----------



## sbrn33

eddy current said:


> I have worked in non union and can say the same for them.
> 
> Judging based on a few guys or jobs is not accurate to how it works everywhere.
> 
> *Your post comes across as if you are high and mighty.*


Why should it not. I am special.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

sbrn33 said:


> I think you are lying to us. Bostonpedro made it clear that you would get your ass beat down if you brought an impact on to a union job.


I'm a big guy with a strong Sicilian last name from a large family that had union local founding members working in NJ and NY nobody wants any part of that kind of problem.


----------



## splatz

eddy current said:


> Overhead.
> 
> Non union company worked out of their house. Wife did the books.
> 
> Union had an office downtown with 9 people working there, two truck drivers and a warehouse.
> 
> Again I know this is not the same across the board, just my experience.


eddy, no offense, just some FYI. 

In another post you mention that the owners made way more than anyone working there. I can tell you for certain that there are many companies where all the employees ASSUME the owners are always making way more than them, but unless you did their taxes, you don't really know. In construction and retail and many other businesses in a bad year owners can make ZIP and work their nuts off to stay open and make $0. Now granted they may make a home run another year, or they may lose everything including their retirement savings if they go bust. 

In this post you're implying that just because they had more employees and rent, the union shop had higher overhead. That's not necessarily true. 

Most important thing the union shop was you say 30-130 men on the job, the non-union shop was five. The economy of scale is a huge factor here. Overhead as a percentage of total revenue is generally much lower for larger companies. 

Now of course I haven't seen their books either, it may very well be true that the small non-union shop you worked in did have lower overhead per person and was more profitable than the union shop, it's possible the union shop barely breaks even and the little shop is a cash cow, I don't know. My point is that unless you have the entire picture there's a danger of jumping to wrong conclusions.


----------



## HackWork

Eddy is doing the same thing that I mentioned seeing union guys always do, making assumptions about how much the owner is making.

I've told this story before, how the project manager would always drive up to the job every week in his BMW and have an attitude with me. For the year that I dealt with him he always had a chip on his shoulder until one day he came clean. He was making $80K and had ok benefits and was pissed because every electrician on that job, who he considered underneath him, was making $100K with another $60K+ in benefits. He told me that even the owner, who was his uncle, barely made that much money and had worse benefits.

Now if you asked any electrician on that job, they would tell you how the owner was a millionaire.


----------



## bostonPedro

HackWork said:


> Eddy is doing the same thing that I mentioned seeing union guys always do, making assumptions about how much the owner is making.
> 
> I've told this story before, how the project manager would always drive up to the job every week in his BMW and have an attitude with me. For the year that I dealt with him he always had a chip on his shoulder until one day he came clean. He was making $80K and had ok benefits and was pissed because every electrician on that job, who he considered underneath him, was making $100K with another $60K+ in benefits. He told me that even the owner, who was his uncle, barely made that much money and had worse benefits.
> 
> Now if you asked any electrician on that job, they would tell you how the owner was a millionaire.


Non union electricians have that same thought process also so its not a union issue at all. Its a worker issue based on perception whether right or wrong and after all the baloney workers are fed its a perception that will never go away. I can't tell you how many times I have worked somewhere and you hear that the office is saying that they didnt make a profit and lost money on a job. So you then ask someone who has worked there for a long time and they tell you that they have been saying that for a decade and YET they are mysteriously still in business. 
Some struggle some don't and thats life. 
Some businesses truly struggle just as some workers truly struggle and if they dont get their act together then they should move on and do something else.
Whats true for the worker is also true for the owner. Sometimes the issue is YOU


----------



## HackWork

bostonPedro said:


> Non union electricians have that same thought process also so its not a union issue at all.


 Agreed.



> I can't tell you how many times I have worked somewhere and you hear that the office is saying that they didnt make a profit and lost money on a job.


I always laughed at that. I really don't give a crap. It's like a customer telling me their budget. I don't care, it's meaningless to me. I'm not going to change a single thing due to your own financial issues. 

When they would say "we're losing money" it wouldn't make me work harder, it would make me think about moving to a more stable company that didn't act petty and try t pin their financial problems on the workers.


----------



## eddy current

splatz said:


> eddy, no offense, just some FYI.
> 
> In another post you mention that the owners made way more than anyone working there. I can tell you for certain that there are many companies where all the employees ASSUME the owners are always making way more than them, but unless you did their taxes, you don't really know. In construction and retail and many other businesses in a bad year owners can make ZIP and work their nuts off to stay open and make $0. Now granted they may make a home run another year, or they may lose everything including their retirement savings if they go bust.
> 
> In this post you're implying that just because they had more employees and rent, the union shop had higher overhead. That's not necessarily true.
> 
> Most important thing the union shop was you say 30-130 men on the job, the non-union shop was five. The economy of scale is a huge factor here. Overhead as a percentage of total revenue is generally much lower for larger companies.
> 
> Now of course I haven't seen their books either, it may very well be true that the small non-union shop you worked in did have lower overhead per person and was more profitable than the union shop, it's possible the union shop barely breaks even and the little shop is a cash cow, I don't know. My point is that unless you have the entire picture there's a danger of jumping to wrong conclusions.


I still am in contact with both of those owners and their sons. I do know for a fact they both make more than any of their employees.

That is not true for all employers, I know that, but in this situation and the two examples I gave it is.


----------



## HackWork

eddy current said:


> I still am in contact with both of those owners and their sons. I do know for a fact they both make more than any of their employees.


No one contests that 2 electrical contractors make more than their employees.


----------



## OldMasterTech

MechanicalDVR said:


> It depends on what you call basic powertools.
> 
> An employee supplying a cordless impact or cordless screwdriver is one thing but if you want more than that it should be on you.


Guys are required to own drill/driver but all other power tools are on me. Some guys prefer to provide their own larger tools in which case I (we) will maintain/replace them from wear, but not theft. You learn the game when you reach this age....

We have an unrelated indoor production line where you must provide hand tools and air drill/driver ($50 at HD). This was a recent change and I am amazed how the tools no longer get stolen or broken! Divine intervention perhaps!


----------



## MechanicalDVR

OldMasterTech said:


> Guys are required to own drill/driver but all other power tools are on me. Some guys prefer to provide their own larger tools in which case I (we) will maintain/replace them from wear, but not theft. You learn the game when you reach this age....
> 
> We have an unrelated indoor production line where you must provide hand tools and air drill/driver ($50 at HD). This was a recent change and I am amazed how the tools no longer get stolen or broken! Divine intervention perhaps!


That doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

Yeah funny how ownership of the tools you work with adds a different perspective to things.


----------



## sburton224

sbrn33 said:


> Nope, I have worked with them on the stuff they couldn't do at the time. 20 of them sat on the roof playing cards on an RTU for weeks at a time. This was not on more than 1 or 2 jobs. Main reason I don't put up with their uppity bull****. Not a one of them wanted to learn a thing, just there for a paycheck. You guys like to act all high and mighty but when it comes right down to it you need 30 guys on a job that should need 10.
> Sorry truth can hurt sometimes.


C'mon, now I know you are exaggerating things...we all know union guys wouldn't be playing cards on a roof all day long for weeks. Its out in the elements and weather, they'd be indoors somewhere where they have heat and AC! :wink:


----------



## MechanicalDVR

sburton224 said:


> C'mon, now I know you are exaggerating things...we all know union guys wouldn't be playing cards on a roof all day long for weeks. Its out in the elements and weather, they'd be indoors somewhere where they have heat and AC! :wink:


Not always, some of us prefer fresh air!


----------



## joebanana

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not always, some of us prefer fresh air!


Where are all these card games I've been missing out on? I've checked the rooftops, and those guys must be good at hiding.
I have worked non-union jobs where people were hiding their beer in closets, and the foreman carried his beer in his nail bag.
One got a DUI on his way home from work.
Don't see that on union jobs.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

joebanana said:


> Where are all these card games I've been missing out on? I've checked the rooftops, and those guys must be good at hiding.
> I have worked non-union jobs where people were hiding their beer in closets, and the foreman carried his beer in his nail bag.
> One got a DUI on his way home from work.
> Don't see that on union jobs.


Many of the guys from one of the NJ pocos that I did a lot of work with often had coolers of beer on the back of their trucks. 

Not only were they union but at the time my cousin was their local president.


----------



## joebanana

MechanicalDVR said:


> Many of the guys from one of the NJ pocos that I did a lot of work with often had coolers of beer on the back of their trucks.
> 
> Not only were they union but at the time my cousin was their local president.


Were they getting plastered on the job? Or, have rooftop card games?
I've done dozens of tilt-up warehouse projects, TI's, and from underground to the slab and up, and never saw anybody playing cards.
Spent weeks on the roof of the Amazon "fulfillment center" with close to 100 rooftop A/C units, and saw not one card game.


----------



## MechanicalDVR

joebanana said:


> Were they getting plastered on the job? Or, have rooftop card games?
> I've done dozens of tilt-up warehouse projects, TI's, and from underground to the slab and up, and never saw anybody playing cards.
> Spent weeks on the roof of the Amazon "fulfillment center" with close to 100 rooftop A/C units, and saw not one card game.


I don't want to say too much but I know some of them have since gone to AA.

As for card games, I have never seen that occur at all outside of a picket line tent and I do mean from a very long way back until I retired in 2010.


----------



## lighterup

I recall , when I was a kid , there was a
local Barber shop where I lived. It had a rear 
parking lot behind the building and behind
the parking lot was woods & a railroad track.

Every day from 11:30 am till bout 1:30 - 2:00 
pm you would see about 6 mailmen jeeps
parked back there .

The Barber shop let all those mail men sit
in a back room and play cards & drink until
they had to go back to the post office and
clock out.

This was when and where I first had aspirations
of working for the post office!:vs_laugh:

My teachers would ask..."billy , what do you 
want to do when you grow up?"...to which
I would reply .."I wanna be a mail man and 
drink & play cards":vs_laugh::vs_laugh::thumbsup:


----------



## glen1971

When I was an apprentice my journeyman told me that if I needed to borrow one of his tools I could do it once, then after that I was expected to have it, since I obviously needed it. There is always that group of tools that you use once every 5 years, then put it away til the next time. Good to have, and I doubt they appear on any company's tool list..


----------



## UncleBill

joebanana said:


> That's the difference between union, and non-union. Union shops provide all power tools, bits, tape, gloves, PPE, hard hats, etc. non-union shops don't provide squat. Not even temp lighting, or ex-cords.
> As a side note to the OP, a good flashlight is a must.



Just for fun lets look at some called an Experience Modification Rating, or more readily, E-Mod. It doesn't sound like much but you'd be surprised just how vital it is when it comes to the bid process. You see, no matter the company, he E-Mod determines things like how safety oriented you are, whether you are irresponsible when it comes to employee safety. It gives you a rating that affects things like bonding/insurance and can make or break any EC. 

I worked 22 years with what was once the largest EC in the Southwest and the year they got an E-Mod rating of .83, they couldn't buy work. There had been too many reportable injuries that year and it almost broke them.

Your argument that Non-Union EC's don't supply the proper PPE is ridiculous and untrue simply because insuring that your employees are doing their best through training and have access to the right protective gear is crucial to any company getting jobs and making money. To make sure that PPE is optimal the company is going to supply the gloves, hardhat, safety glasses to make sure you have access to the proper protection, because if/when an employee is hurt and it is reportable one determining factor for root causality will be PPE and whether or not they had access to it. No company is going to chance a law suit either.

You might also be surprised to know that hardhats and gloves *are* PPE, unless you already knew that and was just trying to make it look like you had more things to your 'list' than you did.


Temporary Lighting is something else that you are wrong about because if an employee is hurt because of bad/no lighting the company is at fault and open to a lawsuit. It's also something that may or may not be included in the bid. When that happens the EC usually supplies lights for employees. 

Before cordless drills we used electric drills or tools like Yankee screwdrivers, and most companies issued extension cords, but some didn't, either way most companies consider ex-cords to be a throwaway item and buy them as needed without regard as part of their waste allowance. 

The company I worked for (22 years) gave you a tool list that included things like having the ability to knock-out up to 1 1/4", some drill bits, but that meant you show up with a uni or step bit and they replaced it as it worn down. They also issued you a cordless drill that was yours after a year. If you lost it you had to replace it out of pocket but that was because every now and then someone walked off with one, otherwise it was free. I have never been expected to supply my own tape or sharpie or even water.


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## joebanana

UncleBill said:


> Just for fun lets look at some called an Experience Modification Rating, or more readily, E-Mod. It doesn't sound like much but you'd be surprised just how vital it is when it comes to the bid process. You see, no matter the company, he E-Mod determines things like how safety oriented you are, whether you are irresponsible when it comes to employee safety. It gives you a rating that affects things like bonding/insurance and can make or break any EC.
> 
> I worked 22 years with what was once the largest EC in the Southwest and the year they got an E-Mod rating of .83, they couldn't buy work. There had been too many reportable injuries that year and it almost broke them.
> 
> Your argument that Non-Union EC's don't supply the proper PPE is ridiculous and untrue simply because insuring that your employees are doing their best through training and have access to the right protective gear is crucial to any company getting jobs and making money. To make sure that PPE is optimal the company is going to supply the gloves, hardhat, safety glasses to make sure you have access to the proper protection, because if/when an employee is hurt and it is reportable one determining factor for root causality will be PPE and whether or not they had access to it. No company is going to chance a law suit either.
> 
> You might also be surprised to know that hardhats and gloves *are* PPE, unless you already knew that and was just trying to make it look like you had more things to your 'list' than you did.
> 
> 
> Temporary Lighting is something else that you are wrong about because if an employee is hurt because of bad/no lighting the company is at fault and open to a lawsuit. It's also something that may or may not be included in the bid. When that happens the EC usually supplies lights for employees.
> 
> Before cordless drills we used electric drills or tools like Yankee screwdrivers, and most companies issued extension cords, but some didn't, either way most companies consider ex-cords to be a throwaway item and buy them as needed without regard as part of their waste allowance.
> 
> The company I worked for (22 years) gave you a tool list that included things like having the ability to knock-out up to 1 1/4", some drill bits, but that meant you show up with a uni or step bit and they replaced it as it worn down. They also issued you a cordless drill that was yours after a year. If you lost it you had to replace it out of pocket but that was because every now and then someone walked off with one, otherwise it was free. I have never been expected to supply my own tape or sharpie or even water.


So, you worked for one contractor for 22 years. And that gives you the insight of how all other non-union contractors run their operations?
I've worked for at least 12 non-union contractors over my 42 years in the trade, and QUIT at least 10 of them. NONE of them provided "Sharpies" EVER. Some, however did provide the cheapest Chinese tape available (99 cents for a stack of 10) Gloves, I've always provided.
Then I went union. You'd be surprised at the difference. The pay is way better too. What kind of bene's do you get? Did they give you a truck?


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## brian john

SPEAKING FOR MY AREA.

Large shops, Union or Open Shop are tight and getting tighter when it comes to safety, PPE is furnished and MUST be paid for by the employer per OSHA.

Small shops are more likely to skimp on following safety rules due to the massive requirements of OSHA. The cost to a small shop is seen as over the top. And this goes for Union and Open Shop.


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## bostonPedro

brian john said:


> SPEAKING FOR MY AREA.
> 
> Large shops, Union or Open Shop are tight and getting tighter when it comes to safety, PPE is furnished and MUST be paid for by the employer per OSHA.
> 
> Small shops are more likely to skimp on following safety rules due to the massive requirements of OSHA. The cost to a small shop is seen as over the top. And this goes for Union and Open Shop.



Curious about the latter portion.
"Small shops are more likely to skimp on following safety rules due to the massive requirements of OSHA. The cost to a small shop is seen as over the top. And this goes for Union and Open Shop"


What safety rules are they skimping on? Not interested in residential contractors because its a different animal as far as safety is concerned but more about commercial projects that ECs do.


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## MechanicalDVR

joebanana said:


> So, you worked for one contractor for 22 years. And that gives you the insight of how all other non-union contractors run their operations?
> I've worked for at least 12 non-union contractors over my 42 years in the trade, and QUIT at least 10 of them. NONE of them provided "Sharpies" EVER. Some, however did provide the cheapest Chinese tape available (99 cents for a stack of 10) Gloves, I've always provided.
> Then I went union. *You'd be surprised at the difference.* The pay is way better too. What kind of bene's do you get? Did they give you a truck?


Nobody with a fraction of your experience with both types of contractors would be surprised at the difference.

Even if one of the non union companies was a family business, the differences tend to be night and day.


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## MechanicalDVR

brian john said:


> SPEAKING FOR MY AREA.
> 
> Large shops, Union or Open Shop are tight and getting tighter when it comes to safety, PPE is furnished and MUST be paid for by the employer per OSHA.
> 
> *Yeah man, no one wants a liability law suit where they are in the wrong.*
> 
> 
> Small shops are more likely to skimp on following safety rules due to the massive requirements of OSHA. The cost to a small shop is seen as over the top. And this goes for Union and Open Shop.



Not always just the requirement costs as the costs involved in training employees as well.


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## MechanicalDVR

bostonPedro said:


> Curious about the latter portion.
> "Small shops are more likely to skimp on following safety rules due to the massive requirements of OSHA. The cost to a small shop is seen as over the top. And this goes for Union and Open Shop"
> 
> 
> What safety rules are they skimping on? Not interested in residential contractors because its a different animal as far as safety is concerned but more about commercial projects that ECs do.


One of the most common things skipped over is probably the requirements for flash suits/gear and fall protection for step ladders.


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## bostonPedro

MechanicalDVR said:


> One of the most common things skipped over is probably the requirements for flash suits/gear and fall protection for step ladders.


Flash suits I can see. Everyone here union or non union ignores the ladder rules...more specifically tying off when on an 8 foot ladder. Only see that when working near an outer edge of an open building, open elevator shaft or other areas where a fall would more than likely mean death


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## MechanicalDVR

bostonPedro said:


> Flash suits I can see. Everyone here union or non union ignores the ladder rules...more specifically tying off when on an 8 foot ladder. Only see that when working near an outer edge of an open building, open elevator shaft or other areas where a fall would more than likely mean death


So you could have answered your own question. :thumbsup:


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## bostonPedro

MechanicalDVR said:


> So you could have answered your own question. :thumbsup:



:vs_laugh:


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## ElectricMon

bostonPedro said:


> Flash suits I can see. Everyone here union or non union ignores the ladder rules...more specifically tying off when on an 8 foot ladder. Only see that when working near an outer edge of an open building, open elevator shaft or other areas where a fall would more than likely mean death


I dont think the tying off over 6 ft on a portable ladder is osha i always thought that was an extra added by insurance and safety guys.


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## UncleBill

joebanana said:


> So, you worked for one contractor for 22 years. And that gives you the insight of how all other non-union contractors run their operations?
> I've worked for at least 12 non-union contractors over my 42 years in the trade, and QUIT at least 10 of them. NONE of them provided "Sharpies" EVER. Some, however did provide the cheapest Chinese tape available (99 cents for a stack of 10) Gloves, I've always provided.
> Then I went union. You'd be surprised at the difference. The pay is way better too. What kind of bene's do you get? Did they give you a truck?


I started in the trade 45 years ago, summer of 1973, with a small non-union company in Orange County, CA then two more before leaving Cal in 1979, so an average two years each. Then I worked in Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona, all small and family owned. I also worked on projects for several large Regional and National companies. I also might add I have worked on jobs where there was also a Union EC and jobs where a Non-Union company was using union labor due to the size of the project and a lack of man-power.

So, I might have some idea. 

You picked Sharpies to counterpoint with? Hmm? You realize I was talking about the company I worked at for 22 years, right? Yeah, not every company does that, supplies Sharpies but, again, on the subject of PPE, with the issue of liabilities falling on them and the way it affects their E-Mod, don't you think you'd want to make sure every chance of preventing an injury was seen to? You actually believe that there are EC's out there who won't spend $200 dollars to prevent a $200,000 lawsuit?


I have several 401k's, two ESOP's, paid insurance, paid Holidays with a floater day for times like when a holiday falls on a Tuesday and I want a 4 day weekend, 3 sick days paid, and two weeks paid vacation, Quarterly bonuses, company truck (with gas card)... and work shirts.

As to my pay, lets just say I don't make less than my Union equivalent.


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## MechanicalDVR

UncleBill said:


> I started in the trade 45 years ago, summer of 1973, with a small non-union company in Orange County, CA then two more before leaving Cal in 1979, so an average two years each. Then I worked in Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona, all small and family owned. I also worked on projects for several large Regional and National companies. I also might add I have worked on jobs where there was also a Union EC and jobs where a Non-Union company was using union labor due to the size of the project and a lack of man-power.
> 
> So, I might have some idea.
> 
> You picked Sharpies to counterpoint with? Hmm? You realize I was talking about the company I worked at for 22 years, right? Yeah, not every company does that, supplies Sharpies but, again, on the subject of PPE, with the issue of liabilities falling on them and the way it affects their E-Mod, don't you think you'd want to make sure every chance of preventing an injury was seen to? You actually believe that there are EC's out there who won't spend $200 dollars to prevent a $200,000 lawsuit?
> 
> 
> I have several 401k's, two ESOP's, paid insurance, paid Holidays with a floater day for times like when a holiday falls on a Tuesday and I want a 4 day weekend, 3 sick days paid, and two weeks paid vacation, Quarterly bonuses, company truck (with gas card)... and work shirts.
> 
> As to my pay, lets just say I don't make less than my Union equivalent.


Let's be honest here, in general terms the non union companies that pay close to union scale and offer paid benefits that come close to union levels are very far and few between. 

I have worked both sides of the fence and have relatives that currently own businesses on both sides as well. One of the non union relatives is a good employer and pays well and offers a decent benefits package, but that is only one of several in the family.

Working for other non union relatives over the years I was treated just as badly as their other employees and felt the need to leave for a union shop.

For every non union company that pays well and treats their employees like assets their is a union company that pays over scale and gives a benefits package better than the collective bargaining agreement. 

Just an FYI


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## UncleBill

MechanicalDVR said:


> Let's be honest here, in general terms the non union companies that pay close to union scale and offer paid benefits that come close to union levels are very far and few between.
> 
> I have worked both sides of the fence and have relatives that currently own businesses on both sides as well. One of the non union relatives is a good employer and pays well and offers a decent benefits package, but that is only one of several in the family.
> 
> Working for other non union relatives over the years I was treated just as badly as their other employees and felt the need to leave for a union shop.
> 
> For every non union company that pays well and treats their employees like assets their is a union company that pays over scale and gives a benefits package better than the collective bargaining agreement.
> 
> Just an FYI



I won't dispute that there are good companies on both sides out there, or equally bad ones. That's realistic. But in today's climate companies are hedging their bets by making sure their assets, employees included, are protected against lawsuits. 

Do I like the Union? Not particularly, mostly from experiences like being 302 on the books, then 311, then 317. But I still say it works for some people so let them have it.


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