# I'm out of ideas?? Any thoughts?



## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

I've been a home service type electrician for almost 12 years now. I've been in business on my own for 4 years and I've finally been stumped! I have a homeowner who says that she loses power in her bedroom on a fairly regular basis. When I show up to troubleshoot, everything tests out fine. The breaker has been ruled out because other rooms on the same circuit remain on while her bedroom goes dark. I've checked all of the devices in the other rooms on the circuit and everything tests out fine and the connections are all good. I left her with a woody over the weekend and she said when the power went out it went off (open hot). The power always goes off in the middle of the night (from 11pm to 5am) and comes back on as the day progresses. Short of her being insane, what could it possibly be?? I'm stumped.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

What kind of "Woody" did you leave her with ? 

Checked everything on that circuit for sure right ? Change the CB just to rule that out. Sounds like either the stabs in the receptacles come loose, or CB


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

When you test, plug a load like a hair dryer or heater into the same duplex and time that you plug your meter into.

This will help show a loose connection which if I had to guess will be found in a back stabbed device.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

"Woody" in NC is your standard 3 light plug in tester. I was thinking the same thing about the back stabbed wires. I think I tested everything. Maybe it's time to tear the rest of the house apart. Usually when this type of thing happens it is the back stabbed outlets or broken connections. However, once the power goes out, it usually stays out or at least causes some flickering of lights or something. The fact that it happens at the same time and restores at the same time had me thinking that it was a faulty transformer on a charger or computer block. Now that i know it's open hot though I'm beginning to get frazzled.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Why 11:00am - 5:30am ? somethings sounds like Bs. What is she/he doing up ? I once had a crazy lady, telling me she wanted a rewire, because the wires in the walls were too close to her bed, and the magnetic field was messing with her head ?


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> When you test, plug a load like a hair dryer or heater into the same duplex and time that you plug your meter into.
> 
> This will help show a loose connection which if I had to guess will be found in a back stabbed device.



We had lights on while we were testing and couldn't find any loose connections. I like the idea of an audible device to indicate power though. I think maybe we're missing an outlet or switch or junction box in a place that seems out of place. Any thought on the regularity of the times that it goes out and comes back on????


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pitapacket said:


> "Woody" in NC is your standard 3 light plug in tester.


The problem with that tester is that it takes very little voltage to light the LEDs.

If you have a really bad connection the LEDs could light but when you try to run a really load off the circuit it goes dead.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

As you probably know, you have to go to the ones that are working. Look for those recepts in hard to find places, like for alarm systems in closets, or up on a high pot shelf somewhere.

Change the CB out also !


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

dronai said:


> Why 11:00am - 5:30am ? somethings sounds like Bs. What is she/he doing up ? I once had a crazy lady, telling me she wanted a rewire, because the wires in the walls were too close to her bed, and the magnetic field was messing with her head ?


This is what I'm thinking. Could there be more to the story that she's not telling me? I've also known crazy ladies like this. We've been thinking that she's making this up for attention. The power is always magically restored when we show up. I told her I may have to spend the night, but she just laughed. What if I pretend to fix it? Do you think that might work?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

pitapacket said:


> We had lights on while we were testing and couldn't find any loose connections. I like the idea of an audible device to indicate power though.


The noise could be helpful but I mentioned a hair dryer as they often draw 1200 to 1500 watts which loads the circuit down much better than a 60 watt lamp.


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

I have had the jumper between screws break on rec a few times

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The problem with that tester is that it takes very little voltage to light the LEDs.
> 
> If you have a really bad connection the LEDs could light but when you try to run a really load off the circuit it goes dead.


We did test with conventional meters. I thought this may be a little out of her comfort zone though when the power goes out so I dumbed it down the best I could. I'd love her to troubleshoot when it goes out, but it's always back on when I get there.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> The noise could be helpful but I mentioned a hair dryer as they often draw 1200 to 1500 watts which loads the circuit down much better than a 60 watt lamp.



Sure. The breaker is holding fine though and only her master bed suite goes dead. There's no dimming or flickering of lights. It magically goes out and magically comes back on. I replaced the circuit breaker early on but the remainder of the circuit remains live while her power goes out. That's why I checked "all" of the devices on the circuit.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

JmanAllen said:


> I have had the jumper between screws break on rec a few times
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


I've seen that as well. If the power went out and stayed out, I'd be right with you. I think her room may be haunted.


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

It's tied to a switched outlet somewhere.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Face it, if she single, she's hunting. Tell her to call you back when it is out, so you can test it. And maybe use the "Woody"


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

dronai said:


> Why 11:00am - 5:30am...?


 That's what I want to know. And how is she finding it? Most people would be asleep.

Assuming she's sane, she's almost certainly doing something that's causing this to happen that regularly.

And the other side of this is: When I did maintenance I had a lady raise holy hell about her furnace being broken. After enough trips to examine her perfectly functional furnace, I screwed a dummy thermostat to the sheetrock in her room. Told her to adjust it whenever she got cold.

She never bothered me again. Food for thought.

-John


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

The head board of the bed is smashing the plug of a cracked receptacle.

Load it up as said, or use a meggar on the circuit.

It might also be a short on a metal hvac trunk, heat goes off at night and makes circuit back off comes back in the morning, IE just enough to expand and contract on a open hot wire. Cure; turn on heat and if all metal a tic-tester will sing at grill. (old houses are usually all metal)


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

just some ideas

-condo, apartment, duplex, or single family home (switches/timers from other areas controlling the ckt) ?

-how long has she lived there (does the br light turn off the plug and she doesn't know that) ?

-recently divorced/spiteful exspouse ?

-dead spouse that was handyman ? (look for hidden timers that turned things off at night)

-power company power saver, water heater timer, appliance timer that's wired wrong or bootlegged into that ckt ?

-does she have 240 at the main ? (ckt backfed thru water heater when its on cause she's missing a leg?)

-it is possible some harry wired a crazy 3 leg or used the neutral on a 3 leg in an adjacent room, and some crazy hallway or closet switch is turning it off. If you really want to trouble shoot it, tell her if it goes off not to touch anything at all and call you to make a service call. It would be nice if she kept a log - what time it went off and what was the last switch or electrical item she touched, etc, to help you figure it out.

-next time it goes out if you still can't figure it out:
a) find everything that is fed on that circuit, trace wiring if possible
b) turn off everything but the breaker feeding that, check to see if there is another breaker in the panel that is backfed, trace everything out on that circuit

-swap the circuit it's fed onto another breaker, and lock it out. don't tell her the locked out breaker is the one feeding it, tell her it's feeding something else but you want to check it. put tape on the breaker that it was fed on and tell her not to touch the breakers. tell her to take a pic of the woody when it goes out. see if she messes with the taped breaker. if she's a nut case the locked out breaker will drive her nuts and/or she'll find a new problem, which may or may not be real since you've swapped the ckt.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Did you check for an outside receptacle that is tapped into that cuircuit..

Sometimes the obvious gets missed.. it happens..


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

pitapacket said:


> "Woody" in NC is your standard 3 light plug in tester. I was thinking the same thing about the back stabbed wires. I think I tested everything. Maybe it's time to tear the rest of the house apart. Usually when this type of thing happens it is the back stabbed outlets or broken connections. However, once the power goes out, it usually stays out or at least causes some flickering of lights or something. The fact that it happens at the same time and restores at the same time had me thinking that it was a faulty transformer on a charger or computer block. Now that i know it's open hot though I'm beginning to get frazzled.


Whenever I have a similar problem and back stabbed receptacles I always tear them out and wrap the around the screws. Most cases you fix the problem. I did have one with a gfi in the attic feeding the bedrooms and at times not working. I saw you the other week at that new building near HT on Rea. Were you the EC?


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Are you sure that there is not a switched outlet in there some where and she is turning lamp or what ever on and off at switch point? and she gets up and is turning a lamp on and off that has no power? wtf:laughing:


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

RGH said:


> Are you sure that there is not a switched outlet in there some where and she is turning lamp or what ever on and off at switch point? and she gets up and is turning a lamp on and off that has no power? wtf:laughing:


I wish I had a dollar for every time a customer has no clue they have switched receptacles.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks all for all the replies! We've been thinking there may be a timer somewhere. We actually did think that maybe the heat had something to do with it as it seems to go off at night. We ran the heat for awhile and nothing happened. I'm leaning towards the usual suspects (aka poorly wired(as if there's another way to do it) back stabbed outlets). We took apart all devices that appeared to be on the circuit, but it looks like we need to throw a tone on the circuit and see if there's another device in an odd place that could be causing the problem. She knows it goes off between 11 - 5:30 because those are the hours she sleeps. Maybe it's sleep deprivation! I'm thinking that the bed against the plug idea holds water, it just needs to be in a room that appears to be on a different circuit. There are lots of multi wire circuits in the house. Lots of good ideas. I'm sure we'll get it on the next (read last) trip out to the house. I'll be sure to give a full report of my findings. Spoiler alert! It's a bad back stabbed outlet in a random location. Bleah!


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## SEREMan2000 (Aug 29, 2011)

dronai said:


> Why 11:00am - 5:30am ? somethings sounds like Bs. What is she/he doing up ? I once had a crazy lady, telling me she wanted a rewire, because the wires in the walls were too close to her bed, and the magnetic field was messing with her head ?


i had the same thing only the HO wanted to be able to turn off his entire bedroom at night due to em fields causing him to be hyper and not allowing his body to rest..didnt have the heart to tell the guy that the copper plumbing we ground to turns ur house into a giant em field


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## fjl810 (Jul 20, 2011)

Check for a power line controller (X10 type system) 
They have receptacles that control downstream of the device , and wall mounted controllers.
Just another possibility.:001_huh:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

B4T said:


> Did you check for an outside receptacle that is tapped into that cuircuit..
> 
> Sometimes the obvious gets missed.. it happens..


This was a good, smart post. I am proud of you. You kept on topic and made a realistic reply.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

The obvious is being missed. Wednesday morning we'll map the circuit and find an outlet in the back shed under the rusty toolbox with a bad connection. Then we'll all say "of course".:thumbup:


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

dronai said:


> Why 11:00am - 5:30am ? somethings sounds like Bs. What is she/he doing up ? I once had a crazy lady, telling me she wanted a rewire, because the wires in the walls were too close to her bed, and the magnetic field was messing with her head ?


Man you to I thought I was the only one. When I was there I was waiting for her to put on a tin foil hat too. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FLUKE-Voltage-Recorder-2RUJ8

Got about nine hundred bucks? This would prove her claim helping you to know if it's a real occurrence or fictional. Either way, after using this you can fix it. 
As has been previously stated, it is usually a simple fix once you find it.


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## pitapacket (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. The problem is now resolved. I traced the circuit back to an old (no longer attached to anything) roof vent T-Stat. The T-Stat was no longer working the way it was intended. The HO had rewired the switch box and had run the hot leg of the M. Bedroom part of the circuit through the thermostat. Because of damage to the T-stat the part that makes and breaks contact had shorted, but only when it should have been in the off position. The result was when the temperature went up, the fin would drop down and make contact with the staycon end closing the circuit. At night the temp would drop and the fin would raise off of the stay con and open the circuit. Faulty T-Stat and HO error were of course the cause of this frequent and regular loss of power to the master bedroom. T-Stat is now out of the circuit allowing the homeowner all of the joy that is afforded by a flawlessly functioning electrical circuit. Thanks for the help!


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

pitapacket said:


> Thanks for all of the great suggestions. The problem is now resolved. I traced the circuit back to an old (no longer attached to anything) roof vent T-Stat. The T-Stat was no longer working the way it was intended. The HO had rewired the switch box and had run the hot leg of the M. Bedroom part of the circuit through the thermostat. Because of damage to the T-stat the part that makes and breaks contact had shorted, but only when it should have been in the off position. The result was when the temperature went up, the fin would drop down and make contact with the staycon end closing the circuit. At night the temp would drop and the fin would raise off of the stay con and open the circuit. Faulty T-Stat and HO error were of course the cause of this frequent and regular loss of power to the master bedroom. T-Stat is now out of the circuit allowing the homeowner all of the joy that is afforded by a flawlessly functioning electrical circuit. Thanks for the help!


Well, now you know you don't have to wear a tinfoil hat when you go to her house. :thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Could they have stabbed thru a attic or outdoor receptacle . It seems the contraction time is overnight when the climate cools.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't believe in voodoo or ghosts.. Start tearing the circuit apart. Find the home run. check panel connections. You'll find the answer.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I don't believe in voodoo or ghosts.. Start tearing the circuit apart. Find the home run. check panel connections. You'll find the answer.


So all those haunted houses with flickering lights can be fixed by a electrician instead of a priest. Don't tell Hollywood.


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## DCAC (Feb 11, 2011)

She may not be crazy. I had a similar call to a medical office a few months ago. One of the office spaces kept loosing power. I found that no H.R. was ever ran to this office. So most likely to pass inspection, someone tapped into the closest j-box. Which just so happened to be on a 4-way, w/ 1 of the switches in another office space. I suggest locating the H.R., disconnect it from that room, what ever else is on the circuit will remain intact. Now just install a new circuit for this room.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I had one about 4 years ago. We added a new outlet in this ladys living room. I seen some pull chain porcelains so i tapped off one of those. She called said her outlet wouldn't work sometimes. I checked every connection i thought to the panel, must have been like 10 romex cables in the same hole. turns out the whole basement was on a master switch and i didn't trace the wire right. Everytime i got there the basement lights were on too, making the outlet work everytime.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Shock, Nitro and DCAC y'all need to learn how to read, the answer to the problem was given a few posts above yours...:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: (See post #31)



pitapacket said:


> Thanks for all of the great suggestions. *The problem is now resolved. I traced the circuit back to an old (no longer attached to anything) roof vent T-Stat. The T-Stat was no longer working the way it was intended. The HO had rewired the switch box and had run the hot leg of the M. Bedroom part of the circuit through the thermostat. Because of damage to the T-stat the part that makes and breaks contact had shorted, but only when it should have been in the off position. The result was when the temperature went up, the fin would drop down and make contact with the staycon end closing the circuit. At night the temp would drop and the fin would raise off of the stay con and open the circuit. Faulty T-Stat and HO error were of course the cause of this frequent and regular loss of power to the master bedroom. T-Stat is now out of the circuit allowing the homeowner all of the joy that is afforded by a flawlessly functioning electrical circuit. * Thanks for the help! 11-07-2011 10:47 PM


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Shock, Nitro and DCAC y'all need to learn how to read, the answer to the problem was given a few posts above yours...:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: (See post #31)


Drama queen alert! Drama queen alert!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> So all those haunted houses with flickering lights can be fixed by a electrician instead of a priest. Don't tell Hollywood.


:laughing::laughing:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Drama queen alert! Drama queen alert!


Hackmaster troll alert!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Disregard.
Made a suggestion before I saw the problem was resolved


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