# Union vs. non union



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you can get into an IBEW local that has work, do it.

There is really no downside. You get an excellent apprenticeship for free and a big paycheck with it, along with benefits, pension, annuity, etc.

If you find that you don't like the union afterwards, you can worry about it then.

Don't give your current boss a second thought. Give him notice once you find out that you got into the local, you will usually know a couple months ahead.

ETA: The journeyman rate in IBEW local 569 is $43.25/hr. First year apprentices usually start at 40% of that and go up 10% every year for the 5 years of apprenticeship. That's over $17 your first year and almost $22 your second. By the time you top out the journeyman rate will probably be close to $50/hr.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If you like being told what you'd like to hear, the IBEW is the way to go

good luck

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> If you like being told what you'd like to hear, the IBEW is the way to go
> 
> good luck
> 
> ~CS~


see no evil , hear no evil , speak no evil


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

lighterup said:


> see no evil , hear no evil , speak no evil


 do no evil......~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> do no evil......~CS~


Covers mouth ..it's "speak"

Semantics..the jist of it is , don't get
overly involved in union life and you'll last
a hundred years there.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Union is the place to get your training if you can get in. Your current boss is not your problem.

Take some business courses if you can squeeze out the time.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> If you like being told what you'd like to hear, the IBEW is the way to go
> 
> good luck
> 
> ~CS~


What's the matter Steve could never get in?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

@Simber650 do what ever you can to get in the Union.

It will be the best training you can get and well worth your time and effort.

Use the search feature here and look through some of the other Union-non union threads.


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## al_smelter (Jan 25, 2011)

I've never been sorry for going the union route, even when work did dry up from time to time. Though I am now on the company side of the bargaining table, I have the union to thank for educating me, putting a roof over my head, food on the table, and the the confidence to mold myself into what I have ultimately become. I'm proud of my career.

Unless you have married the boss's daughter, you owe him nothing but a fair day's work, and he owes you nothing but a fair wage for that work. He is already doing you a disservice by paying in cash, and that alone would throw up a red flag for me. You are but a gofer for him.

Ask yourself this: Could I actually see myself retiring from this job? If your answer is 'no', move on if you get the opportunity.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

al_smelter said:


> *I've never been sorry for going the union route, even when work did dry up from time to time. Though I am now on the company side of the bargaining table, I have the union to thank for educating me, putting a roof over my head, food on the table, and the the confidence to mold myself into what I have ultimately become. I'm proud of my career.*
> 
> Unless you have married the boss's daughter, you owe him nothing but a fair day's work, and he owes you nothing but a fair wage for that work. He is already doing you a disservice by paying in cash, and that alone would throw up a red flag for me. You are but a gofer for him.
> 
> Ask yourself this: Could I actually see myself retiring from this job? If your answer is 'no', move on if you get the opportunity.


Well said brother!

If he married the boss's daughter he may just be the one owed...


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Pension is nice when you are older.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

If he is paying you in cash, you really don't have a job and, guess what, you are not really helping him run his business. 
You might have a couple of "cash" guys working under you but, wanna bet it would take him about 12-24 hours to replace you.
You are wasting your time there and the way he is paying you is both criminal and opening you up to a very serious tax problem.
You are in a bad situation there.
Union or not, you need to get away from him.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wait, it's bad to pay employees in cash??? 


Damnit, I just can't catch a break...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@Simber650 , I give this advice a lot when these threads come up, and I know it doesn't get taken very often, but I keep doing it just the same, because in the unlikely event someone takes it, it could be some of the best advice you ever get. 

Sit down with an accountant - a CPA, not someone that just does tax returns like H&R Block - sit down and ask them about your current situation, and ask them about what you'd need to make non-union to really compare to a union job. 

Hopefully you can find a CPA that does the taxes for some people in the union, but bring the info on the journeyman wages and benefits at the local you're dealing with. 

When you look at what you really need to be getting from a non-union shop to match what you can make in the union, then you can make an informed decision. Until then, you're really just flying blind. Most people figure this out a LOT later in life than they'd like and there's not a thing you can do to get back that time. 

He'll also explain to you what a **** show your current situation is, tax wise, benefit wise, probably insurance wise, etc. 

Also consider that you're not getting credit for your time towards your apprenticeship, so you're just stalled, not making progress to bigger money. You can bet your current employer knows that this is an excellent way to avoid ever paying you any more than he pays you now. 

So yeah put down the xbox or whatever you do on the weekend, find an accountant that's a CPA, expect to pay him for his time, and expect him to charge a lot more than you make. If you know someone in the union, ask if he has a CPA that does his taxes. It's their off season, it shouldn't be that hard to find someone. 

Ask the CPA to explain the value of the union wage and benefit package and what it will mean to you now, in five years, and in thirty years.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Wait, it's bad to pay employees in cash???
> 
> 
> Damnit, I just can't catch a break...


Yes it is...you criminal. You could find yourself in a place filled with people who have felonies and smell like cigarettes.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why does he need to pay a CPA for this splatz? It's basic math. 

And that CPA will most likely know much less about the union and how it works than the hundreds of years of union experience the people on this forum can offer.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Yes it is...you criminal. You could find yourself in a place filled with people who have felonies and smell like cigarettes.


I would NEVER pay someone in cash. I payroll all employees and pay WC and unemployment. Unfortunately I lost all the records along with all my firearms in a boating accident 30 miles offshore


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why does he need to pay a CPA for this splatz? It's basic math.
> 
> And that CPA will most likely know much less about the union and how it works than the hundreds of years of union experience the people on this forum can offer.


You can learn more in an hour with a CPA than you're likely to get in ten pages of forum posts. You'll see some saying go union some saying F the union here, some saying a good non-union shop can match the union. 

People are giving him good answers but they are not showing their work. It will be more of an eye opener if he sees this mapped out in detail in actual dollar amounts. Knowledge is power that's why it's worth money. 

How much will he see in his check, how much in five years if he's a journeyman, how much he might see in 10 years if he's a foreman. What does he need to see in a 401k contribution to match the union retirement / pension contributions. What kind of health care plan he'll need to see from a non-union shop to match the union benefit, or what he'll have to pay out of pocket to make up the difference between a less comprehensive health care plan. The difference it will make taking health care out of your check. The difference it will make when your wife has a baby. Who the hell is this ****ing FICA. What happens if you get hurt and your employer has no workman's comp. Etc. Etc. Etc. 

Seeing the details would make the difference between blowing it off and getting their attention for a lot of people. You have to show people to convince them, you can't expect them to take too much on blind faith.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MechanicalDVR said:


> What's the matter Steve could never get in?


They offered, i turned then down

~CS~


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> They offered, i turned then down
> 
> ~CS~




Okay!

:whistling2:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I has said this many times. Just so you know I am not a union fan and have shown that plenty. Mainly because of their shady tactics toward other non union contractors and the whinyness they give out when they don't get their way. 

That being said. If you want to make a good living, be comfortable in retirement, Not have to worry about feeding your family or even worry about how to run a certain conduit you should go union in a heartbeat. 

On the other side of the coin. If you ever have dreams of opening your own business I would stay with the non union route. I your case if you were me and that is what you are thinking you need to work for about 3 or 4 different companies for a few years each. Soak in how each company does things and what work you like the best. Money can be made in every aspect of the trade but just know you are going to start out doing small **** and crawling around in attics for awhile. 

Just my two cents.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Okay!
> 
> :whistling2:


I actually believe him


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I actually believe him


It just rings of being disingenuous to me...


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## Simber650 (Aug 3, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> I has said this many times. Just so you know I am not a union fan and have shown that plenty. Mainly because of their shady tactics toward other non union contractors and the whinyness they give out when they don't get their way.
> 
> That being said. If you want to make a good living, be comfortable in retirement, Not have to worry about feeding your family or even worry about how to run a certain conduit you should go union in a heartbeat.
> 
> ...


It was my impression from many people I've talked to that the unions apprenticeship was one of the best. Do you know of any others that rival it I tried ABC and they are full down here and have been doing WECA ET courses. What do you mean by not have to worry about running conduit a certain way? My experience with non union shops in San Diego is that they do whatever they can to keep you paid as little as possible while having you do the **** jobs and not giving you a chance to prove your self, that is until I met my current boss, guy has taught me a ton in the time I've worked for him and while it might not be legal has me doing journey work which I make every effort to do the best of my ability. My main issue is advancement and getting an all around training in every aspect of electrical. My current boss seems to know more about resi and quick fix sort of things


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> On the other side of the coin. If you ever have dreams of opening your own business I would stay with the non union route. I your case if you were me and that is what you are thinking you need to work for about 3 or 4 different companies for a few years each. Soak in how each company does things and what work you like the best. Money can be made in every aspect of the trade but just know you are going to start out doing small **** and crawling around in attics for awhile.
> 
> Just my two cents.


So a union guy can't learn much of how his employer works and what positive aspects will help in the future then go on to open his own business?

You don't think Union guys go out on their own and open signatory shops?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Simber650 said:


> It was my impression from many people I've talked to that the unions apprenticeship was one of the best. Do you know of any others that rival it I tried ABC and they are full down here and have been doing WECA ET courses. What do you mean by not have to worry about running conduit a certain way? My experience with non union shops in San Diego is that they do whatever they can to keep you paid as little as possible while having you do the **** jobs and not giving you a chance to prove your self, that is until I met my current boss, guy has taught me a ton in the time I've worked for him and while it might not be legal has me doing journey work which I make every effort to do the best of my ability. My main issue is advancement and getting an all around training in every aspect of electrical. My current boss seems to know more about resi and quick fix sort of things


I don't know anything about the union apprenticeship other what I read on here and every single one says it is the best. I don't doubt that one bit. I have had more than a few guys work for me during the day and take classes at a tech school a couple days a week. They have turned out to be very good electricians. It is a lot of work though. 
The really good electricians I know have worked in a variety of fields. Industrial, commercial, resi, fire alarm/data. I can send almost any of my guys to any type of call and know they will be able to handle it. If your guy only does one thing move on.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So a union guy can't learn much of how his employer works and what positive aspects will help in the future then go on to open his own business?
> 
> You don't think Union guys go out on their own and open signatory shops?


Yes they do all the time. Normally after they have been laid off for awhile. I would guess that 80% or so go back to the union after a year or so because they just do not have the variety of experience that a guy working for a small company gets. It is no fun going from a large job where you get set breaks and get to play cards on the roof to crawling around in an attic installing a ceiling fan for some bitchy old lady.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Yes they do all the time. Normally after they have been laid off for awhile. I would guess that 80% or so go back to the union after a year or so because they just do not have the variety of experience that a guy working for a small company gets. It is no fun going from a large job where you get set breaks and get to play cards on the roof to crawling around in an attic installing a ceiling fan for some bitchy old lady.


This has to be area dependent.

In the markets I've worked guys I know built up a nest egg to start a business typically $100k minimum and went out on their own after building up a clientele once they had their state license and working side jobs for a while.

None of them were ever laid off for more than hunting season or two consecutive weeks during their hobby season (ski, scuba, spring break, etc).

Maybe this was because I worked primarily with service guys in the service related parts of businesses.

Construction guys get laid off more often but that still depends on how valuable those guys are to the company, you aren't going to keep a conduit monkey and lay off a guy that can take a foreman position and run a job or two for you.

My BIL had all intent of leaving the Union after he hit 25 years in and opening his own signatory shop, only a heart attack stopped that from happening.

I had all the same plans but an injury from working a second job stopped me from that long term plan. 

I can't think of any of the guys I worked with that went out on their own that quit and went back to the hall.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Simber650 said:


> It was my impression from many people I've talked to that the unions apprenticeship was one of the best. Do you know of any others that rival it I tried ABC and they are full down here and have been doing WECA ET courses. What do you mean by not have to worry about running conduit a certain way? My experience with non union shops in San Diego is that they do whatever they can to keep you paid as little as possible while having you do the **** jobs and not giving you a chance to prove your self, that is until I met my current boss, guy has taught me a ton in the time I've worked for him and while it might not be legal has me doing journey work which I make every effort to do the best of my ability. My main issue is advancement and getting an all around training in every aspect of electrical. My current boss seems to know more about resi and quick fix sort of things


Check out night school at some of the community colleges. Up in OC there are several that offer a lot of good electrical classes. I've done this twice about 20 years apart. The last time, the class offered hands on labs, and lecture. The instructor taught ibew union classes before joining the college
Take DC theory, then AC theory first
Take a NEC Code class
Then after that you can add classes like motor control, and industrial automation


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I worked in the field, Non-Union for 26 years before jumping ship to being an inspector.
I did mainly commercial work. I will be the first person to admit that Yes you can become a great electrician without school.
Would I suggest it ? Hell NO. That route is a tough one that takes a sh*t load of dedication and determination. (Trust Me I went that way)
I did see many people go through the ABC program - Seemed that schooling was pretty good, but it all depended on the person's dedication.

Now I get to see BOTH sides almost every day - Union Jobs/workers & Non-Union jobs /workers. On the union side it seems the apprentices and J-men are better educated and ask questions. GOOD questions not just stupid small talk questions. NOT saying that all non union workers are NOT just as educated , but it seems there are more and more less qualified on the non union side. 

If I were to start over today ( if I knew then what I know now ) I would go straight to the Union Hall.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Okay!
> 
> :whistling2:


He wanted to but, then he told than he was chicken. They didn't get that he is a legend.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

splatz said:


> @Simber650 , I give this advice a lot when these threads come up, and I know it doesn't get taken very often, but I keep doing it just the same, because in the unlikely event someone takes it, it could be some of the best advice you ever get.
> 
> Sit down with an accountant - a CPA, not someone that just does tax returns like H&R Block - sit down and ask them about your current situation, and ask them about what you'd need to make non-union to really compare to a union job.


Well said ! 
I will add 1 more thing that you should also discuss when sitting down with that accountant /CPA.
Tell them your age and that you want to retire at age 50 or 55. Listen to them while discussing the wages and such. Go into investing any tax returns and monetary windfalls that may come your way.

Too many people in this country are hung up on age in relationship to retirement.
Retirement has nothing to do with ones age !! It has everything to do with ones financial ability to live without having a job/ earning a paycheck.

I know some people who have done this and have retired completely at 50. I know 1 guy who watched every penny, made extremely smart decisions when it came to buying a house or a car, and putting money away. He retired completely on his 45th birthday !


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> This has to be area dependent.
> 
> In the markets I've worked guys I know built up a nest egg to start a business typically $100k minimum and went out on their own after building up a clientele once they had their state license and working side jobs for a while.
> 
> ...


I have gone back a time or two when someone had an interesting project for me to run and I could either stop what I was doing to take it on or when I had a commitment that they would cover my service work customers.

If you have the slightest change to give it a try, you should take it. If its not for you, you can always walk.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm with Southeast Power on this.
Whichever way you go, you need get away from your current employer now.

The problem with being an employee getting paid cash:

1. In CA to get you journeyman lic you need a SS printout proving your experience. Working for cash doesn't count as work experience. IDK about the Cali contractor lic, but imagine if you wanted to be the qualifier, your cash work history wont count.

2. No unemployment. Work is slow, or no work, tough sh**.

3. No workers comp. If your injured you have no insurance. At best you can hire an attorney and fight about who pays the hospital bills a year later while your credit is in the toilet.

4. No disability insurance. You can't work because you got hurt on his job, tough sh**.

5. No social security credit. Years later there will be a hole in your social security income record. Which relates to less SS benefits.

6. You may be paid cash and think it's tax free. Then get a 1099 the next year. Meaning the cash income was reported to the IRS. Your taxes due would be much more, because your paying your share and the business owners share of taxes. Imaging a bill for 25% of last years income in your mailbox.

7. Your not building a credit history of income. Want to get a car loan, or house. Not going to happen so easy.

8. Any company that cheats the IRS, cheats employees, does not provide required insurances listed above for employees, risks their contractor license, and BS the employees that things will be different soon, is probably cheating you or endangering your safety in other ways you don't realize.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> He wanted to but, then he told than he was chicken. They didn't get that he is a legend.


A legend in his OWN mind....:whistling2:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Say what you want but, I would rather have a chicken farmer/ EMT living next door to me than some of the others here.


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## vheadman (Sep 9, 2017)

All really good points in this thread, I'm currently in Trade School, trying to figure out the best path for me afterwards. Thanks for all of this valuable info. From what I've heard, if you CAN get into a union, that's the most profitable route.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Regarding starting a business union or non-union - honestly I am not going to take that part of the OP's post that seriously. No offense but far more people think this is a good idea looking at it from a distance. At this point figure out your personal finances union / non union and go from there. 

The decision to be a union or non union contractor is MUCH different than the decision to be a union or non union employee. The number one factor in starting a business is capital. In a year or so, sit down with that same CPA and talk about a business plan and how much it takes to start a union shop versus a non union shop. It might take 20 years as a journeyman to set aside enough to start a union shop, 5 years to start a non union shop that does residential work. There's considerable risk either way. 

A lot of guys that are interested in starting their own business will figure out they don't really want to when they look into it. A lot of others will start their own business and find out after the fact they don't really want to, that's worse. A few will try it and like it and a very,very few will find they're better at business than electrical and make a pile of money.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

*Bingo*:thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> Say what you want but, I would rather have a chicken farmer/ EMT living next door to me than some of the others here.


Then I know very well you have never lived close to a chicken farmer!!!!!!!!!


Pew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It doesn't smell like chicken soup!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

vheadman said:


> All really good points in this thread, I'm currently in Trade School, trying to figure out the best path for me afterwards. Thanks for all of this valuable info. From what I've heard, if you CAN get into a union, that's the most profitable route.


Welcome aboard @vheadman!


Unless you find one of the few great non union employers than Union is always the way to go.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

vheadman said:


> All really good points in this thread, I'm currently in Trade School, trying to figure out the best path for me afterwards. Thanks for all of this valuable info. From what I've heard, if you CAN get into a union, that's the most profitable route.


Or come to Nebraska and work for me...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> Or come to Nebraska and work for me...




Bad labor shortage going on out there?


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

Simber650 said:


> My goal is to get the best training all around electrical training I can and start my own company one day (would like to learn both aspects of inside wireman and datacom). So my questions is I guess what are the pros and cons of the union and if there are other avenues I can take to get a solid training in the field so I can journey out and really know my stuff.


pros and cons of the union vary greatly by location.

some pros of the union are; 
-you know how much you will get paid per hour worked.
-you know what benefits you have and will have until the next labor negotiation
-your probably going to work with a wider variety of people with a wider variety of electrical construction experience.
-after you top out you will likely have a good opportunity to travel to other areas for work and to choose between projects you want to work on
-you have more people to complain to that are supposed to listen and help

some cons of the union are;
-as an apprentice if work is slow its hard to get another job while your out of work because if a job through the hall needs you, you have to go when they need you.
-in some locals the apprentices would be considered by most reasonable people to be indentured servants.
-in some locals the apprentices are treated bad and poorly trained
-as an apprentice you have no choice as to who you work under, with or the kind of work you do.
-some locals only do construction work and workers don't get experience with maintenance and service work


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

Simber650 said:


> My goal is to get the best training all around electrical training I can and start my own company one day (would like to learn both aspects of inside wireman and datacom). if there are other avenues I can take to get a solid training in the field so I can journey out and really know my stuff.


union v non-union in my opinion is not universally a factor for good training or the experience you desire. like anything else it is dependent on the specific people on each side that you would be working with. the big thing is trying to find the best people to work for in your area union or non-union.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

vheadman said:


> From what I've heard, if you CAN get into a union, that's the most profitable route.


generally, especially for lazy people. but not necessarily for very self motivated people.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Leyden said:


> generally, especially for lazy people. but not necessarily for very self motivated people.


When you come across a non union employee that makes the same annually as a union employee with the same benefits package please let us all know.

There right up there with unicorns in number.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> When you come across a non union employee that makes the same annually as a union employee with the same benefits package please let us all know.
> 
> There right up there with unicorns in number.


owners and part owners


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Leyden said:


> owners and part owners


Oh like slave drivers and slave owners.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

sure or like the O.P. desires to be.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> owners and part owners


Why would you compare a union worker to an owner?

A) Compare a union worker to a non-union worker.

B) Compare the owner of a union company to the owner of a non-union company.

In both instances, the union side are usually making significantly more money.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why would you compare a union worker to an owner?
> 
> A) Compare a union worker to a non-union worker.
> 
> ...


Amen brother!

Maybe because a typical eastcoast urban local journeyman makes about the same annual salary on average as a non union shop owner in other markets?


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Why would you compare a union worker to an owner?
> 
> A) Compare a union worker to a non-union worker.
> 
> ...


have you considered being an organizer. the owners are more likely to be persuaded by someone like you that truly believes that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> have you considered being an organizer. the owners are more likely to be persuaded by someone like you that truly believes that.


If you weren't such a newb you would know that I own a non-union EC company.

So instead of the hyperbole, why don't you actually discuss the topic?

I made a statement that anyone who knows both sides would agree with unless they were letting their bias blind them. You seem to disagree with it but provided no evidence whatsoever.

Did you register here just to bash the union? Do you work for ABC??


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Leyden said:


> sure or like the O.P. desires to be.


Lol, you mention the OP and leave out the fact that his working conditions he describes are typical cause for the reasons so many unionized guys feel the way they do about non union employers.

Just milk your employees dry......then when they quit or get fired for having a backbone you just replace them with the next guy that needs the money you offer so bad he accepts the job.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Why would you compare a union worker to an owner?
> 
> A) Compare a union worker to a non-union worker.
> 
> ...



owners are often employees of the company they own. owners are often workers. do you not see similarities in a superintendent/foreman and an owner/president/manager/lead electrician


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> If you weren't such a newb you would know that I own a non-union EC company.
> 
> So instead of the hyperbole, why don't you actually discuss the topic?
> 
> ...


 you should go union, you almost guarantee you will make more money.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> owners are often employees of the company they own. owners are often workers. do you not see similarities in a superintendent/foreman and an owner/president/manager/lead electrician


Nothing you just said makes any difference whether it's union or non-union. 

My statement still stands, union workers and the owners of union companies generally make more.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> you should go union, you almost guarantee you will make more money.


Thats my goal.

So why haven't you posted anything to do with the discussion? Why are you only posting stupid jabs? 

Tell us how non-union workers and the owners of non-union companies make more, as you asserted.


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Did you register here just to bash the union? Do you work for ABC??



no, sorry it came off that way. union absolutely has some benefits over non-union. i believe working conditions for everyone are better because of some of the union activists throughout history. but not all unions(locals/internationals) help the workers as much as they would like people to believe. i believe unions are necessary in our society.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Leyden said:


> owners are often employees of the company they own. owners are often workers. do you not see similarities in a superintendent/foreman and an owner/president/manager/lead electrician


Rather than 'US' as a location why not let us in on the secret location you work in?

Not all locations in the US are equal in union vs non union discussions.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> no, sorry it came off that way. union absolutely has some benefits over non-union. i believe working conditions for everyone are better because of some of the union activists throughout history. but not all unions(locals/internationals) help the workers as much as they would like people to believe. i believe unions are necessary in our society.


I completely agree with what you said in this post.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Union training and pay are great, and if you can rise to the top, like IBEW president, you can make a decent wage. Ed Hill made about $6,500,000 in his years as president and I'm sure he receives a modest pension check so he does not have to eat baloney sandwiches in his retirement years. 
As far as politics they favored the donkey in donations at 96%.
https://www.unionfacts.com/union/International_Brotherhood_of_Electrical_Workers


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Thats my goal.
> 
> So why haven't you posted anything to do with the discussion? Why are you only posting stupid jabs?
> 
> Tell us how non-union workers and the owners of non-union companies make more, as you asserted.


most union workers make more than there non-union counter parts, i'm not sure if you think i was saying that. and i don't no what most owners make. i have seen some union and non-union owners both appear to be very wealthy.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Rather than 'US' as a location why not let us in on the secret location you work in?


whoa buddy, we just met.



MechanicalDVR said:


> Not all locations in the US are equal in union vs non union discussions.


i completely agree


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Union training and pay are great, and if you can rise to the top, like IBEW president, you can make a decent wage. Ed Hill made about $6,500,000 in his years as president and I'm sure he receives a modest pension check so he does not have to eat baloney sandwiches in his retirement years.
> As far as politics they favored the donkey in donations at 96%.
> https://www.unionfacts.com/union/International_Brotherhood_of_Electrical_Workers


Ed Hill made $365K plus some benefits at the end of his career. He was essentially the CEO of an international company with 750,000 employees. 

Someone in his position in any other company would be making millions in salary plus bonuses.

In my local a normal journeyman working a base 2,000 hours makes over $100K and around $160K in total compensation. That's over a third of what the highest position makes. Seems very reasonable.

BTW, you will notice that the new President of the IBEW only makes $227K and a total package of $268K.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Just milk your employees dry......then when they quit or get fired for having a backbone you just replace them with the next guy that needs the money you offer so bad he accepts the job.


i've seen and heard of many union outfits that try this model as well. usually doesn't work well for union or non-union


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

Leyden said:


> i believe unions are necessary in our society.


but also believe non-union is in some instance a better option. like if the choice is between a misled local/union or a decent non-union company(they do exist)


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> If you weren't such a newb you would know that I own a non-union EC company.





HackWork said:


> Thats my goal.


did you loose your vesting credits? why not stay union if you intended on returning?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> did you loose your vesting credits? why not stay union if you intended on returning?


Vesting credits? As in my pension? I didn't lose any pension credits if that's what you mean. 

I still pay dues and am a member. I am not a signatory contractor, too small.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I can usually tell who was and wasn't in a union .

Union apprentices learn right away what the pecking order is.

Non union doesn't teach this cause the small non union mom 
& pop shops reward butt sniffers over productivity.

I've seen both and never respected the latter.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Ed Hill made $365K plus some benefits at the end of his career. He was essentially the CEO of an international company with 750,000 employees.
> 
> Someone in his position in any other company would be making millions in salary plus bonuses.
> 
> ...


Ed made $451,465 with benefits per year. 14 years 4 months comes out to $6,400,000. (my did the math in my head the first time). IBEW has 488 employees, they represent 662,175 workers.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

I think you learn more in a smaller company than you would in a union.
The union is great with pay,benefits and learning dont get me wrong.
But with a small EC, you will get more hands on working experiance at different aspects much faster than with a union. 
Much of the learning however, you will need to do on your own, in most cases. 

JMHO

Texting and Driving


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Ed made $451,465 with benefits per year.


He didn't make that every year. He worked his way up to it. Go read what I posted about how little the current president makes.



> 14 years 4 months comes out to $6,400,000. (my did the math in my head the first time).


 Incorrect for the reason mentioned above.



> IBEW has 488 employees, they represent 662,175 workers.


I know exactly what they do.

The President makes peanuts compared to a similarly sized organization.

When you quoted the employees, you forgot the employees of every IBEW local.

No matter how much propaganda you use, you won't make the President's salary sound too high to any reasonable person.

You want the person running a 750,000 man crew to be someone who commands a high salary himself.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

drsparky said:


> Ed made $451,465 with benefits per year. 14 years 4 months comes out to $6,400,000. (my did the math in my head the first time). IBEW has 488 employees, they represent 662,175 workers.


another item for the con list
-he makes that much while we incorporate the CE/CW program to reduce wages for people wanting to work Union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

For the most part.

Workers are better paid and have a better benefit package with the union, retirement is hard to beat.

If the local has work full time, going union is a better option for most workers.

While union has benefits for owners, medium size shops open shop company owners I KNOW do better financially. 

Work is normally work work and makes no difference union or open shop, BUT in general you have to work 40 hours a week why not get the most you can for that labor.

AND LASTLY - Some of the angst open shop men have regarding unions comes from some of the BS open shop workers put up with from union members. Having worked as the only open shop on an union job for 2.5 years I can tell you the SH*T we put up with was at the level some ass should have been kicked. This was my 1st full time job at 17 and I thought unions must be terrible to have such A-holes as members. Mind you it was just a few men I am sure but the rank and file stood with those members.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I became a union apprentice at 46. I have a college degree but found myself unemployed and underemployed for a couple of years when the economy changed and caused my career to blow up. It was the best decision I ever made. I wish I had joined right out of high school. I enjoy the work. I would be much better off with lots of retirement money in my account and years of service.

Working union has the advantage that they keep the employers in line. You always get paid on time, the working conditions are generally safe, you never work through lunch, and you get a break mid morning. They can't force you to work overtime or weird shifts. If something goes wrong, there is a person at the hall you can complain to who will help make it right.

After 10 years of working for others, I opened my own EC business. I signed up with the union. I've been in business for three years now. Most of the time I'm a one man band, but when I need someone tomorrow with a certain set of skills, I just call the dispatcher and make an order. By 9:30 am tomorrow that person will show up, fill out paperwork for about 15 minutes and then go to work. Not every union electrician they send me is great, but they are usually adequate. Since I don't have to advertise, interview, and test, the process to get an employee is very fast and efficient. And I can lay them off the second I no longer need them which saves me money.

Not everything is rosy with the union. When you get laid off, you go to the bottom of the list and wait your turn for a job. If work is slow, you may be waiting a long time. You may have to travel to find work. Not everybody is going to like that part. It's the main reason I started my own company, so I could make my own work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Coppersmith said:


> Working union has the advantage that they keep the employers in line. You always get paid on time, the working conditions are generally safe, you never work through lunch, and you get a break mid morning. They can't force you to work overtime or weird shifts. If something goes wrong, there is a person at the hall you can complain to who will help make it right.


I never saw much difference between the open shops and union shops I worked with, safety was about the same, never had an issue with pay, I was never forced to work OT and my union employees work through their lunch everyday to avoid afternoon DC traffic.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

brian john said:


> I never saw much difference between the open shops and union shops I worked with, safety was about the same, never had an issue with pay, I was never forced to work OT and my union employees work through their lunch everyday to avoid afternoon DC traffic.


You don't live in a right to work state with weak unions and tons of easy to exploit illegal labor.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> You don't live in a right to work state with weak unions and tons of easy to exploit illegal labor.


Agreed.

Brian might not have seen it, but we all know that the majority of union companies are larger and usually forced to have safety policies while the majority of non union companies are 2-3 man little shops with no safety equipment at all.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Why doesn't anyone tell these wanna bees the truth? 

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> I never saw much difference between the open shops and union shops I worked with, safety was about the same, never had an issue with pay, I was never forced to work OT and my union employees work through their lunch everyday to avoid afternoon DC traffic.


You had a rare experience.
Here the difference is significant.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Brian might not have seen it, but we all know that the majority of union companies are larger and usually forced to have safety policies while the majority of non union companies are 2-3 man little shops with no safety equipment at all.


I work for DC largest and smallest shops and on construction sites the GC's set the standards and in this area all seem pretty tough.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> You had a rare experience.
> Here the difference is significant.


I only worked with one union shop in Miami and their work was average to below average. The residential shops I saw just in looking at houses were typical lay and leave them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

TGGT said:


> You don't live in a right to work state with weak unions and tons of easy to exploit illegal labor.


I live in Virginia headquarters of RTW, I drive by there once or twice a week.

National Right to Work Legal Defense and Education Foundation, Inc.
8001 Braddock Road /* Springfield, Virginia* 22160
(703) 321-8510 | (800) 336-3600 / (703) 321-9613 fax - general (703) 321-9319 fax - legal department


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Why doesn't anyone tell these wanna bees the truth?
> 
> ~CS~


WHY? Because you can't answer the question?:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> I work for DC largest and smallest shops and on construction sites the GC's set the standards and in this area all seem pretty tough.


I would imagine work in those places would require guys to poop Tiffany cuff links. Once you get into the habit of compliance, to becomes easier and easier.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> I would imagine work in those places would require guys to poop Tiffany cuff links. Once you get into the habit of compliance, to becomes easier and easier.


I THINK at least with us, compliance comes from the owners trying to minimize accidents (workman's comp cost), customer demands, OSHA compliance, our insurance carrier and the men wanting a safe work environment


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Leyden said:


> i've seen and heard of many union outfits that try this model as well. usually doesn't work well for union or non-union


Try maybe but you can't play with what you pay your guys and the benefits they get.

Some low life contractors try to play with the benefits and don't usually get far.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Why doesn't anyone tell these wanna bees the truth?
> 
> ~CS~


If you were never on the union side of the fence what could you possibly tell anyone with honesty?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> *I think you learn more in a smaller company than you would in a union.*
> The union is great with pay,benefits and learning dont get me wrong.
> But with a small EC, you will get more hands on working experiance at different aspects much faster than with a union.
> Much of the learning however, you will need to do on your own, in most cases.
> ...


Not to say what you learn in a smaller shop is correct.

Most guys that quote 'dream' or 'fantasy' codes come from those small shops where doing the job cheap as possible dictates quality.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If you were never on the union side of the fence what could you possibly tell anyone with honesty?


I havent read the whole thread and maybe off so my apologies in advance.

.....That my dues aren't funding liberal agendas. But that's a conscience issue. You could argue that about taxes etc...though one should pay. Joining the union would be more of a choice then a demand (taxes).
But I know of people who don't join for that reason. Now Pollo Steve doesn't share my world view so I'm not answering for him. But thought it should be said. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

It comes up here often about dues money being spent on politics. I never understood why this is an issue. Didn't Bush sign in the paycheck deception act? In our local, and I assume all locals, you have to sign an agreement because of the paycheck deception act, that a portion of your dues can be used for political contributions. If you don't sign it, you get your portion of your dues back at the end of the year that would have been spent on contributions. 

I wouldn't let politics decide weather I joined a union or not.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> It comes up here often about dues money being spent on politics. I never understood why this is an issue. Didn't Bush sign in the paycheck deception act? In our local, and I assume all locals, you have to sign an agreement because of the paycheck deception act, that a portion of your dues can be used for political contributions. If you don't sign it, you get your portion of your dues back at the end of the year that would have been spent on contributions.
> 
> I wouldn't let politics decide weather I joined a union or not.


I opted out when BHO ran.

I agree on not letting politics make that decision for me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I havent read the whole thread and maybe off so my apologies in advance.
> 
> .....That my dues aren't funding liberal agendas. But that's a conscience issue. You could argue that about taxes etc...though one should pay. Joining the union would be more of a choice then a demand (taxes).
> But I know of people who don't join for that reason. Now Pollo Steve doesn't share my world view so I'm not answering for him. But thought it should be said.
> ...


By law you can opt out of the PAC funding.

Darn it, I should have read the next posts lol.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not to say what you learn in a smaller shop is correct.
> 
> Most guys that quote 'dream' or 'fantasy' codes come from those small shops where doing the job cheap as possible dictates quality.


Depends on what the shops do.

We are a small shop and electricians that work here tell you they see stuff and do stuff they never knew existed.


Large companies I worked at had speciality workers and if you got with that group you would learn different stuff, controls or fire alarm or electrical testing, the other guys might be doing MC, EMT, setting equipment.

A lot of small shops HERE do or stick to shopping centers, or office fit-outs, churches or gas stations.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Not to say what you learn in a smaller shop is correct.
> 
> Most guys that quote 'dream' or 'fantasy' codes come from those small shops where doing the job cheap as possible dictates quality.


I guess it depends on the shop.

Speaking for myself, there are only 2 other employees and we pride ourselves on quality.

That said however, i get told things are required per code when in reality it is our preferred method.
This is where i struggle and need to learn code on my own. I'll perform tasks as required but i'd like to know the reasoning behind it and learning code for my own benefit!

Texting and Driving


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> I guess it depends on the shop.
> 
> Speaking for myself, there are only 2 other employees and we pride ourselves on quality.
> 
> ...


 This is why I recommend everyone doing a union apprenticeship if available. You'll get .a very high-quality and expensive education for free while also making money.

The JATC apprenticeship will first give you a course called Codeology which teaches you how to use the code. Then you'll have Code and Practices courses which teach the actual electrical code. And there is plenty more training in all facets of the job.

If you decide that you don't like the union after apprenticeship, you didn't lose a thing. You're still far ahead of the game.


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> This is why I recommend everyone doing a union apprenticeship if available. You'll get .a* very high-quality* and expensive education for* free* while also making money.


this is true for many locals but not all. some are low quality and even charge for training. some charge $1/hr worked on job right out of paycheck. and some sue there apprentices for $2,000/years they were in apprenticeship if they do not work through hall for 5 years after they complete the program.




HackWork said:


> If you decide that you don't like the union after apprenticeship, *you didn't lose a thing*. You're still far ahead of the game.


some will sue you for $2,000 for every year you were in


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

chicken steve said:


> Why doesn't anyone tell these wanna bees the truth?
> 
> ~CS~


the big reason right now is because many of the pensions are in dire need of young guys to put money in them. and the need for young guys to do the work the old entitled guys don't think they should have to do.


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

cabletie said:


> It comes up here often about dues money being spent on politics. I never understood why this is an issue. Didn't Bush sign in the paycheck deception act? In our local, and I assume all locals, you have to sign an agreement because of the paycheck deception act, that a portion of your dues can be used for political contributions. If you don't sign it, you get your portion of your dues back at the end of the year that would have been spent on contributions.
> 
> I wouldn't let politics decide weather I joined a union or not.


this is a funny subject to me. if a church endorses a candidate they risk loosing there 501c3 status, but unions do not.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> this is true for many locals but not all. some are low quality and even charge for training. some charge $1/hr worked on job right out of paycheck. and some sue there apprentices for $2,000/years they were in apprenticeship if they do not work through hall for 5 years after they complete the program.
> 
> 
> 
> some will sue you for $2,000 for every year you were in


It is true that I generalized a bit.

There are some very small locals that don't keep up with the *N*JATC program properly. But I wouldn't recommend joining those locals to begin with.

As for paying for the apprenticeship, it is usually paid for out of the package, a percentage is taken out of every journeyman's package. I have never heard of it taken out of their paycheck. 

Finally, some locals have rules that you have to continue to work in the local for 2 years after the apprenticeship. That still isn't bad, considering you will still be making a great paycheck and adding 2 more years to your vested pension in addition to 2 more years of money going into your annuity.. If there is no work, they can't hold you to it either.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> this is a funny subject to me. if a church endorses a candidate they risk loosing there 501c3 status, but unions do not.


Labor unions are not 501(c)3. I believe they are often 501(c)(5).


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> the big reason right now is because many of the pensions are in dire need of young guys to put money in them. and the need for young guys to do the work the old entitled guys don't think they should have to do.


LOL, you are clearly a troll who only joined to bash unions in this thread. 18 of your 19 posts on this forum are in this thread.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Labor unions are not 501(c)3. I believe they are often 501(c)(5).


correct, both tax free status but c5 is allowed to support political parties


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

i support the IBEW internationally and locally. but i believe being open and honest to people considering joining is better for everyone, rather than hiding some of our problems that may affect the person. we are also more likely to correct our problems if they are recognized.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i support the IBEW internationally and locally. but i believe being open and honest to people considering joining is better for everyone, rather than hiding some of our problems that may affect the person. we are also more likely to correct our problems if they are recognized.


Yeah, saying that people here are lying about the merits of the IBEW because they need more people to pay for the old and entitled guy's pensions is really being open, honest, and unbiased


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, saying that people here are lying about the merits of the IBEW because they need more people to pay for the old and entitled guy's pensions is really being open, honest, and unbiased


He does call himself an "inside wireman" Union guys are the only ones that would ever do that.


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, saying that people here are lying about the merits of the IBEW because they need more people to pay for the old and entitled guy's pensions is really being open, honest, and unbiased


i didn't mean anyone was lying, sorry if it came off that way. i do believe there was some over-generalization though. i am biased. the new blood for the pension has been a big topic in the union lately, locally and nationally.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Leyden said:


> the big reason right now is because many of the pensions are in dire need of young guys to put money in them.


Our pension is covered 98% which means that if the local closed it's doors tomorrow, 98% of the men would be covered at the current rate until they die. So if they closed the doors tomorrow, and I start to collect my pension when I retire in ten years, I will get $95 dollars times my credited years until I die. When the pension is covered at or near 100% the board of trusties discuss raising the credited year amount. the board of trusties is made up of IBEW local members, NECA local members and lawyers. Ours is set to increase in the next few months from $95 to $98. 

There is also the international Pension and another local pension as well as a supplemental pension if you decide to retire early. The supplemental pension basically pays your medical benefits until you start to collect your regular pension. All the Pensions are funded and pay out with the same protections.

The dire need is that so many will be retiring soon and they need people to replace them. To me that seems like an Industry problem not just a union/Non-union thing.





> and the need for young guys to do the work the old entitled guys don't think they should have to do


Total BS


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> He does call himself an "inside wireman" Union guys are the only ones that would ever do that.


Yeah, because there is no way a troll who registered to make all his posts in a union thread ever lied about his affiliation. 

I thought you were a better moderator than this??


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, because there is no way a troll who registered to make all his posts in a union thread ever lied about his affiliation.
> 
> I thought you were a better moderator than this??


OH, I would have sent him packing. 
Although his next post make him sound union like also.
I really think he is one of yours.


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

anyone reading this thread that's considering going union, i highly recommend it if the local union has good leadership and the membership is skilled. And if they don't have either of those i still recommend it if all the local non-union shops are hacks.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> OH, I would have sent him packing.
> Although his next post make him sound union like also.
> I really think he is one of yours.


Like a good troll he learned to change it up. His earlier posts show he is not union:



Leyden said:


> vheadman said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've heard, if you CAN get into a union, that's the most profitable route.
> ...


----------



## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

cabletie said:


> Our pension is covered 98% which means that if the local closed it's doors tomorrow, 98% of the men would be covered at the current rate until they die.


do you happen to remember what that number did in times like 2008?

a benefit of bringing young people in is the pension will not have to sell off as many or any assets. owning profitable assets makes money and is how you expect to make as much as you do when you retire, other wise it's similar to a savings account.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> Depends on what the shops do.
> 
> We are a small shop and electricians that work here tell you they see stuff and do stuff they never knew existed.
> 
> ...


There is good and bad in all size shops. 

In smaller shops were there is a tremendous amount of variety in the work they do it seems many guys that come out of them as journeymen just reflect what they were taught by the owner or lead guy there if it was correct or not.

Just something I've noticed in the 1st year j-men I've worked with.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> I guess it depends on the shop.
> 
> Speaking for myself, there are only 2 other employees and we pride ourselves on quality.
> 
> ...


That is exactly my point, many guys coming out of small shops like that will swear up and down something they learned there is the only right way to do something and it isn't always so.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Leyden said:


> do you happen to remember what that number did in times like 2008?
> 
> a benefit of bringing young people in is the pension will not have to sell off as many or any assets. owning profitable assets makes money and is how you expect to make as much as you do when you retire, other wise it's similar to a savings account.



I do remember what happened, and luckily ours was pretty stable. I don't remember what they did to keep it stable. I think we put our next raise into the pension. They may have sold some assets? I know the dollar per credited years never went down. 

When the board of trustees sits down with the Actuary they look at all these things, like the amount of people retiring, before they adjust the dollar per credited year.

The plumbers/Pipe fitters took a big hit. They cut their dollar per credited years almost in half. As a result guys that could have stayed working retired early. They took the 2% a year penalty for going out early, but were still far ahead of the game. I would have to ask one of them to see if their dollar per credited year is back to pre-recession levels yet.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> This is why I recommend everyone doing a union apprenticeship if available. You'll get .a very high-quality and expensive education for free while also making money.
> .





lighterup said:


> Just when I thought I had a good grasp of the neutral's path to ground , I realized I do not understand how a portable generator's neutral return path reaches ground (earth)?


i may have found where our communication is breaking down. we may be using different definitions of high quality education


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i may have found where our communication is breaking down. we may be using different definitions of high quality education


Agreed, lighterup is an example of an old non-union electrician who never went thru a proper apprenticeship and doesn't know the basics of even a residential service. His code knowledge is almost non-existent and when you try to explain the correct code to him he isn't willing to listen. He does things based on assumptions and what he was told by someone.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

i apologize, by reading his earlier post i thought he went through the program






lighterup said:


> I can usually tell who was and wasn't in a union .
> 
> Union apprentices learn right away what the pecking order is.
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i apologize, by reading his earlier post i thought he went through the program


You apologize for what? 

Because the great example you gave actually didn't support your side, which is bashing unions? :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Go away troll.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Leyden said:


> i apologize, by reading his earlier post i thought he went through the program


This is why I'm self employed. 

The small shops I learned the trade from placed no 
emphasis on proper training , seemed to give raises to a** kissers 
and once I seen enough of it , I joined IBEW as a wireman...but they
were worthless too.

I just don't like know it all's who dump on your threads cause your man
enough to admit what you don't know.

Don't leave . stick around . Not all of us are like this:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i apologize, by reading his earlier post i thought he went through the program


Nope, you can easily tell who hasn't.

Not only the lack of knowledge, but the complete unwillingness to learn anything other than what they were told once.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I apologize also. I was completely wrong and should have never said that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I apologize also. I was completely wrong and should have never said that.


Thank you.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

lighterup said:


> This is why I'm self employed.
> 
> The small shops I learned the trade from placed no
> emphasis on proper training , seemed to give raises to a** kissers
> ...


i didn't mean it as an insult to you, i have worked with many guys that went through the program and wouldn't know that, i just thought it was a good example.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Leyden said:


> i didn't mean it as an insult to you, i have worked with many guys that went through the program and wouldn't know that, i just thought it was a good example.


I did not take it as an insult. We're fine. I don't come on this
forum to having pissing contests like one or two others others 
do.:thumbsup:

Just FYI ..I have more "union " experience from USPS as well as
apprenticeship in a Carpenters local in Cleveland. I did not get
into the electrical trade until my mid 30's and did not have any 
desire to start another apprenticeship at that age. That is a brief of
my background. 

Also , unlike another guy on this web sight , I served in the 
Military the first 4 years out of high school and did not have the
benefit of nepotism to lateral me into a nice union apprenticeship
via the umbrella of my family...not that there's anything wrong 
with that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i didn't mean it as an insult to you, i have worked with many guys that went through the program and wouldn't know that, i just thought it was a good example.


No, you did mean it as an insult. Only it blew back in your face since you were wrong about him going thru a union apprenticeship. Good job backpedaling though.

And no, you never met anyone who went thru a real apprenticeship that thinks you need a ground rod for current to flow thru earth in order for a residential service to work.


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## Leyden (Sep 4, 2017)

HackWork said:


> And no, you never met anyone who went thru a real apprenticeship that thinks you need a ground rod for current to flow thru earth in order for a residential service to work.


i agree, not a real apprenticeship. but they were (bad local) ibew apprenticeships, sadly.


i believe i am done posting in this thread


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i agree, not a real apprenticeship. but they were (bad local) ibew apprenticeships, sadly.
> 
> 
> i believe i am done posting in this thread


The IBEW was supposed to clear that up with the NJATC (ie. National).


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Leyden said:


> i believe i am done posting in this thread


Out of your 29 posts, you made 28 of them in this thread. Let's see what else you can do :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Leyden said:


> i agree, not a real apprenticeship. but they were (bad local) ibew apprenticeships


You should just stop. 
I gave the only real non union argument in this whole thread. 
You are just getting yourself put on ignore by everyone and when you have a real question you will get no help.


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## Robmil81 (Jun 14, 2017)

I left the union 6 years ago and did maintenance work up till now which I decided to go back, so I'm back in the union, it's not a bad gig and really the pay is good, and you get better training as far as apprenticeship goes too. There's good and bad with everything it's not the union or non-union it's the company you work for that's screwing you 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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