# Do we need neutral for 240 volts oven or air-condition system



## gilamor (Jul 5, 2007)

Do we need neutral for 240 volts oven or air-condition system
Some electrical oven state in the installation instruction that the neutral and ground can be bounded together and suggest to look at local code requirements
In Los Angeles County when I call the electrical code hotline some inspectors are saying that old appliances used to be connected with ground only but this requirement has been changed and now you must put neutral as well, other inspectors say to use the manufacture suggestions. When I asked electricians 20-40 years in the business they give the same answer. Some say that it is ok to omit the neutral for an air-conditioned but not for an oven
Does anyone know the requirement?

Ophir Amor
Amor electric
http://www.amorelectric.com
[email protected]


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Ophir, I don't mean to sound rude, but you possess an electrical master's license in California, yet you don't know this part of the code? 

This is pretty basic stuff. If an appliance requires a neutral it requires a neutral. There is no ambiguity here.

OLDER codes had _an exception_ where a household cooking appliance or dryer, that was *120/240v rated* (meaning two hots and a neutral), could have the ground bonded to the neutral. This allowed SEU cable to be used or X/3NM cable without ground. 
In these cases a neutral was ALWAYS required. Anyone saying that you could use only a ground was flat WRONG. The exception allowed the omission of the ground, NOT the neutral. 
This exception has been gone for several code cycles and ANY new circuit rated 120/240v requires separate ground AND neutral conductors.

If a circuit is a *straight 240v*, such as an A/C, water heater, electric motor, etc, then NO neutral is or ever was required.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

gilamor said:


> When I asked electricians 20-40 years in the business they give the same answer. Some say that it is ok to omit the neutral for an air-conditioned but not for an oven
> Does anyone know the requirement?


What a specific appliance will require is specific to the appliance....however, a rather "safe" rule of thumb is:
- 99% of the time you need a neutral at an oven
- 99% of the time you don't need a neutral for an AC - not talking about some through the wall/window model....talking compressors, ducts, air handelers, etc.

The neutral-to-EGC connection IS allowed ONLY in certain installations:

From the '05 NEC:


> 250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
> Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
> 
> Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
> ...


This image from Mike Holt illustrates 250.140:









http://mikeholt.com/freegraphics.php?id=gvb


Of course, a local amendment can trump a NEC requirement.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Ophir, I don't mean to sound rude, but you possess an electrical master's license in California, yet you don't know this part of the code?


 
I have heard a rumor that the board of examiners that administer the Electricians testing in Ca have done a study that shows if the test questions are too hard many applicants may develope a severe head ache that may result in brain tumors somewhere down the line, so they stick to the simple ones.

ie: if you open a box and have a black, red, and white wire...you get the idea.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Do the tests have a warning label: 

*WARNING: These tests have been known to cause severe headaches in the state of California. 
*


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Do the tests have a warning label:
> 
> *WARNING: These tests have been known to cause severe headaches in the state of California.
> *


I think they have cause headaches in other states too...


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I think they have cause headaches in other states too...


Yeah, but they only cause cancer in California. :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yeah, but they only cause cancer in California. :laughing:


From all the smoking, alcohol and drug use the stress causes, I guess.... :whistling2:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> From all the smoking, alcohol and drug use the stress causes, I guess.... :whistling2:


Maybe it's just being in Cali that causes cancer in lab tests, I know I felt sick there after just talking to a few people.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Go ahead and make what you want of this but I passed both the ca journeymens and contractors without studying. And each one took less than an hour. My Michigans j-mans I studied on my own for six months and I used every second available and just squeeked by.:thumbup: In other words this as close to right to work as you can get.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> Go ahead and make what you want of this but I passed both the ca journeymens and contractors without studying. And each one took less than an hour. My Michigans j-mans I studied on my own for six months and I used every second available and just squeeked by.:thumbup: In other words this as close to right to work as you can get.


That's what I had figured in relationship to a CA test. I bet they have more study guides in Spanish than english available.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

You got it, RK because the journeymens test is knew to the state, they gave an extra year to people takeing the spanish version to comply. WHAT the [email protected]#$?


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Don't worry about the language. In 50 years all Americans will be speaking Spanish and you English speakers will be the ones to get the extra year !!!!!


Frank


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> You got it, RK because the journeymens test is knew to the state, they gave an extra year to people takeing the spanish version to comply. WHAT the [email protected]#$?


 
Maybe we should leave the country long enough to get citizenship somewhere else and then come back and become repatrioted to get the benefits immigrants get.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Do you think the OP is a real electrician. He has a really nice website, if I didn't know any better I would hire him. Other than the fact that he doesn't even know how to wire the range or an air Conditioner.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

RK finally a topic it sounds were in total agreement. Bk:laughing:


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

List you license number on your website so the Contractors Board doesn't bust you. Suggest you get rid of the "low price" so you don't attract bottom feeders.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

Duplicate post. Now I know how not to do that.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

frank said:


> Don't worry about the language. In 50 years all Americans will be speaking Spanish and you English speakers will be the ones to get the extra year !!!!!
> Frank


If we pay for the tea we ruined, can we come back there? :whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

jrclen said:


> If we pay for the tea we ruined, can we come back there? :whistling2:


:laughing:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> :laughing:


It would be nice if it was that easy. Try paying like 50% income tax. I think that's close for the UK.


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## jrclen (Oct 23, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> It would be nice if it was that easy. Try paying like 50% income tax. I think that's close for the UK.


Our government is no slouch when it comes to parting us from our money. But we are more creative by having layers and layers of taxes. But, I'll stick it out. I wouldn't mind moving to a more money friendly state though. :thumbsup:


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## gilamor (Jul 5, 2007)

*Thank you to those who provided positive answers*

I thank you for all of those who responded with helpful information. As for those who want to berade me, a question is asked to help others with information. It is not fair to pass judgement or provide negative comments because I want to educate myself in my profession. I am a new electrician and I work for my brother, Gil, who is the owner of Amor Electric, and a very experienced electrician and who possesses a degree in electrical engineering. He recommended this website to me as an informative tool in helping me get answers I may need. Again, thanks to those who took the time to help me.


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## Louieb (Mar 19, 2007)

Its not the repayment for damaged goods I worry about! it's the back Taxes and interest.......


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