# Fall protection in attics.



## nolabama

I have a twitter account and the OSHA sends a "tweet" about the requirements of fall protection in an attic. Anyone ever wore a harness in an attic? Anyone make they guys wear a harness in an attic. Absurd? I have seen a guy fall thru a ceiling before and it messed him up real good for a few days. It was plaster and I think he was sleeping to be honest but he did fall to the floor.


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## B4T

Never heard of this.. has there been a rash of injuries and death from guys falling through drywall..:blink::blink:


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## BBQ

Interesting, the OSHA standards require a tie off point to be capable of supporting 5000 pounds.

Can't think of many dwelling units with places to tie off too that would meet that requirerment.


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## nolabama

Got a link 
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/working-in-attics-factsheet.pdf
It seems silly. I like the net part.


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## B4T

It says. "During residential construction".. so once you past that point you're good to go..


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> It says. "During residential construction".. so once you past that point you're good to go..


I agree that the handout sheet is aimed at new construction. 

But the actual standards apply to both new and old work.


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## B4T

BBQ said:


> I agree that the handout sheet is aimed at new construction.
> 
> But the actual standards apply to both new and old work.


They also put in a grey area without any standard to go by.. so why bother.. :blink:

_"The fall protection methods in this fact sheet *may not be suitable *in all situations. Employers are responsible for ensuring compliance with applicable OSHA requirements."_


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> They also put in a grey area without any standard to go by.. so why bother.. :blink:
> 
> _"The fall protection methods in this fact sheet *may not be suitable *in all situations. Employers are responsible for ensuring compliance with applicable OSHA requirements."_


Every hand out says that, But the standards are not gray. 

Be glad OSHA will not see you in an attic. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> It says. "During residential construction".. so once you past that point you're good to go..


....as far as residential construction is concerned.

Before issuing a blanket statement, you might want consider what the danger is.

In an attic of a finished dwelling unit, obviously falling through the ceiling is the danger.
The solution could be as simple as creating a work deck using planks or ripped plywood.

Saying "you're good to go" is rather callous approach, no?


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> ....as far as residential construction is concerned.
> 
> Before issuing a blanket statement, you might want consider what the danger is.
> 
> In an attic of a finished dwelling unit, obviously falling through the ceiling is the danger.
> The solution could be as simple as creating a work deck using planks or ripped plywood.
> 
> Saying "you're good to go" is rather callous approach, no?


This is the header.. how do you interpret it.. :blink::blink:

*Reducing Falls during Residential Construction: Working in Attics*

It say nothing about planking the floor..


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## nolabama

The article specifically talks about planking the space


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## electrictim510

Ill follow that guildeline the day I see an OSHA rep anywhere near my projects.


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> This is the header.. how do you interpret it.. :blink::blink:
> 
> *Reducing Falls during Residential Construction: Working in Attics*
> 
> It say nothing about planking the floor..


"Construction" is not the same as repairs, maintenance, etc. 
Many times, the task of repairs, maint., etc is actually more difficult than a clean install.

Planking off the floor would actually be a measure that surpasses OSHA's minimum standard.
Simply because "it doesn't say that" does not mean we stop thinking about ways to reduce injury/damage to property.

If you honestly think its better to do nothing to prevent an injury or damage to property, by all means carry on....just understand that what you deem safe for yourself may not be safe for others ~ or for employees where the owner has a responsibility to the employees otherwise [OSHA training, etc].

"You're good to go" may be good enough for "you", but not everyone.


IMHO, a sheet of plywood ripped a couple of times, used as a "portable floor", makes for a faster, more comfortable, safer install...which translates into more profit for me.


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## B4T

Celtic said:


> "Construction" is not the same as repairs, maintenance, etc.
> Many times, the task of repairs, maint., etc is actually more difficult than a clean install.
> 
> Planking off the floor would actually be a measure that surpasses OSHA's minimum standard.
> Simply because "it doesn't say that" does not mean we stop thinking about ways to reduce injury/damage to property.
> 
> If you honestly think its better to do nothing to prevent an injury or damage to property, by all means carry on....just understand that what you deem safe for yourself may not be safe for others ~ or for employees where the owner has a responsibility to the employees otherwise [OSHA training, etc].
> 
> "You're good to go" may be good enough for "you", but not everyone.
> 
> Reducing Falls during Residential
> Construction: Working in Attics
> Protecting workers from falls while working in attics can be challenging
> IMHO, a sheet of plywood ripped a couple of times, used as a "portable floor", makes for a faster, more comfortable, safer install...which translates into more profit for me.


I'm all for plywood in the attic.. using your knees on top of 1.5" beams is not fun.. even with knee pads on..


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## Celtic

B4T said:


> I'm all for plywood in the attic.. using your knees on top of 1.5" beams is not fun.. even with knee pads on..


...and it only feels better as you age :laughing:


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## Amish Electrician

Please note that this is not really a change at all ... the fall restraint rules only apply if the area is OPEN. That is, if they haven't hung the ceiling yet.

Though, to be honest .... I've been in plenty of commercial 'hard ceilings' wher I wish I could have hung a harness.


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## macmikeman

I wonder how Osha is going to get the surveilance drones to fly right into attics to check this stuff. They should stick to lead paint side jobs, that will be easier to drone.


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## Celtic

Why is it that some feel OSHA needs to be on high alert...it's YOUR safety.


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## BBQ

Amish Electrician said:


> Please note that this is not really a change at all ... the fall restraint rules only apply if the area is OPEN. That is, if they haven't hung the ceiling yet.


That is where it gets tricky, if what it is closed in with is not rated to support you fall protection would still be required. 

Drywall is not rated to support people.


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## kaboler

I guess I've seen 2 dangerous situations.

One was plaster, and it LOOKED like someone built an attic space that you could walk on, but really, it was just an inch of lathe and plaster, and it was never designed to be accessable. (old church)

Second was of course a few structures that had 4 foot on center truss design, which can be a bit of an annoyance to move around on.

As far as regular attic spaces, a person could fall and hurt themselves, and it has happened. We are just moving to a society where a person cannot ever get hurt on the job. But yes, there are a few houses with 30 or 40 foot falls in some areas if a person came through.

People can get killed falling 5 feet, so why not I guess.


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## Amish Electrician

Sorry, BBQ, that's not what the standard, or the provided pamphlet, says. All you need are planks, boards, or something else to be on. I suppose you might have a case if the drywall is all there is, but give us a single 1x12 the length of the attic and we're good to go!

Or, for that matter, bring along a couple bits of plywood. I even have had them made up: 32" x 24" x 5/8" quality plywood. Sure is easieron the knees!


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## BBQ

Amish Electrician said:


> Sorry, BBQ, that's not what the standard, or the provided pamphlet, says. All you need are planks, boards, or something else to be on. I suppose you might have a case if the drywall is all there is, but give us a single 1x12 the length of the attic and we're good to go!
> 
> Or, for that matter, bring along a couple bits of plywood. I even have had them made up: 32" x 24" x 5/8" quality plywood. Sure is easieron the knees!


So in your opinion OSHA would be fine with you walking along a plank 12" wide without protection?:laughing:


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## Celtic




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## Rochsolid

nolabama said:


> I have a twitter account and the OSHA sends a "tweet" about the requirements of fall protection in an attic. Anyone ever wore a harness in an attic? Anyone make they guys wear a harness in an attic. Absurd? I have seen a guy fall thru a ceiling before and it messed him up real good for a few days. It was plaster and I think he was sleeping to be honest but he did fall to the floor.


Our safety officer was trying to get us to tie off in a crawl space because it's a "confined space" but we went against him. If you were to become unconscious, I wouldn't want to be dragged through a crawl space, up and down and over everything else down there


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## uconduit

I been on a job site (light industrial) where fall protection was required in the "attic" space above the hard-lid ceilings and some guy was bright enough to test his weight and his luck on 1/2 inches of sheetrock and came crashing through. It must have looked like the an old Kool-AID commercial, with him busting through. My coworker was right there and said that the harness probably saved they guy from breaking his ankles.


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## RGH

...WE HAVE TO WEAR THE 6 POINT at work (my overbite gig)...hate it miss my old belt....it is safer but very cumbersome with all the damn clothes on....especially when on a lift...saftey first...but wish there was better system.


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## Celtic

Rochsolid said:


> If you were to become unconscious, I wouldn't want to be dragged through a crawl space, up and down and over everything else down there



You prefer the alternative?

Laying there unconscious, waiting for qualified and competent help to suit up and enter the confined area to perform either a rescue or a recovery....possibly the person "we went against ...".


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## jza

I maintain a very strict attic fall protection policy, it involves me standing at the hatch and my helper working in the attic.


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## Rochsolid

Celtic said:


> You prefer the alternative?
> 
> Laying there unconscious, waiting for qualified and competent help to suit up and enter the confined area to perform either a rescue or a recovery....possibly the person "we went against ...".


Yes I do


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## nolabama

Rochsolid said:


> Yes I do


Some folks prefer to be "thrown clear" in a car accident. I am not one of them.


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## Jlarson

Rochsolid said:


> Our safety officer was trying to get us to tie off in a crawl space because it's a "confined space" but we went against him. If you were to become unconscious, I wouldn't want to be dragged through a crawl space, up and down and over everything else down there


You would be kicked off site by customer's saftey people and then I'd have fired you if you were working for us.


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## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> You would be kicked off site by customer's saftey people and then I'd have fired you if you were working for us.


Pretty much the same here.


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## nolabama

Arguing about "confined space" will get you and your firm a quick exit from the property.


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## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> Pretty much the same here.





nolabama said:


> Arguing about "confined space" will get you and your firm a quick exit from the property.


Yeah. I may hate saftey BS but you can't run an industrial and utility outfit without adhering to things like confined space, hazmat and chemical saftey, 70E, fall protection, hot work permits and fire protection.


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## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> Yeah. I may hate saftey BS but you can't run an industrial and utility outfit without adhering to things like confined space, hazmat and chemical saftey, 70E, fall protection, hot work permits and fire protection.


Yeah, they really take all the fun out of things. 

We just got fined for one of our guys driving a Lull (telehandler) without proper training. 

The thing was the safety guy stopped him, asked him if he had a card for driving it, the guy said no and then kept driving.


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## Big John

We had one today. Go into a generator pit to split apart the leads. Pit is 4 feet deep. You can stand in it and be head and shoulders above the top. Did I feel a little silly putting on the harness and doing air sampling before hopping down there? Sure. But at the same time, crawling under that generator was definitely a confined space where no one could get to me: If for some reason there was an oxygen deficiency in the bottom of that pit, I would be in just as much trouble as if the pit was 40 feet deep.

Many of these rules exist for a reason.

-John


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## nolabama

That generator location sounds like an "adjacent space".


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## Big John

nolabama said:


> That generator location sounds like an "adjacent space".


 Never heard that one before. Maybe it's not be something that applies to utilities...?

-John


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## Rochsolid

Jlarson said:


> You would be kicked off site by customer's saftey people and then I'd have fired you if you were working for us.


Crawl space is not a confined space. That is why we never wore the harness


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## Jbird66

I had an "old timer" tell me one time. We have a strict safety policy.

"If you fall off that ladder you are fired before you hit the ground!"


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## Big John

Rochsolid said:


> Crawl space is not a confined space. That is why we never wore the harness


 You sure about that? I've been in places with spiral staircases that were permit confined spaces. Appearances can be deceiving.

-John


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## BBQ

Rochsolid said:


> Crawl space is not a confined space.


It is not up to the employee to make that determination.


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## Rochsolid

BBQ said:


> It is not up to the employee to make that determination.


I'm well aware of the protocol, we never made that determination, our safety company did


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## nolabama

Big John said:


> Never heard that one before. Maybe it's not be something that applies to utilities...?
> 
> -John


http://nfpa.typepad.com/nfpablog/2012/12/another-adjacent-space-confined-space-fatality.html

I am such a nerd. I get NFPA tweets. Lol.


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## Jlarson

Big John said:


> You sure about that? I've been in places with spiral staircases that were permit confined spaces. Appearances can be deceiving.


Crawl spaces always have been permitted at the few plants that have them for us. The definitely can meet the definition IMO. 



Big John said:


> Never heard that one before. Maybe it's not be something that applies to utilities...?


When we have guys tending to entries outside of tanks, spaces in chemical plants... they wear personal gas moniters too.


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## Celtic

Celtic said:


> You prefer the alternative?
> 
> Laying there unconscious, waiting for qualified and competent help to suit up and enter the confined area to perform either a rescue or a recovery....possibly the person "we went against ...".





Rochsolid said:


> Yes I do


Thats pretty selfish ...don't ya think?

You do not want to comply....now someone else may have to go retrieve your corpse and inform your family that you expired....because you "...went against..".

WTG hero:no:


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## Celtic

Rochsolid said:


> I'm well aware of the protocol, we never made that determination, our safety company did





Rochsolid said:


> Our safety officer was trying to get us to tie off in a crawl space because it's a "confined space" but we went against him. If you were to become unconscious, I wouldn't want to be dragged through a crawl space, up and down and over everything else down there


Well, which is it?


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## TOOL_5150

Ive never even heard of tying off in an attic. that's almost ridiculous, wait, no, it is. Never have, never will, go ahead and fire me.


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## Jlarson

BBQ said:


> The thing was the safety guy stopped him, asked him if he had a card for driving it, the guy said no and then kept driving.


That deserves this smiley







and this one


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## BBQ

nolabama said:


> R6dm9rN6oTs
> I am such a nerd. I get NFPA tweets. Lol.



:nerd::nerd::nerd::nerd:


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## Rochsolid

Celtic said:


> Thats pretty selfish ...don't ya think?
> 
> You do not want to comply....now someone else may have to go retrieve your corpse and inform your family that you expired....because you "...went against..".
> 
> WTG hero:no:


Are you ****ing kidding me? I am complying. Maybe you can't read? Believe it or not, but we discuss safety with our safety officer, don't just do what he says. They don't know everything, like this crawlspace thing.


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## Big John

nolabama said:


> http://nfpa.typepad.com/nfpablog/2012/12/another-adjacent-space-confined-space-fatality.html


 From what I see it looks like it only applies to shipyard work, not that it isn't a universally good idea.

Either way, in my case, I was belly-crawling way back under that stupid generator, so there's no question in my mind it was a confined space.

-John


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## Jeff000

kaboler said:


> We are just moving to a society where a person cannot ever get hurt on the job.


I'm not sure about you, but I enjoy coming home to my family every day after work, as I am sure they enjoy me coming home. 




electrictim510 said:


> Ill follow that guildeline the day I see an OSHA rep anywhere near my projects.


That's a terrible way of thinking. I'm glad I work in an industry that drives for safety excellence. I know many people like you, they are the ones with a gimped finger or two, or that nasty limp, or whatever else. 
And all them could have been prevented had simple rules been followed. Just because you have done it for 40 years and never hurt yourself doesn't mean today isn't the day that something unexpected happens. 




Rochsolid said:


> Our safety officer was trying to get us to tie off in a crawl space because it's a "confined space" but we went against him. If you were to become unconscious, I wouldn't want to be dragged through a crawl space, up and down and over everything else down there


I'd much rather come out bruised and cut up a bit over being dead. I'd fire you for going against what the safety officer told you. 




RGH said:


> ...WE HAVE TO WEAR THE 6 POINT at work (my overbite gig)...hate it miss my old belt....it is safer but very cumbersome with all the damn clothes on....especially when on a lift...saftey first...but wish there was better system.


The better system is to have the harness done up properly, I have worn a harness for probably 1500 hours in the last year, and never once thought the harness was cumbersome. The lanyard get's in the way sometimes, but never the harness. 
Most people wear the harness incorrectly, because it's more comfortable or whatever reason they have. 
I've seen what falling with a harness that isn't done up properly can do first hand. I'd rather avoid that.


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## Cletis

Is this thread serious or are you just trolling ?


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## nolabama

Cletis said:


> Is this thread serious or are you just trolling ?


Both.


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## Big John

nolabama said:


> Both.


 Strolling?


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## Cletis

When I read title I thought for sure it was one of my threads I must have forgot I posted, or maybe chris1971's


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## nolabama

I actually saw the OSHA tweet, thought it was absurd and decided a little trollen was in order.


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