# Barn wiring mess, and "Distribution Point"



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I looked at a barn yesterday (several, actually), and they asked for a quote on some work. I've attached a seriously crude sketch of the distribution. 
.
This is not a commercial agricultural operation. It's a family deal, an older couple with a small amount of livestock mainly as pets, including (1) goat, (1) horse, (?) chickens, (4-6) cows, and (1) pot-bellied pig named Wilbur. A donkey passed away the night before I got there, so he doesn't count. The barns are good sized, and quite roomy, I would think, for this quantity of animals. On a close look, the wiring is a nightmare.

Distribution, generally: 

HOUSE breaker panel -> Barn A 
underground, looks like URD or some kind of aluminum triplex, in EMT where visible, on double-pole 50-amp breaker in house panel
At building A, terminates in 6" PVC j-box on outside wall of A. no breakers in barn A or thereafter.
GFCI receptacle in additional box mounted on J-box.
Cable connected to GFCI load terminals feeds through wall to inside of A, and then feeds several lights, switches, and receptacles, all wired on 14ga UF. 

Barn A -> Barn B
Same kind of feeder as from house to A, in EMT where visible. 
Terminates at B in 6" PVC j-box on outside of building.
GFCI receptacle in additional box mounted on J-box.
Cable connected to GFCI load terminals feeds through wall to inside of B, and there feeds several lights, switches, and receptacles, all wired on 14ga UF. 

Barn A -> Henhouse 
Additional cable connected at barn A j-box, when I got there connected to line side of GFCI, feeds to detached henhouse via 1/2" EMT barely buried and obviously in poor condition.

The GFCI receptacle on A had been damaged due to water. Replaced it, reconnected henhouse to GFCI load; tripped. Left henhouse disconnected. 

I realize, and told them, that there's a whole lot of problems here, the worst being a whole lot of 14ga wire on a 50-amp breaker, using the ground for a neutral. 

Told them 
1) they need small outdoor breaker panel on barn A, instead of the j-box, with proper grounding, feeder configured for 120volts and an insulated neutral, and 15-amp breakers for each building, as all the "branch circuit" wiring was only rated for 15 amps.
2) there's a ground-fault on the henhouse line, either "underground" or in the henhouse, that has to be located and corrected. Also, the "underground" line needs to be underground.

I am completely open to any comments and/or suggestions. Please.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

small sub panels inside buildings and disconnects outside, proper grounding,
proper conduit, and buried to the proper depth

disconnects on each building will allow for isolation of the buildings electrical system without cutting power to all of them


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Unless you have an area walled off, you'll need to keep the panel(s) on the exterior of the building(s) Sounds like a mess! I don't know if it will make any difference if it's a commercial operation or not. You'll probably still have to go by Article 547. How much do they want to spend??? Do you need to bring it up to code? Here's how I'd do it:

100 amp 3R panel mounted on the exterior of Barn A with properly sized 4-wire feed from house panel and 2- ground rods. 
The other outbuildings could be fed from this panel. You could get by with a SP switch on the other buildings for your service disconnect if all you're going to have is one 120 volt circuit going to them. Otherwise you'll need 4-wire feed to each building with a 3R panel mounted on the exterior.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I agree with the others , with one inclusion.

There's usually no _'saving'_ farm wiring Mike.

~CS~


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mikewillnot said:


> I looked at a barn yesterday (several, actually), and they asked for a quote on some work. I've attached a seriously crude sketch of the distribution.
> .
> This is not a commercial agricultural operation. It's a family deal, an older couple with a small amount of livestock mainly as pets, including (1) goat, (1) horse, (?) chickens, (4-6) cows, and (1) pot-bellied pig named Wilbur. A donkey passed away the night before I got there, so he doesn't count. The barns are good sized, and quite roomy, I would think, for this quantity of animals. On a close look, the wiring is a nightmare.
> 
> ...


Question to you. Do you see anything wrong?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Question to you. Do you see anything wrong?


 
Al vs Cu !!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dronai said:


> Al vs Cu !!


What's the problem with Al?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> What's the problem with Al?


underground/overhead We can't use it here


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dronai said:


> underground ? We can't use it.


Why, that is the safest place to use it?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

emt , al , N&G , ocpd's , gfci, gec, ecg... 

~C_eeeeiiiiiieeeeeiiiiiiooooOOOooooo_S~


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Why, that is the safest place to use it?


Enforcement, besides it's the terminations that are the problem.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dronai said:


> Enforcement, besides it's the terminations that are the problem.


There is not a thing wrong with the proper termination of aluminum conductors.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> There is not a thing wrong with the proper termination of aluminum conductors.


I'm sure you used that all over the Ford plant


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dronai said:


> I'm sure you used those all over the Ford plant


I am a little older and I can spot a "non answer".


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I not a big fan of AL, ok

Now you don't dodge the question. I worked at Toyota, and AL was not allowed


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dronai said:


> I not a big fan of AL, ok
> 
> Now you don't dodge the question. I worked at Toyota, and AL was not allowed


I agree with you. Aluminum, as a conductor is very good. However, Copper is very much more "forgiving" in installation..


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> Question to you. Do you see anything wrong?


Riveter, I assume you were directing that to me, the OP.
I see a dozen or two things wrong, easily, all over the place -- like chicken steve. I didn't post this because I thought everything was A-OK. 

I'm just trying to find an approach that will get the biggest bang for the buck for them in terms of making it safer, for people who undoubtedly can't afford to do it strictly by the book. 

They're not some major dairy operation; they're not going to get rid of their animals; and they're seriously not going to just turn off the power to their animals' houses because I say there's bad wiring. They want affordable solutions, or at least improvement.

And aluminum is permitted underground here, if it's installed correctly and if it's the right kind of wire and if... etc etc.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mikewillnot said:


> Riveter, I assume you were directing that to me, the OP.
> I see a dozen or two things wrong, easily, all over the place -- like chicken steve. I didn't post this because I thought everything was A-OK.
> 
> I'm just trying to find an approach that will get the biggest bang for the buck for them in terms of making it safer, for people who undoubtedly can't afford to do it strictly by the book.
> ...


To EVERYONE...not just you; If they can't afford to do it "By the book", don't do it. If you want to give free labor that is noble, but don't compromise yourself...your family , and your reputation by doing what is non-conformal.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I just learned, by reading 547.10, on equipotential planes, that "For the purposes of this section, the term _livestock_ shall not include poultry." :blink:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mikewillnot said:


> I just learned, by reading 547.10, on equipotential planes, that "For the purposes of this section, the term _livestock_ shall not include poultry." :blink:


We, as a people are at the mercy of our own previous definitions. Cows, bison, deer, elk, antelope have always been defined as Livestock. Poultry, for some reason was defined in 1812 and somehow does not pertain to four footed animals.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mikewillnot said:


> I just learned, by reading 547.10, on equipotential planes, that "For the purposes of this section, the term _livestock_ shall not include poultry." :blink:






> 547.1
> (I) Poultry and animal excrement may cause corrosive va-
> pors.


_translation>_ i fart in their general direction....~C:jester:S~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> To EVERYONE...not just you; If they can't afford to do it "By the book", don't do it. If you want to give free labor that is noble, but don't compromise yourself...your family , and your reputation by doing what is non-conformal.



Nobody, not _one_ sparky here , installs 100% _'by the book' _Rivet

If you doubt me, post you best work here....:whistling2:


That said, as an EC i've been asked many times to _'tune up'_ , eradicate the _'bigger evils' _and/or address the _'obvious hazards' _

Farms are notoriously the worst , employing fixes that make Cletus look like Einstein

Often we (as sparkys) provide them with the electrical means to grow more livestock , along with facilitating more electrical tag-ons to whatever we've installed 

We are , unless solicited from the ground up, never really _done_ at a farm.

This is why _all _my farm calls come with _some _inclusion in the invoicing towards incompletion, deficient, undeveloped, inadequate , etc....

~CS~


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Nobody, not _one_ sparky here , installs 100% _'by the book' _Rivet
> 
> If you doubt me, post you best work here....:whistling2:
> 
> ...



C S ! I can't believe you couldn't find a song to fit this thread !!!

Are you losing it !!!! :whistling2:

:laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*This old poster makes it on time
Leaves ascii Statio at a quarter to nine
Hits ET Junction at seventeen to at a quarter to ten
you know it's trav'lin again

Readin'' that thread High on caffeine
Chickenman you better watch your screed
Trouble ahead Trouble behind
and you know that notion
roasts my behind*

~C_(w/apologies to the GD)_S~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

wendon said:


> *Unless you have an area walled off, you'll need to keep the panel(s) on the exterior of the building(s)* Sounds like a mess! I don't know if it will make any difference if it's a commercial operation or not. You'll probably still have to go by Article 547. How much do they want to spend??? Do you need to bring it up to code? Here's how I'd do it:
> 
> 100 amp 3R panel mounted on the exterior of Barn A with properly sized 4-wire feed from house panel and 2- ground rods.
> The other outbuildings could be fed from this panel. You could get by with a SP switch on the other buildings for your service disconnect if all you're going to have is one 120 volt circuit going to them. Otherwise you'll need 4-wire feed to each building with a 3R panel mounted on the exterior.


I did some digging, where does the NEC mandate this? I can't find it.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Mshow1323 said:


> I did some digging, where does the NEC mandate this? I can't find it.


547.5 (C) If you use the proper enclosure, you can install it in the barn. Not worth the cost.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Nobody, not _one_ sparky here , installs 100% _'by the book' _Rivet
> 
> If you doubt me, post you best work here....:whistling2:
> 
> ...


So you are comfortable with saving nice family oriented farmers a few bucks even if some non- conforming work turns up to be suspicious when the forensic investigators show up after a fire.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

No. The whole mess is already seriously non-conforming. I'm comfortable providing conforming safety improvements carefully selected to maximize cost-effectiveness.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> So you are comfortable with saving nice family oriented farmers a few bucks even if some non- conforming work turns up to be suspicious when the forensic investigators show up after a fire.


Are you Riv?

here's one for you, local preacher & scout leader has his best eagle scouts _'help'_ me run all the MC in his church on main st.

i pulled the permit, documented it all, even had my ahj in on it

guess _who_ got called after the fire....

Nice guys finish last Riv. 

~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

When I give people the option of aluminum over copper they take aluminum 99% of the time.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

*I Knew It !*



chicken steve said:


> *This old poster makes it on time
> Leaves ascii Statio at a quarter to nine
> Hits ET Junction at seventeen to at a quarter to ten
> you know it's trav'lin again
> ...






Congrats , C.S. I knew you could do it ! :thumbup: 





Never mind Poet Laureate !!! I M O we should adopt C S as our resident 

Lyricist Laureate ! :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Congrats , C.S. I knew you could do it ! :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea but who wants to adopt a headless, plagiaristic chicken? :laughing:
Now if he looked like this guy............:whistling2:


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I still wonder if a sub-panel on an outbuilding is a "distribution point" under 540 as it's not on a pole. the description of a DP seems to be for a whole property, in which case a pole kind of location would make sense. This is a sub panel off a distribution point. maybe a "sub-distribution-point."


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So whaddidja do for these folks Mike?

~CS~


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## J F Go (Mar 1, 2014)

I recall doing a barn,some years ago,and I think that art. 547 does not allow alum wire for any part of the service,weather its the MD or any sub-panel no matter its location. Like others here have said,be careful what you do because you are the one responsible for it once you touch it (like it or not).You may want to get the AHJ involved as he may be able to help both you and the homeowner. They are there to help,believe it or not.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

J F Go said:


> I recall doing a barn,some years ago,and I think that art. 547 does not allow alum wire for any part of the service,weather its the MD or any sub-panel no matter its location. Like others here have said,be careful what you do because you are the one responsible for it once you touch it (like it or not).You may want to get the AHJ involved as he may be able to help both you and the homeowner. They are there to help,believe it or not.


No aluminum inside the buildings used for housing cattle etc.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

mikewillnot said:


> "distribution point" under 540


I meant 547. 
To date, I've mainly done troubleshooting and repairs (about 10 of them) and added a couple of lights. I've convinced them to put in a good sub-panel at barn A, the "sub-distribution-point" approach, with branch CBs (properly sized OCP) for each individual building. I'm thinking I'll probably reconfigure the feeder (and the subpanel) for 120v, to gain an insulated neutral back to the main distribution center. I'm leaning towards using GFCI breakers, or possibly dual function (GFCI and AFCI) breakers in the sub-panel, for good measure. I'm then going to configure each of the separate buildings with its own local clearly labeled disconnect switch.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm also going to add a new ground rod (actually two at the sub-panel) and EGC at each building. I will also officially recommend that they replace their underground feeders with properly buried lines of the proper type. I don't expect that part of the job will be in this year's budget though.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> I recall doing a barn,some years ago,and I think that art. 547 does not allow alum wire for any part of the service,weather its the MD or any sub-panel no matter its location.


In the 2011 NEC, 547.5(A) says "Types UF, NMC, copper SE cables, jacketed Type MC cable... shall be the wiring methods employed." This doesn't seem to address the service to the building, just the methods employed within the building/facility, or from the "distribution point" on. Hence my interest in the definition of "distribution point." 

This site has aluminum triplex, I believe URD, from house (main dist) to barn A, and from barn A to barn B. The rest of the cable itself is clearly compliant. The way I read it, from House to A aluminum is probably permitted, but if I configure the line from A to B as a branch circuit of the subpanel on A, then it's not. Hmmmmmm.

There is one other relevant section I could find: 
"547.5(F) Separate EGC.
Where an EGC is installed *within* a location falling under the scope of Article 547, it shall be a copper conductor. Where an EGC is installed underground, it shall be insulated or covered copper." (emphasis added)
Once I install the sub-panel on barn A and define it as a "distribution point," then it seems that would apply to the feeder from barn A to barn B.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

mikewillnot said:


> In the 2011 NEC, 547.5(A) says "Types UF, NMC, copper SE cables, jacketed Type MC cable... shall be the wiring methods employed." This doesn't seem to address the service to the building, just the methods employed within the building/facility, or from the "distribution point" on. Hence my interest in the definition of "distribution point."
> 
> This site has aluminum triplex, I believe URD, from house (main dist) to barn A, and from barn A to barn B. The rest of the cable itself is clearly compliant. The way I read it, from House to A aluminum is probably permitted, but if I configure the line from A to B as a branch circuit of the subpanel on A, then it's not. Hmmmmmm.
> 
> ...


A lot of the older agriculture installs around here have a pole top disconnect used as the main site disconnect. Most of the new ones are grade level. With the layout you're describing, I don't think you technical have a distribution point. Normally you'd have a main yard pole or grade level service and all the buildings would feed from that point. The aluminum URD shouldn't be a problem it you're terminating it outside of the building.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

This is not the first small farm I've seen set up like this: one service drop from utility to the house, with subfeed from there to the barn(s). Where does the house end, and the agricultural facility begin?


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> Where does the house end, and the agricultural facility begin?


I know! Ask the lady of the house. She'll probably say, "at the porch."


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

mikewillnot said:


> This is not the first small farm I've seen set up like this: one service drop from utility to the house, with subfeed from there to the barn(s). Where does the house end, and the agricultural facility begin?


Some would probably argue but I'd say it begins where you enter the building in an area that is described in 547.1 (A) and (B) 

547.5 (F) states that if the ECG is installed *within *an area that falls under 547, it needs to be copper.


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## J F Go (Mar 1, 2014)

Premise served, I believe is what you have missed. I think sometimes we spin things the way we want to see them. IMHO with all the questions you seem to have I would re-read art 547 and then speak to an AHJ for their spin,see'ins how its their spin that counts.Livestock does not fair well when shocked. I wish you good luck and I hope you lets us know what you end up doing. Work smarter not harder and stay safe.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

J F Go said:


> Premise served, I believe is what you have missed. I think sometimes we spin things the way we want to see them. IMHO with all the questions you seem to have I would re-read art 547 and then speak to an AHJ for their spin,see'ins how its their spin that counts.Livestock does not fair well when shocked. I wish you good luck and I hope you lets us know what you end up doing. Work smarter not harder and stay safe.


547.1 Scope

The provisions of this article shall apply to the following agricultural buildings *or that part of a building or adjacent areas of similar or like nature as specified in 547.1 (A) or (B)*

Let the AHJ sort this out.......:whistling2:


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

I just "no bid" a farm without even looking at it.

There is no definition of a farm in the NEC. And 547 says very little except check a dictionary. So, if mama has two chickens and a few tomato plants..is it a farm?

My major concern is the pole mounted Site Isolation Device which seems like a royal pain in the butt.

The 2014 Handbook excluded exhibit 547.2 which was a little easier to digest and more in-line with the OP's sketch. Hope it's still legal.


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