# What size service would you call this?



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I see a lot of the old round Meter bases. I was trained to consider these 65A systems. This one was connected to a 100A unpermitted panel.

I have been told that service to the Round bases can be-classified as up to 100A by the utility... Occasionally I will see them connected to a brand new (unpermitted) 200A panel.

And yes, In places you can see the Neutral Shield poking through the SE cable... I flagged that as well.

If you were asked to "inspect" one of these, what would you write as the Service capacity? Would you call it 65A, 100A, unknown, dangerous


----------



## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

The 60 amp round meter bases had 1" pipe, the 100 amp rounds had 1-1/4" pipe. There is also the difference in how the wires are connected.


----------



## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> I see a lot of the old round Meter bases. I was trained to consider these 65A systems. This one was connected to a 100A unpermitted panel.
> 
> I have been told that service to the Round bases can be-classified as up to 100A by the utility... Occasionally I will see them connected to a brand new (unpermitted) 200A panel.
> 
> ...



More likely a 60 service. What size main breaker, fuses or service entrance conductors?


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

The Panel had been replaced (without permits) and now had a NEW 100A main.

Supporting a new Electric Dryer, Electric Range, and oversized AC unit.
(Used to be All gas with no AC)


----------



## Jack Legg (Mar 12, 2014)

you should list unknown in your report unless you can identify the service conductor type, and size.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

I think most of those round bases are actually rated for 100 amps. I wouldn't assume the rating of anything based on its shape. You know what they say when you assume something?


----------



## niteshift (Nov 21, 2007)

Likes been said, more then likely it is a 60 amp base. 
There are also *30* amp round meterbases out here in Md. 
Nothing should be attached to the SE. (cable, telephone...)


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

most of the old round meter bases have #6 ser or similarcable feeding them. no matter what the poco is feeding it with its still a 60a service. therefore a 100a panel is just giving them more room and saftey(as opposed to the old fuse srevices) but rarely are they done right. and never do they give you 100a service!:no:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most of them originally powered a main range & four w/60's here>










btw, it musta been a foolish or brave dude who yanked it for the panel swap

those meters are dangerous, worse with some rust/corrosion....

~CS~


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

How about the minimum-wage guy who probably did the meter swap? Those guys do 4-8 meters an hour. They work for some PoCo sub-contractor, and all they do is meter swap outs. They don't care about anything they see, they just replace meters. Saw a brand new meter on a very corroded & loose 60A base, with a really frayed & exposed SE drop. 

In our neighborhood, the guy walked house to house with a shoulder bag-o-meters. At least in the NEWER meter boxes there is a bypass lever that takes the load off/away from the meter. In those old units, the meter is HOT (and probably corroded in).

No gloves, mixed fiber short sleeve shirt, sunglasses (oh yea, that's another discussion)


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Big Pickles said:


> The 60 amp round meter bases had 1" pipe, the 100 amp rounds had 1-1/4" pipe. There is also the difference in how the wires are connected.


The wires are connected different??


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Sisson said:


> I see a lot of the old round Meter bases. I was trained to consider these 65A systems. This one was connected to a 100A unpermitted panel.
> 
> I have been told that service to the Round bases can be-classified as up to 100A by the utility... Occasionally I will see them connected to a brand new (unpermitted) 200A panel.
> 
> ...


Your concern here isn't the ampere rating of the meter socket. Your concern is that the panel was replaced without permits or inspections. Unless there is an inspection report on the panel replacement, there isn't validation of code compliancy. 

I can't speak for your jurisdiction but you're in that sketchy area between electrical code and utility standards. I spoke with our own utility here last week. The job had an old, cast meter socket. The utility said that, if I replaced the conductors feeding the panel, I had to upgrade the meter socket. That's _their_ policy.

Sometimes it's difficult for "one size fits all" and it depends on the job. I know that doesn't answer your question...


----------



## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> The wires are connected different??


Should say the lugs are different.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Bob Sisson said:


> How about the minimum-wage guy who probably did the meter swap? Those guys do 4-8 meters an hour. They work for some PoCo sub-contractor, and all they do is meter swap outs. They don't care about anything they see, they just replace meters. Saw a brand new meter on a very corroded & loose 60A base, with a really frayed & exposed SE drop.
> 
> In our neighborhood, the guy walked house to house with a shoulder bag-o-meters. At least in the NEWER meter boxes there is a bypass lever that takes the load off/away from the meter. In those old units, the meter is HOT (and probably corroded in).
> 
> No gloves, mixed fiber short sleeve shirt, sunglasses (oh yea, that's another discussion)


Nail/Head Bob.

The utilities always sub out, and the subs are hands down a hazard.

The whole smart meter swap gave us more crisis management biz than i'd seen for a while here.

I also noted a lot of incidents where those subs, caught read handed in some debauchery, were really hot to _'pay cash,instead of going the ins.route_' 

I guess we're talking lowest bidders....


~CS~


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob Sisson said:


> ...
> If you were asked to "inspect" one of these, what would you write as the Service capacity? Would you call it 65A, 100A, unknown, dangerous


I think I would base it on the wire size of the SE riser if that wire is rated at less than 100 amps per the code rules.


----------



## cortez (Oct 23, 2011)

*meter changer is clueless*

My meter was recently changed into a "smart meter". The installer was a young 20 something on minimum wage. 

I was there to over- see the change and while talking to the "technician" he revealed that he did not know the difference between a copper wire and an aluminum one. 

I was asking him all sorts of electrical questions and he was completely bereft of any electrical knowledge. 

They are trained to change meters and that is that! 

The only other skill he had was to crimp the new meter tag and jot down the number of the meter.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

This what was connected to one of the recently upgraded "Smart Meters".

Nothing some Friction Tape couldn't fix (according to the Realtor)

And they wondered why there was rust in the Panel box below...


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

funny you should mention that. i opened a panel today that had a puddle in the bottom, but it was in rigid. outside i found the lb gasket was shot, probly from the deck being built right up to it!


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd like to wrap most the realtors i deal with in friction tape.....~C:jester:S~


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Had seen one of those abase 60 services cloth cable all falling off at a farm where they wanted me to feed another barn. They already had a barn and house fed from the load side of the meter.


----------



## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> I'd like to wrap most the realtors i deal with in friction tape.....~C:jester:S~


Same here they all think everything is a quick fix. Had one here thinking someone could fix a home full of knob and tube and blown in insulation for around 1500. Said if it cost any more than that the buyer seller realtors would have to get involved.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I love realtors. They know nothing and when you explain things they usually go for it. I do a ton of work because of home inspections. It takes a bit more paperwork but most of the time they need it done before closing so they don't shop it around much.


----------



## mikeblas (May 7, 2008)

Can you deduce anything from the meter base alone? What if it's a remote current tap?


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

I only see remote current sensors on LARGE (600A and larger) homes... never seen one of them on <400A.

Most of the "What size is it?" questions are on older homes with round meters where the service drop is so worn you are not sure what size it is (from the oustside) We don't pull meters, or get too close to live stuff...

Occasionally we will see small square bases in the 100-150A range, then the rest are 150>>200A per feed to the panelboards, and those are easy.

When it gets interesting is when you have a small round meter base with a really worn and frayed drop, and a worn cloth covered cable to the BRAND NEW 200A SquareD. panel with no approvals, stickers or permits. You know it isn't "right" but you would like to know just how wrong is it...is it a 60A drop, 100A, 125, etc... so you can explain to your client that they essentially have the entire house plugged into an "extension cord" that isn't heavy enough...that they understand... When they turn on the Electric Range, The Electric Dryer, the oversized AC unit, and the Electric water heater kicks in, they may be out of juice...and they may experience their own personal "brown out"

When those houses were originally built, there was no AC, the furnace was gas, the water heater was gas, they dryer was a clothesline, there were no microwaves, hair dryers, etc... so 60A was plenty... not so much now... Flippers come in and replace everything with Electric (because it is easier) take out the fuse box (4-6 fuses) and put in a Big-Box Shiny new Panel with a 200A disco... Replace every outlet in the house with a 3-wire, drop in a few new outlets in the kitchen...you know the story... and then put it up for sale with nice new shiny appliances...


----------



## mikeblas (May 7, 2008)

Bob Sisson said:


> I only see remote current sensors on LARGE (600A and larger) homes... never seen one of them on <400A.


They're popular around here. Or, they were for a while in homes built in the 1970s.



Bob Sisson said:


> When those houses were originally built, there was no AC, the furnace was gas, the water heater was gas, they dryer was a clothesline, there were no microwaves, hair dryers, etc...


Perhaps it's because gas wasn't always popular in the pacific northwest, and hydro was cheap and available.


----------



## Bob Sisson (Dec 17, 2012)

In my area (mid-Atlantic) a lot or the suburban houses were all Gas. Rural houses were Oil for heating and propane for cooking, and again you don't need much to run an oil-burner or a gas stove.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Flippers became a national biz after the housing bust. 

They'll literally fly in low wage help and hit/run a job w/o permits hard and fast , do anything outside last to stay under radar, and skip town.

The realtors follow suit with their pack of lies, and the state inspectors are powerless past our boarders.....

~CS~


----------

