# Question about apprenticeship and community college course.



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If it satisfies the State requirement for classroom hours, maybe. Ideally your employer would take care of the cost of apprenticeship classes or help. The idea with this is you are working towards completing the number of hours you need to become a licensed journeyman during the day and a few days a week you take the classes at night and typically both requirements are fulfilled within four years. The college courses aren't a waste, but the idea is not to rack up a bunch of debt when you could accomplish the same thing for much less and be done quicker. Everyone starts from no experience unless you worked with a family member. Get out there and knock on some doors. Work at a supply house if you have to for a period of time. At least you're meeting people in the trade and learning about the business and product.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I can’t believe EC aren’t hiring. I’m retired and my phone was ringing at 6:30 this morning with a former customer asking who he could call.


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

You really need to figure out how* your state* runs apprenticeships.

Here, you don't get access to apprenticeship training school until you're employed as a registered apprentice. Anything you can take before employment is just for skills to help your employability.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

If your just out of school then look into STEM in your area.





Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math, including Computer Science | U.S. Department of Education







www.ed.gov





A bit of a story for you. I was an electrical qualifying party for 10 years in Arizona. I took the test and passed to be an electrical contractor. Some years later the idiots in charge of a Federal prison training program would not accept the copy of my state license provided by the state. They wanted the original. Needless to say after 20 some years that piece of paper was gone.

A piece of paper on the wall is fine, you need the education. The people who hire you mostly will not give a damn about paper. They want to know can you assemble, bend pipe, pull wire, show up on time day after day, STRAIGHT! They make money off you because the work gets done.

Not knowing how YOUR state laws are set up makes specifics impossible.


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## Gavinw5 (7 mo ago)

u2slow said:


> You really need to figure out how* your state* runs apprenticeships. Here, you don't get access to apprenticeship training school until you're employed as a registered apprentice. Anything you can take before employment is just for skills to help your employability.


 I’m in Oregon as far as employability and stuff certificates or training programs can help in the point system it seems but tend to cost thousands and personally seem worthless otherwise. There’s a college offering an actual degree that says it’s open enrollment to the public but currently trying to figure out if it actually is or if it’s just for people already working for registered employers.


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## Gavinw5 (7 mo ago)

If it satisfies the State requirement for classroom hours, maybe. Ideally your employer would take care of the cost of apprenticeship classes or help. The idea with this is you are working towards completing the number of hours you need to become a licensed journeyman during the day and a few days a week you take the classes at night and typically both requirements are fulfilled within four years. The college courses aren't a waste, but the idea is not to rack up a bunch of debt when you could accomplish the same thing for much less and be done quicker. Everyone starts from no experience unless you worked with a family member. Get out there and knock on some doors. Work at a supply house if you have to for a period of time. At least you're meeting people in the trade and learning about the business and product.
[/QUOTE]
thanks for all the pointers and debt is the last thing I want at my age or any age haha. I’ll knock on some doors and see what I can find supply house or a material handler wouldn’t be bad and would probably be enough to get me into a program. Appreciate the reply man!


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Gavinw5 said:


> I’m in Oregon as far as employability and stuff certificates or training programs can help in the point system it seems but tend to cost thousands and personally seem worthless otherwise. There’s a college offering an actual degree that says it’s open enrollment to the public but currently trying to figure out if it actually is or if it’s just for people already working for registered employers.


We have a gov't run apprenticeship authority that spells it all out. I dunno what you have in Oregon. No such thing as a 'degree' for a trade here.

Best advantage i had to start my apprenticeship was I had worked as a labourer on a construction site before.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

As others have said, *find out what the state requirements are where you live FIRST*. Doing otherwise is wasting time and money, and you won't gain a dam thing doing otherwise. I would implore you to forget the idea as a newbie, of enrolling in any college classes. Trade education is gained in the field, not in school, especially starting out green. Field time is what counts for apprenticeship, journeyman and master. Don't try and cut corners, it will cost you a great chunk of time.

I would tell you to pound the pavement in your area, visit contractors in your area *in person* and ask for a starting job doing whatever they need done. Be clean, well rested, bright, alert and honest, tell them what your goals are and your willing to start as a helper, to prove that you have the desire to do what it takes. I have recommended this to guys working in plants that wanted to work for me, but that lived too far away for that to be feasible and various other reasons. It worked great for them and they could use me for a reference if needed.

Once you get a taste of your first employer, then you will be better equipped to decide if the trade is all you dreamed it to be. If you then decide that you like it enough to stick with it, then take some night classes at your local community college. The inspectors in your area might teach some classes on nights or weekends, or may even know of contractors in your area that are looking for help. International Association of Electrical Inspectors Learn to do your own self study on the areas and things your working with and interested with as you go. Buy some used books on ebay instead of accumulating college debt that wont help you cut out the required field time.

If you need further convincing about college classes, to help you cut corners, read up on these sorry diatribes for a fine example.

Employer Wont Register me as a apprentice

Unlicensed apprentices ontario canada

Best of luck to you, keep your eyes on the prize, and your nose to the grindstone.


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## Gavinw5 (7 mo ago)

CMP said:


> As others have said, *find out what the state requirements are where you live FIRST*. Doing otherwise is wasting time and money, and you won't gain a dam thing doing otherwise. I would implore you to forget the idea as a newbie, of enrolling in any college classes. Trade education is gained in the field, not in school, especially starting out green. Field time is what counts for apprenticeship, journeyman and master. Don't try and cut corners, it will cost you a great chunk of time. I would tell you to pound the pavement in your area, visit contractors in your area *in person* and ask for a starting job doing whatever they need done. Be clean, well rested, bright, alert and honest, tell them what your goals are and your willing to start as a helper, to prove that you have the desire to do what it takes. I have recommended this to guys working in plants that wanted to work for me, but that lived too far away for that to be feasible and various other reasons. It worked great for them and they could use me for a reference if needed. Once you get a taste of your first employer, then you will be better equipped to decide if the trade is all you dreamed it to be. If you then decide that you like it enough to stick with it, then take some night classes at your local community college. The inspectors in your area might teach some classes on nights or weekends, or may even know of contractors in your area that are looking for help. International Association of Electrical Inspectors Learn to do your own self study on the areas and things your working with and interested with as you go. Buy some used books on ebay instead of accumulating college debt that wont help you cut out the required field time. If you need further convincing about college classes, to help you cut corners, read up on these sorry diatribes for a fine example. Employer Wont Register me as a apprentice Unlicensed apprentices ontario canada Best of luck to you, keep your eyes on the prize, and your nose to the grindstone.


 very helpful and I believe you just completely talked me out of college. The only reason I was looking at college was because some programs you finish with a certificate for your classes and some offer classes at a college which you get to finish with an associates here and that sounded better to me was all. Guess it’s time to start finding doors to pound on. Appreciate the help again man wish me luck!


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Think of it as persistence and dedication, instead of luck. Read those links given at the bottom, a fine example of collage for this trade...


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Gavinw5 said:


> Guess it’s time to start finding doors to pound on. Appreciate the help again man wish me luck!


Stop by your IBEW local too. First and last place I inquired about apprenticeship. I didn't have any connections.


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## Gavinw5 (7 mo ago)

CMP said:


> Think of it as persistence and dedication, instead of luck. Read those links given at the bottom, a fine example of collage for this trade...


 That’s very true man and I read through the links I had my second guesses and I think you guys all proved the point and it didn’t work out so well for them. I’m willing to put the work in and more then willing to listen and learn. What you get out of it all depends on what you put into it right.


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## Gavinw5 (7 mo ago)

u2slow said:


> Stop by your IBEW local too. First and last place I inquired about apprenticeship. I didn't have any connections.


Okay I’ll make sure to check it out and see I’ve heard lots of good things about ibew. Hoping to get some experience in beforehand as a helper so I can kinda feel out the trade.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

This site is country wide and working in the electrical trade has many different policies from state to state. Then you have UNIONs and their regulations. Many areas do not require a union membership and some states only have a 15% to 20 % union participation rate. You can check the local IBEW hall and see what they say. You can also look up the local IAEI which is an association of mostly non union contractors and electrical inspectors. Also you might have an electrical contractors association that you can check out. See what they suggest in your area. Keep in mind that colleges are in the business to make money. A technology collage might be better than a community collage but things are always changing. Maybe go into the HVAC field, you will be more in demand with all the energy code changes. People want to be cool and warm and will pay for it. You need specialized tools which a homeowner can't buy. Some places you have more and more foreigners Polish, Spanish, Turkish, Asian, and several others along with handy men doing electrical work, cutting prices and butchering jobs. I have never seen any doing HVAC work.


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## Johbndeere (4 mo ago)

Gavinw5 said:


> Okay I’ll make sure to check it out and see I’ve heard lots of good things about ibew. Hoping to get some experience in beforehand as a helper so I can kinda feel out the trade.


This one you should definitely try. I loved it, I would place this one on the highlight!


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## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

Check out the union apprenticeships, especially IBEW. In my area there is the IBEW apprenticeship, where they find you a job if they accept you and a non union apprenticeship school where they give you a short list of employers hiring and they put you through school.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Gavinw5 said:


> I just graduated high school and decided I wanted to get into the trades and was hoping someone could answer a few questions for me. I have almost no prior experience or resume that would help me on the point system for an apprenticeship. There’s a community college course that called “electrician apprenticeship technology” and you graduate with an associates. Is that the same degree as electrical technology and would it be a bad idea to complete that before starting an apprenticeship? Could it make my apprenticeship shorter or allow me to skip classes involved in a joint apprenticeship? Thank you!


The EET degree at one time was a two year degree. Many colleges have offered an upgraded BSEET.

There are big differences. The associates version is very similar to most other trades degrees. There are debates about whether it is better to just go through an apprenticeship (learn entirely on the job) or going to school. To me the apprentices have a lot of basic skills but they struggle later on say figuring out what size cable to use and anything Code related is based on a bunch of tribal knowledge, not Code. The ones who go to school start out struggling to turn wrenches and other basic mechanical skills but once they pick it up then the book learning kicks in so that they can end up JWs about the same time but have stronger skills to pass the licensing exams. They get enough knowledge that they truly understand Eli the Iceman and things like that so it’s easier to grasp things. Tech degrees can also be technicians moving towards HVAC and testing and service contractors where the pay rates and skills are higher.

The BSEET is usually structured as a BSEE. The difference is whether or not you can pass calculus. The fact is that some people just can’t (or give up trying). So technically they are very similar and let’s face it most engineers never use calculus again once they leave college. The problem is that the degree ends in a “T”. Even though most colleges call it “Technology” every employer thinks it means “technician”. So there is always a sort of “glass ceiling” that the BSEETs do the work and the BSEEs get the credit. It’s not fair but it’s how the world works. So if you are going this route whether you go 2 or 4 years employers are going to treat it as the same thing.

So my opinion is that I don’t see much point with BSEET. If you are going 4 years anyways buck it up, suffer through calculus, and make the big bucks. It’s ridiculous but the local 4 year university charges $7k a year for tuition The community college is $5k. Granted that’s an extra $2,000 a year but it’s just not that much different cost wise. So either get the 2 year degree or go full engineering.

As far as apprentice vs school it’s really a matter of looking at the long term. Up to a certain point the longer you go to school the more money you make as long as you stick to things that are in demand. It might be hard to make a huge pay check with a PhD in fine art. But the longer you are in school, the longer you don’t make any money (or even pike on debt). So you make more ultimately as an EET, more as a BSEE, more as an MSEE (or even MBA), and still more with a PhD that is in demand…PhD and MS EE are fairly equivalent so the extra school doesn’t pay off.

I’d say though that the difference between 2 year EET and apprentice is a lot less than say 2 year EET vs BSEE vs MSEE/MBA.

Union apprenticeships are very local. They mean something only within a particular union. Outside of the union it’s just experience. Even between unions there is little or no reciprocity. Some are better than others which is why what you do in one local means very little in another.

Also when it comes to college degrees where you graduate from matters on your first job a little but not after that. When have you looked at the “I live me” wall of degrees at the doctors office and walked out because they got a degree from a certain school? Nobody cares.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paulengr said:


> ...There are debates about whether it is better to just go through an apprenticeship (learn entirely on the job) or going to school.


What's this "basic apprenticeship" you speak of? Never heard of it... If you mean hire on with a contractor as a green helper and maybe go to some night school on your own it you want... or not if you don't... that's not apprenticing. To describe EVERY legal proper apprentice and apprenticeship program the entire scheme must be accredited by a respected legitimate higher learning institution and accepted by the US department of Education. 

If you're learning entirely on the job that's not an apprenticeship at all its a helper, and many people never advance past that because most contractors who employ that method are the bottom feeders who want 50 "helpers" on each site to each Journeyman (Or "Mechanic working-foreman as they call themselves in the NY region.)
And it's always a chit show. An apprentice MUST attend regular school to get the theory otherwise turn into little more than installers who may know how to get stuff done, but never quite know why things are done the way they are of actually work, and usually can't troubleshoot or diagnose electrical issues with any degree of efficiency or speed, and become parts changers... 

That bottom heavy pyramid scheme means it's mathamatically impossible to have more than a few "helpers" ever advance to a higher paid position because because that;'s what these types of shops don't want.

Anything less that all those requirements is just blowing smoke and it's all over the map and disjointed and less than a 2nd rate situation... Like the for profit "skills training centers."



> To me the apprentices have a lot of basic skills but they struggle later on say figuring out what size cable to use and anything Code related is based on a bunch of tribal knowledge, not Code. So if you are going this route whether you go 2 or 4 years employers are going to treat it as the same thing.


Then you never knew any real apprentices I suspect of the ones you did didn't attend an actual proper accredited school with the intrinsic structure and a solid well rounded education program.., Or everyone you met that didn't curt the mustard was just lazy or uninspired or just not good workers for some other reason... like lousy wages or crummy shops filled with crappy sketchy cheap labor.



> So my opinion is that I don’t see much point with BSEET. If you are going 4 years anyways buck it up, suffer through calculus, and make the big bucks. It’s ridiculous but the local 4 year university charges $7k a year for tuition The community college is $5k. Granted that’s an extra $2,000 a year but it’s just not that much different cost wise. So either get the 2 year degree or go full engineering.


He can come to NY state and attend any SUNY tuitiomn free bur has to get a local room to rent on his dime and feed himself or pay to live in the dorms... if he agrees to remain employed in the state of NY for I think 5 ormaybe 7 years after graduation...

But l the kid did specifically state he wants to get into the trade and rarely have I mat an electrician worker in the trades aspire to be a white collar engineer, plus... the field is not as high paying as you might think, in NYC union shops that have an EE they pay them about 1/2 what a journeyman wiremen's rates is... unless the EE hangs out his own shingle and doesn't work as an employee... Although it has been known to happen from time to time because sometimes one of our apprentices finds they love the theory so much more than the hands on experience from the day work... and realize a change of the program can get them there. And if they journey out as well and get some good diverse OTJ blue collar experience that guy becomes THE BEST electrical contractors you could wish for for. Well educated perfect gentlemen, stand you guy type that doesn't have unrealistic expectations and already knows what it takes to "git 'er'dun."




As far as apprentice vs school it’s really a matter of looking at the long term. Up to a certain point the longer you go to school the more money you make as long as you stick to things that are in demand. It might be hard to make a huge pay check with a PhD in fine art. But the longer you are in school, the longer you don’t make any money (or even pike on debt). So you make more ultimately as an EET, more as a BSEE, more as an MSEE (or even MBA), and still more with a PhD that is in demand…PhD and MS EE are fairly equivalent so the extra school doesn’t pay off.




I’d say though that the difference between 2 year EET and apprentice is a lot less than say 2 year EET vs BSEE vs MSEE/MBA.




Union apprenticeships are very local. They mean something only within a particular union. Outside of the union it’s just experience. Even between unions there is little or no reciprocity. Some are better than others which is why what you do in one local means very little in another.





Also when it comes to college degrees where you graduate from matters on your first job a little but not after that. When have you looked at the “I live me” wall of degrees at the doctors office and walked out because they got a degree from a certain school? Nobody cares.
[/QUOTE]


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Gavinw5 said:


> I just graduated high school and decided I wanted to get into the trades and was hoping someone could answer a few questions for me. I have almost no prior experience or resume that would help me on the point system for an apprenticeship. There’s a community college course that called “electrician apprenticeship technology” and you graduate with an associates. Is that the same degree as electrical technology and would it be a bad idea to complete that before starting an apprenticeship? Could it make my apprenticeship shorter or allow me to skip classes involved in a joint apprenticeship? Thank you!


1- You're just beginning your life you're not supposed to have any prior experience or resume yet. Showing and proving you have had an interest in it since you got that first light Bright for Christmas does help though, or took something related to the trade in HS but not necessary.

2-If the point system for this apprenticeship is an IBEW one, then the sooner you do what you gotta to build them up to increase your chances or meet their minimum requirements then by all means start off with a plan to do that,, but apply now anyway now even if you're not accepted at lest you'll be familiar with how the process works.

Also any schooling you get before an IBEW apprenticeship is usually not accepted as starting you at a higher level, we like to train you up our way right from the bottom up... USUALLY. 

Now if your're not referring to an IBEW apprenticeship I can only guess but the advice given is still applicable... and know there are fake BS for profit and lousy fake apprentice schemes and scams all over the place... so get in writing exactly what you have to do and pay and what they are exactly going to provide you from tools and number of hours of class time with accredited and or licensed teachers and don't make any assumptions like that the claim of "94% of our graduates are employed within 2 months!" to actually mean they're going to find you the job or have an actual job placement program,,, this is the sales tactic to get you believing this place is impressive when what they'ere saying is whether or not their courses are helpful in getting you a job most students already always had a job because it is a part time school after all... 

Know that the most common 2 courses of becoming a tradesman are in the IBEW apprenticeship and then after 5 years becoming a top payid journeyman wireman or in a nonunion scheme becoming a helper and then working your way at whatever pace they let you or you can until they consider you "the real deal" and usually those who attend a college or technical center were steered that way but idiot HS guiance counselers because they always default to MORE SCHOOL IS BETTER and also want to support the education industrial complex cabal... or for-profit diploma mill which really get the future contractors who see your useless certificate laugh at and think of you as an idiot fool who dot duped but hire you anyway because you'll be easy to take advantage of, or laugh you out of the building and circular file your application, of just the opposite, take pity and are empathetic and hire you for altruistic reasons... 

So there's a lot to digest there... Good luck! And welcome to ET!!!
Oh and the fact that you think you can use non-participating college technology course to shorten your apprenticeship tells me 2 things, you've NOT even called and asked that from the only dependable place that has the correct intel for yyou so you're lazy or a dreamer of a pie in the sky unicorns and rainbows dreamer type... an idiot... or lazy that you havent alread even ppicked up a phomne and figured that one out for yourself and are going to need too much hand holding abd be a "needy, high maintenance type..."


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> This site is country wide and working in the electrical trade has many different policies from state to state. Then you have UNIONs and their regulations. Many areas do not require a union membership and some states only have a 15% to 20 % union participation rate. You can check the local IBEW hall and see what they say. You can also look up the local IAEI which is an association of mostly non union contractors and electrical inspectors. Also you might have an electrical contractors association that you can check out. See what they suggest in your area. Keep in mind that colleges are in the business to make money. A technology collage might be better than a community collage but things are always changing. Maybe go into the HVAC field, you will be more in demand with all the energy code changes. People want to be cool and warm and will pay for it. You need specialized tools which a homeowner can't buy. Some places you have more and more foreigners Polish, Spanish, Turkish, Asian, and several others along with handy men doing electrical work, cutting prices and butchering jobs. I have never seen any doing HVAC work.


It WAS the better choice I was about to do that Boces Course in HS instead of Construction Electricity as my SMART guidance counsoler thought It was a better fit for my complexities and grades than construction Electricity. Techs for Dix Hills HVAC make way more that mechanics and helpers working for nonunion contractors... but I will say I notice may of those guys doing it always seem to be mad or angry...


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