# Why join a Union?



## Okie123 (Jan 1, 2014)

So I just got my license. Only been in the trade for just over 4 years. Before that I was a Scout (19Delta) in the US Army. The shop I work at has about 60 employees. We are always busy and the pay is great. I don't know anything about Unions and was just wondering why some electricians join them. What's the attraction?


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Okie123 said:


> So I just got my license. Only been in the trade for just over 4 years. Before that I was a Scout (19Delta) in the US Army. The shop I work at has about 60 employees. We are always busy and the pay is great. I don't know anything about Unions and was just wondering why some electricians join them. What's the attraction?


some people like socialism


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Bigger areas ,unions

have more work,longer jobs

Defined wages and benefits.

More safety and training on the job.

Bigger tools are provided.

The feeling of a Brotherhood.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Generally but not always when compared to open shops.

Very good pay
Very good benefits
Retirement


and for me the biggest

Over the course of your career you will work from as few as one electrical and as many as who knows. With a union the pay and benefits travel with you no renegotiating at each job.

Now some places unions do not have full time work so you may work only part of the year up to 365 days a year. 

In my area union is pretty strong and has full employment.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> some people like socialism


I thought you were pro union???????????????


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Around here the unions have an agreement for a reduced wage on a plant shut down for maintenance. Guys need the work.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I will say that working union, especially on larger jobs, is very similar to the way our military is organized.
Sometimes it's warm body's needed but to make it into a supervision billet, you have to prove your proficiency.


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## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

Okie123 said:


> So I just got my license. Only been in the trade for just over 4 years. Before that I was a Scout (19Delta) in the US Army. The shop I work at has about 60 employees. We are always busy and the pay is great. I don't know anything about Unions and was just wondering why some electricians join them. What's the attraction?


It doesn't require thought or a soul. Just keep paying dues and all will be well. :whistling2:


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## Sparky305 (Feb 7, 2012)

Okie123 said:


> So I just got my license. Only been in the trade for just over 4 years. Before that I was a Scout (19Delta) in the US Army. The shop I work at has about 60 employees. We are always busy and the pay is great. I don't know anything about Unions and was just wondering why some electricians join them. What's the attraction?


The real question for me is . . what are the benefits of being a union contractor?

I been in the union most of my career as an apprentice, and the union has been great to me providing good wages, health insurance, and free education. But if I were to start out on my own and become a union contractor, how would I benefit from being a union shop? Keep in mind I'm in Florida and unions suck down here. Can anyone offer any enlightenment? It just doesn't add up for me.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

bobelectric said:


> Bigger areas ,unions
> 
> have more work,longer jobs
> 
> ...


Yeah! What he said.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

rewire said:


> some people like socialism


That's funny.us union guys can post rational and care free opinions in the non union threads but it doesn't seem to go both ways. But yet were still disliked. And who said or has proof that socialistic ideals are bad.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

bobelectric said:


> Bigger areas ,unions
> 
> have more work


not true unions only have about 7% of the market


> Defined wages and benefits.


 the slowest guy makes the same as the fastest guy


> The feeling of a Brotherhood.


stabbing each other in the back so you are not first on the layoff list so you wont be sitting on the bench behind 100 other guys.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

rewire said:


> not true unions only have about 7% of the market the slowest guy makes the same as the fastest guy
> stabbing each other in the back so you are not first on the layoff list so you wont be sitting on the bench behind 100 other guys.


getting paid more and company provided power tools


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

chadw said:


> getting paid more and company provided power tools


being laid off and having to wait six months for the book to get to you. 
Then paying to work.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

If your in a good union it can be the best thing..


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The training opportunities you will get in the union are often far-and-away better than anything provided by merit shops. If you're looking to advance your career quickly, the more of that you have under your belt, the better off you'll be.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

You would get better answers by asking a union member in your area. A good number of guys on here with issues against the union, have no first hand knowledge of the pros and cons of union employment. My father was union because that was the path that worked out best for him, I'm not because I had better non union opportunities available when I was entering the job market.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

rewire said:


> being laid off and having to wait six months for the book to get to you.
> Then paying to work.


you really think the good ones get laid off and are on the books forever? just like the non-union side contactors, they keep the most valuable employees busy.

my $18.20 hr. as a 3rd year apprentice is about as much as non-union jw's get in my area. and the dues I pay are not much at all. The benefits, pension, and insurance are worth it. Not to mention the training is really good.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> I thought you were pro union???????????????


depends which way the wind is blowing


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

chadw said:


> you really think the good ones get laid off and are on the books forever? just like the non-union side contactors, they keep the most valuable employees busy.
> 
> my $18.20 hr. as a 3rd year apprentice is about as much as non-union jw's get in my area. and the dues I pay are not much at all. The benefits, pension, and insurance are worth it. Not to mention the training is really good.


From my experience in the union the foreman with a van will sit home for a month and draw unemployment with his company van in the drive and not sign the book. If the hall finds out and makes the guy sign the book the employer just calls him out and he jumps past all his "brothers". 

the pay was a few dollars more and I did not want or need the insurance but had to pay for it anyway. I am vested in the NEBF but it may go broke before I retire. That was the reason for the CE/CW program it is geared to get more paying into the system. The retirement was about 4 to 1 now it is 1 to 1 as far as paying in and those retired.

For a small contractor their is no benefit and for a residential contractor it is hard to even get workers. Our union residential scale was 11.00/hr .


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

brian john said:


> I thought you were pro union???????????????


I have never been pro union even when I was in the union. I am not rabid anti union either. From a worker view point union was more money so it was a benefit from an employer view point I see no benefit.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

I made more working Commission than I did in the Union


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

rewire said:


> I have never been pro union even when I was in the union. I am not rabid anti union either. From a worker view point union was more money so it was a benefit from an employer view point I see no benefit.


residential I can see that. comercially and beyond I would have to say ibew has far more benefits for contractors. if u are winning a alot of work, and your guys are all busy. you can fairly easily add more and get some quality workers. not saying everyone coming off the books will be great. there is a lot of bums out there. but your chances are much better than trying to place ads and hiring off the street.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> For a small contractor their is no benefit and for a residential contractor it is hard to even get workers. Our union residential scale was 11.00/hr .


In this area there use to be an edge for small contractors (when the union finally allowed small contractors to survivor) and that was SOME companies required us to be union, now no one cares.

For a small shop starting out I see little advantage to being union.

For a man starting out or working electrician wanting generally better pay and bennies IN MY AREA union is the way. We generally have work 12 months a year.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chadw said:


> residential I can see that. comercially and beyond I would have to say ibew has far more benefits for contractors. if u are winning a alot of work, and your guys are all busy. you can fairly easily add more and get some quality workers. not saying everyone coming off the books will be great. there is a lot of bums out there. but your chances are much better than trying to place ads and hiring off the street.


But for small contactors that are going to stay small I see little benefit.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

brian john said:


> But for small contactors that are going to stay small I see little benefit.


idk our shop has 16 guys and does well. being union and small I think our advantage is with that flexibility. we get deadlines moved up on us and everybody is busy. within a few days we have reinforcements arrive and they usually come through for us. if we were non-union, findind a few decent guys that quick would not be so easy I imagine.


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## Big CHris (Apr 18, 2012)

chadw said:


> idk our shop has 16 guys and does well. being union and small I think our advantage is with that flexibility. we get deadlines moved up on us and everybody is busy. within a few days we have reinforcements arrive and they usually come through for us. if we were non-union, findind a few decent guys that quick would not be so easy I imagine.


Some non union companies use temp agencies to man their jobs. They can get men as fast as we can calling the hall for more help. Some of the temps are good and some aren't. Some guys coming out on a call are great and others are just warm bodies.


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## chadw (Jan 10, 2012)

Big CHris said:


> Some non union companies use temp agencies to man their jobs. They can get men as fast as we can calling the hall for more help. Some of the temps are good and some aren't. Some guys coming out on a call are great and others are just warm bodies.


sounds iffy idk. is there really that many qualified jw's taking temp jobs? I just would guess If u needed 4 guys in a pinch, how many of the 4 could you layout and not have to babysit all day?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

chadw said:


> sounds iffy idk. is there really that many qualified jw's taking temp jobs? I just would guess If u needed 4 guys in a pinch, how many of the 4 could you layout and not have to babysit all day?


In todays market you might have better draw of men that in good times.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

chadw said:


> idk our shop has 16 guys and does well. being union and small I think our advantage is with that flexibility. we get deadlines moved up on us and everybody is busy. within a few days we have reinforcements arrive and they usually come through for us. if we were non-union, findind a few decent guys that quick would not be so easy I imagine.


That's exactly right. That's the benefit of being a union contractor, the ability to flex your manpower and know that you are going to get skilled labor. You can keep your regulars working, yet still have the ability to bid on more work.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> In todays market you might have better draw of men that in good times.


:laughing: Your local must love you. You speak very highly of them.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Big CHris said:


> Some non union companies use temp agencies to man their jobs. They can get men as fast as we can calling the hall for more help. Some of the temps are good and some aren't. Some guys coming out on a call are great and others are just warm bodies.


I can't imagine manning a job with temp agency workers.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

rewire said:


> being laid off and having to wait six months for the book to get to you.
> Then paying to work.





chadw said:


> you really think the good ones get laid off and are on the books forever? just like the non-union side contactors, they keep the most valuable employees busy.





Loose Neutral said:


> That's exactly right. That's the benefit of being a union contractor, the ability to flex your manpower and know that you are going to get skilled labor. You can keep your regulars working, yet still have the ability to bid on more work.


So, one union guy says that the good workers don't get laid off, then the another union guy says that you can call the hall and *know* that you will get skilled labor. 

Which is it? If the good guys don't get laid off where is the hall getting this "skilled" labor? The guys you get from the hall are no different than the guys we get from the temp labor company. Some good, some bad, it's a gamble.


Loose Neutral said:


> I can't imagine manning a job with temp agency workers.


A union contractor calls the hall and *hopes* that he will be sent some skilled labor, same as a non-union contractor hiring through a temp service. Some times it works out, sometimes you get a useless slug.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> So, one union guy says that the good workers don't get laid off, then the another union guy says that you can call the hall and *know* that you will get skilled labor.
> 
> Which is it? If the good guys don't get laid off where is the hall getting this "skilled" labor? The guys you get from the hall are no different than the guys we get from the temp labor company. Some good, some bad, it's a gamble.
> 
> A union contractor calls the hall and *hopes* that he will be sent some skilled labor, same as a non-union contractor hiring through a temp service. Some times it works out, sometimes you get a useless slug.


You almost grasped the idea. The hall is a skilled labor temp agency staffed by skilled labor. When you put in a call for manpower you know you will be getting a 10,000 hour trained JW. Outside temp agency, you don't know what your getting. As for the slug theory that will fall into the 100 man count. 20 over achievers, 60 average workers, 20 under achievers. It's a human nature thing.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> So, one union guy says that the good workers don't get laid off, then the another union guy says that you can call the hall and *know* that you will get skilled labor.
> 
> Which is it? If the good guys don't get laid off where is the hall getting this "skilled" labor? The guys you get from the hall are no different than the guys we get from the temp labor company. Some good, some bad, it's a gamble.
> 
> A union contractor calls the hall and *hopes* that he will be sent some skilled labor, same as a non-union contractor hiring through a temp service. Some times it works out, sometimes you get a useless slug.


Getting laid off has nothing to do with being a good electrician. Some guys want to work steady for 1 contractor, some don't. Some prefer to work the list, some are scared to death to sign it. Refer back to the 100 man count for whos sitting on the bench.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

If I was an employee all over again, and had the choice with Unions or a Merit contractor doing Prevailing wage work, I'd go merit in a heartbeat.....

Unions seem to get work, and then get laid off for 6 months or longer when the big project is over..


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> If I was an employee all over again, and had the choice with Unions or a Merit contractor doing Prevailing wage work, I'd go merit in a heartbeat.....
> 
> Unions seem to get work, and then get laid off for 6 months or longer when the big project is over..


Unions do work in size from lightning bugs to lightning bolts. Not all jobs are huge in nature.


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## Skblay (May 15, 2013)

rewire said:


> not true unions only have about 7% of the market the slowest guy makes the same as the fastest guy stabbing each other in the back so you are not first on the layoff list so you wont be sitting on the bench behind 100 other guys.


Actually you have no idea what you are talking about. We are a brotherhood, we are the ones that do not stab each other in the backs and help each other out. When we have someone that is out of work due to operation or illness we even go as far to all throw some money in a card help them out. The only thing that makes the call on who gets laid of is knowledge and skill. So this is where the "slowest and fastest guy" make there difference in pay by working more hours. And last but not least if you want to work as an industrial electrician (IMO why work anything else) we have 80-100% market share, 94% in NE. So why don't we save the bs and help somebody make some unbiased decisions it seems the non-union guys are the only ones slamming and we get the bad name. Ironic.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> I can't imagine manning a job with temp agency workers.


I could not imagine manning a job with guys rejected by all the other contractors.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Unions do work in size from lightning bugs to lightning bolts. Not all jobs are huge in nature.


not really true as the majority of work is going non union. If Davis Beacon were repealed the unions would collapse.


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

OMG grow the [email protected]#k up people. Who cares what you make. Who cares what your definition is of a slug.

Is it enough?

Are you provided with health insurance? Do you have a pension at the end of your career? Are you going to have a huge 1/4 million dollar to million dollar annuity when it is all over? 

Or are you working for straight time cash on the weekends? Making under 50K a year working 12 months with over 10-20 years in this business? Paying out of your pocket for health insurance? Have no pension? Have no annuity?

There are no guarantees in life whether your union or non union. You can be laid off all the same at any time. As a business owner I know who I would go with and as an employee I know who I would go with.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

rewire said:


> I could not imagine manning a job with guys rejected by all the other contractors.


.Uh false.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

rewire said:


> not really true as the majority of work is going non union. If Davis Beacon were repealed the unions would collapse.


Again False. Maybe your area, but not mine.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> :laughing: Your local must love you. You speak very highly of them.


Why because I am not naive and recognize that union does not have a lock on quality?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> If I was an employee all over again, and had the choice with Unions or a Merit contractor doing Prevailing wage work, I'd go merit in a heartbeat.....
> 
> Unions seem to get work, and then get laid off for 6 months or longer when the big project is over..


In our area that is not the norm, most men work year around except during tough times then everyone suffers union and open shop.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> You almost grasped the idea. The hall is a skilled labor temp agency staffed by skilled labor. When you put in a call for manpower you know you will be getting a 10,000 hour trained JW. Outside temp agency, you don't know what your getting. As for the slug theory that will fall into the 100 man count. 20 over achievers, 60 average workers, 20 under achievers. It's a human nature thing.


When I have drawn from the hall and that is seldom I always seem to get the upper 10% or average never had slugs though it was always a concern. The biggest issue I have had is their appearance hard core construction tattoo sleeves, funky dress but good workers.


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## Nicasta (Jun 26, 2013)

Good unions (read: well-represented, accountable) are good for all workers everywhere. Even if one chooses not to join a union, he will still benefit from the standards fought/paid for through collective bargaining. Unions provide the possibility of push back against capitalism, without them it is a race to the bottom - whoever works for less gets the work. Unions argue that laborers are worth more, rather than less. There are plenty of electricians who are compensated well and taken care of by their open-shop contractors; however, with unions taken out of the picture some (likely few to none) may still continue to do that - the nature of capitalism is greed. Without an element of socialism (unions), capitalism does not work for the people. That is not to say that unions should always get what they want, but simply that there is a conversation happening between capital and labor. Here in Texas we are a "right to work" state, but what that really means is that we have the right to work for less money. 

As for the IBEW, as others have stated before, they provide great standardized education which is paid for through union dues- both NECA and IBEW (socialized education! the horror!), a practically limitless qualified labor pool for contractors, great pension and healthcare benefits.


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## rewire (Jul 2, 2013)

Nicasta said:


> Good unions (read: well-represented, accountable) are good for all workers everywhere. Even if one chooses not to join a union, he will still benefit from the standards fought/paid for through collective bargaining. Unions provide the possibility of push back against capitalism, without them it is a race to the bottom - whoever works for less gets the work. Unions argue that laborers are worth more, rather than less. There are plenty of electricians who are compensated well and taken care of by their open-shop contractors; however, with unions taken out of the picture some (likely few to none) may still continue to do that - the nature of capitalism is greed. Without an element of socialism (unions), capitalism does not work for the people. That is not to say that unions should always get what they want, but simply that there is a conversation happening between capital and labor. Here in Texas we are a "right to work" state, but what that really means is that we have the right to work for less money.
> 
> As for the IBEW, as others have stated before, they provide great standardized education which is paid for through union dues- both NECA and IBEW (socialized education! the horror!), a practically limitless qualified labor pool for contractors, great pension and healthcare benefits.


The pension is in trouble that is why CE/CW was created


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## Nicasta (Jun 26, 2013)

Completely take away the pension, I would still be in the union. The bigger fight we have is against anti-union legislation pitting labor against labor. Unions will struggle in the south as long as the "right to work" law is there. The reality remains that only ones who suffer in the end are us - both open shop and union alike.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

I've been in the union about 9 months and it has been damn good to me. Better pay than all the shops around and the benefits kick ass.


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## doublejelectric (Jan 23, 2013)

chadw said:


> sounds iffy idk. is there really that many qualified jw's taking temp jobs? I just would guess If u needed 4 guys in a pinch, how many of the 4 could you layout and not have to babysit all day?


This is no different in the union, you have turds in the union and turds in the non union. It's just harder to fire turds in the union. I love the principals of the union, but the realism of the union sucks. I've butted heads with local 6 and local 46 over letting guys go that weren't up to my standards. I didn't say they were bad electricians, just not good enough electricians to work for me. At least in the non union, I let a guy go, he is generally accepting, in the union it's always, ahh man, what about joe, he did this or that, or worse, they sabotage something on their way out, not always, just on occasion.


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