# Who runs a 20 to the dining room?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dining rooms _require_ a 20a. 

*210.11(C) Dwelling Units.*
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

*210.52(B) Small Appliances.
*(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, _dining room_, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), ........


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## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

Just run it off the Kitchen counter top circuit.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I run a 20 amp to the dinning room, the livving room, the kitcchen, the beddrooms, and the launddry room. 12-2 to most recepts. That's the way I roll.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

wendon said:


> I run a 20 amp to the dinning room, the livving room, the kitcchen, the beddrooms, and the launddry room. 12-2 to most recepts. That's the way I roll.


Do you offer that as an upgrade or do you put it in your proposal and sell against the people running 14-2 where they can (and you are running 12-2)?

BTW, I think what you are doing is a good idea, I hope you get paid extra for doing it.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Dining rooms _require_ a 20a.
> 
> *210.11(C) Dwelling Units.*
> (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
> ...


 
I know, that but I see some guys pull a 20 amp to the dining in addition to the 2 SABC in the kitchen. Im thinking why not just extend the SABC or tap into the lighting circuit?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Do you offer that as an upgrade or do you put it in your proposal and sell against the people running 14-2 where they can (and you are running 12-2)?
> 
> BTW, I think what you are doing is a good idea, I hope you get paid extra for doing it.


It's probably the area I'm in but most of my proposals have the feet of each type of wire. I decide which panel to put in (Usually QO) and what size of service. I almost never bid against anyone, just give them the price for the job. Years ago, I didn't even give them a proposal. They just told me to wire their house. I see too many crazy things like electric heaters plugged in to run #14 on recept circuits. It doesn't add that much to the price of a home to add a little 12-2. The stupid arc faults are the same price.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

meadow said:


> I know, that but I see some guys pull a 20 amp to the dining in addition to the 2 SABC in the kitchen. Im thinking why not just extend the SABC or tap into the lighting circuit?


If you read the code posted, I don't believe it allows for "tapping into the lighting circuit".


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Dining rooms require a 20a. 210.11(C) Dwelling Units. (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B). 210.52(B) Small Appliances. (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), ........


The dining room outlets do not necessarily have to be on a 20 amp circuit, unless you are considering them in your 2 required small appliance branch circuits. If you already have (2) 20 amp SM APP circuits, they can be on a 15 amp circuit if you like.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If you read the code posted, I don't believe it allows for "tapping into the lighting circuit".


Ill re-read it again. My mind is still seeing the dining room as separate from the countertops.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

T&K said:


> The dining room outlets do not necessarily have to be on a 20 amp circuit, unless you are considering them in your 2 required small appliance branch circuits. If you already have (2) 20 amp SM APP circuits, they can be on a 15 amp circuit if you like.


Read post #2 and you will see that the dining room outlets must be on a 20-amp circuit.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> Ill re-read it again. My mind is still seeing the dining room as separate from the countertops.


it is if you want it to be. I always separate it from the countertop, but it's just habit. But then again, I also consider a dining room circuit the least used circuit in the home, and I will almost always put the receptacles on with whatever room happens to be close, usually the living room, or a nearby bed room.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

You guys would love it here. SABC for countertops is maxed out at 4 and can't feed anything else, dining is limited to six and all recepts everywhere have to be 12.

Do you have a local ammend, meadow?


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Read post #2 and you will see that the dining room outlets must be on a 20-amp circuit.


only if you are considering the outlets to be a part of your 2 required small appliance circuits.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

meadow said:


> I know, that but I see some guys pull a 20 amp to the dining in addition to the 2 SABC in the kitchen. Im thinking why not just extend the SABC or tap into the lighting circuit?


Depending on the size of the kitchen, I normally run 3-4 circuits to the countertop.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> it is if you want it to be. I always separate it from the countertop, but it's just habit. But then again, I also consider a dining room circuit the least used circuit in the home, and I will almost always put the receptacles on with whatever room happens to be close, usually the living room, or a nearby bed room.


That's my thinking as well. Saves wire with no complaints yet.






3xdad said:


> You guys would love it here. SABC for countertops is maxed out at 4 and can't feed anything else, dining is limited to six and all recepts everywhere have to be 12.
> 
> Do you have a local ammend, meadow?



No local that I know of. Older homes would just tie the dinning on to the SABC or which ever circuit was close by but Im seeing every other new home with a dedicated 20amp just for the dinning room alone, nothing else on it.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

T&K said:


> The dining room outlets do not necessarily have to be on a 20 amp circuit, unless you are considering them in your 2 required small appliance branch circuits. If you already have (2) 20 amp SM APP circuits, they can be on a 15 amp circuit if you like.


I don't have my code book handy, but I'm pretty sure the only exception for a 15 amp circuit is for the refrigerator


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> I know, that but I see some guys pull a 20 amp to the dining in addition to the 2 SABC in the kitchen. Im thinking why not just extend the SABC or tap into the lighting circuit?


You can't have lighting on a SABC, even if it's the third one.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

T&K said:


> The dining room outlets do not necessarily have to be on a 20 amp circuit, unless you are considering them in your 2 required small appliance branch circuits. If you already have (2) 20 amp SM APP circuits, they can be on a 15 amp circuit if you like.


Code reference, please.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You can't have lighting on a SABC, even if it's the third one.



But my understanding is the dinning room doesn't have to be part of the SABC?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

meadow said:


> But my understanding is the dinning room doesn't have to be part of the SABC?



It does.

*210.11 (C) Dwelling Units.*
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

*210.52 (B) Small Appliances.*
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


Whether you use just two SABCs and pull one from the c'top to serve the DR, or install 3, 4, 5, 6 or even more, they all must be 20a as they are all required to be SABCs. 210.11(C) requires the 20a circuits, 210.52(B) requires them to be in the DR feeding the receps there.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

So my take is that the dinning room must be considered as part of the SABC?


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

bkmichael65 said:


> I don't have my code book handy, but I'm pretty sure the only exception for a 15 amp circuit is for the refrigerator


somewhat correct. There is an exception that allows a 15 amp dedicated circuit to supply a fridge, but that exception is there because 252 (B)1. ends with the refrigeration equipment in the kitchen must be on a 20 amp small appliance branch circuit. As long as you have your 2 required, you can run a 15 amp circuit for other items in the kitchen such as if you want to put a range hood and/or gas range on a 15 amp circuit, it is permitted.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> So my take is that the dinning room must be considered as part of the SABC?


nope


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

T&K said:


> nope


 shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> nope


But it must be a 20amp in the very least?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I say the code is murky on the issue. 210.52 (B) (2) says the two required SABC circuits shall have no other outlets. What's that supposed to mean? They both are suppose to only feed one receptacle?? 

Then 210.52 (B) (3) says both of them shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52 (B) (1) Which says kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit. 
Give me a plausible explanation.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

wendon said:


> I say the code is murky on the issue. 210.52 (B) (2) says the two required SABC circuits shall have no other outlets. What's that supposed to mean? They both are suppose to only feed one receptacle??
> 
> Then 210.52 (B) (3) says both of them shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52 (B) (1) Which says kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit.
> Give me a plausible explanation.


That part also makes me wonder. But code is always based on theory, and, what is the theory behind having a 20amp circuit in a dinning room? Other than a vacuum (12 amps tops) I can't picture someone plugging in kitchen equipment.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Code reference, please.


there is nothing that says you can, because we are talking about minimum standards. If you only use the minimum of 2 circuits for the small appliance countertop circuits and include the pantry, dining, etc, they shall all be on a 20. You aren't going to find a reference of being able to go above the code minimum of 2 required. With this thinking, you would be saying that it would be against code to have a 15 amp dedicated circuit in a dining room to supply a warming drawer that has an amp rating of 5 amps.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Once again. Read JUST the red words.

*210.11 (C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits.* In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, *two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).*

*210.52 (B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served*. *In the *kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, *dining room*, or similar area of a dwelling unit,* the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets* covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


Whether you use just two SABCs and pull one from the c'top to serve the DR, or install 3, 4, 5, 6 or even more, they all must be 20a as they are all required to be SABCs. 210.11(C) requires the 20a circuits, 210.52(B) requires them to be in the DR feeding the receps there.


Now... as for why as in the OP: Some people will put buffets in their DRs. Buffets where roasters, crock pots, coffee makers, etc. will be plugging in.

Many older folks put the coffee pot and toaster right on the table and leave them there.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

meadow said:


> That part also makes me wonder. But code is always based on theory, and, what is the theory behind having a 20amp circuit in a dinning room? Other than a vacuum (12 amps tops) I can't picture someone plugging in kitchen equipment.


I see it all the time. Thanksgiving dinner, croc pots and chaffing dishes plugged in on a dinning room sideboard.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

Minimum standards, and interpretation of the code.


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## Stickshaker (Jun 29, 2012)

T&K said:


> Minimum standards, and interpretation of the code.


No interpretation necessary, it's written quite plainly.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

T&K said:


> there is nothing that says you can, because we are talking about minimum standards. If you only use the minimum of 2 circuits for the small appliance countertop circuits and include the pantry, dining, etc, they shall all be on a 20. You aren't going to find a reference of being able to go above the code minimum of 2 required. With this thinking, you would be saying that it would be against code to have a 15 amp dedicated circuit in a dining room to supply a warming drawer that has an amp rating of 5 amps.


The 'warming drawer' receptacle isn't going to be a receptacle that's required by 210.52(B). It's going to be in the cabinet that holds the drawer.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Ok, so I guess the dinning room is indeed nothing more than a continuation of the counter top. Learn something new everyday :thumbup:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

backstay said:


> I see it all the time. Thanksgiving dinner, croc pots and chaffing dishes plugged in on a dinning room sideboard.


only happens once a year, but yo mama be PO'd if all the warming trays start tripping breakers (or worse -fuses). been there.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

Someone said it already, but the dining room is a gray area when it comes to the code book. for example, 2008 code is when the arc faults were added to so many areas of the home, but not the kitchen, lights or receptacles. however, the dining room was specifically listed in areas that must be arc fault protected. If the dining room is essentially the same area as the kitchen, why was the dining room specifically mentioned? It is my interpretation, along with evidently everyone else in this area, including an inspector that can wear you out with code references off the top of his head, that it does not have to be on a 20 amp circuit if you already have your two required circuits.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> Someone said it already, but the dining room is a gray area when it comes to the code book. for example, 2008 code is when the arc faults were added to so many areas of the home, but not the kitchen, lights or receptacles. however, the dining room was specifically listed in areas that must be arc fault protected. If the dining room is essentially the same area as the kitchen, why was the dining room specifically mentioned? It is my interpretation, along with evidently everyone else in this area, including an inspector that can wear you out with code references off the top of his head, that it does not have to be on a 20 amp circuit if you already have your two required circuits.


You have a point. But the way the NEC reads dinning and countertop are in the same list.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

T&K said:


> ..... for example, 2008 ...


2014 baby, unless otherwise noted

Ok, I'm gonna post this again, even though 48 has done it a couple times:


> 210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
> (1) Small-Appliance Branc.h Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch cir* cuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
> 210.52(B).
> 
> ...


Now, I have never, ever, bought the handbook (maybe I should), but this is what the above (collectively) means to me. And I don't think it is anything but clear:

*Dining rooms, pantries, kitchens have to be on an SABC (ie. 20 amp ckt), and they cannot be connected to rooms other than dining rooms, pantries, kitchens.*

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that sums it up.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Dining rooms _require_ a 20a.
> 
> *210.11(C) Dwelling Units.*
> (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
> ...


It's nice to have on fondue night.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

wildleg said:


> 2014 baby, unless otherwise noted Ok, I'm gonna post this again, even though 48 has done it a couple times: Now, I have never, ever, bought the handbook (maybe I should), but this is what the above (collectively) means to me. And I don't think it is anything but clear: Dining rooms, pantries, kitchens have to be on an SABC (ie. 20 amp ckt), and they cannot be connected to rooms other than dining rooms, pantries, kitchens. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that sums it up.


I have the handbook and it is clear in graphic detail. The dinning room receptacles must be on a 20. The OP is wrong. End of story.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

T&K said:


> .. that it does not have to be on a 20 amp circuit if you already have your two required circuits.


So by this logic, once you have a 20 amp bath circuit feeding 1 bathroom, you can feed the other bathrooms with 15 amp circuits.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

480sparky said:


> So by this logic, once you have a 20 amp bath circuit feeding 1 bathroom, you can feed the other bathrooms with 15 amp circuits.


code reference on where it states you must have 2 bathroom circuits. Thanks


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

T&K said:


> code reference on where it states you must have 2 bathroom circuits. Thanks


What he's saying is the code requires the bathroom circuit to be 20 amp. You can feed multiple bathrooms with one 20 amp circuit or you can choose to feed each bathroom with individual circuits, but they still must all be 20 amp circuits. You can't just feed one bathroom with the "code mandated" 1-20 amp bathroom circuit and then choose to feed the rest with 15 amp circuits. 

The same applies to the dining room receptacles. The code requires a minimum of 2-20amp sabc. It also requires the receptacles in the dining room to be fed from a sabc. This doesn't mean you can only have 2 sabc, nor does it mean if you already have 2 sabc you can feed the dining room receptacles with a 15 amp general use circuit. You can have 10 sabc if that's what it takes to get job done.

The code is very clear on this subject. The dining room receptacles will be on a 20 sabc. Your interpretation of the nec on this is incorrect.


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## Swordsman (Jun 14, 2014)

Gee guys. Come to New Mexico where every receptacle is required to be on 12-2. Sure it's overkill but it solves all of those hair splitting decisions.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> What he's saying is the code requires the bathroom circuit to be 20 amp. You can feed multiple bathrooms with one 20 amp circuit or you can choose to feed each bathroom with individual circuits, but they still must all be 20 amp circuits. You can't just feed one bathroom with the "code mandated" 1-20 amp bathroom circuit and then choose to feed the rest with 15 amp circuits. The same applies to the dining room receptacles. The code requires a minimum of 2-20amp sabc. It also requires the receptacles in the dining room to be fed from a sabc. This doesn't mean you can only have 2 sabc, nor does it mean if you already have 2 sabc you can feed the dining room receptacles with a 15 amp general use circuit. You can have 10 sabc if that's what it takes to get job done. The code is very clear on this subject. The dining room receptacles will be on a 20 sabc. Your interpretation of the nec on this is incorrect.


thanks for your input, but it's all in how the code is interpreted.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

T&K said:


> thanks for your input, but it's all in how the code is interpreted.


Umm, not its not.You just don't want to face the truth. I used to feed my outside recepts of the dining circuit but figured out that was wrong also.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

T&K said:


> thanks for your input, but it's all in how the code is interpreted.


This section of code is not open to interpretation. It is very clear, black and white, no grey area. The dining room receptacles are required to be fed from a 20 amp sabc. There are no exceptions. No interpretation necessary.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

T&K said:


> code reference on where it states you must have 2 bathroom circuits. Thanks



It doesn't. Nor did I ever say it does.

But you CANNOT feed the other bathrooms from a 15a circuit 'just because you already have a 20a bath circuit feeding one of them.'

The same principle applies to the DR. It must be on a 20a circuit. Period. You cannot put a 15a circuit feeding the DR receps 'just because you already have two 20a circuits feeding the c'top.'

20a SABCs are NOT.... repeat *NOT*.... _solely _for the c'top.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

Why does Exhibit 210.28 show a dining room receptacle fed from a 15A general purpose branch circuit then? It appears that there's an exception allowing it to be 15A as long as it's switched. No?


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

Pharon said:


> Why does Exhibit 210.28 show a dining room receptacle fed from a 15A general purpose branch circuit then? It appears that there's an exception allowing it to be 15A as long as it's switched. No?


 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. 
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C). 
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3). 
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom. 
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets. 
Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Pharon said:


> Why does Exhibit 210.28 show a dining room receptacle fed from a 15A general purpose branch circuit then? It appears that there's an exception allowing it to be 15A as long as it's switched. No?


A switched outlet does not count as the required receptacle per 210.52, it counts as the lighting outlet for that room. That's why switched recepts are generally split with half being switched and half constant hot. Otherwise you would need 2 receptacles in the same area. 1 to satisfy the lighting outlet requirement and 1 to satisfy the 210.52 receptacle requirement. I believe if you have a switched receptacle in the dining room as your "lighting outlet" it could be fed from a 15 amp general purpose circuit, but you would also need a second receptacle in that same area to satisfy the receptacle requirement. That second receptacle would need to be fed from the sabc.

Also, when you mention "exhibit 210.28" I assume you are talking about the NEC handbook. Keep in mind that the handbook is for reference only and is not enforceable as code. Illustrations have been known to show incorrect information and code violations in the past.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

Pharon said:


> Why does Exhibit 210.28 show a dining room receptacle fed from a 15A general purpose branch circuit then? It appears that there's an exception allowing it to be 15A as long as it's switched. No?


The dining room is required to have a lighting outlet, whether it be a ceiling mounted fixture or a switched receptacle. The lighting outlet is allowed to be a 15 amp circuit. Notice that in that drawing it does NOT show a ceiling fixture. This is why it shows a 15 amp switched receptacle. The lighting outlet however does not relieve a person of the 20 amp dining room receptacle requirements.

Their is nothing open to interpretation in this section. You either do it right or you are doing it wrong. The code very clearly spells it out that dining receptacles are to be 20 amp.

We also pull a separate 20 amp circuit to the dining room everytime. I'd be pissed if I went to plug a nesco roaster in to my dining room for a family get together and I tripped the living room. Can't imagine that earns anyone a positive review. 

Jeff


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> Also, when you mention "exhibit 210.28" I assume you are talking about the NEC handbook. Keep in mind that the handbook is for reference only and is not enforceable as code. Illustrations have been known to show incorrect information and code violations in the past.


Agreed. I only pointed it out because it's what led me to see the language of 210.52(B)(1) Exception No. 1, which does seem to allow a 15A receptacle in a dining room under certain conditions. That's all.

And I get that if you do put one in for such a purpose, it does not qualify as a small appliance receptacle. It would just be allowed in addition to the others.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Swordsman said:


> Gee guys. Come to New Mexico where every receptacle is required to be on 12-2. Sure it's overkill but it solves all of those hair splitting decisions.




Twice been in New Mexico . So they require 12/2 on all recepts. 

That works good in my book and would like to see it everywhere .

I find that most apartments in cities end up split between several renters
so I have always run a 20A circuit in each bedroom when it is my call .
They always use hair dryers and heaters along with all else in there rooms .
No on uses the hair dryer in the bath , too many people in line .


Pete


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

Inspector called....check
Question asked...check
Told that he personally lets it go if you have more than 2 small appliance branch circuits....check
Also told that it was technically a code violation, but he sees it as if you are running more than the required number that it seems more common sense, and better....check
Admitting the fact that I was wrong...check
Learning new stuff daily...check
Tucking tail and waiting for more bashing..,check
Probably done this in a dozen houses in the last two years (catching the dining on with living room, and possibly a couple super cheap spec houses with a 15amp receptacle or 2...)

HA!!! It ain't the first time and won't be the last!!!


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## silver50032000 (Jan 21, 2014)

wendon said:


> I run a 20 amp to the dinning room, the livving room, the kitcchen, the beddrooms, and the launddry room. 12-2 to most recepts. That's the way I roll.


What about the bathhhhhhhhhhroom? Lol


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

On new construction and rewiring I run a 20 amp afci for the dining room , but I tag all the living room and dinette area outlets from the same ckt.

Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

silver50032000 said:


> What about the bathhhhhhhhhhroom? Lol


absoluttely! Also the garaage!:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

T&K said:


> Inspector called....check
> Question asked...check
> Told that he personally lets it go if you have more than 2 small appliance branch circuits....check
> Also told that it was technically a code violation, but he sees it as if you are running more than the required number that it seems more common sense, and better....check
> ...


That simply means there's _two_ people who are wrong.




Shockdoc said:


> On new construction and rewiring I run a 20 amp afci for the dining room , but I tag all the living room and dinette area outlets from the same ckt......


Yet another violation.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> Inspector called....check
> Question asked...check
> Told that he personally lets it go if you have more than 2 small appliance branch circuits....check
> Also told that it was technically a code violation, but he sees it as if you are running more than the required number that it seems more common sense, and better....check
> ...


 
I learned to things so far: The dining room always has to be #12, and, you are allowed 1 15 amp circuit be it counted as a lighting receptacle. :thumbup: I guess the inspectors are just now cracking down on it.


IMO, I think your inspector is correct. Having more circuits even if the dinning room is a 15 amp is common sense, since it will always be more VA no matter what. 

Out of curiosity, how do Canadians wire kitchens? I hear its every 2 outlets get a new circuit or something?


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

480sparky said:


> That simply means there's two people who are wrong.


Somehow I knew this would be your response...


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

meadow said:


> I learned to things so far: The dining room always has to be #12, and, you are allowed 1 15 amp circuit be it counted as a lighting receptacle. :thumbup: I guess the inspectors are just now cracking down on it. IMO, I think your inspector is correct. Having more circuits even if the dinning room is a 15 amp is common sense, since it will always be more VA no matter what. Out of curiosity, how do Canadians wire kitchens? I hear its every 2 outlets get a new circuit or something?


Problem is when Grandma calls me because your common sense 15 amp dinning room circuit keeps tripping and I have to tell her "too bad your electrician thinks he's smarter than everyone else"! You see, Grandma has this small table up against one wall with her coffee maker and toaster on it.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> Problem is when Grandma calls me because your common sense 15 amp dinning room circuit keeps tripping and I have to tell her "too bad your electrician thinks he's smarter than everyone else"! You see, Grandma has this small table up against one wall with her coffee maker and toaster on it.


Im not doubting you have seen it, but around here I have never seen it. The most dinning rooms get are an I pod charger with the occasional vacuum cleaner. And to be honest I would ask why that stuff isn't in the kitchen where other people put it, just seems like a hassle to keep it in the dinning room.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

Wow....just wow


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> Wow....just wow


Me or the other guy...:laughing::jester:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

meadow said:


> Im not doubting you have seen it, but around here I have never seen it. The most dinning rooms get are an I pod charger with the occasional vacuum cleaner. And to be honest I would ask why that stuff isn't in the kitchen where other people put it, just seems like a hassle to keep it in the dinning room.


 How dare she put her coffee maker on the table! Get the hell up Grandma and walk to the kitchen to fill that cup! You need the exercise!

Maybe people are different around here? But I see a few coffee makers and toasters on the dinning room table. Always a small dinning room, always a small table against the wall. The old folks sit there, read the paper and have toast and coffee.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

backstay said:


> How dare she put her coffee maker on the table! Get the hell up Grandma and walk to the kitchen to fill that cup! You need the exercise!
> 
> Maybe people are different around here? But I see a few coffee makers and toasters on the dinning room table. Always a small dinning room, always a small table against the wall. The old folks sit there, read the paper and have toast and coffee.


I have never seen it around here. It may be a custom in your area but again where I live dining rooms see the least load.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with post #48.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> On new construction and rewiring I run a 20 amp afci for the dining room , but I tag all the living room and dinette area outlets from the same ckt.
> 
> Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


Might not be to code but its a smart move since the living room is where all the heavy stuff gets used:thumbsup:


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

meadow said:


> Might not be to code but its a smart move since the living room is where all the heavy stuff gets used:thumbsup:


I bet your customers won't think its so smart when they are in the middle of a Super Bowl party, all the friends are there and excitement is in the air, nescos are full of delicious food sitting on the dining room table, and then pop, their goes the tv and sound system. Why did it happen? Oh that's right, because they picked the wrong electrician. They picked the one who thought he was smarter than all the rest and didn't need to follow NEC and tied the dining room and living room together. 

Why not just do it the correct way?

Jeff


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

piette said:


> I bet your customers won't think its so smart when they are in the middle of a Super Bowl party, all the friends are there and excitement is in the air, nescos are full of delicious food sitting on the dining room table, and then pop, their goes the tv and sound system. Why did it happen? Oh that's right, because they picked the wrong electrician. They picked the one who thought he was smarter than all the rest and didn't need to follow NEC and tied the dining room and living room together.
> 
> Why not just do it the correct way?
> 
> Jeff


I never said I don't follow the NEC, Im just giving my opinion on the subject. As I said, around here the dinning room sees little to no use. So having the two tied in together makes little difference. Yes I am aware that these homes are wired incorrectly (not by me), but to this day I have yet to hear any problems because of it. I think Im at least entitled to speak my personal observations on the matter.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I know it is code for the dining rec's to be required to be on a 20 amp circuit but that doesn't mean it is not another stupid code with no real backing.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> I know it is code for the dining rec's to be required to be on a 20 amp circuit but that doesn't mean it is not another stupid code with no real backing.


Agreed, and anyone that claims to do every job by the book, and never doing something against it, is FOS.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

4-20 SABC to the kitcchen, 1- 20 amp SABC to the dinning room, and 1- 20 amp circuit to the livving room. :whistling2:


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

meadow said:


> I never said I don't follow the NEC, Im just giving my opinion on the subject. As I said, around here the dinning room sees little to no use. So having the two tied in together makes little difference. Yes I am aware that these homes are wired incorrectly (not by me), but to this day I have yet to hear any problems because of it. I think Im at least entitled to speak my personal observations on the matter.


Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I in return would like an honest answer, why not just do it the right way? How much money do you really save by not following code? Do you feel you are doing your very best for your customers by not doing it up to the minimum standards of code? Do you feel your customers would still hire you if you told them ahead of time that you intend to wire their home below the minimum standards of NEC? Seems to me a paying customer deserves to know when things are going to be done below standard

Jeff


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

piette said:


> Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I in return would like an honest answer, why not just do it the right way? How much money do you really save by not following code? Do you feel you are doing your very best for your customers by not doing it up to the minimum standards of code? Do you feel your customers would still hire you if you told them ahead of time that you intend to wire their home below the minimum standards of NEC? Seems to me a paying customer deserves to know when things are going to be done below standard
> 
> Jeff


Just because its the NEC doesn't mean it's the correct or right or best way. For instance, look up how many RV sites you can put on a 200 amp circuit. The code standard may work in Maine, but not in the south. Same as, in this area, dining rooms are used for offices and tables only, and a 10 amp circuit would be fine. Let us all not forget that it isn't like we're accustomed to in other parts of the country. Here is a question for you, do you honestly follow the code to the letter on everything you do?


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

T&K said:


> Just because its the NEC doesn't mean it's the correct or right or best way. For instance, look up how many RV sites you can put on a 200 amp circuit. The code standard may work in Maine, but not in the south. Same as, in this area, dining rooms are used for offices and tables only, and a 10 amp circuit would be fine. Let us all not forget that it isn't like we're accustomed to in other parts of the country. Here is a question for you, do you honestly follow the code to the letter on everything you do?



No I don't follow the code to the letter. The code is the minimum you can do, I try to do better than the minimum as often as I can. If doing things below the minimum standard is fine with you, then that's your deal, I just feel bad for your customers that are unaware they aren't getting at least the minimum. 

Personally I think "people don't use their dining rooms around here" is a pretty weak excuse for not wiring to code. What people use any room for is no excuse to wire something below standards. 

Again, I ask, how much are you saving by not wiring to code? By not giving the customer the option to use their dining room as an extension of their kitchen if they choose too. What's the real cost difference to wire below standards? What are you saving, maybe $40 per house? 12-2 is about $25 more per 250' around here. If you use 100' of wire, what is that savings, about $10? Now let's assume you really want to give your customers a quality job and you pull a separate feed for the dining room. So let's jump it up to 200' of wire, $20 in wire and what $20 in labor? Either way you are pulling wire around that room. So the difference in labor is only the time to run a feed. On new construction that is minimal time.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like $40 on a $6000 job is pretty inconsequential. If that $40 will make or break the job you are doing something else very wrong.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

piette said:


> No I don't follow the code to the letter. The code is the minimum you can do, I try to do better than the minimum as often as I can. If doing things below the minimum standard is fine with you, then that's your deal, I just feel bad for your customers that are unaware they aren't getting at least the minimum. Personally I think "people don't use their dining rooms around here" is a pretty weak excuse for not wiring to code. What people use any room for is no excuse to wire something below standards. Again, I ask, how much are you saving by not wiring to code? By not giving the customer the option to use their dining room as an extension of their kitchen if they choose too. What's the real cost difference to wire below standards? What are you saving, maybe $40 per house? 12-2 is about $25 more per 250' around here. If you use 100' of wire, what is that savings, about $10? Now let's assume you really want to give your customers a quality job and you pull a separate feed for the dining room. So let's jump it up to 200' of wire, $20 in wire and what $20 in labor? Either way you are pulling wire around that room. So the difference in labor is only the time to run a feed. On new construction that is minimal time. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like $40 on a $6000 job is pretty inconsequential. If that $40 will make or break the job you are doing something else very wrong.



How much new construction do you do?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

piette said:


> No I don't follow the code to the letter. The code is the minimum you can do, I try to do better than the minimum as often as I can.
> Maybe it's just me, but it seems like $40 on a $6000 job is pretty inconsequential. If that $40 will make or break the job you are doing something else very wrong.


I agree that minimum code is just that. Tract home electricians can't afford to give the 'extra' attention to detail or free circuit. Now that doesn't mean cheating on code requirements. Around here, Decora devices are pretty well the standard. However, non-custom homes will have Decora switches, Decora receptacles for the kitchen and standard receptacles for the lower units. How much is saved? Maybe $ 40, if that.
I guess it's no different than the manufacturer who saves a penny for a million whatevers. $40 per house adds up over the year for the contractor and the customer doesn't know the difference. As a matter of fact, they would rather spend an extra 4K for the bathroom taps


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

piette said:


> Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I in return would like an honest answer, why not just do it the right way? How much money do you really save by not following code? Do you feel you are doing your very best for your customers by not doing it up to the minimum standards of code? Do you feel your customers would still hire you if you told them ahead of time that you intend to wire their home below the minimum standards of NEC? Seems to me a paying customer deserves to know when things are going to be done below standard
> 
> Jeff


Being honest many including myself just didn't know better. There was a period where dinning rooms received which ever circuit was closet to them, not so much because it saved money but because no one knew better. Heck to this day there are sparkies who are still running GEC out of subpanels when mains on the outside even though the code says otherwise. 

As for customers they get what they ask for. They know ahead of time what they are looking for. Ones who ask for minimum standards get what code allows to the best of knowledge. 2SABC, bath circuit, washer, Disp and diposer, 3va per foot plus any large appliances. Panel GFI feeds through for all exteriors plus garage plugs. Few circuits but meets code.

High end gets what those need. Separate lighting circuits, 20amp circuits per room, multiple SABCs, 2AL SER for an attic that might be finished latter, garage subpanel for future workshop or car charger... Kitchen stove gets both a 15 amp outlet and a gas stub along with a 50amp plug so the owner can choose between gas and electric at any point in time. Fridge, wine cooler, all on their own circuits. 







T&K said:


> Just because its the NEC doesn't mean it's the correct or right or best way. For instance, look up how many RV sites you can put on a 200 amp circuit. The code standard may work in Maine, but not in the south. Same as, in this area, dining rooms are used for offices and tables only, and a 10 amp circuit would be fine. Let us all not forget that it isn't like we're accustomed to in other parts of the country. Here is a question for you, do you honestly follow the code to the letter on everything you do?


I agree with you on this. The NEC is a one size fits all that tries to meet the least common denominator. (Its more to cover the butt of those who want bare minimum) Usually works but not always. Some applications its over kill while others its not enough. That's why the NEC leaves a lot open to personal choice. Granted not the dinning room but most others are open to option. 10 amps would work for dinning rooms here as well. Actually up north some bedrooms could use double the circuits because of space heaters where down south a single 15 amp could cover 8 bedrooms and then some. 


I don't think any electrician wants to admit it, but I think we all have violated code at one point including myself. Not out of intention but simply habit or just not knowing any better. When you work long hours every day in all directions cracking open a code book becomes the last on your list.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> How much new construction do you do?


100' of wire.... It's obvious there is way more than code minimum going on in the dining room he wires...my guess is not much new construction, buying those 250' rolls.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

T&K said:


> 100' of wire.... It's obvious there is way more than code minimum going on in the dining room he wires...my guess is not much new construction, buying those 250' rolls.


 I Wire houses with 250 ft coils. When you get old and broken down, the 1000 footers get a little heavy.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

T&K said:


> 100' of wire.... It's obvious there is way more than code minimum going on in the dining room he wires...my guess is not much new construction, buying those 250' rolls.


I said 100' because it's easy math and....well quite honestly because if I figured the real amount of wire and labor that it would equate to, you and the very few others that insist it's ok to violate code would really look pathetic at how small the difference is in cost. 

My company wires on average 70 houses a year. We do about 10-12 houses a year that are over 12,000 sq ft, the majority are between 3,000 and 6,000 sq ft. 

I'm not sure where you buy wire, but in my area, their is literally zero savings to buy 4 250' rolls or 1 1000' roll. Considering i have found I pay out more labor on a house using only 1000' rolls, my guess is due to the weight and bulk, I stick with 250' rolls. 

You obviously do a whole lot more new construction than I do, I buy all my wire by the pallet, you must be buying at least 2 pallets at a time I guess. Or it's probably more likely you are going to Home Depot and buying blue carlon boxes and a few rolls of wire and all your devices just like all the other fly by night guys are doing that don't worry about what codes are.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

T&K said:


> 100' of wire.... It's obvious there is way more than code minimum going on in the dining room he wires...my guess is not much new construction, buying those 250' rolls.


By the way, I would say its fair to say the average dining room around here, even in the small spec homes require 4 receptacles. Assuming 12 ft apart, you use about 15 ft of wire each. Now go over a door or over the room to connect and you are easily at 60 ft. And don't forget to feed those receptacles, 100 ft isn't that far of a stretch.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

piette said:


> By the way, I would say its fair to say the average dining room around here, even in the small spec homes require 4 receptacles. Assuming 12 ft apart, you use about 15 ft of wire each. Now go over a door or over the room to connect and you are easily at 60 ft. And don't forget to feed those receptacles, 100 ft isn't that far of a stretch.


who cares


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

You have made quite the business since 2008. Congratulations. If you expect me to believe that you wire 70 houses a year, and they are all 100% to the letter by the book, pardon me while I clear my throat.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> You have made quite the business since 2008. Congratulations. If you expect me to believe that you wire 70 houses a year, and they are all 100% to the letter by the book, pardon me while I clear my throat.


Dude, if you look at his avatar it kinds of gives it away...


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> Dude, if you look at his avatar it kinds of gives it away...


I'm not up on this Internet forum stuff, and quite frankly, I'm kinda seeing why I, nor anyone else I know fools with it. What/who is his avatar?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

T&K said:


> I'm not up on this Internet forum stuff, and quite frankly, I'm kinda seeing why I, nor anyone else I know fools with it. What/who is his avatar?


:laughing: Stay around, its not all like this.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

meadow said:


> :laughing: Stay around, its not all like this.


Just 95% of it...


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

T&K said:


> You have made quite the business since 2008. Congratulations. If you expect me to believe that you wire 70 houses a year, and they are all 100% to the letter by the book, pardon me while I clear my throat.


I welcome you to inspect any house we wire at anytime. We have some very tough inspectors around here, we don't ever fail an inspection. Our inspectors will pull the wires out of boxes and check for mechanically fastened grounds in every box. They will check cu. in. of every box, if you miss re-identifying the white conductor in the 14-3 of your 3 way they fail your rough in. 

We don't have the option of not going to the letter of the code. On the one hand it's a bit excessive in my opinion, when they take 3-4 hours for the electrical rough- in of a sub 2000 sq ft house. On the other hand, their salaries are paid by the taxes of the residents and our inspectors are one of the few government employees that I feel truly work for the tax payers by insuring contractors are doing their jobs correctly.


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## piette (Feb 7, 2008)

meadow said:


> Dude, if you look at his avatar it kinds of gives it away...


Coming from the guy that keeps spelling something as simple as dining "dinning" or he learned to things, not two.


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

piette said:


> My company wires on average 70 houses a year. We do about 10-12 houses a year that are over 12,000 sq ft, the majority are between 3,000 and 6,000 sq ft.
> .


Man that's a bunch of houses. That's a far cry from being ready to close your doors in 2010, taking the letters off your van, and going illegal. You must live in an extremely populated area to be wiring so many houses. I bet the inspection department loves you since you keep at least 2 of them in a job. 3 hours for a 2000 square foot house x 70 per year is 2100 hours, and thats just the rough in. A normal work year for a state employee is 2080 hours. Since most of your work is 3000-6000 square feet, those must take all day. You should be very proud of yourself. I wish where I live there was a housing boom since 2010 that would keep me, or anyone else that busy.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

piette said:


> ...we don't ever fail an inspection.


Did anyone bring a shovel?


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## T&K (Jun 18, 2012)

AllWIRES said:


> Did anyone bring a shovel?


I wrote multiple paragraphs in what you summed up in 1 sentence... Bravo


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

piette said:


> Coming from the guy that keeps spelling something as simple as dining "dinning" or he learned to things, not two.


Coming from someone who isn't perfect either


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