# Union vs non union



## JayHova

I've worked for my friends dad at his electrical company for 4 yrs now. I've worked their my entire apprenticeship and am now a journeyman electrician. I feel a sense or loyalty towards him and the company, but he is such a cheap ass. He pays me well below journeyman wage which is an average of $28-$32 cdn. I get $22 even tho I'm the top guy in the company. The reason I've stayed so long is because I've got steady work even tho we are slow, he always keeps me busy. 

I was thinking of joining the union and leaving the company because of the wage increase and benefits etc... Trying to weigh out the pros and cons. Do any of u work for union? How do u like it? Let me kno. Thanks!


----------



## catfishjack

someone might as well go ahead and shut this down right now.


----------



## 360max

...join the union while your young and get all those pension years in (years worked multiplied by $ equals your pension).
*How much is in your annuity? 
Any type of pension set up thru company?
How about a 401K?*

*I would bet the answer to those three questions is none, none, none!
*


----------



## rdr

:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## mikeh32

if you are working, stay. dont leave


----------



## HARRY304E

catfishjack said:


> someone might as well go ahead and shut this down right now.


I'm sure we can get at least 650 posts out of this thread.

What could go wrong?.:blink::laughing::laughing:


----------



## 360max

mikeh32 said:


> if you are working, stay. dont leave


I also agree, I would wait til the economy takes a turn for the better than.....go union!!


----------



## mikeh32

360max said:


> I also agree, I would wait til the economy takes a turn for the better than.....go union!!


I agree with this completely!


----------



## BBQ

360max said:


> I also agree, I would wait til the economy takes a turn for the better than.....go union!!


I also think this is sound advice.


----------



## mikeh32

another thing, make sure you get records of all your work! It will help out a lot if you do go union


Btw, I am in the union


----------



## Wireman191

I'm glad to see so many people being civil about this
In the long run Union is the way to go, you cant beat the Bennie's, or the pay. Unless you are BBQ:jester:


----------



## Wireman191

On a side note...... I will be out of work for about 2 months But I will be OK with it because I don't live beyond what unemployment pays me.


----------



## Southeast Power

JayHova said:


> I've worked for my friends dad at his electrical company for 4 yrs now. I've worked their my entire apprenticeship and am now a journeyman electrician. I feel a sense or loyalty towards him and the company, but he is such a cheap ass. He pays me well below journeyman wage which is an average of $28-$32 cdn. I get $22 even tho I'm the top guy in the company. The reason I've stayed so long is because I've got steady work even tho we are slow, he always keeps me busy.
> 
> I was thinking of joining the union and leaving the company because of the wage increase and benefits etc... Trying to weigh out the pros and cons. Do any of u work for union? How do u like it? Let me kno. Thanks!


I had the chance to get in when I was in my early 20s and it worked out well. 
Do you expect to just walk in and sign the book? 
What is the procedure to join in Canada? 
Is there work for you?
How long have you been in the trade?


----------



## running dummy

Another vote for staying where you are at until the the economy turns around


----------



## Pompadour

i am union, as well. i agree with everyone who says, eventually, you should go union. the medical benefits, pension, annuity... makes being in the union more than worth it. if you compare wages/bennies in the union vs. non-union... well, there is no comparison. hell, even when laid off most of a year, i make more than a lot of my non-union friends.

the guy is not paying you what the other guys are getting, because he can. when times are good again, join the union.

keep records of your time. does anyone remember if you still have to have 7 years experience before upgrading to book 1?


----------



## brian john

There is little you can get out of work that is lasting beyond retirement. THE UNION RETIREMENT IS TOP NOTCH. If you are young, can get in and work. BOY GO FOR IT.

And many in here will tell you I seldom beat the drum for the union. But the benefits, pay and retirement (assuming there is work) is hard to beat.


----------



## JayHova

I've worked for four years.. The thing is the shipyards (union) has just signed a 10 billion dollar deal and there is gonna be lots of work in the future. I was thinking to get in now even if it's slow coz it's guaranteed work in the future


----------



## MattMc

Sounds like you have a plan. Truth is that it is different all over the place city to city local to local, and non union some are steady some are slow sometimes things are booming. Eventually it evens out I know alot of people who have left the union when times got tough, and many who will always be there. Your goals and priorities should answer this for you. Personally if I was in your shoes from what you've said I'd wait till the big contracts hit.


----------



## chris856

When the time is right do it. I just switched sides not too long ago and I doubt I will ever go back, when you do the math it just makes sense. Factoring in health and welfare and pension I am making double what I was before.
I've been the good guy and the team player more than once and ended up with squat for it. As far as I can see, the only way to be really successful is to go in business for yourself or go join the union.


----------



## That's It?

You're being salted. Stay loyal.


----------



## BBQ

Wireman191 said:


> I'm glad to see so many people being civil about this
> In the long run Union is the way to go, you cant beat the Bennie's, or the pay. Unless you are BBQ:jester:


I like how it is considered civil if we all say the union is good, but if some voices another view it would be uncivil. :laughing:

Without question any newbie should look into the union, they should also look at their other options, they are making decisions that will effect their lives for a long time. 

While many people join the union, get a lot out of it and work steady there are also many that have joined and decided it is not for them.

People are all very different so no one can say the union way is the best route for all but they would be stupid not to look into it.


----------



## Cletis

*unions*

I don't know much about unions other than this

My uncle was president of a big local back in 70's and dad worked union for 10 yrs before going ununion solo. 

I've had 10 or so guys that were all union work for me. They all sucked. They were lazy, complained alot, complained about pay alot, complained about lack of breaks alot, talked alot. 

I think it was the complaining that bothered me the most.


----------



## Bkessler

JayHova said:


> I've worked for my friends dad at his electrical company for 4 yrs now. I've worked their my entire apprenticeship and am now a journeyman electrician. I feel a sense or loyalty towards him and the company, but he is such a cheap ass. He pays me well below journeyman wage which is an average of $28-$32 cdn. I get $22 even tho I'm the top guy in the company. The reason I've stayed so long is because I've got steady work even tho we are slow, he always keeps me busy.
> 
> I was thinking of joining the union and leaving the company because of the wage increase and benefits etc... Trying to weigh out the pros and cons. Do any of u work for union? How do u like it? Let me kno. Thanks!


With only 4 years experience your so green you probably don't deserve more money than that. A journeymen with 15+ years experience is worth 30+ an hour. You need to get at least 6 more years in. I always say, guys with 4-8 years experience are the most dangerous. They are to inexperienced and way to overconfident.


----------



## Cletis

*disagree*



Bkessler said:


> With only 4 years experience your so green you probably don't deserve more money than that. A journeymen with 15+ years experience is worth 30+ an hour. You need to get at least 6 more years in. I always say, guys with 4-8 years experience are the most dangerous. They are to inexperienced and way to overconfident.


That's what's killing america. years on job don't mean squat. It's ability and production and/or both. Some guys get lazier after 15-20 years. That's why they need to go into managing things more at advanced ages of 40+


----------



## tkb

A new poster with a question like this, Hmmm.

Seems like someone changed their login.
I call troll.


----------



## Bkessler

Cletis said:


> That's what's killing america. years on job don't mean squat. It's ability and production and/or both. Some guys get lazier after 15-20 years. That's why they need to go into managing things more at advanced ages of 40+


Your right to a degree, but it always takes experience. All the really smart guys have years of field experience and have seen a lot if different things. Four years ain't shi.t.


----------



## sparky970

Cletis said:


> I don't know much about unions other than this
> 
> My uncle was president of a big local back in 70's and dad worked union for 10 yrs before going ununion solo.
> 
> I've had 10 or so guys that were all union work for me. They all sucked. They were lazy, complained alot, complained about pay alot, complained about lack of breaks alot, talked alot.
> 
> I think it was the complaining that bothered me the most.


Those are the ones that ride the book all the time.


----------



## lefleuron

No matter what you always have to think about the future.

Nobody wants to be 50 years old driving an old truck and living in a trailer. And unfortunatly this is what happens to a lot of guys who work without benefits. Especially health insurance.

These are the same people who never gave a thought to pension when they were 25. Now they are 55 and are hoping they can get by on 1200 bucks a month S.S. and the little they can squirell away before 65.

Everyone in this country working for a low wage without benefits is going to be in this boat. The "oh crap, I am 55 and wont be able to retire because I thought it was a good idea to work without pension or 401K for the last 30 years" boat.

But hey, I was loyal. 


Go where the benefits are. You will be happy you did in 30 years, instead of wondering if you can afford heat in the winter when you are 70. Or choosing which medicine you can afford, and which you have to go without.

It does not matter in the long run if you were union or not, as long as the benefits are there in the end.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

sparky970 said:


> Those are the ones that ride the book all the time.


My local is near 50% Unemployment right now. Even the guys who aren't whiners are not getting work right now. I say go union if you can get steady work. One thing I've been seeing lately is more and more politics. I've also seen buddys kept working over better electricians/apprentices. That frustrates me.


----------



## jordan_paul

That's It? said:


> You're being salted. Stay loyal.


Staying loyal is the absolute worst thing you can do. There is no such thing as loyalty anymore, and that's because the employers aren't loyal to their employees. They are in it to make money. Don't believe me? Screw up really bad, or if the SHTF in your bosses company, guess what, you're going to be the first one ****-canned. Move up when you can, because you'll be the first one gone if things go bad.


----------



## lefleuron

The days of a company being loyal to anyone are over.

Money is too tight these days, and no matter how large or small a company is they cannot afford the cost of an employee that constantly screws up.

The days when the biggest idiot in a shop could be kept busy doing "nothing important" are over. If everyone is not contributing, not everyone will be here next month.


----------



## troublemaker1701

Wireman191 said:


> On a side note...... I will be out of work for about 2 months But I will be OK with it because I don't live beyond what unemployment pays me.


another side think of your retirement with your annuity and pension funds.
:thumbup:retired and loving it:thumbup:


----------



## Lz_69

How ever you look at it you are getting shafted and union or not you should be able to find a company that pays around $30 an hour along with the benefits you are after. As for going union or non union talk to people you know on both sides of the fence in your area and figure it out what works best for you.


----------



## Wireman191

troublemaker1701 said:


> another side think of your retirement with your annuity and pension funds.
> :thumbup:retired and loving it:thumbup:


 With starting out at such a young age they project I will retire with around 1.7 mil


----------



## Wireman191

BBQ said:


> I like how it is considered civil if we all say the union is good, but if some voices another view it would be uncivil. :laughing:
> 
> Without question any newbie should look into the union, they should also look at their other options, they are making decisions that will effect their lives for a long time.
> 
> While many people join the union, get a lot out of it and work steady there are also many that have joined and decided it is not for them.
> 
> People are all very different so no one can say the union way is the best route for all but they would be stupid not to look into it.


 I agree with that. One cool thing I see about being In is the ability to hit the road and work just about anywhere in the world, When I first started that was a big selling point for me.


----------



## sparky970

Wireman191 said:


> With starting out at such a young age they project I will retire with around 1.7 mil


And not have to worry if SS will be there.


----------



## cccp sparky

I been living a here since 1991. In a old country I did the task of repairing instrumentaion on gas pipeline and power plant. I find a no work here because of a union when I come. Theyse tell me I have a to being new apprentice. Noway. Not good union.


----------



## JayHova

tkb said:


> A new poster with a question like this, Hmmm.
> 
> Seems like someone changed their login.
> I call troll.


What's that supposed to mean? I don't kno what troll means on the Internet lol


----------



## JayHova

Bkessler said:


> Your right to a degree, but it always takes experience. All the really smart guys have years of field experience and have seen a lot if different things. Four years ain't shi.t.


Yea maybe 4. Yrs aint **** but it really does depend on the person. I'm a life long learner and never feel like I know enough. I'm the top guy at my company now and have been running jobs since my 2nd yr. I also manage the company when my boss is away on holidays. For what I do I think I deserve more. 

I also want to join the union because I'd like to work for the shipyards and work on stuff I haven't had a chance to yet due to the fact I'm just doing residential work atm


----------



## brian john

JayHova said:


> Yea maybe 4. Yrs aint **** but it really does depend on the person. I'm a life long learner and never feel like I know enough. I'm the top guy at my company now and have been running jobs since my 2nd yr. I also manage the company when my boss is away on holidays. For what I do I think I deserve more.



A certain amount of (careful) confidence, coupled with a can do attitude and a wiliness to read and learn goes a long way.

Have you talked to your boss about all this? If he appreciates you he may boost your pay or may tell you to go for the union.


----------



## rdr

JayHova said:


> Yea maybe 4. Yrs aint **** but it really does depend on the person. I'm a life long learner and never feel like I know enough. I'm the top guy at my company now and have been running jobs since my 2nd yr. I also manage the company when my boss is away on holidays. For what I do I think I deserve more.
> 
> I also want to join the union because I'd like to work for the shipyards and work on stuff I haven't had a chance to yet due to the fact I'm just doing residential work atm


I started out union for the first couple of years in the trade. The only reason I left is because I couldn't get the lateral transfer I wanted. Basically, I was moving whether they "allowed" me or not. Anyway, this was my first experience being non-union.

I got left to do the majority of a bank as a third year. The job would have sunk if there hadn't had another one of our company's jobs going next door to "rob" material from. You'd order material planning 4 and 5 weeks out and it was taking twice that long to get there. Like when I'm already building panel guts and getting wire in the truck comes out with all the beam clamps, strut straps, and minerallacs I'd ordered ages ago. 

Their "project manager" overseeing the job, from what I saw of him, his duties basically consisted of coming out about once a week trying to bum a smoke off me and going "You still don't have any material? All right, we'll see you later." Toward the end, they sent me a guy to help a bit that had apparently been 30 years in the trade. I....the apprentice....had to EXPLAIN TO HIM why we couldn't put 2 reds on the same neutral.:no: I moved on to one more job for them after that, but I wasn't shedding too many tears when they laid me off.

On the other hand I've had much much better experiences since. Overall, I don't have anything bad to say about the union, at least not the local that I was in. I imagine there is good and bad on both sides of that fence.


----------



## 360max

Cletis said:


> I don't know much about unions other than this
> 
> My uncle was president of a big local back in 70's and dad worked union for 10 yrs before going ununion solo.
> 
> I've had 10 or so guys that were all union work for me. They all sucked. They were lazy, complained alot, complained about pay alot, complained about lack of breaks alot, talked alot.
> 
> *I think it was the complaining that bothered me the most.*


*
* what do you expect when you make them bring their personal drills, benders, pulling machines, triple nickel, etc.....:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## RobRoy

360max said:


> what do you expect when you make them bring their personal drills, benders, pulling machines, triple nickel, etc.....:whistling2::laughing:


I would expect that person to work, as that is what they are being paid to do. The typical union crybabies whining about having to provide their own tools. I used to be union. I now work for a nonunion company. Look at some of my tools that my nonunion company provides for me. I can guarantee you that they are better than what most union shops around here have for even their best guys. I am good friends with some very good union hands, and still a dues paying member. :thumbup:
You are only as good as you make yourself to be. A piece of śhit is going to be a piece of śhit, whether he provides his own tools, or the company he works for does.....:whistling2:

Call me crazy, this is my opinion...:boxing:


----------



## sparky970

robroy952 said:


> I would expect that person to work, as that is what they are being paid to do. The typical union crybabies whining about having to provide their own tools. I used to be union. I now work for a nonunion company. Look at some of my tools that my nonunion company provides for me. I can guarantee you that they are better than what most union shops around here have for even their best guys. I am good friends with some very good union hands, and still a dues paying member. :thumbup:
> You are only as good as you make yourself to be. A piece of śhit is going to be a piece of śhit, whether he provides his own tools, or the company he works for does.....:whistling2:
> 
> Call me crazy, this is my opinion...:boxing:


You're a dues paying member and you're working nonunion? Does the hall know?:blink:


----------



## RobRoy

You bet they due. They don't have work. I have kids, and a house payment. They are fortunate that I still am a member. But a man has got to work!!!:whistling2:

How is the work in WA? My dad lives in Bend, and the work sucks there...
I've been working 60 hour weeks for the last few months. I am very happy to be this busy.


----------



## Wireman191

robroy952 said:


> You bet they due. They don't have work. I have kids, and a house payment. They are fortunate that I still am a member. But a man has got to work!!!:whistling2:
> 
> How is the work in WA? My dad lives in Bend, and the work sucks there...
> I've been working 60 hour weeks for the last few months. I am very happy to be this busy.


 If there is no work I know a few guys that have joined a nonunion shop with the blessing of the hall. When we needed people to man the data centers they were asked to come back.


----------



## RobRoy

Are you guys busy up there? Our hall is DEAD IN THE WATER right now.

I got in with an oil lease company where I have 5 weeks vacation each year, Paid holidays, my own office, a very heavy quarterly bonus, they match my 401K (I've put in over 6 grand this year, and it has been matched!!!), a company vehicle I take home (always on call), and have not had a week less than 40 hours in the last 1-1/5 years.

I am pretty good friends with all my union..... I'm sure there are some that talk crap..... I am just doing what I can to better my future.


----------



## Wireman191

There is usually a call or two a day. I'm off at the moment but was able to work steady for most of the last 5 years. I'm thinking of taking an ROF to go hit some data center calls but that means I gotta load the camper up and deal with frozen pipes and all that fun stuff.
It got freezing over night in a hurry around here!


----------

