# Job recovery fund.



## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

We have market recovery, not sure how well its working right now. We are currently implementing a "small works agreement" that is supposed to help us pick up smaller jobs. Dont know if its going to work either. Under this agreement a JW that takes a call for a MOU job will take a 30% reduction in pay, but receive full benie's. It's going to last one year and then they will reasses it, so we will see if it works


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

You pay your boss 2% in order to keep your job? Makes me wonder why they just don't make the wages a bit more realistic and get that same 2% or more in readjusted labor costs?


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## wirenut1110 (Feb 12, 2008)

There needs to be one of those 'the following user thanks you for this useful post' on this site.:thumbup:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*other side of the coin*

I am not a big fan of this fund. It’s like a tax and once they take out of your check there really are no checks and balances to see where it goes. Well in truth I know where it goes, it goes into the general fund where it may or may not be doled out to whomever the BA happens to favor. Ever ask for an accounting of it? Do so at your own risk, because it is not making it to us contractors.

It would be one thing if IBEW had a council or group that targeted the jobs we want, then let the contractors know, hey this job has x number of job recovery dollars budgeted and the all the union contractors get an edge and a fair playing field. 

However this is far from what happens, there is so much red tape and road blocks it’s almost impossible for me to get this money, even when other union contractors get it for the same job. Just recently I found out one of my union competitors is getting it for a job we both bid on and when I asked for it I was told it was not available for that job. 

That money is being used for game playing and favorite contractors, in the next negotiations I am going to lobby to stop the program, there is no reason why my guys should have to pay into a program they will never benefit from. Imagine that, a contractor standing up to the union for the rights of his electricians….who would of thunk it?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You pay your boss 2% in order to keep your job? Makes me wonder why they just don't make the wages a bit more realistic and get that same 2% or more in readjusted labor costs?


I dont pay my boss anything.The wages are realistic the "open shop" needs to get realistic and stop paying people $15 a hour.A 2% pay decrease or "readjusted labor costs" wouldnt help much either,the J.R. fund was voted on by the membership to help the labor AND the contractor .In the philadelphia area 90% of the work is done union but in the counties theres alot of work done non union.This helps "US" compete in this market and its a way to invest in OUR selves so that EVERYONE can work and the contractor can still turn a profit.
In my local it's not about just taking care of yourself but looking out for the next guy too.
PhatElvis Im sure theres alot of politicing that goes on in who gets the money and how much.But I know the contractor I work for is pretty much a no one when it comes to favriotism from the local.
And as far as the money being used in the genreal fund is concerned,I doubt it with the amount of auditting that has been going on lately,we get quarterly statements telling us how much is in health and wellfair,pension,sub fund,and job recovery.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

You have 90%, we have >10%, your local is obviously doing something right.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> In the philadelphia area 90% of the work is done union but in the counties theres alot of work done non union.


Is this a serious number or just a guess?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Sounds like "redistribution" to me.

Does GM ring a bell?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Is this a serious number or just a guess?


 Its a serious number based off expierence,and observations.I'm born and raised in philly and I can tell you union labor is king.When I worked open shop it was always way out in the burbs and in south jersey,never in the city.Even certain areas outside the city are mostly union.
The numbers dont lie mebership up from 1993 we had 1000 members.
Now we have around 4000 members contractor membership is up also from about 35 to 350 signatory contractors. We had full employment for about 12 years now.With things just now starting to slow down we still have the highest employment rate in the area.
When I worked open shop I worked mostly out of the ground new construction and the open shop G.C's wouldnt even touch a bid in the city.
I dont have a scientific study with numbers proving my percentage but its just my honest veiw of the work situation where I live and work.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Times must be bad.
One must EXTORT money from another so they can work.

Appears to be a ploy to reap money to keep the dying breed alive.

Used to be just give an honest number, and most likely you would get the job.

I suppose with all the inflated rates and such.............

Lets not flatter our selfs. But get what we are worth.

We have OSHA and State laws to keep our selfs safe now. And a number of other labor laws. In this industry. The time has come and gone.

When a NON-UNION shop can do the job for less AND pay the prevailing wage...... Time to reconsider.
We don't need a local.

Again: Does GM ring a bell?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

The job recovery is normally not used on P.W jobs because its not needed.The costs of labor is the same on these jobs so the bids will be tighter,these jobs tend to end up going union anyway.(Based on my expierence.)
Every market is diffrent,were you work mabey the open shops pay P.W.
But not were I live,the vast majority of open shop contractors dont pay even close.
There model usually works like this;Foreman makes $25-$35 per hour then there will be like 6 or 7 19-20 year old KIDS under the foreman making $10 or $12 per hour.
When our contractors are bidding against these types of labor costs then the job recovery comes in to play. 
I don't see this as extortion.I see it as an example of(ready drumroll please)...................The labor AND the contractor working togethor,we get to work for a higher wage AND the contractor can turn a profit-I happen to be a fan of both.
As for the 19 yearold kid,I was there once,busting my hump year after year,job after job,for the same contractor.Always hoping that my hard work and dedication would pay off,Well eventially that kid grows up,thank god I did.
OH buy the way the prevailing wages,the labor laws,the job sight saftey,oasha all these things that I believe is every working persons right.
Well you can thank the labor unions for.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

Well said slickvic277. That's a lot like it is here. Unfortunately there is a very large open shop here that cheats the prevailing wage constantly, and by doing so can bid with the big players then throw helpers and apprentices on the job and screw EVERYONE in this industry. I'll add another to that list of things labor unions have done for us, but this is more specific, Proper Training. And I don't mean schooling, I'm talking on the job training by a qaulified journeymen wireman. There are A LOT of people coming up through this trade not getting proper training, I was one of them and I worked for one of the "better" open shops.
There are a lot of good open shops out there, but dont kid yourself into thinking that the IBEW has done nothing positive for you and your livelihood


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

--OH buy the way the prevailing wages,the labor laws,the job sight saftey,oasha all these things that I believe is every working persons right.
Well you can thank the labor unions for.--


I could not agree more. And thank you!:thumbsup:

However the time has come and gone. Now it is just overpriced projects.That we as TAXPAYERS are paying for.

Prevailing wage is a national law. If they don't abide by it you have a bigger issue.

Again GM: Any reason we have to pay $40K for a $10K vehicle?

2/3 of the price is going to people that don't work.
Not sure about you,But I put some away every week. Coz' I don't want to depend (nor should I) on someone else for my well being.

Now we can look at: Polaroid-General electric-Sylvania-- The list goes on.
Lets learn from it and go back to basics. Protect yourself.

Nah, Barry will do that for us.... See Ya on the other side.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

So as I understand it you can't compete fairily in the open market so you buy your work, and this is from the Obama School of Economics, I would have to assume.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

As I don't at all agree with you having to pay back your employer for them getting you a job, if it was truly voted on and approved by the members than that's that. It was not a forced issue but a member approved one.

What sucks about it is that they're taking 2% of the GROSS, not 2% of the net.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Basically it is a 2% cut in pay for the employee. Wonder what his base pay is?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Well sinse this argument can go on and on for ever and ever and ever...........................I guess we can agree to dis agree(I hate that saying).
The journeyman rate here is $47 per hour in the check.So 2% is $37.60 a week,times that by 52 weeks=$1955.20 a year.
now $47ph for 40 hours =$1880.00 gross.
The way I see it if Im on a job that uses J.R money for a week I pretty much break even.When Im there for a year,on a job that I might not have been on at all without the job recovery money I veiw it as a good thing.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Its a serious number based off expierence,and observations.I'm born and raised in philly and I can tell you union labor is king.When I worked open shop it was always way out in the burbs and in south jersey,never in the city.Even certain areas outside the city are mostly union......
> When I worked open shop I worked mostly out of the ground new construction and the open shop G.C's wouldnt even touch a bid in the city.
> .


You know at first I seemed wary of your number. One of the first things I found on google about Philadelphia and the unions was this...
http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the_last_union_town/
From what i gather the city has or had a provision that didn't allow non-union contractors to place bids on city projects. When a taxpayers money is paying for something don't you think it should be open to everybody? Of course from that article it sounds like you need an army to challenge the union in Philadelphia. I understand that it is an article, but if you read the comments below it many people substantiate a lot of the strong arming and thuggery portrayed in the article. 
"He and his workers received threats — such as acid in their kids’ faces — if the work continued. Altemose installed a device on his car so he could start it by remote control each morning in his driveway. In June, a thousand union men showed up in Valley Forge, wearing hard hats. They trampled over the chain-link fence and began what the state Supreme Court later called “a virtual military assault,” using color-coded smoke bombs to designate targeted areas, along with firebombs and — incredibly — hand grenades."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

If paying 2% keeps them employed I understand the rational, if strong arm tactics are involved I would distance myself from that as much as possible.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dont believe everything you read,yes in philadelphia there are pro-union and anti union veiws just like everywhere else and yes people will exagerate and fabracate stories and rumors to suit there veiws.And yes philly is a very pro union town,its an old city and the unions have been here almost as long as the town has.
Most middle class people that work and live here have family or friends that are union members.Either in the building trades,twu,teamsters,firefighters,teachers,nurses ...etc.The biggest non union supporters have been politicians with special intrests but even most are pro labor here.

When it comes to city work its all prevailing wage so most open shops dont touch the bid just for that fact,plus to work P.W. here The contractor needs to have state approved journeyman and apprentice's
and most open shops dont have either.
Then there's the numerious retail,office,refinery,manufacturing and health care work in the city and these end up mostly union as well.

You wont read in the papers all the volunteer work that the unions do here,toys for tots,walk for cancer,habitat for humanity,fundraisers for local charitys.

the news papers have there own agenda.They been trying to do away with there union contracts for years.

My father worked as a twu member for 38 years and now enjoys a pension
as a retiree because of the contracts that his union was able to negotiate through those 38 years he dedicated to the company.

No matter what your veiws are,theres no denieing that unions can and do work.
To each there own.For what its worth I never started this conversation to be union vrs non union,I just was curious if other locals were using Job recovery.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Market Recovery is not used on Prevailing Wage jobs.

So quit your crying.

Market Recovery ensures that non-union shops have to bid lower and lower to get the work. I think it is doing a real nice job.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Market Recovery is not used on Prevailing Wage jobs.
> 
> So quit your crying.
> 
> Market Recovery ensures that non-union shops have to bid lower and lower to get the work. I think it is doing a real nice job.


A. Who is crying?
B. If it works to get work go for it.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> What sucks about it is that they're taking 2% of the GROSS, not 2% of the net.


 
Hey Gilbequick is Local 379 doing this?


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## Red Wiggler (Jan 22, 2009)

*Makes me wonder*

It always boils down that the Union people feel one way, and the non-union feel the opposite way.

What if....

There were no non-union shops anymore. Would Unions become stronger? Be able to negotiate better? Would wages, benefits, conditions, increase? Would quality of work come back? Would there be more money for training, for safety, for supporting laws that protect the workers against un-known hazzards that cause illnesses years after exposure, for retirements so that a person could have little somthing extra to spend instead of paying all of the deductables, and co-payment that retirees pay now? Could you live a better quality of life? Could you afford to send your children to better schools so that they might be able to have a better start in life? Would you feel more respected for what you do? Would it be better with Unions?

Probably.

But what if...

There were no Unions anymore. No contracts to protect your wages, no money to support beneficial labor laws, no Union backs to ride on, loss of benefits because of no contract, no insurance because of no contract, no retirement because of no contract. Quality of life would be less than it is now because of no contract. No one out there competing for your expertise because your value to a contractor would be measured daily.
Would it be better with out the Unions?

Probably not.

Would either of these scenarios ever come about?

Probably not.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

If you have time and an interest check this site out and read a little of this guys book (very short). Some interesting thoughts on the supply and demand factor of labor and how it can be manipulated.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Red Wiggler said:


> It always boils down that the Union people feel one way, and the non-union feel the opposite way.
> 
> What if....
> 
> ...



Again: Do the big three ring a bell? (I used to say GM,but...)
To some extent we need both. Basic check and balance.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

leland said:


> Again: Do the big three ring a bell? (I used to say GM,but...)
> To some extent we need both. Basic check and balance.


 
I agree 100%


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

william1978 said:


> I agree 100%


 
You have my vote, a good balance controls both extremes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Red Wiggler said:


> Would quality of work come back?


 
There is quality work being completed everyday, there is also hack work being completed/ Now if you are seeing hack work and you are union I WONDER??????????????????

Quality has nothing to do with union, non union it has to do with good electricians that walk both sides of the line.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've seen hack work on both sides union and non-union.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> Quality has nothing to do with union, non union it has to do with good electricians that walk both sides of the line.


 That is exactly correct.:thumbsup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm starting to think this may come down to age groups.

47, and conservative here (if you didn't notice:whistling2

No other reason than the older you are the more you been bit. (once bit & Twice shy-- OOPS wrong thread) CYA


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

leland said:


> I'm starting to think this may come down to age groups.
> 
> 47, and conservative here (if you didn't notice:whistling2
> 
> No other reason than the older you are the more you been bit. (once bit & Twice shy-- OOPS wrong thread) CYA


 
I'm a little confused now.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Ya I strayed sorry. I have noticed over the years that the younger folks are hell bent union. I (and others I know) have not had the most desired results with them,both working and as competitors.

As you grow older you grow wiser.

(The other note was reference to the '80 hair band topic.)


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Ok I got you now thanks.:thumbsup:


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

Local 76 is $1.50 an hour for journeyman and apprentices pay accordingly to the percentage they are at starting at 55%. Market Recovery


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

Ours is 6% (just lowered from 7%) so don't feel too bad.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

leland said:


> Ya I strayed sorry. I have noticed over the years that the younger folks are hell bent union. I (and others I know) have not had the most desired results with them,both working and as competitors.
> 
> As you grow older you grow wiser.
> 
> (The other note was reference to the '80 hair band topic.)


If you are not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you not a conservative at 40 you got no brain.

Me I walk the double yellow in the middle of the road and risk getting hit by both sides.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> You have 90%, we have >10%, your local is obviously doing something right.


Texas is a Right To Work (for less) State.

Hopefully Obama will change all that and Taft - Harley will go the way of the DoDo bird...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

leland said:


> Times must be bad.
> One must EXTORT money from another so they can work.
> 
> Appears to be a ploy to reap money to keep the dying breed alive.
> ...


Used to be... and that included wages with benifits. You wouldn't jew an applicant down because labor pool was large or times were bad... but not today. Today contractors employ a method called "churning." So what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 



> I suppose with all the inflated rates and such.............
> 
> Lets not flatter our selfs. But get what we are worth.
> 
> We have OSHA and State laws to keep our selfs safe now. And a number of other labor laws. In this industry. The time has come and gone.


Laws protect no one. Who enforces them on a day to day basis? In a nonunion enviroment - nobody and the laws are flagrantly violated - which is why nonunion construction projects are the industry leader in jobsite accidents.



> When a NON-UNION shop can do the job for less AND pay the prevailing wage...... Time to reconsider.
> We don't need a local.
> 
> Again: Does GM ring a bell?


When a nonunion shop pays prevailing wage and does it for less - it's an exception rather than the rule. In fact, before and after the job that paid prevailing wage, that shop never paid anyone (except the opwner) anything close to prevailing wage, and it would never pay it if there wasn't a law requiring them to do so....

Is this where we want our future to go?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

leland said:


> --OH buy the way the prevailing wages,the labor laws,the job sight saftey,oasha all these things that I believe is every working persons right.
> Well you can thank the labor unions for.--
> 
> 
> ...


Pricing in a free market is supply and demand oriented. You pay 40 G's for a 10G car because you;re willing to. Doesn't matter if that car cost 10 or 20 or 30 or 35g's to build.



> 2/3 of the price is going to people that don't work.
> Not sure about you,But I put some away every week. Coz' I don't want to depend (nor should I) on someone else for my well being.


Well good for you. How about that nonunion electrician roping houses for 10-15 bucks an hour - how much is he putting away every week for the hard times?



> Now we can look at: Polaroid-General electric-Sylvania-- The list goes on.
> Lets learn from it and go back to basics. Protect yourself.


Yes, let's all sink to a new low...



> Nah, Barry will do that for us.... See Ya on the other side.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Texas is a Right To Work (for less) State.
> 
> Hopefully Obama will change all that and Taft - Harley will go the way of the DoDo bird...


 You obviously don't understand the Right to Work laws. It does not surprise me with the indoctrination you guys get in lieu of an education. The right to work laws say if I hire someone, that membership in a trade union is their choice and should they choose to not join the union, that I have to pay them the same pay and benefits as if they were a union member, only they don't have to pay dues.

The right to work laws are good laws put in to place to create checks and balances to protect workers from the union county club mentality of only picking the "right" people to join. Giving the union the power to decide who gets to work and does not get to work is too much power and we all know what any group with too much power ends up doing with it. People do need protection from that too ya know...


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

When I held a yellow ticket, job recovery money was requested fairly often. However, it was rarely given to the small to medium size shops, mostly it went to the larger shops.

I always had a problem with this. Here was a small shop trying to eek out a niche in the market, and the big boys getting bonus money to out bid them and the open shop. No wonder the union market share here went from about 11% to about 4%. :laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> You obviously don't understand the Right to Work laws. It does not surprise me with the indoctrination you guys get in lieu of an education.


You're right, I should have gone to the Rush Limbaugh school of free enterprise and capatilism w/o any regulation school of freedom.. & unlimited Kool-Aid. like you apparently did.



> The right to work laws say if I hire someone, that membership in a trade union is their choice and should they choose to not join the union, that I have to pay them the same pay and benefits as if they were a union member, only they don't have to pay dues.


Which of course effectively snuffs out the union and it's ability to fight against anything because nobody is paying the dues to support it.



> The right to work laws are good laws put in to place to create checks and balances to protect workers from the union county club mentality of only picking the "right" people to join. Giving the union the power to decide who gets to work and does not get to work is too much power and we all know what any group with too much power ends up doing with it. People do need protection from that too ya know...


And w/o a union, nobody gets to pick and choose who gets to work and who doesn't?

Let me ask you something, where are all the aged RTW state electrician pensioners retiring to these days?

Oh yea. There aren't any. 
So much for your theory... :jester:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Wow! Smokes are $7.00 a pack in Pa. I can get Heroin for $5.00


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're right, I should have gone to the Rush Limbaugh school of free enterprise and capatilism w/o any regulation school of freedom.. & unlimited Kool-Aid.


Hey didn't all those guys on Wall Street go to that same school :jester:

Without some outside force to keep them in check, companies would, in their greed for a dollar today at the expense of tomorrow, would just churn out guys several times faster than the market requires, flooding it with far too much skilled labor and screw the whole industry over...

... aw crap :wallbash:

I think Wall Street, and the US banking system already showed what unbridled greed with nothing to keep it in check can do to an industry.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Mike_586 said:


> I think Wall Street, and the US banking system already showed what unbridled greed with nothing to keep it in check can do to an industry.


The bad thing about that is, is that the Federal Reserve is no more "federal" than Federal Express (FedEx). It's a private entity that controls our country's finances.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> The bad thing about that is, is that the Federal Reserve is no more "federal" than Federal Express (FedEx). It's a private entity that controls our country's finances.


 I believe that they control more than our country's finances.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're right, I should have gone to the Rush Limbaugh school of free enterprise and capatilism w/o any regulation school of freedom.. & unlimited Kool-Aid. like you apparently did.


This type of comment barley dignifies a response and does more to emphasize the level and quality of your indoctrination. 



> Which of course effectively snuffs out the union and it's ability to fight against anything because nobody is paying the dues to support it.


 IBEW has enough cash to spend millions on lobbing, paying its top employees and their families 6 figures a year with BETTER benefits than the members get, condos in Aruba, and Hawaii. I don’t see how the current 22 “right to work” states have even put a dent in IBEW’s revenue stream. You are going to need more than rhetoric and spin to even get close to making a credible point. 



> And w/o a union, nobody gets to pick and choose who gets to work and who doesn't?


That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. 



> Let me ask you something, where are all the aged RTW state electrician pensioners retiring to these days?...


I can’t believe I have to actually spell this out of you, you lack of command of the facts is astounding. A right to work employee in entitled to the COMPLETE benefit from collective bargaining without paying union dues, which includes pension/retirement. If in the event as you stipulated with snide smileys there are right to work employees not receiving these benefits, it is because it’s the UNION that is denying them, because they are 100% entitled to them.



Mike_586 said:


> Without some outside force to keep them in check, companies would, in their greed for a dollar today at the expense of tomorrow, would just churn out guys several times faster than the market requires, flooding it with far too much skilled labor and screw the whole industry over...


I tend to agree, any group that gets to big needs something to keep them in check. You do understand IBEW falls in this same category right? 

BTW limiting the amount of skilled labor, while trying to get a monopoly on said labor is collusion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion] which is a great example of why we need checks and balances.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> This type of comment barley dignifies a response and does more to emphasize the level and quality of your indoctrination.


You should have as good a command on logic and common sense as you do on the written word. But just spewing sharp-sounding vitriol isn't enough to convince anyone other than the causal passer-by that your words have an ounce of knowledge or credibility.



> IBEW has enough cash to spend millions on lobbing, paying its top employees and their families 6 figures a year with BETTER benefits than the members get, condos in Aruba, and Hawaii.


Think any of that income comes from "open shops" in "right (and I use that tern in it's opposing sense, actually meaning absolutely NO right) to work" states?

BTW... I have 4 houses too... maybe not in Aruba. I find it funny how these shop owners claim the sky's the limit because they take all the risk, and those who work for a regular paycheck don't have chit to say... but for some reason the head of an international organization is somehow persona non grata because he isn't living on skid row... 



> I don’t see how the current 22 “right to work” states have even put a dent in IBEW’s revenue stream.


True enough... there's enough coming from the 28 NORMAL states where tradesmen and craftsmen and skilled workers aren't treated like ****, because the owners and contractors operating withing those imbreedingrounds couldn't operate a sucessful business anywhere "normal" to save their lives. People like you NEED every advantage possible otherwise you'd know what a colossal failure you really are.

Face it, you'll never be a Petrocelli or a Adco. Look them up - they pay more tax than you EARN. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if I paid more tax than you earn.



> You are going to need more than rhetoric and spin to even get close to making a credible point.


Wake me up whan one of you scabs makes a credible point. In the meantime, all I see is is a bunch of backwards hillybillies living in trailers. 

I'd probably get a little more backup here if any of your employees could afford a computer and internet access, but since they're more worried about where the next meal is coming from, I'll have to settle for debating with a POS like you.



> I can’t believe I have to actually spell this out of you, you lack of command of the facts is astounding. A right to work employee in entitled to the COMPLETE benefit from collective bargaining without paying union dues, which includes pension/retirement. If in the event as you stipulated with snide smileys there are right to work employees not receiving these benefits, it is because it’s the UNION that is denying them, because they are 100% entitled to them.


Nice speech there skippy, but like a poor marksman you completely missed the target. A RTW state employee IS entitled to everything his/her dues paying union counterpart is. If it was a union shop... The POINT is in a RTW enviroment there rarely IS any union representation. Mainly because you ass backwards imbred hicks think "saving" a few bucks on union dues somehow puts you ahead... just like you're convinced "right to work" is actually a right, or gets an employee something. 

So why don't you tell us, if you're working in a Right To Work state, exactly what are your rights to work???

... I'll be waiting.




> I tend to agree, any group that gets to big needs something to keep them in check. You do understand IBEW falls in this same category right?


Really? I would say that with ONLY about 12-14% of the ENTIRE USA working union, that it is the nonunion electrical sector "group" that needs "checking".... no?



> BTW limiting the amount of skilled labor, while trying to get a monopoly on said labor is collusion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion] which is a great example of why we need checks and balances.


*In the study of **economics** and market **competition**, collusion takes place within an **industry** when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit.*

Did you get that Skippy? "when RIVAL COMPANIES COOPERATE"

I can only hope you make a better electrician than a lawyer. This simple, clear definition of collusion can't be misinterpreted by even the most simple of simpletons, and yet you did. 

Hey, I'll ckalk it up to your wornderful top-of-the-charts world-famous Texas public school system. (Also a product of exactly your kind of mentality...)


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

lawnguy, are you from new york or boston ?


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

*Wake me up whan one of you scabs makes a credible point. In the meantime, all I see is is a bunch of backwards hillybillies living in trailers. 

I'd probably get a little more backup here if any of your employees could afford a computer and internet access, but since they're more worried about where the next meal is coming from, I'll have to settle for debating with a POS like you.
*

Paul. How is that new trailer working out for you? How ever did you get to a puter to post on this here forum?


Lawnguywhatever, How can you lump all us nonunion biblethumpers into a general classification of *******, trailer living, hillbillies, without enough computer skills to make a point, 

You don't know me, but you have the right to call me a scab, or rat!
Up until now, I always thought that the post you made, even though bias to a fault, were intelligent and well thought out.

I now find you to be an arrogant, cool-aide drinking, PPS.

I will go up against you tax for tax, I'm not scared.


PROUD TO BE A RAT WHEN FACED WITH STUPID PEOPLE!


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

hey jbfan, luv my new trailer !!! its a '68 model. few mor yrs and i be gettin a dubble wide!!!! :thumbsup:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Wow what a perfect example or exactly what is wrong with the union. Thanks. No need for a rebuttal, your radical rant speaks for itself. 

Is there an ignore feature on this forum?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

jbfan said:


> *Wake me up whan one of you scabs makes a credible point. In the meantime, all I see is is a bunch of backwards hillybillies living in trailers. *
> 
> *I'd probably get a little more backup here if any of your employees could afford a computer and internet access, but since they're more worried about where the next meal is coming from, I'll have to settle for debating with a POS like you.*
> 
> ...


JB, take 100 random EMPLOYEES of contractors in RTW states and put them up against 100 EMPLOYEES of contractors in non-RTW states. Of course you, Paul, and PhatElvis can afford computers... and aren't living in double-wides. 

Whenever the "discussion" of union vs. nonunion plays out, it invaribly comes down to a union worker and a nonunion contractor. Often, the discussion plays out and eventually some story or example of a silly, dumb, or bass-ackwards situation involving unions is used to "prove" your point. My experience has been that anyone who works for a living wants to be union, or at least wants comparable wages & benifits, whereas that is the exact opposite of what many contractors want for their employees.


And yet, all over these message boards I see a lot of contractors and mom & pops crying about how competitive it is and how they're losing their shirts and how they're losing bids to companies bidding 50% less than they are... 

Face it - what labor wants and what management wants are like oil & water. I SAY the "solution" is a reasonable wage and a reasonable set of working conditions and a reasonable benifits package that everyone can agree on. That's meeting the other party halfway. You on the other have say the solution is a contractor should have 100% of the power and say-so over everything. 

Now you tell me... honestly, which of the above situations sounds more like democracy, and which is more dictator / communist? 



> You don't know me, but you have the right to call me a scab, or rat!
> Up until now, I always thought that the post you made, even though bias to a fault, were intelligent and well thought out.
> 
> I now find you to be an arrogant, cool-aide drinking, PPS.
> ...


You will? A contractor will go against an employee tax for tax and isn't scared? Well aren't you sporting! How about we compare apples to apples? 



> PROUD TO BE A RAT WHEN FACED WITH STUPID PEOPLE!


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

RUSSIAN said:


> Well said slickvic277. That's a lot like it is here. Unfortunately there is a very large open shop here that cheats the prevailing wage constantly, and by doing so can bid with the big players then throw helpers and apprentices on the job and screw EVERYONE in this industry. I'll add another to that list of things labor unions have done for us, but this is more specific, Proper Training. And I don't mean schooling, I'm talking on the job training by a qaulified journeymen wireman. There are A LOT of people coming up through this trade not getting proper training, I was one of them and I worked for one of the "better" open shops.
> There are a lot of good open shops out there, but dont kid yourself into thinking that the IBEW has done nothing positive for you and your livelihood


True-The IBEW has helped everybody Union and Non Union-Safety- Working Conditions-Benefits- Wages.
If the IBEW disappeared what do you think would happen to all of the above-Wages would be cut in half or more- forget health benifits or retirement


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> If the IBEW disappeared what do you think would happen to all of the above-Wages would be cut in half or more- forget health benifits or retirement


Market conditions would then set the wage, just as they should.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Market conditions would then set the wage, just as they should.


And Obama would've have yet another industry that needed bailing out because company owners in their All American greed would've been churning out skilled workers several times faster than the market could sustain leading to its its inevitable collapse from plumeting wages and drasticly increased competiton.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Market conditions would then set the wage, just as they should.


I'd accept that, as long as the ENTIRE market was truely free. That would mean no outside influences permitted to alter the balance of capatilism unnaturally in favor of either side, so... no illegals, no immigration without equal reverse emigration, and no importing of goods under a trade deficit. No outsourcing without an equal amount of "insourcing."


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd accept that, as long as the ENTIRE market was truely free. That would mean no outside influences permitted to alter the balance of capatilism unnaturally in favor of either side, so... no illegals, no immigration without equal reverse emigration, and no importing of goods under a trade deficit. No outsourcing without an equal amount of "insourcing."


I think it's somewhat ironic that you want a truly free market, but go on to list enforced concessions that you'd like to have in place. Does not compute. :laughing:

Whatever happened to working hard and making your own keep?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Funny thing, Right to work is FREEDOM OF CHOICE, The Democrats have a long history about supporting freedom of choice. 

Right to work is basic to the freedoms of this country, and while many see this as anti-union this is still America, well at least for a few more years.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

This lawnguy is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with the union. It’s the old school indoctrination and radicalization that drives a wedge between contractors and labor, and its one of the reasons IBEW on a national level is losing market share.

Over the past 40 years, locally we have gone from 98% market share to 6% market share with those same outdated and outright wrong attitudes. What happened to being partners? Business is about people and getting people to do what you want so you can make money is called sales. Calling people scabs and rats, and spreading outright lies about them, has never really worked in getting people to do what you want. 

It’s really too bad, because if IBEW just did what they said they could do for the contractors, we would all be union contractors and be damn grateful too, but for some reason the name calling and vitriolic comments start flying when we start talking about real issues and systemic lack of performance that is plaguing our relationship. The radical response? Its always somehow the contractors fault, because not unlike God, the brothers and sisters at IBEW are “perfect”. 

In 1985 I had (12) big union competitors and no big non-union competitors. Today I have (4) big non-union competitors and (3) big union competitors. I used to sell my work as being union and therefore superior, until I had a client walk me through a job one of my non-union competitors did and the quality of work blew me away. Then the same client started telling me horror stories about old school union tactics on other jobs; I keep my mouth shut about being a union contractor to clients now. 

Things are changing, the market is changing, the competition is changing, but the union still thinks they are perfect and there is no need for change. Keep it up Lawnguy and soon enough you will have plenty of free time to mow lawns…unless you already do.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd accept that, as long as the ENTIRE market was truely free. That would mean no outside influences permitted to alter the balance of capatilism unnaturally in favor of either side, so... no illegals, no immigration without equal reverse emigration, and no importing of goods under a trade deficit. No outsourcing without an equal amount of "insourcing."


No contractors secretly getting together and setting low wages.

Its really funny all this negative talk about unions. Non union contractors have a union, they get together and promote things that are good for themand their wallets. Most organizations have association that promote their business. Too many contractors. To many joe plumbers out doing electrical work. too many 1 and 2 man shops out doing electrical work. This takes away from the legimiate shopes doing electrical work, whether they be open shop or not.
Guys it sorta like everybody can not be rich, everybody cannot be black-white-union-non union, and so on.
I would like to see all contractors make a decent return on their investments and pay their employees a good wage and benefits and everybody treat everybody with respect.
If this was always the case the open shops would not have anything to fear from the union about being organized.
Just an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

But PhatElvis, your one of the phatcats paying for your 12 vacations homes on the backs of us poor workers. 

Lawnguy is a lost cause, my _guess_ is all he has ever known is life in the NY area unions. I don't think you will ever convince a person brought up in the NY area unions that there is any other way.

He seems to think all of us merit shop workers are underpaid, under trained and overworked which is simply not true.

I have had opportunities to get 'in' and I am not interested, I man up and make my own way, if I feel I am being taken advantage of I speak up for myself and do not use extortion to get what I expect.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> This lawnguy is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with the union. It’s the old school indoctrination and radicalization that drives a wedge between contractors and labor, and its one of the reasons IBEW on a national level is losing market share.
> 
> Over the past 40 years, locally we have gone from 98% market share to 6% market share with those same outdated and outright wrong attitudes. What happened to being partners? Business is about people and getting people to do what you want so you can make money is called sales. Calling people scabs and rats, and spreading outright lies about them, has never really worked in getting people to do what you want.
> 
> ...


PhatGuy,
Please tell me what you think the IBEW needs to do to change and start getting more market share. This is an honest question, not trying to start abunch of crap. I would really **** to know your opinion.
I can say this, being retired, it is so nice not having to put up with the contractors, foreman, gf's and the people on the jobs.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

mdshunk said:


> i think it's somewhat ironic that you want a truly free market, but go on to list enforced concessions that you'd like to have in place. Does not compute. :laughing:
> 
> Whatever happened to working hard and making your own keep?


people work hard everyday-there is no such thing as a free market-that phrase is a complete lie.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

brian john said:


> Funny thing, Right to work is FREEDOM OF CHOICE, The Democrats have a long history about supporting freedom of choice.
> 
> Right to work is basic to the freedoms of this country, and while many see this as anti-union this is still America, well at least for a few more years.


I think that Oklahoma is among the newest states to become RTW. I was against it at first. Mostly because the Governor was painting it as another "get our state fixed quick" method, and I have seen several of those come and go and so far things are getting worse here, not better.

Anyway, here's how I see it. The unions are loosing their market share. Mostly because manufacturing is going to other countries. Trade unions seem to me to be the only dog left in the fight. (The UAW and others have lost there voice).

So, the trade unions are taking a stand. The main bullets in their gun are anti RTW and bringing in the Free Choice Act. It's a matter of survival to them. If they can oust RTW and gain FCA, then all their problems go away. However, the same politicians that help the union cause, are also helping to send jobs oversees, bring in "green" laws, and further restrict business. Liberalism has killed the auto industry, so let's just bail it out with fresh printed money, and mandate "greener" cars. It will never end. Doing the same old tired thing and calling it CHANGE won't fix anything.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> too many 1 and 2 man shops out doing electrical work. This takes away from the legimiate shopes doing electrical work, whether they be open shop or not.


This makes absolutely no sense. How am I taking work away from legitimate shops? I am a 1 man band, and I'm legit.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> people work hard everyday-there is no such thing as a free market-that phrase is a complete lie.


Working hard has nothing to do with a free market economy. LawnGuy is the one who seems to want a free market if the union was to go away. I desire something quite less... I'd simply like the market forces that exist to set the wages. I think it would be great if those market forces did not include union representation to artificially drive the wages above what the rest of the market would ordinarily dictate.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> This makes absolutely no sense. How am I taking work away from legitimate shops? I am a 1 man band, and I'm legit.


I caught that too. I think some fellas think that you need to be above a certain size, else you are not a legitimate shop. An illegitimate shop? A bastard shop? We could have fun with that. I am now officially "Bastard Electric". :laughing:


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> This makes absolutely no sense. How am I taking work away from legitimate shops? I am a 1 man band, and I'm legit.


 Sorry I talking about all the people who work for a contractor and do work on the side, wheher it be open shop or union. Not tryng to hurt your feelings.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Working hard has nothing to do with a free market economy. LawnGuy is the one who seems to want a free market if the union was to go away. I desire something quite less... I'd simply like the market forces that exist to set the wages. I think it would be great if those market forces did not include union representation to artificially drive the wages above what the rest of the market would ordinarily dictate.


MDSKUNK
I dont think you are concerned about anythink except paying employees as little as possible and putting as much money as possible in your pocket.
All these so called free market people seem to be contractors or business owners. You never hear a worker talking about free market.
Free markets is a lie, it is a term developed by business to justify their slave wages. Of course this does not apply to all businesses, but applies to way too many.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> MDSKUNK
> I dont think you are concerned about anythink except paying employees as little as possible and putting as much money as possible in your pocket.


YES! You are ten-thousand percent right. People call that "business". The ideal situation is to get the most talent for the least amount of money. I can't even get my head around why that could even remotely be wrong. 

You know what else? Nobody that works for me has a ball and chain. They all do so by choice, and they all substantially knew the wages and benefits before they were hired.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> I dont think you are concerned about anythink except paying employees as little as possible and putting as much money as possible in your pocket.


Ain't this the American Way? Sure I have other concerns, but as I run my business, I try to keep costs low and profits high.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Sorry I talking about all the people who work for a contractor and do work on the side, wheher it be open shop or union.


Then you should be asking Lawnguy about that because last I knew he wants the benefits of being in the union but also does side work.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> MDSKUNK
> I dont think you are concerned about anythink except paying employees as little as possible and putting as much money as possible in your pocket.



The day I think the company owner has lost interest in making money is the day I look for a new job.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

How long will a company stay is business if it fails to make a profit? I try to keep costs down and profit up. I want the company that I work for to make TONS of profit.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Minuteman said:


> How long will a company stay is business if it fails to make a profit? I try to keep costs down and profit up. I want the company that I work for to make TONS of profit.


 
And business owners keep people employed.



> PhatGuy,
> Please tell me what you think the IBEW needs to do to change and start getting more market share. This is an honest question, not trying to start a bunch of crap. I would really **** to know your opinion.


The local in this area works with the contractors and tries to keep a good relationship between the workers and owners.

They send out daily projects for bid.
They have a 3 strike policy for bad workers.
They work with us.

Basically I think they understand what a good relationship is and do not see the contractors as bad guys "the enemy", "the man".


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Working hard has nothing to do with a free market economy. LawnGuy is the one who seems to want a free market if the union was to go away. I desire something quite less... I'd simply like the market forces that exist to set the wages. I think it would be great if those market forces did not include union representation to artificially drive the wages above what the rest of the market would ordinarily dictate.


mdshunk- Correct me if I am wrong- when you were a member of the IBEW did you think the contractor was paying you too much money in wages and benefits. I suppose when you dropped out of the IBEW and started your own business you woke up one morning and said wow no way those stinking IBEW people deserve all that money. I'll pay my people as little as possible and I will have money everywhere. GEE THOSE PEOPLE DON'T DESERVE A HOUSE AND A DECENT CAR, WHO CARES IF THEIR BABY DIES FOR LACK OF MEDICAL CARE.
All of a sudden when you dropped out of the IBEW THE WAGES WERE INFLATED. Why do I believe that you did not feel that way when you were working as an IBEW Electrician.
It would be interesting if your employee or employees could read your posts and know who you were.
retired


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> mdshunk- Correct me if I am wrong- when you were a member of the IBEW did you think the contractor was paying you too much money in wages and benefits. I suppose when you dropped out of the IBEW and started your own business you woke up one morning and said wow no way those stinking IBEW people deserve all that money. I'll pay my people as little as possible and I will have money everywhere. GEE THOSE PEOPLE DON'T DESERVE A HOUSE AND A DECENT CAR, WHO CARES IF THEIR BABY DIES FOR LACK OF MEDICAL CARE.
> All of a sudden when you dropped out of the IBEW THE WAGES WERE INFLATED. Why do I believe that you did not feel that way when you were working as an IBEW Electrician.
> It would be interesting if your employee or employees could read your posts and know who you were.
> retired


Would it surprise you to learn that I have IBEW members on one of my jobs right now?

Anyhow, nobody "deserves" anything from me... house, car, whatever. This entitlement stuff makes me sick. Anyone who doesn't like it can go down the pike. My obligation is to me, much as an employee's obligation is to himself and his family. If it's so bad, and he sticks around anyhow, that makes him pretty dumb, doesn't it? I don't really hire dumb people.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

Would it surprise you that we have a IBEW member on one of our jobs as well? We have a project that we could not man, we ran adds and help is not available. A guy applied and I interviewed him, the assistant BA called me later (we know each other) and said that he could work for us as a Salt. He is a single dad and needs the work, and he gets to keep his insurance.

This project is winding down, and he may choose to return to the hall. He could stay if he likes, we are pretty busy.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Would it surprise you to learn that I have IBEW members on one of my jobs right now?
> 
> Anyhow, nobody "deserves" anything from me... house, car, whatever. This entitlement stuff makes me sick. Anyone who doesn't like it can go down the pike. My obligation is to me, much as an employee's obligation is to himself and his family. If it's so bad, and he sticks around anyhow, that makes him pretty dumb, doesn't it? I don't really hire dumb people.


lol-lol-you sure said a mouth full-amazing how people change words to reflect what they want people to think instead of how they are.
I am not suprised you have an IBEW member on your payroll. I would guess you were one of thoe people at one time. Of course its all about you. Its not unions that will destroy this country its people with opinions like you and ohers that wull destroy this country. Wages buy homes, cars, being able to go to the hospitaland other thing you believe you deserve.
Take Care- No need o answer,


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> lol-lol-you sure said a mouth full-amazing how people change words to reflect what they want people to think instead of how they are.
> I am not suprised you have an IBEW member on your payroll. I would guess you were one of thoe people at one time. Of course its all about you. Its not unions that will destroy this country its people with opinions like you and ohers that wull destroy this country. Wages buy homes, cars, being able to go to the hospitaland other thing you believe you deserve.
> Take Care- No need o answer,


Unless Marc is holding his employees at gunpoint I fully agree with him and I have never been an owner.

I would say the people that are ruining this country are those that feel they are entitled to far more then they make themselves worth.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Unless Marc is holding his employees at gunpoint I fully agree with him and I have never been an owner.
> 
> I would say the people that are ruining this country are those that feel they are entitled to far more then they make themselves worth.


 
Bob-How much do you think you are worth-lol-lol-i would say it is people like you who are ruining this country. Amazing how a person thinks so highly of oneself and so lowly of others. So again Bob please tell me how much you feel you make yourself worth.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

retired 7373 said:


> Bob-How much do you think you are worth-lol-lol-i would say it is people like you who are ruining this country.


Yeah, those of us who still feel they have to earn their pay and are not entitled to a certain level of pay are certainly a drag on the economy. :laughing:




> Amazing how a person thinks so highly of oneself and so lowly of others.


I do look down on those that feel they should get a certain level of pay just for showing up to work.



> So again Bob please tell me how much you feel you make yourself worth.


I don't really understand the question but at work I am nothing more then a commodity and I am only worth what the current market says I am worth.

If I don't feel I can make enough money as an electrician due to market conditions I should get off my ass and take my life in another direction. I would never think of extorting more money from my employer through threats and intimidation.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Convincing people they are undervalued, mistreated, and deserve more is not a hard sell. All you need to do is stroke their egos, foster and inflated sense of their value, group them with others in the same condition then show them a way to get what they want with as little effort as possible. Of course it’s even easier if you get them when they are young and start the indoctrination process early.

The hard part is walking it like you talk it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Convincing people they are undervalued, mistreated, and deserve more is not a hard sell. All you need to do is stroke their egos, foster and inflated sense of their value, group them with others in the same condition then show them a way to get what they want with as little effort as possible. Of course it’s even easier if you get them when they are young and start the indoctrination process early.
> 
> The hard part is walking it like you talk it.


You mean like the new program proposed mandatory preschool at 3 and up. get them away from their parents sooner in a tax payer sponsored program.

This is why liberals do so well, tell people it is not their fault they are not doing so well and promise them you will take from the successful to lift up those doing marginally. Instead of letting them know that this has never worked (show me a sucessful socialist country). The way up is to work hard, get educated. AND NOT EVERYONE is going to be sucessful there are born losers and that is NOT MY FAULT.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wake me up whan one of you scabs makes a credible point. In the meantime, all I see is is a bunch of backwards hillybillies living in trailers.
> 
> I'd probably get a little more backup here if any of your employees could afford a computer and internet access, but since they're more worried about where the next meal is coming from, I'll have to settle for debating with a POS like you.
> 
> ...


Your arguments might have a slight amount of credibility if you didn't resort to name calling and stereotyping. But resorting to personal attacks is the first sign you lost the argument. :thumbsup:

At any rate, the IBEW brass who pay you to promote the IBEW cause really need to reign you in.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

bob badger said:


> yeah, those of us who still feel they have to earn their pay and are not entitled to a certain level of pay are certainly a drag on the economy. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
how sweet


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Whatever happened to working hard and making your own keep?


That's what I keep asking contractors who want everyone else to do the work for them, for _their keep_, but I never seem to get a decent answer...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Funny thing, Right to work is FREEDOM OF CHOICE, The Democrats have a long history about supporting freedom of choice.
> 
> Right to work is basic to the freedoms of this country, and while many see this as anti-union this is still America, well at least for a few more years.


If 10 people want a union to represent them and 5 people want the "freedom" to be free of union involvement, how do you balance the rights to free choice between the 2?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> This lawnguy is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with the union. It’s the old school indoctrination and radicalization that drives a wedge between contractors and labor, and its one of the reasons IBEW on a national level is losing market share.


Not really. There are many reasons that unions are losing members and market share, but "not wanting to be in one" is not one of those reasons. You know this and I know this. What unions fight for is exactly what corporations are fighting against, and the corporations are winning plain and simple, and their employees and the entire country as a whole are ending up the big losers. 



> Over the past 40 years, locally we have gone from 98% market share to 6% market share with those same outdated and outright wrong attitudes. What happened to being partners? Business is about people and getting people to do what you want so you can make money is called sales. Calling people scabs and rats, and spreading outright lies about them, has never really worked in getting people to do what you want.


Outright lies? Example please?



> It’s really too bad, because if IBEW just did what they said they could do for the contractors, we would all be union contractors and be damn grateful too, but for some reason the name calling and vitriolic comments start flying when we start talking about real issues and systemic lack of performance that is plaguing our relationship. The radical response? Its always somehow the contractors fault, because not unlike God, the brothers and sisters at IBEW are “perfect”.


When push comes to shove... even IF all contractors were union, along comes Mr. Greedypockets who will DEMAND more production (called "cooperation"... BTW cooperation in a business sense NEVER means more income for labor) because it would put more money in his pocket while putting less money in mine. Just because he can. 



> In 1985 I had (12) big union competitors and no big non-union competitors. Today I have (4) big non-union competitors and (3) big union competitors. I used to sell my work as being union and therefore superior, until I had a client walk me through a job one of my non-union competitors did and the quality of work blew me away. Then the same client started telling me horror stories about old school union tactics on other jobs; I keep my mouth shut about being a union contractor to clients now.
> 
> Things are changing, the market is changing, the competition is changing, but the union still thinks they are perfect and there is no need for change. Keep it up Lawnguy and soon enough you will have plenty of free time to mow lawns…unless you already do.


I have 4 lawns to mow and I enjoy it very much. I got these lawns from the investment and rental income from the likes of employees like yours - that must rent because somehow in these great United States of America contractors don't think electricians should earn enough to own their own homes. 

Despite what you might think, I am not anti-business. I happen to be pro-labor. Unfortunately, for some people who think like you, anything that is not 100% pro business IS the definition of anti-business. 

We went through 8 years of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. and Regan ALL of whom PROMISED that if we support business 100% and don't tax them and don't regulate them, that all will be great because when business succeeds EVERYONE will succeed. Turns out all that happens when you support business unfettered all we get as American workers is screwed. Because GREED, unbridled unfettered unchecked greed is all we end up getting, and nothing trickles down except the ****e.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> PhatGuy,
> Please tell me what you think the IBEW needs to do to change and start getting more market share. This is an honest question, not trying to start abunch of crap. I would really **** to know your opinion.
> I can say this, being retired, it is so nice not having to put up with the contractors, foreman, gf's and the people on the jobs.


Are you *KIDDING ME?!?!?! *That's what I'm going to miss the *MOST!!!*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> YES! You are ten-thousand percent right. People call that "business". The ideal situation is to get the most talent for the least amount of money. I can't even get my head around why that could even remotely be wrong.
> 
> You know what else? Nobody that works for me has a ball and chain. They all do so by choice, and they all substantially knew the wages and benefits before they were hired.


No it is not a choice. Unless one would accept death by starvation as easily as a comfortable 3-bedroom home and raising a familt which costs money, nobody "chooses" to just work or not work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> And business owners keep people employed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Unless Marc is holding his employees at gunpoint I fully agree with him and I have never been an owner.
> 
> I would say the people that are ruining this country are those that feel they are entitled to far more then they make themselves worth.


I believe what's destroying this country is the attitude that out of a group of people with the job skills titled "electrician" that some are worth X, others worth Y and others worth Z, and that somehow ONE person whose income increases by undervaluing X, Y & Z is going to fairly choose the values.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Your arguments might have a slight amount of credibility if you didn't resort to name calling and stereotyping. But resorting to personal attacks is the first sign you lost the argument. :thumbsup:
> 
> At any rate, the IBEW brass who pay you to promote the IBEW cause really need to reign you in.


I don't get paid to promote the IBEW but if it's any consolation... I am at work right now... :thumbup: And NO... I don't have anything to do.


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## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No it is not a choice. Unless one would accept death by starvation as easily as a comfortable 3-bedroom home and raising a familt which costs money, nobody "chooses" to just work or not work.





"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind." (Aristotle) 
Wish I had one....I could use a job too.


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## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Convincing people they are undervalued, mistreated, and deserve more is not a hard sell. All you need to do is stroke their egos, foster and inflated sense of their value, group them with others in the same condition then show them a way to get what they want with as little effort as possible. _* Of course it’s even easier if you get them when they are young and start the indoctrination process early.*_
> 
> The hard part is walking it like you talk it.


*"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.*"
Nietzsche

Gotta luv these quotes:jester:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If 10 people want a union to represent them and 5 people want the "freedom" to be free of union involvement, how do you balance the rights to free choice between the 2?


The 10 can go to work at a union shop, no one is forcing them to stay at the open shop.


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## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Turns out all that happens when you support business unfettered all we get as American workers is screwed. Because GREED, unbridled unfettered unchecked greed is all we end up getting, and nothing trickles down except the ****e.



"Every time Germany became more powerful, the economy gained strength; always, however, when the economy became the sole purpose in the lives of our people and it suffocated our intellectual, spiritual and moral virtues, the state crumbled again, to take the economy down with itself shortly afterwards."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

luby104 said:


> Turns out all that happens when you support business unfettered all we get as American workers is screwed. Because GREED, unbridled unfettered unchecked greed is all we end up getting, and nothing trickles down except the ****e.


 And when you support socialism all you get is a lump of crap in the end, ask all those socialist/communist countries that have been struggling since WWII.

Capitalism has been working since cavemen first traded, socialism has been failing since Marx's days.

We do not have unfettered business the government screws it up everyday. Thank you Congress.


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## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

Ummm....

Actually that quote was posted by "Lawn Guy"

It was just my typeO.

Sorry.:wallbash:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Capitalism has been working since cavemen first traded, socialism has been failing since Marx's days.


Yet unions operate on a fundamentally socialistic principle...go figure. :laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yet unions operate on a fundamentally socialistic principle...go figure. :laughing:


 
True and the cream rises to the top, the better men make over scale in many cases and get extra benefits. Good to average workers and slackers make the same, one of the draw backs. Some locals are trying to weed out the slackers that are bench warmers.



luby104 said:


> Ummm....
> 
> Actually that quote was posted by "Lawn Guy"


My apologizes.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

luby104 said:


> *"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.*"
> Nietzsche
> 
> Gotta luv these quotes:jester:


Yes, but you fail to appreciate that Nietzsche was just another monkey.

http://www.slick.com/dmd/dancemonkeysdance.htm


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> The 10 can go to work at a union shop, no one is forcing them to stay at the open shop.


There's no such thing as a union shop. Unions represent workers.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> And when you support socialism all you get is a lump of crap in the end, ask all those socialist/communist countries that have been struggling since WWII.
> 
> Capitalism has been working since cavemen first traded, socialism has been failing since Marx's days.
> 
> We do not have unfettered business the government screws it up everyday. Thank you Congress.


Capitalism hasn't been working since cavemen 1st traded. Unionism is democracy, nonunionism is a dictatorship, and far closer to socialism and communism, which always has a self-appointed dictator at the helm.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Capitalism hasn't been working since cavemen 1st traded. Unionism is democracy, nonunionism is a dictatorship, and far closer to socialism and communism, which always has a self-appointed dictator at the helm.


you really are getting a warped sense of reality...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There's no such thing as a union shop. Unions represent workers.


In this discussion unless I missed something we are discussing in terms I think everyone but you can understand there are basically union shops (all workers are members of the IBEW) and open shops (workers are not under a collective bargaining agreement) If not I say to all those shops that are NOT A UNION shop, but have union employees by your definition hire open shop men and see how soon you are crying the blues.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Capitalism hasn't been working since cavemen 1st traded. Unionism is democracy, nonunionism is a dictatorship, and far closer to socialism and communism, which always has a self-appointed dictator at the helm.


Define "democracy". I think that I know what it means, not too sure that you do.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Yet unions operate on a fundamentally socialistic principle...go figure. :laughing:


 
Go right ahead and move to Capitalist Mexico. No unions there.

Hmmm no permits down there either. What a great place to escape socialism!!!


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

“Open Shop” is more or less a union propaganda term designed to make you think something that is not true. An open shop is still a union shop only the union can not prevent the shop owner from hiring anyone he wants as long as he pays and treats them in accordance with the collective bargaining agreement. I am guilty of using this term as well. A more accurate way to refer to a non-union shop would be a merit shop. 

Union Shop (Closed Shop) - Shop were all labor is represented by collective bargaining and all employees must be a member in good standing of the trade union to be employed there.

Union Shop (Open Shop) - Shop were all labor is represented by collective bargaining but being a member in the trade union is not a prerequisite to employment, ie RTW states. 

Merrit Shop - Shop were all labor is NOT represented by collective bargaining. Each employee negotiates their own deal with the shop owner.


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## luby104 (Mar 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Go right ahead and move to Capitalist Mexico. No unions there.
> 
> Hmmm no permits down there either. What a great place to escape socialism!!!


No Mexicans there either.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Capitalism hasn't been working since cavemen 1st traded. Unionism is democracy, nonunionism is a dictatorship, and far closer to socialism and communism, which always has a self-appointed dictator at the helm.


Capitalism has been working since cavemen if not want do you call it? Surely not your brand of all control. 

Open shop is a free form you do not like it take a hike and is so far from socialism to make me wonder what you drink before you sign in. Union DICTATES


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Go right ahead and move to Capitalist Mexico. No unions there.
> 
> Hmmm no permits down there either. What a great place to escape socialism!!!


I have no idea what Mexico has to do with this discussion, other than muddying the waters. 

Anyway, you can use any verbal gymnastics that you want, buy pay parity regardless of ability is socialistic to the core.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Anyway, you can use any verbal gymnastics that you want, buy pay parity regardless of ability is socialistic to the core.


 
And breeds discontent, inefficiency, poor products, and lazy workers there is a major portion of the world just east of the Rhine to prove this.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

luby104 said:


> No Mexicans there either.:laughing:


Now that's funny.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Capitalism has been working since cavemen if not want do you call it? Surely not your brand of all control.
> 
> Open shop is a free form you do not like it take a hike and is so far from socialism to make me wonder what you drink before you sign in. Union DICTATES


Union set standards that we will not bend on. That's my kinda "dictates." 



Peter D said:


> I have no idea what Mexico has to do with this discussion, other than muddying the waters.


It has everything to do with it. Mexico is what the US is not-so-slowly becoming. 1/10th of 1% hold all the wealth and control the government, while 99 & 99/100ths can take it or leave it. Wow... let freedom ring!



> Anyway, you can use any verbal gymnastics that you want, buy pay parity regardless of ability is socialistic to the core.


Pay parity by job decsription. A journeyman is a journeyman. Some are better at some things than others, some posess skills very few others have, but most posess all of the skills you could ever want or find a use for. 

ONLY in your world would you classify a bunch of people "mechanics" and pay each and every one of them something different. And the reality is, the differering rates of pay can have as much to do with an individual's ability to negotiate on their own behalf as it does with their own personal skillset. Not to mention the financial status of the shop at the time of hire... or the degree of manpower desperation at hiring time. 

I can tell by some of the hands we've organized that the process you employ causes you to end up with some real shady characters. Indeed, many of those vocally against unions have been thrown out of one due to imcompetance or what we like to call "not suitable for the electrical industry" or "requires constant supervision" or "recommend retraining begining from year ___" (Usually it's 2.) 

Now aside from all that... If you took the payrolls of any nonunion shop and compared them with the payrolls from equally sized (employee #'s-wise) union shops, you will find that the MAJORITY or nonunion shops employ very few "top paid" ""Mechanics"" while employing many, many MANY so-called "Jr. Mechanics" or "intermediates" and in fact, you see it posted all over these message boards how you guys are SOOOOO good you were running your own jobs when you were helpers. Well guess what kids - you were being USED by your employers if you were not making top pay but your boss was leaving you to run work or make decisions on your own, read prints, etc...

The devil is in the details, and in this arena it's not just about what you pay a person, but how you classify them, or mis-classify them as it were.

I will be the FIRST to admit, unions do have their drawbacks. NO system is perfect, nothing is infalliable or flawless. But given the choice, as an employee, I know what works best for me. Naturally, most employers are going to be against unions. Who wouldn't want to have the ability to call every shot and make every decision final without worrying about violating a contract?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> pay parity regardless of ability is socialistic to the core.


Who cares if Turtle sparky over there is making JW scale? You care, because you're jealous that he's making more than you hourly. Honest to god though, he's only making that a few months a year. Those guys who are slow are typically old-timers in their fiftys and sixtys, and spend so much time at the hall they are semi-retired.

A great part of this job is physical manual labor. Without the hall behind you when you hit that age, I'd like to meet an employer willing to keep you on full time at full scale, because that is one generous mofo. 

While we're on the topic of socialism, lets get rid of those socialist fire stations and socialist public education, down with those red bastards! Those socialist roads and highways are getting to me too!


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I employ a number of older and slower electricians, they tend to make great layout men and paired with a good apprentice still produce well.

I guess there's another myth debunked.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Who cares if Turtle sparky over there is making JW scale? You care, because you're jealous that he's making more than you hourly. Honest to god though, he's only making that a few months a year. Those guys who are slow are typically old-timers in their fiftys and sixtys, and spend so much time at the hall they are semi-retired.
> 
> A great part of this job is physical manual labor. Without the hall behind you when you hit that age, I'd like to meet an employer willing to keep you on full time at full scale, because that is one generous mofo.
> 
> While we're on the topic of socialism, lets get rid of those socialist fire stations and socialist public education, down with those red bastards! Those socialist roads and highways are getting to me too!


Well as you know, business owners actually love and embrace socialism - just ask any who've bid on public works...:thumbup: And the ones who demanded contractor licensing under the false pretense that it would protect the public. (It was actually to limit competition.) Then while they carry a license to keep competition out, they send unlicensed help and do not even check the work, yet show me one who doens't proudly tout "LICENSED" on the advertizing as if it meant anything real. 

And while many will decry unionism, show me a business owner or contractor who isn't a member of his own business union... seems it's OK to be socialistic when it puts money in your pocket, but not when it empowers those who actually did the work that put it there...

... long pause
... breathe deep
... take a sip of (coffee, coke, beer, whatever you're drinking)
...smoke 'em if you got em...


And with this post, gentlemen, may I say the "debate" has been lively and enlightening. I hope it was as good for you as it was for me, however; with this it is clear you know my position, as I clearly know yours. I am going to refrain from further posts on the matter. I'm spending too much time here and I have a house to renovate, a truck to renovate, a garden to plant, a fence to mend, and a brand new bike to accessorize starting with the pipes, it'll hit 80 this weekend and I need a haircut and a shave.

*Anyone into Harleys? :thumbup:*


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

A fanatic is someone who cant change their minds and wont change the subject.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well as you know, business owners actually love and embrace socialism - just ask any who've bid on public works...:thumbup:


NOT ME



> And the ones who demanded contractor licensing under the false pretense that it would protect the public. (It was actually to limit competition.) Then while they carry a license to keep competition out, they send unlicensed help and do not even check the work, yet show me one who doens't proudly tout "LICENSED" on the advertizing as if it meant anything real.


Not me



> And while many will decry unionism, show me a business owner or contractor who isn't a member of his own business union... seems it's OK to be socialistic when it puts money in your pocket, but not when it empowers those who actually did the work that put it there...
> 
> 
> > Not me
> ...


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