# water fault ?



## BuzzKill

neutral current on the water pipes; look for improper bonding; is there a sub panel too? look for parallel N paths


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## wendon

City water or private well system?


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## frenchelectrican

mhuntelec said:


> Hi can any one help with a fault i came across today, I was called to a shower that was giving electric shocks to the customer, they said they were getting shocks from the metal hose that feeds the sower head from the shower this hose was connected to plastic both ends ( mira sport shower) was unusual so tried it sure enough if you stand in the plastic shower tray and touch the isolated metal hole you get a shock, i tested between the water and the earth terminal on the shower and got 180 volts ish ? between live and the water 40 volts ish ? I have tested the circuit and all clear the RCd was faulty so replaced but still the same earth loop is 0.20 on the shower terminal what am i missing i have disconnected the shower for now there is continuity on the water bonding and it is continuose in the bathroom also ? HELP !


This poster is in UK due couple words catch moi real quick.

Was this shower head is new or it was been in used for a while ?

If latter you will have to replace the heating element.

Belive me they are pain in butt to find the pinhole in the element but did you ran PAT first to make sure it do pass the PAT test methold ?

What what the RCD rating you have ? it should be the same as the old one is.

Merci,
Marc


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## sparkie2010

mhuntelec said:


> Hi can any one help with a fault i came across today, I was called to a shower that was giving electric shocks to the customer, they said they were getting shocks from the metal hose that feeds the sower head from the shower this hose was connected to plastic both ends ( mira sport shower) was unusual so tried it sure enough if you stand in the plastic shower tray and touch the isolated metal hole you get a shock, i tested between the water and the earth terminal on the shower and got 180 volts ish ? between live and the water 40 volts ish ? I have tested the circuit and all clear the RCd was faulty so replaced but still the same earth loop is 0.20 on the shower terminal what am i missing i have disconnected the shower for now there is continuity on the water bonding and it is continuose in the bathroom also ? HELP !


This same thing happened in Afghanistan with KBR. Look up the story pretty interesting.

You must be double bonded. If you cant locate it in a sub-panel, disconnect the ground clamp from the copper water pipe and retest. 

Did you say 180v, that's a large amount of unbalance circuit. Second step would be turning off the 120v breakers one by one and test voltage to isolate leg. 

Good luck


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## mhuntelec

wendon said:


> City water or private well system?


 city water


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## mhuntelec

frenchelectrican said:


> This poster is in UK due couple words catch moi real quick.
> 
> Was this shower head is new or it was been in used for a while ?
> 
> If latter you will have to replace the heating element.
> 
> Belive me they are pain in butt to find the pinhole in the element but did you ran PAT first to make sure it do pass the PAT test methold ?
> 
> What what the RCD rating you have ? it should be the same as the old one is.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


The RCd is 30ma and so is new one and is working correctly i thought the same may be element breaking down but only 20ma not enought to take out RCD this is possible but never come across it before so wanted feed back


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## mhuntelec

sparkie2010 said:


> This same thing happened in Afghanistan with KBR. Look up the story pretty interesting.
> 
> You must be double bonded. If you cant locate it in a sub-panel, disconnect the ground clamp from the copper water pipe and retest.
> 
> Did you say 180v, that's a large amount of unbalance circuit. Second step would be turning off the 120v breakers one by one and test voltage to isolate leg.
> 
> Good luck


 Hi did disconnect power to circuits one by one and the fault did go when shower was turned off so does surges 20ma ish to earth on heating element of shower but normally they just work or dont never come across one like this before


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## chicken steve

so you verified the vessel that holds the hot h20 is leaking to ground M Hunt ? ~CS~


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## sparkie2010

Is the an Ebonics for Electrician Talk?


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## LARMGUY

mhuntelec said:


> Hi can any one help with a fault i came across today, I was called to a shower that was giving electric shocks to the customer, they said they were getting shocks from the metal hose that feeds the sower head from the shower this hose was connected to plastic both ends ( mira sport shower) was unusual so tried it sure enough if you stand in the plastic shower tray and touch the isolated metal hole you get a shock, i tested between the water and the earth terminal on the shower and got 180 volts ish ? between live and the water 40 volts ish ? I have tested the circuit and all clear the RCd was faulty so replaced but still the same earth loop is 0.20 on the shower terminal what am i missing i have disconnected the shower for now there is continuity on the water bonding and it is continuose in the bathroom also ? HELP !


Was shockdoc there before you?


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## ampman

sparkie2010 said:


> This same thing happened in Afghanistan with KBR. Look up the story pretty interesting.
> 
> You must be double bonded. If you cant locate it in a sub-panel, disconnect the ground clamp from the copper water pipe and retest.
> 
> Did you say 180v, that's a large amount of unbalance circuit. Second step would be turning off the 120v breakers one by one and test voltage to isolate leg.
> 
> Good luck


i don't think the uk has 120 volt power all 220


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## frenchelectrican

ampman said:


> i don't think the uk has 120 volt power all 220


They don't have any 120 volts for resdentail useage the normal voltage will be 240 volt line to netural but if you get triphase then it will be 400-415 volts range.

But there are some commeral jobsite that they will required 120 volts for the tools for safety reason. ( on UK side ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## WarrenG

mhuntelec said:


> Hi can any one help with a fault i came across today, I was called to a shower that was giving electric shocks to the customer, they said they were getting shocks from the metal hose that feeds the sower head from the shower this hose was connected to plastic both ends ( mira sport shower) was unusual so tried it sure enough if you stand in the plastic shower tray and touch the isolated metal hole you get a shock, i tested between the water and the earth terminal on the shower and got 180 volts ish ? between live and the water 40 volts ish ? I have tested the circuit and all clear the RCd was faulty so replaced but still the same earth loop is 0.20 on the shower terminal what am i missing i have disconnected the shower for now there is continuity on the water bonding and it is continuose in the bathroom also ? HELP !


You really need to trace this fault. 

I would suggest from what you are saying that there isn't a fault with the shower, more likely the supply to the shower from the CU - i.e. a hidden part melted cable that is now introducing a path into the bathroom metal work. You obviously have a connection somewhere.

Test the metal work again without the shower circuit energised to narrow down the search.

I would agree with Buzzkil and say that its likely to be a neutral.

As for the RCD, remember that it is designed to pick up an imbalance between L&N (leakage) and not an over current or short circuit. Are you sure that faulty RCD wasn't just doing its job?

Any faulty live circuit in the property could be putting juice into the metal work, I'd recommend further testing, seperation of circuits to pin point the fault.

Good luck!


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## frank

I would think also that the fault does not lie with the shower. What you have is a fault current from some other scource meeting a high value impedance. This problem will also be present in ALL metalwork within the dwelling with voltage readings of different values. The fault current is not high enough to trip the 3omA rcd but received voltage high enough to feel to the touch. Check insulation resistances between cores to all circuits from distribution unit.ALSO. If the system is a TNC (pme) and the supply company neutral is open circuit then you will have this problem also since supply neutrals will be fed through //ll earths. If over you head then call upon another electrician to help. Don't walk away from this one

Frank


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## bennysecond

LOL, I didn't know you can install 7,5kW (even 10.8kW) heater inside your shower. Is it 1 phase? Sounds for me like a suicidal idea. Especially with "cowboy builders" running wild in UK. I would never ever do that in my home, doesn't matter is approved. Just could not sleep imaging somebody from my family in that shower. 

I think Frank is right about the problem. That kind of load can easily trip 30mA, 
(is there any main differential safety? f.e. 300 mA). Beside balance and bonding problems. good luck


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## frenchelectrican

bennysecond said:


> LOL, I didn't know you can install 7,5kW (even 10.8kW) heater inside your shower. Is it 1 phase? Sounds for me like a suicidal idea. Especially with "cowboy builders" running wild in UK. I would never ever do that in my home, doesn't matter is approved. Just could not sleep imaging somebody from my family in that shower.
> 
> I think Frank is right about the problem. That kind of load can easily trip 30mA,
> (is there any main differential safety? f.e. 300 mA). Beside balance and bonding problems. good luck


Yeah there is one and useally set for 100 ma setting but there are other size avaibale as the situation warrants for it.

Merci,
Marc


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## great68

I agree with the others as this being a fault from another circuit. Switch off all the other circuits and test for that 180V again, then turn on each circuit till you locate it. How did you get the 0.20 Zs, I would disconnect at the board and link E to L to get a R1 +R2 .

For anyones info, 30mA RCD are the normal here & would be asked for by the manufacturer, other sizes are availible. Its quite normal to see 11KW showers in domestic use. I dont think 2 or 3 phase showers are availible.


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## bennysecond

Just curious,


"For anyones info, 30mA RCD are the normal here & would be asked for by the manufacturer, other sizes are availible. Its quite normal to see 11KW showers in domestic use. I dont think 2 or 3 phase showers are availible."

Seems like a big load on 1 phase (10.8 kW). 
I assumed that would be mainly installed in older homes, where average service is 60 A. Then wire section has to be quite big (f.e. 8-10 sq. mm). Balancing that kind of load would be also a task.


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## great68

bennysecond said:


> Just curious,
> 
> 
> "For anyones info, 30mA RCD are the normal here & would be asked for by the manufacturer, other sizes are availible. Its quite normal to see 11KW showers in domestic use. I dont think 2 or 3 phase showers are availible."
> 
> Seems like a big load on 1 phase (10.8 kW).
> I assumed that would be mainly installed in older homes, where average service is 60 A. Then wire section has to be quite big (f.e. 8-10 sq. mm). Balancing that kind of load would be also a task.


 
Correct, but quite normal. I wire showers & cooker supplies in 10mm always as we have to downrate if in insulation. Remember our S Phase voltage is double yours. For the last 30 odd years most new housing estates had no gas & were all electric. More recently gas is being installed. I have had plumbers ask me to connect 14kw showers to existing house 60A supplies. Generally 80-100A is fitted on new services. 

Here is a link to a popular diy site for 10.5kw showers http://www.screwfix.com/p/triton-enrich-electric-shower-10-5kw/85818


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## frenchelectrican

great68 said:


> Correct, but quite normal. I wire showers & cooker supplies in 10mm always as we have to downrate if in insulation. Remember our S Phase voltage is double yours. For the last 30 odd years most new housing estates had no gas & were all electric. More recently gas is being installed. I have had plumbers ask me to connect 14kw showers to existing house 60A supplies. Generally 80-100A is fitted on new services.
> 
> Here is a link to a popular diy site for 10.5kw showers http://www.screwfix.com/p/triton-enrich-electric-shower-10-5kw/85818


We have simauir situation over here in France as well but with larger shower heads I manged to get couple of them in triphase hooked up ( with manatory RCD of course ) But I am not super crazy with it. Either they work fine and not worth a stink.

Merci,
Marc


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## j johnson

main falt my bee at pole or bilding next door.


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## boora2

Check the noodle for high impedance,o/c etc.Make sure the neutral is bonded to the main earth connection at the breaker panel.If city water is used with copper,not pex,jump the meter with 2 earth clips & some 10-16mm cable.Other things to check,leaky element to ground,but I'd check the neutral connections first,meter tails, etc,be careful if a smart meter is fitted and you pull it,depending on the POCO,you could have 10 cops,the SAS,AP gunships circling within 10 minutes,along with Paramedics,Fire Brigade,etc.


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## wendon

boora2 said:


> Check the noodle for high impedance,o/c etc.Make sure the neutral is bonded to the main earth connection at the breaker panel.If city water is used with copper,not pex,jump the meter with 2 earth clips & some 10-16mm cable.Other things to check,leaky element to ground,but I'd check the neutral connections first,meter tails, etc,be careful if a smart meter is fitted and you pull it,depending on the POCO,you could have 10 cops,the SAS,AP gunships circling within 10 minutes,along with Paramedics,Fire Brigade,etc.


This thread is prehistoric!!!


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