# Is it worth it to be a Union Electrician?



## Porsche650

I am new to the forum and was interested in knowing about Union Electricans. A little back round i decided to stop with college due to my lack of enthusiasm for my major(Mechanical Engineer). Also after 2 schools made mistakes and bad teachers i am at the point of no return. I was interested in the Union to be an Electrician i have been a mechanic since i was 16 and have a vast knowledge of how electrical components work yet understandable that commerical and housing is a different ball park. At this time would it be worth going into the Union? What is there wages? etc Any opinions on the issue?


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## brian john

Porsche650 said:


> I am new to the forum and was interested in knowing about Union Electricans. A little back round i decided to stop with college due to my lack of enthusiasm for my major(Mechanical Engineer). Also after 2 schools made mistakes and bad teachers i am at the point of no return. I was interested in the Union to be an Electrician i have been a mechanic since i was 16 and have a vast knowledge of how electrical components work yet understandable that commerical and housing is a different ball park. At this time would it be worth going into the Union? What is there wages? etc Any opinions on the issue?


 
1. It is never too late for a college education, I am attending part time at age 56.

2. If you are going to be in the trade (depending on where you live) IMO union is the way to go. Generally higher wages and better benefits. IF THERE IS REGULAR WORK.


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## Porsche650

I agree i am sure more concerned about 401K stability and future plans at least its somewhat a secure job once in. I am located in New York so i would persume i would be directed to Local 3. Could you elaborate on IMO union?


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## Toronto Sparky

Non-Union is good as long as you make sure to never get hurt or sick.
Wages work out to about the same being the lack of work at times in most union shops.


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## brian john

Toronto Sparky said:


> Non-Union is good as long as you make sure to never get hurt or sick.


And this depends on the shop and how you PROTECT yourself



> Wages work out to about the same being the lack of work at times in most union shops.


 
And the type of work you do construction is more likely to be out of work then a service man. BUT good men are generally employed full time (sometimes referred to as a brown noser in the union) And as noted this is area dependent and economy dependent.


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## Celtic

brian john said:


> 2. IMO union is the way to go.
> 
> 
> Porsche650 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on IMO union?
Click to expand...

Porsche... "IMO" is "internet speak" for In My Opinion...aka:
In my opinion, union is the way to go. ​ 


Toronto Sparky said:


> Non-Union is good as long as you make sure to never get hurt or sick.


How is that "good"?



Toronto Sparky said:


> Wages work out to about the same being the lack of work at times in most union shops.


???:001_huh:
Does your wage calculations also include the Union retirement package including, but not limited to, annuity, NEBF, pension, health care, etc?


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## Porsche650

Also something that always pops in my head if union is So good then why don't more pp do it, The pay seems to be higher then most pp that graduate college in mid end majors? Not to mention the health insurance which is a big plus for me since i been in the hospital 2 times in the last year. I mean there seems to be so much talk bout good but whats the bad to joining the union? At least this gives u the risks and benefits in which can be matched up to another path they a person may take. Is anyone in the New York Union for Electricians by curiosity?


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## Toronto Sparky

The whole union package here is about 100K/yr If you work steady.
Non-union is 47K (more if they provide benefits)
In a non-union shop of 20+ guys , Myself and two others had limited benefits. 
I, having been a service guy for years, didn't get bounced around but at the same time did not get a full week in all that often.
I have worked both union and non-union for extended periods.
I my mind union is the way to go.
Just plan for the slow periods.


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## Mike_586

brian john said:


> 1. It is never too late for a college education, I am attending part time at age 56.
> 
> 2. If you are going to be in the trade (depending on where you live) IMO union is the way to go. Generally higher wages and better benefits. IF THERE IS REGULAR WORK.



#2 is the key to weather being in the union is good or not. In some regions/markets, if you're a worker then you'd have to be nuts not to want to be in the union, on the flip side there are some places where the union presence is so weak that you'd be nuts to want to be in it.

I just got laid off yesterday, was offered work at a solar plant (I turned it down due to it being mindless production work) and got another call today for a job I took working in a power generation plant.

Since I joined the union a few years ago, with one exception, the longest I've been out of work was 4 days between jobs and it never had to be more than that but I'm usually picky about what jobs I want to take.

I've done the math between what I was making union vs. non union and considering that I make more doing 36hrs a week vs. 40, the pay difference along with pension and benefits. I could be out of work 2 months a year and still be ahead in take home pay alone EDIT(working 4 hours a week less), much longer when pension and benefits are factored into the equation and in the last 5 years I've averaged maybe several days a year between jobs.

And of course there are the other benefits of being in the union i.e. the educational opportunities that are made available to us.

Having spent half my career in the trade on both sides of the fence, there's just no comparison between the two around here. Union wins hands down.

In other places it can be a completely different story and I'm just happy to live in a place where I can make a good buck and be as busy as I want to be


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## major pain

what's wrong with working in a solar plant?

Isn't that the future solar power? or does it consist of something totally different


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## Celtic

Porsche650 said:


> Also something that always pops in my head if union is So good then why don't more pp do it,


Simply because not every contractor wants to be union - for whatever reason.
As not every contractor is union - not every job is union.
As every job is not union - there is no demand for a 100% union workforce.
W/O 100% demand for union workforce, there is no need for everyone to be union.




Porsche650 said:


> The pay seems to be higher then most pp that graduate college in mid end majors?


It's actually ironic that the cubicle dwellers with their degrees and what not, actually make LESS than many tradesmen working for the union.
These same cubicle dwellers look down on the construction force thinking they make little more than minimum wage....unfortunately, that is also their thinking when we work on their homes.




Porsche650 said:


> I mean there seems to be so much talk bout good but whats the bad to joining the union?


IMHO [in my humble opinion], the cycle of feast and famine is the worst thing about the union [although this could be said about about any of the building trades - union environment or not].


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## Lone Crapshooter

It is not a question of why does not every body want in the IBEW it is in my case I am baned from the union because My dad was a union carpenter. The local in my area prides itself in being a country club local and the majority of the members are related by blood or marrage. In the 70's when I was trying to get in the apprenticeship program they might take 10 and out of that 10 8 would be realitives or soon to be realitives one would be a female and one may have played high school sports and they will tell you that its fair.Now that went through the ABC appprenticeship program
I talked to the organizer he told me that I was over qualified and the local in this area did not do that much industrial work. and I know that is a lie.
LC


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## Frasbee

Porsche650 said:


> Also something that always pops in my head if union is So good then why don't more pp do it, The pay seems to be higher then most pp that graduate college in mid end majors?


Because some people believe they have souls, and aren't fond of the idea of selling them. :jester:


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## rfortuna25

Porsche650 said:


> ...I am located in New York so i would persume i would be directed to Local 3...


If you live in NYC there is a AWSOME school for electricians called School of Cooperative Technical Education "Coop-Tech"... I think you can take the 6 train to 96th street and then walk to the school, the school is right next to the FDR so walk towards the river, the school will be on the left hand side, next to some football field, but google it up and make sure, I could be wrong it's been a while since I been there...They offer just about any technical trade you can think of as well. I attended there back in 2003 and got a electricial installation diploma, right after school I was offered a job with ConEdison but my father did not want me to take it because he wanted me to go to college, which was the biggest mistake I ever made in my life,(not the going to school part, but turning down the job) I went to college for a semester and then quit because I was tired of school and then moved to Miami... Anyways to sum it up give them a call and they can help you get into the trade, either directly or indirectly.... And the best part is that it is 100% paid by the city so you dont have to worry about student loans and crap like that.

A buddy of mine that was in the same class as me and was offered to go into ConEdison at the same time as me is making like $45 bucks an hour right now so look into that school bro because that will be one of the only express routes you can take... Local 3 has a wait of like 2 or 3 years... I was going to move back to queens so I could see if I could get get another chance to get in but they told me that I got to wait that long and that's just to submit an application, that's not counting what you got to wait after that, so it will be a while before anyone can get in

Another company that gets a lot of people from them is MTA, I got another buddy that is making a killing too working for them as an electrician, the only thing that sucks is working inside the tunnels with a freaking train speeding right by you. 

I just wish I wouldnt have listened to my father when he told me not to take the job and I would be doing as well as those guys are.... He is 99.99% right but really messed me up there LOL

Good Luck!!!:thumbsup:


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## BCSparkyGirl

I have always worked non union, and have always been treated well. I would rather work for a few bucks less (be it union or not) and enjoy what I do, and the people I work with, than make a few bucks more and be miserable at work. You spend a fair chunk of your llife doing it, so I figure being happy and not stressed is the way to be. at the end of the day, who cares about the money, if you are so stressed out you end up with health issues because of it. Weither or not you choose union or not, just make sure you enjoy where you are working. Thats how I make my decision.


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## paul d.

Porsche650 said:


> I am new to the forum and was interested in knowing about Union Electricans. A little back round i decided to stop with college due to my lack of enthusiasm for my major(Mechanical Engineer). Also after 2 schools made mistakes and bad teachers i am at the point of no return. I was interested in the Union to be an Electrician i have been a mechanic since i was 16 and have a vast knowledge of how electrical components work yet understandable that commerical and housing is a different ball park. At this time would it be worth going into the Union? What is there wages? etc Any opinions on the issue?


 hey kid, go back to school.


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## brian john

Unions limit the number of members which they hope will drive up the hourly rate. This alienates those that cannot get in and limit the unions ability to supply men in a quick turn around in the economy.

This also provides a wealth of men for open shops.


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## Toronto Sparky

BCSparkyGirl said:


> I have always worked non union, and have always been treated well. I would rather work for a few bucks less (be it union or not) and enjoy what I do, and the people I work with, than make a few bucks more and be miserable at work. You spend a fair chunk of your llife doing it, so I figure being happy and not stressed is the way to be. at the end of the day, who cares about the money, if you are so stressed out you end up with health issues because of it. Weither or not you choose union or not, just make sure you enjoy where you are working. Thats how I make my decision.



I must agree with you there.. Union Jobs tend to be stuffy at times.
And in a lot of cases you don't even get to know who you are working with before you are moved out to a different job.


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## Celtic

brian john said:


> Unions limit the number of members which they hope will drive up the hourly rate.


:blink:
Ya think?

I disagree.
The market/economy dictates the volume of men.
The union has virtually no control over that - maybe labor's vote will get someone elected...not really having any significant value on Wall St.



brian john said:


> This ... limit the unions ability to supply men in a quick turn around in the economy.





Again, I disagree.
If a job goes unmanned from Book I, the job will go to Book II....
Book II [as I am sure you know, but for the benefit of others] is for travelers....IBEW members from the USA and Canada....they will be able to take the call.
If [and I have never heard of this happening] a call goes through Book I & II w/o any man taking the call, the job will go "to the street" ~ meaning the EC can hire whomever he feels like to man up the job until a man becomes available from the hall.

IMHO, there is always someplace in North America that has more qualified men than jobs - and vice versa
Unfortunately in today's economy, the lack of work seems to everywhere in NA, rather than in the sporadic pockets as many have grown accustomed to.


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## Celtic

Toronto Sparky said:


> And in a lot of cases you don't even get to know who you are working with before you are moved out to a different job.



It's like a blind date.
LOL :laughing:


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## RUSSIAN

"If [and I have never heard of this happening] a call goes through Book I & II w/o any man taking the call, the job will go "to the street" ~ meaning the EC can hire whomever he feels like to man up the job until a man becomes available from the hall."

In 332(Silicon valley) we have a book 3 and 4. book 3 is a guy with a minimum of 1 year experience, book 4 is anybody. Unfortunately I have seen calls go through the books, with guys sitting on 1 for whatever reason, lazy asses if you ask me. This hapens more then it should IMO.

My quick opinion. For me, in this area, IBEW is the way to go. But there are over 300 guys on book one right now, times are tough.


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## Celtic

RUSSIAN said:


> "If [and I have never heard of this happening] a call goes through Book I & II w/o any man taking the call, the job will go "to the street" ~ meaning the EC can hire whomever he feels like to man up the job until a man becomes available from the hall."
> 
> 
> 
> In 332(Silicon valley) we have a book 3 and 4. book 3 is a guy with a minimum of 1 year experience, book 4 is anybody.
Click to expand...

I think that is category 1 boiler plate language ....probably followed up with language that basically states after 2 weeks it's a free-for-all.




RUSSIAN said:


> Unfortunately I have seen calls go through the books, with guys sitting on 1 for whatever reason, lazy asses if you ask me. This hapens more then it should IMO.


....but only during "boom" periods...and then these same folks find fault with everyone and everything else other than themselves during the bust cycle....right?


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> Ya think?
> 
> I disagree.
> The market/economy dictates the volume of men.
> The union has virtually no control over that - maybe labor's vote will get someone elected...not really having any significant value on Wall St.


Unions limit membership 100% true, open shops have an unlimited number of members. 

The union dictates the number of men not the market in a downturn they limit mew members for an economy that will turn around. during good times they limit the nmber of men.

Limiting men ALWAYS results in a shortage of manpower in good times and allows a harder stance when it comes to raises.


> Again, I disagree.
> If a job goes unmanned from Book I, the job will go to Book II....
> Book II [as I am sure you know, but for the benefit of others] is for travelers....IBEW members from the USA and Canada....they will be able to take the call.
> If [and I have never heard of this happening] a call goes through Book I & II w/o any man taking the call, the job will go "to the street" ~ meaning the EC can hire whomever he feels like to man up the job until a man becomes available from the hall.
> 
> .



I think statistics will prove you wrong on this. UNIONS limit membership ask any open shop man.


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## Porsche650

What are the annual salaries like for the electricians? Also how are the jobs organized u start off being grunt worker then move to journey man/Wireman ? Also what is this M Certificate and A Certificate you need to take after 4 or 5 years?


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## brian john

We have had periods of 100% employment, where contractors could hire anyone off the streets.


Though there are some men that are only looking for short calls, like set ups of big shows that last a week or so. They may need need regular money, or know an easy job when they see it.


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## splinetto

brian john said:


> Unions limit the number of members which they hope will drive up the hourly rate. This alienates those that cannot get in and limit the unions ability to supply men in a quick turn around in the economy.
> 
> This also provides a wealth of men for open shops.


 I will have to disagree also...Unions are more worried about market share than limiting membership and the two are counterproductive..


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## brian john

splinetto said:


> I will have to disagree also...Unions are more worried about market share than limiting membership and the two are counterproductive..


NOPE, if they were, they would have unlimited open apprenticeship FOR ALL QUALIFIED applicants, not limiting membership, restricting it to family and close friends (as is often the case).

Unions have continuously lost market share in areas where the local is not all that strong, by limiting membership. While the open shops have unlimited OPEN membership.


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## splinetto

brian john said:


> NOPE, if they were, they would have unlimited open apprenticeship FOR ALL QUALIFIED applicants, not limiting membership, restricting it to family and close friends (as is often the case).
> 
> Unions have continuously lost market share in areas where the local is not all that strong, by limiting membership. While the open shops have unlimited OPEN membership.


 What would unlimited open apprenticships do except to flood the local with apprentices...You would have more cubs then JW.....and more people out of work in any economy...There is a limited amount of work, how can you man that with an unlimited workforce.


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## brian john

splinetto said:


> What would unlimited open apprenticships do except to flood the local with apprentices...You would have more cubs then JW.....and more people out of work in any economy...There is a limited amount of work, how can you man that with an unlimited workforce.


What does limiting apprenticeship do? It allows open shops to compete with ease.

You have ALL the apprentices and you will have better control in a market where there are both open shops and union shops


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## Frasbee

brian john said:


> What does limiting apprenticeship do? It allows open shops to compete with ease.
> 
> You have ALL the apprentices and you will have better control in a market where there are both open shops and union shops


I agree with this post.

An open shop came to _me _and offered me a job, no experience (at the referral of a carpenter)_._

Union won't come to me unless I'm already employed against them.


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## Lone Crapshooter

Brian is correct. There will only be a limited amount of any craftsmen in any geographic area that is just the way it is. Some of these people will be residential only some will be commerical only and some will be industrial only then some will be of mixed ability than can do 2 or 3 of the classifications. If the IBEW had them all organized they could control the market.
Now lets talk about Milton Friedmans favorite subject the power of the market place. That in and of it's self will have a thining effect on head count. As long as there is a moderate need for craftsmen you will be able to pick and choose who you want to work. When times are bad only the best will be working when times are booming you will have to work anyone who looks like a electrician. The bad ones will move on to other trades or maybe to Wall Mart or McDonalds and that will create a room for others to flurish. LC


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## al13nw4r3LC76

Better wages, better training and the best safety practices. Yes, it is worth it. If you are a good worker and stay employed Union is the way. Union pride!!!!


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Better wages, better training and the best safety practices. Yes, it is worth it. If you are a good worker and stay employed Union is the way. Union pride!!!!


From the mouth of a brain washed member.

Better wages YES, the rest is what you have been programed to believe.

All projects we work on have a high level of safety these days. DRIVEN by insurance companies, OSHA and lawyers. Training varies from area to area, open shop or union.


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## rlc3854

brian john said:


> From the mouth of a brain washed member.
> 
> Better wages YES, the rest is what you have been programed to believe.
> 
> All projects we work on have a high level of safety these days. DRIVEN by insurance companies, OSHA and lawyers. Training varies from area to area. open shop or union.[/quote]
> 
> This is so true, GC's, Companys, rental outfits, everybody wants to see verification of safety traing, arc/blast NFPA 70E training. You name it if helps keeping them from being sued their asking to see it.


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## Frasbee

Hey, the Union wanted to raise the standard of work safety and they succeeded.


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## steelersman

I'm a union member. I am not a diehard union guy. I am here because this is what just so happened to happen for me. I didn't ask to join. I was asked by my 4th year ABC teacher if I was interested in working for a company that just so happened to be union and whenever they wanted to hire they would ask this teacher for good students in his class and I was the one he referred to them. Now I know why after being hired, they told me to not talk about how I came to be hired with any of the other employees.

But I like the work we do and if my company went non-union for some reason I believe I would stay, since I'm spoiled now doing controls. I don't want to ever do any regular commercial electrical work. Residential is ok, but I just don't care too much for commercial.


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## paul d.

steeler, if comm is too tough, then you sure as heck better stay out of ind. work. ya *****!! :whistling2: ( you're right, control is good ) paul


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## steelersman

Hahaha! Yeah I hear ya!


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## brian john

steelersman said:


> I'm a union member. I am not a diehard union guy. I am here because this is what just so happened to happen for me. I didn't ask to join. I was asked by my 4th year ABC teacher if I was interested in working for a company that just so happened to be union and whenever they wanted to hire they would ask this teacher for good students in his class and I was the one he referred to them. Now I know why after being hired, they told me to not talk about how I came to be hired with any of the other employees.
> 
> But I like the work we do and if my company went non-union for some reason I believe I would stay, since I'm spoiled now doing controls. I don't want to ever do any regular commercial electrical work. Residential is ok, but I just don't care too much for commercial.



OH you specialist too good for the mundane everyday electrical work.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## steelersman

I do plenty of mundane work on the side.


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## BP_redbear

*union appears to be the best choice for me*



brian john said:


> ... All projects we work on have a high level of safety these days. DRIVEN by insurance companies, OSHA and lawyers. Training varies from area to area, open shop or union.


I am still new to the union (2nd yr apprentice Inside Wireman), having previously been employed in industrial tooling mfg shops (non-union).

From what I have seen so far as an IBEW apprentice on construction and renovation jobsites is that the other trades non-union contractors don't seem to give 2 cents about the men. (Union contractors may not really give 2 #*[email protected] about the men, either, but at least they are held to a high safety standard by the local union hall. I have seen carpenters and masons with very unsafe working environments. 

Hearing the bricklayers talk about the OSHA 10-hour class that they just had to attend, then watching them climb up their scaffold, right up the x-braces. Just 1 of a few observations...

Kind of seems like (some) non-union contractors are taking risks (with safety, potential OSHA fines, their insurance), for the sake of profit.

What can those workers say? Each one stands alone. Who's the one to speak up? The contractor can just say "If you don't like the conditions, get on down the road!"

And for wages, a non-union contractor can say to a well-qualified worker "Well, I don't really know you, or your abilities or training, so I am going to start you out at $5 less per hour than the rest of the guys, and if you prove to me that you are valuable, you will be bumped up (_maybe_, probably if you are worth it [certainly a contractor would want to keep a guy who truly is an asset] but no guarantee, certainly no contract). Maybe it depends on how many power tools you bring to the job: your own cordless drill, sawzall, hand benders, KO punch sets, hammer drill, on and on. Maybe get bumped up $0.50 here, $1.00 there. And there's always "If you don't like it, you can always go down the road!"

Just my opinions and observations.

If I was offered a job as an apprentice (or electrician, by way of my industrial plant machine technician training and experience) at a non-union shop for $5 more per hour tomorrow, I don't believe that I would take it. I worked in 3 different plants that were non-union, and you never knew if you would get a raise, when, how much, or if ever. There's always that carrot out there...

I have seen guys in two IBEW union shops so far that have way more skills, drive, craftsmanship and pride in their work than some other guys, and they get the same rate, which can be a sore spot, but when slow times come, it is obvious who will be the first to be laid off...

maybe I have it all wrong, like i said, I am new to the unoin, and new to the construction branch of the electrical trade, but I am certainly not brainwashed...

To the original poster's question, "Is it worth it to be a union electrician?" I have to say "Yes."

Wages, set wage increases through my apprenticeship, pension, annuity, NEBF, worksite safety, training. Oh, the companies I worked for in non-union industrial plants and a food processing plant had 'company match' to the 401k. I have seen them promised, then taken away... hung out there like a carrot. One plant called their 'match' the _bonus_! _If_ the company met a certain profit margin, then they would match a certain portion of your own contribution. Uh huh, that never happened. Seems like non-union means if you want any form of retirement, you're on your own to fund it. I have guaranteed (by contract) contractor contributions to my pension, already, just starting my 2nd year of apprenticeship...


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## al13nw4r3LC76

brian john said:


> From the mouth of a brain washed member.
> 
> Better wages YES, the rest is what you have been programed to believe.
> 
> All projects we work on have a high level of safety these days. DRIVEN by insurance companies, OSHA and lawyers. Training varies from area to area, open shop or union.


Question. In the non-union electrical apprenticeships in your area, how much class time/OJT is required for a JW card (commercial)?


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## canadatron

I'm trying to get into the union here in Ottawa (IBEW 586) and it's been a struggle. I had worked for a union shop for 18 months before being laid off but I still had not been accepted into the union, it's one heck of a long "probationary" period. When you compare the two wages of a non union shop versus a union shop you're looking at BIG differences. Non union commercial rates are about $ 28 - $32 per hour for Journeymen, where Union are paying around $36, and that's just the salary!! You also have to factor in health package, pension, and vacation pay. Usually a union job can work out to double the total value when put up against a non union position.


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Question. In the non-union electrical apprenticeships in your area, how much class time/OJT is required for a JW card (commercial)?


 
I have been in the trade 39 years and licensed 37 of those years. I have no clue. But I do know the hours for an approved apprenticeship are mandated by the feds.

My point is I sledom think of or know about the required hours. Sorry


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