# NC may do away with Arc Faults



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

The BDC is a joke.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

william1978 said:


> The BDC is a joke.


Do I detect a bit of bitterness. :laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Do I detect a bit of bitterness. :laughing:


 Your correct. I explain later Got to take my daughter to school.:thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

The BDC is made of mostly homebuilders that don't have a clue about electrical safety they think having these AFCI breakers will keep someone from being able to purchase a home which is BS. Just like Kim Reitterer said if they can afford all those granite counter tops what is a coulple bucks going to hurt them if that will not let them qualify for the loan they shouldn't be buying that house. I have heard that Kim Reitterer is a very sharp lady and knows her stuff.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is a bit of info passed on to me about arc faults.



> Dennis check out this information from the NFPA website. Just click on the links.
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/Homesfactsheet.pdf
> 
> ...


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

?????


Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is an article from the News and Observer on the arc fault story.
> I find the story to be totally inaccurate where they talk about arc faults only adding $60-100 to the price of a new home. Where did they get that data from?
> 
> Of course, I believe it is the changes in the 2008 that they are talking about.[/quote
> ...


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is an article from the News and Observer on the arc fault story.
> I find the story to be totally inaccurate where they talk about arc faults only adding $60-100 to the price of a new home. Where did they get that data from?
> 
> Of course, I believe it is the changes in the 2008 that they are talking about.


:blinkepends what county your in.In the western part of the state the inspectors ignore what ever they feel like.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

acmax said:


> :blinkepends what county your in.In the western part of the state the inspectors ignore what ever they feel like.


Because an inspector in the western part of the state chooses to ignore a violation will not resolve you of the liability if something should happen. You still have to install to code or you are taking a risk.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

acmax said:


> :blinkepends what county your in.In the western part of the state the inspectors ignore what ever they feel like.





Dennis Alwon said:


> Because an inspector in the western part of the state chooses to ignore a violation will not resolve you of the liability if something should happen. You still have to install to code or you are taking a risk.


 That Inspector needs to be reported to the state. Just because he chooses to ignore the the code because he might not agree with the code. He swore in that he would enforce the code to best of his ability, and who doesn't know about AFCI requirements.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Here is a bit of info passed on to me about arc faults.
> 
> 
> 399,000 Dwelling Fires per year and only 6% of these are electrical related. That means that only 23,940 of the 399,000 are electrical rated.
> Only 4% of fires happen in dens, living room, family room, and dinning rooms. That means that there are only 958 electrical fires in these rooms per year(23,940 X 4% = 958). Only 8% of fires happen in bedrooms (23,940 X 8% = 1915) per year. These are fact from NFPA not mine. I only did the math.​


In 2006, fire departments responded to 412,500 home fires in the United States, which claimed the lives of 2,580 people (not including firefighters) and injured another 12,925, not including firefighters.

In my searched Electrical was the cause in 14-23% of house fires.


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## acmax (Apr 20, 2009)

william1978 said:


> That Inspector needs to be reported to the state. Just because he chooses to ignore the the code because he might not agree with the code. He swore in that he would enforce the code to best of his ability, and who doesn't know about AFCI requirements.


Cherokee County , Murphy. Wife's friend new home last summer.No afci in panel. House had COgo figure.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

acmax said:


> Cherokee County , Murphy. Wife's friend new home last summer.No afci in panel. House had COgo figure.


 That is a complete shame.


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

I love how people blame the manufactures and say its them pushing the issue. I remember the 99' NEC code stating Arc Faults will be required by 2002. At that time there was no such thing and all manufacturers had three years to create one.

Builders just look at the cost of Arc faults as cutting into their 400% profit margins.

Although I do agree that they are still very much unreliable. I think they could have perfected the arc fault before increasing its demand.


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## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

Anyone know how the meeting turned out on this? I looked on the local news sites and TBJ, but didn't see anything.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I was curious of the samething.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

hiloelectric said:


> Although I do agree that they are still very much unreliable. I think they could have perfected the arc fault before increasing its demand.


I agree.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> Anyone know how the meeting turned out on this? I looked on the local news sites and TBJ, but didn't see anything.


The arc fault decision was put off until September but the se cable will continue to be 60C.

There was a fight to get se cable to be rated 75C but the building code council voted against it. I think the arc faults won't be denied in Sept. either. I bet they are hoping the economy picks up by then to make the decision. 

As it stands now the arc faults are still in NC code as written in the 2008 NEC


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> As it stands now the arc faults are still in NC code as written in the 2008 NEC


 I bet there are a bunch of people bitch'n about this.:laughing:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

People hated GFCI's back in the 70's also. Now they can't live without them. 

The approach that people won't be able to afford the additional cost is just a scare tactic. They are playing on the economy and the fears of not being able to get the housing market moving.
How much additional cost will there be ? $300 ? If $300 is pushing the house out of price range ,you can't afford the dam thing anyway!

Nobody bitchin about tamper resistant receptacles why's that ?

Here's another approach - A house is wired and inspected. The Jurisdiction has done away with Arc Fault Breakers so there are none in this house.
The house has an electrical fire and burns. The homeowner is told about Arc Faults by their insurance company. They are told had they had them the fire would have not been started. Too Bad the jurisdiction took them out of the national code.- Here comes the lawyer filing papers to sue anyone and everyone involved in removing a nationally recognized life safety device from the electrical code for that area. 
Sound crazy ? NO
remember someone sued McDonalds because the HOT coffee they bought was HOT and they burned THEMSELVES with it. They WON !!!!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Let me clarify that I am not necessarily complaining about the arc faults but just reporting. I am still uncertain of my feeling about them.

People are complaining about TR as well as wet location and having to have so many different devices on the vehicles. My suppliers don't stock standard devices anymore but the WR TR GFCI and WR TR receptacles adds that much more inventory. I wish they would make all device WR and be done with it. At least then the price should be equal to the TR's.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I saw a 8,000 sq. Ft. house yesterday that should have had TR recs ,but they were all the regular recs and that contractor was very upset at himself for missing that. He said it would take 2 days to change them out most of them are in the baseboard. 

I think we should have AFCI breakers, TR,WR recs ect.ect. I do believe it is a safer installation, but some of these things are a pain in the butt to work with.


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> People hated GFCI's back in the 70's also. Now they can't live without them.
> 
> The approach that people won't be able to afford the additional cost is just a scare tactic. They are playing on the economy and the fears of not being able to get the housing market moving.
> How much additional cost will there be ? $300 ? If $300 is pushing the house out of price range ,you can't afford the dam thing anyway!
> ...


It was my understanding that a local jurisdiction can NOT remove anything from the NEC, but they CAN add to it, if they refuse to require something thats in the code I would think they along with the installer is liable


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Just one example NC amended boring out under house's in the crawl spaces.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

In reality the NEC is not law until it is adopted by the jurisdiction.
That being said the jurisdiction can modify it however they desire.
This means they can add to it or delete from it.
I think a true "crafty" lawyer could create a case should something happen like i put in my prior post.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think the problem here is the use of the word "jurisdiction". The state usually decides what code to adopt and what amendments it wants to make. I think the poster was stating that specific jurisdictions in the state cannot modify what the state adopts unless it is stricter. Not sure that is really true but I think that was what was being said by prldp1


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

thats southerners for ya, they will challenge anything. even butter on toast.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Butter on toast?? WTF :laughing::laughing:


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I think the problem here is the use of the word "jurisdiction". The state usually decides what code to adopt and what amendments it wants to make. I think the poster was stating that specific jurisdictions in the state cannot modify what the state adopts unless it is stricter. Not sure that is really true but I think that was what was being said by prldp1


You are very close Dennis......all I know is what goes on here in the Chicago area, ALL suburbs adopt a building code,(not the state), NEC, Chicago Electrical code, Bocca etc, sometime we have to figure out which one they are following as Chicago's is usually stricter, anyway, the suburb adopts the code..(say the NEC) , they can NOT delete any of it if they have adopted it, but they can insert some of Chicago's stricter codes,(9 wires in a pipe max. etc) 99% of the time, we just wire per Chicago code to cover our ass


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## hiloelectric (Jun 11, 2009)

> all I know is what goes on here in the Chicago area, ALL suburbs adopt a building code,(not the state), NEC, Chicago Electrical code, Bocca etc, sometime we have to figure out which one they are following as Chicago's is usually stricter, anyway, the suburb adopts the code..(say the NEC) , they can NOT delete any of it if they have adopted it, but they can insert some of Chicago's stricter codes,(9 wires in a pipe max. etc) 99% of the time, we just wire per Chicago code to cover our ass


Here in Washington, The state Adopts the NEC and Adds the WAC Rules (Washington Administrative Code) which adds and takes away from the NEC. Certain Cities such as Seattle, Bellevue and Redmond have private City run inspections and have there own codes that they add to the NEC and WAC. 

The state can go against the NEC, the Cities can only add to the WAC and NEC. 

For Example The WAC Rules went against the NEC on Arc faults. They amended the code to only be for bedrooms and ajoining rooms. However Smoke detectors do not have to be on the arc fault. Then Bellevue and Kirkland said no we are going to make you install the Arcfaults as it states in the NEC.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Here in Maryland Each Jurisdiction adopts the code when and how they want.
That means there are counties in Maryland on the 02, some on the 05 and some on the 08.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

My biggest beef.. The relays in old bar fridges trip them out every time.
I rewired dorm rooms for a while and they required arc fault.
After the kids moved in with their old bar fridges it was a full time job reseting them.. so
most of the breakers got swapped back out.


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## 1991 Storm Trooper (Apr 7, 2009)

prldrp1 said:


> You are very close Dennis......all I know is what goes on here in the Chicago area, ALL suburbs adopt a building code,(not the state), NEC, Chicago Electrical code, Bocca etc, sometime we have to figure out which one they are following as Chicago's is usually stricter, anyway, the suburb adopts the code..(say the NEC) , they can NOT delete any of it if they have adopted it, but they can insert some of Chicago's stricter codes,(9 wires in a pipe max. etc) 99% of the time, we just wire per Chicago code to cover our ass


 
I've seen your Chicago Electric code book. That thing is almost as thick as the NEC. THERE NUTS!! I feel sorry for you guys. I've done a lot of houses around Lake Geneva the I had to pipe just because the people that own them are from Chicago and them insist it's better and safer. And what is with the sideways outlet? Is that a Chicago thing too?

In Wisconsin we have to start using arc faults january 2010. This should be fun.... NOT!!! Just putting pannels together is going to suck! Now that I think of it.. I supose I can't pull 3 wire HR's anymore can I? There's another added cost in labor.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Always thought 3/w was for Split recept. and switching only in res.
Well.. other than dryer and stove. 
My house has a couple of 3/w hrs but.. hey I'm a I.C.I. guy..
My house also as it's share of BX.


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> I've seen your Chicago Electric code book. That thing is almost as thick as the NEC. THERE NUTS!! I feel sorry for you guys. I've done a lot of houses around Lake Geneva the I had to pipe just because the people that own them are from Chicago and them insist it's better and safer. And what is with the sideways outlet? Is that a Chicago thing too?
> 
> In Wisconsin we have to start using arc faults january 2010. This should be fun.... NOT!!! Just putting pannels together is going to suck! Now that I think of it.. I supose I can't pull 3 wire HR's anymore can I? There's another added cost in labor.


hope that 3rd wire is a neutral. and you use a 2 pole breaker or single poles with handle ties (they are cheap), don't feel sorry for us, I have done *rope* jobs with plastic boxes, bx runs, and I would never use anything but EMT in my home or my families homes, with rope you need to crawl up in the attic just to install an other hot or switch leg,...here, just remove the device and pull another wire in the EMT run, its also rodent protected for garages, barns etc


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

prldrp1 said:


> I have done *rope* jobs with plastic boxes, bx runs, and I would never use anything but EMT in my home or my families homes, with rope you need to crawl up in the attic just to install an other hot or switch leg,...here, just remove the device and pull another wire in the EMT run, its also rodent protected for garages, barns etc


That seems to be the response from pipe guys from Chicago, What if you have to add....

I have lived in my house 15 years, and never once thought I needed to move that switch to the other side of the room.:whistling2:


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

jbfan said:


> That seems to be the response from pipe guys from Chicago, What if you have to add....
> 
> I have lived in my house 15 years, and never once thought I needed to move that switch to the other side of the room.:whistling2:


So if you deside to put a ceiling fan in your 15 yr old house, the switch operates the light kit but you have to pull the chain for the fan to operate?.....what if you wanted a fan speed control.....just pull another wire....so nice....so professional....what if your wife wanted the outlet in the corner of the living room to be switched, or just half of it?...tell her "to bad?"....just pull another wire.....nice thing about pipe, makes the job so much easier and keeps everyone happy and out of the *dog house*


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## 1991 Storm Trooper (Apr 7, 2009)

prldrp1 said:


> hope that 3rd wire is a neutral. and you use a 2 pole breaker or single poles with handle ties (they are cheap), don't feel sorry for us, I have done *rope* jobs with plastic boxes, bx runs, and I would never use anything but EMT in my home or my families homes, with rope you need to crawl up in the attic just to install an other hot or switch leg,...here, just remove the device and pull another wire in the EMT run, its also rodent protected for garages, barns etc


 
Well of coarse the 3rd wire's a neutral.!.!. :001_huh: What else are you going to use the 3rd wire from a 14/3 or 12/3 HR for?? 

Untill 08 code, you didn't need to use a 2 pole breaker with a 3 wire HR unless both circuits shared the same strap ( dish, disposal)

If you use rope in a new home, pull a 3 wire to the lights so they have that option. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem piping a house if there willing to pay for it. Actually,, that more money in my pocket. :thumbup: I just think it's over kill.

Rodent protection... I use a LA 308 AP4:gun_bandana:


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## prldrp1 (Jun 1, 2009)

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> Well of coarse the 3rd wire's a neutral.!.!. :001_huh: What else are you going to use the 3rd wire from a 14/3 or 12/3 HR for??
> 
> Untill 08 code, you didn't need to use a 2 pole breaker with a 3 wire HR unless both circuits shared the same strap ( dish, disposal)
> 
> ...


In my 35 yr old house I can re-circuit any device I choose just by removing the devices, the users of rope and emt will always have these descussions, the one big problem I just recently saw was a 2 story home originally done in rope, the installer cut ALL the grounds off, so that every device in the house was NOT grounded, the toggles were the type that didn't even have a grounding screw, and when the installer had to run a 3way, he dragged a seperate #14 alongside the 14-2, now granted this was done by a REAL hack and I am sure he wasn't an electrician of ANY level, but again, with an emt job, atleast there is a ground present all the way back to the panel. What we are seeing more of now here in Chicago in commercial work are specks calling for neutrals to be one size larger than the hots because of *harmonics*, also the requirement of a seperate ground wire in all power circuits. The inspectors here are really clamping down on the individual disconnecting means for all layin fixtures also!


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Have that issue in my house (1957) They only used cable with a ground in kitchen and washroom. Guess they saved a couple of dollars.. Hard to add grounds in a finished house.. Even for us old timers..


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## Buck Parrish (May 7, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Have that issue in my house (1957) They only used cable with a ground in kitchen and washroom. Guess they saved a couple of dollars.. Hard to add grounds in a finished house.. Even for us old timers..


 
It's easy just hire some one to do it for you.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

That's pretty amazing that NC is going to do away with arc faults. Eliminating an arc fault is an admirable goal, but how can you check every possible connection, wire nut, bus bar, terminal, etc in the entire state of NC for arc faults? Seems like a tall order to me. Are there going to be designated arc fault investigators who go around looking into outlet boxes, panels, and so forth?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

The arc-faults want be voted on till sept. from what I've heard. Another thing that I've heard is if they vote to do away with them there are some already to appeal it as soon as the vote goes thru.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

They should stop trying to make the public "safer" and just ban HO from doing their own wiring..* that *is where a lot of these problems come from


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

...and outlaw dollar stores and the illegal and counterfeit goods they sell.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

1991 Storm Trooper said:


> In Wisconsin we have to start using arc faults january 2010. This should be fun.... NOT!!! Just putting pannels together is going to suck! Now that I think of it.. I supose I can't pull 3 wire HR's anymore can I? There's another added cost in labor.


 Let you know that I did raise a little stink about AFCI's and they push it back to 2010 so that way the manufacter get the issue taken care of it.

BTW did you see some change in the COMM 16 section ? they streamline it and make it eaiser to read it.

Plus add few nice gotcha's there :blink:

Merci,Marc


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> They should stop trying to make the public "safer" and just ban HO from doing their own wiring..* that *is where a lot of these problems come from


 I agree 100% :thumbsup:


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> They should stop trying to make the public "safer" and just ban HO from doing their own wiring..* that *is where a lot of these problems come from


 Banning H.O. and all unlicensed people from doing Electrical work,
would do more for safety than anything.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Teaspoon said:


> Banning H.O. and all unlicensed people from doing Electrical work,
> would do more for safety than anything.


This is true but I have seen many an EC do some pretty hack work and they aren't even related to Peter D. 

Remember many ec hire helpers and they throw them into the fire without the necessary protection they need-- no training. Who is watching them? 

I have also seen some HO doing a pretty nice install but that is a rarity.


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## SmithBuilt (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't think banning the homeowner would do anything. In my area HO's are supposed to pull a permit and that is never done. 

I for one would be against any law preventing me from working on my own home. "You can have my tools when you pry them from my cold dead hands."


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Yeah, that's what we need, another government restriction on what we can do within our homes. We need a way to keeps hacks from doing work on _other_ peoples' homes, but if you want to burn your own place down, well, that's your business.


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