# Power for tv above ceiling tiles



## Akpolarbearone (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been seeing power for tv's above ceiling tiles where the cord goes up through a chase. The code I found was in 400.8 saying you can't do it but unless specifically allowed in 400.7. Not sure if being inturpited correctly. .


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

violation


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

We mount them in the ceiling tiles.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I've seen them mounted above there as well.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> I've seen them mounted above there as well.


This is a very common code violation.

400.8(2) & (5) are very clear that flexible cord is not permitted to be run through or above a suspended ceiling.

Chris


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I've done it as well as hundreds of other people. Sue me. Nothing unsafe about it. Just plead the I don't know what they were using that receptacle for card haha.

Unless you install the TV technically you're not the one making the violation.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Done here all the time as well, but its s code violation as said above.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

crazyboy said:


> Done here all the time as well, but its s code violation as said above.


Not sure if it is a code violation for us canucks. I'll have to look up later and find out.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

From what I've always understood, a jiffy pole is the only exception to this rule because it passes through the ceiling rather than the cord. The other big problem caused by allowing people to put a receptacle above a ceiling is that it allows people the option of running extension cords through the ceiling ... Bars and pubs are notorious for this, if it is deemed as temporary it is allowed as far as I know, but still not good practice. If I am wrong about any of this please let me know.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

MattMc said:


> From what I've always understood, a jiffy pole is the only exception to this rule because it passes through the ceiling rather than the cord. The other big problem caused by allowing people to put a receptacle above a ceiling is that it allows people the option of running extension cords through the ceiling ... Bars and pubs are notorious for this, if it is deemed as temporary it is allowed as far as I know, but still not good practice. If I am wrong about any of this please let me know.


Do you know a code ref where it states that it is only allowed for jiffy's and nothing else? I mean 12-010 (4) states a rec can be used in the suspended space for a jiffy pole but its kinda unclear as if anything else can have a rec above ceiling tile.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

CanadianSparky said:


> I've done it as well as hundreds of other people. Sue me. Nothing unsafe about it. Just plead the I don't know what they were using that receptacle for card haha.
> 
> Unless you install the TV technically you're not the one making the violation.





crazyboy said:


> Done here all the time as well, but its s code violation as said above.





CanadianSparky said:


> Not sure if it is a code violation for us canucks. I'll have to look up later and find out.


 
Why not just put the receptacle face down , in the tile?


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

I only know of the reference you are talking about out of section 12 and that putting a receptacle in the tile is the method for anything that needs a plug up there like a projector or a tv.


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

I see it all the time here -shrug-


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why not just put the receptacle face down , in the tile?


Why not just install in the ceiling 

What is your method of installing in the tile? You could use a retro with back clamp but I find that *most* ceiling tiles are crap and fall apart to easy. You could use a bar hanger but still seems a little flimsy to me for a receptacle.

And I'm not all sure if it's a violation up here or not.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

I use an 1104la box, and a t-bar hanger bar, but not the caddy one, I'll look into the model I use tomorrow, bit it's a good and sturdy installation I have used this in several projector setups at a local college, I have also installed the same setup at many dental offices for TV's above exam chairs.


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## Akpolarbearone (Sep 29, 2011)

I would like to put in the tile but they are trying to keep
It how it is. The building was built in one state and shipped out to where I am now so we are just doing IWL's. Thought it was a violation. Did not know jiffy's were allowed to run the power cord up through. I thought it was only for data cords.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Read the art. that Chris stated in post #5. Rubber cord is not allowed in the dropped ceiling. The recep. is legal there not the cord.


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

Jiffy's usually come with 2-4 receptacles on one side and the other side is for voice and data. The receptacles are usually fed by a 6foot cord with a male end on it. I have hard wired alot of them in government building just to match existing but a receptacle is allowed for this purpose.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> I've done it as well as hundreds of other people. Sue me. *Nothing unsafe about it. *Just plead the I don't know what they were using that receptacle for card haha.
> 
> Unless you install the TV technically you're not the one making the violation.


The problem with flexible cord above a suspended ceiling is the the rubber cord will dry out and the insulation will crack and fall off creating a hazard. If the cord is concealed above a suspended ceiling the damage will not be readily viable and may go unnoticed.

Chris


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> The problem with flexible cord above a suspended ceiling is the the rubber cord will dry out and the insulation will crack and fall off creating a hazard. If the cord is concealed above a suspended ceiling the damage will not be readily viable and may go unnoticed.
> 
> Chris


I'm not arguing with you, because when it comes to code you know your shít, but is that true? I've never seen insulation dry out and crack. I've seen thousands of feet of SO in ceilings and have never seen damage. Why is it legal in a raised floor and not above the grid?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

You can install the recep there, they just can't legally plug anything into it.:thumbup:

Last one I did, I put it in the tile just to stay legal. If for some reason they would have wanted it above the grid, I would have done it.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> I'm not arguing with you, because when it comes to code you know your shít, but is that true? I've never seen insulation dry out and crack. I've seen thousands of feet of SO in ceilings and have never seen damage. Why is it legal in a raised floor and not above the grid?


It is only legal in a raised floor that complies with Article 645. The general rule in 400.8 (5) prohibits flexible cord from being concealed by floors. Keep in mind that the 2011 NEC requires that the power supply cord for information technology equipment be listed for the purpose or be constructed of listed cord and cord connectors that themselves are listed for use with information technology equipment.

I have seen SO cord that has dry rotted and the outer covering split and come apart. This is an issue with rubber.

Chris


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

220/221 said:


> You can install the recep there, they just can't legally plug anything into it.:thumbup:
> 
> *Last one I did, I put it in the tile just to stay legal. *If for some reason they would have wanted it above the grid, I would have done it.


Like this: 











For a video projector in a screening room I did. :thumbup:

I have also installed video projectors where the power cord goes up inside the support pipe and plugs into a receptacle mounted right next to the mount, above the tile. 

Honestly, even in installs over 15 years old, I have NEVER seen a bad cord when done that way. Not saying it _*can't*_ happen, but I haven't seen it happen. Frankly, I find the Code to be a bit draconian on this one.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

raider1 said:


> The problem with flexible cord above a suspended ceiling is the the rubber cord will dry out and the insulation will crack and fall off creating a hazard. If the cord is concealed above a suspended ceiling the damage will not be readily viable and may go unnoticed.
> 
> Chris


Like someone already stated I have never seen SO in a drop ceiling cracked. Now I have seen SO in a pool pump room crack and fall apart but that is because of the environment is totally different. Really there is nothing in a drop ceiling that would cause a cord to crack and fall apart like that.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

What about the secondary of a Class 2 power supply? The reason I ask is that it was requested of me in a doctor's office I did. They wanted a WIFI router up inside the ceiling. I looked at the power supply, and it was a wall wart plug in. The secondary is a flexible cable, but wouldn't have line voltage on it. I went ahead an did it. What do you all think?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

CanadianSparky said:


> Like someone already stated I have never seen SO in a drop ceiling cracked. Now I have seen SO in a pool pump room crack and fall apart but that is because of the environment is totally different. Really there is nothing in a drop ceiling that would cause a cord to crack and fall apart like that.


Code Making Panel 6 disagrees with you, hence the prohibition to installing flexible cord above a suspended ceiling.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Barjack said:


> What about the secondary of a Class 2 power supply? The reason I ask is that it was requested of me in a doctor's office I did. They wanted a WIFI router up inside the ceiling. I looked at the power supply, and it was a wall wart plug in. The secondary is a flexible cable, but wouldn't have line voltage on it. I went ahead an did it. What do you all think?


If the secondary wiring of the Class 2 power supply is actually done with a flexible cord as specified in 400.4 then it would be a violation of 400.8(5).

But if you are using a Listed Class 2 cable such as a CL2 or CL3 cable then Article 400 does not apply.

Chris


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

The cable is just the wire coming off the wall wart. It was the power supply that came in the box with the router. Now that I think about it, I don't think it qualifies as a "flexible" cord or cable, so I think it would be legal.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> ...Is that true? I've never seen insulation dry out and crack. I've seen thousands of feet of SO in ceilings and have never seen damage....


 I think this is mostly a problem with cheap cords in harsh environments. I've run into quite a few crumbling cords, but I can't remember the last time one was in a dry 70 degree office space.

With a decent cord, I honestly think it's a moot point, and that the equipment running off the cord will fail long before the cord does. But on an inspected job, I'd put the receptacle in the tile or find a different wiring method.

-John


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

On the job I'm on, I'm getting ready to install a receptacle face down in the ceiling, but I'm dealing with a sheet rock ceiling (for some reason, in certain areas the sheet rock is 3-4 layers thick...). Think I'll have issues with an old work box?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

_Janagyjr, _in those cases I've had good success using metal boxes and madison straps. Just bend the strap into a "┐" shape and hammer the top part of the ┐ between the layers of sheetrock, then bend the ends over like normal.

-John


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

CanadianSparky said:


> Like someone already stated I have never seen SO in a drop ceiling cracked. Now I have seen SO in a pool pump room crack and fall apart but that is because of the environment is totally different. Really there is nothing in a drop ceiling that would cause a cord to crack and fall apart like that.





Big John said:


> I think this is mostly a problem with cheap cords in harsh environments. I've run into quite a few crumbling cords, but I can't remember the last time one was in a dry 70 degree office space.
> 
> With a decent cord, I honestly think it's a moot point, and that the equipment running off the cord will fail long before the cord does. But on an inspected job, I'd put the receptacle in the tile or find a different wiring method.
> 
> -John


I use to use cord on the sewing machines on the production floor. We had heat (gas) and air conditioning, never too hot or cold, no chemicals etc. The cords would start to crack and dry out in just a few years. So, yes they will crack and dry out even in a fairly normal environment. We did start using the grey colored cord that seemed to hold up better than the black.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> ...The cords would start to crack and dry out in just a few years....


 I don't know for sure, but it seems like whenever I run into that the cord appears to be simple rubber.

I think it's much more common now that cords made of more composites, stuff like Seoprene, that's a whole lot more stable over time.

-John


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Big John said:


> _Janagyjr, _in those cases I've had good success using metal boxes and madison straps. Just bend the strap into a "┐" shape and hammer the top part of the ┐ between the layers of sheetrock, then bend the ends over like normal.
> 
> -John


Sounds like a plan to me!


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Barjack said:


> What about the secondary of a Class 2 power supply? The reason I ask is that it was requested of me in a doctor's office I did. They wanted a WIFI router up inside the ceiling. I looked at the power supply, and it was a wall wart plug in. The secondary is a flexible cable, but wouldn't have line voltage on it. I went ahead an did it. *What do you all think*?


I don't lose any sleep over it.


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Code Making Panel 6 disagrees with you, hence the prohibition to installing flexible cord above a suspended ceiling.
> 
> Chris


Good thing I don't follow the NEC lol


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why not just put the receptacle face down , in the tile?


Well I didn't say I put them there, I said its done around here. :thumbup:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

janagyjr said:


> On the job I'm on, I'm getting ready to install a receptacle face down in the ceiling, but I'm dealing with a sheet rock ceiling (for some reason, in certain areas the sheet rock is 3-4 layers thick...). Think I'll have issues with an old work box?


Sometimes the ceiling will be 3-4 layers thick due to the required fire resistance rating of the ceiling assembly. If the ceiling is a required fire rated assembly then you can't use an old work box.

Chris


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## MattMc (May 30, 2011)

Buy an old work box with knock outs Use an l-16 into the back of the box, and make you own f clips.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Sometimes the ceiling will be 3-4 layers thick due to the required fire resistance rating of the ceiling assembly. If the ceiling is a required fire rated assembly then you can't use an old work box.
> 
> Chris


This building is 50 years old. 4 layers of sheet-rock is beyond any fire resistance rating requirement. This is lazy people who remodel the building without taking down the old stuff (5/8" or 1/2" sheet rock all the way).


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