# aluminum to copper wire splicing



## McClary’s Electrical

I just finished a full remodel that had alot of aluminum wire. You have two options. Buy devices rated for al. or make pigtails with approved wirenut ($5.00 for two) In those house, I did both. I found devices rated for fairly cheap, and used about 30 of those wirenuts total. (some places I had to make joints)


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## B4T

I just finished a pig tail job that was partially done by a hack :no:

He cut the wires short and luckily I decided to use Ideal Purples for splicing.

If I had gone with just the devices, the wires would of been a nightmare to get around the terminals 

Purples are *only* rated for AL/CU connections

According to manufacture not allowed for AL/AL, but I used them for it because better than a standard wire nut :thumbsup:


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## partimer31

*mcclary's electrical* and* black4truck*

Thanks for your recent post. 

I have a some follow up questions, for the two of you.

Did you both used the purple Idea 65 Twist-On?

And was this your your first job, involving aluminum romex cable?




THANKS :thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait

Yeah, I also use the purple ideal wirenuts. I've done several. Those things are way over-priced.


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## Shado

When doing this upgrade, do you disturb any of the existing splices? Such as neutrals, etc.., what then?


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## busymnky

Black4Truck said:


> I just finished a pig tail job that was partially done by a hack :no:
> 
> He cut the wires short and luckily I decided to use Ideal Purples for splicing.
> 
> If I had gone with just the devices, the wires would of been a nightmare to get around the terminals
> 
> Purples are *only* rated for AL/CU connections
> 
> According to manufacture not allowed for AL/AL, but I used them for it because better than a standard wire nut :thumbsup:


 
I don't understand your thinking. How can something that is "not allowed" be a better option, in any circumstance? When the fire marshall finishes his investigation he will say you used the wrong wire nuts.


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## McClary’s Electrical

I've done several remodels that had aluminum. Don't worry about "disturbing" anything. As long as you've got worenuts approved, you're fine. Just be really careful when stripping. DO NOT knick the condutor with strippers. Al. is much more delicate than copper. If it's knicked, when you put on wirenut it wil break and you may not notice it. of course, don't disturb anything you don't have to.


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## 220/221

I use regular wire nuts in most cases. I personally don't believe that the wirenuts are the issue. If they were, why don't all the millions of splices fail? 

I pull apart AL on a regular basis and generally don't see any issues if it was installed properly.

The issues I see are where someone has changed out the switches/receps with copper devices and where the wire was ringed during stripping and snapped off after it was bent back into the box.

If it's a specific *whole house pigtail job*, I will reluctantly submit to the scam/hype/liabilty scare and use purple nuts.


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## McClary’s Electrical

220/221 said:


> I use regular wire nuts in most cases. I personally don't believe that the wirenuts are the issue. If they were, why don't all the millions of splices fail?
> 
> I pull apart AL on a regular basis and generally don't see any issues if it was installed properly.
> 
> The issues I see are where someone has changed out the switches/receps with copper devices and where the wire was ringed during stripping and snapped off after it was bent back into the box.
> 
> If it's a specific *whole house pigtail job*, I will reluctantly submit to the scam/hype/liabilty scare and use purple nuts.


I'm with you!,,,,it's just a wirenut with no-ox inside, however,I think it's got a less aggressive thread pitch, to prevent stripping the soft al. When we're talking about liability, and not to mention the inspectors around here look closely, I ALWAYS use the right wire nut.


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## B4T

busymnky said:


> I don't understand your thinking. How can something that is "not allowed" be a better option, in any circumstance? When the fire marshall finishes his investigation he will say you used the wrong wire nuts.


 
What would you do if it was *your* house?? :blink:

They don't make a wire nut that is UL approved for AL/AL splices 

My choices are either leave a 40 year old wire nut on the neutrals in a switch or use a Purple 

I don't think that adding a copper element to an AL splice has any mystical powers to make it "approved"

I am also adding arc fault breakers to all circuits mandated in the NEC :thumbsup:


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## Jim Port

For those that don't like the Ideal purples.

http://www.kinginnovation.com/products/electrical-products/alumiconn/

They call for a torque screwdriver, but do list an alternate method.


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## RePhase277

I generally make a big pile of aluminum wire on the floor as I'm installing new copper romex. That's how I splice aluminum.


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## partimer31

To you guys out there working with aluminum romex, thank you , for submitting your posts.

Here is a link you may want to take a look. To those who do look at it, I welcome all feed back, positive
and negative.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.pdf


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## mikheil

Ok to use regular nuts for Al splicing in the basis that not all the millions of splices out in the field have failed???

Come on... isn't this forum supposed to be for 'professionals'??


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## partimer31

delected due to computer operator error


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## partimer31

I like this guy. I like where he's going. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical

I thought it was for professionals, but there's a few hacks on here too:whistling2: not mentioning any names


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## B4T

mcclary's electrical said:


> I thought it was for professionals, but there's a few hacks on here too:whistling2: not mentioning any names


We always name names.. no fun otherwise :laughing:


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> What would you do if it was *your* house?? :blink:
> 
> *They don't make a wire nut that is UL approved for AL/AL splices *


It strikes me that there must be a reason no one is selling overpriced AL to AL wirenuts. If they could make a safe one I am sure they would be available. 

Just something to think about.


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> It strikes me that there must be a reason no one is selling overpriced AL to AL wirenuts. If they could make a safe one I am sure they would be available.
> 
> Just something to think about.


My guess would be the price of testing to get UL is not worth it because of demand for AL/AL wire nuts.

What would you do in a situation where the choice was to leave a 40 year old wire nut or replace it with a Ideal Purple made for AL/CU only?? :blink:


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## partimer31

Idea purple 65 in my opinion will not be the solution to this problem.
And it's rumor to be fill with a flammable oxide-inhibitor.

So I would suggest, short of a re-do over with copper wire, anyone
that is making a aluminum to aluminum or aluminum to copper splice,
should install a AFCI circuit breaker to watch over the aluminum
circuit they have work on.

And even if the home owner original electrical panel, will not support 
such a device, a new distribution panel should be installed that would
accommodate such a breaker.

And to go one further, may sure the house has working smoke and C.O.
detectors when you leave the job.

The earlier aluminum romex/NM cable, had an insulation temp. rating
that was lower, then what appear in the seventy's.

My thoughts and opinions are now open for discussion.


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> My guess would be the price of testing to get UL is not worth it because of demand for AL/AL wire nuts.


I think that there is as much as a demand for AL/AL wirenuts as AL/CU and that they would simply charge accordingly.




> What would you do in a situation where the choice was to leave a 40 year old wire nut or replace it with a Ideal Purple made for AL/CU only?? :blink:


Don't know, it would really depend on so many factors, most likely I would go with a listed connector or find a way that did not require me to create a violation.


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## RePhase277

Wasn't it just awhile back that someone posted a link to an Ideal "marrette" that was rated for Al/Al? It was CSA approved, which is probably good enough. I myself very rarely see aluminum wiring, and when I do, it is usually in a situation where I can rip it out anyway.


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## B4T

InPhase277 said:


> Wasn't it just awhile back that someone posted a link to an Ideal "marrette" that was rated for Al/Al? It was CSA approved, which is probably good enough. I myself very rarely see aluminum wiring, and when I do, it is usually in a situation where I can rip it out anyway.


I tried to order them through my supply house, but no can do 

They are only available in Canada and I was told they needed to be UL approved to use here :blink:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> I think that there is as much as a demand for AL/AL wirenuts as AL/CU and that they would simply charge accordingly.
> 
> Most guys would leave the existing wire nut alone, so there really is no demand for AL/AL connectors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know, it would really depend on so many factors, most likely I would go with a listed connector or find a way that did not require me to create a violation.


There are not many factors here to begin with.. sounds like you are doing a song n dance routine :laughing:

I know it's a tough question and you are trying to be PC :thumbsup:


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## 220/221

> Come on... isn't this forum supposed to be for 'professionals'??


I get paid to do it, therefore I are a professional :thumbup:

A professional can have his *own* opinion and not follow the panicked lemmings over the cliff.

When you have installed as much AL wire as I have and when you have reworked as much existing AL wire as I have, get back with me.




I also think that the risks of asbestos, mold and radon (from granite counter tops :laughing are highly over exxagerated.


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## partimer31

220/221 some your post friends are talking behind your back on another
form.


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## BadSplice

partimer31 said:


> 220/221 some your post friends are talking behind your back on another
> form.


AWWWWWW SNAP. 

Link!


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## mikheil

220/221 said:


> I get paid to do it, therefore I are a professional :thumbup:
> 
> A professional can have his *own* opinion and not follow *the panicked lemmings over the cliff.*
> 
> When you have installed as much AL wire as I have and when you have reworked as much existing AL wire as I have, get back with me.
> 
> 
> I also think that the risks of asbestos, mold and radon (from granite counter tops :laughing are highly over exxagerated.


by that do you mean NEC and other safety codes??

you can certainly have your own opinion on anything, I myself have my own opinion on many NEC codes that I think need revising, but that's different from doing a careless job such as using incorrect nuts for a specific metal in the basis that the way you have done it for many years has not (yet) caused a problem or even a fire!

What makes you think that I haven't done as much or more Al as you have? Do you think that my number of posts in this forum directly relates to my years of experience????

When you go back and inspect all the Al splices that you have done in your career and check that not a single one has become loose, oxidized, carbonized or worse you get back to me..

There are reasons why the NEC safety codes are there. They are the results of many years of research, testing, product development, accidents, fires, deaths, etc.

Choosing to ignore the codes simply because you think they are wrong and you think you know better is extremely unprofessional at best.


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## itsunclebill

Alumiconns are listed for any combination of 2 or 3 wires, #10 or #12 solid AL and solid or stranded #18 to #10 Cu. :blink: They're cheaper than the purple wire nuts if you buy them in quantity, I think the last I got were around $2.50 ea or so - I generally get a least a hundred at a time. The company will let you know who sells locally or who will ship. If you're in an area where you have a lot of aluminum wire try to get a distributer to stock them - they seem to move pretty well once word gets out.

If you do this (electrical work) for a living you already have a torque screwdriver in the tool box - unless you have those calibrated wrists I've read about:whistling2:

The Alumiconns will generally push against the back of the box with careful positioning - makes the difference of getting a GFCI receptacle in or not sometimes. Probably the only thing I'd like to see is a 4 wire version.


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## 220/221

> 220/221 some your post friends are talking behind your back on another
> form.


Link us !! :thumbup:





> What makes you think that I haven't done as much or more Al as you have?


I just get that feeling. 

If you had the experience I have you would be less....I don't know....paranoid?




> that's different from doing a careless job such as using incorrect nuts for a specific metal


It's not about the metal and it's not about oxidation. Why would one connection out of a thousand/ten thousand fail if that were the case?

Al has issues. The wire nuts are not one of them.



> There are reasons why the NEC safety codes are there. They are the results of many years of research, testing, product development, accidents, fires, deaths, etc.


I fully understand the reasons behind all laws. I also know when it's safe to jaywalk.




> Choosing to ignore the codes simply because you think they are wrong and you think you know better is extremely unprofessional at best.


Be honest. Which codes do you ignore? Do you tape a #6 wire green? Maybe you use a self tapping SMS to ground an enclousre? Spill it.


Wait....are you that Mike....what's his name.....that used to post under a different name? The teacher/instructor guy who went to the police station and tried to turn himself in for speeding?

What was that clown's name?:jester:


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## Bob Badger

220/221 said:


> I fully understand the reasons behind all laws.


No, you do not, and neither do I, and neither does anyone else.

When we get to the point where we think we know more then more than 100 years of code writing we have become unprofessional.


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## mikheil

220/221 said:


> Link us !! :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just get that feeling.
> 
> If you had the experience I have you would be less....I don't know....paranoid?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about the metal and it's not about oxidation. Why would one connection out of a thousand/ten thousand fail if that were the case?
> 
> Al has issues. The wire nuts are not one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I fully understand the reasons behind all laws. I also know when it's safe to jaywalk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be honest. Which codes do you ignore? Do you tape a #6 wire green? Maybe you use a self tapping SMS to ground an enclousre? Spill it.
> 
> 
> Wait....are you that Mike....what's his name.....that used to post under a different name? The teacher/instructor guy who went to the police station and tried to turn himself in for speeding?
> 
> What was that clown's name?:jester:


there is no point in continuing with this. do as you please.. create your own NEC code... after all you are a 'professional'... (at least that's what you call yourself).. best of luck to your customers!

my name is miguel, san jose, ca, (have you not noticed my broken accent yet?) 

pleased to meet you.

your instructor turned himself in for speeding? now it all makes sense..:laughing::thumbup:


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> There are not many factors here to begin with.. sounds like you are doing a song n dance routine :laughing:


Not to say I have never done that, :laughing: but in this case there are a lot of factors.

How easy would it be to replace the AL?

How deep are the customers pockets?

What is the load I am feeding? 2000 watts of electric heat or 1 watt for a clock

What is the condition of the wiring etc.



> I know it's a tough question and you are trying to be PC :thumbsup:


Mostly it comes down to the fact I do not have to deal with this problem.


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## Bob Badger

Bob Badger said:


> No, you do not, and neither do I, and neither does anyone else.
> 
> When we get to the point where we think we know more then more than 100 years of code writing we have become unprofessional.


Maybe I could have put that better, I am not holier than anyone and I don't want to sound like a prick. I just think that before I decide to ignore the code based on my 25 years of experience I should consider that 'the code' has a lot more experience and information than I do.


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## macmikeman

Time to bust in on this with some unsound reasoning. As said they probably didn't want to spend the money to have UL test al to al. Why is because they no longer make small alum romex, so why spend money to get listed for al to al? Add on's to existing aluminum wired houses will get new nm-b copper romex, so the listing tested copper mixed with aluminum conductors. As far as the old no-alox burning issue, I did some research once just for the bang of it all. No-alox has a flash point of about 600 deg F as I recall and the insulation on the nm-b has a flash point of over 900 deg F. so yes theoreticlly the no-alox will ignite before the wire will, but how often does either get to 600 F and a breaker doesn't trip someplace? (the degree figures are out of memory, I'm not going back to looking, you can check for yourself and tell me how wrong I am I don't mind, it happens all the time....)


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## RePhase277

UL listing or not, physics is physics. How can a wire nut be safe for copper to aluminum connections, but not be safe for aluminum to aluminum? That's just silly.


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## Jim Port

I always thought that you could use it for either AL/AL or Al/CU. Why would these be any different than a dual rated split bolt?


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## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> UL listing or not, physics is physics. How can a wire nut be safe for copper to aluminum connections, but not be safe for aluminum to aluminum? That's just silly.


I don't know, I don't care either.

I use products as intened ........... unless it's my own home.


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> I use products as intened ........... unless it's my own home.


I would expect nothing less from a guy who:

Never does side job for cash 

Never speeds :no:

Pays all his taxes :whistling2:


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## 220/221

> No, you do not, and neither do I, and neither does anyone else.


You are misunderstanding. I know the _general reason_ for law, not the specific reasons for every law. Laws are usually very general. They have to be. The more they have to encompass, they more wordy and open to interpetation they become. We all know that the NEC is a fine example of that.

Everyone at some point will violate the law according to their own standards. *Everyone*. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws and it doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.

You can't fault me simply on the basis that I violate a law if you do the same thing.




> there is no point in continuing with this. do as you please


Classic. When you don't have a good answer, you say "nevermind". You *know* you violate the code on occaision. You know you use an unlisted product on occaision, but if you admit it, you have to concede that I am right . You can't say that your violation is any more professional than mine, can you?



> your instructor turned himself in for speeding? now it all makes sense


Not *my* instructor. There was a guy named Mike something that used to post on the electrical message boards that claimed to have *never* viloated the code in any fashion. When pressed, he claimed to have never even violated the speed limit. When pressed further he claimed to have gone to the police station and confessed to speeding. He was obviously lying, don't ya think?



> I just think that before I decide to ignore the code based on my 25 years of experience I should consider that 'the code' has a lot more experience and information than I do.


Experience isn't the only factor. If that was the case, you would have to follow my instruction because I have 10 years on you :thumbup:

Like every part of life you must make decisions based on input from many sources. If you put your trust in *one source* it leaves you vulnerable. If electricians wrote the NEC it would be a better guide. When too many engineers, lawyers and manufacturers that get involved the NEC gets murky.




> I use products as intened ........... unless it's my own home.


Ok, :laughing:...two things.

1. You use *this *product (Al connectors) as intended. There* are* cases when you use a non listed product because _you feel it's an acceptable solution._

2. Even if it's your home, the NEC still applies. The NEC is designed to protect the future owners of your home too.



Finally, To newguy Miguel, don't take internet discussion personally until someone calls you a douchebag or something. Remember, it's a 
forum to discuss sometimes diffent points of view.


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## mikheil

220/221 said:


> You are misunderstanding. I know the _general reason_ for law, not the specific reasons for every law. Laws are usually very general. They have to be. The more they have to encompass, they more wordy and open to interpetation they become. We all know that the NEC is a fine example of that.
> 
> Everyone at some point will violate the law according to their own standards. *Everyone*. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws and it doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.
> 
> You can't fault me simply on the basis that I violate a law if you do the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Classic. When you don't have a good answer, you say "nevermind". You know you violate the code on occaision. You know you use an unlisted product on occaision, but if you admit it, you have to concede that I am right . You can't say that your violation is any more professional than mine, can you?*
> 
> 
> 
> Not *my* instructor. There was a guy named Mike something that used to post on the electrical message boards that claimed to have *never* viloated the code in any fashion. When pressed, he claimed to have never even violated the speed limit. When pressed further he claimed to have gone to the police station and confessed to speeding. He was obviously lying, don't ya think?
> 
> 
> 
> Experience isn't the only factor. If that was the case, you would have to follow my instruction because I have 10 years on you :thumbup:
> 
> Like every part of life you must make decisions based on input from many sources. If you put your trust in *one source* it leaves you vulnerable. If electricians wrote the NEC it would be a better guide. When too many engineers, lawyers and manufacturers that get involved the NEC gets murky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, :laughing:...two things.
> 
> 1. You use *this *product (Al connectors) as intended. There* are* cases when you use a non listed product because _you feel it's an acceptable solution._
> 
> 2. Even if it's your home, the NEC still applies. The NEC is designed to protect the future owners of your home too.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, To newguy Miguel, don't take internet discussion personally until someone calls you a douchebag or something. Remember, it's a
> forum to discuss sometimes diffent points of view.


again, there is no point in continuing with this because no matter what i say, you will continue to ignore the NEC code on the basis that you think you know better than the code... if you don't see this as unprofessional, then there is nothing else I can tell you.

you are already 'fossilized' in your beliefs and no one's going to change you.


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## BadSplice

mikheil said:


> again, there is point in continuing with this because no matter what i say, you will continue to ignore the NEC code on the basis that you think you know better than the code... if you don't see this as unprofessional, then there is nothing else I can tell you.
> 
> you are already 'fossilized' in your beliefs and no one's going to change you.


He does make a point. Do you follow the letter of the law to the exact word? If you don't, then how do you choose what to follow and what not to follow? Do you use your judgement and experience to help decide?

I don't particularly agree with him in what he said he does in this thread. But he has a valid point since every single one of us here knowingly breaks the code and the law.


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## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> I would expect nothing less from a guy who:
> 
> Never does side job for cash
> 
> Never speeds :no:
> 
> Pays all his taxes :whistling2:



I have not done a side job in years, I turn them away, not interested.

Oh I speed, don't know where you got the impression I do not.

And yes, for the last 15 or more years I have paid all my taxes.


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## Bob Badger

BadSplice said:


> He does make a point. Do you follow the letter of the law to the exact word?


OK, following that line of reasoning rolling a right turn on red is the same as first degree murder.


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## Bob Badger

It's amazing to me that I am actually getting a hard time about advocating using the correct products to work with AL NM wiring, which is the wiring method with the worst overall history of safety. One of you actully compared an AL termination with taping a 6 AWG green? Yeah thats the same thing, that green tape starts lots of fires. :no:

Where do AL problems start?

Usually at the terminations.

What am I advocating?

Making those terminations carefully and correctly.

Boy I must be some sort of real asshole. :blink:

Hey you all want to use regular wire nuts on your customers work thats none of my concern. Black4Truck asked how I would do it, I answered, you all can do whatever you want. :whistling2:


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## Shado

Bob...that was the reason why I asked how folks deal with the neutrals in multigang boxes. There may be 6-9 neutrals in there. Would you disturb that wirenut? how would you handle it? Just curious.

Seems to me the only way to deal with that instance is to simply get into it and splice a cu conductor in for no other reason, but to check condition and use a purple wirenut for compliance.:001_huh:


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## 220/221

> again, there is no point in continuing with this because no matter what i say, you will continue to ignore the NEC code on the basis that you think you know better than the code...


So....what you are saying (by not saying) is that you "ignore" the NEC in some cases but you are afraid to admit it?



> OK, following that line of reasoning rolling a right turn on red is the same as first degree murder.


If your arguement is strictly "it's against the law", then yes.

Even first degree murder can be justified. 

Whaaaat? Did he really say that?

You walk in right after someone has broken into your house and butchered your entire family including your 3 beautiful young children. You see him standing there, unarmed, high as he can get, covered with blood. You get your handgun and he laughs at you, arms in a surrender position, saying "You can't shoot me, I am unarmed".

I know it's a stretch but i'm trying to make a point. Everything is open to interpetation. I would be guilty of murder when I emptied my weapon into his lifeless body but in my mind, it's OK.

Here's one that's less of a stretch. If our military shoots down a hijacked plane, they are executing a plan to kill innocent people (first degree murder).

In all aspects of life we must be able to make decisions based on all the information that is available. Sometimes it a good idea to violate the law. Most of the time it's not.

Bottom line: It is my opinion that a simple wirenutted connection poses no additional threat from AL wiring. This will be my opinion until it changes. It won't change simply because of hsyteria. It certainly won't change because a group of lawyers. 

I would gladly take *actual* *evidence* into consideration. Pictures of burned connections on an internet site that sells AL wiring solutions aint gonna do it. I can post pics of burned up copper splice connections all day long.


I need a job :laughing:


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## BadSplice

Bob Badger said:


> OK, following that line of reasoning rolling a right turn on red is the same as first degree murder.


No, that's bull****, I never said anything like that.

I clearly explained that in the part of my post that you conveniently did not quote.

Is this why everyone picks on you??


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## BadSplice

Bob Badger said:


> Oh I speed, don't know where you got the impression I do not.


So Mr. Perfect speeds. Do you weave in and out of traffic? Do you drive after 2 beers? 3 beers? 

Since you admit that you break the law, where do you put the line? How far do you go to break the law? What broken law is "ok" in your opinion? And why is your decision better than someone else's?


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## 220/221

Where do AL problems start?

*At the same place copper connections fail*

Usually at the terminations.





> What am I advocating?
> 
> Making those terminations carefully and *correctly*.


 
That's the same thing I am advocating.

Key word *correctly.* You are advocating making them using a *listed method* and trusting the listing agent to know the *only* correct way.


BTW, back in the 70's, the wire *was* listed (by the same agency) along with the wire nuts. 




> Boy I must be some sort of real asshole. :blink:


:whistling2:


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## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> It's amazing to me that I am actually getting a hard time about advocating using the correct products to work with AL NM wiring


I'm not trying to give you a hard time :no:

I was only joking about the side jobs, speeding, and taxes :whistling2:

You really are a sensitive guy :laughing:


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## mikheil

220/221 said:


> *So....what you are saying (by not saying) is that you "ignore" the NEC in some cases but you are afraid to admit it?
> *
> 
> 
> If your arguement is strictly "it's against the law", then yes.
> 
> Even first degree murder can be justified.
> 
> Whaaaat? Did he really say that?
> 
> You walk in right after someone has broken into your house and butchered your entire family including your 3 beautiful young children. You see him standing there, unarmed, high as he can get, covered with blood. You get your handgun and he laughs at you, arms in a surrender position, saying "You can't shoot me, I am unarmed".
> 
> I know it's a stretch but i'm trying to make a point. Everything is open to interpetation. I would be guilty of murder when I emptied my weapon into his lifeless body but in my mind, it's OK.
> 
> Here's one that's less of a stretch. If our military shoots down a hijacked plane, they are executing a plan to kill innocent people (first degree murder).
> 
> In all aspects of life we must be able to make decisions based on all the information that is available. Sometimes it a good idea to violate the law. Most of the time it's not.
> 
> Bottom line: It is my opinion that a simple wirenutted connection poses no additional threat from AL wiring. This will be my opinion until it changes. It won't change simply because of hsyteria. It certainly won't change because a group of lawyers.
> 
> I would gladly take *actual* *evidence* into consideration. Pictures of burned connections on an internet site that sells AL wiring solutions aint gonna do it. I can post pics of burned up copper splice connections all day long.
> 
> 
> I need a job :laughing:


dude, seriously... whatever.. 

you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers that created the useless NEC code.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

> you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers that created the useless NEC code.


Pretty much.


----------



## RePhase277

mikheil said:


> dude, seriously... whatever..
> 
> you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers that created the useless NEC code.


There are plenty of examples where a guy in the field has had to engineer a solution to a particular problem that wasn't exactly Code compliant, yet was safe. What we can do is TRY to follow the Code the best we can, but we should recognize that it is NOT the gospel. Engineers and lawyers don't know d!ck about electrical work.


----------



## BadSplice

mikheil said:


> dude, seriously... whatever..
> 
> you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers that created the useless NEC code.


You are being extremely self righteous. You've been asked multiple times by multiple people, yet you refuse to answer. I'll give it a try, *have you ever broken the code in any way?*

If you have, why was it ok for you to do it, but not for him?


----------



## mikheil

BadSplice said:


> You are being extremely self righteous. You've been asked multiple times by multiple people, yet you refuse to answer. I'll give it a try, *have you ever broken the code in any way?*
> 
> If you have, why was it ok for you to do it, but not for him?


oh i'm sure i have broken the code many times. do you think I'm a NEC guru and that I know its 1000 pages by heart??

besides, i haven't always had the knowledge and experience I have now. like you and everyone else, I once was a clueless electrician apprentice that didn't know sh.t and would make all kinds of stupid and dangerous mistakes.

but you are missing the point, everybody, including me, has broken the code more than once, and everybody (i hope) learns from their mistakes and tries to improve job after job. but what i find extremely unprofessional is *for someone, knowingly, intentionally and/or even mallisciously to repeatedly bypass the rules just because in his mind, his job techniques are 'safe enough' for him and uses that as his day to day practice.*

regular nuts for Al splicing were ok back in the 70's when we didn't know better! but the code evolves year after year for a reason.. and people's practice is supposed to evolve as well! if your practice is already fossilized and stuck back in the 70's, then what are you going to do....


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> You really are a sensitive guy :laughing:


It was a crappy day.


----------



## Bob Badger

BadSplice said:


> So Mr. Perfect speeds. Do you weave in and out of traffic? Do you drive after 2 beers? 3 beers?
> 
> Since you admit that you break the law, where do you put the line? How far do you go to break the law? What broken law is "ok" in your opinion? And why is your decision better than someone else's?


FNG, I have about 35,000 posts on electrical forums, you will not find one where I have ever said that I have never broken an NEC requirement.

But the heck with you, I am not going to feel bad because I feel that terminating AL should be done correctly with the products listed for doing so.:thumbsup:

You want to hack and be proud of it who am I to stop you.


----------



## Bob Badger

220/221 said:


> That's the same thing I am advocating.
> 
> Key word *correctly.* You are advocating making them using a *listed method* and trusting the listing agent to know the *only* correct way.


If your not using the right products it is not 'correct'. :no:




> BTW, back in the 70's, the wire was listed (by the same agency) along with the wire nuts.


Yes, very true, now it's 2009 and the rules have changed.


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> There are plenty of examples where a guy in the field has had to engineer a solution to a particular problem that wasn't exactly Code compliant, yet was safe. What we can do is TRY to follow the Code the best we can, but we should recognize that it is NOT the gospel. Engineers and lawyers don't know d!ck about electrical work.


You guys should really look into who writes the code.

Yes, there are engineers involved, but there are also regular electricians on the CMPs. As far as code proposals anyone of you can submit one. Many members over at MHs have submitted code proposals that have been accepted.

I can think at least four guys of the top of my head and none of them are engineers or lawyers.


----------



## macmikeman

Here is the reason for the use of listed wirenuts for al connections way out there on planet macmikeman. Liability. The citizens of planet macmikeman do not want to have future retirement plans disrupted by unnecessary court proceedings concerning that plain jane old wire nut that got put on to an alum connection that some attorney's sniffer dogs tracked down to me after some fire. Other types of violations may not get such careful attention paid to them if they cause a catastrophe, but in a dwelling that has alum wiring and has a fire, ambulance chasers come running in droves, trust me on this, my neighborhood was mostly wired with alum romex when it was created by Mr Henry Kaiser back in the seventies, and I have seen such things go down around here. I've seen two ec's get wiped out by court proceedings on this mistake. Another bad idea is to forgo proper wiring on swimming pools and later somebody gets electrocuted. That also tends to bring on swift attention from the boys in the suits.... If you want to express your freedom, stick to stapleing romex 9" away from single gang boxes. Bundle some wire runs in a house, that won't ever be a problem, rebel that way, but use listed wirenuts if you must splice to aluminum.


----------



## macmikeman

Bob Badger said:


> I have not done a side job in years, I turn them away, not interested.


I know a few guys who think like you do on this Bob, and they seem to me to be pretty content in life. Its a good choice you make.


----------



## 220/221

> you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers


I'm glad we finally see eye to eye :thumbup:


Generally, lawyers are a plague and engineers should get out from behind their desks occaisionally. :thumbup:




> If your not using the right products it is not 'correct'


That's *your opinion* based on what *you beleve* to be true.

My opinion is different based on what I beleve to be true.

It's as simple as that.


There was a discussion a couple days ago at MH where an inspector turned down mud rings for phone/data teminations. He believed they were not listed for such a purpose and insisted the contractor use the *right products.*

There is a discussion every few months about using a rigid coupling to make conduit to flex adapters. There will always be zealots who use listing as their only criteria. I am not one of them.

I would bet that I have seen first hand, as much or more existing AL work than anyone involved in the listing procedure. The failures I have seen that can be attributed specifically to a wirenut are zero. That means the successful splices I have seen are at 100%.

My point has always been, if the *wirenuts* are an issue, why don't they *all* fail or why don't a greater percentage of them fail? Why is one jbox different from all the rest?

Nobody has had an answer for that one.

I love the AL debate !


----------



## mikheil

220/221 said:


> *I'm glad we finally see eye to eye *:thumbup:
> 
> 
> Generally, lawyers are a plague and engineers should get out from behind their desks occaisionally. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's *your opinion* based on what *you beleve* to be true.
> 
> My opinion is different based on what I beleve to be true.
> 
> It's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> There was a discussion a couple days ago at MH where an inspector turned down mud rings for phone/data teminations. He believed they were not listed for such a purpose and insisted the contractor use the *right products.*
> 
> There is a discussion every few months about using a rigid coupling to make conduit to flex adapters. There will always be zealots who use listing as their only criteria. I am not one of them.
> 
> I would bet that I have seen first hand, as much or more existing AL work than anyone involved in the listing procedure. The failures I have seen that can be attributed specifically to a wirenut are zero. That means the successful splices I have seen are at 100%.
> 
> *My point has always been, if the wirenuts are an issue, why don't they all fail or why don't a greater percentage of them fail? Why is one jbox different from all the rest?
> 
> Nobody has had an answer for that one.*
> 
> I love the AL debate !


you got it!! keep living in your bubble!

besides, who cares what you believe.. you are knowingly, intentionally and repeatedly breaking the code because in your bubble you think you are smarter than the NEC and you create your own rules and regulations.

you don't get the point. it doesn't matter if the 10000 incorrect Al splices that you have done in your life haven't failed yet. it will only take 1 failure that causes a fire, kills people for you to get a lawsuit for negligence and go to jail. and not because it is safe or not safe to do what you do, but simply because you didn't follow the code!!

they won't care if you had the best intentions while doing what you believe was right. you simply didn't comply with the current code. that's all they will care for.


----------



## RePhase277

Bob Badger said:


> You guys should really look into who writes the code.
> 
> Yes, there are engineers involved, but there are also regular electricians on the CMPs. As far as code proposals anyone of you can submit one. Many members over at MHs have submitted code proposals that have been accepted.
> 
> I can think at least four guys of the top of my head and none of them are engineers or lawyers.


Why did you quote me on it? I wasn't disagreeing.


----------



## B4T

BadSplice said:


> So Mr. Perfect speeds.


Bob is a very knowledgeable guy and will go out of his way to answer your question. :thumbsup:

You could learn a lot from him if you just change your "attitude" 

One thing he has *never* come off as is Mr. Perfect :no:


----------



## BadSplice

Black4Truck said:


> Bob is a very knowledgeable guy and will go out of his way to answer your question. :thumbsup:
> 
> You could learn a lot from him if you just change your "attitude"
> 
> One thing he has *never* come off as is Mr. Perfect :no:


Bob did *NOT* go out of his way to answer anything. He conveniently left out information and made a completely asinine post.

I don't need to change my attitude in any way, thank you. I did not ask for his information, nor did I ever insinuate that I wanted it. 

And yes, he most certainly did come off as Mr. Perfect with his holier than thou attitude towards the other members here, I just called it like I saw it. And I am going to call the same thing about your post. Who are you to tell me that I should be listening to your all-knowing Master? Who are you to tell me that I have a bad attitude? Get off your high horse...


----------



## B4T

You should change your name from BadSplice to BadAttitude :laughing:

Think what you like, the loss is all yours :thumbsup:


----------



## BadSplice

Black4Truck said:


> Think what you like, the loss is all yours :thumbsup:


Ohhh jeeze, what a Drama Queen!


----------



## B4T

I never argue with assholes over the Internet :thumbsup:


----------



## BadSplice

Black4Truck said:


> I never argue with assholes over the Internet :thumbsup:


Awwwww, poor baby. Don't worry, your posts show your age, maturity level, and intelligence quite well. 

Anything else you want to add? :thumbsup:


----------



## partimer31

*THIS THREAD IS CLOSED*. The author has all the facts he need. :thumbsup:




Many thanks, to all who took the time, to Post replies.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

closed huh???:whistling2:


----------



## Bob Badger

InPhase277 said:


> Why did you quote me on it? I wasn't disagreeing.


I must have misunderstood you.


----------



## Bob Badger

BadSplice said:


> Awwwww, poor baby. Don't worry, your posts show your age, maturity level, and intelligence quite well.


Yeah, your right, you are much more mature then the rest of us, your posts make that very clear. :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

220/221 said:


> That's *your opinion* based on what *you believe* to be true.


Are you an electrician?

Yes or No?

*Yes* (I assume this to be a fact) 

Is the area you work in subject to the NEC?

Yes or No?

*Yes* 

Does the NEC require the correct use of listed products?

Yes or No?

*Yes.* (This is a fact found in 110.3(B)

Are you using listed products as required?

Yes or No? 

*No* (This is a fact based on your own posts.)

So it is a fact you are not making your terminations correctly. 



> My opinion is different based on what I believe to be true.


So if your opinion was that Micheal Jackson was still alive that would also be correct? :laughing:



> There was a discussion a couple days ago at MH where an inspector turned down mud rings for phone/data terminations. He believed they were not listed for such a purpose and insisted the contractor use the *right products.*


I know, and that inspector was wrong, there is nothing in the listing to back that up. There is plenty to back up the listing and listing requirements of terminations.



> The failures I have seen that can be attributed specifically to a wirenut are zero. That means the successful splices I have seen are at 100%.


What you or I have seen _means nothing, nothing at all_

Handymen or DIYs always think they have a better way of doing things as well and many times they actually work ....... it does not make it right.


But we will never agree and we do not have to, your the boss where you are and I don;t work for you so we can live and let live.


----------



## mikheil

Bob Badger said:


> Are you an electrician?
> 
> Yes or No?
> 
> *Yes* (I assume this to be a fact)
> 
> Is the area you work in subject to the NEC?
> 
> Yes or No?
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> Does the NEC require the correct use of listed products?
> 
> Yes or No?
> 
> *Yes.* (This is a fact found in 110.3(B)
> 
> Are you using listed products as required?
> 
> Yes or No?
> 
> *No* (This is a fact based on your own posts.)
> 
> So it is a fact you are not making your terminations correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> So if your opinion was that Micheal Jackson was still alive that would also be correct? :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, and that inspector was wrong, there is nothing in the listing to back that up. There is plenty to back up the listing and listing requirements of terminations.
> 
> 
> 
> What you or I have seen _means nothing, nothing at all_
> 
> Handymen or DIYs always think they have a better way of doing things as well and many times they actually work ....... it does not make it right.
> 
> 
> But we will never agree and we do not have to, your the boss where you are and I don;t work for you so we can live and let live.


you wrapped it up pretty well.

we may just be talking to a handyman that has no clue of what the NEC code is. I feel sorry for his customers.


----------



## Bob Badger

mikheil said:


> you wrapped it up pretty well.


Thanks.



> we may just be talking to a handyman that has no clue of what the NEC code is. I feel sorry for his customers.


He is not just a handyman and that is not what I was trying to say, as much as I disagree with 220/221 about this subject he is a sharp guy and does some nice work ........ he also has trucks for his guys that make me jealous.

He is right in the fact that we all choose to leave some NEC violations at some point (even you) for instance I do commonly re-identify conductors smaller than what the NEC allows we just have different ideas of where to draw the line.

For myself I would not be willing to push things with the AL terminations and it really surprises me that any one is willing to roll the dice with AL due to the high liability you would be under.


----------



## BadSplice

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, your right, you are much more mature then the rest of us, your posts make that very clear. :laughing:


your = you're
then = than


----------



## NolaTigaBait

mikheil said:


> you wrapped it up pretty well.
> 
> we may just be talking to a handyman that has no clue of what the NEC code is. I feel sorry for his customers.


Ever seen some of the pics of his work?...It's pretty clean looking.


----------



## B4T

220/221 has 30+ years of experience and has posted plenty of pics to back it up :thumbsup:

He is not a hack or a "handy man" and has done jobs most of us would not want to attempt 

Everyone here has their own views of what code articles a job should conform too.. right or wrong 

How many here have buried a splice box inside the walls??? 

I have, because HO would not want $2000.00 in damages to run new wires :blink:

Home Improvement contractors who "don't need an electrician" do it all the time 

I personally would never use standard wire nuts for a pig tailing job because of all the liability issues :no:

I would and did use Ideal Purple wire nuts on AL/AL connections

I also put all circuits on AFCI breakers to minimize what splice boxes might be hidden inside the walls, ceilings, and attic


----------



## Bob Badger

BadSplice said:


> your = you're
> then = than




What has two thumbs and does not give a crap?









Me. :laughing:


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> What has two thumbs and does not give a crap?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me. :laughing:


:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## 220/221

Hi everybody 





> we just have different ideas of where to draw the line.


:thumbup:


----------



## pauliez3

There is a community of condos (over 150 owners) in CT where they are all Aluminum wiring. The issue just found out is the insurance company will not insure them anymore until the wiring is either replaced or copallum. The condo owners are now paying for new roads and they have to update the roofs due to major water issues throughout (they are flat roofs). They are already loaded with expenses right now. They are being told that there are approx. 6 electricians who do the copallum in CT. Is this true? Also, what is the best electrical solution for the community cost wise?

Thanks,

Paul


----------



## B4T

Welcome to the forum

Why not use Ideal Purple wire nuts.. much easier :thumbsup:


----------



## Jim Port

Why not shop around for different insurance coverage?


----------



## macmikeman

Why not make sure all devices are rated for cu/al, and forget the pigtails in the first place? Then get another insurance policy. Changes to an existing al system such as adding copal pigtails is way more dangerous than leaving it alone in the first place....


----------



## MarkyMark

pauliez3 said:


> The issue just found out is the insurance company will not insure them anymore until the wiring is either replaced or copallum. l


Amp / Tyco has sure done a good job of spamming the internet with the notion that their overpriced proprietary crimp solution is the only option with aluminum wiring.


----------



## partimer31

final, someone who is not afraid to speak his mind. :thumbsup:


----------



## B4T

macmikeman said:


> Why not make sure all devices are rated for cu/al, and forget the pigtails in the first place? Then get another insurance policy. Changes to an existing al system such as adding copal pigtails is way more dangerous than leaving it alone in the first place....


Only problem is what do you do if the wires are really short. :blink:

If you pig tail with Ideal Purple wire nuts, you can use *any *devise you like :thumbsup:

Do they even make a GFI that has terminals rated for AL wire??? :no:


----------



## 220/221

> If you pig tail with Ideal Purple wire nuts, you can use *any *devise you like


 
That's my line of reasoning.

I have one coming up next week. It's a typical small kitchen remodel but I noticed 1970's AL romex. I then looked around and saw that all the devices were not stock. I pulled a couple out and sure as sh!t they wrapped the terminals on copper devices.

I gave him a quote to pigtail everything with purple nuts.:jester:


----------



## RIVETER

*aluminum to copper*

I have used copper-tails, but only for terminations.


----------



## B4T

RIVETER said:


> I have used copper-tails, but only for terminations.


If it was connected to AL.. you need to use Ideal Purple wire nuts or any approved connector


----------



## RIVETER

*aluminum to copper*



Black4Truck said:


> If it was connected to AL.. you need to use Ideal Purple wire nuts or any approved connector


I don't remember the manufacturer, but they were straight
thru butt splices with oxide inhibitors in the aluminum side. The insulation, which I did not like was kind of like ARMAFLEX, too soft.


----------



## B4T

RIVETER said:


> I don't remember the manufacturer, but they were straight
> thru butt splices with oxide inhibitors in the aluminum side. The insulation, which I did not like was kind of like ARMAFLEX, too soft.


Never heard of them and I have been around the block about a dozen times looking for a UL approved device for AL - CU wire


----------



## RIVETER

*aluminum to copper*



Black4Truck said:


> Never heard of them and I have been around the block about a dozen times looking for a UL approved device for AL - CU wire


That is understandable...I went around thirteen times before I found them.


----------



## idontknow

Ooh ooh I want to post on the resurrected old dead thread.

Care to dig it up and tell us? You're the only person who has seen these, so I'd hope you are just rousing us up before finally divulging what you've known all along. You sly devil you. Otherwise you didn't really add anything new to the conversation that everyone else didn't know.

Answers damnit! I want answers! DO I HAVE TO START USING CAPS LOCK?


----------



## Old Spark

Thanks Partimer31. That web site is the best training manual I've ever seen on how the deal with the aluminum wiring problems of mobile homes. I don't do residential anymore, but use to. I used the de-ox when I connected copper pigtails, I'd have loved to know how to do it correctly. On my mom's home, I replaced all the aluminum with copper all the plugs because my repair failed again. I don't want to be responsible for burning down someones home because I tried to repair aluminum wiring that was going bad.
David Channel SSE


----------



## MarkyMark

Since someone already dragged this old thread up again anyway, I have a few other tips for aluminum wiring.

The Ideal 65's are NOT rated for Al to Al, only Al to Cu.

The Lowe's nearby me also stocks the CU/ALR devices now. Leviton is the most widely available manufacturer. P&S doesn't want the liability apparantly. 

I've used the Alumiconn lugs, and they are pretty easy to work with. The CPSA (the organization mentioned in all the Copalum-centric websites) is in the process of listing them as an approved method. They are already UL approved. Price-wise and time-wise they are similar to the purple Ideal 65's.

In EVERY house I've seen with aluminum wiring, there has been heat damage to the wire or cable in at least one bathroom receptacle. The load from a hair dryer is probably the worst possible thing you can put on an aluminum circuit. Kitchen receptacles often show heat damage as well. Lighting circuits almost never. The heat damage often extends far past the box down the cable, in which case pigtailing is no longer an option.

I've done quite a few aluminum wiring abatements or partial abatements with pigtailing, and have done quite a bit of research into aluminum wiring in general lately. I am working on a blog detailing my research and experience with aluminum wiring, and if anyone wants, I can PM them the link to it as soon as I'm done.


----------



## B4T

MarkyMark said:


> The Ideal 65's are NOT rated for Al to Al, only Al to Cu, but the Marette 63's ARE rated for Al to Al, and are fairly cheap comparatively. These are the same small black wire nuts you see in existing aluminum installations. I've occaisionally seen them at Lowe's. Many supply houses have them as well.


I could not find any info about "Marette" being UL approved :blink:

Only place who carries them according to my supply house is Canada because they are approved only there

http://www.tnb-canada.com/en/catalogues/online/comresconstruction/pdf/c5/09_marrcat_e.pdf


----------



## MarkyMark

Black4Truck said:


> I could not find any info about "Marette" being UL approved :blink:
> 
> Only place who carries them according to my supply house is Canada because they are approved only there
> 
> http://www.tnb-canada.com/en/catalogues/online/comresconstruction/pdf/c5/09_marrcat_e.pdf


I stand corrected sir. Marette 63's are not UL listed. I will edit the previous post.


----------



## cdnelectrician

I may get sh!t on for saying this, but the odd time I have come across aluminum wiring in buildings (yes aluminum single strand UGH) I have used a can twist marrette I filled with no-alox. Saying that, if I had of had proper marrettes for the purpose I would have used them.


----------



## busymnky

Black4Truck said:


> What would you do if it was *your* house?? :blink:
> 
> They don't make a wire nut that is UL approved for AL/AL splices
> 
> My choices are either leave a 40 year old wire nut on the neutrals in a switch or use a Purple
> 
> I don't think that adding a copper element to an AL splice has any mystical powers to make it "approved"
> 
> I am also adding arc fault breakers to all circuits mandated in the NEC :thumbsup:


Didn't mean to ambush you B4T, real bad day that day. My house? Pretty much a concensus of what every one else brought up.
1) Al/Cu rated devices
2) Clean up the makeup, get rid of excess connections and pigtails.
3) I use the alumiconns (tourqed) for al to cu connections.
4) For nuetrals and other al to al connections I use ordinary wire nuts, I dope them with deox because the threads are not alum (why risk corrosion). I replace the old ones, visually inspecting damn near every connection.
5) Don't expect to fly through a house, it's generally a pain in the ass with short cut conductors and undersized grounds wrapped around the cable clamp screw.

Aluminum is a good conductor but you have to get the connections right. In the last few years I've done 90 townhomes pigtail/AFI/service change. The HOA required the work to avoid an insurance rate hike. We lost money because one apprentice drove a ground rod through the laterals and another forgot to plug a freezer back in. About half the units had a 15 amp three wire home run we didn't bid for. No one ended up happy, we finished it because we'd bid it, our estimator ( who found the work) quit months into it. A couple HOs used other electricians, both failed inspection and lost money eventually asking us how to pass and how to make any money.

It came down to money really and the purples are expensive so why waste them? I see them misused all the time like on cu/cu connections in exterior fixtures. $5...10...15...20 LOL.
I have made money at this in the past, but now I hate it and avoid it, hopefully this helps others do better at it.:laughing:


----------



## RMatthis

Black4Truck said:


> What would you do if it was *your* house?? :blink:
> 
> I would use no-ox in regular nuts. That's if it was in my house.


----------



## JBEB

Lots of opinions and experiences with aluminum here. My own experience in my neck of the woods tells me to forget the NEC. The NEC is not wrong but the prevailing authority is the insurance underwriter. At least in Florida your options for correcting aluminum wiring are three as put forth by the insurance companies: (1) rewire entirely in copper. (2)use Alumiconns. (3) use CopAlum compression connectors. In my opinion the CO/ALr devices are remedy enough but the insurance company has decided that the folks at the NEC don't know what they are talking about.

I chose Alumiconns. Check out their youtube video. Kind of bogus. They use what appears to be #14 aluminum in their demo. In reality the wire size is most likely #10 here if it's aluminum. Two #10 romexs in a 2" deep box with three alumiconns. You will not get a device in the box without a wiremold extension. And with that it will be tight. The light fixtures are not so bad because the fixture stuff is usually external to the box. Home Depot has the cheapest prices on Alumiconns at $240 per 100. 

The purple wirenuts are not passable here and are a temporary fix. No permit is required to do this in my neck of the woods so you may get no help from the local inspector.

Finally...the house that I converted showed no ill effects on the aluminum wire even though it was wired 50 years ago with non AL/CU devices except for a bathroom vanity fixture that had six bulbs and was poorly connected. It's not the aluminum that's bad it's the people who install it. Even Alumiconn warns against the misuse of their connectors.

If I could I would use the CO/ALR devices. The NEC approves it but the insurance underwriters are under the influence of non electrical folks.


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## johnfryiv

*aluminum wiere splicing*

I only use listed connectors. It's difficult enough to defend yourself against a lawsuit when you've used a connector in violation of it's listing. I agree some of these things are over priced...probably because of lawsuits. You don't want a fire or electruction with a couple deaths on your conscience, even if you don't get successfully sued. I use the purple ones with the anti-oxidant already in place and the set screw. I also use a calibrated torque screwdriver. Most of this is for my own protection, as I have seen aluminum spliced with wire nuts fifty years ago in perfect shape today. I'm a retired building inspector as well as licensed electrician, and I do a lot of subject maqtter expert testimony for a local attorney. Trust me! Do the job with listed connectors. For what we charge, the cost of the connector is a drop int he bucket.


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## Judoka

B4T said:


> What would you do if it was *your* house?? :blink:
> 
> They don't make a wire nut that is UL approved for AL/AL splices
> 
> My choices are either leave a 40 year old wire nut on the neutrals in a switch or use a Purple
> 
> I don't think that adding a copper element to an AL splice has any mystical powers to make it "approved"
> 
> I am also adding arc fault breakers to all circuits mandated in the NEC :thumbsup:


Marette 63P is, i believe.


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