# 300' 200 amp Residential Underground Service



## matthewvanrossum

Hello first post so take it easy on me ?. I normally do marine Industrial work so my Residential and code experience is limited, but I am building my own house and I'm planning on a 300' 200 amp under ground service. So am I doing this voltage drop calculation right? (This will be in Nova Scotia Canada)

Parallel runs of 250mcm
Table D3 says 3/0 copper is good for 100 amp at 25.1m So 25.1x 2(%) x .95 x (240/120)= 95.38m or 314'. ???

Are so how do you typically make a parcelled termination on a double pole
Breaker. Do you go to a splinter first then feed the breaker with a single conductor?


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## matthewvanrossum

Oops I should have read it before posting. Table D3 says 3/0 copper so I bumped it up 2 sizes for aluminum. And that should say "typically make a parallel termination on a double pole breaker. Do you go to a splitter first "


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## backstay

I don't know about Canada, but I may go to 300 or 350 . I would never put in parallel 250 for a dwelling. There just isn't that much load. I should say I have gone as high as 350.


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## telsa

Start by doing a load calculation.


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## matthewvanrossum

My load calculations are very small like 60 amps. Propane boiler, propane range and propane DHW. But I would like to do 200 amp to leave room for the future. Planning on a garage and maybe a separate wood shop down the road


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## backstay

matthewvanrossum said:


> My load calculations are very small like 60 amps. Propane boiler, propane range and propane DHW. But I would like to do 200 amp to leave room for the future. Planning on a garage and maybe a separate wood shop down the road
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Voltage drop depends on load, 60 amps is probably high. 300 mcm at 60 amps, 300 ft is 1%. 120 amps is 2%. 160 amps is 2.8%


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## matthewvanrossum

backstay said:


> Voltage drop depends on load, 60 amps is probably high.




Yes I know voltage drop depends on load. But what I'm saying is that my current load calculation is 60 amps but I want to size my service for a 200 amp load. So that doesn't have to be replaced when I add a garage and shop. 


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## backstay

matthewvanrossum said:


> Yes I know voltage drop depends on load. But what I'm saying is that my current load calculation is 60 amps but I want to size my service for a 200 amp load. So that doesn't have to be replaced when I add a garage and shop.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I added to my post above. Your connected load can't go over 160 anyway. Here's 300 mcm at 160 amps.


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## telsa

matthewvanrossum said:


> Hello first post so take it easy on me ?. I normally do marine Industrial work so my Residential and code experience is limited, but I am building my own house and I'm planning on a 300' 200 amp under ground service. So am I doing this voltage drop calculation right? (This will be in Nova Scotia Canada)
> 
> Parallel runs of 250mcm
> Table D3 says 3/0 copper is good for 100 amp at 25.1m So 25.1x 2(%) x .95 x (240/120)= 95.38m or 314'. ???
> 
> Are so how do you typically make a parcelled termination on a double pole
> Breaker. Do you go to a splinter first then feed the breaker with a single conductor?


If this is a true Service Lateral, then my Poco would use its standards to determine what wire it, itself, would pull.

If this is a feeder... the ball would be totally in your court.


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## Navyguy

POCO supplied 600 volt feeder to customer owned pad or pole mounted transformer located at or near the house.

For this run I would consider a Central Metering (CM) service also, you could build a little generator shed for your service equipment and future generator and do all your lateral feeds from there. Build your transfer switch into your service design and you are golden.

Cheers
John


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## matthewvanrossum

It will be a pole mounted transformer. I plan to put the meter base on a 6x6 that is close to the pole and then under ground to the house with 2 parallel runs. That leads me to more questions. Would you do 2 parallel runs from the weather heads to the meter base also? I was planning on using ACWU90 for my runs to the house but I could just use pvc conduit from the meter base to weather head. 


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## frenchelectrican

matthewvanrossum said:


> It will be a pole mounted transformer. I plan to put the meter base on a 6x6 that is close to the pole and then under ground to the house with 2 parallel runs. That leads me to more questions. Would you do 2 parallel runs from the weather heads to the meter base also? I was planning on using ACWU90 for my runs to the house but I could just use pvc conduit from the meter base to weather head.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


why two weather heads for that ?? 

really from the transformer to the meter base you only need single weather head and riser .,, just use the common 4/0 or 250mcm conductors that will do it. 

due the voltage at the transfomer is higher on purpose for overcome the voltage drop. ( typically about 245 or so volts ) 

then after the meter going underground.,, Backstay did have good answer there the 300kcm will work just fine for that purpose. it is little cheaper to run 300's then paralled of 4/0's on that distance.


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## Navyguy

You would have to do a cost comparison, but I suspect that the installation of an overhead triplex by the utility (5.5K or 600) to a transformer would be less expensive then running all that large cable from the street.

I just looked at a job where we had to run over 300' from the street to a new warehouse / shop on a farm. In both cases it was less expensive to shoot a line or put in some poles with a utility 600 volt supply and transformer then it was to install the customer owned larger cables to get 200 amps at the panel of the new shop.

The goal is to get the transformer as close to the house (or other loads) so you don't have to deal with the voltage drop. Again in this set-up, I would be recommending a CM service and then feed your loads from there.

Cheers
John


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## matthewvanrossum

backstay said:


> I added to my post above. Your connected load can't go over 160 anyway. Here's 300 mcm at 160 amps.




Why can't my connected load go over 160amps ??


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## Navyguy

matthewvanrossum said:


> It will be a pole mounted transformer. I plan to put the meter base on a 6x6 that is close to the pole and then under ground to the house with 2 parallel runs. That leads me to more questions. Would you do 2 parallel runs from the weather heads to the meter base also? I was planning on using ACWU90 for my runs to the house but I could just use pvc conduit from the meter base to weather head.


If you go with a CM service, the meterbase does not carry the loads, it is feed through a CT on the top of the pole.

Cheers
John


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## frenchelectrican

matthewvanrossum said:


> Why can't my connected load go over 160amps ??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


80% of 200 amp service that what it is called for. 

.80 X 200 = 160 

that the way I did the caluation too I go 80% in most case ( motor load is differnt story )


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## sbrn33

I would just run 350 use and call it good. If you want to overdo it run it in PVC. you are way over thinking this. If you need a generator put it at the house.


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## sbrn33

Navyguy said:


> If you go with a CM service, the meterbase does not carry the loads, it is feed through a CT on the top of the pole.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Why would he even think of ct'ing a 200 or even 400 amp service in this day and age? Do you just want him to spend an extra $500 for no reason? That is just mean.


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## matthewvanrossum

Navyguy said:


> You would have to do a cost comparison, but I suspect that the installation of an overhead triplex by the utility (5.5K or 600) to a transformer would be less expensive then running all that large cable from the street.
> 
> I just looked at a job where we had to run over 300' from the street to a new warehouse / shop on a farm. In both cases it was less expensive to shoot a line or put in some poles with a utility 600 volt supply and transformer then it was to install the customer owned larger cables to get 200 amps at the panel of the new shop.
> 
> The goal is to get the transformer as close to the house (or other loads) so you don't have to deal with the voltage drop. Again in this set-up, I would be recommending a CM service and then feed your loads from there.
> 
> Cheers
> John




It is actually like 900' to the street, but we are coming in 600' with primary poles and then going underground from there. This is for my own personal house and I don't really want the poles to be in view of the house. And I don't want the meter base on the house. POCO says I can't put the meter base on the pole if it has primary lines on it, which it will so that's the reason for the 6x6. 


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## frenchelectrican

sbrn33 said:


> Why would he even think of ct'ing a 200 or even 400 amp service in this day and age? Do you just want him to spend an extra $500 for no reason? That is just mean.


I rather keep it simple and not to add more mess on that..


matthewvanrossum .,, why not ask your hydro if they can translated from overhead riser primary to underground primary latheral and slab up the padmount transfomer closer to your house something like 10 meter away from house and be done with those compaited craps ?


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## Navyguy

sbrn33 said:


> Why would he even think of ct'ing a 200 or even 400 amp service in this day and age? Do you just want him to spend an extra $500 for no reason? That is just mean.


It is a very common set-up here (in Ontario) with acreage properties. The OP stated that this is for a house, but plans on building a wood shop and a garage in the future.

In planning ahead, to me (without seeing a plot plan) it makes more sense to come from a CM service (where the CTs are supplied and maintained by the utility) then it would be to get multiple (potentially large runs) out of an existing residential panel in some basement.

All you would need is a five-jaw meter socket and a piece of 3/4" PVC run up the pole.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy

matthewvanrossum said:


> It is actually like 900' to the street, but we are coming in 600' with primary poles and then going underground from there. This is for my own personal house and I don't really want the poles to be in view of the house. And I don't want the meter base on the house. POCO says I can't put the meter base on the pole if it has primary lines on it, which it will so that's the reason for the 6x6.


I would still see what the delta in price is to shoot a 600 volt line from the 600' mark to a pad mount near the house. Then you could put your meter either on your first 600 volt pole or near your pad transformer on a 6 x 6 as you said.

The utilities are really good around here for that type of thing. They would rather go 100% underground and provide a high voltage transformer near the house, then deal with all the issues of trees and access during storms and such. Most utilities around here will avoid putting in poles if they can.

Cheers
John


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## matthewvanrossum

Navyguy said:


> I would still see what the delta in price is to shoot a 600 volt line from the 600' mark to a pad mount near the house. Then you could put your meter either on your first 600 volt pole or near your pad transformer on a 6 x 6 as you said.
> 
> The utilities are really good around here for that type of thing. They would rather go 100% underground and provide a high voltage transformer near the house, then deal with all the issues of trees and access during storms and such. Most utilities around here will avoid putting in poles if they can.
> 
> Cheers
> John




I see that you said utilities as in more then one. Lol I wish we had that option. The POCO here has a monopoly. I'm not saying they won't want to do it but it they don't then there isn't any other option. 


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## matthewvanrossum

frenchelectrican said:


> 80% of 200 amp service that what it is called for.
> 
> 
> 
> .80 X 200 = 160
> 
> 
> 
> that the way I did the caluation too I go 80% in most case ( motor load is differnt story )




The load for a single dwelling is non continuous so it can be loaded up to 200 amps. 8-200(3)


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## backstay

matthewvanrossum said:


> The load for a single dwelling is non continuous so it can be loaded up to 200 amps. 8-200(3)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We are going off the NEC.


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## Navyguy

matthewvanrossum said:


> I see that you said utilities as in more then one. Lol I wish we had that option. The POCO here has a monopoly. I'm not saying they won't want to do it but it they don't then there isn't any other option.


Agreed. I deal with many municipalities, but they all have a monopoly in that particular city I am working in. In general, all but one are excellent to work with including the big provincial one, Hydro1, which takes care of the a majority of the rural installations.

Cheers
John


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## lighterup

Navyguy said:


> I would still see what the delta in price is to shoot a 600 volt line from the 600' mark to a pad mount near the house. Then you could put your meter either on your first 600 volt pole or near your pad transformer on a 6 x 6 as you said.
> 
> The utilities are really good around here for that type of thing. They would rather go 100% underground and provide a high voltage transformer near the house, then deal with all the issues of trees and access during storms and such. Most utilities around here will avoid putting in poles if they can.
> 
> Cheers
> John


John
Obviously cannot speak for Canada , but here POCO would charge an arm,
a leg and (1) nut to make that underground run and pad mounted transformer.
Here it would be way less expensive to install 350cm for 160 amps @
the 300' linear measurement. Just FYI.


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## Navyguy

@lighterup I am sure that is different around here also. I deal with about 6 different utilities in the immediate area that I work mostly in. It could be different if I went further afield or certainly different in a another province.

I think for us (perhaps more accurately me), if you were going to dig up the ground anyway, I would see what the delta was for the 350Kcmil compared to a 600 volt pad mount transformer and a smaller wire. The cost of digging the ground and putting in the pipe is the same, so if you can offset the cost of the wire and labour to handle the larger size for that distance.

Cheers
John


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## lighterup

Navyguy said:


> @lighterup I am sure that is different around here also. I deal with about 6 different utilities in the immediate area that I work mostly in. It could be different if I went further afield or certainly different in a another province.
> 
> I think for us (perhaps more accurately me), if you were going to dig up the ground anyway, I would see what the delta was for the 350Kcmil compared to a 600 volt pad mount transformer and a smaller wire. The cost of digging the ground and putting in the pipe is the same, so if you can offset the cost of the wire and labour to handle the larger size for that distance.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Here's an example from my area of operation. Last summer I wired
a new home for a customer.
From the meter socket to POCO's pole (about 25' up + leave 5' 
out of weather head on pole) I had a total linear footage of 330' 
of 350cm ALURD , 40' of 3" schedule 80 pvc pipe , weather head 
all associated fittings and red caution tape.
Customer provided trenching and backfilling.
I charged the customer $3,800.00 to do this .

At the original walk through , prior to bidding the job , I made the
same suggestion that you are making. I make this suggestion anytime
there is a long secondary run.

The HO said he would look into it with POCO , but still wanted me to 
include all the above mentioned in my bid just in case.

POCO quoted him to bring primaries underground with 90' of his
house and set a pad mounted transformer...drum roll please....
$15,000.00.

Years ago , deregulation of POCO's industry changed a few things 
on the customer side of this whole industry here.

Back then , EC's were not permitted to go up a pole . we left it coiled 
up at the base of the pole and POCO took it from there.
It was routine to see pad mounted transformers within 90-100' of the
newly built home and to my knowledge was not costly (no one was complaining).

Now POCO expects EC to go up pole within 1' of point of attachment.

Also , their prices went through the roof to install transformers on 
the customers property.( Only rich folks in very large homes seem 
to be doing this now).


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## Navyguy

That is a big difference. Can't imagine what that would be like in $CA 

In general (but not always) the local utilities can do it at a fraction of our cost; they can often put it into their capitol budget spending knowing that anything underground will likely lead to less emergency maintenance in the future.

Like I said, that might change if I went further afield, but around here that is a fairly common thought.

Cheers
John


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## matthewvanrossum

Before I purchased the property I met with the POCO to see what it was going to cost to install poles. I then asked him about going underground from the road up to a pad mount and he just shook his head and laughed and said I don't think you can afford it. It was a while ago but I think he said it was like 10 time the price of going with poles. Around here poles cost $36.29 per meter with the first 92 meters free. 


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## telsa

I know of one fella that was quoted $55,000 to tap into the Poco's distribution.

( Their fee was based upon the size of his lot, not his power demand, BTW. )

He had an unpaved bare lot that parked RV's and trailers... and that's IT.

He merely wanted to power his security gate.

So, he went total solar.

&&&

These fees, at such rates, are really TAXES. The PUC is allowing// commanding the Poco to become an adjunct to the property tax authorities.

&&&

Another example: a 2" commercial Service for water to a restaurant. The fee for the hook-up, and JUST the hook-up and meter: $75,000. That fee didn't pay for an ounce of plumbing... just the permission.

End of story: the client omitted the connection. ( It was intended to be an auxiliary connection. )

The citizenry is not aware of just how vast the tax rake is... now that so much is hidden as 'fees for service.'

You can see this also in the typical cell phone bill, cable TV bill, etc.


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