# Feeder? Service?



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I have come across what I believe to be a violation. But the HO's inspector has approved the installation. 
The HO purchased single to two cable lugs (adapters) for his meter. He has used one set for the house and the other set for an unattached garage. He has also pulled a 3 wire feeder. No disconnect for the feeder or unattached structure. The garage is unattached and he has it connected like a service panel. His inspector has approved it. He is on the 2008 code cycle. Feedback appreciated.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Could be fine, see Exception (3) of 230.40


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

May be legal, but definitely poor form.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I don't see it as poor form at all, it's just not what your used to. It is a cost efficient way to get 'er done.

These are not feeders they are service conductors and as such they would be 3 wire. (This assumes there is no over current protection at the meter.)


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I don't see it as poor form at all, it's just not what your used to. It is a cost efficient way to get 'er done.
> 
> These are not feeders they are service conductors and as such they would be 3 wire. (This assumes there is no over current protection at the meter.)


I do not think that bringing in service conductors to a point where it can have OCP and bringing it further without OCP is good form. It may be practiced elsewhere and it may be cheaper, but if you have the option of OCP I think it should be used. 

But who am I, its just an opinion.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

What about grouping disconnect means


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nolabama said:


> I do not think that bringing in service conductors to a point where it can have OCP and bringing it further without OCP is good form.


Normally you would run one set from the meter directly into the building it's mounted on and a second set of conductors from the meter underground to the detached building. You would not run through one building to supply the other.



> But who am I, its just an opinion.


Did anyone say you cold not have one? 



rewire said:


> What about grouping disconnect means


You do not have to group the service disconnects for separate buildings.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Normally you would run one set from the meter directly into the building it's mounted on and a second set of conductors from the meter underground to the detached building. You would not run through one building to supply the other.
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone say you cold not have one?


If it doesn't pass through the building I can see it being ok.

As for the opinion comment - what I was saying is not based on code - just my opinion


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Single to double lug @ Meter*

I am not sure if I understand. Are you saying that it is a meter with single lugs , the way we normally see it, at the lineside of the meter... and double lugs @ the load side?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am not sure if I understand. Are you saying that it is a meter with single lugs , the way we normally see it, at the top of the meter... and double lugs @ the load side?


You got it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Feeder-Service*



RIVETER said:


> I am not sure if I understand. Are you saying that it is a meter with single lugs , the way we normally see it, at the lineside of the meter... and double lugs @ the load side?


 Okay, if that is the case, I believe that the separate structure (garage), should have a disconnect and the wiring to the separate structure, should be protected( FUSED) for it's ampacity.
I've been away from residential for a while and if there is a different opinion. That is okay.


Just for clarification, Bob Badger had said that the meter I described was correct....and then I responded.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

He's got a disconnect at the detached garage. Right?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I have come across what I believe to be a violation. But the HO's inspector has approved the installation.
> The HO purchased single to two cable lugs (adapters) for his meter. He has used one set for the house and the other set for an unattached garage. He has also pulled a 3 wire feeder.* No disconnect for the feeder or unattached structure. The garage is unattached and he has it connected like a service panel.* His inspector has approved it. He is on the 2008 code cycle. Feedback appreciated.


John, is there a disconnect at the garage? Main breaker in the panel?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*feeder-service*



JohnJ0906 said:


> John, is there a disconnect at the garage? Main breaker in the panel?


 I think that I am thinking along with JohnJ0906...Maybe. My concern would be that if you did not have a fused disconnect...near the meter, the wiring to the separate structure,(garage), would only be protected by whatever the UTILITY had at the service entrance.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

For this to be legal there would have to be overcurrent protection at the detached building.

It would be just another service.




RIVETER said:


> I think that I am thinking along with JohnJ0906...Maybe. My concern would be that if you did not have a fused disconnect...near the meter, the wiring to the separate structure,(garage), would only be protected by whatever the UTILITY had at the service entrance.


Exactly, that would be why the wiring from the meter to the detached building would be kept outside.

This is exactly like having a separate utility supply to each building except it all runs through one meter.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> For this to be legal there would have to be overcurrent protection at the detached building.
> 
> It would be just another service.


Yeah, I'm OK with this scenario, as long as there is OCPD at the garage. It doesn't seem clear to me whether or not there is.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*feeder-service*



Bob Badger said:


> For this to be legal there would have to be overcurrent protection at the detached building.
> 
> It would be just another service.
> 
> ...


 Exactly, and I believe that whether you have one, or three separate buildings fed from one meter, all of the feeders have to have equal size conductors... the size allowed for THAT SIZE SERVICE. If you have a MAJOR fault on any of the three structures, it would be able to trip the overload device at the UTILITY rather than BURN open a conductor somewhere.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I'd like to know if this service to the garage is terminated on the line side or the load side of the first meter or not.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Feeder-service*



Magnettica said:


> I'd like to know if this service to the garage is terminated on the line side or the load side of the first meter or not.


 The utility doesn't like you to terminate a load on the line side.....They are just picky.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I thought service conductor taps were legal to any length outside a building. I would think it would need a disconnect at the building.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Exactly, and I believe that whether you have one, or three separate buildings fed from one meter, all of the feeders have to have equal size conductors... the size allowed for THAT SIZE SERVICE.


There is no truth to that at all and again these are not feeders until they reach a service disconnect.




> If you have a MAJOR fault on any of the three structures, it would be able to trip the overload device at the UTILITY rather than BURN open a conductor somewhere.


You never going to 'trip the overload device at the utility' with a residential service. At best you will burn open a connection between the NEC sized conductors and the smaller utility conductors.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Sorry gentlemen. I just returned. Yes, he does have a disconnect at both the dwelling and unattached structure. The garage feeder/service does not enter/pass through any structure. 
I am glad I asked you guys as I would have expected a disconnect for the garage feeder/service. I guess I was wrong.
Its good to know this though. From now on (AHJ & POCO Approval) I could run an un-fused feeder to an unattached structure from a single meter.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> From now on (AHJ & POCO Approval) I could run an un-fused feeder to an unattached structure from a single meter.


Just don't call it a feeder becuse to the NEC it is not.

It's just service condutors ........ really long service condutors.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Just don't call it a feeder becuse to the NEC it is not.
> 
> It's just service condutors ........ really long service condutors.


Got it Bob, Thanks

Ps......Why then length limits on SE conductors? Because they enter the dwelling or structure?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Servfice conductors/ feeders*



Bob Badger said:


> There is no truth to that at all and again these are not feeders until they reach a service disconnect.Okay, then what protects the WIRES, if underground, or above for that matter, between the meter and the unattached structure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not a lineman but those "trippers" or whatever they are called out side, at the pole that they come to reset...what causes them to trip? I am not dissagreeing, just looking for the correct answer.


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am not a lineman but those "trippers" or whatever they are called out side, at the pole that they come to reset...what causes them to trip? I am not dissagreeing, just looking for the correct answer.


 
Mushrooms ??


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Feeder-service*



Benaround said:


> Mushrooms ??


Okay, that is what i'll call them when some asks " What's that smokin'?"


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Tap rules come to mind too. How far away is the garage?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

rdr said:


> Tap rules come to mind too. How far away is the garage?


Tap rules are for feeders, these are not feeders.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Tap rules are for feeders, these are not feeders.


Somehow I don't think that point is being communicated.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Failure to communicate


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I have come across what I believe to be a violation. But the HO's inspector has approved the installation.
> The HO purchased single to two cable lugs (adapters) for his meter. He has used one set for the house and the other set for an unattached garage. He has also pulled a 3 wire feeder. No disconnect for the feeder or unattached structure. The garage is unattached and he has it connected like a service panel. His inspector has approved it. He is on the 2008 code cycle. Feedback appreciated.


John: 

Please supply some pictures of this installation, or identify the product name and type of meter socket enclosure that we can see by searching for that catalog. You may also want to take a look at NEC Article 312 in the NEC and NECH where wire bending space is covered there.

Also please find any so called adapters that are listed and labeled to be used per 110.3(B) to add another _load side _termination as described. 

I believe that you have discovered something that needs a bit more research and review before accepting this installation.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Joe Tedesco said:


> John:
> 
> Please supply some pictures of this installation, or identify the product name and type of meter socket enclosure that we can see by searching for that catalog. You may also want to take a look at *NEC Article 312 *in the NEC and NECH where wire bending space is covered there.
> 
> ...


You may also want to research 90.2(B)(5) which keeps the NEC out of the meter socket.:whistling2:


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## Joe Tedesco (Mar 25, 2007)

*On another note and with my personal and humbled opinion!*



John Valdes said:


> I have come across what I believe to be a violation. But the HO's inspector has approved the installation.
> The HO purchased single to two cable lugs (adapters) for his meter. He has used one set for the house and the other set for an unattached garage. He has also pulled a 3 wire feeder. No disconnect for the feeder or unattached structure. The garage is unattached and he has it connected like a service panel. His inspector has approved it. He is on the 2008 code cycle. Feedback appreciated.


John:

On another note and with my personal and humbled opinion; the conductors that are passing through the meter socket enclosure from the _line to the load_ shall be considered as SEC's; the meter socket enclosure is only a cash register and these load side SEC's will only become a _feeder_ when they have passed through an OCPD. 

The fact that the conductors you describe are connected in the way you describe makes it crystal clear that they are not feeders! 

Take a look here and pick out the equipment you see for us to be sure of what we are discussing here. :thumbup:

Please tell me where this work was done and what official inspected it so that we can be sure that the person who made this inspection is a _qualified person _who is properly trained and can wear the hat of an AHJ and is not some political hack!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Tap rules are for feeders, these are not feeders.


Hell guys I even understand this difference :thumbup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I have no pictures or any evidence of compliance or non-compliance as I got this question from another forum. I am satisfied with the responses and I will consider this matter finished. Thanks very much to everyone.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Joe Tedesco said:


> John:
> 
> On another note and with my personal and humbled opinion; the conductors that are passing through the meter socket enclosure from the _line to the load_ shall be considered as SEC's; the meter socket enclosure is only a cash register and these load side SEC's will only become a _feeder_ when they have passed through an OCPD.
> 
> ...


Joe. I wanted to PM you, but you do not have that function turned on. Thanks.


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## Old Spark (Nov 18, 2008)

What do you mean you can't tap on the line side. If you tap on the load side it will go thru the meter and you'll have to pay for what you use. That would cost the HO. Tapped to the line side would be free. FREE is better. Until you get caught.
David SSE


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> I have come across what I believe to be a violation. But the HO's inspector has approved the installation.
> The HO purchased single to two cable lugs (adapters) for his meter. He has used one set for the house and the other set for an unattached garage. He has also pulled a 3 wire feeder. No disconnect for the feeder or unattached structure. The garage is unattached and he has it connected like a service panel. His inspector has approved it. He is on the 2008 code cycle. Feedback appreciated.





Bob Badger said:


> Tap rules are for feeders, these are not feeders.





Peter D said:


> Somehow I don't think that point is being communicated.





Bob Badger said:


> Failure to communicate


Am I missing something????:001_huh:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

He doesn't have a feeder. It's service conductors.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

Yeah I just read up on Art 240 again....I was thinking it applied to SE as well, but the OP did say feeders


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am not a lineman but those "trippers" or whatever they are called out side, at the pole that they come to reset...what causes them to trip? I am not dissagreeing, just looking for the correct answer.


 stinger


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> ..Why then length limits on SE conductors? Because they enter the dwelling or structure?


We can run service conductors as far as we want as long as they are consider 'outside' by the NEC. I emphasize outside because 230.6 lists a bunch of conditions where SE conductors are really inside the building but the NEC calls them 'outside'. 

As soon as SE conductors are 'inside' to the NEC they must hit a disconnecting means with overcurrent protection.



RIVETER said:


> I am not a lineman but those "trippers" or whatever they are called out side, at the pole that they come to reset...what causes them to trip? I am not dissagreeing, just looking for the correct answer.


I am not a lineman either and every power company is different so there will be differences from one area to the other.

I call those 'fused cut outs' but in most cases the fuse size selected is much higher than the rating of the transformer. One power company engineer said the company he works for selects a fuse that has a rating that will carry 150% of the transformers rated load current forever. 

The idea here is keeping the power on, about the only thing that will open the fuse is a primary side fault in the transformer. If you short the secondary side most likely the fuse will hold and the power will continue to flow until the conductor melts open. 

The power company is protecting the rest of the grid with those cut outs, not the transformer or the service drops. They don't want a faulted transformer to drop out a large section of high volt distribution.

A very smart old time union guy once put it to me this way.

_'The NEC is concerned with shutting the power off, the NESC* is concerned with keeping the power on.'_

That has stuck with me and made a great deal of sense.



*NESC = National Electrical Safety Code 




> What is NESC?
> The National Electrical Safety Code (NESC®) is the industry-accepted safety standard for overhead and underground electric utility and communications utility installations. Adopted by most states and Public Service Commissions, NESC covers electric supply and communication lines, equipment, and work practices employed by both public and private electric utility installations.



All that said, all power companies are different so keep that in mind as well.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

No a problem at all . Like Bob said they are not feeders

No different then putting 2 - 200 amp panels on a wall and running a 4/0 se out of each to the meter.


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

Never seen a 2nd house pnl tapped off load side of a meter base.Either way anything over 6' from meter has to ocp???


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