# To backstab or not to backstab. That is the question.



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I do not and never will however it is compliant


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I fix backstabbed receptacles. I will not, under any circumstances, backstab a receptacle. You might get by if you pigtail every device but it's not worth the risk.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I am a proud backstabber.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> I am a proud backstabber.


 Oh well!


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Here we go


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Gimme the maint contract, and i'll backstab your mother.....~C:laughing:S~


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Since we can only wire receptacle circuits in #12 now, we do not back stab. Switches are another story. I do not back stab. I do when I install a temp switch but on trim out every device has the conductor under the screw of the device.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Backstabbing is HACK .






Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I wouldn't do it if I were installing the devices but as Dennis pointed out it is an acceptable practice. New homes around my area are 99% back-stabbed devices. I understand the lucrative prospect of profit but I have been called too many times by our fire department to ever do it myself.

Pete


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I do not and never will however it is compliant


Dennis


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Now I will say I backstab devices. We do a boatload of new residential and it saves so much time. I am finding something odd here though. Many of you state that you would never backstab a device, but I believe I have heard most of you guys say that you use wago connectors. Isn't that the exact same thing? :whistling:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

3D Electric said:


> Now I will say I backstab devices. We do a boatload of new residential and it saves so much time. I am finding something odd here though. Many of you state that you would never backstab a device, but I believe I have heard most of you guys say that you use wago connectors. Isn't that the exact same thing? :whistling:


I would agree that wago's are essentially no different as far as I know. And, FWIW I wouldn't use those either.:no:

Pete


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## knothole (Mar 10, 2007)

Yeah keep stabbing in the back and I'll keep fixing them....lol.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most manufactured homes are BS, self contained devicing

so, we (as a trade) can do no wrong in comparison....

~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Pete m. said:


> I wouldn't do it if I were installing the devices but as Dennis pointed out it is an acceptable practice. New homes around my area are 99% back-stabbed devices. I understand the lucrative prospect of profit but I have been called too many times by our fire department to ever do it myself.
> 
> Pete


You have been called out to actual fires caused by backstabbing?


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

No supply houses here handle backstabbing devices been along time since I saw one.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> You have been called out to actual fires caused by backstabbing?



Yes i have

~CS~


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Backstabbing is total crap. I never do it and it shouldn't be done.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I've never seen a house burn down but I've seen it blacken the wall about the recept. Plug a 1500 watt heater in on the end of the string and wait for it to happen.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

There is a reason that spec grade plugs dont come with backstabb holes. It is not as good a connection as using the screws.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> You have been called out to actual fires caused by backstabbing?


Yes I have. None of them were very extensive but there have been fires caused. Most of the culprits were space heaters.

Pete


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Yea, me too. Been called out to a few bad screw connections also.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Back stabbing should not even be a consideration. Spending time on a UK forum I can honestly say American electricians are arsonists.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> Yes I have. None of them were very extensive but there have been fires caused. Most of the culprits were space heaters.
> 
> Pete


I would do anything to them eradicated. Building sparkies always say well I never have a problem with them... but if you do service calls those same devices 20 years latter are another story.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

meadow said:


> Back stabbing should not even be a consideration. Spending time on a UK forum I can honestly say American electricians are arsonists.



That made me lol


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

meadow said:


> Back stabbing should not even be a consideration. Spending time on a UK forum I can honestly say American electricians are arsonists.


Highly trained arsonists! :thumbsup:


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

Everyone in the company i work for, along with myself, backstab outlets and haven't had any issues yet. And we're doing quite well for ourselves.

My boss' company has been in business since 70 something and never had a fire due to backstabbing.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> That made me lol


:laughing: Trust me, back stabbing getting kicked out of our trade would be nice. 





3D Electric said:


> Highly trained arsonists! :thumbsup:


:laughing:







The_kid said:


> Everyone in the company i work for, along with myself, backstab outlets and haven't had any issues yet. And we're doing quite well for ourselves.
> 
> My boss' company has been in business since 70 something and never had a fire due to backstabbing.



How can you be so sure? If something does happen, or one fails, do you get a memo?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I never use backstab terminals. 

When I was an apprentice I worked for an EC that wired new homes exclusively, and I backstabbed every device I installed (#12 excluded, of course). 

It seems to depend on the market you're in. New homes/condos/apartments = backstab. Anything else where quality matters = side terminals.


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## JoeCav91 (Sep 15, 2014)

No back stabbing on devices. We don't even use the wagos in cans most of the time.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

The_kid said:


> Everyone in the company i work for, along with myself, backstab outlets and haven't had any issues yet. And we're doing quite well for ourselves.
> 
> My boss' company has been in business since 70 something and never had a fire due to backstabbing.


I thought NY didn't allow #14 AWG, only #12 for branch circuits. You can't use #12 on back stabbed devices. The hole won't take anything larger than #14.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> I thought NY didn't allow #14 AWG, only #12 for branch circuits. You can't use #12 on back stabbed devices. The hole won't take anything larger than #14.


Weren't 14 gauge lighting circuits mandatory in NYC?


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

This was in the past week.
See it all the time with copper too.
Generally a lot worse. With the wires nice and crispy or the occasional melted receptacle. 
In fact today when tearing out devices in a slab apartment rebuild we found 2 out of 16 backstabbed devices where some of the wires just popped right out. 

:ban:backstabbing.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

daks said:


> This was in the past week.
> See it all the time with copper too.
> Generally a lot worse. With the wires nice and crispy or the occasional melted receptacle.
> In fact today when tearing out devices in a slab apartment rebuild we found 2 out of 16 backstabbed devices where some of the wires just popped right out.
> ...


I will admit that I have seen that before. I will also say I have seen that exact same thing with screw terminated wires. I am not saying backstabbing the recept is the most amazing thing in the world. I am saying it is a time saving method, the same as wago connectors.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I bet those that originally wired them are still like "been backstabbing for 50 years, not one got crispy"


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

3D Electric said:


> I will admit that I have seen that before. I will also say I have seen that exact same thing with screw terminated wires. I am not saying backstabbing the recept is the most amazing thing in the world. I am saying it is a time saving method, the same as wago connectors.


Wagos make more intimate contact with wire much like a screw pressure plate, but a back stab is just a single metal tong pushing on the conductor.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

meadow said:


> Weren't 14 gauge lighting circuits mandatory in NYC?


I don't know. I was just going by what has been said here before about NY requiring minimum #12. But that could be just receptacles.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> I wouldn't do it if I were installing the devices but as Dennis pointed out it is an acceptable practice. New homes around my area are 99% back-stabbed devices. I understand the lucrative prospect of profit but I have been called too many times by our fire department to ever do it myself.
> 
> Pete




What does the fire department have to say about this issue?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> I don't know. I was just going by what has been said here before about NY requiring minimum #12. But that could be just receptacles.


I still think NY allows for 14 in resi... but an NYC expert would need to comment.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

pete87 said:


> Backstabbing is HACK .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I'm a hack. The house I live in was built in 1980 and the receptacles were backstabbed. In 2012 I remodeled the place (new floors, kit cabinets, painted the whole inside) and part of what I did was to replace all the receptacles since they were over 30 years old. I have never replaced any devices in this house other than when I replaced them all (I've lived here since 1998).


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

daks said:


> View attachment 41650
> 
> 
> This was in the past week.
> ...


That picture doesn't count, aluminum. So it's at least a #12 and those receptacles are not listed for aluminum AND they are not listed for #12.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Interesting that someone would rope a house but would be too aware of a quality installation to backstabbing a device.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Before the advent of 110.14, came the US Dept of Standards study on Glowing connections 




> Glowing electrical connections may dissipate as much as 35 watts of power with a
> current of 15 amps in the circuit and as much as 5 watts with a current of 0.8 amp in the
> circuit. Temperatures over 750°F were measured on the "break-off tab" of receptacles. Metal
> outlet boxes housing glowing connections in an insulated wall test set-up representative of
> ...


we can add afci's to the above now.....

also, for you _'daisychainers'_ note the breakoff tab temps

of particular interest is the VD study findings>>>>_{pg. 16}_



> TABLE 1, TYPICAL *GOOD* CONNECTIONS
> Power Dissipated (Milliwatts)
> 80-200
> 45-120
> ...


So all install methodology and associated chinese commodities aside , the bottom line is VD elicits the presence of high R terminations

In the resi scene _(which i'm doomed to for the remainder of my career)_ we use this meter _(one of many marketed)_ >>>










~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> I thought NY didn't allow #14 AWG, only #12 for branch circuits. You can't use #12 on back stabbed devices. The hole won't take anything larger than #14.


You have to think outside of the box.
I found about 10 of these in a friends condo.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/memb...s/job-pics/2645-yup-jammed-into-release-hole/


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

Never back stab, should not be allowed, I also think 14-2 romex should not be allowed but that is another conversation/ argument


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Question for our foreign contingent

We are _allowed_ to daisychain #14 through_ backstabbing_ from sea to freakin' shining sea _(local revisions aside) _ 

Are we alone?

~CS~


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I guess I'm a hack. The house I live in was built in 1980 and the receptacles were backstabbed. In 2012 I remodeled the place (new floors, kit cabinets, painted the whole inside) and part of what I did was to replace all the receptacles since they were over 30 years old. I have never replaced any devices in this house other than when I replaced them all (I've lived here since 1998).


Try moving up North to the land of 1500 watt heaters plugged into cheap 15 amp resi recepts.:thumbup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Interesting that someone would rope a house but would be too aware of a quality installation to backstabbing a device.


Are you saying romex is crap or something?

I dont backstab. I use the side screws and feed through devices. Its how I was taught.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Clarky said:


> Never back stab, should not be allowed, I also think 14-2 romex should not be allowed but that is another conversation/ argument


14/2 romex is wrong because...?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

AK_sparky said:


> 14/2 romex is wrong because...?


Gotta love the "#12 everywhere" guys. Its not based on logic, just emotion. Kinda like running conduit through a house instead of romex. I only use #12 in houses where its required and when rewiring old houses with crap insulation. I can just see the space heaters and window ACs going in every room. Im new construction or major reno? #12 only where required and #14 everywhere else.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Gotta love the "#12 everywhere" guys. Its not based on logic, just emotion. Kinda like running conduit through a house instead of romex. I only use #12 in houses where its required and when rewiring old houses with crap insulation. I can just see the space heaters and window ACs going in every room. Im new construction or major reno? #12 only where required and #14 everywhere else.


Preach my brother, preach! :jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good 'terminations' make us smile.....










~C:jester:S~


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> I thought NY didn't allow #14 AWG, only #12 for branch circuits. You can't use #12 on back stabbed devices. The hole won't take anything larger than #14.


That's only in NYC. Long Island (Nassau & Suffolk counties) are under the NEC with only a few towns and villages that have local amendments to the NEC.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

meadow said:


> Weren't 14 gauge lighting circuits mandatory in NYC?


No, 15 amp maximum, #12 awg minimum.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Gotta love the "#12 everywhere" guys. Its not based on logic, just emotion. Kinda like running conduit through a house instead of romex. I only use #12 in houses where its required and when rewiring old houses with crap insulation. I can just see the space heaters and window ACs going in every room. Im new construction or major reno? #12 only where required and #14 everywhere else.


Explain the "it's not based on logic" remark. I wire all my houses with #12 to most wall outlets and #14 to lighting outlets. If I was trying to get the low bid, I might consider doing more "code minimum" things like #14 to bedroom recepts etc. As it is, I seldom to never bid against anyone else so I'm left to wire at my own discretion. I usually run at least 4 SABC to the kitchen counter and a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator, microwave etc. I also install almost exclusively QO. If I was competing, I might consider Homeline. How much savings are you going to get in an average house by running all 14-2 ? Not a lot. I also question how much faster it is to backstab versus screw terminal. If you figured a 1 minute savings per recept, and your house had 80 recepts, That's an 80 minute savings. Not a whole lot of money. That's assuming that you have no more than 2 romex in each box. If you have more than 2, you're going to be pigtailing anyway.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

There's a _'#14 s&cks'_ camp that's been alive and well since i can remember Wendon

Doesn't make 'em bad sparkies, but it does make their box fills suspect....:whistling2:

~CS~


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## The_kid (Nov 4, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> That's only in NYC. Long Island (Nassau & Suffolk counties) are under the NEC with only a few towns and villages that have local amendments to the NEC.



Yes exactly. The only town in Nassau that uses the 12g branch circuit rule is Valley Stream if i remember correctly. 

Everywhere else is 14. Which i happily backstab


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Is it just me or does anybody else think chicken ****s comments are pretty much a waste of time? I have no prejudices about gay people but his posts are just dumb.


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## Nisat (Aug 5, 2013)

It's a common practice around here, most of the home are wired using #14.
I absolutely did fix quite a few of those in the last year.


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## Nisat (Aug 5, 2013)

Just replaced this one today


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## Nisat (Aug 5, 2013)

And yes , the Ckt.breaker did not trip.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

wendon said:


> Explain the "it's not based on logic" remark. I wire all my houses with #12 to most wall outlets and #14 to lighting outlets.


Canadian boy here. All our houses in Canada are wired with #14. 

Wire sits on a 15 amp breaker. CEC says the old stuff is good for 15 amps (actually 20 now in the new code, 60 C). New CEC says the new stuff (90 C) is good for 25 amps. We can only hang it on a 15 amp breaker tho.

What that means that during testing they ran a stove or two of #14 wire with no problem. Still they have to sell wire so we have our rules. Political stuff you see.

So... with that said you explain the logic in using #12. You're wasting a ton of copper in your life span, and ruining the world.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Yes however, correct me if i'm wrong, but you northern boys won't daisy chain a 15A device on a 20A circuit Dave....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Nisat said:


> And yes , the Ckt.breaker did not trip.


An afci usually won't on a glowing connection either. As most of the heat , ergo fire hazard is assumed before it degrades into an arcing connection, the protective theory is entirely moot.....


~CS~


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Yes however, correct me if i'm wrong, but you northern boys won't daisy chain a 15A device on a 20A circuit Dave....
> 
> ~CS~


Once we go to a 20 amp circuit (our kitchen receptacles are 20 amp now days) we pull #12 no problem. 

Also I think they are looking distance limitations where we may have to run #12. I'm not up to speed on that tho.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

daveEM said:


> Once we go to a 20 amp circuit (our kitchen receptacles are 20 amp now days) we pull #12 no problem.
> 
> Also I think they are looking distance limitations where we may have to run #12. I'm not up to speed on that tho.



Well that's another whole can of worms. According to most VD calcs , and our 3/5% tolerance, most resi HR's should be #10 gauge


~CS~


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Well that's another whole can of worms. According to most VD calcs , and our 3/5% tolerance, most resi HR's should be #10 gauge
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah.  Never ever worried about it up here. I'm sure I've wired my last tho. Haven't done one in a couple of years.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Nisat said:


> Just replaced this one today


That device was has wire wrapped on the screw. It is just one of many possible failure points in a home electrical system.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

wendon said:


> Explain the "it's not based on logic" remark. I wire all my houses with #12 to most wall outlets and #14 to lighting outlets. If I was trying to get the low bid, I might consider doing more "code minimum" things like #14 to bedroom recepts etc. As it is, I seldom to never bid against anyone else so I'm left to wire at my own discretion. I usually run at least 4 SABC to the kitchen counter and a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator, microwave etc. I also install almost exclusively QO. If I was competing, I might consider Homeline. How much savings are you going to get in an average house by running all 14-2 ? Not a lot. I also question how much faster it is to backstab versus screw terminal. If you figured a 1 minute savings per recept, and your house had 80 recepts, That's an 80 minute savings. Not a whole lot of money. That's assuming that you have no more than 2 romex in each box. If you have more than 2, you're going to be pigtailing anyway.


What, pray tell, makes that better than wiring a house to code? If a house has a solid central heating/cooling system, your biggest loads on circuits other than the kitchen is going to be a computer or TV and home theater setup. Very little current draw. Most kitchens here are still wired with 1 15 or 20A circuit for the kitchen counter left over from the fuse panel days, and people have very few problems. I usually hit the countertop with 2 circuits, the fridge on with the dining room, a 20A dishwasher/disposal circuit, and a 15A for the rangehood/micro. An older house? Then I completely agree with using 20A receptacle circuits like I said in my previous post.

My point, is that 15A is still a lot of power in a house, believe it or not. Heck, I know a house that is still running just fine on a 120v 30A service. You are more than welcome to say that you are doing it "better" than code minimum, but what exactly is better about it other than it costs more and is more work? I am lazy and prefer terminating devices and whatnot with #14 instead of #12.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Nisat said:


> Just replaced this one today


You buy your recepts at Wal Mart??


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> What, pray tell, makes that better than wiring a house to code? If a house has a solid central heating/cooling system, your biggest loads on circuits other than the kitchen is going to be a computer or TV and home theater setup. Very little current draw. Most kitchens here are still wired with 1 15 or 20A circuit for the kitchen counter left over from the fuse panel days, and people have very few problems. I usually hit the countertop with 2 circuits, the fridge on with the dining room, a 20A dishwasher/disposal circuit, and a 15A for the rangehood/micro. An older house? Then I completely agree with using 20A receptacle circuits like I said in my previous post.
> 
> My point, is that 15A is still a lot of power in a house, believe it or not. Heck, I know a house that is still running just fine on a 120v 30A service. You are more than welcome to say that you are doing it "better" than code minimum, but what exactly is better about it other than it costs more and is more work? I am lazy and prefer terminating devices and whatnot with #14 instead of #12.


I'm doing it better than code minimum. Very little more work terminating #12 versus #14. What about when the HO's two daughters run their hair dryers in the bedroom? The only way I'd do it is if I was trying to lowball it. How much you figure on saving by using #14 exclusively?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

According to my reading dwelling branch circuit sizing can include all the general use receptacles on one circuit , which is a code min i doubt most of us would pursue.

~CS~


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## BSK3720 (Mar 29, 2014)

Found this last summer: House 5 years old, Panel mounted in clothes closet, 20A breaker, 12 ga home run, 14 between receptacles. This box had the 12-2 home run and 2 14-2's. Two wires under screws and one stabbed in. No pigtails. You can see that the stab-in caused the failure. We have no inspection outside the city limits.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

BSK3720 said:


> Found this last summer: House 5 years old, Panel mounted in clothes closet, 20A breaker, 12 ga home run, 14 between receptacles. This box had the 12-2 home run and 2 14-2's. Two wires under screws and one stabbed in. No pigtails. You can see that the stab-in caused the failure. We have no inspection outside the city limits.
> 
> View attachment 41762
> 
> ...


Would an inspection have made a difference?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

wendon said:


> I'm doing it better than code minimum. Very little more work terminating #12 versus #14. What about when the HO's two daughters run their hair dryers in the bedroom? The only way I'd do it is if I was trying to lowball it. How much you figure on saving by using #14 exclusively?


What's better about it?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Under a fault condition I am guessing the 15 amp breaker trips quite a bit faster than the 20. Therefore 14 would actually be safer.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> What's better about it?


90.1 (B)
*Adequacy*

This _Code _contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety.
Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would rather put in 5 14's than 3 12's.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Under a fault condition I am guessing the 15 amp breaker trips quite a bit faster than the 20. Therefore 14 would actually be safer.


The interrupting rating is that same I believe. Of course, it'll trip faster in an overload condition.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I would rather put in 5 14's than 3 12's.


Then you'll have to derate them! :jester:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Under a fault condition I am guessing the 15 amp breaker trips quite a bit faster than the 20. Therefore 14 would actually be safer.


 For an overload condition, I agree the 15A would trip faster. Once the fault current gets high enough (about 230A for both breakers) the trip times are the same.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

wendon said:


> 90.1 (B)
> Adequacy
> 
> This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety.
> Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.


So you essentially have no real explanation. Gotcha.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm always amused by people who use all #12. I say let people waste time and money if it makes them feel better. That's what competition is all about.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> I'm always amused by people who use all #12. I say let people waste time and money if it makes them feel better. That's what competition is all about.


I always make someone else trim out the 12's I stick wit h the 14's:laughing:


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## BSK3720 (Mar 29, 2014)

sbrn33 said:


> Would an inspection have made a difference?


Not with stab ins, but with some of the other violations.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> For an overload condition, I agree the 15A would trip faster. Once the fault current gets high enough (about 230A for both breakers) the trip times are the same.


I agree, in fact if you look at most common breaker trip curves; magnetic trip values all tend to pick up at the same place:


http://www.schneider-electric.com.mx/documents/local/qo.pdf


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm always amused by people who use all #12. I say let people waste time and money if it makes them feel better. That's what competition is all about.


It depends, when calcing the code minimum VA per foot 12 can get you away with one less AFCI.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> I agree, in fact if you look at most common breaker trip curves; magnetic trip values all tend to pick up at the same place:
> 
> 
> http://www.schneider-electric.com.mx/documents/local/qo.pdf



This is why mains will trip before a branch circuit ocdp, although i'm often at a loss for a more colorful explanation....

~CS~


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

wendon said:


> What about when the HO's two daughters run their hair dryers in the bedroom?


The receptacles are going to be the weak link regardless. Where the prongs touch the contacts inside the receptacle it will melt long before the #14 sees any reasonable temp rise.

Connection points on resi installs are almost always the weak point in a system. Whether it be receptacles, wire nuts, lugs, whatever; that's where the most current/heat problems will show up.

Being in an industry that usually isn't governed by NEC/CEC has really given me some insight to what wire can really handle. We regularly put 20A through #16 for a couple hours when testing stuff. Never had an issue. Never felt it get warm.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> The receptacles are going to be the weak link regardless. Where the prongs touch the contacts inside the receptacle it will melt long before the #14 sees any reasonable temp rise.
> 
> Connection points on resi installs are almost always the weak point in a system. Whether it be receptacles, wire nuts, lugs, whatever; that's where the most current/heat problems will show up.
> 
> Being in an industry that usually isn't governed by NEC/CEC has really given me some insight to what wire can really handle. We regularly put 20A through #16 for a couple hours when testing stuff. Never had an issue. Never felt it get warm.


Was the wire 100' long? Huge difference.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> The receptacles are going to be the weak link regardless. Where the prongs touch the contacts inside the receptacle it will melt long before the #14 sees any reasonable temp rise....


 Pretty sure _Bad Electrician_ disproved that one. The copper conductors were discoloring and losing tensile strength long before the tab failed open.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Big John said:


> Pretty sure _Bad Electrician_ disproved that one. The copper conductors were discoloring and losing tensile strength long before the tab failed open.


Interesting. I wonder if the conductor we use has different insulation.

I should clarify: My comment was not in regards to the tab failing open...I doubt if it would until you really get up in current. It was more toward a poor connection creating heat regardless of the conductor (within reason) assuming slight overload (think 20A on a 15A CB with #14), not an overload of 90A like Bad Electricians test.

Although the test he did is valid, seeing as the circuit breaker would not open in that time.

Edit: I read the test wrong and looked up the curves. A 15A would open in 2-8 seconds.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

wendon said:


> Was the wire 100' long? Huge difference.


Why would that make a difference? It would affect VD, but 20A is 20A regardless of length.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> Why would that make a difference? It would affect VD, but 20A is 20A regardless of length.


Okay, put a 20 amp load on a 16 gauge, 100' extension cord for a period of 6 hours and let me know the results.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I think one nice experience in going from commercial to residential has been getting to stab #14.

The first time I did a whole house, I couldn't believe how fast backstabbing made the job. I had this stupid silly grin on my face the whole time, :laughing:


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

eddy current said:


> There is a reason that spec grade plugs dont come with backstabb holes. It is not as good a connection as using the screws.


Spec grade receptacles have back wire holes. The ones with the pressure plate terminations. That's all I try to use. It's as good or better than the screw terminations. A bonus, is it's great for stranded THHN wire. :thumbsup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> This is why mains will trip before a branch circuit ocdp, although i'm often at a loss for a more colorful explanation....
> 
> ~CS~


Believe it or not, the closer the fault is to a panel the more likely mis-cordination is going to take place. Less circuit length mean less impedance to limit fault current. Utilities that can provide higher fault current add to that. 

Even if a main has a higher magnetic trip than the branch breaker, should the fault current exceed the magnetic trip of the main its a competition of who will trip first. Add normal manufacturing tolerances in molded case breakers and odds go up.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Meadow,

so may i say that in laymans terms as _'spikes closer to the Xformer do more damage' ?_ ~CS~


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## ivan (Nov 16, 2011)

....


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## ivan (Nov 16, 2011)

I absolutely NEVER backstab unless: I have 3 cables in a shallow box so the screw terminals are used up and there's little room for pigtails.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

wendon said:


> Okay, put a 20 amp load on a 16 gauge, 100' extension cord for a period of 6 hours and let me know the results.


But if I had a 3' #16 extension cord at 20A would it behave any different, other than the VD? If so I'd like to know what difference it makes.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

wendon said:


> I... What about when the HO's two daughters run their hair dryers in the bedroom? The only way I'd do it is if I was trying to lowball it....




2 Home Owners Daughters in the bedroom ... lowball it .
Hell , any which way you can !




Pete


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## Almost always lurkin (Jul 30, 2014)

meadow said:


> Wagos make more intimate contact with wire much like a screw pressure plate, but a back stab is just a single metal tong pushing on the conductor.


Illustrating meadow's point:

A push-in Ideal connector, same kind of animal as the Wago 773 series:









A Wago lever-clamp connector, 222 series:









A Leviton stab-in receptacle:


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## joeelectric (Feb 7, 2014)

Keep backstabbing its a easy service call for me. $$$$$


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

AK_sparky said:


> But if I had a 3' #16 extension cord at 20A would it behave any different, other than the VD? If so I'd like to know what difference it makes.


If you don't know I'd suggest trying it. Better yet, get a friend with a thermal imager and watch the cord. What happens to the resistance when the temperature goes up??


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Sometimes you don't have a choice. I am removing these from my house over the holidays. These are backstab only. No screw terminals. 









These are the strange "mini decora" type switches I posted a pic of a couple years ago.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

*single purpose rule*

The thing that caught my attention with this post is the devices purpose is not addressed. I'm talking about the receptacle having multiple wires landed on it. I was taught that any electrical device is to only have one purpose. A receptacle's sole purpose is to accept a plug. If you use the receptacle as a splice point in your branch circuit then this is a code violation because the receptacle is now being used for two purposes. 1 for a plug and 2 as a splice. The reason there is more than one point of connection is in case the device needs to be split. This is done by breaking off the tabs. This is usually seen in a residential room that has no overhead lighting. The top part of the receptacle is wired to the rooms switch and now covers the need for a switched light in the room and the bottom half still covers the 12' between outlets rule. Although the device is split it still only has one purpose, that being to accept a plug. I have seen this splicing practice too many times and have known some AHJ to pass this without hesitation. Talk about heat factor, I wonder what kind of heat the first outlet in the circuit is going to have to handle when the branch circuit is wired this way. Then lets add back stabbing to the equation? Doesn't sound too good to me. Besides in N.Y.C. if the AHJ catches either wiring method you fail and before you know it they are literally tearing your job apart. And trust me they will find plenty more violations if this is how you operate. They expect pigtails as well as terminating on the screw only. Besides, it's the professional way to work, period!


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> If you don't know I'd suggest trying it. Better yet, get a friend with a thermal imager and watch the cord. What happens to the resistance when the temperature goes up??


What difference is the longer cord going to make? The resistance will increase at the same rate with heat whether it's 3ft or 100ft, you're just going to have a bigger voltage drop with the longer cord


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Hoodood said:


> The thing that caught my attention with this post is the devices purpose is not addressed. I'm talking about the receptacle having multiple wires landed on it. I was taught that any electrical device is to only have one purpose. A receptacle's sole purpose is to accept a plug. If you use the receptacle as a splice point in your branch circuit then this is a code violation because the receptacle is now being used for two purposes. 1 for a plug and 2 as a splice. The reason there is more than one point of connection is in case the device needs to be split. This is done by breaking off the tabs. This is usually seen in a residential room that has no overhead lighting. The top part of the receptacle is wired to the rooms switch and now covers the need for a switched light in the room and the bottom half still covers the 12' between outlets rule. Although the device is split it still only has one purpose, that being to accept a plug. I have seen this splicing practice too many times and have known some AHJ to pass this without hesitation. Talk about heat factor, I wonder what kind of heat the first outlet in the circuit is going to have to handle when the branch circuit is wired this way. Then lets add back stabbing to the equation? Doesn't sound too good to me. Besides in N.Y.C. if the AHJ catches either wiring method you fail and before you know it they are literally tearing your job apart. And trust me they will find plenty more violations if this is how you operate. They expect pigtails as well as terminating on the screw only. Besides, it's the professional way to work, period!


I don't know about NYC, but in most of the USA, landing the feed in and feed out on the receptacle is common practice, not considered a code violation.

You made some statements that I don't believe are accurate.


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## BSK3720 (Mar 29, 2014)

The only rule that requires pig tailing is the MWBC requirement that removal of a device does not interrupt the grounded conductor. Maybe I'm missing something. Code reference please?

I also understood that 15A receptacles are rated for 20A feed-thru current based on NEC 210.21 B 3.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Are you saying romex is crap or something?
> 
> I dont backstab. I use the side screws and feed through devices. Its how I was taught.


Just saying that solid wire is closely associated with Romex. Back stab receptacles are exclusively made for solid wire, maybe some exceptions, I don't know for sure.
Romex is the cheapest wiring method allowed in houses.
Backstabbing a receptacle is the cheapest way to trim a house.
Someone wants to be snooty and thinks the installation will be vastly improved by not backstabbing devices is like saying brown turds are better than beige turds. 
I have found dozens of loose solid wire side terminations and maybe only a handful of bad back stabbed devices.
I would think it would be easier back-wiring then learning how to side wire correctly.
I have side wrapped thousands of receptacles with stranded wire before I had ever seen solid wire, some people don't understand that either.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Let's be honest, most people hate back stabbing of devices. However, back stabbed devices do generate income for a service based EC. So, keep on back stabbing those devices bitches.:laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

bkmichael65 said:


> What difference is the longer cord going to make? The resistance will increase at the same rate with heat whether it's 3ft or 100ft, you're just going to have a bigger voltage drop with the longer cord


Ohm's law. 20 amp 120 vac load = 2400 watts on a 100' #16 cord

Unless my calculator is wrong, that's a 20 volt drop
Now your 20 amp load becomes a 24 amp load unless it's resistive.
The problem isn't the ambient temperature, it's the rising temperature of the conductor. After a period of time, the temperature will rise above the melting point of the insulation and you'll let the magic smoke out of the cord resulting in another trip to Wal Mart to pick up another cord. While your at Wal Mart, you'll end up buying plastic lawn furniture and other things you have no use for.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Just saying that solid wire is closely associated with Romex. Back stab receptacles are exclusively made for solid wire, maybe some exceptions, I don't know for sure.
> Romex is the cheapest wiring method allowed in houses.
> Backstabbing a receptacle is the cheapest way to trim a house.
> Someone wants to be snooty and thinks the installation will be vastly improved by not backstabbing devices is like saying brown turds are better than beige turds.
> ...


 There's a whole world of difference between "backstabbed" and "backwired". Whenever I get a call that a string of receptacle have quit working, I can usually assume it's a backstabbing problem. Very rare to see a problem with a screw terminal connection. Do you solder the stranded before using it on the screw terminal??


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

wendon said:


> There's a whole world of difference between "backstabbed" and "backwired". Whenever I get a call that a string of receptacle have quit working, I can usually assume it's a backstabbing problem. Very rare to see a problem with a screw terminal connection. Do you solder the stranded before using it on the screw terminal??


And 99% of the time it is a burnt neutral connection in the receptacle that is still working.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> Ohm's law. 20 amp 120 vac load = 2400 watts on a 100' #16 cord
> 
> Unless my calculator is wrong, that's a 20 volt drop
> Now your 20 amp load becomes a 24 amp load unless it's resistive.
> The problem isn't the ambient temperature, it's the rising temperature of the conductor. After a period of time, the temperature will rise above the melting point of the insulation and you'll let the magic smoke out of the cord resulting in another trip to Wal Mart to pick up another cord. While your at Wal Mart, you'll end up buying plastic lawn furniture and other things you have no use for.


Resistance of 100ft #16 cord is .402 ohms x 20 amps= 8.04 Volt drop and 160 Watts or 548 BTU's spread over it's entire length, which is not enough heat to significantly raise it's resistance.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Hoodood said:


> . If you use the receptacle as a splice point in your branch circuit then this is a code violation !


Saying that something is a code violation without the code reference ? Hmmm


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

wendon said:


> There's a whole world of difference between "backstabbed" and "backwired". Whenever I get a call that a string of receptacle have quit working, I can usually assume it's a backstabbing problem. Very rare to see a problem with a screw terminal connection. Do you solder the stranded before using it on the screw terminal??


I grab the wire just over an inch back from the end with my strippers and pull it towards the end like I was going to strip it but stop when about 3/4" of bare wire is showing.
I wrap the exposed part around the screw and torque it down. No need to twist or solder if done just right.
I worked with my dad when I first got into the trade and he always did it like this.
He used his linesman pliers and I did too until I discovered strippers.
I can do a good job with either but I prefer strippers.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

jrannis said:


> I grab the wire just over an inch back from the end with my strippers and pull it towards the end like I was going to strip it but stop when about 3/4" of bare wire is showing.
> I wrap the exposed part around the screw and torque it down. No need to twist or solder if done just right.
> I worked with my dad when I first got into the trade and he always did it like this.
> He used his linesman pliers and I did too until I discovered strippers.
> I can do a good job with either but I prefer strippers.


Just twist your strands counter clockwise.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

jrannis said:


> I grab the wire just over an inch back from the end with my strippers and pull it towards the end like I was going to strip it but stop when about 3/4" of bare wire is showing.
> I wrap the exposed part around the screw and torque it down. No need to twist or solder if done just right.
> I worked with my dad when I first got into the trade and he always did it like this.
> He used his linesman pliers and I did too until I discovered strippers.
> I can do a good job with either but I prefer strippers.


Though I dont do it this way... seen it years back from an oldtimer. Perhaps I will try it out again.. totally had forgot about it. ::thumbsup::


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I don't know about NYC, but in most of the USA, landing the feed in and feed out on the receptacle is common practice, not considered a code violation.
> 
> You made some statements that I don't believe are accurate.


As I stated "I was taught" this. I'm not one who knows the code book inside and out so maybe someone that is can help. What I did find was this excerpt, 110.14 (b) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use. I am not sure if any "receptacle" is listed as also a splicing device. You are correct in stating that this is a common practice elsewhere in the states. As I mentioned I've seen many AHJ's allow this. In NYC it only flies if it's not caught. Unlike other AHJ'S NYC has adapted its own version of the NEC. Every inspector in NYC expects pigtails so I never questioned them only adhered to their requests. Is it NEC code or not I can not truly answer this and ask that this be clarified.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

A connection to a device is not a splice so it doesn't have to comply with 110.14(B). It's a termination that must comply with 110.14(A), and receptacles are UL listed to be used as feed-through within their ampacity.

If NYC wants to be different, okay, but since most of the rest of the country allows feed-through, it's really hard to argue there's a legitimate danger there.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Just twist your strands counter clockwise.


I don't remember twisting but may have done it without realizing it.


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## SdCountySparky (Aug 6, 2014)

Well backstabbing receptacles will keep service calls coming. Its good for the economy. I do not and I will not. To each their own.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

Big John said:


> A connection to a device is not a splice so it doesn't have to comply with 110.14(B). It's a termination that must comply with 110.14(A), and receptacles are UL listed to be used as feed-through within their ampacity.
> 
> If NYC wants to be different, okay, but since most of the rest of the country allows feed-through, it's really hard to argue there's a legitimate danger there.


Thanks, Big John. NYC likes to be above and beyond especially when it comes to $$. One source of income is the buildings dept. During inspections they pull a few outlets looking for feed through and back stabbing. It's a money generator for them. Let me also mention that they also don't allow any 1/2" conduit (3/4" min.), very restricted use of PVC, no wire under 12AWG can be used on line voltage along with other particulars that they don't like or think can help the budget. As a matter of fact after all these decades for some reason they recently started to allow the use of Romex, in certain conditions only. Believe it or not years ago you couldn't even buy Romex inside the city line! Part of the deal in this here part of the woods.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hoodood said:


> As a matter of fact after all these decades for some reason they recently started to allow the use of Romex, in certain conditions only. Believe it or not years ago you couldn't even buy Romex inside the city line! Part of the deal in this here part of the woods.


 
For decades NYC had it's own code that went well above and beyond the NEC. In addition, every authority (Transit Authority, Port Authority, School Construction Authority, DOT, Bridges & Tunnels, etc.) also have their own code. The City of NY adopted the NEC a few years ago, leaving only some of the original intact as amendments to the NEC. 

Romex was always available in NYC, for use as temporary lighting.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

From the UL Guide Information (white book) for "Receptacles for Plugs and Attachment Plugs (RTRT)"


> Single and duplex receptacles rated 15 and 20 A that are provided with more than one set of terminals for the connection of line and neutral conductors have been investigated to feed branch-circuit conductors connected to other outlets on a multi-outlet branch circuit, as follows:
> 
> 
> Back-wire (screw-actuated clamp type) terminations with multiple wire-access holes used concurrently to terminate more than one conductor
> Side-wire (binding screw) terminals used concurrently with their respective push-in (screwless) terminations to terminate more than one conductor


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

bkmichael65 said:


> Resistance of 100ft #16 cord is .402 ohms x 20 amps= 8.04 Volt drop and 160 Watts or 548 BTU's spread over it's entire length, which is not enough heat to significantly raise it's resistance.


Don't you have to figure the resistance x 2 ? 
Why does my ElectriCalc say 20 volt drop? Maybe someone else can explain or run it through their calculator.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

From Table 9 I get 0.529 Ω per 100' and I agree, you do have to multiply it by 2 because you're counting the total circuit distance, so that would work out to 1.058 Ω

That's a 21V drop, or 2.1W per foot of power dissipation.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Big John said:


> From Table 9 I get 0.529 Ω per 100' and I agree, you do have to multiply it by 2 because you're counting the total circuit distance, so that would work out to 1.058 Ω
> 
> That's a 21V drop, or 2.1W per foot of power dissipation.


So, in your opinion, is the cord going to fail? If you assume that the heat will dissipate it might be okay but I would expect a temperature rise over time although the rate of heat exchange would be greater at a higher temperature. You would definitely have a hard time starting anything with an inrush current involved.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> Don't you have to figure the resistance x 2 ?
> Why does my ElectriCalc say 20 volt drop? Maybe someone else can explain or run it through their calculator.


Oops, no wonder I keep burning down buildings


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wendon said:


> So, in your opinion, is the cord going to fail...?


 No, but that's because it's so rare to see cords overheat. I think the only times I've really seen it were when they were left wound up inside reels while they were under heavy load.


> ...You would definitely have a hard time starting anything with an inrush current involved.


 Agreed, and maybe there's risk of overheating that device depending on whether it's inductive or not. But my opinion is the cord itself is not the hazard.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

wendon said:


> There's a whole world of difference between "backstabbed" and "backwired". Whenever I get a call that a string of receptacle have quit working, I can usually assume it's a backstabbing problem. Very rare to see a problem with a screw terminal connection. Do you solder the stranded before using it on the screw terminal??


I found out that tinning the stranded wire is not a good practice. The solder has a tendency to "flow" when getting warm and causing a loose connection.
The instructions on the box, that Hubbell plug caps and connector bodies come in, warn against it.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> I found out that tinning the stranded wire is not a good practice. The solder has a tendency to "flow" when getting warm and causing a loose connection....


 Interesting. So it's actually a type of cold-flow? Have you seen that happen?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

Big John said:


> Interesting. So it's actually a type of cold-flow? Have you seen that happen?


I'm a collector and restorer of old radios. Many radios built before 1936, had the old cloth and rubber covered power cords with a screw terminal plug cap. The assemblers at the time, always tinned the ends of the conductors, so the strands wouldn't separate, when the plug was installed. It made a neater looking job. I always found the screws needed tightening.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

So, really then...How long has the art of backstabbing been around? 

Late 50's? Early 60's? Maybe earlier then that?

This has been the way that 99% of homes built since 1950's(ish) have had their devices done, and countless commercial jobs too? Banks, mansions, office buildings, sub divisions, strip malls....tons of stuff.

Very common and very wide spread. 

So it's only natural that when a connection finally goes out, it's gonna be a backstab connection. Why would it be anything else, right? I mean only huge overwhelming numbers of devices have been done like this. So, Of course this is going to happen!! 

And what about the smaller percentage of guys that have wrapped the screws over the years? Everybody has seen those connections burn out just as easy as the backstabbed ones.

Maybe the method is whack, maybe it's great. But it's has been the preferred method of devicing for 60+ years now. 1000's of companies around America do it every day. 

Think about that.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MH....I would say late 60's to the early 70's around here. The stuff we see from the 50's is all side screwed, with the majority of that pigtailed out as well.

I would guess that any connection improperly done will show itself with time, but I think also that most of us heavily involved in service work see the failures of back stabbed connections with a greater frequency, and I suspect it is not just do to the percentages of homes done that way. 

I know with the homes we service from the 50's most of my problems will not have to do with the receptacle connections. They were, mostly, installed quite well. 

With a home from the 80's, 90's. 2000's....I know almost exactly what the culprit will be when we are called and dispatched out. I would roughly say that 65% to 70% of all our service calls are backstabbed receptacles. 

I did it as an apprentice doing new construction. I worked for a large company that had a service department as well. I transferred to that division and one of the first things they did was instruct me to never do a backstabbed device. At the time the NC had a 1 year warranty on work and materials, the service had a 3 year warranty. We serviced some of the homes we built, and yes, most problems were backstabbed receptacles.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Hoodood said:


> Thanks, Big John. NYC likes to be above and beyond especially when it comes to $$. One source of income is the buildings dept. During inspections they pull a few outlets looking for feed through and back stabbing. It's a money generator for them. Let me also mention that they also don't allow any 1/2" conduit (3/4" min.), very restricted use of PVC, no wire under 12AWG can be used on line voltage along with other particulars that they don't like or think can help the budget. As a matter of fact after all these decades for some reason they recently started to allow the use of Romex, in certain conditions only. Believe it or not years ago you couldn't even buy Romex inside the city line! Part of the deal in this here part of the woods.


Weren't they restricted to no larger than #14 on all lighting circuits?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

SdCountySparky said:


> Well backstabbing receptacles will keep service calls coming. Its good for the economy. I do not and I will not. To each their own.


At the cost of increased fire risk. Its this mentality that blows my mind. :no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> Weren't they restricted to no larger than #14 on all lighting circuits?


Yes, somewhere back a few decades ago iirc....

~CS~


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> So, really then...How long has the art of backstabbing been around?
> 
> Late 50's? Early 60's? Maybe earlier then that?
> 
> ...


Commercial jobs? I've only seen a backstab on a ressi grade receptacle. Also 14awg is rarely used on a commercial job.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

meadow said:


> Weren't they restricted to no larger than #14 on all lighting circuits?


 A possibility for smaller wire may be OME fixture whips that are under 6' long. This may be a loop hole because the whip becomes part of the manufactured fixture since the whip is specifically manufactured for such use and is UL listed. I take no chances on my jobs and I have an apprentice make all the whips with 12 awg M/C. I have found the cost either way to be pretty much equal after install. Those whips aren't cheap. Last thing I would want to do is change all those whips in a completed ceiling. I looked in the NYC code book and as far as I can tell the NYC code mandates replacing 14 with 12 over a dozen times throughout including branch circuits, which is what feeds your lighting. Best to ask AHJ on this. Although you may be opening a can of worms. The last place you want your AHJ is in the ceiling. I've never seen 1 job where the ceiling work is 100% compliant although 100% safe and professional. I suspect this is the case because NYC doesn't have rough in inspections only final inspections at least on commercial jobs.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> So, really then...How long has the art of backstabbing been around?
> 
> Late 50's? Early 60's? Maybe earlier then that?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you came up with the 99% figure or the statement that it's the preferred method of devicing, but you are right that there are 1000's of companies that do it every day


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Hoodood said:


> A possibility for smaller wire may be OME fixture whips that are under 6' long. This may be a loop hole because the whip becomes part of the manufactured fixture since the whip is specifically manufactured for such use and is UL listed. I take no chances on my jobs and I have an apprentice make all the whips with 12 awg M/C. I have found the cost either way to be pretty much equal after install. Those whips aren't cheap. Last thing I would want to do is change all those whips in a completed ceiling. I looked in the NYC code book and as far as I can tell the NYC code mandates replacing 14 with 12 over a dozen times throughout including branch circuits, which is what feeds your lighting. Best to ask AHJ on this. Although you may be opening a can of worms. The last place you want your AHJ is in the ceiling. I've never seen 1 job where the ceiling work is 100% compliant although 100% safe and professional. I suspect this is the case because NYC doesn't have rough in inspections only final inspections at least on commercial jobs.


 
Makes sense. I just remember seeing old stuff where they had 14 in conduit for lightning circuits 30 years ago, but could be wrong. 

Doesn't the NYC code require a dedicated 20amp to all living rooms for an AC receptacle?


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

meadow said:


> Makes sense. I just remember seeing old stuff where they had 14 in conduit for lightning circuits 30 years ago, but could be wrong.
> 
> Doesn't the NYC code require a dedicated 20amp to all living rooms for an AC receptacle?


30yrs ago but not now. Keep in mind that it's already installed and passed so it doesn't need to be upgraded unless you add to the existing circuit. Then the circuit needs to be upgraded to comform to the new code. As far as the a/c outlet only if no central air and that's one of the few articles in the NEC that NYC hasn't changed.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Hoodood said:


> 30yrs ago but not now. Keep in mind that it's already installed and passed so it doesn't need to be upgraded unless you add to the existing circuit. Then the circuit needs to be upgraded to comform to the new code. As far as the a/c outlet only if no central air and that's one of the few articles in the NEC that NYC hasn't changed.


That article is not in the NEC, NEC only requires 4 circuits (1 laundry, 2 SABC, 1 bath) in addition to the general 3va per foot circuits.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

meadow said:


> That article is not in the NEC, NEC only requires 4 circuits (1 laundry, 2 SABC, 1 bath) in addition to the general 3va per foot circuits.


Guess I'm going to have to do some homework but I thought I remembered seeing an article covering those a/c outlets.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hoodood said:


> I suspect this is the case because NYC doesn't have rough in inspections only final inspections at least on commercial jobs.


No rough inspections in NYC?


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

MTW said:


> No rough inspections in NYC?


. Only final inspections. Maybe other agencies require them but not on any commercial job I've done.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

meadow said:


> That article is not in the NEC, NEC only requires 4 circuits (1 laundry, 2 SABC, 1 bath) in addition to the general 3va per foot circuits.


homework done. you are correct. its only in the NYC code article 210.52. Sorry for any inconvenience.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Hoodood said:


> homework done. you are correct. its only in the NYC code article 210.52. Sorry for any inconvenience.


Its ok 

When working with one code all your life (at least in my case) you forget how the others are written... heck its even hard to learn them.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

MTW said:


> No rough inspections in NYC?





Hoodood said:


> . Only final inspections. Maybe other agencies require them but not on any commercial job I've done.


I'm thinking the "no rough-in inspection" on commercial is because it is in conduit. We don't have to have a rough-in if the circuits are in conduit. That's because it's easy enough to see the wiring inside and also see most of the raceway. Also easy to verify the grounding. We do have to leave all devices (switches, receptacles, etc) out of the box for inspection though.


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## BSK3720 (Mar 29, 2014)

Hoodood said:


> homework done. you are correct. its only in the NYC code article 210.52. Sorry for any inconvenience.


NEC 440.62 B and C limit the AC load on that circuit. In practice, it requires a 20A if it's going to serve a window AC unit.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

A Little Short said:


> I'm thinking the "no rough-in inspection" on commercial is because it is in conduit. We don't have to have a rough-in if the circuits are in conduit. That's because it's easy enough to see the wiring inside and also see most of the raceway. Also easy to verify the grounding. We do have to leave all devices (switches, receptacles, etc) out of the box for inspection though.


Not the case in NYC. No rough inspection period. There are pros and cons concerning this. Like cable strapping in walls is almost none existent. Before rock goes up the job looks messy so I can't wait for the rockers to cover it up. But this makes for alterations becoming quite easy since the cables can easily be moved later on. A big plus is when a cable goes bad, which once in a while does happen. Such as someone not doing a good enough job trimming a cable into a box and nicking the wire. One con is that the sheetrockers are all over your case and often get ahead of the job. The sheetrock foreman constantly comes to me asking what walls he can rock noting that his workers have nothing to do and are waiting on us and the other trades. This tends to eat up some of my time since all trades have to work together in a professional atmosphere and not cooperating with the rockers is a big no no. They always repay the favor when you need patch work done. Keep in mind if there is a rough inspection then any faults of yours that need patch work has to be paid by you. Something no boss is ever happy with and reflects on your abilities. Another good point is that I find on commercial jobs the prints are never 100% accurate. As in most cases there are additions or modifications made after the walls are up. So this makes for extras which puts more $$$ in the bosses pocket and opens the door to a nice bonus for me. As I stated before, ceilings tend to get a little crazy and not so code compliant but safe and professional especially when all other trades are done up there and you have to add a few circuits. It becomes next to impossible to properly navigate up there. So, as far as I'm concerned it's great not needing a rough inspection. The pros far out weigh the cons.


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## Hoodood (May 19, 2012)

BSK3720 said:


> NEC 440.62 B and C limit the AC load on that circuit. In practice, it requires a 20A if it's going to serve a window AC unit.


Makes sense, especially in NYC where nothing smaller than 12 awg is used. Doesn't that outlet also have to be a single 20amp outlet not a duplex since that circuit is dedicated?


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