# grounding



## chevycamguy98 (Nov 7, 2014)

I have 2 services going into a building; one is for the house panel and one is fore the fire pump. Inspector wants me to run ufer ground back to the tapcan for the house panel service. I also have building steel running into the tapcan. SO my electrode system consist of the steel, ufer and water pipe. Am I still going to be required to put a ground rod at the meter/main disconnect?

Second question do I need to drive a ground for the fire pump meter too?
I have a #4 going to building steel from the fire pump controller.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

chevycamguy98 said:


> I have 2 services going into a building; one is for the house panel and one is fore the fire pump. Inspector wants me to run ufer ground back to the tapcan for the house panel service. I also have building steel running into the tapcan. SO my electrode system consist of the steel, ufer and water pipe. Am I still going to be required to put a ground rod at the meter/main disconnect?
> 
> Second question do I need to drive a ground for the fire pump meter too?
> I have a #4 going to building steel from the fire pump controller.


You should have two ground rods at the meter and both meters should be at least next to each other.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

No way black dog, he used the street, and a ufer, no aux rods required. I would not drive rods unless he personally pulled out his check book and paid me to do so.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No way black dog, he used the street, and a ufer, no aux rods required. I would not drive rods unless he personally pulled out his check book and paid me to do so.


You can have 10,000,000 tons of building steel and attach, and use that as an electrode BUT, you still have to drive a rod.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

chevycamguy98 said:


> I have 2 services going into a building; one is for the house panel and one is fore the fire pump. Inspector wants me to run ufer ground back to the tapcan for the house panel service. I also have building steel running into the tapcan. SO my electrode system consist of the steel, ufer and water pipe. Am I still going to be required to put a ground rod at the meter/main disconnect? Second question do I need to drive a ground for the fire pump meter too? I have a #4 going to building steel from the fire pump controller.


Ufer and you're good, no rods, that came right from the state board of electricity.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> You can have 10,000,000 tons of building steel and attach, and use that as an electrode BUT, you still have to drive a rod.


Hahahahha, you're funny. You're joking right?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Hahahahha, you're funny. You're joking right?


I may be wrong, but I'm not joking. To me, it does sound ludicrous, but as far as I know it's the code. Look up "Ground rods, where necessary.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

If you've got the water pipe then all you need is one supplemental electrode, which you already picked up in the form of building steel, see 250.32(D). 

But I see you've got an Ufer which is good enough by itself without any supplemental, so it looks like you're covered 200%.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> I may be wrong, but I'm not joking. To me, it does sound ludicrous, but as far as I know it's the code. Look up "Ground rods, where necessary.


According to the top training pros at the state, you're wrong. We had a grounding class, that was the first question they asked us. "How many of you are pounding ground rods when you have a ufer?" Then they said we don't have to.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

backstay said:


> According to the top training pros at the state, you're wrong. We had a grounding class, that was the first question they asked us. "How many of you are pounding ground rods when you have a ufer?" Then they said we don't have to.


That may be but I did correct myself in a later post about the ufer. My intention was to say that there has to be an additional grounding means other than the steel. Some call it supplemental.:thumbsup:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No way black dog, he used the street, and a ufer, no aux rods required. I would not drive rods unless he personally pulled out his check book and paid me to do so.



He said he has a meter/main disconnect, the fault current has to go there for the disconnect to operate correctly.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> He said he has a meter/main disconnect, the fault current has to go there for the disconnect to operate correctly.


So your using soil to trip the meter/main?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> So your using soil to trip the meter/main?


No I did not say that, however all of his grounding means are connected to the earth.

He needs his fault current to go past the disconnects and not dissipate in the building steel before it makes to the disconnects.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Why are we talking about faults? The electrode system has nothing to do with faults.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> He said he has a meter/main disconnect, the fault current has to go there for the disconnect to operate correctly.


Are you saying that the fault current, if any, has to go back to the over-current device...service panel for it to be cleared. If so, you are right,:thumbsup:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Big John said:


> Why are we talking about faults? The electrode system has nothing to do with faults.


Oh--Good.....:blink:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Big John said:


> Why are we talking about faults? The electrode system has nothing to do with faults.


What we may be talking about here is the difference between a EGC and a GEC.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I feel like a lot of you guys have been drinking tonight. Maybe that's just me...

_Chevycamguy,_ your question was answered in post #3.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Big John said:


> I feel like a lot of you guys have been drinking tonight. Maybe that's just me...
> 
> _Chevycamguy,_ your question was answered in post #3.


You may be right, but I believe it is possibly an on-going misconception about what grounding is really all about.:thumbsup:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Are you saying that the fault current, if any, has to go back to the over-current device...service panel for it to be cleared. If so, you are right,:thumbsup:


I will say I disagree. The "fault" has to go back to the source, not the OCD. If the earth happened to be a low resistance path back to the transformer (which we all know it won't be) then the OCD would trip. My point is that the OCD will trip no matter how the fault gets back to the source, it just so happens that the lowest resistance path back to the source happens to be through the neutral for the service.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No way black dog, he used the street, and a ufer, no aux rods required. I would not drive rods unless he personally pulled out his check book and paid me to do so.


Nice to see you again. Why the close to 10 month absence? Busy working hard? Making tons of money :thumbup: ?

No matter, glad to see you! :thumbsup:


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## KGN742003 (Apr 23, 2012)

John nailed it, ufer is good enough on its own. Since you have a metal water pipe for at least 10' into the earth you must use that as well.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I will say I disagree. The "fault" has to go back to the source, not the OCD. If the earth happened to be a low resistance path back to the transformer (which we all know it won't be) then the OCD would trip. My point is that the OCD will trip no matter how the fault gets back to the source, it just so happens that the lowest resistance path back to the source happens to be through the neutral for the service.


Yeah, I knew what I meant but I DID say it incorrectly...good catch.:thumbsup:


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## chevycamguy98 (Nov 7, 2014)

We have our building steel and ufer coming into the tapcan so do I bond it to the neutral bar inside the tapcan and have a jumper out to the ground bar? Can I mount the ground bar inside the can or gutter? Or just outside like it shows? I'm not actually doing it my self but I am helping someone and want to seem like I kinda k ow what's going on. I don't think I have seen a ground bar outside the tapcan before


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> That may be but I did correct myself in a later post about the ufer. My intention was to say that there has to be an additional grounding means other than the steel. Some call it supplemental.:thumbsup:


If the building steel meets the requirements of 250.52(A)(2), and there are no other existing electrodes, there is no requirement to provide any additional electrodes.


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