# Subpanel location and size



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

PhillyRyan said:


> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post. I just got done rewiring my whole house but now thinking of ways I could have done it quicker, cheaper, better, etc. Does code allow a subpanel in the attic, even if there is no steps to the attic and the height at center is at most 6 ft? Also, what size panel would you recommend for this subpanel which would feed 4 average size bedrooms and two bathrooms? Appreciate any advice!
> 
> -Ryan


 I think an electrician, would know the answer to this question!!!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

PhillyRyan said:


> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post. I just got done rewiring my whole house but now thinking of ways I could have done it quicker, cheaper, better, etc. Does code allow a subpanel in the attic, even if there is no steps to the attic and the height at center is at most 6 ft? Also, what size panel would you recommend for this subpanel which would feed 4 average size bedrooms and two bathrooms? Appreciate any advice!
> 
> -Ryan


 
I can't imagine any reason to have the breakers for the bedrooms in the attic. Air handlers, Water heater yes (if they are up there).


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> I think an electrician, would know the answer to this question!!!





jwjrw said:


> I can't imagine any reason to have the breakers for the bedrooms in the attic. Air handlers, Water heater yes (if they are up there).



I think it may be time for the secret decoder ring again.:batman::jester:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Don't put it in the attic. How in the heck is the homeowner going to know it's even there and how will they reset a tripped breaker? Take some pride in your work and put that panel somewhere legitament.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Your an electrical engineer and your asking these questions? What does the code say? And you are done wiring already? What did the inspector say? Can you please give me the names and date of births of your wife and children. I would like to purchase a life insurance policy in their names with me being the beneficiary.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If you can get a feed from the real panel location to the attic, you can just as easily get a few cables up there to feed the upstairs circuits.

And, in your case.... no permanent stair, no floor, not enough headroom, you can't put a panel up there.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> If you can get a feed from the real panel location to the attic, you can just as easily get a few cables up there to feed the upstairs circuits.
> 
> And, in your case.... no permanent stair, no floor, not enough headroom, you can't put a panel up there.


But it would save $5.00.:jester:


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not an electrician. I do have a degree in electrical engineering but I don't use it on my job and even if i did, it would not make me qualified to be an electrician whatsoever. However, I've learned as much as I can about wiring a home in a short time and rewired my own home and had it pass inspection. Now I am trying to think of things I could have done better/cheaper/quicker as I'd like to do it again on my next house and I am continuing to learn as much as I can as I want to be 100% certain everything I've done is safe and sound as I don't trust inspectors, nor do I trust half the bozos out there calling themselves electricians. I already see you guys are not in the bozo category and I respect your expertise and am fully willing to take a beating, as long as I learn and get the correct information.

With that said, let me further elaborate on the reasoning for my question. I ran 8 circuits up into the attic and in order to do so I had to rip down a whole wall of drywall in one of the upstairs bedrooms such that i could run two cables up each wall cavity and had to rip down lots of drywall downstairs to even get the cables up to the bedroom wall. I'm trying to figure out if there was a better way such that I wouldn't have had to rip down so much drywall or use so much wire. How do you guys normally handle this without tearing down half the drywall and using the minimal amount of wire? Thanks again for any help!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

PhillyRyan said:


> I'm not an electrician. I do have a degree in electrical engineering but I don't use it on my job and even if i did, it would not make me qualified to be an electrician whatsoever. However, I've learned as much as I can about wiring a home in a short time and rewired my own home and had it pass inspection. Now I am trying to think of things I could have done better/cheaper/quicker as I'd like to do it again on my next house and I am continuing to learn as much as I can as I want to be 100% certain everything I've done is safe and sound as I don't trust inspectors, nor do I trust half the bozos out there calling themselves electricians. I already see you guys are not in the bozo category and I respect your expertise and am fully willing to take a beating, as long as I learn and get the correct information.
> 
> With that said, let me further elaborate on the reasoning for my question. I ran 8 circuits up into the attic and in order to do so I had to rip down a whole wall of drywall in one of the upstairs bedrooms such that i could run two cables up each wall cavity and had to rip down lots of drywall downstairs to even get the cables up to the bedroom wall. I'm trying to figure out if there was a better way such that I wouldn't have had to rip down so much drywall or use so much wire. How do you guys normally handle this without tearing down half the drywall and using the minimal amount of wire? Thanks again for any help!


it's a little late, but to answer your question yes, there was a much better way to do it. It would have been to call someone that's qualified to rewire a house. I am willing to bet you did a horrible job and there will be a ton of future problems and headaches because of YOU.


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually I spent a huge amount of time making sure everything was run neatly and properly stapled and even ripped out entire circuits i ran and re-did them with new new wire just to make sure it was done right. Not even considering the huge amount of time this took me, I probably spent more on materials alone than it would have cost me to hire someone since i wasted so much wire re-doing things but I wanted to learn. Forgive me for wanting to learn and thank you so much for the constructive criticism!


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

post pics or lock the thread :thumbup:


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

Unfortunately I don't think I took many pics with the walls open but I'll see what I have and can also upload the diagrams I drew to get the permit. Won't be able to do that till some time this weekend though.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Bkessler said:


> it's a little late, but to answer your question yes, there was a much better way to do it. It would have been to call someone that's qualified to rewire a house. I am willing to bet you did a horrible job and there will be a ton of future problems and headaches because of YOU.[/QUOTE
> 
> An E C would have been known how to do the job properly. And the BOZO quote was uncalled for. Want to see a CHEAP BOZO..... Look in a mirror.


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

sorry but the bozo comment is 100% accurate and i said you guys don't fall into that category. I had FOUR different LICENSED electricians come out to offer advice up front and check my work afterwods and not one of them had a ****ing clue what he was talking about and each one told me things that I already knew was 100% wrong or went and looked up the code and consulted with others to prove they were wrong. The one I thought may actually have a clue I hired to do the panel/service cable and when i had everything inspected, all my wiring passed, and the inspector failed FOUR different things with the panel/service!


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

Your anger is misplaced. I went to the extreme of learning as much as i could myself to ensure everything was done safe and up to code. Meanwhile, these LICENSED electricians are out there wiring up homes and offices everyday and putting people in danger because they are morons who shouldn't be allowed to replace a light bulb and God knows how in the world their work is passed by inspectors!


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

PhillyRyan said:


> Your anger is misplaced. I went to the extreme of learning as much as i could myself to ensure everything was done safe and up to code. Meanwhile, these LICENSED electricians are out there wiring up homes and offices everyday and putting people in danger because they are morons who shouldn't be allowed to replace a light bulb and God knows how in the world their work is passed by inspectors!


The guys funny too, :laughing:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

PhillyRyan said:


> Your anger is misplaced. I went to the extreme of learning as much as i could myself to ensure everything was done safe and up to code. Meanwhile, these LICENSED electricians are out there wiring up homes and offices everyday and putting people in danger because they are morons who shouldn't be allowed to replace a light bulb and God knows how in the world their work is passed by inspectors!



So you researched on the internet (all true info there) for a few weeks or months, now you are in a position to bash licensed electricians?:whistling2:


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not bashing. Each one of them told me one or more things I KNEW to be wrong. I went to the 800+ page NEC, found the appropriate section, and PROVED they were wrong. Sorry but is the NEC not official enough? Excuse me for being so ignorant.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

NEC+ Laptop = Licensed electrician? :bangin:


Get us those pics


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

PhillyRyan said:


> Your anger is misplaced. I went to the extreme of learning as much as i could myself to ensure everything was done safe and up to code. Meanwhile, these LICENSED electricians are out there wiring up homes and offices everyday and putting people in danger because they are morons who shouldn't be allowed to replace a light bulb and God knows how in the world their work is passed by inspectors!


 NOTE TO ANYONE THINKING ABOUT BECOMING A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN.

FORGET IT. JUST BUY A RED NOSE AND ENROLL IN CLOWN SCHOOL.:jester:

OPTION B. BECOME an E E then, you will know everything, and live happily ever after.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

PhillyRyan said:


> I'm not bashing. Each one of them told me one or more things I KNEW to be wrong. I went to the 800+ page NEC, found the appropriate section, and PROVED they were wrong. Sorry but is the NEC not official enough? Excuse me for being so ignorant.


Now that I know that you were talking about the OTHER bozos I'll give an answer. Yes, there are a few things you could have done differently. Possibly fishing through the walls would have saved your drywall. As Shunk said, No panel in the attic. Things like that need to be readily accessible. The four electricians you consulted were "different" you said. I would not consult them ever again.


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

Thank you riveter for an actual answer and not pointless bashing to prove how far superior you are as several others on this board think they are. Can you point me to any good references that give good examples of rewires, preferably with lots of pics? All the books out there seem to be geared mostly towards new construction.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

PhillyRyan said:


> Thank you riveter for an actual answer and not pointless bashing to prove how far superior you are as several others on this board think they are. Can you point me to any good references that give good examples of rewires, preferably with lots of pics? All the books out there seem to be geared mostly towards new construction.


Most of these guys know more about residential than I do. With a little respect you can coax a lot of information out of them. They don't mean any harm. Electricians are just sensitive because we are so intelligent. Now, if you want to learn about power sa..........Never mind.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I guess I am sensitive because doing residential service I quickly learned that,
the original systems usually never fails,
when ever there is something that's dangerous, it is usually done by what I have kindly termed a "non electrician". 
I've learned that engineers are usually terrible electricians, partly because they think they above making a mistake and they have no experience. 
Knowing the code book, passing inspections and having a safe system are three entirely different things.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bkessler, I think I know what you mean. Even the knob and tube I've come up against is in really good shape if it has not been messed with. I have engineers in my family...I'm not one, but they do think on a different level but mostly they will accept information from a more knowledgeable person, and maybe sometimes don't phrase the question in a fashion that we don't take offense. Give the guy another chance.:thumbsup:


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes there's no doubt the non-electricians and homeowners are almost always to blame for unsafe extensions to the original system and this project has given me much more appreciation for a good and knowledgable electrician. On the surface it seems not too hard but there's a crap load of code to know and many little things to know that can only come with lots of experience, hence why i came here to learn more so i can give myself extra reassurance i did this job right and to be that much more informed for my next house, which i will mostly likely hire someone for, but want to be informed enough to understand everything they do and make sure they do it right. Going up and down ladders and crawling around in attics is only fun for so long. I figured it'd be much quicker and easier to ask the pros on here than to read that horrible monster of a code book and have to try to decipher it myself. It would probably take me a year just to get through that sucker. And i trust info here much more than a diy forum, where it's most likely just a bunch of other idiots like me who THINK they have a clue but don't actually do this stuff for a living


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

PhillyRyan said:


> Yes there's no doubt the non-electricians and homeowners are almost always to blame for unsafe extensions to the original system and this project has given me much more appreciation for a good and knowledgable electrician. On the surface it seems not too hard but there's a crap load of code to know and many little things to know that can only come with lots of experience, hence why i came here to learn more so i can give myself extra reassurance i did this job right and to be that much more informed for my next house, which i will mostly likely hire someone for, but want to be informed enough to understand everything they do and make sure they do it right. Going up and down ladders and crawling around in attics is only fun for so long. I figured it'd be much quicker and easier to ask the pros on here than to read that horrible monster of a code book and have to try to decipher it myself. It would probably take me a year just to get through that sucker. And i trust info here much more than a diy forum, where it's most likely just a bunch of other idiots like me who THINK they have a clue but don't actually do this stuff for a living




What township are you in? I'm curious as to how you got a permit pulled without a license or insurance.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

PhillyRyan said:


> I'm not bashing. Each one of them told me one or more things I KNEW to be wrong. I went to the 800+ page NEC, found the appropriate section, and PROVED they were wrong. Sorry but is the NEC not official enough? Excuse me for being so ignorant.


What did they tell you and what article did you refer to to prove them wrong?

I have a hard time believing you outwitted a licensed electrician.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> What did they tell you and what article did you refer to to prove them wrong?
> 
> I have a hard time believing you outwitted a licensed electrician.


FOUR licensed electricians he outwitted. Don't sell him short.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> FOUR licensed electricians he outwitted. Don't sell him short.


In his defense, he did say they were different.


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

SlickVick - There is many localities that allow a howeowner to pull a permit and do the work themselves on their own home. You were not aware of this!?

Magnettica - I'm not going to go re-find the sections but I'll give some examples:

1) Telling me no need for GFCI in garage.
2) Telling me multiple bathrooms could be on same circuit.
3) Telling me kitchen and family room outlets could be on same circuit.
4) Telling me I wired my three ways wrong and they'd never work, then I proceeded to demonstrate they do in fact work and said "surprise they work" and watched him spend 10 minutes being confused
5) Telling me really dumb ways to route the wires
6) Telling me I could put one massive bundle of cables up through a stud cavity
7) Having no clue how to fix the wiring on a gas boiler

I could probably go on... Then the guy who did the panel/service didn't strip any of the romex sheeth off inside the panel, totally forgot about ground rods, then used the wrong connector on the ground rods, didn't leave enough cable for a drip loop on the service line, .... 

Convinced yet? The fact these guys are out there is effin scary. These were all friends of friends. One of them was a brand new licensee so I give him a bit of a pass, another one had a license but was really an alarm system guy so i guess he gets a pass, another had 30 yrs in the business and was retired but really did line work and not residential, and the guy that did the panel/service is actively out there and supposedly has 25 yrs experience, but again apparently he does RV campgrounds and not residential but i would think you'd still have a ****ing clue how to do a panel. Moral of the story: make sure the guy specializes in residential and don't hire friends or friends of friends! I would have thought if you could handle line work or commercial work, you'd know a thing or two about residential but apparently not!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *PhillyRyan*,SlickVick - There is many localities that allow a howeowner to pull a permit and do the work themselves on their own home. You were not aware of this!?


Duh, I know. But I don't think there's one township that would allow a total rewire by an unlicensed, uninsured homeowner. Think insurance issues. 




> 1) Telling me no need for GFCI in garage.


Depends, what's the outlet for?



> 2) Telling me multiple bathrooms could be on same circuit.


They can be.



> 3) Telling me kitchen and family room outlets could be on same circuit.


Does your family room act as a dining room?



> 4) Telling me I wired my three ways wrong and they'd never work, then I proceeded to demonstrate they do in fact work and said "surprise they work" and watched him spend 10 minutes being confused


Did you switch the neutrals?



> 5) Telling me really dumb ways to route the wires


Eh, maybe he thought your way was dumb? You know what they say about opinions......



> 6) Telling me I could put one massive bundle of cables up through a stud cavity


Though a violation, it's a common practice.



> 7) Having no clue how to fix the wiring on a gas boiler


Was this the alarm guy. (note; "alarm guys" are not electricians.)



> I could probably go on... Then the guy who did the panel/service didn't strip any of the romex sheeth off inside the panel, totally forgot about ground rods, then used the wrong connector on the ground rods, didn't leave enough cable for a drip loop on the service line, ....
> 
> Convinced yet? The fact these guys are out there is effin scary. These were all friends of friends. One of them was a brand new licensee so I give him a bit of a pass,


Brand new license, what a drivers license.:whistling2:



> another one had a license but was really an alarm system guy so i guess he gets a pass,


Alarm guy's are not electricians. Their alarm guy's.



> another had 30 yrs in the business and was retired but really did line work and not residential


Lineman are not electricians, their lineman.



> , and the guy that did the panel/service is actively out there and supposedly has 25 yrs experience, but again apparently he does RV campgrounds and not residential


Have you ever seen what the installs look like at a campground.



> but i would think you'd still have a ****ing clue how to do a panel. Moral of the story: make sure the guy specializes in residential and don't hire friends or friends of friends! I would have thought if you could handle line work or commercial work, you'd know a thing or two about residential but apparently not!


I don't see one guy here that you hired as being an actual electrician. Commercial, residential, or otherwise.

If you would have hired a real electrician you wouldn't have had all the problems you had.


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## PhillyRyan (Aug 18, 2010)

"If you would have hired a real electrician you wouldn't have had all the problems you had."

Agreed


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Duh, I know. But I don't think there's one township that would allow a total rewire by an unlicensed, uninsured homeowner. Think insurance issues.


The way the law is written here a homeowner can do whatever they want electrically. No permits, no inspections.

However, no one can do plumbing work without a license. I here back in the day their union got that rule in on the grounds of sanitation and health. 

FWIW many people do their own plumbing as well. :laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> The way the law is written here a homeowner can do whatever they want electrically. No permits, no inspections.
> 
> However, no one can do plumbing work without a license. I here back in the day their union got that rule in on the grounds of sanitation and health.
> 
> FWIW many people do their own plumbing as well. :laughing:



I know that the homeowner in most places can do a lot of things on there own without a permit nor an inspection. But as far as I know a total gut & rewire is not on of them, well here locally anyway. But then again I could be totally wrong......


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I know that the homeowner in most places can do a lot of things on there own without a permit nor an inspection. But as far as I know a total gut & rewire is not on of them, well here locally anyway. But then again I could be totally wrong......


NJ is a different place, don't they want to regulate and tax every aspect of life? :jester:

Oh wait, you are in PA, never mind.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Bob's Badger said:


> Work Union Live Better, Keep America Strong with Unions


Looks like Bob has his stalker back.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

In my opinion homeowner's electrical permits are an unsafe thing to allow to happen. In America, I can see where this would happen and I am all for a landowner rights to how he takes care of his property. However, I believe that when those laws were brought about a person, or his decendents were expected to live there for the length of of eternity, or sometime close. In the real world, when you are selling the property at a later date and the buyer is expecting that the premises are as safe as can be reasonably expected, it is a different story. I have been mentioning the fact that I believe that at least, along with a title transfer of a property, an electrical inspection, as best as can be done without tearing up walls etc, should be mandatory.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> Bob Badger;NJ is a different place, don't they want to regulate and tax every aspect of life? :jester:


Yes, yes they do.



> Oh wait, you are in PA, never mind.


Eh, it doesn't matter. Where only separated by the Delaware River and connected by like a half dozen bridges. Most of South Jersey is basically a suburb of Philadelphia.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> In my opinion homeowner's electrical permits are an unsafe thing to allow to happen. In America, I can see where this would happen and I am all for a landowner rights to how he takes care of his property. However, I believe that when those laws were brought about a person, or his decendents were expected to live there for the length of of eternity, or sometime close. In the real world, when you are selling the property at a later date and the buyer is expecting that the premises are as safe as can be reasonably expected, it is a different story. I have been mentioning the fact that I believe that at least, along with a title transfer of a property, an electrical inspection, as best as can be done without tearing up walls etc, should be mandatory.


I just can't see not letting a man do what he wants in his own castle. On the other hand I sure can see not paying someone what they want for their house if the wiring is a mess or wanting to insure that house if the wiring is not up to code. I've also seen plenty of licensed "electricians" do really poor work.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I just can't see not letting a man do what he wants in his own castle. On the other hand I sure can see not paying someone what they want for their house if the wiring is a mess or wanting to insure that house if the wiring is not up to code. I've also seen plenty of licensed "electricians" do really poor work.


I won't dispute you on that. The new buyer COULD figure an electrical inspection in his offer for the house. But, even if the house is basically okay the service conductors should be checked for tightness because of the very real possibilities of STRAY VOLTAGES.


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## HAND (Jul 15, 2010)

PhillyRyan said:


> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post. I just got done rewiring my whole house but now thinking of ways I could have done it quicker, cheaper, better, etc. Does code allow a subpanel in the attic, even if there is no steps to the attic and the height at center is at most 6 ft? Also, what size panel would you recommend for this subpanel which would feed 4 average size bedrooms and two bathrooms? Appreciate any advice!
> 
> -Ryan


 Yes the code allows a panel in the attic if you observe all clearances and when the next person goes to the panel he or she will not fall through the ceiling when standing in front of the panel (provide a catwalk), you also have to provide access to the attic, lights, and a receptacle.
The smallest single phase panel is 40 amps but I think you can't get anything less than a 60 amp, also the feed breaker, the wire, and breakers for the subp.
Four average size bedrooms and two bathrooms means very little, you can have 8 recessed lights, a ceiling fan, and 8 half switched receptacles per each bedroom and even calculations will not save you on this load.
So after complying with the requirements do you think that this is better and cheaper than running 14/2 to the bedrooms, and 12/2 for the bathrooms?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I just can't see not letting a man do what he wants in his own castle.


I agree 100%, it is how America was built.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HAND said:


> Yes the code allows a panel in the attic


But it is a really stupid idea. :laughing:

Don't re-invent the wheel just run the home runs to the main panel location.

There will be no time in the future anyone will say 'Gee I am really glad this panel was hidden away in an attic.'


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree 100%, it is how America was built.


I agree with you on this subject but the next owner should be able to know that he is buying a property that is infrastructually safe.:thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

PhillyRyan said:


> I'm not an electrician. I do have a degree in electrical engineering but I don't use it on my job and even if i did, it would not make me qualified to be an electrician whatsoever.


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