# Public EV charging stations.



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Anybody have experience with picking out and setting up EV charging stations in a commercial setting? I have a customer with several gas stations and he is kicking around the idea to set up some EV charging stations if the money is there. It is in NY State in case programs and systems are location dependent.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i know that hotels on the interstate north of me have ev stations
but i havent seen them
my point being that the idea is gaining momentum

personally if i was on a trip that required a hotel, i wouldnt drive an ev


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

A strip mall right near me has a Tesla charging station. I am sure you get some traffic you wouldn't otherwise because Tesla owners can find the stations with the app but what does that do for the owner? I don't know if the markups are that great on the electricity. It's not going to be busy enough to generate the kind of traffic gas pumps do, where you make money on the corn nuts and fountain sodas they buy while they're fueling up.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> i know that hotels on the interstate north of me have ev stations
> but i havent seen them
> my point being that the idea is gaining momentum
> 
> personally if i was on a trip that required a hotel, i wouldnt drive an ev


Nor would I. EV are good for around town and no more than 50 miles from the house. Two days ago I was stuck in traffic and it was 92 degrees out. With an EV what would happen when the battery dies? With a gas powered truck I can walk or have someone run me a gallon of gas.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Hope he has a lot of space. Each charger has a car parked there for what an hour?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Can the grid support this increase on demand for electricity if EV's catch on like a virus?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> Can the grid support this increase on demand for electricity if EV's catch on like a virus?


Most people spend a pretty good amount of time in their cars. I think for most households, the cars consume more at least double the energy of their electric bill. So if you transfer all that car demand from the gas stations to the grid, the grid would have to support triple it's current capacity. 

Right now, in a lot of areas, it's straining in air conditioning season, so I doubt that without $trillions the grid could support all electric cars. 

And that's not considering the power plants, I doubt there's enough untapped capacity available there.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Don't get me wrong, I think EV's are great and I even considered getting one, ... maybe. 

But this whole energy concern needs a comprehensive plan. All of the fighting going on makes that impossible. I drive about 3,000 miles/year. My car is 5 years old and still has less than 15,000 miles. So for me, a few solar panels on my garage connected to my charging station might make sense. 

But most people don't understand how much power is in liquid fuel (gas and diesel) and how easy/cheap it is to move it around, store it, transfer it. It seems having cleaner burning vehicles is still the best "current" technology. I think we can move onto EV's in a big way, but we need better innovation in batteries and someone's going to have to beef up the grid. 

I think that will take government intervention and planning that goes way beyond the time we elect new leaders with old promises. So I don't think it's going to happen w/out a lot of problems and stumbling and bumbling.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Government intervention is what we have now in the USA. The person in the white house took us from energy independent to where we are now. After creating rules and laws which make it almost impossible to drill for new energy. Then he say to the oil companies your charging to much/ or its Putin's fault. Sorry the problem is in the white house. Selling off the strategic reserves has not lowered the price at the pump. Forcing people to chose between eating and traveling has.

Where I live the local grid, not talking about cross country can not handle more than 30% new electric cars in a given area. The transformers, and wires will not take it. One housing development has almost reached it capacity. It takes special permission from the POCO to add another car. This is a fairly new area of 2000 homes, from $300k to $600k started in 2010.

Short answer the people pushing the new green economy have their collective heads where the sun does not shine. 

Nissan tried it in Phoenix with the Leaf. Did most everything right. Contacted the city for fast tracking permits, choose a contractor with the manpower and then provided a non UL listed charger for the car. Non UL anything in permitted construction in Phoenix is a guaranteed red tag. (fail). Then there were the people buying cars with 60 amp services on their homes.
Getting a $4000 adder for the new car was a bit of a shock. Nissan to their credit would roll the cost of the service upgrade into the financing of the car. The program fell apart in about
4 months. Sad to see something so well though of hit the skids so fast.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

oldsparky52 said:


> Can the grid support this increase on demand for electricity if EV's catch on like a virus?


I would think EVs and combustion engine vehicles will rival each other the way electric appliances do with gas fired ones. Even if the market picks up and more people buy EVs it would probably average out and become a small increase in demand on the grid. I just don't see the legislation banning combustion engines working out at all. There's going to be a middle ground.

Also, considering you followed up and mentioned you drive less than 5k miles per year - I think THAT is the market for EVs, IMO. I would drive an EV in my town, but I wouldn't go cross country with it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Anybody have experience with picking out and setting up EV charging stations in a commercial setting? I have a customer with several gas stations and he is kicking around the idea to set up some EV charging stations if the money is there. It is in NY State in case programs and systems are location dependent.


Keep your eye on what Conedison contracts for in New York City, they’re going to be installing thousands of them on the public streets. If they’re smart they’ll make combined vehicle charging with smart phone charging and 5G network antennas, and have it all manufactured by magna flood in Amityville.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> A strip mall right near me has a Tesla charging station. I am sure you get some traffic you wouldn't otherwise because Tesla owners can find the stations with the app but what does that do for the owner? I don't know if the markups are that great on the electricity. It's not going to be busy enough to generate the kind of traffic gas pumps do, where you make money on the corn nuts and fountain sodas they buy while they're fueling up.


That’s probably why a station by me has about a dozen tesla charging stations, I’ve never seen but more than two of them using them at any given time.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldsparky52 said:


> Can the grid support this increase on demand for electricity if EV's catch on like a virus?


Whether it can or can’t… Isn’t our grid about 100 years old, and in dire need of updating even before EV’s came to be?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

oldsparky52 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think EV's are great and I even considered getting one, ... maybe.
> 
> But this whole energy concern needs a comprehensive plan. All of the fighting going on makes that impossible. I drive about 3,000 miles/year. My car is 5 years old and still has less than 15,000 miles. So for me, a few solar panels on my garage connected to my charging station might make sense.
> 
> ...


The average EV gets about 3.5 miles/kW. 3000 miles divided by 3.5 equals about 860 kW. If you were in Atlanta, three 300 watt modules would power your car.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

If Milwaukee made a cordless rechargeable electric car you’d all have one!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

LGLS said:


> If Milwaukee made a cordless rechargeable electric car you’d all have one!


And then you’ll all be bragging about how big the battery is… And then Dewalt will come out with their car, and then the whole Ford versus Chevy thing starts all over again…


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

As I walked around London and Paris, the ev chargers were scattered around on city streets and you could easily find them on google maps. Whole Foods, larger State rest areas with the restaurants are the common ones close to home.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I think the ev brand vs brand is already there.


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

SWDweller said:


> Government intervention is what we have now in the USA. The person in the white house took us from energy independent to where we are now. After creating rules and laws which make it almost impossible to drill for new energy. Then he say to the oil companies your charging to much/ or its Putin's fault. Sorry the problem is in the white house. Selling off the strategic reserves has not lowered the price at the pump. Forcing people to chose between eating and traveling has.


To be honest your government intervention is pretty weak. Around here we have basically one public utility for the whole province and it's at arm's length from the government. Some number of years ago the government decided that it was time to start thinking about EVs and made some plans and then went to talk to the utility and figured things out. This includes figuring out how to increase capacity by building new power plants or upgrading the existing infrastructure. I don't mean to say that everybody gets along nicely and it's all sunshine and rainbows but we have a system that works well and is positioned to effectively provide services in the future. 

The public utility's job is to provide a service and not make a return on investment so they actually have some incentive to be cooperative rather than just do whatever is best for them(aka make money). The government has recently passed laws that ban new gas powered heating in new constructions and new drilling for oil, as well as requiring the closure of existing drilling sites and making it so that existing gas powered heating systems over a certain age must be replaced with electric instead of repaired. All of this is fine because the utility knows these things are coming and plans accordingly.

Just a note that over that the US was a net importer of energy from 1960-2020. Even during the periods of being a net exporter there is still a very meaningful amount of energy imported so actual independence is a long ways away. You can see here U.S. energy facts - imports and exports - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I picked up a set of plans from the City of Phoenix some years ago. They were looking forward and wanted to set up 300 20 and 50 amp charging stations in down town. Down town is all concrete and pavement. With street parking meters. The sidewalks are public but that is about all that is other than the streets.
I was excited and looked closer and found no calculations for these stations. I called the engineer and asked where, what plot of land was the electrical distribution going to be installed.
Silence, had not thought of that. Don't you just run wires under ground and connect it up?
Sure, as long as there are breakers for this new load your creating. 
I waited for a couple of days doing other work and walked in to the office and my girl friday told me the City had called and wanted the plans returned. Seems some one put the chargers before the source.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

aidonius said:


> To be honest your government intervention is pretty weak. Around here we have basically one public utility for the whole province and it's at arm's length from the government. Some number of years ago the government decided that it was time to start thinking about EVs and made some plans and then went to talk to the utility and figured things out. This includes figuring out how to increase capacity by building new power plants or upgrading the existing infrastructure. I don't mean to say that everybody gets along nicely and it's all sunshine and rainbows but we have a system that works well and is positioned to effectively provide services in the future.
> 
> The public utility's job is to provide a service and not make a return on investment so they actually have some incentive to be cooperative rather than just do whatever is best for them(aka make money). The government has recently passed laws that ban new gas powered heating in new constructions and new drilling for oil, as well as requiring the closure of existing drilling sites and making it so that existing gas powered heating systems over a certain age must be replaced with electric instead of repaired. All of this is fine because the utility knows these things are coming and plans accordingly.
> 
> Just a note that over that the US was a net importer of energy from 1960-2020. Even during the periods of being a net exporter there is still a very meaningful amount of energy imported so actual independence is a long ways away. You can see here U.S. energy facts - imports and exports - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)


we have been an importer because the govt lets a small handful of people make a lot of noise and then listens to them
we have enough oil reserves untapped in the ground to be independent for centuries i think
our all bright govt has never tried to have the grid up graded, but they are now pushing ev's 

we dont let the brightest lead the herd, animals are smarter than us


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> we have been an importer because the govt lets a small handful of people make a lot of noise and then listens to them
> *we have enough oil reserves untapped in the ground to be independent for centuries i think*
> our all bright govt has never tried to have the grid up graded, but they are now pushing ev's
> 
> we dont let the brightest lead the herd, animals are smarter than us


I'm dubious about the 2nd sentence but agree with the rest.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

oldsparky52 said:


> I'm dubious about the 2nd sentence but agree with the rest.


its been a while since i read that ... and of course i cant find it now,
and of course it could have been a WAG about what we might be expected to find if we tried

but we do have huge amounts that are known
all up and down the east coast offshore, all thru alaska, many places on continent, some of them gigantic
the actual problem used to be that they were not cost effective at the then current price, so we bought from the arabs, etc
the problem now is politics, no company will invest because of the minimum possible 4 years of political stability, is not long enough for ROI

what we have left in produce-able reserves is about 50 years, coal is 110 years

what i cant prove but am certain of is that the price of electricity will soon go thru the roof, and the price of gas is already heading that way


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Charge point or juice bar imop


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> we have been an importer because the govt lets a small handful of people make a lot of noise and then listens to them
> we have enough oil reserves untapped in the ground to be independent for centuries i think
> our all bright govt has never tried to have the grid up graded, but they are now pushing ev's
> 
> we dont let the brightest lead the herd, animals are smarter than us


Don’t you think that since for many EV‘s that will be parked all throughout the day, that solar charging… Even if the solar panels are remotely located from the EV, is the way to go?

About a decade ago my county put up a brand new courthouse with some thing like 60 quart rooms, simultaneously, the federal government severed the eastern District Court which was located in Brooklyn New York, from Long Island and built another brand new courthouse right next to the one in the county built.

All of the parking lots are completely covered with shade shelters which are completely covered with solar panels. Both buildings are completely 100% energy independent for all of its heating and cooling. They even sell energy back to the grid, to offset the cost of power bills in other county facilities that don’t have solar. (Yet.)

Honestly, when you think about it, if every mall and strip shopping center parking lot was covered with solar panels which would provide shade , then everybody could plug their EV’s in underneath them and just gobble up all of that free energy. But this is neither with the electric utilities nor big oil want, is it?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

#10 is us, but old numbers (2016)










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Honestly, when you think about it, if every mall and strip shopping center parking lot was covered with solar panels which would provide shade , then everybody could plug their EV’s in underneath them and just gobble up all of that free energy. But this is neither with the electric utilities nor big oil want, is it?


I think shopping center parking lots are one of the places where solar generation makes sense because a solar grid over the cars actually adds value to the property, it gives the cars shelter from the elements and keeps the solar off the roof of the building (which is going to be a major headache when the roof needs replacement). 

But to charge the cars for commuters, you'd need like an acre of solar per car to recharge them by the end of their shift


oldsparky52 said:


> #10 is us, but old numbers (2016)
> View attachment 167226
> 
> 
> ...


Note that that's in proven oil reserves, that's not everything in the ground. 

Proven Reserves Definition (investopedia.com) 

There's also gas to consider ... especially since unless we warm up to new nuclear plants, most of the electricity we'd generate for increased electrical vehicle use would have to come from gas.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

LGLS said:


> Honestly, when you think about it, if every mall and strip shopping center parking lot was covered with solar panels which would provide shade , then everybody could plug their EV’s in underneath them and just gobble up all of that *free energy*.


No such thing.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Well people don't want to hear this, but we can't keep having population growth w/out running into resource wars.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

All of the Walmart's where I live have covered the parking structures with solar panels. Unfortunately most of the installs are orientated in the wrong direction for optimum collection.
Living in triple digit country (right now 98F and storms on the horizon) The majority of the commerical solar installs are up in the mountains where it rarely goes above 90F. Now that the tek is catching up and solar panels can be installed in the desert we are beginning to see some solar farms built. If the water problem does not get solved, from the Colorado River then a lot of farm land will become solar farms. What what we do not have is a decent way to store the power.


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## em158 (Jul 7, 2016)

oldsparky52 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think EV's are great and I even considered getting one, ... maybe.
> 
> But this whole energy concern needs a comprehensive plan. All of the fighting going on makes that impossible. I drive about 3,000 miles/year. My car is 5 years old and still has less than 15,000 miles. So for me, a few solar panels on my garage connected to my charging station might make sense.
> 
> ...


That is pretty damn low mileage. Up until a few years ago I was putting well over 30,000 miles a year on my work truck. Not my truck not my expense. 75-80 miles each way 5 days a week. My until retirement gig is only 60 miles roundtrip, So I'm still averaging about 15,000 miles a year, not counting miles on my personal vehicles.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

oldsparky52 said:


> Well people don't want to hear this, but we can't keep having population growth w/out running into resource wars.


They claim population growth is slowing and we will never hit 9 billion. Mostly because places like China and India are slowing.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

The four horsemen told me it was going to be 11 billion. But 9 billion would make sense when you add in fire, flood and locust.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am still trying to figure this out. From what I found a Level 2 public charger will provide 10 to 20 miles per hour of charging. The input is 40 amps at 240 volts, single phase. A level 3 public charger will provide 60 to 80 miles per 20 minute charge. 480 volts, 80 amps, 3 phase. How is this cost effective? The Level 2 with the extras and options is between $10,000 and $15,000.00 plus the installation and any service upgrade if needed. All require a service contract and the internet service for credit cards and stuff. How many EV charges would it take to pay this off? I don't even want to think how much the high speed DC charger cost. Who has a spare 80 amps 3 phase, 480 volts at their restaurant or service station? This is why I asked if anybody has experience with these.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Anything is possible when the government i pushing this and using your money to fund it! 🤑


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> All of the Walmart's where I live have covered the parking structures with solar panels. Unfortunately most of the installs are orientated in the wrong direction for optimum collection.
> Living in triple digit country (right now 98F and storms on the horizon) The majority of the commerical solar installs are up in the mountains where it rarely goes above 90F. Now that the tek is catching up and solar panels can be installed in the desert we are beginning to see some solar farms built. If the water problem does not get solved, from the Colorado River then a lot of farm land will become solar farms. What what we do not have is a decent way to store the power.


The temperature of the air has nothing to do with solar power. Solar even works in Alaska and the north pole and the South Pole. It even works in outer space what is the temperature is 0° kelvin.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

LGLS said:


> The temperature of the air has nothing to do with solar power. Solar even works in Alaska and the north pole and the South Pole. It even works in outer space what is the temperature is 0° kelvin.


The lower the module temperature, the higher the output. At -25 F, my modules make 150% of rated power.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

backstay said:


> The lower the module temperature, the higher the output. At -25 F, my modules make 150% of rated power.


Really? How is that possible 150%?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Because they are rated at STC and that temperature is 25c. One of my arrays is 2000 watts rated. My charge controller tells me the max it ever put out was 2990 watts.


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

LGLS said:


> Really? How is that possible 150%?


My grandfather did research on solar with ontario hydro back in the 80s. They sent equipment into the arctic and to morocco in the desert and apparently the panels in the arctic were much more productive because of the drastically reduced resistive losses from the copper.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

The easiest for a gas station or other small business is to work with one of the commercial charging companies. That way they deal with the equipment, with the billing, etc.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

aidonius said:


> My grandfather did research on solar with ontario hydro back in the 80s. They sent equipment into the arctic and to morocco in the desert and apparently the panels in the arctic were much more productive because of the drastically reduced resistive losses from the copper.


It's not the copper's conductance. The pv junction itself is more efficient at lower temperatures. There's been a number of research projects on cooling solar cells for increased efficiency, but it has never been worth the added cost and complexity. As it is, the power density of solar cells.has increased so rapidly and cost come down so fast its not really an issue anyway.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Public EV charging infrastructure is just NOT as important as many like to claim it is. 95% (or higher) of all EV charging is done at home, not at publicly available spots. Honestly, that's the best thing about EV ownership. The comments of grid capacity are also missing the impact that TOU rates have. No one charges during peak times if they don't have to, and they almost never have to. Demand response will also end up being more prevalent going forward, which will allow ev charging to be reduced or curtailed during peak power events. All these things combined actually results is a more stable grid, with EV charging being primarily done from available renewables when done during daytime off-peak times, or on cheap excess base-loads overnight on nighttime off-peak times. Current grid issues are not due to a lack of generation OR distribution capacity - they are due to a lack of grid control and stability because of huge swings in demand. Smart demand, such as smart evse's, help to improve that problem, not make it worse.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Anybody have experience with picking out and setting up EV charging stations in a commercial setting? I have a customer with several gas stations and he is kicking around the idea to set up some EV charging stations if the money is there. It is in NY State in case programs and systems are location dependent.



With the price of gas and government incentives it’s catching on here. The local utility has several new substations in the works over the next few years to help but I have no idea but hopefully they do as to where the extra generating capacity is going to come from. 
It’s a mostly rural area in my province with 2 small cities and a few dozen towns. Lots of solar going up and 3 wind farms are in operation. 
I have a 100 plus mile round trip commute to work every day. I can get work close to home but I’d be taking at least a 20% pay cut compared to where I’m at now. My 1/4 ton a few months ago was costing me around 800-1000/mo for gas just to go to work so I did trade it in for an ev. So far it’s working out great. It has around 200 miles of range give or take so once it gets cold again I still shouldn’t have to worry about a battery going dead before I get back home. It’s now costing me around a hundred a month for electricity for the ev. But no I would not take it on a road trip, commute to work daily and close to home errands it’s great but i could see it’s be very challenging to plan any kind of a long distance trip at this point. Another thing coming down the line is road tax for ev’s since there’s no tax collected for highways from home electricity. 
There’s going to be a pile of work from these in the very near future. A friend of mine bought a new Ford lightning, it has a 130kw battery and if he wants to charge it in 8 hours, he has to upgrade his service to 200A to run the 80A charger off a DP 100.
Another point brought up was income from public chargers. Here residential is billed 16c/kw and they’re charging users $20/hr for the Flo fast chargers. I’ve never used one yet but I’ve heard you can recharge a near dead battery to 80% in 30 minutes. No mention on how many kw the battery is. Say it’s a 60 kw battery that’d be about $10 worth of power for $10 so no markup yet but these are governments owned stations.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> The temperature of the air has nothing to do with solar power. Solar even works in Alaska and the north pole and the South Pole. It even works in outer space what is the temperature is 0° kelvin.


the hotter the air the less output
read the specs on any module you choose to look at
here we go again spouting about unknowns


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

CraziFuzzy said:


> It's not the copper's conductance. The pv junction itself is more efficient at lower temperatures. There's been a number of research projects on cooling solar cells for increased efficiency, but it has never been worth the added cost and complexity. As it is, the power density of solar cells.has increased so rapidly and cost come down so fast its not really an issue anyway.


When designing PV systems, you must consider the hottest and coldest temperatures. Inverter manufacturers have calculators that you plug the specific module into and temperatures. It’s called string sizing. Get your string of modules too short and your output isn’t high enough to make 240 volts. Too long and you over voltage the inverter(let the smoke out).

Couple the very cold with extremely clear air and the modules rock and roll. My highest outputs are in January. It’s just too bad the sun shines so few hours.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> the hotter the air the less output
> read the specs on any module you choose to look at
> here we go again spouting about unknowns


What do you mean “we?”


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CraziFuzzy said:


> The easiest for a gas station or other small business is to work with one of the commercial charging companies. That way they deal with the equipment, with the billing, etc.


Are these charging companies like the solar leasing companies where they design, set up and maintain the equipment? That sounds like something my customer would be interested in. That will be my job come Monday. 
Thank you.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Okay I'll ask a stupid question, but can't we just install a transformer on site at each gas station and provide one or two charging stations? All would be dependant on the Poco distribution to the gas station and the station's service size, correct? So this could just be rolled into all the other requirements franchisees need to meet to open new stores? My point in asking is that this seems very straightforward to me, so if a business wants to do it, I don't see why the hell not?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Public EV charging infrastructure is just NOT as important as many like to claim it is. 95% (or higher) of all EV charging is done at home, not at publicly available spots. Honestly, that's the best thing about EV ownership. The comments of grid capacity are also missing the impact that TOU rates have. No one charges during peak times if they don't have to, and they almost never have to. Demand response will also end up being more prevalent going forward, which will allow ev charging to be reduced or curtailed during peak power events. All these things combined actually results is a more stable grid, with EV charging being primarily done from available renewables when done during daytime off-peak times, or on cheap excess base-loads overnight on nighttime off-peak times. Current grid issues are not due to a lack of generation OR distribution capacity - they are due to a lack of grid control and stability because of huge swings in demand. Smart demand, such as smart evse's, help to improve that problem, not make it worse.


Charging at home seems the best and easiest way to go. My customer has several gas stations in destination areas. Tourism and shopping. He was kicking around the need for it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

ohm it hertz said:


> Okay I'll ask a stupid question, but can't we just install a transformer on site at each gas station and provide one or two charging stations? All would be dependant on the Poco distribution to the gas station and the station's service size, correct? So this could just be rolled into all the other requirements franchisees need to meet to open new stores? My point in asking is that this seems very straightforward to me, so if a business wants to do it, I don't see why the hell not?


last dec. a ford dealer in town had me upgrade his service to 400A from 200
i also installed two 80A chargers

ford inc. said he had to have two 80A chargers installed to keep his franchise

he also said he had to buy several thousand in special tools to work on ev's, plus send a few guys to a school to learn to use them


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> last dec. a ford dealer in town had me upgrade his service to 400A from 200
> i also installed two 80A chargers
> 
> ford inc. said he had to have two 80A chargers installed to keep his franchise
> ...


If they’re safe and reliable they’re actually fun to drive, instant torque and they will set you back in your seat pretty good especially the performance minded ones. All I have is a little Chev bolt. Has a new battery from the recall and wasn’t overly expensive but it means business when you pull out to pass a car.,


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Charging at home seems the best and easiest  way to go. My customer has several gas stations in destination areas. Tourism and shopping. He was kicking around the need for it.


Honestly, if I was driving to a 'destination', and needed to charge for the return trip, I'd rather the charging be at the 'destination' than at a service station. Looking long term, I'm positive you will see more and more slow/shared capacity charging systems at tourist destinations and workplaces than fast stations at service stations. The time I want to spend at a service station isn't long enough to want to charge there - but Disneyland, for instance, has 100+ charging stations in their parking garage (and are constantly adding more). They aren't fast chargers, because they don't need to be - they are networked together so they share out the available current amongst them. They are from a thrid party (like I was describing earlier). In their case, ChargePoint. They have a section on their website for businesses wanted to get in contact with them.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

https://www.chargepoint.com/blog/7-considerations-successful-ev-charging-site-design-fuel-and-convenience-retail-locations


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

ohm it hertz said:


> Okay I'll ask a stupid question, but can't we just install a transformer on site at each gas station and provide one or two charging stations? All would be dependant on the Poco distribution to the gas station and the station's service size, correct? So this could just be rolled into all the other requirements franchisees need to meet to open new stores? My point in asking is that this seems very straightforward to me, so if a business wants to do it, I don't see why the hell not?


It is choosing the right equipment with options and the servicing of the equipment that's the big question. How to set up for credit card or other payment options. It seems most equipment companies want to make it easy for installations but the first time person has to know what questions to ask and where to look. Crazi suggested to contact a company that does the turnkey set ups.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

what i am wondering about is ....
will thieves figure out they can move your charger from your car to theirs
i suppose it could be set up so that the charger turns off at disconnect and wont turn back on till another c.card is put in
but still i wonder about it

they have found ways to hack every thing else lol


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Honestly, if I was driving to a 'destination', and needed to charge for the return trip, I'd rather the charging be at the 'destination' than at a service station. Looking long term, I'm positive you will see more and more slow/shared capacity charging systems at tourist destinations and workplaces than fast stations at service stations. The time I want to spend at a service station isn't long enough to want to charge there - but Disneyland, for instance, has 100+ charging stations in their parking garage (and are constantly adding more). They aren't fast chargers, because they don't need to be - they are networked together so they share out the available current amongst them. They are from a thrid party (like I was describing earlier). In their case, ChargePoint. They have a section on their website for businesses wanted to get in contact with them.


this would be where a "truck stop casino" and other stores and so forth make money on impulse buying out of boredom

i dont know who else has them but louisiana does. usually found at a large gas station that also caters to truckers (diesel pumps with large access-ways, showers, fast food, etc.)


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

ohm it hertz said:


> Okay I'll ask a stupid question, but can't we just install a transformer on site at each gas station and provide one or two charging stations?


$$$$$

The PUCO around here would want more than $50,000 to set a new pad-mount pot to supply a few chargers even if it were located right under existing overhead lines. Plus, the installing contractor would want another $30,000 or so to get it up and running.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

micromind said:


> $$$$$
> 
> The PUCO around here would want more than $50,000 to set a new pad-mount pot to supply a few chargers even if it were located right under existing overhead lines. Plus, the installing contractor would want another $30,000 or so to get it up and running.


sad but true
my poco wants about $6000.00 just to extend a single primary line by one more pole


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Some utility companies keep their rates low by charging large on extra items or they create other fees.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Some PUCOs are owned by a billionaire who demands double-digit returns on his investment.......like the one around here.........


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

I did some work for one of the owners of a large chain of gas stations. They have tesla charging stations at some if their stores. When I asked him about hoe that all worked, he told me that another company installed them and handled all the charging, and paid them a small connection fee every time someone plugged in. I assume it made the most sense for them, because they are a very successful company.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Some utility companies keep their rates low by charging large on extra items or they create other fees.


trouble is they arent lower, the rate has been steadily climbing since mid last year
or course they are still paying for nawleans last hurricane, and therefor so are we


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> what i am wondering about is ....
> will thieves figure out they can move your charger from your car to theirs
> i suppose it could be set up so that the charger turns off at disconnect and wont turn back on till another c.card is put in
> but still i wonder about it
> ...


Most do NOT use credit cards directly, however - most are either app-based or use an RFID card, which is why I suggest going with one of the large charging infrastructure companies, as EV drivers who make a habit of driving further than their range are likely to have a number of these RFID cards in the glove box.

Pretty sure all commercial chargers stop the session when disconnected, and won't start supplying power again until a new activation is done - that and I believe some EVs actually lock the plug in when the car is locked (similar to gas door locks). Sadly, this is because there are 'certain' members of the community that for some reason think electric cars are a threat to existence and will unplug cars when they see them charging - because they themselves are 'special'... I believe a number of them have already commented in this thread...


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Forge Boyz said:


> I did some work for one of the owners of a large chain of gas stations. They have tesla charging stations at some if their stores. When I asked him about hoe that all worked, he told me that another company installed them and handled all the charging, and paid them a small connection fee every time someone plugged in. I assume it made the most sense for them, because they are a very successful company.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


So basically they leased the parking spots for the connection fee they get. Development and utilities are on the lessee. Plus they get store traffic. Sounds like a sweet deal for the store.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

oldsparky52 said:


> So basically they leased the parking spots for the connection fee they get. Development and utilities are on the lessee. Plus they get store traffic. Sounds like a sweet deal for the store.


Yeah - pretty sure that is the normal business arrangement for them.

A great example of a roadside stop with charging for impulse buys would be Eddie World in Yermo, CA. About halfway between LA and Vegas in the middle of the desert. Massive candy store/food court with the area's largest gas station and an impressive amount of tesla superchargers AND ChargePoint chargers. EddieWorld – Gas, Food & Snacks


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## em158 (Jul 7, 2016)

Almost Retired said:


> last dec. a ford dealer in town had me upgrade his service to 400A from 200
> i also installed two 80A chargers
> 
> ford inc. said he had to have two 80A chargers installed to keep his franchise
> ...



I've known a few Car dealership owners over my lifetime. I've never met a poor one. They're a lot like the gas station owners that swear they make 2 cents a gallon right before climbing in their Cessna to go hunting or golfing.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> last dec. a ford dealer in town had me upgrade his service to 400A from 200
> i also installed two 80A chargers
> 
> ford inc. said he had to have two 80A chargers installed to keep his franchise
> ...


That’s par for the dealership course.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

em158 said:


> I've known a few Car dealership owners over my lifetime. I've never met a poor one. They're a lot like the gas station owners that swear they make 2 cents a gallon right before climbing in their Cessna to go hunting or golfing.


I think some of those dealerships had money before they had the dealership and needed a place to wash the money, I mean invest their money.


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## 1000vMike (Jul 28, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Anybody have experience with picking out and setting up EV charging stations in a commercial setting? I have a customer with several gas stations and he is kicking around the idea to set up some EV charging stations if the money is there. It is in NY State in case programs and systems are location dependent.


I can’t help with the type of charging stations to use but I know many different companies have come to us to purchase a variety of insulated hand tools and insulated gloves.


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## poncho144 (Apr 7, 2018)

SWDweller said:


> Government intervention is what we have now in the USA. The person in the white house took us from energy independent to where we are now. After creating rules and laws which make it almost impossible to drill for new energy. Then he say to the oil companies your charging to much/ or its Putin's fault. Sorry the problem is in the white house. Selling off the strategic reserves has not lowered the price at the pump. Forcing people to chose between eating and traveling has.
> 
> Where I live the local grid, not talking about cross country can not handle more than 30% new electric cars in a given area. The transformers, and wires will not take it. One housing development has almost reached it capacity. It takes special permission from the POCO to add another car. This is a fairly new area of 2000 homes, from $300k to $600k started in 2010.
> 
> ...


So, I guess you are inferring that the 2016 to 2020 rein of a bonafide idiot was just marvelous, eh?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

poncho144 said:


> So, I guess you are inferring that the 2016 to 2020 rein of a bonafide idiot was just marvelous, eh?


When calling someone an idiot please give examples and not just opinion.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> When calling someone an idiot please give examples and not just opinion.


That's completely off topic, and far too extensive.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Gas must not be $5 a gallon where you live.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

There are plenty of free public chargers out there. I have four level 2 chargers at my work. It’s not a busy area so there is not a lot of traffic but there is usually at least one car parked there all the time.
We have 10kw of solar on our roof that is grid tied as well, we get a check from OPG for what we produce. Easily covers what we spend for the chargers.

Also a great advertisement.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Train stations all over Long Island have them too.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

They are certainly everywhere out west where I'm at as well. But most are not used very often, certainly not 'regularly', as they are there for the exception, because the norm for most EV owners is charging at home, where it is the cheapest (and often on solar).


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

My question is who is, and how are they going to test the pay to play metered charge stations? At this point you are sub-metering the electric utility for a profit. In Ohio, the County Auditor tests and seals fuel pumps, and scales used for sales. It won't be long until some person or group is screaming fraud at the charge station, and then the legislature will fumble around and make a mess out of the entire situation.

I suppose a younger man than me stands to make a nice living testing and calibrating charge stations to make certain they pass muster for the state and county officials. A KW in is exactly a KW out will be a very nice way to make a living as a business owner. 

While installing these stations will be good work, keeping them in specification, and in regulation will be where the real money is made. 

460's future business tip of the day.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

This one died by garbage truck before it could charge a single vehicle.


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## CraziFuzzy (Jul 10, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> My question is who is, and how are they going to test the pay to play metered charge stations? At this point you are sub-metering the electric utility for a profit. In Ohio, the County Auditor tests and seals fuel pumps, and scales used for sales. It won't be long until some person or group is screaming fraud at the charge station, and then the legislature will fumble around and make a mess out of the entire situation.
> 
> I suppose a younger man than me stands to make a nice living testing and calibrating charge stations to make certain they pass muster for the state and county officials. A KW in is exactly a KW out will be a very nice way to make a living as a business owner.
> 
> ...


Come on.. you're an electrician.. when was the last time the meter on your house was checked for calibration?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Come on.. you're an electrician.. when was the last time the meter on your house was checked for calibration?


I understand that, and wondered who would mention that fact, but even in a de-regulated state like Ohio, that's heavily regulated by the PUCO. The last thing AEP wants is any trouble with the PUCO, or bad press. 

What I'm saying is, you are becoming a utility yourself when you are selling a product that is supposedly metered and sold per KW when charging an EV battery, so it best be accurate.

It will be the wild west for a spell, then the state legislatures will pass laws to govern and regulate pay to play EV chargers. When you go to a filling station to buy gasoline, a gallon or liter shown on the pump face is a gallon or liter discharged out of the nozzle. Why is that, because the county auditors in Ohio sends out Deputy Auditors to test the pumps with calibrated cans periodically. 

For whatever reason people mostly trust the house meter, but filling stations and soon to be EV charge stations are kept at arms length in trust. 

A business opportunity exists to the right person who has, or can assemble the right test gear to put EV chargers under the microscope for annual or semi-annual test for government officials. If you can also calibrate the KW meter like scale people calibrate scales, you'll make serious money.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

460 Delta said:


> I understand that, and wondered who would mention that fact, but even in a de-regulated state like Ohio, that's heavily regulated by the PUCO. The last thing AEP wants is any trouble with the PUCO, or bad press.
> 
> What I'm saying is, you are becoming a utility yourself when you are selling a product that is supposedly metered and sold per KW when charging an EV battery, so it best be accurate.
> 
> ...


I think where the greatest error comes in is using multipliers on CT metering. I know of a utility that had a guy that set up a BUNCH of commercial services wrong. They were undercharging for a number of years. Imagine being the one to go around to all the customers and saying, "Um, sorry, but your electric bill is going up.


Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CraziFuzzy said:


> Come on.. you're an electrician.. when was the last time the meter on your house was checked for calibration?


Yea the scales at bakeries delis and food store registers all sealed by the county… and gas pumps,,, even the meters on home heating oil delivery trucks- but the electric company is a rabbit that watches its own lettuce?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> Yea the scales at bakeries delis and food store registers all sealed by the county… and gas pumps,,, even the meters on home heating oil delivery trucks- but the electric company is a rabbit that watches its own lettuce?


That statement is so obvious but few of us realize the truth to it.


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