# Service problems



## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

This is the before picture.

Hope everyone can see it!


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

The first thing I noticed is that the panel isn't sideways!:jester:

Pete


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

2 cables under 1 staples...it's gonna blow up for sure!


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

I can see it. What's the problem?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Someone left their meter there for you. Good find.:thumbsup:
Oh, and there are a few breakers in the off position, turn them back on.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

jw0445 said:


> I can see it. What's the problem?


Good that the picture can be seen.

No problem actually, I changed it to accommodate a renovation, and prove to the utility company that their pole mounted switch may be the problem. As it turned out, it was. Customer was loosing one leg intermittently. Long boring story! 

I will post the after picture later.

Borgi


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I thought that, in Canada, the main breaker had to be separated from the other breakers. Is this not always true


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I thought that, in Canada, the main breaker had to be separated from the other breakers. Is this not always true


Yes, is the short answer. 

I have both covers off in this picture. When I put the main cover on, it is seperate.

This is an approved service box/panel enclosure.

Hope I am saying that correctly.

Borgi


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Yes, is the short answer.
> 
> I have both covers off in this picture. When I put the main cover on, it is seperate.
> 
> ...


Yes, that makes sense. Thanks


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Guess im dense but what amperage is blue rated for? Never seen it..


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

theJcK said:


> Guess im dense but what amperage is blue rated for? Never seen it..


I have seen blue NM here in the states where I live, not much. Memory only brings me some tire company name. Can't think of it though.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Blue wire was mid 70's


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Blue wire was mid 70's


Who made it? I keep thinking it was a tire company name.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

No idea. never really cared. I still don't


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Blue was brought back here when we started using those frigging arc faults.
But quickly faded away again.
Blue was 14 gauge ,yellow 12, orange 10.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

AK_sparky said:


> 2 cables under 1 staples...it's gonna blow up for sure!


That's ok these days, as long as you comply with 12-508. I like using the big plastic ones. :thumbsup:

That's my meter, the breakers are off for troubleshooting. 

Borgi


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So what did you fix Borgi?


~CS~


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

So you say it's a split panel, it also your Canada Code that the branch circuits
can not be in the Main breaker area?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

chicken steve said:


> So what did you fix Borgi?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


I changed the panel. The service is fed from a pole switch, ( that was intermitently failing ). When utility would arrive and beat me to the pole switch, the problem went away.

We needed a new panel anyway for a reno. Then I was able to convince the utility to fix their switch. After two months of bullchit all was good! 

I will post the new panel later! 

Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

CADPoint said:


> So you say it's a split panel, it also your Canada Code that the branch circuits
> can not be in the Main breaker area?


Short answer. Yes. :thumbsup:

Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Morning:

I am surprised nobody pointed out that the conduit comes into the service at the top, and that there was no duct seal visible. No duct seal in the LB, I checked.

Originally the service came in overhead, when I got there the overhead was removed and fed from the pole underground. The meter is at the pole and I believe it always was.

Borgi


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Morning:
> 
> I am surprised nobody pointed out that the conduit comes into the service at the top, and that there was no duct seal visible. No duct seal in the LB, I checked.
> 
> ...


That's not required here


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

*new panel*










This is the new panel. Not completely finished, but close. The general, ( or whatever you want to call this new guy #3 ) has to move some plumbing equipment, and do some other work first.

Borgi


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

A brand new panel full of twins? And duct tape? That's horrible


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

mcclary's electrical said:


> A brand new panel full of twins? And duct tape? That's horrible


Not finished, plus, that's allowed here. 

Borgi


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

I just had an inspector give me crap about twins in a sub panel I did not touch:no:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> A brand new panel full of twins? And duct tape? That's horrible


Right? That looks aweful.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Not finished, plus, that's allowed here.
> 
> Borgi


Its allowed here also, but still horrible


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Tough crowd! 

I don't mind two cables under one staple. 

But, I appreciate the comments.

Borgi


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> I just had an inspector give me crap about twins in a sub panel I did not touch:no:



What do you mean twins?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

36 space panel?

Where is the main breaker?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> 36 space panel?
> 
> Where is the main breaker?


This is a 32/64 approved service/panel. The 100 amp main is in the top left, in it's own compartment. 

Borgi


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Hmacanada said:


> What do you mean twins?


Piggybacks.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Borgi said:


> This is a 32/64 approved service/panel. The 100 amp main is in the top left, in it's own compartment.
> 
> Borgi


I see 4 240 volt circuits.
I can see one is a stove and the other a dryer. That alone is 55 amp demand.

Here that panel would be considered overloaded with just a 100 amp main breaker.

The 110 volt circuits calculated by our jurisdiction would calculate to 78.25 amp demand.


:blink:


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Hmacanada said:


> What do you mean twins?


Twins
Tandems
Piggybacks


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> Twins
> Tandems
> Piggybacks


Came back back from my walk when it hit me! Twins. I will be the first to admit I am not up on the lingo here. 

What you call twins, I call space savers. I misunderstood, thought you guys meant two cables under one staple. Duhhhh! :laughing:

The customer is renovating, and they will need them. I have already done the prep work, calculations, what ever.

Maybe a good time to compare demand calculations in the two codes. NEC and CEC.

Borgi


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> I see 4 240 volt circuits.
> I can see one is a stove and the other a dryer. That alone is 55 amp demand.
> 
> Here that panel would be considered overloaded with just a 100 amp main breaker.
> ...


I have no idea what your area does but the size of the breakers doesn't mean a thing. Art. 220 gives us (NEC users) a means to calculate the load. I can have 50- 20 amp breakers and still be compliant. The calculated load on a home is always much less than we think.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Interesting that Siemens manufactures a _coverless_ panel of that size....


~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Interesting that Siemens manufactures a _coverless_ panel of that size....
> ~CS~



Yeah you don't see them here but I think the outer cover (door ) is more for aesthetics.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have no idea what your area does but the size of the breakers doesn't mean a thing. Art. 220 gives us (NEC users) a means to calculate the load. I can have 50- 20 amp breakers and still be compliant. The calculated load on a home is always much less than we think.


It's per local amendments.



> 1701.2 General Purpose Circuits. - The service conductors, feeder, and service equipment in single- and two-family dwelling units, for general purpose circuits shall have a capacity of not less than 10 amperes for each of the first six 120 volt 2-wire branch circuits; not less than 5 amperes for the next six 120 volt 2-wire branch circuits, and all other 120 volt 2-wire branch circuits 13 and over shall be computed at 3.5 amperes each.


And then we divide that by the number of phases.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Twins
> Tandems
> Piggybacks


Knew there was another, more technical name but slipped my mind.. hear piggybacks most often.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

theJcK said:


> Knew there was another, more technical name but slipped my mind.. hear piggybacks most often.


We use "piggyback" for the older style Square D's where one throw is behind the other.
"Tandem" for when they are side by each
"Slims" for the GE 1/2" breakers
I have only seen the term "Twins" used on this site.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> I see 4 240 volt circuits.
> I can see one is a stove and the other a dryer. That alone is 55 amp demand.
> 
> Here that panel would be considered overloaded with just a 100 amp main breaker.
> ...


Interesting!

Where this customer lives a 100 amp service is more than adequate. It's a fair size home, basement, main floor, upstairs main bedroom and ensuite. The calculated demand is ~ 60 amps.

Borgi


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Borgi said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Where this customer lives a 100 amp service is more than adequate. It's a fair size home, basement, main floor, upstairs main bedroom and ensuite. The calculated demand is ~ 60 amps.
> 
> Borgi


What are the other 2 220 volt breakers for? Water heater and AC condenser?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> What are the other 2 220 volt breakers for? Water heater and AC condenser?


There is no AC at all. No electric space heat of any kind. Without looking at the pic there is a water heater, stove and dryer. The DP 15 came with the panel kit, will be used for split.

Borgi


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Borgi said:


> There is no AC at all. No electric space heat of any kind. Without looking at the pic there is a water heater, stove and dryer. The DP 15 came with the panel kit, will be used for split.
> 
> Borgi


I am going by what we have here in the US.
Water heater = 4500 watt = 18.75 amps *125 % = 23.4375 amps
Stove = let's say 8 Kw = 33.33 amps.
Dryer = (according to nameplates I have seen) = 22 amps.

So just in 220 volt known circuits you already have about 79 amps. So 21 amps should handle the remaining?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Where this customer lives a 100 amp service is more than adequate. It's a fair size home, basement, main floor, upstairs main bedroom and ensuite. The calculated demand is ~ 60 amps.
> 
> Borgi


There are VERY FEW PLACES that a100 amp is adequate , let alone such a cold climate.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There are VERY FEW PLACES that a100 amp is adequate , let alone such a cold climate.


Here 100 amp will suffice when there are all gas appliances and the central air is under 3 ton. Basically a 1000 sq/ft house.


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## 1.21gigawatts (Jun 22, 2013)

Borgi,

How did you come up with 60A @ 240 1-PH as a calculated load ? 

Thanks


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

100 amp is plenty.

Long gone are the days when the man of the house would be doing laundry, have a turkey in the oven 4 stove burners going full blast while doing the vacuuming. at 6 in the evening with the Christmas lights on and of course every light, tv, vid game going crazy with the 8 kids and their 7 friends.

You see what you guys sound like. The above ain't happening here. Here is Alberta, Oil country, Natural gas, Borgi is here.

New subdivision 100 amp main to a house. You want more you are kissing butt from the poco. Pedestal has 125 amp fuses in it and it runs 3 houses.

There you go... 3 houses burning turkey, washing and drying, etc. etc. etc. all toggling like crazy drawing 30 amps on those 125 amp pedestal fuses at any given time.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

daveEM said:


> 100 amp is plenty.
> 
> Long gone are the days when the man of the house would be doing laundry, have a turkey in the oven 4 stove burners going full blast while doing the vacuuming. at 6 in the evening with the Christmas lights on and of course every light, tv, vid game going crazy with the 8 kids and their 7 friends.
> 
> ...


Cool story now let's get back on topic.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Here 100 amp will suffice when there are all gas appliances and the central air is under 3 ton. Basically a 1000 sq/ft house.


I haven't even touched 100 amp service in years, let alone install one new. 


Oh wait, I installed 100 amp service on a cell tower that about 40 amps of load.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Borgi, buddy, I'm going to give it to you straight here. That panel looks awful.

Where's the factory panel directories, you know the ones with the numbers and lines?

On the bright side, you did support "Made in Canada" Siemens  . Good on ya'.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I haven't even touched 100 amp service in years, let alone install one new.
> 
> 
> Oh wait, I installed 100 amp service on a cell tower that about 40 amps of load.


I'll normally put in 200 amp because it isn't much more money but the splash n dash resi guys here throw in 100 amp all the time. Once the basement is developed you can easily have 4000 or 5000 square feet with a fully loaded kitchen and air conditioning and that 100 amp main won't even think of tripping.

No electric space heating around here.


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

100 amp with gas heating is lots.
I have 3600 sq ft here with gas cook stove , water heater. Electric clothes dryer ,A/C .Even a shop off of that .
Never have tripped the main .
You never use everything at once.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

99cents said:


> Borgi, buddy, I'm going to give it to you straight here. That panel looks awful.
> 
> Where's the factory panel directories, you know the ones with the numbers and lines?
> 
> On the bright side, you did support "Made in Canada" Siemens  . Good on ya'.


That's ok. It's not finished. The customer cleaned up while I was gone one day and lost the original panel screws, and threw out the factory label. I don't like the conduit feeding the panel, or that everything is crooked, but I am making the best of a bad situation. 

There are many things I plan to change next summer, including removing the old overhead conduit fed from the crappy pole switch via underground. For now it looks fine and much safer than when I arrived.

Plus, I usually put my fancy panel labels on when the job is complete. After the customer stops making changes. 

I do appreciate your input.

Borgi


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Borgi said:


> That's ok. It's not finished. The customer cleaned up while I was gone one day and lost the original panel screws, and threw out the factory label. I don't like the conduit feeding the panel, or that everything is crooked, but I am making the best of a bad situation.
> 
> There are many things I plan to change next summer,
> Borgi


Good. 

Allow a few hours for the panel. It's what everybody sees when the job is done. I usually set up a shelf or use my 4 foot to put my coffee on, cookies, etc.  Then spend about 2/3 of the day doing the panel.  Then I go home.

I don't worry about the inside except I don't have any extra wire in there. Can't move a breaker unless you add wire and a marrette :thumbsup: I've done 26,000 panels and can't remember moving a breaker.

Hard to make the wiggly stuff look great, still 'A' for effort is good. A level can be handy for the panel and pipe.

This may or mat not be one of my panels...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I like neat panels and spend my time making them neat.

Most of the AHJ's won't pick apart a clean neat job , so much as one that is not.

As to demand load calcs, anyone can ring up a drag/drop on line calc. 

You'd be surprised how many single and multi family resi dwellings trump the math....

~CS~


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hope you all can see this ok. I'll quickly run through it.

Basic load for a house based on square metres. ( Canada is metric ). 5000 watts for first 90 square metres, another 1000 watts for every 90 square metre portion thereafter.

Space heating as per section 62, ( CEC electric heat section ), plus AC loads with applicable demand factors. ( normally you use the higher value as only one will be on at a time )

Electric range, I use 8000 watts if i don't know the actual value.

Electric tankless water heaters at 100% demand. Don't see this much.

Electric vehicle charging equipment at 100% demand. ( depends on building codes in your jurisdiction )

Any other loads over 1500 watts with applicable demands.

100 A where the floor area , not counting basement, is over 80 sq metres
60 A where the floor area, not counting basement, is less than 80 sq metres

Choose the higher of either your calculation, or the minimums regarding sq metres.

Clear as mud. :thumbsup: that is why many homes in my area are 100 amp.

Borgi


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

It's metric stuff like that that pisses everybody off.

I like metric temp. 0 degrees water gets hard.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

daveEM said:


> It's metric stuff like that that pisses everybody off.
> 
> I like metric temp. 0 degrees water gets hard.


Agreed! Don't want to get too political, but metric is one of Trudeau's big mistakes.

Kinda funny the code uses metric, but when you get a permit they use sq feet. 

Borgi


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I think the "ugly" that everyone is referring to is the fact that you knew what circuits you had and what might be added. So why would you put in a lesser space panel and use "twins" instead of using a greater space panel?

Sometimes space is a problem when installing a panel and you have to go smaller. But from your pics there is plenty of room for a larger panel.
You call the "twins" "space savers". You wouldn't need the "space savers" if you just put in the larger panel to start with.

The "space savers" come later when they add umpteen hundred things and fill up the panel.:thumbsup:

Also, here you could buy 3 -4 full size breakers for what one tandem costs in certain brands. A 20/20 C-H BR breaker costs $19 and a full size 20A BR cost $3 and some change.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

A Little Short said:


> I think the "ugly" that everyone is referring to is the fact that you knew what circuits you had and what might be added. So why would you put in a lesser space panel and use "twins" instead of using a greater space panel?
> 
> Sometimes space is a problem when installing a panel and you have to go smaller. But from your pics there is plenty of room for a larger panel.
> You call the "twins" "space savers". You wouldn't need the "space savers" if you just put in the larger panel to start with.
> ...


Actually, this panel was under $300, and that included many of the standard breakers. 

Yes, I know exactly what the customer wants, ( this week  ), and I am sure they will possibly need all the breakers at some point. I suggested only buying extra breakers as needed, but they insisted on filling the panel. Customer gets what the customer wants, usually! 

I only make suggestions as I am consulting, not the contractor. The customer wisely chose this panel. I have no issues with space savers, or filling the panel and having the spares turned off.

Every electrician, and or contractor may choose a different panel and other methods of helping a customer. That's fine by me as well.

Nothing wrong with any of my suggestions or the customers choices.

I do appreciate your input, it only leads to a safer electrical installation.

Borgi


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Borgi I like the space savers.
I use them all the time.
Makes no sense to me to fill the panel with the wide breakers, label everything properly, then hack it all up with minis later because they added circuits.
I don't know what the beef is with the minis , they work just fine .
Especially in resi.


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Now here is a lot of taboo mini,s


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hmacanada said:


> View attachment 41858
> 
> Now here is a lot of taboo mini,s


Nice. Very nice. Seen this one before.

Here comes the blue light debate! :laughing:

Borgi


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

Borgi said:


> Nice. Very nice. Seen this one before.
> 
> Here comes the blue light debate! :laughing:
> 
> Borgi


Don't be silly Borgi, everyone knows it's a K-Mart panel.:laughing:


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

The_Modifier said:


> Don't be silly Borgi, everyone knows it's a K-Mart panel.:laughing:



Kmart panel???


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Hmacanada said:


> Kmart panel???


Kmart used to have "blue light" specials in their stores. When you were in the store and saw the "blue light" flashing they were having a special on something in that area.

Translation: If a fairly large woman was behind you with a shopping cart, get out of the way or the "blue lights" might be "blue stars" circling your head!:laughing:


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