# Dumb People



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I love it when we get a call from a customer who says a motor is smoking that is running a chain. Hop in the truck, run over, the guys are already tearing the old motor out to swap it over. The manager comes over and says "Why didn't the overloads trip?" Open up the control cabinet, and there are 6 IEC contactors wired up with overload relays, but no wires going to the overload relay contacts! This was done before we took over servicing this facility, but now it has me concerned about what other ******ation these guys did. Why don't people understand that overload units don't work via magic, and that if you don't wire the contacts on the overload units, they don't fricken do anything. I have run into this more than once. While the guys were pulling the old motor off, we grabbed some wire and quickly wired the overload units in so they actually do things. The worst part is, my old man had gone over and helped replace that same motor when it burned up. He had looked in the cabinet and saw the overload was set right, but didn't actually notice that there weren't any wires going to the damned thing. I caught it within 15 seconds of opening the cabinet, so we were able to rectify the situation so it doesn't happen again. 

Honestly, most of the time I miss the NEMA starters with bimetallic overloads. Too many guys see the adjustment screw on solid state overloads and just crank it up to max, and then bitch when they burn up motors and have to replace them. For some reason they seem to think that the ounce of prevention of properly set overloads isn't worth the down time and cost of replacing motors. Just stupid.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

'Bimetallic overloads' things were so much simpler then, they took the human factor out of the equation as long as they were sized correctly.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 'Bimetallic overloads' things were so much simpler then, they took the human factor out of the equation as long as they were sized correctly.


You mean melting alloy overloads. (NEMA) Spring lever type.

Bimetallic is what he has. (IEC) Dissimilar metals bending to cause the trip. Thermal expansion.

Both can be changed. Bimetallic IEC with an adjustable setting. Or someone can come along and put in the wrong heaters in a NEMA starter.

https://support.industry.siemens.co...nd-solid-state-overload-relays?dti=0&lc=en-GB


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> You mean melting alloy overloads. (NEMA) Spring lever type.
> 
> Bimetallic is what he has. (IEC) Dissimilar metals bending to cause the trip. Thermal expansion.
> 
> ...


Any mechanical overloads as opposed to electronic means as long as they were "sized properly" as I said in my first post take the human adjustment factor out of play.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Forget the O/L's, I'd be more concerned with the ol' man. If he checked the O/L setting, but didn't notice the empty terminals, maybe he needs an eye exam, or a retirement home.
They say hearing is the first to go, that's not always the case.......... damn, I forgot what I was going to say..........


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Sometimes it's better to fire some customers. :shifty:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Sometimes it's better to fire some customers. :shifty:


As long as they don't try playing the blame game and keep the dollars coming they are better to keep, sometimes their employees mistakes can be very profitable.

I had an account at a large pool complex for the controls systems in the facility.

The pH sensors for the pools had to be cleaned weekly which they handled, during the cleaning process they had to keep the probes wet an often failed.

The probes cost us @$130 each and I would replace at least two a month, even after training each maintenance guy in how to properly clean the equipment.

Other than losing two of the original 7.5 hp pump motors to brownouts the rest of the repairs were always generated by their staff.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

You can't fix stupid... and you can't design products to overcome it either.

Adjustable OL relays have been around since before WWII... it's not something that only just happened. Old Square D, GE and C-H bimetal OLs had adjustment screws that changed the settings +-15%, even though you use a replaceable heater element. The ONLY ones that had no adjustment on them were Melting Alloy OL relays. But even then, I can't tell you how many times I came across starters that had the wrong heaters installed, often times with 2 or all 3 different from each other in the same unit!

My preference now is Solid State OLs, and once I set them, I put a dollop of red Loctite goo across one edge of the dial so that if someone tweaks it, the drop gets broken and tells you that it was tampered with. That discourages most idiots from doing it because it means they might get caught. A-B, Siemens and some others also have a little clear plastic window accessory that can go over the dial and the relay body has a little hasp on it, so you can put in a wire meter seal to prevent tampering.

Some of the more advanced SSOLs have a secret record kept inside of any changes and adjustments. I found that out once when someone tried to sue a supplier of mine because a 500HP motor burned up and their OL never tripped. The mfr took back the starter and OL relay from me, then produced a report saying that the OL protection had tripped 4 times in succession, followed by someone turning it off, right before the final meltdown.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> Honestly, most of the time I miss the NEMA starters with bimetallic overloads. Too many guys see the adjustment screw on solid state overloads and just crank it up to max, and then bitch when they burn up motors and have to replace them. For some reason they seem to think that the ounce of prevention of properly set overloads isn't worth the down time and cost of replacing motors. Just stupid.


This!!!!^^^^^ A thousand times......

Oh how I despise those idiotic IEC O/Ls. 

I can't think of now many times I've set the dial to the nameplate current then get a call and see the dial set as high as it will go and be blamed for burning up the motor. 

I've gone so far as to install an IEC contractor (we can't spend any more than we HAVE to) and use a heater-type O/L block. 

Very few maintenance guys can resist turing up the dial.......just a little, it won't hurt it.......


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

JRaef said:


> My preference now is Solid State OLs, and once I set them, I put a dollop of red Loctite goo across one edge of the dial so that if someone tweaks it, the drop gets broken and tells you that it was tampered with. That discourages most idiots from doing it because it means they might get caught.


This is a really good idea, next time I set a dial type O/L, I'm going to use it.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I love it when we get a call from a customer who says a motor is smoking that is running a chain. Hop in the truck, run over, the guys are already tearing the old motor out to swap it over. The manager comes over and says "Why didn't the overloads trip?" Open up the control cabinet, and there are 6 IEC contactors wired up with overload relays,* but no wires going to the overload relay contacts*! This was done before we took over servicing this facility, but now it has me concerned about what other ******ation these guys did. Why don't people understand that overload units don't work via magic, and that if you don't wire the contacts on the overload units, they don't fricken do anything. I have run into this more than once. While the guys were pulling the old motor off, we grabbed some wire and quickly wired the overload units in so they actually do things. The worst part is, my old man had gone over and helped replace that same motor when it burned up. He had looked in the cabinet and saw the overload was set right, but didn't actually notice that there weren't any wires going to the damned thing. I caught it within 15 seconds of opening the cabinet, so we were able to rectify the situation so it doesn't happen again.
> 
> Honestly, most of the time I miss the NEMA starters with bimetallic overloads. Too many guys see the adjustment screw on solid state overloads and just crank it up to max, and then bitch when they burn up motors and have to replace them. For some reason they seem to think that the ounce of prevention of properly set overloads isn't worth the down time and cost of replacing motors. Just stupid.


He didn't say Bi-metalic type, or the IEC with the dial adjusted too high.
See bold text above


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

joebanana said:


> Forget the O/L's, I'd be more concerned with the ol' man. If he checked the O/L setting, but didn't notice the empty terminals, maybe he needs an eye exam, or a retirement home.
> They say hearing is the first to go, that's not always the case.......... damn, I forgot what I was going to say..........


Nice guy you are


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I like the IEC manual motor protectors Allen Bradley makes. Then you have a means of disconnect as well as overload protection that kills the line voltage without needing to break the coil circuit through a set of NC contacts. 

Most manufacturers have them though.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

JRaef said:


> You can't fix stupid... and you can't design products to overcome it either.
> 
> Adjustable OL relays have been around since before WWII... it's not something that only just happened. Old Square D, GE and C-H bimetal OLs had adjustment screws that changed the settings +-15%, even though you use a replaceable heater element. The ONLY ones that had no adjustment on them were Melting Alloy OL relays. But even then, I can't tell you how many times I came across starters that had the wrong heaters installed, often times with 2 or all 3 different from each other in the same unit!
> 
> ...



I really like that red loctite idea. Definitely going to get me some. 

I also hear you on the wrong sized heaters. Once they are installed though, most people won't mess with them, unlike adjustable ones. When you have an 8 or 10A overload adjustment, messing around with that little screw can keep you rolling without paying an electrician to come out, at least until the motor burns up.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

joebanana said:


> Forget the O/L's, I'd be more concerned with the ol' man. If he checked the O/L setting, but didn't notice the empty terminals, maybe he needs an eye exam, or a retirement home.
> They say hearing is the first to go, that's not always the case.......... damn, I forgot what I was going to say..........


Meh, people make mistakes. Glancing at an O/L to check the setting, but not seeing if it was wired correctly, or wired at all, was a decent mistake. It was a high pressure situation since the line couldn't run without that motor running, so 10 dudes were standing around with nothing to do. Not wiring the god damned things to begin with is a much bigger one. 4 of the 6 overload units were tripped, and 1 wouldn't reset. Selling someone a cabinet, the contactors, overloads, and all associated wiring, and not testing everything when you wire it is a MUCH bigger mistake, in my opinion. That is downright incompetence or negligence.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> I really like that red loctite idea. Definitely going to get me some.
> 
> I also hear you on the wrong sized heaters. *Once they are installed though, most people won't mess with them, unlike adjustable ones.* When you have an 8 or 10A overload adjustment, messing around with that little screw can keep you rolling without paying an electrician to come out, at least until the motor burns up.


:thumbsup: Agreed!

Paint markers work much easier than loctite in general especially on vertical surfaces and I have seen some guys use nail polish as well.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Cow said:


> I like the IEC manual motor protectors Allen Bradley makes. Then you have a means of disconnect as well as overload protection that kills the line voltage without needing to break the coil circuit through a set of NC contacts.
> 
> Most manufacturers have them though.


I use these a lot with smaller motors. 

One drawback, at least the A-B ones, in order to be able to lock it out, you have to get a different handle. Why would they not come with a lockable handle in the first place? Nearly everyone (including me) locks stuff out these days.

One advantage is they can handle a HUGE amount of fault current. 

Also, you can get aux contacts that'll tell if it's on or off and even if it's tripped.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

dronai said:


> Nice guy you are


Just remembered what I was going to say...LOL.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Meh, people make mistakes. Glancing at an O/L to check the setting, but not seeing if it was wired correctly, or wired at all, was a decent mistake. It was a high pressure situation since the line couldn't run without that motor running, so 10 dudes were standing around with nothing to do. Not wiring the god damned things to begin with is a much bigger one. 4 of the 6 overload units were tripped, and 1 wouldn't reset. Selling someone a cabinet, the contactors, overloads, and all associated wiring, and not testing everything when you wire it is a MUCH bigger mistake, in my opinion. That is downright incompetence or negligence.


I was just yanking your chain. I'm getting up there too, so us old school guy's gotta watch out for each other, ya know?
I can understand overlooking a wire in a control cabinet can be pretty easy, especially if the equipment was running. (you seemed to have spotted it right off though)
Hard to imagine that equipment got put into service without being commissioned. How was it working without the O/L contact in the circuit? That should be investigated, along with the rest of the tripped units, and circuitry. 4 of 6 aren't good odds.
I would think there are some liability/warranty issues to be sorted out.
They did supply the schematics, I would hope.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

So if you are going to replace a starter thats connected to a motor like a well pump that you have no access to, how do you know what to set the dial to?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

nrp3 said:


> So if you are going to replace a starter thats connected to a motor like a well pump that you have no access to, how do you know what to set the dial to?


I would match the O/L's to what's there usually.

Alternatively, I would read the FLA off the motor nameplate sticker the pump guy left stuck to the cabinet. He left one, right!?!?!

Or, call the pump person who installed it and have them check their records. I've done that before.

Or, amp the pump when running at full flow(demand) and set the O/L's a little above that and hope for the best.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Put the clamp on it and it matched up with what was set there before, 3 amps (480 3ph)


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> :thumbsup: Agreed!
> 
> Paint markers work much easier than loctite in general especially on vertical surfaces and I have seen some guys use nail polish as well.


I only use the Loctite because I always have it in my tool bag and the solvent they use doesn't attack the plastic used in the OL relay body. Nail polish uses Acetone which might dissolve the plastic, plus I only have it with me on Saturday nights...


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

JRaef said:


> I only use the Loctite because I always have it in my tool bag and the solvent they use doesn't attack the plastic used in the OL relay body. Nail polish uses Acetone which might dissolve the plastic, plus I only have it with me on Saturday nights...


LOL I never said I use nailpolish......


I always have a paint marker or two close by, I mark settings with them often.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

This post is real. Just today I opened a combo starte that interlocked with a makeup air to exhaust fan. They put it through auxiliary contacts on the supply contactor straight to the coil. I still am scratching my head as to why 7.5 amps at 480 would burn insulation on #12s. Connection on t lead side of the starter were tight.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

I think this guy's forgot to run the coil wires through the O/L as well! LOL









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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Cl906um said:


> This post is real. Just today I opened a combo starte that interlocked with a makeup air to exhaust fan. They put it through auxiliary contacts on the supply contactor straight to the coil. I still am scratching my head as to why 7.5 amps at 480 would burn insulation on #12s. Connection on t lead side of the starter were tight.


Huh ? Can you do a quick drawing of what your talking about ? Sounds like the seal in circuit ?



Forge Boyz said:


> I think this guy's forgot to run the coil wires through the O/L as well! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks like lighting contactors ?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

dronai said:


> That looks like lighting contactors ?


Yup. From there it goes straight to the motors.

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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Forge Boyz said:


> I think this guy's forgot to run the coil wires through the O/L as well! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally, I like the green wires being used as hots. The lack of motor overloads also tells me this was an install done by a competent electrician.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Cow said:


> Personally, I like the green wires being used as hots. The lack of motor overloads also tells me this was an install done by a competent electrician.


The bottom panel is fed with three hots, so, why would you need a neutral & gnd? :jester:


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Cow said:


> Personally, I like the green wires being used as hots. The lack of motor overloads also tells me this was an install done by a competent electrician.


This is at a facility that is rented by a national chemical/fertilizer company. It was done by an in house guy who works at another location of theirs about 30 miles away. He used to do all their maintenance at this place but the local workers would rather have him stay away so they call me. Here is another picture of how that 200 amp panel is fed. Oh and I think that ground is floating too. It's a 240 delta.









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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Cow said:


> I like the IEC manual motor protectors Allen Bradley makes. Then you have a means of disconnect as well as overload protection that kills the line voltage without needing to break the coil circuit through a set of NC contacts.
> 
> Most manufacturers have them though.


That is how a lot of European equipment manufactures like to do it but they never interlock them to drop out the contractor when they trip.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

oh hell when i read the header on the post i thought you met my boss:biggrin:


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