# Reminding my new employer about class, tomorrow.



## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't know how well this is going to go over.

I start my 2nd year as an indentured apprentice with Associated Builders and Contractors, next week. They don't have night classes like New Orleans did, *it's a full day, once a week*. For me, it would be every Tuesday.

I went back and looked through my e-mails that I sent out when applying for jobs, and they all say that I will be continuing my education with ABC in September, so it was stated on the e-mails he received from me. In fact, this is the statement at the very top of the e-mail:


> I am looking to continue my career as an electrician's apprentice. I will be attending my second year of *formal* electrical education at Associated Builders and Contractors of Southeast Pennsylvania.


But I realized today that when I applied, neither him or I discussed it, (or anything for that matter, wasn't much of an interview). So I'm guessing he doesn't even remember that.

He's a small company, 6 guys right now, and I'm paired up with an "electrician". 3 vans, 2 guys per van. With that in mind, it would be pretty inconvenient for him, for me to "miss" a day every week.

I'm already walking on eggshells after last weeks wirenut debacle, I'm already prepping myself to be unemployed again.

Not really asking for input...it is what it is, I suppose. Just gotta go in there tomorrow and give him the good news and see what happens.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> I don't know how well this is going to go over.
> 
> I start my 2nd year as an indentured apprentice with Associated Builders and Contractors, next week. They don't have night classes like New Orleans did, *it's a full day, once a week*. For me, it would be every Tuesday.
> 
> ...


I would pesent it as a question and not an "ultimatum" Do you absolutely have to take the class? Can you continue to work for him as is? What was the wirenut debacle?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Do what's best for *you*.


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## fraydo (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah what was the wirenut debacle?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

The wire nut debacle.

My goal is to get that paper, I'm not concerned with who's paying for the education. I've seen guys that have been in the trade for decades and still can't carry a card that says they are a journeyman. I don't want to be like that. I know it's not the be-all, end-all as far as learning goes, but I believe that the formal education can be valuable as I continue with this career.

And actually, while tomorrow, I will not state it as such, it _is_ an ultimatum.

This means a lot to me. I didn't come all the way back up North to work for this guy for less money than I was making in New Orleans. I came up because I know the quality of education is higher than down there.

But like I said, it just dawned on me that he never questioned it, therefore, probably has overlooked it. Just sucks that it's going to seem like I'm springing it on him.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

The way you worded it in the first post quote didn't really say anything about you missing work for it. It just said you would be going to school. Did you ever say anything about having to miss work for it? It's not his responsibility to ask when you want to take your vacation or a day off. It's yours to inform him. Heck my boss forgets so much crap that I tell him about six times spread out over 3 months if I need a couple days off.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Remember that there will NEVER be a good time for you to take a day off every week. except weekends of course. Just say something like.

Hey, I just wanted to let you know, I just got my schedule for my apprentice training. The class is every Tuesday. I know that this is not a good day to take off, but I wasn't able to choose the day.

He will respond and you will be able to tell him that you did have it on your resume and that you were expecting night classes.

How's a guy supposed to learn unless he goes to school?:whistling2:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> The way you worded it in the first post quote didn't really say anything about you missing work for it. It just said you would be going to school. Did you ever say anything about having to miss work for it? It's not his responsibility to ask when you want to take your vacation or a day off. It's yours to inform him. Heck my boss forgets so much crap that I tell him about six times spread out over 3 months if I need a couple days off.


That's a good point, although, an unfortunate one.

I never really found a good opportunity to mention it before I was hired. He called me in for an "interview", but it turned out it was me and bunch of other applicants filling out a formal application, he said a few words to me and then I was on my way. Then he called me a few days later and asked if I could start the next day. Of course I said, "yes".

Oh well. The worst that will happen is that I'll have to quit.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

I personally would put waaay more faith in hands on experience than in schooling. I however never went to trade school. I do know that a second year "hands on" apprentice can run circles around someone who just graduated from a 2 year school. They may not know jack and or skit about calculations or anything other than bend or sling wire but not too often is a second year going to even be trusted for that calculation or code reference. Besides you're on electriciantalk half these guys know more than any one of your teachers I bet. Do what's in your gut though. If you don't have anyone to provide for but yourself do whatever you want


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> I personally would put waaay more faith in hands on experience than in schooling. I however never went to trade school. I do know that a second year "hands on" apprentice can run circles around someone who just graduated from a 2 year school. They may not know jack and or skit about calculations or anything other than bend or sling wire but not too often is a second year going to even be trusted for that calculation or code reference. Besides you're on electriciantalk half these guys know more than any one of your teachers I bet. Do what's in your gut though. If you don't have anyone to provide for but yourself do whatever you want


My formal education is a year (almost 2?) behind my actual on the job experience. I would prefer that it not get extended further. This February will be the end of my 3rd year, and start of my 4th year in the trade.

And no, I have no dependents. I don't plan on having any until I'm making enough money to properly care for them.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

How do they not have night school? That's pretty weird, maybe You should just go to school full time and go back to work after you complete it? 

How long before You can sit for the test? 

What are the requirements in PA for a Journeyman's card? IIRC here in MA it is 600 hours of education and 8000 hours of field time. You could complete those hours in 4-5 months full time.

Take the work if You have it. You are going to learn more in the field than in the classroom.

This is My honest opinion only. I'd hate to see you without work right now and only be going to school 1 day a week after you "quit". If You're going to quit go full time and get it over with.

Tom


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

davis9 said:


> How do they not have night school? That's pretty weird, maybe You should just go to school full time and go back to work after you complete it?


I talked to the director about that, he said that employers who had students there requested it because their apprentices were coming in late in the mornings. Teachers also liked it because it prevented students from coming in late to class.



davis9 said:


> How long before You can sit for the test?


Maybe another year or two?



davis9 said:


> What are the requirements in PA for a Journeyman's card? IIRC here in MA it is 600 hours of education and 8000 hours of field time. You could complete those hours in 4-5 months full time.


Pennsylvania doesn't have a journeyman's card. Although, Philadelphia does.



davis9 said:


> Take the work if You have it. You are going to learn more in the field than in the classroom.


Always true. ABC does assist in job placement, although they can't guarantee it. There's a temp agency that I'm on good terms with, I can use them to at least keep me afloat until something trade relevant comes along.



davis9 said:


> This is My honest opinion only. I'd hate to see you without work right now and only be going to school 1 day a week after you "quit". If You're going to quit go full time and get it over with.
> 
> Tom


I wish I could get it over in one go, but it's not an option. The curriculum is really set up with the assumption that there's a company sponsoring you. I'm footing the bill on this. I know that sounds absurd in the trade world, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than going to community college to learn things that would never help me in the real world.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

As already stated, do what's best for YOU. This guy is just a speed bump in road of life. At this point the education is paramount. If he can't understand that, well, he aint worth working for anyway.

If you delay or push back your education now you'll regret it later.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Oh well. The worst that will happen is that I'll have to quit.


Don't quit.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

No sweat, I paid my way through so i wouldn't have to stick around for a year or so afterwards. LOL

So PA is where you plan on staying? All the major cities have different licenses and requirements? I see Pittsburg allows 2 years field time and completion of an accredited course. Seems simple enough to me? Not sure what an accredited course consists of though?

School is an investment in YOU. I think the course(here) was 2K for each 300hour block plus books.

It's a tough decision to lose a job, maybe He will be OK with it. But if He is, I guarantee You He'll be watching you like a Hawk!.LOL

Good luck in what you decide.

Tom


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Frasbee, if you are open shop do you need schooling in your state for your JW card. You really should push the local union apprenticeship to let you in. Work open shop, get hours and try to get in. Just trying to give you some good advice. Open shops that provide retirement and health benifets are few and far between.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Don't quit.


Don't ever quit a job.. You're learning there. Appreciate it for what it is and keep learning.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Open shops that provide retirement and health benifets are few and far between.



That is a fact, there are out there but in the minority.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Frasbee, if you are open shop do you need schooling in your state for your JW card. You really should push the local union apprenticeship to let you in. Work open shop, get hours and try to get in. Just trying to give you some good advice. Open shops that provide retirement and health benifets are few and far between.



Right now is tough. Unemployment is high and he just missed the last apprentice application. If he want's to apply in April, I'll be more then glad to be a reference, I'll even do it in person.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is a fact, there are out there but in the minority.


Shoot Bob, I've been open shop most of my career and it's ROUGH. If you can make a living being Union go for it. I don't care who I work for as long as they respect me and pay me well. Union isn't all roses though, saw a guy get ROF'd last week because wasn't "good enough". Food for thought.

Frasbee, here's the thing, if you want to be a electrician, keep working no matter what. Open, Union, whatever, you are young. Get in some experience and be smart enough to not get injured. Harder said than done.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Don't ever quit a job.. You're learning there. Appreciate it for what it is and keep learning.


Plus, quitting might disqualify him from any unemployment insurance he has earned. If the contractor has a problem with you going to school (which is a part of your trade and apprenticeship), let him fire you for it.


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## fondini (Dec 22, 2009)

I have guys tell me they need the next day off, it happens. Don't give up your class and don't quit your job. You have to have both to work in this field. best of luck:thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> That is a fact, there are out there but in the minority.


 
Most of the larger companys here all provide both.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I think it is great you want your card. As a company owner I want guys like that. But school is not your only choice. I bought books and studied on my own. Our J test is tough. I heard as tough as our state test to be a contractor. School is great but not the only way to accomplish what you want. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Mst of the larger companys here all provide both.


And are there more larger companies or smaller companies?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Shoot Bob, I've been open shop most of my career and it's ROUGH.


You do know I have never been nor likely ever be in the union. 

I work for a large merit shop with good benefits.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> And are there more larger companies or smaller companies?


 
I'm sure us small shops out number the large. There are about 10 large companys I see doing most of the large commercial projects here. Most of them provide both. My point was that most larger companys here do
take care of their guys and you can make a good living.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I think it is great you want your card. As a company owner I want guys like that. *But school is not your only choice*. I bought books and studied on my own. Our J test is tough. I heard as tough as our state test to be a contractor. School is great *but not the only way to accomplish what you want.* :thumbsup:


Some states require classroom time from an accredited program.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> And no, I have no dependents. I don't plan on having any until I'm making enough money to properly care for them.


That is one of the most intelligent things I have ever heard an apprentice say. Way to go!


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

aw, go ahead and make some dependents. they'll appreciate it later in life when they can say they were dirt poor growin up, and their dad abused them.


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## RxScram (Aug 26, 2009)

Still have a job Frasbee?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

RxScram said:


> Still have a job Frasbee?


*Update*

Probably not.

He told me today that a schedule like that would cause an "issue", and that he'll have to start looking for someone else.

Nothing I didn't see coming.

There's more to all of this than just "job or education", variables I have to juggle while I weigh my options. 

I'm an apprentice because I _want_ to be, not because it was the only way I could find a job. If I can't fulfill my goals with his company then I'll continue to look elsewhere so long as I have the means to do so.


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## RxScram (Aug 26, 2009)

Bummer, not a surprise but still disappointing. Good luck!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This is what you get when you work for a contractor that cares 100% about his bottom dollar and 0% about anything or anyone else.

I personally feel that it's the duty of electrical contractors (or any trade contractor) to teach the apprentices the trade and accept all the shortcomings that might come with it.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> This is what you get when you work for a contractor that cares 100% about his bottom dollar and 0% about anything or anyone else.
> 
> I personally feel that it's the duty of electrical contractors (or any trade contractor) to teach the apprentices the trade and accept all the shortcomings that might come with it.


If you hire someone full time you expect that they can work full time. I don't see how that is only about his money. Frasbee should have been clearer when applying and immediately after getting hired that one day a week was off limits for work. It doesn't seem like he is too disappointed anyway though.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> If you hire someone full time you expect that they can work full time.


 Not when it's an apprentice in an area that the only accredited apprenticeship courses are during the day.


> I don't see how that is only about his money.


 Then what other reason would the contractor not like this situation if it didn't boil down to money?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HackWork;282948]*This is what you get when you work for a *contractor that cares 100% about his bottom dollar and 0% about anything or anyone else.*


This is the norm. *MOST* contractor's wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire unless they could make a nickle out of it. From what Frasbee has posted this guy is the bottom of the barrel type. Squeezing people for all there worth with little in return, pretty common around these parts.

It doesn't matter though, Frazzel Dazzel will move on when the time is right and this douche bag will be nothing but a bad memory.




> I personally feel that it's the duty of electrical contractors (or any trade contractor) to teach the apprentices the trade and accept all the shortcomings that might come with it.


That would be nice, but it's not realistic.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Frasbee, it's been a day...How'd it go?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Frasbee, it's been a day...How'd it go?


Sorry my update is lost amongst the replies, but it's just a few posts up.

At 13.50 an hour, the only thing I'm really going to miss is the the on-the-job learning experience. I have mostly commercial experience, and I've definitely learned a few things on the residential side working with the "electrician" I was paired up with. He's a young chinese immigrant. Fast as hell, pushes me pretty hard, but I enjoyed the challenge.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Well,assuming you have a job until you are replaced you should go in each day with a smile and good attitude. I wouldn't even talk about it again. Just work. If the "boot" does come just smile and say thank you, and walk away. At this point even you know that you made the decision...not them. Good luck.:thumbsup:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Not when it's an apprentice in an area that the only accredited apprenticeship courses are during the day.
> Then what other reason would the contractor not like this situation if it didn't boil down to money?


If you tell someone that you want a full time job they, like everyone else, will assume that 40 hours is what you mean. I had to choose between school and work too before. It's not the employers fault that school is only during the day. Bitch to the ABC about it. The guy might be a **** but you can't fault him for wanting 40 hours out of the full time employee he hired


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> If you tell someone that you want a full time job they, like everyone else, will assume that 40 hours is what you mean.


 Not if it's a contractor hiring apprentices. In that case I would expect the contractor to understand that apprentices have to go to school. 


> I had to choose between school and work too before. It's not the employers fault that school is only during the day.


 No, but it is part of the deal, apprentices need education to go along with the on the job training. You see, that is what it is supposed to be, "on the job training", it is not supposed to be "cheap labor to abuse".


> Bitch to the ABC about it.


 Why? I have absolutely no love for the ABC, but it is not their fault in this situation.



> The guy might be a **** but you can't fault him for wanting 40 hours out of the full time employee he hired


 Yes, I can fault him when it is an apprentice that he wants 40 hours a week out of when the only way to go thru the program is to miss a day a week.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Not if it's a contractor hiring apprentices. In that case I would expect the contractor to understand that apprentices have to go to school.
> No, but it is part of the deal, apprentices need education to go along with the on the job training. You see, that is what it is supposed to be, "on the job training", it is not supposed to be "cheap labor to abuse".
> Why? I have absolutely no love for the ABC, but it is not their fault in this situation.
> 
> Yes, I can fault him when it is an apprentice that he wants 40 hours a week out of when the only way to go thru the program is to miss a day a week.


How is it abusing cheap labor to expect a full time employee to work full time ? 

I went through 4 years of apprenticeship and school was 3 nights a week, somehow I still managed to get up in the morning and make it to work on time.

This whole BS of ABC only having a day course because supposedly apprentices were showing up late to work the next day is total freaking horse sht and is a perfect example of the lazy ass, baggy pant pant wearing,all day text messaging little douches that are being massed produced today. 

Then to top it off you have schools , parents and now apparently ABC enabling these clowns to do it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rich R said:


> How is it abusing cheap labor to expect a full time employee to work full time ?


 I didn't say that specifically was abusing cheap labor.
But I already answered your question when I explained twice that apprentices are required to take courses that will cut into the work day.


> I went through 4 years of apprenticeship and school was 3 nights a week, somehow I still managed to get up in the morning and make it to work on time.


 Night school is not available in his area.


> This whole BS of ABC only having a day course because supposedly apprentices were showing up late to work the next day is total freaking horse sht and is a perfect example of the lazy ass, baggy pant pant wearing,all day text messaging little douches that are being massed produced today.


 You have a chip on your shoulder, apparently. Why are you channeling your anger here? I agree with you about many of the apprentices being stick up spoiled brats who have no ambition and feel entitled to a good pay check for standing around. But that is not what this discussion is about, and Frasbee isn't that type of apprentice.


> Then to top it off you have schools , parents and now apparently ABC enabling these clowns to do it.


I do not see how this situation is enabling any of that.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

This is the dumbest thread ever.


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I do not see how this situation is enabling any of that.


 
Well if you look at Frasbee's post or update post he wrote that ABC in his area decided to change to day school because supposedly contractors were complaining of apprentices showing up late to work the next day.

I call that enabling, Instead of dropping them from the program they instead decided to cater to them, I don't buy the whole " the contractors" wanted it this way for a minute.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HackWork;283102]*Not if it's a contractor hiring apprentices. In that case I would expect the contractor to understand that apprentices have to go to school.


School isn't a requirement here, or in NJ. That's why in the world of non-union there called helpers. This contractor wanted a cheap helper, not an apprentice who will continue in education and skill level, which will equal to higher pay. Imagine the horror, _"you mean you want an education and a raise"_.......



> No, but it is part of the deal, apprentices need education to go along with the on the job training. You see, that is what it is supposed to be, "on the job training", it is not supposed to be *"cheap labor to abuse"*.


Unfortunately, this is exactly what it is. Very much par for the course in these parts. Ask a contractor around here for decent pay and benefits and he'll tell you that you have "entitlement issues".



> I have absolutely no love for the ABC, but it is not their fault in this situation.


I share your sediment and agree with you in this instance. 




> Yes, I can fault him when it is an apprentice that he wants 40 hours a week out of when the only way to go thru the program is to miss a day a week.


This is a non union shop. They don't believe in apprenticeships. Even the ABC who's only purpose for apprenticeship is to supply cheap labor for PW job's is totally dedicated to eliminating the prevailing wage. It's right on there web site. I wonder if they were successful at eliminating the PW if they would even continue there so-called apprenticeship. I'm willing to bet NO they wouldn't. Especially since then the contractors wouldn't need it for cheap labor any more.

Non of this matters. Frasbee was hired as a helper. But it's obvious he's striving for more then that. He has to leave this shop in order to progress.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rich R said:


> Well if you look at Frasbee's post or update post he wrote that ABC in his area decided to change to day school because supposedly contractors were complaining of apprentices showing up late to work the next day.


 Or maybe the real reason was that the teachers didn't like working second shift, who really knows.


> I call that enabling, Instead of dropping them from the program they instead decided to cater to them, I don't buy the whole " the contractors" wanted it this way for a minute.


Whatever dude, you can choose to believe what you want. In the end, I don't blame all of them for the issues that some of them were causing.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

I agree, but still I would not quit. I'd wait for the pink slip so I could at least get the you know what check.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> School isn't a requirement here, or in NJ. That's why in the world of non-union there called helpers. This contractor wanted a cheap helper, not an apprentice who will continue in education and skill level, which will equal to higher pay. Imagine the horror, _"you mean you want an education and a raise"_.......


FWIW, Frasbee was clear from the beginning that he would be continuing his education, so the contractor knew. But I agree that they were just looking for cheap labor and don't give a damn about the apprentice. It's a shame. I thought part of the pride of being a tradesmen was passing the trade down?


> Unfortunately, this is exactly what it is. Very much par for the course in these parts. Ask a contractor around here for decent pay and benefits and he'll tell you that you have "entitlement issues".
> 
> I share your sediment and agree with you in this instance.
> 
> ...


What would ABC do if it weren't for apprenticeships? Turn into a fully fledged anti-union lobby group? :laughing:


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> FWIW, Frasbee was clear from the beginning that he would be continuing his education, so the contractor knew.


How the hell was the contractor supposed to know that he needed a day off every single week if he wasn't told? You want him to read minds?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *HackWork*;283141]FWIW, Frasbee was clear from the beginning that he would be continuing his education, so the contractor knew. But I agree that they were just looking for cheap labor and don't give a damn about the apprentice. It's a shame. * I thought part of the pride of being a tradesmen was passing the trade down?*


For some yes, others are looking to squeeze young kids for all there worth.
These types of contractors I refer to as PIMPS.



> What would ABC do if it weren't for apprenticeships? Turn into a fully fledged anti-union lobby group? :laughing:


:thumbup: And all along I thought they already are.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

slickvic277 said:


> For some yes, others are looking to squeeze young kids for all there worth.
> These types of contractors I refer to as PIMPS.
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortuneately Vic is dead on here. In the philly suburbs and NJ there is no such thing as an apprentice. Even the word apprentice is only used among union workers. You have helpers and guys that manage to get there own education (most by learning on the job or teaching themselves) that are refferred to as mechanics. Its probably why there are so many lousy Mechanics around here. When Frasbee Tells a contractor he is an apprentice they probably look at him a little funny. Particularly around philly suburbs where there are no testing requirements to be an electrical contractor. Besides a few towns. Trying to get a formal aprenticeship in this area and economy outside the union is almost impossable (literally) 

I will give you the hard advice tho Frasbee. Drop the ABC course. Its not a very good one anyway. It decreases your allready slim chances of getting in 98 (which if your gonna go union go 98 or go home) Your a smart dude, stay with this scumbag for a few YEARS, Unless you can get hooked up with an open shop on this side of the river, get some consistancy in your resume and learn the hurry-up. Go to college and get a formal education at night while you suffer through it. Put in your 5 years and get the license. LEARN PLCs Take some of the courses offered by Allen Bradly, or Eaton or any course offered by any manufacturer.

Fras I'm not tryin to shoot you down just applying what I know about this area to your situation and trying to give you what I think is your best long term chance. Keep in mind I'm the otherside of Vics pro union coin and I am telling you drop the ABC. They dont want to educate you, they just want an excuse to pay you less. Your above average intelligence and will GREATLY benefit from a formal education.

Just my opinion again.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> How the hell was the contractor supposed to know that he needed a day off every single week if he wasn't told? You want him to read minds?


He never brought up the statement on my resume, so I didn't, either.

Of course I knew that might have been an issue at the time of hiring so I reserved it for a need to know basis. I don't fault the guy for his decision. It's a tricky situation for me, I have a few time sensitive matters at hand.

As far as ABC's decision to have a full class throughout the work week, I couldn't tell you. I had night class twice a week in New Orleans.

No point in getting at each other's throat over this, it's a moot point.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> How the hell was the contractor supposed to know that he needed a day off every single week if he wasn't told? You want him to read minds?


No, he is expected to know how the system that he is involved with works.

As I said from the beginning, if the contractor gave even the slightest amount of concern towards anything but his bottom dollar, he would understand that the apprentices that he hires have courses to take which are only available during the day.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *gold;*283167]Unfortuneately Vic is dead on here. In the philly suburbs and NJ there is no such thing as an apprentice. Even the word apprentice is only used among union workers. You have helpers and guys that manage to get there own education (most by learning on the job or teaching themselves) that are refferred to as mechanics. Its probably why there are so many lousy Mechanics around here. When Frasbee Tells a contractor he is an apprentice they probably look at him a little funny. Particularly around philly suburbs where there are no testing requirements to be an electrical contractor. Besides a few towns. Trying to get a formal aprenticeship in this area and economy outside the union is almost impossable (literally)


This is all very true. Which is why I wish PA had a state wide license requirement to perform electrical work, union or not.



> I will give you the hard advice tho Frasbee. Drop the ABC course. Its not a very good one anyway. It decreases your allready slim chances of getting in 98 (which if your gonna go union go 98 or go home)


While this is partially true, I wouldn't drop the ABC course. Yes it is a very lousy course (I have a story here but that's another thread) It's his only means to formal education outside the union. The one thing that really rubs me the wrong way about the ABC "apprenticeship" is they don't have job placement. Even the tech schools have job placement.



> Your a smart dude, stay with this scumbag for a few YEARS, Unless you can get hooked up with an open shop on this side of the river, get some consistancy in your resume and learn the hurry-up. Go to college and get a formal education at night while you suffer through it. Put in your 5 years and get the license. LEARN PLCs Take some of the courses offered by Allen Bradly, or Eaton or any course offered by any manufacturer.


There are a small handful of open shops here that are worth working for (maybe 3 or 4) They do almost exclusively PW work and are huge outfits.
Google Philip Brothers. Ironically they're harder to get into then 98. And they also run the ABC. There nepotism makes the IBEW's look like a joke in comparison. 



> Fras I'm not tryin to shoot you down just applying what I know about this area to your situation and trying to give you what I think is your best long term chance. Keep in mind I'm the otherside of Vics pro union coin and I am telling you drop the ABC. They dont want to educate you, they just want an excuse to pay you less. Your above average intelligence and will GREATLY benefit from a formal education.
> 
> Just my opinion again.


I wouldn't drop the ABC course, I would use it to network and try to land a job with either Philips brothers or Wesscott. Although Wesscott is known to cheat there guy's on the PW gigs. Also the Journeyman card would help him in the future to land some of the really good in house gigs around the city. Septa's "A" electricians do really well.

Overall you provided some good advice. I have offered Frasbee a few avenues into 98. I told him I would be more then happy to provide a reference in person if he wishes to apply in April.

It isn't a guarantee, but I would use what little "pull" I have to help him out.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> No, he is expected to know how the system that he is involved with works.
> 
> As I said from the beginning, if the contractor gave even the slightest amount of concern towards anything but his bottom dollar, he would understand that the apprentices that he hires have courses to take which are only available during the day.


Apprentices are not required to take classes. Not where Frasbee is at least. He should have made it perfectly clear that the full time job he wanted he would only be working 4 days a week.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> For some yes, others are looking to squeeze young kids for all there worth.
> These types of contractors I refer to as PIMPS.


 

I squeeze em young and old.:whistling2: I don't discriminate.:laughing:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I squeeze em young and old.:whistling2: I don't discriminate.:laughing:


I found your picture ,










Pimpin' young men for all their worth.....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Apprentices are not required to take classes. Not where Frasbee is at least.


 They are expected to, and Frasbee was very clear that he was in school and going to be taking classes. This would be on the contractor who didn't do an interview, because that would be the time to talk about the issue of school (which Frasbee already brought up).

You know what I do when I get a new apprentice? The very first thing? I ask "What day do you go to school?"

All of this leads back to my one simple point, these contractors don't give a f*ck about the apprentices or teaching the trade. If they did, they would be pushing the youngins to go to school instead of giving them grief about it.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> They are expected to, and Frasbee was very clear that he was in school and going to be taking classes..


Expected to by who? I have never once been required or expected by anyone to go to formal school. Frasbee was NOT clear that these classes would cut into working hours and that is the problem. If I hired an employee who started work and then after working for a while stated that he would need a day off every week for school I would probably can him too. Frasbee is a good kid from what I can tell and is eager to learn and that is great, however construction is a tough place to be right now and the line of people willing to take his spot is long. I know the unions around here have apprentices work 32 hours a week but out in the non-union world a work week is 40 hours regardless of who it is for.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

HackWork said:


> They are expected to ...


 
See thats the thing. In that area they are NOT expected to take ANY classes and most DO NOT. In fact its pretty much unheard of. There really is no such thing as an apprentice in the philly suburbs. So this contractors perception is he hires a "helper" to "train" to be a "mechanic" in a year or two and now he wants to take a day off every week to go to some school so he can get a "better" job. The word apprentice is completely lost with that guy its "a union word" to him. Keep in mind that its likely the contractor himself never went to school or went through an apprenticeship, he just paid his $30 and got a business permit, now hes an electrical contractor.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Expected to by who?


 By a sizable contractor working in the area who gives a crap about teaching the trade to the apprentices.


> Frasbee was NOT clear that these classes would cut into working hours and that is the problem.


 And again, he made it clear that he would be going to school, and the only school there is during the day. The contractor had the chance to conduct an interview where this type of thing should have been discussed.


> If I hired an employee who started work and then after working for a while stated that he would need a day off every week for school I would probably can him too.


 If you hired an apprentice in an area where school is only conducted during the day, you should discuss that with him. If you would can him for going to school during the day, than you are one of the worthless contractors I have been talking about.


> Frasbee is a good kid from what I can tell and is eager to learn and that is great, however construction is a tough place to be right now and the line of people willing to take his spot is long. I know the unions around here have apprentices work 32 hours a week but out in the non-union world a work week is 40 hours regardless of who it is for.


 And you just proved my point once again.

Screw the apprentices, screw their careers, screw everything. All you care about is your bottom dollar. Apprentices are nothing more to you than cheap labor to abuse, you won't even allow them to go to school


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

gold said:


> See thats the thing. In that area they are NOT expected to take ANY classes and *most DO NOT*.


And again, FRASBEE SAID HE WOULD BE GOING TO SCHOOL. 



> There really is no such thing as an apprentice in the philly suburbs. So this contractors perception is he hires a "helper" to "train" to be a "mechanic" in a year or two and now he wants to take a day off every week to go to some school so he can get a "better" job. The word apprentice is completely lost with that guy its "a union word" to him. Keep in mind that its likely the contractor himself never went to school or went through an apprenticeship, he just paid his $30 and got a business permit, now hes an electrical contractor.


He's a scumbag, which has been my point from the very beginning.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think everyone agrees that the situation is unfortunate, whatever the reason. 

I just read the title to the thread, and I found it kind of funny if you read it in a different way.
"Reminding my new employer about class".

He needs to be reminded about class (cause he doesn't have any).


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

HackWork said:


> By a sizable contractor working in the area who gives a crap about teaching the trade to the apprentices.
> And again, he made it clear that he would be going to school, and the only school there is during the day. The contractor had the chance to conduct an interview where this type of thing should have been discussed.
> If you hired an apprentice in an area where school is only conducted during the day, you should discuss that with him. If you would can him for going to school during the day, than you are one of the worthless contractors I have been talking about.
> And you just proved my point once again.
> ...


I'm an employee not a contractor, and I never went to school. I read the code book and I study what I can where I can. School is not the be all end all to education and that's part of why this country is screwed up. I wouldn't can him for going to school, I would can him for not disclosing that he would need a day off every week to go to school, I would not call the schools to find out what time he was going, that is his responsibility to inform me. It's a moot point anyway at this point, Frasbee got a couple of months of work and this contractor got smeared on the internet for wanting a 40 hour week out of an employee. The end.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> I'm an employee not a contractor, and I never went to school. I read the code book and I study what I can where I can.


 Some people want to get a license, which many times requires formal education. All in all, I think formal education is the best way to go.



> School is not the be all end all to education and that's part of why this country is screwed up.


 I agree and disagree. As for electricians, I think some schooling is important. I'm against the idea of kids spending $80K on college and then figuring out what they want to do in life (which usually doesn't require the college education they bought)



> I wouldn't can him for going to school, I would can him for not disclosing that he would need a day off every week to go to school,


 For the 4th time, he told them that he was continuing his education. The contractor should have conducted an interview to sort things like that out, since he didn't it's on him. And I still maintain that if the contractor doesn't know that the only formal education is during the day, he is a scumbag who is using all his apprentices as cheap labor and nothing else.


> I would not call the schools to find out what time he was going, that is his responsibility to inform me.


 He did inform him. Apparently the contractor doesn't want *ANYTHING* to do with bringing up an apprentice.

Ya know, I'm not one to promote unions, usually my views are against them in their current form. But in this situation I have to say, the evil union and the signatory contractors do it right, everyone does right by the apprentices.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MF Dagger said:


> however construction is a tough place to be right now and the line of people willing to take his spot is long.


It's true, and I figured this out very quickly when I went in for his "interview", which was simply me and 4 other applicants filling out his formal application. He said he had more coming the next day, didn't say much else to me besides asking about what the heat was like in New Orleans and then moved onto the next guy.

As I said, none of it matters now, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not surprised by any of this. Don't think I didn't know what I was doing when I _didn't_ mention my day classes. I'm notorious for being too honest for my own good, but I've learned when to hold my tongue. 

I find every bit of work valuable and wanted to give it a shot. 

He could've been the dream shop I've always wanted work. Maybe so good I'd give up class.

Or not.

It didn't work out, but it wasn't because of my lack of productivity, I was getting along well with the electrician I worked with. I made my decision, and he made his, now some other guy is gonna have his chance and I'm moving on with my life.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

^

Best post of the whole thread.


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