# Memphis Local 474 voting to charge tuition for apprenticeship...



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Going back on a promise seems wrong, but at this point everyone is cash strapped and if that is what is going to keep the program from sinking completely, it may be the best answer. Will the out of work apprentices have to pay back for the money they are not paying?

Holding the vote on school night seems shady. Have you tried talking to anyone about this in your local?

And as some of the union stalwarts have pointed out it is about BROTHERHOOD.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *Wandering Idiot*;401491]The title says it all. The Memphis JATC is running into budgetary shortfalls, and to recover from them, the local plans on instituting a tuition for the apprenticeship program. It has not gone up for vote yet, but will on March 22nd. Conveniently enough, on a school night. Why not hold the vote at the Unit one meeting? Convenient answer for that one, too. The information seems to have not disseminated out amongst the brothers at the rate the rumor mill drives things around here, so they're sending out a memo.


Local politics. Get use to it.



> I am not happy about this at all. I signed up for the program, signed my contract, under the impression that any tuition costs would come from the coffers of the Local, through funding agreed to by the contractors. From what I gather, accrued by the rumor mill, *the plan is to take $.40/hour from the apprentice pay to cover tuition costs. If that's the case, the cost will be unbalanced across the apprentices. Those fortunate enough to have work will be paying their share, while those riding the book will not, leaving the workers to cover more expense than their counterparts.*


Essentially, this is unionism in a nutshell. All for one and all that nonsense. Here, the JW pay for apprentice training. Then the apprentice has to work as a JW for 5 years to "pay" off there "tuition".



> $.40 an hour may not sound like much, but consider that period one apprentices in Memphis make about $10.35 an hour. It's livable, but after the 4.5% dues already pulled plus the average cost of monthly dues (another $11~/week, roughly), the checks just get tighter and tighter.


You could work non-union. And make $16 per hour as a mechanic and buy your own benefits. Apprenticeship is never meant to be cake walk.



> To be honest, I can live with the cost. I'm fortunate enough to be married to a lovely, talented woman who's gainfully employed. She's been floating the bills while I've been waiting on my call and trying to find work elsewhere. However, there are plenty of guys in the program that are barely scratching by as it is. Dwindling paychecks from the winter work weeks hit most of the guys working, and again, every penny counts for them, just like it does for those riding book. On top of that, insult to injury style, they plan to hold the vote on a night when probably 3/4 of the apprentices will be in class. Sure, some of us haven't hit out four missed classes limit, so it won't affect a few of us attending. For the most part, though, it seems the conflicting schedule was set up that way. Besides, it's not like apprentices get any information, nor do most care. Why give them a chance to voice their opinion if they're going to get booted from the program for missing another class? Hell, barely anyone knew about the funding issue until last night, when they were still planning to vote on the issue tonight.


I would question the legallity of holding a vote to charge tuition to members who are not aloud to vote. 



> I have a serious problem with the local trying to reneg on all of the apprentices, bumping the load onto their shoulders, when surely there's a way to accrue the funds necessary to keep the program liquid. Can they not ask the IO for assistance? Or the National JATC? Maybe a few people in the office could enjoy a few more hours of down time a week, like those of us stuck in this program, sitting on the couch at home?
> 
> Questions? Comments? Suggestions?


The IO ain't gonna do sh*t for you. In fact, asking them for help is a bad move. Honestly, your bent over a barrel right now. Not much you can do.

Lube up and brace for impact.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Local politics. Get use to it.
> 
> Essentially, this is unionism in a nutshell. All for one and all that nonsense. Here, the JW pay for apprentice training. Then the apprentice has to work as a JW for 5 years to "pay" off there "tuition".
> 
> ...


We have the '5 years as a JW for the local' stint written into our JATC contracts as well, which all of us agreed to, and I'm genuinely fine with it.

I was a mechanic off/on for half a dozen years. I got out of it after the body beating it gave me, and lost the passion for it.

I'll be calling my instructor next week to see if there will be any leniency on the issue, but I get the feeling there will be none from the office on missing the class.

Figures. IO takes the money to run **** into the ground (hooray CW/CE decision).


I'm seriously considering rolling back to the mechanic field. I joined the program to get my feet wet here, maybe build a life and career out of it. I've been in the program now for 8 months, indentured for 6 months. I've had a whole 6 weeks worth of work in that time. Granted, the local has a ****ty share of the market here (about 20%), so work wasn't going to be great, but I had hopes that this program would at least find me something without phucking me twice over. Now their trying to slip it in without the K.Y., and I'm getting fed up with it.

I need more booze.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Wandering Idiot said:


> We have the '5 years as a JW for the local' stint written into our JATC contracts as well, which all of us agreed to, and I'm genuinely fine with it.
> 
> I was a mechanic off/on for half a dozen years. I got out of it after the body beating it gave me, and lost the passion for it.
> 
> ...



Hahaha. You misinterpreted my post. Here, mechanic is the non-union term used to describe a Journeyman.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

Ah, gotcha. We call them rats here. I was a diesel mechanic, so the term rolled back to auto/diesel in my head.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Wandering Idiot said:


> Ah, gotcha. *We call them rats here.* I was a diesel mechanic, so the term rolled back to auto/diesel in my head.



You truly are an idiot. I bet those "rats" aren't sitting on books waiting to go out.

Lose the stereo type, kid. We're down to 10% market share nation wide, those "rats" are doing it cheaper, faster, and just as good.

The sooner we wake up and smell the coffee, the sooner I'll stop wasting my breath.........


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Wandering Idiot said:


> Ah, gotcha. We call them rats here. I was a diesel mechanic, so the term rolled back to auto/diesel in my head.


If you use the term rat you should be pushed out of the trade and local. THAT IS DISGUSTING, especially from an apprentice that has hardly any experience in the trade, in work and in life.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

/\/\ Piss off, I have plenty of life experience. I'm not some ****sack JWs son just looking for a cake job pulling wire. Been around the block and took a turn at dodging bullets for this country. I'm older than you seem to believe. Sure, I'm short in the trade, but it was an attempt at a future. One they're not able to hold up to on their end of the agreement.

I won't disagree with you on myself being an idiot, there's a reason I stick to this handle. 

And yeah, you're right. I have no place calling people rats, it's a choice, in the end, as to whether you work union or not. I'm going against the point I was trying to make in that argument thread a while ago.

We're just in a ****ty situation here, and it seems they're only going to make things worse for the future of the local. **** on the littlest men by going against their contracts, throw more of a load on them when their work is going to cheaper guys that are now union backed. Hooray! I'm just fed up with the shortfalls and the coming ass poundings.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Wandering Idiot said:


> I won't disagree with you on myself being an idiot, there's a reason I stick to this handle.
> 
> And yeah, you're right. I have no place calling people rats, it's a choice, in the end, as to whether you work union or not. I'm going against the point I was trying to make in that argument thread a while ago.
> 
> We're just in a ****ty situation here, and it seems they're only going to make things worse for the future of the local. **** on the littlest men by going against their contracts, throw more of a load on them when their work is going to cheaper guys that are now union backed. Hooray! I'm just fed up with the shortfalls and the coming ass poundings.



I understand your frustration. As I'm sure getting pounded in the ass is painful. If there was REAL brotherhood in the local, they would do what my local did back in the day when we faced financial crisis. 

Some of the members VOLUNTEERED to teach on their own, free time. Apprentice school was held in a neighborhood churches hall and the books were paid for by the apprentices.

Now the apprentices get paid to go to school, we have full time instructors who make $5 over the rate, plus vacation time, 3 different school buildings plus a solar training facility.

Success only comes with sacrifice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

In my opinion one of the reasons in the north the unions are losing share has to do with attitudes from past members. You are in a poor area for union and you use terms that only lower the value of the union.

Many men union men and open shop men are bitter from the poor treatment they received in the past from union members and this term is one of the poorer choices you can make, when discussing open shop workers. Many open shop men are as qualified as any union man. 

As for working union in an area like yours in this market, maybe a poor career choice.

I hear that term and it gets under my skin and in the wrong places it might get you, your head handed to you in a basket.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

We do not get paid to go to school. Books are out of our pockets as well. Nothing like paying $100 for a calculator because it's wrapped into the schools' cost when you can get the same TI-30 for $15 at your chosen big box retailer.

You're seriously over-estimating the Memphis JATC building and staff demands. Sure, my instructor makes a decent rate for his work, but he's been teaching for decades, knows his ****. Our building is in the middle of a ghetto and is city owned.


And yes, Brian, you're right. The term is a little loose from the hip, but I'm far from the only goofball here (city and board) using it. Also yes, there are plenty of qualified open shop guys. Just seems the routine here (this city, not this message board... maybe) is to ramble angrily against the competition, use slurs, etc. In the end, every JW takes the test, and can't call themselves a JW without it. Call it angst, anger, or plain old jealousy, all guys talk down about their competition. Just some do it nicely.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

It sounds like your local may be on life support. Learn all you can while it's there.

What is the rate Mechanics make?

Union

Open Shop


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

> *Wandering Idiot*;401611]We do not get paid to go to school. Books are out of our pockets as well. Nothing like paying $100 for a calculator because it's wrapped into the schools' cost when you can get the same TI-30 for $15 at your chosen big box retailer.


I highly doubt you paid $100 for a $15 calculator.



> You're seriously over-estimating the Memphis JATC building and staff demands. Sure, my instructor makes a decent rate for his work, but he's been teaching for decades, knows his ****.


You only have one instructor??????



> Our building is in the middle of a ghetto and is city owned.


Well, if your local can't afford these modest demands you guy's have much bigger problems. How large is your "A" ticket membership and how many are outta work?

How many apprentices? How many are in school? And how many are done school but haven't raised their tickets yet?

How much money is in the general fund?
What's the city charging you to rent there building?

How much do the JW pay towards apprentice training?
How much money is coming in vs how much is coming out?

How many agents are on staff? Is it time to lay any off and increase the duties of the other ones?

Who's responsible for the accounting?

Where did $.40/per hour come from and how do they know that will be enough?



Seriously dude, these are the questions you should be asking your paid representatives. Not a bunch of hacks on an internet forum.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wandering Idiot said:


> Ah, gotcha. We call them rats here. I was a diesel mechanic, so the term rolled back to auto/diesel in my head.





> I've had a whole 6 weeks worth of work in that time.


You have 6 weeks of field expeiance..

So you have worked so hard in those six weeks that you have earned the privalage to call non Union mechanic/Electricians RATS..:blink::blink:

What a distinguished Gentleman you are and special too...:laughing::laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

brian john said:


> It sounds like *your local may be on life support*. Learn all you can while it's there.



Slick read above


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Slick read above



I see a merger in the idiot's future. Mergers are usually a bad thing for locals. Might be a good thing for the idiot though, considering he's only been in the trade for like 10 seconds.....


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

If I can find my book list price sheet, I'll take a picture of it.

I only have one instructor. There are a bit more than half a dozen total.

And yes, you're both right, the union is probably in a hole. Hell, Nashville was the next closest local and it was shut down a few years back due to lacking support.

Our monthly dues are $43.50. A tiny sum in comparison to what many of you guys pay, I get that. But squeezing any dues from the book riders is about as useful as squeezing orange juice from monkey turds.

No idea on what the city charges for rent, but Memphis City Schools just voted themselves out of a charter, the state is passed a bill to stretch the transition to county for 3 years, and I'm sure they can't be charging a whole lot for the space we use, all things considered.

Local JW rate is $23 and change. Open shops range from $18 to union scale, generally. 

There are about 250 on book one at the hall. No idea how many are riding the apprentice book.

There are probably 80-100 apprentices across all five years. We started this year with 45~ in first year, down to 30. Evidently the graduation rate is between 10-15 guys a year.

Everything else, I'm stretched thin on the knowledge front. And yes, I should take up these concerns with a representative.


Harry, I'd love to have more than 6 weeks work in my boots. Congratulations. You called me out for taking an apprenticeship in a right to work state, where 80% of the work goes non-union. You win. You're a winner. Let me find you a sticker to put on your hard hat of Charlie Sheen's face so you can prove it to the world.










Besides, I've apologized for the rat comment. Let's get past it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Wandering Idiot said:


> If I can find my book list price sheet, I'll take a picture of it.
> 
> I only have one instructor. There are a bit more than half a dozen total.
> 
> ...


No one can tell you what you should do. Only you can make your own decisions. But my advice would be to lay low, let the Journeyman decide what's best for the local. Concentrate on your studys and the work will come.
Remember, this economy is beating everyone up right now.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Have you considered open shop? Some experience is better than no experience.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

I'd love any job right now. I'd work open shop if the JATC and local wouldn't crawl up my ass about it. We're not allowed to work outside of JATC approved jobs (electrical jobs, I can go flip burgers if need be), lest we get a BIG NASTY SPANKING by the local because 'oh no! work for the competition!'. I want a solid education. I don't want to quit the program. I see it as a benefit to stick with the program and do well, there's just no work, or the CW/CEs are getting it.

I like the idea of the union. I'm not trying to run it down. The whole 'brotherhood, looking out for each other, decent benefits' schtick works for me. I want to work, and I enjoy working hard. I'm just extremely peeved that the agreements we have come to in contractual form mean exactly **** to these guys because of the current situation. I knew going into this that I'd have to work 5 years as a JW for the local to repay my time for the education. I'd work my lifetime for them if they didn't seem okay with reneging, let alone not even trying to explain to the people that are about to get screwed why they're about to be pushed over the barrel.

Why is it that the IO won't do **** to help in situations like this? I realize that the national JATC may not have the funds, but the IO surely could use a chunk of that money they float off to political horsecrap to help keep locals above water. We pay them dues, and the collapsing of locals is only going to hurt them more in the long run if they don't help them out.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Wandering Idiot said:


> I'd love any job right now. I'd work open shop if the JATC and local wouldn't crawl up my ass about it. We're not allowed to work outside of JATC approved jobs (electrical jobs, I can go flip burgers if need be), lest we get a BIG NASTY SPANKING by the local because 'oh no! work for the competition!'. I want a solid education. I don't want to quit the program. I see it as a benefit to stick with the program and do well, there's just no work, or the CW/CEs are getting it.
> 
> I like the idea of the union. I'm not trying to run it down. The whole 'brotherhood, looking out for each other, decent benefits' schtick works for me. I want to work, and I enjoy working hard. I'm just extremely peeved that the agreements we have come to in contractual form mean exactly **** to these guys because of the current situation. I knew going into this that I'd have to work 5 years as a JW for the local to repay my time for the education. I'd work my lifetime for them if they didn't seem okay with reneging, let alone not even trying to explain to the people that are about to get screwed why they're about to be pushed over the barrel.



Union life may not be for you. Hell, it's not for everyone. And sometimes the situation dictates that you must move on. Right now for IBEW members it's feast or famine. I'm not saying it's a good thing, just thats what it is right now.

You seem to be pretty hell bent considering you've only been a member for only a flash in the pan. If you can't stomach the down time, you need to move on. And if being an electrician is what you want to do, then make it happen, not even the local can stop you from doing that.

You seem to want all the perks of union membership but don't want to contribute to the sacrifices that made those perks possible.

If the local truly cannot find you employment, then you need to make a decision. The ball is in your court.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

*Wandering troll..*

I smell troll again! I'm on a roll :thumbup:


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

Nah, I'm not trolling. I've been around these forums for around 8 or 9 months. I'm just frustrated, pissed, sick and tired of being on the phucking book, staring at the walls...

Besides, would a troll actually take the time to spell words correctly and use them in proper context? Seems like half the guys here have trouble with that. OOOPS! TROLLING!



The bourbon is catching up, or at least I'm noticing it more now. I don't mean to come across as an ungrateful, unskilled jackass, which is probably the case. Just, put yourself in my shoes, think about it for a minute. Sure, some of my comments have been a little serrated or flat out insulting, but I'm just pissed, drinking, and instigated by the situation I've been rambling about. I don't mean to be a horses' scrotum, just, well, you guys get it by now.

Slick, I'm keen on doing electrical work. I enjoy it, but yes, the down times are my biggest shortcomings with it right now. It's the most infuriating thing, sitting at the house, waiting on the call that never comes.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wandering Idiot said:


> Harry, I'd love to have more than 6 weeks work in my boots. Congratulations. You called me out for taking an apprenticeship in a right to work state, where 80% of the work goes non-union. You win. You're a winner. Let me find you a sticker to put on your hard hat of Charlie Sheen's face so you can prove it to the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apology accepted..


All of here are Electricians,,,Both Union and Non union so when it come right down to it all of us have to work hard to survive ..

Guys that are non union can get "FIRED" on the spot,, I have several times in the 37 years i have been in the trade...:laughing: 

Thats life ,. listen to both sides that way you will learn the most to make you the best man you can be that should be your goal.

Be happy that your in the Union the key is to servive so don't make waves if you have to pay for school then just do it ..Five years from now you will be glad you did..

Welcome to the forum...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I smell troll again! I'm on a roll :thumbup:


A hot dog roll..?:laughing::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Wandering Idiot said:


> Been around the block and took a turn at dodging bullets for this country. I'm older than you seem to believe.


Quit yer complaining and make the training center activate your GI Bill, it will kick in and pay for everything plus give you more money to help pay all your bills and fun money for dancing single moms.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> I smell troll again! I'm on a roll :thumbup:


W.Idiot has been here many times... It's not another Mathers fly-by-nite troll strike


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

Miller, I don't have Chapter 30 Montgomery GI Bill. Long story behind that, but I opted to have some other student loans taken care of, and Post-9/11 doesn't work with apprenticeships until August of this year. I'm working on getting VA Vocational Rehab right now. Thorn in my goddamn side is what that's turning out to be.



HARRY304E said:


> Apology accepted..
> 
> 
> All of here are Electricians,,,Both Union and Non union so when it come right down to it all of us have to work hard to survive ..
> ...


Your right. And life is both joyfully and depressingly ridiculous at times. I am happy to be in the union, I enjoy the idea of the brotherhood. I'm just frustrated (for lack of a better word). 

It's not my situation that frustrates me entirely, however. It really does eat me up that a lot of the guys I go to class with, worked with (even if it was only a bull**** wire pull), are about to have to worry more about scratching by. My situation is fine, financially. Unemployment covers the bills, my wife has a comfortable, secure job. Next year I'll be able to use my Post-9/11 GI Bill with the program. The $.40/hour won't matter to me, because the government will be shelling out a living allowance to me. It's the principal of the matter. The fact that we all signed a contract agreeing to certain stipulations, and now the local is going to try to back pedal on it. I'm not concerned with my situation as much as I am the guys I'm friends with, and I know they'll be seeing the hard times even harder with less wages in their pockets. Hell, I have no problem with the idea of shelling out more when I hit JW to make sure the future apprentices have an education available to them. Truth be told, I'm sure the feeling is mutual amongst a lot of the brothers, but there are just as many who are only looking out for themselves. 

Truth be told, the biggest concern about my situation I have is the lack of work, because it's leaving me behind the rest of the class in skill and training. Book work comes easy to me, but it doesn't make a ****'s difference how much the class has taught me when I can't apply it in real world training to reinforce it. In the end, it seems like a giant waste of time to commit to the program, when there's no work there to reinforce the learning process.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Quit the program.

You will find nepotism is epidemic.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

Believe me, quitting the program certainly is an option, just one I don't want to take. Sure, I could chase a degree with the 60% of the Post-9/11 GI Bill I'm entitled to, sit behind a desk, be a miserable bastard while pencil whipping my way through bull**** paperwork. I've done the cubicle job. Sure, I'm a bit angry about my current situation and with that of the local, but I'd kill myself if I had to sit behind a desk again for more than a day. I've never felt more worthless than when I was doing menial, bull**** paperwork, try it yourself sometime, you'll see. 

Quitting is an option I try my damnedest not to take. Sure, I'm pissed, and there are plenty of other apprenticeship programs out there (railroad, sheetmetal, plumbers, and god forbid, insulation), but I want to stick this out. Doesn't mean I'm not going to disagree with the local, or vent angrily about it, even it if does look like they're going to screw the apprentices as a whole on their decisions. 

I posted here, really, to look for advice on the matter. I've been told to consult with a representative and do a bit more digging on the financial reasons as to why the local is trying to vote this through, and I'll hound the JATC about work, or being able to work open shop until they can find me something, anything. I didn't initially come to stir the pot, but it seems to be an underlying, habitual thing I have to grab that ladle and give it a big whirl. That and being pissed. I'm still pissed. Booze is just making it easier to cope with. Don't let my spelling and punctuation fool you, I'm quite a ways into a bottle of bourbon. 

At least in the morning, I'll be the one with the giant headache and no real resolution to the issue at hand.


And I thoroughly hate nepotistic asshats. Just because someone works in a trade, doesn't mean their halfwit child or nephew/niece deserves a shot about someone else because of relation. Prove your worth or GTFO. Last thing the union needs is more wire pullers that can't do **** else.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Join up with the non-union program, check out IEC. You can always come back down the road.....


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

It sucks in most places right now. I wish I had some advice for you. The economy in this country is just not geared for working people,it is geared for people who are already wealthy.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

/\/\ My thoughts exactly. Joys of being lower/middle class.

I've thought about IEC. I don't know if they have a program out here in Memphis, though. It most certainly is an option, though. One to contemplate more when I'm not half way through a bottle of Old Ezra, however.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Wandering Idiot said:


> One to contemplate more when I'm not half way through a bottle of Old Ezra, however.


Don't die on the vine... 

I'm glad you're an idealist, but it's time to keep it real.

Don't go non-union and then get sucked up into some BS organizing deal either.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> Honestly, your bent over a barrel right now. Not much you can do.
> 
> Lube up and brace for impact.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Welcome to my world.

And in fact, the _rest_ of the world. Where if you want an education, you have to pay for it.

I've been paying for my ABC "craft training" for 2 years. That, and without the cushy union pay.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

In my local, apprentices have been paying for school as long as I know of. Also books. They pay reduced dues to "compensate" for the expense.

Had a friend in a similar pickle, finished school but did not have hours to 
be thru. JATC not real helpful.

Hope you find a solution that works for you. Lots of bad times all around.


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## Wandering Idiot (Jul 20, 2010)

Welp, didn't drown in the bottle. 

I'm going to talk to someone at the hall or the JATC office about it today. I'm much more calm about the whole situation now, still peeved about the lack of them bothering to inform us about it. Hell, a simple notice passed out to the class or a few words from the training director would have been nice. I would have still been pissed about it, but at least I wouldn't have had to find out through the grape vine.


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

*come on*

There are too many people in this trade nowadays that want to put the blame on everyone else. Have you ever thought that the fact that you haven't worked very much at all might be your own damn fault? The way that you write/talk too much tells me that you might be over thinking everything too much and not willing to put your nose to the grindstone and earn your keep on the job. Too many apprentices don't want to pay their dues. They want everything handed to them. Not everyone is meant to be a union electrician, just like not everyone is meant to be a famous actor or NBA player, etc. If you want this, then work your ass off for it. It doesn't come easy. You made a comment about a wire pull. Everyone can do that, a monkey can. You have to be willing to stand out from the crowd, be valuable. It is not being a "suckass" either, it is making yourself valuable. Believe in the trade, the union way, or get out and do something totally different. Union is the only way to work in construction, it is a no brainer. If you can't do that, you shouldn't do electrical work.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

idioteque83 said:


> Believe in the trade, the union way, or get out and do something totally different.  Union is the only way to work in construction, it is a no brainer. If you can't do that, you shouldn't do electrical work.


Yeah, good luck with that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

idioteque83 said:


> Believe in the trade, the union way, or get out and do something totally different. Union is the only way to work in construction, it is a no brainer. If you can't do that, you shouldn't do electrical work.


 
Boy that seems to be a pro-American stance. My way or the highway.

I say we shoot the open shop electricians?

And how much of the market share do you have in Memphis?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Boy that seems to be a pro-American stance. My way or the highway.
> 
> I say we shoot the open shop electricians?
> 
> *And how much of the market share do you have in Memphis?*



Probably less then 10%.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Just heard the following

We have 9000 members

Close to 900 on the bench

Of that 900 typically there are 350 that are constant bench warmers even in the best of times, looking for short calls or work at the convention centers, supplimenting income?

We are currently interviewing apprentices.

Taking appplications for next year's apprentices.

Not taking any mechanics off the street at this time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Probably less then 10%.


 
If I were him, I'd be nice to those open shop men, you might be working for them some day.

And if you get out and do something totally different aren't you hurting another union. What are you selfish?


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> Boy that seems to be a pro-American stance. My way or the highway.
> 
> I say we shoot the open shop electricians?
> 
> And how much of the market share do you have in Memphis?


I am just saying it is the only smart way to work. Here in Memphis, in construction, it is just about the only way to get a decent retirement, health and welfare, etc. Non-union is a neverending begging game where you step on the next guys neck and suck ass to get ahead. Sure you might get a decent deal at an open shop since it is a free agency, but to me its not worth it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

idioteque83 said:


> I am just saying it is the only smart way to work. Here in Memphis, in construction, it is just about the only way to get a decent retirement, health and welfare, etc. Non-union is a neverending begging game where you step on the next guys neck and suck ass to get ahead. Sure you might get a decent deal at an open shop since it is a free agency, but to me its not worth it.


Thanks for the clarification.

Are you working?


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

I have never missed a day that I didn't want to. I work hard, very hard and do my job. Not bragging, I just think thats what it takes to stand out and make yourself someone worth keeping. If you make yourself valuable, it doesn't matter who you work for, when times get slow, the shop is going to find somewhere to put your time.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

idioteque83 said:


> I have never missed a day that I didn't want to. I work hard, very hard and do my job. Not bragging, I just think thats what it takes to stand out and make yourself someone worth keeping. If you make yourself valuable, it doesn't matter who you work for, when times get slow, the shop is going to find somewhere to put your time.


Amazing how I can agree with you despite being non-union.


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

I think a lot of the disagreements union/non union arise from bad personal experiences people have had with the other side. I will agree that there are alot of people in the union that give the union the bad perception it gets. There are alot of really good guys that are union though. Just as I know there are really good non union guys. The only difference is that I am bright eyed enough to still believe in the union. I believe it is an important factor still in the labor movement. You can believe in that and still work hard everyday, cant you? I think thats what its all about.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Amazing how I can agree with you despite being non-union.


Why would that make a difference?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> Why would that make a difference?


That was exactly my point.



> Non-union is a neverending begging game where you step on the next guys neck and suck ass to get ahead.


That kind of mentality only drives a wedge between both sectors, and in my opinion undermines the overall goal of a union. Brotherhood my @ss if you're gonna spit on how I try to make it in this world.

I'm repeating myself from the other day, but who _wouldn't_ want union benefits and pay? People base a lot of their decisions on how much money they will be making, so there's a reason why the IBEW doesn't have 90% of the market cornered. I'll let the union boys figure that out.


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

i just don't understand why so many non union people would want to hang out on a union thread. well i really could guess why, but I don't think I have to say it.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

idioteque83 said:


> i just don't understand why so many non union people would want to hang out on a union thread. well i really could guess why, but I don't think I have to say it.


Alright, let me into your local then.


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

come on down they will let anyone in


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

idioteque83 said:


> i just don't understand why so many non union people would want to hang out on a union thread. well i really could guess why, but I don't think I have to say it.


Who is open shop?


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## idioteque83 (May 19, 2009)

it sounded to me like frisbee was


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

idioteque83 said:


> it sounded to me like frisbee was


He is, but said so many people.

In an open forum you get all kinds posting in any of the threads.


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## Stan B. (Jul 25, 2008)

idioteque83 said:


> I think a lot of the disagreements union/non union arise from bad personal experiences people have had with the other side.


I think you are very wrong about that.


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