# Flat roof install



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Might be hack, but what about getting some of those patio umbrella bases, fill with concrete, and insert a piece of rigid in that for your mast.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Satilite dishes and solar panels are often help in place with ballast.


Here is an example http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=393244&eventPage=1

You fill them with concrete block


I would put an additional rubber between it and the roof.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Good ideas. I think it may be one of those "creative" trips to the hardware store today. I really don't want to drill into the roof. If it turns out really ugly, I will post pics.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

be a good idea if the fixtures included the tip over switches. those concrete umbrella stands are great, but I don't know if they qualify for 100 mph winds (isn't that the requirement everywhere now ?)


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

As promised. I think they will work out ok. Flange is bolted to 3 pieces of strut under pan.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Flood*

What size flood and type is that? and what finished height above parking lot is that?? I just landed a job exactly like that 1 hr ago x 25lights. Same scenario


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

should have drilled some holes in that pane so it doesn't collect water.....


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think I would have just mounted some strut to the roof and then bolted the base to the strut


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> I think I would have just mounted some strut to the roof and then bolted the base to the strut


You would make holes in the roof?

Not me.


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You would make holes in the roof?
> 
> Not me.


I would. With a 5 gal bucket or roof repair. Not worried at all


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

JoeKP said:


> I would. With a 5 gal bucket or roof repair. Not worried at all


I hope you are kidding.

Most commercial roofs have long term warranties (some as long as 30 years) that you can void by making and sealing your own penetrations. This can cause a large amount of grief to the customer.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I hope you are kidding.
> 
> Most commercial roofs have long term warranties (some as long as 30 years) that you can void by making and sealing your own penetrations. This can cause a large amount of grief to the customer.


So could the light flying off the roof in high winds.


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

I think I would add just a few more blocks.......


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bbsound said:


> I think I would add just a few more blocks.......


That I agree with, blocks are cheap. 

I recently installed an fairly small antenna on a roof with a ballast mount I used more block and they were solids not hollow.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> You would make holes in the roof?
> 
> Not me.



I aint skeered. 

I hate seeing blocks holding things in place. Reminds me of dish installations :jester: I think it could blow down in a strong storm wind.

If I was really concerned about liability, I'd get a roofer to install something for me to mount to but, in most cases, I know enough to take care of it. 

I know I would NOT be using roof mastic. Hell, simple acrylic latex caulk works better than that crap and it washes off your hands/tools/shoes with ease.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

220/221 said:


> I aint skeered.


I know you are not, I am duly impressed. :laughing::jester:




> I think it could blow down in a strong storm wind.


I am with you there, I would use more blocks. 

We do tons of solar still and almost all of it is ballasted in place. 

Here is the mount I recently took over, it was on the roof where I needed to put a fire alarm system antenna up. It had the four darker concrete blocks but I added the 8 solid ones just to make sure it could not move. The antenna we mounted on it was just a skinny 10' fiberglass unit.

We even took over the conduit that had been run so we did not have to make a roof penetration.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I use that style mount for antennas and lights all the time, works just fine. Considering those mounts are often rated to 100 MPH I'd be more worried about the rest of the building if it blew over.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

JoeKP said:


> should have drilled some holes in that pane so it doesn't collect water.....


I did


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Here is the mount I recently took over, it was on the roof where I needed to put a fire alarm system antenna up. It had the four darker concrete blocks but I added the 8 solid ones just to make sure it could not move. The antenna we mounted on it was just a skinny 10' fiberglass unit.


I've yet to see one even move with a fairly large dish on it. A little MH flood, a fiberglass omni antenna or any other small antenna isn't catching enough air to pull a ballasted mount over.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Cletis said:


> What size flood and type is that? and what finished height above parking lot is that?? I just landed a job exactly like that 1 hr ago x 25lights. Same scenario


Glad to hear it. These are 400 MH from Buddy. 25' up. The consensus seems to be more blocks, so I will add a couple more on each one next trip. The blocks are about 30lbs and solid, so I have over 150 now, plus strut. 

And the roof was NOT concrete under the gravel and tar. I drilled a small test hole to see and it went through a few inches of that foam board like they use behind stucco, then a big hollow space. I tarred it up good. So mounting TO the roof was not an option.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

I have heard those mounts like what BBQ posted, called "non-penetrating roof mounts", they seem to do well for sat. dishes, never would have thought of using them to mount floodlights.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Putting a hole through a roof like that is a 100% guaranteed way to lose money ~ you just voided the warranty on that roof.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Putting a hole through a roof like that is a 100% guaranteed way to lose money ~ you just voided the warranty on that roof.


A 3/16 hole on the edge of the roof that I filled and tarred better than what was there originally...I won't lose any sleep.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Cement blocks are not considered a permanent method of attaching a fixture to a roof. No way that is passing grade with AHJ.

And now, your loading the roof with dead weight, which is concentrated in 1 sq ft. That is not kosher either. How is the conduit, and JB secured?

Roof penetrations are common, and accepted. Conduit. HVAC, lighting. Use 4" deck screws and tar.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> Cement blocks are not considered a permanent method of attaching a fixture to a roof. No way that is passing grade with AHJ.


Going to need a code reference for that.

Tens of thousands of solar panels are put in place using nothing but concrete blocks, inspected and approved.



> And now, your loading the roof with dead weight, which is concentrated in 1 sq ft. That is not kosher either.


In the case of the solar panels we install a structural engineer signs off on it or we can't do it. 




> How is the conduit, and JB secured?


'Sleepers' and those are also common and allowed.

Check out this pic, it is not our work but it shows a common ballasted PV array and conduits and gas line supported by 'sleepers'.













> Roof penetrations are common, and accepted.



Often not so due to roofing warranties.

It sounds like you are trying to say the way you do it is the only acceptable way and that is simply not true.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm not really sure. After the hurricane, I am sure codes will change.

We just ran a conduit through a roof for HVAC work. Pitch pocket, filled it with tar, and was done.

Even in the picture, I see 2 vent stacks through the roof. 

The gas line is secured on both ends, and not going any where in high winds, due to it's inherent shape.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The reason solar arrays are allowed to do that is they know in a couple years they will be tearing them off the roof anyway. They look at it as a temporary situation. haha.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> I'm not really sure. After the hurricane, I am sure codes will change.


Our ballasted solar arrays are typically designed around either 100 or 120 MPH winds.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Our ballasted solar arrays are typically designed around either 100 or 120 MPH winds.


I would say 120 MPH if the winds come from the right, and 100 MPH if the winds come from the left. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Roof penetrations are common, and accepted. Conduit. HVAC, lighting. Use 4" deck screws and tar.



So you are telling me that the roofing manufac. and/or roofing contractor accepts your penetrations in membrane, or similar, roofs ...in writing?

...or is this more of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of arrangement?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Celtic said:


> So you are telling me that the roofing manufac. and/or roofing contractor accepts your penetrations in membrane, or similar, roofs ...in writing?
> 
> ...or is this more of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of arrangement?


Did you ever see an HVAC roof curb, and a pitch pocket ??


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Did you ever see an HVAC roof curb, and a pitch pocket ??


Yes.
I have them built by the roofer.
I am not a roofer.


Why do you ask?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm just pointing out to you... that roof penetrations are normal, and accepted. HVAC guys do it. Plumbers do it. Electricians do it. 

The guy who mounted those pole lights. How is the conduit getting to the roof ?


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> I'm just pointing out to you... that roof penetrations are normal, and accepted. HVAC guys do it. Plumbers do it. Electricians do it.
> 
> The guy who mounted those pole lights. How is the conduit getting to the roof ?


There were existing roof penetrations- 6" diameter pipes from the original install that all the rooftop hvac ran through. They were just filled with tar. We ran another conduit through and re-tarred.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> So you are telling me that the roofing manufac. and/or roofing contractor accepts your penetrations in membrane, or similar, roofs ...in writing?
> 
> ...or is this more of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of arrangement?


Dancing around my question is worse than just not answering it...
So which is it?





Spark Master said:


> I'm just pointing out to you... that roof penetrations are normal, and accepted. HVAC guys do it. Plumbers do it. Electricians do it.


Just because some guys do it, doesn't mean - by any stretch of the imagination - that it is done correctly.
When it develops a leak ~ who is coming to fix it?
You?






Spark Master said:


> The guy who mounted those pole lights. How is the conduit getting to the roof ?



The conduit is run by the EC.
The penetration is sealed by the RC.

What is so difficult for you to understand about that delineation of work?

Do you also unclog toilets when you swap out a fart fan..or maybe you just unclog the toilet and then continue to chew on your finger nails?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Celtic said:


> Dancing around my question is worse than just not answering it...
> So which is it?
> 
> 
> ...


you can't operate a screw driver and open a bucket of roof sealant ?
you can't screw down a pitch pocket with 4" screws, and fill it with tar?
and when the tar settles down in 6 months, I'll certainly run back on roof, and refill the pitch pocket, No problem at all.

you sound like one of those union types who are not allowed to touch tar, or complete a job without someone holding your hand.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Not that anybody gives a **** but Me or my company would never ever do a permanent install like this.
I would figure out a decent way to mount this and if I needed to hire a roofer so be it. That install is as hack as it gets. Sorry.
Now if that is a temporary lighting situation then I think it is a good set up.
It funny that this forum with all the worry about being sued thinks this is OK, because it is not OK. When some maint. guy moves those blocks to another spot and the lights fall on a car who they gonna call.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Not that anybody gives a **** but Me or my company would never ever do a permanent install like this.
> I would figure out a decent way to mount this and if I needed to hire a roofer so be it. That install is as hack as it gets. Sorry.
> Now if that is a temporary lighting situation then I think it is a good set up.
> It funny that this forum with all the worry about being sued thinks this is OK, because it is not OK. When some maint. guy moves those blocks to another spot and the lights fall on a car who they gonna call.


I agree. No inspector would accept that. That's a temporary installation. Try to get a UL cert on that job. I doubt it would happen.
I would do a wall pack, or not do it at all.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I agree. No inspector would accept that. That's a temporary installation. Try to get a UL cert on that job. I doubt it would happen.
> I would do a wall pack, or not do it at all.


But,but,but they do it with satellite dishes. Why shouldn't it be ok?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> you can't operate a screw driver and open a bucket of roof sealant ?
> you can't screw down a pitch pocket with 4" screws, and fill it with tar?
> and when the tar settles down in 6 months, I'll certainly run back on roof, and refill the pitch pocket, No problem at all.
> 
> you sound like one of those union types who are not allowed to touch tar, or complete a job without someone holding your hand.


You simply won't answer a simple question.
Let the downward spiral begin :thumbsup:

I'll take it that you don't give a crap about anyone else's work or warranty.
You just come in "slam-jam-and-scram" and give them a brake light warranty.

Good luck and keep chewing your fingernails :thumbup:



> What is your electrical related field/trade:
> "plant electrician plant engineer"


....make up your mind already...LOL


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Celtic said:


> You simply won't answer a simple question.
> Let the downward spiral begin :thumbsup:
> 
> I'll take it that you don't give a crap about anyone else's work or warranty.
> ...


I do plumbing too. carpentry too. MASTER of many trades. You appearently are rather limited. Sorry to hear that.
for anyone else interested, googgle PIPE BOOTs, and Patecurbs. They work well.


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## 123electric (Jun 3, 2012)

Have welding shop look at it to conform a structural mount that is compact and actually works.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I do plumbing too. carpentry too. MASTER of many trades. You appearently are rather limited. Sorry to hear that.


The only thing you heard were the voices in your head :laughing:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I'm just pointing out to you... that roof penetrations are normal, and accepted. HVAC guys do it. Plumbers do it. Electricians do it.


 We do all of our penetrations.


But, the roofers do all the boots and final sealing.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Spark Master said:


> I agree. No inspector would accept that. That's a temporary installation. Try to get a UL cert on that job. I doubt it would happen.
> I would do a wall pack, or not do it at all.


WTF you talking about. 

I use these mounts for SCADA and network antennas all the time. Sometimes going through the roof is not wanted by the customer or is simply not needed because all our equipment is outside the building.

We also do an huge amounts of roof penetrations, earthier ourselves or our roofing sub does it if warranty is an issue, a bucket of tar is not always the thing for every roof. 

Every project is different, you have to be open to all options and ways of doing things.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

because that pole mounted fixture is TOP heavy. 

and how can it be considered permenant if you can lift it, and move it over 2 feet in any direction?
or make the seal tite 10 feet, and move the fixture 10 feet in any direction.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

And?


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Not that anybody gives a **** but Me or my company would never ever do a permanent install like this.
> I would figure out a decent way to mount this and if I needed to hire a roofer so be it. That install is as hack as it gets. Sorry.
> Now if that is a temporary lighting situation then I think it is a good set up.
> It funny that this forum with all the worry about being sued thinks this is OK, because it is not OK. When some maint. guy moves those blocks to another spot and the lights fall on a car who they gonna call.


1. I can not imagine a situation where someone would (a) have access to the roof AND (b) feel any inclination to move the blocks AND (c) be dumb enough to move the blocks.

2. When the maintenance guy changing bulbs fails to re-install the cover screws on a lens for a fixture you installed and it falls on someones head "who they gonna call"? I left the installation in a manner that will be there as long as the building. I am not liable for someone tampering with the installation in THIS, or in ANY location.:thumbsup:


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> because that pole mounted fixture is TOP heavy.
> 
> and how can it be considered permenant if you can lift it, and move it over 2 feet in any direction?
> or make the seal tite 10 feet, and move the fixture 10 feet in any direction.


40lbs on top and 200lbs on bottom is considered top heavy? on a 3' high pole?:laughing:


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Honestly said:


> 40lbs on top and 200lbs on bottom is considered top heavy? on a 3' high pole?:laughing:


 
so get permits, and get the job inspected, and let us know how it goes.
and show me the UL listing on those cement blocks.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> so get permits, and get the job inspected, and let us know how it goes.
> and show me the UL listing on those cement blocks.


...all of a sudden you care about documentation?
:laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Honestly said:


> 1. I can not imagine a situation where someone would (a) have access to the roof AND (b) feel any inclination to move the blocks AND (c) be dumb enough to move the blocks.
> 
> 2. When the maintenance guy changing bulbs fails to re-install the cover screws on a lens for a fixture you installed and it falls on someones head "who they gonna call"? * I left the installation in a manner that will be there as long as the building.* I am not liable for someone tampering with the installation in THIS, or in ANY location.:thumbsup:


No you didn't. That was just a lazy install. Nothing permanent about it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> so get permits, and get the job inspected, and let us know how it goes.
> and show me the UL listing on those cement blocks.


That is just funny.

Can you show me the UL listing on nuts and bolts?

Or how about just a requirement for any of the above to be listed?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

It's often done, and often passes inspection. Maybe someone should post the IBC section that prohibits it?

If someone is worried about the blocks being moved, they could pour a solid pad, put that'd be a good 50% labor increase over just setting blocks.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> It's often done, and often passes inspection. Maybe someone should post the IBC section that prohibits it?
> 
> If someone is worried about the blocks being moved, they could pour a solid pad, put that'd be a good 50% labor increase over just setting blocks.
> 
> -John


Considering we get engineering sign offs on our ballasted PV arrays I really doubt there is any code that prohibits it.

Besides sparkmaster is looking more like a troll with each post. :laughing:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

http://www.commercialproductsgroup....ries/pipe-portal-system/5-HolePipePortal.aspx

The above company makes roof penetrations in many different shapes and sizes. Above is a fancy one.

There are so many things wrong with the above posts, It's incredible.
We make money, because we know how to properly penetrate a roof. Either a fancy product like the above, or a common pitch pocket. We know how to get the job done, and not call in other trades. And we stand behind our work, not to leak. Weather it's a bucket of tar, torch down material, chauking, flashing. If you can't do that, don't do commerical work.

The PV arrays are designed and UL approved to be ballasted down. The weight is distributed across the roof. The above pole design is creative, but the roof is now "point loaded" with 200lbs of static weight in one location. Probably 250lbs with the fixture, and IMT. Not to mention wind loads. Roofs are NOT designed to be point loaded. You have a snow load to content with, etc, etc.

If I were to do that job. I'd do a wall pack, or if the customer wanted the height of the pole, I'd anchor some lengths of strut to the side of the building, and strap the pole to the struts. Or for those who want to penetrate the roof, I'd get the above product with 2 portals. One for the pole, which I would secure to a roof joist inside, and one for the conduit.

That installation is not permanent by any NEC means.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> http://www.commercialproductsgroup....ries/pipe-portal-system/5-HolePipePortal.aspx
> 
> The above company makes roof penetrations in many different shapes and sizes. Above is a fancy one.


Yes they are certainly available.

Do you also know they have to be the correct ones installed by certain roofers to maintain the warranty on many roofing systems?





> We make money, because we know how to properly penetrate a roof. Either a fancy product like the above, or a common pitch pocket. We know how to get the job done, and not call in other trades.


If we have to penetrate the roof we call in a roofer. 





> And we stand behind our work, not to leak. Weather it's a bucket of tar, torch down material, chauking, flashing. If you can't do that, don't do commerical work.


:laughing:

If you think you can do your own roof repairs on alll commercial roofs God bless you. :laughing:

http://www.firestonebpco.com/owners/protectinvestment/



> The PV arrays are designed and UL approved to be ballasted down. The weight is distributed across the roof. The above pole design is creative, but the roof is now "point loaded" with 200lbs of static weight in one location. Probably 250lbs with the fixture, and IMT. Not to mention wind loads. Roofs are NOT designed to be point loaded. You have a snow load to content with, etc, etc.


You are guessing and grasping at straws.



> That installation is not permanent by any NEC means.


Please guide us to the code section being violated.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't get it. There was a thread not too long ago and a bunch of people didn't want to do their own penetrations through a house eve for a service.

But now any commercial roof just drill a hole in it and smear tar all over like a tard. 

:lol:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You are guessing and grasping at straws.


It's obvious you are limited to doing electrical work. Which limits the types of jobs you are able to take on.

So get off the commerical roof top, and crawl around resi attics. :thumbsup:


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I don't get it. There was a thread not too long ago and a bunch of people didn't want to do their own penetrations through a house eve for a service.
> 
> But now any commercial roof just drill a hole in it and smear tar all over like a tard.
> 
> :lol:


so run another 200' of conduit, so you can punch a hole through a wall, and then go over the roof, and back to where you need to be. Nothing illegal about it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Please guide us to the code section being violated.


...Crickets chirping...


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Show us the code section that laying cement blocks are an approved method of securing a fixture. :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> ...Crickets chirping...


Its not a code. Its common sense.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> Show us the code section that laying cement blocks are an approved method of securing a fixture. :laughing:


:laughing:

That is not how the code works.:no:

But if we want to play that game please show the code section that allows lags to support a fixture.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

So I guess the haters would say these or the B-Line equivalents are illegal products.

http://www.erico.com/products.asp?folderID=189

They just sit on the roof.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Its not a code. Its common sense.


I'm the first one that will punch a hole in a roof if the situation allows, it doesn't always.

The mounts are common and accepted. Like I said I use them for antennas a lot, often when the utility is leasing the use of convenient building for mounting instead of having us put up a tower. 


Now I will say the OP may run into problems with making his own mounts should questions like "whats the proper amount of ballast?" "wind load?" or the like come up from the AHJ


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

wall mounted pole would have been my first choice but if you have to come up with some type of non penetrating roof mount maybe a air condensor hurricane pad would have been a more certain choice, at least its designed for that.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> IWe do tons of solar still and almost all of it is ballasted in place.


Every solar job I have seen gets nut and bolted through the flat roof... these guys are not afraid about roof penetration...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Every solar job I have seen gets nut and bolted through the flat roof... these guys are not afraid about roof penetration...


My bet is what you have seen is not on flat roof commercial (the topic of this thread) and as far as being afraid, no.

It costs less and is faster to go with a ballasted system. 

Of course we bolt it or clamp it down on pitched roofs.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> My bet is what you have seen is not on flat roof commercial (the topic of this thread) and as far as being afraid, no.
> 
> It costs less and is faster to go with a ballasted system.
> 
> Of course we bolt it or clamp it down on pitched roofs.


Yes... these were commercial flat roofs with 2" foam insulation on top of sheet metal panels...

They used strips of self sealing membrane where any penetrations were made...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Gon9za3lez said:


> Satilite dishes and solar panels are often help in place with ballast.


Its good to know that you guys are getting your wiring methods from the satellite guys. Maybe when you get laid off you will be able to install dish network for your friends.
Big difference between a couple fifty pound fixtures and a five pound rounded dish.


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## Honestly (Feb 3, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> Its good to know that you guys are getting your wiring methods from the satellite guys. Maybe when you get laid off you will be able to install dish network for your friends.
> Big difference between a couple fifty pound fixtures and a five pound rounded dish.


Yeah, like 45 pounds. Actually the fixture was about 40, so that would be 35 pounds difference. _Probably_ not going to cave the roof in. You have made the point that you don't like the install. You have yet to point out a code violation. So how about quitting whining and instead doing something productive? :thumbsup:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I never said it was against any codes. Just a half assed install.
I am sure your pipe work looks great though.


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