# GFCI Location



## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

While teaching my code class yesterday we started on the discussion of "readily accessible" as mandated by 210.8. Since the majority of the receptacles, outlets, and devices have to be AFCI protected, it would only make sense to use AFCI breakers. In the areas where GFCIs are required they must be readily accessible. Given that there is room, what would be wrong with coming out of the side of the panelboard with each circuit into a faceless GFCI mounted adjacent to the panelboard. This circuit would either return back to the panelboard and then exit from the top or bottom, or use a wireway where all the circuits would exit from it. Picture your "breaker panel" and next to it is a column of faceless GFCIs labeled for each circuit they protect. Am I over thinking this?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Magoo5150 said:


> While teaching my code class yesterday we started on the discussion of "readily accessible" as mandated by 210.8. Since the majority of the receptacles, outlets, and devices have to be AFCI protected, it would only make sense to use AFCI breakers. In the areas where GFCIs are required they must be readily accessible. Given that there is room, what would be wrong with coming out of the side of the panelboard with each circuit into a faceless GFCI mounted adjacent to the panelboard. This circuit would either return back to the panelboard and then exit from the top or bottom, or use a wireway where all the circuits would exit from it. Picture your "breaker panel" and next to it is a column of faceless GFCIs labeled for each circuit they protect. Am I over thinking this?


They make combo GFCI/AFCI breakers now.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I've never done it nor seen it done, but I've heard of it being done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Mounting them next to panel in a neat & workmanlike manner seems readily accessible and yes, the labeling would be a good idea. 
The code section says the locations shall be provided with GFCI protection, not a GFCI device in the areas. 

Although it might be inconvenient if some of these GFCI protected locations didn't contain the actual GFCI device. I have considered doing this for some circuits, but not all circuits required to be GFCI protected.


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Makes sense for a disposal, Magoo. It's got to the point now to just AFCI/GFCI every single pole breaker in a panel tho. $$$


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

3xdad said:


> Makes sense for a disposal, Magoo. It's got to the point now to just AFCI/GFCI every single pole breaker in a panel tho. $$$


Thats along the line of what I was thinking. By the time you factored in the extra time and cost associated, why not just go with AFCI/GFCI breakers. Thanks for the replies.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Of course as others have said, the combos are more practical, however your discussion was about "readily accessible". So I assume it was just exploring alternate options.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Price for Arcfault breaker $40.20
Price for dead front GFCI $21.02

Price for dual function breaker, 
GFCI/AFCI $49.70

And you still haven't bought the box, fittings or the labor to 
Install. Go with the breaker.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> Price for Arcfault breaker $40.20
> Price for dead front GFCI $21.02
> 
> Price for dual function breaker,
> ...


Best way


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

Agreed, we were just discussing options and compliant installations.


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## sparky278 (Apr 8, 2015)

plus you can't use the panel as a raceway, taking circuits to the device from inside panel and back into the panel and out.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky278 said:


> plus you can't use the panel as a raceway, taking circuits to the device from inside panel and back into the panel and out.


Says who?


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

sparky278 said:


> plus you can't use the panel as a raceway, taking circuits to the device from inside panel and back into the panel and out.


Not so. Read 312.8. Using a panelboard as a raceway is a very common and code compliant method.


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

@Magoo5150...MHO is that a combo breaker would be the way to go. Keeps all AFCI/GFCI functions in one central location.


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## sparky278 (Apr 8, 2015)

Magoo5150 said:


> Not so. Read 312.8. Using a panelboard as a raceway is a very common and code compliant method.


312.8 no its not, as per our AHJ. if we do panel change outs and the conductors are short we have to add a junction box to lengthen the conductors. as some other forums (mike holt) they say the same you can not use that as a raceway. of course in other areas they might interpret this a different way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky278 said:


> 312.8 no its not, as per our AHJ......


Your AHJ needs a bit of education.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

sparky278 said:


> 312.8 no its not, as per our AHJ. if we do panel change outs and the conductors are short we have to add a junction box to lengthen the conductors. as some other forums (mike holt) they say the same you can not use that as a raceway. of course in other areas they might interpret this a different way.


I agree it makes for a nicer installation to make the splices elsewhere but it is not against code to do it in the cabinet as long as conditions 1,2,and 3 are met. I do not believe this would be up for interpretation by the AHJ.


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## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

There could be a local ammendment but it would have to be in writing.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sparky278 said:


> plus you can't use the panel as a raceway, taking circuits to the device from inside panel and back into the panel and out.


That's a Code Tail(wives tail).


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Practical - install GFCI / AFCI combo overcurrent devices 'or'
install AFCI breaker and install readily accessible GFCI receptacle(s) in the areas that need to be protected.

Non-Practical, but permitted - install AFCI overcurrent devices in panel and readily accessible blank GFCI devices at the beginning of the circuit, adjacent to the panelboard.


Maybe someone has a bunch of AFCI breakers left over and one or two of the areas needing ground-fault protection don't have a readily accessible outlet for a GFCI receptacle. You could buy a combo device or just buy a simple blank GFCI and put it by the panel. A whole bunch of them though would be a lot more labor cost and better just get the combos.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Only the circuits that don't allow other outlets would need the more expensive faceless GFCI's.

Many circuits you could just use cheaper GFCI receptacles.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I thought the combo AFCI breakers were for series and parallel arcs?


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## pjholguin (May 16, 2014)

You are right aftershockews about combination AFCI Breakers...the AFCI & GFCI breakers are called dual function.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

sparky278 said:


> 312.8 no its not, as per our AHJ. if we do panel change outs and the conductors are short we have to add a junction box to lengthen the conductors. as some other forums (mike holt) they say the same you can not use that as a raceway. of course in other areas they might interpret this a different way.


That's a good rule and makes perfect senses when you think about it.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

aftershockews said:


> I thought the combo AFCI breakers were for series and parallel arcs?




I meant dual function.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

I overheard the Home Depot associate tell a customer that the Square D AFCI's breakers will work in either a QO or Homeline panel because they're combinations


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Maximumbob said:


> I overheard the Home Depot associate tell a customer that the Square D AFCI's breakers will work in either a QO or Homeline panel because they're combinations


Sometimes when I'm at HD I help the customers because they look confused and no one is around to give them legit advice.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Kaffeene said:


> Sometimes when I'm at HD I help the customers because they look confused and no one is around to give them legit advice.


I do this as well. It feels good help them before the "HD pro's" get a hold of them.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

backstay said:


> They make combo GFCI/AFCI breakers now.


They will come in handy...


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