# Rolling offsets



## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Will post the new pics tomorrow of the new run.


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

not sure what else u could of done. looks good


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...why not make the roll before coming up thru floor? Its only pipe and wire, doesn't look horrible IMO


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

360max said:


> ...why not make the roll before coming up thru floor? Its only pipe and wire, doesn't look horrible IMO


Had a very tight window to get those pipes up. They had to go up that way and in that spot. Or else yes would have loved to have them rolled beforehand.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

I would not have made you take them down


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Would you have an issue with how these are ran? They are rolling parallel offsets coming up from the floor below. Jman wanted both bends to match. Had to take down and bend 30, 25.5, 20,15.5 degree bends respectively.
> 
> Wi


That's stupid he made you do that. If you do your parallel rolls with the same degree but shift your start (tangent of half the degree bent multiplied by your center to center spacing) and put your shortest one in front you get a real nice fan with each consecutive conduit appearing at equidistant intervals. It would've taken less work and looked much better.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

360max said:


> I would not have made you take them down


 Agreed. It works. It doesn't look bad. What's the problem?

If your boss was smart, he'd let it slide, and tell you how to do it different next time.

And if he was really smart he'd realize it works, and it looks fine, and worrying about it is cutting into the profit.


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

Heck one of my Chuckle heads did that.. I would more than likely had a heart attack on the spot. Looks Good! he is being a pr!ck.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Refer him to this page so maybe he'll realize how ridiculous he's being.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

TGGT said:


> Refer him to this page so maybe he'll realize how ridiculous he's being.


Haha I thought it looked fine too. Wanted to hear from others to see if I was on an island by myself. Don't think I will rub anything in though he could have me sweeping floors. I take pride in my work and needed some input.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Haha I thought it looked fine too. Wanted to hear from others to see if I was on an island by myself. Don't think I will rub anything in though he could have me sweeping floors. I take pride in my work and needed some input.


wait, so the pics you posted are the before shot that your jman is making you take down? what specifically does he want you to do differently?


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> wait, so the pics you posted are the before shot that your jman is making you take down? what specifically does he want you to do differently?


Yes thats before shot the pipe i had to redo. He wanted the seconds bends to all line up. Which meant keeping the distance between bends the same and changing the angles.


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## buddhakii (Jan 13, 2011)

I think it looks fine but I'm not the guy running the job so it doesn't really matter what I think. Can't wait to see the new pictures of how it changed the look though. My guess is it still looks like conduit offset to the wall. I do like how yours have nice long offsets though making an easier pull.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Yes thats before shot the pipe i had to redo. He wanted the seconds bends to all line up. *Which meant keeping the distance between bends the same and changing the angles*.


good god, that doesn't work worth a f***. sucks when you got idiots telling you how to do your job. do it like I said before and tell him to GFY. Just kidding- do not do that!


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Would you have an issue with how these are ran? They are rolling parallel offsets coming up from the floor below. Jman wanted both bends to match. Had to take down and bend 30, 25.5, 20,15.5 degree bends respectively.
> 
> Wi


Your journeyman / foreman is being an idiot a d I wouldn't be surprised if he makes you put those back in when the different degree 'd offsets look worse , lol ? Correct me if I'm wrong , is this a closet or mechanical room in a hospital ? All kinds of people will never ever see those bends , nor care how the wire got from " a " to " b " . I'm all for workmanship , but it was done , lol ! If he wanted something different , he should have specified that before you started !


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> good god, that doesn't work worth a f***. sucks when you got idiots telling you how to do your job. do it like I said before and tell him to GFY. Just kidding- do not do that!


I'd venture to say the new bends will look much worse , but maybe it's a T and M job , lol ! How many different ways can you run a riser through a mechanical space ? Well , lets see , lol ?


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## mattd88 (Aug 3, 2013)

He wanted the second bends to all line up? cut em off even about a foot above the strut and flip em over. see how he likes that.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

im trying to imagine it in my head. depending on your spacing coming up from the floor its probably not going to work. make sure to take a picture of this abortion for us


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> im trying to imagine it in my head. depending on your spacing coming up from the floor its probably not going to work. make sure to take a picture of this abortion for us


And save the old bends , as they'll most likely be going back in , lol !


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> And save the old bends , as they'll most likely be going back in , lol !


I was thinking the exact same thing :laughing::thumbup:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

judging by the comments I'm the odd one out. those bends scream out "I wanna make a name for myself" to me, and I bet there aren't any others like them in the joint, which is why I'm guessing that might be one of the reasons the foreman wants you to redo them (not like it's a major task, we're talking 2 sticks ? I'm guessing that maybe you didn't follow instructions in the first place, and that's why you are redoing them ?

hmm,oops, I just measured them - why are the sticks you bent 70" long each ? are you using 10' sticks ?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

wildleg said:


> judging by the comments I'm the odd one out. those bends scream out "I wanna make a name for myself" to me, and I bet there aren't any others like them in the joint, which is why I'm guessing that might be one of the reasons the foreman wants you to redo them (not like it's a major task, we're talking 2 sticks ? I'm guessing that maybe you didn't follow instructions in the first place, and that's why you are redoing them ?


hmmm I don't see that at all. what I see is the work of someone who is still working on refining their hand bending skills. with two measurements the installer could've gotten all the information needed to put up true rolling parallel offsets. this doesn't look awful but its far from being art


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I think it looks great. If I had just one apprentice who could bend pipe that well I would be a much happier project manager. Most of my apprentices are capable of straight forward bends but anything a little more complicated and they are lost.

Nice work:thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

He looked at it from the wrong angle. Plant his feet in the same location as your first picture, hand him a donut and say Va-La.

I can understand his logic to teach you about the second bend, but to not tell you first and make you redo it sounds stupid IMO.

On second thought, redo it, let him see it, when he smiles smash the donut in his face and say, GFY. 
I wouldn't have asked you to change it.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

wildleg said:


> judging by the comments I'm the odd one out. those bends scream out "I wanna make a name for myself" to me, and I bet there aren't any others like them in the joint, which is why I'm guessing that might be one of the reasons the foreman wants you to redo them (not like it's a major task, we're talking 2 sticks ? I'm guessing that maybe you didn't follow instructions in the first place, and that's why you are redoing them ?
> 
> hmm,oops, I just measured them - why are the sticks you bent 70" long each ? are you using 10' sticks ?


No instructions were given at the time. I told him the plan before I started. It was the most practical way to get to the wall. They are 10 foot sticks cut at 60" total length to allow for 1 foot to support before the pull box I have set up on top of those pipes. 

I put some time in my planning if that's what you mean by making a name for myself. 

I don't have a problem redoing them. Just wanted input on the different ways to do the run. Specifically the rolling offsets


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> No instructions were given at the time. I told him the plan before I started. It was the most practical way to get to the wall. They are 10 foot sticks cut at 60" total length to allow for 1 foot to support before the pull box I have set up on top of those pipes.
> 
> I put some time in my planning if that's what you mean by making a name for myself.
> 
> I don't have a problem redoing them. Just wanted input on the different ways to do the run. Specifically the rolling offsets


couple things. if you're putting a 12x12 on top of that I would've moved the whole thing to the right a little more. also I would have my strut spaced evenly through the pipes and lined up directly under the pull box. also I would've done 30s or 45s to put the pipes on the wall quicker- you probably wouldn't notice any difference in pulling difficulty. also whenever I have to come up through a floor like that away from the wall I'll screw a piece of strut down in front of the conduits if I think it will help. lastly, keeping the degrees the same and adjusting the spacing will always look better than what your captain is having you do


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

If someone else is responsible for your work then it's their business to judge it because they'd get in trouble if it didn't meet expectations. Plus they are paying you and you the subordinate. 

If it's gonna be hidden somewhere -- behind a wall, for example, who cares, right? And it's good enough for that. 

If its gonna be exposed then it should look nice or it reflects bad on you, the jman and your colleagues. "exposed" is debatable as it looks like few will see it where it is. 

Personally, i would not have run it like this. If anything I would have put the stub closest to the wall on the left, the next ones would have their bottom bends successively higher to avoid interference and all the upper bend would be at the same height and attach to a supporting strut at a lower Height-- similar to that of the insulated pipe coupling-looking thing on the left. By crossing them over the rolling offsets would not deviate from eachother as much. As it is now the one on the left has a much larger offset than the one one the right. 

Don't flame me I'm just expressing my opinion.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> couple things. if you're putting a 12x12 on top of that I would've moved the whole thing to the right a little more. also I would have my strut spaced evenly through the pipes and lined up directly under the pull box. also I would've done 30s or 45s to put the pipes on the wall quicker- you probably wouldn't notice any difference in pulling difficulty. also whenever I have to come up through a floor like that away from the wall I'll screw a piece of strut down in front of the conduits if I think it will help. lastly, keeping the degrees the same and adjusting the spacing will always look better than what your captain is having you do


The 12x12 box is to the left because of my path out of the room. Same with the pipes on left hand side of the strut 12" strut. They can go from there straight up and 90 thru the CMU wall. Any more left or right I will have pipes in the way or had to put more bends in. Those are all 30 degree bends.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Those are all 30 degree bends.


fooled me I guess


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

uconduit said:


> If someone else is responsible for your work then it's their business to judge it because they'd get in trouble if it didn't meet expectations. Plus they are paying you and you the subordinate.
> 
> If it's gonna be hidden somewhere -- behind a wall, for example, who cares, right? And it's good enough for that.
> 
> ...


In my opinion crossing pipes like that would look horrible. 

When he asked me to try it his way it was yes sir I will see what I can do no lip no grief on my end. Just happy to be running pipe. Not a bad way to spend the day.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Locknutz said:


> Would you have an issue with how these are ran? They are rolling parallel offsets coming up from the floor below. Jman wanted both bends to match. Had to take down and bend 30, 25.5, 20,15.5 degree bends respectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you use a Sharpie?  :001_huh: I would at least want to see the front conduit fixed. Not knowing where they go beyond that point, it's
hard to tell the other options. Me personally, I would have made my guys do something else, but we don't run EMT and most of our conduits are exposed.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Yes thats before shot the pipe i had to redo. He wanted the seconds bends to all line up. Which meant keeping the distance between bends the same and changing the angles.


yup. that is what he wants you to do.

he's a pipe tweaker... some folks are like that.
quickest way to accomplish that, in my experience,
with emt, is by eyeballing it, and leaving the bottom
end a bit long, so you can cut to fit.

seeing as he's making you get all anal about it, when
you pull the pipes off, cut all the risers even so the
couplings line up, then after you get everything bent,
cut the tops of the rolling offsets even, so those couplings
are even there as well.

he'll probably have an orgasm, so be warned.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Here is the new run with all the bends lined up. The pipes are bent at 30, 25, 20, 15. Jman is happy. Looks about the same to me.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Locknutz said:


> Here is the new run with all the bends lined up. The pipes are bent at 30, 25, 20, 15. Jman is happy. Looks about the same to me.


Very nice work, and I think they look 10 times better now then what you put up the first time.:thumbsup:


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Locknutz said:


> Here is the new run with all the bends lined up. The pipes are bent at 30, 25, 20, 15. Jman is happy. Looks about the same to me.


 
It does look "better".

But, if I walked past that everyday, you could switch them everyday and I wouldn't notice.


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

just b proud u can bend conduit like that most guys i know would b there a week n it wouldnt look half as good Nice Job


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## forsaledun (Nov 15, 2012)

I like the second version better but both would be acceptable to me.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Looks fine. I think your jman wasted your time making you redo it


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Looks fine. I think your jman wasted your time making you redo it


Locknutz gets paid by the hour, just like the J-man, so both of them made money by redoing it.

The company is the loser here.

Hey Rollie73, you asked my opinion of signing with the local. This is one of the clear disadvantageous to doing that.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Locknutz gets paid by the hour, just like the J-man, so both of them made money by redoing it.
> 
> The company is the loser here.
> 
> Hey Rollie73, you asked my opinion of signing with the local. This is one of the clear disadvantageous to doing that.


This isn't a union or non union thing hack. However the trigonometry that I used to get those angles is courtesy of the IBEW. It's more about the eye of the beholder. 

Don't ruin the thread with your prejudice


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

looks good!!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

That's a grade A time and material waste right there.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> This isn't a union or non union thing hack.


 I disagree. Your union J-Man made you throw away the contractor's money. That probably wouldn't have happened if he was non-union.



> Don't ruin the thread with your prejudice


If my exposing the truth ruins the thread, so be it.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

phil20 said:


> not sure what else u could of done. looks good




Use Trough and eliminate the the JCT Box .


Pipe looks great though !



Pete


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## NJWVUGrad (May 12, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Use Trough and eliminate the the JCT Box .
> 
> 
> Pipe looks great though !
> ...


exactly. one section of trough with an L could have avoided the whole thing.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Use Trough and eliminate the the JCT Box .
> 
> 
> Pipe looks great though !
> ...





NJWVUGrad said:


> exactly. one section of trough with an L could have avoided the whole thing.


...that's what benders are for, to avoid installs like you both suggested.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

360max said:


> list the trigonometry for each of those bends


First used Pythagoreans theorem to find distance of the rolling offset. Then used the cosecant of the angles To find the multiplier which would match the distance between the bends

If you need more help sign up at your local IBEW


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

360max said:


> ...that's what benders are for, to avoid installs like you both suggested.






To each their own .




Pete


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## NJWVUGrad (May 12, 2011)

360max said:


> ...that's what benders are for, to avoid installs like you both suggested.


Its a riser closet - would have required a lot less d**king around with the bender and conserved material.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

NJWVUGrad said:


> Its a riser closet - would have required a lot less d**king around with the bender and conserved material.


...it's just different ways to do the same thing, not saying any one way is wrong. Pulling wise, the way he installed it is better.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I disagree. That probably wouldn't have happened if he was non-union.


Why?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Would you have an issue with how these are ran? They are rolling parallel offsets coming up from the floor below. Jman wanted both bends to match. Had to take down and bend 30, 25.5, 20,15.5 degree bends respectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I owned the company, I would. There are perfectly good ways to complete an electrical job in a TIMELY...SAFE...and WORKMANLIKE manner without "CADILLAC-ING " the job.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Why?


Because it's part of the basic union mentality. You never mentioned that you were union in this thread, I knew it only because this type of thing doesn't happen often in the non-union world.

I've been there, right where you are now, redoing perfectly good work because my J-man didn't like something tiny. I've also been in the J-man's shoes making an apprentice do something over as well as the foreman's shoes making the J-man do something over.

I think back to it now and see how much of a waste it is on the contractor. But at the time we didn't care because we were paid hourly and the more work we did over, the further away we were to layoffs.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Because it's part of the basic union mentality. You never mentioned that you were union in this thread, I knew it only because this type of thing doesn't happen often in the non-union world.
> 
> I've been there, right where you are now, redoing perfectly good work because my J-man didn't like something tiny. I've also been in the J-man's shoes making an apprentice do something over as well as the foreman's shoes making the J-man do something over.
> 
> I think back to it now and see how much of a waste it is on the contractor. But at the time we didn't care because we were paid hourly and the more work we did over, the further away we were to layoffs.


Sounds more like a perspective of a bean counter than a skilled tradesman. JMO


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Sounds more like a perspective of a bean counter than a skilled tradesman. JMO


And your post sounds EXACTLY like what a typical union apprentice would say. 

As I mentioned, I have been in your shoes as well as many others and I gave my honest opinion.

My guess about you being union based solely on the actions you described was correct, wasn't it? :thumbsup:


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> And your post sounds EXACTLY like what a typical union apprentice would say.
> 
> As I mentioned, I have been in your shoes as well as many others and I gave my honest opinion.
> 
> My guess about you being union based solely on the actions you described was correct, wasn't it? :thumbsup:


Or, in between beans you looked at my past posts. :thumbsup:


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## NJWVUGrad (May 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Because it's part of the basic union mentality. You never mentioned that you were union in this thread, I knew it only because this type of thing doesn't happen often in the non-union world.
> 
> I've been there, right where you are now, redoing perfectly good work because my J-man didn't like something tiny. I've also been in the J-man's shoes making an apprentice do something over as well as the foreman's shoes making the J-man do something over.
> 
> I think back to it now and see how much of a waste it is on the contractor. But at the time we didn't care because we were paid hourly and the more work we did over, the further away we were to layoffs.


My mentality has definitely changed over time. Things I would go nuts over before, I don't get so heated about any more.

Depends on the job too - sometimes quality and effort is commensurate with pay/cost


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

It does look better, but I still think your boss was being ridiculous having you swap it out.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NJWVUGrad said:


> My mentality has definitely changed over time. Things I would go nuts over before, I don't get so heated about any more.
> 
> Depends on the job too - sometimes quality and effort is commensurate with pay/cost


I'm not against good work, especially when the situation calls for it. 

But in this situation, the first installation was perfectly fine, redoing it was nothing more than a J-man wasting his employer's money because he doesn't care. Unfortunately the apprentice is learning this same mentality.

Their mentality will change when they get to a level in which they actually have to produce in order to keep their jobs.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Big John said:


> It does look better, but I still think your boss was being ridiculous having you swap it out.


I agree.
It looks nicer but since its in a closet it isn't even show pipe. 
Maybe it was just a good opportunity for him to learn how to plan and bend show pipe? As long as the time was available on the job I might have had him do the same thing. Give the OP the donut & coffee for a job well done.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

This is a three year project that is just starting. Work is just getting going...lots of time. I had just transferred contractors and this was some of my first runs for my new foreman. Maybe it was a test, challenge, or learning opportunity, not sure. 

.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I'm not against good work, especially when the situation calls for it.
> 
> But in this situation, the first installation was perfectly fine, redoing it was nothing more than a J-man wasting his employer's money because he doesn't care. *Unfortunately the apprentice is learning this same mentality.
> *
> Their mentality will change when they get to a level in which they actually have to produce in order to keep their jobs.




I think the journeymans point was to teach the kid the correct way, even though it did waste time and material. Could the original conduit have remained in place, absolutely, and I would have left it. The kid learned to do it right the first time, once he was taught how, now he is good to go for the life of his IBEW career if those bends come up again.

Apprentice mistakes are figured into every job, union or non union. 

Would non union have taken the time to show the kid or say it looks good and not show him a better way?

Everyone has to produce to keep their jobs, union and non union are the same, and have the same slackers that stay employed because they know someone.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> I think the journeymans point was to teach the kid the correct way,


 The kid already did it the correct way the first time. 



> Apprentice mistakes are figured into every job, union or non union.


 There was no apprentice mistake.



> Everyone has to produce to keep their jobs, union and non union are the same


 Keep telling yourself that :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> This is a three year project that is just starting. Work is just getting going...lots of time. I had just transferred contractors and this was some of my first runs for my new foreman. Maybe it was a test, challenge, or learning opportunity, not sure.
> 
> .




Maybe they were just trying to keep you busy and give you practice for bigger and better things.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The kid already did it the correct way the first time.
> 
> There was no apprentice mistake.
> 
> * Keep telling yourself that * :laughing::laughing::laughing:


...you should at least quote the entire sentence , not the part that suits you .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> ...you should at least quote the entire sentence , not the part that suits you .


Ok:



> union and non union are the same, and have the same slackers that stay employed because they know someone.


Keep telling yourself that :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

looks better.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

360max said:


> I think the journeymans point was to teach the kid the correct way, even though it did waste time and material. Could the original conduit have remained in place, absolutely, and I would have left it.
> 
> Would non union have taken the time to show the kid or say it looks good and not show him a better way?
> 
> .


If time allowed, I would have allowed him to redo it. If its show pipe then it should look good, IMHO. 
You need to learn in out of the way locations so you can shine when needed. 
Union or non-Union it doesn't matter to me, Quality and workmanship is something that helps customers want to spend more when they are seeking a bid. You get what you pay for when you go cheap.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Because it's part of the basic union mentality. You never mentioned that you were union in this thread, I knew it only because this type of thing doesn't happen often in the non-union world.
> 
> I've been there, right where you are now, redoing perfectly good work because my J-man didn't like something tiny. I've also been in the J-man's shoes making an apprentice do something over as well as the foreman's shoes making the J-man do something over.
> 
> I think back to it now and see how much of a waste it is on the contractor. But at the time we didn't care because we were paid hourly and the more work we did over, the further away we were to layoffs.


It's not a waste if you do it right the first time. We compete against mostly other union shops. Price does not always get the job. Sometimes craftsmanship and competence give you the edge. I've got jobs where I wasn't low bidder, but our work is better


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

360max said:


> [/U]
> Apprentice mistakes are figured into every job, union or non union.


No they're not


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> It's not a waste if you do it right the first time. We compete against mostly other union shops. Price does not always get the job. Sometimes craftsmanship and competence give you the edge. I've got jobs where I wasn't low bidder, but our work is better


It was done right the first time.

Doing it over was a waste of money. It provided no value to the job.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Ok:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep telling yourself that :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


I could care less whom you know


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> I could care less whom you know


Good, cause I wasn't talking to you nor did I mention knowing anyone :blink:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

HackWork said:


> It was done right the first time.
> 
> Doing it over was a waste of money. It provided no value to the job.


It helps to get the next job


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> It helps to get the next job


No, it does not.

No one would notice the difference in those two installations. Neither way is "right".

Give it up already.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

HackWork said:


> No, it does not.
> 
> No one would notice the difference in those two installations.
> 
> Give it up already.


They would on the jobs I run.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sparky970 said:


> They would on the jobs I run.


My ass :thumbsup:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

HackWork said:


> My ass :thumbsup:


I'm not doing TI work. I working strictly industrial for the same customers every day. They expect eye candy. They want to see concentric bends, matching couplings, and work that will look good in 20 years. Our conduit isn't behind walls or in ceilings.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> First used Pythagoreans theorem to find distance of the rolling offset. Then used the cosecant of the angles To find the multiplier which would match the distance between the bends
> 
> If you need more help sign up at your local IBEW


That's all well and good , but I , like a lot of people here saw nothing wrong with your first bends . One thing that would make all of this look better , would have been to cut those risers down and started the offsets closer to the floor . You would have had more straight pipe going before your strut , as opposed to the way it was . The new bends are nice , but aside from pleasing the foreman , served no purpose .


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> I'm not doing TI work. I working strictly industrial for the same customers every day. They expect eye candy. They want to see concentric bends, matching couplings, and work that will look good in 20 years. Our conduit isn't behind walls or in ceilings.


theres truth to this. I was on two large manufacturing crews where the director of operations specifically said he wanted all exposed mechanical work to be visually impressive. some of these multi million dollar businesses have this absurd notion that every aspect of their process should reflect the end product, right down to operating systems. is that crazy or what.

that being said I don't think these 4 little offsets are worth enough trouble to talk about anymore. they don't look good, they don't look bad, they're just there, they weren't there Monday. whoop de doo, 3/4 emt is nothing to get all excited about


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> theres truth to this. I was on two large manufacturing crews where the director of operations specifically said he wanted all exposed mechanical work to be visually impressive. some of these multi million dollar businesses have this absurd notion that every aspect of their process should reflect the end product, right down to operating systems. is that crazy or what.
> 
> that being said I don't think these 4 little offsets are worth enough trouble to talk about anymore. they don't look good, they don't look bad, they're just there, they weren't there Monday. whoop de doo, 3/4 emt is nothing to get all excited about



Funny story, we have a customer in the hi-tech industry that won't allow old, dirty, or beat up tools. They want new and want them to look new. They pay for if, so it's not an issue. They wouldn't sell their customers something that looks dirty or crappy and they want same, whether it's tools or how it's installed. You can do what you want when you have billions to spend


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## Sparkythao (Mar 26, 2013)

Looks good, but if I were to do it, I would cut the stubs low as I can and have my offsets low as I can and start with 45 degrees for the furthest pipe from the wall. Just my two cents.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> No they're not


Yes it is, otherwise every time they hire/teach an apprentice they will lose money.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

360max said:


> Yes it is, otherwise every time they hire/teach an apprentice they will lose money.



I have never added money to my bids for an apprentice


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> Funny story, we have a customer in the hi-tech industry that won't allow old, dirty, or beat up tools. They want new and want them to look new. They pay for if, so it's not an issue. They wouldn't sell their customers something that looks dirty or crappy and they want same, whether it's tools or how it's installed. You can do what you want when you have billions to spend


I find something oddly respectable about old beat up tools.

Not rusty and not taken care of, just clearly worn. I feel like it reflects efficiency and a level of utilitarianism. No more money need be spent because it does the job well enough and will be kept around until lost or broken.

On the other hand, I asked to borrow a guys kleins to cut some string, went to cut it and the pull string was still together, looked at the kleins and there was a 1/4'' long gap in 'em. 

I told him it looked like he blew them up about 3 times, he said he blew them up twice.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> some of these multi million dollar businesses have this absurd notion that every aspect of their process should reflect the end product, right down to operating systems. is that crazy or what.


A lot of them need to reexamine the priorities. We have a few of those and they are often the ones that are having us do process upgrades cause they got products tossed by customers cause stuff failed QC :laughing: Spent too much time worrying about BS.


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## Kramsof (Dec 10, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Here is the new run with all the bends lined up. The pipes are bent at 30, 25, 20, 15. Jman is happy. Looks about the same to me.


I think the 2nd way looks way better but I would rather see the offset start right at the floor instead.

Either way would be acceptable to me if you took it upon yourself to plan it out but if I was going to line you out on the task I would have specified how I wanted it done in the first place.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

Jlarson said:


> A lot of them need to reexamine the priorities. We have a few of those and they are often the ones that are having us do process upgrades cause they got products tossed by customers cause stuff failed QC :laughing: Spent too much time worrying about BS.


Their priorities are to make those millions. If the executives at these major companies are willing to pay a premium for fancy-looking installations instead of something that looks improvised and "cheap" then more power too them, lol. 

In financial terms, if the NPV of the cost difference between a fancy and marginal installation is less than the expecting increase NPV in profits resulting from said fancy installation compared to a marginal one then it makes economic sense to pay a little more. Exactly what those numbers are and how they come up with them are probably closely guarded financial information.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> I have never added money to my bids for an apprentice


 Do you use the apprentice rate when estimating material handling or the journeyman rate? Yet, on most sites, the apprentice does the bulk of material handling. Who would you expect to work faster on the same task, an apprentice or a seasoned jw? Your telling me you use an apprenticeship rate in you bid?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

360max said:


> Do you use the apprentice rate when estimating material handling or the journeyman rate? Yet, on most sites, the apprentice does the bulk of material handling. Who would you expect to work faster on the same task, an apprentice or a seasoned jw? Your telling me you use an apprenticeship rate in you bid?


We use material handlers and yes, when I'm trying to be aggressive to get a job I'll use a composite rate, JW's & apprentices. We have a job right now where I did exactly that.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

....


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I think the first pic would have worked but the second looks better.

Also it was a good opportunity to teach the apprentice, not a time waster, which in my opinion, is very important for the future.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Am I the only one that thinks it looks terrible in the first pic? Maybe its just because I've fanned out rolling conduits a few times and knew how much better it would look. If I was the jman and there was no deadline that had to be met "like yesterday," I would have had him redo it also. Although, I would have had him do it right the first time


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> Funny story, we have a customer in the hi-tech industry that won't allow old, dirty, or beat up tools. They want new and want them to look new. They pay for if, so it's not an issue. They wouldn't sell their customers something that looks dirty or crappy and they want same, whether it's tools or how it's installed. You can do what you want when you have billions to spend


I think I'm working for the very customer you are referring to. Out in Hillsboro?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

jimmy21 said:


> I think I'm working for the very customer you are referring to. Out in Hillsboro?


That's the place. I'll assume you work for OEG or REI. We're doing heat trace and a strut racking system.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> That's the place. I'll assume you work for OEG or REI. We're doing heat trace and a strut racking system.


I was with rei last year when everyone was. This year I've been with QPS doing motor controls. Awesome shop to work for. I'm hoping to stick with them on through mod 2 but who knows. We are down to about 20 people on the project I am on and we have very little for work right now, until October/November but somehow it seems like I still have overtime every week.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it looks terrible in the first pic? Maybe its just because I've fanned out rolling conduits a few times and knew how much better it would look. If I was the jman and there was no deadline that had to be met "like yesterday," I would have had him redo it also. Although, I would have had him do it right the first time


Yes you are the only one that thinks it looks terrible. I doubt you could have done that and the jman who told me to do it that way stood there for 10min couldn't figure it out and left. Told me to figure it out.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

What chaps my ass is now they are above ceiling the guy working with is just slapping them up there. Supporting every 30 feet and no measurement. Just sliding on top of other pipes.

True hackery in progress.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> Yes you are the only one that thinks it looks terrible. I doubt you could have done that and the jman who told me to do it that way stood there for 10min couldn't figure it out and left. Told me to figure it out.


You are the greatest apprentice ever.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> You are the greatest apprentice ever.


Point taken


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

I used to be the smartest guy on the jobsite when I was a first year apprentice, I used to know more than my journeyman, my foreman, my project manager, the general contractor, and even the customers. The only problem is every year that went by I either got dumber or I realized I wasn't as smart as I thought. By the time I turned out I never thought I was the smartest guy on the jobsite anymore  just hoped to be less-dumb than the next guy...


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Locknutz said:


> I doubt you could have done that and the jman who told me to do it that way stood there for 10min couldn't figure it out and left. Told me to figure it out.


A²+B²=C²

"A" is going to remain constant. Its the distance between bends, not measured by the path the conduit will take but the vertical distance. "B" is the amount of offset each pipe needs. "C" is what you are solving for, distance between bends.

to find your angle, take the inverse sin of your offset size divided by your distance between bends

:whistling2:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

uconduit said:


> I used to be the smartest guy on the jobsite when I was a first year apprentice, I used to know more than my journeyman, my foreman, my project manager, the general contractor, and even the customers. The only problem is every year that went by I either got dumber or I realized I wasn't as smart as I thought. By the time I turned out I never thought I was the smartest guy on the jobsite anymore  just hoped to be less-dumb than the next guy...




I sometimes joke around and say (on a jobsite with thousands of electricians) "im not such an arrogant douche that i think im the best electrician on this whole jobsite, but there is no way im not at least in the top 3." Only jokingly though


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> We use material handlers and yes, when I'm trying to be aggressive to get a job I'll use a composite rate, JW's & apprentices. We have a job right now where I did exactly that.


most places don't do that because that is the owners pocket money, right next to the copper money.


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