# Copper vs Aluminum for feeders



## HackWork

Silver.


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## HackWork

Since price is an important part of it, and silver and copper are so expensive, aluminum is the best option.

Copper doesn't give the customer any benefit like some people think (based off the old stigma). I put aluminum service conductors in my own houses, and of my family's homes, and not for second do I think it's any worse than copper.


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## MechanicalDVR

I'm 100% old school and when cost isn't a factor I'd rather use copper.


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## telsa

XHHW-2 aluminum bends so much easier than THWN-2 copper ... but one is sometimes driven by an undersized feeder -- typically a 2" puppy -- which then forces me to copper. (200A)

Other than such situations, it's aluminum every time.

Now if the Contract specifies copper -- that's in my bid. The customer pays for it.


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## circuitman1

copper 100% don't like aluminum, never have never will.it has it's place , but don't belive in it for services, just my 2 cents.


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## Southeast Power

I will use Aluminum every time I can. I despise copper as feeders It has beaten the crap out of me.
The only good thing about copper is pulling it out for scrap and pulling in aluminum.


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## HackWork

Southeast Power said:


> I will use Aluminum every time I can. I despise copper as feeders It has beaten the crap out of me.
> The only good thing about copper is pulling it out for scrap and pulling in aluminum.


Wow, we actually agree.

One thing that people seem to mistake is that copper is better because it's a better conductor. Copper may be a better conductor, but we compensate for that by upsizing the aluminum conductor, so the end result is the same.


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## frenchelectrican

I go either copper or alum but normally I rather use the Alum conductors due it easier to pull and bend.

Ya if you sized properly it fare pretty good as copper counterpart is .,,

especially on long runs the alum useally win hands down unless the customer speced copper then I will follow the specs.,,


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## telsa

In the larger sizes, copper beats up the troops.

I've lost track of how many fellas got sick on feeder-pull days.


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## B-Nabs

I agree: I love pulling copper OUT. I prefer pulling aluminum IN.

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## matt1124

Copper. Why stock two of the same thing? #4 copper works for your basic service or out to a barn in conduit.


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## HackWork

matt1124 said:


> Copper. Why stock two of the same thing? #4 copper works for your basic service or out to a barn in conduit.


#2 aluminum does the same exact thing at a quarter of the price. I keep that on the truck and use it for feeders, service entrance conductors, and for the GEC on service upgrades.


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## Chris1971

I don’t lose any sleep over using aluminum.


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## matt1124

HackWork said:


> #2 aluminum does the same exact thing at a quarter of the price. I keep that on the truck and use it for feeders, service entrance conductors, and for the GEC on service upgrades.


I guess so... just prefer copper underground

#2 does lay better in milbank lugs, I'll give it that.


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## HackWork

matt1124 said:


> I guess so... just prefer copper underground
> 
> #2 does lay better in milbank lugs, I'll give it that.


Towards the end of my union career doing big commercial work we started using AL for underground feeders all the time. It was actually always THHN and not XHHW for some reason.


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## Drsparky14

I prefer copper anywhere cost doesn't prohibit it. 


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## Electrical-EE

Aluminium is best since it is light, I would prefer Al. Although you mentioned price, not a major factor. I always prefer to save money as far as possible.


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## B-Nabs

Even on jobs that spec copper feeders, one of the first questions we ask during tender is if aluminum is acceptable. Often the copper spec is just boilerplate, and if the engineer tells us aluminum is ok, that's a nice edge on a competitive bid. 

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## Sblk55

I've wondered for a while when this debate was going to get started. I have seen the posts about how much some of you like AL, but for me if you were going to give me the AL I would have to thank you very much and go buy the CU to do my house.


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## HackWork

Sblk55 said:


> I've wondered for a while when this debate was going to get started. I have seen the posts about how much some of you like AL, but for me if you were going to give me the AL I would have to thank you very much and go buy the CU to do my house.


You do it for the feelz.


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## matt1124

HackWork said:


> You do it for the feelz.


I just remember that dissolved MHF at that ratty trailer all those years ago...


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## RePhase277

Sblk55 said:


> I've wondered for a while when this debate was going to get started. I have seen the posts about how much some of you like AL, but for me if you were going to give me the AL I would have to thank you very much and go buy the CU to do my house.


People say this but they never say WHY.... why is it important to you?


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## MTW

We use aluminum 95% of the time. AL never had a stigma in my area which explains why it's so popular and widely accepted here. I suspect the acceptance might have had something to do with Kaiser Aluminum having a large manufacturing plant here for decades which made SEU, SER and XHHW individual conductors. People tend not to bite the hand that feeds them.


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## emtnut

The whole electrical distribution system is wired in Aluminum ... should I be worried ??? :blink::001_huh:


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## matt1124

I like to terminate my copper wire to the aluminum buss in my breaker panel and that's just the way it's going to be.


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## Dutch Designer

Aluminum vs. Copper. I have been specifying feeders for 38 years. Aluminum saves the customer $$ which is what they go for everytime and forget about quality or performance. It is all about the money savings under valued engineering. In the consulting world we prefer copper for obvious reasons and specify it. Then Mr. Low bidder comes along and says I priced aluminum feeders so I could get the job. Bottom line both are acceptable installations. Copper is tables 1 and 2 of the code and aluminum is tables 3 and 4. When applying aluminum use the correct tables. I once had a contractor that substituted the same size copper conductors for aluminum and we ended up with 8% voltage drop at the distribution panel. Not good and does not meet code. Max. 5% on eq't. and 3& on lighting.
The rules for aluminum change once you get top medium and high voltage, less resistance in the cable and voltage drop is not prevalent. Most utilities use aluminum conductors at 4160, 7200, 12,800, 13,800, 14,200, 27,600, 44,000, 115,000, 230,000 volts.


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## Majewski

Lol old thread.

simple, who’s payin?


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## hornetd

Dutch Designer said:


> I once had a contractor that substituted the same size copper conductors for aluminum and we ended up with 8% voltage drop at the distribution panel. Not good and does not meet code.


I'll ask. Did you actually mean that the contractor substituted the same size ALUMINUM for copper? I'll buy that 8% voltage drop is not good but from what code requirement do you get that it does not meet code? Unless you are talking about some kind of amendment there is no requirement in the National Electric Code which requires a maximum voltage drop. Were the conductors undersized for the calculated load? 

Tom Horne


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## Viggmundir

hornetd said:


> I'll ask. Did you actually mean that the contractor substituted the same size ALUMINUM for copper? I'll buy that 8% voltage drop is not good but from what code requirement do you get that it does not meet code? Unless you are talking about some kind of amendment there is no requirement in the National Electric Code which requires a maximum voltage drop. Were the conductors undersized for the calculated load?
> Tom Horne


Canadian Electrical Code:
8-102 Voltage drop (see Appendices B and D)
1) The voltage drop in an installation shall be based on the connected load of the feeder or branch
circuit if known; otherwise it shall be based on 80% of the rating of the overload or overcurrent
device protecting the branch circuit or feeder, and not exceed
a) 3% in a feeder or branch circuit; and
b) 5% from the supply side of the consumer’s service (or equivalent) to the point of utilization.


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## Almost Retired

Viggmundir said:


> Canadian Electrical Code:
> 8-102 Voltage drop (see Appendices B and D)
> 1) The voltage drop in an installation shall be based on the connected load of the feeder or branch
> circuit if known; otherwise it shall be based on 80% of the rating of the overload or overcurrent
> device protecting the branch circuit or feeder, and not exceed
> a) 3% in a feeder or branch circuit; and
> b) 5% from the supply side of the consumer’s service (or equivalent) to the point of utilization.


unless im mistaken (and i may be) the nec says the same thing. total of 5% drop at the load


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## Majewski

Viggmundir said:


> Canadian Electrical Code:
> 8-102 Voltage drop (see Appendices B and D)
> 1) The voltage drop in an installation shall be based on the connected load of the feeder or branch
> circuit if known; otherwise it shall be based on 80% of the rating of the overload or overcurrent
> device protecting the branch circuit or feeder, and not exceed
> a) 3% in a feeder or branch circuit; and
> b) 5% from the supply side of the consumer’s service (or equivalent) to the point of utilization.


We dont speak canadian in the nec tho so we good


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## Viggmundir

Majewski said:


> We dont speak canadian in the nec tho so we good


I'm sorry you guys are so close minded. 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## Majewski

Viggmundir said:


> I'm sorry you guys are so close minded. 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


Yeah we need help, major help. Mushrooms helps.


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## splatz

Almost Retired said:


> unless im mistaken (and i may be) the nec says the same thing. total of 5% drop at the load


Recommended but not required.


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## hornetd

I love learning about the Canadian Electric Code and Canadian practices. I haven't had a lot of time to study them but everything I found out about them I liked. Canada was the first place I read about that required a dead front over the supply terminals of a Service Disconnecting Means at least in some cases. Up until quite recently you couldn't even obtain such equipment in the United States because contractors would not pay for the small additional cost of that one safeguard.

I also like the fact that most of their electrical utilities are publicly owned and only need to cover costs of delivery. When people here in the US say "Yeah but they cost more." I reply that I believe that is because they actually maintain their outside plant to a reasonable state of reliability and that in spite of an overall harsher climate than the United States they have a markedly lower number of outages in proportion to their population than the US does.

Unfortunately we have to play with the hand we were dealt. Stock; i.e. investor owned; electrical utility companies will always try to increase profit at the expense of all other concerns. That the management of all investor owned businesses must maximize return on investment is considered Black Letter Law in the United States. Black Letter Law is a term of art used in the legal profession to describe principals that are so well settled that they do not need to be argued in any individual case. They are considered part of the shared understanding of the Body Politic. Andrew Carnegie, one of the quintessential capitalist of the 20th century, said "If you take care of cost profit takes care of itself." That idea has become so ingrained in American management culture that to question it is to invite scorn and even ridicule. That is why American management is always trying to cut cost without regard to any of the consequences. Anyone who argues that the electrical utilities should be operated with a concern for public necessity is necessarily a Socialist now that the use of Communist as the universal derogative has gone out of vogue. 

Tom Horne


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