# Coffee Shop Service Demand Calculation



## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I've only got access to a 2012 OESC and I haven't done these calculations in a long long time, but it looks right to me. 

I'm pretty sure you also need to consider that most OCDs are rated for 80% Continuous, so you need to derate another 80%, since all your loads would be considered continuous. That would bring you up to 86A.

Waiting for someone with a bit more confidence to verify.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Welcome aboard OTW! Enjoy the ride here.

Your calcs look good but as AK said don't forget to compensate for the 80%.

As for the owner disagreeing tell him you won't make coffee as long as he let's you handle the electrical work. I've never seen a coffee kiosk with less than a 100amp panel.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If he doesn't have the money to put in a 100 amp service at $1500 he probably doesn't have enough to have you wire the rest.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Add in the unknowns (fridges etc) and the question should be 100A or 200A.
Then there's the other typical loads like toasters, kettles, microwave, and window A/C. 
P&L


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Add in the unknowns (fridges etc) and the question should be 100A or 200A.
> Then there's the other typical loads like toasters, kettles, microwave, and window A/C.
> P&L


All depends on the size of the place. Done several food kiosks over the years and 100amps covered them. Places like Auntie Annie's or Sabarro with large ovens are different.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome. It's good to be a part of this community it is at the top of my bookmarks right after google lol. 

I have told the owner the ball is in his court and contact me when you have authorization from both the utilities and ESA and I will proceed with the service.

Thanks again.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

First: Welcome to the forum.

Second:


> The owner disagrees and does not want to upgrade the existing service of 60A.


Don't let the customer tell you how to do your job. This will lead to more trouble than it's worth.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

offthewall said:


> Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome. It's good to be a part of this community it is at the top of my bookmarks right after google lol.
> 
> I have told the owner the ball is in his court and contact me when you have authorization from both the utilities and ESA and I will proceed with the service.
> 
> Thanks again.


That's interesting. I sometimes let the customer deal with hydro but 
didn't think that'd work with the ESA. Wouldn't it complicate things 
later to hear the ESA's assessment filtered through the customer? 
And when it comes time to do the work, it can't be done under a 
customers permit (aka notification), so another would have to be 
taken out and paid for. 
P&L


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> That's interesting. I sometimes let the customer deal with hydro but
> didn't think that'd work with the ESA. Wouldn't it complicate things
> later to hear the ESA's assessment filtered through the customer?
> And when it comes time to do the work, it can't be done under a
> ...


When the customer wants to run the job is when I walk and let him have it.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Welcome!

Ask the owner if he thinks the business will prosper, then put in a 200


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

I have told the owner to get ESA consultation to confirm the 100A service upgrade will be required to proceed. If he wants me to do the electrical work I can then pull the permit. The fee for a electrical consultation from ESA is around $170.00 that he should be responsible under the circumstances.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

offthewall said:


> I have told the owner to get ESA consultation to confirm the 100A service upgrade will be required to proceed. If he wants me to do the electrical work I can then pull the permit. The fee for a electrical consultation from ESA is around $170.00 that he should be responsible under the circumstances.


As an owner I would not hire you. It is not his job to do yours. Tell him it is $250 to get started but in the end it is your job to worry about the permit process.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

If you knew how much effort I put in to help both the tenant and the owner to get this job started I bet you would change your mind. If the owner doubts my findings what else should I do?


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

I look at it as it would be confirmation for him that I am not trying to scam him, $170 for peace of mind.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

The permit is another matter that I would care of for him.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

you lost the job already.

move on.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Ok but I really did try. Thanks for all the input I appreciate it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

"Sir after doing a complete load calculation on all the equipment you are telling me you are planning on I've determined you need a minimum of a 100 amp service. Now I would recommend going a little larger to accommodate future additional equipment"

End of story.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> "Sir after doing a complete load calculation on all the equipment you are telling me you are planning on I've determined you need a minimum of a 100 amp service. Now I would recommend going a little larger to accommodate future additional equipment"
> 
> End of story.


That sum up pretty good there.,,

to OP .,, just tell that customer that if the 60 amp main breaker or fuse go out that will going affect his bussines pretty hard espcally with downtime right in middle of busy hour.

I would just tell him 100 amp is barebone size for basic set up.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Does this fella instruct his dentist as to whether his tooth needs a filing ?

Stop debating civilians and GCs about our craft and art.

Don't even let such matters come up for debate.

If debate starts, terminate same immediately. 

Your task is done.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

offthewall said:


> If you knew how much effort I put in to help both the tenant and the owner to get this job started I bet you would change your mind. If the owner doubts my findings what else should I do?


I see your point. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Signal1 said:


> First: Welcome to the forum.
> 
> Second:
> 
> ...


I have to respectfully disagree. His job is to do what the owner wants. He should be on the owner's side, he should be the owner's advocate. He is supposed to be providing excellent customer service to the owner. If the owner does not want to upgrade the 60A service, then that is his decision. Any issue that arises from that is on the owner and can be corrected later. Just my opinion.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. His job is to do what the owner wants. He should be on the owner's side, he should be the owner's advocate.


That's a good point but sometimes excellent service involves saving them from their own cheap ass. In this case I think it tips that way. 



offthewall said:


> The owner disagrees and does not want to upgrade the existing service of 60A.


I wouldn't raise his objection to "disagreeing." A barista doesn't really have a basis to form an opinion. Recognize it for what it is, he's trying to talk his way out of spending money. 

I don't think you're even close with 60A. I did a small coffee truck last year with a 60A RV type hookup and it was barely enough for the truck. The grinder was a pretty big motor and you don't have that in there yet. During busy times, everything will be running at once. Food service uses a lot of hot water and commercial dishwashers are monsters which I also don't see in there. Never mind the unexpected, if the seating area is cold and they light up a space heater, or etc. etc. etc. 

One thing to remember people have a TERRIBLE memory when you tell them later you told them so. Few say "boy I should have listened to you" most say "why didn't you tell me?" 

I have a feeling you're learning how to spot a bad prospect, unfortunately it's part of the process, hopefully over time you'll spot them faster before you've invested too much. I'd see it through as a learning experience, although I don't think there's much chance of a good outcome. 

DON'T assume the bottom position with your prospect. It's your job to SELL them what they need, that's a square deal. TELL him what he needs, explain why, show him how much more he'll spend when he does the necessary work later, point out that nuisance trips could be really bad for business.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. His job is to do what the owner wants. He should be on the owner's side, he should be the owner's advocate. He is supposed to be providing excellent customer service to the owner. If the owner does not want to upgrade the 60A service, then that is his decision. Any issue that arises from that is on the owner and can be corrected later. Just my opinion.


If the load is 70 amps and they want a 60 amp panel you aren't doing the customer any great service in going that way.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If the load is 70 amps and they want a 60 amp panel you aren't doing the customer any great service in going that way.


I have to disagree again. It's the EC's job to make the customer aware of the situation and possible issues. It's then the customer's decision. 

That building owner has probably had 8 other businesses come and go and the existing 60A service was always adequate. If it can't handle it, the service can be upgraded after.

I can't see where arguing with the customers comes into play. The OP is going to lose this job to another EC who is willing to do what the customer wants.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have to disagree again. It's the EC's job to make the customer aware of the situation and possible issues. It's then the customer's decision.
> 
> That building owner has probably had 8 other businesses come and go and the existing 60A service was always adequate. If it can't handle it, the service can be upgraded after.
> 
> I can't see where arguing with the customers comes into play. The OP is going to lose this job to another EC who is willing to do what the customer wants.


If you as an EC hook up all the equipment listed and there is any kind of fire or other problem that ends up in court, guess who that owner is going to back up?

Just himself. 

There is no good reason to put yourself in a bad legal position.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If you as an EC hook up all the equipment listed and there is any kind of fire or other problem that ends up in court, guess who that owner is going to back up?
> 
> Just himself.
> 
> There is no good reason to put yourself in a bad legal position.


I think you are being a bit extreme here. I think it's safe to say that all of us have done work and added loads in houses and businesses in which we never touched the service. If the service can't handle it, the main will trip. If the main doesn't trip, the panel is at fault. The OP could put a note in the estimate/invoice saying that he recommended a service upgrade and the owner declined.

I connected a 40A car charger yesterday to a 100A service. That service powers the whole 2,400sqft house including central AC. If the service can't handle the 40A car charger, it's on them. I recommended service upgrade, they thought it would be fine with the current service. I did the job as they asked and walked away with my money. I have no fear of liability in these situations. Just my opinion.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I think you are being a bit extreme here. I think it's safe to say that all of us have done work and added loads in houses and businesses in which we never touched the service. If the service can't handle it, the main will trip. If the main doesn't trip, the panel is at fault. The OP could put a note in the estimate/invoice saying that he recommended a service upgrade and the owner declined.
> 
> I connected a 40A car charger yesterday to a 100A service. That service powers the whole 2,400sqft house including central AC. If the service can't handle the 40A car charger, it's on them. I recommended service upgrade, they thought it would be fine with the current service. I did the job as they asked and walked away with my money. I have no fear of liability in these situations. Just my opinion.


I understand your point and adding one breaker to an existing panel is far more passable than adding a dozen to a panel you know is small and walking away. 

I've had to give video depositions for more than a couple of employers that were being sued for cases with far less merit.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I understand your point and adding one breaker to an existing panel is far more passable than adding a dozen to a panel you know is small and walking away.
> 
> I've had to give video depositions for more than a couple of employers that were being sued for cases with far less merit.


Sued? Only in the America


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I think you are being a bit extreme here. I think it's safe to say that all of us have done work and added loads in houses and businesses in which we never touched the service. If the service can't handle it, the main will trip. If the main doesn't trip, the panel is at fault. The OP could put a note in the estimate/invoice saying that he recommended a service upgrade and the owner declined.
> 
> I connected a 40A car charger yesterday to a 100A service. That service powers the whole 2,400sqft house including central AC. If the service can't handle the 40A car charger, it's on them. I recommended service upgrade, they thought it would be fine with the current service. I did the job as they asked and walked away with my money. I have no fear of liability in these situations. Just my opinion.


Car chargers are usually rigged to be non-coincidental loads -- rather like late hours hot water heating circuits.

This situation, an '_*electric restaurant*_,' is wholly unlike that.

You'll discover that ever dang circuit in the joint is firing off at the same time -- the rush hour.

That's the ESSENTIAL point that the OP ought to have spelled out from the first.

In so many words: when business is flying -- his electric load will reach an extreme -- and without a heavy-up -- will pop the Main C/B every morning -- until he's driven all of his customers away.

More than he realizes it_*, he's selling electric power*_... with every hot cup.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The building is probably been there for 30 years without issue.

If he has such a problem with the main breaker tripping, he could upgrade the service. 

No, the sky is not falling.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Either do the job or refuse to. If you do it, make sure he signs on a consent to work form that details your recommendations and notes his refusal. Get paid to do the job. When the air conditioning kicks on in the spring and blacks the whole place out, get paid again.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

HackWork said:


> The building is probably been there for 30 years without issue.
> 
> If he has such a problem with the main breaker tripping, he could upgrade the service.
> 
> No, the sky is not falling.


Can Trump only afford the one red tie?
Trump is lucky he hasn't bought Canada yet...
He could for $15 Trillion. Then all Canadians could retire and that would open all the jobs up so unemployment in all of North America would be 0% :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> Can Trump only afford the one red tie?
> Trump is lucky he hasn't bought Canada yet...
> He could for $15 Trillion. Then all Canadians could retire and that would open all the jobs up so unemployment in all of North America would be 0% :thumbup:


What? :blink:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Byte said:


> Can Trump only afford the one red tie?
> Trump is lucky he hasn't bought Canada yet...
> He could for $15 Trillion. Then all Canadians could retire and that would open all the jobs up so unemployment...


Yeah, guess we really dodged a bullet there. We've got all the commies we can stand, thanks. 

Country's taken:


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Houston I think we have a problem.

The image shows the 200A supply service with 8 connected consumer side metered 60A services and a metered hot water heater. The owner was told by the utilities he has to bring the supply side up to code before any addition load can be added. I think this is why he does not to upgrade the existing 60A coffee shop service to 100A which is on the forth right black disconnect and meter.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=20161208_145422.jpg[/IMG]


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Please tell me how properly insert images.
Thanks


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

We can't see that image without logging in so it won't show up here. 

Your customer's motives are now out in the open, he clearly doesn't want to have to upgrade the entire service. So the options are to either do what he wants and spell out that he refused to upgrade the service in the signed estimate and invoice, or walk away.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Can I insert images off my hard drive?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

offthewall said:


> Please tell me how properly insert images.
> Thanks


Someone else was unable to post pics just last week. They were also 
a new member. Suspect there's some number of posts required 
before all the features are turned on. You may want to contact 
Cricket or one of the other mods for clarification. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

offthewall said:


> Can I insert images off my hard drive?


You are too new to use the forums attachment feature.

Go here: www.tinypic.com and upload your picture, then copy and paste it back here.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

At some point someone has to come to the realization that this coffee shop isn't going to open in the space, and will have to find more appropriate digs. The only other alternative is to switch some appliances like the coffee pot and ovens/ broilers to gas, such that a 60a service would be adequate. 

Not to be a spoil sport, but a business owner intending to open a business that's all electric and obviously completely unaware that requirement #1 is an adequate electrical service, makes me wonder what else this doofus is blissfully unaware of.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Byte said:


> Can Trump only afford the one red tie?
> Trump is lucky he hasn't bought Canada yet...
> He could for $15 Trillion. Then all Canadians could retire and that would open all the jobs up so unemployment in all of North America would be 0% :thumbup:


That is one _insane_ thread-jack.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Ok thanks HackWork


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Holy sh!t, that is never going to come anywhere near what your coffee shop guy needs. 60A? WTF? Maybe if it was a 60A 600v service.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

According to the utilities company at the very least the splitter will require a fused disconnect switch rated for the total calculated load of the 8 consumer side services and the hot water tank to protect the utilities incoming line. I also think there are at least 1 or 2 electrical code violations that ESA may have a say in.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

"Holy ****" were the exact words I used when I saw this yesterday lol.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> Car chargers are usually rigged to be non-coincidental loads -- rather like late hours hot water heating circuits.
> 
> This situation, an '_*electric restaurant*_,' is wholly unlike that.
> 
> ...


I think anyone that has ever wired one and went back for service comes to see how used and abused the electrical system is in a busy place.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> At some point someone has to come to the realization that this coffee shop isn't going to open in the space, and will have to find more appropriate digs. The only other alternative is to switch some appliances like the coffee pot and ovens/ broilers to gas, such that a 60a service would be adequate.
> 
> Exactly my thoughts, I suggested to the tenant to consider this. I feel bad for her because she has already purchased the espresso, coffee brewer and convection oven and is excited to open her business she has already signed the lease too. I hate to be the bearer of bad news for her on Monday.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> That is one _insane_ thread-jack.


Nature of this beast.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

offthewall said:


> Ok thanks HackWork


Holy sh!t is right. That pile of crap looks like it needed to be redone in 1960 when it was started. 

Up sell the hell out of that fiasco.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

There isn't a gas line available in the whole building so that would require another upgrade oh my.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

offthewall said:


> There isn't a gas line available in the whole building so that would require another upgrade oh my.


If another fuel source was gonna happen it would have been mentioned already.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

The interesting thing I also noticed the two newer services in 2007 have a passed ESA sticker on the switch. Rule 6-102 and 6-104 OESC 2015 disallow this.


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## offthewall (Nov 22, 2015)

Actually on the meter base you can see it in the image.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

offthewall said:


> Ok thanks HackWork




I think that service is worst than what I see in my islander.,, ( philippines )

That denfenity need a upgrading on main service.


I know someone mention about gas .,, if no natual gas service aviable what about propane gas ??


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

offthewall said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> > At some point someone has to come to the realization that this coffee shop isn't going to open in the space, and will have to find more appropriate digs. The only other alternative is to switch some appliances like the coffee pot and ovens/ broilers to gas, such that a 60a service would be adequate.
> ...


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