# The problem with union construction



## Boomer (Oct 19, 2011)

If they didn't have that rule, there would be no need for a book two. So travelers would have equal opportunity to work in your local w/out ever planning to live or contribute to your community. Its a good rule :thumbsup:


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## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I love the VDV national


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> If you ever want to move you aren't allowed to switch locals. Especially today when there is no work. From what I know, the only way to switch locals is to sign book 2, hope you eventually get hired, and work 2000 hours.


I have traveled most of the USA for 25 years and always signed book 2! Some how it seems I still was able to afford life. (imagine that)


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I swapped locals a few years ago, my new local voted me in before I ever worked an hour here.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's only a problem, because the construction industry is in the ****ter.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Boomer said:


> If they didn't have that rule, there would be no need for a book two. *So travelers would have equal opportunity *to work in your local w/out ever planning to live or contribute to your community. Its a good rule :thumbsup:



Almost seems like something American, you know freedom of association, freedom to move. Durn those stupid freedoms.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Boomer said:


> If they didn't have that rule, there would be no need for a book two. So travelers would have equal opportunity to work in your local w/out ever planning to live or contribute to your community. Its a good rule :thumbsup:


Entitled


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The problem with union construction is they can never get the numbers right in the beginning of the job..

Having cost overruns of 100 - 200 - 300% on public works jobs are the norm..

The numbers are always low balled to get the project approved and then the "unexpected problems" start showing up..

It is on the tax payers dime so nobody really cares.. if there is collusion between competing construction companies.. they have an investigation..

When caught.. the company gets a fine of maybe 10% of what they are accused of stealing.. 

BUT.. have a contract for a bridge that needs emergency repairs that has a "finish early" clause.. and the unions get it done done in record time..


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

B4T said:


> The problem with union construction is they can never get the numbers right in the beginning of the job..
> 
> Having cost overruns of 100 - 200 - 300% on public works jobs are the norm..
> 
> ...


I've only seen this practice done by the larger non union in my area.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Almost seems like something American, you know freedom of association, freedom to move. Durn those stupid freedoms.


Not really. We have a system set up to take care of members healthcare and retirement. If you let anybody work whenever the system would not work.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Entitled


Your the biggest f'n crybaby. waaaaaah. I wish they would have let your sorry behind in, so we wouldn't have to hear you cry all the time.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> I've only seen this practice done by the larger non union in my area.


Everything done in NYC has this problem.. there are about (5) projects going on right now..

Here is one of them.. http://gothamist.com/2012/05/22/lirr_to_grand_central_years_late_an.php


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Well we know NY is crooked. Just not the rest of the world.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well we know NY is crooked. Just not the rest of the world.


Lets not forget the Boston "Big Dig".. that project had to break a few records..


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Your the biggest f'n crybaby. waaaaaah. I wish they would have let your sorry behind in, so we wouldn't have to hear you cry all the time.


:laughing: Says the guy crying about me :laughing:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well we know NY is crooked. Just not the rest of the world.





B4T said:


> Lets not forget the Boston "Big Dig".. that project had to break a few records..


I think in general the Northeast is a crooked as they come.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

B4T said:


> The problem with union construction is they can never get the numbers right in the beginning of the job..
> 
> Having cost overruns of 100 - 200 - 300% on public works jobs are the norm..
> 
> ...


The numbers before the job starts have nothing to do with either the union or the contractors...those numbers come from the engineers and government officials. 

Public works are bid, so any overruns are the result of approved change orders...often needed correct design flaws in the issued for bid prints and specs. 

Around here most public works projects require a performance bond by the contractor, so if he can't complete the project, the bonding company pays another contractor to complete the project. The taxpayers do not get stuck just because the contractor had the wrong price.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Everything done in NYC has this problem.. there are about (5) projects going on right now..
> 
> Here is one of them.. http://gothamist.com/2012/05/22/lirr_to_grand_central_years_late_an.php


If you read the story, the delay has little to do with the construction trades but rather with the actual planning of the job..which falls on the MTA, Amtrak, and the LIRR engineering departments.

Of course, the easy thing to do is to blame some hat with a shovel for the delays and cost over runs.
It also doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out a job estimated to cost x of dollars today is going to cost y dollars in 4 years.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

B4T said:


> Lets not forget the Boston "Big Dig".. that project had to break a few records..


BBQ would probably know better than most.

....I read this article:
http://www.boston.com/news/specials/bechtel/part_1/
....which blames engineering.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> BBQ would probably know better than most.
> 
> ....I read this article:
> http://www.boston.com/news/specials/bechtel/part_1/
> ....which blames engineering.



Wow. Actually backing up claims with facts instead of purely pointing the finger (blaming on unions). What a concept!


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> Lets not forget the Boston "Big Dig".. that project had to break a few records..


Barely the tip of the iceberg....

http://www.bigdighighwayrobbery.com/


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

henderson14 said:


> Wow. Actually backing up claims with facts instead of purely pointing the finger (blaming on unions). What a concept!


It was a perfect storm of corruption. Polticos, engineers, and unions.


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## Boomer (Oct 19, 2011)

brian john said:


> Almost seems like something American, you know freedom of association, freedom to move. Durn those stupid freedoms.


Yeah, the *freedom* to choose whether you want to work union vs. non-union. If you don't like the rules, don't join the "club".


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> Barely the tip of the iceberg....
> 
> http://www.bigdighighwayrobbery.com/



Just exactly who is Robert Skole?

More importantly...


> The cast of characters -- fictional and real -- in this new novel include magnificent local and national politicians, construction managers, contractors, consultants, engineers, designers, architects, flacks, hacks, quacks, so-called journalists, phonies, finaglers, happy bankrupts and billionaire builders laughing all the way to their Cayman Islands bank accounts.
> 
> Watch for the novel: _The Big Dig -- America's Greatest Highway Robbery
> _


So you are believing the blurb about a book - that contains FICTIONAL CHARACTERS - as some sort of gospel truth here?

Seriously?


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

B4T said:


> The problem with union construction is they can never get the numbers right in the beginning of the job..
> 
> Having cost overruns of 100 - 200 - 300% on public works jobs are the norm..
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with Union or Non-Union. Designers constantly under-estimate the costs associated with projects. I have been in numerous meetings with engineers that think we as contractors should have included everything in the bid, even if it wasn't depicted on the drawings or in the specifications. As far as corruption, both Union & Non Union contractors have their political "friends" to help them out.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Just exactly who is Robert Skole?
> 
> More importantly...
> So you are believing the blurb about a book - that contains FICTIONAL CHARACTERS - as some sort of gospel truth here?
> ...



That doesn't even begin to get to the meat of it. :no:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

pjmurph2002 said:


> This has nothing to do with Union or Non-Union. Designers constantly under-estimate the costs associated with projects. I have been in numerous meetings with engineers that think we as contractors should have included everything in the bid, even if it wasn't depicted on the drawings or in the specifications. As far as corruption, both Union & Non Union contractors have their political "friends" to help them out.


Project Labor Agreements. :whistling2:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> That doesn't even begin to get to the meat of it. :no:


I am questioning you on the link that you posted...not asking for some cryptic response.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> I am questioning you on the link that you posted...not asking for some cryptic response.


WTF do you want to know? :confused1: Nothing cryptic about my response. The link may be suspect but the info is true and as I said doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of three decades of corruption that continue to this day.


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Project Labor Agreements. :whistling2:


Again, this has nothing to do with the final cost of a project compared to the initial proposal amount. Stop trying to blame all bad things on Unions and all good things on Non-Union. They both have their flaws and their benefits.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

pjmurph2002 said:


> Again, this has nothing to do with the final cost of a project compared to the initial proposal amount. Stop trying to blame all bad things on Unions and all good things on Non-Union. They both have their flaws and their benefits.


I agree with your last sentence but when it comes to public construction unions and their PLA's jack up the cost.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> I am questioning you on the link that you posted...not asking for some cryptic response.


Here's one. It's actually funny too. :laughing:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/05/carmen_the_chee.html


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

henderson14 said:


> If you ever want to move you aren't allowed to switch locals. Especially today when there is no work. From what I know, the only way to switch locals is to sign book 2, hope you eventually get hired, and work 2000 hours.


I think this is what brothers :laughing: call "Jamming your ticket into another local". They frown on this. Where is the brotherhood? Just because you get 2000 hours does not mean you are automatically book 1. You will still need to be voted in. Keep in mind the local here has a ****ty reputation with travelers. Where do you think the saying "thirteen-four" came from.

Good luck and really wish you all the best with what ever you do.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> WTF do you want to know? :confused1: Nothing cryptic about my response. The link may be suspect but the info is true and as I said doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of three decades of corruption that continue to this day.


The link might as well have been to Toys R Us.
It held nothing of any value or substance for your Big Dig comments.

I think you missed the plot with the "exciting" url the website has.

Of course "That doesn't even begin to get to the meat of it ", it's an ad for a fictional novel. :laughing:


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> I agree with your last sentence but when it comes to public construction unions and their PLA's jack up the cost.


The initial cost may or may not be higher, but the final cost has nothing to do with PLA's, as opposed to poorly deigned, and under budgeted projects. A change order is a change order, Union or Non Union.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

*...getting back on topic here...*



henderson14 said:


> If you ever want to move you aren't allowed to switch locals. Especially today when there is no work. From what I know, the only way to switch locals is to sign book 2, hope you eventually get hired, and work 2000 hours.


Did you ever stop and wonder why its called a LOCAL?


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Did you ever stop and wonder why its called a LOCAL?


If you move to a new location your are now "local."


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> The link might as well have been to Toys R Us.
> It held nothing of any value or substance for your Big Dig comments.
> 
> I think you missed the plot with the "exciting" url the website has.
> ...


It doesn't matter what the link is or who wrote it. The substance is what matters and it's true.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> It doesn't matter what the link is or who wrote it. The substance is what matters and it's true.


OMG 



BTW, the world is flat and its true because I said so. :blink:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

B4T said:


> The problem with union construction is they can never get the numbers right in the beginning of the job..
> 
> *Having cost overruns of 100 - 200 - 300% on public works jobs are the norm..
> *
> ...


..what does that have to do with unions? A contract has a start and completion date, has NOTHING to do if the job is union or non union! Another myth busted.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Celtic said:


> OMG
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the world is flat and its true because I said so. :blink:


So you are saying that it's NOT true?  :laughing: :no:

Why are you being such a **** about this? Do you have family members living off the graft and corruption of the Big Dig? :laughing:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Did you ever stop and wonder why its called a LOCAL?





henderson14 said:


> If you move to a new location your are now "local."


You really think so?

So if you crawl into bed with a complete stranger, does that make you a married couple?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> So you are saying that it's NOT true?  :laughing: :no:


Which statement?
Mine, yours or your internet journalist/novelist?



electricmanscott said:


> Why are you being such a **** about this?


So my questioning you/your sources makes me a ****?
Thanks for the compliment ~ thats the nicest thing anyone's said to me in awhile.
I would be lying if I said I was sorry for getting you hot under the collar.




electricmanscott said:


> Do you have family members living off the graft and corruption of the Big Dig? :laughing:


I dunno....last time I was in Boston was over 25 yrs ago...I met this young lady ...
...or was that Salem?
:whistling2:


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## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

Celtic said:


> You really think so?
> 
> So if you crawl into bed with a complete stranger, does that make you a married couple?


I am going to have to try that one out !!!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Project Labor Agreements. :whistling2:


Pla's are good for both parties. Governments aren't the only one using them. Private business use them Also. I guess you fly by the seat of your pants and don't use contracts with your customers.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Boomer said:


> If they didn't have that rule, there would be no need for a book two. So travelers would have equal opportunity to work in your local w/out ever planning to live or contribute to your community. Its a good rule :thumbsup:


That's a stupid rule.

It's an *international* brotherhood, and yet it punishes those that move in this highly mobile world?

To be honest, it's _the_ number one reason I haven't joined and I've flirted with the notion once in new olreans and once in philly.

I'll be moving to Texas soon.


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## Boomer (Oct 19, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> That's a stupid rule.
> 
> It's an *international* brotherhood, and yet it punishes those that move in this highly mobile world?
> 
> ...


You can work where ever you want, hence book 2. If you decide to live there permanently, I believe you have to work a certain amount of hours to transfer your local. 

There's many pros and cons to both sides...give it a rest. You union bashers are beating a dead horse. :bangin:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Boomer said:


> There's many pros and cons to both sides...give it a rest. You union bashers are beating a dead horse. :bangin:


And as usual anyone not just being a yes man is called a basher.


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## Boomer (Oct 19, 2011)

BBQ said:


> And as usual anyone not just being a yes man is called a basher.


Being an ill informed "man". What are we 15 years old? Jeezus :no:


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> You really think so?
> 
> So if you crawl into bed with a complete stranger, does that make you a married couple?



Well you asked "why they called it a local." Its because it's for "locals." Your making an bad analogy. We are all already in bed together because we are all part of the IBEW. If I went to a new contractor for a different local I don't think it would be equivalent to cheating on my life with a stranger because no one would know a difference. Besides that, I wasn't really trying to debate it, just stating one problem of many for unionized construction.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Well you asked "why they called it a local." Its because it's for "locals." Your making an bad analogy. We are all already in bed together because we are all part of the IBEW. If I went to a new contractor for a different local I don't think it would be equivalent to cheating on my life with a stranger because no one would know a difference. Besides that, I wasn't really trying to debate it, just stating one problem of many for unionized construction.



Why are they called JOURNEYMEN?
The name alone implies travel.


I could do this all week.


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## angryceltic (Feb 21, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> I think in general the Northeast is a crooked as they come.


Northeast or Illinois? Wonder which way the scale would tip there?


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Why are they called JOURNEYMEN?
> The name alone implies travel.
> 
> 
> I could do this all week.



Shouldn't they be called LOCALMEN?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Why are they called JOURNEYMEN?
> The name alone implies travel.
> 
> 
> I could do this all week.


Good point, though it is just semantics.

According to wikipedia:



> The word _journeyman_ comes from the French word _journee_, which means the period of one day. The title refers to the journeyman's right to charge a fee for each day's work. Journeymen would normally be employed by a master craftsman, but would live apart and might have a family of their own. A journeyman could not employ others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> Shouldn't they be called LOCALMEN?


No.
..


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

i have to agree. I wanted out of my local for a long time, but there was no chance of getting out on book 2 in the local i wanted to be a part of. Finally a big job came up, so i moved the wife and kid out here and ive almost got enough hours, but the job is ending. I will be just shy of getting my hours. There is a chance i might not be able to get back out off book 2 to get my remaining 150 hours, so i would never get my hours. I'll be forced to leave my newly established home where my wife has found a good job and move back to the area that i so desperately wanted to get away from


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jimmy21 said:


> i have to agree. I wanted out of my local for a long time, but there was no chance of getting out on book 2 in the local i wanted to be a part of. Finally a big job came up, so i moved the wife and kid out here and ive almost got enough hours, but the job is ending. I will be just shy of getting my hours. There is a chance i might not be able to get back out off book 2 to get my remaining 150 hours, so i would never get my hours. I'll be forced to leave my newly established home where my wife has found a good job and move back to the area that i so desperately wanted to get away from


Get set up as a contractor, 
become signitory,
hire self.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm I missing something who is making you move anywhere?


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Theriot said:


> I'm I missing something who is making you move anywhere?


If I can't become book 1 because calls aren't getting to book 2 I will be caught in a catch 22 and be forced to move for financial reasons


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Get set up as a contractor,
> become signitory,
> hire self.


I need 8000 hours as a journeyman to take the supervisors license test, which I don't have yet


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Couldn't you just marry into a wealthy family and not worry about that


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jimmy21 said:


> I need 8000 hours as a journeyman to take the supervisors license test, which I don't have yet


Go non-union, or get permission to salt.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Go non-union, or get permission to salt.


Salt= Jerk on a stick, so if you want to be a jerk try to ruin an open shop. You want to be union join the union, let the businessman that decides to be open shop alone. Or you could If you hate working for a open shop start your own UNION SHOP.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

Theriot said:


> I'm I missing something who is making you move anywhere?


You are missing something. No one is making anyone move anywhere. The whole point is that you don't have the FREEDOM to move anywhere. Your life in basically confined to a specific geographical area. The point is that, that is a PROBLEM for many people, myself included. Independent of if you are or are not being forced to move, it is still a problem for many.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

henderson14 said:


> You are missing something. No one is making anyone move anywhere. The whole point is that you don't have the FREEDOM to move anywhere. Your life in basically confined to a specific geographical area. The point is that, that is a PROBLEM for many people, myself included. Independent of if you are or are not being forced to move, it is still a problem for many.


You can move there just has to be a need for you when you get there.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Frasbee said:


> Go non-union, or get permission to salt.


I'm currently working. But when I was off, right after turning out, I salted 2 jobs. That is the only work I've had as a journeyman in my home local. That's the reason I want to leave. There is no work there and there is never going to be any work there. There is 2 union shops and if you don't work for them, you don't work in the area


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> I'm currently working. But when I was off, right after turning out, I salted 2 jobs. That is the only work I've had as a journeyman in my home local. That's the reason I want to leave. There is no work there and there is never going to be any work there. There is 2 union shops and if you don't work for them, you don't work in the area


I hate to sound cynical but you knew that going in, seems like the IBEW may not have been the best choice.

There are places with some work and travelers are working but you need to do some research.


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## henderson14 (Oct 23, 2010)

brian john said:


> You can move there just has to be a need for you when you get there.



Stating the obvious


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> Salt= Jerk on a stick, so if you want to be a jerk try to ruin an open shop. You want to be union join the union, let the businessman that decides to be open shop alone. Or you could If you hate working for a open shop start your own UNION SHOP.


Business owners don't base their business decisions on whether or not it's going to put someone out. They base it on profitability.

Every man is his own business owner looking to make a profit for himself and his family.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Business owners don't base their business decisions on whether or not it's going to put someone out. They base it on profitability.


That is right and how it should be, that owener took the risks it is their bussiness, you do not have to work their if you dont like the operation. 



> Every man is his own business owner looking to make a profit for himself and his family.


So man up, start your own bussiness don't be a POS and try to ruin someone else's. 

Salts are scum.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

BBQ said:


> That is right and how it should be, that owener took the risks it is their bussiness, you do not have to work their if you dont like the operation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By law salting is legal, therefore it's okay.

Stealing customers is dirty, but it's legal and the only winner is the guy making the money.

Legislation to enable interest groups at the expense of others is the law of the land. The land of the out to make a buck no matter what.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> By law salting is legal, therefore it's okay.
> 
> Stealing customers is dirty, but it's legal and the only winner is the guy making the money.
> 
> Legislation to enable interest groups at the expense of others is the law of the land. The land of the out to make a buck no matter what.


A lot of stuff may be legal but partaking it in shows the level you may have sunk to to achieve an end.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> A lot of stuff may be legal but partaking it in shows the level you may have sunk to to achieve an end.


Yeah, that really stopped the politicians and CEO's.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Yeah, that really stopped the politicians and CEO's.


So because others are bums you would gladly join in, I would have thought you had higher morals.

As my grandmother use to say, "Two wrongs don't make a right"


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> So because others are bums you would gladly join in, I would have thought you had higher morals.
> 
> As my grandmother use to say, "Two wrongs don't make a right"


In the end, nothing really matters. We're all going to die, and fade into nothingness.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

brian john said:


> So because others are bums you would gladly join in, I would have thought you had higher morals.
> 
> As my grandmother use to say, "Two wrongs don't make a right"


My grandfather would always say it that grandma two trips to haul ass.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

brian john said:


> So because others are bums you would gladly join in, I would have thought you had higher morals.
> 
> As my grandmother use to say, "Two wrongs don't make a right"


My grandfather always said it takes grandma two trips to haul ass


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> In the end, nothing really matters. We're all going to die, and fade into nothingness.


Why not avoid all the drama that comes up to that point then?:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> In the end, nothing really matters. We're all going to die, and fade into nothingness.


That is an excuse to trash what someone else works for?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> That is an excuse to trash what someone else works for?


Business has it's risks. That's just reality, you don't have to like it or approve it. If it's too much for a business owner to face they should go work for someone.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Business has it's risks. That's just reality, you don't have to like it or approve it. If it's too much for a business owner to face they should go work for someone.


What has that got to do with you condoning an attempt to destroy what someone else works for? 

Operating a business takes a certain amount of risk, being attacked by a salt should not be one of them.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> What has that got to do with you condoning a of life low moral living.
> 
> Operating a busies takes a certain amount of risk, being attacked by a salt should not be one of them.


The argument could be made that salting to organize an shop serves the greater good for the employees by improving their pay and work conditions and therefore not qualifying as a "less than moral" decision.

It's funny you bringing morals into an economic discussion. Economics are just winners and losers. Haves and have-nots. Not "more moral and less moral".

Organizing a shop out of business and risking employment is simply a risk employees need to accept as well.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> The argument could be made that salting to organize an shop serves the greater good for the employees by improving their pay and work conditions and therefore not qualifying as a "less than moral" decision.
> 
> It's funny you bringing morals into an economic discussion. Economics are just winners and losers. Haves and have-nots. Not "more moral and less moral".
> 
> Organizing a shop out of business and risking employment is simply a risk employees need to accept as well.


So wait, you're trying to tell me that if an open shop is going fine, they're salted (which I 100% DISAGREE with) and told of things of grandeur, an the the company ends up belly up, well oh we'll? That's just life eh? No, f**k that attitude. Maybe the union shouldn't be trying to convert shops that are doing fine. And don't try to tell me that if things weren't bad, they wouldn't have voted to unionize. That is a load of s**t. If the employees were that unhappy with their shop, they wouldn't need to be salted. 

Try that sh*t at my shop, I'll make sure that you never come by to my shop. Not physically, but maybe something turns up missing and it's found in your truck....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> The argument could be made that salting to organize an shop serves the greater good for the employees by improving their pay and work conditions and therefore not qualifying as a "less than moral" decision.
> 
> It's funny you bringing morals into an economic discussion. Economics are just winners and losers. Haves and have-nots. Not "more moral and less moral".
> 
> Organizing a shop out of business and risking employment is simply a risk employees need to accept as well.


OK...........Hope you never get salted if you own or operate a shop.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

henderson14 said:


> If you ever want to move you aren't allowed to switch locals. Especially today when there is no work. From what I know, the only way to switch locals is to sign book 2, hope you eventually get hired, and work 2000 hours.


Isn't that just "fair" treatment to the people who are in the local that you have entered into?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I think it's just business. Company's are always trying to take out their competition and steal their employees. Salting is no different.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I think it called salting, cause your left salty.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I think it's just business. Company's are always trying to take out their competition and steal their employees. Salting is no different.


That salts aren't found stealing more chain than they can swim with is a miracle.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

My main gripe with salting is that it's not selective. 

If you want to approach a shop where the guys are legitimately suffering from poor working conditions and try to unionize it, I have no problem with that.

But every merit shop is considered a target by virtue of the fact that they simply aren't union. That's ridiculous. If the merit shop provides decent wages, treats the guys well, and doesn't have labor law violations, why should there be a need to unionize? 

And that's what gets lost.

-John


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's just a term. No different than any other company trying to get the best talent.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> It's just a term. No different than any other company trying to get the best talent.


But it's not about getting the best talent, or the union shops would just simply contact the employees and tell them they pay more, and better benefits, etc. 

I'm sorry, you're trying to justify something that is wrong. If a company is started with the intent to be an open merit shop, that's their right. If the employees want to unionize, that is their decision, but they shouldn't have (essentially) a mole trying to get them to do it. If it was that bad, they'd do it on their own. THEY would contact the union and say they want to unionize. 

What is the purpose of "salting" other than to get that shop to unionize and get more money for the union? 

Answer it honestly.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> But it's not about getting the best talent, or the union shops would just simply contact the employees and tell them they pay more, and better benefits, etc.
> 
> I'm sorry, you're trying to justify something that is wrong. If a company is started with the intent to be an open merit shop, that's their right. If the employees want to unionize, that is their decision, but they shouldn't have (essentially) a mole trying to get them to do it. If it was that bad, they'd do it on their own. THEY would contact the union and say they want to unionize.
> 
> ...


It's all about money.

Always.

The IBEW is out to profit for itself just like any other business. Non-profits don't just disappear even when they complete their original goals. They will continue to try to legitimize their existence because overhead wants to make money too.

If they can carve a legal means to give themselves an advantage, they will.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> But it's not about getting the best talent, or the union shops would just simply contact the employees and tell them they pay more, and better benefits, etc.
> 
> I'm sorry, you're trying to justify something that is wrong. If a company is started with the intent to be an open merit shop, that's their right. If the employees want to unionize, that is their decision, but they shouldn't have (essentially) a mole trying to get them to do it. If it was that bad, they'd do it on their own. THEY would contact the union and say they want to unionize.
> 
> ...


You answered it. It is all about the money isn't it? Everybody want's more business, plain and simple. Every business has their self interest at mind.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> You answered it. It is all about the money isn't it? Everybody want's more business, plain and simple. Every business has their self interest at mind.


Yes but me sticking one of my employees into another firms operation to screw that operation is dishonest, morally corrupt and in the case of a puts them in the realm of a J*ck off jerk, that needs to eat a baseball bat.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

It's funny, my friend non union, their company is part of the ABC with their agenda. Isn't that a union? Isn't any group that has an agenda or interest together a union? Most people get mad cause we have been doing it longer and are a little better at it. Still no different than any other group.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

brian john said:


> Yes but me sticking one of my employees into another firms operation to screw that operation is dishonest, morally corrupt and in the case of a puts them in the realm of a J*ck off jerk, that needs to eat a baseball bat.


Your opinion.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I am union, I am for presenting the union to open shops, holding meetings trying to get open shop men into the local. I have brought quite a few open shop men into the union, electricians and green workers. But if a man wants to operate an open shop that is his choice, you want to shut him down by bringing his men into the local and having them work union for union shops I am more than happy with that.

Salting is a a low life approach to destroying what someone worked hard to develop and once again makes the union look like Sh*t on a stick.

But the unions can't seem to see that losing a fair portion of the market is outside their intelligent approach to organizing.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Brian that's your opinion. If i want to sell gas for $5 a gallon i can. Yet someone will try to sell it cheaper and steal my customers. That's not fair. It sucks, but that's that part of business that get's ugly.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm with you on the organizing part. I'm all about training and having the best electricians out there. Getting customers by giving them good quality trained electricians.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Brian that's your opinion. If i want to sell gas for $5 a gallon i can. Yet someone will try to sell it cheaper and steal my customers. That's not fair. It sucks, but that's that part of business that get's ugly.


But if I get a job at that gas station and work to damage his business from the inside, that is unscrupuleous and IMO makes the person a POS.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> You answered it. It is all about the money isn't it? Everybody want's more business, plain and simple. Every business has their self interest at mind.


Do other companies make it a point to try to sabotage a competitor from the inside? Then brag about it? 

Nope. It's dirty. You want to make more money than another crew? Be a better company than them. Plain and simple.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> Brian that's your opinion. If i want to sell gas for $5 a gallon i can. Yet someone will try to sell it cheaper and steal my customers. That's not fair. It sucks, but that's that part of business that get's ugly.


No, that is NOT what salting is. NOT ONE BIT. You're fooling NOBODY. I've seen what the unions do, and I know their motivation. Their motivation is MORE money for them, by FORCING an OPEN shop into the union, against the owners desires. 

Sorry, that is a sh*t move. And the fact that you support it, and even seem to be defending it, and trying (unsuccessfully I might add) to convince people that it's ok, and it's no big deal, they're just trying to get better workers, blah blah blah, quite frankly sir, it's disgusting and repulsive. 

Do you own your own company, or are you employed by someone?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Don't act like the big bad union goes in a guns everyone down. I guy gets a job based on his experience, gives the man 8 for 8 goes home. In the mean time it's not a crime to talk about your good experience with the local and the benifits of a union wage.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> If i want to sell gas for $5 a gallon i can. Yet someone will try to sell it cheaper and steal my customers. That's not fair. It sucks, but that's that part of business that get's ugly.


:001_huh: :blink:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> :001_huh: :blink:


:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

If a contractor treats his men fairly he won't have to worry about them leaving. If a salt says "the union offers higher wages, insurance and a pension." The man's response should be "my contractor already pays me a competitive wage, gives me insurance, and pays my 401k". Otherwise the contractor has no reason to bitch.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> If a contractor treats his men fairly he won't have to worry about them leaving. If a salt says "the union offers higher wages, insurance and a pension." The man's response should be "my contractor already pays me a competitive wage, gives me insurance, and pays my 401k". Otherwise the contractor has no reason to bitch.


Other than some entitled a-holes stealing his business.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> Other than some entitled a-holes stealing his business.


I don't think anyone is holding anyone else at gun point and forcing anyone to leave. A contractor shouldn't be afraid of his men having all the information. If he treats his men fairly he shouldn't lose any men. If he isn't treating them fairly he deserves to lose buisness


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

jimmy21 said:


> I don't think anyone is holding anyone else at gun point and forcing anyone to leave. A contractor shouldn't be afraid of his men having all the information. If he treats his men fairly he shouldn't lose any men. If he isn't treating them fairly he deserves to lose buisness


But some would say he can run his business as he chooses, and that a disgruntled employee should simply quit if a compromise can't be made.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> Don't act like the big bad union goes in a guns everyone down. I guy gets a job based on his experience, gives the man 8 for 8 goes home. In the mean time it's not a crime to talk about your good experience with the local and the benifits of a union wage.


No, it's not a crime. You're correct about that. 

But that's not what you're advocating. I would have NO problem whatsoever talking to others in the trade about how "good" you have it. Yell it from the mountaintops, I'll give you a ride up there. 

But, don't get a job at that company, with the ONLY intention of convincing the guys there to unionize. That's dishonest, and ****ish. And THAT is what you're doing. Stop trying to downplay what it is. It's not fooling anyone here. 

You're welcome to believe that being a union electrician is the best thing since sliced bread, I am fine with that. But, don't try to convince anyone here that you are only trying to better other shops, you want their hard earned money, and the owners rightfully earned business. 

In conclusion: If the unions didn't salt, and try to brainwash others, I would support them 100%. But, I cannot support a union whom does those things.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> If a contractor treats his men fairly he won't have to worry about them leaving.



What does "fairly" mean?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> I don't think anyone is holding anyone else at gun point and forcing anyone to leave. A contractor shouldn't be afraid of his men having all the information. If he treats his men fairly he shouldn't lose any men. If he isn't treating them fairly he deserves to lose buisness


I don't mean _losing business_. I mean stealing_ his business_. The one he started, took all the risk, had the knowledge and desire to put in the time and effort to make it successful. The one these people work for at their own will. 

You see it as they have to be treated the way you see fit or else! I see it as if he wants to treat them like crap, as long as it's within the law, he has my 100% support. THEY can work elsewhere OR start their own business.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> THEY can work elsewhere OR start their own business.


Or they can organize. :whistling2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Or they can organize. :whistling2:


Why do you feel it is right to f up another mans company?

Go out and start your own and run it as you feel it is right.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Forcing a company to unionize against the owners wishes is the definition of extortion.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jimmy21 said:


> I don't think anyone is holding anyone else at gun point and forcing anyone to leave. A contractor shouldn't be afraid of his men having all the information. If he treats his men fairly he shouldn't lose any men. If he isn't treating them fairly he deserves to lose buisness


No, if he is not treating them well they can man up, quit and find a job that does treat them fairly.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Celtic said:


> What does "fairly" mean?


Totally a personal issue and different to each.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Why do you feel it is right to f up another mans company?
> 
> Go out and start your own and run it as you feel it is right.


Doesn't matter if you or I think it's right, it legally _is_ a privilege employees have, and an option they should feel comfortable considering when weighing _all_ of their options.

And it's something an employer would be naive to ignore when considering how they want to run their business.

I resent the victim sentiments from both sides. That's really my only point.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> Doesn't matter if you or I think it's right, it legally _is_ a privilege employees have, and an option they should feel comfortable considering when weighing _all_ of their options.
> 
> And it's something an employer would be naive to ignore when considering how they want to run *their business*.
> 
> I resent the victim sentiments from both sides. That's really my only point.


Exactly.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Doesn't matter if you or I think it's right, it legally _is_ a privilege employees have, and an option they should feel comfortable considering when weighing _all_ of their options.
> 
> And it's something an employer would be naive to ignore when considering how they want to run their business.
> 
> I resent the victim sentiments from both sides. That's really my only point.


Victim MY azz, should you ever operate a open shop and a skunk salts you, and it ends you costing you 10's of thousands to fight the ****z, you'll bark out the other side you your mouth.

As a union shop I find it disgusting.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> No, it's not a crime. You're correct about that.
> 
> But that's not what you're advocating. I would have NO problem whatsoever talking to others in the trade about how "good" you have it. Yell it from the mountaintops, I'll give you a ride up there.
> 
> ...


I'm curios as to your experience with salting. What do you think I'm advocating? I guess you speak for the whole internet since it's you and brian that don't like it. I'll make some phone calls and tell the union not to brainwash people and to please stop salting, so you will like us.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

i salted a job. They knew i was union (not from the beginning, but quickly leaned so.) I didnt preach to anyone, but when the topic came up i defended myself and the union. I didn't talk to anyone that didn't want to talk about it. I believe i changed their mind a little bit about the union and at least got a few of them thinking about it. They told me their opinions of the union. That union workers are lazy. I was honest and told them that there definitely are some lazy union workers, just like there are lazy non union hands, but mainly i tried to change their mind on that through hard work. When layoff time came, they laid off their other hands. I never got laid off. They kept me through until the job was 100% finished. Helped sweep the parking lot after the job trailer pulled away and then the boss bought lunch for the few that remained. He wanted me to go to his next job........... I don't see anything unethical about it. Maybe thats different because its a job full of workers that travel from job to job and change contractors every job. I also salted a low voltage shop installing alarms. It went similar. I was working with the same guy every day. I told him good things about the union, never tried to convert him (he wouldn't have made it in the union anyway, his work was sub par for ANY shop.) They were also sad to see me leave. Hardly unethical 
.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

And that's how most go. Don't let these guys fool anybody. The big bad boogie man isn't going to come and crush everyone in sight. If a contractor doesn't want to be union, he doesn't have to. If his guys vote and decide they want union representation, He will simply close and open up under an alter ego. We have even had the non union come and want to hire our guys on a temp basis to pull them out of a hole. I think most will agree monopolies don't work and it has proven the system doesn't work 100% non union and it doesn't work 100% union. Good to be in America and have a choice.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> And that's how most go. Don't let these guys fool anybody. The big bad boogie man isn't going to come and crush everyone in sight. If a contractor doesn't want to be union, he doesn't have to. If his guys vote and decide they want union representation, He will simply close and open up under an alter ego. We have even had the non union come and want to hire our guys on a temp basis to pull them out of a hole. I think most will agree monopolies don't work and it has proven the system doesn't work 100% non union and it doesn't work 100% union. Good to be in America and have a choice.


 
Do you realize the hassle and cost of doing this, we aren't drywallers, we have licenses signed to specific entities, changing that is time consuming and costly.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

That's the cost of being a boss. If he doesn't like the hassles of being boss, he can go work for someone. Your electrical license is not tied to your company name, business licenses are cheap.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> That's the cost of being a boss. If he doesn't like the hassles of being boss, he can go work for someone. Your electrical license is not tied to your company name, business licenses are cheap.


 
You are missing the point, if I came to your house and damaged it how wouold you feel? I could care less if it is legal or not it is the same thing and condoning salting places those union members in the relm of pond scum.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

What happens if the salted EC decides he's not compatible with the union ?
He folds up shop, changes the name and now must absorb all the associated hassle of time and money in refiling the business entity, etc as well as the unmeasurable cost of brand recognition loss. He has already paid his "dues" once starting up.

What happens to his men?
Do they stay with the local?
Do they return to the "new" company?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> What happens if the salted EC decides he's not compatible with the union ?
> He folds up shop, changes the name and now must absorb all the associated hassle of time and money in refiling the business entity, etc as well as the unmeasurable cost of brand recognition loss. He has already paid his "dues" once starting up.
> 
> What happens to his men?
> ...


Depends in a strong union town with lots of work they go union.
In a strong open shop town with lots of work they get another job open shop.
In this economy they draw unemployment.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

i didn't know it was possible to convert a shop to being union against the owners wishes. I see no problem with a hand making his own decision based on information provided, but i don't agree with forcing an owner to organize his shop against his will


For example, in my town, the union wages are 30.50(ish). It works out to something like 45 with benefits. The non union shops pay 25-30, some with benefits, some without. The union shops charge, around 80. The open shops charge about 70. 

Lets say, for the sake of argument, a shop is paying his workers $10 an hour and charging $30/hour. If a worker comes to his senses and decides he wants to make 4-5x the money (with his whole package). Good for him. But all of the sudden telling the owner that he is going to pay his workers 150% of what he charges for labor? 

Ive never heard of a shop being forced to be union. Ive heard of workers deciding they want to be union and threatening to leave if the shop doesn't go union, so the shop makes their own decision to join the union. I find that perfectly acceptable. If a shop wants to have workers to man the job, they should expect to pay a competitive wage.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm not saying I've done or condone it. Just saying it's part of business.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> A lot of stuff may be legal but partaking it in shows the level you may have sunk to to achieve an end.


One of us has a huge misunderstanding about how salting works. I have quite a different idea about the concept.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> One of us has a huge misunderstanding about how salting works. I have quite a different idea about the concept.


 
I can only tell you what has been reported to me by open shops that were salted.
And even if they were nice hard working individuals, they are trying to impact something they DID NOT establish, finance or work to make a success.


You want a company to be union START YOUR OWN.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> One of us has a huge misunderstanding about how salting works. I have quite a different idea about the concept.


Oh please tell me how it works, I love fairy tales.


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