# Wiring Left in Distribution Panel



## Hdinj (May 14, 2014)

Can unterminated wiring be left in a 277/480 distribution panel?

I'm on a job which originally required feeds for future panels scattered throughout the building. The feeds are no longer needed but the conduit and wiring has been run. A coil of wiring has been left hanging out the conduit where the future panels would go. 

The inspector told me to either remove the wiring or safe it off on both ends out side the 277/480 distribution panel.

Is there a code that says I have to remove the wire from the distribution panel or can I just safe it off inside the panel?


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

Since you were already talking to the inspector about it, why not just ask him what he would like done, or give ask him if your solution will be adequate.


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## Hdinj (May 14, 2014)

I would like to leave it in there and take out the fuses just in case they need the feeds in the future


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

Pull it out, scrap it out, take vacation.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

AK_sparky said:


> Since you were already talking to the inspector about it, why not just ask him what he would like done, or give ask him if your solution will be adequate.


Because what he would like doesn't amount to a hill of pebbles if it isn't a written code.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

I would pull out and scrap all the copper and conduit, and send the GC a bill for an inspection mandated T&M change order.


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

InPhase277 said:


> Because what he would like doesn't amount to a hill of pebbles if it isn't a written code.


Still doesn't hurt to ask him, and at the same time ask for a code reference.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

300.18(A) Maybe? The conductors are just hanging outside of an unterminated conduit run?


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

You can make him happy by cutting the pipe , or breaking a coupling , 

Cap or box it ...cut off a foot of wire ...or bend pipe , cut or put in a box. 

Leave empty pipe in pan ... lots of quick options .

He just wants WIRE out of Pan ... Pull wire and cut back ...leave in pipe ,
he is not making you clean up entire job .

Bill for an Hour ...or throw in the 10 minutes ...

Stay friends with inspector ... and get his card for future questions ...
Work together ... You will not look for hours to find some goofy code ref 
when you can call for 20 seconds on the phone...

Team Work

I do not ask for code Ref on inspector calls ... it is his turf ...
Here is a chance to show you are a Team Player ... They will always help you , show respect ... Get his # ...

Inspector is right ... on this I Believe . I will do what he wants anyway ...
for reasons stated .


Don


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

I guess the bigger question is how much does this mean to you, and how much does it mean to the inspector? Picking your battles is a really good investment in time and relationships. He may have a good reason for requiring this. Will it cost you time/money? Is it worth the issues you may run into with the GC? If the inspector holds up occupancy over something that will take you no time to fix, what will that cost?

I don't know the NEC, but I do know that this is not the hill I would die on.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

if this wire is still on fuses it needs to to disconnected at the very least!


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Hdinj said:


> Can unterminated wiring be left in a 277/480 distribution panel?
> 
> I'm on a job which originally required feeds for future panels scattered throughout the building. The feeds are no longer needed but the conduit and wiring has been run. A coil of wiring has been left hanging out the conduit where the future panels would go.
> 
> ...


clearly the conductors hanging out of the conduit are a violation.
IMO the conductors in the panel are not a violation if marked for future use.

you need to decide what suits the client and yourself best and wrap it up.

give the client a couple options for $$. As others said, the best for you is remove and charge for it (yeehaw).


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

I agree with Wildleg .. Violation .

But after rereading post ... he will accept Safe Ends ...

You're call ...


If easier to pull back the 2/3 feet ... do it and cap pipe / connector end in Pan ... or cut it off and cap if excess .

Easy Peassy and will not have to cap other end .

Same if you pull out pipe and wire to outside Pan and KO Seal .




Don


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Hdinj said:


> Can unterminated wiring be left in a 277/480 distribution panel?
> 
> I'm on a job which originally required feeds for future panels scattered throughout the building. The feeds are no longer needed but the conduit and wiring has been run. A coil of wiring has been left hanging out the conduit where the future panels would go.
> 
> ...


Why not see if the inspector is open to other options? Why not marette them all together on both ends? Or use 1 hole crimp lugs on them and a 1/4" bolt and an MSC boot. Then white tape around the group of wires in the panel and where ever they end up with a description of where they go (ie. Panel #1, Junction Box #2, 6" box adjacent to pump #?)...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Incorrect inspector call.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Incorrect inspector call.





Why do you say that MacMikeMan ...


I think he is spot On ... I have had it Both Ways ...

Safe Ends or Out of Pan .



Don


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

danhasenauer said:


> I would pull out and scrap all the copper and conduit, and send the GC a bill for an inspection mandated T&M change order.


...and what happens if the building owner bills you for the cost of wire (you had no right to remove and scrap), and also bills for installation of new wire ? 

Just out of curiosity , what code article are you going to give the owner of the building for this 'inspection mandated' change?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

First, check your drawings and specifications.
If, there is no note or instruction, then RFI the engineer.
It's not the electrical contractor's call. The responsibility falls on the design group. They specified the feeds for future, and as such are the ones to make the call. Very well there will be a PCN, at very least a SI.
Doing anything without instruction will put all the responsibility on you, which could end up costing you ( or the company) dollars


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

wcord said:


> First, check your drawings and specifications.
> If, there is no note or instruction, then RFI the engineer.
> It's not the electrical contractor's call. The responsibility falls on the design group. They specified the feeds for future, and as such are the ones to make the call. Very well there will be a PCN, at very least a SI.
> Doing anything without instruction will put all the responsibility on you, which could end up costing you ( or the company) dollars





the Inspectors make the call here ... and it is code anyway ...

I do not believe a "PE " will over ride on this ... as happens when a "PE"
makes a call here ... I have never seen one based on nonsense ...
"PE" intercedes for other reasons .

Usually OK's Equipment and / or Method ...


Don


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

AlbertaBeef said:


> I guess the bigger question is how much does this mean to you, and how much does it mean to the inspector? Picking your battles is a really good investment in time and relationships. He may have a good reason for requiring this. Will it cost you time/money? Is it worth the issues you may run into with the GC? If the inspector holds up occupancy over something that will take you no time to fix, what will that cost?
> 
> I don't know the NEC, but I do know that this is not the hill I would die on.




Hey Beef ... On Supper Bowl Day ... I can't see a Battle .

But some people love to fight .




Don


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

donaldelectrician said:


> the Inspectors make the call here ... and it is code anyway ...
> 
> I do not believe a "PE " will over ride on this ... as happens when a "PE"
> makes a call here ... I have never seen one based on nonsense ...
> ...


I agree. But by asking for a Instruction, you make the engineer do all the leg work, and when they realize that they missed a code item in their design, you get a Change Order and get paid. 
If it's not on the drawings, or in the specs, any change in the design to meet code is an extra. 
It's all about risk mitigation, and making a profit.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

donaldelectrician said:


> the Inspectors make the call here ... *and it is code anyway* ...
> 
> I do not believe a "PE " will over ride on this ... as happens when a "PE"
> makes a call here ... I have never seen one based on nonsense ...
> ...



Please show me a code requiring removal of unused chapter 3 conductors in a panel.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Please show me a code requiring removal of unused chapter 3 conductors in a panel.



(1) ( Slloppy Paannnnel Code )

(2) ( Wet Back River Jumper Code ... no drips in Pan )

(3) ( Mason Dixon Line Code ) were Drunk South of the Border ...

(4) ( the Massive Danger to life and Limb Code ) the old Peligroso Code 


(5) ( The Very Old Foundation Code ... The I Said So Code .... )



Lets Settle This ... Bronco's Win .... He dose what inspector wants ...

Panthers Win ... He tells the old Goat to stuff it .



Don

PS... Whats Chapter 3 ?


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## AlbertaBeef (Mar 30, 2013)

donaldelectrician said:


> Hey Beef ... On Supper Bowl Day ... I can't see a Battle .
> 
> But some people love to fight .
> 
> ...


I'm not a football fan, but I do love a good supper bowl. :whistling2:


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

360max said:


> ...and what happens if the building owner bills you for the cost of wire (you had no right to remove and scrap), and also bills for installation of new wire ?
> 
> Just out of curiosity , what code article are you going to give the owner of the building for this 'inspection mandated' change?


OK, maybe my post was a knee-jerk reaction after dealing with this same kind of BS for too long. I would probably introduce the Inspector (LAHJ) to the GC and politely bow out, CO pad in hand. No code articles required for a change in the original contract scope of work. I don't give work away.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

Hdinj said:


> Can unterminated wiring be left in a 277/480 distribution panel?
> 
> I'm on a job which originally required feeds for future panels scattered throughout the building. The feeds are no longer needed but the conduit and wiring has been run. A coil of wiring has been left hanging out the conduit where the future panels would go.
> 
> ...




Sorry Dude ...

The Supper Bowl has Spoken .

With the " Bronco Win " You will have to Bow to his Majesties Wishes .


if panthers won you could have told the goat where to stuff it ...




Fate has been Decided .


Don


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## Hdinj (May 14, 2014)

After the outcome of the game, I think I'll just remove it and scrap the copper. 


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