# Is it right to fail this?



## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

What part of 360 do you _not_ get here Hax?
:vs_whistle:
Do you think any inspector is going to grant _you_ a pass because you're thinking two _wrongs_ make a _right_?
:vs_OMG:
Or is the NEC simply up to _anyone's_ interpretation to manifest any way they'd desire to save a $$$
:vs_laugh:


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

Table says 6 #6's so you mean he or she actually calculated the bends and failed it? I would have passed it but I'm not an inspector. I feel certain the inspector I use would have passed it also.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> Table says 6 #6's so you mean he or she actually calculated the bends and failed it? I would have passed it but I'm not an inspector. I feel certain the inspector I use would have passed it also.


What the heck do you know about trenching??!?!?!?!!?

Oh, nice avatar

:vs_laugh:

:biggrin:

It passed, the inspector barely looked at it. But I am just curious when other people think about going over 360 degrees.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SISYPHUS said:


> What part of 360 do you _not_ get here Hax?
> :vs_whistle:
> Do you think any inspector is going to grant _you_ a pass because you're thinking two _wrongs_ make a _right_?
> :vs_OMG:
> ...


360 degrees is a completely arbitrary number. There are many more variables. In my situation 405 degrees is fine, in other situations 315 degrees may be too much.

If the conductors weren't damaged and are in good condition, why go back in time to change something in order to avoid a problem that never actually happened?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All I can say is that's an ugly pull  .


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Consider this Hack:

Inspector calls you on it.
You appeal to his boss.
Book says 360 max.
You have 400+.
What's his boss supposed to do?
What's his boss allowed to do?
Codes are not written by the bldg dept, they are interpreted by the bldg dept.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've yet to ever have anything failed for more than 360 degrees of bends. Sometimes I am, when things like box offsets are considered. Were you planning on volunteering to the inspector that you're at 400 degrees? I doubt any of them pay any real attention to it unless it's something that sticks out like a sore thumb.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> All I can say is that's an ugly pull  .


When glueing it together I squirted smurf jizz into the bends. It went nice and smooth.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

There has to be a maximum in the code or guys would go too far with the bends. 

As for your question, even if I knew you had too many bends but the conductors megged ok, I would pass it and chat with you about the code in case you didn’t know for next time.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> There has to be a maximum in the code or guys would go too far with the bends.
> 
> As for your question, even if I knew you had too many bends but the conductors megged ok, I would pass it and chat with you about the code in case you didn’t know for next time.


This is reasonable, and what I would expect and appreciate.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

The old addage of _asking _permission *vs.* _begging _for forgiveness applies here Hax

:wink:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> Consider this Hack:
> 
> Inspector calls you on it.
> You appeal to his boss.
> ...


I agree that the code official is there to interpret the code. 

That's the point, they should interpret that the code is there to make sure that the conductors aren't damaged. Once they see that the conductors aren't damaged, they should realize that failing the installation and pulling those conductors back out of the pipe, then installing them in a newly ran pipe could only cause damage to them.

You would be adding a risk of damage to conductors because they may have been damaged, but weren't. :surprise:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> The old addage of _asking _permission *vs.* _begging _for forgiveness applies here Hax
> 
> :wink:


It's a few extra degrees. Woop dee doo. Not compliant, for sure, but the likelihood of it being caught is close to nil. The likelihood that it will ever be a future problem is close to nil. I try real hard in life to separate actual problems from things that I know aren't compliant but will never be a problem. Worst case, you cut in a C-body somewhere above ground and pull right through it, or put in a quazite box somewhere. 

Sis- you know the history on the 360 degree rule and where it came from, right?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Relate it to this:



> 300.18 Raceway Installations.
> (A) Complete Runs. Raceways, other than busways or exposed
> raceways having hinged or removable covers, shall be installed
> complete between outlet, junction, or splicing points prior to
> the installation of conductors.


If the inspector walks thru a mall on his day off and sees a crew installing conductors in a raceway that isn't complete, should he later fail the completed installation? Can he make them pull out the conductors, take the raceway apart, install it completely, then pull the conductors back in?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> What the heck do you know about trenching??!?!?!?!!?
> 
> Oh, nice avatar
> 
> ...


You're just going around in circles.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

I’m pretty disenchanted with the whole inspection process. Residentially, anyway. Here, none of the resi inspectors have a licence. Just a short course and now they’re qualified to pass or fail MY work? In this case, even if you pulled your cables through and they didn’t megger out, who’s going to have to pay to fix it? You are. Why you need some joker to look at it and decide wether it’s good or not is stupid, IMO. Your bottom line is your inspection authority.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> You know the history on the 360 degree rule and where it came from, right?


I don't, do tell! 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I don't, do tell!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Waiting for Sis to come up with it to see if he still feels this is a safety issue.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You caught me too soon with this, I can't laugh about it yet. 

I had to run up and down a hill in the rain because someone else got a pass on about 400 degrees of bend or a little over. It's a 1-1/4" pipe installed by someone else. When I pulled everything into it five years ago I didn't even look at it, went fine, zero issues - not even a hitch. 

When I went to add to it last week, still well under fill ration, hideous nightmare. And did I mention it was raining and I had to go back and forth by myself in the rain. 

Fixing it now will be much much harder than it would have been had some jackhole helped a brother out with even a conduit body five years ago. But NOOOOOOO. 

I imagine with this one the problem is you don't want to spend money on a handhole and the owner doesn't want a handhole in their yard and they appreciate you keeping their grass unblemished. About 99% of customers will forget this if they decide they want to add a couple wires three years from now for a 3-way switch or ? in the house. They will be fuming when someone tells them that their tiny job is now a big job because someone pushed their luck with the bend rules. 

I think the 360 rule is set about right. I feel like going from 360 to say 450 is not like a 25% increase in pulling tension, it's more like double the tension that 360 is. I feel like every 90 doubles the tension. 

Conduits between buildings are an important investment, the conduit is more valuable than the wires etc. The expensive thing about running conduit is the trench, not the PVC or the fittings or etc. Put in big pipes, put in extra pipes, do things just right.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

the only time I ever saw an inspector even look for too many bends was 
1) govt engineer 
2) contracted engineering firm whose job was to come in at end of job and find everything wrong they could find 

nobody wants to pull anything in pipe with more than 3 bends, but sometimes it just don't work.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> You caught me too soon with this, I can't laugh about it yet.
> 
> I had to run up and down a hill in the rain because someone else got a pass on about 400 degrees of bend or a little over. It's a 1-1/4" pipe installed by someone else. When I pulled everything into it five years ago I didn't even look at it, went fine, zero issues - not even a hitch.
> 
> ...


You bring up valid points that I would generally agree with. 

But my focus in this thread is only on what sense it makes to enforce the 360 degree rule if the conductors are installed and undamaged.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Adding conductors to an existing pipe only goes one of two ways. Easy peasy, or a hideous nightmare. There ain't much in between, regardless of how many degrees of bend they had in the first place. Whether you're using an existing pull string, pulled in with the original pull, push your own fish tape, or sacrifice an existing conductor, it can turn into a locked up chinese handcuff mess.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> You bring up valid points that I would generally agree with.
> 
> But my focus in this thread is only on what sense it makes to enforce the 360 degree rule if the conductors are installed and undamaged.


I think the only rationale for this, and for the rule against assembling conduit around wires, is that the conduit is supposed to be presumed re-purpose-able; in other words, the conduit isn't just for what you put in it today, it's for whatever is put in it at any time now or in the future. You're not creating a conduit-wire assembly that's like a cable; the raceway itself is a separate standalone entity. 

Mind you, nobody else including me felt this way about that particular conduit until I got all wet in the rain last week.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

How did the fish tape go in? That would have been my biggest worry. Especially if you jizzed in the underground 90's


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I think the only rationale for this, and for the rule against assembling conduit around wires, is that the conduit is supposed to be presumed re-purpose-able; in other words, the conduit isn't just for what you put in it today, it's for whatever is put in it at any time now or in the future. You're not creating a conduit - wire assembly that's like a cable, the raceway itself is a separate standalone entity.


You got me there. :smile:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

We've gone over 360 on occassion. Never been an issue. Usually it's from adding to existing runs, or there are so many obstacles you go over. Poor planning basically.

I would think hard about underground though, cutting concrete and digging it back up would be terrible. We almost always add extra conduits and oversize if possible, and don't take hard 90's, just the shortest most direct routes.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> How did the fish tape go in? That would have been my biggest worry. Especially if you jizzed in the underground 90's


As expected, it was harder than the actual wirepull.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I've yet to ever have anything failed for more than 360 degrees of bends. Sometimes I am, when things like box offsets are considered. Were you planning on volunteering to the inspector that you're at 400 degrees? I doubt any of them pay any real attention to it unless it's something that sticks out like a sore thumb.


I was called in to look at a job another electrical contractor did, the inspector failed the job. 3,000 amp paralleling gear. Eight sets of 500 kcmil in 3-1/2" EMT total number bends exceeded 360º but less than 400º, the wire was installed, contractor meggered all readings full scale of the meter. 

I thought that the install was fine, they had no issues pulling the run and all the conductors as noted meggerd excellent. BUT the AHJ has the ruling power.

I was asked what I would do and right off I saw that adding a header box to the paralleling gear would have IMO simplified the pull and complied with the NEC. The EC appealed the inspection and lost, they had to install a junction box.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I was always taught that the NEC was not a design code. This seems a lot like just that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The earliest editions of the code allowed you to discount bends right at the pull point, like the last 90 into the equipment or box offsets.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> I was called in to look at a job another electrical contractor did, the inspector failed the job. 3,000 amp paralleling gear. Eight sets of 500 kcmil in 3-1/2" EMT total number bends exceeded 360º but less than 400º, the wire was installed, contractor meggered all readings full scale of the meter.
> 
> I thought that the install was fine, they had no issues pulling the run and all the conductors as noted meggerd excellent. BUT the AHJ has the ruling power.
> 
> I was asked what I would do and right off I saw that adding a header box to the paralleling gear would have IMO simplified the pull and complied with the NEC. The EC appealed the inspection and lost, they had to install a junction box.


This illustrates my contention.

The conductors were in and undamaged. But they had to pull them out and then reinstall them, which tripled the risk of damaging them.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I was always taught that the NEC was not a design code. This seems a lot like just that.


Sort of why I'm pushing Sis to look up the history of the 360 degree rule and why it may have been a safety matter at one time, but (I'd submit) it no longer is. 

I'm pretty sure most of use who have done much pipe work have used either a C-body or junction box with knockouts directly across from each other to satisfy this rule from time to time, and pulled straight through them anyhow during the actual pull.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> How did the fish tape go in? That would have been my biggest worry. Especially if you jizzed in the underground 90's





HackWork said:


> As expected, it was harder than the actual wirepull.


It's worth trying one of the Southwire Simpull fish tapes. They don't always work out but sometimes they make things much easier. They didn't have this one when I bought mine, this is probably the one you want, the one I got is 3mm and a little too flimsy, this one is 4.5mm


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have a big fish tape (rodder, actually) that has a head you can put on it that looks like an egg beater. It's excellent for jumping over edges in big pipe.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I have ran into couple of runs that is more than 360° but not too bad as long you dont hit Chicago 90° bends that is the only quirk I hate about it. 

I think the 360° rules been kicked in senice 1920's era due that time they have ridge conduit or some case repurposed gaz pipes with sharp bend so that why it been written that time and with old pipes they were not that smooth a bore inside as modern one is.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

In my area, for an underground service, the poco only allows up to two 90 deg bends. They have 3rd party inspectors who come out and irritate me all thru the process of running a service trench, to installing the conduit , and then if there is to be any encasement, why that means he will be standing 1-1/2 foot away from you the whole day jawboning about how he was a lineman in his youth. Most times I could pull an 18 wheeler Mac truck thru the 3" conduit I had to run with only two bends in it, but ,,,,,,, ole Slim Pickin's wants me to mandrel it in front of him anyway. This is how I feel this whole underground service system they have here works out-

:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I think it is good business that the power guys make you pull mandrells. I have seen way to many "custom" bends (ie blankets or heaters) that mangled/contorted the pipe. why should those guys waste their crew time after some clowns have screwed the pooch.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

The limit on a fish tape is around 360 degrees. Vacuum will go way further as long as no one put glue in the bells. 

On pvc underground it depends what you class as a bend and what you class as a curved ditch. I figure if it didn't take a hot box or a pre-bend then its not counted anyway.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

By "under the patio" do you mean underground?

If so, how will the inspector know the # of degrees? If the wire is already in and undamaged then I'd say "no harm, no foul." or, as Archie Bunker used to say "Dummy up."


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

gpop said:


> On pvc underground it depends what you class as a bend and what you class as a curved ditch. I figure if it didn't take a hot box or a pre-bend then its not counted anyway.


Speaking about that, it's actually 450 degrees of total bends.

But I count it as 405 degrees because I was able to get away with using a 45 instead of a 90 because I could bend both lengths leading up to each side of that fitting.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bill39 said:


> By "under the patio" do you mean underground?
> 
> If so, how will the inspector know the # of degrees? If the wire is already in and undamaged then I'd say "no harm, no foul." or, as Archie Bunker used to say "Dummy up."


Yes, hidden underground.

It's all up and down bends so it would be easy to count.

To be honest, I was worried that an inspector could say that he didn't inspect the existing underground run so the patio had to be ripped up :surprise:


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

Cut a C-fitting in half the long way, ream it out so you can glue it back together around the pipe somewhere in the middle of the run and tell him you fixed it.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Sis- you know the history on the 360 degree rule and where it came from, right?


Not really, please enlighten me


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Waiting for Sis to come up with it to see if he still feels this is a safety issue.


Would service disco #7 or 8 be an _unsafe _situation MD? 

How about 25" between countertop receptacles?

The NEC is full of benchmarks, pick any you'd like & we can debate it's validity juxtaposed to safety

I'll agree a few degrees is _not_ a safety issue, because those that insist the NEC as some zero tolerance doctrine reduce it to zero_ brains_.

Today i did 35 past a cop in a 30mph zone, he could'nt be_ bothered _with me even though he could well have written me up.

Further, there isn't an EC alive and/or posting here that has _not_ made concessions. Add to that just because an ahj looks past it (or the cop w/me) doesn't make it right.

But that's not the _real_ issue, nor motivation .... 

The real issue is how* FAR* we can _push the evelope_ via expressed petulance . 

Notice how it's *450*, not 405 now? well timed at that...

Next week we'll be in a similar thread like this,https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/what-would-you-do-264696/

The NEC ,NFPA, and all it's alliances & adjuncts may not be _perfect_, but it's all we got , so i got to _ask_ you

Do we _really_ want ET sponsors , along with the general public reading how openly and badly we _disregard_ and_ disrespect_ our trade ?

Or maybe i should just do 40 past that cop tomorrow....and wave as i do

~SIS~
:vs_cool:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> Would service disco #7 or 8 be an _unsafe _situation MD?
> 
> How about 25" between countertop receptacles?
> 
> ...


All I got out of that was 
you have drivers license, which is scary
You break the law on a regular basis.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SISYPHUS said:


> Would service disco #7 or 8 be an _unsafe _situation MD?
> 
> How about 25" between countertop receptacles?
> 
> ...


 I am with you up until this point.



> But that's not the _real_ issue, nor motivation ....
> 
> The real issue is how* FAR* we can _push the evelope_ via expressed petulance .


 I am not sure what the last part about "expressed petulance" means. But to answer your question about how far we can push the envelope, the answer is very simple: Until it is unsafe.

The conductors are in good condition and they meggered good. What more do you need to know?



> Notice how it's *450*, not 405 now? well timed at that...
> 
> Next week we'll be in a similar thread like this,https://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/what-would-you-do-264696/
> 
> The NEC ,NFPA, and all it's alliances & adjuncts may not be _perfect_, but it's all we got ,


 No, its all that YOU got. I have my own brain.



> so i got to _ask_ you
> Do we _really_ want ET sponsors , along with the general public reading how openly and badly we _disregard_ and_ disrespect_ our trade ?


 I am not disrespecting "our trade". 

The NEC is NOT "our trade". The NEC is made up by a corrupt panel in the pocket of the manufacturers by a for profit corporation. 

I have ZERO respect for the NEC. For some reason you see it as a badge of honor to follow the NEC brainlessly, I see it as slavery.



> Or maybe i should just do 40 past that cop tomorrow....and wave as i do
> 
> ~SIS~
> :vs_cool:


This is life. I break electrical codes just like I break the law.

The truth is that both are filled with stupidity. Not a single American can say that they lived 1 day of their life without breaking some law.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

> *I have ZERO respect for the NEC*












:vs_cool:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SISYPHUS said:


> :vs_cool:


As someone who says that he hates corporate greed and the big guys stepping on the little guys, you should feel the same way. The NEC is the epitome of corporate corruption of government.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

https://youtu.be/YRQFMHRSj9I?t=12


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Sis- what's your badge number? :vs_laugh:

I do understand where you're coming from, though. I've met people before who also think the world is coming to an end from the most trivial of things. These are generally people who have no actual problems in their lives. So, as a result, they lack perspective when little things come along. I'd recommend folks who find themselves in this situation to get a good book on coping skills.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It passed, the inspector barely looked at it. But I am just curious when other people think about going over 360 degrees.



I'll go over or stay way under it depending on the situation.


I just did a pull of 3x #10s in 1" PVC 2 weeks ago, total length was just over 1,300'. I didn't go and measure all the angles but once you figured the couple fittings and then all the twists and turns it was probably 600 degrees. We didn't run the pipe I just got stuck pulling it. Cut in one C, sucked jet line then pulled mule tape and pulled all the way up.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I have a big fish tape (rodder, actually) that has a head you can put on it that looks like an egg beater. It's excellent for jumping over edges in big pipe.


Did yours come with the nylon head with the little wheels? Silliest thing I've seen in a long time. And about useless.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

a curve in the length of a joint of conduit is not considered a bend unless it exceeds 15 degrees.
a bend of 15 degrees exerts a lot more friction than a straight run.
but it also depends on how anal the inspector is.:vs_laugh:


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Sis- what's your badge number? :vs_laugh:
> 
> I do understand where you're coming from, though. I've met people before who also think the world is coming to an end from the most trivial of things. These are generally people who have no actual problems in their lives. So, as a result, they lack perspective when little things come along. I'd recommend folks who find themselves in this situation to get a good book on coping skills.


I have a_ license_ #, as well as an EIN # , and as some folks here have found my full sirname i'm sure they have _that _too. Maybe they'll be another _bogus_ review with it.

And i think i've achieved a _level _of coping skills as an EC, as well as 3 decades in the emergency services. One can't write the_ sh*t _folks get themselves into

But i digress, being _objective_ lends perspective. Logging out for a while and then _back in_ does too. To consistently _trivialize_ the very doctrine we stand on drags us _all _down a notch. And it is consistent, which paying attention over _years_ of time reveals. 

That was the TW goal, _disrupt...divide....degrade_, more your _badge_ would apply 

Best of luck _coping _with that MD

~SIS~
:vs_cool:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> To consistently _trivialize_ the very doctrine we stand on drags us _all _down a notch.


Ah, see I knew we'd get to the bottom of this. You're making a gigantic assumption, thinking this is the doctrine we all stand on. You see, I'm a thinking man. There are few written doctrines upon which I fully stand. There are many that are used for guidance, however. My worth and relevance as an electrician is not predicated upon the strictest observation of any particular document drafted by another group of men. I can understand the appeal, however. It makes going though life by letting a document think for you much easier than having independent thought.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

MDShunk said:


> Ah, see I knew we'd get to the bottom of this. You're making a gigantic assumption, thinking this is the doctrine we all stand on. You see, I'm a thinking man. There are few written doctrines upon which I fully stand. There are many that are used for guidance, however. My worth and relevance as an electrician is not predicated upon the strictest observation of any particular document drafted by another group of men. I can understand the appeal, however. It makes going though life by letting a document think for you much easier than having independent thought.


Au _contraire_ monsieur MD, 90-4 offers plenty of _wiggle_ room, it's when one wished to dance the _macarena_ that i'll part company

~SIS~
:vs_cool:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> Au _contraire_ monsieur MD, 90-4 offers plenty of _wiggle_ room, it's when one wished to dance the _macarena_ that i'll part company
> 
> ~SIS~
> :vs_cool:


I know when I'm having a conversation with schizophrenic who talks in word salad and makes no actual point , so I'll go the other direction as well.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

Yes i get that a lot by sorts that can't_ handle _my points MD, thus the avatar

Look at the_ bright_ side, we'll get to relive this _entire _converstaion in a week or two

I'm sure ET sponsors will be high 5'in
:vs_cool:
~SIS~


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SISYPHUS said:


> Yes i get that a lot by sorts that can't_ handle _my points MD, thus the avatar


If effective communication is important to you, you should speak plainly.


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## SISYPHUS (Aug 13, 2018)

effective communication is _lost_ on those who refuse to _accept_ it 

which is also...._not_....._my_..._problem_

:vs_cool:

~SIS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh wow. I had no idea that 405 degrees would cause this much drama.

I guess I won’t bring up the #14 outlet pigtails I used on a 20A circuit :surprise:


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

:yawn::yawn::yawn:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> :yawn::yawn::yawn:


Did you ban Steven?

Was it his turn again?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Did you ban Steven?
> 
> Was it his turn again?


Huh? What? :vs_worry:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Oh wow. I had no idea that 405 degrees would cause this much drama.
> 
> I guess I won’t bring up the #14 outlet pigtails I used on a 20A circuit :surprise:


Kindred spirits man, kindred spirits.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> SISYPHUS said:
> 
> 
> > What part of 360 do you _not_ get here Hax?
> ...


because if those wires ever get pulled out and the new wire is AT the max capacity for the conduit, there might be a problem. 

360max 🙂

Are you really a licensed electrician?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> because if those wires ever get pulled out and the new wire is AT the max capacity for the conduit, there might be a problem.


 That is a design issue, something that the NEC specifically says it is not supposed to cover.

It is not my job to do something for future upgrade. If it was, then we would never be able to run cable again and we would have to run 4" conduit to every outlet.

I did what the customer wanted and paid for, and it is completely safe.


> Are you really a licensed electrician?


I am. You are not. 

You are way out of your league.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

HackWork said:


> 360max said:
> 
> 
> > because if those wires ever get pulled out and the new wire is AT the max capacity for the conduit, there might be a problem.
> ...


no, you installed a non code compliant installation. ‘Out of your league’, could be, I don’t work the residential league.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

360max said:


> no, you installed a non code compliant installation.


 I did. I know it's hard for you to understand simple things, but this entire thread has been about that exact point that you have just now realized.


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## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

Was this on the test? [emoji23] 
How much is your liability coverage?
What might not get you now, could bite you later. 

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CFCPWN said:


> Was this on the test? [emoji23]
> How much is your liability coverage?
> What might not get you now, could bite you later.
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Ok, you got me interested.

Tell me how having an extra 45 degrees of bend buried under the ground could realistically bite me later? Real world examples, not some fantasy.

To answer your question, my general liability coverage is $2,000,000.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

360max said:


> because if those wires ever get pulled out and the new wire is AT the max capacity for the conduit,* there might be a problem.*
> 
> 360max 🙂
> 
> Are you really a licensed electrician?


Kind of vague...I'm interested int he problem (other than pipe fill) that
you are talking about.

I'm always willing to learn.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

CFCPWN said:


> Was this on the test? [emoji23]
> How much is your liability coverage?
> What might not get you now, could bite you later.
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


:vs_wave: Hi. I'm Lighterup.
I sub for the banned people and right now , I'm a sub 
for MTW until he gets back. Sooooo....


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## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

When in doubt, if I was a short time or long time contractor, the investigations post-fire or disaster, looks for the weakest link in the chain.

Even if you're using existing, when it comes to bean counters looking at you later, they will forget the years of excellent service and non-issues, throw you under the bus without a second thought!


HackWork said:


> Ok, you got me interested.
> 
> Tell me how having an extra 45 degrees of bend buried under the ground could realistically bit me later?
> 
> To answer your question, my general liability coverage is $2,000,000.


Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I heard that U/G pipe was the leading cause of fires in North America this year.

I'll try to find the source :biggrin:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CFCPWN said:


> When in doubt, if I was a short time or long time contractor, the investigations post-fire or disaster, looks for the weakest link in the chain.
> 
> Even if you're using existing, when it comes to bean counters looking at you later, they will forget the years of excellent service and non-issues, throw you under the bus without a second thought!
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


This is fantasy. I could say what you just posted about *anything*. Using your logic, I shouldn't do any electrical work, or even leave the house.

I would like to see real world examples of someone pulling #6's into a 1" raceway with 45 degrees bend too much, and how it came to bite the installer on the ass.

IMO, I have more risk installing a duplex outlet. I am being serious. There is a better chance of something happening to that outlet and me being sued than in the instance of the pipe with a little too much bend.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> I heard that U/G pipe was the leading cause of fires in North America this year.
> 
> I'll try to find the source :biggrin:


:vs_laugh::biggrin:


When this is over I am going to tell 360max how I ordered black THHN for this run, and taped the ground and neutral with green and white tape.

The NEC says you can't do that for conductors smaller than #4's, so I broke another code! :sad:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I always get a kick out of conduit fill, because of my early days at a plant.

Conduit was full when the biggest guy there couldn't pull in another conductor :vs_laugh:

I should say 'guys', cause a team of horses is better than just one :biggrin:


I may or may not have used a Ford Escape to pull in cable to a few interconnect ducts as well.:devil3:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I always get a kick out of conduit fill, because of my early days at a plant.
> 
> Conduit was full when the biggest guy there couldn't pull in another conductor :vs_laugh:
> 
> ...


I used a tow motor to pull 3 CU 4/0's and one CU 2/0


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

lighterup said:


> I used a tow motor to pull 3 CU 4/0's and one CU 2/0


Did it start on fire ?

:biggrin:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Did it start on fire ?
> 
> :biggrin:


Nooo...not at alll..The tow motor was fine:biggrin:


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

lighterup said:


> I used a tow motor to pull 3 CU 4/0's and one CU 2/0


Used a ford f350 to pull in some underground last night. Not the way i would like to have installed the cables but in a case of a emergency repair sometimes you do what has to be done. (did use a short section of weak rope on the tow hitch as a early warning that something has got jammed or the 10 lazy arse people feeding the cable are taking a break)


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

-would it be right for inspector to fail it?
yes

-is it a safety, reliability or any other concern?
doesn't sound like it

a couple of things
-passing megger test does not mean wire is okay, especially testing wire in new dry pvc conduit, unless it filled up with water, you wouldn't have seen a problem with the wire.

-in a tricky situation were being under 360 is very impractical, i would go over 360. but these arbitrary requirements being brought up are actually points where i think i let the pride i have in what i do take over, i think i should be/try to be knowledgeable and skilled enough to comply with even the most arbitrary requirement and still get the job done quickly and without gross extra cost. i guess you could say i look at it as a challenge and i actually kind of like those requirements because of that, believe it or not. the code has to draw these arbitrary lines or else we would have even more tables in the book, like tables for how many bends in different types of situations, i vote 360, i think it is almost always doable. and sometimes 360 is too much, say a short run of large conduit filled normally.

-two large radius 90's are easier to pull than 4 normal radius 90's, so yah its arbitrary

-sounds like a heater may have reduced some bends


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## Wiresmith (Feb 9, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> I'll go over or stay way under it depending on the situation.
> 
> 
> I just did a pull of 3x #10s in 1" PVC 2 weeks ago, total length was just over 1,300'. I didn't go and measure all the angles but once you figured the couple fittings and then all the twists and turns it was probably 600 degrees. We didn't run the pipe I just got stuck pulling it. Cut in one C, sucked jet line then pulled mule tape and pulled all the way up.


was that for controls?

happen to check your voltage drop?


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

HackWork said:


> When glueing it together I squirted smurf jizz into the bends. It went nice and smooth.


*headslap* why did I never think of that. Just did a 1100' pull down a hill with the only bends about 180 degrees right at the bottom. I was pretty worried the cable was going to be dry by the time it got to the hard part.



MDShunk said:


> Sis- you know the history on the 360 degree rule and where it came from, right?


Is anyone ever going to enlighten us about the source for this restriction?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Gnome, before the slippery THHN was available I used to squirt some smurf jizz into the pipe every 50' or so on longer runs of any type (PVC, EMT, etc.).

It never hurts.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Gnome, before the slippery THHN was available I used to squirt some smurf jizz into the pipe every 50' or so on longer runs of any type (PVC, EMT, etc.).
> 
> *It never hurts.*


Everything is better with lube :biggrin:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Originally Posted by *MDShunk*  
_Sis- you know the history on the 360 degree rule and where it came from, right?_


How about telling us* @MDShunk* ?
Does it have to do with the insulation breaking down? TIA


*Q.* What is the maximum number of bends in a circular raceway?
*A.* This answer is found in each individual raceway Article of the Code. Basically, the maximum number of degrees between pull points is limited to 360° for non-flexible circular raceways. For example, 344.26 deals with rigid metal conduit and says: “To reduce the stress and friction on conductor insulation, the maximum number of bends (including offsets) between pull points cannot exceed 360°.”
https://www.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-quandaries-december-2010


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