# Neutrals at the switch



## dg1871 (Feb 5, 2012)

If I read it correctly and let me know 404.2(c) exception (2) states that if the switch is fishable then the neutral is not required? Need clarification, do not have the handbook.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Why would a neutral be required at any switch? (Unless it has a pilot light?)

O.K. Got it.. in the 2011 code.. I wonder is there is a logical reason for change?

Ever tried to find a motion detector that has a neutral? I have.. Never found one.. (Electronic ballasts do not like motion detectors)

http://community.cengage.com/Site/electrical/b/weblog/archive/2010/12/06/nec-section-404-2-c.aspx


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

dg1871 said:


> If I read it correctly and let me know 404.2(c) exception (2) states that if the switch is fishable then the neutral is not required? Need clarification, do not have the handbook.


*(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*​​​​Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.​
_Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on​one side.
_


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Why would a neutral be required at any switch? (Unless it has a pilot light?)


New code in the USA.


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Why would a neutral be required at any switch? (Unless it has a pilot light?)
> 
> O.K. Got it.. in the 2011 code.. I wonder is there is a logical reason for change?


One problem was people using the bare ground for a neutral when replacing the switch with thing like dimmers that need a neutral and pilot lights on switches.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Funny thing is.. I have been into every switch box in my house (1957) and have only encountered one that had a neutral.. As luck would have it I had to add a GFI to the switch after changing out the box to a two gang. (the existing outlet was in the light fixture over the sink) I know it's supposed to be a separate 20a circuit but hey... It's my house 

On a second note , the guys that built/wired this house did not allow for a outlet in the garage , so they came back later and added one using the ground for the neutral.. Gotta love the 50s..


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

_404.2 -
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.
Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.
Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting circuit to the switch location whether or not the conductors in the raceway are required to be increased in size to comply with 310.15(B (3)(a)._

_(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box __*through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same f*__*loor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished onone side. *
_ 
From what I read in residential you will need to provide a grounded conductor to the switches, unless you use tubing or conduit. 
The kicker is the phrase " Through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom ON THE SAME FLOOR LEVEL"
Going into the attic or basement and drilling into the wall is not on the same floor level nor is it a wall cavity that is open at the top or bottom.
You mainly see open wall cavities in commercial where the framing goes to the roof deck but the sheet rock stops just above the ceiling.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> From what I read in residential you will need to provide a grounded conductor to the switches, unless you use tubing or conduit.
> The kicker is the phrase " Through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom ON THE SAME FLOOR LEVEL"
> 
> Going into the attic or basement and drilling into the wall is not on the same floor level nor is it a wall cavity that is open at the top or bottom.
> You mainly see open wall cavities in commercial where the framing goes to the roof deck but the sheet rock stops just above the ceiling.


If the basement ceiling or attic floor is unfinished I think you can apply the exception.



> (2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, *or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side. *


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

You will be seeing occupancy sensors that require a neutral in the future!
The manufactures are going to stop using the equipment ground as a neutral.

Here is the commentary from the 2011 NEC Handbook following 404.2(C):

This section is new in the 2011 Code. Many electronic lighting control devices require standby current to maintain the ready state and detection capability of the device. This allows immediate switching of the load to the "on" condition. These devices require standby current when they are in the "off" state,that is,when there is no load current. Many of these devices utilize the equipment grounding conductor for the standby current flow. Prior to this requirement, a grounded conductor was not usually provided in the switch box for switches controlling lighting loads, so these control devices needed to utilize the equipment grounding conductor to conduct the standby current: UL 773A,_ Standard for Safety of Non-Industrial Photoelectric Switches for Lighting Control,_ To have a current of up to0.5mA on the equipment grounding conductor. In fact,a number of UL standards permit up to 0.5 mA ground leakage current as acknowledgment of an operational necessity.
This is allowed because the function of an occupancy sensor requires low level standby current. The standard permits this current on the equipment grounding conductor because in a typical installation there may be no grounded conductor in the switch box that can be used as the return conductor for the standby current. The exception allows two scenarios under which the grounded circuit conductor is not required. In the first scenario, the exception permits the conductor to be omitted in raceway installations where it is practical to add a conductor at the switch location in the future,if needed. The second scenario allows the conductor to be omitted where the construction of the framing cavity in which the switch is located permits access through which the conductor can be run in the future.


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## dg1871 (Feb 5, 2012)

Manchester thanks for the clarification with the handbook . That is what I was looking for


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

BBQ said:


> If the basement ceiling or attic floor is unfinished I think you can apply the exception.


Touche' !!
Thanks for being so quick with this too! I was hoping someone would jump on this.

I see a problem with the wording of the exception. The "on the same floor level" is open for interpretation. I was pointing out one interpretation.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> I see a problem with the wording of the exception. The "on the same floor level" is open for interpretation. I was pointing out one interpretation.


The "*or*" puts 'on the same floor level' out of play for all of this



> through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.


How would you go through a floor and be on the same level?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

jza said:


> New code in the USA.


It is not a new code for us in France we allready enforce it 3 years back.

There were few thread discussed on this.

The main issue as manchestersparky mention very clear is the standby current on the motion sensor or any other electronic devices and when you add engough motion sensor or other device there were few case that our main RCD breaker can trip from so many devices which we did ran into couple time.

The other issue with it is safety issue due if the supply to the motion sensor is engerized and when you take the device out of the junction box you loose the bonding ( if they don't have bonding conductor on the device itself ) you can actually get hit the line voltage from it.<I got bit before with them >

Merci,
Marc


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

From my experience the two wire motion detectors do NOT use the ground as a return as I have installed them in old houses that have no grounds and they work fine UNTIL the fixture gets replaced with a electronic ballast fixture.. (They still work but you go though lamps like crazy) Once again I have yet to find a motion switch that has a neutral (other than watt miser) and it would take years to recover that cost..


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

ceb58 said:


> One problem was people using the bare ground for a neutral when replacing the switch with thing like dimmers that need a neutral and pilot lights on switches.


That's a real time situation too!


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> If the basement ceiling or attic floor is unfinished I think you can apply the exception.


....so the only instance where this would apply in residential is a three story home or maybe garage area sw?


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

360max said:


> ....so the only instance where this would apply in residential is a three story home or maybe garage area sw?


 ...................


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

After running into many situations where I needed to install a motion switch, astronomical timer (without the battery), etc. and there was no neutral, I started ALWAYS running neutrals to switch boxes whether I needed one or not! (Before it was in the code.) Just made sense to allow for whatever the future brought! I have left many a dead-end switch box with a capped-off neutral in my wake!


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

Mass has an additional exception to this requirement . I don't have my code book in front of me for the exact wording but it addresses where multiple switches controlling the same load are then only one location would need a neutral present. You are Not required to carry the neutral to a dead ended three way for example. I find neutrals at switch locations very useful . They are great to add a general use receptacle or many types of wall box timers, pilot lights, motions,and most remote controlled dimmers or switches . That being said , I haven't needed a neutral at both three ways ,so for you guys that are being made to I would suggest that the code adopters in your area look at the Mass admendment an consider it for the next update. Neutrals in switch box yes , but no need to overkill it either.


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## SHOCKnAWE (Dec 25, 2011)

90.1 (b)


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

360max said:


> ....so the only instance where this would apply in residential is a three story home or maybe garage area sw?


It would apply to a single story if the basement ceiling or the attic floor is finished.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> It is not a new code for us in France we allready enforce it 3 years back.


I bet even the Canadians don't care..:laughing:


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