# Rejection tabs on tandem breakers



## HARRY304E

...............


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## Bkessler

I'am familiar with them. It cost 3x normal price for them.


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## btharmy

I'm not going to say I never removed a rejection tab from a tandem to install it in a panel. These tandems never had them to begin with. I have never seen this before. I thought all tandems had them. These breakers are new and un molested.


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## btharmy

Bkessler said:


> I'am familiar with them. It cost 3x normal price for them.


If that's the case, I must have got them by mistake because I'm pretty cheap.


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## FrunkSlammer

I feel like this is a dumb question, but I can't be the only one wondering.. what and where is the rejection tab?


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## btharmy

FrunkSlammer said:


> I feel like this is a dumb question, but I can't be the only one wondering.. what and where is the rejection tab?


 It blocks half of the clamping slot in the back of the breaker so it will only fit in the sections of buss with the notches in it. In a 16/24 panel for instance they will only fit in the bottom 4 spaces in the panel. I'll post a pic of one when I get home.


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## btharmy

This breaker has the tab in place.








It is an eaton/CH breaker. If it were a Siemens 
QT the tab would be covered by plastic.


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## FrunkSlammer

I haven't been around that much or long, but I've never seen a rejection tab before.

Wonder if it's a Canadian thing? Because that breaker you posted was CSA'd.


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## btharmy

FrunkSlammer said:


> I haven't been around that much or long, but I've never seen a rejection tab before. Wonder if it's a Canadian thing? Because that breaker you posted was CSA'd.


I have lived in Indiana my entire life. I'm not sure that I would have a Canadian only breaker in my stock. But I do end up with Canadian quarters in my pocket every now and then.


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## FrunkSlammer

I don't mean a Canadian only breaker, I just mean I've not come across the 16/24 siemens like you mentioned. Seems like our Siemens are 2/4, 4/8, 6/12, 8/16, 12/24, 32/64, 40/80...etc. No need for a rejection tab, the panel boards and loadcenters accept all tandems. 

I could be totally wrong on this though.. that happens a lot. :laughing:


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## btharmy

FrunkSlammer said:


> I don't mean a Canadian only breaker, I just mean I've not come across the 16/24 siemens like you mentioned. Seems like our Siemens are 2/4, 4/8, 6/12, 8/16, 12/24, 32/64, 40/80...etc. No need for a rejection tab, the panel boards and loadcenters accept all tandems. I could be totally wrong on this though.. that happens a lot. :laughing:


I live with 3 women, I've been told I was wrong a couple times myself.


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## 220/221

I have seen several manufacturers make them without the clip. 

The part number is slightly different and they cost a little more and they are not necessarily available everywhere. I've heard them referred to as "listed" breakers.


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## Bkessler

I never saw them till I moved to California and was introduced to the all in one panel. You typically learn about the rejection tab the hard way.


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## btharmy

I sure wish I knew where I got them. They sure come in handy in certain situations.


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## Bkessler

Home Depot has them here. CH panels have their own version of rejection tabs too. A bar going down the bus bars that has a special notched breaker that fits over it.


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## itsunclebill

The 1965 NEC had a new requirement that panels and breakers had to have a feature that limited the number of circuits that could be supplied by the panel. These "circuit total limitation" - (CTL) panels and breakers listed for them have "rejection tabs" to prevent tandem breakers from being installed on buss push on contacts where they aren't supposed to be. Most manufacturers use a notched buss and a tab on the breaker contact slot for the purpose and GE uses a tab on the wire terminal side of the breaker along with a slot in the breaker mounting rail - breakers won't fit where there's not a notch.

There are tandem breakers available for replacements in pre-1965 panels that don't have the rejection tabs and will consequently fit on most buss push on contacts and are restricted for use in "non CTL" type panels where hopefully the listed number of circuits hasn't been exceeded.

I don't find many electricians who know this stuff and never a homeowner not in the trade who did. It looks like the only thing manufacturers have done to discourage the use of non CTL breakers in CTL panels is price


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## electricmanscott

These have been around forever. They're the only kind I keep on the truck. :whistling2:


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## chicken steve

Siemens NC breakers , meaning Non-CTL are available ~CS~


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## drspec

these have been around for as long as Ive been in the trade but when I was a young cub no one made me aware of them

the boss would have us use a dremel tool and remove the rejection clip from a standard tandem breaker

he was the same one that taught me wrong and would have me install both wires from a mwbc on the same tandem

ah.....the memories of being improperly trained


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## Hack Work

What you are looking for is "Non-CTL" which is Circuit Total Limitation. They are against code to use in most situations, I forget the one situation in which you are able to use them.



Bkessler said:


> I'am familiar with them. It cost 3x normal price for them.


That's the thing, while Square D and some others are 2.5-3 times the price, the Murray's and Siemens are often only a few bucks more than the regular tandems.


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## Meadow

NON CTL, made for older panels.


Theses are cheater breakers, you can turn that little 40 space into an 80.


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## Meadow

:jester:


Hack Work said:


> What you are looking for is "*Non-CTL*" which is Circuit Total Limitation. They are against code to use in most situations, I forget the one situation in which you are able to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing, while Square D and some others are 2.5-3 times the price, the Murray's and Siemens are often only a few bucks more than the regular tandems.


"NON CTL" You beat me to it 
























:laughing::jester:


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## MTW

When are the manufacturers going to make a non-CTL tandem AFCI?


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## Meadow

MTW said:


> When are the manufacturers going to make a non-CTL tandem AFCI?


I think AFCIs have killed the 20/40 circuit days.


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## drsparky

The non reject tandems are readily available but would still be a violation of the listing. A 40 space, 30 circuit panel the bottom 10 were tandem ready and a 40 - 40 no tandems are allowed. The type of breaker that can go in the panel is on the label, just because it fits does not mean it is code compliant. 
Now that the code gods lifted the max number of cicuits in a panel you now see panels that are listed for more than 40 circuits, I don't know it they increased buss size or just did the math.
Bottom line is you need to follow the listing.


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## Hack Work

drsparky said:


> Bottom line is you need to follow the listing.


Bologna. I install cheater breakers and poop on listings.


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## drsparky

Hack Work said:


> Bologna. I install cheater breakers and poop on listings.


Pooping on the listing is a violation of the listing.:jester:


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## rewire

Hack Work said:


> Bologna. I install cheater breakers and poop on listings.


how many actually look up listings ?


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## Hack Work

rewire said:


> how many actually look up listings ?


I will often read instructions and follow the ones that suit my needs. But as far as the UL whitebook that the Mike Holt forum people always talk about, I've never opened it, and never will.


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## drspec

rewire said:


> how many actually look up listings ?


whats a listing? :jester:


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## drsparky

rewire said:


> how many actually look up listings ?


All you have to do is read that little piece of paper glued to the inside of the panel door just above the panel schedule.


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## Aegis

To be honest I've never heard of a rejection tab. I've been able to put a siemens and CH tandem anywhere in the panel (where a normal breakers are supposed to go), so I'm not really following what's going on.


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## btharmy

Aegis said:


> To be honest I've never heard of a rejection tab. I've been able to put a siemens and CH tandem anywhere in the panel (where a normal breakers are supposed to go), so I'm not really following what's going on.


 The buss that allows tandem breakers has notches like this:








The difference between standard breakers that will fit anywhere and tandems with the tab that will only fit where there is a notch:








What some people do when the panel is not rated for tandems ( no notches in the buss) is break out the tab:








The other (non compliant ) alternative is to use a tandem with no tab, which is not listed for panels with circuit limitations, but does not require actually damaging the breaker to install it:


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## Aegis

Thanks  Has this only been for single phase panels only?


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## 480sparky

Aegis said:


> To be honest I've never heard of a rejection tab. I've been able to put a siemens and CH tandem anywhere in the panel (where a normal breakers are supposed to go), so I'm not really following what's going on.



Panels are rated both in spaces and in total circuits. A 20-20 panel can have 20 breakers installed in 20 spaces. A 20-30 panel has 20 1" spaces, and can accept 10 tandems. 20-40, 20 spaces, 40 circuits (20 tandems).


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## Deep Cover

Why would it matter to the listing if tandems are installed? The buss fingers are rated for a certain amperage, as long as you didn't exceed that rating, why would UL or panel manufacturers care where or how many tandems are installed?


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## btharmy

Aegis said:


> Thanks  Has this only been for single phase panels only?


 I think I have seen some Siemens 3 phase panels with the same features. They accept either QP standard breakers or QT tandems where the slotted buss is (a specific number of spaces at the bottom of the panel). 480's post outlines how to determine what is allowed. The panel schedule will also have single lines to label the standard spaces and double lines for the spaces that allow tandems. That is another clue to determine which spaces have notches in the buss if the panel is full and you can't visually see the buss.


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## 480sparky

Sometimes the model number is a clue. If part of the model number has 2020, 3030 or 4040 in it, the panel won't accept tandems, while 2030, 2030, 2040 and 3040 would.


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## Aegis

I've always got panels that are 32/64, 40/80 etc which allow all the slots to have tandems, are these 20/30 panels cheaper?


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## 480sparky

No idea, as I've never bought Canadian panels.


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## btharmy

480sparky said:


> No idea, as I've never bought Canadian panels.


 I've got some Canadian quarters if that would help.


I found a Siemens 30/40 panel documentation showing the spaces that allow standard breakers as single taps and tandems as double taps off of the buss.


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## Shockdoc

meadow said:


> I think AFCIs have killed the 20/40 circuit days.


Depends who it is, I still use 32/40 panels for upgrades and new builds. once the underwriting is obtained, there is no afci s getting installed. I put a 20/40 in this week as a "charity" job to a friend who is somewhat of a slumlord. It took the place of a40 ckt panel 3/4 full. The 20/40 panel was free.


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## Hack Work

Deep Cover said:


> Why would it matter to the listing if tandems are installed? The buss fingers are rated for a certain amperage, as long as you didn't exceed that rating, why would UL or panel manufacturers care where or how many tandems are installed?


Too many wires in that size panel. Not enough neutral spaces. It simply wasn't tested that way. Could be many reasons.


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## Hmacanada

I've never heard of this either ... Good day, I learned something new !
Only thing we have is don't use different brand breakers than the panel. If it's c/h that's all you can put in there.


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## Deep Cover

Hack Work said:


> *Too many wires in that size panel. Not enough neutral spaces.* It simply wasn't tested that way. Could be many reasons.


I don't buy the bolded reasons. There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel. You can bring in as many as you want (pretty much) and pigtail to full sized breakers.

The underlined reason you give is the only one I can think of other than because the NEC used to restrict the number of breaker spaces to 42.

There had to be a monetary reason.


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## Hack Work

Deep Cover said:


> I don't buy the bolded reasons. There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel.


 How do you know what it takes to get a listing?


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## btharmy

Deep Cover said:


> I don't buy the bolded reasons. There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel. You can bring in as many as you want (pretty much) and pigtail to full sized breakers.
> 
> The underlined reason you give is the only one I can think of other than because the NEC used to restrict the number of breaker spaces to 42.
> 
> There had to be a monetary reason.


I have seen the neutral bar only have enough spaces for the allowed breaker spaces. In this case, if you put more tandems than allowed by the listing, there are not enough holes to terminate all of the neutrals without doubling up to make them fit. We all know that is a no-no.


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## Deep Cover

Hack Work said:


> How do you know what it takes to get a listing?


I don't...that's why I asked the question. I don't do much resi anymore, but I'll be on the look out for number of possible neutral connections vs number of tandems allowed. I'd be willing to bet that there is no correlation.


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## FrunkSlammer

Hmacanada said:


> I've never heard of this either ... Good day, I learned something new !


Must be a 'Murican thang. 

Cool to learn the subtle differences between the countries in methods and more often, materials.


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## Deep Cover

btharmy said:


> I have seen the neutral bar only have enough spaces for the allowed breaker spaces. In this case, if you put more tandems than allowed by the listing, there are not enough holes to terminate all of the neutrals without doubling up to make them fit. We all know that is a no-no.


May be a cost cutting measure too. Before the 2008 handle ties were not required for MWBC's so one could create MWBC's by pig tailing in the panel and still have enough spaces to fill the panel with tandems.


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## Hack Work

Deep Cover said:


> I don't...


Exactly. You said "There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel." But in reality you don't have a clue what rules or guidelines the listing agent uses.


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## guest

Deep Cover said:


> I don't buy the bolded reasons. *There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel. You can bring in as many as you want (pretty much)* and pigtail to full sized breakers.
> 
> The underlined reason you give is the only one I can think of other than because the NEC used to restrict the number of breaker spaces to 42.
> 
> There had to be a monetary reason.



Bzzzztttt! Wrong answer. 

There are Code restrictions which will limit the amount of conductors in a panel..a little thing called "wire fill." :whistling2::laughing::laughing:


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## Deep Cover

Hack Work said:


> Exactly. You said "There is no restricting the amount of conductors in a panel." But in reality you don't have a clue what rules or guidelines the listing agent uses.


Show me where in the panel's spec sheets it limits the number of conductors that enter the panel. The only thing that limits it would be a standard box fill calculation.


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## Deep Cover

mxslick said:


> Bzzzztttt! Wrong answer.
> 
> There are Code restrictions which will limit the amount of conductors in a panel..a little thing called "wire fill." :whistling2::laughing::laughing:


Which is why I put "pretty much" in parenthesis.


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## MHElectric

electricmanscott said:


> These have been around forever. They're the only kind I keep on the truck. :whistling2:





meadow said:


> Theses are cheater breakers, you can turn that little 40 space into an 80.


Cheater breakers :thumbsup: Any decent electrician keeps a few of them on the truck. These are a must for cash-only jobs, and in-a-pinch jams.


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## Hack Work

Deep Cover said:


> Show me where in the panel's spec sheets it limits the number of conductors that enter the panel. The only thing that limits it would be a standard box fill calculation.


I never said the panel's specs sheet limits the amount of conductors.

Again, you don't know what the listing agent goes by, they may have rules or guidelines as to how many conductors a panel of a certain size can have.


You asked:


Deep Cover said:


> Why would it matter to the listing if tandems are installed?


I gave a few possible reasons including this:



Hack Work said:


> Too many wires in that size panel. ~


The listing might limit tandem breakers because by using tandems you are using considerably more wires in the panel which make it tight and hard to work in or increase the chance of getting a wire caught behind a screw or the panel cover or many other reasons. You don't know what rules or guidelines the listing agent goes by. There may be a conductor limit for every cubic inch of panel space for all you know.

Whether the final installation instructions say that conductors are limited or not doesn't change this.


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## dronai

MHElectric said:


> Cheater breakers :thumbsup: Any decent electrician keeps a few of them on the truck. These are a must for cash-only jobs, and in-a-pinch jams.


 In the past I've had to make a few.


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## micromind

dronai said:


> In the past I've had to make a few.


Same here. Sometimes there's just no other reasonable way.


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## Shockdoc

micromind said:


> Same here. Sometimes there's just no other reasonable way.


I came across a few panels lately with rejection inserts on the claws. Murray and ite. I was able to bash the whole assembly out with a hammer and screwdriver.


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## Shockdoc

Shockdoc said:


> I came across a few panels lately with rejection inserts on the claws. Murray and ite. I was able to bash the whole assembly out with a hammer and screwdriver.


Homeline has a small tab off aluminum at the bottom of the stab thar rejects brands other than it's own and Murray. By snipping the tab off any brand will fit a homeline panel of your in a bind. I still remember a penna inspector who got all mad at me for doing it with ge breakers.


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## MHElectric

Shockdoc said:


> Homeline has a small tab off aluminum at the bottom of the stab thar rejects brands other than it's own and Murray. By snipping the tab off any brand will fit a homeline panel of your in a bind. I still remember a penna inspector who got all mad at me for doing it with ge breakers.


If you dont rig something up every now and again, you aren't getting much done. :laughing:


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## btharmy

Shockdoc said:


> I was able to bash the whole assembly out with a hammer and screwdriver.


Not necessarily what I like to associate with installing a breaker but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to get it done I guess.


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## Shockdoc

btharmy said:


> Not necessarily what I like to associate with installing a breaker but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to get it done I guess.


I can't help giggling doing this as the homeowner looks on.


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