# When grounding etc..



## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

If I have 3 pipes coming into a 12 x 12 box 9 circuits. 1 ground in each pipe. 3 pipes leaving 1 ground in each pipe. If I pass 1 ground through 1 grounding bushing then around the ground bond screw in box then wire nuted to 1 ground leaving , then wire nute 1 incoming ground to 1 out going ground and once again with the last ground. Have I done what I was suppoed to or is it better have put a ground bus or wire them all together

learning to learn


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

What voltage are you dealing with?? You generally do not need grounding bushings unless these are service conductors. Just tie all the grounds together and connect it to the box with a pigtail.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

All 120 v. I didnt see a real reason for the bushing either but I was told to. I personally opted not to tie them all together because I believe its better not to. I have tested a ground that was not spliced by arching the box I connecred it to and it didnt make a sound or leave a mark. I did the same with a ground tied together in j boxes and it took but only a split sec longer to trip and burnt the box. Having said all that ir seemed piontless to cut any ground except the one sized to protect the box. Am I making sense or seeing it wrong. 

learning to learn


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Are you using IMC or RIGID with locknuts?


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

zen said:


> If I have 3 pipes coming into a 12 x 12 box 9 circuits. 1 ground in each pipe. 3 pipes leaving 1 ground in each pipe. If I pass 1 ground through 1 grounding bushing then around the ground bond screw in box then wire nuted to 1 ground leaving , then wire nute 1 incoming ground to 1 out going ground and once again with the last ground. Have I done what I was suppoed to or is it better have put a ground bus or wire them all together learning to learn


 In this situation I bond the box with the largest ground present and pull the rest straight through. Code allows for either way.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

3/4 emt w/ set screw connectors, steel locknuts. 12×12 indoor j box all holes drilled with hole saw

learning to learn


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## AK_sparky (Aug 13, 2013)

I usually wire them altogether, but I can't think of a reason you can't do it your way, as long as you bond with the largest bond required based on largest current carrying conductor.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

. .


> 250.148 continuity and attachment of equipment
> grounding conductors to boxes. Where circuit conductors
> are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment
> within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(
> ...


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

zen said:


> All 120 v. I didnt see a real reason for the bushing either but I was told to. I personally opted not to tie them all together because I believe its better not to.* I have tested a ground that was not spliced by arching the box I connecred it to and it didnt make a sound or leave a mark.* I did the same with a ground tied together in j boxes and it took but only a split sec longer to trip and burnt the box. Having said all that ir seemed piontless to cut any ground except the one sized to protect the box. Am I making sense or seeing it wrong.
> 
> learning to learn


I don't believe I've ever seen that done.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

zen said:


> I have tested a ground that was not spliced by arching the box I connecred it to and it didnt make a sound or leave a mark.


Am I reading this right? You touched a ground wire to a metal box and expected to see sparks? :001_huh:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

One box had been grounded by grounds that had been spliced in a large j box as well as in the outlet boxes. I touched a hot to that box and it sparked and left a black mark. Then I touched a hot to a box that the ground for it was unspliced. It trip the instant I touched it and left no mark. So I figured why make up so many grounds up in the j boxes. All the j box needs is the correct ground to protect it. This seems to take less time less blue wirenuts that always too many wires in them .I believe it saves time and money and I dont have to deal with being told to put a ground bus in a j box and cutting a ground for thats better off uncut.

learning to learn


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Plus as the code above states. If I have to work on that circuit in a j box my ground is isolated to what I m working on. Seems safer. When all the grounds are made up together you would have to kill every circuit just to add a ground or remove one from that blue wirenut with 18 grounds in it

learning to learn


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Where is your j-man?
Never intentionally short out a curcuit. You can damage the breaker and your face in the process.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

He was there there was no load on anykubd on the whole service and if that would cause that type if explosion no body anywhere at any time would be able to work on anythinf hot.

learning to learn


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

If it was realustic that this could damage a breaker we would be required to replace every bresker that gets tripped

learning to learn


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

zen said:


> If it was realustic that this could damage a breaker we would be required to replace every bresker that gets tripped
> 
> learning to learn


Breakers are only designed to clear like two faults at their rated interrupting current. After that all bets are off, you're on borrowed time.


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

zen said:


> If it was realustic that this could damage a breaker we would be required to replace every bresker that gets tripped
> 
> learning to learn


As you get older you may find that the way you want the world to be and the way it actually is diverge drasticaly.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

For what its worth I understand what youre are saying . This was a empty lease space under supervision. My point was it seem that the less joints made with grounds in a branch circuit where there are multiple circuts, the better the fault protection is and its safer because you dont need to undo all the grounds just to work on each circuit. 

learning to learn


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> All 120 v. I didnt see a real reason for the bushing either but I was told to. I personally opted not to tie them all together because I believe its better not to. I have tested a ground that was not spliced by *arching* the box I connecred it to and it didnt make a sound or leave a mark. I did the same with a ground tied together in j boxes and it took but only a split sec longer to trip and burnt the box. Having said all that ir seemed piontless to cut any ground except the one sized to protect the box. Am I making sense or seeing it wrong.
> 
> learning to learn



The term is ARCING, not ARC*H*ING


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks

learning to learn


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

zen said:


> If it was realustic that this could damage a breaker we would be required to replace every bresker that gets tripped
> 
> learning to learn


Zen

When I was a younger man I recall my journeyman telling me that to identify the circuit I wanted to shut off all I had to do was jam the hot wire into the back of the box. The correct breaker will trip and you will know hte circuit. Problem was the main breaker was faster and the entire office went dark. My boss got a bill for around $5000.00 for lost production of the several hundred office workers for the 10 minutes it took to reset the main breaker.

If by chance you push the hot on the box at the exact moment the ac sign wave crosses 0 volts there won't be any burn marks and if you do it at the exact moment the AC crosses the peak voltage the black mark is assured. The raceway will carry at least 1/2 of the fault current and the bond wires up to %50 of the fault current regardless of their resistance.

Now it is 35 years later and frankly if I saw any electrical worker use the bonding system to trip the breaker I would see to have his licence suspended because he is trying to start a fire, kill someone, and damage the breakers. Yes breakers are there to provide protection against accidental faults and not to be exercised as every fault diminishes the breeakers ability to operate within spec. the fault current stresses do shorten the life of a breaker and no they are not deisgned to do this regularily. Do you know that the first fault on a EMT raceway system often blows hot metal at every loose or poor connection? What if that emt runs through some material that is easily ignited? You figure put the circut but the sawdust resting on the surface of the pipe catches fire because the connector was spot welding from the fault current.

Hot work! it is illegal and a code violation here. If you are working hot you better be able to demonstrate turning it off would create a hazard. You know turning off the oxygen machine in a hospital for example.

So perhaps you are older and been doing it that way for years because hey that is the way we always did it? If this is a description of you may I suggest you need to stop. These cowboy methods are regulary costing our customers a lot of money and killing our co workers.

In the USA there is 1 person every day killed by electricity, Usually the mechanism of death is burns caused by electrical contact or arc blast. Many of these workers caused their own death but what scares me is it isn't just the carpenters and plumbers getting killed. a lot of these deaths are persons trained to recognize the hazard.

Please unlearn this stuff you are so cavalier about. someday and somewhere you are going to do one of these dumbass things in a place where the breaker contacts were welded by the last clown. or you are working on a circuit with higher fault currents than the OC protection can innterupt because the last guys though a code fuse works just as well as a HRC fuse or the main breaker is rated to interrupt 10,000 amps but the avaialble fault current is 25,000 or more amps.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Awesome reply mshea


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> Thanks
> 
> learning to learn


It is a pet peeve of mine, I am not a very good speller and a lousy typist I make plenty of errors in my post but this and LIGHTING in lieu of LIGHT*N*ING and a few others.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> If it was realustic that this could damage a breaker we would be required to replace every bresker that gets tripped
> 
> learning to learn


You need to do some research as you are MOSTLY incorrect in your assumption.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

zen said:


> I personally opted not to tie them all together because I believe its better not to.


Why do you believe this? :blink:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Why do you believe this? :blink:


Ground is Ground and they should be at the same potential, I believe it would be better to tie them all together.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

First off as I said before this was a empty lease space we put the wire the j box and the breaker in it and no not now not then and not in the future would I ever go into any buisness and trip anything for a dumb ass reason. Now what was worth reading about what you said is that depending where the sign wave will determine if it arcs or not. This I learned from you. Now as far as breakers go we would still be using fuses if breakers couldnt be tripped and reset. Do I think its a good idea to do no no more the guy who stands around talking clicking a breaker off and on. But its my breaker. As far as putting all the grounds together or not. I ask because the less unnecessary joints the better as well as less work. So for all the post on how wrong this was I understand everything your saying but I think my post was pushed way down the " this guy went in a building full of people and equipment, that was existing started shorting out live circuts to grounds that protected equipment everywhere just cause he wanted to see if it would spark" for those who see it this way. Thanks for the input anyway

learning to learn


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

zen said:


> First off as I said before this was a empty lease space we put the wire the j box and the breaker in it and no not now not then and not in the future would I ever go into any buisness and trip anything for a dumb ass reason. Now what was worth reading about what you said is that depending where the sign wave will determine if it arcs or not. This I learned from you. Now as far as breakers go we would still be using fuses if breakers couldnt be tripped and reset. Do I think its a good idea to do no no more the guy who stands around talking clicking a breaker off and on. But its my breaker. As far as putting all the grounds together or not. I ask because the less unnecessary joints the better as well as less work. So for all the post on how wrong this was I understand everything your saying but I think my post was pushed way down the " this guy went in a building full of people and equipment, that was existing started shorting out live circuts to grounds that protected equipment everywhere just cause he wanted to see if it would spark" for those who see it this way. Thanks for the input anyway
> 
> learning to learn


Easy there we all had to learn somehow.
try not to be so defensive and you'll learn faster. Remember your username.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Ultrafault said:


> Easy there we all had to learn somehow.
> try not to be so defensive and you'll learn faster.


:thumbsup:


> Remember your username.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> First off as I said before this was a empty lease space we put the wire the j box and the breaker in it and no not now not then and not in the future would I ever go into any buisness and trip anything for a dumb ass reason. Now what was worth reading about what you said is that depending where the sign wave will determine if it arcs or not. This I learned from you. *Now as far as breakers go we would still be using fuses if breakers couldnt be tripped and reset. *
> learning to learn


Read young man read, DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS based on limited reading and experience.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks . Ill get to doing more reading and let time take care of some of it too

learning to learn


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

When I was an apprentice, my J man told me to id the circuit by shorting to the metal box. Place was an old commercial building. The breaker was an ancient bulldog pushmatic, and didn't trip ! The wire sparked, and shot a piece of hot copper into my eye !!

Same guy pulled my fingers into the j box on a wire pull and cut the crap out of my hand. I asked to be assigned with someone else.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

zen said:


> ...Now as far as breakers go we would still be using fuses if breakers couldnt be tripped and reset....


We still do use fuses. All over the place.

The point isn't that breakers can't be tripped and reset. The point is that they can't be tripped at their maximum interrupting rating and reset more than a few times _and still be trusted to be reliable in the future_.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Thank u sir. I do understand what ur saying .these breakers and circuits were all removed for a demo. . Most of my arguing was due to those trying to turn my original question into a train wreck. All unnecessary. 

learning to learn


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> Thank u sir. I do understand what ur saying .these breakers and circuits were all removed for a demo. . Most of my arguing was due to those trying to turn my original question into a train wreck. All unnecessary.
> 
> *learning to learn*


I think your attitude places you ahead of many and you are attempting to get ahead, says a lot!

A good place to start

http://esh-docdb.fnal.gov/cgi-bin/R...e=NEMA_Breaker_Maintenance-2009.pdf;version=1

http://www.nema.org/standards/Pages/Molded-Case-Circuit-Breakers-and-Their-Application.aspx


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

That neans alot coming from a bad electrician. So whats the purpose of a isolated ground. If they are all at the same potential. 

learning to learn


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

zen said:


> That neans alot coming from a bad electrician. So whats the purpose of a isolated ground. If they are all at the same potential. learning to learn


helps data guys and engineers sleep better at night. bout all i can figure.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

I try to do good electrical work as well as save my co money with better methods and or less labor. I dont have as much time for reading up on things. Anything you guys say that helps means alot to me and my company. 

learning to learn


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

zen said:


> That neans alot coming from a bad electrician. So whats the purpose of a isolated ground. If they are all at the same potential.
> 
> learning to learn


As best I know, and why it is still utilized. An electrician made a mistake in wiring (probably at a Ma Bell or IBM facility, which is why it grained ground), he grounded a neutral downstream from the main neutral ground bond, either accidentally or intentionally. They found lifting the EGC-Equipment Grounding Conductor resolved the issue with the equipment. They assumed a bad ground picking up "NOISE" (ground current) from equipment, in lieu of the real issue the illegally "grounded neutral". They installed a separate EGC problem, this resolved the problem and the idea caught on. It was a Band-Aid covering a booboo, not a fix of thee real problem.

I have also been told in the old days (like 1980-1990 of COAX cable with computer systems fed off separate transformers there were some current leakage issues from the equipment. And this resulted in circulating ground currents. I have no documentation to back this up.

Now if an engineer designs a system and it isn't IG those NOT IN THE KNOW question his ability to design a reliable system. And if there are PQ issues he will have to circulate his resume.

All of this because no one wants to Megger n(insulation resistance test) the neutrals after installing.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Nice. .I have worked with many people who say it has to be done a certain way and they dont know why. That includes me. Thats what I work on changing about me.. someone told me ig grounds were better and I did test that I thought proved it and was wrong the whole time

learning to learn


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