# Hot work



## 277boy (Feb 25, 2015)

I routinely see in general, the statement of live work being only acceptable in a hospital or other location in which shutting down becomes more hazardous than not. The question that always comes into my mind when seeing this is if shutting down is hazardous why does live work make sense? 

Would it not be better to have a planned shutdown then a unplanned shutdown caused by a mistake during live work that also would likely cause damage making re-energization of the system difficult or impossible without repairs?

Curious as to the reasoning and if I'm missing something?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

277boy said:


> I routinely see in general, the statement of live work being only acceptable in a hospital or other location in which shutting down becomes more hazardous than not. The question that always comes into my mind when seeing this is if shutting down is hazardous why does live work make sense?
> 
> Would it not be better to have a planned shutdown then a unplanned shutdown caused by a mistake during live work that also would likely cause damage making re-energization of the system difficult or impossible without repairs?
> 
> Curious as to the reasoning and if I'm missing something?


How often is that mistake during live work that causes a shutdown made? Once out of 100,000 times? A planned shutdown in all those instances would mean that you have 99,999 unnecessary shut downs.


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## 277boy (Feb 25, 2015)

I geuss that's sort of my point, I don't see how the risk of a shutdown makes a justification as there's still a risk of a shutdowm if done live, albeit small. But if it is an argument as to the difficulty/inconvenience of a shutdown that makes more more sense to me. 

I'm not trying to make a particular opinion as to whether or not live work should be done, just that I don't understand the common justification.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You’re right, a planned maintenance shutdown is best but there are times when something unexpected happens and live work may be deemed necessary. In a hospital setting, there will be documented policies and procedures. Keep in mind that written procedures and PPE don’t remove the risk, they only lessen it, and a worker has the right to refuse.

There are few scenarios where live work is necessary. Even troubleshooting with a multimeter requires care and attention. Most live work is done because of laziness or to prevent inconvenience, which aren’t very good reasons.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

It’s better if someone stays at home in the woods. No chance of a car accident.

...

I get this same question/reasoning from my supervisors, who understand little about power to begin with. I, personally, don’t feel much of a risk in most instances with 208/120 because I know what’s up...but...since they have a much higher fear factor, they label it “safety” and want written procedures for the simplest things, which are then no safety issue at all...because power is removed. 

I asked one supervisor a while back, how do you even justify putting a key into a high voltage system, igniting gasoline into a continuous system of explosions, then drive that down the road where the slightest mistake could kill you and your entire family. You don’t even have a written procedure for that!

You just go about It all willy-nilly because you’ve done it before, and you say you do it all of the time. It’s inherently unsafe to drive a vehicle with thousands of other people who feel that they know exactly what they are doing.

How do people even make it into work in the morning if they cannot understand simple electrical work?

They should just stay home.


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## 277boy (Feb 25, 2015)

I asked one supervisor a while back said:


> And that is something else I've considered, we all drive which is undeniably dangerous, yet seems in the work place go toward an extreme level of safety.
> 
> I agree, at a curtain point nothing would get done and trade offs need to be made.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Most of the dangerous live line work is done by poco.

They are replacing 2 miles of poles near a site i work at. They have moved all the phase wires to the side of the original posts live. They then drove in new post and are now stringing new lines (these post are about 6 ' taller so they can not move the original lines back. 
This job has taken about a month so far and will probably last another week. Now if they put all there crews on this and did it dead then its probably a 3 day job but that means a hospital on the line has to run on there back up system for 3 days. 
(also means hundred of homes and businesses will be on generator which will lead to a few people getting hurt or killed) 
There is never a good reason to work it live. Thankfully they still do it.


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## 277boy (Feb 25, 2015)

You know, I don't have anything to back it up with but often think in a way more dangerous work ends up being safer. As in if you are doing live line work you are going to 100% follow safety protocols as the results of a mistake will be fatal. Where as with 120 most are much more lax even though death is a very real possibility but not as guaranteed.

Same sort of thing as aviation vs driving.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Working hot is situationally dependent. With flash suits, hot gloves, rubber blankets, lead boots, etc. and planning, and working space, some hot work can be somewhat safely done. There are cases when it's absolutely nutz to attempt. Depends on the situation. According to OSHA, any hot work is a big no-no.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I bought an arc flash suit for one job. I haven’t used it since but I do pull out the gloves and use them. They’re okay once you get used to them.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

The problem with this job is we get use to risk and complacent. After 10 years most of us are on auto-pilot.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

joebanana said:


> Working hot is situationally dependent. With flash suits, hot gloves, rubber blankets, lead boots, etc. and planning, and working space, some hot work can be somewhat safely done. There are cases when it's absolutely nutz to attempt. Depends on the situation. According to OSHA, any hot work is a big no-no.


Lead Boots :001_huh:


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

You can’t not work live.

First thing after LOTO OSHA says we have to treat it as live until we test it (test before touch). And tics aren’t acceptable under 1000 V. So that makes it live work even though 99.9% of the time it tests dead. The actual LOTO procedure itself is live work. So you can’t work dead only unless everything is generator fed. If you can’t work live you can’t do LOTO correctly.

Second is how do you do troubleshooting and startup? I can do a lot with an ohm meter but at some point I have to measure volts and amps. I can’t do this on a dead system. It’s live work. That’s why 70E and OSHA exclude troubleshooting and startups from the work permit requirement...because we’d have to get permits constantly for no good reason and we’d just pencil whip them process. I do as much as I can dead but at some point I have to energize to finish testing in most cases.

Third is batteries. My youngest daughter is very good at ensuring that a battery is dead by not plugging stuff in to charge but that’s not typical for mist people. If you work around 60 cell substation batteries at all you know that the idea of not working live is laughable at best. They come brand new about 80% charged.

I’ve had my share of close calls. Every one ends up being something was not what we expected/assumed it was. Like wrong labels, things rigged/disabled, water/oil, stuff chafed/rusted out/broken. It happens far more than most of the incidents they teach about in the training classes.

What I don’t need is people scared of their own shadows doing live work, and no cowboy linemen either. It takes a steady methodical approach where you check then double check everything every time and knowing when something doesn’t seem right. And not losing your head and taking the same approach when it isn’t right.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Most importantly, NEVER trust your safety to someone else. YOU take whatever steps that will ensure you go home at night, regardless of what safety protocalls are in place.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

One downside of all the 'No Hot Work' is a loss of ability to work stuff hot when there's no other viable choice. This means that everyone who works stuff hot is out of practice......far more hazardous than someone who routinely works hot.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

dronai said:


> Lead Boots :001_huh:


Ya know, the silicon tubes you slide over motor leads for rotation check, before you tape them all up.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

joe-nwt said:


> Most importantly, NEVER trust your safety to someone else. YOU take whatever steps that will ensure you go home at night, regardless of what safety protocalls are in place.


Good advice, reminds me of the scenario, "is the breaker off"...........yeah......"you sure"........YEAH............BA-ZAP.:vs_mad:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

"Slim" -- the 1937 film about the IBEW and line work is must viewing for all electricians.

It stars Henry Fonda in the title role, Hugh O'Brien is his mentor.... He was a master of hot work.


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