# Ever heard of Non-Union Apprenticeship Like This Before?



## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

I saw a job ad on craigslist for an electrician's helper, that basically said, no experience required. Training provided.

So when I saw this craigslist ad, which is for Charlotte, NC, I had no idea what it was about, what's the catch, if there is a catch, was it union, or non-union, etc. Most of the job ads I have seen say that electrical helpers must have at least 1 year of experience, which for someone that doesn't have experience is a bit discouraging. So with it being basically the only ad I could find where having no experience was okay, I called and got directions to come in, fill out an application, and sit for an interview. It turns out this was a construction staffing company. Being new to the trade, I didn't realize there were staffing companies for construction companies, but I guess if there are staffing companies for everything else, that it would make sense that there are ones for construction as well.

Anyway, as I am filling out an application on one of the computers they have out in a waiting area for applicants, a manager comes out, and asks me what I am there for. I tell him that I am interested in becoming an electrician, and as soon as I said that, the manager became really excited, and as he was talking to me, I almost felt like he was trying to sell me on something I had already decided that I was interested in doing. That struck me as being a little bit odd.

He told me I can start out as a helper and make $12/hr, then in 4 months, move up to $16 /hr, and after the first year $20/hr. After two years, he said it is possible I could be making up to $30/hr. I was a bit skeptical of this when he first told me because I thought it took longer than that to become an electrician and reach that level of pay. But according to him, this could be done by first going through a 1 week training class provided by them, consisting of OSHA from 8AM to 10AM, and electrical training from 10AM to 4PM, Monday through Friday, at which there would be a test to pass at the end. Major parts of the training included bending conduit, pulling wire, and wiring switches, along with an overview of the different tools, and parts used in the trade for different things with some hands on learning. And I would be provided with some basic tools to start me out with. After that, I would be placed on a work site working 60 hours a week and taking online classes at the local community college for the next 2 years, in which they would help pay for, to get an north carolina electrical license that would supposedly allow me to move from a starting wage of $12/hr as a helper to $30/hr as an electrician. 

Now has anyone ever heard of this before? Because I've never heard of it before, and haven't found any other company that offers the same thing in looking at job ads for electrical helpers. So I'm wondering was what I was told legit, and if it was, are there any other companies that offer the same thing?

*Note:* I tried to post a link to the craigslist ad, and staffing company's website for anyone interested in taking a closer look at it, and giving me their opinion on it, but apparently people with fewer than 20 posts are not allowed to post links. So I couldn't do that.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is probably legit. Those companies usually get paid for finding workers. There is probably a big commercial job were they need a lot of helpers. Not the greatest learning experience and you can bet you will probably be dropped once the job is over.

I could be wrong but that is my guess


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

If they are willing to pay for some of the classes check for strings attached, such as staying for x number of years after completion. If not and you can live with the $12-16 an hour go for it. It is experience after all.


Cowboy


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is probably legit. Those companies usually get paid for finding workers. There is probably a big commercial job were they need a lot of helpers. Not the greatest learning experience and you can bet you will probably be dropped once the job is over.
> 
> I could be wrong but that is my guess


It was my impression that they were probably legit too because everything about them seemed professional to me. They didn't seem like some fly by night company to me. The hiring manager said that he has hundreds of electricians working for him on sites in Charlotte, NC, like hospitals, schools, and hotels with years worth of work. What struck as being odd about it was the pay scale because I did not know it is possible to go from being a helper with no experience at $12/hr to making $20 to $24/hr in just a year.

When I consider my other option, which is to try to get an apprenticeship with the Charlotte, NC IBEW Local, it looks like it would take almost 4 years to make about the same amount of money with them when I look at their pay scale. So that's kinda left me scratching my head, and wondering what's going here because with a lot of what I've read, and heard is that the union supposedly pays more than the non-union. But things aren't adding up here.

And I'd agree about the education. Even though the staffing company is the only place I've ever had any sort of electrical training at, I'm inclined to agree the training and education probably aren't the best in world though because I went through half of it before quitting. The reason I quit was because I felt like the instructor did not care if I got it, did not speak clear English, did not help me when I got stuck wiring a switch for the first time, and felt like all of that was setting me up for failure later on. Because much of the learning I did do was actually through YouTube videos, and DIY books on the electric trade, books on Amazon, free online courses for electrical helpers, that I took upon myself to look for and read or watch after class. Not through the instructor. When I went to the hiring manager to see if I could have 2 weeks instead of 1 week to learn this stuff since I was having to do all this, the answer was no, and I was let go.

So that's why I was asking has anyone ever heard of anything like this before because if I can make that kind of money doing electrical work somewhere, I would like to. My concern is that I may have burned my only bridge towards a $20 to $24/hr job in a year of work within the electric trade. At least as far as being in Charlotte, NC goes anyway because that was the only company that I know of that offers that.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> If they are willing to pay for some of the classes check for strings attached, such as staying for x number of years after completion. If not and you can live with the $12-16 an hour go for it. It is experience after all.
> 
> 
> Cowboy


From what I remember, there were no requirements to stay with them a certain amount of time for school. I think it was implied though if the school takes 2 years to complete, then I would need to stay with them for at least that long in order to be reimbursed for it because what would be the point of them paying for something that no longer benefited them?

The only thing I remember that the manager really stressed during the interview was me agreeing to not leave within a couple months because if I didn't stay any longer than that, then he said it wouldn't be worth it for them to bother with, of which is understandable, and I wouldn't think of as a problem since the main thing that got my attention with them if the first place was the possibility of rapid advancement.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

DeterminedSparky said:


> What struck as being odd about it was the pay scale because I did not know it is possible to go from* being a helper with no experience at $12/hr to making $20 to $24/hr in just a year.*



This is not happening. If it sounds too good to be true- it is.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

You're probably looking at a terrific wash-out rate.

That would explain a LOT.

What they're really expecting is to pick up guys that have experience that can't be documented.

In your neck of the woods, there are no small number of guys that are in this situation.

So they're hired on at a stinking rate. If they prove out, raises come right along... maybe.

What usually happens is that the low wage proves to be 'sticky' -- and that all of the promises loaded to the back-end are just a wagon-load.

What he really wants is a guy who is willing to put in crazy hours... and of whom he can 'push around' because better things a in prospect just around the corner.

The negative of a Big, Big Job is that you'll be sentenced to TONS of underground for weeks on end, then tons of rough-in. Don't expect to touch too many wires. Considering the calendar, I'd say that big ditches are opening up in a neighborhood near you.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Do electricians not in Buisiness for themselves make $30 an hour in NC? Do they really make that in two years? I don’t know, I’ve never even passed through the state. There were posts here that didn’t seem to indicate a real high rate. 

Out of that $30 what do you get and what do you have to pay. In other words is there any fringe like pension, Anuity or health care on top of that rate, or do you have to provide your own health care? What do you have to pay the head hunter. Do they get a weekly cut like a temp agency?

It just seems like jumping to $30 an hour in two years is to good to be true. I would look into it a little further. As long as your not in some sort of contract, I would go for it. You need to get some experience. This might help you get in the door somewhere else when the silver lining starts to tear.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

By comparison, I had four years of a DOL certified trade school, and two and a half years hands on, and was making $0.50 over minimum wage. I was pumping gas on weekends making more money. 

$3.85 an hour to bust my ass during the week and $4.00 an hour to get down blouse shots on the weekend. It was a tough decision to stick with electrical. :vs_laugh:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

DeterminedSparky said:


> From what I remember, there were no requirements to stay with them a certain amount of time for school. I think it was implied though if the school takes 2 years to complete, then I would need to stay with them for at least that long in order to be reimbursed for it because what would be the point of them paying for something that no longer benefited them?
> 
> The only thing I remember that the manager really stressed during the interview was me agreeing to not leave within a couple months because if I didn't stay any longer than that, then he said it wouldn't be worth it for them to bother with, of which is understandable, and I wouldn't think of as a problem since the main thing that got my attention with them if the first place was the possibility of rapid advancement.


They put you on monkey see monkey do work that takes a few months to master. You have no idea of what you are doing but just assemble what you are shown what to do.
I can tell you for a fact that very well paid jourenymen Union electricians get placed on years long commercial projects that can seem just like that but, they have nice healthcare and retirement benefits. Most put in the 4 or 5 years it took to get their yellow ticket. 
You are trying to hack the system and are getting used while these scumbags take the other half of your compensation to their bank.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

It looks like $26.55 might be the prevailing wage. Plus fringe on top of that. So getting $30 in two years really looks to good to be true?


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If it sounds too good to be true- it is.


That's what went through my head when I first heard the hiring manager tell me about the pay. I was afraid I might have signed up for some sort of scam.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

telsa said:


> You're probably looking at a terrific wash-out rate.
> 
> That would explain a LOT.
> 
> What they're really expecting is to pick up guys that have experience that can't be documented.


I didn't really get that impression with them. They have photos of people who have successfully gone through their training program on their website, which would appear to be 300 people to date, and most of these people, including the ones I went through it with, would appear to be mostly white, and black, of which I wouldn't expect would be prime targets for cheap, undocumented labor. If that was the goal, I would think Mexicans would be the kind of people they would want to put through this program instead of people that actually have citizenship.



telsa said:


> What he really wants is a guy who is willing to put in crazy hours... and of whom he can 'push around' because better things a in prospect just around the corner.


I didn't get that impression either. I can't post the link to the entire job ad, but most of it said this:

"We are currently searching for dedicated individuals to join our electrical construction projects in and around Charlotte, NC! Great pay and steady hours available! NO EXPERIENCE IS NEEDED - training is provided.


Applicants must - 

- Be willing and able to learn new tasks and take instruction
- Have their own, reliable, transportation.
- Be able to work on their feet for 6-8 hours a day
- Be available to work Monday to Friday, 7:00am to 4:00pm

IF YOU CANNOT MEET ALL OF THESE REQUIREMENTS PLEASE DO NOT REPLY."

So based on that, the hours they expect people to commit to wouldn't seem that crazy. Now, maybe they're lying in the job ad about what they expect, but based on what I am able to see, it doesn't seem like that. They've been running this same ad for at least a year now since I began checking job ads for electrical work for about that long, and have regularly seen them come up in the results.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> I can tell you for a fact that very well paid jourenymen Union electricians get placed on years long commercial projects that can seem just like that but, they have nice healthcare and retirement benefits. Most put in the 4 or 5 years it took to get their yellow ticket.
> You are trying to hack the system and are getting used while these scumbags take the other half of your compensation to their bank.


I didn't understand my health insurance options well enough to be able make much of a comparison when I went through the application, but something that I remember was noticeably absent from it was any mention of retirement benefits. I understand that to be a pretty big selling point with going union. 

So assuming this staffing company pays what they say they pay, perhaps it is because they are not offering the benefits that come with being in the union, and that is one of the things that enables them to better compete against the union in the short run when it comes to attracting labor.

I wouldn't say I'm trying to hack the system though. I am trying to understand what are my options for having a career in the electric trade, and of those, which is the best. So far, it would seem like for the long term, the union would be the best way to go. For the short term, I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> It looks like $26.55 might be the prevailing wage. Plus fringe on top of that. So getting $30 in two years really looks to good to be true?


Yeah, that's the union journeyman rate for Charlotte, NC, but I don't know that necessarily means any higher rate of pay at a non-union shop is impossible. 

A way to reach out to the people that went through the staffing company's training via Facebook just occurred to me. Perhaps some might be willing to talk to me about what happened to them afterwards. I think it would be interesting to see what they have to say about it.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Where I’m from it’s more common to make half of the prevailing wage open shop. With a lot of experience you may be at three quarters. Any contractor would be hard pressed to pay full boat after five years, forget two. 

Your market may be completely different. Where I’m at total package is around $75, with $52 in the envelope. The contractor sees other expenses like workers comp and pushes his cost closer to $100


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I dont have a problem with a company making money but, our trade requires a considerable amount of OJT and that really needs to happen in your 20s and 30s so that when you are in your 40s and fifties you can start coming off of the tools and run jobs.
I hate to see young guys squander those precious years and then become unemployable due to wear and tear on their bodies when they get into their 50s.
Our trade is a strategic long play. You need to take the job with the very best long term benefits you can find, get into or qualify for. 
I was tempted to chase the fast buck of $20 per hour installing alarm cabling back when I was making $7.14 per hour. My dad encouraged me to stay in the trade and get into the IBEW apprenticeship program. Im grateful for that advice now that I am older, well vested and have the option of a disability retirement if I need to take it. 
TLDR:
Dont chase the fast buck, plan for a long career.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

DeterminedSparky said:


> - Be able to work on their feet for 6-8 hours a day
> - Be available to work Monday to Friday, 7:00am to 4:00pm


 
First watch out.


You said they wanted you to work 60 hrs a week plus online school time at a community collage. The ad say 8 hrs 5 days a week. 


Watch for burn out, they want toooo many hours for you to complete a study coarse.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You want to be an electrician.

You can't land a job anywhere.

You find a possible job that may have some issues but if you take it and stick it out a year you will have what other contractors are looking for.

What is the issue?



I NEVER UNDERSTAND CONTRACTORS WANTING ONE YEAR EXPERIENCE. If I need first-year help a greenhorn is about as good as a 1st year in a few weeks.

Depending on the type of work.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I don't think it's that hard of a decision for the OP - you can continue to look for something better; this job will only improve your prospects for better things. 

If I anyone should be ****ting their pants, it's the IBEW, because this is a pretty good formula for companies that want to undercut them. Replacing 

very well trained, very well compensated people 

with 

just barely trained enough to complete tasks and comply with the law, just barely enough pay and benefits to keep them from leaving 

will work, they will undercut the union shops and win bids. 

The union has two trump (hehe) cards: 

1. the Davis Bacon prevailing wage law for publicly funded work 

2. providing liquidity of labor, the ability to staff up and down quickly when large jobs are won / completed through booms and busts. 

The staffing company can provide #2. Sooner or later, someone's going to challenge in court that "prevailing wage" is not what the top 15% of the work force makes, it's what the middle of the range makes. 

Then what? You're F'd. 

I keep coming to the same conclusion: the IBEW has made the club too exclusive, organize more, get some action for your political support, fight or die.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> First watch out.
> 
> 
> You said they wanted you to work 60 hrs a week plus online school time at a community collage. The ad say 8 hrs 5 days a week.
> ...


You are right, and I should clear some things up.

They never told me they expected or required me to work 60 hours a week. They told me it was possible to for me to work 60 hours a week if I wanted to.

After the manager had told me what is possible in terms of pay, and I started going to their training class the following week, I tried to better understand it by asking the instructor how does this work, how do you get a journeyman license in North Carolina. In North Carolina, she said, that you don't have a journeyman license, you have 3 types of electrical contractor licenses - limited, intermediate, and unlimited. She further added, that if I wanted to go through it as fast as possible, that it could be done by working 60 hours a week, and taking online classes at the local community college for the next two years. She said that is how it is possible.

And I agree, burnout was a concern when I was thinking it over in my head. I'd pretty much have no life outside of work for at least 2 years then.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> Do electricians not in Buisiness for themselves make $30 an hour in NC? Do they really make that in two years? I don’t know, I’ve never even passed through the state. There were posts here that didn’t seem to indicate a real high rate.


I don't know, but I think that might have been the catch with the $30/hr rate upon looking back on it. When the manager spoke of the $12 to $16 to $20/hr pay within a year, he did so with confidence. Just before he mentioned the $30/hr rate towards the end being possible after 2 years, he paused for a little bit and appeared to be looking me over as though he was trying to size me up, and what he thought I was capable of. His confidence seemed borderline at that point, like he wanted to think I could do it, but wasn't 100% certain. He also said something about if I stay with them long term, maybe I could get my workers through them as some sort of wishful thinking. So I'm thinking maybe that's where the $30/hr number came from.

But if I could just get $20/hr a lot sooner than 4 or 5 years without significantly increasing my cost of living in the process, I'd be happy with that rate of pay.


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## David C (May 19, 2015)

NC sounds like a tough place for apprentices... I think MD journeyman wages are almost $60/h, from what I've heard from a journeyman changing some street lamp bulbs a few years back by the beach in OC.


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## Journey 2 Master (Mar 11, 2019)

brian john said:


> You want to be an electrician.
> 
> You can't land a job anywhere.
> 
> ...


I agree, not much of a difference in a greenhorn and a 12-month (greenish-yellow-horn). I'd rather hire someone fresh and put my methodologies into them than have a 1 year helper that has a ****-ton of bad habits to have to train out of them.


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## DeterminedSparky (Mar 14, 2019)

*Electricians don't want helpers like Plumbers do*



brian john said:


> You want to be an electrician.
> 
> You can't land a job anywhere.
> 
> ...


I guess just getting the job in the first place since many job ads call for having at least 1 year of experience. I don't have the experience, and I'm not a very good liar for two reasons. First, I hate being dishonest on principle, and if put to the test, and second I think it would become obvious if I did. For example, I know what a bender is, and I have seen how to use one, but I haven't had any practice cutting, measuring, and bending conduit. So if an employer said show me what you can do, I'd probably be pretty slow the first time doing it, and might even end up dog legging it because I need practice.




brian john said:


> I NEVER UNDERSTAND CONTRACTORS WANTING ONE YEAR EXPERIENCE. If I need first-year help a greenhorn is about as good as a 1st year in a few weeks.
> 
> Depending on the type of work.


That's something I don't understand either. I have been thinking about whether or not I want to be a plumber or electrician. I want to be an electrician, but there is this hurdle to jump over with being an electrician. Yet when I look at the plumber ads, the impression I get with plumbing is I could apply somewhere today, and start tomorrow as an apprentice with zero experience. But plumbing is not what I want to do.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

splatz said:


> I don't think it's that hard of a decision for the OP - you can continue to look for something better; this job will only improve your prospects for better things.
> 
> If I anyone should be ****ting their pants, it's the IBEW, because this is a pretty good formula for companies that want to undercut them. Replacing
> 
> ...



Your last paragraph is just the tip of the ice berg.


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## Alec thenice (May 31, 2019)

*At least you can say you got experience*



DeterminedSparky said:


> It was my impression that they were probably legit too because everything about them seemed professional to me. They didn't seem like some fly by night company to me. The hiring manager said that he has hundreds of electricians working for him on sites in Charlotte, NC, like hospitals, schools, and hotels with years worth of work. What struck as being odd about it was the pay scale because I did not know it is possible to go from being a helper with no experience at $12/hr to making $20 to $24/hr in just a year.
> 
> When I consider my other option, which is to try to get an apprenticeship with the Charlotte, NC IBEW Local, it looks like it would take almost 4 years to make about the same amount of money with them when I look at their pay scale. So that's kinda left me scratching my head, and wondering what's going here because with a lot of what I've read, and heard is that the union supposedly pays more than the non-union. But things aren't adding up here.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't relocate for this position but I would definitely show up. I doubt this experience would count toward an institutional certification but that's just a gut feeling, NC is a different kind of state.


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