# Garage Sub Req?



## Selectric (Aug 18, 2009)

I do not have my book handy but you need a means of disconnect for a detached garage. For what you describe you could get away with a double pole toggle switch. I am sure someone will chime in with the article before I look it up.


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## mr.photon (Feb 5, 2015)

Why would you not want a separate service panel? I think that it would be good to have if you want extra circuits.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Take a look at 225.30. Also look at 250.32(A) and its exception, and look at 210.4(A).


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## Selectric (Aug 18, 2009)

And 225.31through 225.40.


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## dielectricunion (Nov 29, 2012)

Change that to a multi wire branch circuit, share a neutral between your two hot conductors and put them on a dual pole 20 breaker or use handle ties.

That will accomplish your 2 circuits and be code compliant without adding anything special.


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

lquid1/4mi033 said:


> Was really busy and didn't stick around for inspection on a garage remodel since the GC was gonna be there all day. Got a correction that I have to have a subpanel if I have more than 1 circuit running to a detached garage. Cant find anything in the book about this. Anyone got a reference on this if it exists? BTW I was running 2-20amp circuits to the garage if that makes a difference. Thanks.


If you ran a multi-wire branch circuit you would have passed. 

*II. More Than One Building or Other Structure*
*225.30* Number of Supplies. Where more than one building
or other structure is on the same property and under
single management, each additional building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load
side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied
by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a
multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

dielectricunion said:


> Change that to a multi wire branch circuit, share a neutral between your two hot conductors and put them on a dual pole 20 breaker or use handle ties.
> 
> That will accomplish your 2 circuits and be code compliant without adding anything special.


Amd since he's using two cable assemblies, he would need to wire tie the multi wire branch circuit together in the panel.


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Amd since he's using two cable assemblies, he would need to wire tie the multi wire branch circuit together in the panel.


Actually since he is using two cable assemblies he is not using a multiwire branch circuit. So, there is no option aside from eliminating one circuit, running a feeder and installing a sub panel or eliminating the two circuits all together and running a three wire. Remember you can't make a muliti wire branch circuit from two cables. All the conductors of the circuit need to be in the same raceway or cable. If he runs a feeder and puts in a sub panel he is going to need a ground rod too...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Let me say it-- as we seldom do-- The inspector is correct.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Tom Solanto said:


> Actually since he is using two cable assemblies he is not using a multiwire branch circuit. So, there is no option aside from eliminating one circuit, running a feeder and installing a sub panel or eliminating the two circuits all together and running a three wire. Remember you can't make a muliti wire branch circuit from two cables. All the conductors of the circuit need to be in the same raceway or cable. If he runs a feeder and puts in a sub panel he is going to need a ground rod too...


Nope. You're wrong. Please prove your statement with nec code. 
And believe me, it's not there.


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Nope. You're wrong. Please prove your statement with nec code.
> And believe me, it's not there.


LOL 300.3

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors
shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary
gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

This is where it says that you can't just make up a multiwire branch circuit by using two cables.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Tom Solanto said:


> LOL 300.3
> 
> (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
> the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
> ...


read further. there is an exception for non ferrous cables


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

check it out

(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring
methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath,
where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays,
trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of
300.20(B). Conductors in single-conductor Type MI cable
with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of
332.31. Conductors of single-conductor Type MC cable with a
nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of
330.31, 330.116, and 300.20(B).


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Now, that being said it will require a non metaliic box to terminate the cables before they enter the panel to comply with the other sections


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> read further. there is an exception for non ferrous cables


Yes but it says that those wiring methods must comply with 300.20B. Am I missing something?

*300.20B*
(B) Individual Conductors. Where a single conductor
carrying alternating current passes through metal with magnetic
properties, the inductive effect shall be minimized by
(1) cutting slots in the metal between the individual holes
through which the individual conductors pass or (2) passing
all the conductors in the circuit through an insulating wall
sufficiently large for all of the conductors of the circuit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Tom Solanto said:


> Yes but it says that those wiring methods must comply with 300.20B. Am I missing something?
> 
> *300.20B*
> (B) Individual Conductors. Where a single conductor
> ...


They arent single conductors. They are in a nm cable assembly


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> They arent single conductors. They are in a nm cable assembly


That is why you can't use two 12-2 UF or whatever cable to make a multiwire branch circuit. 300.3 says that you have to follow 300.20B. 300.20B is about individual conductors. This is why you cannot use this to site your particular install.

(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring
methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath,
where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable
trays, trenches, cables, or cords, *shall comply with the provisions
of 300.20(B).* Conductors in single-conductor Type
MI cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the
provisions of 332.31. Conductors of single-conductor Type
MC cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the
provisions of 330.31, 330.116, and 300.20(B).

*300.20B*
(B) Individual Conductors. Where a single conductor
carrying alternating current passes through metal with magnetic
properties, the inductive effect shall be minimized by
(1) cutting slots in the metal between the individual holes
through which the individual conductors pass or (2) passing
all the conductors in the circuit through an insulating wall
sufficiently large for all of the conductors of the circuit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Tom Solanto said:


> That is why you can't use two 12-2 UF or whatever cable to make a multiwire branch circuit. 300.3 says that you have to follow 300.20B. 300.20B is about individual conductors. This is why you cannot use this to site your particular install.
> 
> (3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring
> methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath,
> ...


There is absolutely nothing in 300.20 b prohibiting using two nm to make one mwbc.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

You can take both two wires and convert them to a 3 wire leaving an extra conductor. Do the same on both ends, use a double pole breaker in panel, double pole switch in garage.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> You can take both two wires and convert them to a 3 wire leaving an extra conductor. Do the same on both ends, use a double pole breaker in panel, double pole switch in garage.


Yep. Absolutely


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## Tom Solanto (Mar 11, 2011)

_This is an excerpt from one of Mike Holt’s forums. The use of 300.3 B 3 is strict and limited. Here is the link if you want to see it for yourself. http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/wiring-methods-part-1-3_

Install all conductors of a circuit in the same raceway, cable, trench, cord, or cable tray. You'll find four special cases that permit variations of this rule in 300.3(B)(1) through (4).

1.	Conductors can be run in parallel in accordance with 310.4, and must have all circuit conductors installed within the same raceway, cable tray, trench, or cable.
2.	You can install equipment grounding conductors (EGC) outside of a raceway or cable assembly for certain existing installations per 250.130(C). You can locate equipment grounding conductors outside of a flexible raceway, if you install the bonding jumper per 250.102(E).
3.	In nonferrous wiring methods, circuit conductors can be run in different raceways (Phase A in raceway 1, Phase B in raceway 2, etc.), if, in order to reduce or eliminate inductive heating, the raceway is nonmetallic or nonmagnetic, and the installation complies with 300.20(B).
4.	Neutral conductors can originate in a pullbox that is connected to a column-width panelboard by an auxiliary gutter.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

As long as both cables enter the enclosures via a single cable clamp there is no code issue. If the enclosures are non-metallic and the cable clamps are non-ferrous, there also would be no code issue with using two NM cables to create a multiwire circuit.


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