# GFCI receptacle in garage ceiling



## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

I don't feel like looking it up, but if I recall GFCI's in garages came in the 2008 code and the readily accessible thing came in 2017. As an example, the receptacle behind a refrigerator is not considered readily accessible and therefore you cannot use a GFCI receptacle. 

In the garage you can use a GFCI breaker like you did or feed it off another GFCI receptacle down low in the garage.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

flyboy said:


> I don't feel like looking it up, but if I recall GFCI's in garages came in the 2008 code and the readily accessible thing came in 2017. As an example, the receptacle behind a refrigerator is not considered readily accessible and therefore you cannot use a GFCI receptacle.
> 
> In the garage you can use a GFCI breaker like you did or feed it off another GFCI receptacle down low in the garage.


Are you sure it was 2008 that required the GFCI? Or would that be the 20 amp garage circuit?

Man I’ve got to get myself a current code book. I haven’t purchased one since 2011, when New York City Adopted the 2008 national electrical code, and retained only some portions of its own.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Back as far as 2014 the language is the same.


210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (F). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be *installed in a readily accessible location*.


(A) Dwelling Units.



All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)⁠(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(2)

Garages and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

Can't argue with the code but I think its kind of dumb.
Back when they decided that all the receptacles in the garage have to be GFCI protected it was because " even though there are receptacles conveniently located around, the owner may plug an extension cord into the ceiling receptacle by using a stepladder."
But now he cannot use the same ladder to reset the GFI.
In all my years in my house the ceiling GFCI receptacle hasn't tripped.
But lets say am not around and it does, my wife for sure would have a problem resetting it.
So, in conclusion, a regular receptacle would have been fine

Soon well have a panel, like in the very old times where the main lugs are split into 3-4 sections each protected by own GF/AF breaker and regular breakers downstream


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

“Readily accessible means capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspection, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, chairs, etc.”


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Peter Goldwing said:


> Can't argue with the code but I think its kind of dumb.
> Back when they decided that all the receptacles in the garage have to be GFCI protected it was because " even though there are receptacles conveniently located around, the owner may plug an extension cord into the ceiling receptacle by using a stepladder."
> But now he cannot use the same ladder to reset the GFI.
> In all my years in my house the ceiling GFCI receptacle hasn't tripped.
> ...


A lot of electricians thought the ground wire in nm was dumb and cut it short in boxes. Times change, we change or just become obsolete. That change was proposed by someone, discussed and brought into the code. Sometimes we don’t see the whole picture.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

LGLS said:


> Are you sure it was 2008 that required the GFCI? Or would that be the 20 amp garage circuit?
> 
> Man I’ve got to get myself a current code book. I haven’t purchased one since 2011, when New York City Adopted the 2008 national electrical code, and retained only some portions of its own.





LGLS said:


> Are you sure it was 2008 that required the GFCI? Or would that be the 20 amp garage circuit?
> 
> Man I’ve got to get myself a current code book. I haven’t purchased one since 2011, when New York City Adopted the 2008 national electrical code, and retained only some portions of its own.


No, not really sure. Couldn’t find the answer on line and I’m 900+ nm from my collection of code books. 🤔


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

flyboy said:


> I don't feel like looking it up, but if I recall GFCI's in garages came in the 2008 code and the readily accessible thing came in 2017. As an example, the receptacle behind a refrigerator is not considered readily accessible and therefore you cannot use a GFCI receptacle.
> 
> In the garage you can use a GFCI breaker like you did or feed it off another GFCI receptacle down low in the garage.


I was GFCI protecting garage receptacles back in 1986, when that receptacle along with outdoor receptacles, powder room and all bathroom receptacles were put on the same 15 amp circuit.
My own home, completed in 1973 had the same arrangement sans the garage receptacle, which was on a regular convenience circuit.


flyboy said:


> No, not really sure. Couldn’t find the answer on line and I’m 900+ nm from my collection of code books. 🤔


not a bad excuse to fly though, eh?


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> “Readily accessible means capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspection, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, chairs, etc.”


I know that. Thats why I said a regular receptacle would have sufficed


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Peter Goldwing said:


> I know that. Thats why I said a regular receptacle would have sufficed


Wirenuting put that in so everyone reading could see the definition, it wasn’t directed at you. He did it as a courtesy for us.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It's one of those things in the code that is a design issue , not a safety hazard , and doesn't belong there. Simple as that, no argument. None. 

But we have code forums to thank as some members compete constantly to attain guru status by submitting point after point to each cycle so they can be seen as a person of importance. Women do much the same with outlandish apparel, surgery, and hairdos................... Yea.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Side note. I do believe the outlets in the carports, and garages should be gfi protected, Well not that garage door opener so much , that's more look at me overkill, but I certainly have come across fridges with ground faults. That said , put a gfi outlet behind said fridge and I'm satisfied it will work when it is supposed to, just as well as one that is easily accessible.....

CMP= girls gone wild .....


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Mickeys on a roll.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

How high off the *ground* does it have to be before NEC says it doesn't need a *ground *fault protector


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

emtnut said:


> How high off the *ground* does it have to be before NEC says it doesn't need a *ground *fault protector


No hight exemptions indoors. Outside for roof snow melting is exempt.



Outdoors 
Exception to (3): 
Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be instal⁠led in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We always used a dead front gfci on the wall near the door from the house into the garage and then fed the receptacle in the ceiling.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> I was GFCI protecting garage receptacles back in 1986, when that receptacle along with outdoor receptacles, powder room and all bathroom receptacles were put on the same 15 amp circuit.
> My own home, completed in 1973 had the same arrangement sans the garage receptacle, which was on a regular convenience circuit.
> 
> not a bad excuse to fly though, eh?


I had three calls this year about the bathroom receptacle not working. After talking for several minutes on the phone I figured it was a GFCI some where in the house that tripped. It was as you said the GFCI was in the garage and the circuit fed the all the bathrooms and outside receptacle. Two of the calls I solved over the phone. I told the HO to look for a tripped GFCI throughout the house. The third one I had to go out because the GFCI was in the garage behind a tool chest which the lady could not move. Times have changed .


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> Side note. I do believe the outlets in the carports, and garages should be gfi protected, Well not that garage door opener so much , that's more look at me overkill, but I certainly have come across fridges with ground faults. That said , put a gfi outlet behind said fridge and I'm satisfied it will work when it is supposed to, just as well as one that is easily accessible.....
> 
> CMP= girls gone wild .....


I found out last year that they make GFCI receptacles that have an alarm when they trip. I started to use them for the refrigerators in the garage. Nothing worse than a bad GFCI that powers a full freezer.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I had three calls this year about the bathroom receptacle not working. After talking for several minutes on the phone I figured it was a GFCI some where in the house that tripped. It was as you said the GFCI was in the garage and the circuit fed the all the bathrooms and outside receptacle. Two of the calls I solved over the phone. I told the HO to look for a tripped GFCI throughout the house. The third one I had to go out because the GFCI was in the garage behind a tool chest which the lady could not move. Times have changed .


Well if those service calls were not in Countrywoods in Commack, I had nothing to do with it…


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

kb1jb1 said:


> I found out last year that they make GFCI receptacles that have an alarm when they trip. I started to use them for the refrigerators in the garage. Nothing worse than a bad GFCI that powers a full freezer.


Thanks, first time I heard of it. Would have saved me $$$ when my garage freezer tripped a few years ago. (A bad defrost element)


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## BillF (Mar 24, 2021)

Peter Goldwing said:


> Can't argue with the code but I think its kind of dumb.
> Back when they decided that all the receptacles in the garage have to be GFCI protected it was because " even though there are receptacles conveniently located around, the owner may plug an extension cord into the ceiling receptacle by using a stepladder."
> But now he cannot use the same ladder to reset the GFI.
> In all my years in my house the ceiling GFCI receptacle hasn't tripped.
> ...


You won't think it dumb if you have to use a ladder in the dark to reset a GFI in the dark when there is minimal clear space.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

We’re complaining about our fuel bills, but I wonder how much a tank of 100LL is these days to fly the 900miles to get those code books.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

LGLS said:


> Are you sure it was 2008 that required the GFCI? Or would that be the 20 amp garage circuit?
> 
> Man I’ve got to get myself a current code book. I haven’t purchased one since 2011, when New York City Adopted the 2008 national electrical code, and retained only some portions of its own.


2008 was when the exception for specific appliances like a garage door openers was removed.
So under the 2005 we skipped the GFCI protection for garage door openers and sump pumps.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Peter Goldwing said:


> Can't argue with the code but I think its kind of dumb.
> Back when they decided that all the receptacles in the garage have to be GFCI protected it was because " even though there are receptacles conveniently located around, the owner may plug an extension cord into the ceiling receptacle by using a stepladder."
> But now he cannot use the same ladder to reset the GFI.
> In all my years in my house the ceiling GFCI receptacle hasn't tripped.
> ...


I remember going to a house where the **** owner had installed floor to ceiling cabinets on all three walls of the garage and installed a Sam's Club retractable extension cord into the second receptacle of the door opener duplex receptacle.


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

backstay said:


> Back as far as 2014 the language is the same.
> 
> 
> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
> ...


The NEC's definition of readily accessible states: “capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders and so forth.”


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

Peter Goldwing said:


> In the last house I wired the inspector says that the GFI receptacle in the ceiling is too high (8 ft) and therefore not accessible. I had a conversation with him and in the end, I told him I will put a GFCI breaker in the panel. However I think he was wrong.
> Can anyone give me proof of one way or the other.
> Thanks, Peter


The NEC's definition of readily accessible states: “capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders and so forth.”


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Table saw, drill, you name it, he plugs into it. Found this while doing a panel upgrade this week and trying to identify circuits.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

What DO you do in a room full of floor to ceiling bookshelves or cabinets to meet required receptacles? (Asking for a friend.)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

GladMech said:


> What DO you do in a room full of floor to ceiling bookshelves or cabinets to meet required receptacles? (Asking for a friend.)


Floor receptacles, receptacles in bookshelves, receptacles in the toe kick.


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Table saw, drill, you name it, he plugs into it. Found this while doing a panel upgrade this week and trying to identify circuits.
> and fix whatever is wrong with the equipment he plugged in
> View attachment 165049


If the guy can reach to plug his table saw in and the light into that extension, he for sure can reset his GFCI plug
I think the code wiring is based on common sense and no matter how much you adhere to it you'll find a few people that screw it up. If you put a GFI up there hell run a cord from inside his house from a plug that is not GF protected or he'll put one of those adapters that you screw into the ceiling light which doesn't even have a ground.
In the future Ill put a 20 A GFCI circuit in one bay run it to the garage opener and drop it in the second bay. Easy pizy


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

GladMech said:


> What DO you do in a room full of floor to ceiling bookshelves or cabinets to meet required receptacles? (Asking for a friend.)


You call that a library and wire it such


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Peter Goldwing said:


> If the guy can reach to plug his table saw in and the light into that extension, he for sure can reset his GFCI plug
> I think the code wiring is based on common sense and no matter how much you adhere to it you'll find a few people that screw it up. If you put a GFI up there hell run a cord from inside his house from a plug that is not GF protected or he'll put one of those adapters that you screw into the ceiling light which doesn't even have a ground.
> In the future Ill put a 20 A GFCI circuit in one bay run it to the garage opener and drop it in the second bay. Easy pizy


you could always use a dead front GFCI protector and put it right next to the button for the door opener


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

Almost Retired said:


> you could always use a dead front GFCI protector and put it right next to the button for the door opener


Why wouldnt I put a standard GFCI receptacle which suffice the 20 Amp Bay circuit requirement and then to opener and after that down the wall on the other side for second bay 20A circuit requirement ?


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Peter Goldwing said:


> Why wouldnt I put a standard GFCI receptacle which suffice the 20 Amp Bay circuit requirement and then to opener and after that down the wall on the other side for second bay 20A circuit requirement ?


you could, no argument
just a thought


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Peter Goldwing said:


> Why wouldnt I put a standard GFCI receptacle which suffice the 20 Amp Bay circuit requirement and then to opener and after that down the wall on the other side for second bay 20A circuit requirement ?


Because that "dedicated" 20-amp circuit(s) is no longer allowed to serve receptacles above 5.5' effective with the 2020 edition.
See 210.11(C)(4) restricting said 20-amp to receptacles required by 210.52(G)(1).
210.11(C)(4) exception still allows "readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets" on that circuit.
210.52(G)(1) then restricts that/those circuit(s) to 5.5 feet or lower.
Fun times in the 2020.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Almost Retired said:


> you could, no argument
> just a thought


Not under the 2020.


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

As of 3/1 /22 Fl is still under 2017 code. Kansas is under 2008 edition


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Until the Wuhan flu, MN was July 1 full adoption of the current code. The 2020 code didn’t get adopted until November. And the GF crap was hit or miss because we couldn’t get parts.


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

Peter Goldwing said:


> In the last house I wired the inspector says that the GFI receptacle in the ceiling is too high (8 ft) and therefore not accessible. I had a conversation with him and in the end, I told him I will put a GFCI breaker in the panel. However I think he was wrong.
> Can anyone give me proof of one way or the other.
> Thanks, Peter


*210.8(A) Dwelling Units*: “All 125V - 250V receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150V or less to ground shall have GFCI protection for personnel.

*210.8(A)(2) Garages & accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use*: “There are no exceptions. All 125-250V single-phase receptacles installed in garages must provide GFCI protection for the user of appliances or other equipment regardless of where the receptacle is located in the garage.”

I don't see anything about it being readily accessible in 210.8. However, it does say readily accessible for AFCIs.

*210.12 AFCI Protection*: “AFCI protection shall be provided as required in 210.12(A), (B), (C), and (D). The AFCI shall be installed in a *readily accessible* location.”


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We always used a dead front gfci on the wall near the door from the house into the garage and then fed the receptacle in the ceiling.
> 
> View attachment 164881


That's an ingenious idea! I've never seen, nor heard of this. Thanks.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Nando said:


> *210.8(A) Dwelling Units*: “All 125V - 250V receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150V or less to ground shall have GFCI protection for personnel.
> 
> *210.8(A)(2) Garages & accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use*: “There are no exceptions. All 125-250V single-phase receptacles installed in garages must provide GFCI protection for the user of appliances or other equipment regardless of where the receptacle is located in the garage.”
> 
> ...


Read the paragraph above 210.8(A) labeled 210.8. That's where the "readily accessible" is noted.


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

I did this for my parents home not to long ago.... YEAH, Residential in the 90s had the fridge tied in etc.... I just ran a branch Circuit to the Garage and made the receptacles GFCI protected after the "first" device..

If that is even able to happen in the future.. Customer would pay more in that scenario or could be grandfathered in


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> I had three calls this year about the bathroom receptacle not working. After talking for several minutes on the phone I figured it was a GFCI some where in the house that tripped. It was as you said the GFCI was in the garage and the circuit fed the all the bathrooms and outside receptacle. Two of the calls I solved over the phone. I told the HO to look for a tripped GFCI throughout the house. The third one I had to go out because the GFCI was in the garage behind a tool chest which the lady could not move. Times have changed .


Same here on a 1993 home in St. Louis.... Looks like they made have had a system


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Matt Hermanson said:


> Read the paragraph above 210.8(A) labeled 210.8. That's where the "readily accessible" is noted.


210.8(A) through (F). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

One thought about "readily accessible " is so that the people might be more inclined to test them. After all who can resist pressing a red button? GFCI devices are supposed to be tested monthly which nobody does. If they are not out in the open what are the chances someone will test them? Yes they are self testing but it still says to test them monthly.


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

Matt Hermanson said:


> Read the paragraph above 210.8(A) labeled 210.8. That's where the "readily accessible" is noted.


 Thanks for pointing it out. I somehow missed it. However, 2020 NEC states 


> *210.8 GFCI Protection for Personnel*: GFCI protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (F).


Which I take it to mean that the GFCI doesn't need to be on the ceiling, it can be anywhere readily accessible (where a ladder isn't needed) and the outlet on the ceiling can just be downstream from it. The book also supplies an image, Exhibit 210.10 which shows the garage door plug in the ceiling with the label "GFCI" next to it. The handbook also states, 


> "There are no exceptions. All 125- through 250V single-phase receptacles installed in garages must provide GFCI protection for the user of appliances or other equipment regardless of where the receptacle is located in the garage."


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Nando said:


> Thanks for pointing it out. I somehow missed it. However, 2020 NEC states
> 
> Which I take it to mean that the GFCI doesn't need to be on the ceiling, it can be anywhere readily accessible (where a ladder isn't needed) and the outlet on the ceiling can just be downstream from it. The book also supplies an image, Exhibit 210.10 which shows the garage door plug in the ceiling with the label "GFCI" next to it. The handbook also states,


210.8(A) and (B) (A is for dwelling units and B is for everything else) give lists of locations and conditions (voltage and amperage) that RECEPTACLES (and just receptacles) must be GFCI protected. How and where we protect it is up to us as long as where ever the GFCI device itself is located is in a readily accessible location. See article 100 for the definition of what "readily accessible" really means as well as what is a "dwelling unit".


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

Matt Hermanson said:


> 210.8(A) and (B) (A is for dwelling units and B is for everything else) give lists of locations and conditions (voltage and amperage) that RECEPTACLES (and just receptacles) must be GFCI protected. How and where we protect it is up to us as long as where ever the GFCI device itself is located is in a readily accessible location. See article 100 for the definition of what "readily accessible" really means as well as what is a "dwelling unit".


It doesn't look like we're disagreeing. And yes, the GFCI conversation is in reference to outlets. As stated earlier, from the handbook, "All 125- through 250V single-phase *receptacles* installed in garages must provide GFCI protection for the user". This includes the garage door outlet in the ceiling. 

I've already looked up readily accessible numerous times, along with dwelling unit. Like I said, sounds like we're in agreement.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Nando said:


> It doesn't look like we're disagreeing. And yes, the GFCI conversation is in reference to outlets. As stated earlier, from the handbook, "All 125- through 250V single-phase *receptacles* installed in garages must provide GFCI protection for the user". This includes the garage door outlet in the ceiling.
> 
> I've already looked up readily accessible numerous times, along with dwelling unit. Like I said, sounds like we're in agreement.
> [/QUO
> ...


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Matt Hermanson said:


> Because that "dedicated" 20-amp circuit(s) is no longer allowed to serve receptacles above 5.5' effective with the 2020 edition.
> See 210.11(C)(4) restricting said 20-amp to receptacles required by 210.52(G)(1).
> 210.11(C)(4) exception still allows "readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets" on that circuit.
> 210.52(G)(1) then restricts that/those circuit(s) to 5.5 feet or lower.
> Fun times in the 2020.


210.11(C)(4) only restricts to having a circuit for the garage receptacles. This circuit can be have any other OUTLETS. In other words that receptacle circuit is for the garage receptacles only. You can not share it with lights, or receptacles in mud rooms etc.
210.52 ( G)(1) is telling us that you shall install one receptacle in each vehicle bay of the garage. THOSE outlets shall not be higher than 5’6” off the floor. It’s ONLY those that are restricted/. You can install as many as you want at any height as long as you have at least one for each vehicle bay lower than 5’6” off the floor. There NO restrictions on using the same circuit for ceiling receptacles and the required receptacles for each vehicle bay


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

manchestersparky said:


> 210.11(C)(4) only restricts to having a circuit for the garage receptacles. This circuit can be have any other OUTLETS. In other words that receptacle circuit is for the garage receptacles only. You can not share it with lights, or receptacles in mud rooms etc.
> 210.52 ( G)(1) is telling us that you shall install one receptacle in each vehicle bay of the garage. THOSE outlets shall not be higher than 5’6” off the floor. It’s ONLY those that are restricted/. You can install as many as you want at any height as long as you have at least one for each vehicle bay lower than 5’6” off the floor. There NO restrictions on using the same circuit for ceiling receptacles and the required receptacles for each vehicle bay


*210.11(C)(4)* has an exception, 


> _*Exception*: This circuit shall be permitted to supply readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets._


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> 210.11(C)(4) only restricts to having a circuit for the garage receptacles. This circuit can be have any other OUTLETS. In other words that receptacle circuit is for the garage receptacles only. You can not share it with lights, or receptacles in mud rooms etc.
> 210.52 ( G)(1) is telling us that you shall install one receptacle in each vehicle bay of the garage. THOSE outlets shall not be higher than 5’6” off the floor. It’s ONLY those that are restricted/. You can install as many as you want at any height as long as you have at least one for each vehicle bay lower than 5’6” off the floor. There NO restrictions on using the same circuit for ceiling receptacles and the required receptacles for each vehicle bay


You'd better read the 2020 NEC again.
But slowly.
And maybe a few times at that.
I didn't say that I agree with the new language.
Just that it is.


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

Matt Hermanson said:


> An "outlet" is a box with a couple of wires hanging out and a "receptacle" is one of many types of devices that are installed in an outlet.


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The outlet (or receptacle outlet) is what people refer to as an outlet, as in, "plug the "Christmas tree lights in the outlet next to the fireplace". The receptacle is what you plug the plug into, or to be exact, the receptacle is the holes that we plug the "attachment plug" into. Per Article 100:


> *Attachment Plug*: "A device that, by insertion in a receptacle, establishes a connection between the conductors of the attached flexible cord and the conductors connected permanently to the receptacle."


The *outlet* is, as per Article 100:


> *Outlet*: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


 Which...doesn't really mean anything to the average sparky. But the Handbook note says,


> _The term outlet is frequently misused to refer to receptacles. *Although receptacle outlets are outlets, *not all outlets are receptacle outlets. Other common examples of outlets include appliance outlets, lighting outlets, and smoke alarm outlets._


The *receptacle* is, as per Article 100:


> *Receptacle*: A contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug, or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact device. *A single receptacle is a single contact device* with no other contact device on the same yoke or strap. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke or strap. _*Information Note*: duplex receptacle is an example of a multiple receptacle that has two receptacles on the same yoke or strap. (*Handbook note*: This definition was revised for the 2017 edition to recognize that not all receptacles are for cord-and-plug-connected equipment. A receptacle can be used for the connection of specific utilization equipment, such as luminaires. _





> *Receptacle Outlet*: An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.


So, again, sorry to disagree, but an outlet is not a box-of-wires. There are no wires on an outlet. The outlet is the device that houses the receptacles, which are the female holes in the outlet. And as Article 100 states, "_receptacle outlets are outlets"._

And, though I may be wrong, I again have to disagree with what you say here.


> Take 210.52(G) for example. We are required to install a "receptacle outlet" in each vehicle bay. And even though a four-gang box with four duplex receptacles is eight "receptacles", it is only one "receptacle outlet."


From everything I've read, your example would be four receptacle outlets; each being a duplex. As per the code I just mentioned above; "_receptacle outlets are outlets._"

*Re: GFCI:*

We're in agreement, that the GFCI device must be located in a readily accessible location.
We're also in agreement regarding 210.8(D) & 422.5.
Note: I too am ex-11B1P, though never saw combat. I'm more than happy to delve into the code as far as needed. In fact, I'm rewriting the code book, consolidating all code pertaining to job in the field, to assist with studies and reference in the field.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Nando said:


> I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The outlet (or receptacle outlet) is what people refer to as an outlet, as in, "plug the "Christmas tree lights in the outlet next to the fireplace".


All due respect your interpretations are let's not say wrong, but they don't match up with everyone else's and they don't make sense with the way the terms are used elsewhere in the code. IMO the code language is kind of halfass legalese, your interpretations are esoteric with the word "point" are similar to Bill Clinton type interpretations of the meaning of the word "is." You might be able to get a jury of people too dumb to get out of jury duty to buy this line that a duplex receptacle is two outlets. I don't think you'll find many electricians that buy your line, I mean some will - there's one born every minute after all - but most won't. 

Are you really an electrical apprentice? You sound less like an apprentice electrician and DIY lawyer, more like a lawyer and DIY electrician.


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## Ronan (9 mo ago)

splatz said:


> All due respect your interpretations are let's not say wrong, but they don't match up with everyone else's and they don't make sense with the way the terms are used elsewhere in the code. IMO the code language is kind of halfass legalese, your interpretations are esoteric with the word "point" are similar to Bill Clinton type interpretations of the meaning of the word "is." You might be able to get a jury of people too dumb to get out of jury duty to buy this line that a duplex receptacle is two outlets. I don't think you'll find many electricians that buy your line, I mean some will - there's one born every minute after all - but most won't.
> 
> Are you really an electrical apprentice? You sound less like an apprentice electrician and DIY lawyer, more like a lawyer and DIY electrician.


Wow. You say I don't make sense but refuse to be specific. Whereas I quoted NEC to back up my comments. Not sure why think I said that a duplex receptacle is two outlets. If I said that, please feel free to point it out, because I don't think I did say that. But if I did, I misspoke. And, I'm not sure what Clinton has to do with this...some people just like to bring politics into everything, and I don't give a **** about your politics; I'm interested in code.

Re: electricians agreeing with me, here are some links. Please feel free to provide links and NEC code to show the error of my ways.

"To make it more simple, you can say that receptacle refers to the slots where the prongs of the plug enter, while outlet refers to the whole box. You can have more than one set of slots on the same outlet. This means you can have multiple receptacles on the same outlet."
Outlet vs. Receptacle (What’s the Difference?) – All The Differences

"A receptacle is a set of slots into which a plug enters...An outlet, on the other hand, is the box on which the slots sit. You can have multiple receptacles on a single outlet."








Outlet VS Socket VS Receptacle – What’s The Difference? | PortablePowerGuides


Outlets can malfunction for a variety of reasons, ranging from loose connections to cracked bodies. When the worst comes to pass, you may be tempted…




portablepowerguides.com





"a receptacle is one set of holes where the plug of an appliance is connected, while a receptacle outlet or simply an outlet is the whole box, which may contain various receptacles. A receptacle is a female connector...There are different types of receptacles, i.e. different types of holes, varying on maximum RMS voltage, maximum RMS current, and country. There are also different types of outlets, e.g. duplex outlets (having two receptacles), USB outlets (having two receptacles and two female USB connectors), GFCI outlets (having two receptacles with leakage/residual current protection), etc."








What are the differences between outlet and receptacle? What are some examples?


Answer (1 of 4): (This answer applies to the US, where the National Electrical Code is used.) Technical definitions The NEC 2020 defines outlet on article 100, on page 38: > Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. It also defines recept...




www.quora.com





"Receptacles with a 20 amp current have a similar design to the 15 amp ones, with a single exception: an additional horizontal slot, which forks from one of the vertical slots (picture on the right). This enables 20 amp plugs to be inserted directly into the outlet."


https://pennaelectric.com/15-amp-vs-20-amp-outlet/



Have a nice day.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Article 100 definition. With handbook text.


> *Outlet*. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (CMP-1)
> _The term outlet is frequently misused to refer to receptacles. Although receptacle outlets are outlets, not all outlets are receptacle outlets. Other common examples of outlets include lighting outlets and smoke alarm outlets._


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Article 90 definition. With handbook text.


Thank you. To the point. Keep it simple. I was getting confused with the conversation. I think the old time electricians look at things differently and keep it simple. Sort of a language thing. 

When people branch out to the internet for information then problems begin. When it comes to electric codes we should only be concerned with the NEC and established references. Quora, Questions, Portable power and all these internet question site are anybody's opinion and cause problems with the NEC definitions. If somebody has a problem with a definition then go right to the source, the NFPA or the IAEI. I think many do not own a code book or analysis book so they resort to the internet. 

This conversation sort of reminds me of "The Ten Commandments" . They are only 10. People started to ask, "What about this or that " With some looking for loop holes or expanded definitions of what could be allowed or tolerated. That 10 grew into 100s of laws.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Nando said:


> I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The outlet (or receptacle outlet) is what people refer to as an outlet, as in, "plug the "Christmas tree lights in the outlet next to the fireplace". The receptacle is what you plug the plug into, or to be exact, the receptacle is the holes that we plug the "attachment plug" into. Per Article 100:
> 
> 
> The *outlet* is, as per Article 100:
> ...


Read the article 100 definitions again.
But slowly.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Etc.

The "outlet" is the box.
The "receptacle" is the device.
The "receptacle outlet" is a box with a receptacle device(s) with/without other stuff installed.

The luminaire is installed on a box.
That box is an "outlet".

The smoke alarm is installed on a box.
That box is an "outlet."

A junction box is installed on a wall or a ceiling with no device or luminaire or smoke alarm or whatever installed on or in that box.
That box is an "outlet."

The outdoor condensing unit (think air conditioning and/or heat pump) is connected to a disconnect.
That disconnect is also an "outlet".

You install a Garvin TB-635 (or Crouse-Hinds TP-695 or RACO 695) deep six-gang masonry box.
[Because a six-gang device box (Garvin GB-2126) plus a six gang device ring (GBDC-126) cost about triple what the TP-695 cost.]
You then install a duplex receptacle in each device position for a total of six duplex receptacles installed in just this one box.
Yes, six devices have been installed.

But TWELVE receptacles have been installed.
Because each "duplex" receptacle is actually two separate receptacles.

And only ONE "receptacle outlet" has been installed.
Because you only installed one box.


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## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

This forum is an outlet.
*
*
*
*
*
But only SOME of the participants are receptacles.


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