# FPE breaker got a little warm



## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

So the customer was baking christmas cookies and the oven was not working properly, the appliance repair man said they needed an electrician and something about that thing is gonna burn your house down. This is what I found. the buss looks clean the problem was at the lug. They seem to want a new panel so I gave them a price today


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I doubt they need a new panel. If noalox was used perhaps they would not have had that problem.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Can you save Christmas?


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Yea the panel is fine but they read and heard all of the horror stories and they think they need one. If not me then someone else gets their money. 

I don't know if I can save Christmas but I am trying to make sure there will be enough cookies for everyone! lol


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Panel swaps are a 3-hour job.

Make sure you get a check and a half-dozen cookies when you're done.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Panel swaps are a 3-hour job.
> 
> Make sure you get a check and a half-dozen cookies when you're done.


 3 hours! I better line up two more for that day! lol.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Did you find a replacement breaker?


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Their A/C unit was on a 50 amp two pole, I asked if they anticipated using their AC for awhile (it was snowing last night) then put the circuit on that breaker, with a little cu/al gel.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Good job. Nothing easier than selling an upgrade when it is fpe.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnJ65 said:


> 3 hours! I better line up two more for that day! lol.


Been there, done that. Makes for a nice trip to the bank!


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Panel swaps are a 3-hour job.
> 
> Make sure you get a check and a half-dozen cookies when you're done.


I am not very far from you but around here a "panel swap" is a very rare thing. It almost always required updating the whole service and grounding.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Panel *swaps are a 3-hour job.*
> 
> Make sure you get a check and a half-dozen cookies when you're done.



What that a 6 circuit panel?:laughing:


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> I am not very far from you but around here a "panel swap" is a very rare thing. It almost always required updating the whole service and grounding.


 This one had a fairly new underground service on it, looked like it was only a few years old. 

It has 35 circuits in it, so maybe 3.5 hours to swap this one. lol


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

So where did the FPE panel, older than me come from?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> I am not very far from you but around here a "panel swap" is a very rare thing. It almost always required updating the whole service and grounding.


You should know by now that just about everything 480sparky says is untrue.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> You should know by now that just about everything 480sparky says is untrue.


I don't believe you. He is a MOD.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I doubt they need a new panel. If noalox was used perhaps they would not have had that problem.



Im going with loose connection.

I doubt they need a new panel either, but nothing like getting a service change out of an easy service call.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I doubt they need a new panel. If noalox was used perhaps they would not have had that problem.


I disagree Dennis. 

Once FPE breakers start to fail, that is the beginning of the end, plus the panel is likely at least 35-40 years old. 

Second, all the double-lugging shown in that one pic tells me they need more circuits on their own breakers. 

Finally, as expensive as FPE replacement breakers are, it would be a LOT cheaper (and safer) to replace the panel. :thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I doubt they need a new panel. If noalox was used perhaps they would not have had that problem.


Still does not mean FPE is trouble free. These breakers still have a high no trip rate. And I agree with MX, this is the begging of the end, a norm for FPE.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

MTW said:


> You should know by now that everything 480sparky says is untrue.




Fify


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

JohnJ65 said:


> So the customer was baking christmas cookies and the oven was not working properly, the appliance repair man said they needed an electrician and something about that thing is gonna burn your house down. This is what I found. the buss looks clean the problem was at the lug. They seem to want a new panel so I gave them a price today


Looks like money:thumbup:


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## Sbargers (Mar 28, 2013)

Panel swap ground per code then cash check what's wrong with that


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Think of this way, by code, '11 and up, we are supposed to provide AFCI protection when we modify a circuit or just change a receptacle. If they are a repeat customer, you are providing them some flexibility for the future. Sure, you can do the AFCI receptacle thing, but twins, cheaters, along with these and Zinsco are becoming a thing of the past.


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## joeelectric (Feb 7, 2014)

I had a Square D 200 amp trip before a FP 20 amp. I would change out the panel. Mice had shorted out a 3 wire feeder.


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## makelectric (Nov 7, 2013)

Definitely would recommend new panel. Federal Pacific is terrible and un trustworthy.


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## tersus (Jul 3, 2012)

That doubled-up single 20 below the range breaker isn't looking great now either. It almost looks like #14 under it, too..plus, another doubled-up breaker above the range..panel is full. If I couldn't convince them to upgrade the panel, the least I'd do might be to make sure the others are tight, hope that none of them crumble to pieces while I'm do it.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

joeelectric said:


> I had a Square D 200 amp trip before a FP 20 amp. I would change out the panel. Mice had shorted out a 3 wire feeder.


They have no magnetic trip. Any fault must heat the internal strip, and its a gamble if it will open. 

Not to mention that violates earth fault loop impedance disconnect times. (intent behind grounding and bonding)


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## Clarky (Sep 25, 2011)

I was told by my wholesaler FPE breakers are not replaceable, they can't get them because they are off the market, there have been fires I guess from them failing.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

mxslick said:


> I disagree Dennis.
> 
> Once FPE breakers start to fail, that is the beginning of the end, plus the panel is likely at least 35-40 years old.
> 
> ...


Double lugging is fine. The average load on circuits is so dang low that it really isnt a big deal. I would slap in square-d, double lug some stuff and call it a day.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

mxslick said:


> I disagree Dennis.
> Second, all the double-lugging shown in that one pic tells me they need more circuits on their own breakers.


I agree overall, if it's FPE it needs to go, but just to be a nit-picker, the pic only shows one breaker double-tapped. And in my opinion, that's not much of a sign of anything, except that it doesn't meet current code for methodology. Years ago it was normal, with appropriately loaded circuits. It could have been avoided, of course, by going to a junction box and splitting from there, but that cost another j-box, and besides, who wanted to look at a bunch of j-boxes?

ADDED. Ah yes. two double-tapped, in the pic.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> Still does not mean FPE is trouble free. These breakers still have a high no trip rate. And I agree with MX, this is the begging of the end, a norm for FPE.


My panel is about as old as 1976 and I have had no problems. Actually, yesterday I bought a DP 60A FPE from Lowes reduced to ten bucks because it had slipped out of the plastic. I've had pushmatic breakers that looked like the one in an earlier post but it was due to loose load terminals.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I have this one scheduled to be swapped out tomorrow. Out goes the FPE and in goes a Siemens 150A, MB, 42/60. The service was moved and changed a couple of years ago when they added on, so it will remain a 150A.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

JohnJ65 said:


> I have this one scheduled to be swapped out tomorrow. _*Out goes the FPE and in goes a Siemens 150A, MB, 42/60.*_ The service was moved and changed a couple of years ago when they added on, so it will remain a 150A.


Glad to hear it. :thumbup: Add to your satisfaction on this job by destroying that FPE P.O.S. and every breaker, preferably with a 20lb sledgehammer. :laughing: Followed by a good dousing with gasoline and a lighted match. 



Going_Commando said:


> *Double lugging is fine.* The average load on circuits is so dang low that it really isnt a big deal. I would slap in square-d, double lug some stuff and call it a day.


Yes, _*IF the breaker's terminals are listed for the purpose.*_ I do not believe FPE ever was listed for double-lugging. (And with their propensity to never trip, adds to the risk.) 

And yes, the load on most circuits is very low....but there is always that one time when someone loads both circuits up to the point of nuisance tripping. 

Finally, I just feel double-lugging is a bad idea and just not what a professional electrician should be proud of doing IMHO.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

mxslick said:


> Glad to hear it. :thumbup: Add to your satisfaction on this job by destroying that FPE P.O.S. and every breaker, preferably with a 20lb sledgehammer. :laughing: Followed by a good dousing with gasoline and a lighted match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## chris.b (Jan 28, 2013)

JohnJ65 said:


> I have this one scheduled to be swapped out tomorrow. Out goes the FPE and in goes a Siemens 150A, MB, 42/60. The service was moved and changed a couple of years ago when they added on, so it will remain a 150A.


Is the panel change the only thing you will do? No added rod or anything? How long will this take you and how much will you charge? (If you don't mind answering)


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

MTW said:


>


Glad to see you're back on the job busting my balls Pete..you did miss a perfect opportunity in the "Transformer Oil used for cooking" thread. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

mxslick said:


> Glad to see you're back on the job busting my balls Pete..you did miss a perfect opportunity in the "Transformer Oil used for cooking" thread. :laughing:


You haven't been around much so I've been missing that. :thumbup:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

MTW said:


> You haven't been around much so I've been missing that. :thumbup:


I'll be updating my Idaho house threads in the next week or so, so you'll have plenty of ammo to work with. :thumbsup:

Back to our regularly scheduled program...


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

mxslick said:


> Finally, I just feel double-lugging is a bad idea and just not what a professional electrician should be proud of doing IMHO.


I wasn't defending double-lugging in the present tense, just commenting on a historical practice that met code at one time. I did a couple of things in my twenties that I wouldn't defend or repeat today -- and some of them were legal at the time. 

Although I do get annoyed at home inspectors who flag panels for double-taps, which alarms home buyers and sellers both, but who miss the incorrectly installed MWBC's, and the failing service cable, and the missing or badly installed or corroded ground rods/clamps/cable, etc etc etc. DT's are just a no-brainer to spot, and make it easier for the inspector to justify their bill. IMHO.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> My panel is about as old as 1976 and I have had no problems. Actually, yesterday I bought a DP 60A FPE from Lowes reduced to ten bucks because it had slipped out of the plastic. I've had pushmatic breakers that looked like the one in an earlier post but it was due to loose load terminals.


Again, because it works, doesn't mean it works as intended. Any breaker can conduct power, but only a working breaker will interrupt it when needed.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

chris.b said:


> Is the panel change the only thing you will do? No added rod or anything? How long will this take you and how much will you charge? (If you don't mind answering)


Adding two rods and running the water main ground to where it enters the house instead of the closest pipe as it is now, inter system bridge also. Utilizing the existing SE cable from the meter. 

Bout $1900.00 for all of it. Will do the panel one day probably 6 to 7 hrs. and the grounding the next, 3 or 4 depending on difficulty of fishing the ground across a drywall ceiling. Maybe I'm a slow poke but I make too many mistakes if I turn up the wick too high. Also have to wire up the furnace to my generator to keep it comfy in there.


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## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

Anybody use a Eaton Cutler Hammer retrofit kit in a FPE upgrade?

Just recently my son near Portland called at 2 am saying many of his electronics blew up, I told him it sounded like a dropped neutral and to turn off the main and send me some pictures in the morning.

It was a FPE stab-lok panel that looked in good shape but the problem was a disintegrated neutral, no fault of the panel but rather the installer. I still told him to get some quotes for a new panel in the near future.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have used them to retrofit some Trumbull panels built into a block wall with good success. Took some time to layout, but once installed, the wiring went quickly. I have hundreds of FPE and Zinsco panels in the housing units I work on. Waiting for some insurance or Agency initiative to sell some more of these. The only issue is many are in clothes closets and not sure if that will fly.


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## Circuit Tracer (Feb 5, 2015)

All PFE, Zinsco and Wadsworth panels should be changed.

Mike


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I forgot to post some before and afters of this job until I saw it pop back up. 
The panel was not completely finished when I took the after photos. It's not the best looking install I've done but it turned out decent.


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## Circuit Tracer (Feb 5, 2015)

Much better : )


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

a lot safer too!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JohnJ65 said:


> I forgot to post some before and afters of this job until I saw it pop back up.
> The panel was not completely finished when I took the after photos. It's not the best looking install I've done but it turned out decent.



Looks good. :thumbup:

I noticed you're using insulated staples. I always thought that we only used them here in New England, but apparently not since I see you're in Ohio. What brand are those and are they available at your supply houses?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Looks good!

When you replaced the panel did you notice how the stab on the 50 was buggered up?

Replacing the panel was a good move!


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Looks good!
> 
> When you replaced the panel did you notice how the stab on the 50 was buggered up?
> 
> Replacing the panel was a good move!


No I did not notice it, do you mean on the breaker or on the buss?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

JohnJ65 said:


> No I did not notice it, do you mean on the breaker or on the buss?


The top stab on the buss..had to enlarge the pix to see it but your pix had good resolution.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

This week has been replacing the FPE electric heaters that didn't get warm.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> This week has been replacing the FPE electric heaters that didn't get warm.


Lol, the opposite of what usually happens. :laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Grainger had a Dayton that was almost an exact match so it worked out well.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> The top stab on the buss..had to enlarge the pix to see it but your pix had good resolution.


Didn't see that till now, did not seem to be a problem though.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

I have another FPE panel to change out soon. Maybe I can start a "save the world from FPE" thread my area is chock full of them. Lol


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

On the road today to fix this and find underground fault.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JohnJ65 said:


> I have another FPE panel to change out soon. Maybe I can start a "save the world from FPE" thread my area is chock full of them. Lol


I was visiting a friend in central Ohio and saw Pushmatic everywhere. That must be because it used to be made in Bellefontaine, OH.


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## JohnJ65 (May 8, 2008)

MTW said:


> I was visiting a friend in central Ohio and saw Pushmatic everywhere. That must be because it used to be made in Bellefontaine, OH.


Quite a few of my customers have those. I have swapped out several on real estate deals where the home inspectors tell the customers they no longer make breakers for them. Somehow I'm able to get them, but you have to take their money before someone else does.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

JohnJ65 said:


> Quite a few of my customers have those. I have swapped out several on real estate deals where the home inspectors tell the customers they no longer make breakers for them. Somehow I'm able to get them, but you have to take their money before someone else does.



But if its FPE the home inspectors are now recommended saying its not a problem:no:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/electric-off-good-reason-97886/

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/federal-pacific-panel-98122/index2.html


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