# Fans trip GFCI rcpts when turned off.



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Sorry Charlie but this site is for electrical industry professionals only. We are not allowed to advise DIY due to the inherent risk of death in working with electricity. 



Good news is this site has a sister site over at www.DIYChatroom.com where there are plenty of good people ready to help you out. It's fast, free & easy to sign up and make the same post there that you made here.

Good luck with your project.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

prob levitons


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Why? Are they near a sink? Look up "counter EMF".


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

joebanana said:


> Why? Are they near a sink? Look up "counter EMF".


My EMF counter was broke,,, it stunk to have to count by hand.


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## bberg (Aug 27, 2015)

I am a licensed master electrician (MN EA003186).
I assume that there is some back emf involved, but have not run into this situation before.
I thought that this forum was to help other electricians that have run into new problems they haven't seen before.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I probably owe an apology. I woke up at 2am and came into the office and made coffe and turned on the computer and saw your post.


It starts out with "I have ..." and I took that to mean DIY.


My mistake.


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## bberg (Aug 27, 2015)

Legrand


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> My EMF counter was broke,,, it stunk to have to count by hand.


I just guess. :biggrin:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I think your neutrals for the fans are mixed up and or shared with the GFI circuits


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

bberg said:


> I am a licensed master electrician (MN EA003186).
> I assume that there is some back emf involved, but have not run into this situation before.
> I thought that this forum was to help other electricians that have run into new problems they haven't seen before.


 The clue was, "when I turn the fans off". This used to be a common problem with refrigerators, and deep freezes people had in their garages. Motors in particular sometimes cause tripping, depending on the GFI manufacturer, and the motor.
I used to run into it occasionally doing residential service calls.
Just relocate a non-GFI recep.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

would be interesting to put a plug end on the fan then unplug it to see if it trips. Basic gfci looks for a balance between live and neutral. Break the live with a switch and the fan will act as a generator for a millisecond until the magnetic field collapses which may be seen as power on the neutral. (thats a total guess)


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I just dont know what the OP did with the GFCI and if the fan is hooked up before the GFCI or after the GFCI .,, it may affect how it ran.


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## Kawicrash (Aug 21, 2018)

....


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

eddy current said:


> I think your neutrals for the fans are mixed up and or shared with the GFI circuits


#1 reason :wink:

If, from what the OP said, that 'separate' circuit GFCIs are tripping, then just disconnect the load side from the other circuits, and if the problem goes away, then indeed it's a shared neutral problem.


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

lighterup said:


> prob levitons


Actually P&S


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

A GFI feeding a GFI will also cause the upstream one to trip with light Loads..


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> A GFI feeding a GFI will also cause the upstream one to trip with light Loads..


with all due respect I do not believe this to be true


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Welcome to Electrician Talk bberg.
Thanks for taking the time to fill out your profile.

Sometimes us gate watchers get a little spooky. You are in the right place.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> with all due respect I do not believe this to be true


he may have meant one gfci feeding off the "load" side...(going to
another gfci unit from that load side of the first one).

I have seen this and the problem (AFAIK) was rectified by changing
the wiring method to feed the 2nd one off the line side of the first gfci.
I say AFAIK cause I heard nothing different since the service call.


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## bberg (Aug 27, 2015)

I think that I need to make this a little more clear.
Shed has a 100A Panel. 
Ckt 1 is 15A and feeds the Ceiling Fans.
Ckt 2 is 20A general purpose with just receptacles on ckt.
Ckt 3 is 20A general purpose with just receptacles on ckt.
All circuits have a GFCI Legrand receptacle in first opening on the circuit.

If the fans are turned off with the manufacturer supplied 5 speed fan control switch the GFCIs on circuits 1, 2 or 3 may all trip or only 1 of them may trip.
If the fan is turned of with the 15A breaker there is no problem.

Obviously there is some kind of noise travelling from the fan switch back to the main panel then on to the other circuits that the GFCI receptacles don't like.
When I have a chance, I will go back and replace the fan manufacturer fan control with a Lutron fan control and see if this helps. My only other option that I can see at this point is to add a single pole switch in series with the fan control and use that switch to turn off the fans. This would keep the noise from going back to the main panel.

The fans are "Turn of the Century® Industrial 56" White Indoor Ceiling Fan"

For those taking the time to provide legitimate responses to this question, I thank you for your time. 
For those making smart ass comments, you're not funny or helpful.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

lighterup said:


> he may have meant one gfci feeding off the "load" side...(going to
> another gfci unit from that load side of the first one).
> 
> I have seen this and the problem (AFAIK) was rectified by changing
> ...


Yes, that’s what I was saying. 
Thank you for clarifying it. :smile:




readydave8 said:


> with all due respect I do not believe this to be true


That’s ok, I hope you never have to search for that mystery trip. 
But if you do, please give Lighterup the credit for telling you about it. :wink:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

bberg said:


> I think that I need to make this a little more clear.
> Shed has a 100A Panel.
> Ckt 1 is 15A and feeds the Ceiling Fans.
> Ckt 2 is 20A general purpose with just receptacles on ckt.
> ...



Does it happen when nothing is plugged into the receptacles?

Could a neutral be touching the TW or case in the fan?

Is the controller using ground as a neutral?

Now that you explained it better, you do have a strange and interesting issue. 

As for the smart Azz replies, blame it on the seemingly DYI thought some of us had. Don’t take offense, it will cause you pain over time and weakens the heart.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

I have seen gfci's trip when a customer put a smart phone on the counter in the same vicinity. It may be a phone or something other than the fan. We changed the recep to a different brand and the problem went away.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

tmessner said:


> I have seen gfci's trip when a customer put a smart phone on the counter in the same vicinity. It may be a phone or something other than the fan. We changed the recep to a different brand and the problem went away.


My electric razor trips my bath gfci and that's the only time I ever see the thing trip...sometimes you have to turn it on & off real fast a couple times.

I know cheap thrills


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## bberg (Aug 27, 2015)

I am going to write this off as a defective fan controller from the fan manufacturer.
I replaced the old 5 speed fan controller with a new Lutron 3 speed fan controller and have not had a problem.
Thanks all for your ideas.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

lighterup said:


> he may have meant one gfci feeding off the "load" side...(going to
> another gfci unit from that load side of the first one).


I have found GFI's not working due to being fed off the load side of another (tripped) GFI

But never thought that the 2nd GFI caused the 1st one to trip, although in some cases wondered if the extra length of wire contributed

I do not believe that feeding a GFI from the load side of a GFI will cause trip

But have been wrong before and am perfectly willing to change my opinion as soon as I read explanation as to why (probably even if I don't completely understand explanation)

I have always thought that GFI works with CT that causes trip if unequal current "hot" & "neutral"? (grounded and ungrounded conductors)


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

readydave8 said:


> I have found GFI's not working due to being fed off the load side of another (tripped) GFI
> 
> But never thought that the 2nd GFI caused the 1st one to trip, although in some cases wondered if the extra length of wire contributed
> 
> I do not believe that feeding a GFI from the load side of a GFI will cause trip


Having 2 (or even 3 4 5 ...) GFCIs feeding each other is a pain in the butt to find which one trips ... But I'm with you Dave, I have never seen anything that says a GFCI on the load side of a GFCI will actually cause it to trip easier.

As you said though, if there is evidence of this, I'd be all ears.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Some primitive fan speed controllers have MOV's that are connected internally to the EGC. That will play hell with GFCI's. You did well to change the fan speed controller.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> I have found GFI's not working due to being fed off the load side of another (tripped) GFI
> 
> But never thought that the 2nd GFI caused the 1st one to trip, although in some cases wondered if the extra length of wire contributed
> 
> ...


I don't wire this way. 
To me it would be redundant...akin to say...installing a gfci breaker on a circuit and then installing gfci units on that circuit. 

Don't make sense to me.

I just seen something like this on a service where this tripping problem
was occurring . I could not find anything wrong , but I did notice the 
gfi being fed from load side of another gfi and changed it out.

I then was not seeing the tripping problem after that and called it a day.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I have seen them wired that way enough times that its the first thing I look for when line side of GFCI receptacle is dead. First I check n-g for continuity, if no continuity I suspect being fed from load side of a GFCI, when they trip neutral as well as hot is open (unlike tripped breaker or light switch off)

of course a cable that been cut in two with sawzall shows same symptoms


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Fun when you find daisy chained gfci protecting each other. Did a gfci test on one receptacle then it wouldn't reset. Found i had tripped 8 gfci and the gfci breaker.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I probably owe an apology.


AKA a closet Canadian.:vs_laugh:


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

Was called out to a house once where the homeowner couldn't get the patio GFCI to set even though 120V between line and neutral. Turns out it was at the end of 5 daisy chained GFCI receptacles. Don't know why that would make a difference but pig tailing all those receptacles instead solved the problem.


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