# S.o.j



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Figure I start a new thread,I would like to here peoples opinion on this,In my local we have something called soj,solicit your own job.which means this;If your laid off you can open the book of signatory contractors and call around and get your own job,and the contractor can also call the men directly and hire who they want.

We also have a system to keep things in check when work is slow,when unemployment gets to be 3-4%(not sure of the exact number)we go to a 50-50 system of hiring which means if a contractor hire someone through soj,then his next hire has to be off the bench.This is so the bench keeps moving.

I think this is a very good system,it creates competition among the men and your reputation as a worker means something.It also allows the contractor to compete for the most talented foreman and labor.

Here in philadelphia,most trades don't have this system,If you get laid off you sit on the bench until your number is called.From what I understand most of the IBEW does not have soj.I feel this system should be mandatory for the whole IBEW.I believe this is one of the main reasons why my local has grown from 30 contractors and a 1000 members in 1995 to 350 contractors and 4000 members today.

It allows for competiton and growth,you can't have one without the other.I like to here peoples opinions on this and if there local has a similiar system in place,if not would you like to,why?or why not?


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

sounds like the IBEW ( philly ) has it together.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The problem with the soj system is that is requires the contractor to hire one lazy bastard who was perfectly content to wait it out on the bench for every self-motivated guy who went out and found his own work. The bench guy gets the fruits of the effort of the soj guy.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

does a contractor have to keep the lazy bastard ? run his ass back to the hall and get another one. or is it that easy.?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

also, doesn't this system kind of go against the whole premise of the union?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

paul d. said:


> does a contractor have to keep the lazy bastard ? run his ass back to the hall and get another one. or is it that easy.?


honestly? depends on the contractor and his relationship with the BA...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> also, doesn't this system kind of go against the whole premise of the union?


 
But a step in the right direction.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

oldman said:


> also, doesn't this system kind of go against the whole premise of the union?


The fact that the soj system even exists is more or less an admission that the union is not doing a good enough job at keeping guys working. It's a good program, save for the fact that some areas force you to take one for one.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

you two may be right, but I remember a discussion here where a union electrician stated that he did his own "SOJ" and was criticized by his 'brothers' for thinking that he was more important than them...that his family was more important then theirs...

i just find it amusing...


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

anything to keep good guys working with contractors that WANT men they're familiar with. let the bad ones " hit the road " ( travelers )


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

oldman said:


> you two may be right, but I remember a discussion here where a union electrician stated that he did his own "SOJ" and was criticized by his 'brothers' for thinking that he was more important than them...that his family was more important then theirs...
> 
> i just find it amusing...


That guy must not have assimilated into the Borg properly.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

MD shunk,you really have it in for the union dont you?Not all the guys on the bench are lazy bastards.Some times work slows down and guys get laid off its a part of the buisness.I dont see how it goes against the "whole premiss of union" The whole premiss of the union is to improve the working conditions,situations,and oppertunities for the labor.I don't see this system impeading any of these.
And no it dosn't force the contractor to higher a lazy S.O.B. If the guy sucks then he's gone,bottom line. And because of the soj your reputation follows you.
Reread my post you don't get forced to hire a guy off the bench when you hire soj.when unemployment is at 3% you hire a soj,then your NEXT hire is of the bench.Dosn't matter how your hired if you suck then you gone.

When I first posted on this forum I tried to be fair and unbias,but it seems any positive ideas or practices from the IBEW on this forum just gets twisted and trashed;
"That guy must not have assimilated into the Borg properly."
"he did his own "SOJ" and was criticized by his 'brothers' for thinking that he was more important than them...that his family was more important then theirs...
i just find it amusing... "
"The fact that the soj system even exists is more or less an admission that the union is not doing a good enough job at keeping guys working. It's a good program, save for the fact that some areas force you to take one for one. "
"The problem with the soj system is that is requires the contractor to hire one lazy bastard who was perfectly content to wait it out on the bench for every self-motivated guy who went out and found his own work. The bench guy gets the fruits of the effort of the soj guy."

Jesus,the whole thread turned into a lets ripp this union thing to shreads.
The IBEW in philly is over a hundred years old and the soj has been here sinse the begining.
The system works. We constantly set and break records for man-hours worked year after year.
Rarely does the 50/50 part of the equation get put into effect.
We almost never have 3% unemployment.
I really don't see it as bad thing.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

any other locals have this program ?? new york ? chicago?? ( wilson ?? )


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Nj isn't. Vic, there is a lot of doublespeak on here from union electricians. If you think that pointing this out is union bashing, then there is a much larger issue. 

Much of the contradictions are simply because the average j-man only knows what he told. 

But if you feel its bashing, so be it.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Sounds like a good system, but around here the good guys are never without a job. I getting laid off on 6/30/09 and I have had 3 other company's call me or tell me that they have a position for me on 7/1/09.I'm a firm beliver that your reputation will follow you where ever you go and if its a good one it will help you out of a hole when you get in one.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Sounds like a good system, but around here the good guys are never without a job. I getting laid off on 6/30/09 and I have had 3 other company's call me or tell me that they have a position for me on 7/1/09.I'm a firm beliver that your reputation will follow you where ever you go and if its a good one it will help you out of a hole when you get in one.


Yes but the basic union rule is you are no better than you brother. By many locals rules you are screwing an equally worthy man.

The next step would be a pay scale that was based on your skills.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> The next step would be a pay scale that was based on your skills.


When I worked union out of 379 I was General Foreman and making GF scale plus $4 an hour and I had paid vacation and holidays that non of the others had.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> MD shunk,you really have it in for the union dont you?


Do you understand as an owner a union is nothing but a PIA, there is little or no benefits for an owner.

I have asked before what is the benefit for an owner and to date no one (except me) has come up with one benefit. 
Why should anyone going in business want to be union. By your own admission you received your training in an open shop so that blows training off the table. 



Two companies basically the same size 20 employees. The open shop guys percentage of profit is 30%-40% higher than the union shop. My friend has a 45' Hatteras built, a bigger house and about the same amount of debt. You want the most for your 40 hours (and if you employer receives 30 hours work he is lucky, this is not a slam but a fact for all shops) why shouldn't an owner want more for his 80-160 hours a week 52 weeks a year.



> When I first posted on this forum I tried to be fair and unbiased,but it seems any positive ideas or practices from the IBEW on this forum just gets twisted and trashed;
> 
> .


 
You did? DAMN I am getting forgetful. Remember that this is a HIGHLY vilotile, subject many of the open shop men association's with the union has been WELL rough, trash treatment. Many of the union men see open shop workers as STEALING their work.

These two do not make for a good relationship. Which is why I would have banned this subject on this forum. Men that would otherwise be friends argue over union/open shop. And neither will win because there are good sides to both arguments.


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

paul d. said:


> any other locals have this program ?? new york ? chicago?? ( wilson ?? )


 No ,Paul nothing like that in Chicago,for years we had a seniority system which I personally liked but which was ended because it was deemed to violate the union principle of equality in everything. I didn't like it in my early days as much as I did later. But I had to agree that was basically unfair to place anyone ahead of his brothers. It didn't really affect me personally because I spent over 30 years with one shop BillW


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

thanks bill, NOW go back to chasin girls, drinkin beer, fishin..... :whistling2:


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## wwilson174 (Apr 25, 2008)

paul d. said:


> thanks bill, NOW go back to chasin girls, drinkin beer, fishin..... :whistling2:


 Well, two out of three maybe.BillW


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> MD shunk,you really have it in for the union dont you?


Uh, no. Not really. I probably should type out my bio someplace. 



slickvic277 said:


> Not all the guys on the bench are lazy bastards.


Fair enough, but they are at least less motivated than the SOJ guys. That, in itself, is enough to put the bench guy in the 'lazy bastard' category in my mind. If a program like SOJ exists, and a man does not take advantage of it, what do you call him?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

IBEW needs to drop the "B" I saw less and less "brotherhood" and more its all about "me" in my last years as a member. The youngsters would turn out become a foreman and then you would never see them at a union meeting. Watching the young guys was like watching crabs in a bucket everyone trying to pull someone down so they would be on top.We have a generation that has no respect for what the guys before them went through so they could have a union. Last job I worked conditions were breaking down we had to beg for a heater so we could have a warmup room for lunch in the dead of winter I remember a time when asked for heat if it was not there by the end of the day guys woulkd be standing in the parking lot the next and I mean everyu man on the job. Try that today and if you are lucky you might get half and most will be the old hands .


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

rewire said:


> IBEW needs to drop the "B" I saw less and less "brotherhood" and more its all about "me" ....


Good! That's a step in the right direction. I don't work to better another man. I work to better me and mine, and that does not include you.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

william1978 said:


> When I worked union out of 379 I was General Foreman and making GF scale plus $4 an hour and I had paid vacation and holidays that non of the others had.


 
Actually in our area most service truck drivers make over scale and additionally bennies, and for the foremen over scale is mandatory. Typically I'd like to think the best or better are in this position though on big jobs often and of the sub-foremen are better pushers than electricians.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> Actually in our area most service truck drivers make over scale and additionally bennies, and for the foremen over scale is mandatory. Typically I'd like to think the best or better are in this position though on big jobs often and of the sub-foremen are better pushers than electricians.


That is great. I don't think there is enough spread from JW to Foreman and to General Foreman. The way ya'll do it up there sounds like the way it should be done all over.:thumbsup:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Good! That's a step in the right direction. I don't work to better another man. I work to better me and mine, and that does not include you.


 That is what everybody use to say was the "rat" mentality and that was what seperated the union guys but now you see everyone is out for themselves even in the union shops.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

rewire said:


> That is what everybody use to say was the "rat" mentality and that was what seperated the union guys but now you see everyone is out for themselves even in the union shops.


Then put me down in the 'rat' column. :thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

rewire said:


> That is what everybody use to say was the "rat" mentality and that was what seperated the union guys but now you see everyone is out for themselves even in the union shops.


 
That is exactly correct. Everybody is out for me,myself and I.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Then put me down in the 'rat' column. :thumbsup:


I second that.:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

william1978 said:


> That is exactly correct. Everybody is out for me,myself and I.


You say that like it's a bad thing, somehow. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what's wrong with that.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing, somehow. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what's wrong with that.


 No, I meant it in a good way, That is the exact way I am.:thumbsup:


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing, somehow. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what's wrong with that.


 when I was a worker bee I saw the benefits of collective barganing not just for wages but also for working conditions.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

human nature is funny......we are all equals, if you have more than me and I want what you have....but once I get more (become a shop mutt and no longer have to sit the bench), then heck with ya...I gots mine...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

oldman said:


> human nature is funny......we are all equals, if you have more than me and I want what you have....but once I get more (become a shop mutt and no longer have to sit the bench), then heck with ya...I gots mine...


YOU MUST BE OLD to be so wise.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

oldman said:


> human nature is funny......we are all equals, if you have more than me and I want what you have....but once I get more (become a shop mutt and no longer have to sit the bench), then heck with ya...I gots mine...


 
I have seen it happen many of times.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

What does the whole 'rat' thing mean anyways?

To me the rat has always been the union gf that goes out and starts up his own non-union shop.

It is what it is, but does the word come from being in the rat race? Or going for the cheese?? What IS the deal?


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