# Resi installation



## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Helping a friend with some rewiring in exchange for help with some 5/8 gyp. sheathing on my house later. Think I get the better deal on that:thumbsup:

Much of the original install is intact and in goood condition. Have not done any research, but the house, area, and a few other things make me think 30's.

First pics just wiring methods, some fixture pics and a disconnect I'll add in a reply to this post.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

s.kelly said:


> Helping a friend with some rewiring in exchange for help with some 5/8 gyp. sheathing on my house later. Think I get the better deal on that:thumbsup:
> 
> Much of the original install is intact and in goood condition. Have not done any research, but the house, area, and a few other things make me think 30's.
> 
> First pics just wiring methods, some fixture pics and a disconnect I'll add in a reply to this post.


 K & T. Knob and Tube wiring.

In some older houses, it is still found, and fully functional.

I personally, recommend to H O s, to have it replaced.

Here, we can't tap into it, to extend a circuit. Not accepted.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Fixtures still being used until this week. There are 2 2 lamp and one of the 3 lamp all the same style. Going to see if I can find new lampholders to reqire them before we reinstall. 

Got an old house myself, so I am envious of all this old stuff still in the place. My place only has original trim, doors and most of the windows.


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## Island Electric (May 9, 2011)

Yeah that is terrible!

I have a kitchen remodel coming up (Gutted) at the end of July where I know when they open the ceiling we are going to see it. The bad part is this person has no idea what he is getting himself into. With the kitchen going on I'm not sure he will be able to handle the cost of the extras. I know it will not pass inspection if the inspector sees it. Or does that mean it existing if I do not touch it?????? LOL:laughing:


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## ohiosparky99 (Nov 12, 2009)

Also remember that knob and tube can't have that blown in insulation around it, I know it happens all the time, but just a heads up


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

My old boss used to call those pendant lights that often have a metal shell socket a "suicide light." :laughing:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Peter D said:


> My old boss used to call those pendant lights that often have a metal shell socket a "suicide light." :laughing:


 You still see them in older cop movies, when they are trying to get the perp to confess! Just before they bring out the rubber hoses! :laughing:


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

No longer code, but in it's original state was one of the safest wiring methods.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with BrianA really a safe wiring method, even though outdated. This particular installation is in really good condition, with the exception of one or two poor splices to modern wiring methods.

The one or two splices, insulation around ithe K&T, and ease of access led me to recommend they rewire it, though when budget allows 70 or 80 year old wiring is due no matter what. The system was functioning and has not showed any signs of problems so far.

I have run into K&T in the past, but never so much that was still so intact.

The armored cable to K&T junction point I thought was especially interesting, never seen one of those.


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> My old boss used to call those pendant lights that often have a metal shell socket a "suicide light." :laughing:


If they are properly wired,
With the outer shell,
connectted to a bonded neutral,
As they should be,
Then they are NOT dangerous.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Oh man. A Colt fuse box, I have been patiently waiting for a long time to find one of those in the wild. I drill out the rivets on old panels like that (that I remove) and tack the plates up on my garage shelving.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> Oh man. A Colt fuse box, I have been patiently waiting for a long time to find one of those in the wild. I drill out the rivets on old panels like that (that I remove) and tack the plates up on my garage shelving.


I have an old colt main disconnect from probably the 30's that had the guts ripped out. It was still evident it used to be the service connection so cool enough. If this lady ever cleans it all out, I am sure she knows to call me, but I think she values the history alot too.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

*You can't always see the danger...*

I see a ton of K&T in Victorian twins -about 90% of the buildings I work in.

The main danger for the wiring in the walls and obviously the attic is *moist insulation forming a long-term, low-level short.* This can heat up and dry out combustible materials in the attic -especially hot dry wood. The tricky thing is that, usually this wire _*appears*_ to be in great shape -after all, it's strung between knobs and doesn't get touched/pulled/wiggled.
If there is no insulation around it, K&T generally has enough air around it to dissipate any heat.

*However, the system is only as safe as it's weakest link.* So the place I find to be most indicative of the wire condition is above light fixtures. But receptacles can also be dangerous too. Why?

1). *Over the past 80+ years, home owners often have screwed 100 watt bulbs into those fixtures without knowing any better.* The heat from the bulb (probably not the current) can dry out wires and make the insulation brittle and easily crumble away. Sometimes they use 'socket splitters' so they can plug (2) bulbs into the socket of the lamp (these may not be so bad because the bulb is further from the ceiling and can dissipate heat better).

2). The wires are often in old boxes with no clamps; wires can wiggle when changing bulbs so if they insulation is crumbing, you can get an easy short -and since they are often not grounded, *the fixture can get hot*.

3). *A hot short can potentially spread:* I have also seen a hot metal ceiling in 2 stores and 1 fancy house. In houses where they once had gas lighting, the *gas pipes are often used to hang the fixture box (sconces and ceiling fixtures) and the old pipes can become hot as well* -IF they've been disconnected. If they haven't, the gas pipes can act as an unofficial ground. 

4). Since K&T systems often provide few receptacles in a room, outlets may have become overloaded by modern conveniences that the systems weren't designed to handle like (older) A.C. units, space heaters, hot plates, hair dryers, tons of crap on multiple extension cords, etc. * The receptacles are jiggled by years of use (vacuum cleaners, moving tenants, etc.) with can make insulation flake away.*

5). There is rarely the danger of a short spreading through a gas pipe, but a *hot cover plate beside a radiator could be unpleasant*.

6). Old-school cloth-insulated BX may get hot if it's ungrounded as well.

7). K&T was originally supplied by fuse boxes. *When a HO or tenant kept blowing a 15 amp fuse, they'd often run out and buy a "green" fuse (30 amp). I've seen this countless times.* Again, 30 amps running through a length of K&T in the basement ceiling probably won't show up as ugly and brunt, but where it goes into boxes and where it terminates on screws may not be pretty. I have found bare wire outside a light box in an insulated ceiling and even many receptacles as well. Usually the deteriorated insulation/bare wire problem is limited to 1" or 2".

8). The asphalt/cloth stuff on the outside (I think it's called "loom") can be cracked or missing, although it generally protects the wires' insulation if it's still there.

9). K&T was often spliced outside of junction boxes and then soldiered together with a torch. High heat stresses copper *and flux can speed corrosion. So if you're looking at a nicely taped up free-floating splice, you really have no idea of what is under that tape...
*
Not trying to be an ass here, but I work with this stuff every week.

Peace,
Greg


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> I see a ton of K&T in Victorian twins -about 90% of the buildings I work in.
> 
> The main danger for the wiring in the walls and obviously the attic is *moist insulation forming a long-term, low-level short.* This can heat up and dry out combustible materials in the attic -especially hot dry wood. The tricky thing is that, usually this wire _*appears*_ to be in great shape -after all, it's strung between knobs and doesn't get touched/pulled/wiggled.
> If there is no insulation around it, K&T generally has enough air around it to dissipate any heat.
> ...



Very good post.

That is why I always advise H O s to have it de-commissioned. 

I am sure, most insurance companies will say the same.


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