# Bit of a rough day at work today



## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

We installed a heat pump for someone this morning. They have a 200A federal pioneer generator panel , when i was taking the cover off the panel i had to turn off the utility supply disconnect of the interlock to get the cover out from under the tie bar. When I did that smoke started coming out of a tv and it ruined a computer. Turns out whoever wired the panel 25 or so years ago had 13 circuits on the utility only side with the neutrals on with the generator side neutral bar. My journey man told the home owner I had no other option but turn it off in order to remove the cover and that the panel wasn’t wired correctly originally which is why it caused damage. He said that wouldn’t happen in an outage situation because there’d be no power. The company that originally wired it is long since out of business and apparently the home owner wants us to pay the damages. The company I work for has 3 owners, they all said it’s not our fault we did what we had to not knowing the panel was wired incorrectly, one said he’d not offer them a cent and the office manager owner said it’s easier to pay then fight. My journeyman explained to the owner what happened and separated out the 13 misplaced neutrals and put them on the correct side free of charge but apparently we’re still paying. Just a crappy way to end the week.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Well look at it this way, better smoke out of their TV than out of you.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I wouldn’t pay to fix it. I’d say to them, prove it!


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

mburtis said:


> Well look at it this way, better smoke out of their TV than out of you.


Oh for sure , it just burns me that something was damaged as a result of someone else’s mistake and we’re getting blamed for it. The guys a retired mechanical engineer and understood what went wrong but still wants compensated.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Phillipd said:


> Oh for sure , it just burns me that something was damaged as a result of someone else’s mistake and we’re getting blamed for it. The guys a retired mechanical engineer and understood what went wrong but still wants compensated.


Wrong, but how much does it cost to be right? That's what the owners need to decide. 

I'm with you, being held liable for someone else's mistake is wrong.


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## 210860 (Apr 12, 2021)

Phillip.. It's fairly obvious, this is bothering you a lot. But your in the "Service Industry" part of this craft, in dealing w/residental dwelling house calls.

Dude, which it's possible you could run into situations like this again. *You can't always be responsible Phillip for the individual, that you're working behind.

It comes w/ time, and you'll remember this particular situation on the next call, and every individual call throughout the time in the trade.

*Write it up as evolution Phillip, during your Craft. *Nobody got hurt dude, a few things got "smoked" & the superiors that are training you, all agreeing that you are not @ blame.

Again telling it bothers you, and that's why it's going to make you a better Electrician. _Don't beat yourself up w/ it dude, everyone is prone to mistake. (and you don't even own this one_)..

Have yourself a good weekend fella.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Phillipd said:


> We installed a heat pump for someone this morning. They have a 200A federal pioneer generator panel , when i was taking the cover off the panel i had to turn off the utility supply disconnect of the interlock to get the cover out from under the tie bar. When I did that smoke started coming out of a tv and it ruined a computer. Turns out whoever wired the panel 25 or so years ago had 13 circuits on the utility only side with the neutrals on with the generator side neutral bar. My journey man told the home owner I had no other option but turn it off in order to remove the cover and that the panel wasn’t wired correctly originally which is why it caused damage. He said that wouldn’t happen in an outage situation because there’d be no power. The company that originally wired it is long since out of business and apparently the home owner wants us to pay the damages. The company I work for has 3 owners, they all said it’s not our fault we did what we had to not knowing the panel was wired incorrectly, one said he’d not offer them a cent and the office manager owner said it’s easier to pay then fight. My journeyman explained to the owner what happened and separated out the 13 misplaced neutrals and put them on the correct side free of charge but apparently we’re still paying. Just a crappy way to end the week.


I know you don't think its fair but, its just the cost of doing business. I would have paid for the TV and computer but, I would have either charged them to repair the neutral problem or had them bring in another electrician to fix it before continuing the job. Or, if I really liked the customer, I would just have paid for both. It's really up to the owner and what they feel like doing. 
Bottom line, don't sweat it, you did your job properly and sounds to me very professionally. 






I have a story about my brother working for an engineer that convinced him a sawsall cutting a stud wouldn't knock a clock off a wall.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

Dell3c said:


> Phillip.. It's fairly obvious, this is bothering you a lot. But your in the "Service Industry" part of this craft, in dealing w/residental dwelling house calls.
> 
> Dude, which it's possible you could run into situations like this again. *You can't always be responsible Phillip for the individual, that you're working behind.
> 
> ...


Thank you Dell you as well.Monday morning will be business as usual.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It’s why we have insurance. It sounds like your employer has your back and that’s what’s important. I might offer to pay half. If the customer insists that the company pays the full amount, you know he just wants free new stuff.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Southeast Power said:


> I have a story about my brother working for an engineer that convinced him a sawsall cutting a stud wouldn't knock a clock off a wall.


Sounds interesting.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

99cents said:


> It’s why we have insurance. It sounds like your employer has your back and that’s what’s important. I might offer to pay half. If the customer insists that the company pays the full amount, you know he just wants free new stuff.


That’s for sure. Talk around the shop end of the day was going forward when we run into one of those panels again we ask the home owner to power off any sensitive devices then after they give us the ok throw the main breaker till we can put the cover back on


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Phillipd said:


> That’s for sure. Talk around the shop end of the day was going forward when we run into one of those panels again we ask the home owner to power off any sensitive devices then after they give us the ok throw the main breaker till we can put the cover back on


I got breakers mixed up once and fed kitchen counter receptacles with 240V. The only thing plugged in was the HO’s laptop. I thought for sure I smoked it but then found out laptops are designed for both North American and European voltages. What a relief!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

oldsparky52 said:


> Sounds interesting.


I posted it here a few years ago, I’ll try to find it


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

It sucks but its part of business. 
When i had my computer repair business my insurance got hit with a bill for a office desk. I argued with my insurance that the leather top on the desk was already torn and the top was scratched before i got there plus i had used a blanket over the desk. Insurance just laughed and told me not to worry about it as this happens all the time and that's why you have insurance. 
Turns out the insurance also has a furniture repair specialist on the books so he fixed the scratch mark that the customer was complain about and left the rest of the desk the way it was found. Back then all the repair people in the area were know to each other so you could black list a customer which made me feel a little better about the situation.

What i do not understand is how opening the utility supply caused the problem. I can not picture how it happened unless the transfer was manually throw in to the generator side and the transfer also switch's the neutrals.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

99cents said:


> I got breakers mixed up once and fed kitchen counter receptacles with 240V. The only thing plugged in was the HO’s laptop. I thought for sure I smoked it but then found out laptops are designed for both North American and European voltages. What a relief!


My dad had something similar happen, but with a different result...

Newer apprentice was tasked with converting a 240 volt line to 120 (or maybe it was install a split receptacle on existing wiring... nearly the same thing). Ended up with 240 on the receptacle, and no one caught it before they left... Homeowner plugs in a vacuum, and it starts smoking, so they figure the vacuum had finally died, so they get their new vacuum and plug that in... Nearly 800$ later they had 2 new vacuums...


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

I was a second year, when my boss sent me just before lunch to do a service change.
By the time I was terminating the branch circuits, it was getting dark.
On one old 3 wire BX cable, the colours on the conductors had sorta blended. Actually, the colour was only a stripe on a dirty white wire. Yep, 240 to the customer's brand new colour TV (1972, so it wasn't cheap).
Boss paid, I learnt a lesson. 
Double and even triple check colours and numbers while terminating. 
**** happens and we learn from our mistakes.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

gpop said:


> It sucks but its part of business.
> When i had my computer repair business my insurance got hit with a bill for a office desk. I argued with my insurance that the leather top on the desk was already torn and the top was scratched before i got there plus i had used a blanket over the desk. Insurance just laughed and told me not to worry about it as this happens all the time and that's why you have insurance.
> Turns out the insurance also has a furniture repair specialist on the books so he fixed the scratch mark that the customer was complain about and left the rest of the desk the way it was found. Back then all the repair people in the area were know to each other so you could black list a customer which made me feel a little better about the situation.
> 
> What i do not understand is how opening the utility supply caused the problem. I can not picture how it happened unless the transfer was manually throw in to the generator side and the transfer also switch's the neutrals.


With the utility side of the interlock closed since it’s 3 pole single phase the neutral was disconnected to the generator portion of the panel. With the generator side of the interlock closed as well it had no neutral connection from the generator. With the main breaker still on and power being fed to the utility portion of the breaker the bottom circuits were all still hot but the way they were wired ,13 120v circuits all of a sudden lost their neutrals.Since the neutrals were tied together with the generator side neutrals and the generator side was disconnected , voltage was rising and dropping because the 13 utility side circuits were searching for a neutral from the generator side.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Phillipd said:


> That’s for sure. Talk around the shop end of the day was going forward when we run into one of those panels again we ask the home owner to power off any sensitive devices then after they give us the ok throw the main breaker till we can put the cover back on


Leaving that up to the customer sounds like it could be another lesson waiting to be learned. And who knows what's sensitive - with electronics in everything the furnace, refrigerator, microwave, etc. etc. may all be sensitive loads. 

Maybe the lesson here is, it would be better to make it a rule to just open all the breakers in the house until you've checked and you're satisfied things are as they should be. You could maybe make an exception for lights at the panel so you're not working in the dark.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

splatz said:


> Leaving that up to the customer sounds like it could be another lesson waiting to be learned. And who knows what's sensitive - with electronics in everything the furnace, refrigerator, microwave, etc. etc. may all be sensitive loads.
> 
> Maybe the lesson here is, it would be better to make it a rule to just open all the breakers in the house until you've checked and you're satisfied things are as they should be. You could maybe make an exception for lights at the panel so you're not working in the dark.


I agree with this except the lights part. Turn everything off until checked out (we have flashlights or temp lights).


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

oldsparky52 said:


> I agree with this except the lights part. Turn everything off until checked out (we have flashlights or temp lights).


That's definitely safest as long as everyone follows the rule and makes sure they have adequate light to make a good check. I wouldn't want to see someone bumbling around with their phone as a flashlight halfass checking it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

splatz said:


> That's definitely safest as long as everyone follows the rule and makes sure they have adequate light to make a good check. I wouldn't want to see someone bumbling around with their phone as a flashlight halfass checking it.


Cordless work lights and floodlights will give you way better light than a bare bulb in a utility room on the wrong side of a heating duct.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

I smoked a tv once too. I was installing a generator at a house and in a splice box on the generator line one of my crimps on the neutral pulled out when I put the cover on the splice box. When we tested the generator it fried the tv. The guy I was working for paid for a new tv since it was totally on us (me). 

If I was your boss now I would consider paying for the new tv and computer, as unfair as it is in your situation it may be cheaper than all the bad publicity when the HO tells everyone about the bad experience.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I smoked a tv once too. I was installing a generator at a house and in a splice box on the generator line one of my crimps on the neutral pulled out when I put the cover on the splice box. When we tested the generator it fried the tv. The guy I was working for paid for a new tv since it was totally on us (me).
> 
> If I was your boss now I would consider paying for the new tv and computer, as unfair as it is in your situation it may be cheaper than all the bad publicity when the HO tells everyone about the bad experience.


Having made my living working for myself the last 10 years or so in mostly small town residential, The most valuable thing i have is my name and reputation, I do everything i can to make the customer happy. Any time i know it is definitely my fault, i pay for it or what ever makes the customer happy. I would rather take a big loss on that job, than never work here again (aka work for some one else)


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

Almost Retired said:


> Having made my living working for myself the last 10 years or so in mostly small town residential, The most valuable thing i have is my name and reputation, I do everything i can to make the customer happy. Any time i know it is definitely my fault, i pay for it or what ever makes the customer happy. I would rather take a big loss on that job, than never work here again (aka work for some one else)


I think that’s where Boss in the office was coming from too


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Phillipd said:


> I think that’s where Boss in the office was coming from too


It doesnt take too many uh ohs to remember to tell ppl to unplug all electronics if you think there might be a chance of a problem.


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## Kline124398 (Oct 23, 2021)

I need some help with 3 ways


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Kline124398 said:


> I need some help with 3 ways



Its all in the way you explain it to the wife. Make her think it was her idea.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Kline124398 said:


> I need some help with 3 ways


@Kline124398 this is a pros-only site. If you're not an electrician and you need assistance please visit our sister site on www.DIYChatroom.com.
Thanks and be safe.


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## Kline124398 (Oct 23, 2021)

gpop said:


> Its all in the way you explain it to the wife. Make her think it was her idea.


Wish it my mom tho


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## POPS ELECTRIC (May 27, 2014)

If this customer is a retired mechanical engineer, I’d bet he was the one who installed the 3-pole disconnect on the neutral


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

The moment when you realize that your day could always be worse…..

I was working in a funeral home today and had to pass by this in the basement…..


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> The moment when you realize that your day could always be worse…..
> 
> I was working in a funeral home today and had to pass by this in the basement…..


We do maintenance work at a crematorium, it’s a nice tidy place but in the business area of the building everything in the hard to reach areas is covered in grey soot.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

That grey soot is aunt Ethel and uncle George......


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

jw0445 said:


> That grey soot is aunt Ethel and uncle George......


Exactly


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

jw0445 said:


> That grey soot is aunt Ethel and uncle George......


I’d consider throwing my tools away after that job.


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