# Jlarson's Solve this Service Call



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ok no pictures sorry. I was on a call a while back, small water well system. I already know the problem, fixed it and collected the check, and I'm not fishing for the answer. 

Here's the deal, small shed with an AZ style all in one service. A 60 amp 2 pole breaker feeds a small 30 amp fused disco with 30 amp FRN fuses about 60 feet away with a 4 wire UF feeder. 

Off of this disco a 1/2 Hp submersible 3 wire 240v well pump and it's controller are connected, and a 1/2 hp booster pump wired for 240 with a built in pressure switch are connected. 

_The problem; at random times either the L1 fuse in the disco or the 60 amp feeder breaker will trip. The pump motors meg and amp out fine. All voltages are good and the total run current for both motors is 17 amps/leg. Environment does hit freezing at night at times._


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I believe the correct answer is 43. :thumbsup:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Ok no pictures sorry. I was on a call a while back, small water well system. I already know the problem, fixed it and collected the check, and I'm not fishing for the answer.
> 
> Here's the deal, small shed with an AZ style all in one service. A 60 amp 2 pole breaker feeds a small 30 amp fused disco with 30 amp FRN fuses about 60 feet away with a 4 wire UF feeder.
> 
> ...


Water in the pump froze enough to stall the motor and burn out the fuse.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Water in the pump froze enough to stall the motor and burn out the fuse.
> 
> ~Matt


Nope, it happens at all times not just at night, but that was my first thought when I started too cause there was no pipe insulation.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

It's definately the bypass valve.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> It's definately the bypass valve.


:no: Well fills a storage tank, booster draws off of that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> :no: Well fills a storage tank, booster draws off of that.


Aw, come on guys. It's so simple; maybe you need a refresher course? It's all ball bearings nowadays. 

That settles it. Fourty-three it is. Carry on.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Did you meg the UF?

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

My serious guess,...

since you mentioned this was a 4-wire feed, my guess is that there's a 120V heater of some sort connected to one leg and controlled by a thermostat.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Did you meg the UF?
> 
> ~Matt


Yep the evil DB UF cable  was all good. No PVC boxes spotted either.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> My serious guess,...
> 
> since you mentioned this was a 4-wire feed, my guess is that there's a 120V heater of some sort connected to one leg and controlled by a thermostat.


Nope no 120 volt loads all out door site. The 4 wire cable was probably a W.I.T. thing.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Yep the evil DB UF cable  was all good. No PVC boxes spotted either.


Those 2 pumps are the only 2 loads on that feed then?

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Those 2 pumps are the only 2 loads on that feed then?
> 
> ~Matt


Yep only those two.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Is it possible that they both start at the same time and cause too much of a draw that it trips the breaker?


~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Is it possible that they both start at the same time and cause too much of a draw that it trips the breaker?
> 
> 
> ~Matt


It is possible for both to run at the same time but that ain't it.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> It is possible for both to run at the same time but that ain't it.


The pressure switch doesnt work quite right and doesnt always shut the pumps off and they build pressure up till they OL.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> The pressure switch doesnt work quite right and doesnt always shut the pumps off and they build pressure up till they OL.
> 
> ~Matt


Nope but a good guess. The booster was almost brand new and so was the switch, problem isn't there.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> The pressure switch doesnt work quite right and doesnt always shut the pumps off and they build pressure up till they OL.
> 
> ~Matt


Water pumps are not positive displacement, so that can't be it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Water pumps are not positive displacement, so that can't be it.


Yep the booster is a centrifugal and the well is a Goulds multi stage submersible.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Ok no pictures sorry. I was on a call a while back, small water well system. I already know the problem, fixed it and collected the check, and I'm not fishing for the answer.
> 
> Here's the deal, small shed with an AZ style all in one service. A 60 amp 2 pole breaker feeds a small 30 amp fused disco with 30 amp FRN fuses about 60 feet away with a 4 wire UF feeder.
> 
> ...


What is an AZ style?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What is an AZ style?


The all in one meter socket and panel board deals like 220/221 always uses on his service changes. No snap in bushings involved here though.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Nope no 120 volt loads all out door site. The 4 wire cable was probably a W.I.T. thing.


Does it have anything to do with the 23.5 degree tilt of the Earth's axis?

If not, my next guess: Thousand Island Dressing.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> The all in one meter socket and panel board deals like 220/221 always uses on his service changes. No snap in bushings involved here though.


Did I say that???


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Does it have anything to do with the 23.5 degree tilt of the Earth's axis?
> 
> If not, my next guess: Thousand Island Dressing.


:no: and :no:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Did I say that???


No just throwing in random, unnecessary and misleading comments. :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Let me give a wild guess in here IIRC with centifuge pumps when the flowage at the max setting aka low pressure and high volume flowage it may possiblty it will trip the OCPD which I have see it once a while like that situation.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Let me give a wild guess in here IIRC with centifuge pumps when the flowage at the max setting aka low pressure and high volume flowage it may possiblty it will trip the OCPD which I have see it once a while like that situation.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


No but that is something to look at with centrifugal pumps.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Let me give a wild guess in here IIRC with centifuge pumps when the flowage at the max setting aka low pressure and high volume flowage it may possiblty it will trip the OCPD which I have see it once a while like that situation.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Why would it do that?

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Why would it do that?
> 
> ~Matt


Centrifugals have to to be sized according to their pump curve. The more flow the more work and the higher the current. Pipe size is also important.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> No but that is something to look at with centrifugal pumps.


That some case it may have oversized piping system it can actally did it.



TOOL_5150 said:


> Why would it do that?
> 
> ~Matt


IIRC with most centrifual pumps the more the item like water or air flow the more the current draw { if you try to overspeed them by useing the VSD that is one of the most common cuprit or put a faster pulley aka overdrive pulley :blink:}

If they are drawing too much try to throttle them back a little either suction or discharge side and the current drawage will drop a bit.

Merci.
Marc


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

1) small leak in the plumbing, air in the line causing the booster to OL
2) arcing contacts on the submersible tripping breaker


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

wildleg said:


> 1) small leak in the plumbing, air in the line causing the booster to OL
> 2) arcing contacts on the submersible tripping breaker


1. no, plumbing checked for leaks and none found. 
2. no arcing contacts


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bad check valve between the two pressure zones of piping. 

If not, I'm still formulating something clever to guess that involves the term "magneto reluctance". Perhaps just general reluctance. Failure to thrive, you might say.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> That some case it may have oversized piping system it can actally did it.


:yes: Just because you can bush a 1" pump discharge and suction up to 4" pipe doesn't mean you should. Some of you will laugh but people do stupid stuff sometimes.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Something just click in my mind how deep that sumberable pump is ?

If pretty deep some case check valve can go bad and when the pump cycle aginst the flow aka reverse flow when that happend it will put heckva a strain on the motor when it kick on.

And the pumming pipe is 3/4 inch size ?

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Bad check valve between the two pressure zones of piping.


Nope all check valves are good or new new cause I installed them my self. :whistling2: What it's just plumbing what can I f up?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Something just click in my mind how deep that sumberable pump is ?
> 
> If pretty deep some case check valve can go bad and when the pump cycle aginst the flow aka reverse flow when that happend it will put heckva a strain on the motor when it kick on.
> 
> ...


The pump sits at 210', I know cause I helped pull it about 2 years after this call. The valve was good when it came out. And the drop pipe is 1.25"


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> If not, I'm still formulating something clever to guess that involves the term "magneto reluctance". Perhaps just general reluctance. Failure to thrive, you might say.


The AB guy can't solve this one. :whistling2::laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Now we're back to my original guess of 43.

How about the potential relay going bad (or the start cap) in the pump controller?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Now we're back to my original guess of 43.
> 
> How about the potential relay going bad (or the start cap) in the pump controller?


Nope on both, one of the first things I check on well calls.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Nope on both, one of the first things I check on well calls.


Can I phone a friend? I want to call Richard Petty, Mister Number Fourty-Three himself, but he's probably sleeping because he's old. So, that's cheating on your part. The only people you'll let me call are old and already in bed. Why don't you play fair for a change?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Can I phone a friend? I want to call Richard Petty, Mister Number Fourty-Three himself, but he's probably sleeping because he's old. So, that's cheating on your part. The only people you'll let me call are old and already in bed. Why don't you play fair for a change?


Cause that's not how I roll. And that's not how I teach troubleshooting in person either. Students and apprentices hate that but they learn something. 
:laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Plate-tectonics. Earth's crust moved and smashed the well pump. 

Rub a little salve on it and it will be better in the morning.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Plate-tectonics. Earth's crust moved and smashed the well pump.
> 
> Rub a little salve on it and it will be better in the morning.


:notworthy::lol:

But no geology was not out to f with me that day.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> :notworthy::lol:
> 
> But no geology was not out to f with me that day.


Cool. So, I guessed right? 

Well, I cheated a little. It wasn't my guess. I saw that on an old Captain Caveman cartoon. (or, was it Jabber Jaw?). Anyhow, fun playing along. Next time, pick a hard one. :jester:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Cool. So, I guessed right?
> 
> Well, I cheated a little. It wasn't my guess. I saw that on an old Captain Caveman cartoon. (or, was it Jabber Jaw?). Anyhow, fun playing along. Next time, pick a hard one. :jester:


Actually that was the farthest from the real answer anyone has ever got, even as a joke. :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Actually that was the farthest from the real answer anyone has ever got, even as a joke. :laughing:


Listen here, nobody disrespects Captain Caveman. Understand?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I been doing a little head scratching on this one is the water is hard like high with iron or just real clear water?

I am pretty sure you did use the 4.0mm² conductors on the pump itself so I will rule it out at the moment.

Merci.
Marc

4.0mm²=#12 awg


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> I been doing a little head scratching on this one is the water is hard like high with iron or just real clear water?
> 
> I am pretty sure you did use the 4.0mm² conductors on the pump itself so I will rule it out at the moment.
> 
> ...


Yep it was 12 AWG and it was existing to the install. Pretty clear water not the best some sand but not much.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Well-Septic inversion syndrome? Happens out here all the time. It's a hard problem to solve. Generally involves two state inspectors, a witch doctor, three midgets, and a dog named "Roy".


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Well-Septic inversion syndrome? Happens out here all the time. It's a hard problem to solve. Generally involves two state inspectors, a witch doctor, three midgets, and a dog named "Roy".


No, no septic on site. No state inspector involved either, I avoid those guys like the plague, I don't think they like people who know stuff so the feeling is mutual I guess.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Any small children missing from the neighborhood lately? I have a theory, but I'm unable to put it into words because I can't find my smoking jacket. It was smoking a while ago, but it possibly burst into flames and disappeared into ash.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Any small children missing from the neighborhood lately? I have a theory, but I'm unable to put it into words because I can't find my smoking jacket. It was smoking a while ago, but it possibly burst into flames and disappeared into ash.


I got to go with no, they wouldn't make it past the dogs and the shooting.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

If that place was end of the spur or near the end of spur of POCO line it can be supectable to surge espcally with capaitor bank shifting or autotransfomer hit at wrong time.

That one possiblty I know of.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> If that place was end of the spur or near the end of spur of POCO line it can be supectable to surge espcally with capaitor bank shifting or autotransfomer hit at wrong time.
> 
> That one possiblty I know of.
> 
> ...


Nope, only POCO issue was there glass cash register thing went boom one night in a thunder storm.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Is the issue electrically related or is it some valve that sometimes shuts or something of the like?

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Is the issue electrically related or is it some valve that sometimes shuts or something of the like?
> 
> ~Matt


Electrical. :yes:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bore it 30 over, put a Holly on it, and it will run forever .

My next guess, leak at pitless adaptor and the submersible pump ran for hours and hours on end to deliver water to the tank.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Nope, only POCO issue was there glass cash register thing went boom one night in a thunder storm.


I heard a story from a lineman that some irate guy ripped his cash register out of the socket and threw it into the street, and then jumped the meter socket with some pieces of steel plate. He got caught when the meter reader came by.

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Bore it 30 over, put a Holly on it, and it will run forever .


hollys leak more than a group of guys drinking beer all night.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I heard a story from a lineman that some irate guy ripped his cash register out of the socket and threw it into the street, and then jumped the meter socket with some pieces of steel plate. He got caught when the meter reader came by.
> 
> ~Matt


Most of those get caught here too.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> hollys leak more than a group of guys drinking beer all night.
> 
> ~Matt


I went to school with a girl named Holly. Two Holly's, as a matter of fact. Wonder what happened to them? Find out for me, will you?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Electrical. :yes:


a loose connection causing heat?

~matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> a loose connection causing heat?
> 
> ~matt


Not a connection problem.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I went to school with a girl named Holly. Two Holly's, as a matter of fact. Wonder what happened to them? Find out for me, will you?


If they are over 30, which they would have to be... im not interested in them. :no:

~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Not a connection problem.


So the 1 pump and switch are new, the other pump checks out fine and the feeders are ok..... Im obviously missing something, but there doesnt seem to be much left to go wrong.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> So the 1 pump and switch are new, the other pump checks out fine and the feeders are ok..... Im obviously missing something, but there doesnt seem to be much left to go wrong.
> 
> ~Matt


There is quite a bit left.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Electrical. :yes:


Okay, okay. I got it now. 

There was an electrical problem causing the fuse to blow or breaker to trip. Can't believe such a simple answer eluded me. 

An FRN fuse might not be the spiffiest fuse selection for this application either.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, okay. I got it now.
> 
> There was an electrical problem causing the fuse to blow or breaker to trip. Can't believe such a simple answer eluded me.
> 
> An FRN fuse might not be the spiffiest fuse selection for this application either.


Wouldnt you want a time delay for a motor circuit?

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, okay. I got it now.
> 
> There was an electrical problem causing the fuse to blow or breaker to trip. Can't believe such a simple answer eluded me.
> 
> An FRN fuse might not be the spiffiest fuse selection for this application either.


Nope and a FRN is an ok choice here not my first one but. Most like them cause you can get the replacements at HD, Lowes, Ace and True Value here.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Was everything in good condition visually? No scorches on contacts or the like?

~Matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Wouldnt you want a time delay for a motor circuit?
> 
> ~Matt


Sure. If this was 1985, that would be a good choice. There's a few better now. Nothing wrong with that particular fuse, per se, but not my first choice in 2010.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> My next guess, leak at pitless adaptor and the submersible pump ran for hours and hours on end to deliver water to the tank.


No pitless.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Sure. If this was 1985, that would be a good choice. There's a few better now. Nothing wrong with that particular fuse, per se, but not my first choice in 2010.


why? whats better about fuses now for motor circuits?

~matt


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> There is quite a bit left.


There was quite a bit left, but Oprah ate most of it.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Sure. If this was 1985


Probably not all that far off of the age of the well.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Well crap... I guess im going to have to call an electrician to fix this.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Well crap... I guess im going to have to call an electrician to fix this.
> 
> ~Matt


You got to go back in time too cause I fixed it already without using any puns in the process. :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> why? whats better about fuses now for motor circuits?
> 
> ~matt


 The time-current curves of other fuses may or may not be desirable. In this case, with 30-amp fuses for a 1/2 horse motor, that thing could draw LRA for 15 or 20 seconds before it blew, probably.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I can fix on it for a while.. ill get it not working in no time flat..

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The time-current curves of other fuses may or may not be desirable. In this case, with 30-amp fuses for a 1/2 horse motor, that thing could draw LRA for 15 or 20 seconds before it blew, probably.


Not this time.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The time-current curves of other fuses may or may not be desirable. In this case, with 30-amp fuses for a 1/2 horse motor, that thing could draw LRA for 15 or 20 seconds before it blew, probably.


And im guessing a locked rotor would cause very high amperage draw.

Is there a filter in the system? maybe one of the pumps gets crap in it from time to time.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> And im guessing a locked rotor would cause very high amperage draw.
> 
> Is there a filter in the system? maybe one of the pumps gets crap in it from time to time.
> 
> ~Matt


No filter and no crap, new, clean storage tank and the screen on the well pump intake was all good when we pulled it a couple of years later.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

bill the customer for a fuse puller and teach him how to reset a breaker and be on your way then.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> bill the customer for a fuse puller and teach him how to reset a breaker and be on your way then.
> 
> ~Matt


Nope, there is a real problem here.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Perhaps a riddle will help;

The answer is somewhere in the past. :detective:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Was everything in good condition visually? No scorches on contacts or the like?
> 
> ~Matt


The outside of the boxes looked like crap but everything was all good on visual.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Well crap... I guess im going to have to call an electrician to fix this.
> 
> ~Matt



:lol::laughing::yes:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> I been doing a little head scratching on this one is the water is hard like high with iron or just real clear water?
> 
> I am pretty sure you did use the 4.0mm² conductors on the pump itself so I will rule it out at the moment.
> 
> ...


Marc let me ask you a question. In alot of posts you like to write things like "4.0mm²" instead of just #12. Or "RCD (GFCI)". Why? You obviously know that most of us here are Canadian and American because you actually add the definition of what you are writing. I'm just curious as to why you write in European terms.

I seriously doubt we will be going that route anytime soon in North America.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

3 wire pump. pump was wired neutral + 2 hots and should have been ground + 2 hots ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

wildleg said:


> 3 wire pump. pump was wired neutral + 2 hots and should have been ground + 2 hots ?


Nope, it's got a control box with start and run caps, OLs and a potential relay. It's 3 wire + and EGC.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

So what was it? The truth is out there..


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> So what was it? The truth is out there..


 From the description, it sounds like a standard pump control, for submersible water pumps. Sometimes these control boxes get zapped by surges etc. I have never tried to repair one. Easier and faster to replace.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Marc let me ask you a question. In alot of posts you like to write things like "4.0mm²" instead of just #12. Or "RCD (GFCI)". Why? You obviously know that most of us here are Canadian and American because you actually add the definition of what you are writing. I'm just curious as to why you write in European terms.
> 
> I seriously doubt we will be going that route anytime soon in North America.


 
I know how you feel about that and this fourm is pretty much international anyway so I am used to write in European terms so I do keep North Americian terms in there as well.

Just don't be suprised due more and more metric stuff start to show up I know you don't like to converted to metric stuff but I grew up in both ways so I can go either way.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Nope :no:, you guys are all going to hate yourselves when I tell you the answer, super simple, easy to solve by measuring voltage drop:whistling2:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Nope :no:, you guys are all going to hate yourselves when I tell you the answer, super simple, easy to solve by measuring voltage drop:whistling2:


so, what is the gauge of all the wire, and lengths from that 60A breaker up to the pumps.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> so, what is the gauge of all the wire, and lengths from that 60A breaker up to the pumps.
> 
> ~Matt


Not that voltage drop. BTW it was #10 on a 60amp about 40 to 60 feet away.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Ok no pictures sorry. I was on a call a while back, small water well system. I already know the problem, fixed it and collected the check, and I'm not fishing for the answer.
> 
> Here's the deal, small shed with an AZ style all in one service. A 60 amp 2 pole breaker feeds a small 30 amp fused disco with 30 amp FRN fuses about 60 feet away with a 4 wire UF feeder.
> 
> ...


Why the hell are we doing your job? :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

frenchelectrican;293840 I grew up in both ways so I can go either way.Merci.Marc[/QUOTE said:


> I had no idea you went both ways Marc.........:whistling2::jester::laughing:
> Not that there is anything wrong with that....


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Why the hell are we doing your job? :laughing:


Cause since you guys take so long I can charge for a butt load of hours for troubleshooting. :laughing::thumbup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

You guys want to know? The answer involves an FOP test.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> You guys want to know? The answer involves an FOP test.


You said there were no burnt or loose connections - a failed FOP test would indicate a bad connection.

~Matt


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> You said there were no burnt or loose connections - a failed FOP test would indicate a bad connection.
> 
> ~Matt


Nope that guess was somewhat close but not close enough.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Alright It is time to reveal the answer.

The problem was caused by a high resistance breaker contact. Lightning had struck the service, upon pulling the 2 pole 60 out I found one side was blown out. That contact had a resistance of about 25 ohms. Put in a 2 pole 30 amp 3rd party Zinsco replacement breaker and all was well.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> The problem was caused by a high resistance breaker contact.


Sounds like Matt was right, it was a loose connection. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Sounds like Matt was right, it was a loose connection. :thumbsup:


Close but i don't count a nuked contact as a loose connection. Matt was the closest though:clap:.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Sounds like he had it right and you just wanted to drag this thread on.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Solved*

Damn, you gotta keep these open longer. I was out late and just saw this. First thing I thought was you lost a pole on the 60 amp'r. But, I'm sure no one will believe me now. I always go with natural disasters (lighting), change of seasons, animals, DIY'rs, as a first guess anyhow. 

First thing I would of done was check the 2 pole resistance then worked downstream. I would of lucked out on that one. Lately, I've been guessing bad though. How long did it take you and what did you charge? 

Cletis


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Ok no pictures sorry. I was on a call a while back, small water well system. I already know the problem, fixed it and collected the check, and I'm not fishing for the answer.
> .
> Here's the deal, small shed with an AZ style all in one service. A 60 amp 2 pole breaker feeds a small 30 amp fused disco with 30 amp FRN fuses about 60 feet away with a 4 wire UF feeder.
> 
> ...


Had that problem at my home in PA, after extracting 300 ft of pump, found frayed conductor tapped to black pipe that was hitting the grounded case . I respliced and sleeved the last 10' of wire in PVC pipe on top of the pump. problem solved. Just to be sure the problem was below, I left two pigtail sockets w/ 20 amp fuses at the well head connection. It ran for a few days then one side blew.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Now that make sense there FOP test d'oh,.... 

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Cletis said:


> How long did it take you and what did you charge?


Well there were other issues and I had to change the well over from a pressure on demand control setup to a storage tank fill setup so I don't know exactly how long it took cause it was mixed in with other work.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jlarson said:


> close but i don't count a nuked contact as a loose connection. Matt was the closest though:clap:.


of course it is>>>>>>

All in all FOP would have been one of my first or maybe fifth of 5 or 6 test I would do.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> of course it is>>>>>>


Hey, my call my terminology. :laughing: Matt won this one though. 



brian john said:


> All in all FOP would have been one of my first or maybe fifth of 5 or 6 test I would do.


I think it was my 5th after I megged and checked amps and volts.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

My guess is a bad contact under the breaker.

:whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> My guess is a bad contact under the breaker.
> 
> :whistling2:


Oh go bond something to something else. 

And I meant the contact inside the breaker, I wish I had remembered to snap a picture cause it was kind of cool to see a whole side of a breaker blown apart.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Oh go bond something to something else.
> 
> And I meant the contact inside the breaker, I wish I had remembered to snap a picture cause it was kind of cool to see a whole side of a breaker blown apart.


How many of those pictures do you want I have a few I'll post if I get the time this week. 

Super busy this week


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Oh go bond something to something else.
> 
> And I meant the contact inside the breaker, I wish I had remembered to snap a picture cause it was kind of cool to see a whole side of a breaker blown apart.


 
I have see that in both Americian and European breaker blow apart like that in few case it will do worst than that.

The last one I did remember one dolt used 240 volt breaker on 480 system it did left a pretty good size hole in the wall.

Merci.
Marc


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> How many of those pictures do you want I have a few I'll post if I get the time this week.
> 
> Super busy this week


Nope I'm good, I have more. Just found another one last night as a matter of fact. And I found a couple of blown TVSS's at the same time, now I get to clean that mess out of the enclosures or at least the apprentice does...


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Please do post more photo if you can.

Merci.
Marc


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Oh go bond something to something else.
> 
> And I meant the contact inside the breaker, I wish I had remembered to snap a picture cause it was kind of cool to see a whole side of a breaker blown apart.












>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Please do post more photo if you can.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


I just did, look here. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/500-mile-service-call-16910/#post294464


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