# First panel



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

16 years and I still do that.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> 16 years and I still do that.


over 30 & still do on occasion :thumbup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Talofa. :thumbsup:


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## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

Talofa lava. But in a totally straight way..... Aside from this, I've about decided I'd rather rough a house in rather than trim out.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Both are pretty mindless work, but with time, you will find a routine.


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## CheapCharlie (Feb 4, 2011)

So, where's the pic?


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## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

Remember, first time. It can only get better. And yes, there's a couple joints. I forgoted arc faults needed neutrals.


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## jeepman (Jan 2, 2013)

Remember only a 1/4" of sheath is allowed in a box and panel. Also what's the reason for splitting all the breakers up in groups? Other than looks good. Neatness will come with time and more practice ad learning from mistakes


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

SamoanThor said:


> Remember, first time. It can only get better. And yes, there's a couple joints. I forgoted arc faults needed neutrals.
> 
> View attachment 30607


Unless you have NEC amendments those cables entering that way are an NEC violation


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jeepman said:


> Remember only a 1/4" of sheath is allowed in a box and panel.


Not true, you can have as much cable sheath inside as you want.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm normally not one to say to flip the panel when the feed is coming in the bottom, but in your case your feeders are gonna be sitting on top of a lot of branch circuit wiring and make it hard to work in.

Take those ground bars out and save them for later.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I wish I had taken a picture of the panel I added a couple of arc fault breakers to a couple of days ago.

What I did was HACKTASTIC!


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## CheapCharlie (Feb 4, 2011)

Remember to re-identify your white wire on those 2 pole breakers


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## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

You have neutrals and bare grounds terminated on the same bar: code violation


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

WhitehouseRT said:


> You have neutrals and bare grounds terminated on the same bar: code violation


Really?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

WhitehouseRT said:


> You have neutrals and bare grounds terminated on the same bar: code violation


Not in the USA it ain't. Is the op from Canada? On iPad and can't see locations.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Why are there breaks in the rows of breakers?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

WhitehouseRT said:


> You have neutrals and bare grounds terminated on the same bar: code violation


 
do you have a code reference from the NEC for that?


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

WhitehouseRT said:


> You have neutrals and bare grounds terminated on the same bar: code violation


QUICK get that *ground* rod wire & water pipe *ground* wire off that neutral bar............that's for neutral wires only.

Only neutral rod wires & water pipe neutral wires are allowed on that neutral bar :laughing:


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## WhitehouseRT (Aug 20, 2013)

drspec said:


> do you have a code reference from the NEC for that?


First, you have to understand that the neutral is a _*current-carrying conductor*_, whereas the ground wire is not. As such, the neutral wires are insulated, the same as any other current-carrying conductor. The misunderstanding comes from the fact that the neutral wire is intentionally _grounded_ at the main service panel *only*. The reason for this action is to allow ground-faults (or "short circuits" to ground) a return path back to the source of power, the utility transformer. Having the ground wires bonded to the neutral makes it possible for the circuit breaker to trip out easily under such conditions.

IF one were to connect the current-carrying neutral wire to the ground wires "downstream" then it's possible for some of that current to follow what is called a parallel path -- over the bare grounding wires -- instead of the insulated neutral wires -- as it finds its way back to the source. 

Keep in mind that the metal outside frames of your utilization equipment --> appliances, furnaces, water heaters, etc. are connected to that bare ground wire, and you absolutely * do not want * those metal frames to be carrying any of that current in their normal course of operation. Such stray currents can have potential differences between them and a grounded surface, such as a concrete floor, or the frame of a different appliance connected to another circuit. Potential difference = _Voltage_. 

And _Voltage_ can = shocks.
(http://www.electricalknowledge.com/forum/archives/1098.asp)

:thumbup:

From the 2008 NEC. 

- 250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current Systems.
- - (A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article. (This tells you *where NOT to* connect it.)

- - (B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28. (This tells you *where to* connect it.)
(http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...n/7162-grounds-neutrals-under-common-lug.html)



This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings
(www.mikeholt.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=2112)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wow :laughing::laughing:


WhitehouseRT, there is nothing wrong with landing both the neutrals and EGCs on the same bar in the panel in the OP's situation since it's the main service disconnect.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Wow :laughing::laughing: WhitehouseRT, there is nothing wrong with landing both the neutrals and EGCs on the same bar in the panel in the OP's situation since it's the main service disconnect.


Whole lotta herp with that derp. I still tend to add a ground bar for when I sell them a generator later it makes my life easier.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jeepman said:


> Remember only a 1/4" of sheath is allowed in a box and panel. Also what's the reason for splitting all the breakers up in groups? Other than looks good. Neatness will come with time and more practice ad learning from mistakes


Nope, 1/4" of sheath inside boxes is *required*. The length after that is not specified.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

WhitehouseRT said:


> First, you have to understand that the neutral is a _*current-carrying conductor*_, whereas the ground wire is not. As such, the neutral wires are insulated, the same as any other current-carrying conductor. The misunderstanding comes from the fact that the neutral wire is intentionally _grounded_ at the main service panel *only*. The reason for this action is to allow ground-faults (or "short circuits" to ground) a return path back to the source of power, the utility transformer. Having the ground wires bonded to the neutral makes it possible for the circuit breaker to trip out easily under such conditions.
> 
> IF one were to connect the current-carrying neutral wire to the ground wires "downstream" then it's possible for some of that current to follow what is called a parallel path -- over the bare grounding wires -- instead of the insulated neutral wires -- as it finds its way back to the source.
> 
> ...


Nothing in that post above prohibits landing neutral and grounds on the same bar assuming a service panel or a panel from an SDS.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

CheapCharlie said:


> Remember to re-identify your white wire on those 2 pole breakers


You can't phase any conductor under #8


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Chrisibew440 said:


> You can't phase any conductor under #8


That is not true.

You can, and are required to re-identify a white of any size cable used as a hot.


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## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

I was to understand that anything after the first means of disconnect, grounds and neutrals had to be separate. We do that on any panel with a service entrance wire since the main is on the outside box. The reason we separate our breakers is due to that builder specs. 220s, 110s and then arc faults on the bottom.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:laughing::laughing:


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Nope, 1/4" of sheath inside boxes is *required*. The length after that is not specified.



I've never run rope, so I don't know, but is my assumption that this is required to make sure that there is sheath around the wires in the connection at the connector?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Chrisibew440 said:


> You can't phase any conductor under #8


You can if it is in a cable assembly like romex. Remark to your hearts content. Where do you guys come up with these silly comments?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> You can if it is in a cable assembly like romex. Remark to your hearts content. Where do you guys come up with these silly comments?


Unfortunately, we live in a world where most working electrician learn code from what someone else on the jobsite says. 

It becomes gossip. The actual code gets mangled and mixed with job specs or just plane BS.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Unfortunately, we live in a world where most working electrician learn code from what someone else on the jobsite says. It becomes gossip. The actual code gets mangled and mixed with job specs or just plane BS.


True dat. Pretty sad really. Just like the good ol' wives tale that you can't use a panel as a raceway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> True dat. Pretty sad really. Just like the good ol' wives tale that you can't use a panel as a raceway.


Some of the best guys that I worked with have said crazy things such as you can't splice in panels or you can't run more than 100' of pipe without a pullbox.


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## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Some of the best guys that I worked with have said crazy things such as you can't splice in panels or you can't run more than 100' of pipe without a pullbox.


I tell my crew that you need a box every 100' however I do tell them its not code but its my rule and I won't buy them a longer fish tape if they can't plan their runs better. In over 20 years I think I have needed a 200' tape twice due unavoidable long runs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kryptes said:


> I tell my crew that you need a box every 100' however I do tell them its not code but its my rule and I won't buy them a longer fish tape if they can't plan their runs better. In over 20 years I think I have needed a 200' tape twice due unavoidable long runs.


Every EC that does commercial work should have 200'+ of fishtape in a 3' coil held together by a 16" piece of greenfield.


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## Kryptes (Aug 6, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Every EC that does commercial work should have 200'+ of fishtape in a 3' coil held together by a 16" piece of greenfield.


Oh I do have one, I just choose not to tell my guys I have one....


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Every EC that does commercial work should have 200'+ of fishtape in a 3' coil held together by a 16" piece of greenfield.


I always thought of that as Hack. Hated fish tapes that were not in the factory case. Just my opinion


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> I always thought of that as Hack. Hated fish tapes that were not in the factory case. Just my opinion


Who wants to reel up 200'+ of fishtape into the little factory plastic case?? Not only is that a waste of time, but it bends the fishtape too tight and leads to it being too twisty.

A nice 3' coil is perfect. Straight, easy to coil up, ready to go.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Kryptes said:


> I tell my crew that you need a box every 100' however I do tell them its not code but its my rule and I won't buy them a longer fish tape if they can't plan their runs better. In over 20 years I think I have needed a 200' tape twice due unavoidable long runs.


I've gone a lot further than that in parking lots.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I like how you left your id tags on your romex. I usually do that as well, and only when everything is checked out do I take those off.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

dronai said:


> I like how you left your id tags on your romex. I usually do that as well, and only when everything is checked out do I take those off.


 
I leave em on permanently


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

What a know it all


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## diamond dave (Feb 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Not true, you can have as much cable sheath inside as you want.


What a know it all


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## jeepman (Jan 2, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Not true, you can have as much cable sheath inside as you want.


Unless it has been remove from the NEC it's a code rule and very much enforced here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jeepman said:


> Unless it has been remove from the NEC it's a code rule and very much enforced here.


You know better than that. Quote the NEC where it says that.

When you realize that you can't, see post #32 in this thread.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

HackWork said:


> You know better than that. Quote the NEC where it says that.
> 
> When you realize that you can't, see post #32 in this thread.


and then see this post.............

and post a picture for Ol' Dino...........:thumbup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

SparkyDino said:


> and then see this post.............
> 
> and post a picture for Ol' Dino...........:thumbup:


Here ya go Dino:


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Here ya go Dino:



I LOVE DOGGIES!

this place is better than facebook!!!!

I tramped for years with a real bitch in the front seat, not one of those nagging human bleeding type ol ladies........even taught her to call in sick for me when I was hung over


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

My first 2


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## CheapCharlie (Feb 4, 2011)

Looks nice, but you're going to hear it about those ty-raps in the panel....LOL. Nice work!


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

CheapCharlie said:


> Looks nice, but you're going to hear it about those ty-raps in the panel....LOL. Nice work!


last month at an IAEI meeting they said that falls under the 10' rule :laughing::laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

CheapCharlie said:


> Looks nice, but you're going to hear it about those ty-raps in the panel....LOL. Nice work!


F*ck ty-wraps. I hate those things in panels with a passion. When I have to open up a panel loaded with those damn things, the ***** come out to play. The only times I use ty-wraps is to secure MC to stuff and to secure conductors to keep them away from moving parts (i.e. the Modine heater I wired yesterday to keep the conductors away from the blower motor).


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

drspec said:


> I leave em on permanently


Ditto. They make life much easier for the next guy, who is hopefully me. Or maybe it's because I am too lazy to undo all my terminations, clip, re-strip and re-terminate all my breaker connections just to remove them. Who knows. :laughing:


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## CheapCharlie (Feb 4, 2011)

Ty-raps have their place but I do end up taking out more than I put in! Lol. Troubleshooting and chasing wire is a b#@$ with a bunch of ty-raps in the way!


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Military man, I like a clean look. Thanks for the complements.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

bml215 said:


> My first 2


I always put three wraps of tape, equally measured, just to look nice.

not a big wrap like that.

inspectors think if you took the time to wrap like that you took the time with the rest of the job.

green tag

LMFAO just kiddin' :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> I like how you left your id tags on your romex. I usually do that as well, and only when everything is checked out do I take those off.


Why?


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## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

Why did I leave them on? So my panel labels would be in the right spots. Why WOULDN'T you want that to happen?


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## Calebxx12 (Oct 11, 2010)

Some of the ridiculous "code violation" comments have made my day.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Lots of code cites from the ULC, Urban Legend Code.:jester:


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Ehhhh


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## owl (Oct 31, 2012)

bml215 said:


> Ehhhh


My boss would tell me to just bring the legs down and land them without having the extra length. The rest of it looks pretty good as far as I can tell.

Not pertaining to your pics, but he also ****ing hates tie-wraps in panels.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

owl said:


> My boss would tell me to just bring the legs down and land them without having the extra length. The rest of it looks pretty good as far as I can tell. Not pertaining to your pics, but he also ****ing hates tie-wraps in panels.


My boss tells me to leave extra wire, but I only do when he is there (very rare since I'm a J-man), and he has actually had me rip out feeders, get more wire, and redo them so they have Mickey Mouse ears.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Not bad for your 1st time kid.....neatness only goes so far in the real world...I built mil-spec panels for 11 years.....they are a far cry from the world....number one: is it wired correctly?...number two: make her neater you'll learn how that's easy...number three: speed... most bosses want number 1 & 3 first....you will see some real crappy stuff in your future.....but it was wired correctly no one will ever know except the guy who takes off the dead front....:thumbsup:......if you hate zips(I do) try lacing a panel....


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

bml215 said:


> Ehhhh


You should pull the green bonding screw out of there. Kinda defeats the purpose of running a separate neutral and a ground. Other than that, not too shabby.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I hate seeing a brand new panel that is stuffed full with minis to boot. That looks like a Homeline mini in a Siemens or Murray panel too. I'd rate it hack.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

ButcherSlayer said:


> Wow the only electrician that I have seen here that is actually realistic. Other than the douches that think they were born knowing everything and did everything perfect. Much respect


It's funny you say that to him considering he said something completely wrong in his post.


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## ButcherSlayer (Oct 4, 2013)

DIYer4Life said:


> It's funny you say that to him considering he said something completely wrong in his post.


Lol y u say dat


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

ButcherSlayer said:


> Lol y u say dat


b cuz it wuz tru, yo.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

MTW said:


> I hate seeing a brand new panel that is stuffed full with minis to boot. That looks like a Homeline mini in a Siemens or Murray panel too. I'd rate it hack.


Wasn't given enough breakers for the job, had to use an mini from the old panel. Not proud of it.


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## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using tandems on a new panel. 

It's costs a little more so I usually try to avoid it. But when I have to do it, I don't feel bad.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

DIYer4Life said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with using tandems on a new panel.
> 
> It's costs a little more so I usually try to avoid it. But when I have to do it, I don't feel bad.


I don't like seeing a new panel with opens spaces containing one beat up twin, nothing wrong with it just a personal preference.


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## bigmiketino (Feb 28, 2012)

Separate ground bar required for sub panels remove green bond screw and put all grounds on separate bar. If its getting inspected..


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

bigmiketino said:


> Separate ground bar required for sub panels remove green bond screw and put all grounds on separate bar. If its getting inspected..


 
Ya Think ????


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

Wheres the feeders


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

SamoanThor said:


> Remember, first time. It can only get better. And yes, there's a couple joints. I forgoted arc faults needed neutrals.
> 
> View attachment 30607


You apparently are not ready to make up a panel. Not to be a **** but that is not how a pro would leave it.
Sorry


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ButcherSlayer said:


> Wow the only electrician that I have seen here that is actually realistic. Other than the douches that think they were born knowing everything and did everything perfect. Much respect


What about some of the obvious code violations?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> What about some of the obvious code violations?


True. Glad you bumped this thread. I got to re-read the goat rodeo on the first 3 pages. :laughing:


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

And another sub


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

bml215 said:


> And another sub


Good job taking the bonding screw out this time. Why did you run the grounds across to the other side of the panel when you have ground bars on both sides? Also, I woulda stripped the romex back closer to the top the can, and bend the wires so they come down straight. Kinda like this:


The wirenuts in the right aren't splices, they are wires that I hadn't made in yet as the other end still needed some work.


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Good job taking the bonding screw out this time. Why did you run the grounds across to the other side of the panel when you have ground bars on both sides? Also, I woulda stripped the romex back closer to the top the can, and bend the wires so they come down straight. Kinda like this:
> http://s2.photobucket.com/user/xxxsnapsh0txxx/media/IMG_20120903_135300.jpg.html
> 
> The wirenuts in the right aren't splices, they are wires that I hadn't made in yet as the other end still needed some work.


I'm going to keep what you said about the grounds in mind for the next one. The Romex is stripped all the way back, what your seeing are labels made with the Romex sheath like in your pic but mine are at the top. I'm not big on the sheath labels but the guy I'm working for is. Ty for the ground tip.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

bml215 said:


> I'm going to keep what you said about the grounds in mind for the next one. The Romex is stripped all the way back, what your seeing are labels made with the Romex sheath like in your pic but mine are at the top. I'm not big on the sheath labels but the guy I'm working for is. Ty for the ground tip.


I use sheath labels quite a bit, as you can see. If it is existing I just use white tape and a sharpy. The pic of my panel was a complete house rewire with 6 electrical panels, so I needed to be specific on circuit labeling.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> Good job taking the bonding screw out this time. Why did you run the grounds across to the other side of the panel when you have ground bars on both sides? Also, I woulda stripped the romex back closer to the top the can, and bend the wires so they come down straight. Kinda like this:
> 
> 
> The wirenuts in the right aren't splices, they are wires that I hadn't made in yet as the other end still needed some work.


Looks good to me ! Except for one thing ! No light bulb in the socket !

:jester:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> Looks good to me ! Except for one thing ! No light bulb in the socket !
> 
> :jester:
> View attachment 31889


That pic is over a year old, and last I checked, that socket is still sitting there. :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

bml215 said:


> And another sub


Why do you do such a nice job but use a cheap panel???:laughing::laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

wendon said:


> Why do you do such a nice job but use a cheap panel???:laughing::laughing:


All loadcenters are cheap pieces of crap now. Hell, being able to buy QO at Home Depot caused Rexel up here to stop carrying Square-D, so they switched to Eaton/CH. Once Depot started selling QO, we could get it for 40% less than from the SH, and it devolved into even more cheap crap.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

RGH said:


> Not bad for your 1st time kid.....neatness only goes so far in the real world...I built mil-spec panels for 11 years.....they are a far cry from the world....number one: is it wired correctly?...number two: make her neater you'll learn how that's easy...number three: speed... most bosses want number 1 & 3 first....you will see some real crappy stuff in your future.....but it was wired correctly no one will ever know except the guy who takes off the dead front....:thumbsup:......if you hate zips(I do) try lacing a panel....


i know what your sayin:laughing:
try lacing a fire-control amplo-dyne generator panel for a mk 11 missile system (cant go int specifics on it but nearly 3000 conductors laced with cotton cord and varnished in)


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## bml215 (Jul 2, 2012)

wendon said:


> Why do you do such a nice job but use a cheap panel???:laughing::laughing:


That what I'm supplied with. And what's wrong with Siemens?


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

bml215 said:


> That what I'm supplied with. And what's wrong with Siemens?


theres nothing wrong with a Siemens panel especially the new copper buss panels. Some people here are brainwashed and think spending $50 more for a QO panel and about $8 more for an AFCI breaker means something.


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## SamoanThor (Oct 18, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> You apparently are not ready to make up a panel. Not to be a **** but that is not how a pro would leave it.
> Sorry


Sorry guys, that...... That was my bad. The title of this thread should read "First panel". Must have missed it initially.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

drspec said:


> theres nothing wrong with a Siemens panel especially the new copper buss panels. Some people here are brainwashed and think spending $50 more for a QO panel and about $8 more for an AFCI breaker means something.


 
Try examining the 2 more closely, there are differences.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

SamoanThor said:


> Sorry guys, that...... That was my bad. The title of this thread should read "First panel". Must have missed it initially.


I say good job. Im sure you worked out the kinks anyway. Its all a crash course. Was for everyone of the big mouths around here too obviously. They're still sore. :laughing:


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