# afci problem (again)



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i have one room that that the afci will reset and test fine but the second ANYTHING is plugged in it trips. Found a no continuity nuetral to one rec but still trips with that disconnected. i know i need to do tests but help me make it quicker please:vs_mad:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

You have a neutral to ground contact somewhere. Definitely megger it.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MTW said:


> You have a neutral to ground contact somewhere. *Definitely megger it*.


Megger it ????

I was expecting just ditch the AFCI :biggrin:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

tried that. inspector caught it!:crying:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Disconnect the neutral and ground at the panel, I think you'll find continuity between them ..... divide an conquer :wink:


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I can't count the number of AFCI's I fixed by simply changing the breaker, especially Seimens.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Take out the breaker and put in a Leviton afci receptacle outlet into the first receptacle on the circuit (assuming this is a receptacle outlet circuit and not lights of course.....)


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Megger it ????
> 
> I was expecting just ditch the AFCI :biggrin:


If there's no inspection, the AFCI would not be there in the first place. :biggrin:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MTW said:


> If there's no inspection, the AFCI would not be there in the first place. :biggrin:


but ... but ... but ... what about the children :surprise:


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## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm sick of the children.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

emtnut said:


> Disconnect the neutral and ground at the panel, I think you'll find continuity between them ..... divide an conquer :wink:


Interestingly I can say that I have never had a problem with an AFCI...yet.

Went to a Siemens presentation on the subject recently and was really surprized how many issues people are having. The Siemens rep stated that a majority of the issues are "install related" but did not clarify.

Apparently you can remove the breaker from the panel and send it to Siemens and they will "download" the signatures to see why it tripped.

What I don't understand if the ground and neutral are touching in some random box, it should trip immediately as that state is constant. Putting a load on the circuit does not change that... must there be current flow for the AFCI to trip?

Cheers
John


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Navyguy said:


> Interestingly I can say that I have never had a problem with an AFCI...yet.
> 
> Went to a Siemens presentation on the subject recently and was really surprized how many issues people are having. The Siemens rep stated that a majority of the issues are "install related" but did not clarify.
> 
> ...


Nice that they can 'read' the breaker ... I guess if Siemens sold cars, you'd have to ship them back to see why they stall :biggrin:

For the GFP part of the breaker, there would be no difference in H-N current ... that would only be sensed with a load.
The new GE breakers, and I'm pretty sure the newer BR breakers don't have the GFP anymore. (apparently they have AFCI software in them that actually detects faults now :vs_laugh: )
@macmikeman may know something about the GFP in the Leviton receptacles !


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

So when you say the neutral and bond are touching, you are referring to the Ground Fault portion and the not the Arc Fault portion... got it.

The GFI portion will not trip until there is current flow.

Cheers

John


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I just did a troubleshoot on GE AFCI breakers

They evidently have been giving the condo owner
a problem since the place was built , around 2004ish..

They had one EC tell them that the original GE's 
were horrible.(I never used GE at all to this day).

Only problem is , each time the guy had an EC 
come out , they claim , no body ever opened a 
receptacle or switch box in previous troubleshooting
service calls.

I opened up boxes and whoever the "electrician" 
was that wired the place had zero clue how to 
use wire nuts...they were coming off when you 
attempted to pull out a switch or outlet receptacle.

That was definitely an install problem in that case.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

lighterup said:


> I opened up boxes and whoever the "electrician"
> was that wired the place had zero clue how to
> use wire nuts...they were coming off when you
> attempted to pull out a switch or outlet receptacle.


I hate it when they don't tape them :vs_mad:
How can the wires stay in there without tape !!!!!!!!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I hate it when they don't tape them :vs_mad:
> How can the wires stay in there without tape !!!!!!!!


:vs_laugh::vs_worry:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

lighterup said:


> :vs_laugh::vs_worry:


Thought you'd get a laugh out of that :biggrin:


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## mjbasford (Oct 2, 2016)

emtnut said:


> lighterup said:
> 
> 
> > I opened up boxes and whoever the "electrician"
> ...


Well, I hope they pretwisted them all at least if they did not use any tape!


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> ... must there be current flow for the AFCI to trip?
> 
> Cheers
> John


yes 

$*^@_(long enough now to post?)


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Nice that they can 'read' the breaker ... I guess if Siemens sold cars, you'd have to ship them back to see why they stall :biggrin:
> 
> For the GFP part of the breaker, there would be no difference in H-N current ... that would only be sensed with a load.
> The new GE breakers, and I'm pretty sure the newer BR breakers don't have the GFP anymore. (apparently they have AFCI software in them that actually detects faults now :vs_laugh: )
> @macmikeman may know something about the GFP in the Leviton receptacles !





Navyguy said:


> So when you say the neutral and bond are touching, you are referring to the Ground Fault portion and the not the Arc Fault portion... got it.
> 
> The GFI portion will not trip until there is current flow.
> 
> ...



A regular combination type AFCI does NOT have ground fault protection at all. It can sense an arc to ground but it does NOT provide GFCI protection. If you are using a DUAL FUNCTION breaker then it has AFCI and GFCI protection.

As to the AFCI not tripping until there is a load, no load equals no arc.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

pudge565 said:


> A regular combination type AFCI does NOT have ground fault protection at all. It can sense an arc to ground but it does NOT provide GFCI protection. If you are using a DUAL FUNCTION breaker then it has AFCI and GFCI protection.
> 
> As to the AFCI not tripping until there is a load, no load equals no arc.


You sure about that ?? :biggrin:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

pudge565 said:


> A regular combination type AFCI does NOT have ground fault protection at all. It can sense an arc to ground but it does NOT provide GFCI protection. If you are using a DUAL FUNCTION breaker then it has AFCI and GFCI protection.
> 
> As to the AFCI not tripping until there is a load, no load equals no arc.


They do have a form of GFI protection. It's not the 4-6 mA required for regular GFCIs but more around 30 mA. So a shorted neutral to ground will trip just like a GFCI. Some mfg have taken that out but only one or two of them. GE is one for sure but not certain who the other(s) one is.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

spent a little time on it today and found that the feeder to an outlet that feeds to right and left is just fine but both feeders from there are bad. read 88v from hot to n. cut hole the wall to see if nails were through wire.(lap joint in the base board right below it) that doesnt appear to be the problem but cant see what's below it yet. isnt it kinda odd that 3 wires on a stud and two went bad below the floor?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

by the way this an OLD house with ballon framing and for some reason there is an added 2x4 at the floor level. thats why i cant see farther down (yet)


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

papaotis said:


> spent a little time on it today and found that the feeder to an outlet that feeds to right and left is just fine but both feeders from there are bad. read 88v from hot to n. cut hole the wall to see if nails were through wire.(lap joint in the base board right below it) that doesnt appear to be the problem but cant see what's below it yet. isnt it kinda odd that 3 wires on a stud and two went bad below the floor?


feeder?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

sorry wrong term. branch:wink:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

finally got back there today and found the problem after cutting holes in walls sure i find a trim nail through a wire. should have listened to enut! after none of was making sense i backed up through the whole run and after looking several times in a jb to follow wires i got curious as to why i couldn't see ALL of the neutral. sure enough i look all around the box (wi\hich required me to put my head against a stone foundation) there was the neutral sticking out the side of the extension ring! PINCHED:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

papaotis said:


> finally got back there today and found the problem after cutting holes in walls sure i find a trim nail through a wire. should have listened to enut! after none of was making sense i backed up through the whole run and after looking several times in a jb to follow wires i got curious as to why i couldn't see ALL of the neutral. sure enough i look all around the box (wi\hich required me to put my head against a stone foundation) there was the neutral sticking out the side of the extension ring! PINCHED:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


Glad you got it figured out Papa :wink:


It's OK, nobody listens to me anymore ... I think it's my new suit :biggrin:


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

papaotis said:


> finally got back there today and found the problem after cutting holes in walls sure i find a trim nail through a wire. should have listened to enut! after none of was making sense i backed up through the whole run and after looking several times in a jb to follow wires i got curious as to why i couldn't see ALL of the neutral. sure enough i look all around the box (wi\hich required me to put my head against a stone foundation) there was the neutral sticking out the side of the extension ring! PINCHED:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


Something similar happened to me once and it's the reason I bought my megger which I haven't had to use ever since.


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