# Check out this scenario...



## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

Customer had a lightning strike, which caused the 200 amp main breaker in the panel to freeze in the "on" position. Called Electrician to change out main breaker.
Electrician shuts off all breakers in the panel, then pulls meter. Load side now dead.
While disconnecting main breaker, cannot loosen lug on one phase. Frozen. However, while trying to loosen frozen lug, ratchet handle comes in contact with other disconnected leg. (Neutral still connected in Meter Pan and Panel).

Can any of you Masters describe what happened next?


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Nothing, if the meter is pulled.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

kbsparky said:


> Nothing, if the meter is pulled.


 
As long it don't have the freaking bypass lever in there but once you have bypass lever in there ya can be toasted. Some of the electricans are not aware when the bypass lever is pulled it actually bypass the meter socket when ya yank the meter out.

The only way it can be 100 % dead with freaking bypass sockets is push the lever back in that will disabled it as long ya don't have the meter in there.

OP., As you read above comment if that is true then someone broke the golden rules is double check with the voltmeter to make sure it is 100 % dead.

Merci,
Marc


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> As long it don't have the freaking bypass lever in there but once you have bypass lever in there ya can be toasted....


I believe that the OP stated the load side was dead ... <checking> ...



Caustic CC said:


> ... pulls meter. Load side now dead....


Yup.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

You cannot pull out the meter without unlocking the bypass switch.
The meter was out and there was no reading on the load side. There was no power in the panel.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

So, what happened?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Awg-Dawg said:


> So, what happened?


I don't know...


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> I don't know...


 
Well, dont sit there.

Ask him.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Caustic CC said:


> Customer had a lightning strike, which caused the 200 amp main breaker in the panel to freeze in the "on" position. Called Electrician to change out main breaker.
> Electrician shuts off all breakers in the panel, then pulls meter. Load side now dead.
> While disconnecting main breaker, cannot loosen lug on one phase. Frozen. However, while trying to loosen frozen lug, ratchet handle comes in contact with other disconnected leg. (Neutral still connected in Meter Pan and Panel).
> 
> Can any of you Masters describe what happened next?


 
The other situation sometime it do show up is corner grounded delta system and did you any chance have a stand by generator unit running or crossed feed from somewhere else?

Merci,
Marc


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

It was a standard 200 amp residential service. 
A tree was struck by lighting in the yard, which froze the main breaker in the "on" position. Bus bar was not burnt, all breakers were fine.
Everything in the house worked, but the main could not be turned off.

There was nothing in the house to backfeed the panel.

Both phases were operational. There was no power to the load side of the service after the Meter was removed.

However, the neutral was still connected to the line and load side of both the meter pan and the panel.

When trying to loosen the frozen lug on the right phase of the panel, the steel handle of the ratchet came in contact with the left phase wire which was already disconnected.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok, you still havent said what happened.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

You skinned your knuckle!


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

It finally came off! Whew!


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)




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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Caustic CC said:


> *the steel handle of the ratchet came in contact with the left phase wire which was already disconnected*.


There you have your answer. The wire was disconnected so there was no connection on either end of the said wire per se. The ratchet was made of steel and the wire was aluminum so following the contact no sparks were present and so the gas collecting in the basement did not ignite and the house did not blow up.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

wendon said:


> There you have your answer. The wire was disconnected so there was no connection on either end of the said wire per se. The ratchet was made of steel and the wire was aluminum so following the contact no sparks were present and so the gas collecting in the basement did not ignite and the house did not blow up.


Either that or someone did farted in basement pretty hard on that.

Merci,
Marc


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

In gonna guess tht someone plugged the meter back in.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

...they went to lunch...??....later post mentions "tree" ...did lightning weld something here??? or burn something up....besides our collective patience...:laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Perhaps the noodle has a multiple paths back to the serving xformer, municipal h20 or gas line, ph, cable....enough for an arc to occur...?


~CS~


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

:laughing: Am I the only one annoyed by these stupid threads? Just tell the story. I'll play along anyway. Based on the description, he finished the job, got paid and wasted his money on blow then came here to post stupid questions.

Probably something with a UPS.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Perhaps the noodle has a multiple paths back to the serving xformer, municipal h20 or gas line, ph, cable....enough for an arc to occur...?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Finally a lack of arrogance.
Thanks, Steve. I think you're the one on the right track.

While trying to loosen the right phase lug, the ratchet came in contact with the already freed left phase conductor.

Boom. Ratchet became fused to left conductor. The guy did not get shocked. Other houses in the neighborhood lost power.
When the utility company came, they said "everything was fried from this house back to the transformer..."

Someone in the neighborhood said it sounded like fireworks going off when the arc occurred.

I told my buddy I would post to this forum to get some input as his electrician didn't really have a concrete answer as to what happened.

Sarcasm is welcomed for those of you with a lot of free time.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Very interesting CC

that your man was not bit,_ i.e.- zero potential,_ suggests a bum noodle event here

that further damage occured suggests said bum noodle existed until it found alternate paths , created by the mishap

now did this damage occur within the same dwelling? Or seperate one?

~CS~


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

The arc occurred in my friends house, as the guy was changing out his bad main breaker.

In my opinion, because the neutral was still connected, somehow when the ratchet came across the two phases there was some kind of backfeed, up to the meter pan, back down into the panel (remember the right phase was still tied in...),
back out of the panel neutral through the meter pan and out to the pole.
I'm not a master electrician, but when I heard about this it sounded very odd. Thought I might find some possible solutions for my friend / neighbor.

He said the meter was pulled and the panel was dead. Why the arc?
Could it have been a bad neutral out at the pole?

I'm glad the guy wasn't hurt. 
It has to have something to do with the neutral being connected. Nothing else makes sense.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Caustic CC said:


> While trying to loosen the right phase lug, the ratchet came in contact with the already freed left phase conductor.


Something isn't adding up here. With the meter pulled the already freed left phase conductor is not connected to anything at this point. It sounds like both of these conductors were still hooked to POCO. Most likely the meter bypass?


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

The conductors were connected to the meter pan outside. After he pulled the meter, he checked both phases and phase to neutral for power. I was there watching him.

I saw him test for power on the mains at the panel also. There was no power.

I didn't see the arc, but my friend said he was trying to get the right lug loose in the panel and it would not budge. During the struggle he inadvertently touched the left phase wire with the handle of the ratchet, and that's when the flash occurred.

The neutral was the only continuous path back to the pole. 
I don't understand:
A - Why he was not injured, (IF there was an arc, doesn't that mean there is current?)
B - If there was no power to the load side of the meter, where the hell did the arc come from? And why did the wires on the street poles "fry", according to the lineman?

Could there have been some kind of fault in the neutral? The lightning may have caused some kind of fault in the neutral, but I'm just speculating.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

You are describing an impossible scenario. Both of those phases had to still be connected to POCO somehow. He had good boots on and never touched anything is why he didn't get shocked.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

8V71 said:


> You are describing an impossible scenario. Both of those phases had to still be connected to POCO somehow. He had good boots on and never touched anything is why he didn't get shocked.


So you are saying, even though the meter pan was disconnected, the phases still had power?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I still don't get it.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Neither do the arrogant rest of us! Impossible scenario. Something was connected in the meter pan most likely or something arced across between the line and load conductors in the meter pan. He should have checked both phases to ground for voltage instead of just phase to phase.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

wendon said:


> Neither do the arrogant rest of us! Impossible scenario. Something was connected in the meter pan most likely or something arced across between the line and load conductors in the meter pan. He should have checked both phases to ground for voltage instead of just phase to phase.



Thanks for being so kind!
Yeah, it sounds impossible, but it happened. If the meter was faulty, wouldn't it show voltage on the load side?
The panel was dead. Perhaps one phase had a ground fault?
I'm sure he checked from phase to neutral / ground in the panel before messing with it.
There was some corrosion on the mains, but I don't see how that would affect anything.
I feel a bit better that there isn't an obvious solution here.


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

So the conductor was not connected to anything, but it faulted. 

Obviously somebody has their facts wrong or they do not have a full understanding of what was going on. Or, somebody lied to somebody because they screwed up. 

My head hurts now after reading this thead.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

Bbsound said:


> So the conductor was not connected to anything, but it faulted.
> 
> Obviously somebody has their facts wrong or they do not have a full understanding of what was going on. Or, somebody lied to somebody because they screwed up.
> 
> My head hurts now after reading this thead.


Stop reading and take 2 aspirin.


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## toolaholic (Aug 13, 2010)

*What happened ?????????????*

The Wife came out in Her Baby Dolls = ARC FLASH ! :jester:


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evrVQDxPaww


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

how do you do the video thing?


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Maple_Syrup25 said:


> how do you do the video thing?


You first copy the youtube link like you did, then in your post reply you click on the







icon. You will get [ YOUTUBE ]*[ /YOUTUBE ] in your reply box then paste the copied link into the space I marked with *. 

You'll end up with this: 






:thumbup:


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## Maple_Syrup25 (Nov 20, 2012)

mxslick said:


> You first copy the youtube link like you did, then in your post reply you click on the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

We should play this like Jeopardy.

Category = Sidejob

Answers
1. I am an apprentice. I learned this last week.
2. Just cut it here.
3. I have a buddy who is an electrician. He can come over and fix it for a case of beer.
4. Insurance is only for big contractors.
5. Wow, that was cool, do it again.


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## SVT CAMR (Apr 17, 2012)

Ok this happened to me once. 

I could not believe it, I just got tickled with some voltage. 

Wtf I said. I tested it and there it was 120v. I did not check after pulling the meter. I pulled the meter the power is dead right. Wrong because over the years the ground had settled (Underground service resi) and pulled the triplex down and put pressure on the jaw where the meter inserts. Sure enough I go outside to see why the heck I just got hit after removing the meter. Upon removing the meter the lug insulator was damaged (cracked) and the lug made its way to barely contact the load side of the service entrance.  

I thought to myself :no: why did you not check the phasing. Just because you pull the meter does not ensure your safety. Lesson learned. Now I had to explain the broken meter jaw to the customer. 

These underground services are a problem when they settle. If the wire jams it self up against the side of the enclosure underground this will cause a fire being the conductors are on the poco side. I noticed this at 2 homes last year.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had a few lightning situations where the poco xformer was damaged, the primary doesn't always blow, some freaky voltages appear....~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Lots of stuff here don't add up.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Caustic CC said:


> It was a standard 200 amp residential service.
> A tree was struck by lighting in the yard, which froze the main breaker in the "on" position. Bus bar was not burnt, all breakers were fine.
> Everything in the house worked, but the main could not be turned off.
> 
> ...





Caustic CC said:


> Finally a lack of arrogance.
> Thanks, Steve. I think you're the one on the right track.
> 
> While trying to loosen the right phase lug, the ratchet came in contact with the already freed left phase conductor.
> ...


First you say both phases operational, then you say everything is fried back to the transformer. 

:whistling2: 

I say someones Bullshtinen us


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

This adds up about as well as our federal budgets. I think I need to go lay down now


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

If I wasnt a drinking type of guy.....I'd look for a bottle after trying to cipher this one. If the meter is out and it isn't a bypass can.......how can there be a path to anything on the first phase wire that supposedly arced to the ratchet handle:001_huh:?

Just doesn't add up.:no:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

**** me. I didn't mean to bump this old ass post but I can't make it go away.


............
One time in my 40 years, I came upon 1960 era resi meter with a spring loaded bypass built in. It took me a couple minutes to figure it out. My mind went straight to an illegal backfeed

At that stage of my career I had gotten into the habit of ALWAYS checking power in every situation, but especially when I was going to have to put my bare hands on a lug tool.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Wow...mummy thread.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

220/221 said:


> **** me. I didn't mean to bump this old ass post but I can't make it go away.
> 
> 
> ............
> ...



Meters only measure potential across the probes. You also need to test your meter after taking a zero volt reading as there's no way to tell if it broken. 

Read all the posts and there's nothing amazing when you consider the wire between the home and transformer was trashed by lightning. Panel ground/neutral connection couldn't take the spike so it shared it with the poco neutral until both failed. Wire (poco) got hot and melted neutral to a phase.

If you measure live to neutral with out a ground connection and the neutral is hot then all your readings are zero. Presuming the ground rod is still intact to the panel body you now have a fun way to mess with the neighbors on the same transformer.
Moral of the story is always take the extra few seconds and also measure line and neutral to ground.


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