# Kohler vs Generac



## MDShunk

Generac = gener crap

If you're making me choose between the two, the Kohler is what I'll pick any day.


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## captkirk

MDShunk said:


> Generac = gener crap
> 
> If you're making me choose between the two, the Kohler is what I'll pick any day.


 Thats kind of what I figured. If we went with generac we could make some money on the units alone.... But neither of us are Kohler dealers.. And this lady wants this done ASAP.. How long does it take to get set up with them..? and do I need to sell at least two a year or something..?


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## drsparky

Kohler makes very good engines. I know nothing of their generator package.


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## 480sparky

Kohler. Hands down.

My supplier not only sells them, they also deliver and set them. All I do is hook them up, get a plumber in, and call for commissioning.


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## captkirk

480sparky said:


> Kohler. Hands down.
> 
> My supplier not only sells them, they also deliver and set them. All I do is hook them up, get a plumber in, and call for commissioning.


 Does your supplier deliver to NJ :whistling2: and would you mind floating me 26,000 :no::laughing:


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## MDShunk

captkirk said:


> How long does it take to get set up with them..?


I don't think you can unless you have an engine mechanic on staff. I buy Kohler from the Kohler dealer (a local motor shop). They bring them out in their fancy generator setting trailer and set them. After they're hooked up they come back out again to go through the checklist and fire it up (required to keep the warranty valid; it's all part of the price).


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## captkirk

MDShunk said:


> I don't think you can unless you have an engine mechanic on staff. I buy Kohler from the Kohler dealer (a local motor shop). They bring them out in their fancy generator setting trailer and set them. After they're hooked up they come back out again to go through the checklist and fire it up (required to keep the warranty valid; it's all part of the price).


 The customer wants to buy the unit but my thinking was if I was to buy it I could get a better contractor deal and make a few more bucks on it.


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## 480sparky

captkirk said:


> The customer wants to buy the unit but my thinking was if I was to buy it I could get a better contractor deal and make a few more bucks on it.


I do better with selling a service contract after the unit has been commissioned.


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## captkirk

480sparky said:


> I do better with selling a service contract after the unit has been commissioned.


 I know that you dont like to talk numbers on line but is the contract a month to month thing or yearly...? and how many times a year do you service them..?


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## frenchelectrican

If it was for myself I will say get Kohler just stay away from Generarc I have issue with those peice of merde long story short too many specal parts and get service IMO it kinda in stink catogery area.

That why I always go with Cat or Kohler and couple others and they are easy to service and get parts if need to.

Merci,Marc


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## kbsparky

A good Kohler unit = 1800 RPM engine speed
Generac units = 3600 RPM

Always go for the 1800 RPM units; they have better guts, engine operates at ½ the speed, run quieter, last longer, etc.


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## Bob Badger

Every Genrac unit should be melted down and sold as scrap.

The engineers that design them should be fired.

The bosses that approved the design should be shot.

I just wired a 80 KW 208Y/120 Genrac unit and it was total crap along with the ATS that went with it.

For instance the neutral lug was mounted facing in where you could not access it, the wiring compartment had spinning parts in it so you better be careful how you route the wiring.


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## MDShunk

Beware also that Generac also private brand labels their generators, so you'll find Generac's with other brand names slapped on the outside. Siemens and Coleman come to mind, but I know there are others. Chances are pretty good that if you're looking at a packaged 3600rpm generator, you stand a pretty good chance of looking at a Generac, no matter what brand name is on the outside.


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## Southeast Power

If its a good customer, use Kohler. If they are cheap SOBs get them a Generac.
I avoid Generac (even worse are Guardians) as much as I can.
If you need to purchase a Kohler, got to the website, look up the support # and they will transfer your call to a local deaer.


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## nrp3

How about the Cummins/Onan units? I am pricing some 30kw units for a customer. The dealer sells Kohler as well. He did mention that running 1800 rpm was good for a lot of reasons, but oil consumption was a big one.


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## Southeast Power

nrp3 said:


> How about the Cummins/Onan units? I am pricing some 30kw units for a customer. The dealer sells Kohler as well. He did mention that running 1800 rpm was good for a lot of reasons, but oil consumption was a big one.


 I would consider Onan as an upgrade to a Kohler


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## MDShunk

jrannis said:


> I would consider Onan as an upgrade to a Kohler


I have an Onan on my one bucket truck, and it's about as bullet-proof as you can get. Onans are popularly featured on RV's, boats, and tractor-trailers.


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## captkirk

they are that bad huh....I guess its going to be Kohler.....


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## Bob Badger

nrp3 said:


> How about the Cummins/Onan units?


I have worked with a large number of these from 2 cylinder to 10 cylinder from new to 30 or more years old and I like them.


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## B4T

I have sold Guardian Generators for the past (6) years and have never had a problem with their units... (11) total. :thumbsup:

The sizes were from 7 - 20kw and they continue to make changes along the way.

Only thing I don't like is GENERAC charging $300.00 to ship me (15) maintenance kits. :furious:

Total weight is less than 15 pounds and they want $300.00 

If they ship a 500 pound generator, shipping costs $120.00


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## 480sparky

captkirk said:


> I know that you dont like to talk numbers on line but is the contract a month to month thing or yearly...? and how many times a year do you service them..?


I just peddle the paperwork. I don't do the service work myself... that's for the guy who does the servicing. I just tack on a nice tidy profit for myself and resell the service to the customer.

It's generaly a twice-annual check-up. Once in the spring, and once inthe fall. Technician shows up, checks everything out, changes the oil, routine maintenance stuff. Anything serious I get a call and I contact the customer to see what they want to do about it.


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## kbsparky

Black4Truck said:


> .... thing I don't like is GENERAC charging $300.00 to ship me (15) maintenance kits. :furious:
> 
> Total weight is less than 15 pounds and they want $300.00
> 
> If they ship a 500 pound generator, shipping costs $120.00


This should tell you a LOT about the company you are dealing with. I would never want to deal with any company that selectively rips you off like that.


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## randomkiller

MDShunk said:


> Generac = gener crap
> 
> If you're making me choose between the two, the Kohler is what I'll pick any day.


 
I'm right here with MD on this one. I have done too many repairs and spent too much time on the phone with Genercrap for them too be worth the plastic there are built with.


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## ohmontherange

Don't know anything about them.
All I use at my sites are Onan or Catapillar.


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## B4T

Kirk.. how did you make out with the generator sale??

What size are you going with


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## Installer101

*Kohler vs. Generac*

I have had experience with both systems and I would have to say that I prefer the Generac product hands down. It is far easier to install with the pre-wired whips and pre-drilled holes. Plus you have much more flexibility with kW sizes and enclosure materials. They also have much cleaner power, I believe it is less than 5% total harmonic distortion, Kohler doesn't list theirs. Plus the customers really like the quiet test feature. Since all of the systems exercise, they like the fact that the units exercise at the lower RPM instead of full speed. It saves them fuel and is less noisy. My vote is Generac.


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## Bob Badger

Installer101 said:


> I have had experience with both systems and I would have to say that I prefer the Generac product hands down. It is far easier to install with the pre-wired whips and pre-drilled holes. Plus you have much more flexibility with kW sizes and enclosure materials. They also have much cleaner power, I believe it is less than 5% total harmonic distortion, Kohler doesn't list theirs. *Plus the customers really like the quiet test feature. Since all of the systems exercise, they like the fact that the units exercise at the lower RPM instead of full speed. It saves them fuel and is less noisy. My vote is Generac*.


The other units run at half the speed of the Generac under load or test. 



Generac is crap, no two ways about it.

You would not happen to be a dealer of generac would you?


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## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> ...............You would not happen to be a dealer of generac would you?


Seems a big coincidence he's from Wisconsin, and that _just happens_ to be where Generac is HQ'd...........


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## frenchelectrican

Bob Badger said:


> The other units run at half the speed of the Generac under load or test.
> 
> 
> 
> Generac is crap, no two ways about it.
> 
> You would not happen to be a dealer of generac would you?





480sparky said:


> Seems a big coincidence he's from Wisconsin, and that _just happens_ to be where Generac is HQ'd...........


 I am pretty sure if he is from Miluwakee area. if so he probley is a dealer for Generac.

For me the Generac did asked me if I want to join in thier dealearship I turn them down.

Merci,Marc


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## captkirk

Black4Truck said:


> Kirk.. how did you make out with the generator sale??
> 
> What size are you going with


she is going to go with a 30 KW kohler. I appreciate the help guys. I kept the generac out of the picture. Also I may have gotten my EC buddy a 20,000 kw solar job from her. I'll post some pics when im done with it.


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## Southeast Power

Black4Truck said:


> I have sold Guardian Generators for the past (6) years and have never had a problem with their units... (11) total. :thumbsup:
> 
> The sizes were from 7 - 20kw and they continue to make changes along the way.
> 
> Only thing I don't like is GENERAC charging $300.00 to ship me (15) maintenance kits. :furious:
> 
> Total weight is less than 15 pounds and they want $300.00
> 
> If they ship a 500 pound generator, shipping costs $120.00


They might be the only choice for those micro units. If I was paying 30 or more grand for a generator, I would start with no less than a Kohler and go up from there.


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## vinster888

we service all kinds here and i have not had a difference from one to the other. the generacs we install are just as good as an other from the tote-arounds to 100kw.


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## B4T

vinster888 said:


> we service all kinds here and i have not had a difference from one to the other. the generacs we install are just as good as an other from the tote-arounds to 100kw.


You would know better than anyone else about the larger units.

Every brand has lemons and so far I have been lucky :thumbsup:

I had a problem with GENERAC about their shipping charges for "maintenance kits" and it turns out there was a glitch with their shipping programming.. problem solved :thumbup:


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## Norcal

A common nic for Generac is Generjunk.


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## Bob Badger

So Friday about noon I get called by the boss and told 'get to Provincetown MA ASAP' to meet the Generator tech to do an 'emergency start up' of the 80 KW Generac unit I mentioned earlier in the thread. He also said 'Do not leave that customer until that genset is ready for use and circuits cut over from a dead generator.

So I get there about 3 hours later, 130 miles and weekend Cape Cod traffic, the Generator tech is there along with a plumber from the company that ran the propane line. They tell me that they had it running, great life is good.:thumbsup:

No says the generator tech, when he started it he heard a noise, it turned out to be a shaft that extends the engine crankshaft out past the radiator to run the fan. It was not correctly aligned with the crank shaft. It has a 'flex' coupling but the misalignment was so severe it would have needed a universal joint not a metal 'flex plate' type joint.

He calls the factory support, gets the run around and finally gets a guy who knew that had been an issue, he explains the fix. It took the generator tech and plumber at least two hours working together to pretty much disassemble the entire front end modify some brackets and put it all back together again.

When the tech asked for job number so he could get paid for this extra work he was told that was part of the 'adjustments' necessary that he was already being paid for under the 'start up' pay. 

In the mean time I am helping out by pulling out the single 300 amp breaker it shipped with and installing the 200 and 100 amp breaker it was specified with, the gen tech would have done it but his hands where full as it was.

When we first saw the misalignment we talked about bringing in a portable genset and wiring that up outside ......... but can't do that because the Generac transfer switch has no provision for two wire start that a portable set would need. The Genrac ATS actual has no brain at all, that is in the Genset, the genset board runs the ATS (two of them in this case) via an RS-485 data connection. You also need a lap top plugged into the genset to make changes to voltage tolerance, transfer times etc. 

I was done at about 2:30 AM Sat morning, drove about an hour, slept in the truck for about 1.5 hours and finally got home about 6:30 AM Sat.


I hate Generac.


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## wildleg

Bob Badger said:


> So Friday about noon I get called by the boss and told 'get to Provincetown MA ASAP' to meet the Generator tech to do an 'emergency start up' of the 80 KW Generac unit I mentioned earlier in the thread. He also said 'Do not leave that customer until that genset is ready for use and circuits cut over from a dead generator.
> 
> So I get there about 3 hours later, 130 miles and weekend Cape Cod traffic, the Generator tech is there along with a plumber from the company that ran the propane line. They tell me that they had it running, great life is good.:thumbsup:
> 
> No says the generator tech, when he started it he heard a noise, it turned out to be a shaft that extends the engine crankshaft out past the radiator to run the fan. It was not correctly aligned with the crank shaft. It has a 'flex' coupling but the misalignment was so severe it would have needed a universal joint not a metal 'flex plate' type joint.
> 
> He calls the factory support, gets the run around and finally gets a guy who knew that had been an issue, he explains the fix. It took the generator tech and plumber at least two hours working together to pretty much disassemble the entire front end modify some brackets and put it all back together again.
> 
> When the tech asked for job number so he could get paid for this extra work he was told that was part of the 'adjustments' necessary that he was already being paid for under the 'start up' pay.
> 
> In the mean time I am helping out by pulling out the single 300 amp breaker it shipped with and installing the 200 and 100 amp breaker it was specified with, the gen tech would have done it but his hands where full as it was.
> 
> When we first saw the misalignment we talked about bringing in a portable genset and wiring that up outside ......... but can't do that because the Generac transfer switch has no provision for two wire start that a portable set would need. The Genrac ATS actual has no brain at all, that is in the Genset, the genset board runs the ATS (two of them in this case) via an RS-485 data connection. You also need a lap top plugged into the genset to make changes to voltage tolerance, transfer times etc.
> 
> I was done at about 2:30 AM Sat morning, drove about an hour, slept in the truck for about 1.5 hours and finally got home about 6:30 AM Sat.
> 
> 
> I hate Generac.


 
you shoulda just slept on the beach and gone fishin

(note to self: put emergency surf casting rod in truck)


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## frenchelectrican

Well..,, 

There is a other person to add on the list whom they don't like the dammed Generarc generators.

I got one early this moring and that was kinda like headache it never ran right due this is a LP unit and to make it worst some dolt have the LP in wrong format. this generator is set up to take in vapor instead of liquid draw which the dolt did and got the regulator frezze up pretty bad { about quarter inch of ice there } and to make it worst have main fuel valve nozzle set up for natural gas instead of LP that part I don't know why that dolt did it.

Took me 2 hours to fix it right and run good now.

Merci,Marc


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## MDShunk

frenchelectrican said:


> I got one early this moring and that was kinda like headache it never ran right due this is a LP unit and to make it worst some dolt have the LP in wrong format. this generator is set up to take in vapor instead of liquid draw which the dolt did and got the regulator frezze up pretty bad { about quarter inch of ice there } and to make it worst have main fuel valve nozzle set up for natural gas instead of LP that part I don't know why that dolt did it.


Flashback. 

When everyone was scared about all this Y2K stuff, I wired up a few dozen "propane vaporizers" at various business and factory locations. It's a machine that mixes enough air with propane that you can run your natural gas furnaces and appliances off propane for a backup. It's not especially efficient, and your fireboxes will rumble pretty good, but it was an excellent backup solution for building owners concerned that the natural gas supply might go out. You just go out and throw a few valves around to turn off the natural gas supply and start bringing in the propane/air mixture.


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## MF Dagger

I worked at some apartment buildings doing maintenance for a couple years and they had propane as a backup. And also they got a break on the energy bill if they had that backup in place, the gas company would call about once a winter and tell them to switch over to propane. When yoiu switched it over you have to check each boiler to make sure the pilot light didn't blow out at the switch. We had 22 boilers we had to check the pilots on and it never failed that right when we got done checking them all we would get the call to switch back and the whole thing would start over. It was a pretty much an all day ordeal but I guess it saved the company a barn fulll of money


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## ahrambakr

*Please, Help to remove Fault*

Mr.MDShunk, I need your help
I have a kohler mitsubishi generator 1600 Kw. it is the first time to deal with this generator. the problem is in the control panel as follows, as you know the panel has selesctor switch with 3 positions: Auto,Off/Reset and Run. I always start this generator only when City power is OFF for one hour or more
last time when i tried to start the generator I put the selector switch to Run position but the LCD shows EMERGENCY STOP and the led for SYSTEM SHUTDOWN is ON. I checked the Emegency Stop Switch and i found it OK.
So, please try to help me
wirh all my respect


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## Magnettica

********* warning **************


********* old thread alert *************


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## Frasbee

Holy Egypt!


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## thegoldenboy

I can't see from all the dust that just got kicked up. inch:


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## captkirk

tai la han habibi.....Ahlah akbar...my friend...this thread is ooooooold....if you have a quesion start a new thread and im sure someone will help you out...


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## Magnettica

so what did you wind up installing here captkirk?


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## ahrambakr

*thank for all of you*

Good Reply 
but, I need to Know what is my mistake? 
what is wrong in my question? 
please, reply


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## ahrambakr

*Help*

how can I make New thread?


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## Magnettica

ahrambakr said:


> how can I make New thread?


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## ahrambakr

Alot of thanks


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## PsiMan84

captkirk said:


> What are some of your opinions on the two generators? which one is more better..? I have a customer that wants a kohler to feed their 400 amp service but I really would like to get them to go with a generac. I would like persuade them to generac but I need some hard info on why its better. I am doing this with another EC and he uses generac. If the customer insists on Kohler what is entailed with me becoming a "dealer" with them..? Thanks for your replies..


Kohler! only problem we have in our area is finding a decent service company that knows anything about them.and i'm talking about the bigger generators not the small rolll around with a kohler engine. THere are many generac service ppl but that should tell you something about how good they are. :laughing:


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## captkirk

Magnettica said:


> so what did you wind up installing here captkirk?


I quoted for a 20Kw Millbank single phase air cooled generator. The customer is still waiting to make decision. I was there friday installing a couple of 30 amp twist locks for two ups. I was speaking to his head IT guy and I got a pretty good feeling from him. They arent in a rush. Im just wishing for a small black out this summer. That will help him make up his mind a little quicker.. I really hope he goes with me, it will be a really nice money job..... Oh wait a minute I just realized which job this was for....No I never got this one. It went to someone that sold him on a generac. I was pushing a Kohler... LOL this is a really old thread.


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## All About Theory

kbsparky said:


> A good Kohler unit = 1800 RPM engine speed
> Generac units = 3600 RPM
> 
> Always go for the 1800 RPM units; they have better guts, engine operates at ½ the speed, run quieter, last longer, etc.


I'd definately put a 1800rpm next to my house before a 3600 and I have nothing to say in Generac's defense other than being built in america by americans. (which I believe Kohler is too) Although there is a flipside to the coin; higher RPM = more momentum depending on the weight of the rotor and flywheel. 3600rpm may one day prove to be useful for frequency sensative loads since it could "coast" through engine hiccups. ...Though some sort of unidirectional slip clutch may be needed to utilize this. Just something to consider before we toss the 3600rpm baby out with the bathwater. Making decisions and declarations based on half information I've found is more dangerous than having no information.


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## B4T

captkirk said:


> I quoted for a 20Kw Millbank single phase air cooled generator. The customer is still waiting to make decision. I was there friday installing a couple of 30 amp twist locks for two ups. I was speaking to his head IT guy and I got a pretty good feeling from him. They arent in a rush. Im just wishing for a small black out this summer. That will help him make up his mind a little quicker.. I really hope he goes with me, it will be a really nice money job..... Oh wait a minute I just realized which job this was for....No I never got this one. *It went to someone that sold him on a generac*. I was pushing a Kohler... LOL this is a really old thread.


So you tried to sell them a higher priced less known generator and lost the job.. gee I wonder why.. :whistling2:


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## BuzzKill

captkirk said:


> What are some of your opinions on the two generators? which one is more better..? I have a customer that wants a kohler to feed their 400 amp service but I really would like to get them to go with a generac. I would like persuade them to generac but I need some hard info on why its better. I am doing this with another EC and he uses generac. If the customer insists on Kohler what is entailed with me becoming a "dealer" with them..? Thanks for your replies..


Have you NOT seen these guys rant against generac? It's a 1-10 like/dislike ratio...it goes back years.


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## B4T

BuzzKill said:


> Have you NOT seen these guys rant against generac? It's a 1-10 like/dislike ratio...it goes back years.


People always knock the competition and Generac is still top dog in the generator world of residential units..


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## ohmontherange

All About Theory said:


> I'd definately put a 1800rpm next to my house before a 3600 and I have nothing to say in Generac's defense other than being built in america by americans. (which I believe Kohler is too) Although there is a flipside to the coin; higher RPM = more momentum depending on the weight of the rotor and flywheel. 3600rpm may one day prove to be useful for frequency sensative loads since it could "coast" through engine hiccups. ...Though some sort of unidirectional slip clutch may be needed to utilize this. Just something to consider before we toss the 3600rpm baby out with the bathwater. Making decisions and declarations based on half information I've found is more dangerous than having no information.


Not sure where you are going with this. I will admit I don't have any experience with small generators in a resi setting - the last gen job I did was redundant 350 KW's & an 80 KVA UPS in a data center. 

With that our primary concern is non linear load interaction on the generators and their ability to regulate voltage / frequency under varying load conditions. The UPS is obviously sensitive to input voltage / frequency variations and the effect of other loads coming online - CRAC's, VFD's, etc have an effect as well. A well designed generator does not cause voltage distortion / frequency variations - loads do. 

There are regulator designs that "isolate" the generator from these effects, The key is determining what type load you are trying to power up and the level of reliability you are trying to deliver.


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## balrog

Ok, so I am probably going to get the Kohler 20resal I got prices at Lowes, Home Depot, and from a Kohler installer. The Kohler installer is about 1500 more just for the unit and transfer switch. I own a plumbing and electric company and plan on installing this myself. I've installed transfer switches for portable generators in the past and don't see this being anymore complicated. Like I said we do plumbing so the gas line is also a non issue. Now the Kohler installer defended his price by comparing the 2 saying that the Lowes model does not include the following: *different on cue controller *no carburetor heater *no battery *no factory start-up So I confirmed all of this with Kohler. Rep said it does come with a different controller but we didn't get into the details. I really don't see me even using this anyway. Can someone explain the differences? No carb heater.... I was informed that if I wanted this option I would have to get from a dealer. Any idea on the cost of this and how necessary is it? Battery... rep simply said they do not ship batteries. Get one at any auto dealer. Let's say $100 tops. Factory start up... I'm confident I can handle this myself. So, with this information and being a knowledgeable 'tech type' person is their any real reason I would go with a dealer at a much higher price as opposed to Lowes? Any help, comments, suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks, Andy


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## Chris1971

Kohler is a better product.


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## B4T

Chris1971 said:


> Kohler is a better product.


Is that your personal opinion or do you have some facts to back it up... :whistling2::laughing:


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## Going_Commando

B4T said:


> Is that your personal opinion or do you have some facts to back it up... :whistling2::laughing:


Well first off, the Kohler has the brains of the transfer in the transfer switch where it belongs. Second, Kohler doesn't use a $2 Chinese battery charger that they charge ungodly amounts of money for, that fail regularly. Third, Generac doesn't give you a convenient way to get to the back cylinder on the V-Twins. Have you had to replace a bent valve on the back cylinder of a Generac? I have, and it sucks, and takes forever because you have to work practically upside down leaning over the unit. 

You get what you pay for when you buy a Generac. They are the most prevalent because they are the cheapest standby unit, and have been for years. They also make it quick and easy to install them, but they don't give you all the parts to make it a legal installation because they don't include a disconnecting means like the code requires, so you still have to hack up their pre-packaged kits. All you have to do is look at a Kohler or an Onan resi unit and you can see they are head and shoulders above the Generac in every way.


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## FranklinsApprentice

I know this is an old thread but interesting to see the opinions out there. When deciding what dealer I would become, I decided Generac based on there dominance. Yes I saw the negative reviews but that's going to be normal for a brand that has 70% of the market. I liked how Generac made there engines specifically for generators. Is Kohler's engine made specific or is it used in other applications? Also I didn't like the plastic housing. If this thing catches on fire, it's turning into a puddle.

Has Generac gotten better since 2009. Ive installed 2 and have 5 more on the calender. I believe I made the right decision.


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## FranklinsApprentice

Going_Commando said:


> Well first off, the Kohler has the brains of the transfer in the transfer switch where it belongs. Second, Kohler doesn't use a $2 Chinese battery charger that they charge ungodly amounts of money for, that fail regularly. Third, Generac doesn't give you a convenient way to get to the back cylinder on the V-Twins. Have you had to replace a bent valve on the back cylinder of a Generac? I have, and it sucks, and takes forever because you have to work practically upside down leaning over the unit.
> 
> You get what you pay for when you buy a Generac. They are the most prevalent because they are the cheapest standby unit, and have been for years. They also make it quick and easy to install them, but they don't give you all the parts to make it a legal installation because they don't include a disconnecting means like the code requires, so you still have to hack up their pre-packaged kits. All you have to do is look at a Kohler or an Onan resi unit and you can see they are head and shoulders above the Generac in every way.


That's the best explanation so far. I'm keeping my options open.


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## millelec

I'm more comfortable w/the slower speed unit. less wear and tear on machine. We had 1200 RPM Cats (diesels) that were prime power units (600 KW) and they ran for 38 years. Cat only makes 1800 RPM machines now, I think. 3600 RPM just seems like a gnat buzzing away.


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## user4818

Going_Commando said:


> All you have to do is look at a Kohler or an Onan resi unit and you can see they are head and shoulders above the Generac in every way.


I saw an Onan unit at a boat show recently (they had their marine units and one resi unit on display) and the Onan looked like an awesome generator. Pricey but great quality and very well designed.


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## Going_Commando

Peter D said:


> I saw an Onan unit at a boat show recently (they had their marine units and one resi unit on display) and the Onan looked like an awesome generator. Pricey but great quality and very well designed.


I've only worked on one Onan home standby that has been made in the past 10 years (all the rest were waaay older than that and still ticking), and it was the easiest generator I have ever worked on. It used a boxer engine design, so the valve covers are sitting right in your face when you pop off the side covers of the enclosure. Everything was really easy to get to, plus the main breaker on the thing was a Square-D QO. The older ones are also super easy to work on, but they were designed for interior installation and didn't have enclosures, so that was a given. The transfer switches were also incredibly user friendly and were very logically laid out. The only trouble is getting people to cough up the dough for one, since they are $1000 more than a Kohler, if I remember correctly.


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## etb

Placed a 20kw today and as a habit I check tightness on every nut bolt and screw. Found a nut, stud, and a bolt that the factory workers dropped in the unit. Lid latch had come loose and fell off in shipping. Ground connection was loose. One breaker lugs was so loose I unscrewed it with my fingers on the _shaft_ of the screwdriver. Worst of all: the neutral connection was completely loose! (The insulated stud where 2,3,L0 connect.) I've always thought highly of Kohler quality, but a loose neutral? Pays to check. The positive battery cable also rubs against the sharp fan grille; gonna have to throw some scrap sheath over that.


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## Chris1971

etb said:


> Placed a 20kw today and as a habit I check tightness on every nut bolt and screw. Found a nut, stud, and a bolt that the factory workers dropped in the unit. Lid latch had come loose and fell off in shipping. Ground connection was loose. One breaker lugs was so loose I unscrewed it with my fingers on the _shaft_ of the screwdriver. Worst of all: the neutral connection was completely loose! (The insulated stud where 2,3,L0 connect.) I've always thought highly of Kohler quality, but a loose neutral? Pays to check. The positive battery cable also rubs against the sharp fan grille; gonna have to throw some scrap sheath over that.


Likely an isolated incident. Never have had such issues you described. I do however check all factory connections before placing into service.


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## Legacyelectric

etb said:


> Placed a 20kw today and as a habit I check tightness on every nut bolt and screw. Found a nut, stud, and a bolt that the factory workers dropped in the unit. Lid latch had come loose and fell off in shipping. Ground connection was loose. One breaker lugs was so loose I unscrewed it with my fingers on the shaft of the screwdriver. Worst of all: the neutral connection was completely loose! (The insulated stud where 2,3,L0 connect.) I've always thought highly of Kohler quality, but a loose neutral? Pays to check. The positive battery cable also rubs against the sharp fan grille; gonna have to throw some scrap sheath over that.


Recently installed a 20kW Kohler unit... Shipped UPS. The first TWO units they shipped me had broken motor mounts. Third one was ok. Definitely pays to check! I'm not entirely sold on the all fiberglass enclosures on the new Kohlers. I am a Kohler man though for sure.


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## FranklinsApprentice

OK, so what's this talk of 1800 rpm. I just compared generac, Kohler, and Onan 20 kw and they all run at 3600. 

With 200 amp ATS:

Onan: $7200
Kohler: $5000
Generac : $4300

How could I justify selling sell an Onan? Kohler I can see and it might be nice to present the different generators with my options. I guess I could offer the Onan as the top option so the others look like a really good deal


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## gglav2

Kohler by far Generac are junk they have nice package kits for wiring that about the only good thing they are more popular. But the kohler is the way to go there so different in quality you cant even compare. A lot of customer dont wanna pay the exchange for the kohler. But if i was buying one it would be the kohler.I installed one for my neighbor about 5 years ago. He was going for the generac cuz it was cheaper it there junk i said. he did some research and went with the kohler plus its quieter a lot quieter.


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## Going_Commando

gglav2 said:


> Kohler by far Generac are junk they have nice package kits for wiring that about the only good thing they are more popular. But the kohler is the way to go there so different in quality you cant even compare. A lot of customer dont wanna pay the exchange for the kohler. But if i was buying one it would be the kohler.I installed one for my neighbor about 5 years ago. He was going for the generac cuz it was cheaper it there junk i said. he did some research and went with the kohler plus its quieter a lot quieter.


Those generac package kits are handy, but they don't meet code since they don't include a disconnect, so you still have to hack the kit to pieces to have your disconnecting means on the building.


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## FranklinsApprentice

Going_Commando said:


> Those generac package kits are handy, but they don't meet code since they don't include a disconnect, so you still have to hack the kit to pieces to have your disconnecting means on the building.


They are great. Btw Generac has moved to a standard 5 year warranty on the 20 kw. Im sure the others will follow.

Thankfully my jurisdiction counts the main breaker on the generator as the main disonnect as long as you don't put a lock on it.

Go Generac!


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## Bulldog1

FranklinsApprentice said:


> They are great. Btw Generac has moved to a standard 5 year warranty on the 20 kw. Im sure the others will follow.
> 
> Thankfully my jurisdiction counts the main breaker on the generator as the main disonnect as long as you don't put a lock on it.
> 
> Go Generac!




Kohler has had a 5 year 2000 hour warranty for quite some time now. Set a Kohler and a Generac side by side and look at the difference in quality. Kohers have a heat shield similar to what is under the hood of your vehicle you lift to access the motor etc. Kohler builds a quality generator that is reliable and is by far a better generator than a generac.


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## Bulldog1

FranklinsApprentice said:


> OK, so what's this talk of 1800 rpm. I just compared generac, Kohler, and Onan 20 kw and they all run at 3600.
> 
> With 200 amp ATS:
> 
> Onan: $7200
> Kohler: $5000
> Generac : $4300
> 
> How could I justify selling sell an Onan? Kohler I can see and it might be nice to present the different generators with my options. I guess I could offer the Onan as the top option so the others look like a really good deal



Water cooled units run at 1800 rpm. All air cooled run at 3600 rpm. Kohler is a better product than an Onan IMO. Price wise they are about the same.


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## Bulldog1

FranklinsApprentice said:


> OK, so what's this talk of 1800 rpm. I just compared generac, Kohler, and Onan 20 kw and they all run at 3600.
> 
> With 200 amp ATS:
> 
> Onan: $7200
> Kohler: $5000
> Generac : $4300
> 
> How could I justify selling sell an Onan? Kohler I can see and it might be nice to present the different generators with my options. I guess I could offer the Onan as the top option so the others look like a really good deal



Kohlers 20resal package includes a non se ATS and a 20resal genny for $5098.00. The onan package for $6k has a se ats. A Kohler 20resa with a se ats is around $5600.00


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## Ericf29

One word. Cummins. Proven power ad reliability. Well worth the money. Drive one every day why not let it back up my house. All data centers and hospitals rely on them around here in nj


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## pudge565

MDShunk said:


> Flashback.
> 
> When everyone was scared about all this Y2K stuff, I wired up a few dozen "propane vaporizers" at various business and factory locations. It's a machine that mixes enough air with propane that you can run your natural gas furnaces and appliances off propane for a backup. It's not especially efficient, and your fireboxes will rumble pretty good, but it was an excellent backup solution for building owners concerned that the natural gas supply might go out. You just go out and throw a few valves around to turn off the natural gas supply and start bringing in the propane/air mixture.


The place I used to work had a propane vaporizer to keep up with demand for vapor. Natural gas was not an option so they had to rely on vapor, however sometimes their draw was more than that available so they had a liquid withdrawal line set up to a vaporizer tied into the vapor line for such incidents. For some reason the liquid reservoir on it ruptured and the whole thing was a ball of flame.


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## macmikeman

Hi Pudge. :chinese:


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## ngc789

*rpm*



kbsparky said:


> A good Kohler unit = 1800 RPM engine speed
> Generac units = 3600 RPM
> 
> Always go for the 1800 RPM units; they have better guts, engine operates at ½ the speed, run quieter, last longer, etc.


Kohler spec sheets show 3600 rpm for their residential generators:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/msrpsheetsaircooled.pdf

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4209.pdf


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## ngc789

*fuel consumption indicate actual RPM?*

Comparing 20k Generac and Kohler units.

Both Operating RPM's listed @ 3600
Both displacements = 999cc

But NG consumptions are different. 

At 50% load, 60Hz:
Generac = 205 cfh ~30%+
Kohler = 161 cfh

At full load, 60Hz:
Generac = 308 cfh ~10%+
Kohler = 281 cfh

LPG consumptions are closer.

At 50% load, 60Hz:
Generac = 75.6 cfh
Kohler = 82 cfh ~8%+

At full load, 60Hz:
Generac = 140 cfh ~3%+
Kohler = 136 cfh


It would be nice to know the assumptions made in the specs above. That half load difference is pretty significant.


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## greenlee

I have a customer who before i knew him had a whole house reno complete with a generac unit. During a power failure witin 15 months after it was installed the transfer switch malfunctioned and caught fire. F.D. shut power and ripped it off the bsmt wall. The gc did'nt return any of his calls from then on. A kohler 30 resa took its place and other than one repaired oil leak runs fine.


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## FranklinsApprentice

greenlee said:


> I have a customer who before i knew him had a whole house reno complete with a generac unit. During a power failure witin 15 months after it was installed the transfer switch malfunctioned and caught fire. F.D. shut power and ripped it off the bsmt wall. The gc did'nt return any of his calls from then on. A kohler 30 resa took its place and other than one repaired oil leak runs fine.


Hmm, no way it was installer error, huh? It goes both ways. I've heard failure stories with Kholer as well. When you have 70% of the market, there's going to be some failures. They're made by people. People aren't perfect.


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## Brynn217

*Generac vs Kohler*

Well, I am an authorized Tech for Both. I have installed well over 40 Units of Generac and prob about a dozen Kohler. I own my own company and prefer the current generation of Generac Units...

The Transfer Switch with the Load Shedding options allowing 4 Priority areas is the nicest setup of any brand I have installed (which includes the Cummin Onan)... The ease of Load Shedding using 120v Coil Contactors are great. Load Shedding adds 250 to 600 to the cost of most jobs lately, and Maryland has all adopted the 2011 Code.

There are little quirks about each Brand overall, but for ease of installation, Generac is the Best. I do not like the hookup from the Kohler systems. And if anyone has seen the GE Transfer Switches, make sure to either replace all the wiring inside or Hi-press cap the ends that are terminated, they decided to use Welding Wire instead of Bus Bars between the Main Breaker and Contactor. The Terminals have been coming loose and Maryland has issued warning to such.

I have seen some very bad installations too, I walked up on a Kohler system that someone had run SEU to & from (no SER), never made the Main Service into a Sub panel and BUGGED the SEU's inside the Meter Can to get from the Transfer Switch to the Panel inside the House.

Good Luck with whatever Units you use....


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## FranklinsApprentice

Brynn217 said:


> Well, I am an authorized Tech for Both. I have installed well over 40 Units of Generac and prob about a dozen Kohler. I own my own company and prefer the current generation of Generac Units....


Generac really did a good job with the 2013 models. This should change a lot of the mindsets of what people think of their generators.


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## B4T

Generac is constantly upgrading their units so the haters are running out of things to bitch about...

Their present design is the best yet for ease of installation.. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ

B4T said:


> Generac is constantly upgrading their units so the haters are running out of things to bitch about...
> 
> Their present design is the best yet for ease of installation.. :thumbsup:




It's too bad you have never gotten to work on real generators you would be a hater of those generac units as well. :thumbsup:

Even you recently admitted that the terminal area sucks with its push button terminals and lack of space. 

Have you ever worked on a Caterpillar, or a Volvo, or even a Cummings Onan?
All them provide much better connection areas and are not made of pressed tinfoil. :laughing:


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## nrp3

I have one Cummins 30k liquid cooled and its great. The rest are generac. I would expect the leap from resi units to things that power hospitals and such be worlds apart. Still most comfortable installing a Generac as I can service it and get parts for it. I won't trash the Kohler because I haven't installed one. I'm sure its a good unit. I do work on a couple of Briggs units. GE I expect to be exactly the same as it is. Doing more repairs than installs these days. Looking forward to trying out some of the new Evolution controller models.


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## BBQ

nrp3 said:


> I would expect the leap from resi units to things that power hospitals and such be worlds apart.


No doubt but I work in buildings that use Onan, Kohler and Generac of the same output. 60 to 150 kw and even in those sizes I would rate them in that order.


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## nrp3

I respect that too, because I realize I don't swim in that pool. I know better than to tackle that stuff at this point and to find someone who does to better serve the customers. There are times that I call up the bigger outfits to get things done. Even with the resi stuff its a learning curve. Trying to find parts for the older stuff or other brands and not being a dealer can be tough as it is. Haven't found a unit that I haven't been able to fix yet (small stuff) but still learning.


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