# I want to change commercial code!



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I think that any and all commercial jobs, if you are wiring an office area, every room must have a dedicated plug for space heaters.

Now, we don't know if it'll be a boy or a girl who sits at those desks, but I tell you, it should be code. I think that 80% of women in commercial offices have space heaters, and one of the more common things we do is adding plugs for space heaters for women.

Really, I swear, it's true.

I've heard of 1 small fire, and many trips. I guess women don't know that space heaters take a lot of juice! (like coffee makers- suprisingly juicy. the movie apollo 13, they imply that the astronauts can only use enough juice to "power that coffee maker" but that's a lot of juice!)

So:

How many watts does your coffee maker take?

and...

Do you commonly go in to add circuits for space heaters?

(I"m in canada, so maybe you don't have the same issues)


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I think that any and all commercial jobs, if you are wiring an office area, every room must have a dedicated plug for space heaters.
> 
> Now, we don't know if it'll be a boy or a girl who sits at those desks, but I tell you, it should be code. I think that 80% of women in commercial offices have space heaters, and one of the more common things we do is adding plugs for space heaters for women.
> 
> ...


 The best way to deal with that is to "FIRE" those Emloyees that want space heaters they are there to work not be comfertable.:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

It is the HVAC guys who supply the heat in an office.. not my job.. :no:

If the women are cold, they can bring a sweater from home..


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes, we are always adding space heating circuits to new office buildings. I think 1 dedicated circuit per desk space would work fine. It would handle a small heater and your standard office equipment. Especially if it is a federal panel :thumbsup:.The last building we fixed had 3 offices with 11 receptacles and all the lighting on one circuit. (no wonder the company won the bid for that job) The federal sp15 was holding a continuous load of 17 amps.

I think the comment on apollo 13 was "you can't run a vacuum cleaner on 12 amps"


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Addressing the comments of "man up". It can get cold working at a desk all day when the mercury drops below -20. My boss uses a space heater while doing paperwork. And I doubt you would tell him to "go home and put on a sweater".

I would bet it's much more cost effective to heat the space under a desk than to raise the temp in the building a couple degrees.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

farlsincharge said:


> Addressing the comments of "man up". It can get cold working at a desk all day when the mercury drops below -20. My boss uses a space heater while doing paperwork. And I doubt you would tell him to "go home and put on a sweater".
> 
> I would bet it's much more cost effective to heat the space under a desk than to raise the temp in the building a couple degrees.


Using a 1500 watt electric heater under each desk is far from "cost effective".. :no:

The HVAC system should be designed to provide 68 degrees no matter what the outside temperature is..


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Mind you, I don't know much about Canada, but I'd be willing to bet your average temp is one heck of a lot lower than in the states.

Do you guys have the same 180VA requirement for commercial receptacles up there?

-John


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

kaboler said:


> I think that any and all commercial jobs, if you are wiring an office area, every room must have a dedicated plug for space heaters.
> 
> Now, we don't know if it'll be a boy or a girl who sits at those desks, but I tell you, it should be code. I think that 80% of women in commercial offices have space heaters, and one of the more common things we do is adding plugs for space heaters for women.
> 
> Really, I swear, it's true.


Damn straight it's true. LOL

I see this all the time!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

You don't make a code for what may be used.

This is entirely a design / management issue not a code issue.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

kaboler said:


> Do you commonly go in to add circuits for space heaters?


I did on a grocery store remodel.

The bookeeper was a fat woman with an office in the back. She had TWO space heaters, one for each flipper.

She got anything she wanted, even a C.O.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You don't make a code for what may be used.
> 
> This is entirely a design / management issue not a code issue.


So in other words it is the HVAC design..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So in other words it is the HVAC design..


No not at all, it is a management decision if they want to let people have heaters at the desks

Even in a building with a perfect HVAC system that maintains a constant temp some folks will always be cold and some hot.

Personally I am with you ..... let them wear sweaters but someplaces let them have heaters.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

farlsincharge said:


> Addressing the comments of "man up". It can get cold working at a desk all day when the mercury drops below -20. My boss uses a space heater while doing paperwork. And I doubt you would tell him to "go home and put on a sweater".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What is wrong with electric BB heaters in an office space?? :blink:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have two secretaries and two space heaters, Ill be hot, yet they have sweaters on and heater rolling on high.

See this all over.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If you want to change the code good luck-- I don't think it will get accepted but your in Canada so who knows. What I would do is get with the office people and try and upsell a new circuit specifically for that. I believe at UNC they have had to go in and retro many offices for this.

The problem is these heaters can add a substantial load to the building. I don't know why they can't design these HVAC systems better. 

The school my wife works in one classroom may be 75 degrees while another could be 55 degrees. It's nuts-- no homeowner would let a hvac guy get away with that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

farlsincharge said:


> ............I think the comment on apollo 13 was "you can't run a vacuum cleaner on 12 amps"



Yeah, but the CSM ran on 65 VDC.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I was on a service call for a lady who said there was something wrong with the circuit because her bathroom lights kept dimming, and sometimes tripped the breaker.

After poking around I pointed out that the dimming was intermittent, like something was turning on and off. The boss walked into the other room and saw an iron. Apparently they would leave their iron on all day, not only were they wasting a lot of electricity, but it was precariously sitting atop an ironing board covered in burn holes.

Genius.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I think a dedicated outlet like that is a design choice and shouldn't be a code issue.



Dennis Alwon said:


> The school my wife works in one classroom may be 75 degrees while another could be 55 degrees. It's nuts


I swear every school is like that.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> What is wrong with electric BB heaters in an office space?? :blink:


Nothing thats better than space Heater pluged into plug strips that are allready loaded up with other stuff like there mini refrigerators.

Im am just saying that they dont put them in office that allready have heating provided by the duct work:thumbsup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Make it a code? ARE YOU NUTS?! You can't charge near as much to install it new as you can on a service call!! $$$


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Make it a code? ARE YOU NUTS?! You can't charge near as much to install it new as you can on a service call!! $$$


 Agreed $$$$$$$$$$$:laughing::laughing:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

It's not your call if you're wiring according to the layout. Someone else drew the layout. If the need for a space heater arises, I consider that service work if the ambience isn't achieved initially by the HVAC control.

No, it shouldn't be code,.... not by any means. If the HVAC is not desirable by all, it's not the EC's problem. 

Should every cubicle have adequate branches for a coffee maker, a small fridge and a flat iron if the humidity is bad so they can look pretty at all times?????


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have never, repeat never had to add an outlet for a space heater in an office job yet.

Lots of added AC outlets though.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I have never, repeat never had to add an outlet for a space heater in an office job yet.





> Location: Honolulu


I wonder why? :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I wonder why? :laughing:


Maybe if he is lucky the ice age will come back:laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have two secretaries and two space heaters, Ill be hot, yet they have sweaters on and heater rolling on high.
> 
> See this all over.



Yes.

In many of the larger offices we have done the thermostats have a 'cool to warmer' adjustment on them but they may or may not work. Call them placebos.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Yes.
> 
> In many of the larger offices we have done the thermostats have a 'cool to warmer' adjustment on them but they may or may not work. Call them placebos.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

The accounting blondes fall for that every time?????

That was a good chuckle B.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

If I was your boss I would fire you for trying to add to the cost of jobs with your proposal and your proposal costing us service work when we go add a circuit for a space heater....YOUR FIRED!:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Each 1500 watt heater running (8) hours a day.. (5) days a week cost you $12.00.. based on .20 KWH

If they forget to shut them off.. $36.00 for the week..

I would be buying sweaters with business LOGO on the back or they can pay for the electric out of pocket

It cost $192.00 for (4) months of heating season turning off the heater at closing.

It cost $576.00 for (4) months of heating leaving it running 24/7 (5 days a week)


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Each 1500 watt heater running (8) hours a day.. (5) days a week cost you $12.00.. based on .20 KWH
> 
> If they forget to shut them off.. $36.00 for the week..
> 
> ...


As always _Here he comes to save the day_:laughing:

Yeah realizing a problem and implementing a solution in larger companies is not as easy as you would think.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> As always _Here he comes to save the day_:laughing:
> 
> Yeah realizing a problem and implementing a solution in larger companies is not as easy as you would think.


Plug in those numbers for (20) heaters and I think you can find a solution..

Call it a fire hazard and the insurance company wants them out.. :whistling2:

Then again, as stated by other members, it is work.. I will STFU now..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Plug in those numbers for (20) heaters and I think you can find a solution.


I already said you could, that is the easy part.

But making it happen is next to imposable unless it becomes the pet peeve of someone with a lot of pull.

I can't tell you how many times I am on loading docks with doors wide open while gas unit heaters are running. I could easily interconnect the doors to kill the unit heaters while the doors where open but no one is interested. :laughing:

I had to go out a on a call one night to a BestBuy that was down to just one or two registrars becuse the workers kept tripping the registrar circuit with a heater and once it tripped they just moved to the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Freaking morons ... :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I already said you could, that is the easy part.
> 
> Freaking morons ... :laughing:


Yet the company will put someone in charge of counting pens and paper clips, trying to cut down on overhead and employee theft.. :blink::blink:


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

They'd never make something like this code lol.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> ...In many of the larger offices we have done the thermostats have a 'cool to warmer' adjustment on them but they may or may not work. Call them placebos.


 :thumbup: Never heard of anyone else doing that. I used to do apartment maintenance and this was a really common solution I used when people repeatedly complained about their perfectly good furnaces. Worked like a charm.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> :thumbup: Never heard of anyone else doing that. I used to do apartment maintenance and this was a really common solution I used when people repeatedly complained about their perfectly good furnaces. Worked like a charm.
> 
> -John


In my case it was not us, it is the HVAC guys on the jobs. Many rooms will get these temperature probes which tell the central controller the temp in each location. Each probe has a 'warmer / cooler' slider on them and if it is in VIPs office the programing is set to adjust the temp by the slider, if it is in a large open area the slider will do nothing, in say a conference room the slider might do a little. That is why there will be no numbers on it.

In the VIPs office the difference between the full warm and full cool settings may be 20 F while in the conference room it may only be 5 F.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Make it a code? ARE YOU NUTS?! You can't charge near as much to install it new as you can on a service call!! $$$


Hell yeah! I've done a few of these type jobs this winter already. :thumbsup:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You don't make a code for what may be used.
> 
> This is entirely a design / management issue not a code issue.


 

What's the difference in the code requiring (2) SABC's? or 20 amp bath circuit? or laundry circuiit?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> :thumbup: Never heard of anyone else doing that. I used to do apartment maintenance and this was a really common solution I used when people repeatedly complained about their perfectly good furnaces. Worked like a charm.
> 
> -John



They do the same thing at stop lights. You don't really believe those "Push to cross street" bottoms are hooked up to anything, do you? :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> What's the difference in the code requiring (2) SABC's? or 20 amp bath circuit? or laundry circuiit?



In my own opinion?

Not much and I don't think those should be required by the NEC either. 


That said I think it could be reasonably argued that each home will use those circuits.

How would this new requirement for space heaters be written for commercial spaces.

_'No matter how many circuits an area is designed with at least one additional 20 amp 125 volt circuit will be installed for each X Sq Ft for possible future+ use of space heaters.'_

It seems kind of wasteful in areas like FL and TX.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BBQ said:


> It seems kind of wasteful in areas like FL and TX.


Both of those places experience temperatures in the freezing range each year. (Hey, same for the very top of our mountains as well, but few live up there...) They cheat when they try to pretend they are tropical....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> ..................
> How would this new requirement for space heaters be written for commercial spaces.
> 
> _'No matter how many circuits an area is designed with at least one additional 20 amp 125 volt circuit will be installed for each X Sq Ft for possible future+ use of space heaters.'_
> ...


Then how about extra circuits for air conditioners? :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Then how about extra circuits for air conditioners? :laughing:




Hmmm desk a/c units.........On a hot summer day I could have ice cold air blowing up my uniform shorts.....:shifty:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Hmmm desk a/c units.........On a hot summer day I could have ice cold air blowing up my uniform shorts.....:shifty:



But you would get chapped lips if that happened. :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> But you would get chapped lips if that happened. :thumbsup:




:no:


UNDER desk a/c units...


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Well, car plugs, there's a guy who plugs in his work van. He plugged it in like, December 24th, and it hasn't been unplugged since.

There's a cost to that too, but nobody really cares about cost.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I was in an office today and saw three of them running under various desks, plugged right in with their PC.
Up here we call em beaver heaters.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> I was in an office today and saw three of them running under various desks, plugged right in with their PC.


And you did not shut them off and tell the how wasteful they are? 





> we call em beaver heaters.



LMAO ...... learned something new today ......... cool. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> As always _Here he comes to save the day_:laughing:


$.30 an hour doesn't seem like a big waste until you look at the numbers I supplies.. but you were too busy making derogatory comments..  :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey new mods, somebody is po'd at the bbq. Hurry up and close this before it starts getting fun......


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Hey new mods, somebody is po'd at the bbq. Hurry up and close this before it starts getting fun......


That is not true.. :no:

BBQ lives in the land of OZ and sometimes he needs attitude adjustments so he can realize the world is not flat..  :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4, I was only macmikein around. Pardon me......:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> That is not true.. :no:
> 
> BBQ lives in the land of OZ and sometimes he needs attitude adjustments so he can realize the world is not flat..  :laughing:



But the world IS flat. I know, because I'm at the center. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> B4, I was only macmikein around. Pardon me......:laughing:


Anyone who lives with sand, warm water, and thongs all year long doesn't need a pardon for anything..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> But the world IS flat. I know, because I'm at the center. :laughing:



I believe that would be the center of the universe you are talking about.. :whistling2:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

There was a state park in Estero Florida near my old family house, that was sort of a museum to a cult from the 1800's called the Koreshans. They believed the world was inside out, the sun actually the center of the earth, with a big air gap between it and us living on the inside of the planets crust. http://www.floridastateparks.org/koreshan/default.cfm

La,la, la, land.......


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> There was a state park in Estero Florida near my old family house, that was sort of a museum to a cult from the 1800's called the Koreshans. They believed the world was inside out, the sun actually the center of the earth, with a big air gap between it and us living on the inside of the planets crust. http://www.floridastateparks.org/koreshan/default.cfm
> 
> La,la, la, land.......


Sounds like San Francisco on a Friday night.. :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> Anyone who lives with sand, warm water, and thongs all year long doesn't need a pardon for anything..


Now I'm mad. I do not wear a thong all year long..... Only during Kawanza.:laughing:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Ima Hack said:


> I was in an office today and saw three of them running under various desks, plugged right in with their PC.
> *Up here we call em beaver heaters.*





Sweet! :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> I believe that would be the center of the universe you are talking about.. :whistling2:



At at the center of the universe is our flat earth, and I'm at the center of it all. :thumbup:


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

Ima Hack said:


> I was in an office today and saw three of them running under various desks, plugged right in with their PC.
> Up here we call em beaver heaters.


 :laughing::laughing::icon_lol::clap::w00t: lol,lol da best, BEAVER HEATERS !Ain't that the truth?'m on the floor laughing?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> $.30 an hour doesn't seem like a big waste until you look at the numbers I supplies.. but you were too busy making derogatory comments..  :laughing:


Not once have I said they are not wasteful.:no:


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Not once have I said they are not wasteful.:no:


Unless of course you go with this type, only 150 watt.

Notice the name of the heater in the top right,

Tool Under Desk Radiant Heater. :thumbsup:


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