# Horizontal panel mounting in Canada?



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Here in the US we can mount horizontally but have to leave out the top row because the handles will be upside down. NEC 240.81. 

Does Canada have a similar rule?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

VELOCI3 said:


> Here in the US we can mount horizontally but have to leave out the top row because the handles will be upside down. NEC 240.81.
> 
> Does Canada have a similar rule?
> 
> ...


No, our breakers don’t open because of gravity.


----------



## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

We are further from the equator, our gravity is weaker.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

It appears the homeowners in Canada are smarter than the homeowners in the US.
Or maybe they just don't over think things.

The premise behind the "ON must be up" theory is in an emergency someone may not be able to figure out how to turn off the top row of breakers.

I've got an idea, how about in an emergency turn the whole panel off with the Main breaker?

Oh, wait, it's in sideways. Is OFF to the left or to the right?

Like I stated, the Canadians don't over think things and are apparently smarter.

The horizontal panels take a bit of getting use to, but in areas like basements they make sense.

I do like everything being at eye level.

Never installed one, but have worked on a few.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Since we can’t go in the top of a panel, sideways gives us lots of KO’s for wiring coming from above. It can make a difference when doing panel swaps.


----------



## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I don't really care about the "up is on" issue. I just think the panels look fugly sideways. I'm glad we don't do that here.


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

99cents said:


> Since we can’t go in the top of a panel,


I'd like to know more about this.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> Like I stated, the Canadians don't over think things and are apparently smarter.


Finally, the recognition we deserve!


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

oldsparky52 said:


> I'd like to know more about this.


The top area is for service conductors only.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

joe-nwt said:


> Finally, the recognition we deserve!


Apparently. 😐


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

99cents said:


> The top area is for service conductors only.
> View attachment 155926


Thanks, I think I like that.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I think the US NEC restricting direction of handle comes from old Frankenstein knife switch disconnects like on old monster movies and just never has been updated.


----------



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

The panels in England are all side ways. They call them "Domestics Fuse Boxes". The best part is that the doors double as a tool tray.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

99cents said:


> The top area is for service conductors only.


... or the bottom (if you flip it)


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

How do you address the double throw switch with an on = up, off = centre and on = down?










Cheers
John


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Navyguy said:


> How do you address the double throw switch with an on = up, off = centre and on = down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s only for use in gravity free zones.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

I guess this style *have to* be mounted sideways per NEC?


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

u2slow said:


> I guess this style *have to* be mounted sideways per NEC?


Is that a circuit breaker?


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

@oldsparky52 I can't see inside the box, but likely not... the transfer switch posted above reminded me of this style.

EDIT: The jokes on me - I got the whole thing backwards... better get another coffee in me.


----------



## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Navyguy said:


> How do you address the double throw switch with an on = up, off = centre and on = down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But ... it's not a circuit breaker. So, ... it does not apply to that switch.


----------



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

So the rule only applies to circuit breakers? That seems pretty specific to me...

Is there any reasoning to this?

Cheers
John


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

joe-nwt said:


> Finally, the recognition we deserve!


A little, but we're keeping the cup.



Easy said:


> The panels in England are all side ways. They call them "Domestics Fuse Boxes". The best part is that the doors double as a tool tray.
> View attachment 155928


They call them "Consumer Unit."


----------



## achelectricalservice (Apr 20, 2016)

Coppersmith said:


> I don't really care about the "up is on" issue. I just think the panels look fugly sideways. I'm glad we don't do that here.


Their branch wires can't enter in the area where primary are terminated , so with breaker off there are no live parts where branch wiring enters or terminates , I researched a bit after seeing it on Holmes on homes. There is a partition separating our top from the bottom area.


----------



## danielplace1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

99cents said:


> The top area is for service conductors only.
> View attachment 155926


That right there is the most stupid thing ever. Whoever thought up that code was one dumb sob. Only come in the sides. OMG !!

Having a hard time with that. Trying to picture how horrible those installs must look. All because some overzealous clown made up a code.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

danielplace1962 said:


> That right there is the most stupid thing ever. Whoever thought up that code was one dumb sob. Only come in the sides. OMG !!
> 
> Having a hard time with that. Trying to picture how horrible those installs must look. All because some overzealous clown made up a code.


It has been that way since Franklin flew his kite. We don’t even think about it.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

danielplace1962 said:


> That right there is the most stupid thing ever. Whoever thought up that code was one dumb sob. Only come in the sides. OMG !!
> 
> Having a hard time with that. Trying to picture how horrible those installs must look. All because some overzealous clown made up a code.


To cite a certain professor Hackenschmidt "why does it matter what it looks like? it's going to be covered by drywall. The only people who care are other electricians."
And we are allowed to flip the panel any way we want so bottom can be top. I suppose we could hang a panel on a jaunty angle too, if we wanted. Rules say as high as possible but the topmost breaker can't be higher than 5'8".


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Do ya'll mount exterior panels horizontally?
If surface mounted I would assume, no, because you can enter through the back.

Are flush mount panels installed indoors mounted horizontally?
I would think it could go either way, since you could enter through the sides, just have to do a bit of framing work.


----------



## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

wiz1997 said:


> Do ya'll mount exterior panels horizontally?
> If surface mounted I would assume, no, because you can enter through the back.
> 
> Are flush mount panels installed indoors mounted horizontally?
> I would think it could go either way, since you could enter through the sides, just have to do a bit of framing work.


Where I am there aren't a ton of outdoor panels. The weather can be pretty hard on stuff. Even if technically rated for it.
New construction would typically be vertical mount of going flush. I often carve a chunk out of the framing on either side to allow connectors and wire.


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

The 2020 NEC 230.85 now requires an emergency service disconnect to be outside a one or two family dwelling for the fire department to disconnect the service without going inside or jumping a fence.
In new subdivisions around my place we are seeing the meter and a disconnect or a meter and the service panel mounted on the side of the house near the front.
Anything like this up yonder?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> The 2020 NEC 230.85 now requires an emergency service disconnect to be outside a one or two family dwelling for the fire department to disconnect the service without going inside or jumping a fence.
> In new subdivisions around my place we are seeing the meter and a disconnect or a meter and the service panel mounted on the side of the house near the front.
> Anything like this up yonder?


I've seen a few disconnect/meter combos to get around the unfused conductor length to the service panel. Not a big fan of outdoor disconnects where it's -40 for days on end and we rely on a circ pump to keep the incoming water lines from freezing. I hope the CEC/building code people keep that in mind for the future.


----------



## Viggmundir (Sep 13, 2019)

wiz1997 said:


> Do ya'll mount exterior panels horizontally?
> If surface mounted I would assume, no, because you can enter through the back.
> 
> Are flush mount panels installed indoors mounted horizontally?
> I would think it could go either way, since you could enter through the sides, just have to do a bit of framing work.


Exterior panels only mount top up. Most of them are a NEMA 3R rating to shed water, A drip edge over the door doesn't do much good if its at the bottom of the panel. I guess it would be possible if you had say a 4X rated panel it could be horizontal, but I've never seen one rated 4X.



mofos be cray said:


> Where I am there aren't a ton of outdoor panels. The weather can be pretty hard on stuff. Even if technically rated for it.
> New construction would typically be vertical mount of going flush. I often carve a chunk out of the framing on either side to allow connectors and wire.


Most outdoor panels where I am tend to be for agriculture, for aeration bins and grain storage, or cattle yards. Or for parking lot receptacles. 
An outdoor residential panel as the primary for the house? Unheard of here. 
My new construction I 99% of the time do vertical panel surface mounted. Builders will do a shallow 'cabinet' floor to ceiling over the panel with big doors. Makes wiring additions easier later because there is now a chase up and down to other floors in that cabinet space. 



wiz1997 said:


> The 2020 NEC 230.85 now requires an emergency service disconnect to be outside a one or two family dwelling for the fire department to disconnect the service without going inside or jumping a fence.
> In new subdivisions around my place we are seeing the meter and a disconnect or a meter and the service panel mounted on the side of the house near the front.
> Anything like this up yonder?


I have installed meter/disconnect combos, usually either because of unfused conductor length into buildings like Joe mentioned, or yard pole mount to branch out to several buildings on farm yards.
I can understand how it might be easier for the fire department, but how do you not have random people flipping stuff off, either as a prank or maliciously? Couldn't the fire department just as easily yank the outdoor meter?


----------



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Viggmundir said:


> Exterior panels only mount top up. Most of them are a NEMA 3R rating to shed water, A drip edge over the door doesn't do much good if its at the bottom of the panel. I guess it would be possible if you had say a 4X rated panel it could be horizontal, but I've never seen one rated 4X.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen these new installations where the service disconnect or the main panel is out where anyone could walk up and mess with it.
I wonder about someone turning it off and the unsuspecting homeowner goes out to check it and becomes the victim of a home invasion if he left the door open.
Don't believe you would be allowed to lock it but maybe you can.
The reasoning seems to be to make it easier for emergencies.
The fire department doesn't want to mess with pulling a meter, nor jumping a fence and finding a "kill the intruder dog" on the other side.
Another possibility is the fire department has no idea where the panel is located and it takes time to locate it.


----------



## GladMech (Sep 18, 2020)

Viggmundir said:


> Builders will do a shallow 'cabinet' floor to ceiling over the panel with big doors. Makes wiring additions easier later because there is now a chase up and down to other floors in that cabinet space.


Huh. I thought I invented that. I have a cabinet from basement to attic.


----------



## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

In my area there are many outdoor panels and I've never heard from anyone that their power was turned off as a prank or for any evil purpose. I have had homeowners who were concerned it might happen.

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing you could legally put a padlock on your outdoor panel. The fire department carries tools for cutting locks so this would not stop them from disconnecting power.


----------

