# UF in basement



## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Wow. My hands hurt just thinking about that!


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I went on a call to do some work in a basement.
> 1/2 the basement is done in UF !! I've never seen anything like it. Outlets on the cement wall, UF.
> 2 lighting circuits done in UF.
> 12 & 14 mixed up in a 1900 box..... on a 20amp breaker.
> ...



That is done by weekend warrors I am not too suprised what they are done with that and they waste alot of money on that due they think basement is allready wet .,, not always the case.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

It's all nice & neat too. Perfectly flat across the basement ceiling joist. Not one twist or turn in the cable. Looks like he took pride in his work, except where they mixed 12 & 14 in a little octagon box.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Can you just downsize the breaker?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I went on a call to do some work in a basement.
> 1/2 the basement is done in UF !! I've never seen anything like it. Outlets on the cement wall, UF.
> 2 lighting circuits done in UF.
> 12 & 14 mixed up in a 1900 box..... on a 20amp breaker.
> ...


I don't find UF a big deal to work with. There is a trick to stripping the ends for connections. Going to drop to a 15 amp breaker?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

I must learn the trick!


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'll be back later this week, and I will indeed swap in a 15a GFI breaker. They ran a 14 wire for a basement dehumidifier. Not that I'm a fan of GFI's on anything with a compressor, but it's the easiest thing considering 1/2 the circuit is now feeding the basement outlet.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Majewski said:


> I must learn the trick!


Slit the end of the UF on the ground wire, grab the wire with linemen's and pull it free, grab ends of next conductor and pull towards inside of jacket, it tears easily. Cut off stripped jacket, it goes fast once you've done it a few hundred times.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Slit the end of the UF on the ground wire, grab the wire with linemen's and pull it free, grab ends of next conductor and pull towards inside of jacket, it tears easily. Cut off stripped jacket, it goes fast once you've done it a few hundred times.


This what I been doing for a quite a while with modern UF cable it pretty easy but when you get older UF cable it can be little tough but just very lightly score then do the same as above it will peel pretty easy unless it was sunbaked then it will be much toughter.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Since hurricane Sandy, most wiring is being removed in basements. It all depends on the base flood plane elevation. It is marked on the plans of any house in a flood plane area. 

If the basement floor joists are above the base flood plane elevation, but the house is still in a flood zone, I would not take the chance using Romex under the house. If I had to hit an island receptacle from the kitchen counter circuit, I would use UF in the basement. 

I am sure the residential guys know a lot more on what they can get away with. You can have conductors below the BFPE, but they have to be approved for a wet location. 

Insurance companies are paying the bill for a lot of this work. You also have to see what is on their inspection list. Even the power company has specs on how to build elevated platforms for their meters.

I'm sure none of this was your customers intent. 

I agree that today's UF is no worse than yesterday's Romex to strip.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Spark Master said:


> I went on a call to do some work in a basement.
> 1/2 the basement is done in UF !! I've never seen anything like it. Outlets on the cement wall, UF.
> 2 lighting circuits done in UF.
> 12 & 14 mixed up in a 1900 box..... on a 20amp breaker.
> ...


Sometimes, when you look at a mans house, you can tell what materials he got for free :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> Sometimes, when you look at a mans house, you can tell what materials he got for free :laughing:


Yup. Some people will do an extra 4 hours worth of work just so they can use the $30 in material they got for free.

Either that, or he truly didn't know the difference between romex and UF and picked up the wrong stuff off the shelf.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Sometimes, when you look at a mans house, you can tell what materials he got for free :laughing:


Every now and then you can refine this info and figure out where he works!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

cabletie said:


> Since hurricane Sandy, most wiring is being removed in basements. It all depends on the base flood plane elevation. It is marked on the plans of any house in a flood plane area.
> 
> If the basement floor joists are above the base flood plane elevation, but the house is still in a flood zone, I would not take the chance using Romex under the house. If I had to hit an island receptacle from the kitchen counter circuit, I would use UF in the basement.
> 
> ...


I see your point but even if a circuit is wired in UF and has been under flood waters it still needs to be replaced afterwards. UF is not a listed submersible cable nor are the devices it is tied into.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I see your point but even if a circuit is wired in UF and has been under flood waters it still needs to be replaced afterwards. UF is not a listed submersible cable nor are the devices it is tied into.


After Sandy it was left to the EC's here to determine if the cable needed to be replaced. Since romex had the paper which wicked the water up it, it was still wet and most ECs replaced it. But UF would have been fine.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> After Sandy it was left to the EC's here to determine if the cable needed to be replaced. Since romex had the paper which wicked the water up it, it was still wet and most ECs replaced it. But UF would have been fine.


I was long gone from NJ by Sandy so I don't know what was going on up there.

I know more authorities were concerned with saltwater residue corroding the conductors and devices afterwards than just being wetted. I understand your point but there are no paper products inside receptacles or metallic boxes and once they have been under flood water they are in need of replacement in places I have done work.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Slit the end of the UF on the ground wire, grab the wire with linemen's and pull it free, grab ends of next conductor and pull towards inside of jacket, it tears easily. Cut off stripped jacket, it goes fast once you've done it a few hundred times.


That's the way to do it. The only caveat is, don't pull the pliers towards your face. Good way to lose a tooth or two.
Do it Superman style.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Signal1 said:


> That's the way to do it. The only caveat is, don't pull the pliers towards your face. Good way to lose a tooth or two.
> Do it Superman style.


Yeah, you get the sideways rhythm down quickly. Once you've slipped off!


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

I am not sure if this is the case but in Canada if it is ran through any holes in wood it would have to have the 90C rating . Is UF the same as what we call NMWU 

http://www.southwire.ca/en/products/CU-NMWU.htm


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I once wired an entire house with uf due to homeowner request. Ok, then. 

House is directly beachfront and he wanted it and was willing to pay the difference. Now the good part. That house is on Ke-Nui street and sits directly in front of the Banzai Pipeline surf break, across the beach access path from Gerry Lopez's house. And the wiring was done during the winter time. The big hassle was not dealing with uf, it was being distracted by the surf out behind the jobsite and the goings on at the beach. And parking. And it smells like a rock concert all the time there due to massive amounts of pakalolo smoking surf trolls smoking joints at the beach access path on a continuous basis all day long. But otherwise , just another 2 story house wiring job........


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I see your point but even if a circuit is wired in UF and has been under flood waters it still needs to be replaced afterwards. UF is not a listed submersible cable nor are the devices it is tied into.



The devices obviously corrode. But I would imagine if UF was under water for a day or 2, it would be fine. Even if a driving rain, UF gets very wet all the time.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> The devices obviously corrode. But I would imagine if UF was under water for a day or 2, it would be fine. Even if a driving rain, UF gets very wet all the time.


Huge difference between rain water and flood water.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Huge difference between rain water and flood water.


UF sits submerged in pools of water often when it rains between the time it's installed and the time the trench has been inspected and backfilled. The UF may be essentially submerged in water if it is installed within the water table.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> UF sits submerged in pools of water often when it rains between the time it's installed and the time the trench has been inspected and backfilled. The UF may be essentially submerged in water if it is installed within the water table.


Understood, no contest. Still doesn't expose it to corrosive water or a submersible rating.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Is it rated for acid rain


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Understood, no contest. Still doesn't expose it to corrosive water or a submersible rating.


 I'm not really following. What do you mean by submersible rating? What's the difference if it's submersed in 30 years of ground water or 12 hours of floodwater? 

I also don't know anything about corrosive water when it comes to code, what about lampposts at beach houses?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I'm not really following. What do you mean by submersible rating? What's the difference if it's submersed in 30 years of ground water or 12 hours of floodwater?


Submersed in ground water is jacket and conductor jackets not open conductors. 



HackWork said:


> I also don't know anything about corrosive water when it comes to code, what about lampposts at beach houses?


Perfect example, do the posts not rot out and the conductors corrode?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Submersed in ground water is jacket and conductor jackets not open conductors.
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect example, do the posts not rot out and the conductors corrode?


I see what you're saying. But I assume that cutting off the end of the wire and stripping it clean when installing a new device would leave it perfectly fine.

I'm not sure about the posts, but I have always seen them so I know it's compliant and a normal thing to do.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I see what you're saying. But I assume that cutting off the end of the wire and stripping it clean when installing a new device would leave it perfectly fine.
> 
> I'm not sure about the posts, but I have always seen them so I know it's compliant and a normal thing to do.


I've done a good amount of work in houses right on the ocean, had I been the guy to redo the house wiring UF would be a great idea. 

I have seen more than one mechanical room where the EMT is a shell of what it should be and basically conductors just laying in the straps with a rust residue attached.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I've seen EMT like that in a few parking garages that the caulking in the expansion joints wore away and the water sheeted across the ceiling and rusted the crap out of the EMT. It was funny how in some places the EMT was just... gone. Corroded away into dust.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I've seen EMT like that in a few parking garages that the caulking in the expansion joints wore away and the water sheeted across the ceiling and rusted the crap out of the EMT. It was funny how in some places the EMT was just... gone. Corroded away into dust.


Yup, exactly how it is in many of the mechanical rooms I've been in along the beach. Let's not even mention the controls on cooling towers or the aluminum coils that just turn to powder.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Seems silly to me wasting the time and effort running UF in basements because of the possibility of a flood.

A) If we're gonna try to plan for every eventuality then they oughta ban overhead services because they might be damaged by tornados and ice storms.

B) If the concern is that NM would be damaged by water wicking in next to the conductors, the exact same thing is still going to happen with UF wherever the cut ends are below flood level.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Big John said:


> Seems silly to me wasting the time and effort running UF in basements because of the possibility of a flood.
> 
> A) If we're gonna try to plan for every eventuality then they oughta ban overhead services because they might be damaged by tornados and ice storms.
> 
> B) If the concern is that NM would be damaged by water wicking in next to the conductors, the exact same thing is still going to happen with UF wherever the cut ends are below flood level.


John, there is nothing wrong with trying to limit your damages. A lot of people have raised their basement or lower level outlets to 4' or higher because they get flooded. They wire with UF because it doesn't have the wicking issue that NM has. NM is not supposed to be installed below the Design Flood Elevation while UF and other wet location rated wiring can be. 

Just because the overhead line can be blown down, it doesn't mean that people want to have to keep rewiring everything.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

HackWork said:


> NM is not supposed to be installed below the Design Flood Elevation while UF and other wet location rated wiring can be.


 I would need to see manufacturer's documentation or an independent study before I'd accept the idea that cut ends of submerged UF are gonna be any less damaged than cut ends of submerged NM. 

Now if people were having to rewire because the cable jacket of NM was being damaged then I could see UF actually being an improvement. 

But if we're talking about water wicking, I'd be surprised if UF does much to address that.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Big John said:


> I would need to see manufacturer's documentation or an independent study before I'd accept the idea that cut ends of submerged UF are gonna be any less damaged than cut ends of submerged NM.
> 
> Now if people were having to rewire because the cable jacket of NM was being damaged then I could see UF actually being an improvement.
> 
> But if we're talking about water wicking, I'd be surprised if UF does much to address that.


Let me preface this with 'any wire that has been in flood water needs to be replaced'. UF doesn't have paper in the jacket so maybe it won't wick water like NM, but the code says it needs to be replaced. I have been on a few mission trips to flood damaged areas and anything that was below the water level and 1' above was changed out. I understand that at one point they had left this up to contractors in NOLA but that was rescinded afterwards because of abuse of that exception.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It wasn't just NOLA, and it hasn't been rescinded:

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/hurricane_sandy_guidance_11_2012.pdf


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I find it hard to believe UF is not designed to sit in water. Lawn sprinklers, heavy rains, poor grading, trenching not back filled.

and we know much of it is not 18" deep.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I find it hard to believe UF is not designed to sit in water. Lawn sprinklers, heavy rains, poor grading, trenching not back filled.
> 
> and we know much of it is not 18" deep.





MechanicalDVR said:


> Submersed in ground water is jacket and conductor jackets not open conductors.



You seem to be missing the point.


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