# re-identifying the white wire as a hot



## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

A single conductor or in a cable?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> A single conductor or in a cable?


I didn't think it matters, but it's where the white connects to my 2 pole breaker. Apparently the rule is that the white has to be re-identified as hot at the breaker. I knew that this was true, but I thought it wasn't until "08 that they made that change. This county is supposedly operating out of the '05 and are enforcing that rule. I don't have an '05 NEC to check on it though.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

steelersman said:


> I didn't think it matters, but it's where the white connects to my 2 pole breaker. Apparently the rule is that the white has to be re-identified as hot at the breaker. I knew that this was true, but I thought it wasn't until "08 that they made that change. This county is supposedly operating out of the '05 and are enforcing that rule. I don't have an '05 NEC to check on it though.




We have been doing that for many code cycles.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

*200.7*

*(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. *The use of insulation that
is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for
other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or
more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is
permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor, by painting or other effective
means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall
encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than
white, gray, or green.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified
by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous
white stripes or by any other means permitted by
400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment
permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible
cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is
supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an
ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working
on existing systems


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

1999 was the first Code cycle requiring reidentification of white used in switch loops.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

to h*ll with 200.7 , let the diy'er fry.....~CS~


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Every time I turn my light out the breaker blows,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

What do you think the guy did?


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

steelersman said:


> What year code cycle did they start that rule?


Man I hate this about me but here goes. Your term is contradictory. A white wire is an "identified conductor" so to re-identify a white wire you would first have to Unidentify them whic i know is what you really mean. I cannot answer the Question relative to the NEC but the requirment to unidentify a white wire landing on a breaker has existed far longer than the rule to do if for a switch leg. Where a cable serves a 240 volt load the white wires have been required to unidentified as long as I can remember or pre 1980.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> to h*ll with 200.7 , let the diy'er fry.....~CS~


:thumbup:

I understood that one. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mshea said:


> A white wire is an "identified conductor" so to re-identify a white wire you would first have to Unidentify them whic i know is what you really mean.


How do I 'unwhite it'? 




(BTW, the NEC stopped using the term 'identified conductor' a while ago.)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> How do I 'unwhite it'?


I hear PhotoShop works well. :whistling2::laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> How do I 'unwhite it'?


 You put enough juice through a wire you can get the insulation to change your choice of brown or black. :whistling2:

-John


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Every time I turn my light out the breaker blows,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> What do you think the guy did?


just give the switch a flip, just a little more trouble to turn it back on.:laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

That's the last issue I had with a combo inspector in fountain valley california, that was so fricking stupid. His reply even after getting a code book was, you can't re - identify a neutral. Huh? This is for a panel upgrade with an existing 14-2 UF that I taped red for the inspection. I was nice long before I got mean.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

If you can't figure out what a white on a breaker, on a switch, or connected to a hot colour in a j-box means you need to just jump back in the truck and find the way to the house. How much more are they going to dumb things down?


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## EMeis1114 (Mar 5, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> Every time I turn my light out the breaker blows,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> What do you think the guy did?


I bet they used a white traveler for a 3 way then at the other end tied it to a neutral... Doesn't usually work so well. Unless there's FP breakers maybe...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

rdr said:


> If you can't figure out what a white on a breaker, on a switch, or connected to a hot colour in a j-box means you need to just jump back in the truck and find the way to the house. How much more are they going to dumb things down?


I thought you transplanted to Canada? What's with the col*our *and lab*our* (in another thread?


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I thought you transplanted to Canada? What's with the col*our *and lab*our* (in another thread?


Just been in the habit of it. Been here on and off status and no status for years. When in Rome, my man, when in Rome.....


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

EMeis1114 said:


> I bet they used a white traveler for a 3 way then at the other end tied it to a neutral... Doesn't usually work so well. Unless there's FP breakers maybe...


Nahhhhh,

think more brain dead.

single switch, single light

He wired the switch in parallel with the light fixture

Close the switch, the breaker blows, and that was his "off"


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

Just color the wire black and quite your crying. Are you that lazy?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Just color the wire black and quite your crying. Are you that lazy?


 Nah, just resentful.

I'm with _CS, _if someone sees a switch or 2P breaker with a white, and doesn't _immediately_ understand what they're looking at, they shouldn't be doing electrical work.

It's a rule made for the untrained.

-John


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

never the less. It doesnt cost you extra money it makes the inspector happy. Just do it. I understand what you are saying cause I have thought the same thing. Any electrician should know it is not a neutral but its a easy code to follow.


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## rdr (Oct 25, 2009)

rdr said:


> If you can't figure out what a white on a breaker, on a switch, or connected to a hot colour in a j-box means you need to just jump back in the truck and find the way to the house. How much more are they going to dumb things down?





Big John said:


> Nah, just resentful.
> 
> I'm with _CS, _if someone sees a switch or 2P breaker with a white, and doesn't _immediately_ understand what they're looking at, they shouldn't be doing electrical work.
> 
> ...


Pretty much :laughing:





Flytyingyaker said:


> never the less. It doesnt cost you extra money it makes the inspector happy. Just do it. I understand what you are saying cause I have thought the same thing. Any electrician should know it is not a neutral but its a easy code to follow.


Not necessarily if you're using cable.

Some people are stupid. They're trying to make it stupid proof. Simple as that. :no:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Just color the wire black and quite your crying. Are you that lazy?


No actually I'm the opposite of lazy.....the problem is I was in too much of a hurry and simply forgot to wrap some tape around the wire. Now I will have to go back (40 miles) just to correct this. The other part of the problem is that I'm not used to having to do that since it wasn't in the code for the majority of my time in the trade, so it's one of those things that's not ingrained in me.....not sure if you can comprehend that or not.....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Flytyingyaker said:


> ....It doesnt cost you extra money ........



Wanna bet?


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Wanna bet?



A few wraps of tape or some unknown from your sharps maybe. Ooooh big money.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Flytyingyaker said:


> A few wraps of tape or some unknown from your sharps maybe. Ooooh big money.


Every little bit adds up.


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## Flytyingyaker (Jun 9, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Every little bit adds up.


So doesn't all kinds of other stuff that the code makes us do. This is probably the simplest one to follow.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Flytyingyaker said:


> ......This is probably the simplest one to follow.


I think making a proper panel schedule would be easier, but apparently it's too much for most. I typically go into a house and see:

1: K
2: D
3: K
4: F
5: L
6: B
7: Ba
8: Gen
9: Gen
10: Gen
11: Gen
12: Gen
13: Gr
14: O
15: S
16: Gen
17: W
18: A
19: W
20: W


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I think making a proper panel schedule would be easier, but apparently it's too much for most. I typically go into a house and see:
> 
> 1: K
> 2: D
> ...


How good would it have to be before you'd trust it? Could it even be good enough to trust unless you made it up yourself?


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

Flytyingyaker said:


> Just color the wire black and quite your crying. Are you that lazy?


Time is money, and it's a stupid rule. It's just like the MWBC stuff, handle ties and all. WTF, somebody plugs something phucked up into a receptacle and it takes out something else like maybe all the lights.

Next thing you know a committee of dumbazzes will make a law requireing super duper noodles going to everything. We'll have to have a neutral piece of 10 wire in every switch whether we need a neutral for anything or not


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> How good would it have to be before you'd trust it? Could it even be good enough to trust unless you made it up yourself?


I wouldn't trust this:










or this:











But I know I would trust this:










Or this:


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

I wouldn't trust that one, too colorful. I would think maybe the guy that made it, rode this bus to school











And listened to music like this


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joethemechanic said:


> I wouldn't trust that one, too colorful. I would think maybe the guy that made it, rode this bus to school


*
Rode* it? Héll, I _*PhotoShopped*_ it!


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

IHC "Red Diamond" Power, I'll bet it was a slow ride in the hills.

I had a 450 red diamond powered 10 wheel dump truck back in the 80's. Joggers and guys on ten speed bikes used to fly past me on the hills.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

joethemechanic said:


> ]...Next thing you know a committee of dumbazzes will make a law requireing super duper noodles....


 :laughing: Did we give you something else to hate? Merry Christmas.

-John


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