# split plug upgrade to gfi?



## carlyn (Sep 2, 2015)

oh yeah....forgot to mention panel is fed pioneer stab.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

There's no other way. Either pay for the 2 pole GFCI breaker or replace wiring with 12/2.


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## Somewhere_401 (Apr 7, 2014)

This is the suggested way according to the ESA in Ontario.

http://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Flash_Notices/14-02-FL.pdf

Obviously the best way is to replace with 12-2. The GFCI Dbl Pole breakers are certainly expensive, however, if you are working on a Stab-lock panel....:whistling2:


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## carlyn (Sep 2, 2015)

Thx Somewhere, I was thinkin about asking the poco who is the governing authority in my area if they'd be okay with me feeding each plug separately and pigtailing the neutral? but of course I know what they'd say and they don't care about costs at the customer end.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

Somewhere_401 said:


> This is the suggested way according to the ESA in Ontario.
> 
> http://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Flash_Notices/14-02-FL.pdf
> 
> Obviously the best way is to replace with 12-2. The GFCI Dbl Pole breakers are certainly expensive, however, if you are working on a Stab-lock panel....:whistling2:


stab lock in canada are not the same that were dangerous in US


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

carlyn said:


> Thx Somewhere, I was thinkin about asking the poco who is the governing authority in my area if they'd be okay with me feeding each plug separately and pigtailing the neutral? but of course I know what they'd say and they don't care about costs at the customer end.


It's easy to find out who the AHJ is. Jut call up the local building department at city hall. If it's not them, they'll direct you to who is.


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## carlyn (Sep 2, 2015)

oliquir said:


> stab lock in canada are not the same that were dangerous in US


????? what were the problems in the u.s.?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Your inspection authority can't invent code, they only interpret and enforce it. Like has been said, you either run a new #12 or install a two pole GFCI breaker. Schneider loves to make you pay for FPE. I had a job where it was better and cheaper to install an Eaton sub just for the ground fault split receptacle circuits.


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## carlyn (Sep 2, 2015)

480sparky said:


> It's easy to find out who the AHJ is. Jut call up the local building department at city hall. If it's not them, they'll direct you to who is.


You may have misunderstood, I do know who they are in my jurisdiction. I was just suggesting that I'm looking for a more pocket book friendly solution to this problem and they don't always keep the end costs to the customer in mind with their ideas. Looking for other ideas that may suffice.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

oliquir said:


> stab lock in canada are not the same that were dangerous in US


They perfect back-stabbed devices too?..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

carlyn said:


> You may have misunderstood, I do know who they are in my jurisdiction. I was just suggesting that I'm looking for a more pocket book friendly solution to this problem and they don't always keep the end costs to the customer in mind with their ideas. Looking for other ideas that may suffice.



I doubt the AHJ would be willing to spend any time engineering a more cost-effective solution for you. They're there for code enforcement. But at least they can tell you beforehand whether a solution of yours would be acceptable.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Hmmm ... Just thinking ... What about a blankfront at the panel, that feeds the receptacle. Even if you needed 2 of them, heck of alot cheaper than $400 for the breaker.

** Edit** ... was looking a a Cooper blankfront, they're calling it a 2 pole, but I don't think it is !


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

emtnut said:


> Hmmm ... Just thinking ... What about a blankfront at the panel, that feeds the receptacle. Even if you needed 2 of them, heck of alot cheaper than $400 for the breaker.
> 
> ** Edit** ... was looking a a Cooper blankfront, they're calling it a 2 pole, but I don't think it is !


Thats what I was thinking. Put blankfront gfis at the panel and feed out from them to your splits. Not sure if that flies in Canuckistan though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shut off power.
Remove device from box.
Remove box from wall.
Install 2-gang box.
Install two GFCI's in box.
Install 2-gang cover.


You're welcome.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Shut off power.
> Remove device from box.
> Remove box from wall.
> Install 2-gang box.
> ...


Not to code.

You're welcome.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> Not to code.
> 
> You're welcome.


Code reference, please.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> Not to code.
> 
> You're welcome.


Would be in Ontario ... No worries ... You guys will catch up :laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Code reference, please.


A stand alone kitchen counter receptacle still needs to be 20 amp.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

It says split 15s or separate 20s

I think it might be worth a call to the AHJ


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> A stand alone kitchen counter receptacle still needs to be 20 amp.


So the CEC is retroactive? ANY change invokes an upgrade?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> So the CEC is retroactive? ANY change invokes an upgrade?


Not sure what you're asking. It was alternating splits since Franklin flew a kite. Then they allowed 20 amp circuits. Somewhere along the line they removed the requirement for alternating splits.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> Not sure what you're asking. It was alternating splits since Franklin flew a kite. Then they allowed 20 amp circuits. Somewhere along the line they removed the requirement for alternating splits.



Then I'm not sure why you think installing two GFCIs would be a violation.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What we have here is a failure to communicate  .

The receptacles need to be split if they're 15 amp. Can you split a GFCI receptacle with a common neutral?

We are only allowed two splits on a two pole breaker. If he adds a third receptacle, he will have a problem.


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## Elec tricka (Jun 12, 2015)

Would splitting under sink or behind fridge then to separate GFCI's work?Or a 15 amp sub panel .


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

99cents said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate  .
> 
> The receptacles need to be split if they're 15 amp. Can you split a GFCI receptacle with a common neutral?
> 
> We are only allowed two splits on a two pole breaker. If he adds a third receptacle, he will have a problem.


I'd challenge on interpretation.
Code requires a 20A breaker, or 2 15A ... whether they are split or not does not add any safety.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

If the AHJ hasn't seen the Ontario "flash", show it to them. If they're 
reasonable they'll see the logic and follow the precedent. 

See post 4 by Somewhere_401 for the flash link.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> What we have here is a failure to communicate .
> 
> The receptacles need to be split if they're 15 amp. Can you split a GFCI receptacle with a common neutral?
> 
> We are only allowed two splits on a two pole breaker. If he adds a third receptacle, he will have a problem.


Is this one of those 'metric' things that's common in Canada?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Is this one of those 'metric' things that's common in Canada?


Canada? Only the US, Burma and Liberia haven't caught up with the rest of the world.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey 99 cents...

Just a quick question do the CEC still allow split 15's in new constuction or require straght 20 amp circuits in kitchen area ???


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> Hey 99 cents...
> 
> Just a quick question do the CEC still allow split 15's in new constuction or require straght 20 amp circuits in kitchen area ???


Still permitted.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> Canada? Only the US, Burma and Liberia haven't caught up with the rest of the world.



So if there's two circuits on a duplex, they're allowed to be 15a. But if there's only one, it has to be 20?

So no other receptacles on either circuit? If you install 4 duplexes in a kitchen you must either have four 20a circuits or eight 15a circuits?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Can someone explain what a "split" is?

It sounds like it is a duplex receptacle fed by a 3-wire with the receptacle having 2 phases and a neutral connected with the brass colored side screws being isolated. Is that correct?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Can someone explain what a "split" is?
> 
> It sounds like it is a duplex receptacle fed by a 3-wire with the receptacle having 2 phases and a neutral connected with the brass colored side screws being isolated. Is that correct?


Yuh ya got it ....

I will give you coconut smoothie drink for that....


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> So if there's two circuits on a duplex, they're allowed to be 15a. But if there's only one, it has to be 20?
> 
> So no other receptacles on either circuit? If you install 4 duplexes in a kitchen you must either have four 20a circuits or eight 15a circuits?


Not quite. We're allowed a maximum of two kitchen counter receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. If we use three wire splits with a two pole breaker, we are allowed a maximum of two receptacles. Nothing else is permitted on those circuits.

For a stand alone receptacle it can be either 20 amp or a split.

It appears that the province of Ontario has bent the rule in the case of ground fault protection. Each receptacle can be fed with its own hot without the split and a common neutral. Makes sense to me.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> Yuh ya got it ....
> 
> I will give you coconut smoothie drink for that....


With rum  ?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Can someone explain what a "split" is?
> 
> It sounds like it is a duplex receptacle fed by a 3-wire with the receptacle having 2 phases and a neutral connected with the brass colored side screws being isolated. Is that correct?


Yes. Two hots with the bridge removed. Common neutral.

And be aware: Someone is going to slag you for calling them "phases"...


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

99cents said:


> With rum  ?


Sure why not??? :grin:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> Not quite. We're allowed a maximum of two kitchen counter receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. If we use three wire splits with a two pole breaker, we are allowed a maximum of two receptacles. Nothing else is permitted on those circuits.
> 
> For a stand alone receptacle it can be either 20 amp or a split.
> 
> It appears that the province of Ontario has bent the rule in the case of ground fault protection. Each receptacle can be fed with its own hot without the split and a common neutral. Makes sense to me.


So four duplexes require two circuits, five or six duplexes require three circuits......?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

480sparky said:


> So four duplexes require two circuits, five or six duplexes require three circuits......?


With 20 amp, yes.

With splits, two receptacles on two circuits. For a stand alone receptacle, one receptacle on two circuits.

I like splits. They give your more power. The GFCI thing is a PITA though.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

99cents said:


> With 20 amp, yes.
> 
> With splits, two receptacles on two circuits. For a stand alone receptacle, one receptacle on two circuits.
> 
> I like splits. They give your more power. The GFCI thing is a PITA though.


Sounds much more complicated than it needs to be. Far too many If/Thens.

Simply requiring a minimum of two 20a circuits would be much easier to do.
































Oh, wait. We already do that south of the 49th.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The splits used to be great on renovation jobs. You could run new 20 amp circuits for kitchen receptacles and that left you with 15 amp circuits for other things. Now the arc fault legislation has kinda screwed that up.


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