# Union wages



## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

I did this because I see people arguing over who makes what. I went to www.ibew.org and took the averages for each state that wages where available. The web site is available to anyone. These numbers are total compensation paid by the contractor to the employee. So add the wage, annuity, insurance, pension together. Are you making what you are worth? 



In most local union contracts a foreman is someone in charge of three or more journeyman and get paid 10% more than scale. The fourth Foreman on a job has to be a General Foreman and gets 20% of scale. Anything over 8 hours of work a day is 1 1/2 times scale. Saturdays are 1 1/2 times scale. Sundays and Holidays are 2 times scale. The most expensive tool a union member has to provide that I have seen is a socket set up to 3/4" with 3/8" drive. No power tools. Start and finish your 8 hour work day in the same place, meaning if you start at the shop and go to a job-site you have to be back before your 8 hours is up.



 State Wage Annuity Insurance Pension

AL 24.18 0 4.75 3.07
AK 38.02 2.50 8.20 6.65
AZ 24.67 1.40 4.48 2.04
AR 22.81 3.33 5.27 0
CA 41.10 .90 9.70 6.83 
CO 29.17 2.03 5.85 3.65
CT 36.08 4.40 9.01 6.65 
FL 24.97 1.60 4.81 1.37
GA 24.85 .72 4.33 2.89
HI 40.55 4.87 6.00 6.15
ID 27.25 1.50 5.60 3.70
IL 36.94  2.22 7.70 7.51
IN 33.38 2.65 5.78 5.65
IA 29.06 0 5.22 5.02
KS 27.46 0 5.03 4.20
KY 30.75 2.63 6.25 3.25
LA 21.65 1.05 4.63 1.54
ME 27.54 1.12 7.70 4.80
MD 32.30 3.67 5.85 3.72
MA 37.20 3.40 9.75 6.56
MI 31.03 1.82 7.24 6.71
MN 31.95 4.14 7.65 2.77
MS 22.73 0 4.70 3.15
MO 30.47 6.09 4.97 0
NE 28.28 3.90 4.98 1.72
NV 37.52 4.27 7.68 2.50
NH 26.75 2.25 7.70 4.50
NJ 48.93 5.38 12.23 7.34
NM 29.90 3.50 4.70 0
NY 34.47 3.23 9.73 6.33
NC 23.35 .25 4.90 2.12
ND 30.74 3.43 4.48 0
OH 30.38 2.14 6.43 5.68
OK 26.29 2.43 4.70 1.35
OR 35.68 3.89 8.26 3.29
PA 32.00 4.56 8.38 3.00
SC 23.79 0 5.23 3.08
SD 24.69 3.00 4.93 0
TN 24.57 0 5.31 3.57
TX 22.63 2.17 4.65 0
UT 28.59 1.50 5.50 1.88
VT 24.28 0 7.70 2.43
VA 24.05 .5 4.50 2.20
WA 35.76 3.49 7.69 4.05
WV 29.48 0 6.57 6.38
WI 30.77 5.86 9.26 1.38
WY 25.22 2.50 5.50 3.06


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

You can add child labor laws to things the union helped to push.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Wow. 
I just called 995 to see when I can test out to sign the book!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Do they give the average hours worked in 52 weeks on that chart. For the record I am IBEW and make more than scale.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

How does vacation work in the hood?
Seriously just curious. 

Is it by the contractor?


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## Rocinante (Apr 19, 2011)

Yay!! Jersey wages!! :thumbsup:

Boo Jersey taxes and COL.  :thumbdown:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Do they give the average hours worked in 52 weeks on that chart. For the record I am IBEW and make more than scale.


....are you a forman?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

well, I gotta believe www.ibew.org is going to be unbiased. Are there any fees the electrician has to pay out of his own pocket?
I also would like to know the average hour worked per year by the average electrician.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

I was always under the impression my wage determined my worth to a company not how many hours they work me. But my wife says I also have a high opinoin of myself.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

OK, what are that average annual salary's. Oh and don't forget those other fees we were asking about.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> OK, what are that average annual salary's. Oh and don't forget those other fees we were asking about.


Every here act like the IBEW electricians all sit out of work all the time.
Lets talk about that for a second. Unemployment is high in some places. My local is rebounding, but slowly. There's roughly 600 out of work BUT there's still 3000+ working. That's a pretty good percentage. I myself have worked all year. I had one layoff for about 6 weeks and went out of state for work during that time.
My rate is almost $49 per hour on the check. And the only "fees" outta my pocket are my quartely dues. I pay $103 once a quarter.

As a lowly wage earner, do you think I am getting my $103 worth??? :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I wasn't knocking it. Just asking. Settle down.
Although to me 600 out of 3600 seems like alot if I was trying to raise a family.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

Average local dues range from 2-5% most I have worked in are in the middle of that. 

When comes to working it comes down to your value in the company. How much knowledge you have can keep you busy in slow months running service work. I have been in the trade for 13 years and the only times I did not work was when I did not want to. To cold up north so I would go south and opposite north for the south. Recently my wife had a lot of medical problems so I took a lot of time away from worrying about work. 

Not all locals are the same, some contractors go after everything and so they have a lot of work. Some are comfortable where they are, which causes down time.

Actual averages are something I can not find. 

As far as bias on the website, it is accurate. As a union member we can go to any local and work, if they posted wrong numbers there would be a problem.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I wasn't knocking it. Just asking. Settle down.
> Although to me 600 out of 3600 seems like alot if I was trying to raise a family.


Sure it is a lot. But we had full employment for years and years. Out of that 600, there's probably close to a hundred working on the road, another 100 that might have something else going on until work picks up, and the stiffs that can't stay employed even when work was plentiful.

The guys I feel for are the ones who stayed at one employer, 10, 15 years and then found themselves laid off. Good workers and electricians who don't have enough contacts to self solicit and are down the list waiting for the call.

BUT there is work for those who are willing to go find it.

As to your percentage point, you think there is less unemployment (percentage wise) among open shop electricians?


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

There are no salaries through the union. If you want more than the set wage you would job jump to pick up overtime. But that would lead to working for many contractors and could bite you in the end. You could end up on unemployement.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

sbuck22 said:


> There are no salaries through the union. If you want more than the set wage you would job jump to pick up overtime. But that would lead to working for many contractors and could bite you in the end. You could end up on unemployement.


Plenty of guys make more then the rate.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

walkerj said:


> Wow.
> I just called 995 to see when I can test out to sign the book!


Dude.. I told you...:thumbsup:


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

cl219um said:


> Dude.. I told you...:thumbsup:


I was being facetious.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

sbuck22 said:


> There are no salaries through the union. If you want more than the set wage you would job jump to pick up overtime. But that would lead to working for many contractors and could bite you in the end. You could end up on unemployement.


And yes, people do move up in the union. Company I work, estimators, pm's... All started as apprentices, or organized into. It's always what you make of it. Union rates are base rates. Minimums. Not end of what you want to do with yourself.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

cl219um said:


> And yes, people do move up in the union. Company I work, estimators, pm's... All started as apprentices, or organized into. It's always what you make of it. Union rates are base rates. Minimums. Not end of what you want to do with yourself.


I have seen it happen many times, sometimes through the local and sometimes they are hired on salary.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

slickvic277 said:


> Plenty of guys make more then the rate.


I never said they don't. In the OP I showed foreman and GF. But these are still just minimum wages. Nothing any union member should not know. 

The reason for this was a gauge of wages. Everyone likes to talk about, "I make than union.". Or the opposite way. But no one really knows the wages.

These are averages, if you want to know what your area actually is check the website.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

sbuck22 said:


> I did this because I see people arguing over who makes what. I went to www.ibew.org and took the averages for each state that wages where available. The web site is available to anyone. These numbers are total compensation paid by the contractor to the employee. So add the wage, annuity, insurance, pension together. Are you making what you are worth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those aren't NYC's numbers...

Steve from NYC


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, that's just great. Now we can't even believe the website #'s. I just can't believe they would lie. Union management lie, no way.


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

Read the OP. Averages on what could be found on the IBEWs website. LU3 does not post but I did get their numbers from davis bacon website.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

cl219um said:


> And yes, people do move up in the union. Company I work, estimators, pm's... All started as apprentices, or organized into. It's always what you make of it. Union rates are base rates. Minimums. Not end of what you want to do with yourself.


Absolutely correct. Over the years I have been a foreman, Foreman, Sub-Foreman, General Foreman and am now a Project Manager. Your "A" Rate is your minimum. From there the deal is yours to make. 

In NYC a Foreman's min is $3.75, avg is $5...a General Foreman makes his own deal...avg minimum is $10 over...but again, it depends on the level of GF you are. I averaged $16 over for most of my jobs...but I also ran jobs upwards of $3M with 40-60 men. Then becoming a PM changes everything...no more furlough, but get vacation...sick days, etc...all that gets factored in when making your "deal". 

The problems many of us from the field face moving into the office are many...

1. politics of a different sort
2. an office is exactly that...an OFFICE..not a construction site.
3. many make the "wrong" deal...they negotiate based on their HOURLY instead of their PACKAGE. This is a critical mistake.
4. Office personnel in many locals are a different Division...with different benefits etc...that many Inside Wiremen have no idea about unless they're active and seek to figure out.
5. the dynamics of working with "suits" every day is difficult for many of us from the field to handle. There's a huge turn around of guys who just don't like it.
6. most of the time when you enter the office, you now become salary...no more OT.
7. any owner or PM will tell you this...it's a LOT harder than we in the field EVER thought. Example...when I requisitioned 6000 light fixtures for my last project...I had NO IDEA what went into filling up those 3 18 wheeler's with fixtures! NOW...however...I have first hand experience with the ridiculous amount of time spent in EXCEL putting together matrix's for my current project. Insane...
8. the relationships with field personnel and office personnel aren't always the best. There's a line, that' not invisible...nor opaque...it's a 6" tall brick wall that often divides the white collars from the blue collars...

There's more...but it's late...LOL

Just my $.02..

Steve from NYC


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

sbuck22 said:


> Read the OP. Averages on what could be found on the IBEWs website. LU3 does not post but I did get their numbers from davis bacon website.


Nicely done! I wouldn't have thought of that!

We make $51/hr and the total package is about $100/hr. This is base Inside Wireman scale...

And we're NOT the highest paid local in the US. Can anyone guess who is...?

:cool2:

Steve from NYC


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

walkerj said:


> How does vacation work in the hood?
> Seriously just curious.
> 
> Is it by the contractor?


There is no vacation time ( there are vacation funds ). Basically, you don't work, you don't get paid.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> well, I gotta believe www.ibew.org is going to be unbiased. Are there any fees the electrician has to pay out of his own pocket?
> I also would like to know the average hour worked per year by the average electrician.


Typically the local gets a percentage - like 2% of your gross, and your annual dues to the international is around $300.00


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Yup...same with us EE...no vacation...but there IS a vacation fund...The only way an Inside Wireman gets vacation is if he/she moves into the office. Then you go by the book...I'm used to Furlough...10-12 weeks a year...this year I got 4 paid weeks vacation...VERY hard to get used to...lol.

Steve from NYC


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Well, that's just great. Now we can't even believe the website #'s. I just can't believe they would lie. Union management lie, no way.


The web site has actual #s. But not all locals post on the site. To many people know what their own local makes for "management" to lie.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

360max said:


> ....are you a forman?


Nope


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> And we're NOT the highest paid local in the US. Can anyone guess who is...?
> Steve from NYC


San Fran?


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

eejack said:


> There is no vacation time ( there are vacation funds ). Basically, you don't work, you don't get paid.


That sucks


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

local134gt said:


> San Fran?


BAM! You win a cookie!

I was just out in your neck of the woods teaching with Harry O. 

You know you guys just lost one of the most respected men in the IBEW when Kevin Lynch retired. He's a friend of mine and has been a mentor to me over the years. 

I dont know how the next guy is going to do but i wish him a world of luck. 

For all you guys who may not know...Chicago Local 134 has the flagship Apprentice Training Facility in the United States. Ive visited many times and we are basing our new training facility in NYC on their model. Simply incredible!

Steve from NYC


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

icefalkon said:


> BAM! You win a cookie!
> 
> I was just out in your neck of the woods teaching with Harry O.
> 
> ...


We are very lucky to have Harry as an instructor at the school. 
Just wish I had realized the importance of the night classes sooner, can't beat it at $50 per class including books and software


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## Mr. Coulomb (Sep 10, 2012)

local134gt said:


> We are very lucky to have Harry as an instructor at the school.
> Just wish I had realized the importance of the night classes sooner, can't beat it at $50 per class including books and software


Agreed. Harry is great. I'll be taking advantage of those night classes myself, soon. Also, the tie-in with the City Colleges is great. Do you have any input on the INTM degree from IIT that the apprenticeship associates leads into?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> There is no vacation time ( there are vacation funds ). Basically, you don't work, you don't get paid.


My guys get vacation, depending on how long they have worked for me, 1-3 weeks a year and all government holidays. Sick leave when approved.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't know why people say that there's no vacation time.
The answer should be, there's no vacation time _in the contract_.
As an apprentice I had paid holidays and a paid week off.

Just like in the open shop world, it varies from company to company.
I just started with a new employer. The foreman get 2 weeks paid.

The last EC I was with I was there for almost a year. They had a lot of long time guys working for them. There was two foreman who were there for close to 30 years. Those were the only two i knew of that had any paid time off. Some of the other foreman were a little bent out of shape about it. :laughing:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I don't know why people say that there's no vacation time.
> The answer should be, there's no vacation time _in the contract_.
> As an apprentice I had paid holidays and a paid week off.
> 
> ...


Well it depends on the Local and the contract with NECA. All apprentices get vacations if they're indentured. As for Journeymen...it depends on how your local is laid out. We have a furlough system in place which allows 6 month work tickets to be enabled. Because of that, all Basic Workforce are required to be "laid off" from their contractor for X amount of time determined by the amount of men unemployed. During that time you collect unemployment as well as can draw from your "funds" to make ends meet. 

I know a few locals that still have vacation time determined by time in the union. With my 26yrs, I get 4 weeks paid...but if I say screw it...I don't like being a Project Manager any longer and go back out as a General Foreman I get slotted back into the furlough program and have to do 12 weeks out of work.

Steve from NYC


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I prefer to not get vacation time. That way when i want off, I just take off. They ain't paying so it's good for me. I just decided i have some stuff to do this week, so i will be taking a nooner the rest of the week.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I prefer to not get vacation time. That way when i want off, I just take off. They ain't paying so it's good for me. I just decided i have some stuff to do this week, so i will be taking a nooner the rest of the week.


That is a pretty ****ty thing to do to the contractor. 

I call that being a sloth.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

This is possibly the most informative non-combative post ever regarding union employment. Thank you to all that have stayed civil and hopefully I have not jinx the thread.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> This is possibly the most informative non-combative post ever regarding union employment. Thank you to all that have stayed civil and hopefully I have not jinx the thread.


I hope I fit into your criteria. 
I am a smart ass but I do respect every mans decision to pick either way. 

I know guys on both sides of the fence and we are all trying to support our families.

I think that if it weren't for how I was raised or maybe a different state or city I would be on the other side.


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## local134gt (Dec 24, 2008)

Mr. Coulomb said:


> Agreed. Harry is great. I'll be taking advantage of those night classes myself, soon. Also, the tie-in with the City Colleges is great. Do you have any input on the INTM degree from IIT that the apprenticeship associates leads into?


I'm still working on the AAS, the City Colleges haven't been so convenient for me. Long story, but I can't wait till I'm done with them!


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

walkerj said:


> That is a pretty ****ty thing to do to the contractor.
> 
> I call that being a sloth.


I earn my keep. I wouldn't talk about sloth. I've seen your hill billy brothers up here slothing around trying to make a living.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> I earn my keep. I wouldn't talk about sloth. I've seen your hill billy brothers up here slothing around trying to make a living.


There aren't many hills in south LA!

And I KNOW about 50% of the 'workforce' down hear are absolute lazy POSs. 

Why do you think they are up by you working?

The other SELA guys will back me up on this.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

walkerj said:


> There aren't many hills in south LA!
> 
> And I KNOW about 50% of the 'workforce' down hear are absolute lazy POSs.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Other than knowing that most of you guys down there move like your wearing concrete shoes. The only other thing i know, is that that queerr crazy coot on swamp loggers likes to wear his girls undies.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Loose Neutral said:


> Agreed. Other than knowing that most of you guys down there move like your wearing concrete shoes. The only other thing i know, is that that queerr crazy coot on swamp loggers likes to wear his girls undies.


I do more during 9AM break than you do all day:whistling:

TV shows about LA do nothing but find the most uneducated people and then encourage them to act like ftards.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I assure you there is no sloth in me. I would be will to bet that there is an equal number or lazy people on both end. But I can easily get rid of mine. No union laws to worry about. This hill billy you speak of is from SELA then he is looking for work in the wrong state because there is plenty here. By the way the panties are just more cooler in this summer southern heat. Come spend a week with me in the southern humid attics and you would be stealing you wife panties also. Lol


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL ok...um...wow...this took a turn to the strange without stopping at Go...lol

Steve from NYC


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Theriot said:


> I assure you there is no sloth in me. I would be will to bet that there is an equal number or lazy people on both end. But I can easily get rid of mine. No union laws to worry about. This hill billy you speak of is from SELA then he is looking for work in the wrong state because there is plenty here. By the way the panties are just more cooler in this summer southern heat. Come spend a week with me in the southern humid attics and you would be stealing you wife panties also. Lol


I'm with you except for the panties part.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Theriot said:


> I assure you there is no sloth in me. I would be will to bet that there is an equal number or lazy people on both end. But I can easily get rid of mine. No union laws to worry about. This hill billy you speak of is from SELA then he is looking for work in the wrong state because there is plenty here. By the way the panties are just more cooler in this summer southern heat. Come spend a week with me in the southern humid attics and you would be stealing you wife panties also. Lol


Fact southerners move slower. That's how we beat your asses back down south. My ol ladys undies won't fit, i tried.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Theriot said:


> I assure you there is no sloth in me. I would be will to bet that there is an equal number or lazy people on both end. But I can easily get rid of mine. No union laws to worry about. This hill billy you speak of is from SELA then he is looking for work in the wrong state because there is plenty here. By the way the panties are just more cooler in this summer southern heat. Come spend a week with me in the southern humid attics and you would be stealing you wife panties also. Lol


More cooler what an idiot.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I've said it in other posts...there's good and bad whether you're organized or uninitiated. There's no...I'm better or he's better...IF you take pride in your trade and you are continually trying to better yourself. There are slackers on both sides of the fence...and Theriot...believe me...the slackers have a way of finding their way back to the hall eventually if they don't get with the program. These days there is little room for unproductive manpower. It's the nature of the game nowadays. There was a lot more "a grand a week for hide and seek" in the 90's then there is now...and no matter where you work...no matter if you're union or non union...there are guys who simply are not as good as you are...or want them to be. 

You know the single biggest mistake new supervision makes? Expecting your crew to perform as YOU would perform. No joke...and it happens ALL OVER. If you're a hustler...and decide ok...it's time I became a foreman...The number one cause of stress is because the Foreman is judging the men according to how he PERSONALLY would be if he was the installer. Greenhorn Foremen have to learn that every person is different, and 

I used to tell my Straw's (sub foremen) all the time that they need to go by the NECA cost book ...not just..."oh I know it will only take me this long to do something"...because...there ARE slackers...and guys who have been out of work for a long time who need to readjust, and guys who just plain aren't very good at electrical work that will work for you...or alongside you...

But nowhere in this post is there a reason to wear ladies underwear...LOL

Steve from NYC


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

Hey walker headed to the death valley Saturday for the game. It's going to be my two boys first Tiger game. They are excited and haven't stopped asking questions about it all week. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Theriot said:


> Hey walker headed to the death valley Saturday for the game. It's going to be my two boys first Tiger game. They are excited and haven't stopped asking questions about it all week. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread.


Holler at me


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

I worked with a guy from Louisiana back in the 80's in Montana...he had **** Dog tattoo'd on his forearms...any of you guys from down there know of him?

Steve from NYC


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

icefalkon said:


> I worked with a guy from Louisiana back in the 80's in Montana...he had **** Dog tattoo'd on his forearms...any of you guys from down there know of him?
> 
> Steve from NYC


That's describes half the girls I dated in high school. A couple might have passed as guys. Lol


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

theriot said:


> that's describes half the girls i dated in high school. A couple might have passed as guys. Lol


lmao!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> This is possibly the most informative non-combative post ever regarding union employment. Thank you to all that have stayed civil and hopefully I have not jinx the thread.


F YOU:laughing::no::no::no:


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

brian john said:


> F YOU:laughing::no::no::no:


That's it...gloves are off now!  LOL

Steve from NYC


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN:furious:


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Every here act like the IBEW electricians all sit out of work all the time.
> Lets talk about that for a second. Unemployment is high in some places. My local is rebounding, but slowly. There's roughly 600 out of work BUT there's still 3000+ working. That's a pretty good percentage. I myself have worked all year. I had one layoff for about 6 weeks and went out of state for work during that time.
> My rate is almost $49 per hour on the check. And the only "fees" outta my pocket are my quartely dues. I pay $103 once a quarter.
> 
> As a lowly wage earner, do you think I am getting my $103 worth??? :laughing:


What about working dues.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

walkerj said:


> That sucks


The reason for it is simple, who is responsible to pay me for my vacation?

I don't work for one contractor - I might work for 5 or 6 in a year.

There are some shops that pay vacation to encourage their workers to exhibit loyalty to the shop, or as a reward, but personally I am glad I don't have it. I want off when I want off and I don't want to be beholden to anyone when or how I do that.

That is one of the quirks of the trade - pay me for when I work.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> My guys get vacation, depending on how long they have worked for me, 1-3 weeks a year and all government holidays. Sick leave when approved.


A merit based union shop.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> A merit based union shop.


Their sick leave is based on if you are really sick. Miss a day here a day there, no pay, miss a few weeks due to a real illness I'll cover you, we have covered employees up to 3 months.

There vacation is strictly time in service to the company, why shouldn't a guy with 25 years employment get 3 weeks paid if he wants 4, he can and has done that? A guy with one year gets 1 week paid.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

brian john said:


> ... why shouldn't a guy with 25 years employment get 3 weeks paid if he want 4 he can and has donut that?


...donut

Wot? :blink:


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

mdfriday said:


> What about working dues.


4.5% deducted directly from my check.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> There vacation is *strictly time in service to the company*, why shouldn't a guy with 25 years employment get 3 weeks paid if he want 4 he can and has donut that? A guy with one year gets 1 week paid.


Exactly. Merit based union shop.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...donut
> 
> Wot? :blink:


Auto correct DONE


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> Exactly. Merit based union shop.


And you see a problem with that? The options would be drop all paid vacations as there is no way a one year employees would get 3 weeks?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> there is no way a one year employees would get 3 weeks?


They might at a merit shop.

In 2007, when I moved from one company to another part of my deal was keeping 3 weeks vacation. 

My first day at the new job was in July and by September I had already taken off two weeks paid.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Yup, it's not unheard of...actually I think Brian's pretty generous if you think about it. Everyone in supervision makes their own deal...whether it's vacation time, expenses, etc...but for a contractor to cover employees who have a genuine illness...that's pretty damn upstanding Brian. Bravo.

Steve from NYC


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> And you see a problem with that? The options would be drop all paid vacations as there is no way a one year employees would get 3 weeks?


I have no problem with anything, I just like clarity. When you say your union shop etc. etc. what you really mean is your merit shop with union workers etc. etc.

I now understand you do not see the distinction whereas I do.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

eejack said:


> I have no problem with anything, I just like clarity. When you say your union shop etc. etc. what you really mean is your merit shop with union workers etc. etc.
> 
> I now understand you do not see the distinction whereas I do.


No I don't se the distinction, but thanks for the insight it would be terrible to be branded a merit shop, we have canceled all paid vacations starting Oct 1, 2012. I'll be able to buy a new Cadillac with the savings.

I think a better description would be time based. Because a f-up would not be here long enough to merit my concern if he got a vacation or not.


I do know SOME union members have a problem with this as they feel it may result in what I call good employees and they call "kowtowing to the man". Just seeing what camp you fall into.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

brian john said:


> No I don't se the distinction, but thanks for the insight it would be terrible to be branded a merit shop, we have canceled all paid vacations starting Oct 1, 2012. I'll be able to buy a new *Cadillac* with the savings.
> 
> 
> Brian, if you are going this far you do not need to buy a Cadillac. Instead choose a much better vehicle such as a Lexus or BMW.:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> brian john said:
> 
> 
> > No I don't se the distinction, but thanks for the insight it would be terrible to be branded a merit shop, we have canceled all paid vacations starting Oct 1, 2012. I'll be able to buy a new *Cadillac* with the savings.
> ...


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

eejack said:


> I have no problem with anything, I just like clarity. When you say your union shop etc. etc. what you really mean is your merit shop with union workers etc. etc.
> 
> I now understand you do not see the distinction whereas I do.


You are twisting it around. The union is there to uphold labor laws and make sure members are treated fairly. If a contractor wants to go above and beyond what the contract says is fair, then you shouldn't be trying to give him negative labels or tting to says his shop isn't "union"


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## sbuck22 (Jun 14, 2012)

eejack said:


> I have no problem with anything, I just like clarity. When you say your union shop etc. etc. what you really mean is your merit shop with union workers etc. etc.
> 
> I now understand you do not see the distinction whereas I do.





brian john said:


> No I don't se the distinction, but thanks for the insight it would be terrible to be branded a merit shop, we have canceled all paid vacations starting Oct 1, 2012. I'll be able to buy a new Cadillac with the savings.
> 
> I think a better description would be time based. Because a f-up would not be here long enough to merit my concern if he got a vacation or not. I do know SOME union members have a problem with this as they feel it may result in what I call good employees and they call "kowtowing to the man". Just seeing what camp you fall into.


I think merit shop and union are becoming "four letter" words. Brian John, are you saying your shop guys are salary or through the hall. I have seen many signatory shops with estimators and PM's on salary. These people are usually union members but hired outside of the contract. Nothing wrong with it as far as I am concerned. Also as far as I am concerned nothing wrong with paying your people more than contract wages. I give you big kudos for recognizing your the value of your people. Not to often does a signatory contractor work with the give and take. Usually just a lot of take on either side.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Again sbuck22 you are the voice of reason. Thank you for the wisdom you have given to this board regarding union employment.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

brian john said:


> My guys get vacation, depending on how long they have worked for me, 1-3 weeks a year and all government holidays. Sick leave when approved.


I offer the same as Brian. Paid vacation and holidays above the contract. Also give out bonuses and Christmas bonus.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sbuck22 said:


> I think merit shop and union are becoming "four letter" words. Brian John, are you saying your shop guys are salary or through the hall. I have seen many signatory shops with estimators and PM's on salary.


All my electricians are paid union scale or above scale. My full time secretaries are paid scale as well. The regular full time electricians have trucks to take home (the majority live 60 miles or more away) make above scale, vacations, bonuses and as noted sick leave. Apprentices are treated fairly, JWs are told to make it convenient for the apprentices to get to work picking them up to minimizes their driving, and parking fees, they get a vacation and bonuses as well. 

And if anybody has a problem with that they can kiss my tushie.

When I was working for others I had a few very fine employers and quite a few PIA's I swore I would always treat my employees like I wanted to or had wished to be treated. I stuck to my word.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

brian john said:


> All my electricians are paid union scale or above scale. My full time secretaries are paid scale as well. The regular full time electricians have trucks to take home (the majority live 60 miles or more away) make above scale, vacations, bonuses and as noted sick leave. Apprentices are treated fairly, JWs are told to make it convenient for the apprentices to get to work picking them up to minimizes their driving, and parking fees, they get a vacation and bonuses as well.
> 
> And if anybody has a problem with that they can kiss my tushie.
> 
> When I was working for others I had a few very fine employers and quite a few PIA's I swore I would always treat my employees like I wanted to or had wished to be treated. I stuck to my word.


We tend to think alike regarding employees. I want to be known for the best company to work for. If it cost me a few bucks, so be it.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

eejack said:


> I have no problem with anything, I just like clarity. When you say your union shop etc. etc. what you really mean is your merit shop with union workers etc. etc.
> 
> I now understand you do not see the distinction whereas I do.


This post sounds like the typical IBEW "brotha" diatribe. No wonder were rapidly lo9sing market share EVRYWHERE. Well, except here, but then again we think out side the 19th century box.
Nothing wrong with a signatory offering his tenured guys paid vacation dude.
Let me guess, this makes me a "worm"............


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> This post sounds like the typical IBEW "brotha" diatribe. No wonder were rapidly lo9sing market share EVRYWHERE. Well, except here, but then again we think out side the 19th century box.
> Nothing wrong with a signatory offering his tenured guys paid vacation dude.
> Let me guess, this makes me a "worm"............


 
slickvic, it is a shame that their are members still so encrusted to the old ways until death. The BROTHERHOOD can and could be a driving force for those that love and desire a place in this trade but, how can new members and new signatory contractors compete with this type of BS. There are still so many members out there that believe their contractors are the enemy and treat them as such.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> slickvic, it is a shame that their are members still so encrusted to the old ways until death. The BROTHERHOOD can and could be a driving force for those that love and desire a place in this trade but, how can new members and new signatory contractors compete with this type of BS. There are still so many members out there that believe their contractors are the enemy and treat them as such.


Well said slick...I deal with this every night I teach journeyman classes. Some people are so stuck in archaic thinking that the contractor is the enemy. That is NOT the way we are going to succeed. What I have noticed teaching around the country is how certain locations have better and worse relationships with NECA. While the contractor sits across the table from us during contract negotiations, for the other 50 weeks of the year it is a partnership. We need to ensure that supervision brings the job in...in the black not the red. We need to make sure that we minimize waste, maximize production, and run a tight ship. 

I cannot reiterate this enough...THIS IS NOT THE 70's ANYMORE! If we as a Brotherhood are to succeed we need to understand that WE cost money, and the only way a contractor stays in business is if we make him MORE money than we COST. 

However...getting that across is like pulling teeth at times...

Steve from NYC


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

walkerj said:


> I was being facetious.


i think you spelt douche wrong. hard to tell though, for i am on a computer and cant read facial expressions on it the same way as talking face to face. not sure that you would be a good candidate for a local with a condascending attitude bashing others anyway. hang in there kid. right where you are at and let it all depend on one man. sounds like a brotherhood is not for you.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

cl219um said:


> i think you spelt douche wrong. hard to tell though, for i am on a computer and cant read facial expressions on it the same way as talking face to face.


 
You're funny, you're one of them and I don't need to be on a job site to see it. "I need to drag up if the over time doesn't start quick, but let be call the hall first cause we are only getting a 15 minute break in the morning and the contractor is pissed because we are taking a 1/2 hour" "F89k this contractor-slow it down now".


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

rlc3854 said:


> You're funny, you're one of them and I don't need to be on a job site to see it. "I need to drag up if the over time doesn't start quick, but let be call the hall first cause we are only getting a 15 minute break in the morning and the contractor is pissed because we are taking a 1/2 hour" "F89k this contractor-slow it down now".


 i am not sure where you are coming from. slow down. relax. and punctuate. not sure what your post says. side of me likes it, side of me confused.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> You are twisting it around. The union is there to uphold labor laws and make sure members are treated fairly. If a contractor wants to go above and beyond what the contract says is fair, then you shouldn't be trying to give him negative labels or tting to says his shop isn't "union"


I never said anything negative. I just said that brian and myself see things differently.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

slickvic277 said:


> This post sounds like the typical IBEW "brotha" diatribe. No wonder were rapidly lo9sing market share EVRYWHERE. Well, except here, but then again we think out side the 19th century box.
> Nothing wrong with a signatory offering his tenured guys paid vacation dude.
> Let me guess, this makes me a "worm"............


Sorry slickvic, all I said was I see things differently than brian. If you feel like a worm, that is on you, not on me.

And why is everyone so touchy about it. All I said was merit based union shop and people think I am calling them names and insulting their lifestyles, freaking out about how they run their businesses, canceling vacations. Sweet baby back ribs ... when a fellow cannot even put down on pixels a couple of words together without worrying about other folks needing medical attention.

It is like the monty python skit...


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

rlc3854 said:


> You're funny, you're one of them and I don't need to be on a job site to see it. "I need to drag up if the over time doesn't start quick, but let be call the hall first cause we are only getting a 15 minute break in the morning and the contractor is pissed because we are taking a 1/2 hour" "F89k this contractor-slow it down now".


 you are pretty wrong.. i have never drug a job. i take a call, and i work it. i have a game face that may not show on a computer. you think you know me? keep guessing. i am like friggin chuck norris of electrical. just like to blow off steam and have fun after. i could have a center of back mullet for all you know. ( buisness up front, party in the back). i dont but that would be awesome.:jester:


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

walkerj said:


> There aren't many hills in south LA!
> 
> And I KNOW about 50% of the 'workforce' down hear are absolute lazy POSs.
> 
> ...


 pretty neat how high your opinion is on your community.:thumbsup: i did notice the opinion of yourself puts you in, well, basically the 51st percentile. yet you are still a member af the 2%er. not sure if you know whats been going on in new york because the republican based news you are accustomed to had virtually no coverage of all the events that have taken place. just thought you might want to check out occupy wall street and see why so many americans must stand up for their right to organize and stand up for themselves.check it out for yourself. do it on an un-biased station though.there is still hope.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

cl219um said:


> you are pretty wrong.. i have never drug a job. i take a call, and i work it. i have a game face that may not show on a computer. you think you know me? keep guessing. i am like friggin chuck norris of electrical. just like to blow off steam and have fun after. i could have a center of back mullet for all you know. ( buisness up front, party in the back). i dont but that would be awesome.:jester:


You come across as a blowhard slacker.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

cl219um said:


> i think you spelt douche wrong. hard to tell though, for i am on a computer and cant read facial expressions on it the same way as talking face to face. not sure that you would be a good candidate for a local with a condascending attitude bashing others anyway. hang in there kid. right where you are at and let it all depend on one man. sounds like a brotherhood is not for you.


I'm a kid yet you can't form a sentence with properly spelled words.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

walkerj said:


> I'm a kid yet you can't form a sentence with properly spelled words.


 good one.


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