# 200 AMP upgrade



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Most importantly....


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

really nice job.. looks good to do that little "extra" and paint the plywood :thumbsup:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah , real clean job. Looks like you go the extra mile for your customers. I used to use pvc for the riser, but i stopped doing it because they seem to sag.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Is that the meter/main you were asking about the other day with finding more lugs?

Nice job, by the way. Good work with the LB's.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Is that the meter/main you were asking about the other day with finding more lugs?
> 
> Nice job, by the way. Good work with the LB's.


Yup, that's the one. The LB's took some time to figure out and coordinate with the panels and floor joists. Next time I use one like this I have to make absolutely certain I have all the proper lugs/ ground busses. I had to bootleg a ground bar for the EGC's but inspector did not ask to look there. I did it with nuts and bolts but still....


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Before anyone says anything about it, the service attachment is being moved up but the POCO has to come and move it after they get the cut-in card. Hopefully they'll for a nice drip loop.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

what did you use to build over the waste pipes for the plywood?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Before anyone says anything about it, the service attachment is being moved up but the POCO has to come and move it after they get the cut-in card. Hopefully they'll for a nice drip loop.


I sorta figured they hadn't been there yet, since there isn't a glass in that unused meter hole yet. Doesn't look like there are even cables in that panel yet. Looks like you've got more work down the road at this place, eh?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> what did you use to build over the waste pipes for the plywood?


Pressure treated 2x4's against the foundation wall, then regular 2x4's. I think I needed 4 on each side to get 6" and get over that pipe and 3/4" plywood. I made an effort not to cover up the fitting in case they ever need to replace them which they probaly will need to do sooner rather than later. 

If you notice in the first picture you see the house across the street is new. Well, there are 4 new houses and the owner believes these 4 houses are tied into the same sewer line and every so often it backs up into her waste water pipes and leaks onto her water main. That's why she has a garbage bag over the main water shutoff valve because 3 times now she's had to replace it in the past few years. Don't they have engineers who figure this crap out before building 4 new houses?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Pressure treated 2x4's against the foundation wall, then regular 2x4's. I think I needed 4 on each side to get 6" and get over that pipe and 3/4" plywood.


Wowzer. Why didn't you just hang it? Looks like the joists ran the right way.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Don't they have engineers who figure this crap out before building 4 new houses?


I'm sure she pays a sewer tax and the town should be responsible for keeping the sewage out of her basement.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm sure she pays a sewer tax and the town should be responsible for keeping the sewage out of her basement.


I did some work at a guy's house where he had rigged up a pretty elaborate back flow preventer on the sewer line. He left the cleanout cap off in the yard all the time, and he reported that sometimes he'd have a mini sewer geyser in the yard. That would have been funny to see. 

Sewer in the yard is better than backing up inside the house, I suppose.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Nice work man. Like the LB's. I think im going to switch to grey paint for the panels like yours. Ive been using flat black.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Nice job man. 

I agree about the Grey paint as well, it does look nicer than black.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Wowzer. Why didn't you just hang it? Looks like the joists ran the right way.


What do you mean by hanging it? Nailing a 2x4 across the joists and attaching it at the bottom? 

If I did it like that then I would have had an issue with the conduit sweeps if that's what you're talking about. 

I used the gray paint like this for the first time. I usually use black and have used blue once just for the hell of it. I like the way the gray looks too. Next thing I want to do is ad a routed edge.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> Nice work man. Like the LB's. I think im going to switch to grey paint for the panels like yours. Ive been using flat black.


The LB's were a little bit of a pain in the butt. The one on the far left I used two prefab 45's with a 2-3" section between them. It took a little while to figure it all out. I hate to say it but I was there from 7:30AM till 10:00PM. I had my laid off from work help me. He's handy with construction work but never did anything like this before.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> What do you mean by hanging it? Nailing a 2x4 across the joists and attaching it at the bottom?
> 
> If I did it like that then I would have had an issue with the conduit sweeps if that's what you're talking about.
> 
> I used the gray paint like this for the first time. I usually use black and have used blue once just for the hell of it. I like the way the gray looks too. Next thing I want to do is ad a routed edge.


 LOL i route edges for mounting outside stuff to wood, like pool equipment. I know its a sickness..


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I do have the carpentry bug for sure. You should check out Contractor Talk some time and look at the carpentry section. I built a killer garden arbor for my mother this spring. 

Link


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> 50 year old service with service-entrance cable and Federal Pacific panels without main breakers. Owner wanted an upgrade to new owners meter/ panel. All Square D QO equipment, ground and bond to code, copper conductors, 200 SEC's, 100 amp mains, 125 amp 120/240 20 circuit MLO panels. Inspector had an issue with split-bolt connector used to join both the water ground and ground rod connections in the meter stack but passed it anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Constructive criticism...

The LB's look like chit under the meters against the house. Should've done all that INSIDE.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The LB's look like chit under the meters against the house. Should've done all that INSIDE.


You're nuts. Inside would have meant coming out of the back of the meter can and putting LB's in the living room or something.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You're nuts.


 :laughing: 





> Inside would have meant coming out of the back of the meter can and putting LB's in the living room or something.


Yeah or dropping the meter bank down to the ground.

I think if the HOs got out some matching red paint this service would all but disappear. Paint it all except the glass on the meters.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Constructive criticism...
> 
> The LB's look like chit under the meters against the house. Should've done all that INSIDE.


:sleep1:


----------



## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You're nuts. Inside would have meant coming out of the back of the meter can and putting LB's in the living room or something.



Yeah lol, the only other thing he could have done was set a gutter under the meter pack. I think it looks great, like everyone said, the grey paint was a good idea. I think ill have to get a can for the van.:thumbsup:


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> The LB's look like chit under the meters against the house. Should've done all that INSIDE.


I agree. You have the beautiful chain link fence, a bent up gutter, the nice telco wiring and JB, the gorgeous asbestos shingles and you muck it all up with three LB's. :laughing:

I would have used sealtite :jester:


That said......Couldn't you have used cable down the wall?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> That said......Couldn't you have used cable down the wall?


With the thickness of these old rubble foundations, it's pretty tricky to get a hole drilled up into the bottom plate. Quite often, the stones are covering the entire bottom plate.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Rubble foundations? You live in Bedrock :laughing:




I'm confused

The feeders are above the plate in/thru the wall......right?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Rubble foundations? You live in Bedrock :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They come through the band board, which is below the bottom plate of the wall.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

On top of the foundation wall, there is a 2x6 plate, which is bolted to the foundation.

Then there is a rim joist that is same height of floor beams and runs around the outside wall.. that is where you drill holes for service pipes


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> On top of the foundation wall, there is a 2x6 plate, which is bolted to the foundation.
> 
> Then there is a rim joist that is same height of floor beams and runs around the outside wall.. that is where you drill holes for service pipes


Exactly. You probably already know this but that 2x6 that gets attached to the foundation wall is called the sill plate. I always come through the rim joists compared to the foundation wall because A) it's easier, B) less work getting the conduit into the panel, and C) because you never know what kind of damage you might do to the foundation especially if it's an old house, and around here there are a lot of old houses. 

As you can see with the original service, the feeders are close to the ground and were badly damaged over the years from accidental contact with a lawnmower. This is one of the reasons why I chose conduit over SE cable. The other reason is because copper is better than aluminum.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> They come through the band board, which is below the bottom plate of the wall.


 

I'm just trying to understand.:jester:

The _band board_ is simply blocking between the floor joists, right?

If yo wanted to, you could simply remove one and have easy access to the bottom plate, right?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I sorta figured they hadn't been there yet, since there isn't a glass in that unused meter hole yet. Doesn't look like there are even cables in that panel yet. Looks like you've got more work down the road at this place, eh?


Little more work to do. 

All that's left is to remove two existing circuits from the second floor panel and relocate them to the owners panel. 

One is the basement lights, the other is the smoke detector circuit. 

Actually, I'm going to combine those two circuits into one so if there's an issue with the smokes they won't be able to shut off the lights without addressing the smoke detector issue.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I'm just trying to understand.:jester:
> 
> The _band board_ is simply blocking between the floor joists, right?
> 
> If yo wanted to, you could simply remove one and have easy access to the bottom plate, right?


You guys don't have basements in the desert? 

Here is the best picture I could find for now..


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

So you could have drilled up thru the bottom plate and accessed the wall cavity if you wanted to run concealed cable.

That's all I was wondering.

If I have a choice between concealed cable and conduit, I would generally choose cable for the ease of installation.

Plus it would keep the Long Island guy off my back


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

220/221 said:


> So you could have drilled up thru the bottom plate and accessed the wall cavity if you wanted to run concealed cable.
> 
> That's all I was wondering.


Yeah I guess he could have in this case as it looks like there are service disconnects outside.

Normally in my area there is no outside disconnect so the conductors leaving the meter are service conductors and can not be run inside the wall.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> So you could have drilled up thru the bottom plate and accessed the wall cavity if you wanted to run concealed cable.
> 
> That's all I was wondering.
> 
> ...


We never do concealed cable here.. everything has to be changed sooner or later and exposed is MUCH easier.

We never use flex pvc either.. must be a regional thing.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Plus it would keep the Long Island guy off my back


What Long Island guy would that be?? :laughing:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> So you could have drilled up thru the bottom plate and accessed the wall cavity if you wanted to run concealed cable.)


Yeah, except that rubble foundations are MUCH THICKER than the illustration, and the floor joists are much shorter than modern floor joists, it's a real trick to get drilled up into an outside wall in an old home in the northeast. I'm not trying to act like it's an impossible feat, but what I am saying is that I'd have done it exactly like Mag also.


----------



## Kevin J (Dec 11, 2008)

The only thing I might have done would be use a gutter, but then again, looking at the place, you done about the best job that could be done. Like they say, no use in trying to polish a turd.


----------



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Nice, neat and clean! Are people still paying for work like that?


----------



## J Corrin (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't listen to LAWN GUY, That is a excellent job and personally, it looks great. Keep up the good work.:thumbsup:


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

J Corrin said:


> Don't listen to LAWN GUY, That is a excellent job and personally, it looks great. Keep up the good work.:thumbsup:


Even his shadow doesn't agree with him :laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Finally finished up today relocating the 2 circuits, threw in the fluorescent light that had been sitting in my dining room for a year or two, and made up a list of a few other things they want done, like motion lights, ceiling fans, and some new A/C lines.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I just noticed you have a bucket of King Insulated staples...you use insulated in NJ? I thought we only used them here in New England?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

The yellow bucket of staples in my van?

Those aren't insulated, you mean with that yellow or blue "crap" on there? 

You have to use those in NE?


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The owners only have three circuits? Is this like a house panel that feeds lighting in the halls, or does it actually feed a unit?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The yellow bucket of staples in my van?
> 
> Those aren't insulated, you mean with that yellow or blue "crap" on there?
> 
> You have to use those in NE?


They are required in Mass. by local code and insulated staples are all that are sold in supply houses in MA, RI, CT. They sell uninsulated, but only in boxes of 100 and they usually sit on the shelf gathering dust.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D, I did not know that. Everything's very regulated up there. I've used those kind before and they were a pita but I guess you get used to using them. 




InPhase277 said:


> The owners only have three circuits? Is this like a house panel that feeds lighting in the halls, or does it actually feed a unit?


Actually, only 2 circuit. 

1) The GFCI receptacle and fluorescent light
2) Basement lights and smoke detector circuit

They're both pigtailed inside the panel.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Peter D, I did not know that. Everything's very regulated up there. I've used those kind before and they were a pita but I guess you get used to using them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see. What did that 3 gang meter pack run you? Here I haven't found one for less than $2500, without the mains.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I see. What did that 3 gang meter pack run you? Here I haven't found one for less than $2500, without the mains.


Holy crap! they really cost that much!?:blink:

~Matt


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Holy crap! they really cost that much!?:blink:
> 
> ~Matt


No, sorry, that was a slip of the finger. $1500+


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

This one cost $350.00. 

$1500?? Holy smokes!


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

$350 sounds about right. More if you include the breakers. :blink:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Maybe that's what cost so much, the breakers. I haven't bought one, I just saw a price sheet, and assumed the breakers were extra.

But even then, three 200 A mains couldn't add that much to the price... hmmm... I have the sheet right here... square D mp43200 $1496... What the fizzy?


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> This one cost $350.00.
> 
> $1500?? Holy smokes!


Yeah - this was the price i thought they cost on average. You guys really spend 1500 on a 3 gang meter pack?


~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)




----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


Those are commonly called a GFCI receptacle and toggle switch.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Are you saying he should have used a handy plate?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Peter D, I did not know that. Everything's very regulated up there. I've used those kind before and they were a pita but I guess you get used to using them.


Not sure how they're a "pita." They're just metal staples with a piece of plastic on them. :laughing:

As for the regulation, I think you guys in New Jersey have us beat hands down.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


He is looking for a metal plate to go with the 1900 box :blink:


----------



## MarkyMark (Jan 31, 2009)

Peter D said:


> They are required in Mass. by local code and insulated staples are all that are sold in supply houses in MA, RI, CT. They sell uninsulated, but only in boxes of 100 and they usually sit on the shelf gathering dust.


Interesting. Around here, insulated staples are a sure sign that a handyman or homeowner has been doing some wiring. Only Lowes and Home Depot carry them.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MarkyMark said:


> Interesting. Around here, insulated staples are a sure sign that a handyman or homeowner has been doing some wiring. Only Lowes and Home Depot carry them.


That's pretty much how I view them. A pro should be able to drive a staple without crushing the cable to the point that there is conductor damage.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> That's pretty much how I view them. A pro should be able to drive a staple without crushing the cable to the point that there is conductor damage.


Think about that,, you have a bunch of low balling hacks just about giving away the job at cost. :blink:

He hires a bunch of kids to pull wires as fast as the wire comes off the spool. 

Do you think they really care about driving a staple in straight :no:


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> Think about that,, you have a bunch of low balling hacks just about giving away the job at cost. :blink:
> 
> He hires a bunch of kids to pull wires as fast as the wire comes off the spool.
> 
> Do you think they really care about driving a staple in straight :no:


Maybe, but an insulated staple will still damage the conductors, but it just won't short out. So we have a bunch of damaged conductors that no one knows about, or if we used uninsulated, we'd have a short, and we'd know there was a problem. I know that's not really an answer, but I'd rather have a short and have to find the problem, than to have a half severed wire in the wall that is waiting to smoke when a good load is applied.

At any rate, if you are driving staples so hard you damage wire, or are hiring hacks to do the same, you deserve all you get, insulated or not.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Those are commonly called a GFCI receptacle and toggle switch.


That cover, dude! That cover!


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That cover, dude! That cover!


Your right Ken, the cover is terrible! I would have gone with ivory.

Chuck:thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Your right Ken, the cover is terrible! I would have gone with ivory.
> 
> Chuck:thumbsup:


I'd go with silver or gunmetal grey, myself.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I'd go with silver or gunmetal grey, myself.


Seriously, is a metal covers required? I use them in basements, barns, workbenches but is it mandatory? Also on the UK forum you can use the colour grey, in America the name of the color is gray.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Seriously, is a metal covers required? I use them in basements, barns, workbenches but is it mandatory? Also on the UK forum you can use the colour grey, in America the name of the color is gray.


I don't know if a 'flush cover' is even allowed on a surface-mounted box. I've never done it, and don't know if it would pass a proper inspection. I always use raised covers for surface-mounted boxes.


----------



## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

I'm more impressed with the way you keep your van, that's as much of a sign of a pro as the work you installed.:thumbsup:


----------



## Boneshaker (Jul 31, 2009)

drsparky, Up in Madawaska Maine I am pretty sure duct tape is an acceptable cover.:jester:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Boneshaker said:


> I'm more impressed with the way you keep your van, that's as much of a sign of a pro as the work you installed.:thumbsup:


Yeah, just wait until he starts working out of it. :laughing:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That cover, dude! That cover!


It's in a basement. Who cares?


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> That's pretty much how I view them. A pro should be able to drive a staple without crushing the cable to the point that there is conductor damage.


It's all relative. Insulated staples have been the norm here for decades so it's not something one stops to think about.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> Interesting. Around here, insulated staples are a sure sign that a handyman or homeowner has been doing some wiring. Only Lowes and Home Depot carry them.


 
Around here it's the opposite. Unisulated staples are a sure sign a homewoner or handyman has been doing wiring.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Boneshaker said:


> drsparky, Up in Madawaska Maine I am pretty sure duct tape is an acceptable cover.:jester:


It must be silver or gun metal gray duct tape.:jester:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's in a basement. Who cares?


Me. And that's the most important person I need to impress.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Me. And that's the most important person I need to impress.


oh snap.


----------



## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Me. And that's the most important person I need to impress.



What danger does that cover pose? What benefits (other than looks does the metal raise mulbery cover offer? Why wouldn't the cover he chose be allowed? Does it not cover the box and protect the wiring/devices from debris/damage


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> What danger does that cover pose? What benefits (other than looks does the metal raise mulbery cover offer? Why wouldn't the cover he chose be allowed? Does it not cover the box and protect the wiring/devices from debris/damage


The outside edges hanging out over the box can get caught and break the cover. More than once I've seen someone start bleeding from just such an installation. If something were to pull it out from the wall (like snagging clothing), there's a slight chance the integrity of the devices could compromised. 

But the real danger is if you worked for me, I would tell you to change it. Looks like hack work to me. But hey, that's just me.

Yea, I know.... this may be 100 miles from the supply house, and you don't have a raised cover on the truck. I suppose. But using a flush cover on an exposed box just rubs me th wrong way.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

That cover has the subtle contours of a non-breakable type.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


>


Yeah I couldn't find that plate in my truck. I'm going back there next week to do some other things I'll change it then.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Your right Ken, the cover is terrible! I would have gone with ivory.
> 
> Chuck:thumbsup:



LOL! :no:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

You know what I really could have done is cut it into the plywood with 2 metal gems and run the wire behind the panel. 

True dat.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> You know what I really could have done is cut it into the plywood with 2 metal gems and run the wire behind the panel.
> 
> True dat.


If you were a REAL electrician , then yeah. You really need to return that wiring 1-2-3 book to Home Depot.

TRU DAT homey.


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

TRU


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Yeah I couldn't find that plate in my truck. I'm going back there next week to do some other things I'll change it then.


 
Why bother? Just because a Tool told you to? :laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Why bother? Just because a Tool told you to? :laughing:


Because that's the way to do it for a nice clean look. I just didn't have it. I even went to Ace Hardware and they didn't have it so instead of running to a real supply house to get what I wanted I'll wind up doing this cover plate twice. But at least it'll be done the right way. My HD 1, 2, 3, book has a peanut butter stain on the page that shows panel/ outlet wiring. :thumbup:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

NolaTigaBait said:


> TRU


Yo Yo... boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:laughing::laughing:


----------

