# Feeder to pool panel 2008



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> I don't have my 2008 handy. Am I correct that a 4 wire uf cable can not serve as the feeder to the pool panel?:001_huh:


I believe you need an insulated grounding conductor.

I have seen some good arguments that the UF sheath is an insulator but it is not a hair I would like to split with the inspector.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

..................


> 680.25 Feeders.
> These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
> (A) Wiring Methods. *Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit.* Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
> Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).
> ...


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> ..................



That is why I was asking. But what if you sleeved it in liquid tight carflex?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> That is why I was asking. But what if you sleeved it in liquid tight carflex?



For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2),* this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.*


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> That is why I was asking. But what if you sleeved it in liquid tight carflex?


Nope, here is next section after the section Dennis posted.



> *
> (B) Grounding.​*​​​​An equipment grounding conductor shall be
> installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding
> terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding
> ...




As Bob pointed out the EGC in UF cable is not insulated, instead it is covered.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO the last sentence in (B) covers it. It states the egc shall be insulated. It is not insulated in uf , it is covered- there is a difference. Also enters the panel it is not longer covered or insulated


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> Nope, here is next section after the section Dennis posted.
> 
> Chris
> [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]


I posted that section


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2),* this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.*


I almost could use the exception. The feeder was for an old hot tub. I wanted to use it to feed a panel for new pool. Oh well price just went up. Thanks guys!


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I posted that section


Sorry, I see that you did post that part as well.:thumbup:

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Originally I was thinking the insulated ground applied to hot tubs not pools. I see I was wrong. Thanks again guys!


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Originally I was thinking the insulated ground applied to hot tubs not pools. I see I was wrong. Thanks again guys!


Not a problem, better to get it right up front then have to change it after the inspection.

I had to fail a pool one time where they fed the pool with UF cable. The feeder was about 200' long and had already been buried back up and re sodded when I came out to inspect. Needless to say I was not a very popular person that day.:no:

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Not a problem, better to get it right up front then have to change it after the inspection.
> 
> I had to fail a pool one time where they fed the pool with UF cable. The feeder was about 200' long and had already been buried back up and re sodded when I came out to inspect. Needless to say I was not a very popular person that day.:no:
> 
> Chris



I always try to make sure I know what I am doing before I do it. We do a lot of new hot tubs but few new pools. Thus me posting this thread.:thumbsup:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, time for me to stir the pot....

Can anyone explain WHY a ground conductor needs to be insulated in this case, and what magical property happens to make an uninsulated ground "unsafe" or "unsuitable" for grounding pool equipment? 

Especially since one has to bond a grid, motors and all exposed metal to the very same ground? :confused1: And it all ends up back at the main panel, with its uninsulated ground?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Ok, time for me to stir the pot....
> 
> Can anyone explain WHY a ground conductor needs to be insulated in this case, and what magical property happens to make an uninsulated ground "unsafe" or "unsuitable" for grounding pool equipment?
> 
> Especially since one has to bond a grid, motors and all exposed metal to the very same ground? :confused1: And it all ends up back at the main panel, with its uninsulated ground?


 
IMO, if the ground is uninsulated and exposed to earth, fault current would partly travel through the earth back to the source, thus, slowing the tripping of OCPD


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I really think the original reason was because of the chlorine etc. that eats away at the copper. Just a guess.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> IMO, if the ground is uninsulated and exposed to earth, fault current would partly travel through the earth back to the source, thus, slowing the tripping of OCPD



I just noticed the new avatar!:thumbsup::laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I really think the original reason was because of the chlorine etc. that eats away at the copper. Just a guess.


That is my understanding as well. An insulated conductor would be more resistant to corrosion than would an uninsulated conductor.

Chris


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I just noticed the new avatar!:thumbsup::laughing:


 
Yeah, I'm working on my gut


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yeah, I'm working on my gut


Actually that was in July. In November I quit smoking and started running 4 miles every morning. I lost almost 20 pounds and now have that 30 inch waist I always wanted. I can even see my peter now...:laughing:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Actually that was in July. In November I quit smoking and started running 4 miles every morning. I lost almost 20 pounds and now have that 30 inch waist I always wanted. I can even see my peter now...:laughing:


:brows::brows::brows::brows:

~Matt


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> :brows:
> 
> ~Matt


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


>


:laughing:

Dont worry... i wont look at you peter.. but watch out for that other guy.

~Matt


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> That is why I was asking. But what if you sleeved it in liquid tight carflex?


Yur talking about that big FLAT ribbon of UF? Or some cut of tray cable?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Can't go wrong with CLX cable!


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Yur talking about that big FLAT ribbon of UF? Or some cut of tray cable?




Yea it was big flat uf cable. I knew the ground had to be insulated but I was thinking that was for the branch circuit not the feeder which is not the case.
I'm going to run pvc under the house.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Can't go wrong with CLX cable!


Can you show me where that is an acceptable wiring method in 680.25?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Ok, time for me to stir the pot....
> 
> Can anyone explain WHY a ground conductor needs to be insulated in this case, and what magical property happens to make an uninsulated ground "unsafe" or "unsuitable" for grounding pool equipment?


To make you ask questions, give you an opportunity to say how stupid the code is and how much better it would be if you made the rules. :laughing:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I really think the original reason was because of the chlorine etc. that eats away at the copper. Just a guess.


That makes sense to me, and is probably the reason behind the requirement. Thanks Dennis!!:thumbup:



TOOL_5150 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Dont worry... i wont look at you peter.. but watch out for that other guy.
> 
> ~Matt


Youse talkin about me? :laughing:



BBQ said:


> To make you ask questions, give you an opportunity to say how stupid the code is and how much better it would be if you made the rules. :laughing:


You got that right!! The electrical world would be a better place if I had my way in the Code making process. 

No AFCI's 
No MWBCs
No TR
Common sense being used as a part of the process. 

So there. :tt2:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mxslick said:


> No AFCI's
> No MWBCs
> No TR
> Common sense being used as a part of the process.
> ...


None of your ideas strikes me as commonsense, I am veryy glad you have no part of the code making process.

So there. :tt2:


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> None of your ideas strikes me as commonsense, I am veryy glad you have no part of the code making process.
> 
> So there. :tt2:


Man it is so much fun pulling your chain!!:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mxslick said:


> Man it is so much fun pulling your chain!!:laughing:



Pull it all you want, but watch out, you may get a surprise. :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

While we are on the simauir subject with the Underground runs in pool set up I try to find a art #'s which they will not allow alum conductor to the pool panel.

I know someone mention to me but I can't find it in NEC unless that was a addmendemt to the local/ state code.

AFAIK I never run alum conductors to the pool panels but I did have couple peoples asked me about it but I just shy away due IMO the corline and hevey moisture situaion is not a wonderfull spot for alum conductors at all.

Merci,
Marc


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> While we are on the simauir subject with the Underground runs in pool set up I try to find a art #'s which they will not allow alum conductor to the pool panel.
> 
> I know someone mention to me but I can't find it in NEC unless that was a addmendemt to the local/ state code.
> 
> ...


 

True, but does the NEC mandate that?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> True, but does the NEC mandate that?



It specifies copper for bonding conductors. I don't see where is says you could not use aluminum anywhere. It does say you can't use aluminum conduit where subject to corrosion.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> It specifies copper for bonding conductors. I don't see where is says you could not use aluminum anywhere. It does say you can't use aluminum conduit where subject to corrosion.


Now that is true I did recall it was written in the NEC in couple spots so it was very obovus that you can not use the alum conductor in that evroment.

Merci.
Marc


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