# Sump pump battery backup



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I have a client that has a dual stage sump pump (2) 120v/20A circuits in the panel.. (2) dedicated Receptacle that service (2) separate plugs...

I'm trying to find a batter backup system but every search comes up either a battery only or a complete sump pump kit..

What is the missing piece I should be looking for? I basically need something that accepts the (2) plugs and automatically transfers the power between AC and DC 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I always hit up Grainger for this type thing:

https://www.grainger.com/product/PHCC-PRO-SERIES-Battery-Backup-Sump-Pumps-WP5656343/_/N-huw/Ntt-battery+back+up+sump+pump?EndecaKeyword=battery+back+up+sump+pump&NLSCM=17&searchBar=true&searchRedirect=battery+back+up+sump+pump&sst=All&breadcrumbCatId=2246&s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1APP3_AS01?$smthumb$


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Zoeller pumps come highly recommended.
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...targid=kwd-10785049432&ref=pd_sl_55alc4gx7b_b


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This is the problem I'm having is they already have a very nice sump pump system installed with no backup 


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bird dog said:


> Zoeller pumps come highly recommended.
> https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...targid=kwd-10785049432&ref=pd_sl_55alc4gx7b_b


Zoeller makes some decent pumps for sure!:thumbsup:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Basically I need a UPS only 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

*Sump pump batter backup*

I've seen a setup before with a battery and a large inverter/charger but looks like the inverter to run (2) 20amp sump pumps is really big money .... there has to be another way , considering the complete kits are $400-$600


Update ,
Looks like I'll need to piece this together myself


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Every time I have had someone call me looking for a battery backup sump pump, I always left having sold them a portable generator connection or an auto standby generator.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Every time I have had someone call me looking for a battery backup sump pump, I always left having sold them a portable generator connection or an auto standby generator.




I sold them a portable , but it not automatic ... so they want the battery system also...


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

OP, you've got baseball on the brain.

See a doctor.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You could roll your own UPS but wouldn't you be better off with a generator and ATS? UPS is very expensive for high draw and long runtime.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

*Sump pump batter backup*



telsa said:


> OP, you've got baseball on the brain.
> 
> See a doctor.




Apparently , because this response is confusing.. im not into baseball neither 

What don't you get here ?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

*Sump pump batter backup*



splatz said:


> You could roll your own UPS but wouldn't you be better off with a generator and ATS? UPS is very expensive for high draw and long runtime.




They cannot afford a standby ATS system , that was off the table immediately...

(The way the house is positioned it would involve a lot of underground work )

So they want a portable for power outages , but they want the automatic pump system because they travel alot and are in a high flood area...

The diagram I sent is an easy build and not outrageously priced....

2 batteries , and an inverter/charger 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> They cannot afford a standby ATS system , that was off the table immediately...
> 
> So they want a portable for power outages , but they want the automatic pump system because they travel alot and are in a high flood area
> 
> ...


If they can't afford the ATS they definitely can't afford the UPS, so sell them a monitoring system, they will be able to afford a UPS big enough for that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What about one of those sump pumps that are powered by the city water?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> If they can't afford the ATS they definitely can't afford the UPS, so sell them a monitoring system, they will be able to afford a UPS big enough for that.




The supplies to build the UPS runs $500 (2 batteries , cables, fuses, inverter/charger ....

The natural gas ATS generator she was comparing is a 9-12k job with the plumbing because of all the underground work involved (including the generator)


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What about one of those sump pumps that are powered by the city water?




Looks cool ... but they just had a plumber install this dual stage sump pump and well in basement , so I really think they want to integrate what they have 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

WronGun said:


> The supplies to build the UPS runs $500 (2 batteries , cables, fuses, inverter/charger ....
> 
> The natural gas ATS generator she was comparing is a 9-12k job with the plumbing because of all the underground work involved (including the generator)


How long will those batteries run at 4800VA (2 x 20A x 120V) in the event of a flood?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

*Sump pump batter backup*



splatz said:


> How long will those batteries run at 4800VA (2 x 20A x 120V) in the event of a flood?




I'm going to figure this out but I'm
Looking At the Basement Watchdog big standby battery... It's listed At 50 hrs with their system (which doesn't sound right at all) I will figure it out for these specific pumps I'm powering and since their are 2 , I will run 2 batteries and enclose them in a marine case..

They are around $130 per battery 


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I suspect you're going to get about a half an hour runtime if the pumps run at 20A @ 120V, that's 200A at 12V, so a 100 amp hour battery is going to last half an hour. A 4800VA inverter is not going to be cheap either. 

Do the pumps really run at 20A @ 120V, or is it just a 20A breaker for inrush? But even if the pumps run at a quarter of that I could see it not being enough runtime in a real flood.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

splatz said:


> I suspect you're going to get about a half an hour runtime if the pumps run at 20A @ 120V, that's 200A at 12V, so a 100 amp hour battery is going to last half an hour. A 4800VA inverter is not going to be cheap either.
> 
> Do the pumps really run at 20A @ 120V, or is it just a 20A breaker for inrush? But even if the pumps run at a quarter of that I could see it not being enough runtime in a real flood.




Your probably right ... after figuring out the real numbers It may be that it won't be worth it..... they are on 20A breakers but the pumps are sealed in the well tank and I didn't want to break it open at the time... I'll have to get the literature on the pumps...




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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Your probably right ... after figuring out the real numbers It may be that it won't be worth it..... they are on 20A breakers but the pumps are sealed in the well tank and I didn't want to break it open at the time... *I'll have to get the literature on the pumps...
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Wouldn't this be the actual info you'd want in hand before you designed a system to run them?

I didn't get the baseball reference but sometimes I do get the feeling you work backwards too often.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

*Sump pump batter backup*



MechanicalDVR said:


> Wouldn't this be the actual info you'd want in hand before you designed a system to run them?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't get the baseball reference but sometimes I do get the feeling you work backwards too often.




If you look at the starting post ... I didn't have any approach direction.... I thought backup kits were available in different sizes/run-times.....after searching I realized that is not the case...

And yes 6 months in to being an EC I have definitely gone about a few things backwards and learned a couple hard lessons ....but often ? I don't think 


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

You're going to spend a fortune on this....

A guy really needs to nail down the EXACT amp draw required as well as the EXACT length of time they need to run.

This isn't a one or two amp computer power supply that doesn't draw anything, you're running a pump. That takes some power. UPS prices in my experience go up in price exponentially with size, and you're already starting at the high end just because the size of the load you're trying to run.

Once you get the load and the run time down, I'd call APC/Schneider or whatever UPS company you prefer and talk to them. Last thing you want to do is kill the UPS with a hard starting pump.

Just my two cents.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

You need to stick your amp meter on the circuit, see what the pump draws. Then find out how often the pump runs. Do your calculations and come back with that info.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WronGun said:


> If you look at the starting post ... I didn't have any approach direction.... I thought backup kits were available in different sizes/run-times.....after searching I realized that is not the case...
> 
> And yes 6 months in to being an EC I have definitely gone about a few things backwards and learned a couple hard lessons ....but often ? I don't think
> 
> ...


I think you need to take things a little slower, gather all the info you can and then formulate a plan, then get back to the customer. 

Don't put the cart before the horse is what I want you to keep in mind.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Honestly, it sounds like the HO didn't do their homework.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I think you need to take things a little slower, gather all the info you can and then formulate a plan, then get back to the customer.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't put the cart before the horse is what I want you to keep in mind.




I agree.. that is what I'm trying to do though .... customer has no information as to what my solution is 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Bird dog said:


> Honestly, it sounds like the HO didn't do their homework.




These sump pump backup systems come all together in 1 purchase.... they didn't go about it the right way. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You never know how the pumps are going to run. Will they run for 10 seconds every 4 minutes, or constantly for 7 hours? There are too many different factors (current rainfall, past rainfall, groundwater, water table, etc. etc.) to make assumptions. 

Since they already have a nice pump system, tell them to sell the portable generator and buy one of these: https://www.norwall.com/products/75...sential-Backup-Power-with-50A-Load-Center-ATS

Plop it down right next to the meter and be done with it.


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## Glock23gp (Mar 10, 2014)

Baseball reference was because in the first couple posts Wron mispelled better with "batter"...

Telsa helping a brother out

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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Glock23gp said:


> Baseball reference was because in the first couple posts Wron mispelled better with "batter"...
> 
> Telsa helping a brother out
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Well, my own brother has baseball on the brain right now. 

( He's far gone. )

I thought it might be catching, nationally.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> They cannot afford a standby ATS system , that was off the table immediately...
> 
> So they want a portable for power outages , but they want the automatic pump system because they travel alot and are in a high flood area...
> 
> ...


You're WAY underthinking this !

The inverter/charger , It takes your 120V and gives you it's rated DC output and also charges your battery(s). You're drawing assumes your running a 12VDC pump. You would need another inverter to run an AC pump.
Your missing a battery controller ! ... are you going to totally discharge those batteries ?

For your battery calcs ... 80% discharge for AGM , 50% for flooded ... ie, you won't get 'full' amphours from your batteries (if you want them to last for more than a month or 2)


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I think those battery kits are probably OK for basements that get a few inches of water - you'd have to work it out to calculate how much water then can pump on a charge. For some homes that's fine, that's all they get; for others, like some around here that are built along streams, there's a lot more pumping when the water rises. 

If natural gas is too expensive, propane might be better ... you could probably get days of runtime without too much trouble.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

splatz said:


> I think those battery kits are probably OK for basements that get a few inches of water - you'd have to work it out to calculate how much water then can pump on a charge. For some homes that's fine, that's all they get; for others, like some around here that are built along streams, there's a lot more pumping when the water rises.
> 
> If natural gas is too expensive, propane might be better ... you could probably get days of runtime without too much trouble.


Good point Splatz... 

If these people are gone for days at a time, I hope they have a BIG basement for all those batteries :blink:

roughly .... 1/3hp sump , around 35DCA ... gone for days .... :no:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> I suspect you're going to get about a half an hour runtime if the pumps run at 20A @ 120V, that's 200A at 12V, so a 100 amp hour battery is going to last half an hour. A 4800VA inverter is not going to be cheap either.
> 
> Do the pumps really run at 20A @ 120V, or is it just a 20A breaker for inrush? But even if the pumps run at a quarter of that I could see it not being enough runtime in a real flood.


This is a pretty misunderstood topic in batteries. A 100 AH battery rating does NOT mean it can supply 100 amps for an hour, or 200 amps for 1/2 hour, or 50 amps for 2 hours, etc. The AH capacity changes as the load changes, so the rating is based on what current it takes to run that battery to 0% over 20 hours, for lead-acid batteries.

For example, the batteries I have out at the Super-Secret Off Grid RePhase Remote Property are 205 AH, at the 20 hour rate. This means those batteries can supply 205/20 = 10.25 amps for 20 hours before being completely dead. BUT thay can supply 25 amps for 6.5 hours, or 75 amps 75 amps for 1.75 hours. The higher the draw, the lower the AH. There is no way my 205 AH batteries could supply 205 amps for more than a few minutes.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> This is a pretty misunderstood topic in batteries. A 100 AH battery rating does NOT mean it can supply 100 amps for an hour, or 200 amps for 1/2 hour, or 50 amps for 2 hours, etc. The AH capacity changes as the load changes, so the rating is based on what current it takes to run that battery to 0% over 20 hours, for lead-acid batteries.
> 
> For example, the batteries I have out at the Super-Secret Off Grid RePhase Remote Property are 205 AH, at the 20 hour rate. This means those batteries can supply 205/20 = 10.25 amps for 20 hours before being completely dead. BUT thay can supply 25 amps for 6.5 hours, or 75 amps 75 amps for 1.75 hours. The higher the draw, the lower the AH. There is no way my 205 AH batteries could supply 205 amps for more than a few minutes.


You would still need to double your battery AH figures, assuming a 50% total discharge as well (Although I did see you say 'completely dead':thumbsup


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> This is a pretty misunderstood topic in batteries. A 100 AH battery rating does NOT mean it can supply 100 amps for an hour, or 200 amps for 1/2 hour, or 50 amps for 2 hours, etc. The AH capacity changes as the load changes, so the rating is based on what current it takes to run that battery to 0% over 20 hours, for lead-acid batteries.
> 
> For example, the batteries I have out at the Super-Secret Off Grid RePhase Remote Property are 205 AH, at the 20 hour rate. This means those batteries can supply 205/20 = 10.25 amps for 20 hours before being completely dead. BUT thay can supply 25 amps for 6.5 hours, or 75 amps 75 amps for 1.75 hours. The higher the draw, the lower the AH. There is no way my 205 AH batteries could supply 205 amps for more than a few minutes.


This was illustrated during WWII. Subs couldn't achieve peak underwater speed for more than a minute or two. That's IT. To get any range, they had to settle for 2 knots,,,

Burst speed would only be used to get out from underneath an intense depth charge pattern.

Such is the nature of lead-acid batteries.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

emtnut said:


> You're WAY underthinking this !
> 
> The inverter/charger , It takes your 120V and gives you it's rated DC output and also charges your battery(s). You're drawing assumes your running a 12VDC pump. You would need another inverter to run an AC pump.
> Your missing a battery controller ! ... are you going to totally discharge those batteries ?
> ...




The conclusion is : its not worth it !

But just to clarify .. technically it would work with the right amount of batteries... 

The diagram may be wrong.. the inverter I was looking at is specifically for pumps ( or marketed for pumps) It plugs into the wall and charges the batteries and has a tender built in. It also detects power-out and transfers the power to batteries. 

The inverter has 2 GFCI receptacles for output... it actually would work but by the time I size everything out and price it .... it's not worth it.....I'm going to try to push the bigger ATS generator


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> The conclusion is : its not worth it !
> 
> But just to clarify .. technically it would work with the right amount of batteries...
> 
> ...


IMO ... not worth it. Gen option would be the best bet.
The problem with the 'right amount of batteries' ... is just that .... what is the right amount of batteries ? How long will the power be off for ??
And by the time your done, it won't be cheap either.

I'd be interested if you have a link to that inverter/charger. Seems like a nice unit if it does all that.


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