# 12/3 thru every outlet



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> 12/3 thru each box splicing the red thru.


WTF did the red do exactly?


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Maybe he came from a broken home, where the circuits were all underpowered and constantly tripping, and he swore one day when he became an electrician he would make sure no other child ever again would lose the power when on the final level of Space Invaders.

Think of the children!


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Maybe they wanted to have the option of which receptacle they could switch?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> WTF did the red do exactly?


It most likely went to a switched receptacle somewhere in the room. 

Roger


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

*No the second circuit carried thru to the great room receptacles, thru 8 outlet boxes in the hallway and ground floor sitting room. Again the same thing in the living room*


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Well that's just stupid then


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

drspec said:


> Well that's just stupid then


That's the term I used to the HO to describe it.:laughing:


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

Ran out of 12/2 and had 1000' of 12/3?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

347sparky said:


> Ran out of 12/2 and had 1000' of 12/3?


I'd still drop everything and go out and buy 12/2 just over the price and added labor of terminating 3 wire MWBC thru every box. I can see how the HO paid 50k in just electrical work on a 4k sq ft home. A 200 amp 40 ckt panel with 46 circuits and a 20 circuit sub panel packed full.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> I'd still drop everything and go out and buy 12/2 just over the price and added labor of terminating 3 wire MWBC thru every box. I can see how the HO paid 50k in just electrical work on a 4k sq ft home. A 200 amp 40 ckt panel with 46 circuits and a 20 circuit sub panel packed full.


That's the three P's










Piss Poor Planing....:laughing::laughing:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Who does this ??? I know, the idiot that wired the home I had to raise resplice and install new devices on. In almost every room they ran 12/3 thru each box splicing the red thru. The customer was questioning why I charged double a 14/2 point on those outlets.
> 
> Anyone here do wierd stuff like that thinking it is better?


???... what do you mean by "double a 14/2 point"?


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> *No the second circuit carried thru to the great room receptacles, *


Well there's your answer, it was a second circuit going to another room, it was simply done before the 2008 code cycle.

Roger


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## Auselect (Dec 2, 2011)

Sounds like a waste of time to me, it reminds me of a home I renovated awhile back, they ran 14/3 to each receptacle throughout the whole house but switched the bottom half of each receptacle at each room. I thought it might of just been a common method but it's the only time I've seen it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Little-Lectric said:


> ???... what do you mean by "double a 14/2 point"?


I gave him phone quote of $30 a piece to raise each box over the flood level and install a new device, so i charged $50 a piece.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> That's the three P's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


two 15 amp circuits for kitchen lighting, 18 50 watt mr16s , 8 20 watt hockey pucks, two pendants over island. The guy was underjoyed when I told him his last electrician made him spend an extra $20k on needless crap.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Auselect said:


> Sounds like a waste of time to me, it reminds me of a home I renovated awhile back, they ran 14/3 to each receptacle throughout the whole house but switched the bottom half of each receptacle at each room. I thought it might of just been a common method but it's the only time I've seen it.


I install that way in most houses I wire if HO wants(bed and living rooms).


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand what you're complaining about.

I'm wiring a house right now ... and I'm running #12 to everything except the smokes. That's how I do things: 20A circuits all the way.

I also "share neutrals" on MWBC's. Sure, it's nice to be able to hit the first box, then have the second circuit run off in another direction, but that's not always practical.

For example, on (commercial) jobs where I have 3-phase power, the first circuit in the run will use the blue wire; then it's MC with only red and black. Only the last section gets the '1-circuit' cable. Until then, every box has the un-used wires spliced and pushed to the back of each box.

The house I'm doing right now has me running 12/3 Romex (using your terms) to every receptacle in the "family" room, with the switch to 12/2 coming at the end, where I continue on to feed the living room. (No AFCI's here).

It's also my practice to use pigtails, so none of the 'splice' conections should ever need to be taken apart.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're complaining about.
> 
> I'm wiring a house right now ... and I'm running #12 to everything except the smokes. That's how I do things: 20A circuits all the way.
> 
> ...


The bare minimum letter of the law guys are gonna jump all over you for exceeding the NEC , lol ! Just a warning , but I don't disagree with you at all !


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

I always ponder whether I would pull 12gauge to plugs in my own home.. I never actually do it, but it often seems like a good idea to me.

For customers though, how do you convince them to pay more for it, or do they even know it costs more?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

FastFokker said:


> I always ponder whether I would pull 12gauge to plugs in my own home.. I never actually do it, but it often seems like a good idea to me.
> 
> For customers though, how do you convince them to pay more for it, or do they even know it costs more?


I have 14 in my house too, never has been an issue.


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

We use #12 strictly, just because its less SKUs and spools to stock in our limited space, less stock to control, etc.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

vinister said:


> We use #12 strictly, just because its less SKUs and spools to stock in our limited space, less stock to control, etc.


SKUs??:blink:

Also the majority of a house can be done in 14 wire so why would you only stock #12?:blink:


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Also the majority of a house can be done in 14 wire so why would you only stock #12?:blink:


How the heck can you ask a question to an answer that was just given? lol 



HARRY304E said:


> SKUs??:blink:


Stock Keeping Unit.. I looked it up on the internet.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> How the heck can you ask a question to an answer that was just given? lol
> 
> 
> 
> Stock Keeping Unit.. I looked it up on the internet.


 
the bar code and number on everything you buy is a "SKU" #

I just keep my stock at the supplier...saves on space and barcodes:thumbsup:


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

vinister said:


> We use #12 strictly, just because its less SKUs and spools to stock in our limited space, less stock to control, etc.


 

copper must be so cheap in canada they dont have to worry about it eating their profits....:001_huh:


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I wear of all this chatter about the 'expense' of wire.

Of all the costs in a job, the wire itself is a very minor item. "Major" expenses are simple overhead and inefficient work practices. Heck, simply having to park the truck out in a muddy lot costs me more than a little wire. 

20A wire might cost more than 15A wire, but you need fewer circuits that way. That can mean the difference between needing a sub-panel and not. Time lost accidentally trying to hook a light up to the smoke alarm circuit can easily consume your 'wire savings.'

Best of all, you don't get call-backs when the teen princess has her curling iron and blow drier going at the same time. Call-backs are a black hole for your profits.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I wear of all this chatter about the 'expense' of wire.
> 
> Of all the costs in a job, the wire itself is a very minor item. "Major" expenses are simple overhead and inefficient work practices. Heck, simply having to park the truck out in a muddy lot costs me more than a little wire.
> 
> ...


 
$191.29 Southwire 1,000 ft. 14/2 Type NM-B Cable
$289.40 Southwire Romex SIMpull 1,000 ft. 12/2 Type NM-B Cable

I can only assume you are using 20A rated devices on all these 20A circuits also right?

$1.19 Leviton 15 Amp Tamper-Resistant Duplex Outlet - White
$3.29Leviton 20 Amp Tamper Resistant Duplex Outlet - White

$0.69Leviton 15-Amp Single-Pole Toggle Switch - White
$4.99Cooper Wiring Devices 20-Amp Single Pole Light Switch-White


and IDK about you but bathrooms have always been 20A receptacles so your teen princess shouldnt have a problem unless she is curling her wet hair in the hallway because the afci will not allow her to use a blow dryer in the bedroom right?


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I wear of all this chatter about the 'expense' of wire.
> 
> Time lost accidentally trying to hook a light up to the smoke alarm circuit can easily consume your 'wire savings.'


IMO if you can't tell the difference between a light box and a smoke detector box you have more issues than are being discussed here.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I wear of all this chatter about the 'expense' of wire.
> 
> 20A wire might cost more than 15A wire, but you need fewer circuits that way. That can mean the difference between needing a sub-panel and not.


 
Who would need more than 40 circuits to wire a single family house anyway?
Except for extreme customs of course but then your wiring footage and devices multiply that much more.

look I'm all for going the extra mile to do a quality job but some things just aren't realistic. come on now, how many of you have actually done a new house wire with all 12 wire without a special request and extra cost?


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I wear of all this chatter about the 'expense' of wire.
> 
> Of all the costs in a job, the wire itself is a very minor item. "Major" expenses are simple overhead and inefficient work practices.


 
sorry I just can't leave it alone ignorance annoys me!

So your saying materials are a minor part of your job costs being easily outweighed by your overhead and parking issues? Then maybe it wasnt a good time to buy a fleet of new vans. just sayin.....


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're complaining about.
> 
> I also "share neutrals" on MWBC's.


How do you pass inspections? Do use all two pole breakers to handle tie your MWBC's then number your neutrals?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

woostaguy said:


> How do you pass inspections? Do use all two pole breakers to handle tie your MWBC's then number your neutrals?


Good point ! I'm picturing an expensive panel with all the 2 pole 20's in there , lol ! Makes it a hell of a lot harder to quickly find a range or dryer breaker too , when the whole panel is loaded with 2 poles , assuming that's what's happening ?


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

woostaguy said:


> $191.29 Southwire 1,000 ft. 14/2 Type NM-B Cable
> $289.40 Southwire Romex SIMpull 1,000 ft. 12/2 Type NM-B Cable
> 
> I can only assume you are using 20A rated devices on all these 20A circuits also right?
> ...


20A devices are only required if there is only 1 device on the circuit


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## CopperSlave (Feb 9, 2012)

woostaguy said:


> come on now, how many of you have actually done a new house wire with all 12 wire without a special request and extra cost?


Every house we do is done this way. Some areas we do work in DO NOT ALLOW #14...at all. One of our main resi builders we do work for will not accept it either.



woostaguy said:


> I can only assume you are using 20A rated devices on all these 20A circuits also right?


Why would he do that?



woostaguy said:


> $191.29 Southwire 1,000 ft. 14/2 Type NM-B Cable
> $289.40 Southwire Romex SIMpull 1,000 ft. 12/2 Type NM-B Cable


We buy our NM usually about 60,000' at a time. Our cost per roll is less than what you posted for the #14.



drumnut08 said:


> Good point ! I'm picturing an expensive panel with all the 2 pole 20's in there , lol ! Makes it a hell of a lot harder to quickly find a range or dryer breaker too , when the whole panel is loaded with 2 poles , assuming that's what's happening ?


As long as the panel is labeled properly, how would it be harder?
The cost of a few extra 2-pole breakers is far outweighed by the extra labor and material to pull an additional homerun.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Hippie said:


> 20A devices are only required if there is only 1 device on the circuit


Exactly, there would be no reason to use 20 amp devices on 20 amp general lighting circuits.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I always use #12 on a 15 and #10 on a 20 amp circuit. 
Here's why,, ok give me a second I gotta stop laughing. 

Due to the vibrating electron motion created by AC voltage, copper molecules are bumped out of the end of the wire when energized. 

The breaker panel, thru the circuit breaker, forces electricity into the wire on one end & copper falls out the other each time the circuit is used. 

This can be see 2 ways.
(1) First by the tiny spark seen as you plug something in or out. The copper molecule vaporizes very quickly.
(2) By the noise a vacuum cleaner makes as it sucks up the copper molecules next to the baseboard. 

This normally is not a problem for newer homes. It takes many years for the copper to become so small. This can be easily seen by looking at old knob & tube homes. Those homes are so dangerous that they burst into flames when touched. This Is the reason they should all be rewired. 

Sounds good don't it?


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

woostaguy said:


> and IDK about you but bathrooms have always been 20A receptacles


Please provide this code section


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

woostaguy said:


> copper must be so cheap in canada they dont have to worry about it eating their profits....:001_huh:


There is so much more to it than that. 

1. We are not residential, never said we were. 

2. We are a factory, the buildings are built inside it. We have to stock hundreds of spools of wire, it needs to be on-hand. We go through spools of #12/2 by the dozens per week. 

3. The more types and sizes of wire we use, the more space they all take. You need 14/2 bx, 14/3 bx, 14/3 soow, 14/2 teck, 14/3 teck, 14/4 teck, it goes on and on. Each sku we need to have 4 spools on hand at any given time, that adds up to a whole other stock room. 

4. this is canada, copper is much cheaper than real estate. The more buildings we can fit in our factory, the more money we make. why would I stock a crapload of 14 gauge wire if I can fit another building in that space that sells for $200k?

5. stock control, takes human effort. This is canada. Human effort is much more expensive than copper. 

6. We do not need to use 20A devices just because its wired with #12. Do you?? It's still a 15A circuit, even if I wire it with #12... since when is wire a current limiting device?

7. We often use 20A switches even on 15A lighting circuits, simply because the 20A switches are spec-rated, and the 15A switches are resi crap. We are in it for more than the profit on the part... we want to build a quality product that lasts so that our company continues to grow. 

8. Our materials are maybe 5% of the cost of our products, good labor is expensive!

9. Our price difference between 14 and 12 is less than 5%... that happens when you buy lots. The distributor prefers if we buy high quantity of fewer SKU's, it increases their buying power, which in turn reduces the cost to us. 

10. We can generally upgrade the 15A circuits to 20A circuits painlessly by swapping the breaker and device, after sale. 

Need more reasons?


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Well, I'm glad a few others caught that error regarding 20-a devices  .

The 'parking' issue most seem to have missed .... having to slog through the mud on a rough site really knocks down the productivity of the crew, meaning labor costs go up ... and labor costs more than materials, every day of the week.

Light box? Smoke box? I'm not sure what you mean. All I know is my 4-squares all look alike to me! Let's see ... is that third red wire for the future ceiling fan, part of a 3-way switch set-up ... or, is it the 'communicator' for interconnected smokes? 

I can see who has no teen daughters :laughing: "Princess" is quite likely to have the curling iron, etc., on her table in her bedroom - not in the bath. Not that the 20-A bath circuit is much assurance, though - not with low-ballers putting multiple baths on the same 20-A circuit, and hiding the lone GFCI somewhere i the 'south 40.'

They're design issues, and each is entitled to his own. One man may prefer to be known as the 'cheapest, laziest guy around.' As for me, I prefer to be known as "His stuff works!"


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Makes sense to me. Nothing wrong with going above minimum code! 

Sure is a lot of resistance to using a lower resistance conductor! HOW DARE YOU!

I should talk to my boss about the idea of just buying 12gauge.. If we could get it for the right price, I'm sure he'd be game. Saves us pulling spares for future proofing. 

My biggest concern is box fill and the difficulty of working with 12 over 14. Sometimes it's tight in those boxes, especially with a dimmer or gfci.


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> My biggest concern is box fill and the difficulty of working with 12 over 14. Sometimes it's tight in those boxes, especially with a dimmer or gfci.


Yeah, box fill is an issue. Mostly because of our wall construction we are limited to 2" shallow boxes. We do the Pass & Seymour 3-in-1 commercial combo switches as well, with 2 circuits per device. Boxes are tighter than we would like, but it works. If its going to be too much, we do low current switching with relays above the drop ceiling.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

fibes said:


> please provide this code section


210.11(c) (3)


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> I can see who has no teen daughters :laughing: "Princess" is quite likely to have the curling iron, etc., on her table in her bedroom - not in the bath. Not that the 20-A bath circuit is much assurance, though - not with low-ballers putting multiple baths on the same 20-A circuit, and hiding the lone GFCI somewhere i the 'south 40.'
> 
> My 14 yo daughter locks herself in the bathroom and if she did even try to do something in her bedroom she would probrably loose it immediately since you cant even see her floor with all the stuff on it.
> 
> ...


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> Light box? Smoke box? I'm not sure what you mean. All I know is my 4-squares all look alike to me! Let's see ... is that third red wire for the future ceiling fan, part of a 3-way switch set-up ... or, is it the 'communicator' for interconnected smokes?


Sorry, but I have never had that problem of identifying a smoke....if that is a continuing issue for you can I suggest writing a big S inside the box with your sharpie


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> Well, I'm glad a few others caught that error regarding 20-a devices  .quote]
> 
> I thought there was a feed through rating clause but cant find it (and dont have time) to reference so I guess I stand corrected. sorry


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Amish Electrician said:


> They're design issues, and each is entitled to his own. One man may prefer to be known as the 'cheapest, laziest guy around.' As for me, I prefer to be known as "His stuff works!"


NOW, I am glad we agree 100% on something.


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## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

woostaguy said:


> 210.11(c) (3)


Read it again slowly and tell me where it mentions a 20 amp receptacle



> (3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

Fibes said:


> Read it again slowly and tell me where it mentions a 20 amp receptacle


 
210.21(B)
(3) Receptacle Ratings.
Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)

210.11(c)
(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets. 

In my interperatation 210.21(b)(3) a 20A circuit having only 1 receptacle, the receptacle must match the over current circuit protection

In my interperatation 210.11(c)(3) a bathroom must have at least 1 dedicated 20 A circuit


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

woostaguy said:


> 210.21(B)
> (3) Receptacle Ratings.
> Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)
> 
> ...


It can supply outlets in multiple bathrooms, there's an illustration in the handbook I believe


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

woostaguy said:


> In my interperatation 210.21(b)(3) a 20A circuit having only 1 receptacle, the receptacle must match the over current circuit protection


 A duplex receptacle is two receptacles



woostaguy said:


> In my interperatation 210.11(c)(3) a bathroom must have at least 1 dedicated 20 A circuit


I don't see where this was in question.


Roger


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

woostaguy said:


> 210.21(B)
> (3) Receptacle Ratings.
> Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)
> 
> ...


Doesn't mean each bathroom gets it's own circuit, one 20 amp circuit can be GFCI protected at the first bathroom and daisy chained thru several more bathrooms feeding ONLY the outlets. You can hit the lighting only if that one circuit feeds only that one bathroom.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> You can hit the lighting only if that one circuit feeds only that one bathroom.


Code reference??


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Hippie said:


> Code reference??


wait until I open the book again:laughing:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't have the 2011 handy but in the 2008 NEC it's 210.11 (C) (3) exception


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

drspec said:


> I don't have the 2011 handy but in the 2008 NEC it's 210.11 (C) (3) exception


The exception says other equipment in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) & (A)(2).

210.23(A) Exception states that the SABCs, laundry and bath ckts shall supply only receptacle outlets


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Since the exception listed in 210.11 C 3 specifically mentions 210.23 A 1 and A 2, you don't look at the exception in 210.23 A.


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

Here in NYC it's #12 minimum for 15 & 20A circuits. 

An easy way for us to remember the Amendments here is:

6 = 60A

Then go up or down one size per standard amperage...ie:

8 = 40A
10= 30A
12=15&20A

We only use 14 for fixture tails...and even that is now questionable.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

icefalkon said:


> Here in NYC it's #12 minimum for 15 & 20A circuits.
> 
> 
> 
> We only use 14 for fixture tails...and even that is now questionable.


I would love to see a local code reference for this. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would love to see if it is a written adopted code, or just something that is assumed


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

6 Romex is only good for 55 amps


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

k_buz said:


> I would love to see a local code reference for this. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would love to see if it is a written adopted code, or just something that is assumed



*2011 NYC Electrical Code*
* based upon the 2008 National Electrical Code*​
Local Law 64 - Amendments to the 2008 National Electrical Code

Page 30 - *Section 210.24* - *Replace the value "14" that appears twice in the column headed 15A, and once each in the column headed 20A and 30A in the Circuit Rating with the value "12" and "10" respectively.*


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## icefalkon (Dec 16, 2007)

drspec said:


> 6 Romex is only good for 55 amps


Type NM Cable is unacceptable as a wiring method in NYC. Except in the following:

1 and 2 Family Dwellings

Multifamily Dwellings not over 3 stories.

Even with that Amendment (334.10), inspectors...upon finding NM cable in a residence will go out of their way to nitpick every single thing you've installed. The preferred wiring method is AC or MC cable. 

Fact of the matter is...here in NYC we are groomed from the beginning to use BX (AC) cable. We've found that we're much more proficient in it than with NM cable. Anyone who's done residential knows...it's a completely different animal than commercial. Try to get commercial electricians to pull thousands of feet of NM in a home with wooden studs will get you two things...

A lot of messed up NM cable...

and

A lot of frustrated electricians wondering WTF happened!

On jobs like residential...where the margin for profit vs loss is SO tight...it's not worth it to use NM. Sure the cost is a bit lower, but you loose a lot more in installation. Unless of course you do this all the time with men who are used to doing this all the time. 

Besides...we have a LOT more high rise residential buildings than single family homes in the 5 Boroughs of NYC.

Here we only use NM Cable for temporary light and power on construction sites.


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