# res landscape lighting



## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

im a commercial electrician, i have put in alot of landscape lighting but it was 277 and each fixture had its own transformer. 
now a friend of mine asked me to change some of the fixtures in her yard. the system consists of a transformer/timer mounted outside and a cable(looks like a tv cord) running underground feeding the lights. its fed from an outside recepticle which is fed by a gfci in the garage wired line and load(which is a big no no where i come from) anyway so i replaced the broken fixtures and set the clock and now its tripping the gfi in the garage. im kinda stumped because there is no ground going to the fixtures to trip the gfi. i opened up the outside recepticle and its dry as a bone and the transformer is dry inside as well. well as far as i know the lights have not worked in years but ofcoarse i was the last to work on it so its my fault even though all i did was change the fixtures, which are working fine when the gfi is not tripped.
anyway i replaced the gfi in the garage but i dont know if it will fix the problem or not. any ideas why its tripping the gfi or how to go about fixing this pos? im almost to the point of ripping all the cable out of the ground and running conduit and moving the transformer in the garage without gfi protection.
its a 400,000 dollar house! im sure the system had to work properly at one time i just need to find the problem right?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

You own a megger? :whistling2:


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

lol of coarse not. the only times i have ever used one is to check 500 or larger feeders.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrolover said:


> lol of coarse not. the only times i have ever used one is to check 500 or larger feeders.



I'm sure you're capable of solving this problem. It's not a 'residential' problem, it's an electrical problem.

Put on your troubleshooting hat and forget about 'residential'.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

$400,000 house?
New cable and repaired or replace the fixtures. 
One the LV cable gets nicked enough it will trip the GFI now and then and become a general pain in the a$$.


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

the thing i dont get is how its tripping the gfi. that low voltage cable has no ground. the gfi is only going to trip when voltage hits the ground. so if the cable is nicked and letting current go from pos to neg the transformer would have to be dumping the over current on the ground right?

i didnt replace the cable. just the fixtures btw


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrolover said:


> the thing i dont get is how its tripping the gfi. that low voltage cable has no ground. the gfi is only going to trip when voltage hits the ground. so if the cable is nicked and letting current go from pos to neg the transformer would have to be dumping the over current on the ground right?
> 
> i didnt replace the cable. just the fixtures btw


Divide and conquer, then.

Find the (roughly) center of the circuit, and take it apart. Does the GFCI still trip?

If so, start working towards it. If not, work away from it.

This is troubleshooting 101.​


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm assuming you disconnected the load side of the transformer to make sure it was not the problem, right?

There is no easy answer. Like other said, divide/conquer.


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

its an intermittent problem. it never trips while im there so i got nothing to work with. the home owner said that it was fine before the snow we have been getting started melting. i ran it for 2 hrs while i was there and no problems but it has not been raining lately.

of coarse i know the place to start is the middle of the circuit but like i said its not tripping the breaker only the gfi. 

unhooking it from the transformer load side is a good idea. ill try it if/when it trips out again.

i have a feeling i going to end up digging a trench and piping this sucker out setting cantex boxes for my terminations. ugh what a head ache


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

electrolover said:


> its an intermittent problem. it never trips while im there so i got nothing to work with. the home owner said that it was fine before the snow we have been getting started melting. i ran it for 2 hrs while i was there and no problems but it has not been raining lately.
> 
> of coarse i know the place to start is the middle of the circuit but like i said its not tripping the breaker only the gfi.
> 
> ...


Jobs for friends and family are always the biggest PITA!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The problem is probably the gfci or the transformer itself. I would bet the trany is the problem. The load side of the trany will not trip the gfci.


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## psbmt (Jun 24, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The problem is probably the gfci or the transformer itself. I would bet the trany is the problem. The load side of the trany will not trip the gfci.


I think Dennis is right, plug a drill in the recpt. If the GFCI holds, then it must be the transformer, I think the clock motor is 120 volts....


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The problem is probably the gfci or the transformer itself. I would bet the trany is the problem. The load side of the trany will not trip the gfci.



thats kinda what i was thinking. i dont know how the load side will trip it without a ground. i did replace the gfci so i guess its just a waiting game now. next time i guess ill unhook the load from the transformer and see what happens. it would be nice and easy to just replace the old transformer!!

it kinda sux because these folks live in frisco which is about a hour drive from me. next time a friend asks for help im giving them the finger :laughing:.

they also wanted a rot-iron gate hung on their wall in the living room 20 feet up. it was a pain but i got it. hung it on strut with 1 in strut straps :thumbsup: it aint falling off lol


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

electrolover said:


> thats kinda what i was thinking. i dont know how the load side will trip it without a ground. i did replace the gfci so i guess its just a waiting game now. next time i guess ill unhook the load from the transformer and see what happens. it would be nice and easy to just replace the old transformer!!
> 
> it kinda sux because these folks live in frisco which is about a hour drive from me. next time a friend asks for help im giving them the finger :laughing:.
> 
> they also wanted a rot-iron gate hung on their wall in the living room 20 feet up. it was a pain but i got it. hung it on strut with 1 in strut straps :thumbsup: it aint falling off lol



Rot-iron?...... oh, wrought-iron! Had to think about that one! Is it electrically operated?:laughing::jester:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> Rot-iron?...... oh, wrought-iron!


If it was 'rot' iron it would no longer be a gate. :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

psbmt said:


> I think Dennis is right, plug a drill in the recpt. If the GFCI holds, then it must be the transformer, I think the clock motor is 120 volts....


Of course I am right you dipstick. Haven't I taught you anything.

PS PSBMT is a friend of mine and was a former employee. Now the truth will come out about me. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> .............PS PSBMT is a friend of mine and was a former employee. Now the truth will come out about me. :laughing:


That you're really a 78-year-old great grandmother who likes 18th-century French cooking?:laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That you're really a 78-year-old great grandmother who likes 18th-century French cooking?:laughing:


He told you already. Damn


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## EnviroElectric (Feb 19, 2011)

Electrolover,

This being my first post, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. You have mentioned twice that there is no ground. A gfci does not read the ground, it measures between the hot and neutral. If the circuit is fed off the gfci recept, then simply disconnect it, pigtail out the wires in the box and connect it to the line side.


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

EnviroElectric said:


> Electrolover,
> 
> This being my first post, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. You have mentioned twice that there is no ground. A gfci does not read the ground, it measures between the hot and neutral. If the circuit is fed off the gfci recept, then simply disconnect it, pigtail out the wires in the box and connect it to the line side.



no offense but i think you are confusing GROUND fault circuit interrupter with arc fault circuit interupter


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

electrolover said:


> no offense but i think you are confusing GROUND fault circuit interrupter with arc fault circuit interupter


I think you are confused. A gfci does not need an egc to operate effectively.


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## EnviroElectric (Feb 19, 2011)

electrolover said:


> no offense but i think you are confusing GROUND fault circuit interrupter with arc fault circuit interupter


Maybe you should take a minute and look up how a GFCI operates. It measures between HOT and NEUTRAL.


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

well i have never researched it but when you touch one side of your meter in the hot and one to ground it trips. if you bridge the hot and neutral it trips the breaker and not the button. 

now i have seen them in an old house with out a ground and if you touched hot to ground they will trip. im thinking it doesnt take current to work it just needs voltage.

with out a grounded plug on your devise or tool, like a toaster for example you can drop it in water and the gfi will not trip. 
so im quite sure you dont need a ground wire to the recepticle for it to work but you need one on the cord plugged in for it to work. 

how would it detect a ground fault if nothing is there to conduct voltage to the ground prong


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

EnviroElectric said:


> Maybe you should take a minute and look up how a GFCI operates. It measures between HOT and NEUTRAL.


im not going to argue theory with ya. like i said your describing an arc fault

thanks for the advise on checking the transformer guys.


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## EnviroElectric (Feb 19, 2011)

A Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) is a device to protect against electric shock should someone come in contact with a live (Hot) wire and a path to ground which would result in a current through his/her body. The GFCI operates by sensing the difference between the currents in the Hot and Neutral conductors. Under normal conditions, these should be equal. However, if someone touches the Hot and a Ground such as a plumbing fixture or they are standing in water, these currents will not be equal as the path is to Ground - a ground fault - and not to the Neutral. This might occur if a short circuit developed inside an ungrounded appliance or if someone was working on a live circuit and accidentally touched a live wire.


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## EnviroElectric (Feb 19, 2011)

There is no reason to argue theory. You are wrong. End of story.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrolover said:


> .......... im thinking it doesnt take current to work it just needs voltage.............


Incorrect. It needs current to flow to operate. It uses voltage, just like any other machine, but it's measuring current to detect ground faults.

Let's take a standard GFCI receptacle and take it apart. Inside you will find an electronics board (an IC to some of you), a sensor, and a contact. Since the innards of an actual GFCI are quite complicated, I'll use my crude drawing to make things (hopefully) a little more clear.







 



Now, let's plug in a power tool, with the assumption that the tool is safe to use.​ 






 

When you turn the drill on, it draws current through the entire ciruit.... the 'hot' and 'neutral' conductors both have the same amount of current flowing through them, only in opposite directions.​ 






 
Since the same amount of current is flowing through both the hot and neutral, they will cancel each other out and the sensor will detect 0.0 amps. If this sensor detects more than 0.005 amps (5mA), then the electronics picks this up and will open the contact, turning power off to the outlet.​ 
So let's do just that. Let's say there's a problem with the cord or the metal case of the drill (yea, I know, the drill looks like it's plastic, but let's pretend it's metal), and a ground fault exists between it and a ground. Now, current will flow through the hot, and to the ground fault. Let's say the fault current is 0.05 amps.​ 






 
The drill will still run properly, but part of the current it consumes does not return through the proper path (the neutral). Instead, it flows through the ground fault.​ 
The sensor will detect an imbalance of 0.05 amps, and the electronics will open the contact and turn of the power.​ 
This is the primary and sole function of GFCI protection. It is assumed a ground fault is going through a human being and turn the power off. Only when the fault is removed will the ability to restore power with the 'Reset' button work. The GFCI does not care whether there actually is a human getting shocked or not. It could be the end of a cord is lying in a puddle of water. It could be a fault the operator of the drill is not a part of. Nonetheless, once more than 0.005 amps flows through a ground fault, the GFCI opens.​ 
Now, in order to test a GFCI receptacle, the manufacturers put in a handy-dandy Test button. What this test button does is create a small current flow (using a resistor to simulate a load with a ground fault) that intentionally bypasses part of the sensor, forcing it to sense that imbalance. If the GFCI sensor, contact, and electronics are functioning properly the power will be shut off.​ 






 


Now, up until this point, you will notice the 'Ground' wire has not been mentioned, nor has any current flowed along it. Point is, none needs to. The ground wire is there to open the breaker or fuse if there is a fault _within_ the wiring beyond the receptacle. If the drill was shorted internally, then the ground would carry enough current to cause the breaker or fuse to open and turn off the power. _The ground wire is for the operation of the breaker or fuse,_ NOT the GFCI. If no ground wire existed to feed this receptacle, the GFCI will still function as designed...... sensing imbalances and turning power off in a ground-fault situation.​ 
The only function a ground wire has in the operation of a GFCI is when a plug-in tester is used to test a GFCI.* One important note here; the industry standard is to use only the built-in Test button to check for proper function. UL does not recognize using plug-in testers as a proper method of testing GFCIs.*​ 
*







*​ 

With a properly-wired (3-wire) GFCI receptacle, the only way a plug-in tester can safely simulate an imbalance is to induce it through the ground. It has to, since it cannot bypass the sensor using the neutral. If you placed the resistor between the hot and neutral, the GFCI would only 'see' it as any other load, as the current flow between the hot and neutral would be equal and cancel each other out at the sensor.​ 
With the plug-in tester, the current flows out through the hot, and back through the ground. Since current flow on the ground is not going through the sensor, only the current on the hot is detected. With no opposing return current flow to balance it out, the electronics assume a ground fault and opens the contact... turning power off.​ 

If you only have a 2-wire (ungrounded) circuit, then the plug-in tester cannot create a current flow on the ground as the ground is not there. Since no current can flow in this incomplete circuit, the GFCI will sense 0.0 flow and not open the contact.​ 






 

There are other things today's GFCIs do that are not relevant to the discussion here, but I'll mention them here.​ 
One is Loss of Neutral. The electronics can sense the loss of the circuit's neutral, and will open the contact. The reason being, if there is no neutral, the electronics cannot fuction in order to open the contact in the event of a ground fault. So if the neutral feeding the circuit opens, the GFCI will turn the power off.​ 
Another is a self-test function. If the internal wiring of the GFCI becomes damaged (either physically or, say, a surge due to lighting), the power will shut off as well. Pushing the Reset button will not reset it.... it will stay off and need to be replaced.​ 
Another important function is Line-Load and Hot/Neutral Miswire detection. If the power to the receptacle is mistakenly attached to the Load terminals, or if the hot and neutral are reversed on the Line terminals, the GFCI will detect these installation errors as well and will not turn on until the problem(s) is (are) corrected. This is to ensure the GFCI is wired correctly at initial install to provide proper protection for the life of the unit.​ 
Most GFCI receptacles today are also Tamper-Resistant (notice the TR on the face) to keep foreign objects from being pushed into the slots, and GFCIs are available in Weather-Resistant versions for installation in damp and wet locations.​


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## electrolover (Feb 12, 2011)

EnviroElectric said:


> There is no reason to argue theory. You are wrong. End of story.



well **** you then sanfran ***. you are full of **** moron romex jerker. you dont even know how a gfi works! if its like you say plug a toaster in and drop in the tub with your boyfriend and see if he frys.

piece bitches im out.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Really nice work there Hackwagon. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electrolover said:


> well **** you then sanfran ***. you are full of **** moron romex jerker. you dont even know how a gfi works! if its like you say plug a toaster in and drop in the tub with your boyfriend and see if he frys.
> 
> piece bitches im out.



Drop one in your own tub, and I'll betcha a dollar it doesn't trip the GFCI either.

Now you can take a chill pill.


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## EnviroElectric (Feb 19, 2011)

electrolover said:


> well **** you then sanfran ***. you are full of **** moron romex jerker. you dont even know how a gfi works! if its like you say plug a toaster in and drop in the tub with your boyfriend and see if he frys.
> 
> piece bitches im out.


Wow. Jeez, actually, I am from Seattle and began as a commercial electrician. I have since relocated to the Sf bay area and started my own shop. I guess that makes me a ***. Fair enough buddy, I have been called far worse by people working for me. All the little baby name calling in the world won't take away the fact that you are wrong. Lol. Take a chill pill and google gfcis. Don't act like a little crybaby just because you were wrong. It happens all the time. TAKE ADVISE. you will learn and be better for it. Don't be so confrontational.


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## administr8tor (Mar 6, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Drop one in your own tub, and I'll betcha a dollar it doesn't trip the GFCI either.
> 
> Now you can take a chill pill.



:lol::lol::lol::lol: maybe that will make his brain work:whistling2:


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