# Panel build estimates



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

We have completed numerous MCC modifications.
We were invited to bid a series of Panels that include all customer supplied materials.
I have no idea how to estimate the layout and wiring in such a concentrated amount of components.
The panels each have 4 drives, overload protection and both an intranet and internet and all of the overload and controls.
Do you guys have a per drive price or a per component price you use to bid?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Hire a panel builder to do it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> Hire a panel builder to do it.


I was hoping for someone sober and professional to reply.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> I was hoping for someone sober and professional to reply.


You did say this:




> I have no idea how to estimate the layout and wiring in such a concentrated amount of components


Sometimes it's better to sub out work to someone who can do it in a fraction of the amount of time.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Are you a UL508 shop?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I think he means no idea how to estimate the charge for the work, not no idea on how to do the work.

I'd say look at it as if you're going to supply all equipment with normal markup, come to a total bid price, subtract cost of equipment, and there's your number. With him supplying equipment you're still on the hook if you destroy it so you should get your normal markup. If they're not willing to cover that premium or if someone else is willing to do the work without getting that premium, so be it.

Am I understanding your situation?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Cow said:


> Are you a UL508 shop?


If you are just assembling customer supplied components according to the customer's design on the customer's premises, would you have to be? Asking for a friend.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MikeFL said:


> I think he means no idea how to estimate the charge for the work, not no idea on how to do the work.
> 
> I'd say look at it as if you're going to supply all equipment with normal markup, come to a total bid price, subtract cost of equipment, and there's your number. With him supplying equipment you're still on the hook if you destroy it so you should get your normal markup. If they're not willing to cover that premium or if someone else is willing to do the work without getting that premium, so be it.
> 
> Am I understanding your situation?


Yes.
They want to hire us at a daily rate to assemble the panelboards.
The client is more into engineering and normally builds them in house. They are a UL shop. I specifically asked.
The engineers typically design and then build them but now have a multi-national program to roll out and are going to be buried for a couple of years planing their modifications to existing plants and taking care of startup. 
We are only supplying an electrician to screw down some Dinn rail and Panduit and wire/ label according to their layout and wiring diagram.
I have trouble looking at this type of work thinking it will only take a few days where the client is thinking 2 weeks.
I'm sure the first time evolution will take at least 1/3 longer than the subsequent panels. 
It's nice inside work during the summer, almost irresistible considering a 107 heat index the last few days. 

I don't want to sell us short by asking for 6k if others can demand 12k, the components, sans the drives, are dirt cheap if you buy at a SH or even cheaper at Automation Direct.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I never thought about it but I guess panel shops must have their labor estimating very cut and dried. It wouldn't be hard to come up with flat rate prices for various components. It's got to be a lot more predictable to flat rate than electrical construction. 

If you have to estimate something outside your wheelhouse, you might have to pick the closest thing in your wheelhouse, that you do know your cost on, and base your estimate on that. 

To my thinking it does kind of come down to a cost per terminal. For example if a 42 circuit breaker panel has a similar number of terminals to these panels, maybe you base your bid on twice or more like triple that cost to build that control panel. Triple because 

wire routing is much more difficult 
you have to check the print for every single wire 
there's not a bunch of wires that all go to neutral and ground bars 
it's more specialized work, supply / demand 
uncertainty, you have to bid higher when you're not sure

(I am of course assuming the design is all done by the customer.)


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

A good point to consider the double and triple checks on the terminations. 
I'm a bit concerned with ergonomics of leaning over a table for a couple of weeks. Typically the work in the field is front facing and changes from sitting/ standing and even working on a ladder in 8' cabinets. 
This is a nice customer that pays in direct deposit with 3 days of invoicing. That I like. 
I don't think we can get screwed but, need to make the company money. Decent money. :biggrin:

The guy I have in mind is a 3rd year and costs me about $45 per hour, I like to get $96 to $136 per hour but due to the long term situation, I'm pricing it like job labor and using $81 as a daily hourly rate. 
I'm now concerned about what I will make at the 100 hour mark.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> I'm a bit concerned with ergonomics of leaning over a table for a couple of weeks. Typically the work in the field is front facing and changes from sitting/ standing and even working on a ladder in 8' cabinets.


There's a lot of options, you can stand them up on the bench while working on them, tilt the table like a drafting table, wall mount them, etc. 

You sent them down a sewer a couple weeks ago, I wouldn't worry too much about the ergonomics of working at a table in air conditioned splendor. 

Buy them a Keurig and fill the refrigerator with girly flavored creamers, it will take a swat team to get them out of that shop when you're done with this job.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

splatz said:


> If you are just assembling customer supplied components according to the customer's design on the customer's premises, would you have to be? Asking for a friend.


The electrical inspector isn't going to care who assembled the industrial control panel as long as it has a UL sticker on it.

You know if the scenario you mentioned was the case, everyone would just say the customer supplied it all to try and get out of it.

We used to have a customer bring us an enclosure and parts, we'd assemble it, create a wiring diagram, and install a UL sticker. He'd only have us do all that just so we'd have an incentive to UL it for him. He obviously knew how to do all the work himself, but he wasn't a 508 shop.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I've built tons of panels but I work for a contractor so I don't know how to estimate costs. 

One thing I do know about the cost of building panels is it'll take WAY more time than you'd think. It seems easy and fast to simply screw stuff to the backboard and hook it up but by the time it's done, you'd be surprised at the amount of time it took. 

One thing that'll save a bunch of time is using the right type of wire. Most guys will use basic standard THHN or TFFN. This wire has a pretty good 'memory' and tends to revert back to its original curve when it came off the spool. You can make it look good but it'll take a ton of time. 

MTW is a bit more $$$ but it doesn't have a memory and forms easier. You'll more than make up the extra cost in time savings.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I am not 100% clear on your ask.

At first it sounds like you are bidding on (labour only) each panel build. Later on you indicate that it is a daily rate for a guy to work in a shop.

Option #1 is a little tougher because it will get faster as you go or you can "assembly line" parts of it to save costs. As an example if you are going to be build 10 of "X" type of box, you can get the back plates laid out, drilled and tapped all at once, you can cut and clean all you duct at once, etc.

Option #2 is easy, because you are not going to charge less then a full day for anything, so you provide a daily rate and you give them a 30, 60 or 90 day option (whatever length of time they want). The issue with option #2 is that you always have to supply somebody; if your guy is sick, wants holidays, gets hurt, etc; you are now a "staffing company" and not an electrical contractor so to speak.

So for option #2, you need to be two deep, maybe three and if your guy quits on Friday you need to have another guy ready on Monday.

Cheers
John


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

micromind said:


> I've built tons of panels but I work for a contractor so I don't know how to estimate costs.
> 
> One thing I do know about the cost of building panels is it'll take WAY more time than you'd think. It seems easy and fast to simply screw stuff to the backboard and hook it up but by the time it's done, you'd be surprised at the amount of time it took.
> 
> ...


It looks like they have spools of MTW hanging on the wall.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> I am not 100% clear on your ask.
> 
> At first it sounds like you are bidding on (labour only) each panel build. Later on you indicate that it is a daily rate for a guy to work in a shop.
> 
> ...


They asked for a daily rate. I'm not overly concerned with attendance. I can certainly put in a day or have someone else cover. I am always concerned when a customer has to have a number. I know it's just for them to issue a PO against. But I see a pile of crap to organize and assemble. They see it all on paper and build them part-time when they have spare time,


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Southeast Power said:


> *A good point to consider the double and triple checks on the terminations. *
> I'm a bit concerned with ergonomics of leaning over a table for a couple of weeks. Typically the work in the field is front facing and changes from sitting/ standing and even working on a ladder in 8' cabinets.
> This is a nice customer that pays in direct deposit with 3 days of invoicing. That I like.
> I don't think we can get screwed but, need to make the company money. Decent money. :biggrin:
> ...


We do custom panels for a customer that often needs 1 or needs 1 but orders 2. Not panels like you're talking about but panels nonetheless. Metal cabinet or plate, switches, indicator lights, harnesses & connectors, labeling, a maze of wiring, etc. Same thing you're looking at.

For each one there's considerable setup time. I'd imagine in a 508 shop some of that may be mitigated because they produce these things every day, but for each one there's still setup time. Then there's the time to make the first one. If you had to make 10, it would take you 4x as long, or longer, to make the first one. Add that to your setup time and cleanup when you're done and a 90 minute task of assembly turns into a full day. Then on the 2nd day you can easily make 5-10 of them depending on complexity.

Sounds like you have a good relationship with this company. Also sounds like their engineers (costing them much more than $81/ hour) have more important things to do.

Will they let you just sell them hourly labor? That way you can give them the best rate, scale them up by sending more guys in if that's what they need and you can pull them out when they're not needed. Otherwise you need to bid it high enough to CYA on that "first panel" experience which takes so long. Not knowing how many of each they're going to want leaves the unknown which you will have to account for. 

Maybe on your guy's first day he makes one and does a real nice job. Then on the 2nd day he makes 4. Then maybe 6. It all depends on the panels and how much variation there is.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Well first off if your not member of a NTRL panel shop program then: You must build under article 409. You must use all NTRL listed components, that means all the din rail mount terminal blocks are a NO GO, along with any other recognized components. 

I'm a panel shop and electrical contractor, I bid by the termination for assembly, and by line/block for logic.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Southeast Power said:


> They asked for a daily rate. I'm not overly concerned with attendance. I can certainly put in a day or have someone else cover. I am always concerned when a customer has to have a number. I know it's just for them to issue a PO against. But I see a pile of crap to organize and assemble. They see it all on paper and build them part-time when they have spare time,


I am still not 100% on the ask...

OK if it is a daily rate, then give them a daily rate; but for them a daily rate does not have much value unless the guy can be there to learn and practice to build efficiencies into his work. If he is going to "pick away" at stuff part-time, he will never get good or fast at it and as @MikeFL says you will always be at the "setup" stage.

I am not sure a daily rate without some sort of performance indicator is valuable. I think that is why you need a week or a month rate. One off panels will kill the efficiency rate even if they are the same panel over and over.

Cheers
John


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Southeast Power said:


> They asked for a daily rate. I'm not overly concerned with attendance. I can certainly put in a day or have someone else cover. *I am always concerned when a customer has to have a number.* I know it's just for them to issue a PO against. But I see a pile of crap to organize and assemble. They see it all on paper and build them part-time when they have spare time,


I am always concerned when a customer doesn't care to know a number.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> I am still not 100% on the ask...
> 
> OK if it is a daily rate, then give them a daily rate; but for them a daily rate does not have much value unless the guy can be there to learn and practice to build efficiencies into his work. If he is going to "pick away" at stuff part-time, he will never get good or fast at it and as @MikeFL says you will always be at the "setup" stage.
> 
> ...


John,
All of the builds will only differ in the number and capacity of the mixer motors. I suspect the communication, power and the control components will be pretty much standard with the power side scaling up or down due to the number of drives.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

tates1882 said:


> You must use all NTRL listed components, that means all the din rail mount terminal blocks are a NO GO



I admit I never actually thought about it with reputable brands but I just checked the last ones I bought, AutomationDirect DINnectors are UL listed - why no go?


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

splatz said:


> I admit I never actually thought about it with reputable brands but I just checked the last ones I bought, AutomationDirect DINnectors are UL listed - why no go?


Sorry may have mis spoke, I could have swore that art.409 required listed components to be used. Depending on the voltage at said din rail terminals they may not have the correct spacing according to table 430.97D 

Edit: I was correct recognized components aren't suppose to be field installed unless certified in the end by NTRL. https://legacy-uploads.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ul_RecognizedComponentMarks.pdf


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

You need to get a parts list and get it quoted. for cheaper components i always budget for and order extra. Leave spare parts with customer

Allen Bradley stuff is very expensive if you go that route but 

I use typically use https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/home/home

you can go down and by everything you need for panels except name brand drives. I like TECO westinhouse drive....they are reasonable in price...

Don't forget the back panel is separate. Some of those boxes are expensive....go bigger than you thing you need....someone always forgets about a motor or set of relays needed.


I stick with fuse holders...alot of them mini circuit breakers are not rated for more that 10 KIA. 

For the run of the mill panel 4' x 6' box I budget 60-80 hours build time. Plan on terminal blocking every component in the panel in a terminal block at top or bottom of panel(I prefer bottom).


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Tonedeaf said:


> For the run of the mill panel 4' x 6' box I budget 60-80 hours build time. *Plan on terminal blocking every component in the panel in a terminal block at top or bottom of panel(I prefer bottom).*


I am curious, are a lot of shops doing it that way, is it considered a best practice? It always made sense to me, it's going to be more blocks, more terminations, and more space, but probably easier to troubleshoot and less prone to miswires. 

Do you do the same thing with a block for all the field wiring?


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

the first real panel we build was about 10 years ago....I made the mistake of no terminal blocking all the motor drive wires.....once the panel is in the field its a harder to remove all the plastic gutter covers....much easier to goto terminal blocks. I do alternate color terminals...every drive or relay i change colors and mark makes hook up much easier in the field and i mark every block too. I'll find a pic of the last one we did and post.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

This was a conveyor panel...with drives and had some relay controls for two Bosch robots...no PLC


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

splatz said:


> I am curious, are a lot of shops doing it that way, is it considered a best practice? It always made sense to me, it's going to be more blocks, more terminations, and more space, but probably easier to troubleshoot and less prone to miswires.
> 
> Do you do the same thing with a block for all the field wiring?


For all the stuff I have done over the years, I have always used TBs also. My experience, as I am sure it is with many, when you have to in and troubleshoot or replace components it is much,much easier.

Also another thing I did was as much as possible was to plan on home running all the sensors / switches where possible during the field installation. This allowed for easy connection (usually in series) to troubleshoot from one location. This approach adds a lot of TBs to a panel; in some cases we had a panel just for termination of field devices and then "cross-connected" them to the control panel.

This also adds a lot of clutter when you are installing isolation relays ahead and behind the PLC... it is easy for these to get out of hand too!

Cheers
John


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Tonedeaf said:


> This was a conveyor panel...with drives and had some relay controls for two Bosch robots...no PLC


Pretty sure you don't have the required 3/8" spacing on those terminal blocks for the voltage involved. Referencing the last pic. 


splatz said:


> I am curious, are a lot of shops doing it that way, is it considered a best practice? It always made sense to me, it's going to be more blocks, more terminations, and more space, but probably easier to troubleshoot and less prone to miswires.
> 
> Do you do the same thing with a block for all the field wiring?


Nope, I only use TB for control devices. Any motor leads go directly to either the starter or VFD, and power connections go directly to their OCPD or UL listed power distribution blocks.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

tates1882 said:


> Pretty sure you don't have the required 3/8" spacing on those terminal blocks for the voltage involved. Referencing the last pic.
> 
> .


they are 600V 30a rated blocks for fractional HP motor the spacing is the same as the terminals coming off the TECO drives. I don't see any issue here...I have wired ton's of control panels from OEM's same style of terminals


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Tonedeaf said:


> This was a conveyor panel...with drives and had some relay controls for two Bosch robots...no PLC


Are those fuses all 480? I just noticed those open fuses. The last one we installed was the type that pulls open to expose the fuse.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

tates1882 said:


> I only use TB for control devices. Any motor leads go directly to either the starter or VFD, and power connections go directly to their OCPD or UL listed power distribution blocks.


Same here. I use terminal blocks for 120 and lower. 

I use the flip-out type fuse holders instead of fuse blocks, sometimes I'll use DIN rail mount breakers though but you need to be careful with AIC when using breakers.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Southeast Power said:


> Are those fuses all 480? I just noticed those open fuses. The last one we installed was the type that pulls open to expose the fuse.


They are 480V...I put plastic cover on them....I like the pull out ones too....I was using up old stock i have 10 boxes on these 3 pole holders


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## sparkiez (Aug 1, 2015)

Do you have to bid all based on their plans or can you just come up with a T&M rate due to the fact that they have so much going on? Then you can just keep someone on site until the job is done, and if there are performance issues they can be addressed.


It is pretty difficult to bid the build time for a panel unless you make a crap-ton of them.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

sparkiez said:


> Do you have to bid all based on their plans or can you just come up with a T&M rate due to the fact that they have so much going on? Then you can just keep someone on site until the job is done, and if there are performance issues they can be addressed.
> 
> 
> It is pretty difficult to bid the build time for a panel unless you make a crap-ton of them.


We have one "day rate" if they call us out. 
I'm going to flat rate them per device and per termination if it works out.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

First evolution about 32 man-hours:










We should have enough data to quote a per unit price.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> First evolution about 32 man-hours:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


32hrs seems reasonable, that's the number that popped into my head when I looked at the picture before reading.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

this is a 3 year old thread 

@Southeast Power how did this situation end up working out for you?

Im curious if you ended up leaving more space at the bottom of the panel? We generally try to come into the bottom as we are working in food plants and the panels end up covered in muck, so having panduit right at the bottom of the back plate makes it difficult to come in with the cables unless you come in, in front of the panduit, which looks goofy


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