# elevator machine room true earth grounding



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Sounds good to me if the feeder to the elevator equipment is also properly grounded and this one is just supplemental.

If there are job specs and you want to be a **** you could thumb through them and see if it means that much to you. 

Good luck getting reliable power to your temp winch if you pull that on my job.


----------



## Nick0danger (Aug 19, 2012)

in canada it sounds like it would be fine, would have to see it to be sure


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

walkerj said:


> Sounds good to me if the feeder to the elevator equipment is also properly grounded and this one is just supplemental.
> 
> If there are job specs and you want to be a **** you could thumb through them and see if it means that much to you.
> 
> Good luck getting reliable power to your temp winch if you pull that on my job.





Nick0danger said:


> in canada it sounds like it would be fine, would have to see it to be sure



If it is a temp setup, could be ok....but if it is the permanent installation you guys are way off base. :laughing:


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

mxslick said:


> If it is a temp setup, could be ok....but if it is the permanent installation you guys are way off base. :laughing:


So you can't run a supplemental ground outside of conduit?

Maybe I misunderstand what he is needing?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Mx, I don't think he's talking about the feeder, I think he's talking about a GEC. 

It may not be pretty, but it may be compliant.


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

This is the ground for the feeder. This building was built in the 40's so the original feeder was just grounded via the conduit. They just hung a new disco on the old conduit and are pulling this new 4awg through a Romex fitting. 

Not trying to be a **** about anything, just want to see that its legal because I'm the only one who cares.


----------



## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

hibrid said:


> This is the ground for the feeder. This building was built in the 40's so the original feeder was just grounded via the conduit. They just hung a new disco on the old conduit and are pulling this new 4awg through a Romex fitting.
> 
> Not trying to be a **** about anything, just want to see that its legal because I'm the only one who cares.


Well then that is kinda jacked up


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

hibrid said:


> This is the ground for the feeder. This building was built in the 40's so the original feeder was just grounded via the conduit. They just hung a new disco on the old conduit and are pulling this new 4awg through a Romex fitting.
> 
> Not trying to be a **** about anything, just want to see that its legal because I'm the only one who cares.


If they are running the new ground to serve as an equipment grounding conductor because the original conduit EGC is no longer suitable or has lost continuity then the free-air mickey mouse stuff is not legit. If it's simply an earth connection, then it's tentatively okay, but "neat and workmanlike" is still enforceable text in the NEC.


----------



## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

Well weres the electrical permit and inspector on this job ?

And weres the elevator state inspector ?

When they come out problem solved .


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

Hmm. Not sure on the original conduit continuity or that it was ever earth grounded to begin with, I will look into it. Unfortunately, the spec is so vague, and this is technically an earth connection. Just the application, especially in a mechanical space, seems wrong to me.


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

piperunner said:


> Well weres the electrical permit and inspector on this job ?
> 
> And weres the elevator state inspector ?
> 
> When they come out problem solved .


Correct, trying to resolve this before they come for inspections. My company gets to pay damages if we go past deadline, and my company hired these idiots.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Can you define "true earth grounding"? It sounds like you are asking for what the NEC (incorrectly) calls an "isolated ground". If that is the case, the isolated grounding conductor must be run with the circuit conductors.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Isn't the term _true earth grounding_ is somewhat an nec misnomer? On one hand the nec propmtly insists on an ohmic value, otoh that it's not a conductor....

~CS~


----------



## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

walkerj said:


> So you can't run a supplemental ground outside of conduit?
> 
> Maybe I misunderstand what he is needing?


Yeah I had to re-read it a few times also. But yes, you cannot run a supplemental EGC outside of the conduit. 



Big John said:


> Mx, I don't think he's talking about the feeder, I think he's talking about a GEC.
> 
> It may not be pretty, but it may be compliant.


I had to re-read because I thought he was talking about the feeder.

EGC I understand to be a no-go. A GEC? Maybe.......



erics37 said:


> If they are running the new ground to serve as an equipment grounding conductor because the original conduit EGC is no longer suitable or has lost continuity then the free-air mickey mouse stuff is not legit. If it's simply an earth connection, then it's tentatively okay, but "neat and workmanlike" is still enforceable text in the NEC.


Yep.


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

Not sure on the difference between EGC and GEC? 

So the original feeder is grounded via the conduit run and the conduit is bonded to building ground in the main feeder room.....not sure on continuity.

I guess the NEC definition of earth grounding would be handy.


----------



## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm wondering if what the engineer meant by earth ground was just simply they wanted a true EGC ran with the feeder so as to eliminate using the old conduit as a ground. I've done a few elevator machine rooms, I've never heard of an elevator controller or its disco needing a isolated ground or a GEC. I understand some crazy place could put in in the specs, but I think the electricians were over thinking, or should have had it clarified. If this is the case, what they did may be wrong.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hibrid said:


> This is the ground for the feeder. This building was built in the 40's so the original feeder was just grounded via the conduit.


Which is safe, code compliant and effective.

Are you one of those elevator guys that believes your equipment requires a copper grounding conductor to operate properly? 

As far as the code, it can't be an equipment grounding conductor if run outside the conduit.



> *300.3 Conductors.
> 
> (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit.* All conductors of
> the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
> ...


If it is a GEC conductor it may well be code compliant even without conduit.


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Which is safe, code compliant and effective.
> 
> Are you one of those elevator guys that believes your equipment requires a copper grounding conductor to operate properly?
> 
> ...


That clears things up....I think

I know our controllers are fine without an actual copper ground wire and have seen it many times, its just in the specs to be there. I've just never seen a grounded conductor outside of conduit in any machine room. Frankly, had they just ran a 3/4 EMT across the wall of the machine room to the disco instead of just the wire at an oblique angle, I probably wouldn't question it.


----------



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

One end of the #4 terminates in your disco and the other end terminates where?


----------



## hibrid (Jan 21, 2011)

Supposedly the building ground in main feeder room.....haven't physically traced it myself


Edit. This same ground goes through another machine room that has two more elevators that we are modernizing after this one. There is a loop coiled up that will be tied in when the other disconnects are replaced.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

"True earth grounding" 


If that doesn't sound like a truck load of BS dreamed up by some engineer I don't know what does. :laughing:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It really does open pandora's symantic box ....._rare earth ground.......flat earth ground_......is there an EE in the house ? :jester:~CS~


----------



## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Thus sayeth the book of enger.

In order to acheive the oft sought after "true" earth ground (or traditionaly nordic ground) the rod must be of silver cast upon a winter solstice. Thence hammered into the earth with a hammer once forged quenched in the tears of 15 virgins. Uppon the rods entombment the ground shall be salted by the blood of a 4th year apprentice.


----------



## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> It really does open pandora's symantic box ....._rare earth ground.......flat earth ground_......is there an EE in the house ? :jester:~CS~


 
:laughing::laughing:


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Ultrafault said:


> Thus sayeth the book of enger.
> 
> In order to acheive the oft sought after "true" earth ground (or traditionaly nordic ground) the rod must be of silver cast upon a winter solstice. Thence hammered into the earth with a hammer once forged quenched in the tears of 15 virgins. Uppon the rods entombment the ground shall be salted by the blood of a 4th year apprentice.


Now that's how to drive a damn ground rod!


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Ultrafault said:


> Thus sayeth the book of enger.
> 
> In order to acheive the oft sought after "true" earth ground (or traditionaly nordic ground) the rod must be of silver cast upon a winter solstice. Thence hammered into the earth with a hammer once forged quenched in the tears of 15 virgins. Uppon the rods entombment the ground shall be salted by the blood of a 4th year apprentice.


I hereby crown thee, Chicken Steve II.



:thumbup: :laughing:


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Ultrafault said:


> Thus sayeth the book of enger.
> 
> In order to acheive the oft sought after "true" earth ground (or traditionaly nordic ground) the rod must be of silver cast upon a winter solstice. Thence hammered into the earth with a hammer once forged quenched in the tears of 15 virgins. Uppon the rods entombment the ground shall be salted by the blood of a 4th year apprentice.


I like this one


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Ultrafault said:


> Thus sayeth the book of enger.
> 
> In order to acheive the oft sought after "true" earth ground (or traditionaly nordic ground) the rod must be of silver cast upon a winter solstice. Thence hammered into the earth with a hammer once forged quenched in the tears of 15 virgins. Uppon the rods entombment the ground shall be salted by the blood of a 4th year apprentice.


 I'm afraid to ask what happens if it's not 25Ω or less....


----------



## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

hibrid said:


> Hello,
> 
> Also, our specs call for true earth grounding run to the disconnect.


And along with what the other posters have said, this is a complete waste of time, effort, money, and natural resources.

Roger


----------

