# Oops



## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

It's Saturday, and I get a call to go to a friends house to figure out why his pump equipment wont work. As I was troubleshooting the well pump I came across this scene.

Force the contacts for the well pump together
pump runs fine, draws 16 amps, 240v
Check the contacts for the aux stuff (chlorinator, filters, salt system, etc)
systems don't run, 0 volts at contacts
Check amp draw at sub panel (w/ systems off)
0 amps, 240 across mains, tests like a phase tied to neutral/ground, 3 wire feed
Check amp draw at main panel (w/ systems off)
10 amps on 1 leg, 0 on other, voltage correct

That's when i realized the neutral and ground weren't bonded (arc traces around the neutral bonding screw). As i put my screwdriver up to tighten it, a shower of sparks erupted and melted the head off the bonding screw. There was a 120v 10a potential between them. Oops. That's when I noticed the arc tracing around the locknut for the nipple to the meter can. I rechecked the voltages to ground instead of neutral and the results mimicked the sub panel problem.

The feeders leading to the pump house were damaged, connected, and bleeding current. When the gnd/neu were bonded, the added load of the bleed and the pump & systems would nuisance trip the breaker in the main panel. It all makes sense now I kept saying to myself. The main panel is in the laundry room and burned a ton of holes in a pile of clothes next to the panel. The laundry basket caught fire, we dragged it outside, hosed everything off. It was exciting.

Nevertheless, I fixed it for today by running some 10-3 romex in PVC conduit (cheaper than UF here) from the panel out to the building and running a #6 from the ground lug to the neutral bar.

Todays lesson: Never leave nice clothes any where near a panel your working on, just in case. Even if they're dirty. 

Just thought I'd share


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Romex in PVC is illegal. I would not be bragging about shotty troubleshooting, shotty repair, and almost burning my friends house down. But that's just me.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

idontknow said:


> Nevertheless, I fixed it for today by running some 10-3 romex in PVC conduit (cheaper than UF here) from the panel out to the building


Maybe "oops" again. You seem to say that you ran 10-3 NM/Romex underground in RNC/PVC and I believe that is a no no.
334.12 (B) (4) Wet location


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Romex in PVC is illegal.


No, it is not illegal. Please explain.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

wingz said:


> No, it is not illegal. Please explain.


Oh yeah, well try this ...............



> 300.9 Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade.
> Where raceways are installed in wet locations abovegrade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations abovegrade shall comply with 310.8(C)


.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

When you bury a pvc pipe, it condensates. All underground pvc is wet inside. I've heard guys claiming if you primer, then glue, it won't leak. THAT"S BULL. ALL UNDERGROUND PVC is wet inside. You installed wire rated for dry locations, in a wet location. The interioir or underground pvc is considered a damp location.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> When you bury a pvc pipe, it condensates. All underground pvc is wet inside. I've heard guys claiming if you primer, then glue, it won't leak. THAT"S BULL. ALL UNDERGROUND PVC is wet inside. You installed wire rated for dry locations, in a wet location. The interioir or underground pvc is considered a damp location.


You said "romex in PVC is illegal". This is not expressly true, although it is a contentious issue. 

Now, romex in PVC UNDERGROUND is a completly different story. That IS expressly forbidden.
PVC installed below grade IS a wet location no matter how you look at it. Trying to keep water out is futile and makes NO sense.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Oh yeah, well try this ...............
> 
> .


I understand this, I was replying to the statement "Romex in PVC is illegal." I did not mention wet location.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> *You said "romex in PVC is illegal". This is not expressly true, although it is a contentious issue. *
> 
> Now, romex in PVC UNDERGROUND is a completly different story. That IS expressly forbidden.
> PVC installed below grade IS a wet location no matter how you look at it. Trying to keep water out is futile and makes NO sense.


This is what I was referring to.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

wingz said:


> I understand this, I was replying to the statement "Romex in PVC is illegal." I did not mention wet location.


I'm sorry I thought it was understood to be outside since the OP mentioned that. PVC is Okay in conduit indoors but fill must be considered if it is a complatet raceway.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> You said "romex in PVC is illegal". This is not expressly true, although it is a contentious issue.
> 
> Now, romex in PVC UNDERGROUND is a completely different story. That IS expressly forbidden.
> PVC installed below grade IS a wet location no matter how you look at it. Trying to keep water out is futile and makes NO sense.


Also NM installed inside a raceway located in a wet location (like outside above ground) is also a violation.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Also NM installed inside a raceway located in a wet location (like outside above ground) is also a violation.


That's how I see it also. Seems pretty clear in the bove article mentioned


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I'm sorry I thought it was understood to be outside since the OP mentioned that. PVC is Okay in conduit indoors but fill must be considered if it is a complatet raceway.


No need to apoligize, I appreciate your response. I already stated to the OP that he cannot run NM in a wet location, see post 3, but the other guy made a blank statement regarding NM and PVC and I disagreed.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I would like to think, that when I'm replying to someone who said he ran romex UNDERGROUND in pvc, and I write him back and say romex in pvc is illegal, THAT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW I"M TALKING ABOUT HIS SITUATION,,,,,,,yes,,,,,I should have included "underground",,,,,in my sentence, but I'm not gonna write a full legal disclaimer with every response. It's ODVIOUS what we're taliking about here. STOP disecting peoples' sentences tht has noting to do with the subject at hand. OF COURSE romex in pvc indoors is fine!! WHY WOULDN"T IT BE?? I"m CLEARLY speaking of what he did was illegal.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I would like to think, that when I'm replying to someone who said he ran romex UNDERGROUND in pvc, and I write him back and say romex in pvc is illegal, THAT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW I"M TALKING ABOUT HIS SITUATION,,,,,,,yes,,,,,I should have included "underground",,,,,in my sentence, but I'm not gonna write a full legal disclaimer with every response. It's ODVIOUS what we're taliking about here. STOP disecting peoples' sentences tht has noting to do with the subject at hand. OF COURSE romex in pvc indoors is fine!! WHY WOULDN"T IT BE?? I"m CLEARLY speaking of what he did was illegal.



Ah ...... chill dude. :laughing:

It helps on these forums to be as specific as possible and do not assume that everyone can read your mind ........... or that they have even read every post in the thread.

As for "WHY WOULDN"T IT BE??" 

Many people believe it is a code violation to run cables in raceways.


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## seo (Oct 28, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> It helps on these forums to be as specific as possible and do not assume that everyone can read your mind ........... or that they have even read every post in the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I would like to think, that when I'm replying to someone who said he ran romex UNDERGROUND in pvc, and I write him back and say romex in pvc is illegal, THAT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW I"M TALKING ABOUT HIS SITUATION,,,,,,,yes,,,,,I should have included "underground",,,,,in my sentence, but I'm not gonna write a full legal disclaimer with every response. It's ODVIOUS what we're taliking about here. STOP disecting peoples' sentences tht has noting to do with the subject at hand. OF COURSE romex in pvc indoors is fine!! WHY WOULDN"T IT BE?? I"m CLEARLY speaking of what he did was illegal.


What's "ODVIOUS"


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Isn't in obvious what odvious is? Odvious is a synonym of obvious.:whistling2:


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

idontknow said:


> Nevertheless, I fixed it for *today* by running some 10-3 romex in PVC conduit (cheaper than UF here) from the panel out to the building and running a #6 from the ground lug to the neutral bar.



That was the solution for the day. You people can be brutal sometimes. It's ok though because I'm here to edumacate and entertain. We needed a solution to get his water working correctly that day (so he could do laundry) and accomplished it.

Did I mention that the PVC was laying on the ground? It is. He's got his kids digging the ditch and I'll retie it in at both ends as soon as they're done.

I bought the 10-3 back in 2007 before the codes were changed so can it be grandfathered in under 2005 codes? Oh yes it can and will! Oddly he lives in Glades county which is still locked on the 2002 codes.

Oh yeah, we had to sleeve whatever we used in PVC as the chickens would have eaten most anything else.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Also NM installed inside a raceway located in a wet location (like outside above ground) is also a violation.


:whistling2:...Yeah, you might burn your house down.:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

idontknow said:


> That was the solution for the day. You people can be brutal sometimes. It's ok though because I'm here to edumacate and entertain. We needed a solution to get his water working correctly that day (so he could do laundry) and accomplished it.
> 
> Did I mention that the PVC was laying on the ground? It is. He's got his kids digging the ditch and I'll retie it in at both ends as soon as they're done.
> 
> ...


The date you bought the material has nothing to do with it. It's the code cycle the inspectors are inspecting under.
This would not pas inspection under 2002 or 2005 or 2008


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

idontknow said:


> I bought the 10-3 back in 2007 before the codes were changed so can it be grandfathered in under 2005 codes? Oh yes it can and will!


Please tell me this was an attempt at humor.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I would like to think so,,,,,:whistling2:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Not to mention one roll of 10/3 lasting you almost 3 years?:no:


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't do many dryer updates on the side. Most of the other shed/workshop adds I do are either 12-2 or 6-3. Sadly not only has it lasted me this long, I still have half of the roll. I did use some of it once for a 3 wire traveler set for a closet light (luminaire). I guess that's what happens when you buy in bulk.

Yes that was humor.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

idontknow said:


> I don't do many dryer updates on the side. Most of the other shed/workshop adds I do are either 12-2 or 6-3. Sadly not only has it lasted me this long, I still have half of the roll. I did use some of it once for a 3 wire traveler set for a closet light (luminaire). I guess that's what happens when you buy in bulk.
> 
> Yes that was humor.


You mean to tell me you used 10/3 for a lighting circuit??


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You mean to tell me you used 10/3 for a lighting circuit??


I've ran into it. I went to put a dimmer in and could not believe it was a dead end 3 way wire in 10:blink: Apparently "thats all they had on the van". Ridiculous.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikeg_05 said:


> I've ran into it. I went to put a dimmer in and could not believe it was a dead end 3 way wire in 10:blink: Apparently "thats all they had on the van". Ridiculous.


It depends on how far into the job I am.

If my choice was to install a couple dozen feet of 10/3 and be done with the job, or make a trip who-knows-how-far to get another roll of 14/3, heck yea I'd put the 10/3 in.

However, if I'm not going to finish that day anyway, I'll leave it for tomorrow and bring a roll of 14/3 with me then.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It depends on how far into the job I am.
> 
> If my choice was to install a couple dozen feet of 10/3 and be done with the job, or make a trip who-knows-how-far to get another roll of 14/3, heck yea I'd put the 10/3 in.
> 
> However, if I'm not going to finish that day anyway, I'll leave it for tomorrow and bring a roll of 14/3 with me then.


I agree with that, but they had another days work in the attic and they did the same thing with a smoke detector but it was 12/3. I suggested maybe stocking some 14/3 on the van.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikeg_05 said:


> I agree with that, but they had another days work in the attic and they did the same thing with a smoke detector but it was 12/3. I suggested maybe stocking some 14/3 on the van.


That sounds more like poor planning. I can't imagine going down the road without at least a coil of 14/2, 14/3 and 12/2 in the back.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That sounds more like poor planning. I can't imagine going down the road without at least a coil of 14/2, 14/3 and 12/2 in the back.


Yep, having a unstocked van is setting yourself up for failure. It was always an adventure coming in after the did an RI or a remodel to trim out.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It depends on how far into the job I am.
> 
> If my choice was to install a couple dozen feet of 10/3 and be done with the job, or make a trip who-knows-how-far to get another roll of 14/3, heck yea I'd put the 10/3 in.
> 
> However, if I'm not going to finish that day anyway, I'll leave it for tomorrow and bring a roll of 14/3 with me then.


I agree, in that case. I would too, actually the house I worked on today had a 4 gang switch box in the bathroom, one of the legs was a 10/2 to vanity light. Probably the same situation.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

NMW10 works for me


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

idontknow said:


> You people can be brutal sometimes.



Sometimes?!!? 


You've got to admit though, a lot can be learned from such detailed discussion. 

Hey, btw, would NM sleeved inside PVC conduit indoors in a slab of concrete be a code violation? 

Sure they would. Article 100 DEFINITIONS: Locations, Wet.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

idontknow said:


> It's Saturday, and I get a call to go to a friends house to figure out why his pump equipment wont work. As I was troubleshooting the well pump I came across this scene.
> 
> Force the contacts for the well pump together
> pump runs fine, draws 16 amps, 240v
> ...



I have to admit that gave me a little chuckle. :smartass:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I have to admit that gave me a little chuckle. :smartass:


It makes me laugh every time I read it:thumbsup:


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

My shop teacher told me that Romex is illegal in any raceway. He told me it is illegal because the ground is not insulated. I do not believe him. Especially since i have read it on here as being legal. I asked him why you can run UF in a raceway he told me because the wires are separated so its ok.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

pudge565 said:


> My shop teacher told me that Romex is illegal in any raceway. He told me it is illegal because the ground is not insulated. I do not believe him.


That's good that you don't believe him because he is wrong. As stated, it is a code violation to install NM in raceway in wet locations which is basically everything outdoors. 

Indoors - knock your socks off.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Why is it that a plastic bag will last 600 years in a land fill, but NM run in a pipe outside, above ground is a code violation :no:

I think that guy traded in his chainsaw and now runs a CMP:laughing:


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

http://www.dccables.com/home/nmwu.htm


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