# Wiring 3 way's



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If you want them done a certain way, then why are you asking us?

All I need to know when I trim out is which wire is the common. I don't care what color it is. I just want to know which one is the common. The travelers don't make any difference.

So I could care less how the person before me wired them. Power at one end, switch leg at the other........power & switch leg at first box......... switch loop at first box, power at fixture........... I don't care.

I pull three wires out of the box, the common should be obvious.

Now, how do I wire them? Just that way. I rarely use switch loops, but no matter what way I wire them, it's obvious which is the common.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If you want them done a certain way, then why are you asking us?


There is way more experience on this forum than any place I have ever been. Plus I really thought this was a common practice.(my way)


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Sometimes it’s better not to be so anal. I'm not sure how the other guy wired it but I bet it didn't cost $50 more. What did he do, run the hot to the box furthest from the panel? Sometimes that’s just the way it ends up. I run the shortest run myself, or the easiest run. Time is money also. Don't forget about company moral amongst your subordinates, there is a value to be placed on that too, poor moral leads to theft, lying, cheating and just plain sloppy work...


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## Ohmbre (Oct 8, 2009)

Grimlock said:


> Sometimes it’s better not to be so anal. I'm not sure how the other guy wired it but I bet it didn't cost $50 more. What did he do, run the hot to the box furthest from the panel? Sometimes that’s just the way it ends up. I run the shortest run myself, or the easiest run. Time is money also. Don't forget about company moral amongst your subordinates, there is a value to be placed on that too, poor moral leads to theft, lying, cheating and just plain sloppy work...



Well put.:thumbsup:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

since it's all about money, I think what you told him should have hit home. The only thing you didn't say, that might also be applicable to motivate an employee, is - "look, the money you save us on jobs, the money you make us on jobs, is what allows me to give bonuses at xmas." (assuming you give performance bonuses)


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Grimlock said:


> What did he do, run the hot to the box furthest from the panel?


5 Runs pulled about 80 ft. All the runs were pulled right through a box were the hot could have been dropped off.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Grimlock said:


> Don't forget about company moral amongst your subordinates, there is a value to be placed on that too, poor moral leads to theft, lying, cheating and just plain sloppy work...


Thanks, great advice. Im really looking to pat the guy on the back and make him see it the way I do.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Went to a job today and my guy wired the hot for all his 3 way's different. He is much older than I and way more experienced. I wire all my 3 way's with the hot in the switch closest to the panel. I don't clam to to know it all or even 75% of it. I* kinda got on his but* after he told me it may have only cost 50 bucks more to do it his way. My response was " if I could save 50 bucks on every job, I could fill up all the trucks 2 times with that money". *I dont want to lose the guy*, but I have a way I want my jobs done. *He is really tore up over a guy telling him how to wire a 3 way* who could not reach a switch when he started doing electrical work.
> 
> How do you guys do it?


 


Voltech said:


> Thanks, great advice. Im really looking to pat the guy on the back and make him see it the way I do.


You get more out of people using sugar than you do with vinegar. He was probably more upset about how you handled the situation than being told there was a better way to wire the 3-way. I could elaborate but I don't know the details of your situation other than the fact that you posted "*I kinda got on his but* (it has two "T"s by the way), and "*He is really tore up over a guy telling him how to wire a 3 way* ". Again, he is tore up because you "*kinda got on his but*". You (personal opinion) didn't handle the situation as well as you could have. You could benefit from reading a few books like "The One Minute Manager" by Spencer Johnson, "Enlightened Leadership" by Ed Oakley and Doug Krug, or "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnagie..... Two cents from a guy with no job, for what it's worth.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Grimlock said:


> You get more out of people using sugar than you do with vinegar. He was probably more upset about how you handled the situation than being told there was a better way to wire the 3-way. I could elaborate but I don't know the details of your situation other than the fact that you posted "*I kinda got on his but* (it has two "T"s by the way), and "*He is really tore up over a guy telling him how to wire a 3 way* ". Again, he is tore up because you "*kinda got on his but*". You (personal opinion) didn't handle the situation as well as you could have. You could benefit from reading a few books like "The One Minute Manager" by Spencer Johnson, "Enlightened Leadership" by Ed Oakley and Doug Krug, or "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnagie..... Two cents from a guy with no job, for what it's worth.


I didnt elaborate, but (with 1 "t"). He told me that was not the "common way" and and it only cost about 50 bucks more. I think I got on his butt (with 2 t's ) when asking him if it was the "common way" to pull wire 80 ft farther than it needed and how we could spend the 50 bucks, then walking away.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Good employees are hard to come by.. if this guy is on time and makes you money, don't break his chops over wiring a 3/way switch.

Either learn to walk away from petty things that get you upset or you will go nuts trying to find the perfect employee 

I could not walk away from petty things that bothered me, so I work alone and everything is done right :thumbsup:

Going on (20) years since I made the move and just wish I did it sooner


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Good employees are hard to come by.. if this guy is on time and makes you money, don't break his chops over wiring a 3/way switch.
> 
> Either learn to walk away from petty things that get you upset or you will go nuts trying to find the perfect employee
> 
> ...


Who WOULDNT bust your chops about your PVC boxes and scotchcoat?:jester:

~Matt


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Who WOULDNT bust your chops about your PVC boxes and scotchcoat?:jester:
> 
> ~Matt


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Went to a job today and my guy wired the hot for all his 3 way's different. He is much older than I and way more experienced. I wire all my 3 way's with the hot in the switch closest to the panel. I don't clam to to know it all or even 75% of it. I kinda got on his but after he told me it may have only cost 50 bucks more to do it his way. My response was " if I could save 50 bucks on every job, I could fill up all the trucks 2 times with that money". I dont want to lose the guy, but I have a way I want my jobs done. He is really tore up over a guy telling him how to wire a 3 way who could not reach a switch when he started doing electrical work.
> 
> How do you guys do it?


If he is easy enough to work with and at the end of the job, you made money, the answer is easy. I can get four guys at work ,all together, and we would all have a different method of doing things. At the end of the day I can tell whose way is the best... But I don't tell them.:no:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm a firm believer in that if you have a few or more employees they should all be wiring things the same way, in general, for the most part, a good portion of the time. That way if one guy has a call, has to be on another job or calls in sick, the other guys aren't confused with what he did. Now, if a guy has a better way of doing something than the boss, that's a different story.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm a firm believer in that if you have a few or more employees they should all be wiring things the same way, in general, for the most part, a good portion of the time. That way if one guy has a call, has to be on another job or calls in sick, the other guys aren't confused with what he did. Now, if a guy has a better way of doing something than the boss, that's a different story.


You have a valid point.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> You have a valid point.


Thanks. Honestly, I wire the way my company wires, we all wire the same way. There are some things that I would do differently, but hey, I don't cut the checks. I just cash em.
:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm a firm believer in that if you have a few or more employees they should all be wiring things the same way, in general, for the most part, a good portion of the time. That way if one guy has a call, has to be on another job or calls in sick, the other guys aren't confused with what he did. Now, if a guy has a better way of doing something than the boss, that's a different story.


You have a valid point.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> You have a valid point.


I heard you the first time.
:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I heard you the first time.
> :laughing:


I just re-read. That too, is valid.


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm a firm believer in that if you have a few or more employees they should all be wiring things the same way, in general, for the most part, a good portion of the time. That way if one guy has a call, has to be on another job or calls in sick, the other guys aren't confused with what he did. Now, if a guy has a better way of doing something than the boss, that's a different story.


Electricians can find three ways to do just about anything. The best way to get everyone doing the same thing is to implement a field operations manual that spells out exactly what is expected.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Only one rule. The neutral is the white conductor. After that it comes down to length of runs and box fill for me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> Only one rule. The neutral is the white conductor. ..........


You never remark it and use it as a hot?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You never remark it and use it as a hot?


If I don't have a neutral at the other end I will.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm a firm believer in that if you have a few or more employees they should all be wiring things the same way, in general, for the most part, a good portion of the time. That way if one guy has a call, has to be on another job or calls in sick, the other guys aren't confused with what he did. Now, if a guy has a better way of doing something than the boss, that's a different story.


Thats how I like to do it also. We all have our way of doing things. When I work for someone else I have no issue doing things their way. It sucks to follow behind someone that is doing something totally different than the rest of the crew. 
I have had some do this on purpose so as to show up others when they come and fix it in two minutes. Thats when they go home until they learn to play nice and get along with the others.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> How do you guys do it?


Kinda depends on the situation, doesn't it?

Where's the power? 
Where's the light(s)?
New const or remodel?
Resi or commercial?

I know a guy who says he NEVER deadends his 3ways. I deadend them if the situation calls for it (box fill, acces etc). The one thing I won't do is run the travelers thru the light boxes in resi applications.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> The one thing I won't do is run the travelers thru the light boxes in resi applications.


Why not? :blink:

I do it when ever the 3 - wire goes past the ceiling box


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Why not? :blink:
> 
> I do it when ever the 3 - wire goes past the ceiling box


Really?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mikeg_05 said:


> Really?


Yes :blink:


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Yes :blink:


Strange, but hey, if it works for you:thumbsup: I have just never considered it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mikeg_05 said:


> Strange, but hey, if it works for you:thumbsup: I have just never considered it.


Why is it strange? :blink:

You are running wires right past the fixture box.. feed it from one side and dead end the other :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Why not? :blink:
> 
> I do it when ever the 3 - wire goes past the ceiling box


I won't do it that way now that I've found out that you do it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I won't do it that way now that I've found out that you do it.


 
:laughing::laughing:.. besides you should stay with single pole switches for safety reasons


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Why is it strange? :blink:
> 
> You are running wires right past the fixture box.. feed it from one side and dead end the other :thumbsup:


I just have never done it that way, not saying its wrong or bad. But then again I have not been in the trade as long as most of the guys on here. Usually just jump a 3 wire across call it good, dead end it, power one end switch leg the other end. I learned something new today which is always cool:thumbsup:


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Why not? :blink:
> 
> I do it when ever the 3 - wire goes past the ceiling box


And I'm the guy who comes later, looking to replace the ceiling box with a recess can and now has to rewire everything or mount a jbox in the attic. Thanks. And by the way, the 1950s have been over for 60 years.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Why not?


Not that I have ever done anything wrong but, I don't want some schmuck to have to remove the fixtures to troubleshoot someday.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Not that I have ever done anything wrong but, I don't want some schmuck to have to remove the fixtures to troubleshoot someday.



'Specially when we're the schmucks that would be called in the first place.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 'Specially when we're the schmucks that would be called in the first place.


Think of it as job security. :thumbsup:

If you can't figure out what the wires are for, you should not be in the box to begin with. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Think of it as job security. :thumbsup:
> 
> If you can't figure out what the wires are for, you should not be in the box to begin with. :no:


I don't need to create 'job security'. I do it right the first time. My security comes from a well-satisfied customer instead. :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

egads said:


> And I'm the guy who comes later, looking to replace the ceiling box with a recess can and now has to rewire everything or mount a jbox in the attic. Thanks.


So? You're an electrician, right?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> So? You're an electrician, right?


I am agreeing with him.. HOLY CHIT.. BATMAN


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I don't need to create 'job security'. I do it right the first time. My security comes from a well-satisfied customer instead. :thumbsup:


Are you saying running a 3 - wire through the fixture box is a _wrong way_ of doing it? :blink:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I am agreeing with him.. HOLY CHIT.. BATMAN



Don't ever agree with me! :furious:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Are you saying running a 3 - wire through the fixture box is a _wrong way_ of doing it? :blink:



I'm sure he has some toolish answer for that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Are you saying running a 3 - wire through the fixture box is a _wrong way_ of doing it? :blink:



From a troubleshooting perspective, yes. Nothing against it in the NEC, but why beat yourself to death taking down a fixture just to troubleshoot the circuit?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I'm sure he has some toolish answer for that.



At least I have an answer as opposed to a sleeping smiley.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> At least I have an answer as opposed to a sleeping smiley.


:sleep1:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> From a troubleshooting perspective, yes. Nothing against it in the NEC, but why beat yourself to death taking down a fixture just to troubleshoot the circuit?


You need more sleep with that answer 

Even a one year UNION helper could troubleshoot that without even breaking a sweat


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> You need more sleep with that answer
> 
> Even a one year UNION helper could troubleshoot that without even breaking a sweat



Darn it. I agree. :furious:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> You need more sleep with that answer
> 
> Even a one year UNION helper could troubleshoot that without even breaking a sweat



I'm not saying it's impossible to troubleshoot. I'm just saying, why not make it easier to troubleshoot from the git-go?

Is that so hard to understand? Would you rather have a panel full of breakers that are labeled, so you could readily and easily identify the circuit you need to lock-out so you could work on it, or would you rather have to break out some test equipment to isolate it?

Would you rather troubleshoot a three-way standing flat-footed on the floor, or do you prefer to drag out a ladder and pull down that 500-lb fixture?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm not saying it's impossible to troubleshoot. I'm just saying, why not make it easier to troubleshoot from the git-go?
> 
> Is that so hard to understand? Would you rather have a panel full of breakers that are labeled, so you could readily and easily identify the circuit you need to lock-out so you could work on it, or would you rather have to break out some test equipment to isolate it?
> 
> Would you rather troubleshoot a three-way standing flat-footed on the floor, or do you prefer to drag out a ladder and pull down that 500-lb fixture?


How is troubleshooting a ceiling box any different than a 2 gang or 3 gang switch box. :blink:

Don't be a drama queen with a 500 pound fixture


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> How is troubleshooting a ceiling box any different than a 2 gang or 3 gang switch box. :blink:


Uh, like you need a ladder?



Black4Truck said:


> Don't be a drama queen with a 500 pound fixture


You've apparently never encountered one.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

I dunno guy's.......50 post's on how to wire 3-ways.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You've apparently never encountered one.


Not hanging off a 35 pound rated ceiling box :no:

You isolate the travelers and check for continuity without having to touch the fixture 

An extra (2) wire nuts in the ceiling box is not going to wreck havoc wiring a house.

Next????


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## Grimlock (Aug 4, 2009)

I have to agree, running anything other than a switch leg to a light outlet box in a residential environment is bad practice.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Don't we get paid to do things like troubleshoot, take down lights and bring ladders into people's homes?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I personally would have taken a more relaxed approach with this dude. If he is a money maker I would let it go. As long as its in the scope of work and hes not slacking off I dont really care about little details like that. When I go into an older home im lucky sometimes if the three way is wired with old bx and not knob and tube. I could care less which end he fed it from.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> An extra (2) wire nuts in the ceiling box is not going to wreck havoc wiring a house.
> 
> Next????


Yeah, It's only money and time...:thumbsup:


JMHO


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

captkirk said:


> I personally would have taken a more relaxed approach with this dude. If he is a money maker I would let it go. As long as its in the scope of work and hes not slacking off I dont really care about little details like that. When I go into an older home im lucky sometimes if the three way is wired with old bx and not knob and tube. I could care less which end he fed it from.


And I agree, I should have made it more clear how I or the company wanted wants it done. This was a commercial job with about 18 sets of 3 ways. I feel its important to run them all the same when possible on New Construction. It will save money


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Don't we get paid to do things like troubleshoot, take down lights and bring ladders into people's homes?


Not if there is a problem with-in the 1st year on our jobs.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Voltech said:


> Not if there is a problem with-in the 1st year on our jobs.


I have never had a wirenut fall off a wire and I don't even tape the nut :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I have never had a wirenut fall off a wire and I don't even tape the nut :thumbup:



What do you need to tape them for when they're slobbered with 3M Scotchcoat? :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What do you need to tape them for when they're slobbered with 3M Scotchcoat? :whistling2:


Now_ that_ is a good point


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

B4T: Are you talking about in a commercial building? Running your travellers through pipe?

I don't see any reason to ever run your travs _through_ any box in a house. Just go from switch box to switch box.

What an I missing?
:blink:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

i tell all my leadmen i dont care how you wire a three way,feed one end load the other,switch loop,two wire or three wire travellers i dont care.but when i hire a guy he works under me or one of my lead men until we decide he is competent.if you trust your guys turn them loose.if you dont git rid of them!!.this system has worked for me a long time and all of my guys have been with me a long time


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> B4T: Are you talking about in a commercial building? Running your travellers through pipe?
> 
> I don't see any reason to ever run your travs _through_ any box in a house. Just go from switch box to switch box.
> 
> ...


I am talking _*any *_building.. if it saves me time and material, I run travelers through the fixture box and dead end the switch at the furthest box.

You are going right past it.. why go down to the switch and then back up to the light? :blink:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I am talking _*any *_building.. if it saves me time and material, I run travelers through the fixture box and dead end the switch at the furthest box.
> 
> You are going right past it.. why go down to the switch and then back up to the light? :blink:


Okay, now I gotcha. I've never used that method in a house before. Well, I've dead ended three ways before but usually in situations where the three ways are far apart like garage to house or something. In a room, hallway, or stairwell, I've always brought power to one 3-way and switch leg to the other three way.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> I am talking _*any *_building.. _if it saves me time and material_, I run travelers through the fixture box and dead end the switch at the furthest box.


It doesn't save time and in this case, time overrides material cost.



One minute of labor = about 20' of cable.

On installation, running the cables thru extra jbs takes more time and give the system a few more failure points.

On troubleshooting, it's far easier to open two switch boxes and find the whole story right there.

Your method isn't _wrong_ but there is a much better way of doing it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> It doesn't save time and in this case, time overrides material cost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I am going through (1) ceiling box that I have to feed anyway... it would be stupid IMO not to use this method. 

Using your logic of more failure points, then I should put every receptacle on a home run so the circuit is never overloaded and only has (6) connection points


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I am going through (1) ceiling box that I have to feed anyway... it would be stupid IMO not to use this method.
> 
> Using your logic of more failure points, then I should put every receptacle on a home run so the circuit is never overloaded and only has (6) connection points



Stop using common sense in this discussion. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Stop using common sense in this discussion. :jester:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)




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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Using your logic of more failure points, then I should put every receptacle on a home run so the circuit is never overloaded and only has (6) connection points


Well, it *would* be a better system and *easier* to troubleshoot but it's not practical. Keeping only switch legs in fixtures is practical.

The old school method of wiring everything thru ceiling fixtures does save materials but it's not used much anymore because of the other issues.

It's not too late to repent.:jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Well, it *would* be a better system and *easier* to troubleshoot but it's not practical. Keeping only switch legs in fixtures is practical..........


Well, we are in the commercial forum. I could see where passing the travelers through the light box,_ unspliced_, would not affect troubleshooting down the road. But this would require a raceway system like EMT. MC or NM: forget it.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Yeah. 

_Somewhere_ back there I said I was referring to cable installations.


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## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

now i dont have my own business yet.. but i work for a company who is very successful and Its because all the employees like eachother all the supervisors like eachother, therefore everyone does a good job and our good work pays off . customers always call the shop back to tell the office how happy they are with our work.
As hard as it is to watch money be wasted on long runs of wire, you got to start accepting that loss as part of the job. ive worked for a company that was strict with wire before and hearing about that all the time just got old. soon guys will estimate the runs too short and then your in more trouble. 
your employees have to respect you personally, they will only do that if you respect them.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Wiring Three ways. Let me think... K&T, Romex, and wire in conduit. . Thats three ways.


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Wiring Three ways. Let me think... K&T, Romex, and wire in conduit. . Thats three ways.


 
That's two, nobody uses K&T anymore:whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> That's two, nobody uses K&T anymore:whistling2:


Says you. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Says you. :whistling2:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


>


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Says you. :whistling2:


 
Hahaha, you installed it in your own house for fun with a handbrace didn't you?:no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


>


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


>



:sleep1:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

You two should get married.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> You two should get married.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Felix Unger and Oscar Madison


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Peter D said:


>


 
Aww come on! Now who's gonna wear the dress and have the kids???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

cdnelectrician said:


> You two should get married.


























Trust me. I like the guy, but not in the same way Chris21 does.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

JayH said:


> Felix Unger and Oscar Madison


It's to the stage where Oscar was throwing Felix out of the apartment though.


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## thekoolcody (Aug 30, 2008)

Voltech said:


> Went to a job today and my guy wired the hot for all his 3 way's different. He is much older than I and way more experienced. I wire all my 3 way's with the hot in the switch closest to the panel. I don't clam to to know it all or even 75% of it. I kinda got on his but after he told me it may have only cost 50 bucks more to do it his way. My response was " if I could save 50 bucks on every job, I could fill up all the trucks 2 times with that money". I dont want to lose the guy, but I have a way I want my jobs done. He is really tore up over a guy telling him how to wire a 3 way who could not reach a switch when he started doing electrical work.
> 
> How do you guys do it?


Sometimes when you are with a guy that has way more experience than you, you should just listen. Dont disagree, or agree. Dont say I know (thats the worst thing that you could say). Because later on when you need help with something, he could say "well you know everything, do it yourself". He is probley P.O. that you questioned him, and I would be too if you questioned me and my ways.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

cdnelectrician said:


> You two should get married.



Some how TTC workers popped into my mind?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

JayH said:


> Felix Unger and Oscar Madison


Felix wife had a _really _nice rack.. too bad that show was shot back in the early 70's when cleavage was a no no


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## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Some how TTC workers popped into my mind?


 
LOL yea really! Haven't they been getting some good publicity lately?:jester:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

thekoolcody said:


> Sometimes when you are with a guy that has way more experience than you, you should just listen. Dont disagree, or agree. Dont say I know (thats the worst thing that you could say). Because later on when you need help with something, he could say "well you know everything, do it yourself". He is probley P.O. that you questioned him, and I would be too if you questioned me and my ways.


No offence, but thinking like that could cost alot of money. I wish my bosses never questioned me or disagree with me. If one of my guys ever said "well you know everything, do it yourself" would find himself jobless.

BTW, he and I have talked and are now on the same page. We are busy and getting lots of jobs because we do good work and save money every place we. This was not a matter of who was wrong or who was right. It was matter of showing someone that the same job could be done and save money. Most people are right, its no big deal on a few. But if you do them all like that..its going to cost more money..Times are too tough to throw money away.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I am talking _*any *_building.. if it saves me time and material, I run travelers through the fixture box and dead end the switch at the furthest box.
> 
> You are going right past it.. why go down to the switch and then back up to the light? :blink:


I've seen guys in the field with 5 yrs experience stumped when i would rough two 3 wires to a ceiling box and ask them enter them in . That method also helps decrease the amount of conductors in the switch boxes.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> That method also helps decrease the amount of conductors in the switch boxes.


Switch boxes are your friends. 

They are (or should be) big enough to hold a crapload of cables and they are at a nice height for make up. 

If I have the choice between making up on a ladder or making up standing at a switch box, I'll take the sw box any day. I learned that the first day on the job :thumbup:

Same thing goes for troubleshooting.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Switch boxes are your friends.
> 
> They are (or should be) big enough to hold a crapload of cables and they are at a nice height for make up.
> 
> ...


Agree!.. However it would also be nice to have access to a steady circuit in the attic.. (My house didn't have one) And I wanted my ceiling fans on a steady circuit so I had to add one..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Agree!.. However it would also be nice to have access to a steady circuit in the attic.. (My house didn't have one) And I wanted my ceiling fans on a steady circuit so I had to add one..



Oooooooookaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy............. what's a steady circuit?


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Oooooooookaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy............. what's a steady circuit?


Unswitched


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't care about the "next guy." I wire things that make it fast and convenient for me. If the "next guy" is a capable electrician he will have no trouble figuring out what I did. If he can't, the he needs to go back to school.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I don't care about the "next guy." I wire things that make it fast and convenient for me. If the "next guy" is a capable electrician he will have no trouble figuring out what I did. If he can't, the he needs to go back to school.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


>



Why don't you just add me to your ignore list?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Why don't you just add me to your ignore list?























You are not worthy of ignoring.​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I don't care about the "next guy." I wire things that make it fast and convenient for me. If the "next guy" is a capable electrician he will have no trouble figuring out what I did. If he can't, the he needs to go back to school.


 I agree with him :001_huh:

Then lets wire all circuits with #12 and use 20 amp. circuits so the next guy can add recessed lighting without running a new home run.

Even better, is now the HO or HI guy can just do the work themselves because the hard part is already done. 

You guys make a really weak argument why it is bad to run the 3 - wire through the fixture box.:no:

Your saying it can be confusing and hard to trouble shoot.. why is THIS any different from any other electrical box we have had to fix?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Why don't you just add me to your ignore list?


Sounds like you can dish it out but can't take it


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

I've always wired bedroom and living room ceiling boxes by feeding them directly and then running a switch leg down to the box. This allows them to add a ceiling fan and have a contant hot to the fan while still being able to use the switch for the light- without needing to run a more expensive 3-wire.

Are you saying this is wrong to wire it this way because if one of my splices breaks they would have to take the fixture down?

My first reaction would be "Why the hell did my splice break!?!?!?!?!" I don't believe that I've ever made a bad splice in an open, accessible, new work situation like we are talking about. With modern wire, a good pair of strippers that don't knick the conductor, twisting the conductors together, a good wire nut, and a competent electrician- I can't see this being an issue.

My second reaction would be "If I am worried about making things easier for the next electrician in this case, what about all the other situations? How far should I go to make things easier for the next guy?"


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Switch boxes are your friends.
> 
> They are (or should be) big enough to hold a crapload of cables and they are at a nice height for make up.
> 
> ...


 I personally prefer a lightly filled switch box so when that dimmer needs to be installed or that second gang added there are less wires to deal with. As for troubleshooting, the swap of colors on travelers always makes it interesting to the DIY or GC when he decides to not call a qualified electrician. :no:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I agree with him :001_huh:
> 
> Then lets wire all circuits with #12 and use 20 amp. circuits so the next guy can add recessed lighting without running a new home run.
> 
> ...


Nobody makes my life any easier...


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

help i was almost hit by a post gone wild,,if you've seen a 6 page post making subject changes without a signalling run ,,run ,,,run there no one at the wheeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllll:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: seriously i love this forum.....


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Nobody makes my life any easier...


My point exactly :thumbsup:

It is hard enough having to bid against low ballers, out of work UNION electricians, off duty police and firemen, maintenance guys, HI guys who do it all, and the HO who runs to HD.. prices out the material and wants to know why so much? 

Last thing on my mind is making it easier for the next guy, *even* if I am the next guy.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> It is hard enough having to bid against ~ out of work UNION electricians


 :whistling2:


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

I neen a neutral in the switchbox for lighting controls.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

egads said:


> I neen a neutral in the switchbox for lighting controls.


Then you are using lighting controls way out of the norm.


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

egads said:


> I neen a neutral in the switchbox for lighting controls.


Then it should be speced in the plans.

IMO it's more important to have a hot in the ceiling box for a future fan than a neutral in the switch box for an extravagant lighting control.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> Then it should be speced in the plans.
> 
> IMO it's more important to have a hot in the ceiling box for a future fan than a neutral in the switch box for an extravagant lighting control.


In that case a three wire feed/sw leg from the light to switch and feed out to add'l outlets. now theres a neutral in the switch box


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> In that case a three wire feed/sw leg from the light to switch and feed out to add'l outlets. now theres a neutral in the switch box


You just raised the cost by using evil expensive 3-wire.

By feeding the light box and running a switch leg down, you avoided using 3-wire and only used about as much 2-wire as if you fed the switch box. Win-win situation.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

BadContact said:


> You just raised the cost by using evil expensive 3-wire.
> 
> By feeding the light box and running a switch leg down, you avoided using 3-wire and only used about as much 2-wire as if you fed the switch box. Win-win situation.


Lately on the extreme low end roughs, those first floor ceiling boxes are fed thru from the nearest 2 nd floor receptacles with a 2 wire switch loop. I can work cheap when it's necessary . 2nd floor cieling boxes are interwired with the SDs using the SD three wire to carry the circuit all the way from the basement through each bedroom. Basement pullchains are wired from the first floor receptacles. This is a bottom barrel method I use for low end minimum spec builders.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Lately on the extreme low end roughs, those first floor ceiling boxes are fed thru from the nearest 2 nd floor receptacles with a 2 wire switch loop. I can work cheap when it's necessary . 2nd floor cieling boxes are interwired with the SDs using the SD three wire to carry the circuit all the way from the basement through each bedroom. Basement pullchains are wired from the first floor receptacles. This is a bottom barrel method I use for low end minimum spec builders.


That is the cost of being competitive and giving a code compliant job.

Every builder I have ever met wanted to know.. how much and are you done yet?


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> That is the cost of being competitive and giving a code compliant job.
> 
> Every builder I have ever met wanted to know.. how much and are you done yet?


And in the end, what difference did the installation he mentioned make to the customer? Will they ever notice a difference? You think the customer cares what circuit the smokes are on or if the ceiling light on the 1st floor is power from a 2nd floor receptacle?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BadContact said:


> And in the end, what difference did the installation he mentioned make to the customer? Will they ever notice a difference? You think the customer cares what circuit the smokes are on or if the ceiling light on the 1st floor is power from a 2nd floor receptacle?


Probably not, but the HO is gonna care when that ceiling light dims when some one kicks on a vacuum cleaner on the second floor.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Probably not, but the HO is gonna care when that ceiling light dims when some one kicks on a vacuum cleaner on the second floor.


Not my problem, the feeble builders check I had to wait on and chase already cleared and that money got spent


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## BadContact (Mar 28, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Probably not, but the HO is gonna care when that ceiling light dims when some one kicks on a vacuum cleaner on the second floor.


They'll get over it. 

Customers are looking for low prices. What do you think the average answer is when you ask a customer if they want to pay $500-1,000 extra to make sure that a light doesn't dim when a vacuum is turned on?

Question, what happens when a customer runs a vacuum off a circuit that a lamp is plugged into? Dedicate every receptacle to avoid flicker? :thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Probably not, but the HO is gonna care when that ceiling light dims when some one kicks on a vacuum cleaner on the second floor.


Call the number on the panel and I;ll give them a price for a 20 amp circuit covering a few outlets in the hall on both floors.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> That is the cost of being competitive and giving a code compliant job.
> 
> Every builder I have ever met wanted to know.. how much and are you done yet?


Since your on the island you'll know when you visited one of my sub divisions with angled drilling, GE panels and the foresaid circuitry.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> However it would also be nice to have access to a steady circuit in the attic..


The garage door opener is usually a good source of attic "steady" power.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

to the OP's question, there are a lot of new dimmers that need the 3-ways to have 3 wires in them throughout both 3-ways and any 4-ways, or they will not work. 

I know that some smart axxes will say. "more money for me to fix it later:thumbup:" or other such nonsense, but if you are trying to impress your customer, and not building a tract home, then I would let him run "expensive 14-3" (or pull an extra 14 in EMT) throughout the entire switch run ,since it may have unintended positive consequences.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

danickstr said:


> to the OP's question, there are a lot of new dimmers that need the 3-ways to have 3 wires in them throughout both 3-ways and any 4-ways, or they will not work........


'Spain to me how you wire 3-ways with less than three wires to them.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

I figured he was having the guy run hot to the switch, then just two travs to the other end, and picking up the neutral off some other circuit on the other side (no afci in comm.), or in the ceiling box, and sending one hot to the light. That's the only way I can see making a buck on saved wire.


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