# Finally done



## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

A week and a half ago, on Friday afternoon, got a call that one of our customers lost power. No problem, 3000a main, storms ran through, probably tripped gfci 

I run down, reset breaker. Sq D NW w/ micrologic trip module. 

Getting weird amperage readings on the micrologic. With no load. As a reference we had already shut everything town and tested for shorts, etc. 

Turned on 6 lighting ckts -50A load - and watched micrologic bounce up and down before running up to 4k A and tripping. 

Call for a generator. Corp brings in a 1Meg unit. We wire it up to the tap box. This company uses a keyed interlock between the utility main and a1600a generator main. Turn it on,C phase on customers genny main does the same thing. Runs up and trips breaker with almost no load. 

Manufacturer thinks micrologics took a surge. So we bypass breakers and feed the bus directly. Get the customer up and running. 

Between then and tonight, sq d swapped modules - not the problem, customer brought in a 2 meg genny, sq d determined it was the CT ckts in the breakers. So they built and shooed new cb's via courier this past Friday. Sunday shut down, sq d swapped 1 cb before lightening shut work down. 

Last night they swapped the utility cb 

Today the poco reenergized line side of service. 

Tonight we finally got them back on utility. 

I think we currently have about 80 man hours in this ordeal. And now we 1st need to troubleshoot some suspected damage. 

Oh, aside from 6 hrs on Friday, the store has been fully operational and all work has been after 9 pm. 

Good times.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

80 Man hours?:blink: This is a typical call for us and should have been a 1 hour or so call. Also there are a few recalls on those micrologic trip units and one is regarding nuicance trips at low load, I will post tomorow.


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Zog said:


> 80 Man hours?:blink: This is a typical call for us and should have been a 1 hour or so call. Also there are a few recalls on those micrologic trip units and one is regarding nuicance trips at low load, I will post tomorow.


to be fair, about 70 of those man hours were stand by LOL...no kidding...

waiting for generator to arrive...I arrived onsite about 4pm friday, Generator was ordered at 6pm on friday, arrived around 10:30pm...prepped and connected at 11:45p (pouring rain the whole time)...found out that 1600A generator breaker also got hit...deal with Sq D, look for an end around...end up bypassing the CB and bolting right to the bus...done at 2am...customer up and running...

waiting for Sq D to replace modules 
waiting for Sq D to replace breakers

every time we shut down required approx 1.5 hours additional onsite time due to refrigeration...0.5 before shut down for refrigeration company to shut down system...and 1 hr after to make sure that all systems were go and no isolated problems...

Waiting for this, that and the other thing...

we spent some time doing the initial troubleshooting, connecting the generator(s) multiple times...removing the generator CB to connect the 24 feeds from the generator directly to the bus...etc..

but the customer wanted us onsite anytime anything was being done...there was about $500,000+ worth of perishable product at risk every time the power was down.

all in all, I think it went relatively well...Sq D turned around the 2 breakers in about 3-4 days including delivery...

Cummings generators jumped through hoops and worked with us and the customer every step of the way...

actually Zog, when we pulled the 1600A breaker to get the generator right to the bus, we had the breaker out in about 15 mins...

Sq D took about 5 hours to reinstall the new 1600A and the remove and replace the 3000A...that was not including the downtime for the lighting storm on Sunday...

they took about an hour the 1st night to swap out the 2 micrologics...

i'd be hard pressed to believe you understand the entire scope to believe that it should take about an hour...good try though...LOL

it was just all unplanned work around all the planned work for the week...fun times...:laughing:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

this location has an exterior service










and it's designed for easy generator hookup via this nice, shiny tap box with cam locks in it..










but that tap box, feeds this nice, useless 1600A breaker










so, we had to remove the breaker and go right to the bus...










net result was it looked like the service threw up cables










but they got inline quickly










but most important, we kept the customer up and running and kept them from losing product...they were happy, we were happy, everyone we dealt with (sq d, town, utility, generator co, refrigeration co) were happy...

just glad to be able to get some sleep...:laughing:

once we got the utility back up, we found that 2 of the 3 TVSS modules on the main went bad...










now we get to figure out what actually happened and what else, if anything, was damaged...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Not saying I would have done any better, this is actually pretty good but it really looks like the switchgear is puking DLO cable. :laughing:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

i agree, i believe that was even my caption...:laughing:

i just said it nicer "threw up cables"...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

emahler said:


> i agree, i believe that was even my caption...:laughing:
> 
> i just said it nicer "threw up cables"...


:laughing:

I just looked at the pretty pictures, guess i should have read as well 

And yes, superzog could have done the entire job in an hour. :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Nice job Eric...thanks for the pix
:thumbsup:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Celtic said:


> Nice job Eric...thanks for the pix
> :thumbsup:


i saw you hanging around and felt obligated...:laughing:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

BBQ said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I just looked at the pretty pictures, guess i should have read as well
> 
> And yes, superzog could have done the entire job in an hour. :thumbsup:


i will say this much, the utility in this area - Atlantic Electric- was great...

they worked with us every step of the way, and due to the set up they did the disconnect and reconnect of the pole top fuses via trouble truck..so we didn't have to spend a fortune to have a crew on standby...

the supervisor took ownership of the situation, gave me his cell #, and kept up with the project every day...

we have other POCO's in this state that work, well, not so nicely...no one would have taken ownership...you would have to call a call center and explain the situation every time...

Kudo's to Atlantic Electric on this one...


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

based on what it took us to remove the 1600A breaker...I really figured that both breakers would be installed in about 2 hours...i was wrong..way wrong...

total working time for the install was about 12 man hours (2 men 6 hours)...total site time for them was about 21 man hours (2 men)...this included there set up, clean up, etc...

they took their time and worked safely, can't fault them for that...but i'm guessing that since they do this everyday, their sense of urgency has been dulled...LOL


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

emahler said:


> i saw you hanging around and felt obligated...:laughing:


LOL

:laughing:


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

Do you know that single conductor cables are not to be used above 10 KA fault current?. Any one of those cables can break a leg, crush ribs, decapitate or generally cause havoc in a fault? I never would have allowed you to make temporary feeds in this manner. every cable set needs to be bound and mechanical movement of cables must be prevented in a fault Would you want to be anywhere near one of those heavy copper cables with it whipping about the room?
Maybe the generator was a high enough impedance to have a below 10ka fault but you had a lot of generator there.

Multi conductor cables would be much safer as a single faulted line is magnetically coupled and mechanically controlled so it can't whip around the room


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Mshea said:


> Do you know that single conductor cables are not to be used above 10 KA fault current?. Any one of those cables can break a leg, crush ribs, decapitate or generally cause havoc in a fault? I never would have allowed you to make temporary feeds in this manner. every cable set needs to be bound and mechanical movement of cables must be prevented in a fault Would you want to be anywhere near one of those heavy copper cables with it whipping about the room?
> Maybe the generator was a high enough impedance to have a below 10ka fault but you had a lot of generator there.
> 
> Multi conductor cables would be much safer as a single faulted line is magnetically coupled and mechanically controlled so it can't whip around the room


What is depicted in the photos is very typical of a temporary generator set-up.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mshea said:


> I never would have allowed you to make temporary feeds in this manner.


That instillation complies with the NEC and we would send you on your way. 

I have personally done dozens of similar temporary feeders.

Besides, I don't recall anyone stating the fault current the genset could provide.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

emahler said:


> Kudo's to Atlantic Electric on this one...


....must be something in the water down in Atlantic Electric area..


nj.com said:


> xxxx xxxx of Atlantic City Electric gets a hug from xxxxxx xxxxx in Northfield after turning her power back on during clean up following Saturday's severe storm.


*Crews still working to restore power in South Jersey

:thumbsup:
*


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Celtic said:


> ....must be something in the water down in Atlantic Electric area..
> 
> 
> *Crews still working to restore power in South Jersey
> ...


I may move to south jersey just to get them as a POCO.


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Celtic said:


> What is depicted in the photos is very typical of a temporary generator set-up.


considering that all the cables are provided with the generator...and that the entire set up is engineered for such and installation....and that it's code compliant (and lord knows we have enough code nazi's on these forums that would just love to get their name on a new code, please don't give them any ideas.....) and we've done about 30-35 of these set ups over the years...

i'm ok with it...


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## eds (Mar 21, 2009)

never had the opportunity to be involved in something like that, so curious to how you terminate that many cables to the busbars, would that be 6 cables per phase + 6 for the nuetral, is there enough room in the enclosure for that many connections?


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

emahler said:


> considering that all the cables are provided with the generator...and that the entire set up is engineered for such and installation....and that it's code compliant (and lord knows we have enough code nazi's on these forums that would just love to get their name on a new code, please don't give them any ideas.....) and we've done about 30-35 of these set ups over the years...
> 
> i'm ok with it...


I might be OK too but I am just offering a caution.

The key is fault current and generators are somewhat limited both by power of the prime mover and impedance of the alternator. While I have no doubt this is done all the time it isn't safe if the generator can deliver more than 10ka amps in a fault. I pointed this out only because it seems this was a very large generator and maybe it can deliver large fault currents. The Territory of Nunavut only has diesel generation and for the most part they don't have high fault currents so maybe this is true here.


There are a lot of things we do all the time and some of them result in death on occasion.

I am not saying this is a code violation in that the NEC and CEC both allow portable power cables to do this sort of thing. I am merely stating that if you are running this many sets I would caution you about the possibility that in a fault the single conductor can move violently and yes people have been killed by it. In my mind they should consider multi conductor sets or lash them in sets so the magnetic forces can be controlled.

Maybe the fact that this is a generator application then maybe it is already considered. I would confirm it with the generator supplier.

Our new arena had to install a high impedance transformer for the show power distribution to ensure the fault currents were below 10 ka and even at the aproximately 7.5 KA we have seen single cables move under load, nevermind a fault.

Keep the people away from these cables. They can be dangerous. Early this year we had a cable fault midway between a Pad mount transformer and an indoor distribution. the fault was underground about 100 feet from either end. There were 2 ducts with 500 KCM aluminum 4 wire cables all twisted together like Quad plex. The fault currents were powerfull enough to bend buswork that was braced for 45 ka fault levels so We are talking forces high enough to bend steel, aluminum and copper in brand new equipment


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

emahler said:


> i'd be hard pressed to believe you understand the entire scope to believe that it should take about an hour...good try though...LOL
> 
> it was just all unplanned work around all the planned work for the week...fun times...:laughing:


No I would not be hard pressed to understand the scope, this is exactly what I have specialized in for 20 years, but I understand this is not normal stuff for most guys. Not many would have the test equipment and replacement breakers and trip units on hand to handle this sort of thing. 

Just saying, there are companies that do this for a living and you should get to know your local ones for occasions like this. Sometimes knowing who to call is what makes you the hero.


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Zog said:


> No I would not be hard pressed to understand the scope, this is exactly what I have specialized in for 20 years, but I understand this is not normal stuff for most guys. Not many would have the test equipment and replacement breakers and trip units on hand to handle this sort of thing.
> 
> Just saying, there are companies that do this for a living and you should get to know your local ones for occasions like this. Sometimes knowing who to call is what makes you the hero.


we had the manufacturer onsite...don't think we could've done much better than that...

Zog, I know this is what you do...but in this case, with this customer, it was Sq D or no one...

but out of curiosity, what is the scope of work that you would accomplish in an hour? determining the problem? or fixing it?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

emahler said:


> considering that all the cables are provided with the generator...and that the entire set up is engineered for such and installation....and that it's code compliant (and lord knows we have enough code nazi's on these forums that would just love to get their name on a new code, please don't give them any ideas.....) and we've done about 30-35 of these set ups over the years...
> 
> i'm ok with it...


I've been involved with only a handful...last time was right after 9/11...we laid out hundreds of feet per phase from tractor-trailer mounted generators to the bus to power entire buildings in downtown Jersey City.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

emahler said:


> we had the manufacturer onsite...don't think we could've done much better than that...


 
I have worked for the OEM's, ya get the tech they send you , hope he knows what he is doing, then everything takes forever for corperate approval to make things happen. Big wheels move slow. Been there.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mshea said:


> I am merely stating that if you are running this many sets I would caution you about the possibility that in a fault the single conductor can move violently and yes people have been killed by it.


I would love to see a report about it.


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I would love to see a report about it.


Yea I would to as temp power is something I regularly deal with


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Zog said:


> I have worked for the OEM's, ya get the tech they send you , hope he knows what he is doing, then everything takes forever for corperate approval to make things happen. Big wheels move slow. Been there.


Like I said, most of our time was standby...


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## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

mmmm cam locks!


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Microligic trip units, models X.0A, P, and H manufactured between April 2001 and December 2005 were recalled due to nuisance tripping due to noise and transient bursts indicated with an AP LED. 

Additionally there have been problems reported with units that use a nuetral CT, they came out with modified nuetral CT wiring guidelines to help mitigate these high freq noise related issues (IB# 48041-082-01)


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Zog said:


> Microligic trip units, models X.0A, P, and H manufactured between April 2001 and December 2005 were recalled due to nuisance tripping due to noise and transient bursts indicated with an AP LED.
> 
> Additionally there have been problems reported with units that use a nuetral CT, they came out with modified nuetral CT wiring guidelines to help mitigate these high freq noise related issues (IB# 48041-082-01)


This building was done in '08. There is no neutral CT. 

They originally swapped the micrologic 6.0A units, they tested bad. But that wasn't the solution. They believe it took out the CT's in the unit (I guess the controls in the breaker, which apparently aren't field replaceable.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

emahler said:


> This building was done in '08. There is no neutral CT.
> 
> They originally swapped the micrologic 6.0A units, they tested bad. But that wasn't the solution. They believe it took out the CT's in the unit (I guess the controls in the breaker, which apparently aren't field replaceable.


Yep, the CT's are a PITA to replace in those, ironic how they market them as low maintnence and field replaceable acessories. :whistling2:

That is why we bring spares on calls like this.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Zog said:


> Microligic trip units, models X.0A, P, and H manufactured between April 2001 and December 2005 were recalled due to nuisance tripping due to noise and transient bursts indicated with an AP LED.
> 
> Additionally there have been problems reported with units that use a nuetral CT, they came out with modified nuetral CT wiring guidelines to help mitigate these high freq noise related issues (IB# 48041-082-01)


 
Zog .,

Normally I don't bother to ask you this one but this time I will ask you if you have time can you make a request for moi is a link or simauir for recall on that Micrologic trip unit due we have few over here in European side and I know one did got involded in recall but one of the rep did not disclose the info so I will ask directally on this one.

If you can do it .,, svp do it and a grand merci beaucoupe on this one.

Merci,
Marc


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Zog .,
> 
> Normally I don't bother to ask you this one but this time I will ask you if you have time can you make a request for moi is a link or simauir for recall on that Micrologic trip unit due we have few over here in European side and I know one did got involded in recall but one of the rep did not disclose the info so I will ask directally on this one.
> 
> ...


Here is a link, be advised there are other recalls on these breakers as well
http://files.engineering.com/downlo...8fd3&file=Micrologic_nuisance_trip_notice.pdf


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You did a great job getting this thing up and running. Plus you should make some good money. Hopefullly.
On the other side I would have fed them with SE cable just to be safe and cosmetically appealing.:laughing:


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> You did a great job getting this thing up and running. Plus you should make some good money. Hopefullly.
> On the other side I would have fed them with SE cable just to be safe and cosmetically appealing.:laughing:


thanks, but no thanks...we were running about 1300A at max...that's too damn many SE cables for anyone but Peter D...and I couldn't afford to import him...LOL


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