# Personnel Doors



## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

I would say only the first door the other one is not, IMO, related to the electrical room


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hippie said:


> I would say only the first door the other one is not, IMO, related to the electrical room


I can definitely see that side of it and don't necessarily disagree. I don't want to say that something is required when it really isn't but I also don't want to require less than what should be.

An electrician exiting the electrical room after a flash may have lost use of his/her hands and only having panic hardware on the electrical room door would then trap them in the vestibule area not allowing them to get to a more "public" area.... that's the other side that I'm wrestling with.

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Maybe Chris could start a poll?

Pete


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

That makes sense, what is the reason for the vestibule in the first place?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> First off forgive the poor drafting skills... performing an electrical plan review for a 3 story addition and remodel of an existing building.
> 
> Both of the doors are within 25 feet of the working space. Looking for opinions as to whether the requirements of 110.26(C)(3) would apply to *both* doors and supporting arguments one way or the other.
> 
> ...


I agree the doors should open out so if something goes
Wrong at least you have a way to get out.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Hippie said:


> That makes sense, what is the reason for the vestibule in the first place?


Not really sure... maybe the building owner will store their brooms and such in there instead of the actual electrical room...:no:

Pete


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I would think that if you HAVE to go thru that door to get out of the electrical room and its within the distance, then it should be required to have panic hardware.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

I would think the door between the electrical room and the vestibule should open into the vestibule with panic bars


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

k_buz said:


> I would think that if you HAVE to go thru that door to get out of the electrical room and its within the distance, then it should be required to have panic hardware.


The counter argument I expect from the designer would be that there is only one door for the "electrical room" even though you have to go through the vestibule door to get to the electrical room. 

The other argument will be the cost of the hardware for the vestibule door no doubt... seems that cost always trumps safety and common sense.

Pete


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> First off forgive the poor drafting skills... performing an electrical plan review for a 3 story addition and remodel of an existing building.
> 
> Both of the doors are within 25 feet of the working space. Looking for opinions as to whether the requirements of 110.26(C)(3) would apply to both doors and supporting arguments one way or the other.
> 
> ...


How large is the vestibule, Pete? Also, does this area just open to the electrical room (i.e. is the exit shown the only exit into or out of this space)? IMHO, if this is the case, I would swing both doors out and equip both work panic hardware.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> I would think the door between the electrical room and the vestibule should open into the vestibule with panic bars


The door to the "labeled" electrical room is a no-brainer... I'm curious if the requirement should be extended to the vestibule door...

Pete


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I would voice your opinion to the designer, do what he wants, the see what the inspector says.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> How large is the vestibule, Pete? Also, does this area just open to the electrical room (i.e. is the exit shown the only exit into or out of this space)? IMHO, if this is the case, I would swing both doors out and equip both work panic hardware.


The vestibule is roughly 8' by 8' and yes the only way to the electrical room is through the vestibule.

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

k_buz said:


> I would voice your opinion to the designer, do what he wants, the see what the inspector says.


I am the inspector as well as the electrical plans examiner... that's why I'm looking for opinions. 

It makes sense to me that both doors should be equipped with panic hardware 
and swing in the direction of egress.... just not sure that the verbiage of the code section is 100% on my side.

Pete


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> How large is the vestibule, Pete? Also, does this area just open to the electrical room (i.e. is the exit shown the only exit into or out of this space)? IMHO, if this is the case, I would swing both doors out and equip both work panic hardware.


Sorry, Pete, but if it is only serving the electrical room, why even bother with an outer door? That could also make the area less likely to be used as a storage area, which could become another safety issue all in itself....


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Is there anything in the building code that might require there be panic hardware installed. Like since this is the only means of egress, it has to have panic hardware?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Sorry, Pete, but if it is only serving the electrical room, why even bother with an outer door? That could also make the area less likely to be used as a storage area, which could become another safety issue all in itself....


I wish I could answer your question... it's not my design. I'm only doing the electrical plan review.

FWIW... I agree with you.

Pete


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> The door to the "labeled" electrical room is a no-brainer... I'm curious if the requirement should be extended to the vestibule door...
> 
> Pete


I would AHJ has final say, but if there is 25' from the working space to the electrical room door I think they are fine. Can they move the electrical room door to another wall? To avoid the vestibule


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

k_buz said:


> Is there anything in the building code that might require there be panic hardware installed. Like since this is the only means of egress, it has to have panic hardware?


Nothing in the building codes that I am aware of... panic hardware requirements out of the building code are usually driven by occupant load and use group. These rooms would not fall into either category.

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

What I may end up doing is sending the electrical designer a response something like this;

"NEC section 110.26(C)(3) requires that doors within 25 feet of the working space of equipment rated at 1200 amps or more be equipped with panic style hardware and open in the direction of egress. Submit compliant design."

At least then the designer will have to make a strong argument as to why it wouldn't be required.

Pete


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

how much space does he have from the door to the switch gear? There should be atlest 28'


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> how much space does he have from the door to the switch gear? There should be atlest 28'


There is approximately 11' from the electrical room door to the actual equipment but only 8' from the door to the required working space.

Pete


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> What I may end up doing is sending the electrical designer a response something like this;
> 
> "NEC section 110.26(C)(3) requires that doors within 25 feet of the working space of equipment rated at 1200 amps or more be equipped with panic style hardware and open in the direction of egress. Submit compliant design."
> 
> ...


 
Contact Lori Green. She is a door and hardware building code guru.

http://idighardware.com/


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> There is approximately 11' from the electrical room door to the actual equipment but only 8' from the door to the required working space.
> 
> Pete


 
from my understanding (and I could be wrong) of the code there can be nothing in that working space. I would think that vestibule wall needs to go


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> from my understanding (and I could be wrong) of the code there can be nothing in that working space. I would think that vestibule wall needs to go


25' isn't the working space, 36" is. Also, I understand the code to require the panic bar door if there is 25' or less to the equipment, not all doors within 25'


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if the door from the electric room is for egress, then the other door is for egress, and the "vestibule" may be construed as a corridor. I can't see the vestibule door not having panic hardware. In fact, I think the doors should align since egress could be under duress. Don't you have a fire marshal who also reviews the plans and that you could consult with on that issue ? Seems to me he might require it. (nfpa 101 ?)


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

wildleg said:


> if the door from the electric room is for egress, then the other door is for egress, and the "vestibule" may be construed as a corridor. I can't see the vestibule door not having panic hardware. In fact, I think the doors should align since egress could be under duress. Don't you have a fire marshal who also reviews the plans and that you could consult with on that issue ? Seems to me he might require it. (nfpa 101 ?)


The Fire Marshal hasn't been made aware of the issue as of yet (possibly later today). As of right now nothing has been built and no permits have been issued. It's cheaper to change it on paper than in the field.

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> Contact Lori Green. She is a door and hardware building code guru.
> 
> http://idighardware.com/


Is she also proficient in the NEC? The only reason I ask is that I am fairly certain that the building code would not require special hardware for either door.

Pete


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Pete-
The way I now read it (even in the handbook), it would look to me that if the door in the vestibule is within 25' of the front face of the equipment, it would still require the panic hardware to be within code. I get this from the door(s) reference. I honestly believe that if the vestibule is serving the equipment room only, that door would require panic hardware also if it within that 25'. That is why I asked if the outer door can be done away with. I have seen equipment rooms done in this fashion, but using the one door to the equipment room only.


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> The counter argument I expect from the designer would be that there is only one door for the "electrical room" even though you have to go through the vestibule door to get to the electrical room.
> 
> The other argument will be the cost of the hardware for the vestibule door no doubt... seems that cost always trumps safety and common sense.
> 
> Pete


Yes, he could argue that..... But it is door(s). If the wall of that vestibule is within the 25' of equipment, I think the door rules apply or it has to be open without a door.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> Pete-
> The way I now read it (even in the handbook), it would look to me that if the door in the vestibule is within 25' of the front face of the equipment, it would still require the panic hardware to be within code. I get this from the door(s) reference. I honestly believe that if the vestibule is serving the equipment room only, that door would require panic hardware also if it within that 25'. That is why I asked if the outer door can be done away with. I have seen equipment rooms done in this fashion, but using the one door to the equipment room only.


I interpreted the doors as being multiple doors leading out of the room within 25' one at either end for example


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Hippie said:


> I interpreted the doors as being multiple doors leading out of the room within 25' one at either end for example


I understand the view of door(s) being multiple exits, but in the configuration that Pete has drawn out, you would still be talking door(s). The last door is inside the distance by NEC standard.
Just imagine it as if that first wall and door wasn't there.... Then the door entering the vestibule would definitely require the panic hardware because it would still be inside the 25' distance.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

jmsmith said:


> I understand the view of door(s) being multiple exits, but in the configuration that Pete has drawn out, you would still be talking door(s). The last door is inside the distance by NEC standard.
> Just imagine it as if that first wall and door wasn't there.... Then the door entering the vestibule would definitely require the panic hardware because it would still be inside the 25' distance.


If the first wall wasn't there then the second door would be the actual door to the electrical room... I don't think its a good design to have a storage room in front of the door but still the inside door/wall is the actual boundary of the electrical room, I don't think its a good idea but not required


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Hippie said:


> If the first wall wasn't there then the second door would be the actual door to the electrical room... I don't think its a good design to have a storage room in front of the door but still the inside door/wall is the actual boundary of the electrical room, I don't think its a good idea but not required


I see what you're saying, but I believe that it would still have to open away and be provided with panic hardware if within the 25' boundary. It is like I was telling Pete, this is the first time I've even really heard of a space designed like this. I have seen spaces like this... But NO door. I have seen a hallway which has led to mechanical and electrical rooms, but in those case the hallway was long enough not to even have to worry about this distance. Hope I explained this correctly.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks to all... I completed the electrical review and one of the items was written just as I did in post #21.

I will wait and see what the response is.

Pete


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Pete m. said:


> Is she also proficient in the NEC? The only reason I ask is that I am fairly certain that the building code would not require special hardware for either door.
> 
> Pete


Y'know, you would think that any NEC code requiring special door hardware would also be referenced in the building codes wouldn't you?

I'm sure she could help if you contacted her.


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