# Industrial Work



## travelingelec (May 31, 2011)

dronai said:


> This is a job I would like to have a chance at, working under somebody of course.
> 
> Currently seeking qualified maintenance mechanics/electricians. Qualified candidates will have strong working knowledge of industrial machinery such as conveyor systems, high speed packaging, hydraulics, pneumatics, pumps, PLC troubleshooting, 110v to 480v electrical systems, changing out gear boxes, replacing motors, motor controls, welding, fabricating and is currently or has been recently RETA certified.
> 
> ...


 
Thats a little higher then it is here in Nebraska. 16.00 to 18.00.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

travelingelec said:


> Thats a little higher then it is here in Nebraska. 16.00 to 18.00.


 
For the same job qualifications ? That's a lot to ask for $40K a year !


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

In Ca, yeah I would agree that's low. Here in Fl. that's about mid range with an experienced guy around 22-24hr. What I have been seeing a trend of though, and it bothers me is that with the economy the way it is, employers are offering low ball salaries and getting all the applicants they need. I won't cross the street for under 20 but all the jobs I'm seeing lately are 14-18 range. Not gonna leave what I have for that.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Here, most Construction type Electricians wages are averaging $20/hr for experienced. I just thought for that job description, the wages would be higher.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Heck, depending on where in the state you live, 20 an hour for construction would be a dream..... In central Fl. last I looked, a Jman construction/resi/com guy was making about 15 or so...... I interviewed at a panel shop last week and the guy didn't tell me salary range (should have been a tip off right there) over the phone. I take time to go interview and he asks me at the end how much I make and I told him. He said that if I came in and could be traineda and producing within a month, the best he could do was 15. His road warrior service guys make in the 20s but hell, I don't want travel anymore...


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

What would you do in a panel shop, fabrication ? The cost of living is really high in Calif. and there's a big range, so you would have to prove your value pretty fast.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Guy I interviewed with builds mobile self contained water treatment systems. Travel trailers and containers and such with equipment built in. They build their own panels.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

That's not much more then our HS interns make. 


Panel shop work is just building panels, you don't get any hands on install or troubleshooting experience, that's up to outside contraactors and maybe the shop engineer(s) or maybe field service guys.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> That's not much more then our HS interns make.
> 
> 
> Panel shop work is just building panels, you don't get any hands on install or troubleshooting experience, that's up to outside contraactors and maybe the shop engineer(s) or maybe field service guys.


What is H S ? High School ? How much do they make ? On another note


I was shown a way to alternate motors with a counter. But I'm trying to figure out how to do it with a Flip Flop, using a one shot. Whats your method ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> High School ? How much do they make ?


Yeah, 15


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

That's low for a journey industrial electrician.

I make within that range and I'm 2 years from becoming a journey.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

dronai said:


> What is H S ? High School ? How much do they make ? On another note
> 
> 
> I was shown a way to alternate motors with a counter. But I'm trying to figure out how to do it with a Flip Flop, using a one shot. Whats your method ?


Not sure what you are trying to accomplish alternating the motors. I saw the logic you wrote but couldn't grasp the application.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jmohl said:


> Not sure what you are trying to accomplish alternating the motors. I saw the logic you wrote but couldn't grasp the application.


 
I see it all the time when I work with the plumbing Contractor on sump pumps. There's normally two pumps down there, and they alternate, in case one fails, there's always a back up.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> I see it all the time when I work with the plumbing Contractor on sump pumps. There's normally two pumps down there, and they alternate, in case one fails, there's always a back up.


Sounds like you have a grasp on water/wastewater stuff. Ever look into becoming a licensed operator in cali? You could do operations on small systems and do their electrical and maintenance and get into controls that way.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I have a contact of the supplier of the pump systems, and controllers. What license is that anyway ? 

I'm working on programming what I know first. I've never worked on a conveyor system yet.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Frasbee said:


> That's low for a journey industrial electrician.
> 
> I make within that range and I'm 2 years from becoming a journey.


 
And how much will you make in two years time ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> What license is that anyway ?


It be a license to operate either water or wastewater systems (I'm not 100% on cali's rules... here we have 4 license classes and 4 grades) 

You could operate the system and charge for that service plus when your clients need electrical work you got that covered, it would open up the door to the control work we do.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Thx, I'll look into that one.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I have a feeling you'll need to take at least one community college course as they probably have an education requirement.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

I have an AA degree already, but if they have additional classes, I could do it. Nothing but studying today. No work, and my accounts recievables are $2,800. And a couple are dragging their feet on payment ! Contracting has some pitfalls.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

dronai said:


> And how much will you make in two years time ?


The new journey's make anything between 20-24.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok, so in a case like that, I would use timers or real time clock. Pump A runs for say, an hour, It's contactor aux cont. would be input 1. A start or reset would be input 0.
Input 0 goes true, it starts timer1. While the timer is timing, Pump A contactor is energized with out1. Auxcont pump A in1 holds timer2 rung false. Timer1 times out, drops out pumpA. In1, auxcont. pumpA goes true, timer2 starts and it's TT bit makes PumpB out2 true. PumpB auxcont in2 goes false, holds Timer1 rung false. Process repeats. Now, if either pump goes O/L, it's aux o/l cont. makes a parallel input across the TT bit of the timer for the other pump thereby enabling that pumps output. Use the same ol aux in to make an alarm and bada-bing...


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jmohl said:


> Ok, so in a case like that, I would use timers or real time clock. Pump A runs for say, an hour, It's contactor aux cont. would be input 1. A start or reset would be input 0.
> Input 0 goes true, it starts timer1. While the timer is timing, Pump A contactor is energized with out1. Auxcont pump A in1 holds timer2 rung false. Timer1 times out, drops out pumpA. In1, auxcont. pumpA goes true, timer2 starts and it's TT bit makes PumpB out2 true. PumpB auxcont in2 goes false, holds Timer1 rung false. Process repeats. Now, if either pump goes O/L, it's aux o/l cont. makes a parallel input across the TT bit of the timer for the other pump thereby enabling that pumps output. Use the same ol aux in to make an alarm and bada-bing...


I like the ideas your giving me about using aux contacts. In my case, these are float controlled for the levels of the well. Can you draw a schematic of yours, and post it ? I would like to try that method for practice.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Lets get real here. You have no idea of what they expect and neither does anyone on this forum.
If you have a grasp for simple control logic and learn fast, I say go for it and tell them you can do anything they give you. That's how people get jobs. They grow a set, go in and take the job from the rest of the applicant pool.

Sounds like very low pay for CA. But I don't know anything about CA except they grow the best weed in the country.

If the salary will put food on the table, the job you have now pays less and its you're only choice, I say go for it. 

LMAO with the talk of relays. That's like discussing vacation before you are even hired.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

Is this a maintanence job for a local industrial plant or will you be working for a private contractor?

What kind of industrial job is this? Treatment plants, private industrial jobs?

If its treatment plants, the pay is not correct, you should be expected to receive PW wages, which vary from county to county in California, anywhere from $35-65$.

I am an industrial electrician working for a private contractor on only state treatment plants, and we range from $45-$58/hour plus benefits, and retirement. 

Keep in mind this is a state certified, apprentice trained, NON UNION electrician.

If you have no EXPERIENCE what so ever, meaning no apprenticeship you will never get a job at a treatment plant, especially working contruction.

If your attempting to do maintenance work, you will also have a VERY hard time get a job at a treatment plant due to most treatment plants needing people with experience.

If your just starting out I would suggest going through an apprentice.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Lets get real here. You have no idea of what they expect and neither does anyone on this forum.
> If you have a grasp for simple control logic and learn fast, I say go for it and tell them you can do anything they give you. That's how people get jobs. They grow a set, go in and take the job from the rest of the applicant pool.
> 
> Sounds like very low pay for CA. But I don't know anything about CA except they grow the best weed in the country.
> ...


I will grow a set, if I can even get an interview. My resume is self employment since 1989 !!!


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

qckrun said:


> Is this a maintanence job for a local industrial plant or will you be working for a private contractor?
> 
> What kind of industrial job is this? Treatment plants, private industrial jobs?
> 
> ...


 I went thru an electricial maintenence program NEC, Theory, and Motor Control, in 1991.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Lets get real here. You have no idea of what they expect and neither does anyone on this forum.
> If you have a grasp for simple control logic and learn fast, I say go for it and tell them you can do anything they give you. That's how people get jobs. They grow a set, go in and take the job from the rest of the applicant pool.
> 
> Sounds like very low pay for CA. But I don't know anything about CA except they grow the best weed in the country.
> ...


This is exactly what I'm doing to do. I'm tired of not getting jobs because I don't have 10 years PLC experience or whatever. They are highering plant maintenance staff. Not PLC programming division or whatever.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

qckrun said:


> Is this a maintanence job for a local industrial plant or will you be working for a private contractor?
> 
> What kind of industrial job is this? Treatment plants, private industrial jobs?
> 
> ...


 
Like an apprenticeship teaches you something you can't learn from a book. Oh forgot, here's your homework for tonight from your.. text book. OJT is where you learn the real meat and potatos.


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## industrial951 (Jan 29, 2011)

qckrun said:


> Is this a maintanence job for a local industrial plant or will you be working for If your attempting to do maintenance work, you will also have a VERY hard time get a job at a treatment plant due to most treatment plants needing people with experience.
> 
> If your just starting out I would suggest going through an apprentice.



Does it matter what type of apprenticeship? Or does it have to be something from MWD?

California water treatment has 5 grades, I took the grade 2 test and failed, man that test was BS! anyone have the answers?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> My resume is self employment since 1989 !!!


You're gonna wanna decide if you want to stay that way or what.

IMO I wouldn't give up the business, just expand it. You simply don't need an apprenticeship to do this. I never apprenticed and did ok lol.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Jmohl said:


> real time clock.



There's really no reason to bring run time into it. Lift station pumps run about equal amounts of time once everything is balanced out over time. 

But bringing in aux contacts, current switches, flow switches... whatever is defiantly something that needs to be done in the real world. 

Another thing lots of operators and utilities want to see is for us to retain the option to force one pump or another to run over the other and not alternate. That's feature that lots of alternating relays have and they want it maintained either with a selector or through the HMI.


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## industrial951 (Jan 29, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> You're gonna wanna decide if you want to stay that way or what.
> 
> IMO I wouldn't give up the business, just expand it. You simply don't need an apprenticeship to do this. I never apprenticed and did ok lol.


Agree!


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

!!! they are asking for a control guy, an electrician, a mechanical and a welding guy. They wont find anybody that is good for all those jobs together!


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

oliquir said:


> !!! they are asking for a control guy, an electrician, a mechanical and a welding guy. They wont find anybody that is good for all those jobs together!


Welcome to the South my friend.... Multitrade is all the rage with employers around here. They want journey ablity in three trades and pay helper wage for one...... To find a job that requires single trade skills with commensurate pay, you have to beat the bushes and hold out for the right gig.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

oliquir said:


> They wont find anybody that is good for all those jobs together!


:001_huh: Why not. 

The_ jack of all trades master of none_ stuff is BS. A person can defiantly be good at electrical, mechanical, welding and more.


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## qckrun (May 18, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Like an apprenticeship teaches you something you can't learn from a book. Oh forgot, here's your homework for tonight from your.. text book. OJT is where you learn the real meat and potatos.


 Really? I did not know that , however in the STATE of CALIFORNIA to be an electrician you must be either (A) State certified Journeyman, (B) State approved Electrician Techincian, or (C) State approved apprenctice. 

So unless you can get any of those three qualifications without an apprenticeship (which you cant) and no OJT then your **** out of luck to LEGALLY work in the state of CA.


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> :001_huh: Why not.
> 
> The_ jack of all trades master of none_ stuff is BS. A person can defiantly be good at electrical, mechanical, welding and more.


I was an Industrial Electrician for 25 plus years & with all the new Technology to keep up with in one trade, is all one can handle. We went multi-craft & had training in Instuments, welding, etc...... & it was a joke because of what I stated above.......... 
I feel I can get by in the other trades, but to be my best- it only has to be one trade........................... 


This was bought on by Big business to save money, even though they know it is unrealistic............ Just a body really doesn't get it man................


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

It's not unrealistic if you try. 

Having guys that are capable mechanics, electricians, water operators, welders, and what not is why we are successful.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dron, clear your PM box.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> dron, clear your PM box.


Done deal, Let me know what you think


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> It's not unrealistic if you try.
> 
> Having guys that are capable mechanics, electricians, water operators, welders, and what not is why we are successful.


100%. Being able to do all these things is the reason (plus a little luck) I've been employed for the past 15 years, no firings-no layoffs. You gotta make yourself useful to your employer (yeah, I'm a union guy)


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

dronai said:


> I will grow a set, if I can even get an interview. My resume is self employment since 1989 !!!


That will most likely hurt you more than help you. IMO.



oliquir said:


> !!! they are asking for a control guy, an electrician, a mechanical and a welding guy. They wont find anybody that is good for all those jobs together!


They might, but they will get average work for each extra trade the person is supposed to know.



Jmohl said:


> Welcome to the South my friend.... Multitrade is all the rage with employers around here. They want journey ablity in three trades and pay helper wage for one...... To find a job that requires single trade skills with commensurate pay, you have to beat the bushes and hold out for the right gig.


You are so right. Thats what this country has come down too. People bash unoins around here all the time. But when unions were strong, they had to hire 3 people instead of one to do that job. So, they move to the south were $10.00 an hour was big money to the people and wham. The company makes it big, and the guy they hired gets to go out for ice cream after church.



Jlarson said:


> :001_huh: Why not.
> 
> The_ jack of all trades master of none_ stuff is BS. A person can defiantly be good at electrical, mechanical, welding and more.


You tell me you write code. You program PLC's, you are a technician. Then at 3:30 on Friday afternoon and you are already tired mentally and physically, you are going to stick weld a bucket that the contractor on site broke. Then go pull a few gear boxes, tear them down, make a material list, machine check all parts and repair as needed, order the parts and then put the gearbox back together. All the while your technical duties are left over. 
I am not saying a person cannot do these things. Of course they can. But it is a company taking advantage of this person that bugs the s**t out of me. Do you ever draw a line.



mrmike said:


> I was an Industrial Electrician for 25 plus years & with all the new Technology to keep up with in one trade, is all one can handle. We went multi-craft & had training in Instuments, welding, etc...... & it was a joke because of what I stated above..........
> I feel I can get by in the other trades, but to be my best- it only has to be one trade...........................
> 
> 
> This was bought on by Big business to save money, even though they know it is unrealistic............ Just a body really doesn't get it man................


You are so correct Mike. Make people do more for less. Thats the right wing philosophy. Who are these big company owners and CEOs. They are not lefties, thats for damn sure. This is one reason they are not hiring. They got to get that **** out of the white house first. They don't want the country to do good yet. They are waiting for the election.



Jlarson said:


> It's not unrealistic if you try.
> 
> Having guys that are capable mechanics, electricians, water operators, welders, and what not is why we are successful.


It is comprehensible to have people that can do more than one thing. I worked in a textile plant that had what they called "working foreman". They were production foremen/operators that fixed as much as they could within their limits before calling maintenance. That is fine. But when a company wants a mechanic, a welder and an electrician in one, they are expecting to much. Not to mention they most likely going to end up with a "jack of all trades". AKA, Hack.



Jefro said:


> 100%. Being able to do all these things is the reason (plus a little luck) I've been employed for the past 15 years, no firings-no layoffs. You gotta make yourself useful to your employer (yeah, I'm a union guy)


 
Any Union I ever worked in would not allow an electrician to do any welding, operating cranes, running duct work or finishing concrete. They hired people that were the best at their profession. Not one guy to do all the professions. What union do you belong to? Maybe two other people would have jobs if you were not so great. I did not mean that as disrespect. I mean it from a jobs standpoint. If you are doing several peoples jobs, it does make you valuable. But if you are really in the union it also makes you a rat in the eyes of the union.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

That sounds like a company trying to take advantage of bad times to me. 18-20 is not much...more then likely they wont get what they want here.

This would be a perfect place for a guy without experience to slip in, and use this place as his own personal training facility. I am going to say that nobody with any real experience or talent, sans serious personal problems, is going to apply for this position.

Kind of the way I read this add it should read "wanted, parts changer"....can change electrical parts, and mechanical parts.

Ability to quickly change all components in a circuit, until problem found. Must be able to splatter some weld with a stick onto metal for quick, low strength applications if absolutely necessary. Must be able to replace belts, and get them "kinda" lined up.

Some places doll this up by calling it "cross trade", what we have always called it is "farmer". Farmers can keep a farm running, pretty much. Most of it is not done well, and certainly not what anyone here would call "professional standard"- but if you throw enough muck at a wall some of it will stick.

But again, perfect place for a guy without experience to get some...and maybe an apprenticeship too. When he has his 5 years in, kick the can down the road to a place that's going to pay him what he is actually worth.:thumbsup:


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## fjl810 (Jul 20, 2011)

I am union electrician for 31 + years doing industrial work for the MTA. In skilled trades there are electricians, plumbers, welders, sheet metal, machinest etc.

You name the skill there is a title. They tryed to broad-band some titles, Do you think it worked.

To some degree it can work ,But you cant ask a plumber to trouble-shoot a plc for a 600 ton wheel press.


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## industrial951 (Jan 29, 2011)

> You tell me you write code. You program PLC's, you are a technician. Then at 3:30 on Friday afternoon and you are already tired mentally and physically, you are going to stick weld a bucket that the contractor on site broke. Then go pull a few gear boxes, tear them down, make a material list, machine check all parts and repair as needed, order the parts and then put the gearbox back together. All the while your technical duties are left over.
> I am not saying a person cannot do these things. Of course they can. But it is a company taking advantage of this person that bugs the s**t out of me. Do you ever draw a line.


thats exactly what happens to my buddy, he works like 12 hour shifts and is constantly on call. it sucks because theres atleast 20 other mechanics and none of them know jack **** so they call him constantly, luckily he doesnt live to far from the plant, but they take total advantage of him and his knowledge.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*LOL !!!! Give me a break ! Look at the wage for all that.*
*Wiring Technician Job Description:*

Wiring control panels for vending machines, automated systems, etc. for a variety of industries. They are looking for wiring technicians that have good knowledge of power and control circuits, PLC (Programmable Logic Control) wiring, electrical schematics, ladder schematics, power distribution, VFD wiring, and following shope procedures. Qualified candidates must have the electrical knowledge to do the wiring but also must demonstrate a good work ethic and help out wherever needed. Candidates must be open to building crates and performing shipping and receiving. Must have a team player attitude.

Hours are 2pm-10:30 pm Sun-Thurs. Must be open to OT

*Pay is $13.50/hr*
*Required Skills for Wiring Technician Job:*


TECHNICIAN-UNCATEGORIZED
PLC
CONTROL PANEL
WIRING
SCHEMATIC
VFDS
ELECTRIC ASSEMBLY


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

dronai said:


> *LOL !!!! Give me a break ! Look at the wage for all that.*
> *Wiring Technician Job Description:*
> 
> Wiring control panels for vending machines, automated systems, etc. for a variety of industries. They are looking for wiring technicians that have good knowledge of power and control circuits, PLC (Programmable Logic Control) wiring, electrical schematics, ladder schematics, power distribution, VFD wiring, and following shope procedures. Qualified candidates must have the electrical knowledge to do the wiring but also must demonstrate a good work ethic and help out wherever needed. Candidates must be open to building crates and performing shipping and receiving. Must have a team player attitude.
> ...


It's either one of 2 things.

1.) They actually expect to find someone qualified and desperate enough to work for that $hitty pay.

2.) They aren't concerned as much about you being qualified as much as *eager.*

It's _reeaaaally_ easy to take advantage of both desperate and/or eager.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Frasbee said:


> It's either one of 2 things.
> 
> 1.) They actually expect to find someone qualified and desperate enough to work for that $hitty pay.
> 
> ...


 
That sounds like a panel shop to me.

The one's I know of even hires HS kids in the summer. There is no live voltage, they just mounts parts according to a diagram, in a pre-drilled back plane, and then they loom the wires.

Think about it more as putting together the same kit over and over and over. Or, paint by number.

The part that gives it away is the building crates.....


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Hell yeah there are lots of places looking to take advantage, its the perfect time for that.

We got our selves into a spot where we don't need, want or care to be one of those companies.

On the occasions we're doing a construction project there are plenty of labours and the guys basically just supervise and do the tech work. On service calls you bet everyone does some of everything that they can.

With operations most of it is just racking up windshield time, many 100's of miles a trip isn't uncommon so they need to be good mechanically and electrically so they can either fix problems or tshoot them and have someone bring parts and equipment or go get them.


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Any Union I ever worked in would not allow an electrician to do any welding, operating cranes, running duct work or finishing concrete. They hired people that were the best at their profession. Not one guy to do all the professions. What union do you belong to? Maybe two other people would have jobs if you were not so great. I did not mean that as disrespect. I mean it from a jobs standpoint. If you are doing several peoples jobs, it does make you valuable. But if you are really in the union it also makes you a rat in the eyes of the union.


Yeah. I'm an stationary engineer in the SEIU-now. I'm a mechanic in a plant. My job is what it is-now. The point I'm trying to make is that when I wasn't in a union position, I learned to do many different trades on many different jobs and stayed working while some other yo-yos sat at home with their entitlement attitude and watched daytime TV.


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## JD_ (Jul 8, 2011)

So are there any real reasons why a person can't do more then one trade?


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

JD_ said:


> So are there any real reasons why a person can't do more then one trade?


 

Most of us have to work our butts off just to keep up with constantly changing technology on the electrical end of things. But maybe we are just slow....?

Thinking that keeping up with Siemens, Allen Bradley, and the thousands of other companies that come out with "new and improved" every few months is not enough anymore.


According to some here, "dabbling" at being an electrician a will make us just as capable and knowledgeable as the guy who keeps up with changes and works it full time all year....... and goes to update classes, and also vendor specific training, every year.

Instead of wasting our time doing that kind of thing, we can "dabble" at other trades, and be just as skilled in those as a full time hand.

We can be HVAC, fabricators, machinists, LV, millwrights, tin knockers and steamfitters all in one!!!!

We can all be " SUPER FARMERS "

Hell yeah, sign me up!!! :laughing:


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

lefleuron said:


> Most of us have to work our butts off just to keep up with constantly changing technology on the electrical end of things. But maybe we are just slow....?
> 
> Thinking that keeping up with Siemens, Allen Bradley, and the thousands of other companies that come out with "new and improved" every few months is not enough anymore.
> 
> ...


And I'm not saying I'm Joe Do-it-all, Jack-of-all trades, but when the job title dictates troubleshooting industrial circuits and motors safely AND fitting (pressure) pipe and rebuilding steam traps and a whole mess of other stuff and you submit a resume that has all that stuff on it, you get the job. I want to be good at everything that is required of me. That's why I go to classes and read up, like you're saying and even come here to get my share of abuse from time to time, haha.


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## JD_ (Jul 8, 2011)

That was a rhetorical question. There are no real reasons just excuses. Electricians like jefro are what is right with the trade.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

JD_ said:


> That was a rhetorical question. There are no real reasons just excuses. Electricians like jefro are what is right with the trade.


 
I smell something....sniff...sniff...YUP! Its troll juice!!!!:gun_bandana:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

No that's just one of my idiot employees. 


He's J_L at that _other forum_. :laughing:


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## JD_ (Jul 8, 2011)

Actualy it was J_L. I had to stop posting over there cause my g/f took issue with the boobs.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

Pw'd much???


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