# Safely remove existing underground conduit/wire



## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

So I am upgrading a meter from 200 to 400 and then an house panel from 100 to 200. Need to remove 300' wire buried from meter to panel. Homeowner wants to keep the old wire and conduit. 

I have in the past used tamping rod and trencher going very slowly + I have done it by hand. Anyone have a unique approach to removing with trencher safely and not damaging the old materials?


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I would disclaim any responsibility for damage to existing u/g to be removed. Heck it could have been damaged when it was installed but nobody knows it yet because it never caught fire (yet).


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## Patriot1776 (May 20, 2016)

I'm assuming the conduit needs to be upsized to fit the new wire in it. Why does the homeowner want to keep it? Future sub panel feed to an outbuilding? 

Anytime I have had to deal with ripping out the old feeder we used a mini excavator and a good hearty dose of caution to remove the majority of the soil and then hand dug the rest.


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

"Future sub panel feed to an outbuilding? " 

Yes exactly


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Underground conduits don't normally age well.

You can't believe the grit and ^^%$ that manages to get in between the existing conductors and the pipe.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

This is a complete waste of time that I would of talked the homeowner out of the first time he mentioned it. 

It does not make economical sense to pay an electrician at electrical rates to very carefully and slowly remove old underground conduit and wire. 

If he was adamant about it, I would bring OUR mini excavator on site with a 24" smooth bucket to do the job. It is not a problem if you have a guy with some experience running it, we just did a job uncovering some 1" pvc conduits to extend them. It was not a problem for us to dig down to them without damaging them and with very little shovel work. The smooth bucket will glide right across the top of the conduit if you have a careful excavator operator.

We also have a high end rd7100 locator that gives us depth. We would locate and mark the depth and be able to dig right to it without any trouble.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The customer is always right except when he's wrong.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Wait...

You're intending to save the old PVC ... to re-use it elsewhere ?

That's insane.

It's worthless.

The conductors are only worth scrap.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cow said:


> This is a complete waste of time that I would of talked the homeowner out of the first time he mentioned it.
> 
> It does not make economical sense to pay an electrician at electrical rates to very carefully and slowly remove old underground conduit and wire.
> 
> ...


Agreed, the whole thing sounds like a fool's errand.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Cow said:


> This is a complete waste of time that I would of talked the homeowner out of the first time he mentioned it.


Yep. Stop him dead in his tracks before he comes up with more dumb ideas.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Having someone dig slowly when they are being paid $100+ an hour easily outweighs the cost of the conduit and wire in the ground. 

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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Not to mention all the hand digging and removing a 300' length of already glued together pvc. This don't make any sense at all.

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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Cow said:


> This is a complete waste of time that I would of talked the homeowner out of the first time he mentioned it.
> 
> It does not make economical sense to pay an electrician at electrical rates to very carefully and slowly remove old underground conduit and wire.
> 
> ...


Abso friggin lutely


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

rrolleston said:


> Having someone dig slowly when they are being paid $100+ an hour easily outweighs the cost of the conduit and wire in the ground.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk


Abso friggin lutely


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

bobmane said:


> So I am upgrading a meter from 200 to 400 and then an house panel from 100 to 200. Need to remove 300' wire buried from meter to panel. Homeowner wants to keep the old wire and conduit.
> 
> I have in the past used tamping rod and trencher going very slowly + I have done it by hand. Anyone have a unique approach to removing with trencher safely and not damaging the old materials?


I completely agree with nixing this. IMO , just sayin , I would recommend
he call an excavation company if he's dead set on this stupidity.

also , this has " I'm not paying your invoice in full cause you damaged
my underground feeders"..written all over it.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

PVC is cheap and fast.

Digging up and re-burying used conductors is just asking for trouble.

Makes no sense.

RUBBISH!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Get a chain and a D6 and give it a pull. If it comes out, good. If not, have a nice day.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bobmane said:


> So I am upgrading a meter from 200 to 400 and then an house panel from 100 to 200. Need to remove 300' wire buried from meter to panel. Homeowner wants to keep the old wire and conduit.
> 
> I have in the past used tamping rod and trencher going very slowly + I have done it by hand. Anyone have a unique approach to removing with trencher safely and not damaging the old materials?


Keep it nice and safe AND buried.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

If it's piped all the way, I'd suggest a compromise where the existing wire is 
pulled out of the pipe before excavation. Then excavate disregarding the 
old conduit. Let the HO know that the wire might come out pristine, or not. 
P&L


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

PlugsAndLights said:


> If it's piped all the way, I'd suggest a compromise where the existing wire is
> pulled out of the pipe before excavation. Then excavate disregarding the
> old conduit. Let the HO know that the wire might come out pristine, or not.
> P&L


The old materials are no more than 2 years old under low stress so might work.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

like P&L said, tug out the wire, dig up and replace PVC, its too cheap to bother saving. Quote H.O the price of a hydrovac to save both wire and conduit.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Removing the wire could be a nightmare. I have seen even glued conduit fill up with water and mud making wire almost impossible to remove. Somehow a joint was not water tight and filled up with sediment. 

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

rrolleston said:


> Removing the wire could be a nightmare. I have seen even glued conduit fill up with water and mud making wire almost impossible to remove. Somehow a joint was not water tight and filled up with sediment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk


That sounds much closer to the rule than the exception!


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

bobmane said:


> The old materials are no more than 2 years old under low stress so might work.


:no:

Don't bet on it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> :no:
> 
> Don't bet on it.


Well, he did say *might*!:thumbsup:


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Well, he did say *might*!:thumbsup:


might is the operative word for sure. anyone have techniques on methods to remove it?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

rrolleston said:


> Removing the wire could be a nightmare. I have seen even glued conduit fill up with water and mud making wire almost impossible to remove. Somehow a joint was not water tight and filled up with sediment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk


I don't think I have ever seen underground that wasn't wet inside within 6 months.

If the feeders are only 2 years old, they may very well be salvageable if you pull them first but this sounds like the kind of thing where you spend a ****load of money trying to save a few bucks.

What size are the feeders? AL or CU? What insulation?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

five.five-six said:


> I don't think I have ever seen underground that wasn't wet inside within 6 months.
> 
> If the feeders are only 2 years old, they may very well be salvageable if you pull them first but this *sounds like the kind of thing where you spend a ****load of money trying to save a few bucks*.
> 
> What size are the feeders? AL or CU? What insulation?


Yeah man, I believe the proper term is "fool's errand".


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I had a customer once who looked at my box of scrap wire ends during finishing work. He thought I should splice them together and re-use them. I wonder if this is the same guy  .


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

five.five-six said:


> What size are the feeders? AL or CU? What insulation?


AL on a 90 AMP Circuit from Old Meter to Old Panel


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> I had a customer once who looked at my box of scrap wire ends during finishing work. He thought I should splice them together and re-use them. I wonder if this is the same guy  .


One never knows, do one?

Maybe he moved!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

bobmane said:


> AL on a 90 AMP Circuit from Old Meter to Old Panel


*Not worth the effort!*


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I haven't seen where he said it was in conduit. Someone ran a conduit 300 feet and didn't use 2 inch for that?
If they did I would just pull the wires out and install some 4/0 alum.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I haven't seen where he said it was in conduit. Someone ran a conduit 300 feet and didn't use 2 inch for that?
> If they did I would just pull the wires out and install some 4/0 alum.


From post #1:

" Homeowner wants to keep the old wire and conduit."


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> From post #1:
> 
> " Homeowner wants to keep the old wire and conduit."


Yep sure does. Wonder what size it is?


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

old conduit is 1 1/2


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Less than 500 of material. Scrap it not worth trying to save. 

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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

bobmane said:


> AL on a 90 AMP Circuit from Old Meter to Old Panel


I fell out of my chair laughing.

This is the very definition of worthless.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

telsa said:


> I fell out of my chair laughing.
> 
> This is the very definition of worthless.


Worth a mint to the home owner apparently.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

bobmane said:


> AL on a 90 AMP Circuit from Old Meter to Old Panel





bobmane said:


> old conduit is 1 1/2


For that size I will not really bother to pull the old conductors.,,

those size of al conductors may not get very high on scrap value.

I am not sure what they are running in USA on pricewise.,, but I kinda not expecting to be very high price at all.,, probly about 25 to 50 cent per pounds.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

bobmane said:


> old conduit is 1 1/2


What size feeders are the new CU?

If you can reuse the existing conduit, that's the customer's big saveings right there.

AL feeders, not worth the trouble.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

My definition of scrap it was not referring to scraping the wire. It was referring to scrapping the idea of trying to save the wire and conduit. Your going to spend more than its worth removing the wire and conduit than its worth. 

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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

frenchelectrican said:


> For that size I will not really bother to pull the old conductors.,,
> 
> those size of al conductors may not get very high on scrap value.
> 
> I am not sure what they are running in USA on pricewise.,, but I kinda not expecting to be very high price at all.,, probly about 25 to 50 cent per pounds.


Marc, I can't afford to even drive the conductors over to the scrap yard at today's prices.

For those unaware, Red China is dumping crazy amounts of aluminum onto the world market.

Yup.

Millions of pounds of aluminum ingot sit in the Mexican sun -- awaiting the American market. You can see them from orbit. (!!!)

[ They store cheaper in Mexco -- and the intention is to pump them into the auto and electrical markets, in bulk. ]


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would pull the wire out a reuse it. Will take about 3 minutes. It is about $300 worth of wire. If it comes out hard you can abandon it.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I would pull the wire out a reuse it. Will take about 3 minutes. It is about $300 worth of wire. If it comes out hard you can abandon it.


My AHJ flatly prohibits such a re-use.

I would get spanked -- big time -- if caught attempting it.

The only re-use permitted -- would be to leave the conductors right where they are.

Re-circuiting is permitted.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> My AHJ flatly prohibits such a re-use.
> 
> I would get spanked -- big time -- if caught attempting it.
> 
> ...


That is total bull****.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> That is total bull****.


I wish you were right. :whistling2:

And you wonder why California real estate is absurdly priced.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

telsa said:


> My AHJ flatly prohibits such a re-use.
> 
> I would get spanked -- big time -- if caught attempting it.
> 
> ...


If it passes the megger test, that meets the code article that specifies any wiring we install "shall be free of any short circuits." No where, NO WHERE does the code book say material we use must be new.

In fact we demo a fair amount of good used material in a given year. We'll often times save it for the customer who wants a better deal and doesn't care if it's a scratch and dent special with a few extra KO's we have to seal. Yeah it's not pretty, but if it replaces some crap install they have right now, I have no problem installing GOOD used material. 

(The reality is, it's far and few between when we install used material. We usually get tired of tripping over it after a while and throw it in the scrap metal bin....!)


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

telsa said:


> I wish you were right. :whistling2:
> 
> And you wonder why California real estate is absurdly priced.


OK, So lets say we pull out 2 year old wire and put it in my shop. Then I do a small shop and run #2 alum to the sub panel. I use that wire to wire it. How are your inspectors going to know any different.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Cow said:


> If it passes the megger test, that meets the code article that specifies any wiring we install "shall be free of any short circuits." No where, NO WHERE does the code book say material we use must be new.
> 
> In fact we demo a fair amount of good used material in a given year. We'll often times save it for the customer who wants a better deal and doesn't care if it's a scratch and dent special with a few extra KO's we have to seal. Yeah it's not pretty, but if it replaces some crap install they have right now, I have no problem installing GOOD used material.
> 
> (The reality is, it's far and few between when we install used material. We usually get tired of tripping over it after a while and throw it in the scrap metal bin....!)


Be honest, Have you ever watched an inspector meg anything ever?


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> My AHJ flatly prohibits such a re-use.
> 
> I would get spanked -- big time -- if caught attempting it.
> 
> ...


In certain commercial projects where the specs. specify material usage and storage I can see this, but in a residential, commercial or even industrial project, I can't see where they get away with not allowing it.

I used to do a ton of work for HP in their server rooms, we re-used wire, conduit, fittings, large j-boxes, etc... all day long. We measured and tagged everything we pulled out, then when we would reconfigure a room we could reuse the material.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> Be honest, Have you ever watched an inspector meg anything ever?


I just had an inspection today on a residential rewire and a detached 6000 sq. ft. commercial shop. The inspector was there for 5 min.... "Hey Switched..... See you later Switched..."


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Cow said:


> If it passes the megger test, that meets the code article that specifies any wiring we install "shall be free of any short circuits." *No where, NO WHERE does the code book say material we use must be new.*
> 
> In fact we demo a fair amount of good used material in a given year. We'll often times save it for the customer who wants a better deal and doesn't care if it's a scratch and dent special with a few extra KO's we have to seal. Yeah it's not pretty, but if it replaces some crap install they have right now, I have no problem installing GOOD used material.
> 
> (The reality is, it's far and few between when we install used material. We usually get tired of tripping over it after a while and throw it in the scrap metal bin....!)


You must re-read my post. 

This is a LOCAL amendment to the NEC.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> You must re-read my post.
> 
> This is a LOCAL amendment to the NEC.


Is that a Sac thing?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I pulled out about 600 feet of #4 thhn out of a walmart/menards job that we turned into a Hobby Lobby. If you don't think I am reusing that your nuts. I had two college kids that summer. I even had them take the thousands of feet of 1 inch conduit and bundle it up. All in all I bet I took $10K worth of **** off that job. 
There is know freaking way any AHJ can tell me I can't use any of it, but I wouldn't worry about it because for one they would never know and two they would never give a ****. 
I still think tes is full of **** and just got caught to far in his bull****ting. I would love to see the amendment.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> Be honest, Have you ever watched an inspector meg anything ever?


No.

....


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I pulled out about 600 feet of #4 thhn out of a walmart/menards job that we turned into a Hobby Lobby. If you don't think I am reusing that your nuts. I had two college kids that summer. I even had them take the thousands of feet of 1 inch conduit and bundle it up. All in all I bet I took $10K worth of **** off that job.
> There is know freaking way any AHJ can tell me I can't use any of it, but I wouldn't worry about it because for one they would never know and two they would never give a ****.
> I still think tes is full of **** and just got caught to far in his bull****ting. I would love to see the amendment.


Even working for a company the reclaim on a food store reno always mad eme feel like my apprentice(s) made the company some funds on what was removed-saved and put back in stock.

On my own jobs I always reclaim-reuse. Especially full lengths of conduit.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Switched said:


> Is that a Sac thing?


Yup.

We've got a slew of amendments that trip 'imported' electricians up. 

Many are, IMHO, dubious. But there they are.

Sac City is much worse than Sac County... so much so that most ECs don't want to work inside Sac City. 

Sac City was even sued over its arbitrary inspectors... the City lost the lawsuit. (!!!!!)


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> Yup.
> 
> We've got a slew of amendments that trip 'imported' electricians up.
> 
> ...


Do both the county and city have written code amendments that you can download? I've done a ton of work in SF over the years and they have a downloadable code with all the amendments.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> I pulled out about 600 feet of #4 thhn out of a walmart/menards job that we turned into a Hobby Lobby. If you don't think I am reusing that your nuts. I had two college kids that summer. I even had them take the thousands of feet of 1 inch conduit and bundle it up. All in all I bet I took $10K worth of **** off that job.
> There is know freaking way any AHJ can tell me I can't use any of it, but I wouldn't worry about it because for one they would never know and two they would never give a ****.
> I still think tes is full of **** and just got caught to far in his bull****ting. I would love to see the amendment.


I have no doubt that such practices occur right under our inspector's noses.

I have never witnessed it though in all my time here... and some of the outfits were as tight as ticks.

California has a unique tax on inventory. Yup, the only state to do so.

This means that it's ruinous for a contractor to be caught with fat, hold-over inventories.

You not only have to pay the tax, you have to PAY your troops to count your inventory.

You also need a place to put the stuff. Our rents would make you weep.

It quickly gets brutal. So the standard practice -- which you will not believe -- is to throw surplus materials straight into the dumpster.

I've seen $6,000 in minor materials go at a crack. ( by the pallet, too ) ( The foreman got a pat on the back and a bonus for that job. )

Our CraigsList is loaded with surplus building materials ( electric ) that go begging.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

telsa said:


> I have no doubt that such practices occur right under our inspector's noses.
> 
> I have never witnessed it though in all my time here... and some of the outfits were as tight as ticks.
> 
> ...


I worked for an outfit that tossed out $15k in surplus materials on a school job, there were a ton of CO's on the job.

I ended up with $5k worth of stuff, unloaded a lot of it to other EC's I knew that did smaller private work.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Switched said:


> I worked for an outfit that tossed out $15k in surplus materials on a school job, there were a ton of CO's on the job.
> 
> I ended up with $5k worth of stuff, unloaded a lot of it to other EC's I knew that did smaller private work.


Haven't really worked for a company that was that wasteful but sure have worked on jobs with other companies that dumped cart loads of material in the dumpster when cleaning up a site at the end of a job.

Always stocked my garage with those boxes of materials.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I pulled out about 600 feet of #4 thhn out of a walmart/menards job that we turned into a Hobby Lobby. If you don't think I am reusing that your nuts. I had two college kids that summer. I even had them take the thousands of feet of 1 inch conduit and bundle it up. All in all I bet I took $10K worth of **** off that job.
> There is know freaking way any AHJ can tell me I can't use any of it, but I wouldn't worry about it because for one they would never know and two they would never give a ****.
> I still think tes is full of **** and just got caught to far in his bull****ting. I would love to see the amendment.


Reduce, reuse, recycle! We have thousands of feet of used wore that is still in good shape. It can get you out of a bind in a jiffy when you live in the middle of nowhere in the land of "we can have it here tomorrow". Same with used breakers, disconnect switches, starters, etc. Heck, there was a t.i. we did that went from a bank to a real-estate office, and all the boxes and mc were re-used with mc to spare. All we had to buy were colorado jims, devices, wirenuts, and plates. That saved a bundle.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Tes.,,,

I understand what your situation going on in your area .,, 

However where I am in Philippines it kinda common for us to reuse those conduit and conductors as long they are good shape and not damage in any means and yuh I know it the same way in Americian side.,, it not a huge differnt as those guys posted all the details on the forum and I agree with them and they try to do the best as they can.

I know in both NEC and PHEC ( Philippines electrical codes ) they are muted about reusing the materals. the only time it will be scrapped if we know it will be a batsard to pull it out.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Go ahead and try to pull it out, just have a disclaimer in your bid that your not responsible if it gets damaged. Heck, if he wants to pay you to do it, go ahead and try. As far as the PVC conduit, not worth it.


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## bobmane (Apr 7, 2017)

dawgs said:


> Go ahead and try to pull it out, just have a disclaimer in your bid that your not responsible if it gets damaged. Heck, if he wants to pay you to do it, go ahead and try. As far as the PVC conduit, not worth it.


what methods would you try to pull it out?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

bobmane said:


> what methods would you try to pull it out?


Rope or pull grip on to the wires and come along.


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