# AFCIs and Residential remodel work



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Ill start off admitting that I am a lost soul in the residential market.
I have a friend of a friend that is insisting on us bidding a couple of flipper houses.
One is a 1925 era that has been gutted and drywalled in 1989. No wood lath, no interior stucco. The house is roped. 
Question concerning Arc Fault circuits.
The Architect noted that all AFCIs should conform to the 2017 NEC 210.12.
We have a kitchen remodel. All new circuits.
Im tempted to bid it with all of the circuits on AFCIs but, I know there are some exceptions.
Is there a quick and dirty rule of thumb to use for deciding where to use Arc Faults on a remodel project?

The second house is a circa 1951 ranch and is piped. I suspect they use a common neutral as that's all we see here from that era.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't have the book in front of me, but if you don't alter the existing NM cables more than (I think...) 5', then you don't need to add AFCI protection.

Most of the crap in a kitchen and bathroom all need to have both AFCI and GFCI protection now, so it is more cost effective to use a dual purpose breaker instead of an AFCI breaker and a GFCI at the point of use.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank you for the reply.
Every bedroom has extended circuits far beyond the 5' rule. I expect to have quite a few of them.
The existing loadcenter, in the middle of the house, is a Square D QO main lug, no main breaker between it and the meter.
Nice can of worms.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

At least it's something they make AFCI and GFCI breakers for!

Must be a very good friend to want to do a flip!


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.12(A), (B), and (C). The arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20- ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6):


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

WTF is a “similar room”?

No bathrooms? What about outside?


----------



## DashDingo (Feb 11, 2018)

99cents said:


> WTF is a “similar room”?
> 
> No bathrooms? What about outside?



A beat off room.
You don’t need arc fault protection in garages, bathrooms, mechanical rooms, or outside.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

The need for arc faults for remodeling is VERY AHJ dependent. 
There is no universal rule or code.


----------



## Warning (Dec 21, 2018)

The op stated that the install must comply with 2017 code. Arc faults for everything but bathrooms and garages. I dont like them and dont agree with their mandate, however the technology has improved and there are far less nuisance tripping occurrences. The problems i have encountered are when you have multi wire branch circuits in older homes with common "neutral" on 2 single pole breakers because there are no dual function 2 pole AFCI GFCI currently on the market. If the house is in pipe, easy peasy. Pull new wire and make sure you only use 2 wire circuits for everything. It will save a lot of headaches.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> The need for arc faults for remodeling is VERY AHJ dependent.
> There is no universal rule or code.


I agree... But they are wrong. It isn't an opinion. Cali adopts the NEC and makes the changes they want to create the CEC. Each jurisdiction then adopts the CEC and either accepts it as whole or creates their own changes.

In my area, San Francisco and Palo Alto are the two cities that have actually created written modifications to the CEC/NEC. 

The AHJ has to have written documentation of what is acceptable and what is not. So while I agree that they can adjust what is acceptable, they can't simply do it upon a whim, person by person, it must be in writing and typically approved by the building/inspection department.


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Switched said:


> I agree... But they are wrong. It isn't an opinion. Cali adopts the NEC and makes the changes they want to create the CEC. Each jurisdiction then adopts the CEC and either accepts it as whole or creates their own changes.
> 
> In my area, San Francisco and Palo Alto are the two cities that have actually created written modifications to the CEC/NEC.
> 
> The AHJ has to have written documentation of what is acceptable and what is not. So while I agree that they can adjust what is acceptable, they can't simply do it upon a whim, person by person, it must be in writing and typically approved by the building/inspection department.


Hey Switched,
In Santa Clara and San Mateo, I ran into two conflicting requirements for arc faults in panel change projects. In theory you are correct, but it was a lot less screwing around to folllow the AHJ's wishes. On one hand (Santa Clara) it made sense, but in San Mateo; not so much. If all the AHJs would agree, or the CEC spelled out the remodel requirements then we would be golden.

This is more your area of expertise than mine, so you would know more about CEC ammendments and AHJ uniform policy than me.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> Hey Switched,
> In Santa Clara and San Mateo, I ran into two conflicting requirements for arc faults in panel change projects. In theory you are correct, but it was a lot less screwing around to folllow the AHJ's wishes. On one hand (Santa Clara) it made sense, but in San Mateo; not so much. If all the AHJs would agree, or the CEC spelled out the remodel requirements then we would be golden.
> 
> This is more your area of expertise than mine, so you would know more about CEC ammendments and AHJ uniform policy than me.


Can you tell me the specifics? PM me if you can or want to.

The only issue I have had with Santa Clara is a specific inspector, who works for both San Jose and Santa Clara. He knows code.... just not what it means.

Never had a problem with San Mateo (County or City) either.

Totally interested in what it was.


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Warning said:


> The op stated that the install must comply with 2017 code. Arc faults for everything but bathrooms and garages. I dont like them and dont agree with their mandate, however the technology has improved and there are far less nuisance tripping occurrences. The problems i have encountered are when you have multi wire branch circuits in older homes with common "neutral" on 2 single pole breakers because there are no dual function 2 pole AFCI GFCI currently on the market. If the house is in pipe, easy peasy. Pull new wire and make sure you only use 2 wire circuits for everything. It will save a lot of headaches.


Seimens and Square D QO have double-pole arc faults. It took a long time for Square D to make them available. Now I only have to worry about blown light bulbs and my Makita chop saw tripping them out.:vs_mad:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> Seimens and Square D QO have double-pole arc faults. It took a long time for Square D to make them available. Now I only have to worry about blown light bulbs and my Makita chop saw tripping them out.:vs_mad:


Yeah, that was a slight issue a few years back, forgot about it. The deal is though, they were not correctly enforcing the issue with panel replacements and such. We were not altering more than the 5' so we didn't need AFCI protection. 

Won that fight a few times.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

A true flipper is going to try and fob off all changes as old work... which would be grandfathered.

Residential is its own art-form. 

I've yet to meet an electrician that can cross back over into Residential -- and claim happiness.

Track shoes are usually required.


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Switched said:


> Can you tell me the specifics? PM me if you can or want to.
> 
> The only issue I have had with Santa Clara is a specific inspector, who works for both San Jose and Santa Clara. He knows code.... just not what it means.
> 
> ...


Hey Switched,
I am just DYI on my properties in both cities. Santa Clara told me that arc- faults would only be required if I modified any circuits when I upgraded the panel from 100 to 200 Amps. San Mateo was brutal; I had to install single pole arc faults on MWBC's by connecting both hots and the shared neutral to one arc fault breaker. At the time, two pole arc faults were not available. I even had to measure and calculate the load to make sure the neutral would not be overloaded. The place is wired with FMC (1968) so I could pull an additional neutral if needed. But that whole deal was a PITA.


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

telsa said:


> A true flipper is going to try and fob off all changes as old work... which would be grandfathered.
> 
> Residential is its own art-form.
> 
> ...


Gotta love that "old work " clause. Who can do that anymore?


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

EJPHI said:


> Hey Switched,
> I am just DYI on my properties in both cities. Santa Clara told me that arc- faults would only be required if I modified any circuits when I upgraded the panel from 100 to 200 Amps. San Mateo was brutal; I had to install single pole arc faults on MWBC's by connecting both hots and the shared neutral to one arc fault breaker. At the time, two pole arc faults were not available. I even had to measure and calculate the load to make sure the neutral would not be overloaded. The place is wired with FMC (1968) so I could pull an additional neutral if needed. But that whole deal was a PITA.


Damn.. You sleep with someones daughter?

Done more commercial and residential work in Santa Clara than I can remember, Inceptors have been cool 90% of the time.

Back before everyone had 2P AFCi breakers they would let us use whatever panel we wanted, if no 2P AFCI was available, then it wasn't required.


----------



## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

Yeah I alway liked work with Santa Clara.

We should talk more, my DIY bandwith is limited.


----------



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

If this isn't your niche then pass on it IMO.


----------

