# Laundry room circuit and cut in box question?



## Ibewye (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi guys, I work industrial and commercial electric but am wiring up my new home and need some help. Should probably be 2 topics but I'll keep simple. 
1-In the laundry room is the dedicated circuit required also able to feed the washing machine-if not can The 2 circuits share a neutral and go on 2 pole?

2-For derating purposes would the dryer be considered 2 or 3 ccc's? 

3-what do your normally use for a box to rough in dryer receptacle? 

4-I have some deep 3-1/2" SG metal cut in boxes, if I remove the ears and screw into some blocking can is there any reason I can't put up before Sheetrock?

Sorry for multiple questions and thanks for any help...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Ibewye said:


> Hi guys, I work industrial and commercial electric but am wiring up my new home and need some help. Should probably be 2 topics but I'll keep simple.
> 1-In the laundry room is the dedicated circuit required also able to feed the washing machine-if not can The 2 circuits share a neutral and go on 2 pole?
> 
> 2-For derating purposes would the dryer be considered 2 or 3 ccc's?
> ...


1. yes, 20A laundry circuit can be used for washer. (Pretty much what it's for)
2. Run either a 10/3 NM or a #8 al ser for Dryer.
3. 2 gang nail on for flush mount, otherwise stub wire out floor for surface.
4. I don't see why not, but why not buy the right box. It's a few bucks.


----------



## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

4SQUARE said:


> why not buy the right box. It's a few bucks.


Like one of these 2 gang range/dryer rough in boxes. 

https://m.platt.com/platt-electric-...oxes/Carlon/B234ADJC/Products.aspx?pid=564037


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Ibewye said:


> Hi guys, I work industrial and commercial electric but am wiring up my new home and need some help. Should probably be 2 topics but I'll keep simple.
> 1-In the laundry room is the dedicated circuit required also able to feed the washing machine-if not can The 2 circuits share a neutral and go on 2 pole?
> 
> 2-For derating purposes would the dryer be considered 2 or 3 ccc's?
> ...


The dedicated 20 amp circuit is for the washer. There will be no sharing of the neutral unless, possibly the room is a very large room and you NEED multiple circuits to supply additional loads.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Ibewye said:


> 1-In the laundry room is the dedicated circuit required also able to feed the washing machine-if not can The 2 circuits share a neutral and go on 2 pole?


 The laundry room circuit can have the washer and any other receptacles in that room



> 2-For derating purposes would the dryer be considered 2 or 3 ccc's?


 3 ccc 



> 3-what do your normally use for a box to rough in dryer receptacle?


 Definitely a 2 gang box-- the receptacle will work and you need a 2 gang dryer plate



> 4-I have some deep 3-1/2" SG metal cut in boxes, if I remove the ears and screw into some blocking can is there any reason I can't put up before Sheetrock?


 Well your box will be back too far . Turn the ears around and that will hold the box out 1/2" or so.


----------



## Ibewye (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks for all the answers. I'm in the process of running 3/4" conduit across basement then up into 2-4 sq boxes side by side with chase nipple in between. Dryer will get 2 gang mud ring, washer gets single gang, I also fed bathroom circuit straight thru to its own box. 4 circuits-no joints until first receptacles of each circuit. I'm stuck in that gray area where I have tons of material from work but not enough to complete anything end to end. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

#3 not normally a big concern in resi unless you are grouping lots of wires together


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Ibewye said:


> Thanks for all the answers. I'm in the process of running 3/4" conduit across basement then up into 2-4 sq boxes side by side with chase nipple in between. Dryer will get 2 gang mud ring, washer gets single gang, I also fed bathroom circuit straight thru to its own box. 4 circuits-no joints until first receptacles of each circuit. I'm stuck in that gray area where I have tons of material from work but not enough to complete anything end to end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope that Gray Area can't get you fired.


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

you might wanna have a 'joint' and think about it some more!:laughing:


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Ibewye said:


> Thanks for all the answers. I'm in the process of running 3/4" conduit across basement then up into 2-4 sq boxes side by side with chase nipple in between. Dryer will get 2 gang mud ring, washer gets single gang, I also fed bathroom circuit straight thru to its own box. 4 circuits-no joints until first receptacles of each circuit. I'm stuck in that gray area where I have tons of material from work but not enough to complete anything end to end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you piping the entire house?


----------



## Ibewye (Apr 24, 2012)

papaotis said:


> #3 not normally a big concern in resi unless you are grouping lots of wires together



Ironically that's how this all started....at work we run min #10 for any 20 amp circuit so I have a buttload of partial spools. Had bought 10/3 to feed both 1st and 2nd floor dryers and of course I ran about 3' short on wire. Too cheap to buy any more I grabbed some pipe and started across basement, that's when I started trying to figure out what else I could feed, it snowballed from there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Just to clarify, you are talking about an electric dryer right?

Also, I am curious how many outlets you guys are putting on the laundry circuit. I usualy put a douplex receptacle behind the washer and one behind the dryer. If the laundry room is large enough for another receptacle, that receptical would be on another circuit. I am sure that was the way I read it in the past. I also remember seeing pictures depicting it that way. 

Now when I look at both the code book and handbook I don't see it spelled out that way, and no pictures. 

Now below it uses the word outlet(s) meaning one or more. To me that would mean one or two outlets behind the washer and dryer, not all the way around the room feeding general purpose outlets. 

(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number 
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at 
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be pro-
vided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 
210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

Section 210.23(1) requires these cord connected appliances not fastened in place to not exceed 80% of the circuit. Checking my washer and dryer they are 10 and 6 amps for a total of 16 amps which is 80% of the 20 amp circuit. That does not leave anything left if the room was big enough for an ironing board. 

210.23 Permissible Loads

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened 
in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected 
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.


What are your views.


----------



## Ibewye (Apr 24, 2012)

4SQUARE said:


> Are you piping the entire house?



Not really, just a few of the home run. 
I ran an 1-1/4 conduit into junction boxes in the attic which fed the 10 circuits up stairs, had 2 spots where I could run a conduit to a location and pick up 4 circuits. I have a geothermal heating system with radiant floor heating along with hot water tank, HRV system and water filter in the utility room along with electric panel. I ran 4" Nema 12 wire way along the walls to pick up everything which was really clean and convenient. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ibewye (Apr 24, 2012)

cabletie said:


> Just to clarify, you are talking about an electric dryer right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your reply is basically why I asked the question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Ibewye said:


> Your reply is basically why I asked the question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



His reply is not accurate IMO. You can all the receptacles in the laundry area on the same circuit. Nowhere in the NEC does it state that the washer must be on its own circuit


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> His reply is not accurate IMO. You can all the receptacles in the laundry area on the same circuit. Nowhere in the NEC does it state that the washer must be on its own circuit


Yes it does. 
Article 210.11(c)2 Laundry Room Circuits 
In addition to the of number branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one ADDITIONAL 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)required by 210-52(F). THIS CIRCUIT SHALL HAVE NO OTHER OUTLETS. 

Which was stated above and is absolutely correct


----------



## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

I believe Dennis is correct. 210.11(C)(2) says this circuitsshall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle OUTLET(S). All of the receptacles in this area can be on this circuit.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Listen to Mr. Magoo he is right on. :thumbsup:


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> Yes it does.
> Article 210.11(c)2 Laundry Room Circuits
> In addition to the of number branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one ADDITIONAL 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)required by 210-52(F). THIS CIRCUIT SHALL HAVE NO OTHER OUTLETS.
> 
> Which was stated above and is absolutely correct


You are required to have a 20A circuit to laundry area, you can have 1 recepta
cle outlet on that circuit or you can have more. As long as they are in the laundry room they can be on that circuit. You can also bring additional circuits if you want or need.
The "additional" is not referring to other circuits required in the laundry room.


----------



## samc (Oct 19, 2013)

He's commercial like me so probably used to running pipes everywhere. I would personally run a 10/3 for dryer outlet and a regular 12/2 for gfci and what not


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Magoo5150 said:


> I believe Dennis is correct. 210.11(C)(2) says this circuitsshall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle OUTLET(S). All of the receptacles in this area can be on this circuit.


True. I though always wire the washer as a dedicated circuit and any other 110/v receptacles in the laundry room will be on other circuits. But that's just me though.


----------



## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

What if the washer were in the bathroom? Is it considered a laundry room or a bathroom? Can I run 1 circuit to cover all that require 110/v in this room?


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

so the last sentence that says " This circuit shall have no other outlets." means what then?


----------



## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

aftershockews said:


> What if the washer were in the bathroom? Is it considered a laundry room or a bathroom? Can I run 1 circuit to cover all that require 110/v in this room?


No. 210.11 requires certain specified branch circuits are to be provided. If the laundry recp(s) circuit happen to be in a bathroom, it does not negate the bathroom branch circuit, or vice versa.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

markbrady said:


> so the last sentence that says " This circuit shall have no other outlets." means what then?


It means it shall have no other outlets outside the laundry area.


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It means it shall have no other outlets outside the laundry area.


What do you consider the laundry area? I consider the area where the dryer and washer machine to be that area and not the whole room which i believe was the original intent BUT I see there is an opening for other options because the code is being vague imo


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> so the last sentence that says " This circuit shall have no other outlets." means what then?


210.52(F) says *At least* one receptacle outlet shall be installed. 

210.11(C)(2) says the 20A circuit shall supply the laundry receptacle *outlet(s)* 

"The circuit shall have no other outlets" means don't put the lighting or receptacles from another room on that circuit.


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

4SQUARE said:


> 210.52(F) says *At least* one receptacle outlet shall be installed.
> 
> 210.11(C)(2) says the 20A circuit shall supply the laundry receptacle *outlet(s)*
> 
> "The circuit shall have no other outlets" means don't put the lighting or receptacles from another room on that circuit.


Disagree as i see the "laundry area" to be for the washer and dryer only. The area does not mean the whole room imo, The area is not a room to me, lets say you have a washer-dryer in a basement is the basement now the area or room and if so then you need to have outlets every 12 feet all around the basement i mean "laundry area" 
Imagine if an inspector actually said that!!!!


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

markbrady said:


> What do you consider the laundry area? I consider the area where the dryer and washer machine to be that area and not the whole room which i believe was the original intent BUT I see there is an opening for other options because the code is being vague imo


The article has receptacle (s) which means it can be more than one. Surely there are many scenarios that may not fit the bill of a laundry room. My own house I have a w/d in the bathroom but I have a separate circuit for the washer and a separate circuit for the receptacles in the bathroom area. In that case I would not say you could put the washer and bath sink receptacles together however if you have a laundry room then all the receptacles in that room can be on the laundry circuit. Nowhere does it say the washer must have a separate circuit


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

markbrady said:


> Disagree as i see the "laundry area" to be for the washer and dryer only.


Well you can disagree and I am sure there are inspectors who may disagree but IMO you are incorrect. If that were the case then the NEC would say that the washer must be on its own circuit and it does not say that


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> Disagree as i see the "laundry area" to be for the washer and dryer only. The area does not mean the whole room imo, The area is not a room to me, lets say you have a washer-dryer in a basement is the basement now the area or room and if so then you need to have outlets every 12 feet all around the basement i mean "laundry area"
> Imagine if an inspector actually said that!!!!


Of course a washer and dryer in a basement would be considered an area rather than a room, and you would install one or two receptacles on the circuit, but a small room with a washer, dryer and a utility sink, is no doubt a laundry room. In that room you could put 5 receptacles on the 20A circuit.


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

The code does not say "laundry room" either it says laundry area so if the code says laundry area how is that you think you can put outlets from the laundry branch circuit in a "room"


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> The code does not say "laundry room" either it says laundry area so if the code says laundry area how is that you think you can put outlets from the laundry branch circuit in a "room"


Because it's the laundry area


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

4SQUARE said:


> Because it's the laundry area


An area is not a room though ie laundry area 

Room means a part or division of a building enclosed by walls, floor, and ceiling.
Area means part of something


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> An area is not a room though ie laundry area
> 
> Room means a part or division of a building enclosed by walls, floor, and ceiling.
> Area means part of something


But it can be, a laundry room would be the area in the house that is for doing laundry.


----------



## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

4SQUARE said:


> But it can be, a laundry room would be the area in the house that is for doing laundry.



Or it could be the area in a room where the washer and dryer is located and not called a laundry room since the code never says "laundry room." Just an area in a room where laundry is done thus meaning no other outlets for the rest of the room can be on the laundry branch circuit


----------



## Magoo5150 (Mar 1, 2007)

4SQUARE said:


> But it can be, a laundry room would be the area in the house that is for doing laundry.


I have seen 30A stack washer/dryer combos located in the kitchen. This area then became the laundry area and still required the 20A Laundry receptacle circuit.


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

markbrady said:


> Or it could be the area in a room where the washer and dryer is located and not called a laundry room since the code never says "laundry room." Just an area in a room where laundry is done thus meaning no other outlets for the rest of the room can be on the laundry branch circuit


If it's not specifically a laundry room I would agree, and wire it accordingly.


----------



## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

Magoo5150 said:


> I have seen 30A stack washer/dryer combos located in the kitchen. This area then became the laundry area and still required the 20A Laundry receptacle circuit.


Exactly.:thumbsup:


----------



## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> His reply is not accurate IMO. You can all the receptacles in the laundry area on the same circuit. Nowhere in the NEC does it state that the washer must be on its own circuit


 In fact, the 2008 states in part: "at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)" That (s) at the end would indicate one or more receptacle outlets in the laundry can be fed from the required 20a circuit. Not just the washer.


Common sense would dictate if there were a built in ironing board next to the dryer it would be "in the laundry" and this be allowed on the same 20a laundry receptacle outlet circuit. A wall mounted TV and entertainment center 15' across the room would not be considered "in the laundry". It's just common sense to me.


Obviously no lighting outlets would be allowed since it specifically says "receptacle" outlets.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

It just seems odd to me to put other outlets on the laundry circuit since it is close to being maxed out. Most of the time it is probably not even a thought given the size of the laundry room. 

I know I have seen pictures explaining this scenario, because to me it could be worded better. They were probably in the "Code in focus" part of Electrical contractor magazine, or a design book that never got returned to me.

There is one more part of this laundry outlet wording problem. 



> 210.50 General
> (C) Appliance Receptacle Outlets. Appliance receptacle
> outlets installed in a dwelling unit for specific appliances,
> such as laundry equipment, shall be installed within 1.8 m (6
> ft) of the intended location of the appliance.


What that means according to the McGraw Hill Handbook (unenforceable) is that you can add as many outlets as you want on the laundry circuit as long as they are within 6' of the intended "Laundry area". I guess as long as you are passing inspections, everything is good. I was just curious what everyone else was doing.




> Part (C)(2) of 210.11 requires that at least one 20-A branch circuit be provided
> for the one or more laundry receptacles installed, as required by 210.52(F), at
> the laundry location in a dwelling unit. Further, the last sentence of part (C)(2),
> in conjunction with 210.52(F), prohibits use of the laundry circuit for supplying
> ...


You can do a search for the online Handbook (I would not want to get in trouble for posting it). It has a nice picture.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Is a standard washing machine a '_fixed appliance'_ here? ~CS~


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Is a standard washing machine a '_fixed appliance'_ here? ~CS~


No, the washer from our last laundry pair always made a break for it when spinning towels or jeans.


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

btharmy said:


> Like one of these 2 gang range/dryer rough in boxes.
> 
> https://m.platt.com/platt-electric-...oxes/Carlon/B234ADJC/Products.aspx?pid=564037


This is interesting to me; in Canada we use 4 11/16" boxes (or their plastic equivalent). So I guess American dryer receptacles have a slightly different screw arrangement than ours? What do you guys use for range receptacle boxes? (We use 4 11/16" for those too).


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Just did a search and pretty much answered my own question. You guys use these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...le-Power-Outlet-Black-R50-00278-000/202066680

Whereas we use these:

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/30-amp-dryer-receptacle/947947

(They also make those with a metal plate very similar to the US version but just bigger to cover the bigger box. In both cases there is no cover plate, the receptacle incorporates the cover plate.)


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

SparksMcGee said:


> The "american" one you linked to can be bought in Canada if you wanted to.. but it does cost more than the other version and it does also require a cover plate, which I have only ever seen in metal and costs more again.



Yes, I think I've seen them on the shelf. But I've only ever installed (and seen installed) the type that fits on a 4 11/16" box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

