# Help needed - time and material invoice



## donnahhi (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I am the bookkeeper/accountant for General Contractor in South Carolina.

We have been working on a large remodel for the last year and our electrician has submitted bills in writing for time and materials job. He's a great electrician-we've used him for over 10 years. We are closing out the job and trying to get final payment. 

Customer has decided to audit the electricians bill (electrician is on vacation)- Upon review customer found that electrician had double billed for 2 days and that has put the entire invoice into question. I need to show customer that the quantities, time and materials are justified. Short of going back to house and counting everything I am posting here for some insight....Or some help sorting it out. He also buys in bulk to stock warehouse and is having a hard time producing receipts- puts me in a bad spot. I have all other trades documented perfectly- so I have that going for me. 

I have transcribed all of his hand written invoices into a spreadsheet. If anyone wants to check it out and offer assistance or feedback it would be greatly appreciated. 

The project was a complete remodel with 50% or more drywall removed, walls moved, outlets moved. Customer was changing things regularly (also requested we bill t&m instead of fixed estimate)

Thanks for your help.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Submit bill for what is not in question. Wait for Sparky to get home and have a pow-wow with all three parties.


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## donnahhi (Jul 29, 2011)

Customer basically said - if he double billed how can I believe anything? So even though obviously there has been a whole lot of work done, he doesn't want to pay. He knows the electricians records aren't great and is running with it. He thinks he is getting ripped off.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What does your contract state about prices and disputes?


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Customer is trying to get a discount. Reason enough not to do T&M work. 
I agree, he should pay whats not in dispute and settle the rest later. Get ready to be reamed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Welcome to The Big Dog's porch. :laughing:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Maybe he made a mistake on the double billing. Had dates messed up or sent twice.. You have ten years working with him and you are siding with the customer? You're a ****ing dirt bag. Man up, let your balls drop and tell the customer you trust this electrician and there is no problem. You will check with him when he gets back. I wouldn't give you **** for reciepts. I don't have to. I do work and you pay me what we agree on. Did he do the change orders? Yes? No?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Unless its civil work, never twist a single wire nut on a change order unless you are paid up front. Just me saying..


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

This is a forum for electricians. please visit our sister site www.how_to_screw_an_electrician.com


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

LOL I actually clicked that link to see if you set something up, and it took me to a blank page......:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> LOL I actually clicked that link to see if you set something up, and it took me to a blank page......:laughing:


Does that mean you got screwed?

BTW, it's not that hard to post a "web site" without it becoming a link.

www.how to screw an electrician.com


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Does that mean you got screwed?
> 
> BTW, it's not that hard to post a "web site" without it becoming a link.
> 
> www.how to screw an electrician.com


Yes 480 I suppose I could have used Noparse but what fun would that have been I suppose I could also use punctuation or even not respond at all I could also have not quoted Dr Seuss twice in one night Hell I could have even answered this guys question but I digress 


:whistling2:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Fee's*

I didn't see a item for time spent analyzing the fee's of the fee's. Don't forget about all that time trying to track all this.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

That is precisely why residential T&M is illegal in CA. Customer had no idea what the project would cost and now he is complaining over a few hours? Obviously he is not satisisfied with the work. I suggest next time you get a proper take off done, and give a fixed contract price. Get COs signed as they come up, and make a lot more money than T&M billing.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I looked through the pages and some things don't add up. I would say wait for the EC to figure the bill out. Mistakes do happen, I just billed a customer for an inspection that they already paid for. I will make it right and then some.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

This EC has worked for you for 10 years and you don't have his cell number?

I guess you have to ask yourself if he's worth more to you than this customer. My advice would be to send a lein notice to the customer.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

gold said:


> Yes 480 I suppose I could have used Noparse but what fun would that have been I suppose I could also use punctuation or even not respond at all I could also have not quoted Dr Seuss twice in one night Hell I could have even answered this guys question but I digress
> 
> 
> :whistling2:


Yeah but you should have done it 480's way because his way is the ONLY way.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> That is precisely why residential T&M is illegal in CA. Customer had no idea what the project would cost and now he is complaining over a few hours? Obviously he is not satisisfied with the work. I suggest next time you get a proper take off done, and give a fixed contract price. Get COs signed as they come up, and make a lot more money than T&M billing.


California is ********.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If this so-called "audit" has gone this far, you will certainly have to go back and manually count everything, and show exactly where each part was installed.

One of the drawbacks of this type of billing, you have opened yourself up to this type of scrutiny. 

But before you start, you both should agree that if you count =more= items than has been billed for, the customer will have to pay additional for those items, if he expects adjustments if you find less than billed for. Audits go both ways. 

It would probably be best if you wait for the electrician to finish his vacation before tackling this. He will have to, since he'll need the money to pay off the credit cards used to take his vacation .... :laughing:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> California is ********.


Only if you don't properly know how to bid a job.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Only if you don't properly know how to bid a job.


Whatever, but who is the government to tell ME how to run MY business and how I can charge?

Especially when they can't figure out how to keep their own **** in order.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

How do you know if he double billed? Are you a hundred percent sure? Mistakes can be made and if you worked for the guy for 10 years I suspect it may have been an oversight. I would not throw the entire bill into question. 

That being said it wouldn't take much to go count the devices, switches etc, breakers and check those few items.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Whatever, but who is the government to tell ME how to run MY business and how I can charge?


Your argument is invalid. Licenses are to protect the consumer, not us. From the stuff that I hear about doing business in MA, I would take CA any day. The costs of doing business (for a smaller EC) in CA are so small, it's almost funny. 

Step back and think for a second. Damn near everything you do on a daily basis, you are doing it that way, because the government has told you to do it that way.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> ................Damn near everything you do on a daily basis, you are doing it that way, because the government has told you to do it that way.


I was going to say you were wrong about this, but there's a Federal Agent with a gun and cuffs standing behind me telling me I can't.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Your argument is invalid.


Ok, well it's settled.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I say stop posting your subs invoices on public forums and pay him.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Yeah but you should have done it 480's way because his way is the ONLY way.


I don't think he intended to be condescending just ball breaking a bit.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> That is precisely why residential T&M is illegal in CA.


Where did you hear that??


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Man I come home from vacation and you are going to hit me with this?

I gotta tell you something. Here it is are you ready for it? You have been a giant pain in my ass for the last ten years, maybe its high time you take your flakey little so called general contractor monkey outfit and stick it where the sun don't shine.......







Composed on behalf of said foolish time and material charging electrician who doesn't know that its better to get the money for changes before doing them.........


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

B W E said:


> Where did you hear that??


It was in my study guide that I used to get my C10. Granted, that was years ago, but the intent makes sense. The residential customer needs to know an actual cost upfront prior to work beginning. That way there is no discrepancy between the contractor and customer once payment is demanded.

That's not to say they will change the law someday. Look at what happened recently, now they are letting contractors to become LLCs.

edit:
After re-reading the OP, this relationship was between the EC and GC where T&M is legal between the parties. When it is between EC and HO is where there are issues. The GC in this case should have never agreed to T&M, they should have asked for a bid. 

T&M should only be used when there are too many unforeseen variables, like a shutdown. I can't understand why anyone would want to bid T&M anyways, as they are limiting themselves in money making opportunities. 

I got to get back to pulling wire.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

If the client wants to be fair about it the electrician will be paid except for the time and materials in question AND you and everyone else will be paid. If the client is looking to cheat you, nobody will be paid until this "audit" is complete and NEGOTIATED. The sad fact is that there are people who will look you in the eye, shake your hand in agreement and sign a contract and it means nothing to them.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> It was in my study guide that I used to get my C10. Granted, that was years ago, but the intent makes sense. The residential customer needs to know an actual cost upfront prior to work beginning. That way there is no discrepancy between the contractor and customer once payment is demanded.
> 
> That's not to say they will change the law someday. Look at what happened recently, now they are letting contractors to become LLCs.


Have you ever seen any legit documentation on it? I've been looking and can't find a think, except for a handful of miscellaneous forum posts saying basically "I heard it's not legal....."

How is that any different than mechanics and lawyers that also charge hourly?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

B W E said:


> Have you ever seen any legit documentation on it? I've been looking and can't find a think, except for a handful of miscellaneous forum posts saying basically "I heard it's not legal....."


I'll see if I cant find it in the B&P code later this weekend. "T&M" is not actually worded in code. It says something along the lines that a contract has to have a firm price. Language could obviously be inserted for COs and extras.



> How is that any different than mechanics and lawyers that also charge hourly?


Mechanics have a posted labor rate at the desk, but they use their flat rate book the majority of the time. If you drop your truck off to get the tranny looked at, you will immediately sign the diagnostic fee form. They will then call you and give you an updated price depending on what they find. Every so often they will call you again. But you always know what the costs are going to be. They are using their hourly rate and multiplying it by the labor units in their book (or computer). Imagine you need a new tranny, so you drop off your truck, and all they tell you is "we'll fix it. Parts plus labor". You see on the board $85 an hour, so your thinking it should take a half a day plus $400 for a rebuilt tranny. Just under a thousand. What if they put a guy on it all week long, now it's $4k. That ain't gonna fly.

My lawyer keeps me up to date. I know his hourly and his offices paralegal fees. I know he bills in 0.1 hour increments.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> I'll see if I cant find it in the B&P code later this weekend. "T&M" is not actually worded in code. It says something along the lines that a contract has to have a firm price. Language could obviously be inserted for COs and extras.
> 
> Mechanics have a posted labor rate at the desk, but they use their flat rate book the majority of the time. If you drop your truck off to get the tranny looked at, you will immediately sign the diagnostic fee form. They will then call you and give you an updated price depending on what they find. Every so often they will call you again. But you always know what the costs are going to be. They are using their hourly rate and multiplying it by the labor units in their book (or computer). Imagine you need a new tranny, so you drop off your truck, and all they tell you is "we'll fix it. Parts plus labor". You see on the board $85 an hour, so your thinking it should take a half a day plus $400 for a rebuilt tranny. Just under a thousand. What if they put a guy on it all week long, now it's $4k. That ain't gonna fly.
> 
> My lawyer keeps me up to date. I know his hourly and his offices paralegal fees. I know he bills in 0.1 hour increments.


Gotcha. I found it in the B&P code, section 7159. Basically, for a HI contract you MUST have a total price, obviously with language allowing for extras, changes, etc. There is apparently a "workaround" if you really want to do it T&M.... Scheduled Progress payments would be based on T&M, and the contract would have a Maximum Cost, which would be the fixed price. What is suggested is once the project is completed, the difference between the max price and the actual price is called the "savings" and the savings are split between the EC and the HO, based on an agreed upon split. So say the total actual cost is $8k and max price was $10k. If the agreed split as was 70/30, the EC would get $1,400 (total of $9,400) and homeowner gets the remaining $600. Seems doable, just a PIA.

I never knew T&M was illegal (only in 6 states)..... Thanks for the heads up.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Only if you don't properly know how to bid a job.


No California is basically a ******** place all around.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Wow!We just said aloha to our guests from honolulu that came for my girl's grad party.Where does somebody that lives in a vactionland go to on a get away?


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