# House Bid-Help!



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

I live in a small town (3100) and recently recieved plans to bid on my first new home. The house will be 4109 sq. ft.-It is 2 story.-

I run a 1 (sometimes 2) man shop. I started my company in Oct. 2010 and since this is my first home to bid, I thought Id jump on ET and get some advice on bidding..I.E.-Price per sq. ft., etc.

Any help will be appreciated. 

The elec. prints I was given to bid from were drawn by an architect, not an electrical engineer.

I was told this and I guess I could tell by the little things that were diff. about this set compared to others Ive worked off of at another company I worked for where we wired homes. 

There are Quads shown in the legend, but no quads shown ANYWHERE in this giant house. 
There is a main/sub panel shown in the legend, but not anywhere on the print.
There are NO notes as to what size and type of recessed (can) lights are to be used. (But they are shown on the print throughout the house)

The H.O. is a good friend of mine and I dont want to overstep the "chain of command" and be taboo, but I called him to get specifics on the recepts and the can lights. The H.O. asked for 2 bids- 1) A bid with the halogen can lights (as advised by contractor in a previous conversation) and non-T.R. recepts. and 2) A bid with LED can lights and T.R. recepts.

So this is where I need help..Do you do a breakdown of EVERY device,canlight,etc. used, or is there a more generalized way to go about doing the bid?

I will have my helper with me, so it will be a 2 man job.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Have you asked your helper how much to charge for the job yet?


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Have you asked your helper how much to charge for the job yet?


?-whyd youd ask that?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Make a stock list add up the cost add your mark up.

Figure a rough idea how much time then add some time for all the BS on the job.

Find out how much the permit fee is add more time for that getting the permit and going to the inspections .

If they want non TR Receptacles add $100.


Give them a grand total price only do not break down anything it is not there business what your labor rate is and it is not there business what your stock costs are..

You mark up your stock enough to support your business.....:thumbup:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Make a stock list add up the cost add your mark up.
> Give them a grand total price only do not break down anything it is not there business what your labor rate is and it is not there business what your stock costs are..


Ditto that.

If the prints don't specify, you get to pick the cheapest thing you want. Specify the can you intend to use, and if they want different, that's a change order. Put the panel where it's easiest for you. If they want it somewhere else, that's also a change order.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Make a stock list add up the cost add your mark up.
> 
> Figure a rough idea how much time then add some time for all the BS on the job.
> 
> ...


No permits/inspections required where home is being built.

And dont you mean add $100 FOR t.r. recepts since they cost more?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> No permits/inspections required where home is being built.
> 
> And dont you mean add $100 FOR t.r. recepts since they cost more?


No, I think he's saying to add 100 bucks, because he anticipates liability trouble if you don't use TR.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Do you have the capability to post the plans? It would be fun for some of us to work up our price for it in this thread.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Ditto that.
> 
> If the prints don't specify, you get to pick the cheapest thing you want. Specify the can you intend to use, and if they want different, that's a change order. Put the panel where it's easiest for you. If they want it somewhere else, that's also a change order.


Well being a 1 man shop and staying busy, plus the fact the HO is a good friend, I am trying to get it all worked out in the beginning so I have no change orders. I understand where you are coming from, but Im just trying to show true diligence.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Do you have the capability to post the plans? It would be fun for some of us to work up our price for it in this thread.


I would, but HOW?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> I would, but HOW?


Were they provided to you in PDF? Upload it with the "manage attachments" button when you reply to the thread.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

That would be the one with the little paper clip.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Were they provided to you in PDF? Upload it with the "manage attachments" button when you reply to the thread.


No, I met with the GC yesterday and got them.


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Digital cam, upload pics:whistling2:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

JohnR said:


> Digital cam, upload pics:whistling2:


Ill give it a shot.

While I take the pics, how 'bout you give me a brief synopsis on how to post those pics on ET. (short version)


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Ill give it a shot.
> 
> While I take the pics, how 'bout you give me a brief synopsis on how to post those pics on ET. (short version)



Look here....http://www.electriciantalk.com/f18/how-post-photos-images-2011-update-19925/

If i can do it anyone can...:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

*See if this worked...*

This is the first floor.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

This is the second floor.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

pictures are hard to see, but it gives a good idea.


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Price*

I came up with $15,672.00


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Cletis said:


> I came up with $15,672.00


Former boss gave me a price per sq ft. 
Using that alone, I got $18,490.50


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Price*

I used a proprietary formula that incorporated paid in cash, no afci's, no warranty. I'd be a few thousand higher if totally legit.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Cletis said:


> I used a proprietary formula that incorporated paid in cash, no afci's, no warranty. I'd be a few thousand higher if totally legit.


Proprietary? 
If totally legit?

and there will be AFCI's


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Legit?*

How can it be totally legit if your not pulling a permit ? 


I'm assuming the H.O. is cheap and has no respect for you as well. That's why he want's to divide material and labor and cut you out of your markup as well. 

AFCI's Just add $50 per circuit then

If it was really totally legit with permits and all I'd probably be around 18k


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Cletis said:


> How can it be totally legit if your not pulling a permit ?
> 
> 
> I'm assuming the H.O. is cheap and has no respect for you as well. That's why he want's to divide material and labor and cut you out of your markup as well.
> ...


No inspections..Permits are required by the city.
Nobody said he wanted to divide material and labor or cut my markup...whered you pull that from?


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*thread*

been thread surfing. splitting must have been on some other thread I was on. 

I've never heard of pulling a permit to build but no inspections? 

I'd be between 17k-18k then


----------



## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

There are items on the plan legend that are not on the plans because an architect will attach a boilerplate legend to the plans. Don't let that throw you.
Because this is for a friend, I would price it out as planned and also make some recommendations and price that as well. For instance, I like to use a regular 6" can for general lighting. You can put almost any kind of lamp in them (including a cap par halogen) If you use a 4" mr-16 fixture they cost more and you are stuck with them. That would not include specialty lighting, like for art or display. Just make friendly suggestions, no need to make it seem like the architect is clueless.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Proprietary?
> If totally legit?
> 
> and there will be AFCI's


Take a look at the code book depending on what cycle you guys are on in texas regardless of inspections you should be following the NEC if you not then it is your license and reputation...

Both AFCI'S and type TR'S are required.:thumbsup:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Take a look at the code book depending on what cycle you guys are on in texas regardless of inspections you should be following the NEC if you not then it is your license and reputation...
> 
> Both AFCI'S and type TR'S are required.:thumbsup:


True..Both are required. 

In small Texas towns, youre rep. is VERY important.

I work as though there are inspections.:thumbsup:


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

egads said:


> There are items on the plan legend that are not on the plans because an architect will attach a boilerplate legend to the plans. Don't let that throw you.
> Because this is for a friend, I would price it out as planned and also make some recommendations and price that as well. For instance, I like to use a regular 6" can for general lighting. You can put almost any kind of lamp in them (including a cap par halogen) If you use a 4" mr-16 fixture they cost more and you are stuck with them. That would not include specialty lighting, like for art or display. Just make friendly suggestions, no need to make it seem like the architect is clueless.


Never heard of "boilerplate" legend.

Im pushing for general purpose 5" (or 6") LED cans and 4" over kit. island and in smaller areas. After speaking with the HO he liked the idea of not having to change the lamps in 50 cans.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

So those who have posted estimates they have come up with, are those prices with halogen cans and TR recepts or with LED cans and TR cans?


----------



## TxElectrician (May 19, 2008)

Sparky,
Don't get too caught up in what others would charge. It has no bearing on what you need to charge.
It's really not that hard to figure your price, just a little time consuming at first. It looks like you started well, already did a take off of the devices and fixtures. Now just lay out your circuits and figure your wire, service and misc. material. Add your required overhead and profit.

Go over everything and figure how long you think it will take for labor. Remember, it never goes as fast as you would like when you're running a business and doing the work too. They're are a few good books out there that have labor units for individual items - I wouldn't use those exclusively- but they will give you a good starting point, and you can adjust them over time to match your company's output.

I would stay away from any square foot pricing- just too many varibles to be profitable. For the most part the size of the home is irrevelant.

Wire to code, regardless if the owner doesn't want to. If he won't pay for compliant install pass on the project.

Best of luck to you.

On your proposal spell out what cans you are providing


----------



## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Pictures are hard to see, although looks as if i would be 18-22000, i would also add an aditional $100/ recessed light if the h.o wants to go led, and always use tr, they are mandatory in a house in canada.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Take your highest material cost soup to nuts, tax it , add 15% and then times it by 3.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

TxElectrician said:


> Sparky,
> Don't get too caught up in what others would charge. It has no bearing on what you need to charge.
> It's really not that hard to figure your price, just a little time consuming at first. It looks like you started well, already did a take off of the devices and fixtures. Now just lay out your circuits and figure your wire, service and misc. material. Add your required overhead and profit.
> 
> ...


Ive laid out a stock list of materials I can think of with a rough estimate of quantity.
I am going to prepare 1 bid with halogen and 1 with led cans.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

arni19 said:


> Pictures are hard to see, although looks as if i would be 18-22000, i would also add an aditional $100/ recessed light if the h.o wants to go led, and always use tr, they are mandatory in a house in canada.


why add an ADDITIONAL $100 for each led can light? Thats about an additional $5000. 

???????


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Take your highest material cost soup to nuts, tax it , add 15% and then times it by 3.


'soup to nuts'?


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Not to be a **** but It really blows my mind how many guys decided to go into business for themselves but have no idea how to figure out their operating cost..? donesnt anyone do a business plan before they start out..? Talk to an accountant..? take a 101 small business course..? sorry its a topic that gets beaten to death..everyone is going to come up with a different answer. I think a lot of guys already know what they are going to charge they just want to see if they could have made more....


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

If your gonna include a bid for LED cans you should include a comparisin chart of halogen bulbs vs LED in terms of savings, this might give them an incentive to take the LED plung. use your local POCO KWH rates for your chart... Good luck.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

captkirk said:


> If your gonna include a bid for LED cans you should include a comparisin chart of halogen bulbs vs LED in terms of savings, this might give them an incentive to take the LED plung. use your local POCO KWH rates for your chart... Good luck.


As stated in an earlier post, I have already spoken with the HO about the LED cans. He knows they cost more,no lamp changes,etc...He still thinks the LED idea is a good one. OF COURSE Im going to include a comparison chart. 
As far as that other post you made, no offense taken. I dont think youre a ****. I just didnt have the time or money to take a course before I had to start the business. I DONT know the figure yet and Im not asking to "see if I could make more", Im asking to get a better feel of bidding and learn some tips to arrive at a final price. 
Havent you ever set out to do something and needed to ask for help or advice? Or should we start calling you 'captperfect' instead?:whistling2::notworthy:


----------



## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

sparky723 said:


> why add an ADDITIONAL $100 for each led can light? Thats about an additional $5000.
> 
> ???????


Yes it is, and i make $50 per unit to upgrade the potlights to led, puttin the led's in makes the homeowner 160$ back over the life of the led fixture ( due to energy costs/ changing of bulbs) so its an easy sell to any homeowner that plans on stayingnin the home for awhile. I did a house recently with 70 pot lights for a rancher, all of which are led. I'm a business and i love mark up. If i were giving them away for free i'd be a charity.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> ?-whyd youd ask that?


Two reasons. One was because it was at about 6:00 am and I am mr grumpy at that hour. Two was because you joined this forum in 2008 and have over 200 posts and still you don't know how people are gonna act when you start asking about a residential sq foot price? Come on......


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> 'soup to nuts'?


From the wearherhead all the ways down to the last receptacle plate. Many big shops out here bid that way. I myself do a take off and then this method and then average.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Two reasons. One was because it was at about 6:00 am and I am mr grumpy at that hour. Two was because you joined this forum in 2008 and have over 200 posts and still you don't know how people are gonna act when you start asking about a residential sq foot price? Come on......


Well, I cant help what time it was where you were, but the time I posted that was 12:28 in the afternoon and you posted at 12:31 pm. So where does 6 am come from? No excuse there....

And I joined the forum in 2008..but started my business in Oct 2010....and Im just now asking for advice on this subject now , in June 2011...So why WOULD I know how people are "going to act" about a certain subject until I ask them about it?

Its funny how the 'regulars' on here have been cordial enough to help, but there always has to to be a smart a** in the bunch who sends the thread off course. If you dont have any constructive advice, then dont post a reply. Its that simple.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

There look to be around a hundred or so can lights in there. That is a big house for your first one. I would add at least 40% more labor than you think. I also would not do anything that was not up to at least the 2008 NEC.
I would be around $25,0000 with the recessed lights but no fixtures, gas furnace and power co bringing power to the house.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> There look to be around a hundred or so can lights in there. That is a big house for your first one. I would add at least 40% more labor than you think. I also would not do anything that was not up to at least the 2008 NEC.
> I would be around $25,0000 with the recessed lights but no fixtures, gas furnace and power co bringing power to the house.


Thank you.

There are 49 can lights total. The rest are other fixtures.
I have estimated 1 month for labor (me and helper each).
The power will be ran underground from a pole by the street approx. 200' away. I would do the trenching,etc.
The HO is burying a propane tank for his gas.
It is indeed a big house, but since I dont get homes very often and this is a great chance for me to get my feet wet on my own with houses, Im jumping on it. Theres a first time for everything, right?
The more and more thought I put into my bid, the more the price goes up.:laughing:
Thanks alot for your input.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I think I would still be around that price. take off 3 grand for the 50 less can lights and add 3 grand for trenching, pipe and wire.
Itemize your quote but don't give prices. List those 49 cans so when there are 75 installed you can get that extra $2,000
Try to get some money up front or at the very least let them know you will be billing out 75 to 80% at rough-in.There is not enough money in houses to have to wait for your money.
Good Luck


----------



## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

What i do for any home is put together a price for the service. Then i charge for all boxes by the box to bring it to code, 220v boxes have a different rate than a 120v box. All GFCI's and AFCI breakers are billed separately. Anything beyond that is a change order and any fixture/device upgrade has to be billed separately with mark up, this includes additional labor for certain installs such as recessed lights. An example would be devices, lets say i estimate for basic receptacles and toggle switches and they opt for decor. Thats a change order and they will be billed separately for the new devices with my mark up. If i install a ceiling fan but they opt for a fan/light switch to control it then i hit them for two change orders, one for the switch and one for the light. I obviously already wired it with 3-wire and pre wired the fan but i still charge a change order for the fan anyway. This is how we make money.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Well, I didnt win the bid.

Pretty dissappointed because these size homes dont get built in my small town except about every 10 years. 

The GC said he never called me back because my bid was so far out there that he didnt think calling me back would matter. 

He said the guy who won the bid will do it for 17K+.
My bid was 26K.

When my former boss gave me the price of $4.50 per sq.ft., I guess that was turnkey. Is that right?

I wasnt just a little off, I was WAY off. I wasnt trying to make a big profit, I just figured up my material cost and then estimated how long it would take me and my helper-multiplied time by rate and added that to the material cost.

Obviously, this is not the formula to use. I shouldve just simply said $4.50 x 4,109 sq. ft= $18490.50

At least I wouldve been ALOT closer and probably won the bid due to the fact I live 2-3 miles from the jobsite compared to the other guys 60+ miles hed have to drive daily-and Im a friend of the homeowner. 

The extra $1k wouldnt be as big of a deal as $9k did.

I wished I had gotten this job, but I know everything happens for a reason.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

$9K is a big difference, if you estimated the job to cover all aspects of the job and leave room for profit then i would not worry about the loss of the job. Being a friend you will find out in the end just what the final price will be for him. Either this guy can work for a much lower profit level or he is not including everything that should be. I myself have lost jobs where my competitor estimated the job with only one receptacle per room, no 3-ways, no closet lights, no 220v circuits, etc. He would obviously beat out everyone and then hit the HO with change orders to bring the home to code. In the end the HO would pay more for often less work because they did not read the contract very well and did not go over with the contractor what work would be performed.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

When you said a month for labor, did you mean two men 40 hrs a week for 4 weeks? 320 hrs total? I think I could rough the house in 100 hrs alone more or less. And trim out in 30 hrs. Add 8 hrs for the underground service. I'm at 138 man hrs @ $75 is $10350.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

woodchuck2 said:


> $9K is a big difference, if you estimated the job to cover all aspects of the job and leave room for profit then i would not worry about the loss of the job. Being a friend you will find out in the end just what the final price will be for him. Either this guy can work for a much lower profit level or he is not including everything that should be. I myself have lost jobs where my competitor estimated the job with only one receptacle per room, no 3-ways, no closet lights, no 220v circuits, etc. He would obviously beat out everyone and then hit the HO with change orders to bring the home to code. In the end the HO would pay more for often less work because they did not read the contract very well and did not go over with the contractor what work would be performed.


Woodchuck, I hear what you saying, I cant wait to hear if he does the change order trick on the HO. I know $9K is alot but I tried and missed the mark. Ive been on house jobs before but never been involved with bidding one.


----------



## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

backstay said:


> When you said a month for labor, did you mean two men 40 hrs a week for 4 weeks? 320 hrs total? I think I could rough the house in 100 hrs alone more or less. And trim out in 30 hrs. Add 8 hrs for the underground service. I'm at 138 man hrs @ $75 is $10350.


Yes. That was an estimate. Looking back Im sure we couldve done it in shorter time. I screwed the pooch. Would you agree that the $4.50 per sq ft. is for turnkey job?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Yes. That was an estimate. Looking back Im sure we couldve done it in shorter time. I screwed the pooch. Would you agree that the $4.50 per sq ft. is for turnkey job?


I don't estimate by sq ft. No two houses are the same.


----------

