# Elevators



## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

I need help on the intent and requirements of Article 620.51. After reading it several times and while I am sure everyone has a NEC, I am including it just in case:

*620.51 Disconnecting Means*.
A single means for disconnecting all ungrounded main power supply conductors for each unit shall be provided and be designed so that no pole can be operated independently. Where multiple driving machines are connected to a single elevator, escalator, moving walk, or pumping unit, there shall be one disconnecting means to disconnect the motor(s) and control valve operating magnets.
*(A) Type*. The disconnecting means shall be an enclosed externally operable fused motor circuit switch or circuit breaker capable of being locked in the open position. The disconnecting means shall be a listed device.
*(B) Operation*. No provision shall be made to open or close this disconnecting means from any other part of the premises. If sprinklers are installed in hoistways, machine rooms, control rooms, machinery spaces, or control spaces, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to automatically open the power supply to the affected elevator(s) prior to the application of water. No provision shall be made to automatically close this disconnecting means. Power shall only be restored by manual means.
*(C) Location*. The disconnecting means shall be located where it is readily accessible to qualified persons.

It reads as though it needs to be installed like a Fire pump. Which I am sure it is not. If installed where is the shunt trip to be located? What is the exact location of the disconnecting means on the premises? This discussion is generating a lot of debate in my office and with several contractors. There is also several elevators within my jurisdiction that is waiting on this debate.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Every job I have done the disconnect is on the wall adjacent to the pump/control unit. Qualified persons would mean those providing service/maintenance on the equipment.


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

What about the shunt trip?


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

james, are you a electrician? elevators are more than a disc. you got fire alarm, cab/fan disc., pit stuff, and whatever else elev. inspector wants. hydro or rope? what makes that shunt trip? lots of stuff to consider


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

Yes i am an electrician, please read the question and the NEC requirement. I understand all the misc. stuff i am specifically asking about the Disconnecting means, shunt trip and the location. I am trying to keep this generic and not influence anyones point of view. Thanks for asking though


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

both disc(equip. power and cab lites/venilator fan) go in equip. room and shunt trip goes in elec panel(duh!) elevators should be wired by QUALIFIED electricians. sorry james.if you have to ask this basic question , you ain't qualified.


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

you are missing the question. i did not want to give away what should be the answer but if you do not read the question then i will detail it a little more. The state elevator inspector has said that the shunt trip cannot be located in the machine room. the shunt trip is a intergal part of the disconnecting means. he thinks that the sprinkler when engerized inside the room will make the elevator work and there fore does not want the shunt trip inside the machine room. The code is specific with the location of the disconnecting means. as stated in my above help request under art 620.51 it cannot be located any other place on the premises. so where do you think that the disconnecting means should be located. is the NEC indicating that it is in the machine room or in the main electrical equipment room??? please take the time to read the entire question before passing judgement.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

disc. SWITCH goes in elev equipment room. shunt trip BREAKER goes in elec. room. disc switch is just that. a SERVICE DISCONNECT SWITCH. SHUNT TRIP BREAKER is controled by fire alarm system and "trips" after elev auto returns to egress floor. sprinkler got nothing to do with it. some elev inspectors dont allow sprinkler head in elev room. hope i got it this time.


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## patrick35205 (Jul 12, 2008)

I am also from alabama and dealing with these new issues the state elevator inspecter has come up with. The controller 'disconect' is what is shunted in my case and must be located outside of the equipment room, then tied to a disconect inside the room.


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

the code requirements are that the disconnecting means as described in art 620.51 is the same one dicussed in A-C. The controller disconnet according to the code cannot be located in any other part of the premise. Reading the code requirements word for word how are you allowed to have two locations for the disconnect means?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

jamesvcampbell said:


> the code requirements are that the disconnecting means as described in art 620.51 is the same one dicussed in A-C. The controller disconnet according to the code cannot be located in any other part of the premise. Reading the code requirements word for word how are you allowed to have two locations for the disconnect means?


You don't have two locations, there is a disconnect in the equipment room and a breaker (shunt trip) that feeds the disconnect in a distribution panel elsewhere in the facility.


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 25, 2008)

FYI - Fire water sprinkler systems have a "flow switch". If a sprinkler head pops, a vane inside the water pipe will move and this activates a microswitch. 

These normally have a couple of sets of contacts.

So the file alarm can be wired to one set of contacts (if water flows, fire alarm trips, and relay in fire alarm box is wired to elevators - a fire signal to the elevators brings all the elevators to the 1st floor).

Then the second set of contacts can be wired to disconnect power or whatever.

Note that water pressure can fluctuate, activating the flow switch, so for this there is a delay setting on the flow switch so only a constant flow of water will trip the alarm and whatever else is connected.

This flow switch is typically located at the main fire sprinkler supply pipe, so if ANY fire sprinkler in the building pops, then this switch would be activated.

I suppose flow switches for just the sprinklers in the elevator shafts could be installed.

BUT! If there is a fire, would you want to cut power to the elevators TRAPPING the people inside?

Or might it be a better idea to FIRST bring the elevators to the first floor, let the people get out of the elevators, THEN cut power?

Here are what the flow switches look like...
http://www.systemsensor.com/training/sprinkler/images/slides/slide9.gif


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Billy_Bob said:


> FYI - Fire water sprinkler systems have a "flow switch". If a sprinkler head pops, a vane inside the water pipe will move and this activates a microswitch.
> 
> These normally have a couple of sets of contacts.
> 
> ...


There is a reason and logic to the signs that say "Incase of fire use stairs".


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

randomkiller please explain the two locations as you see it. is the shunt trip disconnect in the machine room and the feeder for this disconnect in the main electrical eq. room, or is the shunt trip disconnect in the main electrical eq room and just a disconnect in the machine room. the code says only one means of disconnect is allowed and cannot be located any other place on the premises


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

jamesvcampbell said:


> randomkiller please explain the two locations as you see it. is the shunt trip disconnect in the machine room and the feeder for this disconnect in the main electrical eq. room, or is the shunt trip disconnect in the main electrical eq room and just a disconnect in the machine room. the code says only one means of disconnect is allowed and cannot be located any other place on the premises


 
The shunt trip breaker is located in an electrical panel location that feeds the service disconnect that is located in the elevator equipment room.


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

where do you find that information i need code numbers not just somones standard of installation.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

doesn't the " owner" handle that part? anyways james elev are great money for our co. lots of things inspector wants are NOT on prints so they're chg orders. good luck


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

*elevator disco*

well first everyone told you the correct info where!! but here is were its found , 620 .51 tells you its a disconnect in the machine room . the definition of a disconnect is article 100 a device means by which conductors can be disconnected from the source of supply .the supply is the breaker that sends power to the disco , shunt trip is a build code ,fire marshall stuff its normally done this way heat detector in pit or heat detector in elev. machine room ,trips shunt trip coil in breaker in the panel that feeds the disco fuse with kr5 rejection clips fused disco in the elevator machine room ,every motor in the nec code has a disco in sight of moto ,even the hydro or cable elevator has disconnects in the penthouse , read a17 1 , 2008 safety code for elevators and escalators its the same example of the nec , but only people who work on elevators use this not electricians we just use the nec code which is good enough for your install , call your local electrical dept they tell you or your local fire marshall they tell the contractor what is what on every job we do. they have the last word if you dont trust what a common electrician like me tells you ? general electric makes a combination breaker disconnect just for elevators , the shunt trip can be in the machine room if you want its has the fire alarm control relay for the heat detectors built inside,it has the shunt breaker inside with fuses also inside in addition its a one package deal. we use this on high rise jobs here in orlando passed elevator and local electrical inspections fine. if thers a fire on the first floor the cab gos to the second floor opens up and sits there until the fire dept gets there if thers a fire above the 2 or 35 th floor than the cab or cabs in just that shaft go to first floor doors open up and it sits there , heat detectors in the pit is the key to this and also the smoke in the top of shaft or shafts , or heat detector in machine room , after shunt tripped only the fire dept can reset the breaker and operate the elevators if the building is on fire no one gets stuck in the cabs . the shunt breaker can be in electrical room or in machine room florida code what do you want ?


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks Nick but i am still having some problems. I posted the article you quoted in my initial posting. 620.51 says that there is to be a single means of disconnecting that is the first question i need answered. (B) indicates that it connot be installed on any other part of the premises (machine room i am quessing) which you point out that i am correct with that assumption. i understand that the shunt trip is a add when a sprinkler is installed in the machine room. The state elevator inspector is demanding that the shunt trip disconnect be removed from that machine room. I believe that the NEC has the last word. what is you opinion on the entire wording of article 620.51 to include (a) (b) and (c) I would like to talk about this on the phone my powers of e-mailing and explaining my position are very poor. You can email your phone # to [email protected] or give me yours and I will send you my phone number.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

James ,iam just a jr electrician not a good code buff, i just read and interpret what i see ,but if the state elevator inspector does not want that shunt breaker in that machine room ,than i would say its best to listen to him , the codes and rules are different in some states , i only know what we do in florida and was just trying to help you , but if that state inspector is set in his ways , thats is what it is to be . my insite into the code says nothing on location of shunt trip breakers so as my way of thinking it can go anywhere you want as a elevator room its only for personnel who are qualified to be in that space like owner ,elevator company or the fire dept, has the only key. so i dont know why but we have sprinklers in our machine rooms and in pits and it does not matter ,and have a state elevator inspection and ottis elevator company install the elevators , when they say one location yes i see one shunt trip breaker in one location only thats so the fire dept can go to one location when theres a fire you dont want to be running around looking for a breaker ,most jobs we do the fire dept come to the job test the fire system and we meaning electricians put up a building plan have a plan of the main electrical room and locations of main or mains disconnects and shunts for elevators with locations for the fire marshall in large buildings this is a rule this is mounted to the wall at the fire ann main panel in the security room and the elevator recall panel . this may be a new rule iam thinking it may mean if water gets into electrical stuff in the space they dont want the fire dept in a unsafe condition ? but iam like i said just a simple electrician and not one to answer that question thats for a person with a little bit more elevator code then i can give you. iam thinking if we have[ sprinklers in the main electrical rooms] so what is the inspectors issue must be a new rule ? ,sorry iam not much help take care best to ya let us know how it turns out ?


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

thanks Nick for your honesty. it sounds as if you are on your way to being more than a jr electrician. my problem is that i do not let someone use AHJ unles it is backed up by a written code requirement. that rule book (NEC)was written so we ALL are aware of how to play the game. i do not allow anyone to change the rules to fit there sand box unless it is written an approved by a council. i believe that we as electricians should not allow inspectors to push their ideas. They are suppose to use the code book. again thank you very much for the debate.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

sorry to disagree james. elevator inspectors dont give a rats @ss about the NEC. to them elevator code is primary .


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

paul ,you are most correct , every year i see changes ,elevator inspectors they are gods and when they say this is it and the owner or contractor looks at my boss ,and we do or die at that moment , and its always something simple we do it to get done its not worth talking to them they are set in there ways .the fire marshall gos there way the contractor gos there way the owner gos there way james i think like you think i dont like some of the rules that we go by and would if i could change it but i follow as we have to. some engineers have some strange specs and the nec has some strange ways and means i guess thats electrical and just laugh about it, thats all we can do .,take care best to ya:thumbsup:


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

I'll throw my two cents in: 1. the nec does not have the final say in this matter, 2. it is a building code issue, 3. the state fire marshall has the final say so on all matters concerning building/fire/safety codes. So contact your state fire marshall for the detail of where, what and how this is to be accomplished. Then discuss with the inspector of what the best way to correct what you have already done to pass inspection and start saving money and chalk this up to a learning experince.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

if ya think about it if water is flowing in the elevator machine room then its on fire they only have heat detectors in machine rooms so its hot and burning down .so the fire dept is already there putting it out ,and the power is off they are not going to turn it back on , the fire alarm ann panel will show them the fire location , where the fire is at in the building and if water gets into the elevator disconnect well its not going to turn on its going to blow up . even if someone turns it back on ! even if its not blown up the shunt is tripped , if they turn it back on its going to trip again . due to the fire alarm control, but it will not come on buy itself the shunt trip is tripped .it must be turned on by a person manually ,no firemen is going to turn on a breaker if water is flowing there. they are putting out the fire at this time , and the fire pump is running now and the emergency generator is now running due to the fire pump running when the sprinkler head gos off it is a major fire ,so i dont see his point of view must be a new rule il ask ottis elevator what it is they know every new code or rulen ?


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

i agree with some of this but it is always about litigation and what 12 people will decide on. the NEC is the bare mininmum requirements to a safe electrical installation the NEC will win and it is apart of the building codes (in my city anyway). i go with the logic of Nick. The Codes we have adopted have the final say not somones idea of what they say. These rules where written so some FM or Elev Inspector can rule with a dictatorship. I will fight


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

james, i think you're looking at this elev thing the wrong way. i've done more elev than most and NEVER had NEC issue with elev insp. do you do your elev off of APPROVED drawings? just do it according to prints and then let elev. insp. add his stuff.of course you wiil make more $$$$$$!!!


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## jamesvcampbell (Oct 27, 2007)

it is about drawings. engineered and installed to drawings is according to the code and the elevator inspector is just wanting his way. reading 620.51 word for word how do you read it?


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

James ,ottis elevator says state to state has its own issues ,no one is the same ,you can install shunt trip in machine room, you can install shunt trip in electrical room , in some states the local fire chief says there will not be a shunt trip at all period not any place no shunt trips . they are taking them out its unsafe to them in some states these states have power on and the firemen turn off power when they get everyone out and only than power is shut off manually with disconnect or main . ive learned something today myself wow . but you will have a means of disconnect in that room on that elevator motor meaning a [ fused switch ] you can have a 800amp 3 phase panel in the elevator room penthouse with shunt trip breakers if you want if it pertains to the elevator only . .you can as we do install a bussmanpower module combination breaker shunt trip with fuses and a fa- relay with control transformer in one completed encloser they make these , ge makes these ,eaton makes these .ottis says the last word is the[ fire marshall] he tells the state elevator inspector what is what ,he has the power to overide anyone today if he speaks up , most dont . he says there is no reg or rule in the codes for a shunt trip locations if you dont want it they can not make you do it ,but its a normal way to shut down the power the common shunt trip breaker is used so most do that . the fire chief is the man to ask or contact in your area,now this was from a ottis elevator foreman i know hes the best info man on elevators at work and installed elevators for 30 years he must know more than us. rlc3854 your two cents were well spent you hit it correctly .hope this helps best to ya .


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