# I think I messed up.. Need some advice



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The union is not out to get you. They helped you get your license and know it will take a while before you can become a signatory contractor. It's best to talk to them and let them know that you are building a company with the intentions of being a union contractor when you get to that point. 

Tell them that you do small residential work, you don't do any commercial work that competes with union companies.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Hangry said:


> The call list was so dry and I decided to list myself *Not-At-Trade.* Doing so held my union status as a member, held my spot on the list, but I no longer get any benefits or can apply for any calls.





> I have been and have been operating an EC business now for 1 year.





> I always though that as long as I was not at trade and operating a small one person outfit, it was fine to do so.


How can you classify yourself "not at trade" while owning and operating as an electrical contractor? 



> So I get a call from an old electrician buddy who says he saw an ad with my number and tells me the ibew will fine me heavily if they find out I'm on my own.
> 
> So how do I fix this? What's it going to cost me is the more important question here. I made under $20 grand my first year in business and can safely say that I cannot afford to pay any sort of percent of my wage (at this point of my business)
> 
> ...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How can you classify yourself "not at trade" while owning and operating as an electrical contractor?


Because although locals help members get licenses and also help them with continued education to maintain their license, there is no official position for that person to realistically be in when he is starting a new company. Like the OP said, he can't pay his benefits package when he grosses $20k per year, nor does the local expect him to.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I see, thank you.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_*Here’s my story it’s sad but true 
About a dude who paid his dues
But when their work ran on down
They're out to make me the clown 

Hayp hayp 
Bumda hady hady, hayp hayp 
Bumda hady hady, hayp hayp 
Bumda hady hady hayp. 

Ah, I should have known it from the very start
The hall would bench me ,and we would part
Now listen people what they're selling you 
Ah- keep away from those bruddahood blues

I miss that collectivist place 
The touch of my rep's warm embrace. 
But if you don't wanna cry like I do 
A-keep away from them bruddahood blues

Ah, they like to travel around, 
They'll work you then they'll put you down. 
Now people let me put you wise, 
they don't farm out their guys

Here's the moral and the story from the guy who knows, 
I paid my dues , but my hall still blows
Ask any fool that they went through, they'll say 
A-keep away from them bruddahood blues
*_
:no::jester::no:
~C_(w/apologies to Dion & the Belmonts)_S~


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Do you want to keep the door open to go back to the union? If not, do what 
want, nothing they can do. Their fines don't apply to non members. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Do you want to keep the door open to go back to the union? If not, do what
> want, nothing they can do. Their fines don't apply to non members.
> P&L


Don't listen to this guy^ Their fines apply to the OP and I have seen members get $10,000+ judgements against them because they acted stupid and thought there was "nothing they can do" to them like the guy above said.

I have never seen the union screw someone over who was open and honest about their situation. But if you want to play tough guy you will lose.


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## Tactical Sparky (Sep 6, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I have never seen the union screw someone over who was open and honest about their situation.


I have first hand experience and this line is bull****. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it does not happen.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Tactical Sparky said:


> I have first hand experience and this line is bull****.


No, my line isn't bull****. I said "I haven't seen", and that is accurate.

Now instead of ranting about it, post the story of members being screwed over for doing something innocent and trying to work with the hall. We're all ears.



> Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it does not happen.


 On that same note, just because you have seen it happen once in your local, it doesn't mean that it is going to happen anywhere else.

But I still want to hear of these horrors you witnessed.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

At a minimum, being candid with the hall will let you know exactly where you stand. 

Could be status quo, and become signatory when your business can sustain it. 

Or, you find yourself having to make a tough decision of stay a member or cut ties and be an EC. 

Either way, the guessing game is over. Plus, we can't tell you exactly how your hall in particular will react since they seem to have some latitude in how they handle these situations. 

Personally, it's a little shortsighted for the hall not to support the cultivation of members becoming ECs. Small ECs become medium ECs, medium ECs become larger ECs. Even if they don't get bigger, it still adds to market share (assuming said EC is established as a signatory).


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I went on my own, instantly became signatory and have paid my benefits for over 10 years. If I need electricians, I call the hall and get them. Job is done, they get terminated. Rinse and repeat.
I honestly don't know what the fuss is all about.

I want to add that it has been nice to have access to very good health care and money stashed in a pension that I couldn't touch.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Suncoast Power said:


> I went on my own, instantly became signatory and have paid my benefits for over 10 years. If I need electricians, I call the hall and get them. Job is done, they get terminated. Rinse and repeat.
> I honestly don't know what the fuss is all about.


99% of people can't do what you did.

5 years into my business now and I still don't have the $62,000 of free cash per year to pay my benefits package. So when I spoke to the president and BM they specifically told me that signing wouldn't be a good idea.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> 99% of people can't do what you did.
> 
> 
> 
> 5 years into my business now and I still don't have the $62,000 of free cash per year to pay my benefits package. So when I spoke to the president and BM they specifically told me that signing wouldn't be a good idea.




Are you saying that you don't pay yourself well enough to include benefits?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Are you saying that you don't pay yourself well enough to include benefits?


 You quoted my post, can you point out where I said that?

Do "benefits" cost the dollar amount that I posted? 

And back to the OP, no business owner can pay himself more than what's left over after paying for material, overhead, and all expenses. So I think it's safe to say that the $20k he grossed most likely isn't going to cover his union's benefit package.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Suncoast Power said:


> I went on my own, instantly became signatory and have paid my benefits for over 10 years. If I need electricians, I call the hall and get them. Job is done, they get terminated. Rinse and repeat.
> I honestly don't know what the fuss is all about.
> 
> I want to add that it has been nice to have access to very good health care and money stashed in a pension that I couldn't touch.


Are you a sole owner of the business or the majority shareholder?

If so, there isn't a single local in our area that would allow you to operate a business if you will have the tools on too. Some may give you a year or two, but not beyond that. I asked if they could give me that (the two years) in writing, they refused to do so.

I've come to discover that the variation between locals is pretty amazing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> Are you a sole owner of the business or the majority shareholder?
> 
> If so, there isn't a single local in our area that would allow you to operate a business if you will have the tools on too. Some may give you a year or two, but not beyond that. I asked if they could give me that (the two years) in writing, they refused to do so.
> 
> I've come to discover that the variation between locals is pretty amazing.


My local's bylaws place a limit on the amount of workers a business can have before the owner has to put down the tools. I'm not sure if it's 5 or 7 guys, something like that.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

HackWork said:


> My local's bylaws place a limit on the amount of workers a business can have before the owner has to put down the tools. I'm not sure if it's 5 or 7 guys, something like that.


These locals around here were not easy to deal with in communications... with the exception of 332 (Santa Clara), they were a class act and earned my respect. The rest... well they can go.....

Point is, the OP "NEEDS" to talk to "HIS" local, as they are the only ones that can give him the actual answers. All of us are just pot stirring.....

Hack, that is a good local, one that is looking to build EC's for the future.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switched said:


> These locals around here were not easy to deal with in communications... with the exception of 332 (Santa Clara), they were a class act and earned my respect. The rest... well they can go.....
> 
> Point is, the OP "NEEDS" to talk to "HIS" local, as they are the only ones that can give him the actual answers. All of us are just pot stirring.....
> 
> Hack, that is a good local, one that is looking to build EC's for the future.


I agree, that's why I suggested he goes in to talk to him from the beginning. The fact that they helped him get his license tells me that they are like my local and want to help the members become contractors. As long as he is upfront with them, I am sure they will work with him.


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## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You quoted my post, can you point out where I said that?
> 
> Do "benefits" cost the dollar amount that I posted?




Benefits in my local with wages are less than $70 an hour combined. 

So I again will repeat the same question again, but rephrased. You don't pay yourself as an owner/employee/pm/estimator etc. enough to payout the $62k?

Realizing the additional overhead costs involved of course in your hourly rate.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Locknutz said:


> Benefits in my local with wages are less than $70 an hour combined.
> 
> So I again will repeat the same question again, but rephrased. You don't pay yourself as an owner/employee/pm/estimator etc. enough to payout the $62k?


This just doesn't make sense since one thing has nothing to do with the other, and none of this has anything to do with the thread. What I pay myself has nothing to do with the benefits package of my union. But since you want details about my business, I'll humor you...

In my local it costs $25,440 per year for health and welfare (medical insurance), that's $2,120 per month. I have the same coverage that I purchase myself for $586.77 per month (up from $460, thanks Obamacare )

So, do I have that extra $1,533 of cash to throw at the union for medical insurance? Is that what you are asking?

But that is only the medical insurance, there is a lot more to the benefit package. Now we could do the same thing with the pension, that too has a LOT of waste since you only need 1,200 hours for a pension credit and the rest goes in the pot. 

So to answer your question, I pay myself every cent that is left over after overhead and expenses, just like the OP. It doesn't cost me anywhere near $62,000 for medical insurance and retirement investments. So like I said from the beginning, I don't have an extra $62K in cash to hand over to the union every year.


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## Hangry (Jan 10, 2017)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Do you want to keep the door open to go back to the union? If not, do what
> want, nothing they can do. Their fines don't apply to non members.
> P&L


Yes I do want to stay a member and go back on the list if business doesn't pick up. I don't plan to leave the union but if I'm forced to pay large sums of money operating a one man shop, I will have to leave. Now I am unsure of the penalties for leaving because they paid for training.



HackWork said:


> I agree, that's why I suggested he goes in to talk to him from the beginning. The fact that they helped him get his license tells me that they are like my local and want to help the members become contractors. As long as he is upfront with them, I am sure they will work with him.


The masters course my local offers is always the first course to fill up, and it fills up fast. The second course to fill up quickest is estimating. I think the union knows very well that these members are planning to go out on their own.
The problem I have is being able to approach them and explaining that I have been operating as an EC for one year already.
If I decide to leave the union, am I in their debt somehow financially because they allowed me to take the masters course through the hall?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hangry said:


> Yes I do want to stay a member and go back on the list if business doesn't pick up. I don't plan to leave the union but if I'm forced to pay large sums of money operating a one man shop, I will have to leave. Now I am unsure of the penalties for leaving because they paid for training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some locals have a rule that you can't leave immediately after your apprenticeship or else you will owe a fee. I've seen people say you have to continue working in the union up to 2 years. My local doesn't have that rule. If your local has that rule it would be clearly stated in your bylaws and you would have probably heard about it by now. 

As for the other courses such as helping with the master test or journeyman courses, I don't see any way they can make you pay for that.

I really don't think there is going to be a problem. Go in and talk to them, tell them you got your license and gave it a try. Tell them you made no money but you like doing it so you are going to continue to try and build your contracting business until you are big enough to sign with them. It's really that easy.


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## Hangry (Jan 10, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Some locals have a rule that you can't leave immediately after your apprenticeship or else you will owe a fee. I've seen people say you have to continue working in the union up to 2 years. My local doesn't have that rule. If your local has that rule it would be clearly stated in your bylaws and you would have probably heard about it by now.
> 
> As for the other courses such as helping with the master test or journeyman courses, I don't see any way they can make you pay for that.
> 
> I really don't think there is going to be a problem. Go in and talk to them, tell them you got your license and gave it a try. Tell them you made no money but you like doing it so you are going to continue to try and build your contracting business until you are big enough to sign with them. It's really that easy.


Ok thanks for the help. Just wondering though, are you in the same boat as I am? Are you a small EC but union shop?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Hangry said:


> Ok thanks for the help. Just wondering though, are you in the same boat as I am? Are you a small EC but union shop?


I am right where you are now. I was an active union member for 15 years, I stopped when I got sick. I then got my license and started my own resi non-union EC company. After my first year or so when I saw that it would work, I went to the BM and president and talked to them about how to proceed. At the time I needed medical insurance since my Cobra was running out so I figured maybe I could become a union company, but they recommended strongly against it. I would have to contribute a full 1920 hours worth of benefits money every year, which was more than I was making at that time. I would also be bound by rules that were not conducive to a small company owner building a company.

So they just told me to keep building and doing resi work and stay away from competing in commercial work.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I am right where you are now. I was an active union member for 15 years, I stopped when I got sick. I then got my license and started my own resi non-union EC company. After my first year or so when I saw that it would work, I went to the BM and president and talked to them about how to proceed. At the time I needed medical insurance since my Cobra was running out so I figured maybe I could become a union company, but they recommended strongly against it. I would have to contribute a full 1920 hours worth of benefits money every year, which was more than I was making at that time. I would also be bound by rules that were not conducive to a small company owner building a company.
> 
> So they just told me to keep building and doing resi work and stay away from competing in commercial work.


I know you mentioned that you had some real estate and other income.
For me, I took the advice of an older guy that was still working as an estimator when he was 70.
He told me to make sure if I went inside doing office work or on my own to keep up my pensions. Now that i'm circling the drain and getting old, Im happy that I kept it all up and can either hop on disability pension or keep going until i'm 67. Whichever comes first.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Hangry said:


> Ok thanks for the help. Just wondering though, are you in the same boat as I am? Are you a small EC but union shop?


I would keep it up.
It get slow for me on time and I was able to take a couple of short calls to make some fast cash.
Like Hack said, keep the communication open.
Also for me, I have enough margin to pay my hours each month and if I need help, I have the option to get the help I need.
Usually people I know and I for sure take care of them when they come out.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

*Don't contact them.* IF they catch you tell them you did just one job and made a mistake...you need to eat...behind on mortgage and other bills yata yata. There can be serious monetary consequences when you are a MEMBER.

Your either are union or non-union.....there is no gray area with the IBEW.....you get one job that is on their radar....you are ****ed.....they will take your house and put you on the street. They have unlimited legal resources...you don't.

Union contractors are PAYING big bucks to be union and to get all the union work in their area.....they frown on their members opening up shop and taking their work.

You need to become signatory or leave the union if you are serious about going out on your own.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Tonedeaf said:


> *Don't contact them.* IF they catch you tell them you did just one job and made a mistake...you need to eat...behind on mortgage and other bills yata yata. There can be serious monetary consequences when you are a MEMBER.
> 
> Your either are union or non-union.....there is no gray area with the IBEW.....you get one job that is on their radar....you are ****ed.....they will take your house and put you on the street. They have unlimited legal resources...you don't.
> 
> ...


I think you're being a bit staunch, and what you're claiming isn't accurate everywhere. The OP is engaged in residential market and not likely taking any work from any union contractor. What he is doing is taking some market share from nonunion residential contractors, which in many an IBEW eye is a actually a good thing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I think you're being a bit staunch, and what you're claiming isn't accurate everywhere. The OP is engaged in residential market and not likely taking any work from any union contractor. What he is doing is taking some market share from nonunion residential contractors, which in many an IBEW eye is a actually a good thing.


Exactly, and it's the entire reason why the union helped him get a license. 

Why other reason would the union help him get a license and then help him with continued education? They WANT their own members to become union contractors. And they understand the road to get there.

Hangry, you have been given horrible advice by Tonedeaf. Especially the part about how there is no gray area. Read your bylaws, you will specifically see that gray area when it says that you can't operate a non-union contracting company without the approval of the business manager or local union.

The worst thing you can do is continue on and get bigger, and then be caught and say it's your first time. *That lie right there is what will set the union on you*. 

Right now when you go in to talk to them you have made virtually no money and done almost no work so it's the perfect time.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

You guys are naive....why would you put your personal assets at risk. It is just not smart.


ok...he keeps going doing what he doing gets some money in the bank....now he's working hard, hustling every day and GROWS his business. He starts doing light commercial...he wins an AUTOZONE. The BA comes a knocking.....oh yeah...I forgot he didn't bid the job with union wages. What do you do? Does he sign up here?

Is the BA going to help him out? Are they going to nurture his company?
**** no...they'll con/pressure him into signing and he will go bankrupt in a few months.

If he don't sign up they will litigate the **** out of him.

That's why i recommended becoming signatory or leaving union. Operating under the radar is putting your personal assets at risk.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why would he bid an Autozone before becoming a signatory company? It's been said multiple times that he shouldn't be doing any competing work.

Your entire post sounds like typical anti-union rhetoric. The BA is going to con him?? 

As for the extremely drama filled talk about taking his house, that's a bunch of bologna too. The union has predetermined fines setup, the largest I saw was $5,000. Yes, the union can put a lien against your house if you don't pay the installment fees, and that lien will stay there until you sell the house someday. It's the same as any other judgement against you.  But I have never seen, nor can you show me, a situation in which a member was trying to work with the union and received that fine. The ONLY people who have ever received that fine are the people who kept lying to the union and did not try to work with them.

Right now is the perfect point for him to talk to the union. They will work with him. The worst case scenario is that they tell him he has to sign with them right now, but they wouldn't do that knowing that he can't afford it since he grosses less than he would owe in benefits alone.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Supposedly the IBEW is getting better about working with their own guys opening up shops. I would email your BM about the opportunities the local has about helping you out.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Tonedeaf said:


> You guys are naive....why would you put your personal assets at risk. It is just not smart.
> 
> 
> ok...he keeps going doing what he doing gets some money in the bank....now he's working hard, hustling every day and GROWS his business. He starts doing light commercial...he wins an AUTOZONE. The BA comes a knocking.....oh yeah...I forgot he didn't bid the job with union wages. What do you do? Does he sign up here?
> ...


The IBEW and NECA both have funds to handle underbidding projects for new contractors, and for projects where contractors become signatory.

It is not only in the IBEW's interests but it also in other signatory contractors interests for a new EC to succeed as a union contractor. He should speak with not only the local, but the local NECA office as well. The other EC's I spoke to were a great help in making my decision, even though it wasn't to become signatory. In fact, they and Local 332 are still great to me.

You catch more with honey than vinegar, and both organizations are catching on and changing. They realize if they don't they will die and fade, which would suck for the whole industry.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

First, if you have, get any funds out of your retirement plans.
Then in writing resign to the hall and district.

Despite what some get away with in some halls, or your told at your own. If it's not in writing it didn't happen. There are court cases just like this. Some are suggesting to admit you worked 1 year outside of the hall. That could go very bad. 

You don't seem to have the intention of having an organized shop. You only worked 1 year with the hall. Just give it up. Otherwise you take the risk of another member on the books not liking you being on both sides. It only takes 1 complaint from a member or organized shop.

The entire it's only small jobs, or it's only resi is a load of crap. Our hall gave up resi when large jobs were everywhere. Now the hall is working to get that work back. At one time this area was 98% IBEW work. But slowly it was given away as being too little.


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## NDC (Jan 12, 2016)

Does the ibew even care to unionize a shop with less than 4 employees?


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Any updates from the original poster.

My hall would likely bury the poster in fines.
About equil to the nonunion money earned.
Or about $20k in this case.

Do some get away with this. Yes.
The difference is not just the hall.
It's who you are.

An electrician that organized in with the company.
Worked 1 year with what, only the same shop that was once nonunion.
No family members at the hall or close relations with the main people.
If your a CE/CW that's even worse.
Acitve involvement in union activities?

My point is you're already have the deck stacked against you.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

NDC said:


> Does the ibew even care to unionize a shop with less than 4 employees?


It depends more on the work they do than the manpower they have.


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