# backstab failure proof



## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Garbage. Two weeks ago, 12 year old condo complex. Two light switches not turning on lights.

Pulled the switches. In both cases one wire stayed in the box completely pulling out as I removed the switch.

You know. Someone should be beaten quite badly for allowing crap like this.

Sorry, no pics but I have no reason to BS.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

daveEM said:


> Garbage. Two weeks ago, 12 year old condo complex. Two light switches not turning on lights.
> 
> Pulled the switches. In both cases one wire stayed in the box completely pulling out as I removed the switch.
> 
> ...


Pics or it never happened!:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh, wait......................

These are _screw-terminal_ failures.

Never mind..............


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't have pics either but I just replaced a recept about 2 weeks ago. It was burning up and they notice the paint turning black above the cover and a string of recepts quit working. Luckily no house fire!!!


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Oh, wait......................
> 
> These are screw-terminal failures.
> 
> Never mind..............


Bad installation is not a failure, it never started.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Even over here in France we do have couple backstabber failure as well.

Couple day ago backstabbed switch failed end up replace with new one with topwired verison ( simair to your backwired devices ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## cschmid (Nov 19, 2007)

I will get picture soon but normally the flexible copper portion of the back stab just weakens with years of use and you start seeing ghosting issues. One day the problem is the lights for 2 cycles and then it its fixed, then it is an outlet this goes on until you reach failure months later you find it and replace it and of course the box is to small for a pigtail so you buy side write clamp on receptacle and do a feed thru again. Or if money its not the object you carefully cut out old box and do it correctly.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

butcher733 said:


> I want to see current pics of back stab failures. When you find one take a pic with the date written on your finger (fetus style). From all the talk about failures I would think this thread would fill up quick.



If your aim is evidence of what _is, has been, and will continue to be_ one of the biggest service call issues in our trade, i'd say pix are a moot point Butch

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

butcher733 said:


> I want to see current pics of back stab failures. When you find one take a pic with the date written on your finger (fetus style). From all the talk about failures I would think this thread would fill up quick.


Really,
The most failures I find with these is improper installation.
Usually, the insulation is not stripped off enough for the conductor to be fully inserted.

I find way more failures with solid wire on screw terminals that are not tight.

Stranded wire seems to have less failures here maybe just due to the experience of the installers on a pipe and wire job.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

cschmid said:


> I will get picture soon but normally the flexible copper portion of the back stab just weakens with years of use and you start seeing ghosting issues. One day the problem is the lights for 2 cycles and then it its fixed, then it is an outlet this goes on until you reach failure months later you find it and replace it and of course the box is to small for a pigtail so you buy side write clamp on receptacle and do a feed thru again. Or if money its not the object you carefully cut out old box and do it correctly.


Just thinking about how the consumer side of the receptacle is expected to last longer with a home owner jamming a male plug into it and the back side not really exposed to much movement at all.

it takes quite a few twists to get a properly inserted back wired device to let go of a conductor.
I'm sticking to failures caused by improper strip length, not so much on the spontaneous release theory.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So if the cause is operator/installer error, where are the electrical statistics of _screw down vs. stab_ termination failure then Jrannis?

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

jrannis said:


> ...The most failures I find with these is improper installation....


 Seems like I've repaired a disproportionate number of backstabs, but at this point, I still lean towards improper installation:

When they're tested, I'm sure the conductor is made up very carefully with no bows or nicks, and inserted to the exact length.

When they're installed in the field, they're often on low-margin jobs where everyone is working as fast as possible or else the guys doing it aren't the best paid people for the job, and it probably makes errors a lot more likely.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

good point John, at some point UL _tested out _#12....

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> Seems like I've repaired a disproportionate number of backstabs, but at this point, I still lean towards improper installation:
> .


When I did residential and the outlets were backstabbed it seemed like the one that failed was always behind the stove or some other difficult item to move


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> If your aim is evidence of what _is, has been, and will continue to be_ one of the biggest service call issues in our trade, i'd say pix are a moot point Butch
> 
> ~CS~


If it is what you contend (which I do not have enough field experience to agree or refute) then the pictures should come in hot and heavy. I just want to see how soon and how often these failures happen to our members. Sooooooooo, if a back stab failure is the source of a service call have the date on your finger in the pic of the device.


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

been in the business 25 years and have seen it happen about 4 times but i still dont back stab its not a good job


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Here is one.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wirenuts should be outlawed


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Here is one.
> View attachment 26040


 Yea i see alot of that on plaster and lath homes without insulation and the device on the outside wall. but i have seen just about as many screw terminal failures as well so its to close to call.. it comes down to the installer either way...


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

captkirk said:


> Yea i see alot of that on plaster and lath homes without insulation and the device on the outside wall. but i have seen just about as many screw terminal failures as well so its to close to call.. it comes down to the installer either way...


 I changed out all my receptacles in my house and almost every receptacle in my house had one loose burnt neutral,which is telling me is the installers fault.If you leave enough wire coming out of the boxes it makes the stabs a lot easier and effective. I'm not going to lie I stabbed a few before when the boxes were a lil tight in space. I rather just stab than adding a jumper and wire nut making the box over filled than it is already.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Most of the wire connector failures I've repaired were B-1 caps.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

None of my backstabs have ever failed, ever.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

TGGT said:


> None of my backstabs have ever failed, ever.


'Cause when they do fail, they call a reputable electrician to fix it. Lol


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

tsmil said:


> 'cause when they do fail, they call a reputable electrician to fix it. Lol


👍👍👍👍


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> I want to see current pics of back stab failures. When you find one take a pic with the date written on your finger (fetus style). From all the talk about failures I would think this thread would fill up quick.


I only take pictures unusual situations. A burned up backstab is not unusual.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

jbrookers said:


> I only take pictures unusual situations. A burned up backstab is not unusual.


The whole point of this thread is how soon and how often will "dated" pics start showing up. If its not unusual to see them I will patiently wait for your first contribution.


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

After farther review, here is what i found on my phone. Notice the one where the wires were wrapped poorly and burned.


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> The whole point of this thread is how soon and how often will "dated" pics start showing up. If its not unusual to see them I will patiently wait for your first contribution.


I could literally post these kind of photos until my fingers blister if I logged in on my desk top.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

jbrookers said:


> I could literally post these kind of photos until my fingers blister if I logged in on my desk top.


I'm looking for ones that are found and "dated", not pics you have on file. I think it would be interesting to have a "real time" log of back stab failure service calls. When you find a new one write the date on your finger and put it in the pic.


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> I'm looking for ones that are found and "dated", not pics you have on file. I think it would be interesting to have a "real time" log of back stab failure service calls. When you find a new one write the date on your finger and put it in the pic.


 Lol, ya ok....


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Notice how no grounding wires can be stabbed. Only screw connected.
Got to be a reason.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

jbrookers said:


> After farther review, here is what i found on my phone. Notice the one where the wires were wrapped poorly and burned.


Yeah your pictures are of those crappy pass and seymour, outlets I believe. Their back stabs suck and pull loose in about 2 seconds after installation. Generally I use the screws ( whatever the maker).


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

jbrookers said:


> After farther review, here is what i found on my phone. Notice the one where the wires were wrapped poorly and burned.


All look like they were burned on the consumer side. Terminations look like they stayed tight. 
I would say device failure, not so much installation problem.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> So if the cause is operator/installer error, where are the electrical statistics of _screw down vs. stab_ termination failure then Jrannis?
> 
> ~CS~


With more than 30 solid years in the trade, I consider myself a statistic.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> All look like they were burned on the consumer side. Terminations look like they stayed tight.
> I would say device failure, not so much installation problem.


Ok, let's go with that thought then Jrannis

Consumers are purchasing AC window units , or similar high draw amenities , and plugging them into 15A receptacles , many of which are on 20A circuitry _(American wiring, not something our Canadian bro's do i'm told)_


Further, these appliances come with manufacturers instructions , which of course are thirteen pages of spanish before one gets to the english , expressing disclaimers in 0000font , 99.9% of which are roundfiled with the packaging _(because you get the boot from the man club for reading instructions)_, insuring any 110.3B considerations are thrown under the bus

Do we have a_ problem_ Houston?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> With more than 30 solid years in the trade, I consider myself a statistic.


lol, you _old goat_ you! 

anecdotals duly noted!

~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Ok, let's go with that thought then Jrannis
> 
> Consumers are purchasing AC window units , or similar high draw amenities , and plugging them into 15A receptacles , many of which are on 20A circuitry _(American wiring, not something our Canadian bro's do i'm told)_
> 
> ...


Crappy devices?
I suspect that loose receptacles are a much bigger issue as far as burned devices are concerned. 
I have people show me a little trick the use to keep the plug from falling out of a receptacle. The trick involves squeezing the prongs together.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Crappy devices?
> .


systemic crappiness Jrannis

_plausible deniability_ might be the term that fits better

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Crappy devices?


I think some forget that if you use the cheapest devices you can find, they tend to be crappy. 

You get what you pay for.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Considering the number of service calls I do I bet I see it twice a month, and while clearly a lot of it is due to the wire not being stripped long enough the majority is from heat. The backstab itself isn't the problem its the loose device with a small metal contact point that builds heat under load and melts the device. There is no doubt in my mind that the manufacturing standards are at least equally to blame (as the shotty installers). The most common one I see is the one behind the tv/entertainment center and the desk.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Wireless said:


> Bad installation is not a failure,......



That's my point. :whistling2:


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I think some forget that if you use the cheapest devices you can find, they tend to be crappy.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


 
Kindof interesting though...even the cheapest devices are listed.

Listing is suppsoedly all about safety, especially fire safety.

So there would seem to be a problem in the testing standards employed by testing agencies. Maybe if they raise the bar it would be more difficult for the least common denominator to be utter crap.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

CraigV said:


> Kindof interesting though...even the cheapest devices are listed.
> 
> Listing is suppsoedly all about safety, especially fire safety.
> 
> So there would seem to be a problem in the testing standards employed by testing agencies. Maybe if they raise the bar it would be more difficult for the least common denominator to be utter crap.


That old crap aluminum wire and FPE CB's used to be listed also. Backstabs will eventually (hopefully) lose that listing as well.
Once a manufacturer gets a listing, they lobby hard to prevent loss of it.


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

I usually find them behind couches .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

big2bird said:


> That old crap aluminum wire.....


And _where installed correctly_, it still performs admirably....



big2bird said:


> and FPE CB's used to be listed also......


Until FPE _lost their UL listing_......


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Until FPE _lost their UL listing_......


I am quite sure that is what I said.:blink:


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

big2bird said:


> That old crap aluminum wire and FPE CB's used to be listed also.


that old crap aluminum wiring is doing great in my house, and so are the copper pigtail backstabs! :laughing:

The wiring is 40 years old... And it's aging perfectly. I should have about 50 more years out of it.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i dont have pictures either, but i have changed so many of these that scared me that i wouldnt put them in anyones house! but, i will admit that some of the new push in connectors have been noticably more beefy in the contact area and the backstab 'screw tighten' seem to be ok


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> that old crap aluminum wiring is doing great in my house, and so are the copper pigtail backstabs! :laughing:
> 
> The wiring is 40 years old... And it's aging perfectly. I should have about 50 more years out of it.


Good luck. You couldn't pry me into a home with tin can wiring.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

big2bird said:


> Good luck. You couldn't pry me into a home with tin can wiring.


So many people are terrified of aluminum wiring, you can get a nicer house for lesser money, and where I live, that's a huge amount lesser!

When we go to sell I'll put a big splice box above the panel in the crawl space. Run all copper down into the panel.. that way when Mr. Home Inspector pops it open, he'll report "Oh this house is safe, it's copper wiring!" :nerd:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

FastFokker said:


> that old crap aluminum wiring is doing great in my house, and so are the copper pigtail backstabs! :laughing:
> 
> The wiring is 40 years old... And it's aging perfectly. I should have about 50 more years out of it.


 
My fathers house was built in the 70's aluminum and FPE (no back stabs), nary a problem and I have checked it in depth.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Plenty of it tickin' along out here in dogpatch.....~CS~


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

brian john said:


> My fathers house was built in the 70's aluminum and FPE (no back stabs), nary a problem and I have checked it in depth.


Blind squirrel theory.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Plenty of it tickin' along out here in dogpatch.....~CS~


Yes. And there are still Corvairs out there that never wrecked.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I grew up in a home with back stabbed AL protected by FPE.

No problems, we got used to the TV set blacking out when the refrigerated started. :laughing:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

My main contention is this. In the scheme of things, they few $$ saved using aluminum vs copper when building a home is stupid. It's pennies. And when you add in cu/al devices, added noalox and rated wire nuts, maintenence, it's just plain dumb. FOR WHAT? IMHO.


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I grew up in a home with back stabbed AL protected by FPE.
> 
> No problems, we got used to the TV set blacking out when the refrigerated started. :laughing:


That's funny as hell right there.:laughing:


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

To be honest, I probably wouldn't have bought a house with aluminum if I wasn't an electrician. Otherwise, it's a missed opportunity. 

Didn't take me too long to go through every device box & verify it's 100%. Plus I got rid of all those nasty beige duplex receptacles and put in white decora TR's. It looks like a brand new house! Cost maybe $100?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

big2bird said:


> My main contention is this. In the scheme of things, they few $$ saved using aluminum vs copper when building a home is stupid. It's pennies. And when you add in cu/al devices, added noalox and rated wire nuts, maintenence, it's just plain dumb. FOR WHAT? IMHO.


 
It is more like dollars then and for the track homes building 1000's of houses a year that is or was money in the bank.

Me I would rewire, just issues or not my dad did not want me to rewire his house at the time and now he lives with me, his house sits empty.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

apparently my reply didnt go through yesterday. i have found so many of the 'backstab' devices either burnt, cooked, or just short of the above that i NEVER USE them unless they have screws


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

papaotis said:


> apparently my reply didnt go through yesterday. i have found so many of the 'backstab' devices either burnt, cooked, or just short of the above that i NEVER USE them unless they have screws


I don't think you will find any that don't also have screws!


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## JoeSchmo (Mar 18, 2013)

Not sure on the date exactly but here's one from a few weeks ago. I also want to mention, as a service guy, I LOVE when guys backstab devices!! It's keeps me working and those calls can lead to a lot of money when you go through and remake the connections properly. New construction guys, please keep backstabbing as much as possible. The rest of us can get rich off of it if we do it right!!


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

At this point it is five days without a failure found and documented. I wonder how long it will take?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> At this point it is five days without a failure found and documented. I wonder how long it will take?


What are you? The inventor of the backstabbed receptacle? Do you have stocks in P&S and you're worried about getting sued? Evidently it doesn't matter how many pictures people post, you want paperwork. Let me guess, you're a government worker!!!!!:whistling2::whistling2: You and BBQ need to get together for a picnic!!:laughing::laughing:


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

JoeSchmo said:


> Not sure on the date exactly but here's one from a few weeks ago. I also want to mention, as a service guy, I LOVE when guys backstab devices!! It's keeps me working and those calls can lead to a lot of money when you go through and remake the connections properly. New construction guys, please keep backstabbing as much as possible. The rest of us can get rich off of it if we do it right!!


Maybe a reason some EC's are struggling is because their reputation is catching up with them


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

JoeSchmo said:


> Not sure on the date exactly but here's one from a few weeks ago. I also want to mention, as a service guy, I LOVE when guys backstab devices!! It's keeps me working and those calls can lead to a lot of money when you go through and remake the connections properly. New construction guys, please keep backstabbing as much as possible. The rest of us can get rich off of it if we do it right!!


I don't know what's worse. Cheap hacks who backstab or the bottom feeders who go around fixing them thinking they are going to get rich.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> I don't know what's worse. Cheap hacks who backstab or the bottom feeders who go around fixing them thinking they are going to get rich.


I would say cheap hacks who back stab.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

JoeSchmo said:


>


From all the pictures, it really looks like the majority of failures are from using the receptacle to splice the circuit. Power in, power out. 

The same failures seem to happen from backstabs as from terminals. 

It can't be good for the connection (pushpin or screw) to have 10+ amps running through it for a long time, heating up and expanding and then cooling and contracting. Give that enough cycles and it will always fail.

It's the same reason we (many of us) pre-twist the wires together before capping with a wire nut. 

Everyone can do what they want.. and knowing electricians, this thread will not change anybody's mind about how they do their installations. :no:


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

FastFokker said:


> From all the pictures, it really looks like the majority of failures are from using the receptacle to splice the circuit. Power in, power out.
> 
> The same failures seem to happen from backstabs as from terminals.
> 
> ...


FF you can say that again!


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> At this point it is five days without a failure found and documented. I wonder how long it will take?


 That logic is silly and self serving. You want to ignore every backstab failure for the last thirty years and focus only on the ones found in the last five days by a handful of electricians some of which are not even in the field anymore and who are dorky enough to write the date on their finger  Dont hold your breath....

But hey, keep on stabbing and we will keep on fixing them  Maybe i will change the name of my boat to "stab-lock."


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> My fathers house was built in the 70's aluminum and FPE (no back stabs), nary a problem and I have checked it in depth.


I know a guy that drives drunk. Been driving that way for 20 years...nary a problem


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

OK, obviously a heated topic (thin pun intended). I prefer took look at this in a sort of statistical point of view. My experience has been that I find way more failed stabbed then screwed, but I have known way more experienced sparkles than I who say just the opposite. My contention is that the few "teeth" holding the wire in a stab are just barely enough contact area. A loose screw can be just as bad but the electrician who is conscientious enough to refuse to use stab connections is likely to adequately torque his screws, stabs with screws contact in a manner much more like a side screw. The likelyhood of a receptacle wired as a splice becoming an issue is far greater regardless of technique simply because of the potentially greater load on the connections from "downstream". Then at the very root of the issue it becomes clear that part of the issue is that the least experienced, least vested person in the company is usually the guy twisting the screws.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

jbrookers said:


> I know a guy that drives drunk. Been driving that way for 20 years...nary a problem


Operating a motor vehicle while past the legal limit of blood alcohol content is synonymous to having aluminum branch circuits wired in your home?

I could expect a trunk slammin home inspector to say something like that, but an electrician??? :drink: pour me another one, I got some driving to do!


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

FastFokker said:


> Operating a motor vehicle while past the legal limit of blood alcohol content is synonymous to having aluminum branch circuits wired in your home?
> 
> I could expect a trunk slammin home inspector to say something like that, but an electrician??? :drink: pour me another one, I got some driving to do!


 I think you are mistaking my analogy for a direct comparison.


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

If you or someone you know has ever cut into an energized 12-2 with your Kleins try imagine how similar that situation is to a bolted fault downstream of a backstabbed receptacle.

IMO if such a circuit ever experienced a dead short, every device should be replaced, much like one would do with a large circuit breaker.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> If you or someone you know has ever cut into an energized 12-2 with your Kleins try imagine how similar that situation is to a bolted fault downstream of a backstabbed receptacle.
> 
> IMO if such a circuit ever experienced a dead short, every device should be replaced, much like one would do with a large circuit breaker.


Only if zog had his say


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> Only if zog had his say


He's no dummy:no:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> If you or someone you know has ever cut into an energized 12-2 with your Kleins try imagine how similar that situation is to a bolted fault downstream of a backstabbed receptacle.
> 
> IMO if such a circuit ever experienced a dead short, every device should be replaced, much like one would do with a large circuit breaker.


 
It depending on which type of breakers you use and the AIC rating the very high AIC rated breakers are good for blowing up merde with out a question.

Merci,
Marc


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> He is a dummy:no:


Fixed it for you


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## Hackster (Jun 15, 2013)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> He's no dummy:no:


No, he's not a dummy at all. But some of his views are less than realistic.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

wendon said:


> What are you? The inventor of the backstabbed receptacle? Do you have stocks in P&S and you're worried about getting sued? Evidently it doesn't matter how many pictures people post, you want paperwork. Let me guess, you're a government worker!!!!!:whistling2::whistling2: You and BBQ need to get together for a picnic!!:laughing::laughing:


nothing of the sort wendon. The only reason I made this thread is because I thought it would be interesting to see how often and how many of these types of failures are found. I think it is easy to get the impression that backstab receptacles fail constantly non stop everyday through discussion with everybody else because of all the pictures they have. I just want to see how often they are found in a dated fashion just for curiosity sake.

On another note I would also love to see failures of side wires also because I'm sure those are out there too.


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## JoeSchmo (Mar 18, 2013)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Maybe a reason some EC's are struggling is because their reputation is catching up with them


I think you're right. When you back stab because it's faster and can get your hourly guy out faster you deserve a reputation for poor quality. If you're honest, do what you say you will and do a good job then you can earn a lot more money. A skilled worker is hard to find and worth more than a typical wire monkey.


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## JoeSchmo (Mar 18, 2013)

FastFokker said:


> From all the pictures, it really looks like the majority of failures are from using the receptacle to splice the circuit. Power in, power out.
> 
> It's the same reason we (many of us) pre-twist the wires together before capping with a wire nut.
> 
> Everyone can do what they want.. and knowing electricians, this thread will not change anybody's mind about how they do their installations. :no:


You're right about not changing anyone's minds. Lol!! It feels like many people just like to insult other on here instead of discuss. 

I think you nailed it on using the receptacle to splice the circuit. We're it not for that the back stabs would probably not fail often.


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## JoeSchmo (Mar 18, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> I don't know what's worse. Cheap hacks who backstab or the bottom feeders who go around fixing them thinking they are going to get rich.


So back stabbers are cheap hacks and the guy who don't and repair them are bottom feeders? Lol!!!! Talk about a no win!! I guess we should all just quit and become plumbers?


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

JoeSchmo said:


> I guess we should all just quit and become plumbers?


The lobotomy requirement is too painfull.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Plumbers have their own backstabbers...










Every trade is going the route of quick and easy. Get used to it, that's the new world.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

JoeSchmo said:


> You're right about not changing anyone's minds. Lol!! It feels like many people just like to insult other on here instead of discuss.
> 
> I think you nailed it on using the receptacle to splice the circuit. We're it not for that the back stabs would probably not fail often.


Who's insulted?? This is the way electricians discuss things!:laughing::laughing:


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## David S (Sep 25, 2013)

Well speaking of back stab receptacles.. We got back from our vacation and my wife started to use the coffee maker in the kitchen split receptacle. She smelled burnt something. The coffee maker didn't seem to work so she tried the microwave on the same split receptacle. Well there was a loose / intermittent neutral connection. Toasted both appliances. When I took out the duplex, the neutral fell out. Took the duplex apart, the spring was annealed and the neutral was badly corroded... Hate those back stabs.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

FastFokker said:


> ...Every trade is going the route of quick and easy. Get used to it, that's the new world.


 I wonder if the K&T guys said that when Romex was introduced?

"Quick and easy" is only a problem when reliability suffers.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> If you or someone you know has ever cut into an energized 12-2 with your Kleins try imagine how similar that situation is to a bolted fault downstream of a backstabbed receptacle.
> 
> IMO if such a circuit ever experienced a dead short, every device should be replaced, much like one would do with a large circuit breaker.


 
Good point, I never looked at it that way before. QO might no be so bad but FPE... 










FastFokker said:


> Plumbers have their own backstabbers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I remember when those first came out at Home depot. Thought to myself well at least now we can distinguish between professional and DIY plumping. Now Im seeing those in new home construction everywhere by "plumbers" :no:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I worked for an EC that did new homes exclusively, and we did lots of them. It was standard practice to backstab, not surprisingly. Even though I wasn't thrilled about doing it, I always tried to make the best of a not so good situation by making sure that I stripped the wires the right length and making sure they were fully inserted.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I forgot about this thread and the OP wanting pics. I've had a few fried back stabbed receps in the last month or so, but didn't think to take any pics.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

getting back to the op, is the question when the device was installed, or when there was a problem after install. i think you want to see a newer time range?:001_huh:instead of ones that have been in service for years?


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## Whidbey (Aug 17, 2013)

I have found that when I find a backstab failure it is in an older device that was listed for both 12 & 14 gauge wire. The failure was always 14 going into the larger hole. Nowadays all you can stab is 14.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I think some forget that if you use the cheapest devices you can find, they tend to be crappy.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


Does anyone make a "quality" back stab device? I have never seen one. The ones with the back stabs are always the cheapest ones you can find.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

So we're economic, political, religion, conspiracy, law, advertising, experts and I guess we now add plumbing to the list. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> So we're economic, political, religion, conspiracy, law, advertising, experts and I guess we now add plumbing to the list. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


Don't forget master coffee makers & electricians when time permits.


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## SparkyDino (Sep 23, 2013)

I always thought those little holes on the back were for air cooling or something? :jester: 

I was taught to use the screws only, pigtail & bring the wires to the device, NEVER EVER use a device as a wire nut for the circuit. If the branch circuit is stranded wire then always use a sta-kon wire connector. [if in a bind & out of sta-kons then counter twist strands real good so they bind down on the screw post] And ALWAYS tape the device.

I also always heard things like "craftsmanship with pride" & "do it right the 1st time" [thank you L.U. 701] :thumbsup:

there is just something about back stabbing that makes me cringe. maybe 30 yrs of pulling devices out of the wall and wires falling off has something to do with that? :whistling2:


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## phil20 (Apr 30, 2013)

just pulled a switch yesterday and the one wire popped out


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

papaotis said:


> getting back to the op, is the question when the device was installed, or when there was a problem after install. i think you want to see a newer time range?:001_huh:instead of ones that have been in service for years?


 
I was wanting people to take a pic of any backstab failure when they find it and why it failed. kind of a real time log of failures just to see how often it happens and why.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> I was wanting people to take a pic of any backstab failure when they find it and why it failed. kind of a real time log of failures just to see how often it happens and why.


Why?
What's in it for us?
What good would it do to log it anywhere?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> I was wanting people to take a pic of any backstab failure when they find it and why it failed. kind of a real time log of failures just to see how often it happens and why.


Cletus is that you?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> Cletus is that you?


:sleep1:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

All I ever see is burnt up screw terminals, odd. 

DOWN WITH SCREW TERMINALS!!!!!










:laughing:


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

In the past 12 months of doing strictly residential work I've found a dozen, maybe two dozen, cases of backstab failure, resembling every other photo posted on this thread.... and maybe two cases of loose screws (other than my own). 

One case was an apartment with at least a half-dozen burned backstab failures, including several behind kids' beds and cribs, with mattresses shoved up against them. I wrote the landlord a certified letter, mailed to every addresses for him that I could find, reviewed by my lawyer, urging him to replace them all -- and "I don't care if you use my services or not." 

Observations: 
1. Backstabs with 14ga wire are much more likely to fail than those with 12ga. 

2. The cheapest receptacles, those with no screws at all, are most likely to fail.

3. There seems to be no special frequency of failure related to insufficient strip length. Can't remember a single case, in fact. Often, "installers" strip more insulation than necessary. 

Years ago (@35) in my twenties I first saw the backstab holes at a counter. I asked the guy what they were for. He said, "They're so idiots can do wiring." 

That about sums it up for me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Good electrical work means proper termination(s) :thumbsup:

Yes it's debated all the time, down to the _nth_ degree, and usually by sorts who genuinely _*CARE*_ about their work quality.

That said, i would not trust _any _manufacturer foisting some _quicky _method 

Just because they passed some NRTL doesn't create integrity for them_ or_ their product :no:

Doubt me? take a walk through Walmart or HD...:whistling2:

~C_(the older i get, the uglier i am)_ S~


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

> Just because they passed some NRTL doesn't create integrity for them_ or_ their product


Duh. Someone, somehow, managed to get aluminum wire for branch circuits approved, for a while. Helloooooooo. Can you say "Pinto?"


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## ACA (Sep 3, 2013)

These threads make me laugh.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

glad you can get a laugh out it, but what part are you laughing at?:whistling2:


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## icdubois (Nov 16, 2013)

As an apprentice I was told two different things by two different jw that I work with. Both of them do good work and have pride in what they do. One told me to stab where ever possible as it's faster, and the other told me not to stab even though it's slower. I feel that if I could get as fast at screwing them in as I can stabbing them, I'm gonna screw them. But we also use the device as a splice. Power in/power out. 

What are your thought of stabbing a pig tail, thus not using the device as a splice?


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## DesertDawg (Jun 6, 2013)

*Beating a dead horse of a different color with a big stick...*

I would have to say that stabbing pigtails would likely reduce the likelyhood that the three space heaters down the line will make THAT receptacle burst into flames, but if you are going to all the trouble of pigtailing them, I don't know, I still like to screw 'em all. 
And I thought stab connections were for 14 AWG only?


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I always pigtail and always backstab and the connections hold for _long enough_. Screw terminations probably last longer, but why eliminate good money replacing outlets in 15 years?

Electrical should last, but trying to make your electrical last longer than you will seems like a bad idea for a career.

Planned obsolescence.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I never pigtail, always use the device for feed to the next device. That little bar and those two screws can take the amps. 

My marrs I twist on with my linesman pliers so the connection is good that way but there are a lot of weak electricians out there doing pigtails. If they don't fall off when I pull something out you can undo them with your pinkies.


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## RandyM (Apr 5, 2012)

Local code requires pigtails. No daisy chaining. You can remove the receptacle without breaking the circuit.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

DesertDawg said:


> I would have to say that stabbing pigtails would likely reduce the likelyhood that the three space heaters down the line will make THAT receptacle burst into flames, but if you are going to all the trouble of pigtailing them, I don't know, I still like to screw 'em all.
> And I thought stab connections were for 14 AWG only?


Not for nothing, but why is it always 3 space heaters plugged in downstream? Don't buildings have central heat anymore?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

RandyM said:


> Local code requires pigtails. No daisy chaining. You can remove the receptacle without breaking the circuit.


...Because every home has a dot com server plugged in at the last downstream outlet. :whistling2:


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