# Stranded or solid 12 awg wire?



## calimurray

Since the recent wire prices our company only buys solid 12 awg wires now which I don't have a problem using. But a lot of guys complain cause they cant work with it or even pull the wire as easy as stranded. 

When I lived in L.A. all they used was solid wire and nobody seemed to have a problem using the wire there.
Here in Chicago land I got guys telling me you cant use solid the inspector will fail you, I have never failed an inspection using 12 solid wire. 

There's $12- $14 savings between solid and stranded per 500'.

I either have a bunch of lazy guys working around me accustomed to the easier softer way. Or they just don't know how to handle 12 solid.

Most guys cant even pull stranded right nor know how to untangle stranded wire quickly and the right way.

Stranded is definetly more friendly in tight areas I will agree on that, Although with the rising price of copper solid is the more economical choice as of now.


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## a-bulb

I prefer solid myself. To me it's not much tougher to pull if you don't have many bends (less then 225) and terminating is alot easier in my opinion.


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## nap

solid wire;

your labor costs are higher because it is more difficult to install

there is more danger of skinning a wire while pulling it in so it takes more time (money). finding and repairing these scrapes, if needed is expensive.

I believe box fill is challenged becuase solid is obviously not as compliant as stranded so even staying legal, it tends to cause people to limit the wire in a box greater which results in more runs, bigger boxes, etc.= more money.


I used to work for a contractor that was on a job and did not realize the wire was spec'd solid until well into the job. He believed in the items I listed above so much he offered to eat the cost difference so we could use stranded. (and this was a pretty good sized job.)


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## Super_33

It depends on the application.
If the mud rings are already on then stranded is easier to control while pulling. That is the only real advantage I can think of for stranded wire besides trimming but people can get used to trimming solid wire.

If the mud rings are off, on the other hand, then there is no reason to go with the stranded. Solid is easier to pull/push with out a fishtape, you get stronger splices, and you will get stronger man hands:thumbup:. Unfortunately, you'll probably get guys whining either way so you should go with the applicatioin and cost.


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## 480sparky

I generally use solid. Stranded if I'm wiring up something that moves, shakes or vibrates... like motors n such.


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## calimurray

wire bending is key most electricians dont know how to bend the wire properly to install ina box. There is a method.

Is it really more work or is it not?

That seems like a common lie going around more scuns more work. If the pipe work is installed properly there no more bends then needed and the wire fill is low . Then in my opinion solid is easy to install. 

If your getting scuns in the wire you must have untrained employees there is an art to pulling wire the right way. And bending the wire into boxes.

Stranded isnt less work either some times if the guy on either end of the fish tape is not a seasoned wire puller he can also create scuns in stranded wire. Stranded wire can also cause for more knots in the wire the feed guy may not know how to untangle.

Most guys cant pull solid cause they only use their forearm strength and not their body strength to get the job done.


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## 480sparky

OK, I'll bite.

What's a _scun_?


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## nap

like I said, this multi-millionaire business owner was willing to eat the cost of the stranded. He didn;t get to be a multi-miilionaire by throwing away money. If he saw the benefit, I can assure you, financially, it was there.



> That seems like a common lie going around more scuns more work


common LIE? It is a common situation. With stranded, I can pull from and to a box that is 50 feet off the ground, even if the pipe is not turned downward. If it is not neccessary to have that downward turn, it costs more to put it in. Pulling and feeding from the ground allows me to avoid the time it takes to hop in the lift and slow speed it back and forth or going up and down to deal with a curl or such.

that saves a LOT of time and as we all know, time = money.



> Stranded isnt less work either some times if the guy on either end of the fish tape is not a seasoned wire puller he can also create scuns in stranded wire.


so now you are going to use the same argument against stranded wire that you did against the installers of solid wire having problems. Obviously, if you are working with inexperinced hands, everything is a challenge but try comparing apples to apples, not apples to watermelon.


> Most guys cant pull solid cause they only use their forearm strength and not their body strength to get the job done.


again, excuses. I use every part of my body. Sometimes I actually use the weight of my body. You ca nargue and claim all you want but it takes more power to pull solid wire. That means there is more tension on the wire. Than means there is more pressure on a turn in a pipe wich means there is more chance of scrubbing the insulation or God forbid it is PVC, grinding out a corner.



> wire bending is key most electricians dont know how to bend the wire properly to install ina box. There is a method


true, but even in the best of folding and such, it takes up more room and it takes more time to stuff it. time=money.


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## te12co2w

I buy stranded wire almost exclusively. I believe it is easier to pull if one man is working alone, which is quite often the case for us. There are trade offs of course. Costs more, harder to control, and solid wire looks waaaay better made up in a panel, but still.


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## amptech

I only use stranded conductors. I even use stranded MC. I don't use devices with binding screw terminals, only pressure plates. I have used solid #12 in conduit and found it more time-consuming to install and easier to damage the insulation. MC with solid conductors lacks the flexibility and cooperation of stranded. In the time studies I did years ago on the job, the additional cost of stranded vs solid was easily recouped in labor savings.


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## Bkessler

Sure stranded is easier to work with, but come on, Solid is not that tough to pull or make up in a box. I never used solid until I moved from detroit to socal but it did not take long to get used to.


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## KayJay

I can go either way. If the equipment installation instructions say to use stranded conductors, or if flexibility is a factor then, so be it.
I recall something in the UL White book that required stranded copper for equipment listed for Marine Use, but that’s just going from memory.



calimurray said:


> There's $12- $14 savings between solid and stranded per 500'.


Solid it is. …. Tell the guys if they want to chip in the extra $12 to $14 per spool, they can have stranded. 




nap;
I believe box fill is challenged becuase solid is obviously not as compliant as stranded so even staying legal said:


> Not sure I understand this.
> Although Table 8 in Chapter 9 states that #12 solid and #12 stranded have the same Circular Mill Area, it seems to indicate that the overall diameter of #12 solid is 0.081 inches and #12 stranded is 0.092 inches. Wouldn’t that actually make it just a tad larger than the #12 solid overall?


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## brian john

What ever it takes.

You use solid to install controls in a switch gear and I'll slam the crap out of you.

Use stranded for branch circuit wiring for outlets and I'll question you on it.


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## 480sparky

Just y'all remember.... most folks here don't have much say on what they install. They install what the person who signs their paycheck says to install.


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## nap

480sparky said:


> Just y'all remember.... most folks here don't have much say on what they install. They install what the person who signs their paycheck says to install.


I have total say over what I install. (I know, you said "most folks")



> Not sure I understand this.
> Although Table 8 in Chapter 9 states that #12 solid and #12 stranded have the same Circular Mill Area, it seems to indicate that the overall diameter of #12 solid is 0.081 inches and #12 stranded is 0.092 inches. Wouldn’t that actually make it just a tad larger than the #12 solid overall?


the fill count is the same. Not the point. Solid is less conforming so it actually takes up more room. 



> I only use stranded conductors. I even use stranded MC


.Amen. the last time I priced the differences, it was only about $2 more for the stranded. I also do not use aluminum MC unless that is all I cab get. Steel is the metal of choice but I am guessing that is another discussion.


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## HighWirey

480sparky said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> What's a _scun_?


I'll second that bite, don't know. Google had 101,000 hits on scun, and the first few pages of hits did not match our trade.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## Bkessler

the last time I priced the differences, it was only about $2 more for the stranded.

Well then that must have been a few years ago. And to say stranded is more conforming than solid is true and .00000002 is bigger than .00000001


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## calimurray

Good enough I got the census I was looking for! iits about 50/50 all over the board. 

The real issue is how much time is wasted when your guys are whining about the solid wire?

On the job the last thing I want to hear is one my guys complaining about the material we chose to use.


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## brian john

No matter who has what say, I have little or no respect for electricians that use solid wire for switchgear controls ESPICALLY from the gear to a hinged door.


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## randomkiller

Any small (10-12 awg) wire spools I get from the shop are always stranded. I know it's easier to pull and for flexibility it's just better.


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## micromind

I agree with Brian, solid simply doesn't work for controls. Terminal blocks and relay terminations just can't clamp down on it enough. If it's used on the hinge side of a door, it'll get skinned eventually. Crimp connectors (red-blue-yellow) don't work very good either. Even if installed with a controlled-cycle tool. 

I like stranded better for most applications, but the company usually gets solid. Solid makes up nice in panels, and if you're familiar with it, it pulls just as easy. I absolutely refuse to pull solid for controls or things that vibrate. Solid thermostat wire is OK though, so is solid fire alarm wire.

We all have our preferences, and should install whatever we're comfortable with.

Rob


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## HighWirey

brian john said:


> What ever it takes.
> 
> You use solid to install controls in a switch gear and I'll slam the crap out of you.
> 
> Use stranded for branch circuit wiring for outlets and I'll question you on it.


Solid 12 for branch is good. Stranded 10 everywhere else.

Brian,

I always had 2500 lf rolls of 14 and 12 SIS available for 'inside the gear'. Isn't that great stuff?

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## brian john

Pretty much SIS is all we stock for gear work.


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## Mountain Electrician

HighWirey said:


> I'll second that bite, don't know. Google had 101,000 hits on scun, and the first few pages of hits did not match our trade.
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


Perhaps a small spot of damage to the wire's insulation caused by an improperly done pulling job. That's my guess.:thumbsup:

Also, my choice is stranded for commercial, always for industrial (period) and solid (romex) for residential.


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## Rong

480sparky said:


> Just y'all remember.... most folks here don't have much say on what they install. They install what the person who signs their paycheck says to install.


Exactly !!! I use what ever the EC supplies. Around these parts it is almost 100% stranded wire. I was not sure they still made solid wire and I am convinced that they do not make EMT anymore either. :laughing:


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## calimurray

> so now you are going to use the same argument against stranded wire that you did against the installers of solid wire having problems. Obviously, if you are working with inexperinced hands, everything is a challenge but try comparing apples to apples, not apples to watermelon.


I don't remember saying anything about the installers of 12 solid having problems installing the wire.

I never said anything about apples or watermelon were talking about wire.

I see from your point of view to, I hear everyday from the guys at work complaining. A guy told me the exact same thing about the cost of material is less then the labor I think I might have to disagree with you there also.

The costs of materials have gone through the roof , copper, conduit, etc. 
]
Ill tell ya one thing my paycheck has not increased due to the rising costs of materials.

I also made the point that in tight areas like motors and controls , relays etc. I prefer stranded over solid.


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## brian john

From a contractors stand point our rates have remained frozen (due to economy issues) as the manpower received raises, gas, copper, vehicle cost have gone up. That seems to affect my paycheck.

I am no economist and I doubt few economist even know the real answer but I think we are in for a few tough years.


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## nap

> ]I don't remember saying anything about the installers of 12 solid having problems installing the wire.


you said if installers were having trouble installing solid, it was from inexperience or inability.
your quote:


> I either have a bunch of lazy guys working around me accustomed to the easier softer way. Or they just don't know how to handle 12 solid.





> I never said anything about apples or watermelon were talking about wire.


it is an analogy. Either I am talking to a dolt or you are extemely sheltered. The actual term used is generally "compare apples to apples. Here we are comparing apples to oranges" I don;t care for oranges but I like watermelon.

It is an expression meaning you must compare similar subjects or the comparison is worthless.You wanted to bitch about installers not being able to install solid because of lack of training. Then you bitch about how an untrained hand not being able to pull stranded either. Now as I read this, it is apparent you simply want to bitch about your hands. If your hands aren't trained, then traind them or get somebody else. 

Train them right and they can pull either. To me, stranded is easier, faster, and has less injury from something happening so I use stranded. You can use whatever you want.



> I see from your point of view to, I hear everyday from the guys at work complaining. A guy told me the exact same thing about the cost of material is less then the labor I think I might have to disagree with you there also.


Like I posted before, the contractor I spoke of has a LOT more money than I and he is cheap where it benefits him. He uses stranded and he uses it for a reason. If it cost him more, you can bet he would be buying the solid, truckload at a time instead of stranded by the truckload (literally).






> Ill tell ya one thing my paycheck has not increased due to the rising costs of materials.


and the point being?



> I also made the point that in tight areas like motors and controls , relays etc. I prefer stranded over solid.


that does not alter your condemnation of your guys that gripe about solid. If you have a guy griping about you buying solid instead of stranded, tough stuff. If it bothers you that much, lay him off. Until then, this job is damn hard work and expressing his frustrations once in awhile is normal. Get over it or get rid of him.

Yes, my bosses overlook my bitchin' because I do damn god work and they have figured out youjust can't have everything in life. They would rather have a fantastic hand that bitches over one that doesn't say anything but sucks at his job. Make your choices and fight the battles worth fighting.

this isn't one of those worth fighting with your guys.

I guess after reading this thread several times, it isn't a matter of solid over stranded, it is you just want to bitch about your guys not being "as great as you are". I bet those guys are just as thrilled with you as you are with them.

Now the both of you have something in common:

common loathing of the other.


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## calimurray

Im sorry nap if I ruffled your feathers a bit you sound like your mad about something I said! Whatever Our argument was originally about seems long gone. 

The reason for my post was to gather up a general census across the board on what other electricians thought about solid over stranded. 

I merely stated my beliefs about this issue and so did some other members which I hold much respect for other members on this site. It seems to me it is 50/50 across the board , What you say is right and what I say is right.

You have a good day!:no:


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## BryanMD

So, in summary we have:
1) If the workers are untrained or trained poorly not much else matters.
2) The cost savings of any material choice can be chewed up by worker issues.
3) If the conduit layout is good it won't matter (as much) which wire type is used.
4) If the devices end up being loop & screw type you'll wish you had pulled solid.
5) Know the whole job before you start so your material and technique preferences are fully exploited.

Did I miss anything?


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## Bkessler

Ignore nap he drags down almost every thread he posts on. And this entire site in my opinion.


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## nap

Bkessler said:


> Ignore nap he drags down almost every thread he posts on. And this entire site in my opinion.


since I post factual and supported info?

If enough folks believe I do as you state, take a poll. If enough feel the same way, I'll go. Not a big deal. I beleive I do add a point many others do not so I do believe I add to this forum rather than detract but hey, I'm willing to hear the masses.


calimurray, as you state now, you merely wanted a poll. I saw your complaining about untrained guys (first with the solid wire and then when I supported stranded, you found ways to complain about them as well), as you complaining more than really being interested in the poll. Every time somebody brought out a plus for the stranded, you seemed not to defend the wire but find guys that could not deal with it. That is not debating the merits of the different types of wire, that is complaining about the guys working with or for you. If this forum is like others I post on, you can ignore my posts and you won;t even see them. Most forums have the ability to mark a members post as "ignore". Anybody is welcome to use it. I haven't looked because I learn from all members whether they be right or wrong and have no desire to use it.

I tend to ruffle feathers and no, I am not angry at anybody or anything, including you, or even bkessler. I have been on the pro side of many discussions here as well as being on the "con" side of them as well. One thing all must realize is if everybody is on the pro side, all you have is a bunch of guys giving each other a bunch of warm fuzzies and nobody learning anything. So, you want a warm fuzzy or a chance to learn anothers perspective?

Just in case it is the warm fuzzy, here you go.


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## Golden Arc

Solid for me its much easier to make up a panel with and make it look good. As said above you can fit more stranded into a four square box but its more likely to get pinched in covers because it wants to pop out.


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## calimurray

Nap can we agree to disagree?


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## nap

calimurray said:


> Nap can we agree to disagree?


absolutely. No problems. We all have our preferences and beliefs and that is why we discuss things. Sometimes those discussions change our minds about the subject; sometimes they don;t.

still doesn't mean we can't go on and discuss things in the future.


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## Louieb

I remember doing many jobs with 12 solid TW that really sucked! all those coils out of the boxes ,anyone still use that stuff ? 12 solid thhn isnt that bad,10 AWG solid is the worst!I agree solid is great for terminations.


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## HighWirey

Louieb said:


> I remember doing many jobs with 12 solid TW that really sucked! all those coils out of the boxes ,anyone still use that stuff ? 12 solid thhn isnt that bad,10 AWG solid is the worst!I agree solid is great for terminations.


Is small wire still dispensed in cardboard boxes? Those spools are sometimes a nusiance, however they beat those boxes hands down.

Had a project (a lot of long runs - the loaded circuit, VD thing) whose spec stated "all branch circuits shall be #10 THHN, solid". This included 'plugging and switching'. Instead of challenging the spec, I proceeded per spec . . .
I should have challenged that spec  Never pull #10 solid again!

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## Golden Arc

Louieb said:


> I remember doing many jobs with 12 solid TW that really sucked! all those coils out of the boxes ,anyone still use that stuff ? 12 solid thhn isnt that bad,10 AWG solid is the worst!I agree solid is great for terminations.



Cardboard box? Are you talking about the box that the spools come in usually 4 spools to a box. If you use a wire buggy its no problem. Usually the stranded is worse for coming off and wrapping around the bar on the buggy which is annoying.


As for the guy that said something about cost did you add in for termination stake ons because that would make it even more expensive.


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## nap

> As for the guy that said something about cost did you add in for termination stake ons because that would make it even more expensive


it was probably me but where do you find a requirement for stake ons?


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## HighWirey

Tim Crimson said:


> Cardboard box? Are you talking about the box that the spools come in usually 4 spools to a box. If you use a wire buggy its no problem. Usually the stranded is worse for coming off and wrapping around the bar on the buggy which is annoying.
> 
> 
> As for the guy that said something about cost did you add in for termination stake ons because that would make it even more expensive.


I notice your byline states that your a helper, maybe too young to have seen 'wire in a box'. 

Building wire used to be vended in square cardboard boxes, 500 lf to the box, very similar to the way comm wire is dispensed today. The manufacturers used to print a circular, dotted pattern on top of that cardboard box that you were supposed to cut out, fish out the correct wire end, then 'simply pull it'. 
All went well for the first few feet, then the cardboard dispensing hole got a tear in it, and it all was down hill from there 

Memory lane, anyone?

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## amptech

Tim Crimson said:


> Cardboard box? Are you talking about the box that the spools come in usually 4 spools to a box. If you use a wire buggy its no problem. Usually the stranded is worse for coming off and wrapping around the bar on the buggy which is annoying.
> 
> 
> As for the guy that said something about cost did you add in for termination stake ons because that would make it even more expensive.


I don't use stack-ons I use quality spec grade devices with pressure plate terminations. And yes, I did account for all of the aspects when I did a time study on a large commercial job. I've been at this 30 years, it wasn't my first rodeo.


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## brian john

I love these types of post. Something technical gets 4 or 5 post this thread over something simple that has a simple answer goes on and on. Oh and the answer.

The right conductor for the job based upon the installers preference.


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## a-bulb

brian john said:


> I love these types of post. Something technical gets 4 or 5 post this thread over something simple that has a simple answer goes on and on. Oh and the answer.
> 
> The right conductor for the job based upon the installers preference.


AMEN. The End...:laughing:


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## Bkessler

you mean you don't want to argue about it three times a day for a month. I mean it is such an important issue?


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## a-bulb

lets get it on. :boxing::wallbash: :laughing:


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## bulldog1770

As the Electrical estimator, I see a new trend in the Spec Book that solid wire is mandatory, except in the larger sizes of course..

All Electrical Foreman out there--start reading your spec books for your projects STOP Assuming you can do what you want--the specs over-rule the prints.. Know your job.... Make copies of 16000 and put them next to your print table, when in doubt READ THEM!


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## Bkessler

And buy some highlighters.


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## randomkiller

bulldog1770 said:


> As the Electrical estimator, I see a new trend in the Spec Book that solid wire is mandatory, except in the larger sizes of course..
> 
> All Electrical Foreman out there--start reading your spec books for your projects STOP Assuming you can do what you want--the specs over-rule the prints.. Know your job.... Make copies of 16000 and put them next to your print table, when in doubt READ THEM!


 
Or just cheaper????


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## bulldog1770

randomkiller said:


> Or just cheaper????


 
*Engineers and architects = Cheaper?* :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## randomkiller

bulldog1770 said:


> *Engineers and architects = Cheaper?* :laughing::laughing::laughing:


 
Two of my favorite targets, I mean guys to confer with.


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## bulldog1770

randomkiller said:


> Two of my favorite targets, I mean guys to confer with.


 
They are comical, and the egoes are just HUGE.. Like their paychecks,,,


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## dezwitinc

Louieb said:


> I remember doing many jobs with 12 solid TW that really sucked! all those coils out of the boxes ,anyone still use that stuff ? 12 solid thhn isnt that bad,10 AWG solid is the worst!I agree solid is great for terminations.


You must be as old as I am.
The boxes of solid that would rip apart, pulling your guts out trying to get the TW through the conduit.
Those were the good old days.
It was a red letter day if the supply truck happened to show up with stranded TW.
Ah yes I remember well.


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## Jeff000

te12co2w said:


> I buy stranded wire almost exclusively. I believe it is easier to pull if one man is working alone, which is quite often the case for us.


With solid you can often push the wire great distances along through EMT and PVC, heck even through coreline. 
Stranded requires pulling. 
I have only worked with stranded once, and that was only because an order was mistakenly made for stranded instead of solid. I must say I do NOT enjoy working with stranded. When the fill was close to max I found the stranded to be harder to pull then the solid. With solid the guy feeding can push as the other guy pulls and it goes pretty smooth. Wirelube helps in both instances. 




As for engineers.... they really should be required to work on a job site for a year as part of their training. That way they might realize some things are just not possible in real life like they are on paper, might also get the different engineers to converse a little so they can stop trying to put pot lights somewhere there is no drop ceiling, or put them inside ducts, etc.


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## DPDT

*A little off-topic but........*

Due to "skinning effect" would stranded have a slightly larger ampacity. Just throwing that out there?


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## brian john

Not at this voltage and frequency (I THINK) or so minimal as to be not worth the effort?


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## randomkiller

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still kicking.


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## brian john

> They are comical, and the egos are just HUGE.. Like their paychecks


First engineers and architects are just like any other profession good, bad, jerks and nice guys. Though I must admit there is a certain few that have the attitude WE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED and you're not. 

Many of my customers are engineers, and I get along with them quite well. I have had electricians tell me the engineers treat me different the they treat them.

As for the paychecks when I was on scale I was going to school to be an engineer, and was constantly looking in the paper for jobs ALL THE ENGINEERING JOBS paid less than scale, and my benefits were better.


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## HighWirey

randomkiller said:


> Wow, I can't believe this thread is still kicking.


Yea, kinda resembles one of Mikes . . . 100+ replies about locknuts :laughing:

Brian cannot quite fathom the concept either. He partially posted:

"I love these types of post. Something technical gets 4 or 5 post this thread over something simple that has a simple answer goes on and on"

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


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## brian john

For me it is a ego thing SORT OF, I posted what I thought was some thought provoking items and get a few responses, then ground up ground down walks away the winner.

As for Jeff000, Jeff read all the post and realize that just as the right tool for the right job, the right conductor for the right installation.

Some of this is preference and some of it is insulation type. One works in some places and one does not. APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION.

You use solid wire around here for switchgear modes or control wiring and you'd be laughed at. Use stranded to wire a house and same thing. Remeber our profession has a broad scope of work types and each type has it special requirements.

Question where do the majority of members of the IBEW work?

Answer in manufacturing (from an article I read two years ago, now with China and Mexico this might have changed).


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## Bkessler

Yeah but which is better?


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## Bkessler

:laughing:


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## brian john

Better question is what is the longest (most post) on Electrican Talk


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## brian john

And can we beat this thread in to the ground to the point where Big Brown looks like a triple crown winner.


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## nap

brian john said:


> Use stranded to wire a house and same thing. Remeber our profession has a broad scope of work types and each type has it special requirements.
> 
> Question where do the majority of members of the IBEW work?
> ).


you mean I have a choice? They make stranded NM now?


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## brian john

nap. I saw a house wired in Smurf Tube with stranded.


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## dowmace

brian john said:


> nap. I saw a house wired in Smurf Tube with stranded.


it was so much easier to pull than that stupid solid nm cable! :laughing:


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## Shaffer87

My shop uses a lot of stranded, we do a lot of projects that spec it. I will agree that pulling is a little easier but that hastle of making up panels with stranded can be time consuming.


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## JacksonburgFarmer

Well....I (being a Electrical Contractor) in exception of romex and #4 bare copper, only order stranded wire. If the SH brings solid...they get to visit me again....they have learned not to do that.....

Solid MC sucks....heck...MC in general sucks...but there is a time and place.


Prefered installation EMT conduit, setscrew fittings, and stranded wire. SOLID IS NOT NEGOTIABLE!!!


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## user4818

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Solid MC sucks....heck...MC in general sucks...but there is a time and place.


MC is great actually. Don't know why you would think it "sucks."


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## BuzzKill

yeah, its allright, you just gotta wear gloves when handling it...and my 2 cents on stranded vs. solid, who cares about how tough it's to pull, that's what helpers are for! :laughing::laughing:


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## mattsilkwood

solid wire is for tieing stuff up, ground up, mark your tools with purple tape.


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## acmax

*do a solid install*

most specs are called out . and unless I'am mistaken you install what the customer pays for. as far as working with solid #12 I can't believe any 
seasoned electrician would bother to comment on it. Always glad to work on # 10 and smaller.Stranded always looks like a birds nest in a box or panel.


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## Southeast Power

I think the limit for solid wire should be #14.
I have been on way too many service calls where the #12 has broken a device or came loose on a terminal screw. I could not justify using solid wire due to wire price.


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## 220/221

Tastes great!

Less filling!

I use stranded if the ground is up, solid if it's down.:jester:




They make different wire for different applications. It's not too hard to figure out which works best.

Sometimes it's a coin toss. One end of the termination may be better suited for stranded (existing stranded wire) and the other for solid (standard device).


BRW, kudos for reviving this beast.


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## electro916

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> SOLID IS NOT NEGOTIABLE!!!


Imagine working for a contractor that made you use solid wire for everything, EMT, IMC, RMC, greenfield, smurf tube...etc.

I had a discussion with my boss about it, after he called me into the office for seeing that I ordered 3000ft of stranded wire.
My argument was that the pipe runs were 280ft long with 3 90* bends.
His argument was that "thats not the way we do things here at(company name)." My reply was well If you wont let me use stranded, who else is going to wire the exhaust fans, Because all my other co-workers were HVAC Techs.


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## 2towbot

Gloves for MC ????
Never made a trip to the truck for my leathers just to work 
with MC ......maybe im lazy 

Unless your working it hot...........


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## jprince

*12 stranded*

Hi evrybody
I am a Licensed home inspector in Illinois. EMT is alive and well in the chicago metro area. All work in Chicago and most of it's collar counties is in pipe. I have a question abot 12 g stranded. I really don't see it to much up here in chicago,I did see it today though. Is it acceptable to be on a 20 amp breaker ? I read some where that with stranded you might have to move to 10 g or does it share the same properties as solid copper?


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## LGLS

jprince said:


> Hi evrybody
> I am a Licensed home inspector in Illinois.


Run man, run like the wind!


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## BuzzKill

So, Mr. Jprince, you do realize you have wandered into a wolf's den correct?


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## ralph

jprince said:


> Hi evrybody
> I am a Licensed home inspector in Illinois. EMT is alive and well in the chicago metro area. All work in Chicago and most of it's collar counties is in pipe. I have a question abot 12 g stranded. I really don't see it to much up here in chicago,I did see it today though. Is it acceptable to be on a 20 amp breaker ? I read some where that with stranded you might have to move to 10 g or does it share the same properties as solid copper?


OH GOD.
This is gonna be bad.


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## jprince

*I can take it LOL*

I can Take it. I like your guys professionalism is that a word LOL


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## 220/221

By "licenced", you mean you have a drivers licence.....right? :jester:

You are going to catch flak because you guys typically don't know enough about electrical to competently inspect anything.

The question is elec 101 stuff that you should have picked up in your "licencing" process.

The answer is, stranded and solid have the same ampacity ratings. Aluminum wire generally needs to be one size larger.

God have mercy on anyone who pays you good money to "inspect" their electrical system.:no:

At least you are asking question.


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## acmax

*when I know everything I need help!!!*

Well if you sing by the window ,someone is always willing to help you out.
Have done a fair amount of work do to home inspectors lack of knowledge.


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## jprince

Thanks I can take the abuse. Like you said at least I asked. I do keep you guys busy with easy fixes though LOL. Oh yeah License.


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## jprince

I was laughing earlier when someone said that they did not think metal conduit existed. There are only a few locations in the chicago area where NMS is permitted. It does not look like that is going to change. IBEW is strong here.


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## 220/221

Licence = noun

License = verb


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## bobelectric

Do they make stranded M C cable? Never looked for it.


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## JacksonburgFarmer

Using stranded does not cause rat nests or bird nests in boxes and or panels:no:.... I can build a panel w/ stranded neater than most can w/ solid. I prefer stranded, it is easier to make look nicer.......RAT NESTS ARE CREATED BY SPASTIC RATS>>>>:laughing:

MC sucks because I like pipe (You aint gonna change my mind either, but I do have 500' of 12/2 MC on the truck....)

I never wear gloves when working...Unless needed for hot work....or it is 0 outside.....Running MC, Running GRC, IMC, EMT, PVC, whatever....It is just my bare hands......Granted my hands look like a construction worker whom works this way....but my wife didnt marry me for girly hands....:laughing:


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## acmax

*in time*

beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Seems like in today's standards,if you drop the deadfront and there's no arcflash the panels fine.Using tie wraps never use to be good practice,along with braiding.But seems to be the standard for stranded.


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## macmikeman

bobelectric said:


> Do they make stranded M C cable? Never looked for it.


I ran a couple rolls of it when the supply house had some out front. I liked it a lot for dropping down walls into a tiger grip style box (cut in). The wires are easy to push back in the box without worry about pushing the box in too hard for the drywall. But for speed wiring thru studs and the like, the solid is better in my opinion.


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## astromandan

Hmmmm. Is scun a local term? I thought they were the little terminator connectors (try googling "cable scuns"


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## minichopper6hp

Solid sucks period. Ever try to add extra conductors to existing pipe with solid? Doesnt work that great.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk


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## Shockdoc

HighWirey said:


> I notice your byline states that your a helper, maybe too young to have seen 'wire in a box'.
> 
> Building wire used to be vended in square cardboard boxes, 500 lf to the box, very similar to the way comm wire is dispensed today. The manufacturers used to print a circular, dotted pattern on top of that cardboard box that you were supposed to cut out, fish out the correct wire end, then 'simply pull it'.
> All went well for the first few feet, then the cardboard dispensing hole got a tear in it, and it all was down hill from there
> 
> Memory lane, anyone?
> 
> Work'in For That Free Tee . . .


Do recall that High, in my first year the stuff the SH sold us came on metal spools, the stuff my boss had in the shop was in square cardboard boxes, Cerro TW. We decided to cut the TW for aluminum pigtails, at the time we were doing them about 3 times a week using Hyflex wirenuts.

Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app


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## dspiffy

I only buy solid. I get frustrated when I find stranded on an existing job and I CANT EXPLAIN WHY.


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## Southeast Power

I only see solid here when I find pipe and wire jobs installed in the 50s and 60s. All modern pipe jobs here are stranded.
If I see solid wire it is rare and I can only think that some frustrated rope slinger got himself over his head on a commercial job.
I friggin hate solid wire so much that I would pay $100 more per roll if I could get stranded MC.
I have ordered it a few times and its soooo nice to have.


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## Rong

I am so glad we don't have wire in the box anymore! If you were not careful it would tear and then it was basically worthless because the wire would get hung up. And Heaven help you if the box got wet!


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## Jlarson

I like solid wire for hanging up stuff to spray paint and for cleaning out evap cooler distributors.


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## Southeast Power

Rong said:


> I am so glad we don't have wire in the box anymore! If you were not careful it would tear and then it was basically worthless because the wire would get hung up. And Heaven help you if the box got wet!


i remember sitting on cardboard boxes of TW wire when working with my dad many years ao.


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## fistofbolts

I dont really care which way u go with #12. but I had a foreman give me solid #10 to pull for runs over 200ft. with maxed out bends. yes I told him how I felt about that afterwards.


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## Rong

fistofbolts said:


> I dont really care which way u go with #12. but I had a foreman give me solid #10 to pull for runs over 200ft. with maxed out bends. yes I told him how I felt about that afterwards.


Ya not so much!


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