# Shooting in the dark



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I am working on a proposal basically for budget needs. No drawings. Just ideas. I know what I am asking is nowhere near answerable with as little information as provided to me, but...

40000 square foot office area. 
Approximately 800 3 lamp 2x4s.
8' t-bar ceiling.
180 cubes.
phone/data/fire - all emt conduit.
30 floor boxes - power/data
8 - 225 amp 120/208 3 phase panels average 75' from vault.
All branch ckt and lighting in mc.
No HVAC figured.
Labor $70 an hour - direct cost.
Overhead - $65 an hour.
13 weeks supervision.

I'm at 860K.

Anyone complete a project even half assed similar to this recently to compare numbers?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> I am working on a proposal basically for budget needs. No drawings. Just ideas. I know what I am asking is nowhere near answerable with as little information as provided to me, but...
> 
> 40000 square foot office area.
> Approximately 800 3 lamp 2x4s.
> ...



BBQ might be able to help he does big jobs like that..

Good luck i hope you get the job...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Without prints, and a general idea of what I’m looking at (remodel of a high rise, 1 floor, or new coming out of the ground, in the slab, etc, tilt-up, or two stories) scared to even roll dice.
Just a WAG is 4 to 8 guys 2500 to 3200 man hours? Need more 101 information


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

It's a 2 story tilt up. The core is complete. Meter room is already complete. Stairwells and elevator are already wired. 1st floor on concrete slab, 2nd floor is Robertson decking. I forgot in the 1st post, 60 dry-walled offices. Building has sat vacant for 3 years. Company has signed a long term lease and will be moving in with 250 employees. 

The smoke that already been blown up my ass is that the project is mine. I am getting the impression that money isn't gonna be a problem. Job is not going out to bid. Board of Directors of parent company just need a basic idea of how much money to release, but they want it to be close. They don't want the General to be coming up with $10M when the project will only cost 4.5 mil. They are doing things a little backwards, but in this economy, I will adapt. 

For a one man shop, this could be a real game changer. I have already been in discussions with another EC who would be able to supply manpower, tools, and equipment.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

knowshorts said:


> phone/data/fire - all emt conduit.
> 
> 8 - 225 amp 120/208 3 phase panels average 75' from vault.


I don't work in the office.... but teledata in conduit... is that from a tray, free-aired to an EMT stub-up? That sounds funky for an office TI.

Your 8 sub-panels..... does the gear have breakers in it already? Is there any kind of situation where the breaker might be way more expensive? Are you going to have to set new transformers??

Obviously the VAV's are going to be electric-reheat. That's alot of juice, and a gaping hole in the budget if you ask me. What if it's heat pumps?

Sorry, I get hung up on alot of what-if's.


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## Krummholz (Feb 9, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> I am working on a proposal basically for budget needs. No drawings. Just ideas. I know what I am asking is nowhere near answerable with as little information as provided to me, but...
> 
> 40000 square foot office area.
> Approximately 800 3 lamp 2x4s.
> ...


I've been estimating some 20 years now, and the bulk of projects I've done are office buildings and office TI work.

Dunno what type of fixtures you're installing (parabolic, direct/indirect, etc.) but 800 sounds a little high, quantity-wise. You're at 1 fixture / 50 square feet, I usually budget in open offices 1/70 sqft. 

Are lighting controls figured into your lighting? 

I dunno, I've budgeted similar projects with less information than you have here - ballpark numbers these days being in the $18 - $28 / sqft range for a TI within an existing facility. Lighting of course has skyrocketed in the past 20 years - I used to budget $3.75 / sqft for parabolic plus about $1.50 for controls. Today, lighting is averaging anywhere from $8 - $15 / sqft. and controls between $2.50 and $5.50 for typical systems (sans full-blown stuff like daylight harvesting).

Furniture systems I'd typically budget around $1.50 - $2.00/sqft; HVAC at between $0.45 and $0.60. Gear always varies depending on what's there and what must be supplemented, system voltage, etc. and there are several ways of looking at it from a budget perspective (VA / Sqft, # of circuits and type). For 180 cubicles I'd budget each with a dedicated circuit. Lighting at 10 fixtures / circuit. Then circuits for printers, copiers, breakroom and kitchen loads, etc. so with 8 panels you're probably OK. Someone else asked about transformers (assuming lighting and HVAC are 277/480v) with cubicles 120/208 - which implies some transformation needed.

Anyway - all that notwithstanding, several things jumped right out at me:
$70/hour direct labor? Must be your locale because we're lucky to get $20 in Colorado. :001_huh:

The other thing that raised a red flag was you being a "one man shop." Can you handle the cash flow needs such a project will demand (fixture package, gear package, payroll, miscellaneous materials? Do you have that big a line of credit or cash on hand to do a project that size? Can you handle not being paid for 30- 45- 60 days or more after you've shelled out cash to purchase materials or pay for payroll?

I guess that was the big thing that stood out to me. $860k is a big project for my company (30 field crew, 8 office staff); I can't imagine a one-man shop having the financial resources to pull off a project that size. Don't know your financial situation - but that's a huge, huge risk for a one-man shop who must basically hire everything out.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

I agree with being high on the fixtures. I printed out a 2x4 grid and scaled out 100 x 200 and filled in a typical lighting layout. Already on site are stairwells, one electric room, elevator, elevator equipment room, and a small foyer. So no new fixtures in these areas. Also walls will be built for offices, conference rooms, etc., eliminating quite a few fixtures, but they may spec out high end down lights or d/i lay ins, so it may end up being a wash. 

After redoing everything I am at a high ball park of $1.1M

Distribution (based on 2nd floor E room farthest point from 1st floor E room) - $2.10/square foot
Outlets (drywall) - $10.57/square foot
Cubes (floor box feeds)- $6.29/square foot
Lighting (including basic wall controls and basic EMS system) - $7.75/square foot
HVAC - $1.01/square foot
Phone/Data (boxes/stubs only) - $1.31/square foot
F/A - (boxes/stubs only) - $0.88/square foot

For a total of $27.67/square foot

The scary part is the cash flow. I have access to 20% and my other EC partner has access to the rest, but it's a lot easier to eat a 10% mistake on a $50K job than a 10% mistake on a $1.1M job. When I get detailed drawings and can accurately bid the project, if money can't be made, then I will walk. It has to be a no brainer for me. 

I have ran jobs like this in the past as an employee, and I can almost do it in my sleep, but when it's my money on the line, it can definitely cause gray hairs. 

As with the higher labor costs (which includes all direct labor costs and a 85% efficiency rate), I believe in higher wages pays off in the long run. Between myself and the guy I am partnering with, we have a small group of really good guys we can count on. A higher wage produces a better, faster product and is a lot more manageable.


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## Krummholz (Feb 9, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> I agree with being high on the fixtures. I printed out a 2x4 grid and scaled out 100 x 200 and filled in a typical lighting layout. Already on site are stairwells, one electric room, elevator, elevator equipment room, and a small foyer. So no new fixtures in these areas. Also walls will be built for offices, conference rooms, etc., eliminating quite a few fixtures, but they may spec out high end down lights or d/i lay ins, so it may end up being a wash.
> 
> After redoing everything I am at a high ball park of $1.1M
> 
> ...


All in all, it's the cash flow that bothers me most in all this (and wishing *we* could bid $70 / hr, but I digress ); but it sounds like you have a decent handle on it.

It's [cash flow] not a trivial thing and one that could easily drive you into bankruptcy regardless how good an electrician you are; and there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who are just looking for the right contractor whom they can take advantage of - so be very very careful, shrewd, and wise.


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