# Solve This Service Call



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

open nuetral open ground.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Open neutral.

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> open nuetral open ground.



And the odds of that are...........







?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Open neutral.
> 
> ~Matt



Plug-in tester doesn't indicate that. No lights at all.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Plug-in tester doesn't indicate that. No lights at all.


You actually trust a plug in tester?:whistling2:
I only believe them if the two correct lights are on.:laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Does the volt pen light in both the H and N sockets?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> You actually trust a plug in tester?:whistling2:
> I only believe them if the two correct lights are on.:laughing:


Only to test for an open neutral _or_ an open ground. A plug-in tester will at least indicate as much. But _no_ lights?........... the Fluke gets pulled out.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Open hot, and your screamer is sensing ghost voltage?

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Does the volt pen light in both the H and N sockets?


Yes .


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Only to test for an open neutral. A plug-in tester will at least indicate as much. But _no_ lights?........... the Fluke gets pulled out.


Yea I pull out the ideal tracer at that point.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

When did it stop working, before or after the screen install?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> And the odds of that are...........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


pretty slim. But if there are no lights and you did a live dead live test with your plug tester then did the same with your NCV tester, I would test the hot against a known grounded conductor to see.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Open hot, and your screamer is sensing ghost voltage?
> 
> ~Matt



That was one thought, but I put a voltmeter to the terminals of the recep and got some strange readings. Consistent, but strange.

42v h-n
27v h-g
18v n-g

They didn't waver much.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> When did it stop working, before or after the screen install?


After .


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> After .


Any electrical alterations made during the install? By a non spark perhaps.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That was one thought, but I put a voltmeter to the terminals of the recep and got some strange readings. Consistent, but strange.
> 
> 42v h-n
> 27v h-g
> ...


Those voltages seem kind of right for ghost voltages. Are these readings with a LowZ adapter on your meter?

~Matt


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Wonder if the recep in the ceiling they added for the projector could be the issue. Maybe a bad splice?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Any electrical alterations made during the install? By a non spark perhaps.



That's where I was headed. Remember, this used to be a bedroom. Now there's a screen right next to the door. That tell you anything?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That's where I was headed. Remember, this used to be a bedroom. * Now there's a screen right next to the door.* That tell you anything?


Like where the switch for the overhead light used to be?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Wonder if the recep in the ceiling they added for the projector could be the issue. Maybe a bad splice?



Good thought, but no dice. I was there to add the outlet as well. There used to be a ceiling fan right next to the projector, so I tapped off that box to feed it, and blanked the box off.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's where I was headed. Remember, this used to be a bedroom. Now there's a screen right next to the door. That tell you anything?


Look for a light switch. Maybe a Dimmer, fan control.. etc.

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Like where the switch for the overhead light used to be?



It got moved.

From here:











To here:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That was one thought, but I put a voltmeter to the terminals of the recep and got some strange readings. Consistent, but strange.
> 
> 42v h-n
> 27v h-g
> ...


 hate that...I'll go with opn N.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Could be in a burried box in the wall......or yard if B4T did it.:thumbsup:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It got moved.
> 
> From here:
> 
> ...


2 switches? Is one for a switched outlet?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

They were using that bare "fan wire" weren't they?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> 2 switches? Is one for a switched outlet?



Ceiling fan w/light. But that was one thing I checked for..... when the box got switched, maybe the constant hot that fed the recep somehow got put on a switch. But both switches went to the only 14-3 in the box, one red and one black.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> hate that...I'll go with opn N.



An open noodle should still have 120v steady h-g.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Ceiling fan w/light.


Did there used to be a switched outlet?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> They were using that bare "fan wire" weren't they?


120v on the ground


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Yes .


 that's odd...my Ideal only goes off in the hot slot


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Did there used to be a switched outlet?


Not that I could tell. There were three 14-2s and one 14-3 in the box. All the whites were tied together, and the blacks of the 14-2s were as well, plus two pigtails for the 2 switches. The red and black of the 14-3 went to the fan/light.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> that's odd...my Ideal only goes off in the hot slot


An open or switched neutral will usually cause it to light in both. I find switched neutrals that way a lot.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> An open or switched neutral will usually cause it to light in both. I find switched neutrals that way a lot.


But the plug in tester would still ight 1 light of the plug in tester from H-G

~Matt


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

rats/squirells/rodents?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not that I could tell. There were three 14-2s and one 14-3 in the box. All the whites were tied together, and the blacks of the 14-2s were as well, plus two pigtails for the 2 switches. The red and black of the 14-3 went to the fan/light.


So 1 in, 2 out, and a fan feed. 

Screw through the wire feeding the outlet?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I would have Tested h n g against a known grounded conductor. Its obvious the readings your getting are diferences and one has 120 v With respect to ground. Whatever burried splice or ghetto wiring is causing it can be determined by knowing exactly what is on each line to ground.

back to that fan wire ...

How do you keep a hack in suspense??


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> rats/squirells/rodents?



Possible. But again, what are the odds of one of those critters taking out both the noodle _and_ the ground?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Defective test equipment.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> But the plug in tester would still ight 1 light of the plug in tester from H-G
> 
> ~Matt


Not if there is no ground, almost got the **** shocked out of me on an ungrounded switched neutral fan box once. From then on I check with a t5 or a DMM.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Defective test equipment.


Then everything the HO has plugged into those 4 outlets is defective as well. :laughing:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Not if there is no ground, almost got the **** shocked out of me on an ungrounded switched neutral fan box once. From then on I check with a t5 or a DMM.


Oh, I mis-read your comment anyway.. oops!:whistling2:

~Matt


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Faulty AFCI.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Faulty AFCI.


Everything in the room is on the same plain-jane breaker.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Was the ground hooked up?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Even the two working plugs?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Even the two working plugs?



And the can lights and projector as well.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gremlins?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Was the ground hooked up?



The ground where?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

When the breaker is off, do you still get readings on the 3 problematic plugs?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> gremlins?


I hope not. I didn't want to be there past midnight to feed them. :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> When the breaker is off, do you still get readings on the 3 problematic plugs?


They all went to zero.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Was the cam on the hampster wheel ceased?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Did you manage to fix it?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Did you manage to fix it?



Of course.:whistling2: And congrats on your 100th post!


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

gold said:


> I would have Tested h n g against a known grounded conductor. Its obvious the readings your getting are diferences and one has 120 v


 he's got a point here


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I have come to the conclusion this entire thread is a set up for either a scotchkote or 250.52 joke.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I still think screw through the wire feeding the outlet is a plausible option.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> he's got a point here



Yea, but if he combs his hair just right, no one will ever see it. :laughing:


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I wouldn't trust the plug tester as a trouble-shooter.
I wouldn't trust the tic tracer as a trouble-shooter.
I've had experiences where I used them for trouble-shooting and they both misled me and I ended up chasing my tail for hours.

I think your DMM is correct, you're actually reading those voltages. But with no current. I'd bet a round of drinks this is induced ghost voltage and there's an open hot somewhere after the last working device. 

Check with a low-impedence tester or put a load on the hot conducter and see if your voltage drops off.

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> I have come to the conclusion this entire thread is a set up for either a scotchkote or 250.52 joke.



No, no Scotchkote set-up. Genuine troubleshooting call.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> I have come to the conclusion this entire thread is a set up for either a scotchkote or 250.52 joke.


I have come to the conclusion that you are an electrode hack so... :laughing:



> No, no Scotchkote set-up. Genuine troubleshooting call.


Not denying the 250.52 part, hum?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> I wouldn't trust the plug tester as a trouble-shooter.
> I wouldn't trust the tic tracer as a trouble-shooter.
> I've had experiences where I used them for trouble-shooting and they both misled me and I ended up chasing my tail for hours.
> 
> ...


You're getting warmer.......... warmer...........:whistling2:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> ...........Not denying the 250.52 part, hum?


No, simply because I must have missed the 250.52 jokes.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Not denying the 250.52 part, hum?


He said they fell back to 0 when he shut the breaker off so it isnt a stray fault current.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

F'ed up back stab cause you said it is #14.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

The switch was off.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Plugs wired in series.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You're getting warmer.......... warmer...........:whistling2:


 Alright, then 20 questions:
Were you able to determine the problem without adding any additional load?



jza said:


> Plugs wired in series.


 I've never seen or even heard of someone doing that, but it would make sense. How funny would that be!

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Alright, then 20 questions:
> Were you able to determine the problem without adding any additional load?


Yes. And it didn't take long to deduce the problem. _Fixing_ it, however, took some doing.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> F'ed up back stab cause you said it is #14.



Recep under screen was pigtailed.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Recep under screen was pigtailed.


As in there where other wires in the box? Not just a dead end.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> As in there where other wires in the box? Not just a dead end.



Yes, an 'in' and an 'out'. Receps were daisy-chained.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Yes, an 'in' and an 'out'. Receps were daisy-chained.


So it was fed before and it was upstream of the other 2 working receps?


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Was the projector fed from the smoke detector?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Was there anything else (that you know of) wired to this circuit after those dead receptacles...?

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> So it was fed before and it was upstream of the other 2 working receps?



You're zeroing in, I think. Remember, there were three 14-2s in the switch box.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Was there anything else (that you know of) wired to this circuit after those dead receptacles...?
> 
> -John



Never checked for that.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're zeroing in, I think. Remember, there were three 14-2s in the switch box.


Where did the 3rd 14-2 go? I would have one in, one out to the first recep, and a 14-3 to the fan. And you said all the blacks were tied together and all the whites where tied together. Hum


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Were all the voltages in the switch box normal?

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Where did the 3rd 14-2 go? I would have one in, one out to the first recep, and a 14-3 to the fan. And you said all the blacks wee tied togeter and all the whites where tied together. Hum



Well, one trick I use is to think "OK, how would *I *have wired this?" So with three 14-2s, one is the feed.... now where would the other two go?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Were all the voltages in the switch box normal?
> 
> -John



Never put a meter there.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Well, one trick I use is to think "OK, how would *I *have wired this?" So with three 14-2s, one is the feed.... now where would the other two go?


I would have assumed the 3rd 14-2 was an old switched recep. Or a feed to another room.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I would have assumed the 3rd 14-2 was an old switched recep. Or a feed to another room.


You're close...... but there's no other rooms on that end of the basement.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, one trick I use is to think "OK, how would *I *have wired this?" So with three 14-2s, one is the feed.... now where would the other two go?


 That's what I'm wondering. If the feed hit the switch box first, then I would expect that that one 14-2 goes left to the working receptacles and one 14-2 goes right to the dead receptacles.

EDIT: But thinking "How would I wire it" unless there was an obstruction on the far wall, there's no reason I wouldn't just circle the room with one wire, so maybe the above doesn't apply.

-John


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're close...... but there's no other rooms on that end of the basement.


Someone mixed up the 2 some how and one wasn't really supposed to feed a recep?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> That's what I'm wondering. If the feed hit the switch box first, then I would expect that that one 14-2 goes left to the working receptacles and one 14-2 goes right to the dead receptacles.
> 
> -John


Bingo!:thumbsup:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Bingo!:thumbsup:


So what caused the 14-2 feeding the single recep to kick the bucket?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

partial short between neutral and hot.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Bingo!:thumbsup:


 Alright, so we're 50% there. Now where those low voltages actually ghost, or were they solid?

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> So what caused the 14-2 feeding the single recep to kick the bucket?



Not a single recep... the first in a row of four.

So now we know that we have everything up to the switches in good order, since the lights and the 'other' side of the room has good power.

So the problem lies where?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not a single recep... the first in a row of four.
> 
> So now we know that we have everything up to the switches in good order, since the lights and the 'other' side of the room has good power.
> 
> So the problem lies where?


If they are pigtailed, bad pigtail, splice or outlet.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Alright, so we're 50% there. Now where those low voltages actually ghost, or were they solid?
> 
> -John



They were _consistent_, but I never put a load on it to see what would happen. I suspected ghost, but I thought that whatever was causing it would have to be fixed. And fixing it outright would be faster than testing for it.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> If they are pigtailed, bad pigtail, splice or outlet.



Or a bad splice in the switchbox?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Or a bad splice in the switchbox?


But don't the other ones down stream work?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> partial short between neutral and hot.



You mean a high-resistance fault? A short should trip the breaker.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> But don't the other ones down stream work?



The 2 receps on the left side of the pix work fine, the four on the right don't. And now we know that they're all fed with two 14-2s, one that works and one that doesn't.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The 2 receps on the left side of the pix work fine, the four on the right don't.


Well then it is probably a bad H splice in the switch box or at the first recep.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Or a bad splice in the switchbox?


 So, is that really what it was? An almost-but-no-cigar splice on one black conductor?

That can't be it. You said it was hard to fix.

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> So, is that really what it was? An almost-but-no-cigar splice on one black conductor?
> 
> -John





Jlarson said:


> Well then it is probably a bad H splice in the switch box or at the first recep.



That was my first thought. The splice in the recep box looked untouched since the house was built (maybe 10-15 years ago). The rat's nest in the switch box, since it had been monkeyed with, was a different story.


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You mean a high-resistance fault? A short should trip the breaker.


Something like that, since you said it wasn't as easy fix.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That was my first thought. The splice in the recep box looked untouched since the house was built (maybe 10-15 years ago). The rat's nest in the switch box, since it had been monkeyed with, was a different story.


So it's either a splice in the switch box or the 14-2 is compromised between the switch and the first recep.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> So it's either a splice in the switch box or the 14-2 is compromised between the switch and the first recep.



So which would you check first?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Way out in left field for the heck of it, someone forgot to strip the insulation on the black wire feeding the receps.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So which would you check first?


Splice first then ring out the romex.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Splice first then ring out the romex.



And by checking the splice, what would you look for?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> And by checking the splice, what would you look for?


Broken wire, not made up tight, or cause I saw it once post #105.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Broken wire, not made up tight, or cause I saw it once post #105.



I took it apart, so I could identify the three 14s.... power in and which power out went to which side of the room. But it looked pretty solid before I did.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I took it apart, so I could identify the three 14s.... power in and which power out went to which side of the room. But it looked pretty solid before I did.


Then I would ring out the romex.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Then I would ring out the romex.



Which I did. All three checked for continuity.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I took it apart, so I could identify the three 14s.... power in and which power out went to which side of the room. But it looked pretty solid before I did.


 So, we have strong reason to believe it's in the switch box.

But the neutrals are spliced together as they should be.

The hots are spliced together as they should be.

The splices look solid, and there aren't any missed conductors because I asked that one.

The switches were properly tied to the fan/light portion. 

What else is there? We're running out of options for this switch box.

-John


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Which I did. All three checked for continuity.


I don't see it being bad splices on both so a cut in the 14-2 perhaps?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> ............
> 
> What else is there? We're running out of options for this switch box.
> 
> -John


Well, if the splices in the switch box are good, and the splices in the recep box are good, that leaves......?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I don't see it being bad splices on both so a cut in the 14-2 perhaps?



If that's your diagnosis, how would you address the problem now?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Re-run the Romex feeding the first plug.


----------



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Could be in a burried box in the wall......or yard if B4T did it.:thumbsup:


It's not an _outdoor_ theater..  :laughing:


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Well, if the splices in the switch box are good, and the splices in the recep box are good, that leaves......?


The cable between.

~Matt


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Well, if the splices in the switch box are good, and the splices in the recep box are good, that leaves......?


I there going to be an in the wall splice in here some where?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, if the splices in the switch box are good, and the splices in the recep box are good, that leaves......?


 Alright, so then it is the conductors between, which explains why it took work, because you had to refeed the receptacle, I'm thinking.

Someone already asked if there was a screw in the wire, I take it the answer was "No." Did you happen to find a splice of some type between the switch and receptacle? 

-John


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If that's your diagnosis, how would you address the problem now?


I would short N and G on one end and ohm to check then I would probably end up fishing a new 14-2.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I there going to be an in the wall splice in here some where?


No buried splice.


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Many of you blow off the Ideal 61-165 SureTest as a glorified recep tester. You are so wrong. Run loop impedance and go backwards from the prob. Ken.

The 165 SureTest is NOT an inspectors tool. It was engineered for this EXACT app. and it's not a toy. I thought that of it for quite awhile, and then realized for the $, it was a good choice to add to the arsenal.


The Fluke 1653 has the loop impedance function, but is not marketed in the US. I bought the 165 SureTest because of that. It has helped me several times:thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Alright, so then it is the conductors between, which explains why it took work, because you had to refeed the receptacle, I'm thinking.
> 
> Someone already asked if there was a screw in the wire, I take it the answer was "No." Did you happen to find a splice of some type between the switch and receptacle?
> 
> -John


I never checked for continuity between conductors, because that would cause the breaker to trip.

By now, I'm thinking I have to replace/refeed the recep from the switch. May sound easy to do, but there's at least 2 stud between them. 










I took the switch box splices apart, and removed the box. Standard stud cavity.










I did the same with the recep box, and I'm looking at the poured concrete foundation.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

76nemo said:


> Many of you blow off the Ideal 61-165 SureTest as a glorified recep tester. You are so wrong. Run loop impedance and go backwards from the prob. Ken.


It's on my wish list. Maybe Santa will bring me one.







Or maybe some forum member will take pity on po' ol' me.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> ...I did the same with the recep box, and I'm looking at the *poured concrete foundation*.


 Zuh?? :blink: I thought you said this was NM...? There must've been a cavaty where the wall was framed out from the cement.

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Zuh?? :blink: I thought you said this was NM...? There must've been a cavaty where the wall was framed out from the cement.
> 
> -John


Still a stud cavity, but it was the outside basement foundation.

To the left of the door is an inside corner of the foundation:












So we now know the 14-2 between the switches and the first recep is toast.

Any ideas on how to refeed the recep from the switches?


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Surface mount EMT.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Surface mount EMT.


And use PVC boxes and Scotchkote? :laughing:

Oops. Sorry, I said no Scotchkote jokes. :whistling2:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jza said:


> Surface mount EMT.


 like they do in Chicago.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Still a stud cavity, but it was the outside basement foundation.
> 
> To the left of the door is an inside corner of the foundation:
> 
> ...


 If I didn't have to worry about punching through the back of the wall because of the concrete foundation, I'd slide a D'versibit in through the switch box hole and drill towards the receptacle. It's only two bays.

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> If I didn't have to worry about punching through the back of the wall because of the concrete foundation, I'd slide a D'versibit in through the switch box hole and drill towards the receptacle. It's only two bays.
> 
> -John


Yea, but I'm not angled toward the crete..... I'm angled toward the screen. At least if I drill from the switch box. And I really don't wanna buy a new screen.

Two other options I thought of:

1. Take the screen down and just tear the drywall apart. Fix the dang thing and hang the screen back up over the cluster I just made. Naaaa. not really a professional solution IMO. So that gets labeled Plan C.

2. Use the bad 14-2 to pull in a new 14-2. After all, since I could wiggle it at the switch box and see it move at the recep, what do I have to lose?


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 2. Use the bad 14-2 to pull in a new 14-2. After all, since I could wiggle it at the switch box and see it move at the recep, what do I have to lose?


 Bearing in mind we also don't know why the NM mysteriously crapped out. I'm betting you're gonna pull something interesting out of there....

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> Bearing in mind we also don't know why the NM mysteriously crapped out. I'm betting you're gonna pull something interesting out of there....
> 
> -John



Yea, using the old to pull in new seemed the quickest option since I already had a lot of tools there, along with a roll of 14-2.

Besides, I wanted to see if I could pull the old out and see what I find.

So I hook my 14-2 on at the recep box and pull from the switch. It goes about 2 feet and stops dead. I pull a bit back at the recep, and pull at the switch again. 





























Smooth as silk.......... then this comes out:

















Now keep in mind that I most likely twisted things up pulling around a sharp bend, so this probably looked a lot better while still in the wall.

I opened it up a bit and took another shot:


----------



## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Seven pages for a broken piece of Romex.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jza said:


> Seven pages for a broken piece of Romex.



That's the idea, jza. Maybe some cubby will read this and remember it next time he/she comes across a similar situation.


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

480sparky said:


> jza said:
> 
> 
> > Seven pages for a broken piece of Romex.
> ...


 At least we did get to the end of it. If I hadn't found out what was actually wrong, I think it really would've started bothering me after 7 pages of thinking about it. :thumbup:

-John


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

so what the hell happened to it? looks like rodents!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> At least we did get to the end of it. If I hadn't found out what was actually wrong, I think it really would've started bothering me after 7 pages of thinking about it. :thumbup:
> 
> -John


Trust me... if I don't have the solution, I wouldn't post the thread in this manner. I would be asking questions and looking for options under a "HELP!" title instead.



BuzzKill said:


> so what the hell happened to it? looks like rodents!


My guess is a RotoZip. But I screwed it up enough pulling it out that I'll never know.

What I failed to do is run my inspection camera down the wall to see if I could find what caused it, but it was already late afternoon, and I still had to put it all back together, test everything, and load up. It took me 7 trips to get everything back out to the van, and I just wanted to go home. One, because it's Friday and two, I know the owner would have a check for me tonight.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

So you were reading voltage through a high resistance "connection"

You got lucky on the romex pulling in the new romex - I usually get stuck with romex that has 50 staples in it, no way i could use it as a pull string.

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> So you were reading voltage through a high resistance "connection"
> 
> You got lucky on the romex pulling in the new romex - I usually get stuck with romex that has 50 staples in it, no way i could use it as a pull string.
> 
> ~Matt


I think I was luckier that the old NM didn't just pull apart. Looks like about half the sheath was all that was holding it together. Maybe the conductors were intact until I hit the stop.... who knows. I did have to remove the staple over the recep box, but a long cabinet-tip takes care of those pretty easy.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I think I was luckier that the old NM didn't just pull apart. Looks like about half the sheath was all that was holding it together. Maybe the conductors were intact until I hit the stop.... who knows. I did have to remove the staple over the recep box, but a long cabinet-tip takes care of those pretty easy.


Either way - its nice when things turn out for the better :thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Either way - its nice when things turn out for the better :thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt



I'm sure payback for the 'smooth as silk' part will come next week.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'm sure payback for the 'smooth as silk' part will come next week.


It always does.

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> It always does.
> 
> ~Matt



Story of my life, too.


Thanks to all who participated. Maybe we saved someone some aggravation someday, or some noob will shine a little brighter for the boss! :thumbsup:


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Who said this again? said:


> open nuetral open ground.


 
Post #2 Just sayin ...


----------



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

gold said:


> Post #2 Just sayin ...


 This is definitely not a 70E recommended practice, but:

If you have a suspected hot conductor of a grounded system and no solid ground point to test against, and you are using a* meter with a high impedence of 1 megaohm or better* you can put one lead on the conductor, and then touch the other lead.

Not sure what it is about the human body, but my experience is that you'll usually get a reading within about 20 volts of true. So if there was a solid hot there, you would've seen the reading increase from 40 volts to probably 90 volts. It would've been a good clue to go on.

If you do try this with a wiggy, it will shock the snot out of you, so I assume absolutely no responsibility if you manage to get yourself lit up while trying this. :whistling2:

-John


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Big John said:


> This is definitely not a 70E recommended practice, but:
> 
> If you have a suspected hot conductor of a grounded system and no solid ground point to test against, and you are using a* meter with a high impedence of 1 megaohm or better* you can put one lead on the conductor, and then touch the other lead.
> 
> ...


I used to do that with the old single neon-lamp voltage indicators. :blink:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

gold said:


> open nuetral open ground.


Why would an open ground cause that?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gold said:


> Post #2 Just sayin ...


But your 'guess' didn't locate & solve the problem, it merely identified it. And it was still a shot-in-the-dark guess.


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> But your 'guess' didn't locate & solve the problem, it merely identified it. And it was still a shot-in-the-dark guess.


Guess? Based on using a plug tester live dead live with no lights and a NCV live dead live showing a voltage as I said in my second post. I would say it was a bit more then a shot in the dark. It was dead on. Tho I didnt locate where or solve it as you said.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> That's the idea, jza. Maybe some cubby will read this and remember it next time he/she comes across a similar situation.


I should start posting some of these. I run into odd ones all the time. Most involving controls and motors.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> I should start posting some of these. I run into odd ones all the time. Most involving controls and motors.


You should - I would like to learn more about motors and controls, as I really dont have much exposure to them.:thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> You should - I would like to learn more about motors and controls, as I really dont have much exposure to them.:thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt


All done check the commercial section. :thumbsup:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bet my ideal 61-954 would of found that pretty quick.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Bet my ideal 61-954 would of found that pretty quick.



How can it? Didn't the batterys take an acidic dump?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How can it? Didn't the batterys take an acidic dump?


I mean the one that still works...


----------



## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I used to do that with the old single neon-lamp voltage indicators. :blink:


Took the words right off my keyboard. I still do often. Just don't do it barefoot.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I used to do that with the old single neon-lamp voltage indicators. :blink:





superdeez said:


> Took the words right off my keyboard. I still do often. Just don't do it barefoot.


Can you guys explain this with a little more detail please, I'm not following.


----------



## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

Take your old neon voltage tester, single neon lamp two probes and put one probe in your fingers. (I usually use my right hand, theoretically so the electricity has a longer path to my sinus nerves.) Touch the other probe to a wire, terminal, etc. If the tester lights up only slightly, you have "hotness" as I call it at a point on the circuit. The ticker can do this most of the time too, but this is slightly more accurate. If you have shoes on, you won't feel a shock and the checker will come on dimly. If you're barefoot you get shocked and the lamp comes on bright. Last time I did this was on a bathroom fan triple switch to find the feeder. Also too, you could put your little finger on a fixture body or j box, hold the probe in your fingers (IE ground your hand not your body) and touch a wire with the tester probe (like if you're on a fiberglass ladder). It helps you figure out that in this fixture the green wire is actually the hot and the orange is supposed to be the neutral. (Don't get me started....)


----------

