# Liability/Safety concerns: Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians?



## Joe Tedesco

Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.​ 
Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.​ 
Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)​ 
Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex).​ 
Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.)​ 
Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.​ 
Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end.​ 
Installing cable connectors to metal boxes​ 
Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes.​ 
Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs.​ 
Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches.​ 
Unboxing lighting fixtures.​ 
Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids.​ 
Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures.​ 
Nailing recessed lights to joists.​


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## brian john

In my 36 years of experience most of what you listed is/was always completed by an electrician or someone working under an electrician, with possible the exception of opening boxes, moving electrical supplies, tools.


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## MDShunk

> Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.​


There is code that covers this, so I say that an electrician needs to do it.




> Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)​


I don't have a problem with a non-electrician doing this, but they better be prepared for a change order or the wrath of God if the holes aren't centered, causing me to have to use nail plates (in wood studs).




> Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex).​


electrician




> Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.)​


electrician, because there's code on this.




> Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.​


hopefully, someone other than an electrician




> Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end.​


I'm torn. I don't know. 




> Installing cable connectors to metal boxes​


electrician




> Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes.​


electrician




> Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs.​


electrician




> Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches.​


ELECTRICIAN!!! This is a major gripe of mine. Excavators stealing all the underground conduit and duct bank work from electricians. I reported an excavation contractor who was installing street lighting conduits in my town, and nothing was done about it. 




> Unboxing lighting fixtures.​


Jose.




> Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids.​


Laborer



> Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures.​


Laborer. 




> Nailing recessed lights to joists.​


I don't care who. I can't see someone screwing this up bad enough to cause a code violation or safety hazard


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## John

All the above tasks should be done under the direct supervision of a Licensed Electrician, but in the real world it just doesn't happen. The NEC should go hand in hand with a NEL (National Electrician License) to get rid of the Unlicensed Scabs doing electrical work. No Exceptions, No loopholes.

No way this is going to happen is it?:no:


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## HCECalaska

why dont we make this statement complete john, they should be done by a licensed electrician employed by an electrical contractor..
the trade would be better overall if the "side job" no longer existed, and all work was performed by contractors that are licensed and insured to do the work.


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## brian john

NO instead the parts that might get bitten in the lower 48, just freeze off.


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## JohnJ0906

Marc, I have to disagree with you whistling2: ) on the installation of lay-ins and wire/clips. I like to see someone who knows what they are doing to secure lights. Although you could train a laborer, I suppose


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## MDShunk

JohnJ0906 said:


> Marc, I have to disagree with you whistling2: ) ...


Feel free. It's just my opinion. You could fill lots of books with all the stuff I've been wrong about.


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## JohnJ0906

I'm just a little funny about things that can drop on people. Last time I did a job with lay-ins, I sent my help around to lay them in, then I personally secured and wire every light. I'm just comfortable being hands on with these. I geuss it's one of my quirks:laughing: :innocent:


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## Joe Tedesco

*See 410.16(C)*

See 410.16(C) and http://www.ul.com/lighting/ul1598.html 

Look at: *IEVV*


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## Joe Tedesco

*Here's a blast from the past when this Forum was truly a Professional Forum!* 

Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians. 

Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs. 

Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.) 

Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex). 

Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.) 

Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools. 

Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end. 

Installing cable connectors to metal boxes 

Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes. 

Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs. 

Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches. 

Unboxing lighting fixtures. 

Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids. 

Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures. 

Nailing recessed lights to joists.​


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## BryanMD

Joe Tedesco said:


> Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.​




what sort of license?
issued by who?
based on what?
​


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## Joe Tedesco

*What are your qualifications Sir?*



BryanMD said:


> what sort of license?
> issued by who?
> based on what?
> 
> [/left]


1. Journeyman or Master
2. State or Ciry
3. Qualifications

What are your qualifications Sir? Are you licensed?


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## Southeast Power

Joe Tedesco said:


> Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.​
> 
> Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.​
> Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)​
> Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex).​
> Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.)​
> Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.​
> Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end.​
> Installing cable connectors to metal boxes​
> Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes.​
> Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs.​
> Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches.​
> Unboxing lighting fixtures.​
> Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids.​
> Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures.​
> 
> Nailing recessed lights to joists.​


Its all electrical work Joe. What are you getting at with this?


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## Joe Tedesco

jrannis said:


> Its all electrical work Joe. What are you getting at with this?


It seemed clear to the others here and it was only to call attention to those who have no experience in this trade and who have never been trained to do electrical work in the proper way. Our work cannot be done by those who have no clue; I thought that we seemed to agree here and we want no zombies or political hacks or DIY people messing with the wires!

What do you mean? 

_"What are you getting at with this?" :laughing:_

Didn't you read the very first post?

*Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.*


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## Shado

I have the same question as jrannis.....

Are you referring 'unlicensed' as those who are not employed by an EC?
Or cubs?

No electrical work should be done by others not employed by an EC.

If you are talking about cubs......by all means,get their experience going! How the hell else are they going to get licensed?


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## Joe Tedesco

*Master Electrician Job Description*

Go to www.kbrjobs.com


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## Southeast Power

Joe Tedesco said:


> It seemed clear to the others here and it was only to call attention to those who have no experience in this trade and who have never been trained to do electrical work in the proper way. Our work cannot be done by those who have no clue; I thought that we seemed to agree here and we want no zombies or political hacks or DIY people messing with the wires!
> 
> What do you mean?
> 
> _"What are you getting at with this?" :laughing:_
> 
> Didn't you read the very first post?
> 
> *Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.*


Interesting note. We had a job where the owner wanted the GC to purchase the fixtures. The fixutres came on the job and were moved by our electricians two or three times, after hours as not to impact the schedule. There were hundreds of them.
The GC got tired of paying electricians to move the fixtures and had the laborors move the fixtures after we left one night. They stacked them in such a way that almost 80% of the lenses were broken or bent, only the the bottom row that was face down on the slab survived but, it rained that night and they were in 2" of water the next morning.
Those were some expensive fixtures!!:laughing:


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## bobelectric

Joe,
What did you do over iraq to make life better in America?


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## user5941

I consider this all to be the responsibility of the elctrical contractor much of the work can be preformed by a well supervised apprentice.


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## william1978

Joe Tedesco said:


> I talked to a friend yesterday from Indiana who was just hired to come to IRAQ as a Master Electrician and he told me that a 21 year old person was given a Master's License!
> 
> He also mentioned that the State of Kentucky realized that they made a serious mistake and took it back and gave him a journeyman's license instead.


 How old do you have to be to become a master electrician?


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## BryanMD

william1978 said:


> How old do you have to be to become a master electrician?


do the math.
14000hrs / 2000 per year = 7 years; with OT maybe shave that down to 6.
if you do well on tests and left high school early... 22


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## william1978

BryanMD said:


> do the math.
> 14000hrs / 2000 per year = 7 years; with OT maybe shave that down to 6.
> if you do well on tests and left high school early... 22


 I had about 14,000 hrs by the age of 22 and did not leave school early.


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## BryanMD

william1978 said:


> I had about 14,000 hrs by the age of 22 and did not leave school early.



did you get a gold star?


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## william1978

BryanMD said:


> did you get a gold star?


 Huh?:001_huh:


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## Jeffro

They're giving gold stars now?!!!!


BryanMD said:


> did you get a gold star?


:no::thumbup::thumbup:


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## EDM

Joe, what about states where there are no licenses? In some states the only licenses are for contractors. In those situations, it might be counterintuitive for a worker to get his Electrical Contractor's License, some contractors look down on employing a worker with a contractors license who might soon be his competition. Some unions look down on that too (unless you are sign with them, of course). 

So how do you feel about states where there are no licenses for workers (no Master or Journeyman license)? In that situation, what is the difference between an electrician and a day laborer from the Home Depot parking lot?


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## Joe Tedesco

EDM said:


> Joe, what about states where there are no licenses? In some states the only licenses are for contractors. In those situations, it might be counterintuitive for a worker to get his Electrical Contractor's License, some contractors look down on employing a worker with a contractors license who might soon be his competition. Some unions look down on that too (unless you are sign with them, of course).
> 
> So how do you feel about states where there are no licenses for workers (no Master or Journeyman license)? In that situation, what is the difference between an electrician and a day laborer from the Home Depot parking lot?


OK, please identify those States that do not require licensing first. 

I can say that it scares me though thinking about some parking lot wino or whiskey pot head who is called an "electrician." 

The whole purpose of my bumping this thread was because of what I had to deal with in IRAQ. 

The third world so called electricians who had no formal training or experience whatsoever on using the NEC who were acting as, and in some caes running the entire electrician's shop as an Apprentice. 

I asked some a few questions so simple that the first day apprentice here could answer and got a dumb stupid blind eye. 

I believe that there is a list of States somewhere who required licensing. Maybe someone can supply that informatio here. In the meantime it is good to be home!


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## EDM

Joe Tedesco said:


> OK, please identify those States that do not require licensing first.


 New Jersey is a state without any type of Electrician License, only a Contractor License. I know there are more. Pennsylvania doesn't even require a Contractor's License.


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## Joe Tedesco

*NJ Journeyman License.*



EDM said:


> New Jersey is a state without any type of Electrician License, only a Contractor License. I know there are more. Pennsylvania doesn't even require a Contractor's License.


I found this application for a NJ Journeyman's License.

New Jersey Application


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## EDM

Joe Tedesco said:


> I found this application for a NJ Journeyman's License.
> 
> New Jersey Application


That's an application, not a requirement.

Joe, are you going to try to refute that there are states that don't have requirements for journeyman or master licenses?


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## user5941

EDM said:


> That's an application, not a requirement.
> 
> Joe, are you going to try to refute that there are states that don't have requirements for journeyman or master licenses?


 Missouri does not require a state license but most of the large metro areas do St Louis,Kansas City,Columbia,Jefferson City,Springield,Cape Girerdeu.Joplin all use Prometric and many small citys require a license.St Louis County also requires a license.


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## BryanMD

rewire said:


> Missouri does not require a state license...
> but most of the large metro areas do.


really? gee, I wonder why that is?


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## user5941

BryanMD said:


> really? gee, I wonder why that is?


 The state leaves it to the municipalities would be a whole lot easier if it was one license we did get a provision passed last year that a St Louis County license was good anywere in the state you just had to pay the municple license fee I think that will be the first step.


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## sparky970

Several years ago, the state had prisoners installing underground conduit, our union considered this a violation since they did not have a licence. Union or not, this should not happen.


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## EDM

sparky970 said:


> Several years ago, the state had prisoners installing underground conduit, our union considered this a violation since they did not have a licence. Union or not, this should not happen.


We had the Laborer's union (LIUNA) doing that work here!


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## BryanMD

rewire said:


> The state leaves it to the municipalities...


*Leonard*: For God's sake, Sheldon, do I have to hold up a sarcasm sign every time I open my mouth? 
*Sheldon* (_intrigued_): You have a sarcasm sign?

(yeah, I found a quotes page and rewire there are "other reasons" at play)


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## EDM

BryanMD said:


> *Leonard*: For God's sake, Sheldon, do I have to hold up a sarcasm sign every time I open my mouth?
> *Sheldon* (_intrigued_): You have a sarcasm sign?
> 
> (yeah, I found a quotes page and rewire there are "other reasons" at play)


I love TBBT.


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## user5941

BryanMD said:


> *Leonard*: For God's sake, Sheldon, do I have to hold up a sarcasm sign every time I open my mouth?
> *Sheldon* (_intrigued_): You have a sarcasm sign?
> 
> (yeah, I found a quotes page and rewire there are "other reasons" at play)


 :stupid:well some head butting between the IBEW and the IEC over ratio and proceedure


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## robertwilber

*No Pennsylvania License*

There is no State License for electricians in PA.
People in the trade have fought for one for years, both to standardize quality of installations [Aah allus wunned ta ficks a transmisheeown!] and to reduce the impact of endless burdensome municipal fees.
However, many municipal authorities have electrical licensing and or electrical contracting licensing requirements.
For example, it is illegal in the City of Philadelphia, PA to engage in the business of providing electrical services [contracting] without obtaining a permit. An electrical permit will not be issued to anyone for the purpose of blah blah blah unless licensed by the City of Philadelphia as an electrical contractor. For such license to be issued, it is required that the person provide evidence of adequate [defined] training and experience and satisfactorily pass a third-party examination. [$250.00 one-time tax registration fee, $150.00 per year electrical contractor license, annual tax filing-whether you had income from Philadelphia or not and a permit required for adding just one receptacle-at a minimum of $25.00 plus hours of your time ..and don't forget the inspection! oh yeah, don't forget the test is however much too] 
I gave a price of over $500.00 to install a ten-foot wiremold extension for a receptacle! [$30.00 in parts, $35.00 for the permit, $200.00 labor to get the permit, $50.00 for the inspection and $200.00 for the installation labor - so the guy decided to use a three dollar extension cord-surprise, surprise!] 
Other places in PA have varied and equal to non-existent standards [and fees!]. [That Philadelphia license is recognized outside the city so I don't have to take the local test, but I have to buy THEIR license to work in the township-not even County-at the same kind of rates as Philadelphia!]
Never the less, I can hire any moron who fogs a mirror to work on my jobs. The work they perform is my problem and my responsibility.
BTW, Jersey does license electricians.


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## BryanMD

robertwilber said:


> Never the less, I can hire any moron who fogs a mirror to work on my jobs. The work they perform is my problem and my responsibility.



The issue is whether the EC continues to employ that mirror fogging moron on their jobs (or not) vs a presumption that anyone who hasn't submitted themselves to the hoop jumping certifications as the "EC" has done... is unworthy of employment by the EC (or their competition).


btw Robert, good to see you post again.
haven't seen you for a while.


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