# Romex staples



## Salvatoreg02

1 staple for 2 14/2 romex
1 staple for 2 12/2 romex 
Violation or not?

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## MDShunk

Not.

I sent a email to a staple company 10 years ago or better, and this is what they told me:



> Marc:
> This question has been coming up a lot lately, and we have to be careful how we answer it due to the diversity in code interpretation across the country. UL tested our products for one cable, which is pretty much standard. We are aware however that many contractors run two, 12 or 14 cables under a #100 staple with no problem. The LL# 100 and the LL141 can physically hold even 3 and 4 cables securely, however some inspectors will only allow one cable regardless of leg length and holding capacity. That is why we have to be careful in advertising multi-cable capability.
> 
> You are correct that leg length is an important factor in holding capability, but leg design and shape is also important. You will notice that the Viking #100, #125, etc. legs are not round. They are flattened which increases holding ability. A Viking staple will therefore hold better than most round-leg staples.
> 
> The solution will probably be for us to request UL or other lab testing for multiple cables, which is expensive and time consuming. In the mean time, we suggest the inspectors be realistic about a staple’s intended purpose “to adequately secure a cable or cables without damaging them”. A simple pull test would seem to be adequate to address this issue. Pull on it and see if it comes out. If it does, you need a bigger staple. If, not, go with it.
> 
> If the Inspectors are concerned about “over driving” in order to make the staple hold on multiple cables, one of our insulated staples such as the IN 3000 or IN3125 may be the answer. We have seen sales of IN3125 (based on our #125 staple) increase lately, primarily for this reason.
> 
> Finally, Viking is introducing a line of plastic “stacking staples” this fall. These will be designed to hold 1-2 or 3 cables and will be color coded for 10, 12 and 14 cable. They will be more expensive than steel staples but they should address this issue in problem areas.
> 
> Hope this helps, we will be happy to supply samples or additional information at your request
> 
> Tom Trudeau
> President


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## 480sparky

Depends on the staple. 1/2"? 3/4? 3/8?" 9/16?"


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## Shockdoc

They let us double and even triple up 2 wire under single staples out here.


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## MDShunk

...supported and secured.

I don't even see a requirement for a staple. You could use duct tape or bailing twine, if you wanted to, and they'd have to like it. If the staple secures and supports the cables, and the cables are not damaged, the inspector doesn't have a leg to stand on if he tries to prohibit multiples under one staple. Heck, I sometimes staple a scrap of romex sheath to the stud and tie the whole bundle coming down to a switchbox, for instance. 100% compliant.


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## backstay

I use Sturgeon Bay, up to 4 12/2 here's the link: 
http://www.handystraps.com/handystraps.html


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## MDShunk

backstay said:


> I use Sturgeon Bay, up to 4 12/2 here's the link:
> http://www.handystraps.com/handystraps.html


Yeah, and they're UL rated for multiples, which is nice... BUT....

There is no NEC requirement that devices used to support and/or support cables be investigated or marked for that particular use.


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## Salvatoreg02

I really don't use many staple I like the stack its better. But for some reason today he decides to nit pick my work. He asked me if the staples were able to support more then one cable. So, I went to go look at the bucket to see if there was any info and there wasn't. And told me that from now on this particular underwritten company will no longer except 2 wired under one staple unless the manufacture suggest you can. You believe this crock of S. H. I. T

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## CEC

In the Canadian Electrial Code intent of the rules, it states that nmd-90 shall be secured so not damaged during or after wall boarding is installed. You do not need to secure it if fished. Only stipulation is not to staple 2 nmd-90 on side ,needs to lay flat


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## Fiki

backstay said:


> I use Sturgeon Bay, up to 4 12/2 here's the link:
> http://www.handystraps.com/handystraps.html


Those look pricey.


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## Magnettica

It is a violation if both pairs of cables are on the same "framing member". 




> Cables and Raceways Parallel to Framing Members
> and Furring Strips. In both exposed and concealed
> locations, where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is
> installed parallel to framing members, such as joists,
> rafters, or studs, or is installed parallel to furring strips, the
> cable or raceway shall be installed and supported so that the
> nearest outside surface of the cable or raceway is not less
> than 32 mm (11⁄4 in.) from the nearest edge of the framing
> member or furring strips where nails or screws are likely to
> penetrate. Where this distance cannot be maintained, the
> cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by
> nails or screws by a steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent at least
> 1.6 mm (1⁄16 in.) thick.


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## I_get_shocked

Does the manufacturer specify cable capacity?

If listed, 
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.


Nothing in NEC prohibits securing multiple cables with one staple


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## manchestersparky

MDShunk said:


> ...supported and secured.
> 
> I don't even see a requirement for a staple. You could use duct tape or bailing twine, if you wanted to, and they'd have to like it. If the staple secures and supports the cables, and the cables are not damaged, the inspector doesn't have a leg to stand on if he tries to prohibit multiples under one staple. Heck, I sometimes staple a scrap of romex sheath to the stud and tie the whole bundle coming down to a switchbox, for instance. 100% compliant.


 
Article 334.30 
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples,cable ties,straps, hangers or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable.

Duct Tapeand bailing twine are not a similar fitting. :no::whistling2:


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## den

I got called on this last year. The inspectors reason was holding the wires tight together will meen that they will have to be derated if they were together for a whole stud length. He was ok with half way down to a switch. ??? OK boss-whatever it takes to sign off!!!


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## MDShunk

manchestersparky said:


> Article 334.30
> Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples,cable ties,straps, hangers or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable.
> 
> Duct Tapeand bailing twine are not a similar fitting. :no::whistling2:


You don't think that duct tape was designed to damage cables, do you? If you agree that duct tape was not designed to damage cables, then you have to allow its use for securing cable.


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## Rockyd

Normally 2 "flat" romex cables per staple is okay as long as they are laying flat, and not on end, no problem. I try not to pound the staple down to where the wire is tight...my create a problem for an AFCI..

One midway down the stud, one eight inches from the box, never look back:thumbup:


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## Fiki

Rockyd said:


> Normally 2 "flat" romex cables per staple is okay as long as they are laying flat, and not on end, no problem. I try not to pound the staple down to where the wire is tight...my create a problem for an AFCI..
> 
> One midway down the stud, one eight inches from the box, never look back:thumbup:


Looks better flat anyway. I try to keep it snug but honestly as a newbie was not aware of a potential nuisance trip from the AFCI. Is that something that takes time to develop or is it something that will be an issue immediately?


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## MDShunk

Fiki said:


> Looks better flat anyway. I try to keep it snug but honestly as a newbie was not aware of a potential nuisance trip from the AFCI. Is that something that takes time to develop or is it something that will be an issue immediately?


You never know. I have done service calls where AFCI tripping due to tight staples took nearly 2 years to manifest. I don't mind telling you (because I'm proud of it) that the original installing contractor visited the home 4 times, one of those calls for an entire day, to solve this, and I found the real problem in about 3 hours.


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## macmikeman

MDShunk said:


> You never know. I have done service calls where AFCI tripping due to tight staples took nearly 2 years to manifest. I don't mind telling you (because I'm proud of it) that the original installing contractor visited the home 4 times, one of those calls for an entire day, to solve this, and I found the real problem in about 3 hours.


On the other hand, I spent two days trying to find why about 5 arc fault breakers at one house kept randomly tripping. I crawled attic with insulation all day checking all the staples, and even drilled a couple of holes thru some partition top plates to send down the see snake into the walls, undid all those circuits, and megger tested them like crazy. All to no avail the 5 arc breakers would trip when something like my hole hawg was running for a minute or so.. On day two I replaced the 5 with another 5 I got from a different supplier. All of a sudden the problem went away. F..k was I ever pissed at myself, and at the company that made them. I stunk up the internet for a year ranting about that company. All good now........:whistling2:

Moral to this story, - dont buy your arc fault breakers by the case, the whole case may be a bad batch. Spread the wealth out a bit......


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## MDShunk

macmikeman said:


> Moral to this story, - dont buy your arc fault breakers by the case, the whole case may be a bad batch. Spread the wealth out a bit......


Knock on wood, I don't think I've ever gotten a bum AFCI. I think I've heard you tell that story before. I have a single pole 15 and a single pole 20 on the truck in most brands, and that's about all the extra stock I keep of AFCI's. I mostly buy them per job (just what I need), and keep one extra of each on the truck to upsell during service calls or to use for a new circuit service call. Good through a goodly many in the summer for dedicated circuit window air conditioner receptacles.


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## 76nemo

MDShunk said:


> ...supported and secured.
> 
> I don't even see a requirement for a staple. You could use duct tape or bailing twine, if you wanted to, and they'd have to like it. If the staple secures and supports the cables, and the cables are not damaged, the inspector doesn't have a leg to stand on if he tries to prohibit multiples under one staple. Heck, I sometimes staple a scrap of romex sheath to the stud and tie the whole bundle coming down to a switchbox, for instance. 100% compliant.


 
I don't deal with resi construction, all but a handful of times, but I ask you all from different parts of the country this..........

Stackers this, Stackers that......... of the few houses I wired I would do a single run under a staple and zip tie the remaining stack to it. Supported and secured, never had an issue with it. The issue I have is I have never really heard of many others doing this. How come? Do your inspectors have an issue with that method?


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## BBQ

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, and they're UL rated for multiples, which is nice... BUT....
> 
> There is no NEC requirement that devices used to support and/or support cables be investigated or marked for that particular use.


I agree there is no requirement for listed staples.

However if you choose to use listed staples there is a requirement to use them as per the labeling. (110.3(B).


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## McClary’s Electrical

76nemo said:


> I don't deal with resi construction, all but a handful of times, but I ask you all from different parts of the country this..........
> 
> Stackers this, Stackers that......... of the few houses I wired I would do a single run under a staple and zip tie the remaining stack to it. Supported and secured, never had an issue with it. The issue I have is I have never really heard of many others doing this. How come? Do your inspectors have an issue with that method?


Some inspectors call that bundling, along with Md's method. Stacker's" maintain air space, something a ziptie or romex scrap does n ot


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## BBQ

mcclary's electrical said:


> Some inspectors call that bundling, along with Md's method. Stacker's" maintain air space, something a ziptie or romex scrap does n ot


I think that is the best explanation out there.


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## 76nemo

mcclary's electrical said:


> Some inspectors call that bundling, along with Md's method. Stacker's" maintain air space, something a ziptie or romex scrap does n ot


 
Yeah, and another long winded arguement..................:whistling2:


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## BBQ

76nemo said:


> Yeah, and another long winded arguement..................:whistling2:


WTF does that mean? :blink:

Calling it bundling is without a doubt within the authority of the AHJ using the words contained in the NEC.


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## 76nemo

BBQ said:


> WTF does that mean? :blink:
> 
> Calling it bundling is without a doubt within the authority of the AHJ using the words contained in the NEC.


 
Easy Bob, easy. It's only 6:45. My issue with that stems to the stink of bundling a few runs into a box or just bundling in free air. I don't stand behind alot of it, doesn't mean I have any say.

Easy now....


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## crosport

We can use S1 staples for one 14/2 or one 12/2 but we have to use an S2 for one 14/3,12/3 or two 14/2 or 2 12/2.Are there S1 and S2 staples in the U.S.?


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## Jlarson

I have never had a problem putting more than one under a staple, some have argued but they lost. 


As for the bundling thing, if I have more than 3 cables I need to take care of I usually secure a piece of scrap wire across the bay and tie each wire onto that.


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## BIGRED

I have always used BX staples for romex, been doing it for years.


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## user4818

Around here in New England we use the Briscon SN-40 insulated and I always double stack with them. They easily hold 2 cables without a problem, and 3 if you are really lacking for space on a stud or joist.


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## blueheels2

I know that inspectors love to cite bundling as the reason we can't tie them all together but in my understanding wouldn't you need at least 4 12-2's bundled before derating was a real factor. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you derated them like you would wires in a conduit. Cant' think of what the reference is on that chart.


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## captkirk

I pretty much just stock the longer staples... Good for two cables under one or can handle MC if needed.


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## frenchelectrican

Mosts case I don't useally run into issue with staples like that but once a while I get snagged with inspector if I put the staples little too close like 20 or less inches they claim it may affect rating { sorta like derating } of the cables.

I did ask the inspector to back up the statement but can't really find it but have to follow the manufacter instruction on it.

For the spacing one inspector told me not to get the staple any closer than 24 inches otherwise you will have to derated the cable { C'est connires ?? }

I don't know about you guys with the staples closer than 24 inches with two cables I can understand that with three or more cables.

Merci,
Marc


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## nrp3

I would think derating two NMs at 90c wouldn't amount to anything anyway.


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## raider1

nrp3 said:


> I would think derating two NMs at 90c wouldn't amount to anything anyway.


Correct, usually it takes more than 9 CCC's bundled with NM cable before the ampacity adjustments of 310.15(B)(2)(a) (2008) or 310.15(B)(3)(a) (2011) would drop the ampacity of the conductors below what 240.4(D) permits for #14 or #12 NM cable.

Chris


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## blueheels2

raider1 said:


> Correct, usually it takes more than 9 CCC's bundled with NM cable before the ampacity adjustments of 310.15(B)(2)(a) (2008) or 310.15(B)(3)(a) (2011) would drop the ampacity of the conductors below what 240.4(D) permits for #14 or #12 NM cable.
> 
> Chris


That's what i was trying to say above. Most situations derating will not be an issue.


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