# Do i REALLY need to know voltage drop for test?



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Ah, who cares really? 
VD, conduit fill, box fill, you could just keep going... is it really needed? So what if it burns equipment up, causes fires, etc.. :whistling2:


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Im only concerned about the test right now, we all know the majority of the stuff on the test really doesnt even translate to real world.

All the stuff they make you do calcs wise is already figured out in the plans. Thats what engineers do.

I really just want to know if theres going to be more than one or two questions about it.

thanks


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If it's possible there will be a question on it, I'd say it would be in your best interest to brush up on it.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Sorry, at the moment I was feeling very sarcastic, not good.

Yes 480's right there could be one or two questions on it.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

vanskills said:


> All the stuff they make you do calcs wise is already figured out in the plans. Thats what engineers do.


Nuh uh!

I just did a motor branch circuit OCPD and overload sizing calculation today! And I'm not an engineer!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Im only concerned about the test right now, we all know the majority of the stuff on the test really doesnt even translate to real world.
> 
> All the stuff they make you do calcs wise is already figured out in the plans. Thats what engineers do.
> 
> ...



EXCUSE ME? Do you do electric work or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn last night and I am serious.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

vanskills said:


> Im only concerned about the test right now, we all know the majority of the stuff on the test really doesnt even translate to real world.
> 
> All the stuff they make you do calcs wise is already figured out in the plans. Thats what engineers do.


WTF are you smoking? Seriously? 

I do way, way, way more than just load and VD calcs every day. I even do radio path loss and related calculations for SCADA and telemetry work.


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## shiznit60 (Nov 18, 2010)

id definatly learn you voltage drop equations cause if you got journeymns paper work and they put you in the position were you gotta know it yea sure it maybe a few more dollars on the pay and you prob wont get fired but itl make you look like a crappy electrician. but wat do i know iv worked with journeymen that couldnt bend pipe


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

brian john said:


> EXCUSE ME? Do you do electric work or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn last night and I am serious.


I dont even know what that means dude.

Im assuming your being sarcastic or something.


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Man nevermind, this forum is full of assholes.

God dam man.


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm not even in the electrical trade and know the responses you got were hardly anything even close to mean. If you can't stand the picking on you got in this thread you're in for a hell of a lot of trouble when you get into the field.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

wow, did he REALLY ask this question? *smacks forehead*


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Edrick said:


> I'm not even in the electrical trade and know the responses you got were hardly anything even close to mean. If you can't stand the picking on you got in this thread you're in for a hell of a lot of trouble when you get into the field.


Are you ****ing kidding me man?

Im a 248 pound man...do you SERIOUSLY think i EVER get picked on ?..EVER?

Whatever, you ****ing nerds can post whatever bull**** you want.

This forum is worthless..

late..and **** OFF!!...:thumbsup:


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

vanskills said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me man?
> 
> Im a 248 pound man...do you SERIOUSLY think i EVER get picked on ?..EVER?
> 
> ...


Nerds? They actually know how to do their job and don't have to ask a ******** question like that. 

Who the hell cares how much you weigh you think you're going to throw brute force around and think you're the macho man on the jobsite? Them electricians can sure be nasty (all in good fun unless you're just useless on the job). Your weight doesn't matter hell they'll probably make fun of you and make you run up and down ladders or rig something to break on you.

Careful one day you might show up to the jobsite to find someone dropped a load in your work box.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

vanskills said:


> Hello
> 
> I think im pretty much ready for the journeymen test in Colorado..
> 
> ...


You should spend some time on it ,there might one question there may be more than one or there may none at all:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

he purpose of the National Electrical Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising by the use of electricity. The NEC does not generally consider voltage drop to be a safety issue. As a result, the NEC contains six recommendations (Fine Print Notes) that circuit conductors be sized sufficiently large enough so that reasonable efficiency of equipment operation can be provided. In addition, the NEC has five rules that required conductors be sized to accommodate the voltage drop of the circuit conductors.
Fine Print Notes in the NEC are for informational purposes only and are not enforceable by the inspection authority [90-5(c)]. However, Section 110-3(b) requires equipment to be installed in accordance with the equipment instructions. Therefore, electrical equipment must be installed so that it operates within its voltage rating as specified by the manufacturer. Figure 1.
Author’s Comment: Figures are not posted on the internet.
Due to voltage drop within the circuit conductors, the operating voltage at electrical equipment will be less than the output voltage of the power supply. Inductive loads (i.e. motors, ballasts, etc.) that operate at voltage below its rating can overheat resulting in shorter equipment operating life and increased cost, as well as inconvenience for the customer. Under-voltage for sensitive electronic equipment such as computers, laser printers, copy machines, etc., can cause the equipment to lock up or suddenly power down resulting in data loss, increased cost and possible equipment failure. Resistive loads (heaters, incandescent lighting) that operate at under-voltages simply will not provide the expected rated power output, Figure 1.
Author’s Comment: Voltage drop on the conductors can cause incandescent lighting to flicker when other appliances, office equipment, or heating and cooling systems cycle on. Though this might be annoying for some, it’s not dangerous and it does not violate the NEC.
NEC RECOMMENDATIONS
The National Electrical Code contains six Fine Print Notes to alert the Code user that equipment can have improved efficiency of operation if conductor voltage drop is taken into consideration.
1. Branch Circuits – This FPN recommends that branch circuit conductors be sized to prevent a maximum voltage drop of 3%. The maximum total voltage drop for a combination of both branch circuit and feeder should not exceed 5%. [210-19(a) FPN No. 4], Figure 2.
2. Feeders – This FPN recommends that feeder conductors be sized to prevent a maximum voltage drop of 3%. The maximum total voltage drop for a combination of both branch circuit and feeder should not exceed 5%. [215-2(d) FPN No. 2], Figure 2.
Example: What is the minimum NEC recommended operating voltage for a 120 volt load that is connected to a 120/240-volt source, Figure 3 (8-11).
(a) 120 volts (b) 115 volt (c) 114 volts (d) 116 volts 
Answer: (c) 114 volts The maximum conductor voltage drop recommended for both the feeder and branch circuit is 5 percent of the voltage source; 120 volts x 5% = 6 volts. The operating voltage at the load is determined by subtracting the conductor’s voltage drop from the voltage source, 120 volts – 6 volts drop = 114 volts.
3. Services – Interestingly there is no recommended voltage drop for service conductors, but this FPN reminds the Code user to consider voltage drop of the service conductors [230-31(c) FPN].
Author’s Comment: Voltage drop on long service conductors can cause incandescent lighting in the building to flicker when appliances, heating or cooling systems cycle on. For information on how to solve or reduce incandescent lighting flicker, go to: www.mikeholt.com/Newsletters.
4. Conductor Ampacity – This FPN identifies the fact that the ampacities listed in Table 310-16 do not take voltage drop into consideration [310-15 FPN No. 1]. 
5. Phase Converters – Phase converters have their own recommendation that the voltage drop from the power supply to the phase converter should not exceed 3% [455-6(a) FPN]. 
6. Recreational Vehicle Parks – Recreational Vehicles have a recommendation that the maximum voltage drop for branch circuit conductors not exceed 3% and the combination of both the branch and feeder not to exceed 5% [210-19(a) FPN No. 4 and 551-73(d) FPN].
NEC REQUIREMENTS
The National Electrical Code also contains five rules requiring circuit conductors to be increased in size to accommodate voltage drop.
Grounding Conductors – This rule states that where circuit conductors are increased in size to compensate for voltage drop, the equipment grounding conductors must also be increased in size [250-122(b)].
Author’s Comment: If, however, the circuit conductors are not increased in size to accommodate voltage drop, then the equipment grounding conductor is not required to be larger than listed in Table 250-122.
Motion Picture/Television Studios – Branch circuit conductor for 60/120 volt systems used to reduce noise in audio/video production or other similar sensitive electronics for motion and television studios must not exceed 1.5%, and the combined voltage drop of the feeder and branch circuit conductors must not exceed 2.5% [530-71(d)]. In addition, FPN No. 1 to Section 530-72(b) reminds the Code user to increase the size of the grounding conductor in accordance with Section 250-122(b).
Fire Pumps – The operating voltage at the terminals of a fire pump controller must not be less than 15% from the voltage rating of the controller while the motor is starting (lock-rotor current). In addition, the operating voltage at the terminals of the fire pump motor must not be less than 5% from the voltage rating of the motor when the motor is operating at 115 percent of it full-load current rating [695-7].
Author’s Comment: Next month in this article, I’ll give examples and graphics demonstrating the application of the NEC voltage drop rules.
DETERMINING CIRCUIT VOLTAGE DROP
When the circuit conductors have already been installed, the voltage drop of the conductors can be determined by one of two methods: Ohm’s law or the VD formula.
Ohm’s Law Method – Single-Phase Only
Voltage drop of the circuit conductors can be determined by multiplying the current of the circuit by the total resistance of the circuit conductors: VD = I x R. “I” is equal to the load in amperes and ”R” is equal to the resistance of the conductor as listed in Chapter 9, Table 8 for direct current circuit, or in Chapter 9, Table 9 for alternating current circuits. The Ohm’s law method cannot be used for three-phase circuits.
120 volt Example: What is the voltage drop of two No. 12 conductors that supply a 16 ampere, 120 volt load which is located 100 feet from the power supply (200 feet of wire), Figure 4.
(a) 3.2 volts (b) 6.4 volts (c) 9.6 volts (d) 12.8 volts
Answer: (b) 6.4 volts 
Voltage Drop = I x R
“I” is equal to 16 amperes
“R” is equal to 0.4 ohms (Chapter 9, Table 9: (2 ohm/1,000 feet) x 200 feet
Voltage Drop = 16 amperes x 0.4 ohms
Voltage Drop = 6.4 volts, (6.4 volts/120 volts = 5.3% volts drop)
Operating Voltage = 120 volts – 6.4 volts
Operating Voltage = 113.6 volts
Author’s Comment: The 5.3% voltage drop for the above branch circuit exceeds the NEC’s recommendations of 3%, but it does not violate the NEC unless the 16 ampere load is rated less than 113.6 volts [110-3(b)].
240 volt Single-Phase Example: What is the operating voltage of a 44 ampere, 240 volt, single-phase load located 160 feet from the panelboard, if it is wired with No. 6 conductors, Figure 5?
(a) 233.1 volts (b) 230.8 volts (c) 228.4 volts (d) 233.4 volts
Answer: (a) 233.1 volts
Voltage Drop = I x R
“I” is equal to 44 amperes
“R” is equal to 0.157 ohms (Chapter 9, Table 9: (.49 ohm/1,000 feet) x 320 feet
Voltage Drop = 44 amperes x 0.157 ohms
Voltage Drop = 6.9 volts, (6.9 volts/240 volts = 2.9% volts drop)
Operating Voltage = 240 volts – 6.9 volts
Operating Voltage = 233.1 volts
Voltage Drop Using the Formula Method
When the circuit conductors have already been installed, the voltage drop of the conductors can be determined by using one of the following formulas:
VD = 2 x K x Q x I x D/CM - Single Phase
VD = 1.732 x K x Q x I x D/CM - Three Phase
“VD” = Volts Dropped: The voltage drop of the circuit conductors as expressed in volts. 
“K” = Direct Current Constant: This is a constant that represents the direct current resistance for a one thousand circular mils conductor that is one thousand feet long, at an operating temperature of 75º C. The direct current constant value to be used for copper is 12.9 ohms and 21.2 ohms is used for aluminum conductors. The “K” constant is suitable for alternating current circuits, where the conductors do not exceed No. 1/0.
“Q” = Alternating Current Adjustment Factor: Alternating current circuits No. 2/0 and larger must be adjusted for the effects of self-induction (skin effect). The "Q" adjustment factor is determined by dividing alternating current resistance as listed in NEC Chapter 9, Table 9, by the direct current resistance as listed in Chapter 9, Table 8.
“I” = Amperes: The load in amperes at 100 percent, not 125 percent for motors or continuous loads.
“D” = Distance: The distance the load is located from the power supply, not the total length of the circuit conductors.
“CM” = Circular-Mils: The circular mils of the circuit conductor as listed in Chapter 9, Table 8. 
Single-Phase Example: What is the voltage drop for a No. 6 conductor that supplies a 44 ampere, 240 volt, single-phase load located 160 feet from the panelboard, Figure 6?
(a) 4.25 volts (b) 6.9 volts (c) 3 percent (d) 5 percent 
Answer: (b) 6.9 volts
VD = 2 x K x I x D/CM
K = 12.9 ohms, Copper 
I = 24 amperes 
D = 160 feet 
CM = No. 6, 26,240 circular mils, Chapter 9, Table 8
VD = 2 wires x 12.9 ohms x 44 amperes x 160 feet/26,240 Circular Mils
VD = 6.9 volts, (6.9 volts/240 volts = 2.9% volts drop)
Operating Voltage = 240 volts – 6.9 volts
Operating Voltage = 233.1 volts
Three-Phase Example: A three-phase 208 volt, 36 kVA load is located 80 feet from the panelboard and it is wired with No. 1 aluminum conductors. What is the voltage drop of the conductors to the equipment disconnect, Figure 7?
(a) 3.5 volts (b) 7 volts (c) 3 percent (d) 5 percent 
Answer: (a) 3.5 volts
VD = 1.732 x K x I x D/CM
K = 21.2 ohms, Aluminum 
I = 100 amperes 
D = 80 feet 
CM = No. 1, 83,690 circular mils, Chapter 9, Table 8 
VD = 1.732 x 21.2 ohms x 100 amperes x 80 feet/83,690 Circular Mils
VD = 3.5 volts (3.5 volts/208 volts = 1.7%)
Operating Voltage = 208 volts – 3.5 volts
Operating Voltage = 204.5 volts


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

equipment is designed to operate at within a given voltage range, typically no less than 10% and no more than 5% from it’s voltage rating. 
Example: A typical 230 volt load is designed to operate at not less than 207 volts (-10%) and not more than 242 volts (+5%), Figure 1.
Author’s Comment: Figures are not posted on the internet.
The actual operating voltage dependents on the output voltage from the electric utility and the voltage drop of the circuit conductors. Keep in mind that the voltage from the electric utility is not constant; its lower during peak utility loading and higher during off-peak load periods.
Generally, overvoltage in an electrical system is not a problem, unless there is a wiring error in the electrical system1, however reduced or under voltage can caused inconvenience by flickering lights2, erratic performance of electro-mechanical devices such as relays and contactors, fires, and equipment failures. In particular, sensitive electronic equipment operating at reduced voltage will not have sufficient “ride-through” capability for voltage sags, and fire pump equipment possibly could fail at inadequate voltage.
1See http://www.mikeholt.com/Newsletters/campus.htm for case studies on overvoltage.
2 See http://www.mikeholt.com/Newsletters/10-7-99.htm for case studies on flickering lights.
Electric utilities are required by public service commissions to supply electrical power with sufficient voltage and capacity for the loads to be served and for most installations, this is not a problem. Reduced or under voltage is often caused by excessive long service, feeder, and or branch circuit conductors. The sizing of these conductors is important to insure proper operating voltage for a safe and efficient electrical systems.
The actual equipment operating voltage is dependent on the originating voltage, the conductor size (actually its resistance), and the magnitude of the current flowing through the circuit conductors. The originating voltage at times can be increased by adjusting the taps on the transformer and the circuit voltage drop can be reduced by decreasing the load or increasing the conductor circular mil area.
Last month I explained that the Fine Print Notes (FPN) in the NEC about voltage drop is not enforceable as a Code rule. However, The National Electrical Code does require conductors to be sized to accommodate voltage drop for the following purposes:
· Grounding Conductors – Section 250-122(b)
· Motion Picture/Television Studios – Section 530-71(d) 
· Fire Pumps – Section 695-7

The following formulas can be used to properly size conductors to prevent excessive voltage drop:
CM (single-phase) = (2 x K x I x D)/VD
CM (three-phase) = (1.732 x K x I x D)/VD
Author's Comment: Download a free Windows 95 Voltage Drop Calculator from www.mikeholt.com.
“CM” = Circular-Mils: The circular mils of the circuit conductor as listed in Chapter 9, Table 8. 
“K” = Direct Current Constant: The direct current constant value to be used for copper is 12.9 ohms and 21.2 ohms is used for aluminum conductors. 
“Q” = Alternating Current Adjustment: Alternating current circuits No. 2/0 and larger must be adjusted for the effects of self-induction (skin effect). The "Q" adjustment factor is determined by dividing alternating current resistance as listed in NEC Chapter 9, Table 9, by the direct current resistance as listed in Chapter 9, Table 8.
“I” = Amperes: The load in amperes at 100 percent, not 125 percent for motors or continuous loads.
“D” = Distance: The distance the load is located from the power supply, not the total length of the circuit conductors.
“VD” = Volts Dropped: The voltage drop of the circuit conductors as expressed in volts. 
Example – Single-Phase
A 5 horsepower motor is located 100 feet from a 120/240 volt panelboard. What size conductor should be used if the motor nameplate indicates the voltage range is between 208-230 volts. Limit the voltage drop to 7.2 volts (3% of the voltage source) and the terminals are rated 75ºC, Figure 2.
(a) No. 10 THHN (b) No. 8 THHN (c) No. 6 THHN (d) No. 4 THHN
• Answer: (a) No. 10 THHN
Section 430-22(a) requires motor conductors to be sized not less than 125 percent of the motor full-load current (28 amperes) as listed in Table 430-148. A No. 10 is rated 35 amperes at 75ºC [Table 310-16 and Section 110-14(c)] and it is suitable to meet the NEC requirements (28 ampere x 1.25 = 35 ampere). In addition, a No. 10 conductor limits the voltage drop to meet the manufacture’s voltage limitation rating [110-3(b)].
Conductor required to limit voltage drop to 3%
CM = (2 x K x I x D)/VD
CM = Wire size, Chapter 9, Table 8
K = 12.9 ohm, copper 
I = 28 ampere
D = 100 feet 
VD = 240 volts x 3% = 7.2 volts
CM = (2 x 12.9 ohms x 28 amperes x 100 feet)/7.2 volts
CM = 10,033, No. 10, Chapter 9, Table 8
Example – Three-Phase
Example: A 25 horsepower, 208 volt three-phase fire pump motor is located 175 feet the service. The fire pump motor controller is located 150 feet from the service (motor 25 feet from controller). What size conductor must be installed to the fire pump motor? Note: Terminals are rated 75ºC, Figure 3.
(a) No. 4 THHN (b) No. 3 THHN (c) No. 2 THHN (d) No. 1 THHN
• Answer: (b) No. 3 THHN
When sizing conductor’s for fire pump motors the following rules must be considered.
Calculation 1.
Section 695-6(c)(2) – No. 3. Branch circuit conductors must be sized no less than 125 percent of the fire pump motor full-load current as listed in Table 430-148 or 430-150, based on 75°C terminal rating [110-14(c)(1)] as listed in Table 310-16. 
74.8 ampere x 1.25 = 93.4 ampere, No. 3 THHN at 75°C is rated 100 ampere 
Calculation 2.
Section 695-7 – No. 3. The operating voltage at the motor controller terminals shall not drop more than 15 percent below the controller-rated voltage when the motor starts (lock-rotor current). 
CM = (1.732 x K x I x D)/VD
CM = Wire size, Chapter 9, Table 8
K = 12.9 ohms, copper
I = 404 ampere (locked-rotor, Table 430-151B)
D = 150 feet 
VD = 31.2 volts (208 volts x 15%)
CM = (1.732 x 12.9 ohms x 404 ampere x 150 feet)/31.2 volts
CM = 43,396, Chapter 9, Table 8 = No. 3
Calculation 3.
Section 695-7 – No. 4. The operating voltage at the terminals of the motor shall not drop more than 5 percent below the voltage rating of the motor while the motor is operating at 115 percent of the full-load current rating of the motor.
CM = (1.732 x K x I x D)/VD 
CM = Wire size, Chapter 9, Table 8
K = 12.9 ohms, copper
I = 86 ampere (74.8 amperes @115%), Table 430-150
D = 175 feet
VD 5% = 10.4 volts (208 volts x 5%)
CM = (1.732 x 12.9 ohms x 86 ampere x 175 feet)/10.4 volts
CM = 32,332, Chapter 9, Table 8 = No. 4
Caution: For voltage drop, the No. 4 wire is okay from the controller to the motor, but Section 695-6(c)(2) requires the branch circuit conductors to be sized no less than No. 3.

I hope this short summary was helpfull. If you want to know more about this subject, please attend our seminar or order our home study video program today.

Voltage Drop Homestudy Program (4 Hour CEU Credit) 
Voltage drop calculations for branch circuits and feeders are explained in great detail. Subjects covered include: wire sizing, maximum distance, voltage drop, and the effects of, Harmonic currents, multi-wire branch circuits, copper versus aluminum, AC versus DC, metallic versus nonmetallic raceways, skin effect and eddy currents. Includes Articles 210, 215, 230, 250 and 310. Textbook with 2-hour video - $79 [CLV3], Book only $25 [CLW3].


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> I hope this short summary...


Ah, short summary? :blink: 

I think someone has a much different definition of short than the rest of us.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Ah, short summary? :blink:
> 
> I think someone has a much different definition of short than the rest of us.


you like how i typed out all that stuff so fast:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> you like how i typed out all that stuff so fast


So now typing = copy and pasting MH stuff? :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> So now typing = copy and pasting MH stuff? :laughing:


Google + copy + paste:laughing::laughing:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

Whats so hard about V=I*R


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks Harry.

I appreciate the time you took to post that.

Rest of the posts are typical stuff on the internet nowdays, (worthless)


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## Hamer (Oct 5, 2010)

Game. Set. Match. :thumbup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Thanks Harry.
> 
> I appreciate the time you took to post that.
> 
> Rest of the posts are typical stuff on the internet nowdays, (worthless)


He was f**king with you. He was not trying to help you. With your attitude it may be hard to find someone to help you. I can tell you this. 
When I took my test, I had VD.:laughing: Calc's, xfmrs, ohms law, open book and closed book.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

After seeing your know-it -all attitude and the follow up posts, I am wondering if you, or anyone for that matter could pass this test. It's an 8th grade test from Salina Kansas. Or was supposed to be anyway. 


































Could I? NO


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

JohnR said:


> After seeing your know-it -all attitude and the follow up posts, I am wondering if you, or anyone for that matter could pass this test. It's an 8th grade test from Salina Kansas. Or was supposed to be anyway.
> Could I? NO


Daaaaaammmmmnnn!

Ah couldn't even pronouncemanate some o them thar words in that example! And I've even been to Salina! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

I EASILY passed the Colorado Journeymen Test.

There was only one question about voltage drop and it was an easy one, asked the percentage of MAXIMUM voltage drop allowed on a branch circuit.

The calc questions were the easiest part of the test, pretty straight forward.

Alot of the look ups were annoying, way out in left field questions that rarely ever apply to the trade but merely involved looking them up in the index.

All in all, pretty easy test, but i studied alot.


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

Congrats but one thing to keep in mind about the questions, you might not do the type of work that the questions were asking but somebody does, that is why they are asked. Every test I've taken had a lot of questions on hospitals and classified locations. I have never done that type of work but still have to know the info. Just like I do a lot of motor work, so the calcs are second nature to me, where as a resi guy might have trouble.

Point being just because you think the question was left field doesn't mean there wasn't a reason for it. Tests are written to cover the entire NEC.


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

I see your point.

But...

I cant tell you how many times i have ran into "journeymen" electricians who couldnt bend pipe.

Apparently its more important to learn how to calculate stove feeders..:thumbup:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Some journeymen don't work in area's where they are required to bend pipe. I worked most of my apprenticeship on fibreglass yachts, and we don't use pipe there. Does that make me any less of a journeyman? I think not. But I probably know a thing or two that you dont, and have probably never seen before. Don't knock someone just because they don't bend a pipe. That's not all the trade is.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

To me ,that would be a question like box fill. You don't use it but you have to be aware of it's limits.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Hamer said:


> Game. Set. Match. :thumbup:


NowThats a Clever Cleaver comment!


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> Some journeymen don't work in area's where they are required to bend pipe. I worked most of my apprenticeship on fibreglass yachts, and we don't use pipe there. Does that make me any less of a journeyman? I think not. But I probably know a thing or two that you dont, and have probably never seen before. Don't knock someone just because they don't bend a pipe. That's not all the trade is.


I would say someone who doesnt know how to bend pipe is absolutley without a doubt less of a electrician than someone that does.

I have done alot of industrial and heavy commercial work my entire electrical career and it cracks me up when some 20 year residential electrician comes in and knows virtually nothing!

Any monkey can rope a house.


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## Mike in Canada (Jun 27, 2010)

vanskills said:


> I would say someone who doesnt know how to bend pipe is absolutley without a doubt less of a electrician than someone that does.


 Uh huh. So by extension someone who doesn't really know how to do voltage drop calculations properly is less of an electrician than someone that does. 



> Any monkey can rope a house.


 It's not about roping a house. It's about doing it *efficiently* and making money at it, and that is something that a monkey can't do. I particularly enjoyed your mention of your "entire electrical career" which no doubt would humble us all, what with you having just taken the test.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

vanskills said:


> I would say someone who doesnt know how to bend pipe is absolutley without a doubt less of a electrician than someone that does.
> 
> I have done alot of industrial and heavy commercial work my entire electrical career and it cracks me up when some 20 year residential electrician comes in and knows virtually nothing!
> 
> Any monkey can rope a house.


 That's short sighted. I've seen some damn screwed up residential work done by industrial electricians. Bending pipe is not the be-all-and-end-all in this trade.

There's plenty of room to be a fantastic residential J-man without knowing how to bend pipe. There's also tons of room to be a grade-A industrial electrician who wouldn't have the first clue how to wire a house properly.

And for the record: I'm an industrial electrician and almost everything I install is in pipe.

-John


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Suffice it to say that there _is not a single electrician on the face of the planet that knows everything_.

Everyone, and I mean every electrician out there, is missing some portion of the trade. This includes me, you, and everyone else. This is an inescapable FACT.

There's a lot of good ones, that's for damn sure. But just because someone can't put a 3-bend saddle in a stick of 3/4" EMT doesn't mean they're worthless. They may be able to t-shoot & fix a plc quicker than a house-roper can box out a galley kitchen.

Conversely, there's comm/ind guys out there that can make a pipe rack look like it belongs in the Louvre, but have no comprehension of AFCIs.


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Come on man..lets be honest here.

A residential electrician and a industrial electrician are worlds apart.

When i first started 5 years ago i started in residential. It took me a whole 2 weeks to get down "roping". I was roping condos just as fast as the guys who were doing it for years.

Why?...because its EASY!

Industrial on the other hand, its WAY more complex and involved, its not even close, not by a mile.

When some ressy gets hired we all roll our eye because we know this guy doesnt know jack.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Come on man..lets be honest here.


OK..... let's!



vanskills said:


> A residential electrician and a industrial electrician are worlds apart.


Yes they are. But there are folks who can do BOTH equally well. I prefer to call them electricians.



vanskills said:


> When i first started 5 years ago i started in residential. It took me a whole 2 weeks to get down "roping". I was roping condos just as fast as the guys who were doing it for years.


Good for you!



vanskills said:


> Why?...because its EASY!


It was easy FOR YOU!



vanskills said:


> Industrial on the other hand, its WAY more complex and involved, its not even close, not by a mile.


But train someone in a commercial/industrial setting w/o ever exposing him/her to roping, and THEY WILL BE LOST doing it.



vanskills said:


> When some ressy gets hired we all roll our eye because we know this guy doesnt know jack.


We all start somewhere.... NO ONE...INCLUDING *YOU*... is born knowing anything about electricity. It's something WE ALL LEARN. And some people pick up on it easier than others.

Just because someone doesn't pick it up as quick as you doesn't make them stupid or 'they don't know jack'.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK..... let's!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jack Who? What local is he in?:laughing::laughing:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

vanskills said:


> Any monkey can rope a house.


But they can't bend pipe?


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

The arrogance of the OP really shows just how ignorant he is. I mean when I passed my test, I felt a little arrogant too, but were all learning, always. The ones who don't learn, the ones who don't want to learn, are worthless. 

Vanskills, you have 5 years in the trade? You don't know jack. I'm on my seventh year, and the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know sh*t. I don't think anyone will know all there is to know in this trade.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> ..... I'm on my seventh year, and the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know sh*t. I don't think anyone will know all there is to know in this trade.



I'm 18 years in, and I'm still learning.:thumbsup:


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'm 18 years in, and I'm still learning.:thumbsup:


I thought you had been doing this longer than that, Ken.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm 18 years in, and I'm still learning.:thumbsup:


Same here, not quite 18 years though just a little under that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> I thought you had been doing this longer than that, Ken.



I have... since the late 70's. But only 18 years as a professional.


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## vanskills (Nov 17, 2010)

Whats a res electrician top out at 12 dollars an hour?..:thumbsup:

Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow man. You sure like to take shots at others, but sure can't seem to take em yourself.

Everyone is a useful and integral part of this trade. Get over yourself.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

vanskills said:


> Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.


I do both, so that gives me license to be out of my mind. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Whats a res electrician top out at 12 dollars an hour?..:thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.



I guess when I go wire a house, I should leave 98% of my brain on my dresser.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

vanskills said:


> Whats a res electrician top out at 12 dollars an hour?..:thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.


Sometimes guys I work with think residential work is a joke, and while it is easier sometimes, I tell them this. 
If you mess up at a business and start a fire, least everyone is awake and has some warning...if you screw up someone's house, the sleeping family may not have that warning in a fire.

Vanskills, have you ever done a troubleshooting call on knob and tube wire? Ever worked out of a service van? Ever even done a resi service upgrade? If you haven't, then do the site a favor, and shut your ignorant immature mouth. 

Oh and by the way, I used to do resi service work, and made 25$ an hour.


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

I think it's been determined helping this guy is a lost cause. I'm willing to bet he's one of those guys that if a plumber gets in his way on a commercial site that plumbers going to have a hardhat full of piss the next day. :no:


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

Voltage drop calcs are few on the test. The main thing you need to know is how to navigate the NEC quickly so that you can spend time on the questions that you need to calculate or aren't sure about. Most of the questions can be answered out of the book so once you know the NEC it's a breeze.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Whats a res electrician top out at 12 dollars an hour?..:thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.


And there are posters on this forum that can make you feel like a 3rd year helper, with what you DO NOT KNOW, I mean you DO NOT even know voltage drop.

Understand one thing every one has a place in this trade, and no matter what your skill set I doubt you know it all.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

"Understand one thing every one has a place in this trade, and no matter what your skill set I doubt you know it all."

Well said!

I agree highly. And in defense of my ressy guys here; I am a ressy and I have made 130k in a year doing residential service work. Not all residential guys are ropers and believe it or not residential guys can teach commercial/industrial guys a thing or two also. Residential/Commercial/Industrial all have their differences but none is better than the other they're just different.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> . Residential/Commercial/Industrial all have their differences but none is better than the other they're just different.



I have seen some commercial and industrial guys do some DIY looking stuff when doing their own homes. One guy spaced his receptacles at 6' apart, not understanding the code intent.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

vanskills said:


> Whats a res electrician top out at 12 dollars an hour?..:thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone that thinks a ressy electrician is on the same level as an industrial guy installing 480 equiptment, motors, plcs, vfds is out of there mind.


Wow  I just looked in on this thread. Remind me *not *to hire this guy.

@Vanskills; In colorado, an apprentice at a good residential electric co. can make $12/hr. If (s)he is good, and being fast is not being good.

At two weeks of a residential job, I will expect you to pull wire as fast, if not faster, than the next guy. I just do not expect you to know much, except to be dangerous.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

brian john said:


> I have seen some commercial and industrial guys do some DIY looking stuff when doing their own homes. One guy spaced his receptacles at 6' apart, not understanding the code intent.


Got a new job tomorrow, looks like DIY, was told a previous HO was an electrician. If so, he did not have residential experience.

I plan to take pictures and will post, when I can.


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## electrictim510 (Sep 9, 2008)

I liked brian john's comment so much I quoted it for my signature.  

"Understand one thing every one has a place in this trade, and no matter what your skill set I doubt you know it all."


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

electrictim510 said:


> I liked brian john's comment so much I quoted it for my signature.
> 
> "Understand one thing every one has a place in this trade, and no matter what your skill set I doubt you know it all."


Thats in your post. You haven't made it your signature yet. Go to "User CP" at the top left and find "signature". :thumbsup:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Edrick said:


> I think it's been determined helping this guy is a lost cause. I'm willing to bet he's one of those guys that if a plumber gets in his way on a commercial site that plumbers going to have a hardhat full of piss the next day. :no:


Probably not for just getting in a man's way, but for stealing his tools that he makes a living with, definitely. :thumbsup:


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

vanskills said:


> I see your point.
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


I will be the first to tell you, I am a Master and cannot bend pipe for crap. I can do it but I have to think long and hard about what I am doing. As far as calculations go, I always double check the numbers on a set of prints. Engineers are human they can always make a mistake. Just think about how many times you have to make pipe fill, box fill, and VD calcs on a job site.


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

So in all of your ind/comm experiance, you have never run a feeder or a circuit say 300'? or do you just up one wire size and call it good? 

So I ask you my superior with at least 4 yrs in the trade whom frowns on the lowly resi rat... And please answer so I can grade you.


I have a 200a main and the customer wants a 100a sub feed in their detached garage that has a bathroom. PVC conduit. What size wires and how many? Do I need a ground rod? its 45' away from the main service.

I have a bathroom that has a combo fan/light/heatlamp over 4' away from the tub line, how do I wire it?

If I run a 12/3 to feed the 2 required Kitchen appliance circuits, and skip A phase and B phase every other outlet, all boxes underfill,what else must be done?

What is the only thing outdoors allowed not to be GFCI protected?

Is a 14/3 legal in a 3.5 cu/in pan box for a cieling fan? Why?

Are 2 14/3 and 2 14/2 legal in a box that has a 22.5 cu/in rating with a smoke detector in it?


ok


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

vanskills said:


> Come on man..lets be honest here.
> 
> A residential electrician and a industrial electrician are worlds apart.
> 
> ...


 
After 5 years YOU KNOW IT ALL INCLUDING - JACK ?!

Like you stated " LETS BE HONEST HERE" 
First you claim to have done alot of industrial and heavy commercial your entire "career". Then you post your "career" has a grand total of 5 years?!!
At 5 years it is still just a job - not a career YET

All I can say is typical remark for someone with 5 years in. 
1st year apprentice - doesn't know crap and they know it
2nd year apprentice - has an idea and starts to think got it
3rd year apprentice - realizes he still doesn't know enough
4th year apprentice - feels pretty sure of himself
5 th year - feeling cocky and knows it all
a Journeyman with 10 years in - Now realizes he doesn't know it all and most likely will not know it all.

I have been involved with the electrical trade for 28 years. I was a commercial forman for 22 of those years. I wouldn't make the comment you did about wiring a house.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Just like kids they think they know it all untill..... I was like that till i got on this site. You think you are pretty knowledgeable and probably are in the type of work you do but this site has taught me that this electrical field is way to broad to know it all. I'm definitely humbled and appreciate all the knowledge I get here.


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## wayne g (Nov 28, 2010)

Voltage drop cal is a must for all electricians, if this is on your test i can't answer that. But when your runing circuits you have to know when to up conductor size or you will be in a world of do do. :laughing:


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