# Troubleshooting



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Kind of sounds like bad bulb. I’d start there. If it’s ballasted starting can be a factor and you have to troubleshoot the ballast.

If you have 120 V then the assumption is bad fixture or bad bulb. But voltage measurements can fool you too. Google constriction resistance. So say your wiring is hanging on by a thread. So you get 120 V. But say it’s hanging on by a single strand of cable where it has corroded or worn in two. Still measures 120 V. But if I put a load on it, voltage suddenly drops. A little hard to do inside a socket. I have an adapter to pig tails that I use for this test.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I know @paulengr will disagree, but this is a prime job for a wiggy tester. Don’t check to ground either, if the neutral is wobbly, it will test good to ground but the circuit is line to neutral.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> I know @paulengr will disagree, but this is a prime job for a wiggy tester. Don’t check to ground either, if the neutral is wobbly, it will test good to ground but the circuit is line to neutral.


Never thought of that.
So if I got 120 from line to ground....
then got something odd from line to neutral . . . then there could be a rare issue with the neutral?

The location I'm dealing with has "illumination issues" at like 3 separate locations in the house.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

paulengr said:


> Kind of sounds like bad bulb. I’d start there. If it’s ballasted starting can be a factor and you have to troubleshoot the ballast.
> 
> If you have 120 V then the assumption is bad fixture or bad bulb. But voltage measurements can fool you too. Google constriction resistance. So say your wiring is hanging on by a thread. So you get 120 V. But say it’s hanging on by a single strand of cable where it has corroded or worn in two. Still measures 120 V. But if I put a load on it, voltage suddenly drops. A little hard to do inside a socket. I have an adapter to pig tails that I use for this test.


Beautiful catch on the fact that it could be hanging on by a thread . . . I'd get 120 volts and walk away . . . not knowing that the problem is the connection with the wire. I could only imagine how frustrating it would be searching everywhere else not knowing that this is the problem.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

First: do as 460 said in the above post.
Second: read hot to neutral, if you don't read correct voltage read hot to ground to check for bad neutral.
Third: 60volts is a sign of a ungrounded system reading checked to ground or
a second light bulb connected to the same circuit with a open connection to neutral so the two lights are in series. If this is a real life problem look for another light with same problem.

If you are an electrician not a DYI stay for enough posts to PM me and I will send you a troubleshooting book I wrote. 


Cowboy


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> First: do as 460 said in the above post.
> Second: read hot to neutral, if you don't read correct voltage read hot to ground to check for bad neutral.
> Third: 60volts is a sign of a ungrounded system reading checked to ground or
> a second light bulb connected to the same circuit with a open connection to neutral so the two lights are in series. If this is a real life problem look for another light with same problem.
> ...


I am an electrician. I've been doing this for 6 years now. As you know, you can never be an expert at everything in this field because there are so many aspects to doing what we do.

I primarily am phenomenal at bending conduit - running pipe. That's what I enjoy the most . . . 

due to the pandemic, and lack of work - I've been venturing into helping residences from having issues at their homes and I find so much joy in helping them.

Troubleshooting requires thinking . . . which I love. I would love your book. Please give me more information.

I have a lady that wants me to add some outlets to a room - 
She has sparking issues at the switch {Probably doesn't have electrical tape around the terminals. That's my guess without even looking at it}
And illumination issues at 3 different lights in the house {An outside light as well}.

I've never run into the final issue about illumination issues. . . so I'm just going through my head on how I'm going to tackle the problem. It doesn't make sense to me that she would need 3 brand new lights. . . unless these lights are super old and have run the course over the years and now she wants to start fixing the house . . . .


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> First: do as 460 said in the above post.
> Second: read hot to neutral, if you don't read correct voltage read hot to ground to check for bad neutral.
> Third: *60volts is a sign of a ungrounded system reading checked to ground or
> a second light bulb connected to the same circuit with a open connection to neutral so the two lights are in series*. If this is a real life problem look for another light with same problem.
> ...


Thinking on the bolded part . . . This is interesting. 
However, would this even be possible if the lights worked as intended for years before all of a sudden doing this? I could understand a new install doing this {Example : Some newbie just wired it horribly } 

But if it was originally wired right . . . and somehow a neutral detached in one of them . . . The light would have no way of coming on without a path back to the panel . . . .


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

simeon2014 said:


> I am an electrician. I've been doing this for 6 years now.
> 
> I have a lady that wants me to add some outlets to a room -
> 
> ...


What does not having tape wrapped around a device have to do with sparking?

A properly made up device should not need to be taped.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> What does not having tape wrapped around a device have to do with sparking?
> 
> A properly made up device should not need to be taped.



Everyone knows both plugs and wirenuts should be taped.

Your really off base here wirenuting :sad:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

emtnut said:


> Everyone knows both plugs and wirenuts should be taped.
> 
> Your really off base here wirenuting :sad:


I know, but it is winter and we need to keep all that extra heat in.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> I know, but it is winter and we need to keep all that extra heat in.



Good point.

Tip of the day, undersize the feeders. Then when you plug in the space heaters, the walls warm up too.

Free radiant heat :biggrin:


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

simeon2014 said:


> The location I'm dealing with has "illumination issues" at like 3 separate locations in the house.


I suggest you back up to the panel and make sure you don't have a compromised neutral from the PoCo.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

emtnut said:


> Good point.
> 
> Tip of the day, undersize the feeders. Then when you plug in the space heaters, the walls warm up too.
> 
> Free radiant heat :biggrin:



You the man!
So that's how you folks don't freeze way up north.. Free heat.. :vs_cool:


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

simeon2014 said:


> Thinking on the bolded part . . . This is interesting.
> However, would this even be possible if the lights worked as intended for years before all of a sudden doing this? I could understand a new install doing this {Example : Some newbie just wired it horribly }
> 
> But if it was originally wired right . . . and somehow a neutral detached in one of them . . . The light would have no way of coming on without a path back to the panel . . . .


Resi troubleshooting is a real specialty in that you have to visualize the circuit and all the mid-line splices in the receptacles and switches. An often useful way passed on to me by a now deceased alligator:sad: is to turn on the light and make a fist and bang on the wall at each receptacle and switch and watch what happens. Quite often the jarring will change the connection enough to make a visible difference.
R.I.P. cold-blooded one.


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> What does not having tape wrapped around a device have to do with sparking?
> 
> A properly made up device should not need to be taped.


I'm talking about putting electrical tape around the terminals of a switch and outlet before burying it.

Obviously electricity is always trying to get to ground - So you just play it safe by insulating the live terminals from the metal of the box.

A client of mine had both bedrooms out of power and lighting for a year. Finally got around to me and asked me to take a look at it. They were running extension cords all throughout the house to power the runs. After looking around, I noticed that boarded up an outlet in the corner of the room. They told me they did it cause the outlet would spark when they plugged stuff in - and then, the wall would feel hot at times. 

The outlet was fried to hell.

I notice that none of the devices buried in the house had any type around the terminals including the fried outlet. Essentially, the outlet had to have been loose. And while plugging things in the outlet, the outlet would move, and you'd get electricity arching from the outlet to the box {The sparks}.

Whoever installed it probably had loose connections, didn't tighten things down, and etc . . . but again, electrical tape won't hurt. I just hate the idea of live terminals being that close to the metal of the box without electrical tape.


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

I just had a similar job last week. The ceiling fan was homeoner installed about 8 years ago. The original wiring was soldered with rubber tape. The HO just wrapped the hot wire for the fan around the hot lead in the jbox. It took 8 years to finally corrode enough to go out. With no load I was getting about 80 to 90 volts line to ground and neutral. I HATE CEILING FANS


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

simeon2014 said:


> I'm talking about putting electrical tape around the terminals of a switch and outlet before burying it.
> 
> Obviously electricity is always trying to get to ground - So you just play it safe by insulating the live terminals from the metal of the box.
> 
> ...



A properly made up splice or device doesn't need nor require several wraps of tape. You do nothing but hold the heat in and make it a gooey mess for the guy who follows behind you later. 

Pigtail and not backstab. 
Trust your splices not your tape. 


Glad your good at bending pipe, it takes practice and skill, but trouble shooting takes both experience and skill..


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

simeon2014 said:


> Never thought of that.
> So if I got 120 from line to ground....
> then got something odd from line to neutral . . . then there could be a rare issue with the neutral?
> 
> The location I'm dealing with has "illumination issues" at like 3 separate locations in the house.


"then there could be a rare issue with the neutral?" 

When odd things happen the neutral is the first place you look. Its not a rare problem. 

On a home you have 2 legs with a neutral. If you get anything odd like 90 volts the first thing you do is open the panel and see if the other leg is 120 volts or 150v. Remember there is 240 between L1 and L2 the only reason there is 120v to neutral is because the neutral is connected to the transformer. A weak/floating connection to the transformer will allow the voltages to shift depending on the load. Comments like the lights get brighter or dimmer when i use the microwave is a good hint.

Light switch's wear out and the contacts spark. That leaves burnt tips that act as resistance thus the lights get dimmer. Also check for a dimmer as it wont be the first call for something obvious.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

Bad rivet on neutral contact in the fixture,...


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> A properly made up splice or device doesn't need nor require several wraps of tape. You do nothing but hold the heat in and make it a gooey mess for the guy who follows behind you later.


I think he was talking about a wrap of tape around the receptacle so the screw terminals aren't so close to shorting to the box.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Wardenclyffe said:


> Bad rivet on neutral contact in the fixture,...


Yeah, but I think he said he's having the problem with three fixtures.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

splatz said:


> I think he was talking about a wrap of tape around the receptacle so the screw terminals aren't so close to shorting to the box.


That's the only reason to do it especially on a cut out box.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

splatz said:


> I think he was talking about a wrap of tape around the receptacle so the screw terminals aren't so close to shorting to the box.


Sure on an old work Jem box with Madison straps are the only time I can understand a wrap of tape. 
Other then that wrapping things with tape is a cra$$y of doing things,,, just to be extra-extra safe.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> Sure on an old work Jem box with Madison straps are the only time I can understand a wrap of tape.
> Other then that wrapping things with tape is a cra$$y of doing things,,, just to be extra-extra safe.


 or to cover bad workmanship.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

flyboy said:


> Yeah, but I think he said he's having the problem with three fixtures.


Is what I Read,...




simeon2014 said:


> How would you attack this issue?
> 
> A light in the residence is too dim . . . won't brighten. Let's say getting the correct wattage bulb for the fixture doesn't change anything. How would you troubleshoot.
> 
> ...


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

simeon2014 said:


> How would you attack this issue?
> 
> A light in the residence is too dim . . . won't brighten. Let's say getting the correct wattage bulb for the fixture doesn't change anything. How would you troubleshoot.
> 
> ...


Last time I ran into this it turned out to be a bad neutral.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

simeon2014 said:


> Never thought of that.
> So if I got 120 from line to ground....
> then got something odd from line to neutral . . . then there could be a rare issue with the neutral?
> 
> *The location I'm dealing with has "illumination issues" at like 3 separate locations in the house.*





simeon2014 said:


> I am an electrician. I've been doing this for 6 years now. As you know, you can never be an expert at everything in this field because there are so many aspects to doing what we do.
> 
> I primarily am phenomenal at bending conduit - running pipe. That's what I enjoy the most . . .
> 
> ...





Wardenclyffe said:


> Is what I Read,...


I was going off what he said in bold above. It does contradict what he said in his original post. Who knows, maybe I'm readin it wrong.


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## Wardenclyffe (Jan 11, 2019)

flyboy said:


> I was going off what he said in bold above. It does contradict what he said in his original post. Who knows, maybe I'm readin it wrong.


I think two of his other threads were closed, lighting problems too,...


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

The OP has been given some good advice on how to move forward. I guess the OP is going to find out if he has a future in troubleshooting or if he is destined to be a pipe bender extraordinaire.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> What does not having tape wrapped around a device have to do with sparking?
> 
> A properly made up device should not need to be taped.


Unless the devices are powered up and hanging out of the wall boxes.....not that I’d ever do something like that.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

bill39 said:


> Unless the devices are powered up and hanging out of the wall boxes.....not that I’d ever do something like that.


haha, I was thinking the same thing. Tape on the device to keep it from shorting as you install it while everything is energized. Its amazing how often this was done years ago. 

On a side note. I think a lot of younger electricians struggle with troubleshooting because they are so used to working on EVERYTHING with the power off, even troubleshooting. With out being able to troubleshoot or open things up with power, you will never be good at troubleshooting. Some practices that were the norm years ago are not safe by today's standards but the things I learned were invaluable.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MotoGP1199 said:


> haha, I was thinking the same thing. Tape on the device to keep it from shorting as you install it while everything is energized. Its amazing how often this was done years ago.
> 
> On a side note. I think a lot of younger electricians struggle with troubleshooting because they are so used to working on EVERYTHING with the power off, even troubleshooting. With out being able to troubleshoot or open things up with power, you will never be good at troubleshooting. Some practices that were the norm years ago are not safe by today's standards but the things I learned were invaluable.


Sometimes it's a real goat rope if you can't just open everything up live & start checking.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

MotoGP1199 said:


> haha, I was thinking the same thing. Tape on the device to keep it from shorting as you install it while everything is energized. Its amazing how often this was done years ago.
> 
> On a side note. I think a lot of younger electricians struggle with troubleshooting because they are so used to working on EVERYTHING with the power off, even troubleshooting. With out being able to troubleshoot or open things up with power, you will never be good at troubleshooting. Some practices that were the norm years ago are not safe by today's standards but the things I learned were invaluable.


Very well stated.


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## didntdoit (Jun 18, 2020)

bill39 said:


> Unless the devices are powered up and hanging out of the wall boxes.....not that I’d ever do something like that.


 Please be careful, ran into a couple bad patches of boxes - sharp as heck. Couple minutes hanging and the insulation was cut thru.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I said this one million , two hundred thousand times. I tape for gem style boxes that are clip in or secured with battleships. Especially the 277 volt switches in high rise offices jobs. Because I know what happens when re-tards come around behind me ten years after. 

Some carpenter caused 3 floors to go down one day in a building because he removed the two 6-32 screws entirely from a light switch and then tried to pull the switch out (untapped and live ) shorting rather spectacularly. That blew one of 3 fuses for the floors. And that caused the fan coil units to single phase and smoked the motors. And that caused me to make a pile of money cause that building calls me up after any disaster like that, and him to lose a pile of money. 

I don't feel sorry for him, he should know better than try to dic around with wiring , especially in a commercial setting. But in his mind, electricians cost too much so he decided to proceed without one. ...................


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## Grogan14 (Jul 16, 2009)

Taping devices, other than specific situations, is beyond silly. Taping wire nuts is DIY-level hackery.


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## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

Do people seriously tape their wire nuts? WOW


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## [email protected] (Dec 30, 2019)

just the cowboy said:


> First: do as 460 said in the above post.
> Second: read hot to neutral, if you don't read correct voltage read hot to ground to check for bad neutral.
> Third: 60volts is a sign of a ungrounded system reading checked to ground or
> a second light bulb connected to the same circuit with a open connection to neutral so the two lights are in series. If this is a real life problem look for another light with same problem.
> ...


I'm a 3rd year apprentice. I want to improve my troubleshooting skills. You mentioned a book that you've written on troubleshooting. How would I be able to get a copy of it?

Thanks


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## simeon2014 (Nov 17, 2019)

Grogan14 said:


> Taping devices, other than specific situations, is beyond silly. Taping wire nuts is DIY-level hackery.


How is taping around the terminals on outlets silly?


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

Grogan14 said:


> Taping devices, other than specific situations, is beyond silly. Taping wire nuts is DIY-level hackery.


Some people are so full of themselves, this kind of crap gets squeezed out on the forum.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

simeon2014 said:


> How is taping around the terminals on outlets silly?


Exactly!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

simeon2014 said:


> How is taping around the terminals on outlets silly?


It is a waste of time and shows a level on DIY.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

brian john said:


> It is a waste of time and shows a level on DIY.


Show you were probably to lazy to go find the breaker.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

brian john said:


> It is a waste of time and shows a level on DIY.



No need for it. Taping wirenuts is even worse.
20A circuits for everything and/or 12awg on 15A circuits same thing.


DIY at it's best.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> Taping wirenuts is even worse.
> 
> DIY at it's best.


We just taped some set screw wire nuts on, on a 600 volt 3 phase motor... does that make us hacks?? Lol


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> We just taped some set screw wire nuts on, on a 600 volt 3 phase motor... does that make us hacks?? Lol



Yes.

NFPA 79 Clause 13.5.9.2 states, "Electrical connections at motor terminal boxes shall be made with an identified method of connection. Twist-on wire connections shall not be used for this purpose."

Two issues. First peckerheads are almost automatically damp locations. There are a few though especially the gel filled ones. Second few wire nuts are allowed in a vibration environment. If your motor isn’t shaking now when the load bearings go out it will be. Third following up to both of those, NONE of the instructions ever state to wrap the nut in electrical tape.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

paulengr said:


> Yes.
> 
> NFPA 79 Clause 13.5.9.2 states, "Electrical connections at motor terminal boxes shall be made with an identified method of connection. Twist-on wire connections shall not be used for this purpose."
> 
> Two issues. First peckerheads are almost automatically damp locations. There are a few though especially the gel filled ones. Second few wire nuts are allowed in a vibration environment. If your motor isn’t shaking now when the load bearings go out it will be. Third following up to both of those, NONE of the instructions ever state to wrap the nut in electrical tape.


I said set screw not twist on.

Here's what we used: http://tnb.ca/en/pdf-catalogues/wire-termination/wire-connectors/set-screw-vibration-proof.pdf

only reason for taping them is we are worried about the screw on shell vibrating off, although the datasheet says they won't...

If we have an issue with the peckerhead being damp, we have bigger issues because it's inside a climate controlled building on a spray booth...

And the instructions don't say not to tape them, so.... lol


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I'm a 3rd year apprentice. I want to improve my troubleshooting skills. You mentioned a book that you've written on troubleshooting. How would I be able to get a copy of it?
> 
> Thanks


Get your post count up to 20 then you can PM me your email


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> I said set screw not twist on.
> 
> Here's what we used: http://tnb.ca/en/pdf-catalogues/wire-termination/wire-connectors/set-screw-vibration-proof.pdf
> 
> ...



I haven’t seen mechanical lugs loosen if tightened properly the first time. They come in two types. The ones that have an anvil on the end of a screw compress everything evenly and I haven’t seen many issues. They are called “cage clamps” by one manufacturer. The type that has a single set screw that compresses directly into the cable compresses in the middle but the outer edges are never compressed. Often when you take one apart strands are busted in the middle and melted together but corroded (no loading) on the edges. I guess it passes UL but I have no idea why. These often also gall (set screw is aluminum) strip out, jam with strands stuck in the grooves, you name it. If you have say three phases you can look how far the screw went in to try to guess if it’s fully engaged or messed up somehow. They are frequently an issue.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

paulengr said:


> I haven’t seen mechanical lugs loosen if tightened properly the first time. They come in two types. The ones that have an anvil on the end of a screw compress everything evenly and I haven’t seen many issues. They are called “cage clamps” by one manufacturer. The type that has a single set screw that compresses directly into the cable compresses in the middle but the outer edges are never compressed. Often when you take one apart strands are busted in the middle and melted together but corroded (no loading) on the edges. I guess it passes UL but I have no idea why. These often also gall (set screw is aluminum) strip out, jam with strands stuck in the grooves, you name it. If you have say three phases you can look how far the screw went in to try to guess if it’s fully engaged or messed up somehow. They are frequently an issue.


I guess it's a good thing the motor is only 3.55 amps FLA. 

The set screws on mine are the same material as the rest of it(what material, I am not sure, I'd have to check).

I also don't normally do motors that often, especially 600 volt motors, but this is a job that pays well, so we're doing it. The times i have done motors, we used crimp on rings that mounted to a stud pre-installed in the motor. 

We also don't usually need to install overload protection... I'll post some photos in the thread that's my name.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> We just taped some set screw wire nuts on, on a 600 volt 3 phase motor... does that make us hacks?? Lol



I'll hold off any judgment till I see the pics :biggrin:


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> I'll hold off any judgment till I see the pics [emoji3]


Well I'm not climbing back on top to take the cover off and get pics, so you can use your imagination lol


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Kevin_Essiambre said:


> Well I'm not climbing back on top to take the cover off and get pics, so you can use your imagination lol



Tapes wirenuts, AND he's lazy :biggrin:


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## JasonCo (Mar 23, 2015)

What type of fixture is this? Is it LED, florescent, etc.. Is the bulb direct 120 or is there a ballast involved? Also let us know what you are reading from hot to neutral, hot to ground, and neutral to ground at the fixture. This will explain just about everything for helping you out.

Edit: Just read a couple posts down where you talk about this same illumination problem happening in multiple areas in the house. Hmm, yeah what are you reading from hot to neutral or neutral to ground? This is the first thing you need to do.

Actually try this first. If you turn off the circuit breaker that is feeding these dim lights, does that ONE BREAKER turn off all the lights that are dim, or just 1 and the other dim ones are still on after turning the breaker off? This is key. If multiple lights are dim and they are on different breakers, you need to start looking into troubleshooting the panel/disconnect/meter, etc... In this case you probably have a loose neutral or hot that is not getting good contact and causing the lights to dim. Remember you have 2 phases in a house, some lights are on 1 phase and some lights are on the other phase. So if one of the phases is not getting 120v at the panel, this might explain why some lights are dim and some are bright. If the neutral has 30 volts on it and the hot has 120v or the hot only has like 90 volts on it, regardless of the situation this will cause the lights to dim. The lights need to be getting 120v from hot to neutral in order to work properly. 

Tell us what you are getting at the light, hot to neutral, hot to ground, ground to neutral. Also try the breaker thing out. This will explain everything. Let us know. Good luck


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

emtnut said:


> Tapes wirenuts, AND he's lazy [emoji3]


I'm so lazy I delighted it. I got my brother to climb up and do the work! Lol

In reality he took that over having to move stuff to start on the sub-panel.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I was in wally world and i came across electricians duck-tape. 

Is this like the small scissors that you guys carry to show other electricians you are part of a gang.


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## didntdoit (Jun 18, 2020)

thanks for the giggles guys.
so how 'bout this, I used to be able to snip the penny like the add


gpop said:


> Is this like the small scissors that you guys carry to show other electricians you are part of a gang.


 Now I bet I would mess myself trying that.


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