# Employer won't provide arc flash PPE



## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

Like the title says, working for a municipality that expects me to work hot in big old switchgear from the 1970s and won't provide arc flash protection. 

There is a suit available to me, but it is meant for a much smaller individual. This hasn't come to a head--yet, but any other place I've been expected to work on stuff that could really go boom there's at least been a jumpsuit and the orange face shield available. 

Would it be best to buy my own gear, refuse to work in gear with potential for a big arc or just find another employer?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

superdeez said:


> Like the title says, working for a municipality that expects me to work hot in big old switchgear from the 1970s and won't provide arc flash protection.
> 
> There is a suit available to me, but it is meant for a much smaller individual. This hasn't come to a head--yet, but any other place I've been expected to work on stuff that could really go boom there's at least been a jumpsuit and the orange face shield available.
> 
> Would it be best to buy my own gear, refuse to work in gear with potential for a big arc or just find another employer?


Just call the utility every time to kill it at the pole until they get you a suit. Trust me it’s. It fun when 4160 blows on you


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I wouldn't work without it. Also need an updated arc flash study to tell what gear to use.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

First and foremost, if you don't feel safe, refuse the work. Tell your employer why and then go from there.


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## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

superdeez said:


> Like the title says, working for a municipality that expects me to work hot in big old switchgear from the 1970s and won't provide arc flash protection.
> 
> There is a suit available to me, but it is meant for a much smaller individual. This hasn't come to a head--yet, but any other place I've been expected to work on stuff that could really go boom there's at least been a jumpsuit and the orange face shield available.
> 
> Would it be best to buy my own gear, refuse to work in gear with potential for a big arc or just find another employer?


I'd say find another employer. State or Fed OSHA would require them to provide the gear.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

That_Dude said:


> I'd say find another employer. State or Fed OSHA would require them to provide the gear.


You’d be surprised. Municipal governments are pretty far behind.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

superdeez said:


> Like the title says, working for a municipality that expects me to work hot in big old switchgear from the 1970s and won't provide arc flash protection.
> 
> There is a suit available to me, but it is meant for a much smaller individual. This hasn't come to a head--yet, but any other place I've been expected to work on stuff that could really go boom there's at least been a jumpsuit and the orange face shield available.
> 
> Would it be best to buy my own gear, refuse to work in gear with potential for a big arc or just find another employer?


My employer has this stuff but is pretty flexible.

My insulated winter overalls and jacket are 40 cal. So I just need the hood and gloves.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Let me guess, it’s old bolted pressure switches they want you to operate for the first time since 1980?

Just do it naked, they will save money on cremation.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paulengr said:


> You’d be surprised. Municipal governments are pretty far behind.


Go to a lawyer. Get a LETTER registered and sent to the appropriate entity "Dear *___* It is my client's understanding you resist/refuse to comply with current satandard lawful and lawfully required employee safety protocol and provide my client (Et Al: John Done, your "employee of record" with proper safety PPE as required by OSHA and federal law?" Please respond by *____*-.

Until then, my client remains in your employ, awaiting a n amicable resolution.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

You work for a municipality so that means they have a safety and HR departments.

Both of which when contacted could get you fired. Does this place have a set of procedures written down? Are you being asked to break procedures?

I am assuming that there are no arc flash studies done so you do not have a clue what you are working on. 

Switch gear from the 70's I would be asking for the remote control equipment so you do not have tot be in front of it.

If you do not feel safe do not do it. 

I had a manager once tell me to throw a S&C 15Kv air switch. We did not have the correct fuses so manger instructed the crew to put bigger fuses in. Not that much bigger 10 amps. 
I refused to operate the switch so I took off my personal lock and cleared the area, Manager threw the switch which immediately faulted. I was 30 feet away and watched the stunned man back up into a wall at speed. The supervisor of the plant came out of his office because the plant was now dark, This action had tripped 3 circuit breakers on that bus. I was told to fix the problem and I told manager dude to get out of the building. He refused. The building supervisor told him to leave, he refused. building supervisor called the police. He left. 
S&C builds some good stuff. Took the fault and the door held, glass in the door held. 
Took us 8 hours of splitting the busing to the faulted cabinet and cleaning up the arc flash. 
Finally got it back together and returned operation to the chillers in the plant. It took a week for the system to recover to the temps we had before the accident. 
I was given a reprimand for my actions. I had been verbally abusive. I was told that in 6 months the reprimand would be removed. 3 years later when I quit it was brought up again.
I got up and walked out telling my boss I should have quit on the spot.

Be very careful what you do. Management has a bad habit of not being your freind when they are in the wrong. Might be time to look for another job and when you get close ask for a substantial raise. Safety and HR are there to protect management and the company not you my friend.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

PPE is always the last resort. There are five steps to take before it. Once you have the proper PPE you need training and education on when and how to use it. I get a kick out of companies that claim to have a documented safety program but never send the men out for training.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

When FR first came on the scene, I called Minnesota OSHA about employer’s providing it. I was told the rule was written different than say ear, eye or respiratory protection. The employer was to insure employees wore the correct PPE. Things have changed over the decades. I believe OSHA has changed the language and your employer may be behind the times. Here is an article on this topic.



https://tyndaleusa.com/blog/2014/06/06/key-osha-29-cfr-1910-269-update-employer-responsibility-to-provide-fr-clothing/


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## BillyMac59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Check your local/state legislation. Here in Ontario, Canada, I have the right to refuse the unsafe work. The catch, though, is that legislation also says appropriate PPE will be available for the task. It does not say the PPE is bought and paid for by the employer/company. For example, my current employer has provided me with cat. 2 uniforms, rubber/leather gloves, helmet and faceshield. I am on the hook for their replacement should they not be returned when I cease being an employee.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If they are in violation of OSHA regulations, you can report them and refuse the work. There are whistleblower laws that prohibit them from firing you in retaliation. They might violate those laws and fire you anyway for blowing the whistle or for refusing unsafe non-compliant work. If they do, you could get a lawyer and pursue a wrongful termination suit. Depending where you are, municipalities get sued all the time and lose a lot and pay substantial settlements. Juries are not too sympathetic to municipalities. The bureaucrats that work for the city / township / borough don't care that much, it's not their money. 

Municipalities often don't have a real squared away HR department that tells them how to do things without getting sued. If pushed, the municipality could decide to just outsource work on that switchgear to contractors and pay whatever OSHA fines they have to for work done to date. If they do that, they might decide they can get rid of one electrician to offset that cost - that might be you. That might cost them much more, but government employess couldn't possibly care less. So you'd be out of a job and no lucrative lawsuit to pursue. Then six months later they might decide to restructure their maintenance department, bring that work back in house, and hire someone for a slightly different position - one that you're not qualified for, but their cousin just so happens to be a perfect fit. 



LGLS said:


> Go to a lawyer. Get a LETTER registered and sent to the appropriate entity


You might want to consult with a lawyer in advance in case they take retaliatory action. The lawyer can advise you about dotting your i's and crossing your t's when you refuse work so that you have a a strong case in case they do fire you in retaliation. You can also have the lawyer contact them in writing as @LGLS said above. Sometimes people will clean up their act when you shine a light on things. If they know there's a lawyer involved, they know there's a chance they may have the headache of defending a lawsuit, even if the money doesn't come out of their pocket. They may very well decide that buying an arc flash suit to shut you up is less trouble and again, not their money. 

Also very important, the lawyer can advise you if push comes to shove and you sue them, what it would cost you to pursue this kind of lawsuit, what your odds are of winning, how much you'd stand to win, and how long it would take before you see your money. The municipality's (or their insurance company) could offer a very small settlement and if you don't settle, drag out your case as long as they can. 

If you get fired, right or wrong, win or lose, the next day you'll have to find another job and explain to prospective employers that you were fired for refusing unsafe work. 

A lot of small government bureaucrats are good at getting rid of people they don't like without firing them and without getting themselves in trouble. Just doing whatever they can to make sure your job is as miserable as possible. Be prepared to get called in on Thanksgiving for bullshit, getting the worst truck, getting the worst jobs, getting no overtime, etc. 

All that said, this is the most important thing: 



joe-nwt said:


> First and foremost, if you don't feel safe, refuse the work.


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## mle33 (Oct 18, 2013)

superdeez said:


> Like the title says, working for a municipality that expects me to work hot in big old switchgear from the 1970s and won't provide arc flash protection.
> 
> There is a suit available to me, but it is meant for a much smaller individual. This hasn't come to a head--yet, but any other place I've been expected to work on stuff that could really go boom there's at least been a jumpsuit and the orange face shield available.
> 
> Would it be best to buy my own gear, refuse to work in gear with potential for a big arc or just find another employer?


i had the opposite problem at my municipality. the only suit was like a 4X and i swam in it. i bitched enough that they finally got me an appropriate one. just remind them how bad its gonna be if you fry on the job due to their not providing the PPE you require to be safe


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Suit or no suit you’re gonna die it will just be an open casket funeral


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

like splatz said .... find another job .... today, go home sick if necessary but do it today

legally you should not be in this position, but realistically your are

leave today .... or you will be fired eventually, or worse you will be dead if you give in and do it

_somebody will die working that gear hot_


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Awww f it man... go in without PPE and bring a sect5ion of chain link fence with ya, toss it onto the hot gear and get it overwith.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I think you should explain to your boss that you cannot in good faith work with a suit that will not protect you.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

In my mind there is more going on other than a grand in PPE protective equipment.

Without a arc flash study you do not know if a 40 cal suit will even protect you.

I worked places where there is no FR clothing made that can protect life. I do not mean K aic I mean M aic. The place were it was M aic for certain situations we had to get the power company to put us on one transformer before operating any large load. Some of the breakers were running about 900 amps at 15kv. Need to be a block away when they tripped.

Yes the PPE is an issue but with out the documentation you may be walking into a gun fight with out even a knife. 

Do you wear electrical hazard boots? If your not why not?


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

Wow lots of good advice.

There is nothing that I can add, that the-others have not said. Than, go home safe or better than the condition your were in (richer) than when you went to work that day.

You deserve it. Hell, we all do…..


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## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

Yes, I wear electrical hazard boots. Also FR trousers from my old job. Primarily because they're cargo pants and I don't know how to survive without the cargo pockets lol. 

To answer the issue of there is more going on here, there is. It's a very small department (6 guys and a secretary) that has one leg in the parks department and the other in Public Works. It had been between 6-12 months my position was open within the department and the guy that hired me apparently was either greatly misinformed or desperate enough to blatantly lie to me during the hiring process. It wasn't until I got an official orientation over three weeks into the job I learned what the benefits really were. It was a lesson in doing my homework, some of what he was greatly misinformed about was publicly available information. 

Some arc flash studies have been done on newer gear or where things have been inspected. Believe it or not, this place actually has a sewage liftstation inside of a main switchgear room. It isn't even closed up, they just threw some plywood over the hole so people would be less likely to fall down into the cesspool. You can actually look down and see the raw sewage. They haven't asked me to do anything in there yet. 

Job search is in progress, though talking to an attorney might not be a bad idea for damage control if a sudden end does come to this job. I've never seen so many panels with mystery wires shoved under the main lugs and going off God knows where. A 225A main breaker will protect that #12 when too many space heaters get plugged in, right? This from a 120v panel where literally every breaker is a tandem.

Most days it hasn't been too bad, but at some point it will end up coming to a head. Sad part is I left a job I liked for this place. I started casually looking because of some minor BS and the "seven year ache" and without even thinking about it wound up here. Actually I left a gravy train I could have ridden the next 20-30 years into retirement.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. Oh yeah, and the throw a chain link fence into the panel...wouldn't it be better if I was wearing some oil soaked synthetic T-shirt to cut down on cremation costs?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Work for the federal government, they have a better track record for safety,,,, Well it took awhile, but it’s there.

USAJobs.gov


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

superdeez said:


> wouldn't it be better if I was wearing some oil soaked synthetic T-shirt to cut down on cremation costs?


No, the EPA will scoop up your remains and fine you for polluting.


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## superdeez (Sep 13, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> No, the EPA will scoop up your remains and fine you for polluting.


Oh crap, you're right. I guess I'm going to do it with a case of fluorescent lamps under each arm...if I'm going to get fined for polluting, I might as well make it count.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

superdeez said:


> Oh crap, you're right. I guess I'm going to do it with a case of fluorescent lamps under each arm...if I'm going to get fined for polluting, I might as well make it count.


That’s the sprit, your a team player now.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

superdeez said:


> Yes, I wear electrical hazard boots. Also FR trousers from my old job. Primarily because they're cargo pants and I don't know how to survive without the cargo pockets lol.
> 
> To answer the issue of there is more going on here, there is. It's a very small department (6 guys and a secretary) that has one leg in the parks department and the other in Public Works. It had been between 6-12 months my position was open within the department and the guy that hired me apparently was either greatly misinformed or desperate enough to blatantly lie to me during the hiring process. It wasn't until I got an official orientation over three weeks into the job I learned what the benefits really were. It was a lesson in doing my homework, some of what he was greatly misinformed about was publicly available information.
> 
> ...


Raw sewage releases hydrogen sulfide. This attacks silver especially but also nickel and copper. Humans can smell it at 1 ppm and it becomes toxic at 10 ppm. But it will corrode electrical gear at 0.1 ppm.

That’s bad enough, but it gets worse. Google the words “silver whiskers”. Occasionally silver corrosion reverses and within hours to days grows long hair-like crystals of pure silver that can be inches long. Bus bars in switchgear and breakers especially in low voltage are loaded with silver.

It is so severe that one of my customers for instance is a “regular”…about every 3-5 years one of his two drives that are in a particularly bad lift station has to be replaced.

All reasons that you need to be extra cautious around sewage.


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