# Well I'll be, a GEC through a 1/4" hole (pics)



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Safe, NEC compliant, even recommended by the manufacturers who put the hole there and list it for that express purpose. Looks good.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Safe, NEC compliant, even recommended by the manufacturers who put the hole there and list it for that express purpose. Looks good.



And signed off and approved. This one will have meters in it shortly.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> And signed off and approved. This one will have meters in it shortly.


Of course, there is no way for an inspector to fail that, he would have absolutely no leg to stand on and he would deserve to be fired and kicked out of the IAEI.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Of course, there is no way for an inspector to fail that, he would have absolutely no leg to stand on and he would deserve to be fired and kicked out of the IAEI.


Absolutely. This particular development has over 100 houses in it, the majority of which are done like this. I did a few of them myself.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I should add that it's almost all Milbank meter sockets too, used in accordance with manufacturers approval for the 1/4" hole.



Milbank_Marissa said:


> From the engineering department: "We have corner notches in the bottoms to drain water. The 1/4" KO is for the grounding wire."


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Are these town homes? Why no main breakers?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Are these town homes? Why no main breakers?


One floor condos. The main breakers are in the left compartment.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm disappointed in Hax for not talking chit about a copper GEC .

I'll find out tomorrow if I get away with my custom 5/16 hole I drill myself. Word on the street is this inspector failed a job for using the GEC hole instead of an NM connector LOL. The rumor is he said it's a weep hole!?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

That GEC is going to the ground rods and required to be copper.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

HackWork said:


> That GEC is going to the ground rods and required to be copper.


Right you are. Still ,somehow in my area THWN-2 is cheaper than bare.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I used THHN as well (THWN will always be THHN to me). I don't like using bare copper, too many thieves out there. Black THHN looks like cable or phone wire.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

MTW said:


> And signed off and approved. This one will have meters in it shortly.


You need to substantiate your claim. 

I want to see pictures of the installed meters and the final inspection sticker from the inspector. 

I also want to see a picture of the inspectors official IAEI membership card.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

flyboy said:


> You need to substantiate your claim.
> 
> I want to see pictures of the installed meters and the final inspection sticker from the inspector.


Ok you got me, I took the "approved" sticker off another service that had the GEC going through a Kenny clamp. 



> I also want to see a picture of the inspectors official IAEI membership card.


He failed this service, that is all the proof you need.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I like the 'portable' approved card :yes:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Code requires a Kenny clamp on each side of that community bonding device to prevent it from becoming a choke issue when one million volts of electricity burn down all those townhouse units. Here is the backup: 422.10 (B). Don't be such a lowlife despicable hack who supports the misery inflicted on the


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:lol:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Arrow3030 said:


> I'm disappointed in Hax for not talking chit about a copper GEC .
> 
> I'll find out tomorrow if I get away with my custom 5/16 hole I drill myself. Word on the street is this inspector failed a job for using the GEC hole instead of an NM connector LOL. The rumor is he said it's a weep hole!?


A weep hole ? I cannot be sure cause memory is a little
fuzzy , but I believe someone else posted something similar
in another thread about this very same issue. 
Can't recall which one though...sorry.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have to send a nasty letter to the NFPA, because their ink has smeared in my copy of the code book and it clearly shows that aluminum is an acceptable GEC under the proper conditions where it is more than 18" from grade..........250.62

And....... No place in my ink stained code book shows me that a cad weld is a *REQUIREMENT* when attaching the gec to the ground rod.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What?


What potential galvanic corrosion is he talking about here I wonder, this fellow thinks the gec has magic quality me thinks. 


I met a hippy once who walked around barefoot all the time because he says that he is grounded better that way, and therefore he will live to be 900 yrs old like they did before Noah and the great flood.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> What?


Maybe this will help.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.


:huh:

Paul, don't take this wrong but, it may be best if you stay with motors.

Roger


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

As an Official IAEI Certified Electrical Inspector and Top Flight Member, I count no less than 5 fatal flaws with his post.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would love to see the first inspector that told me I had to cadweld the wire to the ground rod. I wonder if he would get mad at me as I was on the floor laughing at him hysterically.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.


:confused1::001_huh::001_huh:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I wonder if chicken steve will give his input. I mean, here we have a real world, proven installation of a GEC through the factory approved hole, in a Milbank product no less. 

Maybe I'll post pics of the exact same setup with meters in it already if I go back there.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > What?
> ...


My mother in law got the flu during Xmas and stayed with us for a week until she got better. We found her one morning standing outside in the dirt barefoot. She said it cleared her sinuses. I told her she didn't have to go outside since the fridge is connected to the earth. Later that day she was caught hugging our fridge.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why ?? 

For myself ., I would not use the caldweld unless it is speced in the job due some of us allready know the cost will go up if use the caldweld.

caldweld for resdentail ground rods ?? maybe for new construction but for upgrading I dont think so unless you have a fire watch.,


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

paulengr said:


> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal. Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds. Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:vs_blush:....you have no idea what you just started.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I would love to see the first inspector that told me I had to cadweld the wire to the ground rod. I wonder if he would get mad at me as I was on the floor laughing at him hysterically.


The only time I've ever had to cadweld was for the grounding on pad mount transformer installations required by POCO specifications, not the NEC.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

flyboy said:


> The only time I've ever had to cadweld was for the grounding on pad mount transformer installations required by POCO specifications, not the NEC.




I said push their products, not mandatory. And Caldwell is just easier to learn compared to TIG. Either way I’m the repair guy...I’ve seen grounds disappear in under six months from doing silly things like tying it into aluminum which eats the copper.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

paulengr said:


> I said push their products, not mandatory. And Caldwell is just easier to learn compared to TIG. Either way I’m the repair guy...I’ve seen grounds disappear in under six months from doing silly things like tying it into aluminum which eats the copper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Uh huh...I see. :thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

This service was energized last week. :thumbup:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

MTW said:


> This service was energized last week. :thumbup:


Cool ... who did the welding ?

:biggrin:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Cool ... who did the welding ?
> 
> :biggrin:


Oh thanks alot Emtnut !! 

I almost spill my coffee when I read that reply .,, :vs_coffee:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by paulengr View Post
> The Code talks to continuous and substantial which is how the Caldweld people push their products. That makes an NM clamp illegal.


From what I understand the reason an NM clamp is not approved is no one bothered to get it listed and why would they do that when they can sell a more expensive product.



> Best you can do is run copper (insulated or bare) from ground bar to ground rod with a connector at the ground rod or some inspectors insist on cad welded to the rod for residential. That’s assuming you don’t need one of the half dozen alternative grounds.


I have never seen a Cadweld connection used in residential and only in commercial when specified.



> Also NO steel, aluminum. Stainless is a maybe. Again plenty of documentation showing copper coated steel or outright copper or stainless are your choices. That NM connector is going to set up potential galvanic corrosion.


I have never seen an aluminum ground rod, but galvanized steel is very common. Copper clad and stainless are utilized but less so than galvanized electrodes.

Most common connection is the Acorn clamp.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I used the size bit I had in the drill lol


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Well I'll be....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> At this point i've probably a good dz emails to reps Dennis
> 
> ~CS~


 @chicken steve, can you please tell us which manufacturers you contacted and what their reply was? In the month since you made this post to Dennis I'm sure you got replies. Thanks.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I want in on this tomfoolery

Sent from my P008 using Tapatalk


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

*i*



HackWork said:


> That GEC is going to the ground rods and required to be copper.


Required to be copper? Code section?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nolabama said:


> I want in on this tomfoolery
> 
> Sent from my P008 using Tapatalk


Just grab a bit and drill and get on it :vs_laugh:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> required to be copper? Code section?


250.64(a)


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Just grab a bit and drill and get on it :vs_laugh:


I'd rather use the hole provided by the manufacturer but if you insist...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

flyboy said:


> The only time I've ever had to cadweld was for the grounding on pad mount transformer installations required by POCO specifications, not the NEC.


Cadwelds is something military/government engineers love to spec on their 'special' projects buildings.


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> 250.64(a)


I see your mistake then, you said “required” instead of “should” or “most common”. Easy to mix up I guess.

Using AL would be silly since then you would need 10’ rods and at least 18” of rod above ground to connect but it would be legit.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> I see your mistake then, you said “required” instead of “should” or “most common”. Easy to mix up I guess.
> 
> Using AL would be silly since then you would need 10’ rods and at least 18” of rod above ground to connect but it would be legit.


No, I stand by what I said. 

What you are doing is no different than saying that GFCI's aren't required on a kitchen counter because you can build a watertight box around them that is only accessible from the room behind the kitchen. 

Maybe you should go around and correct everyone that said tamper resistant receptacles are required in certain places because they can put normal receptacles there as long as they are over 5' high. :glasses:

Good job on your first and second posts on this forum, you will do well here :vs_laugh:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> No, I stand by what I said.


Temperamental little fellow aren’t you.

So are all GECs to ground rods “required” to be copper?

Required would mean in all cases, not what is most common or most likely.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> Temperamental little fellow aren’t you.


 I am very emotional.



> So are all GECs to ground rods “required” to be copper?
> 
> Required would mean in all cases, not what is most common or most likely.


I gave very good examples. We generally say that "_Receptacles in residential bedrooms are required to be tamper resistant_". That is accurate, even though some snotty little doosh might come along trying to be Mr KnowItAll and say that not all of them are "required" to be TR, such as ones located above 5'.

Everyone knows what I meant and I will maintain what I said about being required to use copper for ground rods. I am not going to give 50 disclaimers for everything that I say just to appease some newb.

If you want to pick everything apart to a microscopic level that no real electrician ever would, Mike Holt's is that way ----->


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> I am very emotional.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was there an answer to my question in all that ranting?

If so, I seemed to have missed it.

Would you like me to repeat it? You seem easily sidetracked.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> Was there an answer to my question in all that ranting?
> 
> If so, I seemed to have missed it.
> 
> Would you like me to repeat it? You seem easily sidetracked.


I like you. What were your other usernames here? 

Frunk? :vs_OMG:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> I like you.


I was looking for an answer, not a date.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> I was looking for an answer, not a date.


Can't we have both?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

This thread is going to deliver ... I can feel it :vs_laugh:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kraken said:


> I see your mistake then, you said “required” instead of “should” or “most common”. Easy to mix up I guess.
> 
> Using AL would be silly since then you would need 10’ rods and at least 18” of rod above ground to connect but it would be legit.


I didn't know you guys could leave ground rods 2' above the ground :biggrin:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Can't we have both?


I doubt it.

I would have a hard time understanding someone with his foot in his mouth, but will not admit it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> I would have a hard time understanding someone with his foot in his mouth, but will not admit it.


I'm glad you chose to make all 6 of your posts on this forum about me. Apparently you know how much I thrive on that :vs_cool:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

emtnut said:


> I didn't know you guys could leave ground rods 2' above the ground :biggrin:


It's like not installing a countertop on the base cabinets in a kitchen to get around having to install the required outlets :vs_laugh:


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> It's like not installing a countertop on the base cabinets in a kitchen to get around having to install the required outlets :vs_laugh:


That works for me :laughing:

I sometimes remove the sink so I don't have to install any GFCIs :biggrin:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Apparently you know how much I thrive on that :vs_cool:


Psychologists say most children and adults with learning disabilities do, I suppose they may be correct.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> Psychologists say most children and adults with learning disabilities do, I suppose they may be correct.


What are you doing wasting time in this thread? You have literally thousands of instances of people posting that AFCI's are *required* in certain rooms that you have to correct by telling them that they aren't required for 240V circuits. 
Get to it!


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kraken said:


> Psychologists say most children and adults with learning disabilities do, I suppose they may be correct.


Do you talk to Psychologists often ?

Do they talk back to you, even when they are not there ?


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> What are you doing wasting time in this thread?


Well,,,,,because beating up on you at the moment is like whacking an empty piñata:

Nothing good will come out of it in the end but it is rather fun.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> Well,,,,,because beating up on you at the moment is like whacking an empty piñata:
> 
> Nothing good will come out of it in the end but it is rather fun.


So you are suffering from the same delusions of grandeur as Steve, huh?



8 of your 8 posts about me :vs_OMG:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> So you are suffering from the same delusions...


I have no delusions that a copper GEC is always required when connecting to a ground rod.

I believe that was your statement IIRC. 

Shall I go back and check for you?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> I have no delusions that a copper GEC is always required when connecting to a ground rod.
> 
> I believe that was your statement IIRC.
> 
> Shall I go back and check for you?


9 out of 9. :smile:


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## kraken (Jan 26, 2018)

HackWork said:


> 9 out of 9. :smile:


Well, true I guess but I still have no wish to date you. Sorry.

And about copper Gecs and when required in regards to rods?

Always......?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kraken said:


> Well, true I guess but I still have no wish to date you. Sorry.
> 
> And about copper Gecs and when required in regards to rods?
> 
> Always......?


10 out of 10. :vs_bananasplit:


Let's see if we could get this one to 1,000. :biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MTW said:


> Well I'll be....


In case anyone didn't realize, that's a field made "modification". :vs_laugh:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

MTW said:


> In case anyone didn't realize, that's a field made "modification". :vs_laugh:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I like you. What were your other usernames here?
> 
> Frunk? :vs_OMG:


Before I get a PM saying "Hello Kraken" ,
I want you to know it's not me:vs_bananasplit:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:biggrin::vs_laugh:


emtnut said:


> This thread is going to deliver ... I can feel it :vs_laugh:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I had an inspector make me put it in a romex connector because he didn't like the hole. I didn't feel like arguing at the time. So (humor me), is it size of the hole that it passes through in relation to the size of the conductor? I never run the GEC in emt because I don't feel like dealing with the choke fittings at the end. So if the hole is the problem, is running it through pvc the same problem? That is without a bonding bushing? Its going to land on the can anyway...


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