# Am I being a pansy



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Was it live? Then no, you were not being a "pansy".


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MTW said:


> Was it live? Then no, you were not being a "pansy".



I always enjoyed the thrill when the hole saw would fall right in the middle of the gear when the drill made it all the way through the metal...:laughing:


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Oh yes it was live.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)




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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

It is amazing to me that in this day and time we are still having to fight the hot work culture of old.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

When's the scheduled shutdown?

I'll assume the locknut would be attached when there is no power in
those boxes.

Who ever told your do do that should be wrote up...

At least you came home tonight! Hold you head up!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Drilling the holes is easy. Putting the connectors in can be hairy. Honestly I think modern gear makes it pretty easy to do it. Just remove the top skinny cover and do your thing. I got no problem doing it but I would never make anybody else do it or shun them for not wanting to


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

with proper cardboard stuffing inside I would have done it


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MTW said:


>


.............


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Was there a chance you'd be exposed to energized parts? If the answer is "yes" I wouldn't do it either. What does the customer say? We can't even install an MCC bucket if it's not deenergized.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

Unless you're planning on running the wires and connecting them all while the gear is live, what's the point?

Drill four holes during the shutdown, literally adds maybe 10 minutes to the job.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

blueheels2 said:


> Oh yes it was live.


You made the right call, don't let the dinosaurs get to you. :thumbsup:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

blueheels2 said:


> ...He said my having a license meant I was qualified to drill them.


 I've seen way too many screwups by licensed, "qualified" guys to buy into that line of thinking.

Nobody is gonna keep you safe except for you. And a good rule of thumb is if you don't feel safe, you're probably not.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Drill into live 480 gear.....I would have told them to kiss my grits....license or no license.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

BuzzKill said:


> with proper cardboard stuffing inside I would have done it



Cardboard is on the official PPE list huh?


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

Like said on this forum in other live work threads. Changing out a switch or outlet live can be done safely. Even installing a new breaker can be done safely live. As electricians working hot safely is our thing. It's all about knowing our own limits and stopping just shy of them. Drilling into live 4000 amp 480 switch gear is just plain dumb. If its your ego or pride making you do things I remember this law. Pride and an empty sack is worth the sack.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

With almost 30 years in this business, and more than half of them in large industrial and power generation facilities. I can say I'm qualified to answer your question. Were you a *****, YES and you went home at the end of your shift. Good job, now spread that culture around. We don't need any more chest pounding men pushing their BS. I would have, and have done just what you did!


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I wouldn't drill into the top of anything live. 30 amp 110 volt disco, not a chance. Little metal bits flying all over?

I'd have said two words to whomever requested that.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

daveEM said:


> I wouldn't drill into the top of anything live. 30 amp 110 volt disco, not a chance. Little metal bits flying all over?
> 
> I'd have said two words to whomever requested that.


I cannot think of many easier ways to facilitate an Arc Flash event than to have those little bits of swarf flying around inside of energized equipment.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6p2kCiJZXI">YouTube Link</a>


That is always gut wrenching to watch


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## knowledge29 (Nov 6, 2010)

blueheels2 said:


> Was asked to drill four 1/2" ko;s in the tops of 4000 amp and 5000 amp gears. 277/480 volt service. Front of gear says that no safe ppe exists. I refused and their have been no repercussions other than I know some things were said behind my back. One guy did try to pressure me but I laughed and said my having a license meant I was too smart to drill the holes. He said my having a license meant I was qualified to drill them.


Amazes me how even the thought would occur to drill into a 4k amp service.let alone any live service. If the company cant schedule a shut down then obviously there is some serious problems going on within the company. You did the right thing. If repercussions do occur I would be making some calls.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

blueheels2 said:


> Was asked to drill four 1/2" ko;s in the tops of 4000 amp and 5000 amp gears. 277/480 volt service. Front of gear says that no safe ppe exists. I refused and their have been no repercussions other than I know some things were said behind my back. One guy did try to pressure me but I laughed and said my having a license meant I was too smart to drill the holes. He said my having a license meant I was qualified to drill them.



Having your license means you're qualified to understand and evaluate the risks. You did right. Stand your ground.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Drill into live 4000 or 5000 amp switch gear huh? I don't care what the voltage is.....it isn't happening. 

If I caught one of my guys doing it.....it would be grounds for immediate dismissal. Doesn't your company have a safety policy and does it permit hot work, especially when no safe PPE exists??


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

I agree, if your to scared you probably should have someone with a little more confidence in what their doing handle it.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

*smacks chest* just put a cup underneath to collect all the shards as you drill and GET IT DONE!

You made the right call. If you did it and got hurt everyone would think your an idiot. If you did it and everything went ok , you're still an idiot.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

union347sparky said:


> Cardboard is on the official PPE list huh?


...with all due respect, I think it is easier to do without all the ppe. The ppe lens fogs up, the gloves are bulky/cumbersome with limited agility, and the suit is hot and uncomfortable. With that said, if something happens, the suit is positively what you need


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

I'll admit. I used to be a chest pounder, not an arrogant one, just would do whatever it took with out being told. I was "that" guy. Age has been great for me to say the least. At least you have the brains "now" to think before you act. Carry on!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I really don't think it's a big deal. You can remove the top panel section and have the whole top 8" exposed without having live parts in front of you. If you've got a helper or second pair of hands it makes it even easier. I've even removed the entire top plate before to make holes and install connectors. I order shutdowns all the time but not for this. It might take me 30 minutes to put six 2" connectors in a gear section and give me 2 weeks of work out of it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

blueheels2 said:


> Was asked to drill four 1/2" ko;s in the tops of 4000 amp and 5000 amp gears. 277/480 volt service. Front of gear says that no safe ppe exists. I refused and their have been no repercussions other than I know some things were said behind my back. One guy did try to pressure me but I laughed and said my having a license meant I was too smart to drill the holes. He said my having a license meant I was qualified to drill them.


One of the longest few seconds in my career was watching the unibit fall into, and bounce off live  buss :no:

I come by my moniker honestly .....

~CS~


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

360max said:


> ...with all due respect, I think it is easier to do without all the ppe. The ppe lens fogs up, the gloves are bulky/cumbersome with limited agility, and the suit is hot and uncomfortable. With that said, if something happens, the suit is positively what you need


I agree with you on all of that. I hate the bloody suit. That's why I try to shut down as much as I can rather that wear that thing.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

There was a time when I was called out for asking for a new 1/2" drill bit when drilling hot bus bar. 
The good old days....


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The real answer here is having a lot of this switchgear engineered and designed for isolation shutdowns

But i know what arguing that point gets me.....


~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

I am constantly in amazement of these threads. I don't know how some of you guys get anything done. It makes me think that some people might have been better off becoming plumbers, electricity is too scary.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I am constantly in amazement of these threads. I don't know how some of you guys get anything done. It makes me think that some people might have been better off becoming plumbers, electricity is too scary.


Real chest beater.


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## ecelectric (Mar 27, 2009)

Is there a minimum approach distance ?


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> I am constantly in amazement of these threads. I don't know how some of you guys get anything done. It makes me think that some people might have been better off becoming plumbers, electricity is too scary.


It has become the rule instead of the exception, on most industrial sites, that failure to follow safety guidelines, like working hot, will earn you a free trip to the front gate. If you're trying to impress anybody with your I ain't skeered attitude, you can chalk up one more in the fail column.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I really don't think it's a big deal. You can remove the top panel section and have the whole top 8" exposed without having live parts in front of you. If you've got a helper or second pair of hands it makes it even easier. I've even removed the entire top plate before to make holes and install connectors. I order shutdowns all the time but not for this. It might take me 30 minutes to put six 2" connectors in a gear section and give me 2 weeks of work out of it.


This guy didn't think it was a big deal either, had done this dozens of times before. 

https://www.inkling.com/read/nfpa-7...2012/supplement-3/supplement-3-steve-and-dela


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

If you look at a lot of these incidents, you find that there was something unknown in the equipment that caused the problem, something you could never know about until it is too late. There have been cases where the previous worker has left tools in the equipment and your work caused the tool to fall across the live bus, or the previous worker did not put everything back together correctly and again something conductive falls on the live bus. In some of the cases, just the simple act of removing the cover to see what the danger might be, is what triggered the incident.

Why would you take the risk? 

Also if the facility can't stand a planned scheduled outage, what are they going to do when they have a long unplanned outage because of some incident that occurred as a result of live work?


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## Chase13 (Jan 14, 2014)

Aegis said:


> *smacks chest* just put a cup underneath to collect all the shards as you drill and GET IT DONE!
> 
> You made the right call. If you did it and got hurt everyone would think your an idiot. If you did it and everything went ok , you're still an idiot.


When I was in trade school my shop teacher did this on a 120/277 panel but he suited up and showed us the right way to do it. That was the longest few minute of my life


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I am constantly in amazement of these threads. I don't know how some of you guys get anything done. It makes me think that some people might have been better off becoming plumbers, electricity is too scary.


Ever run into those old smoke eaters who disliked scba EB?

:whistling2:

~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> Ever run into those old smoke eaters who disliked scba EB?
> 
> :whistling2:
> 
> ~CS~


I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear that I don't necessarily wear my FD ppe as often as I should either. 

I'm not a big believer of "just in case". I wear ppe when there is a definite possibility of a hazard. I don't wear ppe to mitigate the small possibility of there being an issue. That is my whole argument against the arc flash thing. The chances of something happening are so small that I don't feel it's worth worrying about. 

While doing hot work, if there is a good chance that I will come in contact with live parts I will wear gloves (ie. installing a bolt on breaker). If the chance of coming into contact with live parts is slim, (ie. taking off a panel cover, or terminating the load side of a breaker) I don't wear them. The same thing applies to the fire department. If I'm going into a building filled with smoke/fire obviously I'm wearing scba. However, if there is no smoke I'm not wearing the scba.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I feel as though I've heard that argument for a lot of high risk activities where the participants don't want to take safety precautions as they feel it takes up too much time.

I've seen guys I went to high school die with that mentality. Mechanics, rock climbers, electricians, and so on. I guess I just don't believe it's worth the risk to skip simple precautions to save time and I would never work for an employer that suggested I should cut corners on safety to save time.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear that I don't necessarily wear my FD ppe as often as I should either. I'm not a big believer of "just in case". I wear ppe when there is a definite possibility of a hazard. I don't wear ppe to mitigate the small possibility of there being an issue. That is my whole argument against the arc flash thing. The chances of something happening are so small that I don't feel it's worth worrying about. While doing hot work, if there is a good chance that I will come in contact with live parts I will wear gloves (ie. installing a bolt on breaker). If the chance of coming into contact with live parts is slim, (ie. taking off a panel cover, or terminating the load side of a breaker) I don't wear them. The same thing applies to the fire department. If I'm going into a building filled with smoke/fire obviously I'm wearing scba. However, if there is no smoke I'm not wearing the scba.


I don't think drilling over a hot buss is in the same category as opening the cover, or landing a wire on the breaker. I would ware me gloves and shield when bolting a breaker, but I like my hands and with this beautiful face, it would be a crime to mess it up.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

backstay said:


> I don't think drilling over a hot buss is in the same category as opening the cover, or landing a wire on the breaker. I would ware me gloves and shield when bolting a breaker, but I like my hands and with this beautiful face, it would be a crime to mess it up.


Drilling over a hot buss really isn't that big a deal. As was mentioned by someone else already, it can certainly be done safely. I've done it many times. Some cardboard and work carefully, no problem.


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> One of the longest few seconds in my career was watching the unibit fall into, and bounce off live  buss :no: I come by my moniker honestly ..... ~CS~


Ive heard of this happening to a few guys. Never seen it though.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

I made an idiot move and was spinning my keys on my finger as I came out the toilet into the washroom which was also the electrical room of a KFC and they flew off into an open bus duct, all 3 of us duct for cover as they bounced down the bottom.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Drilling over a hot buss really isn't that big a deal. As was mentioned by someone else already, it can certainly be done safely. I've done it many times. Some cardboard and work carefully, no problem.


Again. When was cardboard added to approved ppe? It's just one more thing to burn. Working over, around, and by hot buss that is over 480 volts or higher is just plain stupid. Especially drilling over it. A mechanic can change the muffler on my truck while it's running. With proper gloves and a wheel chock under my tire I could do it. However, you wouldn't catch a mechanic dumb enough to do so. My point just because you think you can do it is not a good enough reason to do so.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sparky402 said:


> Ive heard of this happening to a few guys. Never seen it though.


It's not a very good feeling Spark........


~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear that I don't necessarily wear my FD ppe as often as I should either.
> 
> I'm not a big believer of "just in case". I wear ppe when there is a definite possibility of a hazard. I don't wear ppe to mitigate the small possibility of there being an issue. That is my whole argument against the arc flash thing. The chances of something happening are so small that I don't feel it's worth worrying about.
> 
> While doing hot work, if there is a good chance that I will come in contact with live parts I will wear gloves (ie. installing a bolt on breaker). If the chance of coming into contact with live parts is slim, (ie. taking off a panel cover, or terminating the load side of a breaker) I don't wear them. The same thing applies to the fire department. If I'm going into a building filled with smoke/fire obviously I'm wearing scba. However, if there is no smoke I'm not wearing the scba.


I'm unforgivably evil for pickin' on you here EB

But i bring your FF service up as example here

You're in the _risk _biz, that's how crisis management rolls

We're_ not_, because we've the time to make _informed_ decisions on our actions

Big dif

The thing is, there's so many factions prostituting those choices we make into their back pocket, it just makes me sick.

~CS~


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

ecelectric said:


> Is there a minimum approach distance ?


330 inches.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I am constantly in amazement of these threads. I don't know how some of you guys get anything done. It makes me think that some people might have been better off becoming plumbers, *electricity is too scary.*




...most industrial sites require hot work permits/shut down permits with all the accompanying, signed paperwork. If safety protocol is not followed, you lose your job, and earn a fast escorted trip to the front gate.

Electricity is not scary, but must be respected.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

blueheels2 said:


> 330 inches.


 Just to clarify something, if the arc-flash study was done correctly, that means that a fault in that gear is capable of giving an uprotected person 2nd degree burns when they're standing 25 feet away. 

Is there even an acceptable level of PPE for the working distances on the sticker? I'm gonna guess not.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

The sticker says no safe ppe exists.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Each gear had 2 12x12 boxes with a 1/2 piece of emt run between them about 6 ft long. I used existing bolts for the top cover plates to strap the pipe. Pulled them out and put minis in them. Asshole who went back to knock the holes in the gear told the boss I used self tappers to mount the straps. I denied it and said what I did but I am pretty sure the boss believed him and not me. No way in hell the boss goes back and checks. Wouldn't surprise me if the guy didn't add a few straps himself anyway. I'm in a bad situation now and I must escape soon. Oh and here is the best part. WHen they went back to knock the holes he took a first year apprentice with him.


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## Expediter (Mar 12, 2014)

So this guy is in the habit of trying to kill someone then. Not willing to just kill himself, he wants to make sure someone else is going to get hurt too.


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

I was trained by the old "Cowboys" of the trade here where I live. If there is something I didn't feel comfortable with..I wouldn't ask my guys to do it..and now 20 years in the trade..and the Arc flash studies and such..if it says no safe ppe...I wouldn't drill nothing into that gear. I have put cardboard<still do it every now and again> into a panel to drill a hole. or a rubber mat. I haven't seen what your working on, I wouldn't drill holes into it. I might see if there is a safe way to take the top off it, and if there isn't we are coming in after hours to install these connectors.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

About 20 some years ago, a very experienced JM, was drilling thru the side plate on a CDP. ( 347/600 )
his bit was just a tad too long.
Threw him 25 feet, shut down a 25 story office tower for a day and a half, and I don't know how much dollar damage to the distribution.
He's still around, all his hair grew back, but his permanent twitch is evident.
Taking covers off, installing breakers when live, bit dangerous, but can be done safely.
Drilling into live gear, installing mounting hardware, not so safe.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

wcord said:


> ...
> Taking covers off, installing breakers when live, bit dangerous, but can be done safely.
> ...


That would require the you assume that everything inside the cover is as it should be. As I said in a previous post, many times, something inside was not done correctly or tools or other conductive objects were left in the equipment by the previous workers...that is an assumption that I am not willing to make.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

360max said:


> [/b]
> 
> ...most industrial sites require hot work permits/shut down permits with all the accompanying, signed paperwork. If safety protocol is not followed, you lose your job, and earn a fast escorted trip to the front gate.
> 
> Electricity is not scary, but must be respected.


And often not just the electrician is escorted off the job site...the contractor is too.


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## tweak (Oct 3, 2010)

I'd have told them to pound sand.


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## KennyW (Aug 31, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> The real answer here is having a lot of this switchgear engineered and designed for isolation shutdowns
> 
> But i know what arguing that point gets me.....
> 
> ...


Good point, I agree. Not that it's a solution to the issue at hand, but from an engineering perspective, something that big probably powers enough important stuff to justify a tie breaker.


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## Phatstax (Feb 16, 2014)

I have and still would do the work, provided I felt comfortable doing it in the situation. Are you a pansy for not doing it? No. You are safety conscious and that is a good thing. Would I allow a first year in the room with me while I do it, no. I don't want to be responsible for hurting the kid. I have been on many jobs that the safety mentality is " you're a journeyman...do it or I'll find someone else" and many where you win a free trip to the parking lot for working hot. My son is probably gonna follow me into this trade and I would not want him to do a lot of the stuff I have done, and I would hope he would have the courage to stand his ground and refuse as you did. Well done.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

The arc flash instance everyone likes to show on the you-tube video should come with an explanation.

What was wrong? A bucket needed to be changed out.

What happened? They locked out the WRONG breaker.

Why did the arc flash happen? Because the bucket they pulled was feeding a large, running motor. Breaking the stabs on the back of the bucket was no different from pulling a fuse under load.


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## Wirescraper (Nov 27, 2011)

Drilling into the top of a 480 panel with all the bits of "swarf" flying around is how I had my arc flash event. Had all the live parts covered in cardboard, basically one long strip of cardboard as a partition separating areas in panel, but......there was a small, maybe 1/8" gap at very top, where now-a-days i run a piece of tape. Went to grab my 3/4" Ideal carbide hole saw to discover I had left it with my other tools on another job that I was on. You see, this was going to be a quick 3-4 hour MUA changeout from a 208v unit to 480 at a Buffalo Wild Wings. Grabbed my unibit which I always have on me and started drilling my hole. The panel board was GE, You know the style, 480/277 panel.....and the goddamn lugs coming off the bussing at the top were spaced about 1/4" from the grounded tub, which is actually too close according to the code, I should sue the manufacturer really. Well ... shrapnel from my uni-bit landed between that 1/4" gap and BOOM...long day after that.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Wirescraper said:


> ...And the goddamn lugs coming off the bussing at the top were spaced about 1/4" from the grounded tub, which is actually too close according to the code, I should sue the manufacturer really. Well ... shrapnel from my uni-bit landed between that 1/4" gap and BOOM....


 I'm glad you're alright, but the problem in this case wasn't that the lugs were too close to the grounded tub and I'm hoping that's not the lesson you took away from this.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

The boss on an industrial job was drilling the top of one of the control cabinets, using cardboard, and a unibit, and some the metal shavings eventually damaged a PCB that was mounted on the door. Knocked out one of the large Rectifiers.


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

sWell you did ok just say no and if they fired you take them to court trust me youll win the case this is typical of trash electrical contractors who work but don't have a clue until the day someone gets killed . Next if they pick on you or make fun that's harassment so don't take any crap from them .
There going to pay attention after they go out of business or OSHA comes . 

Never work hot read the NFPA rules on lockout once a switchboard or panel is hot and even if you shut it off and know its off .

I think the rule states you must put on a hot suit after lock out and retest the ABC NABC and GRD to ABC plus your gear today must have a arch fault sticker to warn & instruct you . If the sticker is not on the gear you will not pass a electrical inspection . 

Don't listen to these idiots on line they never did a job that's inspected by a inspector and there post show it plus they don't or could not pass a OSHA inspection or never have been on a job that had one trust me :thumbsup:.

Id like someone to post the rule by the NFPA so we could see it !


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## Jarp Habib (May 18, 2014)

A friend and former coworker of my grounding & bonding instructor was in two consecutive arc events. In the first, his screwdriver slipped onto live live bus and the flash put him in the hospital for months with 3rd degree burns on his arm. Eventually he returned to work, light-duty "helping" for a while. His first day back on the job was with my instructor, who was voltage testing 480v switchgear in an ancient machine shop. My instructor turned aside from his test to help the guy move a trashcan and the gear blew up spontaneously. Near as anybody could figure out, it exploded because having the cover open altered the air flow enough to swirl existing metal shavings into the hot bus. If my instructor hadn't stepped aside when he did, he would have been toast.


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## JHarris42 (Mar 23, 2014)

Better to have someone talk smack behind your back than saying kind words at your funeral. I would have done the same thing. Not a pansy move at all.


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