# 3 children shocked in Florida pool



## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I'm totally with you. That pisses me off. One of those "eye for an eye" moments in my book. I hope and pray the kids were ok.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

How do you wire a pool pump so badly that it does that?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I liked the Newsletter that MH just sent out the other day. It was a good reminder of how quickly a poor job can kill.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

five.five-six said:


> How do you wire a pool pump so badly that it does that?


I was speculating cause as well. Pool pump, fault in pool light, regardless.. Something was not on a GFCI.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had 3 different inspectors look at our town pool in 2 decades of maintenance there

It's still a piece of  crap

When everyone does his job, and the obvious gets overlooked, the common term is systemic failure.

~CS~


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I wonder if the water was energized, or the handrail? Probably water, I can't think of a way the handrail would be.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Legacyelectric said:


> . Something was not on a GFCI.


Inasmuch as many items are _required_ to be, not everything _has_ to be Legacy

~CS~


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Inasmuch as many items are required to be, not everything has to be Legacy ~CS~


I have never done a pool.. Seems like pool contractors have their own electricians on staff... Or something... What does not have to be GFCI protected that COULD energize a pool?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Legacyelectric said:


> I wonder if the water was energized, or the handrail? Probably water, I can't think of a way the handrail would be.


people were shocked at different parts of the pool. So yes, water energized, hand rail grounded.

I want to say this:

Some people hate inspectors, but their job is to catch things like this. If I had made a mistake that could have caused something like this, I would be grateful to the inspector that called me on it. Regardless the cost.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I'd have to do my homework thoroughly before attempting a pool. But bet your ass I'd get it right.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Reading 680 now. Just because.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Legacyelectric said:


> I have never done a pool.. Seems like pool contractors have their own electricians on staff... Or something... What does not have to be GFCI protected that COULD energize a pool?


1st off, i'm sure you'd cross your T's and dot your I's Legacy

2nd _(and most important)_ when it comes to pool gfci's, be it motors , heaters, lights, etc. the _vintage_ of the install is always the issue

The GFCI requirements grew over time , and because some pools were actually pre-gfci, exist w/o any of it's protection at all

In my _not so_ humble opinion, they should have an annual sticker like fire alarms or ansul systems , with life safety requires updates

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

fwiw, i can recall Fred Hartwell informing me i was ludicrous in my desire to gfci a 3 ph pool motor about 5 code cycles or so ago....~CS~


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> 1st off, i'm sure you'd cross your T's and dot your I's Legacy 2nd (and most important) when it comes to pool gfci's, be it motors , heaters, lights, etc. the vintage of the install is always the issue The GFCI requirements grew over time , and because some pools were actually pre-gfci, exist w/o any of it's protection at all In my not so humble opinion, they should have an annual sticker like fire alarms or ansul systems , with life safety requires updates ~CS~


I was going to say ... Other than pre GFCI installations. 

Absolutely agree annual inspection. Maybe tied to HO insurance or liability insurance of public pools. Hate to advocate for bureaucracy... But like vehicle inspections I think this ones a good idea.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Fred Hartwell?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Ya know, that could easily be a PoCo corroded neutral nearby in the distribution. If the hand rails were grounded, the PoCo distribution could be finding a parallel path for current from the grounding system to the pool water. If that's a concrete pool (which it looks like it is to me) then that pool is probably a better ground than anything else around (other than maybe a substation if one's around).

IF (a big word) that is the issue, then no ground fault would be detected on the branch circuit wiring. So, it could be wired properly and still have this issue. I wonder if it has the equipotential grounding system?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Legacyelectric said:


> Fred Hartwell?


EC&M editor, CMP member, etc
http://www.hartwellelectrical.com/

~CS~


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

About that... Equipotential bonding... Is this so that the water in the pool from one end to the other maintains the same potential from end to end? And, if yes, is that to keep you from getting shocked while or if you're just floating in the middle of the pool if water is energized?


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Or am I totally ridiculously wrong. I may have seen "voltage gradient" and kind of ran with it.. Ha!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd say your point has merit Legacy, equipotential really being _bird on the wire_ theory....

That's been focused on as well through various code cycles 

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Legacyelectric said:


> About that... Equipotential bonding... Is this so that the water in the pool from one end to the other maintains the same potential from end to end? And, if yes, is that to keep you from getting shocked while or if you're just floating in the middle of the pool if water is energized?


 That's the idea, but the reality may be drastically different.

Water conducts well enough to kill us, but it's not a very good conductor otherwise, so when you're floating in it you're in a sea of resistors. If you put a voltage at one end of the water, you're gonna have voltage drop across the resistance of the water regardless of how good the bonding is around it. And if a persons body bridges enough of that voltage drop, they're gonna get shocked.

I think the best you can hope for from equipotential bonding is that it provides enough of a short-circuit at the fault to operate the breaker.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

So concrete pool with rebar, all bonded at every cross and joint, in theory is safer than a composite pool only bonded with the required 9" in contact with the water I would think. At least as far as swimming along and there being a potential difference from one arm to the other via only water contact. I actually would have assumed plastic pool liner was safer prior to this little code discussion/research. Not sure why.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I guess unless a metal halide fixture on an so whip falls square center of the pool anyway.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> 2nd _(and most important)_ when it comes to pool gfci's, be it motors , heaters, lights, etc. the _vintage_ of the install is always the issue
> 
> The GFCI requirements grew over time , and because some pools were actually pre-gfci, exist w/o any of it's protection at all
> 
> ~CS~


I remember, way back ( early 70s) seeing Ground Fault panels, which controlled a sub for the pool equipment. At the time, when the breaker or trip mechanism failed, the unit was supposed to go back to the manufacturer for rebuilding. Apparently, one could get the parts and illegally repair the panel in the field.
Failure was an option back then.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

What precautions were taken prior to GFCIs?


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Id have a belt driven pool pump, and candles.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Try... if you will... explaining the dangers of an incorrectly installed pool to a homeowner.

As electricians, I think most of us understand the true hazards but many, many, many homeowners don't want to fork over the electricians fee for installing it to code (even though a "code compliant install" won't guarantee you'll live).

It's not all that pretty on the inspectors side either.

Pete


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Next question, sorry so many!, what about salt water vs chlorine? Which is more conductive? And wouldn't MORE conductive be beneficial in this particular case?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Legacyelectric said:


> What precautions were taken prior to GFCIs?


Low voltage transformer isolated lights?


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Low voltage transformer isolated lights?


I think that should be code NOW. and GFCI protect the primary side of the transformer, just for good measure.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> EC&M editor, *CMP member*, etc
> http://www.hartwellelectrical.com/
> 
> ~CS~


CMP member? Me too, sounds like my kind of guy :thumbup:


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Low voltage transformer isolated lights?


I am going to drive a ground rod tomorrow and install a GFI breaker for a fiberglass pool with no ground other than a bond to the... hell, I don't know what but a solid #8 dives into the earth headed toward the pool from the equipment. The light on that pool is fiber optic, there is a MR16 in a housing off to the side and above grade with a fiber optic bundle that serves the pool fixture? lens? light? whatever, you turn it on and light comes out of it :thumbup:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Around here GFCI for pool light, don't need GFCI on the pool pump. Bond (#6CU) pool, all equipment, niches, deck..etc and bring it back to the ground lugs on the sub panel. 

Wonder why some places that's the rule and other places they drive a separate ground rod. We're not allowed to drive another rod or drop a plate here. 

Either way, hearing kids die from pool electrocution is *not acceptable*. It's not a fatality that should have a statistic.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I'll get a call to hook up a pool tomorrow... Never before but it'll happen... And I'll be freaked out the whole time! I'll probably end up there by myself doing it because no one will want to work with me.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

You have to be seriously negligent to energize a pool, or else it was just never installed properly to begin with. Don't sweat it.


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

I was being a tad dramatic. I got into this thread and realized I don't know crap about pools really. Hate that feeling.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Legacyelectric said:


> I'll get a call to hook up a pool tomorrow... Never before but it'll happen... And I'll be freaked out the whole time! I'll probably end up there by myself doing it because no one will want to work with me.


You can be pissed at me if you want but if you can't wire a pool maybe you should read about it in the code book AND other resources before you even get a job like that. Safety of a pool is no more important than any other job.:thumbsup:


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> You can be pissed at me if you want but if you can't wire a pool maybe you should read about it in the code book AND other resources before you even get a job like that. Safety of a pool is no more important than any other job.:thumbsup:


Not pissed! Couldn't possibly agree more! I realize safety of a pool is no more important than safety elsewhere... But it is very specific with pools, And I don't have any experience with them. I would probably schedule it a couple weeks out and learn all I could. Then I'd hire another EC that I'm friends with who does a lot of pools to come look it over prior to inspection. I'm not afraid of saying I don't know man!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Legacyelectric said:


> Not pissed! Couldn't possibly agree more! I realize safety of a pool is no more important than safety elsewhere... But it is very specific with pools, And I don't have any experience with them. I would probably schedule it a couple weeks out and learn all I could. Then I'd hire another EC that I'm friends with who does a lot of pools to come look it over prior to inspection. I'm not afraid of saying I don't know man!


I appreciate your honesty. We can't possibly know all aspects of the industry as individuals. I have wired a lot of pools and they ARE unique...but not so different as to be afraid to take on .:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> I appreciate your honesty. We can't possibly know all aspects of the industry as individuals. I have wired a lot of pools and they ARE unique...but not so different as to be afraid to take on .:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Well if I get one, I'm coming looking for you too on here. Thanks!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Legacyelectric said:


> I think that should be code NOW. and GFCI protect the primary side of the transformer, just for good measure.


Now there's a situation worthy of consideration that i've done myself.

_(Wired gfci protection for the primary of LV pool lighting)_

But what good does it do on the LV side.....?

~CS~


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## minichopper6hp (Apr 19, 2014)

We actually just had a service call at our regular customer.... community pool people were reporting getting shocked a little. Found the pool pump had been replaced by pool company a few months ago and the left the ground wire floating in the wind. Hacks.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)




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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Legacyelectric said:


> I have never done a pool.. Seems like pool contractors have their own electricians on staff... Or something... What does not have to be GFCI protected that COULD energize a pool?





I have found that to be a problem . 






Pete


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## Legacyelectric (Sep 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Now there's a situation worthy of consideration that i've done myself. (Wired gfci protection for the primary of LV pool lighting) But what good does it do on the LV side.....? ~CS~


Nothing. Far as I can figure. Unless we start getting into a whole bunch of hypothetical scenarios. Just seems right... Does it not? I would imagine 12v would be pretty inherently safe even if faulted into pool water. Is there a low voltage GFCI device?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

minichopper6hp said:


> We actually just had a service call at our regular customer.... community pool people were reporting getting shocked a little. Found the pool pump had been replaced by pool company a few months ago and the left the ground wire floating in the wind. Hacks.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk


Odds are you did not fix the problem.
If there is voltage on a system you cannot ground it away. The only thing a ground can do is give the current a path to trip the ocpd.


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## 8V71 (Dec 23, 2011)

Ultrafault said:


> Odds are you did not fix the problem.
> If there is voltage on a system you cannot ground it away. The only thing a ground can do is give the current a path to trip the ocpd.


Voltage induced onto the motor frame from the windings.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Legacyelectric said:


> Nothing. Far as I can figure. Unless we start getting into a whole bunch of hypothetical scenarios. Just seems right... Does it not? I would imagine 12v would be pretty inherently safe even if faulted into pool water. Is there a low voltage GFCI device?


Some may laugh at the thought of a 12V DC GFCI but...

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Legacyelectric said:


> What precautions were taken prior to GFCIs?


For one, the pool light(s) had to be 12 volts.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

five.five-six said:


> Some may laugh at the thought of a 12V DC GFCI but...
> 
> http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html



*Resistance is Futile*

:lol: :thumbsup:~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

As I said in anther thread, pools have to most code violations and in droves. The pool guys have little clue and the handy hacks that drop by latter have no clue. I don't bother swimming in pools for this reason.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

And our trade shoulders the blame....~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> And our trade shoulders the blame....~CS~


Sadly. I think every trade takes the fall when criags list starts trunk slammn.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Might as well stick both feet in then...

I've emailed our town rec director asking for an annual AHJ walkthrough of our town pool.

There's been over a dozen permits pulled , where various AHJ's over 3 decades have focused on particulars, but nothing of a _'general oversight'_ for wear & tear view.

Our current regime of AHJ's don't miss much, when they're on top of their game

wish me luck....

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

This was a conspiracy by the new world order to start the process of banning swimming pools.


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