# New house 15 or 20 amp circuits???



## McClary’s Electrical

titanium10k said:


> I am a JW and will be wiring my own home. Trying to figure out which way to go on receptacles and lights. 20 amp receptacle circuits or 15 amp. Which way would you go if this was your house. 15 amp sure is alot easier to trim out. I was thinking 15 amps for lights and 20 amp for receptacles keeping each receptacle circuit confined to each bedroom. I am not concerned with the cost for 20 amp. What is your opinion and thanks in advance.


 
It's yours. Wire however you want. I personally, would wire it the same as any other house.


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## backstay

If you start running #12 for lights , you will have box fill troubles in 3 & 4 ways.


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## frenchelectrican

titanium10k said:


> I am a JW and will be wiring my own home. Trying to figure out which way to go on receptacles and lights. 20 amp receptacle circuits or 15 amp. Which way would you go if this was your house. 15 amp sure is alot easier to trim out. I was thinking 15 amps for lights and 20 amp for receptacles keeping each receptacle circuit confined to each bedroom. I am not concerned with the cost for 20 amp. What is your opinion and thanks in advance.


 
Humm.,, I think it will be wise for you get someone who they know the stuff there due there are few code related issue you will smack into pretty fast if not pay attetion to it.

I know you say it your own home but as I mention above there are few codes you have to know so it will be a good time to read the code book and review it.

Bon Chance with your home.

Merci,
Marc


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## Meadow

Id do 15 amp on lights, 1 20amp circuit for outlets per room. Keep lights and plugs separate.

Since its your house, you could have every outlet on its own breaker:laughing: 

Being serious it never hurts to over do it, code is a minimum. Its there to protect and limit those who look for the cheapest design.

A D- is pacing in school but how far will that get you?


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## chicken steve

titanium10k said:


> I am a JW and will be wiring my own home. Trying to figure out which way to go on receptacles and lights. 20 amp receptacle circuits or 15 amp. Which way would you go if this was your house. 15 amp sure is alot easier to trim out. I was thinking 15 amps for lights and 20 amp for receptacles keeping each receptacle circuit confined to each bedroom. I am not concerned with the cost for 20 amp. What is your opinion and thanks in advance.


Assumimg you are referring to general use circuitry _only_, there are lots of trade offs to be had 

for instance isolating all lighting to #14 conductor compliments box fill _(as said)_, makes future diagnostics easier, and would ease retros to a genny sub panel & /or radio ra, etc

diversity in planning usually pays off imho

~CS~

PS, don't let the welcome wagon run you over .......


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## Teaspoon

titanium10k said:


> I am a JW and will be wiring my own home. Trying to figure out which way to go on receptacles and lights. 20 amp receptacle circuits or 15 amp. Which way would you go if this was your house. 15 amp sure is alot easier to trim out. I was thinking 15 amps for lights and 20 amp for receptacles keeping each receptacle circuit confined to each bedroom. I am not concerned with the cost for 20 amp. What is your opinion and thanks in advance.


It is a lot in matter of choice.
Personally I like to use 20amp circuits through out.


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## Dennis Alwon

So this is the respect you give a journeyman. Did you ever think that he may not ever do residential work and is asking opinions. Perhaps he knows that 20 amp is not necessary for recep in bedrooms but wants other opinions. 

Again I ask you guys to refrain from posting if all you have to offer is insults. It makes the forum look bad. Whatever mod allowed the thread it was their decision so let it go.


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## Amish Electrician

My first response was ... well ... not suitable for prime time. Heck, an apprentice on the job his first day already has ideas about how things should be done ....

But I'll try to be nice. 

Let's get the right answers by first asking the right questions. Your house ... how do YOU see the house? 

Personally, for convenience' sake, I'm biased in favor of giving each room its' own circuit.Might not save wire, but sure makes troubleshooting and load diversity easier. 

In general, I favor #12 wire, especially for the lights. If nothing else, it helps me tell the light boxes from the smoke alarm boxes. Alarms get the only #14 in the house.

Devices? Receptacles are of the 15-amp variety, except for the GFCI's. 20-amp GFCI's seem to have fewer quality issues. Switches are all at least 15-amp rated. Quality is 'commercial,' the lower-cost types with screw-down clamps/pressure plates - no back-stabs for me. Cover-plates are 'unbreakable nylon, and connectors are the expensive Wagos with the little levers.

I also like metal boxes with external connectors and mud plates.

Since I'm actually in the process of rewiring my own house, I'll also tell you I am partial to sub-panels. I have one for the kitchen, and one for the laundry/bath. If I ever add a garage, it will get a sub as well.


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## Briancraig81

If it were my personal house all my receptacles would be in #12 even bedroom circuits. Only #14 would be for lights and smoke detectors and it would be 2 circuits but that's because my house is only 5 room (living, kitchen, 2 bed 1 bath) and 900sq ft. It would be over kill but I'd be doing it how I wanted it done and I could play around like that. However, if your wiring a house for someone else and to make a profit, I would use #14 where I could.



Amish Electrician said:


> Since I'm actually in the process of rewiring my own house, I'll also tell you I am partial to sub-panels. I have one for the kitchen, and one for the laundry/bath. If I ever add a garage, it will get a sub as well.


That's very interesting. Just curious, why would you want/need a sub in your kitchen or laundry/bath? I can fully see why you would want one in the garage.


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## Dennis Alwon

Briancraig81 said:


> That's very interesting. Just curious, why would you want/need a sub in your kitchen or laundry/bath? I can fully see why you would want one in the garage.


He is not saying he wants a sub panel in the kitchen and bath but he has a sub for both. Can't have a panel in the bath room.

A bit overkill but to each his own.


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## cultch

I have always thought/wondered...if it was my house would I pipe it so I could change whatever, whenever..maybe pvc? Waste of time? I had a few houses where we pvc'd the data stuff since it's changing faster over the years...


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## mnelectrician

cultch said:


> I have always thought/wondered...if it was my house would I pipe it so I could change whatever, whenever..maybe pvc? Waste of time? I had a few houses where we pvc'd the data stuff since it's changing faster over the years...


Sometimes I run ENT to home offices and media centers in case they decide to change stuff later. Pretty cheap and quick to run.


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## titanium10k

Ok so did I post in the wrong forum or something? Nothing but a bunch of smart a** comments. I am getting ready to build a house and will be doing the wiring to save money. After completing my apprentiship I have been employed by an industrial contractor for the past 15 years. I work with drives, plc's, controls, TG's, 480 volt and MV equipment and feeders. I rarely do residential work unless I am helping someone with a house they may be wiring. 

My county I live in is on the 2008 code. I do know the code and which circuits need to be 20 amp-sm appl, laundry, bathroom and for 2008 arc fault in more than just the bedrooms. I only wanted an opinion as to what would you do if this was your house as for wire/circuit size. Is 20 amp wiring/breaker really safer for the lighting when that is connected to a 14/16 or smaller fixture wire? I was expecting professional responses as to why you would/would not do something. Apparently I was mistaken.

I have asked a few friends of mine who do this work and have had different opinions. I post to non electric forums all the time and I though well let me look up an electrician forum for this question. I googled and this site was the first to pop up. So I thought let me ask the question as they will definately be able to help me decide. My mistake.

On the industrial side I work with very professional people. We have many safety policies (NFPA 70E, lockout etc, hard hats, steel toed shoes) that we follow. I worked some commercial as an apprentice then went into industrial. Is this what the residential electrical side is like? A bunch of smart a** non safety, tennis shoes and shorts wearing to work a** holes. Moderators really you allow this.

Thank you to the ones who gave positive comments.


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## electricmanscott

Amish Electrician said:


> My first response was ... well ... not suitable for prime time. Heck, an apprentice on the job his first day already has ideas about how things should be done ....
> 
> But I'll try to be nice.
> 
> Let's get the right answers by first asking the right questions. Your house ... how do YOU see the house?
> 
> Personally, for convenience' sake, I'm biased in favor of giving each room its' own circuit.Might not save wire, but sure makes troubleshooting and load diversity easier.
> 
> In general, I favor #12 wire, especially for the lights. If nothing else, it helps me tell the light boxes from the smoke alarm boxes. Alarms get the only #14 in the house.
> 
> Devices? Receptacles are of the 15-amp variety, except for the GFCI's. 20-amp GFCI's seem to have fewer quality issues. Switches are all at least 15-amp rated. Quality is 'commercial,' the lower-cost types with screw-down clamps/pressure plates - no back-stabs for me. Cover-plates are 'unbreakable nylon, and connectors are the expensive Wagos with the little levers.
> 
> I also like metal boxes with external connectors and mud plates.
> 
> Since I'm actually in the process of rewiring my own house, I'll also tell you I am partial to sub-panels. I have one for the kitchen, and one for the laundry/bath. If I ever add a garage, it will get a sub as well.


Hey, Op, shhh this is between us only, don't waste your time or money with the above.


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## mbednarik

mnelectrician said:


> Sometimes I run ENT to home offices and media centers in case they decide to change stuff later. Pretty cheap and quick to run.


I ran some ENT in my house and it actually turned out to be very handy.


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## Dennis Alwon

I used to run all 12 many years ago. I now do the recep. in 12 and the lighting in 14. Why? I don't know-- I guess because I had to add circuits to bedrooms where people wanted a heater or converted into a home office with huge copiers etc. It really isn't necessary but I never liked code minimum.


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## Speedy Petey

titanium, I understand your frustration, but let's ease up on the insults. Most of those guy were attempting to have fun. Problem is it can easily get out of hand. Your comments about resi work, safety, sneakers, etc, are way off topic and uncalled for. Resi work can be just as challenging as any other type of commercial work, and sometimes even more difficult when a client is hovering over you. 

Anyway, no, we don't normally allow all that which is why it was removed. Please, if you have an issue with any posts just hit the report icon and we'll take care of it. 

I consider threads like this no different than a normally resi guy coming on and asking about a motor control or VFD.


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## chicken steve

Dennis Alwon said:


> I used to run all 12 many years ago. I now do the recep. in 12 and the lighting in 14. Why? I don't know-- I guess because I had to add circuits to bedrooms where people wanted a heater or converted into a home office with huge copiers etc. It really isn't necessary but I never liked code minimum.


I do the same, for numerous reasons

One, Because i'm rather rural, i've been involved in lots of of grid &/or grid tie sybtems

I've been asked a number of times to wire them _normally_, with the option of taking the lighting _directly _off a low v system

wiring exclusive circuitry _does_ have it's advantages....

~CS~


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## captkirk

Its not a bad idea to do your outlets in 12 but not really neccassary in a new house.. THink about it.. what are you gonna plug into a bed room..? a lamp, tv maybe a stereo..? If its a new house you shouldnt really need portable space heaters.. if you do someone didnt size you heating correctly. 

I think its more important that you have enough circuits in kitchen and such where your more apt to use heavier loads.


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## captkirk

DOnt worry about these clowns Titanium.... they get mad at almost anything someone asks here... 

If your not used to wiring homes it can bite you in the ass. Ask all the quesions you want..Eff all the haters.


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## Amish Electrician

I have become partial to the use of sub-panels as the result of additional circuits being required by code changes, as well as occupant convenience.

By the time you count the circuits serving a kitchen, it's pretty easy to have 8-12 of them. Maybe more, especially if it's an 'all electric' kitchen with lots of toys. That's enough to fill a small panel - and add quite a bit of clutter to the main panel. (Just try getting 42 circuits ot the top of a panel in a stud bay!)

Likewise, I really don't like making the occupant grope around in the basement when a bad toaster trips the SABC. I like the kitchen breakers to be near the kitchen.

A similar design issue arises with the bath / laundry, Have the water heater there, plus a whirlpool tub, electric floor heat, etc ... Mind you, in my place the laundry and the bath are next to each other.

It's fair to say that I would rather run one big wire the length of the house, rather than a multitude of small wires. It's the number of circuits serving an area that suggests the use of a sub-panel, rather than the amount of power required.

Please note that I said the subs would serve these areas - which is not quite the same as saying they would be IN these areas. In my case, the panels will actually be in the 48" wide hallway that shares a wall with them.

These are all design choices, and I do not claim the slightest code requirement for their use. The OP was asking a design question, as compared to the more common 'code requirement' type of question.


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## BBQ

Amish Electrician said:


> These are all design choices, and I do not claim the slightest code requirement for their use. The OP was asking a design question, as compared to the more common 'code requirement' type of question.


I think you have an extreme case of Tim Taylor syndrome.

_More power grunt grunt grunt._:jester:

Millions of homes prove that your extreme design is not needed.


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## captkirk

BBQ said:


> I think you have an extreme case of Tim Taylor syndrome.
> 
> _More power grunt grunt grunt._:jester:
> 
> Millions of homes prove that your extreme design is not needed.


 Or holmes on homes.. that guy over does everything...


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## captkirk

now that i think of it... I cant remember ever tripping a breaker in my house because of overload..


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## Amish Electrician

Hmm .... since the OP is used to thinking 'industrial,' rather than 'residential,' perhaps we should highlight some of the differences in the trade practices ....

First off, in residential cable (Romex) rules. You get to learn all about staples, Christmas trees, and firestopping your holes through the top plate. Keep the wires to the middle of the studs. Wires anywhere near the attic entrance, or in the crawl space, need protection; this is usually done by running boards along them. Something to remember as you run the wires.

Next, you're required to run neutrals to your switches. No more of this just running a switch leg from the ceiling box. The result of this is that the only practical way to do a lighting circuit is power -> switch -> switch -> switch -> light -> light. 

Watch your fixture count, or you'll overload the circuit. Identify your circuits, as it's very easy to have two different circuits in one multi-gang switch box.

Code really doesn't like MWBC's in houses; it wants two-pole breakers for them. Put the kitchen SABC's on an MWBC, and an overload in one will shut them both off.

Remember the AFCI requirements. This means the circuit serving the dining room will have to qualify as an SABC (not serving any area outside the kitchen/ dining area and be 20-amp) and have AFCI protection.

Remember to ground the incoming water line (where it comes in) as well as have a ground rod / Ufer / whatever. Ufers rule. Your service will also need an external point for grounding the phone, CATV, etc. stuff.

Your service mast needs to be anchored to the structure- not just the sheathing.

Don't forget the smoke alarms need an extra wire so they can communicate with each other.

You're required to have some manner of telephone jack. You'll want to allow for CATV / internet service.

Your furnace needs it's own circuit - even if it's just for the gas igniter. Indeed, most gas appliances ought to have a 120 receptacle to supply the igniters; no more pilot lights.

Attics and crawl spaces need lights, controlled from near the entrance. Probably need a receptacle too.

Any box 'outside' the building needs to be closed against vermin. This is a practical matter, and not a code requirement. I just weary of opening boxes in attics and finding a wasp nest, or opening a box in a crawl space and finding a spider looking back at me. They get in through those tiny holes ...

These are some points to remember.


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## oldtimer

If all your duplex receptacles are rated at 15 amp, why would you use a 20 amp breaker?

Would you install all 20 amp, T-Slot receptacles?


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## BBQ

captkirk said:


> now that i think of it... I cant remember ever tripping a breaker in my house because of overload..


So many old homes run just fine on the limited circuits they have.

As Big John said, unless you are using a 2KW alarm clock you should have no problem:laughing:


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## macmikeman

Bout a year ago I wired a house putting two kitchen outlets on one circuit (x 3 circuits). I didn't alternate each outlet, rather I just put 2 adjoining ones on a circuit, then 2 adjoining ones on the next etc. The lady plugs her toaster into one of them, then a coffee maker and a waffle iron into the next one. Trips on overload of course. I try to convince her it would be a good idea to shuffle it up a bit, but no... she wants to put those appliances into those spots and nowhere else. Stubborn. Yeah, that time I ate it and ran another circuit at my expense just to get her off my back, very uncommon. Started thinking the Canadian way of split wiring the individual outlets along the countertop maybe isn't such a bad idea after all after that one.


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## Frasbee

oldtimer said:


> If all your duplex receptacles are rated at 15 amp, why would you use a 20 amp breaker?
> 
> Would you install all 20 amp, T-Slot receptacles?


Look up 210.21(B)(3). "15 amp" rated receptacles are good up to a 20 amp circuit.


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## Amish Electrician

This thread is showing every sign of being a really good discussion ....:thumbsup:

The OP said 'his home.' Well, I described what I'm actually doing in my home, right now. Why settle for 'good enough?' I'd rather live a comfortable life. I'm not describing 'millions of homes.' I'm describing MY home.

Then again, America used to be a place where everyone strove for excellence. These days, folks seem to try to do as little as possible. Horatio Alger has been pushed aside by "Good Times."  Well, I wander ...

Millions of homes. Yup, I agree. My place is a fine example of what was 'state of the art tract home' in 1957. Why am I changing so much? Because our lives have changed so much.

To wit: The house originally had six circuits (two for the range). You can't do a home with just six circuits these days. 

Why 20 amp circuits and 15 amp receptacles? Well, code allows the use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits.

Why 20 amp circuits? Because so many of our appliances use 10 amps or better. Space heater, blow dryer, curling iron, microwave, etc. Because we have so many appliances that simply didn't exist in 1957: flat screen TV's, home computers, waterbeds (with their heaters), whirlpool tubs, steam carpet cleaners, etc. Plus, so many appliances are so much larger than what we had back then; just look at the refrigerator for an example.

Nowhere are these changes more aparrent than in the kitchen: ice makers, disposals, dishwashers, microwaves, convection ovens, Mr. Coffee, bread machines, deep fryers, pizza cookers, crock pots, large mixers. We've come a long way from hand-held mixers and two-slice toasters. Heck, it's been some time since I've seen a kitchen that did not have a radio, TV, and even computer terminal in it.


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## Big John

I think doing a dedicated 15A per room is going above and beyond already. What normal load is someone gonna plug into a bedroom that draws more than 15A? 

The only time I would consider it is if the house was likely gonna need space heaters or window ACs.

-John


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## captkirk

macmikeman said:


> Bout a year ago I wired a house putting two kitchen outlets on one circuit (x 3 circuits). I didn't alternate each outlet, rather I just put 2 adjoining ones on a circuit, then 2 adjoining ones on the next etc. The lady plugs her toaster into one of them, then a coffee maker and a waffle iron into the next one. Trips on overload of course. I try to convince her it would be a good idea to shuffle it up a bit, but no... she wants to put those appliances into those spots and nowhere else. Stubborn. Yeah, that time I ate it and ran another circuit at my expense just to get her off my back, very uncommon. Started thinking the Canadian way of split wiring the individual outlets along the countertop maybe isn't such a bad idea after all after that one.


 I do that now too. only i dont split it on the outlet. I just alternate the circuits on the countertop. But spliting the outlet is a good idea. 
It really becomes a problem when you do small kitchens that have limited counter space. People tend to put their appliances in pne or two spots.. Coffee maker next to the toaster and such. Then they call you after about a week in their new kichens telling you that the "box in the basement is broken"


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## chicken steve

oldtimer said:


> If all your duplex receptacles are rated at 15 amp, why would you use a 20 amp breaker?
> 
> Would you install all 20 amp, T-Slot receptacles?


they allow that _here_ Old Timer, not up your way

but your point is well taken, a device_ can_ become the weak link in the chain, not the fuse/breaker

~CS~


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## chicken steve

Big John said:


> I think doing a dedicated 15A per room is going above and beyond already. What normal load is someone gonna plug into a bedroom that draws more than 15A?
> 
> The only time I would consider it is if the house was likely gonna need space heaters or window ACs.
> 
> -John


so how do you figure the onwer(s) , or next owner(s) would or would not endure a heat wave / cold snap then?

~CS~


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## chicken steve

> Started thinking the Canadian way of split wiring the individual outlets along the countertop maybe isn't such a bad idea after all after that one.


perhaps not too _bad_ an idea

love to hear more on _this_ one 

Old Timer, gotcha _ears_ on there good bud...?

~CS~


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## Big John

chicken steve said:


> so how do you figure the onwer(s) , or next owner(s) would or would not endure a heat wave / cold snap then?


 If it's a new home, I assume it's properly insulated and has zoned heat and AC.

My point being: I don't think making everything 20 amp dedicated circuits make sense, even in a custom home. You design for realistic loads.

-John


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## BryanMD

Big John said:


> My point being: I don't think making everything 20 amp dedicated circuits make sense,
> even in a custom home. You design for *realistic loads*.


"Christmas morning... everything they ever owned plus the lights is plugged in somewhere,
in-laws and cousins staying over, cooking something 18 hours a day, and then... 
after the presents are opened they have 50% more load to add to that"


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## Big John

BryanMD said:


> "Christmas morning... everything they ever owned plus the lights is plugged in somewhere,
> in-laws and cousins staying over, cooking something 18 hours a day, and then...
> after the presents are opened they have 50% more load to add to that"


 What does having a heavily loaded service have to do with room receptacle loads? I stand by my position that it's an extremely rare that anyone is gonna have 15A of general-use receptacle loads per room. 

There are exceptions, like big entertainment centers, or outdoor lighting displays, things like that. But known loads should get dedicated circuits anyway.

-John


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## BryanMD

Big John said:


> I stand by my position that it's an extremely rare that anyone is gonna have 15A of general-use receptacle loads per room.


Agreed... no one is disputing it's a rare "perfect storm".
But when that storm does hit shore...
the author of that quote (and I) will bet that it happens on Christmas.


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## nrp3

Its nice to have 12 on all the circuits, but the only big reason I see to run 12 to bedrooms or living rooms are window airconditioners. Some of the apartments I work on had through the wall sleeves added afterwards and they just plug into a 15 amp circuit that feeds most of the living room and half the bedroom. Destroys circuit breakers and can burn the receptacles. Long home runs or maybe some heavy duty home theater stuff. Remember, a little here, a little more adds up quickly to the cost of a new house. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere. Better bath fans, maybe inline up in the attic, nicer plumbing fixtures etc, maybe some granite, whatever.

In the end its yours, running 12 certainly won't hurt.


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## chicken steve

ok, so let's be _greedy* _EC's about it then

 how many receptacles would you place on a 15 vs. a 20 A circuit, keeping in mind that AFCI is $38 a pop?

~CS~


_*(we're not really, heven forefend!, we just play that on the 'net you see, all fun & games, ...)_


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## electricmanscott

nrp3 said:


> Its nice to have 12 on all the circuits, but the only big reason I see to run 12 to bedrooms or living rooms are window airconditioners.


Which really doesn't matter anyway as pretty much every window a/c specs a dedicated circuit.


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## leland

I'll start with Sorry titanium.
But it really did sound like a DIY starter post.

If your building from scratch more is better,not necessarily bigger. (Meaning 20 A for all rec/ckts.) More and less filled 15A can be very economical and effective.

Plan your rooms,plan your loads. Bedrooms don't use that much,unless you have a person with medical needs.
I Like 20A for my Kitchen and dining light ckts. Big load with recessed and chandeliers,usually on the same ckt-More power more lights less ckts.

My Kitchens- I have always staggered the ckts. 2 gang box 2 ckts. makes perfect sence for Macs example.

If you like holiday lights- plenty of rec out front on no less than 2 -20A ckts.(this year I had a total of 25A for my lights) On a time clock or switch.

Each bath-1 20A ckt. Garage 1 20Ackt.
Leave a sleeve from basement to attic,even with a 2nd floor sub. this will allow for switching future lighting for that nice pool area you add later.

MWB ckts just need handle ties not 2 poles,so long home runs utilize the 3 wire.

Again Plan the rooms plan the expected loads.

I now understand your questions. I had 3 years in the trade before I touched a NM cable or drilled into a wood frame member, I also was all commercial industrial.


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## ilikepez

When we redid my house we did all 12 AWG copper and 20 amp breakers for the outlets and lights. But that was 1992. Nothing really cost a lot of money then. We have never had any problems running air conditioners, vacuums, or large power tools though.


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## McClary’s Electrical

I love the Amish electricians post. They read like comic strips


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## electricmanscott

mcclary's electrical said:


> I love the Amish electricians post. They read like comic strips


How dare you insult comic strip writers. :laughing:


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## Podagrower

My house, wired by me is all 12 wire, all 20 amp devices. #6 to the range, AC, and AHU. I will never recoup the additional cost, but that's how I wanted to do it. Box fill at 4 ways was a definite problem, and forced me to use 4 squares with extension rings at a couple of places.

My wife (and her whole family) always had night lights in every room. I installed a timeclock, and some cheap stair lights in all the rooms. Now they have those outlets with the built in night light.

I also installed a second timeclock that controls receptacles in the soffitt for christmas lights. I've only put up the lights twice in 7 years, but it is very handy.

The one thing I wish I had done would be installing ENT to the phone and cable locations. I thought I had it all covered with cat 5 and rg6, but it would be so much better if I could change the wires as needed.


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## Big John

Podagrower said:


> My house, wired by me is all 12 wire, all 20 amp devices....


 Why? I'm not trying to be an ass, I just honestly don't understand why you would invest in something like that? 

What is the advantage of having a 20A lighting circuit, unless of course it's loaded to the max to keep homeruns to a minimum?

-John


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## God man

I am a commercial industrial guy. So I have a question and comment. The question is I seen someone on here say you have to watch your circuits on lighting so you do not overload, the prints do not draw out the lighting circuits on residents prints? My comment is I just did a basement for a side job and was glad I ran two 15 amp circuits for the lighting, a bunch of high hats. The reason I say that is the 14 wire in those high hats was super easy to rough in, I could imagine that 12 would of been a pain!


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## crosport

If the code required #12 for receptacle or lighting circuits ,then I'm thinking some of you guys would say that's not good enough it's only to code minimum so then you would run #10.In this country we're allowed 12 outlets on a general 15 amp circuit.I've loaded mine to 8 outlets,for many years now and have never had problems or call backs.#12 is way overkill and a waste of resources I.M.H.O.


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## leland

"Why? I'm not trying to be an ass,"

Me neither. I bought my house, It came wired. It suits my needs. I am not gonna re-invent the wheel,Nor rewire my home. Thats '********'.

Yes I've added things,yes I have done it my way. 

But as far as my 'Base' house that was built in '87- no need to touch a thing except the added features.

(and the windows and doors- That I will hire a licensed and insured contractor for) Coz I wire- I aint no carpenter.:no::thumbup:


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## God man

crosport said:


> If the code required #12 for receptacle or lighting circuits ,then I'm thinking some of you guys would say that's not good enough it's only to code minimum so then you would run #10.In this country we're allowed 12 outlets on a general 15 amp circuit.I've loaded mine to 8 outlets,for many years now and have never had problems or call backs.#12 is way overkill and a waste of resources I.M.H.O.


In what country are you referring? If it is the United States do you have a code section?


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## crosport

God man said:


> In what country are you referring? If it is the United States do you have a code section?


 Canada Eh? We're allowed to rate each general use outlet at 1 amp per.Loading a 15 amp circuit at 80% gives you the maximum of 12 outlets per circuit.Canadian code rule # 8-304 (1)and (2)


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## bobelectric

Your home? You aren't going to wire to code min. Every room on their own 20 amp circuit,lighting seperate on 15 , Plenty of kitchen circuits,same for future basement finish and garage.Keep in mind office space, tv and computer stations, you've been there. And don't feed thru receptacles, splice and make tails.


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## BryanMD

bobelectric said:


> Your home? You aren't going to wire to code min.


the wire for the extra homeruns are a minor expense to indulge...
but the extra AFCI breaker for each of these extra circuits? maybe not.


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## OaklandElec

BryanMD said:


> the wire for the extra homeruns are a minor expense to indulge...
> but the extra AFCI breaker for each of these extra circuits? maybe not.


If it's my house, no afcis. Those things are crap.


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## BryanMD

OaklandElec said:


> If it's my house, no afcis. Those things are crap.


you get to build new houses without permits and inspections?
cool beans


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## OaklandElec

BryanMD said:


> you get to build new houses without permits and inspections?
> cool beans


Nah, pull em out after inspection.


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## chicken steve

BryanMD said:


> you get to build new houses without permits and inspections?
> cool beans


 
single family in Vt, _nothing_ required but a hammer ,or viable susbstitues such as rocks, and certain ice formations.....



oh and, no afci's in _my _place either

i figure my wiring's good enough to forgo fancy protection

~CS~


~CS~


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## Amish Electrician

I can relate to this comment:

" I bought my house, It came wired. It suits my needs. I am not gonna re-invent the wheel,Nor rewire my home. Thats '********'."

Yet, I've explained the extensive plans I have for my house. Why the difference?

Two main reasons: No ground wire and extensive damage to the existing electrical.

Some subsidiary reasons:
1) NO main disconnect, either inside the house or at the meter;
2) No laundry facilities;
3) No air conditioning;
4) The presence of some hack work;
5) Insurance company desire for new service; and,
6) Scope of the planned remodel.

Add them all up, and you might as well clear the slate and start over.

Material costs aside, it's just as easy to run a big wire as a small one, or two wires as one wire. It's all about serving the end user.

Which is why I labeled the panels at the Chinese buffet I wired in .... you guessed it ... Chinese. As well as English. I've even posted floor plans, with circuits added and areas served colored in. Sort of like cartoons, now that you mention it ... :thumbsup:


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## noarcflash

outlets should be 12ga only. wheather it's my house or someone else's house. A vacumme cleaner, or who know what else, hair dryer.

My wife just brought an electric fireplace, and this draws alot with the electric heater. 

lighting, it's nice to eliminate voltage drop, but not necessary.


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## backstay

noarcflash said:


> outlets should be 12ga only. wheather it's my house or someone else's house.


So where is that in the code? No one has answered the box fill question with using #12. Box sizes are made for #14. When you start running switch loops you know this if you look at the boxes.


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## noarcflash

I clearly said OUTLETS. meaning receptacles. not switch loops.
you can build your house to code, while I'll build my house 1 step above.


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## crosport

Mike Holmes strikes again!Why do it to code minimum when you can do it overkill?


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## BBQ

noarcflash said:


> I clearly said OUTLETS. meaning receptacles. not switch loops.
> you can build your house to code, while I'll build my house 1 step above.


And the extra money spent will gain you nothing other than being able to say you did it.:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve

seems a _dwelling code minimum_ thread is in order.....~CS~


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## DCAC

Lights only need to be 15A. Look at the need. One fan in the middle of the room w/ a light. As for the outlets, always 20A. Vaccums alone can pull 12 to 15Amps. Just make sure there dedicated circuits. bedroom outlets need to be arc fault. A CFL in a light on this circuit will trip the AFCI breaker.


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## Cletis

backstay said:


> So where is that in the code? No one has answered the box fill question with using #12. Box sizes are made for #14. When you start running switch loops you know this if you look at the boxes.


Agree. An ounce of prevention avoids a pound of cure.


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## Flintlockmt

N.E.C. basically advises which area's are required to be 15 and/or 20 amp branch circuits. Usually I install an individual 15 amp AFCI branch circuit for each bedroom. Then use the branch circuit from the smallest bedroom to control the smoke detectors. The bedroom branch circuit also controls the lighting in that specific bedroom. This way of wiring meets the code requirements. Lighting in the remainder of the house is usually on 15 amp circuits, depending on the lighting load. I then wire each room of the house on an individual branch circuit for ease of identity. Kitchen circuits are another matter. Base your wiring techniques on the size of the kitchen, and your specific needs. Keep in mind the Code required small appliance branch circuits.


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## Cletis

Flintlockmt said:


> N.E.C. basically advises which area's are required to be 15 and/or 20 amp branch circuits. Usually I *install an individual 15 amp AFCI branch circuit for each bedroom*. Then use the branch circuit from the smallest bedroom to control the smoke detectors. The bedroom branch circuit also controls the lighting in that specific bedroom. This way of wiring meets the code requirements. Lighting in the remainder of the house is usually on 15 amp circuits, depending on the lighting load. I then wire each room of the house on an individual branch circuit for ease of identity. Kitchen circuits are another matter. Base your wiring techniques on the size of the kitchen, and your specific needs. Keep in mind the Code required small appliance branch circuits.


I'd rather do 2 bedrooms on 1-20 amp afci circuit ? 

Just saying


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## Flintlockmt

!--20 amp AFCI circuit is fine, but I have, in the past experienced when that was done, the home owner decided to install 2 space heaters (1 each room) which then created a continuous fault. This was not due to improper wiring, but as a result of an improper heating system. Obviously, with 1 circuit, 2 rooms were affected.


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## Meadow

Flintlockmt said:


> !--20 amp AFCI circuit is fine, but I have, in the past experienced when that was done, the home owner decided to install 2 space heaters (1 each room) which then created a continuous fault. This was not due to improper wiring, but as a result of an improper heating system. Obviously, with 1 circuit, 2 rooms were affected.


Ive been called so many times to houses where people are tripping bedrooms because there are space heaters being used. I dont always think its from a poor heating system design there are some who know it saves money to heat only the bedrooms instead of the house.


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## Cletis

*Thk*



meadow said:


> Ive been called so many times to houses where people are tripping bedrooms because there are space heaters being used. I dont always think its from a poor heating system design there are some who know it saves money to heat only the bedrooms instead of the house.


There you go! Since everyone is going to run a space heater in each bedroom I propose for the 2014 NEC all bedrooms in dwellings also need a dedicated 20 amp cir. for that purpose for "Future Expansion"


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## 19kilosparky984

noarcflash said:


> outlets should be 12ga only. wheather it's my house or someone else's house. A vacumme cleaner, or who know what else, hair dryer.
> 
> My wife just brought an electric fireplace, and this draws alot with the electric heater.
> 
> lighting, it's nice to eliminate voltage drop, but not necessary.


Obviously you do zero residential work.


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## cpt_sparks

I started in resi. Now in commercial /industrial. I would have to say I prefer 20 amp commercial/spec grade switches and receptacles. Much better quality. I would definitely put one circuit per room. Much better for ease of labeling and identifying circuits. 
And it is possible if for example your furnace goes out (happened to me) that you would need to put space heaters in rooms. So I probably would put 20 amp circuits for recepts.


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## 19kilosparky984

cpt_sparks said:


> I started in resi. Now in commercial /industrial. I would have to say I prefer 20 amp commercial/spec grade switches and receptacles. Much better quality. I would definitely put one circuit per room. Much better for ease of labeling and identifying circuits.
> And it is possible if for example your furnace goes out (happened to me) that you would need to put space heaters in rooms. So I probably would put 20 amp circuits for recepts.


And if you tried bidding jobs with this attitude you would be out of business and on the streets.

Are you a contractor who bids residential construction?


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## Amish Electrician

Some of the 'business' assertions here are just not true. I've had a fair amount of work 'following after' the bare-minimum tract home guys, adding recept and switches to homes before they're ever occupied. 

It's worth noting that I'm not alone on these jobs; the new owners will typically have decorative painting and other design changes done before they move in.

There's a market out there.

I've done four custom homes - as contrasted to homes built on speculation by a developer or GC - and for each the only #14 was the smoke detector circuit. I didn't have any problems with box fill, either. 

Sure, there's a niche for the 'bare minimum' guys, but that's not what this thread is about. The OP is talking about HIS house.

In my property management work, I've noted an enormous difference in what the customer wants for HIS office and HIS home, as compared on the bare minimum he will insist is 'good enough' for his tenants.


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## noarcflash

If you explain to the customer, they will understand & want #12 for receptacles. It's a better job.

Also, #14 has voltage drop problems for vacummes, and other applicances.

And I will not argue this point, or comment any futher about bare a$$ code minimums.


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## asddsa

Greetings. Something I found that is useful:



> Relative to its accepted current limit, 12 gauge has less voltage drop. But 14 ga still is within the NEC standards of < 5% voltage drop.
> 
> You can use some algebra and solve for a maximum length based on a 6 volt drop.
> 
> 6 = (pLI)/A => Max length L = 6A/pI
> 
> Max length for 14 gauge @ 15 amps: 49.52 m => 162.4 ft
> Max length for 12 gauge @ 15 amps: 78.81 m => 258.5 ft
> Max length for 12 gauge @ 20 amps: 59.11 m => 193.9 ft
> 
> Note: these are based off pure copper resistivity, any impurity in the copper used in wiring would likely cause more resistance.


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