# Understanding the unbalanced load.



## k2x (May 20, 2008)

The other students in my iec class hate when i ask questions because they want to get out early so i thought I'd ask a few here. 

We learned that in a multi wire/ 3 wire/ two hots with a shared neutral , that if the loads are balanced on the A and B phase that there would be no current returning on the neutral. My question is that if I would open the neutral, say at the panel , would the two circuits still operate as if the neutral was connected?? Or , if there is no current on the neutral, what is on the neutral?? Thanks...


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## augie47 (May 4, 2009)

k2x said:


> The other students in my iec class hate when i ask questions because they want to get out early so i thought I'd ask a few here.
> 
> We learned that in a multi wire/ 3 wire/ two hots with a shared neutral , that if the loads are balanced on the A and B phase that there would be no current returning on the neutral. My question is that if I would open the neutral, say at the panel , would the two circuits still operate as if the neutral was connected?? Or , if there is no current on the neutral, what is on the neutral?? Thanks...


If you disconnected the neutral, the loads connected to the phase conductor would still operate as long as the current could find a path (from A to B, thru the loads or vice-versa). Unfortunately the loads would see a voltage based on the resistance of the respective loads. It is fairly common for this to occur with a loose or lost utility neutral. When the neutral is lost, unless the loads are totally equal, you will find high voltage on some, low on other. Usually the tell-tale fact is demonstrated by some lights getting bright and some dim.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Augie.:thumbsup:



> The other students in my iec class hate when i ask questions because they want to get out early so i thought I'd ask a few here.


It really drives me nuts when people have this attitude in an apprentice class. These apprentices always want to get out early and not take advantage of the oppurtunity to learn about the trade. These are the same guys that come back after failing the journeymans test and say "you never taught me the stuff on the test."

Chris


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## augie47 (May 4, 2009)

We like to fuss at each other and argue over obscure Code sections , but, IMHO, the bottom line on these forums is that they can be a great help to folks like k2x in supplementing his classes. I commend him for taking the time to come here and ask. Hopefully, there will be justice and he will excel over the less industrious classmates.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Click here to see a Powerpoint on what happens when you open the neutral of a multi-wire.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

When you remove the neutral you will have a 240v circuit if it's single phase 208 or 480 for three phase. depending on transformer hookup and supplied voltages. The phases are 180 degrees out of phase or 120 out for three phase. When the neutral is hooked up any unbalanced current will go thru the neutral. unbalanced 3 phase neutral will really hurt. As far as asking questions, that is the time to ask. Missing details early on will hurt in the long run. Someone once said
" He who asks a question is a fool for a minute, he doesn't is a fool for life".


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Screw the guys in class. Ask the questions. Let them leave if they want. I know you want to get along with the others, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I agree this forum can be an enhancement to your apprenticeship program. I wish I had a venue such as this when I did my apprenticeship. You will be fine. Be your own man. Ask! Ask! Ask!


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## alimaj (Jun 15, 2009)

I wish to express my happiness at the encouragement extended to k2x, this is the way it should be , and I endorse the sentiments.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Good question. The loads connected to the "hot" wires would be in series with one another across a 240 volt source. Bright and dim lights is a symptom.

Personally, I think saying the neutral is there to carry the "unbalance" of the loads is wrong when the circuit is a multiwire. In multiwire circuits, the neutral is there to serve as the circuit return for 120 volt loads.

Many 240 volt appliances include 120 volt loads such as timers, lights, and motors, but the 240 volt part (to my mind) is never unbalanced and never knows there is a neutral.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

.........


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> Personally, I think saying the neutral is there to carry the "unbalance" of the loads is wrong when the circuit is a multiwire. In multiwire circuits, the neutral is there to serve as the circuit return for 120 volt loads.


In a multiwire branch circuit the neutral does not carry the full load of each 120 volt leg. The neutral conductor only carrys the unbalanced current between the 2 ungrounded conductors.

For instance if phase 1 has a load of 10 amps and phase 2 has 8 amps the neutral conductor only has a current load of 2 amps.

To say the neutral conductor of a multiwire branch circuit does not carry the unbalanced current is wrong.

Chris


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't agree. The loads across a single phase, multiwire circuit are independent of each "leg" and don't even know each other exist. If the neutral is lost, then they do interact, but then it is no longer a multiwire circuit.


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## k2x (May 20, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Click here to see a Powerpoint on what happens when you open the neutral of a multi-wire.


Thanks for that link 480. I'll try to digest it over the next couple of days and get back to you. Thanks to the others too for responding.... Night shift tonight.. Gotta go...


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

waco said:


> I don't agree. The loads across a single phase, multiwire circuit are independent of each "leg" and don't even know each other exist. If the neutral is lost, then they do interact, but then it is no longer a multiwire circuit.


The laws of physics don't need you to agree. If what you are saying is true, then the current in the neutral would be the sum of the currents in each leg. In reality, this isn't so. The neutral carries the difference between the two loads, so some current from each load must travel through the other load.

There is no need to argue this when a test is easily done. I have done it many times for my apprentices. All you need is two 100 W lamps and a source of 240 V, and a clamp on ammeter.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

raider1 said:


> In a multiwire branch circuit the neutral does not carry the full load of each 120 volt leg. The neutral conductor only carrys the unbalanced current between the 2 ungrounded conductors.
> 
> For instance if phase 1 has a load of 10 amps and phase 2 has 8 amps the neutral conductor only has a current load of 2 amps.
> 
> ...


 
Waco has a skewed view of life, he is always right. Check any long post he is involved in and you see a man that can't see the truth for his ego.

Or is is a SH*T monger and like to stir things up.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Another way to describe what happens if the neutral is disconnected is the circuit goes from being a parallel circuit with the neutral connected, to a series circuit without the neutral connection. You would have to apply the rules of series circuits and parallel circuits to understand what happens when the neutral gets lifted.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Hey that reminds me of a service call I went to at a mall.
Who ever installed the parking lot lights ran 3- #6 in 1" conduit powered with three phase 600v. They then took them up the pole to three 347v ballasts then they fed each ballast with one phase and tied all the neutrals together and left them floating.
The mall claims they had been working like that for years.. Seems when the mall was built 600v ballasts very easy to come by. Not so much now..


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

brian john said:


> Waco has a skewed view of life, he is always right. *Check any long post he is involved in* and you see a man that can't see the truth for his ego.
> 
> Or is is a SH*T monger and like to stir things up.


He goes by his own book.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

p_logix said:


> He goes by his own book.


LOL:thumbsup:

Chris


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Waco has a skewed view of life, he is always right. Check any long post he is involved in and you see a man that can't see the truth for his ego.
> 
> Or is is a SH*T monger and like to stir things up.


I have probably forgotten more electronic and electrical theory than you have ever known, but, if insults are all you have left, feel free.

Fact is, my ego doesn't demand I be right at all and I'm completely at ease with the uncertainties of the trade and I still learn something new every day. But not about meggers and not about center tapped, single phase sources.

There is no such thing as an unbalance in the 120 volt loads of a single phase, 240 volt system. They don't even know one another exist.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

p_logix said:


> He goes by his own book.


Is there problem with the values on my book? You are aware that powers of ten are added when values are multiplied, so yes, 3Kw multiplied by 1 Kw is 3 Mw, or three times ten to the sixth. Got it? There will be a quiz.

You're funny.:laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> There is no such thing as an unbalance in the 120 volt loads of a single phase, 240 volt system. They don't even know one another exist.


Please, explain this in greater detail with supporting evidence.

Chris


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> The laws of physics don't need you to agree. If what you are saying is true, then the current in the neutral would be the sum of the currents in each leg. In reality, this isn't so. The neutral carries the difference between the two loads, so some current from each load must travel through the other load.
> 
> There is no need to argue this when a test is easily done. I have done it many times for my apprentices. All you need is two 100 W lamps and a source of 240 V, and a clamp on ammeter.


I doubt that you have since the test you describe would require some awfully sophisticated measurements. However, the current flow can be analyzed by realizing the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of phase and their current is never additive on the neutral leg.

I just read Chris' post and so I'll add this: There is no valid technical meaning for "unbalanced" in the context of a single phase, center tapped transformer source such as that which powers single phase services. It can be useful where a 240 volt load burdens one "leg" with 120 volt loads (such as motors and timers on stoves and dryers,) but that is not a multiwire branch circuit.

The best way to explain the center tapped sources used in residential services is to envision the secondary with a center tap at the extreme of one cycle excursion. One end of the winding will be fully positive and the other end will be fully negative and the center tap will be negatove with respect to the positive end and positive with respect to the negative end, but zero with respect to itself and ground. Use arrows to demonstrate current flow, negative to positive and notice that current cannot flow both ways on the neutral at the same time, so the neutral is serving as a return leg for half the transformer while the other half is using that half and not the neutral as a return path.

If that defines "unbalanced," then so be it, but to me, a 240 volt load across the secondary defines "balanced" and any 120 volt loads "tapped" at the secondary create an unbalance, but they are part of a three wire 240 volt circuit, not a multiwire 120 volt circuit.

Been a very long time since I taught this stuff, so excuse me if I don't get too excited about it.

But, I really don't care that much. The circuit theory of a center tapped transformer proved one of the most difficult for students to grasp, I guess because the center tap is positive with respect to one end while at the same time, negative with respect to the other end.

But, I really don't care. I'm somewhat surprised by the insults. Guess I mistook this for a board of professionals.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

waco said:


> Is there problem with the values on my book? You are aware that powers of ten are added when values are multiplied, so yes, 3Kw multiplied by 1 Kw is 3 Mw, or three times ten to the sixth. Got it? There will be a quiz.
> 
> You're funny.:laughing:





waco said:


> Is there problem with the values on my book?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

waco sure is sensitive. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

paul d. said:


> waco sure is sensitive. :laughing:


Call him want you want. I have monikers that are MINE!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

waco said:


> I have probably forgotten more electronic and electrical theory than you have ever known, but, if insults are all you have left, feel free.


I know you are very smart and INSULTS are all I have left.



> Fact is, my ego doesn't demand I be right at all and I'm completely at ease with the uncertainties of the trade and I still learn something new every day. But not about meggers and not about center tapped, single phase sources.


No your ego does not demand you be right, but in your own convulated way it drives you to stir the pot.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> It can be useful where a 240 volt load burdens one "leg" with 120 volt loads (such as motors and timers on stoves and dryers,) but that is not a multiwire branch circuit.


Actually it is, read the definition of branch circuit, multiwire in Article 100 of the NEC.

Any feeder that contains a neutral conductor is a multiwire circuit.

So the neutral conductor of a 240/120 volt service will only carry the unbalanced current between the two ungrounded conductors. 

Chris


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

waco said:


> I doubt that you have since the test you describe would require some awfully sophisticated measurements. However, the current flow can be analyzed by realizing the two "hot" legs are 180 degrees out of phase and their current is never additive on the neutral leg.



Do the test. Wire two 100 W lamps in series and connect the ends to 240 V. Then take a neutral and connect it to the center point. Clamp your ammeter around the neutral. If the two lamps are equal wattage, there will be zero current in the neutral. If you disconnect the neutral with the circuit energized, you will notice no change in the brightness of the lamps.

On the other hand, if you connect two lamps of different wattage like this, you will measure a current on the neutral that turns out to be the difference of the currents in the two hot legs. So if you had 3 amps on A, and 2 amps on B, then the neutral would carry 1 amp, which is exactly equal to the amount of UNBALANCED current from the two unequal loads.

Like I said, this is readily testable. We're not talking about something mysterious here. You can set up an experiment in five minutes on your work bench and prove it. You are arguing not with just men on this forum, but with fundamental laws of nature and over 100 years of PROVEN electrical theory. Do the experiment.



> But, I really don't care that much. The circuit theory of a center tapped transformer proved one of the most difficult for students to grasp, ...


No wonder they didn't get it. The guy teaching the class didn't get it either.


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

Waco, here's a quote from Miami Bob that you might like.

"We're not arguing. He's arguing. I'm just being right."


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

waco said:


> Is there problem with the values on my book? You are aware that powers of ten are added when values are multiplied, so yes, 3Kw multiplied by 1 Kw is 3 Mw, or three times ten to the sixth. Got it? There will be a quiz.
> 
> You're funny.:laughing:


And here is a fundamental flaw in your understanding of units and multipliers. I' not going to delve into the multiplier argument again, but I will say that if you multiply kW x kW, you will not get MW. You will not get anything even related to watts. The unit you will get would be in dimensions of "square ohms", whatever that is.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

More insults. The demonstration you use is for a 240 volt circuit with loads in series. Proves nothing relative to the theory involved, but I suppose it makes an impressive demonstration.

I realize the NEC defines multiwire circuits as stated. My point means to address a fine point in theory, one which many find confusing and one which the NEC has possibly confused as well.

The guy teaching the class was carefully supervised by the school administrators who were also marines, so I guess the guy teaching the class got it well enough.

If you would like, I will explain why your demonstration fails to make the point I think you wanted to make, but the key is in the definition of the terms. Point is, I don't really much care.

How we view the definitions doesn't change a thing about the theory and how we understand the theory doesn't change a thing about how it works.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

In theory,3 wire circuits are more efficient, more cost effective,as in using conduit as the ground path.With the evolving technolgy,such as G.F.I.s and Arc fault code requirements,I pull a 4wire or 2 separate runs.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

waco said:


> More insults. The demonstration you use is for a 240 volt circuit with loads in series. Proves nothing relative to the theory involved, but I suppose it makes an impressive demonstration.


Exactly. Which is precisely what a multiwire branch circuit is. The loads are in series across 240 V, but the center is wired to a neutral.
I've attached an image drawn by Stubbie.




> The guy teaching the class was carefully supervised by the school administrators who were also marines, so I guess the guy teaching the class got it well enough.


Oh, well, I guess I forgot that Marines wrote the book on electric circuits. The laws of nature are firm, unless a Marine says otherwise.



> If you would like, I will explain why your demonstration fails to make the point I think you wanted to make, but the key is in the definition of the terms. Point is, I don't really much care.


Well, if you can muster it, I'd love to hear it.



> How we view the definitions doesn't change a thing about the theory and how we understand the theory doesn't change a thing about how it works.


You're damn right on that one.


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## 5volts (Jan 11, 2008)

waco said:


> been a very long time since i taught this stuff, so excuse me if i don't get too excited about it.


 


waco said:


> the circuit theory of a center tapped transformer proved one of the most difficult for students to grasp......


..

...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

p_logix said:


> ..
> 
> ...


 
Careful posting photos like this: You'll get branded as a photo faker.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well read this all the way http://books.google.com/books?id=sx...suG9Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Careful posting photos like this: You'll get branded as a photo faker.


That image was taken from a episode i saw. It is real


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

Obviously, few here are prepared for conversational discussion. I should repeat, the theory was never in question. The definition was in question. Try as I will, I can't imagine any 120 volt residential loads being "balanced."

Yes, three wire circuits are more efficient, but there are far too many sensitive devices whose use is mandatory for us to keep using them.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

waco said:


> Obviously, few here are prepared for conversational discussion. I should repeat, the theory was never in question. The definition was in question. Try as I will, I can't imagine any 120 volt residential loads being "balanced."
> 
> Yes, three wire circuits are more efficient, but there are far too many sensitive devices whose use is mandatory for us to keep using them.


Now the tune has changed. Whereas before, there was no such thing at all as unbalanced current, now it is a matter of imagination.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

brian john said:


> That image was taken from a episode i saw. It is real


Are you sure? It may look real, and sound real, and even felt real.....









But are you sure it really is real?


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Now the tune has changed. Whereas before, there was no such thing at all as unbalanced current, now it is a matter of imagination.


Your perceptions are not my problem. I question the relevancy of "unbalanced loads" to single phase, residential users, although they are and always have been relevant to the PUCOs.

None of you have shown an example of a multiwire "balanced load" in residential use and obviously, none of you care to give it any thought.

I don't recall ever mentioning "imagination" in the discussion, but I did mention definition and now, the relevancy of that definition.

So, give me an example of a multiwire "balanced load" in residential use or STFU and just give it some thought.

Not my problem.

Nope, quite a bit of childish snickering, but nothing about "imagination" other than my not being able to "imagine" a "balanced" 120 volt load in residential service.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

You are a strange dude. Why are you arguing about the theory that the neutral carries the unbalanced current? You say that nobody has given an example of a multiwire balanced load. Well let's pretend that none exist, because I can't think of one, so therefore maybe there isn't one unles you intentionaly wire one as in the case of 2 100 watt bulbs as inphase277 mentioned. Well since there aren't any (let's say) then the neutral is always going to carry some current back on it. And it will never reach full ampacity as it can only carry the difference between the 2 (unbalanced) circuits.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

Unless one circuit is off and the other is at full load.

Never did believe in downsizing neutrals.. (they still do that?)
Last I heard most jobs now spec the main neutral get doubled up. (I think it's due to harmonics in electronic ballasts and stuff)


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Waco, nobody is saying that there is such a thing as a balanced load. It is exactly the opposite that we are talking about. Unbalanced loads cause the neutral to carry some current, but the amount of current in the neutral is the DIFFERENCE between the currents in the two hot legs. We are talking theory, and the theory says, and reality proves, that the neutral carries the unbalanced (that is, difference) current. Period. Do the test. Do the test. Do the test.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Toronto Sparky said:


> Unless one circuit is off and the other is at full load.
> 
> Never did believe in downsizing neutrals.. (they still do that?)
> Last I heard most jobs now spec the main neutral get doubled up. (I think it's due to harmonics in electronic ballasts and stuff)


Ballast are the least of the worries when it comes to harmonics. Having completed 100's of load studies on 480/277 strictly lighting panels I can say HARMONICS are the least of the issue s IN A LIGHTING PANEL. VFD;s. PCs, rectifiers yes.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

waco said:


> But, I really don't care. I'm somewhat surprised by the insults. Guess I mistook this for a board of professionals.


 Most of us are just electricians instead. Sorry for the confusion. :laughing:

Carry on...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> But, I really don't care. I'm somewhat surprised by the insults


Waco insults where thrown in your direction? What was stated are facts you are the type of guy that is most likely smart but arrogant and like to stir the sh*t. When you are wrong you ill never admit it. You will throw BS out at everyone then wonder in your own small minded way, why everyone (or some) think you are an arse.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

When I'm wrong, I will admit it. This discussion wasn't about right and wrong, it was about an oft used expression that has no real relevancy to anything we do in residential wiring. Apparently, the expression is near and ear to many of you, why I sure don't know and sure don't care.

So, let me know when you discover a "unbalanced" 120 volt, single phase load in a residence.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

waco said:


> When I'm wrong, I will admit it.


Of course you will. Never doubted it.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Unbalanced with what? If it's sharing a neutral with another 120 volt circuit then you bet it will be unalanced in comparison to the other circuit.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

I was on a job in a school working 3-11. I was working on fire alarm and 2 other guys were changing panel guts and it was after dark. All of a sudden the lights flashed like a camera flash. I was like what was that and the other guys said i don't know. I looked in this computer room and there was a fire at a surge suppressor, Like a dummy i ran in there and pulled it apart with linemans. I could hear the computers crackling. Turn's out someone years earlier who ran that circuit landed the mwc conductor's in one panel next to the one they were working on and landed the neutral in the panel they were working on. When they were lifting the neutrals. Bam 240 volt across the 2 hot's and that started the fire and blew about 20 computers. wasn't our guys fault took pictures and moved on.


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## sparky028 (Jul 30, 2009)

*Neutral Current*

All of these answers are very good. But can I just ask one question? Why exactly is the unbalanced load returning on the neutral. I am sure that it has everything to do with each "hot" being out of phase with one another. So no phase is fully + at the time of another. But I still feel unclear on the topic. I know what the neutral does, but not why it does it. Could someone please clear my head with as much detail as possible. Thanks


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## sparky028 (Jul 30, 2009)

landed the mwc conductor's in one panel 

Sorry, what is a mwc conductor? Thanks


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## sparky028 (Jul 30, 2009)

*single phase current on neutral conductor*

Hello, Waco

I just wanted to see if you can clarify my mind on your previous post. In a single phase system (residential for the most part). You mentioned that the current on the neutral conductor is always balanced no matter what. But what if some home owner used a 14/3 romex cable to feed 2 separate loads but put each hot wire of that cable on the same phase in the panel. My question is would the neural wire then be unbalanced? Thanks J


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

sparky028 said:


> Hello, Waco
> 
> I just wanted to see if you can clarify my mind on your previous post. In a single phase system (residential for the most part). You mentioned that the current on the neutral conductor is always balanced no matter what. But what if some home owner used a 14/3 romex cable to feed 2 separate loads but put each hot wire of that cable on the same phase in the panel. My question is would the neural wire then be unbalanced? Thanks J


The current in the neutral would be the sum of the current in each leg. On opposite phases, the currents are equal and opposite, so they cancel, and no current flows on the neutral. If they aren't equal, the difference flows on the neutral.


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## noexpert (Mar 2, 2009)

Please excuse a brief hijack here, but since someone brought it up ealier - could you direct me to info on harmonics? It is one of those areas I would like to understand better.
Thanks


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

noexpert said:


> Please excuse a brief hijack here, but since someone brought it up ealier - could you direct me to info on harmonics? It is one of those areas I would like to understand better.
> Thanks


Do a Google Search and any particular questions?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

noexpert said:


> Please excuse a brief hijack here, but since someone brought it up ealier - could you direct me to info on harmonics? It is one of those areas I would like to understand better.
> Thanks


http://lmgtfy.com/?q="harmonic+currents"


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## dogman (Apr 16, 2009)

Are 5 wire meter loops legal, 3 down to the top meter, 2 up to the consumers side.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

WTF are you talking about????!!


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## RTurgeon (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm a little confused by waco's interp of the neutral. I thought it carried the inbalance of current between the two phases. What is it's real purpose?


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## RTurgeon (Jul 8, 2009)

What's your explaination of the neutral conductor?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Neutral carries the difference of the current between the 2 seperate phases or coil ends of the transformer secondary. You need the neutral to reference 120volts.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Neutral carries the difference of the current between the 2 seperate phases or coil ends of the transformer secondary. You need the neutral to reference 120volts.


You can reference it to Ground.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Well ground is connected to neutral.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> Well ground is connected to neutral.


 
Same but different, hitting on a technicality.


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## dogman (Apr 16, 2009)

*dogman*

I work for a poco, we build 5 wire loops. Rural area, with alot of farms with outbuildings. I thought this would be a good site to ask this question. Sorry about stealing the thread, I could not figure out how to open a new thread. Thanks


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> Same but different, hitting on a technicality.


I never said they were the same. I explained what the neutral does and where it comes from. Don't worry Brian, I already know that your experience and expertise far outweighs mine. You are the man!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

steelersman said:


> I never said they were the same. I explained what the neutral does and where it comes from. Don't worry Brian, I already know that your experience and expertise far outweighs mine. You are the man!


 
I am just bustin you chops....:thumbup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> I am just bustin you chops....:thumbup:


Haha. I figured as much.


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## schunkm (Jan 7, 2021)

480sparky said:


> Click here to see a Powerpoint on what happens when you open the neutral of a multi-wire.


 HELLO! I come to you from the far away land of 2021... Was wondering if you still have this PowerPoint? I got a "404 Error"..... (they had those back in 2013, right?)


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## schunkm (Jan 7, 2021)

schunkm said:


> 2013


Whoops.... I mean 2009


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

480sparky said:


> Click here to see a Powerpoint on what happens when you open the neutral of a multi-wire.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Quickservice said:


> Ye PowerPoint is not working... may just be me and my old computer.


_*...or the fact that this thread is from 2009!!!*_


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

...


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

schunkm said:


> HELLO! I come to you from the far away land of 2021... Was wondering if you still have this PowerPoint? I got a "404 Error"..... (they had those back in 2013, right?)


480 hasn't posted here forever. They likely aren't listening to your plea.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

I wish I could lean to look at the dates and notice that a thread is ancient!!!


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Quickservice said:


> I wish I could lean to look at the dates and notice that a thread is ancient!!!


When I saw the post from 480, I was like...wait...doh!


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