# What does the code say?



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

There is a provision about installing in a neat manner, but that is very vague.



> 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment
> shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.


Most of the FA cable I have run has looked like crap too, but mainly because it was going above a drop ceiling. When I ran it in rooms that would have open ceilings, like electrical closets, I would pipe it in.


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks @HackWork I could understand that , but would you consider this good ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

That's actually fairly tame.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

I believe Art. 760 is what you are looking for.

Assuming your system is power limited:



> *760.130 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of
> the PLFA Power Source.* Fire alarm circuits on the load
> side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed
> using wiring methods and materials in accordance with
> ...


There is similar language for non-power limited.

This is just a sample. The rest of the article has more information.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

@Pau1004 - as noted, I think you're pretty much stuck, if the contracts were built around code minimums, that's what you get. 

I am just curious about code in other places, would code require something neater for fire alarm cabling in the UK?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

> *90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and Explanatory
> Material.*
> 
> *(A) Mandatory Rules.* Mandatory rules of this Code are
> ...


Note the use of this phrase means these methods are suggested but not required.



> *760.130 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of
> the PLFA Power Source.* Fire alarm circuits on the load
> side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed
> using wiring methods and materials in accordance with
> 760.130(A), (B), or a combination of (A) and (B).


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

In my experience companies that do alarm wiring only are the sloppiest cable installers.

Electricians usually do a neater job cabling.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Pau1004, the problem is that there is really no way to determine what is "right". Look at all the other white cables in your picture, are those better?

We usually run cables at right angles, we follow the walls of the building. Is that "right" or just the way we choose to do it? If someone comes in and runs a cable diagonally across a room on a 90 degree angle, is his work wrong? Or just what we think is ugly?


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Pau1004 said:


> Thanks @HackWork I could understand that , but would you consider this good ?


I would not have accepted it and refused to pay for crap like that. Get rid of the hacker and get a professional.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> I would not have accepted it and refused to pay for crap like that. Get rid of the hacker and get a professional.


Where are you located, and how far from the real world is it?


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

I live in the real world and have pride in my work. I am not a smart ass and you might be the one on drugs. What colour are the clouds in your world?
In the true north, strong and free, we can sleep at night knowing we are not going to be sued for sneezing outdoors or sillier things.
You have been Trumped.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> I live in the real world and have pride in my work. I am not a smart ass and you might be the one on drugs. What colour are the clouds in your world?
> In the true north, strong and free, we can sleep at night knowing we are not going to be sued for sneezing outdoors or sillier things.
> You have been Trumped.


:bangin:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Byte said:


> I live in the real world and have pride in my work. I am not a smart ass and you might be the one on drugs. What colour are the clouds in your world?
> In the true north, strong and free, we can sleep at night knowing we are not going to be sued for sneezing outdoors or sillier things.
> You have been Trumped.


Yes, because less than 24 hours ago, the courts were completely functional.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I am starting to think this byte guy is our newest Downs Syndrome charity case, filling in for Essex. He keeps ruining threads with stupid, inaccurate, and asinine posts.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Actually if USA paid $15 Trillion, you could have Canada and take over our jobs. You get to work and we get to retire.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Byte said:


> Actually if USA paid $15 Trillion, you could have Canada and take over our jobs. You get to work and we get to retire.


I'm not sure which is more sad: knowing you could sell your country, or knowing exactly how much money it would take to do it.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

I don't care about any country. A country is run by idiots who tell us what to do. Would rather be retired. Wouldn't you?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm not sure which is more sad: knowing you could sell your country, or knowing exactly how much money it would take to do it.


 I'll take C. Ruining a code thread with political garbage and complaints about Trump from a troll.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Byte said:


> I don't care about any country. A country is run by idiots who tell us what to do. Would rather be retired. Wouldn't you?


A country isn't defined by the jagoffs that run it. It's defined by the ideals and beliefs of you and your neighbors. Boy, Obama and Trudeau have you up to your eyeballs in horsechit. Speedy Deletey will clean this mess up pronto.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Who is Speedy Deletey?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Byte said:


> Who is Speedy Deletey?




Act butthurt by what Hack said and you'll see. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Back to the topic at hand: for interest's sake, I will just say that in Canada all fire alarm wiring in a non-combustible building must be either armoured cable or in conduit. Period. And before anyone jumps on me, I know this is the NEC thread. Just posting for perspective.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Barjack said:


> Act butthurt by what Hack said and you'll see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, I was imitating the Hack and how he rubs everyone.
I apologize and love my country


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> Sorry, I was imitating the Hack and how he rubs everyone.


No, only people like you and your boyfriend who told you to do that :thumbup:


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Hackwork, you are the best and greatest in my mind. Have a great weekend


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> Hackwork, you are the best and greatest in my mind.


It's not just you :thumbsup:


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

splatz said:


> @*Pau1004* - as noted, I think you're pretty much stuck, if the contracts were built around code minimums, that's what you get.
> 
> I am just curious about code in other places, would code require something neater for fire alarm cabling in the UK?


Well, In the U. K. the Fire protection is taken very seriously so the code is even more strict. As the standards recognise the Fire alarm system as an emergency system all cabling must be separated and protected from other conductors so either a separate cable tray or conduit.


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

I just feel it's the worse install I have ever seen. I always took pride in my work and thought every job as a showroom for my next customer.. @HackWork the cables next to those are not good either but man, we have paid 50k for a very poor job.. Look at this and tell me it is actually normal


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

Barjack said:


> I believe Art. 760 is what you are looking for.
> 
> Assuming your system is power limited:
> 
> ...



Thanks for that !


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

Byte said:


> I would not have accepted it and refused to pay for crap like that. Get rid of the hacker and get a professional.



Too late, This happened last year and I am left with the breadcrumbs.


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## QMED (Sep 14, 2016)

Looks like ****.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Coming from the top it should look like this:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Byte said:


> Coming from the top it should look like this:


Yeah, because drip loops are really necessary inside of a building. 

Are you even an electrician?

Tell us again how 3 foot ladders are banned in all of Canada.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Oops, I thought it was outside.
Are you?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

All I can say, is maybe you can catch them on their crummy install is a spec put in place for the type of cable to use, or a spec for the install. Was this contracted out through an engineering firm? Or was it just through a private installer direct? Just trying to figure how this crummy install came about. We do a bunch of work with simplex, and usually contract each other out for different scenarios. Most of the time each has specs on the execution of work. Need more information for what exactly went wrong.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

At that height, the only thing likely to damage the cable is a fire, so you don't really have much to worry about. 

But you shouldn't be surprised. This is what you get from the lowest bidder.


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## Pau1004 (Jan 20, 2017)

Cl906um said:


> All I can say, is maybe you can catch them on their crummy install is a spec put in place for the type of cable to use, or a spec for the install. Was this contracted out through an engineering firm? Or was it just through a private installer direct? Just trying to figure how this crummy install came about. We do a bunch of work with simplex, and usually contract each other out for different scenarios. Most of the time each has specs on the execution of work. Need more information for what exactly went wrong.



That's the thing, we never go for the lowest bidder, we usually do a screening process when deciding who to use. We are very limited with regards to the selection of contractors and they were one of the three in the Waterloo area. Said that, There never was a scope of work and the person who requested this install (a safety manager) did his best to describe what was needed and we relied on the contractor to put forward the best quote to meet our needs. Said that if they said the cost would be 30k to include conduit and cable trays all over the place we would have agreed to pay.


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## Byte (Oct 3, 2016)

Cl906um said:


> All I can say, is maybe you can catch them on their crummy install is a spec put in place for the type of cable to use, or a spec for the install. Was this contracted out through an engineering firm? Or was it just through a private installer direct? Just trying to figure how this crummy install came about. We do a bunch of work with simplex, and usually contract each other out for different scenarios. Most of the time each has specs on the execution of work. Need more information for what exactly went wrong.


I agree. Up north in the oilsands everything is a spec. There are thick diagrams and instructions from how high a JB has to be, the size of the lamicoids, to how to wrap HT on a valve. I cannot imagine a job without specs.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Pau1004 said:


> Said that if they said the cost would be 30k to include conduit and cable trays all over the place we would have agreed to pay.


Well it's certainly not too late to fix it now if you want to. 

If (big if) it's really $30K to make it fully perfect in conduit now, it could probably be made much better, for much less.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Pau1004 said:


> I just feel it's the worse install I have ever seen. I always took pride in my work and thought every job as a showroom for my next customer.. @HackWork the cables next to those are not good either but man, we have paid 50k for a very poor job.. Look at this and tell me it is actually normal


I would not accept that if I was any type of management. Spec or not that is a **** install.


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## Corysan (Jan 20, 2017)

1. It looks like the cable is installed in a food processing plant of some sort. Judging from the ceramic faced block and FRP, some of the cable is installed in a wash down area. I very much doubt the FA cable is UL listed for wet locations and for contact with caustic chemicals used for washing down. The plastic cap on the EMT would definitely allow ingress of water, etc. 

2. A block wall is typically a fire rated wall, although I didn't see any firestopping around the mechanical penetrations. Regardless, I would still drill the wall and firestop a sleeved penetration to avoid cable abrasion (and potentially being pinched by a moving pipe). (Sorry, by firestopping I mean caulking or puttying with a UL listed intumescent compound to prevent smoke migration. Not sure what everyone else calls it.)

3. Everyone has different standards as to what is "neat and workmanlike", but I haven't met anyone who thinks "neat and workmanlike" means you can secure a cable beyond it's code required maximum distances. All three photos show the cable unsupported for well over four feet. Also, it is loose at some points and piano-wire tight at others. I have a customer with significant fire alarm system problems due to tight wiring that has faulted due to building movement- it's a school...

4. I apologize for this unsightly view of American slap-dasherry. Mostly, we do significantly better than this.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I would definitely never run open wiring in a mechanical room.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Corysan said:


> 1. It looks like the cable is installed in a food processing plant of some sort. Judging from the ceramic faced block and FRP, some of the cable is installed in a wash down area. I very much doubt the FA cable is UL listed for wet locations and for contact with caustic chemicals used for washing down. The plastic cap on the EMT would definitely allow ingress of water, etc.
> 
> 2. A block wall is typically a fire rated wall, although I didn't see any firestopping around the mechanical penetrations. Regardless, I would still drill the wall and firestop a sleeved penetration to avoid cable abrasion (and potentially being pinched by a moving pipe). (Sorry, by firestopping I mean caulking or puttying with a UL listed intumescent compound to prevent smoke migration. Not sure what everyone else calls it.)
> 
> ...


I agree. You should look up the ul listing, and install instructions of the cable. I think supporting open cabling every four feet is pretty much the standard.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Cl906um said:


> I would definitely never run open wiring in a mechanical room.


Yeah that's just a horsesh!t install.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Corysan said:


> .
> 4. I apologize for this unsightly view of American slap-dasherry. Mostly, we do significantly better than this.


Rule #2, never apologize for something you didn't do, it's a sign of weakness!


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## Corysan (Jan 20, 2017)

@MechanicalDVR,

Thanks for the welcome to the forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking responsibility for the poor installation of another person. I have worked enough with tradesman and engineers from several different countries to get the understanding that they think us to be largely careless, poorly skilled, and very low on the intelligence scale. I have also worked with "craptacular" semi-skilled tradesman that justify that perception. One of the first catch phrases I learned as an apprentice was "good 'nuff". 

I don't want to go on a tangent that should be reserved for another thread, but if we can harness the "git er done" spirit and combine it with practically useful engineering and attention to detail (i.e. quality), we could easily outpace every other developed country- even with the past trade handicaps. Somewhere along the line we laid aside the old-world craftsmanship inherited from our European ancestors in favor of getting it done cheaply. I'm no Europhile, but this kind of embarrasses the &@!! out of me. I guess I appreciate this country too much just to let it pass without comment. I do get your point, though.

Give me time and I'll get the hang of the various protocols here.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Corysan said:


> @MechanicalDVR,
> 
> Thanks for the welcome to the forum.
> 
> ...


You're welcome!

For me those ancestors were my grandparents that immigrated here so that craftsmanship isn't lost in the blood line with me. I take pride in anything I do and hate 'short cuts' that cheapen the final result.

You'll do fine here, I have a good feeling. 

Take some of my comments with a grain of salt I'm old and get cranky at times. :thumbsup:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Pau1004 said:


> That's the thing, we never go for the lowest bidder, we usually do a screening process when deciding who to use. We are very limited with regards to the selection of contractors and they were one of the three in the Waterloo area. Said that, There never was a scope of work and the person who requested this install (a safety manager) did his best to describe what was needed and we relied on the contractor to put forward the best quote to meet our needs. Said that if they said the cost would be 30k to include conduit and cable trays all over the place we would have agreed to pay.


Wait, you had a $50,000 job with no scope of work? You got what you deserve there! On a side note, any work coming up for bids?


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