# Touch-plate system?



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> Is anybody familiar with the touch-plate control system..?The one I am trouble shooting is very old and some relays are stuck and some just don't work... What are the alternatives besides rewiring the house..I want to re-use the low voltage control wires going to switches..any brands that you guys know of?
> View attachment 61697


Oh Man those suck!:no:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Touch plate is still available. About 10 or 12 years ago I worked on a system. It was a mess and difficult to work with. I was able to get parts..

http://touchplate.com/


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> Is anybody familiar with the touch-plate control system..?The one I am trouble shooting is very old and some relays are stuck and some just don't work... What are the alternatives besides rewiring the house..I want to re-use the low voltage control wires going to switches..any brands that you guys know of?
> View attachment 61697


Take a look *here*.....


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Contact TouchPlate, if you can't troubleshoot it yourself, they will give you a number of one of their guys. I had a huge system once that was a PIA. Called their guy and took a commission.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

There is a STRONG tendency for DIY 'repairs' to take the form of over loading the coils.

Roasting the coils is THE number one fault.

The OTHER primary fault is STICKY Touch Plates. Yes, they don't last forever.
*
Your best bet -- right off is to map the circuit and to attend to any sticking Touch Plate. *

Even ONE sticky plate will 'freeze' the action.

DIYers immediately take such stuck LV lines and hop them over to another coil -- overloading it.

Expect to find a lot of jumpered // re-jumpered LV lines.

Frustration will also cause the HO to pound on the LV contacts until they break.

As linked above, parts are still available.
The field wiring is ageless. It's the contacts that are going.

Since these are not available at Big Box Hardware -- you see the DIY result.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> There is a STRONG tendency for DIY 'repairs' to take the form of over loading the coils. Roasting the coils is THE number one fault. The OTHER primary fault is STICKY Touch Plates. Yes, they don't last forever. Your best bet -- right off is to map the circuit and to attend to any sticking Touch Plate. Even ONE sticky plate will 'freeze' the action. DIYers immediately take such stuck LV lines and hop them over to another coil -- overloading it. Expect to find a lot of jumpered // re-jumpered LV lines. Frustration will also cause the HO to pound on the LV contacts until they break. As linked above, parts are still available. The field wiring is ageless. It's the contacts that are going. Since these are not available at Big Box Hardware -- you see the DIY result.


 Do you think replacing pad and relays is the best option?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> There is a STRONG tendency for DIY 'repairs' to take the form of over loading the coils. Roasting the coils is THE number one fault. The OTHER primary fault is STICKY Touch Plates. Yes, they don't last forever. Your best bet -- right off is to map the circuit and to attend to any sticking Touch Plate. Even ONE sticky plate will 'freeze' the action. DIYers immediately take such stuck LV lines and hop them over to another coil -- overloading it. Expect to find a lot of jumpered // re-jumpered LV lines. Frustration will also cause the HO to pound on the LV contacts until they break. As linked above, parts are still available. The field wiring is ageless. It's the contacts that are going. Since these are not available at Big Box Hardware -- you see the DIY result.


 One light is stuck on..can that be the problem?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Elephante said:


> One light is stuck on..can that be the problem?


Relay contacts frozen or the switch is telling it to go on. Take the coil wire off and see if the contacts open.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Elephante said:


> One light is stuck on..can that be the problem?


A 'stuck' ON light indicates that the circuit is being pumped with energy.

This indicator is only seen at a LV control station// panel.

It may mean pure trouble -- or a circuit that is merely 'On.'

%%%%%

Start with a nose test and ID the ruined coils. The system was designed to PULSE energy not to leave the coils in continuous contact. When they stay energized -- they ultimately roast.

De-energize the full voltage lighting circuits... plus the circuit that is powering the transformer that is energizing the coils. ( These are all LV solenoid style, mechanically latched coils. They change state when they are pulsed -- smaller versions of the very common mechanically held lighting contactors known and loved by us all.)
*
eg: { Sq D: Type LX Lighting Contactors }
*

With a DEAD system, systematically test each and every common Touch Plate to see if it has 'mechanical' problems -- ie whether it STICKS in the closed position. Every Touch Plate is a N/O contact that is supposed to momentarily close to send a signal to the coil back at the control box. - Which you have so well photographed.

You don't want ANY of these Touch Plates sticking. If you can't correct them by cleaning// solvents -- they must be replaced by new Touch Plates. These are not brutally expensive -- and obviously ultra cheap to manufacture. ( Made in USA, BTW. ) 

Once they are 'clear' you can tackle the logical layout -- which is SURE to have been scrambled by the DIY// handy man crowd.

Replacement coils and transformers are also available. Again, NOT expensive at all compared to Lutron, et. al.

You should expect to find dead bulbs ( 6 VDC IIRC at the master control panel ) lots and lots of dead bulbs. So -- even right now you haven't a clue as to what circuit is being energized.

You need those bulbs to be ALL good. They are pretty cheap. You can get them through Touch Plate -- or from most lamp distributors -- including via the Internet.

You should also expect to find legends at the control panel -- which will start to make a whole lot of sense once you unscramble what the bozos have done.

It would hugely help if you had a toner and wand.

Even so, expect to find a multi-wire harness that has been roped all over -- from the Touch Plates to the master control box. You'll have one common that is pulsed over to activate a given specific coil. To dope it out you must map the colors to the Touch Plates and the coils.

Your photographed system is a SIMPLE puppy compared to what's out there. It looks like only one harness was roped. Hence each color in the harness/ cable goes to a specific coil.

You can figure out by jumpering which lights are driven by which coils. If the system was totally corrupted, this may be necessary. You are free to shift the line voltage switch legs around to suit. -- Just another reason to save the Touch Plate system.

Once you know what's going on with the color map and the coil to switch leg map -- you can untangle any Touch Plate system.

As technology -- there is NOTHING wrong with Touch Plate. It's suffering from OLD AGE. The typical system is usually at least 40 years old !

Because of color shift, you may find that it's entirely worthwhile to replace ALL of the old Touch Plate contact switches -- ALL of the indicator lamps -- they are dirt cheap -- and all co-located -- and much else. Leave the field wiring in place.

The materials discussed are not at all expensive -- like Lutron, et. al. 

So my advice is to swap out all of the old gear at the same time. 

Contact Touch Plate for their latest pricing.

Good Luck. :thumbsup:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I must mention that when a contact stays "on" it's bleeding so much LV EMF that the OTHER coils are starved of EMF -- and refuse to toggle on or off.

This drives HO crazy. 

They don't comprehend that they've locked up their lights. 

They can't understand why the lights either won't come on -- or now -- unexpectedly -- won't go off. 

The civilians don't understand mechanically held contactors and associated pulsed signals. :no:

Hence, they can't describe what the heck is going on over the phone -- either. :blink:

Once an electrician realizes that these are mechanically held relays -- everything drops into place.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Scrap it.

You don't have to "rewire the whole house". 

Just remove the relays, connect the power to the switch legs in the old touchplate jbox and install switch loops from the ceiling boxes to the switch boxes.

With decent attic access it's not too tough.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

220/221 said:


> Scrap it.
> 
> You don't have to "rewire the whole house".
> 
> ...



Thats what I would do. Keeping something like that is not worth it. Headaches for you and the customer.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

I rewired switch legs on a house that had substantial loss after a surge.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

220/221 said:


> Scrap it.
> 
> You don't have to "rewire the whole house".
> 
> ...


If attempted, your labor involvement would just EXPLODE.

Plan A is to swap out the Touch Plate trims -- idiot simple -- nothing's wrong with the field wiring.

And swap out any burnt out relays -- almost as simple as changing trims.

You've ONLY got one cable running. It's the simplest Touch Plate scheme. 

Moving a couple of wires around -- back inside the Touch Plate enclosure is NOTHING compared to a re-wire -- NOTHING AT ALL.

Sheesh.

And the Touch Plate trims are actually cheap compared to what's out there.

The above advice is profered by someone who has never worked on Touch Plate -- that's for sure.

Swapping new for old -- FLIES into place.

Even re-lamping goes pretty quick. ( 6 VDC = 6 VAC, too. ) 

Right now, dead lamps make the switching state of the Touch Plate system confusing. Changing them is simple Simon. 

Sheesh.

Servicing Touch Plate is as easy as ANY activity one could imagine -- and you don't even have to go to your knees, perhaps you might even avoid ladder work. ( Your enclosure appears to be at floor level. )

Every element is made easy to service after the fact.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> If attempted, your labor involvement would just EXPLODE.


Seriously?

With decent access you can drop all the switchlegs in in a day. Then you have a system that uses *standard switches and dimmers* and will function forever. While you are at it, use 3 wire and have a switch for the ceiling fan.

Replacing this cobbled up mess is silly, IMO. I have done troubleshoot/repair and replacement on many of these things and it's always been a mess. It's a bad idea from day one. 

Some clowns were sitting around one day in 1950 and said "Let's put two separate wiring systems in to turn on the lights. All we need to do is add a relay component for each light, some special switches and a bunch of LV wire. Instead of simply running a 10' cable from the light box to the switch box, we can string all the switch legs and a bunch of LV wire to a box in the attic"


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

220/221 said:


> Seriously?
> 
> With decent access you can drop all the switchlegs in in a day. Then you have a system that uses *standard switches and dimmers* and will function forever. While you are at it, use 3 wire and have a switch for the ceiling fan.
> 
> ...


Which makes perfect sense when you've never changed out the trims of a Touch Plate system. They fly into a home quicker than conventional trims - - MUCH faster.

Touch Plate -- and the GE knock-off -- were the early attempt at gaining the flexibility common to modern digital systems. (X -10) 

They provide -- still -- multi-point control.

1) Master control in the master bedroom/ kitchen can turn lights on/off EVERYWHERE.

2) Most of the significant rooms can feature 3 way 4 way logic -- with the exact same ultra simple trim -- a pulse contact switch.

3) The trims last about forty-years. Then it's time to replace them all. This way you get color consistency -- and a totally refreshed system.

4) The active elements -- the coils are child's play back at the enclosure. 

5) The lamps are CHEAP -- still in production -- and should be purchased with the intention of keeping spares. They are easy to R&R.

There is not a chance in the world that anyone can rope in BX/ Romex faster than a mere trim swap... perhaps a coil swap.

A sticky forty-year old Touch Plate trim has outlasted all of the cheesy stuff coming in from Red China.

If they were properly cleaned -- on a timely basis -- the dang touch-switches ought to last centuries. They don't handle much current and are astoundingly simple.

The field conductors -- on the LV side -- figure to last about 1,000 years. Most of the time they just do nothing. Then, the occasional LV jolt goes down the wire. That's it.:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I feel like I have an unhealthy admiration for the passion you express for these systems.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

telsa said:


> .:laughing:


Two words.

Dim mers


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Well I still didn't start the job yet because I am waiting on an ok from the HO on price.. I was thinking of removing those old PL-6 blocks that light up 6 red buttons in the kitchen and give them non lit button type and have only the relays in master box in attic.I am also going to change out all of the switches that are related to that system.. I f tried to rewire the with line voltage it would take longer because they used mud rings for the switch mount.I would have to install boxes in the plastered walls..


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I will say in one area here there are may and they are all badly installed. The best thing I can recommend is have a helper, or stay at the box and use the HO. One person stay at the panel and one hit switches (it would be easier to make the helper run around). Make a diagram or label the relays as to what they control. Remember one relay can have more than one switch location. IIRC you can still feel and slightly hear the stuck ones, you need to have your hand on the relay though. Once you diagram it out it will be easier to troubleshoot. Most touch plate stuff is still available direct from them so you can replace most of it (the switch styles may vary from what's there).
They do look menacing when you open the cover but just take a deep breath and jump into the chaos with both hands and embrace the fun.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Sparky J said:


> I will say in one area here there are may and they are all badly installed. The best thing I can recommend is have a helper, or stay at the box and use the HO. One person stay at the panel and one hit switches (it would be easier to make the helper run around). Make a diagram or label the relays as to what they control. Remember one relay can have more than one switch location. IIRC you can still feel and slightly hear the stuck ones, you need to have your hand on the relay though. Once you diagram it out it will be easier to troubleshoot. Most touch plate stuff is still available direct from them so you can replace most of it (the switch styles may vary from what's there).
> They do look menacing when you open the cover but just take a deep breath and jump into the chaos with both hands and embrace the fun.


This is all backwards.

You pull the trims off the wall -- a couple of screws -- let these LV switches dangle -- they are as light as a feather.

They are all COLOR CODED. Yes.

It's the color of the field connection that determines what's up.

You don't need a second man -- at all.

The typical cable has seven - eight conductors -- ONE will be the common -- typically that will be WHITE.

You'll see it hooked up at every Touch Plate trim.

The other colors uniquely identify a coil// relay// latching relay connection. -- which are idiot obvious -- the colors, again -- back at the Touch Plate enclosure.

Leave EVERYTHING dangling until you've figured out the lay of the land. You can still operate the switches while dangling. 

Then you'll wander around like Homer Simpson saying, "Doh ! Is that not obvious."

Power (LV) is constantly available on the common. (white)

Pressing a switch// trim causes a pulse to go to a specific coil// relay based on the color of the conductor in the LV cable// harness.

Stuck -- ancient -- Touch Plates foul it up. When entering a Touch Plate home -- these days -- most need to have ALL of their trims replaced -- as they are 30 to 45 years old -- and at the end of their design life. If these were common tract home wall switches -- no-one would be making a fuss. Tossing them is old hat.

Even Touch Plate trims don't last forever. If they stick they foul up the entire logic of the system -- which hates sticking trims. 

Pulsed switching signals are so alien to the industry norm that electricians get all hung up about them.

Whereas they are the simplest thing going. It's their NOVELTY that throws everyone. 

Once you understand that the relays are latching -- mechanically held -- and only need a pulse to change state -- you are almost all the way home.

Once you understand that each coil is color co-ordinated to its controlling trims// Touch Plate switches -- it's as easy as pie. It doesn't get any easier. You sure don't need a second person. Duh ! 

The key is to pull the trims off the wall and let them dangle. UNLIKE ordinary switches -- there is ZERO risk. 

It's not only LV and limited current -- its_ really_ LV and limited current. So you can do stuff that you'd never do at 120 VAC.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Back at the control box // relay enclosure...

Don't be surprised to see only two or three hots going back to the panel.

Whereas their will be at least one switch-leg tied off to each relay -- often more than one for big spaces which justified split switch-leg routing.

But the usual drill is to have only a single switch-leg that is daisy chained around a given space// room.

Typically each bedroom will be uniquely switched.
Hallways, too.
Exterior lighting.
Kitchen 
Living room// main room

A big home will have a second cable that will be easy to dope out as the original crew did not build a puzzle palace. The lighting logic will be split in half.

The OP has the simplest system going: just the one cable.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> Back at the control box // relay enclosure... Don't be surprised to see only two or three hots going back to the panel. Whereas their will be at least one switch-leg tied off to each relay -- often more than one for big spaces which justified split switch-leg routing. But the usual drill is to have only a single switch-leg that is daisy chained around a given space// room. Typically each bedroom will be uniquely switched. Hallways, too. Exterior lighting. Kitchen Living room// main room A big home will have a second cable that will be easy to dope out as the original crew did not build a puzzle palace. The lighting logic will be split in half. The OP has the simplest system going: just the one cable.


 There is one circuit in the box.. I recently posted that I will be eliminating the pilot light transformers so that will give me more room..any thoughts?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

To my mind, the pilot lights -- indicating that this or that light is ON -- is a huge factor in the Touch Plate scheme.

If they are omitted, then you can't spot the fact that an exterior light is running all night long.

My sister has a Touch Plate system which is twice the size depicted. It has two master control panels -- the master bedroom and the kitchen.

She loves the fact that she can turn every switch in the house on and off from her bed.

Once I cleared up the screw-ball 'repairs' made by the former owner, it's been clear sailing for fifteen-years. 

The daunting complexity of the Touch Plate relay enclosure becomes simple once you've mapped the COLORS of the various Touch Plate trim contacts. 

A bedroom will have one trim -- on one wire color in the cable.

This same color will be routed to any and all master controls. Hence EVERY switch leg has at least three-way switching logic -- and usually more. ( There will be two master controls -- kitchen and master bedroom is typical in an up-scale home. )

When you omit the idiot lamps, you leave the user blind as to the state// on condition of a given switch leg. Now turning the lights off sounds identical to turning them on. One has to roam through the home to figure out what's on or off.

The lamps are dirt cheap -- $2 at full retail -- yet last and last and last. I'm sure that the Touch Plate price is marked up silly, too. 

I did run in to busted components. When the system 'hangs' there is a strong tendency for folks to pound on the buttons... which breaks them and doesn't solve anything.

Compared to modern digital controls, Touch Plate is dirt cheap. It also does not have all of the bells and whistles possible with digital controls.

I recommend that you develop the local reputation as being "Mr. Touch Plate" -- you'll be very, very, glad you did. 

It's 'cake' work that confuses newbies -- totally. 

You'll find that every Touch Plate home is not so easy to fish in Romex... 

Whereas replacing trims is a breeze. 

They have one basic fault : sticking contacts. ( and eventually dead indicator bulbs )

Otherwise, they last just about forever.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I absolutely love working on those old low voltage switching systems. To my knowledge, I currently service or have worked on every vintage installation in my area. I understand them, I don't hate them, and parts are certainly available. They worked for the last 50 years. With proper service today, they'll work for another 50 years.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I call you next time :thumbup:










I'd rather hand dig a trench in the summer. 

I hate them way more than I hate wiremold/plugmold.

I hate them more than drywallers.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

They don't want to spend to much money so I am blanking off the lit ones..two wire harnesses will be removed. So I only have several wires to ring out.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

How do these stack up to the GE system? That seemed a little simpler.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

nrp3 said:


> How do these stack up to the GE system? That seemed a little simpler.


The universal 'difficulty' with all of these systems: the original installers did not document their work.

The other universal law is that the enclosure covers MUST be throw away so that all of the circuits are naked to the world.

So, right from the start: you must MAP the system. 

Perhaps:

White........................... Common
Green.......................... Bedroom #1
Yellow.......................... Hallway
Red.............................. Master Bedroom
Blue............................. Kitchen
... ....

Or some such scheme.

This is idiot easy: drop the trims all over the house and let them dangle. They are LV... you don't have to de-energize any thing.

Then you can take your map and make sense of what's connected back at the relays. For heaven's sake, don't start your work back at the coils. That's backwards.

%%%

As for whether GE or Touch Plate is easier -- who cares? :laughing:

I don't select either. 

I fix them. :thumbsup:

If you're dealing with just one control cable// harness -- it's a snap.

Otherwise, break out the toner and wand. Then it's still a snap.

Bring your wire numbers, phase tape, and note pad. You'll need them. :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dimmers? Fan speed controls? 

It seems like half the switches in a modern house are dimmers/fan speed controllers/timers.

Scrap that crap and install a normal system so dummies like me can troubleshoot and dummies like you can install standard switches/dimmers :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Dimmers? Fan speed controls?
> 
> It seems like half the switches in a modern house are dimmers/fan speed controllers/timers.
> 
> Scrap that crap and install a normal system :laughing:


Yeah, but now, instead of the question being "what color do you want"- you're saying to yourself "God, I hope this dimmer works with this brand fluorescent/LED". :laughing: It's a damn crapshoot lately.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, but now, instead of the question being "what color do you want"- you're saying to yourself "God, I hope this dimmer works with this brand fluorescent/LED". :laughing: It's a damn crapshoot lately.


I miss the olden days. White or Ivory switches.

Ok, white or Ivory switches or dimmers
OK, white or Ivory switches or rotary push or twist dimmers
OK, white or Ivory switches or rotary push or twist or slide dimmers

I don't have the energy to complete the history but, you know where it is today. :laughing:

The same thing applies to the commercial lighting maintenance we do. I swear there are 10 new lamps added every year.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> The universal 'difficulty' with all of these systems: the original installers did not document their work. The other universal law is that the enclosure covers MUST be throw away so that all of the circuits are naked to the world. So, right from the start: you must MAP the system. Perhaps: White........................... Common Green.......................... Bedroom #1 Yellow.......................... Hallway Red.............................. Master Bedroom Blue............................. Kitchen ... .... Or some such scheme. This is idiot easy: drop the trims all over the house and let them dangle. They are LV... you don't have to de-energize any thing. Then you can take your map and make sense of what's connected back at the relays. For heaven's sake, don't start your work back at the coils. That's backwards. %%% As for whether GE or Touch Plate is easier -- who cares? :laughing: I don't select either. I fix them. :thumbsup: If you're dealing with just one control cable// harness -- it's a snap. Otherwise, break out the toner and wand. Then it's still a snap. Bring your wire numbers, phase tape, and note pad. You'll need them. :laughing:


 I started from the coils since it was like a rats nest in there couldn't trace out the wires in the super hot attic. I started removing all pl-6 transformers and relays... I am waiting for the stuff I ordered to come.. When I go back there I will do what you said and let switches dangle and trace out wires which at this point isn't that many since I removed two lit 6 button switches and wire harnesses..they didn't want to spend money on the 4 wire relay..


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## Puas (Jun 3, 2021)

220/221 said:


> Seriously?
> 
> With decent access you can drop all the switchlegs in in a day. Then you have a system that uses *standard switches and dimmers* and will function forever. While you are at it, use 3 wire and have a switch for the ceiling fan.
> 
> ...


yep…. I’m dealing with this mess of a lighting system… what made these electrical engineers think it was a bright idea to overly complicate a switch!!

im scraping my system and running wiring for regular toggle switches…. Keep it simple stupid!


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

I take them out and just put Leviton power modules 
*LEVITON OPP20-D2 *
I use the same wires and use LV momentary contact switches.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Wow...... bunch of old names I recognize on this thread. Kinda miss those guys.

But Tesla was a trip dude. For some reason his long jumbled posts always gave me a headache. I wish he would’ve just kept it to 2 paragraphs or less, it would’ve been a lot easier to read


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Wow...... bunch of old names I recognize on this thread. Kinda miss those guys.
> 
> But Tesla was a trip dude. For some reason his long jumbled posts always gave me a headache. I wish he would’ve just kept it to 2 paragraphs or less, it would’ve been a lot easier to read


Specially when he started mentioning Red China


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