# Who is the leader in brushless drill technology?



## Tikola Nesla (Aug 3, 2014)

Milwaukee.


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## Monkeyboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Most electricians only need the power of Milwaukee. It seems 90% have these. For real power, makita. I have had them all and still use 5 brands through my job. But we all have opinions.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I had trouble with Fuel Drills when they first came out but Milwaukee took care of me and they're good now. If money was no object I would like to try out Festool.


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## Tikola Nesla (Aug 3, 2014)

Milwaukee M12 Fuel line only. 

Compact size, lots of power, very reasonably priced and many tools in the line.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

I am a Makita / Milwaukee fan. I used to be hardcore Makita. Either one will serve you well. 

I chose Milwaukee M12 Fuel for a couple of reasons. Size, weight, battery life and power. I loved my Makita brushless impact. I love my Milwaukee more. I just built my deck with my Fuel M12 impact. I did the entire top with 3 1/2" #8 deck screws and only used 2 4AH batteries. The batteries last a long time. 

The only thing I would criticize is that the Milwaukee's get pretty hot after steady use. My makita never ran that warm. Despite the heat, the tool performed perfectly.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Monkeyboy said:


> Most electricians only need the power of Milwaukee. It seems 90% have these. For real power, makita. I have had them all and still use 5 brands through my job. But we all have opinions.


Show me the stats where Makita has more power than Milwaukee in a drill of the same class??


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point. 

I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point.
> 
> I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


I'd say the brushless has about 20% more power than the equivalent brushed tool. The batteries run longer too. The biggest drawback I've seen with the brushless is they have an overload built into them so you can't abuse the drill. My old brushed Milwaukee will turn a 6" hole saw without cutting out.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point. I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


It isn't electronics that makes a drill brushless. It's the lack of brushes and a commutator. The addition of the electronics is mainly for speed control, over current protection, direction control etc...

Not having brushes rubbing against a commutator actually reduces potential failure.


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## Tikola Nesla (Aug 3, 2014)

I like that I can use a 12V line of tools, which normally would be insufficient in power and battery wouldn't last very long.. now I can use 12V brushless (fuel) for almost everything and the batteries last a long time.. and they're not huge tools, so I can stuff a bunch of them in a smaller area of my truck.

That's the appeal to me.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> It isn't electronics that makes a drill brushless. It's the lack of brushes and a commutator...


 Yes, thank you. :laughing: I don't claim to be an expert on this, but my understanding is they're inverting the DC into high-frequency AC in order to make an induction motor. I don't know what the rate of brush failure is in hand-tools, it's never been a problem I've had, and I'm suspicious of making anything electronic that doesn't need it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The marketing propaganda is true. Higher torque, longer run time. I don't carry an extension cord anymore. I have nothing to plug it into (besides my charger).

An M18 Fuel drill is a tool to be respected. If it grabs, you could easily sprain a wrist. It's not a toy.

I was subbing to another contractor who ran and grabbed his corded drill when we were going through some really ugly stuff. By the time he got back, I had made it through with the Fuel. He couldn't believe it.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm an M12 convert. Powerful, but light enough your arm doesn't turn to spaghetti after a couple of hours


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

99cents said:


> The marketing propaganda is true. Higher torque, longer run time. I don't carry an extension cord anymore. I have nothing to plug it into (besides my charger).
> 
> An M18 Fuel drill is a tool to be respected. If it grabs, you could easily sprain a wrist. It's not a toy.
> 
> I was subbing to another contractor who ran and grabbed his corded drill when we were going through some really ugly stuff. By the time he got back, I had made it through with the Fuel. He couldn't believe it.


Agreed. The big fuel drill is a torque monster. I'm concerned it is going to spin right off its grip.
I got a chance to run the fuel angle grinder last week. It is the first cordless that feels like its corded counterpart. I want one.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point.
> 
> I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


Brushless has proven itself in the r/c world and I'm sure in the next few years we will by seeing some seriously powerful/efficient cordless tools. Even more so than the current generation.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point.
> 
> I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


Though they advertise it, I don't think reliability is the main advantage of going brushless. It's the lighter weight and longer run time that I'd be buying it for.

I'm considering the Hitachi KC18DJL combo kit, brushless hammer drill and brushless impact. The impact driver can be set to stop after the first impact.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Big John said:


> I don't understand the appeal of brushless drills. Since many manufacturers seem to use electronics to make them brushless it seems like it just adds a new potential failure point. I have never had a drill failure due to brushes, is that really a common problem for some of y'all?


. I've been thinking the same thing , and know that I've personally never had to replace brushes in any of my steadily used cordless stuff . The stats boast more power and torque on these brushless models , but I tend to think that has little to do with whether the motor is brushless or not ? I remember buying a makita years ago with the easy to replace brushes on either side of the drill . Now that drill sits unused with batteries that won't hold a charge , but the brushes are fine , lol !


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

To answer the question , I'm slowly converting to milwaukee . I've got a nice collection of M-12 tools and find myself rarely needing to drag out my older yellow , 18 volt stuff . The size , weight and battery life has made me a believer , and it's nice grabbing one bag of cordless tools that will take care of any job ! Granted , that bag may eventually need wheels , but it's still nice , lol !


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## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

I love my M-18 fuel hammer drill, but if it gets stuck and you don't have the clutch on, be prepared to be in a world of hurt. Personally I think it has too much torque, but the batteries last much longer on it than my standard drill. A lot less hot too.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

That's quite a few votes for Milwaukee thanks, is the M12 line really powerful enough for professionals though?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Depends on what you're doing. I use my M18 combo pack almost every day. I use a small 4V driver for the delicate work. I don't use M12 stuff (other than a Hackzall and a radio) and see no reason to. Sometimes it's personal preference.

When the going gets gnarly, I don't see how an M12 could touch an M18.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

99cents said:


> Depends on what you're doing.


Exactly. 

90% of day-to-day stuff is handled very easily by the M12 fuel impact. 

The M12 Fuel impact is only 2.2 lbs, the M18 impact is 3.1 lbs. 
The M12 Fuel impact is 1200 inch lbs peak torque, the M18 is 1500 inch lbs. 
The speed of the two is virtually identical. 
Add 1.6 lbs for the M18 4.0AH battery and you are at 4.7 lbs. 
Add .9 lbs for the M12 4.0AH battery and you are at 3.1 Lbs. 

For the size and weight, the M12 Fuel is a powerhouse. 

The M18 clocks in at 319 in-lbs of torque per pound. 
The M12 clocks in at 387 in-lbs of torque per pound. 

For me it was easy, why lug around 45% more weight for nothing.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Oh, and to be fair, the M18 Fuel impact is only 1600 in-lbs, I was just comparing price points.


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## Tikola Nesla (Aug 3, 2014)

Felandro said:


> That's quite a few votes for Milwaukee thanks, is the M12 line really powerful enough for professionals though?


Basically yes, without knowing more information.. but specifically the m12 *FUEL* line. *FUEL!!* Gotta be fuel.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Sorry I don't do delicate work right now I am an apprentice, so drilling through boxs, multiple studs etc would be my type of work. Right now I have the brushless Makita with 1.5amp batteries. It stalls all the time on 1/2 inch holes.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Do you have one of the compact drills or one of the big ones?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Felandro said:


> Sorry I don't do delicate work right now I am an apprentice, so drilling through boxs, multiple studs etc would be my type of work. Right now I have the brushless Makita with 1.5amp batteries. It stalls all the time on 1/2 inch holes.


1.5ah batteries suck. Not only do they drain fast, I'm pretty sure that the bigger batteries actually make the drill perform better.

I actually use my 1.5ah batteries in my Sawzall and circular saw because I only use them for a very short time.


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## Tikola Nesla (Aug 3, 2014)

I haven't seen any manufacturer data that says a bigger battery means more power, but I'll say from real life experience, a bigger battery means more power!


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Tikola Nesla said:


> I haven't seen any manufacturer data that says a bigger battery means more power, but I'll say from real life experience, a bigger battery means more power!


That's because it doesn't. Lots of people mistake battery capacity (amp hour) rating with current draw. Bigger battery means it will last longer, not magically have more torque.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Felandro said:


> That's quite a few votes for Milwaukee thanks, is the M12 line really powerful enough for professionals though?


I would never settle for just the M12 line. If you're hanging conduit, boxes etc. the M12 Fuel is the ticket. If you're doing resi work and running 3" screws in for blocking, the M18 is the way to go. If you're running auger bits, you might as well leave the M12 in the bag. Just my opinion, and I have both styles. That being said, my M12 Fuel impact is probably my most used cordless tool. Gotta have the big batteries though. Love it!:thumbsup: The M18 multi-tool will cut circles around the M12 version too.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> That's because it doesn't. Lots of people mistake battery capacity (amp hour) rating with current draw. Bigger battery means it will last longer, not magically have more torque.


Try both styles of M12 batteries in any M12 tool and you'll see the difference. I would imaging with the higher battery capacity, there's less voltage drop when the tool is under load.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> Try both styles of M12 batteries in any M12 tool and you'll see the difference. I would imaging with the higher battery capacity, there's less voltage drop when the tool is under load.


 I have 5 4.0 ah batteries and 8 2.0 ah batteries.

The cells in the batteries are identical, there are just more of them in the 4.0ah.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I know what you're saying but the big batteries seem like they give the tool more punch.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 90% of day-to-day stuff is handled very easily by the M12 fuel impact.
> 
> ...


The M18 Fuel is 1600 in-lbs. 1200-1600 in-lbs. is a noticeable difference if your driving long screws. And the M18 Fuel is 3.6 lbs.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> The M18 Fuel is 1600 in-lbs. 1200-1600 in-lbs. is a noticeable difference if your driving long screws.


I stated that after the post, I was comparing the price points. The m12 Fuel is the same price as the m18 brushed model.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Wpgshocker said:


> Oh, and to be fair, the M18 Fuel impact is only 1600 in-lbs, I was just comparing price points.


See?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> I stated that after the post, I was comparing the price points. The m12 Fuel is the same price as the m18 brushed model.


I've got all 4 different styles, M12 brushed, M12 Brushless, M18 Brushed, and M18 Brushless. Needless to say, the brushed ones don't get used anymore. I would agree that it isn't worth buying the M18 brushed when the M12 will work about as well, especially with the larger battery.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> I've got all 4 different styles, M12 brushed, M12 Brushless, M18 Brushed, and M18 Brushless. Needless to say, the brushed ones don't get used anymore. I would agree that it isn't worth buying the M18 brushed when the M12 will work about as well, especially with the larger battery.


Oh yeah, I feel bad for my brushed stuff, I never use it anymore. Same with my old Red Lithiums. I only carry the 2.0 and 4.0 AH now. 

At least I can use the old ones for my radio!


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> I have 5 4.0 ah batteries and 8 2.0 ah batteries.
> 
> The cells in the batteries are identical, there are just more of them in the 4.0ah.


Which would give it higher cranking amps, correct? I remember when they first come out with the M12 line. I couldn't cut 2" PVC with my shear but after they came out with the "Red Lithium" it would cut it.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

wendon said:


> Which would give it higher cranking amps, correct? I remember when they first come out with the M12 line. I couldn't cut 2" PVC with my shear but after they came out with the "Red Lithium" it would cut it.


The batteries are current limited and the tools are designed to "talk" to the battery. The Red Lithum batteries have circuitry to optimize the tool performance and battery life. The capacity increases, but the performance is constant.


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## Felandro (Mar 16, 2014)

Jhellwig said:


> Do you have one of the compact drills or one of the big ones?


 18V I believe it's a compact the drill has only just over 400lbs of torque


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't know about Makita but a "compact" Fuel drill simply means it comes with the small battery.


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

I love my M12 fuel, and it has caused me to leave my 18v impacts in the truck, unless I need to assembly line something with two bits (several light fixtures with 1/4" hex grounding screws for example)

I already had 3 M12 batteries, so $93 for the tool only was pretty easy to swallow, considering how much I use it. It did great on my litmus test of a 3/4" panhead self tapper into structural steel.


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## newcastle (Feb 24, 2013)

Wpgshocker said:


> I am a Makita / Milwaukee fan. I used to be hardcore Makita. Either one will serve you well. I chose Milwaukee M12 Fuel for a couple of reasons. Size, weight, battery life and power. I loved my Makita brushless impact. I love my Milwaukee more. I just built my deck with my Fuel M12 impact. I did the entire top with 3 1/2" #8 deck screws and only used 2 4AH batteries. The batteries last a long time. The only thing I would criticize is that the Milwaukee's get pretty hot after steady use. My makita never ran that warm. Despite the heat, the tool performed perfectly.


Drove at least 200 of nr.8 x 3" screws today,the only 4.0 ah battery I used just wouldn't die!not sure how much more it would take me to finally empty it,but I never thought something like that is possible with a cute little 12v impact
But I'm kinda disappointed with their hackzall, I don't know, took a brand new dewalt demo blade, 6" 10tpi, 4.ah battery, took forever to go through half of a 2x4.its not what I bought it for but still expected more, maybe to much, especially after the awesomeness of the fuel impact.


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## xPxPk (Aug 9, 2014)

Dont confuse a hackzall with a sawzall. They are different tools.


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

Wpgshocker said:


> The batteries are current limited and the tools are designed to "talk" to the battery. The Red Lithum batteries have circuitry to optimize the tool performance and battery life. The capacity increases, but the performance is constant.


One of my favorite features of Milwaukee. The battery tells the tool when it is dead, instead of trying to limp through the work. DeWalt is big on this, and I really dislike using coworkers DeWalt tools for this reason. Since I have 6 battery packs, it seems pointless trying to limp through my cut/bore, when I can easily switch out the batteries. Couple that with the fact that Li-ion packs are easily damaged on deep discharges, and the info-link system makes sense, IMO. I would much rather be inconvenienced to switch out batteries than damage a ~$100 battery pack. It's not like they don't have resistors to tell you how much approximate power is left in the pack,


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Anybody here who brags about the torque on an 18 volt fuel has never used an 18v Hilti drill. Who cares if its brushless if its not Hilti.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

butcher733 said:


> Anybody here who brags about the torque on an 18 volt fuel has never used an 18v Hilti drill. Who cares if its brushless if its not Hilti.


Hilti is German for "battery drains fast".


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

nbb said:


> One of my favorite features of Milwaukee. The battery tells the tool when it is dead, instead of trying to limp through the work. DeWalt is big on this, and I really dislike using coworkers DeWalt tools for this reason. Since I have 6 battery packs, it seems pointless trying to limp through my cut/bore, when I can easily switch out the batteries. Couple that with the fact that Li-ion packs are easily damaged on deep discharges, and the info-link system makes sense, IMO. I would much rather be inconvenienced to switch out batteries than damage a ~$100 battery pack. It's not like they don't have resistors to tell you how much approximate power is left in the pack,


My lithium dewalts shut off when the battery is dead without any limping. The only tools that do that are the nicd batteries and the two li-ion makitas that I've used.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

Wpgshocker said:


> The batteries are current limited and the tools are designed to "talk" to the battery. The Red Lithum batteries have circuitry to optimize the tool performance and battery life. The capacity increases, but the performance is constant.





> 650 in-lbs of Torque
> 
> We’ve seen 650 in-lbs mentioned in Milwaukee’s official specification listings, but it can deliver up to 725 in-lbs of power if you pair it with a high capacity XC battery



http://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-fuel-hammer-drill/


Even on the milwaukee website it shows 650 in lbs for the 2ah batteries and 725 in-lbs lbs for the 4ah


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

freeagnt54 said:


> http://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-fuel-hammer-drill/ Even on the milwaukee website it shows 650 in lbs for the 2ah batteries and 725 in-lbs lbs for the 4ah


Link please.

All I see is 725.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

butcher733 said:


> Anybody here who brags about the torque on an 18 volt fuel has never used an 18v Hilti drill. Who cares if its brushless if its not Hilti.


The 18v cordless tool shootout that I read showed hilti coming in 2nd to last in the torque department.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

Wpgshocker said:


> Link please.
> 
> All I see is 725.



http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2604-22ct


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

freeagnt54 said:


> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2604-22ct


I see it. That's odd. 

I think I am going to shoot an email at Milwaukee. The bare tool also says 725 with no battery, but no mention of a battery factor. The kit with the 2.0 AH batteries says nothing about the battery. It says that "POWERSTATE™ Brushless Motor: Delivers up to 650 in lbs of torque with maximum sustained torque to complete the toughest of applications"

I know they change spec all the time. Could it have been a spec change?

I checked all the other fuel stuff and there are no other differences in listed torque or performance from one battery capacity to another. M12 or M18 the rated torque is the same. 

That one drill seems to give some hope to the theory.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

Wpgshocker said:


> I see it. That's odd.
> 
> I think I am going to shoot an email at Milwaukee. The bare tool also says 725 with no battery, but no mention of a battery factor. The kit with the 2.0 AH batteries says nothing about the battery. It says that "POWERSTATE™ Brushless Motor: Delivers up to 650 in lbs of torque with maximum sustained torque to complete the toughest of applications"
> 
> ...



Let us know what they say.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

freeagnt54 said:


> Let us know what they say.


Here is better "proof", scroll down to the torque graphic. They specifically show the 2604-22 vs 2604-22CT.

http://www.milwaukeetool.com/brushless-motors


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

I am the first to admit when I am wrong!! 
It does give it more peak torque. 
Not sure if it is sustained or not, he only said initial energy. Either way, this seems pretty clear. 

The sad thing is, When I asked Milwaukee 2 years ago I was always told they were current limited which they are, but I was misinformed about the torque. 

Lemme remove my foot from my mouth! 

"Hi, 

Even though the #2604’s are the same tool, the additional energy provided by the 4.0 amp hour (72 watt hours) battery supplies more power to the tool. 
The smaller 2.0 amp hour (36 watt hours) battery does not provide the initial energy to allow the tool to achieve the higher torque rating. 

Thank You for giving us the opportunity to assist you, 

Mark 
After Sales Service – Technical Support 
Milwaukee Electric Tool Corporation"


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

freeagnt54 said:


> The 18v cordless tool shootout that I read showed hilti coming in 2nd to last in the torque department.


Was that printed specs or measured. My statement is experienced based. Being a union hand has the advantage of trying out pretty much every common cordless tool and manufacturer out there.


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