# 2 conductor Gfi recept.



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

406.3. I think you'll find you're SOL in adding a recep.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

You can't extend a 2 wire circuit so like Ken said you are SOL.

Check out 250.130(C) for running an EGC for a branch circuit extention.

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

stillirnin said:


> Have a little job ,older home majority is 2 conductor,bathrooms have no recept. just the one in the old style vanity light fixture HO wants to replace fixture and add gfci recept. looked thru 406.3 (D) (3) (b) , 406.3(D) (3) (c), 250.50 , 250.130(C) for different way to do with or with out available ground . My question is can I stil use gfci with add on recept. or is this restricted to replacement of existing recept. only . Thanx in advance and please add art. number that covers this


You can install a GFCI rec , with no problem. Just make sure it's marked NO EGC. As for the light fixture, that can be replaced as well. All of this, with conforming to the NEC. No one knows if the rec was there or not other then the HO. Just take into consideration the location of GFCI in relationship to the bathing area. No rec shall be placed within 2' of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> . No rec shall be placed within 2' of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall.


Is this a NY code or amendment because it is not an NEC code.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Around here I go by my own code.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> You can install a GFCI rec , with no problem. Just make sure it's marked NO EGC. As for the light fixture, that can be replaced as well. All of this, with conforming to the NEC. No one knows if the rec was there or not other then the HO. Just take into consideration the location of GFCI in relationship to the bathing area. No rec shall be placed within 2' of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall.




That gfi can be right next to the shower stall. There is no 2 ft rule. And you must install 2 stickers. One that says "no equipment ground" and another that says "gfi protected".


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Around here I go by my own code.



My 2011 looks different for some reason......:laughing:

I believe NC is not adopting the 2011 anytime soon. I was told they passed a law and we will stay on 2008 until further notice. This is the first time I can remember that the new code does not take effect june 1.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> No one knows if the rec was there or not other then the HO.


It will be pretty obvious that the circuit extention is new and not original when someone sees NM cable instead of knob and tube. Remember that as an electrical contactor you are required to wire to the NEC regardless of whether or not you pull a permit.



> No rec shall be placed within 2' of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall.


Is this a NYC electrical code requirement?

Chris


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Around here I go by my own code.



What is that thing stuck to the left side of your head? :laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

That is a fancy ballroom chandelier. The picture is me but I photoshopped the background. There were three women I was posing with. I had to do something to enhance my looks. Didn't help did it..


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> What is that thing stuck to the left side of your head? :laughing:


That is the alien mother ship come to bring Dennis home.:thumbup::laughing::laughing:

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

raider1 said:


> It will be pretty obvious that the circuit extention is new and not original when someone sees NM cable instead of knob and tube. Remember that as an electrical contactor you are required to wire to the NEC regardless of whether or not you pull a permit.
> 
> Is this a NYC electrical code requirement?
> 
> Chris


Thank you for correcting. It's a luminaire fixture. 410.10(d)
Sorry for the confusion. 
But I do recall the 2002 code stating what I said early about rec. Was that ever in the 2002 if anyone remembers?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

raider1 said:


> It will be pretty obvious that the circuit extention is new and not original when someone sees NM cable instead of knob and tube. Remember that as an electrical contactor you are required to wire to the NEC regardless of whether or not you pull a permit.
> 
> Is this a NYC electrical code requirement?
> 
> Chris


Anyway! You can install a GFCI / switch provided you have a noodle in the switch box. Without rewiring anything. Come on nobody knew that.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> But I do recall the 2002 code stating what I said early about rec. Was that ever in the 2002 if anyone remembers?


The 2002 did not have a requirement for receptacles to be located 2' outside the bathtub or showerstall.

The 2002 has the same requirement that the 2008 NEC does that receptacles can't be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Chris


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Anyway! You can install a GFCI / switch provided you have a noodle in the switch box. Without rewiring anything. Come on nobody knew that.


When was the last time that you saw a neutral (Noodle ) in a swithcbox with old knob and tube wiring?

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> When was the last time that you saw a neutral (Noodle ) in a swithcbox with old knob and tube wiring?
> 
> Chris



Isn't the OP talking about ungrounded 2 conductor circuits not knob and tube?:blink:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Isn't the OP talking about ungrounded 2 conductor circuits not knob and tube?:blink:


I am not sure the age of the system that the OPer is dealing with. Knob and tube wiring is a 2 wire ungrounded system. There are other types of wiring systems that were 2 wire ungrounded such as BX and BraidX systems that were a cable system and not run as knob and tube.

But even if it is not knob and tube most 2 wire ungrounded systems did not have a neutral brought to a switch.

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

raider1 said:


> I am not sure the age of the system that the OPer is dealing with. Knob and tube wiring is a 2 wire ungrounded system. There are other types of wiring systems that were 2 wire ungrounded such as BX and BraidX systems that were a cable system and not run as knob and tube.
> 
> But even if it is not knob and tube most 2 wire ungrounded systems did not have a neutral brought to a switch.
> 
> Chris


Bx is not a technical term its call Ac armor. And since when is the steel armor of "BX" ( Bronx cable) not considered the EGC?


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Bx is not a technical term its call Ac armor. And since when is the steel armor of "BX" ( Bronx cable) not considered the EGC?


I know that BX is a slang term no different than Romex is. The reason that I used the term BX is that during that time period AC cable was referred to almost exclusively as BX.

I find it interesting that a person that consistently refers to a neutral as a "Noodle" would be lecturing me on the use of proper terminology.

I also understand that the metal sheath of AC cable is capable of qualifying as an equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 250.118

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Bx is not a technical term its call Ac armor. And since when is the steel armor of "BX" ( Bronx cable) not considered the EGC?


So, if you did know that BX cables outer jacket why did you state that it wasn't. Did you have to check the code first before you could respond or was it just an error on your part.. LOL!!!

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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

And was is BRAIDEX cable

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## stillirnin (Jan 24, 2008)

Its the old 2 conductor in braided cloth jacket with tar or what ever it is ,no GC just switch leg in box


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is a fancy ballroom chandelier. The picture is me but I photoshopped the background. There were three women I was posing with. I had to do something to enhance my looks. Didn't help did it..


First I thought your were lesbian named alice., then
I thought you were an elderly black piano player. Now I found out your just some white dude. I am disappointed.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Can a two wire circuit be extended after you pull a separate grounding conductor to it?


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Bkessler said:


> Can a two wire circuit be extended after you pull a separate grounding conductor to it?


Yes, Provided the new cables equipment EGC is connected to the separate EGC you supplied! Without looking at the code book!

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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> So, if you did know that BX cables outer jacket why did you state that it wasn't. Did you have to check the code first before you could respond or was it just an error on your part.. LOL!!!


I know that the sheath of AC cable CAN be used as an equipment grounding conductor. In may old installation the sheath was NOT used as an EGC because there was no equipment grounding conductor used as part of the premise wiring system. I would never assume that a very old AC cable system was an effective equipment grounding conductor without doing some testing.



Salvatoreg02 said:


> And was is BRAIDEX cable





stillirnin said:


> Its the old 2 conductor in braided cloth jacket with tar or what ever it is ,no GC just switch leg in box


Sal, it sounds like it is BraidX and there is no NOODLE in the box so my earlier statement stands that you can't just put in a GFCI receptacle.

If you have to run new wiring to install a receptacle then you must comply with 250.130(C). You can't extend a 2 wire ungrounded circuit.

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

raider1 said:


> I know that the sheath of AC cable CAN be used as an equipment grounding conductor. In may old installation the sheath was NOT used as an EGC because there was no equipment grounding conductor used as part of the premise wiring system. I would never assume that a very old AC cable system was an effective equipment grounding conductor without doing some testing.
> 
> Sal, it sounds like it is BraidX and there is no NOODLE in the box so my earlier statement stands that you can't just put in a GFCI receptacle.
> 
> ...


Chris,
Okay, we know that knob and tube is illegal if you renovate an entire house you must remove knob and tube in it's entirety But, if a circuit had to be extended due to limited or no more space in the fused panel then 250.130 less sentence says you can provided 250.130(c) is implemented. 2008 code. I'm I taking what's being said out of context. 
Forget about the GFCI for now in my question.

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Chris,
> Okay, we know that knob and tube is illegal if you renovate an entire house you must remove knob and tube in it's entirety


I don't know that, can you show me the NEC section that says that?


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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Without looking at the code book!


Oh wow!


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

> But, if a circuit had to be extended due to limited or no more space in the fused panel then 250.130 less sentence says you can provided 250.130(c) is implemented. 2008 code.


Correct, if you want to extend an existing 2 wire circuit then you must install an equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 250.130(C).That means that the extention is now a 3 wire extention.

Chris


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I don't know that, can you show me the NEC section that says that?


It's not in the NEC. ITS A BUILDING CODE REQUIREMENT, that you remove all knob and tube from the premise if you renovate the entire house or more then 50% of the house is being altered. And no local municipality would give you a CO. if you didn't do so.

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It's not in the NEC. ITS A BUILDING CODE REQUIREMENT, that you remove all knob and tube from the premise if you renovate the entire house or more then 50% of the house is being altered. And no local municipality would give you a CO. if you didn't do so.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Can you cite this building code requirement? Please and thank you.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Can you cite this building code requirement? Please and thank you.


Your a really pain my ass. Every municipality will have different requirements but many follow suit when it comes to knob and tube. One city in our county won't let you sell your house if you have a fused panel. I can not nor recite a code section. It's been known factor around here for many yrs. Each municipality probably implements how this handled differently. Let's put it this way. Within a 50 mile radius if you want to get work in those areas. You need to hold 5 separate county licenses. Just to give you an example how things are different from one state to another

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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> It's not in the NEC. ITS A BUILDING CODE REQUIREMENT, that you remove all knob and tube from the premise if you renovate the entire house or more then 50% of the house is being altered. And no local municipality would give you a CO. if you didn't do so.


You seem very excitable, can I suggest you settle down and realize that as much as New Yorkers thinks so NY is not the center of the universe.

Not all building codes have the same rules as NY. So before you say something like 'all K&T must be removed' you might say 'In my area'


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> Can you cite this building code requirement? Please and thank you.


Let me ask you another question. Exit sign 's and smoke detectors are not in the NEC. So where wiuld you find out where these devices are needed to be located if a reflected ceiling drawing didn't show you???

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## RobTownfold64 (Mar 17, 2011)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Your a really pain my ass.


 All I asked for is a code reference. How is that being a pain in your ass? You've been ranting and raving all day, but a code reference in the "NEC Code Forum" is too much for you??



> Every municipality will have different requirements but many follow suit when it comes to knob and tube. One city in our county won't let you sell your house if you have a fused panel. I can not nor recite a code section. It's been known factor around here for many yrs. Each municipality probably implements how this handled differently. Let's put it this way. Within a 50 mile radius if you want to get work in those areas. You need to hold 5 separate county licenses. Just to give you an example how things are different from one state to another
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


 So what you are saying is A) You don't know that it's code or not, you are just going by word of mouth and B) You only know of it in your area, you don't know if that rule is enforced anywhere else, so when you are talking to people all over the country you shouldn't state something is code as you did.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Let me ask you another question. Exit sign 's and smoke detectors are not in the NEC. So where wiuld you find out where these devices are needed to be located if a reflected ceiling drawing didn't show you???..........



Local building codes.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

RobTownfold64 said:


> All I asked for is a code reference. How is that being a pain in your ass? You've been ranting and raving all day, but a code reference in the "NEC Code Forum" is too much for you??
> 
> So what you are saying is A) You don't know that it's code or not, you are just going by word of mouth and B) You only know of it in your area, you don't know if that rule is enforced anywhere else, so when you are talking to people all over the country you shouldn't state something is code as you did.


I rescind my comment about pain in my ass. Your a throne in my ass.

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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> I am not sure the age of the system that the OPer is dealing with. Knob and tube wiring is a 2 wire ungrounded system. There are other types of wiring systems that were 2 wire ungrounded such as BX and BraidX systems that were a cable system and not run as knob and tube.
> 
> But even if it is not knob and tube most 2 wire ungrounded systems did not have a neutral brought to a switch.
> 
> Chris


I ASSUMED it was cloth romex with no ground because he did not say knob and tube. Here I have only heard k&T be called k&t not ungrounded. Anytime a home inspector or homeowner says they have ungrounded circuits it is always cloth romex. 


Chris in my area it's a toss up if the switch box will have a neutral. I see it in the box as much as it not being there.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I ASSUMED it was cloth romex with no ground because he did not say knob and tube. Here I have only heard k&T be called k&t not ungrounded. Anytime a home inspector or homeowner says they have ungrounded circuits it is always cloth romex.


Not a problem. Each area has different terminology. 




> Chris in my area it's a toss up if the switch box will have a neutral. I see it in the box as much as it not being there.


Even in the old 2 wire romex or braidX, interesting. I don't know that I have seen old homes with neutrals run to switch boxes when it was an ungrounded circuit.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bkessler said:


> First I thought your were lesbian named alice., then
> I thought you were an elderly black piano player. Now I found out your just some white dude. I am disappointed.


I have multiple personalities. :laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> I rescind my comment about pain in my ass. Your a throne in my ass.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Man, a throne in your ass has just got to hurt.:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Not a problem. Each area has different terminology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In a few areas I work in regularly the old guys would bring the HR to the switch box first. BUT there are always a few rooms with just a switch leg.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Salvatoreg02 said:


> Anyway! You can install a GFCI / switch provided you have a noodle in the switch box. Without rewiring anything. Come on nobody knew that.


If I find noodles in my junction boxes I'm cleaning em out :whistling2:


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

I have to commend those that are on this web site daily and provide us with such knowledgable information. You guys really know your stuff!!

SAL

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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> If I find noodles in my junction boxes I'm cleaning em out :whistling2:


 Or, just add a little tomato sauce! :laughing::laughing:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> First I thought your were lesbian named alice., then
> I thought you were an elderly black piano player. Now I found out your just some white dude. I am disappointed.


I got to admit, I'm disappointed too!


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> That gfi can be right next to the shower stall. There is no 2 ft rule. And you must install 2 stickers. One that says "no equipment ground" and another that says "gfi protected".


 
The HO will promptly remove them after you leave. But, hey, you did your job.


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