# Branch circuit tap



## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Can you tap an oven circuit and install a small panel?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Depends, what's the book say?


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

joebanana said:


> Depends, what's the book say?


 There’s a book?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Awg-Dawg said:


> There’s a book?


Tap rules in the NEC. Should be in the index in the back.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Can you tap an oven circuit and install a small panel?


Would you be tapping it? Or would you be repurposing part of the existing cable to now feed a sub panel? And then subsequently feeding the oven circuit from that sub panel?

Doing it that way might put you over the calculated load, but it would work otherwise.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Would you be tapping it? Or would you be repurposing part of the existing cable to now feed a sub panel? And then subsequently feeding the oven circuit from that sub panel?
> 
> Doing it that way might put you over the calculated load, but it would work otherwise.


The oven circuit would stay, the panel is really only for a couple of small 120v loads. (Christmas lights)

Electrically I see no issue, I was just curious if it’s a violation.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Awg-Dawg said:


> The oven circuit would stay, the panel is really only for a couple of small 120v loads. (Christmas lights)
> 
> Electrically I see no issue, I was just curious if it’s a violation.


Where would you tap it from?


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Where would you tap it from?


Middle of the run.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

The only branch circuit tap the NEC allows, that I can think of, is for a cooktop to tap from an oven circuit. 210.19(something).

Electrically, it would be fine. Code wise, probably not. I might still do it depending on the exact circumstances.


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

Yup probably fine.. If you were concerned about inspection it's all in the breakers.. Since 8 awg can go on a 50A breaker now I'd change that in panel then in the sub panel have it on a 40A. Problem solved!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You cannot do what you said. the oven is on it's own circuit


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FishinElectrcian said:


> Yup probably fine.. If you were concerned about inspection it's all in the breakers.. Since 8 awg can go on a 50A breaker now I'd change that in panel then in the sub panel have it on a 40A. Problem solved!


If he does that, then it’s not a tap. And therefore he doesn’t have to follow any of the top rules, correct?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You cannot do what you said. the oven is on it's own circuit


It would be on its own circuit, powered out of the sub panel that he installed. Or am I seeing this wrong?


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I don’t see this as being a tap, More of a sub panel. 

If it’s in romex and #8, the main breaker would be a 40. 

Then a 15/20 for the receptacles and a 40 for the range in the sub panel. 

The only time you would have a problem would be during the holidays.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> It would be on its own circuit, powered out of the sub panel that he installed. Or am I seeing this wrong?


You're thinking of it like the circuit was repurposed to feed a subpanel, then the oven is fed from that. But AWG-Dawg intends to leave the oven in line with the circuit and branch off the circuit for a subpanel.

So this would be a branch circuit tap... And the only one that I know of is for cook tops fed from an oven circuit. So Dennis, being chained to the exact letter of the code, says it can't happen.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

210.19(3) 



nec 210.19 said:


> (3) household ranges and cooking appliances.branch-circuit conductors supplying household ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and otherhousehold cooking appliances shall have an ampacity notless than the rating of the branch circuit and not less thanthe maximum load to be served. For ranges of 83⁄4kw ormore rating, the minimum branch-circuit rating shall be 40amperes.exception no. 1: Conductors tapped from a 50-amperebranch circuit supplying electric ranges, wall-mountedelectric ovens, and counter-mounted electric cooking unitsshall have an ampacity of not less than 20 amperes andshall be suffıcient for the load to be served. These tap con-ductors include any conductors that are a part of the leadssupplied with the appliance that are smaller than thebranch-circuit conductors. The taps shall not be longerthan necessary for servicing the appliance.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

CoolWill said:


> You're thinking of it like the circuit was repurposed to feed a subpanel, then the oven is fed from that. But AWG-Dawg intends to leave the oven in line with the circuit and branch off the circuit for a subpanel.



Aaahhhhh, I get it now.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> You're thinking of it like the circuit was repurposed to feed a subpanel, then the oven is fed from that. But AWG-Dawg intends to leave the oven in line with the circuit and branch off the circuit for a subpanel.


So all he has to do is wire it in a slightly different way. He's tapping it from the middle of the run anyway, so either way he is going to have to do some finagling of the cable and possibly some extending of one side..


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I guess if you took the oven circuit and used that for a sub panel then feed the oven it may work but it would depend on the load. The load calc for a single oven is the nameplate rating. 

So what type of load are you adding?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Does the cable have a ground? You can't bond the neutral to the enclosure codewise.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> You're thinking of it like the circuit was repurposed to feed a subpanel, then the oven is fed from that. But AWG-Dawg intends to leave the oven in line with the circuit and branch off the circuit for a subpanel.
> 
> So this would be a branch circuit tap... And the only one that I know of is for cook tops fed from an oven circuit. So Dennis, being chained to the exact letter of the code, says it can't happen.


You’re seeing it as I’m describing it.

Mathematically, there’s no difference in tapping it or feeding a sub-panel first then the oven.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So what type of load are you adding?


 The load is small, just a couple 120v loads for Christmas lights.
The problem is there is no circuits close, other than the Oven to feed them.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Then use the oven wire to feed the sub panel as a feeder and then add things. I would first see what the amp load of the oven is....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ultimately, this isn't any different then adding those circuits onto an existing subpanel without determining the load on it. If you have any worries, replace the breaker feeding the circuit with a new one to better ensure that it will trip on an overload.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Also look at 210.23(B)-- I assume if the oven is direct wired then you may not be allowed to do this because there is only a section for cord & plug



> (B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit
> shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty
> lampholders in other than a dwelling unit(s) or utilization
> equipment in any occupancy. A rating of any one cord-andplug-
> ...


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Awg-Dawg said:


> You’re seeing it as I’m describing it.
> 
> Mathematically, there’s no difference in tapping it or feeding a sub-panel first then the oven.


I may or may not know a guy who has a whole case of box cover units and has added receptacles for over-the-range microwaves for an obscene amount of money...


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> I may or may not know a guy who has a whole case of box cover units and has added receptacles for over-the-range microwaves for an obscene amount of money...


That’s interesting , I’ve seen those for a handy box, but never for a 4” square box.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I may or may not know a guy who has a whole case of box cover units and has added receptacles for over-the-range microwaves for an obscene amount of money...


How does this gay guy that you know splice onto the feeder conductors?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> How does this gay guy that you know splice onto the feeder conductors?


His boyfriend told me that, since there is usually already a j-box, he uses whatever splice is there. Sometimes a wirenut, sometimes a split bolt. One time, he band-sawed a ground bar into pieces with three screw terminals and taped the chit out of them. But this is just coming from his boyfriend, so who knows.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> His boyfriend told me that, since there is usually already a j-box, he uses whatever splice is there. Sometimes a wirenut, sometimes a split bolt. One time, he band-sawed a ground bar into pieces with three screw terminals and taped the chit out of them. But this is just coming from his boyfriend, so who knows.


It just seems a little tight inside of the existing junction box with the outlet in it.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> It just seems a little tight inside of the existing junction box with the outlet in it.


I don't think there were outlets in them. Usually it was a box with taps to a cooktop or oven.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Also look at 210.23(B)-


Ahh, there's your problem right there. You're asking us to look at some silly code book. Most of us operate using common sense.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Ultimately, this isn't any different then adding those circuits onto an existing subpanel without determining the load on it. If you have any worries, replace the breaker feeding the circuit with a new one to better ensure that it will trip on an overload.


I agree.


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

HackWork said:


> If he does that, then it’s not a tap. And therefore he doesn’t have to follow any of the top rules, correct?


Exactly! There aren't really any tap rules to cover adding receptacles to a stove wire. It would be crazy to have a plug tapped off a 40A breaker. They would plug everything into it and melt the house.

The tap rule is for permanently connected wall ovens in tandem with a cooktop. PERMANENTLY connected so the load is regulated and known.

There's also a tap rule for heating conductors, you can go down one wire size and of course the tap rule for splitter boxes.

The hazard here is that there will be a subpanel with very limited capacity that people think they can use. There's also a rule about (I think) the stove being connected to its own branch circuit. Imagine looking in the panel and seeing Stove/ Subpanel on one 2P 40A


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Can you tap an oven circuit and install a small panel?


I think it would depend on the feeder size going to the oven. The last oven circuit I installed in a home required a 60 amp circuit. I forget what the oven's actually ampacity was but the manufacture recommended a 60 amp circuit. Personally I would have never thought of using a branch circuit that was dedicated to an appliance for feeding lights. It's actually very creative. I cant think of any reason why you could not feed a sub panel from that circuit other than the load that would be applied to it. 60 amp sub 40 amp range and some Christmas lights. Are you sure you cant tap into a lighting circuit. That would be better.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Also look at 210.23(B)-- I assume if the oven is direct wired then you may not be allowed to do this because there is only a section for cord & plug


 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit
shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty
lampholders in *other than a dwelling unit(s)*

You can't even tap a range hood off of an oven circuit in residential as I understand it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

FishinElectrcian said:


> The hazard here is that there will be a subpanel with very limited capacity that people think they can use.


 Realistically, this is no different than any other existing subpanel that someone might add circuits to without finding out the load.



> There's also a rule about (I think) the stove being connected to its own branch circuit.


 That might be in the CEC, but not the NEC. You can put an electric stove on a subpanel, it is done all the time. The only thing that I know of is that you can't put an electric stove with a 3-wire feed (neutral bonded to ground in the stove) on a subpanel, it has to be fed from the main panel.



> Imagine looking in the panel and seeing Stove/ Subpanel on one 2P 40A


 The word "stove" should be removed, it should just say "subpanel".

FWIW, electric ranges don't often use what they are rated for. I told people with electric ranges not to use them when their house is powered by the portable generator I was connecting. Then Sandy came thru and many of them reported that they used their range like normal for the 7-9 days they were out of power with their 5,500-6,500w generators, along with the rest of their house.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Yes HackWork .. you can absolutely put an oven on a sub panel. I think most modern ovens do use a 4 wire feed. As for someone overloading the sub panel that could happen regardless of the fact that an oven is connected to it.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)




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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> Yes HackWork .. you can absolutely put an oven on a sub panel. I think most modern ovens do use a 4 wire feed. As for someone overloading the sub panel that could happen regardless of the fact that an oven is connected to it.


You cannot feed a 3-wire bonded neutral range circuit from a subfeed. I mean, you CAN do it, just not to code.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> FWIW, electric ranges don't often use what they are rated for.



No doubt that's true. How often do you have the oven and all four burners on? Maybe once a year at grandma's house? 



I am curious now, maybe I'll clamp the range circuit and see what each draws.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

splatz said:


> No doubt that's true. How often do you have the oven and all four burners on? Maybe once a year at grandma's house?
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious now, maybe I'll clamp the range circuit and see what each draws.


Typical old school range has 2 1500W elements in the oven, and usually 2 - 750W to 1000W small elements, and 2 - 1500W to 2000W large elements.


The oven only uses both elements to bring it up to temperature. So a typical max power draw is 3000W when you first turn it on.
Then it just uses the top element for broil, and the bottom element if your roasting.


If you turned on all 4 elements to high, and turned on the oven from cold, you could get 30 - 40A , but would drop down by 1500w after 5 mins or so once the oven temp came up. Same with current draw on the elements.

ETA ... the current also drops as the element heats up ... same idea as a light bulb, but a bit slower 

Now ... If only I could consistently make a good roast :crying:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

emtnut said:


> Now ... If only I could consistently make a good roast :crying:


Slowcooker?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Bird dog said:


> Slowcooker?


I don't care if she's fast or slow, as long as I get the roast :biggrin:


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

splatz said:


> No doubt that's true. How often do you have the oven and all four burners on? Maybe once a year at grandma's house?
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious now, maybe I'll clamp the range circuit and see what each draws.


Multiples times per week at my house, but never tripped the breaker (40A) and sometimes there is another appliance connected to utility outlet on it


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> FWIW, electric ranges don't often use what they are rated for. I told people with electric ranges not to use them when their house is powered by the portable generator I was connecting. Then Sandy came thru and many of them reported that they used their range like normal for the 7-9 days they were out of power with their 5,500-6,500w generators, along with the rest of their house.


I agree.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> I agree.


We all agree you're the new 360Lax.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> We all agree you're the new 360Lax.


He falls short, I’m thinking 359.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> We all agree you're the new 360Lax.


I see.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> He falls short, I’m thinking 359.


So true....so true.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

An oven is not a range. It will take full power - a range rarely gets close to the load that we are required to provide.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> You cannot feed a 3-wire bonded neutral range circuit from a subfeed. I mean, you CAN do it, just not to code.


I think you meant to say you cant feed a sub panel with a 3-wire. You could however feed a 3 wire oven from a 4 wire sub panel. 
I bet this Oven or Range is fed with the conductor size required and probably not much larger. Christmas is a time for cooking and if the customers don't mind their Christmas lights dimming as the oven cycles. I think the real problem would be excessive X-mas lights or power tools and such.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> I think you meant to say you cant feed a sub panel with a 3-wire. You could however feed a 3 wire oven from a 4 wire sub panel.


No, that is not what I mean to say. I stand by what I said. A 120/240 V appliance, oven, range, or dryer, that has its neutral bonded to the frame in a 3-wire configuration, cannot, by code, be fed from a subpanel.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I know ..I misread .. You don't want to bond any grounds or neutrals after they leave the panel.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I kind of wish I never posted that image of the oven hookup with a bonding strap. I can not think of any situation a branch circuit would have the ground and neutral tied together.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> I kind of wish I never posted that image of the oven hookup with a bonding strap. I can not think of any situation a branch circuit would have the ground and neutral tied together.


It was legal until the 1996 NEC for ovens, ranges and dryers. As long as the circuit came from the main panel.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> No, that is not what I mean to say. I stand by what I said. A 120/240 V appliance, oven, range, or dryer, that has its neutral bonded to the frame in a 3-wire configuration, cannot, by code, be fed from a subpanel.


I might have violated that code this week. :shifty:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I might have violated that code this week. :shifty:











Gotcha beat :whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Gotcha beat :whistling2:


:notworthy:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 137578
> 
> 
> Gotcha beat :whistling2:


Hack that was just my rule of thumb. :biggrin:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I try to avoid helping people because I really only know what I know. ju no ? If the equipment needs a neutral run the neutral.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 137578
> 
> 
> Gotcha beat :whistling2:


It's kind of like forgetting the ground all together.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> It was legal until the 1996 NEC for ovens, ranges and dryers. As long as the circuit came from the main panel.


Oh if forgot it was during the recession contractors could not afford the extra cost. :vs_laugh:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

As long as you use a surface mounted recep. attached to romex. It's all good.. Maybe slide some flex over the nm cable and dive it into the wall some how. lol


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The only thing that I know of is that you can't put an electric stove with a 3-wire feed (neutral bonded to ground in the stove) on a subpanel, it has to be fed from the main panel.





Easy said:


> I think you meant to say you cant feed a sub panel with a 3-wire. You could however feed a 3 wire oven from a 4 wire sub panel.
> I bet this Oven or Range is fed with the conductor size required and probably not much larger. Christmas is a time for cooking and if the customers don't mind their Christmas lights dimming as the oven cycles. I think the real problem would be excessive X-mas lights or power tools and such.





CoolWill said:


> No, that is not what I mean to say. I stand by what I said. A 120/240 V appliance, oven, range, or dryer, that has its neutral bonded to the frame in a 3-wire configuration, cannot, by code, be fed from a subpanel.





CoolWill said:


> It was legal until the 1996 NEC for ovens, ranges and dryers. As long as the circuit came from the main panel.



You guys are reading that wrong. What it says is you can't feed a range or dryer with 3-wires from a subpanel using SE conductors with a bare neutral. If the neutral is insulated in the 3-wire you can feed the stove from a subpanel.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> I try to avoid helping people because I really only know what I know. ju no ? If the equipment needs a neutral run the neutral.


Many of us have fallen into the trap of believing what the guys on the job have said is code and never checking for ourselves. I've heard some whoppers. GFCIs can't feed incandescent lights. Receptacles are to be set to "hammer height". In Michigan, they wire switches to open the neutral. Neutral shocks hit harder than hot wires. Hax is handsome. Main breakers have to be at the top of a panel. No wirenuts allowed in a panel. Aluminum is bad. Electricity is seeking ground. Edit: You can't feed 3-wire dryer circuits from subpanels.

I could go on.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 137578
> 
> 
> Gotcha beat :whistling2:


I did not really pay too good of attention to the photo you posted. It looks like 10-3 romex because of the orange color. If it is romex, you waked off the ground. Why? ha ha.. you joker. It almost looks like some kind of orange smurf tubing when I zoom in. Romex yes ? no?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

A Little Short said:


> You guys are reading that wrong. What it says is you can't feed a range or dryer with 3-wires from a subpanel using SE conductors with a bare neutral. If the neutral is insulated in the 3-wire you can feed the stove from a subpanel.


Well, there you go. You are right. I stand corrected. @Easy, a 3-wire neutral bonded circuit CAN come out of a subpanel. You can't believe everything you read on the internet:shifty:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Many of us have fallen into the trap of believing what the guys on the job have said is code and never checking for ourselves. I've heard some whoppers. GFCIs can't feed incandescent lights. Receptacles are to be set to "hammer height". In Michigan, they wire switches to open the neutral. Neutral shocks hit harder than hot wires. Hax is handsome. Main breakers have to be at the top of a panel. No wirenuts allowed in a panel. Aluminum is bad. Electricity is seeking ground.
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on.


I've never heard of load side of a g.f.c.i
being a problem for incandescent, but I've experienced trouble from fluorescent ballasts. I'm sure regional wives tales do abound. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> Many of us have fallen into the trap of believing what the guys on the job have said is code and never checking for ourselves.




I’d hate to think of how many miles of black tape I’ve used wrapping receptacles and switches up.

The guys who told me, still do it, they said it used to be in there.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

A Little Short said:


> You guys are reading that wrong. What it says is you can't feed a range or dryer with 3-wires from a subpanel using SE conductors with a bare neutral. If the neutral is insulated in the 3-wire you can feed the stove from a subpanel.


Than goodness that rule no longer applies. Similar to a 3 wire feed to a detached structure. No longer applies? Although it is ok to do if city says it's ok? Under special circumstances? I just assume it's up to the head electrical inspector? I still have very strong feelings about ground and neutral isolation. But you know I go by feelings and some instinct. Not enough code. I do know that they both serve a different function. A ground is always required regardless of nuetral or no-neutral.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> Than goodness that rule no longer applies. Similar to a 3 wire feed to a detached structure. No longer applies? Although it is ok to do if city says it's ok? Under special circumstances? I just assume it's up to the head electrical inspector? I still have very strong feelings about ground and neutral isolation. But you know I go by feelings and some instinct. Not enough code. I do know that they both serve a different function. A ground is always required regardless of nuetral or no-neutral.


Yes, it used to be legal to treat a detached building subpanel like a service and bond the neutral. 2008 NEC changed that. Inspectors don't get to call the shots willy nilly. They either enforce the code as adopted, or they amend the code to allow certain exceptions. But it has to be in writing. They can't just make it up. They can let certain things slide if they deem them safe. But at any rate, they can't force you to go above the established, adopted code.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> Yes, it used to be legal to treat a detached building subpanel like a service and bond the neutral. 2008 NEC changed that. Inspectors don't get to call the shots willy nilly. They either enforce the code as adopted, or they amend the code to allow certain exceptions. But it has to be in writing. They can't just make it up. They can let certain things slide if they deem them safe. But at any rate, they can't force you to go above the established, adopted code.


Good point about getting it in writing. Or text or e-mail. Voice recording. Cell Cam or small GoPro cam. Something.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> Good point about getting it in writing. Or text or e-mail. Voice recording. Cell Cam or small GoPro cam. Something.


No, I mean in writing as in on the books down at the building department. For example, I once got flagged on "Using flex for lights" in an office building in some Podunk town. I called the inspector, and he said "Yeah, we hard pipe lights in commercial buildings here." That was news to me. So I went to the department and asked to see their copy of the code and any amendments. It was just the regular NEC. No amendments stating "we hard pipe lights." Subsequently, they were forced to pass the job.

Inspectors will make up chit all the time to see what you'll let them get away with. Sometimes it's just easier to let it go. Other times, like replacing 1000 feet of installed MC with "hard pipe", you have to call them out.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Hax is handsome.


He is :brows:




Easy said:


> I did not really pay too good of attention to the photo you posted. It looks like 10-3 romex because of the orange color. If it is romex, you waked off the ground. Why? ha ha.. you joker. It almost looks like some kind of orange smurf tubing when I zoom in. Romex yes ? no?


The customer called me because they were getting a new dryer but wanted it in a new position and wanted me to move the existing outlet about 10' away. So I brought some 10-3 and a 4-prong outlet with me and find a 3-prong outlet when I arrive.

So I cut off the ground and jumped the neutral to ground in the outlet. This way when the new dryer arrives they will put a 4-wire cord on it.

What I did was the same electrically as if I installed a 3-prong outlet and they installed a 3-wire cord and bonded neutral to ground in the dryer.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> No, I mean in writing as in on the books down at the building department. For example, I once got flagged on "Using flex for lights" in an office building in some Podunk town. I called the inspector, and he said "Yeah, we hard pipe lights in commercial buildings here." That was news to me. So I went to the department and asked to see their copy of the code and any amendments. It was just the regular NEC. No amendments stating "we hard pipe lights." Subsequently, they were forced to pass the job.
> 
> Inspectors will make up chit all the time to see what you'll let them get away with. Sometimes it's just easier to let it go. Other times, like replacing 1000 feet of installed MC with "hard pipe", you have to call them out.


I usually try to coddle the inspection department ahead of time if I'm at all in doubt. I would ask them if it's ok to do such and such. In the example you provided I would have never guessed that flex was not a viable way to feed light fixtures in a commercial setting. I would have question them on that as well and as you say have them put it down in writing and get a copy for my records.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> He is :brows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point. You had an existing 3 wire dryer receptacle and you tried to upgrade them to a 4 wire? Even with bonding the gr. and Neutral the plug configuration is different than a 3 wire? Were you able to plug in the old 3-prog into a 4 prog receptacle?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Would you be tapping it? Or would you be repurposing part of the existing cable to now feed a sub panel? And then subsequently feeding the oven circuit from that sub panel?
> 
> Doing it that way might put you over the calculated load, but it would work otherwise.


Hax had this solved in the 5th post. Feed the sub then feed the oven out of the sub. All legal.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> He is :brows:


:no::no:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


What I do when I see someone pretty is, I stare, I smile then when I get tired I put the mirror down.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> What I do when I see someone pretty is, I stare, I smile then when I get tired I put the mirror down.


I don't see.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> What I do when I see someone pretty is, I stare, I smile then when I get tired I put the mirror down.


Is mirror a New Jersey colloquialism for a picture of me and my electrical credentials?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Service Call said:


> I don’t see this as being a tap, More of a sub panel.
> 
> If it’s in romex and #8, the main breaker would be a 40.
> 
> ...


Why not set a small sub panel next to the main panel and feed it proper. Use #2 copper a short nipple into the panel and then re-rout the range cable if needed. Heck you might not even need to move the range "oven" cable at all.
As I see it .. most services are located at the garage or maybe outside a laundry room. At least we know it's an outside wall. Feed the lights from that point. Maybe sling some EMT up under the eaves and be done with it. lol


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Easy said:


> *Why not set a small sub panel next to the main panel and feed it proper. Use #2 copper a short nipple into the panel and then re-rout the range cable if needed.* Heck you might not even need to move the range "oven" cable at all.
> As I see it .. most services are located at the garage or maybe outside a laundry room. At least we know it's an outside wall. Feed the lights from that point. Maybe sling some EMT up under the eaves and be done with it. lol


Hey, hey,hey! That will be enough of your smart ideas!:wink:

But likely it doesn't give him the access he needs to power in the kitchen area.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I understand. Sometimes the small jobs end up to be painful ones. I really don't see any solution. Have we even established that the OVEN cable is a 4 wire or a 3 wire ?


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> I understand. Sometimes the small jobs end up to be painful ones. I really don't see any solution. Have we even established that the OVEN cable is a 4 wire or a 3 wire ?


There isn’t access to the panel without cutting drywall.

It’s actually a range receptacle, I said Oven in the OP. 

It’s a 4 wire feed to the receptacle also.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Awg-Dawg said:


> There isn’t access to the panel without cutting drywall.
> 
> It’s actually a range receptacle, I said Oven in the OP.
> 
> It’s a 4 wire feed to the receptacle also.


With all that it actually seems like something that would meet code.
I see lots of sub panels fed with #6 and you could actually feed a sub
with what ever you want as long as you size the OCPD. The 4 wire is your only salvation. I'd go for it if you are ok with the load. If anyone was to add circuits later it would be on them and not you.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

In other words any panel can become overloaded.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Easy said:


> Why not set a small sub panel next to the main panel and feed it proper. Use #2 copper a short nipple into the panel and then re-rout the range cable if needed. Heck you might not even need to move the range "oven" cable at all.
> As I see it .. most services are located at the garage or maybe outside a laundry room. At least we know it's an outside wall. Feed the lights from that point. Maybe sling some EMT up under the eaves and be done with it. lol


You're looking in the right direction. But to me this thread was just an exercise in "could you if you really wanted to?" more than "what is ideal."


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I kind of figured that this was a spoof "exercise". I think it's great that we can talk about it and expand our knowledge about obscure situations. I think it took some real imagination to have even come up with the idea.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Easy said:


> I kind of figured that this was a spoof "exercise". I think it's great that we can talk about it and expand our knowledge about obscure situations. I think it took some real imagination to have even come up with the idea.


It’s a real scenario.

It’s for a friend , I’m going to do it and see how it plays out.

Other than dimming the outside lights occasionally, I doubt anything will even be noticed.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Awg-Dawg said:


> It’s a real scenario.
> 
> It’s for a friend , I’m going to do it and see how it plays out.
> 
> Other than dimming the outside lights occasionally, I doubt anything will even be noticed.


I really don't think you will have any issues with the lights dimming. Best of luck.


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## Wirenut951 (Aug 3, 2014)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Can you tap an oven circuit and install a small panel?


Sounds Hacky.


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## RodDriver (Nov 9, 2019)

You wouldn't tap it. You could probably reroute the cable to a subpanel provided you meet all the code for doing so. If you still want an electric range you are going to run into load issues though. Your entire subpanel will be limited to the range circuit amperage. If you then want to branch off that panel for the range, you are going to have issues.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Wirenut951 said:


> Sounds Hacky.


I think so too, so what do you think is the answer?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

RodDriver said:


> You wouldn't tap it. You could probably reroute the cable to a subpanel provided you meet all the code for doing so. If you still want an electric range you are going to run into load issues though. Your entire subpanel will be limited to the range circuit amperage. If you then want to branch off that panel for the range, you are going to have issues.


If you take a load calc to be gospel. But down here on Earth, NEC load calcs are generous, sometimes laughably so. If you have a range circuit that is so tight in tolerance that a couple of general purpose lighting circuits overload it, it was too small to begin with.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> If you take a load calc to be gospel. But down here on Earth, NEC load calcs are generous, sometimes laughably so. If you have a range circuit that is so tight in tolerance that a couple of general purpose lighting circuits overload it, it was too small to begin with.


NEC load calcs were clearly written by people in the copper industry, no doubt with some cash stuffed envelopes to speed things along.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Bird dog said:


> Tap rules in the NEC. Should be in the index in the back.




NEC hasn’t updated the index in years. Should be deleted. Try using it. All the pages are wrong. The real index now is the TOC and the numbering system.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I think you could use a small ATS or some kind of a load sensing relay to disrupt the massive inrush of power you will see at your sub panel when the LED Christmas lights kick in.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Easy said:


> I think a small ATS and a sub panel.


ATS? For this application?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

HackWork said:


> ATS? For this application?


:vs_laugh: Maybe that is a bit overboard.


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## RodDriver (Nov 9, 2019)

What kind of lights are you talking where you can't just use a plug? Are you Clark Grizwald?


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