# What size wire? 200 amp service



## Arrow3030

I prefer 00. I work with a guy who doesn't like money and would rather work harder than needed. He insists on 000.

The guy even went over my head and changed my will call for tomorrow's job.

We use thwn-2 copper in RMC out here.

Am I crazy or was that a **** move?

What size do you use?


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## eddy current

In Canada we have a table that specifies wire size depending on calculated load. We also must label the panel with the max load.

As per the CEC, If your calculated load is more than 184 amps, you must run 000. 

No such requirement in the NEC?


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## HackWork

Using copper is silly, and upsizing it for no reason is stupid. Ask your friend for a code reference. 

We use 4/0 Aluminum, because that's what good electrician do.


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## Arrow3030

NEC use to have a table. Now it's a calculation. The results are the same assuming there isn't an ampacity adjustment/correction needed.


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## Arrow3030

Asking him for a reference is pointless. 

I asked him a year ago and he had nothing intelligent to say. He did manage to talk a lot about it though.

I'm not sure but I think our green book wants 3 inch RMC for 0000 which is why no one uses it.


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## Dennis Alwon

2" conduit will handle 3- 4/0 aluminum conductors. Assuming your service is a residence then 2/0 copper is fine.


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## Cow

Arrow3030 said:


> I prefer 00. I work with a guy who doesn't like money and would rather work harder than needed. He insists on 000.
> 
> Bastard even went over my head and changed my will call for tomorrow's job.
> 
> We use thwn-2 copper in RMC out here.
> 
> Am I crazy or was that a **** move?
> 
> What size do you use?


It's crazy to put copper up a residential mast when the miles of overhead line the power company runs is aluminum.

We use 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL, we keep a big master reel of the stuff at the shop to cut chunks off of.


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## Arrow3030

Arrow3030 said:


> Asking him for a reference is pointless.
> 
> I asked him a year ago and he had nothing intelligent to say. He did manage to talk a lot about it though.
> 
> I'm not sure but I think our green book wants 3 inch RMC for 0000 which is why no one uses it.


I'm wrong. I checked the poco book.There's no reason not use aluminum. I hate finding out I've been blindly following someones standards for years. 

It's odd because I'm all about aluminum feeders. However I never really considered the drop being other than copper. 

I'm gonna use AL next time and see how poco, inspectors and peers react. For the GEC too! Snooty California wine country might suddenly burst in flames again if I do. I'll blame hax


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## Arrow3030

Cow said:


> Arrow3030 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer 00. I work with a guy who doesn't like money and would rather work harder than needed. He insists on 000.
> 
> Bastard even went over my head and changed my will call for tomorrow's job.
> 
> We use thwn-2 copper in RMC out here.
> 
> 
> Am I crazy or was that a **** move?
> 
> What size do you use?
> 
> 
> 
> It's crazy to put copper up a residential mast when the miles of overhead line the power company runs is aluminum.
> 
> We use 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL, we keep a big master reel of the stuff at the shop to cut chunks off of.
Click to expand...

Where are you Cow? I'm in Sonoma county California


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## HackWork

#2 Al for the water pipe GEC. You'll have to use #6 copper for the ground rods since you can't use aluminum within 18" of the earth.


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## Arrow3030

HackWork said:


> #2 Al for the water pipe GEC. You'll have to use #6 copper for the ground rods since you can't use aluminum within 18" of the earth.


Saves me from looking at 250166. Thanks Hax

Funny you mention #6 for the grod. I got reported to the super 3 years ago for not running #4 HAHA


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## HackWork

Arrow3030 said:


> Saves me from looking at 250166. Thanks Hax
> 
> Funny you mention #6 for the grod. I got reported to the super 3 years ago for not running #4 HAHA


There is a code article that specifically says that you don't have to run larger than #6 to the ground rods. 

Demand these people show you a code article for the bullcrap they spew.


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## macmikeman

HackWork said:


> There is a code article that specifically says that you don't have to run larger than #6 to the ground rods.
> 
> Demand these people show you a code article for the bullcrap they spew.


Oh , its a code you want huh? Well, I'll give you a code. 422.14. I wish all you handy men would quit being so degenerate and sign up for a membership in the IAEI like me. I'm on the same par as all the very smartest and bestest AHJ's out there. Cause I got my membership card and a shiny whistle.


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## telsa

Arrow3030 said:


> Where are you Cow? I'm in Sonoma county California


Wait.

I thought that everything had been burnt over.


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## sbrn33

HackWork said:


> #2 Al for the water pipe GEC. You'll have to use #6 copper for the ground rods since you can't use aluminum within 18" of the earth.


Do you use #2 solid aluminum? My supply house stocks it but I have never used it.


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## HackWork

sbrn33 said:


> Do you use #2 solid aluminum? My supply house stocks it but I have never used it.


I use the same stranded black #2 XHHW that I would use for a 100A service. I typically keep a 75' coil of it on the truck for GEC's and if I have to extend the feeders during a 100A panel change.


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## Arrow3030

telsa said:


> Arrow3030 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you Cow? I'm in Sonoma county California
> 
> 
> 
> Wait.
> 
> I thought that everything had been burnt over.
Click to expand...

Not yet. I'm working on it.


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## sbrn33

4/0 aluminum all day long. The only time I use 2/0 copper is if I have to squeeze it in a smaller conduit. As when I need a tighter 90 to get into the panel.


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## frenchelectrican

Over here in my area ., the 200 amp residentails typically use 4/0 alum and some case if have to use copper for 200 amp residentails then use 2/0 

but for GEC all copper no alum due that size service typically have brick or cement wall and it will eat up alum conductor if not done right.


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## HackWork

frenchelectrican said:


> Over here in my area ., the 200 amp residentails typically use 4/0 alum and some case if have to use copper for 200 amp residentails then use 2/0
> 
> but for GEC all copper no alum due that size service typically have *brick or cement wall and it will eat up alum conductor if not done right*.


Use insulated aluminum (XHHW) and you don't have to worry about that. Now that copper prices are going up, it's widening the gap even more. Using copper when not necessary is eating into profits bigtime.


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## MTW

In my area, this would not even be discussed. We use aluminum for practically everything residential and commerical - service entrance, laterals, feeders, SEU, SER, URD, you name it. If it's aluminum wire or cable, we use it. We recently did a 1200 amp service for a condo building and used 750 AL. If it was copper it would have been 600 kcmil and literally cost 10X as much both in material and labor cost. Using copper is simply throwing money away for no reason at all.


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## MTW

HackWork said:


> I use the same stranded black #2 XHHW that I would use for a 100A service. I typically keep a 75' coil of it on the truck for GEC's and if I have to extend the feeders during a 100A panel change.


I have a few scraps of #2 SER I use for that purpose.


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## frenchelectrican

HackWork said:


> Use insulated aluminum (XHHW) and you don't have to worry about that. Now that copper prices are going up, it's widening the gap even more. Using copper when not necessary is eating into profits bigtime.


very true Hackwork., I am aware of cost of copper is going up allready.

I can use it but our inspectors are not too keen about it due majorty of GEC are routed outside. 

I am aware of half meter ( 18 inches ) restriction of concant of earth so it can play a little there.


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## elecwired

Personal preference some electricians like the copper and some like the alum. Me personally I will take the copper any day over alum because when using the alum you must double the wire size from the copper for the same amperage being operated. Than you have the pasting to prevent oxidation on alum wiring. No thanks keep your alum twice the size of the copper wires.


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## MTW

elecwired said:


> Personal preference some electricians like the copper and some like the alum. Me personally I will take the copper any day over alum because when using the alum you must double the wire size from the copper for the same amperage being operated. Than you have the pasting to prevent oxidation on alum wiring. No thanks keep your alum twice the size of the copper wires.


That is absolutely false. Who told you that? It's obvious you have never had to size wire in your life, because you would know that you never have to double the size for AL wire. Usually it's about 1/4 to 1/3 larger, but never double.

The small amount of time it takes to apply antioxidant is trivial compared to massive increase in cost of copper wire.


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## HackWork

elecwired said:


> Personal preference some electricians like the copper and some like the alum. Me personally I will take the copper any day over alum because when using the alum you must double the wire size from the copper for the same amperage being operated. Than you have the pasting to prevent oxidation on alum wiring. No thanks keep your alum twice the size of the copper wires.


This is incorrect.

You do not double the wire size.

"Pasting" is unnecessary. But doing it takes seconds.

Again, it's not twice the wire size. But it is twice the price for copper, or triple, and sometimes even quadruple.


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## electricguy

We have to use 250 mcm Al because of the TTR ratings


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## wildleg

I'm curious about this:



> About Arrow3030
> What is your electrical related field/trade:
> California certified general electrician
> General Location
> California


this makes it sound like someone who knows at least something about the code, owns a code book, and knows how to look up simple things like ampacities.

were you lying when you typed that stuff in ?


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## Cow

elecwired said:


> Personal preference some electricians like the copper and some like the alum. Me personally I will take the copper any day over alum because when using the alum you must double the wire size from the copper for the same amperage being operated. Than you have the pasting to prevent oxidation on alum wiring. No thanks keep your alum twice the size of the copper wires.


Frankly, I think you're stuck in your ways and haven't even bothered to fact check yourself. So I did it for you.

Taken from Allied Wire and Cables website, prices from Platt:

3/0 XHHW copper .6000 O.D. 564lbs/1000 ft $3.49/ft rated for 200 amps

250 XHHW alum .6530 O.D. 296lbs/1000 ft $0.79/ft rated for 205 amps

So your argument for the typical 200 amp service or feeder is you'd rather use copper over aluminum because aluminum has a .0530" larger O.D., because it's 52% of the weight of copper and it's 22% of the cost of copper right now. Modern aluminum doesn't require antioxidant either. 

Did you notice the O.D. was less than a 1/16" difference? 

So what was the argument you were trying to make again?


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## HackWork

The "aluminum" wire used today isn't aluminum like they used in the old days. It's an alloy that expands and contracts much less.

Anyone using copper for feeders is doing it for "feel good" reasons, usually based off of ignorance.


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## MTW

Cow said:


> Frankly, I think you're stuck in your ways and haven't even bothered to fact check yourself. So I did it for you.
> 
> Taken from Allied Wire and Cables website, prices from Platt:
> 
> 3/0 XHHW copper .6000 O.D. 564lbs/1000 ft $3.49/ft rated for 200 amps
> 
> 250 XHHW alum .6530 O.D. 296lbs/1000 ft $0.79/ft rated for 205 amps
> 
> So your argument for the typical 200 amp service or feeder is you'd rather use copper over aluminum because aluminum has a .0530" larger O.D., because it's 52% of the weight of copper and it's 22% of the cost of copper right now. Modern aluminum doesn't require antioxidant either.
> 
> Did you notice the O.D. was less than a 1/16" difference?
> 
> So what was the argument you were trying to make again?


Your math must be wrong. He said it was double and I believe him.


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## Navyguy

When I do a service I always provide a CU and AL price and let the client decide. For some reason some people hear AL and they get all stupid about it.

For the record 3/0 CU and 4/0 AL

Cheers

John


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## Arrow3030

wildleg said:


> I'm curious about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Arrow3030
> What is your electrical related field/trade:
> California certified general electrician
> General Location
> California
> 
> 
> 
> this makes it sound like someone who knows at least something about the code, owns a code book, and knows how to look up simple things like ampacities.
> 
> were you lying when you typed that stuff in ?
Click to expand...

What makes you think I'm lying?

Maybe you're confused by my post? I never asked if 00 is okay for a 200 amp resi. I asked if the other guy is a jerk for demanding 000 and what you use.

I like this site bc I get corrected all the time by people who interpret the NEC. I am a student of the code looking for kindred folk.

I can assure you that looking up allowable ampacities is about as far as my coworkers go. We all know there's a lot more to sizing a conductor to a circuit than that.


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## Majewski

The only thing about cu I like is it's smaller, but ****, it's heavier, costs more......nah al is better in many ways.


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## lighterup

Navyguy said:


> When I do a service I always provide a CU and AL price and let the client decide. For some reason some people hear AL and they get all stupid about it.
> 
> For the record 3/0 CU and 4/0 AL
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John


John...I appreciate you buddy and I believe this is the first time
I've seen you post something I disagree with (I still appreciate
you)

Know friggin way am I going to start letting my customers 
choose electrical equipment or products..*Pandora's Box*
baby! not to mention creating a Monster


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## HackWork

Navyguy said:


> When I do a service I always provide a CU and AL price and let the client decide. For some reason some people hear AL and they get all stupid about it.
> 
> John


Your second sentence is the problem. Customers don't know the truth, only what they heard.

When you offer both copper and aluminum, it makes the customer think that copper is better. Why else would it be on the menu (at a higher price no less) unless it was better?

So now the customer pays more for what they think is a premium upgrade that will keep their family safe.


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## eddy current

HackWork said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> You do not double the wire size.
> 
> *"Pasting" is unnecessary. * But doing it takes seconds.
> 
> Again, it's not twice the wire size. But it is twice the price for copper, or triple, and sometimes even quadruple.


I agree it isn't necessary with new aluminum, but is it not code in the NEC to still use it?

Still a code requirement in the CEC for any size stranded aluminum, unless the termination is approved for use without compound and is so marked. 
CEC 12-116(2)


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## HackWork

eddy current said:


> I agree it isn't necessary with new aluminum, but is it not code in the NEC to still use it?
> 
> Still a code requirement in the CEC for any size stranded aluminum, unless the termination is approved for use without compound and is so marked.
> CEC 12-116(2)


There is no NEC code requirement to use it. 

On a bit of another note, I always found it odd that the same people who said that noalox was so important to use... don't use it on copper themselves. It's an aluminum lug, right?


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## Switched

HackWork said:


> Use insulated aluminum (XHHW) and you don't have to worry about that. Now that copper prices are going up, it's widening the gap even more. *Using copper when not necessary is eating into profits bigtime.*


This is only true if you are not charging for it....

People have a perception that copper is king, and that aluminum is an inferior product. Give people the options: $xxx Copper $xx Aluminum. 

Two different products, two different prices, no reason to loose money if you are installing a more expensive product if you are charging more or said product.


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## HackWork

Switched said:


> This is only true if you are not charging for it....
> 
> People have a perception that copper is king, and that aluminum is an inferior product. Give people the options: $xxx Copper $xx Aluminum.
> 
> Two different products, two different prices, no reason to loose money if you are installing a more expensive product if you are charging more or said product.


I understand what you are saying, and you are definitely correct in what you said. But I look at it completely differently. If you could sell the customer on a (for example) $2,800 service upgrade, then it doesn't matter whether you installed copper or not. There's a million other ways to sell them on that service change at that price. 

So why not instal aluminum and pocket that extra $250 in pure profit?

I feel the same way about expensive panels. I would never install a QO or CH-CH. I could sell the customer the same way on a Homeline or BR, the end result will be exactly the same for them, and I will have kept that extra money instead of putting it into vaporware.

This is just my opinion and I know it goes against many other people's.


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## Navyguy

HackWork said:


> Your second sentence is the problem. Customers don't know the truth, only what they heard.
> 
> When you offer both copper and aluminum, it makes the customer think that copper is better. Why else would it be on the menu (at a higher price no less) unless it was better?
> 
> So now the customer pays more for what they think is a premium upgrade that will keep their family safe.


It is not an problem, it is an option. I also attach a link to an article I wrote stating that AL wire is perfectly safe (https://trustedpros.ca/articles/electrical/aluminum-wire---whats-all-the-hype )

We have some insurance companies here that will not approve homeowner policy if there is AL wire used, just like they will not approve a 100 amp service, must be 200 Amp, etc.

I am not a big "up seller", I generally let people make decisions based on a full range of information. Having said all of that, I don't think I have done a copper service in about 9 months or so, everything has been AL wire.

Cheers

John


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## sbrn33

Navyguy said:


> We have some insurance companies here that will not approve homeowner policy if there is AL wire used, just like they will not approve a 100 amp service, must be 200 Amp, etc.
> 
> John


This one more reason why I am not moving to CA with Hax.


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## Navyguy

sbrn33 said:


> This one more reason why I am not moving to CA with Hax.


I think we are running out of land up here anyway, so we could probably take one of you but not both... Sorry :smile:

Cheers

John


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## HackWork

Navyguy said:


> We have some insurance companies here that will not approve homeowner policy if there is AL wire used, just like they will not approve a 100 amp service, must be 200 Amp, etc.


 Are you talking about the service entrance cable or the branch circuits?


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## Navyguy

HackWork said:


> Are you talking about the service entrance cable or the branch circuits?


Either / or / both...

A lot of people have been running AL for stove cable, which is fine by code but than are having it removed later because of the issue with the insurance company (ies).

Some don't care about the service cables, but won't allow the branch circuits, hers just don't care if it is been "inspected" and is found to be OK regardless of branch or service cable and other simply don't care.

It is a real moving target up here.

Cheers

John


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## Voltron

4/0 Aluminum :thumbsup:


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## Silver Hill Group

Cow said:


Cow: We use 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL said:


> Does it mean, 4/0-> (hot),4/0-> (hot), 2/0-> (Neutral), (based on all AL.)?
> I was told by an experienced electrician that it can use #3 copper for Neutral of 200A service as well.
> Is it Ok #3 copper for Neutral?
> Thanks:smile:


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## dronai

NM AL #12-2 and #10-2 for sale cheap if someone wants it


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## Quickservice

Willh5070 said:


> Hello! Guys, which Wire Stripping Machine do you use?


Very very sharp Kershaw pocket knife. :smile:


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## kb1jb1

NEC 310.15. 2/0 Thwn-2 at 75 degrees is 175 amps. @90 degrees it is 195 amps. Do they make a 90 degree main circuit breaker? Most of the breakers I see are 75 degree. So if it is for commercial then you need 3/0. If it is for residential then you can use 2/0 for a service. NEC 310.15 (B) 1. Allows for a 83% derating. Some areas the utility company will not let you use Aluminum because of the salt air. Only copper.


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## kb1jb1

Navyguy said:


> When I do a service I always provide a CU and AL price and let the client decide. For some reason some people hear AL and they get all stupid about it.
> 
> For the record 3/0 CU and 4/0 AL
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John


I also always quote both Aluminum and copper. I explain the difference and most people opt for the Aluminum. Personally I like to use Aluminum because it is lighter and bends easier.


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## Speedy Petey

Hey guys, keep in mind this is a 2-1/2 year old thread resurrected by a #%&*# spammer.


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