# Mud rings



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

So I don't do a tremendous amount of work with studs and drywall so this may be a stupid question. Do you use 1/2" mud rings with 1/2" drywall and 5/8" rings for 5/8" drywall? It seems like a straight up obvious answer but every time I do it that way I regret it. I think I want to try 3/4" for 5/8" and 5/8" for 1/2". 


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Use 1/8" thicker than the wall board. The 8/32 screws will hold the drywall off the studs by a fraction, plus unless you're super perfect, when you nail the box on it's almost always pushed past the face of the stud.

Edit. This goes for wood, steal studs use the same size.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Mshow1323 said:


> Use 1/8" thicker than the wall board. The 8/32 screws will hold the drywall off the studs by a fraction, plus unless you're super perfect, when you nail the box on it's almost always pushed past the face of the stud.
> 
> Edit. This goes for wood, steal studs use the same size.



I was referring to steel studs actually. Getting the same size never seems to turn out right


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## markbrady (Jun 2, 2014)

with steel go a size up


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

The raise is the overall measurement from the back of the ring to the face of the ring. Therefore, the OP is correct, 5/8 raised rings are perfect for 1/2" drywall and 3/4" raised rings are perfect for 5/8" drywall.
It's a novice error to use 1/2" raised rings on 1/2" drywall.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

A lot of guys go up one size with their mud rings. I always keep it the same. Either way has never been an issue with me.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The worst thing using steel rings is if it ends up sticking out of the drywall. Make sure not to mistake a 3/4 instead of where you were going to put a 5/8'' in for 1/2'' drywall. You can't grind off the metal ones.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I go up an 1/8" always, it doesn't matter if it's steel or wood studs. I've never had an issue. When I used to use the same size mud ring as sheetrock, they always seemed to be recessed in the wall a 1/4". Always hated that!

Some of the other guys in our shop still do it that way because they're scared the ring will stick out of the wall. It's not an issue though, so go for it Pony!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I ran into a friend of mine in a supply house a few months ago. He had all of his MC, boxes and 1/2" mud rings. He's kind of a rope guy so, I tried to be nice and help him out.
I asked him what kind of job he was working on that was using 3/8" drywall.
Nope, it was 1/2" drywall he said. I asked him why he bought the wrong mud rings and mentioned that they would be too shallow.
He just couldn't admit he was wrong.
I saw him a week later and asked him how the rings worked out...
I don't think he will do it again.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't understand where you guys are going on this.....

A box set back is easy to deal with. In fact we're allowed to do so via 314.20, and followed up by 406.5



> *314.20* In Wall or Ceiling. In walls or ceilings with a
> surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncom-
> bustible material, boxes employing a flush-type cover or
> faceplate shall be installed so that the front of the box,
> ...


4 sq's w/side straps are the usual 'box of choice' wood or steel frame

The 1/4" is purposely configured because the device install will suck the ring forward sandwiching* less *than the allowed *1/4" *

The other way round is not so good ........jmho

~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have never oversized a plaster ring and never will. Like the chicken dude says, drywall is non-combustible. What is there to regret if the ring is slightly recessed? Wiring devices don't come with 1/4" screws.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I use the same size as the drywall going on. There is absolutely nothing worse than a plaster ring that sticks out of the wall. I am OK with someone that wants to up size theirs but there is really no reason to.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

99cents said:


> I have never oversized a plaster ring and never will. Like the chicken dude says, drywall is non-combustible. What is there to regret if the ring is slightly recessed? Wiring devices don't come with 1/4" screws.


Ditto. I'd just as soon have it recess a bit.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

I prefer to go one size up. It is so nice to cinch a device up to a flush ring.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

For those that are against it, have you tried it yet? 

What finally pushed me to try it was every single device on every single job that we had used standard depth rings on, they were all at least an 1/8" recessed, but more commonly a solid 1/4" deep in the wall. I've never seen a flush ring when it's the same depth as the rock. Have any of you?

To answer the other guys question about why you'd want to? Well, where I'm at the drywallers aren't so good about cutting nice tight holes to the rings and I don't care for my devices sucking back inside the wall. I've used Caddy device retainer rings to shim them out before but I don't want to have to shim my devices when it's just as simple to buy taller rings.

Like Teco said, tightening up a device to a flush ring is one of the simple things that makes my day go better.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I thought our drywallers were bad. You're saying that they're cutting holes so big that the ears on the devices don't touch drywall?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I've done it both ways but going up 1/8 works a lot better.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

That ain't a mud ring, this is a mud ring!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

eddy current said:


> That ain't a mud ring, this is a mud ring!



Actually that is a switch ring, and a mud ring is the round one for fixtures.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

When they are square I call them tile rings. They work better for block.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Around here we call all of them plaster rings. In canada our switches are 347 volt which require a special box. No mud ring available for 347v switches.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

cabletie said:


> When they are square I call them tile rings. They work better for block.


Was the only 2" rise I could get. I prefer the other style


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

99cents said:


> I thought our drywallers were bad. You're saying that they're cutting holes so big that the ears on the devices don't touch drywall?


That's common practice around here. If you don't go up one size on your mud ring, you have to shim EVERY SINGLE DEVICE on the job to be flush with the drywall. That is a HUGE waste of time. I have up sized mud rings for over 15 years on literally hundreds of jobs and over ten thousand boxes. I have not had one problem with the mud rings sticking out past the drywall. It is not physically possible. Just try it and see for yourself. I had a drywall guy try to sneak a 1/2" piece in a few times but the specs on the job called for all 5/8" rock. He didn't get away with it.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

One trick I learned from the old EKR site was to use solid #12 for a spacer when the rock is cut to big. 

Wrap the #12 around your Philips head screw driver tightly. Slide it off and use your dikes to trim to length. 

The caddy device levelers are nicer, but if you just have to do one in a pinch, the copper works well. 

Hey, how come ET does not have a tricks of the trade section?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

cabletie said:


> One trick I learned from the old EKR site was to use solid #12 for a spacer when the rock is cut to big.
> 
> Wrap the #12 around your Philips head screw driver tightly. Slide it off and use your dikes to trim to length.
> 
> ...



Probably because that ''trick'' (which I have been performing for 40 years now) is an NEC code violation. Listed Box extenders are the only acceptable way to repair a box set too deep, or the drywall cut too large..


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

btharmy said:


> That's common practice around here. If you don't go up one size on your mud ring, you have to shim EVERY SINGLE DEVICE on the job to be flush with the drywall. That is a HUGE waste of time. I have up sized mud rings for over 15 years on literally hundreds of jobs and over ten thousand boxes. I have not had one problem with the mud rings sticking out past the drywall. It is not physically possible. Just try it and see for yourself. I had a drywall guy try to sneak a 1/2" piece in a few times but the specs on the job called for all 5/8" rock. He didn't get away with it.


 Good grief.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

99cents said:


> I thought our drywallers were bad. You're saying that they're cutting holes so big that the ears on the devices don't touch drywall?


 I didn't know drywallers ever cut the hole tight.


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## mdnitedrftr (Aug 21, 2013)

cabletie said:


> Hey, how come ET does not have a tricks of the trade section?


We do.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f14/tips-tricks-1214/


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Actually that is a switch ring, and a mud ring is the round one for fixtures.


The round ones are ceiling rings.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Don't you love it when mouth breathers like drywallers dictate how we do things?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The round ones are ceiling rings.


Yep, I heard em called that one also.........:thumbsup: I put some in the walls of a block house a couple of days ago for exterior entry doors, did I mess up since it is not a ceiling?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Yep, I heard em called that one also.........:thumbsup: I put some in the walls of a block house a couple of days ago for exterior entry doors, did I mess up since it is not a ceiling?


I thought that since you came from these parts you knew the regional slang for them.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

jrannis said:


> I thought that since you came from these parts you knew the regional slang for them.


That was forty years ago... :laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

The problem I've run into is that you have to upsize the mud rings from the supply house but the ones from M***rds are sized properly. Easiest just to get them from the supply house and upsize them.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I use the same size rings as the drywall going on. I've worked on jobs where the foreman wanted upsize, and we did it, and it worked fine. But I stick with same size. And I do that trick with the coil of wire, except I use scrap bits of ground, which in Canada is #14 uninsulated if the cable is either #14 or #12. Put a 6" driver bit in my drill, stick the wire in the gaps where the chuck holds the bit, and spin the wire into a tight spring. And if it's a code violation in Canada I'm not aware of it, and I also don't care. Great trick.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I was referring to steel studs actually. Getting the same size never seems to turn out right
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Are you supporting the boxes using the adjacent stud, as well?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

had rough day, maybe im confused, but are we talking about commercial jods where the mud ring is covered by the drywall and the covered with mud including half the box?


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## Electron Transporter (Dec 31, 2014)

Why not just use adjustable mud rings? Sure they cost a bit more but they work great especially in walls that have tile or a backsplash. We had an office we did last year that had a combo of wood backed /stainless steel back splash thing that was another 1" over the drywall. Worked great and took the guesswork out of it.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

papaotis said:


> had rough day, maybe im confused, but are we talking about commercial jods where the mud ring is covered by the drywall and the covered with mud including half the box?


Yes, and if it were not for the screwed up finisher, they would have a different name for them.:thumbsup:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

i hear ya, RIV, but i dont see what the problem is on having the mud ring too far back or a little crooked when it gets filled with MUD anyway, eliminating any gaps of 1/8" or 1/4" and enevenness ( unless the finisher is really bad)


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

B-Nabs said:


> I use the same size rings as the drywall going on. I've worked on jobs where the foreman wanted upsize, and we did it, and it worked fine. But I stick with same size. And I do that trick with the coil of wire, except I use scrap bits of ground, which in Canada is #14 uninsulated if the cable is either #14 or #12. Put a 6" driver bit in my drill, stick the wire in the gaps where the chuck holds the bit, and spin the wire into a tight spring. And if it's a code violation in Canada I'm not aware of it, and I also don't care. Great trick.


I'll do the same thing, but with a Buchanan (ground crimp) cut them down with dikes if necessary.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

papaotis said:


> i hear ya, RIV, but i dont see what the problem is on having the mud ring too far back or a little crooked when it gets filled with MUD anyway, eliminating any gaps of 1/8" or 1/4" and enevenness ( unless the finisher is really bad)


I just redid my kitchen and what I have found is that for one half inch drywall use one half inch ring. My finishers didn't use an ounce of mud there...they only screwed up the ceiling.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

papaotis said:


> i hear ya, RIV, but i dont see what the problem is on having the mud ring too far back or a little crooked when it gets filled with MUD anyway, eliminating any gaps of 1/8" or 1/4" and enevenness ( unless the finisher is really bad)


Right? I love chiseling out 2 lbs of mud from my boxes. Thank god everyone around here is too cheap and lazy to use durabond. That stuff chips out a lot harder than buckets of mud.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

B-Nabs said:


> I use the same size rings as the drywall going on. I've worked on jobs where the foreman wanted upsize, and we did it, and it worked fine. But I stick with same size. And I do that trick with the coil of wire, except I use scrap bits of ground, which in Canada is #14 uninsulated if the cable is either #14 or #12. Put a 6" driver bit in my drill, stick the wire in the gaps where the chuck holds the bit, and spin the wire into a tight spring. And if it's a code violation in Canada I'm not aware of it, and I also don't care. Great trick.


So why not use the correct mud ring instead of having to space out the receptacle?


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

wendon said:


> So why not use the correct mud ring instead of having to space out the receptacle?


99% of the time when I rough it in and finish it, using 1/2" muds for 1/2" board, 5/8" for 5/8" etc, that trick is not required. The face of the ring is set back about 1/8" in the wall, but the finish of the wall is done well enough that the plaster ears on the device sit on the wall and all is well. I just mentioned that trick for those times when you do have a device that won't sit nicely on the wall and needs a little help. I use it when I'm finishing someone else's rough in that didn't come out so well, or when I'm putting devices on an existing box that a has less-than-ideal interface with the wall surface.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> So I don't do a tremendous amount of work with studs and drywall so this may be a stupid question. Do you use 1/2" mud rings with 1/2" drywall and 5/8" rings for 5/8" drywall? It seems like a straight up obvious answer but every time I do it that way I regret it. I think I want to try 3/4" for 5/8" and 5/8" for 1/2".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Bet you didn't think this was worth 45 posts.


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