# Code Violations Customer Refuses to Correct



## wandalsh

As an electrical contractor, if you run into some major violations that you raise to the homeowner and they refuse to fix them, what sort of responsibility and thus negligence is there as a professional? I'm no lawyer obviously and have been running into these sort of issues more often recently and was not sure if some language in a contract is a good idea for protection. Any thoughts?


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## 360max

wandalsh said:


> As an electrical contractor, if you run into some major violations that you raise to the homeowner and they refuse to fix them, what sort of responsibility and thus negligence is there as a professional? I'm no lawyer obviously and have been running into these sort of issues more often recently and was not sure if some language in a contract is a good idea for protection. Any thoughts?


your responsible for your work, not others


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## Meadow

wandalsh said:


> As an electrical contractor, if you run into some major violations that you raise to the homeowner and they refuse to fix them, what sort of responsibility and thus negligence is there as a professional? I'm no lawyer obviously and have been running into these sort of issues more often recently and was not sure if some language in a contract is a good idea for protection. Any thoughts?



I just write it down as such and move on.


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## backstay

It's their money, I don't tell them how to spend it. You can't be held responsible for something you never touched.


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## Bootss

Put it in writing(with brief explanation of why they should repair or correct) ,offer them your services.keep it in your files.


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## Wpgshocker

I make it very clear that if I find anything that affects my work, I am obligated to fix it. If they decide to ignore it, I make sure the inspector knows about it and I document it.
If you are doing side work without a permit, you better hope there is no fire!

That kind of liability isn't work a couple hundred bucks!


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## Bootss

By the way here's a marketing tip from a fairly large Union maintenance /service contractor. Once a year every year(beginning of the year or sooner) he mails out calendars to all past customers (with his logo, contact info ,etc.looks like an old school small truck style calendar that you can hang on your refrigerator or set on your desk). He says he gets more work that way than any other, it's grown his business beyond all expectations!
:thumbup::thumbup:


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## 480sparky

Lep said:


> By the way here's a marketing tip from a fairly large Union maintenance /service contractor. Once a year every year(beginning of the year or sooner) he mails out calendars to all past customers (with his logo, contact info ,etc.looks like an old school small truck style calendar that you can hang on your refrigerator or set on your desk). He says he gets more work that way than any other, it's grown his business beyond all expectations!
> :thumbup::thumbup:


Perhaps you could explain how sending out calendars helps the OP with his question?


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## Wpgshocker

480sparky said:


> Perhaps you could explain how sending out calendars helps the OP with his question?



They can use the calendar to smother the fire?


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## dawgs

Lep said:


> By the way here's a marketing tip from a fairly large Union maintenance /service contractor. Once a year every year(beginning of the year or sooner) he mails out calendars to all past customers (with his logo, contact info ,etc.looks like an old school small truck style calendar that you can hang on your refrigerator or set on your desk). He says he gets more work that way than any other, it's grown his business beyond all expectations! :thumbup::thumbup:


What's being a union or nonunion contractor have to do with it?


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## ELECTRICK2

wandalsh said:


> As an electrical contractor, if you run into some major violations that you raise to the homeowner and they refuse to fix them, what sort of responsibility and thus negligence is there as a professional? I'm no lawyer obviously and have been running into these sort of issues more often recently and was not sure if some language in a contract is a good idea for protection. Any thoughts?


A lot depends on the definition of a major code violation and when the violation is noticed. If you notice the major violation before you start work, don't do anything and tell the home owner what has to happen. If he/she doesn't agree, pick up your tools and walk away. Gets a little dicey once you've started work though. But as good electricians we've pulled a permit (Or we did shortly after noticing the violation). Get your work OK'd and it's all documented you're in the clear. If it's a life safety issue, casually mention to the inspector "does this look right?" 
CYA, at all times.


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## flyboy

480sparky said:


> Perhaps you could explain how sending out calendars helps the OP with his question?



You hang the calendar in front of the code violations.


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## macmikeman

Our work performed does not cover nor provide any liability for any pre existing defects at the structure, and we are not responsible to make any repairs to any defects that may be present. 


Put it into your contracts.


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## hooch

you touch it you own it!!if they don't want to fix it walk/run away


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## jbfan

hooch said:


> you touch it you own it!!if they don't want to fix it walk/run away


Really? You come and install a circuit, and you are responsible for everything else?


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## 480sparky

jbfan said:


> Really? You come and install a circuit, and you are responsible for everything else?


No. He's saying if you touch it, you're responsible for it. 

If you _don't _mess with it, you're not.


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## chicken steve

If you're an EC following up on an HI's report, you're not beyond reproach

I learned this the hard way fellas, like i do everything else.....~CS~


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## macmikeman

Oh, please don't tell me you had to punch the HI because he was praying with his eyes closed after he looked at all the knob and tube wiring still active out of the FPE load center.........


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## seelite

Obviously you have never been sued in a NY court. The courts try to uphold the concept of "the last person to work on it (you) is responsible to leave it in workman-like-condition". I won only because I prepared a 'change order' which the client declined to approve. GET IT IN WRITING !!! (I'm retired contractor, NOT an attorney).


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## frenchelectrican

seelite said:


> Obviously you have never been sued in a NY court. The courts try to uphold the concept of "the last person to work on it (you) is responsible to leave it in workman-like-condition". I won only because I prepared a 'change order' which the client declined to approve. GET IT IN WRITING !!! (I'm retired contractor, NOT an attorney).


That is my simple rules too get it in writing too so they know and I know it is doc'ed so they can't blame me..

It happend before and also wise to use the cellphone and take a photo so you have a proof too to verify it ( that did save my neck few time )


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## chicken steve

Not that all would, but customers can sue over anything.

Even their own decisions , when they don;t work out for them

I'm with SeeLite on documenting, just do it even if you think it's useless 

A year or two down the road , it might be worth a lot to you

~CS~


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## weebee

To me it's also a ethical issue. I've seen issues on a home I was working on in the past that I brought to the owners intention. Only once was my advice ignored. And this concern was such a safety hazard I notified the fire dept. I could not live with myself if I ignored it and there was a incident.


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## joebanana

Here's one I had years ago. Got a service call for "flickering lights", went to the panel, heard the unmistakable sound of arcing from behind the meter. I immediately cut all power, and told the HO that I couldn't restore it until the POCO unlocked the meter ring. The HO freaked out. On a Saturday no less. POCO finally shows up, unlocks the ring and returns to his van to do paperwork. I pull the meter and the stabs were eroded beyond recognition, arced to death. I tell the homeowner, they need a whole new all-in-one. They say to just plug the meter back in and leave. So I go to the guy in the van and tell him what the homeowner said, and show him the meter. He say's NFW he was going to allow it, and took the meter. Long story short, he sold a new all-in-one for me. I have no idea what this has to do with the OP, but thought I'd share.


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## Wpgshocker

joebanana said:


> Here's one I had years ago. Got a service call for "flickering lights", went to the panel, heard the unmistakable sound of arcing from behind the meter. I immediately cut all power, and told the HO that I couldn't restore it until the POCO unlocked the meter ring. The HO freaked out. On a Saturday no less. POCO finally shows up, unlocks the ring and returns to his van to do paperwork. I pull the meter and the stabs were eroded beyond recognition, arced to death. I tell the homeowner, they need a whole new all-in-one. They say to just plug the meter back in and leave. So I go to the guy in the van and tell him what the homeowner said, and show him the meter. He say's NFW he was going to allow it, and took the meter. Long story short, he sold a new all-in-one for me. I have no idea what this has to do with the OP, but thought I'd share.



Typical ignorant homeowner. 
"Just put out the fire and plug it back in"

Sounds about right!


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## mitch65

Sorry about the long post but.
Got a service call to a fast food outlet (building is just over a year old) that people were getting shocked from the entrance door. (wet salty concrete from ice melt) metered it out , nothing, talked to manager. She said oh, only happens at night. I go turn on outside lighting contactor, touch bolt on door and sure enough get a poke. Measure it and get about 50V door to wet concrete. Go to back door, same thing 50V to ground. I figured one of the lights on the roof must be covered in snow, shorting to tin. shut off breakers one by one until voltage goes to 0, Parking lot and perimeter lights, WTF? Plugged an extension cord into a receptacle I knew was grounded, turned cct on again and measured from door to cord ground 0V, Measured from wet concrete to cord ground, 105V. 
Checked home runs going to light standards and find one with no ground wire. Go to small signs (all of which are working) and find one that has a broken switch shorting to the case. disconnect it and.... 105V ground from the concrete. pull the sign post off the ground and find splices at the base of the sign, imbedded in the grout. Still not the source of the short to ground. Find a wire in a light standard that goes nowhere, shorted to ground somewhere. All the wire in the u/g conduits are frozen. none of the splices in the light standards are accessible. ended up pulling down the light pole with the home runs in it, using a spare for a ground conductor, isolating shorted wire and redoing the grouted splices. 
We felt we had to fix the life safety issue because we knew about it. wrote a report and gave an estimate to permanently fix the issues. Owner didn't like it and is in litigation with construction contractors already. We didn't know about this until after we got wrapped up with this. What pisses me off is that there are 2 inspection stickers from 2 different inspectors. Found a few other deficiencies, just documented them.


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## flyboy

mitch65 said:


> Sorry about the long post but.
> Got a service call to a fast food outlet (building is just over a year old) that people were getting shocked from the entrance door. (wet salty concrete from ice melt) metered it out , nothing, talked to manager. She said oh, only happens at night. I go turn on outside lighting contactor, touch bolt on door and sure enough get a poke. Measure it and get about 50V door to wet concrete. Go to back door, same thing 50V to ground. I figured one of the lights on the roof must be covered in snow, shorting to tin. shut off breakers one by one until voltage goes to 0, Parking lot and perimeter lights, WTF? Plugged an extension cord into a receptacle I knew was grounded, turned cct on again and measured from door to cord ground 0V, Measured from wet concrete to cord ground, 105V.
> Checked home runs going to light standards and find one with no ground wire. Go to small signs (all of which are working) and find one that has a broken switch shorting to the case. disconnect it and.... 105V ground from the concrete. pull the sign post off the ground and find splices at the base of the sign, imbedded in the grout. Still not the source of the short to ground. Find a wire in a light standard that goes nowhere, shorted to ground somewhere. All the wire in the u/g conduits are frozen. none of the splices in the light standards are accessible. ended up pulling down the light pole with the home runs in it, using a spare for a ground conductor, isolating shorted wire and redoing the grouted splices.
> We felt we had to fix the life safety issue because we knew about it. wrote a report and gave an estimate to permanently fix the issues. Owner didn't like it and is in litigation with construction contractors already. We didn't know about this until after we got wrapped up with this. What pisses me off is that there are 2 inspection stickers from 2 different inspectors. Found a few other deficiencies, just documented them.


Nice trouble shooting Mitch! You hung in there until you identified the problem. 

Just out of curiosity Mitch, did you get paid for anything you did?

Did you discuss a diagnostic fee and did they agree to it before you started troubleshooting and opening anything up?

Did you get written authorization (a signed invoice), with an agreed to price to do the work?


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## brian11973

CYA

Lot's of pictures.

A lesson, that I learned, while working a bit in the "Cell" sector. (We were just dealing with "engineers", from 100's of miles away).

Paper work.

Their lawyer, can't argue paperwork, that their client signed. Don't EVER push paper work. Don't "we have to have you sign this, before we proceed." Let them read it. Walk off the job, come back tomorrow / next week. That alone, should let them know, that you are serious. Ohio requires 3 days on "in home sales". More details are better. I am NOT a lawyer.


<quote> uh, just about something, from every one. < end quote>


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## Bootss

480sparky said:


> Perhaps you could explain how sending out calendars helps the OP with his question?


Just thought I'd offer what I've learned from a successful contractor. To bad it offended you.

Not that anybody ever offers anything outside of the scope of a thread on this forum.


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## Switched

.................


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## mitch65

flyboy said:


> Nice trouble shooting Mitch! You hung in there until you identified the problem.
> 
> Just out of curiosity Mitch, did you get paid for anything you did?
> 
> Did you discuss a diagnostic fee and did they agree to it before you started troubleshooting and opening anything up?
> 
> Did you get written authorization (a signed invoice), with an agreed to price to do the work?


 I never talked to the owner, just his operations manager until it came time to pay. I told them our rates and kept the manager up to date on the progress. The owner actually said that he didn't really understand the explanation of the problem but that it shouldn't have taken so long to find the issue. Not sure how he knew that. Left it up to the boss to deal with after he said that.

Owner argued a bit on the troubleshooting bill but ended up paying most of it. Everything else he paid right away. He went so far as to courier the check for the actual repair and the troubleshooting after I told him no more work would be done because I didn't trust him to pay.


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## I_Work_BlindFolded

mitch65 said:


> I never talked to the owner, just his operations manager until it came time to pay. I told them our rates and kept the manager up to date on the progress. *The owner actually said that he didn't really understand the explanation of the problem but that it shouldn't have taken so long to find the issue.* Not sure how he knew that. Left it up to the boss to deal with after he said that.
> 
> Owner argued a bit on the troubleshooting bill but ended up paying most of it. Everything else he paid right away. He went so far as to courier the check for the actual repair and the troubleshooting after I told him no more work would be done because I didn't trust him to pay.


The number of times I've had to deal with this blows my mind. 

Here's a personal favourite of mine:

Customer: YOU HAVE TO COME NOW THERE ARE SPARKS FLYING OUT OF THE PANEL AND ALL MY PLUGS ARE SHOOTING ELECTRICITY AT THINGS. AND I CAN HEAR SIZZLING

After an inspection of the panel, several receptacles and switches, I found no trace of heat damage. No black marks anywhere, no deformed metal or plastic. Everything looked perfectly fine. So the customer brings me to a regular toggle switch (which looks fine) and holds the knob right in the middle, and we hear a sizzle. As it turns out, the customer didn't realize that switches have two positions: On and Off. I educated the customer that switches are only supposed to be on and off, I then replaced the toggle switch, just in case. 

Customer refused to pay, since apparently nothing was wrong. **** it, let the boss deal with that ****


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## chicken steve

I_Work_BlindFolded said:


> The number of times I've had to deal with this blows my mind.
> 
> Here's a personal favourite of mine:
> 
> Customer: YOU HAVE TO COME NOW THERE ARE SPARKS FLYING OUT OF THE PANEL AND ALL MY PLUGS ARE SHOOTING ELECTRICITY AT THINGS. AND I CAN HEAR SIZZLING



Press 2 ,if your panel sounds like bacon

Press 3 if flying monkeys came out of your meter......:laughing:

~CS~


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## lighterup

I quit responding to fast food service calls...it takes forever to get paid
and besides the last on e (Burger King) evidently just started calling 
anyone who would pick up the phone..I pull in , another EC is pulling 
out and a third EC (must've got there first) is already working the problem.


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## 480sparky

lighterup said:


> I quit responding to fast food service calls...it takes forever to get paid
> and besides the last on e (Burger King) evidently just started calling
> anyone who would pick up the phone..I pull in , another EC is pulling
> out and a third EC (must've got there first) is already working the problem.



Been there, done that. Got a call from a restaurant telling me to come NOW. I was there in 10 minutes. 4 other electricians were there as well. I saw one I knew and asked what was going on.

Turns out the manager just started calling everyone in the book. If you weren't first to show up, he felt he didn't need to pay you. So I sat down in the dining room and ordered a meal. When the waitress brought it to me, I asked for the manager.

When he arrived at my table, I told him that I wasn't going to pay for the meal since I hadn't taken a bite of it. And if he was going to make an issue of it, I said I'm sure your other patrons would like to hear the whole story.


I walked out with cash.


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## lighterup

480sparky said:


> Been there, done that. Got a call from a restaurant telling me to come NOW. I was there in 10 minutes. 4 other electricians were there as well. I saw one I knew and asked what was going on.
> 
> Turns out the manager just started calling everyone in the book. If you weren't first to show up, he felt he didn't need to pay you. So I sat down in the dining room and ordered a meal. When the waitress brought it to me, I asked for the manager.
> 
> When he arrived at my table, I told him that I wasn't going to pay for the meal since I hadn't taken a bite of it. And if he was going to make an issue of it, I said I'm sure your other patrons would like to hear the whole story.
> 
> 
> I walked out with cash.


Nice:thumbup:


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