# Who worries after changing out a panel?



## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

So the black and red wire are on the same phase and share the one neutral?

Shouldn't this anomaly been found before the panel change began?

The un-terminated wire being hot from another circuit would be a tough catch ahead of time unless these circuits were traced prior to panel change.

It's probably now your responsibility to fix these anomalies since they were not discussed with the customer ahead of time and you are the last one in the panel.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

One of the many gotcha's available for contractors. Idealy these are caught before the price is given
Since we are after the change of equipment. I would fix the problems showing the HO the issues one at a time and why they need to be corrected. Go find your best patience hat for when you giving away the farm. Occasionally I have had customers offer me more money. Occasionally I would accept it. 
Hard dollar bid you own the problems. T&M is self explanatory.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If the black and red are a MWBC when I got there, that’s what they are when I leave. I’m not rewiring the house on a panel change. Two circuits tied together out in the field would stay that way. Nut it and tag as hot in the panel. I was replacing a receptacle and found it was hot neutral reversed, the white was hot and the black was neutral. Went to the panel and found all the white wires on breakers and all the black wires one the neutral buss. That’s just how I left it. It had been there 60 years. A few more wouldn’t hurt.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

I agree with Backstay, you leave as you found it but I would let the home owner know there are issues and you would be glad to come back on T&M to fix it. If you start trying to find and fix all the problems, set up a tent and take out a loan to pay for it.

Tim.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

No reasonable person expects a contractor to fix something pre-existing that's discovered that's not in their scope of work. What if you found the pool bonding was not right, would you crack up the concrete and redo it for them on your nickel? What if you found the wire to the garage was undersized, dig it up and replace it free of charge? Of course not. Your survey to bid the job can't be considered an exhaustive inspection and even if it was, no inspector offers to pay for everything they miss. 

If you discover something like this, tell the homeowner and see if they want to pay to fix it. If you think it's dangerous, and they don't want to fix it, don't reconnect it. 

If you think this is something that needs prior clarification, put it in your terms and conditions boilerplate that you put in all your contracts - scope of work does not cover unanticipated issues that must be corrected to finish work in a safe and code compliant manner, blah blah blah. But this is so basic I don't think it necessarily needs to be spelled out.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

wiz1997 said:


> So the black and red wire are on the same phase and share the one neutral?
> 
> Shouldn't this anomaly been found before the panel change began?
> 
> ...


Black and red on the same twin was not picked up until after I took the cover off. I know the problem that it could cause but if I correct it I could create an even bigger problem. Who takes things apart just to give an estimate?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Most of the time the customers understand. It's the things I don't catch that worry me. The mwbc were easy to fix. One was the washer and gas dryer that was split the other was the dishwasher and insta-hot under the sink.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Who takes things apart just to give an estimate?


Me....

Learned many years ago that a breaker panel is like a box of Cracker Jacks, there is always a suprise inside.


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## CoreyOnTheBrink (Apr 9, 2021)

I always take the panel cover off when quoting a changeout or service upgrade. Saves me a trip to the supply house when I know that they had #10 wire landed on a 40A


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> How many people out there worry after a service change or panel change? I just finished a panel change out in a house where the previous homeowner did much of his own electrical work. He / she used a lot of multi wire branch circuits and had the red and black on the same 2020 twin breaker and we all know that is a no no. Do I fix it or do I leave it the way it is? If I put the black wire on one one leg and the red wire on the second leg I could potentially send 240 some where. As I am turning on circuits I found that another black wire is hot which tells me that in a switch box somewhere all whites are tied together and all blacks are twisted together. Now I have to search out the mis-matched wires. Open splice boxes all over the attic. Many electricians on this forum are always cautioning about liability and leave it up to the engineer, Now I am wondering if we should skip service changes and tell them to get an engineer to design what we should do.


You verbally or formally use a change order to let the owner decide to spend the money. You can walk away or leave things out of service and try to pass it off on an engineer or other ECs but you will lose a customer and a business segment.

Most of the time you can make a lot of money from change orders. You are already there so you can sell it as less costly than a competitor starting over. it doesn't always work but often it does.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

wiz1997 said:


> So the black and red wire are on the same phase and share the one neutral?
> 
> Shouldn't this anomaly been found before the panel change began?
> 
> ...


The macfix for this is rather simple. Take the red wire out of the second half of the twin breaker and take out the black wire out of the first half and twist them together and then add a pigtail to those two and install a single pole breaker where the twin was. Now you have a single 120 volt circuit instead of two. One causes a nuisance trip, maybe , maybe not, I still check amperage and hope everything is running when I check....) and the original way can cause a fire rather easily. I pick option #1. If it overloads , tough ****, let them pay you a second service call to track it down and fix that problem for them. (hopefully its not kitchen small appliance circuits.....)


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

And now that I said all that, there might be some guys here ( I kinda doubt it though) who don't know about GE breakers that look just like twin breakers but are actually 2 pole breakers and fit into GE panels in such a way as to connect across 2 phases. But they have a common handle tie usually. Anyhow, just thought I might mention that in case somebody makes an oopsie.......


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

splatz said:


> No reasonable person expects a contractor to fix something pre-existing that's discovered that's not in their scope of work. What if you found the pool bonding was not right, would you crack up the concrete and redo it for them on your nickel? What if you found the wire to the garage was undersized, dig it up and replace it free of charge? Of course not. Your survey to bid the job can't be considered an exhaustive inspection and even if it was, no inspector offers to pay for everything they miss.
> 
> If you discover something like this, tell the homeowner and see if they want to pay to fix it. If you think it's dangerous, and they don't want to fix it, don't reconnect it.
> 
> If you think this is something that needs prior clarification, put it in your terms and conditions boilerplate that you put in all your contracts - scope of work does not cover unanticipated issues that must be corrected to finish work in a safe and code compliant manner, blah blah blah. But this is so basic I don't think it necessarily needs to be spelled out.


Actually Spaltz, that is exactly what I would do. I typically bid just to replace a receptacle and often end up rewiring the whole house. I don't make any money, but when I get on the forum I can proclaim my self righteousness to the world. 

Are you trying to tell me you actually charge real money for work? That very notion makes me sick.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> The macfix for this is rather simple. Take the red wire out of the second half of the twin breaker and take out the black wire out of the first half and twist them together and then add a pigtail to those two and install a single pole breaker where the twin was. Now you have a single 120 volt circuit instead of two. One causes a nuisance trip, maybe , maybe not, I still check amperage and hope everything is running when I check....) and the original way can cause a fire rather easily. I pick option #1. If it overloads , tough ****, let them pay you a second service call to track it down and fix that problem for them. (hopefully its not kitchen small appliance circuits.....)


If I can't find the other ends that is what I do.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> And now that I said all that, there might be some guys here ( I kinda doubt it though) who don't know about GE breakers that look just like twin breakers but are actually 2 pole breakers and fit into GE panels in such a way as to connect across 2 phases. But they have a common handle tie usually. Anyhow, just thought I might mention that in case somebody makes an oopsie.......


I have a slew of 15 and 20 amp of those funny GE mini slims. I haven't seen the GE panel that uses them in years.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I have a slew of 15 and 20 amp of those funny GE mini slims. I haven't seen the GE panel that uses them in years.


Yes me too. They still sell them at the Home Depot here. I don't buy GE panels unless I am real stuck.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

wiz1997 said:


> So the black and red wire are on the same phase and share the one neutral?
> 
> Shouldn't this anomaly been found before the panel change began?
> 
> ...


I get that it’s not allowed to share the same phase but is the reason it isn’t is that if the red and black were to short out against each other and not the neutral and ground the breaker won’t trip? Also adding to that if they did short and not trip the breaker each number 12 at the receptical would need to see now 40A assuming it’s 2 single pole 20’s on the same phase or a tandem 20 then melt and possibly cause a fire?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

CoreyOnTheBrink said:


> they had #10 wire landed on a 40A


Which may be legal in some cases.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Phillipd said:


> I get that it’s not allowed to share the same phase but is the reason it isn’t is that if the red and black were to short out against each other and not the neutral and ground the breaker won’t trip? Also adding to that if they did short and not trip the breaker each number 12 at the receptical would need to see now 40A assuming it’s 2 single pole 20’s on the same phase or a tandem 20 then melt and possibly cause a fire?


That is not the primary reason.... The reason is if you have a multiwire branch circuit and the red and black are on the same phase you could potentially overload the neutral.

For example 
Black Circuit= 12 amps
Red Circuit = 10 amps
Neutral = 10 + 12 = 22 amps

If they are on different phases then 

Neutral= 12-10 = 2 amps


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Which may be legal in some cases.


what situation makes #10 on 40A legal in a house ?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> what situation makes #10 on 40A legal in a house ?


Feeding an A/C with a MCA of 27 and a MOCP of 40. Or a well pump. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Forge Boyz said:


> Feeding an A/C with a MCA of 27 and a MOCP of 40. Or a well pump.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


oh right , i forgot about majewski's little educational class for us
however i am not an ac tech,

if i am running power out to the disc. i run the AWG im told to with a normally sized breaker
if i am given amps, i run the normal sized AWG and breaker
if i am not given any info, i run #8 and 40A

initially i was not aware of the exceptions for an a/c
now i still do that because so many other ppl come by and tell the HO it will cause a fire
if he is a good BS'er, the HO will believe him and not call me back again

my primary worth where i am is my reputation with the customer
i guard it jealously


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is not the primary reason.... The reason is if you have a multiwire branch circuit and the red and black are on the same phase you could potentially overload the neutral.
> 
> For example
> Black Circuit= 12 amps
> ...


Ahhhhh simple Edison 3 wire calculations duh thank you!


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> How many people out there worry after a service change or panel change? I just finished a panel change out in a house where the previous homeowner did much of his own electrical work. He / she used a lot of multi wire branch circuits and had the red and black on the same 2020 twin breaker and we all know that is a no no. Do I fix it or do I leave it the way it is? If I put the black wire on one one leg and the red wire on the second leg I could potentially send 240 some where. As I am turning on circuits I found that another black wire is hot which tells me that in a switch box somewhere all whites are tied together and all blacks are twisted together. Now I have to search out the mis-matched wires. Open splice boxes all over the attic. Many electricians on this forum are always cautioning about liability and leave it up to the engineer, Now I am wondering if we should skip service changes and tell them to get an engineer to design what we should do.


i too make it a habit to list replacement breakers by wire size, and not breaker size (ie. , take the cover off)

my thoughts and practice are, if i can fix it cheaply and safely, i do
on the other hand if it has worked with no visible problems this long, i prefer not to re-invent the wheel
as was mentioned, you dont really know what that red and black means .... may or may not be a MWBC
i will not go in the attic or thru the house to investigate something that has been working for many years

sometimes if the situation makes me uncomfortable i will discuss it with the HO, 
for instance: here is the possible problem, and here is the possible result; but if it has been this way a long time that problem may never show up
then i give them a probable price to fix it
i continue to talk with them until i am sure they understand and have decided what they want me to do
sometimes they say, i cant afford it today, but i will call you when i can. that day may or may not come, that is on them, they were warned


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Many of us may pull a larger wire than necessary I was just stating that the code allows us to run a smaller wire with a larger size overcurrent device. The reason we can do this is because the the air conditioner has overload protection Built-in and that will protect the wire from over current. The breaker will protect from short circuit and groundfold


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> i too make it a habit to list replacement breakers by wire size, and not breaker size (ie. , take the cover off)
> 
> my thoughts and practice are, if i can fix it cheaply and safely, i do
> on the other hand if it has worked with no visible problems this long, i prefer not to re-invent the wheel
> ...


Perfect approach. Explain it to the HO until they understand Work with them and hopefully they will work with you.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Perfect approach. Explain it to the HO until they understand Work with them and hopefully they will work with you.


i have always made it my practice to talk to ppl about what they expect performance wise when they call me and say "i want x done"
part of my reason is to protect my reputation (they got what they asked for, but it wasnt what they needed, so they blame me)
part of my reason is to increase my customer base and word of mouth

many times very uneducated ppl will say i need my house rewired
when i ask them about it i explain that unless the insulation is deteriorating, that is not needed
then i discuss the problem with them (usually blinking lights thru the house, which is a service problem)
once i tell them why that is my diagnosis, and the cost difference
they really get happy and in love with me
those are the ones who say with a really big smile "you are my electrician!!" meaning they wont call anybody else
another star for me !!

you have to remember they dont know what they want, even if they do they often dont know how to ask for it

lighting/ how bright it is in here
"i want all new light fixtures in here" ok,,, why? "it is too dark" they are using incandescent 60W .. tell them about led bulbs

several yrs ago the dark toned ceiling fans with a brown shade that trapped all the light
"i put bigger bulbs in, but now they wont stay on" (factory installed current limiter) change to led, but that brown shade is the problem

the list goes on ... we have to listen to the customer, figure out what they need (not always what they ask for) and give them a solution they will like


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> i have always made it my practice to talk to ppl about what they expect performance wise when they call me and say "i want x done"
> part of my reason is to protect my reputation (they got what they asked for, but it wasnt what they needed, so they blame me)
> part of my reason is to increase my customer base and word of mouth
> 
> ...


Probably 90% of my customers are very reasonable and understand when I explain things to them. Most realize that the previous owner did a lot of questionable things in the house. But there are people who do not want to hear anything. They have a " You should have known and anticipated for it" attitude. These are the people I worry the most about. If something happens will I take the rap?
I guess I listen to too many fire stories. There was a case here where the electrician did a service change and a fire started several days later. The electrician and inspection agency got sued but it turned out the fire was from an extension cord under the rug. I bet until that extension cord was found there was a lot of sleepless nights. Am I getting older and paranoid or is the industry showing more risks today.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Probably 90% of my customers are very reasonable and understand when I explain things to them. Most realize that the previous owner did a lot of questionable things in the house. But there are people who do not want to hear anything. They have a " You should have known and anticipated for it" attitude. These are the people I worry the most about. If something happens will I take the rap?
> I guess I listen to too many fire stories. There was a case here where the electrician did a service change and a fire started several days later. The electrician and inspection agency got sued but it turned out the fire was from an extension cord under the rug. I bet until that extension cord was found there was a lot of sleepless nights. Am I getting older and paranoid or is the industry showing more risks today.


you are getting older, may or may not be getting paranoid

customers are feeling more entitled is what is causing the greater risk
ppl have been taught to take less and less responsibility for themselves and to put the blame on anyone from the govt down to the neighbor's dog

a trades man has a very big target on his back in their eyes
i would much rather work for old ppl, they still understand when it is their fault


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> Probably 90% of my customers are very reasonable and understand when I explain things to them. Most realize that the previous owner did a lot of questionable things in the house. But there are people who do not want to hear anything. They have a " You should have known and anticipated for it" attitude. These are the people I worry the most about. If something happens will I take the rap?
> I guess I listen to too many fire stories. There was a case here where the electrician did a service change and a fire started several days later. The electrician and inspection agency got sued but it turned out the fire was from an extension cord under the rug. I bet until that extension cord was found there was a lot of sleepless nights. Am I getting older and paranoid or is the industry showing more risks today.


It takes about $10k to sue someone these days and win or defend. So it’s just a cost of doing business to be aware of.

The “your problem” crowd 99% of the time are accountants or financial people of some kind. They threaten but have no spine. Or they think they can push you around and get something for nothing.

Simply put, document. Photograph before and after, every time. Take photos of questionable stuff. Give them a service report at close out to document everything, if you point something out and they refuse to have it fixed if it’s a safety hazard, document it if you can’t photograph it. This simple step shuts down the legal stuff before it even gets started. If they aren’t electricians they can’t argue with your statements.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow. I honestly don't know what is wrong with some of you.

You would actually leave an unsafe condition in the panel that is _super_ easy to fix??? WTF???

I mean, I just don't understand: this seems like (sorry/not sorry) the stupidest thread I've ever seen on here that has actually been _taken seriously_. My first assumption is that the OP is not an electrician; he is worried he did something wrong, and now wants some free advice to assuage his feelings...

The way I see it, there are 4 basic issues here:
1). The ability to make a moral/ethical decision.
I can't believe I have to say this: our job is as much about providing safety for our customers as it is buying a new boat for our weekend. Customer safety should be your first priority in any situation and if you can't handle it, walk away so you don't lose money (if you suck at negotiating and the money is all you care about).
But don't believe me: I assure you that there is a huge legal machine hiding in the shadows WAITING to punish you for making an unethical decision: when the house burns down because of one or more overloaded neutrals, the homeowner's insurance company is going to come after YOU as the person who changed the panel and didn't correct the very obvious code violations. They are going to line up one or two expert witnesses who are going to rip you a new a*_hole in court. Their insurance company is going to drag you through the system, your insurance company is going to raise your rates (if they don't outright drop you or choose not to honor your policy because there might be a clause in there about you *not being stupid_). If I were your inspector (private company) I would never work for you again; if I were a municipal inspector, things might be worse for you.
Let's not skip over the part about how much time you will give away: talking to lawyers, doing depositions, potentially being in court if you don't settle. And we'll skip the part about not being able to sleep if someone got hurt and the facts of your **** up are shoved down your throat -despite the fact that you tried to ignore this warning. Being naive about how to run your business is not an excuse under the law.

2). Understanding your craft and the product solutions that are available to you.
HELLO: You can use a quad breaker for multibranch circuits in a panel that is filled with twin / tandem breakers. How does anyone here NOT know this (apprentices: not you. Maybe the OP is an apprentice...)? Yes, they are a little bit more expensive, but it's a material charge that you could easily pass on to your customer -or even absorb if you had to. I have 20 amp, 15 amp, and combination 30 amp/20 amp quads in my van at all times. This is so simple/basic that there is no reason to charge extra for labor.
***If you seriously didn't know about quad breakers, Google it.
You're welcome.
Call whoever taught you your craft and curse them out for being negligent in your education.***

3). Your ability and preparedness to explain your craft to your customers.
I have explained these things so many times to customers that I finally wrote a Google document about shared neutral (multi wire branch) circuits. These kinds of simple explanations _also act as caveats when you give an estimate_.
You should be able to make a drawing with a straight line representing neutral, a wave representing a single pole circuit and another wave 180° out of phase representing the opposite pole and explain how the neutral is used 100% of the time between the two phases ...and why it's dangerous to have two hots on the same phase overloading the neutral. If you need me to make a picture for you, I'll do it.

4). The overall success of your business which can weather the ebbs and flow of unusual circumstances.
If you have the absolute worst customer who will not accept your explanation and won't pay a penny more, your business should be successful enough that you can act with high ethical integrity and absorb the loss (OR walk away). Why do you care if you lost a customer that you really don't _ever_ want to work for again?
Ensuring that you make enough money also allows you to do charitable work when you find someone who really needs your help, but can't afford it; and if you are a cold hearted money grubbing grump, you'll just get your boat that much sooner from saving all your profits.

___
I don't know how others deal with this kind of job, but for the record: I never go to look at a panel swap; this is a phone/email estimate that is easy. Ask your customer to send you pictures:
1). Of the panel from 10+ feet away so you can see how high it is on the wall, whether there is extra length on the branch circuit wiring if you need to adjust the position of the panel, you'll know what the panel is mounted to, you'll be able to tell them that they have to move all that stuff in front of the panel before work can begin, notice how many grounding electrodes there are. Bonus: count the number of cables if you can; this might determine the likelihood of double-tapped breakers -either way, make DTs a caveat in your estimate.
2). The panel with the door open so you can count the number of breakers/circuits, any specialty breakers you'll have to get (like if it's a different panel than what you install and there are DP or AFCI breakers, you may have to do some shopping for whatever is not in your van)
3). The label on the inside of the door ...this is useful if you see that there are "legal" tandem/twin breakers.

While full services might vary from job to job, panel swaps rarely do. I have a base price of $XXX + $XX per circuit. 200A panels are $XXX more and panels that are in walls are $XXX more (I'm likely to cut the hole for the new panel about 4" longer to easily slide the panel into the wall and I do not patch). Grounding and bonding is extra depending on what's needed.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Wow. I honestly don't know what is wrong with some of you.
> 
> You would actually leave an unsafe condition in the panel that is _super_ easy to fix??? WTF???
> 
> ...


I am the OP. Over 40 years in the business. I don't think you fully read or understood the question or comment I was asking or making. Or maybe I was not clear in my question. The panel change I was on had several multi wire branch circuits. The black and red were on the same twin breaker which could overload the neutral. I did not want to correct or connect the problem until I found out what the wires fed. In this case it was an easy trace out. What was not working? The washer and gas dryer. The dishwasher and the under cabinet insta hot. The kitchen counter receptacles. I verified that the wires can be connected on each leg without any problems. The back feed was a bit more complicated but experience told me that it was most likely in a multigang switch box and usually the front door 4 gang box. Usually houses around here are wired one circuit across the front, one up the center, and one across the back. The center and front were down so the most likely spot was the front door. The point I was trying to make is that these were obvious mistakes the previous homeowner or electrician made, what about things we don't see? We go in to do a service change with the assumption that the house is wired to a certain standard. If we see that the wiring is non grounding NM cable and the people have all new grounding receptacles we can say something but will the homeowner make the corrections? After a service change do we go throughout the whole house including the attic and check every device and box to make sure nobody was monkeying around with the circuits. I have worked in many different houses over the years and saw some pretty dangerous stuff. Some people wanted it fixed some said to leave it alone. Some houses I disconnected dangerous stuff, told them to call someone else that I was too busy and left. They expected me to fix things for the practice.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am the OP. Over 40 years in the business. I don't think you fully read or understood the question or comment I was asking or making. Or maybe I was not clear in my question. The panel change I was on had several multi wire branch circuits. The black and red were on the same twin breaker which could overload the neutral. I did not want to correct or connect the problem until I found out what the wires fed. In this case it was an easy trace out. What was not working? The washer and gas dryer. The dishwasher and the under cabinet insta hot. The kitchen counter receptacles. I verified that the wires can be connected on each leg without any problems. The back feed was a bit more complicated but experience told me that it was most likely in a multigang switch box and usually the front door 4 gang box. Usually houses around here are wired one circuit across the front, one up the center, and one across the back. The center and front were down so the most likely spot was the front door. The point I was trying to make is that these were obvious mistakes the previous homeowner or electrician made, what about things we don't see? We go in to do a service change with the assumption that the house is wired to a certain standard. If we see that the wiring is non grounding NM cable and the people have all new grounding receptacles we can say something but will the homeowner make the corrections? After a service change do we go throughout the whole house including the attic and check every device and box to make sure nobody was monkeying around with the circuits. I have worked in many different houses over the years and saw some pretty dangerous stuff. Some people wanted it fixed some said to leave it alone. Some houses I disconnected dangerous stuff, told them to call someone else that I was too busy and left. They expected me to fix things for the practice.


Your response was very good. But I understood your OP too.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'd like to hear some more about these Quad Breakers that haven't been on the shelves for a couple of years now........... Thanks Covid and great big reset. Thanks a lot. I don't know about where you all are at, but I got told by an employee of a certain big orange store that the reason suddenly there is zero shelving for Eaton Brand anything is because Eaton still is shuffling its feet instead of ramping up production so H.D. just shoved em out of the car and drove away.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I just finished a panel change out in a house where the previous homeowner did much of his own electrical work. He / she used a lot of multi wire branch circuits and had the red and black on the same 2020 twin breaker and we all know that is a no no. Do I fix it or do I leave it the way it is?


So maybe I misunderstood ...you were NOT asking if you should leave the blacks and the reds on the same pole? The way I read it, it sounded like you were NOT sure; like it was extraneous and you shouldn't be bothered...*which I would completely disagree with*.
(and I was really disheartened when I thought that other electricians said they would leave the blacks and reds like that)


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> So maybe I misunderstood ...you were NOT asking if you should leave the blacks and the reds on the same pole? The way I read it, it sounded like you were NOT sure; like it was extraneous and you shouldn't be bothered...*which I would completely disagree with*.
> (and I was really disheartened when I thought that other electricians said they would leave the blacks and reds like that)


His question was more to the fact if he fixes the MWBC, putting the hots on different sides, could something get 240 across because of the way it was before the change out. And then the discussion moved to how far do you go in checking or test every device and fixing them for free.

Your reaction was a bit much and he handled it well. I wouldn’t have been so polite.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I'd like to hear some more about these Quad Breakers that haven't been on the shelves for a couple of years now........... Thanks Covid and great big reset. Thanks a lot. I don't know about where you all are at, but I got told by an employee of a certain big orange store that the reason suddenly there is zero shelving for Eaton Brand anything is because Eaton still is shuffling its feet instead of ramping up production so H.D. just shoved em out of the car and drove away.


Yeah, we blew it with Covid, but some people don't know how to think ahead. First time in my 61 years that there wasn't food on the shelves of super-markets. That was a warning that should have made people snap out of it, but it didn't. The current global economy was very predictable and if people weren't so polarized we could have been done with this by now. They still are polarized AND now they are really tired. And, predictably: so far we're following the same pattern as last year. Good luck this winter. My advice is to stock up _now_ when you can because prices probably won't stabilize for months as people get sick again and merchandise can't be unloaded and transported. Remember THAT **** show? Especially when school starts because parents are not going to keep their kids at home and (from toddlers picking each others' noses to teenagers making out) I think it's safe to say Covid is gonna get busy after October.

Anywayyyyy...getting back to electrical stuff.

To answer your question:
There are triplex breakers at my HD and Lowes. Quads at my supply store. You can order both online from the Siemens' Amazon store.  I mention Siemens because I use Siemens PL, PN, CU series panels exclusively.
Pro tip: They have a copper bus bar and a lifetime warranty. They are the only company with a robust choice of copper-bus panels that doesn't screw you by having proprietary breakers -so I am always stocked for panel replacements, new services, and maintenance calls.

Eaton is **** for AFCI breakers so I don't ever install their panels -so I can't help you there in terms of my personal shopping experience, but they probably also have an amazon store(?). Have you tried shopping online?

Another reason to build stock in your van, garage, basement, whatever:
Even in normal times I usually buy items like this 2-5 at a time; because eventually I'll use it. I'd rather stock my van than run out to the store in the middle of the day -but I _only_ do resi work, so my stocking choices are easy (although I have a ford transit connect, so space is limited). Here's a financial incentive: As an _investment_, if I have $5,000-$10,000 in my van, it's saving me more money in travel time/labor (not to mention gas) than if I made 10% investing in the market. It's a safer bet and a tax deduction too. On top of that, it makes me look more professional to my customers if I can say, "I found the problem, this is broken, but fortunately I carry these in my van so I can replace it today".


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> So maybe I misunderstood ...you were NOT asking if you should leave the blacks and the reds on the same pole? The way I read it, it sounded like you were NOT sure; like it was extraneous and you shouldn't be bothered...*which I would completely disagree with*.
> (and I was really disheartened when I thought that other electricians said they would leave the blacks and reds like that)


As I get older I find that my thoughts sometimes are not in sync with my speach or typing. I pride myself on doing the right thing but lately I am losing jobs to people who only do what they are told, get the check and move on. They wear blinders when working and don't say anything if they see something. I don’t go looking for stuff but if I see something I say something.

Yes I was a little shocked at your reply because you are usually up there with your comments and I agree with them most of the time. Then I reread what I posted and realized I could have said things more clearly.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

backstay said:


> Your reaction was a bit much and he handled it well. I wouldn’t have been so polite.


Yeah, I was a bit shell-shocked by peoples' responses. Personally I would have expressed the question differently; not right after making a statement about something we all know is a bad idea. But that's my style and I can see that I jumped the gun.

Kb1jb1, I apologize for taking such an accusatory tone.
I'm getting old ...and perhaps more grumpy. Like I said, I was shell-shocked by what I thought I was reading.

On the topic of possible 240V issues:

I do this kind of work almost every week (housing stock where I live is up to 140 years old and has layers of work from electricians, handymen, and DIYers) and I've never gotten 240V from separating same-pole MWBCs. If the 2 hots are tied together (it sounded to me like this was the problem in the switch box), they will trip a DP breaker immediately and with a vengeance. This is relatively easy to troubleshoot.

I HAVE seen 240V issues happen when people try to "fix" a reversed polarity by swapping the hot and neutral in the panel. Depending on the resistance, light bulbs generally give it away: they get brighter and die. Sometimes this happens in a switch box by "accident":

"Hello, Mr. Electrician...? My husband changed a switch and now all the light bulbs are dying"


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

I see some folks struggling with how to talk with customers. I'm the top-rated 1-man shop on Yelp.com in my city of 1.4 million people, so I think(?) I'm really good at this. I've also informally taught classes for contractors on customer service and relations, so I'm copying and pasting from some of my notes.

Here's my practical advice for handling issues that come up: Prep your customers before hand.
There is a Buddhist saying: "Misery is a function of unfulfilled expectations". There are very few universal statements that are more true than this. I recommend that all electricians take this to heart; you need to set expectations with your customers so that they understand these sorts of possibilities.
When you show your knowledge _before the job starts_ and then you show your experience and expertise _if/when_ a problem arises, your customers are really, really glad that they hired a capable, thoughtful, honest, concerned, professional electrician. If you don't put these two concepts together, you can't understand that customers are _grateful_ that you are making them safer ...and they will pay you for that gratitude.

I've said this on this site about a bazillion times: write some of this stuff out, put it in a Google doc, and give it to your customers _before_ the job starts -actually before you even get hired, because I am certain that my kindness and knowledge get me hired all the time -especially since so few contractors share useful info.

What should you put in the google doc?
Write down or dictate to your phone everything you can think of that might come up. I usually dictate into my phone because my mouth-brain is faster than my typing. I don't even use anything fancy; I just open an email and then when I'm done it's automatically saved in my drafts. Then on a computer (because it's got a bigger screen) I copy/paste into google docs, I edit and expand on the most likely issues.
I have 21 google docs. covering everything from grounding and bonding, GFCI/AFCI protection, fans, lighting ideas (basic), shared neutrals, making a circuit map, troubleshooting stuff that they can do, etc. Sending these docs to people has earned me _at least_ (10) 5-star reviews on yelp -FROM PEOPLE I COULDN'T EVEN FIT INTO MY SCHEDULE (so I never actually met or worked for them).

Communication is the key to EVERY relationship.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

We all get older, I definitely get grumpier.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This kitchen I am renovating , It is pretty big for one thing. Then there is this- interior walls are tongue and groove 1" very hard wood. There will be under cabinet lights at every section. There is 14 total receptacle outlets along the counters to keep to code. I had to bring out 12 tails total for the little inch style led under cabinet fixtures. Behind the hardwood old finish is framing , using the old timber 2"x4" really are. But the studs are 12" on center, and there is 4 cross fire blocks per every stud bay between counter height and the 10 high ceiling. We are going to drywall over top the whole thing so I can and have been cutting , cutting , cutting that tongue and groove out to make runs between outlets and up into the attic. With a skill saw. It's been a bear. I spent ten hours in there today, and more to go. Right now I just don't wanna hear about how I should have stocked up on Eaton Arc faults when I typically run thru around 2,000 of them a year. Look ahead how?. 
They closed the factory(s) suddenly with no good warnings and have kept em closed since 2020. For that one kitchen I will be needing about a dozen all together , but not the neutral bus style , I will need the pigtail version to fit in the existing load centers in that house. Those are like shooting stars to catch and secure from a wholesaler. Plug in neutral bus I can get a few here and there each week, but pigtail version and the sellers start laughing out loud at me , like I'm some kind of idiot for even asking. 
Maybe I can hand the electrical inspector a Google Doc or something to keep him happy, instead of answering his question which is always- have you installed the required arc faults yet for every last little thing you have touched on this job?

Rant over. At least I can still drive my gas guzzling 2017 GM van to the job cause so far we still have gasoline in the pumps. I know, I know, I should be looking to the future and stocking up on gasoline by filling up the swimming pool to the top with it, like the well organized electricians here at the forum have been doing......... lol.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Oh, by the way, have I mentioned the building department, the one the electrical inspectors work for, that department takes over a year on average for even residential permits to be approved from the date of submitting it. It's not the inspectors faults. It's the guys who stamp the permits. Anyway, it they can't keep arc faults on the shelves then they should just cancel the whole dog and pony show until the stores have an abundance of em again. This goes for all the major brands. Just cancel the requirements for arc fault breakers until sombody is making chips for them and they are selling them again. Do it. I know you code making panel guys read these forums, put out an emergency stop on the 2020 and 2017 code versions. Hell go back to 2005 till this all clears up. Do it for the children. Do it for America. Be a real hero.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Eaton store on Amazon. I use it for emergencies but generally prefer HD or my supply store.

Sorry your job is so tough.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> View attachment 166846
> 
> 
> Eaton store on Amazon. I use it for emergencies but generally prefer HD or my supply store.
> ...


Do you realize he is in Hawaii? That may make a difference in getting things shipped there.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Yes. _All the more reason to join Amazon prime_. I've been to Hawaii, and I have relatives who live there. Perhaps not all islands are the same, but Amazon prime does not cost more in Hawaii than it does in New York City or anywhere else.
Does that mean you can get same day service? I assume not. But if someone is really going through 2,000 circuit breakers a year (that's 40 a week on average), they should be able to plan ahead, right? One of the beauties of ordering online is to actually _subscribe to a product_. So, for those of you who are reading this who are too fossilized to know: that means you get an automatic shipment at a set time period.
Both Home Depot and Lowe's offer to email you when an out of stock product becomes available. So let's say you can't get a meter socket, do you think maybe when Home Depot emails you to tell you that they're available again maybe you should buy two this time instead of just one? And then maybe when you use the one you should order another before you use the second meter socket so you don't have this problem again?
Put aside saving money and saving time for a minute. How about just having less stress? Don't we as contractors have enough s*** to worry about?
Honestly, I have more faith in contractors to grumble and complain than I do about their ability to do something about it. Everybody loves to complain about how tough everything is. What we're good at is busting our bodies to get the work done. We're expert Craftsman, but that's not all it takes to run a business. Ask yourself: did you go to business school? How many business classes have you taken? How many books have you read about running a business in the last 5 years? And even if you are the contractor who has done these things, how many other contractors do you know who have done the same? So when I see a contractor offer another contractor helpful information, the very FIRST thing I expect is resistance. ESPECIALLY on the internet. It doesn't carry much weight with me because I like fixing things ...and that's why I took ~2 minutes out of my day to find Eaton circuit breakers in the Eaton store on Amazon. I'm not even saying Amazon is the best place to get them; just that it's the first source that came up on my phone. 

I'm done with this part of the conversation because some people are so stuck in their ways that they literally can't change their minds. I mean, these days people are more attached to their opinions or feelings than they are to objective facts. We might be talking to someone about normal stuff and then suddenly find out that they are one of those people who still believes that Donald Trump won the election.

Suffice to say that ordering online in bulk saves time, money, and stress. Make lists of what you use frequently and order extra or start a subscription. It might seem like a big scary step to someone who hasn't done it, but the rewards are worth overcoming one's fear.

This is a worldwide pandemic, and it's not over, and as long as people keep acting foolishly by thinking it's over and that they can't get sick -which they will- it's not going to be over anytime soon. I wish anyone reading this good luck making your business run smoother and more efficiently from making sure that you have your own supplies on hand to improving your relationships with customers.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

If all you do is install services and residential, that could work well. If you need a new switchboard, to put under under an existing bus riser, and require a buss adapter to fit it in, Amazon is useless. Or if you need a AGC 3 amp fuse today because a entire plant is down because of it, Amazon is useless.

I value my relationships with my local wholesalers, and support them with every job. They support me likewise. Their in the business to know their products and sources, and to support their contractors. Having local inventory on hand is worth more, in the long haul, than any savings you might receive online.

As an example, during the meter can and breaker shortage, they have had everything you could need in stock for same day pickup. I ssked one manager why they don’t sell their stock online, his reply was so they can have it for their local contractors.

I value local relationships far more than supporting buthead oligarchs like bazos. If you live in the weeds and have no local vendors to depend on, then that is a different story. If the need is urgent and the customer wants to order something online, I’ll let them do it on their dime, if the order comes in wrong or broken, it’s their problem and downtime. Thats when I tell them to send it back, and refer them to a local vendor, that knows what their doing, and has what they need in stock. They can send their driver to pick it up, then I can go put it in and get them back up and running. I can make more money by advising them how to handle their crisis and installing what they need sooner, than anything I could save by ordering online. Best part is the comments and gratitude they give once the crisis is over.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CMP said:


> *If all you do is install services and residential, that could work well.* If you need a new switchboard, to put under under an existing bus riser, and require a buss adapter to fit it in, Amazon is useless. Or if you need a AGC 3 amp fuse today because a entire plant is down because of it, Amazon is useless.
> 
> I value my relationships with my local wholesalers, and support them with every job. They support me likewise. Their in the business to know their products and sources, and to support their contractors. Having local inventory on hand is worth more, in the long haul, than any savings you might receive online.
> 
> ...


Words. My mouth. Put them back.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Joe, you got plenty of words already, you have been here proving that for awhile now, you don’t need any of my spittle.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I think you hit the nail right on the head with your post.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

CMP, I agree 100%
I don't use amazon subscriptions and I avoid shopping online when I can. I do buy in bulk from some sources and HD is pretty convenient. Most of the time I can wait, but some items I must have for emergencies. In the example of quad breakers, I've had calls like "I need a new panel because I'm getting an electric dryer and there's no more space in my panel" ...so it's nice to be able to say "Send me a picture of the label on the inside of your panel door and let's see if your panel can take twins" I have no objection to saving a customer over $1,500. Another reason I carry them is because a quad breaker is handy when you have a panel that someone made real pretty by leaving no extra wire going to the breakers -I hate this because you can't easily move things around. A quad makes the job go faster if you have to add a DP breaker and want to avoid adding extensions. That's just an example, but the point of sharing this is that for 2 years we've known this would happen and I don't want people to lose jobs because they can't get parts. I love my counter guys at the supply store and I bring them cookies and donuts, but if I can't wait, I can't wait.

Anyway, I'm not the person who complained about not being able to get stuff. If someone has a problem, I like to be the person to fix it. I'm just trying to be helpful to the guy who thinks quad breakers are mythical and whose inspector doesn't have the patience or intelligence to understand that an electrician is having trouble finding what he needs.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Long covid" is actually the obsessive compulsive mask wearing mental disorder people will continue to suffer from, for many years to come.


If you had someone in your home with a genetic condition that will not allow them to be vaccinated and makes them more vulnerable to the disease itself would you still call mask wearing obsessive compulsive behavior? Would you take the chance of bringing Covid home to them and taking their life? Yeah it's not fun! and the new B4 variant requires N99 masks for protection because the virus is much smaller in that variant. I'm not going to take even the smallest risk of killing a member of my family. 

Tom Horne


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here we go.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

my son is in a similar position with his wife, they both still mask in public


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> Here we go.


Election time is coming up. Are " They " saying that there is a super contagious version going around?


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Which "They" are you asking about? Is it the Illuminati Cabal at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) that is planning to inject us all with microchips through vaccination needles so that they can control our minds? Yeah now doctors are the new secret control conspiracy out to kill all... Oh blast I'm making myself sick even when the rhetoric is meant to be a parody it makes me gag.

Tom Horne


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

hornetd said:


> Which "They" are you asking about? Is it the Illuminati Cabal at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) that is planning to inject us all with microchips through vaccination needles so that they can control our minds? Yeah now doctors are the new secret control conspiracy out to kill all... Oh blast I'm making myself sick even when the rhetoric is meant to be a parody it makes me gag.
> 
> Tom Horne


 No need for microchips. Everyone willingly carries their tracking device with them where ever they go. It works well as mind control for many as well.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> Which "They" are you asking about? Is it the Illuminati Cabal at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) that is planning to inject us all with microchips through vaccination needles so that they can control our minds? Yeah now doctors are the new secret control conspiracy out to kill all... Oh blast I'm making myself sick even when the rhetoric is meant to be a parody it makes me gag.
> 
> Tom Horne


Exactly


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hornetd said:


> Which "They" are you asking about? Is it the Illuminati Cabal at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) that is planning to inject us all with microchips through vaccination needles so that they can control our minds? Yeah now doctors are the new secret control conspiracy out to kill all... Oh blast I'm making myself sick even when the rhetoric is meant to be a parody it makes me gag.
> 
> Tom Horne


So you heard about the CDC too!


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Anyway, as an attempt at getting back to the topic at hand, I'm doing a panel changeout for retail/office this weekend. When I leave Saturday night the only thing I will worry about is getting paid.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

SWDweller said:


> Hard dollar bid you own the problems. T&M is self explanatory.


I beg to differ. The SCOPE OF WORK needs to be SPECIFIC in all bids. Limit to change out "like for like" and within panel corrections where not to code. Anything OUTSIDE of the panel/meter can is a CHANGE ORDER, PERIOD. It is ok to spend a few minutes if you think you know where a problem is, but if it can not be pinpointed instantly and repaired within a couple minutes then time to write the change.
Currently, damn near every AHJ is making new and different requirements during panel change outs, many exceed code requirements. IF the AHJ suddenly decides that hard wired smoke detectors are required you may not know until it is rejected. The AHJ's PURPOSEFULLY do not include this information at permit, and you may not know before the permit. There are more than 30 AHJ's in my county alone and I work three counties!
Where OBVIOUS non-electricians have been working and tying crap together and making dangerous conditions exist, it is NOT "automatically" owned by the electrician because he finds an issue. It is the Contractor's responsibility to NOTIFY the Client of the IS condition, the Danger involved, and then get APPROVAL to make repairs. 
I will NEVER make any repair (other than as mentioned above) without a specific approval by the customer. Once you begin doing that you TRULY OWN all the problems. ALL OF THEM.
On the one or two occasions where an AHJ DID tell us of the new requirement, it meant a change order before we would purchase the permit at all!


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