# UGLY service upgrade problem



## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I’ve been pressured into quoting a service upgrade for a rural address – pics from the estimate attached. Orleans County NY, National Grid -- about 2 hrs RT.

It doesn’t show well in the pic, but when I was there, it looked like standing water over much of the basement floor (dirt, I think) – maybe 50%, maybe 1” or so deep.

I was considering putting in an outdoor meter-main with 40-space distribution, and maybe run large PVC conduit down into some kind of massive junction box in place of the panel, to tie in all the branch circuits. Maybe GFCI/AFCI the whole works.

I’ve been hoping this person would go away and find another contractor out there, and it hasn’t worked. I’m thinking there must not be any decent electricians out that way, or none dumb enough to take this job. Hard to believe. I'm thinking, no one deserves to die this way. I'm also thinking she must have inherited some money. I"m also thinking this is the literal definition of a can of worms. And I'm afraid if I do take it, my crew will all quit. 

I'd be interested in thoughts or suggestions. And I realize I'm kind of leaving the door open here for all the Benny Goodmans.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Running all your circuits in one conduit will cause some de rating issues.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Personally, I don't see the problem. for 2020, put in a new service with disco outside...so id use a meter combo. I would do pvc for a riser but if u can do se ...whatevs. 

Whats yourfear here? whats the problem?


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Majewski said:


> Whats yourfear here? whats the problem?


The real fear is the job that never ends. 
Also, liability.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

backstay said:


> Running all your circuits in one conduit will cause some de rating issues.


Yeah ... plus, later on, messy business adding any new circuits. 
Maybe a 40-sp sub in the basement. Probably last _my_ lifetime, anyway.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Just make sure you know how many of those circuits will need to be spliced outside the service, how far away from the service you are going to secure the wiring. And don’t let the inspector bully you into fixing anything other than the service change.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

I’d do a rigid mast offset around the roof and attach to that and a new panel and a bunch of j boxes in basement and leave a note in the contract your not responsible for any old wiring and recommend a
Whole house Rewire. Looks like another day another dollar to me


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Not to mention the problem of the gas meter. 
The utility company requires 3-ft clearance.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Slay301 said:


> a new panel and a bunch of j boxes in basement


I assume you meant panel in basement.
My concern there is (a) the floor is quite wet, and (b) the floor is quite wet. Corrosion, for starters.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

backstay said:


> And don’t let the inspector bully you into fixing anything other than the service change.


Not a problem. The bigger "can of worms" concern is doing the right thing with AFCI and/or GFCI, and the house wiring is so bad the circuits don't hold. Now we're into a troubleshooting nightmare.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

liable for what? we're contractors, we follow the code....do the job to code, get paid per contract, move on....whats the deal


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Majewski said:


> liable for what? we're contractors, we follow the code....do the job to code, get paid per contract, move on....whats the deal


Nice theory. Lawyers and insurance companies don't work that way. I'm there, do all this work, a month later there's a fire or somebody gets hurt -- I get sued, no matter what. These days, EVERYONE gets sucked in.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Yeah I agree with the general consensus that this is a routine job. Do you just not do resi? You’re overthinking yourself out of the game. PVC riser to a meter main that’s three feet from the gas meter, new panel in basement, grounding and bonding to code.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

mikewillnot said:


> Nice theory. Lawyers and insurance companies don't work that way. I'm there, do all this work, a month later there's a fire or somebody gets hurt -- I get sued, no matter what. These days, EVERYONE gets sucked in.


LOL might as well just quit now


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

you your already putting in a new meters and panel makes it easier move it wherever u want and you have power the whole time your working if your worried about moister mount the panel to vertical strut to hold it off the wall


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Majewski said:


> LOL might as well just quit now


Ya just put it in writing you are
Not liable and recommend whole house re wire


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> Ya just put it in writing you are
> Not liable and recommend whole house re wire


if hes so damn scared, why even entertain this or just block the damn number....


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> if hes so damn scared, why even entertain this or just block the damn number....


If every job was better than this one…. things would be real slow. Sometimes you have to get dirty and get it done.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> If every job was better than this one…. things would be real slow. Sometimes you have to get dirty and get it done.


this doesnt even look bad, its totally cut n dry


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Majewski said:


> this doesnt even look bad, its totally cut n dry


I have to agree, I would do it without thinking twice.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> I have to agree, I would do it without thinking twice.


even easier when u can do se cable....


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Could you put a new meter main on the right side of the window with a PVC mast to the peak, and put the new load center inside? After the inspection the switch over to the old Romex runs should go pretty smoothly. 
Love them or not, the GE Powermark Gold load centers with the galvanized tub last a good little while.
That basement looks like most houses from the 40’s-50’s around here. Tell them to put on their Muck boots and quit whining.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Any time I got a job I really didn’t want to do I jacked the price up.
Any where from 30 to 50% above my going rate.
Don't know if I was the only one bidding on the job or other bids were higher.
Most of the time I ended up with the job anyway.
Oh, well I'll take their money.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CHARGE LARGE. And here it is 20 feet from gas meters or tanks, but that's the gas company rules not electrical or poco.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

What we gonna do after lunch


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## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

It's usually easier than it looks. Also put on the bill, "recommend a sump pump / dehumidifier in basement" You could sale them hard wired smokes and CO detectors.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

That's your average farmhouse basement around WNY. Offer them a price on the service upgrade and a price to separate (rewire) circuits after the service is released to Poco by the AHJ. Neither the Poco or AHJ will give two shits about the branch circuits on this permit, just the service entrance.

If you're really that concerned, contact Nat grid and ask the project planner they assign where they want the riser and meter. Then contact AHJ to ask about the interior sub location. Build it how they want it. I can tell you right now I'd do a riser and meter main 3' to the right of that window, and feed the basement sub with SER. There's more than enough slack in the branch circuit wiring to relocate the interior panel a few feet to the right if you needed to.

Despite the older home and stone basement, this should be a routine job.


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## Rickierockit (Aug 26, 2021)

Just charge them what you think it’s worth to do the job ... they take it great! If they don’t, great! You’re a qualified electrician aren’t you? A leader correct? Let’s go. Cut the power, get some lights going, crank the tunes, and get to work! Everything YOU do make it code compliant, then anything environmentally that could damage anything in the future is the HOME OWNERS problem ... especially if it’s in writing. You got this bro, if your guys complain .... take them to the bar after. Cheers 🍻


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

What do you mean by pressured? Who's the boss of you? 

Why are they doing the service upgrade? 

I would have about zero problem or hesitation requiring that they install a sump pump for that basement first. This being a job you don't really want anyway. At worst it would get them to stop pressuring you. It wouldn't be expensive, and it would be money well spent. You could do it yourself if licensing permits, sub it out, or just tell them they have to have it done by others (this is what I'd do). 

To do the actual work - could you run SER to a meter-main in a better spot, then remove the main bond and separate the neutrals and EGCs in the existing panel? I would much rather have the first means of disconnect in a place that doesn't flood. Does that homeowner want to have to poke around down there if they have to get to that main? You could do the basement work while the service is disconnected. I don't know if they are adding a car charger, mini split, or what, but you could probably work that into the design easy enough.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

mikewillnot said:


> I'm also thinking she must have inherited some money.


I'm interested on how you came to this conclusion?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

oldsparky52 said:


> I'm interested on how you came to this conclusion?


You could inherit some money by doing this job too 😂


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Slay301 said:


> You could inherit some money by doing this job too 😂


LOL


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> I'm interested on how you came to this conclusion?


Just off the top of my head. Mainly because I'm going to quote it high -- appropriately so, for my market and the nature of the job, maybe not for hers.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

splatz said:


> I would have about zero problem or hesitation requiring that they install a sump pump for that basement first


Basement floors aren't really my area... but this seems like a good idea, either before or after.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

ohm it hertz said:


> That's your average farmhouse basement around WNY. Offer them a price on the service upgrade and a price to separate (rewire) circuits after the service is released to Poco by the AHJ. Neither the Poco or AHJ will give two shits about the branch circuits on this permit, just the service entrance.
> 
> If you're really that concerned, contact Nat grid and ask the project planner they assign where they want the riser and meter. Then contact AHJ to ask about the interior sub location. Build it how they want it. I can tell you right now I'd do a riser and meter main 3' to the right of that window, and feed the basement sub with SER. There's more than enough slack in the branch circuit wiring to relocate the interior panel a few feet to the right if you needed to.
> 
> Despite the older home and stone basement, this should be a routine job.


Thanks.
This actually seems about right. I contacted the inspector, and we're on the same page. Now for the pricing. 

And for all the other wise men out there ... I've done a ton of resi over the years, enough to know that I don't have to take on PITA jobs, at any price, if I don't want to. The PITA ones I usually regret later on, when they go off the rails, and the regret is only sometimes a matter of money. Some jobs just aren't worth the hassle, and part of my job these days is to spot those ahead of time.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

Majewski said:


> LOL might as well just quit now


Disagree. I generally don't work in houses with aluminum branch circuits, either. Same reason. 
There's plenty of other work around, and plenty of "competitors" who are ... insufficiently aware ... of liability risks. 
In fact, I love guys like that... their only and best argument for why someone should hire them is usually "I'm cheaper."


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

House that age will FOR SURE have mixed up neutrals or worse, remnants of K&T with a single neutral strung to every circuit in the ceiling on the main floor (under second floor).

Let them know (verbally AND in writing) there could be a lot of non working circuits after the panel change with AFCIs (unless you choose AFCI breakers without the GFP), and those will be extras if they want them fixed.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

splatz said:


> I would much rather have the first means of disconnect in a place that doesn't flood.


Amen, brother!


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

There is one good thing about this job. You have plenty of room to walk around in the basement. It sucks when you have to crawl and dig pathways to move through a basement.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I’ve never understood why anyone would put AFCI breakers on existing construction. They’ve gotten better but they’re a nuisance. Until they can detect a glowing wire nut, regular breakers for me please.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

mikewillnot said:


> Thanks.
> This actually seems about right. I contacted the inspector, and we're on the same page. Now for the pricing.
> 
> And for all the other wise men out there ... I've done a ton of resi over the years, enough to know that I don't have to take on PITA jobs, at any price, if I don't want to. The PITA ones I usually regret later on, when they go off the rails, and the regret is only sometimes a matter of money. Some jobs just aren't worth the hassle, and part of my job these days is to spot those ahead of time.


whats the problem with al wiring?


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## Scubahigh97 (Aug 18, 2021)

mikewillnot said:


> I’ve been pressured into quoting a service upgrade for a rural address – pics from the estimate attached. Orleans County NY, National Grid -- about 2 hrs RT.
> 
> It doesn’t show well in the pic, but when I was there, it looked like standing water over much of the basement floor (dirt, I think) – maybe 50%, maybe 1” or so deep.
> 
> ...


I see money


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