# combination arc faults?



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Read the definition of _Outlet_ in Art. 100.


----------



## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

Not sure 100% on this and in NJ we are not making anyone comply with 2008 yet but in a CE class I believe I heard that all of the home is going to be either GF or AF as well as Tamper proof. I didnt hear anything about lighting & appliances but I do know that its all the outlets in a dwelling. Were still on the 2005. Did anyone else from NJ get their renewal letter ? I got mine today, they want to and encourage to pay online with a CC......... There all due end of March.... better get crackin, I still need 15 hrs.... of the 34


----------



## mollydog (Jan 9, 2009)

isnt an "outlet" any point of the system that "consumes" not controls electrical current..................


----------



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

kenneth moore said:


> has anyone been butting heads with inspectors on this article? It seems they are using the word "oulet" to be utilization equipment, or in other words any thing that uses electricity including lighting. I did not expect to put them on any lighting ckts. I also have concerns about putting the combos on small appliance ckt.s: washer, m/w, d/w, disp., ect.
> Don't want to have tons of service calls for faulty arc faults.
> 
> what is everyone doing on combination arc faults?


Lighting must be on arc fault however the kitchen and bathrooms are exempt. Read art. 210.12


----------



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

mollydog said:


> isnt an "outlet" any point of the system that "consumes" not controls electrical current..................


Here is the definition


> Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

kenneth moore said:


> It seems they are using the word "oulet" to be utilization equipment, or in other words any thing that uses electricity including lighting. I did not expect to put them on any lighting ckts.


The others are right Ken. An outlet is the box a light fixture or smoke detector mounts to, as well as receptacle. A lighting outlet and a receptacle outlet are both outlets.






kenneth moore said:


> I also have concerns about putting the combos on small appliance ckt.s: washer, m/w, d/w, disp., ect.
> Don't want to have tons of service calls for faulty arc faults.


I suggest you read up on 210.12. None of those items require AFCI protection.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

What I find fairly ridiculous about this whole AFCI business is this:

You have a group of circuits that will follow a chase/path/common space in a dwelling.
Some of these circuits will pass through areas that require AFCI...some that don't ~ and yet, the NEC is only concerned with the final resting place of the circuit.

It doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> What I find fairly ridiculous about this whole AFCI business is this:
> 
> You have a group of circuits that will follow a chase/path/common space in a dwelling.
> Some of these circuits will pass through areas that require AFCI...some that don't ~ and yet, the NEC is only concerned with the final resting place of the circuit.
> ...


Yet that was a common misconception (mis-interpretation, actually) when AFCIs first hit the market. If a circuit passed by a bedroom, it 'had' to be AFCI-protected.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Yet that was a common misconception (mis-interpretation, actually) when AFCIs first hit the market. If a circuit passed by a bedroom, it 'had' to be AFCI-protected.


Well it's still a misconception over here :blink:

WHY do we have AFCI protection?
Is it to protect the cable assembly from eager picture hangers or to protect the circuit from faulty cords?

Now chose wisely ~ you know I have another question coming up no matter how you answer this :yes:


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Well it's still a misconception over here :blink:
> 
> WHY do we have AFCI protection?
> Is it to protect the cable assembly from eager picture hangers or to protect the circuit from faulty cords?
> ...


I'll say both, but the latter is all the NEC cares about. For now.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

If the concern is limited to faulty cords [for now], why the need for AFCI protection on say a lighting/FA circuit in a BR and not the kitchen?
A lighting/FA circuit does not not utilize cords.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> If the concern is limited to faulty cords [for now], why the need for AFCI protection on say a lighting/FA circuit in a BR and not the kitchen?
> A lighting/FA circuit does not not utilize cords.


Floor / table lamps utilize cords, and a switched recep would be a legal lighting outlet.


----------



## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

really not a big deal anymore.(2008 NEC) Been here since 12:01 AM 1/01/09.
They are down to $35 a pc for the breakers.

Just pass it on to the consumer. The way life is.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

leland said:


> really not a big deal anymore.(2008 NEC) Been here since 12:01 AM 1/01/09.
> They are down to $35 a pc for the breakers.
> 
> Just pass it on to the consumer. The way life is.


You say this. Me, I just had to go on Saturday back to a job I completed only 3 months ago. I warrenty for one year (law). The bedroom outlets were not working. I checked breaker first. Wont reset. Open panel, remove both hot and neutral from said combo afci breaker. Still won't reset. Removed breaker and muttered under breath while heading to van to get replacement. Today, the wholesaler tried to not accept it back. It took a bit of rememberin on his part about how often and how much I spent there before he changed his mind. His comment- this is getting to be a real problem for me.....


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Floor / table lamps utilize cords, and a switched recep would be a legal lighting outlet.


Granted....but for this debate, let's assume we are going above bare code minimum.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

leland said:


> really not a big deal anymore.(2008 NEC) Been here since 12:01 AM 1/01/09.
> They are down to $35 a pc for the breakers.
> 
> Just pass it on to the consumer. The way life is.



The financial aspect is really not the point, the theory/logic behind the requirement is what is being questioned.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Celtic said:


> The financial aspect is really not the point, the theory/logic behind the requirement is what is being questioned.


Whenever the cost of AFCIs is brought up, it's usually by someone that's unhappy with the concept.

I reply with, "Well, how much did you spend to have headlights, turn signals, brake lights, safety glass, emergency flashers, crumple zones, mirrors, a horn, seat belts, anti-lock brakes, shock absorbers, and air bags installed in your car?"


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Whenever the cost of AFCIs is brought up, it's usually by someone that's unhappy with the concept.
> 
> I reply with, "Well, how much did you spend to have headlights, turn signals, brake lights, safety glass, emergency flashers, crumple zones, mirrors, a horn, seat belts, anti-lock brakes, shock absorbers, and air bags installed in your car?"


Most of those Items last more than 3 months , or the folks who sold you the item they came with will fix them at their own labor expense. This has only happened to me once so far now, but I am a bit worried that it might be more, especially after hearing how it isn't so rare from the owner of that wholesale house.


----------



## TheElectricalGuru (Jan 16, 2007)

I have to say that while doing seminars around the country I hear alot of people with different sides to the AFCI requirements. The main reason ( My Opinion ) we have seen the AFCI move from receptacles in bedrooms to outlets in bedrooms to now majority of the outlets in the dwelling is simply based on trial and error.

For those who do not understand how an AFCI functions and the internal components regarding processors, capacitors and bleeding resistors and so on that are vital to an AFCI's function let alone the 75A to 5A peak drop in the combination devices it is hard for them to grasp....but I always ask this question....Q: Would you think of building a house today without smoke detectors? A: is always NO......so my response is by the time they go off it is too late as the fire has already started in most cases....with an AFCI you atleast hope to stop or prevent an issue that you can't see and if it saves one life I can't put a price tag on that.

As for defective product, you are going to have that with anything and with the demand of AFCI requirements the more product is being put into the market you are bound to have some issues over the time but one issue as a whole does not make a industry wide issue per'se.

AFCI's work....the combination devices are worth the money and they will slowly come down in price as we expand it even more. The issues that concern people are the reasons the 2008 NEC did not mandate ALL areas and leave off issues like Kitchens and Bathroom circuits and so on....I would mark it up as the same reason they changed from receptacles in 1999 to outlets in 2002 and so on.....trial by error and the understanding you have to start somewhere...we all have to start somewhere.

It has always been my belief that GFCI's provide some level of protecting for arching situations in some fashion but obviously not in the fashion that AFCI's do it...take a series arc that ends up melting down contacts just before its ignition point...chances are it will cause a ground fault condition in the process and hopefully a GFCI will detect it.....however that is not perfect and hopefully the idea is the AFCI will stop it even before it gets to that point......in my opinion if we are going to mandate AFCI's in the level it has been done with the 2008 NEC we then should look at 2011 making it's move to require AFCI on all 15 & 20A 120V applications everythwere in the dwelling....which may or maynot be coming.

Just my views......I have actually been to PA to see them in action and see their function and results of many tests and I am sold on the AFCI concept.....the only thing I differ in is the applications....


----------



## busymnky (Feb 16, 2009)

Has anyone out there been able to buy and install any form of A.F.C.I. protection other than a breaker. I tried here in Denver but couldn't find what I wanted. I found references to combo devices, even patents for them (one was Mike Holt's partners'), but nothing on the shelves. All the inspector required was that the new smoke I installed be A.F.I. protected. No big deal, but I had to totally rework the tiny little panel, and buy a tandem breaker as well as the afi to make it happen. An afi recep would've been so cheep and easy!


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

busymnky said:


> Has anyone out there been able to buy and install any form of A.F.C.I. protection other than a breaker. I tried here in Denver but couldn't find what I wanted. I found references to combo devices, even patents for them (one was Mike Holt's partners'), but nothing on the shelves. All the inspector required was that the new smoke I installed be A.F.I. protected. No big deal, but I had to totally rework the tiny little panel, and buy a tandem breaker as well as the afi to make it happen. An afi recep would've been so cheep and easy!


AFAIK, no one makes an AFCI receptacle.


----------

