# Fused A/C disconnects



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Is there any advantage to adding localized fused protection for A/C equipment even when the nameplate allows a breaker?
> 
> Only reason I ask is that I picked up a bunch of fused A/C disconnects at HD on clearance for $1.40 each. :laughing: I figure at the very least I'll put some pieces of copper tubing in there to bypass the fuse holders. :w00t:


 
I've had HVAC contractors require a fused disconnect. I definately would have bought all I could at that price. No copper tubing though.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Good job getting those discos for that price! 
If the nameplate allows for max fuse or hacr breaker for example, I don't see how it can hurt to have a fused disconnect but if it's labled "max time-delay fuse" then it's required, not sure what the hvac guy has do with your disconnect. most hvac installers that I work with just tell me the amperes over the phone or give me a cut-sheet so i know what awg to run before hand. After that, I do what I need to do, they do what they need to do and the unit is up and running.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's still some equipment out there that says "max fuse size". I'd save those discos for the special occasions where the equipment must have fuses. Other than that, I see no advantage.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> There's still some equipment out there that says "max fuse size". I'd save those discos for the special occasions where the equipment must have fuses. Other than that, I see no advantage.


Thanks, I didn't see any advantage either, but wanted to make sure.


As an FYI, HD and Lowes are clearing out their stock of Square D A/C disconnects. I bought a case of non-fused 60 A regular pull out style for $3.23 each on clearance at Lowes. HD also had them on clearance for the same price. Good time to stock up now for next year. :thumbsup:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

One disadvantage to using fused disconnects for A/C equipment is that in the event of a fault, a fuse will blow before a breaker will trip. 

A fuse needs to be replaced, a breaker can be reset. 

Rob


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

micromind said:


> One disadvantage to using fused disconnects for A/C equipment is that in the event of a fault, a fuse will blow before a breaker will trip.
> 
> A fuse needs to be replaced, a breaker can be reset.
> 
> Rob


 
That is a good thing.. HO will reset a circuit breaker, but most won't go near a fuse that needs a "puller" to get it out 

I don't think Peter would mind doing the service call :thumbsup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> That is a good thing.. HO will reset a circuit breaker, but most won't go near a fuse that needs a "puller" to get it out
> 
> I don't think Peter would mind doing the service call :thumbsup:


Haha...yeah. I do HVAC work on the side now. :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Haha...yeah. I do HVAC work on the side now. :whistling2:


So on your resume, you list HVAC experience because you changed a fuse? :laughing::laughing:

I forgot thermostat "analysis"


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Haha...yeah. I do HVAC work on the side now. :whistling2:


Maybe you could get a job as a full time spelling cop? :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe you could get a job as a full time spelling cop? :laughing:


good one :laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Fuses ofter better protection than breakers. They clear faster than breakers and if properly sized are better for arc flash mitigation.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe you could get a job as a full time spelling cop? :laughing:


:lol: :thumbup:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Maybe you could get a job as a full time spelling cop? :laughing:


 
And what just have him jump right over the yellow striper and put him out of business?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't think Peter would mind doing the service call :thumbsup:


 
I bet he is cutting the copper to length already.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> And what just have him jump right over the yellow striper and put him out of business?


Ooohh...the big scary doggy is back. :sleep1:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> I bet he is cutting the copper to length already.


Does it make you feel like a big man to make fun of everybody?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Does it make you feel like a big man to make fun of everybody?


Nope, it's called a sense of humor, I exercise mine all the time. It keeps me young and smiling. If you think I'm bad you need to hang out with a group of Marines sometime. I'm just having fun, unlike a few guys on here that feel it's necessary to spell check and play grammer teacher to the forum as a whole.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> I'm just having fun, unlike a few guys on here that feel it's necessary to spell check and play grammer teacher to the forum as a whole.


You have no sense of humor.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> and play grammer teacher to the forum as a whole.


It's "grammar", not "grammer".


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> It's "grammar", not "grammer".


WOW.. I must be really smart cause I understood what he meant even with a mis - spelled word 

We have hundreds of regular posters here and only (2) spelling morons 

Evolution now makes A-Holes in pairs :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Fuses can be a way to ensure the motor burns up if there is no single phase protective device installed somplace on a three phase air conditioning system. I am well aware of the requirements for fused disco's on many ac machines per the nameplate. When I wire up expensive package units or chillers and they want a fused disco, I put in a single phase relay protection unit and sleep well.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's "grammar", not "grammer".


It was a quick responce, I wasn't pa in a tension, my loptop was in my lap, my dog was pushing keys, the kids were fite in, I was up all nite, or maybe I rally dont give a ****e about it.

Does reading that pinch a nerve or flick a soft spot in your mind?

Do my posting skills have any reflection on how I perform my job skills?

What's it like being so anal?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Fuses can be a way to ensure the motor burns up if there is no single phase protective device installed somplace on a three phase air conditioning system. I am well aware of the requirements for fused disco's on many ac machines per the nameplate. When I wire up expensive package units or chillers and they want a fused disco, I put in a single phase relay protection unit and sleep well.


 
I haven't seen a real commerical and or industrial unit that doesn't come
with a phase monitor in a long time. Exception being the cheap Chinese
cold head chillers for MRIs.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> It was a quick responce, I wasn't pa in a tension, my loptop was in my lap, my dog was pushing keys, the kids were fite in, I was up all nite, or maybe I rally dont give a ****e about it.
> 
> Does reading that pinch a nerve or flick a soft spot in your mind?
> 
> ...


For someone who likes to dish it out, you sure can't take it very well. :laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Evolution now makes A-Holes in pairs :laughing:


Wanna call me up and call me an "a-hole" tough guy? 

Be gone...you bore me. :sleep1:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Wanna call me up and call me an "a-hole" tough guy?


why.. you having trouble understanding the meaning :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Be gone...you bore me. :sleep1:


You still ranting about the "Chinese sheetrock" thread I started


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> why.. you having trouble understanding the meaning :laughing:


Right..you're just kidding. Sure...calling someone an "a-hole" is just a joke, right?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> You still ranting about the "Chinese sheetrock" thread I started


:sleep1:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Right..you're just kidding. Sure...calling someone an "a-hole" is just a joke, right?


YES.. it is a joke :jester:

Don't be so sensitive


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> For someone who likes to dish it out, you sure can't take it very well. :laughing:


 
Oh, if you only had a clue. You need to get out more often and hang out with the guys at a bar or something. Were you an only child that spent a great deal of time close to mommy?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> YES.. it is a joke :jester:
> 
> Don't be so sensitive


 
Don't bust his balls so bad, it's a bad time for him right now, he has a thought that MD might have an ex wife in the future so he thinks he may have a shot....


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> YES.. it is a joke :jester:


Oh, ok. My bad. :jester:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Don't bust his balls so bad, it's a bad time for him right now, he has a thought that MD might have an ex wife in the future so he thinks he may have a shot....


 
:laughing:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Oh, if you only had a clue. You need to get out more often and hang out with the guys at a bar or something. Were you an only child that spent a great deal of time close to mommy?


I dunno...you get awfully bent out of shape when someone points out a few spelling errors you made (as a joke, incidentally.  ) I see a pattern here. I found your Achilles heel.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Don't bust his balls so bad, it's a bad time for him right now, he has a thought that MD might have an ex wife in the future so he thinks he may have a shot....


Ouch...big doggy made a funny.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I dunno...you get awfully bent out of shape when someone points out a few spelling errors you made (as a joke, incidentally.  ) I see a pattern here. I found your Achilles heel.


 
Like I said get a clue. I am a very reciprocal guy I dish it out just as fast as it comes in. It's when I'm quiet that people have to worry.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Ouch...big doggy made a funny.


Keep it up and he just might come over and take a big dump on your front lawn


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Stop ruining my thread with this nonsense.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Keep it up and he just might come over and take a big dump on your front lawn


 
That's probably one of the reasons he can't put a location on his avatar, 
he's afraid someone might be looking for him.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> That's probably one of the reasons he can't put a location on his avatar,
> he's afraid someone might be looking for him.


I've never put my location in and I never will. It's none of anybody's business where I live, especially a bunch of internet strangers, and those that need to know, do know.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I've never put my location in and I never will. It's none of anybody's business where I live, especially a bunch of internet strangers, and those that need to know, do know.


Is your number in the phone book? Gonna come out to a meet and greet if MD gets one together?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Is your number in the phone book?


Yes, it's 123-456-7890. You can call me anytime.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Yes, it's 123-456-7890. You can call me anytime.


Gee I had you pegged for something more along the lines of 1-800-3 (E) 2 (A) 8 (T) - 7 (S) 4 (H) 4 (I) 8 (T) or one of those fancy numbers.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Gee I had you pegged for something more along the lines of 1-800-3 (E) 2 (A) 8 (T) - 7 (S) 4 (H) 4 (I) 8 (T) or one of those fancy numbers.


Wow...your'e hilarious. I guess you're trying to make me mad or something. Sorry, not going to happen. This is getting boring now. :sleep1:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Gonna come out to a meet and greet if MD gets one together?


Now, that is a great question. Is there a meet and greet?


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Now, that is a great question. Is there a meet and greet?


 
My brother in law mentioned it to me a week or so back, said they were talking about the DC area.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> It was a quick responce, I wasn't pa in a tension, my loptop was in my lap, my dog was pushing keys, the kids were fite in, I was up all nite, or maybe I rally dont give a ****e about it.
> 
> Does reading that pinch a nerve or flick a soft spot in your mind?
> 
> ...


 

It's "qwick" not "quick" and "kidz" not "kids":whistling2:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It's "qwick" not "quick" and "kidz" not "kids":whistling2:


 
:thumbsup: Thanks for the heads up


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> My brother in law mentioned it to me a week or so back, said they were talking about the DC area.


I had a meet and greet last May. :thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> It's when I'm quiet that people have to worry.


Well holy crap, we all pray you don't get quiet. :laughing:

Whenever you post all I can think of is Psycho in the movie Stripes.


_*Psycho:* The name's Francis Soyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you. 

*Leon:* Ooooooh. 

*Psycho:* You just made the list, buddy. And I don't like nobody touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. Also, I don't like nobody touching me. Now, any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you. _




Peter D said:


> I had a meet and greet last May. :thumbsup:


Yeah, was it that long ago? Hell it was only CT maybe we should have invited Psycho ...er I mean random killer, but I don't think they allow guns in the Casino. :laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Is your number in the phone book? Gonna come out to a meet and greet if MD gets one together?


Mine is: 781-452-2664. Hit me up punk. We'll see if you're bite is as big as your bark.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Mine is. Hit me up punk: 781-452-2664.


OK now, we all start pranking that number. :laughing:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Please do!


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> OK now, we all start pranking that number. :laughing:


I called it, and I'm not sure what it is. It started out like a Bible story number, then went into some ghetto rant. Pretty funny, whatever it is. I hope it didn't just cost $19.95 on my phone bill.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I called it, and I'm not sure what it is. It started out like a Bible story number, then went into some ghetto rant. Pretty funny, whatever it is. I hope it didn't just cost $19.95 on my phone bill.


 
I just tried it.. Bible stories.... figures coming from a Spelling Cop


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> We have hundreds of regular posters here and only (2) spelling morons


At least the spelling morons know what "over" 3000 posts means. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> At least the spelling morons know what "over" 3000 posts means. :laughing:


Yea..... well there are STILL only (2) spelling morons here :thumbsup:

Why is it you need to be so exact with spelling and punctuation, but your numbers run wild :blink:

5000 is also over 3000 :whistling2:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Yea..... well there are STILL only (2) spelling morons here :thumbsup:
> 
> Why is it you need to be so exact with spelling and punctuation, but your numbers run wild :blink:
> 
> 5000 is also over 3000 :whistling2:


You're reaching slim. It's sad that you are trying to say I'm way off my mark. I didn't say he had 3000. I said he had over 3000. Big big difference that you obviously can't understand. Maybe next semester you'll learn that word. :thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey thanks for the tip on the fused disconnects :thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Hey thanks for the tip on the fused disconnects :thumbup:



No problem. :thumbsup: Let us know how many you pick up.


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Is there any advantage to adding localized fused protection for A/C equipment even when the nameplate allows a breaker?
> 
> Only reason I ask is that I picked up a bunch of fused A/C disconnects at HD on clearance for $1.40 each. :laughing: I figure *at the very least I'll put some pieces of copper tubing in there to bypass the fuse holders.* :w00t:


That will work if the disconnect is listed for use with copper tubing and the copper tubing is UL listed to be used in the disconnect. 

Also, the disadvantage to having a fused disconnect (or even a breaker tor that matter) is the feeder overcurrent protective device is limited to the ampacity of the feeder. Example #14 - 15A, #12 - 20A, #10 - 30A. However, if a non-fused disconnect is installed then the branch circuit back to the panel can be sized using the *minium branch circuit ampacity* specified on the nameplate of the unit. Now #14 is rated at 20A, #12 - 25A and #10 - 35A and the OC device can be sized to the maximum on the nameplate. Look at the following two scenarios;

AC specs; 
minimum circuit ampacity 19 amps
Max HACR or fuse size oc device 35 amps

#1 - #14 NMSC to fused/breakered disconnect with 15A feeder protection. AC unit allows 35A OC device which requires a 60A disconnect. Since #14 romex was installed as the feeder the the feeder OC device is sized at 15A this could lead to nuisance tripping. 

#2 - #14 NMSC is installed as the branch circuit conductors from the panel to the non-fused/non-breakered disconnect (knife switch) and then # 14 THHN/THWN to the unit. HACR breaker installed at panel as branch circuit protective device is 35 amps.

Scenario #2 is code compliant and is less likely to lead to nuisance tripping.

If the nameplate specifies max fuse size only then scenario #1 is the way to go, however, the electrician should consider installing feeder conductors and feeder protection sized at 35 amps.

Finally, the advantage of using fuses is time delay.

If you disagree with this, please provide code sections to back it up.

Enjoy your day!!:thumbsup:


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Back when I used to work residential, I remember the bossman telling us to always "wire for the minimum and breaker for the max". We always used non-fusible disconnects so I guess this was why we could do that. I never understood what the purpose is for using fusible type disconnects and I still don't.


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*A/C Fuses*

Can be a newsome's problem, the weak point if you will that may cause you to comeback if you do not want to...Rental house is what I am talking about. copper pipe may be the answer.


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

IRMAN said:


> Can be a newsome's problem, the weak point if you will that may cause you to comeback if you do not want to...Rental house is what I am talking about. *copper pipe may be the answer*.


Copper pipe is a violation of 110.3(b). No disconnect manufacturer has a disconnect listed for use with copper tubing and no copper tubing manufacturer has their tubing listed as a current carrying conductor.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

IRMAN said:


> Can be a newsome's problem


What's newsome? I think you mean "nuissance".


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

just use 3/4 emt niples!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## IRMAN (Oct 31, 2009)

*A/C disconnect*

Thanks for spelling correction.I did not use either one, nipples or pipe. I am just saying I won't buy a fused disconnect for a/c protected already by breakers. Is there code or a purpose for a fused disconnect?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Whenever you post all I can think of is Psycho in the movie Stripes.
> :laughing:


 
RK and I go back to 1983, trust me he is more Gunny Hartman (F M J)
than any other movie character. He is a great friend to have. I have been his brother in law for three years now as well.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Fused A/C Disconnects.*



Peter D said:


> Is there any advantage to adding localized fused protection for A/C equipment even when the nameplate allows a breaker?
> 
> Only reason I ask is that I picked up a bunch of fused A/C disconnects at HD on clearance for $1.40 each. :laughing: I figure at the very least I'll put some pieces of copper tubing in there to bypass the fuse holders. :w00t:


 The copper tubing sounds like a good idea, at first... but would it satisfy the NEC's requirement of approved for the purpose? (Even though we both know it would work)


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> The copper tubing sounds like a good idea, at first... but would it satisfy the NEC's requirement of suitable for the purpose? (Even though we both know it would work)


It was a joke. Hence why I followed that comment up with a :w00t: . I would actually put real fuses in them. I have a whole bunch of old cartridge fuses sitting around just waiting to get used for something like this.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

electures said:


> Copper pipe is a violation of 110.3(b). No disconnect manufacturer has a disconnect listed for use with copper tubing and no copper tubing manufacturer has their tubing listed as a current carrying conductor.


Thank you for the dissertation on why copper tubing is not a suitable replacement for a fuse. Only a hack would use copper tubing.


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Wow, there is a lot of fighting in this thread.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> Wow, there is a lot of fighting in this thread.


Stop threadjacking my thread!


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Stop threadjacking my thread!


Oh yeah, you wanna call me and say that?!?! My phone number is (202) 833-7000



:whistling2::thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> Oh yeah, you wanna call me and say that?!?! My phone number is (202) 833-7000
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2::thumbup:


Is that the number for Local 3 by any chance? :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Fused a/c disconnect*



Peter D said:


> It was a joke. Hence why I followed that comment up with a :w00t: . I would actually put real fuses in them. I have a whole bunch of old cartridge fuses sitting around just waiting to get used for something like this.


 Okay, I get it...I don't pay much attention to the faces but Ill try to. I have actually seen what you are talking about in my travels...I knew that you were not substituting.
:thumbup::thumbsup: Coooool, I just did it.


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Is that the number for Local 3 by any chance? :laughing:


That's the main IBEW number. I don't know local 3's number, I hate working in the city.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> That's the main IBEW number. I don't know local 3's number, I hate working in the city.


Ahh right...I saw the (202) and I thought it was Manhattan for some reason. But alas, it's Washington, DC. I guess I'm really not a guru after all.


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Ahh right...I saw the (202) and I thought it was Manhattan for some reason. But alas, it's Washington, DC. I guess I'm really not a guru after all.


212 is NYC. DUH!!!!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> 212 is NYC. DUH!!!!


See, I was close!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> 212 is NYC. DUH!!!!


Problem is you didn't put 212, you put 202. And 202 is DC. DUH!!


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Problem is you didn't put 212, you put 202. And 202 is DC. DUH!!


You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Go back and read the posts again, it might take you a few times but you'll figure it out.

The order is as follows:

Read.
Comprehend.
Post.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> Go back and read the posts again, it might take you a few times but you'll figure it out.
> 
> ...


Here's a clue: "Oh yeah, you wanna call me and say that?!?! My phone number is (202) 833-7000"


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Here's a clue: "Oh yeah, you wanna call me and say that?!?! My phone number is (202) 833-7000"


Which is exactly what he meant to say. I agree - you need to slow down and re-read the thread.


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Which is exactly what he meant to say. I agree - you need to slow down and re-read the thread.


I hate him even more with every username that I make...


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> I hate him even more with every username that I make...



Oh this must be RK! How ya doing bud! Hahaha. :no:


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Oh this must be RK! How ya doing bud! Hahaha. :no:


RK? I don't think I ever had the initials RK. Peter remembers my usernames better than me, he'll know.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> RK? I don't think I ever had the initials RK. Peter remembers my usernames better than me, he'll know.


It's getting harder and harder to keep track of them all. :laughing:


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## EDM (Nov 3, 2009)

Oh, wait, I think he means RandomKiller. If so, that's not me.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> RK? I don't think I ever had the initials RK. Peter remembers my usernames better than me, he'll know.


I assumed RK. Randomkiller.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> Oh, wait, I think he means RandomKiller. If so, that's not me.


Magnettica?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

EDM said:


> Oh, wait, I think he means RandomKiller. If so, that's not me.



CaptKirk?


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Steelersman is a telephone tough guy.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Steelersman is a telephone tough guy.


No. I'm an internet thug. Get it straight.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Steelersman is a telephone tough guy.


And you're a Forum Fairy. :thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

steelersman said:


> And you're a Forum Fairy. :thumbsup:


It's whatever it takes. Thug life.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> It's whatever it takes. Thug life.


Hahaha. I guess.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Is EDM that Turd guy that was here a few weeks back?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

He's definitely a turd. Yes.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

steelersman said:


> He's definitely a turd. Yes.


:laughing:


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

electures said:


> If you disagree with this, please provide code sections to back it up.
> 
> Enjoy your day!!:thumbsup:


I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit

OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. I'll

provide as many code sections as you do.


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Benaround said:


> I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit
> 
> OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. I'll
> 
> provide as many code sections as you do.


You are incorrect.

Article 100 Definitions which states;


*Branch Circuit, Individual. *
A branch circuit that supplies *only one utilization equipment.*​​​​

*Feeder. *​All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and *the final branch-circuit overcurrent **device.*

 

The conductors from the fused/breakered disconnect to the AC unit are the *Individual Branch-Circuit conductors*. The fuse or breaker in the disconnect is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device and the breaker in the panel is the *feeder* protection.

If a non-fused/breakered disconnect is installed then the breaker in the panel is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

Hope this clears things up for you.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

Kevin​


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

electures said:


> You are incorrect.
> 
> Article 100 Definitions which states;
> 
> ...


Article 210.2 shows you all the other articles that amend Article 210
"Branch Circuits".

Top of the list in Table 210.2 is Air Conditioning Equipment.
Article 440.6 , 440.31 , 440.32. Tell us that the nameplate on the equipment is used to determine the rating or ampacity of the Disc. Means,
the Branch Circuit Conductors, the Controller, the Branch Circuit SS/GF
Protection , and the Seperate Motor Overload Protection.

Article 440.52(A)(3) Protection Agianst Overload, (3) a fuse.

Example: MCA=20a MOP=35a fuse or hacr c.b.

35a c.b. , #14 thwn conductors , fused disconect w/25a fuses for o.l.
protection, #14 thwn conductors to equipment termination block.

EE spec like this every day of the week.


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Benaround said:


> Article 210.2 shows you all the other articles that amend Article 210
> "Branch Circuits".
> 
> Top of the list in Table 210.2 is Air Conditioning Equipment.
> ...


I agree with everything stated about branch circuits. The confusion here is where does the branch circuit begin. If a fused/breakered disconnect is installed then the branch circuit begins @ the disconnect and everything stated above is correct plus the requirements of 440.35. If a non-fused/breakered disconnect is installed, the conductors from the disconnect back to the panel are still *feeders* by definition and the requirements of Article 215 apply including 215.1 and 215.3.

In the example above #14 thwn can be ran from the panel to the fused/breakered disconnect and then to the AC unit. MOP in the disconnect can be 25A, however, the feeder protective device cannot be set higher then 310.16 which is 20A. This installation may lead to nuisance tripping at the feeder protective device. As the inspector I can't require conductors larger than #14 THWN, but I will not except a feeder OC device larger than 20A (which is what the #14 THWN is rated at).

I did find 440.52(A)(1) interesting though. Is it stating that the fuse or ITCB cannot be set higher then 125% even though the nameplate allows higher?

As for EE's, just because they spec it doesn't make it compliant.

Interesting discussion. It's shame there are no other comments.

Kevin


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

bluh....


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

Kevin,

Just so we are on the same page, The fused disco. at the ac unit is not 
part of any manafactures instrutions, right, same page.

The only good code back-up I have is, If you believe that these are feeders, and they feed a (code) structure outside, then a GES must be 
installed at the disco.

Now,IMO. If the purpose of the fused disco is to protect the ac unit, then
the wires on the line side of the disco are branch circuit conductors.

If the purpose of the fused disco is to protect the wires on the load side
of the disco, then the supply conductors are feeders.

I don't agree that the fused disco is installed to protect the line side
conductors to the disco, and I don't agree that the addition of the disco
changes the line side conductors from branch circuit to feeders.

Pizza just showed up, later.


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Benaround said:


> I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit
> 
> OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. *I'll*
> 
> *provide as many code sections as you do*.


What, no code sections? :no:


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

electures said:


> What, no code sections? :no:


For post #108, Article 250.32(A)

I did not think that you would need this one !! 

I guess all the EC's in your area are driving ground rods for their AC disco.

feeders ?


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Benaround said:


> For post #108, Article 250.32(A)
> 
> I did not think that you would need this one !!
> 
> ...


*250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s)
or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode.​*​​​​Building(s) or structure(s) supplied
by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding
electrode or grounding electrode system installed in
accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding
electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance
with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding
electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50​
shall be installed.

Frank,

I think the key word here is building or structure. Neither of which apply here.

Kevin :thumbsup:


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

Kevin,

NEC Definition of Structure:

"That which is built or constructed"

Making a concrete pad, supplying pipes and electrical power is that which

is built and constructed. There is no doubt that an outdoor air conditioner

compressor set-up is a 'structure'. A parking lot pole light is a structure,

the NEC even deleted the requirement for a disconnect on these. The NEC

says what it says' seperate structures supplied by feeders are required

to have a GES'.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Benaround said:


> Kevin,
> 
> NEC Definition of Structure:
> 
> ...


Wow. You've really lost your marbles on that one if you think that an A/C is a seperate structure. Let's not confuse this already confusing topic anymore than it needs to be.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

Hey now, you keep your logic and common sense to yourself.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

idontknow said:


> Hey now, you keep your logic and common sense to yourself.



Yes, I'm sorry. I'll try to remember not to share any commonsense with any others. :laughing:


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

This is not a 'logic or common sense' Forum, it is a NEC Forum, and as We

are required to use NEC defined words when used.

Structure is a NEC defined word: 'That which is built or constucted'.

You can not tell me that an outdoor AC compressor unit was not built or

constructed. Three different trades, concrete, hvac, and electrical, were

required to install this, these are construction trades, it is a structure.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

Benaround said:


> This is not a 'logic or common sense' Forum, it is a NEC Forum, and as We
> 
> are required to use NEC defined words when used.
> 
> ...


So a post light is a separate structure as well then?

Edit: Also, if you replace the concrete pad with a prefored plastic or concrete pad, have the electricians only mount the disconnect and wire their end, then a condenser could be installed by just an hvac contractor


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

idontknow said:


> So a post light is a separate structure as well then?
> 
> Edit: Also, if you replace the concrete pad with a prefored plastic or concrete pad, have the electricians only mount the disconnect and wire their end, then a condenser could be installed by just an hvac contractor


 Yes, a post light is a seperate structure, it is not required to have a GES

because it is on a single branch circuit.

It does not matter 'who' installs 'what' the AC unit has been built or constructed.

The AC unit, like the post light, does not require a GES if it is on a single

branch circuit, But, if you are in the camp that feels by useing a fused

disconnect at the unit that it is being supplied by 'feeders', than you

must also alude to the fact that a GES is required at the disconnect.


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