# Code question regarding 230.70



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I just failed an inspection. I ran a new 200 amp service to a meter can then ran two conductor with G/N SE cable through the crawlspace and up into a panel where my dicso is. My ground rod bond is outside at the meter and my water bond is at the panel. Inspector said that 230.70(a)(1) applies here. I disagree. I am meeting the chief inspector out at the property friday to discuss further...thoughts?


----------



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*crawl*

How did he let you run seu across crawl to main disco? Sounds like over 5ft from rough description. That's sounds like more of a code violation


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

230.70(A)(1) is talking about the location of the service disconnecting means. You're talking about grounding connections. One of you seems mixed up :001_huh:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

erics37 said:


> 230.70(A)(1) is talking about the location of the service disconnecting means. You're talking about grounding connections. One of you seems mixed up :001_huh:


I'm aware of that, perhaps that info was not needed for my point.


----------



## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Generally here once you break the exterior wall and go more than 5' you'd need to have a disco either outside by the meter or with in the 5 or so feet then change to ser (insulated neutral). I say 5 or so because sometimes it's like 6 or 7 to make the panel or disco legal in a basement. Here its a POCO requirement that the inspectors follow. Also here the rods are run to the main service (either panel or disco) but I know some places they run to the meter can.
But this is in Va.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Sparky J said:


> Generally here once you break the exterior wall and go more than 5' you'd need to have a disco either outside by the meter or with in the 5 or so feet then change to ser (insulated neutral). I say 5 or so because sometimes it's like 6 or 7 to make the panel or disco legal in a basement. Here its a POCO requirement that the inspectors follow. Also here the rods are run to the main service (either panel or disco) but I know some places they run to the meter can.
> But this is in Va.


wait, this is a POCO issue or an NEC thing?


----------



## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> wait, this is a POCO issue or an NEC thing?


POCO has nothing to do with it.


*



 
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
means shall be installed at a readily accessible location
either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the

Click to expand...






point of entrance of the service conductors.
​​​​​

Click to expand...



He is getting you on the closest point of entrance.​*​​​​​


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Sounds like you need your disconnect at meter can. As far as I know you can't run unfused feeders inside over 5' unless encased in 3" of concrete.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> I just failed an inspection. I ran a new 200 amp service to a meter can then ran two conductor with G/N SE cable through the crawlspace and up into a panel where my dicso is. My ground rod bond is outside at the meter and my water bond is at the panel. Inspector said that 230.70(a)(1) applies here. I disagree. I am meeting the chief inspector out at the property friday to discuss further...thoughts?


What portion of your installation did he disagree with?


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Shockdoc said:


> Sounds like you need your disconnect at meter can. As far as I know you can't run unfused feeders inside over 5' unless encased in 3" of concrete.


but it hasn't even hit the first point of disconnection yet, besides the meter.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> What portion of your installation did he disagree with?


he wants my meter back to back with the panel/disco


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> he wants my meter back to back with the panel/disco


Not knowing all of the circumstances I can say only that I disagree with him.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Have I explained it that poorly or what?


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Have I explained it that poorly or what?


You quoted an article that he thew at you. You didn't say what he disagreed with. You used the word "bond" a couple of times, instead of ground. Maybe I did misunderstand...sorry, if I did.


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I just failed an inspection. I ran a new 200 amp service to a meter can then ran two conductor with G/N SE cable through the crawlspace and up into a panel where my dicso is. My ground rod bond is outside at the meter and my water bond is at the panel. Inspector said that 230.70(a)(1) applies here. I disagree. I am meeting the chief inspector out at the property friday to discuss further...thoughts?


You ran unfused conductors through the dwelling/location before hitting your disconnecting means. 

A violation of 230.70(A)(1).

You went meter - feeders - disconnect - panel.

It should be meter - disconnect - feeders - panel. 

Your disconnecting means has to be at the closest point of entry, some jurisdictions have a 5' rule. Your SE cable must be terminated as soon as it enters the structure (or within 5' if that rule applies).

If you can't terminate the cable in the space, you need to use a meter with a built in disconnect, or put a disconnect next to the meter.

You can't have the conductors come directly off the meter, travel through the structure and THEN hit a disconnect.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I just failed an inspection. I ran a new 200 amp service to a meter can then ran *two conductor with G/N SE cable *through the crawlspace and up into a panel where my dicso is. My ground rod bond is outside at the meter and my water bond is at the panel. Inspector said that 230.70(a)(1) applies here. I disagree. I am meeting the chief inspector out at the property friday to discuss further...thoughts?


Buzzkill.,

I put a bold part to clear up so I will not get misunderstand this part is this is a plain jane SE cable ?

If so you did snag a voliation of 230.70(a)(1) which the crawl space is more than 5 feet away from meter socket location so you can not have any unfused conductor in there { unless your state did have different length requirement for exposed SE cable } 

If your inspector do required a disconnet means by meter socket you will have to change the SE cable to SER.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> Buzzkill.,
> 
> I put a bold part to clear up so I will not get misunderstand this part is this is a plain jane SE cable ?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure i understand what you mean, that SER cable would be allowed .

230. 70 does not say anything about the type of cable.

I know I'm missing something obvious...:laughing: 


From the 2011 NEC.



> VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means
> 
> 230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all
> conductors in a building or other structure from the serviceentrance
> ...


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Harry.,

I know SER cable is allowed as long it have disconnect right after the meter however what I am try to say is if I did understand his term { buzzkill } wrote say two conductor with N/G SE cable so I just want to understand his words so I don't get misunderstood on that one.

I agree with you about the type of cable it did not say in there.

Pretty soon I will have to order 2011 NEC edition to get myself up the speed with it due I am well versed with ECF { Electrique Codé De France } 

However thanks for posting that.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> Harry.,
> 
> I know SER cable is allowed as long it have disconnect right after the meter however what I am try to say is if I did understand his term { buzzkill } wrote say two conductor with N/G SE cable so I just want to understand his words so I don't get misunderstood on that one.
> 
> ...


Electrique Codé De France.


Just when i thought the NEC was hard enough to read...:laughing:

I think you are taking about the neutral is bonded at the meter socket so you would need at least SER cable at the panel because the panel would not have the disconnect, that would be at the meter.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> Have I explained it that poorly or what?


Yeah, that is why I had been staying out of it.

The service conductors have to hit the service disconnect closest to the point of entrance. That pretty much means you have immediately hit the service disco as soon as you penetrate the building.

My area allows about 5' or so ... but it is a judgement call by the inspector.

That said, if you put the service disco outside, say with a meter main combination you could run the feeder to the panel inside as far as you want.


The basic idea is to keep the unfused service conductors outside the home as much as possible.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

thegoldenboy said:


> You went meter - feeders - disconnect - panel.


Actually he has no feeder, he has
_
Utility > Service Conductors > Meter > Service Conductors > penetrate building > Service conductors > Service disconnect > Branch circuits_

He may have to change it to


_Utility > Service Conductors > Meter > Service disconnect > Feeder > penetrate building > Feeder > Panel > Branch circuits_


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Thank you gentlemen! Code references please?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> Thank you gentlemen! Code references please?


:confused1: 230.70 A 1


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> Thank you gentlemen! Code references please?


Ahh....... 



> VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means
> 
> 230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all
> conductors in a building or other structure from the service entrance
> ...







> 230.70(A)(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure *or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.*


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Hmm, well, okay then, you don't have to shout! I still think it's BS...my only argument here is going to be I was upgrading a previous service from a 100amp to a 200amp and the nearest point of entrance that was accessible was where the previous panel was, in the hallway.


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

:bangin: Let us know how it works out with the chief inspector.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> :bangin: Let us know how it works out with the chief inspector.


yeah I will, you're welcome.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Ahh.......


Holy large text batman, taking a page from Chicken Steve's old book huh? :laughing:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

okay, dumb question: when did 230.70(a)(1) come into precedence?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> okay, dumb question: when did 230.70(a)(1) come into precedence?


A very long time, maybe Ken will nail it down but I think it goes back before Ken was even born.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> A very long time, maybe Ken will nail it down but I think it goes back before Ken was even born.


then how come there are houses all around here designed like the one I just finished? Service hits meter, service conductors go through crawlspace and then terminate inside at the panel?


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Installed and inspected by people who don't know the NEC?? :whistling2:


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Buzz, it wouldn't kill you to start using meter main disco combos. They're really easy to install and you can have the disconnect right there at the meter location.

They make them with _and without_ load centers. 

Then you can run your seu feeder wherever the hell you want.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Buzz, it wouldn't kill you to start using meter main disco combos. They're really easy to install and you can have the disconnect right there at the meter location.
> 
> They make them with _and without_ load centers.
> 
> Then you can run your seu feeder wherever the hell you want.


yeah I know this, but the HO is on a budget..I got an idea to by-pass the county inspection anyway, heh heh heh.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Hmm, well, okay then, you don't have to shout! I still think it's BS...my only argument here is going to be I was upgrading a previous service from a 100amp to a 200amp and the nearest point of entrance that was accessible was where the previous panel was, in the hallway.


Around here, we can grandfather in on a direct replacenent, and even on an upgrade. I've replaced 100 amp#ervice panel and meter with 200 amp meter and service panel, 30 ft deep into a house, and not add a disconnect. It's all in what they'll grandfather in.


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Around here, we can grandfather in on a direct replacenent, and even on an upgrade. I've replaced 100 amp#ervice panel and meter with 200 amp meter and service panel, 30 ft deep into a house, and not add a disconnect. It's all in what they'll grandfather in.


Hell yeah! NOW someone is speaking my language..I'll throw that at the CI friday too; my plan is if he shoots it down, I'll just go with a 150 amp service and the POCO can still use the existing lines from the xfmr and, I won't need an inspection.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Hell yeah! NOW someone is speaking my language..I'll throw that at the CI friday too; my plan is if he shoots it down, I'll just go with a 150 amp service and the POCO can still use the existing lines from the xfmr and, I won't need an inspection.


As long as the meter location stays the same, and the panel location stays the same, they'll grandfather it in. That's how I win a ton of my bids on service upgrades in the city of richmond. My competition bids it for a service disconnect and ser, I bid for no disco and se, win every time.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> As long as the meter location stays the same, and the panel location stays the same, they'll grandfather it in. That's how I win a ton of my bids on service upgrades in the city of richmond. My competition bids it for a service disconnect and ser, I bid for no disco and se, win every time.


I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack.:laughing:


----------



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack.:laughing:


dude, we're licensed though, big difference. :laughing:


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack.:laughing:


It's all in what I can sell. Sometimes I need to keep the job as cheap as possible. It all depends. As long as it passes inspection...


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> A very long time, maybe Ken will nail it down but I think it goes back before Ken was even born.


The 1800's? :blink:


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack.:laughing:


Maybe BWE was right after all. :whistling2:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It's all in what I can sell. Sometimes I need to keep the job as cheap as possible. It all depends. As long as it passes inspection...


Honestly .............. same here.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Honestly .............. same here.


I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack. :laughing:


----------



## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Actually he has no feeder, he has
> _
> Utility > Service Conductors > Meter > Service Conductors > penetrate building > Service conductors > Service disconnect > Branch circuits_
> 
> ...


I knew someone would gig me on that, I'm happy it was you Bob. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I had no idea you were a trunk slamming hack. :laughing:


Liar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------

