# Can You Bend A 3 Point Saddle?



## leftyguitarjoe

Alot of electricians go through out their career 
and never learn how to do this bend.

The thing is, ITS NOT HARD!!!!!
I'VE BEEN BENDING PIPE FOR 3 DAYS and i can do it.

for those who might not know:

1. mark the pipe where the center of the bend will be (directly above the obstacle)

2. Measure the height of the obstacle. Multiply the height by 2 1/2 and make a mark that distance from the center mark.

3. ADD 3/16 OF AN INCH FOR EVERY INCH HIGH THE OBSTACLE IS

4. Make the center bend at a 45 degree angle. (does not have to be 45, some prefer 60, some prefer others)

5. make the other 2 bends 22 1/2 degree bends. you gotta do these in the air.

6. Place the new 3 point saddle above your work and adjust if necessary





So thats it. I've memorized it:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican

Thanks for refreshing this one i havent done that way for quite a while.,

normally i go by sight and feeling when i shape the pipe with out mesuring and 80 % of my time i hit the target the rest just say this >> or :whistling2: one of the two depending on the mood you are in ..


Merci , Marc


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## MDShunk

You mean you don't just bend a bubble in the middle of a full stick, then just cut off both ends until the bubble is over the obstacle? :jester:


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## MDShunk

Thanks for these bending tip posts. I especially liked Tab's rolling offset tip the other day. Maybe Joe or one of the other pipe wizards will post a tip for "kicks". That's another puzzle that troubles people.


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## raider1

> Alot of electricians go through out their career
> and never learn how to do this bend.


Pipe bending is a dying art. With the increasing use of MC cable there is not as much call for good pipe benders. :icon_cry: 

Not to brag but, I have always prided myself on my pipe bending.

I teach pipe bending in my apprentice classes, but the students don't get much pratice in the real world anymore.

Chris:rockon:


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## JohnJ0906

I admit, this is a big hole in my experience. Coming up on 17 yrs in the trade, and I have done very little pipe bending. I have done mostly residential, but even on the commercial jobs, the boss will get someone with more experience than me to do it.


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## MDShunk

It really only takes one reasonably sized pipe job to learn everything you need to know. Now, on a Rob-Roy job... I want the guy that knows and not the guy who's learning, to bend the pipe.


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## faber307

3 point saddle (emt)

measure center point of saddle and mark

measure and mark both directions away from center

pipe in air, emt bender
first mark, closest to end of conduit lay on center mark of bender, bend to 22.5
second mark middlle, lay on star of hand bender and bend to 45
last mark, lay on arrow and bend to 22.5

Your center will always turn out correct. 
I usually have a minor straightening adjustment at the end.

Try it guys, it works great.


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## MDShunk

Tab Faber said:


> I usually have a minor straightening adjustment at the end..


Yeah! Maybe the question should have been, "Can you bend a 3 or 4 point saddle with no dog-leg?" :laughing:


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## faber307

No, I mean the saddle seems to come out a bit "open" for some reason


But I do churn out the occasional dog leg


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## MDShunk

Tab Faber said:


> But I do churn out the occasional dog leg


Me too, but mostly due to impatience. Bigger (read-more expensive) pipe, I'll take my time to do it right. The 'no dog' offset level pretty much cures that if I'm not too lazy to walk to the truck to get it.


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## faber307

the faithful "no dog" works great on a chicago.
tricky for a hand bender


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## jbfan

There should have been a 3rd option, sometimes. I gone back and looked at some I thought looked ok when I put them in, but later wondered who installed that junk?


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## leftyguitarjoe

Tab Faber said:


> No, I mean the saddle seems to come out a bit "open" for some reason
> 
> 
> But I do churn out the occasional dog leg



when you say "open", do you mean alot of space on either side of the object?
if thats the case, use a 60 for your first bend and 30 for the others.


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## faber307

No, I mean when you lay it on the floor, one end is elevated, not flush


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## MDShunk

Tab Faber said:


> No, I mean when you lay it on the floor, one end is elevated, not flush


Yeah, with a hand bender, that's almost guaranteed to some degree, I don't care who you are. With a sidewinder or Chicago, not so much.


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## rod213

We were working in a coal mine load out facility that was expanding their belt system last fall. We had to run about three runs of 3/4" rigid conduit down the side of this beltline for about 200-300 yards. The first thing the maintenance electrician wanted us to was bend four point saddles on all three pieces and start there. Talk about a rough start! I hadn't bent a whole lot of saddles to begin with.


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## Joe Momma

A tip for kicks;
The cosecant rules still apply, but you need a new mark on your bender.
Because a kick like an offset is the difference between similar edges of the pipe.
Your bender has a mark(notch) for center of a 45. And most people that can do 3 point saddles already have marks on their bender for the center of 30's (the point of the letter 'A' in the word back)and center of 20's(for doing those infamous 1" saddles).
Well to apply the rules to kicks you need to find the back of the pipe after the bend for different degrees. It's tough to explain and I'm still working on the exact amount to add for different common degree kicks. 
But I will say, when figured out all your shrink and exact degrees can be figured in for a precise kick which I've always thought is toughest thing to figure(until I see the old guys do it)
The key thing is to remember the bottom of your pipe has to measure to the back of your bend(duh)
I've been working with 2" rigid this past week, so this lesson has rang true because 'fudging' it in is not an option.

And Tab gave a very good tip, I'll often use his tip of measuring one way then the other, then using a square piece of cardboard or something else square, mark it out then measure between.
Or else just use pythagorean's theorum (a2+b2=c2)


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## Joe Momma

The trick is to straighten your dog before you make that third bend, you can't straighten once there're more than 2 bends.

Why do you use the star Tab? the notch is center for a 45.

And I have no idea why anyone would ever put 60 in a pipe. That makes 120 degrees just for one simple maneuver. I seriously try to avoid a 45 at the center except that the cosecant for a 22 is so easy.

Lefty, when you start pulling what you bend, you'll re-think how you do things and will soon avoid 60/30 saddles all together. In fact I don't think I've ever needed to do such a 'steep' saddle, and I know I never have done a 60 at the center.

I learned to do saddles from my ugly's while I was doing that parking structure. It's too bad back then when I needed a 1" saddle it came out 4 inches high because Ugly's only teaches to use a 45/22


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## leftyguitarjoe

wheres that rolling offset thing?
It would be fun to walk into class and just pull one off and impress the all:thumbup:


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## buck

I've been shown both methods mentioned previously: 1) Just simply measure the diagonal measurement between the two points, make the offset and "roll" the pipe until it fits good or 2)Find a good solid right angle at the jobsite such as an undamaged corner of drywall and mark your horizontal measurement on one side, and do the same on the other side for your vertical measurement. Then just measure the distance between the two points (hypotenuse). Both work great!:thumbsup:


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## faber307

You know Joe, I never questioned the method.
But I use three different marks on the pipe and 3 different marks on the bender. somthing to do with not having to calculate for shrink when you put the first pipe mark on the last bender mark, and so on.


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## faber307

Tab Faber said:


> 3 point saddle (emt)
> 
> measure center point of saddle and mark
> 
> measure and mark both directions away from center
> 
> pipe in air, emt bender
> first mark, closest to end of conduit lay on center mark of bender, bend to 22.5
> second mark middlle, lay on star of hand bender and bend to 45
> last mark, lay on arrow and bend to 22.5
> 
> Your center will always turn out correct.
> I usually have a minor straightening adjustment at the end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try it guys, it works great.


I typed that wrong
1st mark on pipe on last mark of bender
2nd mark on pipe center mark on bender
3rd mark on pipe arrow mark on bender


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## sundogusa

Visited a job the other day. Apprentice was struggling with pipe. Grabbed the bender, showed him the bend. He asked how did you do that? I couldn't explain! Said I've been doing this longer than you've been alive! So now I'm looking for some good pipe bending explanations/videos, etc.
Any ideas? Thanks!


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## JohnJ0906

I have the Jack Benfield video, and I thought it was good. Also his bending manual.


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## Joe Momma

Lefty, I don't think your picturing it.
Make a regular ordinary offset, but instead of installing it on a vertical or horizontal plane, you "roll" the pipe or twist it a bit so the offset is not plumb or level.

Think of it as the hypotenuse of a right triangle.

There's really nothing fancy about it or even pretty, but neccessary to change 'x' and 'y' planes both with one offset.


Woops, it seems this site is screwing up again, sorry my post doesn't look like a response to anything. It seems my response was to #20


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## lewis hinkle

The best way to bend and it does all of the math in the field is 
Master Bender from www.arkansoft.com
Enter height and angle and it gives you all of the bending marks


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## sparkysteve

The notch is for 45 centers. The star is for backbending 90's.


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## bobelectric

leftyguitarjoe said:


> Alot of electricians go through out their career
> and never learn how to do this bend.
> 
> The thing is, ITS NOT HARD!!!!!
> I'VE BEEN BENDING PIPE FOR 3 DAYS and i can do it.
> 
> for those who might not know:
> 
> 1. mark the pipe where the center of the bend will be (directly above the obstacle)
> 
> 2. Measure the height of the obstacle. Multiply the height by 2 1/2 and make a mark that distance from the center mark.
> 
> 3. ADD 3/16 OF AN INCH FOR EVERY INCH HIGH THE OBSTACLE IS
> 
> 4. Make the center bend at a 45 degree angle. (does not have to be 45, some prefer 60, some prefer others)
> 
> 5. make the other 2 bends 22 1/2 degree bends. you gotta do these in the air.
> 
> 6. Place the new 3 point saddle above your work and adjust if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So thats it. I've memorized it:thumbsup:


I still have my Jack Benfield book handy.


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## wayni

Lefty - You got it down. That'll come in handy when you are running threaded IMC and RMC. If all you are doing is EMT, especially smaller stuff, just remember that your hacksaw (or portaband) can be your best friend.  Watch your JW close, they will teach you cool, timesaving tricks.


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## lewis hinkle

*Pipe Bending Software and Electricians Calculators*

Bending pipe is easy if one does it much so I keep a software package
to help me on my Palm handheld in the field. Does all of the math for you and its compensated for shrink!
3 pt-4 pt saddles, offsets, 90s, segment, concentric, parallel and more.
Also includes electrical calculators-voltage drop, ampcapacity, conduit fill,
grounding, boxfill, code references and code questions for PCs, Palm and Pocket PCs. 
For a 3pt one puts in angle at top, distance to center of obstruction and height of obstruction then you get new bending marks!
See www.arkansoft.com under Lectricalc and Master Bender
This is the best I have seen on the market. Every electrician should have this!!!! for speed, efficiency and no waste of material.


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## lwood

*3 point*

I normally don't even mesure out the bends unless i'm doing a really big saddle. Usually when bending a 3 point it is over a 3/4 pipe. Mark the center. bend that at 25 to 30 degrees. for the second bend use your index and middle finger. turn your hand sideways and line up the edge of your index with the line for your middle (first) bend and place the front of your bender against your middle. make this ruffly 10 degrees. Repeat for the last bend. If 1" pipe use 4 fingers. Any bigger then that and I will start to take measurements.


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## Bkessler

Don't you move your centermark 3/16 for every inch of obstuction? Thats the way I do it, And like Md says one good bending job and you got it. Ive done notheing but bend 1/2" n 3/4" and 1" for a year straight on 4 occasions. My trick is using decimals instead of fractions you know .125 + .25+ .375 + .5+ .625 = 1 5/8" I can add and subtract faster. bk


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## Joe Momma

3/16 is the shrink for 22.5 degree bends, but not a constant in bending saddles.


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## 220/221

I eyeball most saddles and offsets.


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## 480sparky

I measure & mark offsets, but eyeball saddles.


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## Bkessler

Oh, Well thats mostly what I do unless it less than 4"s or so than it's eyeballin.


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## Joe Momma

I had a first year ask me once why when he does all the math right it still comes out a half inch to 2 inches off. I told him "it's just EMT" to try and pass him off.
But then explained that all his math and calculations only work in a controlled environment. Fact is when using a hand bender it's all just eyeballing


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## leftyguitarjoe

woah, this thread has grown since I last checked up on it. I spent a few weeks running 1 inch an 1 1/2 at astra zentica. Makes everything I thought was impressive look wimpy. Now I'm focusing more on the technocal sides of things an I'm applying to colleges in hopes of obtaining an electrical engineering degree:thumbsup:


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## Jon Thunda

Bending pipe is no problem.... wiremold on the otherhand...


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## 00Funk

I use to bend them all the time in the 80's 1 1/4" Without a tape measurer :no: Seriously I did. And know they wernt barking


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## MDShunk

00Funk said:


> I use to bend them all the time in the 80's 1 1/4" Without a tape measurer :no: Seriously I did. And know they wernt barking


I just barely have enough backside to bend 1-1/4 by hand. I look like I'm riding a drunken pogo-stick.


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## brian john

I did a 100 apartment complex all EMT seperate feeders to each unit all 1-1/4" I was the only one with enough back side 3 months worth.


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## Mountain Electrician

I can barely lug the bender around. The bends aren't uniform either. If I fall of the bender whilst I'm bending, it seems to affect the quality of workmanship.:whistling2:


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## vdelung

*3 point UPGRADE*



Tab Faber said:


> 3 point saddle (emt)
> 
> measure center point of saddle and mark
> 
> measure and mark both directions away from center
> 
> pipe in air, emt bender
> first mark, closest to end of conduit lay on center mark of bender, bend to 22.5
> second mark middlle, lay on star of hand bender and bend to 45
> last mark, lay on arrow and bend to 22.5
> 
> Your center will always turn out correct.
> I usually have a minor straightening adjustment at the end.
> 
> Try it guys, it works great.


That’s basically how I bend a 3 point saddle. I bend conduit almost every day and this seems to be the fastest and most consistent way to come up with near perfect saddles every time. The only difference is:

After I laying out the saddle on the conduit in the typical way, keeping the bender pointing in the same direction. (Makes it easer and faster) I bend the first bend on the star mark of the bender, (the mark away from me) (it doesn’t matter which way you turn the pipe) - slide the pipe down to the second mark (the middle of the bend) make this bend on the notch – slide the pipe down to the next mark (the one close to you) bend this on the arrow. – It works and is much easer than turning your pipe to make the different bends.


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## Joe Momma

vdelung said:


> That’s basically how I bend a 3 point saddle. I bend conduit almost every day and this seems to be the fastest and most consistent way to come up with near perfect saddles every time. The only difference is:
> 
> After I laying out the saddle on the conduit in the typical way, keeping the bender pointing in the same direction. (Makes it easer and faster) I bend the first bend on the star mark of the bender, (the mark away from me) (it doesn’t matter which way you turn the pipe) - slide the pipe down to the second mark (the middle of the bend) make this bend on the notch – slide the pipe down to the next mark (the one close to you) bend this on the arrow. – It works and is much easer than turning your pipe to make the different bends.


 
Your use of the bender marks makes no sense to me, but i've never used the marks the way you say they work. Although with your method of the marks and pointing the pipe either way I assume it's always a cut both ends of the pipe situation?


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## Joe Momma

Hey Brian John;
just noticed your avatar (haven't been on in a while), and it reminded me of a pic I got today in an email (the virginia plate)


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## faber307

I think vdelung bends the saddles the same, just that he lays the pipe on the ground to bend them. I bend them in the air.
The method does not require the ends to be cut off. 
You measure center, bend on the center notch, she comes out at the right length.


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## vdelung

Joe Momma said:


> Your use of the bender marks makes no sense to me, but i've never used the marks the way you say they work. Although with your method of the marks and pointing the pipe either way I assume it's always a cut both ends of the pipe situation?


 
No, it's never a cut - center is center, no matter which way you point the pipe. -- it's always easer to point the short end of the pipe away from you. I came up this one day when I had a rack of about 20 pipes that had to cross one little 3/4 pipe. the center was close to the end of the pipe ( dont remember what it was, something like 15 inches) -- try turning the short end tward you on that, it's almost inpossable to do, after a few trial and error bends, i found this system works...... try it. --


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## Tiger

I don't measure unless I'm doing something like a 1'-4' offset. Easy enough with 1/2" emt, but IMC over 3/4" becomes a comedy routine with a scheduled hot tub after.

Dave


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## gampa

A little trick on emt is put a connector or coupling on your pipe first the screw gives you the center line


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## nap

> vdelung said:
> 
> 
> 
> I came up this one day when I had a rack of about 20 pipes that had to cross one little 3/4 pipe. quote]
> 
> 
> 
> this is where all you need is one 4 bend saddle on only one pipe... the 3/4 you are thinking about bending all those 20 other pipes around.
Click to expand...


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## nap

gampa said:


> A little trick on emt is put a connector or coupling on your pipe first the screw gives you the center line


very good tip g-pa


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## faber307

Unistrut came to mind thinking of 20 saddles!


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## Joe Momma

Your right Vdelung about center being center, wasn't thinking clearly last night.
Nice to have a trick when make a full rack all the same, but if it were just one or two I found a trick for making small bends on short ends(like the 15 incher mentioned)

I'll slide the handle of another bender over the short end and bend in the air. Gives the needed leverage and won't oval the pipe so long as the stub length is within reason (perhaps 6 or 8 inches, never found the limit)


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## idoelectric

leftyguitarjoe said:


> Alot of electricians go through out their career
> and never learn how to do this bend.
> 
> The thing is, ITS NOT HARD!!!!!
> I'VE BEEN BENDING PIPE FOR 3 DAYS and i can do it.
> 
> for those who might not know:
> 
> 1. mark the pipe where the center of the bend will be (directly above the obstacle)
> 
> 2. Measure the height of the obstacle. Multiply the height by 2 1/2 and make a mark that distance from the center mark.
> 
> 3. ADD 3/16 OF AN INCH FOR EVERY INCH HIGH THE OBSTACLE IS
> 
> 4. Make the center bend at a 45 degree angle. (does not have to be 45, some prefer 60, some prefer others)
> 
> 5. make the other 2 bends 22 1/2 degree bends. you gotta do these in the air.
> 
> 6. Place the new 3 point saddle above your work and adjust if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So thats it. I've memorized it:thumbsup:


 

Wow, bending pipe for three days and already he knows it all. The shrinkage for the 45 degree angle is 3/8 for every inch not 3/16. Also, you have to add shrinkage for 22 1/2 bends which is 3/16 per inch. You didn't mention your multiplier between bend marks. You want to bend like a pro you would bend your first 22 1/2 first , flip it over and bend the 45 and bring it down and over for the last 22 1/12 Done properly there's no need for adjustments. 

If there's an electrician that doesn't know how to bend saddles (which I doubt) doesn't mean he's not a qualified and skilled electrician. I'm wondering how you know that there's alot of electricians who doesn't know how to bend saddles? Someone must have told you of course.

I't's good that your learning, try being a little more humble.

Practice bending offsets, 3 and 4 point saddles, parallel offsets with scrap pipe. Remember, pipe bending is an art in itself. The biggest factor in a nice professional pipe run is "simplicity". Bends only when needed and always keep in mind about pulling wire through it. In my experience with conduit bends, I have used 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 degree bends as well as 30, and seldom 45 you will learn from others with more experience and you will get better.


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## HighWirey

MDShunk said:


> Me too, but mostly due to impatience. Bigger (read-more expensive) pipe, I'll take my time to do it right. The 'no dog' offset level pretty much cures that if I'm not too lazy to walk to the truck to get it.


Marc,

I'll bet if you are doing a RobRoy job, you will expend the extra walking energy! Then if you can just tread it without a mess.

I thought I was good at pipe, but I usually copped out buy using strut.

Best Wishes Everyone


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## gampa

When working with robroy I clean the end up with a minigrinder before threading and when bending I use a larger shoe and put a couple of rags oround the pipe It seems to help a bit Hint : Always have can of liquid plastic handy and when the job is complete (each stick) put it on all the marks that way you don't have to go back on your work and do it later and you don't miss any 
I hope I have helped someone today


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## 3phase

If the saddle needs to be very deep (over 3"), Igenerally bend a 4 point. Easier and looks better. I have to saddle bend fairly regular as I do industrial work.

And yep, I've dogged them on occasion. Do like the other poster said, either cuss or say oh well, depending on mood and stress level.


I see several others also keep Benfields book handy. That was my teacher and savior on bending pipe.


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## 76nemo

leftyguitarjoe said:


> Alot of electricians go through out their career
> and never learn how to do this bend.
> 
> The thing is, ITS NOT HARD!!!!!
> I'VE BEEN BENDING PIPE FOR 3 DAYS and i can do it.
> 
> for those who might not know:
> 
> 1. mark the pipe where the center of the bend will be (directly above the obstacle)
> 
> 2. Measure the height of the obstacle. Multiply the height by 2 1/2 and make a mark that distance from the center mark.
> 
> 3. ADD 3/16 OF AN INCH FOR EVERY INCH HIGH THE OBSTACLE IS
> 
> 4. Make the center bend at a 45 degree angle. (does not have to be 45, some prefer 60, some prefer others)
> 
> 5. make the other 2 bends 22 1/2 degree bends. you gotta do these in the air.
> 
> 6. Place the new 3 point saddle above your work and adjust if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So thats it. I've memorized it:thumbsup:


 

I am glad you got it down as you say. Like to take a ride and see what you can run????? Don't get me wrong, I work maintenance, and don't bend alot of pipe. I have seen guys run pipe without a tape. A saddle is not a whole lot to brag about. When you see someone run pipe just by thumbnail marks and can duplicate it, then you have accomplished something. Don't ever say you have pipe work down unless you can back it. I have seen guys run pipe tighter than the virgin Mary. Here I am running tight numbers and these guys are banging off super tight pipe work without a second thought. YES, it makes me feel little!!!!

Running pipe is not something simple.


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## nap

76nemo said:


> I
> 
> Running pipe is not something simple.


Minor correction, if I may.

Running pipe is simple. Running pipe that looks good and is efficient for pulling wire is not simple.:thumbsup:


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## Frasbee

I'd much rather do a 3 point than a 4 point.


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## Adam12

Like mentioned earlier the star is the back of a 90 deg. The notch or tear drop is what you want to use for the center of a 45 deg. bend. 

I use the "push through" method. If you use the center of bend for the 22's as well you can bend from any end of the conduit you like, and avoid trying to bend from the short end. Bend your 22, push and turn then your 45 push and turn then your 22. This method also works with 4 bend saddles. When you use the center it dooesnt matter where you start from because you will always be on center.

This is the way you would bend large conduit on a electric or hydraullic bender because you normally cant pull the conduit out and turn it around. I use the center of the bend for just about all my offsets,(occasionally the arrow) it will bring the bend up tight to the obstruction and looks neater for offsets or 4 bend saddles.

For the 3 bend saddles you need to use a multiplier of 3 instead of 2 1/2 for this method, everything else remains the same, shrink and layout.
The other thing about this is you have to find the center of the bends and then transfer the marks to your benders and bending shoes.

This is the quickest, neatest method, hands down for bending offsets and 4 point saddles.


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## unionwirewoman

I'm hoping no-one gets too offended by this....but the way I've been taught on new commercial construction...and some remodels is this....A saddle is a fuc# up . They say it means someone did not think about their layout before they started running the pipe . They did say also that at times ( very few ) you would need to use them . I was taught the 6 P's.
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pis#
Poor 
Performance

I know how to do 3 and four point....but around here , most good JW's don't have to use them . It's hard enough to pull wire through a 100' run with just the basic 90's and offsets...once you get into saddles...it's a whole nother ballpark .


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## Adam12

unionwirewoman said:


> I'm hoping no-one gets too offended by this....but the way I've been taught on new commercial construction...and some remodels is this....A saddle is a fuc# up . They say it means someone did not think about their layout before they started running the pipe . They did say also that at times ( very few ) you would need to use them . I was taught the 6 P's.
> Prior
> Planning
> Prevents
> Pis#
> Poor
> Performance
> 
> I know how to do 3 and four point....but around here , most good JW's don't have to use them . It's hard enough to pull wire through a 100' run with just the basic 90's and offsets...once you get into saddles...it's a whole nother ballpark .


Regardless, sometimes you just have to. Its actually 7 p's.
Prior
*Proper*......


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## 76nemo

Regardless, I have seen guys run pipe without even using a tape. Gosh, it makes me feel so small. I have seen guys run pipe like they were born doing it. Some of these guys fit pipe like, well, I can't say that here. When I bend, I am off on hard numbers and these guys are bending sick runs without any thought. I have seen pipe racks that make me shake my head.

God bless you guy/gals. I work maintenance, I don't really like or have much use for construction. I see some of you run pipe and it baffles me.
Hats off to all of you!!!!!!!! Hats off to all you construction guys and gals. You keep the business alive!!!!!!!


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## unionwirewoman

Adam12 said:


> Regardless, sometimes you just have to. Its actually 7 p's.
> Prior
> *Proper*......


Toushay....You can add in as many P's as you want...as long as it gets the job done in a workmanlike and constructive manner . Although I do like the 7 P's better .


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## Adam12

unionwirewoman said:


> Toushay....You can add in as many P's as you want...as long as it gets the job done in a workmanlike and constructive manner . Although I do like the 7 P's better .


I say 7 because on one job the foreman had 8x11 sheets of paper plastered all over the job with this printed on it, except his had 2 typo's, pis (piss) and pour (poor). We fixed all of them with our sharpies. So much for getting the message across.


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## Frasbee

unionwirewoman said:


> I'm hoping no-one gets too offended by this....but the way I've been taught on new commercial construction...and some remodels is this....A saddle is a fuc# up . They say it means someone did not think about their layout before they started running the pipe . They did say also that at times ( very few ) you would need to use them . I was taught the 6 P's.
> Prior
> Planning
> Prevents
> Pis#
> Poor
> Performance
> 
> I know how to do 3 and four point....but around here , most good JW's don't have to use them . It's hard enough to pull wire through a 100' run with just the basic 90's and offsets...once you get into saddles...it's a whole nother ballpark .


That someone you speak of could even be the GC, or it could be foremans that haven't coordinated with each other. I hear pretty often (and it could just be contempt), is many of these GC's and engineers don't know anything about the actual installation of systems, despite their adeptness with the prints.

_Maybe_ for new construction, but you definitely need to know saddles for working your way around existing.

Even then, we had a situation where they were building a new addition to these old apartments. Well wouldn't you know they didn't exactly plan how our pipes would have to work around the duct work and everything got discombobulated. It wasn't a big deal because we just worked things out with the A/C guys whose duct work cut right through our pipe paths. There simply wasn't enough room for them to go any higher, or lower.

On top of that, they weren't even around for us to talk to until our home run 90's were already in place.


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## Mountain Electrician

nap said:


> Minor correction, if I may.
> 
> Running pipe is simple. Running pipe that looks good and is efficient for pulling wire is not simple.:thumbsup:


True, true. Last week I had to install a sub-panel. A little over 80' of 1 1/4" EMT, 30 ckt panel, conduit run 20 feet in the air down a wall. 2 90's, 1 offset and 1 kick. 3 #2's and and 3 #10's. 

Spent a little extra time on the layout, install went great. Total time start to finish was 7 hours for me and a helper. It looks excellent. The 7 P's really pay off. (*Pay* off, there's an eighth P)

My helper is a young apprentice who tries hard but is as green as they come. When we loaded the 1 1/4" hand bender at the shop in the morning, the first thing he asked was "do they make these for 2 1/2" ?"
(He wants to bend some exhaust pipe for his truck.) I just laughed. The first bend we made was a 90, and I purposely laid it out so we were bending up the long end of the pipe. I then stood back and told him to go for it. He weighs about 140 lbs soaking wet and no matter how he tried he wasn't going to budge that pipe. Me and the garage foreman were standing back watching him, laughing our *sses off. It took all 3 of us to finish the bend, though. The next 90 we made, I showed him how to use leverage to his advantage.

After 24 years, I still enjoy running pipe as much as anything else.


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## Frasbee

Mountain Electrician said:


> True, true. Last week I had to install a sub-panel. A little over 80' of 1 1/4" EMT, 30 ckt panel, conduit run 20 feet in the air down a wall. 2 90's, 1 offset and 1 kick. 3 #2's and and 3 #10's.
> 
> Spent a little extra time on the layout, install went great. Total time start to finish was 7 hours for me and a helper. It looks excellent. The 7 P's really pay off. (*Pay* off, there's an eighth P)
> 
> My helper is a young apprentice who tries hard but is as green as they come. When we loaded the 1 1/4" hand bender at the shop in the morning, the first thing he asked was "do they make these for 2 1/2" ?"
> (He wants to bend some exhaust pipe for his truck.) I just laughed. The first bend we made was a 90, and I purposely laid it out so we were bending up the long end of the pipe. I then stood back and told him to go for it. He weighs about 140 lbs soaking wet and no matter how he tried he wasn't going to budge that pipe. Me and the garage foreman were standing back watching him, laughing our *sses off. It took all 3 of us to finish the bend, though. The next 90 we made, I showed him how to use leverage to his advantage.
> 
> After 24 years, I still enjoy running pipe as much as anything else.


I'm probably as light as your apprentice, and I too have had difficulty bendin' the 1 1/4.

On the other hand, I used to have trouble bending 3/4 when I first started. Eventually you just learn how to balance and distribute your weight, like riding a bike.


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## Stan Mason

frenchelectrican said:


> Thanks for refreshing this one i havent done that way for quite a while.,
> 
> normally i go by sight and feeling when i shape the pipe with out mesuring and 80 % of my time i hit the target the rest just say this >> or :whistling2: one of the two depending on the mood you are in ..
> 
> 
> Merci , Marc


I am the same way I guess you learn a feel for the bends and a eye for it I know a lot of guys that can't bend like that they have to measure every thing.


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## unionwirewoman

Frasbee said:


> That someone you speak of could even be the GC, or it could be foremans that haven't coordinated with each other. I hear pretty often (and it could just be contempt), is many of these GC's and engineers don't know anything about the actual installation of systems, despite their adeptness with the prints.
> 
> _Maybe_ for new construction, but you definitely need to know saddles for working your way around existing.
> 
> Even then, we had a situation where they were building a new addition to these old apartments. Well wouldn't you know they didn't exactly plan how our pipes would have to work around the duct work and everything got discombobulated. It wasn't a big deal because we just worked things out with the A/C guys whose duct work cut right through our pipe paths. There simply wasn't enough room for them to go any higher, or lower.
> 
> On top of that, they weren't even around for us to talk to until our home run 90's were already in place.


No ...I'm talking about SOME of the JW's I've worked with . Most of the time , the GC or foreman will hand the JW a set of prints...it's then up to them to figure out how to run it . I've been with some JW's who only take into account the lighting ...then when it comes time to do the receptacles....We have to do a ton of offsets and saddles BECAUSE they didn't take the time to plan everything out . I can understand remodels and add ons...there are times (few and far between ) that we have had to use saddles...but I've been taught to think through it and lay it the best you can . As far as having the plumber or HVAC guy run things where you're supposed to be...that's where mechanical prints come in , and coordinating with your foreman or the other trade . We do it alot here...and as long as you establish a good repoir with them..they're usually willing to work with you .


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## sundogusa

Quote:
Originally Posted by *frenchelectrican*  
_Thanks for refreshing this one i havent done that way for quite a while.,_

_normally i go by sight and feeling when i shape the pipe with out mesuring and 80 % of my time i hit the target the rest just say this >> or :whistling2: one of the two depending on the mood you are in .._


_Merci , Marc_

stanmason said:I am the same way I guess you learn a feel for the bends and a eye for it I know a lot of guys that can't bend like that they have to measure every thing.

-----------


WOW! I'm reading you guys throw away 20' out of 100' of pipe. Gets a bit expensive especially with 2" and up!

Old carpenter taught me a trick that many electricians didn't learn...Measure twice cut once.

Call me what you will but I don't have waste!


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## Stan Mason

sundogusa said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *frenchelectrican*
> _Thanks for refreshing this one i havent done that way for quite a while.,_
> 
> _normally i go by sight and feeling when i shape the pipe with out mesuring and 80 % of my time i hit the target the rest just say this >> or :whistling2: one of the two depending on the mood you are in .._
> 
> 
> _Merci , Marc_
> 
> stanmason said:I am the same way I guess you learn a feel for the bends and a eye for it I know a lot of guys that can't bend like that they have to measure every thing.
> 
> -----------
> 
> 
> WOW! I'm reading you guys throw away 20' out of 100' of pipe. Gets a bit expensive especially with 2" and up!
> 
> Old carpenter taught me a trick that many electricians didn't learn...Measure twice cut once.
> 
> Call me what you will but I don't have waste!


your right but a single run yea, but racking conduits I do measure and keep evetything the same but I know the measure twice cut once rule.


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