# GFI protected fan/light combo



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm installing a GFI and a fan/light combo in a gazebo.
2 questions: Would you potect the fan/light with the GFI?
Cutting through wide open grass, near a pond, how many of you would bury the pvc 12 inches or the required 18 inches?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Ive done several and did not gfi the fans.
I usually go 24 but know 18 is legal. That way no spot is less than 18 and I dont have to dig any places ditch didnt get deep enough.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Ive done several and did not gfi the fans.
> I usually go 24 but know 18 is legal. That way no spot is less than 18 and I dont have to dig any places ditch didnt get deep enough.


I agree, GFI-ing the fan would be nothing maore than an annoyance.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Do you have to use p v c ? Can't you use direct burial cable ?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> I agree, GFI-ing the fan would be nothing maore than an annoyance.


 
You know an outdoor type fan if it is one.... may say to gfi it like some bath fans say to. Might be worth reading the instructions to make sure.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

oldtimer said:


> Do you have to use p v c ? Can't you use direct burial cable ?


I could but I refuse to...I hate UF.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> I could but I refuse to...I hate UF.


not to mention UF has to be at 24", and pvc can be at 18".

~Matt


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> not to mention UF has to be at 24", and pvc can be at 18".
> 
> ~Matt


 
I think if its gfi protected and a 20amp circuit it can be 12". Maybe im thinking of something else I don't have the code book with me.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Read note #4 to Table 300.5. If this is a one or two family dwelling then you may also bury PVC 12" if it is gfci protected.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Read note #4 to Table 300.5. If this is a one or two family dwelling then you may also bury PVC 12" if it is gfci protected.


 
Uf also correct? A single 20 amp circuit gfi protected.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I think if its gfi protected and a 20amp circuit it can be 12". Maybe im thinking of something else I don't have the code book with me.


yeah, you are right about that, as long as its gfci protected before it goes in the trench.

~Matt


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Uf also correct? A single 20 amp circuit gfi protected.


I never said it wasn't. I thought someone was thinking PVC had to be 18".


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Personally, no (unless the fan is requiring it). 

But if I have a customer who requests a single circuit run to a free-standing gazebo and wants the lowest price possible, I'd bury a T300.5 GFI-protected circuit 12" to obtain the price point for the customer.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

GFCI the light and the fan...maybe even AFCI it. The code is the minimum.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> ...maybe even AFCI it. The code is the minimum.



Only if the customer is willing to pay for it.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I never said it wasn't. I thought someone was thinking PVC had to be 18".


 
Hold up now!! I was ASKING you because I didn't have a book handy and you didn't say anything about it. I thought I was correct but with so much to remember and my small mind its easy for me to get things wrong.:whistling2:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> GFCI the light and the fan...maybe even AFCI it. The code is the minimum.


Ok.:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Ok.:laughing:


I'm not sure why the laughing face, but he is cute.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I'm not sure why the laughing face, but he is cute.


 

To be honest it was probably because the minimum is safe and most guys would not include arc fault in their price. Some may gfi the fan by hitting the recep first then the switch with no extra cost. Is it a bad idea to do both. No. Is it necessary for a safe installation? Again no. All in how you see it. Both will pass an inspection and are safe.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> To be honest it was probably because the minimum is safe and most guys would not include arc fault in their price. Some may gfi the fan by hitting the recep first then the switch with no extra cost. Is it a bad idea to do both. No. Is it necessary for a safe installation? Again no. All in how you see it. Both will pass an inspection and are safe.


I can agree with what you said, so there is no argument. However, what is considered to be safe ENOUGH, according to the code is not always safe ENOUGH. Take into consideration the rule about the second ground rod.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I can agree with what you said, so there is no argument. However, what is considered to be safe ENOUGH, according to the code is not always safe ENOUGH. Take into consideration the rule about the second ground rod.


 
Could you explain what you mean about the ground rods and safety? Im a little slow. And for the record I wasn't laughing at you or even with you about the arc and gfi! It would make a safe install just not required and you know most guys wont do it unless they have to.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Could you explain what you mean about the ground rods and safety? Im a little slow. And for the record I wasn't laughing at you or even with you about the arc and gfi! It would make a safe install just not required and you know most guys wont do it unless they have to.


I am not offended and I appreciate the rebuttal from you. That's the way we learn. About the ground rods, if you drive a rod and do not get 25 ohms to ground you must drive another. After that...nothing. It does not make sense to me. If 25 ohms is imperative then it should be achieved. That is my opinion.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> ........ After that...nothing. .........



After two rods, if you haven't got the resistance down to 25 ohms, you probably never will, no matter how many rods you drive.

In short, it's as good as it's gonna get.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I am not offended and I appreciate the rebuttal from you. That's the way we learn. About the ground rods, if you drive a rod and do not get 25 ohms to ground you must drive another. After that...nothing. It does not make sense to me. If 25 ohms is imperative then it should be achieved. That is my opinion.


 

Interesting point. Wording is everything in the nec. Should it say as close to 25 ohms as 2 ground rods will get then? Or should it be 25 ohms?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Interesting point. Wording is everything in the nec. Should it say as close to 25 ohms as 2 ground rods will get then? Or should it be 25 ohms?


As far as I am concerned, it should be 5 ohms or close to it. With all of the damage that lightning causes even if it is not a direct hit, it is a shame that our code just says "give up" searching for a good ground if it's too much trouble.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> .....Should it say as close to 25 ohms as 2 ground rods will get then? ......


How do you change it when you're only driving two rod?



jwjrw said:


> .........Or should it be 25 ohms?


Then two things would happen. You may end up driving hundreds of rods to attain 25 ohms, and you'll have to prove it to the inspector.

You wanna do either one?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> How do you change it when you're only driving two rod?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I dont want to do either. :no: I guess I was saying the way the nec words things sometimes can be a pain.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> .......I guess I was saying the way the nec words things sometimes can be a pain.


Changing it to require 25 ohms would be a nightmare. I can't image what would happen at 5 ohms............


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

The theory behind the 25 ohm threshold is that it should be no different than being out in a cow pasture when lightning strikes...it still gets to where is needs to go. However, when you are talking about a residence, the rules should be stricter.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Changing it to require 25 ohms would be a nightmare. I can't image what would happen at 5 ohms............


 
Our soil is mostly red clay. Like you said you may never get it that low.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> ....... However, when you are talking about a residence, the rules should be stricter.


People who are at work should accept a lower level of protection?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> People who are at work should accept a lower level of protection?


No, Industry has a stricter standard.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Now my plug for a CEE. I did a ground test with one rod and had about 98 ohms. I drove a second and had 89 ohms. On the same job site I had installed a CEE and I had 13 ohms. Screw the rods-- they ain't worth a damn.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> No, Industry has a stricter standard.



Care to point out where?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Care to point out where?


Telecommunications and any system with sensitive equipment and...me personally. Why do you want to fight about this. Again, I'll say...the code is the minimum.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Telecommunications and any system with sensitive equipment and...me personally. Why do you want to fight about this. Again, I'll say...the code is the minimum.



I don't get it.

"Telecommunications and any system with sensitive equipment" protects you somehow from lightning strikes?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> "Telecommunications and any system with sensitive equipment" protects you somehow from lightning strikes?


You know what he is saying. Telecommunication equipments requires extra grounding for lightning strikes


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> "Telecommunications and any system with sensitive equipment" protects you somehow from lightning strikes?


I didn't think that we were on the same page. What I am saying is that the lower the resistance to ground that you have in regards to your surroundings/electrical service, the less damage will occur. Most lightning occurrences are not direct strikes...The better the grounding system the better the chances of minimal damage. A direct strike you will not survive.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You know what he is saying. Telecommunication equipments requires extra grounding for lightning strikes


Is that in the NEC, or somewhere else?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Is that in the NEC, or somewhere else?


 Uhhh-- somewhere else..:laughing:


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I didn't think that we were on the same page. What I am saying is that the lower the resistance to ground that you have in regards to your surroundings/electrical service, the less damage will occur. Most lightning occurrences are not direct strikes...The better the grounding system the better the chances of minimal damage. A direct strike you will not survive.


Sound to me like you are just repeating what you have been told. Maybe you could explain how and why 5 OHMs or less is going to be better then 25 OHMs ? If you wouldn't mind, maybe you could tell us how they NEC came up with 25 OHMs to start with. Then where the teleco industry came up with 5 OHMs. :no:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

acrwc10 said:


> Sound to me like you are just repeating what you have been told. Maybe you could explain how and why 5 OHMs or less is going to be better then 25 OHMs ? If you wouldn't mind, maybe you could tell us how they NEC came up with 25 OHMs to start with. Then where the teleco industry came up with 5 OHMs. :no:


Those sound like some pretty good questions to me. How about RIVETER? :thumbsup:

Personally I would really like to know why is 5 ohms going to be better than 25 ohm or even 100 ohms at a typical dwelling unit?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Those sound like some pretty good questions to me. How about RIVETER? :thumbsup:
> 
> Personally I would really like to know why is 5 ohms going to be better than 25 ohm or even 100 ohms at a typical dwelling unit?



I'm still waiting to look at his research.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Haven't any of you realized that this guy talks out of his arse?....Yeah, lets make it and AFI and GFI when you don;t even have to...Add extra $$$ to a job for no reason...Lets just run everything in Rigid, then we should be good.


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## alpha3236 (May 30, 2010)

*GFI Fan/light combo*

I would not protect the fan/light with the GFCI if you are using a receptacle type GFCI. They can be kinda touchy about motors, although I've not had problems with the breaker type GFCI. Protecting the fan/light is not required by NEC, as it deals with 125V Receptacles in outdoor applications. 
As far as burial depth 12" if the breaker type GFCI is used, otherwise 18", but I prefer 24", so the sprinkler guys & others don't dig it up.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Haven't any of you realized that this guy talks out of his arse?



Which one of us?

Me, 480sparky, acrwc10, Dennis Alwon, jwjrw? :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Which one of us?
> 
> Me, 480sparky, acrwc10, Dennis Alwon, jwjrw? :laughing:


 
I'm a likely candidate for sure....:whistling2::laughing:


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

I've seen bath fans that required gfci if within x distance from shower.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Which one of us?
> 
> Me, 480sparky, acrwc10, Dennis Alwon, jwjrw? :laughing:


riveter....come on now.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Which one of us?
> 
> Me, 480sparky, acrwc10, Dennis Alwon, jwjrw? :laughing:



LGLS, Forgery, JackBoot, MileHiWire, Honda Racer.......


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