# 50 amp gfci protected hot tub on 3 wire system



## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I was reading through several posts here and was reminded of a topic that came up between an inspector friend of mine and myself recently. here is the sceneario.
this 240v hot tub needs to be 50 amp gfci protected,but only has a 3 wire run to it. it has lights and an osmose feature that is 120v but has no neutral (and no way to run 4 wire to it). His alternative was use the ground conductor as the neutral and drive a new grond rod at the hot tub. I suggested possibly setting a subpanel at the hot tub deck,keep the ground and neutral bar connected (not legal i know) and land both. run 4 wire from sub panel to hot tub, and gfci protect from sub panel(not service entraance). I realize none of this is legal... but with regards to the more safe approach i thought my way was safer as far as gfci protection to the tub. 
Any thoughts as to an alternitive given these circumstances?
Thanks,


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

Sorry Guys, this was supposed to go under Residential Heading, Not canadian Elect. forum


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> I was reading through several posts here and was reminded of a topic that came up between an inspector friend of mine and myself recently. here is the sceneario.
> this 240v hot tub needs to be 50 amp gfci protected,but only has a 3 wire run to it. it has lights and an osmose feature that is 120v but has no neutral (and no way to run 4 wire to it). His alternative was use the ground conductor as the neutral and drive a new grond rod at the hot tub. I suggested possibly setting a subpanel at the hot tub deck,keep the ground and neutral bar connected (not legal i know) and land both. run 4 wire from sub panel to hot tub, and gfci protect from sub panel(not service entraance). I realize none of this is legal... but with regards to the more safe approach i thought my way was safer as far as gfci protection to the tub.
> Any thoughts as to an alternitive given these circumstances?
> Thanks,


 
do it right.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

My solution is to run the correct feeder. His solution is not a solution. :no:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

agreed!, according to him they could not feasibly get another wire to it.. (his words not mine). I think it was at his personal home,not sure though


Bulldog1 said:


> My solution is to run the correct feeder. His solution is not a solution. :no:


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

rnr electric said:


> agreed!, according to him they could not feasibly get another wire to it.. (his words not mine). I think it was at his personal home,not sure though



There is always a way if you give me a big enough check. :thumbsup:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

yeah man!!.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Set a 240 to 120/240 transformer and use that to supply a sub-panel.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Was the tub designed for a neutral? I've seen (and hooked up) older tubs that were "born this way". Look at it closely - though intuitively you might think it needs a neutral, it's possible it was designed and listed to run without one.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Was the tub designed for a neutral? I've seen (and hooked up) older tubs that were "born this way". Look at it closely - though intuitively you might think it needs a neutral, it's possible it was designed and listed to run without one.


 

he said it has 120 volt loads.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> he said it has 120 volt loads.


Like I said....was it designed for a neutral? The manufacture might have used some kind of voodoo to cause the neutral current to disappear ( do I look like an electrical engineer?) and therefore was able to get it listed without a neutral. Just sayin' - I've seen it.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Gfic's have been around since the 70's...how/why/would this unit not have 1 in wiring already...the design of the unit would necessitate its incorporation in the wire sequence..(4) wire required...something is 
afu here...


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Like I said....was it designed for a neutral? The manufacture might have used some kind of voodoo to cause the neutral current to disappear ( do I look like an electrical engineer?) and therefore was able to get it listed without a neutral. Just sayin' - I've seen it.


 

No, you saw straight 240 loads.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, you saw straight 240 loads.


That's possible. Lights/ozone were rare back then.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Just a thought..say the first tub there was wired @120volts...simple basic tub..then comes new tub several years later...ham and egger says jezz I can make this a 240 cir...easy swap out breaker pull nuetral land on new dp breaker ta-dah 240....no nuetral with a ground....now you have issues because bozo ham-n-egged oridginal circuit..just a guess as to how this happened...if you do enough resi work you will see all kinda chit..again this is just a guess as to how this happened...


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

i would just have put a small (maybe 350-500va with proper fusing) 240/120v xfmr at the hot tub directly, so you only need 240V to the hot tub


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