# Help Badger price this job ........ Please?



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

OK, it has been a long time since I have done residential work and I have never had to give an estimate.

Now I have to estimate the following job and really don't have a frigging clue.

The home is two floors, has a basement but no access up to the attic space.

The HO understands there will be some damage.

Here is what they want in their words

Outside:

Fix wiring on outdoor light. Wiring is hanging below siding and under kitchen entry
door

Remedy lack of GFI in home:

Wiring has no Equipment grounding conductor. Install GFCI Breakers on all branch
circuits serving receptacles.

*First Floor:*

*Living Room -*
Install 8 High hats – install switches at two doorways one with dimmer . We will be
replacing the ceiling.

*Kitchen – *Install 6 High hats
Replace current Kitchen outlets with three prong receptacles


*Second Floor:*

*Three Bedrooms*

Install four High hats and ceiling fan in each bedroom

Replace one receptacle in each bedroom with three prong receptacle outlet for future use
by AC unit.


So basically 26 new 4" high hats all old work.

Three ceiling fan boxes (No fans yet)

Switches, GFCIs etc.


I will be glad to hear any info, but total hours would be best for me as then I can apply my costs to those hours.

Oh I have to provide all the stuff.

Thanks, Bob


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

How many receptacle circuits need GFI??

Can you cut a hole through interior clothes closet to gain access to attic?

Walls and ceilings drywall or plaster?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> How many receptacle circuits need GFI??


Lets say 5



> Can you cut a hole through interior clothes closet to gain access to attic?


Unknown but also suggested by the guy I sent out to look the job over.

At this point I would like to give a price without attic access and then I could suggest the reducing the price if they get us into the attic.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I come up with (26) hours labor for one man..


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I come up with (26) hours labor for one man..


26 or 126? :blink:

There are 26 old work high hats to install.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

With an attic above high hats go in super quick. Even with no human access to the attic, it's still as easy as sending a snake/stick from one hole over to the next. The first floor high hats will probably be easy as well since most (I believe?) houses in that area have furring strips under the joists which allow you to snake wires in either direction without making holes.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> 26 or 126? :blink:
> 
> There are 26 old work high hats to install.



Eight of those HH are new work in living room..

Even in finished ceilings, 4" holesaw and snaking goes fast


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Eight of those HH are new work in living room..
> 
> Even in finished ceilings, 4" holesaw and snaking goes fast


The ceiling is in place, it is plaster and lathe, the may be replacing it but it is not 'new work'.


Even if it was you think you can do 26 Hi hats, 4 fans, some switches, some receptacles in 26 hours?

If you can I will hire you to do this job. :thumbsup:


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> I come up with (26) hours labor for one man..


Double that Bob IMO (52). Speak with them about 20 amp circuits for the bedroom ACs and add a day for that. This assumes flexible wiring, not emt. If you get the job don't be shy about cutting holes. That will speed the work. Add 4 hours and a good respirator for the lath & plaster. Get your lead cert.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> The ceiling is in place, it is plaster and lathe, the may be replacing it but it is not 'new work'.
> 
> 
> Even if it was you think you can do 26 Hi hats, 4 fans, some switches, some receptacles in 26 hours?
> ...


If they really are replacing the ceilings have them tear the ceilings down so you have access.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Tiger said:


> Double that Bob IMO (52). Speak with them about 20 amp circuits for the bedroom ACs and add a day for that. This assumes flexible wiring, not emt. If you get the job don't be shy about cutting holes. That will speed the work.




Bedroom ac's? :001_huh:
Even our poor here have central air....:yes:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bedroom ac's? :001_huh:
> Even our poor here have central air....:yes:


Ouch!

I have 3 window shakers here at my house. :jester:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Ouch!
> 
> I have 3 window shakers here at my house. :jester:




I assume up north you can make it with a window unit.....here you would need a big one in every room. Humidity is a killer here. No disrespect meant. I still see some here. Hell I have one in the mud room for my bulldog. She stays in there when I'm not home.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> OK, it has been a long time since I have done residential work and I have never had to give an estimate.
> 
> Now I have to estimate the following job and really don't have a frigging clue.
> 
> ...


 



edited above


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I assume up north you can make it with a window unit....


You can when you are a cheap SOB like me.:yes:





> No disrespect meant.


None taken, I thought it was funny. :thumbsup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> You can when you are a cheap SOB like me.:yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So I can add cheap sob to the other things people call you here...:thumbsup::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

You did not say plaster and lath.. my (26) hours is for drywall conditions.. :no:

Change that to (36) hours in case the plaster is wire reinforced


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bedroom ac's? :001_huh:
> Even our poor here have central air....:yes:


It's not about how rich or poor you are, it's about the age of the house and the taste of the people who live in it.

I like it cold and it gets pretty hot in my state so I'll use my AC for 5 months out of the year. Other people in a bit cooler states who don't mind it warm will only use the AC for 2 months out of the year. For them, the cost of retrofitting a half assed central AC system into their older house isn't always worth it.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I am diggin the 40 hour estimate. Plaster and lathe sux. Not haveing done a resi job or not having estimated a resi job? If the man is strictly a commercial/industrial electrician add 10% to time for unfamiliarity. (tell the guy to run the hole saw backards for the plaster and frontards for the wood)


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

I'd say close to 50 man hours. The plaster ceiling would make me a little nervous depending on the vintage, somtimes that stuff is just a disaster.

Remodel cans can be a pain in the arse if the lathes are those old wooden strips.


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## Ima Hack (Aug 31, 2009)

nolabama said:


> (tell the guy to run the hole saw backards for the plaster and frontards for the wood)


Tell him to bring a couple of hole saws too, that old plaster seems to burn the teeth off the saw quickly.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Ima Hack said:


> I'd say close to 50 man hours. The plaster ceiling would make me a little nervous depending on the vintage, somtimes that stuff is just a disaster.
> 
> Remodel cans can be a pain in the arse if the lathes are those old wooden strips.



Yep because the plaster is soo thick the clips on the remodel cans won't always snap in place.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ima Hack said:


> Tell him to bring a couple of hole saws too, that old plaster seems to burn the teeth off the saw quickly.


Or get an adjustable hole cutter with carbide bits. Include that in the cost.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Ima Hack said:


> Tell him to bring a couple of hole saws too, that old plaster seems to burn the teeth off the saw quickly.


I can make one last for the remodel cans if its run backwards slowly. Yes you want to add a hole saw in the estimate. (I do that as a matter of course on resi jobs, mostly big drill bits, or consumables. Last on like that was prunning blades for the saw zall for underground. )


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Yep because the plaster is soo thick the clips on the remodel cans won't always snap in place.


yepper - the wood lathe sucks - and you cant beat the can into place either you gotta be real gentle on these.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Has your man actually evaluated the condition of the ungrounded wiring? That may be something you don't want to touch without a very detailed Ass Covering statement in the contract. 

Is this inspected? If so, will the inspector allow the existing circuits to cover bath and kitchen GFI's, or will they require a dedicated bath circuit and two dedicated small appliance circuits for the kitchen?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Has your man actually evaluated the condition of the ungrounded wiring?


Yeah he did and it is all NM with ground but the grounding conductors were not brought into the boxes, they were back-wrapped on the NM and squeezed on buy the metal clamp in the boxes. That was a very common practice around here back in the day.



> Is this inspected?


Yes.




> If so, will the inspector allow the existing circuits to cover bath and kitchen GFI's,


They have to. 



> or will they require a dedicated bath circuit and two dedicated small appliance circuits for the kitchen?


They cannot.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

If they want ac units, it seems to me that you should try to homerun ckts to those locations.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah he did and it is all NM with ground but the grounding conductors were not brought into the boxes, they were back-wrapped on the NM and squeezed on buy the metal clamp in the boxes. That was a very common practice around here back in the day.


Sounds fantastic then. I have heard of this practice, but never witnessed it. Jacklegs down here just cut the ground off:laughing: Assuming that the locknut is nice and snug, how good of a connection do you think the EGC has to the clamp? What I'm thinking is that since there is a ground, that maybe you could use GFCI breakers for safety, and use self-grounding receptacles or bonding jumpers to the boxes just to give a "real" ground at those devices...

The real fun is stuffing a GFI receptacle into an ancient under-sized box.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I say that's 2 guys at least 40-50 hrs.... Cutting those cans in plaster is a biatch....


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I wouldn't bid that unless I bid it high. T&M that thing. Remodel is a PIA. If you do bid it I would figure out what you "think" the labor will be on the job then double that estimate.

With lathe and plaster I'd make sure the customer understands that there may be some damage or a lot that they will have to repair.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm surprised you're not adding any lighting circuits for the rooms getting recessed lights.

I would not do the job tapping off existing circuits.. house must be (60) years old with the metal boxes and #16 ground wrapped around plate screw.

Running new circuits is a no brainer and would not add much cost to the job.. you have to find a feed anyway.. 

Most of the time you can drop a masons cord with a 1/4 oz. weight down the vent stack to get into the basement.

I like using string because you can "feel" it going down the chase.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I'd say the good part of a week for one man if he is familiar with the construction techniques and working with plaster/lathe ceilings. metal lathe is worse for cuts but usually holds the plaster much better so less surface damage IMO, just need tin snips to finish the hole.

I do this stuff a good amount, but it IS blood money.LOL

5-6K if You can get it.

You may be able to unwrap the equipment ground and add a box pigtail in lieu of GFCI breakers.

Tom


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

davis9 said:


> You may be able to unwrap the equipment ground and add a box pigtail in lieu of GFCI breakers.


That was the suggestion my guy made, he says he thinks he can get enough inside to use a crimp connector on them.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That was the suggestion my guy made, he says he thinks he can get enough inside to use a crimp connector on them.


good luck with that. I'd like to hear how that works out.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> good luck with that. I'd like to hear how that works out.


He tells me he was able to do that on a side job he had.

Sounds like a PITA to me.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I guess if the boxes all have internal clamps it might be in the realm of possibility. I just remember giving that a try one time and it being a never ending journey. (understand, tho, I'd rather make a hole and fish a wire than chase down 50 boxes of old crappy wiring)


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> I guess if the boxes all have internal clamps


They do from what he told me.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob, everyone here who has the fein multimaster talked big pimp about it, so I bought a Harbor Freight knock-off of the Fein just to investigate the hype... and you absolutely should have one of those cheap harbor freight crap-oh's and a slew of extra blades with you, because they are effin-AWESOME! 

I used a rotozip for plaster in the past, even with plastic drop sheets and the shopvac nozzle sucked up to the bit, its super messy. Bob, I don't want you wheezing from silicosis.

About the ceiling... I suspect they will do some demo, patch, and cover the existing swiss cheese with 1/4" rock to make it look smooth.

Finally Bob, make sure theres no copper hydronic lines embedded in the plaster lid, that sh1t will piss black water for days.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

and if the inspector asks about asbestos, just tell em "we're doing as best as we can"


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Price*

Outside:

Fix wiring on outdoor light. Wiring is hanging below siding and under kitchen entry
door $ 60

Remedy lack of GFI in home: $75 per GFCI Breaker on circuit x 5 = $ 375

Wiring has no Equipment grounding conductor. Install GFCI Breakers on all branch
circuits serving receptacles.

First Floor:

Living Room -
Install 8 High hats – install switches at two doorways one with dimmer . We will be
replacing the ceiling. $ 900

Kitchen – Install 6 High hats
Replace current Kitchen outlets with three prong receptacles $ 700 


Second Floor:

Three Bedrooms

Install four High hats and ceiling fan in each bedroom $ 1,200 

Replace one receptacle in each bedroom with three prong receptacle outlet for future use
by AC unit. $ 500


Total $ 3,735.00 x 1.5 (old work factor) = 5,600 ish


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Outside:
> 
> Fix wiring on outdoor light. Wiring is hanging below siding and under kitchen entry
> door
> ...


$ 6585 assuming 5 gfi breakers based on a post on the internets of course. I would say 56 hours includeing NON billable. (work should be completed by 2 guys in less then 3 days)


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Price*

Yup. 6,000 ish sounds about right. 

Either way Bob. It doesn't matter because someone on craigslist that needs cigarettes and beer will do it all for about 2,000-3,000


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> The ceiling is in place, it is plaster and lathe, the may be replacing it but it is not 'new work'.
> 
> 
> Even if it was you think you can do 26 Hi hats, 4 fans, some switches, some receptacles in 26 hours?
> ...


 Plaster and Lath work is my specialty......especially old work high hats...Just call me Ill do it for you for a piece of the action...


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> $ 6585 assuming 5 gfi breakers based on a post on the internets of course. I would say 56 hours includeing NON billable. (work should be completed by 2 guys in less then 3 days)


The condition of the Plaster / lath could raise that by as much as %20 if its loose and falling down. I cut with a rotozip tile blade and shopvac. bewteen HH I use a 4inch circ and cut a 2" wide channel across the ceiling joist. I will also pull up floor or remove baseboard if it reduces the amount of demo that has to be done. 

Buy an assload of plastic duct tape and Quality dustmask.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

captkirk said:


> Plaster and Lath work is my specialty......especially old work high hats...Just call me Ill do it for you for a piece of the action...



If I could give this work away I would.:thumbsup:

This is a favor job.


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## e57 (Jun 5, 2009)

This is the type of thing I would shoot for T&M on because of the many variables of getting down walls, they're replacing one lid - but it may make more sense to do all of the ones they have the scope in.

Otherwise - open an excel sheet, sit back and close your eyes and imagine doing each task - assign a time, and the material cost to it, then throw in that there will be some unknowns, head scratching, and other coordination. - It's you doing it? Not Mr 'Hop and Bop' - or 'Git er done'....


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## bruce6670 (Apr 27, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> This is a favor job.


That's the worst kind of job.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> If I could give this work away I would.:thumbsup:
> 
> This is a favor job.


uh oh, danger will robinson !

tell em not to exceed $15,000.00

make it happen for 10, make em happy. include patching the plaster but not painting.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

wildleg said:


> uh oh, danger will robinson !



Exactly my thought.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I'd just tell them there are to many variables for you to bid it and give them a not to exceed number like 15K. Then they won't have you do a bunch of extra stuff and you'll get out of there without losing money.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I'd just tell them there are to many variables for you to bid it and give them a not to exceed number like 15K.


I can't try to scare them off, I have to find a number that is legit.

I still may go the NTE route but I have to provide a realistic number.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Maybe you could put this out for bid to a residential company? Tack on 10% for the customer and just general it.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Maybe you could put this out for bid to a residential company? Tack on 10% for the customer and just general it.



It has crossed my mind.

The new lead laws may prevent me from doing it anyway.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Price*

If they're "friends" you might want to do a TnM and not too exceed. I've done this with "friends" as well. 

Most likely they would get it done and save more and you could set a not to exceed to cya in case. I'd go like 8k

Flat rates are basically like insurance anyhow. You win most but you lose some.

Ask them to imagine being a doctor and you walked in and said my stomach hurts. How much to fix it? Insist they give you a fixed price. Just to get a point over to them. People understand that one. 

Good luck


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I get 250 and up for a can in plaster and lath....When you do enough old work in old homes there is no need to do it T and M . If I told a customer "well its tough to say how much...lets just say 10g's not to go over 15" they would honestly look at me like I was full of crap and didnt know my job.. People want a number not someone that isnt sure of what he is doing. This isnt directed towards you Bob....just the crowd.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> This is a favor job.


You didn't respond to post #32.. since this is a favor job, even more important to run new circuits.

All the customer will know is they plug in the vacuum cleaner with the lights on and it blows the circuit.

I have always gone by this.. "new work goes on new circuits" and it has never caused me any grief.

Stealing a feed for an outdoor GFI is one thing.. running HH off existing wiring will cause you more problems in the long run... IMO


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> You didn't respond to post #32.. since this is a favor job, even more important to run new circuits.
> 
> All the customer will know is they plug in the vacuum cleaner with the lights on and it blows the circuit.
> 
> ...


I agree....95 percent of the time I do the same thing....Old homes are usually riddled with problems of tripping circuits, bath gfcis on with garage and attic, and so on. Its best to avoid old circuits all together.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> You didn't respond to post #32.. since this is a favor job, even more important to run new circuits.
> 
> All the customer will know is they plug in the vacuum cleaner with the lights on and it blows the circuit.
> 
> ...


I am not up selling a damn thing.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I am not up selling a damn thing.


I don't know what you mean by that? :blink:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I'm surprised you're not adding any lighting circuits for the rooms getting recessed lights.


Who said we wouldn't?

Whatever they get will comply with the NEC so if a new circuit is needed of course new circuits would be added.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I am not up selling a damn thing.


 I dont blame you at all, I have been up to my nose in old work resi for the last three years and I swear I have aged 10 years because of it....I am sooo tired of it all. I really need a good stready stream of commerc or industrial to get my sanity back.....


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

that's right, and up goes the price.

8500 electric (everything but supplying the fans)
1500 plaster repair

10000 , like I said before

unknowns ? you wanna get stuck with unknowns ? PIA job - you said you didn't want the job, so . . . like I said before , not to exceed 15K. if they balk, you walk away no harm no foul. If they take it, you both walk away with a smile on your face. you don't like the crowd ? no problemo, you don't have to.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I don't know what you mean by that? :blink:


If they do not ask for something I am not suggesting it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Who said we wouldn't?
> 
> Whatever they get will comply with the NEC so if a new circuit is needed of course new circuits would be added.


Bob.. I'm just going by your quote.. you didn't list any new circuits for the lighting or the bedroom AC units.

I don't know if a new circuit is necessary by NEC standards.. don't know the load.

Just saying it will save you grief in the long run.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I dont blame you at all, I have been up to my nose in old work resi for the last three years and I swear I have aged 10 years because of it....I am sooo tired of it all. I really need a good stready stream of commerc or industrial to get my sanity back.....



We did almost strictly resi remodel for several years for a gc. Finish one job go to the next before that one was even finished. It will wear you down if you are doing the work all yourself and dont have a mixture of all types of work at times. Luckily we do a wide range of things so I only went half crazy. When we did that shopping center by the end I wanted a resi job. Imagine just roping houses for a living. I'd go crazy for sure...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> We did almost strictly resi remodel for several years for a gc. Finish one job go to the next before that one was even finished. It will wear you down if you are doing the work all yourself and dont have a mixture of all types of work at times. Luckily we do a wide range of things so I only went half crazy. When we did that shopping center by the end I wanted a resi job. Imagine just roping houses for a living. I'd go crazy for sure...


 I like resi just not ALLLLLL the time....


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I like resi just not ALLLLLL the time....



Same here. The one thing I love about my job is that I might be setting a panel and wiring a roof top refrig unit in the morning and troubleshooting an arc fault breaker in the afternoon. I would go crazy just doing one or the other.


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That was the suggestion my guy made, he says he thinks he can get enough inside to use a crimp connector on them.



Done it many times, have to do the panel end too, or would you leave it wrapped around the metal rx connector set screw? LOL

Tom

OW is fun for sure, not favor work. I think You may scare them with a reasonable price of 5-7K anyways. I'm thinking they think it might be 3K. 4" cans get expensive fast.


Craigslist is full of 25/hr guys unfortunately, it may take 'em 2 weeks but cost the customer less than your quote.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> OK, it has been a long time since I have done residential work and I have never had to give an estimate.
> 
> Now I have to estimate the following job and really don't have a frigging clue.
> 
> ...



$4360.00

$150/ hi-hat- $20/GFI +1 hr labor,etc.

Heck! You don't need the practice!
I'm hiring guys (licensed, Call them whores) that work for (damn close to) free and making money off of them.
I won't work for free.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we don't raise our rates NO ONE ELSE WILL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Missed the AFCI- : $5000.00


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> OK, it has been a long time since I have done residential work and I have never had to give an estimate.
> 
> Now I have to estimate the following job and really don't have a frigging clue.
> 
> ...



Approximately $6500. 

That includes a new 100 amp MB 20 circuit panel with 10 GFCI circuit breakers for existing circuits, two new 15 amp circuits for recessed lighting, receptacle replacement(s), dimmer switches, etc..

I'd like to think this can be done in one week but with the new ceiling in one of the rooms a return trip at some other date is likely. I know you mentioned no up selling in one of your other posts but with the panel I'm just assuming an old federal and GFCI breakers for them will cost more than installing a whole new panel, so...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Im at about 5850 for the cans.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

leland said:


> $4360.00
> 
> $150/ hi-hat- $20/GFI +1 hr labor,etc.
> 
> ...


 Guys..........If you are a small company just you and a helper you have to charge more than the medium sized guy. There is no way around it.....You cant just go off the "going rate". You will never get ahead that way. Think about all the extra drive time and windsheild time you have. Looking at jobs, meeting new customers, getting material Who is going to account for that time..? 150 for old work cans is not enough for me...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

DO the math fellas......average high hat material is got to be at the minumum 12 bucks for the can, 3 for the bulb 5 for the trim if you go All Pro, wire at least $5 min so your at 25-30 for material. ANd thats if you go cheapo. On the average one can with set up, clean up, loading truck, yadda yadda yadda has to be at least an hour. (this doesnt include new lead law stuff) So If you charge 150 a can minus the material your at 120. I dont know what your overhead nut per hour is but mine is at the 145 an hour for me and helper. And the per can charge doesnt include the switch leg or dimmer.. 
Come on guys arent you tired of watching HVAC and Plumbers make all the cash.....


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I think to many guys get stuck on the "going rate" and dont really look at the hard numbers. They just think, "if I charge what that guy is charging I should be OK".


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

captkirk said:


> Come on guys arent you tired of watching HVAC and Plumbers make all the cash.....


I got no problem with them making money.. its the fools that think they cant charge more than the "going rate", and at the same time they crap on the people that do, and are able to put a few dollars in their own pocket.

If you can sell a receptacle swap out for $500 - I wont call you a thief, Ill call you a damn good businessman. 

We work for money right? We go through all the schooling, weather it be online, classes or an apprenticeship. We arent paid to just hook black to black and white to white, but to know WHY and HOW to hook things up properly, and to know all the codes that go with doing so.

We are paid to know when the inspector is wrong and that he should read the damn exception on 250.32 and GTFO of my face!

~Matt


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Approximately $6500.
> 
> That includes a new 100 amp MB 20 circuit panel with 10 GFCI circuit breakers for existing circuits, two new 15 amp circuits for recessed lighting, receptacle replacement(s), dimmer switches, etc..
> 
> I'd like to think this can be done in one week but with the new ceiling in one of the rooms a return trip at some other date is likely. I know you mentioned no up selling in one of your other posts but with the panel I'm just assuming an old federal and GFCI breakers for them will cost more than installing a whole new panel, so...


I would leave the panel as a possable upgrade but since I included a few extra ckts for the ACs were still pretty close. Truth is were pricing off the customers wish list the actual job would probably include at least a partial rewire. I get the impression thats what the customer wants they just dont realize it. That being said its probably closer to 10 or 12k with the service, first floor rewire, all the recessed, ac circuits, bunch of ckts to the second floor etc.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I got no problem with them making money.. its the fools that think they cant charge more than the "going rate", and at the same time they crap on the people that do, and are able to put a few dollars in their own pocket.
> 
> If you can sell a receptacle swap out for $500 - I wont call you a thief, Ill call you a damn good businessman.
> 
> ...


 I have acually had other electricians tell me I ripped people off because of some of my pricing structure.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

captkirk said:


> I have acually had other electricians tell me I ripped people off because of some of my pricing structure.


I said this before most EC are lousy businessmen and run there businesses for years never realizeing they havent made a dime.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

For the list what Bob Bager listed here 

One thing I will do for sure is run quite few new circuits due the luminaire loads { I have to sized by max wattage of each luminaires }

plus a bit of rewire to do due I do not know excat condtion is the wiring is now.

I will throw in new service to boot 200 amp 42 circuit panel size { 30 circuit IMO it ok with smaller home but I kinda dump that now go with larger one much as I can for little more cost and be done with it }

And correct any code related items to modern NEC code requirement.

Total cost will be 7300 Euros { about 9300 USD With exchange rates is current per today ( 2011/09/26 ) }

Merci.
Marc


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## user438 (Jun 6, 2007)

Just ask your boss Bob

I would say 3 fiddy


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*T&M*

T & M and best keep a change order tablet separate from the original agreement, so the friend can see where the $$$ are spent. This type of old home construction bites as I have learned from past remods. I can agree with the bid approach on additions that have gutted walls but not fished extensions and new runs in lath. :no:
A preliminary materials itemized parts list is still prudent to show the extent of what the up front money is required would soften the blow.  
On a side note, has thought been given to using some X10 plc on the project?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

gold said:


> I said this before most EC are lousy businessmen and run there businesses for years never realizeing they havent made a dime.


If your just making your payroll everyweek and covering expenses that doesnt mean your making money. Making money is profit.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

captkirk said:


> If your just making your payroll everyweek and covering expenses that doesnt mean your making money. Making money is profit.


that's just crazy talk


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

oldman said:


> that's just crazy talk


 what ever........ I guess I am doing something wrong then......LOL... Im trying to give the people that work for me something more than just a pay check every week. I dont see how you can provide health insurance and 401 by charging 125-150 a can..... or 1200 a service change...But hey dont let me stop you if what your doing works for you and your business is growing stay your course....
Im just really glad all the business courses I took almost 20 years ago are finally paying off.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Guys..........If you are a small company just you and a helper you have to charge more than the medium sized guy. There is no way around it.....You cant just go off the "going rate". You will never get ahead that way. Think about all the extra drive time and windsheild time you have. Looking at jobs, meeting new customers, getting material Who is going to account for that time..? 150 for old work cans is not enough for me...


 The upper class customers and contractors that appreciate ownerop master work over kids from the big name will gladly pay $175 a hihat, got and keep getting it in the high end towns.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> The upper class customers and contractors that appreciate ownerop master work over kids from the big name will gladly pay $175 a hihat, got and keep getting it in the high end towns.


I guess it just depends on the area you work in ......I remember when I started out three years ago and gave a kitchen designer a price of 140 a high hat and she almost spit out her coffee and said "what ...thats what people were charging back in 1990...."


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> what ever........ I guess I am doing something wrong then......LOL... Im trying to give the people that work for me something more than just a pay check every week. I dont see how you can provide health insurance and 401 by charging 125-150 a can..... or 1200 a service change...But hey dont let me stop you if what your doing works for you and your business is growing stay your course....
> Im just really glad all the business courses I took almost 20 years ago are finally paying off.



Ha! I did a 100 amp service the other week for $1,000. 

Total time spent installing and all the other crap (permits, material, etc) was 6 hours. 

Less than $200 in materials. 

$800/ 6 = $133 per hour. Not bad.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I guess it just depends on the area you work in ......I remember when I started out three years ago and gave a kitchen designer a price of 140 a high hat and she almost spit out her coffee and said "what ...thats what people were charging back in 1990...."


I'm getting a nickel to hang a chandelier for designer sheduled this week. Designers are more profitable than contractors

I just don't care or those queer NYC ones.:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Ha! I did a 100 amp service the other week for $1,000.
> 
> Total time spent installing and all the other crap (permits, material, etc) was 6 hours.
> 
> ...


Permits. Thats what sucks about NJ and PA. I only have one township out here requiring a pre work permit. All others, do the work and file underwriters. I got $1150 for an outside 100 amp service a few months back, that included the service call to cut the w/h off on the old one and temp them out. The same day I installed new coduit on a 200 amp four house down the same street for $400. Those are my happiest kind of days.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Permits. Thats what sucks about NJ and PA. I *only have one township out here requiring a pre work permit*. All others, do the work and file underwriters. I got $1150 for an outside 100 amp service a few months back, that included the service call to cut the w/h off on the old one and temp them out. The same day I installed new coduit on a 200 amp four house down the same street for $400. Those are my happiest kind of days.



I guess your talking about Smithtown and their building permit to do electrical work.

Those morons are nickel and diming us and their chief building inspector pleads guilty to taking bribes and filing false inspection papers.. :laughing:

They caught one builder in a wide net and he flipped on the whole department.. :thumbup:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

captkirk said:


> what ever........ I guess I am doing something wrong then......LOL... Im trying to give the people that work for me something more than just a pay check every week. I dont see how you can provide health insurance and 401 by charging 125-150 a can..... or 1200 a service change...But hey dont let me stop you if what your doing works for you and your business is growing stay your course....
> Im just really glad all the business courses I took almost 20 years ago are finally paying off.


too bad i convinced you to charge the lawyer more for the service...it went to your head...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

oldman said:


> too bad i convinced you to charge the lawyer more for the service...it went to your head...


Yes.....Yes it did....Thanks again... Things couldnt be better.. FWIW Im not the only one around here that charges that much..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> I guess your talking about Smithtown and their building permit to do electrical work.
> 
> Those morons are nickel and diming us and their chief building inspector pleads guilty to taking bribes and filing false inspection papers.. :laughing:
> 
> They caught one builder in a wide net and he flipped on the whole department.. :thumbup:


 Ye, the TOS, for the prices their charging they should be paying for the underwriters. I don't care for them and I do a good amount of work in their jurisdiction. My favorite towns are Islip and Huntington for Suffolk, Hempstead and N. Hempstead. Oyster Bay going through some changes where they won't be too popular, they want to conduct their own inspections and want jobs in value greater than $100k to be union. They are going to become a problem.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm getting a nickel to hang a chandelier for designer sheduled this week. Designers are more profitable than contractors
> 
> I just don't care or those queer NYC ones.:laughing:


Dude...you would not beleive what this lighting designer from NYC (that I occasionally do work with) gets for his services.......even if I told you you wouldnt beleive me....\

People will pay interior designers and lighting designers a small fortune for what they do......we seem to be the only ones that dont get it....
Who says there is no money in resi....? sure ithe work stinks but the money is there...You just have to find the right client base.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

captkirk said:


> Yes.....Yes it did....Thanks again... Things couldnt be better.. FWIW Im not the only one around here that charges that much..


i know...but it's better when you make money on projects...right?:laughing:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

oldman said:


> i know...but it's better when you make money on projects...right?:laughing:


Dont get me wrong......I dont always get Homerun jobs like that but I get many more than I used to. And I still have a soft spot in my heart for single moms and old people especially when its emergency type stuff. 

Why didnt you post your name here...? I wouldnt have gotten into it with you a while back......LOL Your alright with me Sir


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

more fun this way...now go edit your post please...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I'm getting a nickel to hang a chandelier for designer sheduled this week. Designers are more profitable than contractors
> 
> I just don't care or those queer NYC ones.:laughing:


 Oh no....the gay ones are the best. Rich people love gay designers. They will do what ever they say....


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Dude...you would not beleive what this lighting designer from NYC (that I occasionally do work with) gets for his services.......even if I told you you wouldnt beleive me....\
> 
> People will pay interior designers and lighting designers a small fortune for what they do......we seem to be the only ones that dont get it....
> Who says there is no money in resi....? sure ithe work stinks but the money is there...You just have to find the right client base.


 True that. I just don't understand why high end customers don't call us for designs, 9 out of 10 design jobs I do my ideas are within90% of their designers. It would be nice to get paid a consultation/design fee a well as the installation.The middle class are lucky since they get the layout included in the "free estimate".


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> True that. I just don't understand why high end customers don't call us for designs, 9 out of 10 design jobs I do my ideas are within90% of their designers. It would be nice to get paid a consultation/design fee a well as the installation.The middle class are lucky since they get the layout included in the "free estimate".


 Tell me about it.....whats worse is sometimes they order the material for the project and eat up our mark up....But I did learn some good stuff from the one guy I work with...Google Orsman design...Ive worked on several of his projects.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Oh no....the gay ones are the best. Rich people love gay designers. They will do what ever they say....


 I've dealt with a few, they tend to get jealous of my wife when she comes to work:laughing:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> I've dealt with a few, they tend to get jealous of my wife when she comes to work:laughing:


 :laughing::laughing::laughing: it wouldnt be Daisy Duke would it....


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> Tell me about it.....whats worse is sometimes they order the material for the project and eat up our mark up....But I did learn some good stuff from the one guy I work with...Google Orsman design...Ive worked on several of his projects.


 I try to avoid those situations, I had a pennysaver order some truly cheap chinese knock off low voltage hi hats a while back, transformers were failing almost immediately, could'nt change the housings(new work) so i ended up stashing wac 50w tas in the jbox since there was no available replacements. Needless to say he's stuck with three brighter hi hats in his kitchen.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: it wouldnt be Daisy Duke would it....


the late 30's version in blonde.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

So thanks for all the help.

You will be happy to know I used the 'going rate method'. :laughing:

I looked at all the going rates of guys that I know like to make more than wages. I went in at $6500, I would say that price surprised them and they are looking for others to do the work. :thumbsup:

It turns out I could not do the work anyway due to the lead rules here in MA.


Thanks again it was interesting to see all the different ways it was estimated and still came out in the 5000 to 7000 range.

I agree with the comments made that our guys would be slower at this than the guys that do this all the time. I know my limitations.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> So thanks for all the help.
> 
> You will be happy to know I used the 'going rate method'. :laughing:
> 
> ...


 They wanted the Craigslist price........I can only do that Jekyll and Hyde, one county gets Jekyll, the other, Hyde.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> So thanks for all the help.
> 
> You will be happy to know I used the 'going rate method'. :laughing:
> 
> ...


How many hours did you figure for (2) men?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

50 - 60 man hours


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

LOL, that's the average homeowner.

They may call you to fix it later when the 3K guy bails.

Tom


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