# ??????? Cutting off ground rods



## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

4 times


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## SparkyinMontan (Sep 16, 2011)

How about driving a ground rod through a water line off the treater for an oil well. Talk about a nasty fix!!!

~A


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

No, never.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Back before they got nasty about it, it was a common occurrence. Since the new markings on the ground rods, not so much. They'll pull your license if the catch you, so I hear.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

kbatku said:


> Back before they got nasty about it, it was a common occurrence. Since the new markings on the ground rods, not so much. They'll pull your license if the catch you, so I hear.


what new markings on the rods? It's news to me. have any pictures of these markings?


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

kbatku said:


> Back before they got nasty about it, it was a common occurrence. Since the new markings on the ground rods, not so much. They'll pull your license if the catch you, so I hear.


Just as they should if you're paid to provide a service especially something like that you better damn well do it right.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Elephante said:


> Have you guys ever cut a ground rod with a sawzall and mushroomed the head like you never did.


No I don't do that and there is other ways around to do this to sink the rods.

Merci,
Marc


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

No.. never had too.. Long Island is sand and potato size rocks.. if I lived in Colorado.. well.....:whistling2::laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Pound the useless rods. Most are either not beneficial when put in, or become so shortly. The code is hyper about grounding. One high resistance ground rod is bad, but pound a second and all is fine in the world. Makes no sense to me.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Thats a BIG no no, They call that a will full violation here in WA and will pull your license's for it. 
There are plenty of option's to make it not justifiable in any situation.


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Grinders work so much better!! :jester:


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

Save yourself the trouble and just cut the top 3" off and just stick it in the ground. Why pound it saw it and pound it again


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## Julius793 (Nov 29, 2011)

Edrick said:


> Save yourself the trouble and just cut the top 3" off and just stick it in the ground. Why pound it saw it and pound it again


:laughing: Because you never know when your going to hit the rock, you don't wana make it shorter you just want it to be all the way in.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Smart people will install the clamp on the rod before they start driving the rod.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

nolabama said:


> I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


Iwas going to say the same thing.

Question why would you cut the rod?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nolabama said:


> I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


What's the cup made of? I use a fence post pounder and a small maul.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

backstay said:


> What's the cup made of? I use a fence post pounder and a small maul.


Haha. Styrofoam


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Haha. Styrofoam


I just put two in last week. The only thing a styrofoam cup would be good for here is coffee. We have a foot of frozen ground to go through.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We cut ground rods all the time, into two foot lenghts for our Earth/Ground Resistance test set. We need probes all the time and use rebar or ground rods often driving them flat into the ground after testing, if they do not pull out easily.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Magnettica said:


> what new markings on the rods? It's news to me. have any pictures of these markings?


I believe that is in in the NEC - I'll look later. The driven end has been dipped (or painted) a copper color, with printing on the last foot or so with the manufactures name and model #.

When I was doing production wiring (spec houses) time was of the essence and if you had to cut off a foot or two of rod to finish the job in a timely manner, that's what you did. It was that or lose your job.

Now, if you cut them, you lose your job. Problem solved.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

My area, being on the shoulder of a major mountain range, can be a tough one to get a rod in.

I do my darndest to get that rod in as far as it will go, and might even set a second rod. I leave the rods standing proud of the ground the 1-3 ft. that just won't go in - even with a jackhammer- and show the inspector the severely mushroomed heads, the holes from additional rod-setting attempts, and ask him to sign off on the job as it is. THEN I cut the rods at clamp level.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

What do you do when the building is a bare rock. Up here some places are built on ledge rock, we call it the Canadian shield. You have no soil on top of the rock. We run pipe on the surface for a service or sometimes cover the PVC with concrete. I have run all the way back to the lake and installed ground rods in the water(200 ft).


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Bare rock? ..... well, the code nazis will say "do whatever it takes to make a 30" deep trench and lay the rod in it." Yea, like that's possible; but it's in our code book as an alternate for solid rock.

Time to re-think this whole ground rod business ....

Like ... what, exactly, is a 'concrete encased electrode?' I believe that a closer examination of the "Ufer" might produce some alternatives.

Ufer requirements only assume that the electrode is part of the building's foundation; it is not a requirement. 

Folks seem to think of the required electrode (20 ft. #4 copper or ordinary rebar, can be separate pieces with the usual wire ties) as a straight length ... but nowhere is that specified.

Nor is a depth specified.

Look at the change in the most recent edition, and you'll see that the anchor bolts of steel columns can also be counted as making up a Ufer. 

What I'm getting at is that, IMO, the code would allow you to coil up that copper wire and stick it in a simple 4" thick, 3ft. x 3ft. concrete slab you pour atop the rock right under the panel. This would also help protect your 'working space.' 

Heck, I might try this on good soil, just to see what happens. Maybe the days of banging in rods are gone ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nolabama said:


> I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


You would not do that here, not a chance in hell. That water will not move the dozen potato size rocks you will hit.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> Folks seem to think of the required electrode (20 ft. #4 copper or ordinary rebar, can be separate pieces with the usual wire ties) as a straight length ... but nowhere is that specified.


It does not have to be a straight length. It never has had to be AFAIK.

If the builing is built on solid rock how are they getting the water to it? How about sewer? I'm sure your frost depth up there exceeds 30 inches so why cant you lay the rod horizontally in the water or sewer trench? 

For that matter if you could install 20 feet (in a circle if you wish) of #4 or better re-bar or #4 copper at or near the bottom of the structure footing or foundation you can omit the rod altogether.

Pete


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

every time i drive a ground rod chances are i will hit rocks. i cut my fair share of rods. usually always just a few inches to a foot :whistling2:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I have dug holes and bent the rods over a time or two. But seeing how useless they are, these days I give them the Sawzall discount:laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

sparkie2010 said:


> Question why would you cut the rod?


Answer. In areas other than Florida, sometimes they just stop.

I use a 30 pound demo hammer and, when the rod doen't go any further after several minutes, it aint goin no more.

It occaisionally happens and it will never have a negative impact on the electrical system.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Ground rods are pretty much crap in our soil. I haven't had to chop any yet, but I don't care if you put 10 ground rods in, you will never see 25 ohms to ground. With enough finagling and enough angle I can usually get them to go, but it may take a few tries. I figure that bonding to the rebar in a foundation is a much better ground anyways.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

nolabama said:


> I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


You can sink anything in that swamp. The worst I've come across is sea shells used as fill.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

The only time I have CUT THE TOP off a ground rod is because of mushrooming AND the cad weld mold would not close. That's a last resort kind of thing cuz they SUCK to cut. I will work a ground clamp on before I cut one where a mechanical connection is called for/allowed. Out of all the ground rods I've driven the total is three............................ I think:001_huh:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

nolabama said:


> I have never cut a ground rod. I also drive them by hand with a cup of water.


A hammer instead of water is easier. :thumbsup:


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

I would never cut an ground rod. Its not because I think they are beneficial but more so that I wouldnt want to feel like a hack. I have had to re-position them a few times, but they always go in.


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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

Kinda like this?

Sent by my thumbs.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> A hammer instead of water is easier. :thumbsup:


 No no it's not. If you have never done it, you won't understand. Now A big hammer drill? yea that is easier.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

I still see at least a few $500.00 fines our state board gives out for that in every quarterly newsletter.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

walkerj said:


> Kinda like this?
> 
> Sent by my thumbs.


 
Best picture ever, thanks dude


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

walkerj said:


> Kinda like this?
> 
> Sent by my thumbs.


Funny.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Tdr*

I just give me inspector my tdr. It shows exactly the length. He really likes it. 


Oh, the 4 that I cut were like 7-10 yrs ago and I still had greater than 8 ft left after cut.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Amish Electrician said:


> Bare rock? ..... well, the code nazis will say "do whatever it takes to make a 30" deep trench and lay the rod in it." Yea, like that's possible; but it's in our code book as an alternate for solid rock.
> 
> Time to re-think this whole ground rod business ....
> 
> ...



No sewer or water trenches. These places are summer only, have the plumbing on the surface if at all(many have no pumbing)The buildings sit on concrete piling so no footings.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

How would the inspector know the true length of the rod? I buy 10 footers all the time. So if I cut some off it's still legal. Right? I would never pay a fine without some type of proof of wrong doing


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## 19kilosparky984 (Sep 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> How would the inspector know the true length of the rod? I buy 10 footers all the time. So if I cut some off it's still legal. Right? I would never pay a fine without some type of proof of wrong doing


Nope, you altering the ground rod thus voiding the ul listing


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

19kilosparky984 said:


> Nope, you altering the ground rod thus voiding the ul listing


Ground rods aren't required to be listed


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ground rods aren't required to be listed


 
Maclary.,

Do you have a art number that stated it don't have to use the listed rods like other means ?

I know it was in the NEC but I don't really recall that it don't have to be listed so if you can come up with something that will be fine.

Merci,
Marc


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## parnellelectric (Dec 23, 2011)

For the record I have NEVER cut a ground rod


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Maclary.,
> 
> Do you have a art number that stated it don't have to use the listed rods like other means ?
> 
> ...



250.52(A)(5)(b).


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

(b) Grounding electrodes of stainless steel and copper
or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (​​​​5⁄8 in.) in
diameter, unless listed and not less than 12.70 mm (1⁄2 in.)​
in diameter.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Merci,

Somehow I did miss that part in my NEC codebook I was reading in wrong section opps bad for moi ( tsk.,, tsk.,,) 

Merci,
Marc


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> How would the inspector know the true length of the rod? I buy 10 footers all the time. So if I cut some off it's still legal. Right? I would never pay a fine without some type of proof of wrong doing


 They wont, The ways Ive heard of people being caught.
1) leave the rod close to the spot that it was cut.
2) by kicking it and it is very loose, Or just pops out.
3)Not mushrooming the head of the cut rod.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ground rods aren't required to be listed


I agree, but if you buy a listed one you cannot modify it.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I agree, but if you buy a listed one you cannot modify it.


 
I disagree, he was referring to cutting a little off a 10' rod. 


IMO, a listed 5/8 X 10' rod with 12" cutoff is still legal


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*yep*



mcclary's electrical said:


> I disagree, he was referring to cutting a little off a 10' rod.
> 
> 
> IMO, a listed 5/8 X 10' rod with 12" cutoff is still legal


I always run 10ft rods just for that instance. If I have to cut a little no big deal as long as it's over 8ft. Now, I have my tdr to prove the lenght to inspector as well. :thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I disagree, he was referring to cutting a little off a 10' rod.
> 
> 
> IMO, a listed 5/8 X 10' rod with 12" cutoff is still legal


110.3(B) says no IMO.


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## Outdoorguy (Sep 5, 2011)

kbatku said:


> Back before they got nasty about it, it was a common occurrence. Since the new markings on the ground rods, not so much. They'll pull your license if the catch you, so I hear.


That's why you cut the bottom and drive the side with the markings. Just kidding. I don't cut them. An old inspector told me about that little diddy.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> 110.3(B) says no IMO.


 
OK, you got me there


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> OK, you got me there


Honestly there is no reason an inspector could not approve it if they were willing. UL says it is up to the AHJ to decide if the modifications are too much.

But OTH an inspector would not have to accept it.

We both know it would work just as well.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Why don't you guys just use a plate electrode? It's very common up here and often easier than driving a rod especially if there's already been excavation done for other reasons.

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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