# Union Apprenticeship class time



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Just curious, not starting crap....

Why doesn't the IBEW offer paid 3 months of class upfront. Then OJT for 2 yrs. Then 3 paid months of class time, during working hours, followed by 3 yrs of OJT?

You would provide a better educated worker quicker, while improving your image and improving recruitment.

Why train someone in 5 yrs, what you can teach them in 6 months?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

There is no way you could teach someone everything they need to know in 6months. What happens if that person quits in a year?


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

william1978 said:


> There is no way you could teach someone everything they need to know in 6months. What happens if that person quits in a year?


The class room time is 1000 hrs....no?

If the guy quits, he quits. Better to have him out early in the game. You will have some that will do that, but I think you already have some of this going on now.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think the class being spread out over a few years is better than just 6 months, because the apprentice can see what he has read about in class on the job.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

william1978 said:


> I think the class being spread out over a few years is better than just 6 months, because the apprentice can see what he has read about in class on the job.


What is his retention rate of learning electron flow for 2 or 3 hours at night,once a week, and hoofing pipe and digging ditches during the day, compared to 3 months of straight class time. He would be trained from electron flow, up to protection of conductors we'll say. Then he goes out and installs pipe, hoofs pipe, digs and installs conduit.....ect.

Would seem more productive to me.


----------



## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I am apt to agree with William1978 in that I have been doing electrical work for 28 years and learn something new everyday.One other thought is the contractor pays a percentage for apprentice, and I would take it they bid their jobs with this in mind. The fast pace 1 year program has the sounds of an impatient soul not wanting to take the time to learn in a proper manner, which would make me leery of the quality of work they would install.There are a small percentage of humans who only need to hear something once and have total recall, but I wound guess if that were you, we would not be typing inre to this thread.Good luck in your quest, I have heard of programs being shortened due to previous work experience.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> The fast pace 1 year program has the sounds of an impatient soul not wanting to take the time to learn in a proper manner, which would make me leery of the quality of work they would install.


Why do doctors go to school for yrs, before being allowed to do anything?

You have it the other way around.


----------



## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

I agree with William. In my state here there is no option for a straight 6 month course and if it was truly effective then I think that it would be offered by the colleges....Most employers use the school as measurement for deciding when to give raises also, and why cram school into your head for six months straight before you ever worked in the field to see how it all comes together?


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> I agree with William. In my state here there is no option for a straight 6 month course and if it was truly effective then I think that it would be offered by the colleges....


Is the demand there? I would think not in the private sector for colleges.

The Union apprenticeships advantage is, it is a paid for education, paid by other members. 

Private colleges would require the student to pay for the education, and not receive compensation while attending.




> Most employers use the school as measurement for deciding when to give raises also, ?


Is this above/on top of, the Union guidelines for pay raises?


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think rushing them through the apprenticeship will turn out less qualified journeymen.


----------



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Perhaps it has something to do with funding from the state department of education.


----------



## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Just curious, not starting crap....
> 
> Why doesn't the IBEW offer paid 3 months of class upfront. Then OJT for 2 yrs. Then 3 paid months of class time, during working hours, followed by 3 yrs of OJT?
> 
> ...


Every local does it a bit different. In 98 you go to school one day a week and work four. The idea is to couple the class room and books WITH the OTJ and the hands on experience. I don't think bunching the schooling up would do any thing for our "image". The way the apprenticeship is set up is not the problem. It's impossible to learn the same amount of material in 6 months, as to what you get in 5 years. Remember it's the combination of class room time AND field experience.




Dnkldorf said:


> Why do doctors go to school for yrs, before being allowed to do anything?
> 
> You have it the other way around.


Not really. Doctors work long internships followed by the residency and then by a fellowship.

Plus were kinda comparing apples to oranges. Sure you need to have some level of intelligence to be an electrician but doctors we are not.




> Is this above/on top of, the Union guidelines for pay raises?


For an apprentice to receive his or her "raises", they must have a passing grade in each class and meet the required amount of hours. If an apprentice isn't meeting their requirements then they don't get their raise, pass to the next year, and are typically fined hours as well. failing one year of apprentice school would in reality take 2 years or more to make up.





knowshorts said:


> Perhaps it has something to do with funding from the state department of education.


the IBEW apprenticeship receives ZERO money from any where besides the membership. We're totally self funded.


----------



## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Is the demand there? I would think not in the private sector for colleges.
> 
> The Union apprenticeships advantage is, it is a paid for education, paid by other members.
> 
> ...


As far as I know, in my local the apprentices books and tuition are paid but they do not receive a paycheck from the hall while attending. They go to class 1 week a month and claim unemployment for that week....And there is a demand out here for the college courses, just no demand for a straight 6 month course.....If you can't take your JW test without a required minimum 8000 hours of in-field work, what is the benefit to blasting through the schooling right off the bat?


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Widestance_Politics said:


> They go to class 1 week a month and claim unemployment for that week....


That's F-up. They should not be entilted to Unemployment.





Widestance_Politics said:


> And there is a demand out here for the college courses, just no demand for a straight 6 month course.....


You might be misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you. 

The UA school is not a college course. There is no such thing as an Apprenticeship degree, is there?



Widestance_Politics said:


> If you can't take your JW test without a required minimum 8000 hours of in-field work, what is the benefit to blasting through the schooling right off the bat?


You have a better educated worker, in a shorter amount of time.


----------



## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> That's F-up. They should not be entilted to Unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed the unemployment since they fit the requirements. In fact if they don't work enough hours they don't receive it....there's nothing illegal going on there, and they would rather be getting their full paycheck so it's not like they are trying to screw the system or something....I don't think that we are misunderstanding each other, I am just talking about the Apprenticeship program in general rather than just focusing on how the Union operates theirs, but solely based on the Unions program, I never hear anyone pushing this idea so I assume everyone is pretty much happy with how it currently works.....and no there is no such thing as an apprentice degree, you just get a certificate of completion stating that you completed the states required classroom hours....


----------



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> the IBEW apprenticeship receives ZERO money from any where besides the membership. We're totally self funded.


Not sure about where you are at, but when I interviewed a local to find about becoming signatory, the organizer told me they are subsidized by state money. 

Let's do a little math. When I went in, it was good times. I was told they (the local) were pulling in about 6 million man hours a year. Now they have no work. So let's assume they are pulling 4 million man hours a year. Training contributions are $0.56 per hour. Journeyman - $0.05 + $0.51 from contractor. Apprentice - $0.00 + $0.56 from contractor. 4 million hours times $0.56 per hour equals $2.24 million. 

They say they turn out about 150 per semester. That's 1500 apprentices in school at one time. So called cost for tuition is $1500 per year. 1500 apprentices times $1500 tuition per year equals $2.25 million.

Right now, they would be 100,000 in the whole. Now try adding all the expenses of staffing and running a 80,000 square foot building. I would guess the nut would be at least a million a year. 

So now they're short at least $1.1 million. Where's the money coming from? Answer - the state of California. 

The apprenticeship classes are monitored by the state. The curriculum is monitored by the state. Every absent and tardy is monitored by the state. Why, because the state is footing some of the bill. All educational facilities in the state get money from Sacramento. The students get college credit for their courses and can transfer to a state university, right? That's because the state was monitoring the original apprenticeship courses, and footing part of the bill.

Your state may very.


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> The apprenticeship classes are monitored by the state. The curriculum is monitored by the state. Every absent and tardy is monitored by the state. Why, because the state is footing some of the bill. All educational facilities in the state get money from Sacramento. The students get college credit for their courses and can transfer to a state university, right? That's because the state was monitoring the original apprenticeship courses, and footing part of the bill.
> 
> Your state may very.



You are I believe 100% correct. 

The curriculum is not only monitored by the state but drawn up by the state. 

The apprenticeship is accredited but I the amount of credits that could be transferred varies. In addition to the apprenticeship here in NYC we also have to get an associates degree in labor science. So we go through the apprentice schooling as well as college courses. 

But yes... the state does put money into it.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Am I reading this right?

Taxpayers money being to used fund this schooling, and taxpayers money used to pay them while unemployed and going to these classes?

No friking way.

Raise the dues on the members, and give the money back to the taxpayers.


----------



## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Am I reading this right?
> 
> Taxpayers money being to used fund this schooling, and taxpayers money used to pay them while unemployed and going to these classes?
> 
> ...


Tax payers pay for a lot you may not be happy about. I am not sure where the money comes from. Here in California we have an idiot tax. It's called the lottery. A good portion of the lottery money goes to education. 

As far as taxpayers paying for unemployment, I don't think that is how it works. I believe ALL (correct me if I am wrong) UI compensation is paid from employers that have employees.


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> Tax payers pay for a lot you may not be happy about. I am not sure where the money comes from. Here in California we have an idiot tax. It's called the lottery. A good portion of the lottery money goes to education.
> 
> As far as taxpayers paying for unemployment, I don't think that is how it works. I believe ALL (correct me if I am wrong) UI compensation is paid from employers that have employees.


As far as the apprenticeship goes it varies from state to state. In a lot of cases it is paid for by the industry. In the case of my union it is paid for by our industry. Which includes the contractor and journeymen. The contractors are also given tax incentives to pay into it.


----------



## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

knowshorts said:


> Tax payers pay for a lot you may not be happy about. I am not sure where the money comes from. Here in California we have an idiot tax. It's called the lottery. A good portion of the lottery money goes to education.


And I have no problem with this, as long as the whole public is privy to the eductaion if they want. Using it for special interests is wrong.




knowshorts said:


> As far as taxpayers paying for unemployment, I don't think that is how it works. I believe ALL (correct me if I am wrong) UI compensation is paid from employers that have employees.


Same here. When it is all said and done, the end user "taxpayer" is really paying all the money. It is like this bank tax they want to pass. The banks will claim they pay the tax, but in reality, the users of the banks will end up paying it.


Chris, your way your Union works is kinda how I thought things should work. If someone has an oppurtunity to work, and decides not to and go to school instead, should not be entitled to UC. IMO.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Would the apprentice have the hours required for testing for the JW exam? Last I heard 6 months is not enough in the trade time (experience) for testing. Journeyman electricians when I was in the union had to have a license before they were bumped up to mechanic.


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Chris, your way your Union works is kinda how I thought things should work. If someone has an oppurtunity to work, and decides not to and go to school instead, should not be entitled to UC. IMO.



But you need to understand another thing. any "non-union" apprentice program needs to be registered through the state and/or government and they get the same thing a union apprentice program gets. The only real difference, I believe, is that a union apprentice does not pay for his/her schooling because the contractor and journeymen pay for it.

The Dept. of Labor gives out grants all the time that helps pay for this stuff. Just recently they awarded nearly $2 million to registered apprentice programs throughout the USA to give women more work training opportunities. 

In New York State I needed to complete a certain amount of school hours and work hours in order to be recognized as a journeyman in the state of NY. Which was 4 years.


----------



## undeadwiring (Feb 9, 2010)

Sorry to intrude on the conversation and all, I just have a question though do any of you know where to find private apprentice training programs at in nyc ? If so how much do they normally run? Or do I have to go through a company to get into it ?


----------

