# Still learning materials



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

This is what the NEC says about it in article 370-20

In Wall or Ceiling boxes must be installed so that the front edge will not be set back more than 1/4 inch from the finished surface.

There are many types of spacers but you may also want to consider box extensions as well to be compliant.

Here are a few options. The first one is kind of a novelty because I have used them and the holes don’t align to the box that well and need to be drilled out. The next 2 items are box extenders and the last 2 are device spacers and can be used in conjunction with the Arlington Be1.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

We have a similar requirement here. I tend to use the Arlington box extenders when needed, but when the drywall or concrete is missing and won't hold the tab in place, I use a #6 x 32 nut or a #8 x 32 nut and you usually need a 2" matching machine screw. I back the nut close to the device, then when it just about in position, I will hold the nut with a small tool (usually a terminal strip driver) until the nut tightens on the strap of the device.

This approach gives me a good connection from the strap to the device box and stops the device from being pushed back onto the box. I am not sure what the plastic box guys do, since I never use them up here I have never come across the situation.

Cheers
John


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## getting old (Mar 26, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> We have a similar requirement here. I tend to use the Arlington box extenders when needed, but when the drywall or concrete is missing and won't hold the tab in place, I use a #6 x 32 nut or a #8 x 32 nut and you usually need a 2" matching machine screw. I back the nut close to the device, then when it just about in position, I will hold the nut with a small tool (usually a terminal strip driver) until the nut tightens on the strap of the device.
> 
> This approach gives me a good connection from the strap to the device box and stops the device from being pushed back onto the box. I am not sure what the plastic box guys do, since I never use them up here I have never come across the situation.
> 
> ...


Instead of the 6-32 nut in this situation, I use 1/4" plastic water hose that's used for refrigerator water lines. Cut it about and 1/8" longer then the distance from the box to the finished wall, slide it over the device screw, and screw it in. It'll compress down and holds incredibly well. Much faster and never comes lose. I use it now for every plug even if the wall surface is perfectly cut to the box edge. Just makes the plug feel more solid. It's cheap too, got 25 feet for 4 bucks. Just don't leave a 4 inch piece in your pocket for your wife to find in the washer, she'll think you're snorting drugs...

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Caddy makes a device leveler that might work in this situation? Otherwise wrap some solid wire around a small philips head screwdriver. Put as many wraps as you need, and slide it off. Trim to the correct depth with your *****. You can also use a cut down Greenie wirenut.

I’d have to look at the wording, but I believe it’s says 1/4” back in combustible material. To me tile is not combustible, but most inspectors don’t go for it.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> Otherwise wrap some solid wire around a small philips head screwdriver. Put as many wraps as you need, and slide it off. Trim to the correct depth with your ***.


That's my go to method as well.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Vladaar said:


> A customer came into my big box store yesterday wanting a spacer for his receptacle because he added a backsplash.
> 
> Never heard of it I was thinking you would just use a washer or screw it in only so far? What do you guys do? Turns out we did have little ideal plastic spacers tucked away in a spot I never noticed.


You will be learning about new materials for the rest of your life in the Electrical trade.
Manufacturers are always looking for anew improved or new design.
Been doing electrical work for over 45 years, seen a bunch of things change or even invented.
Some things never seem to change.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I was in the paint dept of the big box store today and asked the woman behind the paint desk where the Kilz was. She just looked dumbfounded and said "what?" I just walked away mumbling under my breath about the stupidity of a paint salesperson who doesn't know what the major brand of stain blocking primer is.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I just go buy a box and take it to the bandsaw and use longer screws to screw through the new spacer and into the mounted box. It lets you make it any dimension you need.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

I have actually thought about cutting a box down also in the past, but I don't have a band saw, and I know my nut idea works solid. I started once using a cutoff wheel in a grinder, but it was a mess, so that was the last time for that.

Cheers
John


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Navyguy said:


> I have actually thought about cutting a box down also in the past, but I don't have a band saw, and I know my nut idea works solid. I started once using a cutoff wheel in a grinder, but it was a mess, so that was the last time for that.
> 
> Cheers
> John


Buy the band saw its money well spent. I use it to cut steel for concrete too.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

Navyguy said:


> I have actually thought about cutting a box down also in the past, but I don't have a band saw, and I know my nut idea works solid. I started once using a cutoff wheel in a grinder, but it was a mess, so that was the last time for that.
> 
> Cheers
> John


I have a bandsaw. I don't use it often, but it's a so nice to have when you need one. It makes EMT jobs a breeze. No hacking up the pipe and unistrut with a recip saw. If I had it to do again, I would buy a battery bandsaw instead of a corded.


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## Strut Guru (Apr 22, 2021)

wiz1997 said:


> You will be learning about new materials for the rest of your life in the Electrical trade.
> Manufacturers are always looking for anew improved or new design.
> Been doing electrical work for over 45 years, seen a bunch of things change or even invented.
> Some things never seem to change.


True and here is another new product line that we deigned and manufacture in the US. We worked to redesign the channel strut system to make it more efficient and cheaper. If ever looking to hang conduit supports or metal framing, Dakota Strut System is unique time saving option. The strut is precut in several different lengths so no need to mess around with cutting, the manufactured slots allow you to snap in EMT clamps with no tools, and the smart nut eliminates the hex nut, washer, spring nut combo when hanging the trapeze. 

We learn something new everyday


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## TonyIBEW134 (Jun 30, 2021)

getting old said:


> Instead of the 6-32 nut in this situation, I use 1/4" plastic water hose that's used for refrigerator water lines. Cut it about and 1/8" longer then the distance from the box to the finished wall, slide it over the device screw, and screw it in. It'll compress down and holds incredibly well. Much faster and never comes lose. I use it now for every plug even if the wall surface is perfectly cut to the box edge. Just makes the plug feel more solid. It's cheap too, got 25 feet for 4 bucks. Just don't leave a 4 inch piece in your pocket for your wife to find in the washer, she'll think you're snorting drugs...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I agree with the tubing. 1/4" poly tubing cut slightly longer than needed holds very well and it slips right over a 6/32 screw.
I always have a piece of the tubing in my tool bag.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

TonyIBEW134 said:


> I agree with the tubing. 1/4" poly tubing cut slightly longer than needed holds very well and it slips right over a 6/32 screw.
> I always have a piece of the tubing in my tool bag.


Tony. Please check your messages.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

__





Arlington | BE1 Product Information


Box Extender, levels and supports the wiring device where the box is set back from the wall surface extends the box up to 1-1/2




www.aifittings.com





I found these work the best...I use them all the time on kitchen renovations


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> Caddy makes a device leveler that might work in this situation? Otherwise wrap some solid wire around a small philips head screwdriver. Put as many wraps as you need, and slide it off. Trim to the correct depth with your ***. You can also use a cut down Greenie wirenut.
> 
> I’d have to look at the wording, but I believe it’s says 1/4” back in combustible material. To me tile is not combustible, but most inspectors don’t go for it.
> View attachment 156847


A "combustible" wall would be wood studs and/or paneling or the like, whereas a "non-combustible" wall would be steel studs and ot the like.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Easy said:


> This is what the NEC says about it in article 370-20
> 
> In Wall or Ceiling boxes must be installed so that the front edge will not be set back more than 1/4 inch from the finished surface.
> 
> ...


I use both the Arlington product and the "Box Extenders." The holes line up fine as long as the box itself is okay.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Matt Hermanson said:


> A "combustible" wall would be wood studs and/or paneling or the like, whereas a "non-combustible" wall would be steel studs and ot the like.


I was wrong. In non-combustible walls the box has to finish within 1/4”. In combustible walls it has to finish flush. I understand perfectly what is considered combustible and what is not. I just always thought it was rediculas that you have to use a box extender if a tile backsplash was used and the box was within an 1/8” of being flush before tile. That little bit of tile in a box is not going to burn or catch fire. Around here, as soon as an inspector sees tile, he wants to take the plate off.


*314.20 Flush-Mounted Installations.*
Installations within or behind a surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncombustible material, including boxes employing a flush-type cover or faceplate, shall be made so that the front edge of the box, plaster ring, extension ring, or listed extender will not be set back of the finished surface more than 6 mm (1/4 in.).
Installations within a surface of wood or other combustible surface material, boxes, plaster rings, extension rings, or listed extenders shall extend tothe finished surface or project therefrom.
*314.21 Repairing Noncombustible Surfaces.*
Noncombustible surfaces that are broken or incomplete around boxes employing a flush-type cover or faceplate shall be repaired so there will be no gaps or open spaces greater than 3 mm (1/8 in.) at the edge of the box.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> I was wrong. In non-combustible walls the box has to finish within 1/4”. In combustible walls it has to finish flush. I understand perfectly what is considered combustible and what is not. I just always thought it was rediculas that you have to use a box extender if a tile backsplash was used and the box was within an 1/8” of being flush before tile. That little bit of tile in a box is not going to burn or catch fire. Around here, as soon as an inspector sees tile, he wants to take the plate off.
> 
> 
> *314.20 Flush-Mounted Installations.*
> ...


If you marked your parts up more, it wouldn't seem so "rediculas" to you. In fact you'd relish such opportunities.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Matt Hermanson said:


> If you marked your parts up more, it wouldn't seem so "rediculas" to you. In fact you'd relish such opportunities.


No it’s still ridiculous. 3/8” of tile and sheet rock is not going to catch on fire. I’m an hourly employee, so I don’t mark up anything. I just do my best to satisfy the code, the inspector and my employer.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> No it’s still ridiculous. 3/8” of tile and sheet rock is not going to catch on fire. I’m an hourly employee, so I don’t mark up anything. I just do my best to satisfy the code, the inspector and my employer.


To paraphrase the late Neil Peart, "Do not be such a Maple envious of the Oaks because profits are written on the tiled walls."


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I find it difficult to flush out boxes when there is a back splash. I use adjustable plastic boxes for residential kitchens and baths and adjustable mud rings for metal boxes. Either the customer changes his mind and switches from tile to granite or the tile guy adds extra thin-set and your box ends up too far back from the surface. The problem is that even if you use adjustable boxes the tile guys mud them in so tight you have to chip them out just to make an adjustment or they actually cover the box with tile and notch groves where your 6/32 screws go. I have even adjusted the boxes all the way out and shown the tile guys how to adjust them before they start work but they just seem to want to adjust them back and tile over them so you can’t adjust them.

It’s extremely frustrating when you spend $10 on an adjustable metal mud ring and it takes you an hour to grind away the excess tile so you can adjust it.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Coppersmith said:


> I was in the paint dept of the big box store today and asked the woman behind the paint desk where the Kilz was. She just looked dumbfounded and said "what?" I just walked away mumbling under my breath about the stupidity of a paint salesperson who doesn't know what the major brand of stain blocking primer is.


I have found the the HD people are better trained than they are at Lowes. But... that could just be here, or because HD has a better general manager.


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## Vladaar (Mar 9, 2021)

This shirt in the link showcases the problem I think sometimes. Average people don't use their hands at all, rather they pay people to do the smallest of things.









Amazon.com: Funny Electrician Shirt Joke Electrical Speak Quote Gift T-Shirt : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry


Buy Funny Electrician Shirt Joke Electrical Speak Quote Gift T-Shirt: Shop top fashion brands T-Shirts at Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY and Returns possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





So while the shirt is about speaking electrical, it's trades in general that dumbfounds people. Matter fact, I'm always amazed how many 40 year old men can't change the oil in their own vehicles.

Or maybe the shirt does not, and it's just something I think is funny. LoL.


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## Cosmorok (Jun 3, 2019)

Quickservice said:


> I have found the the HD people are better trained than they are at Lowes. But... that could just be here, or because HD has a better general manager.


It's because Home Depot didn't have to deal Cory from Lowe's. It's a oldie but a goodie video





Sent from my SM-G991W using Tapatalk


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Cosmorok said:


> It's because Home Depot didn't have to deal Cory from Lowe's. It's a oldie but a goodie video
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't imagine them selling many of those to a HO.


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