# 60V at a 3-way when in the off posotion?



## Jono89 (Dec 21, 2011)

Hi guys, I've encountered this problem twice now. The first time, I was replacing a light fixture, and I was the only one in the house, so I just turned off the 3 way switch before getting to work. The light turned off so I was sure there was no power. While I was working on it, I got a zap, so I metered hot to neutral and hot to ground, and in both cases I got 60 volts. Since then I've encountered the same thing one other time. Any idea what is causing this? A faulty switch maybe?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Well normally I would blame it on phantom voltage but you say you got a shock. 

*Phantom Voltages - NEMA *


Are you sure you got a shock? 60 volts is pretty low to feel unless you are soaking wet.


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## Jono89 (Dec 21, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Well normally I would blame it on phantom voltage but you say you got a shock.
> 
> Phantom Voltages - NEMA
> 
> Are you sure you got a shock? 60 volts is pretty low to feel unless you are soaking wet.


100% sure. It went from the hot, through my hand to the box.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Jono89 said:


> 100% sure. It went from the hot, through my hand to the box.


 If you have a dimmer in the circuit you will get some voltage. I have also seen a bad 3 way cause this problem.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

You may have a lighted switch on the other end.


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## Jono89 (Dec 21, 2011)

No dimmer and I'm not sure what you mean by a lighted switch?


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

how many times have you seen a 3way light wired into the neutral. it's hard to E-explain. but in the middle of a wire run, and the switch is dead ended with a 3 wire NM-B. and the lamp is cut into the white wire.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> how many times have you seen a 3way light wired into the neutral. it's hard to E-explain. but in the middle of a wire run, and the switch is dead ended with a 3 wire NM-B. and the lamp is cut into the white wire.


 I have no idea what you are trying to say.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say.


*Explaining this electronically is hard.*
take a 14-3 NM-B wire. and run it from switch box A and Switch box B.
switch box A has a hot and neutral too.
switch box B only has the 14-3 wire in it. The black and red are the travelers. The white is connected to the black screw in switch box B.

now, take your lamp, and cut it into the white wire in the middle of that 14-3 wire run, and your 3 way works perfectly.

If I can draw it out, it's sure would easier to understand.


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> *Explaining this electronically is hard.*
> take a 14-3 NM-B wire. and run it from switch box A and Switch box B.
> switch box A has a hot and neutral too.
> switch box B only has the 14-3 wire in it. The black and red are the travelers. The white is connected to the black screw in switch box B.
> ...



That is called a dead end 3 way.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I understand that but what has that got to do with the op's question.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bulldog1 said:


> That is called a dead end 3 way.


Except he is splicing it somewhere. Normally I see the 14/3 splice thru in the light. He is saying to splice it in the middle of the run


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

We call it "cutting it into the neutral". maybe someone called it that, and it stuck, cause you see 2 white wires connected to the lamp holder.

but maybe that's why he got SHOCKED. The lamp holder junction box always has voltage, no matter how you look at it. He says he's turned off a light switch. He's not turning off a light switch, he's just putting the voltage on the other traveler wire. and he got zapped, thinking it was wired differently.

turn the breaker off, and you won't get zapped.....


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> We call it "cutting it into the neutral". maybe someone called it that, and it stuck, cause you see 2 white wires connected to the lamp holder.


Now that is a non compliant hookup.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

How so? one is a neutral, and the other white connected to the lamp holder should have black tape, but how often do you see it marked black?

A dead ended 3 way is probably the proper name.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

My question is WHY is an apprentice working on a box that has only been turned off by a 3-way switch????  That is just flat out careless.

What happened to turning off the breaker and checking for power before touching anything??


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

sounds like an illuminated switch to me. That is the voltage i got one time when i had a illuminated switch with no load on it. The load makes the circuit for the little lamp in the switch.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> We call it "cutting it into the neutral". maybe someone called it that, and it stuck, cause you see 2 white wires connected to the lamp holder.


That's called a "California Three-way" and it's not code legal. You are switching the neutral - verboten much.

Back to the original Q: So you put the three-way into the neutral position instead of turning off the circuit? I'd second the a)dimmer, b)lighted switch c) bad three-way ...in that order. Next time try turning the circuit off and see if the problem goes away. Better yet, turn off the circuit before you work on it and you'll (probably) never have this problem again.


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## That's It? (Aug 31, 2011)

Happened to me too recently. 3 way was underwater destroyed the guts of it. Obvious solution is have someone replace both the 3 ways. If it still happens dig deeper.


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## stars13bars2 (Jun 1, 2009)

What is much more common is that there was only a two wire cable run for the travelers and they picked up a neutral/grounded conductor from another convenient circuit, and if the other circuit had a load on it at the time, then the neutral/grounded conductor will bite you.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'm starting to think this should be a sticky. We get this one a lot.

-John


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

kbatku said:


> That's called a "California Three-way" and it's not code legal. You are switching the neutral - verboten much.
> 
> Back to the original Q: So you put the three-way into the neutral position instead of turning off the circuit? I'd second the a)dimmer, b)lighted switch c) bad three-way ...in that order. Next time try turning the circuit off and see if the problem goes away. Better yet, turn off the circuit before you work on it and you'll (probably) never have this problem again.


I could be wrong but I don't think it's a California 3-way. It's a dead end 3-way but instead of using the black in the dead end as the common they are using the white. The other white connected to the lamp is the neutral. It looks like it's cut into the neutral but it's actually not.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Aegis said:


> ...It's a dead end 3-way but instead of using the black in the dead end as the common they are using the white....


I know if you use two-wire cable for a switch leg, you've gotta feed power down on the white, and to the load on the black, just so it doesn't look like the fixture is wired with two neutrals.

-John


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Big John said:


> I know if you use two-wire cable for a switch leg, you've gotta feed power down on the white, and to the load on the black, just so it doesn't look like the fixture is wired with two neutrals.
> 
> -John


In the CEC if you use the white to feed the light from a switch leg or 3 way then you have to make it 'permanently unidentifiable' lol


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Going back to the OP, my vote goes for the lighted switch. You are getting the voltage through the little night light filament in the other 3-way switch. Curious about the "California 3-way." Here in the Washington, DC & Northern Virginia area, we have a lot of OLD houses with K&T or cloth-covered BX/romex. They often have what we call "Tennessee 3-ways" or "Lazy Susan 3-ways." Basically there is a hot & neutral at each of the 3-way switch locations. (same circuit) The hot and neutral go to the traveler screws of each 3-way switch. Then there is a single wire going from each switch box to the light, connected to the "common" screw. Light is on when it is getting a hot and a neutral. Flip one switch, and it is getting 2 hots and is off. Flip the other switch and it is getting 2 neutrals and is off. This is very confusing the first time you run into it! Not to mention dangerous! I have found another problem with this over the years that would otherwise go unnoticed. Some brands of 3-way switches don't actually break contact with one traveler before connecting to the other, causing a dead short on these "Tennessee" 3-ways


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Some older guys I worked with told me this is how it was done with knob & tube to run fewer wires and also the old romex was only available with 2 conductors!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> How so? one is a neutral, and the other white connected to the lamp holder should have black tape, but how often do you see it marked black?
> 
> A dead ended 3 way is probably the proper name.



Look at 200.7(C)(2) in the 2008 or 200.7(C)(1) in the 2011. The white wire may not be used as a return to the the light.


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Look at 200.7(C)(2) in the 2008 or 200.7(C)(1) in the 2011. The white wire may not be used as a return to the the light.


Can someone post the rule so I can read it? I want to compare it with the CEC.


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## Jono89 (Dec 21, 2011)

It was a lighted switch, thanks guys.


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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

Aegis said:


> Can someone post the rule so I can read it? I want to compare it with the CEC.


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