# How do tick testers actually work, and which situations are they not accurate in?



## black (Oct 12, 2011)

My boss told me that they are almost useless when it comes to knob and tube, though I am not sure why. I know they aren't accurate with MC, but they seem to work on leads that extend beyond the metal jacket. I have also heard that they aren't accurate if they have been sitting in the cold. What's the definitive word on this?


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Tic testers should never be relied on.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

If it tics, assume it's hot. If it doesn't tic, assume it's hot..

I can put any of the tic testers on the same wire 10 times and come up with many different results. I use it as a rule of thumb often to determine which wire is hot and neutral, even though it is certainly not always accurate with that either.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

If you use them long enough you start to understand them. Higher voltage say 277v you'll notice it starts going off before you touch the wire for example. In a 3 way system it seems to give some faulty readings.

I don't like it when people tell me their useless. That's people that haven't been doing it long enough. For example if your tester is working propery and you get no reading then the sh!t is dead. They say always test your tester on a known live circuit to determine if it's working propery. Then you can rub against your shirt and the static electrcicty will make it go off letting you know it's working.

In a j box with multiple circuits it's going to be somewhat unreliable but if there is enough wire you can usually pull the wire your testing far enough from the others to not pick up a reading from the other circuits.

Again you have to know when you can trust or not. Another example is if your flipping the breaker and it's going off and on as your flipping the breaker then you can be pretty sure that's it. oF COURSE YOU STILL TREAT EVERYTHING AS IF IT'S HOT JUST OUTA COMMON PRACTICE. (oops on the caps)

My fav use of the tic tester I posted in the tips and tricks thread is set it to beep beep and put it on a circuit (in a house not commercial) set your walkie talkie next to it. Go to the panel with your other walkie talkie and flip the breakers till you hear it go off. Ta da you got the circuit.

It's a useful tool.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

The only thing a heat pen should tell you is you need to put a real meter on it. You can't trust your life on it that's for sure


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

cultch said:


> My fav use of the tic tester I posted in the tips and tricks thread is set it to beep beep and put it on a circuit (in a house not commercial) set your walkie talkie next to it. Go to the panel with your other walkie talkie and flip the breakers till you hear it go off. Ta da you got the circuit.


Or it moved....:whistling2:

A tic tester is only good for a general idea. All readings should be double checked with a real tester.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I've become pretty confident in my Fluke LVD2.










But I've been made a fool too many times on other brands non contact testers to no longer absolutely trust a *no voltage* reading.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

They are good for identifying a switch leg or finding a circuit on a particular breaker but only if you can control it imo. Definitely not something you want to trust 100% and use as your only testing method.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> Or it moved....:whistling2:
> 
> A tic tester is only good for a general idea. All readings should be double checked with a real tester.


Well of course if you can get a real tester on it you should use the real tester. There are times when you can't do that tho (not readily anyway).

Like I said once you master the tic tester and it's ups and downs it's a useful tool.

or it moved...again that could happen but if you hit the breaker on and the tester goes on then you hit the breaker off and the tester goes off...ya gotta have some common sense you know that.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have a tic tracer, knopp tester, and a few multimeters. They have their place and I will likely always have one.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I have found using a NCVS on UF to usually be a FALSE negative.... Blew up 1 pair of ***** the first time, never again.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I have found using a NCVS on UF to usually be a FALSE negative.... Blew up 1 pair of ***** the first time, never again.


Wouldn't trust it on UF. romex and thhn only. Again if you never use your tic tester your not using a very useful tool.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Good for reading Romex in an attic or pulling out a device to swap out. Not for tracing out a circuit. If there is a loose neutral the tic tracer will still chirp indicating voltage (but not 120)


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I love hearing morons spout off about how "useless" these are when I go to their pouch and find a $9 Gardener Bender or Greenlee model, covered in dust with nearly dead batteries. 

The one I use, made by Fluke, has never let me down. I always use it with a proper test method (live, dead, live) and carry a 337 if ever I'm unsure. The tick tester leaves me 99.8% sure that whatever I'm dealing with is dead, and I'll handle it as if it were live regardless.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

jza said:


> I love hearing morons spout off about how "useless" these are when I go to their pouch and find a $9 Gardener Bender or Greenlee model, covered in dust with nearly dead batteries.
> 
> The one I use, made by Fluke, has never let me down. I always use it with a proper test method (live, dead, live) and carry a 337 if ever I'm unsure. The tick tester leaves me 99.8% sure that whatever I'm dealing with is dead, and I'll handle it as if it were live regardless.


Atta boy JZ


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I work with a guy who refuses to use my Fluke LVD2. Says he doesn't trust it, it's not a real tester, etc.. Instead, he'll dig this $60 gem out from the bottom of his pouch, blow the dust off, and test with "confidence".










No thanks. The real kicker is, guess who blows more holes in their pliers between the two of us? Not me.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Deep Cover said:


> Tic testers should never be relied on.


A competent, trained professional who understands their limitations can rely on a NCV tester. :thumbsup:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah I've used greenlee's and kleins.. but those Fluke LVD2's are by far the best and worth the higher price. They have an LED flashlight built in (use it all the time) and are very reliable in sensing.


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

I agree, but they can be used as a tool. Not a definitive indicator, but a tool.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

black said:


> I agree, but they can be used as a tool. Not a definitive indicator, but a tool.


Most definitely. A very often used tool.
I haven't noticed much of a difference in performance in hot vs cold, unless he just means the batteries.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Rule # 1: 
there is no tester that you should trust your life with without performing 
"live-dead-live" prior to handling the conductors. If you do, you will get shocked. It's on you to protect your life. 


I have couple of decent testers that have a push button "lock" on the face that has got me in trouble more than once because I did not follow rule #1.


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## oldblue (Mar 2, 2013)

My Milwaukee tester seems to have the opposite problem. Almost never reads dead when its live but lights up on ghost voltage a lot. One time it wouldn't register on a thickly insulated old cloth wire. 

Mostly use it to get a half-assed idea of whats going then break out the real meter before I get down and dirty. Usually as I lost a new pair of linemans on the one above.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

How they work

http://ecmweb.com/content/what-do-you-know-about-capacitive-voltage-sensors


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Flir just came out with a pretty sharp looking ncvt. It's got a flashlight on it too


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Flir just came out with a pretty sharp looking ncvt. It's got a flashlight on it too


It's cheaper than the Fluke LVD2 that always break too after the lightest of drops (hopefully not as sensitive). And it is waterproof. I have a feeling that will replace my cheap milwaukees (that also always break, but the button is what breaks on these). That is now on my list, thanks for posting!


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Flir just came out with a pretty sharp looking ncvt. It's got a flashlight on it too


If it's anything like the Extech version I would stay far far far away.

As far as I'm concerned there's only one name in test equipment worth buying. 



oldblue said:


> My Milwaukee tester seems to have the opposite problem. Almost never reads dead when its live but lights up on ghost voltage a lot. One time it wouldn't register on a thickly insulated old cloth wire.
> 
> Mostly use it to get a half-assed idea of whats going then break out the real meter before I get down and dirty. Usually as I lost a new pair of linemans on the one above.


What did you expect? You bought a tester from a company that makes drills and sawzalls.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Deep Cover said:


> Tic testers should never be relied on.


 
I agree. Of course, now these are available. We are installing a bunch of them in MCC's. I don't like them at all.

http://graceport.com/prod_checkvolt.cfm


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

sparky970 said:


> I agree. Of course, now these are available. We are installing a bunch of them in MCC's. I don't like them at all. http://graceport.com/prod_checkvolt.cfm















It's on a lot of our newer stuff. I don't really see a point to it


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

The only thing a Greenlee will tell you is if the battery is still good.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sparky970 said:


> ...Of course, now these are available. We are installing a bunch of them in MCC's. I don't like them at all....


 Agreed. I really don't understand the point of them: They don't satisfy the requirements for absence-of-voltage verification, and if someone isn't qualified to safely confirm absence-of-voltage, they have no business going in the equipment.

As far as tic testers go, I love them, and use them all the time. They are the simplest way to do a live-dead-live test.

There smart people on these boards who disagree with the position of using them for voltage safety checks, but I'm 100% comfortable with them. I've never had one lie to me when used carefully.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

TOOL_5150 said:


> I have found using a NCVS on UF to usually be a FALSE negative.... Blew up 1 pair of ***** the first time, never again.





cultch said:


> Wouldn't trust it on UF. romex and thhn only. Again if you never use your tic tester your not using a very useful tool.


I use them to identify a specific circuit in a crawl space or attic. Fairly useful tool IF you know how to use it properly.

Proper use includes several "on" and "off" cycles to verify the circuit. 2 guys with 2-way radios helps as well. :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

black said:


> My boss told me that they are almost useless when it comes to knob and tube, though I am not sure why. I know they aren't accurate with MC, but they seem to work on leads that extend beyond the metal jacket. I have also heard that they aren't accurate if they have been sitting in the cold. What's the definitive word on this?


Your boss is wrong on the K&T.,the tic is the best tool for finding the neutral in those systems.

Like the others said always back yourself up with a good meter , and only buy the top of the line,tic's and meters.

Hell they beat testing with your fingers....:laughing:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> View attachment 34538
> View attachment 34539
> It's on a lot of our newer stuff. I don't really see a point to it


 
I like the lights but not the voltage portals.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Your boss is wrong on the K&T.,the tic is the best tool for finding the neutral in those systems.
> 
> Like the others said always back yourself up with a good meter , and only buy the top of the line,tic's and meters.
> 
> Hell they beat testing with your fingers....:laughing:


Well put Harry:thumbsup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

cultch said:


> Well put Harry:thumbsup:


My thanks button is gone,Thanks button pressed....:laughing:


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

I do not use those testers and recommend not to use them to any electrician.

I will tell you a little trick I've learned over the years with my Fluke digital multimeters. You can put the Fluke in audio/ohm mode and connect the leads to the hot and neutral of a 120v circuit. A hot open or closed circuit will generate a audio _pulsating_ beep. A dead open circuit will generate no audio and a dead closed circuit will generate a continuous beeping noise, not pulsating.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

ablyss said:


> I do not use those testers and recommend not to use them to any electrician.
> 
> I will tell you a little trick I've learned over the years with my Fluke digital multimeters. You can put the Fluke in audio/ohm mode and connect the leads to the hot and neutral of a 120v circuit. A hot open or closed circuit will generate a audio _pulsating_ beep. A dead open circuit will generate no audio and a dead closed circuit will generate a continuous beeping noise, not pulsating.


If you can get to the box and get your testers on the copper or alum. than you use your regular meter...no brainer.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

cultch said:


> If you can get to the box and get your testers on the copper or alum. than you use your regular meter...no brainer.


My regular meter is the Fluke clamp on 375. But the point was to demonstrate a technique for detecting a live circuit via the audio pulsating beep in case you're by yourself and need to turn the breaker off.

Edit: 375 not 175


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## black (Oct 12, 2011)

wildleg said:


> Rule # 1:
> there is no tester that you should trust your life with without performing
> "live-dead-live" prior to handling the conductors. If you do, you will get shocked. It's on you to protect your life.
> 
> ...


So you place it on something live, then something dead, and then the same live thing again prior to testing the wire in question? I was just taught to hold it to a known live wire.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

black said:


> So you place it on something live, then something dead, and then the same live thing again prior to testing the wire in question? I was just taught to hold it to a known live wire.


When plausible you hit the breaker off and watch your tic tester go dead then you hit the breaker on and watch your tester light up then repeat to be sure. Walkie talkies can be your friend when doing the type of work it sounds like your doing.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

black said:


> So you place it on something live, then something dead, and then the same live thing again prior to testing the wire in question...?


 You're confirming the tester against a known live source, you're checking the source that you believe to be dead, then you're re-checking a known live source to be sure the tester still works.

You're supposed to do a live-dead-live literally any time you check for voltage. Nobody does it with meters or wiggys. It's easy-as-pie to do it with a non-contact because static will trigger it, so all you have to do is rub it on your shirt or hair.

That's always my argument in favor of non-contacts: Multimeters are not infallible. I've had testers fail before, and I've seen a whole lot of user error with DMMs that led someone to believe there was no voltage. If you're not doing a live-dead-live you can't be certain you're safe.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> I do not use those testers and recommend not to use them to any electrician.
> 
> I will tell you a little trick I've learned over the years with my Fluke digital multimeters. You can put the Fluke in audio/ohm mode and connect the leads to the hot and neutral of a 120v circuit. A hot open or closed circuit will generate a audio _pulsating_ beep. A dead open circuit will generate no audio and a dead closed circuit will generate a continuous beeping noise, not pulsating.


So you won't use a non contact tester but you'll put your meter, set to read ohms, across a live and neutral?

Okay then.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

About 10 years ago they had a notice come out that a NM cable could show a false negative. Flooded houses that had NM paper soaked would read dead but was still hot.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

We call them idiot sticks.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

drsparky said:


> About 10 years ago they had a notice come out that a NM cable could show a false negative. Flooded houses that had NM paper soaked would read dead but was still hot.


 Yep. They won't work where there is a cancelled or static electric field:


Wet cable filler or sheathing
Metallic cabling or conduit
Shielded cable
Twisted cable
Direct current


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

If a receptacle is wired correctly and you stick it in the neutral slot and it glows, you have an open neutral.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

going back to the post about k&t wiring, i have a g/b tracer that will follow a k&t wire from 12- 18 inches away, more if its faulted! found this out by accident


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## Nuzzie (Jan 11, 2012)

I can't remember the situation, but our tutor showed us something where when the circuit was live the tic tester showed nothing, and when it was dead it started beeping at you.

Think it might've been fed through an isolation transformer or something? don't really remember.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

eejack said:


> We call them idiot sticks.


Then I'm an idiot.


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Loose Neutral said:


> If a receptacle is wired correctly and you stick it in the neutral slot and it glows, you have an open neutral.


Or it's picking up the hot...:whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

From the manual for a Fluke LVD2. I don't think I have ever seen the wording that I have shown in red before.


> ●● When using the Tester, if tip does not glow, voltage could still be present.
> The Tester indicates active voltage in the presence of electrostatic fields of
> sufficient strength generated from the source (MAINS) voltage. If the field
> strength is low, the Tester may not provide indication of live voltages. Lack of
> ...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The OP asked about Tick (TIC Tracers?) if indeed this is what he is asking about they better be reliable, we use them to test medium voltage systems prior to servicing. 

BUT as with any tester always test your tester, always know what you are doing.

http://ecmweb.com/content/what-do-you-know-about-capacitive-voltage-sensors

Tic Tracer

http://www.amprobe.com/amprobe/usen...e-test---tic-tracer/tic-300-pro.htm?PID=73374

FROM THE EC&M Article linked above

The main advantages of the capacitive voltage tester are its speed, convenience, and ease of use. In these categories, it's hard to beat. But that doesn't mean standard safety precautions don't apply. It's crucial that you follow these recommendations when using the device.

Always test the sensor on a known live voltage before proceeding with your test. This will confirm the battery is good and the sensor is operating properly. There should be no exceptions to this rule. In fact, good practice recommends you first verify the unit is working on a known live source, then make your test, and then recheck the tester against a known live source.

Use the sensor to check AC circuits only.

Be aware that live voltage won't be sensed inside any effectively grounded enclosure or conduit. The converse of this statement is that a metal enclosure that should be grounded but isn't will activate the sensor.

Use a minimum IEC 1010-1, CAT III-600V rated device when taking measurements around 3-phase circuits. Some newer models have CAT IV-1,000V ratings.

Be aware of the minimum sensing threshold of the device. Some sensors state clearly on the packaging and the device itself that its range is 90V to 600V. Since OSHA defines hazardous voltage as greater than 30V, it's possible those hazardous voltages in the 30V to 90V range won't be detected. Fortunately, voltages in this range are unlikely, as no nominal voltages exist in this range. One reason for the 90V threshold is that de-sensitizing the device tends to prolong battery life. Also, a lower voltage threshold would cause too many “nuisance” indications.

*Make sure you're reasonably well grounded and isolated from the cable or piece of equipment you're testing. With no difference in potential between you and the object you're testing, there's no chance the tester will work as designed.*

In some cases, the tester may falsely indicate live voltage on a low-voltage conductor due to the proximity of a nearby high-voltage conductor such as an overhead line. When in doubt, use a different test method on the low-voltage circuit.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

On old knob and tube houses , I can make my volt tic tracers ring a constant just by pushing the button (or whatever turns them on) and holding the thing next to a door or a wall or someplace. But knob and tube is a safe wiring method, the safest, I read that here so it must be true. 



Anyway, I use em all the time. It just takes a good electrician to know how, the crybaby's are in the second catagory.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> View attachment 34538
> View attachment 34539
> It's on a lot of our newer stuff. I don't really see a point to it


I must be an idiot. what's with the +/- on ea leg. is this DC ?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

wildleg said:


> ...What's with the +/- on ea leg. is this DC ?


 It is. Only one of the the lamps would light to show conductor polarity.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> > ●● Using the Tester while attached to any metal object could lead to electric shock or personal injury.


 I've never seen that in the instructions, but that's common training for using the MV variety: Treat the tester like it's conductive.

I've seen a the results of a flashover that occurred exactly because someone ignored that: The guy poked the tester into a recess insulator and it bridged the gap between the 15kV conductor and the grounded edge of the cabinet where the insulator was mounted. The current tracked over the tic tester itself.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

wildleg said:


> I must be an idiot. what's with the +/- on ea leg. is this DC ?


 what he said


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

99cents said:


> Then I'm an idiot.


Only if you trust it.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Big John said:


> I've never seen that in the instructions, but that's common training for using the MV variety: Treat the tester like it's conductive.
> 
> ...


I read that as saying you should not be touching any metal object when using the tester, but if you don't have some connection to ground a false negative is much more likely. 

One brand says not to trust it if you are on a ladder.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm sure using an_ idiot stick_ while dancing the macarena or performing pantomime will be met will equal disclaimers should the body count follow suit

but i digress

Idiot sticks (love that fellas:thumbsup operate on the theory of capacitance coupling (per Brians post info) , evident in their apparent sensitivity while one is _physically_ holding one.

And the OP has it backwards, they work great K&T, lousy with BX

Now speaking as one who can't get away from K&T, because my state is lousy with it to the point where i count knobs instead of sheep for insomnia, and you'll probably all have 'Jestons flying workvans' before we're rid of it....you can't do a K&T job w/o an idiot stick

Go ahead and try....

Better yet, _hypothetically_ try

You've got 8 K&T wires in a box, no ground (and nothing to ground to), all colored grey

which is the feed? sw leg? 

~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The only alternative to that is the long extension cord plugged into something you know is done right and the wiggy.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_ aaaacccck! _

you gave it away ......you....you....you....

_cowhampshireite! _ :jester:

~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Moo.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

jza said:


> So you won't use a non contact tester but you'll put your meter, set to read ohms, across a live and neutral?
> 
> Okay then.


It'll go beep beep beep !


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> It'll go beep beep beep !


Sounds very accurate.

I'm certainly going to try this sometime soon. I'll also put it on amperes and see what it does.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> I have a tic tracer, knopp tester, and a few multimeters. They have their place and I will likely always have one.


I thought we were talking about tic tracers, then I read posts referring to non contact detectors. I have been using the NC detectors for many years, rule of thumb for me is test my arm, then the wire then test my arm again to make sure it's working. 

Tic tracer is a whole nother animal.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

jza said:


> Sounds very accurate.
> 
> I'm certainly going to try this sometime soon. I'll also put it on amperes and see what it does.


I'm so glad you approve of my technique. Your amp tester ideas are truly inspiring and masterful.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Non contact tester whatever, figured it was the same thing. Using Milwaukee one at the moment. Fluke one looks good too.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> I'm so glad you approve of my technique. Your amp tester ideas are truly inspiring and masterful.


Whatever you do don't use a quality non contact tester designed exactly for that purpose. Instead, use another meter in a way that it was never intended to be used. This is a much safer method and it's the only way true electrician's test for voltage. BEEEP BEEEP BEEEEP.

Hey I just don't trust non contact testers. But my MacGyver'd multimeter trick that I probably came up with after having one too many is fool proof!


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

jza said:


> Whatever you do don't use a quality non contact tester designed exactly for that purpose. Instead, use another meter in a way that it was never intended to be used. This is a much safer method and it's the only way true electrician's test for voltage. BEEEP BEEEP BEEEEP.
> 
> Hey I just don't trust non contact testers. But my MacGyver'd multimeter trick that I probably came up with after having one too many is fool proof!


Quality non contact tester... ho hum. I'd assume correct that you'd not used a digital meter a lot. If you did you'd understand what all it does. But hey, no big deal. You can flip out your non contact test any old time... a lot of good electricians do.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ablyss said:


> ...You can flip out your non contact test any old time... a lot of good electricians do.


 Agreed. Arguing about the type of tester a person should use is like arguing that everyone should drive either minivans or 4x4 pickups.

Use the second-best tool to accomplish a task, and use your first-best tool to figure out what that should be.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Big John said:


> everyone should drive either minivans or 4x4 pickups.


Not either, both!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Can't make it through most Dunkin's drive throughs with that.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Can't make it through most Dunkin's drive throughs with that.


Damn straight. That is a requirement for purchasing a work vehicle here. :laughing:

I'm back to loving my NC tester. Great on demo now that I have a pair of demo Klein pliers after blowing them up. :laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Can't go through many with my Sprinter either. You learn which ones and which ones have lanes just wide enough to not hit the overhang.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> I thought we were talking about tic tracers, ...
> Tic tracer is a whole nother animal.


The Tic Tracer I had was a non-contact voltage tester...it was one of the first non-contact voltage testers.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I see the difference now. Thanks.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> Quality non contact tester... ho hum. I'd assume correct that you'd not used a digital meter a lot. If you did you'd understand what all it does. But hey, no big deal. You can flip out your non contact test any old time... a lot of good electricians do.


Straight from the Fluke manual for a 117 multimeter.



> To avoid electric shock, injury, or damage to the Meter, disconnect circuit power and discharge all high-voltage capacitors before testing resistance, continuity, diodes, or capacitance.



Great idea you had though. Glad I didn't do my apprenticeship under you.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> I do not use those testers and recommend not to use them to any electrician.
> 
> I will tell you a little trick I've learned over the years with my Fluke digital multimeters. You can put the Fluke in audio/ohm mode and connect the leads to the hot and neutral of a 120v circuit. A hot open or closed circuit will generate a audio _pulsating_ beep. A dead open circuit will generate no audio and a dead closed circuit will generate a continuous beeping noise, not pulsating.


Let me get this straight. One device is developed, tested and approved to be used for an exact purpose. The other was never intended, tested or approved to be used to test voltage in the resistance or continuity setting. Furthermore, it's specifically stated to NOT use it as such, yet you continue to do it regardless and brag about it online?


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

black said:


> My boss told me that they are almost useless when it comes to knob and tube, though I am not sure why. I know they aren't accurate with MC, but they seem to work on leads that extend beyond the metal jacket. I have also heard that they aren't accurate if they have been sitting in the cold. What's the definitive word on this?


I think noncontact testers definitely have their uses; they can be a great tool in especially in cases where there are no exposed energized parts, but for low voltage before touching exposed conductors/components with bare hands I always use my DMM. 

It’s *VERY* important people read and comprehend the user’s manual so they understand how their NCT works and it’s limitations.




sparky970 said:


> I agree. Of course, now these are available. We are installing a bunch of them in MCC's. I don't like them at all.
> 
> http://graceport.com/prod_checkvolt.cfm


I've seen those; we don't use them, and I'm not really a fan. I think the UPA-100 power alert is just a fancy idiot light. GracePort did come out with the panel mounted units with the voltage portals so that the device could meet the requirement for live-dead-live testing using a NCT; however, if following the six step procedure for establishing an electrically safe work condition in 70E, they still have a problem meeting the requirement to test phase-to-phase and phase-to-ground… I would never use them for the sole verification of de-energization.

However, perhaps they could be beneficial if used as part of an arc flash risk assessment? It’s a pain gearing up just to verify something is off. For example, you open disconnecting device for an HRC2 panel but the panel must be treated as energized until verified as de-energized, so you _still_ have to don PPE to open the door and check for voltage. What if your company’s electrical safety program authorized the Graceport PESD to signify a reduction in arc flash probability due to the fact the panel is likely de-energized and therefore permit a reduction in PPE for the task of verification of de-energization?


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

jza said:


> Straight from the Fluke manual for a 117 multimeter.





> To avoid electric shock, injury, or damage to the Meter, disconnect circuit power and discharge all high-voltage capacitors before testing resistance, continuity, diodes, or capacitance.


You seem like a smart kid, and I'm glad you found this excerpt from the fluke manual. The keyword however is capacitor. Most digital meters will function correctly at ~1000V or less, but high-volt capacitors can store up to 20,000V or more. So this warning from fluke is more on the lines of turning off the power and discharging the capacitors before proceeding. It has nothing to with what I said which is reading nominal ~120V to neutral and listening to the audio tone pulsating. Why is this not listed as a secondary feature is probably a liability reason on Flukes behalf. 


> Great idea you had though. Glad I didn't do my apprenticeship under you.


You learn from other's mistakes. Don't be so quick to judge others. We all make mistakes.




jza said:


> Let me get this straight. One device is developed, tested and approved to be used for an exact purpose. The other was never intended, tested or approved to be used to test voltage in the resistance or continuity setting. Furthermore, it's specifically stated to NOT use it as such, yet you continue to do it regardless and brag about it online?


I'm sorry if I bragged a little. I didn't mean to. I'm just here to help out and learn from others.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Michigan Master said:


> I think noncontact testers definitely have their uses; they can be a great tool in especially in cases where there are no exposed energized parts, but for low voltage before touching exposed conductors/components with bare hands I always use my DMM. It&#146;s VERY important people read and comprehend the user&#146;s manual so they understand how their NCT works and it&#146;s limitations. I've seen those; we don't use them, and I'm not really a fan. I think the UPA-100 power alert is just a fancy idiot light. GracePort did come out with the panel mounted units with the voltage portals so that the device could meet the requirement for live-dead-live testing using a NCT; however, if following the six step procedure for establishing an electrically safe work condition in 70E, they still have a problem meeting the requirement to test phase-to-phase and phase-to-ground&#133; I would never use them for the sole verification of de-energization. However, perhaps they could be beneficial if used as part of an arc flash risk assessment? It&#146;s a pain gearing up just to verify something is off. For example, you open disconnecting device for an HRC2 panel but the panel must be treated as energized until verified as de-energized, so you still have to don PPE to open the door and check for voltage. What if your company&#146;s electrical safety program authorized the Graceport PESD to signify a reduction in arc flash probability due to the fact the panel is likely de-energized and therefore permit a reduction in PPE for the task of verification of de-energization?


You can't use these as part of a napa 70e program to establish an electrically safe condition. You still need to gear up to the hrc rating of the panel, and verify absence of voltage. It is a pain in the butt, but it is what it is.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

ablyss said:


> You seem like a smart kid, and I'm glad you found this excerpt from the fluke manual. The keyword however is capacitor. Most digital meters will function correctly at ~1000V or less, but high-volt capacitors can store up to 20,000V or more. So this warning from fluke is more on the lines of turning off the power and discharging the capacitors before proceeding. It has nothing to with what I said which is reading nominal ~120V to neutral and listening to the audio tone pulsating. Why is this not listed as a secondary feature is probably a liability reason on Flukes behalf.
> 
> You learn from other's mistakes. Don't be so quick to judge others. We all make mistakes.
> 
> ...


Word for word is says to disconnect circuit power, and discharge all capacitors. If you want to ignore that and push your own agenda, so be it.

I'll go as far as to say that the beeping you're hearing is a safety feature built into the meter telling you to stop what the hell you're doing.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

2dogs said:


> You can't use these as part of a napa 70e program to establish an electrically safe condition. You still need to gear up to the hrc rating of the panel, and verify absence of voltage. It is a pain in the butt, but it is what it is.


I said I'd never use them for the sole verification of de-energization.

What I'm talking about is the possibility of using them as part of the arc flash *risk assessment*, which is completely different than the *hazard assessment*. Otherwise I think the GracePort PESD is pointless.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

Michigan Master said:


> I said I'd never use them for the sole verification of de-energization. What I'm talking about is the possibility of using them as part of the arc flash risk assessment, which is completely different than the hazard assessment. Otherwise I think the GracePort PESD is pointless.



You didn't have to yell!


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Just trying to clarify what I meant; apparently I wasn't too clear in my original post. I apologize if I came across as yelling.

You understand what I was trying to say now though? The GracePort PESD could possibly be used to pre-verify (not as final verification). The same hazard is present until an electrically safe work condition has been established, but a lower risk may permit reduced PPE in some situations (70E Annex F).

As I said, we don't use these devices; this is just the only benefit I can potentially see them providing; and it would required further evaluation and refinement before implementation, and must be formally included in the company's ESP.


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## Joe Jordan (Dec 4, 2013)

cultch said:


> My fav use of the tic tester I posted in the tips and tricks thread is set it to beep beep and put it on a circuit (in a house not commercial) set your walkie talkie next to it. Go to the panel with your other walkie talkie and flip the breakers till you hear it go off. Ta da you got the circuit.
> 
> It's a useful tool.


I did this yesterday in my house using baby monitors. The transmitter is plugged into a receptacle to identify. When breakers are flicked on and off, the circuit is identified when the receiver goes static and then back to a signal. (It worked in a pinch). I need to get walkie talkies lol.


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## sporky (Jan 5, 2014)

I use the hell out of mine. But you have to buy a good one. Avoid the GB and other junk. I am using a Klein now. Very reliable. Can false positive but never false negative. Always test on working circuit to confirm operation first. All these will sometimes false positive on ungrounded circuits. Maybe that is what he is taking about with knob and tube. I see it happen a lot with handyman wire jobs where they treat the ground as "optional".


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