# Ground as neutral



## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

I recently got a call to troubleshoot a kitchen light. After some time I finally determined it was a lost neutral. Everything else on circuit was working properly. It was just the one light controlled by 3-ways not working. It was getting late so I just used the ground as a neutral to get there light on. I have since been back and fixed it properly. But my questions is this what are your opinions on using a ground as a neutral in a no way around it situation or to prevent arc fault tripping. Any one ever do it as a last case scenario. What's your honest experience and opinions????Thanks


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

brady.electric said:


> I recently got a call to troubleshoot a kitchen light. After some time I finally determined it was a lost neutral. Everything else on circuit was working properly. It was just the one light controlled by 3-ways not working. It was getting late so I just used the ground as a neutral to get there light on. I have since been back and fixed it properly. But my questions is this what are your opinions on using a ground as a neutral in a no way around it situation or to prevent arc fault tripping. Any one ever do it as a last case scenario. What's your honest experience and opinions????Thanks


Using a ground as a neutral is a big :no::no: And as for using it to prevent ark fault tripping, I would believe that would make it trip immediately. What if you forget to go back and some poor schlub adds onto it as a ground and gets lit up?


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

It would def prevent an arc fault from tripping if u grabbed a neutral off an arcfault circuit unknowingly it would trip because of a shared neutral. I'm not talking about feeding off it or for receptacles I am simply saying for one light nothing else


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

I absolutely agree it's a huge no no and unsafe. But it was a last case scenario and it was only to get one single light working in a pinch and I had no alternative around it without trashing someone's house I would prob think about doing it and maybe label it accordingly. That's what I'm asking your thoughts and opinions on just to do it for one light only


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I'll turn it around, it was only one light, why do something unsafe to get by?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

I would rather leave with the light not working rather than use the grounding conductor as a grounded conductor. Your issue is with the light prior to the said light on the same switch leg.


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## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

I've seen plenty of wall occupancy sensors and lighted switches that use the ground as a neutral since most people never pull neutrals to switches. Even with the new code update that requires it in some cases.

I've gotten a couple of zaps when troubleshooting a motion sensor or a light on a motion sensor isn't working. Often, the ground wire is broken somewhere. I get a super surprising shock out of the ground since I wasn't expecting it, not too fun... I can't imagine the surprise on my face when getting a zap off the load side of a lighting circuit on a ground wire.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it's totally fine. It's way harder to start an electrical fire than you all think and a little current on 20' of bare conductor is not going to hurt anything. The real disservice here would be to pull a permit, tear open the wall, rewire it all and charge a ridiculous amount of money.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

icemanjc said:


> I've seen plenty of wall occupancy sensors and lighted switches that use the ground as a neutral since most people never pull neutrals to switches. Even with the new code update that requires it in some cases. I've gotten a couple of zaps when troubleshooting a motion sensor or a light on a motion sensor isn't working. Often, the ground wire is broken somewhere. I get a super surprising shock out of the ground since I wasn't expecting it, not too fun... I can't imagine the surprise on my face when getting a zap off the load side of a lighting circuit on a ground wire.


I think he was talking the light not the switch.


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

Hypothetical::: only one light in room on 3 way neutral present at switch location lost neutral between switch and single light....nowhere close to fish new neutral....what would you do HONESTLY.....no one is there but you. That's my question. We all know the right thing to do....I ask because it def cross my mind and if I didn't have something close to fish new neutral and it would have required a bunch of damage to do I prob would have done it and felt ok with it only because it was just one light. Just being honest!!!


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I think it's totally fine. It's way harder to start an electrical fire than you all think and a little current on 20' of bare conductor is not going to hurt anything. The real disservice here would be to pull a permit, tear open the wall, rewire it all and charge a ridiculous amount of money.


So in your opinion, the OP lost out on a lot of money?


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

brady.electric said:


> Hypothetical::: only one light in room on 3 way neutral present at switch location lost neutral between switch and single light....nowhere close to fish new neutral....what would you do HONESTLY.....no one is there but you. That's my question. We all know the right thing to do....I ask because it def cross my mind and if I didn't have something close to fish new neutral and it would have required a bunch of damage to do I prob would have done it and felt ok with it only because it was just one light. Just being honest!!! Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


It's not just one light... Once you put 'lectric on that ground wire it's going to be sitting on everything bonded in the area looking for a parallel path. 

Not only is it the wrong thing to do legally, it's the wrong thing to do ethically. 

-1 for trolling.


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

PONYBOY...that is exactly what I'm trying to get at here. I honestly would do it if there wasn't another option. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this site and have learned a lot and have interacted with some very knowledgeable people but the general theme always seems to be no one EVER cuts a corner when in a certain circumstance where not much else can be done. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure there's not a person on this site who hasn't cut a corner or done stuff not totally by the book at one time. And yes you are right it is very hard to start an electrical fire. Using a ground as a neutral will not do that. Potentially shock someone yes. This post was about a residential kitchen light what's the worst shock your gonna get??!!?? Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!! So everyone that says they would never do it please explain to me reasons why other than it's against code or it's not the right way to do it


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> So in your opinion, the OP lost out on a lot of money?


Shít man I don't know. I'm just trying to rack up reward points


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Shít man I don't know. I'm just trying to rack up reward points


:laughing: :laughing:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

brady.electric said:


> PONYBOY...that is exactly what I'm trying to get at here. I honestly would do it if there wasn't another option. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this site and have learned a lot and have interacted with some very knowledgeable people but the general theme always seems to be no one EVER cuts a corner when in a certain circumstance where not much else can be done. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure there's not a person on this site who hasn't cut a corner or done stuff not totally by the book at one time. And yes you are right it is very hard to start an electrical fire. Using a ground as a neutral will not do that. Potentially shock someone yes. This post was about a residential kitchen light what's the worst shock your gonna get??!!?? *Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!!* So everyone that says they would never do it please explain to me reasons why other than it's against code or it's not the right way to do it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


You really never know....

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f12/electrician-death-72640/#post1348239


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

Never wanna hear it read something like that very sad. Working in a panel I could understand it's the load and amperage that will get you not the voltage. Sad stuff none the less 


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## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

backstay said:


> I think he was talking the light not the switch.


Yah, I got what he was saying. I was just saying it sucked to get zapped off a ground wire that had a load from just a small light switch. Thus it would probably would be much more of a surprise if you got a nice zap off a full size light fixture on a ground wire!

:thumbup:



brady.electric said:


> PONYBOY...that is exactly what I'm trying to get at here. I honestly would do it if there wasn't another option. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this site and have learned a lot and have interacted with some very knowledgeable people but the general theme always seems to be no one EVER cuts a corner when in a certain circumstance where not much else can be done. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure there's not a person on this site who hasn't cut a corner or done stuff not totally by the book at one time. And yes you are right it is very hard to start an electrical fire. Using a ground as a neutral will not do that. Potentially shock someone yes. This post was about a residential kitchen light what's the worst shock your gonna get??!!?? Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!! So everyone that says they would never do it please explain to me reasons why other than it's against code or it's not the right way to do it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com



Everyone on here does crazy stuff! Just check out this thread:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/illegal-things-you-do-72621/


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## tesco (Feb 17, 2012)

brady.electric said:


> PONYBOY...that is exactly what I'm trying to get at here. I honestly would do it if there wasn't another option. Don't get me wrong I enjoy this site and have learned a lot and have interacted with some very knowledgeable people but the general theme always seems to be no one EVER cuts a corner when in a certain circumstance where not much else can be done. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure there's not a person on this site who hasn't cut a corner or done stuff not totally by the book at one time. And yes you are right it is very hard to start an electrical fire. Using a ground as a neutral will not do that. Potentially shock someone yes. This post was about a residential kitchen light what's the worst shock your gonna get??!!?? Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!! So everyone that says they would never do it please explain to me reasons why other than it's against code or it's not the right way to do it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


In that hypothetical situation, I would _consider_ taping the ground wire white _at both ends_, isolating it from the box _at both ends_, and using it as a neutral. I wouldn't feel good about it though. :whistling2:


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

brady.electric said:


> Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


This statement has got to be one of the most ignorant I have ever read of that a professional with proper training of how to avoid an electrical shock would deliberately do just that because the person didn't feel like getting his DMM. Are you for real or was that an attempted funny?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

MXer774 said:


> This statement has got to be one of the most ignorant I have ever read of that a professional with proper training of how to avoid an electrical shock would deliberately do just that because the person didn't feel like getting his DMM. Are you for real or was that an attempted funny?


Oh my god


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## Miller6386 (Apr 6, 2014)

How about when the power company pulls in 220 with a ground only? If they can supply a building with just a ground why is it taboo to have a ground and neutral all on the same bar in the panel? 

Telecommunicated


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

Dude let me guess you wear a hard hat your glasses and rubber gloves just in case you get an arc flash whole changing an outlet in a house. Yea I was being serious. An old timer used to do that I worked under and I followed suit. He was one of the sharpest electricians I have ever meant and is now an inspector for 2 states and has all sorts of awards and credentials and goes all over the country speaking at different seminars. But I guess he's ignorant??? Hahaha


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

Na, I don't take it to that extreme, but I wouldn't take intentional zaps in place of at least a NC pen.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brady.electric said:


> Potentially shock someone yes. This post was about a residential kitchen light what's the worst shock your gonna get??!!?? Sometimes if I don't feel like walking to my truck I will just touch wires with my fingers to see if they're hot certainly not gonna kill me!!!


The worst shock your gonna get is a fatal one! Do you really not believe that 120 volts won't kill you? That's a comment a plumber would make, not an electrician.

Give me an example of a residential kitchen light that is so important, it has to be on for a night. 

Also, you say you've since been back and fixed it. What did you do that couldn't be done the first time? Would a second trip not cost the customer more?


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

It's not the voltage that will kill you!!!!its the load. 120 volts with no load will only feel like a trickle. It was 930 at night when I decided to hook it up for a night for them so they weren't in the dark. 


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

eddy current said:


> The worst shock your gonna get is a fatal one! Do you really not believe that 120 volts won't kill you? That's a comment a plumber would make, not an electrician. Give me an example of a residential kitchen light that is so important, it has to be on for a night. Also, you say you've since been back and fixed it. What did you do that couldn't be done the first time? Would a second trip not cost the customer more?


I do it all the time. I even do it with 277 when I'm in a pinch. The trick is to make sure you use a weak grounded surface to complete the circuit. If it's not a very good ground you can get just enough tingle to know it's on. This method is foolproof and I teach it to all the apprentices.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brady.electric said:


> It's not the voltage that will kill you!!!!its the load. 120 volts with no load will only feel like a trickle. It was 930 at night when I decided to hook it up for a night for them so they weren't in the dark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


So what, leave them in the dark. Tell them to just go to bed, it's 9:30 at night. You don't need much load at all to kill either


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I do it all the time. I even do it with 277 when I'm in a pinch. The trick is to make sure you use a weak grounded surface to complete the circuit. If it's not a very good ground you can get just enough tingle to know it's on. This method is foolproof and I teach it to all the apprentices.


That's the worst thing you could possibly teach an apprentice. What if by accident the kids is grounded well with his other hand or something?
Foolproof? Incredible.


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## brady.electric (Aug 22, 2014)

Eddy current. Explain to me in detail why it is such a bad idea. With other than it's not right or it's not code. And explain to me how 120 with absolutely no load will kill you. Please


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

eddy current said:


> That's the worst thing you could possibly teach an apprentice. What if by accident the kids is grounded well with his other hand or something? Foolproof? Incredible.


They learn real quick how to do it correctly. Or they don't.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

brady.electric said:


> Eddy current. Explain to me in detail why it is such a bad idea. With other than it's not right or it's not code. And explain to me how 120 with absolutely no load will kill you. Please
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


I did not say absolutely no load?


> You don't need much load at all to kill either


The load from that one light would be plenty to kill someone actually.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

brady.electric said:


> Eddy current. Explain to me in detail why it is such a bad idea. With other than it's not right or it's not code. And explain to me how 120 with absolutely no load will kill you. Please
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


If you are touching a hot conductor and are touching something that is connected to ground or the electrical grounding system you are the load. The actual connected load doesn't change anything.

If you are talking about touching an open neutral and something that is connected to ground or the electrical grounding system, you are a load in series with the connected load. The resistance across you will be much much higher than that of the connected load, so the biggest portion of the circuit voltage will be dropped across you.


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## Walkman (Aug 16, 2014)

brady.electric said:


> I recently got a call to troubleshoot a kitchen light. After some time I finally determined it was a lost neutral. Everything else on circuit was working properly. It was just the one light controlled by 3-ways not working. It was getting late so I just used the ground as a neutral to get there light on. I have since been back and fixed it properly. But my questions is this what are your opinions on using a ground as a neutral in a no way around it situation or to prevent arc fault tripping. Any one ever do it as a last case scenario. What's your honest experience and opinions????Thanks


Like another poster already mentioned: Isolate it, insulate it, then go back and fix it right. Nothing wrong with putting in a temp fix if it's a safe installation. 

But you asked a follow up question. If you wouldn't do it, why not? Whenever I have to do a work-around or temp fix to keep the mission on track for any given operation, I always keep that on the top of my follow-up list and check on it daily until I get the parts or material required to do a proper repair. So, having said that; the answer to your question is not "because it's code compliant" but that it is code compliant for a reason. The AFCI is there to perform a safety function, the EGC is there to perform a safety function. I would certainly not leave it that way and not because of being liable if something were to go wrong but because I would prefer to have a safe installation in case something were to go wrong. 

If it's not critical to operations and only an inconvenience, I don't do it. If I can't make repairs safely I get help. If I couldn't find help, I wouldn't do the job.

So, in summation: I don't see anything wrong with making a necessary temp fix safely. But, I would never advocate cutting corners to be lazy or make money or for any other reason.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

brady.electric said:


> It's not the voltage that will kill you!!!!its the load. 120 volts with no load will only feel like a trickle. It was 930 at night when I decided to hook it up for a night for them so they weren't in the dark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


You become the load on that circuit. I was taught by an old timer that did that. What he didn't teach me was that if you have a cut on your finger and just enough sweat, you'll get lit up like a Christmas tree


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brady.electric said:


> I recently got a call to troubleshoot a kitchen light. After some time I finally determined it was a lost neutral. Everything else on circuit was working properly. It was just the one light controlled by 3-ways not working. It was getting late so I just used the ground as a neutral to get there light on. I have since been back and fixed it properly. But my questions is this what are your opinions on using a ground as a neutral in a no way around it situation or to prevent arc fault tripping. Any one ever do it as a last case scenario. What's your honest experience and opinions????Thanks


If a carpenter came to your house to build a deck and only had double headed nails would it be okay with you?


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

eddy current said:


> That's the worst thing you could possibly teach an apprentice. What if by accident the kids is grounded well with his other hand or something?
> Foolproof? Incredible.


Pony is not really a very good electrician(at least as a teacher) as you can tell from his replies in this thread.

He does run several thousand feet of EMT every day tho. That's what he does.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Type NM, aka Romex?

Plastic boxes?

What type of fixture?

AND NO.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

brady.electric said:


> Eddy current. Explain to me in detail why it is such a bad idea. With other than it's not right or it's not code. And explain to me how 120 with absolutely no load will kill you. Please Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


First of all, It's obvious you don't understand the proper terminology. Second: There may be no load until YOU become the load. If you are well grounded and the current (which is what kills you by the way) is in excess of .05 amps across the ole ticker, you or anybody else who is touching the now energized conductor, may be very dead.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Well Mr. Brady Electric/Get-er-done, just what did you find the next day that caused the lost neutral? You said you didn't want to tear up walls and such. What did you do to fix it?

Also, like has been said, why was a single kitchen light so important at 9:30 pm at night? Sounds like you used the ground/EGC as a permanent fix and got to thinking about it and went back to correct it. 
I maybe could see temping up something (safely) that was needed and couldn't do without, but a kitchen light?


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## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

Miller6386 said:


> How about when the power company pulls in 220 with a ground only? If they can supply a building with just a ground why is it taboo to have a ground and neutral all on the same bar in the panel?
> 
> Telecommunicated


Poco around here doesn't supply 220, only 240. Secondly they also do not supply a grounding conductor, only a grounded conductor. And your final question has nothing to do with what the topic is.


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## ElectricianJ (Apr 3, 2013)

I have a hard time calling someone who intentionally zaps themselves an electrician... Gotta have respect for what you're working on


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> They learn real quick how to do it correctly. Or they don't.


Now that there was funny! :laughing:


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

brady.electric said:


> It's not the voltage that will kill you!!!!its the load. 120 volts with no load will only feel like a trickle. It was 930 at night when I decided to hook it up for a night for them so they weren't in the dark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


The load in this case is heating up skin or possibly organs depending on the impedance. Don't get me wrong, I do the "tap test" on conductors, which are connected to circuits I am 99% sure are dead, if I am grounded poorly. The problem with impedance is that it is a variable which has a huge range in certain environmental conditions. 

My worst shock was when the grounding path was from my sweaty hand to my sweaty ear touching the bonded ceiling grid, and it was only 120.

I'm not saying I haven't cut corners, but I agree that messing with EGC as "dedicated" current carrying conductor is not something I would do. The grounding system is one of those things that is "sacred" to me, and I would be furious if I got shocked by someone hacking at the ground before I did work. _Unless_ I get somewhere where there are lots of other wiring problems, and I up my guard to dive into the hackery. Can't get mad when you get zapped and it's your own fault. 
Not calling you a hack brady, I have definitely fudged some installations myself.

Did they not have a lamp they could temporarily move to the kitchen?


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

I had a problem with a bathroom light once. Bad timing as they were going to a funeral and had people from out of town.

Left them my M18 LED flashlight along with a second battery. Good for 12 hours each.

That was Saturday, went back on Monday and fixed the problem. They hadn't even used 1/2 the first battery.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree with those who say how horrible it would be to have neutral current on that ground wire, so with that in mind I would switch it up and put white tape on the black conductor and run the ground wire as the hot..



Now before you all collapse, that would ensure there are no other connecting grounding points anyplace on that wire as soon as you energized the circuit breaker device. P.S. heat shrink over exposed bare wire and the job becomes the #1 priority in the daylight of the next morning.


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

I'd see if it could be wired as a California Three Way

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## freeagnt54 (Aug 6, 2008)

brady.electric said:


> It's not the voltage that will kill you!!!!its the load. 120 volts with no load will only feel like a trickle. It was 930 at night when I decided to hook it up for a night for them so they weren't in the dark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com





brady.electric said:


> Never wanna hear it read something like that very sad. Working in a panel I could understand it's the load and amperage that will get you not the voltage. Sad stuff none the less
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com













You shouldn't be allowed to work unsupervised.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I'm waiting to see if the cause of the missing neutral was a result of a backstabbed receptacle.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Why would you even sign your name to that ? Let the HO know, and let them make the decision to fix it right, or leave it dead. Your license, and assets are at stake.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

IF all circuits where GFI this wouldn't even be an issue bit we are going in that direction tanks to guys like you.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> IF all circuits were GFI this wouldn't even be an issue bit we are going in that direction tanks to guys like you.


What, in your opinion, would be wrong with all circuits bing GFCI protected?


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

It's not only wrong to use the EGC as a ccc and the shock may not be a big deal.

But, if you're standing on a ladder and receive a shock from a ground wire you might just fall off the ladder and kill yourself.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> What, in your opinion, would be wrong with all circuits bing GFCI protected?


With guys like this, absolutely nothing.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> It's not only wrong to use the EGC as a ccc and the shock may not be a big deal.
> 
> But, if you're standing on a ladder and receive a shock from a ground wire you might just fall off the ladder and kill yourself.


If the EGC breaks, and there is more chance since the connections are under load, the shock hazard becomes very real.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

meadow said:


> If the EGC breaks, and there is more chance since the connections are under load, the shock hazard becomes very real.


If any current flows on an egc there is a problem.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

I so enjoy finding runs were hacks use the conduit as the neutral. 
It really lights up my day.


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

I mainly do commercial work in new builds, and have pretty much never come across the OP's problem. As I said though, the EGC is hallowed ground in my opinion, and I would never use it as a current carrying conductor. Not that I feel bad for the handyman that will work after me, but I feel like anyone who even knows the slightest about electric should feel safe grabbing the green wire at a decently wired place.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I so enjoy finding runs were hacks use the conduit as the neutral.
> It really lights up my day.


In the old days when there were bare neutrals...and as a matter of fact there are still systems out there that use that it is a serious problem. The BARE neutral which is a current carrying conductor could easily become in parallel with the conduit system if a coupling were loose.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

The idea that you will be called back to "Permanently" fix the problem is stupid. In some cases the problem is now fixed in the eyes of the HO, so why have you come back. You now have no recourse to fix your own F-up. You are now greatly liable for what you did. 

This is just plain stupid business and trade practice IMO. Either fix it right the first time, or make them wait. After all, if the temp. fix is good for one night, why not more?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> In the old days when there were bare neutrals...and as a matter of fact there are still systems out there that use that it is a serious problem. The BARE neutral which is a current carrying conductor could easily become in parallel with the conduit system if a coupling were loose.


I understand that. 
But when people come outa a 3 phase panel that has no neutral and use a single pole to feed a friggen receptacle that burns me up. Just run a wire to the 1900 box and call it good. 

First time I found and asked about that, the reply was "Don't worry, I know it's there". 
That guy died 15 years ago of old age.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> I understand that.
> But when people come outa a 3 phase panel that has no neutral and use a single pole to feed a friggen receptacle that burns me up. Just run a wire to the 1900 box and call it good.
> 
> First time I found and asked about that, the reply was "Don't worry, I know it's there".
> That guy died 15 years ago of old age.


Old age is rough but it is TERMINAL.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

As I have said earlier, this is a huge issue. It is horribly unsafe, and a huge liability for you personally. Why risk your license and livelihood for a quick temporary fix?


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## zappedjack21 (Aug 16, 2010)

He may have touched the wires so many times to be shocked, but one of these days there won't be a Brady anymore because of this stupidity. We all know it takes a half of mili amp to kill you. It's the amperage not voltage. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

When homeowners want half @$$ work they call handymen when they want things fixed or done professionally they call professionals (us). You will only hang yourself acting like a professional doing handyman work. Kinda surprised this thread exists. If you cant do electrical work properly you shouldn't in anyway refer to yourself as a professional. 
If getting one light to turn on properly by properly wiring it is to much of a task.... You wont last long..


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> If any current flows on an egc there is a problem.


I know. micro to a milliamp max is normal from capacitive inductance to ground, but if its over that something is very wrong.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

zappedjack21 said:


> He may have touched the wires so many times to be shocked, but one of these days there won't be a Brady anymore because of this stupidity. We all know it takes a half of mili amp to kill you. It's the amperage not voltage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


Its both. You need the current and the voltage to be high enough to drive it across a given resistance (the body in this case). 


Think ohms law. The higher the voltage the more current will pass through. Low voltage and high amperage wont do it (car battery) and high voltage but only a milliamp short circuit current (small high voltage lab transformer that is exceptionally current limited) wont hurt. But something that can provide the current and the voltage to overcome the resistance will.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

What in the great wide world of sports is going on in this thread?


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Big John said:


> What in the great wide world of sports is going on in this thread?


Lol.


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## ablyss (Feb 8, 2014)

Big John, I think someone forgot to put there multimeter on some white tape, and the POCO lost a ground but somebody grounded it to some EMT. :O


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## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Some things like returning current on the safety ground (EGC), as we did for so long with dryers and even ocupancy sensors is part of the problem today. 

Old habits die hard.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Some things like returning current on the safety ground (EGC), as we did for so long with dryers and even ocupancy sensors is part of the problem today.
> 
> Old habits die hard.


I think where we screwed up was keeping 120 volts as a utilization voltage.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Did the OP ever get back to correcting the issue?


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

ablyss said:


> Big John, I think someone forgot to put there multimeter on some white tape, and the POCO lost a ground but somebody grounded it to some EMT. :O


And then somebody took off their shoes and touched it while standing barefoot on a damp basement floor.


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## Bugz11B (May 12, 2013)

aftershockews said:


> Did the OP ever get back to correcting the issue?


I believe he said he went back and corrected it.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Did the OP ever get back to correcting the issue?





Bugz11B said:


> I believe he said he went back and corrected it.


Then he licked his fingers, checked the circuit, and hasn't been heard from since!:whistling2:


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

Threads like this are why forum content should not be viewable publicly. Good god man.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

As others have said.... using the EGC as a current-carrying-conductor is dangerous and a violation. 250.6


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shock-Therapy said:


> Threads like this are why forum content should not be viewable publicly. Good god man.


If anything they should be public IMO, as in what not to do.


If you ever do service work violations like this are more common then lamp cord used to feed something. Sometimes I think hack work might actually be the real reason behind AFCIs...:blink:


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

dronai said:


> Why would you even sign your name to that ? Let the HO know, and let them make the decision to fix it right, or leave it dead. Your license, and assets are at stake.


exactly!
cutting corners as you say is not something anyone should do
regardless of what they are doing.
think about this would you like your heart surgeon to cut corners to save time?
or the mechanic who works on your truck or your kids car?
as far as a temporary fix like that absolutely not!

the grounding circuit is there for only one reason ,to carry current back to earth in the event of a fault (safety device)

and as far as touching a hot rather than going to your truck for your meter
that is plain stupidity.
its not voltage that kills its the current.
*please read and bookmark the following!
*http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/JackHsu.shtml


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

btharmy said:


> And then somebody took off their shoes and touched it while standing barefoot on a damp basement floor.


 You joke, I've repaired a neutral-ground fault because the HO got a buzz just like that. I also found one in my basement when I was sweaty and touched a dehumidifier, can't remember if I was barefoot, but there was a current path somehow because I got a tingle.


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## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

Big John said:


> You joke, I've repaired a neutral-ground fault because the HO got a buzz just like that. I also found one in my basement when I was sweaty and touched a dehumidifier, can't remember if I was barefoot, but there was a current path somehow because I got a tingle.


The last time I found a ground fault was from a HO friend that got shocked when she was barefoot and touched her water spigot. 96 volts from it to earth. I can't believe the dumb phrase "it's the current that gets you" even comes up in this forum. It is akin to explaining the area of a circle to a physicist.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I had a mechanic who had me sleeve red #12 insulation over the #14 bare ground of a 2 wire cable because he roughed in a 2 wire when he indeed needed a 3 wire. I personally do not do those things on my own jobs. I had a friend who believed in using ground as a neutral . I reminded him that you can't really trust the integrity of a grounding connection of a circuit. Many times it will be romex fed from a bx system with loose box clamps or twisted half size grounds without a pressure connector. There are way too many variables that can cause extensive liabilities.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Anyone who uses the ground wire for a neutral is part of the new world order.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Anyone who uses the ground wire for a neutral is part of the new world order.


Good thing I clearly stated to use it for the hot........


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Good thing I clearly stated to use it for the hot........


many years ago I had a nosy neighbor while living in a garden apt complex. I spotted him up against the building looking in my window. I removed the ac receptacle from the box which eliminated it's ground(1960s metal box ground , no bond) and jump a hot to the ground hole. I heard the yelp when he got it. I put everything back to normal in time for the superintendents query into how his pal got shocked. Electricity is my friend.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Big John said:


> You joke, I've repaired a neutral-ground fault because the HO got a buzz just like that. I also found one in my basement when I was sweaty and touched a dehumidifier, can't remember if I was barefoot, but there was a current path somehow because I got a tingle.


When I was a kid, my parents had a freezer in the basement. If you were barefoot, you had to stand on the wooden pallet the freezer was sitting on while opening the door . Otherwise, you would get shocked while standing barefoot on the concrete floor.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> In the old days when there were bare neutrals...and as a matter of fact there are still systems out there that use that it is a serious problem. The BARE neutral which is a current carrying conductor could easily become in parallel with the conduit system if a coupling were loose.


I've had that here. 
Heck we had a crew come in under contract and install 100 garbage disposals in a few of our older apt buildings. They installed a switch and some greenfield to under the sink. They only pulled the switch leg down and used a short piece of bare wire as the neutral. It was stuffed into the greenfield. Worked great for a while and when the disposal stopped, you just had to kick the whip and it would work again.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Anyone who uses the ground wire for a neutral is part of the new world order.


That's something I would say :laughing:

I seriously believe we should have adopted a distribution system in resi and light commercial where there is no usable voltage phase to ground. Would prevent a shiz ton of code violations.


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## Deanos01 (Feb 19, 2014)

brady.electric said:


> I recently got a call to troubleshoot a kitchen light. After some time I finally determined it was a lost neutral. Everything else on circuit was working properly. It was just the one light controlled by 3-ways not working. It was getting late so I just used the ground as a neutral to get there light on. I have since been back and fixed it properly. But my questions is this what are your opinions on using a ground as a neutral in a no way around it situation or to prevent arc fault tripping. Any one ever do it as a last case scenario. What's your honest experience and opinions????Thanks


 dude...


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Could be worse, could be like this that originates from a buried junction box in the soffit


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Could be worse, could be like this that originates from a buried junction box in the soffit


:laughing: Now we know why NM doesn't have an insulated ground.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

What? Use bonding jumper as a grounded neutral conductor?...Sir ..respectfully ,
turn the job down if you do not want to do it right..opening walls may be required
and yes it may cost money ...you did not do that owner any favors..period.

It's not just a code violation , it's an electrical safety hazard to people and property.


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