# Interesting green tag vs yellow tag this week.



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

We are in the process of taking over a chain businesses' fire alarm system.

We cannot support Siemens or Simplex fire systems as they are closed architecture systems and we just cannot go into the panels and change communications parameters plus we cannot support them with device replacement even if we could so replacing the fire panel and devices is our only option.

This week, we did such a takeover. Upon our arrival we saw a green tag had been issued by the Siemens tech only last month. There was a record for the same green tags issued for the pat three years on this same system.

During our takeover, we discovered there were two deficiencies that would have constituted a yellow tag. One was a non supervised non fire rated two conductor cable was used to initiate the horn strobe upon waterflow of the sprinkler system. We corrected that one. 

The second was a non operating tamper switch on the curbside PIV (Post Indicator Valve). We found the fire wire was not terminated on the switch at the PIV. discovering then the switch was not working we took it off of the post and corrected the operation but still could not get an open or closed indication on the switch at the panel.

We found where the conductor was run into the building and pulled out the cable running under the driveway toward the tamper switch discovering it had been cut about 50 ft. on a 150 ft. run by the concrete people when they laid the driveway when the business was built.

All attempts with a fishtape at getting through the underground conduit were futile. 

We called the AHJ who indicated to us the tamper was a required operation and had to be fixed before any green tag could be issued even on a non required system. They did say installing a padlock on the PIV would suffice for now.

The company is determining at this time who is to bore or trench to fix it and who is to pay for it, the concrete people or the fire alarm company who installed it and green tagged the system _knowing_ it was not a fully functional system.

Having done about 30 of these takeovers and finding many deficiencies I guess this is why we were contracted to take over these systems.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I don't know much about this stuff, but thanks for sharing. I had to google PIV to even know what it was.


Nonetheless, it is disappointing to see things like that slip through the cracks. I always thought fire systems and the like would have stricter standards to follow, but it appears fire alarm work can be just as shoddy as anything else, unfortunately.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's always things that slip through the cracks. Particularly on large systems. ADT does their monthly inspections on a certain percentage of devices on our system at work, but they've yet to discover at least a half dozen duct smokes I've found that were never hooked up and two chains of 6 or 8 ceiling mounted horn/strobe units that never strobe . I'm certain they don't know they exist. This has been after monthly checks since 1989 according to the huge pile of paperwork.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Your relationship is with you and your customer. Who is responsible to him is his own battle. It could be the GC who failed to deliver a completed system. But what do the contracts say? It also could be the company whose green tag is on it today because they are deemed to be competent experts on the matter and they are signing off on defects which they know or should have known to be defects.

or the concrete guy...


or the installer of the pvc...

As to you putting your green tag on there, you can't do that until it's an acceptable system. You need to look at your contract with the owner. You may have "bought" that defect if your paperwork does not release you. Maybe he's going to say you should have evaluated the existing system before you accepted it.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

stick a vacuum on the pipe if there is no air flow on the other end then that conduit can not be saved.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

MikeFL said:


> Your relationship is with you and your customer. Who is responsible to him is his own battle. It could be the GC who failed to deliver a completed system. But what do the contracts say? It also could be the company whose green tag is on it today because they are deemed to be competent experts on the matter and they are signing off on defects which they know or should have known to be defects.
> 
> or the concrete guy...
> 
> ...


See any green?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

LARMGUY said:


> We are in the process of taking over a chain businesses' fire alarm system.
> 
> We cannot support Siemens or Simplex fire systems as they are closed architecture systems and we just cannot go into the panels and change communications parameters plus we cannot support them with device replacement even if we could so replacing the fire panel and devices is our only option.
> 
> ...


I don't have fire alrm certification so I don't engage in this , but thanx 
for relaying the story. Stuff like this gets processed in my head for future "bewares".


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...the wrong type wire has been pulled to that PIV, it is not wet location rated. JMO


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