# ceiling fan near a sprinkler head



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I *WOULD* want to be near it when it went off because I would likely be on fire at the time! 

This is obviously not an NEC issue but is a fire code issue. I don't know the details but I do know you CANNOT have a fan or anything else under or near those heads.


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## sparky456 (Mar 23, 2009)

I would say the most important issue to worry about would be not to obstruct the spray of water from sprinkler head. The Sprinklers are engineered and placed so they can pretty much cover the square footage of the room. If there was a fire in that room I think the last thing people would worry about is fan getting wet.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

sparky456 said:


> I would say the most important issue to worry about would be not to obstruct the spray of water from sprinkler head. The Sprinklers are engineered and placed so they can pretty much cover the square footage of the room. If there was a fire in that room I think the last thing people would worry about is fan getting wet.


The pressure would probably just bust the blades the instant it turned on. 
Looking up, I have a sprinkler head ~14" from the box my ceiling fan is mounted on. And in the master bedroom its the same thing. 

At work, they move the heads when our lights are in the way, so I dont think placement is a huge deal as long as its in the general area?? 

And why do they put sprinkler heads in electrical rooms? the only stuff in there that will burn is the insulation really, and I would argue that adding water at that point would just make things worse. Unless they put them in there to turn off the fire pump, but if thats the case someone should tell them there is a better way to do it.


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## sparky456 (Mar 23, 2009)

The same issue arises in the electrical room. The main concern is not getting electrical parts wet. If there was a fire in the electrical room obviously everything in there would be extremely hot. The function of the sprinkler is to go off from the temperature of fire, not smoke. In turn this will keep the temperature in that room down with the water so the structure can stay intact longer. Steel turns into spaghetti very quickly. Fire codes pretty much take presidents to everything. Even our code book that is from NFPA makes a statement that the installations that we make are intended to be the safest not the most functional. In this case there is an electrical hazard with the water, but i think that a building collapsing prematurely is bigger


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

sparky456 said:


> The same issue arises in the electrical room. The main concern is not getting electrical parts wet. If there was a fire in the electrical room obviously everything in there would be extremely hot. The function of the sprinkler is to go off from the temperature of fire, not smoke. In turn this will keep the temperature in that room down with the water so the structure can stay intact longer. Steel turns into spaghetti very quickly. Fire codes pretty much take presidents to everything. Even our code book that is from NFPA makes a statement that the installations that we make are intended to be the safest not the most functional. In this case there is an electrical hazard with the water, but i think that a building collapsing prematurely is bigger


Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room. 
I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room.
> I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.


 
The sprinkler heads will only go off when they reach @160F, if the room has as much concrete as described, I doubt they would go off unless there was a pile of copy paper or something along those lines on fire directly below them.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Here the fan has to be 5' away from the fan. I belive it could be found in the fire code or maybe the building code.


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## Jeff000 (Jun 18, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> The sprinkler heads will only go off when they reach @160F, if the room has as much concrete as described, I doubt they would go off unless there was a pile of copy paper or something along those lines on fire directly below them.


Could panels starting to overload from shorts (from a fire somewhere else) get the room that hot??


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Here the fan has to be 5' away from the fan. I belive it could be found in the fire code or maybe the building code.


 so how does one keep a fan away from a fan?:laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

robnj772 said:


> so how does one keep a fan away from a fan?:laughing:


 Damn, you got me!:laughing: It should have been sprinkler head has to be 5' away from the ceiling fan.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Jeff000 said:


> Could panels starting to overload from shorts (from a fire somewhere else) get the room that hot??


 
Air is a great insulator, that being known I think it would be very unlikely that a short inside a panel could radiate enough heat to set off a sprinkler head a few feet away on the ceiling. I had been a volunteer firefighter for a number of years and have yet to see a head go off in an electrical closet. As for heads in mechanical rooms they tend to have higher trip points, the heads with the small glass red fluid filled vials are higher temp than the plain metal trips.


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## sparky456 (Mar 23, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room.
> I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.



Everything expands in heat Even concrete. Enough things to burn in that room and the top 5 feet in that room could be over 1000 degrees


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> As for heads in mechanical rooms they tend to have higher trip points, the heads with the small glass red fluid filled vials are higher temp than the plain metal trips.


This rings a bell. I believe that sprink heads are NOT allowed in the main service room. If they are allowed they have to be a higher temp. rating. I think the fluid is actually green. I do know for distribution closets, the head has to be a dead end. No T's or any other junctions.


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## SuperRick (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who responded. After logging onto the NFPA website and catching up on my monthly reading I came to the conclusion that checking with Metro Fire and the local AHD was in my best interest (the fire code gave several distances and instances and circumstances, from 1' to 5' depending on the measurements and clearances of the fan and other factors, good grief). The local guys said stay at 18" minimum from the head and everyone would be happy (nice and simple). When I asked about the sprinkler heads over service equipment that opened a bag of worms, it seems they all had different opinions on that one (as we did).


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## Sonny1027 (Mar 20, 2009)

SuperRick said:


> The local guys said stay at 18" minimum from the head and everyone would be happy (nice and simple).


Hi Rick,

Was the 18" minimum distance from the center of the outlet box or from the edge of the fan blade?

Regards,


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## SuperRick (Oct 16, 2008)

They said to the edge of the fan motor or canopy was best since they were concerned about blockage of the spray patern. They have had studies about blades being near or under the sprinkler and weren't as concerned about that unless the fan was abnormally large.


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## Sonny1027 (Mar 20, 2009)

Rick.......Thanks for the reply.

Regards,


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Jeff000 said:


> The pressure would probably just bust the blades the instant it turned on.


 
I just really find it amusing that you think that the pressure from the sprinkler would knock the fan blades off. It's not a firehose. At least not any of the ones I've seen go off. Maybe in Canada they have that much pressure. :laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

steelersman said:


> I just really find it amusing that you think that the pressure from the sprinkler would knock the fan blades off. It's not a firehose. At least not any of the ones I've seen go off. Maybe in Canada they have that much pressure. :laughing:


I don't know what you have seen but the sprinkler heads I have seen go off have quite a bit of pressure. The last Lowe's I worked at the fire pump maintained 160 to 175 PSI.

I have also been at FM Global where they do full scale testing of sprinklers, my money is on sprinkler head.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I don't know what you have seen but the sprinkler heads I have seen go off have quite a bit of pressure. The last Lowe's I worked at the fire pump maintained 160 to 175 PSI.
> 
> I have also been at FM Global where they do full scale testing of sprinklers, my money is on sprinkler head.


Well if I'm not mistaking this is in a bedroom, so I don't think we are talking about the same pressures. Anyhow the stream coming out of the head would have to be focused like a jet stream to knock off the blades. That pressure you mentioned isn't what is going to be hitting the fan blades homey. Now get back over to MH's.  Just joking.

That's why it's called a sprinkler not a hose or jetstream.


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## DaedalusXF (Jul 20, 2009)

In looking for the answer to the ceiling fan/fire sprinkler head question, I came across the following information. Of course, the information below does not take into consideration AHJ nor local code, if applicable, however, I believe the information herein is a great start.
A .pdf of the NFPA 13-2002 can be found here: http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/vt_fire_sprinkler.pdf
-----------------------
ANSWER (NFPA 13-2002, pg #13-60 - #13-61 / pdf pg: #99 - #100):
Art 8.10 (NFPA 13-2002, pg #13-60 / pdf page #98) is titled "Residential Sprinklers"
8.10.6.2 Obstructions to Sprinkler Discharge Pattern Development.
8.10.6.2.1 General.
8.10.6.2.1.1 Continuous or noncontinuous obstructions less
than or equal to 18 in. (457 mm) below the sprinkler deflector
that prevent the pattern from fully developing shall comply
with 8.10.6.2.
8.10.6.2.1.2 Regardless of the rules of this section, solid continuous
obstructions shall meet the applicable requirements
of 8.10.6.1.2.
8.10.6.2.1.3* Unless the requirements of 8.10.6.2.1.4 through
8.10.6.2.1.9 are met, sprinklers shall be positioned away from
obstructions a minimum distance of four times the maximum
dimension of the obstruction (e.g., truss webs and chords,
pipe, columns, and fixtures). The maximum clear distance
required shall be 36 in. (0.91 m) in accordance with Figure
8.10.6.2.1.3.
8.10.6.2.1.4 Sprinklers shall be permitted to be spaced on
opposite sides of the obstruction where the distance from the
centerline of the obstruction to the sprinklers does not exceed
one-half the allowable distance between sprinklers.
etcetera...
-----------------------
Additional Information:
~ The apartment that I reside in now has a ceiling fan 47" C.L. to C.L. from ceiling sprinkler to ceiling fan. The housing on the fan is 10" dia. and the blade tip to blade tip is 48" dia. This building was constructed in 2000~2001.
NFPA 13 2007 Changes (http://www.sfpe-socal.org/Attachments/Top10changes_NFPA13_2007.ppt)

Residential Design Considerations:
Obstructions at ceilings such as ceiling fans and light fixtures:

Pendant sprinklers to be 4 times the maximum width of the obstruction away from the obstruction.
Example would be if fan housing is 8 inches in diameter, need to be 32 inches away.
As long as fan blades are 50% open in plan view, only concern is the fan housing itself.
Maximum distance away is 36 inches.

Residential Design Considerations:
All other obstruction rules are per NFPA 13.
36” or more from centerline can ignore the obstruction.

Residential Design Considerations 
Sidewall Sprinklers: 
For Obstructions like ceiling fans and light fixtures tight to the ceiling and extended below the deflector, sidewall sprinklers shall be installed such that the distance between the center of the obstruction and the sprinkler shall be no less than one half the length of the room. Sprinklers need to be at least 5 ft. away from obstruction unless all conditions in NFPA 13 are met.


Sources:
~ Public.Resource.Org: http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/

~ pdf Format: http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/vt_fire_sprinkler.pdf

~ Power Point Presentation Format: http://www.sfpe-socal.org/Attachments/Top10changes_NFPA13_2007.ppt

~ HTML Format: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...fans+fire+sprinklers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## DaedalusXF (Jul 20, 2009)

*Interaction of Residential Sprinklers, Ceiling Fans and Similar Obstructions (Jan 06)*

Here's a little more information about this topic. It seems to me that the problem is ceiling fans inevitably are a problem with wet fire surpression systems; however, there is no consensus as to what the maximum allowable interference to said suppression systems should be.

I believe most of us are going to be most interested in part 6.2.3 (pg# 100 / pdf pg #110) through part 6.2.4 (pg #101 / pdf pg #111). I still recommend that you read the complementary articles.


SOURCE (.pdf):

Interaction of Residential Sprinklers, Ceiling Fans and Similar Obstructions

FPRF Report: http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//P...sidential_Sprinklers...-V.Valentine_paper.pdf


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## slowforthecones (Sep 13, 2008)

I install fire alarms and fire sprinklers often. My money is on 36" away from the blade.


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