# Customers who don't pay, or who try to find a way around paying you for the work completed day of?



## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

How do you handle customers who don't pay or try to find a way around paying you for the work completed day of?


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

LEM,
Labor.
Equipment.
Materials.

Signed daily. If not on Quoted project. For a given Cost, but still use the paper work for keeping track of profit per Job.

As for hard refusal Non payment. File a lean on. The buildings/land. Corporate assets. Till the account in question is clear. Some time, it takes quite awhile to close. 

It is our Job, too also. Pick the customer, that will pay with a given timeline that is agreed upon.

Yes, I have walked from a project due to RED FLAGS BEING RAISED. During the quotation/engineering phase on new customer dealings.

Working for free, gets you through the pearly gates. But does not really make the world turn.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I've never been burned for more than a couple bills, where the headaches aren't worth recovering the money.

I've since learned to know my customer base, and only work in parts of town where my projects and their costs are well accepted.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Leans against a property are difficult to collect.

I placed a lean for non payment against a homeowner.

You have to pay a fee to place the lean, then you have to renew the lean every few years and pay the fee again.

Only when the home is sold and a title search is done will anyone notice the lean.

If you move, you must be the one to change your contact information, probably a lot easier with the Internet compared to 40 years ago.

This was in Texas, your State could be different.

For this reason I request payment of at least 50% upfront.

That will typically cover the materials, so I'm just out my labor.

There are ways to at least get even, if someone refuses to pay, but not always legal.


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## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

ohm it hertz said:


> I've never been burned for more than a couple bills, where the headaches aren't worth recovering the money.
> 
> I've since learned to know my customer base, and only work in parts of town where my projects and their costs are well accepted.


Yes and this is the thing thats getting me, this is a very nice part of town and the person owns a consulting company. Very high end job, as in - doesnt need to be done but wants it to be done.

HO said that 4 electricians have ghosted him and then I am the first one to actually do some work and he even said he was surprised I stayed and very happy. So I'm really confused as to why he would give me the stick rather than the carrot?

If he paid me for each day at the agreed upon rate of $160/hr I'd be more than happy to keep coming out, now he has hurt my pride and frankly I dont want to return


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## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

wiz1997 said:


> Leans against a property are difficult to collect.
> 
> I placed a lean for non payment against a homeowner.
> 
> ...



Issue with this job, its almost all labor. Pulling ethernet and adding a couple outlets. Nothing major, HO stated he's been trying to get this project done for 15 months and ghosted previously by 4 electricians. Why would he not pay me the agreed upon rate for the first day that would encourage me to continue coming out?

How do I proceed?


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

So it might not be coincidence that other electricians ghosted him?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Don't do anything more for him till he pays you, then give him a hard quote that he pays BEFORE the work is done.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

The other 4 either probably heard about this guy or he has gotten at least a day's work out of each one and refused to pay.

Eventually he will get the job done for free.

Replaced a breaker panel years ago and the home owner would not give me final payment.

Left work early, stopped at his place, removed all the breakers except for the main, which I turned off.

He got home to an unbearably hot house, with no power.

Received a call telling me he had no power and his breakers were missing.

Told him I could get it all working again, but first I needed my payment.

He stated he could give me a check for what he owed me.

No checks cash only.

He replied he couldn't get the $600 in cash until the next day.

I said, call me tomorrow then, and hung up.

10 minutes later he calls back stating he has the cash.

Went back over to his place with "backup", got my money and put the breakers back in.

Gave my "backup" $100 of the $600.

Did I menation my "backup" was an unsavory looking guy that rolled up on a fully restored 1976 Harley Road King?

There have been others that refused to pay, they ended up having to pay someone else more than what they owed me to get their power back on.

Fortunately the statue of limitations have expired.


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## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

wiz1997 said:


> The other 4 either probably heard about this guy or he has gotten at least a day's work out of each one and refused to pay.
> 
> Eventually he will get the job done for free.
> 
> ...



dude is ex-military and has cameras everywhere. No thanks to that idea, but I am involving my lawyer and will pay him a visit on monday, not sure what to say though. Can I involve the police?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

You don't say what state you are in and laws differ from state. Here it is a civil matter and the po.ice do not get involved.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

ManicTulip76 said:


> dude is ex-military and has cameras everywhere. No thanks to that idea, but I am involving my lawyer and will pay him a visit on monday, not sure what to say though. Can I involve the police?


The only time I've seen police help in similar situation, GC wasn't paying subs, customer's son was police chief (some kind of fraud / conversion of funds)

GC arrested on a Friday night so had to spend weekend in jail

Took a few years, but we all got paid in full, monthly checks from probation department 

Sorry this doesn't help OP problem, but I just love telling this story so much


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I never get paid until the job is done. You did one days work and you want to get paid? Finish the job and unless you setup a payment schedule you won't win in court


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

ManicTulip76 said:


> dude is ex-military and has cameras everywhere. No thanks to that idea, but I am involving my lawyer and will pay him a visit on monday, not sure what to say though. Can I involve the police?


Lawyer will do what benefits lawyer = scoop up all the money he can get, from everyone.

Cop will do what benefits the cop = nothing so he can chase the next call.

Why don't you do what benefits you - talk to him man to man saying he's behind and you need him to get caught up per the understanding of terms. Be professional and pleasant. If there's a difference of understandings work it out. It's business. This way you get your money and as a bonus, you get to keep it!

Also, please fill out your profile by clicking your Avatar at the top right-hand corner of this page, and selecting Account Settings. Look for the red and do that. Thanks.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

ManicTulip76 said:


> HO said that 4 electricians have ghosted him and then I am the first one to actually do some work.


This was your first red flag.

Never commit to a job out of contract which you're not comfortable walking away from. IE forget the mistake, remember the lesson. I once had a prominent local business owner ask me to rough in his 15x40 lean to covered patio. He wanted almost 20 recessed lights, several soffit lights, two ceiling fans, a handful of receptacles and two dedicated 220v heaters. I gave him a four figure number to rough it all in and never heard back from him. He called me because his GC said the electrician ghosted him, too. There's a reason for this, and it's always because of a picky customer. Always.

I don't work for GCs, but the guys who do, stick with them through it all. So it says a lot for a GC to lose their electrician on a job. 

The easiest way to get your money is to keep doing work for him, but less, for more, and counter the losses that way.


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## Spark-NH (Nov 3, 2017)

Hey guys new here, but I’ve definitely been in this situation. MikeFL nailed it, I do exactly that: just come right out and label the problem, “hey Mr.name I have a concern I’d like to address, we agreed on this payment schedule, why didn’t you pay me?”
There’s an awesome book called “never split the difference” that’s helped me tremendously in communicating with shitty customers.
Another big help is having a digital program to present a price up front, have the client sign and agree, perform the work, then have them sign again

Good luck brother!


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

bottom line .... you did not identify the red flag
been there, done that, got the t-shirt, broke the coffee mug.

one guy ghosted him, no biggie. two ? maybe, maybe not. three looks very suspect. four is a dead giveaway. especially if each of them did some work before ghosting


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

how long does it take your cat to fix his hair every morning ? LOL


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wiz1997 said:


> The other 4 either probably heard about this guy or he has gotten at least a day's work out of each one and refused to pay.
> 
> Eventually he will get the job done for free.
> 
> ...


Pic of Harley Guy on his Road King or it didn't happen.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Good friend of mine has been doing resi carpentry for 30 years. He doesn't lift a finger, until he gets check from homeowner. Then he orders materials that that check covers. Depending on size of job, he will do that again and again until job complete. Meaning NO WORK or materials ordered until check is cashed.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Sometimes put yourself in the homeowners shoes. There are many more contractors ripping off homeowners then homeowners ripping off contractors. Sure it is nice to get paid in advance but that might indicate to a homeowner that they are about to be ripped off. Most consumer protection agencies suggest against paying in full before the work is inspected and passed. Several times I had to go in to fix or finish another electrician's work because he had problems or was just a screw up. I have also been in houses that passed the electrical inspection but the work was extremely bad. It would be nice if everybody conducted themselves with morals and integrity. Some states require a written contract for any work over a certain dollar amount.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Sometimes put yourself in the homeowners shoes. There are many more contractors ripping off homeowners then homeowners ripping off contractors. Sure it is nice to get paid in advance but that might indicate to a homeowner that they are about to be ripped off. Most consumer protection agencies suggest against paying in full before the work is inspected and passed. Several times I had to go in to fix or finish another electrician's work because he had problems or was just a screw up. I have also been in houses that passed the electrical inspection but the work was extremely bad. It would be nice if everybody conducted themselves with morals and integrity. Some states require a written contract for any work over a certain dollar amount.


Should always be a contract...hence the name 'contractor'.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Sometimes put yourself in the homeowners shoes. There are many more contractors ripping off homeowners then homeowners ripping off contractors. Sure it is nice to get paid in advance but that might indicate to a homeowner that they are about to be ripped off. Most consumer protection agencies suggest against paying in full before the work is inspected and passed. Several times I had to go in to fix or finish another electrician's work because he had problems or was just a screw up. I have also been in houses that passed the electrical inspection but the work was extremely bad. It would be nice if everybody conducted themselves with morals and integrity. Some states require a written contract for any work over a certain dollar amount.


Any job of substance requires 1/3 down... that's an accepted given - that payment may be when the material is delivered... anything less is the homeowner playing games or being overly cautious to the point of ineffective and useless such as the siliciosos guy and anyone else who enters a construction trade fearful of disease or injury or other ghouls in their closet. 

For a job whhere it's not an already trusted client and they expect electrical work soup to nuts and then pay a month later like you're a utility bill - that's out of line- and most often what wealthy people who have zero qualms about ripping off a self-employed working man want because they have employees, and resent the self employed, and treat them like they should only earn an hourly wage despite their business presense. Because only they should turn a profit, not people who work for them. And they think because a self employed contractor has no boss THEY become their defacto boss and act as such. 

Need to do some verbal Judo and some contractural if not actual kneecapping. Harley dude sounds about right but remember, they're self employed contractors in their own right. Don't mess with Local 66.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

LGLS said:


> Pic of Harley Guy on his Road King or it didn't happen.


Unfortunately that friend of over 30 years passed away some 10 years ago.

The Road King was auctioned off to help his family cover his final expenses.

Big, mean looking dude, who wouldn't hurt anyone.

He had two pomeranians that were meaner than he was.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

wiz1997 said:


> Unfortunately that friend of over 30 years passed away some 10 years ago.
> 
> The Road King was auctioned off to help his family cover his final expenses.
> 
> ...


Pomeranians?!?!?! Say no more. Sonofabitch bastards!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> Any job of substance requires 1/3 down... that's an accepted given - that payment may be when the material is delivered... anything less is the homeowner playing games or being overly cautious to the point of ineffective and useless such as the siliciosos guy and anyone else who enters a construction trade fearful of disease or injury or other ghouls in their closet.
> 
> For a job whhere it's not an already trusted client and they expect electrical work soup to nuts and then pay a month later like you're a utility bill - that's out of line- and most often what wealthy people who have zero qualms about ripping off a self-employed working man want because they have employees, and resent the self employed, and treat them like they should only earn an hourly wage despite their business presense. Because only they should turn a profit, not people who work for them. And they think because a self employed contractor has no boss THEY become their defacto boss and act as such.
> 
> Need to do some verbal Judo and some contractural if not actual kneecapping. Harley dude sounds about right but remember, they're self employed contractors in their own right. Don't mess with Local 66.


I notice that most wealthy people do not like to part with their money. My father told me that they are probably waiting to collect their monthly interest on their millions of dollars in the bank. I also think wealthy people do not understand what it is like to work for a living and fight to be paid. They assume everybody has money.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I notice that most wealthy people do not like to part with their money. My father told me that they are probably waiting to collect their monthly interest on their millions of dollars in the bank. I also think wealthy people do not understand what it is like to work for a living and fight to be paid. They assume everybody has money.


Agreed, in their mind (NOt ALL mind you, Dave Geffen wasn't like that, Nor Billy Joel or Liza Minnelli, generally those NOT born with it, but Bill Cosby was) but the rest think "he want's some of MY money" not believing your LABOR and TIME and EFFORT and the actual resulting product is something you didn't "gift" them as a reward for being king/queen chit.


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## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

Spark-NH said:


> There’s an awesome book called “never split the difference” that’s helped me tremendously in communicating with shitty customers.
> 
> 
> Good luck brother!


Great book. Voss is the man and Ive listened to it 3 times. His youtube videos are great also


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## ManicTulip76 (6 mo ago)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I never get paid until the job is done. You did one days work and you want to get paid? Finish the job and unless you setup a payment schedule you won't win in court



You're right. I didnt tell the whole story. The original job isn't totally completed, however, when his assistant contacted me, it was clear that this would be a project by project basis, since the HO "Doesnt have any more time for walkthroughs"

So yes, I was under the understanding that I would be paid day by day. The jobs were completed for that day


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

I honestly wouldn't hire someone who expect's to be payed daily as that just seems like a red flag.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

ManicTulip76 said:


> Yes and this is the thing thats getting me, this is a very nice part of town and the person owns a consulting company. Very high end job, as in - doesnt need to be done but wants it to be done.
> 
> HO said that 4 electricians have ghosted him and then I am the first one to actually do some work and he even said he was surprised I stayed and very happy. So I'm really confused as to why he would give me the stick rather than the carrot?
> 
> If he paid me for each day at the agreed upon rate of $160/hr I'd be more than happy to keep coming out, now he has hurt my pride and frankly I dont want to return


And now we know why the others ghosted him.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

I tell you this, if permits were required for any of the job then you can not lien unless you had permits. If you can lien then DO IT. If any other electrician has any issue or wonders about this guy they will find the lien. Liens are EASY and can be written in half an hour by you. Filling is usually under $20 plus certified mail. BTW when paid you can give a conditional release subject to check clearance. Give him the release in person or by mail. Make him go file it with the recorder office. Not your issue.

As far as working for this guy. His agreement was project by project. Therefore any project completed MUST BE PAID before continuing. After payment then tell him because he held back payment you need $XXX paid by check each day/week before starting the jobs. Balance of bid at completion of each task.

Explain that you are not in the business of extending credit nor credit terms. FULL Payment is due upon completion of each task bid and you do not have any time to deal with customers who will not pay on time. If he argues then pick up your tools and tell his assistant to have a great day and walk away.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Matt Hermanson said:


> And now we know why the others ghosted him.


Yep now there's 5 ghosts of Christmas past dragging his chains.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

There are the people who cheat me out of hundreds. It happens now & again.
The worst are wealthy property owners. They seem to be premeditated in their methods.
I don't quote a fixed price. It's very rare to know all the details of a project up front. I avoid working as a sub contractor. I'd rather work for the property owner.
One project, the builder was a friend of the owner, he was also my friend. The owner was a rich man. You've heard of his famous grandfather. He donates money often to local non profits. The builder trusted him, so I trusted him. He used excuses to avoid paying progress bills, so it was a one time payment. The job kept growing. It started as a 2 car garage, ended up 64' long by 32' wide. It was insulated, sheet rocked, & painted down. It had an exercise room, boiler room store room bathroom & three garage bays. It gained a full second floor framed in mortice & tenon timber frame. It was set up as both a music room & an apartment with wiring for both uses. No cash flow, work stalled. about December 10 owner notified he was going off on an extended trip to Europe. If we all wanted to be paid, be complete before the end of the month. All the tradesmen neglected other work to get his project finished. Then we waited. 30 days later no checks had arrived. Plumber filed suit immediately. He got paid in full. I filed a lien. The Town Clerk failed to record my lien until he had a chance to transfer ownership to his brother. I got wind of what she had done, pitched a fit, she admitted my lien had been filed before the property transfer. I had to file a second lien in the brother's name.
Homeowner called me angry. I had no right to ruin his reputation filing a lien, & besides, he no longer owned the property. I informed him I had filed a second lien against his brother. He was furious! Assured me I couldn't sue his brother. My lawyer cited the statute language assuring him I could file suit against both him & his brother. I explained it was more money than I could afford to loose. It took a couple more months, but he did pay me to avoid me suing his brother. My lawyer cost about $1000, but I collected the full debt owed, about $21,000.
The builder didn't do as well. He settled out of court for half what he was owed. I believe he lost about $40,000.

A few years later, the owners of a BIG fancy house my father & I had wired in 1974 had died. New owner planned a kitchen renovation. He asked for an estimate on the wiring. I gave an approximate figure. As the kitchen renovation straggled along, the crew tore into room after room. The job kept growing, even to adding on extensively in several directions. The impressive fireplace was replaced & three more were built. Project grew extending to the guest apartment above the large garage. I billed monthly, & was paid. After 17 months, work seemed to stall. I checked weekly, seeing no progress, wasn't much I could do either. The roofer, painter, excavator had been fired, they couldn't find replacements. The building went untouched a couple months, then progress resumed. Through spring, progress continued at a steady if not rapid pace. Every piece of a very large house was replaced. It extended to landscaping & wooden retaining walls were removed to be replaced with cut granite. Several sets of outdoor stairs were built with 18" X 7" X 10 foot long granite slabs. A building across the road looked like a 1 room school, was jacked up, a new concrete foundation, & a concrete ramp to access a new garage door unseen from the road. Then the in ground pool was renovated.
Two weeks before my son's wedding, they moved in! I arrived Monday morning to see two moving vans lined up. Absolutely no warning, "We've waited long enough!" Homeowners described it as the contents of three houses. They spread moving blankets on the areas they piled clutter. The narrow pathways were unprotected & we were cautioned; "please don't step on the floors."
It was impossible! the cleaning crew was bitching loudly their vacuums wouldn't work. At least 6 times I was directed to "I only want this outlet" Seth was away that week at service school, I was alone. At one point I grumbled to the builder; "I literally haven't driven a screw today without being redirected. This is more important."
Pressure built until the day of my son's wedding. I missed part of the day, fussing over these people's demands. 
The job wasn't finished, but it settled to a stop. No one was active. One room, the master bedroom remained. All went quiet. I billed them, then heard nothing. At 30 days I started sending reminders. Still no response, I called my lawyer. He did not respond. I went in search of another lawyer. One came highly recommended. I met with him to see that he was in his eighties. He seemed competent. 
He assured me there are two judges in the area, both take a dim view of wealthy people who don't pay. The process begins with a lien. The lien then needs to be proven, a legal ruling from a judge that a debt was owed. That has to happen in 6 months, or the opportunity is lost. Meanwhile, the owner stuck to it that it shouldn't cost this much. My bills were itemized, Which part should be free?
In six months, deadline for lawsuit, he had paid $5000. of the original $14000 debt. On the final deadline, my lawyer was notified his female lawyer had filed a document stating they felt my long life in this County biased the judge in my favor. She had asked & been given change of venue to Chittenden County where the owner's lawyer had good connections with the one judge who would hear the case. 
My lawyer was defeated! He conceded the loss & advised me best I could do is settle. She offered 1/3 of the debt, We settled for 1/2.

From my perspective, you work for honest people, or get screwed. The civil system does NOT support tradesmen.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

In many states one is allowed to file lien and the owner MUST RESPOND with demands for itemization etc within usually 20 to 40 days. Then the contractor has a limited time to respond (however if the itemization was given in the lien then it is irrelevant). Then the owner has XXX days to file suit against the lienor. lastly the Lienor must file suit within XX months. In some states liens will expire outright, in others are renewable and in some are perpetual.

The issue is that one can lien at EVERY PAY POINT and DELIVERY POINT and should lien at every point. However, every time you work again after filing a lien you are agreeing to extend commercial credit. This changes the rules a LOT. In bankruptcy you might get NOTHING. Include specific language that the parties agree that you are not a bank and give no credit or loans for any purpose. Agreement that billing and payment dates are for the convenience of the contract only and are NOT an extension of any credit makes a difference in how that law looks at debt. Agreements that contractor is acting as agent for the owner in purchase and delivery of materials is another clause that can be effective. Lastly a pay when paid clause is a MUST regardless. This means that as the contractor you need not pay anyone until paid, it becomes the OWNER responsibility.

Remember that many states do not allow you to take high down. payments on a contract. Some limit it to actual dollar maximums or low percentages. This means that the STATE is attempting to make you a creditor in commercial credit. You do not want to be that, and you need your contracts to have that agreement, that you are not extending credit of any kind.

Remember to file TWO separate liens, one as a material man, one as an EC (you can be both either as one entity or two) if your state has better rules for material men. Your price of materials can include logistic overhead for purchasing plus your cost plus reasonable and just profit. Materialmen have some excellent rights in many states, above those of contractors. Just be sure that your original bid estimates are done in a way that reflects the logistic overhead as a line item (cost of materials plus overhead and profit separate) against materials as well.
As a GC in TX total logistics, (purchasing management and non-productive overheads such a book keeping etc were around 25% of the total project work time (average) for me. SO I would use 25% logistics cost for materials then material profit on top 10 to 15%, I have also listed material based on the per foot/per unit values of box stores and purchased at wholesale cost, it ends up very similar with a profit added.

One of my friends keeps his materials as a dba unrelated to his EC. He actually purchases all materials personally and delivers them to the property under a separate billing through his dba (on paper), the cost included in the total contract value as any supplier would be. This means he owns all materials on his trucks personally! He gains that state's better laws as a materialman and possibly a federal ucc1 lien as well.
Part of his contract includes language that he is acting as agent for the owner in purchasing all materials. His documents show deliver to the owner and he signs his name for the (owner) on the PO and the receiving docs. If I recall this may not work when you are a subcontractor, unless you have the owner sign the document as well. Done properly this allows a UCC1 to be filed as (well as?) a material man claim against property. 

Hope this gives some ideas to those out there.


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## Willie B (Jan 31, 2020)

The business I own was started by my father in 1963. I took over in 1995. Many years I worked alone, now it's me & my 37 year old son.
Dad used liens routinely. Mother was the paperwork end of the business. She was an unpleasant pit bull of a woman & she'd hound a customer. Still, kind hearted father got screwed sometimes. I don't think he allowed collection measures against anyone who couldn't pay. 
In his day there were only a few who wouldn't pay a sizeable amount. I recall a builder who was fired from a project, but didn't mention it to tradesmen. The plumber, electrician, painter & mason were billing the homeowner directly. Builder kept working & finished the job. Whether the owner didn't know work continued, or deliberately kept quiet, I'll never know. 
The owner refused further payments. Mother filed a lien which remained in effect years until the owner died. His heirs had to pay the bill to clear the title & sell the house.

More recently, I had a couple, husband was a Kennedy cousin. After I had done a job under $1000. the couple broke up. It was a property passed down from the wife's family. When she ignored bills, reminders, & failed to answer phone calls, or even answer the door, I filed a lien. It took years, but I got a call from a very angry lawyer demanding why I would do such a thing. My piddling little lien was holding up a multi million dollar sale! 
I suggested the fix was simple, pay the bill.
He called me some unpleasant names & hung up. 
1/2 hour later, he called again. She would mail a check, I was to go to the town clerk's office immediately & remove the lien. 
I responded I'd do so after the check cleared the bank, might take a week or so.
He was enraged! But the more he demanded, the more stubborn I became. I was physically 35 miles from the town clerk's office until 6:00 PM, but agreed to meet after work to accept cash for the debt. I lifted the lien next day.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

It's a little different in Georgia 

Lien preserves my right to sue but expires at 1 year

If bank foreclosed, lien goes away (or I can buy the house)

House can be sold if owner "bonds around" lien (I don't really know specifics but I sold spec house that Painter had lien against, might have cost me around $30)


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## JourneymanJohn (Jan 22, 2011)

ManicTulip76 said:


> How do you handle customers who don't pay or try to find a way around paying you for the work completed day of?


A friend of mine used to do work in nightclubs. He got paid before he removed his ladder. If not, he'd remove what work he had done. Jobs not complete until cash was in hand.


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## James Philip Ryan (5 mo ago)

CAUSA said:


> LEM, Labor. Equipment. Materials. Signed daily. If not on Quoted project. For a given Cost, but still use the paper work for keeping track of profit per Job. As for hard refusal Non payment. File a lean on. The buildings/land. Corporate assets. Till the account in question is clear. Some time, it takes quite awhile to close. It is our Job, too also. Pick the customer, that will pay with a given timeline that is agreed upon. Yes, I have walked from a project due to RED FLAGS BEING RAISED. During the quotation/engineering phase on new customer dealings. Working for free, gets you through the pearly gates. But does not really make the world turn.


first I would ask them if they are 100% satisfield. After that if they didn’t want to pay, I would ask them if they have a job, if they say yes, I would ask them if they get paid. At that point I would ask them if they intend to pay, and why they aren’t. If they say no, I would tell them I have to tighten something in the panel, pretending I’m ok with the situation. Then I would cut a few cables at the connectors, and tell them to have a nice day.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sabatoge can be momentarily satisfying but may create new headaches


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## vicleo48 (6 mo ago)

Non-paying customers, actually one big one, is what made me decide to close my business. I laid off my employees, sold one truck and some equipment and was C.O.D. at the wholesale houses and worked by myself and it took me 15 months but was able to pay them all back without filing for bankruptcy. I had one contractor bail on me for over $32,000 and I was a small contractor. When I went to file leans on the two big houses I had wired for him, I found out that the other contractors had already filed against him and his puny $10,000 bond for nearly $225,000, leaving the poor two homeowners holding the bag, since he had duped them into getting them to sign that all the work was complete and all the contractors had been paid. My attorney said even if I filed, I'd have filing fees, his fees and would be lucky if I broke even. I later found out that this guy had a track record of moving into a state, opening up a contracting business with the minimum bond, building a few new homes, and shafting the last contractors before skipping the state. Actually the first house I wired for him was a very nice one and he paid right on time and didn't quibble one bit about the extras. Boy did he set the hook and shaft me. The next two bigger ones, he kept having one excuse after another why the money from 'back east' wasn't showing up.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

readydave8 said:


> Sabatoge can be momentarily satisfying but may create new headaches


Who was the member who said that they would intentionally create shorts that would be hard to find that they would take out during trim out as “insurance” for payment?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could send a 1099 to the contractors or people who stiff us? Let the IRS with their new 87,000 armed agents go after them.


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## Buck Parrish Electric (Jan 8, 2021)

ManicTulip76 said:


> dude is ex-military and has cameras everywhere. No thanks to that idea, but I am involving my lawyer and will pay him a visit on monday, not sure what to say though. Can I involve the police?


You can check to see if their are any cases on file where he has been sued before for the same thing..
The magistrate could say that the owner has developed a pattern of taking goods / services under false pretences.


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## seelite (Aug 24, 2009)

School trained electrician, started solo, kept expanding. After 47 yrs in the Trades I sold out. Then had enough time to review *all* my records (by then on computer). Found that in almost a half century I only had just over one half percent unrecoverable. Every penny owed was on service calls (same day pay). All other work was on a contract basis, had good legal help, and best advice I ever got was from a retired IRS examiner. The trick seemed to be to not cry about what was, and concentrate on learning from what went wrong. I admit that I was a paperwork fanatic, but best compliment I got was from a attorney when in mid-job he wanted to make changes. Sure changes happen all the time so I pulled out my change order pad, put carbon 'tween the sheets when he said that he had dealth with many contractor in past, but had never received a change order to sign. I had much future business with that firm. I believe the trick to be at an early stage in business to sit down with a lawyer familiar with Contract Law and pay him/her to set up all your bookeeping, stay familiar with the work of ALL your employees. Learn from new hires and retain what they do better than you yourself. Prayer & luck do help.


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## VitalJuice (Sep 12, 2021)

In Minnesota, the home owner has 7 days to pay. No requirement to pay immediately. If your are working under a GC and the homeowner pays the GC, and the GC skips out, the homeowner's obligation is considered settled, you have to go after the GC.

Minnesota also gives the home owner the right to pay suppliers and subs directly. From reading in other electrical groups, most have a big issue with the HO knowing how much the supplies are. Guess I'm not sure why this is such a big deal. Anyone can google the price of devices or walk around Home Depot and see for themselves.

As for ghosting, I don't read much in to it. I'm in a rural area. The local people like to spend more time at the bar than at work. It can be difficult to get some of these people out on a job, or get them to complete a job. The better off people around here bring in people from a bigger city and pay more.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

VitalJuice said:


> In Minnesota, the home owner has 7 days to pay. No requirement to pay immediately. If your are working under a GC and the homeowner pays the GC, and the GC skips out, the homeowner's obligation is considered settled, you have to go after the GC.
> 
> Minnesota also gives the home owner the right to pay suppliers and subs directly. From reading in other electrical groups, most have a big issue with the HO knowing how much the supplies are. Guess I'm not sure why this is such a big deal. Anyone can google the price of devices or walk around Home Depot and see for themselves.
> 
> As for ghosting, I don't read much in to it. I'm in a rural area. The local people like to spend more time at the bar than at work. It can be difficult to get some of these people out on a job, or get them to complete a job. The better off people around here bring in people from a bigger city and pay more.


You mentioned that people can look up how much we pay for things, Several years back I had a bunch of home owners questioning my price on a simple 200 amp service change. They knew almost exactly what my materials cost. They simple went into Home Depot and priced everything out


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> You mentioned that people can look up how much we pay for things, Several years back I had a bunch of home owners questioning my price on a simple 200 amp service change. They knew almost exactly what my materials cost. They simple went into Home Depot and priced everything out


I can't compare HD.com vs your wholesale outlets, but I can compare my wholesale to HD.ca . I looked at a handful of Square D breakers and compared pricing. HD.ca is 20-30% higher than my wholesale.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

joe-nwt said:


> I can't compare HD.com vs your wholesale outlets, but I can compare my wholesale to HD.ca . I looked at a handful of Square D breakers and compared pricing. HD.ca is 20-30% higher than my wholesale.


Early Covid HD was cheaper because they had a lot of stock that they were slow raising prices. For instance 2/0 SEU at HD was $8.50 / foot and the SH was $18.00 / foot. Now HD is about $5.00 more and the SH is $6.00 less than before. Leaving SH maybe $2.00 cheaper.


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## VitalJuice (Sep 12, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> You mentioned that people can look up how much we pay for things, Several years back I had a bunch of home owners questioning my price on a simple 200 amp service change. They knew almost exactly what my materials cost. They simple went into Home Depot and priced everything out


Yup. no hiding it, not sure why some try. I guess because they don't want the HO to know how much per hour they are charging? If they are ashamed of that, then maybe their labor is too high?

IMHO, everyone is entitled to a line item cost. 

One carpenter I had do work for me on my house over charged me 40 hours! I was able to tell this by seeing his line items and comparing it against my security camera.

He wasn't too happy when he gave me his daily hours and I compared them and called him out on it.


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## VitalJuice (Sep 12, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Early Covid HD was cheaper because they had a lot of stock that they were slow raising prices. For instance 2/0 SEU at HD was $8.50 / foot and the SH was $18.00 / foot. Now HD is about $5.00 more and the SH is $6.00 less than before. Leaving SH maybe $2.00 cheaper.


I have a couple 500' spools of 2-2-2-4 left that I paid $700 from Menards when everyone else had already double theirs. Wish I had ordered more.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

ManicTulip76 said:


> How do you handle customers who don't pay or try to find a way around paying you for the work completed day of?


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

I remember a customer didn't pay my dad for work performed. My dad came to job site and cut all the wires to make it unusable. Home owner filed a claim with state board of electricians and they sided with home owner issued a fine and a suspension warning


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

kolyan2k said:


> I remember a customer didn't pay my dad for work performed. My dad came to job site and cut all the wires to make it unusable. Home owner filed a claim with state board of electricians and they sided with home owner issued a fine and a suspension warning


Yep...you cant touch it once installed, and even once bought and placed on site. Laws work in customers favor.


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## kolyan2k (Apr 13, 2014)

Veteran Sparky said:


> Yep...you cant touch it once installed, and even once bought and placed on site. Laws work in customers favor.


That's nice considering he paid foe all materials and got zero for it


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