# Laundry circuit failed



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

So he asking for (2) regular 120v receptacles with AFCI/GFCI Protection.

But how is this now considered a “Laundry circuit”

What if someone changes out this machine in the future, what are the guidelines that make up required “Laundry circuits”


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Is this my fault?
> 
> I installed a laundry circuit consisting of a 120V gfci and a 240v outlet.


Only if it needed Arc fault and you didn't install it. Get rid of the adapter at inspection time. It is on the home owner to plug in that adapter after you leave and it is inspected.

Cowboy


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I believe the inspection stops at the receptacle. At least that is what I look at. As long as the NEC requirements are met.

Side note.
One thing that I noticed about the laundry appliances and receptacles is that the upscale gas dryers draw 12 plus amps and the matching clothes washers draw 10 amps. The code only requires one 20 amp laundry circuit. Electricians are only installing the one circuit and plugging in both appliances into the same circuit. 22 amps. They have no control which appliances the home owner buys.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why are they using the adapter? Why not just plug into the 120V GFCI outlet you installed?

The code requires 1 receptacle fed with a dedicated 20A circuit You have that.

Ask the inspector to show you the code article that he is using to justify him requiring you to add more receptacles.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

WronGun said:


> Is this my fault?
> 
> I installed a laundry circuit consisting of a 120V gfci and a 240v outlet.
> 
> ...


Maybe my eyesight is bad but I do not see a UL or other ETL sticker on that device


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Why are they using the adapter? Why not just plug into the 120V GFCI outlet you installed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So each appliance here uses 120V 15A standard plug. 

So technically it does need 2 circuits. 

However , we didn’t know which units they client was buying. So by the time we got inspection both units are plugged into this device. 

I don’t know if he’s looking at it as being a 120v outlet now with no GFCI or AFCI protection. 

I’m looking at it as we did our job and can’t control the gadgets customers buy. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m not following why you need two circuits for standard 15A plugs.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Well that doesn't look like a fire hazard or anything getting two 15's from a 30 amp. That's not even counting the fact it doesn't look to be UL'ed which just adds to the fire hazard side of it....yikes!


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

You can run a twenty amp circuit to a 15 amp duplex all day long. The carpenter/gc I work with really pushes the customer to pick his or her appliances early on. In your case, that's a new one on me, never seen that before.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> You can run a twenty amp circuit to a 15 amp duplex all day long.


Or you can plug a 15 amp plug into a 20 amp outlet. Both ways work fine.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Is this my fault?
> 
> I installed a laundry circuit consisting of a 120V gfci and a 240v outlet.
> 
> ...



It's not a valid test. The inspector must inspect what you installed, not the consumer devices have been connected to what you installed.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Those slots on the back are for fuses. 

I would just use the 20 amp receptacle you provided and call it a day.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's not a valid test. The inspector must inspect what you installed, not the consumer devices have been connected to what you installed.


Bingo that.

What if this was a vacant unit with no occupants yet? 

Could the inspector then say, I'll come back when it's rented so I can see what they buy for appliances?

Of course not.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Absolutely not your fault. You installed a 240v dryer recept as requested. You also installed the 210.11(C)(2) laundry recept as required. The inspector cannot fail you because the dryer recept is not required to be gfci protected. He’s out of his mind if he thinks you’re liable for what the customer plugs into his recepts. 

It doesn’t matter if that German thingie is listed by a NRTL. You didn’t install it. I’d rip it out of the dryer recept and demand a new inspection. 

Now, if it’s a home inspector doing a pre-mortgage/sale inspection, well then it’s not surprising that he’d be confused about this. But it’s also not on you either way. Tell him to pound sand.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

nrp3 said:


> The carpenter/gc I work with really pushes the customer to pick his or her appliances early on. In your case, that's a new one on me, never seen that before.




And that’s only as a courtesy. 210 lists required circuits, and that’s all you’re liable for so far as inspection goes. If the print shows extra recepts or whatever, you obviously charged him to put them in. But it’s not an inspection thing. Who cares what appliances the homeowner wants? You can accommodate them if they want to pay you to.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Tell the inspector to take up his concerns with the customer and write you a green sticker. If he doesn't like that, tell him to suck _MY_ tallywhacker.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

The Label states "Use only with 125V Fuse", causing more confusion.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

These Meile brand machines are horrible, both circuits trip with AFCI’s washer and dryer! Ahhhh


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> These Meile brand machines are horrible, both circuits trip with AFCI’s washer and dryer! Ahhhh
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That shouldn't matter because you should be removing the AFCI breakers after the inspection anyway.

What did you mean earlier when you said that you needed 2 different circuits because the machines have 120V 15A standard plugs?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> These Meile brand machines are horrible, both circuits trip with AFCI’s washer and dryer! Ahhhh


Let me guess...Homeline or QO. I don't know what it is about Square D, but their AFCI breakers are so prone to nuisance tripping from appliances.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That shouldn't matter because you should be removing the AFCI breakers after the inspection anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> What did you mean earlier when you said that you needed 2 different circuits because the machines have 120V 15A standard plugs?




Just manufacturer requirement in manual 

(1) 240v 30a plug with adapter or 2 15a circuits 


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

MTW said:


> Let me guess...Homeline or QO. I don't know what it is about Square D, but their AFCI breakers are so prone to nuisance tripping from appliances.




Siemens , swapped them out for gfci only breakers as a test..... no trip , all good. 


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Miele brand is weird. I did a job last year that required moving the dryer receptacle to the side. The machine cam with a 14-30 splitter box. 30 amps in and 2x 15 amps out on the 14-30 receptacles. The box had build in breakers made by Schneider.

As far as that adapter goes, i would consider that the same as those plug in 14-50 to 5-15 adapters for stove plugs.

You shouldn't need AFCI or gfci protection, as what the client plugs in is beyond your control. What if he decides to stick a screwdriver Into it? Will the inspector make you install a TR 14-30 (of which I've never heard of)?

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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

You did a proper install for a laundry room. 
240 dryer circuit( 4 wire I hope)
120 washer circuit protected by GFCI. 
What the customer tries to plug into those is not your issue. 

Look at this way. 
If I wire up a bathroom using a standard North American outlet using a protected 20 amp circuit what totally follows the code and the customer buys some European hair dryer that needs an adapter then that has NOTHING to do with me


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I was reading the thread and many members make few very good points on the required circuit for laundry room.

The inspector should stop at the receptacle that it.,, not use the adaptor thing.

Wrongun .. you did what ya have to do but if the inspector want to raise ya on that just go to upper level or chief inspectors and make sure you take a photo of that to be aware of that.

Merle washer and dryer .,, ugh I know I know I have ran into them once a while some washer do come in 120 volts and some did came in 240 volt verison and once a while I just run into that but just the opposite way what ya hitting. 


I would make sure your customers understand do not plug anything until the inspection is done then they can do whatever they want.


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## bobbylynn (Sep 14, 2017)

*Laundry Circuit*

Install a gfci 30 amp breaker on dryer. Nec only required gfci protection on the washer. 

--
Bobby Lynn


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That shouldn't matter because you should be removing the AFCI breakers after the inspection anyway.


When a customer asks me to do that, I tell them to look on craigs list for someone that would be a lot cheeper than me and would actually be willing to do the work... after final and my last check cleared.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

It's NOT your fault your inspector is an idiot. BUT, I've found that keeping that your "little secret" is best for all parties involved. Just tell the customer he needs the GFI version of that adapter. And your point about the code definition of a "laundry circuit" is spot on, so tell him to suck it. (but, not out loud).(just think it really loud).


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

bobbylynn said:


> Install a gfci 30 amp breaker on dryer. Nec only required gfci protection on the washer.
> 
> --
> Bobby Lynn


How can that be, if the drier is in close proximity to the washer? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think the code is.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

joebanana said:


> How can that be, if the drier is in close proximity to the washer? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think the code is.




Because a washer is not a sink. It does not normally splash water.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

tjb said:


> Because a washer is not a sink. It does not normally splash water.


Neither is a dish washer. It doesn't have to be a sink to be a source of water. If you can reach the faucet, and touch the drier at the same time, I would think that counts. Some of those old "up n go downer" laundry beaters splash quite a bit with the lid open. We never thought they would require GFI's under the kitchen sink for the D/W, Disp. either.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

Valid point. This is why the code is revised every three years. Cuz nobody can think of everything.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This thread is retar=ded and I would just burn that house down to the ground and then pee on the ashes. For the children.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

......


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> This thread is retar=ded and I would just burn that house down to the ground and then pee on the ashes. For the children.




Tell us how you really feel.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

This same inspector gave us another hard time this week. We don’t work much in this particular town. 

Anyways, I’d like to share this story. 


I’m an not much for ordering material for every single job. I’ve been busy enough to have stock in inventory. Particular key items. One being the Siemens 200A 40 space 80 circuit panel. I feel it can serve many situations and has plenty of capability. I also get a great price when I buy a dozen. 

The inspector called me on this service upgrade and didn’t grasp the idea of my putting in a disconnect meter socket...( meter is 10’ away from panel)

Then asks “why would you install such a panel and use tandem breakers? These breakers cost double!”

I said “Actually a Siemens Breaker is $4.50 and these Tandems are $9.00 when bought in quantity. And I don’t really need to explain this because if they are listed by UL and the panel is tandem rated I can install gold plated breakers if I choose” 

He actually had me open up the panel cover... he inspected every wire and locknut. How do they let some people be inspectors ??? I am very close to making a phone call on this guy..... he has no business criticizing my work or material....


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

WronGun said:


> This same inspector gave us another hard time this week. We don’t work much in this particular town.
> 
> Anyways, I’d like to share this story.
> 
> ...


I mean, he isn't exactly wrong. Tandems shouldn't be used in new panel installs. Why would you install a new panel and jam it full of tandem breakers?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> I mean, he isn't exactly wrong. Tandems shouldn't be used in new panel installs. Why would you install a new panel and jam it full of tandem breakers?


I would just get two 30 or 42 space panels and be done with it cuz by time you bring in a lot of cables in one cavity it can packed pretty tight so I just rather go with two panels a Main breaker panel and subpanel that usealy take care of it. 

you should see how tight the cavity will get especially if you get the tub pretty full in there. and yuh sometime you will run out of KO openings.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> I mean, he isn't exactly wrong. Tandems shouldn't be used in new panel installs. Why would you install a new panel and jam it full of tandem breakers?




I never heard of this.... it’s a Siemens 40/80 

It’s not jammed, it’s not even half full. About 20 spaces out of 40 occupied. This includes all the DP breakers. 

I do not see a code violation here... 

The point is we Keep this in stock, sometimes we do not install any tandems in them, but it’s capable and we did on this one. Point proven when he backed off the subject and passed the job.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I mean, he isn't exactly wrong. Tandems shouldn't be used in new panel installs. Why would you install a new panel and jam it full of tandem breakers?


Why not? Other than _old man etiquette_ there is nothing saying that you shouldn't use tandems in new panels. The Canadians do it all the time, their valuepack panels come with tandems and they sell for the same price as 2 single pole breakers.

I often find myself installing a 24 space 48 circuit panel where there are 18 or so circuits because there is not enough space for a bigger panel. I will install tandems so that it doesn't look like the panel is almost full.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I want Siemens tandems for $9!


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Why not? Other than _old man etiquette_ there is nothing saying that you shouldn't use tandems in new panels. The Canadians do it all the time, their valuepack panels come with tandems and they sell for the same price as 2 single pole breakers.


Jamming two breakers into the space of one just decreases the ability to dissipate heat. Granted, it isn't often a problem, but I have seen it a handful of times to the degree that I try to avoid using them in situations other than one or two circuits in an already-full panel.

Putting tandems in a new panel seems like a lack of planning. I don't care if you do it. That's fine by me.



> I often find myself installing a 24 space 48 circuit panel where there are 18 or so circuits because there is not enough space for a bigger panel. I will install tandems so that it doesn't look like the panel is almost full.


:vs_OMG::vs_OMG:



HackWork said:


> I want semen


What is wrong with you?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Jamming two breakers into the space of one just decreases the ability to dissipate heat. Granted, it isn't often a problem, but I have seen it a handful of times to the degree that I try to avoid using them in situations other than one or two circuits in an already-full panel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We can debate all we want.... code is code , inspector doesn’t have any business critiquing the financial decisions regarding materials or installation.... personally, I don’t care about his feelings... 


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

WronGun said:


> We can debate all we want.... code is code , inspector doesn’t have any business critiquing the financial decisions regarding materials or installation.... personally, I don’t care about his feelings...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not debating chit. I said he wasn't wrong. I didn't say that you were. I was commenting on his opinion. He is free to say whatever he wants. It sounded like he was just talking. If you did everything to code, tell him to go pound sand.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Jamming two breakers into the space of one just decreases the ability to dissipate heat. Granted, it isn't often a problem, but I have seen it a handful of times to the degree that I try to avoid using them in situations other than one or two circuits in an already-full panel.


 I don't really believe it. If it is actually true, I don't really care, I'll still do it.

Tandem breakers are listed for that use. I'm sure that the testing is pretty rigorous. If it becomes an issue in a residential situation in which most circuits see an average of 2 amps, so be it. They can pay me to come back and replace it. Tandems are not just for jamming more circuits into old panels, 1space-2circuit panels are sold new today for the express purpose of installing tandems in them. 

FWIW, I usually put car chargers and other large loads at the top and almost never use tandems for those.







> What is wrong with you?


 Nothing. Why, is there something wrong with wanting that? REPORTED.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> He is free to say whatever he wants. It sounded like he was just talking.


He's not free to say whatever he wants.


WronGun said:


> We can debate all we want.... code is code , inspector doesn’t have any business critiquing the financial decisions regarding materials or installation.... personally, I don’t care about his feelings...


I couldn't agree more. Part of his job is NOT giving his opinion. That is clearly spelled out here and most likely your state too. 

If he doesn't like tandems being used, he should petition his state/municipality to amend their adoption of the NEC.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> Maybe my eyesight is bad but I do not see a UL or other ETL sticker on that device


What requires it to be listed at all?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> I don't really believe it. If it is actually true, I don't really care, I'll still do it.


Well f you right up your a, with a big black n.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Well f you right up your a, with a big black n.


Ok, when?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Ok, when?


I'm at the U Haul rental now.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

CoolWill said:


> I'm at the U Haul rental now.


Michelle O works at U Haul?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Signal1 said:


> Michelle O works at U Haul?


:surprise:


:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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