# Inspector wants Romex squared off in attic



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

NoBot said:


> I've been wiring new homes for 37 years. This is the first time an inspector told me that all Romex in an attic must be perpendicular or parallel to the framing members. None of it can run on an angle. These are stick framed roofs with an access panel in one closet ceiling. Of course we don't run wire near the access panel.
> I asked for a NEC reference and all he said was "it's in the code book"
> What's your opinion?


I would then say "SHOW ME"!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Maybe 110.12? Neat and workmanlike manner? Can we still say "workmanlike" or do we have to say, " workpersonlike" manner. It is better for the perpendicular / parallel idea. So many times attic floors are installed for storage or central AC is added and everything is then installed on top of the cables.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Does your NEC require wires in the attic to be protected from being stepped on?
ie: running boards beside the cables?

Running at angles look sloppy and really doesnt save that much money..


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's nothing that states the cables must be parallel or perpendicular to framing. I personally like to keep things as square and as out of the way as possible but if they've opted for the lowest possible price they didn't buy that.

Using the neat-and-workmanlike requirement would be a blatant overreach by the inspector, insisting on right angles would be past neat and workmanlike into OCD. All work is supposed to be neat and workmanlike. Does that mean there's a requirement to make a frame for MC whips into light fixtures so you can lash them down so they are plumb and square to the grid? Do the cable ties all have to wrap in the same direction? 😆 



wcord said:


> Does your NEC require wires in the attic to be protected from being stepped on?
> ie: running boards beside the cables?


In this case running boards would be required within 6' of the access panel. NEC article 334 is NM cable, and it references the rules in article 320, armored cable.



> 334.23 In Accessible Attics. The installation of cable in accessible attics or roof spaces shall also comply with 320.23.





> 320.23 In Accessible Attics. Type AC cables in accessible attics or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in 320.23(A) and (B).
> 
> (A) Where Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) of floor or floor joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics and roof spaces that are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips that are at least as high as the cable. Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be required within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

neat-and-workmanlike requirement 

We've all seen crappy work and wondered how the electrician got away with it .
only once have I heard of a contractor failing because of poor workmanship ( I've seen some of his work and he is a disgrace to the trade)

Sloppy workmanship usually has the inspector checking out everything.

The CEC requirement is 1 meter above the bottom cord of the truss/rafter


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I was being facetious when I said NEC 110.12.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I got snagged on poor workmanship when the plumber put a sink close to my new panel. As far as I know, there is no rule about proximity of a panel to a sink in the CEC. The plumber moved the sink.

Romex square or parallel to framing members? That’s bunk as far as I’m concerned. I often drill from corner to corner through joists. It can be easier drilling holes than banging staples even if you own an Estwing. 😊


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## dogleg (Dec 22, 2008)

I really don't think he has a case, I cant think of a reference and have seen plenty of rough ins run diagonally (3' away from scuttle hole only) I remember in the earlier days in Houston (1979) there was a 3 foot rule (3 foot or less area from the ceiling joist to the bottom of the truss) I have tried to keep that in mind when roughing in.It keeps the other trades from stepping on them or laying ductwork right where your wires are placed damaging wires.
While reminiscing of the old days with my yankee screwdriver , and also didn't have to ground anything over 6 high.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dogleg said:


> I really don't think he has a case, I cant think of a reference and have seen plenty of rough ins run diagonally (3' away from scuttle hole only) I remember in the earlier days in Houston (1979) there was a 3 foot rule (3 foot or less area from the ceiling joist to the bottom of the truss) I have tried to keep that in mind when roughing in.It keeps the other trades from stepping on them or laying ductwork right where your wires are placed damaging wires.
> While reminiscing of the old days with my yankee screwdriver , and also didn't have to ground anything over 6 high.


Along with the Yankee screwdriver did you have the old bit and brace with a three corner file?


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## dogleg (Dec 22, 2008)

kb1jb1 said:


> Along with the Yankee screwdriver did you have the old bit and brace with a three corner file?


3 corner file yes, but a clutchless hole hawg instead of a brace and bit,LOL


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dogleg said:


> 3 corner file yes, but a clutchless hole hawg instead of a brace and bit,LOL


Clutch less! OUCH!


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

kb1jb1 said:


> Maybe 110.12? Can we still say "workmanlike" or do we have to say, " workpersonlike" manner.


Work-MAN-like and workper-SON-like are both male based words.

Try Work-ALTBINARY-like for a neutral word. It is one of the excepted choices on a drivers license.


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## rowdy1930 (Feb 25, 2020)

NoBot said:


> I've been wiring new homes for 37 years. This is the first time an inspector told me that all Romex in an attic must be perpendicular or parallel to the framing members. None of it can run on an angle. These are stick framed roofs with an access panel in one closet ceiling. Of course we don't run wire near the access panel.
> I asked for a NEC reference and all he said was "it's in the code book"
> What's your opinion?


Never required to do this in 38 years, it's absolutely crazy


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## davey (Aug 14, 2010)

dogleg said:


> 3 corner file yes, but a clutchless hole hawg instead of a brace and bit,LOL


Got rid of my Kett drill motors, but not all my Kett bits--including a new one! With Ketts you're got selfeed, get out the 3-sided file, plus one side flatted for the setscrew chuck.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

99cents said:


> I got snagged on poor workmanship when the plumber put a sink close to my new panel. As far as I know, there is no rule about proximity of a panel to a sink in the CEC. The plumber moved the sink.


I have a service upgrade to do for a friend. The panel is literally 3' away from the kitchen sink. I was worried about it, I asked an inspector, and they said there's no rule prohibiting the new panel from going there. 2 years now since I looked at that cottage. Ground plate I don't think even got installed yet... and I left it for the homeowner to install for me.


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## NoBot (Oct 12, 2019)

Thanks for all the replies. Our work is neat, we use Stak-its, drill holes in straight lines and place a level on everything. I was more shocked than anything that someone would criticize our work.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is the section. I know this is for ac cable but art. 334 sends us here



> 320.23 In Accessible Attics. Type AC cables in accessible attics
> or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in 320.23(A) and
> (B).
> (A) Cables Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where run
> ...


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

NoBot said:


> I've been wiring new homes for 37 years. This is the first time an inspector told me that all Romex in an attic must be perpendicular or parallel to the framing members. None of it can run on an angle. These are stick framed roofs with an access panel in one closet ceiling. Of course we don't run wire near the access panel.
> I asked for a NEC reference and all he said was "it's in the code book"
> What's your opinion?


All through my career I have encountered inspectors that are all over the place with their enforcement. One day you will have one that will barely look at anything, the next day you will have one that demands that the neutral bar bond screw be installed in a sub-panel. Unfortunate, but you have to work through it the best you can.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

wcord said:


> Does your NEC require wires in the attic to be protected from being stepped on?
> ie: running boards beside the cables?
> 
> Running at angles look sloppy and really doesnt save that much money..





NoBot said:


> I've been wiring new homes for 37 years. This is the first time an inspector told me that all Romex in an attic must be perpendicular or parallel to the framing members. None of it can run on an angle. These are stick framed roofs with an access panel in one closet ceiling. Of course we don't run wire near the access panel.
> I asked for a NEC reference and all he said was "it's in the code book"
> What's your opinion?


ignorant lazy inspector


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Though not code....Any good electrician would only run cables on conduits 90 or perpendicular to members...on angles looks unprofessional IMO


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Wirenuting said:


> Work-MAN-like and workper-SON-like are both male based words.
> 
> Try Work-ALTBINARY-like for a neutral word. It is one of the excepted choices on a drivers license.


I don't think I will be doing that.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Millions of tract homes with NMD snaked every which way in the attic.
I heard once, somewhere in a land far far away, an inspector actually went up and looked during inspection..... That could very well be urban legend though.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

emtnut said:


> Millions of tract homes with NMD snaked every which way in the attic.
> I heard once, somewhere in a land far far away, an inspector actually went up and looked during inspection..... That could very well be urban legend though.


When I was a helper in the early 70's I ran a window AC circuit under the house and took the angle in the far corner of the house instead of squaring it up and ... the inspector actually crawled all the way over to the other side of the house and turned us down (I was ignorant of this requirement).


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Does he "require" faceplate screws be vertical too?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Neat and workmanlike refers to a NECA standard of which the only thing above and beyond Code I can remember is a bunch of stuff about material storage and lining up the penetrations neatly.

You are supposed to secure NM every so many feet, same as any other cable type where exposed runs are allowed. So just cross crossing every which way in an attic looking like a telecom/CATv install job isn’t going to cut it.


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## God man (Oct 15, 2010)

Authority having jurisdiction....


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

God man said:


> Authority having jurisdiction....


I love that term. It could be very subjective. Where I live it is the building department's code official that is the AHJ. They do not do electrical inspections and rely on outside third party agencies. These people are not code officials so they really do not have the power as an AHJ. They only inspect to the NEC and do not inspect to the building or energy codes.
I put the term AHJ right up there with " Qualified person" or "Authorized person".


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Squaring off all your NM runs in a home would require more labor and material and probably not be very practical if you were trying to compete with other contractors. It would be nice if the home runs were squared off and out of the way where they originate so that you didn't end up with such a mess of cables going everywhere. Often times service for cable TV and internet originate from the same location and they go all over the place and often cross over the electrical lines. You end up with a big mess.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

joebanana said:


> Does he "require" faceplate screws be vertical too?


No but I do or I should say I did....


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I can see why the inspector might want cables squared off. I just started a job where they are installing plywood in an attic. The attic is very big, over 8 feet to the ridge, and the homeowner wants the storage. The problem is the original electrician ran all the cables with the two point theorem. If there was a duct, cleat, strong back or anything else in the way he just went over it. I am estimating 2 days to clean up the wires.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Easy said:


> Squaring off all your NM runs in a home would require more labor and material and probably not be very practical if you were trying to compete with other contractors. It would be nice if the home runs were squared off and out of the way where they originate so that you didn't end up with such a mess of cables going everywhere. Often times service for cable TV and internet originate from the same location and they go all over the place and often cross over the electrical lines. You end up with a big mess.





dogleg said:


> 3 corner file yes, but a clutchless hole hawg instead of a brace and bit,LOL





kb1jb1 said:


> Clutch less! OUCH!


I had one of those punch me in the face once

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


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## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

Outside of looking like sh.t when you B-line a wire, I don't think it is a code.


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