# Kitchen Peninsulas



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

For years I have read article 210.52(C)(2)&(3) and have wondered why we never got red tagged for the lack of outlets on a peninsula. As I, and this author, read the article there should be an outlet as shown to the right of the range on the peninsula. The peninsula is from the connecting edge---but I have never installed one there since the one on the wall was sufficient. 

I am curious if others get red tagged for this and if they read this section as we do. It seems absolutely ridiculous IMO to require one there


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I am not seeing any wall space immediately to the right of the range. Perhaps an interpretation of what is and is not wall space might affect the decision.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I am not sure where you got wall space from.... I was saying that the receptacle that is over the base cabinet on the wall is allowed, in this area, to satisfy the req. for the outlet to the right of the range on the peninsula, as shown.

If the space to the right of the range is 12" or more then 2 receptacles are needed on the peninsula as shown in the drawing. The connecting edge is where the peninsula contacts the base cabinet going perpendicular to it. 




> (3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle
> outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space
> with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a
> short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular
> countertop is measured from the connecting edge.





> (4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by
> rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as
> separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of
> 210.52(C)(1). If a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or
> ...


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

I see what your say'in Dennis, but I interpret it differently.
I'd say it doesn't matter if the peninsula has 1, 2 or 10 "spaces",
all that matters is if the peninsula is greater than the specified 
size. If it's larger it needs 1 plug. If not, no plug needed. 
Same goes for islands. 
Can't guarantee my interpretation is right. All I can say is we 
have a similarly worded rule here in Ontario and it (one plug per 
peninsula) has been ok with the inspectors so far.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

PlugsAndLights said:


> I see what your say'in Dennis, but I interpret it differently.
> I'd say it doesn't matter if the peninsula has 1, 2 or 10 "spaces",
> all that matters is if the peninsula is greater than the specified
> size. If it's larger it needs 1 plug. If not, no plug needed.
> ...


The article I posted states where the peninsula starts from.. In the graphic it starts at the dotted line- where the peninsula connects to the base.

The code goes further to state that if there is an appliance that breaks up this island into 2 spaces-- as it does in the graphic- then we need 1 receptacle installed at each separate countertop space.

So the 2 receptacles shown on the peninsula is required according to the NEC however I have never installed the one just to the right of the range as the graphics shows. It has never been req. around here.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Either that peninsula in the drawing has a raised backsplash because a wall was framed onto the whole backside of it, or it is one really ugly diy mess because of the back of the range is showing , and there is no place to put a range outlet..................:thumbsup:



When there is a raised backsplash at the back, I always put an outlet both sides of the oven. If no backsplash , then one out at the end of the cabinets. Only the worlds biggest ****** of an inspector would push for one on the right if there was no splash, or else some idiot looking to get himself another code requirement adjustment pushed thru in 2017 just for more bragging rights at Mikeholt.com. Did you dream this up Dennis?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

What are you considering the long dimension, up and down or right and left? Because the long dimension on the left side of the range is going right and left. If you use that on the right side of the range, a receptacle is not needed if it's under 24 inches. I have never had this come up. I have had customers instruct me not to install receptacles in islands and peninsulas. I tell the inspector I'm not allowed and they then talk to the HO. I've never seen a HO lose the fight.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Either that peninsula in the drawing has a raised backsplash because a wall was framed onto the whole backside of it, or it is one really ugly diy mess because of the back of the range is showing , and there is no place to put a range outlet..................:thumbsup:


It's a drawing, no backsplace --gee you are nitpicky--:jester:




> When there is a raised backsplash at the back, I always put an outlet both sides of the oven. If no backsplash , then one out at the end of the cabinets. Only the worlds biggest ****** of an inspector would push for one on the right if there was no splash, or else some idiot looking to get himself another code requirement adjustment pushed thru in 2017 just for more bragging rights at Mikeholt.com.


I agree that with a backsplash we add two rec. but without a backsplash the code still requires two and we have never been called on it. I see you don't get called on it either. 




> Did you dream this up Dennis?


I have thought about this for years and just assumed the counter receptacle would cover it but the code is clear.

Here is the kicker...If you had a 8' island without any break then one receptacle is required, however if there is a range then 2 are required. 

MY main question is how many of you install 2 receptacles in this scenario?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

In my past ahj's have viewed countertops as requiring the 48" 210 spacing via the fact most kitch countertop appliances have 24" cords. 

Due to all_ trendsetting_ backsplash-less designs , 210(C)(5) EX is cited, predicated on the above.....

This then gets into cabinet design and placement, having little to no consideration for our trade.....:no: 

We usually whip up MC thru the exposed portions :thumbsup:many carpenters have lost sleep over this....

~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm with you Dennis, I don't install one there, and I as reread the code for the billionth time, one is required. 
But 
As far as I'm concerned, and the inspectors that I deal with, a peninsula's connecting edge is at the wall. Unless specified on the prints, I always put one over the peninsula in the wall, and everything was kosher. I can't ever remember being questioned about it either.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've had ahj's insist larger islands broken up by a sink/stove have a recept @ on _both _sides, despite what 210.52 may say.

My only _b*tch_ is the design. One has a hellova time meeting the 12" down requirement if it's all drawer space to deal with:no:

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> This then gets into cabinet design and placement, having little to no consideration for our trade.....:no:
> 
> ~CS~


We are fortunate -for the most part- to have used the same few installers over the years so they know to call me and go over outlet placement. This avoids many problems.

My entire career we never installed that one req. receptacle and never got called on it. I wonder whether the inspectors are aware of it or do they think it is bogus.

I must say that the connecting edge is a bit lacking in definition but IMO and most inspectors views the connecting edge would be at the cabinet not the wall otherwise you would not need the term connecting edge. 


Here is where it gets tricky again


Where is the connecting edge on this graphic


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

IMO, the connecting edge is at the same point and we would consider the first 2' part of the wall base cabinet


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> I've had ahj's insist larger islands broken up by a sink/stove have a recept @ on _both _sides, despite what 210.52 may say.
> 
> My only _b*tch_ is the design. One has a hellova time meeting the 12" down requirement if it's all drawer space to deal with:no:
> 
> ~CS~


It is CS as long as the space behind the is no greater than 12". *Figure 210.52(C)(1)  Determination of Area Behind a Range, or Counter-Mounted Cooking Unit or Sink.*
*







*​

*(2) Island Countertop Spaces.* At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well i agree with you _both,_ yet we have had to deal with an '_inspector regime change_' here w/in the last few years that's taken* all *of my patience for these details....~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> We are fortunate -for the most part- to have used the same few installers over the years so they know to call me and go over outlet placement. This avoids many problems.
> 
> My entire career we never installed that one req. receptacle and never got called on it. I wonder whether the inspectors are aware of it or do they think it is bogus.
> 
> ...


While, I may not be able to when a fight with my previous argument Dennis, that island doesn't connect at all to that range. Thus making it a 3 sided peninsula which connects directly to the wall, and the wall alone. One in the wall is enough


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

But what if that penn has an exterior wall ? 

Is it then wall space or cabinet area? 

If against a wall, is it seen as required to have gen use (@18"aff) recept space?

Has anyone here tried the Formal Route for these Q's?

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> But what if that penn has an exterior wall ?
> 
> Is it then wall space or cabinet area?
> 
> ...


If there were a full wall then IMO it is not a peninsula. If the wall goes up high enough to install outlets then IMO it will be considered a wall- knee wall- and would need the standard layout.

I have this basic question sent into Raleigh and I hope the one of the 7 cmp members will answer this in April


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Has anyone here tried the Formal Route for these Q's?
> 
> ~CS~


When I was a nfpa member I would occasional call there for an interpretation. To be honest I wasn't impressed as it was one guy who really, IMO, was not up on it as he should be. I never felt I had a confident answer.

The process you posted may be looked at by a committee IDK


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I still want to know where that range in picture #1 is plugging in at...........

Maybe because it is in the south, does this dwelling where that backless oven sits also feature a dozen vehicles parked out in the yard in various states of non running status?
Methinks there is a problem here that doesn't really exist in the wild.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> I still want to know where that range in picture #1 is plugging in at...........
> 
> Maybe because it is in the south, does this dwelling where that backless oven sits also feature a dozen vehicles parked out in the yard in various states of non running status?
> Methinks there is a problem here that doesn't really exist in the wild.


Receptacle and gas are in the floor with a sheet of 1/4" masonite as a backer. 
Move along


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. You have stirred up the pot again needlessly. Nobody ever has gotten red tagged for that and now they will.............


As punishment I have dispatched out a Hawaiian war canoe named Hokulea, and presently they are coming your way from the Virgin Islands or thereabouts, after sailing all the way around from the Australian side. It's going to be tar and feathers for you now, there is no escaping from a canoe full of angry Hawaiian Warriors.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I still want to know where that range in picture #1 is plugging in at...........
> 
> Methinks there is a problem here that doesn't really exist in the wild.


I can't tell if you are serious or not. See that break in the range by the back. Pretend that is a filler-- normally it would be counter-- and there is a 3/4" back on the cabinet with dead space that most ranges have behind them

Now, methinks you are messing with me so I will give you the corresponding answer. The range cord was taken off and a 10' so cord installed which was pushed thu a hole in the back and plugged in the crawl space

The diagram is very real but it is a picture not a photo so many liberties are taken. 



> Maybe because it is in the south, does this dwelling where that backless oven sits also feature a dozen vehicles parked out in the yard in various states of non running status?


My whacked out neighbor who finally foreclosed on his property had 7 vehicles- 3 of which ran- all over the yard. He actually had a Large camper parked parallel to his front door about 2' away from the front steps. 

This guy left the house in shambles. All the floor were pulled up and the plywood was painted. All the windows are either broken or the seals are broken so they fog up, roof, a/c, siding, kitchen and baths are all destroyed with a deck you may not want to walk on. He paid $230,00 for the 1,500 sq. ft place and it is on the market -after 7 years- for $180,000. IMO, if you can get it for $150,000 it may be worth it. Nice lot at cul de sac and neighbor is nice and quiet


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I can't tell if you are serious or not. See that break in the range by the back. Pretend that is a filler-- normally it would be counter-- and there is a 3/4" back on the cabinet with dead space that most ranges have behind them


The little line you are referring to is the built in backsplash on the freestanding range. Ranges are 24'' depth. Backside is showing..... Of course all the other ranges in the neighborhood want to come over now and take a peek at that I bet...........


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> The little line you are referring to is the built in backsplash on the freestanding range. Ranges are 24'' depth. Backside is showing..... Of course all the other ranges in the neighborhood want to come over now and take a peek at that I bet...........


You need therapy :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> My whacked out neighbor who finally foreclosed on his property had 7 vehicles- 3 of which ran- all over the yard. He actually had a Large camper parked parallel to his front door about 2' away from the front steps.
> 
> This guy left the house in shambles. All the floor were pulled up and the plywood was painted. All the windows are either broken or the seals are broken so they fog up, roof, a/c, siding, kitchen and baths are all destroyed with a deck you may not want to walk on. He paid $230,00 for the 1,500 sq. ft place and it is on the market -after 7 years- for $180,000. IMO, if you can get it for $150,000 it may be worth it. Nice lot at cul de sac and neighbor is nice and quiet


:lol: .....you might be a ******* IF.....:laughing:~CS~:laughing:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> :lol: .....you might be a ******* IF.....:laughing:~CS~:laughing:


Not a *******-- whacked- literally. Sex offender with 2 children- he did 2 years for it but not sure what it was, windows have cardboard over the glass. 

One night he was outside working in his yard with some compactor at 3 AM. Oh but he had a flashlight. He would not work much during the day. But we are getting off topic here so last post for me on it


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Either that peninsula in the drawing has a raised backsplash because a wall was framed onto the whole backside of it, or it is one really ugly diy mess because of the back of the range is showing , and there is no place to put a range outlet..................:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> When there is a raised backsplash at the back, I always put an outlet both sides of the oven. If no backsplash , then one out at the end of the cabinets. Only the worlds biggest ****** of an inspector would push for one on the right if there was no splash, or else some idiot looking to get himself another code requirement adjustment pushed thru in 2017 just for more bragging rights at Mikeholt.com. Did you dream this up Dennis?





macmikeman said:


> I still want to know where that range in picture #1 is plugging in at...........
> 
> Maybe because it is in the south, does this dwelling where that backless oven sits also feature a dozen vehicles parked out in the yard in various states of non running status?
> Methinks there is a problem here that doesn't really exist in the wild.





macmikeman said:


> The little line you are referring to is the built in backsplash on the freestanding range. Ranges are 24'' depth. Backside is showing..... Of course all the other ranges in the neighborhood want to come over now and take a peek at that I bet...........


It could be a cooktop mounted in the countertop. Not particularly relevant to Dennis' question. Get over it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> It could be a cooktop mounted in the countertop. Not particularly relevant to Dennis' question. Get over it.


I can clearly look at the word range in Dennis's post. And .............


Poking at Dennis is part of my Shtick ......... We will be the opening act this Friday night at the Comedy Club on the Strip. Go early and get a seat up front.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> It could be a cooktop mounted in the countertop. Not particularly relevant to Dennis' question. Get over it.


It is all good. Mac and I know each other well and he is just messing with me. I am not worked up about it...

I will, however, get even.


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