# why we must make tight connections.



## SparkyDino

I can't stand loose fittings!

I have chewed more asses out for not tightening the set screws or compression rings or lock nuts. I got hit bad in a ceiling by 277 off of a 1/2" EMT because the fitting broke free & the conduit was floating with no ground path.

Well there was a ground, ME! conduit, ME & air duct.

Me fall down off ladder onto concrete floor.

Me left work that day and sat on a bar stool and drank.

If I ever run into the "so called" electrician who installed that conduit prior to me touching it, I will punch him in the face. :thumbsup:

Then I will punch him in the face again for doing horrible 277/480 splices in the J box that came undone to have caused this potentially fatal issue in the first place.


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## HARRY304E

DH ELECTRIC said:


> I can't stand loose fittings!
> 
> I have chewed more asses out for not tightening the set screws or compression rings or lock nuts. I got hit bad in a ceiling by 277 off of a 1/2" EMT because the fitting broke free & the conduit was floating with no ground path.
> 
> Well there was a ground, ME! conduit, ME & air duct.
> 
> Me fall down off ladder onto concrete floor.
> 
> Me left work that day and sat on a bar stool and drank.
> 
> If I ever run into the "so called" electrician who installed that conduit prior to me touching it, I will punch him in the face. :thumbsup:
> 
> Then I will punch him in the face again for doing horrible 277/480 splices in the J box that came undone to have caused this potentially fatal issue in the first place.



"Bob is the fastest pipe runner you got on the job he loves running pipe and will save lots of man hours"

"Joe is a good pipe bender but he's slow as hell"

"Hey bob I need 300' of 1" EMT from this panel to this can"."okay I'll do it"



"Hey joe I need 300' of 1" EMT from this panel to this can"."okay I'll do it"


Bob comes back later on and says okay it's done what next.

Okay Bob let's take a look at your work,all the couplings are loose locknuts and connectors too.....

Okay Bob I want all that stuff fixed.......

Meanwhile joe is almost done with his work,all his stuff is tight and looks good.

Meanwhile Bob is skipping every other coupling and is pissed...

Joe is finally ready for the next run.


So I give him the job I had set up for Bob ,.

Bob comes back and says he's done again,,,,,,,,,I tell Bob if I find one loose coupling he's going back to the shop to be "FIRED" he says okay let me double check my work..

Meanwhile The PM show up and wants to know why I'm busting bobs balls,so I tell him why he was so fast,The PM Goes back to the shop to cut him his check he comes back and fires Bob and gives Joe a raise.


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## MHElectric

There is a good lesson here. 

Pull a ground wire in your pipe. Simple as that. 

Yes, its code not to do so in emt, and yes, if you tighten everything up good you wont have this problem. But in all the remodels and service work ive done, I always ALWAYS run into pipes that have broke loose once you open up these old ceilings. It never fails, just like an open j-box, it will be there.

I dont pull a ground in pipe because its code or because I dont trust my work, I do it because ive seen what happens when a short to ground happens and the pipe isn't making a good connection to ground. This can very easily be fixed by pulling a ground.


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## Sparky J

Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, I really see no reason not to. As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


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## Nom Deplume

Sparky J said:


> Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, I really see no reason not to. As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


It's not the crappy fittings, it's the crappy workmanship. :no:


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## Magnettica

Sparky J said:


> Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, I really see no reason not to. As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


It has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with cost. Copper isn't cheap, and neither are my football and hockey tickets. Then again, I don't install too much EMT so this isn't an issue for me.


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## FrunkSlammer

What is an EMT?








Seriously this week I had to bend some 1/2" and 1" and could barely remember how, I had to get my phone out and google it. I never do pipework.. it's all about the cables baby!


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## jeepman

Don't have my code book In front of me. But didn't it get added to a section that states as ground must be pulled now for this very situation? I have always pulled a ground


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## chewy

They have done this in a 1960s school Im working on. Metal conduits in ceiling with clamps in the panel to the earth bus, not very common around here. Anything I touch I have to run an earth to as per the contract. Silly way to do in my opinion as the conduit is rusted away in some spots. Been around every GPO and belled out earth and neutral and found a couple of opens.


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## electricmanscott

Sparky J said:


> Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, I really see no reason not to. As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


Spoken like an employee. :thumbsup:


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## BytheBook

Our company policy is to only run mcap, mc, or any raceway system with ground already ran to eliminate this user error problem. He won't let us ever run conduit because of this.


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## macmikeman

Romex rules. Plus its about time the code requires afci protection for all commercial wiring. fair is fair, except to really make it fair, require that all the old defective afci's that have been foisted on the "other" electricians must all be used so there won't be any wasted ones filling up the landfills and causing global warming.


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## HARRY304E

BytheBook said:


> Our company policy is to only run mcap, mc, or any raceway system with ground already ran to eliminate this user error problem. He won't let us ever run conduit because of this.


Which does not eliminate the problem of arcing at loosely fitted couplings and connectors.


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## BytheBook

HARRY304E said:


> Which does not eliminate the problem of arcing at loosely fitted couplings and connectors.


We only use snap in UL listed fittings (no locknuts)


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## HARRY304E

BytheBook said:


> We only use snap in UL listed fittings (no locknuts)


What about all the set screws.?


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## SparkyDino

BytheBook said:


> Our company policy is to only run mcap, mc, or any raceway system with ground already ran to eliminate this user error problem. He won't let us ever run conduit because of this.


The company must not consider you electricians then if he's so worried about "user error" with you installing electrical raceways incorrectly.


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## aktrapper

@by the book
Your employer must be a very legal istic person. 
I can't imagine not being able to run emt .
:-X


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## SparkyDino

aktrapper said:


> @by the book
> Your employer must be a very legal istic person.
> I can't imagine not being able to run emt .
> :-X


it is mostly what we install here in Chi-Town area :thumbsup:


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## BababooeyHTJ

Lol

Yeah, no one here has ever forgotten to tighten a fitting or a locknut as much as they should have. Some of you guys are ridiculous. 

I really should hope that the extra ground isn't breaking the bank. Then again I see how most of you electricians that do commercial remodels are. :whistling2:


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## HackWork

Sparky J said:


> Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, *I really see no reason not to. *As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


The reason I see not to is because it's throwing money away. 



BababooeyHTJ said:


> Lol
> 
> Yeah, no one here has ever forgotten to tighten a fitting or a locknut as much as they should have. Some of you guys are ridiculous.
> 
> I really should hope that the extra ground isn't breaking the bank. Then again I see how most of you electricians that do commercial remodels are. :whistling2:


I forget to tighten ground splices just as often as I forget to tighten EMT fittings.


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## five.five-six

Sparky J said:


> Always pull a ground lazy ass like MHE said, I really see no reason not to. As crappy as some if these fittings are nowadays.


Pfft, Only cheepos pull grounds in EMT.

I always run everything in GRC, because I really see no reason not to.


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## chicken steve

sure, lets run all resi wiring in GRC then....:thumbsup:~CS~


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## five.five-six

chicken steve said:


> sure, lets run all resi wiring in GRC then....:thumbsup:~CS~


I really see no reason not to.


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## dronai

Do it right and you don't need a ground wire.


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## MHElectric

Some guys lean to the left (cheap work), some guys lean to the right (build it so it lasts forever). Most of us are somewhere in the middle. You need to find out for yourself where you stand.

Ive been known to slap some jobs together with duct tape and gorilla glue, and ive done some stuff that was WAY above and beyond. My personal preference is to err on the side of good judgement. Whatever I chose to do in each situation is usually dictated by how safe it is and if I feel like I can walk away from it without a guilty conscience. It varies for each situation.

I personally will pull a ground, but if you chose not to and you install your pipe correctly, you are fully within a code compliant installation.


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## gnuuser

running a ground inside emt may sound like a waste to many of you guys. but failing to do so leaves out a safety line.
in our factory we always run ground conductors. 
I have seen too many lengths of conduit damaged by some f***tard on a forklift.
even with tightened training on forklift drivers many of the loads they are handling vary widely in weight making braking distance and proper timing a real trial.
and a lot of times some people use them when they aren't authorized
we only find out about the damage later often during periodic grounds inspections


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## SparkyDino

gnuuser said:


> running a ground inside emt may sound like a waste to many of you guys. but failing to do so leaves out a safety line.
> in our factory we always run ground conductors.
> I have seen too many lengths of conduit damaged by some f***tard on a forklift.
> even with tightened training on forklift drivers many of the loads they are handling vary widely in weight making braking distance and proper timing a real trial.
> and a lot of times some people use them when they aren't authorized
> we only find out about the damage later often during periodic grounds inspections


sounds like you need better folk lift drivers, or better shop electricians who can run your pipe out of the way of the fork lift routes:laughing:


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## Shockdoc

I hate ground wires in a metallic system, I even exclude them in fixture whips by cutting the greenfield to 6'. In a metal building with metal framing I would imagine even if a coupling of connecter was lose or broken, the supports and framing connected together would bring the fault back to the grounding path.


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## SparkyDino

Shockdoc said:


> I hate ground wires in a metallic system, I even exclude them in fixture whips by cutting the greenfield to 6'. In a metal building with metal framing I would imagine even if a coupling of connecter was lose or broken, the supports and framing connected together would bring the fault back to the grounding path.


I did some work at Caterpillar here many years ago, at a piece of equipment they would drill holes in the condulet's, push an EGC thru and bond it to the I-beam locally with malleable iron beam clamps.


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## Maple_Syrup25

If you pull a ground you can use it as a fish later!


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## chicken steve

I used to crank everything down, until it was made clear that 110.14 involves UL486 

Now i carry a torque wrench

but i still have problems with the term *'cold flow'* 

any enlightenment from you sleuths appreciated 

~CS~


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## Michigan Master

Nom Deplume said:


> It's not the crappy fittings, it's the crappy workmanship. :no:


Poor fittings and bad workmanship are not the only causes. I work in a factory and our company policy is to always pull a ground wire. You'd be _absolutely_ amazed at what and how some things get destroyed (and of course it's never reported). 

There isn't *anything* in the ceiling they can't get with a fork truck and a stack of racks: busway, crane rails, sprinkler heads (at least with the sprinkler system it's a lot harder for the soaking wet guy on the fork truck to claim it wasn't him). :laughing:


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## SparkyDino

Michigan Master said:


> Poor fittings and bad workmanship are not the only causes. I work in a factory and our company policy is to always pull a ground wire. You'd be _absolutely_ amazed at what and how some things get destroyed (and of course it's never reported).


crossing guards & spot walkers with folk lifts?


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## Sparkin

BytheBook said:


> Our company policy is to only run mcap, mc, or any raceway system with ground already ran to eliminate this user error problem. He won't let us ever run conduit because of this.


Jeeze, for the last year I could of gotton away with only a level, tape measure, pencil, bender, and a screw driver / channel locks. Bending pipe and creating raceways is fun once you figure it out. I did have a nice little bone pile though in the beginning. LOL


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## BBQ

jeepman said:


> Don't have my code book In front of me. But didn't it get added to a section that states as ground must be pulled now for this very situation? I have always pulled a ground


No NEC requirement to do so.


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## sbrn33

BytheBook said:


> Our company policy is to only run mcap, mc, or any raceway system with ground already ran to eliminate this user error problem. He won't let us ever run conduit because of this.


You are kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding.


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## macmikeman

Sparkin said:


> Jeeze, for the last year I could of gotton away with only a level, tape measure, pencil, bender, and a screw driver / channel locks. Bending pipe and creating raceways is fun once you figure it out. I did have a nice little bone pile though in the beginning. LOL


Neat. Which one of those above mentioned tools did you make your cuts with?

Probably the pencil right?


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## BBQ

A poor job is a poor job. 

If the installer cannot, or will not tighten a fitting properly they likely won't make up splices properly either. I have seen plenty of poorly spliced wire EGCs.

I generally pull a wire EGC but not always and I hope the NEC does not start requireing it. So far they have used commonsense and have refused each proposal to require a wire type EGC in all applications.


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## Sparkin

macmikeman said:


> Neat. Which one of those above mentioned tools did you make your cuts with?
> 
> Probably the pencil right?


Howed you know?


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## macmikeman

Sparkin said:


> Howed you know?


Same thing I do ever since the hacksaw blade lost all it's teeth.


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## Sparkin

Hacksaw? What is this 1920? Lol.


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## BBQ

Michigan Master said:


> Poor fittings and bad workmanship are not the only causes. I work in a factory and our company policy is to always pull a ground wire. You'd be _absolutely_ amazed at what and how some things get destroyed (and of course it's never reported).
> 
> There isn't *anything* in the ceiling they can't get with a fork truck and a stack of racks: busway, crane rails, sprinkler heads (at least with the sprinkler system it's a lot harder for the soaking wet guy on the fork truck to claim it wasn't him). :laughing:


I would not be surprised, but a fork truck ripping out a conduit is just as capable of ripping a wire EGC out of a connection. 

None of our work is destruction proof.


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## Haxwoper

aktrapper said:


> Almost started a fire....they had solid 12 running an overloaded lighting circuit.....in a music store.
> The hot shorted to ground ...the emt ....and because it was not a good path back to the panel .....the electrons tried to jump onto the other emt via the screw that was touching the grounded emt ....the screw held the pipe strap for the ungrounded emt.
> Could have been bad....
> 
> View attachment 30002


This is why I always make sure that connectors are installed with the locknuts nice and hand tight.


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## Meadow

Skipping ahead, one more reason to run an egc in conduit.


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## Haxwoper

meadow said:


> Skipping ahead, one more reason to run an egc in conduit.


Nonsense.


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## Michigan Master

BBQ said:


> I would not be surprised, but a fork truck ripping out a conduit is just as capable of ripping a wire EGC out of a connection.
> 
> None of our work is destruction proof.


Very true, however I've seen many more cases of damaged pipe with the conductors still perfectly intact than I have instances where they've totally destroyed the entire circuit. If they've hit something but think it's still "okay" they won't say anything, so we often don't get it fixed until we happen to run across it. 

Hell, even if they hit something and it's definitely _not_ okay, they still don't usually come forward. Last spring we had a fork truck driver rip a 200A bus plug off a bus bar (it was still hanging by the conduit and threaded rod). That plug fed the air compressor and as a result shut down plant production within a matter of minutes. All drivers we questioned by management and denied hitting anything... We've had enough of these instances that we actually hang PVC awareness barriers underneath busway now.


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## Haxwoper

Michigan Master said:


> Very true, however I've seen many more cases of damaged pipe with the conductors still perfectly intact than I have instances where they've totally destroyed the entire circuit. If they've hit something but think it's still "okay" they won't say anything, so we often don't get it fixed until we happen to run across it.


On that same note, I've seen many splice boxes/troughs in which the EGC splices have pretty much come apart completely. You know how it is when you have huge splices in troughs, people come by and add something and soon enough you have (14) #12's under a blue gray wirenut, with a few of them not making continuity at all.

It's just the ground, no one cares. Or no one knows until it's needed to clear a fault.

The difference is that a broken pipe should be fixed by the customer/owner of the building. If something goes wrong, it's on them. A loose ground splice isn't something they would know about.


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## ponyboy

I think people are a product of their environment and base their practices off of experience. Personally I have seen conduits shredded maintaining no continuity of ground but the conductors are unharmed. I've also had the worst, most terrifying shock of my life from a conduit system with no EGC (my fault, yes, but all the same). 
On the other hand I've never seen a failed ground connection yet. This is probably because I've mostly worked in the type of places where guys don't just shove another 12 green into a big blue with 10 other ones. Also I've been in construction most my life and am doing the install not maintaining it. 
As a maintenance man at a big tractor factory I just do the best I can


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## Haxwoper

ponyboy said:


> On the other hand I've never seen a failed ground connection yet. This is probably because I've mostly worked in the type of places where guys don't just shove another 12 green into a big blue with 10 other ones. Also I've been in construction most my life and am doing the install not maintaining it.


That's it right there. If you were to go back in 30 years you would see a big difference.

I've spent a lot of time doing either service work or renovations in malls, you wouldn't believe how bad it could get.


The way I feel about broken pipes with unharmed conductors inside is that they should be fixed. If the building owner doesn't want to fix it, then the potential problem is on him. I'm not going to throw out hundreds or thousands of dollars on copper just to cover for a future accident in which someone doesn't want to pay me to fix properly.


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## ponyboy

Broken pipes should 100% absolutely be fixed. The reality though is if no one saw it happen then no one knows shít. The fork truck drivers who barely made it past the drug screen know they're ass is gone with one incident so why would they say anything? 

I agree with BBQ, we need to ban electricity in all it's forms before we all kill ourselves


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## Haxwoper

ponyboy said:


> Broken pipes should 100% absolutely be fixed. The reality though is if no one saw it happen then no one knows shít. The fork truck drivers who barely made it past the drug screen know they're ass is gone with one incident so why would they say anything?


They should have maintenance people on staff.













:laughing::thumbup:


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## ponyboy

They could wear uniforms and walk around the plant with binoculars looking for security breaches in the grounding system


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## BBQ

ponyboy said:


> I agree with BBQ, we need to ban electricity in all it's forms before we all kill ourselves


I knew you were smart. :thumbsup:


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## Michigan Master

Haxwoper said:


> The way I feel about broken pipes with unharmed conductors inside is that they should be fixed. If the building owner doesn't want to fix it, then the potential problem is on him


Who said the building owner doesn’t want to fix it? That’s not the reasoning behind this logic.

The problem is fork truck drivers don’t report the damage they cause. There is nobody following them around 24/7 watching to see what they crash into next. When we see it, we fix it. When someone else sees it, we get assigned a work order and we fix it.



Haxwoper said:


> I'm not going to throw out hundreds or thousands of dollars on copper just to cover for a future accident in which someone doesn't want to pay me to fix properly.


If the customer build spec requires it (like ours does), you should include the cost of the additional wire in your bid; that might save you some money. 

Accidents that cause damage can’t be scheduled for repair until *AFTER* it’s been discovered there was an accident. Once again, fork truck drivers don’t like to report accidents. 



Haxwoper said:


> They should have maintenance people on staff.


We have licensed electricians on staff 24/7.



Haxwoper said:


> On that same note, I've seen many splice boxes/troughs in which the EGC splices have pretty much come apart completely. You know how it is when you have huge splices in troughs, people come by and add something and soon enough you have (14) #12's under a blue gray wirenut, with a few of them not making continuity at all.


We are also the ones doing the installations; we can control the quality of our workmanship. What we can’t control as easily is fork truck drivers.


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## Mshea

I don't know how many of you have done work in patient care areas in hospitals but bonding is very critical and all the EMT has Bond wires in them as well.
A couple of years ago now we had a new hospital patient care building. The building has no treatment facilities, only caree rooms from maternity to critical care of cardiac patients etc.
I failed the forst 3 inspections for loose set screws and connectors. 200 union electricians and I could not get through a single room without finding several loose set screws and hardly a single AC-90 connector that was tight enough. Experience has shown that reference ground tests do not pass with loose connectors or set screws but how can it be fixed after the walls are boarded.
It took the electrical crew about 2 weeks to get on their A game but once I had rejected enough of the work that it was obvious I am looking closely that for the next 2 years there were no more loose set screws. I also had a guy running emt for me on a building control job. He had a lot of turmoil in his life and would work as a roofer on sunny days. He typically came to the jobsite around 2:30 to 3:00 and I would give him a buch of work to do. Next day it was always done so I cam to believe he was a very fast worker. As soon as we started pulling wire it becae obvious why ge got so much done. He only tightend 1 set screw. My superintendant had him come in for 2 days for free to tighten set screws and then fired him. To my knowledge he stopped working on the tools and went on to sell custom cover plates.


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## BBQ

Mshea said:


> I don't know how many of you have done work in patient care areas in hospitals but bonding is very critical and all the EMT has Bond wires in them as well.
> .



We have the same rules, and the NFPA considers the raceway the more important of the two grounding means.


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## Jlarson

ponyboy said:


> They could wear uniforms and walk around the plant with binoculars looking for security breaches in the grounding system


Does the grounding system have nuts that need fondling? They could get the TSA to do it :laughing:


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## oldtimer

Jlarson said:


> Does the grounding system have nuts that need fondling? They could get the TSA to do it :laughing:


Never mind the T S A . Check this out !

http://goo.gl/Eyw97S


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## Shockdoc

I still won't pull a ground, a properly wired system should have no current to ground unless a fault occurs. Majority of my EMT work is run through and secured to grounded framing members. Running a ground is basically throwing money away.


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## bartstop

Shockdoc said:


> I still won't pull a ground, a properly wired system should have no current to ground unless a fault occurs. Majority of my EMT work is run through and secured to grounded framing members. Running a ground is basically throwing money away.



Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole point of the ground wire is to ensure the overcurrent device operates properly. I pull a ground through EVERY conduit. PERIOD. Leaving the ground wire out is cutting corners in my book.


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## MTW

bartstop said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole point of the ground wire is to ensure the overcurrent device operates properly. I pull a ground through EVERY conduit. PERIOD. Leaving the ground wire out is cutting corners in my book.


Ahhh.....no. :no:


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## bartstop

MTW said:


> Ahhh.....no. :no:


250.2 Definitions.

Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. An intentionally
constructed, low-impedance electrically conductive path designed
and intended to carry current under ground-fault conditions
from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system to
the electrical supply source and that facilitates the operation of
the overcurrent protective device or ground-fault detectors on
high-impedance grounded systems.


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## Haxwoper

bartstop said:


> 250.2 Definitions.
> 
> Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. An intentionally
> constructed, low-impedance electrically conductive path designed
> and intended to carry current under ground-fault conditions
> from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system to
> the electrical supply source and that facilitates the operation of
> the overcurrent protective device or ground-fault detectors on
> high-impedance grounded systems.


He is saying no to the "cutting corners" thing you mentioned.

The raceway makes a better EGC than a wire. It's more than enough, and it's certainly not cutting corners.


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## MTW

All metal raceways are listed for grounding.


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## Next72969

bartstop said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole point of the ground wire is to ensure the overcurrent device operates properly. I pull a ground through EVERY conduit. PERIOD. Leaving the ground wire out is cutting corners in my book.


 not tightening set screws and locknuts is cutting corners. People who dont cheat that way dont need to pull a ground


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