# How does the customer know power is back?



## Waliegater (Aug 4, 2009)

For those who have installed generator interlocks (ie.. interlockkit.com), do you install anything to let the customer know when the power has returned?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Waliegater said:


> For those who have installed generator interlocks (ie.. interlockkit.com), do you install anything to let the customer know when the power has returned?


About the only way to legally do that is to install a second service disconnect.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

when the neighbors lights come back on


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Because the neighbors lights come on


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Waliegater said:


> For those who have installed generator interlocks (ie.. interlockkit.com), do you install anything to let the customer know when the power has returned?


 WHAT IS AN A T S FOR ? AUTOMATIC Transfer Switch !!!!

DUH !


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> WHAT IS AN A T S FOR ? AUTOMATIC Transfer Switch !!!!
> 
> DUH !


 Did you read the OP? The question is about an manual interlock used as a manual transfer switch.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Waliegater said:


> For those who have installed generator interlocks (ie.. interlockkit.com), do you install anything to let the customer know when the power has returned?


Yes, a indicator light.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

backstay said:


> Yes, a indicator light.


Which part of 230.82 allows that? :jester:



> *230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service
> Disconnect.* Only the following equipment shall be
> permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service
> disconnecting means:
> ...


As I mentioned, code wise you would need a second service disconnecting means to supply the indicator lamp.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Which part of 230.82 allows that? :jester:
> 
> As I mentioned, code wise you would need a second service disconnecting means to supply the indicator lamp.


The service disconnect is on the pole away from the house around here. So 230.82 does not apply.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You could set a small FSS and an indicator light, bell, meter or what ever.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

backstay said:


> The service disconnect is on the pole away from the house around here. So 230.82 does not apply.


 it applies, just not to your subpanel under discussion


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Which part of 230.82 allows that? :jester:
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned, code wise you would need a second service disconnecting means to supply the indicator lamp.


230.82 (2) would allow you to have some fuses and an indicator lamp.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bbsound said:


> 230.82 (2) would allow you to have some fuses and an indicator lamp.


Nope.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

brian john said:


> You could set a small FSS and an indicator light, bell, meter or what ever.


FSS? as in fused safety switch?

Yes, exactly as long as it is service rated and installed as a service disconnect.

We sometimes have to do that to supply fire alarm systems to make the local Fire Department happy.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

If they have neighbors close by then have them check to see when power comes back on.


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## CraigV (May 12, 2011)

One of the interlock companies was including an inductive sensor alarm with their kits, but indicated that they'd stop including them when stock was depleted. Not sure if this was because they sucked or for some other reason. But the concept was sound and would meet NEC as there's no electrical connection to the service.


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## rltomkinson (Aug 6, 2011)

An indicator light between the existing service disconnect and the manual interlock should suffice without violating 230.82. Of course, it would be always on.


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

How about a current sensor and a low voltage (LED) on the line side of the breaker?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

TimChaput69 said:


> How about a current sensor and a low voltage (LED) on the line side of the breaker?


How is it going to sense current when the main is off?


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

BBQ said:


> FSS? as in fused safety switch?
> 
> Yes, exactly as long as it is service rated and installed as a service disconnect.
> 
> We sometimes have to do that to supply fire alarm systems to make the local Fire Department happy.



WTF is the difference between what I said and this? 
Sorry I did not provide engineered prints to detail what I was saying.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Bbsound said:


> WTF is the difference between what I said and this?
> Sorry I did not provide engineered prints to detail what I was saying.


 No need for engineered drawing, a simple cad file will do. 

You had said this 



> 230.82 (2) would allow you to have some fuses and an indicator lamp.


There is nothing in 230.82(2) that allows taping the service conductors for an indicator.


Brain had said this



> You could set a small FSS and an indicator light, bell, meter or what ever.


Assuming Brian was talking about a service rated fused disconnect switch with proper service bonding he would be adding a second service disconnect which would make 230.82 meaningless as the indicator would be connected to a branch circuit, not directly to service conductors.


Bust my balls if you want, but these kinds of NEC subtleties can cause a failed inspection which generally costs money to fix.


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> How is it going to sense current when the main is off?


Put the doughnut before the main, between the meter and the main breaker then use a light that draws power from the CT or you could just use an analog meter to see if there is POCO power present. This way there is no cutting the feeds.


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## TimChaput69 (Nov 14, 2011)

TimChaput69 said:


> Put the doughnut before the main, between the meter and the main breaker then use a light that draws power from the CT or you could just use an analog meter to see if there is POCO power present. This way there is no cutting the feeds.


What a minute...my main must have been off!!! There would be no current if there is no draw...ok give me a break its kinda like Friday!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

If for some oddball reason you had ready access to a PT, you could legally use that to power an indicator light. But seeing how cheap a service rated disconnect is, it don't make a whole lot of sense to do it.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> But seeing how cheap a service rated disconnect is, it don't make a whole lot of sense to do it.


Exactly, you just have to remember to wire as a service disco with a GEC connection, a bonding jumper and raceway bonding. Not a real big deal.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Did you read the OP? The question is about an manual interlock used as a manual transfer switch.


 
(For those who have installed generator interlocks) (ie.. interlockkit.com), 

Does this stipulate that it is MANUAL ??????

I must have misunderstood the O P .

My Bad ! :whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Turn on a few light switches that are not working when the generator is running.. power comes on.. those lights will work...

This is if you have dedicated loads for just the generator..


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## masonc (Nov 6, 2012)

How does an ATS achieve line monitoring? I usually see taps off the main lugs and fuses.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

masonc said:


> How does an ATS achieve line monitoring? I usually see taps off the main lugs and fuses.


 They do use taps, but those are allowed under _Exception 4 _or_ 5_ in BBQs post.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a "cable limiter" in real life, and I don't know how much they cost, but it almost sounds like you could tap into these and then right into a lamp. 

-John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Big John said:


> They do use taps, but those are allowed under Exception 5 in BBQs post for load management or standby power systems.
> 
> Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a cable limiter


Cable limiters are pretty much specific to utility side of things in my experience sometimes customer distribution. They're short circuit protection only usually used to keep a shorted cable in a service lateral from taking out the whole transformer and other customers or in parallel laterals to prevent one cable from dumping the whole service.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

How long have those been around? You'd think that'd be standard fare on hospital feeds and data centers and other critical loads....

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I have seen them in use in Boston in 1960s era buildings


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Look out the window, or put in a subpanel with an interlock in it. Rest of the lights in the house come on then your power is on, no worries about them overloading the generator either.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I think they are common in areas with network distribution probably for quite some time.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bbsound said:


> WTF is the difference between what I said and this?
> Sorry I did not provide engineered prints to detail what I was saying.


Because I am an expert:blink::no::laughing:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I always call an outage in to the power company and the computer guy asks if I want them to call me when power is restored.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> (For those who have installed generator interlocks) (ie.. interlockkit.com),
> 
> Does this stipulate that it is MANUAL ??????
> 
> ...


An interlock kit is a mechanical device that "interlocks" the main breaker and the generator breaker. It prevents both from being in the on position at the same time. It is always a manual device.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a "cable limiter" in real life, and I don't know how much they cost, but it almost sounds like you could tap into these and then right into a lamp.
> 
> -John


Most of the power plants I've worked on have some sort of 'cable limiter'. Mainly because they drastically reduce the fault current when the gens are synched to the utility. 

A line reactor used with a VFD is a form of cable limiter. 

Around here, they can be seen on power poles with long lines out in the middle of nowhere.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Round here the neighborhood generally comes alive with activity when power is restored. Also the street lights are a dead giveaway. If the customer is that oblivious to the real world you may want to consider a smart switch ....


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nolabama said:


> Round here the neighborhood generally comes alive with activity when power is restored. Also the street lights are a dead giveaway. If the customer is that oblivious to the real world you may want to consider a smart switch ....


Some places in the real world don't have street lights. We call it rural.


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

If you had a newer digital readout poco meter, it would show the display when power was returned.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

micromind said:


> Most of the power plants I've worked on have some sort of 'cable limiter'. Mainly because they drastically reduce the fault current when the gens are synched to the utility....


 Is that all the same type of animal?

The "cable limiters" I linked to sounded like one-shot protection devices, though I honestly have no idea. But that would be a bit different than a series reactor.

-John


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## Gamit (Dec 30, 2009)

Waliegater said:


> For those who have installed generator interlocks (ie.. interlockkit.com), do you install anything to let the customer know when the power has returned?


The kits sold by the above website are not UL listed and are not allowed to be installed in my state (NJ). I have confirmed this with our DCA.


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## masonc (Nov 6, 2012)

micromind said:


> Most of the power plants I've worked on have some sort of 'cable limiter'. Mainly because they drastically reduce the fault current when the gens are synched to the utility.


People sync generators to utility power?


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## 347sparky (May 14, 2012)

It would be nice if someone made a non contact voltage tester where a donut could be installed on the feeder and an indicator light mounted in the panel can. Would probably need batteries and an on/off switch.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Gamit said:


> The kits sold by the above website are not UL listed and are not allowed to be installed in my state (NJ). I have confirmed this with our DCA.


They are tested by a NRTL though if I remember right. Are you saying NJ will only accept UL?


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

B4T said:


> Turn on a few light switches that are not working when the generator is running.. power comes on.. those lights will work...
> 
> This is if you have dedicated loads for just the generator..


How would this work with an interlock kit with the main off?:blink:


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## TTW (Sep 14, 2012)

Just tape a nice loud tic tracer to the incoming feed with some duct tape.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

TTW said:


> Just tape a nice loud tic tracer to the incoming feed with some duct tape.


"Power is back on. That little beepy thing you put in is going off in the panel. I need you to come and remove it.....now!":jester:


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## Gamit (Dec 30, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> They are tested by a NRTL though if I remember right. Are you saying NJ will only accept UL?


Yes sir


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

backstay said:


> Some places in the real world don't have street lights. We call it rural.


I call it one step short of hell. :laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> I call it one step short of hell. :laughing:


I guess those of us out here in the dark feel different about it.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> Some places in the real world don't have street lights. We call it rural.


 
Keep your head up.

I hear cable tv will be making its way there eventually:thumbup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> I call it one step short of hell. :laughing:


And the final step to hell is. Massachusetts :whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Keep your head up.
> 
> I hear cable tv will be making its way there eventually:thumbup:


The bunker has Sat and DSL.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

backstay said:


> The bunker has Sat and DSL.


 
Your bunker has most of the houses in Ohio beat.:thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

sparkyforlife said:


> How would this work with an interlock kit with the main off?:blink:


It can't.. that is why I said "dedicated loads".. meaning in a separate enclosure..


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

B4T said:


> It can't.. that is why I said "dedicated loads".. meaning in a separate enclosure..


Huh? In a residential home can you give me an example of what you are talking about?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

sparkyforlife said:


> Huh? In a residential home can you give me an example of what you are talking about?


The panel on the right is a sub panel containing all the circuits being backed up and is fed from a transfer switch. Transfer switch has POCO feed and generator feed. This is controlled from a 100A breaker in the panel to the left of the sub panel.

This is not like the OP's question. His was a manual inter lock. Same
principle though.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Which part of 230.82 allows that? :jester:
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned, code wise you would need a second service disconnecting means to supply the indicator lamp.


how about



> (4) *Instrument transformers *(current and* voltage*), impedance
> shunts, load management devices, *surge arresters*,
> and *Type 1 surge-protective devices*.



Im have also seen surge protection devices with voltage and led indication.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I_get_shocked said:


> how about
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it could be compliant as long as you install it per it's instructions.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Not reading the whole thread, but if they have a smart meter, it has an LED on it.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

This is why we always put gen loads in a separate sub and put the interlock on the breakers feeding the sub. You leave the main on and the rest of the house will come on and tell you its time to turn your gen off.

If a customer has the $$$ for a whole house gen, he will have the $$$ for an ATS.


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## mikeyrob (Mar 16, 2012)

i did one before for a guy on a mountain top, no other homes around. After running the scenarios of installing a separate service disconnect and stuff and the amount of limited space, just tapped an inline fuse with a small little button style indicator light on the side of the panel. When the light comes back on power is back on. :whistling2:


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