# Unemployed Machinists Union



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> ............At least they are not sitting home feeling sorry for themselves.........


As opposed to going out and looking for a job?


So, would employed machinists be considered rats? :whistling2:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

nah, they are just in solidarity with the Unemployed Electricians Union...otherwise known as 1/3 of the IBEW...

sorry guys...it was a softball and I just couldn't not hit it


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

oldman said:


> ........sorry guys...it was a softball and I just couldn't not hit it


 
More like T-ball.:whistling2:


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> As opposed to going out and looking for a job?
> 
> 
> So, would employed machinists be considered rats? :whistling2:



Well without knowing where these people are located... how could they go out and find a job if there are no jobs to be found. Yea yea yea... I know what everyone is thinking... "flip burgers if you have to"... easier said than done. 

The purpose of this "union" is for :

"The idea is that if millions of jobless join together and act as an organization, they are more likely to get Congress and the White House to provide the jobs that are urgently needed. They can also apply pressure for health insurance coverage, unemployment insurance and COBRA benefits and food stamps. An unemployed worker is virtually helpless if he or she has to act alone."

What an idea... huh? Let Americans help Americans. Who would have thought of such a thing?

Seems that some people blame this politician or that politician for wasting money on others such as; immigrants, other countries, etc..., and they still complain when Americans ask for help.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Except for one small flaw - the white house and congress can't 'create' jobs. They can funf jobs, through taxes, but they can't create jobs. They can't create demand.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Well without knowing where these people are located... how could they go out and find a job if there are no jobs to be found. Yea yea yea... I know what everyone is thinking... "flip burgers if you have to"... easier said than done............


How about getting trained for another vocation? Or is that too degrading? "I'm a machinist, dammit! I'm not gonna do anything else!"

Is there work elsewhere in the country? Or is moving automatically out of the question? "I was a machinist at that closed-up factory.... someone needs to buy it, open it, and hire me!"

If there a simply, absolutely no jobs at all, what are all those little boxes in the newspaper every under "Help Wanted" doing there? 


When an animal in the wild suddenly finds no food available, it has three choices........ migrate, adapt, or die.




Chris21 said:


> ........"The idea is that if millions of jobless join together and act as an organization, they are more likely to get Congress and the White House to provide the jobs that are urgently needed. They can also apply pressure for health insurance coverage, unemployment insurance and COBRA benefits and food stamps. An unemployed worker is virtually helpless if he or she has to act alone.".......


What about the existing Union itself? You know, the one they joined when they got into the trade? Are they not going to help? Are they just turning their backs on these people? Are they just saying, "Sorry, you can't pay your dues anymore, so don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"?

Or are they now so ineffective that they are no longer useful and another union must be created to take it's place? (Wow, that sure sounded like what would happen in a free market........)


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How about getting trained for another vocation? Or is that too degrading? "I'm a machinist, dammit! I'm not gonna do anything else!"
> 
> Is there work elsewhere in the country? Or is moving automatically out of the question? "I was a machinist at that closed-up factory.... someone needs to buy it, open it, and hire me!"
> 
> ...


 
If a person is trained to work in a particular field is it right to fault him for looking to work in that field? Of course if a plant or factory close they should find work elsewhere. That isn't the point here. The machinist were one trade that was mentioned. This "union" is for ALL that are unemployed. So you're assuming these people are thinking that way without even talking to them.

As for moving... yes that is an option. But is it feasible when you're in your 50's, a kid in college, a house that's almost paid off and so on? It's tough enough to find someone that will hire you when you get older in your own city let alone another.

As for your "little boxes in the newspaper every under "Help Wanted" doing there"? statement. If 100 people are out of work and there are only 5 help wanted ad's... what happens to the other 95 people? 







480sparky said:


> What about the existing Union itself? You know, the one they joined when they got into the trade? Are they not going to help? Are they just turning their backs on these people? Are they just saying, "Sorry, you can't pay your dues anymore, so don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"?
> 
> Or are they now so ineffective that they are no longer useful and another union must be created to take it's place? (Wow, that sure sounded like what would happen in a free market........)



Actually no... of course each union is run differently... but unions do help the unemployed. My union does have my back. My union allows me to collect from a fund when I am out of work. My union allows me to continue with heath benefits long after I've been out of work. My union has been very good to it's members. I'm glad to play my union dues.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How about getting trained for another vocation? Or is that too degrading? "I'm a machinist, dammit! I'm not gonna do anything else!"
> 
> Is there work elsewhere in the country? Or is moving automatically out of the question? "I was a machinist at that closed-up factory.... someone needs to buy it, open it, and hire me!"
> 
> ...


I can hardly fathom how insensitive that post is to the plight of the millions of unemployed Americans across this country.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> .......... If 100 people are out of work and there are only 5 help wanted ad's... what happens to the other 95 people? ....


 
Already answered that one.





Chris21 said:


> Actually no... of course each union is run differently... but unions do help the unemployed. My union does have my back. My union allows me to collect from a fund when I am out of work. My union allows me to continue with heath benefits long after I've been out of work. My union has been very good to it's members. I'm glad to play my union dues.


SO in effect, there are unions out there who have turned their backs on their members? Provide no help, support, etc.?

Then maybe someone should organize a union to go tell that union what for.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How about getting trained for another vocation? Or is that too degrading? "I'm a machinist, dammit! I'm not gonna do anything else!"
> 
> Is there work elsewhere in the country? Or is moving automatically out of the question? "I was a machinist at that closed-up factory.... someone needs to buy it, open it, and hire me!"
> 
> ...





480sparky said:


> Already answered that one.


And you choose to ignore my reply to that answer. 







480sparky said:


> SO in effect, there are unions out there who have turned their backs on their members? Provide no help, support, etc.?
> 
> Then maybe someone should organize a union to go tell that union what for.


Not at all. Some unions may not offer ALL the benefits my union offers. Nice play on words to turn it around though... you get a gold star.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JayH said:


> I can hardly fathom how insensitive that post is to the plight of the millions of unemployed Americans across this country.


It's anti-union rhetoric. Sorta like how unions and it's members are corrupt, violent, lazy and so on.

People don't always think before they speak. And believe me it does go both ways, union and non-union.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> It's anti-union rhetoric. Sorta like how unions and it's members are corrupt, violent, lazy and so on.


 
Maybe so, but the majority of the unemployed belong to no union at all.

It just blows my mind how out of touch that post seemed.

There are absolutely *NO* want ads in the paper I get every morning that serves the East Bay area here in Northern CA. 

Vocational retraining for a 50 year old construction management employee?

What is he to do? Go back to college for two more years? Serve his internship again? Then be ready for retirement in five years? Move in with his eighty year old parents?

I don't have the answers, but at least these individuals are being proactive IMO.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

We are reaping the rewards of our policies from the 90's. NAFTA. Off shoring jobs. Allowing Mexicans to migrate across the border. Allowing our lumber mills and mines to close. Closing factories so we can get cheap junk made in China. UNLESS we start electing protectionist this country is done as an economic power. Everyone labels candidates such as Kucinich as radicals but they are the only ones that have the countries best interests at heart. The republicans wealthy first policies are a failure for the average American as are the democrats tree hugging, feminazi, left wing policies.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JayH said:


> I can hardly fathom how insensitive that post is to the plight of the millions of unemployed Americans across this country.





JayH said:


> Maybe so, but the majority of the unemployed belong to no union at all.
> 
> It just blows my mind how out of touch that post seemed.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. 

We don't live in the age where we could pack up a wagon and head west and hunt for food and make camp when we're tired anywhere we want. We need permits and licenses... and how do you afford that if you have no job? :laughing:

I'm a firm believer that each person has the ability prosper in this country. But sometimes we as a nation run into a problem through no fault of our own as individuals. Is it really wrong to ask for help?


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> As opposed to going out and looking for a job?
> 
> 
> :whistling2:


Jobs aren't that plentiful, I know 2 people that haven't been able to find work in there field. One, an electrician has taken one job at the dollar tree and one at 7-11 just to try to stay alive after his unemployment ran out.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jammerx37 said:


> Jobs aren't that plentiful, I know 2 people that haven't been able to find work in there field. One, an electrician has taken a one job at the dollar tree and one at 7-11 just to try to stay alive after his unemployment ran out.


Well, that's what I'm talking about.

If your chosen profession isn't paying, you need to find something that is.


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, that's what I'm talking about.
> 
> If your chosen profession isn't paying, you need to find something that is.


That's about survival and nothing else... Going from making 50 grand a year to 15 is disaster, plain and simple. 

I think its a great idea the unemployed join together to lobby congress to do something to help get the country get going again, and protect those that need protecting. 

I also know its is demeaning as hell to work at dollar tree for 7 bucks an hour after getting to a point in you life when you think you are successful. To work all your life and then get dealt a blow like a layoff is rough. The real wake up call to everybody is that you need to be saving a considerable nest egg to get through a downturn.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

oldman said:


> Except for one small flaw - the white house and congress can't 'create' jobs.


Sure, they can. They just can't create jobs that don't have an artificially created crutch under them.

I wonder how many of us have been flooded with a ton of work from all the homeowning road crews that have been tearing up all the streets at random for the past six months? I've been beating these guys off with a stick...not.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

jammerx37 said:


> That's about survival and nothing else... Going from making 50 grand a year to 15 is disaster, plain and simple.
> 
> I think its a great idea the unemployed join together to lobby congress to do something to help get the country get going again, and protect those that need protecting.
> 
> I also know its is demeaning as hell to work at dollar tree for 7 bucks an hour after getting to a point in you life when you think you are successful. To work all your life and then get dealt a blow like a layoff is rough. The real wake up call to everybody is that you need to be saving a considerable nest egg to get through a downturn.


A lot of people in this country have this mindset that if you fail it's your fault. Sometimes that isn't the case. Like the situation we are in now. You can hardly blame the workers of America for the failures this is country is going through. But it's easy to lay the blame on an individual and claim they are not doing their part. In reality they have been doing their part but waking up every morning, going to work, paying their bills and taxes and contributing to society. But once they are no longer able to do that it's their fault and only their fault they are no longer working. Of course there are situations where it would be your fault but at these times it isn't that much of the case.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> nah, they are just in solidarity with the Unemployed Electricians Union...otherwise known as 1/3 of the IBEW...
> 
> sorry guys...it was a softball and I just couldn't not hit it


True, the economy is in the ****ter and it's realistic to say 1/3 of the IBEW is unemployed. 

But, there's a much greater number on nonunion electricians on the bench, as there is ZERO new residential going up and you and I know that's where most of the beginners work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> Except for one small flaw - the white house and congress can't 'create' jobs. They can funf jobs, through taxes, but they can't create jobs. They can't create demand.


Yes they can - repeal NAFTA and impose tarriffs on imports. Immediate job creation.

All they're doing by using money is a band-aid on the real problem.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> Some unemployed Machinists thought it would be a good idea to organize for the sake of having a collective voice for out of work folks.
> 
> Maybe people like this would be a good resource for those in decision making areas of our government.
> 
> ...


Yea that sucks.......I personally would rather spend a little more money on something that is built in this country and not China.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JayH said:


> I can hardly fathom how insensitive that post is to the plight of the millions of unemployed Americans across this country.


When you have nothing to fall back on, like 480, you tend to resent those who have it a little better. The best he can do in this economy is a kitchen renovation in a circa '20's house filled with violations, then spends hours documenting it, because he's soooo busy. 

One man in a truck, and he fancy's himself a businessman, a republican, and exceptional. 

I throw out more material than he buys. I've forgotten more than he knows. He's small-time. Pay him no regard, he's on this board more than he's not.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Well, that's what I'm talking about.
> 
> If your chosen profession isn't paying, you need to find something that is.


... OR make it pay. But that solution is only for those who have balls. :whistling2:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> A lot of people in this country have this mindset that if you fail it's your fault. Sometimes that isn't the case. Like the situation we are in now. You can hardly blame the workers of America for the failures this is country is going through. But it's easy to lay the blame on an individual and claim they are not doing their part. In reality they have been doing their part but waking up every morning, going to work, paying their bills and taxes and contributing to society. But once they are no longer able to do that it's their fault and only their fault they are no longer working. Of course there are situations where it would be your fault but at these times it isn't that much of the case.


Cris you need to listen to www.NormanGoldman.com.

Everything that is going on is NOT the fault of some WORKERS.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jammerx37 said:


> That's about survival and nothing else... Going from making 50 grand a year to 15 is disaster, plain and simple.
> 
> I think its a great idea the unemployed join together to lobby congress to do something to help get the country get going again, and protect those that need protecting.
> 
> I also know its is demeaning as hell to work at dollar tree for 7 bucks an hour after getting to a point in you life when you think you are successful. To work all your life and then get dealt a blow like a layoff is rough. The real wake up call to everybody is that you need to be saving a considerable nest egg to get through a downturn.


 
Ever hear of the story, "The Ant and the Grasshopper?

*In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant walked by, grunting as he carried a plump kernel of corn.*
*"Where are you off to with that heavy thing?" asked the Grasshopper.*

*Without stopping, the Ant replied, "To our ant hill. This is the third kernel I've delivered today."*

*"Why not come and sing with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of working so hard?" *​ 
*"I am helping to store food for the winter," said the Ant, "and think you should do the same." *​ 
*"Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; "we have plenty of food." *​ 

*But the Ant went on its way and continued its work.*

*The weather soon turned cold. All the food lying in the field was covered with a thick white blanket of snow that even the grasshopper could not dig through. Soon the Grasshopper found itself dying of hunger.*

*He staggered to the ants' hill and saw them handing out corn from the stores they had collected in the summer.*

*Then the Grasshopper knew: It is best to prepare for the days of necessity.* 


Of course, there are some that want to rewrite the story.​ 
*The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. *​ 
*CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, "It's Not Easy Being Green." *​ 
*Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, "We shall overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.*


*Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. *


*The ant loses the case. The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.*


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Ever hear of the story, "The Ant and the Grasshopper?
> 
> *In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant walked by, grunting as he carried a plump kernel of corn.*
> *"Where are you off to with that heavy thing?" asked the Grasshopper.*
> ...



Ok... obviously that is a crack at democrats. So what are you getting at? It's ALL of the democrats fault that we are a nation are in the state we are in? That's a very ignorant thing to say. Yes you workers out there that are out or work! It's the democrats fault. But then I would expect that... blame them! It's all their fault. Uh yeah.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Ok... obviously that is a crack at democrats. So what are you getting at? .........


 
No, it's a shot at people who make $78 an hour, buy $850,000 homes with ARMs, have a Hummer, three motorcycles, two four-wheelers and a jet ski, take 6 week vacation every year and fly to Europe.............

Then get laid off and whine and cry they can't live on $378/week unemployment.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No, it's a shot at people who make $78 an hour, buy $850,000 homes with ARMs, have a Hummer, three motorcycles, two four-wheelers and a jet ski, take 6 week vacation every year and fly to Europe.............
> 
> Then get laid off and whine and cry they can't live on $378/week unemployment.



Ok... so everyone that joined this "union", which is what the original topic is about... how many of them were making $78 a hour, have 3 motorcycles, a hummer and an $850,000 home? Sounds to me that you're just making these numbers up to make yourself feel better about it. Unless of course you have proof of this... which you should since you mentioning it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Ok... so everyone that joined this "union", which is what the original topic is about... how many of them were making $78 a hour, have 3 motorcycles, a hummer and an $850,000 home? Sounds to me that you're just making these numbers up to make yourself feel better about it. Unless of course you have proof of this... which you should since you mentioning it.


 
Where did I say they were union members making $78 an hour?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Where did I say they were union members making $78 an hour?



Where did I say that you said that? I asked... who are the people that joined the unemployment "union"... which I clearly stated was the topic of this post make the $78 a hour and house and motorcycle and ect ect ect.

Re-read the message and then come back to me.

:whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Where did I say that you said that? I asked... who are the people that joined the unemployment "union"... which I clearly stated was the topic of this post make the $78 a hour and house and motorcycle and ect ect ect.
> 
> Re-read the message and then come back to me.
> 
> :whistling2:


Where did I say these people who made $78 an hour joined this U²?

Please re-read what I'm asking and get back to me when you comprehend it.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Where did I say these people who made $78 an hour joined this U²?
> 
> Please re-read what I'm asking and get back to me when you comprehend it.



Then you're straying off the topic. And it is assumed that since you decided to make a post about this phantom $78 hour worker in the thread that deals with an unemployed "union" that that's what you are thinking. 

:blink:


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> No, it's a shot at people who make $78 an hour, buy $850,000 homes with ARMs, have a Hummer, three motorcycles, two four-wheelers and a jet ski, take 6 week vacation every year and fly to Europe.............
> 
> Then get laid off and whine and cry they can't live on $378/week unemployment.


Yeah I don't have any sympathy for anyone making over 150k and claiming to be suffering in the downturn. Should be saving 10% of your income and have enough fluid assets to get you by. I don't know any electrician making 160k a year... Union or non union. The only folks I know making that kinda of bean is my doctor and my dentist. Your right people who put themselves in that position get what they deserve.


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Ever hear of the story, "The Ant and the Grasshopper?
> 
> *In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant walked by, grunting as he carried a plump kernel of corn.*
> *"Where are you off to with that heavy thing?" asked the Grasshopper.*
> ...



Yeah and this is just the kinda political ranting you would get if you watched Sean Hannity and/or listened to Rush... Just crap to stir the pot really... 

Clinton has been out of office 9 years get over it...


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> We are reaping the rewards of our policies from the 90's. NAFTA. Off shoring jobs. Allowing Mexicans to migrate across the border. Allowing our lumber mills and mines to close. Closing factories so we can get cheap junk made in China. UNLESS we start electing protectionist this country is done as an economic power. Everyone labels candidates such as Kucinich as radicals but they are the only ones that have the countries best interests at heart. The republicans wealthy first policies are a failure for the average American as are the democrats tree hugging, feminazi, left wing policies.


+1:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But, there's a much greater number on nonunion electricians on the bench, as there is ZERO new residential going up and you and I know that's where most of the beginners work.


And a ton of the local non-union hands signed our Book1 after the economy tanked August before last. So it looks really bad on the local to have so many guys on the books, but you see, its all these non-union guys hoping for a hand up.

Every which way you look at it, it is ugly, from all perspectives, and for many hardworking local hands who took it in the can, it does not feel fair. Because believe me, there are alot of good hands on the books right now, even the knob-gobblers lost a few.


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## Advanced37 (Jan 11, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> True, the economy is in the ****ter and it's realistic to say 1/3 of the IBEW is unemployed.
> 
> But, there's a much greater number on nonunion electricians on the bench, as there is ZERO new residential going up and you and I know that's where most of the beginners work.



So I work with a lot of electrical contractors, so my first question is usually hows work going, layoffs etc... and by and large its been we have gotten rid of all the dead weight, and or we laid off such and such... 

Now before you go all union non union on me... my customers are at least 15:1 non union:union.... the union guys who aren't shoppies go back to the hall... the non union guys go to the unemployment line... or dollar tree... nobody seems to know where they are going next for sure...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Then you're straying off the topic. And it is assumed that since you decided to make a post about this phantom $78 hour worker in the thread that deals with an unemployed "union" that that's what you are thinking.
> 
> :blink:


Now you're even admitting you're making assumptions.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Now you're even admitting you're making assumptions.


 Yes. Within the topic of discussion in this particular thread which deals with the conversation at hand. Unlike you... who just throws nonsense out. You get another gold star for your little magic trick. Can you make yourself disappear too?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Yes. Within the topic of discussion in this particular thread which deals with the conversation at hand. Unlike you... who just throws nonsense out. You get another gold star for your little magic trick. Can you make yourself disappear too?


 
News flash, Skippy: Not every topic here stays on subject for your convenience.

Now, if you want folk who just throw nonsense out, stick around. There's plenty of members here who do that.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> News flash, Skippy: Not every topic here stays on subject for your convenience.
> 
> Now, if you want folk who just throw nonsense out, stick around. There's plenty of members here who do that.


 woo-hoo... you're easy. Now go to plumbers forum and talk about abortion. Chris: 1 480Sparky: 0


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> woo-hoo... you're easy. Now go to plumbers forum and talk about abortion. Chris: 1 480Sparky: 0


Glad you're keeping score. Some of us don't care... we've outgrown it.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Glad you're keeping score. Some of us don't care... we've outgrown it.


 Apparently you do 480...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Apparently you do 480...


 
According to............















or are you assuming again?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> According to............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Not only are you not a very good magician you're not much of a fisherman either. Get to practicing... I hear trout fishing in Iowa is somewhat of a good challenge.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Not only are you not a very good magician you're not much of a fisherman either. Get to practicing... I hear trout fishing in Iowa is somewhat of a good challenge.


 
You're pretty damn good at getting the thread off-topic, something you seem to disdain.

Seems odd.













And, did you answer my question?

Of course not.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're pretty damn good at getting the thread off-topic, something you seem to disdain.
> 
> Seems odd.
> 
> ...


 Hmmmm sounds like... ummm what's his name Uhhhh... oh yeah that's right... YOU! Reel her in peanut and give her another cast.


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## edward (Feb 11, 2009)

the economy will go down and up, down and up, it is just the way things work. this has been a hard wake up call for most people, but the simple truth is most people were living beyond their means. 

i live in the upper peninsula of michigan, work gets slow in feb and march, always, just the way it works. i learned when i started out in this trade that i had to plan for slow times and made sure my bills never were more then what i would make on unemployment. because i learned to live a little more simply i got through 2009 ok. did not make a lot of cash but i survived without giving anything up, worked on and off, and right now im lucky to be at work in another field, saving my extra cash to go to school to be a lineman. 

im not happy with the way things have turned out the last year and a half but thats life. you have to look at the problems and obstacles in your life, and find solutions to overcome them. sometimes we have to take some pretty hard knocks, but as long as you have food and covering, you really dont need a lot more. 

im only 23 though, i have a lot more options then a 55 year old guy that just lost his job with a family and house to support. i dont know what to say for anyone in that situation, keep your nose to the grindstone and find whatever work you can? i dunno. life is hard sometimes.

*edit* btw: enough stupid arguments.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> UNLESS we start electing protectionist this country is done as an economic power.


It won't work unless we completely stop exporting everything we make.

Once we impliment protectionism, every country will not allow our products into their country, because we ban theirs.

What are you going to do then?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Hmmmm sounds like... ummm what's his name Uhhhh... oh yeah that's right... YOU! Reel her in peanut and give her another cast.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> When you have nothing to fall back on, you tend to resent those who have it a little better.


Talk about a hypocrite, you take the cake.



> I throw out more material than he buys. I've forgotten more than he knows. He's small-time. Pay him no regard, he's on this board more than he's not.


 
This is how you know someone lost an argument. They can provide nothing of substance, and resort to a condensending, I'm better than you attitude.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No, it's a shot at people who make $78 an hour, buy $850,000 homes with ARMs, have a Hummer, three motorcycles, two four-wheelers and a jet ski, take 6 week vacation every year and fly to Europe.............
> 
> Then get laid off and whine and cry they can't live on $378/week unemployment.


This is such a crock - I NEVER flew to Europe.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is such a crock - I NEVER flew to Europe.


Do you have a Hummer?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> Do you have a Hummer?



It's true he never flew to Europe. I only know this because I house sat his $850,000 house while he took a CRUISE to Europe. And he gave me his hummer as payment for watching the house... so to answer your question he doesn't have a hummer either. :thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> And a ton of the local non-union hands signed our Book1 after the economy tanked August before last. So it looks really bad on the local to have so many guys on the books, but you see, its all these non-union guys hoping for a hand up.
> 
> Every which way you look at it, it is ugly, from all perspectives, and for many hardworking local hands who took it in the can, it does not feel fair. Because believe me, there are alot of good hands on the books right now, even the knob-gobblers lost a few.


How does nonunion sign book 1?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> It won't work unless we completely stop exporting everything we make.
> 
> Once we impliment protectionism, every country will not allow our products into their country, because we ban theirs.
> 
> What are you going to do then?


You think China and Japan are going to sell their computers to themselves? You think Mexico has a market for the products built there? The countries we trade with are NOT consumers, we are. Without the American market Mexico wouldn't HAVE a manufacturing sector save for novelty sombraro's. 

The US got along just fine when we made everything ourselves and lead the world in exports. I collect stuff made in USA that works perfectly fine. We have just about every natural resourse necessary that we don't need to import. Most of what we import as finished consumer goods is made from the raw materials we export! 

You know we import cars duty-free, but China and Japan still levvy a 16% import tax on Ford? IS that free trade? Every country we "free trade" with levvys an import tax on finished consumer goods we export, but we don't do the same in return. 

Like I said in a closed thread, rent or buy "Capatilism A Love Story." Look at the differences in tax rates and corporate law since the 40's and 50's... Reagan dropped the tax rates from 90% on the wealthy and tweaked some insurance laws to create what we now know as an "HMO" before then it was called medical insurance. Well this is trickle-down folks... anyone who calls himself a capatilist or a conservative republican or pro-business thought this was just grand, a little more for them. Well after 30 years of a tilted scale in favor of big business almost all the marbles are in just a few large jars, instead of all of us holding a nice sized bag...


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Guys it is pretty simple. 

If what your are doing isnt working out....change it, fix it, do something else.

If the boss man makes good money (big profit) so be it. Those whom complain about what the boss has, how much money he makes, etc. most generally dont have the guts or balls to try it themselves. 

Republicans generally represent a philosiphy whereas people should be responsible for themselves. You will reap what you sew.

Democrats generally represent a philosiphy wheras people should not be responsible for themselves. Everyone will reap a equal share of what everyone sews.

I work hard for what I have, and am dang proud of it. I have earned it the fair and square way. From my point of view, Republicans are the more responsible. 

If you work hard for your money, and are on the buisness side you understand what I am saying. 

If you work hard for your money and are on the ditch digging side, you disagree with my thoughts....:laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> How about getting trained for another vocation? Or is that too degrading? "I'm a machinist, dammit! I'm not gonna do anything else!"
> 
> Is there work elsewhere in the country? Or is moving automatically out of the question? "I was a machinist at that closed-up factory.... someone needs to buy it, open it, and hire me!"
> 
> ...


480, as usual, you're thinking individually. Sure, sure some guy can and will pull himself up by his bootstraps... but like it or not, everyone can't simply change vocations, get training in another field and just carry on. A loss of 100,000 jobs = 100,000 unemployed and wherever they end up settling job and housing-wise, they're going to be officially UNDERemployed.

And, like it or not 480 SOME PEOPLE aren't going to just take it lying down. This is not an acceptable state for a state to be in. 



> What about the existing Union itself? You know, the one they joined when they got into the trade? Are they not going to help? Are they just turning their backs on these people? Are they just saying, "Sorry, you can't pay your dues anymore, so don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"?
> 
> Or are they now so ineffective that they are no longer useful and another union must be created to take it's place? (Wow, that sure sounded like what would happen in a free market........)


Funny, if the contract called for their continued employment even if there was no work, everyone cries foul and says that's what's wrong with America and Unions today... but when the company cuts and runs it's the union's fault the workers are left high & dry.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Guys it is pretty simple.
> 
> If what your are doing isnt working out....change it, fix it, do something else.
> 
> If the boss man makes good money (big profit) so be it. Those whom complain about what the boss has, how much money he makes, etc. most generally dont have the guts or balls to try it themselves.


Ah there it is, the old "I'm entitled to everything including the decision on how bad I'm gonna screw my employees because I come first because employees are wimps afraid to do what I did" argument...

God I loved the look on the owner's face when I barge into his office with 90% signed pledge cards and announce he's the proud owner of a union shop. 

At first it was only 60% so we drove the holdouts (who were convinced the boss actually couldn't afford union scale) to see his house, his boats and his summer house in the Hamptons. That shop is still doing the same work but at better than double the compensation and the boss still has everything he has as far as I know...



> Republicans generally represent a philosiphy whereas people should be responsible for themselves. You will reap what you sew.
> 
> Democrats generally represent a philosiphy wheras people should not be responsible for themselves. Everyone will reap a equal share of what everyone sews.


Those positions are highly debatable. Fact is both parties have very few thin lines that separate them. 

Republicans seem to hold the philosiphy that the easier you make it for business to do business, the fewer regulations and protections, the better business can operate and become more profitable. They claim that will "trickle down." Well, since Reagen deregulated everything, where has that gotten us? $15,00 bucks an hour for a JW in Florida with no H&W? HMOs posting record profits though they have fewer customers? Exxon & Mobil merging into a legal monopoly, did it lower the price of gas?



> I work hard for what I have, and am dang proud of it. I have earned it the fair and square way. From my point of view, Republicans are the more responsible.


In the largest shops I've worked for, the owner generally didn't work at all. For certian, a shop owner with a few employees couldn't possibly work harder than the combined effort of all the employees.

As more and more employers take the attitude that it's all mine and you all can share the scraps, have you wondered how your or any other business is going to profit or even survive once most American employees are earning nothing? Where will you find customers? As it is now, and I think we've all seen this in Home Depot or Lowes, typical white-collar people buying electrical supplies and doing things like adding outlets (the sample display is right there, they even have a workshop to teach it) is out of their reach to hire a contractor... 




> If you work hard for your money, and are on the buisness side you understand what I am saying.
> 
> If you work hard for your money and are on the ditch digging side, you disagree with my thoughts....:laughing:


Well that says everything, doesn't it?


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

Just occurred to me, it would make for some interesting headlines when the union unemployed machinists start salting their merit unemployed cousins...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> Just occurred to me, it would make for some interesting headlines when the union unemployed machinists start salting their merit unemployed cousins...


 
Geez....... for a second there I thought that chick was drinking out of the sewer line.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

George Stolz said:


> Just occurred to me, it would make for some interesting headlines when the union unemployed machinists start salting their merit unemployed cousins...


...Ain't that a kick in the pants? :laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Republicans generally represent a philosiphy whereas people should be responsible for themselves. You will reap what you sew.
> 
> Democrats generally represent a philosiphy wheras people should not be responsible for themselves. Everyone will reap a equal share of what everyone sews.
> 
> ...


If you are such a great businessman you should at least learn how to spell "business":laughing:

OK lets not get into the difference between "sew" and "SOW":whistling2:

With that said, you seem to be spoon fed by the AM radio tabloid shows that Rupert Murdoch has a monopoly on*. *You should look into how much of the media this foreign born guy controls. You will feel like an idiot...

I understand how clear the lines are drawn in small or rural areas. People that are established in these places either have family farms (think farm aid) or a small business and think the people that cannot do the same are freeloaders or unmotivated.

People that work pay taxes on their wages and then pay taxes on what they make. If you have a business, odds are that you live a bit of a corporate life, and do not purchase much with "paycheck" money.

I can see how things may look in a small or rural area when you see someone with above average abilities sacrificing everything to operate a business and down the block, people living off of the government.
We have spent many years exporting the very jobs these people need for the sake of profiting a very few greedy people.

The poorest and neediest people I know call themselves Republicans not because they are business people, but because they are told on the one regional radio station they can get, and in Church or corner bar, that Democrats are pro-abortion and anti-American socialists. (What do you want to bet that most people dont even know what that is)

Capitalism (What do you want to bet that most people dont even know what that is) is a great tool and but, when too much of a good thing gets abused, we have to keep those that abuse in check.

Try to get yourself off of the tabloid radio programs and find out what the real Americans are doing in this country and not what Rupert Murdoch tells you.:thumbsup:

Machinists are a very technical and usually industry specific trade. It's hard to see an entire industry vanish and watch these people scrounge to make a living. I admire that they have the vision of a collective voice. 
God Bless Them!!

BTW,
The majority of non-construction local unions are associated with specific plants. It closes or consolidates when the plant closes.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> The purpose of this "union" is for :
> 
> "The idea is that if millions of jobless join together and act as an organization, they are more likely to get Congress and the White House to provide the jobs that are urgently needed. They can also apply pressure for health insurance coverage, unemployment insurance and COBRA benefits and food stamps. An unemployed worker is virtually helpless if he or she has to act alone."
> 
> ...


Any jobs congress provides with rare exception will be pork (spoiled pork) a poor expenditure and only give China, Russia and Saudi Arabia a bigger portion of our debt and therefore our children's future.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> Any jobs congress provides with rare exception will be pork (spoiled pork) a poor expenditure and only give China, Russia and Saudi Arabia a bigger portion of our debt and therefore our children's future.


Note to self:
Brush up on Macro Economics.......:thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Do you really know what our GDP is compared to our debt?

Its not much


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Guys it is pretty simple.
> 
> If what your are doing isnt working out....change it, fix it, do something else.
> 
> ...


If "boss man" is making good money... as you say. A profit. I would think there wouldn't be any lose or at very least little lose of jobs within that company. 

But remember the ditch diggers work for you. They are the one's making you a profit. It's not about the boss making too much money. Every worker should want their boss to make a lot of money. The problem is when the boss takes advantage of the the worker. 

And yet again... the real problem with this country is blaming the republicans or blaming the democrats. What we need to do is become united. Become the united as a country. Because as a nation we are a union.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

jrannis...

Im not sure what (read farm aid) means..... but WE (me, my wife, my parents) still run and operate our family farm. About 250 acres of hay, corn and cattle. WE RECIVE NONE, ZERO, ZILCH from government programs. We dont sign up for them. We make do on our own. If you farm or have a farm background, disregard the following....

IF YOU DONT HAVE A FARM BACKGROUND>>>>BLOW IT!!!

I have not been hand fed from AM talk radio.....I was raised in a conservative home where mom and dad got up in the morning, went to work, came home and did whatever needed done at home. If we didnt have money for it, we didnt buy it. We worked (still do) damn hard for what we have. It was not handed to us by anyone. I was raised this way, and have seen both sides of the fence. 

Around here we are republicans because we want the IMMEDIATE stop of our fearless dumbo leader and his cronnies. We have seen it proven time and time again that not everyone can own their own home. We work hard, pay our own way, and pay or provide for health insurance. The DEMOCRATS want everyone to have access to health coverage......If others dont pay for it, that means I am paying for them.....how the HELL IS THAT FAIR????/


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> But remember the ditch diggers work for you. They are the one's making you a profit. It's not about the boss making too much money. Every worker should want their boss to make a lot of money. The problem is when the boss takes advantage of the the worker.


 
First up, is a little thing called supply and demand. 


There is a huge supply of people willing to dig ditches, and there are few people hiring them. This causes the price of this position to go down.

Now, if there was a ton of guys hiring ditch diggers, and only one ditch digger around, then the price of a ditch digger goes up.

While you think that employees make employers money...in a warped sense this is true.

Any ditch digger can make me money....not just you. I can find another ditch digger tomorrow, who will make me the same amount.

You can't find another employer tomorrow who will pay you the same amount because if you could, you'd already be there.


Supply and demand.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> First up, is a little thing called supply and demand.
> 
> 
> There is a huge supply of people willing to dig ditches, and there are few people hiring them. This causes the price of this position to go down.
> ...


Not all workers are created equal. You may make a case for a single non-skilled profession. In this case a ditch digger. A manual ditch digger at that... one who digs ditches with only a shovel. No heavy machinery. 

It's not too easy to find a skilled worker. 

This nation isn't a nation of management and unskilled ditch diggers.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> Not all workers are created equal. You may make a case for a single non-skilled profession. In this case a ditch digger. A manual ditch digger at that... one who digs ditches with only a shovel. No heavy machinery.
> 
> It's not too easy to find a skilled worker.
> 
> This nation isn't a nation of management and unskilled ditch diggers.


 
Yeah, but thats the idea in business. Create tasks, that even a ditch digger can follow. Look at the auto industry. The same guy, puts the same 5 bolts on a fender, over and over again. The same woman, installs the same seat...over and over again. This ain't skilled labor....but it took alot of skills to reduce this position of car building to this point today. It had too.

Look at our jobs.

What skilled is needed to screw 1900 boxes on a metal stud...over and over again. What skill is needed to pull mc from box to box...terminate black wires to black wires and white to white.

The skill is in making plans, and reading those plans, and making sure people follow the plans. Most electricians are told what to do, and very very few can read prints anyway.

The easier this field becomes, the less money will be in it for the average electrician.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> jrannis...
> 
> 
> 
> Around here we are republicans because we want the IMMEDIATE stop of our fearless dumbo leader and his cronnies. We have seen it proven time and time again that not everyone can own their own home. We work hard, pay our own way, and pay or provide for health insurance. The DEMOCRATS want everyone to have access to health coverage......If others dont pay for it, that means I am paying for them.....how the HELL IS THAT FAIR????/


HAHA you are a farmer and dont know what Farm Aid was all about.
Ever heard of Willie Nelson??
OK you grow corn and hay to make cow poop.
I must say that you seem very good at it.
FWIW:
Dumbo W and his Cronnies were in office when the real estate fraud was in full blossom. Did you forget that about W?
He was propped up in office by the GOP.

We are all now paying for the freeloaders sucking off of our system.
WE NEED to make everyone pays their fair share. We need to fix the way people skirt the system. It needs to come out of peoples earnings and/ or taxes. Take your pick.

I have people that steal work away from me because I have to figure the cost of health care into my costs. If I manage to get a job, I make money and pay taxes so that my competitor can send his uninsured help to my public hospital. 
how the HELL IS THAT FAIR????


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Yeah, but thats the idea in business. Create tasks, that even a ditch digger can follow. Look at the auto industry. The same guy, puts the same 5 bolts on a fender, over and over again. The same woman, installs the same seat...over and over again. This ain't skilled labor....but it took alot of skills to reduce this position of car building to this point today. It had too.
> 
> Look at our jobs.
> 
> ...


 I think that's all relevant. Perhaps in a less intricate electrical job you're correct. Meaning... if all you're ding is screwing in 1900's and nothing else. Then fine. But let's say as a contractor... wouldn't you want your electricians to know more than just screwing in 1900'? I work on a lot of large scale commerical jobs. I guess I see more than just 1900 boxes. I mean I've run MI cable, (which I thought was really interesting to do) done my share of fire alarm, data/communication and PVC coated ridgid. Knowing how to bend conduit is a skill is it not? I know that I was not able to do it the first time I used a table bender or hand bender. But I was taught how to do it. Wouldn't you want your electrician to be skilled and be able to trouble shoot and determine what needs to be done through reading plans? A smart well trained electrician is a productive electrician are they not? It just doesn't make sense to me to only want an "electrician" that only knows hot to pull MC cable and screw in 1900's. What happens when a job comes up and it involves doing things he's never done before? You know how to find an electrician that can do it.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> I think that's all relevant. Perhaps in a less intricate electrical job you're correct. Meaning... if all you're ding is screwing in 1900's and nothing else. Then fine. But let's say as a contractor... wouldn't you want your electricians to know more than just screwing in 1900'?


No I wouldn't. I would want one guy to know what is going on from top to bottom, 1 guy who can outhink a couple everyday problems, and the rest absolute idiots who know nothing. All they do is screw boxes where their told. And not think about how to redesign the wheel. The more thinking at the lowest levels, the worse the job becomes.




> Knowing how to bend conduit is a skill is it not? I know that I was not able to do it the first time I used a table bender or hand bender. But I was taught how to do it.


True, this is probably the most skilled thing we do. 
But how many electricians actually bend pipe? On average I say very few compared to how many pull mc and romex.



> Wouldn't you want your electrician to be skilled and be able to trouble shoot and determine what needs to be done through reading plans? A smart well trained electrician is a productive electrician are they not? It just doesn't make sense to me to only want an "electrician" that only knows hot to pull MC cable and screw in 1900's. What happens when a job comes up and it involves doing things he's never done before? You know how to find an electrician that can do it.


That is a good foremans job. And no, I need one chief, and a bunch of indians. Indians are easily replaceable, chiefs are not.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> No I wouldn't. I would want one guy to know what is going on from top to bottom, 1 guy who can outhink a couple everyday problems, and the rest absolute idiots who know nothing. All they do is screw boxes where their told. And not think about how to redesign the wheel. The more thinking at the lowest levels, the worse the job becomes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Wow. That's wonderful. So what you're telling me, if you're a contractor, all you're employees but one are pretty much useless? When you advertise yourself or you get called by a potential customer do you make it a point to let them know that your "electricians" are unskilled "idiots"? Except for the one superstar... of course. I wonder how that would play out...


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> Wow. That's wonderful. So what you're telling me, if you're a contractor, all you're employees but one are pretty much useless?


Maybe useless is the wrong term.

If you could make their position brainless and super easy to follow, I guess in a way....it would seem they are useless.

Sounds crude, but it is what it is.

Too many people allowed to think on their own, will get you nothing done.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> jrannis...
> 
> Im not sure what (read farm aid) means..... but WE (me, my wife, my parents) still run and operate our family farm. About 250 acres of hay, corn and cattle. WE RECIVE NONE, ZERO, ZILCH from government programs. We dont sign up for them. We make do on our own. If you farm or have a farm background, disregard the following....
> 
> ...


It's fair - think minimum wage to include a mandatory health care package.

People shouldn't have to diie for YOUR well-being. 

You might work very hard- no doubt your employees collectively work harder and see less of the fruits of that labor and time.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> First up, is a little thing called supply and demand.
> 
> 
> There is a huge supply of people willing to dig ditches, and there are few people hiring them. This causes the price of this position to go down.
> ...


OK Dorfman... right now, a 200a service should be practiucally free because the demand for upgrades is way less than the supply of starving contractors to do them, right?

Oh yea, Supply / Demand economics also include the caveat that a business must pay itself first, right?


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Jrannis.....listen jack....I know EXACTLY what farm aid was/is all about. My statement above said I dont know what you mean by (read farm aid).
My point is what does farm aid have to do with this????

And yeah....I have heard of Willie nelson......

Yeah....we are suffering from the free loaders on the system....question is.....which party tends to allow/push for/encourage this way???

Anyone whom dosent belive that our current president and speaker of the house are socialists is plain nuts.....plain and simple.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

jrannis said:


> FWIW:
> Dumbo W and his Cronnies were in office when the real estate fraud was in full blossom. Did you forget that about W?


His croonie as you say, is Chris Dodd. Chairman of the Senate Banking and Housing Committee.
It was his job to oversee banking regulations, bank failures, and housing markets including this fraud you are referring to.

Funny thing about the Presidency, he can't fire that idiot for screwing up, nor does he know what that croonie is doing.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> OK Dorfman... right now, a 200a service should be practiucally free because the demand for upgrades is way less than the supply of starving contractors to do them, right?
> 
> Oh yea, Supply / Demand economics also include the caveat that a business must pay itself first, right?


You're not worthy of a reply.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Jrannis.....listen jack....I know EXACTLY what farm aid was/is all about. My statement above said I dont know what you mean by (read farm aid).
> My point is what does farm aid have to do with this????
> 
> And yeah....I have heard of Willie nelson......
> ...


 C'mon Obama is a moderately liberal, centrist Democrat. It's amazing how we all attack each other. Remember how the liberals called you're boy Bush a nazi? Well you're doing the same thing.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Moderatly liberal???:blink: Centrist democrat???? :laughing:

That is too funny.....just way to funny....

If Odumbo is Moderatly liberal.....well.....the economy is doing moderatly well.:laughing:


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Hey....I got an idea.....lets start a pole.

If you are a contractor, do you want to be open shop or union?

Only the shop owners will answer/reply. Lets see where THAT goes:laughing:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> C'mon Obama is a moderately liberal, centrist Democrat. It's amazing how we all attack each other. Remember how the liberals called you're boy Bush a nazi? Well you're doing the same thing.


While I don't believe Pres Obama is a socialist, he certainly is not a moderate liberal or a centrist either. He is a liberal progressive who honestly believes that the government should have more say in the lives of the citizen because the government knows better. I believe he has the best of intentions. I also believe he is wrong. 
For the record, I don't believe the democrats or the republicans have the citizen's best interests in mind. They have their own best interests and those special interest groups who support them as their #1 priority. It has become all about power and the money they use to maintain that power at whatever cost.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's fair - think minimum wage to include a mandatory health care package.
> 
> People shouldn't have to diie for YOUR well-being.
> 
> You might work very hard- no doubt your employees collectively work harder and see less of the fruits of that labor and time.


Yeah, you're right. That's why not only are we no longer gonna charge for necessary electrical work....but we're gonna only hire A-JW's to do the work. 

That'll make it more fairer. 

Oh, wait...collectively, my employees already do make more from my company than I do. Now what do I do?


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

From obamas campaign...."were gonna spread the wealth around"
HOW IS THAT NOT SOCIALIST???? 

The democrats belive people are too dumb to think for themselves. Those whom are follow along blindly. I however, do ok for myself. I dont need others to hold my hand and make decisions for me. 

Big government is not good for america. Never has. Never will.


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

amptech said:


> For the record, I don't believe the democrats or the republicans have the citizen's best interests in mind. They have their own best interests and those special interest groups who support them as their #1 priority. It has become all about power and the money they use to maintain that power at whatever cost.


 That's one of the smartest things I've seen here yet.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> From obamas campaign...."were gonna spread the wealth around"
> HOW IS THAT NOT SOCIALIST????
> 
> The democrats belive people are too dumb to think for themselves. Those whom are follow along blindly. I however, do ok for myself. I dont need others to hold my hand and make decisions for me.
> ...


 Well here's another case of selective hearing... or reading for that matter. "Spread the wealth" A tool used by McCain and Palin to use against Obama during the presidental campaign. The "spread the wealth" comment came about during a discussion Obama and Joe the Plumber were having. Bascially Joe told Obama that he would raise his taxes on a business her was about to purchase. Punishing him. Obama stated he would raise the top rate taxes in order to decrease the taxes on those making $250,000 and less. Obama told him it was not to punish him but to give others a chance at success. Joe asked him if he was in favor of a flat tax. Obama gave the example that those making more should pay a little more so a flat tax won't work. It was there he made the "spread the wealth" comment. Progressive taxes do indeed spread the wealth a bit. But they do so much more modestly than government (socialism) owning the means of production. McCain, during his campaign stated progressive taxation is socialist. Even though he once made a comment and said "there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more" in taxes when you "reach a certain level of comfort." And even defended this comment during an interview with Meet the Press during the campaign. He said "You put into different, different categories of wealthier people paying, paying higher taxes into different brackets," That sounds like progressive taxation no? The same thing he claims is evil. SO in a sense the republicans are thinking for you just the way you say the democrats are thinking for other democrats.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> C'mon Obama is a moderately liberal, centrist Democrat. It's amazing how we all attack each other.


Are you out of your freaking mind.


----------



## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

brian john said:


> Are you out of your freaking mind.


 That's exactly what I ask myself when I see myself in the mirror ever morning. But that's another story.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> That's exactly what I ask myself when I see myself in the mirror ever morning. But that's another story.


That is were we differ, I am out of my mind or heading down that road.:thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Hey....I got an idea.....lets start a pole.
> 
> If you are a contractor, do you want to be open shop or union?
> 
> Only the shop owners will answer/reply. Lets see where THAT goes:laughing:


That's just silly. The choice to unionize or not is the employees, not the shop owners.

You don't really have a choice in the matter.:laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> You're not worthy of a reply.


Exactly... you're all for capitalism for the workers... and socialism for the company.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Exactly... you're all for capitalism for the workers... and socialism for the company.


 
Well....our companies are our companies. We make the decisions that will affect our buisnesses. I have been on both sides of the fence (union and non-union) and I will tell you the last thing that I need or want is someone dictating what my employees are getting paid. 

You think it is all about driving our workers down, but I can honestly say my employees are treated better than they would be if I were a union shop.

I intend to stay a smaller contractor. ( 4 to 10 employees) However if the day arises that they try to unionize, well, the doors will close and I will start over. EMPLOYEES will not decide how my buisness operates.

And people wonder why the unions are in the shape they are:laughing:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> From obamas campaign...."were gonna spread the wealth around"
> HOW IS THAT NOT SOCIALIST????
> 
> The democrats belive people are too dumb to think for themselves. Those whom are follow along blindly. I however, do ok for myself. I dont need others to hold my hand and make decisions for me.
> ...


You are truly a victim of your AM radio.
Who just created the biggest government in our history? BUSH!
Who thinks the government should, and has set the Federal Government to make all of our decisions? The GOP!
You are believing the tabloid trash talk as truth and letting it clog your mind and vision.
Find out the facts for your self instead of listening to the idiots at the corner bar, feed store or where ever you are getting filled with BS.

Put on some shoes, go into town, get a late', sit down and read a big city or international newspaper. 
You can't just sit around out there watching th sky for UFOs and milking bulls waiting for something to happen.
Seize the day!!


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

jrannis said:


> You are truly a victim of your AM radio.
> Who just created the biggest government in our history? BUSH!
> Who thinks the government should, and has set the Federal Government to make all of our decisions? The GOP!
> You are believing the tabloid trash talk as truth and letting it clog your mind and vision.
> ...


 

You ignorant pompus ass....

If you honestly belive what you are saying above, you are a moron.
My facts are the truth and I highly doubt you at all know my type as I go to a bar about once every two months. I dont listen to AM radio. The feed store is full of dumbass employees like you, to dumb to better themselves. I am not interested in drinking a latte', and am wearing my workboots now. I have way to many important things to do than watch for UFO's.
My views are how I see the world, of which is pretty screwed up thanks to wackjobs like you.
I will leave the bull milking to you and your like, as that seems a pretty good job for someone for your mentality..... but maybe there should be a law to protect the bull.....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> You ignorant pompus ass....
> 
> If you honestly belive what you are saying above, you are a moron.
> My facts are the truth and I highly doubt you at all know my type as I go to a bar about once every two months. I dont listen to AM radio. The feed store is full of dumbass employees like you, to dumb to better themselves. I am not interested in drinking a latte', and am wearing my workboots now. I have way to many important things to do than watch for UFO's.
> ...


Pretty much says it all......

Ignorance is bliss!


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> However if the day arises that they try to unionize, well, the doors will close and I will start over. EMPLOYEES will not decide how my buisness operates.
> 
> And people wonder why the unions are in the shape they are:laughing:



What you said, "they try to unionize"... you will close the doors. That's against the law.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> What you said, "they try to unionize"... you will close the doors. That's against the law.


Certain aspects of not allowing them to unionize are against the law, I do not believe going out of business is one of them.


I am a union contractor and am union by choice. I do understand the mentality of not wanting to be union and saying to heck with it I'll quit first. It is his business and HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE CHOICES.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> What you said, "they try to unionize"... you will close the doors. That's against the law.


 
No it's not.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> No it's not.



Going out of business is one thing. But I'm sure that's not what he would intend. I'm not sure how electrical licensing works where he is from but if he were to close his business would he not have to reapply for a new license? Which in some areas can take more time than could be worth in certain situations.

Bottom line I would think that lawsuits would follow. Especially if his business is profitable. And you have no debt or creditors hunting you down. I don't even think you'd be eligible for bankruptcy.

So his agenda seems flawed.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

His agenda is flawed?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

oldman said:


> His agenda is flawed?



What? You just wake up?

:whistling2:


Read the thread... 

here's an outline:



- Machinist, unemployed union
- Opinions are made
- 480sparky goes fishing, doesn't catch anything.
- Lawnguy says some things... people disagree
- blah blah
- Jacksonburg hates democrats.
- Obama is a socialist
- McCain is also a socialist
- Jacksonburg will close down if his workers try to unionize.
- An explanation is somwhat made
- Doesn't seem as easy as one would think.
- You arrive fashionably late.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Sorry, I've been busy working hard to support others.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Chris21 said:


> What? You just wake up?
> 
> :whistling2:
> 
> ...


 :laughing::clap::lol::whistling2:

That is freaking hilarious!!! The truth in a funny manner HAHAHA


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## minibdr (Nov 11, 2009)

#*107* Grumpyoldman 











Sorry, I've been busy working hard to support others. 
Undermining our fellow American workers with my screw you mentality.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

No, no, no.....didn't you see our new business model? 

Jeesh, I can't do nothin' right.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Well....our companies are our companies. We make the decisions that will affect our buisnesses. I have been on both sides of the fence (union and non-union) and I will tell you the last thing that I need or want is someone dictating what my employees are getting paid.


Why not? Somebody else is dictating what an ad costs, what a gallon of fuel costs, what you'll pay for breakers, somebody else is dictating what it costs to run a truck, what office space is per sq. ft, and what your tax rate will be. A bunch of somebodies dictate how you will install stuff (the codes we all seem to embrace so) and what a ream of office paper goes for. And pretty much everybody else is paying pretty much the same thing. So why can't you operate in an enviroment where a unit of skilled labor has a set price? 



> You think it is all about driving our workers down, but I can honestly say my employees are treated better than they would be if I were a union shop.


Yea I know, there seems to be a lot of that going on around here. In fact, so far (as long as I've been keeping track) it seems EVERY nonunion and Merit shop pays better than union scale, and every employee of same gets better treatment. And better benefits. And a comprable pension. Funny though, when a local opens it's apprenticeship there are lines around the block... I wonder why that is? We get so many calls on a daily basis that when a nonunion electrician calls about joining our local they're sent to a website to explain the hows and whys. The local would have to keep a full time receptionist on staff just to handle the flood of walk-ins who have had enough of the Merit B.S.

Further, It may very well be a shop pays a journeyman better than union scale. And it's apprentices, and whatever designation you give to those in-between... but the devil is in the details in that you have only ONE "electrician" on staff, and everyone else is an underpaid "in-between" and will never reach the pay of electrician even after many many years. Once this factor is realized by employees, they begin to seek out a better way. 



> I intend to stay a smaller contractor. ( 4 to 10 employees) However if the day arises that they try to unionize, well, the doors will close and I will start over. EMPLOYEES will not decide how my buisness operates.
> 
> And people wonder why the unions are in the shape they are:laughing:


If the day arises you will negotiate or you will close. True some reopen, but that's been done before and we watch for it. Reopening under another name doesn't work, and most REAL contractors are aware of this. And being that you say you've been on "both sides of the fence" I'm quite suprised you didn't... :whistling2:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Certain aspects of not allowing them to unionize are against the law, I do not believe going out of business is one of them.
> 
> 
> I am a union contractor and am union by choice. I do understand the mentality of not wanting to be union and saying to heck with it I'll quit first. It is his business and HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE CHOICES.


It's not his choice. That's the point.


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## JacksonburgFarmer (Jul 5, 2008)

Here is the problem with the union.

IBEW signatory contractors pay equal money for all inside A ticket JW's. 
Not all of these JW's are created equal.
The hall says they are.....they are not. I have worked with them.
Although there are some very good ones, there are some horendous ones. The horendous are paid as much as the good ones. 

The supply houses set their prices for materials. Not all supply houses are created equal. You get what you pay for. If I dont like the product/brand/service/knowlege for the price at a particular supply house, I go elsewhere. 

How do you do that with the hall??? you dont. There my friend is the problem. 

Not all electricians are equal, and I despise the idea of paying equal wages to unequal workers. When I worked union, I despised it then as I worked 8 for 8 along side jackasses whom where slackers and theifs. I know how it works to shut down, and start another buisness and have seen it happen. If union was the best way, there wouldnt be any nonunion electricians or contractors. 

Your statements of "forcing" a contractor to become union is the exact mentality that has put the unions where they are today. 

It is my choice, and I'll be damned if anyone will tell me how to run my buisness.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Here is the problem with the union.
> 
> IBEW signatory contractors pay equal money for all inside A ticket JW's.
> Not all of these JW's are created equal.
> ...


No they're not. The horendous ones get laid off and go back to the bench. 

Oh what's that Jacksonburg? You don't have "cause?" Ahhhh I see... so by "horendous" you mean they're just not 250% productive like the ones you like, right? But you can't fire them because they're doing the job, just not quaking in their boots like you like your men, right?

...and you wonder why people join unions.



> The supply houses set their prices for materials. Not all supply houses are created equal. You get what you pay for. If I dont like the product/brand/service/knowlege for the price at a particular supply house, I go elsewhere.
> 
> How do you do that with the hall??? you dont.


You do - through layoffs.



> There my friend is the problem.
> 
> Not all electricians are equal, and I despise the idea of paying equal wages to unequal workers. When I worked union, I despised it then as I worked 8 for 8 along side jackasses whom where slackers and theifs. I know how it works to shut down, and start another buisness and have seen it happen. If union was the best way, there wouldnt be any nonunion electricians or contractors.


If nonunion was the best way, the IBEW wouldn't exist.
I have no problem that Joe is better than Mark, or that Jim needs the most babysitting on my crew - they're all worth their money if not as individuals, than as a group. You want the supreme ability to cherrypick for the purpose of increasing YOUR income, not their's or to their benifit. Because were Joe, Jim or Mark in your employ you wouldn't pay them HALF what they're making as IBEW electricians and they'd ALL be getting screwed.

And that's what you really want.



> Your statements of "forcing" a contractor to become union is the exact mentality that has put the unions where they are today.


Your statements that you won't be forced to go union, or that you'd close your doors is exactly the reason why we do need unions, and why unions will always be a fact of life.



> It is my choice, and I'll be damned if anyone will tell me how to run my buisness.


No it's not, and the fact that you refuse to believe what you know is true speaks volumes to your childish behavior and abilities as a businessman. Like many contractors, you're just an old aged teenage boy. A spoiled brat. 

And unions don't tell you how to run your business. I've been with a few shops and no 2 were alike.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> It is my choice, and I'll be damned if anyone will tell me how to run my buisness.



I'm amazed by how many contractors really believe this to be true.
Maybe it's your opinion that it should be this way,but the fact remains that it is not.You guy's love to through the word "entitled" around but at the same time you always say the same crap "It's *MY* business"It's *My *money""It's *MY *choice""There* MY *employees""It's *MY* risk""It's *MY *rules"
*ME.........ME............ME...........ME................ME...........ME........!!!!!!!!!*

Yup,were the ones who have entitlement issues:whistling2:.........


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm amazed by how many contractors really believe this to be true.
> Maybe it's your opinion that it should be this way,but the fact remains that it is not.You guy's love to through the word "entitled" around but at the same time you always say the same crap "It's *MY* business"It's *My *money""It's *MY *choice""There* MY *employees""It's *MY* risk""It's *MY *rules"
> *ME.........ME............ME...........ME................ME...........ME........!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Yup,were the ones who have entitlement issues:whistling2:.........


Of course it is a choice to the contractor. If he doesn't want to become signatory, he can dissolve his company. I believe, in this argument anyway, that it is the union side that is "entitled". Why does the worker's choice totally eliminate a choice for the contractor? Isn't the worker free to choose to go to a shop that is already organized? After all, it is *His *business and *His *risk. Everyone seems to forget that an employer assumes responsibility for the actions of its employees. If an employee makes a mistake and caused property damage, bodily injury or death the employer is held responsible first. If an employer cheats on their taxes or breaks the law in some other way the employee is held harmless. There are risks to an employer other than simple profit and loss job to job.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

amptech said:


> Everyone seems to forget that an employer assumes responsibility for the actions of its employees.


I don't think they forget, they are just selfish p r i c ks that do not care at all about the owners risks.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

The management/labor argument is as old as dirt and exists in other situations as well. I worked at a manufacturing company where the sales people in the office looked down on the production people in the plant. The production people viewed the sales staff as a bunch of prima donas who made a living off of their sweat and labor. Each group thought the other could be replaced by slightly trained monkeys and answering machines. But the truth is they need each other to make money. You can't sell a product if nobody is producing it and you can produce the highest quality, best value product but it is worth nothing if nobody is out selling it. It is the chicken or the egg argument x infinity and hard heads, selfishness, jealousy and narrow minds prevent the obvious from being realized. As soon as either side takes the " us against them" attitude both sides are on their way to losing, eventually.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

the thought process that goes into LGLS or Slickvic is one that scares me....to even fathom that a guy who starts his own company shouldn't have control over it...that's messed up...

they will never change their minds, and i post this for guys who aren't even posting in this thread...but think about what's being said here for a moment...

a guy takes a risk and starts a company....he does well...builds up his company...hires employees...and suddenly, he is told that he doesn't have control over his company anymore...and the 'choice is not his'...it's either have the union control his labor, or shut down the company he built...
_
edit to add - we aren't talking about labor law violations or legal violations..they fall under a different category...but when a person starts their own business, they do so with the knowledge that they have to follow the laws already in place_

and think about this in a larger context of what's happening in this country...

scary folks, scary...

LGLS/Slickvic/Miller/Et al..y'all really should become members...these people are right up your alley. They want to destroy incentive as well...


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Certain aspects of not allowing them to unionize are against the law, I do not believe going out of business is one of them.
> 
> 
> I am a union contractor and am union by choice. I do understand the mentality of not wanting to be union and saying to heck with it I'll quit first. It is his business and HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE CHOICES.





Dnkldorf said:


> No it's not.





oldman said:


> the thought process that goes into LGLS or Slickvic is one that scares me....to even fathom that a guy who starts his own company shouldn't have control over it...that's messed up...
> 
> they will never change their minds, and i post this for guys who aren't even posting in this thread...but think about what's being said here for a moment...
> 
> ...



It's not about losing or taking control of someone's business.It's about the amount of control that someone has by law and the amount of control employees have to unionize and negotiate conditions and wages in that company.

And for all the guy's who thinks it's legal to simply close your doors and open under another name,think again.It's not as easy as you think and if your caught your subject to ULP charges,fines,and paying back wages.Now not to say that it doesn't happen,because it does and a lot.But let's not act like this is a simple legal maneuver to avoid unionization.

Also to suggest that labor rights and specifically the right to organize is socialist,marxist,communist or any other type of "ist" is completely self serving to your point of view.And what is your point of view?,You want total say over the wages and conditions of employment.The power to control people as you see fit and with the snap of a finger the power to remove someone from there source of lively hood.Also your ideals suggest that unionism and labor rights are the downfall of the country.Yet the point of view and ideals that you believe to be of "free market" Are dictating and controlling the terms of employment and freedoms of labor and there RIGHTS to a voice.This seems more threatening to a democratic society then any labor union could ever be.


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Yup,were the ones who have entitlement issues:whistling2:.........


Owning up to it is the first step. Peace be with you, brother.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I'm amazed by how many contractors really believe this to be true.
> Maybe it's your opinion that it should be this way,but the fact remains that it is not.You guy's love to through the word "entitled" around but at the same time you always say the same crap "It's *MY* business"It's *My *money""It's *MY *choice""There* MY *employees""It's *MY* risk""It's *MY *rules"
> *ME.........ME............ME...........ME................ME...........ME........!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Yup,were the ones who have entitlement issues:whistling2:.........


Are you that stupid or ingrained with idiotic ideas. There is a world of differences between those in line for entitlements and those that work for a living.

It is MINE, I built it, I earned it, I paid taxes on it and if you want it try and take it if I do not want you to have it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

What does all of this have to do with unemployed factory workers gaining a collective voice?:whistling2:

Where is Sleepy Petey when you need him??


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Are you that stupid or ingrained with idiotic ideas. There is a world of differences between those in line for entitlements and those that work for a living.
> 
> It is MINE, I built it, I earned it, I paid taxes on it and if you want it try and take it if I do not want you to have it.


Yes there is a difference and I work for a living everyday,just like anyone else.But since I'm a union member I'm accused of having a sense of entitlement.Yes the business is yours and yes you do pay taxes on it and no I do not want it.What I want for me and every one who works for a living is to have there right to organize,right to a voice and a right to improve there working conditions.And no,I don't except the mind set that labor must bow to the demands of employers and anyone else who profits off the sweat of the work force.

I'm tired of the starving contractor bit.I'm tired of the control freeks,sick of the power trippers,sick of people accusing organized labor of being anti-American when these same people want nothing more then absolute power absolute decision making with nothing but there interest in mind.Pointing the finger and preaching there ideals as truths and in the same sentence calling me brainwashed.

Your frustration at being able to complete an intelligent argument is really starting show.Calling me an idiot is really proving your point.

Let me ask you this,Why do you continue to be a signatory contractor?
Anyone can read any of your posts in the union forum and know were you stand.So why continue to pay union members when you admittingly have nothing to gain from this relationship?

How about it,MR.Johnson. can you form a reasonable answer before you explode into name calling or does this "idiot" just have you that frustrated.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Yes there is a difference and I work for a living everyday,just like anyone else.But since I'm a union member I'm accused of having a sense of entitlement.Yes the business is yours and yes you do pay taxes on it and no I do not want it.


I do not accuse you of that you have a right to bargain



> What I want for me and every one who works for a living is to have there right to organize,right to a voice and a right to improve there working conditions.And no,I don't except the mind set that labor must bow to the demands of employers and anyone else who profits off the sweat of the work force.


But an owner should have the right to quit the business.



> I'm tired of the starving contractor bit.


I am not starving I am skiing in Der Valley Utah, damn good food here.



> Pointing the finger and preaching there ideals as truths and in the same sentence calling me brainwashed.


 you have to admit you drink more of the union kool-aid than most of you fellow members



> Your frustration at being able to complete an intelligent argument is really starting show.Calling me an idiot is really proving your point.


I only called you an idiot not out of frustration but base on the IDIOTIC statement you made. If you believe half of what you spout you are an idiot or at best a border line idiot.



Let me ask you this,Why do you continue to be a signatory contractor?
Anyone can read any of your posts in the union forum and know were you stand.So why continue to pay union members when you admittingly have nothing to gain from this relationship?

How about it,MR.Johnson. can you form a reasonable answer before you explode into name calling or does this "idiot" just have you that frustrated.[/QUOTE]


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> I do not accuse you of that you have a right to bargain
> 
> 
> But an owner should have the right to quit the business.
> ...


[/quote]


And yet you avoided the last question.Probably the one everyone would like to know the answer to.

If your skiing what the hell are you doing wasting your time on Electrician Talk?

When I'm vacation you won't find me anywhere near a computer.But I'm the idiot...:whistling2:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

amptech said:


> Of course it is a choice to the contractor. If he doesn't want to become signatory, he can dissolve his company. I believe, in this argument anyway, that it is the union side that is "entitled". Why does the worker's choice totally eliminate a choice for the contractor? Isn't the worker free to choose to go to a shop that is already organized? After all, it is *His *business and *His *risk. Everyone seems to forget that an employer assumes responsibility for the actions of its employees. If an employee makes a mistake and caused property damage, bodily injury or death the employer is held responsible first. If an employer cheats on their taxes or breaks the law in some other way the employee is held harmless. There are risks to an employer other than simple profit and loss job to job.



What your pointing out has nothing to do with the fact that employees have the right to choose to bargain collectively rather than on a one on one basis. A company owners assumed liabilities that are part of the natural course of doing business do not trump, negate, or usurp employee rights.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> What you said, "they try to unionize"... you will close the doors. That's against the law.



No, what is against the law is trying to influence the employees decisions by threatening job loss.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

oldman said:


> the thought process that goes into LGLS or Slickvic is one that scares me....to even fathom that a guy who starts his own company shouldn't have control over it...that's messed up...


It is messed up.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

See you guys don't understand the Union logic, that's all.

Here is a breakdown:

1. I am afraid to start my own business, so I will own yours.
2. If your business makes money, it's because of the employees only.
3. If your business loses money, it's all your fault.
4. I have every right to tell you, what you can do with your business.
5. I have every right to tell you how much money you are allowed to make.
6. A 6 month tech school entitles me to make more money than someone with 6 yrs of college.


add your own.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> See you guys don't understand the Union logic, that's all.
> 
> Here is a breakdown:
> 
> ...




Again,still under the false pretense that anybody "wants" your rinky dink operation.If the business makes money,great but it's a combination of being a good business man and having good people working for you.You can't do it with out your work force.Generally,if you lose money,go belly up or fall flat on your face it will be your fault after all it's your business and you have the decision making ability.College doesn't equate success.Never did.I make more then almost all of my friends who went to college.I know bar tenders who make more then me.So your point is pointless.


Here's the real brake down,

1)It's my business and I get to make all the rules despite what the laws say.
2)Since I'm the boss and you work for me,your a loser and I get to charge $80 and pay you $12.
3)If you don't like it quit.
4)Wait...what? you mean,your actually aloud to join a union with out MY approval....but.....I'm.....I.........


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

6 months of Tech school?:laughing:
I wouldn't pay them more than 1st year wages.

Contractors need electricians and electricians need contractors.

I really do not understand how someone working in the field is going to tell someone how to run their business.
Just provide proper tools material and supervision and the guys get the job done.
What changed?
If you opened a business to boss people around, bully them and starve them, then the IBEW isn't for you. The guys do not respond to those tactics.

If you enjoy being a screaming jerk owner, it is very possible to go through enough people to find people that will take that abuse. Some even get off on it.:whistling2:

Something for everyone in this world.........


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

OH yeah,

Quit hijacking my thread!!


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Yes there is a difference and I work for a living everyday,just like anyone else.But since I'm a union member I'm accused of having a sense of entitlement.


no, you're thought process (as posted here) is what causes you to be accused of having a sense of entitlement...not the fact that you are in the IBEW



slickvic277 said:


> Yes the business is yours and yes you do pay taxes on it and no I do not want it.What I want for me and every one who works for a living is to have there right to organize,right to a voice and a right to improve there working conditions.


i agree, you should have those rights...but they shouldn't trump my right to operate a viable business entity, within the laws of my jurisdiction, even if you don't think i'm giving you enough from it...



slickvic277 said:


> And no,I don't except the mind set that labor must bow to the demands of employers and anyone else who profits off the sweat of the work force.


i don't either...but I do except the mind set that a company is not started with the sole purpose of pampering it's labor...there is no more company stores (at least I don't believe so) or company housing (though I think Local 3 still has some)...you no longer go into debt to the company...and since we still have some freedoms in this country, all labor has the freedom to move on to a better gig...

you believe that you have the right to impose your will on the contractors, while they don't have the right to impose their will on you...



slickvic277 said:


> I'm tired of the starving contractor bit.I'm tired of the control freeks,sick of the power trippers,sick of people accusing organized labor of being anti-American when these same people want nothing more then absolute power absolute decision making with nothing but there interest in mind.Pointing the finger and preaching there ideals as truths and in the same sentence calling me brainwashed.


seriously? you're really gonna make that argument? slick, go out on your own, start your own company, and run it the way you preach...until then, shut up...





jrannis said:


> 6 months of Tech school?:laughing:
> I wouldn't pay them more than 1st year wages.
> 
> Contractors need electricians and electricians need contractors.


not true...some contractors need electricians...all electricians need contractors...we are, as LGLS say, the Madams....





jrannis said:


> I really do not understand how someone working in the field is going to tell someone how to run their business.


you do live in utopia...up here, try telling some locals how many men you need on a job...guarantee, they'll make you take more men, or you'll get some slugs...




jrannis said:


> Just provide proper tools material and supervision and the guys get the job done.
> What changed?
> If you opened a business to boss people around, bully them and starve them, then the IBEW isn't for you. The guys do not respond to those tactics.


that statement is comparable to asking when someone stopped beating their wife...it presupposes that anyone who runs a merit shop follows the same method of running a company...




jrannis said:


> If you enjoy being a screaming jerk owner, it is very possible to go through enough people to find people that will take that abuse. Some even get off on it.:whistling2:
> 
> Something for everyone in this world.........


and the labor is free to move on.....and there should be something for everyone...if being a signatory contractor works for you, great...if being a merit shop works for you, great...but the attitude of some, indicate that live and let live is not part of their thought process...


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

jrannis said:


> OH yeah,
> 
> Quit hijacking my thread!!


sorry...:whistling2::laughing:


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

slickvic277 said:


> If the business makes money,great but it's a combination of being a good business man and having good people working for you.You can't do it with out your work force.


 
I highlighted the hypocricy in your statement.

Do I have the right to pick and choose this workforce, or should someone else, with no vested interest in my business, have the right to tell me who I must employ, and how much I should pay them?


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

To go back on topic:


Why don't they form their own business, with all owning a certain piece of the pie, and enter the marketplace.

They could be their own business union, if the term is appropriate.

They would set working conditions...because they have the most experience in this enviroment....to a given standard.....without management geting in the way.

They could set their own pay scales, working hours, benefits....however they want...so everyone gets a living wage.

They could do alot of things....if they really wanted to.

They could be a role model for others to follow.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Here's the real brake down,


The break down from a distorted mind.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Dnkldorf: See you guys don't understand the Union logic, that's all.

Here is a breakdown:

1. I am afraid to start my own business, so I will own yours.

*Of course, anyone not venturing out on their own must be:*
*Afraid, a wimp, a pu$$y, or any one of a number of put-downs designed to drive your sense of self-worth down. *

2. If your business makes money, it's because of the employees only.
3. If your business loses money, it's all your fault.

*Business makes and loses money all the time. Pinning blame where it belongs is typically in the eye of the beholder. Of course, whenever a contractor loses money it is always the employees fault, because no business owner could ever screw up and miss the mark. I know one contractor who did very well for himself after 40 years of inheriting the family business, despite the fact that he lost money on every single job for 40 years. *

4. I have every right to tell you, what you can do with your business.

*Nah... But we do have every right to tell you here's the local CBA and you and we all gonna abide by it. This is the MINIMUM standard we will work under, this is the MINIMUM wage, this is the LEAST we will accept, and you're gonna have to run your business in a manner that accomodates these provisions.*

5. I have every right to tell you how much money you are allowed to make.

*No, the free market will take care of that, knock yourself out.*

6. A 6 month tech school entitles me to make more money than someone with 6 yrs of college.

*Probably if that 6-year college grad is working in Taco Bell. *

add your own.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm not going to waste time getting into it too deeply...

There are precious few companies I know of that pay as well as us or offer benefits as good as the union, but those few I know of have little fear of being turned. The guys who work there are treated well, their happy and the companies are making big money. The idea of organizing in a company like that is a complete non-starter because the owners are smart and understand how vital it is to keep the workers happy and productive. They don't just want loyal workers either, they're loyal to their workers too.

Its a free market and owners are free to run their companies any way they see fit. They're free to run them into the ground, treat workers like crap, not pay taxes or insurance. Its the owner's company and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. The only thing he can't escape are the consequences of bad decisions be it workers turning against him, the IRS, the police, lawsuits, etc. They are also free to run them well where there are no consequences to worry about.

The way I see it, good businessmen don't have to worry about their workers turning on them and organizing the company, there are a number of companies that have been in operation for decades in strong union markets with little fear of being organized that prove this point nicely. As for the others, well not everyone is a good businessman.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

Mike_586 said:


> I'm not going to waste time getting into it too deeply...
> 
> There are precious few companies I know of that pay as well as us or offer benefits as good as the union, but those few I know of have little fear of being turned. The guys who work there are treated well, their happy and the companies are making big money. The idea of organizing in a company like that is a complete non-starter because the owners are smart and understand how vital it is to keep the workers happy and productive. They don't just want loyal workers either, they're loyal to their workers too.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Unfortunately, there are some on this forum who are so brainwashed that they refuse to believe that there are good, honest, fair open shops in existence.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

amptech said:


> Exactly! Unfortunately, there are some on this forum who are so brainwashed that they refuse to believe that there are good, honest, fair open shops in existence.


Sorry,
Just seems like the biggest oxymoron out there. :laughing:

You really know in your brainwashed mind that the odd of the average non-union electrician working in the situation you described are almost slim to none.
Every non-union person posting here, except Bob the worm, are contractors.:thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

OH yeah,

Quit hijacking my thread...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> OH yeah,
> 
> Quit hijacking my thread...


I am a union contractor and as I have mentioned I do work for open shops, several are excellent and treat their men quite well, top pay and benefits, most of these men have been with the company 10-30 years. I also work for some so so open shops, but their men stay, not forced to stay and many talk quite nice about the company. Other open shops are hardly contractors in my opinion and men come and go, but the contractor continues in business.

I have also worked for union shops and see the same thing except all the men make basically the same, though many of the excellent shops offer above scale pay and benefits.

It is the workers choice (in my area employment is usually quite high). Good guys do good, mediocre guys not quite as well and bottom of the barrel workers skip around.


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