# Mounting to block wall



## 347volts (Jul 5, 2014)

Wondering if you guys have any methods of mounting panels to block wall. I usually just use toggle bolts but doing some bigger panels/ switch gear that are far to heavy for toggle bolts. Been using drop in anchors but a bit of a pain in the ass to find the solid part of the block to get the anchor to really grab. One of the large panels in on a pad so just have to secure it to the wall so im sure toggle bolts will be alright but the other 2 need to be about a foot off the ground.

Thanks!


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

347volts said:


> Wondering if you guys have any methods of mounting panels to block wall. I usually just use toggle bolts but doing some bigger panels/ switch gear that are far to heavy for toggle bolts. Been using drop in anchors but a bit of a pain in the ass to find the solid part of the block to get the anchor to really grab. One of the large panels in on a pad so just have to secure it to the wall so im sure toggle bolts will be alright but the other 2 need to be about a foot off the ground.
> 
> Thanks!



Use 1 5/8" uni-strut with 3/8" Toggles to hold the strut then 3/8" bolts and spring nuts..without the springs...like these.











http://www.gordonelectricsupply.com...hiJ8LovUedgCCM_3JXQ2ERSTC-FFjZutjQaAuPA8P8HAQ



.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Kindorf ™ framework to the floor. Attached to wall with anchors of some sort.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I like using strut on the wall. When its a block wall, I run the strut right to the floor and toggle bolt the top of the strut to the wall. That way the strut carries the weight of the panel to the floor and the toggle bolts are really only stopping the panel from tipping forward. They only carry the shear stress.


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## 347volts (Jul 5, 2014)

Sounds much easier with strut the way you guys explained it. I think these panels have to be around 500 ish pounds, think the 3/8 bolts with spring nuts will take the weight? I'm sure I would just always scared for some reason they'll let go and I'll have a panel come crashing onto the floor


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

347volts said:


> Sounds much easier with strut the way you guys explained it. I think these panels have to be around 500 ish pounds, think the 3/8 bolts with spring nuts will take the weight? I'm sure I would just always scared for some reason they'll let go and I'll have a panel come crashing onto the floor
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Go with a 1/2" bolt then. :laughing: 

Seriously though......a 3/8 eyebolt has a 90 degree lifting capacity of over 200 lbs. I'm sure a bolt will be similar.......and you will have at least 4 of those holding the panel to the strut.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

To attach to cinder block walls, we use Hilti HFX injectable mortar ( chemical anchors)
Expensive, but it works very very well.
Either mount the panels directly to the wall, or mount unistrut and then attach the panels to the strut.


Base materials: Concrete (uncracked), Masonry (hollow), Masonry (solid)


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

And of course, if other side of wall suitable, bolts all the way through with strut on opposite side to distribute force.


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## 347volts (Jul 5, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> Go with a 1/2" bolt then. :laughing:
> 
> Seriously though......a 3/8 eyebolt has a 90 degree lifting capacity of over 200 lbs. I'm sure a bolt will be similar.......and you will have at least 4 of those holding the panel to the strut.



True enough. Ask drilled about 2 more holes per side so a total of 8 lol


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Doubledouble anchors all day long. 500#s I would hit the solid part of the block or mount strut via the doubledouble.


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

I just use short 3/8" sleeve anchors. Never had a problem. I would trust the holding strength of sleeve anchor over a toggle wing. Besides, with a sleeve anchor, the anchor doesn't have any "slop" up, down or sideways like a toggle. Another plus is, you can drill and insert the anchor through the tub. My s.o.p. is to drill one mounting hole, hang the panel from that anchor, level the panel and mark the opposite corner. Swing it out of the way to drill hole 2. Install anchor 2 through panel and secure both anchors. Drill remaining 2 holes and insert and secure anchors.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

WTF??
Every exterior wall here is CBS. One word:
Sleeve Anchors!!


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## amigi968 (May 24, 2008)

I'm assuming commericial/industrial. Who mounts panels straight on walls? Apprentice Electric, Inc.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

amigi968 said:


> Who mounts panels straight on walls? Apprentice Electric, Inc.


 anyone mounting them to block. I would love to see someone recess a panel in block, the masons would probably stuff you into the hollow spots


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## Mich drew (Mar 3, 2013)

I still use lead anchors installed with a hollow wall set.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

tates1882 said:


> anyone mounting them to block. I would love to see someone recess a panel in block, the masons would probably stuff you into the hollow spots


what he meant was, who mounts them straight to the block and not to strut.


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

We never mount a panel directly to a block wall. Or any wall. We use 3/4 plywood behind the panel in residential and strut just about everywhere else.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Rollie73 said:


> I like using strut on the wall. When its a block wall, I run the strut right to the floor and toggle bolt the top of the strut to the wall. That way the strut carries the weight of the panel to the floor and the toggle bolts are really only stopping the panel from tipping forward. They only carry the shear stress.


This is a good method I've used in the past, mostly on steel buildings where girts don't allow easy fastening.

This is an anchor I found when trying to fasten strut to brick for some rigid conduits. I set the anchor deep enough to get the toggle behind the brick, they worked well. I imagine they'd work great in hollow block also.

https://www.fastenal.com/web/products/details/0128657


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

wildleg said:


> what he meant was, who mounts them straight to the block and not to strut.


oh


knomore said:


> We never mount a panel directly to a block wall. Or any wall. We use 3/4 plywood behind the panel in residential and strut just about everywhere else.


Ive mounted right to block/brick numerous times, 1/4" spacer. why spend more on strut, spring nuts when a five cent spacer will do the same thing, save the strut for the conduit.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

tates1882 said:


> oh
> 
> 
> Ive mounted right to block/brick numerous times, 1/4" spacer. why spend more on strut, spring nuts when a five cent spacer will do the same thing, save the strut for the conduit.


All nema 3r manufactured in the last 15 years already have 1/4" raised bolt holes.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

347volts said:


> Wondering if you guys have any methods of mounting panels to block wall. I usually just use toggle bolts but doing some bigger panels/ switch gear that are far to heavy for toggle bolts. Been using drop in anchors but a bit of a pain in the ass to find the solid part of the block to get the anchor to really grab. One of the large panels in on a pad so just have to secure it to the wall so im sure toggle bolts will be alright but the other 2 need to be about a foot off the ground.
> 
> Thanks!


Can you build a stand/stantion from the floor up under it?


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

I worked on a 3w 480 volt 1200 a. panel in a mill once. Parallel 750s. Used the bucket truck to pull, hammers to get cables in LBs.


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## Jhellwig (Jun 18, 2014)

Mich drew said:


> I still use lead anchors installed with a hollow wall set.


This. Best anchor for block wall. Calking corkers leadsets whatever you want to call them.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sleeve anchors* are the best.

They need to be the right length to grab the block properly. Something like 2 1/4"???

I sometimes install one to hold the weight, then level and drill thru the panel hole for the 2nd, 3rd and fourth. Try to avoid the grout joints and the very edges of the block.



> I'm assuming commericial/industrial. Who mounts panels straight on walls? Apprentice Electric, Inc.


*Everyone* in my area does.

What is the purpose of the strut behind the panel???


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

spread the load and make it easier to install the panel, plus if you have side by side panels or other equip to mount makes it all easier. I suppose if its just one resi panel it don't make a hill of beans, tho.


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## 347volts (Jul 5, 2014)

220/221 said:


> *Sleeve anchors* are the best.
> 
> They need to be the right length to grab the block properly. Something like 2 1/4"???
> 
> ...


If you get the right length of anchor, does it grab in the hollow of the block well? I've never had luck but maybe because I had the wrong size. I drill right through the panel like you said but the panel were mounting now takes about 4 guys to lift it and hold up so not the easiest :laughing:

Just found it a pain in the ass to try and find the solid part of the block for a drop in anchor


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

Mich drew said:


> I still use lead anchors installed with a hollow wall set.


Same here. Little cost in set tool, but saves in the long run. We call them AJ's.bolt size never changes if you drill deep enough.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Mich drew said:


> I still use lead anchors installed with a hollow wall set.


That is definitely my preferred anchor for block walls. The hollow wall set tool is around 45.00. Even if you are in the solid, you over drill them so you don't have to wory about the bolt bottoming out.

I am surprised to hear so many people still using them. I don't think some areas will accept them. If you have a fire, the lead melts, and you loose the anchor. I didn't think you can use them in New York, from what I was told.

I know most job spec's wont allow them. Sometimes the seismic specs will say they want the panels supported from the floor, wall and ceiling. So you have to run the strut floor to ceiling with angle brackets on both ends. I think that looks like crap, but what are you going to do?

My least favorite anchor is the double expansion anchor.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

readydave8 said:


> And of course, if other side of wall suitable, bolts all the way through with strut on opposite side to distribute force.


I'm installing a server cabinet tomarrow on a cinder block wall. I've decided to use 10 inch 1/2" carriage bolts.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

This fire melting the lead anchor thing. Any case histories? I would only say most panels of that size are put in with conduit.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

347volts said:


> If you get the right length of anchor, does it grab in the hollow of the block well?


It doesn't grab the hollow because...it's air .

The back of the sleeve anchor is in the hollow maybe 1/2". As soon as the wedge part starts pulling into the sleeve, it starts expanding the anchor. If the anchor is too long, it will expand inside the hollow and just spin around. Also, if the hole is too big or it lands in a soft mortar joint, it won't want to grab.

Sleeve anchors work in solid or hollow. Drop ins or wedge anchors only work in solid.

And, your gear doesn't take 4 guys to hang :laughing: 

If it is HUGE gear, measure the top two, install the anchors, drill the cabinet holes out bigger (use washers if necessary)take off the nuts, lift the gear into place and drill/install the other 2-4 once level.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I go through the short sleeve anchors like candy, mounting panels straight to the wall. :laughing:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> This fire melting the lead anchor thing. Any case histories? I would only say most panels of that size are put in with conduit.


All rumors. I have never seen it happen, or looked for case studies. 

I would use the lead anchors for wall mounting anything I needed to, unless for spec reasons.

I would not use them in ceilings. Ceilings are always steel drop in anchors.


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## 347volts (Jul 5, 2014)

220/221 said:


> It doesn't grab the hollow because...it's air .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So is a 2-1/4" sleeve anchor the size I should look for to grab the hollow part of the block. That would have made my life much easier than finding the solid of a block and measuring out the tub to see where it lands and drilling a hole. Could just drill right through the tub and fasten it that way

The gear doesn't take 4 guys to hang, takes 4 guys to lift it :laughing:




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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

1/2" or 3/8" sleeve anchors, drill, 3lb baby sledge hammer and an impact with a socket. 
If the can is heavy, just screw a couple of 1/4" tap cons on the wall under the can to rest it on.
If you are a real hack, level everything up and shoot a nail in the middle of the can to hold it in place.
Everything here is block. I haven't seen a Tamp in lead anchor used here in over 20 years.
Toggle bolts are only used in drywall here.
The carpenters use lead shields and lag bolts.
Electricians use sleeve anchors.


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> This fire melting the lead anchor thing. Any case histories? I would only say most panels of that size are put in with conduit.


Most hospital specs say no in ceiling deck. Only place that I have seen. Never worked in high rise districts though. Imagine the same.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

347volts said:


> So is a 2-1/4" sleeve anchor the size I should look for to grab the hollow part of the block.


Now that I think about it, I think they are 1 7/8". I can look tomorrow.

The block is probably less than 2" thick so 2 1/4 would be a touch long.


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

Nobody bolts all the way through the wall?

The foreman on a recent job did it. 
1/2" bolts all the way through the wall.
4" square plates on the opposite side of the wall for the bolts to grab onto.
Interior wall, no water ingress to worry about.

We also do the spring nuts, strut, drop-in anchor technique.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

BBS said:


> Nobody bolts all the way through the wall?
> 
> The foreman on a recent job did it.
> 1/2" bolts all the way through the wall.
> ...



Bolts through the wall to hold up what? That's just crazy


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

2 large Square D panels
1 large distribution center
Large Transfer Switch

Probably overkill but it isn't going anywhere.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Bolts through the wall to hold up what? That's just crazy


I'm doing that tomarrow. To hold up an 18 RMU locking server rack.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

BBS said:


> 2 large Square D panels
> 1 large distribution center
> Large Transfer Switch
> 
> Probably overkill but it isn't going anywhere.



If it's not open bottom pad mounted equipment it's not large. And if it is open bottom pad mounted equipment it surely doesn't need 1/2 bolts through a cmu wall to hold it up. In my not really humble opinion.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2014)

I use "caulk in" style anchors. 3/8 and 1/4 inch. You will need to buy the set tool from greenlee. These anchors are specifically designed for block wall. I use them for everything concrete. They will hold a chugger to the floor.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Extremely easy.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

jrannis said:


> 1/2" or 3/8" sleeve anchors, drill, 3lb baby sledge hammer and an impact with a socket.
> If the can is heavy, just screw a couple of 1/4" tap cons on the wall under the can to rest it on.
> If you are a real hack, level everything up and shoot a nail in the middle of the can to hold it in place.
> Everything here is block. I haven't seen a Tamp in lead anchor used here in over 20 years.
> ...


When I was down there it was "nail ins" or Tapcons for block.
In fact the first time I used a Tapcon was at the Aventura Mall project.
I never hung anything requiring going all the way through with bolts or allthread. I have used this method to hand a xfmr before.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> Extremely easy.


Hex head only. Phillips or straight slot heads suck.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

3D Electric said:


> Extremely easy.


I trust those less than a powder actuated tool, which is a lot easier.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

five.five-six said:


> I trust those less than a powder actuated tool, which is a lot easier.


I tried tapcons once a few years ago. Out of the 4-5 I tried, only one of them held. The others either stripped out or I snapped the heads off. I was using a brand new rotohammer bit also.

Fast forward to a few months ago, someone on here was talking about using tapcons, so I decided to give them a chance again. I picked up a few different lengths of the 1/4" hex head style from HD. I also bought a new rotohammer bit. I was able to successfully install all 20 or so that I used. Some of them went in pretty tight and I would have to back them out after installing them only halfway. But, they would sink all the way in after that without stripping out or snapping the heads off. 

I think the trick is to follow the depth requirements, don't buy too short/long of a screw for the task and make sure you're using a good STRAIGHT bit with a clean hole that isn't filled with concrete dust.

They're definitely one of the more finicky anchors to install as far as concrete fastening is concerned but the ability to remove them easily with nothing but a small hole left behind is a huge plus.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Cow said:


> I tried tapcons once a few years ago. Out of the 4-5 I tried, only one of them held. The others either stripped out or I snapped the heads off. I was using a brand new rotohammer bit also.
> 
> Fast forward to a few months ago, someone on here was talking about using tapcons, so I decided to give them a chance again. I picked up a few different lengths of the 1/4" hex head style from HD. I also bought a new rotohammer bit. I was able to successfully install all 20 or so that I used. Some of them went in pretty tight and I would have to back them out after installing them only halfway. But, they would sink all the way in after that without stripping out or snapping the heads off.
> 
> ...



That's interesting. I've been using tapcons almost exclusively for as long as I can remember. I might strip out one out of 100, maybe, but probably not even that. I use them for anything from 4squares to panel boards.


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## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> That's interesting. I've been using tapcons almost exclusively for as long as I can remember. I might strip out one out of 100, maybe, but probably not even that. I use them for anything from 4squares to panel boards.


 Same here. I've done several concrete tilt up car washes and we used boxes and boxes of them. The most trouble I had with them was when I just grazed rebar with the drill bit and the tapcon was just a wee bit too big and snapped or stripped.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks for the 411 Cow.... I think I will stick with the Ramset for now... It's a lot faster and a whole lot more fun!


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Use a hollow wall set for block walls.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> I'm installing a server cabinet tomarrow on a cinder block wall. I've decided to use 10 inch 1/2" carriage bolts.


I quit buying carriage bolts. Everyone I bought was defective.
They forgot to put in the slot for the screwdriver!


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Mich drew said:


> I still use lead anchors installed with a hollow wall set.


Thats what i use and yes, i have still installed panels in block walls if they are finished blocks.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Tapcons are ok but my two favorite anchors are drive pins and sleeves. With Those two you can anchor almost anything to just about any masonry. 

Drop ins being my third favorite,mainly for floor anchoring when stuff is gonna be moved one day and no one wants to go around and cut hundreds of studs off.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cow said:


> I tried tapcons once a few years ago. Out of the 4-5 I tried, only one of them held. The others either stripped out or I snapped the heads off. I was using a brand new rotohammer bit also.
> 
> Fast forward to a few months ago, someone on here was talking about using tapcons, so I decided to give them a chance again. I picked up a few different lengths of the 1/4" hex head style from HD. I also bought a new rotohammer bit. I was able to successfully install all 20 or so that I used. Some of them went in pretty tight and I would have to back them out after installing them only halfway. But, they would sink all the way in after that without stripping out or snapping the heads off.
> 
> ...


I have had nothing but success with Tapcons. But you are correct about the drill bit. You need a clean hole the proper size or the Tapcon will just spin out. ( I have been on jobs where they were having troubles to find out they were using the wrong size drill bit). It will happen sometimes just as any other anchor will fail.
I find the efficiency outweighs using anything else.
Also, I have had some block that seemed softer that others and that would cause a problem.
But I would just use a socket and ratchet and run them in by hand. Its hard to **** it up if you run them in by hand.



five.five-six said:


> Thanks for the 411 Cow.... I think I will stick with the Ramset for now... It's a lot faster and a whole lot more fun!


It seems every time I ever had to use a Ramset, I was working for a cheap ass hack.
Their noisy, their dangerous and they are not needed.
Besides, they suck on block walls. I have seen them blow out chuncks of concrete and they had to reposition the box because of it.
Ramset might be okay for a fabricated wall and you have hundreds of holes to make.





Jlarson said:


> Tapcons are ok but my two favorite anchors are drive pins and sleeves. With Those two you can anchor almost anything to just about any masonry.


I like drive pins (nail ins) too as my second favorite fastener. Easier than tapcons.
I always kept a *long* sharp chisel around in case I had to remove any.
Don't forget your gloves when removing them.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

tates1882 said:


> anyone mounting them to block. I would love to see someone recess a panel in block, the masons would probably stuff you into the hollow spots


I used to install recessed panels in block walls all the time. Whats the problem?


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## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

tates1882 said:


> Same here. I've done several concrete tilt up car washes and we used boxes and boxes of them. The most trouble I had with them was when I just grazed rebar with the drill bit and the tapcon was just a wee bit too big and snapped or stripped.


If you strip one out, take a piece of tie wire and fold it in half. The fine shed length at least the depth of the hole. Stick it in bent side first, then run tapcon in. The wire will fill in the extra space to tighten the hole up. Viola. Fixed enough. Clip excess tie wire off for a professional job. Bingo.


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