# Help... Gfi indication lights dim



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

It means that there's a lot of ground current flowing on those two phases. It could be leakage current through the conductor insulation, it could be surface tracking over stand-off insulators, or it could be capacitive current based on the system design.

Pay close attention to when this is happening and what changes in the system that corrosponds to when this is happening. Is a large underground circuit being turned on? Big motors turning on? 

Also, what is the third lamp doing? Getting extremely bright? You need to take line-to-ground measurements on all phases. 

That said, the fact that it's happening to two out of three phases suggests it's likely not fault related and is just a result of system design. Unless you have very low line-to-ground voltage measurements I probably wouldn't worry about it.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the quick reply. 

I have isolated the secondary side loads of the transformer as it feeds a main breaker of a large panel and I have turned it off. Only things left connected is the primary and secondary conductors and of course the 600v breaker feeding it. 

We have energized the transformer and test the lamps. We now notice that a and c are dim and b seem bright ( brighter than normal I can't say)

We measured voltages and found on the 600v primary
A to ground 350v
B to ground was fluctuating between 180 and 350
C to geound was 350

A to b was 50v
A to c was 600v
B to c was 600v

Secondary
A to geound is 175v
B to ground is 350v
C to ground is 185v

A to b 27 v
A to c 240v
B to c 240v 

Keep in mind this is a 2 could auto transformer that the high and low side of the b winding is tied with a tie bar and goes into the a and c windings.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Something isn't right. Isolate the transformer primary and if need be, take measurements at the line side of the feeder. If possible use something like a solenoid-tester or low-impedance meter.

You should have uniform 600V line-to-line on all phases, so if you've really got 50V L-L there's a definite issue.

Of less concern, is that your B-G reading is changing drastically with no load. This should be pretty darn stable. 

Sounds like you've got a fault somewhere. Start isolating stuff by sections and measuring voltages.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Ok. So I've retested everything again and here is what I've found. I realize I shouldn't have tested to ground on the transformer secondary as is may cause issues with phasing. 

Turned off. Re energized found all phases were normal 600v phase to phase on primary and 240v phase to phase secondary. Remember I still have the secondary loads isolated from the transformer. 

Now the indicator lights on the unit are the a and c lights are dim and the b light is out. I don't trust this damn thing because if I start moving lights around whiles it's on it changes which bulb is out and which one is dim. I used a meter and tested the lamps and found them all to have continuity. So I believe the lamps are ok. But I'm not 100% confident in this as of yet.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Big john. Thanks  

The secondary of the transformer is completely isolated from loads other than copper losses on the conductors to the main breaker of the panel it is feeding as that break is open.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

is the unit grounded at all ? the ground reference voltages mean nothing if it's not.

Like John said, there is something drastically wrong with the phase to phase voltages. I hope you have checked case to phase, and are wearing PPE.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> ...Turned off. Re energized found all phases were normal 600v phase to phase on primary and 240v phase to phase secondary. Remember I still have the secondary loads isolated from the transformer....


 I think you've got a high-resistance pole in the disconnect feeding this transformer. The transformer itself really isn't gonna affect the phase-to-phase voltage readings on the primary, so the fact that you had 50V line-to-line is a huge red flag.

The fact that you were getting screwy readings that changed when you operated the disconnect, really suggests you've got a problem at that device. 

Can you safely put a load on this and do a voltage-drop test across each pole on the breaker? And I second the use of PPE because it sounds like you're dealing with equipment that is in the process of breaking down.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I wasn't sure if this was relevant but I have to enter it as I believe it is. 

This transformer is fed from a breaker. Not a disconnect. 

This is what has brought us to this point. 
- yesterday when we were testing and trying to the energize and isolate the sub panels or devices that we're causing the issue we found some other things that may give some conclusions. 
- we found that the 3 phase 600/240v sub transformer that is feeding a 600amp 240v panel was tripping the main 600v 800amp ground fault breaker after about 30 min with the existing loads that were in it still intact. We had only disconnected a few items we originally were the issue. 
- at this point we energized the main and the breaker this time again to try and find a load that was evident to the problem. At about the 30 minute mark I heard a pipe rattle and the main tripped again. 

The reason I believe the problem is existing in a load somewhere is because it takes 30 minutes to trip and because we are going through a seasonal temp change ( heaters run at night but AC runs during the day sometimes ) I have to believe this problem is directly related to a load like a motor rooftop unit, exhaust fan, or something on a time delay or ancillary controller that is trying to pull in a motor of some sort at that time frame. 

I personally don't think the transformer is the problem. However I am not done ruling it out yet.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

You don't seem to think that your phase-to-phase voltage readings were weird or worth investigating. I don't understand why that is.

I don't know why you're tripping GFP, but a 600V system should never read 50V phase-to-phase anywhere, so that's darn sure where I'd start looking.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I believe it is worth investigating however with the amount of different equipment and possibilities as to the problem in this building is so extensive that I have to start somewhere. 

Another thing I considered was I could have measured too quickly after the transformer was energized as it was still exciting the coils. Could that not be an explainable possibility.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> ...Another thing I considered was I could have measured too quickly after the transformer was energized as it was still exciting the coils. Could that not be an explainable possibility.


 No, unfortunately, the excitation period for a transformer happens much faster than that. And you know it's not measurement error, because you saw the problem translate through to your transformer secondary where the voltage on that phase was also low. 

I understand you gotta start somewhere, I guess my question is: What other thing are you looking at which appears to be a bigger problem than missing a feeder phase? 

Also, now that your getting solid 600V on all phases, what does your L-G measurement look like with no load?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Hi again. 

Remeasured . Transformer has been on an hour now. Found 600 phase to phase and 350 phase to ground. 

Keep in mind the secondary b phase is tied directly to the primary b phase with a bar. So on secondary I got 187 to ground from a and c phases and 350 b to ground.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

All your phase-to-ground readings rock solid this time? All your low-voltage phase-to-phase readings normal? 

What type of breaker and trip unit is it that was going out on ground-fault?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Hi john


Phase voltage is not moving. It's solid. The b to ground is not 187 but that is because of the way this transformer is wound. 

The type of trip unit is a STR55UP trip unit. The breaker is listed as a "horizon" which I've never seen before.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

l0sts0ul said:


> I........... I heard a pipe rattle and the main tripped again.
> 
> The reason I believe the problem is existing in a load somewhere is because it takes 30 minutes to trip and because we are going through a seasonal temp change ..





> I heard a pipe rattle and the main tripped again.


and you don't think you have a fault ?


Being that your say line is connected to your load on B phase, I'm out. I don't know what kind of configuration this is, and I don't want to know. It's beyond me. I'm sure John can help you, though.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Here's what we know:


Wrong voltage recorded on A-B
Very suspect L-G voltage record on B phase
Audible high-current event (pipe rattling)
Ground-fault protection operating
Voltage problems vanished after breaker was operated
If you are missing a feeder phase you will have:


Wrong L-L voltage on at least one, and would expect 2, phases
Wrong L-G voltage on missing phase
Over-current events any time a 3⌀ load starts
GFP may trip due to severe current imbalanced
Can be caused by failing breaker contacts
Brother, I sincerely think you need to save yourself some time and headache and start looking upstream at the feeder breaker to figure out if this is causing phase loss. Everything you've said is pointing right at it.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I do believe I have a fault. That is why I'm here. 

The auto transformer I believe is open delta however I'm not sure why the primary and secondary of the transformer of the b phase is tied together.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Quick side question john. Have you ever seen that type of auto transformer and if so. Why would the b phase be tied together like that. 



Are you suggesting checking the 250amp 600 v breaker feeding this transformer? If so how would, you suggest I test it? And what am I looking for ? 

Because the area I heard the rattle In was another part of the building when the trips happened and the time frame of over 30 minutes before a trip is the reason for my approach. The weird voltages are gone. As to why there were there at all could have been me when using the meter. That's also why I checked twice because the readings seemed too weird to not double check.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> Quick side question john. Have you ever seen that type of auto transformer and if so. Why would the b phase be tied together like that.


 Yes, it's normal for an open-delta. They don't care about the phase-to-ground voltages, so it doesn't matter that one phase is carried through. Using 2 windings bucks the other two phases compared to the "high" phase and to each other. End result is lower-voltage three phase.


> ...Are you suggesting checking the 250amp 600 v breaker feeding this transformer...?


 If that was the breaker you operated to make them go away, that's where I'd start.


> ...If so how would, you suggest I test it? And what am I looking for...?


 You're looking for high-resistance on the B phase. Put a load on the breaker and measure voltage from line-to-load on each phase. It should be almost nothing because each phase is a short circuit. Switch down to the millivolt range and re-measure, again it should be almost nothing, and the readings between phases should be very similar.

If necessary, operate the breaker several times and re-test between each operation. When you find high resistance, it will show up as voltage drop.


> ...Because the area I heard the rattle In was another part of the building when the trips happened and the time frame of over 30 minutes before a trip is the reason for my approach....


 Understood, but this could also be related to a three phase load trying to start while single phasing. Are there any other 3 phase loads currently running on the breaker that had tripping GFP?


> ...The weird voltages are gone....


That's why I'd start at the breaker you touched. But it could be upstream from there.


> ...As to why there were there at all could have been me when using the meter. That's also why I checked twice because the readings seemed too weird to not double check.


 It's not you. Not only because you double checked, but the transformer proved it for you: It took your crappy high side voltage and reduced it to a crappy low side voltage which you also measured.

Put loads on and start looking at feeder breakers.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for your help john 

At this point this is what we are doing. We have re energized the transformer and are watching voltages. Which seem fine for now. 

We are energizing 2 breakers on the 240v panel that is fed from this transformer at a time. Watching readings and waiting at least 30 minutes at a time to re energize anything else documenting as we go. 

I will check the transformer breaker as soon as I can de energize and make safe to remove the cover from the main cdp


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm curious.

this is an ungrounded open delta ?

what are you using for ground reference ?

Do the lights still indicate fault on both A and C ?

if it is ungrounded delta, does that mean he potentially has dangerous voltage on exposed metal parts ?

not familiar with this set up (I'm a light commercial guy).

thanks in advance


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Sounds like you've got a good plan. Two final questions:

Is the transformer breaker you operated the same 800A breaker with GFP?

When the 800A GFP is energized, are there any big three phase loads that start immediately?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Hi john. 

The GFP is on the 800amp 600v main that energized a cdp unit with multiple breakers. 1 being the 250a 600v breaker feeding this 150kva 600v / 240v transformer. 

There are no loads that are big that start up on energizing the transformer that we are aware of. However keep in mind this building covers almost a full city block and has 7 different spaces warehouse size with everything from machine and carpentry sops to welding centres and offices. 


We are working on narrowing it down to a sub branch feeder then we can start working towards a single device cause this issue. I'm hoping a rooftop MUA or exhaust fan but at this point it could be a compressor or who knows. 

Gotta start somewhere.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'll be real interested to hear what you find. Keep us posted.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I will thank you for your help. Keep close. May have more questions lol


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Ok we'll here's an update. 

We previously turned off all the rtu, MUA, exhaust, AC and we found and old condensate pump that looks like it had been through ww2. We isolated about 16 or so devices and are going back this morning to megger the windings of those motors and test the resistance of whatever we can fin in the control cabinet that would possibly cause this ground fault. 

We were able to restore the 3 phase 240v and all the sub breakers fed by the transformer all the while measuring voltages at the 240v side to ensure stability (. We used the 240 side because it was easiest and safest to measure from a spot down stream from the transformer)

So at this point here we are. We will test out the motors we disconnected one and a time and see what happens. 

I'll keep posting and hopefully we can find our answer.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

l0sts0ul said:


> Hey
> 
> Have a 600v to 240v auto transformer that has 3 indicator lights for ground fault indication. 2 of the 3 lights are dim.
> 
> ...


The light that is out, is the phase that has the ground on it. 
These units were only required with an ungrounded delta system. I have a very systems that the GIL were left installed after the utility upgraded to Y.
Turn everything off, get all three lamps lit up and then re-energize only 1 at a time, till one of the lights goes off.

Horizon breakers are a replacement for FPE


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

We tried turning everything off. Except the transformer. The lights stayed the same. The only thing that would have remained connected on the load side of the transformer ( as that is where the GIL are) would be the conductors connected to the breaker on the line side of the panel the transformer feeds. But that breaker we opened to clear the faults. It did not. 

How can I test the transformer for a ground fault using a meter when it is de energized? I've tried metering and metering but the readings were legit. 

Is it possible the ground fault is in the transformer?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't think you have a ground fault in the transformer, but a megger would go a long way towards proving that. 1kV for 60 seconds.

Am I to understand that you guys have been running continuously and haven't tripped again? Have any of the larger 3Ø loads been cycling on and off?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

The system has been running for all last night at today with nothing happening so far. 

We have isolated rooftops and rxhaust fans. Whatever we could see easily accessible. So we are going to test out equipment today and see. 

Remember there is a 30 minute time window before it usually tripped. So we are keying on things like heat controls etc. 

On another note, on a 3 phase delta transformer like this. Can you run 2 pole breakers rated at 250v? Or not. I don't think so but I want to ask. This transformer is not metered.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

The breaker needs to capable of interrupting the maximum voltage that could ever be imposed across a single pole. If you had a ground fault on one phase of this delta, and it never opened, you'd have 240V on the other phases to ground. If you were using a 120/240 slash rated breaker, that means it's only designed to interrupt 120V using any single pole, and it would not be suitable.

Two things I'd like to clarify:

Do you have loads that have stayed disconnected since you began troubleshooting, and are still slowly turning them on one item at a time? I'm trying to understand whether everything that could potentially have a ground-fault has already been energized at least once.

And is _everything_ located on the load side of this transformer? Or is some of that equipment straight 600V?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Ok. First. The breakers are 250v that I've found that are 2 pole. I'm not sure if this answers your question but I need to know. 

Secondly we are energizing the equipment 1 piece at a time as we speak. Waiting a few and metering out motors as we go to try and find the fault. 

The load side of the 250 amp breaker we are running this transformer off of only feeds this transformer which goes to the main breaker of another panel.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

There is some 600v equipment on this building. However it is not connected to this transformer other than on the same buss in the main cabinet where the 250amp breaker feeding this transformer is


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> Ok. First. The breakers are 250v that I've found that are 2 pole. I'm not sure if this answers your question but I need to know.


 You gotta look at the rating of the breaker. It doesn't matter how many poles it has. It will say on it either 120/240V or just plain 240V.


> The load side of the 250 amp breaker we are running this transformer off of only feeds this transformer which goes to the main breaker of another panel.


 Alright, so there's a lot of other 600V equipment, then. Has any of this stuff been energized yet?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

dumb a## question.
Have they had any roof repairs etc done in the last little while?
I had a site where the roofer had screwed the roof insulation down and his screws went thru the pipe, nailing the wires inside. Since it was an ungrounded system , nothing tripped, but the voltages were all over the place. And to make matters worse, no Ground Fault lights installed.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Finding ground faults on these systems can be quite time consuming if not using the right equipment. We have a sleuth device that we can connect to a faulted system. It creates a high resistance ground to the system that cycles the resistance to 3resistance values. We can then, using a flex probe, trace the cycling signature and locate the ground fault without shutting any system down. Generally, we can locate the fault within an hour.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

All other equipment has been energized that is not on the 240v 3 phase. 

I will check the exact rating on the breakers. If they are 250v rated does that mean it is fine?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> ...I will check the exact rating on the breakers. If they are 250v rated does that mean it is fine?


 Yes, straight 240 volt is fine.

Did you ever do a fall-of-potential test on the transformer main when under load, or have you not gotten that far yet?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Have not done that yet. 

Turns out the breakers are 120/240. Have to change those I guess.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

If I used the 120/240 breakers and only had them in the a and c phases would that not stop the risk of an issue here?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

No. The only time a single pole of that breaker is gonna be called on to operate is during a double ground fault, at which point it will be opening full phase-to-phase voltage so it needs to be rated for that.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Ok. But phase to phase on that breaker is 240v max. To ground is 188.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> Ok. But phase to phase on that breaker is 240v max. To ground is 188.


 Right now this isn't a grounded system, so it doesn't matter what the floating ground voltage is. When you ground one phase, the other two are gonna read 240V to ground, and everything will keep running because there's no short circuit yet. 

When a second phase develops a ground fault is when the breaker is gonna try and trip, and at that point there will be 240V across a single pole that's only designed to open 120V. It might operate fine. It might fail spectacularly. No telling.

And actually, are you 1000% certain this is an autotransformer? Can you post a picture of the nameplate? I'm wondering if this whole facility is actually ungrounded.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I posted an internal pic back in page one. The unit is labelled as an auto transformer. But like I said at the beginning the b phase is wierd and looks like an open delta setup but I'm not 100% familiar with it. 

So you're saying I would have to run 3 pole breakers to accomodate the 2 pole hookup as they are usually the only ones rated directly for 240


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> I posted an internal pic back in page one. The unit is labelled as an auto transformer. But like I said at the beginning the b phase is wierd and looks like an open delta setup but I'm not 100% familiar with it....


 It's similar to this, but this picture is a boosting setup, I can't find a bucking picture, but you can see that "2" B phase carries straight through:










> So you're saying I would have to run 3 pole breakers to accomodate the 2 pole hookup as they are usually the only ones rated directly for 240


 All I'm saying is the breaker cannot be slash rated 120/240. If the only way to find a straight 240V breaker is to use a three pole, then yes, I suppose you'd have to use that.

As an aside, now I'm convinced the entire facility is ungrounded. If you can get all the lamps on your GIL to light up, I'm even more convinced the problem is most likely not a ground fault in a piece of equipment.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

FOUND THIS M0ther&;@[email protected]:&: I knew it was a motor somewhere. 

Found an RTU that started about 28 minutes after we Switched the disconnect back on and it scared the crap outta me because I was meggering a motor beside it when it pulled in. 

Meggered it out and found it was a hermetic Refridgeration compressor on a 3 phase unit that was about 40 years old. Megger at 1vdc 0.0 ohm insulation resistance. Checked the 2nd compressor beside it and was at about 78mohm to ground each phase. 


I think we got it. 

But I still gotta figure out all the 2 pole breaker issues in here


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Did it trip your GFP? Can you separate the compressor windings and meg each one? Is it 600V or 240V?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

And I need to find out why we only have 2 lights on the gfi detector EVEN WITH all loads dosconnected


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Yes. When it tried to start the compressor after about 28 minutes it tripped the gfp. It is 240v and runs through the transformer.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

l0sts0ul said:


> And I need to find out why we only have 2 lights on the gfi detector EVEN WITH all loads dosconnected


 I thought you said you had a bad lightbulb?


> ...I don't trust this damn thing because if I start moving lights around whiles it's on it changes which bulb is out and which one is dim...


 All those lights are doing is giving a visual indication of voltage. Use your voltmeter.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Picture as requested


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

No. I tested the bulbs and they have continuity. 

I uses my voltmeter and the voltage was fine.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I would love to be there for this, because it sounds like there's all kindsa crap going on with this system. 

You're saying that you have one lamp that is dark no matter where you put it, but it rings out good on continuity? I still have to assume bad lamp.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

No. If I move the lamps around. Other lamps become bright and other become dim but all 3 work.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Oh. I still wouldn't put any stock in those. If your phase-to-ground voltages aren't changing, then don't worry about what the lamps are doing.

For all we know you've got different wattages of lamps, so some are dim no matter what phase they're on and some are brighter no matter what phase they're on.


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## Tsmil (Jul 17, 2011)

Sounds like someone has replaced a lamps with the wrong type. Replace all 3 with proper lamps.


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## V-Dough (Jul 22, 2014)

Big John said:


> The breaker needs to capable of interrupting the maximum voltage that could ever be imposed across a single pole. If you had a ground fault on one phase of this delta, and it never opened, you'd have 240V on the other phases to ground. If you were using a 120/240 slash rated breaker, that means it's only designed to interrupt 120V using any single pole, and it would not be suitable.


Do american breakers even come in straight 240V ratings?
I think you can either use IEC breakers (230/400V) or 277/480V.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

V-Dough said:


> Do american breakers even come in straight 240V ratings?
> I think you can either use IEC breakers (230/400V) or 277/480V.


 Yeah, they make them, but they're spendy. And to be honest, on 240V delta panels I see this violation all the time. I'd wager there are more code violations than compliant installs.


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## V-Dough (Jul 22, 2014)

So I guess you just ask supplier for straight 240 instead 120/240? I can bet its not in stock 
Why do they use delta on distribution anyways?
Are there any benefits other than saving a wire and cheaper transformer?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

I still think this trnsformer is an issue. With them using a high leg. Why not just install a standard auto that has 3 coils for 240v ? Then you would have 240v phase to phase on all 3 phases then there wouldn't be any issues


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

All I can say is that nothing you've written here points at the transformer being the problem. 

I agree it is weird to use an autotransformer for that much of a voltage reduction. I can't explain why they would do that, except that it would allow them to monitor the ground integrity of the whole system with one set of lamps. Not a likely reason, though.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> Yeah, they make them, but they're spendy. And to be honest, on 240V delta panels I see this violation all the time. *I'd wager there are more code violations than compliant installs*.


:laughing: You can say that more than once:laughing: Out of curiosity, how much AIC does a slash rated breaker loose on a non slash system?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Did this ever get squared away? Curious about what ended up happening.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Like I said. We found the ground fault on a Refridgeration compressor motor. Restored power completely and all is good. Customer hasn't decided if they want to replace the lights on the gfi indicator or the whole unit. So it's in their hands now.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Compressor still isolated or has the motor been swapped out?


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

It's isolated. But the second compressor is drawing 2 amp over current on the b phase so it's just a matter of time before that one cooks too. 

They consulted the hvac contractor and decided to let it run for now and will replace the entire RTU when budgeting permits. 

Can't force them to shut it down. It's their call. They asked my opinion. I said shut it down but they wanted to run it. In a couple weeks there won't be any call for cooling and the heat will run and they will forget about it until April or May next yeAr. 

Thanks again for all your help


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