# Lighting contactor recommendation



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

ASCO is top of them in my opinion, Square D very good as well.

Do not even let GE cross your mind.:no::no:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> ASCO is top of them in my opinion, Square D very good as well.
> 
> Do not even let GE cross your mind.:no::no:


Yes, no way in the world would I ever use GE aka Garbage Equipment.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I have used these a bunch of times to control lighting loads.. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Compact-Contactor-4DD09?Pid=search


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm gonna toss Eaton in along with Asco and SQD


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Can I steal power for the coils from the 30 amp lighting circuit, or do I need to run a separate control circuit? 

No big deal if I do since it will all be in pipe. No romex and Carlons on this job. :laughing:


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## fraydo (Mar 30, 2009)

Why aren't they providing the control panel? Is it because it's a small project? All the projects in this neck of the woods are football and baseball fields and all the control panels are premade.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

fraydo said:


> Why aren't they providing the control panel? Is it because it's a small project? All the projects in this neck of the woods are football and baseball fields and all the control panels are premade.


Yeah, it's a small project, only 4 poles, and they are trying to save as much money as possible. The original bid included the control panel but they cut it out.


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## fraydo (Mar 30, 2009)

Interesting. I guess I would choose Eaton then maybe Sq D


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, it's a small project, only 4 poles, and they are trying to save as much money as possible. The original bid included the control panel but they cut it out.


This is a (4) pole contactor.. Square D.. so you call me a hack .. for $70.00.. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Contactor-5KAK5?Pid=search


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> This is a (4) pole contactor.. Square D.. so you call me a hack .. for $70.00.. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Contactor-5KAK5?Pid=search


Those are fine contactors, although it's only UL Recognized not UL Listed, making it a technical no no. And really if all that was need was an electrically held contactor I'd get something IEC, slightly cheaper and Listed. 

Really the only reason I give a damn is cause I can get the listed option cheaper. 



See what you have done BBQ, I'm becoming you. :blink::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Those are fine contactors, although it's only UL Recognized not UL Listed, making it a technical no no. And really if all that was need was an electrically held contactor I'd get something IEC, slightly cheaper and Listed.
> 
> Really the only reason I give a damn is cause I can get the listed option cheaper.
> 
> ...


I don't think the conductors being controlled are going to mind that the contactor is only recognized and not listed.. who gives a flying ..:no:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> I don't think the conductors being controlled are going to mind that the contactor is only recognized and not listed.. who give a flying ..:no:


Personally this is one area I follow the UL stuff, I know I blow off UL on stuff like fittings, but once you get into contactors, starters, breakers it's time to get on the UL bandwagon IMO.



The other reason I like IEC stuff over DP contactors is the IEC ones snap onto DIN rail. DIN rail is like crack to me, yes I just compared a panel building supply to crack :yes: :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Personally this is one area I follow the UL stuff, I know I blow off UL on stuff like fittings, but once you get into contactors, starters, breakers it's time to get on the UL bandwagon IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> The other reason I like IEC stuff over DP contactors is the IEC ones snap onto DIN rail. DIN rail is like crack to me, yes I just compared a panel building supply to crack :yes: :laughing:


So you are saying a multi-billion dollar company like Grainger is selling parts that should not be used to control lighting loads..

It says "Standards UL/CSA".. :blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Those are fine contactors, although it's only UL Recognized not UL Listed, making it a technical no no. And really if all that was need was an electrically held contactor I'd get something IEC, slightly cheaper and Listed.
> 
> Really the only reason I give a damn is cause I can get the listed option cheaper.
> 
> ...




Jlarson what is the diffrence betweeen Recognized and listed,,

I think that is just the writer is to lazy to use the proper terms..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> So you are saying a multi-billion dollar company like Grainger is selling parts that should not be used to control lighting loads..
> 
> It says "Standards UL/CSA".. :blink:


It'll handle the load fine, I should know I've used about a bazillion of them to do it. 


Technically there is a difference between UL Recognized and UL Listed. I find the whole business an annoying pile of BS that really only makes people money, _that's it_. 

Like I said I really only started using Listed IEC stuff cause it's cheaper, I like cheap, lets me rake in more money :thumbup:. I could still use DP stuff though cause it passes 99% of the time here it seems.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Jlarson what is the diffrence betweeen Recognized and listed


Recognized parts are used to manufacture a Listed product or a product that will be listed. Like an air conditioning RTU, probably the largest use of DP contactors, the whole unit is UL listed as one thing. 


Little side note, we've had to rebuild RTU's and other such equipment because even though it's listed the SCCR can still be too low for some systems.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> It'll handle the load fine, I should know I've used about a bazillion of them to do it.
> 
> 
> Technically there is a difference between UL Recognized and UL Listed. I find the whole business an annoying pile of BS that really only makes people money, _that's it_.
> ...


I have some of those Sq. D contactors out in the field that are over (20) years old and still control the lights (2) times every day.. :thumbsup:

I could see you having to follow job specifications with the UL BS.. but this is for a Peter D. job.. nothing more needs to be said.. :thumbup:

He can call me a troll now.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Recognized parts are used to manufacture a Listed product or a product that will be listed. Like an air conditioning RTU, probably the largest use of DP contactors, the whole unit is UL listed as one thing.
> 
> 
> Little side note, we've had to rebuild RTU's and other such equipment because even though it's listed the SCCR can still be too low for some systems.


If you look at page 4 on this pdf you will see that the contactor is listed...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24809172/Schneider-Electric-Definite-Purpose-Control-Catalog


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> If you look at page 4 on this pdf you will see that the contactor is listed...
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/24809172/Schneider-Electric-Definite-Purpose-Control-Catalog


That's from 1998, they lost the listing sometime after 98'


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> That's from 1998, they lost the listing sometime after 98'



Do you have a link??:blink:

I could not find one..:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Do you have a link??:blink:
> 
> I could not find one..:laughing:


I just took the File # listed and put it into the UL file # search and was delivered to the no results found page.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I just took the File # listed and put it into the UL file # search and was delivered to the no results found page.


That happens every time i look for a UL file...:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> So you are saying a multi-billion dollar company like Grainger is selling parts that should not be used to control lighting loads..


Yes.

Those parts can be used for some things but not what you are suggesting.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> If you look at page 4 on this pdf you will see that the contactor is listed...
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/24809172/Schneider-Electric-Definite-Purpose-Control-Catalog





Jlarson said:


> That's from 1998, they lost the listing sometime after 98'


They are not listed because they do not have an SCCR rating which means you can not comply with 110.10


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yes.
> 
> Those parts can be used for some things but not what you are suggesting.


I don't understand why not.. :blink:

Any load connected to a terminal is the same no matter where it came from..

Definite Purpose Contactors
Quick-connect terminals and binder head screws enable easy straight-through wiring. Double-break contacts. Mechanical life: 500,000 operations. Compact design. Box lugs are standard on 40A and higher models. Auxiliary contact modules snap onto either side of standard models. Suitable for air compressors, agricultural equipment, pumps, food service equipment, and HVACR equipment.UL Recognized and CSA Certified.

Why would the listed equiptment be any different than lighting.. :blink:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I don't understand why not.. :blink:
> 
> Any load connected to a terminal is the same no matter where it came from..
> 
> ...



In an NEC installation you and I could not use a Definite Purpose Contactors to supply _any_ load. 

Manufactures can use Definite Purpose Contactors to supply any load they want because after the unit is built the entire unit is tested and listed. Graingers sells them because you can use them to replace DP contactors in equipment that have gone bad.

The only real NEC issue with DP contactors is the lack of SCCR, without that you cannot predict what will happen if the contactor closes into a short circuit. 

Hopefully the breaker just trips, on the other hand if the available fault current is high enough the DP contactor might fail explosively. (Not likely, just possible, they write safety codes to protect against these possibilities)


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Here is a whole bunch of info on SCCR rating.. http://www.moeller.net/binary/ver_techpapers/ver959en.pdf


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> I have some of those Sq. D contactors out in the field that are over (20) years old and still control the lights (2) times every day.. :thumbsup:
> 
> I could see you having to follow job specifications with the UL BS.. but this is for a Peter D. job.. nothing more needs to be said.. :thumbup:


Are you familiar with Musco lighting at all? This is a small project yet the lighting package alone (no installation) is costing $19,000 for 4 poles. There's money in the budget to use a few premium lighting contactors. 



> He can call me a troll now.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


No need to. I think it's obvious for anyone with eyes to see that you are.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Here is typical refrigeration rack I service, I grabbed this picture because it is still in great shape, some of the ones I work on look like a bin of scrap wire.

Anyway you can see the DP contactors and I bet the one that has been replaced was because it closed into a faulted compressor too many times.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Can I steal power for the coils from the 30 amp lighting circuit, or do I need to run a separate control circuit?
> 
> No big deal if I do since it will all be in pipe. No romex and Carlons on this job. :laughing:


I've seen it done that way, but I wouldn't do it.

If you have a short in one of the lights on that particular circuit it will effect the whole system.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> I've seen it done that way, but I wouldn't do it.
> 
> If you have a short in one of the lights on that particular circuit it will effect the whole system.



I was thinking I could use local fusing to avoid that problem.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I was thinking I could use local fusing to avoid that problem.


If the field wiring on the same circuit that you tapped the control circuit faults you lose the control circuit. I might find another circuit for control, but than again I might not.:thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ.. where is the OCP for the smaller conductors coming off the terminal block that feed the relays..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Here is typical refrigeration rack I service, I grabbed this picture because it is still in great shape, some of the ones I work on look like a bin of scrap wire.
> 
> Anyway you can see the DP contactors and I bet the one that has been replaced was because it closed into a faulted compressor too many times.


I would be uncomfortable working on that panel without arc flash protection. Way too much 480 volt stuff crammed into one little space.


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I was thinking I could use local fusing to avoid that problem.


Local fusing would probably be a good thing to do regardless, but you're probably going to have a much longer run than you would with a dedicated control circuit with more potential for problems in the line.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If the field wiring on the same circuit that you tapped the control circuit faults you lose the control circuit. I might find another circuit for control, but than again I might not.:thumbsup:


I've decided to run a control circuit. It won't be a big deal anyway.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> BBQ.. where is the OCP for the smaller conductors coming off the terminal block that feed the relays..


Those breakers above the DP contactors.


But two things.

1) Inside that enclosure it is really not an NEC issue

2) If it was an NEC issue the tap rules found in 240.21 would allow it anyway.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> I would be uncomfortable working on that panel without arc flash protection. Way too much 480 volt stuff crammed into one little space.



You are smart and that one is actually a nicer one as I said.



I am shutting these racks down more and more myself, I know how to do a proper 'pump down' so I can shut them down for as long as an hour or two before things start to get too warm.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You are smart


:nerd:



> and that one is actually a nicer one as I said.


I can well imagine. 




> I am shutting these racks down more and more myself, I know how to do a proper 'pump down' so I can shut them down for as long as an hour or two before things start to get too warm.


Nice, not worth 3rd degree burns to keep some groceries cool. :thumbsup:

Is that a phase loss relay above the timer?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Is that a phase loss relay above the timer?



Yes it is.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I just did some quick checking and there is nothing even close to a "definite purpose contactor" for controlling lighting loads..

They are reliable, fit any type of lighting design, and are most important CHEAP.. :thumbsup:

Am I the only one here who will keep using them now that the information has been made crystal clear..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Am I the only one here who will keep using them now that the information has been made crystal clear..


1) I need to pass inspections, if I use a DP I could fail and have to replace it.

2) I make the company money by selling electrical equipment. 25% mark up on a $600 part is more than a 25% mark up on a $60.00 part.

3) When people take the time to hire real electricians instead of a handy man I think they deserve a professional job and to me a professional job includes following the codes. When I violate a code (and it happens) I consider it unprofessional of myself. 

I mean we bitch and moan about the hack things trunk slammers do but what about ourselves?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> 3) When people take the time to hire real electricians instead of a handy man I think they deserve a professional job and to me a professional job includes following the codes.


That's why I started this thread. I can run pipe and wire all day long and do just fine, but when it comes to spec'ing this kind of equipment, it's out of my comfort zone. I learned what to ask for when I start looking to buy these units. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> 1) I need to pass inspections, if I use a DP I could fail and have to replace it.
> 
> 2) I make the company money by selling electrical equipment. 25% mark up on a $600 part is more than a 25% mark up on a $60.00 part.
> 
> ...


I agree with all you are saying.. but to sell a $600.00 part instead of a $60.00 does not work well in my world.. 

If you took your truck into the GMC dealer and they asked you if you wanted a genuine GMC dashboard relay for $600.00 or an aftermarket relay for $60.00.. what would you pick..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> If you took your truck into the GMC dealer and they asked you if you wanted a genuine GMC dashboard relay for $600.00 or an aftermarket relay for $60.00.. what would you pick..


That comparison is invalid. There is no code regulating the use of aftermarket parts on a vehicle.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> That comparison is invalid. There is no code regulating the use of aftermarket parts on a vehicle.


 
Peter, To keep you in the budget of the electrical, for this job. What's
the price difference between the two contactors ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I agree with all you are saying.. but to sell a $600.00 part instead of a $60.00 does not work well in my world..


I pulled the numbers out of the air, it would not be that much different. As Jlarson has pointed out IEC relays are inexpensive and are also NEC compliant. But IEC components are nowhere near as durable as the more expensive NEMA equivalents such as the ASCO, Square D or Eaton units recommended above.



> If you took your truck into the GMC dealer and they asked you if you wanted a genuine GMC dashboard relay for $600.00 or an aftermarket relay for $60.00.. what would you pick..


If I had decided I wanted to spend the money to send a vehicle to a dealership I want them to use factory parts, that would be why I sent it there. 

If I want to go cheap I am going to the local mechanic ... and I usually do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

For example if you compare this IEC contactor

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/GENERAL-ELECTRIC-Contactor-4ZZF1?Pid=search

With this DP contactor

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Contactor-2UTR5?Pid=search


Electrically they are about the same, the pricing is $42 vs $84, nothing the customer cannot pay for. 

Besides, we would not pay those Grainger prices ..........


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Peter D said:


> That comparison is invalid. There is no code regulating the use of aftermarket parts on a vehicle.


Why does every installation have to meet the code? What I mean is, every real electrician knows that not every violation is unsafe. I have used definite purpose contactors to control lighting loads because the only difference is in the name. Let's take two identical DP contactors. Let a factory tech install one in an enclosure and put a UL sticker on it. The other gets installed in an off-the-shelf cabinet by a field electrician. Mount them side by side. One passes, one fails.


This is where I disagree with many of the internet Code jockeys: Just because the Code forbids it doesn't make it unsafe. There are probably many reasons why the code writers make certain things off-limits. But if I have a situation where the Code forbids something, but the application I am facing wasn't what the intent of the Code meant, shouldn't I be allowed to proceed?

New install? Lighting Contactor. Inspected remodel? Lighting contactor. Replacement in a dusty old basement? Definite purpose. I don't personally consider it unprofessional to violate the Code if the original intent of the code isn't even the issue. A professional knows how to make a judgement call.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

BBQ, is the IEC a dry contact ? It reads magnetic, so I guess not.

How much is a dry contactor for the same design, to eliminate chatter, and noise ?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Why does every installation have to meet the code? What I mean is, every real electrician knows that not every violation is unsafe. I have used definite purpose contactors to control lighting loads because the only difference is in the name. Let's take two identical DP contactors. Let a factory tech install one in an enclosure and put a UL sticker on it. The other gets installed in an off-the-shelf cabinet by a field electrician. Mount them side by side. One passes, one fails.


What you say above is really not true.

They are not 'the same' other than a name. 

The reason a factory can use it in equipment is they test the entire unit for it's fault current handling.

If you use a contactor with unknown short circuit handling abilities in a circuit with a large available fault current it could fail badly.

Or do you think breaker fault current ratings are also a bunch of BS? 




> Just because the Code forbids it doesn't make it unsafe.


That is 100% true, no doubt about it.

What we have with DP contactor is an 'unknown' it may be perfectly safe (likely to be safe) but we can't say it is and if the crap hits the fan you will not be able to defend yourself. 



> There are probably many reasons why the code writers make certain things off-limits. But if I have a situation where the Code forbids something, but the application *I am facing wasn't what the intent of the Code meant, shouldn't I be allowed to proceed?*


No, I don't think that we in the field should get to change the rules at will, with contractors that would often lead to decisions based only on price not safety.



> I don't personally consider it unprofessional to violate the Code if the original intent of the code isn't even the issue.




Even if you don't really understand the reason the rule exists in the first place? 





> A professional knows how to make a judgement call.


So would you tell the customer 'I knowingly violated the code because I am a professional and made a judgment call?' 

To each their own, so far no one has given any legitimate reason not to use the right part and that is what the OP was looking for, the right parts.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> BBQ, is the IEC a dry contact ? It reads magnetic, so I guess not.
> 
> How much is a dry contactor for the same design, to eliminate chatter, and noise ?



????????:blink:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

What's the difference between a def. purpose and a regular contactor? Interupptuing rating?...Ive wired several but its a little out of my comfort zone as well.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> What's the difference between a def. purpose and a regular contactor? Interupptuing rating?...Ive wired several but its a little out of my comfort zone as well.


Thanks for reading the thread. :thumbup::thumbup:



ahhh yes it's fault current handling ability.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

BBQ said:


> ????????:blink:


No Savvy ?

Magnetic Lighting contactors make noise yes ? 

Solid State have no moving parts.

I've never used a Dry Contact type.

I shouldn't have said IEC


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Thanks for reading the thread. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ahhh yes it's fault current handling ability.


I skimmed through it, but that is what I kinda gathered...Thanks for not being too big of a dbag:jester::laughing:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

BBQ said:


> What you say above is really not true.
> 
> They are not 'the same' other than a name.


Not really true for some stuff. I have held quality DP contactors side by side with LC's and found no substantial difference.



> The reason a factory can use it in equipment is they test the entire unit for it's fault current handling.


Right, so if I have a tested factory unit with some DPC's, that's legal. But if I take those same DPC's out and use them in the same location, it isn't. That is where I disjoint with the Code.



> If you use a contactor with unknown short circuit handling abilities in a circuit with a large available fault current it could fail badly.
> 
> Or do you think breaker fault current ratings are also a bunch of BS?


Nope:no:. But most contactors I use aren't plugged straight into the bus of a panel.




> What we have with DP contactor is an 'unknown' it may be perfectly safe (likely to be safe) but we can't say it is and if the crap hits the fan you will not be able to defend yourself.


Very true. We take calculated risks all the time based on our prior experiences of similar situations. In most lighting applications, in my experience, the contactors haven't erupted into a fireball because of a short. 



> No, I don't think that we in the field should get to change the rules at will, with contractors that would often lead to decisions based only on price not safety.


I agree for the most part. And I myself can do things I wouldn't recommend others to do, because others are more unscrupulous than I.



> Even if you don't really understand the reason the rule exists in the first place?





> So would you tell the customer 'I knowingly violated the code because I am a professional and made a judgment call?'


All I tell the customer is who to make the check out to.



> To each their own, so far no one has given any legitimate reason not to use the right part and that is what the OP was looking for, the right parts.


I myself am NOT recommending that Peter use a DP. I think he should get a quality Eaton or SqD and be done. I am just railing against the Code Purist ideology of "No one can ever violate the Code, ever! Else baby Jesus may explode!":thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey Inphase, Baby Jesus loves you!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> No Savvy ?
> 
> Magnetic Lighting contactors make noise yes ?
> 
> ...



All of the contactors under discussion in this thread are mechanical, none solid state.

I very rarely (as in almost never) see solid state relays used for building lighting.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Why does every installation have to meet the code?


In this case, I think I made it pretty clear why. This isn't some junk off-the-shelf lighting that's being controlled. It's a top notch system that demands top-notch equipment, in my opinion. Yes, I know it's a glorified on-off switch. I want to do this job right, not take the B4T mentality of "I've always done it that way and I'm never going to change"


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

NolaTigaBait said:


> Hey Inphase, Baby Jesus loves you!


:laughing::lol: And I him!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> I am just railing against the Code Purist ideology of "No one can ever violate the Code, ever! Else baby Jesus may explode!":thumbsup:


Of course the code can be broken without things going badly, I don't think anyone honestly believes the ink on a page controls what will happen.

I found a 30 amp receptacle supplied with 10 AWG tapped right off a 400 amp bus, it was in a dry cleaners and it had been that way for years, as far as I can tell it did not cause any problem at all. But that don't make it right or safe to do again. 

But anyway ........ I think Pete is going to do whatever Peter wants. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The following was posted at Holt's by an engineer that seems to know his stuff. http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/90214-Definite-Purpose?p=723163#post723163




Jraef said:


> LOL, the age old DP debate.
> 
> *NEMA = "Find it, Fix it and Forget it!"*
> Overbuilt for the US auto industry to take the worst possible thing a 'Lectrician could throw at it without having to talk to the overpaid engineering staff about the application. Probably more than most people need, but cheaper in the long run if down time costs $1000 / minute and it takes 10 minutes to get an Engineer on the phone.
> ...


Take it for what it is worth, there is no question that DP units work and very little likelihood something bad will happen from using them other than failing an inspection.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> In this case, I think I made it pretty clear why. This isn't some junk off-the-shelf lighting that's being controlled. It's a* top* *notch system* that demands top-notch equipment, in my opinion. Yes, I know it's a glorified on-off switch. I want to do this *job right*, not take *the B4T mentality* of "I've always done it that way and I'm never going to change"


 
Dogging on B4T again


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> Dogging on B4T again


Yes, and? He replied to my thread, I responded back. BBQ showed him the right way, and he was basically like "I don't care, I'm going to keep doing it that way." 



B4T said:


> Am I the only one here who will keep using them now that the information has been made crystal clear..


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> Peter, To keep you in the budget of the electrical, for this job. What's
> the price difference between the two contactors ?


I don't know yet. That's why I asked so I know what kind of equipment to ask for.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> But anyway ........ I think Pete is going to do whatever Peter wants. :thumbsup:


Out of curiosity, what do you suppose that might be? A 30 amp 2-pole toggle switch? :laughing:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Yes, and? He replied to my thread, I responded back. BBQ showed him the right way, and he was basically like "I don't care, I'm going to keep doing it that way."


 

Fair Enough


B4-T, Get with the program !


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


>


F'ing AC guys can't even mount the thing straight


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> F'ing AC guys can't even mount the thing straight


I can't say for certain, but I think those are factory mounted on the compressor rack. It's all one big pre-fabbed skid - compressors, piping and control cabinet. Connect field wiring (power and control circuits) and refrigeration lines and you're done.

BBQ will know for certain. He deals with this stuff on a daily basis.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Peter D said:


> IBBQ will know for certain. He deals with this stuff on a daily basis.


No I mean that replacement black Siemens contactor.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> No I mean that replacement black Siemens contactor.


Doh! :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Nope:no:. But most contactors I use aren't plugged straight into the bus of a panel.


You can still have a heck of a lot of fault current available at the contactor. I can think of plenty of situations the would be a bad place to use DP contactors because of the lack of on the, SCCR.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


>


 Ack! Two words: DIN rail.

Maybe if we dealt in high enough volume, it would be worth it to look into DP stuff, but as is we just use IEC for almost everything.

If it has to be bomb proof then we'll put in NEMA stuff because that seems to hold up to adverse conditions a bit better. But you pay for it.

-John


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Those breakers above the DP contactors.
> 
> 
> But two things.
> ...


Or is that DP 10 amp or whatever right above the panduit the control OCPD?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd be telling an untruth if I said I've never used DP contactors for ...... ugh .... non engineered applications. I did not realize the depth of the problems I might be creating until I joined the MH site a few years back.

Like B4T, I did not think it was worth the extra money. I still have to wonder about that and I do understand and sympathize with his stated position. I have since changed, I do understand that by using those DP contactors, I might save the customer money, but if a problem ever occurred and the c**p hit the fan, some lawyer would take everything I have. It's not worth it.

People smarter than me have said it's a no-no, so I'll just believe them and play by the "rules".

Think about it this way, if you were running up and down the highway at 100 MPH, would you want to do it on tires that had a 70 MPH speed rating? You would probably be fine, but ......... do you want to chance it?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I didn't realize this was an issue till I read through this. I have only wired a small handful of contactors. I wonder if any of them were other than DP. I am sure that the supply house doesn't either in most cases.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Bob, why are phase 1 and 2 reversed on the distriburion block, top right?

~Matt

Sent from my HTC Evo using ET app.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

This really does show there is way more to control work then just running to Graingers and getting some control parts. The average price for us to build a panel is about $1000.00 in parts, just parts, not the plans programming and engineering for stuff like SCCR. 


If I built 2 lighting contactor panels with fusing and control circuits like Peter wants it would probably be about $500.00, maybe a little more or less depending on what else needs to be in there.

And that's without UL listing the whole deal.


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## Techy (Mar 4, 2011)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Bob, why are phase 1 and 2 reversed on the distriburion block, top right?
> 
> ~Matt
> 
> Sent from my HTC Evo using ET app.



It was totally going the wrong way


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Yes, and? He replied to my thread, I responded back. BBQ showed him the right way, and he was basically like "I don't care, I'm going to keep doing it that way."


Yep.. and I will sleep just fine at night.. :thumbsup:

Mr. Homeowner.. I have this relay and I can fix your AC blower unit up in the attic.. but I can't use the same unit in the basement to control the outside lights.. :blink::blink::blink::blink:

Common sense tells me there is something really wrong with that scenario..


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Yep.. and I will sleep just fine at night.. :thumbsup:
> 
> Mr. Homeowner.. I have this relay and I can fix your AC blower unit up in the attic.. but I can't use the same unit in the basement to control the outside lights.. :blink::blink::blink::blink:
> 
> Common sense tells me there is something really wrong with that scenario..




This isn't a "Mr. Homeowner" situation. This is a $19,000 Musco high end sports lighting setup. There's no need to cheap out on a few parts.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> This isn't a "Mr. Homeowner" situation. This is a $19,000 Musco high end sports lighting setup. There's no need to cheap out on a few parts.


I agree.. your job and your design.. you asked a question about a contactor..

My jobs that have Sq. D contactors in them and have never given me any trouble..

The intent of replying to your thread was to share what I know.. you can take it or leave it.. :thumbsup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I'd be telling an untruth if I said I've never used DP contactors for ...... ugh .... non engineered applications. I did not realize the depth of the problems I might be creating until I joined the MH site a few years back.


Same here, we care, we learn, we change.




> I do understand that by using those DP contactors, I might save the customer money, but if a problem ever occurred and the c**p hit the fan, some lawyer would take everything I have. It's not worth it.


Same here. (well take my bosses crap, maybe put people out of work)



> Think about it this way, if you were running up and down the highway at 100 MPH, would you want to do it on tires that had a 70 MPH speed rating? You would probably be fine, but ......... do you want to chance it?


It is just that simple.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> My jobs that have Sq. D contactors in them and have never given me any trouble.


Again ...... no one has said they will not work, they just are not correct.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Is GE stuff (contactors) really that bad? I don't have enough experience to know any better.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> This is a (4) pole contactor.. Square D.. so you call me a hack .. for $70.00.. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Contactor-5KAK5?Pid=search





B4T said:


> I don't think the conductors being controlled are going to mind that the contactor is only recognized and not listed.. who gives a flying ..:no:


After the education I have received on the different types of contactors from this thread, I declare you to be a hack. 

Is it really that difficult to use the correct equipment for the job? :001_huh:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Is GE stuff (contactors) really that bad? I don't have enough experience to know any better.


The newer (like past ten years or so) suck that bad.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Is GE stuff (contactors) really that bad? I don't have enough experience to know any better.


GE stuff is ****


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't have much experience with anything beyond the resi stuff (and even that I don't like) but GE seems to be universally despised.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

So the bottom line is unless I am replacing something part number for part number, it has to be NEMA or IEC rated listed etc?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> So the bottom line is unless I am replacing something part number for part number, it has to be NEMA or IEC rated listed etc?


Bingo...


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Those of you buying the "correct items", do you find that suppliers have these in stock? I am assuming too that the correct ones are marked as such?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> After the education I have received on the different types of contactors from this thread, I declare you to be a hack.
> 
> Is it really that difficult to use the correct equipment for the job? :001_huh:


I declare you are a putz.. and I am an idiot for replying to your thread.. I should know better by now..


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I can see the dissenting point of view too. I broke a contactor in a new heat pump this fall. I really didn't feel like paying the HVAC guy to do it, so, like the other guys, I get out the grainger catalog or went to a parts place online and bought a same brand slightly different part number replacement that fit exactly. Am I wrong in this case?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

nrp3 said:


> Those of you buying the "correct items", do you find that suppliers have these in stock?


We order 90% of our control components both for the stuff we keep stocked and what we need for current projects. Although our supply houses have seemed to have wised up and started carrying more and more of the proper stuff.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have to talk to the controls guy at Independent and see what his take is. He seems to know what he's doing.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

It's sometimes difficult to do the "proper" thing. Those "listed" components cost a bit more, and we electricians don't usually have the credentials to properly test our "assemblies". As far as I know, the 50+ DP contactors I've installed in the past are working fine. I never had to replace any under warranty.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I declare you are a putz..


Pete is trying to do the right thing.

You are saying you will continue to do the wrong thing.

I think it is crystal clear who is the putz.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Pete is trying to do the right thing.
> 
> You are saying you will continue to do the wrong thing.
> 
> I think it is crystal clear who is the putz.



Good for you.. stick it up your ass.. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Aw you're all putzes. :lol:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I hate it when the name calling starts.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I hate it when the name calling starts.


Loosen up Mr Stiff.:jester:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Good for you.. stick it up your ass.. :thumbsup:


What a big baby you are sometimes.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, so when I go to Graybar or the other place that sells Square D in my area, I need to ask for a NEMA lighting contactor, right? Not a DP contactor, but an actual NEMA one, correct?


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Peter D said:


> OK, so when I go to Graybar or the other place that sells Square D in my area, I need to ask for a NEMA lighting contactor, right? Not a DP contactor, but an actual NEMA one, correct?



Good grief man, just buy a 3p contactor and move on.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Peter D said:


> ...I need to ask for a NEMA lighting contactor....


 Yes, at least a NEMA size 0 contactor which is good for 18 amps continuous load.

-John


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

jefft110 said:


> Good grief man, just buy a 3p contactor and move on.


:confused1:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

:laughing::laughing:


NolaTigaBait said:


> Hey Inphase, Baby Jesus loves you!


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*B4t*



B4T said:


> Good for you.. stick it up your ass.. :thumbsup:


 
OK- Question, We have $300.00 left in our bid, to install our 
contactor. 

Whould You install: (For those that have used DP for residentail for years) 


a Definite Purpose $42.00, or the More expensive IEC model $84.00


How many people will install the DP VS IEC, for a residential application ?

*Be Honest* :whistling2:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

dronai said:


> *Be Honest* :whistling2:


IEC, I can get them cheap.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

*interesting*

from 

http://products.schneider-electric....d-starters/definite-purpose-contactors/#tab=0



> Definite purpose contactors are ideal for heating, air conditioning, refrigeration, data processing, and food service equipment. Compact 1 and 2 pole contactors are available along with full size 2, 3, and 4-pole devices.
> They feature quick connect terminals and binder head screws for easy wiring. Box lugs are standard on 40 ampere contactors and larger. An exclusive DIN track mounting option may reduce installation costs. Coils can be changed on the Type DPA contactors above 40A quickly without a tool. Auxiliary contact modules snap on either side of the Type DPA contactors.
> 
> Features and benefits:
> ...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

dronai said:


> OK- Question, We have $300.00 left in our bid, to install our
> contactor.
> 
> Whould You install: (For those that have used DP for residentail for years)
> ...


The $42.00 contactor.. but a smart electrician from here says the $84.00 model.. installs the $42.00 model and keeps his mouth shut..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Peter D said:


> What a big baby you are sometimes.


Funny how your buddy BBQ was totally silent when I was trying to get you reinstated back here again..

He said absolutely nothing and he knows you personally..

Now he pulls a hamstring running to your defense.. very strange dude.. :blink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> from
> 
> http://products.schneider-electric....d-starters/definite-purpose-contactors/#tab=0


The UL file # for those contactors is the same as the one from the 1998 catalog harry posted. Someone needs to update that.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> The UL file # for those contactors is the same as the one from the 1998 catalog harry posted. Someone needs to update that.


Said the man who posted schematics on a thread that were dated 1991.. :laughing:

That was for a student who was looking for study material.. I think the drawings were done with a #2 pencil.. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> Said the man who posted schematics on a thread that were dated 1991.. :laughing:
> 
> That was for a student who was looking for study material.. I think the drawings were done with a #2 pencil.. :laughing:


But I know those haven't changed since I can get the same thing from my SQD rep in book form. Basic motor control don't change.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> But I know those haven't changed since I can get the same thing from my SQD rep in book form. Basic motor control don't change.


Could they at least canned the pencil and used CAD.. even an old drawing looks better when the lines are straight..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> Could they at least canned the pencil and used CAD.. even an old drawing looks better when the lines are straight..


I got a set of drawings yesterday that looked like that. The pencil lives on man.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I got a set of drawings yesterday that looked like that. The pencil lives on man.


It is only legit when it is used on a brown paper bag.. :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> It is only legit when it is used on a brown paper bag.. :laughing:


Or drawings for a mass produce machine apparently. 


Although... when I field build starters or stuff like that I whip up a drawing with pen on engineering paper and tape it in the panel with packing tape.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Or drawings for a mass produce machine apparently.
> 
> 
> Although... when I field build starters or stuff like that I whip up a drawing with pen on engineering paper and tape it in the panel with packing tape.


You can do that.. the guys wearing pocket protectors have to answer to a higher standard.. IMO


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> You can do that.. the guys wearing pocket protectors have to answer to a higher standard.. IMO


It's your fault for having standards :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> It's your fault for having standards :laughing:


We will see how that plays out in the morning.. :whistling2::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dronai said:


> OK- Question, We have $300.00 left in our bid, to install our
> contactor.
> 
> Whould You install: (For those that have used DP for residentail for years)
> ...


Honestly a code compliant one.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Funny how your buddy BBQ was totally silent when I was trying to get you reinstated back here again..
> 
> He said absolutely nothing and he knows you personally..


Actually I did have things to say, I said things like 'It is none of your business' 'Stop trying to run things' etc. :laughing:

I am betting Pete was reading back then even when he was officially banned. :yes:




> Now he pulls a hamstring running to your defense.. very strange dude.. :blink:


If you have not noticed I pick my 'sides' based on the issue, not the person.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> very strange dude.. :blink:












just sayin' :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> OK, so when I go to Graybar or the other place that sells Square D in my area, I need to ask for a NEMA lighting contactor, right? Not a DP contactor, but an actual NEMA one, correct?


NEMA great, the best IMO, but IEC is code compliant, less expensive and takes up much less space. So it is a design decision to be made, I use some IEC stuff, nothing is more compact.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> The UL file # for those contactors is the same as the one from the 1998 catalog harry posted. Someone needs to update that.


If I understand you correctly, you are saying that SQD has information on their website that is incorrect? You are saying that their claim that these DP contactors are UL listed is wrong?

Just asking before I call them on Monday.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are saying that SQD has information on their website that is incorrect? You are saying that their claim that these DP contactors are UL listed is wrong?
> 
> Just asking before I call them on Monday.


Listed or not, I do not know. But as far as I do know unless you can find a fault current rating they will not pass 110.10.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are saying that SQD has information on their website that is incorrect? You are saying that their claim that these DP contactors are UL listed is wrong?
> 
> Just asking before I call them on Monday.


Your post got me to do some digging, it appears in 2011 they received a new listing, I still can't find an SCCR rating though, so like BBQ said you'll still hit 110.10.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

What does this mean?

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073761315&sequence=1



> Definite purpose contactors. Class 8910, Type DPA, followed by 122 or 123 followed by V, followed by two-digit number, may be followed by S, followed by a single or two-digit number, with Series A, may be followed by form designation X01-X40.


It's down about 1/3 of the way on the posted page.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073761315&sequence=1
> 
> ...


Look at the top of the page at the category description.



> Motor Controllers, Magnetic - Component



Here is what that category applies to.





> The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities *and are intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field.* THE FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UNDERWRITERS LABORATORIES INC.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> What does this mean?


That's all of SQD's part number stuff and junk like coil voltage and what not.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> That's all of SQD's part number stuff and junk like coil voltage and what not.



Harry? :blink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Look at the top of the page at the category description.


Where'd you find that? Under the general info link?

Edit: found it


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Harry? :blink:


Did I use a butt ton of smileys? :laughing::laughing:


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, so we are backing off of the "listing" issue with the SQD DP contactors and are saying now that there is no SCCR rating, so we can't use them without an "assembly" listing (for our assembly, which of course none of us will get), right?

Help me better understand please, what is the worst case scenario of using these DP contactors? What fault causes a problem, and what could the outcome of that fault be?

Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to make sure I have a good understanding of the issues. I think I do, but I'm not really sure. The main reason I quit using them is the litigious society we live in.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Did I use a butt ton of smileys? :laughing::laughing:


LOL, no.

But I no comprendo that post.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Help me better understand please, what is the worst case scenario of using these DP contactors? What fault causes a problem, and what could the outcome of that fault be?


You use them on a system with a high available fault current, maybe a lighting system feed right off a bucket in some service gear, it closes into a fault and :nuke:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> LOL, no.
> 
> But I no comprendo that post.


See edit, I forgot the quote.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK, so we are backing off of the "listing" issue with the SQD DP contactors and are saying now that there is no SCCR rating, so we can't use them without an "assembly" listing (for our assembly, which of course none of us will get), right?
> 
> Help me better understand please, what is the worst case scenario of using these DP contactors? What fault causes a problem, and what could the outcome of that fault be?
> 
> Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to make sure I have a good understanding of the issues. I think I do, but I'm not really sure. The main reason I quit using them is the litigious society we live in.


I am not an expert, I only pretend to be one on internet forums. :laughing:

But it is my understanding that if a contactor closes into a bolted fault, and the available fault current exceeds the ability of the contactor to handle it the contactor may turn into a small grenade. 

No different than using (or not using) a properly rated breaker.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Look at the top of the page at the category description.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that about sums it up pretty good.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I am not an expert, I only pretend to be one on internet forums. :laughing:


I pretend to be an expert in real life :laughing:


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, so chances are in most homes and light commercial buildings, the fault current by the time we get to this contactor is pretty low (probably less than 5K). 

The problem is we don't know the SCCR rating of this device, and as "qualified" electricians, we should know that we don't know, even though we understand that the chances are pretty good that it won't be a problem. Since we have to go up against $500/hour lawyers to answer why we installed a component that is not listed for "direct separate installation in the field", it's better that we just don't do it. It's just not worth the liability, plus it makes us look either incompetent (we didn't know better) or reckless (in that we just don't care).

Besides, it really sucks to get an inspection rejection because the inspector knows and understands that you can't use this without additional listing.

Is this about correct?


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Is this about correct?


Yeah. 






The forum software made me type this line


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> OK, so chances are in most homes and light commercial buildings, the fault current by the time we get to this contactor is pretty low (probably less than 5K).


I don't disagree. 



> The problem is we don't know the SCCR rating of this device, and as "qualified" electricians, we should know that we don't know, even though we understand that the chances are pretty good that it won't be a problem.


I agree.



> Since we have to go up against $500/hour lawyers to answer why we installed a component that is not listed for "direct separate installation in the field", it's better that we just don't do it. It's just not worth the liability, plus it makes us look either incompetent (we didn't know better) or reckless (in that we just don't care).


I agree.

In my case my actions reflect on a large company and I take that responsibility seriously. If I was to screw up bad enough it could put people out of work. 



> Besides, it really sucks to get an inspection rejection because the inspector knows and understands that you can't use this without additional listing.


I agree.

Besides, IEC stuff is just as compact and not that expensive.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Yeah.


Lazy person answer.



BBQ said:


> I don't disagree.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...


Motivated person answer :laughing:


----------



## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

*Differentiating between NEMA- and IEC-style products*

Mar 1, 1996 12:00 PM, Bodenhamer, Greg; Fowler, Tom 




1 Comment http://www.electriciantalk.com/#relatedarticleShareThis9

How do NEMA- and IEC-style electromechanical motor control products differ?
In today's business environment, flexibility is an asset. If you're able to apply either IEC- or NEMA-style products, you have the flexibility to adapt to local traditions and product supply anywhere in the world. This allows you to take the best advantage of local availability and expertise, which can be an important competitive edge in a global economy. Before applying this flexibility, however, you need to know the differences between NEMA and IEC designs.
Differing philosophies
The NEMA philosophy emphasizes more robust designs for broader applicability. Ease of selection and breadth of application are two of the fundamental mainstays within its design philosophy.
Governing the design of NEMA motor control products is the NEMA Industrial Control Standard (ICS-2). This formal document contains all of the information about the design of electromechanical NEMA-style motor control.
The IEC philosophy, on the other hand, is application and performance. In selecting IEC devices, you need a more sophisticated level of knowledge about the application than is necessary when selecting a NEMA general-purpose device. For example, you need to know motor load, duty cycle, and full load current (FLC) when selecting an IEC contactor.
This requirement, which may be a drawback in some segments, is a significant advantage in Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) segments. For example, an equivalent hp-rated IEC device tends to be substantially smaller than its NEMA counterpart; this represents a significant advantage for most OEM designers. Also, IEC products tend to be less expensive.
NEMA features and benefits
Ease of selection is the fundamental design advantage of a NEMA-style starter. To effectively select a NEMA-style product, you only need to know the horsepower and voltage.
Serviceability is another key in the NEMA market. Most NEMA products are serviceable and provide front access to internal parts. Unless a total device replacement is necessary, contacts and coils of all sizes can be repaired usually without removing the device from the panel.
Reserve capacity is a consideration in the ease of selection of NEMA products. They are designed to be very robust and broadly applicable. They are "general-purpose," as opposed to being more specific and/or application intensive.
NEMA-style devices have interchangeable heater elements. In fact, a range of thermal units are available for the overload. This characteristic makes a NEMA product attractive on many construction jobs, where the ultimate motor schedule or the actual motor nameplate is not known until close to the start-up date.
The motor control center (MCC) or Enclosed Package Solution is a NEMA tradition. Most NEMA products are sold as starters, in either open-style or various enclosed versions.
IEC features and benefits
The large number of IEC contactor sizes allows you to more closely match the contactor to the load or application. Unlike NEMA, where the available sizes are standard across the industry, the number of different contactor size ratings varies by manufacturer.
Generally, an IEC starter is about half the size of a comparable NEMA starter. Above 100A (NEMA Size 3), however, the physical differences between NEMA and IEC are negligible.
IEC products are more modular in nature; they can snap onto a 35-mm, or in larger sizes, a 75-mm DIN rail. This eliminates the need to drill holes and mount each component individually. Thus, putting them into a panel is relatively easy.
Unlike NEMA starters, which typically are sold fully assembled, IEC starters typically are sold as components (a contactor, an auxiliary block, an overload relay block) so that you can make your own assembly. You simply select the accessories needed for the application and snap them together, without the use of tools.
Also unlike NEMA starters, IEC-style thermal overload relays typically have fixed thermal elements, with an adjustment range that may require replacing the complete overload relay when significant motor FLC changes due to application requirements


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mrmike said:


> *Differentiating between NEMA- and IEC-style products*


Thanks mrmike. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Manufacturers have come a long way since 96' though.

There are quite a few manufactures that are making IEC gear that is fully serviceable like NEMA stuff. 

And very few manufactures do IEC starters with fixed OL's, Eaton still makes a line like that but pretty much every other IEC starter has electronic OL's.

Just a few years ago you could find posts by me on forums really dishing on IEC, now I'm pretty much sold.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Just a few years ago you could find posts by me on forums really dishing on IEC, now I'm pretty much sold.


Trader!!!! :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> There are quite a few manufactures that are making IEC gear that is fully serviceable like NEMA stuff.


Contacts? 

I have yet to see IEC contacts fail without smoking / melting the plastic to the point I replace the whole thing.

Coils? 

Yeah we sometimes replace coils but about 1/2 the time we find the overheated coil melts and distorts the contactor plastic so we replace the whole thing. 



> And very few manufactures do IEC starters with fixed OL's,


Not fixed but pretty narrow ranges. (At least with the small sizes)



> Just a few years ago you could find posts by me on forums really dishing on IEC, now I'm pretty much sold.


Yeah they do have some good features even with my complaints above.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

B4T said:


> Funny how your buddy BBQ was totally silent when I was trying to get you reinstated back here again..
> 
> He said absolutely nothing and he knows you personally..
> 
> Now he pulls a hamstring running to your defense.. very strange dude.. :blink:



This issue has nothing to do with defending me personally. It has to do with choosing the right equipment and doing a code compliant job. You don't seem to be able to understand that. :wacko:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

dronai said:


> OK- Question, We have $300.00 left in our bid, to install our
> contactor.
> 
> Whould You install: (For those that have used DP for residentail for years)
> ...


Before I knew better, I probably would have walked into Graybar, Grainger, etc and ask for a "contactor" and installed whatever they gave me. Now that I know better, I would choose the right equipment for the job. Yes, even in residential. Is $42 difference going to break the bank? :no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Is $42 difference going to break the bank? :no:


And even if it had not been included in the bid this time you would not forget next time.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Contacts?
> 
> I have yet to see IEC contacts fail without smoking / melting the plastic to the point I replace the whole thing.
> 
> ...


Yeah once you get into the nicer models they do a lot better, serviceable parts and toughness wise. Benshaw is probably the nicest stuff I use, some of their stuff is IEC and NEMA rated. 

The little cheap stuff from Fuji, IDEC, K&M, AB, lovotro, Eaton and a few others is still use and trash but for the price one really can't complain. I do wish they would make wider range OL's, it would make stock easier. Some of the ranges Fuji has aren't bad.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mostly I run into ABB and AB


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Mostly I run into ABB


That's who I forgot. I run into lots of ASCO combo starters with ABB starters in them.

Edit: I forgot Weg too, most of their stuff is on par with Eaton and K&M


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> And even if it had not been included in the bid this time you would not forget next time.


Yup. :thumbsup:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Interesting info here. I'll have to see if my supply houses even stock anything else but DP ? 

In BBQ's pictures, there's no doubt, you would want to match, or use an equivalent product. 

In my region, the supply houses are catering to residential, and commercial jobs.

There are some supply houses that sell to the industrial market, that no doubt, would stock it. But those are closer to LA, where more industry is located.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

........



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jlarson*
> _Yeah._


Logical, to the point person answer.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BBQ*
> _I don't disagree. _
> 
> ...


Windbag answer :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

You're gonna be off that xmas list for many years to come at this rate :laughing:


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