# 10-20-10 Solve this Service Call



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call:
> 
> Receptacles at front & rear decks of a SFD function intermittently. Neither are GFCI receps, just standard ones.
> 
> Go!




They aren't gfi receps or they are not FED from a gfi?


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## Power21 (Jan 26, 2010)

Somehow fed from the load side of a photo-electric eye or a exterior lighting timer


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> They aren't gfi receps or they are not FED from a gfi?



Standard receps, not GFCIs. House is 3 years old.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call:
> 
> Receptacles at front & rear decks of a SFD function intermittently. Neither are GFCI receps, just standard ones.
> 
> Go!


1. the connection from the wire to the breaker is not well made; the screw is loose

2. The circuit is overloaded and the legs of the breaker are burnt and don´t make contact.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> 1. the connection from the wire to the breaker is not well made; the screw is loose
> 
> 2. The circuit is overloaded and the leds of the breaker are burnt and don´t make contact.



Checked panel. All breakers in good order.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Standard receps, not GFCIs. House is 3 years old.


Some one tied them into a switch and HO keeps flipping it on and off trying to figure out what it goes to....had that happen before.

How does a house 3 years old not have GFI protection on outdoor receps?:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> .............How does a house 3 years old not have GFI protection on outdoor receps?:blink:


Never said they didn't. I just said the receps outside are not GFCIs.:whistling2:


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Checked panel. All breakers in good order.


than mabey a cannection is loose in a junction box


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Never said they didn't. I just said the receps outside are not GFCIs.:whistling2:


well then the GFI protection is protecting; duh; the circuit


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> than mabey a cannection is loose in a junction box



That was my first guess. Recep at front door is a dead-end (only one 14-2). Recep on back deck has two 14-2s. No power at either.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> well then the protection is protecting; duh; the circuit



OK..... where's the GFCI? :001_huh:


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK..... where's the GFCI? :001_huh:


in the yard; in the water:laughing:

Idon´t know I wasn´t with you at your service call.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

give us more clues!!!
we already know the problem we just don´t know where it is.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> in the yard; in the water:laughing:


 Well, it wasn't in a PVC box under just grass in the back yard......



Josue said:


> Idon´t know I wasn´t with you at your service call.


Good thing, too. I would have ended up with a free lunch if you were with me.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> give us more clues!!!
> we already know the problem we just don´t know where it is.



So............. how do you find the GFCI that protects it? 

THINK, man! THINK!


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, it wasn't in a PVC box under *just* grass in the back yard......
> 
> 
> 
> Good thing, too. I would have ended up with a free lunch if you were with me.


:laughing:

then it was under dirt too!!


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So............. how do you find the GFCI that protects it?
> 
> THINK, man! THINK!


with fish tape???

you ask the HOMEOWNER where is the GFCI that protects the circuit; if the HO is not a onetrick pony of course.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> :laughing:
> 
> then it was under dirt too!!



No, no dirt. B4T says grass can grow without dirt. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> with fish tape???



OK, learn me something.:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, so far I've found out this much of the circuit:


[recep]=====14/2====[recep]====14/2=====


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

480sparky said:


> OK, so far I've found out this much of the circuit:
> 
> 
> [recep]=====14/2====[recep]====14/2=====


well, then the GFCI was in the 14/2
right!!!!???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> well, then the GFCI was in the 14/2
> right!!!!???



Sadly, no.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

mabey there was a wrong connection in the box and those receptacles were connected to gfci for accident????


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

It must be hidden somewhere...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> It must be hidden somewhere...



OK, but _find_ it.


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

behind a toilet?:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> behind a toilet?:laughing:


Uh, lemme think about that for a second.

Nope.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Find out what circuit feeds them and shut it off to see what else shuts off. Start there and see what area it seems to be in


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Find out what circuit feeds them and shut it off to see what else shuts off. Start there and see what area it seems to be in



Panel isn't labeled well enough to try that (naturally!).

I could have tried every sp breaker in the panel and still have no idea which circuit fed those receps.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

It's off or on right now? Try under the deck, could be a recep for landscape lights.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Panel isn't labeled well enough to try that (naturally!).
> 
> I could have tried every sp breaker in the panel and still have no idea which circuit fed those receps.


Let me guess it came out from under the house? Attic? Under the kitchen sink?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> It's off or on right now? Try under the deck, could be a recep for landscape lights.


It's off.

I guess what I'm asking is : Where's the GFCI that protects these two receps? Where could it be? How do you find it?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Go flip every switch in the house on and see what happens.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Let me guess it came out from under the house? Attic? Under the kitchen sink?



Well, you can guess all day. But the HO is watching. You need to FIND IT, not stand around scratching your head.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

The GFI could be anywhere ya gotta look for it. Garage is a typical offender, I would start wherever the panel is and work my way out from there. It's gotta be somewhere.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> They aren't gfi receps or they are not FED from a gfi?



This is where I asked if they were FED from a gfi....






480sparky said:


> Standard receps, not GFCIs. House is 3 years old.



This is where you should of said they were fed from a gfi





480sparky said:


> Never said they didn't. I just said the receps outside are not GFCIs.:whistling2:




You didn't say they were either...and I asked.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> The GFI could be anywhere ya gotta look for it. Garage is a typical offender, I would start wherever the panel is and work my way out from there. It's gotta be somewhere.



Well, you're thinking right. Where would the GFCI be in a 3-year-old house?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Well, you can guess all day. But the HO is watching. You need to FIND IT, not stand around scratching your head.


Have the homeowner help look then. Or get a toy lightsaber and wrap it in electrical tape and start waving it around on the walls as you look. Make some buzzing noises while you do it though or it won't be very believable.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, you can guess all day. But the HO is watching. You need to FIND IT, not stand around scratching your head.



I usually go to the van and break out the tracer....:blink:.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, you're thinking right. Where would the GFCI be in a 3-year-old house?



Typically the garage and outside receps here are put on the same circuit.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> This is where I asked if they were FED from a gfi....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sigh .



480sparky said:


> Standard receps, not GFCIs. House is 3 years old.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Well, you're thinking right. Where would the GFCI be in a 3-year-old house?


I'm not clear on if you have fixed this or not. It could be anywhere. Literally. I've put them in bedrooms before to feed the outside receps because the siding goons talked the homeowner into matching siding boxes and all that would fit was a standard receptacle.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I usually go to the van and break out the tracer....:blink:.


Ding! Ding! Ding!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> I'm not clear on if you have fixed this or not. .........



It's fixed.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

So what are we solving then? You want us to just guess places until someone hits it?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding!



So where did the tracer take you?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> So where did the tracer take you?



Duplex in basement bedroom. One 14/2 in that box.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> It's off.
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is : Where's the GFCI that protects these two receps? Where could it be? How do you find it?


 

Toner.......


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## Josue (Apr 25, 2010)

IMO next time give us something that makes us think not guess. 
anyway I had fun
thanks!!!!

It´s entertaining when you hear about other electricians who go through the same problems as you do.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Basement finished after rest of house?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Duplex in basement bedroom. One 14/2 in that box.




:blink:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Toner.......



Just what I used. Hooked it up at the rear recep (the one with two 14/2s). Got a strong signal in the duplex in the basement downstairs, and at the recep at the front door. I could even follow the tone across the ceiling of the kitchen, dining room and down the wall at the front door.

So, now I've got this:

[recep]===14/2===[recep]===14/2===[recep]


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Josue said:


> IMO next time give us something that makes us think not guess.
> anyway I had fun
> thanks!!!!
> 
> It´s entertaining when you hear about other electricians who go through the same problems as you do.



Sorry to hear you can't think.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Duplex in basement bedroom. One 14/2 in that box.


so are the outdoor recp on when the basment lights are on?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> so are the outdoor recp on when the basment lights are on?



No, I had them on to get to the duplex downstairs to find & check it.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> No, I had them on to get to the duplex downstairs to find & check it.


were they live at any time before you fixed the problem?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> were they live at any time before you fixed the problem?



The HO claims they do. Itermittently. Sometimes they would work, then they would go off for 2-3 weeks. Then come back on.

He said he was using the rear recep a month ago for a leaf blower, and it just quit.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok now you say outdoor receptale but sans GFCI at the moment so you traced it basement bedroom now let say if this circuit is seved from landury room which I know they will have the RCD there.

In few case some dolts will tied into sump pump circuit.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Ok now you say outdoor receptale but sans GFCI at the moment so you traced it basement bedroom now let say if this circuit is seved from landury room which I know they will have the RCD there.
> 
> In few case some dolts will tied into sump pump circuit.
> 
> ...


GFCIs (RCDs) are not required in laundry rooms here.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

Use the toner to figure out which circuit it is?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I am guessing now due I have to backtrack a little and I know 480 mention 2.5mm²'s { 14 awg } so I am more inclined that home have AFCI if so due 3 year agewise so I am sure that will affected otherwise end up tied up to the genral lighting circuit.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> Use the toner to figure out which circuit it is?



I tried, but no tone at the panel. Only at the three receps.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> I am guessing now due I have to backtrack a little and I know 480 mention 2.5mm²'s { 14 awg } so I am more inclined that home have AFCI if so due 3 year agewise so I am sure that will affected otherwise end up tied up to the genral lighting circuit.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Built under 2005 NEC, so only two AFCIs in panel.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Built under 2005 NEC, so only two AFCIs in panel.


Okie we are getting somewhere now .,,,

did this room formally was unfinshed room right?

If so may have a open connection at one of the recetple

Merci.
Marc


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

So there's no tone branching off along the path that you can follow between the three recepts?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Okie we are getting somewhere now .,,,
> 
> did this room formally was unfinshed room right?
> 
> ...


The duplex downstairs in the bedroom was in a cut-in box, and the NM was fed through 1/2" EMT. This led me to think the room was finished after the rest of the house. The room also had a drop ceiling, with open splices feeding the cheesy fluorescent lights. So obviously I'm thinking I'm dealing with a hack install.

But even if the basement was not originally finished, the front & rear receps would have been required to obtain a CO.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> So there's no tone branching off along the path that you can follow between the three recepts?


No, Tone goes from basement duplex, to duplex at back of deck, across kitchen & dr ceiling to front duplex.


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## crazyboy (Nov 8, 2008)

480sparky said:


> The duplex downstairs in the bedroom was in a cut-in box, and the NM was fed through 1/2" EMT. This led me to think the room was finished after the rest of the house. The room also had a drop ceiling, with open splices feeding the cheesy fluorescent lights. So obviously I'm thinking I'm dealing with a hack install.
> 
> But even if the basement was not originally finished, the front & rear receps would have been required to obtain a CO.


Drop ceiling, can you visually follow that piece of wire until it disappears?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The HO claims they do. Itermittently. Sometimes they would work, then they would go off for 2-3 weeks. Then come back on.
> 
> He said he was using the rear recep a month ago for a leaf blower, and it just quit.


Are there GFCI Breakers in the panel?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Are there GFCI Breakers in the panel?



Two AFCIs. The rest were normal breakers.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> The duplex downstairs in the bedroom was in a cut-in box, and the NM was fed through 1/2" EMT. This led me to think the room was finished after the rest of the house. The room also had a drop ceiling, with open splices feeding the cheesy fluorescent lights. So obviously I'm thinking I'm dealing with a hack install.
> 
> But even if the basement was not originally finished, the front & rear receps would have been required to obtain a CO.


Hackwork is good way to eff up a nice home but it just don't make sense why use the EMT unless it have furring strip on that wall.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

crazyboy said:


> Drop ceiling, can you visually follow that piece of wire until it disappears?



I could see about 3" of the NM that fed the basement recep between the top plate of the wall and where it disappeared behind a floor joist.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Hackwork is good way to eff up a nice home but it just don't make sense why use the EMT unless it have furring strip on that wall.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


The EMT was just a sleeve. I poked a hole in the drywall above the drop ceiling and could see the EMT end there. This makes me think the basement was finished after the rest of the house, and most likely without a permit.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Two AFCIs. The rest were normal breakers.


and there all on?


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

he fed the outside receptacles off of a kitchen counter or bath gfci circuit


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> and there all on?


Yes. I took a 100w lamp and a pigtail and tested every breaker to ground with it.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> he fed the outside receptacles off of a kitchen counter or bath gfci circuit


No I don't think so due 480 did not mention bathroom or kitchen area which we know it is off limit anyway.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> he fed the outside receptacles off of a kitchen counter or bath gfci circuit


That was a thought, but I couldn't get any tone at any of them. I tried the entire basement trying to find a tone, as well as the garage. I looked all around the outside of the house, and didn't find any tone.

At this point, I tell the HO that I cannot find what is feeding power to the receps, and ask again if they had worked. He said he was using a leaf blower from the rear deck and it worked for about 5 minutes.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> No I don't think so due 480 did not mention bathroom or kitchen area which we know it is off limit anyway.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



Well, I didn't consider it because the house is only 3 years old, but I did try checking for tone, but nothing.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

ive seen outside receptacles fed from the bathroom gfci before. it taken a couple minutes to find it. it was obviously done illegally


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> That was a thought, but I couldn't get any tone at any of them. I tried the entire basement trying to find a tone, as well as the garage. I looked all around the outside of the house, and didn't find any tone.
> 
> At this point, I tell the HO that I cannot find what is feeding power to the receps, and ask again if they had worked. He said he was using a leaf blower from the rear deck and it worked for about 5 minutes.


Did the leef blower run out of gas:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Did the leef blower run out of gas:laughing:


No, the electric leaf blower quit working because the recep was dead. Again.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> ive seen outside receptacles fed from the bathroom gfci before. it taken a couple minutes to find it. it was obviously done illegally


Again, with a toner on the wire, there was no tone in the bathrooms.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Blew a neutral open. at a staple in the wall.
Or never was fed.

Attic?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> Blew a neutral open. at a staple in the wall.
> Or never was fed.
> 
> Attic?


If an open neutral, I should at least have power between hot & ground, but I don't.

'Never fed' was verified that it was. At least twice.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

every thing has 2 ends.
you have at least 3.

buried box. go get a 3 pound'r and start looking.:thumbup::whistling2:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I just hope that was not one of the AMP or TYCO tap connectors if that the case someone will have heckva a time to expain why to use that.

Merci.
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

By the way 480 did you ring out the N-G and come out good ?

Merci.
Marc


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

if leland isnt right with the buried splice i have no idea what the problem is


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> every thing has 2 ends.
> you have at least 3.
> 
> buried box. go get a 3 pound'r and start looking.:thumbup::whistling2:



I have 4 ends, 2 runs of NM.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> By the way 480 did you ring out the N-G and come out good ?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



No continuity between N & G.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> if leland isnt right with the buried splice i have no idea what the problem is


Just hold on a min due I know 480 mention crappy stuff in supened ceiling so it may be on something even poor connected devices can do that.

Merci.
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No continuity between N & G.


 
Now this is getting instering .,,

Ya following my pattern what I did in France with tonnes of hidden boxes ?

Merci.
Marc


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Just hold on a min due I know 480 mention crappy stuff in supened ceiling so it may be on something even poor connected devices can do that.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



C'mon Frenchlectrician. U know I'm right.:jester:
Buried splice.
multiple bad connections.
No ground,sometimes hot opens sometimes neut. some times both.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Just hold on a min due I know 480 mention crappy stuff in supened ceiling so it may be on something even poor connected devices can do that.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



That's what I was looking for all along. All the devices were back-stabbed, so I went in looking for a bad back-stab.

But the lack of continuity between N & G, along with no power, means both the neutral and hot would have to be open somewhere.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

That mean it have more than one item causing the whole issue here.

But I am tempting to run the megger and see where that open splice show up.

Merci.
Marc


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That's what I was looking for all along. All the devices were back-stabbed, so I went in looking for a bad back-stab.
> 
> But the lack of continuity between N & G, along with no power, means both the neutral and hot would have to be open somewhere.



Risky, but did you try a back feed?
Not the best option, but always one just the same.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> That mean it have more than one item causing the whole issue here.
> 
> But I am tempting to run the megger and see where that open splice show up.
> 
> ...



OK, how do you pinpoint an open with a megger? :001_huh:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

leland said:


> C'mon Frenchlectrician. U know I'm right.:jester:
> Buried splice.
> multiple bad connections.
> No ground,sometimes hot opens sometimes neut. some times both.


even all three items at once that will increase sour plucker factor pretty high.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> Risky, but did you try a back feed?
> Not the best option, but always one just the same.


I thought about that... just refeed the circuit. It would have been easy to do. But without knowing what circuit originally fed it, it's a 50/50 chance for a line-to-line short if the original feed suddenly starts working again. And even if I get it on the right leg of the service, I'm still creating a parallel path.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> even all three items at once that will increase sour plucker factor pretty high.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



Never under estimate!!!! :no::no::whistling2:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> OK, how do you pinpoint an open with a megger? :001_huh:


Set the megger in AC mode I know most run in DC mode and use the volt tick stick few case the toner reciver will pick up boosted up voltage and where it stop that where the open splice is.

Simauir what you try to find the underground splices.

Merci.
Marc


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> That's what I was looking for all along. All the devices were back-stabbed, so I went in looking for a bad back-stab.
> 
> But the lack of continuity between N & G, along with no power, means both the neutral and hot would have to be open somewhere.



Maybe there on a single pole switch for christmas lights.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I thought about that... just refeed the circuit. It would have been easy to do. But without knowing what circuit originally fed it, it's a 50/50 chance for a line-to-line short if the original feed suddenly starts working again. And even if I get it on the right leg of the service, I'm still creating a parallel path.



I ment temp.
Just to get a feel for a direction of the ckt.
I would never recommend or condone feeding back for good.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

leland said:


> I ment temp.
> Just to get a feel for a direction of the ckt.
> I would never recommend or condone feeding back for good.



I think all that would do is confirm the wiring I already had discovered.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Maybe there on a single pole switch for christmas lights.



OK, time for the other shoe to drop. After conversing with the HO about not seeing where they receps were fed from, he tells me there's a switch in the dining room that turns on the front recep. 

BUT: Only the front recep, NOT the back one.

So I take the switch out, and............... no power there.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Was any receptale that was directally above the basement bedroom and some case you can tell with the cut in box there as well.

Merci,
Marc


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i love bad backstab service calls. they are always interesting


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> OK, time for the other shoe to drop. After conversing with the HO about not seeing where they receps were fed from, he tells me there's a switch in the dining room that turns on the front recep.
> 
> BUT: Only the front recep, NOT the back one.
> 
> So I take the switch out, and............... no power there.


Was this wall is the same area where you found the cable run thru the floor joinst ?

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Was any receptale that was directally above the basement bedroom and some case you can tell with the cut in box there as well.
> 
> Merci,
> Marc



Basement recep was fed by a 1/2" EMT sleeve.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Was this wall is the same area where you found the cable run thru the floor joinst ?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



No, the floor joist was under the rear deck recep. The switch was in the front of the house.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> i love bad backstab service calls. they are always interesting


And profitable as well!


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

Sounds like a timer for say a heat lamp in the bath.
or its off a thermostat for base boards


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

was the bad backstabbed device located behind a 300 pound china cabinet?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No, the floor joist was under the rear deck recep. The switch was in the front of the house.


 now that getting more instering is that switch is set up feed thru or switch loop format ?

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricalperson said:


> was the bad backstabbed device located behind a 300 pound china cabinet?



No, darn it. I could have charged another 2 hours for that.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> now that getting more instering is that switch is set up feed thru or switch loop format ?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



Got it.
Series loop and a bad light bulb.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> now that getting more instering is that switch is set up feed thru or switch loop format ?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



Two 14s. Whites spliced together, grounds spliced together, blacks to switch.


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## stackappartment (Apr 4, 2010)

single device or multiple devices in dinning room box


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

So for the quick recap the rear receptale run to the switch box then to the front receptale now which that mean I have to backtrack to the back receptale and I know you did tone it out and come out good.

And this back receptle tied to the basement bedroom receptle so therefore there is a feed that got broken near that spot.

Merci.
Marc


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

Someone tried to wire a motion detector to the front light?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> So for the quick recap the rear receptale run to the switch box then to the front receptale now which that mean I have to backtrack to the back receptale and I know you did tone it out and come out good.
> 
> And this back receptle tied to the basement bedroom receptle so therefore there is a feed that got broken near that spot.
> 
> ...


At this point, I have:

[recep]===14/2===[switch]===14/2===[recep]===14/2===[recep]


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## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

In the basement is a buried sub panel that has a gfi breaker in it that is tripped.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BEAMEUP said:


> In the basement is a buried sub panel that has a gfi breaker in it that is tripped.


Not that I found.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> At this point, I have:
> 
> [recep]===14/2===[switch]===14/2===[recep]===14/2===[recep]


 
Ok let say the first recep is front and next is switch then back recep then to basement recep that is correct Oui ??

If so there just two cables in the rear receptale Oui ??

I am leaning more to the rear receptale area because you allready ran the toner between the front and back and came out good.

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Ok let say the first recep is front and next is switch then back recep then to basement recep that is correct Oui ??
> 
> If so there just two cables in the rear receptale Oui ??
> 
> ...


Left to right is front, switch in DR, rear then basement receps.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Gotcha .,

Did the homeowner did do anything on that wall like add a nail or screw something like that ? in either in back area or in basement bedroom ?

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Gotcha .,
> 
> Did the homeowner did do anything on that wall like add a nail or screw something like that ? in either in back area or in basement bedroom ?
> 
> ...


No, but he told me the switch was for the front recep. But there was no power to it, either. The other switch in the box had power, so I temped it up and got the plug-in tester to show "Open Neutral" on all 3 receps.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Did you open the panel up and find then that the black was N and the hot was the white? and the black was loose on the N-Bar?


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

You keep mentioning that there is no power, did you test with a inductance tester? or with a regular meter? A VOM can be fooled by a no ground, neutral situation.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Why do I keep getting the feeling that these outlets are over 6' high and that is why they are not gfi? Is there some kind of T-stat..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Did you open the panel up and find then that the black was N and the hot was the white? and the black was loose on the N-Bar?



Correct colors were used.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> You keep mentioning that there is no power, did you test with a inductance tester? or with a regular meter? A VOM can be fooled by a no ground, neutral situation.



Mostly, I used a 3-light plug-in tester. But I did hook up a 100w lamp in a pigtail just to double-check it. I also have a Fluke pen tester that I trust pretty well.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnR said:


> Why do I keep getting the feeling that these outlets are over 6' high and that is why they are not gfi? Is there some kind of T-stat..


I wish, but they were up only about 6". Makes being old no freakin' fun.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I wish, but they were up only about 6". Makes being old no freakin' fun.


On the deck or other location??

6 inch from floor that will give me a cramp if not carefull and not too crazy to work upside down like that.

Merci,
Marc


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## stackappartment (Apr 4, 2010)

hooked into a temp controlled exhaust fan in attic or basement or maybe a motor with a auto reset like for radon.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Dang., it click in my mind did this house have attached garage or not?

Merci.
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dang., it click in my mind did this house have attached garage or not?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc



Not that you mentioned. But it's attached.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So............. how do you find the GFCI that protects it?
> 
> THINK, man! THINK!


I would knock the N to G and then go around and look for a gfi that is tripped but still on. That GfCI would be wired backward line-load wise. However, later you mentioned that you had no N on all three outlets. So I believe it must be another problem as well. 
What time of day was it when he was using his blower, and what are the temperature outside? Hi-low?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Not that you mentioned. But it's attached.


It may possiblty that it was feed from the garage RCD { GFCI } device if that was tripped you will know know where the break is.

Merci.
Marc


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## BEAMEUP (Sep 19, 2008)

My other guess is that it is feed from the load side of a gfci t-stat used for floor heat and when the blower kicked on it tripped the t-stat


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Maybe there is a photo eye:001_huh:


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## Simple Sparky (Oct 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call:
> 
> Receptacles at front & rear decks of a SFD function intermittently. Neither are GFCI receps, just standard ones.
> 
> Go!


 Did you check if it was fed from two breakers on the same phase!


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Could this be what you are looking for?
Find the GFI that has tone. The one that has tone and is tripped will not transfer the tone to the breaker panel.


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## Simple Sparky (Oct 20, 2010)

Did you check if they were backfed from two breakers on same phase!! This might allow them from shorting


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## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

Is the switch in a cut in box too? any Pics?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This has got to be a tripped GFCI. I would check the garage again or maybe a basement storage room. With both the hot and grounded conductor open it has to be a tripped GFCI. You just have to find it. 
The 14-2 kinda takes out the kitchen or bath circuits. That's why I think you need to look for one in an odd spot, somewhere 14-2 would be allowed.
Now If the HO hacked in a bunch of crap in the basement then anything goes.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> Could this be what you are looking for?
> Find the GFI that has tone. The one that has tone and is tripped will not transfer the tone to the breaker panel.



We have a winner!

The reason I didn't get tone in the powder room GFCI is because the switch was off, so the tone couldn't follow the hot to the GFI in the powder room. I did check for tone there, but never looked at the test & reset buttons.

Once I turned the switch on, I got good tone there. So I disconnected the toner, reset the GFCI, and everything worked.

I told the HO that this was not a proper install, but he was unwilling to fix it given the basement is 85% finished and it would require some drywall demo to bring it up to Code minimum. But at least he knows when the receps don't work, check the powder room GFCI.


Putting the exterior receps on the bath GFCI would be something I would have looked for if the house was older, but since it was only 3 years old, I can't believe it even passed final electrical inspection.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Goes to show:

The customer NEVER gives the whole story.
and complains of the fee.
Had they mentioned - at your inquiry-of that switch.

In and out- minimum charge.:thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Also goes to show: Never assume it was wired to Code to begin with.


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## mdfriday (May 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Today's service call:
> 
> Receptacles at front & rear decks of a SFD function intermittently. Neither are GFCI receps, just standard ones.
> 
> Go!


I would guess they are on a switch.


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## redseal (Sep 22, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Well, you can guess all day. But the HO is watching. You need to FIND IT, not stand around scratching your head.


 
Mech room gfi, bad gfi, line works but load is fried? Reading the rest of post now


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What was your final bill for this call?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

kbsparky said:


> What was your final bill for this call?


Shall we make a pool what 480 will tell us on that one ??

I will say 250 *Euros* 


Merci.
Marc

If you really want to know the Dollar amout it will be 350 USD


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kbsparky said:


> What was your final bill for this call?





frenchelectrican said:


> Shall we make a pool what 480 will tell us on that one ??
> 
> I will say 250 *Euros*
> 
> ...


480's policy is to not post his prices on display.


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

I had a call like this once too. 2 bedrooms and 1/2 of another bedroom were off. No breakers tripped. Finally found a GFCI in the master bathroom (where everything was on, along with all the power in the master bedroom) that was tripped. It was a 40yo house though, but to piggyback a 1/3 of the house of that GFCI was pretty silly.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Archania said:


> I had a call like this once too. 2 bedrooms and 1/2 of another bedroom were off. No breakers tripped. Finally found a GFCI in the master bathroom (where everything was on, along with all the power in the master bedroom) that was tripped. It was a 40yo house though, but to piggyback a 1/3 of the house of that GFCI was pretty silly.


Why a G F C I and not an A F C I in the bedroom? Just asking! Curious! :blink:


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