# Which do you use for final connections? (links and question)



## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

1).
http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...Detail.asp?qsCatID=24628&qsProductNo=BURKSU26
2).
http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...tail.asp?qsCatID=24636&qsProductNo=BURUCG28RS
3).
http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...l.asp?qsCatID=24637&qsProductNo=BURBIPC3504/0

Personally, I hate being on a ladder at the very freakin' end of the day and having to deal with any of these -especially when it's started raining and I'm cold.
I do as much prep as I can on the ground so I just go up the ladder with off-set pliers and a correct ratcheting socket wrench (and tape if I think I need it).

Do you think it's worth spending money on an insulated bug to save time? I haven't used them much and I'm wondering if there is something cheaper and easier to use...?

This is the one part of doing services that I feel takes up some kind of unnecessary time and emotional/pissed off energy.

What do people use and why? How much should I be willing to spend on a bug to save a reasonable amount of time?
(I figure some of you bigger company guys may have figured out a "materials to labor ratio" here...)

Thanks for any advice/tips/ideas in advance!


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> 1).
> http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...Detail.asp?qsCatID=24628&qsProductNo=BURKSU26
> 2).
> http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/co...tail.asp?qsCatID=24636&qsProductNo=BURUCG28RS
> ...


I use the second one most the time. Their not bad , but I started a crimper thread and plan on getting one for the insulinks like the utility uses to save time. I figure atleast a half hour saved on the service and 6 crimps and your out no tape no bs.

And as far as cost the material cost should already be in your bid, so in reality you make more money by reducing your labor time. Check out my crimper link to see what the guys have recommended so far.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> I use the second one most the time. Their not bad , but I started a crimper thread and plan on getting one for the insulinks like the utility uses to save time. I figure atleast a half hour saved on the service and 6 crimps and your out no tape no bs.


Hi,
I'm not sure how I would use crimps on a straight poco line that goes from house to house.
Obviously if you have the end of a wire, you could use butt-crimps (I think that's what they are called), but if I'm doing the service on the back of an apartment building, I'm clamping into the middles of the hots/neutral as they go from building to building.
Is there a crimping product that can do this?
I guess I could cut the old service feeder wire and crimp onto the end of the (let's say) 100amp wire "pigtail" that comes off the old (also 100 amp) bugs, but that's kinda cheating on a 200 amp service if that's what you meant... 

Or am I missing something about how a crimping device could actually work in the middle of the power co.'s wires?


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Or am I missing something?


OSHA 1910?:whistling2:


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> OSHA 1910?:whistling2:


Thanks
I meant about the crimp connecting devices ...cause I don't know of anything that would work in my scenario above.
(I'll edit my post above)


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Hi,
> I'm not sure how I would use crimps on a straight poco line that goes from house to house.
> Obviously if you have the end of a wire, you could use butt-crimps (I think that's what they are called), but if I'm doing the service on the back of an apartment building, I'm clamping into the middles of the hots/neutral as they go from building to building.
> Is there a crimping product that can do this?
> ...


Sorry your first post mentioned nothing about an inline connection, never seen one except the center taps used by poco to bring service from the line to the structure most buildings I see or work on have seperate feeds to each building. Then if multiple services in that building it is tapped off at that point.


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## hooch (Sep 18, 2010)

I have used #3 very simple. for your app. just make sure you clank the hell out of them if not they will burn.i use the with newbe's to get them use to hooking power back up. there is no way you can get hit off of them


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> OSHA 1910?:whistling2:


STFU and start living in real life


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> And as far as cost the material cost should already be in your bid, so in reality you make more money by reducing your labor time.


Yeah, I am wondering about this balance:
There is a $30 price difference between either #1 or #2 and #3.

So to use #3 which is faster and safest, will I make $90 in labor costs?

(3 bugs at $30 extra per bug)

I doubt I would save $90 in labor, but then again...



hooch said:


> I have used #3 very simple. for your app. just make sure you clank the hell out of them if not they will burn.i use the with newbe's to get them use to hooking power back up. there is no way you can get hit off of them


..maybe the safety issue is even more important. Especially for new helpers and especially at the end of the day 

Anyone else have some thoughts on this?


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Greg Sparkovich said:


> Yeah, I am wondering about this balance:
> There is a $30 price difference between either #1 or #2 and #3.
> 
> So to use #3 which is faster and safest, will I make $90 in labor costs?
> ...


No the labor cost savings is by going to the crimp ons over using any of the bug nuts you showed.

As far as the bug nuts I see no labor savings between the 3. I just use the plain Jane ones in #2,


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

I use H taps.
Size varies according to size of service.

Here's an example. Not where I buy them though.
http://www.drillspot.com/products/6...overhead_cable_tap_taps_cable-cable_connector


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BrianA said:


> I use H taps.
> Size varies according to size of service.
> 
> Here's an example. Not where I buy them though.
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/6...overhead_cable_tap_taps_cable-cable_connector


Those are better than bug nuts in my opinion, except the cost, but you still need to tape them so I'd rather use the insulinks like the utility, no tape, cheaper, and quicker.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

If you're gonna do them yourself H taps are a good way to go, plus you can use them for other stuff and same with the crimper (Burndy MD6-8) A Battery crimper is a little easier to use on a ladder but you're talking some cash outlay for one. 



AFOREMA1 said:


> Those are better than bug nuts in my opinion, except the cost, but you still need to tape them so I'd rather use the insulinks like the utility, no tape, cheaper, and quicker.


You can get insulating coves for H taps.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> If you're gonna do them yourself H taps are a good way to go, plus you can use them for other stuff and same with the crimper (Burndy MD6-8) A Battery crimper is a little easier to use on a ladder but you're talking some cash outlay for one.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get insulating coves for H taps.


The MD6-8 is the one with multiple dies right? So you can do the bigger insulinks for 4/0 al services?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> The MD6-8 is the one with multiple dies right? So you can do the bigger insulinks for 4/0 al services?


It's got an O and D3 dies, So it'll do large and small H taps and then you can put standard W- dies in it to do other things. I take MD's advice and look for them used, one can get a good deal on them.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> It's got an O and D3 dies, So it'll do large and small H taps and then you can put standard W- dies in it to do other things. I take MD's advice and look for them used, one can get a good deal on them.


Thanks


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> If you're gonna do them yourself H taps are a good way to go, plus you can use them for other stuff and same with the crimper (Burndy MD6-8) A Battery crimper is a little easier to use on a ladder but you're talking some cash outlay for one.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get insulating covers for H taps.






Snap on covers, we always called them boots.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

or










and a roll of tape

Don't over think it.


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> It's got an O and D3 dies, So it'll do large and small H taps and then you can put standard W- dies in it to do other things. I take MD's advice and look for them used, one can get a good deal on them.


I've also got a set of BG dies that fit in my MD6-8 so you can crimp the straight insulinks. The only drawback to the insulink butt splice is I've never seen any that tap the #1 lateral to a 2/0 or 4/0 service conductor.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BrianA said:


> I've also got a set of BG dies that fit in my MD6-8 so you can crimp the straight insulinks. The only drawback to the insulink butt splice is I've never seen any that tap the #1 lateral to a 2/0 or 4/0 service conductor.


Are the htaps better for tapping the #1 lateral to the bigger 2/0 or4/0 al SEU connections Brian? Or do you recommend something else.


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

I use crimps. Alot faster and easier Got my set from a guy that inherited them he didn't no what they was and only wanted $10 for them. I would have spent 10 times that and still hot them really cheap

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BrianA said:


> I've also got a set of BG dies that fit in my MD6-8 so you can crimp the straight insulinks. The only drawback to the insulink butt splice is I've never seen any that tap the #1 lateral to a 2/0 or 4/0 service conductor.


Penn Union does. You need a different die though. I want to say the W-K840.


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## BrianA (Dec 28, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Are the htaps better for tapping the #1 lateral to the bigger 2/0 or4/0 al SEU connections Brian? Or do you recommend something else.



H taps are the way to go when the lateral is a different size than the service which is in most cases.
They're not that expensive if you shop around and you can get the snap on covers as someone pointed out or if necessary you can tape them.
H taps are used by the POCO here.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Anyone ever try these? 

http://www.goodmart.com/products/ideal-btc1-0-10-main-1-0-8-awg-tap-2-10-awg.htm

Price seems good, ($16) they also have standard taps and these in other combinations. 

I used another type of connector in a panel swap I did some time ago that would work as well...they are about $15-20 each. Here's a pic of them on the feeder to a subpanel:










And here's the link to the thread for those who are interested:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f9/federal-pacific-subpanel-i-changed-out-fire-away-25489/

Those connectors come in a range of sizes and accept from two to eight conductors. They also have an "inline" version which I think would be more suitable for a service change.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I haven't cut a drop, or crimped a drop in ten years. You guys are doing something wrong. All it takes is a little coordination, or a little brain power to avoid this. I can usually pull the meter, wire the load side to my new meter can, and then reinstall the old meter. They'll remove when they come put a meter in the new can. Quit doing things how you saw your fathers do it and use your head, before you end up dead.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I haven't cut a drop, or crimped a drop in ten years. You guys are doing something wrong. All it takes is a little coordination, or a little brain power to avoid this. I can usually pull the meter, wire the load side to my new meter can, and then reinstall the old meter. They'll remove when they come put a meter in the new can. Quit doing things how you saw your fathers do it and use your head, before you end up dead.


That may work in your area where meter cans are common, but here most services are combo meter/panels. Most risers are woefully undersized. Most upgrades require the service riser to be relocated by order of the POCO. The POCO here does NOT do disconnect/reconnects on overhead (residential) services, they fully expect the electrician to have the brains to be able to handle that task. (It is even written in their service requirements book that the electrician is responsible for disconnecting/reconnecting the drop.) 

While I like your method for its safety aspects, it wouldn't fly here. 

Finally, let's not reopen the live drop debate again, that horse has been beaten, buried and is rotting away in the ground by now.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> That may work in your area where meter cans are common, but here most services are combo meter/panels. Most risers are woefully undersized. Most upgrades require the service riser to be relocated by order of the POCO. The POCO here does NOT do disconnect/reconnects on overhead (residential) services, they fully expect the electrician to have the brains to be able to handle that task. (It is even written in their service requirements book that the electrician is responsible for disconnecting/reconnecting the drop.)
> 
> While I like your method for its safety aspects, it wouldn't fly here.
> 
> Finally, let's not reopen the live drop debate again, that horse has been beaten, buried and is rotting away in the ground by now.


I don't believe you that they put it in writing you have to work it hot, secondly, your setups are no different than here. The drops are undersized during an upgrade, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that no load can be added until they've completed their side of things. Stop kidding yourself, half these guys are cutting drops because they're doing things without permits and inspections. Get over yourself would you?


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I haven't cut a drop, or crimped a drop in ten years. You guys are doing something wrong. All it takes is a little coordination, or a little brain power to avoid this. I can usually pull the meter, wire the load side to my new meter can, and then reinstall the old meter. They'll remove when they come put a meter in the new can. Quit doing things how you saw your fathers do it and use your head, before you end up dead.


And how do you change the feed to the overhead to the correct size wire if you never cut it and replace it? 
How are you powering the new meter are you pulling the hot feed out of the old box and reinstalling in the new, because that ain't safer. So how are you putting the new feed from the meter to the drop when you do a change or do you just leave the old wire and do half a change your not explaining your magic no hot work very well.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> And how do you change the feed to the overhead to the correct size wire if you never cut it and replace it?
> How are you powering the new meter are you pulling the hot feed out of the old box and reinstalling in the new, because that ain't safer. So how are you putting the new feed from the meter to the drop when you do a change or do you just leave the old wire and do half a change your not explaining your magic no hot work very well.


I install a new drop, and new metercan. I then pull the old meter, jumper from that to the new meter, and plug it back in. It stays that way until they complete their side of things. No load can be added until then, since it's running off the old wire.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't believe you that they put it in writing you have to work it hot, secondly, your setups are no different than here. The drops are undersized during an upgrade, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that no load can be added until they've completed their side of things. Stop kidding yourself, half these guys are cutting drops because they're doing things without permits and inspections. Get over yourself would you?


First here anyway we are required to do our own disconnect/reconnects and the poco will come out after its been inspected and place the new meter in and retrieve the new. On new construction and commercial they do it when they rum the new overhead. 

And guess what whether I do it or they do it is still done hot tell me how you do it any other way without them turning of power to the whole sub and that isn't going to happen. So services are always hooked up hot. You just need to be trained and use the proper PPE and safety precautions.

The utility here rarely upgrades an overhead service unless it burns up or becomes damaged so you can't coordinate with them. You just use the same service for your 100 a as you do for your 200 a. It's a good thought to coordinate with them when they upgrade their feed but if that ain't happening then you just have to do your job.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't believe you that they put it in writing you have to work it hot, secondly, your setups are no different than here. The drops are undersized during an upgrade, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that no load can be added until they've completed their side of things. Stop kidding yourself, half these guys are cutting drops because they're doing things without permits and inspections. Get over yourself would you?


Man you are on a rip today aren't you? Why is it so hard for you at accept that this is a huge country, there are literally thousands of different POCO's and jurisdictions and they ALL have their own methods and rules? 

We have in-wall service risers here, SE cable is extremely rare, etc. How do you KNOW that "..*your setups are no different than here.* " How do I know that YOURS and NO different than here? I do not and so I don't spout off that you're doing it wrong. 

YOU sir need to get over yourself!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> First here anyway we are required to do our own disconnect/reconnects and the poco will come out after its been inspected and place the new meter in and retrieve the new. On new construction and commercial they do it when they rum the new overhead.
> 
> And guess what whether I do it or they do it is still done hot tell me how you do it any other way without them turning of power to the whole sub and that isn't going to happen. So services are always hooked up hot. You just need to be trained and use the proper PPE and safety precautions.
> 
> The utility here rarely upgrades an overhead service unless it burns up or becomes damaged so you can't coordinate with them. You just use the same service for your 100 a as you do for your 200 a. It's a good thought to coordinate with them when they upgrade their feed but if that ain't happening then you just have to do your job.


I don't do much coordination, I temp it in like I said. Sometimes they might not finish their side for 1 year. My payment is not contingent on their schedule. OSHA does not allow what you guys are doing.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I install a new drop, and new metercan. I then pull the old meter, jumper from that to the new meter, and plug it back in. It stays that way until they complete their side of things. No load can be added until then, since it's running off the old wire.


That makes it more clear , but here it could go years before they came by and did anything about it here . I wish the utility would upgrade the overheads and do the service drop connections but it is just not their policy here I think they are too understaffed and too busy catching up on power outages to be bothered with it. So its been pushed to us.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Man you are on a rip today aren't you? Why is it so hard for you at accept that this is a huge country, there are literally thousands of different POCO's and jurisdictions and they ALL have their own methods and rules?
> 
> We have in-wall service risers here, SE cable is extremely rare, etc. How do you KNOW that "..your setups are no different than here. " How do I know that YOURS and NO different than here? I do not and so I don't spout off that you're doing it wrong.
> 
> YOU sir need to get over yourself!!


Many power companies yes, one OSHA. You, according to them, NOT ME, you're the one doing it wrong.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> That makes it more clear , but here it could go years before they came by and did anything about it here . I wish the utility would upgrade the overheads and do the service drop connections but it is just not their policy here I think they are too understaffed and too busy catching up on power outages to be bothered with it. So its been pushed to us.


I've had some that didn't get completed for 1.5 years after I left. Not my problem.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't do much coordination, I temp it in like I said. Sometimes they might not finish their side for 1 year. My payment is not contingent on their schedule. OSHA does not allow what you guys are doing.


It's either me or the power guy as I said either way it is tied in hot and OSHA does allow hot work it just must be minimized and if possible power removed. Since it is not possible to disrupt entire areas to shut lines down to do hook UPS it must be done hot.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> It's either me or the power guy as I said either way it is tied in hot and OSHA does allow hot work it just must be minimized and if possible power removed. Since it is not possible to disrupt entire areas to shut lines down to do hook UPS it must be done hot.


You need to read what OSHA calls reasons for hotwork before we can continue this conversation. Old people missing soap operas is not on their list. You're wrong


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Many power companies yes, one OSHA. You, according to them, NOT ME, you're the one doing it wrong.


And I am gonna surprise you by saying that I agree with you. 

Now, leaving OSHA aside for a moment, how do you propose one handles a service change when:

1: The POCO will not do, and expects the electrician to do, the cutover;
2: The AHJs are fully aware of this and have no issue with it (right or wrong);
3: The customer reasonably expects the service change to be done in a timely manner, which means not leaving them without power for the hours (or days) for the POCO to show up to do a reconnect.

Again, I agree that by OSHA rules, it is wrong. (Unless you are a one-man shop and can use that exemption.) 

Unless OSHA can FORCE the POCOs here (and elsewhere) to change how they handle this, the real-world reality is that the EC's will continue to do the cutovers as specified by the POCO's standards, and each EC will assess the risk according to their own abilities. If they can't handle this simple procedure safely they will not survive that facet of their business and need to stick to what they can handle. 

This is a rehash of that same old debate..and neither you nor I can force anyone else on this forum to change how they do things. I will continue to do cutovers as authorized by the POCO until their policy changes.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> 1: The POCO will not do, and expects the electrician to do, the cutover;


I don't believe that.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't believe that.


Believe what you want, that is the policy IN WRITING of the POCO in my area. 

You mileage may differ.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mxslick said:


> Believe what you want, that is the policy IN WRITING of the POCO in my area.
> 
> You mileage may differ.


If it's in writing, prove it.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You need to read what OSHA calls reasons for hotwork before we can continue this conversation. Old people missing soap operas is not on their list. You're wrong


Hot work is welding and cutting , bit I'm sure you mean Hot electrical work. The first and best reason is I am not an employee so OSHA doesn't apply to me. The second would would be that I am a qualified person and trained in the necessary precautions and safety procedures and equipment required to do hot work and to do a hot work permit for my records just because. And the third is that the service drop is part of the utility distribution system and it is infeasible to shut down the system every time a home needs to be connected and live work is allowed by qualified individuals on distribution systems which the service drop is part of.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I haven't cut a drop, or crimped a drop in ten years. You guys are doing something wrong. All it takes is a little coordination, or a little brain power to avoid this. I can usually pull the meter, wire the load side to my new meter can, and then reinstall the old meter. They'll remove when they come put a meter in the new can. Quit doing things how you saw your fathers do it and use your head, before you end up dead.


Get real. You don't know how lucky you are if your POCO finishes your job for you.
I'm doing a service for a customer who is living in a house in a city and if you think the POCO is going to take on the responsibility of -HAHAHA!!!- "making an appointment" and showing up at the exact right time to make my final connections for me you are living in a dream world.
My final connections are ALWAYS hot. It's the last step of EVERY service replacement/upgrade. There's no jumpering, there's no temporary connections. How is THAT SAFER for the customer, wandering neighborhood kids, or the building itself??? There's an inspection to make sure I did it right and that's all.
Your ignorance and inability to understand that the world is bigger than YOUR jobs and the way YOU and your ass-backwards POCO do things is -frankly- kinda embarrassing for you if you're older than 20. Because I can't imagine anyone with any degree of sophistication being unable to understand that different cities operate under different guidelines.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant, arrogant, sight-sighted or illogical post on this message board.
And again: you're lucky, so count your blessings.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Get over yourself would you?


:no::no:

So your saying basically you install the new service next to the old one install a jumper and leave that mess there for a year or so until the POCO gets around to cleaning it up for you and you think thats safer then bugging it in yourself?

I think your POCO is like some of the others that expect you to do it but your too chicken sh!t and hide behind OSHA. 

Change your tampon climb the ladder and cut it in.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Fight, fight:boxing:


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I guess we are lucky. Call the poco, schedule an app. 99% of the time they arrive on time. Call when your done and they come hook it back up. No problems.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

LIPA truck last week supplied me with this stuff


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

to answer the OP question I use the H tap crimps, I think they are under a $1 each. I currently own a Greenlee crimper which was $200. Waiting for the new Greenlee Gator crimper to come out so I can use that. 
The down side to manual crimper is that it puts alot of pressure on your on your elbows and after years of crimping my elbows are starting to bother me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

First of all, anyone with 70E & the appropriate PPE can do a _'street splice'_

2ndly, many poco's see the 'point of attachment' as being the point where their liablilty stops, so you could make it bomb proff, and they'd cut it out and do it to their specs

3rd, many poco's have internal rules that would preclude _anyone_ other than _them_ to make said splice, but as appointments go, most field reps are more than willing to simply send the line crew in for _'permament connection'_ at their convienience

~CS~


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