# It's better if it's continuous....



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Did you ask him why he thought it was better?

Chris


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

raider1 said:


> Did you ask him why he thought it was better?
> 
> Chris



He just said it was better....I think he got confused and was thinking it was a GEC. We have a lot of multi inspectors and I believe he was one. Nice enough guy and he did approve it. But I thought they were not supposed to give opinions other than it is code compliant or it is not. If it is not then they can give options about what to do to make it code compliant.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

It's also better if you use spec grade devices and bolt on breakers...........Doesn't mean you have to.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm lost. What wire isn't continuous? The wire to the ground rods? Isn't that a GEC?


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm lost. What wire isn't continuous? The wire to the ground rods? Isn't that a GEC?



Sounds like the GEC was continous to the 1st rod, then a second wire bonded the second rod to the first.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> Sounds like the GEC was continous to the 1st rod, then a second wire bonded the second rod to the first.


That's legal.

Not the way I do it, but still okee dokee in my book.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

I would have made you and the gc install a ufer if you dared question me, the all-knowing inspector. lol:thumbup:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jsmit319 said:


> I would have made you and the gc install a ufer if you dared question me, the all-knowing inspector. lol:thumbup:



They are building a garage which I will either pull a 12-3 from the house service or run feeders to the garage and set a panel. See if I have this correct in my mind.....

If I pull a 12-3..... I need no ground rods at the garage and my 2pole 20a in service panel is my disconnect?....or am I not thinking and I still need a disconnect in garage? And I would need no cee

If I put a 60a breaker in service panel and feed a main lug with 6 or less circuits to the garage they are the disconnects and I add the 2 ground rods required by my ahj. I then would have to tie the cee to the ges at garage.

Am I confused more than usual?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> That's legal.
> 
> Not the way I do it, but still okee dokee in my book.


I'm weird...I like to run a seperate wire between the rods. It's easier than fighting the roll of #4 bare trying to loop IMO. Everybody has there way of doing it....as this inspector wanted me to know....:laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I'm lost. What wire isn't continuous? The wire to the ground rods? Isn't that a GEC?



Since I have a copper pipe that meets the definition of an electrode (and a gas tank that might...) would the wire to the rods not be a "supplemental gec" and could be spliced?????


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Since I have a copper pipe that meets the definition of an electrode (and a gas tank that might...) would the wire to the rods not be a "supplemental gec" and could be spliced?????


No such thing as a "supplemental gec" but what you are describing is a bonding jumper as described in 250.53(C) and is fine.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> No such thing as a "supplemental gec" but what you are describing is a bonding jumper as described in 250.53(C) and is fine.


Bob will you read all of post 9 and see if I have it right?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I'm weird...I like to run a seperate wire between the rods. It's easier than fighting the roll of #4 bare trying to loop IMO. Everybody has there way of doing it....as this inspector wanted me to know....:laughing:


I don't see the 'extra work' issue. Run enough wire to reach both rods. Slide an acorn down the wire and install it on the first rod. Now simply hook up the second rod.

Not sure what you mean by 'loop'.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

You still need a disconnect, just don't need a GEC system b/c its a mwbc.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> They are building a garage which I will either pull a 12-3 from the house service or run feeders to the garage and set a panel. See if I have this correct in my mind.....
> 
> If I pull a 12-3..... I need no ground rods at the garage and my 2pole 20a in service panel is my disconnect?....or am I not thinking and I still need a disconnect in garage? And I would need no cee
> 
> ...


If you run 12/3 multiwire branch circuit

You will not need a grounding electrode.

You must have disconnecting means at the remote building. BUT for a multiwire branch circuit it can be two single pole switches as allowed by 225.33(A) and as long as this is an out building or residential property they do not have to be 'service rated' See the exception to 225.36.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> If you run 12/3 multiwire branch circuit
> 
> You will not need a grounding electrode.
> 
> You must have disconnecting means at the remote building. BUT for a multiwire branch circuit it can be two single pole switches as allowed by 225.33(A) and as long as this is an out building or residential property they do not have to be 'service rated' See the exception to 225.36.





That is what I thought. I was getting branch circuits and feeder rules confused..THANKS BOB!


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Since I have a copper pipe that meets the definition of an electrode (and a gas tank that might...) would the wire to the rods not be a "supplemental gec" and could be spliced?????


From the NEC Handbook (2002)

It shows where a GEC ends and ways you can save time and money.










I saved running about 300' of EMT with a 3/0 copper in it by using the buildings structural steel as the connection from the service to the water line.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> If you run 12/3 multiwire branch circuit
> 
> You will not need a grounding electrode.
> 
> You must have disconnecting means at the remote building. BUT for a multiwire branch circuit it can be two single pole switches as allowed by 225.33(A) and as long as this is an out building or residential property they do not have to be 'service rated' See the exception to 225.36.


Just for arguments sake, a double pole switch would be acceptable also, correct?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I don't see the 'extra work' issue. Run enough wire to reach both rods. Slide an acorn down the wire and install it on the first rod. Now simply hook up the second rod.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by 'loop'.




I like the #4 bare to look straight and every time I try it your way I kink it a little. I've done it both ways.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> From the NEC Handbook (2002)
> 
> It shows where a GEC ends and ways you can save time and money.
> 
> ...





That shows full size gec's to the water pipe and the Building steel. That is because both are qualified electrodes. Correct? The rest can be bonded. If you had no building steel the Cee would need a full size also?

Also if you have an building steel and a qualified water pipe electrode you do not need any other supplemental electrodes correct?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I like the #4 bare to look straight and every time I try it your way I kink it a little. I've done it both ways.



I don't care what it looks like..... when it gets buried in the ground.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Just for arguments sake, a double pole switch would be acceptable also, correct?


I think so.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I don't care what it looks like..... when it gets buried in the ground.


I would usually put it in the panel first strap it and then run to my rods. I would not roll off but what I need and cut so the wire stays straight. I'm ocd 480. I'm sure there are easier ways...but I'm an old dog.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I would usually put it in the panel first strap it and then run to my rods. I would not roll off but what I need and cut so the wire stays straight. I'm ocd 480. I'm sure there are easier ways...but I'm an old dog.


I roll it off outside, and then run one end in to the panel, making it look all nice n purtee. Once it hits the ground, it can look like cooked spaghetti or a pretzel for all I care.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> That shows full size gec's to the water pipe and the Building steel.


No

That shows only one full size GEC, in that layout the only GEC is from the panel to the water line.

ALL the other conductors are bonding jumpers.




> That is because both are qualified electrodes. Correct?


All of them are electrodes, but there is no NEC requirement to add the ground ring and ground rod when other electrodes exist.



> If you had no building steel the Cee would need a full size also?


No, the CEE never has to be larger than 4 AWG copper.




> Also if you have an building steel and a qualified water pipe electrode you do not need any other supplemental electrodes correct?


A water line always requires a supplemental electrode, but in the situation you are describing the building steel would be the supplemental electrode. It would still have to be connected with a 'full size' conductor.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Who was this inspector?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> No.
> 
> That shows only one full size GEC, in that layout the only GEC is from the panel to the water line..


Bob please take a few minutes and try to answer my questions. I truly appreciate all the knowledge you share with everyone and I learn a lot from you. I just want to get this straight in my mind. 


It says full size gec from panel to h20 pipe and says full size from h2o pipe to building steel. Please explain this part. 



Bob Badger said:


> ALL the other conductors are bonding jumpers..


I see the building steel, rods etc are supplemental and only require a #6. I understand this. But I see the water line connected to it with a full size gec and get confused.






Bob Badger said:


> All of them are electrodes, but there is no NEC requirement to add the ground ring and ground rod when other electrodes exist.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the CEE never has to be larger than 4 AWG copper..


Say you had plastic water pipe and a cce and steel. You would run full size gec to steel and bond cce.The cce would be your supplemental and not need any rods. Correct?






Bob Badger said:


> A water line always requires a supplemental electrode, but in the situation you are describing the building steel would be the supplemental electrode. It would still have to be connected with a 'full size' conductor.



Ok this is where I think I am confused. You are saying the water pipe AND steel IF present are the only two electrodes that require a full size gec. Everything else is supplemental and requires only a #6.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Who was this inspector?




He knows you. We had a nice conversation about you.......J/k :jester: I didn't ask his name and he didn't say. Older guy Dad had never seen either and he has been getting inspections since 74 in this fine county. Thats why I think he might be a multi. Real nice guy...... But I have never had one tell me anything other than it looks good or you can't do that you FAIL!!. Never "its better to do it this way".:laughing:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Bob please take a few minutes and try to answer my questions.


Bump this thread tomorrow night and I will.

I just had to stop and pull a toilet up because my kid dropped something down it. 

Had to send the wife to blows for new wax ring, while I dug into stuff only plumbers should touch.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> Bump this thread tomorrow night and I will.
> 
> I just had to stop and pull a toilet up because my kid dropped something down it.
> 
> Had to send the wife to blows for new wax ring, while I dug into stuff only plumbers should touch.




Been there done that.......it wasn't pretty. My friend is a plumber and was working at a hospital.....thought it was a puddle with a 2x4 layed across....he stepped and went in and under the uh waste......Feel better now?:laughing:

I will bump it tomorrow night. I'll also look at my handbook a little closer. Thanks Badger!!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> So I meet the inspector this morning. I had to install my ground rods before I move the service. Gc wanted them in before he weather proofed the wall. Didn't want anyone digging where he sealed. We ran 3" pvc for poco as well for the same reason.
> Inspector says your wire needs to be continuous....I say no only the GEC must be continuous. This is a bond to my supplemental electrodes...I see him thinking and I can tell the gears are turning in his mind....he says well "ITS BETTER" if it's continuous......I say but it's legal to do it my way. I use an extra acorn clamp but I prefer to do it this way....Ok I'll approve it..


Inspector with an obsession with grounding? WTF is RIV inspecting in nc now. :laughing:



Bob Badger said:


> Bump this thread tomorrow night and I will.
> I just had to stop and pull a toilet up because my kid dropped something down it.
> Had to send the wife to blows for new wax ring, while I dug into stuff only plumbers should touch.


Quityourbitching, you get to reach down your own toilet. I have had to reach into a grinder pump and pull out medical waste and Gawd knows what else.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I'm weird...I like to run a seperate wire between the rods. It's easier than fighting the roll of #4 bare trying to loop IMO.....


Why would you fight a #4 bare on ground rods? We would be using #6 on such an application.....


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> I just want to get this straight in my mind.


If I can put in my 2 cents regarding the grounding electrode picture that was posted...

From what I understand, the NEC allows a couple different ways to run GECs and bond grounding electrodes. You can:

1) Run a separate GEC for each electrode, sized as required for that particular electrode (#4 for ufer, #6 for rod, per table 250.66 for other stuff, etc.). This might work well in a small electrical room where all of the electrodes present happen to be available in the immediate vicinity. Otherwise, maybe not.

2) Run a GEC to an electrode (such as the water pipe in the picture) and interconnect the rest of the electrodes with bonding jumpers. When you run the GEC to the water pipe, now the whole metal water pipe system is a grounding electrode. This might be handy if the water pipe system goes all over the building cause you can jump off of it to whatever electrodes you have scattered about (structural metal, for instance). The key here though is not to "bottleneck" one of your electrodes with an undersized bonding jumper.

Example: Suitable metal underground water pipe electrode is connected to the panel with a 4/0 copper GEC. Further on down the pipe system, you put another pipe bond clamp and install a #6 copper BONDING JUMPER (not a GEC anymore) to a ground rod. Then, you get a really big acorn clamp and run a 4/0 copper bonding jumper from the ground rod to the building steel. This would be a violation, because the building steel would need a bonding jumper sized from Table 250.66 which in this case would be 4/0 copper. But by "bottlenecking" the wire size through the #6 ground rod wire, the effectiveness of the building steel as an electrode is reduced.

There are some other ways of arranging grounding electrode systems too but I think they're for use on services with multiple disconnects or something. I can't remember right now.

All in all, the GEC is the wire that connects your grounded conductor to the grounding electrode SYSTEM. The GE system could be a single ground rod, or it could be a whole slew of electrodes all interconnected with properly sized wires.

Don't know if that answers any questions, but maybe it will help :blink:

EDIT: I might be wrong about running separate GECs for each electrode for a service with only one disconnect enclosure. I don't have my code book in front of me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please :thumbup:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Ok this is where I think I am confused. You are saying the water pipe AND steel IF present are the only two electrodes that require a full size gec. Everything else is supplemental and requires only a #6.


Supplemental or not, all the electrode types have a bonding jumper or GEC minimum sizing requirement. Rod or plate electrodes take #6. CCE takes #4. Ground rings I think you size off of table 250.66 but the wire size doesn't need to be larger than whatever the ground ring wire size is. All other electrodes are sized off of Table 250.66.

Again, the key is not to "bottleneck" electrodes with an undersized wire. If you have a service requiring 2/0 to building steel, and you also have a 1/0 ground ring, you'd need to run the 2/0 GEC to the building steel first, and then a 1/0 bonding jumper to the ground ring. If you ran a 1/0 GEC to the ground ring first, and then a 2/0 from the ring to the steel, then you'd essentially be limiting the steel to a 1/0 conductor instead of the 2/0 it required.

The cool part about building steel is that it's everywhere in the building. As long as it's all interconnected then you can run a full-size GEC to the nearest steel structure part, and then just run a bonding jumper from wherever else on the structure to each of your electrode locations. EDIT: This only works if the structural steel qualifies as an electrode.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> Why would you fight a #4 bare on ground rods? We would be using #6 on such an application.....


Our Ahj and I believe all counties in NC requires 2 rods and #4 bare....


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