# Junction box accessibility



## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Let's start a Poll: I say no go.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I don't like the idea at all. This sounds like a hotel remodel.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Sounds like you need to get rid of everything and start from scratch.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Sounds like you need to get rid of everything and start from scratch.


 But wait the GC doesn't have time for that.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

why ask the internet ? ask your ahj. more than likely the answer will be no, unless the mirror swings out on hinges or something crazy like that.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

wildleg said:


> why ask the internet ? ask your ahj. more than likely the answer will be no, unless the mirror swings out on hinges or something crazy like that.


 
That works for me and install a wall safe next to it:thumbup:


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## Geoff C (May 26, 2010)

Just write "J-Box Behind Mirror" on the mirror in black sharpie


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I say no also. It sounds like you can get to what you need to without tearing up too much rock. 

I think if you are going to leave the old boxes, at least repull the wire so there are no joints in the boxes.


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## Tapeman (Feb 24, 2009)

I believe that the Code states (if my memory serves me) accessable "without disturbing the building finish".

So I would say it would be OK.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Just an idea:








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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Just an idea:


I would laugh my azz off if I saw that in the wild. But it's a perfectly legal fix i'd say.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> I would laugh my azz off if I saw that in the wild. But it's a perfectly legal fix i'd say.


 Does that ridged coupling have a 3rd party label?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Does that ridged coupling have a 3rd party label?


 Kinda off topic but I wonder if a guy could buy a UL stamp. I would bet that somebody somewhere is selling them out of the trunk of his car.:laughing:


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## Landmark (Mar 7, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Just an idea:


 for some reason I can't see any picture. What are you showing?


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## Landmark (Mar 7, 2010)

I didn't bid this job correctly, so I'm looking for ways to save some labor. The inspector is letting me use romex. I really don't want to extend the conduit and pull new wires, but I guess I'll do what I need to do and call it an expensive learning experience!


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## Landmark (Mar 7, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I think if you are going to leave the old boxes, at least repull the wire so there are no joints in the boxes.


 As long as there are no connections in the box it's not a j-box? So I can push it back in the wall, put a plate on it and cover it with sheetrock??


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Landmark said:


> As long as there are no connections in the box it's not a j-box? So I can push it back in the wall, put a plate on it and cover it with sheetrock??


 Cover it with rock, no. It is still a pull box and needs to be accessible. It would be no different than burying an LB. 

If you go with 480's idea I would say you could cover it up.


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## Landmark (Mar 7, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> Cover it with rock, no. It is still a pull box and needs to be accessible. It would be no different than burying an LB.
> 
> If you go with 480's idea I would say you could cover it up.


 I don't know what 480 is showing. For some reason I can't see any picture. The other problem is some of these boxes have 4 conduits coming in to them. FYI this is a college dorm bathroom remodel.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> Kinda off topic but I wonder if a guy could buy a UL stamp. I would bet that somebody somewhere is selling them out of the trunk of his car.:laughing:


 I have had a GC that furnished all the light fixtures on a job hand me a whole sheets of UL stickers because the fixtures that the GC had bought didn't come with them.:laughing::laughing: And the funny thing is there was about 550 of them.:laughing::laughing: I just love owner furnished fixtures.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Landmark said:


> I don't know what 480 is showing. For some reason I can't see any picture. The other problem is some of these boxes have 4 conduits coming in to them. FYI this is a college dorm bathroom remodel.


Try right-clicking on the red X, then choose "Show Picture".


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Landmark said:


> As long as there are no connections in the box it's not a j-box? So I can push it back in the wall, put a plate on it and cover it with sheetrock??


 HELL NO.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

william1978 said:


> HELL NO.



*314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.*
Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

william1978 said:


> I have had a GC that furnished all the light fixtures on a job hand me a whole sheets of UL stickers because the fixtures that the GC had bought didn't come with them.:laughing::laughing: And the funny thing is there was about 550 of them.:laughing::laughing: I just love owner furnished fixtures.


 Something that should be on every truck.:laughing:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> Something that should be on every truck.:laughing:


 The GC got all pissed off when I refused to install the stickers. I asked my inspector at the time and he asked if he could have a sheet of the stickers and of course I let him have one. He called UL and then UL made the company that made those lights start having periodic inspections at the plant.


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## Landmark (Mar 7, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Try right-clicking on the red X, then choose "Show Picture".


 I don't see any red x. I have filtered internet, maybe it's messing it up.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

x x x x x x x x


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## Big City Electrician (Jul 5, 2010)

If you put a blank plate on those boxes it is not a code violation. If the drywaller rocks over the boxes then it is he that is violating the code, not you. 










"Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I'd have produced that key if they hadn't of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers... "


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

mattsilkwood said:


> I would laugh my azz off if I saw that in the wild. But it's a perfectly legal fix i'd say.


 Ditto, but I agree it's legal. And I'll remember that little trick if I'm ever in a similar jam. :thumbup:

-John


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> *314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.*
> Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.


 
A mirror is not part of the building in my opinion and behind a mirror that is just clipped in meets my definition of accessible. 

If you put a j-box in a drop ceiling you don't consider it not accessible because you have to remove a tile.

Inspector might see this one differently though.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

how do you know they are going to just clip it in. maybe they are going to glue it in too. IMO a mirror is a building finish, and can only cover a box when you cut a hole in it and put a mirrored (if you care) cover on the box. Otherwise who the hell is going to think to pull every mirror off the walls looking for junction boxes ? that's crazy talk.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

This is a remodel job, and this one is open to interpretation. If the mirror is glued in then I'd say it's not accessible. You could put a sticker in the service about the hard to find junction box. I'd never do that in new construction but I might run it by the inspector on a remodel.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

wildleg said:


> how do you know they are going to just clip it in. maybe they are going to glue it in too. IMO a mirror is a building finish, and can only cover a box when you cut a hole in it and put a mirrored (if you care) cover on the box. Otherwise who the hell is going to think to pull every mirror off the walls looking for junction boxes ? that's crazy talk.


I've actually found GFI's behind mirrors before. Owner hangs a mirror over the GFI then sells the house. Not the best situation but if I was in a bathroom and things weren't making sense I'd peek behind the mirror.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Landmark said:


> I didn't bid this job correctly, so I'm looking for ways to save some labor. The inspector is letting me use romex. I really don't want to extend the conduit and pull new wires, but I guess I'll do what I need to do and call it an expensive learning experience!


Just remove the box and pull romex thru the conduit to the new light location.

PS. I wouldn't think twice about splicing and covering the JB with a screwed on mirror. Anyone troubleshooting would know exacly where to look.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

NEC 2008 314.29 reads "Boxes, conduit Bodies and handhold Enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building" it does not say building finish or building decorations it says building. 
The definition of Building talks of “structure” not “embellishments” and a mirror would be an “add on” that could be put anywhere at anytime. 
The next item is mirror screwed to a wall which can mean temporary as opposed to nailed, glued or soldered which are methods of joining two items that are widely accepted as permanent (you could find instances of this as a definition on the net if you needed to) .
The placement of junction boxes in areas that are accessible are allowed. Now taking this all one step farther we are allowed to place a junction box under a raised floor which is then covered by a tile (which can be up to 50 lbs or more) that is then screwed to pedestals usually in four corners then carpet tiles are glued to the tile. This does not violate the code so how can a mirror with screw clips do it.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

gardiner said:


> NEC 2008 314.29 reads "Boxes, conduit Bodies and handhold Enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building" it does not say building finish or building decorations it says building.
> The definition of Building talks of “structure” not “embellishments” and a mirror would be an “add on” that could be put anywhere at anytime.
> The next item is mirror screwed to a wall which can mean temporary as opposed to nailed, glued or soldered which are methods of joining two items that are widely accepted as permanent (you could find instances of this as a definition on the net if you needed to) .
> The placement of junction boxes in areas that are accessible are allowed. Now taking this all one step farther we are allowed to place a junction box under a raised floor which is then covered by a tile (which can be up to 50 lbs or more) that is then screwed to pedestals usually in four corners then carpet tiles are glued to the tile. This does not violate the code so how can a mirror with screw clips do it.


using your new logic:

cabinets are just screwed on, so junction boxes are fine behind cabinets.

drywall is just screwed on, so juction boxes behind drywall is fine.

do you see where this is going ?


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

I see where it is going but I also see where flaw is with the code. The code is written for lawyers which does tend to rule out common sense regarding the true meaning of a code which should be safety. You can take any argument for allowing or not allowing something in the code and go completely crazy one way or the other making the code ridiculous. As long as you know what your talking about and can put together a compelling argument one way or the other there are times when you can get away with a lot. As for treating cabinets as temporary as they are just screwed on I used that exact logic on a cabinet fastened by screws to a movable wall that had a junction box inside it. Under that condition the cabinet is a temporary thing, but then so is the wall.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

gardiner said:


> ......... As for treating cabinets as temporary as they are just screwed on I used that exact logic on a cabinet fastened by screws to a movable wall that had a junction box inside it. Under that condition the cabinet is a temporary thing, but then so is the wall.


So disconnect the plumbing, pull the sink out, remove the counter top and_ then_ unscrew the cabinet.........


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Since we are getting back to common sense. It's easy to rotate the clips on a mirror and look behind it. It's not easy to remove cabinets. Is it ideal, nope. Is this a remodel, yep. Do experienced electricians look behind mirrors and behind cabinet drawyers, yep.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Since we are getting back to common sense. It's easy to rotate the clips on a mirror and look behind it. It's not easy to remove cabinets. Is it ideal, nope. Is this a remodel, yep. Do experienced electricians look behind mirrors and behind cabinet drawyers, yep.


only when they have to. why do they have to ? cause some jerkwad did it or let it happen.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I see so much poor work that I just can't get excited about a j-box behind a mirror in a remodel. And the code probably even allows it. It's fun to tear into this though.


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## gardiner (Sep 25, 2007)

As I said "You can take any argument for allowing or not allowing something in the code and go completely crazy one way or the other making the code ridiculous. " and I am sure there are people viewing and possibly even using this forum that just love to do that. The logic works when common sense is employed, now I do realize the phrase "common sense" may be foreign to some and I have seen too many times people trying unsuccessfully to be the “devils advocate” or “sh** disturber” in regards to the forums


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I, personally, don't mind taking down a mirror. But I fault the guy who let that happen, and would not stick a jbox behind a mirror. HOWEVER, the last thing I want is for guys that work for me to be taking down mirrors, OR ANY OTHER BUILDING FINISH, because, for one, I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR BROKEN MIRRORS OR ANY OTHER BULL**** that they shouldn't have to be taking down anyway. I'm not even going to look at this BS thread again, because the idiot that hides stuff like this behind mirrors and such should be the one paying for the poor idiots that have to come behind him and end up paying for them, because they cracked, or got scratched, or whatever.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

LOL! Comon, part of the job is being a easter egg hunter.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I think the mirror itself probably decides the code compliance. I have a 4' x 5' mirror above my bathroom sink. You'd be really hard pressed to convince me that anything behind that is "accessible." By that logic, everything behind wood-paneling in a den would also be accessible, because I could remove each of those in the same amount of time.



nitro71 said:


> LOL! Comon, part of the job is being a easter egg hunter.


No argument, but they have the option of not hiding the Easter egg, so why would you want to?

There have been a couple good, cheap, code compliant solutions offered to avoid splicing behind the mirror, I think doing it now would just be sheer laziness.

-John


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