# Help with troubleshoot



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I have a heater that is rated 24amp. 

I ran 10/2 to the heater with a Siemens GFCI 240V/30A OCPD. 

The heater has worked fine for 2 years, since i installed it. 

It now trips after 10-15 min run time. Everything has been tested and inspected…checks out good.

Our draw is 25.7 amps, could this load cause a GFCI breaker rated for 30amp to trip as it’s over the 80% mark? 

We ran the heat with amp probes attached for full 15 minutes before the trip, never above 25.7A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Bet you have a heating element support which is breaking down. Needs the heat to cause the grd fault


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Any way to Meg this without frying any electronic components?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Its probably going to be a weak breaker as the bi-metallic strip has a memory from constantly being bent. If its sandwiched between 2 other breakers pulling a load its also probably heat soaked so the strip is bending more than it should for the load.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

These are Bromic radiant units each is dedicated. They run through smart relays that enable remote functions. 

We swapped out the elements, changed the breakers, checked all connections. 

The data has been sent to Bromic, but I’m trying to rule out all potential electrical issues which it seems I have or am close.

I did not Meg them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

We tested them under a regular breaker, no trip, but breaker was pretty warm. 

Regardless of heat never over 25.7A

This is our second troubleshoot trip on them. 

Bromic had us change elements and reset the system out of a potential impulse setting. 

The breakers are stacked so we shifted them around. 

Still no fix, so we ran all our checks once more. No solution. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I'd say the breaker is doing its job and the heating unit is faulty. My reasoning is that this sounds just like when a hot tub trips after 10 minutes, right when the board calls for heat from a faulty heating element. Current flows fine until the problem equipment energizes.

There's no way to tell from my couch, though.


----------



## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

Any internal conductors running behind the radiant deflection plate.? Insulation breaking down?

Element cold zone distortion from element-expansion when heated. Causing GF.?


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

CAUSA said:


> Any internal conductors running behind the radiant deflection plate.? Insulation breaking down?
> 
> Element cold zone distortion from element-expansion when heated. Causing GF.?


No conductors damaged, they just run at the ends of the sockets than to the factory junction. 
Elements are brand new. They’ve worked for over a year just fine under the current setup. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Put up a 40/50/60 amp spa gfci breaker in its own panel, fed by a brand new 30a breaker to replace the original 30a gfci breaker. Run heater- if gfci trips it’s a GF. If the 30a trips it’s not a GF it’s an overload or sporadic dead short.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

LGLS said:


> Put up a 40/50/60 amp spa gfci breaker in its own panel, fed by a brand new 30a breaker to replace the original 30a gfci breaker. Run heater- if gfci trips it’s a GF. If the 30a trips it’s not a GF it’s an overload or sporadic dead short.


We’ve already tested a non-gfci 30 amp, no trip. We had probes set up on the conductors and rulled out overload. 

Mind you this started happening on 2 dedicated units, dedicated relays under a pergola at the same damn time. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

It’s not the breaker a normal 30a breaker would carry 40 amps for a hour before it trips anyway with the inverse time constant trip curve it’s a fault


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

So you changed the element, both? That means it not the element, probably. So look at the rest of the circuit. What else has the ability to leak current to ground.


----------



## nickelec (Sep 29, 2015)

Why is this heater on a GFCI breaker it installed in a location that requires GFI protection?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

WronGun said:


> We’ve already tested a non-gfci 30 amp, no trip. We had probes set up on the conductors and rulled out overload.
> 
> Mind you this started happening on 2 dedicated units, dedicated relays under a pergola at the same damn time.
> 
> ...


They always run simultaneously? The client did something and aren’t fessing up- like washed down the heaters,


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nickelec said:


> Why is this heater on a GFCI breaker it installed in a location that requires GFI protection?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


They are mounted to a pergola outside. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

As suggested, isolate and Megger. And measure resistance of those heaters.

A heater element is as simple as it gets. It’s a pure resistance. So Ohms Law should tell you exactly how much it should draw. The Megger test should tell you if you have any ground faults in the heating element. We use this combination of two tests all the time on heaters in motors.

Otherwise it’s in the electronics. You CAN use some Meggers. Just need an electronic one that goes down to the 250 or 125 V range. Don’t try to use 500-1000 V on the electronics! Since you changed everything else unless the heating element is touching something somewhere there’s nothing else.

The breaker may indeed be over the 80% mark and Siemens breakers are notoriously more touchy about this in a loaded panel. But don’t forget duty cycle. If the heater cycles on and off and that’s what heaters normally do then the average is why 80% or 30 A is plenty. Or 24 A and you are just squeaking by there. If someone raised the thermostat or it’s broken and the heater is running 100% or more than last year, there might also be an obvious reason why it is tripping intermittently or after a very long time.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Is there a mechanical timer built in?


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Is there a mechanical timer built in?


No timer, electronic relays and hand held remotes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

WronGun said:


> No timer, electronic relays and hand held remotes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The built in relays might be where the teeny fault is coming from.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

And if you need a megger, come borrow mine, it’ll do the low end at 100v all the way up to 1000v. May answer some questions. Get one, if you don’t already, mine has a bunch of other test features so it’s a back up VOM too so it’s more useful.


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Where is the relay board getting its power from?

Is the relay board inside or outside. Have you looked behind the board to see if a frog/ants are living in the gap.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

gpop said:


> Where is the relay board getting its power from?
> 
> Is the relay board inside or outside. Have you looked behind the board to see if a frog/ants are living in the gap.


Everything is clean. The relays are outside. The manufacture is claiming we wired them wrong, lol . It’s total BS. Their engineered drawings have a flaw I brought to their attention. 


The relay shows 2 grounds going out to a heater that has 5 terminals. (2) hots per element and (1) ground. 

They told me i need 2 grounds that’s my problem after 2 yrs of working. They said 1 element isn’t grounded. It’s BS. 

The G terminals on the relay have continuity and we verified ground at both elements. 

I do lots of custom back yards. I’m actually a Bromic dealer and sell the systems. Not my first install. Their claim makes 0 sense. 

The diagram is incorrect, the heater has only 1 ground terminal and it’s linked to both elements. 

That’s been my day, back and forth with tech support. 















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> It’s not the breaker a normal 30a breaker would carry 40 amps for a hour before it trips


Do you seriously think a 30 amp breaker will carry 40 amps for an hour before it trips?


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Unhook the heaters and leave it on for a hour. If it doesn't trip that at least rules out the controller


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

How expensive is this heater? At what point do you get a new unit shipped out to swap and test?



WronGun said:


> No conductors damaged


Megger it to be certain unless you have x-ray vision or another method that you're keeping secret


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Do you seriously think a 30 amp breaker will carry 40 amps for an hour before it trips?


Yes. It could be 45 min but a hour was just a arbitrary number. Again look at the trip curve of the breaker (inverse time constants) unless it’s a smart chip breaker it’s not like it’s sitting there oh 30.1 amps time to trip. Same way if you cut a hot cable and short it I hit sometimes the breaker won’t trip it all depends. I also would like to site federal pacific breakers they messed up the trip curve and they won’t trip. Honestly it could probably hold 100 amps for 5 min.


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> It could be 45 min but a hour was just a arbitrary number. Again look at the trip curve of the breaker (inverse time constants)


I'm sorry but I still don't follow. What kind of circuit breaker doesn't trip when it exceeds the rated capacity? The standard trip curve for inverse time breakers is 20 minutes to trip at 80% load.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> I'm sorry but I still don't follow. What kind of circuit breaker doesn't trip when it exceeds the rated capacity? The standard trip curve for inverse time breakers is 20 minutes to trip at 80% load.


Lol all of them


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> Lol all of them


Can you post a link to trip curve that doesn't trip above rated capcity for an hour? Can you name a single breaker with the characteristics you're describing? I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Slay301 said:


> Lol all of them


So with your logic no body has ever came across a 20 amp breaker cooking @ 19 amps for lord knows how long. Maybe your reading the chart wrong and it’s 20 min to trip at 120% of the load. ???


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

The point to be made was the heater isn’t tripping on overload they don’t trip at 30.1 amps . For example last summer I was fixing a parking lot that was carrying 28 amps on a 20 amp breaker for 40 min or so before it tripped


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Slay301 said:


> Yes. It could be 45 min but a hour was just a arbitrary number. Again look at the trip curve of the breaker (inverse time constants) unless it’s a smart chip breaker it’s not like it’s sitting there oh 30.1 amps time to trip. Same way if you cut a hot cable and short it I hit sometimes the breaker won’t trip it all depends. I also would like to site federal pacific breakers they messed up the trip curve and they won’t trip. Honestly it could probably hold 100 amps for 5 min.


That is why FPE was Delisted. But they didn’t just mess up the trip curves. 60% of their 15 A breakers did not work. Sometimes the handle can be off but the breaker is still on. Even after delisting they continued making breakers with the same UL stickers for almost 20 years. And after they finally went under many of the spin-offs like Federal Pioneer and several similar names made the exact same breakers in the same factories with the same parts just different labels.

Here are the UL trio curves.



https://img.c3controls.com/image/upload/resources/c3controls-Understanding-Trip-Curves.pdf



So if the trip point is somewhere at 80% that’s 24 A. You said I think 25.7 A or 107%. 10,000 seconds is almost 3 hours and as you can see 3 hours is the point where the UL 489 breakers should trip in 3 hours, at around 113%. Still, clamp meters aren’t all that accurate so the real reading might be slightly more. If you rotate it so it tilts and move the wire around so that it centered the reading will go up. The highest reading is the most accurate. If you take resistance and measure voltage and calculate current it may be more accurate. That’s how we check in the shop but most metals decrease resistance as they heat up. Also it’s just a resistor. So if the voltage runs a little high, say 125 V, then the current runs high too (Ohms Law). So I can buy long term tripping as your issue. Check the meter though and check voltage and resistance too.

I have a hard time with the GFCI for this reason. GFCI has almost no intentional trip. It isn’t like an overload function in a breaker. If the differential current comparing the neutral to the hot exceeds 5 mA long enough that it verifies it’s a bonafide current, it trips. There is no trip curve and no delay. The UL limit is a fraction of 1 second, not hours. The only way for that to happen is if the heating element expands and touches something. That’s possible but seems unlikely.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

What’s the purpose of having a gfci OCPD on a 240v heater with no neutral ?

We found when we disconnect the neutral from the gfci breaker that only goes to the neutral bar we no longer have a trip, I just don’t know what the purpose is of the gfci if the neutral technically never leaves the panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'd put in another plug for the Supco 500 but after so many other plugs and that company still hasn't sent me so much as much as a single case of Red Bull for all my efforts on their behalf...........


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> I'd put in another plug for the Supco 500 but after so many other plugs and that company still hasn't sent me so much as much as a single case of Red Bull for all my efforts on their behalf...........


We megged everything with a fluke 1507, we even broke out our Flir thermal imagers. I can’t find a single problem. 

Disconnected the gfci neutral from the N bar, no trip, all other reading normal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Sigh........ gfi's.......... I hear you. Same chit on some hot tubs that have no need for a neutral out at the tub.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Sigh........ gfi's.......... I hear you. Same chit on some hot tubs that have no need for a neutral out at the tub.


But what is doing if there is no actual neutral going out ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Powers the electronics within the breaker? Not sure.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> Powers the electronics within the breaker? Not sure.


Yes and it supplies a N to 240V that may have 120V components. But none of this seems to be necessary if there is no load Neutral required. Maybe I’m missing something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

nrp3 said:


> Powers the electronics within the breaker? Not sure.


Just spitballing here, but I suspect this is what is going on. It no longer is capable of tripping because the electronics don't have power. 
GFCI breakers do not need a nuetral run to the load in order for them to work. They could still sense a ground fault based on the differential current on the two hot legs. It could sense a high resistance fault that the short circuit component of the breaker might miss.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Only that it may remove the gfci component from the equation when you disconnect it. Why it chose to be a problem long after you installed it is a good question. I have already run into trouble with a range on a gfci so I don’t know whether the problem is similar or not.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> Only that it may remove the gfci component from the equation when you disconnect it. Why it chose to be a problem long after you installed it is a good question. I have already run into trouble with a range on a gfci so I don’t know whether the problem is similar or not.


Well I’m hoping to get new relays sent to me from Bromic. That’s the only component that could be the issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Not all appliance controls need neutrals. Cooktops and AC's to mention just a few. But when you run that neutral all the way out there to the appliance from wherever you have the 2 pole gfi and it doesn't need a neutral, guess what? You just created a bleed off antenna via induction from the two or three hots........ In the 4-6 milliamp range........


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Eaton used to and may still have something in their instructions about distance between the breaker and the load which probably could affect any brand.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Maybe I’m missing something.


Yep


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Yep
> 
> View attachment 164734


Right but the neutral still needs to be connected to the neutral bar in the panel. 

But this is what’s causing my breaker to trip. The pigtail on the breaker just goes to the bar and nowhere else in this circuit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Right but the neutral still needs to be connected to the neutral bar in the panel.
> 
> But this is what’s *causing my breaker to trip*. The pigtail on the breaker just goes to the bar and nowhere else in this circuit.
> 
> ...


Did you remove the Line neutral or the Load Neutral ?


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Did you remove the Line neutral or the Load Neutral ?


Line neutral, there is no load neutral


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Line neutral, there is no load neutral


Maybe someone already said this, but that probably defeats the GFCI circuit !

It needs the neutral to power the GFCI circuitry.

*edit ... I see a couple already mentioned it.


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Maybe someone already said this, but that probably defeats the GFCI circuit !
> 
> It needs the neutral to power the GFCI circuitry.
> 
> *edit ... I see a couple already mentioned it.


I realize that, this was only troubleshooting as to find out where the trip was coming from.

The neutral pigtail off of the breaker was testing 105V to ground and would trip when connected to the bus bar. Instant trip. 

This also was happening only after when heaters were running for 15 minutes and were not, but there is no load side neutral so I’m wondering what’s causing this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

WronGun said:


> This also was happening only after when heaters were running for 15 minutes and were not, but there is no load side neutral so I’m wondering what’s causing this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the information you need. Something is expanding when it is heated up and faulting to ground. You just need to find it. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Forge Boyz said:


> This is the information you need. Something is expanding when it is heated up and faulting to ground. You just need to find it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


It seems to be something in the breaker, I need to talk to my techs because they told me they already tried new gfci breakers 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

WronGun said:


> It seems to be something in the breaker, I need to talk to my techs because they told me they already tried new gfci breakers
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are pretty hard to find…..


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

WronGun said:


> It seems to be something in the breaker, I need to talk to my techs because they told me they already tried new gfci breakers
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If they swapped breakers and it still trips its not the breaker.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Do you have thermal limit switches mounted near the heaters. Have they been tested or replaced?

Addition: This ticks all the right boxes as a possibility if the switch had a pin hole air leak.

Over years of heat cycling it would pull in moisture as it cools.
Its normally metal encased and screwed to the heater so its frame grounded.
After 15 minutes the switch could open and with a little moisture bridge line to ground.
Moisture would flash off before a standard ocp device would trip.


----------



## cbrunner1980 (9 mo ago)

The GFCI systems in these breakers are interesting. They measure the current on both legs, and detect an imbalance between the legs. It actually works from measuring the active and reactive current values, then comparing them. If the active and reactive current from one leg, does not equal the current of the other leg the system knows it has a leak of current to an outside source. These can be triggered by a number of situations.

1. A true ground fault (current to a conductor other than a power leg).
2. Eddy currents developed by conductors run in parallel from different breakers.
3. Transformer coupling harmonics (a phase angle change).
4. Non-linear power supply switching.

Given the method of failure you have described, I would take the following troubleshooting steps.
1. Measure the current on the ground wire. It should be zero (be sure to measure for milli-amps as well).
2. From what I have read, I am expecting you have two heaters running near each other, likely they are run in the same conduit? Try your measurements again with both heaters running at the same time, and individually. If you have one heater running, and the other not it is quite likely you will see an inductive load on the non-running heater. This load may be enough to trip the breaker.
3. As you have specified these are outdoor units, check the conformal coatings on the boards as well as on the connections. If the coatings have been damaged (or worse yet are not present) humidity in the circuit will also cause enough of an issue to trip it.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I say dump the customer and move on with your life........


----------



## greenpro (Feb 21, 2021)

WronGun said:


> I have a heater that is rated 24amp.
> 
> I ran 10/2 to the heater with a Siemens GFCI 240V/30A OCPD.
> 
> ...


The heat element has a current leak over 6 miliamps high enough to tripping the GFCI breaker but not the regular breaker because even with the leak you’re under 30 amps so definitely you have a faulty elements


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Did I mention his neighbor is Tom Brady? lol 

At least he was recently, not sure if he moved. 

We basically have a maintenance contract at this house, rather not dump. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wavelet8 (Jan 11, 2014)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Can you post a link to trip curve that doesn't trip above rated capcity for an hour? Can you name a single breaker with the characteristics you're describing? I'm genuinely curious.


I’ve seen Boeing aircraft or mil spec breakers have 1hour trip curves at 7.5 amp full load current levels. But, those breakers are for like 120/208 vac at 400 hz? For housing it’s strange but I’ll look around for some strange specialty applications on internet?


----------



## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Wavelet8 said:


> But, those breakers are for like 120/208 vac at 400 hz?


Sure, adjustable molded ciruit breakers exist but the person that started the thread is using a Siemens 30 map 240v GFCI.


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

WronGun said:


> What’s the purpose of having a gfci OCPD on a 240v heater with no neutral ?
> 
> We found when we disconnect the neutral from the gfci breaker that only goes to the neutral bar we no longer have a trip, I just don’t know what the purpose is of the gfci if the neutral technically never leaves the panel.
> 
> ...


It is picking up something from somewhere. On a true 240 V GFCI (no neutral) it just compares the two hots but since many circuits are mixed with 120 V controls it uses one CT with all 3 wires because with normal circuits in=out and if there is a ground fault, they won’t be zero.

If it’s that easy to “fix” why not just drop the neutral?


----------



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

paulengr said:


> It is picking up something from somewhere. On a true 240 V GFCI (no neutral) it just compares the two hots but since many circuits are mixed with 120 V controls it uses one CT with all 3 wires because with normal circuits in=out and if there is a ground fault, they won’t be zero.
> 
> If it’s that easy to “fix” why not just drop the neutral?


The relay has (1) 240V/30A feed

Power goes through the relay and breaks off into (2) 240V/20A loads to each tungsten in the unit. 

We have 2 setups like this. 

I used a Flir I7 to see if there were any hot spots in the circuitry, no abnormalities. I thermal imaged pretty much everything and visualized no abnormal hot spots. There’s a lot of circuitry within the controller to make these remote. 

I megged all lines at a 100V only, all normal. 

What’s even more odd, is these are 2 completely isolated heaters, separate feeds, separate controllers, etc. They both create a trip. 

1 runs for 15 minutes and trips, then won’t reset. 

The other runs longer, but then trips, but does reset after the trip. 

Both never go over 25 amp, both function normally when not gfci protected at the panel. 

Has anyone ever tested the neutral pigtail against ground on a 240V gfci breaker ? After our trip we took the N pigtail off the neutral bar and tested it against ground and got 105V. This was creating and instant trip when connected back to the N bar. 

Why would the Neutral pigtail test 105v against ground on a 240v gfci breaker. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gpop (May 14, 2018)

WronGun said:


> Why would the Neutral pigtail test 105v against ground on a 240v gfci breaker.



Like others have pointed out it sounds like the electronics are 120v so 105v would be around the reading you would expect. As they make 120 and 240v breakers its no surprise to find the electronics on 120 as that would save manufacturing costs. 

You could test it by putting a test light between the load side and ground as that would be seen as a leak.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I like my high end customers down in MA. Went to Brookline a couple of times this week. Nice area.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paulengr said:


> It is picking up something from somewhere. On a true 240 V GFCI (no neutral) it just compares the two hots but since many circuits are mixed with 120 V controls it uses one CT with all 3 wires because with normal circuits in=out and if there is a ground fault, they won’t be zero.
> 
> If it’s that easy to “fix” why not just drop the neutral?


@WronGun

Would a GFCI breaker work w/o a neutral? Every pool pump I see has its gfci neutral connected even though it never leaves the panel.

WrongGun, is there any new wireless router or cell tower or cordless phone base station or broadband “M-cell” cellular booster activated nearby lately? Baby monitor? Replace any dimmers or fit any non fcc approved LEDs in proximity lately?
I recall keying the Nextel PTT in close proximity to a FACP in Rockefeller Center caused the system to reset/ trouble/ alarm.

In Europe, they are GFCI breakers that don’t trip until there is 30 Milliamps of leakage… Perhaps 5 mA is just too darn sensitive for a complex piece of electronic equipment that is installed outdoors, and subject to wild temperature and humidity Swings?


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

paulengr said:


> It is picking up something from somewhere. On a true 240 V GFCI (no neutral) it just compares the two hots but since many circuits are mixed with 120 V controls it uses one CT with all 3 wires because with normal circuits in=out and if there is a ground fault, they won’t be zero.
> 
> If it’s that easy to “fix” why not just drop the neutral?


----------

