# Heated floor wire repair



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Ive got to go look at a repair on a cut wire for a heated bathroom floor. Tile guy says one of his crew accidentally cut the wiring that gets covered in grout with a grinder. He says he ordered a splice kit from the manufacturer that is specifically for this kind of heated floor kit, and its UL listed for being grouted over.

Has anyone made one of these repairs before? Trying to get an idea of what's involved.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Bump....


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Ive got to go look at a repair on a cut wire for a heated bathroom floor. Tile guy says one of his crew accidentally cut the wiring that gets covered in grout with a grinder. He says he ordered a splice kit from the manufacturer that is specifically for this kind of heated floor kit, and its UL listed for being grouted over.
> 
> Has anyone made one of these repairs before? Trying to get an idea of what's involved.


I have done it a couple times. The kit is really just a butt splice with a shrink sleeve. Really no big deal if you know where the break is.
The trouble comes when the tile guys won't take the blame and act like they no nothing. Either way it sucks for the customer because there is no way it is going to be as good as new.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I tried the Warm Tiles kit that you rent, small thumper and repair kits. I used a thermal imager to find the problem. Even that was tough. By the time I actually found a fault, the megger readings in one direction were still not great anyway. Patching it back together was a pain. Tiny wires like doing surgery. It failed again in a month or so. Tore it all out and did a new one, this time another brand. Trying to get the tile guy to respect the fact that running over the newly laid cables with a cast iron stove on a dolly would lead to a failure was tough. The previous version was out of warranty anyway. So far so good. I don't care to tackle a repair again. Using one of those alarms they sell isn't a bad way to go.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I have done it a couple times. The kit is really just a butt splice with a shrink sleeve. Really no big deal if you know where the break is.
> The trouble comes when the tile guys won't take the blame and act like they no nothing. Either way it sucks for the customer because there is no way it is going to be as good as new.





nrp3 said:


> I tried the Warm Tiles kit that you rent, small thumper and repair kits. I used a thermal imager to find the problem. Even that was tough. By the time I actually found a fault, the megger readings in one direction were still not great anyway. Patching it back together was a pain. Tiny wires like doing surgery. It failed again in a month or so. Tore it all out and did a new one, this time another brand. Trying to get the tile guy to respect the fact that running over the newly laid cables with a cast iron stove on a dolly would lead to a failure was tough. The previous version was out of warranty anyway. So far so good. I don't care to tackle a repair again. Using one of those alarms they sell isn't a bad way to go.


Its done. Not what I would call a top notch repair kit, but I was the only kit the manufacturer sold for their product. Very tedious, and we had to rig up some aluminum foil on the end of the heat gun so it would make a precise heat wave.

The tile guy had these alarms that would hook up to the heating wires and if anything got cut or lost continuity, it would go into alarm. If everything was correct you would get a green light. Pretty nice tool to have if you messed with these alot, it made me feel a little better about that splice.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

*UPDATE*

Was back out there today, the breaker is not holding anymore. There were 2 lines installed, One of the lines will trip the breaker, the other works fine. Both lines were working for about 2 1/2 days. It "appears" (and I say this with caution) that the line I repaired is not the one that's causing the problems. This repair was done close to a week and a half ago.

Soooo........I spoke for close to 45 minutes with the manufacturer today, they went over everything I did during the repair and gave me a very detailed direction to take an OHM reading that would ensure if the line was still good and It checked out fine, well within the tolerance. He then followed up by stressing that the system, when spliced, needed to sit at least 2-3 weeks to allow the grout and mortar to cure & dry otherwise we may have problems with nuisance tripping. This part has not been followed, the HO turned the system on within 7 - 9 days later.

After checking everything two and three times over, the tile guy and I finally convinced the HO that we would wait out the next 2 weeks and see if all the moisture in the floor would eventually dry out.

I know this is a long post, but Im looking for anything that might help me out here. I'm not on the hook for this UNLESS it turns out to be my splice that was bad. It doesn't look like that's the case, and it checked out fine with the loudmouth alarm before I left the job in the first place. Like I said, everything else checks out fine with what the man. rep is telling us, but its still tripping the breaker. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Curious, did the repair kit have dual wall shrink wrap? (Glue inside?)


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

yea basically .....your effed....


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## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

I have repaired tons of floor heat. I sub for a floor heat manufacture. Not sure what manufacture you are using but it's all repairable. Sounds like there is another break or your splice failed. You are going to need a highpot and an ir camera or thermal sheets and a power supply, To find out where the breaks are that is about the only way you will find it. It can be fixed just need right equipment.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

*?*

What's a thermal sheet?


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## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

http://m.edmundoptics.com/testing-t...erature-sensitive-liquid-crystal-sheets/72375


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

why did you ever get involved with this nightmare?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Fredman said:


> Curious, did the repair kit have dual wall shrink wrap? (Glue inside?)


Im not 100% clear on what dual wall shrink wrap is . The heat shrink did have sealing glue on the inside. It seemed efficient & water proof, if thats what your getting at.


captkirk said:


> yea basically .....your effed....


Lets hope not. 


ElectricZombie said:


> I have repaired tons of floor heat. I sub for a floor heat manufacture. Not sure what manufacture you are using but it's all repairable. Sounds like there is another break or your splice failed. You are going to need a highpot and an ir camera or thermal sheets and a power supply, To find out where the breaks are that is about the only way you will find it. It can be fixed just need right equipment.


Ok. Your definitely the guy I need to talk to here. The product is Suntouch.

I had nothing to do with this installation at all, other than doing the repair splice for the tile guy. After the repair, I hooked the loudmouth up and got a green light. No problems were even present with the line until a few days after they started using the floor heat. Is it common for a splice to go bad so quickly? I would've though if the splice didn't take we would have known immediately!??! 

We are going to wait 2 weeks to make sure the grout has completely cured, before we go any further. Depending on the outcome, I may be bothering you in the near future for some more advice. :laughing:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Lep said:


> why did you ever get involved with this nightmare?


The same reason anyone gets involved in any type of work, to make some money.


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## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

No the splice should never fail if done right. My guess is there is another break in the line also the loudmouths are not 100% especially if there is a nick in there wire those wont show up til you apply power to it and the wire heats up and expands that's when it fails. Also it won't matter if the grout is wet or not I am guessing it will still be bad when it dries. Only reason I tell them to leave off is so the thinset and grout don't dry to fast.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> The same reason anyone gets involved in any type of work, to make some money.


sometimes is crappy jobs you just don't want to deal with , hope you make lots of m:noney


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

*ANOTHER UPDATE* *SORRY, BUT IT'S LONG*

Ok, this job has been the re-occurring problem child. Customer waiting 2 weeks and is still having problems with one of the heating lines tripping the GFI. So, I went back today with the tile guy and we spoke directly with the manufacturing rep during the whole thing. He was cool and calm and said this was fairly common. Here is what he told us to do..

His troubleshooting procedure:
-take it off GFI protection, bypass t-stat, wire bad line straight to breaker. Power it up.
-take amp reading on both legs, AND on ground wire. (Our readings were good)
-turn off after 5 minutes, and take ohm reading between legs and each leg to ground. (Readings were good)
-repeat procedure for 10 min, then 15, then 20. Make sure all the readings were good with manufacturers specs.

Throughout this while thing the breaker held. We then put it back on the GFI t-stat and turned it on......it worked! But it was very slow to start feeling heat through the tile. Manufacturer rep assured us that this was moisture that had got into the line and wiring it straight to the breaker had allowed it to dry out the moisture without having nuisance GFI tripping during this procedure. Seems like a long stretch but it worked! 

After about 45 min, lots of laughs & smiles & handshakes, it seemed everything was good to go and I headed out......10 minutes down the road and my phone rings, it just tripped...

Soooooo, I head back and we reset the GFI and try it again. This time it holds for a little over an hour before it trips. I had been here for around 5 hrs at this point, so I reset the GFI and told them to keep me up with the progress. 

Eventually, it tripped again, but it seemed to be holding longer. They talked with the rep some more and he assured everyone to keep running this line like this would get rid of the remaining moisture. Im definitely hopeful, we went from not being able to turn this thing on for two seconds, to running it for over an hour. Well see .


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Hopefully someone will find this helpful down the road. 

I would not of though of trying to get rid of any moisture this way, but it worked and it seems like this procedure just needs to continue long enough to get it all out, and hopefully their heated floor system will be working correctly soon.

Crazy stuff man. I definitely learned something new today.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Hopefully someone will find this helpful down the road.
> 
> I would not of though of trying to get rid of any moisture this way, but it worked and it seems like this procedure just needs to continue long enough to get it all out, and hopefully their heated floor system will be working correctly soon.
> 
> Crazy stuff man. I definitely learned something new today.


There is more to this than the tile guy told you.
If the splice kit had glue in it, then moisture didn't get in from that point. It's quite obvious that the cable jacket has been damaged in at least one other place.
While the Loudmouth alarm and OHM meter are great, nothing beats a megohmmeter for a definitive test. The install instructions,starting from about 3 years ago, include that as part of the testing and recording requirements.
I record every step of the way when I do the installs. And most importantly, I will not do an install, until the tile guy is ready to cover the wires. That way, when I leave, any damage will be by the tile guy and not by some bozo walking across the cables, dragging his feet, and damaging the install.
As a point of interest, here in Canada, the thermostats have the GFCI protection built into them.
I have found that in floor heating is a really good money maker.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

What the heck are these guys doing that they are ruining the floor heat? In all the years I have done it only once had they damaged the wire. It was not an easy fix as the wires were hard to strip for some reason. Don't remember it well as it was a long time ago.

On another note. Areas around here are just now requiring the floor heat to get inspected. No one every called for inspections on these before but you better check with your area. I know Durham, NC is requiring it and our state guy Ron wants it inspected.


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## the-apprentice (Jun 11, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Ive got to go look at a repair on a cut wire for a heated bathroom floor. Tile guy says one of his crew accidentally cut the wiring that gets covered in grout with a grinder. He says he ordered a splice kit from the manufacturer that is specifically for this kind of heated floor kit, and its UL listed for being grouted over.
> 
> Has anyone made one of these repairs before? Trying to get an idea of what's involved.


my old boss used to do nu-heat repairs all the time. and nu heat sent him a kit. 

essentially used this contraption that was pretty much a meggar but in some wierd suitcase . you would hit it a couple times it would create a hotspot that you could see through the tiles with an IR camera. (because the conductor is inside a steel mesh) then once you found that hotspot with the IR camera you can break up the tile. cut and strip the wire back. and crimp it back together with heat shrink it. The nu-heat rep would give him a repair kit and it came with everything to do repairs with it.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What the heck are these guys doing that they are ruining the floor heat? In all the years I have done it only once had they damaged the wire. It was not an easy fix as the wires were hard to strip for some reason. Don't remember it well as it was a long time ago.


Some of the tile guys won't use a layer of self leveler. They use their notched trowels to spread the butter directly on the floor and nick the cables. That's not according to the installation instructions, but it saves material and time.
I had one guy, doing an install on a concrete floor, absolutely destroy the wires. That decision cost him a whole pile more than what he saved on self leveler
Another problem, some of the tile guys think they can install the cables, and don't have the tools/expertize to do it properly. At least I have a couple of tile installers, who get me to supply and install for them. We've done so many together, our timing is such that, as I'm doing the final checks, they are ready to pour the leveler. No damage:thumbsup: 


Basic precautions must nevertheless be taken in order to avoid damaging the 
cable during installation. 
Please follow these recommendations when applying mortar:
•
Never hit the trowel on the floor to remove excess mortar. 
The cables could be severely damaged.
•
Use a sponge or damp cloth to remove surplus cement 
adhesive from between the tiles. Do not use a knife or the 
edge of your trowel as this could damage the cables.
•
Do not allow anyone to walk across the tiles until the work 
has been finished.

SYSTEM ACTIVATION
Do not activate the system immediately after applying the mortar or self-
levelling underlayment. Wait until the curing period recommended by the 
manufacturer has ended (generally 28 days): this waiting period is essential to 
ensure that the mortar or self-levelling underlayment has dried


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here is what we do. I get the tile guys to put a 1/2" wonderboard around the perimeter 3" wide. In the center area where the wire is going to be installed I have them use 1/4" board. Certainly if they use their trowels they are looking for trouble. I guess the guys I have been working with have done it enough times.

BTW, imo a licensed electrician should be installing the system not a tile guy.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I used to try to sell the crap out of this. Not anymore. Now I make the tile guy or homeowner by it. When the tile guy buys it he takes a thousand percent better care of it. He knows he is solely responsible for it. 
Yes I could make good money selling it but one screwed up job negates all of it.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

BTW, thanks to sbrn and electric zombie for the help on this one.

These are the type of jobs where if I had any idea what would be involved when i got the call for this repair, I doubt I would've taken it on.

I'm sure glad the manufacturer rep knew what to do, this was a pretty crazy situation.


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## ElectricZombie (Sep 21, 2012)

I have had a lot of tile guys and electrician tell me that they had the loudmouth on the whole time and that all the readings were good throughout the whole install. But when they go to turn it on it trips the GFCI. And I have personally have taking OHM reading and there were fine. But if there is a fine nick in the wire and its not completely cut then the readings will be fine. Until you apply power to it. I am going to guess that there will be problems with it down the road. I understand the moisture part but I have never heard of fixing it like that. Also if moisture is in the wire then there is a nick thats allowing it to ground out and trip the GFCI. So I am guessing there is another break/nick in the wire. By bypassing the GFCI it allows the wire to heat up causing it to expand and clear the short. But you will always have that expanding and contracting and it will cause it to trip sooner or later if there is another break/nick. So hopefully it holds but I am not very optimistic on it. Keep us updated.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

ElectricZombie said:


> I have had a lot of tile guys and electrician tell me that they had the loudmouth on the whole time and that all the readings were good throughout the whole install. But when they go to turn it on it trips the GFCI. And I have personally have taking OHM reading and there were fine. But if there is a fine nick in the wire and its not completely cut then the readings will be fine. Until you apply power to it. I am going to guess that there will be problems with it down the road. I understand the moisture part but I have never heard of fixing it like that. Also if moisture is in the wire then there is a nick thats allowing it to ground out and trip the GFCI. So I am guessing there is another break/nick in the wire. By bypassing the GFCI it allows the wire to heat up causing it to expand and clear the short. But you will always have that expanding and contracting and it will cause it to trip sooner or later if there is another break/nick. So hopefully it holds but I am not very optimistic on it. Keep us updated.


Well....since you put it that way...I guess the good news here is I have no warranty on this crazy mess. REPAIR WAS MADE AS IS! :jester:


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Hopefully someone will find this helpful down the road.
> 
> I would not of though of trying to get rid of any moisture this way, but it worked and it seems like this procedure just needs to continue long enough to get it all out, and hopefully their heated floor system will be working correctly soon.
> 
> Crazy stuff man. I definitely learned something new today.



I have been installing these several times a month and yet to have a problem. :thumbsup: 

When I do, I will be glad Ive read this thread certainly! Thanks for sharing.


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## Shock-Therapy (Oct 4, 2013)

With Flextherm you are required to take and record the resistance 3 times. An initial, once laid out, then after the flooring is done. I actually for my own piece of mind try to meter it immediately after the tile guys are done with the thinset and after they are finished grouting. That would be a wet and dry reading as well as the out of box and the once laid out reading.


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## memobug (Feb 28, 2018)

Thank you! It's five years since your post, but the suggestion was incredibly helpful. I had a fairly high resistance path from both line and neutral to ground, something like 30K ohms, but enough to trigger the 3-6mA limit ground fault. I followed the suggestions and bypassed the thermostat and baked it for an hour (sufficient to get a 9 degree F rise from 61 to 70 degrees). I shut off the power and remeasured, now with megaohm resistance to ground. It was hard to tell exactly how high, as it was behaving somewhat capacitively when the probes were attached, running up fast from 200k to infinity. 

I reattached the GCFI and it ran overnight with no further problems. 



MHElectric said:


> Hopefully someone will find this helpful down the road.
> 
> I would not of though of trying to get rid of any moisture this way, but it worked and it seems like this procedure just needs to continue long enough to get it all out, and hopefully their heated floor system will be working correctly soon.
> 
> Crazy stuff man. I definitely learned something new today.


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