# Replaced some HPS parking lot lights with LED's today



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> This morning was cold and foggy at 5 am but it turned into an awesome 70 degree and sunny day. We did 6 30' pole replacements with 4 heads per pole. Gonna check it out tomorrow night.
> 
> Anyway on with the pics.
> 
> ...


Good stuff buddy.....:thumbup::thumbup:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

nice job, how much where the fixtures a piece?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I just cringe when I see shoeboxes directly on the asphalt like that.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Sure is nice having the material handler on the end of the boom, huh?


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Got to see the pics twice! Thanks Harry.
.
.
.
Nice truck zwo :thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I will take a peice of cardboard box or plywood and let the shoebox luminarie sit on instead of driectally on the asphalt.

There is a reason why I do that due some luminaire manufacter they get smart with that. 

Any dings or other items they will not cover the warranty on that while you are putting the luminaire together.

Second thing is how many watts that lumiaire is at ?


Merci,
Marc


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*100*

looks like 3-100's to me ? ? 

Hope you don't have any problems over 90F with droop were that's at ...:jester:


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Sure is nice having the material handler on the end of the boom, huh?


Yeah, there were 4 of us on site. 2 guys installing and removing fixtures and 2 guys building the heads on the poles. It worked out pretty good.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> I will take a peice of cardboard box or plywood and let the shoebox luminarie sit on instead of driectally on the asphalt.
> 
> There is a reason why I do that due some luminaire manufacter they get smart with that.
> 
> ...


I will get the exact specs but each cluster is 98 watts and has a dip switch that can change it to use 98, 75, or 45 watts depending on the brightness you need. Like I said I need to get full specs on lumens but I will be going up one night with my light meter to see candlepower.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I changed out a bunch of poles in a parking lot last year, I brought a heavy duty sawhorse to lay them down on instead of setting them directly on the ground. Then the heads hang there and it's easy enough to work on.


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

erics37 said:


> I changed out a bunch of poles in a parking lot last year, I brought a heavy duty sawhorse to lay them down on instead of setting them directly on the ground. Then the heads hang there and it's easy enough to work on.


I use two 6' ladders with a board through the rungs and set the pole on that.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I just cringe when I see shoeboxes directly on the asphalt like that.


It's tough to see but there is about a half inch of clearance down there. See how the pole is straight, we assembled the lights on our ramp truck, propped the head up and drove the light to it's position. The heads never made contact and the pole was kept wrapped whee it needed to be until lifting it.

There is a small towel under the exposed pole in this pic.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

WellI got impatient so I went up there tonight. We only did the six large poles and are waiting to see if the owner wants to proceed with the shorter two head poles.

I was pleased with the results


The difference between LED and HPS











Directly under the LED











Directly under the HPS


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Was the old HPS were at 400 watts or what ?

Let me say one word " Cet étonnant " ( that amazing )

That new LED is on high setting ?

Merci.,
Marc


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Slightly over 2x the light.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Was the old HPS were at 400 watts or what ?
> 
> Let me say one word " Cet étonnant " ( that amazing )
> 
> ...


Yes, 400W HPS. Also remember the smaller poles with HPS are 10 feet lower.

And this was the high setting.


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

I took a look on the way in today. Your lights look good. Nice and bright


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Sparky208 said:


> I took a look on the way in today. Your lights look good. Nice and bright


Thanks Sparky, they really need to replace the rest of the HPS lights and could actually use a few more poles. That lot has always been dark...


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## Sparky208 (Feb 25, 2011)

zwodubber said:


> Thanks Sparky, they really need to replace the rest of the HPS lights and could actually use a few more poles. That lot has always been dark...


You can really see how dark around the HPS fixtures it looks. I love the LEDs just because how little they draw. I installed some prototype LEDs a few years ago down in Lurton cafeteria, with the such little draw you could put 98 fixtures on one cir and they were just as bright as the old fixtures I took out. But the guy told me the LED drivers were 500$ each


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Did you put an amp meter on the pole before and after?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

What did the pole light setup cost-- just cost of the light & pole? If you don't feel comfortable saying, I understand.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What did the pole light setup cost-- just cost of the light & pole? If you don't feel comfortable saying, I understand.


I honestly am not sure, I am interested in finding out myself. We just did the install for a company that sells the LED's and has contracted us for the installations in this area.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Well, this is not a simple HPS vs LED. To be fair, the comparison needs to be between the most advanced HPS lamp-ballast combo in a cutting edge luminaire. 

The light meter also needs to a properly spectrum corrected type (often cost over $1,000) otherwise the response curve does not closely follow that of our eyes and cause substantial over-reading with some type of light. The basic ones are calibrated for sunlight or tungsten filament. 

This was some years back, but LEDs didn't deliver the same performance. 

Effective power consumption needs to be measured with a watt-meter, not an ammeter which ignores power factor. 
The output should be checked about a year after install. Brand new elements against aging HPS lamps is not a fair comparison. There is a great variation between models, but some LEDs decay more than metal halides. 

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f8/my-impression-led-street-light-field-visit-photos-16716/


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Slightly over 2x the light.


Trouble is the spread sucks, so you get bright spots under the LEDs and dark spots all over.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> Well, this is not a simple HPS vs LED. To be fair, the comparison needs to be between the most advanced HPS lamp-ballast combo in a cutting edge luminaire.
> 
> The light meter also needs to a properly spectrum corrected type (often cost over $1,000) otherwise the response curve does not closely follow that of our eyes and cause substantial over-reading with some type of light. The basic ones are calibrated for sunlight or tungsten filament.
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from as far as testing, but this was not a test it was an install. The company who sold the project was responsible for providing the correct information to the customer.

That being said I do plan on stopping in to check on the readings periodically to be sure the led's are not decaying in light with the same meter and check at the panel with our pq meters. My personal clamp meter does kW, pf, kvar, etc... so I can check at any time.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Was the old HPS were at 400 watts or what ?
> 
> Let me say one word " Cet étonnant " ( that amazing )
> 
> ...


Why do you insist on saying stuff in French, only to translate it to English?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Dennis: I am installing 4 lithonia led shoebox fixtures with 4 new 35' poles. they are replacing old 250 watt hps fixtures. 2K for each fixture plus $1100 for each pole.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Trouble is the spread sucks, so you get bright spots under the LEDs and dark spots all over.


 I was just looking at some new LED street lighting last night and noticed the exact opposite: I don't know what the fixture design is but they have a very even spread, much more so than the existing HPS. The lighting is almost perfectly uniform all the way down the street.

I was impressed. I'll grab pictures next time I'm down there. 

-John


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Big John said:


> I was just looking at some new LED street lighting last night and noticed the exact opposite: I don't know what the fixture design is but they have a very even spread, much more so than the existing HPS. The lighting is almost perfectly uniform all the way down the street.
> 
> I was impressed. I'll grab pictures next time I'm down there.
> 
> -John


I agree with you on the spread. The ones we installed were built at specific angles for the height and distance between poles (had to compensate for hps poles that weren't replaced) but the fact that you can adjust them does help


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

jza said:


> Why do you insist on saying stuff in French, only to translate it to English?


It make easier for Engish speaking peoples understand more clear what that word is refering to in case they try to use the goggle translater or other type and it will not always match the word.

Note: I know there is couple members in this fourm can read in French so I can reply in French if I have to.

Merci,
Marc


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Please put me on the list of people wanting to know more about the LED shoebox.

Care to pm me the address, I'd love to see it and measure it for myself.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> It make easier for Engish speaking peoples understand more clear what that word is refering to in case they try to use the goggle translater or other type and it will not always match the word.
> 
> Note: I know there is couple members in this fourm can read in French so I can reply in French if I have to.
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is there's no need to even post it in French. Just post it in English.


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## stuiec (Sep 25, 2010)

jza said:


> What I'm saying is there's no need to even post it in French. Just post it in English.


 
Why do you even care? Is it so odious a chore to read a few extra words?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> I see where you are coming from as far as testing, but this was not a test it was an install. The company who sold the project was responsible for providing the correct information to the customer.
> 
> That being said I do plan on stopping in to check on the readings periodically to be sure the led's are not decaying in light with the same meter and check at the panel with our pq meters. My personal clamp meter does kW, pf, kvar, etc... so I can check at any time.


Since the outcome is the same regardless of who does the install if its done correctly, so as you said, it doesn't really matter for the installer. 

LED sales people are well known for exaggerating numbers or using non-conventional metrics to make the sales or present ROI assuming money has no time value. 

It's not uncommon for them to try to sell LEDs that significantly outperforms per accepted metric by saying something like "equivalent output to HPS (10,000 lumen vs 9,500 lumen scotopic and ours have 2.6 S/P ratio) meaning that its only putting out about 3,600 real lumens).


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

stuiec said:


> Why do you even care? Is it so odious a chore to read a few extra words?


Jza and I live in a place where normal people mix English and French in the same sentence and only repeat themselves in each if they're running for office or flying an aeroplane.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

And now that I look at your profile it's possible that you might, too! Heh.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

stuiec said:


> Why do you even care? Is it so odious a chore to read a few extra words?


No je trouvee just ca drole (I just find it funny) that he thinks it's cool or something.



cguillas said:


> Jza and I live in a place where normal people mix English and French in the same sentence and only repeat themselves in each if they're running for office or flying an aeroplane.


Ya, I'm from Ottawa too.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Electric_Light said:


> Since the outcome is the same regardless of who does the install if its done correctly, so as you said, it doesn't really matter for the installer.
> 
> LED sales people are well known for exaggerating numbers or using non-conventional metrics to make the sales or present ROI assuming money has no time value.
> 
> It's not uncommon for them to try to sell LEDs that significantly outperforms per accepted metric by saying something like "equivalent output to HPS (10,000 lumen vs 9,500 lumen scotopic and ours have 2.6 S/P ratio) meaning that its only putting out about 3,600 real lumens).


 
Sales people cooking the numbers to make a sale? :blink::no:You are making that up.:laughing::laughing:

I have seen this with the Harmonic mitigators sales forces, PQ, and on and on.....


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

brian john said:


> Sales people cooking the numbers to make a sale? :blink::no:You are making that up.:laughing::laughing:
> 
> I have seen this with the Harmonic mitigators sales forces, PQ, and on and on.....


No, those guys would never lie. Look, you can see the current dropping, that means you are saving money :laughing:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

brian john said:


> Sales people cooking the numbers to make a sale? :blink::no:You are making that up.:laughing::laughing:
> 
> I have seen this with the Harmonic mitigators sales forces, PQ, and on and on.....


You've got to bend things a bit to make a successful sale, but certain things are complete snake oil. Capacitor box that claims to save utility bill for residential customers, electronic gadget that plugs into your 12v outlet in your car that claims to improve mileage etc are among those total snake oil. 

LEDs that claim unrealistic savings lean towards snake oil.


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## Stab&Shoot (Aug 23, 2011)

Nice work Sir! Awesome results!


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## Dfresh64 (Sep 10, 2011)

Looks great !! I hope I get the opportunity to do some . Are those retro fit? Or new shoe box ?


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Dfresh64 said:


> Looks great !! I hope I get the opportunity to do some . Are those retro fit? Or new shoe box ?


New pole's and heads. They do offer retrofits for existing fixtures.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

One year later...

Had a service call down the street from this install tonight and curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to see how the LED's held so I stopped and grabbed a reading. Of course I don't remember exactly the height I held the meter the first time but the lights looked good :thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

zwodubber said:


> One year later...
> 
> Had a service call down the street from this install tonight and curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to see how the LED's held so I stopped and grabbed a reading. Of course I don't remember exactly the height I held the meter the first time but the lights looked good :thumbsup:


 
So far all the new LED lumiaires still working as per manufacter stated?

Merci,
Marc


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> So far all the new LED lumiaires still working as per manufacter stated?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


I just took a quick reading at each fixture, nothing formal but the lights looked as strong as the day we installed.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

zwodubber said:


> I just took a quick reading at each fixture, nothing formal but the lights looked as strong as the day we installed.


Wow seems got a good one there.

Just wait for one more year then see it will go from there.

Merci,
Marc


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

zwodubber said:


> I just took a quick reading at each fixture, nothing formal but the lights looked as strong as the day we installed.


Now that is how I like to see an old thread resurrected. That is a great update and good data for future research for the members here.

:thumbup:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> Now that is how I like to see an old thread resurrected. That is a great update and good data for future research for the members here.
> 
> :thumbup:


 
That part I like to hear them for following up what they been doing with something special and give us more details and update the infomation.

I like it as well.

Merci,
Marc


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> That part I like to hear them for following up what they been doing with something special and give us more details and update the infomation.
> 
> I like it as well.
> 
> ...


I try to do things like this for my own records and to keep track of how new products are holding up. It makes it much easier to endorse or eliminate certain products.


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

LARMGUY said:


> Now that is how I like to see an old thread resurrected. That is a great update and good data for future research for the members here.
> 
> :thumbup:


Thanks, I also noted that I held the meter at my belt level this time so next year I can do the same


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Also I know I left some questions unanswered, if you guys still have any I will do my best to get you the information.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

zwodubber said:


> Also I know I left some questions unanswered, if you guys still have any I will do my best to get you the information.


 
During from the day when you installed the new luminaire did the course of the time did the owner of that place do want to keep the luminaire at high setting or it was switched to med setting or left it on high setting ?

Merci,
Marc


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> During from the day when you installed the new luminaire did the course of the time did the owner of that place do want to keep the luminaire at high setting or it was switched to med setting or left it on high setting ?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Settings were never changed. The lighting consultant has direct contact with the customer but had changes been needed we would have been called.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Can you just retrofit the guts to LEDs? Just install new LED fixtures on the existing poles?Do
you need to worry about the footings, bolt configurations,footings ability to hold the larger pole when upgrading to a taller pole?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Lep said:


> Can you just retrofit the guts to LEDs? Just install new LED fixtures on the existing poles?Do
> you need to worry about the footings, bolt configurations,footings ability to hold the larger pole when upgrading to a taller pole?


 
Oui et Non depending on what the exsting luminaire condtion is and the lighting engineer will assit you on this one due they may know something what we have not know yet.

But there is one heckva big plus with LED luminaires they can knock the electrical load off a bit if done right.

Merci,
Marc


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Oui et Non depending on what the exsting luminaire condtion is and the lighting engineer will assit you on this one due they may know something what we have not know yet.
> 
> But there is one heckva big plus with LED luminaires they can knock the electrical load off a bit if done right.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip seems like I always gotta figure all this stuff out on my own.
Maybe I should shop for a better Electrical supplier that provides better services etc.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Lep said:


> Thanks for the tip seems like I always gotta figure all this stuff out on my own.
> Maybe I should shop for a better Electrical supplier that provides better services etc.


 
Genrally that will be the best answer is check the better electrique supply centre some case you may get lucky to see a lighting engineer in there ( not super often unless super large supply centre may have on hand ) 

Also somecase check the lighting centre some time they will do that as well so take a look to see what they offer on them.

Merci,
Marc


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## vinister (Apr 11, 2012)

argh. Loving this thread but the french, mon dieu ("my god"), its annoying. 

pick a language and go with it man!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

vinister said:


> argh. Loving this thread but the french, mon dieu ("my god"), its annoying.
> 
> pick a language and go with it man!


He is a Moderator and he is in France,so don't bust his balls..:laughing:


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

J'm'en calisse de ton esti de niaisage. Grouille-toé.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

> Directly under the LED
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I noticed is the color difference!


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Lep said:


> Can you just retrofit the guts to LEDs? Just install new LED fixtures on the existing poles?Do
> you need to worry about the footings, bolt configurations,footings ability to hold the larger pole when upgrading to a taller pole?


Yes retrofit kits are available for many shoeboxes. We are the regional installer for the company that provides the LED proposals and implementation, makes our lives easier as the jobs come to us


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would have loved to see the difference in light levels 50 foot out from the pole. LED can be very directional at times.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

cguillas said:


> J'm'en calisse de ton esti de niaisage. Grouille-toé.


Très intéressant choix de mots à utiliser ici mais il ne me dérange pas beaucoup du tout. :thumbsup:

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

sbrn33 said:


> I would have loved to see the difference in light levels 50 foot out from the pole. LED can be very directional at times.


That some case you may have a hot spot right below the LED luminaire compared to the conventail luminaires it may not have hot spot there at all.

Merci,
Marc


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

Just found a pic I took a while ago of a demo pancake we had. The insets show 2 of the features :thumbsup:











Inset 1 (obvious)












Inset 2 (dipswitch)


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## zwodubber (Feb 24, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I would have loved to see the difference in light levels 50 foot out from the pole. LED can be very directional at times.


Another interesting feature is that each shoebox is customized for the amount of spread (based on pole height or preference). If you look closely at the picture you can see the angles of the LED's, each pole had slight variations. I will say the spread is not as even as an HPS in the sense that the center is VERY bright and diffuses differently, but I was surprised with the area it covered.

The poles and boxes were number coded for the specific location to be installed


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