# leaky pipes



## dse (Apr 17, 2010)

has any one ever heard of bad grounding ,bad grounding system (or any other electrical reason) that would cause small holes to develope in copper water lines in a house?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Pinhole leaks occur anytime copper piping is improperly grounded. Typically not found in new homes, pinholing due to bad grounding occurs in homes where the original plumbing has been modified. Homeowners may find a new water filtration device has interrupted the ground when they start seeing water leaks after a recent install. It occurs very rapidly, usually being seen about six months after the ground interruption. Correctly installed appliances will have a copper jumper cable connecting the interrupted pipe sections. Non-copper (i.e., Pex) installs, do not have this problem.
The effect is known as galvanic erosion or electrolytic pinholing. It occurs because the water is forced to act as an electrical conduit across the jumpered section, resulting in ionization of materials in the water. When the water conducts the electrical potential back to the copper on the other side of the gap, the ionized minerals bind with the copper creating copper salts. Eventually pin hole leaks form, and where there is one, there are usually more. If you call a plumber out for two pin hole leaks, be sure to examine the grounding. It is very aggressive.
Detecting and eliminating bad grounding is relatively straightforward. Detection is accomplished by use of a simple voltmeter set to DC with the leads placed in various places in the plumbing. Typically, a probe on a hot pipe and a probe on a cold pipe will tell you if there is improper grounding. Anything beyond a few millivolts is important, potentials of 200 mV are common. A bad ground will show up best in the area of the gap, as potential disperses as the water runs. Since the bad ground is usually seen near the water source, as filtration and treatment equipment are added, pinhole leaks can occur anywhere downstream. It is usually the cold water pipe, as this is the one that gets the treatment devices.
Fixing the problem is a simple matter of either purchasing a copper jump kit, composed of a stranded copper cable at least 5mm in diameter and two clamps for affixing it the plumbing. Simpler fixes are possible by taking a length of electrical wire, stripping it on both ends, and affixing it to both sides of the gap. Thin wire, such as household electrical wire, will cure the ground problem, but if there is a surge from a lightning strike, it may break the thin wire, which is why store bought kits are thicker wire -- to survive electrical surges.
A similar jumper wire can also be seen crossing gas meters, but for a different reason.
Note, if homeowners are experiencing shocks or sparks from plumbing fixtures or pipes, it is more than a bad ground, it is likely an electrical wire bridging to the plumbing, but the result is the same, galvanic corrosion.
Pinhole leaks from galvanic corrosion can result in 1000's of dollars in plumbing bills, and sometimes necessitating the replacement of the entire affected line.


Source.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There is way more technical documentation that points to the Ph of the water causing pinholes than any electrical issue. Have the customer have the Ph tested first.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CONFIRMED causes of copper pipe pinholes:


Combination of high pH, low organic matter, aluminum solids, and free chlorine	-Virginia Tech, study commissioned by WSSC, December 2004
 water, poor workmanship, and addition of water softeners -	University of Florida School of Building Construction (1997)
 Workmanship : Excessive use of fluxes; fluxes are corrosive by their nature	AWWA Research Foundation and DVGW-Technologiezentrum Wasser, 1996
 Aluminum-bearing compounds (from concrete pipes, cement mortar lining of cast iron pipes, aluminum coagulant carryover from treatment plants)	Final report on Maryland Task Force on Pinhole Leaks in Copper Pipes
 Combination of: use of soft waters with low pH; high suspended solids and assimilable organic carbon content; long-term or periodic water stagnation; low or nonexistent chlorine levels; maintenance of water temperatures that promote rapid growth and activity of naturally occurring bacteria; and/or the lack of an adequate monitoring program to periodically evaluate water quality and pipe wall condition	Journal AWWA, August 2001, Vol. 93, No. 8, pp. 82-91
 Chloramines, which are chemicals caused by combining chlorine and ammonia (NH3)	Virginia Tech, study commissioned by WSSC, December 2004
 Water velocity in undersized copper tubes. For tubing sizes normally installed in home plumbing, the design water velocity should be targeted toward 4 fps. The greatest effect of velocity occurs where the water is forced to change flow direction, such as at elbows and tees, but excessive water flow rates can be damaging to the entire plumbing system. When copper tubing is installed that is too small in diameter for the pressure and flow available, the resulting high flow rates can erode the protective coating creating areas of bare, unprotected copper. This effect can result in a high rate of corrosion wherever the protective coating is eroded.	A White Paper Review: History Of Use And Performance Of Copper Tube For Potable Water Service, Richard O. Lewis, P.E. Lewis Engineering and Consulting, Inc., http://www.wsscwater.com/
copperpipe/letters/copperpipewp.cfm
Causes of copper pipe pinholes that have been DEBUNKED:


 Manufacture of the copper plumbing materials -	Final report on Maryland Task Force on Pinhole Leaks in Copper Pipes
 Electrolosys
Grounding of electrical systems/ phone systems to the piping system
Harmonic divergence (the alignment of the planets)
Solar flares/sun-spots
Cellular phone/radio signals
Cheap/inferior or imported copper - National Symposium on Copper Plumbing Tube Pitting


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

What about a witches curse?


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I have seen this once. The holes were always where the pipe would go through the bottom plate into the wall from below. Dont know what it was, but my buddy replaced every pipe through the bottom plate at least once in about 3 years in a 15 year old house. I think it was mice.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

My dad bought a house in 65 that had high iron content in the well. between that and the ph, the copper ended up paper thin (and I mean paper thin) at which the pinholes would start. no grounding issues. It took approx 25 yrs for the pipes to degrade. I replace with plastic and all was well until we had to sell the house last yr (dad's dead, mom needs assisted living). the geniuses that were buying the house wanted the (perfectly good) polybutylene replaced with copper (per a home inspector's report) haha. They got what they wanted. you can't tell people nothin.


----------



## dse (Apr 17, 2010)

thanks everyone for their input.love the obama quote


----------



## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree with Ken about the galvanic action. We had to deal with that on the boats, and had to bond EVERY piece of copper on the boat to the sacrificial anode (usually big chunks of zinc) to prevent them from falling to pieces in the first couple of years of sitting in sea water.


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> I agree with Ken about the galvanic action. We had to deal with that on the boats, and had to bond EVERY piece of copper on the boat to the sacrificial anode (usually big chunks of zinc) to prevent them from falling to pieces in the first couple of years of sitting in sea water.


I saw a boat/submarine that was used to smuggle drugs into our harbor from the gulf. It was thought that it was made for a one time run, until they realized the chunks of Zinc were there to prevent it from falling apart over years of use.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

dse said:


> has any one ever heard of bad grounding ,bad grounding system (or any other electrical reason) that would cause small holes to develope in copper water lines in a house?


How old is the house? About 25 to 30 years ago a lot of inferior copper pipe was manufactured due to job strikes and there was less copper to go around. There was another compound mixed with it but I have forgotten the name. My whole subdivision is plagued with the pinholes. It had nothing to do with the electrical.
I don't see how a improper grounding system would cause them anyway. The several that I have had were out in space between joists, etc. No place to arc. Sloppy soldering techniques also cause pinholes.


----------



## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

I always thought electrolysis only worked with DC.


----------



## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> CONFIRMED causes of copper pipe pinholes:
> 
> 
> Combination of high pH, low organic matter, aluminum solids, and free chlorine -Virginia Tech, study commissioned by WSSC, December 2004
> ...


 you did not mention one "lightning"


----------



## Morgan (May 18, 2010)

Sorry don't have any idea about this>hope some one would help you the best...


----------

