# Help- 480v Motor, 220v manifold



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I may be missing something here, but as I understand it, some sort of switch is supposed to energize a 220 solenoid and start the motor at the same time.

If so, I would run a 208 3ø circuit with a neutral to the starter, and reconnect the motor for low voltage. 

Use one of the incoming legs and the neutral to power the starter coil via whatever switch turns it on. 

If the starter does not already have them, get two aux contacts and use those to power the solenoid.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

*Wow that was fast*

Your correct. I have a motor with a solenoid PHYSICALLY attached to it. The motor and solenoid come on together. The motor can be operated on208-220/480. I have a 3-phase panel....but it's on a corner ground delta so there is no nuetral in my panel. Sorry I wasn't specific, completely forgot about it until you proposed that good idea. 

If it was my job that's exactly what I would do, re-config the motor taps, get an interchangeable coil to get it FROM 120 TO 277.... But I don't have a nuetral. Which made me think of a buck boost.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

The starter is too big to use the motor at 480V, the FLA is 2.6A, the lowest setting on the starter overload is 3A. Seems close, but that is roughly 14% high and for every 10% too much current that is allowed to go to the motor, the life is cut by 1/2, so it's not a good idea.

I would configure the motor for 240V, get a 480-240V transformer that has a 4 wire secondary, so you ground a center tap on one leg and end up with 120V for the control. One transformer, all problems solved.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

just get a 480 - 120/240v 50 or 100 va control xfmr (about 30$) , and use a aux contact to feed the solenoid


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

oliquir said:


> just get a 480 - 120/240v 50 or 100 va control xfmr (about 30$) , and use a aux contact to feed the solenoid


Doesn't solve the problem of the starter trips not going low enough for 480V. He would have to buy a new starter too. 

But to your point, that still might be cheaper now that I think about it. The smallest delta high leg xfmr I found was 3kVA, but it was $600.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

*Damn hmmm...*



JRaef said:


> The starter is too big to use the motor at 480V, the FLA is 2.6A, the lowest setting on the starter overload is 3A. Seems close, but that is roughly 14% high and for every 10% too much current that is allowed to go to the motor, the life is cut by 1/2, so it's not a good idea.
> 
> I would configure the motor for 240V, get a 480-240V transformer that has a 4 wire secondary, so you ground a center tap on one leg and end up with 120V for the control. One transformer, all problems solved.


I'm impressed JRaef, you know your stuff huh... To be honest with you my boss seen it and made no mention, no fuss, no nothing of the .4a difference in size, I assumed it was negligable. So your saying if the motor was to draw over its 2.6a it would be damaged and if prolonged duration it would kill the life by 1/2,I understand that. HOWEVER, that would be only under the condition of an overload correct?? 

Stupid question, This motor is used to pump gas (Hydrogen, argon, helium, etc.) into a cylinder, it's not like this is used for thick liquids, compressor or exhaust fan where loads are subject to substantial change, do you think I would be ok to use the 3a motor starter given the circumstances of the "light and consistent load" or is that just poor practice?? From what my boss says it's not a big deal.

I appreciate this a lot. All you guys, thanks. I've been with my company for a few years and I'm the "main guy" so I have no one to turn to other than my boss and sometimes the **** he says just makes my head spin because it sounds like he's trying to lie so he doesn't look bad, hopefully not cause in turn he's doing himself and me no favors...


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

bostongtp said:


> i'm impressed jraef, you know your stuff huh... To be honest with you my boss seen it and made no mention, no fuss, no nothing of the .4a difference in size, i assumed it was negligable. So your saying if the motor was to draw over its 2.6a it would be damaged and if prolonged duration it would kill the life by 1/2,i understand that. However, that would be only under the condition of an overload correct??
> 
> Stupid question, this motor is used to pump gas (hydrogen, argon, helium, etc.) into a cylinder, it's not like this is used for thick liquids, compressor or exhaust fan where loads are subject to substantial change, do you think i would be ok to use the 3a motor starter given the circumstances of the "light and consistent load" or is that just poor practice?? From what my boss says it's not a big deal.
> 
> I appreciate this a lot. All you guys, thanks. I've been with my company for a few years and i'm the "main guy" so i have no one to turn to other than my boss and sometimes the **** he says just makes my head spin because it sounds like he's trying to lie so he doesn't look bad, hopefully not cause in turn he's doing himself and me no favors...


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

bostongtp said:


> I'm impressed JRaef, you know your stuff huh... To be honest with you my boss seen it and made no mention, no fuss, no nothing of the .4a difference in size, I assumed it was negligable. So your saying if the motor was to draw over its 2.6a it would be damaged and if prolonged duration it would kill the life by 1/2,I understand that. HOWEVER, that would be only under the condition of an overload correct??


Yes it's true that it is there for OVERLOAD protection. But an overload relay is ALWAYS there for overload protection, you never need one if nothing ever were to go wrong, but if it does and it's not there or set wrong, then you have the potential for equipment damage or worse yet, a fire. That's why the NEC _*requires *_that you have one!



> Stupid question, This motor is used to pump gas (Hydrogen, argon, helium, etc.) into a cylinder, it's not like this is used for thick liquids, compressor or exhaust fan where loads are subject to substantial change, do you think I would be ok to use the 3a motor starter given the circumstances of the "light and consistent load" or is that just poor practice?? From what my boss says it's not a big deal.


"No big deal" means he puts no value on his equipment, I never understand this attitude. On that specific overload relay, Sq. D has it set up to ALREADY factor in the NEC allowable margin of what is called the "pick-up point" of the thermal damage curve. So on a motor rated for a 1.15SF**, as most small NEMA design motors are, that means the OL relay doesn't even BEGIN to protect the motor until it is at 125% of the motor FLA. So you are supposed to set that dial to the motor nameplate FLA, and that relay ALREADY factors in the 125%. So in this case, your setting doesn't go lower than 3A, so the relay does not even begin it's countdown to trip until AFTER the current gets to 3.75A. But your motor nameplate FLA is 2.6A, so if there is any kind of a problem, before that relay even THINKS about starting to protect that motor it is already drawing 144% of rated current. Then from that point, the trip curve is skewed way too high and by the time that relay trips, your motor winding insulation may be on fire.

But... no big deal I guess...

** If your motor is European or has a 1.0 Service Factor, you are supposed to set that OL relay dial at 90% of the motor nameplate FLA, so in your case the situation is even worse...


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

JRaef said:


> Yes it's true that it is there for OVERLOAD protection. But an overload relay is ALWAYS there for overload protection, you never need one if nothing ever were to go wrong, but if it does and it's not there or set wrong, then you have the potential for equipment damage or worse yet, a fire. That's why the NEC requires that you have one!
> 
> "No big deal" means he puts no value on his equipment, I never understand this attitude. On that specific overload relay, Sq. D has it set up to ALREADY factor in the NEC allowable margin of what is called the "pick-up point" of the thermal damage curve. So on a motor rated for a 1.15SF**, as most small NEMA design motors are, that means the OL relay doesn't even BEGIN to protect the motor until it is at 125% of the motor FLA. So you are supposed to set that dial to the motor nameplate FLA, and that relay ALREADY factors in the 125%. So in this case, your setting doesn't go lower than 3A, so the relay does not even begin it's countdown to trip until AFTER the current gets to 3.75A. But your motor nameplate FLA is 2.6A, so if there is any kind of a problem, before that relay even THINKS about starting to protect that motor it is already drawing 144% of rated current. Then from that point, the trip curve is skewed way too high and by the time that relay trips, your motor winding insulation may be on fire.
> 
> ...


Your absolutely right IT IS a big deal, the motor alone cost around $3000 and that is an excellent point to take into consideration, the motor starter is ALREADY Sized at 125% + 14%. I just needed the information to back me up when I get fired for speaking my concern, he's going to freak and make it a HUGE deal, maybe I'll video tape it for u guys, I'll put it on YouTube along with my resume. 

It's too bad, because in the end it was all to save a buck, but I don't see what we saved. We just gained headaches and confusion. 

Did u see my pics? I was told to install a 480v -120v multi tap 50va transformer. I wired the line side 480v to get my 120 secondary for the contactor coil/stop start, then also used the 240v tap for the 220v solonoid. What do you think about that? Pretty stupid huh? Now the solonoid valve will always be open, I don't know much about there setup (mechanical wise) but I'm sure the solonoid should not stay open when motor is de-energized. 

Time to Chuck the dueces and set sails, I need a new company, I cant have the wool pulled over my eyes, or learn homeowner practices. That's not what I'm in it for...


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

Update: 
Installed a 2-pole 220v/10a, 120v coil relay.
-it was an "ice cube relay" , and I had the mounting block to mount it on din rail, but that would have required installing another box due to the height it would be sitting at if mounted with the terminal block. I didn't want that because I think this already looks hack. I took some contact sized stake ons, crimped on leads, labeled each conductor then insulated each spade connector with some shrink tube.

The wiring:

13 &14 were my coil.....9 & 12 were my "lines"...... And 8 & ....10 I think we're my 220v solenoid leads. Which were wired to the N.O. contacts.

Coil is energized when start button is depressed, solenoid is open while motor is energized as well.

The 120vcoil for the relay was also being fed from the 50va Multi tap.

So now my motor starter and momentary stop start circuit operates just as it should. When the momentary start button is depressed, the vacuum pump is energized, the solenoid opens and in turn begins to pump gas. When the momentary stop button is depressed, power to the relays coil is de-energized and the solenoid closes as while as the motor contacts drop out.

This was something I'll tell ya. I had a 480v corner ground delta system ( which means I didn't have a nuetral), I had a 480v motor starter, 220v solenoid, and a 120v contactor coil, so many voltages for 1 piece of equipment! But in the end made it work. And I wound up replacing the guts of the motor starter with traditional Heaters, sized specifically for this motor, as opposed to the adjustable trip mechanism the previous one in the pics had, now it's done right and I feel half decent about it.....except where I had to use a 1/2" threaded coupling on the bottom of multi tap, and all I had on the truck was a 3/4" with some 3/4>1/2" reducing bushings lol.

I appreciate the help you guys gave me.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

A handy box on a gas panel. Yikes. Lol


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

Jlarson said:


> A handy box on a gas panel. Yikes.
> 
> Lol...a handy box on a gas panel? Anyways, This isn't a classified location, if it was, I believe it would be class 1 division 2??...basically the fittings, equipment, and general wiring methods do not apply.
> 
> In a different area in this facility it is, so we have to use rigid, explosion proof fittings, explosion proof fixtures, etc.


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## IP-EI (Apr 7, 2014)

Jlarson said:


> A handy box on a gas panel. Yikes. Lol


Argon and oxygen tanks being filled, non explosion-proof fittings, electricians that cut corners....what could go wrong?


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

I don't see how that's not a classified area
Edit: just noticed it might be argon.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

IP-EI said:


> Argon and oxygen tanks being filled, non explosion-proof fittings, electricians that cut corners....what could go wrong?


Tell us how argon can explode. I thought it was completely inert and had a flammability rating of zero


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## IP-EI (Apr 7, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Tell us how argon can explode. I thought it was completely inert and had a flammability rating of zero


The OP said the pump in that area is used to pump argon, helium, nitrogen, oxygen....


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

IP-EI said:


> The OP said the pump in that area is used to pump argon, helium, nitrogen, oxygen....


 The helium will get you there I bet. I'm not opening a code book on a Sunday but I'm curious. I don't know enough about gases to be relevant. I only work with liquid fuels mostly


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## IP-EI (Apr 7, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> The helium will get you there I bet. I'm not opening a code book on a Sunday but I'm curious. I don't know enough about gases to be relevant. I only work with liquid fuels mostly


I thought it just made me talk funny....:laughing:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

IP-EI said:


> I thought it just made me talk funny....:laughing:


I googled it. It's non flammable as well. I guess if it had been flammable there's be kids out there blowing 10' fireballs at every birthday party


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Helium, argon, and nitrogen are inert gases.

If they are pumping hydrogen and oxygen, however, those can definitely be an issue.


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## IP-EI (Apr 7, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> I googled it. It's non flammable as well. I guess if it had been flammable there's be kids out there blowing 10' fireballs at every birthday party


I didn't even consider Argon being inert. I just know the mechanics I work with use it in their cutting rigs.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I don't think it needs to be classified. The only "questionable" gas is oxygen, and I don't believe oxygen qualifies an area as hazardous location per NEC. Being an oxidizer doesn't mean it's flammable or combustible.

There may well be other standards that cover this, though, I'm not a haz-loc guy.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

IP-EI said:


> I didn't even consider Argon being inert. I just know the mechanics I work with use it in their cutting rigs.


It's used in welding too. We have a 25' talk tank outside our plant and feed it directly to every manual and robotic welding station


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> It's used in welding too...


 Except oxygen, all the gases he listed are used as shield gasses in welding because they don't support combustion.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> I don't think it needs to be classified. The only "questionable" gas is oxygen, and I don't believe oxygen qualifies an area as hazardous location per NEC. Being an oxidizer doesn't mean it's flammable or combustible.
> 
> There may well be other standards that cover this, though, I'm not a haz-loc guy.


I think Hydrogen would be more than "questionable" as it is highly combustible.












bostongtp said:


> I'm working in an industrial facility which fills argon, *hydrogen*, and some other gases,


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I didn't read carefully, I missed the "hydrogen" part.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> I googled it. It's non flammable as well. I guess if it had been flammable there's be kids out there blowing 10' fireballs at every birthday party


Common guys really? Lol cutting corners? I would agree with that statement about the weatherproof cover on the handy box, that looks like dog ****









but thats replaced with a regular one on monday. Apparently your new to the trade, welcome! However, this isn't my first rodeo, it's my second. The gases they work with are not flammable and the area is not under high concentration. And YES I did list what types of gas they use, aha ha I'm still a little shocked at IP, or whatever his name is "electricians that cut corners", that's cute. If I was trying to cut corners I would have done away with the 1000 labels.

Hydrogen would need to be under a high enough concentrations where it could potentially ignite or become explosive. That's not my case

Class 1 division 1:
- ignitable concentrations must exist under normal operating conditions.
-where ignitable concentrations exist frequently due to repair, leaks, maintenance operations.
-or where breakdown or faulty operation of equipment or process might release ignitable concentrations of flmammable gas, liquids produced vapors, or combustible liquid produced vapors and might also cause simultaneous failure of Electrical equipment in such a way as to directly cause the electrical equipment to become source of ignition.

However looking at the definition of Class1 Division 2....I'm getting a little nervous for my boss. NOTHING in that room utilizes explosion proof fittings boxes etc, but to me it appears as though this would be a class 1 Division 2 location....what do you guys think?


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)




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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bostongtp said:


> Hey guys I'm new to the forum have come here on spare time and learned a lot. Appreciate it. Here's my deal if you guys could help generate some ideas that would be good.
> 
> I'm working in an industrial facility which fills argon, hydrogen, and some other gases, the vacuum manifold pump is what I am wiring. I have a 3 phase 480 adjustable trip motor starter (ranging from 3-9a if anyone cares for that) with a 120v coil. I need to power the solenoid/manifold with 220v TO START WITH MOTOR. The motor is a 480v 3-phase unit drawing 2.6a nameplate rating.
> 
> ...


Change coil, buy transformer for solenoid.

NEXT!


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

You guys are dumb. :laughing: I just have a hatred for hacky boxes. Carry on.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

Jlarson said:


> You guys are dumb. :laughing: I just have a hatred for hacky boxes. Carry on.


What makes anyone here dumb? No one's Dumb...I don't appreciate hack boxes either, but I made it happen with what I had on the truck. And the design changed twice.

I'm looking for constructive criticism don't be a wise guy huh??. We're trying to help this site maintain a good image, not one where people comment to say others are stupid but don't help out.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I think it looks ok for a what's in truck situation, work with what the boss gives you.


But we have very specific shop and customer standards for such equipment but we also have a full electrical and mechanical panel shop.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

Jlarson said:


> I think it looks ok for a what's in truck situation, work with what the boss gives you.
> 
> But we have very specific shop and customer standards for such equipment but we also have a full electrical and mechanical panel shop.


Thanks. Believe me I truly care about my standards....I don't think this one was up to par for ME, but I don't sign my paychecks yet. And your shop would have done a more universal approach, but like I said this job was a little too much for my boss I believe. He tried being cheap and this is the result. Doesn't look like dog ****, but in my opinion it's absolutely nothing special and ugly.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

jrannis said:


> Change coil, buy transformer for solenoid. NEXT!


 whats up?


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

Next72969 said:


> whats up?


He's saying change the contactor coil voltage, the coil is an interchangeable piece. You take a few screws out and it comes right out.

It was a good idea, at the time I couldn't wait for delivery though.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

C'mon guys, everyone take a deep breath and lighten up. :drink:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Some places do have special specs when dealing with argon, helium, ect to prevent travel to and accumulation in other spaces to prevent asphyxiation hazards.


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## IP-EI (Apr 7, 2014)

IslandGuy said:


> C'mon guys, everyone take a deep breath and lighten up. :drink:


I would rather have a drink and lighten up, but sadly I'm at work. I would honestly rather avoid such nonsense, but some remarks I cannot let slide. I take too much pride in my craft to tolerate someone saying "I must be new." But I'll bury this particular hatchet, it was getting old anyway. Cheers.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

IP-EI said:


> I would rather have a drink and lighten up, but sadly I'm at work. I would honestly rather avoid such nonsense, but some remarks I cannot let slide. I take too much pride in my craft to tolerate someone saying "I must be new." But I'll bury this particular hatchet, it was getting old anyway. Cheers.


I appologize for saying you must be new. We're all very opinionated, we're tradesmen not pencil pushers. Discussions will get heated.


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