# Sump pump GFCI



## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

This site is for electrical pros only & we cannot give advice because of liability. Call an electrician or post on...
https://www.diychatroom.com/


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## Wlaricci (Jul 11, 2019)

I am an electrician, asking what you guys experience with this situation is? 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Please fill out your profile then. You may have to choose desktop view & turn your phone sideways to do that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wlaricci said:


> I am an electrician, asking what you guys experience with this situation is?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


If you are an electrician, then you shouldn’t be taking electrical advice from a home inspector.


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## Wlaricci (Jul 11, 2019)

I know in unfinished areas it should be gfci protected by NEC. It wasn't required when the house was built. I heard Mike Holt talk about a situation where someone was killed during a flood because it wasn't gfci protected. I know a lot of electricians don't do it because of tripping. I was thinking about putting a gfci receptacle with an audible alarm but wanted to see what other electricians have done and which manufacturer and model numbers work the best. 

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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I like the alarm idea. Connect it to your smart phone in case you’re on vacation.

ps. Fill out your profile and nobody will bug you about it anymore.


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## Wlaricci (Jul 11, 2019)

I've heard others in certain situations recommend a certain manufacturer because on the 4-6ma range for personal protection, some closer to 6ma have less issues with nuisance tripping. That's all I'm getting at, I don't want to have constant tripping and flood my basement when i could easily ask fellow electricians that know more about this than me their preference and experience. 

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## Wlaricci (Jul 11, 2019)

99cents said:


> I like the alarm idea. Connect it to your smart phone in case you’re on vacation.
> 
> ps. Fill out your profile and nobody will bug you about it anymore.


Yeah, really putting me through the ringer! Only here to learn and share knowledge if I can. Thanks

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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

If it's that critical, consider a battery backup or a generator. Is all of your outside drainage away from the house?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

99cents said:


> I like the alarm idea. Connect it to your smart phone in case you’re on vacation..


That's a great idea. Know of any that work with Google?
I hate the idea of having to use ITTT


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> That's a great idea. Know of any that work with Google?
> I hate the idea of having to use ITTT


Nope. I’m not much of a propeller head and neither are you  . I’ll figure it out when a customer asks but, until then, ignorance is bliss.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you are really concerned about the sump pump circuit zapping someone in a flood, a GFCI breaker makes more sense than a GFCI receptacle, right? 

If you want an alarm when the circuit trips, due to GFCI or otherwise, you put the coil of a RIB relay on it and monitor the contacts with an alarm. The monitor of course has to go on a separate circuit and / or have a battery backup. 

The monitor / alarm could be just a buzzer or it could be something smart that notifies your phone, all kinds of possibilities. If you want protection even if the power is out and the internet is down you can use a panel with a battery and cellular communications. 

But if you are really concerned about flooding the basement you might as well put a flood sensor on that alarms if there's water on the floor, that way even if the sump pump fails you get an alarm. You still want the alarm for the pump power though, that gives you a chance to correct it before a flood. 

And realistically since you might be hours away when the emergency occurs why not put an electrically activated valve just downstream of the water main? Set it up so it can be turned off remotely and / or automatically by the flood sensor. You might have to interlock the furnace and maybe the well pump. I would always add a camera or two if you're going to add the remote control capability, there's nothing like eyes on the scene if you are deciding what action to take. 

And while you're at it, why not put a power monitor and temperature sensor on the storage freezer in the basement. Once you have the other stuff in place it isn't that big of an add. 

Now systems like this are not really worth their salt unless you periodically test them, you better sign them up for an annual or really better a quarterly maintenance on this stuff. 

Maybe they'll just build a nice little room for you in the basement, with a couch, a good big screen, a microwave, and wifi, and adopt you. If there's a decent sized basement window you should probably see if they will go for this. 

If you can sell this, within a year Johnson Controls will find you and back up a Brinks truck to lure you away. Just go with them, do not ask how they found you, obviously it's automated.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> If you are really concerned about the sump pump circuit zapping someone in a flood, a GFCI breaker makes more sense than a GFCI receptacle, right?
> 
> If you want an alarm when the circuit trips, due to GFCI or otherwise, you put the coil of a RIB relay on it and monitor the contacts with an alarm. The monitor of course has to go on a separate circuit and / or have a battery backup.
> 
> ...


I stopped reading at "If", but I am glad that you are still alive. We had a splatz Dead Pool on what time you fell off the roof.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I stopped reading at "If", but I am glad that you are still alive. We had a splatz Dead Pool on what time you fell off the roof.


Maybe he did fall of fun he roof and now has time to type so much while he's recovering from 3 broken legs.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I stopped reading at "If", but I am glad that you are still alive. We had a splatz Dead Pool on what time you fell off the roof.


I’ll help you out here, Hack. “You” came after the “if”. After that, I dunno, my ADD took over.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I wouldn't in a million year put a sump pump on a GFCI.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't in a million year put a sump pump on a GFCI.


Me either, and I am an advocate of GFCI protection. 

Just because one person got killed from a sump pump circuit during one flood, it doesn't mean that we should change the way we do it for the other billions of installations. 

It's a once in a while event, a handful of people died over the course of decades. In the 20 seconds I have been writing this post, 5 people died in car accidents that could have been prevented by requiring helmets, roll cages, and better seatbelts.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't in a million year put a sump pump on a GFCI.





HackWork said:


> Me either, and I am an advocate of GFCI protection.
> 
> Just because one person got killed from a sump pump circuit during one flood, it doesn't mean that we should change the way we do it for the other billions of installations.
> 
> It's a once in a while event, a handful of people died over the course of decades. In the 20 seconds I have been writing this post, 5 people died in car accidents that could have been prevented by requiring helmets, roll cages, and better seatbelts.


Some people think a sump pump is a cure all, but, nothing stops Mother Nature.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> Some people think a sump pump is a cure all, but, nothing stops Mother Nature.


Sometimes it doesn't pay to be too prepared. I heard of a guy that had everything set up, sump pump on a generator, in a major flood. He kept his basement dry while his neighbor's basements were filling up with water. Then the storm surge hit and knocked in his basement wall because it was empty.

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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Forge Boyz said:


> Sometimes it doesn't pay to be too prepared. I heard of a guy that had everything set up, sump pump on a generator, in a major flood. He kept his basement dry while his neighbor's basements were filling up with water. Then the storm surge hit and knocked in his basement wall because it was empty.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


True, risk mitigation only goes so far. Sounds like he was on the coast and knew a storm could take his whole house.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't in a million year put a sump pump on a GFCI.


You’re more certain than me. I wouldn’t do it in 100,000 years.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

*Sewer sump pumps* are not required to be Gfi protected right ? 

I think one of the installations near me, the inspector wanted it on a 2-pole Gfi breaker. After a service call (tripped Gfi), and sewer backing up into their vacation house, I removed the Gfi breaker.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You could always have a licensed and insured plumber install a water powered backup sump pump, if it actually works, it will work even if the power's out, as long as there's water pressure. 

You could also use a 240V non-GFCI sump pump, that'll show those safety nazis. Shock my ass if I want in my own damn home if I want dammit. 

Of course you could go the other way and hardwire a 12V or 24V or 48V pump, would that be so bad?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> I wouldn't in a million year put a sump pump on a GFCI.





HackWork said:


> Me either, and I am an advocate of GFCI protection.





99cents said:


> You’re more certain than me. I wouldn’t do it in 100,000 years.


I know nobody likes to let those code bitchos push them around but let's go over this. 

You go out on a limb and knowingly create a potential safety / liability issue - 

a code issue that will almost certainly be discovered when the home is inspected next time it's sold - 

to save your customer money, lower their bill with you - 

in order to provide pre-NEC-2008 reliablity for the protection of the junk in their basement? 

Shrewd! 

 

:no: 

Install an alarm for them.

:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> You go out on a limb and knowingly create a potential safety / liability issue -


Bologna.


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## Wlaricci (Jul 11, 2019)

Well, some of you guys like to entertain yourselves rather than help I see. 
Pretty simple question, don't understand all the dumb answers.
Apparently, you guys don't recommend installing a gfci for this purpose as it creates more issues than it's worth.
Thanks to anyone who had a serious reply.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> If you are an electrician, then you shouldn’t be taking electrical advice from a home inspector.



But the inspector took a 1 week crash course on everything from foundation to roof so he’s an expert n stuff 


Seriously hack, that made me LOL


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wlaricci said:


> Well, some of you guys like to entertain yourselves rather than help I see.
> Pretty simple question, don't understand all the dumb answers.


 Don't feel bad, they don't help me either. I ask one simple question and get 5 pages of harassment. You only got 2.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Don't feel bad, they don't help me either. I ask one simple question and get 5 pages of harassment. You only got 2.


To be fair, you’re pretty helpless. OP would have potential if he would just stop lying about being an electrician.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

five.five-six said:


> To be fair, you’re pretty helpless. OP would have potential if he would just stop lying about being an electrician.


Ya see, now this was a quality jab. It still stings even now. I have been burned.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Wlaricci said:


> Well, some of you guys like to entertain yourselves rather than help I see.
> Pretty simple question, don't understand all the dumb answers.
> Apparently, you guys don't recommend installing a gfci for this purpose as it creates more issues than it's worth.
> Thanks to anyone who had a serious reply.


You get what you pay for. If you didn't want a well rounded discussion from pros why did you post here?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> I know nobody likes to let those code bitchos push them around but let's go over this.
> 
> You go out on a limb and knowingly create a potential safety / liability issue -
> 
> ...


Prior to the code change when the manufacturers decided they wanted to sell more GFCI's, you could have non-GFCI outlets for dedicated appliances in basements. I assume there's still millions, if not hundreds of millions of such non-GFCI outlets out there. That's an awful lot of "unsafe" :no: outlets out there still in existence. All that made them "unsafe" was a bunch of bought off failed electricians and industry "professionals" to change the code.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Another thing - what is unsafe about a non-GFCI outlet for a 3-prong appliance? Assuming all the EGC path is intact and nobody defeated the grounding pin, where is the danger? I fail to see it. GFCI's are there to provide an additional line of defense against poor or nonexistent EGC's.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MTW said:


> Another thing - what is unsafe about a non-GFCI outlet for a 3-prong appliance? Assuming all the EGC path is intact and nobody defeated the grounding pin, where is the danger? I fail to see it. GFCI's are there to provide an additional line of defense against poor or nonexistent EGC's.


Something simple like a guy up to his ankles in water goes to do something by the sump pump and grabs a frayed cord. Or a high impedance ground fault that won't clear the breaker.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

splatz said:


> Something simple like a guy up to his ankles in water goes to do something by the sump pump and grabs a frayed cord. Or a high impedance ground fault that won't clear the breaker.


I see. :no:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

ellabond said:


> sump pump on gfci sucks


Isn't that what a sump pump is supposed to do.....suck....as in suck the water out of the sump??

Lol.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Wirenuting said:


> That's a great idea. Know of any that work with Google? I hate the idea of having to use ITTT


Yes it works with google or any other email provider because the message is generated and transmitted by the alarm equipment of if you have an alarm monitoring company it is transmitted by their employees or computers. What I installed at my grandparents cottage was a programmed stationary cell phone and telephone landline dialer and voice announcer that were activated by their alarm system. It would call the alarm monitoring company but it would also send an SMS text to several of their adult children's cell phones. They would get on a conference call and decide who would do what based on who could get free and was closest to the cottage. Home alarm systems can take care of all that but the monitoring company can be Several states away. So if the storm damages the commercial communications infrastructure they might not be able to reach you quickly. Cell towers that are not physically damaged and have alternate interlinking pathways will remain available for 12 hours before their batteries are exhausted so you should get the first notification from the system but after that all bets are off. 

Tom Horne


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

micromind said:


> Isn't that what a sump pump is supposed to do.....suck....as in suck the water out of the sump??
> 
> Lol.


You just had to go there didn't you.


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## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Bird dog said:


> You get what you pay for. If you didn't want a well rounded discussion from pros why did you post here?


Quality can be illustrated by the selling of Oats. If you want clean nutritious oats you must pay a fair price. If you can be content with oats that have already been through a horse you can pay slightly less. 

Tom Horne


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