# Electrical in High end homes



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Went to an estimate today to a home that looked like a castle. They want to add outlets ,recessed lighting, pendants, chandeliers everywhere. 

Every wall, ceiling, and floor is incredibly detailed. 

Tiles on walls , large ceiling beams, moulding over 10” in depth , gothic pendants, incredible woodwork. 

House was built in 1930 but has had extensive updates. Seems like most of the electricians they seeked ran away. 

There’s money to be made but I’m wondering what I’m getting into, I’m sure some of you have worked in homes like this... what do you think ?

Here’s a pic of the living area where they want 10 recessed lights


Walls are tiled , the ceiling moulding is 10”-12” in depth, basement and upper levels are finished and detailed to an even more extreme. 













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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Anything can be done for the right price. I'd price this job high enough so I wouldn't be too concerned with how long it took, but I know I'd get enough to take the time to get it right, protect the property, make the home owner happy and make a good profit doing something few others would attempt. 

I'd naturally be very clear about the terms and clear about the fact that the walls may, if necessary, have to be opened up to accommodate wiring and that you don't patch and paint. Patching and painting by others.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

There is only money to be made on that job if the homeowner is willing to spend the money required to do the work properly. Echoing what @flyboy said setting very clear expectations about having to open walls and ceilings and who will be responsible for the repairs will be critical.

I'm sure that previous contractors that looked at the job ran away... The question is why did they run away???
Did the contractors run away because working in that home was too difficult?
Or is it possible that they ran because they homeowner did not have realistic expectations about the budget for the project, the difficulty of the work, or the possible extent of repairs needed to complete the installations?

How long has this prospective customer owned this home?
Have they done any previous remodeling or renovations on this home?
Has the owner ever owned a nearly 100 year old home and hired a contractor for extensive renovations?

I would want answers to the above questions before deciding how to proceed. If the owner has realistic expectations of what the project will cost and is willing to pay then it could be a great job. 

If the owner's expectations don't align with how you view the project you could always break it into smaller pieces. Start with lighting in one room and see how it goes.

Homes like that, that are old and have been remodeled multiple times, are the proverbial "can of worms". There will be unexpected problems like buried splices & boxes, active K&T, framing in places where you won't expect it, etc... Make sure that you price it right to cover the unexpected things that will pop up.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

They seemed very understanding and concerned with function. 

They also want to add 6 receptacles to this room and other rooms. I’m unsure of my options other than a higher end wiremold if one exists. 

Here is a picture of what the basement is like below. I can’t exactly just snake wires down for outlets on every wall. 

I’m up for any challenge but this one had me scratching my head.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

That is the type house I worked in daily while living in NJ. 

As others have said just price it to your advantage, taking your time and being clear about you not doing any patching or painting.

My BIL and I made great money and had made many lasting customers that would extra for service calls on their homes in other states.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

WronGun said:


> They seemed very understanding and concerned with function.
> 
> They also want to add 6 receptacles to this room and other rooms. I’m unsure of my options other than a higher end wiremold if one exists.
> 
> ...


I did a job that wasn't as grand as that, but had some original old growth redwood paneling on the interior of the home, real beautiful clear heart stuff. It can't be replaced, unless you know someone with some 1000 year old trees.

We did a complete rewire of the property, it took 3 months of scoping out walls, cutting carefully, fishing wires in, etc. If that house had been rocked, it would have taken 3-4 weeks at the most. 

Like Summit said, you need some very clear expectations, such as what happens when damage is done in the process of installation? We all know it can happen, regardless of who is responsible. 

Without space above or below, you are going to have a very difficult time doing this without at minimum a very very skilled carpenter. Do you have a GC friend? Maybe bring him on with the caveat that he isn't your boss, he is there to work for you. 

I would do it, but I would make sure to charge very very large for it.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I will echo other guys comment .,,

Charge large and take your time and make sure you take plenty photo before you start so that way you know excatally what it was set up before.

Now for the woodwork or patching that I super strongly recomeoned that you get someone else whom know this chit very well and they can able restore back to the oringal condition if possible .

I done a rewired a pretty high end house and took me about 4 months from start to done with few very good local guys with thier wonderfull woodwork and if they done it right you cant tell the differnce at all. I was not the only one make alot of money but there were couple guys too make decent money on that too.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I’ve done a few houses like this. 

All receptacles were cut into very old baseboard in some rooms to save the walls. Had to have the floor opened up to save ceiling finishes, it was not fun.

We basically did it “T and M” and all holes and openings were made and patched by others. We basically were given a carpenter to use for whatever we needed.


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## SummitElectric1 (Aug 8, 2016)

WronGun said:


> They seemed very understanding and concerned with function.
> 
> They also want to add 6 receptacles to this room and other rooms. I’m unsure of my options other than a higher end wiremold if one exists.
> 
> ...



It's hard to tell for sure with the resolution of that photo while viewing on my iPad mini, but it looks like there is an existing receptacle in the basemold on the left of the photo. 

As others have said hiring a great carpenter to carefully remove and reinstall/repair trim will likely be necessary for success on this project. Carpenter carefully removes trim - electrician drills out studs & runs wire - carpenter reinstalls trim - electrician collects fat check.

Recessed cans in the basement are your friend when adding receptacles on the main floor, especially when the walls below match the walls above as they often do. A recessed can light with a white baffle trim is out of place in wood soffit around that room. Quote the customer a good price to replace that can trim with something more appropriate, that complements or matches the wood, and run some wires to new lights and receptacles while you are getting rid of those horrible trims.


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## Electrician-Guy (Dec 15, 2018)

It can be done, whether you can, will depend on your experience, imagination and willpower. Definitely use those recessed cans to your advantage. Be prepared to drill through 8" thick beams, do everything you can to not have to. 

Try not to use wiremold unless you are forced, and if you do and its on wood, stain the wiremold so that you can't tell its there. Before you mount it.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I’m gonna sit long and hard before this estimate goes out. First I need to decide if I even want to get into it. This looks like it might be a game of operation. 


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

If that crown moulding is hollow it makes a great chase to fish through.

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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

WronGun said:


> I’m gonna sit long and hard before this estimate goes out. First I need to decide if I even want to get into it. This looks like it might be a game of operation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You seem to have a very good workflow coming in from other areas. If this isn't something you have a good amount of experience with, it can take you down hard and fast.

You'll get caught up in a lot of time, wait... No, a lot of a lot of time, going around in circles on a job like this.

With all the work you have, I personally may pass on this. It is doable and you can make money at it, but maybe your better off making money at what your really good at.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Switched said:


> You seem to have a very good workflow coming in from other areas. If this isn't something you have a good amount of experience with, it can take you down hard and fast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You read my mind. In a time of such craziness between work and business transitions. I’m not sure if I have the patience for an intricate job like this.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Your firm and staff are too young.

Such jobs can rapidly expand like topsy -- and force you to drop// fade your other scheduled work.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I would love this job. There is no room for error. You need to be slow, deliberate and as non-invasive as possible. You need to be hyper respective of the owners and the property. You can’t just be clean, you almost have to be sterile.

If you don’t know other trades who are old world artisans, don’t even go there. Let the HO decide. You don’t need to be responsible for the work of a clown.

Go in with an enormous estimate. And it’s an estimate. There are unknowns. Don’t commit to a deadline. It takes as long as it takes.

This is my dream job but I love challenges. If you can’t commit to babysitting it every minute, it’s not for you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This isn’t a wiremold job. That’s sacrilege in a home like this.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This might be a great job for somebody else @WronGun. It's so tricky and from other posts you already have your hands full, even with a steep price it might be more trouble than it's worth. 

The room with the plaster and exposed beams might not be that bad, but the paneled basement room with a tray ceiling may be a worst case scenario. Lee Ho Fook. I am trying to think of a way to make that worse and I can't  

There's no way I'd attempt the finish carpentry myself here. The guy doing that is going to do the real work, take the real risks, and make the real money. It would make more sense for them to sub an electrician than an electrician to sub a restoration master. 

Maybe offer to spend a half day (on the clock) with the finish carpenter and the customer discussing options, showing them what you need, poking around, making a plan. Then let them open things up so you can work. When they have it ready or near ready, you shoot in for a walk through, if it's all ready schedule your work ASAP. Then they can close it up after.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

splatz said:


> Maybe offer to spend a half day (on the clock) with the finish carpenter and the customer discussing options, showing them what you need, poking around, making a plan.


AKA a consultation fee- which is what they should be expecting since it's a large project. A home interior designer charges for consultations, why shouldn't you?

This way you're not rushed to get back on the clock with a paying job somewhere else.

A $500+ fee for a consultation wouldn't phase them one bit with a house that size. It will also add to the value of your time to them. And can also be a filter to see if they will pay on time as well.


In fact, they would be probably expecting it.

Put value on your time ($) and they will know that you're a serious contractor.


Charge for the walk through and have the contract signed. Let them know htat the consultation fee will be deducted from the final bill- IF the accept it.

Up front and honest, will always work in your favour when it comes to money. :vs_cool:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

We are not magicians. We should not be taking risks on fine finishes. 

Work needs to be done in order to get the end result that they want. That works starts with a professional carpenter removing trim and paneling in order for you to run the wiring. 

They might not like to hear that, they might not want to pay for it, but it is what needs to be done.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

Owners with a home like this aren't worried about price as much as they want a quality contractor. Usually these jobs are from referrals. You may want to consider Time & Material with an hourly rate + 25% of the material.

Keeping this house clean would be a top priority. I would drop cloth the entire area from the door in. That way you can keep you boots on. If they're living there, it may take an hour a day just to clean up. I use #10 canvas drop clothes from Sherwin Williams, not cheap but top quality.

Do they have a Plaster contractor that knows how to repair original plaster? 
Crown molding in some of those rooms may be plaster, not wood. A plasterer would have to make a mold to match the crown.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

We don't typically work in homes like this and I agree with what the others have said. I would only work in a home like this under one of two conditions:

1. I'm able to sub a trusted carpenter to work right alongside us every day we are there, if need be.

Or:

2. The customer supplies a carpenter.

I personally like option 2 better, then it puts the repairs on the customer to deal with.

Like everyone else said, exclude EVERYTHING that isn't electrical. We are not the patchers and painters, or finish carpenters.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> Owners with a home like this aren't worried about price as much as they want a quality contractor.


Unfortunately this isn’t always the case. Sometimes the rich people aren’t willing to spend money on some things. They will buy a $400 bottle of wine, but then complain about a $300 electrical job.

Some of the towns in my service area are very rich. Recently I was in a house that cost $2.4 million. They wanted ceiling fans added to three of the seven bedrooms. I gave them the price that I have used for 100 other people, many of them in relatively low cost of living areas.

The owner told me that the price was outrageous. He told me that he got another price and they were half as much. When I asked him of the name of the contractor, he told me it was a man he found on craigslist. I tried to warn him, but he didn’t care and said he was going to have the other guy do the work.

This type of thing happens often.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I'm an electrician not a fill in the blanks!!





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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is a job for a very experienced small shop or a larger shop with a dedicated guy. As much time goes into planning and poking around as the work itself. You need to work in slow motion. Even minor surgery means you think about it, rethink it and rethink it again.

I worked for a high end GC. He knew his stuff. On one job, he said he would drill my holes. I said no problem. He ended up drilling through the wallpaper and missed an expensive vase by an inch. That vase would have fallen ten feet onto a stone floor. And he was an experienced guy, just a momentary lapse.

Wrongun, you have to ask yourself not only if you have the experience but if you have the ballz.


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## StarCat (Oct 15, 2018)

If moving forward, I would enlist the assistance of a highly skilled old school master carpenter.....


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I bought an inspection camera for a job like this. You really have to explore all options and not rush. Especially if it's time and material, you can feel pushed by the home owner and that adds to the stress. 

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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

splatz said:


> This might be a great job for somebody else @WronGun. It's so tricky and from other posts you already have your hands full, even with a steep price it might be more trouble than it's worth.
> 
> The room with the plaster and exposed beams might not be that bad, but the paneled basement room with a tray ceiling may be a worst case scenario. Lee Ho Fook. * I am trying to think of a way to make that worse and I can't *
> 
> ...


Been there done this, the ductwork buried in the box beams cuts off access to the wall cavities behind them making fishing a very time consuming process.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

HackWork said:


> Unfortunately this isn’t always the case. Sometimes the rich people aren’t willing to spend money on some things. They will buy a $400 bottle of wine, but then complain about a $300 electrical job..


I must be lucky, I have several repeat customers in high end homes that never ask for a price. Sometimes they'll ask for a ball park but no one is bidding against me. I also work at their businesses.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

3DDesign said:


> I must be lucky, *I have several repeat customers in high end homes that never ask for a price*. Sometimes they'll ask for a ball park but no one is bidding against me. I also work at their businesses.


I do as well.

I am just saying that not all of them are like that, even though you would think that they would be. 

I have seen it said tongue-in-cheek a few times, but I think it's true: The rich can be cheaper than the poor.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Rich people are the hardest to work for....they expect everything to be free and nit pick everything


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Tonedeaf said:


> Rich people are the hardest to work for....they expect everything to be free and nit pick everything


Sounds like mother in-laws. :surprise:


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

99cents said:


> This is a job for a very experienced small shop or a larger shop with a dedicated guy. As much time goes into planning and poking around as the work itself. You need to work in slow motion. Even minor surgery means you think about it, rethink it and rethink it again.
> 
> I worked for a high end GC. He knew his stuff. On one job, he said he would drill my holes. I said no problem. He ended up drilling through the wallpaper and missed an expensive vase by an inch. That vase would have fallen ten feet onto a stone floor. And he was an experienced guy, just a momentary lapse.
> 
> Wrongun, you have to ask yourself not only if you have the experience but if you have the ballz.



What 99 is saying.....he wants to come sub for you Wrongun because this is right up his alley. It's cold in Canada, I'm sure he's looking for some warmer weather at this point....:smile:


Tonedeaf said:


> Rich people are the hardest to work for....they expect everything to be free and nit pick everything



That's right!!!


YOU DON'T GET RICH BY GIVING IT ALL AWAY!!!!


:smile:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Cow said:


> What 99 is saying.....he wants to come sub for you Wrongun because this is right up his alley. It's cold in Canada, I'm sure he's looking for some warmer weather at this point....:smile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it’s warm down there, I’ll go down and do it, no problem. I like American money  .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Rambling time...

I just got a call from a woman who said she had a large light fixture that she wanted installed over a pool table. Her phone number was from a very well-to-do town. 

I told her that I would be happy to do it, and then asked if she was going to have the pool table moved. She said no, so I told her that she would have to have someone install protection on the pool table and setup scaffolding over it for us to work on.

She gave me the old "ok, I'll call you back" thing. She will probably find someone else who will do it leaning over the table from a ladder. And he probably won't damage the table, but there is always that risk.

Should I have done it? Maybe. But is it worth it? That's the reason why I immediately thought of this thread when I hung up the phone. Do you need the work? Is the juice worth the squeeze? 

For me, I have plenty of work, I have been turning away some jobs and only taking the better ones. For me, it's not worth getting wrapped up in a job that could end up costing me money instead of making it.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

If I was in your current situation I would have probably done the same thing.

If I needed the work I would have met the customer, built rapport and value and adding how I'm going to protect the table and then present the price that insures profitability. 

I like getting the opportunity that comes with that higher income group, but only if it's going to make me more money. An unreasonable, cheap prospect can go somewhere else. I don't care how much money they have.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

We rewired a house kind of like that, but a touch less fancy a few years ago. Lots of nice wood paneling, big crown molding, and existing horsehair plaster. I wouldn't dare quote that. We did it t&m with our usual material markup. It came out to $145,000 in the end. It's tedious, painfully slow work, and thus, expensive. I was averaging 3-4 receptacles a day or 2 light switches and 1-2 fixtures.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> If I was in your current situation I would have probably done the same thing.
> 
> If I needed the work I would have met the customer, built rapport and value and adding how I'm going to protect the table and then present the price that insures profitability.
> 
> I like getting the opportunity that comes with that higher income group, but only if it's going to make me more money. An unreasonable, cheap prospect can go somewhere else. I don't care how much money they have.


I agree with that. From what I picked up, she’s going to end up going to craigslist and hiring a handyman. 

If she entertained the idea of moving or protecting the table, it would show that she was willing to spend the money to have it done right. Then I would be willing to work with her and set up the protection myself.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I agree with that. From what I picked up, she’s going to end up going to craigslist and hiring a handyman.
> 
> *If she entertained the idea of moving or protecting the table, it would show that she was willing to spend the money to have it done right*. Then I would be willing to work with her and set up the protection myself.


That's really a great way of prequalifying a prospect and saving time. :thumbsup:


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

splatz said:


> . . . more trouble than it's worth.


how much trouble is it worth?


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Tonedeaf said:


> Rich people are the hardest to work for....they expect everything to be free and nit pick everything




Some are I suppose. Im lucky the wealthy clients I have don’t blink and eye , they want what they want. 

Last week the client gave us transportation to make our way around the grounds, the work on this resi property could qualify as full time maintenance.











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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

WronGun said:


> Some are I suppose. Im lucky the wealthy clients I have don’t blink and eye , they want what they want.
> 
> Last week the client gave us transportation to make our way around the grounds, the work on this resi property could qualify as full time maintenance.
> 
> ...


Nice Gator. I have the same one at work. Makes life a lot easier sometimes.

Ours is enclosed with doors and a windshield which is nice this time of year.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Signal1 said:


> Nice Gator. I have the same one at work. Makes life a lot easier sometimes.
> 
> 
> 
> Ours is enclosed with doors and a windshield which is nice this time of year.




That sounds nice 


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## jelhill (Nov 11, 2018)

flyboy said:


> Anything can be done for the right price. I'd price this job high enough so I wouldn't be too concerned with how long it took, but I know I'd get enough to take the time to get it right, protect the property, make the home owner happy and make a good profit doing something few others would attempt.
> 
> I'd naturally be very clear about the terms and clear about the fact that the walls may, if necessary, have to be opened up to accommodate wiring and that you don't patch and paint. Patching and painting by others.


My thoughts exactly... looks like they can easily afford for you to take your time and not smash any vases worth more than your annual income. :smile:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Wrongun is an optimist. when it comes to rich folk , I am a pessimist. 
I'd be one that runs away.

Oh wait...don't tell me...."_our regular electrician of 80 years has 
retired and we're looking for a new good electrician"..._


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