# Dryer AFCI/GFCI protected



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

99.9% of the time its a 240 v circuit?


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*240*

240 can't arc ? dryer motor takes a neutral right


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm bored so ill play along.

Are 240 v circuits required to have arc fault protection?

I haven't seen a common trip arc fault since branch feeder afci isn't allowed.
Since combination arc faults are required now I'm still waiting for common trip ones to be sold. I do a lot of remodeling with mwbc and they would be really covenient.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*SErious*

I"m being serious here. I always strive to protect people and property when it comes to electrical. Don't take my word for it on dryer fires 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...yhm0Qn&sig=AHIEtbQmcQKGX8Lb_BXICTXeD8kQrwCdjg


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

drspec said:


> I'm bored so ill play along.
> 
> Are 240 v circuits required to have arc fault protection?
> 
> ...


Siemens and GE both make one.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*another*

another real life case example. I know many of you have seen this. This could have been prevented with a 2 pole afci 30 amp breaker. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIuOno3uZow


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## Phase2Face (Oct 28, 2012)

Do arc faults work well on motor loads? I had a vacuum cleaner tripping an afci breaker so after that I learned of it as a bad idea.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

I have been BEGGING my Siemens supplier to start supplying a combination acfi breaker and he keeps claiming they arent available yet.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Alot of the dryer fires I have seen were caused by lint buildup and not faulty wiring.


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## Dash Dingo (Mar 3, 2012)

Cletis said:


> I don't understand why dryers are not afci and gfci protected? They run at 75% for long periods of time, they have a metal enclosure, the box is in wood framing???


You must be talking electric dryers? 
They are not gfi protected because the cord is plugged in and never unplugged until the unit is replaced. It's not like a kitchen, bath, or outside recep that might have a person plugging or unplugging something in or out of it on a daily basis.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*..*

QBAG3030 Cutler Hammer I think


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*



Dash Dingo said:


> You must be talking electric dryers?
> They are not gfi protected because the cord is plugged in and never unplugged until the unit is replaced. It's not like a kitchen, bath, or outside recep that might have a person plugging or unplugging something in or out of it on a daily basis.


commercial kitchen appliances are plugged in and never unplugged until unit is replaced too...and they have to be gfci protected ?


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

Cletis said:


> commercial kitchen appliances are plugged in and never unplugged until unit is replaced too...and they have to be gfci protected ?


Not if they're 240v


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Another waste of internet air ways.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*..*



drspec said:


> Alot of the dryer fires I have seen were caused by lint buildup and not faulty wiring.


not true



D-Bo said:


> Not if they're 240v


correct. But, then you still need to worry more about the afci protection for residential


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

Cletis said:


> not true
> 
> correct. But, then you still need to worry more about the afci protection for residential


No I don't. If its not required its not getting afci protection. You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*Nfpa*

This was pulled right off the NFPA site

Facts and figures

In 2010, an estimated 16,800 reported U.S. non-confined or confined home structure fires involving clothes dryers or washing machines resulted in *51 civilian deaths, 380 civilian injuries and $236 million in direct property damage*.
Clothes dryers accounted for 92% of the fires; washing machines 4%, and washer and dryer combinations accounted for 4%.
The leading cause of home clothes dryer and washer fires was failure to clean (32%), followed by unclassified mechanical failure or malfunction (22%). *Eight percent were caused by some type of electrical failure or malfunction.*

Note: that's 1,344 fires from electrical which may have been prevented by using a 2 pole 30 amp series afci breaker


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

AFCI on a dryer would be a nightmare IMO, so it is not required. With your logic every circuit residential and commercial should be afci and GFCI protected. 

Prove to the CMP that there is some documentation that this is an issue and they will make it law.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Dryer fires are mostly started in the vents so afci is not going to help that.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

Cletis said:


> This was pulled right off the NFPA site
> 
> Facts and figures
> 
> ...


Whats your point. Maybe you should start dressing all your cronies in superman costumes and only offer over engineered and over the top above code compliant installs.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

So lets outlaw dryers and go back to the standard method of (50) years ago...


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Cletis said:


> This was pulled right off the NFPA site
> 
> Facts and figures
> 
> ...




Read what you post. 

I said MOST dryer fires were caused from lint buildup.
Thanks for backing me up and proving yourself wrong :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Cletis, any idiot knows that the cmp's respond only to a stuffed envelope passed to them under the table at a code seminar dinner. If you want to see afci dryer protection in the code , just start stuffin. The breaker makers thank you for your kind assistance in these troubled economic times.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*stats*

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) estimates that in 1998, clothes dryers were associated with 15,600 fires, which resulted in 20 deaths and 370 injuries. 

Not sure if that's statistically important. I don't know how many deaths they consider justifiable to warrant a new device ? I was mostly talking a 2 pole series arc fault breaker to stop terminal meltdowns


Dryer Fires : 1999 - 2002 [1]
Causes of Dryer Fire
Failure to Clean 30%
*Electrical Failure 21%*
Mechanical Failure 19%
Other 30%
Electrical Failures
Short Due to Wire Insulation 4%
Short Circuit 4%
Automatic Controls 5%
Other 8%
First Fuel Ignited
Dryer Contents 45%
Lint 24%
Wire Insulation 9%
Other 22%


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Not even one mention of Mickey Mouse chewing on the cable. Must be all the statistical survey's are done in Chicago.


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## D-Bo (Apr 15, 2012)

I think they should produce afci mains. F*** it. Id like to see something on the utility side too


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Type of Consumer Product Estimate of Deaths

The largest amount is from 240V items

Large_Appliances 29 

Air Conditioners 8 

Pumps (sump, pool, other) 7 

Water Heaters 3 

Furnaces 3 

Clothes Dryers 3 

After that..120V devices

Refrigerators 2 

Range hoods ' 2 

Ladders 22 

Small Appliances 1 7 11 

Microwave ovens 7 

Eîectric Fans 5 

Extension Cords 3 

Televisions 2


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

how many of the electrical failures were something like a stuck high limit switch that prevented the element from shutting off?


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I should send in a proposal to GFCI/AFCI protect main breakers to a home.....I'm in the business of protecting and preventing.:jester:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Cletis said:


> The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) estimates that in 1998, clothes dryers were associated with 15,600 fires, which resulted in 20 deaths and 370 injuries.
> 
> Not sure if that's statistically important. I don't know how many deaths they consider justifiable to warrant a new device ? I was mostly talking a 2 pole series arc fault breaker to stop terminal meltdowns
> 
> ...


Cletis.,

As you posted that is pretty much outdated infomation do you have current updated info if so svp posted in here.

Second thing ., I know you mention use the GFCI or AFCI for electrique dryer. Well., tell ya the truth over here in France we have no reguations that required that to be RCD circuit protected but we do useally use the main RCD for protection that useally do it in most area.

The monophase verison if have cord et plug then oui RCD protection but hardwired or triphase verison no RCD beside the main RCD.

Merci,
Marc


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## hukhogan (Dec 30, 2008)

mbednarik said:


> how many of the electrical failures were something like a stuck high limit switch that prevented the element from shutting off?


I think most dryers have a non resettable thermal fuse as a saftey backup to a stuck cycling thermostat.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

drspec said:


> Alot of the dryer fires I have seen were caused by lint buildup and not faulty wiring.


But I bet the wiring gets blamed in 90% of the cases.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

drspec said:


> Alot of the dryer fires I have seen were caused by lint buildup and not faulty wiring.


This is true. In my few years in the fire service, I only found one dryer fire that was the result of faulty wiring, and it was a hack handyman. 

Every other one (approximately 45-50) was lint buildup.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

I have been told that if they can not find a definite cause, it becomes electrical.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

mbednarik said:


> I have been told that if they can not find a definite cause, it becomes electrical.


Semi-true......


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