# CE/CW and future of the IBEW



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

headrec said:


> First of all, I'm hoping to keep this as on topic and as clean as possible.
> 
> In my local, as well as my company, I'm starting to see quite a rise in the ce/cw program and I think its great in the aspect it is winning unusual jobs for contractors. At the same time, I see quite a large number of people still on the books and out of work (journeyman are hurting, apprentices are doing great). I'm curious if this is a way for the contractors to slowly push out the 'union wage' electricians in favor of cheaper labor.
> 
> ...


Where i live we have one to one ratio ,One J-man ,One helper.

What they are tring to do in the case you just stated is sell out the j-man and stack the jobs with helpers so they don't have to pay J-man to do the work .

So the J-men are going to have to take a pay cut if they want to work they are priced too high.

So now the union is stabbing them in the back with this new program.


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## Amelco (Feb 5, 2012)

Just another word for. B scale. Old scam done thousand times. Just like 4 year apprenticeship to a 5.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Amelco said:


> Just another word for. B scale. Old scam done thousand times. *Just like 4 year apprenticeship to a 5*.


I never looked at it that way.

My opinion is mixed on the CE/CW program (B scale or R program). I think in many cases the CE/CW’s may be treated unfairly by the locals as low level workers. Ask any R worker in the locals that have an R program, how they are viewed and how they can be treated in relation to an “A mechanic treatment.

The alternate programs can be good on the other hand if they are strictly used to go after work that the local never took on previously. But the local has to watch the contractors, as the CE/CW’s might migrate into other fields/jobs as the smaller work they were hired for are finished, You have a good CE/CW worker you just slide him into a all “A” project.

A better approach might be to curtail raises until the local reaches a level of pay the market can handle. And I know the members are never going to let that happen.

Never go backwards even if that means never working again.


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## Amelco (Feb 5, 2012)

My problem with CE/CW program is where is it going? What is the End Game? An Apprentice takes a 5 year apprenticeship with the future of training and a career. What does a Ce/Cw get? Will he alaways be a Ce/Cw? I believe their should be an incentive for advancement. How many years does he have to work till he gets to be a JW status and wages? If the Ce/Cw program becomes shorter than the Apprenticeship, why would any sharp kid go into the Apprenticeship? I went through an apprenticeship, but if their was a way I could have done 3years and could have become a JW I would have.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

From an “A” JWs point of view hopefully nowhere.

From a contractors point of view, hopefully it takes place of all those “A” JWs.


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## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

Amelco said:


> My problem with CE/CW program is where is it going? What is the End Game? An Apprentice takes a 5 year apprenticeship with the future of training and a career. What does a Ce/Cw get? Will he alaways be a Ce/Cw? I believe their should be an incentive for advancement. How many years does he have to work till he gets to be a JW status and wages? If the Ce/Cw program becomes shorter than the Apprenticeship, why would any sharp kid go into the Apprenticeship? I went through an apprenticeship, but if their was a way I could have done 3years and could have become a JW I would have.


From my understanding.. in local 429. A CW goes through 5 different stages with wages being from 45% - 65% of the JW's rate, for a total of 8000 hours. Afterwards a CW5 advances to be a CE1 starting at 70% and finally becomes a CE3 at 12,001 hours and finishes at 14,000 making wages of 80% same as an Indentured Apprentice 6 (wage wise obviously).

CWs also receive no pension. CEs recieve less than a dollar per hour.

I'd imagine after their 14,000 hours are completed they'd take an exam and advance onto JW's... That or they're stuck at CE3 wages. I don't know. I can't think of a reason to choose the CE/CW program over the Apprenticeship program.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

bhardman86 said:


> I'd imagine after their 14,000 hours are completed they'd take an exam and advance onto JW's... That or they're stuck at CE3 wages. I don't know. I can't think of a reason to choose the CE/CW program over the Apprenticeship program.


 
Because the IBEW has decided to have a second class electricians they can use, abuse and be kept down at the benefit of "A" men. Seems very brotherly


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

I am of the opinion this program will devalue what a journeyman wireman can earn plying their trade, union and nonunion both.The union contractor who uses this program will benefit in a monetary way short term, but this in turn would force their counterpart to pay their workers less in order to be competitive with their bids.To me the ones who are harmed the most is the ce/cw's who make less money and benefits doing the same job the union journeymen and or apprentice would do at a higher rate.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Brother Noah said:


> I am of the opinion this program will devalue what a journeyman wireman can earn plying their trade, union and nonunion both.The union contractor who uses this program will benefit in a monetary way short term, but this in turn would force their counterpart to pay their workers less in order to be competitive with their bids.To me the ones who are harmed the most is the ce/cw's who make less money and benefits doing the same job the union journeymen and or apprentice would do at a higher rate.



And are used by both sides and respected by neither side. (contractors and "A" JWs)

My opinion is changing from what I originally thought as I hear from "R" workers and how they are abused (or feel abused) by the local and SOME "A" members.


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## al13nw4r3LC76 (Apr 6, 2009)

In the end I think it will hurt everyones wages leaving more Book 1 Members out of work. Essentially the lower scale will take all the work away eventually. I asked in class if you needed to put food on your table if a Book 1 member could go out as a CW/CE with the lower pay. 

I was told that it isn't allowed. Seems BS to me.


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## bhardman86 (Nov 23, 2011)

Have some dignity. Don't go out and work for less than you're worth (mainly downgrading yourself). Time gets terrible -- take a break from the brotherhood and find an open-shop that treats it's workers "fairly" and will pay you for what you feel is acceptable.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

The cw ce program is backwards thinking imo. The whole union philosophy has been to increase wages/ benefits even if it means a slightly lower market share. Now they bring in this new program so they can lower wages and benefits to gain some market share.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> The cw ce program is backwards thinking imo. The whole union philosophy has been to increase wages/ benefits even if it means a slightly lower market share. Now they bring in this new program so they can lower wages and benefits to gain some market share.


 
What some are afraid of is a lower market share leading to a no market share, Which has occured in some areas (I THINK, no facts to back this up).

That maybe the IBEW has or is pricing it's self out of the market?


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

I think if it was a pre apprentice program to make sure guys were going to enjoy the trade and work out for the IBEW did it for like a year then moved up I would like the sounds of it better. Currently we have a material handler position which I think is a better program. They make 1st progression wages and cannot do electrical work. 
Thank god Washington states licensing laws will not allow it to happen. I was told if it did come to WA that the local would hold off and see how it works for other locals. 
Personally I don't like the ideal, but we are always afraid of change. If we don't try it we will never know if it will work or not, Right.
Not to bash states that you don't have to have a licenses to do electrical work, But it is bad for both employer and employees.


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## skeptical449 (Aug 31, 2014)

The international does not give local unions say so over cws or ces. The contractor hires who they please off the street or the hall. There is no ratio and the contractor gets to move them into any jurisdiction they want. In local 11 there are many jw on furlough for too long while their jobs are being replaced. There have been 900plus jw on the books for 2 years now with no relief in sight. Soon there will be hundreds more that give up on furlough. This may be necessary for growth in the electrical union but it is death to high paid jw program and pensions not just here but nationwide. I am grateful for the wages i got and should not cry over the change. However withno future in sight as a jw and we cannot take the lower paying jobs cannot afford not to work but there is no sustainable work cannot pay for health insurance or house payment and cannot work nonunion or lose our pension. This is quite a pickle


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

In our State, CE/CW's are not allowed to work on any prevailing rate jobs. We are giving the non-union shops a good run for their money on big box/retail and other private sector jobs that we never used to be price competitive on. Our Book 1 is empty right now, the only JW's out of work right now don't want to work. Also more and more of our Apprentices are coming from these classifications as it is an excellent way to appraise good candidates before committing to put them through the program untested. I see the overall quality of our Apprentices, at any level, to be higher.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

So I thought I would chime in on this. I am non-union contractor who has been in discussion with the union for a while about becoming signatory.

I have a lot of paperwork from both the IBEW and NECA over all of the contracts in place for the Inside, Residential, and CE/CW guys. As a contractor in this area, we are given a list of the types of commercial jobs the CE/CW guys are allowed to perform. The CE/CW guys are journeyman, licensed and certified by the state for commercial/industrial/residential work (This means they are legally allowed to perform all aspects of electrical work). 

Here is my concern from the perspective (and I think it has been mentioned several times) of being an electrician. If I am allowed to do whatever I can by the state, then I join the Union and become a CE/CW, I am not allowed that anymore. I now can only perform certain aspects of work.

Will I always be a CE/CW....I think so. For the vast majority I think the program will pigeon hole guys to less than they deserve, and take away what they and others worked so hard for. The program sucks IMO. As a contractor it can save me some coin, but that is not what it is all about. I believe that people deserve what they are due, and this doesn't give it. I think a lot of guys attempting to make the transition will be classified to a CE/CW position because they didn't apprentice with the Union. Are they less? Not necessarily, and as such they shouldn't be as Brian put it "Second Class".

Several of the locals around here have done away with the Residential classification. I don't believe that it is because of a wage or benefit issue, as we are primarily Resi. and we pay well above the locals Resi. scale. It has more to do, IMO, with the fact that Resi. guys don't like being treated like sh*t from Inside guys (Of course there are some contractor control issues as well). The same will happen with the CE/CW guys. 

"Why are we getting $20.00 per hour less for the same type of work?"....In the end, it will fail.


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