# How can the IBEW change it's damaged reputation?



## boulengerina

I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!

PS... Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself.


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## JayH

Oh boy, here we go.


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## boulengerina

big can o' worms, huh?


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## 480sparky




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## boulengerina

None of this is for the purpose of argument... Please be as mature as possible with all replies.... PLEASE!!!


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## JayH

480sparky said:


>


 
Exactly.


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## boulengerina

480sparky said:


>


Cute


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## JayH

boulengerina said:


> None of this is for the purpose of argument... Please be as mature as possible with all replies.... PLEASE!!!


Good luck with that. :no:


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## boulengerina

JayH said:


> Good luck with that. :no:


Yeah... That's what I figured. But hey, I may be the LAST BOY SCOUT, but I don't think so. There's gotta be some folks out there that can handle it. But maybe not...


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## 480sparky

I would give you an honest reply, but you wouldn't like it. To the point you wouldn't accept it. And I'll bet to the point you'd say I was full of it.

So, like Mama used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."


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## boulengerina

480sparky said:


> I would give you an honest reply, but you wouldn't like it. To the point you wouldn't accept it. And I'll bet to the point you'd say I was full of it.
> 
> So, like Mama used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."


If it's true, I will like it. Like I said... I am not going to argue with anyone, and don't expect anyone to argue with me. I just want EVERYBODY'S take on this. Please, tell me what you think, even if it isn't nice. Some of the things the Brotherhood has done in the past were not very nice either. Just try to be professional in your response.


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## Bob Badger

OK I will throw one out here.

In my personal opinion, all the locals have to realize that when the media reports things about a particular local that it does not get reported that 'local XYZ' is picketing. No it gets reported that The Union is picketing like it is all one big Union.

My point being when say the garment workers union does something that looks bad it reflects on every local equally. That is not fair but it is the truth. The locals need to recognize that 30 seconds of News time showing a bunch of loud mouthed rude picketers hurts them much more then hours of community service.

I also fail to see how having picketers act like D-Bags helps anything at all.
.


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> OK I will throw one out here.
> 
> In my personal opinion, all the locals have to realize that when the media reports things about a particular local that it does not get reported that 'local XYZ' is picketing. No it gets reported that The Union is picketing like it is all one big Union.
> 
> My point being when say the garment workers union does something that looks bad it reflects on every local equally. That is not fair but it is the truth. The locals need to recognize that 30 seconds of News time showing a bunch of loud mouthed rude picketers hurts them much more then hours of community service.
> 
> I also fail to see how having picketers act like D-Bags helps anything at all.
> .



Good point, Bob. Better even with regards to the IBEW, as we do not strike, and (at least down south) very rarely picket. And when we do, we do our best to come across professionally and not like a bunch of D-bags. And before you say it, I know it's different in New England. Shame, too. I think that some of this behavior could be linked to their dwindling market share in NE.


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## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> I think that some of this behavior could be linked to their dwindling market share in NE.


That was my thought as well based on my experiences up here.


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> That was my thought as well based on my experiences up here.


Many years ago, the textile mills here in NC were the target of a large organizing campaign. The mills for the most part closed up and moved away, and that has DIRECTLY affected the IBEW here in the good ole North State. Like you said, different Union! And it's not like the construction companies could move anyway... All the work is here! But the mentality is VERY slow to change.


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## wildleg

the answers to this question would be the same answers you would get if you asked the following questions:
what's wrong with the government ?
what's wrong with the military ?
what's wrong with the mafia ?
what's wrong with the school system ?
what's wrong with insurance companies and banks ?


there is simply too much history, and too many issues.


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## brian john

Bob Badger said:


> OK I will throw one out here.
> 
> In my personal opinion, all the locals have to realize that when the media reports things about a particular local that it does not get reported that 'local XYZ' is picketing. No it gets reported that The Union is picketing like it is all one big Union.
> 
> .


My daughter was hassled by the local building cleaners union trying to organize the building she works in. She tells me UNION’s stink and their members are noisy, rude and a PIA. Now this is a 23 year old young lady just entering the work force and her first exposure in the work force is a negative opinion of unions, even though her father has been union since long before she was born.

When the local paper comes to take pictures of the union work force completing the local ballpark (or whatever) how about they pick a few workers that do not look like maggots. One picture in the newspaper was a bunch of workers flexing their biceps and showing their tats off with IBEW hats on. A book is judged by it's cover.

Members have to be educated to talk to open shop members. When I worked open shop I hired two union members out of work (bad recession in the 70’s). All they did was trash the open shop men and the lousy pay they were getting. Learn to treat all people including electrician nicely, do not trash their pay and bennies but teach them to politely educate their open shop fellow tradesmen about the POSITIVE aspects of the union. Also get the idea out of their heads that because a man is open shop, does not mean he can’t do decent electric work.

Have a method to weed out bad union members, like the guy I worked with, he had 50 W-2’s in one year (SERIOUS) and of course all contractors were evil in his eyes.

Educate the members that contractors are part of the union process, not the evil enemy, and not all contractors are Scrooge type owners.


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## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!
> 
> PS... Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself.



I think this is a good question and a realistic topic of conversation,I like to share some of my point of views.

1)Quality control of membership development.Stop,stop,stop with the rampant nepotism.Bring the kids in who score highest on the test and give a good first impression at there interview,regardless of who there related to.
Hold apprentices accountable for there performance in school.Stop pushing guy's through,if you fail,your out.
When organizing test guy's in and put them at the right level stop handing out journeyman tickets like there candy,also when taking in apprentices if they have past experience let them test in so they can be placed at the correct level.

2)Journeyman development.I think if the points I made above are met we would have a much bigger pool of top professional electricians and way less slugs giving the rest of us a bad name.Also we should have some sort of required continuous education for j-man.

3)Training.Stop claiming that we have the best training in the industry and show it.When trying to organize contractors or attract contractors to sign the agreement,bring them to the school,let them see what there getting when they sign.I worked non-union for 6 years before joining the local.My training consisted of a 6 month tech school and learn as you go.Now I am close to finishing the local's school(5 year program) and there is no comparison.What I got in my union training was far more intense and involved then anything ever made available to me when I was non union.Give tours of the school to both potential contractors and customers.

These are just some of my ideas off the top of my head.I think the goal is to produce the very best work force possible while being able to maintain top condition and wages.Most union electricians are honest hard working people but the percentage that are not is what people talk about and right now from my short time in it seems that percentage is to high.

I know there are some union guy's out there that are going to tare my post apart but that's fine. These are just my opinions on what we could do to improve ourselves.I know I might come off a bit to critical of my own union but for what it's worth,organizing in to my local was one of the best moves I could ever have made.My life definitely changed for the better when I joined.But there's always room for improvement.

Oh yae I'm not a contractor.


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## boulengerina

wildleg said:


> the answers to this question would be the same answers you would get if you asked the following questions:
> what's wrong with the government ?
> what's wrong with the military ?
> what's wrong with the mafia ?
> what's wrong with the school system ?
> what's wrong with insurance companies and banks ?
> 
> 
> there is simply too much history, and too many issues.


If that is your mentality, then you are certainly entitled to it. But let me ask you this... If everything that you listed is so screwed up, isn't it worth fixing? Shouldn't we try? Or should we allow the powers that be force us down a rabbit hole and into third-world status?


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## boulengerina

brian john said:


> My daughter was hassled by the local building cleaners union trying to organize the building she works in. She tells me UNION’s stink and their members are noisy, rude and a PIA. Now this is a 23 year old young lady just entering the work force and her first exposure in the work force is a negative opinion of unions, even though her father has been union since long before she was born.
> 
> When the local paper comes to take pictures of the union work force completing the local ballpark (or whatever) how about they pick a few workers that do not look like maggots. One picture in the newspaper was a bunch of workers flexing their biceps and showing their tats off with IBEW hats on. A book is judged by it's cover.
> 
> Members have to be educated to talk to open shop members. When I worked open shop I hired two union members out of work (bad recession in the 70’s). All they did was trash the open shop men and the lousy pay they were getting. Learn to treat all people including electrician nicely, do not trash their pay and bennies but teach them to politely educate their open shop fellow tradesmen about the POSITIVE aspects of the union. Also get the idea out of their heads that because a man is open shop, does not mean he can’t do decent electric work.
> 
> Have a method to weed out bad union members, like the guy I worked with, he had 50 W-2’s in one year (SERIOUS) and of course all contractors were evil in his eyes.
> 
> Educate the members that contractors are part of the union process, not the evil enemy, and not all contractors are Scrooge type owners.


My experience with Service Industries is much the same as your daughter's. I guess it goes back to what Bob said about the press and the "one union" mentality.

50 w-2's in a year? No $#!+??? That's deplorable. 

Thanks for your input, Brian.:thumbsup:


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## brian john

All great points



slickvic277 said:


> i think this is a good question and a realistic topic of conversation,i like to share some of my point of views.
> 
> 1)quality control of membership development.stop,stop,stop with the rampant nepotism.bring the kids in who score highest on the test and give a good first impression at there interview,regardless of who there related to.
> Hold apprentices accountable for there performance in school.stop pushing guy's through,if you fail,your out.
> When organizing test guy's in and put them at the right level stop handing out journeyman tickets like there candy,also when taking in apprentices if they have past experience let them test in so they can be placed at the correct level.
> 
> 2)journeyman development.i think if the points i made above are met we would have a much bigger pool of top professional electricians and way less slugs giving the rest of us a bad name.also we should have some sort of required continuous education for j-man.
> 
> 3)training.stop claiming that we have the best training in the industry and show it.when trying to organize contractors or attract contractors to sign the agreement,bring them to the school,let them see what there getting when they sign.i worked non-union for 6 years before joining the local.my training consisted of a 6 month tech school and learn as you go.now i am close to finishing the local's school(5 year program) and there is no comparison.what i got in my union training was far more intense and involved then anything ever made available to me when i was non union.give tours of the school to both potential contractors and customers.
> 
> These are just some of my ideas off the top of my head.i think the goal is to produce the very best work force possible while being able to maintain top condition and wages.most union electricians are honest hard working people but the percentage that are not is what people talk about and right now from my short time in it seems that percentage is to high.
> 
> I know there are some union guy's out there that are going to tare my post apart but that's fine. These are just my opinions on what we could do to improve ourselves.i know i might come off a bit to critical of my own union but for what it's worth,organizing in to my local was one of the best moves i could ever have made.my life definitely changed for the better when i joined.but there's always room for improvement.
> 
> Oh yae i'm not a contractor.


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## brian john

boulengerina said:


> My experience with Service Industries is much the same as your daughter's. I guess it goes back to what Bob said about the press and the "one union" mentality.
> 
> 50 w-2's in a year? No $#!+??? That's deplorable.
> 
> Thanks for your input, Brian.:thumbsup:


I realize his situation was rare but he is one example of a guy that should be booted.

We need to be positive in our approach to organizing; giving an open shop contractor a bad taste in his mouth will do little to advance the organizing.


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## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> I think this is a good question and a realistic topic of conversation,I like to share some of my point of views.
> 
> 
> 
> I know there are some union guy's out there that are going to tare my post apart but that's fine. These are just my opinions on what we could do to improve ourselves.I know I might come off a bit to critical of my own union but for what it's worth,organizing in to my local was one of the best moves I could ever have made.My life definitely changed for the better when I joined.But there's always room for improvement.
> 
> Oh yae I'm not a contractor.


Quite alright that you are not a contractor. Everything you said seems right on target, and I could not agree more. Anyone that slams your post needs to do some soul-searching, and not try to make themselves feel good by putting someone else down. 

Congrats on making it to your 5th year. Maintain your current attitude, and give 'em 8 for 8, and you will certainly not be "one of THOSE guys"! Good Luck, and thanks for the feedback.


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## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> Quite alright that you are not a contractor. Everything you said seems right on target, and I could not agree more. Anyone that slams your post needs to do some soul-searching, and not try to make themselves feel good by putting someone else down.
> 
> Congrats on making it to your 5th year. Maintain your current attitude, and give 'em 8 for 8, and you will certainly not be "one of THOSE guys"! Good Luck, and thanks for the feedback.



thanks.:thumbsup:


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## boulengerina

brian john said:


> We need to be positive in our approach to organizing; giving an open shop contractor a bad taste in his mouth will do little to advance the organizing.[/FONT][/COLOR]


Right you are! Seems so simple... Why don't we get it? The 5th year guy (Slickvic) that replied basically laid out our plan here at this local, and it's working. Hell, we can't even kick a guy out here in NC, due to some stupid state laws, but we still weed 'em out!


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

How bout we start at the top. One man one vote. Maybe with good leadership things can start to change. Not a big fan of Mr. Hill.


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## slickvic277

smitty1358 said:


> How bout we start at the top. One man one vote. Maybe with good leadership things can start to change. Not a big fan of Mr. Hill.


Nor am I,the biggest problem is the amount of power granted to the IP,read the bylaws.We need to change them to get change at the top,hard to do.
I would like to see a young foward thinking guy running the international not these dinosaurs with there dinosaur train of thought.


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## brian john

smitty1358 said:


> How bout we start at the top. One man one vote. Maybe with good leadership things can start to change. Not a big fan of Mr. Hill.


 
I hear this alot BUT what is the big issues with Mr Hill. I thought he was trying to take the IBEW in a positive direction?


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

Bylaws, you mean our Constitution.


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

I dont wanna get off on a rant bout Mr. Ed, but we can start with his CE/CW program to gain market share. Code of excellence, no rules for double booking, I could go on but it would be off topic.


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## slickvic277

brian john said:


> I hear this alot BUT what is the big issues with Mr Hill. I thought he was trying to take the IBEW in a positive direction?


The one thing that bothers me about are president is he to quick to interfere with local unions affairs.For example my local by market share is considered the number 1 or 2 local in the country.The one thing that we do that is vastly different to everyone else is journeyman have the right to if s.o.j(if you remember that thread).When one of our struggling sister locals decided to vote this practice in,in an attempt to improve there local,Mr.Hill decided to swoop in and stop it.Referral only he said.

I know the only reason he has aloud us to continue this practice is because of our high market share and record breaking man hours.
This is a practice as old as our local and our members feel strongly about it.I have know doubt that if we slipped even for a moment he would swoop in assume control and run our local into the ground.

Ask them guys from Beaver,PA. about Mr.Hill and how he can destroy a local.


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## slickvic277

smitty1358 said:


> Bylaws, you mean our Constitution.


Yes.


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## boulengerina

smitty1358 said:


> How bout we start at the top. One man one vote. Maybe with good leadership things can start to change. Not a big fan of Mr. Hill.


Too rhetorical for this discussion... be more specific... What's the problem? What is President Hill doing wrong?


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## slickvic277

smitty1358 said:


> I dont wanna get off on a rant bout Mr. Ed, but we can start with his CE/CW program to gain market share. Code of excellence, no rules for double booking, I could go on but it would be off topic.


The ce/cw program is a giant step backwards and is hypocritical to every J-man rate in the IBEW.Actually that would be a great topic for a new thread.


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

Go back to post #30.


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## boulengerina

smitty1358 said:


> but we can start with his CE/CW program to gain market share. Code of excellence, no rules for double booking, I could go on but it would be off topic.


What is wrong with the CE/CW program? I'm not being an ass, I just want to know your thoughts. And none of this is off topic. This kind of feedback is exactly what I was looking for!:thumbsup:


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## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> What is wrong with the CE/CW program? I'm not being an ass, I just want to know your thoughts. And none of this is off topic. This kind of feedback is exactly what I was looking for!:thumbsup:


Theres a few things I don't like about it.The first is it completely discredits the apprenticeship and the Journeyman alike.It sends the message that you don't need our training to be "the best trained in the industry".Which is the exact selling point of the IBEW.It also devides the members amongst themselves,apprentices feeling that there being stepped over and journeyman feeling there being cut out which in turn will turn the ce/cw against both the apprentices and journeyman alike.Division amongst the members is the first sign in a failing organization.

I like how my local handles organizing.I'll use me as an example.I had tech school education and 6 years commercial/industrial experience but I did not go through a state approved apprentice program so I didn't have an official Journeyman card.What they did was they brought me in at the next higher rate then what I was making non union(which was 50% of the j-man rate)and they credited me with 2000 field hours towards the program.But I still had to go through the entire apprentice schooling.It didn't bother me as I don't knock education.I came in at $24 per hour which was more then what i was getting non union.If I was brought in as a ce/cw(which my local doesn't do) I still be at the same rate and would miss out on the education.
And besides I thought education is what the IBEW is all about.


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## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> Theres a few things I don't like about it.The first is it completely discredits the apprenticeship and the Journeyman alike.It sends the message that you don't need our training to be "the best trained in the industry".Which is the exact selling point of the IBEW.It also devides the members amongst themselves,apprentices feeling that there being stepped over and journeyman feeling there being cut out which in turn will turn the ce/cw against both the apprentices and journeyman alike.Division amongst the members is the first sign in a failing organization.
> 
> I like how my local handles organizing.I'll use me as an example.I had tech school education and 6 years commercial/industrial experience but I did not go through a state approved apprentice program so I didn't have an official Journeyman card.What they did was they brought me in at the next higher rate then what I was making non union(which was 50% of the j-man rate)and they credited me with 2000 field hours towards the program.But I still had to go through the entire apprentice schooling.It didn't bother me as I don't knock education.I came in at $24 per hour which was more then what i was getting non union.If I was brought in as a ce/cw(which my local doesn't do) I still be at the same rate and would miss out on the education.
> And besides I thought education is what the IBEW is all about.


All good points... What would be your advice to a Local facing a non-Union market that runs ratios of 1 to 9? (That's one JW for every nine helpers!). I've been to a lot of southern Locals where this is the case, and if they have a typical northern ratio of, say, 3 to 1 (3 JW's to every App), they simply cannot compete. 

Again, I'm not being an ass... Just playing "devil's advocate".

And do the CE/CW's advance as quickly as apprentices do?


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

You nailed it. Not saying you will but if you ever have to hit the road, Youll see first hand how some locals got this CE/CW thing jammed in there you know what. Not good.


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## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> All good points... What would be your advice to a Local facing a non-Union market that runs ratios of 1 to 9? (That's one JW for every nine helpers!). I've been to a lot of southern Locals where this is the case, and if they have a typical northern ratio of, say, 3 to 1 (3 JW's to every App), they simply cannot compete.
> 
> Again, I'm not being an ass... Just playing "devil's advocate".
> 
> And do the CE/CW's advance as quickly as apprentices do?


I have limited education on the ce/cw classifications but I believe that they do not have to progress if they don't want to and that is were the danger lies.I know that we have it tough in the south and it is an uphill battle and I don't pretend to have the answers but I feel this new classification is not a step in the right direction.If it was system designed to get working adults into some sort of advanced apprentice system then yae,maybe it could work.I don't know Unions in the south are being attacked from all sides and I don't think there is one solution.


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## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> If it was system designed to get working adults into some sort of advanced apprentice system then yae,maybe it could work.I don't know Unions in the south are being attacked from all sides and I don't think there is one solution.


To address something you said earlier regarding divisions in the Brotherhood... I've worked around CW/CE's, and as long as they are members in good standing, they are fine with me. I don't feel threatened by apprentices, so I certainly don't feel threatened by CW/CE's. If they can take my job... they can have it.


To my understanding, it works like this... If you are green, you are a cw. If you are a "mechanic", then you are a CE. There's like seven or eight or nine levels to it, all separated by 2000 hours. And when they hit the top, they have to pass some big scary test to become JW's. They can advance, but don't have to, but the ones I have worked around ALL WANT TO ADVANCE. That brings me to my next point... Training.

I don't know of many locals that are training these guys. And most are working them. If you trained them some, and worked them, maybe you could get apprentices from their ranks. When I started out, the only way in was the apprenticeship. My 1st year class started out with like 35 guys, and graduated 9, one of which transferred in. My home Local (& local NECA Chapter) wasted a bunch of money on a bunch of guys who had never worked construction a day in their lives, and had no idea what they wanted to be when they grew up!!! Imagine if you could see them work, and witness how many advancement classes they come to (as advancement is voluntary), and make the good ones apprentices. It would save the JATC's a lot of money, and I think that the drop-out rate would decline.


I knew this was a good idea... Here, we can change the world!!!:laughing:


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## B4T

First thing the IBEW needs to do is get rid of the 25' RAT, lawn chairs, American flags, and the sign.. "XYZ IS HURTING OUT COMMUNITY"

All of the above is what goes on when a job goes to NON-UNION trades.

I can understand the UNION is upset about losing work, but all that stuff paints a negative picture of UNIONS.

You never see a NON-UNION trade do ANYTHING about losing work to a UNION shop...


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

Never saw a sign that said......XYZ was hurting the community. But I have walked lines holding a sign saying contractor XYZ pays sub standard wages. WE did not have a 25' rat. lawn chairs or flags.


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## alann53

boulengerina said:


> I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!
> 
> PS... Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself.


Are you serious? Is this a joke? You want to know what employers (contractors) think of unions? You think you can do something to improve relations between the union and employers? You think the union is to blame for their bad reputation? 
Given the choice no employer wants to deal with a union. Why would they? Unions are advocates for workers. Unions are always demanding more money and better benefits. Unions file grievances against employers and prevent employers from firing workers. 
That said, I am a union member and believe unions are an important part of the nations economy. Given the differing goals of employers and workers there will always be friction between the parties. 
The job of the employer is to maximize profit for the owner's and the union's job is to capture as much of that profit as possible.


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## oldman

there are a few simple things:

1) realize that no work is "Union Work"...there is no entitlement to any particular work...

2) deliver what you promise...promise me the best men in the industry? then deliver me the best men in the industry...don't send me overpriced kids that I have to babysit as much as the guys who work for 1/2 the rate...

3) realize that pay needs to be commensurate with ability and productivity...get a tiered scale for JW's (like you have for apprentices)...here in NJ, an A journeyman has a total package of over $70/hr...plus employer taxes...a 1st year JW typically is not as valuable to me as a 10 yr JW...but I have to pay them the same rate...

these 3 items will change the industry as a whole...


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## Bob Badger

alann53 said:


> You think the union is to blame for their bad reputation?


Yes without a doubt.


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## B4T

smitty1358 said:


> Never saw a sign that said......XYZ was hurting the community. But I have walked lines holding a sign saying contractor XYZ pays sub standard wages. WE did not have a 25' rat. lawn chairs or flags.


The XYZ would be the name of the store having the work done.

Twice last year it was KOHL'S who got the RAT treatment.


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## william1978

Hey Boulengerina Do you work for PECI?


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## user4818

Black4Truck said:


> Twice last year it was KOHL'S who got the RAT treatment.


I live in a heavily union area but the vast majority of retail is done by the medium and large non-union contractors here. They pulled the rug right out from under the union in that market and are working on others.


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## B4T

Peter D said:


> I live in a heavily union area but the vast majority of retail is done by the medium and large non-union contractors here. They pulled the rug right out from under the union in that market and are working on others.


Did the UNION put up the RAT, flags, lawn chairs, and "HURTING THE COMMUNITY" sign??


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## user4818

Black4Truck said:


> Did the UNION put up the RAT, flags, lawn chairs, and "HURTING THE COMMUNITY" sign??


If they did, I highly doubt anyone cared. I know they picketed a supermarket near me a few years ago and they do picket non-union jobs on a fairly regular basis, but otherwise I'm not sure.


----------



## B4T

Here is the story that goes with the pic

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...embers-rally-in-front-of-clare-rose-1.1380853


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

I see nothing wrong with pickets, hand billing. I do see the when a company hires out of state contractors it can hurt the community and local working peeps. Tell me in that state they have no one that can do that work? What ever craft it may be? So I say yes they do hurt local families.


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## brian john

alann53 said:


> Are you serious? Is this a joke? You want to know what employers (contractors) think of unions? You think you can do something to improve relations between the union and employers? You think the union is to blame for their bad reputation?
> Given the choice no employer wants to deal with a union. Why would they? Unions are advocates for workers. Unions are always demanding more money and better benefits. Unions file grievances against employers and prevent employers from firing workers.
> That said, I am a union member and believe unions are an important part of the nations economy. Given the differing goals of employers and workers there will always be friction between the parties.
> The job of the employer is to maximize profit for the owner's and the union's job is to capture as much of that profit as possible.


As an employer I have to tell you, YOU ARE WRONG (not completely but wrong none the less), with the current status quo YES to some extent, but that needs to change. Show employers that the union advocate is a positive force in the work place.

There are many employers that would embrace a union that had a more positive attitude.


----------



## brian john

smitty1358 said:


> I see nothing wrong with pickets, hand billing. I do see the when a company hires out of state contractors it can hurt the community and local working peeps. Tell me in that state they have no one that can do that work? What ever craft it may be? So I say yes they do hurt local families.


So you prefer to limit freedom? Now that seems very American. We have union contractors from Florida, NC and baltimore working in my area SHOULD THEY BE BANNED?


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## william1978

brian john said:


> So you prefer to limit freedom? Now that seems very American. We have union contractors from Florida, NC and baltimore working in my area SHOULD THEY BE BANNED?


 Brian you are in Local 26 right?


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## JacksonburgFarmer

Well, as a contractor whom was trained (5 yr apprenticeship) in the IBEW, and has started his own buisness, and yet to sign w/ the IBEW, here are several points.....

1) JW and apprentices should be able to solicite for work, and ECs should be able to hire who they want off the list. Yeah, I know the theory of backstabing, shoprockets, ect, but overall, it would be better. 

2) ALL MEMBERS have to understand and believe and work in a partnership with a contractor, instead of working against us. So what if we occasionally make a good profit, look at what we have on the line. 

3) Training needs to be more hands on. You dont/cant learn everything from a book. In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn. You cant learn how to bend pipe from a book. The idea yes.....but how to actually do it....no.

4) All memebers need to learn to be glad to have a job, and loose the attitude that the employer is lucky to have them. I have 2 guys working for me whom I found OUTSIDE of the hall.


----------



## JayH

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Well, as a contractor whom was trained (5 yr apprenticeship) in the IBEW, and has started his own buisness, and yet to sign w/ the IBEW, here are several points.....
> 
> 1) JW and apprentices should be able to solicite for work, and ECs should be able to hire who they want off the list. Yeah, I know the theory of backstabing, shoprockets, *ect*, but overall, it would be better.
> 
> 2) ALL MEMBERS have to understand and believe and work in a partnership with a contractor, instead of working against us. So what if we occasionally make a good profit, look at what we have on the line.
> 
> 3) Training needs to be more hands on. You dont/cant learn everything from a book. In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn. You cant learn how to bend pipe from a book. The idea yes.....but how to actually do it....no.
> 
> 4) All memebers need to learn to be glad to have a job, and *loose* the attitude that the employer is lucky to have them. I have 2 guys working for me whom I found OUTSIDE of the hall.


What the hell does this post mean?

_ In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn._

You have two guys working for you from outside the hall and your non-signatory. Wow big surprise there. What would be surprising is if you had hands from the hall working for you.

It's etc. not ect.

It's lose, not loose.


----------



## Charlie K

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Well, as a contractor whom was trained (5 yr apprenticeship) in the IBEW, and has started his own buisness, and yet to sign w/ the IBEW, here are several points.....
> 
> 1) JW and apprentices should be able to solicite for work, and ECs should be able to hire who they want off the list. Yeah, I know the theory of backstabing, shoprockets, ect, but overall, it would be better.
> It sounds like a good idea but would be tough to do.
> 2) ALL MEMBERS have to understand and believe and work in a partnership with a contractor, instead of working against us. So what if we occasionally make a good profit, look at what we have on the line.
> The contractor needs to big the biggest part of this. The management of the company I work for partners with the employees. From the apprentices up.
> 3) Training needs to be more hands on. You dont/cant learn everything from a book. In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn. You cant learn how to bend pipe from a book. The idea yes.....but how to actually do it....no.
> Most locals have their own dedicated training centers and they get hands on training with pipe, tray etc. My son recently topped out and I was more than impressed with the program. You can also see it in the apprentices on your job.
> 4) All memebers need to learn to be glad to have a job, and loose the attitude that the employer is lucky to have them. I have 2 guys working for me whom I found OUTSIDE of the hall.


 I tell the apprentices its not a job its a career. Its hard to explain to the guys that they can be replaced if something happens to them. I call them all Team members and there is no I in team. I can send a man back to the Hall if he cant do the job and get one who can. 

Charlie


----------



## brian john

JayH said:


> What the hell does this post mean?
> 
> _ In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn._
> 
> You have two guys working for you from outside the hall and your non-signatory. Wow big surprise there. What would be surprising is if you had hands from the hall working for you.
> 
> It's etc. not ect.
> 
> It's lose, not loose.


what are you missing I got it.


----------



## alann53

brian john said:


> As an employer I have to tell you, YOU ARE WRONG (not completely but wrong none the less), with the current status quo YES to some extent, but that needs to change. Show employers that the union advocate is a positive force in the work place.
> 
> There are many employers that would embrace a union that had a more positive attitude.


I am an advocate of unions. I am a union member and an officer of a union. I am just pointing out that from that most employers would prefer to not have unionized employees.


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## JayH

brian john said:


> what are you missing I got it.


I don't get it.

Is he saying that for a full year of the five year apprenticeship they are relegated to shop duty?

I've never seen nor heard that. Our apprentices are typically required to rotate every six months so they get experience (hopefully) at all levels.


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## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

Mr. Brian John, your missing my point. If a company hires an out of town contractor that is non-union, chances are they will bring there labor pool with them from out state. If a out of town signatory contractor comes in and gets the job he will most likely hire out of the hall. What part of that dont you get?


----------



## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

If you ECs want your guy so bad, letter him out off the out of work list! If you cant pay him the extra 10 or 15%, then is he that much of an asset to your shop? Stop bitc...%$en bout not getin your guy off the out off work list, just pay him.


----------



## RyanB

brian john said:


> There are many employers that would embrace a union that had a more positive attitude.


I recently completed training at a school jointly run by the IBEW and ECABC. The NJATC material we used in class has discussion topics at the end of each chapter. Here's some examples directly from the course material:



> What can you do to help your employer gain additional work opportunities for craft workers?
> 
> Why is it so important to avoid waste of materials and loss of tools?
> 
> What do you do, or can you do, to help convince the customer that he or she should feel good about having contracted with a signatory employer (your union)? Why would the customer want you on his or her next job?
> 
> Considering your work ethic (attendance, performance, attitude, etc.) compared to those of others in your class (knowing you had to select one person to terminate from your job due to a reduction in workforce), who would you be likely to terminate?


My favourite was "If you were the customer, would you be happy with the quality and quantity of work you did this week?" A few people in the class had to think about that one.

The instructors from the IBEW constantly drill into the students that punctuality and a strong work ethic is the key to staying employed.


----------



## smitty1358

*IBEW change*

Also I must say brian john, your small suit case of tools and meters dont impress. Any contractor worth his salt has more than that. The trunk slammers in our local have more than that. By the way clean out your fireplace/shop/garage. Looks sloppy.


----------



## brian john

smitty1358 said:


> Mr. Brian John, your missing my point. If a company hires an out of town contractor that is non-union, chances are they will bring there labor pool with them from out state. If a out of town signatory contractor comes in and gets the job he will most likely hire out of the hall. What part of that dont you get?


I get it but I do not give a rat's ass. In this country if the contractor meets the local requirements he is permitted to do this. Often Americans refer to this as freedom of association.

What part of that don't you get?


----------



## brian john

alann53 said:


> I am an advocate of unions. I am a union member and an officer of a union. I am just pointing out that from that most employers would prefer to not have unionized employees.


Not in my experience what they do not want is a lack of choice in employees, and union hassles?

Most like the idea of good training and benefits for their men, what many fear including me would be an IBEW monopoly, which would hamstring the employers.


----------



## brian john

smitty1358 said:


> If you ECs want your guy so bad, letter him out off the out of work list! If you cant pay him the extra 10 or 15%, then is he that much of an asset to your shop? Stop bitc...%$en bout not getin your guy off the out off work list, just pay him.


What we do not want is the LONG LIST of slackers, UNION LAWYERS and general trouble makers that DO EXIST.


----------



## brian john

smitty1358 said:


> Also I must say brian john, your small suit case of tools and meters dont impress. Any contractor worth his salt has more than that. The trunk slammers in our local have more than that. By the way clean out your fireplace/shop/garage. Looks sloppy.


I would bet the following: my test sets cost as much as your house, my IR cameras cost more than your total worth and my hand tools that you laugh at, make me more in a month than you make in a year.

Now if you'd like to call me out regarding my profession I am sure I come out on top. 

I follow the electrical portion of this forum fairly closely and to my knowledge I cannot think of anything outstanding you have posted regarding our chosen profession.

Now we can stick to the topic at hand or make personal attacks, up to you.

And after reading this one post I have to assume you are maybe a first year apprentice? Or and not slamming you but seriously are you that ignorant of our profession.



> All you rope jockeys out there, electric meter= mech. device! Only reads the highest leg.Balance you loads. Save your customers money. If the load is not balanced lets talk about how I can save you money,with a device between the line and the load.


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## boulengerina

alann53 said:


> You think the union is to blame for their bad reputation?
> 
> Given the choice no employer wants to deal with a union. Why would they?


The IBEW is not SOLELY to blame for it's reputation, but we haven't exactly done a whole lot nationally to foster good will, either. 

And you are dead wrong on the second note. There are MANY shops that are Union and darned proud of it. Why would they be? Have you ever considered the amount of money we SAVE a contractor? Shared cost of training, the handling of ALL the benefit money, and the elimination of a large HR department are just a few of the perks to being a Union contractor. As Union members, e cost more by the hour, but if the Local does it's job well, we save the contractors a lot, too.

And I am extremely serious, and this certainly is no joke. What we are discussing here is the livelihood of some 750,000 members of the IBEW. And the number IS growing.


----------



## boulengerina

oldman said:


> there are a few simple things:
> 
> 1) realize that no work is "Union Work"...there is no entitlement to any particular work...
> 
> 2) deliver what you promise...promise me the best men in the industry? then deliver me the best men in the industry...don't send me overpriced kids that I have to babysit as much as the guys who work for 1/2 the rate...
> 
> 3) realize that pay needs to be commensurate with ability and productivity...get a tiered scale for JW's (like you have for apprentices)...here in NJ, an A journeyman has a total package of over $70/hr...plus employer taxes...a 1st year JW typically is not as valuable to me as a 10 yr JW...but I have to pay them the same rate...
> 
> these 3 items will change the industry as a whole...


Thank you for your thoughts, oldman. #'s 1 & 2 I completely agree with, and #3 deserves some consideration, as you have made a VERY good point. Being honest with myself, I realize that I wasn't worth as much my first year as a JW as I am now. But if you bring this idea to a Local, they are likely to consider their current rate for a JW as the baseline, and increase the JW rate for the more experienced guys. 

What do you think about CE/CW's?


----------



## boulengerina

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Well, as a contractor whom was trained (5 yr apprenticeship) in the IBEW, and has started his own buisness, and yet to sign w/ the IBEW, here are several points.....
> 
> 1) JW and apprentices should be able to solicite for work, and ECs should be able to hire who they want off the list. Yeah, I know the theory of backstabing, shoprockets, ect, but overall, it would be better.
> 
> 2) ALL MEMBERS have to understand and believe and work in a partnership with a contractor, instead of working against us. So what if we occasionally make a good profit, look at what we have on the line.
> 
> 3) Training needs to be more hands on. You dont/cant learn everything from a book. In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn. You cant learn how to bend pipe from a book. The idea yes.....but how to actually do it....no.
> 
> 4) All memebers need to learn to be glad to have a job, and loose the attitude that the employer is lucky to have them. I have 2 guys working for me whom I found OUTSIDE of the hall.


Some Locals now allow the EC to pick from the top four on the Book. It's a start. We cannot throw out the book system completely, because of some of the things you mentions in #1. Don't you have "right of refusal"? 

My Local constantly preaches to us that to be a good Union member, you must be a good employee, and protect your contractor, because a lot more than YOUR job is on the line. The jobs of all the brothers and sisters working with you are on the line, too.

Apprentices SHOULD be getting OJT while in school. That was how my apprenticeship went, and everyone else I know. Am I to understand that you went through apprenticeship w/o on-the-job-training?

And some of the best hands I have ever seen came from OUTSIDE the hall, because the non-Union guys HAVE to want it more. Not much (if anything at all) is provided for them, and typically, they have to go and seek knowledge on their own. And they do not normally have the "entitlement issues" that so many of our apprentices do.


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## boulengerina

*Gettin' Personal*



smitty1358 said:


> Also I must say brian john, your small suit case of tools and meters dont impress. Any contractor worth his salt has more than that. The trunk slammers in our local have more than that. By the way clean out your fireplace/shop/garage. Looks sloppy.


C'mon, Smitty. Not cool. Keep it mature and civil. I am trying (and hopefully others) to learn something here, and this is counterproductive. I appreciate your input, but keep it CIVIL!


----------



## oldman

boulengerina said:


> #3 deserves some consideration, as you have made a VERY good point. Being honest with myself, I realize that I wasn't worth as much my first year as a JW as I am now. But if you bring this idea to a Local, they are likely to consider their current rate for a JW as the baseline, and increase the JW rate for the more experienced guys.
> 
> What do you think about CE/CW's?


i would be ok with this if the current rate wasn't $70.88 for a JW in 102 before employer payroll taxes of approximately 12%....which puts total cost at +/- $79.40/hr....

it makes it very difficult for the unions to compete on private work...especially when the JW feels entitled to that rate, and that he doesn't have to earn it....

realize one thing, it's not the rate, it's the productivity level...

if the end user is willing to pay $100/receptacle for a project, then to make money, we have to install that receptacle for $100....

If I pay a guy $25/hr, he can take 2 hrs to do that receptacle, and I still have $50 left for OH/P...

If I pay a guy $80/hr, and he takes 2 hrs to do that receptacle, I just lost a ton of money...

So, while I agree with the 'charge more' theory, the reality is when doing new work, off prints, it's apples to apples and the price dictates...

so, that union JW better install that receptacle in 0.6 hrs so I still have $50 left for OH/P....

simple math....


----------



## boulengerina

oldman said:


> So, while I agree with the 'charge more' theory, the reality is when doing new work, off prints, it's apples to apples and the price dictates...
> 
> so, that union JW better install that receptacle in 0.6 hrs so I still have $50 left for OH/P....
> 
> simple math....


Assuming that you are talking about new construction, it shouldn't take more than 20 or 30 mins to install a receptacle. Any longer than that, and I send the guy back to the hall, unless there are some very "extenuating circumstances"! 

I think the root of all these problems stem from an "entitlement" attitude. My Local is addressing this issue by encouraging the EC's to FIRE (not lay-off) unproductive JW's, apprentices, and CE/CW's, and if fired twice in a year, they come before the Executive Board to find out why. Most feel that everyone hates them, and they are usually right, as everyone is tired of carrying their sorry a$$.

To all you "brothers" with the entitlement attitude... You are entitled to earn your keep, and nothing else. Come out to my job, and you will find that out very quickly. In order for the Brotherhood to survive, we really do have to act like brothers (or at least concerned friends). We must realize now that it isn't just our butts on the line, but the butts of all our brothers and sisters on the job. If you drag, then the contractor loses, and has no motive to find new work. WE MUST BE COMPETITIVE!!! If we aren't, then this organization will go down like the Titanic, and there will be no Union. Do the right thing!


----------



## minibdr

Hi Oldman I am an A journyman.The employer I am currently with and I have become friends Over the years I have been employed with him these are some of the things he enjoys about being associated with the IBEW. Since I have been on his payroll I have engineered and installed a cathodic protection system on a three mile long 66`` piping system. I have installed numorous cat 5 e data systems with fiber switching we did all fiber splicing and pinning. We have done airport work, towers and terminals as well as runway lighting and controlls,school work, hospital work, pollution plant water treatment work .We install manholes,confined space, high voltage splicing. Intrusion alarm, fire alarm,PA system, subway switches and traffic controls,lighting,power,escalators power and controls elevator power and controls. Antenna and communication systems for PD ,FD, transit and private companies. I operate boom trucks when installing street lighting scissor lifts when working high, articulating lifts for same. All testing AKA mega, data, impedance, high pot. The boss particularly enjoys when we are running big pipe such as six inch gal and we cut and thread before we bend to specific lengths. I run work ,perform work and instruct on installations. I am an Emergency medical technician voluntarily which is a plus on the job especially in our dangerous field. I have been on stadium jobs and 300 bay bus depot jobs. I have built houses and wired apartment buildings, hospitals and libraries. We install FRE,PVC,gal,emt,MC,BX,smurf,PVC coated gal,love the explosion proof installations. Quadlogic metering, traffic pattern, garage doors and I mean industrial **** with the traffic systems around large traffic areas air port landing towers twice, have worked on two cogen plants, miles of heat trace, fueling stations with all associated controls on that note waste holding tank systems with all associated controls. seven train stations, Fire suppression systems, white noise systems .Theatrical power and lighting at shows and in theaters new installations and set ups.Did two movie theaters,store fronts,climate control systems, boiler installs gas and oil burner installs. I believe in fast efficient,neat work and if I don`t get it I will get someone that does the union backs me 100% on that. I teach at the apprenticeship and continue my own education whenever possible. These are some of the reasons the boss likes calling the hall for a man I~am a realist and so is he 8 times out of 10 he will get a man with my skills the other 2 we either find something we can use the man for or let him go with a report for retraining. As for pay well we are better paid then you have described and if I have a bad day and he loses money on a recipticle well he`ll make it up and then some on the next one and he knows it. The profesionalism he gets he makes a ton from I have seen his books and his lexus lol. Hope to see you in the field someday.


----------



## BDB

minidbr, 
IF the union had 50% of its members as qualified and with the same "want to" as you then there would be no problem, but sad to say that is not the case. Here we are lucky if they can even fill my calls and if they do (which they have not done for the last 4-5 years)then it is usually with a guy that has a JW card but is more like a 2nd or 3rd year helper.


----------



## Sparky480

Ill throw my 2 cents in if these points have already been hit i guess It will be a repeat 


 Increase Productivity (cut dead weight)
Make an incentive for being a good electrician
Put a 3 Strike policy in effect
Make it easier to fire the dead weight
Take less apprentices
Teach apprentices better if they are not willing to learn fire them
Make it beneficial for the non union to join no matter what everyone would work better together!


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## BDB

deleted for double post


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> Since I have been on his payroll I have engineered and installed a cathodic protection system on a three mile long 66`` piping system. I have installed numorous cat 5 e data systems with fiber switching we did all fiber splicing and pinning. .....


I bet you can't even wire a 3-way switch. :laughing:


----------



## rdr

Peter D said:


> I bet you can't even wire a 3-way switch. :laughing:


And you can't hang a j-box in a crooked building. :no:


----------



## user4818

rdr said:


> And you can't hang a j-box in a crooked building. :no:


My skills, or lack thereof, are well know here. :laughing: Minibdr talks a big game but can he deliver the goods?


----------



## wildleg

what can the union do to repair its reputation ?

simple - do what it takes to create the reputation that you think it deserves (emphasis on do). reputations are usually deserved and based on fact. If the union does what it says, provides what it claims, and (here's the big one), manages its workers to provide the image that it wants, then the reputation will (deservedly) follow. 

(note - part of its bad reputation comes from guys like minibdr who rant and rave and shoot their mouth off just like he has in the above posts. he attacks people he doesn't know and claims they don't know jack because they might not be gung ho about the union, just like above. I know a guy whose entire fleet of (20+) trucks was set on fire in one night because of a union dispute up in NY. wounds like this aren't likely to heal anytime soon, and loudmouth jackoffs like this don't make it any easier.)

just my 2 cents


----------



## oldman

minibdr said:


> Hi Oldman I am an A journyman.The employer I am currently with and I have become friends Over the years I have been employed with him these are some of the things he enjoys about being associated with the IBEW. Since I have been on his payroll I have engineered and installed a cathodic protection system on a three mile long 66`` piping system. I have installed numorous cat 5 e data systems with fiber switching we did all fiber splicing and pinning. We have done airport work, towers and terminals as well as runway lighting and controlls,school work, hospital work, pollution plant water treatment work .We install manholes,confined space, high voltage splicing. Intrusion alarm, fire alarm,PA system, subway switches and traffic controls,lighting,power,escalators power and controls elevator power and controls. Antenna and communication systems for PD ,FD, transit and private companies. I operate boom trucks when installing street lighting scissor lifts when working high, articulating lifts for same. All testing AKA mega, data, impedance, high pot. The boss particularly enjoys when we are running big pipe such as six inch gal and we cut and thread before we bend to specific lengths. I run work ,perform work and instruct on installations. I am an Emergency medical technician voluntarily which is a plus on the job especially in our dangerous field. I have been on stadium jobs and 300 bay bus depot jobs. I have built houses and wired apartment buildings, hospitals and libraries. We install FRE,PVC,gal,emt,MC,BX,smurf,PVC coated gal,love the explosion proof installations. Quadlogic metering, traffic pattern, garage doors and I mean industrial **** with the traffic systems around large traffic areas air port landing towers twice, have worked on two cogen plants, miles of heat trace, fueling stations with all associated controls on that note waste holding tank systems with all associated controls. seven train stations, Fire suppression systems, white noise systems .Theatrical power and lighting at shows and in theaters new installations and set ups.Did two movie theaters,store fronts,climate control systems, boiler installs gas and oil burner installs. I believe in fast efficient,neat work and if I don`t get it I will get someone that does the union backs me 100% on that. I teach at the apprenticeship and continue my own education whenever possible. These are some of the reasons the boss likes calling the hall for a man I~am a realist and so is he 8 times out of 10 he will get a man with my skills the other 2 we either find something we can use the man for or let him go with a report for retraining. As for pay well we are better paid then you have described and if I have a bad day and he loses money on a recipticle well he`ll make it up and then some on the next one and he knows it. The profesionalism he gets he makes a ton from I have seen his books and his lexus lol. Hope to see you in the field someday.



my guess is that with all that experience, you have about 30+ years in the field?

local 3?

and you know as well as I do, if you are one of the big guys in NYC, you might get some preferential treatment with who they send you. Also, you get a little leeway with furloughs and work share...

that being said, I think the qualified guys need to band together and clear their own ranks of the dead weight...

realize that the contractor is not the enemy...

realize that the current situation of essentially being grouped as either 'hall trash' or a 'shop mutt' is not good for anyone...

the premise behind the union, from a contractors pov, is simple...I can take my financial capital, risk it on a project, and hire good, qualified men from the hall to perform the work to the highest standard...

then when the job is over, i can send all the men back to the hall and they move on to other jobs for other contractors...

the reality is, if they send me a good, qualified man, like yourself, i'd better hold on to him. So I end up trying to carry him through slow times, so that he's with me during busy times...

the argument heard from many union men, is a concession that not all JW's are equal...yet, we are still supposed to pay them and treat them like they are equal...

reconcile that problem, and you'll move a great distance towards fixing the reputation...


----------



## minibdr

Oldman I agree with your point of view. As I stated in my post when I am running work I try my best to weed out the men that are lacking in skills and refer them back to the hall for retraining. We also have a provision that states on a second bad termination the member must go before a committee to see what the problem is and if it can be corrected. During this process the member is taken off the available for work list until a solution is reached. No situation is perfect but we as a joint effort of contractors and union members are working side by side for the good of all parties including but not holding to the union member the contractor and the customer, who in essence is the most important part of this triangular system. As for the loud mouth comments the men I have commented on here I know and I know well .badger and brian john and they are what you hire when you hire rat. A highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee is what you get when you hire from the organization we call the IBEW


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## BDB

minibdr said:


> when you hire rat.


Well this was a civil discussion, but I have a feeling it is not going to stay that way now.:no:


----------



## BDB

minibdr said:


> A highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee is what you get when you hire from the organization we call the IBEW


Like any where, this is not always true. Just because someone has a card does not make them " highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee".


----------



## minibdr

BDB I did state that nothing is perfect just that we are trying our best to do so. We do not shun the contractor we embrace there need and encourage the situation to improve allways.


----------



## Bob Badger

minibdr said:


> .badger and brian john and they are what you hire when you hire rat.





BDB said:


> Well this was a civil discussion, but I have a feeling it is not going to stay that way now.:no:


Considering who posted that it is not even worth thinking about.:no:




> A highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee is what you get when you hire from the organization we call the IBEW


No doubt many of the IBEW members are great electricians, many are not.

Many open shop electricians are great electricians, many are not.

Believe it or not people are people no matter if they pay dues to work or not.


----------



## B4T

minibdr said:


> Hi Oldman I am an A journyman.The employer I am currently with and I have become friends Over the years I have been employed with him these are some of the things he enjoys about being associated with the IBEW. Since I have been on his payroll I have engineered and installed a cathodic protection system on a three mile long 66`` piping system. I have installed numorous cat 5 e data systems with fiber switching we did all fiber splicing and pinning. We have done airport work, towers and terminals as well as runway lighting and controlls,school work, hospital work, pollution plant water treatment work .We install manholes,confined space, high voltage splicing. Intrusion alarm, fire alarm,PA system, subway switches and traffic controls,lighting,power,escalators power and controls elevator power and controls. Antenna and communication systems for PD ,FD, transit and private companies. I operate boom trucks when installing street lighting scissor lifts when working high, articulating lifts for same. All testing AKA mega, data, impedance, high pot. The boss particularly enjoys when we are running big pipe such as six inch gal and we cut and thread before we bend to specific lengths. I run work ,perform work and instruct on installations. I am an Emergency medical technician voluntarily which is a plus on the job especially in our dangerous field. I have been on stadium jobs and 300 bay bus depot jobs. I have built houses and wired apartment buildings, hospitals and libraries. We install FRE,PVC,gal,emt,MC,BX,smurf,PVC coated gal,love the explosion proof installations. Quadlogic metering, traffic pattern, garage doors and I mean industrial **** with the traffic systems around large traffic areas air port landing towers twice, have worked on two cogen plants, miles of heat trace, fueling stations with all associated controls on that note waste holding tank systems with all associated controls. seven train stations, Fire suppression systems, white noise systems .Theatrical power and lighting at shows and in theaters new installations and set ups.Did two movie theaters,store fronts,climate control systems, boiler installs gas and oil burner installs. I believe in fast efficient,neat work and if I don`t get it I will get someone that does the union backs me 100% on that. I teach at the apprenticeship and continue my own education whenever possible. These are some of the reasons the boss likes calling the hall for a man I~am a realist and so is he 8 times out of 10 he will get a man with my skills the other 2 we either find something we can use the man for or let him go with a report for retraining. As for pay well we are better paid then you have described and if I have a bad day and he loses money on a recipticle well he`ll make it up and then some on the next one and he knows it. The profesionalism he gets he makes a ton from I have seen his books and his lexus lol. Hope to see you in the field someday.


Mini.. do you write "Disclosure Notices" for credit card companies?

Trying to read this block of text is painful


----------



## boulengerina

minibdr said:


> As for the loud mouth comments the men I have commented on here I know and I know well .badger and brian john and they are what you hire when you hire rat. A highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee is what you get when you hire from the organization we call the IBEW


Now minibdr, you know better than that. When I started this thread, I honestly did not intend to call bull$#!+ on anyone, but that's bull$#!+. Sorry. I am a member of a cutting edge progressive Local, and we still have SOME slugs. There are slugs in every Local. 

Don't get upset with these guys because you disagree. You say that you know brian john and badger well, and that may be true. If it is, then call 'em on the phone, or ride over to their place and confront them man to man... not here in the warm safe confines of cyberspace. I don't know them that well, but they make some VERY good points, and if I am not mistaken (brian john, correct me if I am wrong), brian john runs a Union shop (or at least has). I think that we, as Union members, could stand to listen to these contractors and non-Union electricians, and hear their point of view. We are not always right, and they are not always wrong, and vice-versa. This is a place for civil, mature discussion, and as a professional, you should be able to appreciate that.

Keep it KLEEN!


----------



## boulengerina

BDB said:


> Well this was a civil discussion, but I have a feeling it is not going to stay that way now.:no:


Just ignore the immature, childish, squabbling crap, and we can keep it civil.


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> badger and brian john and they are what you hire when you hire rat.


You know absolutely nothing about Bob Badger or Brian. Nothing whatsoever. I know Bob personally and I consider him a friend and a mentor in the trade. He is probably one of the smartest and most talented electricians you will ever meet. But you, on the other hand, are an ignoramus. I can say that with certainty because you are typical of the ignorant mentality that the IBEW needs to shed. 



> A highly skilled, dedicated to a profession employee is what you get when you hire from the organization we call the IBEW


Liar, liar, pants on fire!


----------



## sparky105

We need to train our brothers that the shop is not out to stick it to you
They want to make money, lots of it and you as a worker (union or non union are a tool period
When the tool stops being productive or safe or is hard to find or hard to handle get a new tool 
I have been at this a long time and I believe I am an asset to my local and my employer and I give them a days work for a days pay
I think that is all any EC wants 
the way to get the union back on the job is to make our guys do the job


----------



## user4818

Black4Truck said:


> Mini.. do you write "Disclosure Notices" for credit card companies?
> 
> Trying to read this block of text is painful



It was painful in more ways than one. :laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

minibdr said:


> Hi Oldman I am an A journyman.The employer I am currently with and I have become friends Over the years I have been employed with him these are some of the things he enjoys about being associated with the IBEW. Since I have been on his payroll I have engineered and installed a cathodic protection system on a three mile long 66`` piping system. I have installed numorous cat 5 e data systems with fiber switching we did all fiber splicing and pinning. We have done airport work, towers and terminals as well as runway lighting and controlls,school work, hospital work, pollution plant water treatment work .We install manholes,confined space, high voltage splicing. Intrusion alarm, fire alarm,PA system, subway switches and traffic controls,lighting,power,escalators power and controls elevator power and controls. Antenna and communication systems for PD ,FD, transit and private companies. I operate boom trucks when installing street lighting scissor lifts when working high, articulating lifts for same. All testing AKA mega, data, impedance, high pot. The boss particularly enjoys when we are running big pipe such as six inch gal and we cut and thread before we bend to specific lengths. I run work ,perform work and instruct on installations. I am an Emergency medical technician voluntarily which is a plus on the job especially in our dangerous field. I have been on stadium jobs and 300 bay bus depot jobs. I have built houses and wired apartment buildings, hospitals and libraries. We install FRE,PVC,gal,emt,MC,BX,smurf,PVC coated gal,love the explosion proof installations. Quadlogic metering, traffic pattern, garage doors and I mean industrial **** with the traffic systems around large traffic areas air port landing towers twice, have worked on two cogen plants, miles of heat trace, fueling stations with all associated controls on that note waste holding tank systems with all associated controls. seven train stations, Fire suppression systems, white noise systems .Theatrical power and lighting at shows and in theaters new installations and set ups.Did two movie theaters,store fronts,climate control systems, boiler installs gas and oil burner installs. I believe in fast efficient,neat work and if I don`t get it I will get someone that does the union backs me 100% on that. I teach at the apprenticeship and continue my own education whenever possible. These are some of the reasons the boss likes calling the hall for a man I~am a realist and so is he 8 times out of 10 he will get a man with my skills the other 2 we either find something we can use the man for or let him go with a report for retraining. As for pay well we are better paid then you have described and if I have a bad day and he loses money on a recipticle well he`ll make it up and then some on the next one and he knows it. The profesionalism he gets he makes a ton from I have seen his books and his lexus lol. Hope to see you in the field someday.



:001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:
Minibdr is crazy!did anyone try to read this.I knew this thread stayed civil for way to long:laughing:


----------



## manchestersparky

I worked for a larger EC for 15 years. We were NON-UNION.
The local hated us. We were bidding large projects that the IBEW felt was "theirs" and should not have been allowed to be union. I was told this many times by the local IBEW reps. Why they felt they "owned" those jobs is beyond me.

We did alot of prevailing wage/ government projects that had certified payroll. The IBEW obtained a list of all the employees and started a mail campaign to recruit us. The garbage they sent me, I found to be insulting.
Postcards that had pictures of worn out workboots, crappy tools, substandard equipment, men in stained and ripped clothes that looked they have been on a 2 week bender. The caption read "the non-union electrician" Then pictures of brand new tools, pictures of new boots, men that looked like they just graduated the apprenticeship in new clothes. The caption read " Union Electricians" 

The IBEW would be better off to stop telling men they are crap and have nasty tools and life styles if they are non union.

I have raised 2 kids, Sent both to college, own a nice size peice of land and built my house on it, have always had nice vehicles, have my masters license, Put money away for retirement,Never missed a days work due to layoffs in the 26 years I was in the field. Am I the exception ? I don't think so!
My point is the IBEW will get some guys to join by this method, but will turn as many off to the union by the stupid insults. Just because a person choses not be union does not make him/her an inferior electrician.
Kill the rat crap


----------



## sparky105

manchestersparky said:


> I worked for a larger EC for 15 years. We were NON-UNION.
> The local hated us. We were bidding large projects that the IBEW felt was "theirs" and should not have been allowed to be union. I was told this many times by the local IBEW reps. Why they felt they "owned" those jobs is beyond me.
> 
> We did alot of prevailing wage/ government projects that had certified payroll. The IBEW obtained a list of all the employees and started a mail campaign to recruit us. The garbage they sent me, I found to be insulting.
> Postcards that had pictures of worn out workboots, crappy tools, substandard equipment, men in stained and ripped clothes that looked they have been on a 2 week bender. The caption read "the non-union electrician" Then pictures of brand new tools, pictures of new boots, men that looked like they just graduated the apprenticeship in new clothes. The caption read " Union Electricians"
> 
> The IBEW would be better off to stop telling men they are crap and have nasty tools and life styles if they are non union.
> 
> I have raised 2 kids, Sent both to college, own a nice size peice of land and built my house on it, have always had nice vehicles, have my masters license, Put money away for retirement,Never missed a days work due to layoffs in the 26 years I was in the field. Am I the exception ? I don't think so!
> My point is the IBEW will get some guys to join by this method, but will turn as many off to the union by the stupid insults. Just because a person choses not be union does not make him/her an inferior electrician.
> 
> 
> 
> Kill the rat crap
Click to expand...

I agree the term rat should be stricken from the allowed vocabulary on this site weather it is in jest or not it is old and irritating


----------



## oldman

manchestersparky said:


> I worked for a larger EC for 15 years. We were NON-UNION.
> The local hated us. We were bidding large projects that the IBEW felt was "theirs" and should not have been allowed to be union. I was told this many times by the local IBEW reps. Why they felt they "owned" those jobs is beyond me.
> 
> We did alot of prevailing wage/ government projects that had certified payroll.


That is a perfect example...the funny part is that man hour for man hour, the union has an advantage in the pay rate in many cases on prevailing wage work...

the advantage comes from production...


----------



## JayH

oldman said:


> That is a perfect example...the funny part is that man hour for man hour, the union has an advantage in the pay rate in many cases on prevailing wage work...
> 
> the advantage comes from production...


Not necessarily.

Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.

This significantly reduces their burden.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.


The three states I work in require at least one J-man per apprentice and often job specs require higher ratios.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> The three states I work in require at least one J-man per apprentice and often job specs require higher ratios.


 
I stand corrected, in your area.


----------



## oldman

JayH said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.
> 
> This significantly reduces their burden.


In NJ we have a 3/2 ratio for prevailing wage...3 JW/2 Apprentices...and the apprentices have to be actively enrolled in a state approved apprenticeship program...otherwise they get full JW rate...


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> The three states I work in require at least one J-man per apprentice and often job specs require higher ratios.


Good to see there is some kind of control over "skilled labor" :thumbsup:

I can send anyone to a job.. even a burger flipper and fry cook to work a job.


----------



## boulengerina

manchestersparky said:


> The IBEW would be better off to stop telling men they are crap and have nasty tools and life styles if they are non union.
> 
> I have raised 2 kids, Sent both to college, own a nice size peice of land and built my house on it, have always had nice vehicles, have my masters license, Put money away for retirement,Never missed a days work due to layoffs in the 26 years I was in the field. Am I the exception ? I don't think so!
> My point is the IBEW will get some guys to join by this method, but will turn as many off to the union by the stupid insults. Just because a person choses not be union does not make him/her an inferior electrician.
> Kill the rat crap



I agree. If the IBEW wants to "own" a job, it should do so by merit alone. And I do not feel that you are the exception, either. I am hardcore Union, but the "rat" stuff offends me! I honestly believe that there are shops out there that honestly do not need the union. If you are paid a prevailing wage, have some healthcare, and a boss that gives a $#!+ about his employees, I think it is possible. The real benefit of being Union is collective bargaining, and traveling opportunities, and protection from unlawful termination, and that is what we should push in organizing. The old methods of "bricks & bats" had it's time and place, but we SHOULD be WAAYYY past that now, but aren't in some places. Its a shame, and doesn't have to be that way. Like I've said before, I belong to a progressive Local. We approach non-Union contractors and electricians with an open hand and mind, not a clenched fist. We listen to their needs and we address them. By acting more like a partner than a parasite, we have been able to make some pretty good headway into a SOLIDLY non-Union market, and we are still picking up steam. The State Motto for North Carolina is "Esse quam videri", or "To be, rather than to seem", and we take that very seriously. The Union, with the proper mindset, can be a terrific benefit to a contractor. Many of us have forgotten this, or never even knew it in the first place.


----------



## brian john

boulengerina said:


> I agree. If the IBEW wants to "own" a job, it should do so by merit alone. And I do not feel that you are the exception, either. I am hardcore Union, but the "rat" stuff offends me! I honestly believe that there are shops out there that honestly do not need the union. If you are paid a prevailing wage, have some healthcare, and a boss that gives a $#!+ about his employees, I think it is possible. The real benefit of being Union is collective bargaining, and traveling opportunities, and protection from unlawful termination, and that is what we should push in organizing. The old methods of "bricks & bats" had it's time and place, but we SHOULD be WAAYYY past that now, but aren't in some places. Its a shame, and doesn't have to be that way. Like I've said before, I belong to a progressive Local. We approach non-Union contractors and electricians with an open hand and mind, not a clenched fist. We listen to their needs and we address them. By acting more like a partner than a parasite, we have been able to make some pretty good headway into a SOLIDLY non-Union market, and we are still picking up steam. The State Motto for North Carolina is "Esse quam videri", or "To be, rather than to seem", and we take that very seriously. The Union, with the proper mindset, can be a terrific benefit to a contractor. Many of us have forgotten this, or never even knew it in the first place.



The thing I like about the union is.

Wages remain consistent from company to company
Health care remain consistent from apprenticeship to retirement.
RETIREMENT IS CONSISTENT.


In open shop it is possible for the BEST OF THE BEST owners to retire, die or go bankrupt, leaving their men to negotiate wages and benefits at the next job.


----------



## Thomps

JayH said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.
> 
> This significantly reduces their burden.


 
Sorry Jay, but in Canada, and in Ontario specifically, Open shops are required to follow the ratios as set out in the TQAA (Trades & Qualifications Apprenticeship Act). The journeyman to apprentice ratio in Ontario is 3:1. Manitoba, Sask., the Maritime provinces and I think Alberta are at a 1:1 ratio, and B.C. has a different scale that I am not too sure of right off the top of my head.

I don't know how the IBEW here registers or administers apprentices. From what I understand, apprentices in Ontario are registered to the the JATC and not to the contractor. so I don't know how they maintain the ratio.


oh look,,,, 100 posts.


----------



## user4818

boulengerina said:


> The State Motto for North Carolina is "Esse quam videri", or "To be, rather than to seem", and we take that very seriously. The Union, with the proper mindset, can be a terrific benefit to a contractor. Many of us have forgotten this, or never even knew it in the first place.


After reading your posts I understand why North Carolina has a prosperous economy while the northern states are floundering. NC is just a pro-business state in general, while New York, New Jersey, and New England are not. It's good to hear that the IBEW in NC is just as progressive in their approach as the state of NC is in attracting business. However, as has been pointed out, that's not the case where I live. They are clawing and fighting to keep the work they have, rather than adopting a progressive mindset that you describe.


----------



## boulengerina

brian john said:


> The thing I like about the union is.
> 
> Wages remain consistent from company to company
> Health care remain consistent from apprenticeship to retirement.
> RETIREMENT IS CONSISTENT.
> 
> 
> In open shop it is possible for the BEST OF THE BEST owners to retire, die or go bankrupt, leaving their men to negotiate wages and benefits at the next job.


And all of this is achieved through the power of collective bargaining. It is an extremely good system, if not abused. 

From what I've seen so far, it seems that the general consensus is that the Union should focus internally and stop beating up on contractors who simply out-compete them for work. There is obvious resentment on both sides as to who the work belongs to, and that's a shame. This is a free market, and the work goes to the one who wins the bid... And everyone (especially us in the IBEW) needs to get over that. If we (the IBEW) want the work, we must prove ourselves to be what we say we are, and we can't prove that by acting thuggish. I think that if we put the same energy and passion that we put into demonstrational pickets and blow-up rodents into our electrical work, we would very likely be unstoppable. Until that time comes, we may find ourselves fighting a losing battle over market share.


----------



## oldman

boulengerina said:


> And all of this is achieved through the power of collective bargaining. It is an extremely good system, if not abused.
> 
> From what I've seen so far, it seems that the general consensus is that the Union should focus internally and stop beating up on contractors who simply out-compete them for work. There is obvious resentment on both sides as to who the work belongs to, and that's a shame. This is a free market, and the work goes to the one who wins the bid... And everyone (especially us in the IBEW) needs to get over that. If we (the IBEW) want the work, we must prove ourselves to be what we say we are, and we can't prove that by acting thuggish. I think that if we put the same energy and passion that we put into demonstrational pickets and blow-up rodents into our electrical work, we would very likely be unstoppable. Until that time comes, we may find ourselves fighting a losing battle over market share.


Bingo....

(btw - for millerelex, i am currently waiting for a set of prints to download....)


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## boulengerina

*So you think its EASY in NC???? Come and see for yourself!*



Peter D said:


> After reading your posts I understand why North Carolina has a prosperous economy while the northern states are floundering. NC is just a pro-business state in general, while New York, New Jersey, and New England are not. It's good to hear that the IBEW in NC is just as progressive in their approach as the state of NC is in attracting business. However, as has been pointed out, that's not the case where I live. They are clawing and fighting to keep the work they have, rather than adopting a progressive mindset that you describe.


Well it's up to us, as rank and file members, to change our Locals into whatever they need to be. We need to win our work on sheer merit, and not count on big jobs and political favors to get us through. 

We are onto something here in the North State. This is likely the MOST non-Union area in the country. Nothing is easy here. As little as five years ago, we had no friends in the community, and ALL the politicians were either scared of us, or hated us. We have to struggle constantly to maintain what we have, much less grow. We are making our gains through sweat and hard work, caring for and protecting OUR contractors, and policing ourselves for anyone who would disrupt the program. And it is working.

I encourage and challenge all members of the IBEW to quit talking about how good they are, and show it. Get serious about what we do. We do electrical work, and that's it. We stand together and collectively bargain IN GOOD FAITH with our contractors and make reasonable gains with regards to wages and benefits (although the Local retirement sux a little... could be much better). Service your customers! Your customers are your EC's, your GC's, and your end users/payers. Give them the service they deserve, and they will keep coming back. Continue to freak-out with entitlement issues, and your market share will continue to drop.

Stupidity is defined by doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting a different outcome.:blink:


----------



## oldman

for a communist, you're alright:laughing:

(yes, millerelex, prints are still downloading...it's a big job...)


----------



## boulengerina

oldman said:


> for a communist, you're alright:laughing:
> 
> (yes, millerelex, prints are still downloading...it's a big job...)


I'm just an ethical commie:thumbup::laughing::thumbup:!!!!!


----------



## oldman

boulengerina said:


> I'm just an ethical commie:laughing::thumbup:!!!!!


good to know my illicit profits are safe around you....:laughing:

you only want my ethical profits:laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

oldman said:


> good to know my illicit profits are safe around you....:laughing:
> 
> you only want my ethical profits:laughing:


Honestly and seriously, we understand that our EC's must make a profit in order to work our members... Sounds simple, but apparently, many Locals just don't get it. Gaining market share is easier when that is your main focus... not counting down the minutes until the next demonstration. PLAYING Union is very different from BEING Union. And we get it!


----------



## user4818

boulengerina said:


> This is likely the MOST non-Union area in the country.


What about South Carolina? Texas? Alabama? Georgia? Tennessee? Mississippi? Arkansas? Louisiana? Or where you just referring to the southern states in general?


----------



## Grimlock

Peter D said:


> What about South Carolina? *Texas?* Alabama? Georgia? Tennessee? Mississippi? Arkansas? Louisiana? Or where you just referring to the southern states in general?


The union is weak in Texas.


----------



## boulengerina

Peter D said:


> What about South Carolina? Texas? Alabama? Georgia? Tennessee? Mississippi? Arkansas? Louisiana? Or where you just referring to the southern states in general?


No, just NC and SC. These two states have the LOWEST Union density of all 50 states. And the lowest pay:whistling2:. 

Tennessee and Louisiana are relatively strong... probably the strongest two in the south.


----------



## manchestersparky

It's kind of interesting - I spent 25 years in the field non-union.
Took a position with a local jurisdiction as an inspector and joined a union.
the difference is it's not the IBEW it's one that deals with government employees


----------



## boulengerina

manchestersparky said:


> It's kind of interesting - I spent 25 years in the field non-union.
> Took a position with a local jurisdiction as an inspector and joined a union.
> the difference is it's not the IBEW it's one that deals with government employees


Is that AGFA?


----------



## Lone Crapshooter

To Start with the way the IBEW selects apprentices is wrong.
The way it should be done is that the union should tell the companies when they can bring in apprentices. The companies would hire the individuals they want and sponser the them through the apprenticeship. 
Do away with all this apitude testing and interviews . 
Do away with the advanced math requirement (remember that we are training blue collar workers not engineers) 
If there are more applicants than slots limit each contractor to no more than say 3 apprentices . If every one makes through the program you might have a few extra men from time to time but it would not be a excessive amount.
Tell the organizers to organize individuals not just companies.
Also tell the organizers to tell the truth. One of the lieing organizers I delt with told me that I was over qualified and this "country club local " in my area did not do any industrial work also they told me that they could not even give me a test because I am represented by a AFofL/CIO union. I came to find out later that , that was a lie also.
LC
Listen Think Solve


----------



## 480sparky

Lone Crapshooter said:


> ........The way it should be done is that the union should tell the companies when they can bring in apprentices. .........


Great. Now the unions will be telling ECs how to run their companies.


----------



## boulengerina

JayH said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.
> 
> This significantly reduces their burden.


This is correct in my area also, and has been a significant player in our prior losses in market share. We tried to set some Quixotic standard by holding our ratios at 3 to 1, while the open shops here ran ratios more like 1 to 9! Almost KILLED us!! But the "old-timers" liked it that way for some reason, and it took the International coming down here and forcing a jagged little pill called "progress" down our collective throats. We now allow our contractors to work a 1 to 6 ratio. I didn't like it at first, but man-hours are up, almost ALL (over 90%) of our JW's are working, our EC's are making money like never before, and the Local is growing, as is our general fund. We use the CE/CW program here (any of you non-Union or Union contractors and electricians that would like an explanation of this... just message me), and it feels weird saying this, but it has done a lot to SAVE our Local. I know a lot of you Union guys will want to crucify me for saying that, but it's true, and I try VERY hard not to lie (Baby, do I look nice this evening?:whistling2. It really has done wonders here. All of the guys that I would consider a "real" JW have kept their jobs, and we have had to organize more. We are currently working more JW's than ever before (at least in anyone's memory). When the lay-offs come around, everything remains proportional. 

There have been some casualties, though. In the past, this Local, like many others, would give anyone with a bunch of exp or a license a JW ticket. But simply having a license or a bunch of exp does NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES MAKE YOU A JW. We have lost many of the ones we probably needed to lose, and now these guys are the non-Union contractor's problem (please, no offense... y'all pay 'em MUCH less anyway in this area!). And we may lose more. But for every sub-standard JW we shed, we take on one or two more from the open shops. I have said this before, and I will say it again... The really good non-Union electricians are just as good as the really good Union JW's, and sometimes, better, as they had to want the education more. It wasn't easy for them. Most had to pay dearly for their education. AND, they very seldom bitch about things like the cold, the weather, the heat, or the pressure. They are used to it. Where they come from, if they bitch, they can be fired. Not that folks shouldn't complain if the conditions are horrible, but dang it, this is construction, and very seldom is it "comfortable" on a job. 

NO WHINERS!!!!!


----------



## JacksonburgFarmer

JayH said:


> What the hell does this post mean?
> 
> _In my 5 years of school I had one year we regularly were in a shop to work/learn._
> 
> You have two guys working for you from outside the hall and your non-signatory. Wow big surprise there. What would be surprising is if you had hands from the hall working for you.
> 
> It's etc. not ect.
> 
> It's lose, not loose.


 
Ok Jack....It means that IN MY FIVE YEARS OF UNION APPRENTICESHIP TRAINNING, there was ONE, 1 (1) year where we were regularly in an enviroment to learn something HANDS ON. DONT TELL ME that you CAN learn Conduit Bending by ONLY looking at a BOOK. CANT BE DONE!!:no:

It would be ok if you get off the spelling police trip too, really, who cares??:laughing:

I have (at this point and time) pretty well decided that we will be open shop. I can likely give my employees better terms to work under MY way than the halls way. I have seen both sides of the fence, and know that as a buisnessman, the last thing I need is someone telling me what I have to pay someone. NOT ALL JW's are created equally and you and I both know it....

If the IBEW wants to grow......
1. adopt a refferal system like the carpenters. IF they are so good, and everyone is the same, everyone would be able to compete with each other:whistling2:
2. The JATC instructors should be more of instructors, rather than class as follows. Do you lessons at home, the go to class, and go around the room reading questions and answers. then go home. HOW ABOUT YOU TEACH THEM???? In 5 years, I had one instructor WHO TAUGHT US, instead of just reading the questions that you figured out on your own.

Right now, I find my own apprentices, keep the good ones (hard to find) and TRAIN THEM!!! I pay well for those whom are motivated.

GOOD GREIF


----------



## JayH

JacksonburgFarmer said:


> Ok Jack....It means that IN MY FIVE YEARS OF UNION APPRENTICESHIP TRAINNING, there was ONE, 1 (1) year where we were regularly in an enviroment to learn something HANDS ON. DONT TELL ME that you CAN learn Conduit Bending by ONLY looking at a BOOK. CANT BE DONE!!:no:
> 
> It would be ok if you get off the spelling police trip too, really, who cares??:laughing:
> 
> I have (at this point and time) pretty well decided that we will be open shop. I can likely give my employees better terms to work under MY way than the halls way. I have seen both sides of the fence, and know that as a buisnessman, the last thing I need is someone telling me what I have to pay someone. NOT ALL JW's are created equally and you and I both know it....
> 
> If the IBEW wants to grow......
> 1. adopt a refferal system like the carpenters. IF they are so good, and everyone is the same, everyone would be able to compete with each other:whistling2:
> 2. The JATC instructors should be more of instructors, rather than class as follows. Do you lessons at home, the go to class, and go around the room reading questions and answers. then go home. HOW ABOUT YOU TEACH THEM???? In 5 years, I had one instructor WHO TAUGHT US, instead of just reading the questions that you figured out on your own.
> 
> Right now, I find my own apprentices, keep the good ones (hard to find) and TRAIN THEM!!! I pay well for those whom are motivated.
> 
> GOOD GREIF


Allright, I still don't get it. Weren't you in an on the job learning environment all five years? This is the reason we rotate our apprentices every six months. Or are you saying that they would rotate you to aquire skill sets you had not received yet?

OK, I won't bother you with spelling anymore, but it looks very unprofessional when people mispell etcetera abbreviated. :thumbsup:

How much training will your apprentices receive working for you as an open shop? Will you be sitting down with them 2 nights a week for classroom instruction? Will you join ABC?

Will you be bidding any public works where your apprentices are required to be indentured?

It is kind of disheartening when a person takes full advantage of the subsidized union apprenticeship education and then decides to go out and start an open shop. 

Our local would work with you to maintain costs that kept you competitive. Have you approached your local about any possible new business assistance?


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## manchestersparky

boulengerina said:


> Is that AGFA?


NO-
PM sent


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## manchestersparky

JayH said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.
> 
> This significantly reduces their burden.


Thats not true at all in the Baltimore / Washington area, at least in respect to my post. On prevailing wage / Davis-Bacon projects the requirements are spelled out and are the same as the local union.
This is watched closely by the State Wage and Labor Board. They have a person who vists the site on a regular basis and checks. This is also why there is certified payroll. It lists the names, the positions of the person ( Journey men, apprentice Master etc) the wages, and the hours worked on the project.


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## JacksonburgFarmer

JayH....

I had five years of school and OTJ. However, in 1st year when we reviewed knot tying, the instructor says, well, you can learn that at work. We looked at pictures.

When conduit bending came along, they showed us how to figure (importand I agree) but NEVER did a bender or stick of pipe show up, again learn at work


MY Fourth year, my instructor showed us with alot of hands on about motor control, controls, ladder diagrams etc. 

I learned MORE in my 4th year than the other four together. 

My current apprentice (started in may, never changed a lightbulb before then) has more knowlege and abilitythan most of the guys who were in my third year class.

I train them to be a Electrician. I can cut out the stuff, and teach. (workplace harrasment, comet, etc.)

Just my view on things....


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## Shado

JayH said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Open shops are not required to adhere to an apprentice to JW ratio.
> 
> This significantly reduces their burden.


Colorado....union or not.....1 to 3 ratio


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy

This is the perfect topic for me to post on. To tell you my experinces ( pardon my spelling as I am going to type this fast as there will be alot. I have been in the electrical field since I was 18 ( now 35 ) most of my career I have been a PROUD RAT =) we worked our arses off building anything we could bid on. on occasion we would have to hire additional help ( sometimes they were salters ) Salters are bad ( you know calvin pissing on everything well I made a rat pissing on a salt shaker ) there was an occasion where we were wiring a fast food resturarnt the 2 new guys were pulling in hvac circuits and knife skinning the wire at the same time BAD BAD. another was cross phaseing the mdp. A seperate company I worked for another pos salter bad mouthed several members of the shop to customers and was always confrintational ( he also milked the job ) I trimmed 2 bed rooms he didn't even have the receps done in his first bed room. I moved to the oppisite side of the state to buy a house Houseing cost are much lower on my current side. there happened to be 4 major union jobs going where the union had an open walk thru and called every tramp in the country. Here these hm hm hmphs come to my town and graphiti all there union b/s in every bar gas station bathroom in a 50 mile radius. when I was in the bar having a cold one they would say I was taking work from them by working non union ( wait a second I live here plucker ) to get to my point all electricians are brothers and we should all treat each other as such. oh yah by the way I signed on a year ago while working rat. since then I have gotten laid off and am patiently waiting to go to work. Also I think unions could become stronger if we lowered the wages 20 percent which would make it easier for union shops to compete in all work out there. lobby for mandated prevailing wage for all contractors. Oh yah I have been on one short call, I was not impressed with the work ethics of make the job last I'm a git er dun type of guy. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## miller_elex

Why sign-up now? WTF? If you're so good at what you do, then the IBEW is just holding you back. I thought the union was where all the mediocre tradesmen circled the wagons for protection... You sound so much more than mediocre.

You should be able to negotiate a package worth at least a third more than the prevailing wage just because you're one of the elites. (Then throw in that bonus at the end of the job.) Big buck$$$, just go to the nearest Merit contractor, he will make sure you're paid what you're worth. 

What the hell made you decide to join forces with a bunch of inferior electricians? Merit is where it is at. RS Means can't be correct on the wage-hour matrix, showing the average Merit electrician package is almost 40% less, I'm left scratching my head.


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## slickvic277

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> This is the perfect topic for me to post on. To tell you my experinces ( pardon my spelling as I am going to type this fast as there will be alot. I have been in the electrical field since I was 18 ( now 35 ) most of my career I have been a PROUD RAT =) we worked our arses off building anything we could bid on. on occasion we would have to hire additional help ( sometimes they were salters ) Salters are bad ( you know calvin pissing on everything well I made a rat pissing on a salt shaker ) there was an occasion where we were wiring a fast food resturarnt the 2 new guys were pulling in hvac circuits and knife skinning the wire at the same time BAD BAD. another was cross phaseing the mdp. A seperate company I worked for another pos salter bad mouthed several members of the shop to customers and was always confrintational ( he also milked the job ) I trimmed 2 bed rooms he didn't even have the receps done in his first bed room. I moved to the oppisite side of the state to buy a house Houseing cost are much lower on my current side. there happened to be 4 major union jobs going where the union had an open walk thru and called every tramp in the country. Here these hm hm hmphs come to my town and graphiti all there union b/s in every bar gas station bathroom in a 50 mile radius. when I was in the bar having a cold one they would say I was taking work from them by working non union ( wait a second I live here plucker ) to get to my point all electricians are brothers and we should all treat each other as such. oh yah by the way I signed on a year ago while working rat. since then I have gotten laid off and am patiently waiting to go to work. Also I think unions could become stronger if we lowered the wages 20 percent which would make it easier for union shops to compete in all work out there. lobby for mandated prevailing wage for all contractors. Oh yah I have been on one short call, I was not impressed with the work ethics of make the job last I'm a git er dun type of guy. Just my 2 cents.




So your whole career you work non-union and claim to have nothing but bad experiences with the IBEW.Then all of a sudden you decide to flip and sign on,during one of the worst recessions in the past 30 years,you get laid off and now think we should all work for 20% less.Because your not impressed.Maybe the EC wasn't that impressed with you.

I'm sorry my friend but your whole post smells like B.S.


----------



## paul d.

slickvic277 said:


> So your whole career you work non-union and claim to have nothing but bad experiences with the IBEW.Then all of a sudden you decide to flip and sign on,during one of the worst recessions in the past 30 years,you get laid off and now think we should all work for 20% less.Because your not impressed.Maybe the EC wasn't that impressed with you.
> 
> I'm sorry my friend but your whole post smells like B.S.


what slick said.


----------



## GoodLookingUglyGuy

Actually my rof ticket said good worker. I don't know. the reason i joined was the money thats all sine this side of the state wages in the non union sector are considerably less. 10 bucks an hr less. so thats what got me to step over to get organized. and dropping 20 % down to in this area would still be at 26.48 plus the rest of the package which is a worthy sum to work for imho My layoff came from non union side of the trade


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy

I see that some feelings got hurt I posted under good intentions to the op I assume that maybe you can't handle brutal constructive observations. I was not attacking the union I was just stating what poor actions some of the members have shown which produce a poor image. 

Quote from op 
PS... Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself.


----------



## miller_elex

GLUGuy,

You got a point, you signed up for the money.

That's the point, end of story.

Alot of sparks won't sign up for ideological reasons, even when it means they will make more.

WTF, the IBEW and contractors IS NOT the UAW and automakers!
Totally different situation, rules, and mindset. C'mon and chime in Riveter, I'm trolling for you.


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> So your whole career you work non-union and claim to have nothing but bad experiences with the IBEW.Then all of a sudden you decide to flip and sign on,during one of the worst recessions in the past 30 years,you get laid off and now think we should all work for 20% less.Because your not impressed.Maybe the EC wasn't that impressed with you.
> 
> I'm sorry my friend but your whole post smells like B.S.


Why work for less? Will more jobs start if we lower our wages? Will more investors and developers decide to jump on a 20% lower electrican's wage package?

GLUG has a Wal-Mart mentality. "Cheaper is better." Says he's 35... talks more like hes 19.


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## Bob Badger

LGLS you are so far brain washed nothing you say holds any meaning at all.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why work for less? Will more jobs start if we lower our wages? Will more investors and developers decide to jump on a 20% lower electrican's wage package?
> 
> GLUG has a Wal-Mart mentality. "Cheaper is better." Says he's 35... talks more like hes 19.


Actually lower wages might generate more work, when those that spend the dollars are sitting on them due to PISS POOR government policies and fear of the future. Lower taxer generate work (ARE YOU LISTENING MR. "O") and lower wages under strict guidelines for a set period of time or certain projects might do the same.


----------



## BDB

brian john said:


> and lower wages under strict guidelines for a set period of time or *certain projects* might do the same.


In my experience this part will NOT work. We did this a few years back and you could forget about any member working on this lower scale job when he can go get the higher scale on another job. So, yes lowering the wage on certain jobs may very well get the contractor the job, but God help him when it is time to hire the men for the job.


----------



## boulengerina

What GLUG is saying here rings true guys! If it doesn't, you obviously don't know many tramps or "old school" salts! And any local that sits by and allows or encourages it's salts to behave the way GLUG describes is contributing to the demise of our brotherhood! 

We in the IBEW need to remember, we are doing a job to satisfy the END USER. We already cost more, so we ABSOLUTELY CANNOT AFFORD TO WORK SLOWER!!!! To slow-walk a job is the same as stealing. The only way we will ever beat this reputation is to SIMPLY IMPROVE!!!

GLUG may be exaggerating a bit, but if ANYTHING he says is true, then WE are the onles with the problem.

Welcome to the IBEW, GLUG. Stick with the get 'er done mentality. This recession has killed EVERYONE's work, but it will come back. And you are in the right place when it does!


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## boulengerina

*And screw a paycut.... work for it.*

I disagree with a 20% pay decrease. We should simply earn it. And by doing so, we help out the non-Union Brothers as well, as they will all get a raise too. Even if they hate our guts, we will get them a raise!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## 10492

BDB said:


> In my experience this part will NOT work. We did this a few years back and you could forget about any member working on this lower scale job when he can go get the higher scale on another job. So, yes lowering the wage on certain jobs may very well get the contractor the job, but God help him when it is time to hire the men for the job.


I always thought that hiring the men to do the job wasn't the problem, it was outsiders blocking them from doing their job, and damaging their equipment out of spite.


----------



## BDB

Dnkldorf said:


> I always thought that hiring the men to do the job wasn't the problem, it was outsiders blocking them from doing their job, and damaging their equipment out of spite.


I am talking from a Union shop side of things.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Actually lower wages might generate more work, when those that spend the dollars are sitting on them due to PISS POOR government policies and fear of the future. Lower taxer generate work (ARE YOU LISTENING MR. "O") and lower wages under strict guidelines for a set period of time or certain projects might do the same.


Sure - and we'd all be working 7-12's if we'd only work for free. The reality is, real wages in both the union and nonunion sectors of every industry have not kept pace with the rising cost of living, so everybody is already working for less and yet the picture is still bleak.

Think globally... of course a shop with a lower than average wage scale will get more work, but in the grand scheme of things, if wages don't result in everyone involved meeting their financial obligations and allow for discretionary spending the economy falls apart and we all end up broke.

THe solution is the middle class needs more, not less spending money. And yes, the speculators and investors and money movers need to accept less return on investment for basically doing nothing. Making the wealthy wealthier is not the solution, it's the problem. Trickle-down doesn't work.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> What GLUG is saying here rings true guys! If it doesn't, you obviously don't know many tramps or "old school" salts! And any local that sits by and allows or encourages it's salts to behave the way GLUG describes is contributing to the demise of our brotherhood!
> 
> We in the IBEW need to remember, we are doing a job to satisfy the END USER. We already cost more, so we ABSOLUTELY CANNOT AFFORD TO WORK SLOWER!!!! To slow-walk a job is the same as stealing. The only way we will ever beat this reputation is to SIMPLY IMPROVE!!!
> 
> GLUG may be exaggerating a bit, but if ANYTHING he says is true, then WE are the onles with the problem.
> 
> Welcome to the IBEW, GLUG. Stick with the get 'er done mentality. This recession has killed EVERYONE's work, but it will come back. And you are in the right place when it does!


The International has been trying to get all of the locals to root out the old-school negative mentality some members still cling to with varying degrees of success. Here, I've watched members who refused to budge stand by their convictions while they lost their houses or ended up selling and moving. 

In the apprentice department the success rate for the last 12 classes has been less than 50% as the local is keeping a sharp eye on members who show the warning signs - lateness, absenteeism, positive drug tests, and no apprentice is immune no matter who they know or are related to. Same bodes true for journeymen, as weekly foreman's reports to the local are required from all foremen to retain their ticket, and are instructed to fire chronically late or absent members and not ROW them.


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## vanvincent218

wow im sure everyone has something to say on this topic..
Ive been a memeber since 1989. ive seen alot of changes in the local i work in. One of the biggest is recruiting new members, when jobs are getting more and more scarce! Unenployment in our local is the highest ive ever seen!over 2000 on the books! but still the school is accepting more applicants! there are more than 100 apprentaces waiting for a job right now! unheard of in my day!!Sounds like GREED to collect new dues to me!
Also its doesnt take alot to figure that a union company cannot compete with the priceing of a non-union shop! they dont have the insurance costs, retirement bennies and all that.BUT the union shops are supposed to be better ,faster and safer to make up that gap.Too many union brothers are letting thier unions down by not performing the way they should and could!
wanna get back to the topic,,sorry
If the IBEW wants to regain its former glory we have to come up with ways to compete with the non-union companies. to prove that a union installed job is truely the best way to go..EVER TIME!!


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## BDB

vanvincent218 said:


> If the IBEW wants to regain its former glory we have to come up with ways to compete with the non-union companies. to prove that a union installed job is truely the best way to go..EVER TIME!!


If only the members would take this to heart. All I see now days are slower workers and unacceptable work alot of the times.


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## RIVETER

*Damaged Rep.*

A lot of what you say is true, however the union ,like any major company wants to keep the pipeline full. It has to be that way in order to accommodate retirings...deaths...changes of profession. Mistakes have been made along the way but you have to remember the union is not down at the HALL; WE are it, and if we, or those who proceeded us have tarnished the concept of UNIONISM, people like you , me, and most of the others I have met, need to change it. I have been IBEW for 37 years and am proud of that, but I won't fool myself. I have a huge respect for our NON-UNION counterparts. They have a reason to help make this industry a good one in which to work. We ALL have a dog in the fight.


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## stars13bars2

...............


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## miller_elex

stars13bars2 said:


> because change is comming.


Spoken like a true intellectual. Spell like one too.


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## miller_elex

boulengerina said:


> To slow-walk a job is the same as stealing.


Who is going to hold the foreman accountable for that? The PM? Bad management is to blame for many bad foremen, and bad foremen are to blame for the losers hiding out on the job.

A douche can get away with being productive only 3-1/2 hours out of the day on a PW job, if the PM is a POS who doesn't communicate with his foreman who also is a POS.


----------



## JayH




----------



## GoodLookingUglyGuy

Thanks for the warm welcome boulengerina, I hope that it was a wise long term investment. The only problem I am having is not being able to pound the pavement looking for work. I hate sitting waiting in the bread line.


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## JayH

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome boulengerina, I hope that it was a wise long term investment. The only problem I am having is not being able to pound the pavement looking for work. I hate sitting waiting in the bread line.


 
Talk to your BA about possible salting opportunities. If none are available in our local our E-Board understands people have to work and must do what they can to feed their family.

Our local has Foreman Call by Name so if we have the Foreman certification we can solicit a shop as a foreman to run work.


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## GoodLookingUglyGuy

if I wanted to salt I would. if there was any sort of incentive I might consider it but theres not any incentive . I can even gain spots in the book so whats the point. if a contractor id keeping his guys happy enough they have no reason to get organized. I ended up being on a job where it was mixed union/non union. the carpenters where organized and very respectful to all the other trades. they did talk about the bennies of getting organized which got my mind turning, then I ran into all the tramps  but 4 nice brothers and 1 sister that I met at the local watering hole convinced me enough that there were people working in the union that I could respect and that the  were just a small portion thanks J for local 73


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## miller_elex

Hold on here.... You are waiting on the books in 73?
That's suicide.

Something stinks. Is this rewire?


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## JayH

miller_elex said:


> Hold on here.... You are waiting on the books in 73?
> That's suicide.
> 
> Something stinks. Is this rewire?


yeah, someone is just trying to stir the pot.


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## RUSSIAN

BDB said:


> In my experience this part will NOT work. We did this a few years back and you could forget about any member working on this lower scale job when he can go get the higher scale on another job. So, yes lowering the wage on certain jobs may very well get the contractor the job, but God help him when it is time to hire the men for the job.


Almost every local in the country will be doing this soon, it's called CE/CW and its being rammed down our throats
Ed Hill seems to believe that in this sh!tty economy we need more members:no:
The CW rate that is being discussed in my local is about 60% of IW rate. How the Fu(K is this not going to destroy our wage package


----------



## boulengerina

RIVETER said:


> A lot of what you say is true, however the union ,like any major company wants to keep the pipeline full. It has to be that way in order to accommodate retirings...deaths...changes of profession. Mistakes have been made along the way but you have to remember the union is not down at the HALL; WE are it, and if we, or those who proceeded us have tarnished the concept of UNIONISM, people like you , me, and most of the others I have met, need to change it. I have been IBEW for 37 years and am proud of that, but I won't fool myself. I have a huge respect for our NON-UNION counterparts. They have a reason to help make this industry a good one in which to work. We ALL have a dog in the fight.


Well said, RIVETER. I could not agree more myself.:thumbsup:


----------



## boulengerina

miller_elex said:


> Who is going to hold the foreman accountable for that? The PM? Bad management is to blame for many bad foremen, and bad foremen are to blame for the losers hiding out on the job.
> 
> A douche can get away with being productive only 3-1/2 hours out of the day on a PW job, if the PM is a POS who doesn't communicate with his foreman who also is a POS.


But slow-walkin' is slow-walkin'. And it has nothing to do with anyone but the man doing it, and the foreman allowing it. A foreman, in our local, has the right to kick a guy off his crew, and if that happens to be the whole job, then so be it. This is not something that we should try to throw back at management. They are not babysitters, and we are grown men and women. We know right from wrong, and each makes to personal decision as to which path to follow. 

This is our problem.


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## boulengerina

GoodLookingUglyGuy said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome boulengerina, I hope that it was a wise long term investment. The only problem I am having is not being able to pound the pavement looking for work. I hate sitting waiting in the bread line.


You and everybody else, right now. The work outlook sux everywhere for everyone in the short term. But get your clearances in order, as the nuclear and power generation work is coming! Be ready when it gets here. Everyone will need instrument techs.


----------



## boulengerina

RUSSIAN said:


> Almost every local in the country will be doing this soon, it's called CE/CW and its being rammed down our throats
> Ed Hill seems to believe that in this sh!tty economy we need more members:no:
> The CW rate that is being discussed in my local is about 60% of IW rate. How the Fu(K is this not going to destroy our wage package


If it works in Cali like it works here in NC, it's not such a bad thing. We had it "shoved down our throats" a few years ago, and now we are working more Journeymen than ever before in the history of this local. And there certainly haven't been any paycuts! 

No one, including myself, liked this when it was introduced, but give it a chance. I have heard mixed reviews from around the country... some say good, some say bad... but mostly good. If your local has strong leadership, and doesn't allow the contractors to abuse the program, you have nothing to worry about. 

And you will eventually hear (if you haven't already) that the unindentured classifications will take the JW's jobs. NOT TRUE. However, anyone who has the JW Classification, and doesn't have the JW Skills to back it up, will likely end up replaced.


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## nitro71

boulengerina said:


> I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!


 
Some parts of the country(here) the IBEW doesn't have a bad reputation. Has a very good one in fact. Doesn't mean that it fits every contractors or electricians needs though.


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## boulengerina

nitro71 said:


> Some parts of the country(here) the IBEW doesn't have a bad reputation. Has a very good one in fact. Doesn't mean that it fits every contractors or electricians needs though.


I'm sure that's why Boeing Aircraft decided to build it's new manufacturing facility in SC... because we are doing so well in Washington state!

They said they were coming here SPECIFICALLY because of the lower Union density.


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## brian john

boulengerina said:


> I'm sure that's why Boeing Aircraft decided to build it's new manufacturing facility in SC... because we are doing so well in Washington state!
> 
> They said they were coming here SPECIFICALLY because of the lower Union density.


In Boeing's case whether you agree with the union issues or not (of which I know little in theiir case) the perception by most Americans is F**k the unions look how they screwed the company or something along those lines. The public in general frowns on strikes.


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## Bob Badger

nitro71 said:


> Some parts of the country(here) the IBEW doesn't have a bad reputation. Has a very good one in fact. Doesn't mean that it fits every contractors or electricians needs though.



I have never been 'there' so I do not really know.

But I do wonder how you came to that conclusion, are you going by how you and your fellow union members feel or are you going by the general public impression of the unions?

My opinion is that most of the general public feel the union is greedy self adsorbed organization and that the members are overcompensated for the work they accomplish.


----------



## boulengerina

brian john said:


> In Boeing's case whether you agree with the union issues or not (of which I know little in theiir case) the perception by most Americans is F**k the unions look how they screwed the company or something along those lines. The public in general frowns on strikes.


And the IBEW Construction branch DOES NOT STRIKE! I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. 

If we were to strike, it would have to be mandated by the International President, and it would take something severe. So severe that I cannot conceive a scenario. 

Strikes are stupid anyway. The owner is usually a millionaire, and we are trying to hurt him by not making him more money, and meanwhile, we starve. Sounds completely counterproductive to me. :thumbup:


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> I have never been 'there' so I do not really know.



Me either, Bob. Been ALL OVER this great Nation, and never seen what this brother is describing. The IBEW is held in high regard just about everywhere... just by fewer and fewer people every day. Therein lies our problem.:whistling2:


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## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> The IBEW is held in high regard just about everywhere...


By who?

Other members of the IBEW?

I don't think the general public knows the difference between the IBEW, IBT, BAC, or the TWUA.:no:


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> By who?
> 
> Other members of the IBEW?
> 
> I don't think the general public knows the difference between the IBEW, IBT, BAC, or the TWUA.:no:


That is my point. John Q Public is too busy fiddling with his dang i-pod to come up for air and get informed.

And the IBEW is still held in high regard by many contractors, electricians, and various other firms and institutions. Our apprenticeship is still top-ranked in the western hemisphere. But with dwindling support, how long will this last? 

Regardless of how you may feel personally, all of this is true. Whether or not you may hold the IBEW in high regard is wayyyyy down on the scale (I personally could care less), but industry leaders do. We still hold more seats on the NFPA Code Board than any other single institution, other than the chamber of commerce, through their various manufacturing members. Check your Code Book if you doubt me. 

But we are currently losing the battle in most areas. What is surprising is in the South, where the IBEW has traditionally been very weak, the IBEW is growing. And it seems to be through good faith bargaining and flexibility with signatory contractors. 

Most contractors are happy with hard-working and well-trained men. Most, I say, because there are always those with some weird personal vendetta against the IBEW, but if the IBEW can supply those men to a contractor, most contractors are happy with the situation. Washing away years of unwarranted ULP's and removing the stigma that the IBEW will take over your company is the really hard part. But if it can be done in the South, it can be done ANYWHERE. All that is required of us (Union members) is that we carry our own weight, and give them 8 for 8. 

NO WHINERS!!!!


----------



## Advanced37

boulengerina said:


> I'm sure that's why Boeing Aircraft decided to build it's new manufacturing facility in SC... because we are doing so well in Washington state!
> 
> They said they were coming here SPECIFICALLY because of the lower Union density.



There moving to SC because they can pay the people a lower wage and the people of SC accept it and are thankful to have a job. Normal course of thinking for a southerner is all unions are bad, (remember the union won... LOL!!! ) 


So just the facts... 

Per captia income as of 2005 was ranked 43 out of 50, Washington State was 15th. Disposable income for the state was 42 out of 50. 16% of the people of SC live below the poverty line, 9th highest out of 50. Median household income was 37th.


----------



## boulengerina

jammerx37 said:


> There moving to SC because they can pay the people a lower wage and the people of SC accept it and are thankful to have a job. Normal course of thinking for a southerner is all unions are bad, (remember the union won... LOL!!! )
> 
> 
> So just the facts...
> 
> Per captia income as of 2005 was ranked 43 out of 50, Washington State was 15th. Disposable income for the state was 42 out of 50. 16% of the people of SC live below the poverty line, 9th highest out of 50. Median household income was 37th.


So what are you saying? That southerners are dumb? Or that they are suffering as a result of low Union density? And just to be sure... Do you realize that wages suck out loud here as a result of the low Union density?

Boeing made it very clear why they came here... They don't hide the fact that they would love to pay third-world wages. The funny thing is that we are probably doing the job anyway. We just have to be sure that we do it right.

And here's another fact for your book... SC Has the lowest Union density in the USA at 2%, according to the US Dept of Labor.


----------



## brian john

jammerx37 said:


> There moving to SC because they can pay the people a lower wage and the people of SC accept it and are thankful to have a job. Normal course of thinking for a southerner is all unions are bad, (remember the union won... LOL!!! )
> 
> 
> So just the facts...
> 
> Per captia income as of 2005 was ranked 43 out of 50, Washington State was 15th. Disposable income for the state was 42 out of 50. 16% of the people of SC live below the poverty line, 9th highest out of 50. Median household income was 37th.


 
Higher wages does not necessarily mean you are keeping that money. 

Look at some of the north eastern states highest pain taxes and what do they get for those taxes?


----------



## miller_elex

N.C.E.W.

National
Confederation
of Electrical 
Workers

Would you bozos rather join that?


----------



## BuzzKill

miller_elex said:


> Hold on here.... You are waiting on the books in 73?
> That's suicide.
> 
> Something stinks. Is this rewire?


 dippsy-doodle-douche-bag?


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> N.C.E.W.
> 
> National
> Confederation
> of Electrical
> Workers
> 
> Would you bozos rather join that?


As in anything some would join, some in the IBEW and others would work open shop.

There are many reasons as stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that some open shop men prefer it that way. What is weird IMO is that some folks cannot grasp the concept of free thinking and self determination.


----------



## JayH

brian john said:


> What is weird IMO is that some folks cannot grasp the concept of free thinking and self determination.


As if those concepts are non-existent in Union shops.


----------



## BuzzKill

JayH said:


> As if those concepts are non-existent in Union shops.


 those are the anti-thesis of union-think.


----------



## JayH

BuzzKill said:


> those are the anti-thesis of union-think.


 
And you know this because you've worked on how many union projects for how long?


----------



## brian john

JayH said:


> As if those concepts are non-existent in Union shops.


Jay ONLY based upon the post of some union members NOT ALL MEN. But look back most open shop men say leave me alone let me work. 

Some union men THINK they are smarter and therefore have to FORCE, belittle, hassle open shop workers.


----------



## brian john

JayH said:


> And you know this because you've worked on how many union projects for how long?


Jay you do not have to work in union shops, as I stated above the WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU is evident, the you are stupid is evident FROM SOME IBEW members and this as I have said OVER and OVER and OVER is what hurts the union.

Even ion good times union membership was shrinking, is this because of a good image in the public eye? The union does more to hurt itself more than any boss hogs do.


----------



## BuzzKill

brian john said:


> What is weird IMO is that some folks cannot grasp the concept of free thinking and self determination.


 What Brian John said.
Brian is Union also, if I am not mistaken.


----------



## Advanced37

boulengerina said:


> So what are you saying? That southerners are dumb?


*Dumb? No... but anti union think is in bred. For what ever reason. 

*


boulengerina said:


> Or that they are suffering as a result of low Union density? And just to be sure... Do you realize that wages suck out loud here as a result of the low Union density?


* 
What was funny when I worked up north out of the hall, all the guys from down south that would come up and work off book 2, because there was no work down south, and/or all the money to be made. 

Then when I moved down south, to listen to the guys who joined the local, then talked smack about their non union job but joined the IBEW and took the money.... 

To be sure there is a big difference working union in the North East and working union down south. Why the union has been not been able to make inroads down south is unclear to me. 

What I do know, is that when the manufacturing plants moved from the North to the South, the attitude has been that the unions have tried to destroy the company's and its all the unions fault. So I have to laugh when said manufacturing plant that has been down south and non union is shut down and transferred to Mexico. (in particular, wages for this particular manufacturing plant are 13 dollars and hour on average, not a killing. Wages in Mexico are less than half that, and no union had anything to do with that. ) So it is less to do about unions and unionism and more about corporate profit. 

Lets be clear company's have to make a profit. But the problem is that it doesnt seem to stop, an nobody seems to care. I do alot of traveling. I see alot of manufacturing. I see alot of whats left of manufacturing. Plants held on by a shoestring. Electrical distribution built in the 40's, no upgrades. No upgrades period. All blamed on wages and health care costs. But most of the manufacturing plants are not union. The wages are not high by any means, and the health care plans are not gold plated. We as a country cannot compete with a wage base like the Chinese. So all those folks who worked in all those steady manufacturing jobs now work in the service industry, or for a big box store pushing the same stuff they used to make. Except now they have no health care, and make less money. At least they have a job... 


* 


boulengerina said:


> Boeing made it very clear why they came here... They don't hide the fact that they would love to pay third-world wages. The funny thing is that we are probably doing the job anyway. We just have to be sure that we do it right.


*And after that, they will move the job to Mexico or China due to Global considerations. The best part is that they will be union in China... *





boulengerina said:


> And here's another fact for your book... SC Has the lowest Union density in the USA at 2%, according to the US Dept of Labor.


*All the facts I posted are from the SC bureau of statistical something or other.... via google... *


----------



## JayH

brian john said:


> Jay you do not have to work in union shops, as I stated above the WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU is evident, the you are stupid is evident FROM SOME IBEW members and this as I have said OVER and OVER and OVER is what hurts the union.
> 
> Even ion good times union membership was shrinking, is this because of a good image in the public eye? The union does more to hurt itself more than any boss hogs do.


I won't argue that.


----------



## Advanced37

JayH said:


> I won't argue that.


Part of the problem is sales. The in the land of 0% percent financing, one pill and your healed, and up to 50% off every day... the IBEW needs a sales pitch...


----------



## boulengerina

jammerx37 said:


> *Dumb? No... but anti union think is in bred. For what ever reason. *
> 
> Did you say in-bred???? LMAO!!!
> 
> *And after that, they will move the job to Mexico or China due to Global considerations. The best part is that they will be union in China...*



But as long as Boeing keeps building their planes here, the IBEW will continue building and maintaining their facilities! 

And I think you are 100% right about the exportation of jobs. It's gotta stop. Everyone blames Obama for this situation, but those same people are forgetting who sold us out. Tax breaks to move your operations overseas??? Gimme a break! I'm sick of all the hype. I'm not the President's biggst fan, but damn... he's barely been there a year, and inherited the largest part of this mess. 

Sorry for getting off-topic, but you touched a chord. Time will judge the current President, but Bush was a noodle.:laughing:


----------



## brian john

jammerx37 said:


> *Dumb? No... but anti union think is in bred. For what ever reason. *


*


Some of this might be freedom of association an True American thought?
*


> *
> 
> 
> To be sure there is a big difference working union in the North East and working union down south. Why the union has been not been able to make inroads down south is unclear to me. *


*

Maybe owners are afraid of the DAMN UNION MENTALITY that some workers are know for.




What I do know, is that when the manufacturing plants moved from the North to the South, the attitude has been that the unions have tried to destroy the company's and its all the unions fault. So I have to laugh when said manufacturing plant that has been down south and non union is shut down and transferred to Mexico. (in particular, wages for this particular manufacturing plant are 13 dollars and hour on average, not a killing. Wages in Mexico are less than half that, and no union had anything to do with that. ) So it is less to do about unions and unionism and more about corporate profit.

Click to expand...

part of the world view of helping poor nations do better, lead by the American government. 

But NAFTA or not this globalization of business and the moving of jobs was going to happen. In our never ending search for cheaper products companies strive to get the most bang for the buck and if a laborer in China can do a assembly line job that NO ONE WANTS in America off the firm goes. No OSHA, No Union life gets easier.*


----------



## JayH

brian john said:


> But NAFTA or not this globalization of business and the moving of jobs was going to happen. In our never ending search for cheaper products companies strive to get the most bang for the buck and if a laborer in China can do a assembly line job that *NO ONE WANTS* in America off the firm goes. No OSHA, No Union life gets easier.


Now that's a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Advanced37

JayH said:


> Now that's a bit of a stretch.


Ya think? If you listen to the pundits, nobody in this country wants to work... LOL!!


----------



## JayH

jammerx37 said:


> Ya think? If you listen to the pundits, nobody in this country wants to work... LOL!!


Nobody but the illegal aliens, right?


----------



## Advanced37

brian john said:


> Some of this might be freedom of association an True American thought?
> 
> 
> Maybe owners are afraid of the DAMN UNION MENTALITY that some workers are know for.


*CONSIDERING THE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKFORCE IS LESS THAN 10% UNION, I HARDLY THINK "DAMN UNION MENTALITY" HAS MUCH TO DO WITH IT. ITS THE "WALMARTING OF AMERICA" and the fact that most companies are beholding to the stock holders, and driven to suck every dime out of such said company. Today it seems there is no value in building a company that is a benefit to your local community, or the nation as a whole. Paying taxes and providing good jobs. *




brian john said:


> part of the world view of helping poor nations do better, lead by the American government.
> 
> But NAFTA or not this globalization of business and the moving of jobs was going to happen. In our never ending search for cheaper products companies strive to get the most bang for the buck and if a laborer in China can do a assembly line job that NO ONE WANTS* (this sound bite is crap... ) * in America off the firm goes. No OSHA, No Union life gets easier.


----------



## Advanced37

JayH said:


> Nobody but the illegal aliens, right?


This is true.. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> And the IBEW is still held in high regard by many contractors, electricians, and various other firms and institutions.


And again I am asking where did you learn that, what source can back that claim up? 



> Our apprenticeship is still top-ranked in the western hemisphere.


Who is doing this 'ranking'?






> Whether or not you may hold the IBEW in high regard is wayyyyy down on the scale


I agree, my opinion means little, neither does yours. That is why I am asking for some back up of your statements. 




> but industry leaders do.


You really think that 'industry leaders' hold the union in 'high regard'? I think you have swallowed to much kool aid passed out at the hall. 




> We still hold more seats on the NFPA Code Board than any other single institution, other than the chamber of commerce, through their various manufacturing members. Check your Code Book if you doubt me.


I am very familiar with the Code Book and who makes up the CMPs.

The fact that a Nation wide organization of electricians holds a lot of seats in the CMPs of an electrical safety code is no surprise.



> But we are currently losing the battle in most areas.


Yes.



> What is surprising is in the South, where the IBEW has traditionally been very weak, the IBEW is growing. And it seems to be through good faith bargaining and flexibility with signatory contractors.


Thats cool and I hope it continues through good faith bargaining and flexibility. 



> All that is required of us (Union members) is that we carry our own weight, and give them 8 for 8.
> 
> NO WHINERS!!!!


I think that is an excellent attitude and I wished it was an attitude that I would see here. 

I do not hate the union, I know it helps me as well. I do hate almost all the BS that the unions allow.


----------



## brian john

> , I know it helps me as well. I do hate almost all the BS that the unions allow.


And that is what hurts the unions, I fell unions would still be strong but like many in power at all times the and unions post WWII -mid 60's over played their hand. There were many strikes that irked the public and due to these strikes companies tried to find other ways to skirt the work inhibiting organizations. Plus I THINK that at that time studies showed more and better productivity in open shops (industrial like steel workers)

Bob are there any shoe companies in Brockton Mass? Once the home of American made shoes. NO, strikes crippled the companies as foreign made shoes came in.

While there are many other issues at play STRIKES did hurt the union in the long run.

As for jobs no body wants, few people want. Did Mr Big "O" say anything about the trades the other night NO he said we will work for ways to pay for college. In my area and with my friends across this country many feel if their kids do not go to college they are losers. Schools reinforce the issue.


----------



## oldman

i think these days, the construction unions (i.e IBEW) have multiple challenges...

1) they lost their way and stopped providing what they promise - both to contractors and their own members....

call the hall for men, and it's a crap shoot as to whether they are productive or not...

additionally, right now lots of good JW's are out of work for extended periods while the inner circle c-suckers keep jumping the line and getting sent out to jobs...maybe this doesn't happen by you, but it happens in NJ...

2) the IBEW gets lumped in with the government employee unions...sometimes they do this to themselves...

they need to differentiate themselves from the government workers unions...these are the unions that are truly destroying this country...

it's cases like this that turn people against unions...and to most people, all unions are the same

3) the union members need to realize that they are entitled to nothing but an opportunity to prove their worth...

at this time, the unions are on a downward spiral that is not going to end, unless they fundamentally change their ways...they are the pen and paper in a computer world...


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> 2) the IBEW gets lumped in with the government employee unions...sometimes they do this to themselves...
> 
> they need to differentiate themselves from the government workers unions...these are the unions that are truly destroying this country...


I agree.




> it's cases like this that turn people against unions...and to most people, all unions are the same


Bingo, to most people any union is 'the union'.

Oh and I am sure Lawnboy sparky put his own spin on that story. 




> 3) the union members need to realize that they are entitled to nothing but an opportunity to prove their worth...


Old time values, I could not agree more.


----------



## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> Bob are there any shoe companies in Brockton Mass? Once the home of American made shoes.


Downtown Brockton looks like a war zone with long shuttered buildings.


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> Downtown Brockton looks like a war zone with long shuttered buildings.


why anyone would want to live in MA is beyond me....:whistling2:


----------



## miller_elex

oldman said:


> call the hall for men, and it's a crap shoot as to whether they are productive or not...


Try hiring off the street as a specialty contractor, that indeed is more like russian roulette.


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> Old time values, I could not agree more.


one thing to bear in mind - in an open shop, a guy doesn't pull his weight, and he's let go....

in a union environment, a guy doesn't pull his weight, and the whole union is essentially let go...


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> why anyone would want to live in MA is beyond me....:whistling2:


:laughing:


Says the guy living in NJ? 

If we meet can you stand downwind? :whistling2:


----------



## oldman

miller_elex said:


> Try hiring off the street as a specialty contractor, that indeed is more like russian roulette.


agreed...but....and this is the big difference...hiring off the street, you are not forced to pay top dollar until the guy proves he's worth it...


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> Says the guy living in NJ?
> 
> If we meet can you stand downwind? :whistling2:


not a chance, peter warned me about your 'smell'....:laughing:

any commonwealth that elects Kennedy's for 60 yrs doesn't deserve to be counted with the rest of the country...


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> any commonwealth that elects Kennedy's for 60 yrs doesn't deserve to be counted with the rest of the country...



_Knowing the battle was lost, Bob walked away head down kicking stones along the way._


----------



## oldman

Bob Badger said:


> _Knowing the battle was lost, Bob walked away head down kicking stones along the way._


it's ok Bob...at least you didn't elect Coakley....:laughing:

ironically, our new Governor is a huge opponent of Government Worker Unions...not trade unions...but last November, the trade unions stuck with the GW unions and campaigned for the incumbent...they should've distanced themselves from the SEIU...


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I have never been 'there' so I do not really know.
> 
> But I do wonder how you came to that conclusion, are you going by how you and your fellow union members feel or are you going by the general public impression of the unions?
> 
> My opinion is that most of the general public feel the union is greedy self adsorbed organization and that the members are overcompensated for the work they accomplish.


My opinion is most of the general public thinks that spending 40 grand on their brain-dead drug addicted kid's college education to land a job in a corporate cubicle farm for 75 grand a year after 12 years producing absolutely nothing = good sensible thinking; but anyone outside that box ought to live in a cardboard box under a bridge and be thankful for it.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> And the IBEW Construction branch DOES NOT STRIKE! I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that.
> 
> If we were to strike, it would have to be mandated by the International President, and it would take something severe. So severe that I cannot conceive a scenario.
> 
> Strikes are stupid anyway. The owner is usually a millionaire, and we are trying to hurt him by not making him more money, and meanwhile, we starve. Sounds completely counterproductive to me. :thumbup:


Strikes are counterproductive, it's much more effective to get your point across with a work slowdown. Work slowdowns are quiet and news cameras have nowhere to go and nothing to film, and the owner has to pay while nothing gets done.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> it's much more effective to get your point across with a work slowdown. Work slowdowns are quiet and news cameras have nowhere to go and nothing to film, and the owner has to pay while nothing gets done.


Scumbag values. I have more respect for an illegal alien crossing a boarder and finding work than I do for person who shows up to the job only so they can F the dog.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Higher wages does not necessarily mean you are keeping that money.
> 
> Look at some of the north eastern states highest pain taxes and what do they get for those taxes?


A 10% tax on 100 grand will automatically result in higher taxes than a 10% tax on 20 grand.

Of course, taxes, many utilities and real estate is higher in the higher wage states. The advantage is, everything else you pay for in life from cars to boats to life insurance to college educations to vacations to food and clothing and home furnishings is pretty much the same.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> Try hiring off the street as a specialty contractor, that indeed is more like russian roulette.


I do speciality work and I have hired better than 90% of my men off the "street", the only one's from the hall (sent to me not requested) is an apprentice


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Some of this might be freedom of association an True American thought?
> 
> 
> Maybe owners are afraid of the DAMN UNION MENTALITY that some workers are know for.
> 
> 
> part of the world view of helping poor nations do better, lead by the American government.
> 
> But NAFTA or not this globalization of business and the moving of jobs was going to happen. In our never ending search for cheaper products companies strive to get the most bang for the buck and if a laborer in China can do a assembly line job that NO ONE WANTS in America off the firm goes. No OSHA, No Union life gets easier.


*Free trade needs tweaking - fair and equal trade is smarter. Won't allow for 30% quarterly profits though... but is that really a bad thing? *


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> it's cases like this that turn people against unions...and to most people, all unions are the same


*Cases like those? He got a week suspension. It is the schools Chancellor (management) who decided to let him do nothing all day. *

A DOE hearing officer gave him a slap on the wrist -- a week off without pay -- for "conduct unbecoming a teacher." He was cleared to return to teaching. 
Instead, Schools Chancellor Joel Klein has kept the scruffy 64-year-old in a Brooklyn rubber room, deeming him too dangerous to be near kids, officials said. 
*The DOE can't fire him.* 

*This is inaccurate - The DOE can fire a teacher, if what they do is aggregious enough to warrant it - the DOE simply has to abide by the contract and take all the steps necessary. The DOE hasn't done it because they can't because the guy didn't do anything to warrant more than 1 week's suspension. *

"We have to abide by the union contract," spokeswoman Ann Forte said. 


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/school_creep_bQL5kouK80obW5MhZRyq7J#ixzz0elUfIoBL


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo, to most people any union is 'the union'.
> 
> Oh and I am sure Lawnboy sparky put his own spin on that story.
> 
> *No need the spin anything Bob - the story speaks for itself. Schools Chancellor decides to keep man earning 100k in a rubber room. This is not evidence that unions are doing something wrong. This is evidence the Chancellor has decided to make a bad management decision. *
> 
> *Keep in mind the teacher in question has been teaching a very long time - is at the top of the payscale. He didn't just collect a paycheck, he has amassed a wealth of property and is an attorney to boot. This is just the kind of guy I want teaching my kids. Do you really believe a man like this is some wild-eyed 1/2 crazed sex addict? He's not - and this is why the schools cannot fire him. This is not only a good thing, it's a great thing. *
> 
> 
> Old time values, I could not agree more.


*Old-time values like blacks are worth 3/5ths a vote, no interracial marriage, women stay home barefoot and pregnant, and bosses should have the ability to waltz up to anyone and fire them for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all, no questions asked...*

*Yea, gimme the good ol' days.*


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> agreed...but....and this is the big difference...hiring off the street, you are not forced to pay top dollar until the guy proves he's worth it...


*And chances are, he'll never get top dollar even if he is.*


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Cases like those? He got a week suspension. It is the schools Chancellor (management) who decided to let him do nothing all day. *
> 
> A DOE hearing officer gave him a slap on the wrist -- a week off without pay -- for "conduct unbecoming a teacher." He was cleared to return to teaching.
> Instead, Schools Chancellor Joel Klein has kept the scruffy 64-year-old in a Brooklyn rubber room, deeming him too dangerous to be near kids, officials said.
> *The DOE can't fire him.*
> 
> *This is inaccurate - The DOE can fire a teacher, if what they do is aggregious enough to warrant it - the DOE simply has to abide by the contract and take all the steps necessary. The DOE hasn't done it because they can't because the guy didn't do anything to warrant more than 1 week's suspension. *
> 
> "We have to abide by the union contract," spokeswoman Ann Forte said.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/school_creep_bQL5kouK80obW5MhZRyq7J#ixzz0elUfIoBL


:sleep1:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Scumbag values.
> 
> *What's good for the goose is good for the gander. *
> 
> I have more respect for an illegal alien crossing a boarder and finding work than I do for person who shows up to the job only so they can F the dog.


*It doesn't take much of a brain to figure out how to expoit the weakest among us for profit. *


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> I do speciality work and I have hired better than 90% of my men off the "street", the only one's from the hall (sent to me not requested) is an apprentice


If they were that good, why didn't they have a job?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Old-time values like blacks are worth 3/5ths a vote, no interracial marriage, women stay home barefoot and pregnant, and bosses should have the ability to waltz up to anyone *
> 
> *Yea, gimme the good ol' days.*


You are out of your mind.

You are trying to compare those issues to expecting worker to prove their worth before getting top dollar. It is a laughable comparison.



> and fire them for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all, no questions asked...


I do not see a problem with that, life is unfair and no one owes me or you or Marc, or Brian anything.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> You are out of your mind.
> 
> You are trying to compare those issues to expecting worker to prove their worth before getting top dollar. It is a laughable comparison.
> 
> *I have no problem with someone proving their worth, I have a problem with the judge who isn't exactly a disinterested 3rd party. *
> 
> I do not see a problem with that, life is unfair and no one owes me or you or Marc, or Brian anything.


*Life doesn't have to be unfair, it can be better. I guess I don't accept "Like it or lump it" as easily as some.*


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Life doesn't have to be unfair, it can be better. I guess I don't accept "Like it or lump it" as easily as some.*


Your idea of 'better' is just making it better for you and select few and not all. Don't try to make it like you are some humanitarian.:no:


At least that is how it seems to me.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Your idea of 'better' is just making it better for you and select few and not all. Don't try to make it like you are some humanitarian.:no:
> 
> 
> At least that is how it seems to me.


Not true, if that was my position I wouldn't ever have salted or organized. A rising tide raises all ships.


----------



## oldman

i honestly don't know if lgls believes what he is spewing, or just does it to get a rise...either way, he scares me


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If they were that good, why didn't they have a job?


All were employed, I hired them away from other companies. paid over scale for hourly and benefits to get WHO I WANTED.


----------



## william1978

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A rising tide raises all ships.


 Very true. That is the way it is around here the local gets a raise and then the non union contractors follow persuit. The largest non union contractor in based out of N.C. has a raise freeze right now and there are guys that say they haven't had a raise in 3 years. I wonder how long it will be untill they see a little something? Another 2 to 3 years I'm sure that company will ride the raise freeze thing out as long as the can. Heck they pay some of there Journeyman $15.50.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A rising tide raises all ships.




Your analogy is incomplete, our rising tide is anothers receding tide. The money comes from somewhere so if some people are getting more others are getting less, that is a fact.


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Your analogy is incomplete, our rising tide is anothers receding tide. The money comes from somewhere so if some people are getting more others are getting less, that is a fact.


As well as the fact that the tide will go down again in 6 hours. No doubt about that, either.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> All were employed, I hired them away from other companies. paid over scale for hourly and benefits to et WHO I WANTED.


Of course you did Brian. Did you give them all take-home flying unicorns too?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Your analogy is incomplete, our rising tide is anothers receding tide. The money comes from somewhere so if some people are getting more others are getting less, that is a fact.


So who is to say others getting less is a bad thing? Do you really thing 400% profit is fair, and that the working class should have to sacrafice to make that happen?

Trump once wanted a PLO which the building trades have never agreed to for a private developer. He didn't get it and the project proceeded, then he sold the building for 3x what he paid for it and put into it. Initially the claim was there would be no project without the PLO, that money couldn't be made...


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Of course you did Brian. Did you give them all take-home flying unicorns too?


LG:

for the 25 years I have been in business the only way to hire men (get men) in Washington DC, with the exception of a few downturns is to do what I do.

I am no saint and ONLY spend what I have too, but that is what it takes to get GOOD MEN. That this has never happened to you and your superior work ethics and knowledge surprises me. Could it be attitude.... NAH never mind.:whistling2:


----------



## miller_elex

Bob thinks it is a zero-sum game.

There is more pie for us, a larger slice.

Look at mechanical contractors, they rape customers straight-faced and never wince.

There wasn't less pie for mechanicals and plumbers, they made their piece bigger.

Mechanicals think there is competition and raise the price. We are content to bow lower than a hounds back and beg for an opportunity.

The true mechanics out there that get the job done right the first time, run a crew, and make bank every job, they are not a dime a dozen. Why T.F. would someone like that be content to work for less or lower their cost? In the ibew he will get over scale when he proves himself anyway.


----------



## amptech

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Old-time values like blacks are worth 3/5ths a vote, no interracial marriage, women stay home barefoot and pregnant, and bosses should have the ability to waltz up to anyone and fire them for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all, no questions asked...*
> 
> *Yea, gimme the good ol' days.*


You are obviously ignorant of the history behind the 3/5 count for blacks in the Constitution for census purposes. Blacks didn't have the right to vote! Counting them as 3/5 of a person in a state meant limiting the representation of the southern slave-holding states in Congress. The Founders knew that if you allowed slave-holders to count a million non-voting slaves towards representation the south would be too powerful in congress to ever abolish slavery.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> Bob thinks it is a zero-sum game.
> 
> There is more pie for us, a larger slice.
> 
> Look at mechanical contractors, they rape customers straight-faced and never wince.
> 
> There wasn't less pie for mechanicals and plumbers, they made their piece bigger.
> 
> Mechanicals think there is competition and raise the price. We are content to bow lower than a hounds back and beg for an opportunity.
> 
> The true mechanics out there that get the job done right the first time, run a crew, and make bank every job, they are not a dime a dozen. Why T.F. would someone like that be content to work for less or lower their cost? In the ibew he will get over scale when he proves himself anyway.


Yeah, yeah, yeah and over on the TURW WRESTLERS forum they are bitching about how the EC's are ripping off their customers taking all the money so there is no money left over for toilet paper much less plumbers.


----------



## slickvic277

No matter what improvements are made in union membership production(with in the IBEW this is desperately needed)There are ALWAYS going to be anti-union think tank's,the politicians,the huge contractor who inherited his company,the management,the idiots shouting about freedom in a global economy,and some office schmuck trying to win points with there boss by saving a quarter of a percent in overhead by cutting pay to the labor.

There's always going to be people in positions of decision making who think no one deserves to make money but them.Where do WE(all labor) draw the line?Were being led to believe that were actually making to much money. People screaming about union members make to much money but these same people will scream in the defense of places like walmart all in the name of "capitalism" and free market.

If we as the workers lower standards and wages you will not regain them,look what has happened in the last 10-20 years,manufacturing ran out of the country to "capitalize" on slave labor only to be replaced by walmarts and targets,the cost of being middle class went way up and the actual wages of the middle class have gone down.The one thing they couldn't outsource was allowed to be introduced into OUR country.Now you have illegal aliens working below standards that have taken decades to set,and were allowing these same pigs of capitalism to determine that americans don't want these jobs.We do but we refuse to work for free.

Were all being tricked to believe that if you work really,really,really hard you too can be at the very top and claim millions of dollars in our great free capitalistic society,but it's simply not true.those at the top want to keep there huge profits off the sweat of others and don't want you to have opportunity to be were there at. Mean while the opportunity's that do exist are shrinking.(My wifes job was outsourced to india,there's now no company in the USA that did what her job was)

So as long as we(the american work force)keep defending this "free market" based on "capitalistic ideals" .Things will not improve for union and non union alike.The only thing that is left is to allow the pigs to boat the slave labor in and allow them to take our jobs because they work cheaper and that's the american capitalistic way. 

Simply fixing what's wrong with our union isn't enough to turn the tide.
The whole system needs to change.

Will it happen? I don't know.But for the future of the middle class it does.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> No matter what improvements are made in union membership production(with in the IBEW this is desperately needed)There are ALWAYS going to be anti-union think tank's,the politicians,the huge contractor who inherited his company,the management,the idiots shouting about freedom in a global economy,and some office schmuck trying to win points with there boss by saving a quarter of a percent in overhead by cutting pay to the labor.


But the IBEW can grow it membership and gain SOME political support if they quit being lock step with the Dems. The Dems could give a rats ass because they know 97% of union dollars will go into their pockets. Business grease's both sides of the isle.



> There's always going to be people in positions of decision making who think no one deserves to make money but them.Where do WE(all labor) draw the line?Were being led to believe that were actually making to much money. People screaming about union members make to much money but these same people will scream in the defense of places like walmart all in the name of "capitalism" and free market.


HUMAN NATURE the union feels this way, correct?



> If we as the workers lower standards and wages you will not regain them,look what has happened in the last 10-20 years,manufacturing ran out of the country to "capitalize" on slave labor only to be replaced by walmarts and targets,the cost of being middle class went way up and the actual wages of the middle class have gone down.The one thing they couldn't outsource was allowed to be introduced into OUR country.Now you have illegal aliens working below standards that have taken decades to set,and were allowing these same pigs of capitalism to determine that americans don't want these jobs.We do but we refuse to work for free.


Actually actual income and spending ability has gone up or was going up.
Big "O" is going to F up a already fragile market.



> Were all being tricked to believe that if you work really,really,really hard you too can be at the very top and claim millions of dollars in our great free capitalistic society,but it's simply not true.those at the top want to keep there huge profits off the sweat of others and don't want you to have opportunity to be were there at. Mean while the opportunity's that do exist are shrinking.(My wifes job was outsourced to india,there's now no company in the USA that did what her job was)


damn all stuff is imaginary? Because I was tricked?



> So as long as we(the american work force)keep defending this "free market" based on "capitalistic ideals" .Things will not improve for union and non union alike.The only thing that is left is to allow the pigs to boat the slave labor in and allow them to take our jobs because they work cheaper and that's the american capitalistic way.


Yeah all the other systems worked so well, NAME ONE OTHER SYSTEM that works? 



> Simply fixing what's wrong with our union isn't enough to turn the tide.
> The whole system needs to change.
> 
> Will it happen? I don't know.But for the future of the middle class it does.


I have heard crap like you are spouting for 39 of the 39 years I have worked and so far those with your approach are WRONG.

The countries with NEW successful capitalism India and China turned away by the other way.

So what do you suggest.


----------



## mikeh32

im not about to read 12 pages. but i get a lot of **** from union members because i am non union. almost like im dumb, or have no idea what im doing because im not in the union.(ive been accepted once into the apprenticeship, but it was cancelled). I have tried to get into a union, but they never have any classes. It seams the only way to be accepted is to tell them im still a steward for the teamsters. then they tend to shut up pretty quick.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Strikes are counterproductive, it's much more effective to get your point across with a work slowdown. Work slowdowns are quiet and news cameras have nowhere to go and nothing to film, and the owner has to pay while nothing gets done.



Wow, that's really honorable.  Instead of an honest days work for an honest day's pay, the employer has to pay for a bunch of useless slugs to stand around. 

I can't possibly imagine why unions have such a bad public image.


----------



## B4T

Bob Badger said:


> I also fail to see how having picketers act like D-Bags helps anything at all.
> .


The kids like looking at the (20) foot rat and want one for Christmas :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> Try hiring off the street as a specialty contractor, that indeed is more like russian roulette.


Yeah union guys are always the best.

From another forum



NewOnMyOwn said:


> I came up in the union doing commercial work. A lot of times when doing demo we'd blow up circuits to trace them out using a cord and plug to a handi-box with a good switch to short it out. Or sometimes guys who like melted metal flying thru the air would just short the circuit out the old fashioned way.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> No matter what improvements are made in union membership production(with in the IBEW this is desperately needed)There are ALWAYS going to be anti-union think tank's,the politicians,the huge contractor who inherited his company,the management,the idiots shouting about freedom in a global economy,and some office schmuck trying to win points with there boss by saving a quarter of a percent in overhead by cutting pay to the labor.
> 
> There's always going to be people in positions of decision making who think no one deserves to make money but them.Where do WE(all labor) draw the line?Were being led to believe that were actually making to much money. People screaming about union members make to much money but these same people will scream in the defense of places like walmart all in the name of "capitalism" and free market.
> 
> If we as the workers lower standards and wages you will not regain them,look what has happened in the last 10-20 years,manufacturing ran out of the country to "capitalize" on slave labor only to be replaced by walmarts and targets,the cost of being middle class went way up and the actual wages of the middle class have gone down.The one thing they couldn't outsource was allowed to be introduced into OUR country.Now you have illegal aliens working below standards that have taken decades to set,and were allowing these same pigs of capitalism to determine that americans don't want these jobs.We do but we refuse to work for free.
> 
> Were all being tricked to believe that if you work really,really,really hard you too can be at the very top and claim millions of dollars in our great free capitalistic society,but it's simply not true.those at the top want to keep there huge profits off the sweat of others and don't want you to have opportunity to be were there at. Mean while the opportunity's that do exist are shrinking.(My wifes job was outsourced to india,there's now no company in the USA that did what her job was)
> 
> So as long as we(the american work force)keep defending this "free market" based on "capitalistic ideals" .Things will not improve for union and non union alike.The only thing that is left is to allow the pigs to boat the slave labor in and allow them to take our jobs because they work cheaper and that's the american capitalistic way.
> 
> Simply fixing what's wrong with our union isn't enough to turn the tide.
> The whole system needs to change.
> 
> Will it happen? I don't know.But for the future of the middle class it does.


 
Yeah, this whole piece sounds like it was plagarized from a Union handout.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> But the IBEW can grow it membership and gain SOME political support if they quit being lock step with the Dems. The Dems could give a rats ass because they know 97% of union dollars will go into their pockets. Business grease's both sides of the isle.
> 
> This is true,but labor has not found a single friend on the other side of the isle.
> 
> HUMAN NATURE the union feels this way, correct?
> 
> No,it's greed give people an honest day's pay for an honest day's work and they won't care what your profits are.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually actual income and spending ability has gone up or was going up.
> Big "O" is going to F up a already fragile market.
> 
> NO,NO,NO, the middle class wages have fallen in comparison to inflation over the last 10 years the concentration of wealth is at an all time high.
> 
> 
> damn all stuff is imaginary? Because I was tricked?
> 
> Just because you have had success doesn't mean others have had the same luck.People who have done the right thing all over the country are losing there homes,pensions,jobs and the chance to provide for there families.
> 
> 
> Yeah all the other systems worked so well, NAME ONE OTHER SYSTEM that works?
> 
> We have the greatest country on earth but it doesn't mean that things are all fine and dandy,there needs to be change if the future of working class people is to be a bright one.Our opportunities to succeed are shrinking.
> 
> I have heard crap like you are spouting for 39 of the 39 years I have worked and so far those with your approach are WRONG.
> 
> And the current approach is right? Are you under the train of thought that people get screwed and all well that's the way things are.I'm not,I don't believe that hard working people should be punished just because that's the way thing's are.
> 
> The countries with NEW successful capitalism India and China turned away by the other way.
> 
> I would hardly call those countries a success,there working class are nothing more then indentured servants,profiting no one other then there superiors,they work in slave like conditions with little reward for there labor.
> 
> So what do you suggest.
> 
> Lower taxes for the working class and small businesses,more affordable health care,and more responsibility for the largest companies and the role they have played in shaping what our country looks like today.Would all be a start.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john;But the IBEW can grow it membership and gain SOME political support if they quit being lock step with the Dems. The Dems could give a rats ass because they know 97% of union dollars will go into their pockets. Business grease's both sides of the isle.

This is true,but labor has not found a single friend on the other side of the isle. 

HUMAN NATURE the union feels this way, correct?

No,it's greed give people an honest day's pay for an honest day's work and they won't care what your profits are.



Actually actual income and spending ability has gone up or was going up.
Big "O" is going to F up a already fragile market.

NO,NO,NO, the middle class wages have fallen in comparison to inflation over the last 10 years the concentration of wealth is at an all time high. 


damn all stuff is imaginary? Because I was tricked?

Just because you have had success doesn't mean others have had the same luck.People who have done the right thing all over the country are losing there homes,pensions,jobs and the chance to provide for there families.


Yeah all the other systems worked so well, NAME ONE OTHER SYSTEM that works? 

We have the greatest country on earth but it doesn't mean that things are all fine and dandy,there needs to be change if the future of working class people is to be a bright one.Our opportunities to succeed are shrinking. 

I have heard crap like you are spouting for 39 of the 39 years I have worked and so far those with your approach are WRONG.

And the current approach is right? Are you under the train of thought that people get screwed and all well that's the way things are.I'm not,I don't believe that hard working people should be punished just because that's the way thing's are.

The countries with NEW successful capitalism India and China turned away by the other way.

I would hardly call those countries a success,there working class are nothing more then indentured servants,profiting no one other then there superiors,they work in slave like conditions with little reward for there labor.

So what do you suggest.

Lower taxes for the working class and small businesses,more affordable health care,and more responsibility for the largest companies and the role they have played in shaping what our country looks like today.Would all be a start.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> if the future of working class people is to be a bright one.


It is not going to be a bright one for the working class in the USA, the world has changed.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> It is not going to be a bright one for the working class in the USA, the world has changed.


Not any time soon,how the hell are we going to replace all the jobs that have been loss,We cannot continue to be a country of consumers,we need to be producers as well.What do we produce,other then debt?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Not any time soon,how the hell are we going to replace all the jobs that have been loss,We cannot continue to be a country of consumers,we need to be producers as well.What do we produce,other then debt?


Unless we can produce something that no one else can, or we can produce something at a competitive price on the world market we will see nothing but a lowering of our standard of living.

That said I see no way we could produce items at competitive prices with emerging countries.

We are screwed. 

Have a happy Sunday


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Unless we can produce something that no one else can, or we can produce something at a competitive price on the world market we will see nothing but a lowering of our standard of living.
> 
> That said I see no way we could produce items at competitive prices with emerging countries.
> 
> We are screwed.
> 
> Have a happy Sunday



I think we could even the playing field,just a little.Everyone wants us to buy there crap,o.k. fine,tax that crap,let there profit pay off our debt.What are these other countries going to do?Say no.They would never be able to replace us as a consumer and customer.

More things should be produced here.Important things,food,raw materials,vehicles,fossil fuels.Sure the price would go up but there would be more and better paying jobs.Besides higher prices wouldn't have to be a bad thing,people would realize that we don't need as much crap as we think we do and would be just a little more cautious with there money(as I stare at all the crap my wife has in my house)


----------



## Bob Badger

So in a nutshell you feel raising our taxes would help us?

Because putting Tariffs on incoming goods ends up coming out of our pockets just like direct taxes do.

Then I would imagine other countries might turn around and Tariff the crap out of our exports putting another nail in our production.

It sucks. 

I always imagined I would be able to do better than my Dad and my kids would do better than me, I don't think that way any longer.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> So in a nutshell you feel raising our taxes would help us?
> 
> Because putting Tariffs on incoming goods ends up coming out of our pockets just like direct taxes do.
> 
> Then I would imagine other countries might turn around and Tariff the crap out of our exports putting another nail in our production.
> 
> It sucks.
> 
> I always imagined I would be able to do better than my Dad and my kids would do better than me, I don't think that way any longer.


Not necessarily raising our taxes but yes a tariff,so what if they do it to our goods,we don't offer that many anyway.Besides,like I said what are they going to do,refuse to sell to us?We cannot be replaced we are the biggest consumers on the planet.Why should the chinese get filthy rich off us and hold all our debt?We pride our selves on democracy yet were are indebted to communist.Ironic don't you think?,we should be dictating the rules of the world market,not be a victim of it.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Not necessarily raising our taxes but yes a tariff,


And who's pocket will that come out of?

Yours and mine. 




> so what if they do it to our goods,we don't offer that many anyway


There are American comapines with American workers that would have a real problem with that. 



> We cannot be replaced we are the biggest consumers on the planet.


We can and will be to some extent.

Yes we have been traditionally the biggest consumers, as our standard of living delcines so will our consumption.






> We pride our selves on democracy yet were are indebted to communist.Ironic don't you think?


Not ironic, depressing.




> we should be dictating the rules of the world market,not be a victim of it.


There is that entitlement gene popping up, you think we are destined to be the worlds leader just because we are the USA, that time has passed, we had it for a long time and now we are loosing it.

To be the leader you have to hungry and earn it you can not legislate it to be so. We are for the most part to fat and lazy to be the leader any longer.


----------



## SGC622

I have been in the IBEW going on 6 yrs now before hand i had gone to trade school and worked non-union for about a year, in the union i barely finished my 5th year of school in this economy working. i have not had a chance to work as an electrician as of yet. I have had no problem with the union itself, the pay or the way they run until recently in this economy, i have been on unemployment for about 15 months nearing its end i am still far back on the list,what i dont agree with is their policy on working. 

I have no other profession besides being an electrician or way of making enough money so when im off unemployment i will have to work multiple jobs and such, im already working a low-paying job to compensate for my loss of pay in unemployment. I have heard from a union plumber friend that his local is allowing their members to work non union as long as they tell the union in return where they are working. Learning that i then approached one of my business agents and asked if my union offered the same deal, they did not. 

Please explain how it is justified that we cannot use our profession for anything else besides the union? to me at least they are saying hey deal with it everyone else is, you'll find something. Yet they say you cant work side-jobs, but most officials imply or hint at us doing sidework is ok, im not as greatly established in sidework to get enough for myself.

I sometime after that, revisited another option which was salting. i am going forward with that right now but what if every non union company on their list of companys to organize is not hiring, i think that it is unfair to put that restriction on us and one union already offered a solution, why cant we? i think if they fixed that alot of people wouldnt be so hesitant on going union because i feel some or a better part of them are afraid of whats going to happen when im laid off. 

dont get me wrong im proud to be union but im feeling some form of betrayal


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> I have been in the IBEW going on 6 yrs now before hand i had gone to trade school and worked non-union for about a year, in the union i barely finished my 5th year of school in this economy working. i have not had a chance to work as an electrician as of yet. ...............
> I have no other profession besides being an electrician or way of making enough money ............


*Say what?*

You're in the IBEW. I get that.

You're in your fifth year of school. I get that too.

_You have not worked as an electrician???!?!?!?_

Once again, you've been in the trade 6 years and have never worked?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> *Say what?*
> 
> You're in the IBEW. I get that.
> 
> You're in your fifth year of school. I get that too.
> 
> _You have not worked as an electrician???!?!?!?_
> 
> Once again, you've been in the trade 6 years and have never worked?


ive been in 6 yrs 5 yrs of it was school i graduated from school im not in 5th yr currently.

i have been laid off before 5th year ended so technically i have never worked as a Licensed Electrician seeing i graduated while unemployed and thats the way i have remained.

sorry i didnt realize you would single out my simple mistakes and not see the real point of what i wrote. im 99% positive you understood what i meant.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> ive been in 6 yrs 5 yrs of it was school i graduated from school im not in 5th yr currently.
> 
> i have been laid off before 5th year ended so technically i have never worked as a Licensed Electrician seeing i graduated while unemployed and thats the way i have remained.
> 
> sorry i didnt realize you would single out my simple mistakes and not see the real point of what i wrote. im 99% positive you understood what i meant.


 

I'm not trying to 'single out simple mistakes', I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

You just seem to have repeated what you posted before.... you've been in the trade 6 years, 5 of which are in school (so you have 10,000 hours of education?) and you have yet to work in the field as an electrician.

So this would make you more of a professional student, would it not?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> I'm not trying to 'single out simple mistakes', I'm trying to understand what you are saying.
> 
> You just seem to have repeated what you posted before.... you've been in the trade 6 years, 5 of which are in school (so you have 10,000 hours of education?) and you have yet to work in the field as an electrician.
> 
> So this would make you more of a professional student, would it not?


No i have worked in the the field as an apprentice worked for 3 companies in the union 4yrs 5 months, 2 weeks(it was only a 2 week call) and like 8months before i got laid off which im currently on, but that was it when i got my license(after i graduated) i was already laid off not working so what im saying i have never worked as an electrician with my license in the union. 

i apologize for the sarcasm i thought you were being sarcastic.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> I have no other profession besides being an electrician or way of making enough money so when im off unemployment i will have to work multiple jobs and such, im already working a low-paying job to compensate for my loss of pay in unemployment.


So your collecting Unemployment, and working for cash?

If so, your'e part of the problem.







SGC622 said:


> Yet they say you cant work side-jobs, but most officials imply or hint at us doing sidework is ok,


Great, another one. I swear you all are hypocrits. 




SGC622 said:


> I sometime after that, revisited another option which was salting. i am going forward with that right now


 
And I hope to god someone finds your body along side the road with a bullet in it.





SGC622 said:


> dont get me wrong im proud to be union but im feeling some form of betrayal


Ok, maybe not a bullet, but a broken arm at least.
And it would be fair in my eyes as a jury member. You attempted to break a business up, and they broke your arm. Next time it should be both arms.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> No i have worked in the the field as an apprentice worked for 3 companies in the union 4yrs 5 months, 2 weeks(it was only a 2 week call) and like 8months before i got laid off which im currently on, but that was it when i got my license(after i graduated) i was already laid off not working so what im saying i have never worked as an electrician with my license in the union.
> 
> i apologize for the sarcasm i thought you were being sarcastic.


Gotcha. I was clouded by the fact that apprentices are licensed here. You're saying you've never worked as a JW yet.


----------



## SGC622

> So your collecting Unemployment, and working for cash?
> 
> If so, your'e part of the problem.


no i legally work for an employer and claim the money i make on my weekly unemployment claim.



> Great, another one. I swear you all are hypocrits.


can you please elaborate i have no idea what you are referencing, what about working side work?



> And I hope to god someone finds your body along side the road with a bullet in it.
> 
> 
> Ok, maybe not a bullet, but a broken arm at least.
> And it would be fair in my eyes as a jury member. You attempted to break a business up, and they broke your arm. Next time it should be both arms.


i have a girlfriend and a child that i have to worry about taking care of in my eyes i see only one of 2 options unless someone advises me otherwise. First, I salt and getting a paycheck in the meantime (whats the harm in me as an individual salting when my union has already made up its mind we want this company, with or with out me its going to happen, why cant i benefit from it, right now i need that opportunity to work. Secondly, i risk working for my pre-union, non union employer (who said he would gladly take me back) and risk the union finding out and get kicked out. where does that put me?


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> i have a girlfriend and a child that i have to worry about taking care of in my eyes i see only one of 2 options unless someone advises me otherwise. First, I salt and getting a paycheck in the meantime (whats the harm in me as an individual salting when my union has already made up its mind we want this company, with or with out me its going to happen, why cant i benefit from it, right now i need that opportunity to work. Secondly, i risk working for my pre-union, non union employer (who said he would gladly take me back) and risk the union finding out and get kicked out. where does that put me?


Yeah, let's see, you would rather resort to corruption, because you say you have no other choices.


Reference the 2 broken arms.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Unless we can produce something that no one else can, or we can produce something at a competitive price on the world market we will see nothing but a lowering of our standard of living.


Why on a world-market basis? Will laptops not sell for 899.00? Didn't they sell for that when they were 899.00? Do they have to be $399.00 at Walmart?


> That said I see no way we could produce items at competitive prices with emerging countries.


Capitaslism is good, but rampant unchecked predatory capatilism is not. NAFTA supposedly opened up a large part of the world market by eliminating tariffs on imported goods from Canada and Mexico. How has this helped us? Has the decrease in wages paid to assembly line workers for Chevolet resulted in a lower American consumer price for that car? No, the difference was consumed by higher corporate profit margins. Yet the treaty was sold as cost-savings to American consumers plan. 

The bad 1/2 of that equation (lost jobs) is not being balanced by the good 1/2, (we're not seeing the lower costs...) 




> We are screwed.
> Have a happy Sunday


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> So in a nutshell you feel raising our taxes would help us?
> 
> Because putting Tariffs on incoming goods ends up coming out of our pockets just like direct taxes do.


Actually, it doesn't. When imports were taxed it was the producers, not the consumers who ate that - hence the drive to remove tariffs and the reason why imported merchandise isn't any cheaper now that there are no tariffs... 



> Then I would imagine other countries might turn around and Tariff the crap out of our exports putting another nail in our production.


We manufacture nothing, what exactly are they going to tax the heck out of???


> It sucks.
> 
> I always imagined I would be able to do better than my Dad and my kids would do better than me, I don't think that way any longer.


We can turn this around by having a policy of equal instead of free trade. Keep in mind free trade was supposed to uplift all nations involved - it hasn't resulted in anything promised except higher corporate profits.


----------



## SGC622

> Yeah, let's see, you would rather resort to corruption, because you say you have no other choices.
> 
> 
> Reference the 2 broken arms.


See I don't see it that way, you need a certain amount of people pro union in the company if you want to organize it. If you have union guys start working for them and they "educate" the non union whats wrong with that if they then want to join the union?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> See I don't see it that way, you need a certain amount of people pro union in the company if you want to organize it. If you have union guys start working for them and they "educate" the non union whats wrong with that if they then want to join the union?


In this context, I see your use of the word 'educate' as another term for brain-wash. If the people in a company want to go union, they will. If they don't, why does the union feel a compelling reason to 'persuade' them to?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Actually, it doesn't. When imports were taxed it was the producers, not the consumers who ate that - hence the drive to remove tariffs and the reason why imported merchandise isn't any cheaper now that there are no tariffs...


That is a bunch of BS, the money has to come from the customers pockets unless the company prints money. 


You sure can ignore the obvious when it gets in the way of your way of thinking.



> We manufacture nothing, what exactly are they going to tax the heck out of???


Again, that is BS.




> We can turn this around by having a policy of equal instead of free trade. Keep in mind free trade was supposed to uplift all nations involved - it hasn't resulted in anything promised except higher corporate profits.


Going back to your 'rising tide' analogy...

It is imposable for the tide to rise for all at the same time, there is only a certain amount of water.

We have had the high tide for many years, now it is receding and that cannot be reversed with a new law.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> See I don't see it that way, you need a certain amount of people pro union in the company if you want to organize it. If you have union guys start working for them and they "educate" the non union whats wrong with that if they then want to join the union?


See it this way then.

You start a business. You and your family suffers for years, barely making ends meet. You struggle, you fight to survive, hopeing someday that all your hard work and perseverance pays off. You grow your business slowly, taking your lumps as you go. You worry about your employees and their families, so you work 14-16 hrs a day to keep them employeed and their families fed. You are doing your best so your family and your employees families are secure and have a shot at living the American Dream.

And some POS comes along, backed by some corrupt labor arganization, and wants your business, so they can shut it down?

You now lost everything you ever worked for.

Can you seriuosly tell me that would just look the other way, this is OK to you?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> In this context, I see your use of the word 'educate' as another term for brain-wash. If the people in a company want to go union, they will. If they don't, why does the union feel a compelling reason to 'persuade' them to?


i had another word in there that needed the quotes but i changed it to educate, it was a sincere thought no hint of brainwash at least on my end. I have never salted before i say i was in the union for 6 yrs and 1 yr non union. i was in high school before that, i know of salting and know what it means but as far as the corruption goes, you guys know more of it then me, i have an inkling that the union does not just educate. Your probably right they probably do persuade. but I assure you that on my end i will not have have the same ill intentions when going into this, i will actually try and educate. if they dont want it im not going to keep pushing, i'll just respect his decision and move on to the next person.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> See it this way then.
> 
> You start a business. You and your family suffers for years, barely making ends meet. You struggle, you fight to survive, hopeing someday that all your hard work and perseverance pays off. You grow your business slowly, taking your lumps as you go. You worry about your employees and their families, so you work 14-16 hrs a day to keep them employeed and their families fed. You are doing your best so your family and your employees families are secure and have a shot at living the American Dream.
> 
> And some POS comes along, backed by some corrupt labor arganization, and wants your business, so they can shut it down?
> 
> You now lost everything you ever worked for.
> 
> Can you seriuosly tell me that would just look the other way, this is OK to you?


If you read my thread after you this is my thoughts on organization. 

Correct me if im wrong. but isnt the point of Organizing to bring the company as a whole into the union? not shut it down? if all the workers go to the employer and say we want to go union, the employer then has to either agree and the company joins the union collective. or he shuts down. if you say he is working 14-16 hrs a day because this selfless employer cares about his employees then why shut your doors why not join the union if your workers want to you know the benefits they are great, he would then truly care about taking care of his employees, rather than shutting down, to me what he is saying when he shuts down is "i cant handle me not having the same profit margin because of the union dues and such that i now have to pay them" is he really selfless employer you speak of then? truly caring about his employees?


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> If you read my thread after you this is my thoughts on organization.
> 
> Correct me if im wrong. but isnt the point of Organizing to bring the company as a whole into the union? not shut it down? if all the workers go to the employer and say we want to go union, the employer then has to either agree and the company joins the union collective. or he shuts down. if you say he is working 14-16 hrs a day because this selfless employer cares about his employees then why shut your doors why not join the union if your workers want to you know the benefits they are great, he would then truly care about taking care of his employees, rather than shutting down, to me what he is saying when he shuts down is "i cant handle me not having the same profit margin because of the union dues and such that i now have to pay them" is he really selfless employer you speak of then? truly caring about his employees?


Brother, you have much to learn.

The Unions want you to survive......that's original.

Go tell that to Detroit.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> i had another word in there that needed the quotes but i changed it to educate, it was a sincere thought no hint of brainwash at least on my end. .........


And that word was...........?


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> . First, I salt and getting a paycheck in the meantime (whats the harm in me as an individual salting when my union has already made up its mind we want this company, with or with out me its going to happen,


 
Your words.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Brother, you have much to learn.
> 
> The Unions want you to survive......that's original.
> 
> Go tell that to Detroit.


When i first started working in the union my first employer was a shop that had come to the union asking to become a union shop out of his own free will, he was an awesome employer really thinking of his guys. but he joined initially because he could better capture a niche he wanted to be in. so i do believe they want you to survive. i see companies that i worked along side with while i was non union and now in the union im working along side them again, because they got organized. so i do believe they want you to survive. as far as detroit, they stood for what they thought was right. i dont know the full story behind where the money was going and such but look at it at the other end, when gm went bankrupt they had a party i remember seeing in the paper maybe the union was remaining firm because they know what the CEO's are making and know they can make cuts but refuse. am i wrong? please i am here to learn and speak my mind so correct me if need be.


----------



## Bob Badger

Salting is the work of scumbags.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Your words.


whats so bad about that? if they want the company they know that in some way the members can benefit from that company in some way whether it be a niche they excel in or what have you. the company will still exist, in the end its the companies workers and the union members salting that make the decision. you've yet to make me see the down side.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> And that word was...........?


enlighten i felt it was too goddy and changed my mind


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> When i first started working in the union my first employer was a shop that had come to the union asking to become a union shop out of his own free will, he was an awesome employer really thinking of his guys. but he joined initially because he could better capture a niche he wanted to be in. so i do believe they want you to survive. i see companies that i worked along side with while i was non union and now in the union im working along side them again, because they got organized. so i do believe they want you to survive. as far as detroit, they stood for what they thought was right. i dont know the full story behind where the money was going and such but look at it at the other end, when gm went bankrupt they had a party i remember seeing in the paper maybe the union was remaining firm because they know what the CEO's are making and know they can make cuts but refuse. am i wrong? please i am here to learn and speak my mind so correct me if need be.


 
Your mind is already made up. 

You are content to believe Union propaganda.

Some of us here, who you are trying to "educate" have already worked for different Unions.

And we left them. We refused to wear blinders and tin foil hats, and we are educated to their ways.

Union workers are not bad people, it is the Union management that makes you all look bad.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Salting is the work of scumbags.


what do you say i do as an alternative, im open to ideas.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> whats so bad about that? if they want the company they know that in some way the members can benefit from that company in some way whether it be a niche they excel in or what have you. the company will still exist, in the end its the companies workers and the union members salting that make the decision. you've yet to make me see the down side.


*It is not the unions company to take!*

The Union did not take the risk and do the hard work to build a company.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> enlighten i felt it was too goddy and changed my mind


It still transposes to brainwash to me.

So why does the union have this compelling requirement to unionize all the shops? What is their driving reason behind it? Why even bother? What is it about non-union shops that makes the unions seem to think they must go after them just like the Borg must autonomously assimilate all life forms in the universe?


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> what do you say i do as an alternative, im open to ideas.


I assume you are an electrician? How about doing electrical work and if someone wants to join the union they can call the hall and ask how to do so.

I have had to work with union salts and they where all lazy bags of waste.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> whats so bad about that? if they want the company they know that in some way the members can benefit from that company in some way whether it be a niche they excel in or what have you. the company will still exist, in the end its the companies workers and the union members salting that make the decision. you've yet to make me see the down side.


First thing they do is salt it, and force it into Unionization.

Second thing is the "work slowdown" causing the company to lose money.

When the company loses enough money and files for bankruptcy, the Union sees this as one less competitor for their "special" contractors, who the bankrupt business used to compete against.

Honestly, you don't know this stuff?


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Your mind is already made up.
> 
> You are content to believe Union propaganda.
> 
> Some of us here, who you are trying to "educate" have already worked for different Unions.
> 
> And we left them. We refused to wear blinders and tin foil hats, and we are educated to their ways.
> 
> Union workers are not bad people, it is the Union management that makes you all look bad.


My mind is not made up I'm not a close minded person i just chose a path and am trying to see the good in it, you said yourself you worked different unions, so for you this is the past, for me it is the present, future and i've yet to see all the corruption. im not saying its not there i just havent seen it yet, i believe in what i see and do not get me wrong i have seen union corruption, nepitism being the biggest, but by what your saying you suggest i leave the union because i take the corruption you are telling me as my own experiences?


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> My mind is not made up I'm not a close minded person i just chose a path and am trying to see the good in it, you said yourself you worked different unions, so for you this is the past, for me it is the present, future and i've yet to see all the corruption. im not saying its not there i just havent seen it yet, i believe in what i see and do not get me wrong i have seen union corruption, nepitism being the biggest, but by what your saying you suggest i leave the union because i take the corruption you are telling me as my own experiences?


No. I'm telling you to do whatever you want.

I am also telling you, that if you make your bed in this world, you must sleep in it.

Don't come back complaining because you were lied to, and somehow it's all our fault.


----------



## william1978

Bob Badger said:


> I have had to work with union salts and they where all lazy bags of waste.


 That is usually who salts are the worthless ones.


----------



## Bob Badger

william1978 said:


> That is usually who salts are the worthless ones.


I agree and in no way do I think they are true representation of all union members. I have also worked with some very professional and hard working IBEW members.

I just really hate salts, salting and this whole attitude that any non-union shop is the unions to take if they want to.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> First thing they do is salt it, and force it into Unionization.
> 
> Second thing is the "work slowdown" causing the company to lose money.
> 
> When the company loses enough money and files for bankruptcy, the Union sees this as one less competitor for their "special" contractors, who the bankrupt business used to compete against.
> 
> Honestly, you don't know this stuff?


If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind, but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?

I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> I assume you are an electrician? How about doing electrical work and if someone wants to join the union they can call the hall and ask how to do so.
> 
> I have had to work with union salts and they where all lazy bags of waste.


yes i am a licensed electrician
but if i work non union and the union finds out i get kicked out


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? *i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind,* but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?
> 
> I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


So you feel getting what you want by extortion is admirable?

I look at it like steeling.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind, but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?
> 
> I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


Unions Unionizing companies is ALL ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY UNION management gets in their pockets, and the eliimination of competition for their own "special contractors".

Anything else is BS.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> I agree and in no way do I think they are true representation of all union members. I have also worked with some very professional and hard working IBEW members.
> 
> I just really hate salts, salting and this whole attitude that any non-union shop is the unions to take if they want to.


Again my mind is not made up and your right it is not the unions shop to take but without the employees the shop would be nothing. If the union educates the workers about the union and they want to join. they are the gears of the company they have a say. and in this economy there are a lot of really good men out on the books in normal times i wouldnt consider salting but when your going steadily downhill rather than be homeless for the survival of my family i'll salt. so you can think im worthless but im doing it for MY family.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> when your going steadily downhill rather than be homeless for the survival of my family i'll salt. so you can think im worthless but im doing it for MY family.


And remember this while laying on the side of the road with 2 broken arms.

Remember, it's not personal, it's just you tried taking away someone elses lively hood, and you tried to hurt their family.

And I am a jury member.

Good luck with that.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger;181668]And who's pocket will that come out of?

Yours and mine. 
Bob it's coming no matter what,look at the size of the debt



There are American comapines with American workers that would have a real problem with that. 
Maybe,maybe not if the cost of imports were more on par with home grown goods perhaps those same companies would gain market right here at home.


We can and will be to some extent.

Yes we have been traditionally the biggest consumers, as our standard of living delcines so will our consumption.
It doesn't have too.We can be more self reliant and produce our own goods.





Not ironic, depressing.

Makes you wonder if our system really is the best one.


There is that entitlement gene popping up, you think we are destined to be the worlds leader just because we are the USA, that time has passed, we had it for a long time and now we are loosing it.
Yes we are loosing it,but it is not lost yet.We can still be the world leaders in lots of things but the path has to change.We can't keep doing the same things over and over again and expect different results.

 To be the leader you have to hungry and earn it you can not legislate it to be so. We are for the most part to fat and lazy to be the leader any longer.I agree you have to be hungry to be a leader.But I don't agree with the fat and lazy part,not for the whole country we still work more hours on average then any other free nation in the world,we cannot be that lazy,that's the perception that wre lead to believe so we can except our jobs and economy being pulled right out from under us.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Unions Unionizing companies is ALL ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY UNION management gets in their pockets, and the eliimination of competition for their own "special contractors".
> 
> Anything else is BS.


i get what your saying, the company unionizes and thats more of the market that they monopolize but when you say thats more for union managment, they give ALOT of handouts especially in this bad time, they pay huge payouts to widowed families, gift cards for food and such, free classes(money toward the teachers) they are not completely selfish.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> And remember this while laying on the side of the road with 2 broken arms.
> 
> Remember, it's not personal, it's just you tried taking away someone elses lively hood, and you tried to hurt their family.
> 
> And I am a jury member.
> 
> Good luck with that.


where am i taking away someone elses lively hood when they have every opportunity to work, if anything they have it better being in the union the employer in all.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind, but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?
> 
> I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


If the union truly, honestly and really wants a non-union company, why don't they just proffer an offer to buy it?

Or does that make too much sense?

Or, would the union rather undermine it from the foundation (the workers themselves) and cause it to collapse so they can claim salvage rights?



SGC622 said:


> yes i am a licensed electrician
> but if i work non union and the union finds out i get kicked out


You made that bed. Now lie down in it.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> but without the employees the shop would be nothing.


Which means what, of course nothing gets done without the employees but what does that have to do with the unions 'right' to take the business? 




> If the union educates the workers about the union and they want to join.


Hmm ...educate, that is one way to put it, another way to put it is to blow a lot of hot air up their butts about all the good things about the union without being truthful that many will be out on the streets quickly. 




> i wouldnt consider salting but when your going steadily downhill rather than be homeless for the survival of my family i'll salt. so you can think im worthless but im doing it for MY family.


Well I have never got in a union members way of making a living but on the other hand I have had union members get psychically in the way of earning my money.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> i get what your saying, the company unionizes and thats more of the market that they monopolize but when you say thats more for union managment, they give ALOT of handouts especially in this bad time, they pay huge payouts to widowed families, gift cards for food and such, free classes(money toward the teachers) they are not completely selfish.


 
This is the funniest post of the day esp the last sentence.

Thanks.


----------



## SGC622

And even in your scenario, are you saying that if your family was at the brink of poverty you wouldnt do something out of desperation? if i was that worse off i would say sorry buddy i need to support my family. i couldnt live with the fact that i let my family go homeless sorry. i'll glady stand before you as jury i'll do it 100 times over if it ment my families survival


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> If the union truly, honestly and really wants a non-union company, why don't they just proffer an offer to buy it?
> 
> Or does that make too much sense?
> 
> Or, would the union rather undermine it from the foundation (the workers themselves) and cause it to collapse so they can claim salvage rights?
> 
> 
> 
> You made that bed. Now lie down in it.


the union doesnt own any of the companies in it they govern them, they see the workers as the people who make a difference in the company so educating them to join is what they are after


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> This is the funniest post of the day esp the last sentence.
> 
> Thanks.


please explain how thats funny i just named a few of the things they do.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> And even in your scenario, are you saying that if your family was at the brink of poverty you wouldnt do something out of desperation?


 
Quick key to life tip.

Don't allow yourself to get into desperate situations. You should be no where near poverty. 

You are a Union Member, who has it better than no-union workers, and the Union you belong to,who is not selfish and is there for you paying your bills and giving you food in your time of need.

At least that is what they told me the first go around, till I found out they were full of BS.

If the Union way is so great, why are you on the brink of poverty.

Is this Irony at it's best or what.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Bob it's coming no matter what,look at the size of the debt


Some truth to that no doubt.





> Maybe,maybe not if the cost of imports were more on par with home grown goods perhaps those same companies would gain market right here at home.


But they will not be 'on par', the other countries will tariff us as much as it takes to screw us back. You don't think so?





> It doesn't have too.We can be more self reliant and produce our own goods.


We could ....... but we won't it goes back to use not having the hunger, we are lazy compared to many nations.




> Makes you wonder if our system really is the best one.


No, when you look at other countries they all have issues too.




> Yes we are loosing it,but it is not lost yet.We can still be the world leaders in lots of things but the path has to change.


I do not think so, how can we be leaders now that other coutries can produce all that we tradtionlly supplied the world with.

For us to stay on top we would have to bomb all the competition back to the stone age as it was in the 50s and 60s.




> But I don't agree with the fat and lazy part,not for the whole country we still work more hours on average then any other free nation in the world,


There is a huge difference between logging hours and being productive.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Which means what, of course nothing gets done without the employees but what does that have to do with the unions 'right' to take the business?


when an employer grows and hires people, he may have started the company but it wouldnt have grown without the workers so i feel it is "THEIR" company(employer,and employees) so in democracy the way organization works. the majority of the votes win im sorry the owner started the company and is suddenly overtaken by the employees. but its the workers company too, they have every right to want to go union. so they dont take the business your not giving the employees the benefit of the doubt your looking at them as mindless workers they did this they wanted this. its not my fault you didnt see to highly of them to see that they were capable of it


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> when an employer grows and hires people, he may have started the company but it wouldnt have grown without the workers so i feel it is "THEIR" company(employer,and employees) so in democracy the way organization works. the majority of the votes win im sorry the owner started the company and is suddenly overtaken by the employees. but its the workers company too, they have every right to want to go union. so they dont take the business your not giving the employees the benefit of the doubt your looking at them as mindless workers they did this they wanted this. its not my fault you didnt see to highly of them to see that they were capable of it


Now your talking out you ass big time.

It's the employees company?

Cut me a break.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Now your talking out you ass big time.
> 
> It's the employees company?
> 
> Cut me a break.


thats your view i dont agree 
a good working company where the employer is getting the most productivity out of their workers has trust, respect, and above all is a TEAM. You have rankings and such i believe you are set in your ways and are refusing to look outside the box, i have taken what everyone has said and remained open to it critizism and all. i feel you believe what you believe because you cant respect the workers and view them as individuals that are part of this well oiled machine that works together as one.


and correction i said it was the employers/employees company.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> the union doesnt own any of the companies in it they govern them, .........


They govern what they do not own? How is that possible?

I don't own the drug store down the street, but I can somehow tell them how to conduct their business?



SGC622 said:


> ...........they see the workers as the people who make a difference in the company so educating them to join is what they are after


So have the workers apply for jobs at union shops. Is that so hard to do?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> when an employer grows and hires people, he may have started the company but it wouldnt have grown without the workers so i feel it is "THEIR" company(employer,and employees) so in democracy the way organization works. .......


 
You don't run a business, do you?

For some reason, you think that someone else's hard work, blood sweat and tears, everything they laid on the line in the past is now somehow part of YOUR entitlement in life?

I truly feel sorry for you.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> when an employer grows and hires people, he may have started the company but it wouldnt have grown without the workers so i feel it is "THEIR" company(employer,and employees)


No way, the employees where compinsated by the hour for their work if the company made money on a job or not. The employees never took any risk, they show up they get paid. On the other hand if the owner bids a job wrong he may be paying for the privlage to complete that job.

Now if the employees had some deal from the beginning where they had a share in the company and made less when the company made less and made more when the company made more then I _might_ see it that your way.




> so in democracy the way organization works


A company is not a democaracy.



> im sorry the owner started the company and is suddenly overtaken by the employees. but its the workers company too,


NO it is not their comapny, it is the company they work for.




> they have every right to want to go union.


Yes, they certainly do have right to choose if they want to work union or merit. I just do not agree they have a right to force a merit shop to go union. If they want to work union go apply at a union shop.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> They govern what they do not own? How is that possible?
> 
> I don't own the drug store down the street, but I can somehow tell them how to conduct their business?


yes you can if they are affecting your neighborhood and you and your neighbors start a petition and you get everyone to do it and force the drugstore to conform? is that not persuasion? and alot of people do it so are they viewed the same way by you like union salters are? 



> So have the workers apply for jobs at union shops. Is that so hard to do?


 But why? they are working for a perfectly good company now, this idea was brought to them, while working for the company its not like they were like oh i want to work for the union i should go sign up. its not that easy they are the team im talking about they know each other why break up whats does not need to be fixed they work well with each other and will do better together than leaving their your own. thats just my view your obviously entitled to yours.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> But why?


Because it is not their company to make the rules of.

As 480 pointed out there is an owner that likely worked very hard to build a business to call their own. 

If I want Chinese food I don't go to an Italian restaurant and protest till they start serving it.


----------



## SGC622

No way, the employees where compinsated by the hour for their work if the company made money on a job or not. The employees never took any risk, they show up they get paid. On the other hand if the owner bids a job wrong he may be paying for the privlage to complete that job.

But its law thats the way it is suppose to be done. If the employees have a majority vote then the outcome is inevitable.

and where is the employer if the employees just up and quit? yes he can hire more but fast enough? does he know whats going on every job and what the last guy was thinking and get the new guys started and not loose money? he is dependent on the company especially if his company is huge.

Now if the employees had some deal from the beginning where they had a share in the company and made less when the company made less and made more when the company made more then I _might_ see it that your way.




A company is not a democaracy.
ok the government is a democracy it governs everything even those companies, so how is the union wrong in doing the same? it is the established form of government. are you then saying that we need to reconsider as a nation our way of goverment? 



Yes, they certainly do have right to choose if they want to work union or merit. I just do not agree they have a right to force a merit shop to go union. If they want to work union go apply at a union shop.
but they like it at this company


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> yes you can if they are affecting your neighborhood and you and your neighbors start a petition and you get everyone to do it and force the drugstore to conform? is that not persuasion? ?.......


And by what law is the drug store compelled to comply with our demands?

If enough people showed up at your front door with a petition saying you should let us all in to take what we damned well pleased, would you gladly step out of the way, or would you call the police?


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger;181807]No way, the employees where compinsated by the hour for their work if the company made money on a job or not. The employees never took any risk, they show up they get paid. On the other hand if the owner bids a job wrong he may be paying for the privlage to complete that job.

Now if the employees had some deal from the beginning where they had a share in the company and made less when the company made less and made more when the company made more then I _might_ see it that your way.




A company is not a democaracy.
Actually under the NLRA of 1935 makes the work place more of a democracy then you might think. 



NO it is not their comapny, it is the company they work for.

Yes but they employees have certain rights protected by law,one of those rights is to join a union for collective bargaining.


Yes, they certainly do have right to choose if they want to work union or merit. I just do not agree they have a right to force a merit shop to go union. If they want to work union go apply at a union shop.
Under the law they do have the right to have representation to capitalize off there labor just like the employer is capitalizing off there labor.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Because it is not their company to make the rules of.
> 
> As 480 pointed out there is an owner that likely worked very hard to build a business to call their own.
> 
> If I want Chinese food I don't go to an Italian restaurant and protest till they start serving it.


but if no one goes to that restaurant because of that, the company will either go under or conform to the demand, am i wrong?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> But its law thats the way it is suppose to be done. If the employees have a majority vote then the outcome is inevitable.




Where in my company have I given my employees the privelidge to vote on company?




SGC622 said:


> and where is the employer if the employees just up and quit? yes he can hire more but fast enough? does he know whats going on every job and what the last guy was thinking and get the new guys started and not loose money? he is dependent on the company especially if his company is huge.


That's part of the risk he takes, and *he* is compensated for taking that risk with something called PROFIT. Since the employees are not taking that risk, they do NOT get that thing called PROFIT.





SGC622 said:


> ok the government is a democracy it governs everything even those companies, so how is the union wrong in doing the same? it is the established form of government. are you then saying that we need to reconsider as a nation our way of goverment?


*The government has been given it's authority by the people, not taken it by force.*





SGC622 said:


> but they like it at this company


So why change anything?


----------



## william1978

:yawn: :yawn:


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> but if no one goes to that restaurant because of that, the company will either go under or conform to the demand, am i wrong?


And it still didn't serve you what you wanted, did it?

And it still went out of business, just like when the union takes over a non-union shop, didn't it?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> And by what law is the drug store compelled to comply with our demands?
> 
> If enough people showed up at your front door with a petition saying you should let us all in to take what we damned well pleased, would you gladly step out of the way, or would you call the police?


i would call the police because thats a violation of my rights. 

Companies do not have rights, therefore they can be changed. 

Not necessarily unfair change, i mean it is still passed through the selectmen of the town in issue 

For example in my neighborhood they were building a CVS, they wanted to go 24hrs we petitioned and it closed at 10, we also agreed they would put a fence up along the neighborhood between the business and us. as well as strategically aim the parking lot lights so as to not shine directly into the back of our homes.


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> Yes but they employees have certain rights protected by law,one of those rights is to join a union for collective bargaining..........


Yep. By all means, let them join the union. Just don't force his employer to do so..... let him decide the best course of action for him and his company.



SGC622 said:


> .......For example in my neighborhood they were building a CVS, they wanted to go 24hrs we petitioned and it closed at 10, we also agreed they would put a fence up along the neighborhood between the business and us. as well as strategically aim the parking lot lights so as to not shine directly into the back of our homes.


How great is was that the company and it's owner(s) were able to negotiate an agreement. I'm sure they made that decision based as reasonable business people, not because some union officer told they must do so. If they didn't, would you feel compelled to unionize them so you could force your feelings on them?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> .......Companies do not have rights, therefore they can be changed. ........


What in the world have you been drinking, smoking, snorting or shooting up?

Are you freaking serious?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> And it still didn't serve you what you wanted, did it?
> 
> And it still went out of business, just like when the union takes over a non-union shop, didn't it?


 the answer was simple expand your menu, they chose to go under i chose not to go there ,aka freedom of choice. its this isnt even a union in action doing this it is people in society, who you are among of, you possible had that same affect on a company near you, did you ever not go to a company because you didnt like what they had? arent you guilty of doing the same thing in a sense?


----------



## william1978

SGC622===rewire????????


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> What in the world have you been drinking, smoking, snorting or shooting up?
> 
> Are you freaking serious?


i was referring to said "companies" as an entity for my example on that post, im aware of the obvious rights companies have.


----------



## SGC622

william1978 said:


> SGC622===rewire????????


huh?


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Now your talking out you ass big time.
> 
> It's the employees company?
> 
> Cut me a break.



It's not the employees company but they have more of a say then you like to think,

http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx

It's the law,it was put in place so labor had a fair chance to capitalize of there blood,sweat and tears.To keep greedy business owners honest.It wasn't that long ago in history that we had sweat shops and slavery right here in the good ole' US of A.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> but if no one goes to that restaurant because of that, the company will either go under or conform to the demand, am i wrong?


Of course and that CHOICE is the owners to make the customers 'voted' by showing up or not.

In the same way if employees do not like the working conditions at a certain company can choose not to work their, if the owner cannot find away to keep employees they will go out if businesses.


----------



## Bob Badger

william1978 said:


> :yawn: :yawn:



I hear ya but I am really bored. :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> the answer was simple expand your menu, they chose to go under i chose not to go there ,aka freedom of choice.


But this freedom of choice, it does somehow not apply to non-union shop owners?



SGC622 said:


> its this isnt even a union in action doing this it is people in society,


So everyone in our soceity is a salt now?



SGC622 said:


> who you are among of, you possible had that same affect on a company near you, did you ever not go to a company because you didnt like what they had?


By doing so, I am affording that business owner his choice.... provide me with a product or service I want, or I will go someone else. I DO NOT force him to do things my way.... I allow him to make a business decision. I DO NOT try to speak to every one of his employees in an effort to turn them against him.



SGC622 said:


> arent you guilty of doing the same thing in a sense?


Uh, no.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> Yep. By all means, let them join the union. Just don't force his employer to do so..... let him decide the best course of action for him and his company.
> 
> 
> 
> How great is was that the company and it's owner(s) were able to negotiate an agreement. I'm sure they made that decision based as reasonable business people, not because some union officer told they must do so. If they didn't, would you feel compelled to unionize them so you could force your feelings on them?


first off if you read my earlier threads i said if i salt i would not force my feelings on them but educate them. do it the way it should be done. it is great that they could come up to an agreement, and i do see what your saying about it being unfair to the employer, it seems everyone has a say but the employer. but what im saying is that if you look at the company as a whole, if all the employees vote union, the employer doesnt have a choice. because they win by majority.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> huh?


 
It's too long a story to reiterate here.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Of course and that CHOICE is the owners to make the customers 'voted' by showing up or not.
> 
> In the same way if employees do not like the working conditions at a certain company can choose not to work their, if the owner cannot find away to keep employees they will go out if businesses.



Bob if that was the way it was to work(the if you don't like it you can quit attitude)Then the employers would soon dictate all the conditions and wages,and there would be no alternative for the labor.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> first off if you read my earlier threads i said if i salt i would not force my feelings on them but educate them. do it the way it should be done. it is great that they could come up to an agreement, and i do see what your saying about it being unfair to the employer, it seems everyone has a say but the employer. but what im saying is that if you look at the company as a whole, if all the employees vote union, the employer doesnt have a choice. because they win by majority.


So, explain to me the process of salting. Exactly, how does that work?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Actually under the NLRA of 1935 makes the work place more of a democracy then you might think.


It is not a democracy. 



> Yes but they employees have certain rights protected by law,one of those rights is to join a union for collective bargaining.


Yeah, I think the law goes to far. IMO they certainly have a right to go join a union, no should have right to force company owner go union.


----------



## BuzzKill

SGC622 said:


> ok the government is a democracy


 This country is a representative republic, NOT a democracy! A democracy is mob rule.


----------



## william1978

Bob Badger said:


> I hear ya but I am really bored. :laughing:


 Yea, I am waiting for some ball games to start.:thumbup:


----------



## SGC622

But this freedom of choice, it does somehow not apply to non-union shop owners?



So everyone in our soceity is a salt now?
if you want to look at it that way, directly or indirectly they are effectively salting.

By doing so, I am affording that business owner his choice.... provide me with a product or service I want, or I will go someone else. I DO NOT force him to do things my way.... I allow him to make a business decision. I DO NOT try to speak to every one of his employees in an effort to turn them against him.
i never said in my not going to that restaurant that i did not give that owner his own choice. i merely entertain the idea that if everyone wanted italian food from a chinese food store, and got no business because of it they would either have to change or go under



Uh, no.
yes


> By doing so, I am affording that business owner his choice.... provide me with a product or service I want, or I will go someone else. I DO NOT force him to do things my way.... I allow him to make a business decision. I DO NOT try to speak to every one of his employees in an effort to turn them against him.


this sounds like you've admitted to it


----------



## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> Yea, I am waiting for some ball games to start.:thumbup:


You mean there's a ball game today?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Bob if that was the way it was to work(the if you don't like it you can quit attitude)Then the employers would soon dictate all the conditions and wages,and there would be no alternative for the labor.


I believe in a free market.

For another thing this is not 1900, this is 2010 and there are many more protections for workers that have nothing to do with the union.

Minimum wages, minimum safety standards, maximum working hrs etc.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> So, explain to me the process of salting. Exactly, how does that work?


look back in the forum i believe page 14 or something i had already said what i thought


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> if you want to look at it that way, directly or indirectly they are effectively salting.
> 
> i never said in my not going to that restaurant that i did not give that owner his own choice. i merely entertain the idea that if everyone wanted italian food from a chinese food store, and got no business because of it they would either have to change or go under
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes
> 
> this sounds like you've admitted to it




Yep.

Rewire's back.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> It is not a democracy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think the law goes to far. IMO they certainly have a right to go join a union, no should have right to force company owner go union.



But being denied a right to vote to be union would basically make the NLRA null and void.Again the employer would dictate all wages and conditions leaving labor with no recourse.

We might as well as do away with 40 hour work weeks,minimum wage,child labor laws because if these laws were not in place employers would surely take advantage to increase there own profits.


----------



## SGC622

BuzzKill said:


> This country is a representative republic, NOT a democracy! A democracy is mob rule.


It is publicly known to everyone as a Democracy im not getting into specifics of peoples opinions of how they figure it runs as. opinion or fact.


----------



## william1978

480sparky said:


> You mean there's a ball game today?


 Yea I think there is one today.:laughing: I'm going to watch my Tarheels loose again then I'm going to watch the super bowl.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> look back in the forum i believe page 14 or something i had already said what i thought


I'm not going to wade through all that to find something that may or may not be there.

Just tell me what 'salting' is.


----------



## william1978

480sparky said:


> Yep.
> 
> Rewire's back.


 :laughing::laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> Yea I think there is one today.:laughing: I'm going to watch my Tarheels loose again then I'm going to watch the super bowl.


 
You have a bowl you think is super? What's super about it? Why do you think it's super?

Or do you mean your supper bowl?


----------



## BuzzKill

william1978 said:


> Yea I think there is one today.:laughing: I'm going to watch my Tarheels loose again then I'm going to watch the super bowl.


 Ahh! A tar heels fan!


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Of course and that CHOICE is the owners to make the customers 'voted' by showing up or not.
> 
> In the same way if employees do not like the working conditions at a certain company can choose not to work their, if the owner cannot find away to keep employees they will go out if businesses.



Ok so the employer has a choice to go union or not, but the union will still take his employees because of their interest in going union, if upon the owners decision they still want to go union.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> I believe in a free market.
> 
> For another thing this is not 1900, this is 2010 and there are many more protections for workers that have nothing to do with the union.
> 
> Minimum wages, minimum safety standards, maximum working hrs etc.



But were did these rights come from?Who is the chief enforcer of these laws?Organized labor.With out the right of collective bargaining there is no backbone to these laws,you don't think the government would enforce these laws do you?Our government right now are some of the biggest opponents of workers rights.


----------



## william1978

BuzzKill said:


> Ahh! A tar heels fan!


 Yes Sir, When ever I get cut I bleed tarheel blue.:thumbsup:


----------



## william1978

480sparky said:


> You have a bowl you think is super? What's super about it? Why do you think it's super?
> 
> Or do you mean your supper bowl?


 :laughing: You know what I meant.







Back to the salting thing.:thumbup:


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> I'm not going to wade through all that to find something that may or may not be there.
> 
> Just tell me what 'salting' is.


this is what i believe salting to be, 
you get a couple union guys to spread the word about the union through educating the workers and upon them knowing and making their decision they can band together and go to the employer and say we want to go union and the employer has to decide if he wants to go union or loose his workers to the union because they still want to go after learning about it and its benefits.


----------



## BuzzKill

william1978 said:


> Yes Sir, When ever I get cut I bleed tarheel blue.:thumbsup:


 black and gold here, sir.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But being denied a right to vote to be union would basically make the NLRA null and void.


If the union is as good as it says it is workers should seek it out, the union should not have to salt.




> Again the employer would dictate all wages and conditions leaving labor with no recourse.


The recourse is not to work there. It's called personally responsibility.

And lets not forget I am not advocating the end or abolishment of the union, I am only saying that the unions salting tactics are reprehensible and should be prohibited.




> We might as well as do away with 40 hour work weeks,minimum wage,child labor laws because if these laws were not in place employers would surely take advantage to increase there own profits.


Again I am not saying to do away with the union and nobody has suggested doing away with the existing protections.


----------



## SGC622

red white and blue for the dynasty. even tho they didnt make it


----------



## william1978

BuzzKill said:


> black and gold here, sir.


 Georgia Tech?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> this is what i believe salting to be,
> you get a couple union guys to spread the word about the union through educating the workers and upon them knowing and making their decision they can band together and go to the employer and say we want to go union and the employer has to decide if he wants to go union or loose his workers to the union because they still want to go after learning about it and its benefits.


Again, why not just have the workers go apply at a union shop? With more workers on the payroll, they can take a larger share of the market... bid on more and larger projects..... make more money.

How is that any different?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But were did these rights come from?


The union cannot claim they are the only reason those rights exist, human rights have been increasing on all fronts.


> Who is the chief enforcer of these laws?


Not the union for me, if my employer tried to cheat my pay it would not be the union helping me out it would be the DOL.



> With out the right of collective bargaining there is no backbone to these laws,


Thats bull.



> you don't think the government would enforce these laws do you?


I do think that and they do enforce these rules.

The govt enforces animal protection laws, do the animals have a union?

The govt helps illegal aliens, do they have a union.




> Our government right now are some of the biggest opponents of workers rights.


That truly depends on your own feelings.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> If the union is as good as it says it is workers should seek it out, the union should not have to salt.


how can the workers salt themselves if they are not educated, we are merely educating them they are doing the rest. we are just showing them their possibilities.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> how can the workers salt themselves if they are not educated, we are merely educating them they are doing the rest. we are just showing them their possibilities.


Again it is called _personal responsibility_.

If I want to be an electrician I have to figure out I need to go to school and get a license, if I want to be in the union I should be able to figure out how to call a union hall and ask how to join.

It is not like the union is a secret society that no one know about.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> Again, why not just have the workers go apply at a union shop? With more workers on the payroll, they can take a larger share of the market... bid on more and larger projects..... make more money.
> 
> How is that any different?


you ever notice forums get no where? because when issues are talked about and they are pages back no one wants to go back and read to get the full story. i explained my response to this question as well. 

A company has a customer base, if the workers join the union separately thats fine but the union could have benefited more from the workers, in a package deal with the company too so that they could add the niche/ customer base to their union group.


----------



## BuzzKill

william1978 said:


> Georgia Tech?


 ACC champs, yes sir.


----------



## slickvic277

> Bob Badger;181875]If the union is as good as it says it is workers should seek it out, the union should not have to salt


I agree that some salting tactics are damaging to the union and the company's but lots of employer's deny the right of CHOICE to there labor if a salt is simply there to inform the work force of there rights then I see nothing wrong with it.




> The recourse is not to work there. It's called personally responsibility.


But like I said if there's no action to take all employers would dictate wages and conditions,that's never beneficial to labor,soon the condition and wages would start to decline,were already seeing this to some extent.



> And lets not forget I am not advocating the end or abolishment of the union, I am only saying that the unions salting tactics are reprehensible and should be prohibited.


Yes they have been.but lots and lots of businesses,contractors and companies have themselves done some reprehensible things.




> Again I am not saying to do away with the union and nobody has suggested doing away with the existing protections.


No you didn't but you suggested limiting the ability of the workers choice and when we do that the other protections would follow suit.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Again it is called _personal responsibility_.
> 
> If I want to be an electrician I have to figure out I need to go to school and get a license, if I want to be in the union I should be able to figure out how to call a union hall and ask how to join.
> 
> It is not like the union is a secret society that no one know about.


yes but people are so quickly to pass off the possibilities because they deem them too hard or do not want to pursue them because they are lazy. thats a problem society is lazy like i said we are just showing them their possibilities and showing them how easy it is to join


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> lots of businesses,contractors and companies have themselves done some reprehensible things.


I agree, people are people, some suck.




> No you didn't but you suggested limiting the ability of the workers choice and when we do that the other protections would follow suit.


I am saying that if anyone wants to go union they have every right in the world to drive down to the hall and get educated about it. I see no reason they should have a right to vote a merit shop into a union.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> In this context, I see your use of the word 'educate' as another term for brain-wash. If the people in a company want to go union, they will. If they don't, why does the union feel a compelling reason to 'persuade' them to?


How would the people in a company "go union" if none of them have any idea how to go about it? Another way to look at it, why does an electrical shop have to advertize? If people are unhappy with their current electrical contractor they'll seek out a different one, right?


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> I am saying that if anyone wants to go union they have every right in the world to drive down to the hall and get educated about it. I see no reason they should have a right to vote a merit shop into a union.


I agree but on the other hand the union is looking out for itself if they see themselves benefiting from it whether it be they are eliminating competition or what have you, doesnt the union have a right to pursue what it needs/wants?


----------



## SGC622

that was an excellent point LawnGuyLandSparky, if this were facebook it would say
SGC622 likes this lol


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How would the people in a company "go union" if none of them have any idea how to go about it?


When you wanted to get license to drive a car how did you know how to go about it? 

When you wanted to buy a home how did you know how to about it?

When you want to do something you go and ask the right people, they do not come to you.





> Another way to look at it, why does an electrical shop have to advertize? If people are unhappy with their current electrical contractor they'll seek out a different one, right?


Not the same at all.

There is usually only one union to choose as employee of a specific company, there are hundreds of ECs to choose from as a customer.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> I agree but on the other hand the union is looking out for itself if they see themselves benefiting from it whether it be they are eliminating competition or what have you, doesnt the union have a right to pursue what it needs/wants?


The union does not have to take over another shop to survive, of course the folks employed directly by Union hall all benefit from more dues.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> When you wanted to get license to drive a car how did you know how to go about it?
> 
> When you wanted to buy a home how did you know how to about it?


these things you stated if you want to get by in life you need to acquire except for a house people strive for that. 
the union is not something that needs to happen in your life time but you could benefit from being a part of it, so with the negative propaganda of the union and ignorance of many we as a union put ourselves out there to be heard, seen and have a chance to state our side.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> I agree but on the other hand the union is looking out for itself if they see themselves benefiting from it whether it be they are eliminating competition or what have you, doesnt the union have a right to pursue what it needs/wants?


 
So it's my duty to 'educate' union electricians about the advanatages of working for an open shop?

I can legally enter a union shop and tell the workers they have a choice to work non-union, and they can gather together and tell their boss to either become a merit shop or........ wait, what's the other choice I can cive them?

Oh, yea, go out of business.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> That is a bunch of BS, the money has to come from the customers pockets unless the company prints money.
> 
> You sure can ignore the obvious when it gets in the way of your way of thinking.


Ahh but there is the rub - once out of the customer's pockets, how is the money split between the company, the cost to get the goods delivered, and the tariffs? 

The undeniable fact is Bob Badger... a consumer will pay only up to a set price for a commodity and no more. A company has to meet the price point with the tariffs in mind. 


> Again, that is BS.


BS? Take a look at our trade deficit and how it's been growing. 



> Going back to your 'rising tide' analogy...
> 
> It is imposable for the tide to rise for all at the same time, there is only a certain amount of water.


I'm not concerned about "all" I'm concerned about the well being of working-class Americans first and foremost, American invested corporations second. I'll let China and Mexico worry about themselves. 



> We have had the high tide for many years,


Yes, for many years we had import tariffs and trade restrictions, only one parent worked, everyone (practically) had health coverage, jobs were plentiful, consumers didn't seek out the cheapest piece of crap they could find, and corporations were happy earning a 6-8% ROI...



> now it is receding and that cannot be reversed with a new law.


Sure it can...


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How would the people in a company "go union" if none of them have any idea how to go about it? Another way to look at it, why does an electrical shop have to advertize? If people are unhappy with their current electrical contractor they'll seek out a different one, right?


Yep, they're allowed to make their own choices. Too bad their boss isn't allowed that consideration.

If a worker is too stupid to understand they're not happy with their current employment, why do you think it's your God-given right to put his company in the ground?


----------



## Bob Badger

480sparky said:


> So it's my duty to 'educate' union electricians about the advanatages of working for an open shop?
> 
> I can legally enter a union shop and tell the workers they have a choice to work non-union, and they can gather together and tell their boss to either become a merit shop or........ wait, what's the other choice I can cive them?
> 
> Oh, yea, go out of business.


Oh thats just crazy talk now, equal rights ha ha ha, nope your just an open shop owner you have no rights but to pay taxes. :laughing:


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> So, explain to me the process of salting. Exactly, how does that work?


Just in case you were not being facetious.

Salting is a Union employee working with the local's approval at a non-union shop and passing on information about the union to employees of the non-union shop.

In our local only outstanding producers are allowed to salt a project. They must complete a salting course, I believe it is 10 hours, and they must abide by all regulations concerning union organizing.

An employee that deliberately slows down or vandalizes a non-union project is not acceptable in our local.

Across the bay in SF Local 6 may be a different story.

I have worked as a salt for a non-union contractor as a General Foreman. I was provided a company truck and ran several sucessful small school projects for him (20% profit at least on each.) 

In the end he wanted me to stay but still did not want to sign an agreement with the union. Our local did not then try to put him out of business, they simply said that you cannot keep Jay if you're unwilling to sign an agreement.

I went back to my local and he continues to contract and pay prevailing wage (he almost exclusively does school projects) but doesn't want to sign an agreement that says he must pay union scale for his employees on the few projects he does that are not prevailing wage.

He and I continue to be friends to this day and if I ever needed to, I'm sure he would give me ajob if he had the work.

That is how salting works *here*.


----------



## william1978

BuzzKill said:


> ACC champs, yes sir.


 National Champs here.:thumbup:


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> yes but people are so quickly to pass off the possibilities because they deem them too hard or do not want to pursue them because they are lazy. thats a problem society is lazy like i said we are just showing them their possibilities and showing them how easy it is to join


Then, YET AGAIN..... LET THEM JOIN.

How hard is that to comprehend?

ANYONE can walk into a union hall and sign up, can't they?

What does their current employer have to do with that choice they make? Let the workers choose where they want to work, and let the business owners choose how they want to run their business.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How would the people in a company "go union" if none of them have any idea how to go about it? Another way to look at it, why does an electrical shop have to advertize? If people are unhappy with their current electrical contractor they'll seek out a different one, right?


I agree 100% most people have no idea how to contact a union or how to form a union.You know how many times I here "so you work for a union now",then I have to explain the purpose of a union and how it works,then they look at me like I'm speaking chinese.
You know how by law MIN.wage laws and child labor laws HAVE to be posted in the work place,so should the NLRA be posted then people would be aware of there rights.

Ask 10 people how to form a union,I bet 9 have no idea.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> So it's my duty to 'educate' union electricians about the advanatages of working for an open shop?
> 
> I can legally enter a union shop and tell the workers they have a choice to work non-union, and they can gather together and tell their boss to either become a merit shop or........ wait, what's the other choice I can cive them?
> 
> Oh, yea, go out of business.


hey i understand the benefits of working open shop, thats part of the reason i started posting today because i was upset with my union for the fact that since im out of work, bound by the contract i have with them i cannot go seek work outside the union, so if there is no work in the union im screwed. unless i salt. that i feel is unfair. i believe i should be able to work non-union if need be in these hard times i would just tell them who im working for. 
I dont see why you cant legally work for a union shop you'll just have theunion workers stop and picket the job. what you want to say to them about joining open shops is your business go for it.

Also it is my belief that if a non union employer wants to close shop and not join the union its because hes only thinking of his own wallet.


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> Then, YET AGAIN..... LET THEM JOIN.
> 
> How hard is that to comprehend?
> 
> ANYONE can walk into a union hall and sign up, can't they?
> 
> What does their current employer have to do with that choice they make? Let the workers choose where they want to work, and let the business owners choose how they want to run their business.



Because that is the law,you fail to grasp the idea of fairness in the work place.in this country the labor has the RIGHT to vote on representation for the purpose of collective bargaining.If they vote no then they are not union,if they vote yes then allow the company and the labor to negotiate a fair contract.

The labor has a say in the wages and conditions of the work place like it or not.


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Oh thats just crazy talk now, equal rights ha ha ha, nope your just an open shop owner you have no rights but to pay taxes. :laughing:


 
I'd like to know how a company, with no rights, union or not, can stay in business.

Let's say I'm a developer, and I hire an EC to wire a new mall. His bid is $3.7 mil. He does the job, and when I'm done, I tell him to F--- off.

Without any rights, he can't sue me. Without any rights, he cannot lien the property. Without any rights, he cannot attempt to collect because he did not have the right to sign the contract in the first place.

I think I'm gonna try that... go down to the gas station and fill my truck up. When they call the cops with my license number (you know, the one the video camera took of me as I drove away from the pump), I'll just explain to the officers they have to right to make me pay for it.


Yea. Let's see how* that* goes.


----------



## JayH

SGC622 said:


> its because hes only thinking of his own wallet.


Aren't we all?


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> Because that is the law,you fail to grasp the idea of fairness in the work place.in this country the labor has the RIGHT to vote on representation for the purpose of collective bargaining.If they vote no then they are not union,if they vote yes then allow the company and the labor negotiate a fair contract.
> 
> The labor has a say in the wages and conditions of the work place like it or not.


 
And if the owner says 'No'?


----------



## SGC622

slickvic277 said:


> I agree 100% most people have no idea how to contact a union or how to form a union.You know how many times I here "so you work for a union now",then I have to explain the purpose of a union and how it works,then they look at me like I'm speaking chinese.
> You know how by law MIN.wage laws and child labor laws HAVE to be posted in the work place,so should the NLRA be posted then people would be aware of there rights.
> 
> Ask 10 people how to form a union,I bet 9 have no idea.


Yes and some of them have scare tactics used on them for if they ever want to go union. which isnt right


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> See it this way then.
> 
> You start a business. You and your family suffers for years, barely making ends meet. You struggle, you fight to survive, hopeing someday that all your hard work and perseverance pays off.


Read: You decided to enter into a business and whether it took your grandpappy's fortune or your daddy left it to you or you mortgaged everything you have, none of it matters as no matter how you became a business owner the rights of the employees to bargian collectively are protected just as your right to own a business is.



> You grow your business slowly, taking your lumps as you go. You worry about your employees and their families, so you work 14-16 hrs a day to keep them employeed and their families fed.


No, you worked to get jobs they could do (for you) and THEY worked so they could keep their families fed AND your family fed because you skim off the profit, like a sales broker, profit here being the difference between what they earned and what they're worth.



> You are doing your best so your family and your employees families are secure and have a shot at living the American Dream.


And without your intervention their shot at the American Dream goes with it?



> And some POS comes along, backed by some corrupt labor arganization, and wants your business, so they can shut it down?


You may own a corporation, but "the business" exists whether you're in it or not, an electrical contractor or a plumber, or you're alive or dead.



> You now lost everything you ever worked for.


That's entirely up to you.



> Can you seriuosly tell me that would just look the other way, this is OK to you?


I love it!


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ahh but there is the rub - once out of the customer's pockets, how is the money split between the company, the cost to get the goods delivered, and the tariffs?
> 
> The undeniable fact is Bob Badger... a consumer will pay only up to a set price for a commodity and no more. A company has to meet the price point with the tariffs in mind.


OK so now my choice is pay more money or go without, thanks you have done so much good. :no:



> BS? Take a look at our trade deficit and how it's been growing.


How about you look at page 9 of this

http://www.census.gov/mcd/exports/arp05.pdf

There are still many tens of thousands of American workers involved with exports.





> I'm not concerned about "all" I'm concerned about the well being of working-class Americans first and foremost, American invested corporations second. I'll let China and Mexico worry about themselves.


You can try to ignore them but it will not matter they are going to effect you anyway.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> .......... its because hes only thinking of his own wallet.


 
*And isn't THAT the reason he went into business in the first place?*


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> And if the owner says 'No'?


He can then close his shop. Many do and re-open under a different name.


----------



## SGC622

JayH said:


> Aren't we all?


yes and im being ostrasized for it cause i want to salt to support my family.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Brother, you have much to learn.
> 
> The Unions want you to survive......that's original.
> 
> Go tell that to Detroit.


While the industries existed in America EVERYONE profited from their participation - the corporations, the union, the members... not just the stockholders. As a result, hundreds of thousands of families were able to live in dignity, enjoy life, vacations, recreational activities, send their kids to college... without the UAW you'd have the same situation as we see in Mexico - shantytowns.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Ask 10 people how to form a union,I bet 9 have no idea.


I bet you are correct. :thumbsup:

Now ask those 10 people if they know how to dial 0 on a phone or do a Google search for their local union halls and I bet 9 of them could do it, the tenth is a ****** and we don't need them in the trade anyway. 
:no:


----------



## 480sparky

JayH said:


> He can then close his shop. Many do and re-open under a different name.


So why does he have to close shop? What law is compelling him to do so?


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> *And isn't THAT the reason he went into business in the first place?*



yes but someone earlier in the thread said that the non union owner cares so much about his workers and works long hours, so why would he be opposed to joining the union he still would have a profit margin. what hes not happy not making the same amount of money? i feel then thats just greed.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> yes but someone earlier in the thread said that the non union owner cares so much about his workers and works long hours, so why would he be opposed to joining the union he still would have a profit margin. what hes not happy not making the same amount of money? i feel then thats just greed.


 
All fine and well. But let him make the choice, not force it on him.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Your mind is already made up.
> 
> You are content to believe Union propaganda.
> 
> Some of us here, who you are trying to "educate" have already worked for different Unions.
> 
> And we left them. We refused to wear blinders and tin foil hats, and we are educated to their ways.
> 
> Union workers are not bad people, it is the Union management that makes you all look bad.


So, you're OK with union workers just not any kind of management in place at the hall?


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> And if the owner says 'No'?



Then get some politicians to change the law,a NLRB officer could mandate that a company recognize the union,happens a lot.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> *It is not the unions company to take!*
> 
> The Union did not take the risk and do the hard work to build a company.


The union doesn't take it. :whistling2:


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> All fine and well. But let him make the choice, not force it on him.


like i said if you view the company as a whole, workers get majority the owner still has two decisions. he has a choice. are you saying its not a fair choice?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I agree and in no way do I think they are true representation of all union members. I have also worked with some very professional and hard working IBEW members.
> 
> I just really hate salts, salting and this whole attitude that any non-union shop is the unions to take if they want to.


Aren't salts protected by labor law?

Why is it you want to be "in the game" but not follow the rules? Oh I get it... your game IS to not follow rules...


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> like i said if you view the company as a whole, workers get majority the owner still has two decisions. he has a choice. are you saying its not a fair choice?


No, I don't view the company as a whole because it isn't. And its not a fair choice if you only provide two evils to the owner.

Let the workers join the union, which they are free to do and so entitled. I have no problem with that.

If the business owner does not want to join, then that should be his choice as well. You seem to have a serious issue with that concept. Either join us, or be destroyed. 

_Resistance is futile.... you will be assimilated._ Sound familiar?


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> I bet you are correct. :thumbsup:
> 
> Now ask those 10 people if they know how to dial 0 on a phone or do a Google search for their local union halls and I bet 9 of them could do it, the tenth is a ****** and we don't need them in the trade anyway.
> :no:


But many people don't understand the concept,they don't know the option exists.And many,many,many business owners,company management,and contractors alike spread anti-union propaganda,tell outright lies and threaten people with there jobs if the "U" word is even mentioned in the work place,all in the fear of one thing,paying people more and cutting into there own profit.


----------



## LGLS

SGC622 said:


> If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind, but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?
> 
> I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


The whole message here is wrong. It's the swan song of the beleagured nonunion contractor and the same crap they all spew out to their employees when they feel they're being infiltrated ...

"The union will take over and you'll all be jobless..."
"The union will give you cards then never put you to work..."
"The union will slow down the job and bankrupt us..."

Everything a nonunion worker doesn't want to hear, isn't that convenient? :whistling2:


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> So why does he have to close shop? What law is compelling him to do so?


NLRB and the employees right to collective bargaining.

And I'm not saying it is right.

There are plenty of electrical contractors in our area that are not viable enough to be a signatory contractor.

Our local recognizes that and will not sign up a contractor who was willing if it would bankrupt his company.

On the other hand, they pursue vigorously employers that violate labor regulations. 

Yes, they try to put them out of business through the legal system if they refuse to abide by the rules the government has set forth for every contractor engaged in this field of work.


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> .......And many,many,many business owners,company management,and contractors alike spread anti-union propaganda,tell outright lies and threaten people..........


And that's a two-way street, like it or not.

I've heard my share of anti-merit shop propganda as well. They don't provide bennies..... they work the employees like dogs 178 hours a week.... they only pay them 53¢ and hour.....


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> they only pay them 53¢ and hour.....


You gave your guys a raise??? :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But many people don't understand the concept,they don't know the option exists.


Almost every person in America knows there are unions.




> And many,many,many business owners,company management,and contractors alike spread anti-union propaganda,tell outright lies and threaten people with there jobs if the "U" word is even mentioned in the work place,all in the fear of one thing,paying people more and cutting into there own profit.


Which is pretty much exactly what many many salts do. Spread lies, make threats etc.


----------



## LGLS

SGC622 said:


> If it forces it to unionize? and its on its way to be a union company whats the point in the work slowdown? i see the work slow down as a tactic in getting a persistent boss that keeps saying no to change their mind, but if they willingly say yes, why work slowdown?
> 
> I dont necessarily agree with the work slowdown but if the employees want to be union, whats stopping the employer from saying yes? he's not gonna get as much money in his pocket? what is another reason he wouldnt want to go union other than how its affecting his wallet.


If the employees want to be union there is no need for the boss to say yes. It is entirely up to the employees whether or not they want union representation the boss is not a party to that decision.

That said, there are signatory and non signatory contractors and it's easier when there is a CBA with the company in hand. Easier, but not necessary.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> No, I don't view the company as a whole because it isn't. And its not a fair choice if you only provide two evils to the owner.
> 
> Let the workers join the union, which they are free to do and so entitled. I have no problem with that.
> 
> If the business owner does not want to join, then that should be his choice as well. You seem to have a serious issue with that concept. Either join us, or be destroyed.
> 
> _Resistance is futile.... you will be assimilated._ Sound familiar?


yes of course i do i cant work a technological job and not be a nerd to some level hell yes i watch star trek. 

are the two evils, money signs falling out his wallet and even more money signs falling out his wallet? 

I am not well versed in EXACTLY how the end result of organization goes, i will say this though for two different scenarios

maybe someone well versed in the law can answer this for me.
if when presented with the workers wanting to go union the employer says no. 

A. is it mandatory he close his doors, if he says no
or 
B. His workers continue on to the union without him and he hires more guys and continues working non union.
???


----------



## 480sparky

JayH said:


> NLRB and the employees right to collective bargaining.
> 
> And I'm not saying it is right.


And it isn't right.



JayH said:


> There are plenty of electrical contractors in our area that are not viable enough to be a signatory contractor.


Yet they still have to deal with unions.



JayH said:


> Our local recognizes that and will not sign up a contractor who was willing if it would bankrupt his company.


Yet they still have to deal with unions.



JayH said:


> On the other hand, they pursue vigorously employers that violate labor regulations.


And rightfully so, no matter which side of the fence they're working on.



JayH said:


> Yes, they try to put them out of business through the legal system if they refuse to abide by the rules the government has set forth for every contractor engaged in this field of work.


And that's the way it should be..... break the rules and you pay.


But, still, owning a business that a bunch of total strangers can take from you...... just because? Sorry, that don't cut it in my book.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> If the union truly, honestly and really wants a non-union company, why don't they just proffer an offer to buy it?
> 
> Or does that make too much sense?


Unions are labor representatives, not umbrella corporations. When a company is union it isn't owned by the union.


----------



## SGC622

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If the employees want to be union there is no need for the boss to say yes. It is entirely up to the employees whether or not they want union representation the boss is not a party to that decision.
> 
> That said, there are signatory and non signatory contractors and it's easier when there is a CBA with the company in hand. Easier, but not necessary.


thank you for clarifying and sorry for the mistatment.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> ............I am not well versed in EXACTLY how the end result of organization goes, i will say this though for two different scenarios...........


So, you're basically saying, "Join the union because I've been told you'll make more money. Whether or not that's true, I really don't know. But I've taken a class that has instructed me to tell you that."

Are you for real? You *really *don't know what the end result is? I gotta tell you, that is truly sad. Seriously.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Unions are labor representatives, not umbrella corporations. When a company is union it isn't owned by the union.


No it is not owned by the union but it has to follow the unions demands and if the union demands put the company out of business the union loses nothing and moves on to the next victim ... err .. company.

Kind of like a parasite.:whistling2:



> 3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> So, you're basically saying, "Join the union because I've been told you'll make more money. Whether or not that's true, I really don't know. But I've taken a class that has instructed me to tell you that."
> 
> Are you for real? You *really *don't know what the end result is? I gotta tell you, that is truly sad. Seriously.


i konw what the end result is but i was a little shaky on whether the company HAD to go under or they could continue on and hire more guys after the organization process


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> And that's a two-way street, like it or not.
> 
> I've heard my share of anti-merit shop propganda as well. They don't provide bennies..... they work the employees like dogs 178 hours a week.... they only pay them 53¢ and hour.....



Yup the B.S. runs on both sides,but the truth of the merit shop treating employees like sh*t happens a lot,the typical model is one or two well paid guy's standing around and bossing around a bunch of $12 per hour "kids".Now god forbid that kid bust his azz and asks for a raise he has to go and kiss some jerk-off's rear for a measley dollar an hour raise.

Then he get's his raise but after working 70 hours a week year round,has the contractor tell the guy's that things are bad and he can't pay for the health insurance anymore,except the one or two guy's who are the know it all bosses.(this is exactly what happened to me)

That's the typical merit shop model,maybe not yours but that would place you in the minority. 

Right before I organized the contractor offered me and my wife H.C. under one condition,don't tell the other guy's because I been telling them for years that were getting health care but I'm not getting it for them.

thanks,but no thanks.I had know desire to become THAT guy....


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Which means what, of course nothing gets done without the employees but what does that have to do with the unions 'right' to take the business?


Why is it you insist on using inappropriate and inapplicable terms to make your points? I suppose it's because you cannot make your point with appropriate honest answers? 

Show us where any union has ever "taken" a business... 



> Hmm ...educate, that is one way to put it, another way to put it is to blow a lot of hot air up their butts about all the good things about the union without being truthful that many will be out on the streets quickly.


Ahhh there it is... 

Even if this were true, do nonunion companies explain to their employees about all the lies you're all known so well for telling? Do you tell your hires "you might be a helper for 17 years?" Do you tell them "yes you get 4 weeks vacation, it's just that you have to wait until I tell you the day before you can take it?" Do you tell them some of their paychecks will bounce, or that for months their tax deductions have really been going right into your pocket? There are people on this board all of these things have happened to.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Yup the B.S. runs on both sides,but the truth of the merit shop treating employees like sh*t happens a lot,the typical model is one or two well paid guy's standing around and bossing around a bunch of $12 per hour "kids".Now god forbid that kid bust his azz and asks for a raise he has to go and kiss some jerk-off's rear for a measley dollar an hour raise.


Sorry, I believe peoples pay should be based on busting azz and not predetermined by a contractual agreement. Life is a competition.


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> Yup the B.S. runs on both sides,but the truth of the merit shop treating employees like sh*t happens a lot,the typical model is one or two well paid guy's standing around and bossing around a bunch of $12 per hour "kids".Now god forbid that kid bust his azz and asks for a raise he has to go and kiss some jerk-off's rear for a measley dollar an hour raise.........


No, that's not the typical model. That's the vision that's been bashed into your head and you mave mindlessly accepted it. Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.

In the past, I've worked for some great merit shops. Great bennies (yes, non-union shops actually do provide bennies, despite what you've heard). Some provided more bennies than I needed (such as unreimbursed child care expenses...... I don't need because I don't have kids). 2-4 weeks paid vacation (depending on length of employment), vision, dental, health insurances (cafeteria plan, you choose what you want and at what level).... the list goes on.



Oh, and it's been a long long long time ago I even worked for $12/hour. I think it was 1984 or so.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Sorry, I believe peoples pay should be based on busting azz and not predetermined by a contractual agreement. Life is a competition.


i believe you are right in some regards.
the set rate union electricians get paid causes alot of the guys with less experience to get laid off and its tough for them to get out there unless they cross paths with a company thats willing to teach them and help them get by. 

but as far as the crap you get from non union companies vs. union here is the difference in my eyes. 

if you have a problem non union you have to either say i quit and find somewhere that will treat you right or get a couple guys together and say yea yea this is unfair you should do this for us, but most are scared becasue they will get fired. 

with the union if the shop is doing something illegal or mistreating their employees, we have a Stuart or business agent we can go to and get the issue fixed most times anonymously.


----------



## slickvic277

> Bob Badger;181963]Almost every person in America knows there are unions.


But very few understand the role of organized labor,or are familiar with there rights as labor.






> Which is pretty much exactly what many many salts do. Spread lies, make threats etc.


You have had bad experiences with salts,and I with contractors,but the statistics are overwhelming in the favor of labor,with many more workers right violation convictions then convictions for broken labor laws committed by labor unions.


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> ........with the union if the shop is doing something illegal or mistreating their employees, we have a Stuart or business agent we can go to and get the issue fixed most times anonymously.


 
Who's Stuart? Is he the Steward? :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No way, the employees where compinsated by the hour for their work if the company made money on a job or not. The employees never took any risk, they show up they get paid. On the other hand if the owner bids a job wrong he may be paying for the privlage to complete that job.
> 
> Now if the employees had some deal from the beginning where they had a share in the company and made less when the company made less and made more when the company made more then I _might_ see it that your way.


I doubt you could ever see it any other way.



> A company is not a democaracy.


True, and without a collective bargianing agreement, it's more of a dictatorship. It becomes more of a democracy when it's employees are union. 

Why are you so adamant about dictatorships, are you a commie? What do you have against freedoms and rights, especially the freedom and right of employees to decide that one-on-one is not the best way (for them) to deal with you?



> No it is not their comapny, it is the company they work for.
> 
> Yes, they certainly do have right to choose if they want to work union or merit. I just do not agree they have a right to force a merit shop to go union.


Why not? They have the right to both.



> If they want to work union go apply at a union shop.


Or they can work merit and then decide later they made a mistake.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> No, that's not the typical model. That's the vision that's been bashed into your head and you mave mindlessly accepted it. Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.
> 
> In the past, I've worked for some great merit shops. Great bennies (yes, non-union shops actually do provide bennies, despite what you've heard). Some provided more bennies than I needed (such as unreimbursed child care expenses...... I don't need because I don't have kids). 2-4 weeks paid vacation (depending on length of employment), vision, dental, health insurances (cafeteria plan, you choose what you want and at what level).... the list goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's been a long long long time ago I even worked for $12/hour. I think it was 1984 or so.


i know the bennies you can get non-union, before i when i worked union i was comming up on being eligable for full bennies from the shop but i got my chance to go union and took it. we are not without knowledge of how open shops work and do recognize their qualities, so its wrong of you to say we(union members) are ignorant to that fact.
i hope your not going by what the hot headed dont think before they speak union members say.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> Who's Stuart? Is he the Steward? :laughing:


lol thanks out of all the abortions to the english language on this forum you recognize mine, yea i made a mistake thanks for catching it lol


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> No, that's not the typical model. That's the vision that's been bashed into your head and you mave mindlessly accepted it. Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.
> 
> In the past, I've worked for some great merit shops. Great bennies (yes, non-union shops actually do provide bennies, despite what you've heard). Some provided more bennies than I needed (such as unreimbursed child care expenses...... I don't need because I don't have kids). 2-4 weeks paid vacation (depending on length of employment), vision, dental, health insurances (cafeteria plan, you choose what you want and at what level).... the list goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's been a long long long time ago I even worked for $12/hour. I think it was 1984 or so.


It's not what I've herd it's what I lived,did you even bother to read my post?Or did you stop half way through.I worked open shop,longer then I have been union,you my friend are in the minority.Like I said,good open shop companies exist but are few and far between.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which means what, of course nothing gets done without the employees but what does that have to do with the unions 'right' to take the business?
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it you insist on using inappropriate and inapplicable terms to make your points? I suppose it's because you cannot make your point with appropriate honest answers?
> 
> Show us where any union has ever "taken" a business...
> 
> 
> 
> No, no union that I know of has actually taken a businesses as in 'owning it'.
> 
> But the union does take away a business owners ability to be run as it's owner would like. To me that is a crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iwire said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm ...educate, that is one way to put it, another way to put it is to blow a lot of hot air up their butts about all the good things about the union without being truthful that many will be out on the streets quickly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if this were true,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do nonunion companies explain to their employees about all the lies you're all known so well for telling?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they lie to, but again as a man it is my own responsibility to sort the BS and spin from the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you tell your hires "you might be a helper for 17 years?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No because that is up to them, yeah they could be a helper for 17 years if they do not step up and do the work. They do not get a free pass just for showing up each day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you tell them "yes you get 4 weeks vacation, it's just that you have to wait until I tell you the day before you can take it?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, because we have clearly written and applied vacation policies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you tell them some of their paychecks will bounce,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah that happens every week so we just let them figure it out.
> 
> Actually I have never seen that happen at the electrical shops I have worked. I am sure it does happen. It had happened to me at a maintenance job and I handled that myself. I got my money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or that for months their tax deductions have really been going right into your pocket?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you tell them that the rules for their pension may be changed years from now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are people on this board all of these things have happened to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No doubt and there are many people on this forum that have been screwed by the union so I fail to see your point.
> 
> Both merit shops and union shops can be good or bad.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> Where in my company have I given my employees the privelidge to vote on company?


You incorporated or own / operate a business in the USA and your State's and the Federal labor laws as well as many other laws are unnamed 3rd parties in EVERY contract and EVERY certificate of incorporation. 

Like it or not, employees have rights. If this isn't to your liking and you really don't want to ever risk being unionized, then you're free to never hire anyone.



> That's part of the risk he takes, and *he* is compensated for taking that risk with something called PROFIT. Since the employees are not taking that risk, they do NOT get that thing called PROFIT.


Pish posh. Risk-taking doesn't make anyone king of their world.


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> Yet they still have to deal with unions.


That is a vague statement.

I'm union and I still have to deal with non-union.

I'm simply trying to point out that there are contractor friendly unions in *my *area.

Dealing with a local isn't necessarily bad.

The contractor I salted for got plenty of money in his pocket courtesy of an organized employee and quite a few free lunches from our organizer.

What's wrong with that?

Have you had any contact with the local in your area? Are they threatening to put you out of business? Are they sabotaging your job?


Just curious.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But very few understand the role of organized labor,or are familiar with there rights as labor.


I think you are mistaken, most know enough that they can pick up a phone.



> You have had bad experiences with salts,and I with contractors,*but the statistics are overwhelming in the favor of labor,with many more workers right violation convictions then convictions for broken labor laws committed by labor unions*.


And just who provided you with these 'statistics' and can I see them?


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> It's not what I've herd it's what I lived,did you even bother to read my post?Or did you stop half way through.I worked open shop,longer then I have been union,you my friend are in the minority.Like I said,good open shop companies exist but are few and far between.


 
Response Error.

Computer restart.

Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah, I think the law goes to far. IMO they certainly have a right to go join a union, no should have right to force company owner go union.


The company owner doesn't get to join, so, no worries there.

The owner does however have to abide by the law, which is to bargain in good faith with the employee's chosen representitive.


----------



## SGC622

480sparky said:


> Response Error.
> 
> Computer restart.
> 
> Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.


is he dynamic or static? that matters because if you restarted him he would be a different number if he was dynamic


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> True, and without a collective bargianing agreement, it's more of a dictatorship.


I agree. 



> It becomes more of a democracy when it's employees are union.


I agree.



> Why are you so adamant about dictatorships, are you a commie?


Yeah I am a 'commie'.:laughing:

I am adamant about it because if I hung my ass in the wind to try to start up a businesses it would be entirly because I want to do things my way and not anyone elses way.




> What do you have against freedoms and rights,


Actully I am all about freedom, the bussiness owner has rights as well.




> especially the freedom and right of employees to decide that one-on-one is not the best way (for them) to deal with you?


I am not an owner so no one has to deal with me. I am an hourly employee.

Now that said if I was an owner the freedom an employee has is tremendous, they can choose not to work for me.


----------



## oldman

william1978 said:


> SGC622===rewire????????


nah, rewire pushed buttons...this guy is just clueless...


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> .........., so its wrong of you to say we(union members) are ignorant to that fact............


And I said that........ where?:001_huh:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> The union cannot claim they are the only reason those rights exist, human rights have been increasing on all fronts.


None of the labor laws you cited are human rights.



> Not the union for me, if my employer tried to cheat my pay it would not be the union helping me out it would be the DOL.


And if your boss cheated you out of, say, 8 hours pay, and then fired you, and you went to the DOL the end result would go something like this:

"I paid him minimum wage for the last 16 hours. That's not reflected on his paystub due to a clerical error." and you would lose your case against your ex-employer. 

(Because I doubt whatever agreement exists between you and your boss is actually in writing.)


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You incorporated or own / operate a business in the USA and your State's and the Federal labor laws as well as many other laws are unnamed 3rd parties in EVERY contract and EVERY certificate of incorporation.
> 
> Like it or not, employees have rights. If this isn't to your liking and you really don't want to ever risk being unionized, then you're free to never hire anyone.....








 


LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Pish posh. Risk-taking doesn't make anyone king of their world.


 
Nope, it sure doesn't. If you manage your company poorly, you lose money instead of making any, and go out of business. If you do well, you make a profit. But the ones taking the risk are the ones entitiled to any profit.








No, wait, the Unions want their share, even though they didn't take the risk or do the work.... they'll just come in, take over my company, and run it into the ground after all the goodies are divided amongst themselves.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> I think you are mistaken, most know enough that they can pick up a phone.
> 
> 
> 
> And just who provided you with these 'statistics' and can I see them?



These statistics are available on the NLRB website

This is for the year 2008,couldn't find 2009.Its a long read but it's in there on page 16.
http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/annual reports/NLRB2008.pdf


----------



## SGC622

oldman said:


> nah, rewire pushed buttons...this guy is just clueless...


i wouldnt say i am clueless i am explaining what i see and have stated my faults or areas of weakness. So where do you get off saying that old man


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> Response Error.
> 
> Computer restart.
> 
> Borg assimilation complete. You are now Unit 3BRT556OU9.



So your experiences are the only ones that matter,Huh?If someone else has experience's that conflict with yours then there just mindless robots.

So your opinions are fact's,I guess all non union guy's make the prevailing wage too,right.

cut me a brake.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> None of the labor laws you cited are human rights.


BZZZZ sorry you lose, pleae try again.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/





> And if your boss cheated you out of, say, 8 hours pay, and then fired you, and you went to the DOL the end result would go something like this:
> 
> "I paid him minimum wage for the last 16 hours. That's not reflected on his paystub due to a clerical error." and you would lose your case against your ex-employer.



You are talking out your ass because you would never of had to deal with this seeing as you would have the union take care it.

Trust me the DOL has fangs.



> (Because I doubt whatever agreement exists between you and your boss is actually in writing.)


Again talking about things you know nothing about, all the employees are employees at will but we do have written and signed agreements covering our rate of pay and benefits.


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> No, wait, the Unions want their share, even though they didn't take the risk or do the work.... they'll just come in, take over my company, and run it into the ground after all the goodies are divided amongst themselves.


That's just silly. If the contractor does not succeed, then the employees will be out of work.

If the employees are out of work then the union has no dues receipts.

If the union has no receipts then they are out of business.

Who's drinking Kool-aid now?


----------



## william1978

oldman said:


> nah, rewire pushed buttons...this guy is just clueless...


 Thanks for clearing that up for me oldman.:thumbsup:


----------



## SGC622

my original comment on this thread was. why cant i have the option to work non union if there is a shortage of work. why do i have to either sit idlely by and wait for a job or salt. why cant i go out and find a job anywhere i hate how my license is useless right now. i mean the plumbers in my area at least have it that way they can work for non union they just have to inform their hall of who they are working for. i would like to do that. but facing a single path toward salting because i want to stay in the union. because i have in the back of my head when times are good they WILL be good. so i'd hate to ruin a good thing.


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> So your experiences are the only ones that matter,Huh?


 
No but apparently yours are.



> Originally Posted by *slickvic277*
> _It's not what I've herd it's what I lived,did .............Like I said,good open shop companies exist but are few and far between._


----------



## JayH

SGC622 said:


> my original comment on this thread was. why cant i have the option to work non union if there is a shortage of work. why do i have to either sit idlely by and wait for a job or salt. why cant i go out and find a job anywhere i hate how my license is useless right now. i mean the plumbers in my area at least have it that way they can work for non union they just have to inform their hall of who they are working for. i would like to do that. but facing a single path toward salting because i want to stay in the union. because i have in the back of my head when times are good they WILL be good. so i'd hate to ruin a good thing.


You need to discuss this with your BA. Nobody on this board can help you with that.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> That's just silly. If the contractor does not succeed, then the employees will be out of work.
> 
> If the employees are out of work then the union has no dues receipts.
> 
> If the union has no receipts then they are out of business.
> 
> Who's drinking Kool-aid now?


I think you have a Kool Aid smile. 

The company goes down, the owner is bankrupt but the 'work' still exists and union members complete the work for new company and continue paying dues.


----------



## SGC622

i pity those of you who have to demean someone because you cant make a valid point of your own, instead of saying something about someeone why dont you speak it intelligently? or can you?


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> my original comment on this thread was. why cant i have the option to work non union if there is a shortage of work. ...........


I have no problem with that.

In fact, I think it should be your choice to do so.

If the union doesn't like it, well, that's their problem. And if that's the agreement you have with them, then you've made your choice.

Of course, you could burn your bridges and go out and work in the trade you've learned. But for some strange reason, the union (with all it's 'hey, come work for us, it's great here!' rhetoric) seems to ingore your needs. They'd rather try to go get more people to join so they can be out of work, too.
















Hey! Here's an idea. Let's organize a union to force them to change their policy. After all, they have no rights, so changing them should be easy to do.:laughing:


----------



## LGLS

JayH said:


> He can then close his shop. Many do and re-open under a different name.


Under a different license too? Reopening under a different name has been tried before... if you think it's that simple you're only fooling yourself.


----------



## EBFD6

SGC622 said:


> my original comment on this thread was. why cant i have the option to work non union if there is a shortage of work. why do i have to either sit idlely by and wait for a job or salt. why cant i go out and find a job anywhere i hate how my license is useless right now. i mean the plumbers in my area at least have it that way they can work for non union they just have to inform their hall of who they are working for. i would like to do that. but facing a single path toward salting because i want to stay in the union. because i have in the back of my head when times are good they WILL be good. so i'd hate to ruin a good thing.


Because that's not how it works. Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statements. This is one of the biggest issues I have with the union, you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. You chose to join the union for the "benefits" in the good times, then you must also follow the rules and suffer the consequences during the hard times. If you don't like the union rules then quit and work open shop. FYI, you won't find a non-union job right now in MA anyway because no one is hiring.


----------



## oldman

i stopped reading 4 pages ago...but I changed my mind...the best way to save the IBEW....STOP LYING....

stop lying to the membership
stop lying to the contractors
stop lying to the open shop workers
and most importantly...

STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES....


----------



## Bob Badger

EBFD6 said:


> This is one of the biggest issues I have with the union, you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. You chose to join the union for the "benefits" in the good times, then you must also follow the rules and suffer the consequences during the hard times.



Very well said, and I agree with it 100%.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> I think you have a Kool Aid smile.
> 
> The company goes down, the owner is bankrupt but the 'work' still exists and union members complete the work for new company and continue paying dues.


I'll admit the green ($$) Kool-Aid has been good for me and I do wear the smile. The contractors I work for have even bigger smiles than I.

I know of no specific incidences in my area where an open shop was organized a subsequently put out of businees.

You're welcome to post specific examples from your area that I can research and condemn if the bankruptcy was a direct result of the organization of its' employees.


----------



## SGC622

JayH said:


> You need to discuss this with your BA. Nobody on this board can help you with that.


I have went to my BA and said something thats why monday after referral im going to get the list of companies i can apply to, to start salting. because he turned me down after stating that the plumbers do it. how can they tell me that?


----------



## LGLS

SGC622 said:


> yes of course i do i cant work a technological job and not be a nerd to some level hell yes i watch star trek.
> 
> are the two evils, money signs falling out his wallet and even more money signs falling out his wallet?
> 
> I am not well versed in EXACTLY how the end result of organization goes, i will say this though for two different scenarios
> 
> maybe someone well versed in the law can answer this for me.
> if when presented with the workers wanting to go union the employer says no.
> 
> A. is it mandatory he close his doors, if he says no
> or
> B. His workers continue on to the union without him and he hires more guys and continues working non union.
> ???


If the employees vote to go union the employer is compelled by law to bargain in good faith. That basically means whatever the collective bargaining agreement is in the jurisdiction becomes the contract. The only legal "out" is to no longer be an employer.


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> No but apparently yours are.



I didn't discredit your experiences,you discredited mine.


----------



## JayH

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Under a different license too? Reopening under a different name has been tried before... if you think it's that simple you're only fooling yourself.


 
It has been done in my area (Tucknot Construction) and it is oversimplified on this forum. I never said it was simple.


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> I didn't discredit your experiences,you discredited mine.


 
Not at all. Just pointing out the irony of it.


----------



## slickvic277

480sparky said:


> Not at all. Just pointing out the irony of it.


What irony?


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> I'll admit the green ($$) Kool-Aid has been good for me and I do wear the smile.


:laughing::thumbup:




> The contractors I work for have even bigger smiles than I.


I am sure some do, my boss owns a jet and a couple of large boats. While I have no issue at all with that it seems that many union members feel that makes him evil and I should try to redistribute that wealth to myself.

I just cannot be down with that, my boss started out the same way I did only he decided to go for it and he apparently had the skill and luck to make it work. Good for him. Me I am not a gambler so I took the easier less risky road of a hourly wage. My choice.




> I know of no specific incidences in my area where an open shop was organized a subsequently put out of businees.
> 
> You're welcome to post specific examples from your area that I can research and condemn if the bankruptcy was a direct result of the organization of its' employees.


I do not have one at my fingertips.:no:


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> What irony?


 
I'd expain, but you probably wouldn't understand it.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No it is not owned by the union but it has to follow the unions demands and if the union demands put the company out of business the union loses nothing and moves on to the next victim ... err .. company.
> 
> Kind of like a parasite.:whistling2:


No Bob, parasites live off the host - (kinda like contractors.) The only "demands" a union enforces is the CBA. Hundreds of contractors have no problem working under an agreement that both the contractors and the union members abide by. CBAs are not designed or written to put contractors out of business, so if following a CBA proves insurmountable to a contractor, it must be the contractor who is at fault...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No Bob, parasites live off the host - (kinda like contractors.) The only "demands" a union enforces is the CBA. Hundreds of contractors have no problem working under an agreement that both the contractors and the union members abide by. CBAs are not designed or written to put contractors out of business, so if following a CBA proves insurmountable to a contractor, it must be the contractor who is at fault...


The 'union' itself lives solely off the back of it's members, don't insult us and say otherwise.


----------



## 10492

JayH said:


> You're welcome to post specific examples from your area that I can research and condemn if the bankruptcy was a direct result of the organization of its' employees.


 
http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_drzsmv

Try this one.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If the employees vote to go union the employer is compelled by law to bargain in good faith. That basically means whatever the collective bargaining agreement is in the jurisdiction becomes the contract. The only legal "out" is to no longer be an employer.



This is exactly what happened to the contractor that I organized with,He disappear,stopped going to the contract negotiations and skipped town.He spent all his money on some big shot union buster lawyer and went broke.

But the irony of the whole thing is he resurfaced up in long Island was approached by local 25 and became a signatory contractor there.

So all his anti union banter and money was a waste,could of stayed in Philly and continued his business here.

http://jeffelectric.com/index.html and the union website http://www.local25advantage.com/node/92


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> The 'union' itself lives solely off the back of it's members, don't insult us and say otherwise.



The union is the members.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> I do not have one at my fingertips.:no:


Hey, I just thought of one in my neighborhood!!

CalPers. 

Although that is not an organizing effort, that union is bankrupting California!

There is a union gone mad and drunk with the Red (-$$$$$$$$$$) Kool-Aid.


----------



## JayH

Dnkldorf said:


> http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_drzsmv
> 
> Try this one.


I don't get it. It says Jerry Davis Electric is in business.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> The union is the members.



:lol::lol:

Now that is the funnest thing I have read today, nice sound bite.

Below is the Local 103 building










Who pays for the upkeep of that building?

Are all the employees in there electricians?

Who pays their salaries?


----------



## 10492

I'vs heard through the grapevine, the Unions even had the inspectors in their pocket, yet another strong arm tactic to put you under.

I think Jerry is still around, but he lost damn near everything, so I hear.

Do the research, I'd really like to know what happened, but be honest with no Union bias.


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> Yup the B.S. runs on both sides,but the truth of the merit shop treating employees like sh*t happens a lot,the typical model is one or two well paid guy's standing around and bossing around a bunch of $12 per hour "kids".Now god forbid that kid bust his azz and asks for a raise he has to go and kiss some jerk-off's rear for a measley dollar an hour raise.
> 
> Then he get's his raise but after working 70 hours a week year round,has the contractor tell the guy's that things are bad and he can't pay for the health insurance anymore,except the one or two guy's who are the know it all bosses.(this is exactly what happened to me)
> 
> That's the typical merit shop model,maybe not yours but that would place you in the minority.
> 
> Right before I organized the contractor offered me and my wife H.C. under one condition,don't tell the other guy's because I been telling them for years that were getting health care but I'm not getting it for them.
> 
> thanks,but no thanks.I had know desire to become THAT guy....


Slic, that model is very prevalant in the "Merit Shop" world, more than you know. Every one of them will deny it - that's part of their rouse.

If you've salted you've undoubtedly heard countless stories and they all follow the same pattern: They're hired and promised the world, raises, benefits, paid vacations, and most if not all never comes to pass. They're told never to discuss their wages with anyone - it's a private matter between the shop and the employee. They do not want their employees comparing paystubs, only to find the "Junior Mechanic" is getting 20 bucks an hour but his helper is getting 22.

They're put to work on PW jobs but told PW doesn't apply to them because they're not union. And they believe it because there's nobody there with the truth to inform them, hence the utter distain you see here for union members, salts and organizing.

Remember, much of the discussion on this thread really has nothing to do with unions, unionism or salting, fairness or democracy or what the law says - this is all about money, period. If union members sat down and had to negotiate their own wages with their bosses this wouldn't even be an issue. Everybody would be union and nobody would care one way or the other. United we bargain, divided we beg, right?


----------



## JayH

Dnkldorf said:


> I'vs heard through the grapevine.....


I've heard throught he Grapvine the world will end in 2012.

Doesn't mean I believe it.


----------



## 10492

JayH said:


> I don't get it. It says Jerry Davis Electric is in business.


I'm not sure, I heard he went under.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> Now that is the funnest thing I have read today, nice sound bite.
> 
> Below is the Local 103 building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who pays for the upkeep of that building?
> 
> Are all the employees in there electricians?
> 
> Who pays their salaries?


that is the school get a picture alittle to the left and thats the hall, they pay for it partially with the solar panels on both the jatc roof and the hall roof and the wind turbine. they also make money with the sign near the highway that advertises for different companies/ political officials


----------



## 10492

JayH said:


> I've heard throught he Grapvine the world will end in 2012.
> 
> Doesn't mean I believe it.


Agreed, hense the grapevine.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> I'vs heard through the grapevine, the Unions even had the inspectors in their pocket, yet another strong arm tactic to put you under.
> 
> I think Jerry is still around, but he lost damn near everything, so I hear.
> 
> Do the research, I'd really like to know what happened, but be honest with no Union bias.



Small world,you know jerry huh?I'm not surprised,He's one of the biggest scum bags in the business,he's got checks that bounced so high that there still floating in outerspace as we speak.

Do you know Jeff Weinstein also?.


----------



## JayH

Our hall and our training center are completely paid for. And we are very proud of that.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> Now that is the funnest thing I have read today, nice sound bite.
> 
> Below is the Local 103 building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who pays for the upkeep of that building?
> 
> Are all the employees in there electricians?
> 
> Who pays their salaries?


The members do,No but they all work for the members,the members pay for the services they provide.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Small world,you know jerry huh?I'm not surprised,He's one of the biggest scum bags in the business,


 
I am sure he says the same about you.

And I'd agree with Jerry.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> I am sure he says the same about you.
> 
> And I'd agree with Jerry.


Whatever,I never bounced a check,skipped out on bills,or cheated my taxes.He signed the agreement pocketed as much cash as he could,skipped town and then didn't pay any of his obligations,he's a P.O.S.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Sorry, I believe peoples pay should be based on busting azz and not predetermined by a contractual agreement. Life is a competition.


Sorry, nobody should have to bust their azz to get their hourly compensation. And no one person should be the end-all be-all decider on whether or not a person is worthy or deserving, or how much. Especially not the person who stands to profit more by making an unfair decision, the more unfair, the more s/he keeps for themselves.

This isn't just my opinion, it's the law.

That said, when a contractural price per hour is determined by a group of union reps AND employers, the books are open, and the reps have a ton of information to glean over as to where the rate should be pegged. Far better than one person deciding on what so-and-so is worth based on the boss's own goals and circumstances. 

Like it or not, it doesn't matter how good a worker one is, they may or may not be any good at negotiating their salary. Why should they suffer for that when there is an alternative? Do Hollywood actors hash out their own contracts with the studios? MLB players? NLB players? Heck no they have agents! Is Hollywood or MLB going out of business? Nope. Are there studios and leagues that cannot afford them? Sure - so they hire the "B" actors and players.


----------



## Shado

Wow...entertaining.....

Alot of this has been stated many times in other threads....but nothing really ever comes from it. That's cool....

Here is my thoughts as stated before elswhere....

1 - Profits for owners pockets thing.....union guys seem to think that non union bids at the exact same rate as union......then get the jobs at union scale and pokes it all in his pocket.....how dumb is that? 
More kool aid served.....

2 - Topics concerning slave labor.....that is history.....many decades ago it was the norm and happened. Yes there are still sweat shops....but nowhere have I ever been able to locate an electrical sweat shop in the USA. They simply DO NOT EXIST!!! Union my think so...but have yet to positively produce any....and with current laws on the books...they will not revert to the old days...sorry to burst your bubbles..
More kool aid served....

3 - Joint ownership in a company.....nope....employees do not share the risk financially. When things are good...they reap their share...when things are bad....then what? Union employees do not care about the companies they work for...only what serves them personally. This in turn forces the public to pick up the tab.....think higher cost to the public who may not be abel to fund it. Example...the auto crap that just happened....GM can not sell what is not being bought. The company is not bringing in more money since they are not selling....yet the union pissed and moaned about their bargaing agreement for their wages and bene's in the contract. Were they willing to say ....oh crap...we aren't not selling anything right now because consumers don't have jobs and can't afford to buy what I am providing....so, lets cut back our cost and sell and still make some money until things improve then work back to where it was. Hell no....
More kool aid served.... 

4 - Unions were strong at one time...again...at one time when they were needed. Yes we still need them....but not like before. 

5 - If unions are so great....why do they need to advertise...be it salting, educating, persuadeing, etc.....those who get into this trade do not have blinders on their whole career.....and not have knowledge of the union availability to themselves.
More kool aid served....

6 - If they are THE way to go.....why has their market share become almost a thing of the past? 

7 - Why does non union control the market share, and continue to gain more of it every year? 


There are more thoughts...but this is a good start...


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Whatever,I never bounced a check,skipped out on bills,or cheated my taxes.He signed the agreement pocketed as much cash as he could,skipped town and then didn't pay any of his obligations,he's a P.O.S.


Liar, you admitted doing sidework. You cheat on taxes, you don't pay bills, and your a fraud. Who gives you the right to to call him a POS.

A POS calling someone else a POS has very little credibility.


----------



## BuzzKill

So we're coming up on 500 posts!
Do any of the union/non union posters feel any closer to their opposite? Any feeling of kinship and understanding or is it still just a bitter distaste for the other?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Slic, that model is very prevalant in the "Merit Shop" world, more than you know. Every one of them will deny it - that's part of their rouse.


I am going to deny that any of that has happened to me.

I will not deny that looking at all the non-union contractors across the country you will find true stories of really bad employers. They are out there no doubt. Just like I can post plenty of bad news about unions from across the country. None of it proves anyone's point.



> They're told never to discuss their wages with anyone - it's a private matter between the shop and the employee.


That is true and that is true throughout polite society.

I do not walk up to people at a party and ask 'How much do you make?' 'What is your mortgage payment?' 'How much do you spend on food each week?' I consider the financial details of my life to be private.



> They do not want their employees comparing paystubs, only to find the "Junior Mechanic" is getting 20 bucks an hour but his helper is getting 22.


You are right they do not want that.

But if that helper is worth more than 'junior mechanic' they *should be* paid more.



> They're put to work on PW jobs but told PW doesn't apply to them because they're not union.


I am sure it happens, it also happens like this. Every time one of our guys gets on a prevailing wage job they get a detailed rate sheet showing how their wage was calculated. 




> And they believe it because there's nobody there with the truth to inform them,


I am sure it happens, but again I don't have the 'we need to hold everyone's hand' mentality. 





> hence the utter distain you see here for union members, salts and organizing.


The utter disdain I have is for liars and the salts I have met have all been liars.




> United we bargain, divided we beg, right?


United you extort, I have never had to beg.


----------



## 10492

BuzzKill said:


> So we're coming up on 500 posts!
> Do any of the union/non union posters feel any closer to their opposite? Any feeling of kinship and understanding or is it still just a bitter distaste for the other?


 
We are still trying to "educate" a couple of them yet.


It's tougher than we thought, the Union brainwashing has set in deep.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Our hall and our training center are completely paid for. And we are very proud of that.


Cool that is great, do you get free power and water?

How about those employees that work there?

My only point was LGLS was trying to say the union is not parasitic and I find that far from true.


----------



## SGC622

im torn because i was non union before being union so i know what its like for both. i just think there are too many people that are set in there ways you can make friends with some people but others just are here for the battle.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> im torn because i was non union before being union so i know what its like for both. i just think there are too many people that are set in there ways you can make friends with some people but others just are hear for the battle.


Answer this:

If you need a plumber, are you going to call a Union Plumber and pay his rates?

If you need a landscaper, are you going to call a Union Landscaper, and pay Union rates?

If you need a siding guy, are you going to call a Union shop and pay their rates, knowing how they work?

Or are you going to ask a friend to save money?

If you don't call a Union shop, you're a Union Hypocrite.

If you say you do, you would be lying to us.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Answer this:
> 
> If you need a plumber, are you going to call a Union Plumber and pay his rates?
> 
> If you need a landscaper, are you going to call a Union Landscaper, and pay Union rates?
> 
> If you need a siding guy, are you going to call a Union shop and pay their rates, knowing how they work?
> 
> Or are you going to ask a friend to save money?
> 
> If you don't call a Union shop, you're a Union Hypocrite.
> 
> If you say you do, you would be lying to us.


i can easily answer you on this, i am an electrician but a jack of all trades. i do most of my work that needs to be done myself, but for the rest i barter or do favors for my fellow union buddies. brotherhood extents past the job site.


----------



## SGC622

local 103 does something called market recovery, im not sure if everyone knows about it but, it allows companies to bid as low as non union companies and the union pays the difference so the contractor can still profit. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.the103advantage.com/getfile/bca76a56-904d-478f-8116-9d5af01293aa/Image3.aspx&imgrefurl=http://www.the103advantage.com/EmergingTechnologies/WirelessInitiative.aspx&usg=__aKxlVxxf7-cwX2-XlCzLf-j9wPY=&h=170&w=262&sz=21&hl=en&start=11&sig2=eA0Im-tpY-5t21u72FRrlA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=5lVUOZKidPNVPM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=112&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlocal%2B103%2Bibew%2Bboston%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=NTFvS8fqC8KF8Qb5k52DBg

scroll down to the left side where it says market recover and click on the link for the video


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> OK so now my choice is pay more money or go without, thanks you have done so much good. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> How about you look at page 9 of this
> 
> http://www.census.gov/mcd/exports/arp05.pdf
> 
> There are still many tens of thousands of American workers involved with exports.


I didn't say we export nothing Bob. I said trade _deficit._ You know, the difference between what we made selling to and what we lost by buying from abroad???


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which means what, of course nothing gets done without the employees but what does that have to do with the unions 'right' to take the business?
> 
> 
> No, no union that I know of has actually taken a businesses as in 'owning it'.
> 
> But the union does take away a business owners ability to be run as it's owner would like. To me that is a crime.
> 
> 
> 
> Well then it comes down to who has the greater right here - the freedom to yell FIRE in a crowded movie theatre, or the right for theatregoers to not be lied to by someone simply excersizing their so-called right to free speech?
> 
> There are plenty of shops in my union and each one is run as their owners see fit - however under the terms of the CBA you cannot "see fit" to decide that Journeyman A is worth X but Journeyman B is only worth Y... you do however have every right to lay Journeyman B off if you feel he's not worth the rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It hasn't been true for me. It isn't true for the 12,000 currently employed in my local. Joining doesn't = layoff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No they lie to, but again as a man it is my own responsibility to sort the BS and spin from the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah... at least you admit it... nonunion shops lie too. I feel it is my job as a man to support myself and my family, get 5 weeks paid a year, get unemployment and supplememtal unemployment funds when laid off, and be in a position where every promise and dollar and benefit negotiated for actually ends up in my pocket, and not put myself in a position where the boss's promises are backed by nothing but his word, which they're known so often to and so easily to renege on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No because that is up to them, yeah they could be a helper for 17 years if they do not step up and do the work. They do not get a free pass just for showing up each day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, a 17th year helper is only due to their own lack of self-improvement? Who determines their status?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, because we have clearly written and applied vacation policies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do all merit / nonunion shops? Does your written policy allow for you to take your vacations when YOU want to regardless of the company's ability or inability to give you the time off? Do you get a signed vacation card at the begining of the vacation period as proof of evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that happens every week so we just let them figure it out.
> 
> Actually I have never seen that happen at the electrical shops I have worked. I am sure it does happen. It had happened to me at a maintenance job and I handled that myself. I got my money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's happening all the time these days. And many never get their money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you tell them that the rules for their pension may be changed years from now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The CBA is renegotiated every 3 years. Apprentices are told what the current pension plan provides for as well as all of the other benefits. THey are told that what we have now may or may not be the same, better or worse with each renegotiation. Our pension has never missed a payment nor bounced a check. And there are 4 pensions we participate in, plus the 401k.
> 
> How many Merit Shops even offer a pension?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt and there are many people on this forum that have been screwed by the union so I fail to see your point.
> 
> Both merit shops and union shops can be good or bad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know few people who claim the union screwed them. I know a lot more screwed by merit shops.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> The 'union' itself lives solely off the back of it's members, don't insult us and say otherwise.


The union IS it's members. They live off themselves?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I didn't say we export nothing Bob. I said trade _deficit._ You know, the difference between what we made selling to and what we lost by buying from abroad???


Yes but only you decided to make it about the deficit when the conversation was about Americans being out of more manufacturing jobs if other countries hit us with higher tariffs.


I know, you are having a hard time handling someone that has enough intelligence to see through your highly practiced lines of BS so I will try to type slower so you can understand. :jester:


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Yes but only you decided to make it about the deficit when the conversation was about Americans being out of more manufacturing jobs if other countries hit us with higher tariffs.
> 
> 
> I know, you are having a hard time handling someone that has enough intelligence to see through your highly practiced lines of BS so I will try to type slower so you can understand. :jester:


if you have enough intelligence to see through his highly practiced lines then im certain you would have enough intelligence to realize that typing slower would only help you to understand the bs your typing.


----------



## JayH

Shado said:


> 1 - Profits for owners pockets thing.....union guys seem to think that non union bids at the exact same rate as union......then get the jobs at union scale and pokes it all in his pocket.....how dumb is that?
> More kool aid served.....
> 
> All of the projects that I have bid on the non-union sector bids competitively against the union sector.
> 
> 2 - Topics concerning slave labor.....that is history.....many decades ago it was the norm and happened. Yes there are still sweat shops....but nowhere have I ever been able to locate an electrical sweat shop in the USA. They simply DO NOT EXIST!!! Union my think so...but have yet to positively produce any....and with current laws on the books...they will not revert to the old days...sorry to burst your bubbles..
> More kool aid served....
> 
> http://www.ibew595.org/docs/NBC.pdf They do exist in this country.
> 
> 3 - Joint ownership in a company.....nope....employees do not share the risk financially. When things are good...they reap their share...when things are bad....then what? Union employees do not care about the companies they work for...only what serves them personally. This in turn forces the public to pick up the tab.....think higher cost to the public who may not be abel to fund it. Example...the auto crap that just happened....GM can not sell what is not being bought. The company is not bringing in more money since they are not selling....yet the union pissed and moaned about their bargaing agreement for their wages and bene's in the contract. Were they willing to say ....oh crap...we aren't not selling anything right now because consumers don't have jobs and can't afford to buy what I am providing....so, lets cut back our cost and sell and still make some money until things improve then work back to where it was. Hell no....
> More kool aid served....
> 
> Employee owned contracotrs Rosendin Electric and Cupertino electric surely do not agree with your assesment.
> 
> 4 - Unions were strong at one time...again...at one time when they were needed. Yes we still need them....but not like before.
> 
> Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.
> 
> 5 - If unions are so great....why do they need to advertise...be it salting, educating, persuadeing, etc.....those who get into this trade do not have blinders on their whole career.....and not have knowledge of the union availability to themselves.
> More kool aid served....
> 
> Hmm. Ford is great. Should they stop advertising their cars and trucks?
> 
> 6 - If they are THE way to go.....why has their market share become almost a thing of the past?
> 
> Good question with a multitude of answers I'd love to intelligently discuss with someone with an open mind.
> 
> 7 - Why does non union control the market share, and continue to gain more of it every year?
> 
> $$
> 
> 
> There are more thoughts...but this is a good start...


Someone explain to me how to multi quote please.


----------



## SGC622

JayH said:


> Someone explain to me how to multi quote please.


(quote) <-----this goes at the beginning of what you want to quote but replace the parenthesis with these [ ] 
(/quote) <-------- this goes on the end of what you type and do the same replace with those characters [ ]

and repeat for each part you want quoted


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Liar, you admitted doing sidework. You cheat on taxes, you don't pay bills, and your a fraud. Who gives you the right to to call him a POS.
> 
> A POS calling someone else a POS has very little credibility.



Me doing a side job for a family member and him not paying his payroll taxes,beni's,mens pay checks,debt to supply houses are two completely different things.

I personally have never worked for him but have friends that did,not one of them had a single good word to say about him,he still owes money for men's health&well fair.And he bounced paychecks.

He is in violation of the CONTRACT that HE signed and agreed to,he is a P.O.S.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Yes but only you decided to make it about the deficit when the conversation was about Americans being out of more manufacturing jobs if other countries hit us with higher tariffs.


Other countries hit US with higher tariffs? We are the larger consumer, you are the one who suggested any import tariff would be met with export tariffs. Why sidetrack the issue? 

The Walmart economic model cannot be supported indefinately.


----------



## JayH

LGLS Our local is allowed to pay their inside wireman anything they want above the CBA.

If they have a Foreman that they feel is worth more than the negotiated rate, they can pay him what they believe he is worth.

Plenty of Foreman and GF's in our local make above the negotiated rate (in good times.)


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bob Badger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LawnGuyLandSparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well then it comes down to who has the greater right here - the freedom to yell FIRE in a crowded movie theatre, or the right for theatregoers to not be lied to by someone simply excersizing their so-called right to free speech?
> 
> 
> 
> Have no idea what you are trying to say above. :001_huh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of shops in my union and each one is run as their owners see fit - *however under the terms of the CBA you cannot "see fit" to decide that Journeyman A is worth X but Journeyman B is only worth Y... *you do however have every right to lay Journeyman B off if you feel he's not worth the rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If a company has signed an agreement stating the above they should be held to it. I just do not agree they should every have agreed to such nonsense from the get go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It hasn't been true for me. It isn't true for the 12,000 currently employed in my local. Joining doesn't = layoff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No one is on the bench right now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah... at least you admit it... nonunion shops lie too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never have I denied it, people lie, that is a fact of life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel it is my job as a man to support myself and my family, get 5 weeks paid a year, get unemployment and supplememtal unemployment funds when laid off,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, you feel seem to feel everyone entitled to all of that as a birth right without having to prove themselves. I don't know why you feel that way. Probably poor up bringing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and be in a position where every promise and dollar and benefit negotiated for actually ends up in my pocket, and not put myself in a position where the boss's promises are backed by nothing but his word, which they're known so often to and so easily to renege on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I worked for a boss that was reneging on his commitments I would take it upon myself to do something about it. I would not expect to call a gang of thugs to straighten him out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, a 17th year helper is only due to their own lack of self-improvement? Who determines their status?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They do.
> 
> If this person does not take it upon themselves to attend the company paid, for state approved courses then they can stay a $17 per hr helper till they die. It is all up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do all merit / nonunion shops?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, every shop is different, some of us actually like the freedom this provides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does your written policy allow for you to take your vacations when YOU want to regardless of the company's ability or inability to give you the time off?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, we have to apply with three weeks notice for time off longer than 2 days. Applications can be turned down but if you get your name in early you will get the time you need.
> 
> If you need a personal day tomoorow that is also OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you get a signed vacation card at the begining of the vacation period as proof of evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Proof of what?
> 
> I go on vaction and my checks keep coming, or I can ask for my check before I leave and have it on the previos payday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many Merit Shops even offer a pension?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not one that I know of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know few people who claim the union screwed them. I know a lot more screwed by merit shops.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You, like the rest of us, hear and remember what we want to hear.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Me doing a side job for a family member and him not paying his payroll taxes,beni's,mens pay checks,debt to supply houses are two completely different things.


Actually, you doing side work and not paying taxes, Unemployement and workmans comp makes you a law breaking POS, that puts a strain on all legit working people everywhere. But it's OK for you to break the law, cause you say so. Again, you're a liar and a cheat.



slickvic277 said:


> I personally have never worked for him but have friends that did,not one of them had a single good word to say about him,he still owes money for men's health&well fair.And he bounced paychecks.
> 
> He is in violation of the CONTRACT that HE signed and agreed to,he is a P.O.S.


I know many who worked for him before the Union put him under. He was great employer for years, took really good care of his men, and they always got paid. What he did to the Union deadbeats he was forced to use......who cares? They probably deserved it in my mind.

You screw companies, they screw you.

Endless cycle until you change your thug attitude.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> if you have enough intelligence to see through his highly practiced lines then im certain you would have enough intelligence to realize that typing slower would only help you to understand the bs your typing.


:thumbup:

Nice. :laughing:


----------



## SGC622

JayH said:


> LGLS Our local is allowed to pay their inside wireman anything they want above the CBA.
> 
> If they have a Foreman that they feel is worth more than the negotiated rate, they can pay him what they believe he is worth.
> 
> Plenty of Foreman and GF's in our local make above the negotiated rate (in good times.)


yea i believe thats the same way in my local

The apprentices rate cannot vary in my local though, it is what it is.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Nice. :laughing:


thats right it should be appreciated i tried real hard at that comeback. ha


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I am a 'commie'.:laughing:
> 
> I am adamant about it because if I hung my ass in the wind to try to start up a businesses it would be entirly because I want to do things my way and not anyone elses way.


Not every business owner took a risk to go into business. Some shops are owned by huge corporations and nobody in the decision making process is taking any personal risk at all. If they're not taking a risk, is it fair to say that cannot balk at the prospect of being unionized? 




> Actully I am all about freedom, the bussiness owner has rights as well.


Question is, who has the greater right, the business owner(s) or the employee(s) when the decision to be represented by a union or not is the employee's?



> I am not an owner so no one has to deal with me. I am an hourly employee.
> 
> Now that said if I was an owner the freedom an employee has is tremendous, they can choose not to work for me.


But an employee has many rights - the right to a safe workplace, the right to breaks and a lunch period, the right to safety equipment and PPE,. the right to be free from harassment, do you advocate that an employer, because of taking such a great "risk" has the right to eliminate those rights as he sees fit as well?


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> Nope, it sure doesn't. If you manage your company poorly, you lose money instead of making any, and go out of business. If you do well, you make a profit. But the ones taking the risk are the ones entitiled to any profit.


Nobody's denying that right - but that profit is only what's left after the expenses are met and the obligations fulfilled. 


> No, wait, the Unions want their share, even though they didn't take the risk or do the work... they'll just come in, take over my company, and run it into the ground after all the goodies are divided amongst themselves.


That's funny! You seem to think a union is a building filled with people wearing cheap suits.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Question is, who has the greater right, the business owner(s) or the employee(s) when the decision to be represented by a union or not is the employee's?


Without business owners, there are no employees.

The business owner has the right to do whatever he wants, the employee has the right to seek employment elsewhere if he doesn't like the terms or conditions.



What part of that is so hard to understand?


----------



## LGLS

JayH said:


> LGLS Our local is allowed to pay their inside wireman anything they want above the CBA.
> 
> If they have a Foreman that they feel is worth more than the negotiated rate, they can pay him what they believe he is worth.
> 
> Plenty of Foreman and GF's in our local make above the negotiated rate (in good times.)


Jay you're preaching to the chior. Yes the CBA sets the minimum wage rates, H&W, working rules, etc...


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> Without business owners, there are no employees.
> 
> The business owner has the right to do whatever he wants, the employee has the right to seek employment elsewhere if he doesn't like the terms or conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> What part of that is so hard to understand?


what if every employer had crappy terms and conditions? what then? we need to make a stand somewhere to set the standard thats acceptable for us.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Actually, you doing side work and not paying taxes, Unemployement and workmans comp makes you a law breaking POS, that puts a strain on all legit working people everywhere. But it's OK for you to break the law, cause you say so. Again, you're a liar and a cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> I know many who worked for him before the Union put him under. He was great employer for years, took really good care of his men, and they always got paid. What he did to the Union deadbeats he was forced to use......who cares? They probably deserved it in my mind.
> 
> You screw companies, they screw you.
> 
> Endless cycle until you change your thug attitude.


The guy's I know were there before the union was.I've done maybe 5 side jobs in the last 4 years,everyone of them was for a friend or family member(mostly my brother),So if that makes me a cheat then so be it,But you also admitted to doing side work once upon a time,so your a cheat also.I pay all my own bills,property taxes,mortgage,and debts If I hire someone to do work for me they get paid.

That's the difference between the good guy's and your buddy Jerry,people worked for him and they didn't get paid,If he was such a great guy to work for then why did he lose the election when his men decided to vote for a union?

So next time you fudge on your income to avoid some business tax or offer your guy's cash for week ends,remember your the one calling people liars and cheats.


----------



## 10492

SGC622 said:


> what if every employer had crappy terms and conditions? what then? we need to make a stand somewhere to set the standard thats acceptable for us.


 
What if every employer in the solar system had crappy working conditions?

What is with the strawman arguments?

Are you taught this by you're Union people?


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Without business owners, there are no employees.
> 
> The business owner has the right to do whatever he wants, the employee has the right to seek employment elsewhere if he doesn't like the terms or conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> What part of that is so hard to understand?


With out labor were is the business owner,its an equal relationship.
And no,the business owner does not have the RIGHT to do what ever he wants,again

http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx

And the labor does have a right to change terms and conditions.

What part do you not understand? There are laws protecting the rights of both labor and there employers but you would prefer a world were there are slave and slave masters.
You accuse people of talking out there ass yet you are the one talking sh*t.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not every business owner took a risk to go into business. Some shops are owned by huge corporations and nobody in the decision making process is taking any personal risk at all. If they're not taking a risk, is it fair to say that cannot balk at the prospect of being unionized?


You are right some are, so in your mind all should be treated as a faceless entity?




> Question is, who has the greater right, the business owner(s) or the employee(s) when the decision to be represented by a union or not is the employee's?


IMO the owner of the business should have the right not to have the union invade. Those employees have the right to work for someone else.

If the union is all you guys say it is 'best trained' 'best safety training' 'most professional' 'on time on budget' etc. there will always be customers seeking ECs that have union employees.





> But an employee has many rights - the right to a safe workplace, the right to breaks and a lunch period, the right to safety equipment and PPE,. the right to be free from harassment, do you advocate that an employer, because of taking such a great "risk" has the right to eliminate those rights as he sees fit as well?


No one has said that the laws should disappear, they are in place and protect the employees with or without the union.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Actually, you doing side work and not paying taxes, Unemployement and workmans comp makes you a law breaking POS, that puts a strain on all legit working people everywhere. But it's OK for you to break the law, cause you say so. Again, you're a liar and a cheat.


I doubt he doesn't pay taxes - he's an employee the taxes come right out of his paycheck automatically. As for any cash he's earned doing sidework, I'm willing to bet his tax obligation for an entire year (if he declared that income) doesn't hold a candle to what any business owner illegally writes off as a business expense in one month.



> I know many who worked for him before the Union put him under.


From what I'm hearing he put himself under by handing all his money over to a lawyer. Bad business decision. But then again it was his idea to risk it and his idea to hire an anti-labor attorney, so it IS all his fault right? Just like if he prevailed he gets all the glory too, right?



> He was great employer for years, took really good care of his men, and they always got paid.


Then why did they vote for the union?


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> I pay all my own bills,property taxes,mortgage,and debts If I hire someone to do work for me they get paid.


Yeah, you need Union protection. Stay with them. It is the best you'll ever accomplish in life. 

You are the reason Unions are still needed in this country. Some folks are truely un-employable. You should be their poster child.


----------



## SGC622

Dnkldorf said:


> What if every employer in the solar system had crappy working conditions?
> 
> What is with the strawman arguments?
> 
> Are you taught this by you're Union people?


no i can think on my own thank you very much, basically i was saying that at some point something needs to be done, an employer cant run his company in a way that takes advantage of his employees.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> With out labor were is the business owner,


A non-union contractor has to provide enough pay and bennies to actract employees or they will not have a bussinnes




> its an equal relationship.


No it is not equal relationship, any electrician can be replaced in a heart beat. Lifes a bitch.

We should have gone to collage and ran a business if we want the profits from a business.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Without business owners, there are no employees.


Without employees there are no contractors. 



> The business owner has the right to do whatever he wants,


Wrong.



> the employee has the right to seek employment elsewhere if he doesn't like the terms or conditions.


That's one option, but the employee has other rights as well.



> What part of that is so hard to understand?


I might ask you the same thing.


----------



## 480sparky

JayH said:


> Someone explain to me how to multi quote please.


 
when you quote, there's two sets of parenthesis. One at the begenning, with the quoted name and a link to the quote. It looks like {quote=loosenoodle;402903}, but with a [ and ] at the beginning and end.

At the end, there will be a {/quote}

Copy the {quote=loosenoodle;402903}, and insert it where you want a new quote to start, and the {/quote} where you want it to end.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I might ask you the same thing.


 
Grow some balls and start your own business.

You'll never ask these questions again.


----------



## Bob Badger

Dnkldorf said:


> Grow some balls and start your own business.


What and give up his free ride?

I don't see that happening. :no:


LGLS remind me again, how many hours does a NYC electrician have to work in order to get 8 hrs pay?

Is it 7?


----------



## SGC622

For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.

What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Yeah, you need Union protection. Stay with them. It is the best you'll ever accomplish in life.
> 
> You are the reason Unions are still needed in this country. Some folks are truely un-employable. You should be their poster child.



Actually you with your mind set is the reason people need unions in this country more then ever.You feel that since YOU decided to go in business you should be able to dictate the wages,laws,and conditions of the work environment.
When people with your mind set had all the control there were no child labor laws,no minimum wages,no overtime,7 day work weeks and almost zero saftey regulations.
Your greed and desire to control those around you knows no bounds,if these laws all went away you would be the first inline to capitalize and profit off it.

Again you feel the law and rights of others should not apply because YOU went into business,I got news for ya,Those laws and rights are a part of being in business if you don't like it you should try doing something else.As long as theres employers who think like you,unions will be needed.


----------



## JayH

Dnkldorf said:


> Grow some balls and start your own business.
> 
> You'll never ask these questions again.


Does this mean _*you*_ own _*your*_ own business?

And if so, what is the name of your business?


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> What and give up his free ride?


 
What??

You don't own your own business. Does that mean you have a free ride?

Just sayin'.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> What and give up his free ride?
> 
> I don't see that happening. :no:
> 
> 
> LGLS remind me again, how many hours does a NYC electrician have to work in order to get 8 hrs pay?
> 
> Is it 7?


even though you were being sarcastic i'll answer
if its the same for him as for me then you work 7 1/2 hours a 15 in the morning and a 15 in the afternoon that the company pays for. but rules are you have to stay on the job for break, lunch is the only time you can do whatever you want because you technically clock out for that


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


I would be gone, it is not for me. I have had opportunities to get in the union I have turned them down.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> even though you were being sarcastic i'll answer


I was not.




> if its the same for him as for me


It's not.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> You are right some are, so in your mind all should be treated as a faceless entity?


Hey Bob - this is BUSINESS remember? Whether owned by MA & Pa Kettle or by KBR, a business is operating in a business enviroment. Treating one different from another is tantamount to discrimination. 



> IMO the owner of the business should have the right not to have the union invade. Those employees have the right to work for someone else.


Those employees have many rights. What part of that is so difficult for you to grasp? Sure, I could like it or lump it, but I have other options, just as an employer has other options. 

Generally, an employer will make the decisions he feels are overall the best decisions he could make - why shouldn't the employees also have a best choice option other than to walk?



> If the union is all you guys say it is 'best trained' 'best safety training' 'most professional' 'on time on budget' etc. there will always be customers seeking ECs that have union employees.


Likewise, there will always be those businessmen and women whose business model is to Wal-Mart the industry - I'll pay less, I'll work the men harder, and therefore I'll be able to bid lower and get all the work and the profit for ME. Notwithstanding that the process relies on the workers all getting less for their labor, the union is in place to see that conditions for the worker do not become worse, and, if possible get better. This is the union's mission. So the unions sets a standard, the object is to get everyone to live up to the same (or better) standards. 



> No one has said that the laws should disappear, they are in place and protect the employees with or without the union.


You still haven't answered the question...

Why should an employer have the right to deny any worker their right to representation? 

Why does Mr. Joe of Joe Shmo Electric not want to sit down with Mr. Professional Business Agent to negotiate John Q Journeyman's wage and benefit package, and instead insist that John Q. Journeyman and he work it out alone?


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> I was not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not.


in all seriousness how do you know?


----------



## JayH

SGC622 said:


> For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.
> 
> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


Well if the reverse were in place, i.e. an employer deciding not to resign an agreement I would probably quit. But I doubt I'll ever be faced with that prospect.


----------



## slickvic277

SGC622 said:


> For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.
> 
> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?



Are you kidding me?When we had our election(to go union)the contractor's representative(each gets a rep at the election)Who was the biggest non union supporter and was bought a truck buy the contractor,actually voted yes,you should have seen the look on the contractors face,he took the truck back and left him there,we gave him a ride home.:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> What??
> 
> You don't own your own business. Does that mean you have a free ride?
> 
> Just sayin'.


Say away, we all are. :thumbsup:

From his own posts it seems LGLS has quite a sweet deal for little work. Others around him make a certain wage without proving themselves. To me that is essentially a free ride.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> A non-union contractor has to provide enough pay and bennies to actract employees or they will not have a bussinnes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not equal relationship, any electrician can be replaced in a heart beat. Lifes a bitch.


And any contractor can go out of business tomorrow - will not be missed, and will be replaced in a heartbeat too.



> We should have gone to collage and ran a business if we want the profits from a business.


Or gone to a union!


----------



## 480sparky

SGC622 said:


> For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.
> 
> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


Why should the employees have a choice?


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> in all seriousness how do you know?


This is not my first day at the rodeo.

I do not know if it's an official policy or just the accepted practice but I seem to recall them getting 8 hs for 7hr and they still get breaks.


----------



## Shado

SGC622 said:


> For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.
> 
> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


Nope.....as it is America...I am supposed to have the freedom of choice.

But as I am a business owner....I don't have this same freedom of choice offered to other Americans....????


----------



## JayH

480sparky said:


> Why should the employees have a choice?


 
Huh??


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Say away, we all are. :thumbsup:
> 
> From his own posts it seems LGLS has quite a sweet deal for little work. Others around him make a certain wage without proving themselves. To me that is essentially a free ride.



I don't know why you think union guy's don't have t prove themselves,you can look at the w-2's at the end of the year and see who is worth there salt.
I worked with just as many stiffs when I was non-union as I have union,yes stiffs exist in both and there's lots of open shop employers carrying loads as we speak.
Why do you act like every open shop guy is the hardest working guy in the world,it's not true.


----------



## 480sparky

JayH said:


> Huh??


Read Shado's post. He said it better than I could.


----------



## Bob Badger

> Or gone to a union!


No, I have to much self respect for that. I like to know I earn what I earn because of myself and not because a contract says so. :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Grow some balls and start your own business.


Grow some balls and learn how to stand up for yourself no matter what position you're in. Grow some balls and learn you don't have to do as you're told. Grow some balls and stand up for and with your fellow man and tell the boss "no, THIS is the way it's gonna be..."


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Actually you with your mind set is the reason people need unions in this country more then ever.You feel that since YOU decided to go in business you should be able to dictate the wages,laws,and conditions of the work environment.
> When people with your mind set had all the control there were no child labor laws,no minimum wages,no overtime,7 day work weeks and almost zero saftey regulations.
> Your greed and desire to control those around you knows no bounds,if these laws all went away you would be the first inline to capitalize and profit off it.
> 
> Again you feel the law and rights of others should not apply because YOU went into business,I got news for ya,Those laws and rights are a part of being in business if you don't like it you should try doing something else.As long as theres employers who think like you,unions will be needed.


 
No, not at all. I agree that employees should have a clean, safe working conditions....it is comon sense, if you the employer are trying to retain the best workforce you can. 

While you believe that all workers are equal, and should be paid and treated equally, I don't. Some are slugs that need to have a shovel in their hand all day long, until they quit. The others get choice jobs.

Employers should have that right, to weed out the BS's and secure a future for the workers who actually care.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> LGLS remind me again, how many hours does a NYC electrician have to work in order to get 8 hrs pay?
> 
> Is it 7?


If you're working nights on a 3-shift jobsite.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> I don't know why you think union guy's don't have t prove themselves,


Is a union members pay usually based on their abilities and production or is it based the length of time he has been in?


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Grow some balls and learn how to stand up for yourself no matter what position you're in. Grow some balls and learn you don't have to do as you're told. Grow some balls and stand up for and with your fellow man and tell the boss "no, THIS is the way it's gonna be..."


Don't tell me about having balls.

I enlisted.

I think I have bigger balls than you'll ever have.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> Say away, we all are. :thumbsup:
> 
> From his own posts it seems LGLS has quite a sweet deal for little work. Others around him make a certain wage without proving themselves. To me that is essentially a free ride.


I haven't seen these (see my post count is still kinda low.)

LGLS are you a free rider? 

Are you the type of guy I would terminate after 4 hours?

Or can you install enough to keep me employed as a GF and my boss employed as a PM and his boss employed as a Group VP and his boss employed as a Group President and his boss employed as a managing partner and his boss employed as an Owner?


----------



## EBFD6

SGC622 said:


> For all the non union forum members here, entertain this thought for a second. spare me the nonsense and just answer the question as if it were going to happen please.
> 
> What if your employer made his choice to go union would you quit or would you go along with him?


I would quit.

I work for a great company, family owned, my boss's two sons also work in the office they are in their mid 30's and will be taking the reins in a few years, all 3 of them are good guys that take care of their employees. The company is not a huge company but not small either (approx. 60 field guys, 15 office personnel) and is a good work environment, all of the guys in the field work well together and I have never witnessed or heard of any serious personal issues on the job sites. Basically, everyone (office and field) show up everyday, do their job, and go home. People are reasonably happy and everyone makes a decent living. I have worked for 3 other electrical contractors in my career (11 years) and this one is by far the best I have experienced.

All that being said (It's all true, but does look a little corny reading it :laughing, I would definitely hit the road if this company were to go union. I will never join a union! I wouldn't be able to stomach the internal politics and union propaganda BS. I don't like the "everyone is equal" crap. I don't want to come to work and bust my a$$ to make the same pay as some lazy slug who shows up and does nothing all day. I don't need some one else to fight my battles for me. I am a man, not a child, I can negotiate my own pay and benefits and can talk to the boss to resolve any other issues I have. If I don't like my situation I will change it.

The bottom line is the union can not do anything for me that I can't do for myself, and I don't have to pay myself dues.


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> Are you kidding me?When we had our election(to go union)the contractor's representative(each gets a rep at the election)Who was the biggest non union supporter and was bought a truck buy the contractor,actually voted yes,you should have seen the look on the contractors face,he took the truck back and left him there,we gave him a ride home.:laughing:


I'd've paid good money to see that!


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Is a union members pay usually based on their abilities and production or is it based the length of time he has been in?


so you wouldnt take the pay you get in the union if you could? 
have you ever worked a government job? or a state job and made prevailing wage?the davis bacon act and the mini davis bacon act apply to our state bob. 
your technically getting union pay. but alot more because they take a percentage out to distribute to our bennies for us.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Grow some balls and learn how to stand up for yourself no matter what position you're in. Grow some balls and learn you don't have to do as you're told. Grow some balls and stand up for and with your fellow man and tell the boss "no, THIS is the way it's gonna be..."


:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If you're working nights on a 3-shift jobsite.


:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> Is a union members pay usually based on their abilities and production or is it based the length of time he has been in?


Length of service with regards to pay only applies to apprenticeship, and that's if they have the hours and graduate to the next level of apprenticeship.

Journeyman pay is what it is. 

Contractors have negotiated this wage with the Union representation to make it equitable to both parties.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> No, not at all. I agree that employees should have a clean, safe working conditions....it is comon sense, if you the employer are trying to retain the best workforce you can.
> 
> While you believe that all workers are equal, and should be paid and treated equally, I don't. Some are slugs that need to have a shovel in their hand all day long, until they quit. The others get choice jobs.
> 
> Employers should have that right, to weed out the BS's and secure a future for the workers who actually care.


That's fine and they can,I see it all the time if a guy stinks he gets let go and replaced.Union or not.


----------



## JayH

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If you're working nights on a 3-shift jobsite.


We have the same agreement, but only for third shift.

Second shift works 7 1/2 hours for 8.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Say away, we all are. :thumbsup:
> 
> From his own posts it seems LGLS has quite a sweet deal for little work. Others around him make a certain wage without proving themselves. To me that is essentially a free ride.


What are you saying, I don't work in the physical sense, I just walk around and make sure everything is going along smoothly. But that's my job. I'm not supposed to earn a living doing it? As for everyone around me, I assure you, production is the word of the day. (Or night, as it were.) Nobody has to go around "proving themselves" everyone holds an A-Journeyman's card and has already passed the "proving" stage. These days it's just install pipe, pull wire, install pipe, pull wire... what's to prove?


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> so you wouldnt take the pay you get in the union if you could?


I could have and I did not.

But my pay has been darn close to union wage anyway. I also get good beenies. 

I worked a PW wage job in RI and my pay would have gone down. (The RI Union has or had a 'residential rate' that was below my pay without my beennies)




> have you ever worked a government job? or a state job and made prevailing wage?


Yes.



> your technically getting union pay. but alot more because they take a percentage out to distribute to our bennies for us.


Not more, the same. The ECs are allowed to deduct the cost of my bennies from the PW.


----------



## EBFD6

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Grow some balls and learn how to stand up for yourself no matter what position you're in. Grow some balls and learn you don't have to do as you're told. Grow some balls and stand up for and with your fellow man and tell the boss "no, THIS is the way it's gonna be..."


What???

You don't "stand up for yourself", you hide behind the union and let them fight your battles for you, then you go to online forums and tell everyone how you put "the man" in his place. What a friggin' joke.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nobody has to go around "proving themselves" everyone holds an A-Journeyman's card and has already passed the "proving" stage.


We are just never going to agree, to me I have to prove my worth each day or someone working harder should be put in my place.

Yeah I have my license and I have my knowledge but I still have to produce or I am gone and that is how it should be.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Without employees there are no contractors.


What????????????? 

I am a contractor...I have no employees...... as there are alot of us here on this forum......where do you get this stuff??

Business 101.......

Open up and invest funds into a business....offer a product or service to the consumer for a price....by taking these risks you get profits.

Employee....101

Find business and work for them.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Is a union members pay usually based on their abilities and production or is it based the length of time he has been in?



It's based on the contract,and as apprentices they have to meet there obligations to reach that rate,it's not easy and it's not a free ride.If some one stinks they get laid off and replaced,if they violate the contract they get booted out of the local,we actually had a few this past year to get booted.

Lots and lots of jobs get done on time and with in budget on union job sites,I think you watch to much T.V and have visions of nobody doing anything and then BAM! all of a sudden the job magically gets done.It simply doesn't happen that way.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> This is not my first day at the rodeo.
> 
> I do not know if it's an official policy or just the accepted practice but I seem to recall them getting 8 hs for 7hr and they still get breaks.


This is only true on jobsites working 3 consecutive shifts. Although not contractural, past practice has resulted in the 3rd shift getting 8 for 7. This is often the case when a job is asked to work weekends - "Can you come in Saturday? You'll get 8 for 7 or 12 for 10 but this is an offer to sweeten the deal, not a requirement.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Journeyman pay is what it is.


What does that mean?

Is the most skilled paid the same as the least skilled?


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Not more, the same. The ECs are allowed to deduct the cost of my bennies from the PW.


but what if you had the choice of a van or health bennies from the open shop and you chose the bennies. would he still take it out if your prior agreement was already set in stone? I'm legitimately curious.


----------



## JayH

EBFD6 said:


> I don't like the "everyone is equal" crap. I don't want to come to work and bust my a$$ to make the same pay as some lazy slug who shows up and does nothing all day.


This is the thinking I don't understand, and I don't want to try and convince you to join the union.

But what makes you think I would keep a slug on the job?

What makes you think I don't watch the bottom line on my jobs everyday?

What makes you think any union contractor would allow these practices to continue? The market is far to competitive for that.

Some guys are more productive than others for sure. But as long as an installer can meet the bid labor rate, then he is going to make us money.

It is up to the Foreman and the GF to weed out or reassign those that cannot.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> but what if you had the choice of a van or health bennies from the open shop and you chose the bennies. would he still take it out if your prior agreement was already set in stone? I'm legitimately curious.


I am not really following you, I have no problem trying to answer.

As it happens I have had a company truck to take home and gas card for about 10 years now, when my PW is determined they have not calculated in the van as a bennie. They do calculate what my vacation and health bennies cost and that is reduced from whatever the PW is at that job.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd've paid good money to see that!



It was hysterical!As they were reading the votes out they were sitting right next to each other,when the final vote was read it was obvious which way he voted.I guess the brand spanking new truck wasn't enough to buy him out!


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Is the most skilled paid the same as the least skilled?


Yes he is. His duration of employment will not be equal though.


----------



## brian john

JayH said:


> This is the thinking I don't understand, and I don't want to try and convince you to join the union.
> 
> But what makes you think I would keep a slug on the job?
> 
> What makes you think I don't watch the bottom line on my jobs everyday?
> 
> What makes you think any union contractor would allow these practices to continue? The market is far to competitive for that.
> 
> Some guys are more productive than others for sure. But as long as an installer can meet the bid labor rate, then he is going to make us money.
> 
> It is up to the Foreman and the GF to weed out or reassign those that cannot.




That a 5th year man right out of apprenticeship makes the same as a 20 year man, that specializes in controls, ain't right.

NO ARGUMENT THERE


----------



## EBFD6

SGC622 said:


> but what if you had the choice of a van or health bennies from the open shop and you chose the bennies. would he still take it out if your prior agreement was already set in stone? I'm legitimately curious.


Why would someone have to choose between a van or health benefits?

The PW laws allow an employer to deduct the H/W from the hourly rate on PW jobs. On non PW jobs the agreement is what ever it is. In my case the company pays 60% of the health/dental costs for a family plan, 80% for the single plan. We have 3 different insurance packages to choose from (good, better, best) and costs increase to the company and employee respectively based on what plan you have.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Don't tell me about having balls.
> 
> I enlisted.


Really? Figures, the military has a bigger line of B.S. than any nonunion shop could hope to have!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:



> I think I have bigger balls than you'll ever have.


Possibly, but I'd rather compare paychecks. :thumbup:


----------



## SGC622

JayH said:


> This is the thinking I don't understand, and I don't want to try and convince you to join the union.
> 
> But what makes you think I would keep a slug on the job?
> 
> What makes you think I don't watch the bottom line on my jobs everyday?
> 
> What makes you think any union contractor would allow these practices to continue? The market is far to competitive for that.
> 
> Some guys are more productive than others for sure. But as long as an installer can meet the bid labor rate, then he is going to make us money.
> 
> It is up to the Foreman and the GF to weed out or reassign those that cannot.


When i worked non union we would go to the 99 for lunch eat at a customers house(given they invited us) and you know take a long time to get from service call to service call. and charge the last customer for the time lost. you know the journeyman i was with would basically fudge our time cards. we'd go home early. 
When i started working in the union i was guilty of the same mentality that everyone else has that union workers slack off, and i was like YEA!! this is going to be cake i'll make money and **** off yea, i was 19. I couldnt have been farther away from the truth, i'll tell you for the first 2 months of working union i basically went to bed after work till the next day when i had to work again, they werent over working me it was just more than i was used to, now i have become accustomed to it. and its fine i grew out of my mentality for the most part that i had back then. and realized when i got fired from my first shop in the union this isnt a place to have fun. they are serious about correcting their image and working hard.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> But what makes you think I would keep a slug on the job?


I have worked on many 'mixed jobs' and the unions always seemed to have more 'slugs' then the non-union shops. 




> What makes you think any union contractor would allow these practices to continue?


From seeing it first hand.

It may be that the unions here are not at all the same as the there. I always seem to notice at least a few guys on each union crew that are not actually expected to get a damn thing done.





> The market is far to competitive for that.


No doubt there and that may have changed some of it here as well, I have not been on mixed jobs that recently.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> That a 5th year man right out of apprenticeship makes the same as a 20 year man, that specializes in controls, ain't right.
> 
> NO ARGUMENT THERE



I agree,wouldnt be opposed to splittin' that last 15% raise in half.But then again most guy's that have been around and are specialist at something make above rate anyway.


----------



## slickvic277

The superbowl is on!!


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Yes he is.


That would drive me nuts. 


(Thanks for the honest answer though)


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> I have worked on many 'mixed jobs' and the unions always seemed to have more 'slugs' then the non-union shops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From seeing it first hand.
> 
> It may be that the unions here are not at all the same as the there. I always seem to notice at least a few guys on each union crew that are not actually expected to get a damn thing done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt there and that may have changed some of it here as well, I have not been on mixed jobs that recently.


who's jurisdiction are you in local 103's or i forget the number but the brockton local i think its 223 ?


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> I would quit.
> 
> I work for a great company, family owned, my boss's two sons also work in the office they are in their mid 30's and will be taking the reins in a few years, all 3 of them are good guys that take care of their employees.
> 
> *This is a good thing, but if it happens in a union shop it's branded "NEPOTISM" and everyone cries fowl and uses it as a reason to put unions down...*
> 
> The company is not a huge company but not small either (approx. 60 field guys, 15 office personnel) and is a good work environment, all of the guys in the field work well together and I have never witnessed or heard of any serious personal issues on the job sites. Basically, everyone (office and field) show up everyday, do their job, and go home. People are reasonably happy and everyone makes a decent living. I have worked for 3 other electrical contractors in my career (11 years) and this one is by far the best I have experienced.
> 
> All that being said (It's all true, but does look a little corny reading it :laughing, I would definitely hit the road if this company were to go union. I will never join a union! I wouldn't be able to stomach the internal politics and union propaganda BS. I don't like the "everyone is equal" crap. I don't want to come to work and bust my a$$ to make the same pay as some lazy slug who shows up and does nothing all day.
> 
> *Do you really think anybody shows up and does nothing all day and gets away with it? *
> 
> I don't need some one else to fight my battles for me. I am a man, not a child, I can negotiate my own pay and benefits and can talk to the boss to resolve any other issues I have. If I don't like my situation I will change it.
> 
> The bottom line is the union can not do anything for me that I can't do for myself, and I don't have to pay myself dues.


*If you find yourself in a situation that cannot be resolved, will you get another job at the same rate of pay, bennies, etc? Will your bennies be paid for 6 months while you wait for employers to get back to you? *


----------



## EBFD6

Bob Badger said:


> As it happens I have had a company truck to take home and gas card for about 10 years now, when my PW is determined they have not calculated in the van as a bennie. They do calculate what my vacation and health bennies cost and that is reduced from whatever the PW is at that job.


It is the same for us. I'm a service guy so I have a van, our construction foremen have pickups. These company vehicles are definitely a perk for those of us that have them, a little something extra for taking on the responsibility of running work (it's definitely nice not having to pay for gas), but the company does not consider them benefits, rather tools to complete the job just like every other company supplied tool.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> who's jurisdiction are you in local 103's or i forget the number but the brockton local i think its 223 ?


I have been on jobs with Bostons 103 and RIs 99.


----------



## 10492

Haing said all this, the IBEW sound like pussycats compared to the Teamsters.

They just suck, period.


----------



## SGC622

EBFD6 said:


> Why would someone have to choose between a van or health benefits?
> 
> The PW laws allow an employer to deduct the H/W from the hourly rate on PW jobs. On non PW jobs the agreement is what ever it is. In my case the company pays 60% of the health/dental costs for a family plan, 80% for the single plan. We have 3 different insurance packages to choose from (good, better, best) and costs increase to the company and employee respectively based on what plan you have.


the last non union shop i worked for was out of taunton and i remember they gave vans to apprentices and i actually had to work under a fellow apprentice which pissed me off, but at that company one particular guy was offered a van in replace of taking bennies and due to his particular situation at home with car issues, he took it, is that fair?


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> What???
> 
> You don't "stand up for yourself", you hide behind the union and let them fight your battles for you,


No, I am the union. I stand with my brothers and they stand with me. I have no battles to fight, when the employers see what they're up against they're generally not in the mood to pick fights.



> then you go to online forums and tell everyone how you put "the man" in his place. What a friggin' joke.


The only joke is you.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> but at that company one particular guy was offered a van in replace of taking bennies and due to his particular situation at home with car issues, he took it, is that fair?


IMO anything is fair that both parties agree to. 


FWIW guys ..... all of you .... it has been interesting and has stayed pretty civil. I am sure I learned at least a couple of things.


----------



## RyanB

JayH said:


> This is the thinking I don't understand, and I don't want to try and convince you to join the union.
> 
> But what makes you think I would keep a slug on the job?
> 
> What makes you think I don't watch the bottom line on my jobs everyday?
> 
> What makes you think any union contractor would allow these practices to continue? The market is far to competitive for that.
> 
> Some guys are more productive than others for sure. But as long as an installer can meet the bid labor rate, then he is going to make us money.
> 
> It is up to the Foreman and the GF to weed out or reassign those that cannot.


I've been working as a pre-app for a union contractor for the past six weeks. Every single apprentice and journeyman busts their ass every day. They also do their work in the most efficient way possible and minimize waste of cable, conduit, etc.

The journeyman on my first site (I've worked on three already) told me they bounced two pre-apps because they weren't picking up the pace.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, I am the union. I stand with my brothers and they stand with me. I have no battles to fight, when the employers see what they're up against they're generally not in the mood to pick fights.


Yeah that is what gang members say as well. 

I would not brag I need others to fight my battles.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> We are just never going to agree, to me I have to prove my worth each day or someone working harder should be put in my place.


Everyone produces. Some more than others. Sometimes people have a bad day. Sometimes people have a great day. But everyone is producing and we're all making money, including the boss. 



> Yeah I have my license and I have my knowledge but I still have to produce or I am gone and that is how it should be.


Are you under the impression that union members show up for work, get nothing done, and get paid and go home and repeat this process day in and day out?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Are you under the impression that union members show up for work, get nothing done, and get paid and go home and repeat this process day in and day out?


Nothing done?

No.

Incredibly little done for days and weeks on end .... yes.


----------



## EBFD6

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *This is a good thing, but if it happens in a union shop it's branded "NEPOTISM" and everyone cries fowl and uses it as a reason to put unions down...*


Nepotism? Of course it is! I work for a family owned company. My boss has two sons. Who would I expect to take over when my boss retires, his mailman?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Do you really think anybody shows up and does nothing all day and gets away with it?*


Yep! I do! I've seen it with my own eyes. You've said it yourself "work slowdown". Are you trying to say it doesn't happen? BS!



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *If you find yourself in a situation that cannot be resolved, will you get another job at the same rate of pay, bennies, etc? *


Yep, I've done it before and if necessary will do it again. I am not afraid to let my work and reputation speak for itself. I do not need the union to find me a job.


LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *Will your bennies be paid for 6 months while you wait for employers to get back to you? *


6 months? Why would I quit my job without having another one lined up first? So I could be a lazy POS and sit home sucking off the system? That's exactly the type of union mentality I abhor.


----------



## Shado

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah that is what gang members say as well.


I was thinking the same thing when I read that........:whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Shado said:


> What?????????????
> 
> I am a contractor...I have no employees...... as there are alot of us here on this forum......where do you get this stuff??
> 
> Business 101.......
> 
> Open up and invest funds into a business....offer a product or service to the consumer for a price....by taking these risks you get profits.
> 
> Employee....101
> 
> Find business and work for them.


Employee 201... if you're an employee get representation they're a lot better at it than you will ever be. Statistics don't lie. History doesn't lie. And large groups of like-minded people do a lot better against anything than one-on-one.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> Incredibly little done for days and weeks on end .... yes.


 
Again, the market is far too competitive for that.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah that is what gang members say as well.
> 
> I would not brag I need others to fight my battles.


i ask what you are not seeing our union officials work in the field, if they are not working in the field they have at one point and work hard to try and strike deal to win new construction jobs in the jurisdiction. and get our union contractors the work they need. everyone holds their card they are all members with the exception of the bank workers in the hall, and some secretaries. all our teachers at our schools are union members. i just dont get when you guys say you sit back and let the union deal with your problems. the members literally run the union. they are the union. i could run for local 103 president.i would still have my card and be a member. please explain what you mean when you say we need others to fight our battles. we are the others.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Is the most skilled paid the same as the least skilled?


They're all in posession of the same skillset, all went through the same apprenticeship classes and all have the same 5 & 1/2 years of apprentice time and all passed the same Journeyman's test to get the same base Journeyman's rate of pay. (Notwithstanding organized members.)


----------



## miller_elex

Honest to Gawd,

I wish I had enough money to live a life of leisure,

but I don't. So I've got to work a job. 

I am an electrician because plumbing sucks, but I am a union man because I want something at the end of the road when its all done.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> That would drive me nuts.
> 
> 
> (Thanks for the honest answer though)


Yeah, I know, but it us the CBA that the contractor's signed.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Again, the market is far too competitive for that.


Not all areas are like that, there are areas in and around Boston that all work of any noticeable size goes union, merit shops are locked out. That is not competitive and you gotta keep as many union brothers on the payroll as possible.


----------



## EBFD6

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, I am the union. I stand with my brothers and they stand with me. I have no battles to fight, when the employers see what they're up against they're generally not in the mood to pick fights.


That might be my problem. I don't have any brothers, just two sisters and neither of them are electricians. I do have a bunch of co-workers, most of them are pretty good guys and I enjoy working with them. However, it is none of my business what hourly wage, benefits, or perks they choose to negotiate with the boss. I'm sure some of them make more than I do, some less, that's their business.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The only joke is you.


Thanks, I'll consider the source!


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Yeah, I know, but it us the CBA that the contractor's signed.


If they signed it I am fully behind it being enforced, I just can't stand that non competitive policy.

It's like my daughters basketball game, they reset the score to 0 every qtr to be fair.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> That a 5th year man right out of apprenticeship makes the same as a 20 year man, that specializes in controls, ain't right.
> 
> NO ARGUMENT THERE


The controls specialist is going to probably earn more, and will gladly teach the 5th year right out of the apprenticeship man his particular skills, because when he turned out he was paid the same as a Journeyman 20 years his senior too.


----------



## EBFD6

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> They're all in posession of the same skillset, all went through the same apprenticeship classes and all have the same 5 & 1/2 years of apprentice time and all passed the same Journeyman's test to get the same base Journeyman's rate of pay. (Notwithstanding organized members.)


:lol:

I almost wet myself when I read that, Thanks!


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> please explain what you mean when you say we need others to fight our battles. we are the others.


If I have a problem at work I personally go to the boss and work it out. 

If you have a problem at work you go to the union and have them take care of it for you.

How can you not get that?????????:blink:


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Not all areas are like that, there are areas in and around Boston that all work of any noticeable size goes union, merit shops are locked out. That is not competitive and you gotta keep as many union brothers on the payroll as possible.



im mass the mini davis bacon/davis bacon act says that state and federal jobs must pay PW and union contractors get all the work. what does that say? im pretty sure they are thinking if i have to pay the same thing regardless if its union or non union, i'll go union.


----------



## Bob Badger

EBFD6 said:


> :lol:
> 
> I almost wet myself when I read that, Thanks!



Yeah all electricians are created equal, all have the same work ethic. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> It is the same for us. I'm a service guy so I have a van, our construction foremen have pickups. These company vehicles are definitely a perk for those of us that have them, a little something extra for taking on the responsibility of running work (it's definitely nice not having to pay for gas), but the company does not consider them benefits, rather tools to complete the job just like every other company supplied tool.


But they're benefits to the company as well. FIrst, the vehicles and gas are writeoffs, and if kept parked at a yard then you have to pay the men the time needed to pick them up, drive to the site and then drop them off. Plus a yard large enough to park them, plus depending on where the shop is located, security. 

This is why wether you get a vehicle or not, it cannot be deducted from the H&W package.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Haing said all this, the IBEW sound like pussycats compared to the Teamsters.
> 
> They just suck, period.


LOL! How so?


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> im mass the mini davis bacon/davis bacon act says that state and federal jobs must pay PW and union contractors get all the work.


Griffin is not union and they do a ton of State PW work.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> If I have a problem at work I personally go to the boss and work it out.
> 
> If you have a problem at work you go to the union and have them take care of it for you.
> 
> How can you not get that?????????:blink:


non union or not i would go to my foreman/owner first and i have even in the union. its when the issue doesnt get resolved that we can go to our union officials. Even so whats the big deal i'll go to them for help and if i chose to run for their seat when they give it up or come election time i'll be that guy that you say im whining too. what is there to get i dont believe your point is valid.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> non union or not i would go to my foreman/owner first and i have even in the union. its when the issue doesnt get resolved that we can go to our union officials. Even so whats the big deal i'll go to them for help and if i chose to run for their seat when they give it up or come election time i'll be that guy that you say im whining too. what is there to get i dont believe your point is valid.



It's not a big deal if that is what you want.

I don't want that, I want to make my own way.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah that is what gang members say as well.
> 
> I would not brag I need others to fight my battles.


And I would never be so bold, so foolish, so brazen that I could say when it comes down to me or any individual vs. the boss that one could win everytime. Because after all, without a CBA the boss is king. In unity there is strength - like I said there are no battles and nobody needs to hide behind anyone.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Griffin is not union and they do a ton of State PW work.


 yes but thats outside the 103 jurisdiction i only know 103 area i hear the other unions arent doing as well as us around us. there was even talks of us taking over the brockton local, anyway Griffin wouldnt dare come to the city and try to do a job.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Nothing done?
> 
> No.
> 
> Incredibly little done for days and weeks on end .... yes.


Well you'd be wrong then.


----------



## SGC622

Some guys here are taking this personally but i'll tell you i have been posting non stop since like 11 this morning (sad i know) but im learning so much and so glad i have been, this discussion we are having ends here when im done, if i saw you outside this forum i wouldnt hold it against you in the end its your views, its just unity would be nice or better yet a general understanding that we can all come to.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And I would never be so bold, so foolish, so brazen that I could say when it comes down to me or any individual vs. the boss that one could win everytime.


Where did I say I will always win? But I can always choose leave and work for someone else. I have never had a boss hold a gun to my head.




> Because after all, without a CBA the boss is king.


Yeah if I was a doormat. 




> In unity there is strength - like I said there are no battles and nobody needs to hide behind anyone.


And like I said before, that is exactly what a gang member would say. 

What is your opinion of the actions in the following video?


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> Nepotism? Of course it is! I work for a family owned company. My boss has two sons. Who would I expect to take over when my boss retires, his mailman?


The connotation was that everyone deserves an opportunity at every job available, and nobody gets favorable treatment based on who they're related to, or whose family they're in.



> Yep! I do! I've seen it with my own eyes. You've said it yourself "work slowdown". Are you trying to say it doesn't happen? BS!


Do you think work slowdowns are a common thing? Use your head. There's a time and a place for everything. 


> Yep, I've done it before and if necessary will do it again. I am not afraid to let my work and reputation speak for itself. I do not need the union to find me a job.
> 
> 
> 6 months? Why would I quit my job without having another one lined up first?


So you can't quit without a backup plan in place. You're stuck. If the backup plan doesn't meet your wage and benefit demands you don't have a plan, proving my point.



> So I could be a lazy POS and sit home sucking off the system? That's exactly the type of union mentality I abhor.


Sucking off what system? If there's 14,000 members but only 11,000 jobs, does that mean 3000 Journeymen are lazy POS's?


----------



## RyanB

Bob Badger said:


> Nothing done?
> 
> No.
> 
> Incredibly little done for days and weeks on end .... yes.


I wonder why these union contractors say the opposite is true?

http://www.construction-today.com/cms1/content/view/1718/31/



> Because Mott Electric covers so many different sectors of electrical contracting, the company needs skilled people who have experience in multiple areas. “From my perspective, one of the biggest challenges we face is maintaining a skilled work force,” Griffith says.
> 
> Fortunately for Mott Electric, its status as a union contractor has allowed it to hold onto most of its most experienced workers. Many of them, Griffith says, have been with the company for up to 30 years. “That only speaks well for the company,” he says. “It may sound corny, but it’s more like a family than anything else.”


----------



## LGLS

SGC622 said:


> i ask what you are not seeing our union officials work in the field, if they are not working in the field they have at one point and work hard to try and strike deal to win new construction jobs in the jurisdiction. and get our union contractors the work they need. everyone holds their card they are all members with the exception of the bank workers in the hall, and some secretaries. all our teachers at our schools are union members. i just dont get when you guys say you sit back and let the union deal with your problems. the members literally run the union. they are the union. i could run for local 103 president.i would still have my card and be a member. please explain what you mean when you say we need others to fight our battles. we are the others.


Understand the mentality - to them it's contractors, workers, and the "union" is a building filled with empty suits sucking thousands out of our paychecks while smoking expensive cigars and sipping Scotch on the member's dime, pilfering their pension funds and laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> Honest to Gawd,
> 
> I wish I had enough money to live a life of leisure,
> 
> but I don't. So I've got to work a job.
> 
> I am an electrician because plumbing sucks, but I am a union man because I want something at the end of the road when its all done.


After a Local 1 member taught me how to solder pipe I replumbed 2 entire houses and I gotta say, plumbing doesn't suck!


----------



## Bob Badger

RyanB said:


> I wonder why these union contractors say the opposite is true?
> 
> http://www.construction-today.com/cms1/content/view/1718/31/



Hmmm, I said I was going by my personal experience. I live in Massachusetts and you are trying to dispute my experience with story about Vancouver BC. Now if you have been following along I have said more than once that not all areas are the same.


----------



## SGC622

Bob Badger said:


> Where did I say I will always win? But I can always choose leave and work for someone else. I have never had a boss hold a gun to my head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah if I was a doormat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And like I said before, that is exactly what a gang member would say.
> 
> What is your opinion of the actions in the following video?


that wasnt 103 that was carpenters 33 its their business we probably would have been a little more professional but in the end if thats whats got to be done its whats got to be done at least i feel. i have never been involved in a picket.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Not all areas are like that, there are areas in and around Boston that all work of any noticeable size goes union, merit shops are locked out. That is not competitive and you gotta keep as many union brothers on the payroll as possible.


You mean the unions secure jobs for the members? Damned if they do and damned if they don't I guess.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Understand the mentality - to them it's contractors, workers, and the "union" is a building filled with empty suits sucking thousands out of our paychecks while smoking expensive cigars and sipping Scotch on the member's dime, pilfering their pension funds and laughing all the way to the bank.


Remove the exaggeration and what you say is true.

They are sucking thousands from your paychecks. Or do these suits all show up for free?


----------



## EBFD6

SGC622 said:


> yes but thats outside the 103 jurisdiction i only know 103 area i hear the other unions arent doing as well as us around us. there was even talks of us taking over the brockton local, *anyway Griffin wouldnt dare come to the city and try to do a job*.


That's because the union thugs would use their typical tactics of slashed tires, broken windshields, and physical threats to employees to make sure they stay out of the city. That's how local 103 operates. Yay IBEW!

I have experienced the same thing with local 96 in Worcester, it's criminal. They can't keep market share by any other means!


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> That might be my problem. I don't have any brothers, just two sisters and neither of them are electricians. I do have a bunch of co-workers, most of them are pretty good guys and I enjoy working with them. However, it is none of my business what hourly wage, benefits, or perks they choose to negotiate with the boss. I'm sure some of them make more than I do, some less, that's their business.


No man is an island. I say it definately IS your business when you are in the business of working for an hourly wage. How could you possibly know where you stand or how you rate if you do not know how your pay compares to others around you doing the same job?


> Thanks, I'll consider the source!


I'm honored.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You mean the unions secure jobs for the members?


What a spin:laughing:, you say secure and I say locked out.

Both are true depending on what side you are on.


----------



## SGC622

EBFD6 said:


> That's because the union thugs would use their typical tactics of slashed tires, broken windshields, and physical threats to employees to make sure they stay out of the city. That's how local 103 operates. Yay IBEW!
> 
> I have experienced the same thing with local 96 in Worcester, it's criminal. They can't keep market share by any other means!


103 in particular is more diplomatic than most from what i've seen, also stew on this, teamsters probably have one of the worst wraps for their actions, yet ups is union teamsters and they carry themselves properly, you are not seeing the same possibilities for ibew. why? there are companies that have guys similar to ups' employees. proper and respectable.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> that wasnt 103 that was carpenters 33


No chit. 

I never said they where Electricians I simply asked what LGLS thought of those tactics. 




> we probably would have been a little more professional but in the end if thats whats got to be done its whats got to be done


To me that is something that needs to saved for when peoples lives at at stake not something that should happen when a project goes non-union.


----------



## EBFD6

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The connotation was that everyone deserves an opportunity at every job available, and nobody gets favorable treatment based on who they're related to, or whose family they're in.


So are you saying that me, the owner's son, and the brand new first year apprentice should all have an even shot at inheriting the family business?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you think work slowdowns are a common thing? Use your head. There's a time and a place for everything.


There is never a time or a place for extortion!



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So you can't quit without a backup plan in place. You're stuck. If the backup plan doesn't meet your wage and benefit demands you don't have a plan, proving my point.


 What's the union's back-up plan, wait 3 years for the contract to get renegotiated? Even then there's no guarantee that your personal issue will be addressed or resolved in the new contract.

I wouldn't quit my job over a small issue. Usually you can sit down with the boss and come to an agreement. Even if his answer is no at least I can hear his reasons on a man to man basis. If it is something major that can't be worked out then I'll head on down the road.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sucking off what system? If there's 14,000 members but only 11,000 jobs, does that mean 3000 Journeymen are lazy POS's?


Are those 3000 journeymen sitting at home on their a$$ waiting for someone else to find them a job? Then yes, they are lazy POS's!


----------



## Shado

SGC622 said:


> Some guys here are taking this personally but i'll tell you i have been posting non stop since like 11 this morning (sad i know) but im learning so much and so glad i have been, this discussion we are having ends here when im done, if i saw you outside this forum i wouldnt hold it against you in the end its your views, its just unity would be nice or better yet a general understanding that we can all come to.


As far as taking stuff personally here...I think like others have said...it is because of their experiences. I think it has been proven here that there is alot of hearsay, misunderstanding, and facts on both sides of the coin. 

Nothing is perfect....the biggest issue is the fact that like the forefathers....they didn't like what they had overseas...left ...came here and started similar crap they wanted to leave behind. Wanted freedom of choice, religion, and to make a better life. 

America is freedom..............until you step on the toes of others.....be it their ideals, beliefs, choices, etc.....therein lies the biggest problem here.

We all can make a choice where we work, who we work for, etc....it only matters as to what works for us individuallly. 

Work where and for who you want.... just don't try and shove your choice down my throat or take over my business.

If you don't like my policies....leave, open your own shop, whatever....that is your choice.

Other than that...your fired!!!


----------



## EBFD6

SGC622 said:


> Some guys here are taking this personally but i'll tell you i have been posting non stop since like 11 this morning (sad i know) but im learning so much and so glad i have been, this discussion we are having ends here when im done, if i saw you outside this forum i wouldnt hold it against you in the end its your views, its just unity would be nice or better yet a general understanding that we can all come to.


I haven't seen anyone being overly sensitive yet, this issue is definitely a hot one on this site. The fact that this has remained civil for so long is unusual. 600+ posts and it hasn't been locked yet, very rare for a union/non-union discussion. Unfortunately this issue will never be resolved, ever! People on both sides of the issue already have their minds made up and no amount of discussion is going to change that. But, it's still fun to argue about it :thumbup:.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Where did I say I will always win? But I can always choose leave and work for someone else. I have never had a boss hold a gun to my head.


So you'd run from a fight?



> Yeah if I was a doormat.


You mean your boss doesn't have the final say on everything?



> And like I said before, that is exactly what a gang member would say.


You mean like the Marines? Army infiltry? Navy Seals? It's better to be a hired mercinary?



> What is your opinion of the actions in the following video?


I have none, don't know the circumstances.


----------



## SGC622

Shado said:


> Work where and for who you want.... just don't try and shove your choice down my throat or take over my business.
> 
> If you don't like my policies....leave, open your own shop, whatever....that is your choice.
> 
> Other than that...your fired!!!


the bargaining agreement was in place way before my decision was made up to be an electrician. I understand how you feel its your company you opened it up your arguement is that if i worked so hard for it why can these workers ruin it for me, quite frankly if i was in your position i would get pissed too. but the law is in place and you cant expect people to not take advantage of it. one reason i see why someone would want to get organized through a shop rather then going and signing up at the union hall, is that it is harder for them to sign up, why not get organized and get a free ride into the union. 

the way around your shop getting organized, from what i have seen is keep your shop off the radar, meaning keep it small, and silence the union possibility by promising your employees what they want and being fair to them, so they have no desire to become union or ever want to be union because they feel they have a bond with you.


----------



## SGC622

EBFD6 said:


> I haven't seen anyone being overly sensitive yet, this issue is definitely a hot one on this site. The fact that this has remained civil for so long is unusual. 600+ posts and it hasn't been locked yet, very rare for a union/non-union discussion. Unfortunately this issue will never be resolved, ever! People on both sides of the issue already have their minds made up and no amount of discussion is going to change that. But, it's still fun to argue about it :thumbup:.


lol i have to agree it has kept me entertained all day, but i would rather view it as discussion rather than arguing.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Remove the exaggeration and what you say is true.
> 
> They are sucking thousands from your paychecks. Or do these suits all show up for free?


$180.00 2 x a year, minus 80.40 2 x a year (I forget why) and 1% of my gross is thousand*s* a year? BTW that's all tax-deductable union dues so in reality, I don't pay any of it.

I can look online and see the compensation from salary to expenses to perks of EVERY paid union employee in my local. Nobody is making a fortune.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So you'd run from a fight?


Sometimes you say some silly crap.:laughing:



> You mean your boss doesn't have the final say on everything?


I mean I always have the choice to move on or acept the bosses terms. To me it is the bosses company it is up to him to decide who makes what. If he wants to offer minimum wage that should be his right. I doubt he would have a successful business but that is not the point.


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> So are you saying that me, the owner's son, and the brand new first year apprentice should all have an even shot at inheriting the family business?


Not inheriting a business, they're WORKING in the office that would be a job within the electrical industry. All jobs are open calls and free game - nobody should have an entitlement mentality, right? Work for it and earn it. 



> There is never a time or a place for extortion!


Call it what you will - the bosses use every tool available to them, don't blame me or other union members for using every tool available to us. As it happens our local has never had to resort to a work slowdown, but locally other locals have had to utilize it. 



> What's the union's back-up plan, wait 3 years for the contract to get renegotiated? Even then there's no guarantee that your personal issue will be addressed or resolved in the new contract.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't quit my job over a small issue. Usually you can sit down with the boss and come to an agreement. Even if his answer is no at least I can hear his reasons on a man to man basis. If it is something major that can't be worked out then I'll head on down the road.


So, you'll leave... and then what - wait to find a job while "sucking" off the system? 



> Are those 3000 journeymen sitting at home on their a$$ waiting for someone else to find them a job? Then yes, they are lazy POS's!


What else are they to do? Create jobs? The economy especially as relative to the construction sector is cyclical - has always been and will always be. Sometimes there's 14000 jobs and sometimes thare's 11,000 jobs.

No matter how hard everybody works and no matter how productive you are, nothing is going to stop the contractors from laying off 8 - 10% of their workforce every 10 years. They have no choice, it's in the cards. That's why there are systems in place so that when your number is up it isn't a financially devastating event.


----------



## LGLS

Shado said:


> As far as taking stuff personally here...I think like others have said...it is because of their experiences. I think it has been proven here that there is alot of hearsay, misunderstanding, and facts on both sides of the coin.
> 
> Nothing is perfect....the biggest issue is the fact that like the forefathers....they didn't like what they had overseas...left ...came here and started similar crap they wanted to leave behind. Wanted freedom of choice, religion, and to make a better life.
> 
> America is freedom..............until you step on the toes of others.....be it their ideals, beliefs, choices, etc.....therein lies the biggest problem here.
> 
> We all can make a choice where we work, who we work for, etc....it only matters as to what works for us individuallly.
> 
> Work where and for who you want.... just don't try and shove your choice down my throat or take over my business.
> 
> If you don't like my policies....leave, open your own shop, whatever....that is your choice.
> 
> Other than that...your fired!!!


Well Shado, seems our forefathers, the constitution, the law and the Supreme Court all disagree with you.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> $180.00 2 x a year, minus 80.40 2 x a year (I forget why) and 1% of my gross is thousand*s* a year? BTW that's all tax-deductable union dues so in reality, I don't pay any of it.
> 
> I can look online and see the compensation from salary to expenses to perks of EVERY paid union employee in my local. Nobody is making a fortune.


Tax deduction and tax credit are not the same. Look them up. Dues is tax-deductable, not a tax credit. 

As for getting rich - what about Brian what's his name, the one who recently got indicted. He did pretty well for himself. 

Lgls- you live in an alternate reality to most. Either you really are that niave, that disingenuous, or you one of the ones that makes the rest look bad.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> All jobs are open calls and free game - *nobody should have an entitlement mentality, right? Work for it and earn it. *


 What????? Are you actually saying this?????
That is a contradictory statement.
And how does this play into union as an agreement? 

This is non union policy!!!


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well Shado, seems our forefathers, the constitution, the law and the Supreme Court all disagree with you.


Want to clarify this a bit more?


----------



## EDC

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> $180.00 2 x a year, minus 80.40 2 x a year (I forget why) and 1% of my gross is thousand*s* a year? BTW that's all tax-deductable union dues so in reality, I don't pay any of it.


 Something being tax deductible does NOT mean that you don't pay it. You paid the full amount and then at the end of the year you saved a couple of bucks.

You REALLY need to sit down with an accountant.

We pay around $133 per quarter and 3% of gross so I paid $3,500 to the hall last year. This year I'll pay a LOT less since they say it'll be 18 months before they send me out  I had a good run with a solid contractor for a long time so I guess I can't complain as much as the other guys...


----------



## william1978

This thread has exploded today.:laughing:


----------



## oldman

Yep. And unfortunately it was full of a ton of BS. It's all over everything now


----------



## william1978

oldman said:


> Yep. And unfortunately it was full of a ton of BS. It's all over everything now


 Yea, over 400 post today so far.:laughing:


----------



## B4T

william1978 said:


> Yea, over 400 post today so far.:laughing:


Who ever said the IBEW had a bad reputation? :blink:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Tax deduction and tax credit are not the same. Look them up. Dues is tax-deductable, not a tax credit.
> 
> As for getting rich - what about Brian what's his name, the one who recently got indicted. He did pretty well for himself.


Brian McLaughin, yes he did. The question is, how? 

For starters, not a single dime of member's monies or dues or pensions were compromised. What Brian did was strong-arm some contractors into purchasing equipment through his shell corporation at inflated prices. He demanded money for cars and personal expenses from the 3 or 4 contractors under his jurisdiction, and in return, he allowed those contractors to not hire as many people as was required under city guidelines. 

All of the contractors involved were just a guilty as Brian.

As a Queensborough rep or president (whatever he was) I have no idea what political shennanigans he engaged in, but for certian there were, additionally as president of the NYC Central Labor Council I understand he also had some underhanded dealings going on there as well, but again I have no insight. 

The point I want to make clear is, the system may attract it's share of dishonest or underhanded thieves or opportunists, but that doesn't mean the system is bad. Look what ENRON was doing, should corporations be outlawed? Look what Bernie Madoff did, should fund investors be outlawed?



> Lgls- you live in an alternate reality to most. Either you really are that niave, that disingenuous, or you one of the ones that makes the rest look bad.


I am only whast I present myself to be OldMan. Nothing more or less.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Brian McLaughin, yes he did. The question is, how?
> 
> For starters, not a single dime of member's monies or dues or pensions were compromised. What Brian did was strong-arm some contractors into purchasing equipment through his shell corporation at inflated prices. He demanded money for cars and personal expenses from the 3 or 4 contractors under his jurisdiction, and in return, he allowed those contractors to not hire as many people as was required under city guidelines.
> 
> All of the contractors involved were just a guilty as Brian.
> 
> As a Queensborough rep or president (whatever he was) I have no idea what political shennanigans he engaged in, but for certian there were, additionally as president of the NYC Central Labor Council I understand he also had some underhanded dealings going on there as well, but again I have no insight.
> 
> The point I want to make clear is, the system may attract it's share of dishonest or underhanded thieves or opportunists, but that doesn't mean the system is bad. Look what ENRON was doing, should corporations be outlawed? Look what Bernie Madoff did, should fund investors be outlawed?
> 
> 
> 
> I am only whast I present myself to be OldMan. Nothing more or less.


Crackpot? Fruitcake? Shuckin' Jivin' peddler of Misinformation? Opportunist? They all fit.


----------



## Shado

Well...this one petered out quick....:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

Shado said:


> Well...this one petered out quick....:laughing:


 
Uh........ da Stupor Bowl, maybe?


----------



## EBFD6

Shado said:


> Well...this one petered out quick....:laughing:





480sparky said:


> Uh........ da Stupor Bowl, maybe?


We now return to our previously scheduled horse flogging already in progress............


----------



## slickvic277

Gentleman,I have enjoyed the debate,no hard feelings even to you Dnkldrf,This whole thread is the reason why I love this forum,no trigger happy mods shutting things down.

I'm surprised that this argument stayed as civil as it did.I can't believe I was on here all day and night....damn snow..... ...:thumbsup:


----------



## Shado

slickvic277 said:


> Gentleman,I have enjoyed the debate,no hard feelings even to you Dnkldrf,This whole thread is the reason why I love this forum,no trigger happy mods shutting things down.
> 
> I'm surprised that this argument stayed as civil as it did.I can't believe I was on here all day and night....damn snow..... ...:thumbsup:


none here either slick.......this will always be like ford vs Chevy, etc....:laughing:
even if no one agrees or is able to turn others to the dark side(be it which ever) it is still a hoot to read and banter with everyone...:thumbup:


----------



## Frasbee

I'd still like to go through the union apprenticeship. It's unfortunate New Orlean's ABC is such an utter joke, and that the union can be so difficult to get into.


----------



## LGLS

I say, let's all get together and do a gig for Habitat for Humanity, we'll all get lit and have a blast! (Until someone says the grounds should be up...)


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I say, let's all get together and do a gig for Habitat for Humanity, we'll all get lit and have a blast! (Until someone says the grounds should be up...)


That's not such a bad idea. Where possible, I think it's a great idea. Barriers are broken down when people actually see that the other guys are, in fact, a lot like them with similar values.


----------



## Shado

RIVETER said:


> That's not such a bad idea. Where possible, I think it's a great idea. Barriers are broken down when people actually see that the other guys are, in fact, a lot like them with similar values.


Actually Riveter...we are all alike...we are all electricains...just different employers....


----------



## Melissa809

My 2 big issues with the union is:

1...nepotism....when the employment director's brother is on the job and let's you know every chance he gets that he can get you a pink slip...or a business agent's brother who has been with the same shop for 6 years, yet he can hardly bend over to pick up some bx because he's so fat...or takes all day to splice out a 12 by 12 junction box...yet he makes sure he is the last one to clean up...i.e. playing the game

2. and this may sound unusual coming from a woman..BUT the constant pandering to minorities....especially women....how dare a woman come to a deck job with perfectly manicured LONG nails...and how dare the foreman NOT put her on chopping duty..lol....


----------



## EDC

Melissa809 said:


> My 2 big issues with the union is:
> 
> 1...nepotism....


 How is that ANY different than a non union shop with the owners 2 sons, 3 nephews, wife, and 4 long time buddies working for the company? 

People always complain about unions letting only the member's sons in yet half of the non union contractors give their entire business to their son while all the other electrician around don't have a shot at it. 
They even write it on the side of their truck!


----------



## Melissa809

EDC said:


> How is that ANY different than a non union shop with the owners 2 sons, 3 nephews, wife, and 4 long time buddies working for the company?
> 
> People always complain about unions letting only the member's sons in yet half of the non union contractors give their entire business to their son while all the other electrician around don't have a shot at it.
> They even write it on the side of their truck!


Nepotism is wrong...period!....and in my experience, the guys...and girls...who are related...well, enough of them are LAZY...I guess they figure they'll get by on their father's name...BUT..this enforces the stereotype of union workers being lazy!....which, in reality, is FALSE


Now, my brother and father are both carpenters...my Dad got him in the union...but because my brother is in such competition with my Dad....lol...he is one of the best carpenter's in his shop.....my Dad being THE best.....hahahaha


----------



## slickvic277

Melissa809 said:


> My 2 big issues with the union is:
> 
> 1...nepotism....when the employment director's brother is on the job and let's you know every chance he gets that he can get you a pink slip...or a business agent's brother who has been with the same shop for 6 years, yet he can hardly bend over to pick up some bx because he's so fat...or takes all day to splice out a 12 by 12 junction box...yet he makes sure he is the last one to clean up...i.e. playing the game
> 
> 2. and this may sound unusual coming from a woman..BUT the constant pandering to minorities....especially women....how dare a woman come to a deck job with perfectly manicured LONG nails...and how dare the foreman NOT put her on chopping duty..lol....



I was kinda feeling like this thread was rapping up with everyone shaking hands and catching there breath,I don't mean to be a d*ck but your like a dollar short and a day late.


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> I'd still like to go through the union apprenticeship. It's unfortunate New Orlean's ABC is such an utter joke, and that the union can be so difficult to get into.


*WHAT?!?!?!*

*You mean, the ABC's apprenticeship isn't every bit as good as the IBEW's???*

Sayit ain't so cuz... that's not what the ABC defenders have been saying here, in fact they say "The ABC has an apprentice proogram too!!!"


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I say, let's all get together and do a gig for Habitat for Humanity, we'll all get lit and have a blast! (Until someone says the grounds should be up...)





RIVETER said:


> That's not such a bad idea. Where possible, I think it's a great idea. Barriers are broken down when people actually see that the other guys are, in fact, a lot like them with similar values.



I'm in...in about six months when I'm cleared for work,Although Dnkldrf might try to pop me in the nose......:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Melissa809

slickvic277 said:


> I was kinda feeling like this thread was rapping up with everyone shaking hands and catching there breath,I don't mean to be a d*ck but your like a dollar short and a day late.


It's the freakin' internet...a message forum...not a freakin' union meeting...if I'm keeping you from getting to the bar.....well go ahead

And I'll say it...yes, you ARE a ****.......hahahahahahahaha


----------



## slickvic277

Melissa809 said:


> It's the freakin' internet...a message forum...not a freakin' union meeting...if I'm keeping you from getting to the bar.....well go ahead
> 
> And I'll say it...yes, you ARE a ****.......hahahahahahahaha


I know....I know.....Your not the first women to call me that,my wife reminds me constantly....my 3 sisters.....The list is endless.I wish I could get to the bar but I'm staring at 30'' of snow out my window.


----------



## Shado

slickvic277 said:


> I know....I know.....Your not the first women to call me that,my wife reminds me constantly....my 3 sisters.....The list is endless.I wish I could get to the bar but I'm staring at 30'' of snow out my window.


 You mean to say that you knew the snow was a coming....and you didn't stock your own bar? SHAME ON YOU!!!!!:laughing:


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> I'm in...in about six months when I'm cleared for work,Although Dnkldrf might try to pop me in the nose......:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I got your back brother, that blowhard won't get past me! :thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> I know....I know.....Your not the first women to call me that,my wife reminds me constantly....my 3 sisters.....The list is endless.I wish I could get to the bar but I'm staring at 30'' of snow out my window.


How did you get so much, here on LI we got ZERO!


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *WHAT?!?!?!*
> 
> *You mean, the ABC's apprenticeship isn't every bit as good as the IBEW's???*
> 
> Sayit ain't so cuz... that's not what the ABC defenders have been saying here, in fact they say "The ABC has an apprentice proogram too!!!"




I have never said that, we have our own classes.:thumbsup:


----------



## GoodLookingUglyGuy

So I see this went way o/t Just fyi I'm not rewire and I'm not out of local 73. That as you said would be suicide. and for anyone that wants to bad mouth me or my opinions pvt msg me so I don't miss anything.


----------



## brian john

The ABC I attended was very good, The union is also good. Though from both programs I have had apprentice misquoting code and issues with ground/grounded/grounding.

Just like union and open shop there are slackers and hard workers, there are guys that want 40 and go home to drink, there are all sorts of guys in both shops. What the open shops do not have are a string of perpetual slackers making top wages matching the hard workers wages. Oh and trouble makers on the level of union trouble makers.

In theory in open shops, the cream rises to the top, the union does little to encourage the cream to do more than curdle in many cases. Fortunately human nature drives MANY men to strive to be their best, while they make the same wages as a LOSER.

Deny this if you like but, if you do not think the union protects slackers you are asleep, ignorant or blind.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> If I have a problem at work I personally go to the boss and work it out.
> 
> If you have a problem at work you go to the union and have them take care of it for you.
> 
> How can you not get that?????????:blink:


When you take a call to a shop Bob, you work for the shop and the owner not the local union.

How can you not get that ???


----------



## Southeast Power

brian john said:


> The ABC I attended was very good, The union is also good. Though from both programs I have had apprentice misquoting code and issues with ground/grounded/grounding.
> 
> Just like union and open shop there are slackers and hard workers, there are guys that want 40 and go home to drink, there are all sorts of guys in both shops. What the open shops do not have are a string of perpetual slackers making top wages matching the hard workers wages. Oh and trouble makers on the level of union trouble makers.
> 
> In theory in open shops, the cream rises to the top, the union does little to encourage the cream to do more than curdle in many cases. Fortunately human nature drives MANY men to strive to be their best, while they make the same wages as a LOSER.
> 
> Deny this if you like but, if you do not think the union protects slackers you are asleep, ignorant or blind.


I would blame the leadership of your local union.
My experience has been quite different.
The non-union here are a bunch of transient drug addicts, fruit pickers and people that do not have ties to the community and can disappear with all of your tools, trucks and whatever they want.
If a union contractor has a problem with a person, they always know that the person can be found and held accountable. 
The union guys here have deep roots in the community and usually stay put for 40 years or so.
I have seen both sides and know the difference.

When I first got into the trade thirty years ago, some of what you mentioned was still around but, those days are long over and gone around here.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How did you get so much, here on LI we got ZERO!



We got another foot coming tomorrow.I usually like the snow,but with the disabled shoulder it's not much fun.A fellow 98 member lives down the street from me he shoveled everything for me,the whole property and both vehicles.If that aint brotherhood I don't know what is.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I got your back brother, that blowhard won't get past me! :thumbup:



I'm not sweating it,just gotta keep an eye open for a really,really,really,upset looking guy.....


----------



## slickvic277

Shado said:


> You mean to say that you knew the snow was a coming....and you didn't stock your own bar? SHAME ON YOU!!!!!:laughing:



I under estimated the amount of alcohol I needed,I was rummaging through the basement refridge., looking for the last bottle yesterday....I was getting all upset,then I stopped and said to myself "Look what I've become"....I calmly gathered myself as I remembered the booze under the sink....


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> The ABC I attended was very good, The union is also good. Though from both programs I have had apprentice misquoting code and issues with ground/grounded/grounding.
> 
> Just like union and open shop there are slackers and hard workers, there are guys that want 40 and go home to drink, there are all sorts of guys in both shops. What the open shops do not have are a string of perpetual slackers making top wages matching the hard workers wages. Oh and trouble makers on the level of union trouble makers.
> 
> In theory in open shops, the cream rises to the top, the union does little to encourage the cream to do more than curdle in many cases. Fortunately human nature drives MANY men to strive to be their best, while they make the same wages as a LOSER.
> 
> Deny this if you like but, if you do not think the union protects slackers you are asleep, ignorant or blind.


The recurring theme here seems to be an issue with making the same as someone less productive or knowlegable than yourself. I thought hourly wages were supposed to be a secret? Perhaps the gorilla in the room is really a pride / ego thing?


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The recurring theme here seems to be an issue with making the same as someone less productive or knowlegable than yourself. I thought hourly wages were supposed to be a secret? Perhaps the gorilla in the room is really a pride / ego thing?



Ya think,I remember when I was first starting out(open shop)I asked for and got a 2 dollar an hour raise it was my first raise in the business.I went from a whopping ten to twelve dollars an hour.Well when news got out that I got a 2$ raise(apparently that was unheard off)the jealousy came out of the wood work,I was young and naive didn't understand why everyone was so upset.That was when I realized that this system(so-called"merit"shop) blows,even one of the top foreman thought that I was "way over paid" and didn't know enough to "warrant that kind of money"

What a bunch off cry babies,I much prefer the established wage scale of the union,don't have to deal with the other sh*t.

And if a guy is a slug,it doesn't bother me,he'll be long gone while I'm still working.
I don't understand why the open shop guy's are so worried about lesser men making the same money as them.


----------



## SGC622

To be honest and to continue on with the school subject. I am comfortable saying that I learned 90% of what i know in this trade to my vocational high school. I have known what i wanted to do since i was 8 yrs old and have made it happen. so in high school i took it very seriously while i saw the other kids doing drugs sleeping in the tool crib or f'ing off. i had 1 non union teacher and two union, one of which was on code making panel 6. in union school and im sure in the ABC school you guys are talking about which i dont know too much about. they kind of rush you through everything, where in my high school you werent working, they took the time for you to get it. i see kids that i graduated in union school not knowing simple ohms law or how to wire a 3 way, its pathetic, and im sure its the same for the ABC school aswell. In my opinion vocational high school is the way to go, at least for me it was.


----------



## boulengerina

*Yup. Dats Rite.*



oldman said:


> i think these days, the construction unions (i.e IBEW) have multiple challenges...
> 
> 1) they lost their way and stopped providing what they promise - both to contractors and their own members....
> 
> call the hall for men, and it's a crap shoot as to whether they are productive or not...
> 
> additionally, right now lots of good JW's are out of work for extended periods while the inner circle c-suckers keep jumping the line and getting sent out to jobs...maybe this doesn't happen by you, but it happens in NJ...
> 
> 2) the IBEW gets lumped in with the government employee unions...sometimes they do this to themselves...
> 
> they need to differentiate themselves from the government workers unions...these are the unions that are truly destroying this country...
> 
> it's cases like this that turn people against unions...and to most people, all unions are the same
> 
> 3) the union members need to realize that they are entitled to nothing but an opportunity to prove their worth...
> 
> at this time, the unions are on a downward spiral that is not going to end, unless they fundamentally change their ways...they are the pen and paper in a computer world...



Well said, oldman. Never heard it better put myself. I'm gonna print this out and post it at the Hall, I swear to Onhigh.

You have gone several notches up in my book.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Strikes are counterproductive, it's much more effective to get your point across with a work slowdown. Work slowdowns are quiet and news cameras have nowhere to go and nothing to film, and the owner has to pay while nothing gets done.



No, the best way to get the point across is to work the other trades to death. Smoke it! Gitter done! 

Slow walking is the same as stealing. I hope you are kidding.


----------



## Frasbee

brian john said:


> The ABC I attended was very good, The union is also good. Though from both programs I have had apprentice misquoting code and issues with ground/grounded/grounding.


I suspect ABC facilities will vary greatly from region to region. As one might suspect from one of the poorest states in the US, the one here by New Orleans has minimal facilities. The teacher signed us off as passing on having used several power tools, and on bending pipe. I asked him if we'd ever actually use the tools on the list, and he said that we would...if we had any.

_I_ can bend pipe, but half the class doesn't have a clue. All he had us do was watch a movie, then spending half an hour having a couple guys bend 1/2'' emt. The only time he took the time to teach anyone how to bend, was when I tried showing a classmate to bend an offset. He didn't seem keen on letting anyone else teach.

He reads out of the book, word for word for 2 1/2 hours, as if you can simply learn everything you need to know out of a book. I sleep through the majority of the class, and I don't bother studying anything until minutes before the test when I copy the notes from someone else. Thus far, the crew from my company, (all of which are paying for this bull$hit), pass with mostly A's.

It's unfortunate you have to go _through_ the union to get employed by a union company. If you could go company to company I'd have a better chance. I just don't have the patience for some of the Union's policies.


----------



## brian john

Frasbee said:


> I suspect ABC facilities will vary greatly from region to region. As one might suspect from one of the poorest states in the US, the one here by New Orleans has minimal facilities. The teacher signed us off as passing on having used several power tools, and on bending pipe. I asked him if we'd ever actually use the tools on the list, and he said that we would...if we had any.


As is the union program


----------



## Frasbee

brian john said:


> As is the union program


I know the carpenter's union in Philly was pretty badass.

I'd guess most major cities have well equipped facilities.

Some people just want to get their paper an go, but I actually want something to back up that paper after I've paid all this money for it.


----------



## miller_elex

All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,

with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,

Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel. The employer associations e.g. ABC, IEC, NECA, are who represent you. The Ibew never represented a contractor, the Ibew represents the working man.

Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests. Grow up and go back to the business and marketing forum.


----------



## B4T

miller_elex said:


> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> quote]
> 
> I don't think Bob is a right wing anything, just a very good electrician who knows what he wants and is not afraid to go work for it.
> 
> Seems Bob intimidates you UNION guys where all you have left to say is personal attacks. :no:


----------



## JayH

Black4Truck said:


> miller_elex said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> quote]
> 
> I don't think Bob is a right wing anything, just a very good electrician who knows what he wants and is not afraid to go work for it.
> 
> Seems Bob intimidates *some of* you UNION guys where all you have left to say is personal attacks. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> There, fixed it for ya! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> 
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> 
> Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel. The employer associations e.g. ABC, IEC, NECA, are who represent you. The Ibew never represented a contractor, the Ibew represents the working man.
> 
> Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests. Grow up and go back to the business and marketing forum.




And to the original post's question, here is a perfect example of what the IBEW can address to fix a damaged reputation. 

It is this mentality that may foster ill will and conflict between union and non-union.


----------



## B4T

JayH said:


> Black4Truck said:
> 
> 
> 
> There, fixed it for ya! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing::laughing:
Click to expand...


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> 
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> 
> Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel. The employer associations e.g. ABC, IEC, NECA, are who represent you. The Ibew never represented a contractor, the Ibew represents the working man.
> 
> Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests. Grow up and go back to the business and marketing forum.


Spoken like a true A-HOLE, that furthers the belief that there are attitude issues with SOME union members.

And like so many of the super BLIND pro union members, I do a search for you post and OH GUESS WHAT nothing of substance in the electrical portion of this forum. Wait could you be one of the slackers we are discussing or just a dolt that has nothing of substance to post in a forum regarding our trade.


----------



## Advanced37

brian john said:


> Spoken like a true A$$ HOLE, that furthers the belief that there are attitude issues with SOME union members.


*
Not to take sides... but everybody has an a$$hole and there are plenty of them out there... union and non union. *:laughing::laughing::laughing:



brian john said:


> And like so many of the super BLIND pro union members, I do a search for you post and OH GUESS WHAT nothing of substance in the electrical portion of this forum. Wait could you be one of the slackers we are discussing or just a dolt that has nothing of substance to post in a forum regarding our trade.


*and I would venture that there are just as many "blind" non union electricians... *


----------



## BDB

miller_elex said:


> Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel.
> 
> Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests.


And dumb ass remarks like this is why the IBEW is not as strong/well liked as it use to be.


----------



## brian john

jammerx37 said:


> *
> Not to take sides... but everybody has an a$$hole and there are plenty of them out there... union and non union. *:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I agree 100% and maybe more!............................As hard as this is to believe more than one person has said this about me.




> *and I would venture that there are just as many "blind" non union electricians... *


Of the open shop electricians posting in this thread, all (that I can think of) post actual informative post and answers in many other sections of this forum that pertain to electrical issues.


----------



## River Boy

EDC said:


> How is that ANY different than a non union shop with the owners 2 sons, 3 nephews, wife, and 4 long time buddies working for the company? All the difference in the world. It's HIS company. He can do what he pleases with it. He can sell it, make it go bankrupt, make a million dollars with it, hire his worthless brother in-law or bed wetting dysfunctional nephew. It's HIS property not mine. He took the chances. If I think he's screwing me, I can always quit and go Union. Matter of fact that's just what I did.
> 
> People always complain about unions letting only the member's sons in yet half of the non union contractors give their entire business to their son while all the other electrician around don't have a shot at it.
> They even write it on the side of their truck!


The BA and the hall should, in theory at least, work for me. I didn't vote them in to see them trot out their family or old time pals for the gravy jobs. It's not the BAs name on the paycheck I get every week. They're going to have to dump this old union practice before if they ever want to grow again. Times have changed and they better wake up. This ain't the 50s. 


River Boy


----------



## Lone Crapshooter

In my area the IBEW did a good job of representing me and a lot of other good non-signitured electricians .These elitist would rather see a good non realitive electrician work non-signitured than offer them a chance to join union. 
Then all of the building trades unions will get on the television and remind us how lucky they are to be in a union and important it is to hire union people.


----------



## oldman

miller_elex said:


> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> 
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> 
> Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel. The employer associations e.g. ABC, IEC, NECA, are who represent you. The Ibew never represented a contractor, the Ibew represents the working man.
> 
> Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests. Grow up and go back to the business and marketing forum.


is ignorance rampant in your family, or are you an idiot savant?


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



oldman said:


> is ignorance rampant in your family, or are you an idiot savant?


What is an idiot savant? That is a new one for me.


----------



## EDC

River Boy said:


> All the difference in the world.


 Bologna.


> It's HIS company. He can do what he pleases with it.


And the union is the members, they own it. If they choose to be a Father-Son local, that's their choice.


Honestly, I could care less what unions do or don't do. My point is simply that it is just plain silly to complain about nepotism in unions when the non union sector is rampant with just as much, if not more nepotism going around.


----------



## miller_elex

brian john said:


> Spoken like a true A-HOLE!


I am proud to be an A-HOLE.

I'm an American too. A Proud American A-Hole!

Takes one to know one, B.John.

I could not give two sh1ts for someone who thinks the Ibew should fall by the wayside.

The most common argument I hear is, 'let the market decide what you are worth,' I've seen the market at work in the middle-east. The market decided brown people who are semi-skilled and work seventy hours a week in 120degree heat are worth about two dollars a day. 

If fearing the markets true nature makes me an A-HOLE, then so be it. But at the least, I am still a middle-class A-HOLE.


----------



## Advanced37

RIVETER said:


> What is an idiot savant? That is a new one for me.


Think "Rain Man"


----------



## wildleg

700 posts later and this thread is still sucking


----------



## B4T

wildleg said:


> 700 posts later and this thread is still sucking


It provides real drama and keeps the place from being boring..:laughing:


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> I agree 100% and maybe more!............................As hard as this is to believe more than one person has said this about me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of the open shop electricians posting in this thread, all (that I can think of) post actual informative post and answers in many other sections of this forum that pertain to electrical issues.


That's because it is only open shop electricians posting the questions and problems... largely. I mean, c'mon... GFCI problems? So many of them don't have a clue. Between this and Mike Holt's forum, 99 & 44/100% of the "questions" are from open shop electricians or one-man-band contractors in over their heads due to lack of proper training.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's because it is only open shop electricians posting the questions and problems... largely. I mean, c'mon... GFCI problems? So many of them don't have a clue. Between this and Mike Holt's forum, 99 & 44/100% of the "questions" are from open shop electricians or one-man-band contractors in over their heads due to lack of proper training.


Now you are just spitting out BS, we get plenty of questions from union guys about the most basic wiring questions.

Try posting some facts that you did not overhear at the hall.


----------



## brian john

LGLS

I'd bet these guys you defend can't even answer these basic questions, what does that say about them?

Or maybe they won't answer these questions for fear of giving away the secretes of electricity. What does that say about them.

Once again you are losing and bouncing off the wall.

I realize Miller is only an apprentice but there should be some basic knowledge he has picked up in the year/year's he has been in the program. 

I have posted this before but I thought I would restate this.

Personally I feel working in the union is best for electricians for a variety of reason, generally higher pay, consistent benefits that transfer from company to company.

The negatives are IMO, the pay issue with slackers (general term for men that may not be able to hold a job open shop) making the same as the majority of men that are productive, the union lawyers that are always on big jobs stirring up crap about OFTEN minimal issues. The holier than though attitude that is generally evident (in my experience) in those with the least ability/knowledge.

There are good men on both sides of the fence and what gets me is the narrow minded approach some union men take DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the union stance in trying to sway open shop men.

Talk about the benefits, be positive and stuff the narrow minded bigoted attitude in the trash.


----------



## SGC622

brian john said:


> I agree 100% and maybe more!............................As hard as this is to believe more than one person has said this about me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of the open shop electricians posting in this thread, all (that I can think of) post actual informative post and answers in many other sections of this forum that pertain to electrical issues.


both sides have done a good job at fighting their points its just that when the black sheep from both sides get on here and post they keep saying some idiotic things.


----------



## boulengerina

Thomps said:


> And to the original post's question, here is a perfect example of what the IBEW can address to fix a damaged reputation.
> 
> It is this mentality that may foster ill will and conflict between union and non-union.


I agree. Is it unfair to say, that to a great extent, the employer and the employee share the same interests? They are both trying to make money, and they are both counting on work. What other interests are there? 

I do not believe that ALL contractors want to screw their men out of money or hours or good working conditions. There are signatory (Union) contractors right here in NC that go above and beyond the contract, giving extra (paid) time for lunch, and not hiring ANYONE at the crappy little CW-0 classification (no insurance for 6 months, and minimal pay), as they believe that EVERYONE should have health insurance. While I recognize that all contractors are not like this, there are still quite a few good ones. 

We do, in fact, share the same interests. If you disagree, I would like to know why. You count on the next job, right? So does the contractor. You are trying to make money. So is the contractor. You want qualified men on the job (I should hope). So does the contractor. 

Maybe if you picture yourself as a sub-contractor selling your services to a contractor, it will help.:laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

Melissa809 said:


> Nepotism is wrong...period!....and in my experience, the guys...and girls...who are related...well, enough of them are LAZY...I guess they figure they'll get by on their father's name...BUT..this enforces the stereotype of union workers being lazy!....which, in reality, is FALSE
> 
> 
> Now, my brother and father are both carpenters...my Dad got him in the union...but because my brother is in such competition with my Dad....lol...he is one of the best carpenter's in his shop.....my Dad being THE best.....hahahaha


So what you are saying is that nepotism is wrong. Good. For a minute there, it sounded like you just don't like it in Unions, but its ok everywhere else!


----------



## SGC622

This forum has triggered me to want to learn alot more about the differenet aspects of the trade, and the few days i've been on here posting. I've went to alot of different people finding out the answers to all these good and valid points both non union and union guys are saying. 
First off i'll say to each his own, if you have the mentality that your going to change everyones mind with one simple post, your mistaken everyone will always find a weakness or flaw in both sides, personally in this economy my union moral has waivered but only because i thought i had these restrictions on me on where i could work. That was only until recently when i found that you can do anything you want in the union, if you want to work non-union go to your BA im sure you'll be able to work something out, after all they are here for US. 
In good times i have heard that there are some guys(the one that sit on the books in bad times) that will say what they want to get laid off cause they know they will go out the next day (bad mentality i agree.) There are some guys that use their local union (my local for example because we cover our workers healthcare indefinitely when they get laid off) as long as they dont roll the book 3 times. for their health insurance and take 2 week calls when necessary so they dont roll the book and lose the healthcare, they are some of the scumbags that should get kicked out.
One of the most awesome things that i have experience as an apprentice for one is the opportunity to be able to go up to your foreman or Journeyman and ask him about what you learned the night before in school and they would take time out of the day to teach you or show you how its done in real life, of course as long as it was relevant or simple. Hell i had one foreman upon hearing a question i asked took all the apprentices after break and explained to us my question, it doesnt stop there, i've had the owner of my shop do the same thing. Having worked non union i have NEVER seen that in my time working for them, not saying it doesnt happen but in my personal experience it hasnt. 
Lastly and i hate to rant sorry to everyone. If we did not have rules and such in place at the work place about Safety, Equality, and Fairness that at some point the union fought for, for everyone in this forum. Would you still say let a shop owner do what it wants to do cause i have the freedom to quit and find a better shop? would there be a better shop if no one fought for our rights? If no union stood up for and fought for what we have now, we could have been making the decision when deciding on where to work. (ok this shop sucks im quiting 14hr days with no break or lunch blows, im going to go apply over here they have 12 hr days and have a break during the day.)
Its easy for the non union guys to say hey let the owner be i'll find someone better, because the Rights on the jobsite today are acceptable and reasonable because of what the union has fought for in the past, im sure if you were working Pre-union you would be singing a different tune. which everyone back then was, i believe everyone was on the union side back then because the union started making jobsites fair, nowadays the union is kicked to the wayside because all the rights today are all commonplace for everyone. the union lost its uniqueness by fighting to equalize it for everyone. so you have a choice union or non union, just dont forget it before you bash the union where you got your Rights on the workplace.


----------



## Thomps

boulengerina said:


> I agree. Is it unfair to say, that to a great extent, the employer and the employee share the same interests? They are both trying to make money, and they are both counting on work. What other interests are there?
> 
> I do not believe that ALL contractors want to screw their men out of money or hours or good working conditions. There are signatory (Union) contractors right here in NC that go above and beyond the contract, giving extra (paid) time for lunch, and not hiring ANYONE at the crappy little CW-0 classification (no insurance for 6 months, and minimal pay), as they believe that EVERYONE should have health insurance. While I recognize that all contractors are not like this, there are still quite a few good ones.
> 
> We do, in fact, share the same interests. If you disagree, I would like to know why. You count on the next job, right? So does the contractor. You are trying to make money. So is the contractor. You want qualified men on the job (I should hope). So does the contractor.
> 
> Maybe if you picture yourself as a sub-contractor selling your services to a contractor, it will help.:laughing:


 
Well, speaking as a contractor (merit), I can tell you that I have never been able to afford to take a "us against them" mentaility when tackling labour issues.
The company's profitablity and well being is in my best interest, and the staff's best interest. 
We aren't setting out to go hell bent for leather only to burn out due to poor dicisions and mis management. My long term interests are tied to the staff, as I feel that theirs are to mine (as long as they are employed here anyway).

Unfortunately, Millers post was just a pot stir. contractors & labour can have a working relationship without that kind of attitude.


----------



## boulengerina

SGC622 said:


> This forum has triggered me to want to learn alot more about the differenet aspects of the trade, and the few days i've been on here posting. I've went to alot of different people finding out the answers to all these good and valid points both non union and union guys are saying.
> First off i'll say to each his own, if you have the mentality that your going to change everyones mind with one simple post, your mistaken everyone will always find a weakness or flaw in both sides, personally in this economy my union moral has waivered but only because i thought i had these restrictions on me on where i could work. That was only until recently when i found that you can do anything you want in the union, if you want to work non-union go to your BA im sure you'll be able to work something out, after all they are here for US.
> In good times i have heard that there are some guys(the one that sit on the books in bad times) that will say what they want to get laid off cause they know they will go out the next day (bad mentality i agree.) There are some guys that use their local union (my local for example because we cover our workers healthcare indefinitely when they get laid off) as long as they dont roll the book 3 times. for their health insurance and take 2 week calls when necessary so they dont roll the book and lose the healthcare, they are some of the scumbags that should get kicked out.
> One of the most awesome things that i have experience as an apprentice for one is the opportunity to be able to go up to your foreman or Journeyman and ask him about what you learned the night before in school and they would take time out of the day to teach you or show you how its done in real life, of course as long as it was relevant or simple. Hell i had one foreman upon hearing a question i asked took all the apprentices after break and explained to us my question, it doesnt stop there, i've had the owner of my shop do the same thing. Having worked non union i have NEVER seen that in my time working for them, not saying it doesnt happen but in my personal experience it hasnt.
> Lastly and i hate to rant sorry to everyone. If we did not have rules and such in place at the work place about Safety, Equality, and Fairness that at some point the union fought for, for everyone in this forum. Would you still say let a shop owner do what it wants to do cause i have the freedom to quit and find a better shop? would there be a better shop if no one fought for our rights? If no union stood up for and fought for what we have now, we could have been making the decision when deciding on where to work. (ok this shop sucks im quiting 14hr days with no break or lunch blows, im going to go apply over here they have 12 hr days and have a break during the day.)
> Its easy for the non union guys to say hey let the owner be i'll find someone better, because the Rights on the jobsite today are acceptable and reasonable because of what the union has fought for in the past, im sure if you were working Pre-union you would be singing a different tune. which everyone back then was, i believe everyone was on the union side back then because the union started making jobsites fair, nowadays the union is kicked to the wayside because all the rights today are all commonplace for everyone. the union lost its uniqueness by fighting to equalize it for everyone. so you have a choice union or non union, just dont forget it before you bash the union where you got your Rights on the workplace.


A bit wordy, but well said. And if the Union goes away tomorrow, we WILL gradually slip back to the "pre-Union" period, as you put it. But the Union needs to wake up. We need to get back to the basics. A Union contract should not weigh two pounds on 8.5 X 11 paper! We need to supply the finest manpower, at a living wage, to our contractors. Ask any contractor that de-certifies... usually the biggest reason is the quality or attitude of manpower, coupled with the high wages and benefits. KEYWORD: COUPLED!

Brian John, I want your input on this.

We can keep our wages and benefits, so long as the quality and attitude of the manpower improves. Seldom does anyone de-certify just because of the money. It's always the money, plus the manpower.

I have said before in this post, many so-called Union men have entitlement issues, that the rest of us that just want to work cannot afford to have on the job. Here in NC, there is currently a large project, employing about 250 brothers. The job is coming out of the ground, and this is NC in the winter. YOU SHOULD HEAR THE BITCHIN'!!!!! It's too cold... It's too wet... I don't have a warm place to eat my lunch... It takes too long to get off the jobsite at the end of the shift.... C'MON!!!! Are we men or mice???? I feel like a babysitter sometimes. There are appx 3.5 MILLION Americans out of work, and these geniuses want to wobble the job! It really makes me want to puke. We are construction workers. Most of us have families and mortgages and cars and lives that cost MONEY, and a handful of the (sorry, I hate this term) RATTIEST bunch of ticket holders (mostly travelers) want to come to OUR JURISDICTION and complain!?!?!?!?!? WTF?


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> All the whiners about the IBEW on here are contractors,
> 
> with a few exceptions like Bob, who are just right-wing sycophants,
> 
> Well guess what? The Ibew cares less what you contractors and nay-sayers feel. The employer associations e.g. ABC, IEC, NECA, are who represent you. The Ibew never represented a contractor, the Ibew represents the working man.
> 
> Of course yur mad at the Ibew, the Ibew does not represent you or your interests. Grow up and go back to the business and marketing forum.


You and others with that same attitude do so much more harm to the union than I ever will.

You seriously need to grow up and leave the Jr High school name calling in the past.


----------



## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> You and others with that same attitude do so much more harm to the union than I ever will.
> 
> You seriously need to grow up and leave the Jr High school name calling in the past.


Jeez, Bob... I hate agreeing with you.:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> Jeez, Bob... I hate agreeing with you.:laughing:


:laughing:

Even a broken clock is right a couple of times a day.


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



Bob Badger said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Even a broken clock is right a couple of times a day.


I was wondering if there are open shop jobs where both sides work together. If so, how are they doing? Do they fight all day. Just asking. Not picking on you Bob, just thought I'd get a straight answer. It is scary to think that people are this anxious about each other. If I find a person at lunch choking on a BIG MAC, will I have to see if he is a card holder or not before I perform CPR?


----------



## vanvincent218

if he was able to buy fries and a large coke he was probably a union man


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> A bit wordy, but well said. And if the Union goes away tomorrow, we WILL gradually slip back to the "pre-Union" period, as you put it. But the Union needs to wake up. We need to get back to the basics. A Union contract should not weigh two pounds on 8.5 X 11 paper! We need to supply the finest manpower, at a living wage, to our contractors. Ask any contractor that de-certifies... usually the biggest reason is the quality or attitude of manpower, coupled with the high wages and benefits. KEYWORD: COUPLED!
> 
> Brian John, I want your input on this.
> 
> We can keep our wages and benefits, so long as the quality and attitude of the manpower improves. Seldom does anyone de-certify just because of the money. It's always the money, plus the manpower.
> 
> I have said before in this post, many so-called Union men have entitlement issues, that the rest of us that just want to work cannot afford to have on the job. Here in NC, there is currently a large project, employing about 250 brothers. The job is coming out of the ground, and this is NC in the winter. YOU SHOULD HEAR THE BITCHIN'!!!!! It's too cold... It's too wet... I don't have a warm place to eat my lunch... It takes too long to get off the jobsite at the end of the shift.... C'MON!!!! Are we men or mice???? I feel like a babysitter sometimes. There are appx 3.5 MILLION Americans out of work, and these geniuses want to wobble the job! It really makes me want to puke. We are construction workers. Most of us have families and mortgages and cars and lives that cost MONEY, and a handful of the (sorry, I hate this term) RATTIEST bunch of ticket holders (mostly travelers) want to come to OUR JURISDICTION and complain!?!?!?!?!? WTF?


Nice post! Let's sum it up:

-Need to print contract on lightweight paper. Check.
-Need to easily weed out anyone not pulling their weight. How about "you're fired?" 
-Need attitude adjustment. Whether a man is happy as a clam or full of piss & vinegar, what does it have to do with their work? If their attitude negatively affects production, isn't there already recourse?

-Need overall higher quality manpower. By this I take it to mean more productive. That said, there will never be a time when any business owner whose purpose is profiting from the difference between production output and price minus overhead who will forget that if only one variable of this equation increases that profits will go up. Providing of course that the price of this increase doesn't follow suit. Therefore, the drive and desire to squeeze more profit out of a worker will be a neverending tug-of-war between management and labor that no measure ever seems to satisfy either.


----------



## paul d.

LGLS, just curious; are you or have been an " organizer " ?:blink:


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nice post! Let's sum it up:
> 
> -Need to print contract on lightweight paper. Check.
> -Need to easily weed out anyone not pulling their weight. How about "you're fired?"
> -Need attitude adjustment. Whether a man is happy as a clam or full of piss & vinegar, what does it have to do with their work? If their attitude negatively affects production, isn't there already recourse?
> 
> -Need overall higher quality manpower. By this I take it to mean more productive. That said, there will never be a time when any business owner whose purpose is profiting from the difference between production output and price minus overhead who will forget that if only one variable of this equation increases that profits will go up. Providing of course that the price of this increase doesn't follow suit. Therefore, the drive and desire to squeeze more profit out of a worker will be a neverending tug-of-war between management and labor that no measure ever seems to satisfy either.


Lightweight paper won't do the trick. The contracts need to be streamlined. Most contracts are old, and have been amended several times, and as a result, have a lot of irrelevant baggage in them. However, what seems irrelevant to a member may scare the living hell out of a prospective contractor!

"You're fired" works for me, and it even works in my Local. But many Locals simply can't stand their members being fired for "just cause", and will fight to the dying breath to defend the reprehensible. 

Attitude has EVERYTHING to do with their work. Or have you never run a job? Never heard of morale? Do you even work with your tools? Sorry, and I don't mean to offend, but your statements about attitudes don't make any sense.

And for the manpower... NOT just more productive. Do you have any idea how many members of the IBEW hold the JW Classification, but do not possess the skills? We are talkin' BIG MONEY for a crap shoot, if you are a contractor. Exactly WHAT will you get off the books? In most Locals, the best and brightest already have a job, so you are not likely to get the best and brightest. Instead, you will LIKELY receive a hack that was organized in a time of great prosperity, and lacks the skill to effectively set the gear.

And I beg to differ on your stance on contractors... many signatory contractors use bonuses as an incentive, so that if production goes up, they do remember it, and they do reward it!


----------



## boulengerina

paul d. said:


> LGLS, just curious; are you or have been an " organizer " ?:blink:


If he is, he's on the wrong track.


----------



## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> If I find a person at lunch choking on a BIG MAC, will I have to see if he is a card holder or not before I perform CPR?


Would a union guy want a rat to save his life? :laughing:


Of course we have been on many mixed jobs where we work together. :thumbsup:


----------



## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> Would a union guy want a rat to save his life? :laughing:
> 
> 
> Of course we have been on many mixed jobs where we work together. :thumbsup:


I'm a Union guy (to the bone), and would appreciate anyone saving my life. 

I know you're just joking, but quit using the term "rat"! It drives me nuts, and I hate it. All electricians are "brothers in trade", as we all share a common profession. There is NO PLACE for resentment between Union and non-Union electricians!


----------



## JayH

boulengerina said:


> There is NO PLACE for resentment between Union and non-Union electricians!


Except this forum of course. :laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

JayH said:


> Except this forum of course. :laughing:


rite!!:thumbup:


----------



## brian john

JayH said:


> Except this forum of course. :laughing:


With high unemployment in the field of comedy, you take this time to start telling jokes.:whistling2:


----------



## brian john

RIVETER said:


> I was wondering if there are open shop jobs where both sides work together. If so, how are they doing? Do they fight all day. Just asking. Not picking on you Bob, just thought I'd get a straight answer. It is scary to think that people are this anxious about each other. If I find a person at lunch choking on a BIG MAC, will I have to see if he is a card holder or not before I perform CPR?


We work with open shops all the time with no issues, I have also worked on a project where a union contractor had all the power distribution and an open shop did all the tenant fit out...NO ISSUES


----------



## boulengerina

brian john said:


> We work with open shops all the time with no issues, I have also worked on a project where a union contractor had all the power distribution and an open shop did all the tenant fit out...NO ISSUES


Same here in NC... The open shops often do the shells, and the Union shops do the TI's, or vice/versa. 

Listen... a non-Union electrician is STILL MY BROTHER. I do not resent them for anything. They didn't take "MY" work. They aren't doing anything wrong. They are just feeding their families and paying for their bass boats, just like me. If I have a problem with anyone, it's the owner of their shop who is paying them crappy wages with no benefits. NOT BECAUSE HE ISN'T UNION. 

Maybe I am an idealist, but I still believe that in a perfect world, there would be no need for Unions, as the middle-class would not be attacked from all sides. But that is a "perfect world", and in my life, I have seen no such thing.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> Lightweight paper won't do the trick. The contracts need to be streamlined. Most contracts are old, and have been amended several times, and as a result, have a lot of irrelevant baggage in them. However, what seems irrelevant to a member may scare the living hell out of a prospective contractor!


OK now let's call a spade a spade here, shall we? I mean, let's not beat around the bush. What you call "streamlining" is really RENEGOTIATING. You want some stuff in there OUT, reducing the actual weight of the contract is not your goal. The fact that you avoided calling this what it is is EXACTLY the reason unions are needed, your sneaky underhanded and backdoor attempts at gaining an edge for your OWN betterment and ecking away at the long-held standards that have been accepted over the decades.



> "You're fired" works for me, and it even works in my Local. But many Locals simply can't stand their members being fired for "just cause", and will fight to the dying breath to defend the reprehensible.


Well it works for you and your local, why complain about something that happens elsewhere that doesn't affect you? As for those other locals, it is their JOB to defend, even the reprehensible. All a contractor has to do is have a solid case and just cause and no amount of fighting, defending, or dying breath will work in the end.

Moreover, when those cylinders who aren't firing end up ROW'd, you have no idea how it negatively affects the other members who do the right thing day by day. It's disheartening, and to add insult to injury, the productive members get to see these same malcontents job after job, and oft times wonder "why do I bother?"

If that weren't enough - contractors are often loathe to fire people who so sorely need it - then have the audacity to gripe about being sent slackers when they call for manpower! 

I know it isn't easy, but there are times I have had to make phone calls and literally destroy a 4th or 5th year apprentice's career. I've had apprentices beg me to cover an absence because they know more than 2 gets them a piss test, and they'll fail it. Then out they go. I've had supers tell me to ROW because they do not want to risk being called in for a hearing at the local or to NYS unemployment Dept. 

But if you're pining for some way to just make the people you want to disappear easily without any further involvment on your part well I'm afraid you're attempting to circumvent everything a union is supposed to do, and that is just asking too much.



> Attitude has EVERYTHING to do with their work. Or have you never run a job? Never heard of morale? Do you even work with your tools? Sorry, and I don't mean to offend, but your statements about attitudes don't make any sense.


Yes I run work, and I know what you mean, it is clearly obvious how attitudes have changed from cocky towards timid since the full-employment days of the 90's. But keep in mind you're dealing with people here, not machines. Get your men out of the figure column and realize they are not units of labor, they're human beings with faults and flaws just like you. 



> And for the manpower... NOT just more productive. Do you have any idea how many members of the IBEW hold the JW Classification, but do not possess the skills? We are talkin' BIG MONEY for a crap shoot, if you are a contractor. Exactly WHAT will you get off the books? In most Locals, the best and brightest already have a job, so you are not likely to get the best and brightest. Instead, you will LIKELY receive a hack that was organized in a time of great prosperity, and lacks the skill to effectively set the gear.


In times like these there are many good men sanding the pine. Anyone not qualified you fire, simple. Quality of work unacceptable. Quality unbecoming a journeyman. Requires constant supervision. Recommend retraining. Absenteeism / lateness. Not in work area. Whatever - the tools are there for you - use them. 



> And I beg to differ on your stance on contractors... many signatory contractors use bonuses as an incentive, so that if production goes up, they do remember it, and they do reward it!


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



brian john said:


> We work with open shops all the time with no issues, I have also worked on a project where a union contractor had all the power distribution and an open shop did all the tenant fit out...NO ISSUES


That is good to know.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> OK now let's call a spade a spade here, shall we? I mean, let's not beat around the bush. What you call "streamlining" is really RENEGOTIATING. You want some stuff in there OUT, reducing the actual weight of the contract is not your goal. The fact that you avoided calling this what it is is EXACTLY the reason unions are needed, your sneaky underhanded and backdoor attempts at gaining an edge for your OWN betterment and ecking away at the long-held standards that have been accepted over the decades.
> 
> Actually, I would love to see "favored nations" gone... My Local has a modern, streamlined contract. It is less than a pound, and barely a quarter of an inch thick, and covers every conceivable situation and outlines in detail the rights of Management and the Union. I have had the chance to see some others (mostly up North), and they are ridiculously large. I should have clarified that not ALL contracts need to be streamlined... just the ridiculously large ones.
> 
> Well it works for you and your local, why complain about something that happens elsewhere that doesn't affect you? As for those other locals, it is their JOB to defend, even the reprehensible. All a contractor has to do is have a solid case and just cause and no amount of fighting, defending, or dying breath will work in the end.
> Do you really think that what goes on in California DOES NOT affect what goes on here in NC??? If so, you are narrow-minded as heck, and part of the overall problem with the IBEW. Wake up, "brother".
> 
> 
> Moreover, when those cylinders who aren't firing end up ROW'd, you have no idea how it negatively affects the other members who do the right thing day by day. It's disheartening, and to add insult to injury, the productive members get to see these same malcontents job after job, and oft times wonder "why do I bother?"
> 
> If that weren't enough - contractors are often loathe to fire people who so sorely need it - then have the audacity to gripe about being sent slackers when they call for manpower!
> So you agree with me here? Bad employees should be FIRED. End of story.
> 
> I know it isn't easy, but there are times I have had to make phone calls and literally destroy a 4th or 5th year apprentice's career. I've had apprentices beg me to cover an absence because they know more than 2 gets them a piss test, and they'll fail it. Then out they go. I've had supers tell me to ROW because they do not want to risk being called in for a hearing at the local or to NYS unemployment Dept.
> This is my point. If a Local has superior leadership, then this isn't an issue. But poor leaders are often quick to defend "their men", even if the men are the ones at fault. Vote 'em out.
> 
> But if you're pining for some way to just make the people you want to disappear easily without any further involvment on your part well I'm afraid you're attempting to circumvent everything a union is supposed to do, and that is just asking too much.
> As a matter of fact, I am VERY involved. I have ruined a few careers myself due to repeated acts of flagrant disregard for craftsmanship, and/or disregard for company policy (tardiness, insubordination, et cetera). If a man or woman shows up on my job with a JW ticket, and they are not really a JW, then they are fired immediately upon the discovery of their lack of skills. That way, the e-board can do something about it.
> 
> To cover for someone else's shortcomings is to be an enabler. And a thief. And everything that the Union is NOT supposed to represent.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I run work, and I know what you mean, it is clearly obvious how attitudes have changed from cocky towards timid since the full-employment days of the 90's. But keep in mind you're dealing with people here, not machines. Get your men out of the figure column and realize they are not units of labor, they're human beings with faults and flaws just like you.


And what does this mean? That we should all accept the ineptitude and piss-poor attitudes of a small minority of members, just because the IBEW has done so in the past? What? I hope that you are joking. And I think that you may be missing my point... I'm not talking about the occasional bad day... I'm talking about members with entitlement issues, the kind that scribble crap on the porta-jon wall about how bad things are, and how good things should be, but don't have the moxy to come to a meeting and say it. I'm talking about the guys who think we should wobble a job due to the weather and an a--hole GC. I don't care if they are just people like me. That does not give them the right to tear down conditions and act like morons. One man's "bad day" can cost 200 men their jobs! When we all think this way, we will have our Union back. Otherwise, we are a brotherhood of enablers. 

Slow walkin' is stealin'!


----------



## brian john

boulengerina said:


> And what does this mean? That we should all accept the ineptitude and piss-poor attitudes of a small minority of members, just because the IBEW has done so in the past? What? I hope that you are joking. And I think that you may be missing my point... I'm not talking about the occasional bad day... I'm talking about members with entitlement issues, the kind that scribble crap on the porta-jon wall about how bad things are, and how good things should be, but don't have the moxy to come to a meeting and say it. I'm talking about the guys who think we should wobble a job due to the weather and an a--hole GC. I don't care if they are just people like me. That does not give them the right to tear down conditions and act like morons. One man's "bad day" can cost 200 men their jobs! When we all think this way, we will have our Union back. Otherwise, we are a brotherhood of enablers.
> 
> Slow walkin' is stealin'!


What it means is there are basically 4 sides to this subject and this issues WILL NEVER BE SETTLED

Die hard union

Union that see some issues and want some change.

Open shop that would join the union if the chance was there

Die hard open shop

And there is some validity to each argument.


----------



## boulengerina

brian john said:


> What it means is there are basically 4 sides to this subject and this issues WILL NEVER BE SETTLED
> 
> Die hard union
> 
> Union that see some issues and want some change.
> 
> Open shop that would join the union if the chance was there
> 
> Die hard open shop
> 
> And there is some validity to each argument.


Brian, please file me in the second category. Thank you.:laughing:


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



brian john said:


> What it means is there are basically 4 sides to this subject and this issues WILL NEVER BE SETTLED
> 
> Die hard union
> 
> Union that see some issues and want some change.
> 
> Open shop that would join the union if the chance was there
> 
> Die hard open shop
> 
> And there is some validity to each argument.


There is a lot of truth to what you said...a lot of truth. I've been on both sides. I am, I believe, a good union man. I also know that whenever I had a problem with the company it was usually was with the foreman...who was also UNION. I really have not had THAT much problem but you have to remember to seperate the two sometimes. The company wants the job done and correctly done and sometimes a PERSONALITY gets in the middle.


----------



## boulengerina

words of wisdom...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> As for those other locals, it is their JOB to defend, even the reprehensible.


You really just don't get it do you?


----------



## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> You really just don't get it do you?


I don't think he does. And that's ok... This is America. He just better not come to our part of it.


----------



## william1978

boulengerina said:


> If I have a problem with anyone, it's the owner of their shop who is paying them crappy wages with no benefits. NOT BECAUSE HE ISN'T UNION.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...


----------



## Frasbee

boulengerina said:


> Brian, please file me in the second category. Thank you.:laughing:


Place my name next to the 3rd option.


----------



## LGLS

Originally Posted by *LawnGuyLandSparky*  

_OK now let's call a spade a spade here, shall we? I mean, let's not beat around the bush. What you call "streamlining" is really RENEGOTIATING. You want some stuff in there OUT, reducing the actual weight of the contract is not your goal. The fact that you avoided calling this what it is is EXACTLY the reason unions are needed, your sneaky underhanded and backdoor attempts at gaining an edge for your OWN betterment and ecking away at the long-held standards that have been accepted over the decades.

Actually, I would love to see "favored nations" gone... My Local has a modern, streamlined contract. It is less than a pound, and barely a quarter of an inch thick, and covers every conceivable situation and outlines in detail the rights of Management and the Union. I have had the chance to see some others (mostly up North), and they are ridiculously large. I should have clarified that not ALL contracts need to be streamlined... just the ridiculously large ones._

Without the "ridiculiously large" Northern contracts yours would be that much smaller. Sounds like you're looking for us all to meet the least common denominator, so... let's all go with Tampa's contract, being it's so thin and toothless, right? Yep... I know your game. In a nutshell, your wish list is just the begining.
_
_
_Well it works for you and your local, why complain about something that happens elsewhere that doesn't affect you? As for those other locals, it is their JOB to defend, even the reprehensible. All a contractor has to do is have a solid case and just cause and no amount of fighting, defending, or dying breath will work in the end._
_
Do you really think that what goes on in California DOES NOT affect what goes on here in NC??? If so, you are narrow-minded as heck, and part of the overall problem with the IBEW. Wake up, "brother".

*Sorry chum... my local wage base is $49.00 on the check, what's it by Jacksonville, huh? Our contract has no apparent effect on that now does it? Geez, just a few counties North of me the contracts go all over the map. You want to gut the largest and the best contracts towards what end? Definately not to make your's better, that's for **** sure.*_
_
__Moreover, when those cylinders who aren't firing end up ROW'd, you have no idea how it negatively affects the other members who do the right thing day by day. It's disheartening, and to add insult to injury, the productive members get to see these same malcontents job after job, and oft times wonder "why do I bother?"

If that weren't enough - contractors are often loathe to fire people who so sorely need it - then have the audacity to gripe about being sent slackers when they call for manpower! _
_
So you agree with me here? Bad employees should be FIRED. End of story._

_*With proper documentation and a fair hearing, yes. And, isn't that the way it is? Yes.*_
_
I know it isn't easy, but there are times I have had to make phone calls and literally destroy a 4th or 5th year apprentice's career. I've had apprentices beg me to cover an absence because they know more than 2 gets them a piss test, and they'll fail it. Then out they go. I've had supers tell me to ROW because they do not want to risk being called in for a hearing at the local or to NYS unemployment Dept. 
_
_This is my point. If a Local has superior leadership, then this isn't an issue. But poor leaders are often quick to defend "their men", even if the men are the ones at fault. Vote 'em out.
_
_*I see... vote out the leaders who do their jobs defending their men. Geez you're rich! Sounds to me like you want the ability to get rid of whomever for whatever reason, and use the power of "I can screw anyone I like to and get away with it" as a management tool - you want none of your members to have any rights or power themselves.*_

*Basically what you're saying is you want unions to become less "union-y" you want local unions to get right in bed with contractors and see everything their way. Anything less and they're not progressive.*

But if you're pining for some way to just make the people you want to disappear easily without any further involvment on your part well I'm afraid you're attempting to circumvent everything a union is supposed to do, and that is just asking too much.

As a matter of fact, I am VERY involved. I have ruined a few careers myself due to repeated acts of flagrant disregard for craftsmanship, and/or disregard for company policy (tardiness, insubordination, et cetera). If a man or woman shows up on my job with a JW ticket, and they are not really a JW, then they are fired immediately upon the discovery of their lack of skills. That way, the e-board can do something about it. 

*But you have to admit this is not what many contractors are doing, otherwise this would never be a problem to begin with.*

To cover for someone else's shortcomings is to be an enabler. And a thief. And everything that the Union is NOT supposed to represent.

*Union members, officers and the contractors are all guilty of this.* 


Yes I run work, and I know what you mean, it is clearly obvious how attitudes have changed from cocky towards timid since the full-employment days of the 90's. But keep in mind you're dealing with people here, not machines. Get your men out of the figure column and realize they are not units of labor, they're human beings with faults and flaws just like you.


_And what does this mean? That we should all accept the ineptitude and piss-poor attitudes of a small minority of members, just because the IBEW has done so in the past? What? I hope that you are joking._

_*No I'm saying inept is unacceptable, but I could care less about attitude as long as the work is getting done and it's not dragging others down. There will always be people you'd like to replace, but that is going to be the case no matter what the working rules are, so you might as well learn how to deal with the different human conditions different individuals exhibit and learn how to cope.*_

_ And I think that you may be missing my point... I'm not talking about the occasional bad day... I'm talking about members with entitlement issues, the kind that scribble crap on the porta-jon wall about how bad things are, and how good things should be, but don't have the moxy to come to a meeting and say it. _

_*I have a feeling you're talking about anyone not obliged to grovel at your feet and beg you for another day... Seriously, grafitti on the ****house walls? You gotta be kidding me.*_

_I'm talking about the guys who think we should wobble a job due to the weather and an a--hole GC. I don't care if they are just people like me. That does not give them the right to tear down conditions and act like morons. One man's "bad day" can cost 200 men their jobs! When we all think this way, we will have our Union back. Otherwise, we are a brotherhood of enablers. _

_*Consider this: Would you be satisfied if you achieved all of these goals tomorrow? You'll probably answer YES but the truth of the matter is, no matter what the standards are and no matter what the conditions may be, you and other like minded contractors will never be satisfied that the playing field is level, never be satisfied that things are fair, and never be satisfied that the system and process is good enough, streamligned enough, or quick enough. Not as long as you know in your heart of hearts that the lower you drop the standards for the working man the wealthier you can become.*_


----------



## william1978

Frasbee said:


> Place my name next to the 3rd option.


:yes: Mine too.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Frasbee, I thought you were union. You can't get in? What s the deal?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> You really just don't get it do you?


Who isn't getting what Bob? The guy can't simply point to an employee and say "you're fired." He can't walk on the job and see a guy standing there doing nothing (because his foreman told him to wait there) and start slashing and burning. 

He can document the incident and present it as evidence at the hearing. If there's contractural cause, the JW is history, simple no? But to wish for the conditions similar to a nonunion free-for-all is just plain ludicrious.


----------



## B4T

Nola.. things are going great for NO :thumbsup:

They got rid of Nagan and his "chocolate city"

Won the Super Bowl against all odds 

Steven Seagal is keeping the peace :thumbsup:


----------



## Frasbee

NolaTigaBait said:


> Frasbee, I thought you were union. You can't get in? What s the deal?


You kiddin' me??

I'd like to get into the Union, but I can't do it down here because I'll be leaving soon.

Nah, so far I've been "raised" open shop since Feb. '08.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Who isn't getting what Bob?


If you don't understand that defending the 'reprehensible' hurts the IBEWs reputation (The subject this thread is about) you really don't get.


----------



## JayH

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Who isn't getting what Bob? The guy can't simply point to an employee and say "you're fired." He can't walk on the job and see a guy standing there doing nothing (because his foreman told him to wait there) and start slashing and burning.
> 
> He can document the incident and present it as evidence at the hearing. If there's contractural cause, the JW is history, simple no? But to wish for the conditions similar to a nonunion free-for-all is just plain ludicrious.


Those guys can't do that over in the open shop either, lest they feed the members of the State Bar (Esquire.)

Someone would have to do something awfully agregious to warrant a terminated for cause in this society.

Better to simply give them an ROF wherever they're employed.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> Those guys can't do that over in the open shop either, lest they feed the members of the State Bar (Esquire.)


He will never believe that.


----------



## brian john

RIVETER said:


> . I also know that whenever I had a problem with the company it was usually was with the foreman...who was also UNION. I really have not had THAT much problem but you have to remember to seperate the two sometimes.


The few issues I had when I was in the field were with superintendents or foreman. Now in some cases they MAY have been enforcing company policy, which I had no real problem with, but the crappy delivery and attitude of the messenger.

The one owner issue I had was at an open shop, I thought he was screwing the men and I told him so, he told me if I did not like it, leave, so I quit. 

With the union, the superintendent I had an issue with, was a screamer he screamed at me and I walked. The other guy tried to screw me out of time, in the long run it cost him, I put all my legitimate working hours on his project, even if I was on another job (same company).


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Black4Truck said:


> Nola.. things are going great for NO :thumbsup:
> 
> They got rid of Nagan and his "chocolate city"
> 
> Won the Super Bowl against all odds
> 
> Steven Seagal is keeping the peace :thumbsup:


We'll see about Mitch Landrieu. His father was the last white mayor like 35 years ago. AS far as the Saints, I think we will be happy for months...Maybe people will start to spend money:thumbsup:. Steven SEagal show is so fake. That old guy is John Fortunato he is like the #2 guy in teh whole department, you think he is really going on busts? He hasn't done copwork is years.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Frasbee said:


> You kiddin' me??
> 
> I'd like to get into the Union, but I can't do it down here because I'll be leaving soon.
> 
> Nah, so far I've been "raised" open shop since Feb. '08.


So, you are out for sure? As much as we all talk crap about NeW Orleans, the day you leave you will regret it. I think you'll miss it.


----------



## slickvic277

NolaTigaBait said:


> So, you are out for sure? As much as we all talk crap about NeW Orleans, the day you leave you will regret it. I think you'll miss it.


Especially When he see's all the snow here.Oh crap it's snowing again.

I'm almost empty on a 50lb bucket of salt I bought earlier in the season.


----------



## Frasbee

Delete


----------



## Frasbee

NolaTigaBait said:


> So, you are out for sure? As much as we all talk crap about NeW Orleans, the day you leave you will regret it. I think you'll miss it.


Like I said, this time of year, mild winter, and mardi gras, New Orleans is great.

Summer time? Which lasts about half the year? :wacko:

Yeah, there are things I will miss, no doubt, but there's a lot of things I'm missing from the NE. Especially the outdoors.


----------



## brian john

LGLS:

Do you believe all that you post regarding the IBEW or are you defending the IBEW because you are such a good electrician and proud member of the IBEW that you can't imagine there are public perceptions that UNIONS (which by default the IBEW falls into) are bad for the USA* and that some IBEW members take unfair advantage of the protections offered and there also other members that through SOME actions hurt the public image of the IBEW?


* Many Americans fell that unions are bad and the public perception of the IBEW and unions in general is what started this post.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> LGLS:
> 
> Do you believe all that you post regarding the IBEW or are you defending the IBEW because you are such a good electrician and proud member of the IBEW that you can't imagine there are public perceptions that UNIONS (which by default the IBEW falls into) are bad for the USA* and that some IBEW members take unfair advantage of the protections offered and there also other members that through SOME actions hurt the public image of the IBEW?
> 
> 
> * Many Americans fell that unions are bad and the public perception of the IBEW and unions in general is what started this post.


Brian,

I do not know every intimate detail about every Local in the IBEW. Some are more foward thinking and others are stuck in the stone age apparently. I'm aware there are opinions and attitudes and perceptions about unions in this country that are misunderstood, exaggerated, and just plain propoganda.

I know that when a union member does something spectacularly negative, the media is all over it and never fails to mention the union affiliation. But when Joe Shmo murders and dismembers an ex-girlfriend, they never mention he was a non-union worker, do they? 

Unions are and have for a very long time been under attack by the corporate controlled media. Business wants unions gone, business wants everyone working under Walmart wages and conditions. Somehow this is supposed to be good for our country. Business owns the news stations, all radio and all print media. 

Public perception is whatever the media wants public perception to be. 

Yes Brian, SOME members take advantage of union protections. SOME contractors take advantage of employee ignorance. SOME members slipped through the cracks and are underqualified. SOME contractors bite off more than they can chew and don't understand subpanels in vending booths in gymnasiums but take the job anyway and post their questions here.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Brian,
> 
> I do not know every intimate detail about every Local in the IBEW. Some are more foward thinking and others are stuck in the stone age apparently. I'm aware there are opinions and attitudes and perceptions about unions in this country that are misunderstood, exaggerated, and just plain propoganda.
> 
> I know that when a union member does something spectacularly negative, the media is all over it and never fails to mention the union affiliation. But when Joe Shmo murders and dismembers an ex-girlfriend, they never mention he was a non-union worker, do they?
> 
> Unions are and have for a very long time been under attack by the corporate controlled media. Business wants unions gone, business wants everyone working under Walmart wages and conditions. Somehow this is supposed to be good for our country. Business owns the news stations, all radio and all print media.
> 
> Public perception is whatever the media wants public perception to be.
> 
> Yes Brian, SOME members take advantage of union protections. SOME contractors take advantage of employee ignorance. SOME members slipped through the cracks and are underqualified. SOME contractors bite off more than they can chew and don't understand subpanels in vending booths in gymnasiums but take the job anyway and post their questions here.



And I agree. Now how do we combat this?


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> And I agree. Now how do we combat this?


Its a 3-pronged effort. :laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Consider this: Would you be satisfied if you achieved all of these goals tomorrow? You'll probably answer YES but the truth of the matter is, no matter what the standards are and no matter what the conditions may be, you and other like minded contractors will never be satisfied that the playing field is level, never be satisfied that things are fair, and never be satisfied that the system and process is good enough, streamligned enough, or quick enough. Not as long as you know in your heart of hearts that the lower you drop the standards for the working man the wealthier you can become.[/B][/COLOR][/I]


FYI, I am not a contractor... I am an electrician. And I can only surmise from your archaic attitude that you are one of the types of members that does not understand that the contractor and the employee share, to a GREAT extent, the same goals... that is to make the most money possible, by doing the most (and best) work possible. You still have the "us vs them" attitude that has run this once great and proud Union into the ground. If you can sleep at night, good for you, but you are without a doubt part of the problem. 
Do you think that you are the right guy to go to work for a BRAND NEW SIGNATORY? I think your lack of flexibility and hardline attitude (problem) would likely send a new signatory screaming in fear and running for the hills. You would scare them, lawnmower man. If you continue to do business as you have always done, then WE COLLECTIVELY will continue to get exactly what we've been getting... dwindling market share, and a soft, squishy fair weather membership that dwindles as well. 

The sixties are WAY OVER!

And your narrow-minded thoughts on how one Local does NOT affect another only goes to prove my point. I don't know how things are in Jax, or anywhere else in Florida, as I do not work there. I do know, however, that in order to sign new contractors, they had to streamline their contract. I would love to see you explain to a new contractor how a 1.5" thick contract is good for them and their business. If they feel like they need a lawyer to read it, you probably WILL NOT SIGN THEM.


----------



## SGC622

As far as the media is concerned and the negative image they portray on the union, not only do i know that the media will only air the juicy stuff that will turn heads but i also feel that the tainted image is also because half the people that watch the news are either uneducated about the unions cause, or just have a union hating mentality, i think that some kind of history channel documentary about the union should be made explaining in detail how things were in the old days and the gradual progress of the union. i know there are things out there but they either dont have the appeal or need an edgier title. 

I dont know about the rest of you but if i knew nothing about the union and saw the news and they way the union got things accomplished i would be like *SSHOLES! But i wouldnt have known that my current job enviroment was provided to me because of the union and that the way the union is behaving is to a degree necessary. Im not ignorant to the fact that yes our union rallies do get somewhat out of hand, but thats probably because of the hard-core members with the mentality we are talking but thats ruining things that take things way out of control.


----------



## Bob Badger

SGC622 said:


> As far as the media is concerned and the negative image they portray on the union, not only do i know that the media will only air the juicy stuff that will turn heads but i also feel that the tainted image is also because half the people that watch the news are either uneducated about the unions cause, or just have a union hating mentality,


As true as all that may be, it still hurts the unions image.


----------



## miller_elex

The IBEW does not have a damaged reputation.

Look around, potential apprentices are begging to be let in the door.
IBEW jobs are held in high esteem.

Yall are just jealous worker-bees, seeing as the queen-bee kept your share of the honey.

The contractors on here feel the IBEW is a threat to their take. They don't want to pay a penny more than a man needs to make it home, eat, sleep, and come back the next day for more lashings.


----------



## oldman

yeah...that's it


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> FYI, I am not a contractor... I am an electrician. And I can only surmise from your archaic attitude that you are one of the types of members that does not understand that the contractor and the employee share, to a GREAT extent, the same goals... that is to make the most money possible, by doing the most (and best) work possible. You still have the "us vs them" attitude that has run this once great and proud Union into the ground. If you can sleep at night, good for you, but you are without a doubt part of the problem.
> Do you think that you are the right guy to go to work for a BRAND NEW SIGNATORY? I think your lack of flexibility and hardline attitude (problem) would likely send a new signatory screaming in fear and running for the hills. You would scare them, lawnmower man. If you continue to do business as you have always done, then WE COLLECTIVELY will continue to get exactly what we've been getting... dwindling market share, and a soft, squishy fair weather membership that dwindles as well.
> 
> The sixties are WAY OVER!
> 
> And your narrow-minded thoughts on how one Local does NOT affect another only goes to prove my point. I don't know how things are in Jax, or anywhere else in Florida, as I do not work there. I do know, however, that in order to sign new contractors, they had to streamline their contract. I would love to see you explain to a new contractor how a 1.5" thick contract is good for them and their business. If they feel like they need a lawyer to read it, you probably WILL NOT SIGN THEM.


You are entitled to your opinion Bo. Ever consider you could be wrong about some things?

Not only am I the kinda guy they'd send to a signatory contractor, I'm the kinda guy they send when a signatory contractor comes to the union crying about a job going down the toilet and they'll go under unless a miracle occurs. (Meaning it is in the union's best intrests to help bail them out.)

BTW, the particular contractor I'm working for now had NO PROBLEM signing a contract for a multi-million job for a city agency it had never worked for before, that has a code book that makes the NEC look and read like a supermarket tabloid. I doubt a 2" thick working agreement is too complicated for them. It's what's inside that matters and what's inside is, like it or not, non negotiable. Sorry you feel this is 60's thinking but I happen to believe that as the decades wear on the plight and conditions of the working man ought to improve, or at least remain stable, not regress backwards in time. 

This signatory contractor misclassified every one of the men he put on this job average 3 steps ahead of their real capabilities, and essencially had been working every job with not one qualified journeyman. Their licenseholder stayed in the office and spent the day fielding calls about code, troubleshooting, and would re-draw plans in a manner that a child could follow them to make up for lack of field experience.

6000 amp switchgear is ordered and one guys says "we might need dollys." They were using 2" dies I think my grandfather threw away. 

As is typical of nonsignatory shops, the man's business plan was one or NONE qualified j-men and make up for the lack of skills and experience and knowledge with sheer quantity and a lower payroll. To add insult to injury, the degree of adult maturity among the employees I'd peg somewhere between an out-of-control Junior high school sheetmetal shop and summer band camp.

These "businessmen" / iinvestors without once ever having worked in construction themselves thought the guy on line at the threader should be fired for "just standing there," as though there was some way for everyone to accurately time their need alternately to thread pipe on the one threading station provided for a 2-mile segment of track. They wanted to know why I ordered a porta-lav. The job works nights, and they want to know why I needed 2 dozen double 1000 watt quartz lights: "Aren't flashlights on the tool list?" 

Now Bo... I know other locals have but we have not "streamlined" our contract for signatory contractors or organized contractors. The local DOES make it clear though that while they get their feet wet they will be treated with kid gloves in many respects, but not EVERY respect, until they are brought up to speed. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Be mindful that some negative public perceptions about unions are that they exist at all, or that someone else working for a living has some kind of edge over their own personal situation. Their feelings an attitudes are borne of jealousy, and sorry but I'm not looking to win them over.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not only am I the kinda guy they'd send to a signatory contractor, I'm the kinda guy they send when a signatory contractor comes to the union crying about a job going down the toilet and they'll go under unless a miracle occurs. (Meaning it is in the union's best intrests to help bail them out.)



Pride goes before a fall.


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> The IBEW does not have a damaged reputation.


Funny. :laughing:



> Look around, potential apprentices are begging to be let in the door.


They ring our phone as well.



> IBEW jobs are held in high esteem.


No construction job is held in high regard.



> The contractors on here feel the IBEW is a threat to their take.


Yeah we shake in fear, ooooowwww it is the IBEW they are gonna get us. :laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott

You guys must enjoy digging holes in sand. :laughing:


----------



## user4818

electricmanscott said:


> You guys must enjoy digging holes in sand. :laughing:


Welcome! :thumbup:

I think you will enjoy the insanity. :whistling2:


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> The IBEW does not have a damaged reputation.


I realize you are an apprentice and may not realize this at a young age, but unions are suffering in this country, in the public eye they are seen as archaic and over bearing, possibly damaging to the economy. 

The IBEW gets lumped in with this, in line with this are the folks you call YALL, these are the people WE NEED TO ORGANIZE not alienate. You have a lot of growing up to do and hopefully you will become a GOOD ambassador for the IBEW, not someone that drives possible members away.


----------



## oldman

electricmanscott said:


> You guys must enjoy digging holes in sand. :laughing:


only 1/2 as much as I like filling them back in


----------



## oldman

brian john said:


> I realize you are an apprentice and may not realize this at a young age, but unions are suffering in this country, in the public eye they are seen as archaic and over bearing, possibly damaging to the economy.
> 
> The IBEW gets lumped in with this, in line with this are the folks you call YALL, these are the people WE NEED TO ORGANIZE not alienate. You have a lot of growing up to do and hopefully you will become a GOOD ambassador for the IBEW, not someone that drives possible members away.


well brian, like with the rest of lifes problems...the 1st thing these guys have to do is 'admit' that there is a problem...until they stop denying it, nothing will ever get better...


----------



## brian john

electricmanscott said:


> You guys must enjoy digging holes in sand. :laughing:


Great saying is that an original?


----------



## B4T

electricmanscott said:


> You guys must enjoy digging holes in sand. :laughing:


Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

We also like digging holes in the dirt to bury 6X6 PVC boxes :whistling2:


----------



## Frasbee

miller_elex said:


> The IBEW does not have a damaged reputation.
> 
> Look around, potential apprentices are begging to be let in the door.
> IBEW jobs are held in high esteem.


The jobs are, yes.

The politics behind it, not so much.

I want the Union's money, but that doesn't mean I'm not wary of their practices.

The easiest way to change something like that is from the inside, though.


----------



## miller_elex

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah *we* shake in fear, ooooowwww it is the IBEW they are gonna get us. :laughing:


We? You ain't no contractor, unless you count side-work.

The contractor calls you one of his ladies, if you know what I mean, out working the corner.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> No construction job is held in high regard.



I think we have finally found the root of Bob's self esteem problem :thumbsup:
And,
We know they don't let him out of the office to work in the field due to the amount of time he has to troll the union topic site.:laughing:
Ever notice how
Not one post can go up with out a silly anti-union comment.:yawn:

I think he must be like Cliff the mailman that used to roost at the bar in the Cheers sit com.:shutup:


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> I think we have finally found the root of Bob's self esteem problem :thumbsup:
> And,
> We know they don't let him out of the office to work in the field due to the amount of time he has to troll the union topic site.:laughing:
> Ever notice how
> Not one post can go up with out a silly anti-union comment.:yawn:
> 
> I think he must be like Cliff the mailman that used to roost at the bar in the Cheers sit com.:shutup:


It keeps this section of the forum moving and exposes some of the issues on both sides of the discussion.

The truth of the matter as in most discussions is the middle where both parties give some is what is best.

I JUST FEEL the IBEW should try to take the high road, it might take longer but it works. 

Who did better in changing the Jim Crow Laws of the south MLK or the KKK?

MLK who took a MUCH HIGHER road then the slime bags of the KKK which at one time was a powerful force in America. Americans turned on the klan for their ****ty tactics.

While it is a stretch to compare the two groups (KKK and unions) public perception is what we are discussing and the public has turned against unions


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> It keeps this section of the forum moving and exposes some of the issues on both sides of the discussion.
> 
> The truth of the matter as in most discussions is the middle where both parties give some is what is best.


The IBEW (and every union) already found a middleground between it's members and contractors. Anyone wishing the IBEW "give" more is simply looking to tear down what took decades to achieve. So forgive my GFY attitude.



> I JUST FEEL the IBEW should try to take the high road, it might take longer but it works.
> 
> Who did better in changing the Jim Crow Laws of the south MLK or the KKK?
> 
> MLK who took a MUCH HIGHER road then the slime bags of the KKK which at one time was a powerful force in America. Americans turned on the klan for their ****ty tactics.
> 
> While it is a stretch to compare the two groups (KKK and unions) public perception is what we are discussing and the public has turned against unions


Right now the public is seeing the result of reckless corporate ideals put to practice in real life. Now let them stew a little and wallow in their empty soup pots, let the depression happen. Would be the best thing to kickstart the American Labor Movement once again.


----------



## boulengerina

I can see why you guys give LGLS such a hard time... he says it has never occurred to me that I may be wrong! Wow... talk about the pot callin' the kettle black!

LGLS, I understand that you are an expert on all things now. I have seen the error of my ways. Thank you oh great one!:laughing:

I have never said that working people's interests need to move backwards, but it doesn't surprise me that you would interpret such. I went back to many of your posts, and it seems that you enjoy putting words into other people's mouths, and intentionally misinterpreting what they say. So your thoughts on all of this are par for the course, and after looking at your history, meaningless.

You seem to fundamentally believe in the same principles as I do, but your tactics are VERY different. A complicated contract does not serve the members of a Local Union any more or less than a simplified one. They both can (and should) do the exact same thing, but the complicated contracts DO SCARE NEW CONTRACTORS. The contractor that you site in your previous reply was in deep doo-doo, and had no choice but to seek our aid in bailing them out. And being "against the wall", they had no choice but to cooperate. But what I want is for a non-union contractor that is NOT IN TROUBLE, but healthy, and looking to improve, to go to my Local and sign a Letter of Assent because the IBEW actually offers a service to the contractor above and beyond manpower. We MUST offer more than manpower, otherwise the staffing agencies will eat ALL of out lunch, so to speak. We must be more than a high-paid staffing agency with a fancy training program, don't you agree? Or do you? 

Should you decide to reply, LGLS, please consider that YOU may be wrong. You seem to think that the IBEW should continue to do business the same old way, or am I mistaken? I am trying to interpret your thoughts through your vague generalities, and I COULD BE WRONG! You tell me. I am at peace with that.:laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Right now the public is seeing the result of reckless corporate ideals put to practice in real life. Now let them stew a little and wallow in their empty soup pots, let the depression happen. Would be the best thing to kickstart the American Labor Movement once again.


I knew we had to agree on something! Hungry people get involved and smart! When they realize that they aren't the centers of their own universes, and that they can't eat their i-pods, they will likely wake up.

But it's not just the workers in trouble. The contractors are too. I think now is the time to forge solid relationships with BOTH, so that we can all lead this industry into the future.


----------



## Charlie K

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The IBEW (and every union) already found a middleground between it's members and contractors. Anyone wishing the IBEW "give" more is simply looking to tear down what took decades to achieve. So forgive my GFY attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now the public is seeing the result of reckless corporate ideals put to practice in real life. Now let them stew a little and wallow in their empty soup pots, let the depression happen. Would be the best thing to kickstart the American Labor Movement once again.


To back up what LGLS is saying go to ABC's website and look at the propaganda they have on there. Less is more, Prevailing wage should be abolished, lets classify helpers etc. If prevailing wage is abolished what will happen to ABC wages?. If you classify helpers what happens to the apprentice's.Helpers should be in the apprenticeship, they wont learn the trade being a helper on a large job. If you need a man on a large prevailing wage job to clean up and tote material get a laborer. I liked it when I worked non-union 30 years ago and the boss would say the union kicked his butt on bid day. I knew what we were making and what the union scales were. Greed kicked his butt, not the unions.

Charlie


----------



## boulengerina

Charlie K said:


> To back up what LGLS is saying go to ABC's website and look at the propaganda they have on there. Less is more, Prevailing wage should be abolished, lets classify helpers etc. If prevailing wage is abolished what will happen to ABC wages?. If you classify helpers what happens to the apprentice's.Helpers should be in the apprenticeship, they wont learn the trade being a helper on a large job. If you need a man on a large prevailing wage job to clean up and tote material get a laborer. I liked it when I worked non-union 30 years ago and the boss would say the union kicked his butt on bid day. I knew what we were making and what the union scales were. Greed kicked his butt, not the unions.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie, I agree with what you say in principle, but the problem with ALL helpers being apprentices is that they ALL become JW's when they graduate. Especially in the Southern states, this is poison. The signatory contractors here are facing a non-Union sect that works about 9 "helpers" for every JW. If we followed your plan, we could NOT COMPETE, and we would die out. 

I am in favor of what you say, but it just doesn't work. We have been trying to do it your way for the last umpteen years, and it has nearly killed us. The real problem is the state laws (or lack thereof) regarding licensing and registration, ratios, and mandatory indenturement. 

What many members of the IBEW do not understand is that the situation is different in almost every state, with the South being (until recently) the least competitive, meaning that our contractors are so overpriced, due to our old 3 JW's to 1 Apprentice ratio. The Locals here are too weak to change things politically, and the IO seems unwilling to assist in southern politics. Seriously, I know of construction Locals with Business Managers working for free, as there is no general fund. Some other Locals may have a paid Business Manager, but he is the secretary, the receptionist, the dispatcher, and the organizer. We need a plan that works, not passionate "Bring back the old days" orations that simply lead us down a path of destruction. 

The Local to which I belong uses the CW/CE Initiative program, and is now working more JW's than EVER before, and the market share is growing, despite the overwhelming lack of work. Non-Union shops are literally dropping like flies, and we are growing. I know that many of the older members of the IBEW consider this as some type of heresy, but if it puts more members to work, what's wrong with it? ALL of our apprentices now come from the pool of unindentured workers, so that we get to see them work, and get a feel for their level of maturity and ethics BEFORE we spend a ton of the JATC's money on training them. The result has been a more than 100% drop in attrition, and the local JATC's GPA has SKYROCKETED. This new batch of apprentices are the future foremen, that will work more unindentured members, from which we will find new apprentices, and so on. It seems to be working, despite all of the original skepticism (even mine). There have been some casualties, meaning people with the classification of JW, but lack the skills. Too bad. So sad. As one CE-3 puts it, "If you can't hack it, get your jacket!". The only JW's in any danger are the ones that are NOT real JW's. And face it guys, they are dragging us down. Total package here is around $30 an hour, and the non-Union is around $19. So I hope you can see the importance of these folks possessing the skills to back up their wages!

Another thing on the apprentices... We no longer use any form of an aptitude test. The BEST test is in the field. It is foolish to take a person who has tremendous aptitude, and poor ethics and a low level of professionalism. The CW/CE program has ELIMINATED THAT PROBLEM. Some of these guys apply and have to wait two years or more to get into the program, but they are working for a signatory contractor, and if they can keep their job for that period of time, they are likely to get in, and likely worth the money.

Here in the South (whether we like it or not), the typical ratio of 1 to 9 in the open shop is a reality. If anyone has any better ideas of how to overcome it, I would LOVE TO HEAR IT!


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> I can see why you guys give LGLS such a hard time... he says it has never occurred to me that I may be wrong! Wow... talk about the pot callin' the kettle black!
> 
> LGLS, I understand that you are an expert on all things now. I have seen the error of my ways. Thank you oh great one!:laughing:


Your opinion and vision are no more valid than mine. Truth is, there is no perfect answer. Like it or not, the goals of labor and the goals of management are polar opposites. Where the "fair middle ground" actually is will NEVER be to the 100% complete satisfaction of either party.


> I have never said that working people's interests need to move backwards, but it doesn't surprise me that you would interpret such. I went back to many of your posts, and it seems that you enjoy putting words into other people's mouths, and intentionally misinterpreting what they say. So your thoughts on all of this are par for the course, and after looking at your history, meaningless.


My feelings and opinions on these matters are fair and just. Maybe I'm just too radical for you. I understand this game, maybe too much for some. Maybe too much for you. Maybe too much for some signatory contractors. 

Simplified, when people get into the "game" of contracting, claiming they're taking RISK yet put their own intrests above all else, I find that to be the epitome of arrogance, to think and believe that an hourly wage earner should have to suffer for management's incompetance or mistakes. I know, S*&T flows downhill, but I do not and will not accept that. NOt if I can prevent it. Not if I can change it. 

Step 1 - Labor is compensated and works like gentlemen with dignity and pride.
Step 2- Management profits.
Step 3- Should circumstances warrant, it is management (profit) that suffers first before the "solution" is to screw labor out of what I feel is rightfully theirs. 

I've experienced every conceivable trick management heaps on labor in order to cover for their own incompetance. I'm sorry Mr. Project estimator you won't be getting that Christmas bonus because you underbid this job by 20%, but maybe if you did your job better and were really good at it, you wouldn't be in that pickle, but I refuse to crack whips on workers backs to cover for your mistakes so you can continue to relish in bonuses you didn't earn.

Were it up to me I'd fire you and ban you from the industry... But it's not up to me. 



> You seem to fundamentally believe in the same principles as I do, but your tactics are VERY different. A complicated contract does not serve the members of a Local Union any more or less than a simplified one. They both can (and should) do the exact same thing, but the complicated contracts DO SCARE NEW CONTRACTORS. The contractor that you site in your previous reply was in deep doo-doo, and had no choice but to seek our aid in bailing them out. And being "against the wall", they had no choice but to cooperate. But what I want is for a non-union contractor that is NOT IN TROUBLE, but healthy, and looking to improve, to go to my Local and sign a Letter of Assent because the IBEW actually offers a service to the contractor above and beyond manpower. We MUST offer more than manpower, otherwise the staffing agencies will eat ALL of out lunch, so to speak. We must be more than a high-paid staffing agency with a fancy training program, don't you agree? Or do you?


I thnk a better solution is a TEMPORARY letter of asscent. Let the nonunion contractor try us out. If a contract is too wordy and complicated, fine, streamline it but as long as "streamlining" is not code for degrading it from a member's point of view. 



> Should you decide to reply, LGLS, please consider that YOU may be wrong. You seem to think that the IBEW should continue to do business the same old way, or am I mistaken? I am trying to interpret your thoughts through your vague generalities, and I COULD BE WRONG! You tell me. I am at peace with that.:laughing:


I think you are wrong. I'm with you on eliminating the old guard slugs. I'm with you in many respects. But if unionizing in your mind results in anything close to the nonunion "anything goes" free-for-all that exists on the other side, count me out. 

We're better than them, always have been and always will be.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> Charlie, I agree with what you say in principle, but the problem with ALL helpers being apprentices is that they ALL become JW's when they graduate. Especially in the Southern states, this is poison. The signatory contractors here are facing a non-Union sect that works about 9 "helpers" for every JW. If we followed your plan, we could NOT COMPETE, and we would die out.
> 
> I am in favor of what you say, but it just doesn't work. We have been trying to do it your way for the last umpteen years, and it has nearly killed us. The real problem is the state laws (or lack thereof) regarding licensing and registration, ratios, and mandatory indenturement.
> 
> What many members of the IBEW do not understand is that the situation is different in almost every state, with the South being (until recently) the least competitive, meaning that our contractors are so overpriced, due to our old 3 JW's to 1 Apprentice ratio. The Locals here are too weak to change things politically, and the IO seems unwilling to assist in southern politics. Seriously, I know of construction Locals with Business Managers working for free, as there is no general fund. Some other Locals may have a paid Business Manager, but he is the secretary, the receptionist, the dispatcher, and the organizer. We need a plan that works, not passionate "Bring back the old days" orations that simply lead us down a path of destruction.
> 
> The Local to which I belong uses the CW/CE Initiative program, and is now working more JW's than EVER before, and the market share is growing, despite the overwhelming lack of work. Non-Union shops are literally dropping like flies, and we are growing. I know that many of the older members of the IBEW consider this as some type of heresy, but if it puts more members to work, what's wrong with it? ALL of our apprentices now come from the pool of unindentured workers, so that we get to see them work, and get a feel for their level of maturity and ethics BEFORE we spend a ton of the JATC's money on training them. The result has been a more than 100% drop in attrition, and the local JATC's GPA has SKYROCKETED. This new batch of apprentices are the future foremen, that will work more unindentured members, from which we will find new apprentices, and so on. It seems to be working, despite all of the original skepticism (even mine). There have been some casualties, meaning people with the classification of JW, but lack the skills. Too bad. So sad. As one CE-3 puts it, "If you can't hack it, get your jacket!". The only JW's in any danger are the ones that are NOT real JW's. And face it guys, they are dragging us down. Total package here is around $30 an hour, and the non-Union is around $19. So I hope you can see the importance of these folks possessing the skills to back up their wages!
> 
> Another thing on the apprentices... We no longer use any form of an aptitude test. The BEST test is in the field. It is foolish to take a person who has tremendous aptitude, and poor ethics and a low level of professionalism. The CW/CE program has ELIMINATED THAT PROBLEM. Some of these guys apply and have to wait two years or more to get into the program, but they are working for a signatory contractor, and if they can keep their job for that period of time, they are likely to get in, and likely worth the money.
> 
> Here in the South (whether we like it or not), the typical ratio of 1 to 9 in the open shop is a reality. If anyone has any better ideas of how to overcome it, I would LOVE TO HEAR IT!


Excellent post, and may I point this out whenever someone like Brian John says nonunion shops (certianly not his) don't really put 9 helpers and one quasi-electrician on a job?


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Excellent post, and may I point this out whenever someone like Brian John says nonunion shops (certianly not his) don't really put 9 helpers and one quasi-electrician on a job?


I thought Brian John had a Union shop? 

And to ANYONE who would deny that the 1 to 9 ratio exists en masse... come to NC or SC, and take a look around, and get ready for a paycut, whether you are an electrician OR a contractor. And I'm not talking about obscure "niches", but mainstream commercial construction. Here, it is a "race to the bottom", with many "contractors" working out of an 8'X10' storage shed behind their house. There is no zoning enforcement here, and most municipalities require only ONE licensed electrician per permit, regardless of the size of the job. So you can see the big problem!


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Excellent post, and may I point this out whenever someone like Brian John says nonunion shops (certianly not his) don't really put 9 helpers and one quasi-electrician on a job?



This is the typical model I have seen from every non-union shop.But yet everyone here disputes this.It was certainly the model when I worked non union the boss would have a fit if there was more then one "mechanic" on a job.Even when I organized the E.C claimed that all his employees were helpers except for one "mechanic". That means he had about 29 helpers and one electrician!:laughing::laughing::laughing:.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Your opinion and vision are no more valid than mine.
> 
> 
> Think so, huh?
> 
> 
> My feelings and opinions on these matters are fair and just. Maybe I'm just too radical for you. I understand this game, maybe too much for some. Maybe too much for you. Maybe too much for some signatory contractors.
> 
> 
> ALL RADICALS ARE TOO RADICAL FOR ME!!! But radicals are the minority....:whistling2: Sorry. I am helping radicals fade away. Don't come to NC.
> 
> 
> Simplified, when people get into the "game" of contracting, claiming they're taking RISK yet put their own intrests above all else, I find that to be the epitome of arrogance, to think and believe that an hourly wage earner should have to suffer for management's incompetance or mistakes. I know, S*&T flows downhill, but I do not and will not accept that. NOt if I can prevent it. Not if I can change it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, radicals are the minority, and can't do much other than harm to this organization. You can't change anything with a minority.
> 
> 
> I thnk a better solution is a TEMPORARY letter of assent. Let the nonunion contractor try us out. If a contract is too wordy and complicated, fine, streamline it but as long as "streamlining" is not code for degrading it from a member's point of view.
> 
> My Local uses the "30 day out" temporary letter as well, with TREMENDOUS SUCCESS.
> 
> I think you are wrong. I'm with you on eliminating the old guard slugs. I'm with you in many respects. But if unionizing in your mind results in anything close to the nonunion "anything goes" free-for-all that exists on the other side, count me out.
> 
> 
> Again, you are trying to put something into my mouth (hope it's just words:laughing:! i never said anything that even resembles this.:no: You just don't get it do you? I don't think that I am the first, second, third, fourth, or fifth person to say this to you, judging from your old posts. You don't get it so much, that you don't get that you don't get it!:laughing:
> 
> 
> We're better than them, always have been and always will be.


Better than whom, may I ask? Better than a non-Union electrician? If you believe this, then you are an elitist. If you think we are better than non-Union contractors, then you are not a realist. There is a reason that we are losing the battle, and elitist attitudes are a big part of it. If we are so damn good, then why are we facing irrelevance?

We need change, and we need it now. Some of us realize this.


----------



## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> I thought Brian John had a Union shop?
> 
> And to ANYONE who would deny that the 1 to 9 ratio exists en masse... come to NC or SC, and take a look around, and get ready for a paycut, whether you are an electrician OR a contractor. And I'm not talking about obscure "niches", but mainstream commercial construction. Here, it is a "race to the bottom", with many "contractors" working out of an 8'X10' storage shed behind their house. There is no zoning enforcement here, and most municipalities require only ONE licensed electrician per permit, regardless of the size of the job. So you can see the big problem!


No kidding,Here in Philadelphia it's only required for the E.C to be licensed,not the electricians.We have been fighting this for years,well we got close to getting the law past(that electricians need to be licensed)and the ABC and the IECA dropped the bank on lawyers to fight it.

But every time union and non union guys argue about training and qualifications the non union are quick to hold up there license and say well"I'm licensed"!


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> I thought Brian John had a Union shop?
> 
> And to ANYONE who would deny that the 1 to 9 ratio exists en masse... come to NC or SC, and take a look around, and get ready for a paycut, whether you are an electrician OR a contractor. And I'm not talking about obscure "niches", but mainstream commercial construction. Here, it is a "race to the bottom", with many "contractors" working out of an 8'X10' storage shed behind their house. There is no zoning enforcement here, and most municipalities require only ONE licensed electrician per permit, regardless of the size of the job. So you can see the big problem!


You and I would really, IRL, become great friends!


----------



## Charlie K

Maryland has a 1 apprentice to 1 JW ratio. It is policed rather well now that the State has funded positions. Our Labor enforcement division was basically one man for the entire State. Our local has a state of the art training center. Our apprentices receive hands on conduit bending, cable splicing, fire alarm, motor control, plc, instrumentation, photo voltaics etc.
I can see the difference in the apprentices that are topping out. Our guys go one full day every other week for the first 21/2 years. They get a stipend for going to class. The second 21/2 years they go in the evenings.

Charlie


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> No kidding,Here in Philadelphia it's only required for the E.C to be licensed,not the electricians.We have been fighting this for years,well we got close to getting the law past(that electricians need to be licensed)and the ABC and the IECA dropped the bank on lawyers to fight it.
> 
> But every time union and non union guys argue about training and qualifications the non union are quick to hold up there license and say well"I'm licensed"!


This is all too evident in EVERYTHING electrical I see in Pa. Despite all of it's natural beauty, it's like the land that time (and the NEC) forgot.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You and I would really, IRL, become great friends!


I certainly enjoy the debate:thumbsup:!


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all too evident in EVERYTHING electrical I see in Pa. Despite all of it's natural beauty, it's like the land that time (and the NEC) forgot.


Ouch!


----------



## LGLS

Charlie K said:


> Maryland has a 1 apprentice to 1 JW ratio. It is policed rather well now that the State has funded positions. Our Labor enforcement division was basically one man for the entire State. Our local has a state of the art training center. Our apprentices receive hands on conduit bending, cable splicing, fire alarm, motor control, plc, instrumentation, photo voltaics etc.
> I can see the difference in the apprentices that are topping out. Our guys go one full day every other week for the first 21/2 years. They get a stipend for going to class. The second 21/2 years they go in the evenings.
> 
> Charlie


 
Not good enough. 1-to-1 means the State is assuming every 5 years an apprentice tops out and an JW retires. Unrealistic when you consider an apprentice is so for 5 years, a JW is a JW for 35.

All ratios should be 6 JW to 1 apprentice otherwise they're B.S.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all too evident in EVERYTHING electrical I see in Pa. Despite all of it's natural beauty, it's like the land that time (and the NEC) forgot.


Hopefully things start to change we(local98) just had a major court decision on the state level(I won't get into it yet)That's a major victory for OUR standards.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> All ratios should be 6 JW to 1 apprentice otherwise they're B.S.


So long as it's legal AND enforced, I would love to see it!


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> We? You ain't no contractor, unless you count side-work.


You are right, I am not a contractor but I do have to deal with the union BS. I also do not do side jobs, I earn enough on my regular job. :thumbsup:



> The contractor calls you one of his ladies, if you know what I mean, out working the corner.





jrannis said:


> I think we have finally found the root of Bob's self esteem problem
> And,
> We know they don't let him out of the office to work in the field due to the amount of time he has to troll the union topic site.


Ever notice when people can not depute the message they attack the messenger? Keep it up, it just means you guys cannot figure out a real thing to say.:laughing:

By the way I did 10 hrs in the office yesterday then 10 hrs overnight in the field, you would be better off not talking about what you do not know. 




> Ever notice how
> Not one post can go up with out a silly anti-union comment.:yawn:


Hey you know what, touch chit, deal with it. I have no choice but to deal with union BS brought to the jobs we work on. So if I can irritate you a bit then it makes me smile. 




> I think he must be like Cliff the mailman that used to roost at the bar in the Cheers sit com.:shutup:


Again making it personal because you can't figure out how to deal with me any other way. :no:


----------



## JayH

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not good enough. 1-to-1 means the State is assuming every 5 years an apprentice tops out and an JW retires. Unrealistic when you consider an apprentice is so for 5 years, a JW is a JW for 35.
> 
> All ratios should be *6 JW to 1 apprentice* otherwise they're B.S.


That's a sure fire formula to push the burden of the contractors I work for completely out of the non-competitive range.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> All ratios should be 6 JW to 1 apprentice otherwise they're B.S.


That is nuts, it really is. It would also keep out a ton of apprentices.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> All ratios should be 6 JW to 1 apprentice otherwise they're B.S.


I think LGLS is referring to a "perfect world". At least I hope so.

If this were mandated nationally, it would screw up our industry overnight, but it would be, in the long run, a very beneficial thing, however unpractical. Beneficial in the quality of installation, beneficial for the middle class, and beneficial for those that truly do plan on making a career out of this industry (such as myself). 

Wages would indeed skyrocket, but so would the cost of construction. At some point, this great nation will hit the ceiling, much the same as Europe already has. It would slow growth, and likely reduce the number of workers in the electrical construction industry DRASTICALLY. But wages would go up.


----------



## william1978

Black4Truck said:


> We also like digging holes in the dirt to bury 6X6 PVC boxes :whistling2:


 :laughing::laughing:


----------



## PECGeorge

*I don't think it can.*

I was an electrical union member and an electrical union contractor in the 90s. It was the worst thing I have ever experienced. As a member, I found 60% of the work force was lazy and non-motivated. They didn't care about the customer or the contractor - they were just collecting a paycheck they didn't deserve. I was actually punished by my foreman for working too productively. I was working above the daily quota. That is ridiculous - I wasn't blazing - just working steady. This seemed to be the accepted norm.

As a contractor, I would get guys from the hall and they were the whiniest, laziest, problematic people I have ever worked with. I had two guys refuse to change the ballasts out on a retrofit job because there was a couple of empty containers under the light fixtures (the containers weighed about 8 lbs. each). They said it was not in their job description as an inside journeyman. Needless to say, I laid them off. They complained and tried to get the steward to make me rehire them. 

Many more stories about laziness, but I think you get the picture. 

I think the union has too many "thug tactics" surrounding it. It has the same reputation as the dirty politicians in the gov't. You have a GIANT hill to climb, trying to change the persona surrounding unions in general.

Good luck with your endeavor.


----------



## Charlie K

PECGeorge said:


> I was an electrical union member and an electrical union contractor in the 90s. It was the worst thing I have ever experienced. As a member, I found 60% of the work force was lazy and non-motivated. They didn't care about the customer or the contractor - they were just collecting a paycheck they didn't deserve. I was actually punished by my foreman for working too productively. I was working above the daily quota. That is ridiculous - I wasn't blazing - just working steady. This seemed to be the accepted norm.
> 
> As a contractor, I would get guys from the hall and they were the whiniest, laziest, problematic people I have ever worked with. I had two guys refuse to change the ballasts out on a retrofit job because there was a couple of empty containers under the light fixtures (the containers weighed about 8 lbs. each). They said it was not in their job description as an inside journeyman. Needless to say, I laid them off. They complained and tried to get the steward to make me rehire them.
> 
> Many more stories about laziness, but I think you get the picture.
> 
> I think the union has too many "thug tactics" surrounding it. It has the same reputation as the dirty politicians in the gov't. You have a GIANT hill to climb, trying to change the persona surrounding unions in general.
> 
> Good luck with your endeavor.


George, I am not calling you out but after seeing your post in General Electrcal Discussion you are pegging the Bull**** meter.

Charlie


----------



## Speedy Petey

Charlie K said:


> George, I am not calling you out but after seeing your post in General Electrcal Discussion you are pegging the Bull**** meter.


I have been trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I have to say, stories like George's here are not all that uncommon.


----------



## PECGeorge

Let me guess Charlie K - I bet you are a union man....


----------



## Bob Badger

Speedy Petey said:


> I have to say, stories like George's here are not all that uncommon.



I agree and it is what I have seen as well.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



PECGeorge said:


> Let me guess Charlie K - I bet you are a union man....


What are you doing these days?


----------



## PECGeorge

I am still an electrical contractor - making money. Taking care of my customers and my employees.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



PECGeorge said:


> I am still an electrical contractor - making money. Taking care of my customers and my employees.


That is great for you. Is there a lot of work in Pa.?


----------



## PECGeorge

I have a handful of loyal customers - been a contractor for 18 years. Work has slowed but still there (so far). How about you?


----------



## RyanB

PECGeorge said:


> I had two guys refuse to change the ballasts out on a retrofit job because there was a couple of empty containers under the light fixtures (the containers weighed about 8 lbs. each).


I guess when two IBEW members and I were lifting and moving 270 pound barrels of scrap wire two weeks ago we were doing it wrong. Little did we know that 8 pounds was the limit. 

How much does a bundle of ten 1" conduit weigh George? Should I have refused to carry dozens of bundles up the stairs?


----------



## PECGeorge

I think you should do whatever it takes to get the job done right and safe. Only you can decide what that entails.


----------



## PECGeorge

How much does a bundle of ten 1" conduit weigh George? Should I have refused to carry dozens of bundles up the stairs? 

Was the conduit thinwall or RCG??


----------



## RyanB

PECGeorge said:


> How much does a bundle of ten 1" conduit weigh George? Should I have refused to carry dozens of bundles up the stairs?
> 
> Was the conduit thinwall or RCG??


George, you're a funny guy!


----------



## PECGeorge

Thanx...


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



PECGeorge said:


> I have a handful of loyal customers - been a contractor for 18 years. Work has slowed but still there (so far). How about you?


I'm good. I am no longer a contractor but heavily into the industry from the maintenance standpoint. Just trying to get along with people and offer any help that I can...But, mostly, I am learning...still.


----------



## PECGeorge

Riveter - I'm glad to hear you are working - I know alot of people that are not, I hope everything stays steady for you.


----------



## Charlie K

PECGeorge said:


> Let me guess Charlie K - I bet you are a union man....


Well yes sir I am. 

Charlie


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



PECGeorge said:


> Riveter - I'm glad to hear you are working - I know alot of people that are not, I hope everything stays steady for you.


Near as I can tell it will last as long as I need it to for myself. I feel really bad about all the rest who are stressing out about the way things are going... and lack of work. Posting on a site such as this one gives people an outlet. They share ideas and possibly learn what they may be doing wrong... or... just not quite as right. If you have been a contractor for 18 years and are successful at it, we'll fire some questions at you, and you do the same. We are all brothers and sisters on this site and sometimes it really shows.


----------



## Speedy Petey

RyanB said:


> I guess when two IBEW members and I were lifting and moving 270 pound barrels of scrap wire two weeks ago we were doing it wrong. Little did we know that 8 pounds was the limit.
> 
> How much does a bundle of ten 1" conduit weigh George? Should I have refused to carry dozens of bundles up the stairs?


I think you missed the point, unless you are being facetious. 

The point was not the weight, it was that the containers were someone else's. I heard a first hand story once where a newbie local member moved a scrap piece of sheetrock a couple of feet (a piece, not a whole board) so he could get to the box that was behind it to install a device. He was summarily reprimanded for moving "someone else's material. He should have called and waited for the rocker to come and move the piece.

He was told he would not be "fined" this time because he was so new, but if it happend again he could get fined and/or fired. 
If it was me I would have done this: :laughing:.


----------



## PECGeorge

Charlie K said:


> Well yes sir I am.
> 
> Charlie


I figured, most union guys have the reaction you had to my post. I know some really good union electricians - but I have experienced many bad ones. Especially in Baltimore (Local 24). 

Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just speaking my piece.

Anytime you put politics in front of the job - you will always get a bad end result.


----------



## PECGeorge

SpeedyPete, I believe they were being facetious. 

There was one time I enjoyed my union job. We were working outside and we were not allowed to dig and find our previously laid wiring - we had to observe the laborers from the laborers union dig by hand (about 6 feet down by 10 feet square) and we would pull the cabling up and set our junction boxes. I loved that job - hours and hours of overtime without having to "labor".


----------



## Frasbee

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all too evident in EVERYTHING electrical I see in Pa. Despite all of it's natural beauty, it's like the land that time (and the NEC) forgot.


You haven't been to New Orleans.


----------



## SGC622

PECGeorge said:


> How much does a bundle of ten 1" conduit weigh George? Should I have refused to carry dozens of bundles up the stairs?
> 
> Was the conduit thinwall or RCG??


A little useless info:

It would be thinwall

1" Rigid doesn't come in 10 stick bundles. i believe it comes in 5 stick bundles

that could be a trade trick question. lol see who catches it


----------



## PECGeorge

SGC622 said:


> A little useless info:
> 
> It would be thinwall
> 
> 1" Rigid doesn't come in 10 stick bundles. i believe it comes in 5 stick bundles
> 
> that could be a trade trick question. lol see who catches it


I was just having fun... I'm guessing he was messing around too.


----------



## PECGeorge

Frasbee said:


> You haven't been to New Orleans.


I will say, I have been to both, and the NEC definitely is not on the top of their priority list. Thank God I was licensed in Maryland - they have a pretty good grasp on enforcing code.


----------



## RyanB

Speedy Petey said:


> The point was not the weight, it was that the containers were someone else's. I heard a first hand story once where a newbie local member moved a scrap piece of sheetrock a couple of feet (a piece, not a whole board) so he could get to the box that was behind it to install a device. He was summarily reprimanded for moving "someone else's material. He should have called and waited for the rocker to come and move the piece.


On any construction site we have to move ceiling tiles, sheetrock, pipes, insulation, wood, t-bar, wire, etc. It would be impossible for any trade to do any work without moving materials.

OMG YOU TOUCHED SOME SHEETROCK YOU ARE FIRED WE IS THE UNION!

You guys have really jumped the shark with your stories. :laughing:


----------



## oldman

RyanB said:


> On any construction site we have to move ceiling tiles, sheetrock, pipes, insulation, wood, t-bar, wire, etc. It would be impossible for any trade to do any work without moving materials.
> 
> OMG YOU TOUCHED SOME SHEETROCK YOU ARE FIRED WE IS THE UNION!
> 
> You guys have really jumped the shark with your stories. :laughing:


pre-apprenticeship...yep, you got all the answers...


----------



## RyanB

oldman said:


> pre-apprenticeship...yep, you got all the answers...


The answer to the question "Can I move materials blocking my work?" is YES! :laughing:


----------



## oldman

RyanB said:


> The answer to the question "Can I move materials blocking my work?" is YES! :laughing:


actually, the answer is "it depends"...on who is running the job and what the politics of that job are...

you may have been able to so far, that doesn't mean that it's accepted across the board...


----------



## LGLS

JayH said:


> That's a sure fire formula to push the burden of the contractors I work for completely out of the non-competitive range.


How so? The ratio would apply to all.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> That is nuts, it really is. It would also keep out a ton of apprentices.


The heck you say. It would keep the contractors from flooding the industry with tons of electricians with nowhere to go but into business for themselves. Then they become competition. This is most evident in residential- the beginners market - and look how pathetic that situation has become. Look how many small contractors "specialize" in residential and small commercial, have never been on a 6 figure job.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> I think LGLS is referring to a "perfect world". At least I hope so.
> 
> If this were mandated nationally, it would screw up our industry overnight, but it would be, in the long run, a very beneficial thing, however unpractical. Beneficial in the quality of installation, beneficial for the middle class, and beneficial for those that truly do plan on making a career out of this industry (such as myself).
> 
> Wages would indeed skyrocket, but so would the cost of construction. At some point, this great nation will hit the ceiling, much the same as Europe already has. It would slow growth, and likely reduce the number of workers in the electrical construction industry DRASTICALLY. But wages would go up.


Tough! Right now thecost of construction
labor is already too low compared to the value of what's constructed! $700.000.00 houses built and wired by $8.00 an hour electricians?? Your logic is like it's bad to have an import duty because Walmart won't sell as much.

Some people have a hard time believing that it's possible for our economy to work WITHOUT exploiting others. Why is that?


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> I am still an electrical contractor - making money. Taking care of my customers and my employees.




Correction, the employees are taking care of you.


----------



## Bob Badger

RyanB said:


> On any construction site we have to move ceiling tiles, sheetrock, pipes, insulation, wood, t-bar, wire, etc. It would be impossible for any trade to do any work without moving materials.
> 
> OMG YOU TOUCHED SOME SHEETROCK YOU ARE FIRED WE IS THE UNION!
> 
> You guys have really jumped the shark with your stories. :laughing:


No they have not.

*YOU* have to remember that each area is different.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Correction, the employees are taking care of you.


Someone wired your brain in reverse polarity. You look at almost every thing backwards.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No they have not.
> 
> *YOU* have to remember that each area is different.


There is nothing preventing any construction worker from moving anything out of the way that impedes their work, no matter which trade it belongs to. 

And there's no such thing as "fines" even if you do break some rule. That's all nonunion (badger) B.S.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Someone wired your brain in reverse polarity. You look at almost every thing backwards.


 
So Bob, the conductor plays the symphony?


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> You are right, I am not a contractor but I do have to deal with the union BS. I also do not do side jobs, I earn enough on my regular job. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever notice when people can not depute the message they attack the messenger? Keep it up, it just means you guys cannot figure out a real thing to say.:laughing:
> 
> By the way I did 10 hrs in the office yesterday then 10 hrs overnight in the field, and 20 hours playing on the internet. You would be better off knot talking about what you do not no.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Hey you know what, touch chit, deal with it. I have no choice but to deal with union BS brought to the jobs we work on. So if I can irritate you a bit then it makes me smile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again making it personal because you can't figure out how to deal with me any other way. :no:


OH Bob...................


----------



## SGC622

PECGeorge said:


> I was just having fun... I'm guessing he was messing around too.


oh i know i was too


----------



## boulengerina

RIVETER said:


> We are all brothers and sisters on this site and sometimes it really shows.


Amen, bro. I really appreciate your attitude!


----------



## SGC622

RyanB said:


> On any construction site we have to move ceiling tiles, sheetrock, pipes, insulation, wood, t-bar, wire, etc. It would be impossible for any trade to do any work without moving materials.
> 
> OMG YOU TOUCHED SOME SHEETROCK YOU ARE FIRED WE IS THE UNION!
> 
> You guys have really jumped the shark with your stories. :laughing:


those stories are not exaggerated, my experiences with this are mostly with union carpenters. thank god i shot the sh*t with their foreman cause he used to go around tearing everyone a new A-hole for moving his sheetrock, he'd just bust my balls but i would usually say hey if you dont get a guy down here soon i got work to do i'll move it. so he'd either do it or say F it go ahead. Even fellow brothers did it, like in the situation with the containers, but thats a little stupid, i dont doubt it happened at all, i just think the journeymen that did that are rediculous.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Tough! Right now thecost of construction
> labor is already too low compared to the value of what's constructed! $700.000.00 houses built and wired by $8.00 an hour electricians?? Your logic is like it's bad to have an import duty because Walmart won't sell as much.
> 
> Some people have a hard time believing that it's possible for our economy to work WITHOUT exploiting others. Why is that?


No, my logic is that no such law will EVER be passed in our lifetimes. And I hope I am wrong about this, but I doubt it. It won't stop me from pushing for it, though. On some level, even I am an idealist. But mostly a pragmatist. I think you are the opposite, no?

Again, I agree with you in principle. I just don't see how it could happen. No doubt, it would come from a push by Organized Labor, but we aren't as powerful as Fux News would make us out to be!


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> OH Bob...................


Well played, next time just say 'I know you are but what am I'.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So Bob, the conductor plays the symphony?


Nope, but WTF are you talking about?


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Right now thecost of construction
> labor is already too low compared to the value of what's constructed!


 


If you know this, why would you want to be a construction laborer?

You gotta be kinda stupid to be in that field, don't ya think?


----------



## BDB

PECGeorge said:


> As a contractor, I would get guys from the hall and they were the whiniest, laziest, problematic people I have ever worked with. I had two guys refuse to change the ballasts out on a retrofit job because there was a couple of empty containers under the light fixtures (the containers weighed about 8 lbs. each). They said it was not in their job description as an inside journeyman. Needless to say, I laid them off. They complained and tried to get the steward to make me rehire them.
> 
> Many more stories about laziness, but I think you get the picture.
> 
> 
> Good luck with your endeavor.


 I do not doubt this happen for a minute. I was doing a job and we had about 30 JW/App on the job. I had two guys take one of my calls (they were working buddies)I had them running some 2 1/2" EMT, when they finished that I had about 20' of 1/2" EMT to run in a small Comm room, So I took one of the guys(will call him "guy1") and showed him what I needed and took the other guy(call him "guy2") in to start trimming out some rooms. I got word that guy2 was pissed, so I went to find out why. He was pissed because I split the two from working together (for a short time) and he was in the A/C part and his working buddy was in the small Comm non A/C room. He told me they were working/traveling buddies and they work together. So I told him that guy1 had only 20' of conduit to run and then he would be brought in to trim out also, and I told him 1. there was not enough room in the comm room for both guys and 2. It does not take two JW to run 1/2" EMT. 30 minutes later they said if they could not work together then they would drag up, which in return I told them, drag up or get fired It did not matter which one they did. 
This is one of my biggest problems with the Union. seems like no one can work alone any more, seems everyone is getting lazy and spoiled.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Tough! Right now thecost of construction
> labor is already too low compared to the value of what's constructed!


Let's take that one to its logical conclusion. Let's scale it up. Take a high rise building in NYC with a finished value of $1 billion. What should the workers building it make? $1000 an hour? $2000 an hour? $500?


----------



## PECGeorge

In reply to the workers are taking care of me, to a point yes. But you are missing the point. I make enough money and am fair enough to pay my employees above the norm - thus taking care of them. You union guys forget one of the main reasons unions were introduced were to fight for the working guy who was getting screwed and taken advantage of by their employer. There are still alot of us "non union" employers out there that care for our employees and treat them very well - because it is only right to make sure those that help you - get rewarded.


----------



## 10492

Peter D said:


> Let's take that one to its logical conclusion. Let's scale it up. Take a high rise building in NYC with a finished value of $1 billion. What should the workers building it make? $1000 an hour? $2000 an hour? $500?


His response should be a doozy.


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



PECGeorge said:


> In reply to the workers are taking care of me, to a point yes. But you are missing the point. I make enough money and am fair enough to pay my employees above the norm - thus taking care of them. You union guys forget one of the main reasons unions were introduced were to fight for the working guy who was getting screwed and taken advantage of by their employer. There are still alot of us "non union" employers out there that care for our employees and treat them very well - because it is only right to make sure those that help you - get rewarded.


That is great. How much do you pay them an hour?


----------



## PECGeorge

On average 28 per hour plus benefits package - paid holidays - sick time - 2 week vacation.....


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Let's take that one to its logical conclusion. Let's scale it up. Take a high rise building in NYC with a finished value of $1 billion. What should the workers building it make? $1000 an hour? $2000 an hour? $500?


I have a more logical conclusion - the workers should be paid a living wage (hence the many local living wage laws that trump the Federal and State min. wage laws.)


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> In reply to the workers are taking care of me, to a point yes. But you are missing the point. I make enough money and am fair enough to pay my employees above the norm - thus taking care of them. You union guys forget one of the main reasons unions were introduced were to fight for the working guy who was getting screwed and taken advantage of by their employer. There are still alot of us "non union" employers out there that care for our employees and treat them very well - because it is only right to make sure those that help you - get rewarded.


Some business owners recognize the value and the rewards that come from a well compensated workforce. It also frees your time to find and bid more work, by eliminating a lot of what occurs when you have to babysit, as better wages tends to attract the cream of the crop, and you're paying to be choosy.

Add to that workers tend to become more dignified when they're paid well. But there are other business models and I'm telling you that for every employer like you there are a dozen whose life work is to pay the least amount possible. See the thread about Mexicans running amok?


----------



## SGC622

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Some business owners recognize the value and the rewards that come from a well compensated workforce. It also frees your time to find and bid more work, by eliminating a lot of what occurs when you have to babysit, as better wages tends to attract the cream of the crop, and you're paying to be choosy.
> 
> Add to that workers tend to become more dignified when they're paid well. But there are other business models and I'm telling you that for every employer like you there are a dozen whose life work is to pay the least amount possible. See the thread about Mexicans running amok?


I hear what your saying "Workers tend to become more dignified when they're paid well." does that mean that union members are more dignified or at least should be? I hate to say it but i think there needs to be some variable in our pay. i believe alot of the union image of laziness comes from the fact that the union took the fear out of us. why not put it back to some extent, i love what we have and how it is, but i cant help but get aggravated when i see some electrician doing something stupid and im busting my ass and we are getting the same pay especially if he is an A-hole. i dont say lower our pay rate, but from here why not have individual raises. sound good? but at each contract renewal the union submits a minumum pay and the contractors have to go from there.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I have a more logical conclusion - the workers should be paid a living wage (hence the many local living wage laws that trump the Federal and State min. wage laws.)


Now you're backpedaling.


----------



## oldman

Lgls - that's the truth. You've changed my mind. 

Now, if you could only convince the rest of the IBEW membersip to do what they are paid for. Life would be pefect. Thanks.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Lgls - that's the truth. You've changed my mind.
> 
> Now, if you could only convince the rest of the IBEW membersip to do what they are paid for. Life would be pefect. Thanks.


Oldman, it's a 3-pronged effort.

True story, JUST happened: (not electricians, but represented under our CBA) but 2 laborers got caught (ON CAMERA) stealing city equipment and mongo...

Got ROW'D because the company super doesn't want the "headaches." Now these 2 scoundrels will be referred out to work the same as if I got ROW'd... instead of thrown OUT of the local where they belong.

...soon some unknowing contractor will inherit these 2, or 1 of them. DON'T BLAME THE IBEW.


----------



## boulengerina

BDB said:


> I do not doubt this happen for a minute. I was doing a job and we had about 30 JW/App on the job. I had two guys take one of my calls (they were working buddies)I had them running some 2 1/2" EMT, when they finished that I had about 20' of 1/2" EMT to run in a small Comm room, So I took one of the guys(will call him "guy1") and showed him what I needed and took the other guy(call him "guy2") in to start trimming out some rooms. I got word that guy2 was pissed, so I went to find out why. He was pissed because I split the two from working together (for a short time) and he was in the A/C part and his working buddy was in the small Comm non A/C room. He told me they were working/traveling buddies and they work together. So I told him that guy1 had only 20' of conduit to run and then he would be brought in to trim out also, and I told him 1. there was not enough room in the comm room for both guys and 2. It does not take two JW to run 1/2" EMT. 30 minutes later they said if they could not work together then they would drag up, which in return I told them, drag up or get fired It did not matter which one they did.
> This is one of my biggest problems with the Union. seems like no one can work alone any more, seems everyone is getting lazy and spoiled.


Sorry for your experience, and I assure you that we are not ALL lazy or spoiled. Most of these problems seem to be regional, as here in the South, we have to bust our collective @$$es to get work and keep customers. There is no room for guys 1 or 2, and their entitlement issues here in NC:no:. I pay my dues twice a year, and love my Local. I love the IBEW. And I would kick those guys off my job at the first show of insubordination. We get our "verbal warnings" the day we are hired here. And the Local will not hammer a contractor for firing a guy that deserves it, even on the first offense.

I assure you that this, however typical for your region, is not the case in most places. I know it goes on, as I travel frequently myself, and it makes me as sick (or even sicker) as any contractor. I, as a member of the IBEW, have taken some ownership of my Union, as I believe that all members should, and that type of behavior is what creates the stigma associated with our organization. 

Most of the issues brought to light in this post stem from what I have called an "entitlement attitude". As members, we are entitled to the wages and conditions of the CBA. That's it! Anything else is OVER THE LINE! The International President is NOT the IBEW. We, the members, are. And this is our organization to save or ruin... the choice is ours. Unfortunately, many brothers, like the ones you describe, are only out for themselves and they forget that it's more than just their jobs on the line, when in fact, ALL MEMBERS' JOBS ARE ON THE LINE.


----------



## boulengerina

PECGeorge said:


> In reply to the workers are taking care of me, to a point yes. But you are missing the point. I make enough money and am fair enough to pay my employees above the norm - thus taking care of them. You union guys forget one of the main reasons unions were introduced were to fight for the working guy who was getting screwed and taken advantage of by their employer. There are still alot of us "non union" employers out there that care for our employees and treat them very well - because it is only right to make sure those that help you - get rewarded.


I think you are the one missing the point... You DON'T make money... Your employees DO. You find the work, and that's your job. But finding work doesn't pay any bills. The money you make on a job is generated from the sweat and (hopefully not too much) blood of your employees. I think that is the point, and that is reality. Union or not, the employees are the ones paying for your lifestyle.


----------



## boulengerina

SGC622 said:


> I hear what your saying "Workers tend to become more dignified when they're paid well." does that mean that union members are more dignified or at least should be? I hate to say it but i think there needs to be some variable in our pay. i believe alot of the union image of laziness comes from the fact that the union took the fear out of us. why not put it back to some extent, i love what we have and how it is, but i cant help but get aggravated when i see some electrician doing something stupid and im busting my ass and we are getting the same pay especially if he is an A-hole. i dont say lower our pay rate, but from here why not have individual raises. sound good? but at each contract renewal the union submits a minumum pay and the contractors have to go from there.


All Union wage and benefit packages are "bottom ended", meaning that the employer can not pay you less than your classification calls for, but they can ALWAYS pay you more. It is already this way. Individual raises happen every day.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Oldman, it's a 3-pronged effort.
> 
> True story, JUST happened: (not electricians, but represented under our CBA) but 2 laborers got caught (ON CAMERA) stealing city equipment and mongo...
> 
> Got ROW'D because the company super doesn't want the "headaches." Now these 2 scoundrels will be referred out to work the same as if I got ROW'd... instead of thrown OUT of the local where they belong.
> 
> ...soon some unknowing contractor will inherit these 2, or 1 of them. DON'T BLAME THE IBEW.


Welllllll..... We (the IBEW) haven't exactly supported the firing of members (even for just cause) as much in the past as we do now. 

I am not saying that it's our fault, but what I am saying is that there is plenty of blame to go around.


----------



## SGC622

can someone explain this for me. My father is a letter carrier and he is in a union, him and this woman got into a confrontation where the woman claims he hit her(which it was proven he didnt) and she hit him back which everyone saw and got all in his face and he just stepped back and did nothing. so the postal police came and the union got involved.
the postal polices investigation ended up proving my dad was right and the woman got suspended for a while. but the union gave my dad an alternative which was to say "i forget what happened" and that would make it so they both got suspended for 1 or 2 weeks. why would they make him suffer when he was right?


----------



## JayH

SGC622 said:


> can someone explain this for me. My father is a letter carrier and he is in a union, him and this woman got into a confrontation where the woman claims he hit her(which it was proven he didnt) and she hit him back which everyone saw and got all in his face and he just stepped back and did nothing. so the postal police came and the union got involved.
> the postal polices investigation ended up proving my dad was right and the woman got suspended for a while. but the union gave my dad an alternative which was to say "i forget what happened" and that would make it so they both got suspended for 1 or 2 weeks. why would they make him suffer when he was right?


There are probably more facts involved in this case than cited in your short post.


----------



## boulengerina

SGC622 said:


> can someone explain this for me. My father is a letter carrier and he is in a union, him and this woman got into a confrontation where the woman claims he hit her(which it was proven he didnt) and she hit him back which everyone saw and got all in his face and he just stepped back and did nothing. so the postal police came and the union got involved.
> the postal polices investigation ended up proving my dad was right and the woman got suspended for a while. but the union gave my dad an alternative which was to say "i forget what happened" and that would make it so they both got suspended for 1 or 2 weeks. why would they make him suffer when he was right?


Can't speak for Government Unions... Personally not a big fan, and don't understand their methodology!


----------



## amptech

boulengerina said:


> I think you are the one missing the point... You DON'T make money... Your employees DO. You find the work, and that's your job. But finding work doesn't pay any bills. The money you make on a job is generated from the sweat and (hopefully not too much) blood of your employees. I think that is the point, and that is reality. Union or not, the employees are the ones paying for your lifestyle.


 This mindset is the root of all of the problems. It sits right along side the thinking by employers that THEY make the money through their business management and the employees are the ones along for the ride. Both sides are wrong! 
When LGLS says, "so what if a contractor goes belly-up? Another one will take his place. The work is always there no matter who the contractor is". The Jerks on the other side of this argument are saying the same thing about labor. "There are hundreds of people out there looking for a job." 
The truth is the relationship is interdependent. One can't profit without the other. At least not for long.


----------



## PECGeorge

amptech said:


> This mindset is the root of all of the problems. It sits right along side the thinking by employers that THEY make the money through their business management and the employees are the ones along for the ride. Both sides are wrong!
> When LGLS says, "so what if a contractor goes belly-up? Another one will take his place. The work is always there no matter who the contractor is". The Jerks on the other side of this argument are saying the same thing about labor. "There are hundreds of people out there looking for a job."
> The truth is the relationship is interdependent. One can't profit without the other. At least not for long.


AMEN brother.


----------



## PECGeorge

boulengerina said:


> I think you are the one missing the point... You DON'T make money... Your employees DO. You find the work, and that's your job. But finding work doesn't pay any bills. The money you make on a job is generated from the sweat and (hopefully not too much) blood of your employees. I think that is the point, and that is reality. Union or not, the employees are the ones paying for your lifestyle.


I'm not missing the point at all. I can easily make enough money working for myself and maintain my lifestyle. I choose to deal with larger overhead and employ great guys. If all of my guys left tomorrow, I would still be making the same income or more. I chose to pay my guys well and treat them well and it is reciprocated - it is a mutual "thang"... 

The big difference is I can let the non-productive, lazy ones go without going through a bunch of crap. That is the freedom of having your own company in the good ole USA.


----------



## brian john

Something to consider with the LGLS approach, "so what if they go bankrupt" is, if builders, developers and businessmen know this attitude exist and feel the workers are less than productive because of this short sighted attitude, they may move their business to a more productive Right To Work State.


----------



## PECGeorge

brian john said:


> Something to consider with the LGLS approach, "so what if they go bankrupt" is, if builders, developers and businessmen know this attitude exist and feel the workers are less than productive because of this short sighted attitude, they may move their business to a more productive Right To Work State.


I think ALL states should be right to work - no one should be able to tell you who can and can't do the job.


----------



## miller_elex

PECGeorge said:


> I think ALL states should be right to work.


Keep your a55 in your state, and I will stay in mine.


----------



## JayH

miller_elex said:


> Keep your a55 in your state, and I will stay in mine.


Yes, please listen to Miller. 

We have enough problems in California without making it a right to starve state.


----------



## PECGeorge

JayH said:


> Yes, please listen to Miller.
> 
> We have enough problems in California without making it a right to starve state.


Why do you think you're having so many problems in California??


----------



## JayH

PECGeorge said:


> Why do you think you're having so many problems in California??


I'm assuming that is a sarcastic rhetorical response.

If not, open a thread in off-topic and I'll be happy to provide you with a list of the multitude of disfunctional entities in our beautiful state.


----------



## oldman

Down with the prolatariat.


----------



## william1978

PECGeorge said:


> I think ALL states should be right to work -


 :no::no: I think N.C. being a right to work state is killing the payscale.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



william1978 said:


> :no::no: I think N.C. being a right to work state is killing the payscale.


In N.C. don't people in the workplace have the ability to form, or join a union if the majority of the workers want to? Am I being naive?


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Something to consider with the LGLS approach, "so what if they go bankrupt" is, if builders, developers and businessmen know this attitude exist and feel the workers are less than productive because of this short sighted attitude, they may move their business to a more productive Right To Work State.




And then what? Sell the services or goods to all the hillbillys living in right-to-work trailer parks?

What's funny hee are all the posts about how GCs are tearing into your bids, and the general concensus is don't work if there's no money in it... Heaven forbid an employee takes that same attitude though...


----------



## RUSSIAN

And how much are the wages in texas? or any other right to work state?
The CE/CW program is going to destroy our wages anyway so it doesn't much matter anymore


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> Why do you think you're having so many problems in California??



Whatever the cause, it's NOT because workers earn too much!


----------



## Advanced37

PECGeorge said:


> Why do you think you're having so many problems in California??



California's economy is the largest of any state in the US, and between seventh and tenth in the world. As of 2008, the gross state product (GSP) is about $1.85 trillion, which is 13% of the United States gross domestic product (GDP). The state's GDP growth rate slowed to 0.4% in 2008 after having grown 3.1% in 2006 and 1.8% in 2007. (wikipedia)


----------



## LGLS

I would just like to take a moment here to thank the thread starter, as well as every participant for their lively, and mature input to this discussion. Give yourselves a hand everyone!


----------



## Advanced37

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I would just like to take a moment here to thank the thread starter, as well as every participant for their lively, and mature input to this discussion. Give yourselves a hand everyone!




:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## brian john

jammerx37 said:


> California's economy is the largest of any state in the US, and between seventh and tenth in the world. As of 2008, the gross state product (GSP) is about $1.85 trillion, which is 13% of the United States gross domestic product (GDP). The state's GDP growth rate slowed to 0.4% in 2008 after having grown 3.1% in 2006 and 1.8% in 2007. (wikipedia)


And like the richest American or the poorest, YOU CANNOT SPEND MORE THAN YOU MAKE. Which means all those programs that are give aways (NO MATTER HOW GOOD INTENTIONED) need to be cut.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I would just like to take a moment here to thank the thread starter, as well as every participant for their lively, and *mature* input to this discussion. Give yourselves a hand everyone!



*Mature* SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I would just like to take a moment here to thank the thread starter, as well as every participant for their lively, and mature input to this discussion. Give yourselves a hand everyone!


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Well played, next time just say 'I know you are but what am I'.


WTF are you babbling about?

- Bob


----------



## william1978

RIVETER said:


> In N.C. don't people in the workplace have the ability to form, or join a union if the majority of the workers want to? Am I being naive?


 You are correct. There is such a fear of the union in the non union electricians. The largest elec. contractor in N.C. called a meeting almost a year ago because some of the employees had signed something asking for more info. The owner came in and said he would shut the company down and open under a different name.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Whatever the cause, it's NOT because workers earn too much!


LGLS - you live in eutopia...the reality is that many, many, many people are *paid* to much...

notice i said paid, and not earn?

that's because it's not the wage that really matters...it's the productivity for the wage that makes the difference...

and too many people, don't earn the wage they are paid...whether it be $20/hr non-union or $80/hr union...

we have become a nation of people who feel entitled to everything...and forget that we have to earn what we get...


----------



## slickvic277

william1978 said:


> You are correct. There is such a fear of the union in the non union electricians. The largest elec. contractor in N.C. called a meeting almost a year ago because some of the employees had signed something asking for more info. The owner came in and said he would shut the company down and open under a different name.



Typical scare tactic.


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> we have become a nation of people who feel entitled to everything...and forget that we have to earn what we get...


Now wait a minute, I am an American I deserve $80 per hr just because I woke up and made coffee, I am entitled to that! Don't ask me to be productive, my being alive should be enough!



:no::no:


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Typical scare tactic.


It sure is, and it's wrong. Just like all the scare tactics the unions in my area use. :whistling2:


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> LGLS - you live in eutopia...the reality is that many, many, many people are *paid* to much...
> 
> notice i said paid, and not earn?
> 
> that's because it's not the wage that really matters...it's the productivity for the wage that makes the difference...
> 
> and too many people, don't earn the wage they are paid...whether it be $20/hr non-union or $80/hr union...
> 
> we have become a nation of people who feel entitled to everything...and forget that we have to earn what we get...



Some people are paid to much but many many people are not paid enough is closer to reality.

What do we feel entitled to?Besides decent wages and conditions.
I keep hearing people throw these entitled thing around,entitled to what?Being treated fairly,Earning a living wage,Expecting a higher standard of living.Yes you have to earn your keep but I do feel entitled to all the above.I refuse anything less.

Now if your talking about handouts,thats a different story.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Some people are paid to much but many many people are not paid enough is closer to reality.
> 
> What do we feel entitled to?Besides decent wages and conditions.
> I keep hearing people throw these entitled thing around,entitled to what?Being treated fairly,Earning a living wage,Expecting a higher standard of living.Yes you have to earn your keep but I do feel entitled to all the above.I refuse anything less.
> 
> Now if your talking about handouts,thats a different story.


In my opinion no one is entitled to more pay than what the market determines. Any contract that forces an artificially higher wage is the equivalent to a hand out.

You won't like that thought but if you take the time to be honest with yourself you know it to be true.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> It sure is, and it's wrong. Just like all the scare tactics the unions in my area use. :whistling2:


But the difference is,has anyone of your employees loss there jobs due to the union?These people are threatened with there job's for exercising there rights,lots and lots of people are "let go" just for mentioning the word union.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> In my opinion no one is entitled to more pay than what the market determines. Any contract that forces an artificially higher wage is the equivalent to a hand out.
> 
> You won't like that thought but if you take the time to be honest with yourself you know it to be true.


What does the market determine?My local has 90% market share in Philadelphia.Do you mean I should show up and tell the customer what he wants to pay me? Then we all be working for free.Last time I cashed a check it seemed pretty real to me.Nothing artificial about it.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But the difference is,has anyone of your employees loss there jobs due to the union?


YES

We where recently awarded a job at a site in the 'unions turf' we were the only non union contractor that would have been on that job. 

The job was pulled from us because the other union contractors threatened the job with work slow downs and pickets if we where on the job. The job was pulled from us and given to a union contractor.

So yes, the union directly hurts our employees.



> These people are threatened with there job's for exercising there rights,lots and lots of people are "let go" just for mentioning the word union.


Yes and I have been personally intimidated face to face by union picketers while I am trying to go to my job. They would have liked me to go home and not earn my days pay. I don't find that helpful. :no:


Now before anyone says that 'does not happen' I say you have not been in my shoes, I don't know how it works where you are but I damn sure know how it works here.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> What does the market determine?My local has 90% market share in Philadelphia.Do you mean I should show up and tell the customer what he wants to pay me? Then we all be working for free.Last time I cashed a check it seemed pretty real to me.Nothing artificial about it.


If you do not understand what supply and demand mean I have no chance of explaining a free market.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> Some people are paid to much but many many people are not paid enough is closer to reality.
> 
> What do we feel entitled to?Besides decent wages and conditions.
> I keep hearing people throw these entitled thing around,entitled to what?Being treated fairly,Earning a living wage,Expecting a higher standard of living.Yes you have to earn your keep but I do feel entitled to all the above.I refuse anything less.
> 
> Now if your talking about handouts,thats a different story.


when a widget can be sold for $100, and the labor rate is $60/hr, and the material is $20/hr and OH/P is $20/hr...if the guy building the widget only builds 7 in an 8 hr day....guess what? he's overpaid and didn't earn his money....

the contractor lost money....

but, too many feel entitled to the $60/hr, even though they will only produce 5 or 6 widgets a day...and they will blame management for their inability to produce 8...

yes, life would be perfect if would could get $200/widget, then the guy would be a superstar at 7 widgets a day...but that's not the reality...


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> What does the market determine?My local has 90% market share in Philadelphia.


90% of what? I highly doubt that they hold a 90% share of ALL work in Philly...maybe 90% of a specific niche...


----------



## slickvic277

> Bob Badger;185305]YES
> 
> We where recently awarded a job at a site in the 'unions turf' we were the only non union contractor that would have been on that job.
> 
> The job was pulled from us because the other union contractors threatened the job with work slow downs and pickets if we where on the job. The job was pulled from us and given to a union contractor.
> 
> So yes, the union directly hurts our employees.


It goes both ways.Just like we lost a huge bid on PW job.Did some investigating and found out the non union was cheating on the benefit package(that's how they out bid us on this one)So the LABOR got what the benefit's were suppose to be and the contractors got fined.




> Yes and I have been personally intimidated face to face by union picketers while I am trying to go to my job. They would have liked me to go home and not earn my days pay. I don't find that helpful. :no:
> 
> 
> Now before anyone says that 'does not happen' I say you have not been in my shoes, I don't know how it works where you are but I damn sure know how it works here.


I'm not going to dispute what your saying as a lie,because I know it happens.But I have been threatened and intimidated,bullied by non union contractors.Again it goes both ways.

I guess my point is,that yes,imtimidation happens on both sides but the non union contractor is just as guilty if not more so of these practices.

And I'm tired of the non union acting like poor victims all the time.


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> 90% of what? I highly doubt that they hold a 90% share of ALL work in Philly...maybe 90% of a specific niche...



We set the record for manhours worked per member in the IBEW for 7 years straight.Philadelphia just went through a huge building boom in the last ten years and we did ALL of it.

High rise office buildings,luxury condo's,Airport expansions,Hospital work,Refinery,manufacturing(yes there's a little left)all the college's,High school improvements,casino's,Navy yard,kerverner ship yard,and tons of retail space,Street division is our contract and public transportation,Pharmaceutical labs(we have several).

Philly is a pro union town.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> It goes both ways.Just like we lost a huge bid on PW job.Did some investigating and found out the non union was cheating on the benefit package(that's how they out bid us on this one)So the LABOR got what the benefit's were suppose to be and the contractors got fined.


Yes that EC broke the law and was punished for it, as they should be.

We did not break any laws but we have no recourse agaist the union.






> I'm not going to dispute what your saying as a lie,because I know it happens.But *I have been threatened and intimidated,bullied by non union contractors.*Again it goes both ways.


WHAT?????

Unprovoked? I am having a real hard time buying that. We just are not that organized. 

These guys just showed up uninvited to your job site and tried to block you from going to work?

Or was it more like you where in a bar with a bunch of guys and some differences of opinions lead to heated tempers?




> I guess my point is,that yes,imtimidation happens on both sides but the non union contractor is just as guilty if not more so of these practices.


My personal experience here is 180 degrees apart from your above statement. 



> And I'm tired of the non union acting like poor victims all the time.


You guys cry on this forum if _I just type things_ against the union. 

I will not claim to be a victim but we are without a doubt a direct target of the unions in this area. For example we could care less where the union works but there are areas that are all but off limits to us because it is traditionally union turf. That is BS!


----------



## slickvic277

> Bob Badger;185319]Yes that EC broke the law and was punished for it, as they should be.
> 
> We did not break any laws but we have no recourse agaist the union.



If the union broke laws(and there is laws)then the contractor has lots of recourse.




> WHAT?????
> 
> Unprovoked? I am having a real hard time buying that. We just are not that organized.
> 
> These guys just showed up uninvited to your job site and tried to block you from going to work?
> 
> Or was it more like you where in a bar with a bunch of guys and some differences of opinions lead to heated tempers?



I would hardly call the ABC and IECA unorganized.They have some of the most expensive anti-labor lawyers on pay roll.

Nope,not a real big bar guy.When I was first starting out I was cornered by the E.C's manager just for taking paper work from a B.A. who came out to the job.I was told that the union would destroy his hard work and he would make sure that I could never get another job in the field again unless I abide by the companies "policies".Then I was asked to sign a paper to state I would not sign "outside contracts or agreements".I worked there for about 5 years I quit a while after that.

Then with the next non-union E.C I worked for.We decided to organize.I was threatened face to face by the contractor,I had letters written to my house,phone calls,paychecks bounce,we had all types of actions taking against us.


Again both ways.



> My personal experience here is 180 degrees apart from your above statement.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys cry on this forum if _I just type things_ against the union.
> 
> I will not claim to be a victim but we are without a doubt a direct target of the unions in this area. For example we could care less where the union works but there are areas that are all but off limits to us because it is traditionally union turf. That is BS!


Yep,guy's get upset with all the anti-union banter on this sight,but maybe because it is so dominant.

If there's places you can't work it's probably because these places are under contract with the local.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> If the union broke laws(and there is laws)then the contractor has lots of recourse.


so your argument is that a contractor violating the law and winning a project illegally is the same as Bob's company losing a project because the unions used legal threats and extortion?





slickvic277 said:


> I would hardly call the ABC and IECA unorganized.They have some of the most expensive anti-labor lawyers on pay roll.
> 
> Nope,not a real big bar guy.When I was first starting out I was cornered by the E.C's manager just for taking paper work from a B.A. who came out to the job.I was told that the union would destroy his hard work and he would make sure that I could never get another job in the field again unless I abide by the companies "policies".Then I was asked to sign a paper to state I would not sign "outside contracts or agreements".I worked there for about 5 years I quit a while after that.
> 
> Then with the next non-union E.C I worked for.We decided to organize.I was threatened face to face by the contractor,I had letters written to my house,phone calls,paychecks bounce,we had all types of actions taking against us.
> 
> 
> Again both ways.


again, you are comparing being bullied by the guy who you directly work for and get paid by to Bob being threatened and harassed by a group who, for all intents and purposes, have no legitimate right or reason, to be on the site or even look at Bob...let alone talk or interact with him.

If your version of the events is true, there were definitely issues with how it was presented to you. But you can not compare that to a group of IBEW members picketing your jobsite because they feel entitled to the work...



slickvic277 said:


> Yep,guy's get upset with all the anti-union banter on this sight,but maybe because it is so dominant.
> 
> If there's places you can't work it's probably because these places are under contract with the local.


there are very few places these days that are 'under contract' with the local...but there are many places that will draw pickets and intimidation if the work goes non-union...


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> In my opinion no one is entitled to more pay than what the market determines. Any contract that forces an artificially higher wage is the equivalent to a hand out.


What about a contract that forces an artificially higher profit or, are profits immune to this logic?



> You won't like that thought but if you take the time to be honest with yourself you know it to be true.


A contractor can only bid so low before the job isn't worth doing. Right now with the glut of contractors and the lack of projects you cannot rightfully earn any profit since the market has determined contractors valueless.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> YES
> 
> We where recently awarded a job at a site in the 'unions turf' we were the only non union contractor that would have been on that job.
> 
> The job was pulled from us because the other union contractors threatened the job with work slow downs and pickets if we where on the job. The job was pulled from us and given to a union contractor.
> 
> So yes, the union directly hurts our employees.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and I have been personally intimidated face to face by union picketers while I am trying to go to my job. They would have liked me to go home and not earn my days pay. I don't find that helpful. :no:
> 
> 
> Now before anyone says that 'does not happen' I say you have not been in my shoes, I don't know how it works where you are but I damn sure know how it works here.


Sooo... you were never really going to get the job were you. 

Put it this way - your company did what it had to do - bid work. Union contractors and their employees did what they had to do - and whoever was the decider in this decided that they did not want your company to do the job.

You cann't lose anything you never really had.


----------



## slickvic277

> oldman;185336]so your argument is that a contractor violating the law and winning a project illegally is the same as Bob's company losing a project because the unions used legal threats and extortion?



What threats? and who was extorted.I see lots of jobs with union exclusive in the contract,Just like when I was non union and there was jobs the GC wouldn't except bids from union contractors for.



> again, you are comparing being bullied by the guy who you directly work for and get paid by to Bob being threatened and harassed by a group who, for all intents and purposes, have no legitimate right or reason, to be on the site or even look at Bob...let alone talk or interact with him.


They do have a right to be there and picket,under law you cannot picket with out reason,I never said I agreed with threatening anyone.I don't.



> If your version of the events is true, there were definitely issues with how it was presented to you. But you can not compare that to a group of IBEW members picketing your jobsite because they feel entitled to the work...


How what was presented to me?The bounced checks or the threats by people I didn't know but certainly knew me.True?Check out NLRB stats some time,The UFLP fines are way lop sided when you compare penalties of labor vrs business.Employers are found way more guilty of UFLP against labor(organized or not)year after year.Under law the have right to picket for a dispute of wages.



> there are very few places these days that are 'under contract' with the local...but there are many places that will draw pickets and intimidation if the work goes non-union...


Really?I know lots of places under contract with the local,what kind of intimidation?There are laws that protect contractors from illegal activity's from union's.The high paid lawyers of the ABC and IECA didn't inform you.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> If the union broke laws(and there is laws)then the contractor has lots of recourse.


I doubt they broke any laws, but they did screw us with their intimidation tactics. 

You had asked me



> has anyone of your employees loss there jobs due to the union?


and the answer is yes.



> I would hardly call the ABC and IECA unorganized.They have some of the most expensive anti-labor lawyers on pay roll.


What do lawyers and lobbying have to do with on job site pickets, I have never seen a group of 'anti-labor lawyers' picketing a job site getting in the union guys way of getting to work, blocking deliveries to the site etc,




> Nope,not a real big bar guy.When I was first starting out I was cornered by the E.C's manager just for taking paper work from a B.A. who came out to the job.I was told that the union would destroy his hard work and he would make sure that I could never get another job in the field again unless I abide by the companies "policies".


OK I can see that happening, and I agree it is not right and I will not deny it can happen.




> Yep,guy's get upset with all the anti-union banter on this sight,but maybe because it is so dominant.


About as dominant as people calling non-union 'rats' 'untrained' 'scabs' 'hacks' etc.



> If there's places you can't work it's probably because these places are under contract with the local.


First off no 'place' should be under contract to only use union labor, a company OK but not a 'place'. that is un-American. 

But regardless this situation had nothing to do with any contracts it had to do with turf. We basically cannot work on any job, of any significance in the city of Boston without drawing pickets from at least one or more unions. (It is not always the IBEW) That scares customers as that will typically slow the job and add to the costs.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> What threats? and who was extorted.I see lots of jobs with union exclusive in the contract,Just like when I was non union and there was jobs the GC wouldn't except bids from union contractors for.
> 
> 
> 
> They do have a right to be there and picket,under law you cannot picket with out reason,I never said I agreed with threatening anyone.I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> How what was presented to me?The bounced checks or the threats by people I didn't know but certainly knew me.True?Check out NLRB stats some time,The UFLP fines are way lop sided when you compare penalties of labor vrs business.Employers are found way more guilty of UFLP against labor(organized or not)year after year.Under law the have right to picket for a dispute of wages.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?I know lots of places under contract with the local,what kind of intimidation?There are laws that protect contractors from illegal activity's from union's.The high paid lawyers of the ABC and IECA didn't inform you.


i didn't know PA is officially the 'State of Denial'...

you and i could go round and round all day...but the points are there, people reading will see both sides and make a decision...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sooo... you were never really going to get the job were you.


You have a reading problem.

We had been awarded the job, it was our job. I know this as I was involved in the negotiations.



> Put it this way - your company did what it had to do - bid work.


Yes, we bid it against union shops fair and square. And we won. 



> Union contractors and their employees did what they had to do -


Yeah, they could not win fair so they went scumbag and made sure the customer knew that the union shops would not work professionally with us on the same job.



> and whoever was the decider in this decided that they did not want your company to do the job.


'The decider' had decided we where the right company to do the job until they realized the additional costs that would be incurred with police details, two job gates and constant tension.




> You cann't lose anything you never really had.


Again it was already ours.

And it happens the building is one of 400 or so this customer owns and we are doing the same job right now at 3 other locations, the only reason we lost the one I am talking about is the City it is located in.

I know you will be proud of the unions 'victory', but to normal folks it is underhanded BS that they would be ashamed to be a part of.


----------



## slickvic277

> Bob Badger;185351]I doubt they broke any laws, but they did screw us with their intimidation tactics.


Intimidation tactics are illegal:whistling2:








> What do lawyers and lobbying have to do with on job site pickets, I have never seen a group of 'anti-labor lawyers' picketing a job site getting in the union guys way of getting to work, blocking deliveries to the site etc,


Everything.Except the work in the background from there offices and telephones.Always trying to burn down the wages and conditions of organized labor.




> OK I can see that happening, and I agree it is not right and I will not deny it can happen.


I'm really starting to enjoy these debates with you,god I'm bored.






> About as dominant as people calling non-union 'rats' 'untrained' 'scabs' 'hacks' etc.


I don't see as much of that on this sight as I do the union bashing.



> First off no 'place' should be under contract to only use union labor, a company OK but not a 'place'. that is un-American.


Any municipality can sign a contract with anyone,company,or organization they see fit,that is American.



> But regardless this situation had nothing to do with any contracts it had to do with turf. We basically cannot work on any job, of any significance in the city of Boston without drawing pickets from at least one or more unions. (It is not always the IBEW) That scares customers as that will typically slow the job and add to the costs.


How do you know the customers are scared?Maybe it ads to the cost's or maybe it just cuts into the contractors profit.


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> i didn't know PA is officially the 'State of Denial'...
> 
> you and i could go round and round all day...but the points are there, people reading will see both sides and make a decision...



What are we in denial about?We could go around all day,that's what makes this sight fun!


----------



## brian john

> But I have been threatened and intimidated,bullied by non union contractors.Again it goes both ways.


Dare I say Bravo Sierra, HUH?, WHAT?, NEVER HEARD ANYTHING CLOSE TO THIS ever, never, nope, nada.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Yes that EC broke the law and was punished for it, as they should be.
> 
> We did not break any laws but we have no recourse agaist the union.


You're no more entitled to recourse from the union for not getting that job than you are entitled to recourse from any other project you weren't awarded .

Talk about an entitlement mentality...



> WHAT?????
> 
> Unprovoked? I am having a real hard time buying that. We just are not that organized.
> 
> These guys just showed up uninvited to your job site and tried to block you from going to work?
> 
> Or was it more like you where in a bar with a bunch of guys and some differences of opinions lead to heated tempers?


Intimidation doesn't have to come in the form of a neckless heavyweight goon with an in your face attitude. More crimes against workers are committed with a pen from a cubicle than with a weapon on the street. 



> My personal experience here is 180 degrees apart from your above statement.


You are not in unknown territory - it's your choice to delve into a market you know is heavily unionized. 



> You guys cry on this forum if _I just type things_ against the union.
> 
> I will not claim to be a victim but we are without a doubt a direct target of the unions in this area. For example we could care less where the union works but there are areas that are all but off limits to us because it is traditionally union turf. That is BS!


Don't dive into a pool and then complain that you're all wet. You use all the tools at your disposal, so does the union. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Why do you feel entitled to win every fight, or better, why do you feel you're above having any opposing contender at all?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Intimidation tactics are illegal


And are virtually imposable to prosecute.




> Everything.Except the work in the background from there offices and telephones.Always trying to burn down the wages and conditions of organized labor.


Nice try but you are changing the subject, if we are moving from the job site to the court house lets not forget the union has many lawyers as well.



> I'm really starting to enjoy these debates with you,god I'm bored.


:laughing:




> I don't see as much of that on this sight as I do the union bashing.


Yeah, try opening your eyes.

I would also point out that this site gets a lot of threads from newbies asking if they should go union or not. I never jump in on those and put down the union, if someone wants to go union then that is great as long as it is their own free choice. 



> Any municipality can sign a contract with anyone,company,or organization they see fit,that is American.


Those are not 'places' those are companies or organizations.

There is a difference between a company (Like Greenlee) and a place (Like the entire city of Boston)



> How do you know the customers are scared?Maybe it ads to the cost's or maybe it just cuts into the contractors profit.


I have worked with this customer for about 12 years, I do know. They are more concerned with being on time then with contractors profits. They are also very experienced with these issues and I do not blame them for doing what is in their best interests.

I do blame the unions and there belief they 'own' every job that happens in the city.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> so your argument is that a contractor violating the law and winning a project illegally is the same as Bob's company losing a project because the unions used legal threats and extortion?


Where did Bob say anything about extortion?



> again, you are comparing being bullied by the guy who you directly work for and get paid by


No no no, it is the guy who does the work that pays the boss Oldman...



> to Bob being threatened and harassed by a group who, for all intents and purposes, have no legitimate right or reason, to be on the site or even look at Bob...let alone talk or interact with him.


Bob wasn't threatened, was he? If there were people engaged in threatening acts and harassment why weren't the police called? Why no lawsuit? No charges filed? 



> If your version of the events is true, there were definitely issues with how it was presented to you. But you can not compare that to a group of IBEW members picketing your jobsite because they feel entitled to the work...


You believe in the free market and capatilism, why not free speech? The right to protest is protected free speech. 



> there are very few places these days that are 'under contract' with the local...but there are many places that will draw pickets and intimidation if the work goes non-union...


That's not true, in many areas especially in large plants and malls and office towers that the owners / management agents specifically draw leases prohibiting unorganized construction labor from engaging in work on the leased property. 

One of the reasons for these covenants is that the buildings themselves were built or bought by the owners borrowing union pension funds in return for a sweet above-market ROI.


----------



## LGLS

> First off no 'place' should be under contract to only use union labor, a company OK but not a 'place'. that is un-American.


Depends on what you mean by "place." How about a property?



> But regardless this situation had nothing to do with any contracts it had to do with turf. We basically cannot work on any job, of any significance in the city of Boston without drawing pickets from at least one or more unions. (It is not always the IBEW) That scares customers as that will typically slow the job and add to the costs.


You too are free to gather your unemployed men and set up a picket to protest union tactics in the city of Boston.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're no more entitled to recourse from the union for not getting that job than you are entitled to recourse from any other project you weren't awarded .
> 
> Talk about an entitlement mentality...


We are entitled to a fair playing feild no more no less.

The unions tactics where unfair in this case but I know you don't see it that way. 




> Intimidation doesn't have to come in the form of a neckless heavyweight goon with an in your face attitude. More crimes against workers are committed with a pen from a cubicle than with a weapon on the street.


Yes, that is true to some extent, although I have never had a fear that a pen was bout to break my nose.




> You are not in unknown territory - it's your choice to delve into a market you know is heavily unionized.


Nice job, the quiet threat the unions are so practiced at. 

_'We are not wrong for being bullys, you are wrong for being near us'_



The location of the job should not even be a frigging consideration, it is a free country. We are not trying to get work from say Harvard Univ. who has labor agreements in place, we are just bidding work for a company that has no agreements in place. 




> Don't dive into a pool and then complain that you're all wet.


You love the stupid meaningless sound bites.

Let me translate that to what that really means.

_'Don't get upset when you work in this area if you get your ass kicked'_



> Why do you feel entitled to win every fight, or better, why do you feel you're above having any opposing contender at all?


I have not said any of that, we bid almost 300 million in work last year, we did not win it all. We, like any contractor do not expect to win all the bids. If we did we would have to look at our pricing.

But in this case we did win the bid, we lost the job to underhanded scumbag tactics.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Dare I say Bravo Sierra, HUH?, WHAT?, NEVER HEARD ANYTHING CLOSE TO THIS ever, never, nope, nada.



OOHH! sooo since YOU never heard of this it doesn't happen!It was all imagined!

You live in a bubble don't you?All the contractors are nice guy's just trying to scrape by.Cut me a brake.Please.Hey next time I experience something on a job site I'll give you a PM to see if it actually happened.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's not true, in many areas especially in large plants and malls and office towers that the owners / management agents specifically draw leases prohibiting unorganized construction labor from engaging in work on the leased property.
> 
> One of the reasons for these covenants is that the buildings themselves were built or bought by the owners borrowing union pension funds in return for a sweet above-market ROI.



I do not deny any of that, and if a company signed an agreement they should be held to it.

But is this case there where no agreements in place.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> You have a reading problem.
> 
> We had been awarded the job, it was our job. I know this as I was involved in the negotiations.


That said you have recourse - sue for your lost profits.



> Yes, we bid it against union shops fair and square. And we won.


Not really. You bid against shops that have higher standards and working rules. You didn't win "fair and square" you won because your cost of labor is lower. 

Were the playing field level and you bid based on superior management capabilities or lower overhead not due to shortchanging your workforce and putting 12 helpers to work with one journeyman (to the ultimate detriment of everybody who makes a living in this industry) and not offering pensions or decent medical benefits, and the union shops came down to your level, you would simply lowr your standards again to get back on top. (Just look at the Carolinas and Florida and Texas for a practical reference.) 

Such is the race to the bottom Bob with you leading the charge against anyone trying to stop it - at least the union is there to draw a line in the sand, because were nonunion shops such as yours to get their way 20 years ago, you probably wouldn't want to be in this business today.



> Yeah, they could not win fair so they went scumbag and made sure the customer knew that the union shops would not work professionally with us on the same job.


Nonunion shops - no bennies, no pensions, 1 almost decently paid electrician to 12 laborers with no viable chance at advancement and no future, lack of tools, shortchanged hours, prevailing wage violations, threats against organizing...

WHO went "Scumbag" here Bob?



> 'The decider' had decided we where the right company to do the job until they realized the additional costs that would be incurred with police details, two job gates and constant tension.


Bob, in this day and age of a video camera built into every cellphone, ANYONE picketing or leafletting a nonunion jobsite in protest (perfectly legal) knows better than to block deliveries or cause sabotage. Even if the police had to monitor the site there is no cost to anyone but the general public as I've never heard of a bill from the P.D.

Further, whenever jobs are awarded it is typical to replace contractors when the developer just isn't comfortable with an awardee for a host of reasons other than union affiliation. Even low bidders are often thrown out especially when other trades depend on the lowballers viability or capabilities.




> Again it was already ours.


So it was stolen from you?


> And it happens the building is one of 400 or so this customer owns and we are doing the same job right now at 3 other locations, the only reason we lost the one I am talking about is the City it is located in.


No, the only reason you lost this one is because you lost this one. The owner decided it wouldn't be worth the trouble. The owner pulled the job from you not the union. 



> I know you will be proud of the unions 'victory', but to normal folks it is underhanded BS that they would be ashamed to be a part of.


I'm quite proud to be a part of it Bob. And to some "normal folks" Walmart is a good thing. I happen to disagree. Importing cheap goods is a good thing. I disagree. Mexicans finishing concrete for 10 bucks an hour is a good thing. I disagree. 

In your world, you get the crumbs. In mine, me and my family eat first and foremost, and then you figure out how to profit from the process.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> We are entitled to a fair playing feild no more no less.


*FINALLY WE AGREE! Now, YOU pay ALL of your electricians prevailing wages ALL THE TIME, or more, and your shop cannot have any more than one apprentice from year 1-5 for every 3 journeymen it employs. You provide a benefit package exactly identical in cost and provisions that the union does. *



> The unions tactics where unfair in this case but I know you don't see it that way.


The union had the upper hand in this case. Deal with it Bob this is business, not a game of hopscotch. 



> Yes, that is true to some extent, although I have never had a fear that a pen was bout to break my nose.


Sounds to me like you were mobilizing your men onto the site when this all went down, is that the case? Or are all these fears you have based on assumptions about what might happen, or what other people have said? I mean, could you imagine what would happen if any of these so-called threats actually gelled? 

No Bob, here's what *I think* happened - the developer / owner got you to bid just to use as a weapon to get the real awardee's price down. They never had any intention of letting your nonunion shop work on a 100% union jobsite. Your company was used. 



> Nice job, the quiet threat the unions are so practiced at.
> 
> _'We are not wrong for being bullys, you are wrong for being near us'_
> 
> 
> 
> The location of the job should not even be a frigging consideration, it is a free country. We are not trying to get work from say Harvard Univ. who has labor agreements in place, we are just bidding work for a company that has no agreements in place.


In the end it was that company that was free to decide whatever they wanted. 



> You love the stupid meaningless sound bites.
> 
> Let me translate that to what that really means.
> 
> _'Don't get upset when you work in this area if you get your ass kicked'_




What is this Bob, 1942?



> I have not said any of that, we bid almost 300 million in work last year, we did not win it all. We, like any contractor do not expect to win all the bids. If we did we would have to look at our pricing.
> 
> But in this case we did win the bid, we lost the job to underhanded scumbag tactics.


Had you been awarded the job, the union might say the same thing about you.


----------



## hardworkingstiff

I didn't read all these posts, but my 2cents is the problem with the Union is the same as the problem with Big Business (greed). It's us against them. The Union was needed because of BB greed and the us against them mentality escalated.

I don't think you can fix a union without fixing BB.

When this Country starts thinking as "we", things will get better.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ........*Now, YOU pay ALL of your electricians prevailing wages ALL THE TIME, or more, and your shop cannot have any more than one apprentice from year 1-5 for every 3 journeymen it employs. You provide a benefit package exactly identical in cost and provisions that the union does. *
> .............


So now you think the Unions should be able to dictate to ALL BUSINESSES how they structure their pricing methods, what bennies they are to offer, what ratios to hire to, how much to pay their employees.........?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That said you have recourse - sue for your lost profits.


No, we cannot do that for may reasons and don;t act like you do not know why.





> Not really. You bid against shops that have higher standards and working rules. You didn't win "fair and square" you won because your cost of labor is lower.


Sorry that is like saying because it was not fair because the owner of the other company has a bigger home. The other contractors costs of doing businesses is not my problem.



> Were the playing field level and you bid based on superior management capabilities or lower overhead not due to shortchanging your workforce and* putting 12 helpers to work with one journeyman*


Again talking about what you do not know about.

Sorry 1 to 12 ratio that cannot happen here, minimum 1 to 1 ratio and it is enforced. Some job specs require higher ratios





> Such is the race to the bottom Bob with you leading the charge against anyone trying to stop it


And you are leading the way to less work to be done.





> - at least the union is there to draw a line in the sand, because were nonunion shops such as yours to get their way 20 years ago, you probably wouldn't want to be in this business today.


Yeah, they would probaly own as slaves now. 





> Nonunion shops - no bennies, no pensions, 1 almost decently paid electrician to 12 laborers with no viable chance at advancement and no future, lack of tools, shortchanged hours, prevailing wage violations, threats against organizing...



Other then the pension none of what you posted above is true with the shops I have worked for. 

You are just listing every bad thing you have heard into group like all those things are true at all merit shops.

Anyone can see through that BS. 







> Bob, in this day and age of a video camera built into every cellphone, ANYONE picketing or leafletting a nonunion jobsite in protest (perfectly legal) knows better than to block deliveries or cause sabotage. Even if the police had to monitor the site there is no cost to anyone but the general public as I've never heard of a bill from the P.D.


I have to run, but in a nutshell you are all wet here.



> Further, whenever jobs are awarded it is typical to replace contractors when the developer just isn't comfortable with an awardee for a host of reasons other than union affiliation.


Yeah, it happens for other reasons, this time it was all about the union,




> Even low bidders are often thrown out especially when other trades depend on the lowballers viability or capabilities.


We can do the job, as I said we are succfully doing the same job in other towns, and we do this type of work all the time.









> No, the only reason you lost this one is because you lost this one. The owner decided it wouldn't be worth the trouble.



Would not be worth the trouble due to the union.



> The owner pulled the job from you not the union.


Due to the union.

It is amazing that for you all bad starts at an owner and all good stsrts at the union.

You seem to suffer from some ego issue with owners.





> In your world, you get the crumbs.



Again talking aout your ass and trying to make it personal.


----------



## LGLS

hardworkingstiff said:


> I didn't read all these posts, but my 2cents is the problem with the Union is the same as the problem with Big Business (greed). It's us against them. The Union was needed because of BB greed and the us against them mentality escalated.
> 
> I don't think you can fix a union without fixing BB.
> 
> When this Country starts thinking as "we", things will get better.


The question remains, how do you define "better?" Whose better is best?


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> So now you think the Unions should be able to dictate to ALL BUSINESSES how they structure their pricing methods, what bennies they are to offer, what ratios to hire to, how much to pay their employees.........?


Hey - HE wanted a LEVEL playing field, he didn't indicate that his shop was to define it.


----------



## EBFD6

Bob doesn't need me to fight his battles for him, but I can't help but comment on this extremely ignorant post, even for you.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That said you have recourse - sue for your lost profits.


Sue who, the IBEW?

Bob's company is not going to sue their customer over this as he stated they do a lot of work for them at other locations, it wouldn't be wise to destroy a relationship over one job.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not really. You bid against shops that have higher standards and working rules. You didn't win "fair and square" you won because your cost of labor is lower.


How do you know what Bob and his co-workers are paid? How do you know what his company's labor rates are?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Were the playing field level and you bid based on superior management capabilities or lower overhead not due to shortchanging your workforce and putting 12 helpers to work with one journeyman (to the ultimate detriment of everybody who makes a living in this industry) and not offering pensions or decent medical benefits, and the union shops came down to your level, you would simply lowr your standards again to get back on top. (Just look at the Carolinas and Florida and Texas for a practical reference.)


Now you are just talking out of your a$$, Bob works in Massachusetts (as do I) and journeymen (MA has state license required) to apprentice(someone who is unlicensed) ratios are by law 1:1 and are strictly enforced by the state. So 12 helpers to one journeyman doesn't happen, some shady companies might try it, but it doesn't last long. Once the state gets involved the penalties are severe.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Such is the race to the bottom Bob with you leading the charge against anyone trying to stop it - at least the union is there to draw a line in the sand, because were nonunion shops such as yours to get their way 20 years ago, you probably wouldn't want to be in this business today.


Oh yeah, thank God for the IBEW, if it weren't for them we would all still be making 10 cents a day, no safety regulations, 16 hour days, no lunch breaks. Yep, they single handedly saved the day!



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nonunion shops - no bennies, no pensions, 1 almost decently paid electrician to 12 laborers with no viable chance at advancement and no future, lack of tools, shortchanged hours, prevailing wage violations, threats against organizing...
> 
> WHO went "Scumbag" here Bob?


Again, typical union drivel. You have no idea what you are talking about. Not every open shop operates this way. I know the company Bob works for, and this is not the case with them. They are a larger than average company, pay their guys well, supply the tools needed, good benefits.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bob, in this day and age of a video camera built into every cellphone, ANYONE picketing or leafletting a nonunion jobsite in protest (perfectly legal) knows better than to block deliveries or cause sabotage. Even if the police had to monitor the site there is no cost to anyone but the general public as I've never heard of a bill from the P.D.


You've never heard of a police detail? They are not free, the general public does not foot the bill for details, the contractor or customer does.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Further, whenever jobs are awarded it is typical to replace contractors when the developer just isn't comfortable with an awardee for a host of reasons other than union affiliation. Even low bidders are often thrown out especially when other trades depend on the lowballers viability or capabilities.


The customer didn't "replace" Bob's company because they were uncomfortable with them. They were forced to by the other trade unions threats of a work slow down and other union BS tactics (at the request of the IBEW I'm sure). 



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So it was stolen from you?
> 
> 
> No, the only reason you lost this one is because you lost this one. The owner decided it wouldn't be worth the trouble. The owner pulled the job from you not the union.


The owner decided it wasn't worth the trouble, because he knew the unions (both IBEW and others) would make sure it *was* trouble if the customer didn't comply. Typical union thuggery, nothing else!


----------



## hardworkingstiff

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The question remains, how do you define "better?" Whose better is best?


Good point, better to me is when the employer is thinking more about the customer and employee than himself and the employee is thinking more about the customer and the employer than himself and the customer understands they need to pay enough money for the contractor and employee to live. Eutopia, I know, but...... I can wish.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Hey - HE wanted a LEVEL playing field, he didn't indicate that his shop was to define it.


 
So in other words, play by *your* rules only?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No, we cannot do that for may reasons and don't act like you do not know why.


And likewise, sometimes the union loses out to a nonunion contractor and there's nothing to be done about it.



> Sorry that is like saying because it was not fair because the owner of the other company has a bigger home. The other contractors costs of doing businesses is not my problem.


And your loss of this project is not the union's problem. The owners probably didn't want the bad publicity sure to ensue when the people of Boston find out they hired a contractor from way out in the sticks who brings cheaper labor into a city while the residents of that city suffer through this recession. 



> Again talking about what you do not know about.
> 
> Sorry 1 to 12 ratio that cannot happen here, minimum 1 to 1 ratio and it is enforced. Some job specs require higher ratios


And even at that ratio you still aren't paying Boston's prevailing wages to your Southeastern Mass electricians, probably not even 1/2. So you WANT a level playing field except you want to work your 1/2 priced men in a 2x priced city. 

Take a look - Boston, ALL the way on the right. Bob Badger, ALL the way on the left. 



> And you are leading the way to less work to be done.


LOL! ANd there's be another building BOOM if we'd all just work for free Bob. But sorry, some people have minimum standards. And I suspect yours are even lower.



> Yeah, they would probaly own as slaves now.


You think they'd be getting higher wages?



> Other then the pension none of what you posted above is true with the shops I have worked for.


I don't care about the shops you have workerd for or work for now. All I know is that for some strange reason, all of the "bad" nonunion shops that engage in every underhanded and labor-chiseling practice, none of them seem to be represented here and all of you nonunion contractors and employees of nonunion contractors here are amazingly that ONE exception to the rule. 

:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:



> You are just listing every bad thing you have heard into group like all those things are true at all merit shops.
> 
> Anyone can see through that BS.


See above... and talk about listing every bad thing you heard about... this contract, you got the goons, the intimidation, the thinly veiled threats... yup... it's all in there Bob. Why didn't you throw in some jackrocks and a horse's head while you were at it?



> I have to run, but in a nutshell you are all wet here.


You can't respond to this, yet continue with the other points? Guess you can't discuss this when reason and common sense get in the way. 



> Yeah, it happens for other reasons, this time it was all about the union,


 Or your lack thereof.



> We can do the job, as I said we are succfully doing the same job in other towns, and we do this type of work all the time.


But not in Boston. Because what Boston residents don't want to hear is that some out of town contractor from the sticks is causing local unemployment.



> Would not be worth the trouble due to the union.


So you win some and you lose some. Grow up. The union isn't the bad guy here - the end result is the job will get done and better wages will be earned and instead of your boss profiting, some other boss will profit, and most likely all that income and profit will remain local.



> Due to the union.
> 
> It is amazing that for you all bad starts at an owner and all good stsrts at the union.
> 
> You seem to suffer from some ego issue with owners.


You seem to suffer union envy.



> Again talking aout your ass and trying to make it personal.


 Your right and I apoligize. You know how passionate I get sometimes. I did make it personal, my bad.


----------



## sparkall

brian john said:


> Dare I say Bravo Sierra, HUH?, WHAT?, NEVER HEARD ANYTHING CLOSE TO THIS ever, never, nope, nada.


Weaksauce.

I'm definitely not a big union supporter.

But the fact is as a union member I have been harassed multiple times by non-union electricians. 

The worst of it was when I was parked in a movie theatre one night and came out to find what appeared to be a hammer made hole in the back window of my car right thru the IBEW sticker that was on it. 

The difference is that I don't go around saying "All non-union guys are rats and harassed me and blah blah blah". I don't generalize everyone like you and many others here seem to do.


----------



## sparkall

480sparky said:


> So now you think the Unions should be able to dictate to ALL BUSINESSES how they structure their pricing methods, what bennies they are to offer, what ratios to hire to, how much to pay their employees.........?


He said Prevailing Wage. Unions don't set that.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> So in other words, play by *your* rules only?


Not at all - just that in order to demand a level playing field, you can't put a 150# boxer in a ring with a 250# opponent. 

...And you can't pit a a contractor from out of the sticks that gets paid 1/2 the local rate against another contractor that pays 2x as much because the city is an expensive place to live and the wage standards are higher, and then demand that the workers wages in that city come down to your's in order to achieve this "level" playing field. (Unless you think it's reasonable and practical for everyone to commute 350 miles to work everyday.)


----------



## PECGeorge

*Quote: FINALLY WE AGREE! Now, YOU pay ALL of your electricians prevailing wages ALL THE TIME, or more, and your shop cannot have any more than one apprentice from year 1-5 for every 3 journeymen it employs. You provide a benefit package exactly identical in cost and provisions that the union does. *

*I think one of my apprentices could outperform most of your union journeyman.*


----------



## oldman

sparkall said:


> Weaksauce.
> 
> I'm definitely not a big union supporter.
> 
> But the fact is as a union member I have been harassed multiple times by non-union electricians.
> 
> The worst of it was when I was parked in a movie theatre one night and came out to find what appeared to be a hammer made hole in the back window of my car right thru the IBEW sticker that was on it.
> 
> The difference is that I don't go around saying "All non-union guys are rats and harassed me and blah blah blah". I don't generalize everyone like you and many others here seem to do.


So, a couple of "assumed" wayward idiot non-union guys are now comparable to a well funded, organized effort?

Good to know.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> OOHH! sooo since YOU never heard of this it doesn't happen!It was all imagined!
> 
> You live in a bubble don't you? All the contractors are nice guy's just trying to scrape by. Cut me a brake.Please.Hey next time I experience something on a job site I'll give you a PM to see if it actually happened.


Not really I do work for open shops and unions around the country I can AS YOU CAN only speak from experience. 

I am saying in my experience not only have I never heard of this but in my experience I THINK YOU ARE BS'ing, to cover your argument.

I think I can do a web search and find unions bullying open shop, I can do a web search and find owners bullying organizers, and MAYBE you can do a web search and post a link to open shop men bullying union men.

If you do I will apologize,


----------



## sparkall

oldman said:


> So, a couple of "assumed" wayward idiot non-union guys are now comparable to a well funded, organized effort?
> 
> Good to know.


Ok, so all unions and union members are considered organized crime now? 

Are you going to backpedal this like you did in the other thread?


----------



## PECGeorge

sparkall said:


> Ok, so all unions and union members are considered organized crime now?
> 
> Are you going to backpedal this like you did in the other thread?


I didn't read anything in his post stating uinions and union members are considered organized crime.... Both sides have their share of IDIOTS. But if you read all the posts on this thread you can truly sense the arrogance from the union side of the argument. Anyone stating anything against the union is lambasted - reminds me of debates between Republicans and Democrats - It's never truly a debate.


----------



## PECGeorge

I am amazed at how lawn guy knows how much money everyone is being paid and how they structure their business models. I think he should be a business owner....


----------



## william1978

PECGeorge said:


> ... Both sides have their share of IDIOTS.


 :thumbsup: End of story.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not at all - just that in order to demand a level playing field, you can't put a 150# boxer in a ring with a 250# opponent.


 
Yes, at all.

Your own words:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> *....... Now, YOU pay ALL of your electricians prevailing wages ALL THE TIME, or more, and your shop cannot have any more than one apprentice from year 1-5 for every 3 journeymen it employs. You provide a benefit package exactly identical in cost and provisions that the union does.* ....


So instead of playing by the rules of free enterprise, you expect everyone to play by the Union rules.


----------



## sparkall

PECGeorge said:


> I didn't read anything in his post stating uinions and union members are considered organized crime....


 When he said "a well funded, organized effort" he was clearly talking about the union. And as he has said before, he is saying that the unions are committing crimes. 


> Both sides have their share of IDIOTS.


 Agreed!



> But if you read all the posts on this thread you can truly sense the arrogance from the union side of the argument. Anyone stating anything against the union is lambasted - reminds me of debates between Republicans and Democrats - It's never truly a debate.


I don't see it. I think you are either being hypocritical or willfully ignorant. Looking from a truly non-biased position I see arrogance and insults from *BOTH* sides. 


> Anyone stating anything against the union is lambasted


 And anyone stating anything against non-union is also lambasted by many people.


----------



## sparkall

480sparky said:


> Yes, at all.
> 
> Your own words:
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of playing by the rules of free enterprise, you expect everyone to play by the Union rules.


Once again, he said "PREVAILING WAGE". That is NOT set by the union, therefore not unions rules.


----------



## LGLS

EBFD6 said:


> Bob doesn't need me to fight his battles for him, but I can't help but comment on this extremely ignorant post, even for you.
> 
> Sue who, the IBEW?
> 
> Bob's company is not going to sue their customer over this as he stated they do a lot of work for them at other locations, it wouldn't be wise to destroy a relationship over one job.


The point here is that Bob feels this situation is unfair to his business. I think that his very presense in a union city is unfair to that local labor. Should Bob get a job in Boston and brings lower paid workers there undermining the local wages and bringing down their standard of living, can those locals sue Bob? 

You are aware of the whole reason why there is such a thing as prevailing wage rates? It's written into law so, though you may disagree with it the courts are not on his side. And even if this particular job wasn't a PW job, the local union workforce would still be getting it.

Now I'm wondering if this particular lost contract was funded in part or in whole by any of the bailout money??? Or maybe I was right in a previous post - that Bob's entire involvement was just a rouse to get the local contractors bid down. 



> How do you know what Bob and his co-workers are paid? How do you know what his company's labor rates are?


I know this - there is not ONE nonunion company in Southeastern MAss. paying it's labor Boston prevailing wages.



> Now you are just talking out of your a$$, Bob works in Massachusetts (as do I) and journeymen (MA has state license required) to apprentice(someone who is unlicensed) ratios are by law 1:1 and are strictly enforced by the state. So 12 helpers to one journeyman doesn't happen, some shady companies might try it, but it doesn't last long. Once the state gets involved the penalties are severe.


Murder is illegal too but it happens everyday and sometimes they get away with it. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen and sure as heck doesn't mean the instances are "rare." Now let's face it - contractors, union or not, are no angels. Generally you won't find your doctor or dentist or accountant engaging in everyday criminal acts with their business, but contractors? Contractors are well known to make their entire living and sometimes entire profit margians from breaking the laws, be they labor laws or otherwise. Bob may very well hold to the 1 to 1 ratio, but in BOSTON it's 3 to 1. And don't parade 1 to 1 as if that were some wonderful thing - 1 to 1 means every 5 years you have made another a JW, it's unsustainable and it does to the industry the same thing the Mexicans are doing to concrete finishers in Texas. 

Bob want to bring his 1-to-1 ratio into Boston, of course. And therein lies the unlevel playing field, because what the heck does Bob care about the local labor and their standard of living? Bob cares about Bob. Apparently, peole who want better standards stand in his way. Too bad Bob... too bad.



> Oh yeah, thank God for the IBEW, if it weren't for them we would all still be making 10 cents a day, no safety regulations, 16 hour days, no lunch breaks. Yep, they single handedly saved the day!


Your exaggerations notwithstanding, look towards the South say... South of New Jersey or even Southern New Jersey and you can see the effect of rampant nonunionism on workers AND the contractors. It is overall negative. During the building boom in Florida and the Carolinas contractors went bust falling over themselves in their race to the bottom. 

In the 80's I earned $17.90 an hour, with pension and medical bennies, roping houses on Long Island. Nonunion doing the same thing for LESS than 1/2 the hourly wage only. But the cost difference to the developers was similar. So don't tell me the public or the customers suffer due to unions - the anti-union naysayers aren't bawling about the concerns and the plight of the general public or the customers of the world, their passion is derived from their loss of what they feel they're entitled to exclusively - the largest piece of the pie they can get their hands on. And they see what union workers earn and they see how much THEY can siphon from that by the use of their own lesser paid workforce and just salivate at the prospect... 



> Again, typical union drivel. You have no idea what you are talking about. *Not every open shop operates this way. *_*I take this to mean you agree MANY do, so, how is this typical union drivel?* _I know the company Bob works for, and this is not the case with them. They are a larger than average company, pay their guys well, supply the tools needed, good benefits.


They don't pay Boston's prevailing wage nor participate on that higher standard of 3 to 1 ratio. 



> You've never heard of a police detail? They are not free, the general public does not foot the bill for details, the contractor or customer does.


Only when they're HIRED. Why would anyone be forced to? The claim here suggests that were Bob's company to do this job a police detail would be necessary. I think he's hysterical.



> The customer didn't "replace" Bob's company because they were uncomfortable with them. They were forced to by the other trade unions threats of a work slow down and other union BS tactics (at the request of the IBEW I'm sure).


You don't know any of this, typical nonunion sour-grape drivel is what I call it. Bob's company purposely invited to bid just to get the union shops prices down, knowing nonunion is bidding too. Nothing more or less. Bob's shop never had a chance of being awarded this job. The "fake out" award is either BS or was just more strongarm tactic by the owner to leverage an even cheaper bid from the actual union contractor. 



> The owner decided it wasn't worth the trouble, because he knew the unions (both IBEW and others) would make sure it *was* trouble if the customer didn't comply. Typical union thuggery, nothing else!


Labor, once united is a powerful and formidable force. If this is too distasteful for your or Bob's liking I suggest you engage in some other business where organized labor is not part and parcel to, and has no affect on your business or your livlihood. Don't buy a farm if you don't like the smell of manure. If I'm to believe all of Bob's postings, the only reason his larger than average shop "pays well" and complies with labor laws is to keep the employees happy and the union out. Were the union to disappear tomorrow I assure you, his shop will go the way of a "typical" shop in Georgia or Texas in a heartbeat.


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> *Quote: FINALLY WE AGREE! Now, YOU pay ALL of your electricians prevailing wages ALL THE TIME, or more, and your shop cannot have any more than one apprentice from year 1-5 for every 3 journeymen it employs. You provide a benefit package exactly identical in cost and provisions that the union does. *
> 
> *I think one of my apprentices could outperform most of your union journeyman.*


It wouldn't suprise me at all that you pay your journeymen apprentice wages.


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> I didn't read anything in his post stating uinions and union members are considered organized crime.... Both sides have their share of IDIOTS. But if you read all the posts on this thread you can truly sense the arrogance from the union side of the argument. Anyone stating anything against the union is lambasted - reminds me of debates between Republicans and Democrats - It's never truly a debate.


Disagreeing with someone else's position, or refusing to bend their way doesn't define "lambasted."


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> I am amazed at how lawn guy knows how much money everyone is being paid and how they structure their business models. I think he should be a business owner....


You're right PEC... a nonunion shop from Rural Mass is paying higher wages than a union shop in Boston.

I was born at night, but not last night.


----------



## PECGeorge

I don't see it. I think you are either being hypocritical or willfully ignorant. Looking from a truly non-biased position I see arrogance and insults from *BOTH* sides.

I have been on both sides - I was an IBEW member for 10 years and out of those 4 were as a NECA contractor. I am now a non union contractor. I believe skilled labor should be paid fair wages and benefits. I pay my employees a very good wage and all of them are licensed or going through an apprenticeship program. A well learned worker is worth more than a hack. That being said, I throw some jabs on this thread, just because it's fun to break up the tension between two sets of people who go to the extremes to get their point across. I have several very good friends that are union guys, we have a good time, we help each other out when needed. Not all union guys are thugs and not all non union guys are scabs. 

I deal with scumball contractors on both sides of the tracks - I wish there were a more amicable way to work together and not be undercut by a guy who pays his journeyman $8 an hour - or even $18 an hour. 

I have been in the trenches and worked for both non and union shops before - you can't paint a broad stroke across everyone and say that is how it is. I have had great union employees and I have had sucky union employees. I have also had the same non union - the person makes the difference, not who he is affiliated with.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> Yes, at all.
> 
> Your own words:
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of playing by the rules of free enterprise, you expect everyone to play by the Union rules.


Free enterprise includes a segment of the workforce forming unions 480.

(Just in case you didn't know that.)


----------



## oldman

sparkall said:


> Ok, so all unions and union members are considered organized crime now?
> 
> Are you going to backpedal this like you did in the other thread?


So, reading comprehension just not a strong suit, huh?

Don't put your miscredit me with you mistaken conclusions


----------



## PECGeorge

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're right PEC...
> 
> I was born at night, but not last night.


Thanx LawnGuy... By the way, what time were you born?


----------



## oldman

PECGeorge said:


> Thanx LawnGuy... By the way, what time were you born?


6:66pm


----------



## LGLS

PECGeorge said:


> I don't see it. I think you are either being hypocritical or willfully ignorant. Looking from a truly non-biased position I see arrogance and insults from *BOTH* sides.
> 
> I have been on both sides - I was an IBEW member for 10 years and out of those 4 were as a NECA contractor. I am now a non union contractor. I believe skilled labor should be paid fair wages and benefits.


This is all fine and good. So, how do you determine what constitutes fair? Since in the end it is you, and the employee can take it or leave it, I say it is not fair. This is the bane of the union / nonunion disagreement. 



> I pay my employees a very good wage and all of them are licensed or going through an apprenticeship program. A well learned worker is worth more than a hack.


So does every other nonunion contractor here, didn't you know that? 



> That being said, I throw some jabs on this thread, just because it's fun to break up the tension between two sets of people who go to the extremes to get their point across. I have several very good friends that are union guys, we have a good time, we help each other out when needed. Not all union guys are thugs and not all non union guys are scabs.
> 
> I deal with scumball contractors on both sides of the tracks - I wish there were a more amicable way to work together and not be undercut by a guy who pays his journeyman $8 an hour - or even $18 an hour.


There is. Everybody on a level playing field, with appropriate professional representation from both the contractor's side and the worker's side. Not a free-for-all race to the bottom. 



> I have been in the trenches and worked for both non and union shops before - you can't paint a broad stroke across everyone and say that is how it is. I have had great union employees and I have had sucky union employees. I have also had the same non union - the person makes the difference, not who he is affiliated with.


That said (and very well I may add) you know as well as I if every contractor were nonunion the only thing to compete for is the least paid workforce. 

Look at all the competition in retail - what are their wages, and how many retire with a pension from Target?


----------



## Advanced37

PECGeorge said:


> I didn't read anything in his post stating uinions and union members are considered organized crime.... Both sides have their share of IDIOTS. But if you read all the posts on this thread you can truly sense the arrogance from the union side of the argument. Anyone stating anything against the union is lambasted - reminds me of debates between Republicans and Democrats - It's never truly a debate.


I agree both sides of any argument has IDIOTS, and the bashing and arrogance is *bothways*... The non Union guys bash the Union guys non stop, and the the Union guys bash back. Not a lot progress or good discussion, just bashing. Might as well be the house of representatives...:no::no::no:


----------



## sparkall

oldman said:


> So, reading comprehension just not a strong suit, huh?
> 
> Don't put your miscredit me with you mistaken conclusions


Speaking of comprehension, you want to give that last sentence another try?


----------



## Advanced37

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm quite proud to be a part of it Bob. And to some "normal folks" Walmart is a good thing. I happen to disagree. Importing cheap goods is a good thing. I disagree. Mexicans finishing concrete for 10 bucks an hour is a good thing. I disagree.
> 
> In your world, you get the crumbs. In mine, me and my family eat first and foremost, and then you figure out how to profit from the process.


Yeah its the "Walmarting of AMERICA" coming to a town near you....


----------



## sparkall

I hear what you're saying PECGeorge, and agree.


PECGeorge said:


> I deal with scumball contractors on both sides of the tracks - I wish there were a more amicable way to work together and not be undercut by a guy who pays his journeyman $8 an hour - or even $18 an hour.


The problem is that we have people like oldman who run EC's here in NJ (a state with super high cost of living) who pay their journeyman around $18/hr. And then they complain that men join the union so they could actually afford to buy a home and live above the poverty level while working a skilled trade.


----------



## oldman

sparkall said:


> Speaking of comprehension, you want to give that last sentence another try?


. Damn blackberry

Don't miscredit me...yada yada yada.


----------



## william1978

oldman said:


> . Damn blackberry
> 
> Don't miscredit me...yada yada yada.


 You posting off of a blackberry?


----------



## sparkall

william1978 said:


> You posting off of a blackberry?


I'm posting from my iPhone.

Let's get into a phone war next!


----------



## william1978

sparkall said:


> I'm posting from my iPhone.
> 
> Let's get into a phone war next!


 I would have a hard time posting off either one of those.


----------



## sparkall

william1978 said:


> I would have a hard time posting off either one of those.


It's no different than typing out a text message.


----------



## oldman

sparkall said:


> I'm posting from my iPhone.
> 
> Let's get into a phone war next!


AT&T sucks


----------



## oldman

william1978 said:


> You posting off of a blackberry?


Yepper. If I only posted from a computer, I'd only have a dozen posts


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Not really I do work for open shops and unions around the country I can AS YOU CAN only speak from experience.
> 
> I am saying in my experience not only have I never heard of this but in my experience I THINK YOU ARE BS'ing, to cover your argument.
> 
> I think I can do a web search and find unions bullying open shop, I can do a web search and find owners bullying organizers, and MAYBE you can do a web search and post a link to open shop men bullying union men.
> 
> If you do I will apologize,



The stats are right here to be found,

http://www.nlrb.gov/

Latter when I get home I'll post a copy of the petition sent to me from the NLRB,guaranteeing me my rights under the NLRA signed by the employer after he was found guilty of refusing them.

Here's another link from the NLRB you have to do some searching but the stats are in there.

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/annual reports/NLRB2008.pdf

I don't mind proving myself.No need to apologize.


----------



## RyanB

EBFD6 said:


> Oh yeah, thank God for the IBEW, if it weren't for them we would all still be making 10 cents a day, no safety regulations, 16 hour days, no lunch breaks. Yep, they single handedly saved the day!


From the history of the IBEW:



> The men got together at the end of each long workday and talked about the toil and conditions for workers in the electrical industry. The story was the same everywhere. The work was hard; the hours long; the pay small. It was common for a lineman to risk his life on the high lines 12 hours a day in any kind of weather, seven days a week, for the meager sum of 15 to 20 cents an hour. Two dollars and 50 cents a day was considered an excellent wage for wiremen, and many men were forced to accept work for $8.00 a week.
> 
> There was no apprenticeship training, and safety standards were nonexistent. In some areas the death rate for linemen was one out of every two hired, and nationally the death rate for electrical workers was twice that of the national average for all other industries.


----------



## PECGeorge

I think the union is like all other programs - it started off with the people in mind and as time and politics progressed, it lost sight of it's original intention. The main reason I am not a union shop is because I couldn't stand having to pay someone (many someones) to tell me what I could or couldn't pay for my workers and benefits. I like my benefits package much better than what the union was forcing me to pay for. My employees like the benefits and bonus packages they get for performance - incentive is still a good thing in the workplace - competition is a good thing.

There are still always going to be scurbdogs out there who try to cut corners and screw the employees and their customers - they won't last - problem is someone else will take their place - and life goes on.


----------



## oldman

brian john said:


> and MAYBE you can do a web search and post a link to open shop men bullying union men.
> 
> If you do I will apologize,





slickvic277 said:


> The stats are right here to be found,
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/
> 
> Latter when I get home I'll post a copy of the petition sent to me from the NLRB,guaranteeing me my rights under the NLRA signed by the employer after he was found guilty of refusing them.
> 
> Here's another link from the NLRB you have to do some searching but the stats are in there.
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/annual reports/NLRB2008.pdf
> 
> I don't mind proving myself.No need to apologize.


the NLRB has nothing about non-union men bullying union men...


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're right PEC... a nonunion shop from Rural Mass is paying higher wages than a union shop in Boston.
> 
> I was born at night, but not last night.


PEC based in "rural Mass"??? Now that's funny. This just keeps getting better. :laughing: When will it end? :laughing:


----------



## oldman

RyanB said:


> From the history of the IBEW:



"Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer."

"History does nothing; it does not possess immense riches, it does not fight battles. It is men, real, living, who do all this."

"Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workingmen of all countries, unite!"

"Nothing can have value without being an object of utility."

"Sell a man a fishhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/k/karlmarx387123.html#, he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."

"The more the division of labor and the application of machinery extend, the more does competition extend among the workers, the more do their wages shrink together."


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> PEC based in "rural Mass"??? Now that's funny. This just keeps getting better. :laughing: When will it end? :laughing:


when you believe the quotes i posted above:laughing:


----------



## Advanced37

slickvic277 said:


> I'm not going to dispute what your saying as a lie,because I know it happens.But I have been threatened and intimidated,bullied by non union contractors.Again it goes both ways.


I can attest to this. After I got out of the service I worked doing residential electric, plumbing and heating for about a year in upstate NY. Then we moved to Maine. I tried to get into one of the locals and I was told there was no work. (I did this all over the phone) So I found an ad online and sent in my resume to this non union company. I got hired and worked for like year. Then a couple of the apprentices I was working with were somehow in touch with a different local and they started talking to everybody about turning the shop and getting everybody to join the IBEW. I was a willing participant. The pay increase and benefits alone were worth it to me. But some of the guys who had worked for this company for years were down right combative against joining, and having any of us join. They were screaming and cussing at all the pro IBEW guys, telling us how bad it was going to be. All the crap you read in these blogs were all the same stories we were all told and threatened with. One guy threatened to push me over on the ladder I was on (it was a 12 footer and he pushed it while I was on it) during a heated discussion. Each side was trying to lobby the other. The owner was an absolute asshole about it in the begining. It pretty much came down to all the "new guys" which had probably less than 5 years with the company, and all the old timers who had anywhere from 5 to 25 years at odds. The company had taken on a couple of big jobs, and manned up in the previous 5 years. So they turned the company. Some of the old timers quit outright, vowing never to be unionized. Others joined because the tide had turned, and others like me were more than happy to join. So my experience was the only things that really changed were my pay and benefits, and safety started to exist. We worked the same job. After a while some things changed and I left for greener pastures.


----------



## PECGeorge

Peter D said:


> PEC based in "rural Mass"??? Now that's funny. This just keeps getting better. :laughing: When will it end? :laughing:


I'm not following you???? What makes you think I'm based in rural Mass. I hate cold weather....


----------



## brian john

oldman said:


> the NLRB has nothing about non-union men bullying union men...


I did a quick search and found nothing, I readily admit SOME contractors are SLOBS, just as some open shop men slobs and some union men are slobs. But I see nothing that states open shop men were bullying union men? Did I overlook something. 

My whole issue with this, I STATE ONCE AGAIN.

Is the narrow minded bigoted approach of some the union men. It defeats any positive work done by decent organizers that truly want EQUAL, good pay and bennies for all men.


----------



## user4818

PECGeorge said:


> I'm not following you???? What makes you think I'm based in rural Mass. I hate cold weather....


No, the company that Bob Badger works for is called PEC and is based in a suburb of Boston, not "rural Mass."


----------



## PECGeorge

I just want a Hoveround power scooter...


----------



## Bob Badger

PECGeorge said:


> I just want a Hoveround power scooter...



:laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> the NLRB has nothing about non-union men bullying union men...



*I NEVER SAID THE MEN,*I said the contractors and management.Look at the numbers of unfair labor practices levied against business and against labor.The difference is staggering.

There's a whole report!

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/annual reports/NLRB2008.pdf

I know what has happened to me and I stand by what I said.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> *I NEVER SAID THE MEN,*I said the contractors and management.Look at the numbers of unfair labor practices levied against business and against labor.The difference is staggering.
> 
> There's a whole report!
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/brochures/annual reports/NLRB2008.pdf
> 
> I know what has happened to me and I stand by what I said.


how many non-union contractors have bullied you since you've been a union electrician?

how many have picketed your site? 

don't change the rules now...


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> I did a quick search and found nothing, I readily admit SOME contractors are SLOBS, just as some open shop men slobs and some union men are slobs. But I see nothing that states open shop men were bullying union men? Did I overlook something.
> 
> My whole issue with this, I STATE ONCE AGAIN.
> 
> Is the narrow minded bigoted approach of some the union men. It defeats any positive work done by decent organizers that truly want EQUAL, good pay and bennies for all men.



This is the document that if an employer is ever signing then he is in deep sh*t.This was sent to me and several others after the contractor was found guilty of UFLP.I removed the bottom half with my name for my privacy.FWIW and never blaimed the men I have worked with,non union.It was always the contractor and his management.


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> how many non-union contractors have bullied you since you've been a union electrician?
> 
> how many have picketed your site?
> 
> don't change the rules now...



Non,that's one of the reasons I signed.Non union contractors don't picket.But the ABC and IECA are very active in fighting against the right of labor.


----------



## oldman

ahh, nevermind...maybe Brian John will have the patience to explain the difference to you...


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> ahh, nevermind...maybe Brian John will have the patience to explain the difference to you...



I don't need you or him to explain the difference to me.I'm fully aware.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> I don't need you or him to explain the difference to me.I'm fully aware.


obviously not...


----------



## user4818

slickvic277 said:


> But the ABC and IECA are very active in fighting against the right of labor.


Where do these ideas come from that "labor" has "rights" other than being treated according to the labor laws and being a paid an honest day's wage for an honest day's work? 

Talk like that smacks of entitlement mentality to me. Oh wait, that's what most of this thread has been about. :laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

Peter D said:


> Where do these ideas come from that "labor" has "rights" other than being treated according to the labor laws and being a paid an honest day's wage for an honest day's work?
> 
> Talk like that smacks of entitlement mentality to me. Oh wait, that's what most of this thread has been about. :laughing:



There not "ideas" or "entitlement" but rights that are written as laws.This thread has run it's course,so for the last time here are the "rights" as defined by law that you feel is "entitlement".

http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx

http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Right.../what_are_protected_concerted_activities.aspx

http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Rights/nlra_violations.aspx


----------



## user4818

slickvic277 said:


> There not "ideas" or "entitlement" but rights that are written as laws.This thread has run it's course,so for the last time here are the "rights" as defined by law that you feel is "entitlement".
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Right.../what_are_protected_concerted_activities.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Rights/nlra_violations.aspx


I think my point flew over your head at about mach 5. Nevermind.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> There not "ideas" or "entitlement" but rights that are written as laws.This thread has run it's course,so for the last time here are the "rights" as defined by law that you feel is "entitlement".
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Right.../what_are_protected_concerted_activities.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Rights/nlra_violations.aspx


you are defending apples, by proving oranges...what does this have to do with unions bullying non-union workers? picketing jobsites? etc?


----------



## 480sparky

slickvic277 said:


> There not "ideas" or "entitlement" but rights that are written as laws.This thread has run it's course,so for the last time here are the "rights" as defined by law that you feel is "entitlement".
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/workplace_rights/employee_rights.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Right.../what_are_protected_concerted_activities.aspx
> 
> http://www.nlrb.gov/Workplace_Rights/nlra_violations.aspx


 
So where in those does it address my right to make $100/hour, get 6 weeks paid vacation per annum, free vison, dental & medical insurance, a company vehicle to drive home every night, company cell phone, internet access, unreimbursed medical and childcare expenses tax accounts..........

All those appear to be is about organizing.


----------



## oldman

480sparky said:


> So where in those does it address my right to make $100/hour, get 6 weeks paid vacation per annum, free vison, dental & medical insurance, a company vehicle to drive home every night, company cell phone, internet access, unreimbursed medical and childcare expenses tax accounts..........
> 
> All those appear to be is about organizing.


and the right to use intimidation and coercion (sp?) against anyone who doesn't think you are worth all that?


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*

I have been in the workforce a long, long time. There are great workers and there are great owners, bosses,etc. There is, however the human element of some people wanting to be ABOVE the others. Sometimes those people who would take a cut in pay to be the BOSS are there in your midst and can make life miserable. The company may not even know how badly their people are being treated as was evident in the recent show BOSS UNDER COVER regarding Waste Management. Times were worse, but now are better for most of us because of unionism. HOWEVER, we, the workers must all remember that others not in unions are not our opponents. When we bicker amongst ourselves we take our eyes off of the PRIZE. Workers rights... We are all in this together.


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> and the right to use intimidation and coercion (sp?) against anyone who doesn't think you are worth all that?


And when did I intimidate or coerce anyone who didn't think I was worth that?







































Oh, that's right. You can't answer that................. because _it never happened_.








.


----------



## oldman

480sparky said:


> And when did I intimidate or coerce anyone who didn't think I was worth that?
> 
> Oh, that's right. You can't answer that................. because _it never happened_.
> 
> .


:laughing: don't make me argue pro-union picketing now:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> :laughing: don't make me argue pro-union picketing now:laughing:


 
Oh, I forgot... the unions NEVER EVER EVER EVER use intimidation and coercion. It's a well-known fact that us merit shop chumps just made up because we're so bitter about making 53¢ and hour with no bennies.


----------



## oldman

i have the answer....Kill Harrison Bergeron...and Viva la Handicapper General


----------



## paul d.

50 pages.


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> i have the answer....Kill Harrison Bergeron...and Viva la Handicapper General


 
The answer to what? Hollywood fiction?







Hey... 1000th post! :thumbup:


----------



## RyanB

oldman said:


> "Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer."
> 
> "History does nothing; it does not possess immense riches, it does not fight battles. It is men, real, living, who do all this."
> 
> "Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workingmen of all countries, unite!"
> 
> "Nothing can have value without being an object of utility."
> 
> "Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."
> 
> "The more the division of labor and the application of machinery extend, the more does competition extend among the workers, the more do their wages shrink together."


That's a really weak attempt at setting up a strawman. You can do better than that!

Congratulations on your ability to Google some random quotes.


----------



## oldman

RyanB said:


> That's a really weak attempt at setting up a strawman. You can do better than that!
> 
> Congratulations on your ability to Google some random quotes.


they are far from random...and they are setting up nothing...

do you know who said them?


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> they are far from random...and they are setting up nothing...
> 
> do you know who said them?


How about letting us in on The Big Secret......... as to what they mean?


----------



## oldman

480sparky said:


> How about letting us in on The Big Secret......... as to what they mean?


nah...


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> nah...


 
Oh, that's right.... I'm non-union scum not worthy of such Important Information.


----------



## oldman

480sparky said:


> Oh, that's right.... I'm non-union scum not worthy of such Important Information.


yeah, that's it....

or maybe it's the fact that they are ramblings of an idiot, and I can't decipher them:laughing:

but, since you offered, i'll stick with the former:laughing:


----------



## amptech

Karl Marx


----------



## oldman

amptech said:


> Karl Marx


yep...but they sound similar to what is being claimed in this thread...could just be me though...


----------



## amptech

I don't think its just you. Most rhetoric spouted from some of the extremists are worn out quotes from the likes of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and the like. Sad thing is, a lot of the White House Czars like to quote the same people.


----------



## oldman

amptech said:


> I don't think its just you. Most rhetoric spouted from some of the extremists are worn out quotes from the likes of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and the like. Sad thing is, a lot of the White House Czars like to quote the same people.


because when you don't know any better, it's easy to believe...


----------



## RyanB

oldman said:


> they are far from random...and they are setting up nothing...
> 
> do you know who said them?


NO WHO SAID DAT? :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> PEC based in "rural Mass"??? Now that's funny. This just keeps getting better. :laughing: When will it end? :laughing:


I was not referring to PEC's location. Put the drink down Peter... :whistling2:


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I was not referring to PEC's location. Put the drink down Peter... :whistling2:


Then what, pray tell, were you referring to? :001_huh:

Regarding drinks, might want to take your own advice on that one. :whistling2:


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> Then what, pray tell, were you referring to? :001_huh:
> 
> Regarding drinks, might want to take your own advice on that one. :whistling2:


don't question him...just accept it...it's less painful that way:laughing:


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> don't question him...just accept it...it's less painful that way:laughing:


He has a debased mind. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> how many non-union contractors have bullied you since you've been a union electrician?


The very presense of nonunion cuts into my wages. What's the bigger crime Oldman, getting bullied or stealing from someone?



> how many have picketed your site?


Who cares, protesting is legal.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The very presense of nonunion cuts into my wages. What's the bigger crime Oldman, getting bullied or stealing from someone?


You have no problem stealing from your employers with a work slowdown.


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Where do these ideas come from that "labor" has "rights" other than being treated according to the labor laws and being a paid an honest day's wage for an honest day's work?


What law says anything about "honest day's work" or "honest day's pay?" 

Labor has the right to organize and form unions and join unions. Once that happens, labor gets even more rights.


----------



## oldman

........


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What law says anything about "honest day's work" or "honest day's pay?"


You actually have to ask that question? You're not that dumb, are you? :001_huh:




> Labor has the right to organize and form unions and join unions. Once that happens, labor gets even more rights.


A man is entitled to nothing but what he works for. "Let those who not work, not eat."


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Then what, pray tell, were you referring to? :001_huh:
> 
> Regarding drinks, might want to take your own advice on that one. :whistling2:


I might, but I won't... :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> You have no problem stealing from your employers with a work slowdown.


Only after an employer stole from me.


----------



## Rudeboy

I mean, seriously.


----------



## 480sparky

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Only after an employer stole from me.


And what, that legally belonged to you, was stolen?


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> You actually have to ask that question? You're not that dumb, are you? :001_huh:


Yes, let's assume I'm that dumb - now answer it. (If you can...)



> A man is entitled to nothing but what he works for. "Let those who not work, not eat."


And "Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's..."


----------



## oldman

problem is, it's not only about the union for LGLS...it's about the 'right' union...

not the wrong union


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes, let's assume I'm that dumb - now answer it. (If you can...)


Simple - a man offers a job with a wage and benefit package, and the employee accepts or rejects it. That must be done within the confines of established labor laws. What is fair and just is up to the employee and employer. 




> And "Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's..."


Nice try, but that's about paying taxes, not labor unions.


----------



## LGLS

480sparky said:


> And what, that legally belonged to you, was stolen?


In this instance, a contractor was deducting employee contributions to 401k deferred salary, and 401k loan repayments directly from our paychecks but not actually sending the money to the 401k plan. After a number of weeks of no-show loan repayments employees began receiving letters of default. 

It is illegal for an employer to withold contributions but not actually pay those contributions.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> problem is, it's not only about the union for LGLS...it's about the 'right' union...
> 
> not the wrong union


 
Local 363 was not a union, it was a scam set up by a number of contractors. We appealed that decision and ultimately prevailed in that case, organized and became the official collective bargianing agent for the members of 363. 363 was decertified and some of it's member officers were eventually prosecuted.

Nice try Oldman but you're gonna have to do better than that.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Local 363 was not a union, it was a scam set up by a number of contractors. We appealed that decision and ultimately prevailed in that case, organized and became the official collective bargianing agent for the members of 363. 363 was decertified and some of it's member officers were eventually prosecuted.
> 
> Nice try Oldman but you're gonna have to do better than that.


good to know...so 363 is now IBEW?

what about the rest of the USWA?

edit to add - apparently 363 has been IBEW for awhile now...good to know that choice is alive and well....


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> good to know...so 363 is now IBEW?
> 
> what about the rest of the USWA?


The "Local 363" was only "affiliated" with the USWA.
Google that boondoggle if you have a few hours to kill...



> edit to add - apparently 363 has been IBEW for awhile now...good to know that choice is alive and well....


They chose us willingly in a free election.


----------



## oldman

nah, not gonna google that..don't care that much...

however, good to know...

but 1 question...if both locals are IBEW and local 3 is in charge of collective bargaining for 363....why/how is TC undercutting Comstock on railroad jobs?


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> nah, not gonna google that..don't care that much...
> 
> however, good to know...
> 
> but 1 question...if both locals are IBEW and local 3 is in charge of collective bargaining for 363....why/how is TC undercutting Comstock on railroad jobs?


I can't answer that, I have no information on the issue.


----------



## Frasbee

The IBEW should woo non-union contractors into joining with gift baskets of chocolate chip cookies.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> In my opinion no one is entitled to more pay than what the market determines. Any contract that forces an artificially higher wage is the equivalent to a hand out.
> 
> You won't like that thought but if you take the time to be honest with yourself you know it to be true.


Spokesman for the people that drive the wages down..:laughing:

What do you have to say about those that work for much less than what the market has determined to be sustainable? :whistling2:


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> Spokesman for the people that drive the wages down..:laughing:
> 
> Only if the artificially inflated above a fair market value.
> 
> What do you have to say about those that work for much less than what the market has determined to be sustainable? :whistling2:


While not wise IMO, hardly something they should put in jail for. Of course some folks might want to jail them. 

Are you against freedom of choice?


----------



## Southeast Power

brian john said:


> While not wise IMO, hardly something they should put in jail for. Of course some folks might want to jail them.
> 
> Are you against freedom of choice?


Its just that the same people that cry about Mexicans coming here and working cheap are the same people that go into someone's established market and work below that areas sustainable compensation and want to call it something else.

I just don't know if it should be described as stupid or ignorant.

I guess you could say someone could have a choice of doing something stupid but not really doing something out of ignorance.

Are we free to make a stupid choice? Yes, I believe so.
Are we free to accept the consequences? Yes we are.


Are we free to educate ourselves above ignorance? Yes we are.


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> Its just that the same people that cry about Mexicans coming here and working cheap are the same people that go into someone's established market and work below that areas sustainable compensation and want to call it something else.


Now you are comparing apples and horses. One is legal the other is illegal. Now if the legal workers are doing this without permits, licenses or paying local fees then they too are illegal.



> I guess you could say someone could have a choice of doing something stupid but not really doing something out of ignorance.



Either or still a choice.



> Are we free to make a stupid choice? Yes, I believe so.
> Are we free to accept the consequences? Yes we are.
> 
> 
> Are we free to educate ourselves above ignorance? Yes we are.


Yep!


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Spokesman for the people that drive the wages down..:laughing:


I feel better about my position than I would if I relied on extortion to get my wage.


----------



## brian john

Bob Badger said:


> I feel better about my position than I would if I relied on extortion to get my wage.


From what I can make of this post is most open shop men say play nice and let me decide.

Some union men say we need to change our operating tactics to accommodate changes in society and play nice.

Other union men say NO, stiff the owners, force workers or the workers company to be union.

SUPER UNION LAWYERS correct me where I am wrong.

To me the 1st two options seem fairer??????


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I feel better about my position than I would if I relied on extortion to get my wage.


Extortion? More like leverage.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Extortion? More like leverage.


A little bit of both from both sides of this issue, management and labor have employed tactics that are legitimate, helpful and in some cases underhanded and deceitful.

When they/we work together I think both sides will/do benefit.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Extortion? More like leverage.


Go check the definition of extortion. It applies to more than illegal activities.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Frasbee said:


> The IBEW should woo non-union contractors into joining with gift baskets of chocolate chip cookies.


:laughing:. Had too much to drink at Endymion?


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> A little bit of both from both sides of this issue, management and labor have employed tactics that are legitimate, helpful and in some cases underhanded and deceitful.
> 
> When they/we work together I think both sides will/do benefit.


They do, unfortunately, many contractors and some of their brainwashed employees groomed from day 1 to dislike unions don't see it that way from the outside looking in.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Go check the definition of extortion. It applies to more than illegal activities.


It could, but not in the context it was used here.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It could, but not in the context it was used here.


That is just your opinion and I am sure you know how much I value it.:whistling2:


----------



## BryanMD

not to interrupt this fascinating episode of neener-neener...

but LGLS you need to empty your inbox.


----------



## Bob Badger

Am I Pee Wee or the Fat one? :thumbup:


----------



## brian john

Bob Badger said:


> Am I Pee Wee or the Fat one? :thumbup:



The answer to that is 

You been choking your chicken in a movie theater lately?


----------



## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> Am I Pee Wee or the Fat one? :thumbup:


Well, you're not skinny. :whistling2:


----------



## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> The answer to that is
> 
> You been choking your chicken in a movie theater lately?



Well yes, but no, not in a movie theater.

While in line at the supply house with the good tool display but never at a movie theater.


----------



## oldman

Sadly, I don't think Bob is joking


----------



## AFOREMA1

I've been involved in unions all my life from the Carpenters to the Teamsters and the UAW and they all have their shadier aspects of how they work on getting things done but there is also a lot of positives to be said for them as well.


----------



## brian john

AFOREMA1 said:


> I've been involved in unions all my life from the Carpenters to the Teamsters and the UAW and they all have their shadier aspects of how they work on getting things done but there is also a lot of positives to be said for them as well.


GD now there is the post I have been waiting for, BLESS YOU (and some will curse you) for the truth.


----------



## oldman

brian john said:


> GD now there is the post I have been waiting for, BLESS YOU (and some will curse you) for the truth.


Brian John, i honestly can't tell if you are serious or being facetious...


----------



## LGLS

AFOREMA1 said:


> I've been involved in unions all my life from the Carpenters to the Teamsters and the UAW and they all have their shadier aspects of how they work on getting things done but there is also a lot of positives to be said for them as well.


You mean, they're _not_ angels?


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You mean, they're _not_ angels?


you've convinced me that the IBEW is full of angels...please don't tell me you lied...


----------



## brian john

oldman said:


> Brian John, i honestly can't tell if you are serious or being facetious...


Serious in a semi humorous way.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> I feel better about my position than I would if I relied on extortion to get my wage.


You do not seem to realize how the wages in your area were established
A rising tide raises all boats:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> You do not seem to realize how the wages in your area were established


Actually I am well aware that the union has raised my wage, I can't help that. The union has also raised the costs of goods I buy, forgive me if I don't say thanks. :no:




> A rising tide raises all boats:thumbsup:


They must hand out that saying at the hall,:laughing: it is not true.

For all the boats raising with one tide there are just as many falling with the opposite tide.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Actually I am well aware that the union has raised my wage, I can't help that. The union has also raised the costs of goods I buy, forgive me if I don't say thanks. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> They must hand out that saying at the hall,:laughing: it is not true.
> 
> For all the boats raising with one tide there are just as many falling with the opposite tide.


The phrase is attributed to John F Kennedy :thumbsup:


Im curious as to which union made product you buy:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Im curious as to which union made product you buy:laughing:


Don't be so narrow minded.

Teamsters delivery the goods, I own a Truck that was made by UAW members, imports are unloaded at the docks by who? 

Everytime peoples wages go up the costs to consumers goes up as well. Unless you live in some sort of fantasy world of unlimited cash or you think the company mangers will allow less profit.

It is just as much picking the consumers pocket as taxes are.


----------



## Southeast Power

I always wondered why those Japanese cars cost so much.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> I always wondered why those Japanese cars cost so much.


That has no meaning at all.

It still remains a fact that all wages end up coming out of the consumers pocket. If the wages are forced higher by a contract that money comes from us.


----------



## oldman

Bob - economics have no place in this debate.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> That has no meaning at all.
> 
> It still remains a fact that all wages end up coming out of the consumers pocket. If the wages are forced higher by a contract that money comes from us.


The more money the working class makes, the better the economy. The working class is the spending class.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The more money the working class makes, the better the economy. The working class is the spending class.


Which means the higher prices paid for products come out of the working classes pockets more then the wealthy class.

You seem to have this mistaken belief that wishing, wanting or even getting more money creates more money. The money always comes from someone.


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> Bob - economics have no place in this debate.


:thumbup:


You are right, what an idiot I am for thinking higher wages effect ofter parts of the economy. :laughing:


----------



## Zog

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> In this instance, a contractor was deducting employee contributions to 401k deferred salary, and 401k loan repayments directly from our paychecks but not actually sending the money to the 401k plan. After a number of weeks of no-show loan repayments employees began receiving letters of default.
> 
> It is illegal for an employer to withold contributions but not actually pay those contributions.


I had that exact same thing happening at the last place I worked, an IBEW shop. That is one of the main reasons I left, along with several other guys. Never did get my 401k money.


----------



## boulengerina

RIVETER said:


> In N.C. don't people in the workplace have the ability to form, or join a union if the majority of the workers want to? Am I being naive?


Sure do! And that's the only reason we make the money we do! And we have work! Without any illegals on the job! Imagine that! WOW!:laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

RUSSIAN said:


> And how much are the wages in texas? or any other right to work state?
> The CE/CW program is going to destroy our wages anyway so it doesn't much matter anymore



Actually, they have gone up here in NC quite a bit, due to the fact that we actually have work now. My home local is working more JW's now than ever before, and we got a 90 cent raise last September, in the middle of the recession! The raise was a reflection of our increased market share, which in turn is a reflection of our increased competitiveness, which is DIRECTLY attributable to the CW/CE program.

I didn't like it either, but given a chance to work (we had no choice... the IP forced our local) it does. I assume that you are a JW, and as such, have nothing to worry about as long as you have the skills to back up your classification! The CW/CE program didn't start this recession. Washington and the Banks did.


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> I had that exact same thing happening at the last place I worked, an IBEW shop. That is one of the main reasons I left, along with several other guys. Never did get my 401k money.



Funny thing, Zog... the IBEW in Charlotte has NO 401K plan:laughing:! Liar liar pants on fire! If a company gave you one, then your issue is with the company! There is ABSOLUTELY no mention of 401anything in our contract in Charlotte!

Get your facts straight, bubba.


----------



## Zog

boulengerina said:


> Funny thing, Zog... the IBEW in Charlotte has NO 401K plan:laughing:! Liar liar pants on fire! If a company gave you one, then your issue is with the company! There is ABSOLUTELY no mention of 401anything in our contract in Charlotte!
> 
> Get your facts straight, bubba.


I never have been an IBEW member in Charlotte, only in Detroit, local 58. So why don't you get your facts straight before you start calling people liars.


----------



## JackBoot

jrannis said:


> Im curious as to which union made product you buy:laughing:


Weren't you the one that said "A rising tide raises all boats"????

So that would mean even non-union made products have a higher cost due to overpriced labor.


----------



## boulengerina

Most of the guys that have negative things to say about the Union here on this post seem to come from Union-dominated areas, such as NY and MA. That's understandable, as they are going to have the most exposure to big locals and their (sometimes) tasteless tactics.

*BUT*, if it sux so bad where you are (and i mean this seriously... not being an @$$), why are you there? My only guess, and please correct me if I am wrong, is the wages. But the wages and construction cost are attribuable to the Union, right? Bob even admitted that last week!

The Union is more than one Local. Things are different everywhere, because of the autonomy afforded the various Locals through the International Office, and our constitution. 

I am not trying to be pro-Union here, nor am I trying to be anti. But it seems to me from the mentalities of the various contractors here that they would hire the cheapest labor possible, for the most part. There are ALWAYS exceptions. And the chief complaint about the Union is thuggery, and I can understand that. The Union has no business partaking in such activity.

So where do we go from here? A national Right to Work (for Nothing) Law was mentioned... How about that? Then the Unions would lose the teeth that they still have, and wages nationally would plummet. Sound good?

How about National abolishment of Right to Work (for Nothing)? Wages go up, all workers fall under CBA's (eventually), and the economy slows to a crawl, and jobs become scarce? Sound good?

It will not play out either way... just threw it out there as "food for thought". I believe that the Union workers need to quit beating their chests, step up, and do the job they are capable of doing. I believe in freedom of choice, but I also believe in a level playing field. And you may take that any way you wish. 


But the outline followed by the American worker everyday on the job was put forth by Unions. Things like overtime, the 8 hour workday, sick leave, and the abolishment of child labor ALL CAME FROM THE UNIONS. None of that was given to the American worker by good-hearted contractors or employers. Without Unions, there is nothing to stop the regression of this nation to a third-world sweat-shop.

I will defer all further comments on my behalf to the thoughts of President Abraham Lincoln on this very matter:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."-Abe Lincoln

"Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed. "-Abe Lincoln

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."-Abe Lincoln

We can ALL learn from this.:thumbsup:


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> I never have been an IBEW member in Charlotte, only in Detroit, local 58. So why don't you get your facts straight before you start calling people liars.



58 doesn't use a 401K either:no:!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott

Bob Badger said:


> Which means the higher prices paid for products come out of the working classes pockets more then the wealthy class.
> 
> You seem to have this mistaken belief that wishing, wanting or even getting more money creates more money. The money always comes from someone.


Bob, you'd be better off talking about this with a squirrel. The entitlement attitude the Unions foster is too well entrenched to counter with facts and common sense. 


We are living in the gi'mme generation. It's pathetic.

What I find completely disingenuous is all the denouncing of union "tactics" in this thread. You can bet your ass all of these thugs would be out there doing (and you know what you do) whatever they have to do to support their union.


----------



## 10492

boulengerina said:


> I am not trying to be pro-Union here, nor am I trying to be anti. But it seems to me from the mentalities of the various contractors here that they would hire the cheapest labor possible, for the most part.


It may sound as if I am picking on you, but rest assured I am not.

The problem with the above statement you posted is kinda two-fold.

One being, you see everything as an employee. You can not, or maybe you chose not to, see things from an employer side. You have no experience in seeing things from a employer side, do you. 
This makes you ignorant of employers issues. I realize that was a negative word to use, but I can't think of a better one to explain this point. Your views are one sided.

Every employer here at this board, was an employee at one time.

Not every employee here, was an employer.

Can you see this?


Secondly, I know of no business.....none...who has succeeded without the best people they could find, retain, and afford.

To use a blanket statement, " But it seems to me from the mentalities of the various contractors here that they would hire the cheapest labor possible, for the most part.", is so far from the truth. Granted that some positions can be done by a trained monkey, to be successful, you need to surround yourself with successful people. The best you can find and afford.

Building a business with the "cheapest labor you can find" will get you no-where. 
This is why I referenced you never being an employer and having experience in building a business.


Cheers.


----------



## JackBoot

electricmanscott said:


> What I find completely disingenuous is all the denouncing of union "tactics" in this thread. You can bet your ass all of these thugs would be out there doing (and you know what you do) whatever they have to do to support their union.


That's not true. The last picket I went to (I got called, it was required) was a few months back in PA. I got there and saw the idiots walking as slow as they could in front of the trucks trying to enter the work site. They would walk across the front of the truck, then immediately turn around and walk back. They were causing traffic jams and acting like babies. I told the organizer that I was leaving because I wanted nothing to do with this and that I was embarrassed. 

Not every member of the union is a "thug" like you said and not every member follows along when they don't like the practices like you said they do. Your generalizations are no different than a union guy calling all non-union workers rats.


----------



## boulengerina

Dnkldorf said:


> You have no experience in seeing things from a employer side, do you.
> 
> Actually, I have quite a bit of experience building electrical construction shops. That's where we Union boys in the south get them... We build them.
> 
> Secondly, I know of no business.....none...who has succeeded without the best people they could find, retain, and afford.
> 
> To use a blanket statement, " But it seems to me from the mentalities of the various contractors here that they would hire the cheapest labor possible, for the most part.", is so far from the truth. Granted that some positions can be done by a trained monkey, to be successful, you need to surround yourself with successful people. The best you can find and afford.
> 
> Building a business with the "cheapest labor you can find" will get you no-where.
> This is why I referenced you never being an employer and having experience in building a business.
> 
> 
> Cheers.


And it sounds like you agree with me. What I am saying is that no one should hire the cheapest labor they can, as this leads to employee resentment and eventually, ruin.

I have never been an owner, but have had the pleasure of hiring and firing quite a bit. 

Sounds like you misinterpreted what I said... or I may have said it wrong! I type rather quickly, but not quick enough to keep up with my thoughts! 

Good day, and enjoy the snow:laughing:!


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> That's not true. The last picket I went to (I got called, it was required) was a few months back in PA. I got there and saw the idiots walking as slow as they could in front of the trucks trying to enter the work site. They would walk across the front of the truck, then immediately turn around and walk back. They were causing traffic jams and acting like babies. I told the organizer that I was leaving because I wanted nothing to do with this and that I was embarrassed.
> 
> Not every member of the union is a "thug" like you said and not every member follows along when they don't like the practices like you said they do. Your generalizations are no different than a union guy calling all non-union workers rats.



Jackboot, I think you did the right thing. Subversion is never good, but what you did goes beyond subversion (in a positive way). If we act as thugs, we will never have public sentiment. And if we just do our jobs to the best of our abilities, public sentiment will come to us. You sound like you get it!

We (members of the world's largest electrical Union) have done more to destry ourselves through such actions than the Chamber ever could. Stick to your guns, Jackboot. And get other guys to do it too. If we are gonna save ourselves, now is the time.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Which means the higher prices paid for products come out of the working classes pockets more then the wealthy class.
> 
> You seem to have this mistaken belief that wishing, wanting or even getting more money creates more money. The money always comes from someone.


Products aren't priced based on their cost, the market sets the price. A widget sells for 2.99 whether it costs .10 cents to make or .20 cents to make.

Manufacturers moved the production of electrical parts to Mexico. Did the prices come down to reflect that a worker is getting 2.00 a day instead of 20.00 an hour? No. 

You can stand by your trickle down theories all you want - we are seeing the result of the working class not getting their fair share while corporate profits soared.


----------



## LGLS

electricmanscott said:


> Bob, you'd be better off talking about this with a squirrel. The entitlement attitude the Unions foster is too well entrenched to counter with facts and common sense.
> 
> 
> We are living in the gi'mme generation. It's pathetic.
> 
> What I find completely disingenuous is all the denouncing of union "tactics" in this thread. You can bet your ass all of these thugs would be out there doing (and you know what you do) whatever they have to do to support their union.


Entitlement? Gi'mmee?
So unions are some kind of spoiled child-like entity for demanding decent wages and beneifts? Decent working conditions? Having a voice in the workplace and having professional representation and fair hearings?

Maybe you're off a bit - your mind too engrained in a plantation mentality.


----------



## user4818

LongIsland guy, would it be possible for you to just admit you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing and don't actually believe all you say?


----------



## Zog

boulengerina said:


> 58 doesn't use a 401K either:no:!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Our contract did, in leiu of the retirement plan that 58 had. Our contract stated our 401k had to meet or exceed thier retirement plan. I don't care what you googled, you were not there and have no clue what you are talking about. 

I also never said the missing funds were the unions fault, it was the company that was doing it, but the union did nothing to protect us. All they did was collect our dues, and when that company stopped paying our medical benifits the union did nothing to help us either. In fact, I never recieved any support from the IBEW on anything, they never did a single thing for me or any of my co-workers besides collect dues.


----------



## oldman

JackBoot said:


> Weren't you the one that said "A rising tide raises all boats"????
> 
> So that would mean even non-union made products have a higher cost due to overpriced labor.


shhhhh....quiet...


----------



## JackBoot

oldman said:


> shhhhh....quiet...


That's what I do best...


:thumbup:


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> LongIsland guy, would it be possible for you to just admit you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing and don't actually believe all you say?


that's why i love when he pops up:laughing:


----------



## Zog

I have not read every post but would like to address the OP's question. 

All it takes to have a bad rep is a few bad apples, the guys getting drunk at lunch, sleeping on the job, holding up jobs so they can get more hours, those sort of things. The majority of the IBEW guys I have worked with were really good guys, trying to do the best job they could and take care of thier families the best they could. But that, 5, maybe 10% of the other guys are what gives the IBEW such a bad rep. But it seems they are protected by the same union they are making look so bad, no matter what they do it is very hard to fire them or better yet boo them out of the union via a review board. 

Perhaps the IBEW should take a close look at how they deal with people that do all of those things that make it look so bad and stop trying to protect them. It should be a privledge to be an IBEW brother/sister and get the training, wages, benifits it offers, NOT A RIGHT.


----------



## JackBoot

Zog said:


> I have not read every post but would like to address the OP's question.
> 
> All it takes to have a bad rep is a few bad apples, the guys getting drunk at lunch, sleeping on the job, holding up jobs so they can get more hours, those sort of things. The majority of the IBEW guys I have worked with were really good guys, trying to do the best job they could and take care of thier families the best they could. But that, 5, maybe 10% of the other guys are what gives the IBEW such a bad rep. But it seems they are protected by the same union they are making look so bad, no matter what they do it is very hard to fire them or better yet boo them out of the union via a review board.
> 
> Perhaps the IBEW should take a close look at how they deal with people that do all of those things that make it look so bad and stop trying to protect them. It should be a privledge to be an IBEW brother/sister and get the training, wages, benifits it offers, NOT A RIGHT.


I completely agree with EVERYTHING you said except for this part:

_ "no matter what they do it is very hard to fire them" _ 

I have NEVER had a problem getting rid of a troublemaker or poor worker. It's as simple as this: "Here's your check, get out of here." That's it, done. One time (and only once) I was asked by an agent if I would reconsider, I answered "No, he cost the contractor way too much money as it is, I'm definitely not taking him back." 

This is where the IBEW is very different from labor unions, this isn't the UAW. The hall (at least most of them) are embarrassed by the slackers.

Like I said, I agree with everything else you said, and think there should be a better system to get rid of repeat offenders.


----------



## Zog

JackBoot said:


> I completely agree with EVERYTHING you said except for this part:
> 
> _"no matter what they do it is very hard to fire them" _
> 
> I have NEVER had a problem getting rid of a troublemaker or poor worker. It's as simple as this: "Here's your check, get out of here." That's it, done. One time (and only once) I was asked by an agent if I would reconsider, I answered "No, he cost the contractor way too much money as it is, I'm definitely not taking him back."
> 
> This is where the IBEW is very different from labor unions, this isn't the UAW. The hall (at least most of them) are embarrassed by the slackers.
> 
> Like I said, I agree with everything else you said, and think there should be a better system to get rid of repeat offenders.


But your guy just got put back into the system to become someone elses problem. 

I think my old local in Detroit is run more like the UAW for obvious reasons than other locals are. Just the impression I got from my time there.


----------



## JackBoot

Zog said:


> But your guy just got put back into the system to become someone elses problem.


 That's part of what you said that I agreed with. I went on to say that there should be something in place to get rid of those problem workers.

I was only commenting on the part where you said that it's hard to fire them. It's no harder then filling out a blank check and handing it to them.


> I think my old local in Detroit is run more like the UAW for obvious reasons than other locals are. Just the impression I got from my time there.


Possibly.


----------



## Zog

JackBoot said:


> That's part of what you said that I agreed with. I went on to say that there should be something in place to get rid of those problem workers.
> .


I know you said that, I was just agreeing with you that the big issue is those people staying in the union. 

Anyone catch "Undercover boss"? Interesting show that will get old quick but maybe the head guys at the IBEW need to do the undercover bottom of the ladder jobs to see what goes on out there, might give them some ideas.


----------



## JackBoot

Zog said:


> Anyone catch "Undercover boss"? Interesting show that will get old quick but maybe the head guys at the IBEW need to do the undercover bottom of the ladder jobs to see what goes on out there, might give them some ideas.


I think they already know. Most of the agents started out as the slackers :thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> LongIsland guy, would it be possible for you to just admit you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing and don't actually believe all you say?


I'm not arguing Peter. This is a discussion.


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> That's part of what you said that I agreed with. I went on to say that there should be something in place to get rid of those problem workers.


We have a system. Bad layoff? "Come back after you've been employed one full year somewhere OUTSIDE the electrical industry, show us 52 weekly paystubs, then we'll reinstate you and put your name back on the bottom of the out-of-work list."



> I was only commenting on the part where you said that it's hard to fire them. It's no harder then filling out a blank check and handing it to them.


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> We have a system. Bad layoff? "Come back after you've been employed one full year somewhere OUTSIDE the electrical industry, show us 52 weekly paystubs, then we'll reinstate you and put your name back on the bottom of the out-of-work list."


Doesn't work like that here.

Are you telling me that local 3 does it that way?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Products aren't priced based on their cost, the market sets the price. A widget sells for 2.99 whether it costs .10 cents to make or .20 cents to make.
> 
> Manufacturers moved the production of electrical parts to Mexico. Did the prices come down to reflect that a worker is getting 2.00 a day instead of 20.00 an hour? No.
> 
> You can stand by your trickle down theories all you want - we are seeing the result of the working class not getting their fair share while corporate profits soared.


It is not a theory, if you make the cost of making a product higher it will cost the consumer more, that is not theory that is fact. 

You can pretend it's not true but you only look the fool.


----------



## JackBoot

Bob Badger said:


> It is not a theory, if you make the cost of making a product higher it will cost the consumer more, that is not theory that is fact.
> 
> You can pretend it's not true but you only look the fool.


It might work like that in some instances, but it doesn't have to. He has a totally different line of thinking, which he would love to have implemented. In his world he thinks that the higher cost of labor should come out of the company's profit instead of the price to consumers. After all, the company is partners with the employees and the employees are *entitled* to their fair share, right?


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> Doesn't work like that here.
> 
> Are you telling me that local 3 does it that way?


That is exactly what I'm telling you. Also, men getting GOOD layoffs from contractors that have recently asked for men who the employment director suspects might have been ROWd just to keep the peace are being sent BACK to the same employer.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> It is not a theory, if you make the cost of making a product higher it will cost the consumer more, that is not theory that is fact.
> 
> You can pretend it's not true but you only look the fool.


It is NOT a fact Bob!!!

I can get a McDonalds Cheeseburger for 99 cents, but in Citicorp Park it's 2 bucks! And a burgerflipper in a stadium costs no more than a burgerflipper anywhere else. 

SqD manufactures in Mexico - are the prices lower?

A 36" LCD used to cost $2500.00, now they're $299.00, did the Chinese take a 87.5% wage cut?


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> It might work like that in some instances, but it doesn't have to. He has a totally different line of thinking, which he would love to have implemented. In his world he thinks that the higher cost of labor should come out of the company's profit instead of the price to consumers. After all, the company is partners with the employees and the employees are *entitled* to their fair share, right?


That's not it at all...

The issue here is, after all things are taken into consideration - the overhead, the bills, the staic costs, and we're left with nothing but the labor cost and the profit, WHO IS DETERMINING how the proceeds of the business get divvied up?

The boss could get 300 grand a year and I get 100 grand? How about the boss gets 350 grand and I settle for 50? Or maybe the boss oughta get 200 grand and I get 200 grand... what is right? What is "fair?"

For Bob - the answer is leave it up to the boss to decide what's fair, and if I don't like it I can walk.

For me - there are better ways for employees to handle this situation, I'm better at electrical work than pouring over the books.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It is NOT a fact Bob!!!
> 
> I can get a McDonalds Cheeseburger for 99 cents, but in Citicorp Park it's 2 bucks! And a burgerflipper in a stadium costs no more than a burgerflipper anywhere else.
> 
> SqD manufactures in Mexico - are the prices lower?
> 
> A 36" LCD used to cost $2500.00, now they're $299.00, did the Chinese take a 87.5% wage cut?


wow - actually the labor, the rent, and the process of getting the food into citicorp park cost more than it does at the corner McDonalds...

Sq D - lower than what?

LCD - technology has caused a tremendous drop in cost to build...which also includes less labor and less skilled labor...

you really live in a bubble...god bless you...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It is NOT a fact Bob!!!
> 
> I can get a McDonalds Cheeseburger for 99 cents, but in Citicorp Park it's 2 bucks! And a burgerflipper in a stadium costs no more than a burgerflipper anywhere else.
> 
> SqD manufactures in Mexico - are the prices lower?


The examples you are giving are not counter to my statements. 

In both of your examples costs fell and the company profits went up. I have never said otherwise. If the company can raise it's profits it will.

In my examples the costs went up and if you think the company is going to take a loss of profit over raising the price you are really out to lunch.






LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> For Bob - the answer is leave it up to the boss to decide what's fair, and if I don't like it I can walk.


Not exactly, I would not use the word fair, life is not fair. I would word it like this.

_'For Bob - the answer is leave it up to the boss to decide what they are willing to pay, and if I don't like it I can walk.'_

Pretty simple really.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> wow - actually the labor, the rent, and the process of getting the food into citicorp park cost more than it does at the corner McDonalds...
> 
> Sq D - lower than what?
> 
> LCD - technology has caused a tremendous drop in cost to build...which also includes less labor and less skilled labor...
> 
> you really live in a bubble...god bless you...


Here's the "bubble" I live in...

Get into a nonunion shop - top man making 28 bucks an hour, 1/2 the employees have bennies but they suck, and have to pay for 1/2 of it, boss is crying poverty and claiming all of the same kinds of things people on this thread are saying...

Get 24 of them to sign pledge cards, organized, sworn in, shop declares they're all Journeymen even though many clearly are not, and in the past 7 years they're all still employes, each one making 49.00 an hour, costs a bit over 100.00 an hour between pay, taxes and Health & Welfare funds...

Company is still in business and growing, owner is still a millionaire, most of the employees have since moved out of basement apartments and into their own homes...

So go ahead Oldman - try and burst that "bubble."


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> The examples you are giving are not counter to my statements.
> 
> In both of your examples costs fell and the company profits went up. I have never said otherwise. If the company can raise it's profits it will.


Likewise, if the company can't raise it's profits because it's labor costs went up, then that's good too. The company will get over it.



> In my examples the costs went up and if you think the company is going to take a loss of profit over raising the price you are really out to lunch.


Sometimes a company has to take a loss of profit because some expense went up. 



> Not exactly, I would not use the word fair, life is not fair.


Life can be fair Bob if everybody wouldn't simply roll over and "like-it-or-lump-it." Life can be fairer when employees realize they have a lot more power working together to each other's betterment, rather that trying to step all over each other in a race to the top that only a very few could possibly win. 


> I would word it like this.
> 
> _'For Bob - the answer is leave it up to the boss to decide what they are willing to pay, and if I don't like it I can walk.'_
> 
> Pretty simple really.


Well then color me complicated Bob. Simple isn't good enough for me.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Here's the "bubble" I live in...
> 
> Get into a nonunion shop - top man making 28 bucks an hour, 1/2 the employees have bennies but they suck, and have to pay for 1/2 of it, boss is crying poverty and claiming all of the same kinds of things people on this thread are saying...



It is a bubble, none of that describes any shop I have worked for. :no:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> It is a bubble, none of that describes any shop I have worked for. :no:


Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Simple isn't good enough for me.


I am really not surprised because it was already clear that facts, reality, commonsense and basic economic concepts all escape you.:laughing:


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Here's the "bubble" I live in...
> 
> Get into a nonunion shop - top man making 28 bucks an hour, 1/2 the employees have bennies but they suck, and have to pay for 1/2 of it, boss is crying poverty and claiming all of the same kinds of things people on this thread are saying...
> 
> Get 24 of them to sign pledge cards, organized, sworn in, shop declares they're all Journeymen even though many clearly are not, and in the past 7 years they're all still employes, each one making 49.00 an hour, costs a bit over 100.00 an hour between pay, taxes and Health & Welfare funds...
> 
> Company is still in business and growing, owner is still a millionaire, most of the employees have since moved out of basement apartments and into their own homes...
> 
> So go ahead Oldman - try and burst that "bubble."


You forgot to mention where the boss came up with the extra money to go from paying $28/hr with crappy benefits to $100/hr.

The money tree?


----------



## Control Freak

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Here's the "bubble" I live in...
> 
> Get into a nonunion shop - top man making 28 bucks an hour, 1/2 the employees have bennies but they suck, and have to pay for 1/2 of it, boss is crying poverty and claiming all of the same kinds of things people on this thread are saying...
> 
> Get 24 of them to sign pledge cards, organized, sworn in, shop declares they're all Journeymen even though many clearly are not, and in the past 7 years they're all still employes, each one making 49.00 an hour, costs a bit over 100.00 an hour between pay, taxes and Health & Welfare funds...
> 
> Company is still in business and growing, owner is still a millionaire, most of the employees have since moved out of basement apartments and into their own homes...
> 
> So go ahead Oldman - try and burst that "bubble."


There is no bubble to burst. It's reality. At least for me. Contractors don't pay such high wages because they aren't making a nice profit. A well paid worker is more inclined to increase production than a disgruntled one. I work for a small shop where it is fairly obvious if you're pulling your weight or not. I want the owner to make money so I stay employed. In fact many of my close friends have the same mentality. That of course is my attitude and opinion, not some fact I read somewhere. It's strictly my observation.

One fact is that our men get higher wages and better benefits. for a worker hands down better deal.


----------



## user4818

JackBoot said:


> You forgot to mention where the boss came up with the extra money to go from paying $28/hr with crappy benefits to $100/hr.
> 
> The money tree?



Power to the people!


----------



## JackBoot

Control Freak said:


> One fact is that our men get higher wages and better benefits. for a worker hands down better deal.


And that's fine. But when it's an unreasonable rate that the workers are extorting thru union thuggery, it drives more contractors and customers towards the evil non-union darkside. And then where does that leave you? What's the use of super high wages when you are sitting on the bench for more months than you are working? 0 X $46/hr is still 0.


----------



## Advanced37

JackBoot said:


> Not every member of the union is a "thug" like you said and not every member follows along when they don't like the practices like you said they do. Your generalizations are no different than a union guy calling all non-union workers rats.



+1:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> You forgot to mention where the boss came up with the extra money to go from paying $28/hr with crappy benefits to $100/hr.
> 
> The money tree?


I guess the boss just had to accept lower profit margins. Understand that this boss was charging his customers similar rates as any other local 3 shop. 

He told the last few men who asked to get benefits that he couldn't because they were walking on a tightrope as it was, nobody was getting raises or benefits... seems he lied. He's having no trouble making a profit AND paying much higher, prevailing wages. Now, why would a boss lie I wonder???


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I guess the boss just had to accept lower profit margins.


No, he does *NOT* -have to- accept those lower profit margins, he could go be a non-union contractor. Just like the customers could do the work non-union. And the union workers could sit the bench more and more. Good plan.


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> And that's fine. But when it's an unreasonable rate that the workers are extorting thru union thuggery, it drives more contractors and customers towards the evil non-union darkside.


Wrong... there is no thuggery, there is a negotiation committee with contractors and union reps and union members all participating.



> And then where does that leave you? What's the use of super high wages when you are sitting on the bench for more months than you are working? 0 X $46/hr is still 0.


Yep - sucks for those sitting on the bench. With 14,000 members we got 3000 out, long wait for work.

But do you think if I and every other member worked for 10 bucks an hour less we'd all be employed? 

The thing is, when unions have unemployment there are numbers to be seen... when this happens (and it is happening) in the nonunion sector they just get fired and tossed aside like yesterday's trash, and aren't accounted for in any statistic. 

So talk all you want about enemployment in the union sector, there is a LOT more in yours... (I guess that's because you're all making too much... :whistling2


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So talk all you want about enemployment in the union sector, there is a LOT more in yours... (I guess that's because you're all making too much... :whistling2


I'm a member of Local 102 you dimwit :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> No, he does *NOT* -have to- accept those lower profit margins, he could go be a non-union contractor. Just like the customers could do the work non-union. And the union workers could sit the bench more and more. Good plan.


Seems that didn't happen Jack...

And, once your employees vote for union representation, he can NOT "go be a nonunion contractor." 

Remember, the members are the union, NOT the employer. :thumbup:


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And, once your employees vote for union representation, he can NOT "go be a nonunion contractor."


So he's contracted for life??


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Here's the "bubble" I live in...
> 
> Get into a nonunion shop - top man making 28 bucks an hour, 1/2 the employees have bennies but they suck, and have to pay for 1/2 of it, boss is crying poverty and claiming all of the same kinds of things people on this thread are saying...
> 
> Get 24 of them to sign pledge cards, organized, sworn in, shop declares they're all Journeymen even though many clearly are not, and in the past 7 years they're all still employes, each one making 49.00 an hour, costs a bit over 100.00 an hour between pay, taxes and Health & Welfare funds...
> 
> Company is still in business and growing, owner is still a millionaire, most of the employees have since moved out of basement apartments and into their own homes...
> 
> So go ahead Oldman - try and burst that "bubble."


2 things....

1 - what does that have to do with the topics we were discussing?

2 - you really do like using exceptions to prove rules...

you, yourself, have stated that 15 of the 16 shops you've worked for are now out of business...what does that tell you?


----------



## oldman

i would like to state, unequivocally, that I am doing something wrong...as a small, non-union contractor who pays a higher wage than spewed here, provides benefits, etc...I am unable to find work to make me a millionaire on the backs of my workers...I have not been able to purchase my own private jet yet...I still get up and go to work everyday...

so, i am seriously asking for help from any contractor who has the answer...any contractor who can show me how to get rich in this industry...because, quite frankly, I haven't been able to figure it out...

when we were a union shop, we didn't make any more money than we make now...we grossed more, and spent more...but we kept the same...

so, i am open to being an apprentice to a mentor who will teach me how to get rich...


----------



## JackBoot

oldman, have you put any thought into trying the union route again? It would seem like it might open up a few doors in a place like NJ where even Walmart is built with union labor.


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> So he's contracted for life??


Legally, the employees are represented for life, unless the employees vote for de-certification. Firing or laying off every employee and starting anew, even under another name, does not relieve the contractor from the decertification vote.


----------



## BryanMD

oldman said:


> 2
> you, yourself, have stated that 15 of the 16 shops you've worked for are now out of business...what does that tell you?


Wow.
That might even beat Bob Badgers record.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> 2 things....
> 
> 1 - what does that have to do with the topics we were discussing?
> 
> 2 - you really do like using exceptions to prove rules...
> 
> you, yourself, have stated that 15 of the 16 shops you've worked for are now out of business...what does that tell you?


C'mon OldMan... you never took me that seriously before, why now?


----------



## Control Freak

JackBoot said:


> And that's fine. But when it's an *unreasonable *rate that the workers are extorting thru union thuggery, it drives more contractors and customers towards the evil non-union darkside. And then where does that leave you? What's the use of super high wages when you are sitting on the bench for more months than you are working? 0 X $46/hr is still 0.


unreasonable to who? Splicing 4160 wire at a **** plant in a manhole in february freezing your balls off. 49 an hour is cheap when the contractor charges 15 grand a splice.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i would like to state, unequivocally, that I am doing something wrong...as a small, non-union contractor who pays a higher wage than spewed here, provides benefits, etc...I am unable to find work to make me a millionaire on the backs of my workers...I have not been able to purchase my own private jet yet...I still get up and go to work everyday...
> 
> so, i am seriously asking for help from any contractor who has the answer...any contractor who can show me how to get rich in this industry...because, quite frankly, I haven't been able to figure it out...
> 
> when we were a union shop, we didn't make any more money than we make now...we grossed more, and spent more...but we kept the same...
> 
> so, i am open to being an apprentice to a mentor who will teach me how to get rich...


Why? Why do you expect to get rich?


----------



## JackBoot

Control Freak said:


> unreasonable to who? Splicing 4160 wire at a **** plant in a manhole in february freezing your balls off. 49 an hour is cheap when the contractor charges 15 grand a splice.


Maybe so. But how about the journeymen wiremen who are installing 2X4 fixtures (apprentice work, skill-less labor) for $49/hr?


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Legally, the employees are represented for life, unless the employees vote for de-certification. Firing or laying off every employee and starting anew, even under another name, does not relieve the contractor from the decertification vote.


So if a shop is voted into the union, they don't have the same rights as a contractor who signed with the hall voluntarily?


----------



## user4818

Control Freak said:


> unreasonable to who? Splicing 4160 wire at a **** plant in a manhole in february freezing your balls off. 49 an hour is cheap when the contractor charges 15 grand a splice.



So become a contractor then if you don't like it.


----------



## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> So become a contractor then if you don't like it.


BINGO! give Peter the prize. :thumbsup:


----------



## oldman

JackBoot said:


> oldman, have you put any thought into trying the union route again? It would seem like it might open up a few doors in a place like NJ where even Walmart is built with union labor.


truthfully, yes...
we are already signed on with 363 in NY through a sister company...and I've spoken to 102 a bunch...soon as the opportunity arises...

doesn't matter right now, the work isn't there...

now that should floor most of you...but, the reality is, it's not a path to riches...when we need to fund $3k/week/man, the money flows out very quickly...

right now, we are seriously having trouble getting enough work to cover the $2k/wk/man cost that we average...

funny thing is...right now, we could open up 100 union shops...and there would still be 900 guys on the bench of 102...

some of the best j-men I know are sitting for 12+ months already...and quite a few c-sucker, a-kissers are somehow moved from job to job and contractor to contractor...it's a shame...

102 is almost trying to push out the old 262 and 695 guys, while keeping the '102' guys working...

but even on that level, the margins aren't there...look at PW projects...they are going for 10-20% under A/E valuations...not because there is a savings in labor or material...but because contractors are cutting margins to keep work flowing...

if, and the key word is IF, you have a big enough bankroll, you can withstand the current situation and hold out for your prices...but that requires having the bankroll to carry $15-20k week in payroll for your core 5-8 guys so they are with you when times turn around...

look at SM - if they didn't get bought out by Matrix, they'd be gone....just had a solar project get done by a union shop for the same rate as a non-union shop...we bid $3.5, 2 other established union shops bid $3.5...4th outfit takes the job somewhere between $2.1 and 2.5...the same price as a non-union bid...got $250k in market recovery...had 75 guys on site for most of the project...$800k in material on the project...do the math...the EC will be lucky to break even on that project....it wasn't 102 territory....and the BA in that territory is a c-sucker who will bust a union shops balls all day long, but doesn't f- with open shops...go figure...

so, while i bust nuts, i really do believe that the only way for anyone to succeed in this business is for labor and management to work together...

have at it LGLS:laughing:


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> C'mon OldMan... you never took me that seriously before, why now?


because you are changing my thought process...i changed my entire wardrobe to red today...


----------



## oldman

Control Freak said:


> unreasonable to who? Splicing 4160 wire at a **** plant in a manhole in february freezing your balls off. 49 an hour is cheap when the contractor charges 15 grand a splice.


$15k? what's the cost of material? tools? equipment? how many man hours?

just curious


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> Maybe so. But how about the journeymen wiremen who are installing 2X4 fixtures (apprentice work, skill-less labor) for $49/hr?


An apprentice is on a jobsite to LEARN. Once an apprentice masters a skill, say, installing layins, you cannot USE that apprentice as cheap labor and have him install all the layins because you think some electrical tasks are too simple for a JW.

A lot of electrical work is simple. It's electrical work, and whether you're arc-fusion splicing fiber optic cable or installing receptacles, it's 49.00 an hour.


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> So if a shop is voted into the union, they don't have the same rights as a contractor who signed with the hall voluntarily?


You sure you're a member of 102?

Did you take labor history 101?


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> So become a contractor then if you don't like it.


He didn't say he didn't like it...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> An apprentice is on a jobsite to LEARN. Once an apprentice masters a skill, say, installing layins, you cannot USE that apprentice as cheap labor and have him install all the layins because you think some electrical tasks are too simple for a JW.


Actually state law says we can and we do.:thumbup1:

We can have an apprentice do any task that a JW can as long as the apprentice is under the supervision of a JW at a 1 to 1 ratio.

What we do is not rocket science.


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> An apprentice is on a jobsite to LEARN. Once an apprentice masters a skill, say, installing layins, you cannot USE that apprentice as cheap labor and have him install all the layins because you think some electrical tasks are too simple for a JW.


Bologna. A contractor does NOT pay a 5th year apprentice $38/hr just to learn, he pays him to make him money.


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You sure you're a member of 102?
> 
> Did you take labor history 101?


I didn't pay attention to the indoctrination :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Control Freak

Peter D said:


> So become a contractor then if you don't like it.


 
I am not the one complaining buddy. I get paid well. if you have read my posts..... I like it when the contractor I am working for makes money. I understand the reality of business. I think workers deserve to get paid well but at the same time the contractor is laying out alot of money for the job and should make more than the workers. All im saying is that everyone can make a nice amount and be happy. *There is a happy medium. *


----------



## Control Freak

JackBoot said:


> Bologna. A contractor does NOT pay a 5th year apprentice $38/hr just to learn, he pays him to make him money.


Where do 5th years make 38 an hour?????? you talking hourly or total package?


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> so, while i bust nuts, i really do believe that the only way for anyone to succeed in this business is for labor and management to work together...
> 
> have at it LGLS:laughing:


I'm looking for what to have at, and what for? 

We have a Joint Industry Board, we work together. But you can't get blood from a stone. In this market there are going to be casualities... lowering our standards won't prevent that. And once you give back, you'll never recoup...


----------



## JackBoot

Control Freak said:


> Where do 5th years make 38 an hour?????? you talking hourly or total package?


NJ. A 5th year is $37 and change per hour in the envelope. Do you think either the contractor or the union actually believes the 5th year apprentice gets paid that JUST to learn? That pay is also for the apprentice to make the contractor money.

BTW, it's even more in NYC where LGLS is.


----------



## Control Freak

so, while i bust nuts, i really do believe that the only way for anyone to succeed in this business is for labor and management to work together...


you hit the nail on the head. Everyone is trying to put food on their table. Just because an employer is open shop/merit shop doesn't mean he is a piece of sh#@. I worked for some great guys before that were non-union and did the right thing like if I did a job way under schedule and it was bid for 5 days and I did it in 3 i would get paid the straight time for the next two days and get to stay home if I want. If he was in a jam I would still come in. We both respected each other. Im happy the boss is happy he made his profit margin...everybody wins. I also worked for a guy that when he popped up he would buy everybody lunch just to say great job.he was a really nice guy. I've also worked for union contractors that were a#$holes. It comes down to the man really!


----------



## Control Freak

JackBoot said:


> NJ. A 5th year is $37 and change per hour in the envelope. Do you think either the contractor or the union actually believes the 5th year apprentice gets paid that JUST to learn? That pay is also for the apprentice to make the contractor money.
> 
> BTW, it's even more in NYC where LGLS is.


 
btw..........I'm in NYC and fifth year apps aka MIJ's get paid 25.65 an hour>
i am in the same local as LGLS!


----------



## JackBoot

Control Freak said:


> btw..........I'm in NYC and fifth year apps aka MIJ's get paid 25.65 an hour>
> i am in the same local as LGLS!


5th year here is 80% of JW rate.
4th is 70%
3rd is 60%
2nd is 50%
1st is 40%


----------



## oldman

5th yrs are the workhorses. They are as productive as 1st year JW, but at a 20% discount. 

That's why so many guys graduate, then get sent to the bench.


----------



## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> What we do is not rocket science.


That's crazy talk. We should make as much as doctors or engineers to do basic assembly line work.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> 5th yrs are the workhorses. They are as productive as 1st year JW, but at a 20% discount.
> 
> That's why so many guys graduate, then get sent to the bench.


About... hence the pipebending bootcamp. Seems no contractor wants apprentices to learn pipebending on the job.


----------



## Control Freak

oldman said:


> 5th yrs are the workhorses. They are as productive as 1st year JW, but at a 20% discount.
> 
> That's why so many guys graduate, then get sent to the bench.


They should be the work horses.............

You should know your sh%$ after 4 years of working in the feild.

Yes many guys get sent to the bench after they turn out........
if there is no work there is no work. what can we do? if a guy is really good he will stick around..........most of the time anyway.

Old Man about the production statement, you are correct..
Think about it... if on tuesday I am 5th year and Wednesday I am a Journeyman there is really no difference. I am not any better than I was the day before. Right?


----------



## JackBoot

JackBoot said:


> So if a shop is voted into the union, they don't have the same rights as a contractor who signed with the hall voluntarily?


So LGLS??


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> So LGLS??


Jack what do you think the answer is?


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Jack what do you think the answer is?


For someone who is so filled with union knowledge and always willing to type it out ad nauseum, it's funny that you are quiet when a brother has a real question. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> For someone who is so filled with union knowledge and always willing to type it out ad nauseum, it's funny that you are quiet when a brother has a real question. :laughing:


I'd answer, It's just troubling that a "brother" would need to ASK this.


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'd answer, It's just troubling that a "brother" would need to ASK this.


 Once again:


JackBoot said:


> I didn't pay attention to the indoctrination :laughing::laughing:


I was under the impression that the IBEW contractors were voluntary and were able to quit the union when their contract ran out. 

I didn't know that the IBEW was run like a labor union in which some workers could vote the contractor into union servitude for life.

Is that what you are saying? Because you are being awfully vague for the forum loudmouth.


----------



## LGLS

JackBoot said:


> Once again:
> 
> I was under the impression that the IBEW contractors were voluntary and were able to quit the union when their contract ran out.
> 
> I didn't know that the IBEW was run like a labor union in which some workers could vote the contractor into union servitude for life.
> 
> Is that what you are saying? Because you are being awfully vague for the forum loudmouth.


A contractor might willingly sign a limited engagement...
But an organized contractor, what many might refer to as a contractor whose employees held a vote on their own without the contractor's (or in spite of the contractor's) approval, would have a workforce that we call "union."

As stated previously... when a workforce is union... the process of UNunionizing takes over a year and requires a vote from the employees to decertify their previously elected representation.


----------



## JackBoot

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A contractor might willingly sign a limited engagement...
> But an organized contractor, what many might refer to as a contractor whose employees held a vote on their own without the contractor's (or in spite of the contractor's) approval, would have a workforce that we call "union."
> 
> As stated previously... when a workforce is union... the process of UNunionizing takes over a year and requires a vote from the employees to decertify their previously elected representation.


So what's the workforce called when the shop voluntarily signs with the hall, like the vast majority of them did?


----------



## Zog

Control Freak said:


> unreasonable to who? Splicing 4160 wire at a **** plant in a manhole in february freezing your balls off. 49 an hour is cheap when the contractor charges 15 grand a splice.


Who on earth is charging $15k for a 4160V splice??? No wonder all our manufacturing is moving overseas.


----------



## user4818

This thread has gone on forever and nobody as suggested the obvious. The IBEW should disband immediately and start over from scratch with LGLS as their supreme leader.


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> This thread has gone on forever and nobody as suggested the obvious. The IBEW should disband immediately and start over from scratch with LGLS as their supreme leader.


You might be onto something...


----------



## Control Freak

JackBoot said:


> So what's the workforce called when the shop voluntarily signs with the hall, like the vast majority of them did?


 
A unionized work force. The whole point of the vote is whether the employees want to unionize or not. The employer has no say in the matter. No matter how it is achieved the organized workers are now union members. unless he closes up shop and opens up in a right to work state like Stell Doro from the bronx did. 

Are you in the IBEW or any union at all? If you are you should know this stuff then. Pretty common knowledge.


----------



## JackBoot

Peter D said:


> This thread has gone on forever and nobody as suggested the obvious. The IBEW should disband immediately and start over from scratch with LGLS as their supreme leader.


He can't even answer simple questions. I'm still waiting.


----------



## Control Freak

Zog said:


> Who on earth is charging $15k for a 4160V splice??? No wonder all our manufacturing is moving overseas.


 
How can splicing in a manhole in Queens be sent over seas??:laughing:


----------



## oldman

Control Freak said:


> How can splicing in a manhole in Queens be sent over seas??:laughing:


heck, in certain parts of queens, it would cost $5k in security alone


----------



## Control Freak

oldman said:


> heck, in certain parts of queens, it would cost $5k in security alone


 
lmao...............
then you would have to charge 30k in Newark...hahahaha:laughing:


----------



## oldman

Control Freak said:


> lmao...............
> then you would have to charge 30k in Newark...hahahaha:laughing:


nah. newark is great...sharpe cleaned it up

now, irvington....that's a different ballgame:laughing:


----------



## Advanced37

Control Freak said:


> A unionized work force. The whole point of the vote is whether the employees want to unionize or not. The employer has no say in the matter. No matter how it is achieved the organized workers are now union members. unless he closes up shop and opens up in a right to work state like Stell Doro from the bronx did.
> 
> Are you in the IBEW or any union at all? If you are you should know this stuff then. Pretty common knowledge.


They will open it up in a right to work state, until they decide they need to move to a beg for the work (low cost) country. Thats what happening now. Manufacturing companies who moved south years ago, to get away from higher cost labor, now are moving farther south still. (or east) Why? To get away from high cost labor. Oh an guess what? Its not union labor.... Its American Labor.


----------



## oldman

well gentlemen...i'm gonna outsource my research and posting on these forums...

http://www.brickworkindia.com/


----------



## miller_elex

I thought it was already outsourced to Michelle Malkin in the phillippines.


----------



## Zog

Control Freak said:


> How can splicing in a manhole in Queens be sent over seas??:laughing:


The plant (Customer) is absorbing those outragous costs. 5kV splice kit is about $300, a good certified splicer can do a set in about 2 hours per set once he gets in the groove. Add 2 more hours for a single set for set up and confined space entry. 4 hours at say $150/hr for 2 guys (Top man) is $1,500 at the most for one splice, $800 or so each for multiple splices. $15,000 is highway robbery.


----------



## JayH

Zog said:


> $15,000 is highway robbery.


It is capitalism. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)


----------



## Bob Badger

I don't see any problem with trying to charge $15K per splice, I do say shame on the person approving to pay that price.

Two things come to mind, either the person deciding to accept that price has no clue at all and should not be in that position or they are taking kick backs.


----------



## Zog

Bob Badger said:


> I don't see any problem with trying to charge $15K per splice, I do say shame on the person approving to pay that price.
> 
> Two things come to mind, either the person deciding to accept that price has no clue at all and should not be in that position or they are taking kick backs.


Chances are it is one or the other.


----------



## JayH

Zog said:


> Chances are it is one or the other.


Or the $15K figure could simply be hyperbole.


----------



## JackBoot

JayH said:


> Or the $15K figure could simply be hyperbole.


Winner.


----------



## boulengerina

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Entitlement? Gi'mmee?
> So unions are some kind of spoiled child-like entity for demanding decent wages and beneifts? Decent working conditions? Having a voice in the workplace and having professional representation and fair hearings?
> 
> Maybe you're off a bit - your mind too engrained in a plantation mentality.


Hey LGLS... to top it all off, these guys are trashing us and we only control 15% or so market share nationwide! What do you think it is they are afraid of?


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> Our contract did, in leiu of the retirement plan that 58 had. Our contract stated our 401k had to meet or exceed thier retirement plan. I don't care what you googled, you were not there and have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> I also never said the missing funds were the unions fault, it was the company that was doing it, but the union did nothing to protect us. All they did was collect our dues, and when that company stopped paying our medical benifits the union did nothing to help us either. In fact, I never recieved any support from the IBEW on anything, they never did a single thing for me or any of my co-workers besides collect dues.


Well, that's a shame. And a sham. No Local should EVER agree to a 401K, as the whole thing is a rip-off. Sorry to jump into your oatmeal.


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> I have not read every post but would like to address the OP's question.
> 
> All it takes to have a bad rep is a few bad apples, the guys getting drunk at lunch, sleeping on the job, holding up jobs so they can get more hours, those sort of things. The majority of the IBEW guys I have worked with were really good guys, trying to do the best job they could and take care of thier families the best they could. But that, 5, maybe 10% of the other guys are what gives the IBEW such a bad rep. But it seems they are protected by the same union they are making look so bad, no matter what they do it is very hard to fire them or better yet boo them out of the union via a review board.
> 
> Perhaps the IBEW should take a close look at how they deal with people that do all of those things that make it look so bad and stop trying to protect them. It should be a privledge to be an IBEW brother/sister and get the training, wages, benifits it offers, NOT A RIGHT.


You make many good points, I think. But, is it fair to assume that 5-10% of the men in an open shop are slugs, too? The IBEW Local to which I belong takes this stuff VERY SERIOUSLY, and we still have slugs. I think that in these situations, the IBEW gets the blame due to the fact that it IS an organization, and it is easy to blame, what with the resentment for organized labor and all. 

Those guys you mention... the slugs. They are the book riders and NEVER EVER EVER get to work here. If they are sent out, they are refused by the contractors. There is a certain amount of burden on the signatory contractor to do the right thing, too. They have had it easy for WAY to long. The fact that sigs almost NEVER fire a guy... this is the first and biggest problem. If they are fired twice in a year, our executive board gets a piece of their butt, and that's a good thing. But they MUST BE FIRED in order to trigger the letter to the Executive Board.


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Once again:
> 
> I was under the impression that the IBEW contractors were voluntary and were able to quit the union when their contract ran out.
> 
> I didn't know that the IBEW was run like a labor union in which some workers could vote the contractor into union servitude for life.
> 
> Is that what you are saying? Because you are being awfully vague for the forum loudmouth.


Look up NLRA 8(f) and 9(a).


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> Well, that's a shame. And a sham. No Local should EVER agree to a 401K, as the whole thing is a rip-off. Sorry to jump into your oatmeal.


Why is a 401K a ripoff??


----------



## Zog

boulengerina said:


> You make many good points, I think. But, is it fair to assume that 5-10% of the men in an open shop are slugs, too?


Not for long, they are "disposed of" quickly. It seems they end up together in groups at the same companies with "slugs" for management that put up with it. I think at some IBEW shops it is tollerated more than non-union shops, but that could be what my exposure in Detroit exposed me to. I have been on a few IBEW job sites here in Charlotte and saw less slacking than I have in other parts of the country, in fact they were busting humps. 



boulengerina said:


> The IBEW Local to which I belong takes this stuff VERY SERIOUSLY, and we still have slugs. I think that in these situations, the IBEW gets the blame due to the fact that it IS an organization, and it is easy to blame, what with the resentment for organized labor and all.


That is a very good point, like sleezy congressmen, they are mostly good people working hard and fighting for what they think is right, then some jerk has an affair or something and gives tham all a bad image. 



boulengerina said:


> Those guys you mention... the slugs. They are the book riders and NEVER EVER EVER get to work here. If they are sent out, they are refused by the contractors. There is a certain amount of burden on the signatory contractor to do the right thing, too. They have had it easy for WAY to long. The fact that sigs almost NEVER fire a guy... this is the first and biggest problem. If they are fired twice in a year, our executive board gets a piece of their butt, and that's a good thing. But they MUST BE FIRED in order to trigger the letter to the Executive Board.


Another good point, but I think there is a fear factor by some companies of firing a union guy because you have to answer to the union rep.


----------



## Zog

boulengerina said:


> Well, that's a shame. And a sham. No Local should EVER agree to a 401K, as the whole thing is a rip-off. Sorry to jump into your oatmeal.


Thanks, where were you when we signed that one????


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Why is a 401K a ripoff??


401K's are 100% market dependent. Most 401K's lost half their worth during the time period from November of '08 to November of '09, while IRA's and Annuities held on to their deposit value, for the most part. Some 401K's are better than others, but ALL IRA's are better than 401K's!

If you have a 401K, and are worried about it, invest it in an IRA. Message me if you wanna know why... don't want to get too far off topic here.


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> Another good point, but I think there is a fear factor by some companies of firing a union guy because you have to answer to the union rep.


You are exactly RIGHT! And this is where the IBEW needs to grow up, as we have here in NC, and support a contractor if his choice makes SENSE. Indeed they should be able to fire for cause, without fear of retribution from a BA.


----------



## boulengerina

Zog said:


> Thanks, where were you when we signed that one????


Well watch out! The IO is creating a 401K for the members of the IBEW. It will be voluntary, but I still don't trust it.


----------



## Zog

boulengerina said:


> 401K's are 100% market dependent. Most 401K's lost half their worth during the time period from November of '08 to November of '09, while IRA's and Annuities held on to their deposit value, for the most part. Some 401K's are better than others, but ALL IRA's are better than 401K's!
> 
> If you have a 401K, and are worried about it, invest it in an IRA. Message me if you wanna know why... don't want to get too far off topic here.


The only difference between a 401k and an IRA are company contributions. I have my current 401k set up with the same funds as some of my IRA's. And, if you pay attention to them you can move things around. When the market started to crash late in 2008 I moved most of my 401k and IRA funds to bond funds, I made about 6% on these in 2009 when others that ignore thier nest eggs lost 20-50%. Late in 2009 and early 2010 I have been buying back the same (Mostly mid cap) stock fund shares I used to have at near half price and have been riding the train back up. 

Annuities are a whole different thing. Sort of a defered tax savings account.


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> 401K's are 100% market dependent. Most 401K's lost half their worth during the time period from November of '08 to November of '09, while IRA's and Annuities held on to their deposit value, for the most part. Some 401K's are better than others, but ALL IRA's are better than 401K's!
> 
> If you have a 401K, and are worried about it, invest it in an IRA. Message me if you wanna know why... don't want to get too far off topic here.


I have an annuity thru the local, and it lost 46% during that time period you mentioned since I have it spread across a bunch of aggressive funds.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> Hey LGLS... to top it all off, these guys are trashing us and we only control 15% or so market share nationwide! What do you think it is they are afraid of?


This reminds me of an guy I was talking to about the benefits of joining a union - after he spouted phrase after phrase of parrotted anti-union sentiment, said "well if you guys werent so darn overpaid we'd all be making more." And he believed it. He also thought there were "good" jobs, projects and contractors/develpoers out there but they couldn't get those good jobs because we got them, leaving them with the crappier, lower paid jobs done by cheap construction / develpoment companies.

I had to point out his project was owned by the same company as mine.


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> Well, that's a shame. And a sham. No Local should EVER agree to a 401K, as the whole thing is a rip-off. Sorry to jump into your oatmeal.


Really???


----------



## LGLS

boulengerina said:


> 401K's are 100% market dependent. Most 401K's lost half their worth during the time period from November of '08 to November of '09, while IRA's and Annuities held on to their deposit value, for the most part. Some 401K's are better than others, but ALL IRA's are better than 401K's!
> 
> If you have a 401K, and are worried about it, invest it in an IRA. Message me if you wanna know why... don't want to get too far off topic here.


I thought you couldn't transfer from 401k to IRA without paying severe penalties. IRAs are after-tax voluntary contributions. 

My 401k has done very well considering, as we have a shelter fund in which to transfer investments whenever the markets aren't looking too promising. Mine's been sitting in there for 5-6 years now. I forsee leaving it there until my retirement.


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This reminds me of an guy I was talking to about the benefits of joining a union - after he spouted phrase after phrase of parrotted anti-union sentiment, said "well if you guys werent so darn overpaid we'd all be making more." And he believed it. He also thought there were "good" jobs, projects and contractors/develpoers out there but they couldn't get those good jobs because we got them, leaving them with the crappier, lower paid jobs done by cheap construction / develpoment companies.
> 
> I had to point out his project was owned by the same company as mine.


Speking of a parrot:thumbup::laughing::blink::thumbsup:


----------



## Charlie K

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I thought you couldn't transfer from 401k to IRA without paying severe penalties. IRAs are after-tax voluntary contributions.
> 
> My 401k has done very well considering, as we have a shelter fund in which to transfer investments whenever the markets aren't looking too promising. Mine's been sitting in there for 5-6 years now. I forsee leaving it there until my retirement.


Our local has an Annuity. Basically the same as 401k. My moneys been in there for 30 years. Has its ups and downs. Six more years and I am cashing in. Our local also has a good pension along with the NEBF and I am good to go.

Charlie


----------



## Zog

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I thought you couldn't transfer from 401k to IRA without paying severe penalties.


No penalties, have done it a few times. 



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> IRAs are after-tax voluntary contributions.


IRA's are pre-tax, roth IRA's are after tax.


----------



## miller_elex

JackBoot said:


> I have an annuity thru the local, and it lost 46% during that time period you mentioned since I have it spread across a bunch of aggressive funds.


That's awful bad, so many brothers lost between 60 and 40%. My Tenth District gained 38% between August 2008 and this year, because I traded in the aggressive funds for the funds based on bonds. Then after the bond bubble looked like it was about to burst, I moved it all to cash. Then, when the midcap funds were at a 55% loss, I re-bought and rode the jobless recovery back up out of the hole.

You can do this too, just watch PBS's Nightly Business Report every night, and check MarketWatch daily. Get a handle on the important dates by checking out the Trader's Almanac.

Turn it into a hobby like gambling, but your chances once you see the ebbs and flows of the market are much better than slots.

We got to get educated in the money department, not in a gambling high-stakes mentality, but for the sake of understanding the market for our own security.


----------



## JackBoot

miller_elex said:


> That's awful bad, so many brothers lost between 60 and 40%.


But, unlike some of the other guys, I left my money right where it was and I made 90% of it back.

Many, if not most, of the other guys moved their money to the stable fund after they took that big hit, and they lost it all.

My loss was only on paper, I never actually lost anything, just a big fluctuation.


----------



## Zog

JackBoot said:


> But, unlike some of the other guys, I left my money right where it was and I made 90% of it back.


Just about everyone who didn't do anything got 90% of it back, or only lost 10%, same thing. 

Those who pay attention to thier retiirement nearly doubled thier money in the last 2 years, I sure did. It is not very hard. 

But we digress again, this has nothing to do with how the unions can shed thier bad image.( Unless they were too busy getting drunk at lunch, picketing, and sleeping on the job to take care of thier finances. :laughing


----------



## boulengerina

I still like my annuity. Slower growth, sure. But the original deposit has MUCH more protection. 

Hey y'all... Lets start a new thread. Some of you guys sound really schooled in this, and a whole bunch of diaper dandies need to know what you know. :thumbsup:


----------



## RIVETER

*Ibew*



Zog said:


> No penalties, have done it a few times.
> 
> 
> 
> IRA's are pre-tax, roth IRA's are after tax.


Rollover IRA's are good.


----------



## miller_elex

I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.

The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.

The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.

What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.


----------



## JackBoot

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.
> 
> What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.


Yeah, that bad-ass image and the big rat setup outside jobsites along with the thug mentality is EXACTLY what will make consumers and possible customers look at us in a good light.

People like YOU are the reason I can't wait to get out of the IBEW.


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.


What an idiot. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## user4818

Bob Badger said:


> What an idiot. :thumbup::thumbup:


He's either:

1) Trolling

2) just that ignorant

3) under the influence of liquids and/or chemicals


----------



## Bob Badger

Peter D said:


> He's either:
> 
> 1) Trolling
> 
> 2) Or just that ignorant


Either way he cracks me up. :laughing:


----------



## B4T

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.
> 
> What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.


Are you on drugggggggggggs? :no:


----------



## 480sparky

Black4Truck said:


> Are you on drugggggggggggs? :no:


 
No. Just 3M Scotchcoat. :laughing:


----------



## B4T

480sparky said:


> No. Just 3M Scotchcoat. :laughing:


:no:


----------



## JackBoot

Miller drinks the IBEW Kool-Aid.


----------



## oldman

JackBoot said:


> Miller drinks the IBEW Kool-Aid.


nah...he just likes to instigate...


----------



## wildleg

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.
> 
> What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.


while I can't totally agree with you (since I've always worked non union), I have to say that I find your honesty very refreshing, and I can respect and appreciate a heartfelt opinion.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> What an idiot. :thumbup::thumbup:


Bob,
You are such a friggin troll. Can't someone post an opinion without you putting in your three dollar bills worth??


----------



## Southeast Power

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.
> 
> What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.



Bump to the top again............:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You are such a friggin troll. Can't someone post an opinion without you putting in your three dollar bills worth??


Duh, that's the point of a forum, Mr. Sunshine.


----------



## brian john

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You are such a friggin troll. Can't someone post an opinion without you putting in your three dollar bills worth??


You agree with Miller? I thought you were smarter than that? I knew as a 1st year apprentice Miller was young and VERY IGNORANT of anything in the real world, but I gave you more credit than a 1st year apprentice.


----------



## miller_elex

Is this the B.John who taught my furst year of apprenticeship back in the IEC?

Gawd I love it, tell the truth, and a bunch of responses roll right in.

Its called attention on demand, and when I notice Bob's post count is dwindling, just throw a little gas on the fire and the keystrokes come rolling in.

But I won't take any of it back, not a word, and there is a reason there are no agents of the union on here trying to rebutt the IEC ABC ignorance, because no amount of reason can wash away the BS clogging a brainwashed mind, so why waste effort trying?

I say your full of BS, you say I am full of BS, neither one of us wants to change. Maybe you should stick to the 'business & project management' forum, and I will take this one, and we could all be civil elsewheres.


----------



## miller_elex

JackBoot said:


> People like YOU are the reason I can't wait to get out of the IBEW.


WTF are you waiting for? Aren't you a master of your own destiny?

WTF, a couple mouths to feed holding you up? What, are you afraid of what your folks will think that you're a backslider?

What is the real reason you won't leave? I am out there working non-union now, I could really use the company, and a shoulder to cry on, because the man in the office is messing with the PW on my check.

Heh, heh, the local's lawyer is going to help him out by letting him know how to properly execute payroll on davis-bacon jobs.


----------



## miller_elex

And to all the dinkeldorfs and whoevers out there who threaten physical assault on Salts, well, I am ready for that. Already know what happens, it gets real ugly.

You know why I salt? For all the honest contractors out there bidding against greedy scumbags who don't pay the help what they promised the gubbamint they would pay when they signed the contract.


----------



## LGLS

Well, I gotta say your post made up for all the crap that's going down on the job tonight! Due to an MTA screwup, we just finished installing 1.8 million in switchgear... At the wrong station!!!


----------



## Bob Badger

miller_elex said:


> But I won't take any of it back, not a word


I would not ask you to take any of it back your helping me prove my point there are a lot of mindless thugs in the union. :thumbsup:

Besides you also really do make me laugh, you may have even topped LGLS. 



miller_elex said:


> And to all the dinkeldorfs and whoevers out there who threaten physical assault on Salts, well, I am ready for that. Already know what happens, it gets real ugly.


Thanks again! :thumbsup:



jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You are such a friggin troll. Can't someone post an opinion without you putting in your three dollar bills worth??


First off you obviously have no idea what a troll is. 

Second you must not understand how a public forum works. 

Miller got to say his opinion and I got to say mine, if you do not like what I have to say than do not read my posts. Put me on ignore because I doubt I am going away or suddenly going to be dispensing union koolaid. :no:


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> First off you obviously have no idea what a troll is.
> :no:


Troll = Bob 

In Internet slang, a *troll* is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Just think off all the nice work and good wages your guys could have if you could just open your eyes a tiny bit and see the light.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Just think off all the nice work and good wages your guys could have could just open your eyes a tiny bit and see the light.:thumbsup:


You have no idea what jobs we get or what our package is. It really is pretty damn good. Is our average hourly wage as high as the locals, nope. Yet even knowing that I still will not join.

Why is that?

For me the biggest reason is the unions reputation. You do recall that the name of this thread is How can the IBEW change it's damaged reputation?

John, ask yourself have you ever seen me post that I would like the unions to vanish?


----------



## electricmanscott

jrannis said:


> Troll = Bob
> 
> In Internet slang, a *troll* is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
> 
> Just think off all the nice work and good wages your guys could have could just open your eyes a tiny bit and see the light.:thumbsup:


I had a lot of respect for your posts. Gone, all gone.

As for the Miler guy, point proven. Well done IBEW.


----------



## Southeast Power

Sorry it got this low guys,
I just gets annoying that Bob has to jump in on everything anyone has to say here. 
Its to the point that the topic and discussion has sunk to deeper and deeper lows.
Maybe if people like Miller would post and get a bit involved, the issue could be explored a bit more. But, if Bob keeps goading everyone that posts something the slightest bit pro union, the bar will remain very low.

Bob,
Can you sit back for a couple of days and lets see what comes in? I would like to see this thread can tack in a new direction.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well, I gotta say your post made up for all the crap that's going down on the job tonight! Due to an MTA screwup, we just finished installing 1.8 million in switchgear... At the wrong station!!!


hahaha....details...we need details...


----------



## boulengerina

Dang! 

All y'all are outa control!

Miller... WHAT??? C'mon man. You have to know better than that! The term "Rat" is just as inflammatory as ANYTHING that bob says. Why do we still use this term? The IBEW, from a contractor's standpoint, MUST be more than a glorified temp agency! We MUST offer something TANGIBLE to an open shop contractor, or that is just what we are. You sound like you would like to sign contractors by FORCE. That's great and all, but surely you must realize that the day you sign that contractor, he is looking for a way out. "Those forced against their will are of the same opinion still!" Haven't you ever heard this?

Jackboot, WHAT??? You want out? What's keeping you? Withdraw or drop. If you don't appreciate what you've got, then give it to someone who will. There are many who would love to take your place.

The "US & THEM" crap is what led us down the road we are still on (for the most part. SOME of us have awakened from the dream). Why can't the IBEW represent it's members , and at the same time offer something valuable, other than manpower, to a contractor? What is wrong with having GOOD relations with a newly signed contractor? Or an old contractor? It sure makes negotiations easier. If they WANT to be here, they will have a more open-minded approach to you when you try to negotiate a raise. True. I've been there.

I am a third generation IBEW member. The Union has contributed in a VERY BIG WAY to three generations of my family's prosperity. But for this to continue, for my family and many others, we must face the facts and realize that the world (and the game) has changed, but for the most part, we have not. In order for the IBEW to survive, we need something new. Blow-up rats are old. The whole "rat" thing is old, and even _I_ find it offensive. Non-Union electricians are NOT "rats". They are workers, just like the (majority) of members of the IBEW! Non-Union contractors are not "rats", either. They are non-Union contractors. Open Shops. But not "rats". By name calling, we weaken ourselves by exposing our fears. We should not fear the non-Union sect. We should embrace them and "kill them with kindness". The old tactics failed... GET OVER IT! The tactics that I seek are not really tactics. They are an approach to the ENTIRE electrical industry that would seem like a partnership. After all, aren't the goals the same? We all need the next job, right? We all want more money, right? 

And I would like to point out that in many markets (such as the NC market), the two-man shops are doing more than 60% of the work!!! So in order for us to fulfill our obligations and the oath that we took to become members, WE MUST TRY TO ORGANIZE THEM, TOO!! May I remind you:

"The objectives of the IBEW are:
1) To organize ALL workers in the ENTIRE electrical industry in the USA & Canada, including those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into Local Unions.
2) To promote reasonable methods of work.
3) To cultivate feelings of FRIENDSHIP among those of our industry.
4) To settle ALL disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (If possible).
5) To assist each other in sickness or distress.
6) To secure employment.
7) To reduce the hours of daily labor.
8) To secure adequate pay for our work.
9) To seek a higher and higher standard of living.
10) To seek security for the individual.
11) And by LEGAL and PROPER means to elevate the MORAL, INTELLECTUAL, and SOCIAL CONDITIONS of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship.

We, the members of the IBEW took and OATH, sworn before God Almighty, to uphold this. This is the preamble to our constitution. This is our law. If you are not abiding by this, you are breaking a covenant. Exclusion is our enemy. How much goodwill and feelings of friendship are you cultivating with your damn blow-up "rats", or pictures of "rats"? Quit acting like we own the world. We don't.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Sorry it got this low guys,
> I just gets annoying that Bob has to jump in on everything anyone has to say here.


Because I say things you do not want to hear ........ tough, deal with it.




> Maybe if people like Miller would post and get a bit involved, the issue could be explored a bit more.


What issue are you talking about?

The thread was started by someone asking how can the IBEW fix its reputation. Do you think if I was to stay silent when someone posts something like miller did the rep will be fixed? 



> But, if Bob keeps goading everyone that posts something the slightest bit pro union, the bar will remain very low.


I think you are giving far to much weight to the words I type, I do not control anyone here, if they choose not to post because of me that is their own call.



> Can you sit back for a couple of days and lets see what comes in? I would like to see this thread can tack in a new direction.


No, I am not going to post by your schedule or desires, it is an open forum.


----------



## brian john

There is no reason for GOOD hard working IBEW electricians to try to improve the IBEW image. It would take too many GOOD electricians to squash the damage done by the few IBEW Millers.

Work hard, take your money and pray our dwindling share of FAIR markets is not eroded anymore.

As for teaching Miller not sure what he means by that, I would have taught him something he could use in his job, not the crap he spews here.​


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> hahaha....details...we need details...


Lack of details is exactly what got us here. I'm sure right now the office is all a-flurry, the PM is dumping 2 lbs. of double-caf coffee into the coffeemaker, and MTA is probably just waltzing around like all is right with the world.

It was a ConEd crew that pointed out that their feeders ARE ready, it's just that they're ready 14 blocks away where the MTA asked for them...


----------



## oldman

So did MTA tell you or con-ed the wrong location?

No wonder they keep raising fairs


----------



## boulengerina

brian john said:


> There is no reason for GOOD hard working IBEW electricians to try to improve the IBEW image. It would take too many GOOD electricians to squash the damage done by the few IBEW Millers.




I understand your point, but there IS a reason. We can save this ship! I know we can, as we are doing just that on a Local scale here in Charlotte! We are involved in the community, as many Locals are, and we get "extra points" by not acting like @$$holes and thugs. We try VERY hard to work in good faith, and to be REASONABLE. 

The image of the IBEW is tied directly to our market share. And on many fronts, we have "earned" the current image. I just want it to change. I believe in partnerships.


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> The image of the IBEW is tied directly to our market share.


Yes, so our first goal should be to get rid of people like miller_elex and the people who trained him to act the way that he does.

But instead we are going to put up more road block thug session pickets and giant rats.


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Yes, so our first goal should be to get rid of people like miller_elex and the people who trained him to act the way that he does.
> 
> But instead "we" are going to put up more road block thug session pickets and giant rats.


"We"? You have a mouse in your pocket?

I thought you wanted out? It's always easy to run, Jackboot. The harder choice (and path) is to stick it out and effect CHANGE. Now, just which side are you on? Were your previous statements about wanting out in haste? Said in anger? If so, say so.


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> I thought you wanted out?


 When did I say anything different?? Of course I want out, why would I want to be part of a thug ridden organization that keeps stepping on it's own d1ck as it looses more and more market share. Hey, I just heard that it's closer to a 2 year wait on our bench, so let's see what we could do to alienate EVEN MORE people, maybe we can get the wait to 3 years!! 

miller-elex comes here and puts things into perspective for us. While he is spouting off with his tough guy bad-ass image, the rest of us decent, hard working members are embarrassed to have anything to do with him. 


> It's always easy to run, Jackboot.


 NO, you are dead WRONG. It's hard to run, or else I would have left long ago.


> Now, just which side are you on?


 MY side.


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> When did I say anything different?? Of course I want out, why would I want to be part of a thug ridden organization that keeps stepping on it's own d1ck as it looses more and more market share. Hey, I just heard that it's closer to a 2 year wait on our bench, so let's see what we could do to alienate EVEN MORE people, maybe we can get the wait to 3 years!!
> 
> miller-elex comes here and puts things into perspective for us. While he is spouting off with his tough guy bad-ass image, the rest of us decent, hard working members are embarrassed to have anything to do with him.
> NO, you are dead WRONG. It's hard to run, or else I would have left long ago. MY side.


You sound as if you base your perceptions of the IBEW on Miller alone. And it is NOT hard to get out. Go away... we don't need or want you. Quit paying your dues, and get out. PLEASE! Especially if you are a "ME" person. The IBEW is not for you:no:. 

And the IBEW DID NOT cause this recession:no:. Seems like you blame the IBEW for it, and to a narrow-minded "ME" person, that makes sense. At least Miller has an idea to fix it. He and I may disagree, but he is my brother, and we will continue this argument (in good faith) long after you have gone! And he doesn't sound like a "ME" person, either. 

There are two types of people in the world, jack. "WE" people & "ME" people. This nation was founded by "WE" people. Doubt it? Just read the Constitution of the USA! Or the Declaration of Independence. Really... READ IT:laughing:! And when you find out that YOU are the one with the issue, you can then, and only then, get on the road to recovery.

You say it's hard to get out... Why? People like you NEVER tell "WHY", because there really is no "WHY". There's plenty of "WHINE", though. Are you just a petty whiner? Do you think the non-union sector has a lot of work? Then go work it! I IMPLORE you to tell me why it is sooooo hard to get out! ":laughing YOU."

Once again, it's easy to run. It's easy to whine. And if you only want it the easy way, again, the IBEW is not for you. The road before us is not going to be easy, so save yourself the trouble! ":laughing YOU AGAIN!"

Please, reply with meaning... not rhetoric! If you think that EVERYONE can't see right through your BS, you are wrong. If you don't like Miller, or LGLS, or me, or anyone else, there is no one stopping you from leaving the ranks of membership. Again, there are many who would love to take your place, the first being the guy behind you on the book!

Didn't they ever tell you that you can travel?


----------



## boulengerina

What happened? Where the reply jackboot? Did I scare you off? :laughing:


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> What happened? Where the reply jackboot? Did I scare you off? :laughing:


 I'm sorry, is it ok that I stepped away from the computer?

Do you really have to bolster your ego is such a lame way? You are a prime example of an IBEW tough guy...

Can I have a second to respond, or will you again say that I am scared??


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> You sound as if you base your perceptions of the IBEW on Miller alone.


 No, I base it off of years of experience.


> And it is NOT hard to get out.


 Yes, it is. In this economy there aren't many options. Only a true IDIOT would cut ties right now. 



> And the IBEW DID NOT cause this recession. Seems like you blame the IBEW for it


 No, I did NOT blame the iBEW for the recession. That's idiotic to even say. So I am going to call you out, show me where I said that. I WILL be waiting. If you don't, then you are simply a liar.



> You say it's hard to get out... Why? People like you NEVER tell "WHY", because there really is no "WHY".


 I gave the reason above. So I guess I ended that streak of people never saying WHY, huh?



> There's plenty of "WHINE", though. Are you just a petty whiner?


 So anyone who thinks poorly of the IBEW or it's members actions is a whiner. THAT is another union mentality that I would like to get away from.


> I IMPLORE you to tell me why it is sooooo hard to get out!


 For the third time, I told you above. I shouldn't had to tell you, you should have the common sense to figure it out. It's too bad...


> Once again, it's easy to run. It's easy to whine. And if you only want it the easy way, again, the IBEW is not for you. The road before us is not going to be easy, so save yourself the trouble!


 You act like you're a brave soldier out on the battle field, when in reality, you are a petty cry baby and internet commando.


> Please, reply with meaning... not rhetoric!?


Coming from the guy who is posting like a 12 year old.


----------



## JackBoot

What happened? Where the reply jackboot*? Did I scare you off? :laughing:


*boulengerina


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> What happened? Where the reply jackboot*? Did I scare you off? :laughing:
> 
> 
> *boulengerina


You really sound mad at the IBEW. WOW. 

First, YOU said it was hard to get out. Lie. Not hard to get out, and you just admitted it. Your own self serving interests are what is keeping you here, not the IBEW. So, it IS NOT HARD to get out! It is hard for you to swallow the jagged little pill that jobs are hard to find right now, right? If the Brotherhood sux sooo bad, why do you need it to find work? 

You sound like a whiner. I never called you one, I asked if you were one, and maybe implied a little:whistling2:.

So once again... I ask you... WHAT IS SO TOUGH ABOUT GETTING OUT??? You want out so badly, so I challenge you to leave. You are a "ME" person. I take it, as you never refuted this. 

Why haven't you traveled? Too lazy? To easy to sit at home and pine away on the internet, huh? 

I'm looking for a solution to the big problem here, and may have found a small part of the answer. YOU need to go away, not Miller. YOU are the problem. YOU appreciate the wages, the benefits, the jobs, but do not appreciate the Union that has provided all of this for you. Sounds very ungrateful to me.

So while you pine away at your keyboard, some of us (hopefully MOST of us) will continue the logical and intellectual search for a solution. You do not offend me, or even tick me off. I am not an "internet commando", as you put it. I am in the trenches (sometimes literally!) everyday, seeking answers, and not crying away about how the IBEW sux. This organization is CERTAINLY NOT PERFECT, but if there is something better out there, why don't you go and find it? 

And if you don't appreciate the humor (scared you off), that's fine too. I really don't care. I am not mad at you, but you seem to be mad at me. I simply challenged your remarks, and you couldn't handle it.

So once again... What is so hard about getting out. You said it was hard to get out, and I want to know why? It seems like it is NOT CONVENIENT for you to get out RIGHT NOW. So which is the truth? Which one is your lie? C'mon... which is it?:laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

And jackboot... Do you even understand the meaning of the word "rhetoric"? Most of us 12 year olds do... but all I see is a bunch of rhetoric and personal attacks and excuses and such. And more rhetoric!


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## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> You really sound mad at the IBEW. WOW.


 Not the organization as much as some of it's members.


> First, YOU said it was hard to get out. Lie. Not hard to get out,


 It's not a lie, it's the truth, and I gave you the reasons.


> So, it IS NOT HARD to get out!


 Yet again, I gave you the reasons. Just because you want to continue to banter about it, it doesn't change the fact. Your opinion here is worthless.


> It is hard for you to swallow the jagged little pill that jobs are hard to find right now, right?


 Why would it be hard for ME to swallow that? *I am the one who told YOU that*. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


> So once again... I ask you... WHAT IS SO TOUGH ABOUT GETTING OUT???


 I told you already, many, many, many, many times... 



> You want out so badly, so I challenge you to leave.


 As soon as it's logical to do so, I will. 


> You are a "ME" person. I take it, as you never refuted this.


 We all are. Myself and my family- what other reason would I even go to work? 


> Why haven't you traveled? Too lazy?


Show me an open book in which I could make even 50% of my state's rate. Why would I travel to make less than I currently make here doing other work? You see, this is where the common sense goes RIGHT over your head.


> I'm looking for a solution to the big problem here, and may have found a small part of the answer. YOU need to go away, not Miller.


 Yes, because a hard working electrician who gives 8 for 8 EVERYDAY is bad for the IBEW while a thug is good. Keep showing us your intelligence.



> So while you pine away at your keyboard


 Tell me, what exactly are YOU doing right now?


> This organization is CERTAINLY NOT PERFECT, but if there is something better out there, why don't you go and find it?


 And while I try to help make it better, the other members are out bringing it down. That was my ENTIRE point from the beginning, but you can't see the forrest for the trees.


> I am not mad at you, but you seem to be mad at me. I simply challenged your remarks, and you couldn't handle it.


 If you think you are getting to me, you have a LOT to learn :thumbup:


> So once again... What is so hard about getting out.


 I told you already.


> You said it was hard to get out, and I want to know why?


 i told you already. Just because you don't like the answer, it doesn't make it not true.


> It seems like it is NOT CONVENIENT for you to get out RIGHT NOW.


 Was that hard to understand?


> So which is the truth? Which one is your lie? C'mon... which is it?:laughing:


When have I lied??


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## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> And jackboot... Do you even understand the meaning of the word "rhetoric"? Most of us 12 year olds do... but all I see is a bunch of rhetoric and personal attacks and excuses and such. And more rhetoric!


I answered every one of your questions with clear, factual answers. Every one of them.


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## JackBoot

A year ago I was sitting in the GC trailer talking about the progression of the job and out of the blue the GC told me how happy he is that he's working with union subs now. He explained some horror stories about non-union companies, everything from them not showing up 2 days a week to shoddy workmanship. I'm not saying this to bash any non-union company or worker, I am just relaying a story. At the time I had a full crew of men straight out of the hall because our core guys were tied up in a couple hospitals we needed to get done. These guys out of the hall gave 8 for 8 everyday, their work was top notch, not only impressing me, but the GC too. They *cared* about the work, and getting it done when necessary. 

At that time I was proud to be part of the IBEW.

Then times get slower and I put on my tools and go to work on another job next to a different crew of men out of the hall, these men are the epitome of "hall trash". Why should they have to do any work after 2:00? That last hour and a half is THEIR time (at $70+/hr). "_Nothing new after 2. Nothing dirty after 2:30_." The mentality was just sickening in every respect. When something NEEDED to get done, that was the time they made sure to work even slower because why would they want to "_Work themselves right out of a job._" I became the black sheep because I was the shop guy who actually worked all day, the comments and insults towards me were hilarious. 

And then I get called to pickets to see the pure thuggery that I mentioned many times.

Yes, miller_elex and boulengerina, those men with your mentality are doing great work for the IBEW name. Keep arguing for them...


----------



## Zog

About 50 posts ago I attempted to get back to the topic of this thread and for a short time we were actually discussing the core issues. Now it is all back to childish name calling and has reminded me why I don't venture into this part of the forum very often. 

As a person that has been on both sides of the union fence I thought I could contribute to help finding the core problems, but based on the last 50 posts I don't think things will ever change.


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## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> I answered every one of your questions with clear, factual answers. Every one of them.


It is either hard to get out, or inconvenient to get out... can't be both. I don't appreciate the attitudes of many members myself, but instead of running away, I choose to try to make things better. Hell, I disagree with a LOT of my fellow Americans, but that has never made me want to leave the country!

And if you were really concerned about the IBEW, and desired a change, you would not want out in the first place. 

And if I am not getting to you (which really is NOT my goal), why the personal attacks? I asked you questions, and you started name-calling. VERY MATURE.

When you became a member, you took an oath. An oath which you seem VERY willing to break. So I must assume that you didn't mean it when you took it. 

Let me ask you this... Why do you think your wages are as high as they are? Generous contractors? You seem intelligent enough to understand that the very organization for which you hold such contempt is the reason that your wages are so high. What are your wages? I may be able to HELP you find a shallow book2 that is moving, and in the ballpark that you desire, as I am a traveler myself during hard times such as this, and the network of a serious traveler is VAST. 

And there is more to this Brotherhood than you and your family. There are appx 750,000 members of the IBEW in the US and Canada, and they and their families count too. Do you see my point? The biggest benefit of the Union is the interdependence that we share, and the knowledge that together, we can achieve more than we can on our own! 

And I am not pining away at a keyboard... I am simply typing. I'm not faulting the IBEW because I am out of work (not saying that you are), I fault the last several Presidents and their administrations for that. I am seeking solutions. It may seem funny to you that a nobody like me would be audacious enough to do such a thing, but we all have to start somewhere! And what's wrong with that?

You seem VERY frustrated, and I don't blame you. It's easy to be frustrated in times like these. But you are not handling it properly, I don't think. I think that if you desire a change, you should seek it. Now that can mean different things. You could find change in the open shop. Or you can find change from the "inside out". The easy way is to drop your ticket and go non-Union. You say that you are fed up with the mentality and attitudes of members such as myself and Miller. Then show us a better approach! Don't run away with your tail between your legs and drop your ticket! Try to change things! But you will never sharpen those people skills so long as you stick to the name-calling and irate words of your posts. 

I admit, I may have misunderstood SOME of where you are coming from, and for this I am truly sorry. But it's your approach to it that I feel needs to change. Don't let other members (even Miller) influence any decision that you might make. YOU ARE NOT ALONE. Many of us are very upset about the silly practices of Locals and radical members. I personally DETEST the "us vs them" attitude shared by so many members, as evidenced by the posts on this site. Instead of getting all upset, channel that energy and passion into a force that affects CHANGE. Here in NC, we are GROWING due to a change in Local administration and attitudes! We are growing despite the recession. Despite the "Right to Work (for less) Law. Despite a feeling of distrust between the IBEW and the open shop electrician who has been called a "rat" for gosh knows how long. We are changing attitudes and perceptions and the friggin' WORK OUTLOOK simply by not acting like thugs. Being involved in the community. Good Faith bargaining. Not defending members who are fired for sleeping on the job. And so on. And NONE of this effects the representation of the membership. The perception by many members is that the Hall is there to defend them, no matter what. This is definitely NOT the case here. My Local will not defend the reprehensible. A member hangs himself here by acting foolishly on the job. 

I challenge you to change your attitude, and assist the "New IBEW" in seeking solutions. Please, ignore what I have told you in past posts, and stick with it. Try to see things as a member of an organization, and less as an individual. The IBEW is not you or me... It's US!


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Yes, miller_elex and boulengerina, those men with your mentality are doing great work for the IBEW name. Keep arguing for them...


I would encourage you to remember that Miller and I DISAGREE on the whole thuggery thing. Or haven't you been reading the posts? But I respect Miller, as he does not (at least towards me) resorted to name-calling and disrespectful behavior. 

I can appreciate the story you relayed above. You know how many times I have heard "Hide and seek for $2000 a week"? It makes me sick. I was even on a job where some mother fle [email protected]$$ had a bunch of shirts printed up that said that! And when I sneered at the guys handing them out and told them to grow up, I too became a black sheep! But remember... black wool costs more than white! My services to the contractor didn't end until the bell rang.


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## boulengerina

Zog said:


> About 50 posts ago I attempted to get back to the topic of this thread and for a short time we were actually discussing the core issues. Now it is all back to childish name calling and has reminded me why I don't venture into this part of the forum very often.
> 
> As a person that has been on both sides of the union fence I thought I could contribute to help finding the core problems, but based on the last 50 posts I don't think things will ever change.


I disagree... sometimes we need to "have it out" to identify the real problem. Jackboot is frustrated as hell, and that's ok. I took what he said as an attack on the Brotherhood which I hold so dear. And I believe I was wrong, to an extent. So many of us desire something more out of the Brotherhood, we just need to get on the same page, and move in a positive direction.:thumbsup:


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## boulengerina

Or to put it another way, *ACT LIKE UNION MEN/WOMEN*


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## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> I took what he said as an attack on the Brotherhood


It amazes me how upset guys can get when someone says anything about the union that may be critical. For instance when I point out that some union tactics are underhanded it is labeled as 'bashing the union' when all it is is pointing out how I see certain things about the union.

But these same people have no problem saying anything about non union people, 'Your a Rat" 'Your a scab" "You are untrained and unqualified" all of those are personal insults and are not constructive criticisms they are just plain digs.


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> It amazes me how upset guys can get when someone says anything about the union that may be critical. For instance when I point out that some union tactics are underhanded it is labeled as 'bashing the union' when all it is is pointing out how I see certain things about the union.
> 
> But these same people have no problem saying anything about non union people, 'Your a Rat" 'Your a scab" "You are untrained and unqualified" all of those are personal insults and are not constructive criticisms they are just plain digs.


Who asked you?:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Thanks for the relevant observation, bob!


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## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> Who asked you?


:thumbup:

I think jrannis (John) was holding his breath waiting for me to finally post. :laughing:


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## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I think jrannis (John) was holding his breath waiting for me to finally post. :laughing:


I think we ALL were! So, what do you think? JUST KIDDING!!!!!:laughing:


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## Bob Badger

boulengerina said:


> So, what do you think?


Well as long as you are asking ...........:jester:


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## brian john

Zog said:


> About 50 posts ago I attempted to get back to the topic of this thread and for a short time we were actually discussing the core issues. Now it is all back to childish name calling and has reminded me why I don't venture into this part of the forum very often.
> 
> As a person that has been on both sides of the union fence I thought I could contribute to help finding the core problems, but based on the last 50 posts I don't think things will ever change.


 
I figured this out 1245 post ago.


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## boulengerina

brian john said:


> I figured this out 1245 post ago.



You hang in there, Brian. We gonna prove ya wrong! Or maybe my grandkids will!:thumbsup:

We have to try.


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## wildleg

Zog said:


> About 50 posts ago I attempted to get back to the topic of this thread and for a short time we were actually discussing the core issues. Now it is all back to childish name calling and has reminded me why I don't venture into this part of the forum very often.
> 
> As a person that has been on both sides of the union fence I thought I could contribute to help finding the core problems, but based on the last 50 posts I don't think things will ever change.


 
ding ding ding B I N G O


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## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> It is either hard to get out, or inconvenient to get out... can't be both.


 It IS both. I don't know who you think you are that you set these rules as to what it can and can't be. 


> And if you were really concerned about the IBEW, and desired a change, you would not want out in the first place.


You can't make that statement without knowing how long I have been trying to change it. 

What do you expect, me to ride the sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean? Don't give up at any cost, even when my family is homeless? 


> And if I am not getting to you (which really is NOT my goal), why the personal attacks? I asked you questions, and you started name-calling. VERY MATURE.


 No, I did not start it, I NEVER start it, I simply reply in kind. You post like an adult, I reply the same way. You fill a post up with insults condescension, and 5 ":laughing: @ You", I reply in the same tone.


> When you became a member, you took an oath. An oath which you seem VERY willing to break. So I must assume that you didn't mean it when you took it.


 When you get married you take an oath too, what is your point? Should no one ever get divorced, no matter how unhappy they are? Should no one ever leave the IBEW, no matter how many years they have tried to get it to change without results?


> Let me ask you this... Why do you think your wages are as high as they are? Generous contractors? You seem intelligent enough to understand that the very organization for which you hold such contempt is the reason that your wages are so high. What are your wages?


 This is a totally separate conversation. Don't start with the "IBEW got you your wages" crap, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This topic is about the IBEW and it's thug members bringing losing market share, and not willing to realize why.


> And there is more to this Brotherhood than you and your family. There are appx 750,000 members of the IBEW in the US and Canada, and they and their families count too. Do you see my point?


 No, I do not, what is your point? That I should put other people and their family in front of my own? 


> And I am not pining away at a keyboard... I am simply typing. I'm not faulting the IBEW because I am out of work (not saying that you are),


 I AM. It's the fault of the IBEW for allowing it's members to bring such a negative light onto the entire organization, which has fueled it's continued loss of market share. That's the reason why miller-elex has no union work yet when out and found a non-union job. 


> It may seem funny to you that a nobody like me would be audacious enough to do such a thing, but we all have to start somewhere! And what's wrong with that?


 I really don't give a crap, sorry.


> You say that you are fed up with the mentality and attitudes of members such as myself and Miller. Then show us a better approach!


 Do I really have to spell it out for you??? Seriously?



> Don't run away with your tail between your legs and drop your ticket!


 LOL What sense does that make?


> Try to change things!


 Once again, for the 12th time, I have always tried, but all I get is opposition, just like *right now*.


> But you will never sharpen those people skills so long as you stick to the name-calling and irate words of your posts.


 If my posts are hurting your feelings, it's definitely time to shut off the computer and go find a more suiting activity.


> I challenge you to change your attitude, and assist the "New IBEW" in seeking solutions.


 How long? For life? For the 13th time, i HAVE been doing that, and it gets me no where. So what is your limit? Wait until I lose everything?


> The IBEW is not you or me... It's US!


THAT'S the point, when "US" is people like miller_elex, I don't want any part of it, I don't want to be associated with them. It's clear that I am not going to change their attitude, no matter how hard I try. So *NO*, I don't want it to be "US".


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## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> THAT'S the point, when "US" is people like miller_elex, I don't want any part of it, I don't want to be associated with them. It's clear that I am not going to change their attitude, no matter how hard I try. So *NO*, I don't want it to be "US".


Sorry for all your torment. I see that you have made up your mind, and that there is no changing it. Has it ever occurred to you that it may take LIFETIMES to change something that is larger than yourself? I have been trying, too. With some success, some failures. But I will never run. You will. That is our fundamental difference. But hey, at least our minds are made up! 

The influence of the IBEW on wages HAS EVERYTHING to do with it. We go away, and not only do wages recede, but so do worker's rights. 

Look, Jackboot, I apologized to you for MY misunderstanding of your statements. I think you have the right idea, with the radical members, but I will never agree with your approach. Heck, I don't even understand it. But then again, I have never run from anything in my whole life. So run. Good luck with it. Maybe you will get your wish, and the whole ship will go down. 
But I doubt it. Things are changing here in NC, and if they can change here, they can change anywhere. So sit on your bench full of contempt, or accept the offer to HELP, and tell me how much you need to make an hour! Or are you too proud? The offer stands. Message me. I know of book2's that ARE MOVING, and pay pretty well. And seriously, I DO NOT share that kind of info with anyone, but I will with you. I'll take the chance. 

Once again, I understand your frustration. I've been trying to change things for a long time myself. And I will never quit.

Best wishes, and I truly hope that you get to work soon.:thumbup:


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## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that it may take LIFETIMES to change something that is larger than yourself?


 Yes, that did occur to me. So the common sense took over and told me to stay away from it. What benefit would there be in a lifetime of work for no payoff? It's not like my children will be electrician, they will all be doctors :thumbsup:


> I have been trying, too. With some success, some failures. But I will never run. You will. That is our fundamental difference.


 Yes, I guess you will also stay in a marriage in which your wife is cheating on you. You'll NEVER run, right? Even when you're living on the street, you'll still be waving the IBEW flag, huh? 


> Look, Jackboot, I apologized to you for MY misunderstanding of your statements. I think you have the right idea, with the radical members, but I will never agree with your approach. Heck, I don't even understand it. But then again, I have never run from anything in my whole life. So run.


 LOL, you keep turning this into a way to puff up your chest and act tough. You continue to act innocent while you insinuate that I am a coward for looking to leave the IBEW, continually saying that I am running, that I'm running away with my tail between my legs, etc. etc. 

I'll ask again, would you ride a sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean, just so you can proudly proclaim that you'll never run?

Do you keep stocks no matter how low they go just so you can say that "you'll never run"?

How many other examples of people sticking with failing ventures do I have to cite for you to understand?

Once again, I'll ask another question that you haven't answered, How long should I stick with it? How many decades should I put work in to try and change the IBEW's image? How far down should I ride this sinking ship?



> Good luck with it. Maybe you will get your wish, and the whole ship will go down.


 Once again you post BS. My wish is for people like miller to be thrown out, *that is the answer to your question in the first post of this thread*. THAT would shed a good light on the IBEW and help it's market share. But the IBEW continues to embrace those people and their mentality. 



> or accept the offer to HELP, and tell me how much you need to make an hour! Or are you too proud?


 Too proud for what? As I told you, there are no open books that cover over what I can make at home doing other work, so why would I travel? That's the second time I told you, you just don't listen. All you do is talk and talk and talk. For once you should listen, maybe you'll learn something. Maybe then instead of arguing me you'd go and push miller-elex to change HIS ways- the *real* reason we are in this predicament.


EDITED to add: All I have done in the last 5 or 6 posts is wasted time typing the same thing over and over in a futile attempt to make you see the simple logic behind my dislike of the IBEW membership and the way it's run. I'm not going to continue going back and forth for no reason. So unless you have a new topic, I give you my permission to say that I am scared and ran off.


----------



## slickvic277

Back to the original topic.I think these tough times were going through right now are going to help us down the road.For to long things have been to good for a lot of guy's who simply don't deserve what the IBEW offers.My local was notorious for two things over the years bums and strong arm tactics.I'll address the first.

I have only been union for a short period of time but I have met a lot of journeyman and have gone out of my way to help a lot of apprentices.Most guy's are honest hard working guy's but there's a percentage of those that are just awful,awful all around workers.These types have been supported for years now by full employment and huge jobs were they can play "hide and seek for a grand a week".I am a proud union man but there have been times were I have seen my so-called brothers behaving in a way that made me embarrassed to be a member.

Maybe in these trying times we can shed some of this dead weight and wake some younger guy's up and realize that we need to change.
Having a strong work ethic and a professional attitude should not be looked down on as "scabby" or "shoprocket" or "ballwasher".

We as an international are getting our azz kicked by the non union.We need to stop acting like they don't know what there doing and were so far superior as craftsman.It's time to wake up!How can we command the highest wages and best conditions if we continue to be out produced and out worked.I have truly met some lazy bastards making 90k + a year.We cannot survive like this anymore.

Remember when you cost the most and make more then everyone else,your warts will stick out more then anyone's.The percentage I'm speaking about is a small percentage but not small enough.

Now I'll address the second,strong arm tactics.

It's not the 60's-70's anymore it's simply not working.The unions that are just not going to survive but thrive in the future are going to win battles with there brains not there fists.This is why my local has been dominating the area's market share for the past 15 years.We have great leadership and brains at the top.The day's of busting guy's up and rowdy picket lines are gone.We win our battles in court rooms,politics and organizing.We just didn't bring in members we brought in the contractors,in 15 years we went from 30 signatory contractors to 350 signatory contractors.Our biggest contractors are the ones that have organized and then grown.

We need to lead by example.There's a lot of internal things that need to change but the biggest is our own attitude.Were under attack on all sides,a more organized and educated non union workforce,anti-labor politicians,anti-labor legislation and thanks to the media a bad image in the public eye.But despite all these things were still our own worse enemy.

Our country needs organized labor more then ever but nobody will follow us down the path were headed.


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## JackBoot

slickvic277 said:


> Back to the original topic.I think these tough times were going through right now are going to help us down the road.For to long things have been to good for a lot of guy's who simply don't deserve what the IBEW offers.My local was notorious for two things over the years bums and strong arm tactics.I'll address the first.
> 
> I have only been union for a short period of time but I have met a lot of journeyman and have gone out of my way to help a lot of apprentices.Most guy's are honest hard working guy's but there's a percentage of those that are just awful,awful all around workers.These types have been supported for years now by full employment and huge jobs were they can play "hide and seek for a grand a week".I am a proud union man but there have been times were I have seen my so-called brothers behaving in a way that made me embarrassed to be a member.


 That's my exact position. I am in total agreement with you.


> Maybe in these trying times we can shed some of this dead weight and wake some younger guy's up and realize that we need to change.
> Having a strong work ethic and a professional attitude should not be looked down on as "scabby" or "shoprocket" or "ballwasher".


 Again, I agree. It's a shame that I am called a scab who is breaking conditions because I work the whole 8 hours that I am paid.


> We as an international are getting our azz kicked by the non union.We need to stop acting like they don't know what there doing and were so far superior as craftsman.It's time to wake up!How can we command the highest wages and best conditions if we continue to be out produced and out worked.I have truly met some lazy bastards making 90k + a year.We cannot survive like this anymore.


 Yup. especially not in this economy. Things were different when times were fat. Slugs were allowed to get away with way too much. I blame not only the union, but the signatory contractors for that.


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## slickvic277

> JackBoot;189098]That's my exact position. I am in total agreement with you.


I've been reading your posts and I urge you not to give up on the Brotherhood but to continue to lead by example.Get through to the next generation.



> Again, I agree. It's a shame that I am called a scab who is breaking conditions because I work the whole 8 hours that I am paid.


Don't ever compromise your work ethic.You'll be more respected by those that matter and those who don't are going to fall by the way-side. 



> Yup. especially not in this economy. Things were different when times were fat. Slugs were allowed to get away with way too much. I blame not only the union, but the signatory contractors for that.


I really don't know were the attitude comes from.I'm almost done the apprentice school here at the local and they preach the right things over and over again.But the false belief that were so far superior to the non union is perpetuating this attitude.


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## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> Back to the original topic.I think these tough times were going through right now are going to help us down the road.For to long things have been to good for a lot of guy's who simply don't deserve what the IBEW offers.My local was notorious for two things over the years bums and strong arm tactics.I'll address the first.
> 
> I have only been union for a short period of time but I have met a lot of journeyman and have gone out of my way to help a lot of apprentices.Most guy's are honest hard working guy's but there's a percentage of those that are just awful,awful all around workers.These types have been supported for years now by full employment and huge jobs were they can play "hide and seek for a grand a week".I am a proud union man but there have been times were I have seen my so-called brothers behaving in a way that made me embarrassed to be a member.
> 
> Maybe in these trying times we can shed some of this dead weight and wake some younger guy's up and realize that we need to change.
> Having a strong work ethic and a professional attitude should not be looked down on as "scabby" or "shoprocket" or "ballwasher".
> 
> We as an international are getting our azz kicked by the non union.We need to stop acting like they don't know what there doing and were so far superior as craftsman.It's time to wake up!How can we command the highest wages and best conditions if we continue to be out produced and out worked.I have truly met some lazy bastards making 90k + a year.We cannot survive like this anymore.
> 
> Remember when you cost the most and make more then everyone else,your warts will stick out more then anyone's.The percentage I'm speaking about is a small percentage but not small enough.
> 
> Now I'll address the second,strong arm tactics.
> 
> It's not the 60's-70's anymore it's simply not working.The unions that are just not going to survive but thrive in the future are going to win battles with there brains not there fists.This is why my local has been dominating the area's market share for the past 15 years.We have great leadership and brains at the top.The day's of busting guy's up and rowdy picket lines are gone.We win our battles in court rooms,politics and organizing.We just didn't bring in members we brought in the contractors,in 15 years we went from 30 signatory contractors to 350 signatory contractors.Our biggest contractors are the ones that have organized and then grown.
> 
> We need to lead by example.There's a lot of internal things that need to change but the biggest is our own attitude.Were under attack on all sides,a more organized and educated non union workforce,anti-labor politicians,anti-labor legislation and thanks to the media a bad image in the public eye.But despite all these things were still our own worse enemy.
> 
> Our country needs organized labor more then ever but nobody will follow us down the path were headed.


Well said, Slick! 

We need to talk about how you went from 30 to 350 contractors in a right to work state, too. My Local has realized that in order to obtain market share, you must organize contractors, and we can use all the help we can get. Do y'all use the CE/CW Program? Or did you do it in house, without the involvement of the IO?


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> That's my exact position. I am in total agreement with you.
> Again, I agree. It's a shame that I am called a scab who is breaking conditions because I work the whole 8 hours that I am paid.
> Yup. especially not in this economy. Things were different when times were fat. Slugs were allowed to get away with way too much. I blame not only the union, but the signatory contractors for that.


Then how on Earth can you and I disagree?


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> Then how on Earth can you and I disagree?


Because you're a mindless blowhard who talks and talks and talks instead of shutting up and listening for a second.


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Because you're a mindless blowhard who talks and talks and talks instead of shutting up and listening for a second.


I hope it delights you to know, that in essence, we do not disagree. but I will never bail out on the organization that has been so good to me and my family:no:. 

Sorry.


----------



## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> Well said, Slick!
> 
> We need to talk about how you went from 30 to 350 contractors in a right to work state, too. My Local has realized that in order to obtain market share, you must organize contractors, and we can use all the help we can get. Do y'all use the CE/CW Program? Or did you do it in house, without the involvement of the IO?



No,No,No we are not a right to work state.We fought it tooth and nail!
And we are not a CE/CW local.Hell I bet 90% of my local doesn't know what that is.

First Philadelphia is an extremely pro union town,we even get republican support right in the immediate suburbs.In the beginning we consumed the two smaller tele com locals(one ibew and one cwa).

Then we aggressively organized the largest contractors in the area(some took years but we never quit)In the beginning there was a use of strong arm tactics but it was a last resort and not a go to card.We have a master negotiater in our business manager and probably the best organizer/agent in the whole IBEW.

But the biggest factor was getting our house in order.Before the current administration took over we were a mess,divided amongst our selves and crumbling internally.The IO threatened to split our jurisdiction up and dissolve the local.Our current BM came up through the ranks and had a vision of a fully united local and that's what we have today.

From my understanding there was no "help" from the IO.It was all in house,Our organizers work in all reality around the clock 7 days a week.

You cannot stop the leak until you fix the roof.


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> I hope it delights you to know, that in essence, we do not disagree.


Then why the fudge do you keep arguing? Jeeze, :wacko:


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Then why the fudge do you keep arguing? Jeeze, :wacko:


Alright! Let's start over, ok? You and I agree on the fundamentals, right? Then at least we have that much in common. And again... I AM SORRY FOR JUMPIN IN YOU OATS! It just touches a nerve... and it IS my issue. Not yours.

Cool?


----------



## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> No,No,No we are not a right to work state.We fought it tooth and nail!
> And we are not a CE/CW local.Hell I bet 90% of my local doesn't know what that is.
> 
> First Philadelphia is an extremely pro union town,we even get republican support right in the immediate suburbs.In the beginning we consumed the two smaller tele com locals(one ibew and one cwa).
> 
> Then we aggressively organized the largest contractors in the area(some took years but we never quit)In the beginning there was a use of strong arm tactics but it was a last resort and not a go to card.We have a master negotiater in our business manager and probably the best organizer/agent in the whole IBEW.
> 
> But the biggest factor was getting our house in order.Before the current administration took over we were a mess,divided amongst our selves and crumbling internally.The IO threatened to split our jurisdiction up and dissolve the local.Our current BM came up through the ranks and had a vision of a fully united local and that's what we have today.
> 
> From my understanding there was no "help" from the IO.It was all in house,Our organizers work in all reality around the clock 7 days a week.
> 
> You cannot stop the leak until fix the roof.


Well, our Locals are in very different boats. We have the "great BM" part down, but that's about it. We do use the CE/CW program, and we ARE DEFINITELY a "right to work (for peanuts)" state. But we are having some successes with the new contractors. We can lock up the big work, but it's the small stuff that is killing us. This is the "land of the five man shop", if you catch my drift. And traditionally (at least here), the IBEW has not had that much to offer the smaller contractors. But the Assistant BM has developed a program that does offer something, and we are moving forward. Slowly, but progress is progress, especially right now.


----------



## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> Well, our Locals are in very different boats. We have the "great BM" part down, but that's about it. We do use the CE/CW program, and we ARE DEFINITELY a "right to work (for peanuts)" state. But we are having some successes with the new contractors. We can lock up the big work, but it's the small stuff that is killing us. This is the "land of the five man shop", if you catch my drift. And traditionally (at least here), the IBEW has not had that much to offer the smaller contractors. But the Assistant BM has developed a program that does offer something, and we are moving forward. Slowly, but progress is progress, especially right now.



Your definitely fighting an up hill battle.Do you have a job recovery fund?How about ties to politics,inspectors and community leaders.


----------



## JackBoot

boulengerina said:


> Alright! Let's start over, ok?


Ok...


and if you get any boxes of poop in the mail, it wasn't from me :whistling2:


----------



## slickvic277

JackBoot said:


> Ok...
> 
> 
> and if you get any boxes of poop in the mail, it wasn't from me :whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> Your definitely fighting an up hill battle.Do you have a job recovery fund?How about ties to politics,inspectors and community leaders.


We have no target or job recovery fund. Until about six years ago, we had trouble paying the lightbill! But all of that has changed, and man hours are through the roof right now, and the Local is SAVING money now.

We are deeply involved in politics, but that isn't worth very much down south. Even our so-called "friends" are scared to admit that they even know us, with a few exceptions (real friends!).

Most of the inspectors here in town are ex-members, but that hasn't helped a whole helluva lot, either! We have good relations with them, but if they "assist" us, they would likely lose their jobs. 

So far, our contractor organizing has been PURELY economical, as so many contractors here in NC can't find good help, and we actually have a functioning and operational JATC. And we have begun to assist the small contractors with their marketing needs, job leads, and business development. It's a tough row to hoe, but like I said, we are making progress. The hard way. 

Unions here have been backed up against the wall for so long, that they have either barely survived, or vanished completely. The IBEW falls into the first category. But what it has done is strengthen our resolve, and our contractors have developed some very sharp pencils. Now we are growing in a recession, both in membership and signatories. 

Definitely a different situation. But we will prevail, as we never give up. The '80's and '90's were tough, and if we can survive that, i still feel that we can win it all!


----------



## Southeast Power

miller_elex said:


> I want the IBEW to have a bad-ass image.
> 
> The more pictures we put out of a rat with a shishkabob stick up its a55 the better.
> 
> The brotherhood can't please everyone, and it sure can't please a bunch of greedy two-man shop rat contractors, with one owner and one pimply-faced teeny bopper chugging rockstars.
> 
> What the brotherhood can do, is standup for the working man out there on the job, and it does that for union and non-union alike. If you are working in the field today, and have no plans to work in the office tomorrow, the IBEW deserves your gratitude, as it has ensured you have a middle-class wage and safe working conditions, wherever and whoever you are.


Bump up for Bob:jester:


----------



## slickvic277

boulengerina said:


> We have no target or job recovery fund. Until about six years ago, we had trouble paying the lightbill! But all of that has changed, and man hours are through the roof right now, and the Local is SAVING money now.
> 
> We are deeply involved in politics, but that isn't worth very much down south. Even our so-called "friends" are scared to admit that they even know us, with a few exceptions (real friends!).
> 
> Most of the inspectors here in town are ex-members, but that hasn't helped a whole helluva lot, either! We have good relations with them, but if they "assist" us, they would likely lose their jobs.
> 
> So far, our contractor organizing has been PURELY economical, as so many contractors here in NC can't find good help, and we actually have a functioning and operational JATC. And we have begun to assist the small contractors with their marketing needs, job leads, and business development. It's a tough row to hoe, but like I said, we are making progress. The hard way.
> 
> Unions here have been backed up against the wall for so long, that they have either barely survived, or vanished completely. The IBEW falls into the first category. But what it has done is strengthen our resolve, and our contractors have developed some very sharp pencils. Now we are growing in a recession, both in membership and signatories.
> 
> Definitely a different situation. But we will prevail, as we never give up. The '80's and '90's were tough, and if we can survive that, i still feel that we can win it all!



The south is brutal,we need to fight this right to work crap.Are you getting buried by questionable "immigrants" working for contractors?
Do you have personal involved with the local AHJ decision makers?Do you guy's have someone on top of PW jobs.You have to be tough,make sure E.C.'s are licensed,pulling permits,paying taxes,have legal business offices,the proper zoning,etc,etc.

In other words try to level the playing field as much as possible.


----------



## boulengerina

JackBoot said:


> Ok...
> 
> 
> and if you get any boxes of poop in the mail, it wasn't from me :whistling2:


Fair enough. And if you ever need anyone to listen... DON'T CALL BOB BADGER!!!!:laughing:

And I will have my secretary open my mail from now on.:thumbsup:


----------



## miller_elex

Jackboots, you are as much a shoprocket ballwasher as I am an internet tough guy. Not that I don't bust my friggin hump like a wild hillbilly, I've done that, it is because people like you cozy up to the PM's and sabotage anyone's effort who comes in from outside the wagons and is a threat to the appearance of your (in)competence to run work profitibly.

All the above in the name of people like yourself and other suckups working in collusion to secretly hoard the overtime, because your mortgaged to the hilt to pay for yur RV trailer, boat, quads, new plasma tv, and 2500 sqft house with a hottub out in the county. That's why you (can't) won't leave the brotherhood, any deviation from the yes-man mentality and its all up in smoke. What a soul-less existence. 

I hope your PM doesn't screw the pooch, because if he's gone, your gone, and all his other foremen are tainted by the association. Heh heh heh...


----------



## boulengerina

slickvic277 said:


> The south is brutal,we need to fight this right to work crap.Are you getting buried by questionable "immigrants" working for contractors?
> Do you have personal involved with the local AHJ decision makers?Do you guy's have someone on top of PW jobs.You have to be tough,make sure E.C.'s are licensed,pulling permits,paying taxes,have legal business offices,the proper zoning,etc,etc.
> 
> In other words try to level the playing field as much as possible.


We are *SWAMPED* with immigrant workers. Tens of thousands in the Charlotte area alone. And with the establishment here... let's just say that WE and our contractors are just about the only ones against it (and many other people, but not the "right" ones). 

There is no Prevailing Wage work here, and if there was, it wouldn't be worth the time. No kidding, the PW herein Charlotte is about $12.00 an hour.

And as far as licensing, Mecklenburg County (and most of the surrounding areas) requires ONE licensed electrician per permit, no matter the size of the job! And to call yourself a contractor, all you need is a State License.

This area is as non-Union as it gets. The only state in the whole country with lower Union density than NC is SC! So I guess we aren't quite the worst, but 1% separates us! If there was one new Nuke under construction in SC right now, they would have a higher density than us!

Right now, it seems that we are relegated to organizing contractors the "new" way, and that involves a sales pitch. Seldom works, but if you pitch 100, and sign 1, then that is progress.

Things really are that bad here. I swear I am not exaggerating. But like I said, it has made us stronger and all the more determined to gain ground. By the way, our contractors help. Weird, but cool. The Local here has very good relations with the signatories, and everybody plays by the rules, with very few exceptions. I think that helps, and speaks VOLUMES for the "believers" here in the Old North State!


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Bump up for Bob:jester:


:tt2: ......... :yawn: ........... :sleeping:


----------



## boulengerina

miller_elex said:


> Jackboots, you are as much a shoprocket ballwasher as I am an internet tough guy. Not that I don't bust my friggin hump like a wild hillbilly, I've done that, it is because people like you cozy up to the PM's and sabotage anyone's effort who comes in from outside the wagons and is a threat to the appearance of your (in)competence to run work profitibly.
> 
> All the above in the name of people like yourself and other suckups working in collusion to secretly hoard the overtime, because your mortgaged to the hilt to pay for yur RV trailer, boat, quads, new plasma tv, and 2500 sqft house with a hottub out in the county. That's why you (can't) won't leave the brotherhood, any deviation from the yes-man mentality and its all up in smoke. What a soul-less existence.
> 
> I hope your PM doesn't screw the pooch, because if he's gone, your gone, and all his other foremen are tainted by the association. Heh heh heh...


Dang, Miller... I just got him calmed down! He makes some good points. The whole "rat" thing is over. In the past. We cannot act like we run the show where I'm at, because we don't. And that kind of attitude doesn't work here. It almost killed us. It may work for you for now, but eventually, I think it is likely that it will bite you on the butt!

Why can't we all get along?:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## boulengerina

Bob Badger said:


> ........... :sleeping:


Good idea. See y'all later.


----------



## miller_elex

Isn't it funny, contractors say this alot,

'Don't make it an us versus them, a non-union vs union thing.'

It isn't a 'union vs, non-union' thing. You contractors try to frame the debate to bring yourselves into alignment with the electricians you employ, and often times take advantage of.

The debate is re-framed. It is now a, 'craft vs managment' thing.

More craftsmen must come to the realization that we have the right to collude with each other to bring up wages and conditions, just like managment and owners are all members of associations colluding to lower wages and conditions. Funny, I never read an IEC ABC pamphlet proclaiming higher wages and benefits for craftsmen. More to the flavor of, Mr. Owner, sign-up with us and be granted access to our union-busting labor attorney, and our glorious group plan called HealthNet, they may as well have no health plan at all mua-ha hah haha!


----------



## Charlie K

There was an article in the Journal a while ago about the IBEW's efforts in NC. It was a good reading about the Local signing up contractors and the locals getting established.

Charlie


----------



## william1978

Charlie K said:


> There was an article in the Journal a while ago about the IBEW's efforts in NC. It was a good reading about the Local signing up contractors and the locals getting established.
> 
> Charlie


 Now that you mention that I remember reading that also.:thumbsup:


----------



## JackBoot

miller_elex said:


> Jackboots, you are as much a shoprocket ballwasher as I am an internet tough guy. Not that I don't bust my friggin hump like a wild hillbilly, I've done that, it is because people like you cozy up to the PM's and sabotage anyone's effort who comes in from outside the wagons and is a threat to the appearance of your (in)competence to run work profitibly.
> 
> All the above in the name of people like yourself and other suckups working in collusion to secretly hoard the overtime, because your mortgaged to the hilt to pay for yur RV trailer, boat, quads, new plasma tv, and 2500 sqft house with a hottub out in the county. That's why you (can't) won't leave the brotherhood, any deviation from the yes-man mentality and its all up in smoke. What a soul-less existence.
> 
> I hope your PM doesn't screw the pooch, because if he's gone, your gone, and all his other foremen are tainted by the association. Heh heh heh...


I would feel inclined to reply to this post if *any single part of it was correct in any way whatsoever*. But since everything you assumed about me is wrong, what would be the purpose in replying?


----------



## slickvic277

miller_elex said:


> Isn't it funny, contractors say this alot,
> 
> 'Don't make it an us versus them, a non-union vs union thing.'
> 
> It isn't a 'union vs, non-union' thing. You contractors try to frame the debate to bring yourselves into alignment with the electricians you employ, and often times take advantage of.
> 
> The debate is re-framed. It is now a, 'craft vs managment' thing.
> 
> More craftsmen must come to the realization that we have the right to collude with each other to bring up wages and conditions, just like managment and owners are all members of associations colluding to lower wages and conditions. Funny, I never read an IEC ABC pamphlet proclaiming higher wages and benefits for craftsmen. More to the flavor of, Mr. Owner, sign-up with us and be granted access to our union-busting labor attorney, and our glorious group plan called HealthNet, they may as well have no health plan at all mua-ha hah haha!



Miller I agree whole heartedly,that more then ever we(labor)need to bolster our efforts at procuring better wages,better conditions and a higher and higher standard of living.And of course the ABC and IECA are doing everything in there power to dilute the rights and wages of labor so to bolster the lining of there pockets at the expense of our sweat.

But this aside don't you think that there is some change needed in the mind sets of some of OUR union.No matter what attacks are launched from the outside an organization will most certainly crumble if the inside is weak.

Einsteins definition of insanity was "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time."


----------



## miller_elex

slickvic277 said:


> .No matter what attacks are launched from the outside an organization will most certainly crumble if the inside is weak.


The inside is strong as hell here. Market share is super high. Even the republicans love being in the union. Go figure.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> The inside is strong as hell here. Market share is super high. Even the republicans love being in the union. Go figure.


It is your stunning personality that draws them.:no::no::no::no:


----------



## electricmanscott

There used to be a thing called self reliance. Not anymore. It's all about the handouts.



Sad.


----------



## slickvic277

miller_elex said:


> The inside is strong as hell here. Market share is super high. Even the republicans love being in the union. Go figure.



Just as were strong in Philly too.But it's not the reality for the vast majority of the IBEW.

We need more market share through out the international to survive as an organization.Philly has an estimated 90% market share,But our sister locals are floundering.Why?We cannot continue to rely on the strength of a few locals(Philly,Oregon.San fran,Chicago,New york)To carry the whole International.Wouldn't you agree?Don't you think we need an attitude adjustment?We can change our attitude and still retain our edge.


----------



## oldman

there is a definition of insanity...talks about doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results...

it seems to me, the locals that are prospering realized that they had to change their ways...and the locals who are dying, are still doing things the same way they always have...

the OP asked about repairing the IBEW's 'damaged reputation'....there have been lots of suggestions from people outside of the IBEW...the one's who really determine if the IBEW is 'damaged' or not...not just electricians, but contractors, GC's and the general public....

but too many of the IBEW members on this board, either A - don't think there is any problem with the IBEW's reputation, or B- get incredibly defensive when someone doesn't stand in awe of their awesomeness...

So, the end result is this....IBEW members and locals who understand that there is a fundamental shift in the world lately will adapt and thrive...those that ignore the facts will continue business as usual and get the same results....


----------



## miller_elex

And I think Oldman's point resonates, and is a good conclusion to the thread.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> And I think Oldman's point resonates, and is a good conclusion to the thread.


Wisest statement on this thread and way beyond your young years.:thumbsup:


----------



## miller_elex

I don't want to disappoint B. John. 

After my noon nap, I plan to crawl over to mommas teet and drink a warm meal. After that, it'll be two rockstars and rope a neighbor kid's tree house. Then off to the fifth week of my first-term in the apprenticeship. Tonight I will again ponder why I am still a nineteen year old virgin, being sleepless, will go down to the fridge in my parents house for some milk and some of gramma's cookies. Then I will play my X-Box until the sun rises, and ride the city bus to my Americorps project in the ghetto for my pre-apprenticeship training on what a switchleg is. When my day is finished, I will log onto ElectricianTalk and naively presume to talk some sense into a bunch of boneheads. 

Now you happy to know the truth?


----------



## brian john

Glad to see my sarcasm is working.:whistling2:


----------



## JackBoot

Hey guys, what's going on in here?? :w00t:


----------



## user4818

JackBoot said:


> Hey guys, what's going on in here?? :w00t:



:lol:


----------



## 480sparky

Don't mind me.
I'm just here for the show.​


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> Don't mind me.
> I'm just here for the show.​


----------



## B4T

480sparky said:


> Don't mind me.
> 
> I'm just here for the show.​


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## JackBoot

Black4Truck said:


> :laughing::laughing:


:ban:


----------



## brian john

:ban::lol::yawn::drink:

What this thread has become in no particular order.


----------



## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> :ban::lol::yawn::drink:
> 
> What this thread has become in no particular order.



Come on give it a chance, just a few more posts and we will all be in agreement. 

After that we will all meet and have a group hug. :laughing:


----------



## paul d.

ground up or down ? twist or no twist ? does " power saver " really work ?:whistling2: i'm so confused. :blink:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> there is a definition of insanity...talks about doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results...
> 
> it seems to me, the locals that are prospering realized that they had to change their ways...and the locals who are dying, are still doing things the same way they always have...
> 
> the OP asked about repairing the IBEW's 'damaged reputation'....there have been lots of suggestions from people outside of the IBEW...the one's who really determine if the IBEW is 'damaged' or not...not just electricians, but contractors, GC's and the general public....
> 
> but too many of the IBEW members on this board, either A - don't think there is any problem with the IBEW's reputation, or B- get incredibly defensive when someone doesn't stand in awe of their awesomeness...
> 
> So, the end result is this....IBEW members and locals who understand that there is a fundamental shift in the world lately will adapt and thrive...those that ignore the facts will continue business as usual and get the same results....


Well isn't that just grand? So, the contractors, GC's and the "general public" all want the same thing? Are you considering that the EC's and the union members constitute part of that "general public?" Let's see what else the GC's want... oh, full mobilization and 33% of the job done on credit... 

No matter where an IBEW local sets the bar, it's never going to be low enough for the GCs and some contractors Oldman. Not as long as they see a way to take some of what's going into my pocket and my brother's pockets and put it in their's instead. 

And from everything I've experienced, and have picked up in regards to other locals around the country, things are changing. But unless something drastic occurs with the "right-to-work-for-less" laws I doubt we'll see too many giant leaps foward. There are too many cards stacked up against labor these days, much of if corporate anti-union campaign driven.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well isn't that just grand? So, the contractors, GC's and the "general public" all want the same thing? Are you considering that the EC's and the union members constitute part of that "general public?" Let's see what else the GC's want... oh, full mobilization and 33% of the job done on credit...
> 
> No matter where an IBEW local sets the bar, it's never going to be low enough for the GCs and some contractors Oldman. Not as long as they see a way to take some of what's going into my pocket and my brother's pockets and put it in their's instead.
> 
> And from everything I've experienced, and have picked up in regards to other locals around the country, things are changing. But unless something drastic occurs with the "right-to-work-for-less" laws I doubt we'll see too many giant leaps foward. There are too many cards stacked up against labor these days, much of if corporate anti-union campaign driven.


the cards are getting stacked against labor for one main reason...the US is, and has always been, a country of merit...not a country of entitlement...

sorry...

what is the update to that MTA fiasco? who gave the wrong info?


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> Come on give it a chance, just a few more posts and we will all be in agreement.
> 
> After that we will all meet and have a group hug. :laughing:


----------



## AFOREMA1

:bangin:


paul d. said:


> ground up or down ? twist or no twist ? does " power saver " really work ?:whistling2: i'm so confused. :blink:


:bangin: DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW!


----------



## AFOREMA1

480sparky said:


>


:2guns: NO STINKING GROUP HUGS


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> the cards are getting stacked against labor for one main reason...the US is, and has always been, a country of merit...not a country of entitlement...


Really... 
We've covered the issue where men who don't perform up to the standard get fired. Yet there are still those who claim the locals protect the "slugs" at all costs. I guess I just have blinders on.



> what is the update to that MTA fiasco? who gave the wrong info?


ConEd construction contractor couldn't tell the difference between "drop down" and "stub up." All is good, they weren't there for us. This is partially due to the utility's use of a job numbering system that never identifies the customer or project by lettered name, and management is pretty much unavailable at night.


----------



## brian john

:bangin:


I am learning SOOOOOOOO MUCH ABOUT SMILIES>










THis thread has had a positive influence.


----------



## Zog

oldman said:


> the cards are getting stacked against labor for one main reason...the US is, and has always been, a country of merit...not a country of entitlement...


Very well said oldman. There is a huge sennse of entitlement in the unions and that is what drove me out, my career took off as soon as I left because I was able to show what I am capable of with out being told I need to slow down or stop making people look stupid. My life is no longer limited by union scales, rules, images, or boards. 

Look at the famous success stories in business in this country, show me one that was union (Besides the mobsters)


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> the cards are getting stacked against labor for one main reason...the US is, and has always been, a country of merit...not a country of entitlement...


Actually Oldman, it isn't a country of "merit" it is a country of ignorant workers who are purposely kept unaware of, or afraid to excersize their constitutional rights. It is a country where business has sucessfully convinced workers that their pay and overall success is or will be based on "merit" even though that is proven to be false time and time again.

The best workers do not necessarily see the best wages, and neither do the worst see the worst. 

The "merit" system is a system geared towards getting the most production out of EVERY worker, it's a carrot on a stick, and the end result is all the workers lose. Even the apparent winner.

And it is clear, the apparent winners are the most outspoken about how well this system works... (for them) but I believe this opinion is based more on ego than fact. I base this observation on my organizing efforts - the most vehmently opposed, difficult, and outspoken naysayer is usually the shops "top guy" or guys who equate the prospect of EVERY journeyman earning a good minimum equal pay to their fall from grace.

"You mean Joe-so-and-so, who I can pipe circles around, will get the same pay as me?!?!?!" ... But not the least bit fazed that they'd ALL be earning a better hourly wage, the focus instead is on the differential in wages, or lack thereof. 

It is apparent reading this board - that for many of the posters here it isn't enough that they are good at what they do - but that they really get their rocks off that they are better than someone else. I dunno but isn't one of the 7 deadly sins pride?


----------



## paul d.

LGLS, since you dont like our American, free enterprise system, what other system would you want to see implemented here ? France? China ? :blink:


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Actually Oldman, it isn't a country of "merit" it is a country of ignorant workers who are purposely kept unaware of, or afraid to excersize their constitutional rights. It is a country where business has sucessfully convinced workers that their pay and overall success is or will be based on "merit" even though that is proven to be false time and time again.


So typical everybody is dumb or ignorant but me. I KNOW WHAT IS BETTER FOR THE MASSES, falls in line with the entitlement thought.



> The best workers do not necessarily see the best wages, and neither do the worst see the worst.


The world is not fair BUT in my experience both open shop and union I always made top wages as did the BEST WORKERS, average guys made average pay and slackers often stayed home. 



> The "merit" system is a system geared towards getting the most production out of EVERY worker, it's a carrot on a stick, and the end result is all the workers lose. Even the apparent winner.


Now who is showing their ignorance of HUMAN NATURE.

On this topic we we never agree but I thought there could be some middle ground. I think I am in the middle somewhere you on this subject are to ingrained with the union blood.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> So typical everybody is dumb or ignorant but me. I KNOW WHAT IS BETTER FOR THE MASSES, falls in line with the entitlement thought.


And you'r "I know what's better" doesn't??? 



> The world is not fair BUT in my experience both open shop and union I always made top wages as did the BEST WORKERS, average guys made average pay and slackers often stayed home.


Only "often" stayed home? You couldn't kill them? It isn't enough to earn overscale, you think workers who don't pass the center of the bell curve should just curl up and die?



> Now who is showing their ignorance of HUMAN NATURE.
> 
> On this topic we we never agree but I thought there could be some middle ground. I think I am in the middle somewhere you on this subject are to ingrained with the union blood.


You are nowhere near the middle.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> you think workers who don't pass the center of the bell curve should just curl up and die?


No not die, get paid less, find a different means of earning a living etc.

Just because someone wants to do a certain job does not entitle them to do it.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It is apparent reading this board - that for many of the posters here it isn't enough that they are good at what they do - but that they really get their rocks off that they are better than someone else.


 
What someone who finishes second always says.


I'll take fruit cakes recipes for $400 Alex.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No not die, get paid less, find a different means of earning a living etc.
> 
> Just because someone wants to do a certain job does not entitle them to do it.


 
So we get rid of them and replace them with a whole new set Bob... then what, oh yea, everyone gets readjusted and we end up with the same thing all over again - good, better best...

Your life's work and your craft shouldn't be run like a NASCAR race. That is a game - getting your employees to pit against each other all to the boss's benefit, for the top prize. One gets it, the rest lost but put out almost as much effort, while the boss laughs all the way to the bank with the money that everyone could have shared and everyone couls have done better... without breaking a sweat...


----------



## electricmanscott

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So we get rid of them and replace them with a whole new set Bob... then what, oh yea, everyone gets readjusted and we end up with the same thing all over again - good, better best...
> 
> Your life's work and your craft shouldn't be run like a NASCAR race. That is a game - getting your employees to pit against each other all to the boss's benefit, for the top prize. One gets it, the rest lost but put out almost as much effort, while the boss laughs all the way to the bank with the money that everyone could have shared and everyone couls have done better... without breaking a sweat...


The boss SHOULD be making a ton of money.


Rather than looking at the boss through jealous eyes why not become the boss?


----------



## user4818

electricmanscott said:


> The boss SHOULD be making a ton of money.
> 
> 
> Rather than looking at the boss through jealous eyes why not become the boss?



Because then he would have to start ranting and raving against himself.


----------



## electricmanscott

Peter D said:


> Because then he would have to start ranting and raving against himself.


Tru dat. :thumbup:

Yeah I spent some time on the streets


----------



## LGLS

electricmanscott said:


> The boss SHOULD be making a ton of money.
> 
> 
> Rather than looking at the boss through jealous eyes why not become the boss?


Because it's easier to stop the inasnity, the inequality, the unfairness, and get EVERYBODY a good living wage, and let the boss deal. :thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Your life's work and your craft shouldn't be run like a NASCAR race.


Unless I am doing it for free it is not my work, I have been compisated for it. 

And sure it would be nice if we could take all the time we want but that is not real life.





> getting your employees to pit against each other all to the boss's benefit, for the top prize.



As it should be.



> while the boss laughs all the way to the bank with the money that everyone could have shared and everyone couls have done better... without breaking a sweat...


That make no sense at all.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Because it's easier to stop the inasnity, the inequality, the unfairness, and get EVERYBODY a good living wage, and let the boss deal. :thumbup:


You know I just have to ask........exactly what $$ figure, or % of a job....do *YOU and your bretheren* feel is fair and or correct for the boss to be able to have or take home?????????

You make it seem like out of a job....30% is materials...10% is overhead....5% is labor...and 55% is the bossmans.....:blink:


----------



## 10492

Shado said:


> You know I just have to ask........exactly what $$ figure, or % of a job....do *YOU and your bretheren* feel is fair and or correct for the boss to be able to have or take home?????????
> 
> You make it seem like out of a job....30% is materials...10% is overhead....5% is labor...and 55% is the bossmans.....:blink:


I think it was brought up earlier that it depends on the total cost of the project or some crap like that.


----------



## user4818

Dnkldorf said:


> I think it was brought up earlier that it depends on the total cost of the project or some crap like that.


Yeah, more proportional to the cost of the finished product. Or a living wage. Or something contradictory like that.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Unless I am doing it for free it is not my work, I have been compisated for it.


Step 1 - devalue labor's worth. Fact is you are necessary. Boss needs to counteract that... 



> And sure it would be nice if we could take all the time we want but that is not real life.


Not suggesting you take all the time you want, but, if something takes 4 hours and you do it in 2, are you compensated DOUBLE? No. Never... 



> As it should be.


Your opinion.



> That make no sense at all.


I can't fix ignorance.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not suggesting you take all the time you want, but, if something takes 4 hours and you do it in 2, are you compensated DOUBLE? No. Never...


 
What if it takes 6 hrs, can we dock you two hours for not peforming up to your level?

It's a trade-off.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> What if it takes 6 hrs, can we dock you two hours for not peforming up to your level?
> 
> It's a trade-off.


No, because you already decided what the hourly compensation would be.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, because you already decided what the hourly compensation would be.


You're kidding.....right?


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not suggesting you take all the time you want, but, if something takes 4 hours and you do it in 2, are you compensated DOUBLE? No. Never...


 
Dude!!! If it takes 4 hours...it takes 4 hours.....it takes whatever time it takes to get it done. You have a poop time too???

Just because you may drag azz and make it 4 hrs...and the next guy only needs 2 hrs.....he is wrong????? Where do you get your logic from? 

Who died and left you with all the secrets of life????


----------



## 480sparky

Don't mind me.

This is getting good again.


Although, I do feel sorry for anyone who has taken the time to read through this entire thread only to find themselves, well, right here.​


----------



## brian john

Shado said:


> Who died and left you with all the secrets of life????


 
That is the logic of anyone lost on the extreme of any iussue. YOU ARE STUPID I KNOW BETTER. 

No middle of the road, no working with the other side, slash and burn then when they are left holding their 
d i c k in the wind, wetting themselves they blame the old no longer around previous leaders.


----------



## oldman

ironically, the people of this country are getting sick and tired of not only the union entitlement mentality, but also the corporate heads entitlement mentality...i agree that some guy who didn't build the company, should not be paid $10mil+/yr to run it into debt...

but that doesn't change the fact that some guy who produces $200k/yr in revenue is not worth $150k/yr in salary...

as for doing a 4 hr project in 2 hrs, there are tons of guys who get compensated double for it...most of them work on commission...or piecework...but they also take some risk...since if they do it in 6 hrs, they don't earn as much...heck, it's been this way in the auto mechanic field forever...

one other thing...as a boss, I don't need employees in order for me to survive and support myself...as an employee, you need a boss to find work and give you a paycheck...

just watched a show last night about a tunnel that they dug in New Zealand...project was projected to take 4 yrs...ended up taking 5...after watching the show and being told how marvelous the project was...how the engineers overcame all kinds of difficulties...yada, yada, yada...there was a 1 sentence blip that mentioned that the 'contractors lost millions and millions of dollars' because it took longer...every worker on that project got paid for every hour that they worked...no risk...but the contractors lost millions $...

soon as the employees share that risk, then they are entitled to more of the potential profits...

until then, they are just a cog in the wheel...like a tool or material...sorry...


----------



## oldman

double post...


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> soon as the employees share that risk, then they are entitled to more of the potential profits...until then, they are just a cog in the wheel...like a tool or material...sorry...


You should not have to be sorry for speaking the truth.


----------



## Southeast Power

oldman;190528
just watched a show last night about a tunnel that they dug in New Zealand...project was projected to take 4 yrs...ended up taking 5...after watching the show and being told how marvelous the project was...how the engineers overcame all kinds of difficulties...yada said:


> It could be much worse.
> The contractors could have made millions, been declared greedy and have been accused of overcharging for the project.:blink:


----------



## oldman

jrannis said:


> It could be much worse.
> The contractors could have made millions, been declared greedy and have been accused of overcharging for the project.:blink:


true...thankfully, that wasn't the case...that would have been bad:001_huh:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> ironically, the people of this country are getting sick and tired of not only the union entitlement mentality, but also the corporate heads entitlement mentality...i agree that some guy who didn't build the company, should not be paid $10mil+/yr to run it into debt...


I doubt the people of this country would begrudge a union worker making a middle class salary, benefits, and pension who is also subject to layoffs and the cylical construction economy. At least, wouldn't have the same distain as for corporate heads.



> but that doesn't change the fact that some guy who produces $200k/yr in revenue is not worth $150k/yr in salary...


Do you believe the above is the case? 



> as for doing a 4 hr project in 2 hrs, there are tons of guys who get compensated double for it...most of them work on commission...or piecework...but they also take some risk...since if they do it in 6 hrs, they don't earn as much...heck, it's been this way in the auto mechanic field forever...


Anywhere a license is required, piecework is illegal. In fact, any "pieceworker" claiming to be self-employed automatically becomes an employee if more than 50% of his income is derived from one source. 

Of course, if we reclassify employees as pieceworkers then you cannot use them as a comparison here, as they become contractors themselves and lose employee status. 



> one other thing...as a boss, I don't need employees in order for me to survive and support myself...as an employee, you need a boss to find work and give you a paycheck...


No, as a boss you could become a one man shop, but then you've really made yourself the employee of whomever awards you a job. Any of the work you could no longer take on would be up for grabs. 



> just watched a show last night about a tunnel that they dug in New Zealand...project was projected to take 4 yrs...ended up taking 5...after watching the show and being told how marvelous the project was...how the engineers overcame all kinds of difficulties...yada, yada, yada...there was a 1 sentence blip that mentioned that the 'contractors lost millions and millions of dollars' because it took longer...every worker on that project got paid for every hour that they worked...no risk...but the contractors lost millions $...


There's got to be more to it, as no contractor would take on a 4-year tunnel project without provisions for delays not in their control. It's possible a timely completion bonus was lost, but that's not the same as losing millions, it's simply the loss of a bonus.

Large corporations like GM often claim they've lost millions... but their logic is based on income projection goals unmet. (Meaning, we thought this line of vehicles would sell like hotcakes, but it didn't, so we didn't make the 400 million dollar goal, we only made the 300 million dollar mark, therefore, we "lost" 100 million dollars.) 



> soon as the employees share that risk, then they are entitled to more of the potential profits...
> 
> until then, they are just a cog in the wheel...like a tool or material...sorry...


Not really, as you cannot decide how much your parts are going to cost or what you feel like paying for a tool. It costs what it costs. Pay the price and you get the part and then the machine can work.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I doubt the people of this country would begrudge a union worker making a middle class salary, benefits, and pension who is also subject to layoffs and the cylical construction economy.


Many do begrudge those that feel they are entitled.




> Anywhere a license is required, piecework is illegal.


Absolute BS, no truth to that at all.





> In fact, any "pieceworker" claiming to be self-employed automatically becomes an employee if more than 50% of his income is derived from one source.


Provide a source for that.



> Of course, if we reclassify employees as pieceworkers then you cannot use them as a comparison here, as they become contractors themselves and lose employee status.


More BS


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Large corporations like GM often claim they've lost millions... but their logic is based on income projection goals unmet. (Meaning, we thought this line of vehicles would sell like hotcakes, but it didn't, so we didn't make the 400 million dollar goal, we only made the 300 million dollar mark, therefore, we "lost" 100 million dollars.)


You can't claim a loss, based on projections.

If I project 1 million in sales, and only reach 800,000, I can't tell the IRS I lost 200,000 for the year.


----------



## oldman

since it's a Sunday morning......



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I doubt the people of this country would begrudge a union worker making a middle class salary, benefits, and pension who is also subject to layoffs and the cylical construction economy. At least, wouldn't have the same distain as for corporate heads.


people have disdain for those who feel entitled...period...when the California school system spends $3.5 mil to 'attempt' to fire 7 teachers...people have disdain for the union that 'protects' them



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you believe the above is the case?


I firmly believe that many think they should



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Anywhere a license is required, piecework is illegal. In fact, any "pieceworker" claiming to be self-employed automatically becomes an employee if more than 50% of his income is derived from one source.
> 
> Of course, if we reclassify employees as pieceworkers then you cannot use them as a comparison here, as they become contractors themselves and lose employee status.


how could you be any more wrong? This can be done 100% legally in every state of the nation. There are rules and guidelines to follow, but it can be done legally. Just because someone gets paid commission, or by the piece, doesn't automatically make them a 'sub-contractor'...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, as a boss you could become a one man shop, but then you've really made yourself the employee of whomever awards you a job. Any of the work you could no longer take on would be up for grabs.


unless you join up with other '1 man shops' who don't believe that they should be bullied by employees...then suddenly, you can take on the world...

but aside from that, reduce the pool of employers willing to take on employees, and you severely cut the legs out from underneath unions and labor...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There's got to be more to it, as no contractor would take on a 4-year tunnel project without provisions for delays not in their control. It's possible a timely completion bonus was lost, but that's not the same as losing millions, it's simply the loss of a bonus.
> 
> Large corporations like GM often claim they've lost millions... but their logic is based on income projection goals unmet. (Meaning, we thought this line of vehicles would sell like hotcakes, but it didn't, so we didn't make the 400 million dollar goal, we only made the 300 million dollar mark, therefore, we "lost" 100 million dollars.)


you live in a perfect world...ask SM Electric how much money they 'lost' at Greystone Hospital...every day contractors (and businesses) go bankrupt...usually because they lost real money...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not really, as you cannot decide how much your parts are going to cost or what you feel like paying for a tool. It costs what it costs. Pay the price and you get the part and then the machine can work.


I agree...with some caveats...Tools and equipment have fixed costs...ask anyone who prices work where there problems stem...it's labor...that's the wild card...save some commodities, tools and material pricing is pretty fixed...additionally, it's negotiable...

I can negotiate pricing for tools and material all day long...and they don't ask me for bonuses simply because they did the job they were paid for...

LGLS, it's very simple to be a proponent for those who feel disenfranchised and unappreciated...simply yell and scream and blame the 'haves'...regardless of how the 'haves' got what they have...simply playing 'robin hood' is easy...but actually doing something on your own, without looking to take from others hard work, isn't so easy...you should try it....


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Many do begrudge those that feel they are entitled.


Well, many people feel a lot of things, if what they feel is negative or based on propoganda or it's just flat out jealousy it's not my cross to bear. 

A lot of people call union workers greedy, entitled, whatever - fine. Darn right I'm greedy, I want to squeeze every last dime out of my employer for every hour I work possible. The more I make the better. That's nothing to be embarassed about. The jealousy part kicks in when we're actually sucessful at it - and yet there are the naysayers who all claim business can't survive in that sort of enviroment, that it "hurts" business... B.S.

No business should be allowed to exist where it's financial success is structured on the financial failure of it's employees. 



> Absolute BS, no truth to that at all.


Piecework is per deim and it's illegal if the worker is not on the licenseholder's payroll. Of course, it can be done legally if the worker is paid a base minimum wage, but then the pieceworker is also an employee, meaning the wqorker's comp kicks in and that is of course the whole point to a contractor having piece rates to begin with. 



> Provide a source for that.


Internal revenue service.



> More BS


C'mon Bob - they're either employees or they're not.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> You can't claim a loss, based on projections.
> 
> If I project 1 million in sales, and only reach 800,000, I can't tell the IRS I lost 200,000 for the year.


No, but you can tell your employees you lost $200,000.00 on that last job, or you can hold a press conference and tell the world you lost $200,000.00.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A lot of people call union workers greedy, entitled, whatever - fine. Darn right I'm greedy, I want to squeeze every last dime out of my employer for every hour I work possible. The more I make the better. That's nothing to be embarassed about. The jealousy part kicks in when we're actually sucessful at it - and yet there are the naysayers who all claim business can't survive in that sort of enviroment, that it "hurts" business... B.S.


 
And therein lies the problem.

Instead of working with the contractor, so you both make more money, you would rather screw the contractor and squeeze everything out of them, for your own benifit only.

Now you know why you have a bad rap, and why it needs fixin.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, but you can tell your employees you lost $200,000.00 on that last job, or you can hold a press conference and tell the world you lost $200,000.00.


Again, no.

Not making money, and losing money are two differnet things.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No business should be allowed to exist where it's financial success is structured on the financial failure of it's employees.


if that's the case, every employee should be paid commission or piecework...since the very system of fixed bids and hourly pay rates pits the contractor and employee at odds with eachother....



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Piecework is per deim and it's illegal if the worker is not on the licenseholder's payroll. Of course, it can be done legally if the worker is paid a base minimum wage, but then the pieceworker is also an employee, meaning the wqorker's comp kicks in and that is of course the whole point to a contractor having piece rates to begin with.


no, actually, the whole point is to limit risk...workers comp, health insurance, etc are fixed, known costs...it's the labor productivity that is unknown...

if i have an employee on commission, I know that for every $1000 he generates, my labor costs will be $350....if he's hourly, my labor costs may be $250 or they may be $650 for the same $1000....

yes, I can fire the guy if he costs me $650...but, he's already cost me money...if my profit is 10%, I now need to generate an additional $3000 of revenue just to make up the $300 lost in labor...not even including the $300 profit we just lost on the additional $3000...

long story short...as a contractor, my goal is to limit risk....we always have risk, but unchecked, I'd be better off going to AC or Vegas...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well, many people feel a lot of things, if what they feel is negative or based on propoganda or it's just flat out jealousy it's not my cross to bear.


Its your cross to bear if you really are intrested in the good of the union,



> A lot of people call union workers greedy, entitled, whatever - fine. Darn right I'm greedy, I want to squeeze every last dime out of my employer for every hour I work possible. The more I make the better. That's nothing to be embarassed about.


The part you should be emabarassed about is the fact you do not give a damn if the company survives or not, all you care about it you.




> The jealousy part kicks in when we're actually sucessful at it - and yet there are the naysayers who all claim business can't survive in that sort of enviroment, that it "hurts" business... B.S.


High prices hurt all of us.



> No business should be allowed to exist where it's financial success is structured on the financial failure of it's employees.


Of course it should be allowed, it's up to the employees to decide to work for that company or not.




> Piecework is per deim and it's illegal if the worker is not on the licenseholder's payroll. Of course, it can be done legally if the worker is paid a base minimum wage, but then the pieceworker is also an employee, meaning the wqorker's comp kicks in and that is of course the whole point to a contractor having piece rates to begin with.


Again you are wrong, many flat rate ECs pay a small base wage and pay commissions or bonus or by the peice.

It is successful and legal.




> Internal revenue service.


Either show it to us or it does not exist.





> C'mon Bob - they're either employees or they're not.


They are employees, you are the only one claiming they are not.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> since it's a Sunday morning......
> 
> 
> 
> people have disdain for those who feel entitled...period...when the California school system spends $3.5 mil to 'attempt' to fire 7 teachers...people have disdain for the union that 'protects' them


Well their distain is misdirected - it is the California school system that agreed to the provisions in the contract that THEY signed that keeps the process, and teachers in place. Their union is only doing it's job - protecting it's members. Now maybe if the school system did things PROPERLY and EFFICIENLY it would have properly documented these teachers transgressions and been able to fire them properly.

I don't like that O.J. Simpson got off scott free, but don't blame Johnny Cochran or the "dream team" for defending him - they did their jobs, the prosecution didn't do their's. 



> how could you be any more wrong? This can be done 100% legally in every state of the nation. There are rules and guidelines to follow, but it can be done legally. Just because someone gets paid commission, or by the piece, doesn't automatically make them a 'sub-contractor'...


And when you take into account all of the rules and guidelines from the IRS and the labor department, and throw in the provisions of skilled trade licensing you will find that a licensed contractor cannot have pieceworkers (unlicensed as individuals) working under his license on a piecework basis. 

We had a local fencing contractor who picked up day labor, brought them to the worksite, supplied all the material, handed them the tools and laid out the work, and classified them all as independant contractors. After a summer of this and 2 major injuries called this practice to the DA's and labor department's attention, they got bagged - you cannot misclassify employees as independants or pieceworkers to skirt labor, worker's comp and tax laws unless those workers meet certian standards set by those laws. 



> unless you join up with other '1 man shops' who don't believe that they should be bullied by employees...then suddenly, you can take on the world...
> 
> but aside from that, reduce the pool of employers willing to take on employees, and you severely cut the legs out from underneath unions and labor...


Have you? In this senerio the labor didn't disappear - the work is still there and someone has to do it. Now you've created a co-op trade group where a bunch of 1-man shops take on a large job and I can assure you - the "boss" won't be making 20% while his partners settle for what the boss tells them to settle for, since there is no "boss." You're all going to share the risk, and the rewards equally. 



> you live in a perfect world...ask SM Electric how much money they 'lost' at Greystone Hospital...every day contractors (and businesses) go bankrupt...usually because they lost real money...


And your point is what? It's the employees fault? 



> I agree...with some caveats...Tools and equipment have fixed costs...ask anyone who prices work where there problems stem...it's labor...that's the wild card...save some commodities, tools and material pricing is pretty fixed...additionally, it's negotiable...


EXACTLY! It's negotiable... to a certian point. There is a MINIMUM you can get things for, and that is exactly where all the bad blood comes in between union and merit - in that you don't get to decide what that minimum is all by yourself - we must get together and negotiate for where that minimum will be set. SO the merits know they're minimum is lower and there you go - immediately union workers are "overpaid" simply because they set their bar lower. 

Tell me your job (including bidding, personnel management) wouldn't be worlds easier if every single contractor had to pay a journeyman's minimum wage that was equal across the board, and had to adhere to strict ratio rules that don't flood the trade with hordes of poorly trained 1/2 baked journeymen with no jobs available for 1/2 of them? 

Now you say the "wild card" being labor, or is it? 10 of our contractors can bid the same job and come up with prices millions apart, and yet labor isn't a wild card here so, is labor really the wild card, or is the bidding process rife with guesses and assumptions and unknowns that some contractors are good at and others well, aren't so good at?



> I can negotiate pricing for tools and material all day long...and they don't ask me for bonuses simply because they did the job they were paid for...


But you can't spend all day, every day in negotiations. Time is money, you don't spend a dollar to save a dime.



> LGLS, it's very simple to be a proponent for those who feel disenfranchised and unappreciated...simply yell and scream and blame the 'haves'...regardless of how the 'haves' got what they have...simply playing 'robin hood' is easy...but actually doing something on your own, without looking to take from others hard work, isn't so easy...you should try it....


Sorry Oldman, not gonna settle for the scraps your ilk decides to toss out.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> And therein lies the problem.
> 
> Instead of working with the contractor, so you both make more money,


This is EXACTLY what we do. The rest of your statement is nothing more than anti-union propoganda. In our enviroment, a contractor can't simply say THIS is what I'm offering, he has to BACK IT UP. Open the books - show us you didn't make a dime on that last job IF you want to make that a valid negotiating claim.

Funny how they never want to open those books, so, they never claim they're losing money...



> you would rather screw the contractor and squeeze everything out of them, for your own benifit only.


Balance that against every contractor would otherwise screw the workers and squeeze everything out of us, for their benifit only...



> Now you know why you have a bad rap, and why it needs fixin.


 [/quote]

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> if that's the case, every employee should be paid commission or piecework...since the very system of fixed bids and hourly pay rates pits the contractor and employee at odds with each other....


The tug-of-war here isn't the prized pie, it's over the size of the slices. 



> no, actually, the whole point is to limit risk...workers comp, health insurance, etc are fixed, known costs...it's the labor productivity that is unknown...


Not completely. And job productivity and labor productivity are not the same. You could put you 10 best men on a job that is run into the ground having nothing to do with their output or willingness to produce.



> if i have an employee on commission, I know that for every $1000 he generates, my labor costs will be $350....if he's hourly, my labor costs may be $250 or they may be $650 for the same $1000....
> 
> yes, I can fire the guy if he costs me $650...but, he's already cost me money...if my profit is 10%, I now need to generate an additional $3000 of revenue just to make up the $300 lost in labor...not even including the $300 profit we just lost on the additional $3000...


Unrealized income is not a loss. A flat tire costs you money too, but you still cannot then decide to pay less for your next set of Goodyears..



> long story short...as a contractor, my goal is to limit risk....we always have risk, but unchecked, I'd be better off going to AC or Vegas...


But are you limiting risk, or simply wanting to transfer that risk and use employees as your safety net?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Its your cross to bear if you really are intrested in the good of the union,


No it's not. Stooping to a lower level to appease others isn't good for the union. There are plenty of people - the smaller contractors here will tell you, that think ALL tradesmen make too much money. Should everyone lower their standards to meet the least common denominator? This is a race to the bottom. If you can't get your price for a job what does everyone here tell you? Don't take the job! 



> The part you should be emabarassed about is the fact you do not give a damn if the company survives or not, all you care about it you.


Sure I give a damn. Without contractors there is no union. Without electrical workers there are no contractors. We all depend on each other. But if 100 new shops open tomorrow I'm sorry to say their success isn't my responsibility, they will not survive because the market is already saturated. This is an economic reality, forgive me for not crying about the guy who foolishly opens up and figures out his survival is dependant on pushing my income downward... and attempts to do so. 



> High prices hurt all of us.


I thought all you merit shops maintain the ratios and pay even more than scale? Higher wages help all of us, and, everything is relative.



> Of course it should be allowed, it's up to the employees to decide to work for that company or not.


But it's also up to the employees to decide to organize or not. 



> Again you are wrong, many flat rate ECs pay a small base wage and pay commissions or bonus or by the peice.
> 
> It is successful and legal.


As long as that small base wage is there, making them employees. 



> Either show it to us or it does not exist.


Would you like a link to the IRS? Or the labor department? If the pieceworker on commission is also paid a wage then there is no argument here. But you know as well as I, the practice started when contractors wanted to NOT have employees and issued 1099's, illegally. 



> They are employees, you are the only one claiming they are not.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Funny how they never want to open those books, so, they never claim they're losing money...


Should the IBEW open it's books to contractors, so we know where ALL the money goes, where it goes too, and how it is spent?



> Balance that against every contractor would otherwise screw the workers and squeeze everything out of us, for their benifit only...


BS. Employees cost money to train and retain.

We realize it is impossible for you to see both sides of the coin.
Your only experience is as an employee, and you get your information from a source whose only goal, is to misinform you, for their benifit only.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well their distain is misdirected - it is the California school system that agreed to the provisions in the contract that THEY signed that keeps the process, and teachers in place. Their union is only doing it's job - protecting it's members. Now maybe if the school system did things PROPERLY and EFFICIENLY it would have properly documented these teachers transgressions and been able to fire them properly.
> 
> I don't like that O.J. Simpson got off scott free, but don't blame Johnny Cochran or the "dream team" for defending him - they did their jobs, the prosecution didn't do their's.


common sense has been lost, and you are proud of it....




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And when you take into account all of the rules and guidelines from the IRS and the labor department, and throw in the provisions of skilled trade licensing you will find that a licensed contractor cannot have pieceworkers (unlicensed as individuals) working under his license on a piecework basis.
> 
> We had a local fencing contractor who picked up day labor, brought them to the worksite, supplied all the material, handed them the tools and laid out the work, and classified them all as independant contractors. After a summer of this and 2 major injuries called this practice to the DA's and labor department's attention, they got bagged - you cannot misclassify employees as independants or pieceworkers to skirt labor, worker's comp and tax laws unless those workers meet certian standards set by those laws.


do not, i repeat, do not, attempt to equate your misinformation with reality....you can not compare a legal contractor, paying employees based on performance, with a guy pulling day labor and paying as sub-contractors...





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Have you? In this senerio the labor didn't disappear - the work is still there and someone has to do it. Now you've created a co-op trade group where a bunch of 1-man shops take on a large job and I can assure you - the "boss" won't be making 20% while his partners settle for what the boss tells them to settle for, since there is no "boss." You're all going to share the risk, and the rewards equally.


the key sentence above is 'you're all going to share the risk, and the rewards equally'.....not inequitably like you rally for...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And your point is what? It's the employees fault?


to paraphrase Joe Biden...'you are either misinformed or misleading'....point was that everyday, real contractors lose real money...hence they either have to sell to someone with deeper pockets or go out of business...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> EXACTLY! It's negotiable... to a certian point. There is a MINIMUM you can get things for, and that is exactly where all the bad blood comes in between union and merit - in that you don't get to decide what that minimum is all by yourself - we must get together and negotiate for where that minimum will be set. SO the merits know they're minimum is lower and there you go - immediately union workers are "overpaid" simply because they set their bar lower.


since I'm the one paying the bill, I think I should have a pretty big say in how much I choose to pay...if material or tools cost too much, I can make the decision to buy something different, or nothing at all...Unions don't want me to have the choice to hire different labor that fits my needs better...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Tell me your job (including bidding, personnel management) wouldn't be worlds easier if every single contractor had to pay a journeyman's minimum wage that was equal across the board, and had to adhere to strict ratio rules that don't flood the trade with hordes of poorly trained 1/2 baked journeymen with no jobs available for 1/2 of them?


i've actually said for years that it would be easier...because at least then, i'm competing against the same level of competence on the same playing field...however, we decided years ago that communism wasn't the way to go...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Now you say the "wild card" being labor, or is it? 10 of our contractors can bid the same job and come up with prices millions apart, and yet labor isn't a wild card here so, is labor really the wild card, or is the bidding process rife with guesses and assumptions and unknowns that some contractors are good at and others well, aren't so good at?


because if i'm performing a job with shop guys who look out for the company, i can do it a lot more efficiently than hall guys, run by a hall foreman, who simply don't want to work themselves out of a job....maybe, i have an in with the local and they'll let me use more summer help...maybe this was before Brian got caught and I slipped him a few bucks...i don't know...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But you can't spend all day, every day in negotiations. Time is money, you don't spend a dollar to save a dime.


nope, but I'd be dumb to spend a $100, when a 2 min phone call would save me $50....



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sorry Oldman, not gonna settle for the scraps your ilk decides to toss out.


not what I said...I said go make your own way...kill your own water buffalo and stop trying to take the one that I killed...fend for yourself...


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The tug-of-war here isn't the prized pie, it's over the size of the slices.


the problem is that there is only so much of the pie available to any particular cost...so if labor goes up, something else has to go down...guess we could stop paying insurance and or the supply house...or, we could do away with all profit (as you promote) and just take inordinate risk for wages...yeah, that's it...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not completely. And job productivity and labor productivity are not the same. You could put you 10 best men on a job that is run into the ground having nothing to do with their output or willingness to produce.


it goes both ways...one of the issues with the IBEW, they don't want the owner to actively manage projects...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Unrealized income is not a loss. A flat tire costs you money too, but you still cannot then decide to pay less for your next set of Goodyears..


for someone with so many answers, you got a lot of wrong ones...

it's not unrealized income, i'm still getting the same $1000, it's just costing me $300 more than it should...money that gets taken from the pie...I now need to make up that $300 to cover the expenses it was earmarked for..meaning it comes out of future profit...and to earn $300 in profit (at 10%) i need to generate an additional $3000 in income...all realized and all accounted for...simply because 1 guy was incompetent...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But are you limiting risk, or simply wanting to transfer that risk and use employees as your safety net?


depends...if you want to share in the reward, you need to share in the risk...


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> As long as that small base wage is there, making them employees.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like a link to the IRS? Or the labor department? If the pieceworker on commission is also paid a wage then there is no argument here. But you know as well as I, the practice started when contractors wanted to NOT have employees and issued 1099's, illegally.


again....100% misinformed


----------



## william1978

I have been watching this thread and thinking of the original question " How can the IBEW change is's damaged reputation?" The first the the IBEW needs to do is get rid of LawnGuyLandSparky as a spokes person for them.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Should the IBEW open it's books to contractors, so we know where ALL the money goes, where it goes too, and how it is spent?


Yes, and it does. You really don't know a thing about unions do you? How long were you in, 2 weeks?

Every dime taken in and spent is accounted for, and the labor departments perform annual audits. Even our business managers, business agents and everyone else down to the handyman's salaries are published, including their perks such as take-home cars.



> BS. Employees cost money to train and retain.


Where did that money come from, do the contractors have a money tree?



> We realize it is impossible for you to see both sides of the coin.
> Your only experience is as an employee, and you get your information from a source whose only goal, is to misinform you, for their benifit only.


Yea right... you stick to your guns and I'll stick to mine.
Your only source is what?


----------



## oldman

william1978 said:


> I have been watching this thread and thinking of the original question " How can the IBEW change is's damaged reputation?" The first the the IBEW needs to do is get rid of LawnGuyLandSparky as a spokes person for them.


c'mon...where else can you get hours of free entertainment like this? hell, Andrew Dice Clay still charges tens of dollars to see his schtick...and LGLS is better than ADC...

:laughing:


----------



## william1978

oldman said:


> c'mon...where else can you get hours of free entertainment like this? hell, Andrew Dice Clay still charges tens of dollars to see his schtick...and LGLS is better than ADC...
> 
> :laughing:


 :laughing: You know what Oldman your right.:thumbup:


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No it's not. Stooping to a lower level to appease others isn't good for the union. There are plenty of people - the smaller contractors here will tell you, that think ALL tradesmen make too much money. Should everyone lower their standards to meet the least common denominator? This is a race to the bottom. If you can't get your price for a job what does everyone here tell you? Don't take the job!


You are seriously rambling OT here.





> Sure I give a damn.


Well I could find a 100 posts where you say you don't, you even said so in this post.




> I thought all you merit shops maintain the ratios and pay even more than scale?


I have never said we pay more than scale, you are just making things up.

We do maintain the state required ratios.




> Higher wages help all of us, and, everything is relative.


No, higher wages do not 'help all us us' those higher wages come out of all our collective pockets. The dollars do not just appear out of thin air.




> Would you like a link to the IRS? Or the labor department?


YES, I want you to post the rule or law that you claimed existed.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Yes, and it does. You really don't know a thing about unions do you? How long were you in, 2 weeks?
> 
> Every dime taken in and spent is accounted for, and the labor departments perform annual audits. Even our business managers, business agents and everyone else down to the handyman's salaries are published, including their perks such as take-home cars.


So under what category is pay-outs to politicians?

Pay backs to the Mafia?



> Where did that money come from, do the contractors have a money tree?


No, most of them either plan ahead, mortage thier homes, borrow the money from banks if they can find the funding.




> Yea right... you stick to your guns and I'll stick to mine.
> Your only source is what?


Ex-teamster
Ex-steelworker

and Small business owner for 10 yrs.

You?


----------



## 10492

william1978 said:


> I have been watching this thread and thinking of the original question " How can the IBEW change is's damaged reputation?" The first the the IBEW needs to do is get rid of LawnGuyLandSparky as a spokes person for them.


Someone in the IBEW is teaching him. 

I doubt he could ever make something of himself out here in the real world unless he is willing to remove his tin foil hat and blinders.

He needs the Union, and the Union needs him.

Both are on the same sinking ship, and can't feel the water at their feet just yet.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> common sense has been lost, and you are proud of it....


No I'm not proud of it. NYC schools also have a "rubber room" with paid teachers deemed unfit to be near students. Every 3 years the teachers union and the city agree on a contract - there's no reason to have a contract that spells out exactly what the responsibilities of teachers are and what process needs to be fopllowed to terminate a teacher, both parties agree to it and then both parties must follow it. Otherwise, why have any agreement or contract at all?

Or... is that your point? That employees shouldn't be allowed to have contracts?



> do not, i repeat, do not, attempt to equate your misinformation with reality....you can not compare a legal contractor, paying employees based on performance, with a guy pulling day labor and paying as sub-contractors...


I can if those workers are 1099's. 



> the key sentence above is 'you're all going to share the risk, and the rewards equally'.....not inequitably like you rally for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to paraphrase Joe Biden...'you are either misinformed or misleading'....point was that everyday, real contractors lose real money...hence they either have to sell to someone with deeper pockets or go out of business...


But this isn't the employees fault. 



> since I'm the one paying the bill, I think I should have a pretty big say in how much I choose to pay...


Good. Since I'm the one doing the work, and they're MY skills your selling, I think It's best to stand side by side with everyone else in my position, collectively hire a negotiating dream team, and get the best deal we possibly can. 

Of course, this isn't going to result in your being able to take advantage of me or anyone else, and I think a lot of the resistance kicks in when bosses don't have the upper hand with people they feel they should have the upper hand with. 



> if material or tools cost too much, I can make the decision to buy something different, or nothing at all...


No you can't, if material or tools cost too much you don't have the money, and that would be your fault. You certianly can't make the decision to not use materials or tools and get the job done and still make money.



> Unions don't want me to have the choice to hire different labor that fits my needs better...


An electrical contractor needs what kind of "different" labor? Apprentices, journeymen, foremen, and at a certian point, a shop super. Then there's expeditors, warehousemen, estimators, project managers... what's so different or unique about your needs?




> i've actually said for years that it would be easier...because at least then, i'm competing against the same level of competence on the same playing field...however, we decided years ago that communism wasn't the way to go...


Sure, corporate dictatorships are the only true solution... 



> because if i'm performing a job with shop guys who look out for the company, i can do it a lot more efficiently than hall guys, run by a hall foreman, who simply don't want to work themselves out of a job.


If you're doing the job with "shop guys" that's code for shoprocket suck-ups who work harder and faster and produce more for their own continued employment. The "efficiency" you speak of is created because they're output is not compesated for proportunately. You pocket the difference. In short - they put out 50% more work but only get a small bonus or a couple of bucks overscale. If their total thoroughput was adequately compensated for, there's no increase in efficiency when you're paying a man and a half for all of his extra output.

What's probably happening is you got some exceptional guys, and anyone (hall trash) who isn't as good as them is viewed as not worth the scale. 



> ...maybe, i have an in with the local and they'll let me use more summer help...maybe this was before Brian got caught and I slipped him a few bucks...i don't know...


Maybe... one shop just wants higher profit margians and won't do a job unless it meets that goal. Maybe another shop is perfectly content with 6%, more efficiently manages it's labor, or has a better project manager who makes fewer mistakes. 



> not what I said...I said go make your own way...kill your own water buffalo and stop trying to take the one that I killed...fend for yourself...


But Water Buffalos aren't hunted, killed and consumed by you alone. You need me... I'd fend for myself if that was the most effective way of getting the most out of my labor and time. But it isn't, I'm a better electrician and a better foreman than I am a negotiator. It's much more cost effective to just pay 1% of my gross to a professional trade representation group. 

Much in the same way that a contractor might sub out part of the job that requires a unique specialty.


----------



## oldman

this is great...keep them coming...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No I'm not proud of it. NYC schools also have a "rubber room" with paid teachers deemed unfit to be near students. Every 3 years the teachers union and the city agree on a contract - there's no reason to have a contract that spells out exactly what the responsibilities of teachers are and what process needs to be fopllowed to terminate a teacher, both parties agree to it and then both parties must follow it. Otherwise, why have any agreement or contract at all?
> 
> Or... is that your point? That employees shouldn't be allowed to have contracts?


you point to contracts that are created by the blind and agreed to by the deaf...contracts are great, I use them everyday...but like the old saying goes "garbage in, garbage out"......



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I can if those workers are 1099's.


except...back to the misinformed or misleading thing...no one else is talking about 1099's...only you...what do you figure, lie and obfuscate enough and suddenly you'll be right?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But this isn't the employees fault.


ever? get a grip



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Good. Since I'm the one doing the work, and they're MY skills your selling, I think It's best to stand side by side with everyone else in my position, collectively hire a negotiating dream team, and get the best deal we possibly can.
> 
> Of course, this isn't going to result in your being able to take advantage of me or anyone else, and I think a lot of the resistance kicks in when bosses don't have the upper hand with people they feel they should have the upper hand with.


i agree with you're right to do that...I don't agree with you and your coalition forcing me, through suspect means, to agree to your demands...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No you can't, if material or tools cost too much you don't have the money, and that would be your fault. You certianly can't make the decision to not use materials or tools and get the job done and still make money.


sure I can...I can purchase a different brand or engineer a different solution...i'm not stuck with a 1 size fits all...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> An electrical contractor needs what kind of "different" labor? Apprentices, journeymen, foremen, and at a certian point, a shop super. Then there's expeditors, warehousemen, estimators, project managers... what's so different or unique about your needs?


maybe I don't need a $100/hr j-man to change lamps....




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sure, corporate dictatorships are the only true solution...


barking up the wrong tree...you seem to conveniently ignore that the majority of contractors are far from corporate dictatorships...except in NYC because the market has become some f'd up that even mom&pop shops have to do $10mil/yr to survive...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If you're doing the job with "shop guys" that's code for shoprocket suck-ups who work harder and faster and produce more for their own continued employment. The "efficiency" you speak of is created because they're output is not compesated for proportunately. You pocket the difference. In short - they put out 50% more work but only get a small bonus or a couple of bucks overscale. If their total thoroughput was adequately compensated for, there's no increase in efficiency when you're paying a man and a half for all of his extra output.
> 
> What's probably happening is you got some exceptional guys, and anyone (hall trash) who isn't as good as them is viewed as not worth the scale.


i prefer to not scale the entire country to the lowest common denominator...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Maybe... one shop just wants higher profit margians and won't do a job unless it meets that goal. Maybe another shop is perfectly content with 6%, more efficiently manages it's labor, or has a better project manager who makes fewer mistakes.


 and your point is? that the free market is ok when it proves something you consider a point?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But Water Buffalos aren't hunted, killed and consumed by you alone. You need me... I'd fend for myself if that was the most effective way of getting the most out of my labor and time. But it isn't, I'm a better electrician and a better foreman than I am a negotiator. It's much more cost effective to just pay 1% of my gross to a professional trade representation group.
> 
> Much in the same way that a contractor might sub out part of the job that requires a unique specialty.


again, what's your point? if you hunt with me, and we take down some prey...i'll share everything...but when you sit in the bushes, wait till we (me and those that work with me) take the prey down, then you jump out and feel entitled to some of it...well, bugger off...


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> the problem is that there is only so much of the pie available to any particular cost...so if labor goes up, something else has to go down...guess we could stop paying insurance and or the supply house...or, we could do away with all profit (as you promote) and just take inordinate risk for wages...yeah, that's it...


During the boom the cost of sheetrock tripled. SO did copper. So, I'm to take a wage cut because sheetrock got more expensive? No. Yet, if labor costs go up you're saying something else that's vital or necessary to business has to be cut? You're really grasping at straws there... 



> it goes both ways...one of the issues with the IBEW, they don't want the owner to actively manage projects...


The job of foreman is an electrician's. You cannot be owner and foreman. There are caveats based on project size, bid price, number employed, etc...

What I see you doing oldman is just grasping and clawing and pining to take the standards in place and cheat them to your own benifit. IOW, you want others to suffer someway or somehow towards your success. Take the minimum standards everyone else is following and lessen them, cheat them, lower them.

Apparently you're having difficulties competing on everyone else's level. Maybe contracting isn't your bag... Or maybe you're doing fantastic but you're greedy for more? 



> for someone with so many answers, you got a lot of wrong ones...
> 
> it's not unrealized income, i'm still getting the same $1000, it's just costing me $300 more than it should...money that gets taken from the pie...I now need to make up that $300 to cover the expenses it was earmarked for..meaning it comes out of future profit...and to earn $300 in profit (at 10%) i need to generate an additional $3000 in income...all realized and all accounted for...simply because 1 guy was incompetent...


How do you intend to "make up" for the loss created by an incompetant employee? If you could get "another 3000 worth of work to make up for the loss" it's still a loss as you could have gotten that extra 3000.00 worth of work and done that too even if there had been no incomeptant employee. 



> depends...if you want to share in the reward, you need to share in the risk...


No I don't need to do that at all, that's your point isn't it? I get rewarded for my labor and my time and my efforts without taking those risks. You figure out how to achieve your goals and leave me out of it, just don't ask me to lower my standards to ensure your success.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> c'mon...where else can you get hours of free entertainment like this? hell, Andrew Dice Clay still charges tens of dollars to see his schtick...and LGLS is better than ADC...
> 
> :laughing:


Hey, we all loved ADC. In fact, I remember when he was popular, everybody was quoting him, and nobody was getting laid.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> During the boom the cost of sheetrock tripled. SO did copper. So, I'm to take a wage cut because sheetrock got more expensive? No. Yet, if labor costs go up you're saying something else that's vital or necessary to business has to be cut? You're really grasping at straws there...


any idea how many contractors ate that cost? a lot...it happens..and yes, if labor goes up, something else must go down...I wish that I could just raise the selling price of a project because my labor costs have gone up...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The job of foreman is an electrician's. You cannot be owner and foreman. There are caveats based on project size, bid price, number employed, etc...


see, the problem is...the IBEW wants to keep me from choosing which electrician is the foreman on my project...try using portability into local 456 and see what happens...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What I see you doing oldman is just grasping and clawing and pining to take the standards in place and cheat them to your own benifit. IOW, you want others to suffer someway or somehow towards your success. Take the minimum standards everyone else is following and lessen them, cheat them, lower them.


huh? who's standards? cheat? you are really out there...I'm simply disputing your warped view of reality...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Apparently you're having difficulties competing on everyone else's level. Maybe contracting isn't your bag... Or maybe you're doing fantastic but you're greedy for more?


yes to both...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> How do you intend to "make up" for the loss created by an incompetant employee? If you could get "another 3000 worth of work to make up for the loss" it's still a loss as you could have gotten that extra 3000.00 worth of work and done that too even if there had been no incomeptant employee.


at the end of the day, it comes out of profit...right off the bottom line..that's how it gets made up...what's so hard to grasp?




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No I don't need to do that at all, that's your point isn't it? I get rewarded for my labor and my time and my efforts without taking those risks. You figure out how to achieve your goals and leave me out of it, just don't ask me to lower my standards to ensure your success.


see, and I just don't want you to feel entitled to my standards because you are too lazy, incompetent, incapable, etc, etc, etc to fend for yourself...I'm not asking you to lower your standards...I'm just saying that to me, you aren't worth what you think you are...now, before you run off half-cocked, this is a general statement to illustrate my point...just because someone asks $500k for a house, doesn't mean it's worth $500k...just because you ask for $100/hr for your labor, doesn't mean it's worth $100/hr...if it is to someone, and they'll pay you that rate, goody for you...


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> this is great...keep them coming...
> 
> 
> 
> you point to contracts that are created by the blind and agreed to by the deaf...contracts are great, I use them everyday...but like the old saying goes "garbage in, garbage out"......


No those are your opinions, not facts. School districts fire teachers all the time - you only hear about these cases when they become news. Why not ask the school administrators why they didn't follow the proper procedures? They're the ones who dropped the ball on this one.



> except...back to the misinformed or misleading thing...no one else is talking about 1099's...only you...what do you figure, lie and obfuscate enough and suddenly you'll be right?


Not at all, when the subject came up I thought the reference was to 1099'd pieceworkers.



> ever? get a grip


Well I've never seen it happen. There are any number of reasons why a company fails. Poor management usually tops the list. 



> i agree with you're right to do that...I don't agree with you and your coalition forcing me, through suspect means, to agree to your demands...


Through suspect means, man that is rich! Colorful!!! Tugs at my heartstrings...

Got any meat? You know... like a bonified crime? Not emotional rantings or conjecture? Nobody is holding a gun to your head and telling you you have to be a contractor and you have to do it our way or the highway. We're excersizing our legal and constitutional right to bargian collectively, and you have every right to choose to not become one if you don't like that you have to follow U.S. labor laws when you become an employer. 

Of course, that doesn't mean you have to like it and can't come on a forum and bitch about it endlessly.

There are a select few who aren't satisfied with just being an employee, they want more... much more and to do it requires a lot more effort and time. The rewards can be great... but keep in mind in order to accomplish a higher ultimate goal you're going to need to use employees... what I do prevents that USE from becoming ABUSE. Because that higher goal is more easily attainable when abuses are left unchecked by a force that is capable of leveling the playing field. 



> sure I can...I can purchase a different brand or engineer a different solution...i'm not stuck with a 1 size fits all...


But in the end you are FORCED to CHOOSE and PAY for something. I make sure that SOMETHING meets a minimum standard in wages and conditions. 



> maybe I don't need a $100/hr j-man to change lamps....


If you have a lamp changing contract who are you going to use? Your secretary?



> barking up the wrong tree...you seem to conveniently ignore that the majority of contractors are far from corporate dictatorships...except in NYC because the market has become some f'd up that even mom&pop shops have to do $10mil/yr to survive...


You havent incorporated?
You don't want complete power and control over everything from who you hire to how much you'll pay?



> i prefer to not scale the entire country to the lowest common denominator...


No you prefer to take the best most productive guy you have and peg scale to that one man, and begin negatively measuring everyone else from that point down. 


> and your point is? that the free market is ok when it proves something you consider a point?


No it shows different shops can make different profit margians and labor is but one component. Should a shop fail, you can't automatically blame labor.



> again, what's your point? if you hunt with me, and we take down some prey...i'll share everything...but when you sit in the bushes, wait till we (me and those that work with me) take the prey down, then you jump out and feel entitled to some of it...well, bugger off...


But if the buffalo was the job, I'd be there for the kill and participate in it.


----------



## wildleg

the notion that lawnguy has anything on the diceman is absolutely friggin whack.


----------



## Bob Badger

william1978 said:


> The first the the IBEW needs to do is get rid of LawnGuyLandSparky as a spokes person for them.



:thumbsup:


----------



## oldman

wildleg said:


> the notion that lawnguy has anything on the diceman is absolutely friggin whack.


alright...how about Carrot Top? better?:whistling2:


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No those are your opinions, not facts. School districts fire teachers all the time - you only hear about these cases when they become news. Why not ask the school administrators why they didn't follow the proper procedures? They're the ones who dropped the ball on this one.


i'm saying some contracts are archaic and are continued simply out of ignorance/greed/stupidity...take your pick...

tenure? c'mon...in many cases, the abused (that these contracts were designed to protect) have become the abusers...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not at all, when the subject came up I thought the reference was to 1099'd pieceworkers.


yet, you keep up the charade after having the difference explained to you numerous times...c'mon...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well I've never seen it happen. There are any number of reasons why a company fails. Poor management usually tops the list.


no disagreement.....been arguing that for years...i just don't believe in absolving incompetent labor...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Through suspect means, man that is rich! Colorful!!! Tugs at my heartstrings...
> 
> Got any meat? You know... like a bonified crime? Not emotional rantings or conjecture? Nobody is holding a gun to your head and telling you you have to be a contractor and you have to do it our way or the highway. We're excersizing our legal and constitutional right to bargian collectively, and you have every right to choose to not become one if you don't like that you have to follow U.S. labor laws when you become an employer.


you're right...it's never happened...and it'll never happen in the future...:laughing:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Of course, that doesn't mean you have to like it and can't come on a forum and bitch about it endlessly.


and that's the beauty of America



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There are a select few who aren't satisfied with just being an employee, they want more... much more and to do it requires a lot more effort and time. The rewards can be great... but keep in mind in order to accomplish a higher ultimate goal you're going to need to use employees... what I do prevents that USE from becoming ABUSE. Because that higher goal is more easily attainable when abuses are left unchecked by a force that is capable of leveling the playing field.


just because I don't believe that you are worth $100/hr doesn't equate to worker abuse...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But in the end you are FORCED to CHOOSE and PAY for something. I make sure that SOMETHING meets a minimum standard in wages and conditions.


who's minimum? should I be forced to by a $100 tool when a $10 tool will serve my needs just as well?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If you have a lamp changing contract who are you going to use? Your secretary?


c'mon...i'd tell you not to be ignorant, but I don't feel like writing up a contract for it...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You havent incorporated?
> You don't want complete power and control over everything from who you hire to how much you'll pay?


see above....



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No you prefer to take the best most productive guy you have and peg scale to that one man, and begin negatively measuring everyone else from that point down.


and what's wrong with striving to be the best? this country was built by people striving to be the best...I don't feel that we should worship mediocrity...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No it shows different shops can make different profit margians and labor is but one component. Should a shop fail, you can't automatically blame labor.


i don't believe i did...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But if the buffalo was the job, I'd be there for the kill and participate in it.


nah, you are waiting for me to get up, go track the buffalo, kill it....then you pop up and say "hey, where's my share"....


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> any idea how many contractors ate that cost? a lot...it happens..and yes, if labor goes up, something else must go down...I wish that I could just raise the selling price of a project because my labor costs have gone up...


Who ate what cost? Materials + Labor + overhead + profit = bid. If contractors "eat" the higher cost of anything shame on them. Bad businessmen. Only thing worse is you seem to expect that the end price of a job is a static thing, and the cost of materials, overhead and profit should be considered first with labor acting as the buffer against a static bid result.

My stance is GFY. My labor is not negotiable. So now the only buffer is profit, considering that you can only cut overhead and materials to a certian degree. And that's exactly as it should be. 



> see, the problem is...the IBEW wants to keep me from choosing which electrician is the foreman on my project...try using portability into local 456 and see what happens...


Explain this? I need details.



> huh? who's standards? cheat? you are really out there...I'm simply disputing your warped view of reality...


I'm disputing your warped business tactics.



> yes to both...


At least you have a sense of humor.



> at the end of the day, it comes out of profit...right off the bottom line..that's how it gets made up...what's so hard to grasp?


The concept isn't, but your rationale is... skewwed. Sorry you have to deal with a wild card - the human element in your business. But that's life Oldman. Even if you paid that loss leader less, he could STILL F-up and you could still see that loss of profit. 

You can't look at every little negative blip that eats at profits and say it's all the union's fault. If you want to eliminate that risk figure out a way to invent robotic electricians and have no employees. 



> see, and I just don't want you to feel entitled to my standards because you are too lazy, incompetent, incapable, etc, etc, etc to fend for yourself...I'm not asking you to lower your standards...I'm just saying that to me, you aren't worth what you think you are...


Tell you what, if anyone working for you isn't worth what you are "forced" to pay them, then lay them off and get someone else. If you're making money - the employees are if not individually, collectively worth what they're getting. If not you wouldn't be in business. Even if you could bring up other electricians who are willing to work for less to do just as good a job, or even better, does not determine what someone else's worth is.



> now, before you run off half-cocked,


Oops, too late!



> this is a general statement to illustrate my point...just because someone asks $500k for a house, doesn't mean it's worth $500k...just because you ask for $100/hr for your labor, doesn't mean it's worth $100/hr...if it is to someone, and they'll pay you that rate, goody for you...


A guy I work with got a Pontiac GTO for 4 grand. MINT condition! Since then, everybody who bought a vintage musclecar got ripped off, right?

If I'm willing to pay 500k for a house, it's worth it to me. If it isn't I won't pay it. (If I sold my house to myself today I couldn't afford it.) 

Just because someone asks 500K for a house doesn't mean it's worth it, to EVERYBODY. Likewise, when I and 13,000 other people say I will not work for less than prevailing rate and H&W, there is no shortage of contractors willing to accept that. That's not to say that each and every one of them wishes we'd work for less, but that would be true no matter how much or package is. Like my GTO example, EVERYBODY want's a sweeter deal, because like me and like you, EVERYBODY is greedy.


----------



## minibdr

Your pretty good there old. How about a little more. You make me laugh. :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

william1978 said:


> The first the the IBEW needs to do is get rid of LawnGuyLandSparky as a spokes person for them.



:thumbsup:


----------



## oldman

minibdr said:


> Your pretty good there old. How about a little more. You make me laugh. :laughing:


sure...hey, go get a spanish to english translator and look at the phrase under my name...:whistling2:


----------



## minibdr

The reason this contry is in the crapper is the workforce I agree. The uneducated selfish me me mentality rat bastard workforce that you are a member of. My contractor pays a fair days pay for a fair days work, does yours? Tell me what does he pay you? What benifits do you have. Will he be there when you need him for lets say health and welfare? The unions are not on the decline they have declined and we are left with well you. Reread your posts and I hope what you leave behind as your legacy you are content with.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Who ate what cost? Materials + Labor + overhead + profit = bid. If contractors "eat" the higher cost of anything shame on them. Bad businessmen. Only thing worse is you seem to expect that the end price of a job is a static thing, and the cost of materials, overhead and profit should be considered first with labor acting as the buffer against a static bid result.


if life were so simple, forest gump would be a real person....



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> My stance is GFY. My labor is not negotiable. So now the only buffer is profit, considering that you can only cut overhead and materials to a certian degree. And that's exactly as it should be.


yet, when a business owner says that same phrase "GFY" to labor, he's cheating and taking advantage of them? good to know...




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Explain this? I need details.


ask around...not about to go into full details here...anyone from Jersey knows about the BA in 456...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm disputing your warped business tactics.


I wish it was just my warped business tactics...life would be better if it were just me



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> At least you have a sense of humor.


always



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The concept isn't, but your rationale is... skewwed. Sorry you have to deal with a wild card - the human element in your business. But that's life Oldman. Even if you paid that loss leader less, he could STILL F-up and you could still see that loss of profit.
> 
> You can't look at every little negative blip that eats at profits and say it's all the union's fault. If you want to eliminate that risk figure out a way to invent robotic electricians and have no employees.


i'm not...it's the systematic sense of entitlement that I blame on the union




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Tell you what, if anyone working for you isn't worth what you are "forced" to pay them, then lay them off and get someone else. If you're making money - the employees are if not individually, collectively worth what they're getting. If not you wouldn't be in business. Even if you could bring up other electricians who are willing to work for less to do just as good a job, or even better, does not determine what someone else's worth is.
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, too late!


that's sounds exactly like what happens in Merit shops every day...ok, i think you are on to something...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A guy I work with got a Pontiac GTO for 4 grand. MINT condition! Since then, everybody who bought a vintage musclecar got ripped off, right?


what's your point?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If I'm willing to pay 500k for a house, it's worth it to me. If it isn't I won't pay it. (If I sold my house to myself today I couldn't afford it.)
> 
> Just because someone asks 500K for a house doesn't mean it's worth it, to EVERYBODY.


isn't that what I said?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Likewise, when I and 13,000 other people say I will not work for less than prevailing rate and H&W, there is no shortage of contractors willing to accept that.


i'd say right now there is a shortage of contractors willing to accept that...hence 3500 on the bench...



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's not to say that each and every one of them wishes we'd work for less, but that would be true no matter how much or package is. Like my GTO example, EVERYBODY want's a sweeter deal, because like me and like you, EVERYBODY is greedy.


speak for yourself...i just don't want to be forced to support someone else who is too lazy to support themselves...I sent my ex packing for that...


----------



## oldman

minibdr said:


> The reason this contry is in the crapper is the workforce I agree. The uneducated selfish me me mentality rat bastard workforce that you are a member of. My contractor pays a fair days pay for a fair days work, does yours? Tell me what does he pay you? What benifits do you have. Will he be there when you need him for lets say health and welfare? The unions are not on the decline they have declined and we are left with well you. Reread your posts and I hope what you leave behind as your legacy you are content with.


feel better? good.... now, GFY:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## RIVETER

*IBEW damaged rep.*



minibdr said:


> The reason this contry is in the crapper is the workforce I agree. The uneducated selfish me me mentality rat bastard workforce that you are a member of. My contractor pays a fair days pay for a fair days work, does yours? Tell me what does he pay you? What benifits do you have. Will he be there when you need him for lets say health and welfare? The unions are not on the decline they have declined and we are left with well you. Reread your posts and I hope what you leave behind as your legacy you are content with.


Well, finally, someone who is not trying to instigate. :no: If you are happy with your situation then I AM truly glad for you. I wish all had it good. It is the UNHAPPY people who are seeking better things for their families and tend to lash out at others who they think are stumbling blocks....Why are you ranting? This is a serious question. I am still okay in this economy but a lot of others are not. Why add insult to injury? Maybe I missed a post of yours on which you were wronged, if so I am sorry. Other than that why would you be so "FIT TO BE TIED?.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i'm saying some contracts are archaic and are continued simply out of ignorance/greed/stupidity...take your pick...
> 
> tenure? c'mon...in many cases, the abused (that these contracts were designed to protect) have become the abusers...


The contracts were designed to protect the innocent from politically motivated arbitrary firings. Want to fire us? You need cause, very simple. What is the cause? Teacher isn't teaching, is using inappropriate language, classes are run amok and out of control? Then establish standards and show that the teacher isn't meeting them. Documentation. Before tenure, teachers used to get fired because a member of the school board needed a position to give to their sister or husband or relative. 

This is similar to the IBEW - we encourage contractors to fire with cause the cylinders who aren't firing. Many are STILL loathe to do it simply because they do not want to show up for a hearing... then they bitch because they asked for 25 men and 2 of them were slugs... slugs they themselves ROW'd within the past few years...

But of course Oldman, it's all the fault of unionism, right?



> yet, you keep up the charade after having the difference explained to you numerous times...c'mon...


I have a feeling the interjection of pieceworkers was contrived to lure me into this, so I'm dropping it. But you know as well as I, many contractors tried that trick - having PURELY pieceworkers under their license working PURELY for 1099 money and it is 100% ILLEGAL. 

...just another facet in the race to the bottom.



> no disagreement.....been arguing that for years...i just don't believe in absolving incompetent labor...


Considering what labor controls as compared to management...?



> you're right...it's never happened...and it'll never happen in the future...:laughing:


...Still waiting for the meat. :whistling2:



> and that's the beauty of America


If this is the beauty, I shutter at what the ugliness is... 



> just because I don't believe that you are worth $100/hr doesn't equate to worker abuse...


Just because I don't believe you get to determine what anyone's worth is and that there needs to be a better method, and there is, doesn't make me a commie. In fact, it makes me more of a capatilist. Your distain for the process is purely based on the fact that your ability to get one over on an employee is thwarted. 

We set a standard. You must rise above it.

But what you want is to sneak under it. Whatever it takes to increase your bottom line.



> who's minimum? should I be forced to by a $100 tool when a $10 tool will serve my needs just as well?


No. But people, other than Bob Badger, generally aren't tools. 
You have a lamp-changing job, any monkey can do it. 
You WANT to price it as electrical work, but hire monkeys.
Sorry, no can do.

You have a tenant fitout past the core - pretty general basic stuff, you COULD do it with a bunch of 3rd and 4th year apprentices, and maybe one competant J-man or foreman... but you can't because the ratio would be wrong. Your methods won't work overall and in the long run for the betterment of the future of our industry - you, like so many today, want the instant gratification easy-money right now, buy by lowering the standards. But keep in mind how this senerio would play out if EVERYBODY did it, not just you. Need an example? Look at nonunion "low voltage contractor" shops.



> c'mon...i'd tell you not to be ignorant, but I don't feel like writing up a contract for it...
> 
> 
> see above....
> 
> 
> and what's wrong with striving to be the best? this country was built by people striving to be the best...I don't feel that we should worship mediocrity...


Striving to be "the best" pits laborer against laborer, and in the grand scheme of things, it is not in labor's best interests to race and climb and scratch and claw to be better than everyone else. The boss profits handsomely from the competition and though he didn't participate in the race, he won it. And all of labor lost it, no matter what place they finished in.

In a nutshell Oldman, you are a labor broker. You want labor to produce more, so you can profit more, NOT so labor can profit more - proving that excelling in labor is a losing battle. If you would truely up the compensation of labor to it's TRUE worth, there would be no need for even you to push it to produce more. 



> i don't believe i did...


Who hired the labor? Who managed it? Who didn't take the steps necessary to keep labor productive? All I know is, it wasn't labor... 



> nah, you are waiting for me to get up, go track the buffalo, kill it....then you pop up and say "hey, where's my share"....


Complete exaggeration and fabrication. You don't track or kill the buffalo - you hire others to do the dirty work for you, then stake your claim on the entire thing and resent that your employees have the audacity to want a meal or two.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ...Still waiting for the meat.



I always figured that.:whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> sure...hey, go get a spanish to english translator and look at the phrase under my name...:whistling2:


The devil's advocate? Negotiator?

Beats "Purple sinking house prarie..."


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I always figured that.:whistling2:


Bob, how far did you get past high school? Not much I think... :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bob, how far did you get past high school? Not much I think... :laughing:


Yeah because you are always a model of maturity. :laughing:

If I had set myself up like that you would have taken the shot, you know it. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> if life were so simple, forest gump would be a real person....


If life were so simple there'd be no need for contractors.


> yet, when a business owner says that same phrase "GFY" to labor, he's cheating and taking advantage of them? good to know...


No, he states such by saying you are fired. And can back it up.



> ask around...not about to go into full details here...anyone from Jersey knows about the BA in 456...


Well I know nothing about what your alluding to, and I'm not from New Jersey. So at least I got that going for me... 


> I wish it was just my warped business tactics...life would be better if it were just me


I understand Oldman, really I do. But your solution is to sink to the level they're at, taking me and organized labor right down with you. You should be proud your workers won't stand for that.



> always


Sanity is overrated dontcha think?



> i'm not...it's the systematic sense of entitlement that I blame on the union


Simply demanding a minimum standard does not a sense of entitlement make. It's like saying McDonald's burger flippers have some gall to demand minimum wage... 



> that's sounds exactly like what happens in Merit shops every day...ok, i think you are on to something...


Not from what I've seen in merit shops. What I see is a couple of well-heeled know-it-alls and a plethora of underpaid disillusioned "Junior Mechanics" thinking someday they'll make it to the top... 



> what's your point?


That every GTO sold for more since then wasn't a ripoff just because ONE person got a great deal.



> isn't that what I said?


Not really. Before we get our asking price, the buyer agrees to it. The do not have to. But they do. So, we're worth it. At least to them. But putting out an example of someone better working for less proves nothing. (Other than that someone is an idiot in my eyes.) 



> i'd say right now there is a shortage of contractors willing to accept that...hence 3500 on the bench...


Typical nonunion propoganda - there's NO shortage of contractors, there is a shortage of WORK, a shortage of jobs, - hence the unemployment. A sad and hard fact in our industry, but rest assured, the ramaining 10,500 electricians who are working AREN'T working for less... and all of them KNOW that dropping their price would NOT create more jobs for the 3500 laid off members...

Of course, this is not what you and your ilk want employees to believe, you want them all to think that if everyone works for lower wages there would be more work... which is why I say contractors are liars and manipulators and will say and do anything to better themselves and their position no matter what the ripple effect has on labor, which they could care less about.

Which is EXACTLY why we need unions - and for unions to educate its' members about these underhanded tactics.



> speak for yourself...i just don't want to be forced to support someone else who is too lazy to support themselves...I sent my ex packing for that...


...and yet, you want your employees to work for less to support you. Now who's the slug here?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Yeah because you are always a model of maturity. :laughing:
> 
> If I had set myself up like that you would have taken the shot, you know it. :laughing:


Touche Bob... touche. :thumbsup:


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If life were so simple there'd be no need for contractors.
> 
> No, he states such by saying you are fired. And can back it up.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I know nothing about what your alluding to, and I'm not from New Jersey. So at least I got that going for me...
> 
> 
> I understand Oldman, really I do. But your solution is to sink to the level they're at, taking me and organized labor right down with you. You should be proud your workers won't stand for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sanity is overrated dontcha think?
> 
> 
> 
> Simply demanding a minimum standard does not a sense of entitlement make. It's like saying McDonald's burger flippers have some gall to demand minimum wage...
> 
> 
> 
> Not from what I've seen in merit shops. What I see is a couple of well-heeled know-it-alls and a plethora of underpaid disillusioned "Junior Mechanics" thinking someday they'll make it to the top...
> 
> 
> 
> That every GTO sold for more since then wasn't a ripoff just because ONE person got a great deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. Before we get our asking price, the buyer agrees to it. The do not have to. But they do. So, we're worth it. At least to them. But putting out an example of someone better working for less proves nothing. (Other than that someone is an idiot in my eyes.)
> 
> 
> 
> Typical nonunion propoganda - there's NO shortage of contractors, there is a shortage of WORK, a shortage of jobs, - hence the unemployment. A sad and hard fact in our industry, but rest assured, the ramaining 10,500 electricians who are working AREN'T working for less... and all of them KNOW that dropping their price would NOT create more jobs for the 3500 laid off members...
> 
> Of course, this is not what you and your ilk want employees to believe, you want them all to think that if everyone works for lower wages there would be more work... which is why I say contractors are liars and manipulators and will say and do anything to better themselves and their position no matter what the ripple effect has on labor, which they could care less about.
> 
> Which is EXACTLY why we need unions - and for unions to educate its' members about these underhanded tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and yet, you want your employees to work for less to support you. Now who's the slug here?


i ask no one to do anything for me...i offer an opportunity for someone to do for themselves...if they want to do it, fine...if they choose not to, fine...

if I choose to go union and pay $100/hr for labor, fine...if I choose to go merit and pay $50/hr for labor....well, that should be fine too, but you think i'm now cheating that guy out of $50/hr to unjustly enrich myself...


----------



## wildleg

oldman said:


> alright...how about Carrot Top? better?:whistling2:


 
I would liken lawnguy to something like a cross between peewee herman and (name your favorite home repair reality show *** here)

(not that there's anything wrong with that )


(lol - not trying to be harsh, just j/k)


----------



## RIVETER

*Bad Reputation*

Common ground may not be possible on this forum, but I, personally am enjoying the "back and forth" conversations. It is asking questions I wish I had asked, and answering some of them as well. I remember a great movie I saw a while back called a BEAUTIFUL MIND. Two young men were in a bar, of sorts, and both wanted the sharpest girl for themselves. They knew that both of them could not have her and they found common ground. A common ground that they both could live with. To me, it always possible to achieve that. The story was about a guy by the name of JOHN NASH, who incidentally, had shared the NOBEL Peace Prize in 1995. The honor was the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE in ECONOMICS. Economics affects almost every facet of our lives; the rich , the poor, the not so rich, the not so poor. When it comes to our families it can be a VICIOUS rivalry. If we fight to the death, how will it serve our family? I'm just saying.


----------



## Shado

brian john said:


> That is the logic of anyone lost on the extreme of any iussue. YOU ARE STUPID I KNOW BETTER.
> 
> No middle of the road, no working with the other side, slash and burn then when they are left holding their
> d i c k in the wind, wetting themselves they blame the old no longer around previous leaders.


Sorry, but, I am not following you here.....:blink: 

Are you saying I am lost and stupid?:001_huh:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i ask no one to do anything for me...i offer an opportunity for someone to do for themselves...if they want to do it, fine...if they choose not to, fine...


No, you "offer" an opportunity for someone else to do for themselves while you suckle on their profit-making tit and call them a slacker because you didn't get enough leftover milk.



> if I choose to go union and pay $100/hr for labor, fine...if I choose to go merit and pay $50/hr for labor....well, that should be fine too


No - "should be" isn't what is. YOU don't get to choose what is rightfully an EMPLOYEES choice, not your's. 

Get that, Oldman?

Even if all your employees are union, YOU are not union. That's why YOU can not run a job. YOu might even say, and everyone else might say you are a UNION shop - but in reality you are not. 

No such thing as a union employer. Unions don't represent employers.



> but you think i'm now cheating that guy out of $50/hr to unjustly enrich myself...


Maybe maybe not. The guy making 50 an hour might be worth that, might be worth less, or maybe worth more and you're screwing him. But smart money and history tells me he's worth more and could attain a better pacxkage with representation that leaving it up to you to decide what you want to pay him.


----------



## slickvic277

I have a very simple question for the *union contractors/employers* on this forum.Why do you continue to be signatory?The labor is just so over priced,isn't it?All the men are slugs,right?The CBA makes it impossible for you to make money,right?

My local has 350 signatory contractors.From little 5 man shops to large companies that employee hundreds of men.Shops that are a few years old and shops that are almost 100 years old.There all profitable,if they weren't they wouldn't be in business.

Our rate for a IJW is $47 per hour and a total of $72 per hour for the whole package.But this is to much money right?It makes it impossible to compete right?This is the argument between the pro and the anti,right?

Well if it was so hard,so difficult,so overpriced how could we have 350 profitable signatory contractors?

This argument comes down to one thing,MONEY.That's it.Contractors feel.....what's the word I'm looking for......ENTITLED to make as much money for as little as possible.What if we lowered the rate by $10 would that be enough?Probably not.The argument wouldn't change.Or if we went to the magical world of merit were the contractors could dictate the wages as they wish then would the argument stop?Would the wages then be fair and affordable or would we still be asking for to much?

Is there things within the IBEW that need to change?Absolutely.Is there stiffs and humpbusters?Of course there is.But if we all except less.If we all devalue ourselves to what the "market"(contractors)
demands would that just create work out of thin air?Would the employers then feel were making the right amount?The answer is NO.
If we as labor excepted less then the employers would still make the case that were overpaid.Why?Because they could make even more money if we worked for less and less.

When it comes to MONEY there is no common ground.

For the signatory contractors who employ union men I thank you and I show my appreciation every day by showing up and giving 8 for 8.That's all your ENTITLED to.

Those of you who our union contractors and are not happy,quit.Isn't that the merit philosophy(if you don't like it quit) that you want anyway?


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> I have a very simple question for the *union contractors/employers* on this forum.Why do you continue to be signatory?The labor is just so over priced,isn't it?All the men are slugs,right?The CBA makes it impossible for you to make money,right?
> 
> My local has 350 signatory contractors.From little 5 man shops to large companies that employee hundreds of men.Shops that are a few years old and shops that are almost 100 years old.There all profitable,if they weren't they wouldn't be in business.
> 
> Our rate for a IJW is $47 per hour and a total of $72 per hour for the whole package. But this is to much money right? It makes it impossible to compete right? This is the argument between the pro and the anti,right?
> 
> Well if it was so hard,so difficult,so overpriced how could we have 350 profitable signatory contractors?
> 
> This argument comes down to one thing,MONEY.That's it.Contractors feel.....what's the word I'm looking for......ENTITLED :thumbup: to make as much money for as little as possible.What if we lowered the rate by $10 would that be enough?Probably not.The argument wouldn't change.Or if we went to the magical world of merit were the contractors could dictate the wages as they wish then would the argument stop?Would the wages then be fair and affordable or would we still be asking for to much?
> 
> Is there things within the IBEW that need to change?Absolutely.Is there stiffs and humpbusters?Of course there is.But if we all except less.If we all devalue ourselves to what the "market"(contractors)
> demands would that just create work out of thin air? :thumbup: Would the employers then feel were making the right amount?The answer is NO.
> If we as labor excepted less then the employers would still make the case that were overpaid.Why? Because they could make even more money if we worked for less and less.
> 
> When it comes to MONEY there is no common ground.
> 
> For the signatory contractors who employ union men I thank you and I show my appreciation every day by showing up and giving 8 for 8.That's all your ENTITLED to.
> 
> Those of you who our union contractors and are not happy,quit. Isn't that the merit philosophy(if you don't like it quit) that you want anyway?


Bravo! :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:1400!!!


----------



## oldman

Welp. I'm convinced. You guys are right.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:1400!!!




This has to be the all time greatest thread on any forum any where!!


----------



## Bob Badger

If I ever saw this after one of my posts ....



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Bravo!



....... I would be worried I was losing my mind. :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> If I ever saw this after one of my posts ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....... I would be worried I was losing my mind. :laughing:


 
Again?


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Welp. I'm convinced. You guys are right.


What?!?!?!

No!!!

What are you taliking about? Get back here!!!


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Our rate for a IJW is $47 per hour and a total of $72 per hour for the whole package.But this is to much money right?It makes it impossible to compete right?This is the argument between the pro and the anti,right?


Hey slick, if the employer is paying you $72 hr, how much should he be allowed to charge?

$73/hr?


$173/hr

300/hr?


Tell me......


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Hey slick, if the employer is paying you $72 hr, how much should he be allowed to charge?
> 
> $73/hr?
> 
> 
> $173/hr
> 
> 300/hr?
> 
> 
> Tell me......



As much as he needs to cover his costs,overhead and to turn a profit.

Hell,Pep boys charges $85 per hour for there labor but nobody complains.I guess oil changers and flat fixers are worth more then electricians.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> As much as he needs to cover his costs,overhead and to turn a profit.


But you want the right to define these, right?


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> But you want the right to define these, right?



No, just for my wages.His overhead,bills and so forth are his responsibilities.

That's why I said there's no common ground.My definition of fair and yours are two *VERY* different things.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> But you want the right to define these, right?



Whats fair to you? $25,$18,$12 per hour.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What?!?!?!
> 
> No!!!
> 
> What are you taliking about? Get back here!!!



I have a feeling he'll be back.


----------



## minibdr

badger the light bulb changer wana be and grumpyoldman have this site monopolized I see. You pathetic excuses for wana be electrcians should do an apprentiship in reality.Now go make your 25 $ an hour and be happy.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Whats fair to you? $25,$18,$12 per hour.


 
Fair is what the project can afford.

With employee costs at that high rate, we couldn't compete.

You guys just assume, that if we start paying that rate, our customers will just pay it. They will walk outside and pluck more money off their tree, and give it to us.

It don't happen that way.

We live in a competitive market, you don't.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> But you want the right to define these, right?


No. Reality and a certian degree of reason and intelligence come into play too. 

In as much as you abhor someone else defining what is reasonable, why is it you embrace your ability to decide such?


----------



## Shado

Dnkldorf said:


> Hey slick, if the employer is paying you $72 hr, how much should he be allowed to charge?
> 
> $73/hr?
> 
> 
> $173/hr
> 
> 300/hr?
> 
> 
> Tell me......


I asked lawnguy a similar question....no answer.

Employer is not allowed to make money....if he is...he is a thief stealing from labor.

No union guy can/will state what they fell is a fair figure for the employer to make...be it $$ or %......


----------



## oldman

Hey wait, I have a novel idea. If all 'contractors' paid their labor $75-100/hr, and billed their customers $150-200/hr(+materials), then all would be right in the world. 

Simple, right?


----------



## slickvic277

Shado said:


> I asked lawnguy a similar question....no answer.
> 
> Employer is not allowed to make money....if he is...he is a thief stealing from labor.
> 
> No union guy can/will state what they fell is a fair figure for the employer to make...be it $$ or %......



I got no problem with the contractor making money,he has to for me to stay employed.But don't feed me that crap about being over priced!Like I said 350 profitable signatory contractors.The difference is,they negotiated with labor on a fair wage.....not dictated.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Fair is what I the project can afford.


Sounds like communism to me.



> With employee costs at that high rate, we couldn't compete.


You can't compete on that level. You're small and insignifigant. And you have to compete against others with your same logic, all striving to be the best workforce with the least pay. 

Yea... I see nothing wrong with that... :whistling2:



> You guys just assume, that if we start paying that rate, our customers will just pay it. They will walk outside and pluck more money off their tree, and give it to us.
> 
> It don't happen that way.


Sure it does, it happens all the time. 
Take a service call... 95.00 did the contractor make 95.00? No, there is overhead, profit, wages and bennies... maybe in that HOUR the worker make 30 bucks. Do you think paying prevailing rates - 49.00 an hour here, raising the bill from 95.00 to 114.00 is going to make any difference to a customer?



> We live in a competitive market, you don't.


Business should. Have to, lest antitrust laws kick in.

Labor... doesn't need to.


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> Hey wait, I have a novel idea. If all 'contractors' paid their labor $75-100/hr, and billed their customers $150-200/hr(+materials), then all would be right in the world.
> 
> Simple, right?



I knew you be back.

Come on,your smarter then that.Aren't you?There's different wages for different area's.What's livable in the Philadelphia area is going to be completely different then say the Orlando area.

These are negotiated wages.You act like they were pulled out of a hat and the contractors have no say in the matter.

If your not happy/successful with these conditions,rip up your contract with your local and partner up with dnkldrf or if your a disgruntled member you can work for him.I'm sure he'll pay you what's FAIR.


----------



## LGLS

Shado said:


> I asked lawnguy a similar question....no answer.
> 
> Employer is not allowed to make money....if he is...he is a thief stealing from labor.
> 
> No union guy can/will state what they fell is a fair figure for the employer to make...be it $$ or %......


You have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> I got no problem with the contractor making money,he has to for me to stay employed.But don't feed me that crap about being over priced!Like I said 350 profitable signatory contractors.The difference is,they negotiated with labor on a fair wage.....not dictated.


For the third quarter, McDonald's reported a profit of $1.26 billion.

How much should the burger flipper get out of that? Should the burger flipper get $65 per hour and a pension?


----------



## RIVETER

*Rep.*



Bob Badger said:


> For the third quarter, McDonald's reported a profit of $1.26 billion.
> 
> How much should the burger flipper get out of that? Should the burger flipper get $65 per hour and a pension?


I would ask that IF NO ONE FLIPPED THE BURGER,WHERE WOULD THE PROFIT COME FROM? Ray Krock tried it by himself but decided that he couldn't do what he wanted to do without extra partners. Some call them just employees.


----------



## 480sparky

Bob Badger said:


> For the third quarter, McDonald's reported a profit of $1.26 billion.
> 
> How much should the burger flipper get out of that? Should the burger flipper get $65 per hour and a pension?


 
They haven't been called Burger Flippers since the first Bush administration.


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You can't compete on that level. You're small and insignifigant. And you have to compete against others with your same logic, all striving to be the best workforce with the least pay.


Nice try. Is this your tough guy side with the condescending attitude because you can't formulate a reasonable, thoughtful and correct response to the question.

This is where you lose any credibility for your arguments.


----------



## 10492

RIVETER said:


> I would ask that IF NO ONE FLIPPED THE BURGER,WHERE WOULD THE PROFIT COME FROM?


Some small business owner would create a machine that would flip the burger.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> For the third quarter, McDonald's reported a profit of $1.26 billion.
> 
> How much should the burger flipper get out of that? Should the burger flipper get $65 per hour and a pension?



Maybe not.But I don't compare myself to a burger flipper.If you want to down play our trade by comparing us to burger flipper's,fine.But I hold our trade in higher regard then that.

But I tell you what the burger flipper should be getting.More then minimum wage,health care that actually covers the cost and why not a some sort of retirement?

McDonald's couldn't make billions a dollars a year with out the lowly burger flippers.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



Dnkldorf said:


> Some small business owner would create a machine that would flip the burger.


That is the way it could be...find a need, and satisfy that need. I think that is great. But if a person takes on a partner, and most owners expect them to act that way, then that partner/employee should be treated fairly.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Some small business owner would create a machine that would flip the burger.


Or they could just hire illegal aliens and pay them $5 per hour cash,right?
Because Americans won't do that job right?


----------



## RIVETER

*reputation*



480sparky said:


> They haven't been called Burger Flippers since the first Bush administration.


In the OBAMA administration, they would call them CZARS.


----------



## Bob Badger

RIVETER said:


> But if a person takes on a partner, and most owners expect them to act that way, then that partner/employee should be treated fairly.


Employees are not partners, they are employees.

Stop trying to steel the product of others creativity and hard work.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Employees are not partners, they are employees.
> 
> Stop trying to steel the product of others creativity and hard work.



Employees don't work hard?We don't deserve a decent wage?Having employees is a part of being in business,The most important part.Why shouldn't it be the most expensive?


----------



## EBFD6

RIVETER said:


> That is the way it could be...find a need, and satisfy that need. I think that is great. But if a person takes on a partner, and most owners expect them to act that way, then that partner/employee should be treated fairly.


To consider the burger flipper at Mickey D's a "partner" is a rather big stretch.

The same is true for the employees of an electrical contractor. I don't get why you guys don't understand this.

Employee doesn't equal partner, no matter how much you want it too.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Or they could just hire illegal aliens and pay them $5 per hour cash,right?
> Because Americans won't do that job right?


Americans won't pay $20 for a happy meal.

Markets control prices.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Nice try. Is this your tough guy side with the condescending attitude because you can't formulate a reasonable, thoughtful and correct response to the question.
> 
> This is where you lose any credibility for your arguments.


Nothing I rationalize will ever satisfy a person whose success depends on the ignorance and gulliability of their workers. IOW - I spell disaster for those "fringe" contractors... I therefore am not expecting any agreeable alccolades from them. Especially not from you. Poor me.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Employees are not partners, they are employees.
> 
> Stop trying to steel the product of others creativity and hard work.


Ah yes... others "creativity." After all, there are only what, 3,500,000 "contractors" in the USA? Oh yea Bob, you're unique... no other shop quite like yours... :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Americans won't pay $20 for a happy meal.
> 
> Markets control prices.


Unions control wages. Deal with it, that's as much a part of the market as customers are.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Employees don't work hard?We don't deserve a decent wage?Having employees is a part of being in business,The most important part.Why shouldn't it be the most expensive?


No matter how hard you work it is not your business, you are not a partner and you do not deserve to be paid more than the owner decides to pay you. 

If you want the big share of the money start your own damn company.

God this entitlement crap will be the end of this country.


----------



## drsparky

Bob Badger said:


> For the third quarter, McDonald's reported a profit of $1.26 billion.
> 
> How much should the burger flipper get out of that? Should the burger flipper get $65 per hour and a pension?


Bob if you want to flip burgers take some night classes, study hard and they might let you in. You will not have to worry about the bad old union anymore.


----------



## RIVETER

*reputation*



Bob Badger said:


> Employees are not partners, they are employees.
> 
> Stop trying to steel the product of others creativity and hard work.


Just to let you know, I am not totally against what you are talking about. If you have the idea, the guts, the where-with-all, whatever that means, to open a business, to your credit you deserve a lot. I have known several contractor/friends who simply did not have the resources, manpower wise,to bid the bigger jobs. They made the decision to become union contractors in order to take advantage of that resource. I don't go around telling others that they are just taking advantage of us. I just do my job.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ah yes... others "creativity." After all, there are only what, 3,500,000 "contractors" in the USA? Oh yea Bob, you're unique... no other shop quite like yours... :whistling2:


That has nothing to do with what I said and you know it.


----------



## Bob Badger

drsparky said:


> Bob if you want to flip burgers take some night classes, study hard and they might let you in. You will not have to worry about the bad old union anymore.


I don't worry about the union, I do worry about this country if to many people have views like LGLS.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation-IBEW*



EBFD6 said:


> To consider the burger flipper at Mickey D's a "partner" is a rather big stretch.
> 
> The same is true for the employees of an electrical contractor. I don't get why you guys don't understand this.
> 
> Employee doesn't equal partner, no matter how much you want it too.


How would you define the term, EMPLOYEE.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No matter how hard you work it is not your business, you are not a partner and you do not deserve to be paid more than the owner decides to pay you.
> 
> If you want the big share of the money start your own damn company.
> 
> God this entitlement crap will be the end of this country.


Noooo... if you want a bigger share of the profits unionize - MAKE the owner pay you or force him out of business. 99 times out of 100 he''ll pay the better wage and continue to make money.

Wanting a fair piece of the pie is not entitlement. "Entitlement" is the idea that one person is the end-all be-all decider on your wages...


----------



## oldman

Slick, I never said I was leaving, I just said you were right. 

The reality is, for most trade companies, whether a 2 man shop or a 200 man shop, if labor (including burden) starts to get above 50-55%, they are getting into financial trouble. Service oriented companies need to keep that % down to 35-40%. 

Additionally, most contractors on this board would hire B men. So while an A man in NJ is around $80/hr total, a B man is about $39/hr total. 

95% of our work is B work, and our JW's average about $40/hr total package, non-union. There really is no financial benefit for me to stay non-union. 

But, if more contractors would charge more $, life would be better. But look around this forum - AC hookups for $300, including material. Job would have to be, and should be, $800 to pay a $40/hr package and OH/P. 

Could you sell that job for $800?


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Unions control wages. Deal with it, that's as much a part of the market as customers are.


You should write a book on the knowledge you posses in regards to understanding markets and common business practices.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Americans won't pay $20 for a happy meal.
> 
> Markets control prices.



You act like the line between wages and profit are so small.McDonald's mad over a BILLION dollars in the Quarter.Paying out a bit more in wages will only cost the "market" more if McDonald's is greedy enough to want to keep making BILLIONS of dollars.

McDonalds is aloud to make BILIONS of DOLLARS but the employees should make sh*t is your argument for everything!

Greedy is the only word to describe people like you.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Noooo... if you want a bigger share of the profits unionize - MAKE the owner pay you or force him out of business. 99 times out of 100 he''ll pay the better wage and continue to make money.


Sorry, that to me amounts to robbing people with a gun.


What you describe above is a text book example of extortion.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Slick, I never said I was leaving, I just said you were right.
> 
> The reality is, for most trade companies, whether a 2 man shop or a 200 man shop, if labor (including burden) starts to get above 50-55%, they are getting into financial trouble. Service oriented companies need to keep that % down to 35-40%.


35 -40%? Are you MAD? What are you paying management and yourself after static overhead? 



> Additionally, most contractors on this board would hire B men. So while an A man in NJ is around $80/hr total, a B man is about $39/hr total.


You must be way South...



> 95% of our work is B work, and our JW's average about $40/hr total package, non-union. There really is no financial benefit for me to stay non-union.
> 
> But, if more contractors would charge more $, life would be better. But look around this forum - AC hookups for $300, including material. Job would have to be, and should be, $800 to pay a $40/hr package and OH/P.
> 
> Could you sell that job for $800?


Or.. instead of looking around the forum... look at what is being asked. CONTRACTORS asking what they should charge? Think that guy was really ready to go into business?

On the SIDE even I would charge more than that.


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> Slick, I never said I was leaving, I just said you were right.
> 
> The reality is, for most trade companies, whether a 2 man shop or a 200 man shop, if labor (including burden) starts to get above 50-55%, they are getting into financial trouble. Service oriented companies need to keep that % down to 35-40%.
> 
> Additionally, most contractors on this board would hire B men. So while an A man in NJ is around $80/hr total, a B man is about $39/hr total.
> 
> 95% of our work is B work, and our JW's average about $40/hr total package, non-union. There really is no financial benefit for me to stay non-union.
> 
> But, if more contractors would charge more $, life would be better. But look around this forum - AC hookups for $300, including material. Job would have to be, and should be, $800 to pay a $40/hr package and OH/P.
> 
> Could you sell that job for $800?



I get what your saying.We don't have a "B" ticket here.Electrical work is electrical work.It's all worth the same.And yet were successful.Like I said Oldman it all comes down to money.Theres never going to be a common ground.They want to make the most money for as little risk as possible.And labor refuses to work for free.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Sorry, that to me amounts to robbing people with a gun.
> 
> 
> What you describe above is a text book example of extortion.


But isn't that the cut throat American capitalistic way.The way you want things to be.Come on Bob,you know business is cut throat.I guess labor should be the victim then?


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Sorry, that to me amounts to robbing people with a gun.


I don't care what it amounts to to you. Robbing with a gun is illegal. Unionizing is not. Collective bargianing is not. 

You MUST concede - MOST of the trades are in SHAMBLES right now. It's not because 12% of them are union. So it must be the other 88%.



> What you describe above is a text book example of extortion.


No, boss-man telling me what I'm going to get paid, or I don't eat and lose my house and family... is how I describe extortion.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> You act like the line between wages and profit are so small.McDonald's mad over a BILLION dollars in the Quarter.Paying out a bit more in wages will only cost the "market" more if McDonald's is greedy enough to want to keep making BILLIONS of dollars.
> 
> McDonalds is aloud to make BILIONS of DOLLARS but the employees should make sh*t is your argument for everything!
> 
> Greedy is the only word to describe people like you.


Mcdonalds has 447,000 employees.

1.2 billion in profit.



Mcdonalds makes $1/hr off each employee.

Now raise this cost by $20hr.

Happy meals would be $20 to cover costs.

Mcdonalds would be out of business, resulting in 477,000 people out of work.


----------



## oldman

LGLS - 35-40% for service oriented companies is accurate. Do some research. 

Those labor rates are local 102. North Jersey.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Mcdonalds has 447,000 employees.
> 
> 1.2 billion in profit.
> 
> 
> 
> Mcdonalds makes $1/hr off each employee.
> 
> Now raise this cost by $20hr.
> 
> Happy meals would be $20 to cover costs.
> 
> Mcdonalds would be out of business, resulting in 477,000 people out of work.



These numbers came from where?Then how do they make over a billion dollars a year?The math doesn't add up?


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> These numbers came from where?Then how do they make over a billion dollars a year?The math doesn't add up?


1.26 billion in profit, right

divide that by 477,000 employees. (sorry 447,000)

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/snapshots/848.html

Thats $2641 profit per employee.

8hrs a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year= working hours per year.

divide by profit.

divide by 4 qtrs a year.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Mcdonalds has 447,000 employees.
> 
> 1.2 billion in profit.
> 
> 
> 
> Mcdonalds makes $1/hr off each employee.
> 
> Now raise this cost by $20hr.
> 
> Happy meals would be $20 to cover costs.
> 
> Mcdonalds would be out of business, resulting in 477,000 people out of work.


A happy meal shouldn't cost 20.00. But should it cost 1.99?
Should a double cheeseburger cost .99?


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> 1.26 billion in profit, right
> 
> divide that by 477,000 employees. (sorry 447,000)
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/snapshots/848.html
> 
> Thats $2641 profit per employee.
> 
> 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year= working hours per year.
> 
> divide by profit.
> 
> divide by 4 qtrs a year.


You're dividing by 52 weeks then later by quarter again?

BTW the profits posted by McDonalds do not include the additional profits made by the individual franchisees...


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't care what it amounts to to you. Robbing with a gun is illegal. Unionizing is not. Collective bargianing is not.


I never said it was illegal, it just puts you on the same level as thieves.



> You MUST concede - MOST of the trades are in SHAMBLES right now. It's not because 12% of them are union. So it must be the other 88%


I think the coury is in shambles and I don't think unions are going to make it better.



> No, boss-man telling me what I'm going to get paid, or I don't eat and lose my house and family... is how I describe extortion.


Why would you work for someone that treated you like that, are you a moron? Have you know mind of your own?


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You're dividing by 52 weeks then later by quarter again?


Profits posted are by the quarter.



> BTW the profits posted by McDonalds do not include the additional profits made by the individual franchisees...


What?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But isn't that the cut throat American capitalistic way.The way you want things to be.Come on Bob,you know business is cut throat.*I guess labor should be the victim then?*


No I think _people_ should take responsibility for their own well being.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> 1.26 billion in profit, right
> 
> divide that by 477,000 employees. (sorry 447,000)
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/snapshots/848.html
> 
> Thats $2641 profit per employee.
> 
> 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year= working hours per year.
> 
> divide by profit.
> 
> divide by 4 qtrs a year.


Jesus! were protecting the right of a company to make billions a dollars a year.It's even better that your math adds up.So lets say for sh*t's and giggles that every body at McyDees pay increased enough to cut the profit by half,there still making over a billion dollars a year right?

But that's not enough.I guess when all the minimum wages went up McDonalds lost boat loads of money right?


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> Jesus! were protecting the right of a company to make billions a dollars a year.It's even better that your math adds up.So lets say for sh*t's and giggles that every body at McyDees pay increased enough to cut the profit by half,there still making over a billion dollars a year right?
> 
> But that's not enough.I guess when all the minimum wages went up McDonalds lost boat loads of money right?


 
No it is not because investors would see the company as not as profitable and bail on their stock, company would lose investors, no be able to fund growth and spiral down hill.

Now what might work is for you to take a cut in pay. WHAT? HELL NO Slick is union you can't F with his money he wants you to take it from someone else.

See there is more to the market than labor and simplistic attemps at resolving a complicated issue.


----------



## RIVETER

*Damaged*

Life is full of guarantees. One is that if one out of ten McDonald's employee would say " I want $.50 per hour", he would be sent packing. If 9 out of 10 said that, they would be a force to be reckoned with . Corporate would have to make a decision. Either pay it or close shop. I'll take bets on what they would do. They would accept that they could still make money after the pay raise, and just live with it. (I wouldn't take that bet either). What they would do is raise the price of a Happy Meal. They don't really love your child. They love the notion that you think of their employees being "BURGER FLIPPERS". They don't want us to know that a lot of them are providers for families. A lot of times the companies create the UNREST.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> No it is not because investors would see the company as not as profitable and bail on their stock, company would lose investors, no be able to fund growth and spiral down hill.
> 
> Now what might work is for you to take a cut in pay. WHAT? HELL NO Slick is union you can't F with his money he wants you to take it from someone else.
> 
> See there is more to the market than labor and simplistic attemps at resolving a complicated issue.



So even though before the economy tanked we had full employment and EVERYONE was making money I have to take a pay cut.And this creates work how?


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> I never said it was illegal, it just puts you on the same level as thieves.
> 
> 
> Why would you work for someone that treated you like that, are you a moron? Have you know mind of your own?



Oh Bob.................... You are Trolling again :whistling2:


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> You act like the line between wages and profit are so small.McDonald's mad over a BILLION dollars in the Quarter.Paying out a bit more in wages will only cost the "market" more if McDonald's is greedy enough to want to keep making BILLIONS of dollars.


 
This is what you wrote without thinking about it, or even trying to understand it.

I posted the math to show you, you are wrong again.

Maybe they should serve crow.


----------



## 10492

brian john said:


> .
> 
> See there is more to the market than labor and simplistic attemps at resolving a complicated issue.


Yup.....but some won't take the time and understand it, they are better at spouting BS, and hoping it sticks somewhere.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> So even though before the economy tanked we had full employment and EVERYONE was making money I have to take a pay cut.And this creates work how?


One man at $72/hr or two men at $36/hr.

Twice as many people working making a living wage.


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*



Dnkldorf said:


> One man at $72/hr or two men at $36/hr.
> 
> Twice as many people working making a living wage.


What if you could get four to work for $18 an hour? Would that be good? How about Eight at $9 an hour? For sure there would be more Blood around to water your trees.


----------



## 10492

RIVETER said:


> What if you could get four to work for $18 an hour? Would that be good? How about Eight at $9 an hour?


End product costs will be cheaper.




> For sure there would be more Blood around to water your trees.


This makes no sense.


----------



## RIVETER

*Damaged*



Dnkldorf said:


> End product costs will be cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This makes no sense.


I trust that others will see the sense in it.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> So even though before the economy tanked we had full employment and EVERYONE was making money I have to take a pay cut.And this creates work how?


The same way you want business to increase pay to employees for NO REASON. MAkes no sense.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> The same way you want business to increase pay to employees for NO REASON. MAkes no sense.



Look the McDonalds thing was an example,that I didn't even bring up.But lets be honest with ourselves if places like McDonalds,Target,Walmart,Home Depot,Lowes,etc,etc.... gave there employees just a little bit more,it would not send the companies into some spiraling,downward,company ending world wide depression.The ginormous profits posted by these companies would be just a little smaller.And were not talking about some poor business owner barely making it by.Were talking about multi-multi millionaires.Why do we protect greed so much?Middle class people who want a little more for themselves are called socialists and labled with the word entitled.But giant corporations who post billions of dollars of profit and pay there ceo's hundreds of millions are protected as a shining example of capitalism.

Look what has happened to this country.Stop trying to sell the idea that this version of capitalism is the only way and the best thing since sliced bread.

You and dnkldrf and Bob can continue to stick up for greedy millionaires and I'll continue to stick up for the working class who no matter how you feel,have just as much right to "capitalize" of there labor as the business owner does.


----------



## oldman

i think it's ludacris that gas/oil companies make billions of $ in profit...or that McDonald's makes billions of $ in profit...I think everyone should be limited to 1% profit...that's more fair...

additionally, i'm actually in agreement with LGLS than I let on, since most EC's in NYC, and around the country for that matter, are nothing more than large corporations...no one's life is on the line...there really isn't much difference between the CEO and the Super...both were simply hired by the corporation and are paid a salary...so, I don't believe that the CEO should earn obscene personal profits as they run the company into debt to artificially pump up the stock....

edit to add - didn't see slicks post until after i posted...


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> i think it's ludacris that gas/oil companies make billions of $ in profit...or that McDonald's makes billions of $ in profit...I think everyone should be limited to 1% profit...that's more fair...
> 
> additionally, i'm actually in agreement with LGLS than I let on, since most EC's in NYC, and around the country for that matter, are nothing more than large corporations...no one's life is on the line...there really isn't much difference between the CEO and the Super...both were simply hired by the corporation and are paid a salary...so, I don't believe that the CEO should earn obscene personal profits as they run the company into debt to artificially pump up the stock....



But Oldman this is the great American capitalistic way!I mean,what are you?A socialist.Only socialist would talk like that!!

Only those at the very top are aloud to make any money everyone else is suppose to beg on there hands and knees.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> But Oldman this is the great American capitalistic way!I mean,what are you?A socialist.Only socialist would talk like that!!
> 
> Only those at the very top are aloud to make any money everyone else is suppose to beg on there hands and knees.


nah...i just don't believe in letting BS go unchecked:laughing:

but, I truthfully don't agree with CEO's earning ridiculous bonuses every year...simply because they aren't risking anything...it's a big difference between that and the small contractor struggling to build something...

but the unions need to see the difference too...


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> No I think _people_ should take responsibility for their own well being.


And I do - I got an accountant to get me the best tax refund. I got the best lawyer to defend me in court, and I got the world's best negotiating team to get me the best employment package possible. Now that's taking responsibility!


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> No it is not because investors would see the company as not as profitable and bail on their stock, company would lose investors, no be able to fund growth and spiral down hill.


Noooo, you cannot SELL stock unless someone else BUYS it. Stock certificates don't vanish into thin air you know... :whistling2:



> Now what might work is for you to take a cut in pay. WHAT? HELL NO Slick is union you can't F with his money he wants you to take it from someone else.
> 
> See there is more to the market than labor and simplistic attemps at resolving a complicated issue.


You stick to believing stock sells to nobody... :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Yup.....but some won't take the time and understand it, they are better at spouting BS, and hoping it sticks somewhere.


Spouting BS like, people would sell their stock into thin air?


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Noooo, you cannot SELL stock unless someone else BUYS it. Stock certificates don't vanish into thin air you know...


 
Yes they do.

Are you also a stock broker on the side?


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> nah...i just don't believe in letting BS go unchecked:laughing:
> 
> but, I truthfully don't agree with CEO's earning ridiculous bonuses every year...simply because they aren't risking anything...it's a big difference between that and the small contractor struggling to build something...
> 
> but the unions need to see the difference too...



Absolutely.In the very beginning of the thread(page 1)I brought up a bunch of points that the IBEW could change on to make OUR union better.
But look were this thread has gone.It's all about money and there is no common ground.The contractors large and small all think we make to much.What do you suggest?Do you really think that lowering our rates,working with out HEalth insurance and a retirement would make them happy?

How much should we give back?When will there demands for less and less stop?

From my experience,the local will work with the smaller shops,especially the ones just starting out.How much rope do you give them?when do you take the training wheels off?


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i think it's ludacris that gas/oil companies make billions of $ in profit...or that McDonald's makes billions of $ in profit...I think everyone should be limited to 1% profit...that's more fair...
> 
> additionally, i'm actually in agreement with LGLS than I let on, since most EC's in NYC, and around the country for that matter, are nothing more than large corporations...no one's life is on the line...there really isn't much difference between the CEO and the Super...both were simply hired by the corporation and are paid a salary...so, I don't believe that the CEO should earn obscene personal profits as they run the company into debt to artificially pump up the stock....
> 
> edit to add - didn't see slicks post until after i posted...


IMHO, (well, maybe not so humble) the necessary fuels for our world should not be in private or corporate hands. Sure sure... brand me a socialist, but privately held electric utilities? Can anyone say Enron? Is your water company private? Verizon? Telecommunications? 

Point of fact: when the energy markets, once heavily regulated became deregulated, the cost of power went UP and stayed UP ever since. NOWHERE in the United States did the cost of electricity come down. How was THAT good for America?

Capatilism cannot work unless it is subject to limits, regulations and held to set standards, which require adjusting from time to time. Unchecked, unregulated capatilism does not work very long for everybody.


----------



## slickvic277

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> IMHO, (well, maybe not so humble) the necessary fuels for our world should not be in private or corporate hands. Sure sure... brand me a socialist, but privately held electric utilities? Can anyone say Enron? Is your water company private? Verizon? Telecommunications?
> 
> Point of fact: when the energy markets, once heavily regulated became deregulated, the cost of power went UP and stayed UP ever since. NOWHERE in the United States did the cost of electricity come down. How was THAT good for America?
> 
> Capatilism cannot work unless it is subject to limits, regulations and held to set standards, which require adjusting from time to time. Unchecked, unregulated capatilism does not work very long for everybody.



My point exactly.We'll see how long it takes for this post to get attacked.


----------



## oldman

the flaw to that is that you can get lower pricing on electric and gas and other utilities...but you have to shop for them...deregulation allowed the local utility company to raise their rates commensurate with their costs...so, prices went up from an artificially low price...shop around and you can find utilities for less than they were before deregulation....


----------



## RIVETER

*Damaged reputation*



Dnkldorf said:


> Yes they do.
> 
> Are you also a stock broker on the side?


Stock certificates do not vanish in thin air, but their value certainly can. If a stock trades at it true value, then the only thing that is lost is the cost of the transaction. If someone gets nervous and wants to try to cut their losses and sells,then the BUYER gets a deal and the difference, in DOLLARS, is lost to the seller.


----------



## 10492

RIVETER said:


> Stock certificates do not vanish in thin air, but their value certainly can.


Companies go bankrupt and it wipes out all common stock. they vanish into thin air.

Then the bastards exit banrupcty, and issue all new ones.

If you held on to them, or couldn't sell them in time, they vanished all right.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Companies go bankrupt and it wipes out all common stock. they vanish into thin air.


...but you still have the CERTIFICATE. And buying it you took the RISK with NO guarantee of reward. "Past performance does not guarantee future results..."



> Then the bastards exit banrupcty, and issue all new ones.
> 
> If you held on to them, or couldn't sell them in time, they vanished all right.


Just like many employees of larger Merit shops - told they'll get a pension in 5 years, unbeknownst to them the company re-incorporates and find out in 5 years they've only been working for that company for one year, right??? 

No no no... that NEVER happens. :whistling2:


----------



## oldman

i personally think the stock market is the downfall of this country...it causes people/companies to not think past the current quarter...and it's not based on anything other than speculation...the government should literally shut down the market and force companies to survive on their own merit...


----------



## milehiwire

oldman said:


> i personally think the stock market is the downfall of this country...it causes people/companies to not think past the current quarter...and it's not based on anything other than speculation...the government should literally shut down the market and force companies to survive on their own merit...


And you now make minimum wage old man. No bennies either. It will make your company much more competitive,


----------



## oldman

milehiwire said:


> And you now make minimum wage old man. No bennies either. It will make your company much more competitive,


i got the job? you hired me? sweet, i'm on the next plane...hey, could you front me a few bucks for the plane ticket?


----------



## milehiwire

oldman said:


> i got the job? you hired me? sweet, i'm on the next plane...hey, could you front me a few bucks for the plane ticket?


That you know spanish is a major plus and worth .02 an hour.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about.


Oh, I have a much better idea than you think.

So far, I have gathered that you are just an employee, with little experience or knowledge on owning/operating a business.

I, on the other hand...have been an employee, and an owner of 5 different companies over the past 30 years...some with employees, most without.

You have just been unable to meet the challenge to answer a simple question.

It has been stated many times that owners are liars, manipulators, making bank off the sweat of labor. Is this not the reason for your CBA? Owners make toooooo much money and you are entitled to your fair share because of this?
Now just to clarifyand understand...for those of us who are not in the 'hood'....exactly how is this CBA calculated? What goes into deciding the $$ figure?

As profits increase, you still get your fair share right? Again....what is the acceptable $$ or % allowed for owners......


----------



## slickvic277

I have another simple question for the contractors who frequent this section of the forum(even though I never really got an answer for my last question).

What is a *FAIR* wage for the average electrician?What do you expect to pay a guy with 5 to 6 years experience in commercial/industrial construction and service experience?I'm curious,this thread has really been an argument about money more then anything else.So what's fair in your mind?Please no mundane b.s answers,lets here some dollars and cents.I don't care what the top guy is making or the lowly 19 year old "helper" who's fresh out of tech school,what do you pay your average electricians?

Do you offer health care?Why or why not?How about some sort of retirement plan?What's the average merit shop electrician worth to the average merit shop contractors?

I know wages vary from location to location but union wages can be looked up by anyone so whatchya guy's paying?


----------



## LGLS

Shado said:


> Oh, I have a much better idea than you think.
> 
> So far, I have gathered that you are just an employee, with little experience or knowledge on owning/operating a business.
> 
> I, on the other hand...have been an employee, and an owner of 5 different companies over the past 30 years...some with employees, most without.
> 
> You have just been unable to meet the challenge to answer a simple question.
> 
> It has been stated many times that owners are liars, manipulators, making bank off the sweat of labor. Is this not the reason for your CBA? Owners make toooooo much money and you are entitled to your fair share because of this?
> 
> Now just to clarifyand understand...for those of us who are not in the 'hood'....exactly how is this CBA calculated? What goes into deciding the $$ figure?


A CBA doesn't peg wages and benefits to a static % of profits. I've pointed out that during negotiations IF contractors make the claim that they cannot profit under the proposed terms of the CBA they would have to show not only show that, but explain why the local should make consessions to make it right for them. We ask for raises, and base that request on simple cost of living and other economic indicators, agreements reached by other trades. And we prove that... 

More often than not, the actual increase in hourly wage request isn't challenged, most of the sticking points have to do with policy - working rules and apprentice acceptance ratios.


----------



## brian john

Obviously we have different views on workers and management and on this it appears we will never agree, but the real issue of this post is the IBEW.



> Please no mundane b.s answers,lets here some


*truth*


So thee simple questions, no bashing the press, no bashing open shops, no bashing management, just answer the questions honestly.


Is there an issue with the public perception of Unions?

Should Unions and the IBEW in particular do anything different to change this perception?

If they attempt to rescue themselves what should they do?

For me it makes little or no difference if the union falls flat on it's face or not. My company, a union shop does quite well, we have a niche in the market place and are respected by union and open shops (25% of my customers). I do feel that most workers will benefit when they are members of a local, just for portability of benefits if nothing else. But my experience with the bad element of the local from my first year in the trade to today has always made me wonder why these trouble makers are tolerated.


----------



## 10492

Do some research 


Then keep going:


*Employer Costs for Employee Compensation (ECEC)*

_December 09, 2009 _
Employer costs for state and local government workers averaged $39.83 per hour worked in September 2009; $26.24 for wages and salaries and $13.60 for benefits. State and local government health benefit costs averaged $4.43 per hour worked in September 2009 while retirement and savings averaged $3.23 per hour.


----------



## 10492

brian john said:


> Being you live in Philly try reading the Constitution.


 
The Union propagada machine hasn't informed him that there is such a document around.

I wonder if they set out his clothes in the morning.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> So what works the Big "O" method WHOOPS IN THE SH*T house on that one.
> 
> The Union method as you loose market share?
> 
> People, GOOD WORKERS that is, want to be left alone, taxed little and be produictive in a competative market place, been that way for 1,000's of years and YOU think you know better. GIVE ME A BREAK.
> You apprea to want to spread the wealth a SYSTEM that never works, the wealthy sooner or later quit being wealthy or move.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are a DOLT, I do not stick up for millionares I stick up for something fair in the middle, sensible governemnt refgulation, worker protections FOR WORKEERS not slackers, less taxes, less government intrusion.
> 
> Being you live in Philly try reading the Constitution.





Dnkldorf said:


> Do some research
> 
> 
> Then keep going:
> 
> 
> *Employer Costs for Employee Compensation (ECEC)*
> 
> _December 09, 2009 _
> Employer costs for state and local government workers averaged $39.83 per hour worked in September 2009; $26.24 for wages and salaries and $13.60 for benefits. State and local government health benefit costs averaged $4.43 per hour worked in September 2009 while retirement and savings averaged $3.23 per hour.





Dnkldorf said:


> The Union propagada machine hasn't informed him that there is such a document around.
> 
> I wonder if they set out his clothes in the morning.



Just as I suspected,not one realistic answer.Just more attacks.Brian John I really doubt your a signatory contractor.Why do you keep pretending to be so?And if by some reason you are,why continue to be so?

Dnkldrf,I asked what you would pay?Not what state and government workers make.

You guy's love throwing around constitutions and rights and freedoms but yet you refuse to acknowledge the rights of employees to collective bargain for higher wages.You act like it's all made up by union propaganda.

All right I'm ready keep calling me names,that really gets the point across.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> I have another simple question for the contractors who frequent this section of the forum(even though I never really got an answer for my last question).
> 
> What is a *FAIR* wage for the average electrician?What do you expect to pay a guy with 5 to 6 years experience in commercial/industrial construction and service experience?I'm curious,this thread has really been an argument about money more then anything else.So what's fair in your mind?Please no mundane b.s answers,lets here some dollars and cents.I don't care what the top guy is making or the lowly 19 year old "helper" who's fresh out of tech school,what do you pay your average electricians?
> 
> Do you offer health care?Why or why not?How about some sort of retirement plan?What's the average merit shop electrician worth to the average merit shop contractors?
> 
> I know wages vary from location to location but union wages can be looked up by anyone so whatchya guy's paying?


In my area first off I think there should be a progressive scale from year 5 (when the apprentice GET'S a license) to year 8 or 9, with required test and classes.

30-40 an hour
One week minimum vacation
matching the government holidays
decent health care, equivalent to Blue Cross Blue Shield high option or what the IBEW offers.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> Just as I suspected,not one realistic answer.Just more attacks.Brian John I really doubt your a signatory contractor.Why do you keep pretending to be so?And if by some reason you are,why continue to be so?
> 
> Dnkldrf,I asked what you would pay?Not what state and government workers make.
> 
> You guy's love throwing around constitutions and rights and freedoms but yet you refuse to acknowledge the rights of employees to collective bargain for higher wages.You act like it's all made up by union propaganda.
> 
> All right I'm ready keep calling me names,that really gets the point across.


 
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You doubt because once again you are to blind to see or want the truth.


----------



## brian john

> You guy's love throwing around constitutions and rights and freedoms but yet you refuse to acknowledge the rights of employees to collective bargain for higher wages.You act like it's all made up by union propaganda.
> 
> .


Not at all, workers have the right to collective bargain, BUT it needs to be a fair playing field.


BUT do not try to tell me that is in the Constitution?


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> In my area first off I think there should be a progressive scale from year 5 (when the apprentice GET'S a license) to year 8 or 9, with required test and classes.
> 
> 30-40 an hour
> One week minimum vacation
> matching the government holidays
> decent health care, equivalent to Blue Cross Blue Shield high option or what the IBEW offers.


That sounds reasonable.But what's the scale.Union/P.W. scale,more,less.

Do you really think the vast majority of open shop contractors would agree to a pay scale?let alone good coverage like blue cross blue shield.

Because that was my question,what do OPEN shops think is a fair wage.Your set up is much closer to a unions progressions.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Not at all, workers have the right to collective bargain, BUT it needs to be a fair playing field.
> 
> 
> BUT do not try to tell me that is in the Constitution?



It's more then fair.It's actually stacked in the employers favor,despite what the anti's would have you believe.No it's not in the constitution but neither is the Employers false beliefs that they get to make ALL the rules.


----------



## brian john

> .
> 
> All right I'm ready keep calling me names,that really gets the point across.


 
I did not call you a name out of some misguided attitude, I called you a DOLT as a compliment, because surely you are truley worse that a dolt.:whistling2::no::blink: I mean NO ONE can be a narrow minded as you appear. I attempt to see the workers side I see nothing that suggest you see any point in management?

Oh well off to work, you working today?


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> That sounds reasonable.But what's the scale.Union/P.W. scale,more,less.
> 
> Do you really think the vast majority of open shop contractors would agree to a pay scale?let alone good coverage like blue cross blue shield.
> 
> Because that was my question,what do OPEN shops think is a fair wage.Your set up is much closer to a unions progressions.


 
SOME of the open shops I work for pay scale or close and very good health care, that is how they retain workers in this market. But DC is generally a workers market (not at present).

The shops that pay less that this have some sorry workers and make what they should, I would be hard put to pay some of those workers more that the 25.00-30.00 they make, they all (I THINK) get some form of health care.

PLUS as I noted this is DC, many of their wives work for the feds and have excellent plans.

scale is 36.50 or close (I really never look) Most of my men make over scale


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Obviously we have different views on workers and management and on this it appears we will never agree, but the real issue of this post is the IBEW.
> 
> 
> *truth*
> 
> 
> So thee simple questions, no bashing the press, no bashing open shops, no bashing management, just answer the questions honestly.
> 
> 
> Is there an issue with the public perception of Unions?
> 
> Should Unions and the IBEW in particular do anything different to change this perception?
> 
> If they attempt to rescue themselves what should they do?
> 
> For me it makes little or no difference if the union falls flat on it's face or not. My company, a union shop does quite well, we have a niche in the market place and are respected by union and open shops (25% of my customers). I do feel that most workers will benefit when they are members of a local, just for portability of benefits if nothing else. But my experience with the bad element of the local from my first year in the trade to today has always made me wonder why these trouble makers are tolerated.



I myself from the beginning of the thread acknowledged the issues that need to be addressed in our union.But it didn't stop anyone from attacking me,now did it.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Because that was my question,what do OPEN shops think is a fair wage.Your set up is much closer to a unions progressions.


 
Slick, before anyone can have a meaningful discussion with you about labor costs, you need to educate yourself on how a business works.

Again, why aren't you and your brothers buying, or starting your own businesses?

We know the answer, and so do you.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> I myself from the beginning of the thread acknowledged the issues that need to be addressed in our union.But it didn't stop anyone from attacking me,now did it.


 
Of course not you make such a fine target, I really do not remember you defending management. But if you have the time answer the questions PLEASE.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> I did not call you a name out of some misguided attitude, I called you a DOLT as a compliment, because surely you are truley worse that a dolt.:whistling2::no::blink: I mean NO ONE can be a narrow minded as you appear. I attempt to see the workers side I see nothing that suggest you see any point in management?
> 
> Oh well off to work, you working today?



Nope,not working as an electrician recovering from shoulder surgery.But I did get a part time job t help pass the time.

Brian John keep calling me names that really gets the point across.Your so smart.Dolt,that was a good one,it really backed your argument up.Your so right,I apologize I'm so wrong.

It was the dolt comment that proved it all.


----------



## slickvic277

brian john said:


> Of course not you make such a fine target, I really do not remember you defending management. But if you have the time answer the questions PLEASE.



Defending management,no. But addressing a lot of the issues that management has with the IBEW I did.On page 1 of the thread.You actually agreed with them,go check for yourself.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Slick, before anyone can have a meaningful discussion with you about labor costs, you need to educate yourself on how a business works.
> 
> Again, why aren't you and your brothers buying, or starting your own businesses?
> 
> We know the answer, and so do you.


The vast majority of my locals contractors our from with in the membership.

Really our "conversation" is really a moot point.I mean,aren't you hiring illegal aliens anyway.

Whats the going rate for an undocumented worker these days?5,6,7 dollars an hour.


----------



## slickvic277

There's gotta be at lease one guy willing to answer my question(s).

Anyone?


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Really our "conversation" is really a moot point.I mean,aren't you hiring illegal aliens anyway.


Please post where I stated that I hire Illegal aliens.

This is why you are picked on, like you stated.

You're a young guy, uneducated in the ways of business, but who thinks he knows it all.

You have much to learn, more than you realize.

If I was the IBEW, I would do my best to limit folks like you spouting crap, and educate you on the employers issues. The crap you spout is exactly the same crap that the teamsters, steel workers, government workers, UAW all spout.

If the IBEW wants to seperate themselves from the thug Unions, and wants to repair their image to the public, they should get rid of know-it-alls like yourself. You're not doing the IBEW any good with your rhetoric.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> There's gotta be at lease one guy willing to answer my question(s).
> 
> Anyone?


 
Actually it has been answered, you refuse to accept the answer.


Markets control wages.

An electrician roping homes, cannot get paid $72/hr.

If you don't think so, START YOUR OWN BUSINESS.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Please post where I stated that I hire Illegal aliens.
> 
> This is why you are picked on, like you stated.
> 
> You're a young guy, uneducated in the ways of business, but who thinks he knows it all.
> 
> You have much to learn, more than you realize.
> 
> If I was the IBEW, I would do my best to limit folks like you spouting crap, and educate you on the employers issues. The crap you spout is exactly the same crap that the teamsters, steel workers, government workers, UAW all spout.
> 
> If the IBEW wants to seperate themselves from the thug Unions, and wants to repair their image to the public, they should get rid of know-it-alls like yourself. You're not doing the IBEW any good with your rhetoric.


No you never stated that you did, but your defense of them and your "business" attitude suggests that you do.Picked on,I don't see it that way.Just being called names by people who cannot put together an answer or an argument.

I never claimed to be a know-it-all.Go back in the thread it seems that you come off as a know it all and for those that don't agree,there all brain washed....


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Actually it has been answered, you refuse to accept the answer.
> 
> 
> Markets control wages.
> 
> An electrician roping homes, cannot get paid $72/hr.
> 
> If you don't think so, START YOUR OWN BUSINESS.



NO SH*T!!!

That was not my question.My question was"The average comm/ind. electrician with 5-6 years experience".and NO my question was not answered!

But I'll tell you one thing,a guy roping homes should be making more then 12 bucks a hour.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Obviously we have different views on workers and management and on this it appears we will never agree, but the real issue of this post is the IBEW.
> 
> 
> *truth*
> 
> 
> So thee simple questions, no bashing the press, no bashing open shops, no bashing management, just answer the questions honestly.
> 
> 
> Is there an issue with the public perception of Unions?
> 
> *Sometimes. Many people do not understand unions, how they operate, what they do, or why they're good for workers, mainly because all of their information comes from the mainstream media, and the media only covers the negative aspects.*
> 
> Should Unions and the IBEW in particular do anything different to change this perception?
> 
> *A public awareness campaign might help. If they could get the media to carry it.*
> 
> If they attempt to rescue themselves what should they do?
> 
> *Other than legislative action, there isn't much. Not that I want it to, but what needs to happen is America needs to fall into the depression it so rightfully deserves. Americans are still too complacent and uninvolved. Their flat-screen HDTV sits on the wall and all is right with the world. (Their world.) They're spending more time at work (on salary) they're asked to take wage consessions to "compete in this global marketplace" jobs are being shipped overseas yet their parent corporation is posting recordmaking profits, even during this recession... The neighbor's houses are foreclosing and very few think about doing anything about it. We need to rekindle the labor movement.*
> 
> *What's happening in the IBEW isn't unique, it's as much a victim to the corporate campaign as all other labor, organized or not. Labor is being attacked from all sides and all angles. *
> 
> For me it makes little or no difference if the union falls flat on it's face or not. My company, a union shop does quite well, we have a niche in the market place and are respected by union and open shops (25% of my customers). I do feel that most workers will benefit when they are members of a local, just for portability of benefits if nothing else. But my experience with the bad element of the local from my first year in the trade to today has always made me wonder why these trouble makers are tolerated.


*The construction industry in general has always attracted more than it's fair share of antisocial deadbeats. It's more prevalent in some places than others. Being a sworn, dues-paying member of a union requires that the union protect it's members. That doesn't mean it has to shelter the misfits for eternity, but cooperation in the form of proper documentation of transgressions from an upstanding contractor is vital to rooting out the cylinders that aren't firing.*


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Actually it has been answered, you refuse to accept the answer.
> 
> 
> Markets control wages.
> 
> An electrician roping homes, cannot get paid $72/hr.
> 
> If you don't think so, START YOUR OWN BUSINESS.



Hey if I start my own business does that mean I can do all the side work I want to?

This is your rational,isn't it?


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> But I'll tell you one thing,a guy roping homes should be making more then 12 bucks a hour.


So, if you are a business owner, and you bid these all day long, how much should he get paid?

Put your neck out here.

Give us an answer.


----------



## oldman

to answer slicks question...in my area, A- JW wages are about $40-50/hr in the pocket and $30-40 in benefits...totaling between $70-85/hr total package (depends on the county)...PW is the same....

the reality is, a livable wage in this area is $30-40/hr not including benefits...you can survive nicely on a total package of $40-50/hr....

but, that number is difficult to get in many markets, simply because if you attempt to invoice $125+/hr/man, you will face customer pushback...this could be resolved if everyone were union and contractors didn't cut their own throats with some arbitrarily low hourly rate...

but I digress...
right now, there are hundreds of out of work IBEW men willing to work non-union for $20-25/hr w/ no benefits throughout northern NJ...

so, it's a tough question to peg, since there are many variables...but there you go...

edit to add - this $ is for a productive man 5+yrs as a JW who doesn't need a babysitter....a 1st yr JW (who would have about 5 yrs total experience) would in reality be in the $20-25 range...

but I know 15 yr JW's who are no more useful than a 1st yr JW....


----------



## slickvic277

oldman said:


> to answer slicks question...in my area, A- JW wages are about $40-50/hr in the pocket and $30-40 in benefits...totaling between $70-85/hr total package (depends on the county)...PW is the same....
> 
> the reality is, a livable wage in this area is $30-40/hr not including benefits...you can survive nicely on a total package of $40-50/hr....
> 
> but, that number is difficult to get in many markets, simply because if you attempt to invoice $125+/hr/man, you will face customer pushback...this could be resolved if everyone were union and contractors didn't cut their own throats with some arbitrarily low hourly rate...
> 
> but I digress...
> right now, there are hundreds of out of work IBEW men willing to work non-union for $20-25/hr w/ no benefits throughout northern NJ...
> 
> so, it's a tough question to peg, since there are many variables...but there you go...



At lease you made an attempt to kind of answer my question.But your stereo typing a bit.I bet there's more out of work "house ropers" then IBEW electricans.But since were organized and documented it's easier to pull the numbers out.And guy's willing to work for less our a victim of 2 things,1 the economy and 2,not being prepared.There's a whole host of union trades men living outside there means but thats a whole other topic all together.

It is a tough question to answer but I'm just looking for one example with dollars and cents.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> In my area first off I think there should be a progressive scale from year 5 (when the apprentice GET'S a license) to year 8 or 9, with required test and classes.




You want a 10-year apprenticeship? 



> 30-40 an hour
> One week minimum vacation




ONE week a year off? That's mighty white of you... 



> matching the government holidays
> decent health care, equivalent to Blue Cross Blue Shield high option or what the IBEW offers.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> So, if you are a business owner, and you bid these all day long, how much should he get paid?
> 
> Put your neck out here.
> 
> Give us an answer.



I don't bid on home roping,but this is what I do know.A very,very large residential electrical outfit from the area(S.E. PA)Which I'm sure you know pays there top guy's $16 an hour with a very sh*tty insurance plan(aetna)
But the two owners own a plane!!!

To me this is not a FAIR wage.The average guy for them should be making at lease that,if not much more!

Just think of all the potential electricians out there reading this now knowing that most guy's are only willing to pay 12 bucks a hour.

Better off bagging groceries or waiting tables.


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Not at all, workers have the right to collective bargain, BUT it needs to be a fair playing field.


It is a fair playing field. If it wasn't, the contractors would file an unfair labor practice charge against the union.


----------



## oldman

slickvic277 said:


> At lease you made an attempt to kind of answer my question.But your stereo typing a bit.I bet there's more out of work "house ropers" then IBEW electricans.But since were organized and documented it's easier to pull the numbers out.And guy's willing to work for less our a victim of 2 things,1 the economy and 2,not being prepared.There's a whole host of union trades men living outside there means but thats a whole other topic all together.
> 
> It is a tough question to answer but I'm just looking for one example with dollars and cents.


slick, now I agree with Brian...you are a Dolt...

i just gave you dollars and cents...and how am I stereotyping? I'm giving you information based on 20 yrs in this industry...from all sides...


----------



## LGLS

slickvic277 said:


> I don't bid on home roping,but this is what I do know.A very,very large residential electrical outfit from the area(S.E. PA)Which I'm sure you know pays there top guy's $16 an hour with a very sh*tty insurance plan(aetna)
> But the two owners own a plane!!!
> 
> To me this is not a FAIR wage.The average guy for them should be making at lease that,if not much more!
> 
> Just think of all the potential electricians out there reading this now knowing that most guy's are only willing to pay 12 bucks a hour.
> 
> Better off bagging groceries or waiting tables.


New residential, being what it is, isn't considered a lifelong career, more of a stepping stone. But for comparison's sake, back in the 80's when I roped houses union scale was 16.90 an hour + H&W.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> But the two owners own a plane!!!


And that plane they own, was built by hundreds of people, and possibly has parts built by Union labor somewhere,somehow.

There is upkeep on the plane, that requires employement of other workers.



Good for them.


----------



## oldman

FAIR is probably the worst word in the english language. 

Slick- are you pissed that they own a plane because you don't? Or because they have the audacity to earn a profit?

Look at it this way, if they are running 300 men (which I'm sure they were when things were booming) if they netted $2/man/hr, they made $600/hr. This is after overhead. should they pay everyone $1/hr more? $2/hr?

And what are they earning now? Nothing close to that I bet


----------



## Thomps

slickvic277 said:


> There's gotta be at lease one guy willing to answer my question(s).
> 
> Anyone?


 
Base Rate $22.00
Health benefits yes
R.S.P. yes.


that is as basic of a breakdown as you're going to get.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> But the two owners own a plane!!!


The owner of the company I work for has a jet and a couple of nice boats.

Good for him, he started out just like you and me, but instead of whining about how he was underpaid he got of his ass and stated a company. :thumbsup:


----------



## brian john

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> [/font][/color]
> 
> You want a 10-year apprenticeship? [/quorte]
> 5 yera apprenticeship with JW steps after.
> 
> [/font][/color]
> 
> ONE week a year off? That's mighty white of you...


Consdiering 90% of the local gets nothing it is above average and it is a minuimum, Thanks! For 6 years I got NOTHING as I started this business, never a full week till 10 years, first time I had 2 weeks I was in the hospital. So I'll take white as a compliment it (AT PRESENT) it is still the popular color to be in America. 

You prefer the European system with their higher unemployment.


----------



## brian john

oldman said:


> slick, now I agree with Brian...you are a Dolt...
> 
> ...


Did I say Dolt?....I meant LIGHTING BOLT. :no:


----------



## oldman

Oh. I meant Dolt.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> A CBA doesn't peg wages and benefits to a static % of profits. I've pointed out that during negotiations IF contractors make the claim that they cannot profit under the proposed terms of the CBA they would have to show not only show that, but explain why the local should make consessions to make it right for them. We ask for raises, and base that request on simple cost of living and other economic indicators, agreements reached by other trades. And we prove that...
> 
> More often than not, the actual increase in hourly wage request isn't challenged, most of the sticking points have to do with policy - working rules and apprentice acceptance ratios.


Thank you for answering....now...are the wages based on average cost of liveing in the area? or? Just trying to get a sense of how they are factored.

Alot of the comments seem to disagree that sell price of jobs are based on market acceptance. Perhaps not when it comes to large jobs that the union in more noted to doing. But, in the small job and service industry (BTW, does the union handle any of these?) it is very much controlled by the public. And in doing so...greatly affects the amount able to be paid to employees.

In every shop I have worked for...the pay was very acceptable, and the last 10 years that I was working for others the insurance was too. Comparable to unions?...very doubtful...but then again...the money available to finance more was not gainable.


----------



## oldman

to be fair, Local 3 did make a pretty big concession recently in order to keep members working...

the change from 7 hr day to 8 hour day is a big cost savings to the end user...i'm not joking...


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Consdiering 90% of the local gets nothing it is above average and it is a minuimum, Thanks! For 6 years I got NOTHING as I started this business, never a full week till 10 years, first time I had 2 weeks I was in the hospital. So I'll take white as a compliment it (AT PRESENT) it is still the popular color to be in America.
> 
> You prefer the European system with their higher unemployment.


How would working everyone for 10 years with no vacations (like you) lead to lower unemployment? The 4 weeks a JW get off, coupled with the vacations of 12 others directly necessitate the employment of JW #13. 

Now mind you I do not know how your vacation routine is financially implemented, here a set contribution is made to every members fund on a per-hour worked basis, to allow for the payment of vacation pay from your own fund, not the contractor. (You might not be working for that contractor come vacation time.) Same structure for holiday pay. 

So while many call this paid vacations, it isn't, it's pre-paid vacations and you pay yourself. Or you can decline the vacation check, sent automatically by the union, and let it ride in your funds, and withdraw up to a year's worth of vacation and holiday pay for something nice, or in an emergency...

The plan works for employers because it follows the no work = no pay pattern. So when an employee is off for 2 weeks, it doesn't cost you anything during those 2 weeks. Any member can take 2 weeks in the summer months, with the rest of their time outside of the summer months, except when special permission is granted by the shop super. 

Though it's all fine and good you CHOSE to take no time off during the formation of your shop, why in Gods name do you expect employees to make that same sacrafice? 

And what kind of a moronic IDIOT would you think is attracted to those archaic, plantation mentality terms, that would persue electrical work as a career? What we do certianly is not rocket science, but it does require a certian degree of intelligence, good working habits, sharp thinking, and passing a few basic tests... and drug tests. 

No wonder many of you bemoan the hordes of heavy drinkers and drug users in the industry, you're the ones hiring them! 

What do you think is going to happen when (and if?) the economy picks up and there is competition for hiring decent, law abiding, trustworthy, intelligent people? Think "no vacations for ten years" and "used to reach JW pay after 4 years of steady employment and sucessful completion of apprenticeship program, but now it takes 5 years plus another 5 years" is going to attract the kind of employee you'd want to hire?

I don't know what's typical in your neck of the woods, but here, teachers work 182 days. Cops get 6 weeks a year off. Bottom of the rung average business suits START with 2 weeks first year, usually a week added every year until it's 5 or more depending on the company. The post office... I think they have a better deal than teachers.


----------



## user4818

oldman said:


> to be fair, Local 3 did make a pretty big concession recently in order to keep members working...
> 
> the change from 7 hr day to 8 hour day is a big cost savings to the end user...i'm not joking...


Yet the PLA completely excludes non-union companies from doing any of the gov't work.


----------



## oldman

Peter D said:


> Yet the PLA completely excludes non-union companies from doing any of the gov't work.


well:whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> to be fair, Local 3 did make a pretty big concession recently in order to keep members working...
> 
> the change from 7 hr day to 8 hour day is a big cost savings to the end user...i'm not joking...


It is, but this applies only to Project Labor Agreements. There are rumors this will be requested across the board in the upcoming contract. 

Whether this puts members back to work or not remains to be seen. I don't think it will. Currectly we work a 7 hour day, the 8th hour is time and a half BUT the H&W is discounted so as to make one hour overtime only slightly higher in cost to the contractor. Still, few contractors work the 8th hour on any kind of regular basis. Making that 8th hour standard would cause more unemployment in my mind, as one extra manhour worked by everyone = less of a need for people.


----------



## electricmanscott

Bob Badger said:


> The owner of the company I work for has a jet and a couple of nice boats.
> 
> Good for him, he started out just like you and me, but instead of whining about how he was underpaid he got of his ass and stated a company. :thumbsup:


What a fool. :blink:

With all the back and forth in this thread I just can't get past the fact that these people feel they are owed everything. Where does this sense of entitlement come form? I really don't get it.


----------



## LGLS

Shado said:


> Thank you for answering....now...are the wages based on average cost of liveing in the area? or? Just trying to get a sense of how they are factored.


I think you would have to get in a time machine and look at how the initial wages were established for the first CBA written, then follow the progression from there.

Factors like cost of living are taken into account, but no one factor weighs very heavily in an actual final figure. I'm not counting on any raises in our next contract, and if it remains stagnant I'll vote for it. Besides, one dollar puts us on the $50.00 an hour mark and you know THAT is gonna make headlines. Don't need that in this economy. So I'm all right if we stay put, maybe bump the apprentices up a little since our lag behind many other jurisdictions.



> Alot of the comments seem to disagree that sell price of jobs are based on market acceptance. Perhaps not when it comes to large jobs that the union in more noted to doing.


You know what's funny? Tell a customer the cost of copper has tripled and they pay it. Tell a customer labor rates went up and everyone goes ballistic. When you pay more for copper, the commidities brokers, banks, and investors get wealthier, though they created nothing, and that seems to be jake... gut God help the working stiff who needs more income bacause his costs went up too.. 

Why is that?


> But, in the small job and service industry (BTW, does the union handle any of these?) it is very much controlled by the public. And in doing so...greatly affects the amount able to be paid to employees.
> 
> In every shop I have worked for...the pay was very acceptable, and the last 10 years that I was working for others the insurance was too. Comparable to unions?...very doubtful...but then again...the money available to finance more was not gainable.


Let's look at a small work job like 480Sparky's Dollar Tree... DO you think if every contractor paid every employee (and kept the ratios) prevailing rate that Dollar Tree wouldn't pay whatever additional costs were necessary? 

The reason smaller shops have to pay what they do is because even in better times, that market is saturated with thousands of independants. Many of whom went out on their own BECAUSE the small to medium shops who once employed them had a top pay that was not enough for a man to support his family with any kind of decenct lifestyle. 

We do small work, like storefronts, but the marketshare is small. Mostly national chains and very high-end retailers. The basic bodegas and mom & pops are, I kid you not, wired with zip cord, extention cords, and from creative use of existing circuits.


----------



## brian john

> The reason smaller shops have to pay what they do is because even in better times, that market is saturated with thousands of independants. Many of whom went out on their own BECAUSE the small to medium shops who once employed them had a top pay that was not enough for a man to support his family with any kind of decenct lifestyle.
> .



Your lack understanding what drives a man to get ahead in the world amazes me. I am sure your statements, that seem that of someone with no drive are not reflected in you work ethic. I have read you post in the electrical sections and you are one of the better posters, BUT here you truly come across as a slacker that has no clue and needs protection from "THE MAN"


----------



## miller_elex

brian john said:


> In my area first off I think there should be a progressive scale from year 5 (when the apprentice GET'S a license) to year 8 or 9, with required test and classes.
> 
> 30-40 an hour
> One week minimum vacation
> matching the government holidays
> decent health care, equivalent to Blue Cross Blue Shield high option or what the IBEW offers.


That sounds like a SUPERIOR package, (Really)

even though I have yet to finish my first year of the pre-apprenticeship.


----------



## miller_elex

Dnkldorf said:


> Again, why aren't you and your brothers buying, or starting your own businesses?


Because my folks were in business, and I never saw them growing up. Sure, they've got lots of bucks, but I am long gone from their lives, they probably wonder where I am, when they stop thinking about work once every week or two.

I'd never put anyone through that. The time it takes to run a successful business runs in eight and ninety hour weeks. What they didn't delegate at work, they delegated to me at home. Even after I left home, my folks were the biggest flakes and no-shows when it came to family get-togethers because business came first.

I know what business is about, been there, been through the bad side when the folks lost everything but the shirts on our backs too.


Business is for people who enjoy playing god. Someone as humble as myself needs to collude with others such as myself to avoid becoming the next victims of business as we know it.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> I know what business is about, been there, been through the bad side when the folks lost everything but the shirts on our backs too.
> 
> 
> Business is for people who enjoy playing god. Someone as humble as myself needs to collude with others such as myself to avoid becoming the next victims of business as we know it.


I NEVER missed my kids games, shows, school events and took my kids to work with me on many occasions, we went camping, skiing, fishing and all matters of other things. My wife has her own business and my kids (3 of the 4) would like to run their own businesses. 

I worked hard and missed some vacations over the years BUT never missed doing with my kids.

All about time management, it is doable but one has to set priorities..


----------



## LGLS

brian john said:


> Your lack understanding what drives a man to get ahead in the world amazes me. I am sure your statements, that seem that of someone with no drive are not reflected in you work ethic. I have read you post in the electrical sections and you are one of the better posters, BUT here you truly come across as a slacker that has no clue and needs protection from "THE MAN"


Well Brian I don't know how to respond... 

All around I see electricians. Some mediocre, some acceptable, some outstanding, none who would rather wile the hours away hiding and avoiding work... working for what amounts to the least possible wages.

Unfortunately, getting ahead in the world, especially lately, amounts to pure dishonesty and stepping on others to get there. There are too many people looking to get rich... quickly, easily, with very little effort, by lying, cheating, stealing, whatever it takes.

Now THERE'S an "entitlement mentality" you can sink your teeth into.


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Yet the PLA completely excludes non-union companies from doing any of the gov't work.


Yes it does.


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> Business is for people who enjoy playing god. Someone as humble as myself needs to collude with others such as myself to avoid becoming the next victims of business as we know it.


... And enjoy playing god they do. You can see it on this board. Nobody questions their electric bill... it is what it is. Nobody questions their supply house's prices, it is what it is... nobody questions what the going rates are for office or warehouse space... or a new van, but god for fkn bid somebody suggests a 3rd year apprentice IS worth X.XX or a jouryman is worth Y.YY... no...

They want to control wages because flexibility with employee wages are what separates the men from the boys- Tell a company you MUST pay someone something and suddenly thay have lost their safety net and are out of their comfort zone.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> .Nobody questions their electric bill... it is what it is.


You live in a different world, most people do complain about their bill and they do try to reduce it in many ways.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nobody questions their supply house's prices, it is what it is...


Again you live in a different world, we always try to negotiate lower prices from the supply house. We make them compete with each other.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> nobody questions what the going rates are for office or warehouse space...


Again you live in a different world, price is always a consideration in choosing rental space.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> or a new van,


So you walk in and pay whatever they ask with no negotiation, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> but god for fkn bid somebody suggests a 3rd year apprentice IS worth X.XX or a jouryman is worth Y.YY... no...


God forbid that they ask more than what they are worth.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> They want to control wages because flexibility with employee wages are what separates the men from the boys-


They want to control wages for the same reason they want to control the price of everything they spend money on. Controlling money is one of the important things in running a businesses.

You really are a putz.


----------



## Southeast Power

I have found quite a bit of security knowing exactly what my labor cost will be when quoting work.
If I need 2,3 5, or even 20 electricians, I know what my cost will be.
I have also found that if you give well trained electricians the proper tools, materials, instruction and supervision, high moral and very productive work magically happens.
I have also noticed that productivity and moral nosedives with inadequate tools, amateur supervision and poorly scheduled material deliveries.

In both cases, I look at supervision as the fulcrum not the labor.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> I have found quite a bit of security knowing exactly what my labor cost will be when quoting work.
> If I need 2,3 5, or even 20 electricians, I know what my cost will be.


Why in the world would you think that is diffrent for union guys than non-union guys.:blink:

We know our costs, we have to know our costs. We could not do business without knowing our costs.




> I have also found that if you give well trained electricians the proper tools, materials, instruction and supervision, high moral and very productive work magically happens.


Sure does, come on up and I can show you.

There is not a single tool the shop lacks, or would not get if needed. It is part of doing businesses.

We have all the 'big toys'.

We also have training going on each week, there are the state approved apprentice classes and often there are other classes like OSHA ten, confined space etc.

You guys have to stop thinking all non-union shops are what the hall says they are or like the worsts ones you have seen.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> That sounds like a SUPERIOR package, (Really)
> 
> even though I have yet to finish my first year of the pre-apprenticeship.


It is driven by the local market as it should be, maybe a bit above average for some companies. But to retain your men you have to give them a bit more that the other guy.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Why in the world would you think that is diffrent for union guys than non-union guys.:blink:
> 
> We know our costs, we have to know our costs. We could not do business without knowing our costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure does, come on up and I can show you.
> 
> There is not a single tool the shop lacks, or would not get if needed. It is part of doing businesses.
> 
> We have all the 'big toys'.
> 
> We also have training going on each week, there are the state approved apprentice classes and often there are other classes like OSHA ten, confined space etc.
> 
> You guys have to stop thinking all non-union shops are what the hall says they are or like the worsts ones you have seen.


Kinda of defensive this morning Bob.

Did I miss something?

What is all the Wee stuff about?


----------



## oldman

jrannis said:


> I have found quite a bit of security knowing exactly what my labor cost will be when quoting work.
> If I need 2,3 5, or even 20 electricians, I know what my cost will be.
> I have also found that if you give well trained electricians the proper tools, materials, instruction and supervision, high moral and very productive work magically happens.
> I have also noticed that productivity and moral nosedives with inadequate tools, amateur supervision and poorly scheduled material deliveries.
> 
> In both cases, I look at supervision as the fulcrum not the labor.


i agree with Bob, this is pure BS....the only way to know 'exactly' what your labor will cost is if you are paying a commission or piecework...if you are paying hourly, there is no difference between knowing the guy costs you $40/hr or $90/hr....it's a bunk argument...

there are also, many merit shops with well-trained, yada, yada, yada...

and lastly, you're union scale in Florida is probably less than what Bob makes, and I'm pretty sure it's less than what we pay...now it may be more than non-union resi guys make in your neck of the woods, but I want you to think for one second about the following:

Bid a job for 100 hrs, and the project takes 110 hrs...at your rate of $35 (+/-) total package you go over by $350(+/-)

at NJ or NY rate of $80+/hr, you go over by $800...

yes granted, 10% is 10%...but in real dollars, you better be able to count on your labor at the higher rate...

and that brings us back to the crux of the issue...forget the labor rate, that's not the critical factor...it's the productivity for that rate...not some arbitrary, "I want you to work faster", productivity...but, "we won this project by bidding the service at 100 man hours, please don't drag it into 110 man hours, the margin just isn't there" productivity...


----------



## Southeast Power

oldman said:


> i agree with Bob, this is pure BS....the only way to know 'exactly' what your labor will cost is if you are paying a commission or piecework...if you are paying hourly, there is no difference between knowing the guy costs you $40/hr or $90/hr....it's a bunk argument...
> 
> there are also, many merit shops with well-trained, yada, yada, yada...
> 
> and lastly, you're union scale in Florida is probably less than what Bob makes, and I'm pretty sure it's less than what we pay...now it may be more than non-union resi guys make in your neck of the woods, but I want you to think for one second about the following:
> 
> Bid a job for 100 hrs, and the project takes 110 hrs...at your rate of $35 (+/-) total package you go over by $350(+/-)
> 
> at NJ or NY rate of $80+/hr, you go over by $800...
> 
> yes granted, 10% is 10%...but in real dollars, you better be able to count on your labor at the higher rate...
> 
> and that brings us back to the crux of the issue...forget the labor rate, that's not the critical factor...it's the productivity for that rate...not some arbitrary, "I want you to work faster", productivity...but, "we won this project by bidding the service at 100 man hours, please don't drag it into 110 man hours, the margin just isn't there" productivity...



What was all that about??

I guess you missed my comment about supervision.:whistling2:


----------



## oldman

jrannis said:


> What was all that about??
> 
> I guess you missed my comment about supervision.:whistling2:


i saw it...is that your get out of jail free card?

additionally, when we bid union up here, if we are pulling from the hall, we don't know our 'exact' cost of labor...because there is no guarantee we'll get any apprentices...so, we have to bid at all JW wages, and it's a bonus to us if we get apprentices...


----------



## Southeast Power

oldman said:


> i saw it...is that your get out of jail free card?
> 
> additionally, when we bid union up here, if we are pulling from the hall, we don't know our 'exact' cost of labor...because there is no guarantee we'll get any apprentices...so, we have to bid at all JW wages, and it's a bonus to us if we get apprentices...



Usually people are not so quick to admit they have a double breasted shop

Please provide you get out of jail card


----------



## oldman

jrannis said:


> Usually people are not so quick to admit they have a double breasted shop
> 
> Please provide you get out of jail card


yeah well...i've already posted our setup....we aren't double breasted...so we violate no laws...either state or IBEW...

still doesn't change the fact that you are talking out of your a$$...:laughing:


----------



## Southeast Power

oldman said:


> yeah well...i've already posted our setup....we aren't double breasted...so we violate no laws...either state or IBEW...
> 
> still doesn't change the fact that you are talking out of your a$$...:laughing:


Come closer, I have something to whisper to you.:thumbup:


----------



## oldman

jrannis said:


> Come closer, I have something to whisper to you.:thumbup:


nah, i'm not suffering from electrical shock.....:laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> i saw it...is that your get out of jail free card?
> 
> additionally, when we bid union up here, if we are pulling from the hall, we don't know our 'exact' cost of labor...because there is no guarantee we'll get any apprentices...so, we have to bid at all JW wages, and it's a bonus to us if we get apprentices...


 
Sounds like a real fun way to run a business.:thumbsup:

"I bid on jobs, but I don't know what my costs are......":001_huh:


----------



## oldman

480sparky said:


> Sounds like a real fun way to run a business.:thumbsup:
> 
> "I bid on jobs, but I don't know what my costs are......":001_huh:


it's the truth.....bid a PW project non-union and you know that you will have a certain ratio...you actually know your labor costs...what you don't know for sure is your labor productivity...

bid the same job union, pulling from the hall, and you don't know your ratio...or your labor productivity...

so, in the real world, which one is more likely to yield a successful project?


----------



## minibdr

Doesn't bob work as a maintenance person? How does this in anyway make him any kind of an authority on construction? It doesn`t. I said it before and I~ll say it again I agree with bob that a man gets paid what he is worth. Why does everybody get upset because there is a union scale that sets a bar for the lowest scale that a man can be paid? I have in my career always been paid above the scale set because I have shown to be worth the price I set. Just seems to me that because I make a good living doing electrical work and don`t have to kill myself with overtime hours or unsafe labor practices that certain people here get mad. Anyday bob start a thread and I will post this weeks paystub.You take pride in being underpaid and take aim at the guys that aren`t.Why is that? Couldn`t cut it with the big boys?


----------



## B4T

minibdr said:


> Doesn't bob work as a maintenance person? How does this in anyway make him any kind of an authority on construction? It doesn`t.


 
Yea.. thats right, Bob changes lamps and ballasts all day and knows nothing about being a *real* electrician like them big boys in the UNION. :blink:


----------



## 480sparky

oldman said:


> it's the truth.....bid a PW project non-union and you know that you will have a certain ratio...you actually know your labor costs...what you don't know for sure is your labor productivity...
> 
> bid the same job union, pulling from the hall, and you don't know your ratio...or your labor productivity...
> 
> so, in the real world, which one is more likely to yield a successful project?


Yet another exampt of Gestapo-style tactics, forcing a business owner to alter his operation to please certain people because.......... because........... um............. well, because they think they're worth more money.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Kinda of defensive this morning Bob.
> 
> Did I miss something?
> 
> What is all the Wee stuff about?


Not defensive at all, just answering BS with some facts.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

oldman said:


> nah, i'm not suffering from electrical shock.....:laughing:


:laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

minibdr said:


> Doesn't bob work as a maintenance person? How does this in anyway make him any kind of an authority on construction?


I have worked in many aspects of the trade, and I challenge you to find a post where I claimed to be an expert at anything.

BUT, no one has to be an expert to see LGLS makes a lot of crap up ...... 'no one disputes their bills' really come on,


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Not defensive at all, just answering BS with some facts.:thumbsup:



OK ill bite,

What was the BS part??


----------



## oldman

minibdr said:


> ........ I~ll say it again I agree with bob that *a man gets paid what he is worth*. Why does everybody get upset because there is a union scale that *sets a bar for the lowest scale that a man can be paid*? .......


am i the only one that sees that the above statement is a contradiction?


----------



## B4T

oldman said:


> am i the only one that sees that the above statement is a contradiction?


You have to understand Minibdr is a very confused individual :thumbsup:

He hears voices in his head that say giant rats are after him :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

jrannis said:


> Come closer, I have something to whisper to you!


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


----------



## user4818

Why is Minibdr so desperate to post one of his pay stubs? As if the amount of money you make proves the value of a man's worth? I am infinitely more impressed by a man who runs into a burning building to rescue someone trapped, or a soldier on the battlefield who runs through a hail of bullets to help a fallen comrade than an electrician who makes a lot of money. 

Furthermore, constantly bragging about it proves a certain inadequacy in other parts of your life.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> OK ill bite,
> 
> What was the BS part??





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Nobody questions their electric bill... it is what it is.
> 
> Nobody questions their supply house's prices, it is what it is...
> 
> nobody questions what the going rates are for office or warehouse space...
> 
> or a new van,


Take you're pick.:thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> I have in my career always been paid above the scale set because I have shown to be worth the price I set.


The price you set? I thought you were in the union. Isn't the price set by collective bargaining agreements? Or are you special? :laughing:

Oh, and for the record, and I may speak for others here - I could not care less what you make. It does not affect me nor does it affect anyone else. So stop bragging about it because NOBODY CARES! I guess nobody told you that bragging about your pay is bad decorum and only makes you look pompous and arrogant.


----------



## LGLS

quote=Bob Badger

You live in a different world, most people do complain about their bill and they do try to reduce it in many ways.

*Let's keep this in context. Sure, people complain about their electric bill, but they PAY IT nonetheless or the power is turned off. If you use less labor, you pay less for labor. But if a job requires 2500 manhours you will need to spend 2500 manhours there.*

Again you live in a different world, we always try to negotiate lower prices from the supply house. We make them compete with each other.

*Uh huh, but in the end you are going to pay enough for the supply house to operate, survive and profit, otherwise there is no reason for that supply house to exist. If the going rate for a layin is 45.00, you are not going to find them for 32.50 because your project is running on a tight budget. *

*BTW if you respond to this, the subject here isn't layins...*

Again you live in a different world, price is always a consideration in choosing rental space.

*You need Sq. Footage. You are gonna pay for it. You are going to call it overhead and assign a static number to it, at least until the rent and or taxes go up. *

*Even in a locale where there are tons of warehouses available, none of them are going to be free because whoever rents to you knows it has value to whoever needs it. *

*Right now Manhattan has a glut of office space available. Nobody's rent has been discounted. There may be temporary come-on offers, like switching from cable to the phone company, but in the end the full price kicks in. * 

So you walk in and pay whatever they ask with no negotiation, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.

*Of course you negotiate. But the best deal you're gopnna get is their lowest price in order to support the business, overhead, profit, and commission. Otherwise, like with the supply house there is no point to doing business. MAybe the van is a cherry, gives you years of trouble free service, maybe it's a clunker, you will not know until after iit's yours.*

They want to control wages for the same reason they want to control the price of everything they spend money on. Controlling money is one of the important things in running a businesses.

*But your examples of controlling price are an illusion - if your shop's electric rate increases you WILL pay it. Grudgingly, but pay it nonetheless. You will not go out and find a less expensive, cheaper utility, or tell all the electrons to work harder to make up for the higher expense, under a thinly veiled threat of job loss... *

You really are a putz. 

*Then why do you bother? *


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> i agree with Bob, this is pure BS....the only way to know 'exactly' what your labor will cost is if you are paying a commission or piecework...if you are paying hourly, there is no difference between knowing the guy costs you $40/hr or $90/hr....it's a bunk argument...


*AHHHH! THERE IT IS!*
*Oldman... if you bid it right you profit. If you don't, you don't. Isn't the "unknown," that is, not really knowing EXACTLY how long a task will take, part of that "risk" shop owners are so proud of stepping up to the plate and taking on?*

*But YOU seem to want there to be NO RISK in business - you want to orchestrate a labor force that is paid per piece only, meaning, whatever time figure you peg onto a task, it has to take that long, or less, if not, your pieceworker is left holding the bag... right?*

*I gotta ask, if job conditions cause a production delay would the pieceworker get to charge you for that delay? Forget it I think I know the answer.*

*Seems kind of wimpy of you to want to not simply minimize RISK to ensure profit, but instead pawn off that risk onto others. At the very least, you're attempting to take the contracting out of contracting. *

*If this is your practice, I really think you ought to stop calling yourself a contractor. You're more like a labor & tool leasing agency.*



> there are also, many merit shops with well-trained, yada, yada, yada...


I know I'm not blind. I realize a lot of the stigma referred to as lesser trained or knowledgable employees is really a symptom of the nonunion and merit shops propensity of putting employees on tasks they're not yet ready to handle on their own. I know it's not because they don't WANT to do a good job or do it right, it's usually because they don't know HOW to do it right. Because in all my years I have met only 10 or so electrical employees who really, really couldn't give a chit about that kind of thing. Everyone else simply wants to go to work, do their job with as few obstacles to production as possible, and make a decent living along the way.

This is why I cannot fathom all these accusations that calling JWs from your hall is literally a crapshoot... Obviously, some people are better at some things than others. We got guys that pipe like there's no tomorrow, turn electrical closets into works of art, and I know from experience nobody wants to show up to work and just dawdle all day. And BTW, of the 10 or so electricians I referred to that were content to dawdle all day, 4 of them were travellers back in the 90's when we were rocking the clock.

So maybe you're onto something here, maybe your local really does have a bunch of lazy slugs. Or maybe you're being a little too critical or just looking for some imperfections or expect every employee to be a superstar lest you brand them useless, or maybe it's a little bit of all those things. What I can say is even though all JWs are on an equal footing, they're still human beings and no 2 are ever going to be exactly alike in production or personality. 



> and lastly, you're union scale in Florida is probably less than what Bob makes, and I'm pretty sure it's less than what we pay...now it may be more than non-union resi guys make in your neck of the woods, but I want you to think for one second about the following:
> 
> Bid a job for 100 hrs, and the project takes 110 hrs...at your rate of $35 (+/-) total package you go over by $350(+/-)
> 
> at NJ or NY rate of $80+/hr, you go over by $800...
> 
> yes granted, 10% is 10%...but in real dollars, you better be able to count on your labor at the higher rate...
> 
> and that brings us back to the crux of the issue...forget the labor rate, that's not the critical factor...it's the productivity for that rate...not some arbitrary, "I want you to work faster", productivity...but, "we won this project by bidding the service at 100 man hours, please don't drag it into 110 man hours, the margin just isn't there" productivity...


Anybody can get a license, insurance, tools, and hire others. The ability to accurately assess a job and make money is what contracting is all about. 

Like I said above, you want to make the arrangement such that you take NO RISK AT ALL.. but I bet you still have YOUR eyes on that prize...


----------



## oldman

. Do you purposefully mislead? Or are you just that misinformed?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> quote=Bob Badger
> 
> You live in a different world, most people do complain about their bill and they do try to reduce it in many ways.
> 
> *Let's keep this in context. Sure, people complain about their electric bill, but they PAY IT nonetheless or the power is turned off. If you use less labor, you pay less for labor. But if a job requires 2500 manhours you will need to spend 2500 manhours there.*
> 
> Again you live in a different world, we always try to negotiate lower prices from the supply house. We make them compete with each other.
> 
> *Uh huh, but in the end you are going to pay enough for the supply house to operate, survive and profit, otherwise there is no reason for that supply house to exist. If the going rate for a layin is 45.00, you are not going to find them for 32.50 because your project is running on a tight budget. *
> 
> *BTW if you respond to this, the subject here isn't layins...*
> 
> Again you live in a different world, price is always a consideration in choosing rental space.
> 
> *You need Sq. Footage. You are gonna pay for it. You are going to call it overhead and assign a static number to it, at least until the rent and or taxes go up. *
> 
> *Even in a locale where there are tons of warehouses available, none of them are going to be free because whoever rents to you knows it has value to whoever needs it. *
> 
> *Right now Manhattan has a glut of office space available. Nobody's rent has been discounted. There may be temporary come-on offers, like switching from cable to the phone company, but in the end the full price kicks in. *
> 
> So you walk in and pay whatever they ask with no negotiation, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.
> 
> *Of course you negotiate. But the best deal you're gopnna get is their lowest price in order to support the business, overhead, profit, and commission. Otherwise, like with the supply house there is no point to doing business. MAybe the van is a cherry, gives you years of trouble free service, maybe it's a clunker, you will not know until after iit's yours.*
> 
> They want to control wages for the same reason they want to control the price of everything they spend money on. Controlling money is one of the important things in running a businesses.
> 
> *But your examples of controlling price are an illusion - if your shop's electric rate increases you WILL pay it. Grudgingly, but pay it nonetheless. You will not go out and find a less expensive, cheaper utility, or tell all the electrons to work harder to make up for the higher expense, under a thinly veiled threat of job loss... *


*

Spin away, we all recognize that you are out of touch with reality.*


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> . Do you purposefully mislead? Or are you just that misinformed?


I think you're better with false dilemmas than contracting...


----------



## oldman

You might be right. I have a low tolerance for BS and those who trade in it. Makes it hard to hire guys like yourself.


----------



## oldman

You might be right. I have a low tolerance for BS and those who trade in it. Makes it hard to hire guys like yourself.


----------



## minibdr

I will not stop bragging that IBEW men are paid better are better trained then the average rat. You be proud of what you are not and I`ll be proud of who I am.


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> I will not stop bragging that IBEW men are paid better are better trained then the average rat. You be proud of what you are not and I`ll be proud of who I am.


You're proud to be an ignoramus? :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> You might be right. I have a low tolerance for BS and those who trade in it. Makes it hard to hire guys like yourself.


Fine, I have a low tolerance for contractors who are afraid of risk and want guarantees because... face it, you're not very good at it are you. And blame your failures on everyone... except you of course, it's the union's fault that you suck.


----------



## Bob Badger

minibdr said:


> I will not stop bragging that IBEW men are paid better are better trained then the average rat. You be proud of what you are not and I`ll be proud of who I am.



:sleep1:


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Fine, I have a low tolerance for contractors who are afraid of risk and want guarantees because... face it, you're not very good at it are you. And blame your failures on everyone... except you of course, it's the union's fault that you suck.


Still just making stuff up. :thumbup:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> You're proud to be an ignoramus? :laughing:


You on vacation Peter, or unemployed again? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You on vacation Peter, or unemployed again? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


I'm self employed actually. But then again, you being factually accurate has never been something you care too much about.


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> I will not stop bragging that IBEW men are paid better are better trained then the average rat. You be proud of what you are not and I`ll be proud of who I am.


Please just go ahead and post your paycheck stub so we can stop hearing about it. 

Like I said, you must be making up for other inadequacies you have in your life. :whistling2:


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> I'm self employed actually. But then again, you being factually accurate has never been something you care too much about.


Ahhh no work. Unemployed. Thanks for clarifying. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Fine, I have a low tolerance for contractors who are afraid of risk and want guarantees because... face it, you're not very good at it are you. And blame your failures on everyone... except you of course, it's the union's fault that you suck.


Is that how you perceive things?

A little skewed. And incorrect.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ahhh no work. Unemployed. Thanks for clarifying. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Yep, still making stuff up. You know absolutely nothing.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Is that how you perceive things?
> 
> A little skewed. And incorrect.


Not skewed at all. You're "supposedly" a contractor. There are 300 in Local 3 do you see any of them posting on message boards all day? No, they don't have time they're engaged in the day to day business of... contracting. 

You (and Peter, and Bob) on the other hand... seem to have all the time in the world, day and night, to post here. You are therefore not contracting. Not even close.

Shills, that's more like it. Wannabees. Or if not that, very VERY small-time. Maybe not even part time...


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ahhh no work. Unemployed. Thanks for clarifying. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Well, I suppose I could join your "brothers" in the IBEW local here. It's only about almost 2 years of unemployment they're facing at the moment going through the books. So, I guess you're laughing at your "brothers" too. Interesting....


----------



## LGLS

Peter why reply twice to the same post?

1- You got too much time on your hands and...
2- I hit the nail on the head.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Peter why reply twice to the same post?
> 
> 1- You got too much time on your hands and...
> 2- I hit the nail on the head.


1- I was making 2 separate points
2- No, actually you missed the nail completely and smashed your thumb with the hammer. As I said you know nothing about me or my situation. Once again, you make assumptions that are completely wrong. I'm not unemployed nor am I collecting unemployment compensation. Underemployed, yes, unemployed, no. There's a difference between those, but, there's no sense debating it with you as you have your own warped ways of looking at things.


----------



## oldman

I am a small contractor. I spend 3/4" of my day on the road. Out of p
Boredom, I have a bad habit of posting on my blackberry while driving. 

Also, contrary to my posts here, we have some real good guys that don't need to be bird dogged. So, I have free time. Life is pretty good.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> I am a small contractor. I spend 3/4" of my day on the road. Out of p
> Boredom, I have a bad habit of posting on my blackberry while driving.
> 
> Also, contrary to my posts here, we have some real good guys that don't need to be bird dogged. So, I have free time. Life is pretty good.


 
Thank you for all that, but, I'm going to go with my instincts here and call you out as a BS artist, a liar, a shill, and there's nothing you can do about it. 

You are NOT a contractor, by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Thank you for all that, but, I'm going to go with my instincts here and call you out as a BS artist, a liar, a shill, and there's nothing you can do about it.
> 
> You are NOT a contractor, by any stretch of the imagination.


****. I better go change my underwear then


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You are NOT a contractor, by any stretch of the imagination.


I was unaware that you get to decide who and who is not a contractor, man you have head as big as NYC.


----------



## Southeast Power

Is a pieceworker a contractor?

I spoke to some guys that earned minimum wage plus piece work.

Is that how they usually get paid?


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Is a pieceworker a contractor?
> 
> I spoke to some guys that earned minimum wage plus piece work.
> 
> Is that how they usually get paid?


My understanding is they must be paid at least the minimum wage, anything beyond that is between the worker and the employer.


----------



## BuzzKill

Bob Badger said:


> My understanding is they must be paid at least the minimum wage, anything beyond that is between the worker and the employer.


 How about just getting rid of "minimum wages" and let the market set the price?


----------



## brian john

BuzzKill said:


> How about just getting rid of "minimum wages" and let the market set the price?


That will never happen.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> My understanding is they must be paid at least the minimum wage, anything beyond that is between the worker and the employer.




Piece work is a fine line.By law you cannot have an "employee" be a piece worker.The person must be hired as a "subcontractor" and as a subcontractor must have all the proper licensing and insurance(if needed).

Now,if a piece worker is under contract as a "true" sub contractor(as the letter of the law defines it) then the "employer" can pay only what the contract(pay-per-piece) states and the overtime law and minimum wage goes out the window.

Where it gets hairy is when the so-called "sub-contractor" claims that he is in fact an employee and is entitled to minimum wage and overtime.The criteria the courts use to decide this is,How much supervision is performed by the "employer",Is the "sub-contractor"(piece worker)performing the same duties as standard employees,How much control does the "employer" have over the day to day duties of the piece worker and is the contractor providing the majority of the tools.

There's other things taken in to account as well but these our some of the big things courts will look at to determine if a piece worker is a sub contractor or an employee.

If the courts rule that the piece worker is in fact an employee,then the employee is entitled to all back wages including overtime,reasonable legal fees including lawyers costs and liquid damages(if the court see's fit).


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You are NOT a contractor, by any stretch of the imagination.


I think that definition will be found only in your personal dictionary.


----------



## amptech

slickvic277 said:


> Piece work is a fine line.By law you cannot have an "employee" be a piece worker.The person must be hired as a "subcontractor" and as a subcontractor must have all the proper licensing and insurance(if needed).
> 
> Now,if a piece worker is under contract as a "true" sub contractor(as the letter of the law defines it) then the "employer" can pay only what the contract(pay-per-piece) states and the overtime law and minimum wage goes out the window.
> 
> Where it gets hairy is when the so-called "sub-contractor" claims that he is in fact an employee and is entitled to minimum wage and overtime.The criteria the courts use to decide this is,How much supervision is performed by the "employer",Is the "sub-contractor"(piece worker)performing the same duties as standard employees,How much control does the "employer" have over the day to day duties of the piece worker and is the contractor providing the majority of the tools.
> 
> There's other things taken in to account as well but these our some of the big things courts will look at to determine if a piece worker is a sub contractor or an employee.
> 
> If the courts rule that the piece worker is in fact an employee,then the employee is entitled to all back wages including overtime,reasonable legal fees including lawyers costs and liquid damages(if the court see's fit).


This is completely untrue, at least in Indiana. A set hourly wage, worker's comp coverage, unemployment insurance and 1/2 of SSI are all that is required to make someone a legal employee. If the employer offers incentive pay above that for "piece rate" or exceeding set production rates it is perfectly legal. Every manufacturer around here offers some sort of production compensation above hourly wages.
I worked for a shop for 3 years that paid every 2 weeks. If you were not late and worked the full 80 hour pay period you got another $1.50 per hour. Sadly, out of 16 employees, I was the only one who always got the "attendance bonus" on a regular basis. Scheduled vacation days didn't count against you and if you got the bonus in 20 or more pay periods the previous year the $1.50 was put on your vacation pay too.
By brother worked at the forge at Chrysler Corp making truck axles. He made a slightly reduced hourly rate than non-piece work guys plus piece rate for non-scrap axles. He and his partner made more than the tool and die skilled trade guys did, most years.


----------



## user4818

Shado said:


> I think that definition will be found only in your personal dictionary.



Don't pay his remarks any mind. He's just trolling.


----------



## slickvic277

amptech said:


> This is completely untrue, at least in Indiana. A set hourly wage, worker's comp coverage, unemployment insurance and 1/2 of SSI are all that is required to make someone a legal employee. If the employer offers incentive pay above that for "piece rate" or exceeding set production rates it is perfectly legal. Every manufacturer around here offers some sort of production compensation above hourly wages.
> I worked for a shop for 3 years that paid every 2 weeks. If you were not late and worked the full 80 hour pay period you got another $1.50 per hour. Sadly, out of 16 employees, I was the only one who always got the "attendance bonus" on a regular basis. Scheduled vacation days didn't count against you and if you got the bonus in 20 or more pay periods the previous year the $1.50 was put on your vacation pay too.
> By brother worked at the forge at Chrysler Corp making truck axles. He made a slightly reduced hourly rate than non-piece work guys plus piece rate for non-scrap axles. He and his partner made more than the tool and die skilled trade guys did, most years.



Of course incentive pay is legal.But it's on top of an hourly wage which by law is the minimum wage.My post is talking about hiring someone strictly as a piece worker with no hourly wage or the other requirements of employment hence the "sub contractor"title applied to a true piece worker.

What you described is incentive pay or bonus pay but not really "piece work" as described by labor law.


----------



## amptech

slickvic277 said:


> Of course incentive pay is legal.But it's on top of an hourly wage which by law is the minimum wage.My post is talking about hiring someone strictly as a piece worker with no hourly wage or the other requirements of employment hence the "sub contractor"title applied to a true piece worker.
> 
> What you described is incentive pay or bonus pay but not really "piece work" as described by labor law.


My misunderstanding then. I didn't see a post where anyone was suggesting a straight piece-work arrangement that wasn't a contractor. When you said "by law you cannot have an employee be a piece worker." I guess I got confused because you cannot be an employee unless an employer is paying you a set wage, unemployment insurance, worker's comp and 1/2 of your SSI.


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Piece work is a fine line.By law you cannot have an "employee" be a piece worker.The person must be hired as a "subcontractor" and as a subcontractor must have all the proper licensing and insurance(if needed).
> 
> Now,if a piece worker is under contract as a "true" sub contractor(as the letter of the law defines it) then the "employer" can pay only what the contract(pay-per-piece) states and the overtime law and minimum wage goes out the window.
> 
> Where it gets hairy is when the so-called "sub-contractor" claims that he is in fact an employee and is entitled to minimum wage and overtime.The criteria the courts use to decide this is,How much supervision is performed by the "employer",Is the "sub-contractor"(piece worker)performing the same duties as standard employees,How much control does the "employer" have over the day to day duties of the piece worker and is the contractor providing the majority of the tools.
> 
> There's other things taken in to account as well but these our some of the big things courts will look at to determine if a piece worker is a sub contractor or an employee.
> 
> If the courts rule that the piece worker is in fact an employee,then the employee is entitled to all back wages including overtime,reasonable legal fees including lawyers costs and liquid damages(if the court see's fit).


Why are we having this big discussion about employees and sub contractors.

The only thing I have been talking about in this thread are employees, where is all this sub contractor stuff coming from and why?:blink:

And what does nay of it have to do with this thread which is about fixing the IBEWs bad reputation?


----------



## slickvic277

amptech said:


> My misunderstanding then. I didn't see a post where anyone was suggesting a straight piece-work arrangement that wasn't a contractor.


No sweat:thumbsup:

I didn't think anyone really did suggest that.I was just replying to Bob's post about piece work and the minimum wage.I always found the piece work laws interesting.


----------



## amptech

Bob Badger said:


> Why are we having this big discussion about employees and sub contractors.
> 
> The only thing I have been talking about in this thread are employees, where is all this sub contractor stuff coming from and why?:blink:
> 
> And what does nay of it have to do with this thread which is about fixing the IBEWs bad reputation?


I have no idea. Maybe the IBEW should work its membership as tipped employees. Once contractors see how awesome they are they would make tons more in tips! But I guess it wouldn't be fair to the ugly ones.


----------



## slickvic277

Bob Badger said:


> Why are we having this big discussion about employees and sub contractors.
> 
> The only thing I have been talking about in this thread are employees, where is all this sub contractor stuff coming from and why?:blink:
> 
> And what does nay of it have to do with this thread which is about fixing the IBEWs bad reputation?


It's really not a big " discussion".I just felt like making a comment on a public forum in response to another comment.

And none of it has anything to do with the IBEW.But this thread has gone off topic more then once.

So,what's your problem?


----------



## slickvic277

jrannis said:


> Is a pieceworker a contractor?
> 
> I spoke to some guys that earned minimum wage plus piece work.
> 
> Is that how they usually get paid?



Hears the post I meant to quote in the beginning of the "great piece work debate"

Sorry Bob,didn't mean to confuse you.


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> No sweat:thumbsup:
> 
> I didn't think anyone really did suggest that.I was just replying to Bob's post about piece work and the minimum wage.I always found the piece work laws interesting.


 
Look up Worthington-Armstrong Venture.

Worthington Steel had a side business with Armstrong.

They make all the cieling grids for drop cielings.

Anyhoot, the employees were unionized and were paid piece work.

They were employees of Worthington, represented by the Union, and paid min wage, plus piece.

No subcontractor about it, anywhere.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Look up Worthington-Armstrong Venture.
> 
> Worthington Steel had a side business with Armstrong.
> 
> They make all the cieling grids for drop cielings.
> 
> Anyhoot, the employees were unionized and were paid piece work.
> 
> They were employees of Worthington, represented by the Union, and paid min wage, plus piece.
> 
> No subcontractor about it, anywhere.



NO F*CKING SH*T!!!

I said in my post to be paid purely by piece(no wages,no overtime,no nothing)You would have to be hired as a sub contractor.

Of course they were employees and not subs because they were paid minimum wage PLUS the incentive pay of per piece.

Christ,what is your problem?


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Piece work is a fine line.By law you cannot have an "employee" be a piece worker.The person must be hired as a "subcontractor" and as a subcontractor must have all the proper licensing and insurance(if needed).


Just pointing out this isn't the case.


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> Just pointing out this isn't the case.



What your calling a "piece worker" is a term used when people work on incentive pay(a wage plus a production pay)I'm talking about hiring someone and there strictly paid by the "piece"(production would be more appropriate)with no by the hour wages what so ever.

Were in my post did I not make that clear?


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Why are we having this big discussion about employees and sub contractors.
> 
> The only thing I have been talking about in this thread are employees, where is all this sub contractor stuff coming from and why?:blink:
> 
> And what does nay of it have to do with this thread which is about fixing the IBEWs bad reputation?



OH Bob..........

This thread is so hijacked we can talk about the price of tea in China and it wouldn't matter............


----------



## slickvic277

Great idea.Lets get this thread back on track.Lets talk about the IBEW and the unionizing of non union shops.

For the open shop contractors here,put aside your beliefs for a second and lets ponder this scenario....You've just been informed that 80% of your labor just signed authorization for representation cards and the local IBEW is requesting you to acknowledge the union and sign the contract.

Do you 

A) throw a fit and higher a lawyer

B) Refuse to acknowledge the union and demand an election

or 

C) Close your doors in the middle of the night move two states over and open a new shop in your mothers name.

Or would you respect the law and your employees and become signatory.

O.K. flame on.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob,
Did you get anything done today?
What job did you charge your time to?


----------



## Bob Badger

slickvic277 said:


> Great idea.Lets get this thread back on track.Lets talk about the IBEW and the unionizing of non union shops.


Why?

That is not what this thread is about. :no:


----------



## 10492

slickvic277 said:


> Great idea.Lets get this thread back on track.Lets talk about the IBEW and the unionizing of non union shops.
> 
> For the open shop contractors here,put aside your beliefs for a second and lets ponder this scenario....You've just been informed that 80% of your labor just signed authorization for representation cards and the local IBEW is requesting you to acknowledge the union and sign the contract.
> 
> Do you
> 
> A) throw a fit and higher a lawyer
> 
> B) Refuse to acknowledge the union and demand an election
> 
> or
> 
> C) Close your doors in the middle of the night move two states over and open a new shop in your mothers name.
> 
> Or would you respect the law and your employees and become signatory.
> 
> O.K. flame on.


 
D. Ask them how much they are going to give me for it, seeing how they seem to think its a gold mine and such a cash cow.


----------



## Bob Badger

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> Did you get anything done today?
> What job did you charge your time to?


I got a ton done today, but thats me, I am self motivated and like to be productive.

I just got back home, but I guess I was lazy, just 11 hours at the office today. 

How about you, did you spend the day figuring out new ways to say 'Oh Bob'? :laughing:


----------



## slickvic277

Dnkldorf said:


> D. Ask them how much they are going to give me for it, seeing how they seem to think its a gold mine and such a cash cow.



Give you how much for what?


----------



## indiana contractor

*Try this*

How about the IBEW President Edwin Hill taking a pay cut as 50% of the locals are laid off. Does he really need $475,000.00 per year? How about telling the membership just how protected by ERISA their pension is not. How about explaining where the IBEW gets 31 million dollars to support political campanges. The only two sources of IBEW income is contractors and members. Where does that money come from. Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places like Vegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.


----------



## william1978

indiana contractor said:


> How about the IBEW President Edwin Hill taking a pay cut as 50% of the locals are laid off. Does he really need $475,000.00 per year? How about telling the membership just how protected by ERISA their pension is not. How about explaining where the IBEW gets 31 million dollars to support political campanges. The only two sources of IBEW income is contractors and members. Where does that money come from. Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places like Vegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.


 That would be a real good way to lead by example.:thumbsup:


----------



## B4T

indiana contractor said:


> How about the IBEW President Edwin Hill taking a pay cut as 50% of the locals are laid off. Does he really need $475,000.00 per year? How about telling the membership just how protected by ERISA their pension is not. How about explaining where the IBEW gets 31 million dollars to support political campanges. The only two sources of IBEW income is contractors and members. Where does that money come from. Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places like Vegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.


Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:

Good to see a clear think man who makes very valid points..


----------



## slickvic277

indiana contractor said:


> How about the IBEW President Edwin Hill taking a pay cut as 50% of the locals are laid off. Does he really need $475,000.00 per year? How about telling the membership just how protected by ERISA their pension is not. How about explaining where the IBEW gets 31 million dollars to support political campanges. The only two sources of IBEW income is contractors and members. Where does that money come from. Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places like Vegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.



Yes Ed Hill is not a popular man.I'm not a fan at all of the majority of his policies.These are topics that very much need to be addressed.But 50% of the membership is not laid off a high percentage,yes but not 50%.Second thing is,the international pension is not the only part of retirement we have.My local pension is in great shape and my annuity made 28% in 2009 after losing 18% in 2008.10% over the past couple of years is pretty good considering the times were in.

I'm all for replacing Mr. Ed.Have any suggestions?


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> Give you how much for what?


That's what the EC said!


----------



## milehiwire

Bob Badger said:


> I got a ton done today, but thats me, I am self motivated and like to be productive.
> 
> I just got back home, but I guess I was lazy, just 11 hours at the office today.
> 
> How about you, did you spend the day figuring out new ways to say 'Oh Bob'? :laughing:


Now Bob, how many hours of those 11 hours were productive? Be honest now.

:laughing:

I was here too, I was here too............. Trouble is I have little to do. Boss says he will pay me just to be there to handle calls.

This really sucks.

Going Union right now would put 30 good people out of work and close our doors, plus nowhere for them to go. We could never compete and have trouble as it is.


----------



## electricmanscott

slickvic277 said:


> Or would you respect the law and your employees and become signatory.
> .


Respect these employees that are hijacking my company. No effin way. Shut it down.


----------



## brian john

slickvic277 said:


> Yes Ed Hill is not a popular man.I'm not a fan at all of the majority of his policies.These are topics that very much need to be addressed.But 50% of the membership is not laid off a high percentage,yes but not 50%.Second thing is,the international pension is not the only part of retirement we have.My local pension is in great shape and my annuity made 28% in 2009 after losing 18% in 2008.10% over the past couple of years is pretty good considering the times were in.
> 
> I'm all for replacing Mr. Ed.Have any suggestions?


*Bob Badger for PRESIDENT*


----------



## Bob Badger

milehiwire said:


> Now Bob, how many hours of those 11 hours were productive? Be honest now.
> 
> :laughing:


Most all of them, I had bids to get out, jobs to plan customers to listen to.



> Boss says he will pay me just to be there to handle calls.
> 
> This really sucks.


Been there few times, you are right it sucks.


----------



## Bob Badger

brian john said:


> Bob Badger for PRESIDENT


Like I would not do it for 1/2 mill a year. :laughing:


In all honesty, and I really mean this ..... exactly what would the IBEWs president do?


----------



## milehiwire

brian john said:


> *Bob Badger for PRESIDENT*


I wonder if he will run on the cost of a tea party in China ticket?

:laughing:


----------



## electricmanscott

Bob Badger said:


> In all honesty, and I really mean this ..... exactly what would the IBEWs president do?


Inflatable rat procurement. :laughing:


----------



## Bob Badger

electricmanscott said:


> Inflatable rat procurement. :laughing:


I picture a big meeting in an expensive office looking at an assortment of inflatable Rats trying to decide which one to go with.


----------



## JayH

Bob Badger said:


> I picture a big meeting in an expensive office looking at an assortment of inflatable Rats trying to decide which one to go with.


 
I have the same vision of Kirk Pickerel's office.


----------



## Bob Badger

JayH said:


> I have the same vision of Kirk Pickerel's office.


I don't care if he wipes his rear with 100s, it does not come out of my pay. :thumbsup:


----------



## milehiwire

I think what few union members realize is that they have one huge machine to operate and pay for on their backs.

I think that at this point in time they should "collectively" ask what the pay back is.


----------



## miller_elex

I pay $3000 a year to make $8000 more than the going 'Merit' rate.

Is there anything wrong with that? Is it 'un-meritorious' to pay some entity to represent me so I can make more? 

That's not wrong, that's called being smart!


There are entities that businesses pay, to collectively ensure they have access to cheaper wholesale goods, change laws to their benefit, and keep labor on the defense. Look it up, its called the Chamber of Commerce, the IEC, ABC, alphabet-soup-you-name-it.

If it is not wrong for management to collude to my demise, 
Why is it wrong for me to do the same in my defense???


----------



## milehiwire

miller_elex said:


> I pay $3000 a year to make $8000 more than the going 'Merit' rate.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with that? Is it 'un-meritorious' to pay some entity to represent me so I can make more?
> 
> That's not wrong, that's called being smart!
> 
> 
> There are entities that businesses pay, to collectively ensure they have access to cheaper wholesale goods, change laws to their benefit, and keep labor on the defense. Look it up, its called the Chamber of Commerce, the IEC, ABC, alphabet-soup-you-name-it.
> 
> If it is not wrong for management to collude to my demise,
> Why is it wrong for me to do the same in my defense???


Glad you have a job. Many do not.


----------



## miller_elex

I.D.G.A.F. if the president of the IBEW has sex with chimpanzees.
Only in Bob's wet dreams...

To me it matters what shakes down on the local level. 

It doesn't matter here that South Carolina has 1% union density, the state can sink in to the atlantic for all I care. Not to mention, the state has to whore itself out, because it has no other natural resource than cheap labor.

Can't wait until the southerners have to buy our uranium for your reactors, I guess you will need our portland cement and rebar too, to complete the deal. Need Carpetbag Yank Electricians to complete the nuke job?

Most Ironic, is that the brightest men on the job will be French engineers, can you say Areva?


----------



## user4818

miller_elex said:


> I.D.G.A.F. if the president of the IBEW has sex with chimpanzees.
> Only in Bob's wet dreams...
> 
> To me it matters what shakes down on the local level.
> 
> It doesn't matter here that South Carolina has 1% union density, the state can sink in to the atlantic for all I care. Not to mention, the state has to whore itself out, because it has no other natural resource than cheap labor.
> 
> Can't wait until the southerners have to buy our uranium for your reactors, I guess you will need our portland cement and rebar too, to complete the deal. Need Carpetbag Yank Electricians to complete the nuke job?
> 
> Most Ironic, is that the brightest men on the job will be French engineers, can you say Areva?


What a troll.


----------



## milehiwire

miller_elex said:


> I pay $3000 a year to make $8000 more than the going 'Merit' rate.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with that? Is it 'un-meritorious' to pay some entity to represent me so I can make more?
> 
> That's not wrong, that's called being smart!
> 
> 
> There are entities that businesses pay, to collectively ensure they have access to cheaper wholesale goods, change laws to their benefit, and keep labor on the defense. Look it up, its called the Chamber of Commerce, the IEC, ABC, alphabet-soup-you-name-it.
> 
> If it is not wrong for management to collude to my demise,
> Why is it wrong for me to do the same in my defense???


Because at some point I will need to see the economy turning back to the private sector rather than the few bid invites I see, which for the most part, are government related jobs. (Union) You really need to ask yourself who pays the taxes to keep the whole mess floating? It is sure not unionized workers.


----------



## miller_elex

WTF? I don't see much PW work, so I don't understand about this 'breaking the back of the taxpayer' B.S.

I pay more taxes, because I make more, end of story.

You want to cry about people making more money than they are worth, cry about the CEO's, the Mortgage Brokers, and the lawyers.

Save your sorry soup for the douchebags who really got us in this mess, see above paragraph for an abbreviated list.


----------



## milehiwire

miller_elex said:


> WTF? I don't see much PW work, so I don't understand about this 'breaking the back of the taxpayer' B.S.
> 
> I pay more taxes, because I make more, end of story.
> 
> You want to cry about people making more money than they are worth, cry about the CEO's, the Mortgage Brokers, and the lawyers.
> 
> Save your sorry soup for the douchebags who really got us in this mess, see above paragraph for an abbreviated list.


Very eloquent.


----------



## Charlie K

milehiwire said:


> Because at some point I will need to see the economy turning back to the private sector rather than the few bid invites I see, which for the most part, are government related jobs. (Union) You really need to ask yourself who pays the taxes to keep the whole mess floating? It is sure not unionized workers.


Government construction is not all Union. Yes it is prevailing wage. What you cant compete on a pw project. The Unions beating you out? Whatever dues I pay are worth every bit of it. I have only worked for a few contractors and each one better than the last. I have never had quotas placed on me by the Union. The contractor I work for is coming off of a record year and the next looks even better. Yes Union contractors can and do pay nice bonuses. 

Charlie


----------



## slickvic277

milehiwire said:


> Because at some point I will need to see the economy turning back to the private sector rather than the few bid invites I see, which for the most part, are government related jobs. (Union) You really need to ask yourself who pays the taxes to keep the whole mess floating? It is sure not unionized workers.



So which one is it?The unionized work force is only 12% so who cares were so irrelevant any way _*OR*_ The unions are sucking the tax payers dry and the free market needs to be returned to the rightful owners! The business owners and the law makers and the lawyers and everyone except the little insignificant %12 market share unions!

Last I checked my taxes mean just as much as yours do,and I probably pay more taxes to boot!But I guess my taxes don't count because I'm union.

And the whole irony in this is I have never once been on a government job!!!


----------



## milehiwire

slickvic277 said:


> So which one is it?The unionized work force is only 12% so who cares were so irrelevant any way _*OR*_ The unions are sucking the tax payers dry and the free market needs to be returned to the rightful owners! The business owners and the law makers and the lawyers and everyone except the little insignificant %12 market share unions!
> 
> Last I checked my taxes mean just as much as yours do,and I probably pay more taxes to boot!But I guess my taxes don't count because I'm union.
> 
> And the whole irony in this is I have never once been on a government job!!!


Our markets differ quite a bit. I would need to have all apprentices BAT certified or pay journeyman wages to all of them.


----------



## miller_elex

On the PW topic while we're at it,

I don't care if a non-union guy gets the fringes on the check working PW, is banking $40 something an hour, so what? 

He is going to blow all that money that I put into my pension and health+welfare, which comes around for me later.

The reason union shops get the bid on PW, is because they have a lower business overhead per manhour, Look it up in the back of RS Means next time your at it. 

Sorry about the lower overhead per manhour, I guess the signatory contractors have more sophisticated owners and management. Guess you should sign-on with the NECA, that other alphabet organization devoted to the needs of owners and management of contractors.


----------



## Charlie K

milehiwire said:


> Our markets differ quite a bit. I would need to have all apprentices BAT certified or pay journeyman wages to all of them.


BAT ? Board of apprenticeship training? Why not get them certified. Or do you like holding them back?

Charlie


----------



## milehiwire

slickvic277 said:


> Last I checked my taxes mean just as much as yours do,and I probably pay more taxes to boot!But I guess my taxes don't count because I'm union.


It's not that your taxes do not count. It means that private and non-union industries/markets are drying up.


----------



## milehiwire

Charlie K said:


> BAT ? Board of apprenticeship training? Why not get them certified. Or do you like holding them back?
> 
> Charlie


That is a good question.


----------



## milehiwire

miller_elex said:


> Sorry about the lower overhead per manhour, I guess the signatory contractors have more sophisticated owners and management. Guess you should sign-on with the NECA, that other alphabet organization devoted to the needs of owners and management of contractors.


I have been on both sides. Why be why that so many men sit on the bench?


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> I pay $3000 a year to make $8000 more than the going 'Merit' rate.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with that? Is it 'un-meritorious' to pay some entity to represent me so I can make more?
> 
> That's not wrong, that's called being smart!
> 
> 
> There are entities that businesses pay, to collectively ensure they have access to cheaper wholesale goods, change laws to their benefit, and keep labor on the defense. Look it up, its called the Chamber of Commerce, the IEC, ABC, alphabet-soup-you-name-it.
> 
> If it is not wrong for management to collude to my demise,
> Why is it wrong for me to do the same in my defense???


It is not wrong in my opinion and for many this is a wise choice.


----------



## miller_elex

milehiwire said:


> It means that private and non-union industries/markets are drying up.


I wondered when so many houses was going to be enough.

Also wondered when so many strip malls was going to be enough.

Does that make me a jerk? Yes, but there was real reason to be concerned after all. We're all suffering after that glut of work put everything out of perspective.


----------



## milehiwire

brian john said:


> It is not wrong in my opinion and for many this is a wise choice.


But right or wrong you can find people just as well trained for half the price.

Sorry, but in a bid situation you will have no work.

I know, I know Brian, you will tell how great you are but most of us are mere mortals.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I was unaware that you get to decide who and who is not a contractor, man you have head as big as NYC.



I get to decide what I believe and who is full of s&$t you make your own decisions.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I get to decide what I believe and who is full of s&$t you make your own decisions.


Are you getting drunk off mouthwash again? :blink:


----------



## Charlie K

milehiwire said:


> I have been on both sides. Why be why that so many men sit on the bench?


Do you think because of the economy? Work is tight and lots of contractors are taking it at cost. Union contractors seldom take work at cost. They know what it takes to do the job. We are still doing a lot of private work. This recession is taking a toll on mismanaged firms. I talk to the outside salesman from the large suppliers and hear of more going out or in trouble. Our local has lost two contractors in the last 5 years. One was bankrupt due to a few gc's and the other was a breakup of a partnership. We picked up a few new contractors along the way. Our local also has some men on the bench but it is moving.

Charlie


----------



## milehiwire

Peter D said:


> Are you getting drunk off mouthwash again? :blink:


I think lawn guys drink Jack? I may be wrong.:laughing:


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> Why are we having this big discussion about employees and sub contractors.
> 
> 
> *Oldman brought it up 3 pages ago.*
> 
> 
> The only thing I have been talking about in this thread are employees, where is all this sub contractor stuff ...?


Sorry the world isn't revolving around you yet Bob...


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Sorry the world isn't revolving around you yet Bob...


Oh no. LGLS woke up from his stupor and is at it again. 

You can't possibly take any competition from having the world revolve around you?


----------



## milehiwire

Charlie K said:


> Do you think because of the economy? Work is tight and lots of contractors are taking it at cost. Union contractors seldom take work at cost. They know what it takes to do the job. We are still doing a lot of private work. This recession is taking a toll on mismanaged firms. I talk to the outside salesman from the large suppliers and hear of more going out or in trouble. Our local has lost two contractors in the last 5 years. One was bankrupt due to a few gc's and the other was a breakup of a partnership. We picked up a few new contractors along the way. Our local also has some men on the bench but it is moving.
> 
> Charlie


That may be the world were you are but not in mine. We have some union contractors that are huge and no-one can touch them. They are for big underground projects for the most part or gov work. But for the work I do they could never hit the numbers that I need to run.


----------



## william1978

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I get to decide what I believe and who is full of s&$t you make your own decisions.


 :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


----------



## user4818

william1978 said:


> :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


Don't mind LG. He's just hammered or grumpy that he's not hammered yet.


----------



## B4T

Peter D said:


> Don't mind LG. He's just hammered or grumpy that he's not hammered yet.


We have something that was invented on LI called Long Island Iced Tea.. try it sometime


----------



## brian john

milehiwire said:


> But right or wrong you can find people just as well trained for half the price.
> 
> Sorry, but in a bid situation you will have no work.
> 
> I know, I know Brian, you will tell how great you are but most of us are mere mortals.


I am not great I compete in a somewhat limited market. Many of the contractors in my area are union large and small they compete and remain in business competing against open and union shops,


----------



## milehiwire

Black4Truck said:


> We have something that was invented on LI called Long Island Iced Tea.. try it sometime


Explain? LOL


----------



## milehiwire

brian john said:


> I am not great I compete in a somewhat limited market. Many of the contractors in my area are union large and small they compete and remain in business competing against open and union shops,


I have read your stuff BJ. I respect the hell out of what you do. I stuck you as a sticky elsewhere..... LOL


----------



## brian john

milehiwire said:


> Explain? LOL


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Iced_Tea


----------



## milehiwire

brian john said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Iced_Tea


Good post. It will trash you in a few.


----------



## milehiwire

I respect the hell out of the moderators here who have let this post (thread) live....

that's all.


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> How about the IBEW President Edwin Hill taking a pay cut as 50% of the locals are laid off. Does he really need $475,000.00 per year?
> 
> *Sounds like you're jealous.*
> 
> How about telling the membership just how protected by ERISA their pension is not.
> 
> *Care to point out an instance where an IBEW retiree didn't get his pension?
> 
> How about explaining where the IBEW gets 31 million dollars to support political campanges. The only two sources of IBEW income is contractors and members. Where does that money come from.
> *


*

we raise funds and pool the money to do useful things, should the IBEW be broke? 
COPE -voluntary contributions. 
Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places likeVegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.[/QUOTE]*


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> we raise funds and pool the money to do useful things, should the IBEW be broke?


:sleep1:


----------



## Frasbee

milehiwire said:


> I respect the hell out of the moderators here who have let this post live....
> 
> that's all.


They're trying to keep it quarantined to this thread.


----------



## milehiwire

Frasbee said:


> They're trying to keep it quarantined to this thread.


Regardless, I wish we had half the traffic on our site.:laughing:

That is why I am here! :laughing:


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> I pay $3000 a year to make $8000 more than the going 'Merit' rate.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with that? Is it 'un-meritorious' to pay some entity to represent me so I can make more?
> 
> That's not wrong, that's called being smart!


Of course, but nonunion contractors don't want employees doing anything smart for themselves, they embrace ignorance.



> There are entities that businesses pay, to collectively ensure they have access to cheaper wholesale goods, change laws to their benefit, and keep labor on the defense. Look it up, its called the Chamber of Commerce, the IEC, ABC, alphabet-soup-you-name-it.
> 
> If it is not wrong for management to collude to my demise,
> Why is it wrong for me to do the same in my defense???


----------



## Charlie K

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> we raise funds and pool the money to do useful things, should the IBEW be broke?
> *COPE -voluntary contributions.
> Where does the market recovery money come from? Only two possible answers.Over a million dollars in "progress meetings" in places likeVegas,Florida and Arizonia. WAKE UP MEMBERS!!!!!! Your being robbed.*


*[/quote]

Dont be fooled. ABC has a PAC. ABC has similar meetings to our progress meetings. Just look at their schedule. I guess that justifies the lower non union wages. Contractors would rather send ABC's presidents to their council meetings and conventions than give it to their employees.

Charlie*


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Of course, but nonunion contractors don't want employees doing anything smart for themselves, they embrace ignorance.


Go away, troll. :sleep1:


----------



## milehiwire

Dont be fooled. ABC has a PAC. ABC has similar meetings to our progress meetings. Just look at their schedule. I guess that justifies the lower non union wages. Contractors would rather send ABC's presidents to their council meetings and conventions than give it to their employees.

Charlie[/quote]

Go try and run a company there Chuck.


----------



## LGLS

Charlie K said:


> Government construction is not all Union. Yes it is prevailing wage. What you cant compete on a pw project. The Unions beating you out? Whatever dues I pay are worth every bit of it. I have only worked for a few contractors and each one better than the last. I have never had quotas placed on me by the Union. The contractor I work for is coming off of a record year and the next looks even better. Yes Union contractors can and do pay nice bonuses.
> 
> Charlie


Doesn't abuse Skotchcoat?!?!?!


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> Are you getting drunk off mouthwash again? :blink:


Which prison are you posting from again?


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Which prison are you posting from again?


How many shots have you had tonight anyway? :blink:


----------



## LGLS

milehiwire said:


> That may be the world were you are but not in mine. We have some union contractors that are huge and no-one can touch them. They are for big underground projects for the most part or gov work. But for the work I do they could never hit the numbers that I need to run.


Because nonunion labor is paid less than 1/2. Thank you.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Because nonunion labor is paid less than 1/2. Thank you.



Yep, thankfully it will always be a drag on your overpriced wage. :thumbsup:


----------



## miller_elex

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Because nonunion labor is paid less than 1/2. Thank you.


Call me a d1ck, but I think a guy who plugs&switches houses every day for the past 8 years is worth half the going rate.

What's worse, the guy let it happen to himself, whose to blame then?

The problem with talented workers is, in a strong local they all flock to the IBEW, where they get paid what they're worth. 

Sucks doesn't it? You get stuck with either a sub-standard journeyman, or a wack job idealogue with a god-complex who is going to stick around long enough to learn the business then become your competition.


----------



## LGLS

Peter D said:


> How many shots have you had tonight anyway? :blink:


Only the ones you're throwing in here.


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Only the ones you're throwing in here.


:thumbup:


----------



## minibdr

pete your good at name calling. When I do it it`s wrong but I guess it`s o.k. what a rat does it. Go make your nonunion money and stop bitching about the good guys.


----------



## user4818

minibdr said:


> pete your good at name calling. When I do it it`s wrong but I guess it`s o.k. what a rat does it. Go make your nonunion money and stop bitching about the good guys.


Ok chief, whatever you say. :laughing::laughing: How many hits did you take off the crack pipe before you posted that? :laughing::laughing:


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> Call me a d1ck, but I think a guy who plugs&switches houses every day for the past 8 years is worth half the going rate.
> 
> What's worse, the guy let it happen to himself, whose to blame then?
> 
> The problem with talented workers is, in a strong local they all flock to the IBEW, where they get paid what they're worth.
> 
> Sucks doesn't it? You get stuck with either a sub-standard journeyman, or a wack job idealogue with a god-complex who is going to stick around long enough to learn the business then become your competition.



There are some valid points here, I propose a solution I think most of us can live with under a thread titled "how can Merit non-union restore integrity?"


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> Call me a d1ck, but I think a guy who plugs&switches houses every day for the past 8 years is worth half the going rate.
> 
> What's worse, the guy let it happen to himself, whose to blame then?


If a guy working residential has no desire to advance, that's his fault.



> The problem with talented workers is, in a strong local they all flock to the IBEW, where they get paid what they're worth.


That's "the problem?" No, the problem is, they're NOT getting paid what they're worth UNLESS they flock to the local. 

Now... who's fault is that? 



> Sucks doesn't it? You get stuck with either a sub-standard journeyman, or a wack job idealogue with a god-complex who is going to stick around long enough to learn the business then become your competition.


Well if nonunion shops would stop following their pattern of 6 helpers to one electrician maybe this wouldn't happen. Problem is, once a kid is taught to do a few things on his own, he is set out to do electrician's work, billed at electrician's rates, but paid helper's wages because practically every electrical shop owner that came into existance in the past 40 or 50 years think's he's entitled to instantanious wealth.


----------



## Bob Badger

Black4Truck said:


> We have something that was invented on LI called Long Island Iced Tea.. try it sometime


One of my favorites when I go out.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> One of my favorites when I go out.


Well, wherever you go out to they must make it right. There should be no hint that the drink contains any alcohol, when mixed correctly. It should taste just like bottled Iced Tea.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well, wherever you go out to they must make it right. There should be no hint that the drink contains any alcohol, when mixed correctly. It should taste just like bottled Iced Tea.


I agree with you and some bartenders make them very badly.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> I agree with you and some bartenders make them very badly.


First time I had one it tasted so good I asked for a double thinking they made a weak drink.
The bartender laughed and said that what I drank was all booze and a double would just be twice as much a very large glass


----------



## Control Freak

milehiwire said:


> Our markets differ quite a bit. I would need to have all apprentices BAT certified or pay journeyman wages to all of them.


So what's the problem? If those are the requirements it is what it is! 

What's not fair? You have to comply with the rules like everyone else!


----------



## indiana contractor

*Read and understand*

*[PDF]* 
*Department Of Labor April 16,2008 Mr. Edwin D. Hill International ...*

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Apr 16, 2008 *...* Workers, AFL-CIO (*IBEW*). LM File Number 000-116. Dear Presid


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> *[PDF]*
> *Department Of Labor April 16,2008 Mr. Edwin D. Hill International ...*
> 
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
> Apr 16, 2008 *...* Workers, AFL-CIO (*IBEW*). LM File Number 000-116. Dear Presid


Picky picky, picky! Didn't properly tag office inventory? Sloppy recordkeeping? This is what you got?


----------



## indiana contractor

The IBEW mailroom takes in checks and there is no records kept on said checks?


----------



## indiana contractor

*Lm-2 Report*

STATEMENT A - ASSETS AND LIABILITIESFILE NUMBER: 000-116
ASSETSASSETSSchedule 
Number Start of Reporting Period 
(A) End of Reporting Period 
(B) 22. Cash $18,292,498$19,543,13323. Accounts Receivable1$11,078,225$12,503,97424. Loans Receivable2$3,247,325$2,660,00025. U.S. Treasury Securities $0$5,613,48026. Investments5$392,307,323$323,022,53927. Fixed Assets6$32,178,910$30,297,73728. Other Assets7$54,290,167$68,770,92129. TOTAL ASSETS $511,394,448$462,411,784


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> The IBEW mailroom takes in checks and there is no records kept on said checks?


Sure, the checks have to be deposited, right? The report said there is no one in the mailroom to log or inventory checks, and apparently this is required. 

Getting back to your 1st post, you claimed the IBEW pension isn't compliant with ERISA, would you care to back that up, or do you just like to drop bombs and split? I know quite a few pensioners... none are missing any payments. 

Just above you posted the figures from the LM2 report... uh, exactly what is your point Indiana Contractor?


----------



## indiana contractor

*Last attempt*

I said the pension is not protected. I did not say compliant. The NLRB report I posted shows the noncompliance. One of the many points I was hoping you may gather is the fact that my IBEW pension is NOT 100% funded or protected by ERISA at 100% of its value.

Exceptional good ideas sell themselves. If the union is such a good deal for the worker,why the attempts to pass card check. Why market recovery money used to "BUY" jobs when we are all so much better than our non-union conterparts. Where does the money come from to "BUY" aformentioned jobs. If the UNION has extra money to "BUY" jobs,why not use it to provide health and welfare for their laid off members. 

Please read the LM 2 reports and look at the waste. All of us in the IBEW need to focus more on the welfare and working conditions of the member versus the political machine we pay for.


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> I said the pension is not protected. I did not say compliant. The NLRB report I posted shows the noncompliance. One of the many points I was hoping you may gather is the fact that my IBEW pension is NOT 100% funded or protected by ERISA at 100% of its value.


No defined benefit annuity is. No problem there. Like I said, NOBODY has been told there's no pension money or missed a pension check. You're grasping at straws.

I know other locals have different H&W benifits based on their markets. The International pension is the least of my worries as I have 4 others through the local. I think the international pension was set up as a bare-bones minimum to cover all jurisdictions as a basic starting point, but not meant to be the only pension benifit for those working in areas where the cost of living is higher than "pitifully low." 



> Exceptional good ideas sell themselves. If the union is such a good deal for the worker,why the attempts to pass card check.


Card check streamlines the process by which an organized shop's employees MUST be recognized as a bonifide bargianing unit. The legislation cripples the ability of an employer to challenge and demand a vote under the watch of the NLRB which can take some time - time the employers use to fire workers, threaten, coerce, etc. An employer can still protest and demand a formal vote, but in the meantime while that is worked out and scheduled they're union members if the majority want to be...



> Why market recovery money used to "BUY" jobs when we are all so much better than our non-union conterparts. Where does the money come from to "BUY" aformentioned jobs. If the UNION has extra money to "BUY" jobs,why not use it to provide health and welfare for their laid off members.


Market recovery money is used to buy jobs because being the best isn't good enough when the competition brings in 3X as many monkeys for 1/2 the price. The members of a local vote to allow a deduction from their wages to fund a market recovery program, it cannot be used to finance the health & welfare of laid off members. You could vote to start a fund like that, but you cannot vote to start a fund for something but then apply that money to anything other than what the membership voted for. 



> Please read the LM 2 reports and look at the waste. All of us in the IBEW need to focus more on the welfare and working conditions of the member versus the political machine we pay for.


I looked at the report and I am not seeing any "waste." If you think the fund balances constitute waste because there's a lot of money there, you gotta wake up and realize this is an INTERNATIONAL union, not Indiana and things like the oil bill to heat the building cost more than one of your 100 acre farms. 

Most of that report addressed stupid miniscue recordkeeping issues like a business lunch but no receipt to validate it, or, no name on the reciept to indicate who was fed... no mileage reports from business agents in company cars...

C'mon man this is piddly bull****. You're crying wolf.


----------



## indiana contractor

Your right. Their perfect and Im just being silly. I will go back to following along in the same sheep like manner that suits all union leaders.


----------



## 10492

indiana contractor said:


> TOTAL ASSETS $511,394,448


 
1/2 billion dollars......and these guys are out of work still paying dues.

You wanna talk braindead.

Yeah, blame the greedy Ceo's on wall street.


----------



## indiana contractor

Now stop that independant thinking,your going to have to fill out a hurt feeling report.If you need one I can did one up outta our corn fields and send it. We dont have any big industry in northwest Indiana. We only build farm sheds. EG: U.S.Steel,Inland Steel, Mittal Steel. I HOPE to bid on the next Walmart Remodel when they CHANGE the store.


----------



## indiana contractor

*Here is local 3*

STATEMENT A - ASSETS AND LIABILITIESFILE NUMBER: 006-367
ASSETSASSETSSchedule 
Number Start of Reporting Period 
(A) End of Reporting Period 
(B) 22. Cash $1,318,358$2,255,97123. Accounts Receivable1$28,035$66,07624. Loans Receivable2$0$025. U.S. Treasury Securities $9,217,642$9,838,50126. Investments5$20,505,173$20,617,97527. Fixed Assets6$1,472,652$1,347,77428. Other Assets7$33,960$73,83329. TOTAL ASSETS $32,575,820$34,200,130


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> 1/2 billion dollars......and these guys are out of work still paying dues.
> 
> You wanna talk braindead.
> 
> Yeah, blame the greedy Ceo's on wall street.


Braindead? Yea... the base JW rate is 49.00 an hour here, in the Merit shop they're lucky to see $25.00 with NO benefits other than maybe a crappy healthcare plan which is deducted from that $25.00 hourly rate.

Right now we're seeing the nonunion shops churning their workforces, that is, firing them, and then rehiring other fired workers for 10.00 less per hour...

Yea... being union is really a dumb move isn't it?

As for the International, their dues come out of our local dues, which are effectively 1% of our gross wages and $220.00 a year...


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> STATEMENT A - ASSETS AND LIABILITIESFILE NUMBER: 006-367
> ASSETSASSETSSchedule
> Number Start of Reporting Period
> (A) End of Reporting Period
> (B) 22. Cash $1,318,358$2,255,97123. Accounts Receivable1$28,035$66,07624. Loans Receivable2$0$025. U.S. Treasury Securities $9,217,642$9,838,50126. Investments5$20,505,173$20,617,97527. Fixed Assets6$1,472,652$1,347,77428. Other Assets7$33,960$73,83329. TOTAL ASSETS $32,575,820$34,200,130


Like they say, it takes money to make money.


----------



## indiana contractor

220 a year X 750,000 members=$165,000,000.00 How then is the pension underfunded?


----------



## indiana contractor

*Southern California Electrical Workers Local Treasurer Indicted *

Submitted by Carl Horowitz on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:49 

James Miles has plenty of reasons to fear a trial - more than 350 of them, in fact. Miles, formerly treasurer of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 1023, pleaded not guilty in Riverside, Calif. federal court on February 3 to charges related to his theft of more than $93,000 from the Barstow union over four and a half years. A grand jury on January 13 had indicted him on one count of embezzlement, nine counts of mail fraud and two counts of filing false financial statements with the U.S. Department of Labor. He also allegedly filed false federal and state tax returns on behalf of himself and the union. A pretrial hearing is set for March 22


----------



## indiana contractor

*International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)*


*Southern California Electrical Workers Local Treasurer Indicted *

Submitted by Carl Horowitz on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 16:49 

James Miles has plenty of reasons to fear a trial - more than 350 of them, in fact. Miles, formerly treasurer of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 1023, pleaded not guilty in Riverside, Calif. federal court on February 3 to charges related to his theft of more than $93,000 from the Barstow union over four and a half years. A grand jury on January 13 had indicted him on one count of embezzlement, nine counts of mail fraud and two counts of filing false financial statements with the U.S. Department of Labor. He also allegedly filed false federal and state tax returns on behalf of himself and the union. A pretrial hearing is set for March 22.


International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
James Miles
Union Corruption Update

Carl Horowitz's blog
Read more


*Electrical Workers Secretary-Treasurer in Michigan Pleads Guilty to Theft *

Submitted by Carl Horowitz on Thu, 12/24/2009 - 13:01 








On October 28, Carolyn Williams, former secretary-treasurer of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 352 in Lansing, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court for the Western District of Michigan to embezzling $9,554.14 in union funds. She had been indicted in September. The guilty plea follows a probe by the Labor Department's Office of Labor-Management Standards.


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## indiana contractor

On July 7, Thomas Carrola, former financial secretary-treasurer for Local 1919 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, was indicted in U.S. District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania on one count of embezzling funds in the amount of $35,057.70 and one count of falsifying union records. The Pittsburgh-based local represents electrical line and tree removal workers. The indictment follows an investigation by the U.S. Labor Department's Office of Labor-Management Standards


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## indiana contractor

Shall I continue? Getting the picture?


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Like they say, it takes money to make money.


I cannot think of a more two faced person then you. 

If a company owner said that you would hang them, if it is the union it is all OK.

You have absolutely no creditability at all.:no:


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## oldman

I vote that LGLS' username be changed to "Robert Gibbs"


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## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Braindead? Yea... the base JW rate is 49.00 an hour here, in the Merit shop they're lucky to see $25.00 with NO benefits other than maybe a crappy healthcare plan which is deducted from that $25.00 hourly rate.
> 
> Right now we're seeing the nonunion shops churning their workforces, that is, firing them, and then rehiring other fired workers for 10.00 less per hour...


If LGLS says it, it _must_ be true.


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Right now we're seeing the nonunion shops churning their workforces, that is, firing them, and then rehiring other fired workers for 10.00 less per hour...


Yeah, is there a point here?

No one is forcing those employees to go back to the same company.



> Yea... being union is really a dumb move isn't it?


For some it is, for others it is not.


----------



## Shado

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> If a guy working residential has no desire to advance, that's his fault.


So...a persons success and happiness is soley based on your ideas and ideals alone?

Talk about holier than thou....remember...without the little people (as you guys see them)....you would have to wire your own house, suck out the porta lets, etc....


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## Southeast Power

OK, have we officially hit bottom yet??


----------



## Shado

jrannis said:


> OK, have we officially hit bottom yet??


We are human after all....anything is possible!!:laughing:


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## oldman

jrannis said:


> OK, have we officially hit bottom yet??


Now you sound like Harry Reid....


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## indiana contractor

Just tell me how to get out of the IBEW. My employees will get a better deal.


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## william1978

Peter D said:


> If LGLS says it, it _must_ be true.


 Well of course you can take what he says to the bank.:no:


----------



## Frasbee

Here's something.

Let me supply my own tools.

I will gladly fork out for anything required, but I would like to use my power tools if I feel compelled to do so. Placing restrictions on something like that seems silly to me.


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## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> Shall I continue? Getting the picture?


What picture am I supposed to be getting, that there are some dishonest peole in the world, and some of them steal?


----------



## Control Freak

indiana contractor said:


> Just tell me how to get out of the IBEW. My employees will get a better deal.


 
Explain to me how your employees would get a better deal?
I am not saying you won't give them a better deal I am just curuious how.


----------



## Control Freak

*indiana contractor* are you PhatElvis?
You guys have very similiar opinions!


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## brian john

Control Freak said:


> *indiana contractor* are you PhatElvis?
> You guys have very similiar opinions!


In a country of millions I cannot imagine 2 people both thinking they can do better for their employees than the IBEW, baffles me.


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> Here's something.
> 
> Let me supply my own tools.
> 
> I will gladly fork out for anything required, but I would like to use my power tools if I feel compelled to do so. Placing restrictions on something like that seems silly to me.


Why would you want to supply your own powertools? To be 
ore productive than the rest or to save the employer money? Either way, it's to stand apart from the rest so that you are viewed in a more favorable light. That way, push comes to shove it's the other guy who gets laid off and not you. Would you do that to your brother


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> Just tell me how to get out of the IBEW. My employees will get a better deal.



Sure, just like they were before you were organized, right?


----------



## Frasbee

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why would you want to supply your own powertools? To be
> ore productive than the rest or to save the employer money? Either way, it's to stand apart from the rest so that you are viewed in a more favorable light. That way, push comes to shove it's the other guy who gets laid off and not you. Would you do that to your brother


Yes.

I don't want to use Ryobi $hit.

I don't want to rush to the gang box in the morning to try to be the first to get the working tools.

Do you drive a Chevy because the government wants you to?

Do you ever construct anywhere besides your comfy job? Or do you worry that the carpenters union will picket your house for constructing a shed in your back yard?

The company can supply power tools as they please, just as I should be able to supply my own power tools as I please. EDIT: And since union companies are required to supply them anyway, who gives a $hit that I want to use my Bosch?


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> Yes.
> 
> I don't want to use Ryobi $hit.
> 
> I don't want to rush to the gang box in the morning to try to be the first to get the working tools.
> 
> Do you drive a Chevy because the government wants you to?
> 
> Do you ever construct anywhere besides your comfy job? Or do you worry that the carpenters union will picket your house for constructing a shed in your back yard?


You have A tool list and that is all you supply. Anything more and you are knocking down conditions. Don't worry about getting a working tool, gang boxes full of crap aren't found on jobsites where the employer is actually 
paying real Money for labor.


> The company can supply power tools as they please, just as I should be able to supply my own power tools as I please. EDIT: And since union companies are required to supply them anyway, who gives a $hit that I want to use my Bosch?


----------



## miller_elex

Frasbee,

Go ahead use your Bosch. The company had (2) 36V Boschs for a stick frame job I did, they drove ship augers like a holehawg. Those mortarforkers kick ass!

I don't know of any union shop that has a problem supplying anything cheaper than an 18V dewalt with less than two years on it, with at least three good batteries per man. Add to that at least one cordless sawzall with two batteries every two men, and a cordless SDS rotohammer.

You see, when a contractor pays premium for labor, they don't fiddle fart with crap tools. They want every man, productive, all the time. And guess what? Its a good idea, and it works very well.

Frasbee, the tool list is quite extensive, and it more of a list that says what you cannot bring, which is all the expensive heavy tools that the contractor should provide anyways.


----------



## miller_elex

Slickvic277,

I have to commend for your trying to reason with these folks. 

Too bad it is a big waste of time. The only thing they will ever see the IBEW as, is a threat, their mind is not going to change.

What matters is that the IBEW represents the interests of people such as you and myself. I give the union, what, 3.5%? 

Parishoners give the church 10%, not for help in this life, but the next. 

My 3.5% pays off now, every paycheck, every doctor visit (haven't had one in eight years,) and when I retire. If the union wanted 10%, I might balk without a burden of proof. But in society such as today, give 10% away to the chuch, and it is called pious, no burden of proof from above required.


----------



## LGLS

Bob Badger said:


> I cannot think of a more two faced person then you.


Clearly, you're not counting chins.:laughing:



> If a company owner said that you would hang them, if it is the union it is all OK.
> 
> You have absolutely no creditability at all.:no:


----------



## user4818

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Clearly, you're not counting chins.:laughing:


:sleep1:


----------



## Southeast Power

miller_elex said:


> Frasbee,
> 
> Go ahead use your Bosch. The company had (2) 36V Boschs for a stick frame job I did, they drove ship augers like a holehawg. Those mortarforkers kick ass!
> 
> I don't know of any union shop that has a problem supplying anything cheaper than an 18V dewalt with less than two years on it, with at least three good batteries per man. Add to that at least one cordless sawzall with two batteries every two men, and a cordless SDS rotohammer.
> 
> You see, when a contractor pays premium for labor, they don't fiddle fart with crap tools. They want every man, productive, all the time. And guess what? Its a good idea, and it works very well.
> 
> Frasbee, the tool list is quite extensive, and it more of a list that says what you cannot bring, which is all the expensive heavy tools that the contractor should provide anyways.


I always remember having good power tools on the jobs I worked.
Most were bought new for the job to be consumed. Others lasted a long time. 
If a tool was broken, it was repaired or replaced right away.
Someone tried to steal a drill once( other trade). It came back the next day.

I went back to that shop 20 years or so later and some of the same tuggers, threaders and benders are still there. They might have needed a paint job but they all worked.


One really good place I worked had one person bending all of the large conduit. You could order any bend you wanted, come back in an hour or so and it would be waiting for you. No more time wasted in line waiting for the bender.


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> I don't care if he wipes his rear with 100s, it does not come out of my pay. :thumbsup:


It comes out of our pay, which keeps your guys wages up. :thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Clearly, you're not counting chins.:laughing:


Clearly you are a genius. :thumbsup:


----------



## Thomps

*Reason?????*

Miller- I've seen little attempt from you (or for the most part anyone) to reason with others with a contrary position between labour and contractor. 

You're right, unfortunately I do have to take the position that the ibew is a theat to who I am and what I do. Never has any rep from the ibew ever approached me and said "let us help" or "how can together, move this industry forward?"

instead I get threatened with "we're going to get you" and "one day you'll make a mistake and we will be right there". I have had my vans spray painted, and guys bribed. 

So, as a contractor (merit, just so we are clear) how do you expect me to view the ibew? 

Now, let's be clear here before you tell me that you don't care what I think, I don't run down the union to our guys, we have had many guys leave over the years to join unionized shops, and we've helped as best we could to make the switch.


When reps or organizers call our guys ( and the guys have told us when thef are approached, on their own accord), either at home or on the site, they get frustrated when the guys don't jump to sign cards?! Even to the point of being abusive or negative. Claiming they're either "stupid" or "brainwashed" if they don't want to join. Heaven forbid that maybe a merit shop provide a decent job?? 

So how should these guys feel about the ibew

what damaged reputation right?????

No doubt there are some underhanded contractors put there, and they threaten my livelyhood every bit as much as yours. But I don't call for blood, I try to educate the contractor, safe business practice, recruitment and retention practices etc.


----------



## brian john

Thomps:


What I have seen over the years are some underhanded contractors (POS), some average contractors, some excellent contractors. This goes for union and merit shop.

Like everything there is a middle ground, a decent average work environment for labor and management. Some contractors do not realize this, but they do not take advantage of their workers instead they hire bottom of the rung electricians, guys that should have been plumbers. Then there are the rest of the merit shops that are in the majority in my opinion (just based on what I have seen), this is what SOME IBEW members fail to realize exist.

Those IBEW members that worked merit shop and whine cry and complain about the lousy open shop contractors they worked for maybe they were those bottom of the rung guys. I can say several members posting here (NOT ALL) have never posted in the electrical portion of this forum, and that says a lot in my opinion.


----------



## amptech

miller_elex said:


> Slickvic277,
> 
> I have to commend for your trying to reason with these folks.
> 
> Too bad it is a big waste of time. The only thing they will ever see the IBEW as, is a threat, their mind is not going to change.
> 
> What matters is that the IBEW represents the interests of people such as you and myself. I give the union, what, 3.5%?
> 
> Parishoners give the church 10%, not for help in this life, but the next.
> 
> My 3.5% pays off now, every paycheck, every doctor visit (haven't had one in eight years,) and when I retire. If the union wanted 10%, I might balk without a burden of proof. But in society such as today, give 10% away to the chuch, and it is called pious, no burden of proof from above required.


I don't understand the reference to church here. I don't see the connection between union dues and donating to church or any other charity. I know that they are both tax-deductible, but other than that what is the connection? You don't have to tithe to attend a church, it is purely voluntary. 
Donations to a church most likely have no effect on the "next life". They are supposed to go for costs incurred by the ministry of the church in this life. I would be just as careful which church I donated to and what they were spending it on as I would be any organization that collected dues.


----------



## Thomps

brian john said:


> Thomps:
> 
> 
> What I have seen over the years are some underhanded contractors (POS), some average contractors, some excellent contractors. This goes for union and merit shop.
> 
> Like everything there is a middle ground, a decent average work environment for labor and management. Some contractors do not realize this, but they do not take advantage of their workers instead they hire bottom of the rung electricians, guys that should have been plumbers. Then there are the rest of the merit shops that are in the majority in my opinion (just based on what I have seen), this is what SOME IBEW members fail to realize exist.
> 
> Those IBEW members that worked merit shop and whine cry and complain about the lousy open shop contractors they worked for maybe they were those bottom of the rung guys. I can say several members posting here (NOT ALL) have never posted in the electrical portion of this forum, and that says a lot in my opinion.



No doubt that there are a number of guys in our trade that may have missed their calling or attempt to coast through their job at the expense of everyone around them. But these guys are slowly becoming a dying breed. Employers can no longer afford to take chances on these guys and the trade demands will no longer tolerate them, organized or otherwise. And there are too many eager and driven people trying to get into the trade who deserve a chance. 

I am actually waiting to speak at a labour presentation on this subject as I type this (my thumb typing sucks)

our trade is changing, our customers demands our changing, the needs of our staff are changing, we as employers or representatives of labour can't expect to remain rooted to just right and wrong thinking and expect to keep up.


----------



## 480sparky

amptech said:


> I don't understand the reference to church here. I don't see the connection between union dues and donating to church or any other charity. I know that they are both tax-deductible, but other than that what is the connection? You don't have to tithe to attend a church, it is purely voluntary.
> Donations to a church most likely have no effect on the "next life". They are supposed to go for costs incurred by the ministry of the church in this life. I would be just as careful which church I donated to and what they were spending it on as I would be any organization that collected dues.


 
He's _'buying a stairway to heaven'_.

.....................-Led Zeppelin :laughing:


----------



## brian john

480sparky said:


> He's _'buying a stairway to heaven'_.
> 
> .....................-Led Zeppelin :laughing:


Or as an electrician maybe he is wiring an escalator to *HELL :devil:*


----------



## 480sparky

brian john said:


> Or as an electrician maybe he is wiring an escalator to *HELL :devil:*


Do you have to supply your own pitchfork there, or do you get one assigned to you along the river Styx?





















I wonder............ are Satans' minions unionized?


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## indiana contractor

*Here is the better deal*



Control Freak said:


> Explain to me how your employees would get a better deal?
> I am not saying you won't give them a better deal I am just curuious how.


Right now $36 on the check and another $18.19 in bennys.$6.64 of that is H/W. They have no eye or dental. The non barganing here have better coverage, "EYE DENTAL" the whole works for $1.06 per hour. The also have a matching 401 K.

Heres the offer. $40 on the check and same bennys the non bargaining have.
No more juridictional disputes. No more B.A. Let those who best work set their wage with the ownership. Cant do work without good well paid folks.
$36X 2080(40 hour week)= $74,880.00
$40X2080= $83,200.00

Current bennys $18.19 x 2080= $37,835.20

We provide $15,000 for 401 K and H/W at $1.06 per hour for non bargaining.

15000/2080= $7.21 + HW $1.06= $8.27X2080=$17,201.60 
Savings to company of $20,633.40
Raise to employee $8320.00

Simple right.


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> Right now $36 on the check and another $18.19 in bennys.$6.64 of that is H/W. They have no eye or dental. The non barganing here have better coverage, "EYE DENTAL" the whole works for $1.06 per hour. The also have a matching 401 K.
> 
> Heres the offer. $40 on the check and same bennys the non bargaining have.
> No more juridictional disputes. No more B.A. Let those who best work set their wage with the ownership. Cant do work without good well paid folks.
> $36X 2080(40 hour week)= $74,880.00
> $40X2080= $83,200.00
> 
> Current bennys $18.19 x 2080= $37,835.20
> 
> We provide $15,000 for 401 K and H/W at $1.06 per hour for non bargaining.
> 
> 15000/2080= $7.21 + HW $1.06= $8.27X2080=$17,201.60
> Savings to company of $20,633.40
> Raise to employee $8320.00
> 
> Simple right.


Ahh there ya go - company SAVES 20 grand, employee sees less than 1/2 of it.

But then, your employees are operating in an arena where if they look at you funny, they're gone. I'm sure THAT has nothing to do with your desire to go nonunion, right?


----------



## indiana contractor

This suggestion was brought to my office by current IBEW employees. I am an IBEW member myself and have been for 15 years. Locally we are all alittle honked off with the recent conviction of our esteemed BA whom stole $40+ thousand from our local and has no way to make restitution.

To answer you question directly,Yes the company saves money.Yes the employees make more. I cant fathom that being a problem for you. I promise you dont have to come see it work.


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> This suggestion was brought to my office by current IBEW employees. I am an IBEW member myself and have been for 15 years. Locally we are all alittle honked off with the recent conviction of our esteemed BA whom stole $40+ thousand from our local and has no way to make restitution.


Who voted that thief into office? And, barring restitution, what is the aggregate loss to you or any other member?



> To answer you question directly,Yes the company saves money.Yes the employees make more. I cant fathom that being a problem for you. I promise you dont have to come see it work.


So save a dollar and throw them a nickel, yea... that's the trend isn't it?


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## indiana contractor

The good news here is we as a group that work together are making this decision without influence from people who have opinions that none of us value. I am sure we will get this done and we will all prosper from its value.


----------



## Control Freak

Indiana Contaractor,

If you truly are doing this as a group with everyone having some say and are doing it for the benefet of all than that is a very kind gesture............

I am curious though as to why you are so hellbent on leaving the local? This question is born of curiousity not sarcasm so please just reply honestly!


----------



## indiana contractor

I have done alot of reading. I have sat in enough negotiations. I have had a real good inside look at what this union is really about. They no longer are concerned with their memberships well being. They are completely ate up with hardcore liberal politics,even when it does not serve the best interest of their membership. It is their only focus. I too once beleived. I have kept a flyer sent to me in 1999 that showed a picture of our hall boarded up with the statement "If Bush wins......we will all be out of work." Our local during those years boomed. Please no comments on Bush....Im no fan of his.Facts remain the same. I am sure that I admire the men that work here. They are like my family to me. I think they deserve better. Owners that dont respect their employees dont have them long, our crews remain unchanged year after year.


----------



## Control Freak

Good for you and your crew! Thanks for the honest (and civil) reply. I hope it works out well for you.


----------



## amptech

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ahh there ya go - company SAVES 20 grand, employee sees less than 1/2 of it.
> 
> But then, your employees are operating in an arena where if they look at you funny, they're gone. I'm sure THAT has nothing to do with your desire to go nonunion, right?


So you are saying that the true motivation of the union is not a fair days pay for a fair days work, but rather more of the company profits? Is the union focused on limiting the owner's profit margin? If labor got a 25% raise and a comparable increase in benefits would the union scream if the company increased profits by 50%. I want to be clear about what your point is here.
Increasing the financial "cushion" of the company usually translates to more/better equipment, training and tools. And don't try to tell me the owner will just buy a bigger or a second yacht. Those aren't tax deductible. Tools, equipment and training are and the tools and equipment retain equity which will some day come back to the owner's pocket either through eventual liquidation or sale of the company not to mention those things generate more income while in use.
If Indiana Contractor's workers are happy with the proposal, why would anyone else think they have a right to complain? When I was an employee I always wanted the company I was working for to make plenty of money. I wanted them to be there to have a place to work and to be a place for someone else to work after I have gone. One company I worked for made plenty of profit and conducted themselves very responsibly. Even in the toughest economic times, no one was laid off. You might be asked to paint, mop, plant shrubs or get sent to a Habitat for Humanity project to work but you got your paycheck every week. To this day, and the company has been in business since 1902 and now employs over 500 hourly workers, they have never had a lay-off.


----------



## indiana contractor

Amp, Lawn dude stated in an earlier post that "It takes money to make money" when I pointed out the massive amount of cash on hand at the International union. Its apparently ok for the union to make money though they produce nothing,have no risk, and sell nothing. He has drank all the IBEW kool-aid and doesnt want to know hes been scamed.I did the same for years. There is beuaty in truth....I hope he gets a dose of truth soon...if not, he can join the steel workers cheated out of their pension when the mill sold. Me and mine will continue to thrive due to the influence of respect and and damn hard work.


----------



## indiana contractor

Sorry bout the spell check failure.


----------



## LGLS

indiana contractor said:


> The good news here is we as a group that work together are making this decision without influence from people who have opinions that none of us value. I am sure we will get this done and we will all prosper from its value.



If that were true, you wouldn't have phrased your first post to this thread quite the way you did.


----------



## amptech

Indiana Contractor, check for a PM from me.


----------



## Frasbee

Still hate that I need to join _through_ the union, and not simply through a union company. I don't have high hopes for the Philly union, I'll probably have better chances non union or mcdonald's.


----------



## Thomps

Frasbee said:


> Still hate that I need to join _through_ the union, and not simply through a union company. I don't have high hopes for the Philly union, I'll probably have better chances non union or mcdonald's.



Sorry, but I don't understand. What is the difference?


----------



## brian john

Thomps said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand. What is the difference?


Mc Donald's sells burgers.:laughing:

Until LGLS unionizes them and they cannot compete IN A FREE MARKET.


----------



## Thomps

brian john said:


> Mc Donald's sells burgers.:laughing:
> 
> Until LGLS unionizes them and they cannot compete IN A FREE MARKET.


:whistling2:

sorry, I mean getting into the trade through the union vs through a union shop?


----------



## Frasbee

Thomps said:


> :whistling2:
> 
> sorry, I mean getting into the trade through the union vs through a union shop?


I can't apply to a union shop, I have to apply to the local.

Open shops have much larger pool of people to pick from, but it's a first come first serve basis, and that's assuming you can find them first. Seems kinda hard to compete for spots when there's a back log of guys already signed up and waiting on the bench.

That might explain why I've worked with so many union guys while they wait to get called back.


----------



## miller_elex

B.John categorized contractors in a hierarchy, and I have no complaint against 'excellent' contractors on either side of the fence.

Indiana Con. sounds like he is having jurisdictional issues with work happening in a neighboring local and all the burdensome rules. If your guys think leaving the IBEW is justified, they can make that vote.

Thomps says I have been reasonable before, but now I am much more inflammatory, and he does not deserve the angst. Well Thomps, you probably don't deserve it, and Indiana doesn't, B.John and Phat-E. do not, few more do not, but many here do, and some contractors who read-only and do not post on this forum definitely deserve to hear it. 

I am more inflammatory now because I am salting. I have been through it before and it gets ugly, anytime money is involved, things always get ugly. I don't go to work to make friends, but you can't help becoming friends with folks at work, and salting turns friends into enemies who want to eye-gouge each other.

Every union man should be grateful for LGLS. The man is vigilant, and militant, and if we were to all follow his example even to a small degree, it is progress.


----------



## Charlie K

Indianna Contractor, You say jurisdiction issues. Care to elaborate. We are signitory with many locals and sometimes get in a situation. Most locals will allow a few men. Have not had problems in years.

Charlie


----------



## sparky970

I'm glad we have a small local, about 300 members. We don't have all the B.S. that some of the larger locals do. Granted, there is some dead wood floating around, but 95% of our members are excellent electricians.


----------



## Chris21

Frasbee said:


> Yes.
> 
> I don't want to use Ryobi $hit.
> 
> I don't want to rush to the gang box in the morning to try to be the first to get the working tools.
> 
> Do you drive a Chevy because the government wants you to?
> 
> Do you ever construct anywhere besides your comfy job? Or do you worry that the carpenters union will picket your house for constructing a shed in your back yard?
> 
> The company can supply power tools as they please, just as I should be able to supply my own power tools as I please. EDIT: And since union companies are required to supply them anyway, who gives a $hit that I want to use my Bosch?



Osha: 
*1926.302(a)(1)*
Electric power operated tools shall either be of the approved double-insulated type or grounded in accordance with Subpart K of this part.


What if an electrician supplies his/her own power tool that is not compliant with OSHA rules. Said electrician injures himself or others. Who is liable? Does said electrician hide his power tool and claim he used the contractors tool or tell the truth? Maybe tool lists were made for more reasons than one would think. Contractors have a say in what goes on the tool list.


----------



## Advanced37

indiana contractor said:


> Now stop that independant thinking,your going to have to fill out a hurt feeling report.If you need one I can did one up outta our corn fields and send it. We dont have any big industry in northwest Indiana. We only build farm sheds. EG: U.S.Steel,Inland Steel, Mittal Steel. I HOPE to bid on the next Walmart Remodel when they CHANGE the store.


Now why on earth would you want to bid on a Walmart remodel? They have to be the absolute worst customer in the world....


----------



## 10492

Chris21 said:


> Osha:
> *1926.302(a)(1)*
> Electric power operated tools shall either be of the approved double-insulated type or grounded in accordance with Subpart K of this part.


 
Does anyone even make a non-double insulated one still?

I know of none, that are worth a crap.

Thought they went out many years ago.


----------



## Chris21

Dnkldorf said:


> Does anyone even make a non-double insulated one still?
> 
> I know of none, that are worth a crap.
> 
> Thought they went out many years ago.



Yes they did go out years ago... but if someone still has one and it still works who is to stop them from using it?


----------



## oldman

maybe there are just too many government regulations...period?


----------



## oldman

miller_elex said:


> Every union man should be grateful for LGLS. The man is vigilant, and militant, and if we were to all follow his example even to a small degree, it is progress.


even David Koresh was idolized by a few...


----------



## Frasbee

Chris21 said:


> Osha:
> *1926.302(a)(1)*
> Electric power operated tools shall either be of the approved double-insulated type or grounded in accordance with Subpart K of this part.
> 
> 
> What if an electrician supplies his/her own power tool that is not compliant with OSHA rules. Said electrician injures himself or others. Who is liable? Does said electrician hide his power tool and claim he used the contractors tool or tell the truth? Maybe tool lists were made for more reasons than one would think. Contractors have a say in what goes on the tool list.


I'm referring to my cordless system.


----------



## Charlie K

Frasbee said:


> I'm referring to my cordless system.


Let the contractor supply power tools. If they want the job done they will get the tools. Next thing he will want you to supply your own 300machine and tugger.

Charlie


----------



## oldman

Charlie K said:


> Let the contractor supply power tools. If they want the job done they will get the tools. Next thing he will want you to supply your own 300machine and tugger.
> 
> Charlie


I'd quote Rahm Emmanual here, but it would get the thread closed...

:laughing:


----------



## Frasbee

Charlie K said:


> Let the contractor supply power tools. If they want the job done they will get the tools. Next thing he will want you to supply your own 300machine and tugger.
> 
> Charlie


Wow, you're right! How did you know??


----------



## Charlie K

Frasbee said:


> Wow, you're right! How did you know??


 
What size ladders do they want you to have? Or did you just buy yourself a lift.

Charlie


----------



## Charlie K

oldman said:


> I'd quote Rahm Emmanual here, but it would get the thread closed...
> 
> :laughing:


Do you mean Rahm Emanuel?:whistling2::whistling2:

Charlie


----------



## oldman

Charlie K said:


> Do you mean Rahm Emanuel?:whistling2::whistling2:
> 
> Charlie


yeah, i got enough respect for the guy to almost spell his name right...


----------



## Charlie K

oldman said:


> yeah, i got enough respect for the guy to almost spell his name right...


:thumbup: Manual, Manwell, Manuel.:thumbup:

Charlie


----------



## Frasbee

Charlie K said:


> What size ladders do they want you to have? Or did you just buy yourself a lift.
> 
> Charlie


Don't be ridiculous.

I tie a 12' to the top of my VW Golf every morning.


----------



## LGLS

Dnkldorf said:


> Does anyone even make a non-double insulated one still?
> 
> I know of none, that are worth a crap.
> 
> Thought they went out many years ago.



I saw 2 in the last shop I salted. My grandfather had newer tools.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> even David Koresh was idolized by a few...



So was Jesus Christ.


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> Wow, you're right! How did you know??



History Frasbee. History. There was a time when an hourly wage earner broght nothing, then it went to small hand tools. Nowadays. Contractors require you supply a cordless drill... Which way do you think this trend is going? The IBEW draws a line at the tool list. If contractors want employees to supply the portabands and the tuggers, don't you think there is some recompensation due? Or do you just enjoy being shat upon?


----------



## miller_elex

He enjoys being shat upon, and told its a mud fight


----------



## LGLS

miller_elex said:


> He enjoys being shat upon, and told its a mud fight


I think what he enjoys is being held in higher regard because he brings a boatload of good tools that he owns... some people are just proud of the wrong thing.


----------



## Southeast Power

boulengerina said:


> I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!
> 
> PS... *Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself*.



Can we either get back to the OPs intention or close this thread?


----------



## Frasbee

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I think what he enjoys is being held in higher regard because he brings a boatload of good tools that he owns... some people are just proud of the wrong thing.


Well clearly, I'm cooler than you because of those tools.

You should see what I'm getting paid, I'm gonna single handedly bring you muthas down.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So was Jesus Christ.


i'm not a religious man, but if I were, I would be supremely offended that you are trying to compare yourself to Jesus Christ...


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> History Frasbee. History. There was a time when an hourly wage earner broght nothing, then it went to small hand tools. Nowadays. Contractors require you supply a cordless drill... Which way do you think this trend is going? The IBEW draws a line at the tool list. If contractors want employees to supply the portabands and the tuggers, don't you think there is some recompensation due? Or do you just enjoy being shat upon?


different world these days LG, people don't respect other peoples items like in the past....it's odd how many fewer tools people loose when they own them vs. someone else owning them...

we actually only require the locals tool list...some guys prefer to use their own cordless tools...and we provide everything with a cord...

but, if I had back all the tools that have been lost over the years, I wouldn't need to be in business...most of them lost when we were a union shop...somewhere out there, there is a union guy who can supply his own greenlee tugger...


----------



## 10492

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I saw 2 in the last shop I salted. My grandfather had newer tools.


 
That's only because salters steal tools, break equipment, and do substandard work on purpose.

You left your tools there, and took theirs.


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> B.John categorized contractors in a hierarchy, and I have no complaint against 'excellent' contractors on either side of the fence.
> 
> Indiana Con. sounds like he is having jurisdictional issues with work happening in a neighboring local and all the burdensome rules. If your guys think leaving the IBEW is justified, they can make that vote.
> 
> Thomps says I have been reasonable before, but now I am much more inflammatory, and he does not deserve the angst. Well Thomps, you probably don't deserve it, and Indiana doesn't, B.John and Phat-E. do not, few more do not, but many here do, and some contractors who read-only and do not post on this forum definitely deserve to hear it.
> 
> I am more inflammatory now because I am salting. I have been through it before and it gets ugly, anytime money is involved, things always get ugly. I don't go to work to make friends, but you can't help becoming friends with folks at work, and salting turns friends into enemies who want to eye-gouge each other.
> 
> Every union man should be grateful for LGLS. The man is vigilant, and militant, and if we were to all follow his example even to a small degree, it is progress.


 
I am not particularly concerned about your "agnst" directed at me or not. I have thicker skin than that.



What is concerning is the hypocrisy that is posted here almost none stop in regards to contracting/contractors. 

And salting is about as underhanded and deplorable as it gets.


----------



## Southeast Power

Originally Posted by *boulengerina*  
_I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!

PS... *Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself*._





jrannis said:


> Can we either get back to the OPs intention or close this thread?


----------



## Bob Badger

Posted at Holt's 



> Always a joy bumping into the union guys.  I met another one from the local yesterday. After talking a while, he trounces me up and down about being non-union then proceeds to tell me how the union INSTRUCTS their guys to memorize 5 questions and write them down as soon as they get back out to their vehicle after taking the test. Ha laughed and said they have seen ALL the questions. *THAT is the reason *(he said) that almost every guy comes out with at least a 95. How dis-heartening ... REALLY chaps my ass.
> (I am currently studying for journeymans - the good ol fashioned way).
> 
> Makes me want to either quit or call the State, or both.
> 
> I'm sure this thread threatens someone and they will probably shut it down. Maybe a few will see it first and learn some of the sad truth about this trade.


So keep trying to deny the IBEW has a poor reputaion.


----------



## LGLS

Frasbee said:


> Well clearly, I'm cooler than you because of those tools.
> 
> You should see what I'm getting paid, I'm gonna single handedly bring you muthas down.


Frasbee, I understand where you're coming from, really I do. There really is nothing worse than trying to accomplish something with the wrong tool, an undersized tool, or a broken or poorly maintained tool. Just realize not getting 100% possible production out of a very highly paid workforce is a lot more expensive than providing a few grand worth of tools, with enough to go around plus backups. 

Another major difference, you won't have to strap 150# of handtools to your waist either. Running conduit? There's probably a rack and all you need are 5 tools. Pulling wire? You'll probably be pulling wire for a month, you don't need the channellocks or the rule...


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> different world these days LG, people don't respect other peoples items like in the past....it's odd how many fewer tools people loose when they own them vs. someone else owning them...


The world is not all that much different today Oldman. Gypsies tramps & thieves have been around a lot longer than you or I or the electrical industry. And there is still honor among thieves, meaning, some would never steal someone else's personal tool but wouldn't think twice about stealing a contractor's tool. 



> we actually only require the locals tool list...some guys prefer to use their own cordless tools...and we provide everything with a cord...


Wonderful. But that's you, there are other contractors who don't even think they should provide cordless or corded tools. I know one who suffered the loss of a sawzall, a portaband, and a few cordless drills and swore it was an inside job, so he refused to retool the job. Made everyone cut and twist everything by hand. Until he saw the production numbers go down...



> but, if I had back all the tools that have been lost over the years, I wouldn't need to be in business...most of them lost when we were a union shop...somewhere out there, there is a union guy who can supply his own greenlee tugger...


...and he's probably the same guy that is doing arc-fusion fiber splicing on the side. 

A good way to prevent this is to use personal locker sized Knakk boxes, and fill each with every tool every man needs. So if a sawzall disappears, at least only one person is responsible. Otherwise, if you're gonna have one common gangbox for the sake of thrift, it has it downfalls you have to accept. (Unless you want to bog the foreman down with being a locker pup too.)


----------



## RIVETER

*Reputation*

On one of the power houses I worked the SUPER said that if I could keep the tools on the job and in the right hands for the duration of the job, he would buy every man an entire tool box and tools as the job ended. I couldn't and just told them to bring in their own tools. I have never understood THEFT. I'll have to add that a friend of mine was constantly being suspected of taking tools off the job. I defended him; I never saw him take anything. When the tornadoes of 1973 hit, he was severely HIT. When all the guys went to help him after the storm there was contractor's generators, benders, and the like strewn across southern Indiana,all on his property.


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The world is not all that much different today Oldman. Gypsies tramps & thieves have been around a lot longer than you or I or the electrical industry. And there is still honor among thieves, meaning, some would never steal someone else's personal tool but wouldn't think twice about stealing a contractor's tool.
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful. But that's you, there are other contractors who don't even think they should provide cordless or corded tools. I know one who suffered the loss of a sawzall, a portaband, and a few cordless drills and swore it was an inside job, so he refused to retool the job. Made everyone cut and twist everything by hand. Until he saw the production numbers go down...
> 
> 
> 
> ...and he's probably the same guy that is doing arc-fusion fiber splicing on the side.
> 
> A good way to prevent this is to use personal locker sized Knakk boxes, and fill each with every tool every man needs. So if a sawzall disappears, at least only one person is responsible. Otherwise, if you're gonna have one common gangbox for the sake of thrift, it has it downfalls you have to accept. (Unless you want to bog the foreman down with being a locker pup too.)


Ain't I paying more for labor so I don't have to treat them like kids?


----------



## LGLS

RIVETER said:


> On one of the power houses I worked the SUPER said that if I could keep the tools on the job and in the right hands for the duration of the job, he would buy every man an entire tool box and tools as the job ended. I couldn't and just told them to bring in their own tools. I have never understood THEFT. I'll have to add that a friend of mine was constantly being suspected of taking tools off the job. I defended him; I never saw him take anything. When the tornadoes of 1973 hit, he was severely HIT. When all the guys went to help him after the storm there was contractor's generators, benders, and the like strewn across southern Indiana,all on his property.


SOunds like a cleptomaniac, it's a disease and covered under the A.D.A.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> Ain't I paying more for labor so I don't have to treat them like kids?


No you're not paying more for labor, just the right amount. Anything less is underpaid, which I guess you agree with, as theft seems more palatable to you otherwise... :icon_wink:

BTW you're also paying for supervision, where is the supervision?


----------



## Charlie K

Dnkldorf said:


> Does anyone even make a non-double insulated one still?
> 
> I know of none, that are worth a crap.
> 
> Thought they went out many years ago.


Next time you plug in a Milwaukee Porta Band look at the plug then look at the nameplate where it says grounding reguired. Same goes for Milwaukees drills.


Charlie


----------



## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No you're not paying more for labor, just the right amount. Anything less is underpaid, which I guess you agree with, as theft seems more palatable to you otherwise... :icon_wink:
> 
> BTW you're also paying for supervision, where is the supervision?


supervising the project...forgot that I had to also hire security...


----------



## 10492

Charlie K said:


> Next time you plug in a Milwaukee Porta Band look at the plug then look at the nameplate where it says grounding reguired. Same goes for Milwaukees drills.
> 
> 
> Charlie


 
Are you saying 3 prong plug tools, aren't double insulated?

I have a pony threader, that I believe isn't double insulated, but I can't be sure.

I also have a tripod threader that I'm not sure of either.


----------



## Chris21

Dnkldorf said:


> Are you saying 3 prong plug tools, aren't double insulated?
> 
> I have a pony threader, that I believe isn't double insulated, but I can't be sure.
> 
> I also have a tripod threader that I'm not sure of either.


 From what I understand you cannot have a power tool that is both grounded and double insulated. A grounded tool has the exposed metal in the tool connected to the ground wire. A double insulated tool has exposed metal that is separated from anything that is live electrically. So it's either protected through double insulation or through grounding. Since you are already protected through double insulation why would you need to ground it?


----------



## Charlie K

Dnkldorf said:


> Are you saying 3 prong plug tools, aren't double insulated?
> 
> I have a pony threader, that I believe isn't double insulated, but I can't be sure.
> 
> I also have a tripod threader that I'm not sure of either.


Double insulated tools have a 2 wire polarized plug. Your porta pony most likely has a 3 wire plug. Mine do they are the larger of the ones by rigid. 300 machine has grounding plug, I am positive that the ground wire on 300 machine goes right to the frame. I recall changing the switch in one.

Charlie


----------



## Charlie K

Chris21 said:


> From what I understand you cannot have a power tool that is both grounded and double insulated. A grounded tool has the exposed metal in the tool connected to the ground wire. A double insulated tool has exposed metal that is separated from anything that is live electrically. So it's either protected through double insulation or through grounding. Since you are already protected through double insulation why would you need to ground it?


Chris, that is the way I understand it also.

Charlie


----------



## miller_elex

Thomps said:


> And salting is about as underhanded and deplorable as it gets.


I am shamelessly underhanded and deplorable. 

Still, I am nothing compared to a GC.


----------



## Control Freak

hey great idea with this forum....
Lets just ask a bunch of non-union guys who happen to post everyday in the union section how to improve something they have no interest in repairing..........
while we are at it lets just ask Alqaeda how to improve America!

btw..........
I would like to know in whose eyes does the IBEW have a bad reputation........surely not the owners of the 40-55 story towers in the city that we just built all over.

of course these guys don't like the local when they can pay there workers alot less and I can say with a high amount of certainty that the average electrician would leap at the chance to make better wages and get better health coverage and a pension........

but let me guess dinkledorf... pensions are for weaklings right? we can all just make a ton of money and save it up for retirement right? or is social security just enough?


----------



## Southeast Power

Bob Badger said:


> Posted at Holt's
> 
> 
> 
> So keep trying to deny the IBEW has a poor reputaion.


Bob,
I guess you never took a test prep class from Mike. lol


----------



## Southeast Power

Originally Posted by *boulengerina*  
_I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!

PS... *Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself*.

Can we please either stick to the OPs request or close this thread??
_


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> I am shamelessly underhanded and deplorable.
> 
> Still, I am nothing compared to a GC.




How sad for you. 

And you're problably right, you'll never be much compared to a GC. Certainly not as long as you foster this us vs them mentality when it comes to the contracting industry.

Labour relations progress despite attitudes like that, not as a result of them. But is a better relationship between contractors & labour really what you want?


----------



## Control Freak

jrannis said:


> Originally Posted by *boulengerina*
> _I am asking this question specifically to the Contractors that visit this forum. I concede that the IBEW has tarnished it's own reputation in the past, and am interested in taking steps as to correct this situation, at least locally. I want ALL of the gripes and issues! Dump them all here!_
> 
> _PS... *Please, this is not for the sake of argument. If you just want to stir the pot, go somewhere else. This is intended to be a mature and frank discussion of Union issues. If you can't handle the conversation, then please do not involve yourself*._
> 
> _Can we please either stick to the OPs request or close this thread??_


He asked for it. he wanted all the gripes.


----------



## miller_elex

Thomps said:


> But is a better relationship between contractors & labour really what you want?


Not a necessarily a better relationship, or worse,

what matters is MORE relationships. More contractual relationships between the local and contractors means less proposals bid at a lower cost per manhour.

Union shops cannot compete with the non-union on small and mid-sized commercial jobs, I am no dummy, not until those non-union shops are at full capacity. Sure, there is market recovery, but that is unrelated to my point. The more manhours bid at a higher average cost, the better for ALL electricians in that local, union or non.

When a non-union contractor is forced to either pay fines for illegal practices or sign-up, it is a win for union contractors and the local's hands. It is a cost of doing business. I am a cynic and so are you. 

I am not ashamed to be in this for me,mine,& all local electricians. The best contractors can do is to spin it as a political battle, which is unfortunate for the boneheads who believe it.


----------



## brian john

miller_elex said:


> Not a necessarily a better relationship, or worse,
> 
> what matters is MORE relationships. More contractual relationships between the local and contractors means less proposals bid at a lower cost per manhour.
> 
> Union shops cannot compete with the non-union on small and mid-sized commercial jobs, I am no dummy, not until those non-union shops are at full capacity. Sure, there is market recovery, but that is unrelated to my point. The more manhours bid at a higher average cost, the better for ALL electricians in that local, union or non.
> 
> When a non-union contractor is forced to either pay fines for illegal practices or sign-up, it is a win for union contractors and the local's hands. It is a cost of doing business. I am a cynic and so are you.
> 
> I am not ashamed to be in this for me,mine,& all local electricians. The best contractors can do is to spin it as a political battle, which is unfortunate for the boneheads who believe it.



Around here the union contractors bid on all size projects and get them in a competitive market. Seems soooo FAIR....


----------



## brian john

Thomps said:


> How sad for you.
> 
> And you're problably right, you'll never be much compared to a GC. Certainly not as long as you foster this us vs them mentality when it comes to the contracting industry.
> 
> Labour relations progress despite attitudes like that, not as a result of them. But is a better relationship between contractors & labour really what you want?


Typically and not meant as a cut but a fact the attitude of a piss poor electrician, can't carry the tools of a real electrician so he operates like a turd.

Now maybe I have miller wrong, but I have seen it so many times it is hard to imagine any different.


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> Not a necessarily a better relationship, or worse,
> 
> what matters is MORE relationships. More contractual relationships between the local and contractors means less proposals bid at a lower cost per manhour.
> 
> Union shops cannot compete with the non-union on small and mid-sized commercial jobs, I am no dummy, not until those non-union shops are at full capacity. Sure, there is market recovery, but that is unrelated to my point. The more manhours bid at a higher average cost, the better for ALL electricians in that local, union or non.
> 
> When a non-union contractor is forced to either pay fines for illegal practices or sign-up, it is a win for union contractors and the local's hands. It is a cost of doing business. I am a cynic and so are you.
> 
> I am not ashamed to be in this for me,mine,& all local electricians. The best contractors can do is to spin it as a political battle, which is unfortunate for the boneheads who believe it.



Not sure how can you accuse me of cyicism? I understand that have an inherent mistrust of the industry, but I do believe that there is a working relationship between labour and management. I just don't feel that the success of that relationship has to rely on a 3rd party organization. 


I am not following your final point re: political spin?


----------



## miller_elex

Thomps, I believe there is alot less at stake in Canada, than in the United States. Here, my local ensures every working man has quality health benefits for himself and his entire family, with some additional banking of the benefits for time off. 

That costs $7 a manhour more than a contractor that does not pay any benefits, and $4 more than one who does HealthNet.

Add to that the other $7 an hour that goes into the retirements. Find me a non-union contractor who pays more than half of that.

Ask me again how reasoning with non-union contractors as to why they should more than double their fringes will ever work?? 

Talk is a pretext to waste our time, as long as we just talk, you can pay your people less, bid jobs for less, get work up to and beyond capacity to perform.

That's right, reasoning will never work, and the non-union contractors ABC's IEC's will fight tooth&nail to keep the status quo in their balance.


----------



## Shado

Control Freak said:


> I would like to know in whose eyes does the IBEW have a bad reputation........surely not the owners of the 40-55 story towers in the city that we just built all over.
> 
> of course these guys don't like the local when they can pay there workers alot less *and I can say with a high amount of certainty that the average electrician would leap at the chance to make better wages and get better health coverage and a pension*........


Seems to me that the average electrician is COMPLETELY aware of the existance of the union.....must be a reason the quantity of them haven't leapt or knocked the doors down to get in......

So......uh........why aren't the halls flooded with and overtaken by these chaps....certainly union market share would have shot straight thru the roof during the building boom just a few short years ago...if that were the case....:no:

Must be some other reason......:thumbsup:


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> Thomps, I believe there is alot less at stake in Canada, than in the United States. Here, my local ensures every working man has quality health benefits for himself and his entire family, with some additional banking of the benefits for time off.
> 
> That costs $7 a manhour more than a contractor that does not pay any benefits, and $4 more than one who does HealthNet.
> 
> Add to that the other $7 an hour that goes into the retirements. Find me a non-union contractor who pays more than half of that.
> 
> Ask me again how reasoning with non-union contractors as to why they should more than double their fringes will ever work??
> 
> Talk is a pretext to waste our time, as long as we just talk, you can pay your people less, bid jobs for less, get work up to and beyond capacity to perform.
> 
> That's right, reasoning will never work, and the non-union contractors ABC's IEC's will fight tooth&nail to keep the status quo in their balance.




Wait, before it was "give us an employer who will listen" and now it is "talk is just wasting you time"

I beileve you, you're not interested in improving the trade, so long as you get what you think you deserve regardless of the cost?!

Maybe you're right, maybe reasoning with guys like you will never work. Maybe it's just a matter of picking your battles. Guys like you will come and go, but business will go on. 

Btw, I'm not interested in status qou, I plan on being around for a few more years yet and that won't be achieved by burrying my head in the sand.


----------



## Thomps

brian john said:


> Around here the union contractors bid on all size projects and get them in a competitive market. Seems soooo FAIR....


There are a lot of competative signatory shops around here that gave a healthy market share.


----------



## miller_elex

Unless the local organizes with an 'end-justifies-the-means' mentality, we are not upholding our obligation to the signatory contractors to level the playing field.

I am well aware of the local's symbiotic relationship with the signatory contractors.

If you want to have a craft-management relationship, then sign up, and we will have a good labor relations. Until then, there is no relationship, excluding an 'end-justifies-the-means' one.


----------



## LGLS

oldman said:


> supervising the project...forgot that I had to also hire security...



That's all you got? :jester:


----------



## Thomps

miller_elex said:


> Unless the local organizes with an 'end-justifies-the-means' mentality, we are not upholding our obligation to the signatory contractors to level the playing field.
> 
> I am well aware of the local's symbiotic relationship with the signatory contractors.
> 
> If you want to have a craft-management relationship, then sign up, and we will have a good labor relations. Until then, there is no relationship, excluding an 'end-justifies-the-means' one.


I already enjoy a solid relationship with our labour pool, and that is achieved without the intervention of another organization involving itself into thecday to day management of business. I have no intention of becoming a signatory contractor, as I don't see an economic advantage to it, I certainly have no moral obligation to sign up (as many would imply I do) and our employees don't want to, try as you might to ingnore that.


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## oldman

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's all you got? :jester:


i guess i'm slipping...what do you suggest?


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## oldman

sadly, miller, it's not just the hourly rate...it's the total hours...we can typically bid similar projects for about 10% fewer man hours open vs. union...maybe it's just us...but the numbers have been fairly accurate for 30 yrs...

so, add a higher hourly rate, with more labor hours, and well, you know where this is going...


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## 480sparky

Shado said:


> ..............Must be some other reason......:thumbsup:


 
Mebbe........... we're just all idiots?


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## Southeast Power

Control Freak said:


> He asked for it. he wanted all the gripes.


Around here the IBEW does not have a bad reputation. The non-union has a bit of a problem due to the politics of the Latin Builders Association.

All of our PW jobs are a healthy mix of both union and non-union electricians.

One huge benefit for national sized contractors coming into town for large projects has been the availability of a well trained work force via our hiring hall.
We do have three active books and even a fourth book that comes out every so often.
ECs come in, ramp up a job with labor, get the job done and leave town.
Wages are predictable, productivity is in direct proportion to the quality of the management and supervision, client gets the project, EC makes money, electricians have a job. All is good.
I just don't see a problem.


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## oldman

jrannis said:


> Around here the IBEW does not have a bad reputation. The non-union has a bit of a problem due to the politics of the Latin Builders Association.
> 
> All of our PW jobs are a healthy mix of both union and non-union electricians.
> 
> One huge benefit for national sized contractors coming into town for large projects has been the availability of a well trained work force via our hiring hall.
> We do have three active books and even a fourth book that comes out every so often.
> ECs come in, ramp up a job with labor, get the job done and leave town.
> Wages are predictable, productivity is in direct proportion to the quality of the management and supervision, client gets the project, EC makes money, electricians have a job. All is good.
> I just don't see a problem.


utopia...fantastic...


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## Southeast Power

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention,

Its 57 degrees and Sunny here this morning, maybe up to 75 today.

Surf temperature will be about 74 later today.

Beach will be perfect :thumbup:

How is the weather in your Utopia Old Man:laughing:


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## 480sparky

jrannis said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to mention,
> 
> Its 57 degrees and Sunny here this morning, maybe up to 75 today.
> 
> Surf temperature will be about 74 later today.
> 
> Beach will be perfect :thumbup:
> 
> How is the weather in your Utopia Old Man:laughing:


 
It will be like that here in 4 months......... by then, you'll be sweatin' your arse off and being carried out to sea by hurricanes.


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## Southeast Power

480sparky said:


> It will be like that here in 4 months......... by then, you'll be sweatin' your arse off and being carried out to sea by hurricanes.


In four months!!!!
By then,
Surf will be in the 80s
Place will explode with cold beer, bikinis and short skirts.  


Sweat is good, takes the strain off the kidneys.

Hurricanes = Work and lots of it :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

jrannis said:


> In four months!!!!
> By then,
> Surf will be in the 80s
> Place will explode with cold beer, bikinis and short skirts.
> 
> 
> Sweat is good, takes the strain off the kidneys.
> 
> Hurricanes = Work and lots of it :thumbsup:


We get cold beer, bikinis and short skirts here, too, ya know.

Plus, we have REAL food, not plants grown in sand and meat fed with cardboard. I'm talking veggies made in black dirt the way God made it. Corn-fed beef...... you can eat with a straw. You don't know what a cook-out is until you've had one here.

Oh, and the work that the hurricane gives you? What good is it when you're already 12 miles offshore taking your last breath before you slip below the waves? Here, the tornado at least takes you up and gives you a nice aerial view of it's path so you know exactly where to target your business. "Yep, Doc Johnson is gonna rebuild.... his place is gone. Alex Miller, he's gonna need a new service. And I'll need to stop by the old Reed place..........."


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## LGLS

jrannis said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to mention,
> 
> Its 57 degrees and Sunny here this morning, maybe up to 75 today.
> 
> Surf temperature will be about 74 later today.
> 
> Beach will be perfect :thumbup:
> 
> How is the weather in your Utopia Old Man:laughing:


You're just not gonna fight without a give up, are ya? :no:


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## oldman

Sometimes, you just have to walk before you can crawl.


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## Southeast Power

480sparky said:


> We get cold beer, bikinis and short skirts here, too, ya know.
> 
> Plus, we have REAL food, not plants grown in sand and meat fed with cardboard. I'm talking veggies made in black dirt the way God made it. Corn-fed beef...... you can eat with a straw. You don't know what a cook-out is until you've had one here.
> 
> Oh, and the work that the hurricane gives you? What good is it when you're already 12 miles offshore taking your last breath before you slip below the waves? Here, the tornado at least takes you up and gives you a nice aerial view of it's path so you know exactly where to target your business. "Yep, Doc Johnson is gonna rebuild.... his place is gone. Alex Miller, he's gonna need a new service. And I'll need to stop by the old Reed place..........."


I think we get that food delivered by truck.
I really do not like mushy cuts of meat.

12 miles off shore?? I guess you dont know much about hurricanes. lol

Corn-fed? Why do you want to bring your women into this>:laughing:


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## brian john

jrannis said:


> I think we get that food delivered by truck.
> I really do not like mushy cuts of meat.
> 
> 12 miles off shore?? I guess you dont know much about hurricanes. lol
> 
> Corn-fed? Why do you want to bring your women into this>:laughing:


 
You mis-read his post, you are 12 miles off shore treading water after a tidal surge MAYBE?


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## Southeast Power

brian john said:


> You mis-read his post, you are 12 miles off shore treading water after a tidal surge MAYBE?


I really didn't get his point. Maybe he drinks and posts


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## Charlie K

Frasbee said:


> Don't be ridiculous.
> 
> I tie a 12' to the top of my VW Golf every morning.


 
Check out the Swap and Sell. They have a tugger and threader for sale. Man wont the boss man smile when you roll in with that.

Charlie:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## miller_elex

Frasbee,

Just a suggestion, put some 6-mil visquine and rags down in the trunk before hauling that threader and oiler in your Jetta, yikes!


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## Charlie K

miller_elex said:


> Frasbee,
> 
> Just a suggestion, put some 6-mil visquine and rags down in the trunk before hauling that threader and oiler in your Jetta, yikes!


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Charlie


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## Frasbee

miller_elex said:


> Frasbee,
> 
> Just a suggestion, put some 6-mil visquine and rags down in the trunk before hauling that threader and oiler in your Jetta, yikes!


Pfft, I'm not gonna carry a pipe threader* in my car.

I drive a Golf, it's 2/3 a Jetta wagon, have to hitch a trailer instead...


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## Charlie K

Frasbee said:


> Pfft, I'm not gonna carry a pipe thread in my car.
> 
> I drive a Golf, it's 2/3 a Jetta wagon, have to hitch a trailer instead...


:thumbup::thumbup:

Charlie


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## indiana contractor

*To:* [email protected] 
*Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:54 PM
*Subject:* Pension 

Jaye,

I have some questions that pertain to pension benefits that I hope you can answer.

1. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to records pertaining to the contributions of other contractors? 

2. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to pension board meeting minutes?

3. As there is “liquidated damage” language in the collective bargaining agreement, what is the procedure to assure that all payments have been received by 4 P.M. on the 15th to NECA? I asked this question to Mr. Hook and was told that there is no need to time stamp anything unless it’s late. This is backwards in my opinion. How else can all contractors be assured that there is equity?

4. What is the current procedure, if any, whereby the local informs members that said member’s benefits are delinquent?

5. If a contractor is delinquent in paying benefits is a 72 hour notice a matter of discretion or mandatory. If it is discretionary, why is the word “shall” used in the agreement? Further, who is the party responsible for this decision?

6. I have received a letter dated November 4th from Legacy Professionals LLC regarding the scheduling of a pension audit. It is my understanding that these audits are random. What is the process by which this random selection occurs? Further, Legacy is specific as to what documents they wish to review. What interest would they have in IRS 1120/1120s? What is there interest in FICA and 941 tax reports?

7. Why is it not policy to audit contractors that have been or are delinquent to assure that they are in complete compliance? Does the inability to pay benefits on time and in full not rate a serious look at the business practices as they relate to something as important as the benefits?

If any the aforementioned records are available to me can you please forward them? If records are not can you please explain why? If there are procedural matters that must occur prior to this information being released, please let me know what they are and I will get started. If you are unable to answer any of the above can you be so kind and to direct me as to the proper person?

Thank you for your consideration


----------



## slickvic277

indiana contractor said:


> *To:* [email protected]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:54 PM
> *Subject:* Pension
> 
> Jaye,
> 
> I have some questions that pertain to pension benefits that I hope you can answer.
> 
> 1. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to records pertaining to the contributions of other contractors?
> 
> 2. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to pension board meeting minutes?
> 
> 3. As there is “liquidated damage” language in the collective bargaining agreement, what is the procedure to assure that all payments have been received by 4 P.M. on the 15th to NECA? I asked this question to Mr. Hook and was told that there is no need to time stamp anything unless it’s late. This is backwards in my opinion. How else can all contractors be assured that there is equity?
> 
> 4. What is the current procedure, if any, whereby the local informs members that said member’s benefits are delinquent?
> 
> 5. If a contractor is delinquent in paying benefits is a 72 hour notice a matter of discretion or mandatory. If it is discretionary, why is the word “shall” used in the agreement? Further, who is the party responsible for this decision?
> 
> 6. I have received a letter dated November 4th from Legacy Professionals LLC regarding the scheduling of a pension audit. It is my understanding that these audits are random. What is the process by which this random selection occurs? Further, Legacy is specific as to what documents they wish to review. What interest would they have in IRS 1120/1120s? What is there interest in FICA and 941 tax reports?
> 
> 7. Why is it not policy to audit contractors that have been or are delinquent to assure that they are in complete compliance? Does the inability to pay benefits on time and in full not rate a serious look at the business practices as they relate to something as important as the benefits?
> 
> If any the aforementioned records are available to me can you please forward them? If records are not can you please explain why? If there are procedural matters that must occur prior to this information being released, please let me know what they are and I will get started. If you are unable to answer any of the above can you be so kind and to direct me as to the proper person?
> 
> Thank you for your consideration


So,did you ever get an answer.


----------



## Southeast Power

indiana contractor said:


> *To:* [email protected]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:54 PM
> *Subject:* Pension
> 
> Jaye,
> 
> I have some questions that pertain to pension benefits that I hope you can answer.
> 
> 1. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to records pertaining to the contributions of other contractors?
> 
> 2. As a contributing contractor or as an IBEW member am I allowed access to pension board meeting minutes?
> 
> 3. As there is “liquidated damage” language in the collective bargaining agreement, what is the procedure to assure that all payments have been received by 4 P.M. on the 15th to NECA? I asked this question to Mr. Hook and was told that there is no need to time stamp anything unless it’s late. This is backwards in my opinion. How else can all contractors be assured that there is equity?
> 
> 4. What is the current procedure, if any, whereby the local informs members that said member’s benefits are delinquent?
> 
> 5. If a contractor is delinquent in paying benefits is a 72 hour notice a matter of discretion or mandatory. If it is discretionary, why is the word “shall” used in the agreement? Further, who is the party responsible for this decision?
> 
> 6. I have received a letter dated November 4th from Legacy Professionals LLC regarding the scheduling of a pension audit. It is my understanding that these audits are random. What is the process by which this random selection occurs? Further, Legacy is specific as to what documents they wish to review. What interest would they have in IRS 1120/1120s? What is there interest in FICA and 941 tax reports?
> 
> 7. Why is it not policy to audit contractors that have been or are delinquent to assure that they are in complete compliance? Does the inability to pay benefits on time and in full not rate a serious look at the business practices as they relate to something as important as the benefits?
> 
> If any the aforementioned records are available to me can you please forward them? If records are not can you please explain why? If there are procedural matters that must occur prior to this information being released, please let me know what they are and I will get started. If you are unable to answer any of the above can you be so kind and to direct me as to the proper person?
> 
> Thank you for your consideration


Expect to have an audit every five years, this is what they get paid to do.
They are looking for money that you may have paid a member in a separate check and not reported it in your payroll reports.

If you follow the rules you should not have any problems. If you did something naughty, expect to write a check.


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