# Getting a Non Union Apprenticeship



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Non union apprenticeships are tricky. 
Both you and the employer need to keep track of your hours, and type of work performed.
School costs are the next tricky issue. 
Staying after training is completed the next one. 
Non union will get you work experience but may not lead to a journeyman position. Go union if you can, no doubts about where you stand when finished. Some of the VA people will add to this.
Cowboy


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

*Cowboy*

Thanks for the response, but yeah the union does seem like the safer route. I would just have to relocate which isn’t an option right now. Hopefully I can find an employer who’s willing to help me log my hours.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Please fill in your location, so, we know where you are & your profile. Tnx


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

I live in Augusta County, VA. Do you mean change it on my profile? I don’t see where I can do that


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Thens said:


> I live in Augusta County, VA. Do you mean change it on my profile? I don’t see where I can do that


On a laptop or desktop computer go to User CP(top left on blue bar) & click on it. Profile is on left.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Thens said:


> Hey everyone, how’s it going. I’m new to the forum and will be new to the trade. I’m 23, my current job is a teacher (it’s just not for me) I live in Virginia, around the Staunton, Waynesboro area, so there’s not any union work close to where I live as far as I know. Because of this, I have some questions about going the non union route.
> 
> From what I’ve read, it seems the best thing to do is go around to electrical contractors and talk to them to try and get a job as a helper, which I’m completely fine with. My question is does it have to be an approved contractor by the va dpt. of labor or can I complete an apprenticeship under any master electrician as long as I get the hours and schooling? If it does have to be an approved contractor how will I know which ones are and which ones aren’t? I guess I just don’t want to get hired by some company and be a grunt for a year without getting any hours towards a journeyman card. Any advice will help as I’m brand new to this field and any type of construction job. I’ve done landscaping but that’s a lot different. One last thing, how hard do you think it will be for me to get a job with no experience? I really want to do this as a career just need some help getting started. Thanks for any input.


You have an advantage over most people just due to having an education.
Sorry, I have no idea how Virginia works but, Brian John, a member here would be an incredible resource for you. 
If I were a younger person, I would fight to get into the work he has access to.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I’d go to the state and find out how it works first. Get a firm grip on how many hours of on the job training is needed and how to properly document it in case your employer doesn’t, goes out of business, lays you off etc. You’ll also need to find out about the classroom hours that may come with this. Same deal, how many hours, and make sure those hours are documented. Ideally your employer will pay for those, at the least reimburses you upon successful completion of each year. It will likely bore you to death and you’ll just have to tough it out. Use the time to get to know others there and who they are working for. Might be other opportunities if yours isn’t what you want.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

Southeast Power said:


> Thens said:
> 
> 
> > You have an advantage over most people just due to having an education.
> ...


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

nrp3 said:


> I’d go to the state and find out how it works first. Get a firm grip on how many hours of on the job training is needed and how to properly document it in case your employer doesn’t, goes out of business, lays you off etc. You’ll also need to find out about the classroom hours that may come with this. Same deal, how many hours, and make sure those hours are documented. Ideally your employer will pay for those, at the least reimburses you upon successful completion of each year. It will likely bore you to death and you’ll just have to tough it out. Use the time to get to know others there and who they are working for. Might be other opportunities if yours isn’t what you want.


Yeah I looked on the state website, which is kind of vague. I need to call and talk to someone. I just want to make sure all my hours are valid. But thanks that’s good advice, try to make as many connections as I can.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Keeping proof of hours is critical. Pay stubs etc, look out for yourself. Call the state, speak with someone. The union thing is likely better structured, but many many of us have done fine non union too. You have to start somewhere. You can change later.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Please don't make this mistake.
You have a college degree and you are a teacher.
I wish I could welcome you to this trade. I cannot.

What you have right now blows this trade out of the water. Its one thing to not have a college degree and have nothing but a chance to work in this field. Union or not.

Give yourself some time to get over whatever is bugging you about teaching.
If you have a bachelors, which I am certain you must have to teach, why not take further education to enhance your position in the world you now exist in?

You are making a mistake.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

John Valdes said:


> Please don't make this mistake.
> You have a college degree and you are a teacher.
> I wish I could welcome you to this trade. I cannot.
> 
> ...


What do you think makes teaching a much better profession? I’m honestly curious and want to know your opinion since you know what it’s like being an electrician


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

You may have a better chance of going industrial and working for a company. They are willing to pay for the training as intelligent and willing to work electrical are hard to come by but they may not be willing to help with a jm card. If you plan to own a business later on this is defiantly not the way to go.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Thens said:


> What do you think makes teaching a much better profession? I’m honestly curious and want to know your opinion since you know what it’s like being an electrician


Most of us dont work in the AC. Most of us have injury's as its physically abusive doing this job. On a good note theirs not many people that can roll there eyes almost all the way back into there heads with out having to tilt there neck. It only hurts for the first few years working above your head after that you get use to it.


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## djvandebrake (Jul 30, 2018)

John Valdes said:


> Please don't make this mistake.
> You have a college degree and you are a teacher.
> I wish I could welcome you to this trade. I cannot.
> 
> ...


As a former teacher I have to say, I disagree. Different people have different ideas of what makes a satisfying job. I'm quite looking forward to getting into the electrician field despite already having a bachelor's - though mine might still be useful in the future (a business degree) if I become a contractor.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Several thoughts.

There is a local in Roanoke.
There are industrial plants sprinkled around the valley.
Many (most) of my employees come out of Front Royal, Winchester, and West VA and while that is way north of you like a 1-1/2 hour BUT in the long run relocating would be your best bet as the DC local is looking for apprentices. 

Apply now you would most likely be accepted next year starting around 23 an hour next year.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

brian john said:


> Several thoughts.
> 
> There is a local in Roanoke.
> There are industrial plants sprinkled around the valley.
> ...


Roanoke may be an option. DC I don’t think I could although it sounds very good. I researched it a good bit. But knowing VA it seems, you don’t think a non union is going to be a good option?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Thens said:


> Roanoke may be an option. DC I don’t think I could although it sounds very good. I researched it a good bit. But knowing VA it seems, you don’t think a non union is going to be a good option?


I worked Open Shop for 8 years and I received good training strictly OJT and self-taught and some independent classes no formal apprenticeship and I had my Journeyman's card in 2.5 years and several masters licenses in 4 years. BUT

Unless you are going to go in business Union is the way to go.

Better 

Wages
Retirement
Health Care

All important considerations especially since you are getting that now, giving that up and having to self-pay in an open shop which I am sure is the norm in your area.

Move to Front Royal, Strasburg, Winchester area. The apprenticeship school is in Manassas.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

Yeah it would be rough giving those things up. My wife and I have considered moving to North Carolina so I'll look into some of those locals as well. Thanks for the help.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Thens said:


> What do you think makes teaching a much better profession? I’m honestly curious and want to know your opinion since you know what it’s like being an electrician


I guess I'm looking at teaching from the outside in.
I see a professional atmosphere. I see decent pay. I see a clean working environment. I see the ability to build on what you already have. I see summers off. I see full medical, dental and vision insurance for you at little and maybe no cost. I see teachers still having knees and backs after decades. 
I could probably go on and on. Being an electrician for me was not really a hard thought out choice. I got an opportunity and took it.
I had no diploma from high school (had to back to night school when I had a full time job, a wife and a kid).
I had the opportunity to go to college like my sister. I did not take that opportunity. Today I wish I had.



djvandebrake said:


> As a former teacher I have to say, I disagree. Different people have different ideas of what makes a satisfying job. I'm quite looking forward to getting into the electrician field despite already having a bachelor's - though mine might still be useful in the future (a business degree) if I become a contractor.


Sometimes I wish you guys would just take the summer you get off and take a laborers job for the summer. I bet you would have very different feelings about this.
Starting out in the electrical field is no cake walk. Try digging ditches all summer long. Then come back and tell us how you like that.

You have an option to drop the shovel and go back to an air conditioned office. Not many guys here have that option.



Thens said:


> Yeah it would be rough giving those things up. My wife and I have considered moving to North Carolina so I'll look into some of those locals as well. Thanks for the help.


If you are considering NC for a union apprenticeship, good luck
Just the mention of unions in the south are grounds for termination in the eyes of many.
There used to be a guy here that was in NC and he was a union construction elect. He is the only one I have met here since 2007.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

I appreciate the input. Those are all reasons I wanted to become a teacher as well. It sounds very good on paper, and it is for some people, but I’ve just realized it’s not for me. I didn’t want to realize it because it does seem like such a good gig. It is for some people, but I have done manual labor over two summers while I was in college, landscaping, and I don’t mean just riding around on a zero turn. It was very hard work. I made a lot less money doing work that many people hate and I still liked the job better than teaching. If I ever needed to I could go back to teaching, but for me personally this type of hard work is what I enjoy. I know there will be hard things that come along with starting this new career but it’s worth it to me. The grass isn’t always greener, and I may find that out, but it feels right and I want to give it a shot.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Thens said:


> Yeah it would be rough giving those things up. My wife and I have considered moving to North Carolina so I'll look into some of those locals as well. Thanks for the help.


The further south you go the less power unions have which means generally limited membership.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I think North Carolina has the fewest union membership in the US.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Thens said:


> I appreciate the input. Those are all reasons I wanted to become a teacher as well. It sounds very good on paper, and it is for some people, but I’ve just realized it’s not for me. I didn’t want to realize it because it does seem like such a good gig. It is for some people, but I have done manual labor over two summers while I was in college, landscaping, and I don’t mean just riding around on a zero turn. It was very hard work. I made a lot less money doing work that many people hate and I still liked the job better than teaching. If I ever needed to I could go back to teaching, but for me personally this type of hard work is what I enjoy. I know there will be hard things that come along with starting this new career but it’s worth it to me. The grass isn’t always greener, and I may find that out, but it feels right and I want to give it a shot.


Do what you want. You asked for advice and you got it.



TGGT said:


> I think North Carolina has the fewest union membership in the US.


I would think SC would lead that list. NC is the most open minded state in the south east.
Heck, they even voted in a new Democratic governor. :smile:
SC will elect a Democrat when hell freezes over.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

John Valdes said:


> Do what you want. You asked for advice and you got it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my best Foghorn Leghorn imitation "Govnor McTaxster". :vs_laugh:


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

Thens said:


> I appreciate the input. Those are all reasons I wanted to become a teacher as well. It sounds very good on paper, and it is for some people, but I’ve just realized it’s not for me. I didn’t want to realize it because it does seem like such a good gig. It is for some people, but I have done manual labor over two summers while I was in college, landscaping, and I don’t mean just riding around on a zero turn. It was very hard work. I made a lot less money doing work that many people hate and I still liked the job better than teaching. If I ever needed to I could go back to teaching, but for me personally this type of hard work is what I enjoy. I know there will be hard things that come along with starting this new career but it’s worth it to me. The grass isn’t always greener, and I may find that out, but it feels right and I want to give it a shot.



If you're young and healthy, go for it. You can always go back later, to a teaching gig. Here in Missouri, teachers are some of the lowest paid. In shizt holes like East St. Louis, IL. sometimes pay roll checks bounce. We had a guy leave the East St. Louis schools to work here at the Airport. Before teaching, he worked out of local #309 or so of Belleville, IL. He slowly went broke, teaching, not wiring. Had huge school loans to pay off too. You can teach much later in life, however, not always the case with trades. It's a myth that *all* local and state government workers are paid well, with good health insurance and decent pension. Around town, private (mostly Catholic) schools pay even less.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Your young go for the trade. THEN use them skills and go back to teaching electrical classes and raise some great electricians.


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## Thens (Sep 18, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> Your young go for the trade. THEN use them skills and go back to teaching electrical classes and raise some great electricians.


Yes! That is the plan right now.


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## yonkanif06 (Dec 7, 2018)

Thens said:


> I appreciate the input. Those are all reasons I wanted to become a teacher as well. It sounds very good on paper, and it is for some people, but I’ve just realized it’s not for me. I didn’t want to realize it because it does seem like such a good gig. It is for some people, but I have done manual labor over two summers while I was in college, landscaping, and I don’t mean just riding around on a zero turn. It was very hard work. I made a lot less money doing work that many people hate and I still liked the job better than teaching. If I ever needed to I could go back to teaching, but for me personally this type of hard work is what I enjoy. I know there will be hard things that come along with starting this new career but it’s worth it to me. The grass isn’t always greener, and I may find that out, but it feels right and I want to give it a shot.


Just wanted to say this resonates strongly with me. I currently have an office job, my background is in Accounting and I'm 29 looking to get into this trade either through IEC or NTEJA here in TX (luckily I have family in the trade to help me out). You're right at one point you realize this is not for you and you want to find something different. And it may sound insane for some people; but for me personally I find manual labor more fulfilling than paper pushing.


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## nmblack (Aug 25, 2017)

i'm not very active here, but this topic resonates well with me. i have an english degree (i know, i know) and wanted to pursue journalism or teaching after i was through. i graduated from 1 medium-sized university with 700 people getting english degrees at the same time. i came to realize that i was only really qualified to work entry level office jobs and largely struck out trying to find that dream gig. 

a friend helped me get into an apprenticeship with the company he'd been working for and it has been the best decision i've ever made. i very occasionally will be on a job in building with people my age sitting in interesting offices with air conditioning and restrooms with running water and feel like i made a mistake, but it's always fleeting. i like to walk away from an installation on a job site and feel proud that i've taken part in something that is or will be important to an overall picture.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

nmblack said:


> a friend helped me get into an apprenticeship with the company he'd been working for and it has been the best decision i've ever made. *i very occasionally will be on a job in building with people my age sitting in interesting offices with air conditioning and restrooms with running water and feel like i made a mistake, but it's always fleeting.* i like to walk away from an installation on a job site and feel proud that i've taken part in something that is or will be important to an overall picture.


That's funny, we all feel the same way in the dead of winter when we are wet and freezing or in the heat of summer when we just lost 20 pounds in 10 minutes of sweating....


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

@brianjohn

I always enjoy your Union/Open Shop posts. Probably one of the most balanced guys when it comes to the argument.

There are pros and cons to both, and both can lead to very lucrative careers that are more importantly fulfilling. 

If you can't get one, then take the other and don't look back. Being successful and educating yourself isn't just about someone else teaching you, it is about you taking control and learning. 

My advice is to get a job, then keep looking.

I remember a boss saying something stupid to me once, I told him "I was looking for a job when I found this one", he stopped talking and laughed. 

Where you start isn't where you finish. Just get in the trade.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

yonkanif06 said:


> Just wanted to say this resonates strongly with me. I currently have an office job, my background is in Accounting and I'm 29 looking to get into this trade either through IEC or NTEJA here in TX (luckily I have family in the trade to help me out). You're right at one point you realize this is not for you and you want to find something different. And it may sound insane for some people; but for me personally I find manual labor more fulfilling than paper pushing.





nmblack said:


> i'm not very active here, but this topic resonates well with me. i have an english degree (i know, i know) and wanted to pursue journalism or teaching after i was through. i graduated from 1 medium-sized university with 700 people getting english degrees at the same time. i came to realize that i was only really qualified to work entry level office jobs and largely struck out trying to find that dream gig.
> 
> a friend helped me get into an apprenticeship with the company he'd been working for and it has been the best decision i've ever made. i very occasionally will be on a job in building with people my age sitting in interesting offices with air conditioning and restrooms with running water and feel like i made a mistake, but it's always fleeting. i like to walk away from an installation on a job site and feel proud that i've taken part in something that is or will be important to an overall picture.


Welcome to the forum. Both of you. Thank you for filling out your profiles.


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## yonkanif06 (Dec 7, 2018)

nmblack said:


> i'm not very active here, but this topic resonates well with me. i have an english degree (i know, i know) and wanted to pursue journalism or teaching after i was through. i graduated from 1 medium-sized university with 700 people getting english degrees at the same time. i came to realize that i was only really qualified to work entry level office jobs and largely struck out trying to find that dream gig.
> 
> a friend helped me get into an apprenticeship with the company he'd been working for and it has been the best decision i've ever made. i very occasionally will be on a job in building with people my age sitting in interesting offices with air conditioning and restrooms with running water and feel like i made a mistake, but it's always fleeting. i like to walk away from an installation on a job site and feel proud that i've taken part in something that is or will be important to an overall picture.




Reading your statement it makes me feel more reassured I’m making the right decision. About how long it take going from when you applied to when you started working?


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## nmblack (Aug 25, 2017)

yonkanif06 said:


> Reading your statement it makes me feel more reassured I’m making the right decision. About how long it take going from when you applied to when you started working?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the company i'm working for--which has about 400 field guys at a few locations in my state--is always trying to expand their roster. and because they figure green apprentices are people that can be fully built up from nothing to learn the correct and proper ways to do things, they're generally interested in hiring people with zero experience. i interviewed, got an offer letter, and started 2 weeks later. i took an initial pay cut, but my previous position was stagnant and i've made way more money the past two years than any of the entry level, degree-requiring jobs was offering to start. 

the work is truly not for everyone, and i've seen a lot of young apprentices fall short and either realize it themselves or not make it through their initial probationary period. if you show up, continuously learn and bank your new skills with the ability to recall them when needed, you'll do well and learn to love it. be an apprentice that can think a few steps ahead while working with a journeyman and they'll love you for it.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)




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