# pros and cons



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

So I was curious as to what are some pros and cons of me becoming a union contractor... my motivation is to be able to land bigger work and to be able to pull from a pool of workers when needed..any thoughts..?


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## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

Are you a contractor or employer now Kirk?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

How would you bill out at the rate per man with all of his benefits, for the type of work you do ?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Are there any former non union and now union contractors in your area you can contact and ask for their actual stories on how well that transition went for them? I only know one of them and he barely made it out alive after 4 or 5 yrs with the union. I am not trying to say it always goes like this , cause this question you pose is one I used to always consider myself but never acted on. 

It seems around here at least, that contractors who started out in the union and only became contractors while in the union, and became union contractors are the ones who do really well. Those are plentiful enough, but like I said, I only know one who made the leap into , after spending most of his career outside.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I really want to go after bigger fish..... It would be nice to have work that goes on for months and months instead of days


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

captkirk said:


> I really want to go after bigger fish..... It would be nice to have work that goes on for months and months instead of days


I work for a merit shop, most of our jobs are months to years. 

They just picked up a 6.9 million job, not sure how long it will go.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

BBQ said:


> I work for a merit shop, most of our jobs are months to years.
> 
> They just picked up a 6.9 million job, not sure how long it will go.


You guys hirring....???


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I work for a merit shop, most of our jobs are months to years.
> 
> They just picked up a 6.9 million job, not sure how long it will go.


It might last a few weeks....:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The largest one I was on was about 12 years ago, it was close to 20 million and lasted only about a year and a half. It was a huge distribution center in PA.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I can't answer your question. A couple of thoughts though. Besides the labor issue (which goes without saying that a labor pool of trained hands is a great plus), some other ingredients that go into the mix of a successful contractor:
- is the area you work in pro union
- is the percentage of union contracts in your financial realm >50%
- the state of the economy going up
- your local(s) have mostly qualified (as opposed to slugs)
- your local(s) treat contractors fairly (no major hanky panky and greased wheels).

if all the above are yes, it might be right for you.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Has the union prevented you from bidding jobs?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Pro - at will available work force already trained with rules for all parties with most payroll companies already set up to handle. Easier entre into prevailing wage bidding and jobs ( as you are prequalified ).

Con - generally more expensive labor and less loyal to the contractor than the hall.

Pro or Con...Since you are in NJ, you might actually be able to hire me...

As far as job size, I am on my third billion+ project in the last 10 years with many multi-million dollar projects in between. NJ has lots of opportunities for union contractors, however there are many very good union contractors to compete against.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I could care if it's union or not, the key term is _'big'_

I've been told by many a _'big contractor'_ to either go a min of 6-10 men w/ full time office help ,inclusive of PM's & Estimators , and expect to spend more phone than tool time, or don't bother at all


~CS~


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Are you completely off the tools, have a full time estimator, office staff/manager? I have an old NECA labor estimator/job cost file from 2007. It gives a view of how union contractors bid/where/how labor cost are determined. Do you know any union contractors that would take you to some meetings, introduce you to some of the different Local BM/BA's. Get a copy of a Local's CBA to see what all wage and benefits are currently. Not an easy decision, plus it could be one of no return. Unless you close up shop and your wife starts a new EC business.:jester:


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## big2bird (Oct 1, 2012)

rlc3854 said:


> Unless you close up shop and your wife starts a new EC business.:jester:


That's funny as hell right there.:laughing::laughing:


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

eejack said:


> Pro - at will available work force already trained with rules for all parties with most payroll companies already set up to handle. Easier entre into prevailing wage bidding and jobs ( as you are prequalified ).
> 
> Con - generally more expensive labor and less loyal to the contractor than the hall.
> 
> ...


I am on my 2nd billion dollar + project in last 5 years, and union


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I could care if it's union or not, the key term is _'big'_
> 
> I've been told by many a _'big contractor'_ to either go a min of 6-10 men w/ full time office help ,inclusive of PM's & Estimators , and expect to spend more phone *and NO tool time*, or don't bother at all
> 
> ...


fify


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Pro or Con...Since you are in NJ, you might actually be able to hire me...


:thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I've just seen too many phone GC's growing an azz the shape of their truck seats & dying young of stress to want to go in their direction......~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

eejack said:


> Pro - at will available work force already trained with rules for all parties with most payroll companies already set up to handle. Easier entre into prevailing wage bidding and jobs ( as you are prequalified ).
> 
> Con - generally more expensive labor and less loyal to the contractor than the hall.
> 
> ...


You should post some pictures of that stuff you're working on,I'll bet the guys would love it here.:thumbsup:


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## electro916 (Jan 16, 2009)

Try going after some bigger work now or get in as a commercial electrical sub for a GC. If you ever bid big work there will be an experience questionnaire, you have to prove you have completed several jobs of the same size. Also what is the largest dollar amount you can get bonded to? 

How will you make payroll and material purchases between payments on large jobs. Do you have open working capital loans?


Bigger work means bigger headaches.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

captkirk said:


> I really want to go after bigger fish..... It would be nice to have work that goes on for months and months instead of days


IMO you can have this... if you want to be a foreman or GF on a big union job that is constantly changing and adding stuff to a large site.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

360max said:


> I am on my 2nd billion dollar + project in last 5 years, and union


A billion dollars for the owner. Not for the EC.

When people rattle off a billion dollar and up number, that's hi-tech work. Hitech owners have to buy expensive things like tools and automated material handling. That takes up over half of the billion dollar price tag.

What irritated me, is how pipe-fighters mechanical contractors are booking three and four times the dollar amounts of work on the same jobs as electrical contractors.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

mr hands said:


> A billion dollars for the owner. Not for the EC.
> 
> When people rattle off a billion dollar and up number, that's hi-tech work. Hitech owners have to buy expensive things like tools and automated material handling. That takes up over half of the billion dollar price tag.
> 
> What irritated me, is how pipe-fighters mechanical contractors are booking three and four times the dollar amounts of work on the same jobs as electrical contractors.


I know what you mean. We just finished a 35, 000 dollar job for me. When we were done I learned the home automation guys contract was 59, 000 and he wasn't therr as long as me.......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I know what you mean. We just finished a 35, 000 dollar job for me. When we were done I learned the home automation guys contract was 59, 000 and he wasn't therr as long as me.......


This shows he is clearly more intelligent.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Yeah, 20/2 cable is just under a hundred bucks a 1000.

A home automation controller setup could be a grand for a contractor who has a factory rep.

Was all the lighting low voltage?

Scissor packers cost half as much as sparkies too.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> This shows he is clearly more intelligent.


Or he sold them a 19000 dollar projector??? Whatever dude.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

mr hands said:


> Scissor packers cost half as much as sparkies too.


 Yes, and complain 6x more.

Oh I can't do that! Its too hot, too wet, too dark, too high....all in all, just plain too hard.:laughing:


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## sparky402 (Oct 15, 2013)

lefleuron said:


> Yes, and complain 6x more. Oh I can't do that! Its too hot, too wet, too dark, too high....all in all, just plain too hard.:laughing:


I just did a house that the low volt guys charged a ton for their system so i said screw that im gettin at least what they got. And you are right about them complaining and never there and now its done they want me there with them.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

How big do you want to get? I do 1.5 to 1.9 m a year now. Have six guys. You need to have working capitol to tackle $$$,$$$.$$ projects. You might always expect to get paid every couple of weeks, but it doesn't always happen. I am friends with a BIG mechanical contractor. He's usually got at least 2 to 3 million tied up in receivables at any one time. A lot of it is 60 to 90 days old. I sweat having $150,000.00 out in the street. The day you can't make payroll and cover taxes, your out of business. You have to work your way up slowly. I had two partners and twenty some guys years ago. Too many headaches. Got rid of the partners and 15 guys. I make more now and less headaches with a small shop. Also have my pick of customers. Only thing I regret is having to turn some projects away that are too big to handle.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

captkirk said:


> So I was curious as to what are some pros and cons of me becoming a union contractor... my motivation is to be able to land bigger work and to be able to pull from a pool of workers when needed..any thoughts..?


Pro, You can flex your man power accordingly.


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## Gregdrose (Nov 17, 2013)

Why don't you try some public work to see if you like the larger jobs and your new role?
If I'm not mistaken as long as you pay prevailing wage you can take on the job.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

captkirk said:


> So I was curious as to what are some pros and cons of me becoming a union contractor... my motivation is to be able to land bigger work and to be able to pull from a pool of workers when needed..any thoughts..?


Find out where your local NECA chapter is and see what they can do for you.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

captkirk said:


> So I was curious as to what are some pros and cons of me becoming a union contractor... my motivation is to be able to land bigger work and to be able to pull from a pool of workers when needed..any thoughts..?


I sent you a PM.


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## doublejelectric (Jan 23, 2013)

If you do decide to go union. Make sure you request your shop to be code of excellence certified.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

You have to sign personally for benefits ....you could loose everything if you fail.
All you need is one developer to not pay you and your living on the streets.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Tonedeaf said:


> You have to sign personally for benefits ....you could loose everything if you fail.
> All you need is one developer to not pay you and your living on the streets.


Sorry, but wrong.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Sorry, but wrong.


How would you know??

Didn't you just say two posts ago that you were a scissor packer?

Most jw's would never copt to having even owned scissors let alone use them in the course of his duties.

At least be honest and forthright. About the dumbest thing a businessman can do is to get his manpower from a union hall. At least I won't lie about it. This is America, where self-interest reigns supreme. No contractor is dumb enough to believe the hall has his best interests at heart. To the contrary.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

mr hands said:


> How would you know??
> 
> Didn't you just say two posts ago that you were a scissor packer?
> 
> ...


 Scissor packers.:laughing:

As low on the totem as used toilet paper. About as useful also.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

mr hands said:


> How would you know??
> 
> Didn't you just say two posts ago that you were a scissor packer?
> 
> ...


I know cause I been around. No I'm not a scissor packer, I said I took a call at a data center. Finally, I know several successful union business men.


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## doublejelectric (Jan 23, 2013)

mr hands said:


> How would you know?? Didn't you just say two posts ago that you were a scissor packer? Most jw's would never copt to having even owned scissors let alone use them in the course of his duties. At least be honest and forthright. About the dumbest thing a businessman can do is to get his manpower from a union hall. At least I won't lie about it. This is America, where self-interest reigns supreme. No contractor is dumb enough to believe the hall has his best interests at heart. To the contrary.


Sorry, but you might wanna look at the numbers, rosedin and Cupertino electric are both union shop.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

doublejelectric said:


> Sorry, but you might wanna look at the numbers, rosedin and Cupertino electric are both union shop.


I good majority of those on that list are union.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

#6 is union henkels and mccoy...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MC Dean is not union.

Of the 28 I have worked as a sub contractor for 8 of them.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

doublejelectric said:


> Sorry, but you might wanna look at the numbers, rosedin and Cupertino electric are both union shop.


I would think most of the LARGE electrical contractors are union shops. Do you really think that the OP wants to be on that list or just be able to tackle some larger jobs than he is able to handle now?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EMCOR and E-J Electric are both union shops.

I have worked for three contractors on that list.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

mr hands said:


> How would you know??
> 
> Didn't you just say two posts ago that you were a scissor packer?
> 
> ...



Now you are just trolling:laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

eejack said:


> Now you are just trolling:laughing:


He's definitely tripping.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> He's definitely tripping.


 No he is just a union guy who is not completely brainwashed. That is an honest post.

If you deny that you are the one tripping and trolling


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> No he is just a union guy who is not completely brainwashed. That is an honest post.
> 
> If you deny that you are the one tripping and trolling


Nice try now go crawl in your hole.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Nice try now go crawl in your hole.


Lay off the kool aid

Every time someone doesn't agree or post something you union tolls don't like you get all insulting and asshurt


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Lay off the kool aid
> 
> Every time someone doesn't agree or post something you union tolls don't like you get all insulting and asshurt


I think people who say your drinking the kool aid are the ones actually drinking the kool aid. Like i said, go crawl in your hole troll boy.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I think people who say your drinking the kool aid are the ones actually drinking the kool aid. Like i said, go crawl in your hole troll boy.


:sleeping::sleeping:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)




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## walkerj (May 13, 2007)

MMR, Newton, and ISC are non-union. 

Notice those three trended downward from 2011-2012. 
I'd be willing to bet they made up for that this year.


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## 87Electric (Apr 2, 2011)

Some of the contractors on that list have outside lineman..Most be a ton of money made with the storm work.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I worked for three on that list.

Working for one now. Would never again work for the other two.

Employee owned contractors are what I believe do the best for the community in general. They keep the wealth where it belongs.


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