# Where in the code..



## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

Does it say that you can't extend an pre-existing two wire (H/N) circuit. I know you can re-feed but you can't extend. I've been told this by bosses and inspectors but where is it in the NEC? I looked everywhere and I can't find it.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Briancraig81 said:


> Does it say that you can't extend an pre-existing two wire (H/N) circuit. I know you can re-feed but you can't extend. I've been told this by bosses and inspectors but where is it in the NEC? I looked everywhere and I can't find it.


It does not say that in the NEC and is allowed as long as you follow the NEC

Read 406.4 and look in article 250 and 210 as well.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Briancraig81 said:


> Does it say that you can't extend an pre-existing two wire (H/N) circuit. I know you can re-feed but you can't extend. I've been told this by bosses and inspectors but where is it in the NEC? I looked everywhere and I can't find it.


The trick is in getting that annoying ground conductor out of the NM sheath.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You cannot extend a 2 wire nm circuit. If there is no ground then any new circuit must be grounded. I don't see how you can do that unless a ground is brought into the circuit. Look at 250.130(C)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> The trick is in getting that annoying ground conductor out of the NM sheath.


Or buy NM with no ground.

Yes, it is made.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Or buy NM with no ground.
> 
> Yes, it is made.


You still cannot extend it with 2 wire nm.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*G*



Dennis Alwon said:


> You still cannot extend it with 2 wire nm.


What if you put it on a gfci breaker ?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Cletis said:


> What if you put it on a gfci breaker ?


 So-- does that have a ground? If not then you cannot extend it, IMO


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm with Dennis. I find no allowance to GFCI protect the "extended" branch circuit to alleviate the need for an EGC.

Pete


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*ask*



Dennis Alwon said:


> So-- does that have a ground? If not then you cannot extend it, IMO


The only reason I ask this. I was just on phone with realtor where these hacks tapped off the old 12-2 1950's nm and added new 12-2 off it to ALL other kitchen items (micro, lights, counter rec.,dining room). I told them they have 2 options. Put a gfci breaker on it (makes it legal) but still not grounded or a good idea OR i'll run a new 12-3 to micro and countertop rec. making it all grounded and solving future tripping problems.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Cletis said:


> The only reason I ask this. I was just on phone with *realtor.*..


may I remind you of your earlier post...


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## MasterE (Dec 31, 2011)

Take a look at NEC 250.131 (c)Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or branch circuit extention. Also 406.3 (D)


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So-- does that have a ground? If not then you cannot extend it, IMO



If you used the exception and ran a separate ground wire. You install a grounded receptacle. You then add another receptacle fed from that one. Legal or not?


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Bulldog1 said:


> If you used the exception and ran a separate ground wire. You install a grounded receptacle. You then add another receptacle fed from that one. Legal or not?



Not in Massachusetts. separate ground conductor not allowed.
not sure about 'No where USA'


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## Bulldog1 (Oct 21, 2011)

leland said:


> Not in Massachusetts. separate ground conductor not allowed.
> not sure about 'No where USA'



We are allowed to use the exception in no where USA. :laughing:


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## handyandy (Jan 3, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You cannot extend a 2 wire nm circuit. If there is no ground then any new circuit must be grounded. I don't see how you can do that unless a ground is brought into the circuit. Look at 250.130(C)


Sure you can. It must be true. I saw them do it on Ask This Old House.:no:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Briancraig81 said:


> Does it say that you can't extend an pre-existing two wire (H/N) circuit. I know you can re-feed but you can't extend. I've been told this by bosses and inspectors but where is it in the NEC? I looked everywhere and I can't find it.


You can extend a pre-existing two wire circuit and be code complaint.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> You can extend a pre-existing two wire circuit and be code complaint.


Yes, but you have to use knob and tube.:thumbsup:

(See 394.10(1))

Or you can add an equipment grounding conductor to the circuit in accordance with 250.130(C).

Chris


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Yes, but you have to use knob and tube.:thumbsup:
> 
> (See 394.10(1))
> 
> ...


 
You stole by thunder, Chris,


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Roger123 said:


> You stole by thunder, Chris,


Sorry,

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Now isn't that ridiculous that they allow knob and tube but not 2 wire nm cable. I wonder if the intent here was for repair of K & T. I don't see how you can extend a circuit that would otherwise need a ground and use K & T.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Now isn't that ridiculous that they allow knob and tube but not 2 wire nm cable. I wonder if the intent here was for repair of K & T. I don't see how you can extend a circuit that would otherwise need a ground and use K & T.


I agree Dennis, but just for code fun, 394.10(1) does not need a ground.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Now isn't that ridiculous that they allow knob and tube but not 2 wire nm cable. I wonder if the intent here was for repair of K & T. I don't see how you can extend a circuit that would otherwise need a ground and use K & T.


According to 394.10(1) uses permitted, Knob and Tube can be used for extensions of existing installations.

Since all existing knob and tube installations are ungrounded 2 wire systems it seems to me that this section would allow an ungrounded circuit extension using K&T.

Now try to find tubes to comply with 394.17.:thumbsup:

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> According to 394.10(1) uses permitted, Knob and Tube can be used for extensions of existing installations.
> 
> Since all existing knob and tube installations are ungrounded 2 wire systems it seems to me that this section would allow an ungrounded circuit extension using K&T.
> 
> ...


My point is why not allow 3 wire nm and cut the ground-- seems better than K&T. And if they allow K&T to be extended why not ungrounded 2 wire nm circuits


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> I agree Dennis, but just for code fun, 394.10(1) does not need a ground.


I see that- I am trying to understand the rationale.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> My point is why not allow 3 wire nm and cut the ground-- seems better than K&T. And if they allow K&T to be extended why not ungrounded 2 wire nm circuits


I understand where you are coming from, but I just can't see the CMP allowing someone to just cut off the ground wire in NM cable when extending a 2 wire circuit.

Chris


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

raider1 said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but I just can't see the CMP allowing someone to just cut off the ground wire in NM cable when extending a 2 wire circuit.
> 
> Chris


Well they do make 12/2 without ground. I am just surprised they allow K&T to be extended. I can understand patching it but not extending it. I would love to know the low down on that thinking.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Read 406.4 (d)(2) b....you can put a gfic in there and label no ground. stickers are in the box for this app.:thumbsup: but you can't extend that circuit...


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

394.10(1)(2) makes this as clear as mud...I had this conversation a while ago as well..I just don't get this section at all..it seems ok to extend k&t is ok if the AHJ says its ok...or not..wtf..then we should gfi it too??:001_huh:


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Well guys just to cause some fun here, I don't see where 250.130 does not allow any two wire extension. I do not read it to say you can't extend any two wire circuit. It give permitted ways to connect an EGC to a two wire circuit, but does not prohibit extending a circuit without an EGC.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> Well guys just to cause some fun here, I don't see where 250.130 does not allow any two wire extension. I do not read it to say you can't extend any two wire circuit. It give permitted ways to connect an EGC to a two wire circuit, but does not prohibit extending a circuit without an EGC.


I agree. 250.130(C) does not say that you can't extend a two-wire circuit. Although, starting with part VI of article 250, you would probably be hard pressed to find many things that don't require a connection to an EGC. So, IMHO, if you extend that two-wire circuit most everything that would connect to it is required to also connect to an EGC and 250.130(C) gives you the methods by which the EGC can be introduced to the formerly ungrounded circuit.

Pete


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

I also agree Pete, just playing with the code tonight. Although, I seen many K&T Circuits extended mostly in basements with NM Cable. Usually to add a new receptacle(s) or light(s).


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Roger you are correct but I also agree with Pete-- and I have seen where you can extend a grounded circuit with a non grounded nm cable. I have seen this on central vac jacks. Their system is 2 wire and the jacks come with a 14/2 nm - no ground attached to a molded type plug.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

The 250.130 (c) method though compliant I always thought looked hacky..and I don't use it..I just gfic it and label as no ground..IMO it looks better...but if ya want to pull x feet of say #14 and put a clamp on something..hey whatever..parts and labor gfi vs method 2 coin flip? I think gfi would be cheaper...IMHO:thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Unfuzz me here fellas....

I'm reading 406.4(D)(2)(a) & 406.4(D)(2)(b), as well as 406.4(D)(4)(3)

extending from the load side of a gfci receptacle, 12/2 w/ground, but _not_ using the ground , to two wire TP (good luck finding those) marker _no eqipment ground_, and _gfci protected_

as well as an afci circuit breaker (effective date ?) 

complaint?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> I also agree Pete, just playing with the code tonight.


 
you'll go blind doin' that!

~CS~


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> you'll go blind doin' that!
> 
> ~CS~


CS is telling the truth... my glasses are as thick as the bottom of a coke bottle.

Pete


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Unfuzz me here fellas....
> 
> I'm reading 406.4(D)(2)(a) & 406.4(D)(2)(b), as well as 406.4(D)(4)(3)
> 
> ...


The rules in Article 406 only apply to replacement of non-grounding receptacles and does not address circuit extensions. 

Chris


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

CS...like I said in post 29..as clear as mud....demi-gods of the good book seem to not want to shxx or get off the pot on the k&t issue(s)...I will not extend if it is encountured..I slam a gfic in cir...dead end it and let well enough alone...to many age and condition issues looming with it..I rather the let the CC and ginger make me fuzzy:thumbup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> I agree. 250.130(C) does not say that you can't extend a two-wire circuit. Although, starting with part VI of article 250, you would probably be hard pressed to find many things that don't require a connection to an EGC. So, IMHO, if you extend that two-wire circuit most everything that would connect to it is required to also connect to an EGC and 250.130(C) gives you the methods by which the EGC can be introduced to the formerly ungrounded circuit.
> 
> Pete


HB Exhibit 250.53 'Branch circuit extention' to an existing installation per 250.130(C) 
_{informational note, see 406.4(D)}_

~CS~


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. From what I've read I've come to the conclusion that what I've always been told was right, you can't extend a non-ground circuit. From what I'm understanding though is, if you can bring in an EGC or run one from a cold water ground or even ground rod (Don't have the code refrence infront of me), the you can extend a non-EGC circuit, correct?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Briancraig81 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. From what I've read I've come to the conclusion that what I've always been told was right, you can't extend a non-ground circuit. From what I'm understanding though is, if you can bring in an EGC or run one from a cold water ground or even ground rod (Don't have the code refrence infront of me), the you can extend a non-EGC circuit, correct?


Correct.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

2nd that.....(do we have a quorum?)~CS~


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

count me in..you can do it...but I will refrain from that practice..


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Briancraig81 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. From what I've read I've come to the conclusion that what I've always been told was right, you can't extend a non-ground circuit. From what I'm understanding though is, if you can bring in an EGC or run one from a cold water ground or even ground rod (Don't have the code refrence infront of me), the you can extend a non-EGC circuit, correct?


Let me clarify-- you can connect to any point on the gec or any point on the grounding electrode system. If you use the water pipe then it must be within 5 feet of where it enters the building otherwise attach it to the gec itself.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

kinda the same as a xformer Denny?

~CS~


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If you use the water pipe then it must be within 5 feet of where it enters the building otherwise attach it to the gec itself.


250.130(c)(1) says: any accessible point on the G.EC. as described in 250.50..."any accessible point" could very well mean anywhere on the cold water line, not just within 5 feet of the entrance to the structure, no?


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