# Panel/Breaker manufacturer mismatch



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

NJMike said:


> Hi all,
> 
> OK, whenever I see breakers that don't match the brand name on the panel, AND they are not listed on the door sticker as compatible, I call it out and recommend they get an electrician to verify compatibility, or replace the breaker, as needed.
> 
> ...


I would note the breaker as not listed for the panel. As a HI, I would not start giving suggestions on how to fix it.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Home inspectors mark them all the time. "Have a licensed electrician evaluate suitability" is the usual verbiage, or something similar.

I either change the breaker or send them a manufactures cross reference.

Learn the more common ones, like Challenger/Cutler Hammer/Eaton is all the same thing and cross each other. There's a few posts around about what works and what doesn't.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Also, if you've got a dozen things for electrical, it's no big deal to have an EC check it. If I were the seller and that was the ONLY electrical item, I'd be annoyed, especially if I paid an EC to check if it was a cutler hammer in an eaton panel!


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

NJMike said:


> Hi all,
> 
> OK, whenever I see breakers that don't match the brand name on the panel, AND they are not listed on the door sticker as compatible, I call it out and recommend they get an electrician to verify compatibility, or replace the breaker, as needed.
> 
> ...


I think you're doing the right thing.

Note it, recommend they have an electrician take a look, that's it.
At this point your job is done.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

take note that there are classified breakers that could be made from different manufacturers that could legally go in that panel


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Mike, one of the reasons you will find a lot of hate for Home Inspectors is because they constantly overstep their bounds. A HI is supposed to make the customer aware of _possible_ problems. They are not supposed to scare the customer. They are not supposed to say that there definitely is a problem. They are not supposed to offer solutions. 

Remember the breaker thread asking about 2 wires on one breaker? You know how many times I have read an inspection report which sternly said that it is *wrong* to do this, then went on to say that *it has to be fixed* and then gave a paragraph talking about how dangerous it is (generic electrical danger). Now we all know this is BS. 

Instead, the Home Inspector should say that it "may" be a problem and a professional should be brought in to check it to make sure that it is safe. A lot different right?

Back to this thread, just mention that the mismatched breakers may not be compliant in the panel and a professional should be consulted. It will make you look less like a fraud when the electrician comes in and says that the breaker was classified for the panel and perfectly safe and legal like dr spec said above.


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm all for stopping at telling them there *might* be a problem and have an electrician look at it...I'm just trying to avoid calling people in over stuff that should be simple and obvious. Like for example the "double taps".... if I see the sticker saying it's ok then I'm better off NOT using that to recommend the call-in....there will likely be something else anyway. And for the breaker mismatch....if the sticker on the panel door says it's ok then again, I'm not calling it out. 

So for example the Eaton / Cutler Hammer thing Matt above mentions.... is there a list of those somewhere?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

NJMike said:


> I'm all for stopping at telling them there *might* be a problem and have an electrician look at it...I'm just trying to avoid calling people in over stuff that should be simple and obvious. Like for example the "double taps".... if I see the sticker saying it's ok then I'm better off NOT using that to recommend the call-in....there will likely be something else anyway. And for the breaker mismatch....if the sticker on the panel door says it's ok then again, I'm not calling it out.
> 
> *So for example the Eaton / Cutler Hammer thing Matt above mentions.... is there a list of those somewhere?*


Eaton owners Cutler Hammer.

Take pictures, put it in the report. As an electrician I ask for the report to be emailed to me and I review it before going out to give the estimate. If the only thing is a mismatched breaker, I will tell them over the phone my service call fee to fix it and won't bother going to look at it.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Challenger had Br breakers. Next came Westinghouse making BR breakers. Then Cutler Hammer bought the line and they made BR breakers. Eaton owns the brand now.


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## cl2sparky (Jan 3, 2017)

Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


:no:


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


are you even an electrician?


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## cl2sparky (Jan 3, 2017)

drspec said:


> are you even an electrician?


37 years. Do your research. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cl2sparky said:


> 37 years. Do your research.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Be nice.

You made a statement, please back it up.



cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


First, Siemens breakers can't be used in ANY panel for the simple reason that they won't even fit into many panels due to different size and design.

Second, Siemens owns Murray, the breakers are exactly the same except for a sticker, but you still can't use a Siemens breaker in a Murray panel since they are not listed for it.

But I am going to give you a chance to substantiate your outrageous claim, and hopefully in researching it you will find out how wrong your statement is.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

cl2sparky said:


> 37 years. Do your research.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


sounds like youve been wrong for 37 years

show me your proof. Ill wait.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Be nice.
> 
> You made a statement, please back it up.
> 
> ...


Im sure youve used a Murray breaker in a Siemens panel and vice versa


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drspec said:


> Im sure youve used a Murray breaker in a Siemens panel and vice versa


I've done lots and lots of things that aren't code compliant.


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## cl2sparky (Jan 3, 2017)

Ok. I guess you know it all. I don't, but I know what I know. Call your supply house that handles Siemens and ask them. Of course the wont fit every single panel, but they will fit(QP) CH BR, Homeline, GE and some of the older panels that aren't manufactured any longer. They bought out ITE. Murray was an aquisition in a fuallty business deal. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

cl2sparky said:


> Ok. I guess you know it all. I don't, but I know what I know. Call your supply house that handles Siemens and ask them. Of course the wont fit every single panel, but they will fit(QP) CH BR, Homeline, GE and some of the older panels that aren't manufactured any longer. They bought out ITE. Murray was an aquisition in a fuallty business deal.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


LOL yeah counter monkeys have all the knowledge

just because a breaker fits doesnt make it listed


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.





cl2sparky said:


> 37 years.





cl2sparky said:


> I know what I know.


You know sh1t.

What you are doing is irresponsible. This forum is viewed by a lot of people and some of those people may think you have a clue what you are talking about. But following your advice will cause them to fail inspection and cost them money, you are fu*king with people's livelihoods.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Siemens in a SqD QO panel ?

I don't think so.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.


It's common practice for manufacturers to pursue _listings_ toward usage in their competitions panels.

If one keeps digging, the _warranty _most manufacturers include is void incorporating them.

Further investigation will reveal they are all manufactured via _mutual_ 3rd world sweat shops , or just take a hammer to a few to find the major difference(s) often come down to the _label_....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> Siemens in a SqD QO panel ?
> 
> I don't think so.



Competitive Cross Reference

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

UL Classified Circuit Breaker Replacement Chart

redit> just carry the classifieds , drives the HI"s nuts!....:thumbup:~CS~:thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> telsa said:
> 
> 
> > Siemens in a SqD QO panel ?
> ...


I guess you're just trying to obfuscate the discussion as usual? No where in your link does it say that a Siemens breaker could be used in a Square D QO panel.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Toilet paper rip again this morning Hax? ~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Toilet paper rip again this morning Hax? ~CS~


Once again you folded instead of answering for your indiscretion.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

just want to state that a classified breaker can NOT be used in ANY panel the breaker fits

there are certain panels that they are UL listed for and you need to check the spec guides and paperwork to make sure it is listed for that particular panel

not saying you would ever fail an inspection or have an issue but you need to do your own research instead of saying, if it fits it ships


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## NJMike (Dec 11, 2016)

That's a good idea, I'll make sure there's always a big photo of the panel box. If I call out something that turns out to be a non-issue, maybe the electrician will be able to tell from the photo sometimes.

Another reason to use a real camera instead of the phone....


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Really ??

Do you have a link for that ?? 


Just becarefull on this part.,, just think for a second .,,

if you put a genraic fit all breaker in non listed panel .,, who is on the hook ? that part the insurance company will go over this with fine toothed comb.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Challenger had Br breakers. Next came Westinghouse making BR breakers. Then Cutler Hammer bought the line and they made BR breakers. Eaton owns the brand now.


You forgot the whole reason they are "BR" breakers. I believe Bryant started making BR breakers. Challenger and Sylvania breakers are usually a type "C" which are not listed for use in a panel that only accepts "BR" 
Yes, I know they are exactly the same except the labeling, but so are siemens and murray. Cutler hammer and Eaton branded breakers are listed as both "C" and "BR"


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cl2sparky has been here multiple times since his BS post was outed yesterday. I guess he is going to pull a chicken steve and not be man enough to admit he was wrong and posted irresponsible and possibly dangerous information.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I hate to get involved but the Square D Homeline in any other panel drives me nuts. THEY DO NOT FIT.
 
The photo is a Homeline on the left and Siemens on the right. Note the "foot" that holds and centers the breaker in the panel. The Homeline slot is off center and smaller than the Siemens (and other commons 1" breakers) . If you jam a Homeline in another panel they lock in tilted, the bus contact points then do not have even pressure. This can cause a hot spot and ruin the bus. 
Other breakers in a Homeline panel will not lock in centered. They flop around.
If you really want another reason to not mix brands of breaker do a selective coordination study.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Eaton and Siemens both make a UL classified replacement for SQ D QO.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...t-breakers/qd-breakers/pages/qd-breakers.aspx


http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/sa00304001e.pdf

Personally I see no reason to use them, would rather have the SQ D breaker w/ the Visi-Trip® feature, which the UL classified versions do not have.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

cl2sparky said:


> Also note: Siemens are listed for use in ANY panel.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


OMG, please post this information.
Doesn't matter what panel,

I should be confident that a Siemens breaker will work
Is this what you are saying?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ELECTRICK2 said:


> OMG, please post this information.
> Doesn't matter what panel,
> 
> I should be confident that a Siemens breaker will work
> Is this what you are saying?


He is a little sissy girl who still comes to the forum every day but won't post because he is too small to admit he is wrong.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

Norcal said:


> Eaton and Siemens both make a UL classified replacement for SQ D QO.
> 
> http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...t-breakers/qd-breakers/pages/qd-breakers.aspx
> 
> ...


That's not what he said.
He said a Siemens breaker works in any panel
He didn't say what Siemens breaker.
And no breaker works in every panel.

A little knowledge can be scary


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> sign.
> 
> Second, Siemens owns Murray, the breakers are exactly the same except for a sticker, but you still can't use a Siemens breaker in a Murray panel since they are not listed for it.


I do it anyway.

But I think that issue is moot now since Siemens finally cross-listed Siemens and Murray breakers for interchangeablity between both lines.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I do it anyway.
> 
> But I think that issue is moot now since Siemens finally cross-listed Siemens and Murray breakers for interchangeablity between both lines.


I do it too except for the few times I get inspections.

Show me documentation of this cross listing stuff.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I do it too except for the few times I get inspections.
> 
> Show me documentation of this cross listing stuff.


Couldn't find it on Siemens site. I remember seeing it on one of those information cards at HD next to the Murray panels. It was printed by Siemens.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Couldn't find it on Siemens site. I remember seeing it on one of those information cards at HD next to the Murray panels. It was printed by Siemens.


That won't help with an inspector who points to the panel label that says QT breakers only.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That won't help with an inspector who points to the panel label that says QT breakers only.


Right, now I remember that it only applies for panels made after the approval. The listing label in the panel would show the dual rating. It doesn't apply retroactively, so you're still stuck with using the appropriate one if an inspection is involved.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I'll look at the label on the next Siemens panel I buy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have only stocked SIEMEns. Readers on my truck even though a lot of houses around here us Murray and I sometimes use Murray for new panels. Siemens breakers are usually cheaper at my supply house, especially tandems.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I have only stocked SIEMEns. Readers on my truck even though a lot of houses around here us Murray and I sometimes use Murray for new panels. Siemens breakers are usually cheaper at my supply house, especially tandems.


I'm going to upgrade to a 200 amp, is Siemens generally preferred? I don't do enough residential to take notice.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

TGGT said:


> I'm going to upgrade to a 200 amp, is Siemens generally preferred? I don't do enough residential to take notice.


I like Siemens. Honestly, I would feel just as safe with any major panel brand.

Some people like Square D QO or Cutler Hammer CH, I feel it's a waste of money.

Siemens has the cheaper ES model line and then the PL line which has extra ground bars and a copper bus bar.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Every major brand and line is readily available near me. That being said, Homeline and BR are by far the most popular now. CH-CH is extremely rare. QO used to be very popular for resi in the 80's and 90's but has also become rare due to its high cost and bad design. 

I like Murray and GE myself but I'll use whatever.


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