# Bathroom gfci’s



## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I think we’ve done 10 bathrooms In the last 30 days! Not one of them had a 12/2 at the GFCI but rather a 14/2...

What a nightmare ! Was this ever allowed ? 


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks you'd have to go back a _good _1/2 century to find the NEC w/o and/or evolving towards dedicated circuitry WronGun.....~CS~


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Well most were newer white nm 14/2


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

then someone 'effed up......:vs_mad:~CS~:vs_mad:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I run 15A circuits to the bathroom all the time when not pulling a permit.

A 20A circuit to the bathroom is a design thing, not a safety thing. The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, yet it lies throughout the entire book. So I am not going to follow it.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

You must of been working in Canada. 14/2 all day.

Tim.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

canbug said:


> You must of been working in Canada. 14/2 all day.
> 
> Tim.


It's funny how things work in Canada but not in the US.

Plumbing is like that too. A stall shower *will* flood in the US if you only use 1.5" drain pipe for it, there is no doubt about it. Everyone will tell you that you have to use 2" or else it will flood because code says so. But in Canada 1.5" works just fine.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's funny how things work in Canada but not in the US.
> 
> Plumbing is like that too. A stall shower *will* flood in the US if you only use 1.5" drain pipe for it, there is no doubt about it. Everyone will tell you that you have to use 2" or else it will flood because code says so. But in Canada 1.5" works just fine.


I need to run 2" because I drill out the showerhead and get water as it is meant to be.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I suppose it depends on code cycle. I can't remember when it was still ok to install #14 to bathroom receptacles. Powder rooms or first floor baths without showers/tubs etc, I'm not too worried about, may tag them off other upstairs bath receptacles if they aren't too elaborate. Large master baths, I prefer having a dedicated home run to. Hair dryers, curlers, water pik, electric tooth brush etc. Similar to kitchen counters. I don't see it as a bad thing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I need to run 2" because I drill out the showerhead and get water as it is meant to be.


So do I. But my Kohler cast iron receptor which has a very shallow pan has never had a problem draining with a 1.5" pipe.

Let's get back to the bathroom GFCI...

90% of the houses here are old and the bathroom outlet is on a 15A circuit that is shared with many other rooms in the house, sometimes even the kitchen counter. So a 15A dedicated circuit is plenty.


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## canbug (Dec 31, 2015)

We're getting closer to the twentieth century, 2" drains are code now.

Tim.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

All it takes to trip a 15 amp receptacle outlet circuit in a bathroom is 1.5 hair dryers going on at the same time, usually 7:00 am or thereabouts, for those of us lucky enough to have raised plural daughters. I doubt it ever led to an actual fire starting up ever though. Yelling and whining yes. Teenage angst?
Yes, plenty of that. But actual fire? Nope.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

I have 2 teenage daughters. I walked into the bathroom last week and there was:
1 blow dryer
1 hair straightener
2 hair curling irons
all plugged in and in use at the same time. A 15 amp breaker would have tripped long ago.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

btharmy2 said:


> I have 2 teenage daughters. I walked into the bathroom last week and there was:
> 1 blow dryer
> 1 hair straightener
> 2 hair curling irons
> all plugged in and in use at the same time. A 15 amp breaker would have tripped long ago.


I'm calling the cops. You shouldn't be barging into the bathroom when your daughters are in there. Are you Japanese?


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## Drsparky14 (Oct 22, 2016)

Most old houses have a 15am to the light in the bathroom the outlet and an outside outlet off that GFCI. I see this far more often than I wish I did


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

btharmy2 said:


> I have 2 teenage daughters. I walked into the bathroom last week and there was:
> 1 blow dryer
> 1 hair straightener
> 2 hair curling irons
> all plugged in and in use at the same time. A 15 amp breaker would have tripped long ago.


With what you listed, so would a 20A. 

That's it, the NEC should require 4 20A circuits for each bathroom.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The natural progression I see in bathrooms goes like this:

No outlet at all.
Then they installed a light with a 2-prong outlet built into it.
Then they installed a switch/outlet combo in the switch location.
Then they installed a switch/GFCI combo in the switch box, usually due to a CofO inspection requiring it during the sale of the house.
Then they cut in a GFCI outlet by the sink, powered off of the light or nearby circuit.

Very rarely do I see dedicated 20A circuit in anything but a newer house.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Don't give them any ideas.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It's funny how things work in Canada but not in the US.
> 
> Plumbing is like that too. A stall shower *will* flood in the US if you only use 1.5" drain pipe for it, there is no doubt about it. Everyone will tell you that you have to use 2" or else it will flood because code says so. But in Canada 1.5" works just fine.


Not only is 14 awg ok in Canada, it does not need to be a dedicated circuit. :vs_laugh:


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

btharmy2 said:


> I have 2 teenage daughters. I walked into the bathroom last week and there was:
> 1 blow dryer
> 1 hair straightener
> 2 hair curling irons
> all plugged in and in use at the same time. A 15 amp breaker would have tripped long ago.


So... at least one of them was both straightening and curling her hair at the same time? Seems silly. 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Nowadays I see one of those *makeup putting on stations* (I forget the correct word) in master bedrooms and the daughter's bedrooms. That's where a lot of these girls use their hairdryer, curling iron, straightening irons, etc.

Dennis, put in a proposal for dedicated 20A circuits for each bedroom outlet.


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## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

The fact that bathrooms are part of the general lighting load but are required to be 20 amp says a lot. It's a requirement because of convenience IMO.

I also strongly feel that if you have so much junk plugged into a 15 that it trips you'll probably trip a 20 too.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Well most were newer white nm 14/2



Define "newer". The NEC changed in 1993 to require 20 amp circuits in bathrooms, and there's always a 2+ year delay in adoption, with some states a full 3 or more years behind adopting. So that means the practice of 15 amp circuits in bathrooms continued well past the code change. The wire looking "newer" doesn't really tell us much. Can you see a date code on it? 

Case in point - my friends bought a house in California that was built in 1998 with a 15 amp circuit daisy chained to all the bathroom because at the time CA was still under the 1993 NEC.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

btharmy2 said:


> I have 2 teenage daughters. I walked into the bathroom last week and there was:
> .


_oh?_ you had an_ appointment _then .....?:vs_cool:~CS~:biggrin:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

It was common practice for decades for all the bathroom, garage and outdoor outlets to be on a single 15 amp circuit protected by one GFCI in the panel, under the panel or in the garage. There are countless millions of houses wired this way. Prior to that it was as Hax said - one 15 amp circuit that served multiple rooms. I lived in a 1985 house that had a 15 amp circuit that served two bathrooms. It was above code at the time and it never caused a problem, ever.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I run 15A circuits to the bathroom all the time when not pulling a permit.
> 
> A 20A circuit to the bathroom is a design thing, not a safety thing. The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, yet it lies throughout the entire book. So I am not going to follow it.


Same thing with laundry circuits. If you have an electric dryer, there is no need at all to have a separate 20 amp circuit for the washer. A 15 amp circuit is fine.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> The natural progression I see in bathrooms goes like this:
> 
> No outlet at all.
> Then they installed a light with a 2-prong outlet built into it.
> ...


Same here, my bathroom outlet that I added somehow got tapped off the bedroom circuit. :whistling2: It's never been a problem, but then again I don't use a hairdryer and there's no woman in my life.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

WronGun said:


> Well most were newer white nm 14/2
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are they Ryan Homes built?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, yet it lies throughout the entire book. So I am not going to follow it.




It actually states that, then goes on dictating design....


~CS~:vs_whistle:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> It actually states that, then goes on dictating design....
> 
> 
> ~CS~:vs_whistle:


Hi Steve.

Since you are replying to my posts now, can you reply to the 34 posts in which I asked you which 12 panel manufacturers you contacted about the GEC and what their replies were? Thanks.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

WronGun said:


> I think we’ve done 10 bathrooms In the last 30 days! Not one of them had a 12/2 at the GFCI but rather a 14/2...
> 
> What a nightmare ! Was this ever allowed ?
> 
> ...


Yes, it was allowed at one point.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

While we're on the subject, what is the Canadian code for bathroom receptacles? No dedicated circuit required? Can it just come from any general use circuit?


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

As far as I can tell the 20 amp circuit for the bathroom was first required in the 1999 NEC.


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## Steve. (Jan 20, 2018)

I always pull a 20 amp dedicated circuit primarily for two reasons.
1) Cost difference between 14/2 and 12/2, to me is minimal
2) Its the code

I only run the 12/2 to the receptacles in that one bathroom though, lights are 14/2 shared with the lighting of the room next to the bathroom.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Same here, my bathroom outlet that I added somehow got tapped off the bedroom circuit. :whistling2: It's never been a problem, but then again I don't use a hairdryer and there's no woman in my life.


That's the problem , there is no woman in your life. Get one. They ain't all bad unless she is divorcing you , in which case they are all bad......


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> While we're on the subject, what is the Canadian code for bathroom receptacles? No dedicated circuit required? Can it just come from any general use circuit?


Yep. Not dedicated. Only 15 amp. And a general use circuit can have up to twelve outlets ( lights or plugs) on it.

Must be GFI protected.

It does not have to be Arc fault protected though.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> Same here, my bathroom outlet that I added somehow got tapped off the bedroom circuit. :whistling2: It's never been a problem, but then again I don't use a hairdryer and there's no woman in my life.


I can understand that.


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

chicken steve said:


> _oh?_ you had an_ appointment _then .....?:vs_cool:~CS~:biggrin:


At times I need an appointment. We only have one shower/tub. :crying:


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## btharmy2 (Mar 11, 2017)

B-Nabs said:


> So... at least one of them was both straightening and curling her hair at the same time? Seems silly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Silly? That's nothing. Have you ever spent time living in a house with 3 women? Silly doesn't even begin to describe it.:vs_laugh:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That’s the situation in my house. The only guy in the house including the dog.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eddy current said:


> Yep. Not dedicated. Only 15 amp. And a general use circuit can have up to twelve outlets ( lights or plugs) on it.


I'm sure most homes burn down on a regular basis due to this horrific practice.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. Not dedicated. Only 15 amp. And a general use circuit can have up to twelve outlets ( lights or plugs) on it.
> ...


The ladies learn to do their hair somewhere else!!! Lol

Bathrooms in new homes end up on dedicated circuits now because of the new arc fault codes. Or the bathroom receptacles are on a shared circuit with the lights as they are the only things left on the upper floors that also don’t have to be arc fault protected.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eddy current said:


> The ladies learn to do their hair somewhere else!!! Lol
> 
> Bathrooms in new homes end up on dedicated circuits now because of the new arc fault codes. Or the bathroom receptacles are on a shared circuit with the lights as they are the only things left on the upper floors that also don’t have to be arc fault protected.



If you run a dedicated circuit in a new home, is it still 15 amps? Or are you now adopting our practice of 20 amp circuits in the bathroom?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> That's the problem , there is no woman in your life. Get one.


Thanks Mikey.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> If you run a dedicated circuit in a new home, is it still 15 amps? Or are you now adopting our practice of 20 amp circuits in the bathroom?


Only 15 amp circuit required. Of course in a custom build you see all kinds of good practice but in the track built homes, they are wired to minimum standards.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Which i _don't_ wire to, nor will most whom take a lick of _pride_ in this trade

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Which i _don't_ wire to, nor will most whom take a lick of _pride_ in this trade
> 
> ~CS~


There's a place for minimum standards, just like there is a place for going above and beyond. A "one size fits all" approach is stupid. There is a job for every budget.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Then we'll send all the_ lowballers_ your way Pete.....

your welcome!

:vs_cool:

~CS~


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I run 15A circuits to the bathroom all the time when not pulling a permit.
> 
> A 20A circuit to the bathroom is a design thing, not a safety thing. The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, yet it lies throughout the entire book. So I am not going to follow it.




I thought it was a code thing to follow ! Oops 

I ran a 20A already , but the customer wants 2 Receptacle in The bathroom ! Does this mean I’ll need another circuit ? 

New construction I would pull a 12/2 

But some of these older homes that are getting bath remodels have minimal ways to get a new circuit from the far garage panel to the 2nd or 3rd Floor 

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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

210.10 (C)(3) ex allows for 



> other equipment within the same bathroom


assuming a_ dedicated_ run WronGun

which is WHY most of us do just that

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I run 15A circuits to the bathroom all the time when not pulling a permit.
> 
> A 20A circuit to the bathroom is a design thing, not a safety thing. The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, *yet it lies throughout the entire book.* So I am not going to follow it.


*^^^* way to post in a pro forum Hax.....
:vs_whistle::vs_whistle::vs_whistle:
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

WronGun said:


> But some of these older homes that are getting bath remodels have minimal ways to get a new circuit from the far garage panel to the 2nd or 3rd Floor


Those reno's are a PITA. 

It's always a matter of how much 'existing' stays *vs.* updates 

~CS~


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Those reno's are a PITA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes , 

I’m learning to look at everything now during estimate process. I never bothered to open up Receptacle boxes to see what size wire/breaker was used 


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Which i _don't_ wire to, nor will most whom take a lick of _pride_ in this trade
> 
> ~CS~


Has nothing to do with pride. If you were an EC that did new track housing, you don’t have a choice but to wire to minimum code because you would not have any work otherwise.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Which i _don't_ wire to, nor will most whom take a lick of _pride_ in this trade
> 
> ~CS~


Someone who takes pride in this trade wouldn't knowingly post wrong code information and then refuse to answer for it like a little child.

That person wouldn't say that he contacted dozens of manufacturers asking them a question, and then refuse to tell anyone what they answered with.

Someone who had any pride at all wouldn't act like you do. You are an embarrassment to the trade and us all.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > I run 15A circuits to the bathroom all the time when not pulling a permit.
> ...


Funny, you have already replied to that same exact post of mine saying the opposite thing a few days ago: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f29/bathroom-gfci-s-243922/index2/#post4712770



chicken steve said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > The NEC specifically says it is not a design manual, yet it lies throughout the entire book.
> ...


I guess you were just too drunk to remember, huh??


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